Old Bailey Proceedings Online (www.oldbaileyonline.org, version 8.0, 04 October 2023), February 1902, trial of THOMAS PETERSON GOUDIE RICHARD BURGE (35) (t19020210-198).

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THOMAS PETERSON GOUDIE, RICHARD BURGE, Deception > fraud, 10th February 1902.

198. THOMAS PETERSON GOUDIE was again indicted with RICHARD BURGE (35) , for conspiring to obtain and obtaining divers sums of money from the Bank of Liverpool, with intent to defraud, to which

GOUDIE PLEADED GUILTY .

MR. C. F. GILL, K.C., MR. C. W. MATHEWS, and MR. G. CAMPBELL prosecuted—MR. SMITH and MR. HEMMERDE appeared for Goudie, MR. HORACE AVORY, K.C., and MR. BIRON for Burge, MR. RUFUS ISAACS and MR. LAMBERT for Kelly, MR. MARSHALL HALL and MR. MOYSES for Stiles.

NORRIS WOOLGAR . I live at 3, St. Stephen's Court, Bayswater—I was employed in Lawrence A. Marks' office at 3, Adelphi Terrace—it was one room—during the time he occupied the office he lived at the Adelphi Hotel—I went into his service at the beginning of October, it may have been September—a separate business was carried on—I was clerk in the betting business—the ordinary books of a betting business were kept, a debit and credit book, a day book, and a betting book—during the earlier part of my time there I entered the transactions as they occurred from day to day—they varied a great deal—the average sum put on a horse was £1—there were smaller bets of 2s. 6d., 5s., 10s., and so on—that went on till last October—Burge first came about the beginning of October, it may have been earlier—I had been there about six weeks—it may have been the beginning of September—a man named Mances began to come about the same time—Marks told me they were authorized to open telegrams that came to the office—they came regularly about one o'clock each day, just before racing commenced—I gave them the telegrams, which they opened—some were returned to the entering clerk, some were retained—I kept the accounts which were opened between Marks and his customers—I never entered any bets in the name of Scott—these are the books (Produced)—Scott's name is not to be found in them—there was also this file for telegrams—there is no telegram purporting to come from a customer named Scott—I wrote at Marks' dictation this telegram, "To Scott, Bureau, 15, North John Street, Liverpool, Commissions executed, Marks"—that was the only one I wrote to Scott—I last saw Mances at the office on Friday, November 22nd—I knew Mances was living at the Charing Cross Hotel, and Marks at the Adelphi Hotel—Marks' telegraphic address was "Gargled, London"—The original of this photograph is the man I knew as Mances—Marks was at business on November 2nd to 5th—I did not know of these telegrams: "369, Strand, B.O., 2/11/01. To Scott, Bureau, 15, North, John Street, Liverpool. I am doing no business to-day, I will arrange for next week, so you are not on, Marks;" "West Strand, B.O., 5/11/01. To Scott, Bureau, &c," "Cheque received with thanks, have received no wires from you this week, neglect of clerk to post letter, Marks;" and "369, Strand, 5/11/01. To Scott," &c, "Clerk's neglect, having mislaid wires, so you have no bet, we are the losers, if horses had won should have had to pay, Marks"—I never heard of any clerk's neglect, there was none that I was aware of—I was

not, I think, given any letters to post for Scott—I knew nothing of this telegram in the name of Scott to put £20,000 on Sansome, nor of these telegrams to Scott of Nov. 11th: "Not doing anything to-day, Mr. Marks sick," or "Mr. Marks is very sick, I cannot do business without him," sent at 1.35 and 2.27 p.m. in Mances' writing; nor of these: "369, Strand, B.O., 11/11/01," sent 9 55, "To Scott," &c., "Cheque received, will not be able to execute any commissions for a day or two, L. Marks taken suddenly ill, he will try and write you, Gargled;" or "West Strand, B.O., 12/11/01, sent 10.54, "To Scott," &c., "Mr. Marks will be able to do business to-morrow or next day, he is very sorry for you, he could not help it, Gargled."—Sansome did win at Leicester that first day, starting at 5 to 2—I know Marks' writing—I looked at those telegrams before the Magistrate—they are not Marks' writing—The bets ranged from 2s. 6d. to £25—Marks had a book of rules for his customers—this is a copy—Rule 5 refers to bets up to £5 up to starting time of race, and with regard to larger sums, that must become the subject of special arrangement between Marks and his customers—the office generally opened about 11 am., when I got there—I was not there by the first post to receive registered letters.

Cross-examined by MR. AVORY. Marks was there every day, but not at the same time, and sometimes not till 4 p.m.—he was in very bad health even before Burge and Mances came to the office—Marks opened the telegrams if he was there—I do not know of Burge opening a single letter—Marks was not always consulted before doing a large bet, say £25—I know of no bet over that amount—Marks rarely did any writing, I had written his private letters—perhaps he was physically incapable—he was often shaky—I believe he drank—he was sufficiently educated to read and write—I frequently opened letters and replied to them or left them for Marks—I opened all letters that were found in the letter box when I arrived at 11 a.m.—the letters that came by the first post were brought to me later in the afternoon by Marks to answer, letters which he had opened in the morning—Mances generally met a telegraph messenger at the door—he read the telegram, and if it referred to the ordinary business he gave it to me, otherwise he kept it, I can tell Marks was at the office by transactions entered in this letter book—the book merely shows the office was open—I saw Marks on November 22nd—I first heard of the Liverpool Bank on the next day, Saturday afternoon, in a newspaper report—I think it would be mid-day—there was racing that day, November 23rd—it was an important day—Marks had not appeared—Burge came in the afternoon—he asked me where Marks was—I advised him to go round to the Adelphi Hotel—I think he went there—he remained in the office about five minutes—Marks' brother was there—he had nothing to do with the business, he had come from New York "' two or three days before—both were staying at the Adelphi Hotel—I introduced Burge to Marks' brother—very likely Burge asked me who he was—I said at the Police Court, "He asked me where Marks was, and why he had not turned up at the office"—that is true—I know Burge was arrested on Sunday night, the 24th.

Re-examined. I entered the bet and knew the name of the customer, and whether we could accept the bet—Marks kept the book—I kept a record of every sum, however small, received from any customer.

HENRY SKINNER . I am in charge of the Inquiry Office, Euston Station, of the L. & N.-W. Railway—I received this telegram October 17th, 1901 "Brixton Road," &c, "To Station Master, Euston Station, Please reserve two sleeping berths on twelve o'clock train for Liverpool, Burge"—I entered the order in the Sleeping Car Register—the attendant's name on the train was Murray.

FREDERICK WALTER MURRAY . I was the saloon attendant on the L. & N.-W. Railway on the train which left Euston at 12 p.m. on October 17th, and arrived at Liverpool at 6 a.m.—the sleeping berths Nos. I and 2 in that train were occupied by two men whom I could recognise—these are the photographs of them [Burge and Mances]—they asked me to call them at 7.45—they left the car about 8.15 a.m.

ELLEN FRANCES ABBOTT . I am a waitress at the Victoria Hotel, Liverpool—on October 18th, Burge was dining with the man in this photograph—later in the evening I saw them in their private sitting room—I went in answer to the bell—they ordered wine—Burge afterward asked me to cancel the sleeping berths on the midnight train—he said he was going on the next one at 2.35 a.m.—he asked me to order a sleeping berth on the train, but there were none—that was about 11.30 to 12—as far as I remember, Burge paid the bill.

JOHN MCINNES . I am the proprietor of the Victoria Hotel, Liverpool—I know Burge from seeing him at the hotel—he was there on October 18th, between 8 and £ a.m., in company with the original of this photograph (Produced)—I said casually to Burge "What are you doing here?"—his answer was"Just passing through," something to that effect—I took the names to book the bedrooms—the other name was Mances—they had a sitting room, which was made into a bedroom, as the house was very full—I saw them in the billiard room after breakfast and again during the day—for a couple of hours that morning I did not see them—they were in the billiard room in the afternoon—I believe they dined there in the evening—about 9 p.m. Burge spoke to me about a sleeping berth by the 12 train that night for London—the order was cancelled—there is no sleeping car on the 2.35 a.m., by which he left—Mances slept at my hotel that night—he left about 11 a.m.—that was the last time I saw him.

Cross-examined. I had known Burge a few years—I knew he came to places like Liverpool on boxing competitions—Burge only paid his own bill.

HENRY BEVERS WALKER . I occupy part of 15, North John Street, Liverpool, as an office—it is called "The Bureau"—letters and telegrams are received there for a small charge for persons who fetch them—I have seen Goudie there on several occasions—I knew him by the name letters were addressed to him, Scott—in October, 1901,1 saw him in the entrance off the pavement—our office is upstairs—he was talking to someone about 11 a.m—I had to leave the building and passed them—when I returned within about half an hour Goudie was still within the entrance—other persons were there—I did not notice whether Goudie was with anyone.

THOMAS GLENCROSS . I am in the Accountant General's Department of the General Post Office—I produce what was originally ten bundles of original telegrams which have been handed in at the Post Office.

THOMAS HENRY GURRIN . I am an expert in handwriting at Holborn Viaduct—I have had 17 years experience—I have examined a number of telegrams of different dates between October 14th and November 21st, 1901, also samples of the prisoners Burge and Goudie's writing, as well as that of Mances and Marks—I have correctly marked the names of the writers of the several telegrams in this book—I have also examined these receipts for four registered letters delivered at 3, Adelphi Terrace, in October and November last—to the best of my belief they are in Mances' writing—one bears the name of L. Marks.

Cross-examined. Referring to this book I find now that the telegram sent from Liverpool on September 10, "Going to Manchester, return to-night to Surbiton, if anything important, wire to Victoria Hotel, Manchester, best love. Dick," is marked "Burge"—Dick is Burge's name—looking it that telegram' now, I say it is not the same writing as Burge's—I checked the telegrams marked in the book—this is unlike Burge's writing—that is a mistake—it is signed Dick, that is all—there were about 500 documents altogether.

Re-examined. The pencil entries in the copy book are not in Burge's writing—I had for comparison of writing, two letters written by Goudie from Holloway of December 10th and 12th, a cheque on the Credit Lyonnais of November 12th, made out and endorsed by Lawrence Marks, a counterfoil of the cheque book issued by the Credit Lyonnais alleged to have been written by Burge, and a specimen of Mances' writing on a small slip of paper alleged to have been taken by the police from a pocket book which Mances left with his luggage.

HENRY SEWARD . I am a clerk employed by the proprietors of the Sportsman newspaper—on October 21st we received instructions for the advertisement of L. Marks & Co., commission agents—these instructions in my hand are to insert the advertisement daily on the front page of the Sportsman five times at 10s. 6d. each advertisement—the front page is not considered 30 important as near the leading article—instructions were given on the 22nd to advertise in the more important part of the paper"L, Marks & Co., 3, Adelphi Terrace, London, and Guernsey, Cambridgeshire, Advantageous terms free on application, Telegraphic Address, 'Gargled,' London, Telephone, 3212 Gerard," and that was inserted in the middle of the paper—the same advertisement had appeared outside—the cost was increased from 10s. 6d. to 20s. each insertion.

Cross-examined. The firm of L. Marks & Co. had been in the habit of advertising in the Sportsman at least twelve months before this date.

WALTER GEORGE BISHOP . I am overseer of the Western Central District Post Office, New Oxford Street—I produce the four certificates of the delivery of registered letters addressed to L. Marks & Co., 3, Adelphi Terrace,"Strand, W.C.—these receipts refer to four letters posted at Liverpool Head Office on October 20th and 27th, and November" 3rd and 10th, 1901—attached I find what purports to be the signatures given to the postman who delivered the letters at 3, Adelphi Terrace.

THOMAS GEORGE AUSTEN . I am a postman, No. 101, at the Western District Office—3, Adelphi Terrace, was in my delivery in October 1901—the basement floor was occupied by Lawrence Marks—another man visited there in October and November—I know Burge by sight—I have

not seen him at 3, Adelphi Terrace—on October 21st I delivered a registered letter at 3, Adelphi Terrace, to a man I have since found out was Mr. Mances, about 8.30 a.m.—he came to the door in answer to the bell—I gave him this form of receipt and my pencil to sign it with—he asked me if I had anything for Marks or Marks & Co.—he signed L. Marks before me with my pencil—the following Monday, October 28th, I delivered another registered letter to the same man, Mances—he was waiting at the street door—he signed for it "L. Marks "'—on November 4th, when I delivered another registered letter, Marks and Mances were both waiting at the office door—Marks took the letter and passed the slip to Mances to sign, which he did "Marks"—I asked him to put an initial, so he put "L." to it—I delivered a fourth letter at the same address to Mances, who was waiting, and who signed for it "L. Marks."

Cross-examined. It was the early delivery, or what we call the general post delivery, on each occasion—I knew Burge as a professional boxer, having seen him at Nestle's Sporting Club, Covent Garden, also at the Tivoli, and about the neighbourhood.

EDWIN DOCKREE . I am cashier to the London and County Banking Company, Covent Garden Branch, Henrietta Street—I know Burge by sight—I produce certified copy of his account with that branch of the Bank—I have examined it with the books—it is correct—it commenced on February 27th and ended on December 18th, 1900, by a cheque to self of £4 12s. 2d.

Cross-examined. He had an account opened on 6/5/95—that was similar—I was subpoenaed to produce the one I have—I will produce a copy of the account or the pass book, to-morrow.

ROBERT WILLIAM HUDSON . I am one of the firm of R. S. Hudson and Company, soap manufacturers, Bank Hall, Liverpool—for many years my firm have had an account, and I have had an account at the Bank of Liverpool, one account in the firm's name and one in my own—this cheque of October 21st for £5,000 is upon my private account—I never drew any cheques in favour of T. P. Scott for £5,000, £9,000, £7,000, £9,000, £30,000, nor £31,000.

ANNIE THOMASON . I live at my aunt's house at 10, Thornton Place, Liverpool—my aunt knew all Goudie's family—he lodged with her seven or eight years ago, and up to November last year—he paid for his board and lodging £1 a week—the house is not far from the docks—the rent is about £25 a year—my uncle was dock gateman.

THOMAS PETERSON GOUDIE . I have pleaded guilty to this indictment—I was formerly a clerk in a Bank in Scotland—I entered the service of the Liverpool Bank eight years ago—I was in their service up to November 21st—I boarded and lodged with Mrs. Thomason—I was ledger clerk—I dealt with the names of customers from H to K—I am 29 years of age—Mr. Hudson was a customer—cheques drawn upon his account after passing through the clearing department and being entered in the journal, came into my possession from the clearing clerk—my duty was to enter it to the debit of the customer in the ledger—the cheques were filed—I was familiar with Mr. Hudson's account—for some time before October last year I had been engaged in betting transactions—I had lost considerable sums—I have pleaded guilty to forging cheques of

Mr. Hudson—in the case of cheques I forged I did not debit the customer's account—I destroyed the cheque—coming into possession of the clearing clerk, it would be entered in the journal—those entries should be checked with the entries in the ledger, and if correct they are ticked—I sat by the ticker off from the clearing book—the clearing book is a separate journal—to make the books agree I ticked off the clearing book, which ought to have been done by, the checker, a different person from the clearing clerk—I had been in the habit of receiving telegrams at the Bureau in North John Street, Liverpool, before October 18th, 1901, where I could have letters addressed by paying a fee of 1d.—I received letters and telegrams in the name of Scott and sent them away with that address—it was about 300 yards from the Bank, or about three minutes' walk—before October 18th I had sent telegrams to Newmarket and other race courses—I went to the Bureau nearly every day—about October 18th C was spoken to by a man I did not know, about 12.30, at the Bureau—this is his photograph—he asked me the address of some stationers, and I pointed out a building where he would be likely to find them, in North John Street—I went back to No. 15 and he followed me—he said, "You go in for racing"—I said he was making a mistake—"Oh no," he said, "I have not, I have seen you at Doncaster, Manchester and Sandown; I have seen you along with Kelly and his partner Stiles; you have lost a lot of money to them"—I still insisted that he was making a mistake—he said he had been in my company at Doncaster and that he knew all about me, and "You are a clerk in the Bank of Liverpool, and you are in a position where you can command money"—he wanted me to grant him an interview and to have an hour's conversation—I admitted being at Doncaster with Stiles and Kelly—he said he was an American, and knew all the American jockeys, and that he was in a position where he could get good information regarding racing, also that there was money to be made, and he wanted to make some—I suggested that he was hard up and wanted a sovereign or two—he said no, he was not at all, and showed me a receipted bill from the Charing Cross Hotel, London—he said his name was Mances—he said that it was only capital that was required to make a fortune, and that he was in a position where he could get racing information, whereby we would make a fortune—all this conversation took place just inside the door at 15, North John Street—he was decidedly hostile—he forced the conversation on me—when I tried to avoid the conversation he said, "I am not a detective"—that was immediately he said that I was a clerk in the Bank of Liverpool, and that I was in a position to command money—I was alarmed—I think he said he was staying at the Victoria Hotel—he said he had come specially from London to see me—I promised to see him in the London and North Western Hotel at eight that night—the conversation lasted ten minutes or a quarter of an hour—I arranged to meet him and went to the Bank—at night I went to the London and North Western Hotel—he came into the smoking room, where I was waiting for him—he asked me to come across to the Victoria, where he was putting up—there he took me into his sitting bedroom—I asked him how he got my name—he told me by taking wires off the telegraph board which were addressed to Kelly at different race meetings—I had telegraphed to Kelly

at different race meetings—he said he opened, read them, and put them back—he addressed me as Scott—he got my address, he said, by following Kelly until one day after he had written a wire he tore it up, and he, Mances, put the fragments together, and so got my address, 15, North John Street—he said he knew a jockey named Ballard, who owned race horses under various nom de plumes, and that Ballard could so arrange a race that he knew the absolute winner—this was all on the Friday night—he said he expected a message from Ballard for something very special on the following day, and that he could introduce me to a firm of very large commission agents, "L. Marks & Co.," and that Marks was very wealthy and connected with very wealthy people, and if any sum was too large for Marks, he could pass it over to any of his wealthy friends, who were Jews, and had large transactions on the Stock Exchange, and he would get a commission on the winnings, and that he did not back the horses himself, because he had not the means, but it was possible to back a horse for almost any amount—I arranged to call round at the Victoria Hotel the next day, Saturday, the 19th—I went about 2 o'clock—I saw Mances in the same sitting bedroom at the Victoria Hotel—he showed me a message signed by Ballard, and said that the horse Hedera was extra good—he showed me this telegram, signed by Marks, sent at 10.40 from 369, Strand, and addressed to Mances at the Victoria Hotel: "You can send £5,000 an hour before starting time of race"—he suggested that I should back Hedera for £5,000, and he gave me the address, "Gargled, London"—I sent off this wire in the name of T. P. Scott to back Hedera for £5,000 and "Reply if on to Bureau," etc., although I knew nothing of "Gargled" nor Mances—I sent it from the post office under the London and North Western Railway Hotel, close to where I was—shortly afterwards I received this reply from Marks: "You are on Hedera £5,000" the race was run after 3 p.m., and the horse did not win—I left Mances, but saw him at the same place after I knew Hedera had lost—he had this telegram, signed Ballard, that the horse was very unlucky and had got left at the post, but it would be all right next week—Burge was not mentioned to me—he said that he would arrange so that I could bet with Marks up to £25,000 in one week—to pay the £5,000 to Marks & Co., I made out a cheque in favour of T. P. Scott, and signed it R. W. Hudson, endorsed it T. P. Scott, and sent it to Marks by registered letter—I think I posted it on the Sunday—I never saw Mances after the Saturday, nor received any telegrams or letters from him—the cheque came back into my possession in the way I have described, and I destroyed it—on Tuesday, October 22nd, I telegraphed, "Five each way Lady Macdonald "—that meant £2,500, because Mances was to tell Marks that £500 was to equal "one" on a wire, so that Macdonald stood £2,500 to win and £1,500 for a place—I got the cheques from a book I bought at the bank counter—I had one cheque bonk in the name of a customer, but that was full by the time Mances came on the scene—I had a small account at the bank—I received the answer, "You are on five each way Lady Macdonald"—on October 23rd I was betting again, and received these two telegrams, "You are on, Marks"—I also sent this telegram, "Ten, Tee-to-tum"—that would be £5,000 on Tee-to-tum—that is

answered the same day at 3.57, "You are on, Marks"—on the 25th I bet on Tin Soldier and Port Blair, and on the 25th I got this telegram, "Impossible to do any business this week, as I am a commission agent, and made arrangements with other people same as I did with you, Marks"—I put "ten" each on Laird and May King, and got the answer, "All right"—that week I lost £25,000—to pay that £25,000 I forged two cheques for £9,000 and one for £7,000—I posted those in registered letters to L. Marks & Co.—I saw their advertisement in a sporting newspaper—the amounts were put on the horses at starting prices—the Sportsman gave the starting price—I recognise in it the advertisement of Marks & Co.—I received this telegram of October 29th, "You can do business to eighty this week, send letter to-night"—"eighty" meant £40,000—I did receive the letters—they were all signed, "L. Marks & Co."—I destroyed (item—as a rule they acknowledged receipt of what I had sent, asking for arrangements for the following week, and they would endorse what I put money on—I had no knowledge that Mances or Burge were sending these telegrams—on October 29th I telegraphed, "Ten each St. Bernard and Claret"—that would be £5,000—the answers were, "All right"—"Shot Gun twenty" would be £10,000—I sent another bet on Lock and Key, five, and Double Dealer on October 30th, and on November 2nd ten each on Laird and May King—that week's result of racing was my loss of £30,000, as I supposed—on November 2nd I received this telegram, "I am doing no business to-day, I will arrange for next week, so you are not on"—on the Saturday, to meet the indebtedness of £30,000, I forged the cheque for £30,000, and forwarded it in the same way to L. Marks & Co.—on. November 4th, I received this telegram, "Everything arranged, do nothing until you hear from me, Mances"—I had not heard from him since he left Liverpool—on November 4th and 5th, I wired again "Twenty Nahlband, ten Merry Andrew," and "Five St. Hilarious," but received no acknowledgment of cheque—and on November 5th I received this telegram, "Received with thanks, have received no wires from you this week, neglect of clerk to post letter," and shortly afterwards, in Mance's writing, "Clerk's neglect, having mislaid wire, so you have no bet, we are the losers, if horses had won should have had to pay, Marks"—on November 6th I telegraphed "Ten each Deep Sea and St. Quintin," and "Ten each Vertigo and Viper," and got answers "Ail right"—then I received this telegram of November 7th, "Yesterday bet on Sidus, seven to one"—I had put £10,000 on Sidus by letter, and asked what price he could give me up to £10,000, and the answer was "Seven to one"—on November 7th the race had been postponed—I telegraphed "Ten each on two horses at seven to one," which was answered at 2.33 "All right"—on November 8th, 9th, 10th, and 11th, I telegraphed, including £10,000 on Sansome on November 11th, which was the only winner that week—I met the loss that week by forging the cheque for £31,000, and sent it in the same way—Sansome started at five to two—I should have won £25,000 if it had been a real bet—having wired at 12.40, at 1.34 I received the telegram "Not doing anything to-day, Mr. Marks sick," and an hour later another, "Mr. Marks is very sick, I cannot do business without him," and on the same day. "Cheque received, will not be able to execute any commissions for a day or two, L. Marks taken suddenly ill,

he will try and write you"—on November 12th I got this telegram, "Mr. Marks will be able to do business to-morrow or the next day, he is very sorry for you, he could not help it"—up to Saturday, October 19th, I had had transactions with a man called Stripes—then I proceeded to bet with Marks and Co, whom Mances mentioned to me, because I was afraid of Mances exposing me to the Bank authorities—the telegrams produced signed Scott are written by me—on November 20th or 21st an enquiry was made with regard to one of the cheques, and I was spoken to about it at the Bank—in consequence of those inquiries I absconded—I was arrested about December 1st or 2nd—Burge had been arrested, but I had no knowledge that he was a party to the transactions I had been engaged in.

Cross-examined. I had never seen Burge to my recollection—I had heard of him as a boxing man—I was at the Hotel in Liverpool from about 8 to 9 p.m. on October 18th—the enquiry by the Bank was as to a cheque entered in the clearing book, but not in the ledger, for £9,000, one of those I had forged, and purporting to be signed by Mr. Hudson—anyone who had compared the books would have seen it—none of the forged cheques appear in the ledger—the accountant said it was not in the ledger—I said it must have gone to the wrong account—he said it was very curious it was not in Mr. Hudson's account when it was in the clearing book—he sent someone to look for the cheque—I said I would look through the ledger and find out what account it had gone to—the cheques are all passed at night, and the porter collects them and puts them away in separate bundles for each day—I posted £9,000 in the ledger to the suspense account of Horsfall Brothers, when the accountant had gone back to his own desk—the messenger came back and said he could not find the cheque—I was not surprised at that, because I had destroyed it—I said I had taken the cheque from the bundle and had laid it on a certain desk that I mentioned, but when he came to look for it it had disappeared—I said it was very curious—that was previous to the messenger going to look for it—the accountant and I went to the porter's desk to look for it—I said it was very funny, and that when the porter returned from his round delivering letters perhaps he could throw some light on it—when the porter came back he was sent for—he said he had not seen it—I said "It is a very mysterious disappearance"—I do not think the accountant was satisfied—he was momentarily satisfied—I showed him the entry to Horsfall's account—it took me about half an hour to find it after I had made it, so as to give it time to dry and so as not to blot it and make it appear a different entry—I had to interpolate it into Horsfall's account at the right date—I went out to lunch very shortly afterwards and disappeared—my answers were invented on the spur of the moment, as the necessity arose—before October 18th I had been betting perhaps three years in a small way, for the first year from 5s. to £5, and then on a bigger scale—for one year on a large scale—during the first two years perhaps I made £800 in a week—that is the largest amount—the most I lost in a week was about half of that—my salary was £150—my losses increased—I got the money to meet it from the same source—by forging Mr. Hudson's cheques—in addition to my small account at the Liverpool Bank I opened an account

at Lloyd's Bank, Liverpool, early in 1901, in the name of John Style—asked the manager to collect one of Hudson's cheques payable to Style—I paid a commission and received the proceeds—then I went again and got him to collect another cheque—I gave him an address near the Bank in Gray Street—on the third occasion I went to him he said if I did not want all the money he would be glad to take charge of some of it—I agreed to leave some in his care, and he asked for my designation and address—he already had my name, and I gave my designation as an oil and colour merchant—there was no such person at the address I gave—the account is still open—it increased in amount—it may be March, 1901, when I opened it—I dare say that is right—I volunteered to give evidence, I think, immediately after my second appearance at Bow Street—before the committal—I made a statement to Inspector Nearn in prison.

Re-examined. At the end of 19001 made the acquaintance of Kelly and Stiles—up to seeing Mances in October, 1901, I was betting with Kelly—Nearn arrested me and brought me to town—on the way I gave him an account of what occurred at Liverpool with Mances—my turnover at Lloyd's Bank at Liverpool was perhaps £10,000 or £5,000, it ran into thousands—I forget the manager's name—I was not asked for references—I do not remember that I signed my name in the book.

ALFRED EDGAR GALE . I am a turf commission agent, of Glenrose, Streatham Common—I have an office in Warneford Court—I know Larry Marks, an American, as carrying on a starting price business in racing at 3, Adelphi Terrace, up to October 14th last year—the Sunday previous he came to my private residence and stayed with me—when he came own on the Monday morning to breakfast he asked me to lend him £100, as he was temporarily short—I said "Certainly I will lend it you"—he came to my office with me—when writing this cheque he said "I am going to share in the profits of a ready money book"—I had previously lent him sums of £2, £5, or £10—he then owed me £22—on October 26th or 29th he repaid me the £122—I understood he was going to have a third share in a starting price business—I sent him sums on some horses later on.

Cross-examined. I had known Marks about two years—I do not remember whether the 14th was the day of the caesarwitch race—he had a good reputation, and I believed him to be a good, straightforward, honest man.

Re-examined. I believe he had then been at Adelphi Terrace six or seven months—he had an office in the basement—up to that time he had been in New Oxford Street—I do not know that he ever failed—he was very reticent.

EVA HISSGEN . I am manageress of the Adelphi Hotel, London—Marks had stayed there about four years up to November last—I last saw him on November 23rd—Mances came to see him several times—he stayed two or three hours sometimes—he had been coming for nearly two years on and off—he came on November 23rd—Marks was at home that evening—he was there till about 11.30 p.m.—Marks saw him—I saw Marks on Sunday, November 24th, between 11 and 12—he asked for his

bill—he said he was going to Brighton—I asked him for how long—he said probably three or four days, and then shook hands and said very likely I should never see his miserable face again—that was the last time I saw him—he took a kit bag like this—lie left a large cabin trunk in his room—that was handed to the police.

HERBERT JAMES JARMAIN .I am the sub-manager of the Cockspur Street Branch of the Credit Lyonnais—towards the end of 1899 an account was opened at the branch by Lawrence A. Marks, of 3, Adelphi Terrace—that account existed till November, 1901—on June 30th his balance was £2 7s. 5d.—there is no other entry till October 14th—there is a remittance, and a cheque book is taken out and small sums paid in and out—on October 21st, 1900, a cheque is paid in by Marks for £5,000, dated October 19th, 1901, purporting to have been drawn by R. W. Hudson upon the Bank of Liverpool—that was collected and placed to his credit on October 24th, after Bank hours, so that it was not available till the morning of the 25th—on the 25th Burge and Marks came to the Bank and presented this cheque on Marks' account for £4,500 payable to Burge and endorsed in my presence by Burge, who wished to open an account—Burge had £1,000 placed to his credit and £3,500 in cash—he took 10 £100 notes, 20 £50 notes, 50 £20, 45 £10, and £50 in sovereigns—I have the numbers of the notes which have been produced and which were paid to Burge—I obtained Burge's signature and his address, Hummum's Hotel, Covent Garden—he represented himself as a commission agent—the body of the cheque for £4,500 is Burge's writing to the best of my belief—the next day, the 28th, Marks brought two cheques for £7,000 and £9,000 and dated October 26th, drawn against R. W. Hudson in favour of T. P. Scott on the Bank of Liverpool—they were paid on the same day and credited on the 30th as £16,000—on October. 31st Marks came again with a gentleman, and said "I wish to introduce you to Mr. James Mances, who wants to open an account with you"—the usual form was gone through, Mances signed the book—he described himself as a commission agent living at the Charing Cross Hotel, and he opened a new account by a payment in of £1,500 in notes and a sovereign—I have the numbers of those notes—on November 1st Burge brought this cheque for £13,000, drawn by Marks, who was with him—it was endorsed Richard Burge, who opened an account by having £6,000 placed to his credit—he took £7,000, in cash by four notes of £1,000 and 60 notes of £500—I have the numbers—in Mances' account on November 1st I find £10,000 placed to his credit in exchange for the £13,000—on November 4th Marks brought a cheque for £30,000 of November 2nd, and purporting to have been drawn by R. W. Hudson upon the Bank of Liverpool—those were paid, and were credited to Marks on November 7th—on November 8th Burge handed me a cheque for £15,000 drawn by Marks in Burge's favour, and endorsed by Burge, and is credited to his account, and another cheque for £5,000 payable to himself or order and endorsed by him—that was paid to him in five notes of £500, 20 of £100, 15 of £20, and 20 of £10 each—the same day Mances brought a cheque for £10,000 drawn by Marks, and I find in Mances' account of November 8th he is credited with £10,000—on November 13th Burge drew on his account a cheque for £10,000 in favour of Mrs. Burge

—that was paid—on November 11th Marks brought another cheque for £31,000 of November 9th, which was dealt with in the same way and credited on November 14th—on November 15th a cheque was drawn by Marks in favour of Burge for £15,000—the same day Marks drew two cheques for £830 and £10,000 to the order of Mances, with which Mances was credited on November 16th, and Burge drew a cheque for £5,000, and £10,000 was transferred to his deposit account at 16 days notice—on November 21st Marks drew a cheque in favour of Bella Burge for £1,000—the last account was en November 22nd, £3,589 15s. 5d. and £10,000 on deposit—that day the balance standing to Marks' credit was £1,901 10s. 2d.—the £461 is a payment to us in exchange for drafts from America—he gave us a cheque, with which we debited his account—we have no advice, and we do not receive advice unless they are refused—we only receive notice that we have advised them, that is the Continental custom—Mances' last operation on November 22nd—Burge's transfer of £14,000 left him a credit balance of £18,324 19s., roughly £32,000, to his credit—I produce specimens of Mances', Marks', and Burge's writing.

Cross-examined. We had no suspicion—we did cot know Hudson—I never asked who he was—there was no conversation about Hudson—we inquired about the respectability of Burge, but not at Hummum's Hotel after Marks' introduction, which was sufficient for us—on Friday, November 22nd, we were served with an injunction arresting any transaction on account of Burge—it is customary to give a customer notice by a note of an injunction served on us—I cannot say this was done, but I assume the ordinary practice was followed—we may have been asked not to do so—I have never asked about it—I inquired as to Burge's character from people connected with betting—I asked Mr. Fry, a bookmaker and commission agent, of Cockspur Street—he is a customer—I did not send for him, I asked him when I saw him—it was entered on a card that we keep—I can produce the card to-morrow—there are two Frys, an uncle and a nephew—I believe they are both in the betting line of the best.

WILLIAM CHARLES FULLICKS . I am manager of the New Oxford Street Branch of the London and County Bank, where an account was opened on October 28th, 1901, by Lawrence Abraham Marks—I produce a certified copy of it from October 28th to November 21st, and extracts from the pass book, and the numbers of the note—two cheques for £9,000 each were paid to credit on October 30th on the Liverpool Bank in the name of Hudson.

STEPHEN ALLEN MATON . I am manager of the North Brixton Branch of the London and South-Western Bank—on October 31st last year an account was opened by Mrs. Bella Burge, of 28, Wiltshire Road, Brixton—this is a certified copy of the account—sums were paid in and drawn out to November 20th—on October 31st £3,700 was paid in—on November 12th there is an order for the payment of £1,000, and a further payment of £10,000 on November 13th, and £1,000 on November 20th, and a sum of £15,000 taken from current and placed to deposit account at three months' call at 2 1/2 per cent., and there was left to credit £813 7s. lid over and above the deposit amount of £15,000.

Cross-examined. An injunction was served upon us on Friday, November 22nd—we gave notice to the customer, but not till about five

days afterwards, because the telegram giving us notice stated that it was as well not to—I consulted the head office, and found it was not necessary.

GEORGE FAAZ . I am chief clerk at the Charing Cross Hotel—last year James Mances came, and stopped there about the end of September—this is his photograph—he appeared to be an American—he occupied a room till October 19th he went away, and returned on the 20th, when he occupied Room 87 till November 23rd, when he left without notice and without his luggage and without paying his bill—subsequently I gave Inspector Froest access to the room and handed over the contents.

Cross-examined. We saw Mances last about 11 a.m. on the Saturday.

LAWRENCE SOMERS . I carry on business in the neighbourhood of Paris in the name of Ellis Phipps—I knew Lawrence Marks for many years at Adelphi Terrace and before he went there—I saw him on Saturday, November 16th, and on November 18th received a cheque from him for £500—I will give that up on consideration—I next saw him on Saturday, November 23rd, and Sunday, November 24th—he went to Brighton with me at my request—I was with him the whole of the day—I left him at the Brighton station going away by the train to Newhaven—I understood he was going to Monte Carlo—he had a kit bag of this sort (Produced)—I lent him this rug—I never heard from him since.

Cross-examined. On November 16th he said he was going away for the winter, that he had sent for his brother to America, and they were going to make a tour—the brother came the following week and accompanied us to Brighton on November 26th—on Saturday, November 23rd, he said he was going to start for Monte Carlo—I was with him that evening—I was a partner in a manner—I advanced money to carry on the business of L. Marks & Co. for about twelve months—I think from September 1890—he formerly carried on business in Oxford Street under the same name—he had been a bookmaker about 18 months—he had been in partnership with a Mr. Michaels—then he moved to Adelphi Terrace—I was sleeping partner, I found the money—there were no profits—I had to put up with my share of the loss and his, too—it was a very bad year for people in our business—I have said that the arrangement was that I should bear a fourth of the loss and share a fourth of the profits—that was the arrangement—I never heard Hudson's nor Scott's name in connection with Marks—on the Sunday he went away, Marks confided to me that the name of the man he had been winning money from was Hudson, and that I might make him a customer, and that Hudson did not do business in his own name, but through a man named Scott—he said he thought Hudson must be a very rich man.

Re-examined. The business in Oxford Street was called "Barney Michaels" or"B. Michaels & Co."—my son was in that business from its commencement till about the middle of last September—I did not know on November 22nd or 23rd that Marks was connected with the reports in the newspapers—I had seen the reports, but I believe Hudson's name was not mentioned.

ARTHUR GEORGE KEMP . I live at 99, Bedford Court Mansions—I am a professional backer of horses—I went to Paris on the evening of Saturday, November 23rd, with James Mances—I knew on the Friday he was

going—I was living in Paris, and said I was going home, and he said he would go with me—he had practically lived in Paris nine months—I had read of the Liverpool Bank frauds—I could not tell you when—I arrived in Paris on the morning of November 24th—I changed £2,000 in Bank of England notes into French money—I saw him in the afternoon at my apartments in Paris, and he left me there, saying he was going to the Continental Hotel, where he had lived about twelve months—I was with him from 10 till 11 a.m.—I met him again at lunch at the Grand Cafe—we went back to our apartments, and I left him about 4 p.m. because I told him I was going back to London—I left for London that night because I received a telegram that my mother had died—I neither went to Paris nor came from Paris with him.

JOHN JAMES RITCHIE . I am Chief Inspector at the Bank of Liverpool, at their head office, 17, Water Street—Goudie absconded, and was arrested some time afterwards with regard to six cheques in October and November which were paid as genuine cheques in the ordinary way.

Cross-examined. Goudie was in hiding for about a week after the other prisoners were in custody, and while the case was being heard at the Police Court, and he had access to the newspaper?.

JAMES NEARN (Detective Officer.) The warrants issued against the four prisoners at Bow Screet, were in possession of the police on November 23rd—on December 2nd I went to Liverpool, and at the Bootle Police Station saw Goudie detained—I charged him on the warrant and brought him back to London—he made a statement, the details of "which I gave in evidence at the Police Court—he made it entirely voluntarily in the train—I recorded it in writing—this is it (Produced).

Cross-examined. Burge was arrested on Sunday evening, November 24th, and brought up at the Police Court on the 26th—Kelly surrendered shortly afterwards—I believe Goudie had been hiding at Bootle—Stiles was arrested later at an hotel—he absconded.

FRANK FROEST (Detective Inspector.) I have had a good deal of experience on race courses from attending race meetings—betting commences after the numbers have been put up on the board, and when it is ascertained what horses are running and who the jockeys are—the interval between races is about half an hour—the betting continues till the flag falls and the horses are off—that is the starting price and is reported in the sporting newspapers the following day—the market varies up to the time the flag falls, &c, depending upon the amount put on a horse—bets are made while the horses are running—I knew Larry Marks very well for some time—he was an American: a "New Yorker"—I knew by sight. Mances, who was born in England, but had lived in America for many years—I knew Marks was carrying on a starting price business at Adelphi Terrace—my inquiries were directed to—the arrest of Marks and Mances—I received this telegram from Marks, it is handed in at Paris "Leave here at 10.30 by way of Folkestone. L. Marks"—accordingly I went to Folkestone to meet the Boulogne boat—I saw the passengers come off—Marks was not amongst them—he has an extraordinary face—I could not fail to miss him even in a big crowd—I did not find him—I made subsequent inquiries and was handed this bag and rug, which were on the boat—they have been identified—I subsequently took possession

of the books, documents and papers relating to Marks' betting business including those spoken to by Mr. Woolgar—I also took possession of room No. 87 at the Charing Cross Hotel, Mances' room—I found amongst a number of addresses 15, North John Street, Liverpool; 28, Wiltshire Road, Kemp Town; 99, Bedford Court Mansions; Mary worth House, Brighton, a lease of Marks & Co., formerly B. Michaels & Co., a number of telegrams from Goudie to Marks, signed Scott, gambling implements or a card sharpers lay-out—[Produced]—paying-in slips of the Credit Lyonnais and other banking documents and letters showing communications between him and persons in America, and some money he was sending there.

Cross-examined. I found 18 telegrams from Goudie to Marks in the name of Scott of recent dates in a pocket of a portmanteau.

WILLIAM GOUGH (Detective-Sergeant). I saw Burge at 28, Wiltshire Road, on the night of November 25th—he had just got out of bed—I told him I was a police officer, and held a warrant for his arrest, and that he would have to come with me to Bow Street—I read the warrant to him and told him he would be charged with being concerned with others in uttering forged bankers' cheques—he replied "all right," and commenced to dress himself—I called him out of the bedroom and read the warrant to him again—he said "Are they Marks' cheques that are forged?"—I said, "That is what is alleged"—he said, "That is all right, is not it? Mine's for betting"—amongst other papers I found a paying-in slip of the Credit Lyonnais for £15,000, a receipt for £10,000 on deposit, at the London and South-Western Bank, Brixton, in the name of Bella Burge, and a book of the same bank in the name of Mrs. Burge and a Credit Lyonnais cheque book and a paying-in book and a paper of sums lent and paid.

Cross-examined. I knew Burge well by sight—I saw him at the Tivoli on Saturday afternoon, November 23rd, but not at night—I had not the warrant then—I knew it was out—I understood he meant when he said "Mine's for betting," the part he had played with Marks and Mances—this is a betting book—his writing is difficult to read—I believe there is an entry of £100 and "Chester"—I have said I found transactions recorded, for most is so apparently—I find entries of £50, £50, and £150 and £50 in this book, and £100, £150 and £200—I imagine it is a bookmaker's record—and other entries.

Re-examined. The warrant mentions the cheques for £9,000, £7,000, £9,000, £30,000, and £31,000.

EDWIN DOCKREE (Examined by Mr. Avory). I am a clerk in the London and County Bank, Covent Garden—we did not know Burge to be living at Hummum's—we had no other address—between May and September, 1895, £2,700 was paid into Burge's account, and on September 12th, 1896, £1,700, and in 1897 and 1898 other sums—we did not deem it a substantial account.

GEORGE TRACE (Examined by Mr. Avory). I was a witness for the prosecution at the Police Court—I was a clerk in the office of Marks and Co. at Adelphi Terrace during the time Burge and Mances were coming there last year—I said, "all that Burge did was to open the telegram and hand it to me if it related to betting to be entered in the book, but had nothing to do

with whether the business should bedone or not," and "I believe Mances had all the telegrams and kept them"—that is, all the telegrams which were not handed in to be entered—Marks told me that Burge had part money in the business—I saw Burge between 3.30 and 4 p.m. on November 23rd—I expected him on the Monday—Mances had attended at the office quite two months before Burge came.

Re-examined. Before Burge and Mances came Gale had lent Marks £100—the business was carried on for a week—Marks never showed us anything—he paid the money into the bank himself—Mances was only a friend as far as I knew—I never heard of his putting money into the business—I understood the partners to be Burge and Marks—Marks said Burge had put money in and that he paid Kelly out with that—the business was not large—Burge or Mances opened the telegrams and decided whether they were to be entered—they attended at the office about three weeks—people bet from 2s. to £50—I did not know Scott.

Burge's statement before the Magistrate.—"I never had any idea that the money was forged or stolen, all I thought was that Marks had been betting with a man with plenty of money; I had no idea anything was wrong.

Burge, in his defence, on oath stated that having made £80,000 by professional boxing he was not hard up for money, but at Marks' suggestion had advanced him £250 and was to have half the profit of his betting, but hat he knew nothing of Scott or Goudie, nor that the firm was betting with a bank clerk; that he went to Liverpool to be introduced to Mances' rich friend and failed, but did not know of Mances' threatening attitude to Goudie; that the telegrams in his writing were dictated by Marks, who seldom wrote himself, but were never sent on his own responsibility; that he knew nothing about the telegrams about Marks being sick, nor that any of the money received came from any other source than fair and honest betting.

Burge received a good character.

GUILTY — Two years' hard labour on the count for conspiracy; four-years' penal servitude on the count for obtaining £5,000 by false pretences; three years' penal servitude for obtaining £9,000 by false pretences; and three years penal servitude on the count for obtaining £7,000 by false pretences, the two years' hard labour being concurrent (Ten years' penal servitude in all).—GOUDIE Ten years' penal servitude.