Old Bailey Proceedings Online (www.oldbaileyonline.org, version 8.0, 01 December 2021), February 1800, trial of THOMAS CAWDLE THOMAS RUDD (t18000219-49).

THOMAS CAWDLE, THOMAS RUDD, Theft > grand larceny, 19th February 1800.

207. THOMAS CAWDLE and THOMAS RUDD were indicted for feloniously stealing, on the 1st of February , a canvas bag, value 6d. and one hundred and twelve pounds of sugar, value 3l. the property of John Hammond and Charles Hammond .

(The case was opened by Mr. Knowlys).

JOHN READ sworn. - I am a city constable: I know the prisoners; I knew Rudd before this happened; on the 1st of February I saw them both with another person, between six and seven in the evening; I was going down London-wall; the prisoner, Cawdle passed me with a bag upon his shoulder, Cawdle is the tallest of the men; I went a few yards, and Rudd and another man passed me; I followed, thinking I knew their faces; I then turned back and came up to Rudd again, and the other person; I then looked at them, and I was thoroughly satisfied that they were the faces of men that I knew; upon that I made the best of my way to Cawdle; I laid hold of the bag, and said to him, my good fellow, what have you got there; he said it was sugar; I asked him if he had a bill or receipt of it; he said, yes; I then told him I was an officer; he said, d-n you, what was that to him; then up came Rudd and the other man, at the corner of Basinghall-street, the London-wall end, towards Wood-street; Rudd and the other had parted; one came before and the other behind me; I said to Rudd, you keep off, for I know you well; I then had hold of the bag; then the man that was with Rudd came up and struck me between the shoulders; some people then came down Basinghall-street towards London-wall, and Cawdle pitched his load upon me, but luckily missed me, or else it must have broke my legs, then they all three made their escape towards Fore-street; they all made off in one company; the bag I took home with the assistance of a porter. (Produces it.)

Q. How long before this had you known Rudd? - A. For two months.

Q. Can you possibly be mistaken that he is the man that was with Cawdle and the other? - A. I cannot.

Q. Are you sure Cawdle was one of the men? - A. I had my eye upon him for three minutes, and from his height and his face, I think he 1s. After I had taken the sugar home, I met Sansum; told him this story; On the Monday night following, about seven o'clock, I saw the same three men in Bishopsgate-street again, in company together, coming from the Bull Inn; we looked at them some time; they were following the Walthamstow errandcart, which goes from the Bull Inn; I immediately went up to Rudd; Cawdle perceived me before I came up to him; he went side to buy a halfpennyworth of apples; I went to look at him full, with the light before him; I went away again to Sansum who was about six yards off; they went on further then, as far as Old Bethlem; we saw them cross several times by the cart, and then we stopped them; we took Cawdle and Rudd, and the other made his escape, upon taking them, I asked them where they were on Saturday night, at ten o'clock; Rudd said, he was in Brick-lane, Old-street, Smoking his pipe, and Cawdle said he was in bed at that time, at a public-house, in Brick-lane.

Cross-examined by Mr. Alley. Q. What time of the night was this? - A. Between six and seven o'clock.

Q. It was then dark? - A. Yes.

Q. Cawdle you knew nothing of before? - A. No.

Q. I take it, you went, on the Friday morning, to my Lord-Mayor, and gave information of the prisoners at the bar? - A. Yes.

Q. Did you give their names? - A. No, I did not.

Q. And why did you not? - A. I told the Lord-Mayor how I had proceeded, and told him I should be able to get them.

Q.Had Cawdle a round hat on? - A. Yes.

Q. And yet you mean to swear that you knew the man again? - A. He had his hat in his hand.

Q. On the Monday, while he was buying some apples, you went up to look at Cawdle, and therefore you were not sure that he was the man? - A.Yes, I knew him, but I was willing to be thoroughly satisfied; I am sure Rudd was one of the persons, and I never saw two faces more alike than that man's, and the face of Cawdle; I never saw another man like him; I must be greatly deceived if that is not the man.

Mr. Knowlys. Q. Have you any doubt but Cawdle is the other man? - A. No, I have not.

Q. Was there a light at this apple-stall? - A. Yes.

Q.Therefore you had a better opportunity of seeing whether he was the man that you had been on the Saturday night? - A. Yes.

JAMES-CHARLES SANSUM sworn. - I am a constable; I was in company with Read, on the Monday evening, when the two prisoners were apprehended; as we turned from London-Wall, towards the Bull-inn, Read and I saw the Waltham slow errand-cart in the middle of the street, going towards Shoreditch, and almost directly, we perceived the two prisoners, and another man, that they call Ginger, he got away from me, when I apprehended Rudd; we followed them on the pavement, as they were in the road, they were walking behind the errand-cart; I then turned short round to follow them, and observed that they came away from the cart, on the pavement; Cawdle went and bought some apples; Read went to the light, and looked at him two or three times backwards and forwards; he immediately said, that is he, and I seized him, and delivered him to Read, while I pursued after Rudd; Ruff had got a little way on; I seized him; little Ginger was before him, and I desired another man to lay hold of him, but he got away; I took them into a tobacconist's shop, to the light, and Read there said, they were the men that he had stopped with the parcel on Saturday night; I asked Cawdle where he was at ten o'clock on Saturday night; Cawdle said he was in bed, I think, and Rudd said he was smoking his pipe, in Brick-lane.

Q. Did you know the persons of Cawdle and Rudd before that time? - A. Rudd I knew well, and I have met Cawdle several times in the street.

Q. Was he a man whom you knew, if you saw him? - A. Just so; on the Saturday before this, I was going down Bishopgate-street, about six o'clock, and saw Cawdle, Rudd, and another man in company together, nearly opposite to the Bullinn.

CHARLES RAINFORD sworn. - Examined by Mr. Knowlys. Q. I am in the service of Messrs Frampton and Company, they are wholesale grocers, in Leadenhall-street; on the 1st of February, about twelve o'clock in the day, I sent this bag to the waggoner 's, the direction on the package is my hand-writing, it is directed W. T. N. M. which means William Thorpe, New-market; it was to go by Hammond's waggon, from the Bull inn, Bishopsgate-street, I sent it by one of our carmen, I had a receipt of the book-keeper for it,(produces it); the package contains sugar.

JAMES MULLER sworn. - Examined by Mr. Knowlys. I am a book-keeper to the Newmarket waggon, which goes from the Bull-inn, in Bishopsgate-street; I received this parcel on the 1st of February, this is my receipt for it, in my handwriting, there were four bags like this.

Q. What are the names of the proprietors of the waggon? - A. John Hammond and Charles Hammond .

Q. From being booked, I believe, they become answerable for the loss? - A. They do.

Q. Were they booked? - A. They were.

Q. About what time does the Newmarket waggon go off? - A. It went out of our yard between four and five in the afternoon, the parcel was delivered to the waggon in due course.

Rainford. The value of it is about three pounds.

Mr. Alley. (To Muller.) Q. You do not know, of your own knowledge, that the bags were not all delivered at Newmartket? - A. Yes, I do, for I found the rope cut, and one of the bags missing.

Cowdle's defence. I am intirely innocent of the robbery; at the time he says the robbery was committed, I was at a public-house, in Brick-lane.

Rudd's defence. I am quite innocent; I was at a public-house, in Golden-lane, at the time.

For the Prisoners.

SARAH CLARKE sworn. - Examined by Mr. Alley. My husband is a shoemaker, I know both the prisoners; I heard that they were charged with committing the robbery on the 1st of February.

Q. Do you remember being any where yourself on the 1st of February? - A. Yes; at Mr. Dean's house, the Angel and Porter, in Golden-lane; I had the care of the house, it is a relation of mine that keeps it, my place is to serve in the bar; I saw the two prisoners in the tap-room; I saw them from five o'clock in the evening, till about nine, they were both in company; on the Monday following, I heard of their being taken into custody, I was very much surprised, and said, it was impossible it should be one the Saturday night, because they were in our house at the time.

Q. Were you in the bar during the whole of that evening? - A. Yes, I never go out; Cawdle went out backwards about nine o'clock, and came in again, and asked me for a glass of rum, for he had a pain in his bowels, and he would go home to bed directly; I said, what, would you go home so soon of a Saturday night, and he said, yes; Rudd staid some time after Cawdle was gone.

Cross-examined by Mr. Knowlys. Q. This public house is in Brick-lane, is it not? - A. Yes.

Q. You mean Brick-lane? - A. No, Golden-lane.

Q. I thought it had - you have known these young men a long time? - A. Some time; Cawdle has lodged at a mother's of mine, for these six months; I have known Rudd for these twelve months, by fight.

Q. As a man, coming every day to your house? - A. Not every day.

Q. Had he been constant at that public-house, within the last three months? - A. Yes, backwards and forwards.

Q. Constantly for the last three months? - A. No, he was not a constant customer.

Q. Do you mean to say he was any thing like once a week, for the three last months? - A. No, I cannot say for the last three months.

Q. Were Cawdle and Rudd well acquainted with each other? - A. That I cannot tell you; they knew each other; they have sometimes been in, and drank out of a pot together; that is all I know.

Q. Were they acquainted together? - A. They have been drinking together.

Q. Upon your oath, were these two persons acquainted, aye, or no? - A. I have seen them drinking together, I cannot be answerable any further, they might be acquainted with each other when they drank together.

Q. Were they not frequently in company together? - A. No; they were that night.

Q. Had they never drank together before that? - A. I cannot say.

Q. Then how dared you to say they often drank together? - A. I cannot be answerable for that, they have sometimes.

Q. Have they frequently drank together in that house, aye or no? - A. They have drank together.

Q. As you were sitting in the bar, you could tell whether two persons, that came in together, drank together or not? - A. They did that night.

Q. But I am asking about other night? - A. I cannot say.

Q. Do you not know that they have often drank together? - A. Yes, but they have had separate pints of beer.

Q. How long have you known Mr. Ginger? - A. I do not know what you mean.

Q. Do you know a Mr. Ginger? - A. No; I do not know such a name.

Q. Was there any such person in their company on the Saturday evening? - A. Not that I know of; Rudd was smoking his pipe, and he was complaining of a pain in his bowels all the evening.

Q. All the evening? - A. Several times in the evening.

Q. When did he say that first? - A. About six o'clock; I warmed some beer for him.

Q. Was there any body else in the same box? - A. Yes; there was Mr. Stone, part of the time, in the same box; and afterward he went out and sat in another box.

Q. Was there any body else in the same box? - A. No; there was nobody else in the same box.

Q. As you observed them so particularly that night you must know? - A. I did not see anybody else there.

Q. What was there particular to draw your attention to Saturday the 1st of February? - A. Because we are always slack in the tap-room on a Saturday night, and I heard on the Monday that he had been taken up.

Q. Who told you they were taken up? - A. I cannot say; it was somebody that came in.

Q. Who is the owner of this house? - A. Mr. Dean.

Q. Was he there? - A. No; he has so much to do on a Saturday night, in the kitchen, amongst the brewer's servants, backwards, that he seldom comes into the tap-room on a Saturday.

Q. Was your mother there? - A. No, only myself.

Q. What business is Cawdle? - A. A jeweller.

Q. What business is Stone? - A. A glass-grinder; he has worked for Mr. Seddons seventeen years.

Q. What relation is Mrs. Dean to you? - A. Sister-in-law.

Q. Was she there? - A. No; Cawdle's brother came in about half past nine o'clock, and he was gone; I told him he was gone home very poorly.

JAMES STONE sworn. - Examined by Mr. Alley. I am a glass-grinder: I know both the prisoners by fight; I was at Mr. Dean's house when I saw both the prisoners, on Saturday the 1st of this month; I first saw Cawdle, between four and five o'clock, I was not particularly acquainted with him; I staid there till ten minutes before seven, he was there all that time, I left him there; and I saw the other prisoner there several times before seven; I returned to the public-house a little before eight, and paid him a shilling, that I owed him for a pair of gaters that I had contracted with him for; I did not stop then five minutes, I paid the landlord.

Cross-examined by Mr. Knowlys. Q. You paid the landlord? - A. Yes.

Q. He was in the bar? - A. Yes; at different times I saw him, but not so much as Mary Clarke .

Q. You are sure you saw him in the bar? - A. Yes, at different times; he is generally backwards on a Saturday; I paid him backwards.

Q. Did you not tell me that the landlord wasbackwards and forwards in the bar? - A. Yes; so he was in the course of the day.

Q. Was he backwards and forwards at the bar in the evening? - A. Not to my knowledge.

Q. Upon your oath, was he not in the bar? - A. I think I saw him once or twice; I could not swear whether he was or was not.

Q. Is Cawdle often there? - A. I seldom go only on a Saturday.

Q. Is Cawdle often there? - A. I do not think I saw him three times in my life, only that day in particular.

Q. How many months ago was that Saturday you speak of? - A. Not one yet; three weeks next Saturday; every Saturday night, at ten o'clock, my work is booked; I remember well that it was the 1st of February that I booked my work at night.

Q. How do you know it was Saturday the 1st of February above all other Saturdays; - what day is this? - A. This is Saturday.

Q. It happens to be Friday, I believe? - A. Our Saturdays are always Friday night, or Saturday morning: on the Tuesday following I went into that house, and heard that they had been taken up; I said, bless me, can that be the man that I bought my gaters of.

Q. Do you know when Cawdle was taken up? - A. I heard it on the Tuesday.

Q. How long have you known Rudd? - A. Only by seeing him that day, and once or twice before.

Q. How many boxes did you sit off from them that night? - A. The box they sat in was the next to the bar, it was a box or two off.

Q. How many else were there in that box? - A. I cannot say; there might be a shoe-maker, and a brewer's servant.

Q. In the same box? - A. I cannot say that.

Q. When were you applied to about this? - A. I spoke it open in the tap-room.

Q. How came you here to-day - did you tell the prisoners of it? - A. No.

Q. Did you go to them in jail? - A. No; Cawdle's mother came to me, and asked me if I was drinking with her sen on the Saturday; I said, no, I had not drank with him, I offered him a pint pot to drink, and he said he had a pain in his bowess.

Q. Have you no reason to know that this was the 1st of February but by your book? - A. No.

The prisoner, Cawdle, called two witnesses, who gave him a good character.

Cawdle, GUILTY .


Transported for seven years .

Tried by the London Jury, before Mr. RECORDER.