Old Bailey Proceedings Online (www.oldbaileyonline.org, version 8.0, 22 May 2019), May 1795, trial of SOLOMON IDSWELL (t17950520-26).

SOLOMON IDSWELL, Deception > forgery, 20th May 1795.

267. SOLOMON IDSWELL was indicted for that he, on the 1st of January , did falsely make, forge and counterfiet, and did cause and procure to be falsely made, forged and counterfeited, and did willingly act and assist in falsely making, forging and counterfeiting a certain stamp and mark, to resemble a stamp and mark directed to be used by a certain act of parliament made in the twenty-seventh year of his majesty's reign, being under the management of the commissioners for managing his majesty's stamp duties on parchment and vellum .

Indicted also in several other COUNTS for the like forgery, only varying the manner of charging it.

The indictment was opened by Mr. Trebeck and the case by Mr. Garrow.

(The witnesses examined apart.)


Q. Where do you live? - At Portsea, in Hampshire.

Q. That is near Portsmouth? - Yes.

Q. Do you know a Mr. Wolfe that lives there? - Yes.

Q. What is he? - A jeweller and dealer in slops, and a navy agent.

Q.What is the first name? - Gershon Wolfe.

Q.Does he in any part of his business, deal in seamens wills and powers? - As a navy agent he does.

Q. When was it you had first any transaction with Mr. Wolfe relative to any purchase of these instruments? - On the day after Christmas last, the 26th of December.

Q.How many did you purchase of them at that time? - Six.

Q. I do not ask you what conversationyou had with him. In consequence of any dealings that you had with Mr. Wolfe, did you afterwards communicate the suspicions that you had to the commissioners of the stamps? - I did.

Q.You sent that letter to London?(a letter shewn him) - I did.

Q. Look at these.(three wills and powers shewn him) - I have put a private mark on each of these.

Q.These three you purchased of Wolfe? - I did.

Q.That letter you addressed to the commissioners of the Stamp office? - I did.

Mr. Shepherd. Is there any mark by which you know they are the same you bought of Mr. Wolfe? - I have marked those, and they are also countermarked by another person; on each of those you will see the initials of my name at the top and the bottom.

Q. When did you put that? - At Mr. Escott's office, I was wrote for from Mr. Escott to come up to town, and bring what stamps I had.

Q. Do you mean to say that you put these marks before they were out of your custody? Where had they been? - Locked up in my desk, but they were in my custody till I came up.

Court. You marked them before you parted with them? - Yes, I did.


Q. You are assistant to the solicitor of the Stamp office? - Yes.

Q. When was it, in consequence of an order from the Stamp office and solicitor, that you went to Portsmouth? - On the 17th of February last.

Q. Did any body go with you? - Mr. Wood.

Q. Tell my lord, and these gentlemen, what you did when you came to Portsmouth? - In consequence of information being given to the commissioners of the stamps, it was thought necessary that some persons should go down to Portsmouth.

Q. And you went? - Yes. On my arrival, I went to the shop of Mr. Wolfe, and I found him in the shop, that shop was on the common herd in Portsmouth; we arrived there about nine in the morning.

Q. What time did you get to his house? - About eleven o'clock.

Q. There you see Wolfe himself; now, tell me what transaction you had with Wolfe? - I asked for a trifling article in the silversmith line, a tea caddy spoon; I bought that, and then asked him if he could inform me where I could get any seamens powers? He went into a back room, and brought a small quantity of seamens powers of attorney in his hand; and I said, I would have two. I asked the price? and he said, six shillings and threepence. I paid him twelve and sixpence for them.

Q. How many might there be of that parcel? - I believe about a quire.

Q. Which are the two that you bought? - These two. (Produced.)

Q. Did any thing more pass between you? - We immediately secured Mr. Wolfe, and then began to make a search for more.

Q. In consequence of your search, did you find any more similar to these that you had bought? - In consequence of that search, I found the stamps that I have here in a bureau, in a back parlour, behind the shop. (Produced.)

Q. All that quantity you found in a back part of the house? - Yes, about three hundred and fifty.

Q. Any more found in any other part of the house? - None.

Q. That was all that you then found, on search being made in the house? - Yes; Wolse was taken to Serjeant Carter, the magistrate, by Mr. Wood, and I remained in the house.

Q. And then you came to town together? - Yes, the same afternoon, and arrived in town early the next morning.

Q. In consequence of your arrival in town, where was Wolfe carried to? - Wolfe was carried to St. Giles's watch-house.

Q. In consequence of any information which you derived from him on the road, what did you next do? - We thought it necessary to secure him, and get some Bow-street officers, and go immediately to Moses's house, in Houndsditch.

Q. Where did the house turn out to be in fact? - In Gun-square, Houndsditch; he was in bed. We went to Gun-square, Houndsditch, and asked for Mr. Moses; he was in bed; we desired he might be sent for. He very shortly came down; and I then stepped out, and desired the officers to come in and secure him, which was done.

Q. When you took him into custody, what was done with him? - He remained there some short time.

Q. And, in consequence of examination or information of Moses, what did you next do? - The other officers and Wolfe, in company with one or two others, went and -

Q. Were you with them? - I was not; I staid with Moses.

Mr. Knowlys. Did you put any mark on these two, Mr. Whittard? - I have; you will see it at the right hand, in the corner.

Q. You did it at the time? - I did, on my arrival in town; they were not out of my custody when I did it.

Q. You made no search in Moses's house? - None.

Q. None was ever made, to your knowledge? - Not, to my knowledge.

Mr. Garrow. You knew that dswell Idswell was committed to custody? - Yes.

Q. You knew that he afterwards got from custody, and was shot? - Yes.

Q. You see him after he was dead? - Yes.

Q. The brother of the prisoner? - The brother of the prisoner, I understand. Here are twenty-three more, that were delivered to me after Mr. Wolfe was delivered to bail, which he found at Portsmouth after he got home.


Q. You are one of the officers of the public office at Bow-street? - Yes, I am.

Q. You went to the house of Moses? - I did.

Q. After you had apprehended Moses, and he was secured, where did you then go? - To St. Mary-axe.

Q.Describe the house as well as you can, to the gentlemen of the jury? - It was about eight doors from Gracechurch-street. on the right hand side.

Q. When you got into the house, what did you do there? - I went up one pair of stairs back room, and in the bed there was Idswell Idswell.

Q. Do you know whose house it was? - No, I don't know; then he got up, and put his clothes on, and we took him to Bow-street.

Q. Did you search the house, or any thing of that sort? - I did.

Q. When was it you went in pursuit of the prisoner at the bar? - On the 26th.

Q. Where did you find him? - No. 8, King-street Golden-square, on the ground floor, in a closet, a small little room behind the back parlour, just room enough for a bed.

Q. What time of the day, or night was it you went there? - Between eight and nine in the morning.

Q. There was a little bed in the closet? - Yes, he was in bed.

Q. Any other person there? - Not in the closet.

Q. What did you do with him? - We brought him to Bow-street.

Mr. Shepherd. The place where you found him, was in a bed room? - No, behind the back parlour; there is a shop, a back parlour, and a little room behind.

Q. For a bed? - For a bed.

Court. What o'clock in the morning was it? - About eight o'clock in the morning.

Prisoner. I wish to ask whether he searched the house of my brother? - Yes, I did.

Q. What did you find there? - A great many watches, and a badge that the messengers wear.

Court. You had better write your questions to your counsel, you have very able counsel.

Q. To witness. What do you mean by a badge? - The silver greyhound, what the King's messengers wear.

Q. Was not there a bed and bedstead in this room where you found him? - There was.

Q. It was a small room going behind the back parlour? - It was behind the back parlour.

Court. Was Idswell Idswell ever a messenger, do you know? - Not that I know of.

Mr. Garrow. I believe messengers are not of their persuasion.

Court. How long after the first was it before the second was apprehended? - Better than a week, I am not certain to a day.

Mr. Garrow. Had you been endeayouring to find him in the mean time? - I had.


Q. Where do you live? - At Portsmouth.

Q. What business do you carry on there? - A silversmith, and in the agency business.

Q. Agency of what sort? - Doing business for officers and seamen, in the navy.

Q. Do you know a person of the name of Joseph Moses ? - Yes.

Q. How long have you been acquainted with him? - I have known him for many years.

Q. Did you happen to be in London in the month of November, in the year 1794? - Yes.

Q. Did you see Moses? - I saw Moses.

Q. Mr. Wolfe, attend to what I am saying to you; I do not ask you what he said to you, or what you said to him. Where did you see him? - In Houndsditch, in the street, in London.

Q. Had any money transactions ever taken place between you and Moses? - Yes, he was in my debt twenty-five pounds, for which I had his note of hand.

Q. Did you meet him again after the first time you had conversation with him? - Yes, some time again, a few days after.

Q. Had you any conversation with him relating to stamps the first time? - Yes.

Q. When you met him the second time, had you any further conversation with him on the subject of stamps? - Yes, he put the same questions to me again.

Q. How soon after might you return to your own residence at Portsmouth? - I returned a few days after that.

Q. Did you at any time, after you had returned, in consequence of conversations you had with Moses, receive any stamps? - Yes, I did.

Q. When did you receive, as near as you can tell, the first parcel of them? - In the latter end of November, or the beginning of December.

Q.What sort of stamps were they that you received? - I received six shillingstamps, and six shilling assignments.

Q. Were they applicable to these powers? - Yes.

Q. And on these printed forms? - Yes.

Q. How many might you receive in the first parcel? - I believe ninety pounds worth.

Q.Were they all of the same sort, all applicable to the use of the navy? - Yes.

Q. How did you receive them, by what conveyance? - They came by the mail coach, or some other carriage.

Q. In what way did you pay for that first parcel; had you any letter of advice of them? - I had a letter in our language, which I have got here.

Q. In what way did you pay for that first order? - I paid a draft of fifty pounds.

Mr. Garrow. It is a Portsmouth and Hampshire bank bill, dated the 26th of December 1794, payable to witness or order, for fifty pounds, at fifteen days date, payable to Messrs. Fry and Co.

Q. After you had remitted this bill, what was the next thing you did? - There was another bill among it, a ten pounds draft, on Esdaile and Co. making it up sixty pounds.

Q. What was the next transaction you had with these stamps? - I gave an order for to send me the amount of twenty pounds in parchment.

Q.Were all the twenty pounds to be in parchment? - Yes.

Mr. Garrow. How soon after you had sent that, was that order executed? - After that he drew a bill on me for forty pounds.

Q. You ordered twenty pounds of parchment stamps? - Yes.

Q. Did the parchment stamps arrive before the bill was drawn, or was the bill drawn after? - I think the bill was drawn first, but it did not arrive till after I received the parchment. (The bill shewn him.)

Mr. Garrow. This is a draft drawn by Moses, London; dated 3d December 1794, for forty pounds, addressed to Wolfe, endorsed by him.

Q. What was the next thing that took place? Did you pay that bill when it was at maturity? - I did.

Q. Did it come to you endorsed as it is now? - It came to me through the hands of the Portsmouth Bank.(Read by the clerk of the court.)

"40l. London, 3d December 1794. Three days after date, please to pay to Mr. George Nelson , or order, forty pounds, and place it to the account of your humble servant, I. Moses,

To Mr. G. Wolf, Portlea, Portsmouth Common.

Endorsed George Nelson, I. Idswell, Noah, G. Israel, and B. Bush."

Q. That Idswell is not the prisoner at the bar, but the man that is dead? - Yes, it is.

Q. Well, sir? - A fortnight after that I received another parcel of six shilling stamps, and sixpenny stamps, and four-penny, on paper, and two-penny, these were on blank paper.

Q. Was that in execution of an order sent by you? - He told me that he would send me such, and he did.

Q.Had you given any directions that you should want fourpenny, and sixpenny, and twopenny stamps? - Yes, I had.

Q. What was the next thing? - The amount of these stamps were one hundred and thirty pounds, or thereabouts; after that I sent him a remittance for the same, the first bill was a fifty pounds.

Mr. Garrow. This was another of of the Portsmouth and Hampshire banks, 26th January 1795, to the witness or order, fifty pounds, at ten days date.

Q. You sent it with your own endorsement only on it? - Yes.

Q. When you got it up at your bankers, had it the same endorsement on it as it has now? - No.

Q. You remitted it in part of that bill of one hundred and thirty pounds, that fifty pounds? - Yes, and Moses drew a bill on me for fifty-five pounds.

Q. Was that the bill drawn on you? - Yes, it was.

Q. Was that paid by you on account of the stamps? - Yes, it was.

Mr. Garrow. Two months after date, fifty five pounds, pay to order, drawn by Moses, accepted Greshon Wolfe.

Q. Did it come to you with the endorsement on it? - Yes, as far as I know.

Q. What was the next thing that took place? - About a week after that Moses came down to Portsmouth, at the same time I let him have a few pounds, five or six pounds, while he was there, I cannot recollect which. I never had none before, nor none after, no further conversation.

Q. Do you remember these gentlemen, Mr. Whittard and Mr. Wood coming to Portsmouth? - Yes.

Q. Do you know Mr. Bevan, a stationer, at Portsmouth? - Yes, I do.

Q. Did you at any time sell him any powers, which you so received from London? - Yes, I did.

Q. Do you remember Mr. Whittard and Mr. Wood coming from London? - I do.

Q. Did you sell them any powers that came from London? - Yes.

Q. Did he seize a large quantity in your house? - Yes.

Q. They were part of what you had received from London, in the manner in which you have stated? - Yes.

Q. Are those the parchments you received? (Some parchments shewn him) - Yes, they are what I sold to Mr. Richards, an attorney, at Portsmouth.

Q. You have since delivered to Mr. Whittard another parcel? - Yes, I have.

Q.Were all of them part of what you received from London? - Yes, they were.

Q. Are you sure that all these different parcels we have mentioned, are the same that you received from London, through the hands of Moses? - Yes, they were all that I received from Moses.

Q. Were your order for payment an order to execute some former order of Mr. Richards? Were all that order delivered to Mr. Richards? - They were, there were no other.

Q. Mr. Richards is an attorney, at Portsmouth? - Yes.

Mr. Knowlys. How long have you lived at Portsmouth? - Twenty years.

Q. How long have you been acquainted with Mr. Moses? - For these ten or twenty years back.

Q. Did you know him much since the last time you was in London; have you had a great many dealings with Moses? - I have had no dealings with him in the late years, since this business here.

Q. Have you been intimate with him? - Yes, I have been intimate.

Q. You have known where he has lived, and what he has done? - Not what he has done, I knew where he lived.

Q. He owed you twenty-five pounds? - Yes, he did.

Q. That was for some business between you, of course? - He had some goods of me.

Q. I suppose you know a little of his history? - No, I know nothing of his history at all.

Q. Then you had but a slight acquaintance with him. Am I to understand that you was very intimate, or but a slight acquaintance? - I knew him for many years back, and I never knew any harm of him before.

Q. I want to know whether you knew much of his transactions or not? - I never knew what his transactions of late years were before.

Q. Here you dealt with him to a large amount, he was the only person that you dealt with about stamps? - No, not the only person, because I dealt with other persons in London and Portsmouth.

Q. About these stamps? - He was the only person about these stamps.

Q. You were taken up? - Yes.

Q. How long were you in custody? - What in prison?

Q. Yes? - Sixteen days.

Q. How many examinations did you under go before the magistrate? - I was brought up three or four times; I was brought up twice and had no hearing.

Q.How many times were you brought up in all? - Four times, I think.

Q. Were you ever taken up before? - No. I never was before.

Q. Then surely a man that never was taken up before must remember? - In the trouble I was in, it is impossible for me to recollect whether it was three or four times; I never was taken up before in my life.

Q. Were you discharged? - Yes, entirely, on finding bail.

Q. You was obliged to find bail after all, to answer such charges as should be exhibited against you? - I know nothing about it, I was discharged on giving bail, for a witness.

Q. Do you mean to swear that you was discharged on bail to appear as a witness, and not to answer such charges as might be exhibited against you? - I know I was discharged by the justice as a witness against the party.

Q. Do you mean to swear that you was not discharged on bail, to answer such charges as might be exhibited against you? - That was the first bail.

Q.Then you was first discharged on bail, to answer such charges as might be exhibited against you. How many examinations did you undergo? - Upon my word I cannot recollect, three or four times I was brought up.

Mr. Garrow. I believe before you came to Bow-street, you had disclosed the whole of the story that you have now told here? - I had.

Q. How many years have you kept house in Portsmouth? - Twenty years.

Q. Never in custody before? - Never.

Q. Did you sell these stamps openly and publickly? - I did.

Q. Is Mr. Bevan a law stationer in Portsmouth? - He sells things to the attornies.

Q. Did you attend here last session, expecting the trial to come on? - I did.

Q. Do you come here voluntary as a witness, or in custody? - Voluntary as a witness.

Q. Did it happen to you to take any security on these papers yourself?

Mr. Shepherd. I object to that.

Court. You attempt to impeach this man's character, Mr. Garrow wants to re-establish it.

Mr. Garrow. That certainly is it.

Q. To Witness. Look at that, (a paper shewn him) and see if that is security that you took yourself on this paper? - It is.

Q. What is the amount of it? - It may be two hundred or three hundred pounds.

Jury. What price did you give for these stamps?

Court. We cannot at present go into any conversation between Wolfe and Moses, as Idswell not being present, he has not an opportunity of denying it; when Moses comes up we may get to that question afterwards.


Q. Do not let any circumstances of apprehension, or any thing prevent you from speaking the whole truth, you are now under the protection of the law, and therefore I desire you to speak the whole truth. How long have you been acquainted with the prisoner at the bar? - Six or seven years.

Q.What do you call yourself? - I used to do business for the navy, and in the mercantile line.

Q. Did you know his brother, who is deceased? - Yes, the same time.

Q. When was it you first had any communication with the prisoner, on the subject of forged stamps? - About four months before I was apprehended; on calling at the late Idswell's, in St. Maryaxe, in the prefence of Soloman Idswell, the late Idswell asked me, what I thought of having a six shilling stamp made? if I had anybody I could sell them to, I might make my fortune? I then told him I had a friend at Portsmouth, and mentioned one Mr. Wolfe; he then asked me whether Mr. Wolfe could be trusted, and would have no suspicion? I told him he would not, for he was a man that made use of a great many himself, and therefore he would have no suspicion. A few days after I see Mr. Wolse in town, whom I had known many years; in the course of the conversation I told him that I expected some stamps on credit, from a stationer, and wished to know whether they would said him, being six shilling stamps for powers of attorney and assignments? he then said they would suit him; I then told him I would send him about two hundred pounds worth; Mr. Wolfe said they were too many, that he could have a better use for his money. Then we parted without coming to any agreement, and then I went to the late Idswell's house, and acquainted him what had passed between me and Mr Wolfe.

Q.Where did the late Idswell live? - No. 57. St. Mary-axe.

Q. Did this conversation pass in the presence of Solomon Idswell? - No, it was the late Idswell.

Q. How soon after this did you see Solomon? - Then the late Idswell and me went to buy some paper stamps, in order to get them stamped; we went to a shop in Lombard-street, and bought two quires of blank powers of attorney without stamps, for which he paid half a crown, or three shillings, I don't know which.

Q. You met Mr. Wolse, you have told us what past between him and you. Had you any talk with this man about Wolfe again? - No, I had not. The late Idswell went the same afternoon to Messrs. Mount's and Page's, stationers, on Tower Hill, and he bought several quires of powers of attorney, and assignments not stamped, and took them home to his own house; and he also desired me the next day to attend, to call on him.

Q. Did you call the next day? - Yes. When I came he took me up three pair of stairs into a back garret, where I see in the middle of the room, a bench fixed with a small press fixed on it, and a fly.

Q. Was the press in working order? - Yes.

Q. That was fixed in the middle of the room? - Yes, and Solomon Idswell standing by at work.

Q.What work was he engaged in? - He was stamping the blank powers which had been bought by the late Idswell.

Court. When you came into the room who did you see there? - I see Solomon Idswell ; and the late Idswell went up stairs with me.

Q.There you found this man at the press and at work? - Yes.

Mr. Garrow. Well? - After about five minutes the late Idswell went down stairs. After being up stairs half an hour-

Q. You continued there half an hour. What was Solomon Idswell doing there that half hour? - He was at work making the stamps; after that I left him.

Q. You went down stairs and left him at work? - Yes.

Q. Before you went down stairs, did you try this press? - I tried one myself, and I spoiled the power, I could not make the impression perfect.

Q. By whose desire did you make it? - By my own fancy.

Q. You asked him leave to do it. Well, when you went down stairs, you left him at work? - Yes. I returned again at four o'clock the same afternoon.

Q. I would ask you what sort of a thing it was that they stamped these papers with? - It was a brass metal with a stamp engraved on it.

Q. In what manner was it done? - The paper was laid on the bottom of the press, and then the brass plate laid on it, and the fly with a handle forced the screw down on it.

Q. The stamp was not thrown down with the fly and up again, it was laid down? - It was.

Q. So that for each one it was necessary to take it up, and lay it down on it? - It was.

Q. You went down stairs and returned at four o'clock in the afternoon? - Yes. After I came, there were three hundred and twenty-three packed up.

Q. Had you any conversation while you was in the room or before you left it, with respect to the operation? - The work shook the room, and I mentioned it to Solomon, and he said there was no danger.

Q. You observed to him, what did you say? - I told him it caused to shake the room very much, and I was afraid it would alarm the neighbourhood; and he said, there was no danger.

Q. When you returned at four o'clock in the afternoon, there were three hundred and how many? - Three hundred and twenty odd packed up, and a direction wrote upon it, to Mr. Wolfe, at Portsmouth.

Q.Who was it told you there were three hundred and twenty odd packed up? - The late Idswell.

Q. Was that in the presence of Solomon? - No.

Q. What was done with them? - They were taken to the inn in Gracechurch-street, where the mail goes out.

Q.Who took them? - I am not certain whether it was Solomon or the deceased.

Q. What mail coach? - To Portmouth.

Q. What was the next thing that happened? - I also wrote a letter to Mr. Wolfe, by the post, in Hebrew, and acquainted him that I sent him such a parcel, and desired to have some remittance; two days after I received a letter, at the New York Coffee house enclosing me a Portsmouth bank note of fifty pounds, and a banker's checque for ten pounds, on Sir James Esdaile and Co.

Q. Do you know the note if you was to see it? - Yes.

Q.Shew him first the Portsmouth and Hampshire note. What became of the letter that enclosed these two bills? - It has been destroyed.

Q. What did it purport? - That there was a remittance according to my desire, of this banker's note, and a banker's checque for the stamps.

Q. What did you do with the bank note? - I gave it to the late Idswell to carry to get it accepted, and the ten pound banker's checque I went and received the money for it myself.

Q. What was the next thing that took place? - In a day or two after the late Idswell desired me to draw a bill on Mr. Wolfe for forty pounds.

Q. In a few days afterwards did you draw a bill on Mr. Wolfe for forty pounds? - I did.

Q. Who wrote the body of the bill? Look at it. - This is my assignment.

Q. Who wrote the body of the bill? - The late Idswell.

Q. And by his desire you signed your name to it? - I did.

Q. It was made payable to a person of the name of Nelson. Did you know such a person? - No, I did not when it was wrote.

Q. What was done with that bill after you signed your name to it? - I don't know, I gave it to the late Idswell to convey it to Mr. Wolfe. I always wrote a letter to Mr. Wolfe acquainting him that I had drawn such a bill.

Q. Do you know who wrote G. Nelson on it? - I do not.

Q. Whose hand is I. Idswell? - The late Idswell's.

Q.What was the next thing that took place? - I wrote a letter to Mr. Wolfe, acquainting him that I had drawn a bill on him him for forty pounds, and I hoped he would acknowledge it; about eight days after I received a letter from Mr. Wolfe, desiring to have a quantity of stamps on parchment; there was an order wrote in English, which I tore off and gave to the late Idswell.

Q. How much was the amount of the order for parchment? - Twenty pounds ten shillings it came to after it was paid.

Q. You delivered that order to the late. Idswell? - I did.

Q. What became of it? Was there any remittance in that letter? - No.

Q.What was done with that order for the parchment? - I gave it to the late Idswell, and he went into Birchin-lane; I went with him, and he shewed the order to Mr. Weatherby, and left it there.

Q. Then the parchment order was left there to be executed? - It was. After a few days the order was got ready, and the lateIdswell went himself, and paid for it, and conveyed it to Mr. Wolfe the same as the other. About three weeks after I received another letter from Mr. Wolfe, where in he mentions to have some twopenny, sixpenny, and fourpenny stamps; I also carried it to the late Idswell's house, and myself and him went opposite the India House, at a stationer's, and there we purchused them, about five pounds and upwards, which I paid for myself.

Q. The Idswells were not provided with any stamp except the six shilling; so that the other order, and the order for parchment, you were obliged to get executed elsewhere? - Yes, we were. Mr. Wolfe requested me not to send him any more six shilling stamps, unless he should first acquaint me. I wrote a letter to Mr. Wolse, that I should comply with his order for small stamps, and also send him four hundred powers of attorney. I then went by myself to Mount and Page, on Tower-hill, and bought fourteen quires of blank powers.

Q.Unstamped of course? - Yes.

Q. And what did you do with them? - I brought them to the late Idswell's house in St. Mary-axe.

Q. The same place where the others had been stamped? - Yes. They were also stamped the same as the others were. I went up stairs for a little time that day.

Q. Who did you find in the garret when you went up stairs? - Solomon Idswell.

Q. What was he doing? - The same as before.

Q. He was at work? - Yes, stamping.

Q.Now how long might you stay with him the time that he was stamping these papers, that you brought from Mount and Page's? - I did not stay with him above five or six minutes.

Q.When did you go again; how soon were they finished? - I did not come the same day. They were also conveyed to Gracechurch-street, to be conveyed to Mr. Wolse.

Q. How do you know they were sent? - Because I received a letter from Mr. Wolse acknowledging them, and thatnight I wrote a letter to Mr. Wolfe that he would receive them.

Q. How many were sent? - Four hundred, all powers of attorney, I believe.

Q. You did not go back to St. Maryaxe that night? - No, I went to the prisoner's own house.

Q. Where was the prisoner's own house? - In Baker's-buildings, Broad-street.

Q. Can you six the day when you bought this at Mount's and Page's? - Tuesday or Wednesday, I cannot say the day.

Q. When you came to Baker's-buildings what did you see there? - They were packed up to be sent to Mr. Wolfe. I see Soloman packing up the four hundred powers and the smaller stamps, to be conveyed to Mr. Wolfe.

Q. How did you know what that parcel consisted of? - I see them, he looked them over for to send them to Mr. Wolfe. Counted them I believe, and packed them up in a parcel to be sent to Mr. Wolfe.

Q. Did you the same evening write a letter of advice to Mr. Wolfe that they would be sent? - I did, and also requesting some remittance.

Q. Did you see the parcel carried to Gracechurch-street? - I did not.

Q.You went away and left the parcel there? - I did.

Q. What answer did you receive? - I received a letter two days afterwards, concerning the receipt of the stamps, and enclosing a bill of fifty pounds. (A bill shewn him.) That is the bill.

Q. Did it enclose any thing else? - Nothing else. I gave it to the late Idswell, and Idswell also drew a bill on the very day I received it, on Mr. Wolfe, for fifty-five pounds. (A bill shewn him.)

Q. You subscribed your name to it? - I did.

Q. Who wrote the body of it, did you see it wrote? - No, I did not.

Q.Are you acquainted with the hand writing? - No, I am not.

Q.Who produced it to you to sign your name to it? - The late Idswell shewed it to me to sign it at the New York Coffee-house, at the same time both brothers were there.

Q. They were then both together? - Yes, they were.

Q. When you had signed it, what became of it? - I gave it to the late Idswell to go to Smith, Pratts, and Hardy, silversmiths Cheapside, in order to send it to Portsmouth for acceptance.

Q. What was the next thing that happened? - Two days after I went myself, and the late Idswell went to Pratts, Smith, and Hardy, silversmiths, in Cheapside, and got my bill there returned from Portsmouth accepted by Mr. Wolfe, and he discounted it, and gave gold for it.

Q.What you call fine gold? - Yes; not coin gold. Then he gave me half that money, half the fifty pounds, and half of fifty-five pounds, the late Idswell did.

Q.What did you do with the fine gold that you got at Pratts? - He disposed of it, he gave me the allowance of that.

Q. What was the next thing that happened? - He told me then that he must not work any more, he must leave off making stamps in that house, he said it was no matter, there was another house where they had been making some louisdors before. Then they removed to Smith's.

Q. Who removed to Smith's? - He mentioned the house; in the mean time I went to Portsmouth, and received about seven or eight pounds of Mr. Wolfe.

Q. On this account? - Yes.

Q. When you returned where did find the Idswells? - I found Idswell in St. Mary-axe, and some time after he took the press in a coach; I went with him in the coach to Cornhill. I did not go with him to the house, I left him there, and he took it to Smith's.

Q.Where did you understand he tookit to? - Into Church Entry, Blackfriars. I left him with his fly and press together in the coach, and went home.

Q.How soon did you see them again? - I see the late Idswell almost every day. In about a fortnight after the late Idswell went to Smith's house again, the late Idswell took me up stairs, and shewed me a table in the room.

Q.Then the late Idswell went up stairs with you, did this man go up stairs with you, or did you find him in the room? - I found the table and the press, and the press fixed on a very strong board, stronger than in St. Mary-axe.

Court. About a fortnight after you see the press in Smith's house? - Yes.

Q. Was that the same press you see in St. Mary-axe? - Yes, it was.

Q. Then the press was on a flouter board than in St. Mary-axe? - It was.

Q. The press and fly were the same? - It was.

Q. Did you at any time see the prisoner there? - I did.

Q. How soon after? - About four or five days after.

Q. Was the press before you see the prisoner there in working condition fixed? - Yes, it was. Then four or five days after, I went there with the late Idswell, and Solomon also was making of stamps.

Mr. Garrow. In what apartment was Solomon? - Standing by the press and working of Stamps.

Q. Was he in the same operation as you see him in St. Mary-axe? - He was.

Q. The late Idswell and you went to Mount and Page's, was it the same quantity that he was working upon when you went to examine Smith's house? - Yes, it was.

Q.How long might you stay while this man was working at Smith's house at that time? - Not long, I did not stop but a few minutes.

Q.From the quantity that appeared to be done, did he seem to have been long at work at that time? - No, he did not. The greatest part was unstamped at that time.

Q. What quantity might there be laying there for the purpose of stamping? - Not above fifty. I returned again in the afternoon, and took away from Smith's what were made.

Q.Who delivered them to you? - The late Idswell.

Q.Was Solomon there then? - No, he was not, and I carried them home to St. Mary-axe, and left them at his house.

Q. What were they intended for, to execute any particular order? - No.

Q.What was the next particular transaction? - That was Sunday, on Monday I called there again, and I also took what was made.

Q. Who did you find there on Monday? - The late Idswell, he also gave me some to leave at his house, and on Tuesday also.

Q. Did you see this man either on Monday or Tuesday? - No, I did not. On the first Sunday I see him there, and the Wednesday following they were apprehended.

Q. That is, you and the late Idswell were apprehended? - Yes.

Q.This man was not apprehended for some days after? - He was not.

Q. Was the die on which the impression was made in Smith's house the same that had been used in St. Mary-axe? - It was.

Q. You will know the press again when you see it, I take it for granted? - I don't know.

Q. While this business was going on did any thing happen to any of the tools that interrupted the business? - The tool broke.

Q. What do you mean by the tool? - The press.

Q. Did you see which part broke? - Yes, I did.

Q. Where was it broke, in St. Maryaxe, or in Smith's house? - In Smith's house.

Q. Did you afterwards see it mended? - I did not.

Q. Did you see any other stamps besides, and dies for making stamps? - Yes, there were other stamps.

Q. Did you ever see these in possession of this prisoner? - No, I did not.

Mr. Garrow. It is not material on this indictment, so I will not pursue it.

Court. You don't know who took this first parcel to the mail coach in Grace-church-street? - I have forgot whether it was Solomon Idswell or Idswell Idswell, I am not positive.

Q. You are sure that in Baker's-buildings, there the prisoner was packing up these stamps, counting them and looking them over? - Yes, he was.

(The press produced.)

Q.Was that the press you see at work? - There was such a thing.

Q. Do you believe it? - There was such a thing.

Q.Which part was broke? - That part(points to it.)

Q.Look at the board? - Yes, that is the board.

Q. Now describe in what manner the stamps were put into the press? - The paper was put down, and the die put on it.

Q. This you say you believe to be the one that you saw in St. Mary-axe, and at Smith's; the board is not the same that was in St. Mary-axe, but the iron work you believe is the same? - Yes.

Mr. Shepherd. When was it the late Idswell first applied to you? - About four months before I got into trouble.

Q.About what month was that? - In October.

Q. When was it you told us that the tool was broke? - January.

Q. When was it they removed from St. Mary-axe, to Smith's? - The same month, January.

Q. You was the first person taken up? - Yes, after Mr. Wolfe.

Q. Had you never been in custody before? - I never was.

Q. Never in your life in custody before? - Never, I was not in my life.

Q. Do you mean to swear that you never was in custody on no charge? - I was once, in the year 1791, doing my business I happened to have a misfortune concerning the navy; there was a probate of a will brought to me, and it was supposed to be a forgery; I was ordered by the navy board to attend the board, which I did.

Q. You was not then taken into custody at all for that? - I was not.

Q. Was not there a man of the name of Welch, concerned in that business? - That was a woman, recommended by a man, of the name of Welch.

Q. You gave in some bail for attendance on a future day? - No, I did not to the navy board.

Q. I ask you this fact, whether nobody passed their word for you to attend the second time? - Not at the navy board; I received a letter from the navy board to attend on Tuesday, which I did; when I came there, they asked me where I came by this paper? and I told them it was brought to me by a woman, for to receive the money.

Court. Were you ever in custody on any charge at all? - No, I never was; the gentleman of the navy board were satisfied, if I would promise to detain the man and woman, when they came; at the same time the advocate for the navy board laid, they were not satisfied, and then I came away, and never came forward.

Q. Now, I ask you whether you did not give bail to come the next day beforethe justice? - I asked your advice, and you advised me not to come forward, and I left the country, and it has been the total ruin of me.

Q. Did not you set off and go to Hamborough? - I did.

Q. How long were you in Hamborough? - Four or five years.

Q. Were you in London in this four or five years? - No, I was not.

Q. Did you ever appear public in London again, till Mrs. Welch, who had something to do in this transaction, was dead? - I don't know that she is dead, I did not hear so.

Q.Was it not in consequence of hearing that Mrs. Welch was dead, that you publickly appeared in London? - People might say it, it may be so.

Q. Was it not? - It might, I don't know.

Q.Was it not?Did not you keep out of the way till you heard Mrs. Welch was dead?

Court. What signifies pursuing it?

Mr. Shepherd. Do you know any body of the name of Barnard? - Yes, I do.

Q. He was a bankrupt? - He was.

Q. What debt did you prove under that commission? - Fifty pounds, I believe.

Q. O, a great deal more than that, three or four hundred pounds I believe? What did you claim to prove? - I did not claim more than fifty pounds.

Q.Never? - Never.

Q. You mean to swear that under Barnard's commission, you never claimed more than fifty pounds? - Never in my life.

Q. Nor ever, swore that he owed you three or four hundred pounds? - Never swore it.

Q. I do not mean publickly, but by affidavit? - Never.

Q. What might you have been, the greatest part of your life? - I was in very good business in the navy; I have been as well to do as some of the first merchants in London, till such times as I got acquainted with the late Idswell; I have done business for twelve or thirteen years in the navy.

Q.Now I take it for granted, you have always got your livelihood as an honest man? - I did always, till I became acquainted with the Idswells.

Q. Now, as you were an honest man, Idswell Idswell did not seem to be under much difficulty to persuade you into the plan? - In fact they got me under so much, that any thing they asked me to do, I should have done.

Q.When you were taken up you expected to be prosecuted, did not you? - Why, yes. The advice I received was that opinion, the person advising me to go off, as they might commit me.

Q. I am now asking you about the last transaction; when you was taken up, you expected to be prosecuted? - I don't know.

Q. No! when you was taken up for this forgery? - Certainly I did expect it.

Q. And in order to prevent your being prosecuted, you stated this charge against Idswell? - I did.

Q. You know nothing of Mrs. Welch's death? - She is not dead.

Q. Who furnished Mrs. Welch with money to go to Ireland, just before you came from Hamborough? - I could have brought the man to justice, but I did not choose to do it.

Q.Who furnished Mrs. Welch with money to go to Ireland, just before you came from Hamborough, and just before it was reported she was dead? - I did, but she is not dead.

Q.After you had given the account to these persons who are carrying on this

prosecution, you had a copy of your evidence? - Yes, I had.

Q. Do you remember stating to any body, that the contents that was put on that paper, was not true? - I never did.

Q. You never said there was a great deal more put down than you could positively swear to? - Never.

Q. Did you ever ask any friends advice, how far it would be necessary to swear, in order to save yourself? - Never.

Q. You never consuited with any body about the evidence you should give when you came into court? - Never.

Q. That is as true as all the rest you have sworn? - Yes.

Mr. Garrow. Do you know a person of the name of Bryant? - Yes.

Q.What was Bryant? - He was late clerk to the prison where I was in custody.

Q. Is that the same prison in which a person of the name of Norwood was in custody?

Mr. Shepherd. That is extremely irregular, Mr. Garrow.

Mr. Garrow. I am not going to ask what Mr. Bryant said to him, or him to Mr. Bryant, I only want to bring Mr. Bryant's name on your lordship's book, then in order to ascertain the locus in quo, I ask whether that is the same prison in which Mr. Norwood was in custody.

Witness. I slept in the room with Bryant.

Court. Who is Bryant? - He was clerk to the keeper of the House of Correction, where I was; we were friendly together at first, but I found him quite different at the latter end.


Q. You are a Bow-street officer? - Yes.

Q.Did you examine the house of Smith, Church-entry, Blackfriars? - Yes, I did.

Q. When was you at this house? - I don't hardly recollect the day of the month, but it was before the prisoner at the bar was apprehended.

Q.Was it after the brother was apprehended? - It was; it was Wednesday, the 18th of January, me and Ruthwin went to Smith's house, a schoolmaster, in Church-entry, I believe it is called.

Q. You searched this house, and what did you find? - The first night we went, we did not find any thing, we went in search of the prisoner at the bar; the second time of searching, by the information of Mrs. Smith, we found this table in a closet in the school room, concealed, without the iron, exactly in the same state in which it now is.

Q. Where is the house? - Church-entry, Shoemaker-row, Blackfriars.

Mr. Knowlys. What part of the house in the school room? - It is not the garret nor the second floor.


Q. Were you acquainted with the prisoner, and his brother deceased? - With his brother deceased I was, but I cannot say that I have been with the prisoner.

Q. Look at this press, Mr. Solomon? - As to that press I cannot say any thing.

Court. You know you are sworn? - I have been.

Q. Give your evidence cooly and deliberately, and let me caution you to speak the truth.

Mr. Garrow. Look at that press. Did you ever see such a thing before? - I did not.

Q. How long have you known the prisoner? - I have seen him backward and forward for about a twelvemonth;I have known him since I knew Mr. Jones.

Q.Which Mr. Jones are you speaking of now? - Mr. Idswell Idswell, that is deceased, I see him abroad.

Q.When did you see Mr. Idswell Idswell last? - I see him about a day before he was taken.

Q. When did you see the deceased last of all? - When he was up at Bow-street, the last time.

Q. When did you see Idswell Idswell, the deceased, the last time of all? - When he came along with Day at the time he was shot.

Q.Did you ever see such an instrument as that before? - I cannot say I ever see it before, but I will tell you how I came to know of it -

Q. I believe you gave some directions where it might be found? - I did.

Q.What direction did you give to find that instrument that I call a press? - By the word -

Q. That will not do. What direction did you give for finding that instrument? where did you say it might be found? - In Bishopsgate-street.

Q.In what situation? - In the privy, according as it was told to me; and I will tell you how I came to know it.

Q. At whose house? - At Solomon Jacob , No. 1, Angel-square.

Q.Is Mr. Solomon Jacobs any way related to the prisoner at the bar? - Some relation.

Q.Is he an uncle? - I believe not.

Q.Is Mr. Solomon Jacobs one of the persons that is now in custody? - He is not, but his wife was in custody.

Q.You did not see it thrown down? - I did not.

Q.Except what somebody told you, you don't know how it came there? - I do not.

RUCHWIN sworn.

Q.You are an officer of Bow-street? - I am.

Q. Did you in consequence of any direction from Barnard Solomon attend the searching of a privy in Bishopsgate-street? - I did, No.12 Angel-court.

Q.Was that press found in the privy, in the same state it is now in? - It was.


Q. You have been for many years engraver to his Majesty's commissioners of stamps? - I have.

Q.Employed by them in engraving the dies with which the stamps are impressed? - I have.

Q. Did you by their direction engrave a die for a six shilling stamp, with the letter E? - I did, by a warrant from the commissioners.

Q. I believe you had the opportunity of looking over a great many stamps, which were suspected to be forged? - I had.

Q.Who produced them to you? - Mr. Whittard.

Q.Were all these that were produced to you, genuine or forged? - They were forged.

Q. Have you the least doubt about that? - Not the least.

Q. Is it to you obvious without a glass? - I cannot see without a glass.

Q. I believe you made observation on particular parts that I shall not examine you to, except one that is so striking; you see at the bottom of this, one shilling, one shilling, sixpence, one shilling, and one shilling; between these several things that I have now been remarking there is something impressed, what is that in the genuine stamp? - It is a small flower.

Q.What is it in that you call a forgery? - It is a cross, and very heavy, and different in shape.

Q. Be so good as to look at this, and tell us whether this is a genuine one, impressed from your die?(one shown him) - That is genuine.

Mr. Garrow to Jury. Be so good as to look at the genuine one with the glass, to that part that I have pointed out, and you will see that it is a flower.

Q. Look at your left hand, reading upwards you will see a sixpence, look at the shape of that? and then look at the forged one, and you will see it much heavier, the ball of the P.

Court. I see this is so badly impressed, that half the sixpence on the right hand side, has made no impression at all? - No, it is very imperfect.

Mr. Garrow to Major. You who have engraved the one, have no difficulty whatever in stating that the other is a forgery? - None in the least.

Q. You told me that all that Mr. Whittard shewed you were forged? - Yes, they were.

Q.And the die of the one that you produce; the genuine one has been the one used by the commissioners, which you made under their direction? - Yes, it is.

Mr. Shepherd. How long has that stamp been used? - Since the year 1788; I have the warrant in my pocket, it is the 27th of May 1788, and finished by me by the August, pursuant to that order.

Court. And been used ever since? - Yes.

Q. To Whittard. Did you shew to Mr. Major all these that are here produced? - Yes.

Q. Did that include that one that Wolfe himself had taken, that power that he had spoken of? - I believe so.

Q. To Major. Cast your eye on that, and see if that is a forged one. (the power shewn him) - It is.


Q. You are foreman to Mr. William Roper , of Gravel-lane, carpenter? - Yes.

Q. Do you remember receiving an iron press at your master's shop, in Gravel-lane, and when for the first time? - Yes, some little time ago there was a stool or frame made for it to stand upon, it was made of beech.

Q.Perhaps your book will help you to the month? - Yes, it is in the month of August.

Q. Be so good to look and see if it is the 25th of August? - It was the 25th that I carried it home.

Q. What year is it? - Last August 1794.

Q. You had the press brought to your shop, in order to make this stool by? - Yes.

Q.Was it let in? - No, it was not let in; we had the press about two days.

Q. Then you carried it home? - Yes.

Q. Where did you carry it to? - To Mr. Idswell's. St. Mary-axe.

Q. Did you fix it? - No, I delivered it to Mr. Idswell.

Q. Be so good as to look at that press, and see if that is the press that you took home? - It was not so big as that, it was much smaller, it was polished, wrought iron, this is cast iron; it went round with a couple of lignum vitae handles.

Q. Did you at any time after that receive any order with respect to the form of the stool, for fixing? - I received an order some time after that to send a man to fix it, I sent a man.

Q. What is his name? - William Spratt .

Q. To fix the frame that had been before carried there? - Yes, as I supposed.

Q.How came you not to fix it? - He said, he did not want it fixed; and I left it in a little parlour.


Q. You are journeyman to Mr. Roper, in Gravel-lane? - Yes.

Q. Do you remember going, in January last, to Mr. Idswell's, in St. Maryaxe? - Yes.

Q. What did you go for? - I went to fix a block, or stool in the garret.

Q. What was it for? - I don't know for what purpose.

Q. Who did you see there? - Solomon Idswell .

Q. What did he direct you to do? - To fix this block very fast to the floor.

Q.What part of the room? - About the centre of the room.

Q.In what room? - The garret.

Q. Who paid you for fixing it? - The prisoner gave me sixpence when I was done.

Q.Was it the prisoner that gave you the order and direction for fixing it very fast to the floor? - Yes, it was.

Q. What sort of a block was it? - It was a beech one, about two inches thick.

Q. Was it a sort of a block that was sit for a press to be fixed upon? - No, I think not strong enough.

Q. That depends undoubtedly on the size of the press; you think it would not be strong enough for that that stands before you? - No, I think not.


Q.You are likewise a workman with Mr. Roper, I understand? - Yes.

Q. On what day was it you went to St. Mary-axe? - The 20th of January.

Q. That was the day that you actually went? - Yes, it was.

Q. Who was it came to your master, and ordered you to go there? - That little gentleman, the prisoner.

Q.Did you see him? - Yes.

Q. What did he order you to do? - He came to me, and asked me to go with him to fix a press.

Q. To go where? - To St. Mary-axe, to fix a press stronger than it was before; and I went, and I did it.

Q. In what manner did you fix it? - I put two braces to it, from the ceiling, and from the wainscotting,from the bottom to the stand, to make it stronger, and one I put at the end.

Q. When you put that was it very strong? would it bear a considerable force? - Yes.

Q. Was there any press on it at the time you fixed it? - Yes, there was a press on.

Q. Was it the same sort of that, or smaller? - It was something of that sort.

Q. Had it a fly? - It had a fly.

Q. Did it appear to you to be in working condition? - Yes, it did.

Q. But it was required by the prisoner to be made more solid, and therefore you put two braces to it, who made you a complement for your trouble? - That gentleman, he gave me a shilling.

Q. When was that? - On the 8th of January 1795.

Q. You cannot swear positively to the press? - No, I cannot say.

Q. Did you take notice of it, whether it was of wrought iron, or cast iron? - I see it was a black iron; I took very little notice.

Q. It was in the garret that you see it? - Yes.

Q. Had you ever been there before? - Yes, several times.

Q. When had you been there before? - Several times.

Q. For what purpose? - I went there along with the gentleman several times, to do some little jobs; he wanted me about a little press that he had.

Q. What gentleman are you speaking of? - That prisoner; he wanted me to make a frame for it, that was a little polished one.

Q. Did you see the fly? - Yes, that was polished.

Q.Was that an order to your master,or one to you privately? - To my master.

Q. Then you went and took this order? - Yes.

Q. That frame that you made was fixed, and this press on it, the small press? - I did not fix the press on it, we had the press at our shop several days.

Q. Looking at that, can you say, that is the same that you saw the last time? - I cannot say it is the same.

Q. Do you believe it to be the same? - It is the same in point of size.


Q. You live at No.7, Creed-lane? - Yes.

Q. A blacksmith by business? - Yes.

Q. You was a journeyman to Mr. Ginger, of St. Andrew's, Holborn-hill? - Yes.

Q. Do you remember, in the month of October last, any instrument for making stamps being brought to your master's shop to be repaired? - Yes, I believe it was October.

Q. What was wanting to be done to it? - The guides of it were loose, and that part was made stronger.

Q.What do you mean when you describe it an instrument for making stamps? - A press. The first one that was brought was broke.

Q. You don't know who brought it, or took it away? - I do not.

Q. After it had been brought, and taken away, the first time, how soon did you see it again? - I see part of it again in about three weeks, or a month, the screw and the sliding bar to repair, and to put a new end to the screw.

Q. Where did you carry it home to? - To St. Mary-axe.

Q.Did you carry it according to the direction that was left by the person that brought it? - Yes.

Q. How soon did you finish it? - I believe, about a couple of days.

Q.At whose house in St. Mary-axe? - Mr. Idswell.

Q.How soon after this did you see the prisoner at the bar, after you had repaired it the second time? - Not till Christmas.

Q.How came you to see him then, and what did he come about? - The tool broke, the frame of the press, and I repaired it.

Q. Tell us who came about it? - Mr. Idswell, at the bar, and another gentleman. I had left Mr. Ginger, and they came to me, to my own house; they said, Mr. Ginger told them that I had left him, and directed them to where I lived.

Q. Did they leave any press with you? - Yes, to have a new frame; I put the iron work to the foundery to cast, and then I put the screw and bars, to make it complete.

Q. You did that by order of the prisoner? - Yes.

Q. Who was the founder that did it? - Brodie, in Cary-street.

Q.After that, did you see the prisoner again? - No; the porter came for it, and he paid my wife for it.

Q.How soon after this did you see the prisoner again? - I had it then, I believe, five or six weeks before I had done it; about a month after I had it again.

Q. Who came to you about it then? - I was not at home when the gentleman came; the next day he came to my house.

Q.Had the press been left in the mean time? - Yes.

Q. While you was out? - Yes.

Q. Who do you mean when you speak of the gentleman? - The prisoner; and he ordered me to get it done as soon as I could; it broke in the middle part.

Q.What reason did he give you? - That he had got some business to do for a friend of his, that was to go into the country, and I finished and sent it home.

Q. And what would be the consequence, did he say? - He should lose his order.

Q. Did he promise to give you any thing for making it get on? - No, farther than he said, he would satisfy me for my trouble.

Q.In consequence of this you got it done, and sent it home? - Yes.

Q. Now, be so good to look at that, and tell us whether you are certain that is the same press that you repaired, by the order of the prisoner at the bar? - Yes, it is.

Q. Is that the one that you got cast at Brodie's? - I believe it is.

Q. Have you any doubt? - I have no doubt at all.

Q. There is your own repair on it? - Yes, there is.

Q.Then, looking on it, there is no doubt in your mind that that is the same that you had to repair from the prisoner, Idswell? - No, no doubt at all.

Mr. Shepherd. Have you been used to make these sort of instruments? - Yes.

Q. They are used for a great many purposes? - They are.

Q. And a great many different trades? - Yes.

Q. You tell us, that you see Solomon Idswell two or three times; pray, who have you lived with two or three times? - I have worked for Mr. Ginger, and worked for four or five masters.

Q.Have you been constantly in work for these last four or five years? - Yes.

Q. How long ago since you was in prison? - Never.

Q. Do you mean to swear that you never was in prison for a charge? - Never.

Q. Were you never in a court of justice before this time? - Yes.

Q. What were you in a court of justice before for? - For a tool that I made.

Q. Never in a criminal court of justice? - Never.

Q. What do you mean by a tool that you made, a witness as you are to day? - Yes.

Q. Who did you work for? - Mr. Ginger.

Q. Were you ever in custody during the whole course of your life? - Never.

Prisoner. Here is Mr. Owen says, this man was in prison twelve months for coming.

Witness. If I was, I suffered the laws of my country.

Mr.Shepherd. How came you to tell me that you never was in prison? - Have you ever been in prison more than once? How came you to swear, that you had never been in prison? - I did not swear it.

Mr. Garrow. What was it for? - I was reparing a tool where there were coiners, and I was taken up for it.

Q. Were you convicted? - Yes.

Q. How long was this ago? - Ten years ago.

Court. What was the tool that you was found repairing? - A large press.

Q. A fly press, for cutting blanks? - Yes.

Mrs. CHESHIRE Sworn.

Q. Be so good to look, and tell us if you know the prisoner Idswell? - I think I have seen the gentleman.

Q. Attend to the questions that I put to you; you are here to day, though we could not find you yesterday. How much money did you ever receive of the prisoner at the bar, Idswell? - Either the sum of two pounds or two guineas, at three different payments.

Q. Where did he pay you? - He paid me partly at home, and part of the money he sent by the porter.

Q.What did the porter take away with him when he paid you the money?- He took a thing the same form as this.

Q. Did you go with the porter? - The first time it was delivered, I went with the porter.

Q. Where did you go to? - I went to Baker's-buildings, to the best of my knowledge.

Q. Did you see Mr. Idswell there? - No, Mr. Idswell was not within when I went into the house.

Q. But did he come before you went away? - Yes.

Q. Then you staid till he came? - No; I was coming out, and as I was coming out, he came in, and I turned back. He said, you came home in time. I said, between eleven and twelve; and I said, we were rather watched by a person. He said, he did not do any thing that was unlawful, and that they might come home and see what was transacted; as he did not do any thing that he was afraid of.

Q. Did he try the press, to see if it went easy? - No.

Q. Did he ever, in your presence? - No, he did not in my presence; he never put any thing to it.

Q. Did he make any observation on the instrument going either free or stiff, or any other observation on it? - He said, that the sliding bar would go stiff; and I said, it will go better when you put some oil on it.

Q. What was it placed upon when the porter took it home? - On a mahogany table, in the one pair of stairs room.

Q. How often have you seen this under your husband's care? - It has been broke twice or three times, to the best of my knowledge.

Q. And did Mr. Idswell pay you for all that was done? - Yes, and for other jobs likewise; we made him a screw driver.

Q. Do you remember when any thing passed about going up stairs? - That was where Mr. Idswell lived.

Q. Did you go up stairs every time you went? - I only went home with it once.

Court. It was three times at your house to be repaired? - Yes, three times after it was first done.

Q. Do you know what your husband did with it? - He put inside the same as he did in that, the braces.

Q. You said you were watched? - I told Mr. Idswell that the porter and I seemed to be watched through Falconer-square.

Q. You told Mr. Idswell that? - Yes.

Q. Is that the same that the braces were put to? - It seems to be the same. It is one like it in the same form.

Mr. Knowlys. How many years have you been married? - Eight years, the 11th of February.

Q. Did you know Mr. Cheshire before you were married? - Yes, before I was first married; I have known him about fourteen years. I know when Mr. Ginger fetched him from Birmingham.

Q. Did you ever see Mr. Cheshire in Newgate? - No, I was married to another man then.

Q. He was there then? - Never to see him, I knew he was there. I lived in the neighbourhood at the time that he was a prisoner.


Q. I believe you work with Mr. Brodie, a founder? - I do.

Q. Be so good to look at that instrument that stands here; tell us whether the cast part of that was cast by you, by the direction of Cheshire? - I have seen it before at Bow-street. I apprehend it is; it has the same appearance of the one that I cast by his direction.

Q. Did Cheshire give you the direction for that you see in Bow-Street? - Yes.

Q. Do you know the prisoner at the bar at all? - I had no knowledge of the person at all. The first time that we made a small press of this description, there came a strange person to order it, and Mr. Cheshire came the next day for it.

Q. Nor you don't now know the person? - I don't know that I do.

Q.Have you ever seen the prisoner at the bar, upon your oath? - That person looks like the person.

Q. You have not seen him since he has been in custody, and therefore you may be very honest for what I know. Do you believe the man at the bar, to be the person that you describe as a stranger that came to you giving the order for the press? - Yes, I believe it is, and I thought the paper described the person that came about the press.

Q. You see an advertisement, and you thought that described the person? - Yes, I did.

Q.Looking at him, do you think that that is the man? - Yes, I really believe to my conscience that that is the man.

Q. And the press which you verily believe in your conscience the prisoner ordered, was fetched away by Cheshire? - It was.

Court. That is not this press, but a smaller? - Not this, a smaller.

Mr. Knowlys. These presses are made for a great many other things? - Yes, they are manufactured to the weight of five hundred weight for clothiers.

Jury. Pray were you present when the person came to give the order? - I was present in my own house, and called out by the clerk of the shop.

Q. Was it Cheshire, or the stranger, the prisoner? - I took it of a stranger.

Q.Which stranger you believe to be the prisoner? - Yes.

Q. And that press was afterwards took away by Cheshire? - It was.

Mr. Shepherd. But you never saw the stranger, whoever he was, about that press after? - No, I did not.

Court. When was the order given to you about this small press? - About the beginning of February.

Q. To Cheshire. What did you do with the small press that you received in February? - It was the same size as this; the porter took it away after I put it together.

Mr. Garrow. It was the one that your wife went home with? - It was.


Q. You are the wife of Anthony Smith, of a place called Church-entry, Blackfriars? - Yes.

Q. How long have you been acquainted with the prisoner Idswell, and his brother that is deceased? - About two years as nigh as I can tell.

Q. Who were they first introduced to you by? - By their sister, Mr. Simon Jonas's wife.

Q. Do you remember in the month of February, the prisoner and his brother coming to your house? - Yes.

Q. What day? - I cannot tell, I believe about the 5th of February.

Q. They came together, did they? - Yes.

Q.Be so good to tell us what past between them when they came to your house? - The young man, he that is dead, asked me if I had a room to let, and I told him yes; and he asked me if I had a garret, I told him yes, and he went up stairs to see it. The young man ran up stairs by himself as far as I know, he went up stairs and did not stay any longer than to go up and down; and I said, sir, will it do? he said he did not know, but he would call in a day or two and let me know. The young Mr. Idswell he called a day or two after, and asked me if I had a key to either of these garrets? - I said, I believed there was one in one of the doors. I advised him to have the biggest, becauseit had two windows, but the young one said he would take the least, and he gave me half a guinea earnest.

Q. When did they come and take possession of the place? - They never had their things in my house to my knowledge. On Shrove Tuesday he asked me, says he, what time shall you be up to-morrow. I said, I shall be up between six and seven; says he, I shall send in some things. The next day Mr. Jonas called at my house, about eleven o'clock, and asked me if I had seen either of his brothers; and I said no, and he went away, and in ten minutes he returned with the prisoner at the bar; then they rested at the school room door and spoke to each other, and I spoke to Mr. Idswell. I said to Mr. Idswell, your brother is a pretty gentleman. I thought he was to bring his tools in and come to work; says he, Mrs. Smith, my brother he is under a little dilemma, he is arrested; then they went out together, and about eight o'clock the prisoner and Jonas called again, and I asked if they had seen their brother? they said, no, they were going to see him, and if they did not make haste, they should not see him before he was locked up.

Q. Be so good as to look at the board before you. Did you ever see it before? - About six o'clock that day a man brought it down from the garret, and took it down into the school room.

Q. Was that the same day as Mr. Idswell was arrested? - Yes.

Q. Had you ever seen this before? - No, never.

Q. It was no part of your property? - No, it was not.

Q. You did not know that such an article was in your garret? - I did not.

Q. Are you sure it was not there before Idswell took your garret? - Yes.

Q. When it was brought down into your school room, was it as it is now, or had it legs to it? - Then it had. The man put it in the wash house, and when Mr. Idswell came, I told him that a man had been to take a table out of the garret, and it was in the wash house, and he said there let it be, and I asked him what I was to do with the legs? there were two pieces of legs loose laying down; he said, I might have them for fire wood.

Q. I believe they were in fact cut up for fire wood? - They were.

Q. The officer came to your house very soon after? - Yes.

Q. How soon did they come to your house from Bow-street? - It was not ten minutes before they came; I don't know where they came from. I was had up to Bow-street, and I told them where that board was.

Q. Do you remember Mr. Idswell drinking tea at your house? - The brother did.

Q. Not this man? - I don't know that he did.

Q. Did he come at the same time? - He did.

Q. Did he bring any thing? - He brought a piece of iron in his hand.

Q. Did he shew it to you? - I should not know it again.

Q. Did he give it you to feel the weight of it? - No, he did not.

Q. What did it look like? - It looked like the bit of a top of a wedge broke off, to me.

Q. Did it look pretty weighty? - Not a great piece.

Q. Supposing that to be broke, what part of that would look like it? - I don't know that that is like it.

Court. You see that board brought into your house. Did not you? - No, indeed I did not.

Q. How often were they in your house? - The deceased Mr. Idswell, was several times at our house.

Q. Was not the prisoner there several times? - The prisoner was not there abovetwice or three times. He was twice, that I know of, on that day that his brother was taken up.

Q.Do you recollect a man of the name of Moses calling on him? - There was a man called but I don't know his name;(looks at him) I believe that is the man.

Mr. Garrow. You was out of town part of the time? - I was out of town from Thursday morning till Sunday.

Q. Look at Moses. - I really think he is the man, but he was not powdered nor dressed so when he was at my house.

Q. To Moses.Is that the woman that you saw? - That is Smith's wife.

Q. To Mrs. Smith. Did you ever see that iron part before? - No, never at my house.

Mr. Knowlys. You remonstrated with the Idswell that is dead, that he never came to work there? - No, it is the brother.

Q. You had never seen him come to work? - No, I never see him that morning.


Q. You are the husband of Mrs.Smith? - Yes.

Q. Did you know any thing of the Idswells coming to take a lodging at your house? - I cannot say that I do; it was Mrs. Smith's own transaction.

Q. Do you remember seeing a large piece of iron in a handkerchief? - Once.

Q.In whose hands did you see this piece of iron? - I believe, it was the deceased Idswell; I think it was.

Q.What sort of a piece of iron was that? - As near as I can recollect, it was rough, as if broke in two.

Q.Look at that instrument before you; if that was broke into any parts whatever, do you think that any of those parts would be like what you see? No, not any one part of it; it seemed in the form of a where not so wide as that.

Q.Do you know any thing of the legs of a table, what became of that? - It was chopped up for fire-wood, by the desire of the parties.

Q. You don't know of any such thing being carried into your house? - No, I do not.

Q. What does your family consist of? - My wife, self, and five children.


Q. You have been for some years acquainted with the Messrs. Idswells? - About two years.

Q. You are the proprietor of the house where they reside? - I have got the lease of the house, and I let it for one year, and they staid two in it.

Q. And you lodge in it? - And I lodge there as a lodger likewise; I was landlord and lodger.

Q.Be so good to look at a gentleman of the name of Moses; have you ever seen him there? - Yes, I have seen him.

Q. Used he to visit your tenants pretty often? - I have seen him often at the house.

Q. What part of the house used he to go to generally? - I never took notice where he went to; he might go into the kitchen, or parlour, but I never took notice.

Q. Was the garret in the hands of the Idswells, or of you? - The Idswells.

Q. I take it for granted that you did not know what was going forward there? - Not of late. Originally they gave me leave to keep some rabbits there, but they wished me to remove my things out; and since I have not seen what was in the garret; they kept it locked up.

Q. Court. You used to hear a thumping now and then? - That was not in the garret, it was in the next room to me.

Mr. Garrow. Originally, when you had the use of the garret, the thumping was not in the garret, but in the next room to you? - Yes.

Q.After they took possession of the garret, where did the thumping use to be then? - I did not hear it.

Q. While you had the garret, there was a thumping in the next room to you? - There was. I said to my daughter, when I see blank paper go in, it is my opinion they are making stamps. It was like the turning of a printer's press,but not fast, one after another.

Q. What rooms did you occupy? - I keep a room in the one pair of stairs, and one in the two pair.

Mr. Shepherd. You never heard any thumping in the garret? - No.

Mr. Garrow. If there had been the same thumping in the garret while you lived below, might it not be without your hearing of it? - It might very easily.


Q. Did you execute an order for Mr. Idswell last February? - I did.

Q. Where did you send it home? - To No. 57. St. Mary-Axe.

Q. To what name? - Idswell.

Q. The person of the man you don't know? - I should not know him again if I was to see him.

Q. Be so good as to look at this bill? - That is the bill for the skins, amounting to twenty pounds twelve shillings.

Q. You had foul them by a person of the name of Day? - Day packed them up, and London carried them.


Q. You delivered to Mr. Escott a certain parcel of stamped parchment? - I did; I marked them.

Q. You received them from Wolfe? - I did.

Q. The parcel you received from Wolfe, you delivered to Escott? - I did. (Looks at them.) These are the skins.


Q.You are in the service of Mr. Weatherby, and carried a parcel to St. Mary-Axe? - Yes.

Q.At whose house did you deliver it there? - At Mr. Idswell's, No. 57.


Prisoner. This man has been in the gallery all the whole trial.

Mr. Garrow. How dared you to continue in court? I move, my lord, that he be committed.

Witness. As I was subpoenaed on both sides, I thought there would be no objection to me.

Q. To whom did you communicate that you had been in the gallery during the trial? - I did not communicate it to any.

Q. Who desired you to stop, that you might not be examined? - Nobody desired me to stop.

The witness was ordered out of court, while the propriety and legality of examining him was argued by the counsel on both sides. Mr. Garrow concluded, that he should not examine him, but begged he might be called in, and committed to Newgate. The witness was accordingly called in.

Court. Where have you been during this trial? - I was up in the gallery.

Q. When did you come in? - When they were calling over the jury.

Q. You have heard what the witnesses have said? - I did not give any attention to them.

Q. Did not you hear me say, that no man should be examined that remained in court? - Yes, I did.

Q. What business are you? - I am a shoe-maker; keep a shop in Bartholomew-lane, near the Bank. I did not understand it; I never was in court to give evidence in my life.

Q. How came the prisoner to know that you was in court? - I don't know that.

Q. How did you dare to remain in court? the only way to prevent this infuture is, to commit you to Newgate tonight? - Indeed, I was ignorant of it; I never was in a court on evidence before; I hope your lordship will take it into consideration, not to send me to any place to confine me. (He was committed.)


Q.How many years have you been acquainted with the two Idswells? - I have known them from infancy, almost.

Q. You have had frequent occasions to see them write? - Not so well this; but the other I knew very well; he has been a client of mine; I have done several things for him.

Q. Have you been acquainted with the hand-writing of this prisoner? - What do you call acquainted?

Mr. Garrow desired the short-hand writer to be particular; asked him if he saw him sworn? and as he could not say he saw the witness sworn, he was now sworn again.

Mr. Garrow to Isaacs. You have been acquainted with the deceased Idswell from his infancy? - I knew them both.

Q. How long have you been acquainted with this prisoner? - I knew them both from the same time.

Q.Have you had an opportunity of seeing this prisoner write? - Never in my life, excepting once, about four or five years ago; that was in his putting his signature to an affidavit to arrest upon.

Q. Be so good to take this bill of fifty-five pounds into your hands, and attend to my question. I don't ask you to swear positively. On the oath you have taken, whose do you believe that hand writing in the body of the bill to be? - I cannot believe to it; I do not believe it to be Solomon's hand-writing.

Q.On the oath you have taken, whose hand-writing do you believe the body of that bill to be? - I am positively at a loss what to say. I do not believe that to be the prisoner's hand-writing.

Q.Do you believe it is not? - Attend a little, have you, besides seeing him write his name once, have you seen writing which you have known of him to be his? - Never in my life. I have had some writing, but I did not know they were him. I was concerned for a bunch-backed man in the Compter.

Q. You did not know from this man whether these papers that related to this bunch-backed man were his writing or not? - I never see him.

Q. Did you ever learn from Solomon Idswell whether the paper was his handwriting or not? Do you mean to say, that looking at that, you cannot form any belief whether it is his hand-writing or not?

Mr. Shepherd. I object to that question.

Witness. I have known both the Idswells; I was in the habits of using the coffee-house where they used every night.

Mr. Garrow. Then you choose to say, that you have no knowledge of his hand-writing, and can form no belief of it? - I cannot; I only see him write once, Solomon Idswell.

Q.Be so good to look at that, and tell me whether that is the hand-writing of the deceased Idswell Idswell? - That is the deceased's hand-writing.

Q.You have no doubt about that, I dare say? - No, that is his hand writing. When Mr. Escott shewed me these two papers, both men were living at the time, therefore I said that I knew Idswell's hand-writing, and this is it. This is a month or six weeks ago.

Q.(Another paper shewn him) Now, tell me whose hand writing the body of that is? - Idswell Idswell's; I believe it is.

Q. Look at it; have you any doubt about it? - Very little; I have no doubt about it; but it is a very great thing to swear to a man's hand-writing.

Q. Great or little, have you the least doubt? - No.


Q. I believe you are clerk to Messrs. Mount and Page, in Tower-hill? - Yes.

Q.Be so good to turn to your book the 19th of January last, and see when there you sold any quantity of unstamped seamen's powers on that day? - There were fourteen quires sold.

Q.Will you be so good to look at one of these, and tell us whether this is from your plate? - It is.

Q.Fourteen quires is a large quantity? - An uncommon quantity.

Q.You usually get them stamped for your customers? - Always, almost.

Q.Be so good to turn to the 17th of February? - Navy assignments, ten quires and a half, but I believe there was only ten quires; there was some other little thing to settle, which made it equal to ten quires and a half. I believe it was Moses who came for them.

Q. Who came for the first order? - He came twice; it was Saturday evening the last time.

Q.With you turn to the 20th of December preceding; you will find a quantity there? - There were then sold six quires of powers of attorney, and six quires of naval assignments, but I did not tell them.

Q. These were all unusual orders? - They were.

Q. Do other stationers who have these have their own plates? - Yes, always, almost Many stationers have plates of their own, besides our house.

Q. What quantity do you usually stamp at a time? - Sometimes ten pounds worth, sometimes twenty pounds, and sometimes thirty just as they are wanted. Any other prisoners stamp powers of attorney as well as us.

Q.They have always their own plates, they don't buy them of you to stamp them? - No, they do not.


Q. You are a clerk in the house of Messrs. Pratt, Smith, and Hardy, in Cheapside? - I am.

Q. Be so good to shew him the bill of fifty five pounds. Do you remember this bill being brought to your house to transmit to the country for acceptance? - I do not recollect its being brought to our house. I did not see it till after I came back from the country; I did not see it till after Idswell's confinement. I delivered him some gold by order of Mr. Hardy, on some bill transaction, as I understood it.

Q. Do you know that man, Moses? - No, I do not.

Prisoner. I leave it to my counsel.



The witness said he came into Court about four o'clock, after the trial had began; that he heard nothing of the order for he witnesses to be out of Court, till he heard the observation made by Idswell concerning Mashiter, when he went out directly.

Mr. Shepherd. Do you know a man of the name of Moses? - I do.

Q.What are you? - A watch-case-maker.

Q. I believe you have seen Moses in custody? - Yes.

Q. You, at that time, was in custody youself? - Yes.

Q.You have since been discharged? - I have, on bail. I am under my recognizance now.

Q. Had you any conversation with Moses on the subject of this case? - Yes, at different times.

Q. Be so good to speak out, and relatewhat conversation you have had with Moses on this case? - Moses was first in prison, in a room just above me. I was then suffering by the villainy of an informer, and I spoke to Moses about his giving his evidence.

Q. What did you say to him? - I do not recollect the very material conversations; I asked him if he came forward as a person who came forward for reward? he said no.

Q. Had you an conversation with him, in which he stated the evidence he was to give, the object of it? - He told me what evidence he was to give.

Q. Did he state to you his motive? - He shewed me a copy of his information.

Q. Did he say any thing about saving himself? - He said it was to save himself.

Mr. Garrow. I believe you have told us the very fact, You was in costody from an information given against you, consequently you had a great respect for informers.

Q. He told you that he was obliged to do it to save his own life? - He did, and I believe he shewed me some writings, which, I believe was a copy of his information.


Q. Do you know a person of the name of Moses? - I do.

Q. What are you? - I lately was clerk to the New Prison, Cold Bath-fields.

Q. Was that the prison to which Moses was sent? - Yes, it was.

Q. Did you go with Moses when he underwent his examination at Bow-street? - I took Moses up once to Bow-street.

Q. Was that when he was examined there? - I took him up on another circumstance, not on the subject of the prisoner at the bar.

Q. Did you hear Moses say any thing respecting giving evidence on this occasion? - Moses was in my apartment when I was clerk. When the prisoner at the bar was committed to our prison, I made a tender under the circumstances to the governor, Mr. Ayris, that he should have my room, that he should sleep in my bed chamber; and I would sleep in my sitting room.

Court. Are you still in the gaol? - No, I am not; I left it about three weeks. I have the misfortune to be in the king's bench for debt. I am brought up now by Habeas Corpus.

Mr. Knowlys. What conversation had you with Moses, on the subject of this case? - There was hardly a day ever past that Moses was not continually speaking to me about his situation as an evidence; always continually. I dare say if we talked of it once, we talked of it two hundred times.

Q. What did he say? - He expressed a deal of sorrow that the two brothers were likely to lose their lives by the situation in which he was placed, but he must do the best for himself, and for the sake of his family. He said that he had lived in intimacy with the two brothers for years, and that they had always behaved as men to him, and that they were on strict terms of friendship.

Q. Did he say any thing that you can recollect at any time? - I don't recollect that he ever said any thing else than wishing they might get through their difficulty both of them; and when the other brother was shot, he was agitated for several days.

Q. Do you know whether Moses had a copy of his examination at any time? - Yes, I have seen it.

Q. Do you know how he came by it? - I took the case by a messenger that came from the Stamp office; I took it to Mr. Ayris, the governor. He often wished to have a copy, and I asked Lavender for it at first, and Lavender said it would come from the Stamp office.

Q. Did you ever hear any person say any thing to Moses respecting his examination? - I don't recollect any thing about that.

Mr. Garrow. You can tell us of some very handsome offer that was made to Mr. Moses on this subject? - I never heard one in my life, never heard directly or indirectly.

Q. You are discharged from your situation now? - No, I resigned; I wrote two letters to that purpose.

The prisoner called six witnesses with whom he had dealt, who spoke of him as always paying them for what he had, and that he was a general trader.

GUILTY . Death . (Aged 30.)

Tried by the London Jury before Mr. COMMON SERJEANT.