Old Bailey Proceedings Online (www.oldbaileyonline.org, version 8.0, 11 May 2021), June 1876, trial of CHARLES VICTOR CLEGHORN DOWN (21) JOSHUA KEITH HILTON (23) (t18760626-265).

CHARLES VICTOR CLEGHORN DOWN, JOSHUA KEITH HILTON, Deception > forgery, 26th June 1876.

265. CHARLES VICTOR CLEGHORN DOWN (21), and JOSHUA KEITH HILTON (23) , Feloniously forging and uttering a warrant for the payment of 75l., with intent to defraud.

MESSRS. POLAND, CRAUFURD, and STRAIGHT" conducted the Prosecution; and MR. M. WILLIAMS the Defence.

HENRY EDWARD WILLIAMS . I am in my seventeenth year—my father lives at 1, Cedar Terrace, Fulham Road—he is a house agent and collects rents—I was living in May, at 11, Hope Terrace, at a house kept by Mrs. Mowbray—I know both the prisoners—Down lived at 64, Stafford Place, Buckingham Palace Road, and Hilton, at 1, Stafford Villas, Odessa Road, Forest Gate—I have known Down intimately for sometime, and had on prior occasions taken cheques to get cashed for him, bearing the name of Hall—Hilton was called Jos sometimes, and Down's sister passes as Mrs. Hilton—on Tuesday, 9th May, I was engaged with my father at the Brompton County Court, on some matter about rents, and when I went home I found Down at my father's office, at Cedar Terrace—I said something about his looking ill and mentioned 10s., which was owing to me—. he said that he had been waiting for me a deuce of a time, and he thought if he went to the County Court he might find me—we went out together, called at a shop to get some food, and then went on to my lodging—he said "I want you to go and cash a cheque for me?"—I said "All right, I will"—he took out a pocket-book and placed the cheque on my table—he gave me a sovereign—he owed my sister 1l. 10s.—he said, he would pay me what he owed me—I sat down and had some food, and about a quarter of an hour afterwards I heard someone talking outside the door—I opened the door and saw Down—he came towards me and then I saw Hilton talking to Mrs. Mowbray—Down said "We've been waiting a deuce of a time for this fellow; he has only just found me"—it was then about 2.30—Hilton came into room, shook hands with me and sat down; I asked him to have something to eat, and he had some lunch—while he was having it he noticed the piece of blue paper which was lying on the table, and said "Oh; here's the cheque," and took it up and looked at it—I went and got some beer and some peppermint, and brought them in—Hilton then said "Do you know where you are going?"—I said "No, I do not know whether I am going to the same place"—Hilton said "You are going to the Western Branch of the Bank of England"—I said "All right"—

Hilton said "Go to the middle cashier on your right hand"—I said "Very well"—he gave me the cheque and said I was to get 55l. in gold, and the rest in bank-notes—Hilton remarked that "I looked very shabby," and said to Down "You had better lend Charlie your coat"—Down said "I don't see what he wants my coat for"—I ultimately put on Down's coat—it was a light coat, a large sort of a plaid—Down put on my coat—he took some papers out of his own and a purse, and Hilton said "You had better lend Williams that purse," which was done, and I took it to the bank—Hilton said "Wait here till we come back"—Down said "Very well"—I went out with Hilton—we had something to drink and then we went on the top of an omnibus to the Burlington Arcade—Hilton went to a convenience while I remained at the corner of Cork Street—he then said "There's somebody coming along to whom I owe money, and I don't want him to see me go into the bank; I will wait at the corner of Burlington Arcade"—I then went to the bank and presented the cheque—there was some little delay—the cashier then asked me how I would take it—I said "35l. In gold, and the rest in notes"—I received eight 5l. notes, and,35l. in gold, which I put into the purse—I then left the bank, went to the Burlington Arcade and searched for Hilton, but could not find him—I ultimately went back to my lodgings—neither Hilton nor Down were there; I then went to 22, Wood Street, Chelsea, the residence of Emma Goldspink, who I have seen frequently with Down—I then went to South Kensington, and from. there to Liverpool Street, and from there to Forest Gate, to Hilton's house, 1, Stafford Villas—I arrived there at 8.30 or 9 o'clock, and found Mrs. Hilton there—I had some conversation with her—the bouse was poorly furnished—the first person who "came in was Down, at a little after 9 o'clock, but they had no clock so I could no tell exactly—there were not many chairs there—Down said "Have you got the money all right?"—I said "Yes, I have"—he said "Hand it over?"—I handed him the purse, and he laid it on the wash-house table—he asked me whether I had got it all right—I said that I believed I had—he said "Where's Jos?"—I said "I do not know; he promised to wait for me at Burlington Arcade, and he had gone when I came out, so I thought perhaps he had come back to you"—he said "No, I have not seen him"—Hilton came in about 10 o'clock; Down and I were then in the washhouse—he said "Oh, here you are "—I said "Where have you been to; I have missed you"—he said "I missed you; I went to the pub and I thought I had missed you"—he asked me "If I had got the money?"—I said "Yes, what are you in such a flurry about"——Down said "Here it is," on the table—Hilton sat down on the only chair they had got, moved the cups and saucers back, turned the money out on the table and counted it—when he had done that he gave Down several bank notes; I do not know whether he gave them all—Hilton said to Down "That squares up my account with you?"—Hilton put the gold in his pocket; I do not know what became of the purse; I afterwards saw Hilton take the money out of his pocket and give it to his wife—he then said that the last train had gone—Down said "I must go to night"—Hilton said "There is a place for either one or other of you to sleep"—Down went away and I stayed—it was then past 11 o'clock—I slept on some rags in a corner—there was no furniture in the room—I was aroused at 6 o'clock a.m. by Hilton, and had some breakfast—Hilton saw me to the station and I went on to my father's office—I was at work the rest of that day, and on the next day, the 11th; I went to see a friend off from

Blackwall, who was going to India, and as I passed through the Royal Exchange, on my way back I saw Hilton and his wife getting out of a cab—that was from 3 to 4 o'clock in the afternoon—I shook hands with him and asked him whether he had seen Down—he said "No, I hare not seen him"—they walked in the direction of Liverpool Street, and I accompanied them—he asked me to have something to drink—we went into a public-house in Bishopsgate Street, and Hilton ordered a glass of beer and some brandy and water—while we were there Hilton asked the barman for change for a 5l. note, which he took out of his inside pocket; the barman asked for the name and address to be written on the back of the note—it is not true that I took that 5l. note from my pocket and handed it to Hilton, and asked him to get it changed for me, nor that I wrote my name and address on it—it was Hilton who wrote on it—I cannot say whether this is the note—I do not remember ever having seen it, and I do not know the writing on it—it is not my writing; I did not see what it was that Hilton wrote on it in the public-house—it was given to the barman, and the change was handed to Hilton—when we got outside Hilton gave me 7s., and said that Down told him to give it to me—I said "I thought you had not seen him"—he said "That was sometime ago, but I forgot to give it to you"—I bade them "Good-bye "and left them—I was afterwards taken in custody by Sergeant Butcher; I believe it was on the 21st—I then made a statement to him and a voluntary statement afterwards—I was charged before the Magistrate, admitted to bail and ultimately gave evidence as a witness.

Cross-examined. I said before the Magistrate, that with regard to the cheque I received my instructions from Hilton—I had never changed a cheque for Hilton before—I did not hear Hilton say that he had negotiated a reversionary interest for Down—Down told me that Hilton married Down's sister—Down's conduct appeared to me to be quite open—I do not know Hilton's writing, I had never seen it—but I saw him write something on the back of the note—I do not know what Down's coat was wanted for, but Hilton said that I looked shabby.

Cross-examined by Hilton. I swear that I got to your house by 8.30 or 9 o'clock—I could almost swear that it was not 6 o'clock—I never told Mrs. Hilton that Charles had sent me with 10l. to you, and would give you 5l. more next day if you met him at the Exchange, at 4 o'clock—I was not in your house at 6 or 7 o'clock—I do not remember walking with you to try to catch the train at 6.20 or 7.20—I remember something about Down telling you something before, that he was going to lend you 15l.—I did not ask for change for the 5l. note at the public-house—I do not remember mentioning about the 5l. note at the police-court.

Re-examined. These three post-cards (produced) are mine—They are in my ordinary writing.

WILLIAM HENRY LOWNES . I am a clerk in the western branch of the Bank of England—George Samuel Hall keeps a drawing account there—on Tuesday, 9th May, a person who I do not know and could not recognise now brought me a cheque—I referred it to my principal and also compared it with the signature of Mr. Hall—I ultimately paid it with eight 5l. notes, 71450 to 71457 inclusive, and the remainder in gold—I cannot tell youths date of the notes.

Cross-examined by Hilton. I cannot tell you at what time the cheque was cashed, I could if I had brought the book, within an hour or so; I think it

was in the afternoon—I do not remember seeing you till I saw you at the police-court.

GEORGE SAMUEL HALL . I am a partner in the firm of Vickers & Co of Victoria Street, Westminster—I keep a drawing account at the western branch of the Bank of England—this cheque is not in my writing or written by my authority—I know Hilton—I first became acquainted with him at Christmas last year—he spoke to me about making an advance to him on his wife's reversion under the will of Colonel Hutchinson and proposed to give me a policy on his wife's life, but I found that bis wife, or the lady who passed as his wife, was under age, and it was not completed—I lent his mother-in-law on the 11th January by cheque, on one of the ordinary forms, 50l., and on the 2nd February I advanced him 25l. by cheque on the usual form—Hilton introduced Down to me in February and Down asked me to purchase his reversion, which I did. and made him various advances, all of them by cheque, except the deposit under the contract—he had 50l. on 24th February, 25l. on 1st March, 20l. on 7th March, and 10l. on 6th April—the purchase was 100l., but I subsequently lent him 15l. because he said he bad taken a tobacconist's business and wanted a little help—every one of these advances was made by cheque with my usual signature—I have banked with the bank nearly four years and have never but once sent a plain cheque and that was not in a transaction with Down or Hilton—all the cheques to them were on the ordinary forms—Down sent me two I O U's which were irregular, not being stamped; they included a promise to pay, and therefore I sent them back to be stamped; one was for 10l. and one for 5l.—I afterwards got from Downs these two I O U's (produced) for 10l. and 5l., dated 12th April—that was the last transaction I had with him, and the last transaction with Hilton was 25l. on the 2nd February—my impression is that the body of this cheque is in Down's writing—on comparing, his I O U's with it there is a very great similarity.

Cross-examined by MR. M. WILLIAMS. I only know Down through Hilton and Down's mother—I gave Hilton the cheques because he asked me to let him have 10l. on two joint notes.

Cross-examined by Hilton. I lent you 15l. since the completion of the reversion and the other was before Down's reversion was purchased.

EMMA GOLDSPINK . I live with my father and mother at 22, Wood Street, Chelsea—I have been acquainted with Down four or jive years—the acquaintance commenced when I lived in service at his mother's house—I remember when he was living at Stafford Place, Buckingham Palace Road—I have visited him from time to time and he has come to see me at home—he told me that when he was twenty-one years he had some money coming to him—he came of age on 2nd February this year—after that he told we that he was going to sell what he was entitled to to Mr. Hall, to whom he was introduced by his brother-in-law, Josh Hilton—he asked me if I would manage a cigar business for him—I said I would not—I remember whilst he was at Stafford Place, Down calling and saying that he was going down to Forest Gate to see Josh—I think that was in May—he said that Josh owed him some money and was going to pay him—from that time I did not see Down till Tuesday, May 9th, when he came to my father's house about 5 o'clock in the afternoon and asked me to go to Charlie Williams and inquire whether he had been at his lodgings, and also at Williams' father's—Down. was then wearing Charlie Williams' coat—I went to 11, Hope Terrace, but could not find Williams there—I then went to Cedar Terrace and Could not

find him there—I then went back to Wood Street and told Down that I could not find him—Down had some tea and went away saying that he was going to see Josh; that was about 6 o'clock, and about an hour after that Charlie Williams came—I was aroused from my sleep about 3 o'clock in the morning and went down and found Down at the door—I let him in and sad "What makes you come here so late"—he said that he had lost the last train and had come from Forest Gate in a cab—I asked him how he paid for the cab if he had not any monoy"—he told me his brother-in-law had paid him some money and said "Will you go out for me in the morning and change me two 5l. notes and get me a suit of clothes?"—I said that I would—he was still wearing Williams' coat—I asked him if he had seen Williams and he said he had—after I had brought him some clothes he took off the coat and I took charge of it and produce it here—I made a bed for him on a chair and ho slept there—he gave me two 5l. notes in the morning and I went and changed one at the Red House public-house—he told me any name would do to give when I changed the notes and I gave that one addressed 113, Church Street—I then went to Skinner's, the tailors, and bought some clothes which came to 2l. and I gave the address, Charles Street, Trevor Square—I took the clothes home and the change of both notes and banded them to Down—he put the clothes on and did not like them—he said they were common—we then went out for a walk and went to Mr. Campbell's, a jeweller, where he bought me a pair of earrings for 1l. 15s. 6d. and paid with a 5l. note—he also bought a watch for 1l. 7s. 6d.—I do not remember what he gave, I did not see him write on the note—he got change of another 5l. at that shop—we then left and went towards the Prince of Wales tavern, where one of my sisters lives, and on our way there Down said "My brother-in-law, Josh, has got me into trouble, he has forged Mr. Hall's name to a cheque and paid me the money he owed me, he told me he would pay me tomorrow out of Eva's reversion" (meaning his sister's)—I think he said it was 48l. that Josh owed him—I said "Did you do it"—he said "I swear solemnly before my God that I never wrote that cheque"—he said Josh had given him seven notes and had kept the gold himself—he also said "Josh has done it before lots of times," meaning writing cheques and changing them with different tradespeople—when he said that Josh had done it before he said that his sisters had lent him money to pay it back and that the "cheque was written at Josh's aunt's—Down asked me to get him a room and I got him one at 1, Hans Terrace, Paulton Square, in the name of Beckley—he had told me that he would go by that name at the new lodging—I paid a week's rent in advance—I then went home and Mrs. Hilton called and made an inquiry in consequence of which I went with her to my sister at tie Prince of Wales tavern—Mrs. Hilton then said something to me and I turned round and saw Williams behind me—I saw Down there sitting in a room—we went in there and Mrs. Hilton said in Down's presence "Charles, you are a fool if you don't go to Jersey"—she then said to me "Emma, you ought to go with him, if you don't you ought to be ashamed of yourself, as it is sure to be found out that Josh really did it; is it likely a man would put his own name on—a forged cheque?"—this was on the same day that I changed the notes—Down said "I am not going to Jersey"—Mrs. Hilton then said "Give Emma the money and there will be no suspicion on board"—Down and I then went to Hans Terrace, where I left him—I saw him there from day to day, and on 18th May I went with him to Childs', the pawnbroker's, where he pawned the earrings

for 15s., which he had given to me on the 10th—we then went to Withers', in the King's Road,—where I pawned the suit of clothes which I had bought on the 10th, for 1l. 5s. in the name of Beckley and gave the money to Down.

Cross-examined by Hilton. Williams did not come to my place at 9 o'clock and say that he had been to Forest Gate, and had not seen Down—I never saw Williams but once that evening; that I swear; and it was between 6 and 7 when he came, and not at 9 o'clock.

SARAH MOWBRAY . I live at 11, Hope Terrace, Walham Green—Williams took a room there at 2s. a week—I saw Hilton there three times before he was at the police-court—he called alone and asked for Williams—I cannot say that I know Down, but when Hilton called on 9th May,—Williams was there with another man—Hilton asked "If Williams was at home?"——I said that he was not—I thought he was not, but while I was speaking, he and another young man came out of his room, and the-young man said to Hilton "I have been two hours and I have only just found the fellow"—I do not think Hilton replied to that, but he went into Williams' room and shut the door—that was about 2 p.m.—tliey were in the room-together about half an hour—Hilton and Williams afterwards left, and I think they left together—Williams was then wearing a light coat, which I had not seen him wear before, but I had an impression that I had seen somebody else wearing it; the young man I had seen with Williams—after they left I went into the passage and saw a young man with, Williams' door open it was almost momentary; he appeared to be wearing a dark coat—Williams was in the habit of wearing a rather dark coat—I saw Williams again about 4 o'clock 4.30.—he rapped at the door; I answered it; and he went into his room—I do not know whether any one was there—he left almost directly, tout he came to me before he left—after he left, Emma Goldspink called and made an inquiry, which I answered, and—she left—two or three days after that Hilton called and asked for Williams—I told him he was not in—he asked me if I knew where he was; and I directed him to his father's—I asked his name—he said that he thought Williams did not know his name, and—I was to say that a stout gentleman called I afterwards saw Williams.

Cross-examined by Hilton. It might been past 2 o'clock on the 9th when you called—I will swear it was not at 12 o'clock—I am sure it was Williams who I saw go out with you—it was past 4 o'clock when Williams came back, and it might been an hour after when Goldspink called—that would bring it to past 5 o'clock.

CHARLES WEEBLE . I am barman at the Red House—I remember Goldspink coming there one morning at 8.30.—she asked me to change a. 5l. note—I had not sufficient and I took her to Mr. Hamilton, who gave her the change—she gave him an address which he put on the note.

CLAUDE WILLIAM HAMILTON . I assist my father at the Red-House,' Chelsea—this note has on it, in my writing, "113, Church Street"—it was brought to me for cash—I cannot swear to Goldspink—I wrote on it the address given to me and put it away.

CHARLES SKINNER . I am a tailor at 27, Brompton Road—I sold a suit of clothes for 2l. to Emma Goldspink—she gave me a note in payment, and from what she told me, I wrote on the back of it "Charles Street, Trevor Square"—this is my writing. (The name was torn off.)

THOMAS TUNTSTALL CLARK . I am assistant to Mr. Campbell, pawnbroker, of 30, King's Road, Chelsea—on 10th May Down came with Goldspink and

bought a pair of gold earrings for 1l. 15s., and a watch for 1l. 17s. 6d.—he paid me with a 5l. note, and I changed another 5l. note for him—these are the notes—he wrote on them in my presence. (They were endorsed William Vincent, 330, Fulham Road.)

HENRY DEATH . I am manager to Mrs. Smith, who keeps the Black Lion, Bishopsgate Street Within—I have known Hilton three or four months as a customer—I remember his coming with a lady and gentleman—the lady was examined before the Magistrate—it was Mrs. Hilton—a gentleman was with them—Hilton called for what he wanted, and asked me to change a 5l. note—I said that I would if he endorsed it—I gave him a pen and ink, and he wrote on the back of it—I cannot swear that this (produced) is the note, but this note has been in my possession, as I find some of my writing on it—I saw what he wrote at the time, but it is so long ago that I do not remember—I did not know his name at the time—I paid it away to a gas company.

Cross-examined by Hilton. You called on me with a detective, and asked if I remembered you—I said that I did, because you were stout—I put the pen and ink in front of you, but I will not swear that you endorsed it, as I left to go to the other end of the bar to get the change; but I believe you did, because you said you would, and I gave you the pen and ink to do it.

CHARLES BUTCHER . I am a detective sergeant—I took Williams on 21st May, and Down on 22nd, at a public-house at the waterside, Chelsea—I told him that I was a detective officer, and had a warrant to apprehend him—he asked my name; I said Butcher—he said "I heard two or three days ago that you were after me"—on the road to the station he said "I never wrote the cheque, but I was present when it was written, and I knew it was wrong. The person who wrote it told me that he would see Mr. Hall and make everything right, so that Mr. Hall nor no one should be the loser;" he said that there was a good deal of copying about the cheque before they could get the name right—he said "I had the notes and the other man had the gold"—I found on him a duplicate relating to the jewellery—on 13th June I took Hilton on a warrant, at 11 o'clock at night, at Stafford Villas, Forest Gate—I told him that I was a detective officer, and had a warrant to apprehend him of being concerned, with Charles Victor Cleghorn Down, his brother-in-law, in forging and uttering a cheque of 75l. on the Bank of England, Western Branch—he said "I never knew the cheque had been written, and I never wrote the cheque"—I said "You must have known that Mr. Down drew all the money he had got, and a little more, as you were present when the money was paid?"—he asked me what evidence there was against him, and how the warrant was obtained—I said "Williams has stated that he received all his instructions from you to go to the bank, and got you the money here, at this house, and you suggested the changing of the clothes, and also Down's pocket-book, to put the money in when you were at 11, Hope Terrace, Walham Green, and that you directed him which cashier to go to at the bank, and that the money was divided here, in your house, between yourself and Down"—he said "I never bad it, I only had 10l."—I said "There was one 5l. note changed in the City"—he said "Not by me; by Williams. I will prove to you it was not changed by me; I will show you the house, if you will allow me"—I said "Yes"—he afterwards took me to the Black Lion, Bishopsgate Street Within, and said to Mr. Death "Do you know me?"—he said "Yes"—Hilton said "Do

you remember me being in here about a month ago to change a note, and having a lady with me and a young man?"—he said "Yes"—I took him—to the station—Goldspink handed me this purse; it has "Charles Down" written inside it.

Cross-examined by Hilton. When you said, that you had 10l., you said you did not know that the money was fraudulently obtained—Williams had mentioned your name to me, but he did not say that you had done it in a fraudulent way.

W. H. LOWNES (re-examined). I have now got the bank-book—there were eight 5l. notes, Nos. 71,450 to 71,457, inclusive, dated 15th February, 1876, and from the position in the book I think I may safely say that I paid them between 2.30 and 3.30.

Hilton called.

HERBERT JOHN SAWTER . I am a grocer of Forest Gate—I know Down—he came to me on the 8th, in the morning, and told me he was going to get a cheque; and on the same evening he sent up for me to Hilton's house, shut the door and told me not to tell Hilton how much the cheque was for—it was for 75l.—this is it—I met Hilton next afternoon or evening coming coming up Odessa Road at 6 p.m.—I know it was about 6 o'clock, because I had just come from the station and had seen some one off by the train—the door of your house was opened by Mrs. Hilton when I left, and you said "Has Charles been here?" she said "No," and I watched—you right into Stratford because I thought you had told me a falsehood, but you did not know it—you went with Williams to Maryland Point-Station—I thought it was Down that owed the money, and I was looking out for. Down, because he owed me 2l.—my shop commands a view up the Odessa road, but I did not see Down that night—I am perfectly positive as to the time I saw Williams—it was about 6.30—Williams is wrong as regards the time when he says that it was 8.30 or 9 o'clock—I can bring witnesses to prove that I am bright—when—Down cashed the cheque he asked me particularly not to tell the amount—he asked me at first for 30l. upon it and the rest in the morning—he told me several times not to tell you.

Cross-examined by MR. M. WILLIAMS. I watched Hilton because I thought he had told me a falsehood—not seeing him all day I thought, perhaps, he knew that Down was at his place and had not seen him—I wanted to get my money—he said that he was going back to London that night—I had lent Down 2l. on the cheque—Hilton owes me some money, but it is not my business to tell you how much it is—am I bound to tell?—it is about 40l., partly for money lent and partly for goods—I was a witness before the Magistrate—Mrs. Hilton asked me to go there as Mr. Butcher was going to take him—I told him on the evening of the 9th that Down had brought me the 75l. cheque—that was not the evening before he was taken—I told him because Down had not sent me the money he owed me, and I thought it was very hard when he had 17l. and had not paid meand he was going to hand Hilton money—I do not know that Hilton owed Down money—I asked Hilton if he knew how much, the cheque was for, and he said "For 25l."—I said "No; I will take all you owe me, the balance, over 25l.;"—he said "Is it for 100l.?"—I said "No;"—he said "Is it 80l.?"—I said "No;"—he said "Is it 75l.?" and then I said "Yes"—Hilton paid me the 2l. next morning—I asked him for it, because Down made an arrangement that if he did not give it to me he would send it by Hilton—I did not tell Hilton that I had arranged that if Down did not pay me Hilton

should—I asked Hilton if he had seen Down, and he said "He has sent you some money"—he owed me a shilling or two more—I had made one book up and started another—I would not let him have any more goods on account—he owed me a small sum on the clearing up of the week.

Cross-examined by MR. POLAND. After I was examined before the Magistrate I may have said that I had not told all I knew about the matter—I said that I knew of several other little items—I did not refuse to tell what more I knew—I did say that I would not tell until I got into the witness-box here—I did not tell because I was not asked—I have cashed cheques on the Bank of England before for Hilton—I did not think it strange his bringing an open cheque for 75l. because I knew him—I said to Down "You wrote this yourself"—he said "No; one of Mr. Hall's clerks wrote it, and I signed it"—I knew Down before, and knew that he was selling a reversionary interest—I saw no account in the newspaper about Down being taken up, till Hilton showed it to me—Hilton did not say "It is rather hard that Williams should be taken up, because the poor boy knows nothing about it"—he said "It was rather hard to lead the poor boy, Williams, into it"—the conversation was at Hilton's house—I am not in the habit of visiting him, only on business accounts—I asked him if he could pay a little off what he owed me, and if he had seen any more of that in the paper, and said what a, good job it was I had not changed the cheque, for I should have been let in for the whole lot—he said it was a shame, and that lie would rather have heard of the boy's death than that he should have gone and done such a thing as that; I gathered from that that the boy was guilty, and that he was properly taken into custody—I did not say at any time "It is a great shame; I know that poor boy, Williams, knows nothing about it"—he did not say it exactly as you have got it; I cannot recollect the words; it was something similar to the same.

Re-examined by Hilton. You owe me for money and groceries to the amount of 40l.—I agreed to wait for that till you got a sum from Mr. Hall next October—you were going to pay me some time ago, when I thought I should have had Mrs. Hilton's reversion money, but she was not of age till October, and I agreed to wait.

EVA CROMPTON DOWN . I am not married to Hilton—Down is my brother.

By MR. M. WILLIAMS. I have never produced a certificate of my marriage to my mother, or to anybody, nor what I stated to be a certificate of marriage.

By the prisoner Hilton. I remember my brother coming to our house two or three days before the cheque was cashed—he said he owed his landlady some money, and could not go back until he had come to pay her, and that he owed a person in Buckingham Palace Road money, and had given that man a cheque on the London and Westminster Bank, and that he was frightened of the man coming after him, and that he was going to get some money from Mr. Hall, 25l.—he showed us a letter to that effect, and said he would lend me 15l. of it to enable Mr. Hilton to take up two cheque, which he had given my brother Charles the money for—he came back en Monday evening, the 8th, and said that he had got the cheque from Mr. Hall, and would go to Mr. Sawter to try and get it cashed, which he did, and got 2l. on it—he slept there that night, and left next morning by the 9.20 train—I remember Williams coming to Forest Gate on the evening of the 9th, from 4 to 7 o'clock, I should think, but I cannot say exactly—he

brought from my brother 10l., less a few shillings, and a message that we were to meet Charles and himself the next day at; the Royal Exchange, and he would give us the other 5l.—Hilton came in shortly afterwards, and Williams told me the same—Williams then went out to, go to the station; he was not in the house more than half an hour, and he caught the next train back—the trains go every hour up to 10 p.m.—Willams statemeet that he was there at a later hour is a falsehood, and his statement about my brother is a falsehood—we went to the Royal Exchange next day about 4 o'clock, and met Williams—we waited a little time, but Down, did not come—Williams asked Hilton if he knew where he could get cahange for a 5l. note—Hilton said "You know lots of places who would give change for a note—we then went into a tavern in Bishopsgate Street, where there was a very large bar, and had some brandy and water which paid for—Hilton asked the landlord if he could change a 5l. note—he replied "Yes and sent for a pen and ink, and Williams put his name on it while the landlord went for the cash—I can swear that Williams wrote on it, but I did not see what he wrote—Williams than gave Hilton a half so vergin, and Hilton gave him a few shillings, which he had borrowed the night before—I never said to my brother, Charles, "You are a fool if you dont go to Jersey;" nor did I say to Goldspink, "Emma, you ought to go with him, if not you ought to be ashamed, of yourself"—I never saw her till I saw her at the other Court—Hilton borrowed 40l., of my sister—he pays interest for it and I have never had a penny of it since I was fifteen years old.

Cross-examined by MR. M. WILLIAMS. I have been with Hilton about two years—I knew, him by no, other name but his and Hilton—his own name is Redhead, but he takes the name of Hilton to shield me, because I cannot be married to him yet—I cannot swear that he has got a wife, but there is something which prevents it—his name is William, Elwys Redhead—I think Elwys is one of his, surnames—I have not known him pass as Elwys only with me—he did not live in the house in the name Of Elwys; it was me—Goldspink was my mother's servant—I have not walked down any street with her. after me—I never saw her, after she left my mother's service—I never said "It is sure to be found out; Josh really did it; but is it likely a man would put his own name; on a forged cheque if he had really done it?"—I was not in Court during Goldspink's evidence—if she has said that, it is utterly untrue I did not say "The detectives are watching us, but I have dodged them"—nor did I say "You had better go to Jersey"—every word of that is untrue—I know Sawter—I did not tell him that the detectives, were watching me—but he came and told me that there were two men at the bottom of the street and he though they were about our furniture—we had furniture in the house at Forest Gate—it was there when Williams came—he saw nothing but the kitchen and the passage, and they were thoroughly furnished—he did not sleep there that night—no one slept there but Hilton and myself—there was no room there in which there was a bundle of rags in a corner—that must be all a fabrication.

Cross-examined by MR. POLAND. My brother Charles had been staying at Forest Gate two or three days before the 9th May I do not know whether you will call it sleeping there—he sat up in a chair for probably three nights, and on the morning of the 9th he left by the 9.20 train, and I never saw him again till I saw him here—Hilton did not go up to town on the 9th—he went to Stratford and came back between 4 and 7 o'clock; I cannot say

nearer than that—he went to the landlord to put him off—I do not know that he went up to town and saw my brother—I was under the impression that he never saw him after he left in the evening—when we went to this public-house the note was laid on the counter, and I passed it from Williams to Hilton—I cannot say who put it on the counter—I saw a pen and ink brought, but Hilton did not take the pen up; it was Williams; and I saw him writing, but I cannot say what he wrote—I was talking at the time.

Re-examined. Hilton had arranged to go into partnership with a man if he got the money, and I have the agreement in my pocket now—he gave the man a bill of sale on the furniture, and he came and sold us up—that is the reason we had no furniture in the house—he owed no one money who would not wait—they were all willing to wait.

Hilton in his defence stated that he was married at seventeen years of age, to a woman who he never lived with, but parted from a few hours afterwards, and therefore he was not able to marry Down's sister who was living with him.; that Down had a 45l. bill, which he asked him to accept, and could not get discounted, and he paid it into his bankers, and drew two cheques, but the bankers would—not discount the bill; that Down told him Mrs. General Hulchinson. was going to let him have 100l. in a short time, and he drew a bill, but failed to get it discounted; that Downn said he would lend him 15l., which was paid in two cheques, and asked him to step up to Mr. Sawter, the groser, to cash one of than, and he contended that it was not likely that Down should have asked the grocer not to mention the amount; being very stout he pointed out, that his coat would not be likely to fit Williams, and he stated that be never saw a cheque at Hope Terrace, and never made any suggestion about the coat or the pocket-book; that he waited some hours in Bishopsgate Street, for Williams, who never came, that When he took the detective to the public-house it was in the hope that the publican would remember Williams, and he contended that if there was any conspiracy it was between Down and William, and not with himself, and stated that he never knew the cheque had been forged.

MR. HALL (re-examined). I belive this acceptance (produced by Hilton) is in Down's writing.

CHARLES BUTCHER (re-examined). I get this other bill (produced) from a public-house in Buckingham Palace Road—Williams can tell you all about that.

EVA CROMPTON DOWN (re-examined). This is my signature to one of these bills, and the other is Hilton's—I have a receipt at home similar to this signed by Charles. (This was a receipt for 42l. by the witness and her brother Charles, to which they would have a right at Mrs. Down's death, being a reversion under the will of the late Colonel Hutchinson.)

GUILTY The Jury recommended Down to mercy, believing him to have been the tool of Hilton.

DOWN— Eighteen Months' Imprisonment.

HILTON— Five Years' Penal Servitude.