Old Bailey Proceedings.
7th January 1884
Reference Number: t18840107

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Old Bailey Proceedings front matter.
7th January 1884
Reference Numberf18840107

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Sessions Paper.








Short-hand Writers to the Court,








Law Booksellers and Publishers.



On the Queen's Commission of



The City of London,





Held on Monday, January 7th, 1884, and following days.

Including cases committed to this Court under Order in Council pursuant to the Winter Assize Act of 1879.

BEFORE THE RIGHT HON. ROBERT NICHOLAS FOWLER , M.P., LORD MAYOR of the City of London; The Hon. Sir HENRY HAWKINS , one of the Justices of Her Majesty's High Court of Justice; Sir ROBERT WALTER CARDEN , Knt., M.P., Sir THOMAS GABRIEL , Bart., WILLIAM MCARTHUR , Esq., M.P., and WILLIAM JAMES RICHMOND COTTON , Esq., M.P., Aldermen of the said City; Sir THOMAS CHAMBERS , Knt., Q.C., M.P., Recorder of the said City; JOHN STAPLES , Esq., REGINALD HANSON , Esq., JAMES WHITEHEAD , Esq., and JAMES EDWARD GRAY , Esq., other of the Aldermen of the said City; Sir WILLIAM THOMAS CHARLEY , Knt., Q.C., D.C.L., Common Serjeant of the said City; and ROBERT MALCOLM KERR , Esq., LL.D., Judge of the Sheriffs' Court: Her Majesty's Justices of Oyer and Terminer, and General Gaol Delivery, holden for the said City, and Judges of the Central Criminal Court.

PHINEAS COWAN , Lieut.-Col.,








A star. (*) denotes that prisoners have been previously in custody—two stars (**) that they have been more than once in custody—a dagger (†) that they are known to be the associates of bad characters—the figures after the name in the indictment denote the prisoner's age.


OLD COURT.—Monday, January 7th, 1884.

Before Mr. Recorder.

7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-165
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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165. FREDERICK WHISKER (a Police Constable.), was indicted for wilful and corrupt perjury.


JOSEPH SHELFORD PAGE . I am Usher at the Hammersmith Police-court—on 2nd November I was present at the hearing of two summonses, English v. Sharp and Thompson v. Sharp—on 9th November I was present at the adjourned hearing of those summonses—on that occasion the defendant, Frederick Whisker, was called as a witness for the then defendant Sharp—I administered the oath to him—he was examined by Mr. Haynes, the solicitor who appeared for Sharp, and his evidence was taken down by Mr. Halle, the clerk, and afterwards read over to him—the Magistrate asked him if it was all true that he had said, and he said "Yes."

AUGUSTUS HALLE . I am second clerk at Hammersmith Police-court—on 2nd November I was present when Mr. Paget, the Magistrate, was Biting—the summons of Thompson v. Sharp was first called on—these (produced) are the summonses of English v. Sharp and Thompson v. Sharp—I took notes of the evidence—after Thompson v. Sharp was heard, the case of English v. Sharp was gone into—the prisoner was called as a witness on behalf of Sharp—this is what he swore. (Read:. "I was on my beat on 23rd October, near the Askew Arms. I heard something, not the constable's whistle, and went to the Princess Victoria. I saw a lot of men at the public-house, and some one said 'Look out, Jim, here is another one of these puppies coming.' Another constable was on the other side. I was on the south side of the Uxbridge Road. I arrived before the complainant fell down. I crossed over. I found the complainant and the constable there. The constable said the man had been making a great disturbance, and using abusive language towards him. I then asked the complainant to go away. On doing so he fell back on

his hands. I suggested to take him to the station. He crossed over to the other men, and went into the public-house. The constable did not in any way strike this man. The complainant was walking backwards. When I went up he was using abusive language. I did not lock him up, because the other constable did not seem disposed to. "By the Magistrate. "I came from the Askew Arms down Uxbridge Road, and on the other side.") That was all the evidence given on that occasion—the hearing was adjourned to the 9th October—the prisoner was again called and sworn—to the best of my recollection the evidence he had given on the 2nd was read to him again, and he added something, which Mr. Paget took down—Sharp was convicted in both cases, and had one month on each.

Cross-examined. Both summonses were heard before Mr. Paget pronounced his judgment—Whisker only gave evidence in one case, that was the charge of assault on English.

PHYLLIS THOMPSON . I am the wife of John Sandell Thompson, who is in the employ of the Public Record Office—I live with him at 7, Askew Terrace, Shepherd's Bush—on Tuesday night, 23rd October, I was in the Uxbridge Road, near St. Luke's Church—I saw on the opposite side of the road a police-constable, who I have since ascertained to be Sharp—he spoke to me, and followed me, and committed an assault on me, in consequence of which I went on to the Victoria public-house—this was about 20 minutes to 12—I was waiting for my husband—Sharp followed me to the Victoria—I spoke to an omnibus conductor of the name of English, who I knew by sight by travelling in his' bus.—at that time Sharp was standing at the corner—English was perfectly sober—he went across to Sharp—there was no other person there at the time; other people came up afterwards—English said to Sharp "I know this lady; she is a respectable married woman; what did you want to have anything to to say to her for?"—Sharp told him that he was drunk, and that he would take him to the station if he did not go away—he then knocked him down—I saw him do it—he struck out at him, and he fell—at that time the prisoner was not present—English got up and crossed over to where I was standing—Sharp went into the middle of the road and whistled—I then saw the prisoner cross the Victoria Road—Sharp told English that he would make him lose his badge—English said he could not do it by fair means, and he said "Well, if we cannot do it by fair means we will by foul"—they then walked away together—it is not true that English fell down in the presence of Whisker—I was present all the time—I left English standing near the public-house, and I went home—I afterwards went to the station and made a complaint—that was about 20 minutes past 1—my husband went with me—he was at home when I got home—the station was about 20 minutes' walk from our house—I was present at the Hammersmith Police-court on the hearing of the summons that was taken out by me against Sharp for the assault, and also at the hearing of the summons taken out by English—I heard the prisoner examined for the defence of Sharp—it is not true that Sharp did not hit English, or that English was drunk and using abusive language—I took Sharp's number at the corner of Askew Crescent.

Cross-examined. The Princess Victoria lies a little way back out of the Uxbridge Road, the' busses stop in front of it—there is a letter-box at the corner of Victoria Road—I saw a plan similar to this

(produced) at the police-court. (The witness pointed out on the plan the place where English was knocked down and the position in which the different persons were.) I was greatly excited and agitated by what Sharp had said to me—I was crying, and was rather ruffled—the prisoner was not standing by the Victoria at the time I spoke to English—Sharp was not going down the Uxbridge Road on his beat when English followed him—I heard nearly everything that passed between them—I should not like to say that I heard everything that passed—when Sharp knocked English down there was no one near, there was some one coming along, there were three people standing outside the Victoria—the postman went by and one of the bus drivers—the letter box was in a wall by a garden—I did not say before the Magistrate that immediately after English was knocked down the defendant came across the Uxbridge Road to Sharp—Sharp whistled, and then the defendant came up—he passed by me, coming from the direction of Askew Crescent.

Re-examined. The whistle was not till after English had been knocked down—the public-house was open at the time, the gas was alight—I don't think the whistle was with an instrument.

JAMES ENGLISH . I live at Shepherd's Bush—I am a conductor in the service of the London General Omnibus Company—on Tuesday night, 23rd October, I came with my omnibus to the Princess Victoria; it was my last journey, I got there about 25 minutes to 12 o'clock—I went into the public-house leaving, the driver Weaver on the omnibus—we have a room at the public-house in which we keep our coats and things—I took mine inside, I only remained inside about a minute or two, I had nothing to drink then; I came out, I saw Mrs. Thompson crying—she made a complaint to me and pointed out constable Sharp—he was standing on the pavement at the corner—I know Mrs. Thompson as a passenger by my omnibus—I went up to Sharp and spoke to him about interfering with her—he told me to mind my own business—I told him it was my business to interfere—he said we were a lot of b——drunken' bus-men and he would lock me up—I asked him what he was going to lock me up for—he crossed the road—I said "I will go to the station if you want to lock me up"—he then turned round, struck me in the chest, and knocked me down—I said "Look what he has done"—other people were present at the time, there was no other constable present—when I came out of the house I am quite sure the prisoner was not there—I got up—Sharp went on two or three steps and whistled—the prisoner came up afterwards, I do not know from what direction he came—I did not use any abusive language to Sharp either before the prisoner came up or afterwards—I was wearing my badge at the time and I had my bag of money by my side—Sharp and the prisoner walked away together—I went back to Mrs. Thompson and told her to go home—I did not see the letter-carrier—after Mrs. Thompson had gone away I went into the public-house and had some drink—I waited there some little time talking about it—I then went to the office with my money bag and afterwards went to Hammersmith Police-station; it was about two miles off—Weaver went with me—we went in a cab—I saw the acting sergeant there—that was about 20 minutes past 1 o'clock—I made a complaint to him—I afterwards took out a summons at the police-court—I was sober when I got to the station—we went back in the cab—I gave evidence for Mrs. Thompson and also on my own behalf before Mr. Paget.

Cross-examined. The only drink I had after I was knocked down was two half-pints—that would not affect me—Sergeant Crampton was on duty at the station—I did not hear him swear at the police-court that I was under the influence of drink, I was not in Court at the time; if he said so it is not true, I was excited and annoyed—I thought I was very ill-treated—the prisoner did not say anything to me—I did not complain to him that Sharp had ill-treated me—Sharp was not going away on his beat when I followed him, I was annoyed at the language he used to me—I never use bad language; very seldom, perhaps I might sometimes, I never make use of beastly language—I was once summoned by the police for loitering and fined a shilling—I produce my summons—I did not see the prisoner the moment I got up from the ground, it was a minute or two after—I lay there for a minute or two, I was not stunned by the blow, I laid there because I was surprised the man should knock me down—he struck me in the chest—after I got up I saw the prisoner; I had nearly got back across the road when I saw him—I got to the Princess Victoria and waited there for a minute—when I saw him he was just coming up alongside of Sharp—he came from the direction of Victoria Road way—I did not see two women there, or a letter-carrier—the prisoner might have been there and I not see him.

Re-examined. At the time I was knocked down the prisoner was not there, he was not within sight—I suppose he was in uniform—it was in the dark.

FRANCIS WEAVER . I am an omnibus driver in the service of the London and General Omnibus Company—on Tuesday night, 23rd October, about 11.40, I was with my omnibus outside the Princess Victoria—English was my conductor—we had just finished our last journey—he was quite sober—I saw Mrs. Thompson there; she complained to me—I was then on the pavement taking my clothes into the house—I saw the constable Sharp at the corner of the Victoria public-house some few paces from me—English came out of the house and he went and spoke to Sharp—I was standing by the Victoria with two other' bus-men, Bennett and Soden, and Mrs. Thompson—I didn't hear Sharp say anything—he walked across the road and English followed him—I was standing talking to Mrs. Thompson and the two bus-men when I heard English say "See what he has done to me"—I looked round and saw him on the ground—Sharp was the only constable there at the time; the prisoner was not there till afterwards—I went up to Sharp and said "What did you do that for?"—didn't hear him say anything—English came across the road and joined us at the corner of the Victoria—the prisoner came up from the Uxbridge Road on the off side of my' bus and joined Sharp—that was after English had been knocked down—Sharp and the prisoner walked up the road towards London—I took my omnibus home and put it iu the yard; that was 300 or 400 yards off—some time afterwards English and I went to the police-station and complained to the sergeant ou duty of what had taken place—he was sober.

Cross-examined. We had started from Ludgate Circus; we had not sopped at any house on our way back—English never got down to have anything; I never saw him do so—I saw a letter-carrier about two minutes after English was knocked down—I didn't look across the road till English was knocked down—I didn't say before the Magistrate' that Sharp knocked him down; I said "I don't know who knocked him down,

but I saw him on the ground"—I didn't a peak to the prisoner at all—I didn't see a woman there—I saw no woman but Mrs. Thompson—I heard no whistle.

LEWIN FENNER . I am a letter-carrier and live at Shepherd's Bush—on 23rd October, about 11.40, I was coming along the Victoria Road, and was going to empty the letter-box at the corner—I came along the Victoria Road towards the Uxbridge Road—I saw Sharp and English—I saw Sharp knock English down—he hit him from the shoulder with his right hand, and he fell on his back on the pavement—I was about 10 yards from him—I passed by; English was then on the ground—he said to me "Look here, postman, what he has done"—at that time there was no other constable there—I went and emptied the letter-box and returned the same way—at that time English had got back to the side of the road by the public-house—Sharp was still standing in the same position—the prisoner was not there then—I saw him come up afterwards—I didn't see from what direction he came, but he must have come from the Uxbridge Road way—I didn't hear English use abusive language—I heard Sharp say "I will have your number off you," or something to that effect—the prisoner was there at that time—I know nothing of any of the parties.

Cross-examined. I am sure the prisoner was not there when English was knocked down—he might have been there and I not see him—I was going to get my letters—the road is very narrow; you can see on both sides—I took out my letters after the blow was given—I am positive the prisoner was not standing with Sharp at that time—I saw him afterwards standing with Sharp—I don't know how long he had been there; it was all over then.

WILLIAM BENNETT . I am an omnibus driver—on Tuesday night, 23rd October, about 11.40, I was at the Princess Victoria—I saw English, Weaver, and Mrs. Thompson there—she was crying—she spoke to Weaver; I heard her complaining—I heard English tell Sharp that she was a respectable lady—English was sober—he didn't use any bad language—Sharp said to him "You are drunk"—English said if he was drunk he would make him take him up, and he wanted to know the nearest police-station—English was on the ground; I don't how he came there, I didn't see him knocked down—I heard him say "Look what he has done; he has knocked me down and hit me on the right side"—I was going over to the other side of the' bus—English was then on his feet; he had got up, he was on the pavement close to where he was knocked down—Sharp went into the middle of the road and whistled, and the prisoner came up—I didn't hear him say anything—I saw the postman there—the prisoner went and spoke to Sharp and he pushed me off the pavement and said "Don't interfere with the police on their duty," and he went away.

Cross-examined. The moment I heard English say "Look what he has done to me," I was going over; he was just up on his feet—as I was going into the middle of the road the prisoner drew my attention by his bull's-eye at the other side of the 'bus; how long he had been there I don't know—it was about 200 yards from where English was knocked down to the omnibus—I was not called at the police-court—after English had been knocked down I told him to come away, that the lady's husband would take it up in the morning—we went into the public-house together, and spoke together—I didn't notice the direction from which the prisoner came.

JOHN SODEN . I am an omnibus conductor; Bennett is my driver—I was at the Princess Victoria on this Tuesday night, the 23rd October—I heard English call out—I went out shortly after, and saw Mrs. Thompson here and Sharp—English was standing outside the Victoria—I heard him talking—I didn't hear what he said—shortly afterwards I heard English call out "Look what he has done; he has knocked me down"—I didn't see him knocked down, I looked and saw he was down—Sharp was close to him—English was up when I went across the road—I heard a whistle after that, and I saw the prisoner come up—English was sober—I didn't see any woman there but Mrs. Thompson.

Cross-examined. I was not examined at the police-court—I didn't know that I had to appear till I had my subpoena—I didn't see any blows given—I saw a letter-carrier—it might have been a minute or two after hearing the whistle that I saw the prisoner—the road is about ten yards wide.

JAMES CRAMPTON (Police Sergeant T. 52). I am stationed at Hammersmith Police-station—Sharp was on fixed point duty near the Princess Victoria from 5 o'clock in the evening till 1 o'clock in the morning, in uniform—Whisker was on duty that night in uniform; his beat came round a portion of Sharp's; it ends at the corner of Victoria Road by the Princess Victoria—I was at the station on this night—about 12.45 English came there and made a complaint; Weaver came in afterwards—I told him what he was to do about taking out a summons—he was in the station about five minutes—he was under the influence of drink; he was not drunk; he was not excited—I put it down to being under the influence of drink—he could walk well, as far as I could see; he talked scarcely intelligibly—I referred him to the police-court—about a quarter of an hour after English had left Mr. and Mrs. Thompson came and complained about Sharp—I told Mrs. Thompson to write a statement—she did so—this is her statement—before they left Sharp came in; about 1.15—she identified Sharp as the man who had insulted her—I told him the purport of Mrs. Thompson's statement, and he wrote out this report—I did not see Whisker till the following night; both the men were under me as sergeant for that night.

Cross-examined. I only had authority over them for that night—I have been eleven years in the force; I have risen from the ranks—I can tell whether a man is under the influence of drink or not—I have seen a good deal of it—in my opinion English had been drinking.

The following Witnesses were called for the Defence:.

RACHEL LEWIS . I live at 5, Victoria Road, Uxbridge Road—my mother is a laundress—on Tuesday night, 23rd October, I had been out to collect some money for my mother, and between 11.30 and 12 o'clock I was coming along the Uxbridge Road from the direction of Westbourne Park; when I got near the corner of Victoria Road, facing the Princess Victoria, I saw Mrs. Thompson talking to some' bus-men—I saw one of them, English, leave the group and go towards the constable Sharp—English was very excited; he was shouting at the top of his voice, and by his actions I should judge he was under the influence of drink—he said to Sharp "Come on, I have been longing to have a go at some of you b——coppers.—Sharp at that time was in the act of turning to go across to Victoria Road; he turned round to face him, and English walked backwards,

Sharp facing him, and as he was walking backwards it appeared as if he stumbled up against something and fell down—I was about ten yards off—I did not see any actual push; I saw him fall—as he was advancing towards Sharp the second constable came up behind from the direction of Askew Crescent; that was before he fell—I am quite sure about that—he was about two yards behind him—I went to the police-court on the day the prisoner was committed for trial—I had seen the solicitor, Mr. Haynes, before that.

Cross-examined. I live with my mother—I went to the police-court three times—Sharp was convicted before I went; it was on a Wednesday that I went when the prisoner was charged with perjury—I offered to go down for Whisker—I told one of the constables on the Sunday night when I was out; he told me that the second man was charged with perjury, and I said "Then I will go down for him as a witness, for I was there"—it was a constable named Allen, who I knew, that told me—I have known him about a year; not walking with him or chatting with him—I knew him to speak to about three times—it was some night after Sharp had been convicted that I spoke to him in the street—I asked him "Is it true that the constable Sharp is convicted?"—I only knew Sharp's name by seeing it in the newspaper—I had seen him—I did not know him—I don't remember having spoken to him before this occurrence—I did not know him as a friend of Allen's; I had never seen him with Allen—I had seen him—I spoke to him that night as I stood at the corner—I did not know him before, or the prisoner—I did not know him by sight—I spoke to Allen first—I asked him if it was true that he was convicted—I had seen it in the paper—he said it was quite true—I had not read it in the paper; I heard some one speaking of it who had read it—when Allen spoke to me, I went to the police-court—I was not called as a witness—I went there, but was not called—I saw Mr. Haynes before I went—I made a statement to him—I saw him that morning before I went to the police-court—I was going home on this night when I saw Mrs. Thompson talking to some' bus-men—I did not see her crying; I don't know whether she was crying—I did not go over to see—I was about ten yards from them—I saw English advancing across the road towards Sharp—he fell back in the roadway—I was about ten yards from him—I did not see any blow struck—Sharp was near to him when he fell; he was within striking distance—it appeared to mo as if he stumbled and fell. (A statement of the prisoner's before the Magistrate was here read:. "I am innocent of what I am charged with. I reserve my defence on the advice of my solicitor. I will not call any witnesses till my trial.")

ELIZA PAVITT . I live at 7, Morton Terrace, Greenside Road, Shepherd's Bush—I was in service as cook with Mrs. Stevens of Strathmore, 408, Uxbridge Road—Mary Ann Giblet was my fellow-servant as housemaid—on Tuesday, 23rd October, about half-past 11 or a quarter to 12, I was going with her to a chemist's shop near the Victoria—as we were returning I saw a woman followed by a constable—she went towards the Victoria, went up to a man, and then went on—I did not notice more than one man there—I did not hear anything that passed when she went up—we went towards home; we met the prisoner—I did not know him before—he was a short distance from where the woman had been speaking to the man, about 50 yards—I said to him, "You had better hurry on, as

I think there is some jangling up there"—I said that because Sharp seemed to have been speaking rather loud to the woman—I saw Sharp turn the corner following the woman—the prisoner went on directly; I followed him back—I saw several men in the road, none of them were known to me—I saw a man fall, I did not see in what way he fell, his back was towards me—I saw the prisoner at the time the man fell, I should say he was about two yards off, he was just going up and I was close behind him—I saw the man get up again—I don't know what became of the people that were there, I did not take notice, I went home—I attended at the police-court on the occasion of the prisoner being committed for trial—I had previously seen Mr. Haynes and made a statement to him.

Cross-examined. The prisoner came to my house about a week after—I had not known him before—it was on the Monday following, before Sharp had been convicted—he then asked me to go down to the police-court, and I went on 9th November—I was not called—I did not see Mr. Haynes before that; I saw his clerk and gave my statement—I did not know Sharp or Allen—the prisoner came and asked if we were the young women that he had met—when I first saw him he was, I should say, 50 yards from the Victoria—I was going towards Askew Terrace, and met him—I left Sharp and Mrs. Thompson standing against the Princess Victoria—she appeared to be crying—I returned with the prisoner because I wanted to see what it was—I was about two yards away—I did not see English knocked down, I saw him fall; I cannot say how he fell; I cannot say whether he was knocked down or not—Sharp was close to him when he fell.

MARY ANN GIBLETT . I was fellow-servant as housemaid with Pivot at 408, Uxbridge Road—on Tuesday evening, 23rd October, I went with her to a chemist's shop—on returning I noticed a woman turning the corner of the Princess Victoria, a policeman following her—I heard nothing that passed—I saw the woman go up to some men as if to speak, but I did not hear her speak; we passed on and met the policeman; we had not gone more than two or three steps—Pavitt told him to hurry on as there was another policeman on farther—he hurried on—he had not more than two or three steps to go to get round the corner—I did not see what happened then; I crossed the road—I did not see English—Pavitt followed the prisoner back; she rejoined me in about five minutes, and we went home.

Cross-examined. We told the prisoner to hurry on because we had seen the woman walk up to the men and heard some loud talking, and the constable following the woman.

JOHN BATES (Police Inspector T). The prisoner is a constable in my division; he has been in the force for 18 months—he came with a very high character; I always found him to be a very sober, truthful, honest young man, careful in his reports and in everything he does—he has borne an unexceptionable character; he has had no reports against him—Sharp's sentence, I believe, would expire on Saturday—he was brought here last Session for the defence—he is not here now.


7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-166
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

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166. LAURA TAYLOR , Unlawfully throwing pieces of brick at glass windows in Percy Judd's house, and damaging them to an amount exceding 5l.

MR. PURCELL Prosecuted.

PERCY JUDD . I am proprietor of the White Bear public-house, Bride Lane—about a quarter to 9 o'clock on the morning of 20th December the prisoner came to my house—she was drunk—she asked to be served, I refused, and told her to leave the house—she refused—I turned her out, and immediately she got outside two pieces of brick came through two of my plate glass windows—I went outside and found the prisoner in charge of my man—the damage done was between 15l. and 20l.

CHARLES COLBOURNE (City Police Sergeant. 34). I was passing Bride Lane, and about 20 yards from the White Bear heard a loud crash, like the breaking of glass—I saw a man holding the prisoner by the arm outside the public-house—when I came up he said "I give this woman into custody for breaking our windows with these two pieces of brick"—she said "I done it, and I will do it again"—I took her by the arm; the two pieces of brick were lying on the footway; she tried to get to them, and repeated "I did it, and I will do it again"—I took her to the station—she was charged by the prosecutor, and in answer to the charge she said "Yes, I did it, and I intended it for his head," pointing to Mr. Judd—she was drunk.

Prisoner's Statement before the Magistrate."I don't remember anything about it. I call no witnesses."

Prisoner's Defence. I don't remember nothing whatever about it.

GUILTY .**— Twelve Months' Hard Labour.

NEW COURT—Monday, January. 7th, 1884.

Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-167
VerdictsGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentencesImprisonment > hard labour

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7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-168
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7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-171
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Reference Numbert18840107-172
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7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-173
VerdictGuilty > unknown
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173. FREDERICK HAKES (32) , Feloniously uttering counterfeit coin.


JAMES TYLER NASH . I keep the Hoop and Grapes, Farringdon Street—on 12th December, about 6.15 p.m., the prisoner and another man came in for a half-pint of beer and a small lemon—the other man tendered this bad half-crown (produced)—I marked it and said "How

many more of these have you got?"—they looked at each other, and the prisoner said "What's wrong? give it me back"—I said I should not—the other man paid with a florin, and I gave him 1s. 8d. change—I got some one to take the bar, and they both went away quickly, one towards Ludgate Hill and the other one towards Farringdon Station—I went after the prisoner and found him in Stonecutter Street, about 100 yards from the house, and gave him in charge—I saw a boy pick up a glove which had a good half-crown in it—the prisoner said he knew nothing about it—I saw him searched and a bad half-crown taken from him.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. Your mate called for the drink and paid for it—I can't say that I have seen you before, but I know the other man, and I said that he passed a bad half-crown at my house the previous Saturday.

GEORGE PEPPER (City Policeman. 407). On 12th December, in the evening, I was in Farringdon Street—some one called my attention to the prisoner, who was in Stonecutter Street, near the market—I went up to him with Nash—he saw me coming and walked towards me, and I saw him drop this glove behind him—I said "You have been in Mr. Nash's house, and you with another man have passed a bad half-crown"—he said "Yes, I went into the house, but I didn't pass the bad half-crown, the other man might have"—I went towards the boy Wells—he picked up a glove and handed it to me; it contained a good half-crown—I took him back to Mr. Nash, who said he didn't know the other man—I searched him at the station and found this bad half-crown in his waistcoat pocket, and a purse containing seven shillings, a sixpence, and 5 1/2 d. in bronze, and a bundle of pipe-lighters.

Cross-examined. It was about 6.15 o'clock—you didn't attempt to run away.

HENRY WELLS . I am a railway van guard—on 12th December, about 6.15 p.m., I was in Farringdon Street and saw Pepper and the prisoner—the prisoner dropped a glove behind him—I picked it up and gave it to Pepper—it contained a half-crown.

Cross-examined. I was standing outside the public-house and was told to look for a policeman, but I could not find one—I saw you come out, you did not walk very fast, you had your hands in your pockets.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . I am examiner of coins to Her Majesty's Mint—the coin tendered and the one found on the prisoner are both bad—the one in the glove is good.

The Prisoner's Statement before the Magistrate."I did not utter the counterfeit coin to Nash; I was there at the time."

Prisoner's Defence. I did not utter it. I was in the house with a man who has made me his dupe. He asked me for change for a half-sovereign, and I gave him four half-crowns. He gave me one back, which turned out to be bad, and I naturally said, "Let me look at it." I saw the policeman coming and walked towards him, but I had not passed anything; it is not likely that I should throw away a half-crown.


He then. PLEADED GUILTY to a conviction at this Court in February, 1883, of unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.— Judgment respited.

7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-174
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

Related Material

174. CHARLES TAYLOR (19) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.


ALICE BUNTING . I am assistant to Mr. Morgan, a tobacconist, of 104,

Euston Road—the prisoner came there for some tobacco on 27th December, and put down a florin—I tried it with my teeth, and he matched it from me and said "Give it to me, I know where I got it from," and went out with it without his change, leaving the tobacco on the counter—I saw him at Clerken well Police-court on December 26 with two others and picked him out.

HARRIET MORGAN . My husband is a tobacconist, at 104, Euston Road—on 20th December, about 8.30, I served the prisoner with a penny-worth of tobacco—he gave me a half-crown; I told him it was bad, and asked him where he got it—he said for his daily work—my husband gave him in charge with the coin.

GEORGE MORGAN . My wife showed me this half-crown, and I said to the prisoner "Where did you get it from?"—he said "I got it for my days work; you are not going to give me in charge?"—I said "Yes," and I did so.

JOHN MOORE (Policeman). I received charge of the prisoner, and said "Where did you get the half-crown from?—he said "I got it for my day's work"—he said at the station "A gentleman gave me this for holding his horse in Westminster Bridge Road."

WILLIAM WEBSTER . This is a bad half-crown.

Prisoner's Defence. If I had snatched a counterfeit coin out of her hand, do you think I would go in again afterwards? I am not guilty of the florin, and I did not know the half-crown was bad.

GUILTY of uttering the half-crown. — Six Months' Hard Labour.

7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-175
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

Related Material

175. HENRY MORGAN (36) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.


JANE ANN MILLER . I am barmaid to Mr. White, at the Falcon—on the night of 17th December I served the prisoner with a pint of beer—he gave me a florin—I put it in the tester, and found it was bad, and Mr. White gave him in custody—a woman was with him—she was taken to the station and discharged—I did not give him change.

GEORGE JOHN WHITE . I am manager of the Falcon—on 17th December I saw the prisoner come in with a woman; he ordered a pint of stout and mild ale, which came to 3d.—he gave Miller a florin, which she showed me—I found it was bad, and marked it, and said "I shall give you in custody for attempting to utter this coin"—he said something about a pawnbroker—he paid with a good shilling, and said "Don't lock me up."

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. I saw a pawn-ticket at the station, but not close enough to see whether it was dated that day.

HENRY MARKWELL (Policeman C. 165). I was called, and Mr. White said "I give this man in custody for passing counterfeit coin"—the prisoner said "I got it from a pawnbroker"—I searched him, and found a good sixpence and a penny—he said "I should not have done it if I had not been on the boose all day"—I took these two duplicates from him from Mr. Cloud, of Holborn.

Cross-examined. You told me you had pledged your boots—I went to your address and to the pawnbroker's, who did not know what coin he gave you.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . This is a bad florin.

The prisoner, in his defence, stated that he got the coin at a pawnbroker's, and received no other money that day.


7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-176
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

Related Material

176. HENRY JAMES (34) , Unlawfully having counterfeit coin in his possession, with intent to utter it.


JOHN LANGRISH (Police Inspector E). On 29th December, about 2 p.m., I was with Kenna in Drury Lane, and saw the prisoner with James Bold (See page. 301) and another man—Kenna took two of them, but one got away—I secured James, searched him, and found 10 counterfeit half-crowns in the tail pocket of his overcoat, wrapped separately in tissue paper—I said "These are counterfeit"—he said "Somebody must have put them into my pocket"—we had kept observation on them for some days—nothing was found on the other man, and he was let go.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. I know the Rum Puncheon—persons who have been convicted of coining use the house—I saw Boules hand you something at the public-house door—I only come to the conclusion that you are a coiner because you were in company with Boules.

JOSEPH KENNA (Detective E). I was with Langrish; I seized the prisoner and another man; the prisoner slipped from my grasp and Langrish caught him—he pulled me very violently—I saw him searched and the coin found on him—I took the other man to the station; no bad coin was found on him and we let him go—I had been watching the prisoner because I saw him with Bowles and saw Bowles hand him something at the Rum Puncheon door, and he went away with the man I took with him—they were walking together and I caught them round their necks.

Cross-examined. I have seen so many men at the Bum Puncheon dealing with Bowles that I cannot think of the cases—I only came to the conclusion that you were a coiner as you were in Bowles's company.

THOMAS PARTRIDGE (Police Sergeant). I was with Langrish and Kenna keeping observation on the Rum Puncheon public-house—I saw the prisoner and another man go in and come out again; they stood in the street a few minutes; Bowles came down some steps and they went to the public-house, and Bowles handed the prisoner something—I knew him as Bowles, but he gave his name Bold—the prisoner walked towards Parker Street, and Langridge and Kenna followed.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . These ten half-crowns are bad; five are from one mould and five from another.

The Prisoner called.

JAMES BOWLES . I have pleaded guilty to felonionsly possessing counterfeit coin—I did not hand you a packet outside the Rum Puncheon last Saturday week; you were not in my company.

Prisoner's Defence. I do not know how I came by these coins; somebody must have put them in my pocket; this is a house which coiners use, and they say they do not know me as a coiner. McKenna put his arm round my neck and I struggled to get away. If these coiners knew that the officers were outside they would be afraid to go out and they would drop the coins into my pocket. I never spoke to Bowles in my life, and never knew him till this morning.

GUILTY **.— Two Years' Hard Labour.

OLD COURT.—Tuesday, January. 8th, 1884.

Before Mr. Justice Hawkins.

7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-177
VerdictGuilty > manslaughter
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

Related Material

177. WILLIAM BROWN (24) was indicted for the wilful murder of Thomas Jones. He was also charged on the Coroner's Inquisition with the manslaughter of the same person.


JOSEPH CUTLER . I am barman at the Red Lion public-house, Old Street, St. Luke's—on Saturday evening, 22nd December, about 8.25, Thomas Jones and four or five others were drinking in our bar—the prisoner came in and had some beer and remained about half an hour—there was a dispute about paying for some drink—Jones said something to the prisoner which I did not hear—the prisoner called him a f----liar—Jones called him a liar—the prisoner had a walking stick in his hand and he struck at Jones with it—somebody knocked the stick down, and he did it a second time and the ferrule end of the stick went into Jones's eye and he fell down insensible—I can't say exactly how the prisoner's hand was, it looked like a thrust; Jones's eye bled very much—the landlord fetched a doctor, and he was taken to Bartholomew's Hospital—the police came and took the prisoner into custody.

Cross-examined. We have six compartments, and three of us to attend to them—there were about 20 people there.

At the conclusion of the evidence for the prosecution. MR. POLAND stated that he should not ask the Jury to give a higher verdict than one of manslaughter.

MR. BURNIE thereupon said he should not resist a verdict of manslaughter.

GUILTY of manslaughter. — Eighteen Months' Hard Labour.

NEW COURT—Tuesday, January. 8th, 1384.

Before Mr. Recorder.

7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-178
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceMiscellaneous > sureties

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178. JAMES FREDERICK SHAW KENNEDY PLEADED GUILTY to a libel on John Shaw Kennedy.— To enter into his own recognisances to appear and receive judgment if called on.

7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-179
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

Related Material

179. THOMAS WINTER (36) , Unlawfully conspiring with William Cantle and others to defraud the Army and Navy Co-operative Stores, his masters, and falsifying certain books and papers, with intent to defraud.

MESSRS. GULTON and. GOODRICH Prosecuted;. MR. BESLEY Defended.

JAMES BRENNAN . I am assistant to the housekeeper at the Stores—on 30th August I purchased half a pound of butter in the provision department, of a counterman named Matthews—I paid the money and took the bill to the prisoner and said, "Will you kindly initial it?"—these are his initials under the amount—Sergeant Jupe was present.

Cross-examined. I live at the depot in James Street close to the Stores—I am the son of a police superintendent—I am well known all over the Stores, and I can get goods there the same as other customers—the prisoner initialed the invoice in the ordinary way—the cashier took my money.

CHARLES LAMB . I live at 8, Vauxhall Bridge Road, Pimlico—I entered the service of the Stores on 29th June, 1876—I was a counterman

in the grocery department—I remained there till 7th July, 1882, when I was discharged for being absent without permission—in May, 1883, I entered the service of Mr. Whiteley, of Westbourne Grove, and continued there till September, 1883, when Mr. Whiteley discharged me in consequence of my name appearing in the papers in connection with this matter—since then I have been in the receipt of subsistence money from the Directors—I recollect the prisoner coming to the Stores in 1878 as a counterman in the grocery department; he remained till July, 1879—about the beginning of the year we were standing side by side when a lady came to me with an order—I asked her if I should take the bill for her to the desk—she said "Thank you"—I did not go to the desk or pay the money—the prisoner saw it in my hand and said "Halves, Charlie"—the ordinary course is for the customer to pay—I did not stamp the order, I kept it—the bills were kept at that time—I halved the amount afterwards—that went on from 1878 through 1879—we assisted one another; while one was going with the money pretending to pay it, the other would engage the customer in conversation—the prisoner and I divided 2l. or 3l. a week; more than 20l. altogether.

Cross-examined. I do not think I have stated before that the arrangement for one to hold the customer's attention while the other paid the bill existed before 1879—Deaks was employed there in July, 1882—he is married, and has one child—he was ill, and was receiving an allow, ance during his illness—I was entrusted with 22s. to take to him—I kept it back, intending to repay it—I was in great trouble at the time—it was discovered next day—I had been discharged before that—Rhodes was taken in custody as early as in November, 1882, I think four or five months after I was discharged—I saw his case in the papers—he pleaded guilty at the Middlesex Sessions—I didn't then give any information to the Stores—I was out of a situation then—I knew of Cantle, Wind us, and others being in custody in May, 1883, and while they were in custody and before they were tried I made a communication to Mr. Alchurch about keeping the customers in conversation and keeping the money and dividing it—he came to me—I wrote a letter, but I did not disclose anything to him; I arranged to go down to Mr. Dutton's the same evening—the interview took place outside Mr. Whiteley's shop—I went to Mr. Dutton's five or six times—what I said was written down, and I signed it—I only implicated Winter—I had had no quarrel with him.

HENRY HEWITT . I am assistant manager in the grocery department at the Stores—the prisoner entered the employment in 1878, and was placed as a counterman under me; he and Lamb were placed at the same counter, side by side—that continued till July, 1879, when the prisoner was promoted to be a shop walker—if any alteration had to be made in the cash book he would bring the book and the bill to my desk, and ask me to initial the alteration; I should first satisfy myself that the alteration was genuine—the assistants then were Pugh, Pass more, Lavender, and Harcourt, or Short, who succeeded Pugh—that covered 1882—in May, 1881, I gave a general order, finding that the shop walkers were initialling alterations, that when any alteration was to be made it was to be brought to me or to my assistants inside the desk—on 27th April, 1882, 8s. 2 1/2 d. has been altered to 2s. 2 1/2 d. and initialled; the initials are not mine, and to the best of my belief they are Winter's—on

1st May here is "Davidson, 14s. 2 1/2 d.," altered to 10s. 2 1/2 d., initialled to the best of my belief by Winter, and an entry in the name of Catton in May is initialled in the same way, to the best of my belief by Winter—on 6th May here is "Lee, 3s. 5d." altered to 3s. 2d., initialled to the best of my belief by Winter—15th May, "Tracey, 1s. 2d." is altered to 9 1/2 d., and on 19th May "Lane, 4s." is altered to 4 1/2 d.—31st August, "Rowney, 2l. 18s. 4d." is altered to 2l. 8s. 4d.—14th October, "Campbell, 2s." is altered to 2d.—1st November, "Parker, 1s. 6d." is altered to 1s. 4d.—these are all initialled in the same way by Winter—I only know the books by the numbers—No. 3 was, I believe, Cantle's book—the bill was brought to the check clerk, who has to enter the amount, and when the cash book is examined at night, it would have to correspond with the check book, and if there is any alteration they would both be initialed—here is the name of Raleigh, 2s. 3 1/2 d.; that is altered to 1s. 4d., but not initialled, and "Lee, 3s. 2d.," no alteration and no initial—"Davidson, 10s. 2 1/2 d." is not altered—"Cotton, May 5, 1882," is altered from 2s. 3d. to 1s. 4d., and initialled by the prisoner, as I believe—in the entry of They on 15th May, 1s. 2d. has been scratched out and 1s. 6d. Substituted—"Law," on 9th May, 4 1/2 d., has no alteration—Rooney, on 31st August, has been altered from 2l. 18s. 4d. to 2l. 8s. 4d., and initialled in the same way, I believe by Winter—"Housman," on 13th September, has been altered from 3s. 9d. to 1s. 3d., and initialled in the same way—"Campbell, 2d.," on 14th October, has no alteration and no initial—"Parker, 1s. 6d.," on 1st November, has been altered to 1s. 4d., and initialled in the same way, I believe by Winter.

Cross-examined. The first of these 10 cases of initialling in point of date is "Raleigh, 27th April, 1882"—in April, 1882, we kept five or six clerks in the grocery department to write orders for customers—they were provided with books and carbonised paper for writing in duplicate; it was done in triplicate at one time in the provision room, but not in the grocery—in 1879, '80, '81, and '82, they were not written in triplicate, but most of the customers wrote their own orders—the provision room is part of the grocery department—the man at the counter who makes up the goods files the order which he makes them up from—the customer would take away the order if it was written for him, but if he made it out himself he would not—I think we had as many as 40 hands behind the counter in the grocery department, and including the provision department; about 180 porters, packers, and clerks—the public would only see 30 or 40—the counterman would not file one order and initial the other, but the bill would be paid before he would be allowed to make up the goods; it would not be given to him till it was stamped "Paid"—it is not a perforating stamp, they have to stamp both bills—in April, 1882, there were two check clerks, one each side of the cashier; the amount of business done is very large, and a cashier would easily take 200l. or 300l., but sometimes not 100l.; bills are sometimes Very small, and sometimes very heavy—the check-clerk would write the number of the ticket and name and the amount—we do not allow anybody to buy unless have a ticket—Mr. Raleigh's number was 32410—we keep a record ✗ addresses, of new members, and of the persons introducing them—I ✗ written correctly in book D—Cottle was check-clerk then—✗emoer that we prosecuted him; I don't think so—I have only ✗ Court in this case—I have attended twice—I have no imputation

to make against Cattle; I don't know him—after the close of the day the total money in the cashier's hands is set out in his book, and the chief cashier, Mr. Yeldham, compares the amount in the cashier's book with the check clerk's book—Cantle's book agrees with Cottle's book at the end of the day on 27th April—Davidson's account, which was originally entered 14s. 2 1/2 d., is 10s. 2 1/2 d. in the check clerk's book—the system is for the check clerk to pass the bills to the cashier, who takes the money; anybody who saw a violation of that system is bound to report it—the prisoner should report it—there was another shop-walker in the same room—this is Mear's book—he has been convicted and sentenced—the original entry in Cantle's book of 10s. 2 1/2 d. is initialed by Winter—I find that Cantle was 3d. wrong in the addition, and here is "Cash over, 3d."—the next is "Lea, 3s. 5d."—in the check clerk's book is 3s. 2d. in red ink—the altered entry is in Cattle's writing—Cantle's book is altered, and initialled with reference to Lea, and at the end of the day I find the total amount of cash was passed by Mr. Yeldham, with the entry, "Cash short, 5s. 5 1/2 d.—I don't know whose initials these are—Mears was the check clerk on May 5th; his entry as to Cotton is the lesser sum—both have been altered, and both initialled by Winter—2s. 3d. is scratched through, and 1s. 4d. put underneath—this is Cantle's book—the cash at the end of the day, 74l. 14s. 10d., agrees in both books—they cast the books themselves—in Cantle's book on May 19th here is an entry, "Lawes, 4s. 4 1/2 d." which has been altered by the 4s. Being struck out; and the entry in the check clerk's book is 4 1/2 d., in Mear's writing—55l. 0s. 4d. was the total at the end of the day—the next alteration is "Rooney, 2l. 18s. 4d.," in Cattle's writing, which is altered to 2l. 8s. 4d.—these are my initials underneath, but I have no recollection of putting them there, or of seeing the erasure—I did not see it till the book was brought to me on the last trial—I have made no inquiries to find out who did it—Winter has initialled the 2l. 8s. 4d. in both books—in Cantle's book, on September 13th, there is "Houston, 3s. 9d.," which has been altered to 1s. 3d.—Marriott was the check clerk—he has been convicted and sentenced—they would compare the summaries at the end of the day, and the amounts are the same, 73l. 11s. 9d.—I cannot say whose the initialling is—here is in Marriott's book "Parker, 1s. 6d., and 1s. 4d."—they have both been altered and both initialled in the same way—the other book is Cantle's—the cash agrees at the end of the day after those alterations are made—the books at the end of the day would go into the hands of a superior person, who would take the cash—I cannot swear whether there are more than these 10 instances, as I have not been through the books.

Re-examined. I have only been through the books as to this case—on 15th May "Terry, 1s. 2d.," has been altered to "9 1/2 d.;" and on 31st August "Rooney, 2l.18s. 4d.," is altered to "2l. 8s. 4d.," and initialed by Winter, and there is a case which I have initialled, but I feel certain the alteration was not there at the time, because it would have attracted my attention after my giving orders—I know of my own knowledge that Mears and Marriott have been convicted of offences against the Store✗ don't know Cantle.

By the. COURT. The customer would go to a clerk in the Store ✗ the order for him—it would be written out and given to him✗ would go first to the check clerk, who would see that the add✗

right and stamp and number it—the customer would then go to the next window to the cashier, who would enter the amount and the number in his book, so that both books would correspond in amount and number—the cashier has a check clerk on each side of him, and the two books would always tally supposing there was no fraud, and the amount paid by the customer would be accounted for at 6 o'clock—the check clerk being on each side of the cashier, no fraud could take place except by agreement with the cashier to pass a false account.

JOHN WILLIAM CANTLE . I am a prisoner in the House of Detention—I have pleaded guilty to a variety of frauds at the Stores—I entered their service in June, 1878, and continued till 30th November, 1882—during that time I was in several departments—I became acquainted with Winter in May, 1881; I met him outside the Stores and he said "Are you going over to the Albert?"—that was a public-house nearly opposite—I said "Yes," and we went there—he said "Are you going to treat me?"—I said Yes"—he said "You have done very well to-day, have not you?"—I said "Did you see the lady inquiring about the 10s.?"—he said "Yes, and you ought not to mind treating me"—a lady had left a half-sovereign on my desk—he said "What sort of a fellow is your check clerk?—I said "He won't say anything about it"—he said "I can put you up to a good move"—I said "Tell me what it is?"—he said "When you get a bill get your check clerk to omit to enter it and give it to me, and I will give it to Bob Hughes, and we will share the money, and I will get the bill and destroy it" (we were all to share the money who took part in it—up to that time I had not committed any frauds in connection with falsifying the books; that was the first I heard of this system—I carried out a fraud of that kind soon afterwards)—I said "It seems right, but how do you know it will work right?"—he said "I have done it lots of times and made lots of money by it"—I said "I will see about it"—Mears and Cottle were my check clerks at that time, and Marriott came afterwards—this is my book—I find here "Raleigh, 3s. 3 1/2 d." altered to "2s. 3 1/2 d."—I used to do it in that way—I forget who suggested it—he said he would sign my book when I wanted it—he was to initial any alteration, and the accounts would pass as correct—I have seen Winter stamp bills with my stamp many times—he had no right to use it—when any alteration was made in the amount one of the foremen, He wick or Harper, should have initialled it; but if it was for a fraudulent purpose, Winter initialled it—this is Cottle's book—2s. 3 1/2 d. is entered on April 27, 1882; there is no alteration—he was out of his desk at the time for a few minutes—you will see that he is two numbers behind me—mine is entered 75 and his is 77, and it ought to be the same in each book—he got the entry from me—on May 1, 1882, "Davidson, 14s. 2 1/2 d.," is altered to "10s. 2 1/2 d."—that was done for me to appropriate the money—that is initialled by Winter and Mean—on May 6, 1882, as to the entry of Levi, Cottle was out of his desk again—it was the last bill we took, and one of us very often went out to wash—I gave him the amount—these entries of Lane, Rooney, Houston, Campbell, and Parker were all altered in the same way, Campbell from 2s. to 2d., Parker from 1s. 6d. to 1s. 4d.—we kept the difference in the majority of cases, but sometimes I had two bills and would make one do for the two—I cannot point out which was done in this case—I was indicted with Mears and Marriott for embezzlement—Windus was taken first and then Rhodes—I

afterwards saw Winter at the house of a man named Strange, at Kennington Cross—I asked him if they had found out anything about me, and he told me once that they were going over my books, and he thought it was all right and they had not found out anything yet.

Cross-examined. I had one book as cashier, and that was in use the whole day except when I went to dinner, when temporary clerks would come with their books, and a temporary clerk would be placed there if a check clerk went away; it would be contrary to rules for him to go away—this is my book—I was cashier, and two check clerks sat beside me; Mears and Marriott or Cantle—I believe I was with those three nearly the whole of the time I was there, but I was with Evans and Limmon for a little time—my book was begun on 10th August by somebody else, but my writing begins on August 15 at page 17—these are Mr. Hewitt's initials to this alteration at page 20—11s. 10d. is altered to 11s. 2d.—of course there was a reason for that, some mistake no doubt—Mears and Marriott were check clerks that day—this initialling in my book at page 26, August 15, is Mr. Lavender's writing—he is a head foreman; he didn't walk about the premises—I found him in Mr. Hewitt's office—11s. 8 1/2 d. is altered to 1s. 8 1/2 d.—I may have asked the customer if she only put down a half-sovereign—the check clerk's entry is in a book which is missing—these initials on page 38 are Mr. Brown's, a shop-walker—4s. 4 1/2 d. is altered to 4s. 2 1/2 d.; that was also on 15th August—I don't remember Brown ever initialling my book, but he must have done so because here are his initials—I should say that a shop walker would refuse to initial a book, and refer me to Mr. Hewitt, but here is the E.G.B.—on page 44, 16l. 18s. 6 1/2 d. on 17th August is altered to 16l. 8s. 8 1/2 d., and initialled by Mr. Lavender—at page 51 here is 5s. 8d., and I have put down 5s. 8d.; that is initialled by Mr. Hewitt—at page 84, 1s. 3d. on 24th August is altered to 1s. 2d., and initialled by Mr. Short house, one of the head foremen—there is a difference between a Shop walker and a foreman; one is in his office, but Winter would walk about with a stamp and stamp each bill—at page 93, 3s. 9 1/2 d. is altered to 3s. 7 1/2 d. and initialled by Mr. Short house—I have got the entry of Rooney under a consecutive number 53; that should agree with the check clerk's entry—he numbers consecutively—that is initialled by the prisoner; the amount is 2l. 18s. 4d., and it is altered to 2l. 8s. 4d.—this is Cottle's book—Mr. Hewitt has initialled to strike out No. 53—Rooney was entered 52 before it was struck out—I always made the entries after him—I have got an extra bill entered for 1s. 4d., and Mr. Cottle has got it later on—he has put down Norden 2l. 7s. 3 1/2 d.—Mr. Hewitt has initialled the erasure, and it is quite clear that it should be erased—it is not perfectly clear that he erased it before I received the money—the check clerk would not enter a name half way down a page and commence at the top again—the error is that this book is 52 and mine is 53—I mean to say that "Rooney" was not entered after Mr. Hewitt's initialling, if he had not erased it it would have been 54 in my book—as I do not find it in my book it is certain that Mr. Hewitt made the erasure before the next customer paid me any money—he struck out the bill altogether; the whole thing was erased—it is entered in the check clerk's book; there is no doubt about that—Winter has initialled the name of Rooney in my book, and it is initialled in Cottle's book also—I will undertake to say that when Cottle entered Rooney 2l. 8s., and I entered him 2l. 18s.

there was a fraud, but I do not say that Cottle was necessarily a party to it—his entry was not necessarily made before mine—I have not sworn that Cottle was mixed up in this fraud, and I did not intend it—I suggest that this might have been initialled afterwards; Cottle would of course know that—I don't know where he is—his account agreed with mine at the end of the day—I never gave him any of the money I took from the Stores, but I gave him some change that was left behind a long time ago; about 1882—he has not participated in any of my frauds or known of them—I did not associate with him, but I did with Mears and Marriott—I never visited them while I was in the employ of the Stores—I visited Marriott four or five months after he was discharged—I pleaded guilty on September 10—I have not been sent ended yet—I made one statement in the House of Detention to Mr. Dutton before I pleaded guilty—I had not seen the police to have any conversation with them—when I pleaded guilty I cud not know that I was going to be called as a witness—the trial was on the 18th, but the Sessions commenced on the 10th—I do not know how many persons have been discharged from the Stores—I have given evidence a good many times—I was never at Mr. Dutton's office; he came to me two or three times—I have only seen him about three times—I made statements to his clerk several times—I signed a number of sheets of paper the first day.

Re-examined. I have given evidence against Mears, Barge, Strange, and Winter, but not against Marriott—I did not plead guilty on Mr. Besley's advice—Brown was under Winter—I do not know that he has been discharged—I have been in custody—Lavender and Shorthouse were the persons to whom I should go when I wanted to make a bond fids alteration—I should take the bill with me and explain it, but when I took it to Winter I did nothing of that kind.

WILLIAM HERMAN PROSSER WINDUS . I entered the service of the Stores in 1879, and remained till November, 1882—I was in nearly every department—at the commencement of 1881 I became acquainted with the prisoner—I was then cashier in the grocery department, and he was shop walker there—I met him in the Albert public-house, Victoria Street, and he said "You cashiers seem to have the best berths in the Stores"—I said "I do not see it, as we are only allowed 3s. a week extra"—that meant that if our accounts agreed we had 6d. a day extra—I had not been guilty of any fraud then—he said "Do you mean to tell me you do not work it with your check clerk?"—I said "I don't understand what you mean; how is it done?"—he said "All you have got to do is to get your check clerk to leave out a bill, and you do the same, and divide the money"—I said "What do you do about the bill?"—he said "Say you want to get a mistake rectified, and get the bill, or if you give me the tip. I will get the bill for you"—he said "If I ever ask you for the stamp take no notice of it"—I had to stamp bills—I was the only person authorised to receive money—I was 19 years old at the commencement of 1881—I do not know the prisoner's age—I carried out his suggestion, and left out a bill, and he took my stamp nearly every day—in those cases in which he took my stamp I made no entry—I saw him stamp customers' bills with my stamp, and take the customers to get the goods—no entry of those matters appeared in my books—I did not receive any of the money the customer handed to him—that went on for

six months—Mears was my check clerk—he and Marriott were indicted with me—I sent in my resignation in October, 1882, having stopped away two days—I was not taken in custody for nine months afterwards—the prisoner did not receive anything in any of the cases where the bill was left out; his consideration was having the use of my stamp—I made what I could, and he made what he could.

Cross-examined. Mr. Hewitt was the principal shop walker in the grocery department; there were four or five other—there were four cash desks, but one department had only one check clerk and the others two each—they see everything that goes in in their department—I have seen the principal shop walker at the cashier's desk if there is any bother with a customer—any foreman could be called if there was a mistake—I do not remember Mr. Brown or Winter signing my book—I do not know who the informant was who led to my being taken in custody; I heard that it was found out by the books—when I omitted to enter the name of a customer I made a note on a piece of paper of the number of the ticket, so that I should be able to destroy the bill afterwards unless the prisoner had got the bill at the time—I swear that the prisoner assisted me in frauds—he used to get the bills and leave them with me to see if they were right, and I would destroy them—Cantle knew that—Mears was my check clerk, and divided the money with me—he knew of the bills being brought—he would not see them, out I told him I had got them—a man was sitting at each side of me, but we were partitioned off from each other—we passed a bill through a little slit in the woodwork—I could not see my check clerk without standing up and looking over the desk—the bills would be brought during business hours—I cannot give you any case on any day which was received from the hand of Winter, because they were so frequent—I have always said that Winter brought bills to the pigeon-hole which I had agreed with Mears not to enter, and I have given the details—I have not given any idea of the month or the customer's name or ticket number—I divided the spoil with Marriott, Evans, and Linham—Marriott gave evidence in Goldsmith's case, and Goldsmith was acquitted—I cannot refer to any writing or memorandum of Winter's in any pocketbook—I resigned partly because I feared I should be found out—no one had been taken in custody then—Rhodes was taken a month afterwards, and my brother a few days before Rhodes—I was remanded from time to time for two or three months before I was committed for trial—I made a statement before I was arrested quite voluntarily—Mr. Dutton took it down, and I signed it—I did not implicate Evans and Linham—I have seen Mr. Dutton's clerk; I can't say how many times—I was visited once by Mr. Chamberlain—my statements were read over to me before I signed them—I was before the Magistrate when the prisoner was charged, about 18th September—I was put back to give evidence against him, and have not been sentenced.

Re-examined. I gave evidence before the Magistrate—the prisoner was represented by Mr. Rymer—I stated that the prisoner got the bills from me.

HARRY JOSEPH RHODES . I was employed at the Stores, and was taken in custody in November, 1882, and pleaded guilty, and was sentenced to three months' hard labour by the Assistant Judge, which I have served and am now at liberty—I remember an order about a week before I was arrested that no counterman was to have communication with a cashier—

I met Winter in the Albert public-house about three weeks before I was arrested—he had seen me handing 18s. in silver to Lloyd, who was tried at the same time and sentenced to nine months' hard labour—he said "You are having a nice little game; be very careful or you will be found out; you need not be frightened of me, for if I knew a murder was being committed I should not round.—I was in the provision department, not actually in the grocery—Lloyd was a counterman and I was a cashier—Lloyd being unable to speak to me, Winter brought me a total of all the bills Lloyd had taken during the day, so that it agreed with mine, and I should not be found out—before that time the counterman was allowed to come and ask if his sheet was right, and it was done by direct communication between me and Lloyd, but afterwards Winter placed the sheet in at the window.

Cross-examined. I pleaded guilty in December, 1882, at Middlesex Sessions, to stealing from the Stores with Lloyd and Dixon—I was charged with embezzling 14s. first, and then various sums, 10l. For anything I know—I was also charged with falsification of the accounts, putting in the pence and leaving out the shillings, and Winter sided us by bringing the amount of Lloyd's cash-sheet two or three times a day—I destroyed the papers—Dixon was sentenced on December 14 and I was sentenced in January—Dixon would see the papers—I did not introduce Wiinter's name before the Assistant Judge—I first made a statement Implicating him in July, 1888, at Mr. Dutton's office—I had a letter saying that he wished to see me, and I went with my uncle—that was the first time I mentioned anything about Winter—I made several statements, and they were several hours taking them down—I have received the Court expenses—I first gave evidence against Barge, then Mears, then Strange, and then Winter—Strange was acquitted; he was not in the employment, he was a bicycle maker at Kennington Gross—I attended nearly every time when Winter was examined, out I was not examined—I saw Cantle and Windus there giving evidence—the counterman would make a cash-sheet as well at the end of the day—he would enter all the bills he had made up—he would have the bills on the file as well—Lloyd was counterman and I was cashier—his sheet and mine would be compared at the end of the day.

Re-examined. It was by my uncle's advice that I went to Mr. Dutton and made a statement—I made three separate statements—Barge and Mean were convicted—I am 19 years old—I was only 17 when I was convicted.

FREDERICK GEORGE NETHERCLIFT . I live at 10, Bedford Row, and have been 35 years a professional expert in handwriting—I have compared these initials with those on this bill—they are most decidedly the same.

THOMAS DUERDIN DUTTON . I am a solicitor, and am conducting this prosecution for the Army and Navy Stores—I was entrusted with the conduct of the case before the Magistrate, and when Mr. Netherclift had gone through his evidence, the prisoner, who had been sitting down in the dock, got up and said to the Magistrate "I admit those are my initials"—he was then stopped by his solicitor, Mr. Eymer.

Cross-examined. I first acted for the Stores in the autumn of 1882, before Rhodes was taken—that was simply a prosecution at the police-court, when a man stole some beef, and since that time I have represented the Stores in all criminal matters—I have from time to time examined persons at my office—when Cantle and Windus pleaded guilty

I did not, through my Counsel, ask that they should be put back to give evidence, nor was it suggested in my presence, and they have never been witnesses—Cantle, Windus, and Marriott were brought up before any of the others—83 persons have been discharged from the Stores in connection with this case, and a little over 20 have been prosecuted; 11, I think, were prosecuted at the September Sessions. (See Vol. XCVIII, p. 556.) Those who have been convicted here, or at the Middlesex Sessions, amount to one where about 20—I have no papers here to refer to—there were five convicted in November, at Middlesex, and I think 11 at the September Session of this Court, and I know there have been one or two since—I will not swear there were more than nine—Goldsmith was acquitted; I include him; he was in the service—I was not in Court—there are no more before the Magistrate at present.

Re-examined. At the time the other prisoners were sentenced, Windus was under remand at the police-court—Cottle and Brown, a shopwalker, were among the persons discharged from the Stores—with the exception of Goldsmith and Strange they have all been convicted.

WILLIAM CHAMBERLAIN (Police Inspector L). On 14th September, about 4 p.m., I took the prisoner at the Army and Navy Stores—he asked to read the warrant, and he read it, and said "What are the false ntries?"I said "I have had a number of initials shown to me in the cash book stated to be yours, I am informed you were told about two years or eighteen months ago never to initial any book by Mr. Hewitt"—he said "Yes, I remember that; I have never initialled any since, and if my initials are there they are forged by some one."

Cross-examined. I showed him an initial and he looked at it—I wrote the statement down within a few minutes—I told him he would be charged with conspiring with Cantle and others to defraud the Army and Navy Stores by false entries in their books—I did not mention any sum, and I do not think any sum is mentioned in the warrant.

Re-examined. I think Rowney 2l. 18s. 4d., altered to 2l. 8s. 4d., is the one I showed him—that statement was made in the presence of Abchurch, Jupe, and Sergeant Brennan.

JOHN ABCHURCH . I am housekeeper at the Army and Navy Stores—on the 14th September I was present when Chamberlain took the prisoner, who asked to see the warrant, and said "I have not initialed any alteration in Cantle's cash book since Mr. Hewitt gave me the order, and if there are any there they are forgeries.

Cross-examined. I did not mention at what time the order was given not to initial the books—I did not mention any time on the former occasion, and I mention it now for the first time, having heard you comment upon it—there are a great many persons in the grocery department—the grocery receipts are not over two millions a year, the gross receipts are about two millions and a half—after everything is paid the profits are about 50,000l., even when these thefts are committed.

Re-examined. I did not mention eighteen months or two years to-day till Mr. Besley asked me, but I am sure something of the kind was said on the last occasion.

JUPE (Police Sergeant L). I was present when the prisoner was arrested; he said, "If there are any they are not mine, for I never initialled any since I was told not to eighteen months or two years ago, if there are any initials they are forgeries"—I gave that evidence on the last occasion.

Cross-examined. I have not got a note of it—I was out of Court when Chamberlain was examined on the last trial—I said eighteen months or two years—I did not hear the comments of Counsel on that.

The prisoner received an excellent character.


THIRD COURT.—Tuesday, January. 8th, 1884.

Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-180
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty; Not Guilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

Related Material

180. AUGUSTUS QUACK (19) and WILLIAM BALL (19) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.


MESSRS. CRAUFURD and. HICKS Prosecuted;. MR. GEOGHEGAN defended Ball.

JOHN CLARK . I am landlord of the Prince of Wales beerhouse, Caledonian Road, Islington—on 6th December I saw both the prisoners in my bar at about half-past 7 in the evening—Ball called for four twopenny cigars and offered a bad two-shilling piece—I took it up and looked at it because it was light—I said "Give us a better one than this"—Ball picked it up, and then, without saying anything, brought out another, which was bad—I said "Have you any more of them?"—he did not say anything but gave them to Quack, and paid for the cigars with a good shilling—Ball made some remark to Quack—I could not swear to the words—Ball went out and Quack followed him—they had had some liquor before I saw them—I did not serve them nor see them served—I had seen them there about ten minutes—I called in a constable and next saw them about half an hour afterwards in custody at the station—both the florins were had—directly after they had gone out I searched my till and found another bad two-shilling piece there—I clear my till every day—Quack said nothing in my hearing—all the three two-shilling pieces have an exactly similar appearances.

Cross-examined. I did not try them in my teeth or in the tester, nor ring them—it was the weight and colour made me think them bad—my cousin also serves in the bar—she is not here—I dare say there would be about 200 people in our house during the day—Ball did not say when he gave the two florins back to Quack "I thought they were good;" it sounded like, "These four shillings would have' made you and I straight if they were good"—the 2d. cigars were produced—they were not smoked.

Re-examined. I can't say if all the money handed by Ball was taken out of the same pocket, or if the two florins were taken out of the same pocket—Ball took the cigars.

ELIZA JANE ROSE . I am barmaid at the Swan public-house, Caledonian Road, near the Prince of Wales—on 6th December the two prisoners came into the bar between half-past 7 and 8 o'clock in the evening—I served them about three times; first with sodas and two cigars—I believe Quack put down a shilling—immediately after Quack called for a pot of six ale, and paid for it with a two-shilling piece, and on the third occasion. Ball called for two Hanbury, and handed me a two-shilling piece I believe—I had placed the 2s. for the pot of ale on the sideboard, and given 1s. 6d. change—there were other florins there—I must have placed the two-shilling piece Ball gave me on the sideboard opposite—some time after, while the prisoners were still in the house, Mr. Bastow called my attention to the two-shilling piece Quack had paid for the pot of ale—I did not examine any other of the coins—Mr. Bastow spoke to the prisoners before they went away.

Cross-examined. I am positive I did not serve the banburys to Quack—I could not swear Ball paid with a two-shilling piece; I believe he did—Quack's last two-shilling piece was a bad one.

Re-examined. Each of the coins must have been placed separately.

THOMAS BASTOW . I am landlord of the Swan—on 6th December I was in my bar between half-past 7 and 8—the prisoners came in by themselves, and Quack called for two small sodas—Miss Rose served them—some time afterwards a constable made a communication to me, and Rose fetched me the two-shilling piece which she had received from Quack, as she said—she took it from the sideboard—it was bad—I said to Quack "Do you know you have passed a bad two-shilling piece here in payment for a pot of ale?"—I hardly remember whether Ball was present—after I had been to the station I went back, and was shown this two-shilling piece on the sideboard, near where the other was taken from—I should not like to say whether Ball was present when the constable came in; he had been out.

Cross-examined. This occurred on the 6th, and I was examined on the 7th—if I then said that Ball had left before I spoke to Quack, it was probably right—the police-station is about three-quarters of a mile from my house—I was away three-quarters of an hour, and when I came back the barmaid showed me some bad money, I think both these bad coins—I had to bend them before I could make up my mind whether they were good or bad—I have been a licensed victualler for 13 years.

WILLIAM BAKER (Policeman Y R 27). On December 6th I was on duty with Dinsmoor in the Prince of Wales—Ball came out, and Quack followed a minute after and joined him—I followed—they went to the White Swan, about 150 yards off—I went in about two or three minutes afterwards and spoke to Mr. Bastow—both the prisoners were there—I heard Quack call for a pot of old six—he tendered a florin—Rose served him, I believe, and put it on the sideboard at the back by itself—in consequence of something I said Bastow picked up the coin and brought it to me and bent it—Ball was sitting down; he did not ask for anything at this time—I said to Quack, "I am a police-officer, and shall take you in custody for uttering counterfeit coin"—I was in plain clothes—I searched him there, and found on him eight sixpences, seven shillings, 4 1/2 d. in bronze, two half-ounces of tobacco, three cigars, and some postagestamps, no bad money—while searching Quack, Ball stepped out of the door—I took Quack to the station—the other constable apprehended Ball shortly afterwards.

Cross-examined. I did not hear Ball ask for anything; I should have heard him if he had, except when I went out of the house to go into the other department to take Quack in custody—the other constable found the two banburys on Ball—Ball went out—it is a swing door to the public-house—he opened the door a little way and went out.

Re-examined. I noticed him just as he had got out—Ball was present while I charged Quack at the public-house, and he remained there till I commenced searching Quack.

ROBERT DINSMOOR . I was with Baker on 6th December, and went with him from the Prince of Wales to the Swan, into which I saw him go—I remained outside, and after some little time Ball came out—I said to him, "Where are your two pals gone?"—he said, "He has gone up the road with two detectives"—I was in plain clothes—I said, "I am a police-officer, I shall take you in custody for passing counterfeit coins in

various places"—he said, "All right, I know I have been boosing with them"—I took him to the station, searched him, and found 5s. 3d. In silver, 4 1/2 d. in bronze, a cigar, a half-ounce of tobacco, a knife, a key, and portions of two banburys.

Cross-examined. There was nobody with Quack but Ball, I invented the other man—I took down in writing what Ball said, there is no doubt about it—I made a note of what Ball said the night of the charge—I did not have it at the police-court when I gave evidence, I have not got it now—I did not say at the police-court that he said, "All right, I have only been booting with them," I am not positive about it—I made inquiries about Ball—he said he used to work for Mr. Hyman, who gave him a good character and said he was willing to take him back in his employment, and he trusted him in his private residence—I saw he thought very much of him—there are other charges against Quack—I took Ball opposite the Prince of Wales, about 160 yards from where Quack was taken—the prisoner was at work the day before.

WILLIAM JOHN WEBSTER . I am examiner of coins to Her Majesty's Mint—these coins are all bad—the one from the Prince of Wales is from the same mould as the one which Ball tendered at the Swan.


QUACK*.— Twelve Months' Hard Labour.

7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-181
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceNo Punishment > sentence respited

Related Material

181. JOHN ALFRED DORMER (16) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.


ADELINE TANNER . I keep a tobacconist shop at 15, Byre Street, Regent Street—the prisoner came to my shop about the 10th or 11th of December, and asked for a pennyworth of bird's-eye—he gave me a bad florin; I gave him 1s. 11d. change, and he went away—I afterwards gave the florin to my servant, Emma Laurie, to get change, and she came back with this piece of the coin—on 20th December he came again and asked for a pennyworth of bird's-eye, and gave me this shilling (produced)—I recognised him and sent for a constable, saying to him "Wait a few minutes, I am going to send for change"—a constable came, and I said to him in the prisoner's presence "I charge this man with passing bad money"—I am not sure if I said anything about his having been there before—one of my landlord's servants closed the door to prevent him escaping—I am quite sure he is the boy who came on the 10th or 11th—I remember him quite distinctly—my servant was not in the shop when he came the first time.

EMMA LAURIE . I was in Mrs. Tanner's service in the beginning of December—I was not in the shop on the 10th or 11th when the prisoner came, but afterwards she handed me this florin to get changed—I took it to a shop on the opposite side of the road and handed it to some one, who tried it in the tester; it broke—they kept the other piece; I brought this back—I was present on 20th December when the prisoner came and uttered a bad shilling—I have heard what my mistress has said—that is quite correct—she said nothing to the prisoner about his having been in the shop before.

FRANK SPIERS (Policeman C. 271). About 12 noon on 20th December I was called to 15, Eyre Street, and the prisoner was given into my custody—Mrs. Tanner said in his presence "I wish to give the prisoner into custody for passing a bad shilling; he came in about a week ago

and passed a bad florin"—the prisoner said he had got the shilling from an omnibus conductor; he said nothing then about the florin—at the station when charged he said he knew nothing about the florin.

WILLIAM JOHN WEBSTER . These coins are both bad.

The Prisoner's Statement before the Magistrate."I received the shilling from an Atlas 'bus conductor. The florin I know nothing about."

The Prisoner's Defence. I passed a shilling not knowing it was bad. I received it off a 'bus conductor. As to the two-shilling piece I know nothing about it.

MRS. TANNER. I kept the broken florin in the corner of a cupboard, and determined to watch for the boy if ever he came again.

GUILTY.— Judgment respited.

7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-182
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

Related Material

182. WILLIAM HARRINGTON (20) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.


DANIEL JARRETT . I live at 20, Moorgate Street, Borough, and keep a movable coffee-stall—on 16th November, about 3.15 a.m., the prisoner came to my stall near the Obelisk in the Waterloo Road, and asked for two eggs, two slices of bread and butter, and some coffee—it came to five pence—he gave me a half-crown—I gave him four sixpences and a penny change—he went away along the Westminster Bridge Road—it was not dark around the stalls; we had lamps—I looked at the coin after he had gone, and found it was bad—I went after him—I showed the coin to constable Larman, and soon after saw the prisoner coming out of a court in the Waterloo Road—I and the constable went up to him, and the constable asked him whether he gave this bad half-crown to me—he said "Yes; I did not know it was bad; I got it in change of half a sovereign at a fish-shop in the London Road"—I gave him into custody; he was brought up twice, remanded, and then discharged—he gave the name of Morton, I believe.

JAMES LARMAN (Policeman L. 245). On the morning of the 16th November I was on duty in the Westminster Bridge Road—Jarrett came up and showed me this half-crown, and pointed out the prisoner to me—I went up to him and asked if he had passed the half-crown at the coffee-stall—he said "Yes"—I said "Did you know it was bad?"—he said "No; I got it in change of half a sovereign at a fish-shop in the London Road, near the South London Music Hall; I had no more money on me at the time I passed the half-crown"—I searched him in the street after he was given into custody, and found four sixpences, two shillings, and eight pence halfpenny in bronze, good money—he gave the name of William Morton—he was taken to Southwark Police-court, remanded twice, and discharged a fortnight after the event, on 28th November.

WILLIAM RIDDINGTON . I am assistant to Mr. Vargnot, a grocer, Sekforde Street, Clerkenwell—on 8th December, about 1.30 p.m., the prisoner came in and asked for two ounces of 16d. butter—the price was 2d.—he gave this half-crown in payment—I tried it in my teeth, bent it, and told him it was bad—he said he had done a day's work the day before at the East India Docks and received the half-crown there and a sixpence—he said he was going to take the butter to the House of detention to a friend of his—Mr. Vargnot went out with the prisoner—I gave Mr. Vargnot the half-crown before he went out.

BENJAMIN VARGNOT . I was at His back of my grocer's shop in Sekforde

Street when the prisoner came in on the 8th December—I could see him through the window—my young man came in the parlour and showed me this half-crown, and I came into the shop, where I found the prisoner—I said "This is bad money"—he said "I got it from the East India Docks for work done there the previous day"—he said he was going to take the butter to the House of Detention—the butter was given to him, but no change, and I went with him to the House of Detention—on the way I met a policeman and told him he had passed a bad half-crown—another constable came and looked at it and said "It is bad enough"—the prisoner said he had bought the butter for a friend in the House of Detention—the constable went with him and said it was true he had a friend of his there, but he brought back the butter—I lost the butter—I gave the coin to the police.

JAMES BRIDGE (Policeman G. 243). I was on duty at the House of Detention, Clerkenwell, when Mr. Vargnot came with the prisoner—he said the prisoner had been into his shop and put down the half-crown for two ounces of butter—he gave me this half-crown; I have had it ever since—Mr. Vargnot also gave me another one which he took a week before—when Mr. Vargnot charged him he said "I know where I got it; I was at work at the East India Docks yesterday"—on the way to the station he said "I don't see why I should get into trouble over it; Tom Robertson, Tom Lister, and myself have come into the House of Detention to see a prisoner of the name of Lister, Lister's brother. When he was coming down the road Tom Robertson said 'We have forgot the butter,' and he gave me the half-crown and told me to go and get two ounces of butter"—he said "I was not at work on the previous day"—that was not in answer to a question—he said "Tom Robertson lives at Levy's lodging-house, 30, Mint Street, Borough"—I have made inquiries about Robertson—I do not know him—I went to 30, Mint Street; Levy's lodging-house is there—I found nothing on the prisoner.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. Another constable came no and broke one of the coins.

WILLIAM JOHN WEBSTER . These two half-crowns are both bad—they are from different moulds.

BENJAMIN VARGNOT (Re-examined). When I told the prisoner the coin was bad, he said it was not very likely he would pass a bad coin.

Prisoner's Statement before the Magistrate."When I gave the half-crown to that man he said it was bad. I told him I did-not think it was, it came from the docks. His master came out of the shop and said he would keep it. I told him there was a constable at the bottom of the street, and when we got down there I went up and explained it to the constable. The master of the shop gave him another bad half-crown with mine. They called another constable, who bent both of them. The constable asked what they were going to do, and the man said 'I will give him in charge.'"

The prisoner, in his defence, stated that when the man in the shop said the coin was bad he did not try it in his teeth. He asked him to come down the street that he might see the man who had given it him. The constable was at the bottom of the street, who must have seen the man who had given it to him.

GUILTY Nine Months' Hard labour.

7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-183
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

Related Material

183. JOSEPH MARWELL (35) and MARIA NORMAN (34) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.

MESSRS. CRAUFURD and. LLOYD Prosecuted;. MR. GEOGHEGAN defended Marwell.

MONIONIA HEWITT . My father keeps a tavern in Warner Place, Bethnal Green—about 4.45 on the evening of 11th December the two prisoners came to my bar with another man, and the female called for a pot of fourale—Marwell paid with this florin (produced)—I gave 1s. 8d. change, and they went out, Norman going last—they left about three-parts of the ale in the pot; they all drank out of the same—I put the coin on the bar-parlour table—there was no other florin there—about a quarter of an hour afterwards I and my mother examined the florin, and I went in search of the prisoners—I went along Plumber Road, and saw them there, the two men in front and the female behind—I saw them go into the Baxendale Arms, and spoke to a constable, and went in with him and showed him Marwell, and said "This man has given me a bad two-shilling piece"—the constable said "Did this man give you the bad two-shilling piece?"—I said "Yes, he did"—he did not say anything—I gave the florin to the constable—I came away—Norman and the other man were there too.

Cross-examined by. MR. GEOGHEGAN. The appearance of the florin was very good; I did not think it was bad—I have been behind the bar about 13 years, and take a great deal of money every day—Marwell was a little the worse for drink—they left half the beer, they all three had a drink—I could not say what the third man, who got away, was like; he was a short man—all the woman did was to drink out of the pot.

EDITH AMY LEE . I am barmaid at the Baxendale Arms—on the evening of 11th December, between 5 and 5.30, both the prisoners came into the bar with another man—Marwell called for drink, and paid with good money—he then handed me a florin, and asked me to change it—I told him it was bad, and returned it to him—the other man, who is not here, said to the prisoner "You have been done, old man"—while this was going on the two constables and Miss Hewitt came in, and I said to the police in the prisoner's presence "He has given me a bad two-shilling piece"—I had given it back to the prisoner—I didn't notice what state Marwell was in—I did not stay there while they drank the beer.

Cross-examined. The woman did and said nothing—I would not serve a drunken man—he did not appear the worse for drink to me—I did not notice him—I should not like to say he did not appear the worse, for drink—the other man was pitted with small-pox—he was a low, rough-looking man—Marwell did not say anything then.

JAMES GULLY (Policeman H R. 27). On 11th December, about 5 o'clock in the evening, I met Miss Hewitt, and in consequence of what she said I went with her to the Baxendale Arms—I saw the two prisoners and another man at the bar—Miss Hewitt pointed them out—I said to Marwell "You are accused of passing a bad two-shilling piece; have you any more?"—he said "No"—I saw his left hand was closed—I said "What have you in your hand?"—he said "It is my money"—I said "Let me see"—on opening his hand I found eight shillings, four sixpences, and a florin, and 9 1/2 d. in bronze—one of the shillings and the florin were counterfeit—Miss Lee said "That is the one that he has just asked me to change"—I searched him; I found nothing more on him, but on the ground close to his feet

I found two single shillings, one in front of his feet and the other six inches farther off; and on his left-hand side I found a packet of eight shillings all wrapped up separately in tissue paper—the tap-room is behind this bar, and there is a was out from the tap-room to the back—while I was searching Marwell the other man escaped that way—Stebbings handed me a packet which I saw him pick up; he was keeping the door to prevent any people coming in and going out—I was not examined at the police-court, I was ill.

Cross-examined. I believe the woman said to the other officer "I have nothing to do with it, I met these two gentlemen and they asked me to have something to drink"—I believe only 1 1/2 d. was found on her—Stebbings was standing about three yards from Marwell keeping the door, and could have heard me ask if he had any more bad money about him and his answer no—the prisoner did not say "You can search me"—the man that escaped said "You can search me"—they were all standing in a row when I came in—I should not think Marwell was perfectly sober, he certainly had been drinking.

JAMES STEBBINGS . I was in Bethnal Green on the evening of 11th December—I came to Hewitt as Gully came up, and I went with him to the Baxendale Arms—I was in plain clothes—inside I saw the two prisoners and another man, the men standing at the bar and the woman fitting down—Gully said to Marwell "This woman gives you in custody for passing a bad two-shilling piece"—I understood the prisoner to say he had no bad money—Gully said he should search him—a bad two-shilling-piece and a shilling were found in his left hand—Gully passed them to me—Gully picked a packet of bad money off the floor, and I picked up another one close to the prisoner's feet—I believe the prisoner said he knew nothing about them—I told Norman I should take her into custody for being concerned with them in passing counterfeit coin—she said she met the two men and they asked her to have something to drink—I think 1 1/2 d. was found on her—when Gully was talking to Marwell I was standing with my back against the door.

Cross-examined. Gully did not give evidence at the police-court—I told him I would give evidence, I did not tell him what I would say—I wrote down what the prisoner said in my note book—I had my note book at the police-court, I did not look at it—I have not got it now—when Gully said he would search Marwell, he said "You can search me"—I do not swear he said he had no more bad money about him, I did not mention it to the Magistrate—I was more interested in looking after the woman than after the man—Gully did not tell me the man had said he had no bad money—he gave a correct name and address—his master gave him a very respectable character—I don't bow the other man who bolted—Marwell had been drinking, but was not so drunk that he did not know what he was about.

By the. COURT. The third man had to pass Marwell to get away—I don't think I could have mistaken their voices.

WILLIAM JOHN WEBSTER . All these coins are bad—the two florins are from the same mould, and all the shillings are from one mould.

Witness for Marwell's Defence.

GEORGE WILLIAMS . I keep the Admiral Napier, Charles Street, Old Bethnal Green Road—on 11th December Marwell came into my house about 3 p.m. with another man—Norman was-not with them—they called

for ale; I declined to serve him, I thought he was intoxicated—the other man was not so drunk—he was short, with no teeth, and faintly pitted with small-pox—they had some soda-water at the bar, and went into the bagatelle room, which opens from the bar—the prisoner lay as if asleep, and I saw face other man put his hand in his pocket—I don't know what he put in or what he took out—I have known Mar well as a respectable man in employment, and as living with a friend of mine for three or four years.

Cross-examined. The other man was a stranger to me—they remained in the house about half an hour, and went out a little better than they came in.

Marwell received a good character.

Norman, in her defence, stated that she did not know either of the two men, whom she had met and gone with to have a drink.


7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-184
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceNo Punishment > sentence respited

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184. FREDERICK LARGE and GEORGE HERBERT SHIRLEY PLEADED GUILTY to unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.— Judgment respited.

FOURTH COURT.—Tuesday, January. 8th, 1884.

Before Robert Malcolm Kerr, Esq.

7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-185
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

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185. THOMAS FRAMP (24) , Burglary in the dwelling-house of John Bryant, and stealing a coat and other article. Second Count receiving the same.

MR. POYNTER prosecuted.

JOHN BRYANT . I am a dairyman, of 108, Elmore Street, Islington—on 20th December I was the last person up—I went to bed at 12.15; the doors were all closed and fastened—about 1.15 I was aroused by a man named Clark, a cab proprietor, who rents a stable of me—I went down-stairs and found a pane of glass broken in the shop window—the window was open wide enough to admit anybody—I missed a coat, 24 eggs, and some postage-stamps—the prisoner was outside and Mr. Clark was holding him.

GEORGE CLARK . I am a cab proprietor and live at 39, Elmore Street—I rent a stable of Mr. Bryant—at 1.15 on 21st December I took my horse into the yard and shut the gates after me; I heard a rattling noise at the gate and noticed a light in prosecutor's shop—I saw two men try to get out of the gates—the prisoner was one—I caught hold of him and the other got away—I said "What are you doing here?"—he said "I am doing nothing; I was passing here and I hoard the gates rattle, and a man says' Let me out,' and he gave me some eggs"—I said "I shall detain you until Mr. Bryant comes down"—Mr. Bryant came down and gave the prisoner in charge.

EDWIN HART (Policeman N. 595). I was called to Elmore Street by Mr. Bryant between 1 and 2 a.m. on the 21st December—I saw the prisoner there and he was given into my custody—he said "I went down the gateway to make water and I heard a man inside the gates making a noise; he said 'I want to get out, open the gate;' he had some eggs in a hat, and he said 'Here are some eggs for you; let me out;' I took the eggs, when the cabman came down the yard and caught hold of me"—at the station I found on him this bunch of keys—he says

they were given to him by the man—there were 24 eggs in his pockets—there were also a pencil case and knife, but no postage-stamps or coat—I examined the prosecutor's premises next day, and found this key broken in the desk in which the stamps were.

GUILTY .— Twelve Months Hard Labour.

7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-186
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

Related Material

186. WALTER ROSE (22) , Stealing a rug value 2l. 10s. Second Count. receiving the same.

MR. BEARD Prosecuted.

HUBERT DUCK (Detective T.) On 26th December, about 6.10, I saw the prisoner outside the King's Arms public-house at Brentford—he had a rug; I asked him where he got it from, and he said he had paid 5s. for it to a man at Chelsea—I asked him if he knew the man; he said he did not—I told him I was not satisfied and I should take him to the station—he said "No, you b——, you won't"—I looked round and saw a private person and told him to follow me, and the prisoner went quietly to the station.

WILLIAM HEATH . I keep the Brewery Tavern, Shepherd's Bush—on 26th December, between 5 and 6, I left my trap outside the John Bull, Gunnersbury—I went inside, and when I came out I missed this rug—I gave information to the police—the rug is worth about 50s.

GUILTY of receiving. — Twelve Months' Hard Labour.

7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-187
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

Related Material

187. JOHN RUSSELL (49) , Unlawfully and wilfully breaking a pane of glass value 25l.

MR. HICKS Prosecuted.

GEORGE SPILLER (Policeman. 501). On the morning of 18th December I was on duty at Lndgate Hill—about half-past 1 I heard a crash as if a window had been smashed—I saw the prisoner making away—he was 15 to 30 yards off—I ran after him and stopped him) and told him I should charge him with wilfully breaking the window—he was not five yards off when I first saw him—there was no one else in the street—I took him to the station and charged him—I went to the window, and found this large stone—there are no stones in the road like this.

THOMAS HENRY BROOKE HITCHING . I am a baby carriage manufacturer at No. 19, Ludgate Hill—on 17th December I left my plate-glass window intact—on the morning of the 18th my attention was called to it by the constable; it was broken—the size of it is 130 by about 80, and the value of it was from 15l. to 25l.


7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-188
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

Related Material

188. LOUISA THOMAS (33) , Stealing 2l. 10s. from the person of George Larman.

MR. HICKS Prosecuted.

GEORGE LARMAN . I am a labourer, living at 5, Crescent Avenue, Caledonian Road—between half-past 11 and 12 o'clock on 17th December I was at the Star and Garter public-house—I saw the prisoner there—she said "Will you have a drink?"I did, and I treated her—about half-past 12 I left the public-house with her—I was sober, but she was half intoxicated—I went into one of the by-streets with her and gave her a shilling, which I took out of my trousers pocket: she saw me do it—I found her pulling my trousers about, but I did not

feel her put her hand in my pocket—two or three minutes after she left—afterwards I missed the sum of 2l. 10s.—I saw a constable, and told him about it—next day I saw her in the Caledonian Road, and I asked her to give me my money back; she said she never had it—I called a constable and gave her into custody—she then said she would give me the money back—I had not spoken to anybody between the time she left me and the time I missed my money.

By the. COURT. I got this money out of my club—I did not get it before ten minutes past 11, and I went straight to the public-house—I counted it just before I went into the public-house—there were no other woolen there—there were two sovereigns and a half-sovereign, and there was 14s. 6d. left.

GEORGE TAYLOR (Policeman G. 216). I was called by the prosecutor to take the prisoner into custody—he said he should charge her with stealing 2l. 10s. from his pocket—she said "I do not know anything about it, I have just come out to get my husband's dinner.

Prisoner's Defence. All I know is he gave me a shilling, and he paid for five half-quarterns of rum, and he went out more than twice with some young woman round the corner. He wanted me to go with him and I would not go.


7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-189
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour; Imprisonment > hard labour

Related Material

189. LOUISA THOMAS (33) was again indicted, with ANNIE RYAN (33) , Feloniously conspiring to obstruct, pervert, and defeat the course of public justice.

MR. HICKS Prosecuted.

ROBERT WRIGHT (Policeman G. 90). I am assistant jailer at Clerkenwell Police-court—on the 18th December Annie Ryan was convicted of drunkenness at that Court and fined 2s. 6d., or in default two days'—she had no money and was put in the cells—afterwards a prisoner named Harris was put in, and after that Louisa Thomas, who was charged with felony and committed for trial—some time after they had all three been together, Harris called to me and said she wished to pay her fine—she gave me a sovereign and I gave her 15s. change and let her out, and called to Ryan to come out—a woman came out who to all appearance was Ryan—she had on the same hat and cloak that Ryan wore in the morning—I shut the door and left, as I thought, Louisa Thomas in the cell—when the van came to take the prisoners I went to the cell and found Annie Ryan there instead of Louisa Thomas—she was wearing Thomas's cloak and hat—I told Ryan she had changed her clothes with Thomas—she said she had not—Thomas was afterwards brought back to the station, when Ryan made the reply that "Exchange was no robbery"—that was when they were both charged before the inspector.

GEORGE TAYLOR (Policeman G. 216). On the 18th December I had Thomas in custody for felony—she was committed for trial—she was wearing a hat, cloak, and scarf—next day I found Ryan wearing that cloak and scarf, and heard that Thomas had escaped—I went in search for her in the Talbot public-house, Caledonian Road—I told her I should take her into custody—she said she was only fined half-a-crown, which she paid—I told her she had been committed for trial, and she said she had not—she was wearing a new hat, and I asked her where he got it from—she said, "I bought it; although I was searched at the station on the previous charge they did not get all the money I had."

Ryan' a Defence. Thomas asked me if I would exchange my cloak, and

I felt there was no harm in it. She went out with the prisoner Harris, and I was left in the cell. They said they would come back and bring me my fine, but they never came back.


THOMAS— Four Months Hard Labour. RYAN— One Month's Hard Labour.

7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-190
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

Related Material

190. HENRY WILSON (17) , Stealing from William John Shutter a watch and piece of gold chain.

MR. HICKS Prosecuted.

WILLIAM JOHN SHOTTER . I live at 24, Coborn Road, Bow—I am engaged in the liquidation of a company of which I have been the manager—about a quarter to 7 on 24th December I was walking through Leadenhall Street—near Aldgate end three or four persons came round me and pressed me into a doorway—I believe the prisoner was one of them, but I do not positively swear to him—they held my arms down, and one of them twisted his legs round me and I was powerless—they forced my coat open and took my watch and part of the chain—this is the remains of the chain—I called out, "They have got my watch"—two or three went in pursuit, and the prisoner was brought back.

JOHN FOWLER . On the 24th December, about a quarter to 7, I was in Leadenhall Street—I saw three men scuffling with the prosecutor; one was holding his hands at the back, and two were in front of him—my wife was with me, and she called out, "They have got his watch"—two of the men ran towards Cornhill, and one went down Creed Lane—the prisoner was one of the men in front of the prosecutor; he had got hold of him about his waistcoat pockets—I ran after him and saw him caught—I never lost sight of him from the time he started from the prosecutor until he was brought back.

JOHN MAGUIRE (Policeman E. 404). About 6.45 on 24th December I was in Leadenhall Street in plain clothes and off duty—I heard a cry of "Stop thief!"and saw the prisoner and two others running in the direction of Cornhill—I went after him—I saw last witness dose by me—I was within three yards of prisoner the entire distance, and never lost sight of him—I caught him—he said "What are you stopping me for?"—I said "I am a police-officer, and I shall take you in custody for a robbery I believe you have committed in Leadenhall Street"—he said "I have not been in Leadenhall Street, and if you don't bleeding well let me go I will give you a Christmas box"—I brought him back to the prosecutor and he said "I believe that is one of the men"—afterwards Fowler came up and said "That is one of the men"—I searched the prisoner and found silver to the amount of 19s. 6d. and some bronze.

GUILTY .— Twelve Months' Hard labour.

7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-191
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

Related Material

191. WILLIAM MASON (23) , Robbery with violence, with others, on Edward Sheridan, and stealing the sum of 1 1/2 d.

MR. HICKS Prosecuted.

EDWARD SHERIDAN . I live at 10, Beaumont Square, Mile End—between 12 and 1 o'clock on Sunday morning, 26th November, I was in the Mile End Road—I was seized behind by two men, and one endeavoured to strike me in the lower part of my body—they pulled out my pocket and ran away—my money was in an interior place, so they only got 1 1/2 d.—I

pursued them—a sergeant of police got between me and them and I gave up the chase—afterwards I saw the prisoner in custody of two policemen.

CALEB CARTER (Police Sergeant T. 24). On the morning of 26th December I was in the Mile End Road—I saw the prisoner and two other men running across the road, pursued by the prosecutor—I took up the chase and saw the prisoner stopped by another constable.

JOHN ORAM (Policeman H. 387). I was on duty in the Mile End Road on the morning of 26th December—I saw three men running, followed by Sergeant Carter and Mr. Sheridan—I stopped the prisoner and he was given in custody for robbing the prosecutor.

Prisoner's Defence. I heard the cry of "Stop thief!"and ran towards where it came from, and on going down Sydney Street the constable caught hold of me. I said that I was not the one.


The prisoner. PLEADED GUILTY to having been convicted of felony at the Sessions House, Clerkenwell, on 7th December. 1874.— Eight Month's Hard Labour.

7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-192
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour; Imprisonment > penal servitude

Related Material

192. EDWARD CASTLE (30) and JOHN DALEY (25) , Burglary in the dwelling-house of Frederick Green.

MR. HICKS Prosecuted.

EDWARD HURST (Policeman X. 113). At half-past 2 a.m. on 8th December I was on duty in the Portobello Road, opposite the Blenheim Arms public-house—I heard a noise like the shutting of a door—I saw these two men come up from the cellar-flap of the public-house—I went after Daley, but he got away—I came back and arrested Castle—he is lame, and has one crutch—I took him to the station, and then went back to the prosecutor's and rang him up—we found the cellar-flap had been forced from the outside, and there were the marks of a chisel—the flap had been fastened from the inside, but the bolts had been torn from the wood work—there was a barrel in the cellar about four feet high, on which there were foot marks—Daley was apprehended on the Sunday—he was placed amongst several others at the police-station, and I identified him at once as being the man who was with Castle—Castle's clothes were covered with saw-dust and dirt similar to that in the cellar—I saw Daley's face when he was fire or six yards away from me.

FREDERICK GREEN . I am landlord of the Blenheim Arms—on the morning of 8th December I went to bed about 1 o'clock—I saw the doors bolted—the cellar-flap is fastened on the inside by two bolts—that was last fastened on the previous Monday—I was aroused by the constable, and went downstairs—I found the cellar-flap partly open, and the bolts had been forced, and there was a mark outside as if done with a chisel—there were footmarks, and the sawdust below had been disturbed—I do not know the prisoners, and I do not miss anything.

DAVID GUNN (Policeman X. 247). On Sunday night, 9th December, I was on duty at the corner of Bangor Street—I saw Daley there, and I said "Is your name Brewer?"—"No," he said, "my name is Daley"—I told him I should take him into custody for being concerned with a man named Castle in breaking into a beerhouse in Kensington Park Road—he said "I am innocent of this job this time; I was in bed at the time"—I took him to the station, where he was placed with others, and identified by Hurst.

GEORGE NOBLE (Policeman X. 601). I know both prisoners byname

and by sight—on 8th December I was on duty in Clarendon Eoad, when I saw them walking in the direction of Belgrave Crescent—they were together—it was about 1 in the morning.

Witness for the Defence of Daisy.

MARGARET BECK . Daley was in my house on the Friday night from 7 to 10 o'clock—he had his tea and supper with me—he came the next day and had his breakfast and his tea and supper, and the same on Sunday—that is all I know.

DAVID GUNN (Policeman X. 247) (Recalled by Daley). I have made inquiries at Mr. Norris's lodging-house—he says your money was paid for your lodging, but that you were not in bed that night.


CASTLE PLEADED GUILTY to having been convicted of felony on the 4th March. 1878, and Daley to having been convicted at this Court on 20th October. 1879.CASTLE— Twelve Months' Hard Labour. DALEY**— Five Years' Penal Servitude.

7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-193
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude; Imprisonment > hard labour

Related Material

193. JOHN WATTS (18) and RICHARD LEE (23) , Stealing 5s. the moneys of Joseph Dale.

MR. HICKS Prosecuted.

HENRY EDNEY . I help Mr. Dale, a corn merchant of 159, High Street, Brentford—on the 21st December Lee came into the shop—I was alone—Mr. Dale was haying his dinner—Lee asked for Mr. Dale—I told him he was having his dinner—then he asked me for a box for a dog's kennel—I said I had not got one—then he asked if I had change for a penny, and I opened the till to get it—I could not say how much money there was in it—shillings and sixpences both—I gave Lee the two half-pennies for the penny and he went away, and then Watts came in and asked how much the sacks outside were—I said Mr. Dale did not sell them—he said "Never mind, I will call again"—I looked in the till directly after Mr. Pennington came in, and found there was only six-pence in the till in silver—whilst I was talking to Lee I had not my eye on the till all the time—I never looked at it.

By the. COURT. Lee was the other side of the counter when I gave him the change—there were several shillings in the till when I shut it—nobody had been in besides the two prisoners before Mr. Pennington came in.

THOMAS PENNINGTON . I reside at 162, High Street, Brentford, next door but one to the prosecutor's shop—on the 21st December I was in my shop, and I saw both prisoners looking in—I know them by sight—it was about 1.30—I watched them—Watts went towards Mr. Dale's shop; Lee stood at my window a few minutes and then went up that way—I saw Watts holding out a sack, and while he was doing that Lee came out of the shop—he put the sack down and walked over the bridge—I spoke to last witness, and he looked in the till and found the money gone—the prisoners' were standing in front of our shops about a quarter of an hour or 20 minutes.

JOSEPH DALE . I am a corn merchant, at 160, High Street, Brentford—I received some information from the lad Edneyy, and I followed the prisoners—I found Lee in Mr. Watkins's shop, and I stopped him—there was 4s. 11d. short in my till.

CHARLES BROOKS (Police Sergeant T. 3). On the 31st December I was on duty in Brentford—about 10 minutes to 2 o'clock I was called to Mr.

Watkins's shop—the prosecutor gave Lee into my custody—I took him to the station and searched him, and found on him 3s. in silver, 13d. in bronze, and a lace.

GEORGE HARVEY (Policeman). On 27th December I took Watts into custody in Long Lane, Bermondsey—I told him the charge, and he said "I know nothing about it."


LEE PLEADED GUILTY to having been convicted of felony on 11th September. 1882, at this Court, and Watts to having been convicted at South-wark on 3rd May. 1880. LEE— Five Years' Penal Servitude.

WATTS— Eighteen Months' Hard Labour.

7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-194
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceNo Punishment > sentence respited

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194. RACHEL FARRIES (19) PLEADED GUILTY to unlawfully concealing the birth of her child.— Judgment respited.

7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-195
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SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

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195. ROBERT DAVIES (18) to stealing a coat and other goods, and money to the amount of 4l. 10s. 6d., belonging to William Rainbow.— Twelve Months' Hard Labour. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-196
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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196. ARTHUR JAMES RICHARD WHEELER (28) to marrying Betsey Jane Harness, his wife being then alive.— Twenty Days Imprisonment. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-197
VerdictsGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentencesImprisonment > hard labour

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197. CHARLES WILLIAMS (29) to a burglary in the dwelling-house of Edward Attwood; also to a burglary in the dwelling-house of William Lambert Watson.— Twelve Months' Hard Labour [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.] And

7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-198
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

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198. GEORGE WESTERN (38) to feloniously forging and uttering an order for the payment of 7l. 10s., and uttering the same knowing it to be forged.— Twelve Months' Hard Labour. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

OLD COURT.—Wednesday, January. 9th, 1884.

Before Mr. Justice Hawkins.

7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-199
VerdictsGuilty > pleaded guilty; Not Guilty > no evidence

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199. THOMAS EDWARDS (30) PLEADED GUILTY to a common assault upon John Thomas Brooks.

There was another indictment against the prisoner for feloniously shooting at the same person, with intent to murder, and with intent to do grieve bodily harm, upon which. MR. GRIFFITHS, for the prosecution, offered no evidence. — One Month without Hard Labour.

7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-200
VerdictGuilty > pleaded part guilty
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

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200. EDWIN DRAPER (25) was indicted for feloniously wounding, with intent to murder and to do grievous bodily harm.

The prisoner stating, in the hearing of the Jury, that he desired to.

PLEAD GUILTY to unlawfully wounding, the Jury found that verdict, and Mr. Ribton, for the prosecution, offered no evidence as to the felony. — Eighteen Months Hard Labour.

7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-201
VerdictGuilty > lesser offence
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude; Imprisonment > penal servitude

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201. JOHN WEBB (32) and JAMES WILLOUGHBY (22) , Feloniously wounding William John Gilder, with intent to murder. Other Counts, with intent to do grievous bodily harm.


WILLIAM LISK . I live at 62, London Street, Copenhagen Street, Islington—I keep fowls—on Sunday night, 16th December. I locked up my fowl house at 10 o'clock—I had 12 fowls and a duck in the back yard—they were quite safe at 10 o'clock—I was awoke about 11.30 or 11.40 by my lodger Gilder rushing into my room saying that he had been nearly murdered by two men; I got up and sent him to the hospital with

my son—I then went to examine my fowls; I found eight of them and the duck dead in the yard; they were close to the hole in the yard ready to be pushed through on to the towing path, and two were lying on the towing path in a bag—they cost me 25s.—I know Webb by sight; he is a bird fancier and poultry dealer—I had not seen him that day; he lived in Somers Town, and I have seen him in the Cattle Market with live poultry.

WILLIAM JOHN GILDER . I lodge at Lisk's house and am a house painter—at 11.30 on Sunday night, 16th December, I was going home to Mr. Lisk's house—I got over the wall from Bath Place, going on to the towing path—I walked along the towing path till I came to the wall of where I lodge—I noticed the hole in the wall had been enlarged, large enough to admit a man's body—Willoughby was standing close by the hole on the towing path—I said "What do you want? What are you doing there?"—he said "What is that to do with you?"—I said "I live there"—he said "Oh"—Webb came out from the yard through the hole on to the towing path with a crowbar in his hand—he did not speak, but lifted it up, and held it at the back of his head—I said "Don't hit me"—he brought it down on my head, and they both assailed me—I received four blows on my head; the wounds are getting better now—I was knocked down with the first blow, and then they repeated it three times—I put up my hand to protect my head, and received seven or eight blows on my hand—one of the leaders has gone from my finger—I cannot bend it straight now—I screamed out "Murder!" and "Police!"and anything I could think of—they put their hands over my mouth to prevent me, and there are several scratches where they took the skin off my face—then one of them said "Let's throw him" in—the canal runs alongside—I said "Don't throw me in"—I was near the side of the water—one caught hold of me, and I struggled, and he went in head first—I could not tell which—the other let go, went, to his friend's assistance, and I went the reverse way to Bath Place, and kept on calling out, and when they got out they came towards Bath Place to the wall which I had previously got over—I got over the wall into my master's yard—I aroused Mr. Lisk—I was covered with mud and blood from my head to my waist—my things down here were all spoilt—Mr. Lisk's son took me to the Great Northern Hospital—I had seen Webb before the night of the occurrence on three or four occasions selling birds in Somers Town—I went to the police-station on the Wednesday after the Sunday to identify the man—I saw seven or eight persons, and picked Webb out without the least hesitation as the man who had assaulted me—on the night of 27th December I went to Caledonian Road Station and saw seven or eight men standing together—I picked out Willoughby as the other who had assaulted me—I had no hesitation in the least in picking him out—I had not seen him before—I swear they, are the men—I had given descriptions of both the prisoners at the Great Northern Hospital on the night of the occurrence.

Cross-examined by Webb. When I first saw you, you came through the hole out of the yard with the crowbar—you did not speak—it was a bright night, it had been raining a little and the moon came out—I was not stunned by the first blow, it crippled me—there was blood inside my hat—you and the other man took hold of me to throw me into the canal.

WILLIAM DANIEL LISK . I am William Lisk's son, of 22, London Street—I was in in bed at 11.30 on this Sunday night—Gilder covered with blood and mud came into the house—I took him to the Great Northern Hospital, and then fetched the police and examined the back premises—I found eight dead birds in the yard and two in the bag—the noble in the wall had been made large enough for a man to get through—outside I found this poker on the bank of the canal, and about a yard from the hole on the towing path—next morning at a quarter-past 7 I found this crowbar about twelve feet from the hole on the bank—the poker belongs to us, and had been taken out of the house the night before—it had been placed to block up the hole I believe.

By the Jury. It was raining that night—I cannot say whether there was any moon.

SARAH ANN COUCHMAN . I live at 59, London Street, Islington, opposite to Mr. Lisk—I have known Webb about six years in the names of Wainwright and Poacher, he is a bird seller—on Sunday, the 16th of December, about ten minutes to 4 p.m., I went on to the wall of the towing path to look for my boy—standing outside Mr. Lisk's wall, talking together, I saw Webb and the other man to the best of my belief, his back was towards me—I hadn't known that man before—they were a yard, or not more than two yards, from the hole in the wall—I called my boy, Webb looked up to me, he didn't speak to me—I went home and heard no more till twenty minutes to 12 at night; I was sitting up to wake my husband to go to his work, he was in bed; I heard cries of "Murder" about eight times coming from the canal bank—I ran down stairs and called my husband's attention to it, and he looked out of window after I came upstairs again—Mrs. Lisk came to her front door and spoke to me, and after that I saw Gilder and Lisk's son go to the hospital and come back again—I have never had a quarrel with Webb.

Cross-examined by Webb. I didn't ask you on the Monday before this happened for the girl Butler—about a month before, when my husband bought a bird of you, I said, "Do you know a girl of the name of Butler?"—she is my brother's girl, and he is in prison through you—I remember when my brother was locked up with you.

FRANCIS ALEXANDER STOKES . I am house surgeon of the Greet Northern Hospital—at 12.30 on Monday morning Gilder came to the hospital, and my assistant dressed his wounds—he was suffering from three scalp-wounds bleeding freely, and several lacerated wounds on his left hand—he had lost a fair amount of blood—this crowbar might have inflicted such injuries as he received.

Cross-examined by Webb. He might have been hit by the end of that iron—I do not think that would have killed him if he had been hit three or four times, I think his hat and his hands were in the way; the end would have cut his hat.

CHARLES BERRY (Police Sergeant F). On the night of 19th December I went with Sergeant Keen and took Webb into custody—he was outside the Nottingham Arms public-house, Osculation Street, Somers Town—I said "We are police-officers, Poacher," that was the name I knew him by, "we are going to take you in custody for stealing some fowls from 62, London Street last Sunday night"—he said, "All right, sir, I will go"—as we were going to the station he said, "Did you say it was Thursday night?"—! said "No"—he said, "If it had been

Thursday I could have proved where I was, but on Sunday night I was in bed by half-past 11"—he said that he was at the Nottingham Anns public-house during the evening, and he was in bed by half-past 11—at the station he was put with seven others; Gilder was brought in by Inspector Newman and pointed to him—I said, "Touch the man you mean"—he went forward and touched Webb on his shoulder—Webb was charged—he said, "Mrs. Phillips has got this up for me"—Keen arrested Willoughby—after Webb was taken before the Magistrate he was remanded until the 22nd—I went to his cell at his request, and he asked me if I could get his witnesses, who could prove that he was not there at the time of the occurrence—I said, "Yes, if you will give me their names"—he said, "I left the Nottingham Arms public-house about closing time, and I came home with Tom Moore and the deputy"—I said, "Was there any one else there"—he said, "Yes, there were several men, but I don't know their names"—at his request I got Tom Moore and the deputy, whom I found was Walsh, to attend before the Magistrate to give evidence for him on the next remand—Walsh was the deputy of a common lodging-house, 180, Caledonian Road.

MICHAEL KEEN (Police Sergeant Y). At 8 o'clock on the night of 27th December I was with Berry in Somers Town, and arrested Willoughby in Phoenix Street—I told him I was a police officer, and should take him into custody for being concerned with another person named John Webb in committing an assault on one Gilder at London Street—he said "I will go with you, governor"—at the station he was placed with nine others, and Gilder picked him out—he said "You have made a mistake."

Cross-examined by Willoughby. I should say it was 600 yards from where you were taken to the towing-path to where this was done.

By the. JURY. On the 16th it was a clear kind of night, it had not been raining to my knowledge—the moon wasn't out at the time—I don't know when it came out.

Cross-examined by Webb. I don't know how long it would take to dig out what they say is a man hole.

By Willoughby. I did not say when I apprehended you "You are the one that is always alone with Poacher in the bird room, and birdcatching with him. Where is the cap and the long coat you wear?"

The Prisoners' Statements before the Magistrate. Webb says:."I wish to call witnesses who were with me at the time. It was 20 minutes past 11 before I left the beerhouse. I don't know what they call a man hole. Does it stand to reason that two of us had got to kill all the fowls in 25 minutes?"Willoughby says:."I know nothing about it."

Witnesses for Webb.

HENRY SMITH . I live at 4, Bridgwater Street, and am a painter—I have known Webb—on 16th December I was in his company the early part of the evening till 20 minutes past 11—he left me in Ossulston Street to go home.

Cross-examined. I first joined him on the Sunday between 7 and 8 at the Nottingham Arms, and we remained there till 11 o'clock, when the house closed—we came outside, and stood talking till 20 minutes past 11—I have known Willoughby by his being round the neighbourhood about sixteen years—he has had no residence lately since he lost his father—I have known Webb nearly twenty years alto by his being round the neighbourhood

—I have never seen Webb and Willoughby together—I have seen them pass the time of day, but never associate together—I do not know where Webb was at 4.30 on that afternoon except from what the deputy of the lodging-house told me.

HENRY JACKSON . I am a labourer, and live at 91, Charlton Street, Somers Town—on Sunday three weeks I was in John Webb's company from 7 o'clock till 20 minutes past 11 in Ossulston Street, Somers Town—I first saw him in the Nottingham Arms, and after we were turned out we stood talking in the street till 20 minutes past 11—it might have been 25 minutes past, or a quarter past—it only took me a few minutes to get home, and it was 25 minutes when I got home by the clock.

Cross-examined. Nobody was with me when I met him at the Nottingham Arms—Alf Burrows was with him—Smith was with us outside when the house closed—I cannot say what time he came in, I was upstairs—when we parted company I left first, and left Smith and the prisoner together—I know the other prisoner, but as for John Webb having company with him, I never saw him speak to him—I am quite sure I have never been convicted—I have not been convicted for stealing anything—about four or five years ago I was tried at Clerkenwell for shoving people off the footpath and using abusive language, and acquitted.

By the. COURT. I was upstairs when Smith came in—Webb was up-stairs I should think pretty nigh all night—we were in the bird room—there were a good many others there—Alf Burrows was there—Smith came upstairs about 8.30—I did not see him before—Webb was in my company nearly the whole of the time; I couldn't say if he was the whole of the time.

WILLIAM NYE . I am a labourer, and live at 77, Ossulston Street, Euston Road—last Sunday three weeks I was in Webb's company at the Nottingham Arms from 7 to 11 o'clock—during that time the deputy and Tom Moore came in—I was in company with them till we were turned out of the beershop, and then we took some beer with us outside in a can—I don't know the deputy's name—Jackson, Smith, Burrows, and a lot more were with us there all drinking—I left them all talking at 11.15 outside the door.

Cross-examined. I first saw Smith between 7 and 8 o'clock sitting down listening' to a bird match—I saw Jackson about 6.30 in the bar—he went up into the room about 8 o'clock—I went up between 7 and 8 o'clock—the bird room upstairs is where they all keep birds and try their singing—the man that keeps the room sometimes gives a bit of meat away for the bird that sings best—I have known Willoughby about seven or eight years about Somers Town—I have known Webb about Somers Town and see him nearly every day—I have never seen them together.

TOM MOORE . I am a general dealer and live at 180, Caledonian Road—on Sunday three weeks I and Mr. Walsh went down to a beerhouse about 7.30 and saw Poacher or Webb in front of the bar, and stopped drinking with him till the house closed at 11 o'clock—I and Walsh then went home directly.

Cross-examined. The earliest time I was in Webb's company was 7.30—I and Walsh stopped in front of the bar, and Webb came backwards and forwards—he lodged in the same house, 180, Caledonian Road, with me—Walsh is the deputy of it—I don't know if Webb slept there that night; he did not go home with me—he did not flay why he was not

coming home; I did not ask him—I left him outside the house talking; I don't know who to—I do not know Willoughby at all, I have never seen him before that I know of.

WILLIAM WALSH . I live at 180, Caledonian Road—on Sunday evening, about three Sundays ago, I went to buy two birds of Mr. Phillips, and then went towards Maiden Lane into a beerhouse (I don't know the name of the house nor the street; I am a stranger in the place) where Poacher was—it was about 7.55; I stopped to about five minutes before shutting up time, and then went home with my friend Moore.

Cross-examined. I went to bed about 2.30—I can't say if Webb slept at my lodging-house that Sunday night—I told Berry that Webb did not sleep there that night—I did not see Webb after 11 o'clock that night—the night deputy told me he did not sleep there.

Re-examined. I bought the birds off Mr. Phillips, of Bemerton Street—he is not here—you bought a bird off me before 6 o'clock—I didn't ask the master of the beershop for a quart pot to take beer home in—I came down to the house to hear my bird—I left two birds behind the bar—I didn't knock them on the floor.

Witnesses for Willoughby.

JOHN WILLOUGHBY . I am the prisoner's brother—I live at 8, Dyot Street—on Sunday, 16th December, at 11 o'clock, I and my brother left the Marquis of Hastings public-house, Ossulston Street—we went home to Dyot Street and got there at 11.20—I paid his lodging to Miss Till, and he went to bed about 11.25 or 11.30, and I saw no more of him till next morning—I produce a character from his master—a witness outside can prove he went to bed about 11.30, when my brother was in bed.

Cross-examined. Frederick Wheeler is the man outside—he was not called before the Magistrate—the Marquis of Hastings is in Ossulston Street, about five minutes' easy walk from the Nottingham Arms—I know Webb by sight, but not as an old pal of my brother's—I got this character last Friday week—I gave Mr. Wilson the name of James Willoughby—if he has made it out for the bearer he has made a mistake I suppose.

FREDERICK WHEELER . I have lived at 8, Dyot Street about eight months—three weeks ago on Sunday last I saw Willoughby in bed there at 11.35, and again on the Monday morning at 7.45—I left him by the bedside dressing himself—I slept in the next bed but one to him—I bade him good night as I left the room.

Cross-examined. I only knew him as sleeping there about three weeks or a month before—I had slept eight months in the same room—his brother asked me last Friday week if his brother had not been sleeping in the same room with me, and he told me about the affair that he was locked up for—I mentioned the 16th, and he said he didn't know what the date was, and I said it must have been on the 16th—he did not say it must have been on the night of the 16th he was sleeping in the room with me—neither of us mentioned the 16th at that time—I had no conversation with the brother till last Friday week—I did not go to the police-court—there is a night and day deputy at Dyot Street—I don't know if the night deputy would know the men who slept there—I can't say if the deputy would have seen him before the 19th—he calls those men who pay him—the landlord takes the money downstairs on the first floor as you go in—he is not here.

Webb, in his defence, contended that he could not have dug out the hole and killed 12 fowls and a duck in the time, as one witness (prosecutor) had said he was at home at 20 minutes to 12, and another witness said he was at the hospital at 20 minutes to 12.

Willoughby said:. I am an innocent of the charge that I am charged with.

GUILTY of wounding with intent to do grievous bodily harm. WEBB then PLEADED GUILTY to a conviction of felony in February, 1879, in the name of George John Wainwright. WEBB— Ten Years' Penal Servitude.

WILLOUGHBY— Eight Years' Penal Servitude.

There was another indictment against the prisoners for stealing the fowls.

NEW COURT.—Wednesday, January. 9th, 1884.

Before Mr. Recorder.

7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-202
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceNo Punishment > sentence respited

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7th January 1884
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7th January 1884
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204. HORACE FITZHUGH IRVING (34) to uttering only, upon seven indictments for feloniously forging and uttering orders for the delivery of books, with intent to defraud the Army and Navy Co-operative Stores.— Six Months' Hard Labour. [Pleaded part guilty: See original trial image.]

7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-205
VerdictsNot Guilty > no evidence

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205. GEORGE ROBERT PILGRIM was again indicted for feloniously forging and uttering a warrant; also for forging and uttering a transfer of an interest in a certain body corporate, with intent to defraud, upon which. MR. AMPHLETT, Q.C., offered no evidence.


7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-206
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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206. GEORGE LUND (49) , Embezzling the sums of 4l. 15s., 10l., and 10l.10s., and a security value 25l., of the North Oregon Mining Company, his masters.

MESSRS. BESLEY and. A. METCALFE Prosecuted;. MR. H. AVORY Defended. After hearing. MR. BESLEY'S opening speech and part of the accountant's evidence, the Jury stated that they had agreed, and stopped the case.


7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-207
VerdictsNot Guilty > no evidence

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207. EBENEZER WALKER HENRY (52) , Feloniously receiving certain valuable securities well knowing them to be stolen; also unlawfully applying to his own use certain money which he had received as a trustee, upon both which indictments. MR. AMPHLETT, Q.C., offered no evidence.


THIRD COURT.—Wednesday, January. 9th, 1884.

Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-208
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

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208. JEREMIAH MURPHY (18) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.


THOMAS RICE . I am a costermonger, of 25, Purfleet Street, Commercial

Road—at 12 o'clock on Saturday night, 8th December, I was at the corner of Backchurch Lane with my barrow, selling whelks and muscles—the prisoner came and purchased a pennyworth and tendered half-a-crown—I said "This is no good with me, old chap"—he took it up and began to abuse me, and ran away—I next saw him at the station and identified him.

LOUIS VANDERBURGH . I am a cigar maker at Emery Place, St. George's Street—the prisoner came to my stall on the other side of Whitechapel Church on the 4th December, about 8 or 9—he bought something that came to 4d. and gave me half-a-crown—I gave him 2s. 2d. change and put the coin in my pocket—afterwards I discovered it was bad, broke it in my teeth into four pieces, and threw them down the sink—on the 8th December I saw the prisoner running in the Commercial Road, he ran into my arms, I threw him down and fell on the top of him—I saw a constable behind him—he came up and arrested him—whilst walking along the Commercial Road I saw the prisoner put his hand into his trousers pocket and take out a coin and throw it into the street—when I told the inspector at the station I recognised the prisoner as having given me a bad half-crown, he said "What did I throw it over the house for?"

JOHN BAGSHOT (Policeman H. 317). On Saturday, the 8th December, Vanderburgh gave me information in consequence of which I took the prisoner into custody—I saw him strike a man in the face, I followed, he was stopped—I told him the charge—he said "Not me, sir, I have no bad money about me"—he put his hand into his breast pocket and I took his hand out and put mine in, and found there 6 1/2 d.—whilst I was doing that the prisoner put his hand into his right hand trousers pocket and drew out a half-crown and threw it in the street—I picked it up and produce it—before I picked it up the prisoner struggled very hard and stamped on it, and on my finger also; it has been very bad since, there is the mark now.

WILLIAM JOHN WEBSTER . This is a bad half-crown.

The Prisoner's Defence. I did not know it was a bad one I gave to Vanderburgh. I am guilty with regard to Rice.

GUILTY .— Nine Months' Hard Labour.

7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-209
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

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209. THOMAS WHITE (22) , Unlawfully having counterfeit coin in his possession, with intent to utter.

MESSRS. LLOYD and. BAYLISS Prosecuted.

SUSANNAH PURCHASE . I live at 41, Commercial Road, St. George's, where I and my husband, George Purchase, keep a dairy shop—on the 22nd December, at half-past 11 p.m., I was behind the counter, a man came in and asked for a glass of milk and tendered this bad half-crown—I bent it with a weight—the man left the shop after some conversation saying he was very sorry—my little daughter came in directly afterwards, and I sent her after the man—the prisoner was then brought in—he said to me "I am the man who gave you the bad money, ain't I?"—I said "No, you are not the man"—my daughter said "He is not the man, but he was in company with the man, and I followed him for twenty minutes and saw him in company with the man who gave you the bad half-crown"—I had pointed out the man who came in to my daughter.

FANNY PURCHASE . I live with my mother—on the 22nd December, about half-past 11, I came into our shop, and my mother pointed out to me somebody who went across the road and joined the prisoner, who was standing on the opposite side of the road—they spoke together—I followed them and spoke to a constable, and he followed them and brought the prisoner back to the shop.

JOSEPH POOLE (Policeman H. 403). The last witness spoke to me, and in consequence of what she said I took the prisoner into custody, and charged him with passing a bad half-crown—he said "You have made a mistake"—I saw another man with him, he went away—I took him to the shop—Mrs. Purchase said "This is not the man that tendered the half-crown"—while there another constable came in and spoke to me, and while speaking to me the prisoner put his hand in his pocket and drew out something and was going to throw it away, I caught him and took these five bad half-crowns from him—I took him to the station with the assistance of another constable, he struggled on the way—when the charge was read over to him he said "That is wrong," the other man has not been seen since—this is all the paper I found with the five half-crowns, in the struggle it was torn to pieces.

JOSEPH SOPER (Policeman H. 383). I was with the last witness, what he has said is correct—in the morning when I was taking the prisoner from the cell to the police-station, he said (I took it down in writing at time) "I got the bad money from a man down at the Millwall Docks, I don't know his name, I only know him by sight"—when the prisoner was taken I followed him up and he was taken into the shop—I said "Have you anything about you?"—he put his hand into his right hand coat pocket and attempted to throw away something in paper out of the shop door—Poole took his hand and they struggled for about five minutes before Poole got possession of it—from what I saw I believe the coins were wrapped up separately in paper—I could not say—the paper got torn.

WILLIAM JOHN WEBSTER . These coins are all six bad—the one uttered is from the same mould as one of these found on him.

GUILTY .*†— Eighteen Months' Hard Labour.

7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-210
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceNo Punishment > sentence respited

Related Material

210. ALBERT EDWARD COLE (16) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.

MESSRS. LLOYD and. BAYLISS Prosecuted.

JANE CROW . I keep a bootshop at 38, Great Windmill Street—on 24th December, between 3 and 4 o'clock in the afternoon, the prisoner called for a pair of laces—I gave them to him; they came to 1 1/2 d.—I gave him 1s. 10 1/2 d. change out of a two-shilling piece—I put the florin on a shelf underneath the counter alone; I had no other money—I took it in the evening to Mr. Carman, at the public-house, and offered it for some beer—he broke it—these are the pieces (produced)—only one street separates Windmill from Lisle Street—subsequently, on Thursday, I was taken to the police-station, where I identified the prisoner from among six or seven others—I have no doubt whatever he is the man—I have taken 14s. 6d. bad money in the last few weeks.

THOMAS SMALL . I keep a dairy at 35, Lisle Street, Leicester Square—about 9 o'clock on the evening of Dec. 24 the prisoner came to my shop and bought two penny eggs, giving this florin in payment—I said "Where did you get it?"—he said "Off a 'bus conductor at Charing Cross"—I

said "Can you show me this 'bus that you got it from?"—he said "Yes, a blue Kennington 'bus"—I got my hat and accompanied him to Charing Cross; at Leicester Square I met a policeman and gave him in charge with the coin.

JOHN CLARE (Policeman C. 222). The prisoner was given into my custody by Mr. Small with this florin—he asked the prisoner how he got it he said he had it from a Kennington 'bus conductor in change for a five-shilling piece—there is no blue 'bus running in that part—a penny was found on him.

WILLIAM JOHN WEBSTER . Both these coins are bad and from the same mould.

Prisoner's Statement before the Magistrate."I have never been to Mrs. Crow's shop."

Prisoner's Defence. I have never been to the lady's shop at all. I had no intention of passing bad money at the milk-shop.

GUILTY.— Judgment respited.

7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-211
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

Related Material

211. SARAH GOODE , Unlawfully uttering a medal resembling a sovereign. Other Counts for attempting to obtain 19s. 7d. by false pretences, with intent to defraud.

MESSRS. LLOYD and. BAYLISS Prosecuted.

ANNIE CLEARY . I live at the Crown public-house, Harlesden Green, Willesden—on 13th December the prisoner came in between 12 and 1 o'clock and asked for a quartern of gin—she laid this Hanoverian medal (produced) on the counter and said nothing—I took it up and said it was no good—I think I said it was Hanoverian—she said her husband gave it her—she left the gin and took the coin and went away—I have known the prisoner eight or nine years—I didn't give her any change.

WILLIAM PRICE . I am head barman at the Willesden Junction Hotel, about five minutes' walk from the Crown—on 13th December, between 1 and 2 o'clock, a little girl came to our bar and produced this medal, which I kept.

MARGARET REED . I live at Avenue Road, Harlesden Green—on 13th December the prisoner and my daughter came in together between 1 and 2 o'clock—the prisoner said "What are you going to hit this girl for?"—I said "I asked her to ask her mistress for a shilling of her money where she goes to work"—Mrs. Orkner is her mistress—the prisoner said to me "Here is a sovereign, and if you can get it changed you can have a shilling of it"—I saw something in her hand, but not what coin it was—she said she had been to the Crown to get it changed and they said it was not good—she did not say whether it was good or bad; she said it was her husband's own money—she asked me if I could go and change it—I said "No, for I haven't been outside the door for several weeks, since I went to fetch my children from the Small-pox Hospital; my little girl can go and change it"—as she couldn't go to the hotel without having something I gave my little girl a bottle and said "Bring half a quartern of gin"—my little girl went down to the Junction Hotel—the prisoner stayed till she came back for her, and then she went to the hotel and was taken in custody.

Cross-examined. You said you had been to the Crown, and Miss Annie said it was not good, and you would like to know whether it was good or

not, as if not your husband could take it back—I said Lottie could go to the hotel and see if it was a good one—I have known you for some years as a good woman.

LOTTIE REED . I am the last witness's daughter—on 3rd December I saw the prisoner outside Mr. Stone's shop, where she lives—she said she had been up to the Crown—she gave me a sovereign like this and told me to go to Mrs. Anderson's, Junction Hotel, for half a quartern of gin—my mother was there—I went to the hotel with a bottle—I noticed the coin, and the "To Hanover" struck me; I had never seen it on a sovereign before—I asked the barman whether it was a good one—the prisoner did not tell me to ask whether it was a good one.

WILLIAM PRICE (Recalled). She came to the hotel and asked whether it was a good one—I told her it was not—I detained the sovereign and sent for her mother; she had then asked for no liquor—the prisoner came and a customer in the bar said "I saw her tender it in the Crown"—I gave the prisoner in custody.

RICHARD LUBY (Police Sergeant X. 37). I was called to the Junction Hotel about 1.45 on the 3rd December—the prisoner and the last witness were both standing at the bar—Price said "This little girl came here and asked me if this was a good sovereign; she said her mother sent it"—I told her to go and fetch her mother—whilst this conversation was going on a gentleman in another compartment asked in rather a loud voice whether this woman was up at the Grown this morning trying to pass that—the prisoner said, not in answer to a question put to her, "I was not there"—I then said to her "I shall lock you up and see if that is correct"—I took her to Annie Cleary and said "Is this the woman who was in here this morning tendering this medal?"—she said "Yes, she came in here and asked for a quartern of gin; I told her it was a Hanoverian and was no good"—the prisoner said "It is my husband's wages"—I told her I should take her in custody for attempting to defraud Annie Cleary by tendering this medal, representing it to be a sovereign—she then said "Will you allow me to go home and put on some clothes?"—I did so and accompanied her to her home, a few doors from the Crown—she lives in the back part of the house—she took me upstairs to a back bedroom—her husband was in bed—she said "Harry, the policeman," pointing to me, "says this is a bad sovereign"—I gave it to him and said "Did you take this as a sovereign?"—he looked at it and said "I don't think I took that; I don't know, I might have done"—I took her to the station and she was charged—she said she could read at the station, and she was marked in the charge-sheet "Degree of instruction, imperfect."

The prisoner, in her defence, stated that her husband had given her the medal out of his wages, and she thought it was a good one.


For cases tried in the Old Court, Thursday, see Surrey Cases.

NEW COURT.—Thursday, January. 10th, 1884.

Before Mr. Recorder.

7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-212
VerdictGuilty > with recommendation
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour; Miscellaneous

Related Material

212. JOHN DENNIS (44) , Embezzling the sums of 1l. 18s. 1d. 35l. 14s. 6d., and 35l. 14s. 6d., the money of Nathaniel John Fenner and others, his masters.

MR. BIGHAM, Q.C., and. MR. F. H. LEWIS Prosecuted;. MR. MONTAGU WILLIAMS Defended.

NATHANIEL JOHN FENNER . I am in partnership with my brother at Millwall as seed crushers and lead and oil merchants—the prisoner had been our clerk and bookkeeper about 20 years up to February 1883—he received 3l. a week salary and 100l. a year—we never discharged him; he went to attend on his sick father and illness supervened—we called in some accountants in June and had our books examined, a rough cash book, fair cash book, and ledger, which had been under the charge of and kept by Dennis—it was his duty to receive money and to account to me for all money received by him—it would be first entered in the rough cash book, which was balanced every week—that is the book which was presented before me whenever he did account, and the only book—the fair cash book is in his writing and is intended to be a copy of the rough cash book—the accounts were copied direct from the fair cash book into the ledger—we had supplied goods to the captain of the Albert Edward, but I find no entry in the rough cash book on 31st August, 1882, of 35l. 14s. 6d. for those goods; the addition of that column is 1,438l. 11s. 9d. in Dennis's writing—in the fair cash book on 31it August I find an entry in pencil of 35l. 14s. 6d. credited to the Albert Edward, and the original casting is 1,438l. 11s. 9d.—if the 35l. 14s. 6d. had been added up it would have made that sum plus 35l. 14s. 6d.—I think the entry in pencil crediting the amount, is in the prisoner's writing—this is the ledger, the amount is brought forward here in ink in Dennis's writing as being received on account of the Albert Edward—I find no entry in the rough cash book of 35l. 14s. 6d. to the credit of the ship Carl 15th on 10th October, 1882, but in the fair cash, book that amount is entered in Dennis's writing—the addition agrees in each book; the addition in the fair cash book should be what it is, plus 35l. 14s. 6d.—here is in the ledger on 10th October 37l. 12s. to the credit of the Carl 15th, which I imagine includes that amount with the discount—I am not quite sure whether that is Dennis's writing or the second clerk's, but it is posted in the fair cash book in Dennis's writing—there is no entry on September 2nd in the rough cash book of 1l. 18s. 1d. paid by McAndrew and Co. or any sum in which that is included—this (produced) is the receipt for the 1l. 18s. 1d., it is signed by Dennis—here is 6l. 5s. 7d. in the fair cash book in Dennis's writing on September 21st, which is brought forward into the ledger; he has not paid me any of those three amounts.

Cross-examined. I make these statements from the entries in the books—I found him always a faithful servant up to February last—his health failed in February—he had a very few days' holiday in the year whenever he asked for them—I did not tell him in February that we were going to have somebody to take his place, but in June we were compelled to do so—I had written to him to come back, but he declined—I wrote that there were discrepancies in the books which I wished him to come and explain—I have got a copy of that letter—some money was standing to his credit in the ledger—he assisted me in writing a letter in reference to a fire, a claim against an insurance company; that was a private matter—he has never claimed anything for that—this is one of the letters (In the letter book)—I was not away at the time I wrote that he was wrong in his accounts—I think it was in July or August that I made up

my mind to take out a warrant against him, I don't remember when I took it out—I said before the Magistrate, "In March last we had a fire on our premises; the prisoner came and assisted me to make up our claim; we recovered 3,000l. soon afterwards; the prisoner wrote to me claiming 140l. which he said was due"—that had nothing to do with the fire; there was 140l. standing to his credit in the ledger—that was done in his business hours; he came about 11 a.m., and went away about 2 o'clock—during the time he was away he had about 70l.—I most certainly never paid him any claim with regard to the fire—I have not balanced accounts with him and paid him—I have claims against him with regard to money which he has embezzled, and there is a balance due to him now of about 70l. or 80l.; the accountant can explain it, I cannot—the entries in the rough cash books were generally made in pencil—he may have rubbed out the pencil marks, I never did; at times they were rubbed out—I never took the rough cash book home, or the fair cash book—I made entries in the fair cash book myself—if Dennis had received money and entered it in the fair cash book in pencil in my absence I wrote it in next day—I was only there an hour or two in the morning—the pencil entries ought to be there until inked over by me, if I had the opportunity—I don't remember saying before the Magistrate, "The pencil marks were erased on the items in the rough cash book being entered in the fair cash book"—there are a great many there now—there was no necessity for erasing them—I admit saying, "I won't swear whether I was absent or not when these amounts were paid"—the rough cash book has not been altered to my knowledge since it was at the police-court, unless the accountant has added any figures—no pencil marks have been erased—our books were only audited by Dennis from year to year—Kemp, Ford, and Co. did nothing to those books, but we had an extra business as wharfingers, the prisoner audited the books there, and we paid him extra for it—that firm never borrowed money of him or used his money for interest—he had a crossed cheque for 150l. which he paid to us, and he wanted us to lend him another 150l. to buy a house, which we agreed to do—he has not had his 150l. back—I used to draft our letters and leave him to write them—he had to attend to the banking and to all the supervision of the office—his duties were very multifarious—he was in the habit of supervising the books, and had to look after the other clerks and take charge of everything—Malden kept the petty cash; Dennis would hand him what money he wanted from money which he received on our account—Mr. Fred Fenner is my nephew—I did not know that he was in the habit of borrowing from the petty cash account, this is the first I have heard of it—if these sums, which we charge him with embezzling had found their way into the petty cash book it would be quite in accordance with the office.

Re-examined. If Dennis supplied Malden or anybody else with petty cash it would be out of money which he had in hand, and it would be his duty to credit himself in the rough cash book with that payment—if any part of it was charged with petty cash the amount would go to his credit—here are three or four figures added together in my writing; on September 9, 1882, a bill for 158l. 12s. 6d., another for 76l. 13s. 8d. and another for 2l. 0s. 8d., and there was 10s. short—these figures in my writing represent the money that we had in the day produced by the prisoner, and which he told us he had received on 9th September—I

checked it with him and wrote it in—the balance did not include 35l. 14s. 6d. on account of the Albert Edward, if it had been received it ought to have been included in the amount—on 21st October, 1882, I find my own figures as to the Carl 15th representing the money he accounted to me for—that did not include the 35l. 14s. 6d., if it had the balance would have been 35l. 14s. 6d. more; the same facts apply to the 1l. 18s. 1d.—after Dennis failed to attend at our office in February, 1882, he received 70l. or 80l. for our firm; these amounts were paid in notes and gold, being paid by foreign captains.

DANIEL VIXEY BROWN . I paid Mr. Dennis the 1l. 18s. 1d. mentioned in these receipts (produced); this is one of the 'prosecutors' bills—I got the goods from them.

LUCAS. I am a chartered accountant—I have examined the rough cash book, the fair cash book, and the ledger—the rough cash book and fair cash book correspond as to the dates on which the sums purport to be received and the sums have been entered in the fair cash book, and the addition ought to be plus those sums—the addition in the rough cash book is correct, and in the fair cash book incorrect.

Cross-examined. The castings are not all in the prisoner's writing—no pencil marks have been rubbed out to my knowledge since the time I was at the police-court—there are pencil figures made by me for the purpose of casting up—the balance to the prisoner's account is 152l. 1s. 10d.

Re-examined. The casting in the fair cash book, as to these three sums, are in the prisoner's writing—his account with the prosecutor was kept in a private ledger entirely separate; I have turned to it; it is in his writing.

GUILTY. Recommended to mercy by the Jury on account of his long services. — Eighteen Months' Hard Labour, and to pay the costs of the prosecution, which are to be duly taxed.

THIRD COURT.—Thursday, January. 10th, 1884.

Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-213
VerdictGuilty > pleaded part guilty; Guilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude; Imprisonment > hard labour

Related Material

213. CHARLES COURTNEY (42) and GEORGE JOHN HART (60) , Unlawfully obtaining by false pretences from Alfred Wheeler and other persons divers valuable securities and sums of money, with intent to defraud. Other Counts for conspiracy.

After. MR. POLAND'S opening, Courtney stated in the hearing of the Jury that he was guilty on the whole indictment, and Hart stated that he was guilty on the conspiracy counts. The Jury upon this returned a verdict of.


COURTNEY then. PLEADED GUILTY to a previous conviction in the name of William Shaw in May. 1878, in this Court.— Five Years' Penal Servitude.

HART received a good character.— Nine Months' Hard Labour.

7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-214
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

Related Material

214. WALTER JAMES LEONARD (35) , Feloniously marrying Elizabeth Baldwin, his wife being alive.

MR. NORTH Prosecuted.

EMMA CLAY . I live at the School House, Ham Street, Bethnal Green—I was present in Bethnal Green Church, on 29th July, 1880, at the

marriage of Jane Emily Jenkins to Mr. Leonard—I believe the prisoner is the man, but I should not like swear to him—I see the woman in Court—I only know her by remembering her at the time.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. I remember your style; you look to me like a policeman in private clothes, or a soldier—I don't remember the man coming to the wedding in working-clothes—I said the man was thin and the woman stout—I cannot swear you are the man—the man who was married fetched another witness out of the street.

EDWARD FRANCIS COKE . I am the vicar of St. James-the-Great, Bethnal Green—I produce both the register books which witnesses have to sign—on 29th July, 1880, is the marriage of Leonard with Jane Emily Jenkins—in one boot there is a variation—Mr. Elliss began in my presence to sign the word Leonard, I stopped him, and Elliss was put over it, and then I gave particular instructions to the curate managing the second book to see he put Elliss, which was the name in which the banns were asked and in which they were married—I assisted to marry them—I recollect the prisoner as the man who was married—I was familiar with his face, but could not have sworn to him, but I was much more confident when I had seen the woman, and when I looked at the book I remembered all the particulars and cannot be mistaken as to his identity—I corrected his writing the wrong name, and the woman said "He is called Leonard"—I told him not to write the name and he scratched it out and put Elliss—I recollect Emma Clay as one of the witnesses.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. I said before the Magistrate "I cannot say if he is the man; his face is familiar to me, but that might be due to many circumstances"—I had not seen the woman then, and had only one book, not in my writing—when I saw the signature I recognised you as the man who had made the correction—all the circumstances came to my mind—I did not see the woman at the police-court—people are married for nothing at the Red Church—they are married according to law—about 600 are married there in a year—I dare say I have married about 1,800 people since I married you—you were married by yourselves, and the case was very peculiar—I had misgivings at the time—if I had not seen the second book I should not say I was positive—I know the Kingsland Road and Haggerston Station—I should say the ceremony took place about 10.50 or a few minutes after 11 o'clock—the ceremony would take 20 minutes I should say—it would take about 20 minutes or 25 minutes to walk from the church to the Fox in the Kingsland Road—that is the woman who was married; I have not spoken to her—I went into the waiting-room and asked her a question as to your boots—that had nothing to do with the marriage, but I wanted to see if her voice and manner confirmed the impression—I swear I said nothing more to her.

ELIZABETH BALDWIN . I live at 28, Tyson Street, Dalston—I was 18 last October—the signature "Elliss" in this book is the prisoner's writing—I know his writing; I have seen him write these two letters—on 5th December, 1881, I was married to him at St. Bartholomew's—I produce the certificate—the prisoner was married in the name of Leonard—I was only 16; he gave my age as 18—I found out that his name was Elliss when his father died last March—I had lived with him then two years—I asked him to explain why his name was Leonard and they called him

Elliss—he said because he enlisted in the name of Leonard—he said there were two s's at the end of Elliss.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. On 12th December I said I had only seen you write three or four times, and that was when you wrote to your aunt—you told me a long while ago your registered name was Leonard, but that an uncle of the name of Elliss had adopted you—I don't think you came into much money at your aunt's death—I heard her say at Ramsgate that she lived on the interest of money invested in the funds—I have heard your brother say that at your aunt's death your wife or her children would take that money—your wife would get 150l., your railway assurance as servant of the Great Eastern Railway, at your death—we had a child christened and registered in the name of Elliss—it was not kept a secret from me that your name was Elliss—I don't know if the other Woman heard of your aunt and said she intended to go to Ramsgate to have some of the property—you struck me and I ran to my mother's for protection—you burst the door open at 12 o'clock at night and took me back; I refused to return—I went to Worship Street for advice and charged you with bigamy—I did not arrange with the other woman to prove bigamy against you—I was employed at Mr. Hodges's; I have not been for 12 months—I do not want to get rid of you for young Hodges—I did not acknowledge that I had been unfaithful with him—my mother did not say that I ought to be ashamed of myself and that you were a man out of a hundred—I have given your letters to the police—I took them into the house—you gave them the keys—I saw you in the House of Detention and got an order for your last week's wages, which I took to you—I don't remember saying "If you are proved innocent I will never leave you again"—I have seen your writing too often not to be able to swear to it—you said to me "I dare say you have heard that I have had another wife"—I said "No, I haven't"—you said "Well, I have"—I said "Oh, you are a wicked man," and I made a row and you denied it afterwards—I did not say anything about it because I thought you did not mean it—I have assumed my maiden name—I did not want to be parted from you—I will sell the home and send the money to you.

HEPHSIBA CRESSWELL . I live at Haggerston—the prisoner lived there in 1880 with his wife for 10 or 11 months—they left three years ago last November—they were living there as man and wife in January, 1880—about two months before they left they had a word or two, and Mr. Leonard said he would go, and his wife said "Leave my certificate," and he took something—I did not see it—they made it up—I saw a paper in his hand; he did not give it to her.

Cross-examined. A detective came to me about the case—Mrs. Elliss did not come—I did not see her till we were at the Court—she did not speak to me there—Mrs. Leonard did not come to see me—I don't know what the quarrel was about—you were only known as Mr. and Mrs. Leonard when you lived at the house—your wife said Elliss was your right name—I had not the slightest doubt but that you were married; you always called her your wife.

THOMAS BROCKWELL (Police Sergeant N). On 12th December I took the prisoner—I asked him if his name was Elliss; he said "Yes"—at the station he gave his name as Walter Leonard.

Cross-examined. You lived close to the police-station—I came directly from the station—you were known in the neighbourhood as Leonard;

you were employed on the Great Eastern Railway as a goods porter—after taking you in custody I wished to search your place; you wished to accompany me, I refused to allow you—after you were charged I sent to Mrs. Elliss, Homerton—she was living in the name of Mrs. Brumer—I know another place where she lived in the name of Mrs. Elliss after leaving you—I asked her for her certificate; she said she had lost it—the inspector told the Magistrate that other evidence would be brought forward at the trial.

Witness for the Defence.

CHARLOTTE BALDWIN . I am the second wife's mother—the Mrs. Elliss you are alleged to have married came to my place about 12 months ago—she said she was your half-sister—I believed she was your wife—I told her you were my daughter's husband, and that you were at work—my daughter did not desire to be parted from you if you behaved well to her—you wrote a letter from prison saying that you would not have Counsel because they might find her guilty of perjury—she is a pretty good scholar; she can read.

The prisoner in his defence, stated that he had never married the first woman, but asserted that she was a prostitute with whom he had lived, and who afterwards married a Jew, who forged his (the prisoner's) name in the register.

ELIZABETH BALDWIN (Re-examined). I did not know he was married when he married me; he put up the banns and they were called twice before I knew it, and then he brought a six-chambered revolver and threatened to shoot me if I did not marry him.

GUILTY .— Twelve Months' Hard Labour.

OLD COURT.—Friday, January. 11th, 1884.

Before Mr. Justice Hawkins.

7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-215
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceMiscellaneous > fine; Miscellaneous > sureties

Related Material


MR. HORACE AVORY Prosecuted;. MR. KEITH appeared for Edward Ryan and Thomas. MR. PURCELL for Woodstock. MR. GEOGHEGAN for Williams, and. MR. PARSONS for Driscoll.

CHARLES FRY (Policeman S. 431). I am stationed at Barnet—from instructions I received from my inspector I went to Barnet Railway Station on the morning of 5th December, about 6 o'clock—I saw six men alight from the train—I recognise Driscoll as one, I do not know the others—I saw two of them go along the railway footpath towards Hadley Wood—I did not see where Driscoll went—I don't believe he was one of the two, as I believe I saw him in the waiting-room shortly after—I saw four men there, Edward Ryan was one, and I believe Driscoll—another down train arrived about 6.45—I saw sixteen men leaving the station, and going in the direction of Hadley Wood—I did not see them alight from the train—they were not there before the train arrived—they went in the same direction, towards Hadley Wood—I ran on by another path, and got to

Hadley Wood in advance of the men—I saw a number of men coming from the railway footpath into Hadley Wood; I should say there were about 20—I concealed myself in the wood, and got within about 40 yards of where the men formed a ring—I saw the ring after it was formed, I did not see it actually formed—they went some distance and stopped, and then went on again—I saw the ring formed by numerous persons standing round, and a fight began—the footpath goes by the side of the wood; it runs into the wood about 40 yards, but not so far as the men went—they left the footpath and wont about 200 or. 250 yards from it into the wood—I lost sight of them for about 10 minutes, I had to make my way through the wood down to where I saw the men going—I came up to within about 40 yards of where the ring was formed—it was formed when I came within view of them; by numerous persons standing round shoulder to shoulder—I did not see any ropes or stakes—I saw two men begin to fight, William Williams and Edward Ryan—they were stripped to the waist, and were inside the ring—I saw three or four blows struck—I should say they were fighting from 3 to 5 minutes before the police appeared on the scene—I believe there was a round—I believe one of the men fell down—I was not near enough to see which it was—each party seemed to be urging their own man on—I heard several callout "Go it, Bill," and some clapping of hands—on a signal the inspector appeared, and all the constables left the bushes, where a number of them had been concealed, and the crowd dispersed in every direction—I ran after Bakerf and apprehended him—he was running with a coat on his arm—he dropped it before I caught him—he had his own coat on—I brought him back to the place where the ring had been—I there found others in custody, William Williams amongst them, and he put on the coat that Baker had been carrying—I saw William Ryan, Nicholas Thompson, and Thomas—they ran in the same direction as Baker—I saw them taken into custody, and taken to the police-station—when I took Baker he said "All right, I will go quietly"—I believe Williams had a little blood on his nose.

Cross-examined by. MR. GEOGHEGAN. I saw no seconds—this was about a quarter past 7 in the morning—the place where I was concealed was a little higher than the men—Williams was dressed in ordinary trousers and boots—I heard no betting—I have never said "I did not see any blows struck, but I heard them"—I have not ascertained that the fight was not for money—I did not see that we had any right to stop the fight before it began, Hadley Wood is a public place—the inspector had received information, and communicated it to me.

Cross-examined by. MR. FRITH. There is a bridle-path through the wood from Hadley Church to Cock Fosters—the fight occurred about 200 or 250 yards from the bridle-path—I don't think a person going along the path would see where the fight was—there are some bushes—I dare say it might be seen from some part of the path—the path is a short cut from Barnet—strangers frequently go that way—I don't believe Edward Ryan alighted from the first train—I said so before the Magistrate, but I corrected it afterwards—when I first taw Thomas he was running away from where the crowd had been—I don't know how long he had been there—I don't think more than three or four blows were struck.

Cross-examined by. MR. PARSONS. I noticed at the police-station that

Driscoll had some bricklayer's tools with him, a trowel, a line, and some pins—after seeing him at the railway-station I did not see what became of him till I saw him in the wood—there is building going on in the neighbourhood of Barnet and at High Barnet; not in the wood or at Cock Fosters, that I know of—the path leads to High Barnet—it would be a mile out of the way from the station.

Cross-examined by Baker. I did not see you holding the coat while I was hiding—I did not see you pick it up and turn to run away—you had it on your arm when you ran away.

Re-examined. I have been stationed at Barnet four years—I did not know Driscoll by sight—he is a stranger at Barnet, and so are the others.

ROBERT STEMP (Police Sergeant S). I have been stationed at Barnet about two years and a half—from instructions I had from my inspector I went to Hadley Wood about 5 o'clock in the morning of 5th December with Inspector Skeats and a number of other constables—about 7.15 the prisoners arrived in the wood by the railway footpath—I cannot recognise them all—there were about 20 men—they went to a spot—upon a signal given I emerged from the bushes and apprehended Edward Ryan, one of the principals—he was running away from the ring, which was broken up—I took him back to the spot—I saw that he had some blood on his nose and his left eye was discoloured—he was stripped to the waist, and had on a kind of jersey—he had spikes in his shoes; I produce them; they were taken out of the shoes at the station. (MR. GEOGHEGAN and. MR. KEITH FRITH here stated that they should not contest that blows were struck. The persons standing round were shouting as if encouraging the men who were fighting—it almost amounted to a yell; they were over excited—they are all strangers to Barnet.

Cross-examined by. MR. GEOGHEGAN. I don't know that this fight was not for money, but that it was a private quarrel—we use the gloves sometimes in the police—I did not see the blows struck; I heard them.

By the. COURT. I saw Driscoll turn round and run away from the ring as I came up to it, and I saw Woodstock and William Ryan there—they ran away from the ring.

Cross-examined by. MR. PARSONS. There are workmen's trains to Barnet in the early morning—I don't suppose that all the bricklayers who work at Barnet live there.

Cross-examined by. MR. PURCELL. I saw Woodstock run away—I was with the inspector—directly the police appeared the crowd dispersed—we got close up to them, within 10 or 12 yards—I did not see Woodstock before he began to run—two of the police were in plain clothes; the others were all in uniform.

Cross-examined by William Ryan. The ring was about three or four yards across—you were all standing round—I could not say that you were touching each other's shoulders.

JAMES BANDY (Police Inspector S). I have been stationed at Barnet four months—I was in charge of the station when I received a telegram—I went to Hadley Wood with another constable—I saw from 20 to 30 men arrive from the direction of the railway path and enter an open space in the wood—I cannot identify any of those men—when the ring was broken up I apprehended Thomas—he was coming from the wood in company of Thompson—I saw most of the fight—I saw the ring formed

and I saw it broken up when the constables appeared—Thomas came exactly from the spot where I saw the ring broken up—he was coming at a sharp pace towards the railway path—on seeing me he slackened his pace—he was about 300 yards from where the ring had been—on the way to the station he said "Did you see me there?"—I said "No, I could not recognise you as being exactly at the ring"—he said he had not seen the fight; he had been in their company the day previous, and he was very foolish to come down.

LEWIS SKEATS (Police Inspector S). I have been in Barnet five months—when the ring was broken up I apprehended William Williams—he had some blood on his moustache—I did not see the ring formed, I saw it after it was formed, and saw the two principals, Williams and Edward Ryan, standing up—I saw Head, Baker, Driscoll, and Styles standing round, forming the ring, and as soon as they saw me coming they ran away.

Cross-examined by. MR. GEOGHEGAN. I have known Williams three or four years, he is foreman horsekeeper at Mr. Curnock's, in Marylebone—I know nothing against him—he is a respectable, quiet, peaceable man, as far as I know.

WILLIAM CULLING (Policeman S. 149). I have been stationed at Barnet three years—I do not know any of the defendants as inhabitants of the neighbourhood—I was concealed in the wood with the other constables—I was about 40 yards off when the ring was formed—I saw the men standing round in the ring—I identify Williams and Ryan as being in the ring; I could not from where I was identify any of those who were standing round—before the ring was formed I heard some one say "Let us pull it off here, don't go any farther"—I identify all the defendants as being present when that was said; I was then about 20 yards off—after that the ring was formed—when it was broken up I took William Ryan into custody as he was running away from the ring—he said "You have made a mistake this time, old man."

Cross-examined by. MR. FRITH. I could not say who it was that said "Let us pull it off here"—it was spoken loudly—Thomas was dressed in a long brown overcoat and a hard felt hat.

Cross-examined by. MR. PURCELL. Some of the men were on the turf, some walking together and some straggling—they were all strangers to me—they did not pass me—they went on, and stopped about 20 yards from where I was concealed—they were facing towards me—I had about two or three minutes to observe them—I can swear to all the defendants.

CHARLES MAYES (Policeman S. 355). I have been at Barnet a little over seven years—I do not know any of the prisoners—I was concealed in the wood—I apprehended Driscoll, he was running away from the ring—he had a trowel and a line in his pocket, no basket—he said he was going to work at Cubitt's job at the Earl of Strafford's—that was on the way to the station—I told him he was going the wrong way—he said "Oh, am I; I thought this was the way."

By the. COURT. Before he ran away he was going the right way—I have not made inquiry at Cubitt's as to whether he was employed there.

JOHN LITTLEBURY (Policeman S. 218). I have been at Barnet about two years and a half—I do not know any of the defendants—I was concealed in the wood—when the ring was broken up I arrested Wilson standing in the ring—he said "All right, I will go quietly."

WILLIAM EASTER (Policeman S. 84). I have been at Barnet about two years and three months—I do not know either of the defendants as residing in that neighbourhood—I was concealed in Hadley Wood with the other constables—when the ring was broken up I took Thompson into custody—I had seen him come into the wood by the railway path, and he helped to form the ring.

DAVID MOORE (Policeman S. 288). I have been stationed in Barnet five years and a half—I know none of the prisoners—I was concealed in the wood—when the ring was broken up I apprehended Woodstock running away from the ring—when I caught hold of him he said "All right, I will go quietly, I have done nothing"—I picked up a bottle full of water and two sponges, which I produce—they were found by the side of the bushes where the fight was supposed to have taken place.

Cross-examined by. MR. PURCELL. When I took Woodstock he was near 40 yards from where the ring had been.

WALTER JOYCE (Policeman S. 278). I have been at Barnet about three years—I do not know any of the defendants as residing in that district—after the ring was broken up I apprehended Head; he was running away from the ring—he said he had been easing himself.

DAVID TYCE (Policeman S. 466). I have been at Barnet three years and five months—I do not know any of the defendants as residents of that neighbourhood—on 5th December I was at the railway station, and saw Edward Ryan there, and three others who I do not identify—I afterwards went to the wood—when the ring was broken up I arrested Styles; he was running away from where the ring had been, and was between 20 and 30 yards from it—he said "All right, I will go quietly."

LEWIS SKEATS (Re-examined by the. COURT). Inspector Cole was in charge of Barnet Station; he is not here—Sergeant Thorne was present when the men were brought there; he is not here—names and addresses of prisoners are entered on the charge-sheet; that is not here—in cases of felony we make inquiries, but not in such a case as this—I never had a case of this kind before—I made inquiries about Williams; I have known him about two years—I just simply know Edward Ryan, but I do not know anything about him—I believe he attends races; I have known William Ryan as keeping a tobacconist's shop in Great Marylebone Street down to about the last six months—I have seen Baker about two years; he lives in Pear Street, Marylebone; I believe he is a clerk and a respectable man—I know his father perfectly well; he is a tailor, a very respectable man—I have known Styles about two years working for the same master as William Williams, and have known him to be a very steady, respectable man—I do not know any of the others.

GEORGE KING (Police Inspector T) deposed to the good character of Thomas, Styles, Baker, and Edward and William Ryan.

GUILTY . Fined 5l. each, and each to find one surety in 25l. and to enter into their own recognisance in 50l. each to keep the peace for twelve months.

OLD COURT.—Saturday, January. 12th, 1884.

Before Mr. Justice Hawkins.

7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-216
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude; Miscellaneous

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216. EDWARD AVIS (39) , Feloniously forging and uttering a certain deed with intent to defraud.


DAVID SAMUEL OATES . I am a Trinity House pilot, and live in West India Road, Poplar—I became acquainted with the prisoner at the end of September or the beginning of October, 1882—he was a commission agent, and had two offices in the City, one in Broad Street Buildings and another at 11, Coleman Street—in March last year I was with him at his office in Broad Street Buildings—he told me that there was a friend of his of the name of John Hammond, a retired publican, who required a sum of 230l. on mortgage for 12 months on some land at Solihull in the county of Warwick—he said that Mr. Hammond had bought the land in January and had paid 500l. for it, and that it would be a good and safe investment for 230l.—I told him that it was my wife's money I was dealing with as regards the mortgage—he assured me that it was perfectly safe, that I need not have any fear upon that score—he said Mr. Hammond would pay all expenses of going down to see the land—he said he was going down to see it, and that he would wire me from Solihull as to what he saw of the land, whether it was satisfactory or not—he said he would go down on Friday, and I got a telegram from him from Solihull on the Sunday—I destroyed it—the purport of it was that everything was satisfactory, and he would see me on his return to London—he did see me, about the 1st or 2nd of March to the best of my belief, at 2, Broad Street—he then said he was quite pleased with the land, that there was a tenant on it paving 40l. a year rent, that it was a good investment, and that I could well let my money go in that direction—I agreed to make the advance—he was to have the mortgage deed prepared—I had nobody to act for me, I left it entirely for him to prepare it—before-executing it I gave him a cheque for 30l.; this is it (produced), dated 13th March, 1883. and endorsed, by him—I gave it to him because he said that Mr. Hammond required some money to go on with—he afterwards showed me this mortgage deed (produced), it is in his handwriting—that was about the 18th or 19th of March, the day on which I gave him the balance of the money—this cheque for 119l. 13s., dated the 16th of March, 1883, is the cheque I gave him, it is endorsed by him—he produced the mortgage deed at the time I gave him the cheque—the balance was paid in cash before the deed was executed because I had no banking account at that time—the balance of 119l. was paid to him at the time the mortgage deed was handed over to me—the money I gave him on account was before the 30l., the balance made up the 230l.—he produced the deed to me already signed in his office in Broad Street Buildings, it purports to be signed by John Hammond, whose signature is attested by L. Eaton Turner, 33, Bedford Road, W.C—there is also a signature of Mr. Hammond to the receipt of the 230l. attested in the same way—I then signed the deed, and the prisoner's son Alfred Avis attested my signature; the prisoner at the same time handed to me this deed, purporting to be a conveyance from John Williams to Mr. Hammond, dated the 5th of January, 1883, in which the property is described as Monks Park Priory Farm, Solihull, Warwick—it was put into this envelope upon which the prisoner wrote—I know his handwriting very well, the body of the mortgage deed is his writing—I also believe the signature John Hammond to be the prisoner's writing—I am certain of it, and this endorsement on the envelope also—I took possession of the conveyance,

the mortgage deed, and the envelope at the time—I had a plan of the property four days afterwards when I went to his office in Broad Street—I saw him very often after that—I did not try to get my money back for the mortgage—I had lent him other money, and I asked him for that, and he gave me this cheque as further security—the whole of it is in his writing—he gave it me on the 10th of November, 1883; it is made payable to Percival Keller Landgate, 45, Bedford Road, W.C.—I tried to see the prisoner after that almost every day both at Coleman Street and Broad Street Buildings, but I could not find him—I then set to work to make inquiries about this property—I tried to find Mr. John Williams, of Ball's Pond Road, Islington, but could not find any such person there—I also tried to find Mr. John Hammond, of St. Luke's Road, Mildmay Park; there was no such road—I could not find Mr. Hammond—I did not look for the attesting witness, Mr. Burdon—I went down to Solihull, I found no Mr. Hammond there, and could not find the property there at all, there was no farm of that name—I could not find any such place as Monk's Farm Priory Place—I could not find Mr. Cornish, the surveyor, of Horn Green, or Mr. O.E. Smith, of Solihull, he had been out of the place for three years—it was in November when I went down—I did not find the River Cole, there is a Warwick Road—I did not find where the river was crossed by the Birmingham and Warwick Canal—when I made these discoveries I got a warrant and went and saw the public prosecutor, and the Solicitor to the Treasury took up the prosecution—I did not get any of my money back.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. I had lent money on mortgage before I knew you on two occasions—I was in the habit of lending money between 1881 and 1882 on various securities—I lent money on two mortgages and several promissory notes which you have in your possession, it was done through an agent—I had reason to be dissatisfied with that agent's conduct—I did not contemplate prosecuting him—I had several transactions with a firm in Billiter Street on which I advanced money, they were not satisfactory or I should not have gone to you—it was in November that I became acquainted with you—the mortgage with Hammond was negotiated in March, 1883—you did not tell me that you had advanced 35l. to Hammond—you did not show me any securities that you had of his—I let you have between 70l. and 80l. previous to giving you the first cheque for Hammond—I had no security for that but your word—you did not tell me that Hammond was introduced by a friend, you said he was a friend of yours—the City Bank was the first banking account I had—I advanced you some money, between the 1st and 6th in gold and notes—the cheque for 50l., which I gave you was to be given to Hammond, you told me to make it payable to you—I believe the mortgage and the conveyance was handed to me at the same time that I gave you the cheque for 119l.—I did not tell you that I was going to deposit them with some person against an advance of 218l.—I told you that the 230l. was my wife's money—you served me with a notice to produce my pass book, and here it is—I was to receive 10 per cent, interest on my money—I received two quarters, the last must have been in September—that was not paid to me by Hammond, but by you—I cannot say in what form, but I rather think it was a cheque—I have had no communications whatever with Hammond—the plan did not come to you in a letter, you gave it

me with your own hands in the office—there was no letter from Hammond at the time you pulled the plan out of an envelope, and said "That is your plan"—I received the telegram from you on the Sunday; I have not taken any steps to get a copy of it—I made no inquiries about the property till about 17th September I arrived at a suspicion in consequence of your keeping away from your office—I met you in a public-house in Chiswell Street shortly after 1st November, but I had no suspicion then about the mortgage—I am not certain about dates—I did not know that you were in difficulties in October and November, only about your creditors coming round your office and your keeping away—I did not know whether your household goods had been seized under a distraint, I know it now—I have lent you money very often, which has never been repaid—I think 36l. was the largest cheque you borrowed of me at one time; there were a great many of them—you asked me to lend you money—they were for advances on goods which I believe were never in existence—I lent your money partly for your own benefit, and partly on goods, intending that whatever was made out of it we should share the profit—I gave you money to speculate with for our mutual advantage.

FREDERICK CHINN . I live at Warwick Road, Solihull, in the county of Warwick—I am assistant overseer of that parish—I was born there, and have lived there all my life—I know the parish and the adjacent property—there is no such place there to my knowledge as Monk's Park; Priory Farm—there is a signature of "C. Cornish, surveyor, Horne Green," on the plan produced—there is a place called Horne Green, but not in Solihull; I know no Mr. Cornish, a surveyor—there was a solicitor named Smith at Solihull once, but he left two years last June—this signature does not appear like his; to the best of my belief it is net—there is a River Cole in Solihull parish; it does not intersect Warwick Boad, as described on this plan; it is four or five miles away—I do not know any Mr. John Hammond in that parish, or as the owner of any land there.

Cross-examined. There is only one telegraph office there—I do not know whether it is open on Sundays.

PERCY KELHAM LANGDALE . My present office is at 50, Holborn Viaduct—I was formerly a solicitor in partnership with William Richard Eaton Turner, of 30, Bedford Bow—I have ceased to have offices there since June, 1882—I knew the prisoner when I had offices there on a matter of business which, I think, was completed in January, 1881—the signature of L. Eaton Turner to this mortgage deed is not the signature of my former partner—I do not know any place called Bedford Road—I know nothing of this conveyance of 10th November.

Cross-examined. It is addressed to "Percival Keller Landgate," instead of Percy Melham Langdale—I know no Mr. Landgate in Bedford Bow.

JOHN MITCHELL (City Police Sergeant). On 27th November I received a warrant for the prisoner's arrest, and on 28th, at 10.30 a.m., I found him in custody at the Old Jewry—I told him I was a detective sergeant of police, and asked him his name—he said "Edward Avis"—I said I had a warrant, and asked him if he was the person referred to in it—he said he was—I read it to him—it was for obtaining 119l. by false pretences—on the way to the station he said "I had a nice message from Mr. Oats yesterday; I did not think he would have taken these steps, if

I had, I should have shaved and disguised myself, and you would not have found me so easily"—I said "I suppose you would have skedaddled?.—he said "Well, I don't know, I had no occasion to anticipate anything of the kind."

GEORGE SMITH INGLIS , of Red Lion Square, Holborn. I have of late years been employed in examining handwriting, and have given evidence in Courts of Justice—I have examined this envelope, the mortgage deed, and this conveyance; in my opinion the body of the mortgage deed and the signature of John Hammond are in the same handwriting; also the signature of Hammond to the conveyance, and that of Williams to the deed.

The Prisoner's Statement before the Magistrate."I have nothing to say at present. I call no witnesses."

The prisoner, in his defence, maintained that he was in personal communication with Hammond in the transaction, and that he had acted throughout in good faith, and that the reason of the prosecutor pressing this matter was to obtain the return of moneys which he had advanced to him on loan.


The indictment further charged that the prisoner had been previously convicted at the Birmingham Quarter Sessions, on 11th October, 1866. To this he.


MAJOR FLAVEL . I was a detective sergeant in the Birmingham Borough Police—I produce a certificate. (This certified the conviction of Edward Howard Avis on 11th October, 1866, of embezzlement.) The prisoner is the person—I arrested him on the charge—I saw him from time to time before the Magistrate and at the trial—he pleaded guilty—I picked him out from a number of others here in the gaol.

Cross-examined. I had not seen you since your trial in 1866—you have not the same appearance—I picked you out of seven men on Tuesday night here; four or five of them were youths of 18 or 19.

NOT GUILTY of the previous conviction.— Seven Years' Penal Servitude on the conviction, and to pay 50l. to the prosecutor by way of compensation for his loss.

NEW COURT.—Friday, January. 11th, and Saturday, January. 12th, 1884.

Before Mr. Recorder.

7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-217
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceNo Punishment > sentence respited

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217. ALEXANDER MARCUS REENS and JOSEPH REENS , Unlawfully conspiring to defraud their creditors in bankruptcy.

MESSRS. BESLEY and. TICKELL Prosecuted;. MESSRS. KEMP. Q.C., and INNES Defended.

HENRY ALFRED STACEY . I am Superintendent of Records in the London Bankruptcy Court—I produce the file of proceedings in the liquidation of the prisoners—they are described as of 62, Tenter Street, Goodman's Fields, and Harford Street, Middlesex, and of Harlem, growers of Dutch bulbs—their petition was presented on the 2nd, and filed on 3rd January, in which the amount shown is 7,100l.—this is a list of 154 creditors to whom notice of the first meeting was to be sent—the first meeting was on 25th January, when Mr. Farris was appointed manager and receiver—I do not think any offer was made at that

meeting—the adjourned first meeting was on 1st February, when Mr. Faris was appointed trustee of the estate—here is a statement of affairs on 2nd February, showing the total debts, 7,024l. 12s. 4l. made up of unsecured creditors, 6,089l. 12s. 4d.; creditors for rent and taxes, 35l.; and assets, 1,066l. 18s. 3d., which is made up of stock-in-trade at Jonson Street, Stepney, Mile End Road, nursery ground, 260l.; book debts, 570l.; and cash in hand, 1l. 18s. 3d.; furniture, fixtures, and fittings at Lichfield Road, 135l.; and property as per list G, 120l.—the balance is subsequently reduced by costs which have not been taxed, but which are estimated to exceed the balance, value nil—there are 154 creditors in list A, 43 of whom are under 10l.—there was a meeting of creditors on 11th June, 1883, at 14, Bedford Bow, but no resolution was passed—I find on the file a transcript of the defendants' examinations on 27th June, 18th July, 19th July, and 19th August.

Cross-examined by. MR. KEMP. Mr. Jennings was the solicitor throughout the bankruptcy—the statement of affairs required to be filed is that of the affairs at the date of the petition—I do not attend the meetings.

GEORGE CHARLES HASLEDINE JENNINGS . I am a solicitor in business with my father—we first acted for the defendants in the Chancery suit of Isaacs, which has been going on since 1879 as to a dissolution of partnership—I have a note on 27th December "Attendance on Mr. Carvallo as to their financial position, more especially as to their Dutch business"—they were both there, and Mr. Cavalla and my father and myself, for upwards of two hours—the result was that they determined to file a petition, and the one on the file was prepared in my office, and after it was filed we said that we could not prepare the statement, and Mr. Leening was employed—we prepared the list of creditors from, the paper supplied to us—the first meeting was on the 25th of January—our bill of costs represents exactly what we did—the first meeting was adjourned for a week for the debtors to take into consideration whether more than 2s. in the pound should be offered, and through the absence of Joseph Reens from illness—I had secured 30l. on account of our costs from one of the debtors on the 2nd January previous to filing the petition—that was paid by this cheque of Mr. Legerton, which is endorsed by Joseph Reens, and 10s. in money; and on 4th January we received a further sum, and after that 2l. 5s. by cheque—we handed over to Mr. Faris the difference between our taxed costs, 38l. 7s. 6d., and the actual amount we had received—we ceased to act from February 1st.

Cross-examined by. MR. KEMP. A receiver was applied for by the Dutch creditors—I have known the defendants some time, they are exceedingly illiterate, they can write their names, and that is about the extent of it—Marcus cannot speak English, an interpreter had to be engaged except when his brother or cousin were there—I only saw Mr. Carvallo there once—the larger number of creditors were in Holland—I introduced Mr. Leeming to them—he had to be paid his charges, they arranged that with him, we did not pay them.

Re-examined. I have not seen the account of Rose Innes and Co., as to the payment of the balance.

ADOLPHE PARMET (Interpreted). I am one of the firm of Parmet Brothers, bulb growers, of Ballibrook, near Harlem—on 15th July, 1882, Marcus Beens came to my boathouse and asked whether I had any

bulbs for sale—I showed him some at ten cents each, half to be paid in cash, and the rest on November 1st—ten cents is 2d. English—he offered me nine cents, and we did not agree—he afterwards wrote a letter to me, and I sold him bulbs to the amount of about 1,100 guilders—the bulbs were delivered the same day—he showed me the building and said "This is a beautiful building, it cost me a good deal of money"—he now owes me 800 guilders—I received this letter from him. (In Dutch): "1st October, 1882. Dear Sir,—Your kind note came this week, there is no money, and as soon as we receive any I shall come myself to Haarlem"—I also received this letter: "London, 14th December, 1882. Dear Sir,—I am sorry I have received such a letter from you, it is not my fault; it is to-day foggy, and nobody came out of doors, so you must have patience, A.M.R. and J.R."—the creditors are bulb growers, there are 120 or 130 of them, and I know them all.

Cross-examined by. MR. KEMP. I am not poor but I am not rich—I can earn my bread—I took no reference—I had never dealt with them before—I have come over from Holland expressly for this case.

Re-examined. Before coming over I communicated with the other creditors, and we had many meetings—most of them are in a poor condition of life, and many of them are ruined.

GEORGE BLAGROVE SNELL . I am senior official shorthand writer to the Bankruptoy Court—I produce the original shorthand notes of the defendant's examination on 27th June, 18th July, 19th July, and 19th August, transcripts of which are on the file—they are correct—Marcus was examined through an interpreter named Zinker, and there was another interpreter to check him.

Cross-examined by. MR. KEMP. The depositions are said to be taken before Mr. Registrar Hazlitt, but where parties do not insist upon the attendance of the Registrar, there is an arm-chair, and the Registrar is in the building, and if the parties wish for his attendance he always comes—the bankrupt is summoned to be examined by the trustee, for the purpose of discovering his estate—there is no examination in chief, but the person representing a defendant is now allowed as a matter of courtesy to put questions—that is the result of a gradual practice—you have to apply for it in some cases before it is allowed—it is an innovation on the old practice—it always follows when the person attending for the bankrupt states to the Registrar that the evidence has not been sufficiently explicit—if the Registrar was not there it would be necessary to send for him.

Re-examined. I believe the Registrar was sent for in this case, because a question was raised about the interpreter—there is no obstacle to having a legal gentleman to represent the bankrupt, it is almost invited—there was not only a check interpreter, but a solicitor as well, and whenever the Registrar was required he was seen—he put some of the questions, as my notes show—no reference was required. (The shorthand notes of the examinations of both defendants were here read.)

WILLIAM OLIPHANT HUGHES . I am a clerk at the Central Bank of London, Limited, Whitechapel branch—this (produced) is Joseph Reens's pass-book—this is the signature of Mr. Robert Evans, the manager of the bank. (To an affidavit of the accuracy of a copy of the ledger account)—we deliver to every customer a paying-in slip book, made with perforations to tear off the slip and keep die counterfoil—these 10 cheques are all

drawn on account of Joseph Reens on our bank—they were all charged against the account and then sent back to the customer, in the pass-book.

Cross-examined by. MR. INNES. Sometimes the customers use the paying in slips which are in the bank if they do not bring their book with them.

ALFRED LEDSDEN . I am a seed merchant, of 5, Aldgate—I had dealings with the prisoners for Dutch bulbs, and owed them 29l. 10s. on 2nd January—Joseph Reens came with my account, and I gave him this cheque for 29l. 10s., which was duly paid—this (produced) is the receipted account—that was the last transaction; it was in the autumn of 1882—this is the statement of the account.

SOLOMON JACOB BRESLAU . I live at Amsterdam—I have known Marcus Reens 25 years—I have only seen Joseph twice—in 1881 Marcus Reens brought me a present of some flowers as an ordinary act of civility, and in the summer of 1882 he came again, and every time he came he brought me a present of flowers—he said that his business was so large that he never had such a good year before, and he had been building a very large warehouse in Haarlem, paying for which made him rather short of money, having large orders in hand from England, and could I do him a favour and lend him 500l.—I told him I had laid out all my loose money—he said "Could not you assist me with a bill, discount it?"—I said "I will see what I can do," and he brought me this bill not quite a week afterwards on the day after the date. (Dated 29th June. 1882)—I said "I didn't promise to get you the money but I will do my best"—he invited me to see the building, and I went the following Sunday—the house and warehouse were occupied—he said it was newly built and there was no debt on it at all—I asked him if it was mortgaged—he said "No"—I wrote and told him I could not get the bill discounted, and he came to me nearly crying and asked me to assist him—I wrote a note to a friend in his presence and asked him to lend me 1,000 guilders, which I gave to Marcus Reens about 17th July, and on August 1st I gave him 2,000 guilders—he came again on 4th August, and I gave him 3,000 guilders, all in notes—Joseph was present on 4th August and once before, and he said to Joseph. "There are 600 guilders, keep that for the expenses of the bill"—I had not kept back 50l. or a penny, but the 600 guilders were left—the bill had not been discounted, I could not get it done, as it was a six months' bill; I kept it about three months and then got it discounted as it was only a three months' bill—I got 6,000 guilders for it, less discount—I had to pay it back when it was dishonoured—I wrote to the defendants and asked why they did not send me some creeping roses which they had promised me, but I got no answer—the bill was due on 1st January, 1883, but I had heard rumors in December of their insolvency—I had written to them constantly—after the bill was dishonoured I got a notice of liquidation—I did not see them afterwards—I have not got back any of my money—I know some people who have been paid back, I know Mr. Swede.

Cross-examined by. MR. KEMP. I advanced in all 6,000 guilders, all in notes; our money is mostly paper, as we do not keep so many bankers as you do here—I took no security but the bill—I believe there is a registry of mortgages in Holland, I did not go and look at it because it was Sunday—I believe a day or two elapsed before I gave him the first money—I never expected anything from him, but he said "That will cover

the expenses of the bill,' and I consider that is one of his tricks, because he is not such a fool as he looks—my bank would not take the bill and I discounted it at Dresler and Cos., and paid them 10 per cent.

Re-examined. That is not high, because money is dearer than here and money was very high then—whatever it was I lost it.

HENRY W. MORILLIER . I am an articled clerk to Mr. Faris the trustee—on January 1st, 1883, I went to the defendants' warehouse in Baker Street and took away books and papers and delivered them to the trustee—between 27th January and 12th February a man was put in possession on behalf of Joseph Reens, the trustee, at 35, Lichfield Street, and on the last day I believe the furniture was sold—between those dates I went there nearly every day and saw Joseph Reens very frequently, but had very little conversation with him as to his affairs—he said that it was not his fault, it was the fault of his brother Marcus, and wanted to know when it would be closed—on the first occasion I went I saw a man named Carvallo there, but I did not then know that there was more than one Carvallo—he said he was an old friend of his and held the warehouse jointly with Carvallo, a furniture dealer, for storing his goods.

RICHARD SPEARMAN EDWARD FARIS . I am a Fellow of the Institute of Chartered Accountants, and carry on business at Bedford Row—I had no knowledge of the defendants before 25th January, when I represented certain creditors at the first meeting—an appointment was given to me on the day after the first meeting—on the same day I tried to get the books, and was met by the point that I had not been confirmed by the Bankruptoy Court—on 27th January my solicitor got my appointment confirmed, and then a further objection was made to my having the books—on 30th January I went with Reens to 35, Lichfield Street—I said that the books handed over were very incomplete, he must have others in his possession—he said, "If there are Mr. Leeming has them"—I said that if they were not forthcoming the next morning I must report it to the creditors, and asked where the key of the safe was—he gave it to me, and my clerk brought away a lot of warehouse rubbish of no importance whatever; one was a memorandum book and pencil—Mr. Leeming sent a parcel of books on the 31st which contained the entries which realty form the subject of this charge—on 1st February I attended the adjourned meeting—I had only had one day to look at the books, but I communicated to the creditors the result of my cursory examination, and the result was a proposal to pay 2s. in the pound, and when they heard my report they made it 4s.—the first book I received was one called the private customers' book, which he objected to call a ledger; the other is the anction book—the expenses book and pass-book came in the second parcel from Mr. Leeming—I never saw any counterfoil paying-in slips; they would have been very useful to check the payments into the bank—I saw one cheque-book—these 10 cheques were sent by Mr. Leeming about 5th February; they are the only returned cheques which have come into my possession—I think the bundle of vouchers also came from Mr. Leeming—I saw no documents relating to the borrowing except two of Paulin's—I find no entry in the books of borrowings, and cannot trace them as going into the bank—the 4s. was refused at the adjourned meeting, and he asked if 5s. would be accepted—on 3rd February I addressed this letter to the defendants. (Demanding payment of all sums received by them since the liquidation, and certain sums

paid them by their creditors within three months of which there was no entry, total 2,486l. 10s., and giving them notice not to part with any money out of which they proponed to pay a dividend of 5s. in the pound, and demanding a full disclosure of all their affairs; and all documents in their possession.)—I did not then know anything about the payments in reference to Louis Reens, that was one of the objects of the examination—there was an omission to ask them to explain anything about Joseph Nathan; I know nothing about that—I have had no information as to Carvallo; I have made many applications, both verbally and in writing, and the same answer applies to Swede, Louis Reens, Happy, and Nathan—in the statement of affairs the liabilities are 7,024l. 12s. 4d.—that is not all proved for, but the amount has been increased by 420l., and the liabilities now are 7,395l. 15s. 2d.—the stock-in-trade estimated at 250l. realised 36l. 4s., not deducting the expenses of sale—it came to 39l. 6s. 9d. net; that included a few of the tenants' fixtures and fittings, which could be taken away, and which were worth taking away, which were included in the sale—the book debts realised 526l. 13s. 3d.—the balance at the bankers, 1l. 18s. 3d., was paid to me about 5th January—the furniture at the place of residence was bought by Louis Reens; I got 140l. for that; the estimate was 125l.—some small articles were put into the sale, but I do not think anything was realised—I never got anything for the freehold warehouse at, Haarlem—I have applied for the deeds, but I have not seen them—the payments out of Chancery instead of being nothing amounted to 31l.—I received 8l. 0s. 4d. balance collected by the debtors; this is the way that was accounted for. (Reading the items, total. 109l. 5s. 9d.)—the auction began on the 3rd, and ran up to 19th January, and gave a total of 155l. 16s. 11l., and the balance, 8l., was handed over, and there was 3l. 17s. 6d. on the taxation of Mr. Jennings's bill—the actual assets which reached my hands were about 738l. 18s.—the cash received by the debtors in the six months previous to their bankruptoy, as by their cash, book, is 4,663l. 16s. 3d.—on the other side I find trade expenses 645l. 16s. 10d.—the cash alleged to be paid for oysters is 50l. less discount; that leaves 3,959l. 11s. 9d. to be accounted for, and that is the amount which, without professional payments, should be divided among the creditors—they drew out monthly in various names from July to December—the account collected by them is not included, nor is that included in the 450l. which Mr. Breslau proves to have given them in July and August—I get that from their facts—even assuming they had a right to pay the professional creditors, there is still in six months about 849l. not accounted for, to be added to the 450l. of Mr. Breslau's—I have made out a profit and loss account from their statement, from July 1 to December 31; it is entirely founded on the assumption that the debtors' statements in their examinations are true, and on that assumption they got 500l. from Carvallo in July—I have assumed that there were advances by the professional creditors—I have taken their statement that 1,250l. had been borrowed of Carvallo, and that the amount borrowed in July was 500l. and not 750l.—I take the cash received from professional creditors in six months at 1,812l.; as to the payments, I have taken out the horse and the incidentals, and that gives a total of 8,098l.—on the assumption that the bulbs were sold only at the cost price, plus packing and printing, the deficiency on six months' trading is 3,500l.—40l. was lodged by the debtors for the purpose of taking the opinion of

their creditors at another meeting—there are 160 creditors, and I think the additional ones are English—the cost of calling the meeting was large, as about 150 creditors lived abroad, and notices had to be posted to them—the meeting refused the offer and insisted on an inquiry—I have only found one counterfoil of a cheque—statements are made in the examination that Carvallo lent money in 1879, 1880, 1881, and 1882, and had it back—I find after November 21, 1879, nine cheques drawn in the name of Carvallo, the last two are drawn to Carvallo and Nathan—that is how the balance was brought to 1l. 18s. 3d.—453l. 10s. 4d. is charged to the builder and architect of the house at Haarlem—I believe it was Carvallo who got the mortgage which the accounts say existed from March, 1881; I cannot remember that the statement on oath was since March, 1882.

Cross-examined by. MR. KEMP. I have not been to Haarlem—I have seen Carvallo but not the others—the profit-and-loss sheet was made out before the hearing, and it has been slightly altered since—I have not shown it to any one belonging to the defendants till the present moment—payments to Duncan, the South Eastern Railway, and Sparkers are included in the expenses, making 645l. paid to people on professional credit—the books have been kept very badly; I had no means of separating the amount of gross receipts; they may probably include accounts from previous years—the figures are taken from the books—there is no trace of the loans by Breslau in the books, but he did lend money, and therefore I infer that the rest not appearing in the books, it never was lent—my appointment was confirmed on January 27—between February and June negotiations were going on with a view of paying four shillings in the pound after Mr. Pannell inspected the books—part of the proposition was that all costs should be paid in the solicitor's costs—I do not know that my costs were 140l. and the solicitor's 160l.—I did not demand anything—when you have 160 creditors it is difficult to get at them, we sent notices to every one—Mr. Miles was my solicitor—here is my account of costs, "Trustee's remuneration 140l.," that is me; they did not carry out that arrangement—how can I tell whether they got the money to pay—up to that time we had not instituted criminal proceedings—I do not think they would have been instituted if the four shillings in the pound had been paid—they afterwards offered 500l., which they brought to the meeting, but the creditors would not take it—I attended the meeting, and so did three or four creditors—I do not know that my solicitor had proxies for over 100 creditors—40l. was paid for calling that meeting—I only received 15l. of that, the greater part of that was outlay for lithographic forms, and postage twopence-halfpenny each, and the meetings had to be advertised—this (produced) is the advertisement—I insisted that the estate should be put to no expense—I received over 700l. early in 1883—no dividend has been paid.

Re-examined. After Mr. Pannell had inspected the books I listened to the proposals of the debtors' advisers and reported to the creditors the same day, and the result of my report, which was a most impartial one, was that the creditors accepted it, but they never carried it out—it was made part of the conditions that if they paid 5s. in the pound the debtors should be discharged—that was an understood condition between Mr. Crick and myself—the creditors offered to take the 4s. on my report—Mr. Cartwright has been to my office three times and seen the books,

and I gave him every possible facility—with regard to 51l. 6s. 8d. drawn out in the name of Reens, that was entered in the expenses book to Zessic, which means Alexander Marcus, on November 6th—that was on one part, the other part was 20l. for an unused warehouse—the opportunity was offered, to Mr. Cartwright to investigate—I am not acting under Board of Trade orders with regard to holding money over; but it has been a separate account from the first—I have applied to the Board of Trade to take over my balance.

ABRAHAM CORNELIUS LE BLINDER (Interpreted). I am an oyster dealer residing at Zeland in Holland—in September, 1882, A.M. Reens came to me and ordered half a million to a million of oysters to be sent from time to time, 20,000 at a time—I agreed to send them—I did not know him or his brother, but I had seen them in the summer, when they said that they were dealers in bulbs—they said they would pay in parts when the order was finished—I trusted them through a friend of theirs, Mr. Suffer, of Haarlem, a large dealer in bulbs, own said that I might give them credit—I got 600 guilders from Marcus Reens in Haarlem on October 18th, but never received any more, though I parted with 18,000 oysters in December at 74 guilders per 1,000—they owe me 2,376 guilders—I afterwards received this letter. (Translated:. "I have received your letter. I am as much sorry as you are that it is impossible for me to help you to money before the commencement of January; then I will come and pay you myself, and I will try my best for the oysters. A. M. Reens.")

Cross-examined by. MR. KEMP. Four barrels of oysters were sent back, each containing 1,000.

BENJAMIN FORDHAM (Detective Officer). On 24th November I took Joseph Reens at 35, Lichfield Street—I read the warrant to him—he said "I have no business, I have not had any business since last year"—I was at the station when Marcus was in custody—he said "Have you been to Lichfield Road?"—I said "No"—he said "He ought to be here more than me."

Cross-examined by. MR. KEMP. He spoke broken English—Sergeant Foster arrested him, he arrested another man first by mistake—I did not swear that he was the man who said that.

Re-examined. He is also called Alexander Marcus Reens, and I took the wrong Alexander Marcus Reens.

Witnesses for the Defence.

MR. CRICK. I am a partner in the firm of solicitors who are defending the prisoners—I went to Holland and found Mr. Carvallo and Mr. Swallow—they refused to come over here—Mr. Swallow gave me two bills of exchange, one for 200l. and one for 100l., accepted by Joseph Reens, July 1st, 1882, payable three months after date—I have not been able to find Mr. Nathan, I believe he has gone to America—I saw Mr. Paulin at Haarlem and tried to persuade him to come over as a witness—he refused as he could not leave his business—his father is dead.

Cross-examined by. MR. BESLEY. We first began to act for the defendants early in February, 1883—I paid Mr. Swallow the expenses he had incurred in having the bills protested—they were both dishonoured—on October 4, 1882, I gave him 5l., and he allowed me to take them—that was the first time I had been in Holland—I arrived one night, and stopped all the next day—I taw Mr. Guelder, who had the 66l.—I have

a certificate from Z.R. Carvallo's doctor that he is ill and cannot come over (produced)—Mr. Swade did not tell me that the bills were renewed—he called, and shortly after they became due 100l. was paid to his account at the Westminster Bank, Whitechapel branch—he did not say that the bill was renewed and fell due on 7th January, 1883—he said "I will show you all the documents"—I was shown two dishonoured bills, and inquired how they had been paid—he said one was paid with 100l. to his account at the Westminster Bank, Whitechapel branch, and the other was paid about December by A. Carvallo—I was not told distinctly that there was a renewal of the bill.

MICHAEL REENS . I am the son of Joseph Reens, who is very ill with consumption—while he carried on business with Marcus Reens I sometimes assisted—Marcus cannot speak English; he does not know sufficient to ask the question "Have you been to Tichfield Street?"or to understand the answer—they are both unable to read or write, except to sign their signatures—I can write—the books were kept very regularly—I know of no books besides those produced—I know Mr. Carvallo; he came very frequently—I have heard him demand money and promise to lend it again—he came in the morning, and stopped till we closed or till he could get his money—I knew of his lending money—Mr. Nathan has gone to America—in 1881 and 1882 my father used to throw a lot of bulbs away, and we used to send cases to auctions unreserved, and some, which he gave between 6l. and 8l. for, were bought up at 10s. to 2l.—I know Mr. Swade—he lent my father money and required payment—Louis Reens is a cigar manufacturer—he is my father's brother-in-law's brother—I know of his lending them money—I have no brother—it was Alexander Marcus's son, Hoppy. who lent them the money—the paying-in slip-book was not used.

Cross-examined by. MR. BESLEY. Hoppy is a boy of 19—I was always at Tenter Street; Hoppy worked there and had 25s. a week—A. Carvallo was employed there; he is a brother of Z. Carvallo—he had more than 30s. a week—Hoppy got 3l. 11s. 6d. on 13th January, expenses for work done—he is carrying on the business now—he has the same creditors who are creditors now—I do not say all the 160, but some of them—I cannot give you the name of one—I cannot say whether he gets credit from a dozen or from five—I am not in the business now—I cannot say whether the bill was renewed to Swade—I only wrote in the words of the cheque, and my father signed them—I kept no book to show that I did not overdraw—I cannot tell you how the account came to be drawn so low as 1l. 0s. 2d.—I only saw Z. Carvallo lend money—I know that his mother lent it—I know her, and I know her two sons—I gave this cheque of 28th December for 115l. to A. Carvallo—that was sent to Holland to make up the 200l.; it has nothing to do with Z.R. Carvallo—the other eight cheques are all my writing—they are to the man who is supposed to have lent his mother's money—Z.R. Carvallo was paid off every shilling at the time of the stoppage—I cannot tell whether that was the last payment or not—a bill of Swade's was running on December 26 for 200l.; that came to Holland to pay Swade his money with—I do not know whether Nathan's cheque was drawn first or the other—I do not know whether I was supplied with cheque-books in twenty-fives or fifties—I believe these series of cheques from November 4 to December 28 came out of the same cheque-book—I cannot say whether

the last cheque to Nathan for 121l. was the beginning of a new cheque-book—121l. was the money he lent—I knew that 300l. was due to Swade, and I booked it as paid in the expenses book, but I did not know whether it was paid or not, as they told me there was not sufficient to pay Swade, but I had booked it already—I booked the 300l. as I thought there was money to pay him, but afterwards my father told me there was only 100l. to pay him—we had booked it, and could not alter it—I thought the 200l. would be paid, so I left it as it was—I have entered here "Swade, October 2, 300l."—I know that a cheque for 100l. was drawn, but I do not know that it was next day—I did not correct the entry, because I knew that the 200l. would be paid.

AARON CARVALLO . I am the brother of Zodiac Carvallo—he advanced money to the defendants—it was my mother's money, and he was constantly pressed for the return of it—I did not lend the defendants any monoy—the 115l. which they paid me did not go into my pocket—I know about the bulb trade; young Mr. Keens is correct in his statement about what happened in that business—the 1,250l. which is alleged to be lent was my mother's property; I received it from a notary who sold it for her—the 1,250/. was paid to them in Haarlem, and 500l. was lent in London—I paid Van Guilder 66l.—he was the solicitor in Holland.

Cross-examined by. MR. BESLEY. I saw the cheque for 115l. drawn in the warehouse—this is it (produced)—in this counterfoil cheque-book here is a counterfoil on December 26th, 1882, "A. Carvallo, for Swade"—that is the one I saw written—it is the same writing as the cheque—when I got the cheque I went to the bank to fetch the money—I did not get 237l. on behalf of Swade on the day after Christmas Day as well as the 115l.—the counterfoil is 72324—I did not get the 237l. cheque—Carvallo's cheque is 72324—I have seven of them—the first is 72322, Carvallo 400l.—the counterfoil number is all right—72304 is for 300l., in my brother's favour, dated October 27th, 1882—this is the corresponding counterfoil; it has the same number—the next is 72307, November 4th—I find the next number, 250, has a corresponding counterfoil, but not the corresponding number—the last is in favour of my father, 72325, for 121l., on 18th December—this is my brother's cheque, and here is the counterfoil out of the same book—Nathan's is 72325, on December 28th—that is the last used cheque in the book—there are then a number of blank cheques—I brought the money over in English notes—I don't know whether I got any acknowledgment—I changed them in Holland as it was cheaper—I came from Amsterdam—I don't know whether there is any difficulty in getting a bank draft on London there—I agree in what has been stated, that my brother was always making loans from 1879, 1880, 1881, and 1882, and for twenty years—since Mr. Isaacs left the partnership my brother sometimes gave them the money, and since my; mother's property was sold in 1881 and 1882 I have brought the money over—it was not my mother's money before the property was sold—I brought over 800l., mostly in English notes, in 1882—there was some gold; my mother's property had been sold, but I had no idea that I should have to come here—I do not know that it struck me that I ought not to part with trust money, the property of my mother, without some acknowledgment—I never did get any acknowledgment.

LOUIS REENS . I am a cigar manufacturer of 95, Leman Street, Whitchapel—the defendant Joseph is a brother of my brother—I lent this

340l. in March, 1882, in two payments, in bank notes, which I keep at my place of business—I had lent them money six years before, which was paid—I made no entry in my books of this or the previous loan—I pressed them for payment and they repaid me the 340l., in two instalments—I charged them no interest.

Cross-examined by. MR. BESLEY. I am in a small way; I employ 14 or 16 hands at the utmost—I bank at the Central Bank, Whitechapel branch—I do not send money to the bank daily—I always keep money in the house—I had a banking account in March, 1882—I mean to tell you that I kept 340l. in my house—I received it from customers—I had been many weeks accumulating it—I was sending to the bank in March, but I only sent cheques—although I had no cheque with Reens's endorsement to show that he had had the money I took no memorandum.

MARCUS ALEXANDER REENS, JUN . (Interpreted). I am a dealer in bulbs, in Tenter Street, a place taken for myself—I only understand a few words of English—in March, 1882, I lent the defendants 93l.; I took no security, I knew them too well—I was then a dealer in cut flowers—I asked them for payment because I required it in my business—I know of Carvallo lending money.

Cross-examined by. MR. BESLEY. I know the mother and father advanced money 20 years ago—in 1879, when Mr. Isaacs went out of partnership, I came to Haarlem with my father—the Carvallos never asked for any acknowledgment of the borrowings—I hired 62, Tenter Street, Goodman's Fields, in June, 1883—I do not know whether this (produced) is one of my invoice headings, as I cannot read or write; it is one of the printed things I used to send out—M.R. is Marcus Alexander Reens—I have no "Co."—my brother-in-law, Moses Alexander, Mr. Hatton, and myself manage the Haarlem business—I do not know that we are occupying the newly-built block of warehouses there of Alexander M. Reens—I have an old pack house, a kind of shed, at 5s. a week—Alexander Marcus Reens is my father.

GEORGE FAULKNER . I am a bulb dealer, of 65, Old Street Road, and have been in the business nearly 40 years—1881 and 1882 were very bad seasons indeed—bulbs are all relatively priced and classified, and according to numbers so you buy them; they know that we pick them out and relatively price them—there are three roots here which were in my window marked 6d. each a fortnight ago, and now they are not worth 6d. a dozen; they are well to-day and gone to-morrow, and you have to throw away thousands—I have a window full which cost me 10l. which I will sell for 10s.—I always found the defendants respectable men.

Cross-examined by. MR. BESLEY. I bought Dutch bulbs of Reens in July, 1882, value 50l. or 60l., and paid 20l. down—I have the receipts at home; I have not brought them—there is sometimes a second consignment, a little better than the first—I paid 6d. each for mine—I know Mr. Legerton—I think he understands his business.

RICHARD THOMAS CHILDS . I have been 20 years in the bulb trade—there is always a certain amount of bad bulbs and of good ones—I have known the defendants many years, and always found them respectable.

Cross-examined by. MR. BESLEY. I never go to Holland to buy; we buy our bulbs at 1l. 0s. 10d. per 100—we did not give 6d. a-piece in October, 1882; we buy them in clumps—this is my last account (produced).

Joseph Reens received a good character.

GUILTY.— Judgment respited.

THIRD COURT.—Friday, January. 11th, 1884.

Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-218
VerdictGuilty > unknown; Not Guilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude; Imprisonment > hard labour

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218. JAMES EMERY (43), WILLIAM WARREN (28), and HENRY ANDREWS (18) , Stealing a warrant for the delivery of nine casks of tartaric acid, the property of James Saunders, and stealing the tartaric acid and the casks. Other Counts laying the property in Maxwell Crosby, and also in William Waters and others.

MR. GILL Prosecuted;. MR. BURNIE appeared for Emery. MR. SAUNDERS for Warren, and. MESSRS. GEOGHEGAN and. BEARD for Andrews.

CHARLES HENRY TAPLEY . I live at Willesden—I was on 8th December clerk to George James Saunders, who trades as Bacon, as a general merchant, at 14, Mincing Lane—on 8th December, about 2 o'clock in the afternoon, I put this order for the delivery of nine casks of tartaric acid to the British and Foreign Wharf into an envelope addressed to Messrs. Crosby, of New Mills, New North Road, Shoreditch—to the best of my belief I posted it—the first endorsement on the back of the order, "Deliver to Misers. Crosby and Co.," signed "W. C. Bacon," is mine—Messrs. Saunders's office closes at about 3 o'clock on Saturdays—Crosby had some powdered tartaric acid to deliver, and on Tuesday sent down saying he was short, and then inquiries were made at the British and Foreign Wharf, and the police were communicated with—I have never seen tartaric acid in sacks; it would get damp and spoil—the police showed me a sample of the tartaric acid found at the warehouse; it is similar to what we should expect to have in the nine casks—the nine casks would weigh about 2 tons 5 cwt. a-piece—the value of the lot would be about 360l.—the writing on the order to deliver to Newman's van is not in my writing—it was not on the order when I saw it.

Cross-examined by. MR. BURNIE. There are three or four makers of tartaric acid—as a rule you can tell one maker's acid from another's—these three or four make the bulk of the tartaric acid in the market—it is kept in air-tight casks; it would deliquesce away if exposed to air, but not in dry weather—it would not deliquesce unless exposed to wet, even when in powder—to the best of my belief I posted the letter myself—there was only one other letter that day—I won't swear to the matter—the only part of my writing in the document is "Messrs. Crosby, deliver to Messrs. Bacon and Co."

MAXWELL CROSBY . I live at Canonbury and carry on business as Crosby and Co., New Mills, New North Road, Shoreditch, drug grinder—I never saw this order till it was shown me at the police-court—the writing at the back of it is not mine, not is it written by my authority; it is a forgery—Warren was in my employ as general labourer seven or eight years; I don't know the other two men.

Cross-examined by. MR. BURNIE. I am practically acquainted with the property of tartaric acid—in the form of powder it would not deliquesce—tartaric acid is not deliquescent, the air does not affect it.

Cross-examined by. MR. SAUNDERS. Warren left nine years ago—my premises are similar now, they are not altered in the least.

By the. COURT. His duties would be inside.

RICHARD NEWMAN . I am a carman, of Chapel Street, Stratford—I know Andrews—on Sunday, 9th December, he spoke to me in my greengrocer's shop, which was shut, except that the door was open—he came

in from 7 to 8 in the evening, and asked me if I had a pair-horse van I could let him have to-morrow morning—I said "Yes, what sort of van do you want, sir?" he said "An open pair-horse van"—I said "What time?" he said "6 to a quarter-past in the morning"—I asked him how long he wanted it for; he said "We shall be done about 10 or 11 o'clock"—I said "Very well"—I gave my carman, Roskams, the older to get his horses ready—I saw the van when it came back on the Monday about 4 o'clock; I did not see Andrews then—he called on Tuesday night; I went to him—he came to me again on the Wednesday morning, and asked me how much the van came to; I said "12s.," which he paid me.

Cross-examined by. MR. BURNIE. I have seen the name of Newman on a glass and bottle van.

Cross-examined by. MR. BEARD. I know Andrews's father as a greengrocer and a respectable man—I don't know that Andrews works for his father; I know he lives at home with him—when I asked him how long he wanted it for he said "We shall be done about 10 or 11 o'clock"—he said he wanted it for half the day.

Re-examined. Nothing was said about a tarpaulin to me.

SIDNEY HERBERT ROSKAMS . I live at Stratford, and am a carman employed by Mr. Newman—on Sunday night, 9th December, my master spoke to me about a van, and on Monday morning, 10th December, I was in the yard about 6 o'clock—Andrews came as the clock was striking 6; I was ready for him with the two-horse van—he asked me if I was ready; I said "Yes"—he said "Come on, then;" we got into the van—he told me to drive to the Globe public-house in the Mile End Road—he did not tell me what he was going there for—it was about a 20 minutes' drive—we got down there, and saw Emery at the door—Andrews asked me if I was going to have anything to drink; I said "Yes," went inside, and then Emery called Andrews on one side—they spoke to each other; I could not hear what was said—they came back to the bar in about 5 or 10 minutes—when we got outside Warren and another man came up—the three prisoners went and talked together; I could not hear what was said, I was looking after the horses—they were about 12 yards from the van—Andrews came back, and asked me if it would make any difference if I went home and got a sheet; I said "No," and I and Andrews drove home and got a tarpaulin—as we drove down the road I asked him if he knew what he was going to fetch; he said he did not know—I got the sheet, and we drove back to the Globe—Warren and Emery and another man were there—I got down, and we all had something to drink—Andrews said "Drive across to the King's Arms;" that is in the same road, about three-quarters of a mile off on the other side of the way—Andrews and I were in the van, the others were walking—when we got to the King's Arms Andrews said "You don't want to go along with them, they will take the van; now you come and have some breakfast"—I asked him if it was all right them taking the van—he said "Yes, it is all right," they had had his van several times before—Warren and the boy got into the van, the boy driving—I cannot be certain what became of Emery, I didn't see much more of him—I walked up the Mile End Road to Wright's coffee-shop, ear Charrington's brewery, with Andrews; we had breakfast, that was a little after 10 o'clock, I should think—we came out and walked up to Gardener's, at the corner of Leman Street, the direction the van had gone, and we could not see the van;

we looked in the windows and then walked back again—before they went away Emery had said they were going to get four tons of pitch to take to Stratford—we were at the corner by Gardener's at 11 o'clock—we went in the Hospital Tavern, at the corner, and then back to Gardener's again—several times I said to Andrews "The van is a long time going"—I thought we had better go to the police-station—he said "Don't; you need not fear, they will be all right"—then we walked back to Stepney Green, and turned round, and Andrews said "There he is," pointing to Emery standing on the pavement by himself—Andrews went and spoke to him, and then I walked up and asked him where the horses were—he said they would be back in about 20 minutes, then he went away, and I and Andrews walked up and down, and in the best part of an hour the van came back with Warren and Emery and another man in it—there was nothing in the van but some powder dust and the sheet, which had been rolled up—the dust was a yellowish colour—the people got out of the van; we went into a public-house—I and Andrews had had our dinners before the van came back, about 1 o'clock—after the van came back Emery gave me 5s., saying "There is something for yourself for waiting about"—he said to Andrews he would see him to-night at the Greyhound, in West Ham Lane, and he would probably want the van in a day or two—I and Andrews got on the van and drove home—I afterwards gave evidence at the police-court—I there made a statement about going to the wharf.

Cross-examined by. MR. BURNIE. Inspector Abberline had charge of the case at the police-court—he interrupted me several times when I was giving my evidence and said it was not what I had said to him—I believe I said before the Magistrate that the men went and talked together—I could not swear it, but I could swear they did do so—Wright's coffee-house is about a mile from the King's Arms, about 20 minutes' walk—we got there about a quarter-past 10 o'clock; we left the Globe a little before 5 minutes to 10 o'clock—I am quite sure Emery was not with us at Wright's—I have never carted pitch, and can't say whether pitch powder is yellow.

Cross-examined by. MR. SAUNDERS. They told me they were going to get the pitch from Hermitage Wharf, as I understood them—I don't know where they did go—I am quite sure Warren was one of those who went away with the van.

Cross-examined by. MR. BEARD. I did not know Andrews before—I had seen him before—he does not work at the same dock as myself—I fetched coals from Spalls's a year ago—his father is a greengrocer—greengrocers let out their vans for removals—when I got uneasy he said "They have had my horse and van several times"—I did not see Emery give Andrews any money; I could not say he did not.

GEORGE DWYER . I am a labourer employed at the British and Foreign Wharf—on Monday morning, 10th December, I was on the third floor there—Emery came—I let a bag down and he put this order in its present state with "Deliver to Newman's van" on it into the bag—I handed the order to Smith, the foreman, and assisted in loading the van with nine casks of tartaric acid—when it was loaded Emery signed the book.

Cross-examined by. MR. BURNIE. This was about 10 o'clock, or a little earlier—when the bell rings I look through the loophole—I had not seen

Emery before to my knowledge—I was about 24 feet from him—I saw him just while the order was being put into the bag—I saw him sign the book in the office—I hare got the book—I said at the police-court that I recognised him by his clothes—I would not see him for more than two or three minutes altogether—I recognise him by his complexion and features as well—I wrote Newman under the heading "Conveyance"—Emery wrote "J. Jarvis"—I did not see the van—I assisted to load the nine casks from the loophole.

Cross-examined by. MR. SAUNDERS. I saw no one besides Emery.

Re-examined. I got the name Newman, from the back of the order—the van backed up to the loophole—I looked through—I did not notice whether it was a two-horse van—when loaded I went downstairs into the office in which the man who signs comes.

By. MR. SAUNDERS. Another labourer, Taylor, assisted me to load the van, he is not here—no one else helped to load it.

JAMES WILLIAM SMITH . I am warehouse keeper at the British and Foreign Steam Wharf—on Monday, the 10th December, about 10 a.m., Dwyer brought me this order—I ordered him and another man to get the casks out for delivery, I then went to the loophole and called out "New-man's van"—I asked the carman how many he would take out of the nine—the carman is not in the dock—nine casks were delivered—I saw the name Newman in front of the van—I could not speak to either of the three prisoners.

Cross-examined by. MR. SAUNDERS. There was one man with the van and he is not in the dock.

By the. JURY. The loophole is about 5 feet wide, with a small platform outside and a crane—I was not there when the book was signed.

CHARLES OLIVER . I am a house agent, of 91, Malmesbury Road, Bow—on Wednesday evening, 12th December, Emery came to my place; he gave the name of Edgar, and said he wanted to take a warehouse in Audrey Street, Hackney Road, which I had to let, as a quarterly tenant—I said that I did not know anything of him, and could not accept him as a quarterly tenant, but for the present would accept him as a weekly tenant—he paid me 10s., the first week's rent, as deposit—I gave him an order to procure the key—I saw that order at the police-court—the next I head was from Abberline, who called on Wednesday evening between 6 and 7, and I saw Abberline again on the Thursday about the same time.

Cross-examined by. MR. BURNIE. He gave the name of James Edgar, he did not mention the words "and Co."—it was between 6 and 7 in the evening.

JANE PARRY . I am a widow, living at Boston Street, Hackney Road—Emery came and inquired about the workshop to let in Audrey Street—I gave him this order to the landlord and collector, and he afterwards came to me with this note from Mr. Oliver, and I gave him the key—I am the housekeeper—about a quarter to 12 the morning after I gave the key, it must have been Thursday, I saw a vehicle, a small van, outside the ware-house; there were two men with it—I did not take sufficient notice of them to say if I see them here now—I saw them lifting something out of the vehicle—about 2 o'clock Emery came to me to borrow a broom to sweep the floor to put some goods there—I gave it to him—the same day in the evening Abberline came—Emery did not tell me his name.

Cross-examined by. MR. BURNIE. Emery came more than once before I give him the paper—he first came some considerable time before, it might have been in November, I could not say for certain—I could not be sure if I gave him the name and address of the landlord and collector the second time he called, and then he brought the note from Mr. Oliver—I said before the Magistrate, speaking of when the two men came, "I did not see Emery there."

CHARLES PETERS . I am a carman and fruiterer, and let out horses and vans at 375, Hackney Road—Emery hired a trap from me on Thursday, 13th December, about 10.30—he said he wanted a horse and van to go to the docks—he said he had taken a place at the back of Goldsmith's Road, and that he should be three or four hours—he gave me the name of Edgar and Co.—he gave me a card, which I have mislaid—he had a cob and light van about 10 o'clock or 10.30, and drove it away himself—the police brought them back to me with two plates of the springs broken—I called the attention of the police to it.

Cross-examined by. MR. BURNIE. It would hold 5 cwt. or half a ton at a push—the police brought it back about 8 o'clock in the evening.

Re-examined. Anything over half a ton would break the springs, I should think.

FREDERICK ABBERLINE (Detective Inspector H). On Tuesday, 11th December, this order was shown to me, and on examining it I found the name of Newman on it—I worked on that clue, exhausted the Newmans in the Directory, and eventually found there was a Newman at Stratford, where I caused inquiries to be made—as the result I saw Andrews on Wednesday, the 12th, about 5 o'clock in the evening, at his father's greengrocer's shop in Abbey Street, West Ham—I said "I am an inspector of police, and this is Sergeant Foster," he was with me; "I have called on you with reference to nine casks of tartaric acid which were stolen from the British and Foreign Wharf, Lower East Smithfield, on Monday last, and we have ascertained that you hired Newman's van, and we are also told that you kept the carman in conversation whilst the van was driven away and emptied of its contents"—he said "Well, I will tell you all I know of it. I met a man who I know by seeing him occasionally about here in the Bow Road on Sunday evening, about 5 o'clock, and he asked me if I could get him a two-horse van; I said I would try. I found that I could get a van, and I went back to the Globe public-house in the Bow Road some hours after and told him that I could get him a van; he then told me to bring it up to the same public-house about 7 o'clock the next morning. The next morning I went up to the public-house with the carman about 7 o'clock, and there we saw the man, and after sitting some little time two other men came in and we had something to drink. Some time after we were told to drive up to the King's Arms in the Mile End Road; we went up to the King's Arms, and whilst I and the carman were inside having something to drink, the men got up in the van and drove it away. That is all I know about it. I and the carman went up and down the Whitechapel Road till about 2 o'clock, when we saw the van and the men with it"—I said "Well, that is a very different account to what the carman gave of it, and I shall have to detain you at present until I make some further inquiries"—he said "I will take you round to where the man lives, if you will go with me"—I and Foster accompanied him to 33, Market Street, 150 or 200 yards from his

own house—he knocked at the door; a man came to the door—I was not near enough to hear what was said—he came back to me and said "The man is not at home; they call the man Jack. but I believe his name is Emery"—he went back to his father's house; I allowed him to have some refreshment—he asked to be allowed to walk up to Leman Street, as he thought he might very likely run against the man who engaged him on Monday night—we walked from West Ham to Leman Street, and on the way he said "One of the men had a sandy moustache and weak eyes," and pointed to a man passing us and said he somewhat resembled Emery—he was taken to the station and detained—on the Thursday I, Foster, and Fordham kept on the look-out—we were not together—I sent them to keep observation on certain districts, and later on I saw Emery and Warren at Leman Street Police-station—in my presence four keys were taken from Emery, three on a bunch and this large one separate, and this piece of paper with the name Oliver on it—I went at once to Mr. Oliver, and from what he told me I went to a warehouse in Audrey Street—I unlocked the door with the key found on Emery, and in the warehouse I found 24 sacks and sugar bags containing tartaric acid, a little over two tons—the only other things in the warehouse were a new scoop and an old tarpaulin—I had it removed to Leman Street Police-station—I produce some of the tartaric acid—some of the sacks were quite damp at the bottom; we had to have it emptied into dry sacks—I have no acid here from the bottom of the van.

Cross-examined by. MR. BEARD. I spoke to him straight off, and when I had finished he said "I will tell you all I know"—I took a note immediately after—the man we met he said was like Emery; he did not say it was him—I did not speak to that man—I have not seen the foreman—I thought Warren was the man with weak eyes and fair moustache—he said he had done jobs for Jack before—he did not say he should have used his father's cart but it was too small—I have made inquiry about young Andrews; his father is a very respectable greengrocer, and the prisoner has borne a good character as far as I know.

GEORGE FOSTER (Detective Sergeant H). Acting on instructions, on Thursday, 13th December, I was with Fordham at Baker's Row, Whitechapel—I saw Emery, Warren, and another man drive up in Mr. Peters's van about 3 o'clock p.m. to the Weaver's Arms public-house—as they got out I caught hold of the one not in custody by the collar, and with the other hand caught hold of Warren by the coat-tail and trousers legs—Fordham took the other man—I told Warren I was going to take him in custody for being concerned with other persons not in custody in stealing nine casks of tartaric acid from the British and Foreign Wharf, on Monday, by a forged order—he made no answer—I took him to the station, and on searching him found a ball of string—I afterwards went with Abberline to Oliver's, and from Oliver's to the warehouse, and assisted in removing the goods found there—the sugar bags in which tartaric acid was were tied up with the same kind of string.

Cross-examined by. MR. SAUNDERS. There is nothing particular about the string.

BENJAMIN FORDHAM (Detective E). On 13th December I was with Foster in Baker's Row—we saw Emery driving this cob and small van up to the Weaver's Arms and pull up there—I took Emery, and said "You will be charged with being concerned with another in stealing

nine casks of tartaric acid from the British and Foreign Wharf last Monday"—he said "I don't know what you mean; I don't know anything about that; I ought to have drawn some pitch last Monday from the Hermitage Wharf, but I got drunk and did not do it"—this is the note I took at the time—I took him to the station, searched him, and the key that opened the warehouse was found on him, and the scrap of paper—I was with Abberline when he went to the warehouse and found the property there—this is a sample that I took out of one of the bags found there.

Cross-examined by. MR. BURNIE. On the way to the station he said "I ought to have drawn some pitch on the Monday."

By the. COURT. He did not say that in answer to any question.

Cross-examined by. MR. BEARD. I told Emery that Andrews was in custody—I would not be sure if Emery said, referring to Andrews, "Poor boy, he knows nothing of it"—he may have said it, I won't say he did not.

The Prisoners' Statements before the Magistrate. Emery says:."I wish to say that I was never down at the wharf, and don't know where the British and Foreign Wharf is." Warren says:."I was present with Emery when he made the arrangement for the van to draw away four tons of pitch on the Monday, and I was to be with him to help him unload and deliver it." Andrews says:."I am not guilty; I will reserve my defence."

Andrews received a good character.



EMERY then. PLEADED GUILTYto a conviction of felony at this Court in September. 1878.— Five Years' Penal Servitude. WARREN— Two Years' Hard Labour.

The Jury expressed their appreciation of the conduct of the police, and the Court highly commended Inspector Abberline, and Sergeants Foster and Fordham.

OLD COURT.—Monday, January. 14th, Tuesday. 15th, Wednesday. 16th, Thursday. 17th, Friday. 18th, and Saturday. 19th, 1884.

Before Mr. Justice Hawkins.

7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-219
VerdictGuilty > insane
SentenceImprisonment > insanity

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219. ANNIE PLAYER (25) was indicted for the wilful murder of William Player.


KARL LOBAU . I am a tailor, and live at 22, Bolton Road, Notting Hill—the prisoner and her husband lived in that house with their two children, one about three and a half and a baby about seven months—on the afternoon of 27th November, about 3 o'clock, I was looking through my window on the first floor front, and saw the baby fall down from the window above into the roadway about two feet from the kerb stone—I ran down, but when I got down the father had picked it up—I heard screams from the window above, looked up, and saw the prisoner hanging out of the window on the window sill—I at once ran upstairs, and with assistance dragged her back into the room—she was then insensible—after she came to herself she said she was very sorry for what had occurred, but she did not know what she was doing—a constable came and she was taken into custody—I never knew her husband and her to quarrel

except that day, just a few minutes before I saw the child come out of the window—I could not understand the words from my room—I heard the husband leave the house—the roadway is about 12 feet from the front wall of the house; the area is about four feet, and the kerb about six feet—the window-sill is about three feet to three and a half feet.

Cross-examined. I saw Dominic King there—I heard the prisoner screaming—King was in my room—he was holding up her feet to prevent her from falling—she was screaming the whole of the time, and in a very excited state.

DOMINIC KING . On the afternoon of 27th November I was in the room with Lobar—I heard a quarrel and noise overhead, and saw the child falling—I heard screams, looked out of the window, and saw the prisoner hanging from the window above with her legs down—I got my hands under her feet, and held her legs to prevent her falling, till she was dragged in.

AMELIA NEWBY . On 27th November I was at work at 22, Bolton Road—I heard the screams and saw the prisoner's baby lying in the road—I saw it picked up—it was fully dressed—I had known the prisoner about three weeks—she seemed a very unhappy sort of woman—she was very kind to the children—the baby was not dead—it was carried to the hospital; it cried going along.

THOMAS BRIGGS (Policeman E. 87). On 27th November I went to the prisoner's room on the second floor, and found her lying on the floor, excited and throwing her arms about—her husband was in the room—Lobau said that the prisoner had thrown the child from the window and attempted to throw herself out, and he with others prevented her—she made no reply—on the way to the station she said, "It is all through him I have done this"—the child was taken to St. Mary's Hospital.

FREDERICK ARTHUR ROGERS I am house surgeon at St. Mary's Hospital—about a quarter to 4 on the afternoon of 27th November the child was brought there by Newby and Briggs—there was a bruise on to right eye, and depression of the forehead and fracture of the bone—it remained in the hospital till it died on the 29th from the injuries it had received.

The Prisoner's Statement before the Magistrate."I did not have any intention, to throw my baby out, nor yet to do away with it; I was in the habit of looking out of the window with the baby in my arms."

PHILIP FRANCIS GILBERT . I am surgeon to H.M. Gaol, Clerkenwell—the prisoner has been confined there from the time of her arrest to the present time—at first she was nervous and depressed, but had no actual signs of insanity up to 2nd January—on 3rd January she attempted to commit suicide by throwing herself over the banisters down the stairs—on 4th January she again attempted to commit suicide by setting fire to her clothes and putting her head over the flames, and last night she attempted to strangle herself—I believe her to be a person of unsound mind, incapable of knowing the nature and quality of the act she committed—I think she was so at the time this matter occurred—at times she is quite rational—she has been under Dr. Orange and Dr. Gower on two or three occasions—I reported to them the symptoms I saw.

Cross-examined. >From the examination I made of her I think she has been of unsound mind for some time.

DR. WILLIAM ORANGE . I have been 14 years medical superintendent of Broadmoor Criminal Lunatic Asylum, and connected with the asylum 21 years—by instructions of the Solicitor to the Treasury I visited the prisoner on two occasions, once with Dr. Gower, and once separately—I inquired into the symptoms from the medical officer of the gaol, and formed a clear opinion that she was of unsound mind; that she was not under the guidance of sound reason at the time she committed the act; that when she committed it she did not know the nature and quality of it in the sense in which I believe the law means those words—she is decidedly a proper person to be confined in a lunatic asylum and placed under proper care and treatment with a view to her recovery.

GUILTY of the act charged, but insane at the time she did it. — To be detained in custody as a criminal lunatic until Her Majesty's pleasure be known.

7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-220
VerdictMiscellaneous > no agreement

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220. WILLIAM WOOLF (24) and EDWARD BONDURAND (24) were indicted (under the 46th Vic., c.3, the Explosives Act of 1883) for feloniously having under their control, not for a lawful object, an explosive substance under such circumstances as to give rise to a reasonable suspicion that it was not for a lawful object. Other Counts varying the form of charge.

THE SOLICITOR-GENERAL, with. MESSRS. POLAND, DANKWERTZ and. H.S. WRIGHT Prosecuted;. MESSRS. KEITH FRITH and. BROUN defended Bondurand; Woolf defended himself.

The Jury in this case being unable to agree, were, after five hours and a half's deliberation, discharged without returning any verdict, and the case was post-poned to the next Session.

NEW COURT.—Monday, January. 14th, 1884.

Before Mr. Recorder.

7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-221
VerdictGuilty > unknown; Not Guilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour; Imprisonment > hard labour

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221. DAVID DONOVAN (30), WILLIAM MCCARTHY (20), TIMOTHY DONOHUE (22), JEREMIAH MCCARTHY (21), and JOHN SULLIVAN (22) , Robbery with violence on Alfred Tom Morse, and stealing part of a watch chain, his property.

MR. HICKS Prosecuted;. MR. BURNIE appeared for Donovan, and. MESSRS. FRITH and. BLACKWELL for Jeremiah McCarthy.

ALFRED TOM MORSE . I live at St. Ethel burgh, Leytonstone, and am a collar manufacturer at Great Alie Street, Whitechapel—I have been about two years in the neighbourhood—on Boxing Day, about 4 p.m., I was going to my office from Mansell Street, and was on the pavement—some one tapped me on my left shoulder behind—I turned round and saw Donovan and Donohue—one held my right shoulder and the other hustled me on the other side—William McCarthy snatched my chain—I was dressed as I am now—he took hold of my left hand, taking a piece of skin off one of the fingers, put in his right hand, and took hold of my chain—part was hanging and part was on the watch, the middle part having been snatched away—they all ran down the pavement—I tried to go after them; I said "That man has got my watch," as I thought at that time it was gone—Donovan took hold of my left shoulder, Donohue hustled me at my right side; I broke from them, and was stopped by John Sullivan about three yards off on the pavement, who rushed against me bodily and butted me—I broke from him, and was

stopped in the centre of the road by another man not here—I broke from him, and was caught by two others on the pavement, one of whom was Jeremiah McCarthy—at that time I saw William McCarthy about half way down the street; he stopped, turned round, and looked at me—I said "That man has got my watch" two or three times, nothing more than that—two or three other men followed him down, I went into my office, stopped a few minutes, came out, and went down Mansell Street, and saw a policeman in Commercial Street—I told him, and he persuaded me to go to Leman Street Police-station, where I saw Sergeant Upright in the street about 7 or a little before, and gave a description of all the men as nearly as I could—I went with him that same evening in search of the men, and we went to some public-houses, at one of which, I think the Blue Anchor, I pointed out Donovan and Donohue to Enright—that was about 8 o'clock—they were in the bar with a lot of others—whilst waiting for more police one of the prisoners came outside (we were standing outside), and I pointed him out, and the two were taken—I saw William McCarthy in another public-house with a lot of other men, and pointed him out as the man who snatched the chain, and he was taken also—on the 27th I saw Jeremiah McCarthy at Leman Street Station with eight or nine others—I pointed him out, and he was charged—I saw Sullivan the next Saturday morning, the 29th, at the station among 10 or 12 others—there were two others there who I knew by sight as well—I pointed out Sullivan as the third man who stopped me—I had seen William McCarthy before about the streets and in Great Alie Street—I have seen all the prisoners before at various times—I know their faces by sight—I am positive they are the five men who so dealt with me on that night—it took about a minute.

Cross-examined by. MR. BURNIE. It was a slightly foggy afternoon; a slight white mist; I cannot say it was getting dark—I am not prepared to swear it was not—the whole affair only lasted about a minute—Donovan came out by himself, and was then taken in custody—there might have been nine or ten concerned in this altogether.

Cross-examined by. MR. KEITH FRITH. I was a teetotaller—I had had a cup of tea—I did not pick out Jeremiah McCarthy that night—I saw him at the station with a number of others of various ages, most of them young—no one bore any resemblance to him—I was at the Thames Police-court when a number o£ witnesses were called—I could not tell their names—I don't know if John McCarthy, James Funnell, the land-lord of the Ship and Star, or Flewitt were called—I cannot tell what kind of a hat Jeremiah McCarthy was wearing; it was rather a busy time.

Cross-examined by. WILLIAM MCCARTHY. I was never intoxicated in my life—I was not leaning on the desk at the police-court intoxicated—you stopped and looked round as you ran down the pavement—there was no one in the street at that time except your gang—I have seen you before—you were apprehended about 7 or 8 o'clock at a public-house; I do not know the name.

Cross-examined by Donohue. This was close by Halfmoon Passage, where I think you came from—I have seen you before.

Re-examined. I have seen them all repeatedly for two years—I lived in the same street for 16 months—Donovan and Donohue were not together in the public-house.

HENRY PAYNE (Policeman H. 184). I received information of this robbery, and on 29th December I saw Sullivan in Cable Street, and said I should take him to the station and charge him for some watch robbery—I didn't know exactly what it was I was told to apprehend him for—I took McCarthy on the 27th—I told him the charge—Sullivan said he knew nothing about it; he had been with his friends in Pearl Street since the Monday night he came from the Thames Police-court—he was turned over to Detective Enright—I took Jeremiah McCarthy about 6 o'clock on the 27th in Cable Street—I told him that I was told to arrest him on some watch job on the 26th—I didn't know where the robbery occurred or what time it was—he said he could prove he was innocent; he was boxing at the Ship and Star, in the Minories, and he received fire shillings from the landlord and a half-crown was left at the bar for drink—I told Sullivan the day this happened—Cable Street and Mansell Street are close to Alie Street.

Cross-examined by. MR. FRITH. I mentioned the date, and he at once said he had been boxing at the Bull and Star, or Ship and Star, and the landlord could prove it—at the police-court he called Mr. George Funnel!, the landlord of the-Ship and Star, who gave evidence on his behalf; also Flewitt, John McCarthy, and Andrews—Funnell is the son of Detective Inspector Funnell.

PATRICK ENRIGHT (Detective Sergeant H.) On December 26th Morse came to the station and made a communication to me, and gave me a description of certain men, about 8 o'clock—we went to the Blue Anchor public-house, Cable Street, and looked in; he made a communication to me, in consequence of which we stood outside the door—shortly afterwards Donovan came out—Morse said something to me, and I stopped Donovan and told him he would be charged with being concerned with others in stealing a portion of a chain from that gentleman, Mr. Morse, on that afternoon—he said "I know nothing about it"—I handed him over to the uniform officer—I stopped there and called Donohue out by saying "I want to speak to you a minute"—Mr. Morse said "That is the other man"—I told him the charge, and the time at which it was said it occurred—he said "I am innocent"—he was taken to the station—both of them were searched—nothing was found except a pocket-knife and a few coppers—I afterwards went with Mr. Morse to the Eagle Brewery public-house, about 15 yards off—William McCarthy was standing at the bar amongst others, chatting together—Mr. Morse pointed him out as one of the men—I told him the charge—he said "I am innocent"—I took him to the station—when charged at the station they still persisted in their innocence—Donovan said "I had been in the Brown Bear from 4 o'clock to 8 o'clock in the evening"—I had been in the neighbourhood that day, I had not seen any of the prisoners—all these localities are within five minutes' walk of Alie Street—on the Thursday following I saw Jeremiah McCarthy at the station; he was detained, and I sent for the prosecutor—he was placed among eight or nine others, and when the prosecutor came, without hesitation he identified him—I saw John Sullivan on the Friday evening—the prosecutor was sent for—it was 10 or 10.30 on Saturday morning I saw him there—he was placed among 9 or 10 others—the prosecutor at once identified him—he said he was one of the men who knocked him about and butted him in the stomach—he was charged—he said nothing to me—he said he could bring witnesses to

prove his innocence—Jeremiah McCarthy when pointed out, said he was innocent.

Cross-examined by. MR. BURNIE. Donovan told me he had been at the Brown Bear—I was present at the examination before the Magistrate when Mr. and Mrs. Foley were called from the Brown Bear.

Cross-examined by. MR. FRITH. I get persons as nearly the same height, and resembling his general appearance, as I can, when a man is to be identified, to give him fair play—we cannot get people just the same—I did not hear the last constable give his evidence.

Cross-examined by William McCarthy. It was 8 o'clock, or shortly after, when I apprehended you—you were not with any of the other prisoners at the Eagle—I charged you with stealing a portion of a gold chain from Mr. Morse—you said you were innocent—I did not ask you what you were.

The Prisoners' Statements before the Magistrate. William McCarthy says:."I am not guilty." Donohue says:."On the night we were taken into custody the prosecutor said that Donovan held him by his shoulder, McCarthy took his watch, and I stood on the pavement. On the following morning he said that I hustled him on the right side. The prosecutor was not, to the best of my opinion, sober when charging us at the station."

Jeremiah McCarthy says:."I am not guilty." Sullivan says:."At the station the prosecutor said I was standing on the kerb. The detective said 'He tried to stop you, didn't he?' The prosecutor said 'Yes, he did.' On the Monday morning at this Court the prosecutor said that I butted him."

Witnesses for Donovan.

MARY FOLEY . I am the wife of Michael Foley, dock labourer, of 76, Cable Street—on 26th December I went to the Brown Bear, Leman Street with my husband at 3 o'clock—I saw Donovan standing at the bar—we stopped there from 3 to 6.30, Donovan was there all the time—we were standing at the bar and then sitting down with one woman between us—he did not leave the Brown Bear.

Cross-examined. I first gave evidence at the police-court last Tuesday week—his mother came down for me—there were many people in the Brown Bear that evening going in and out—my husband went out two or three times, I did not go out at all—I watched Donovan—I was talking to him for a good bit—I don't remember if I said at the police-court "I was not watching him the whole time"—he did not go out, and when I left I left him there—I and my husband went home together—at 6.30 it was dark and the lights were alight—Donovan does not live in our house, he lives in Glass House Buildings—that is a good bit off Alie Street—nobody told me about this evening—I had not spoken about it to any one—his mother told me he was locked up on boxing night—I said "Is it for a fight?"—she said "No, for a chain"—I said "He could not have done it, he was in the house with me"—I did not ask her what time it was—she did not say what day nor what time of day.

MICHAEL FOLEY . I am the last witness's husband and a dock labourer—on 26th December I went with her to the Brown Bear—Donovan was there when we went in between 2 and 3 o'clock—we stopped some hours till late in the evening—he was there all the time—I went out two or

three times, my wife remained in the whole time—I did not see Donovan go out at all.

Cross-examined. My wife heard from a friend next morning that he was in trouble and she told me—she did not tell me at what time the robbery had occurred or where it was—I knew it was Boxing Day—I did not know the robbery took place about 4 o'clock—I had not seen Donovan the day before nor the day before that.

GERTRUDE ELLEN ZUSCHLAG . I keep the Brown Bear, Leman Street—on the afternoon of Boxing Day I was in the bar from 1.30 till a little after 5—I saw Donovan there and served him—I cannot say if he was there all the time or whether he was there when I left the bar at 5 o'clock, to the best of my belief he was.

Cross-examined. I could not speak to his being in the house at any particular time between 3 and 5 o'clock.

Witnesses for Jeremiah McCarthy.

GEORGE FUNNELL . I am keeper of the Ship and Star, Sparrow Court, Minories—my father is Detective Inspector Funnell—on Boxing Day Jeremiah McCarthy was in my house from 2 o'clock to 7 with four or five others—I will swear that he did not go out of the house—my bar is a horseshoe one, so that the landlord or barman could have a full view of persons sitting in the bar—I had a sparring bout there, and I paid him 5s. to come and spar, and 2s. 6d. was left at the bar for him to drink, by one of the customers—I went to the police-court and was bound over on the following Thursday—three days had then elapsed—that was not the day after Boxing Day, it was the second hearing, January 3rd.

Cross-examined. He had not been boxing, but the boxing was to take place in the evening—I had the barman and my wife to assist me in the bar—I was in the bar the whole time—I had to stop it because they got singing—10 or 12 persons were in the bar—my house is about seven minutes from Great Alie Street—I had my eye on him all the time and never missed him—there were about seven of them, and I was getting out of temper with them because they wanted to dance—McCarthy came about twice a week of an evening to box—he went away to his tea and came back about 8.30, and stayed the whole evening.

Re-examined. The public-houses are closed on Christmas Day from 3 to 6 as on Sundays—I noticed nothing extraordinary in his manner, or any indication that he was frightened, but the reverse, for he was rather jolly.

JOHN MCCARTHY . I am a labourer, of 12, Well close Square—Jeremiah McCarthy is my brother—he is not the brother of William McCarthy—as far as I know he knows none of the other prisoners—I called for my brother on Boxing Day about 1 o'clock or a little after, and we went to the Ship and Star and met two friends, Flewitt and Hudsby—we stayed there till half-past 1 and then went home to tea—my brother did not leave my company all that time—we came back at 8.30 and stayed there till 12 o'clock, and he was in the house the whole time.

HARRY ANDREWS . I am a cabinet maker, of 7, Artichoke Hill—I was at the Ship and Star on Boxing Day in the afternoon—I had an appointment to meet George Flewitt there and John McCarthy, Daniel Sullivan, and the prisoner Jeremiah—I went in about 1.20 and they came in about 1.30—they remained till 7 o'clock and then went home to have some tea,

but we remained—Jeremiah McCarthy was not out of my sight from 1.30 to 7, because I was sitting on a settle talking to him—I might have got up to light a cigar.

Cross-examined. We were all sober—I don't suppose we had 10 or 12 pots of beer between the lot of us, and there were others there who we reached the pot to.

GEORGE FLEWITT . I am a fish porter, of 17, New Square, Minories—I saw Jeremiah McCarthy on Boxing Day at the Ship and Star, as nearly as I can say about 1.30, when he came in with his brother John and Dan. Sullivan—I had an arrangement to meet somebody—Harry Andrews was with me—he was in my sight from that time till 7 o'clock, and then we all went to tea—they went away, and I went with Andrews to his place, and returned at 8 o'clock and remained till closing time.

Witness for William McCarthy.

WILLIAM BUDDING . I live at 109, Brick Lane—I was with William McCarthy on Boxing Day from 2 o'clock till 4.30, when we sat down and had tea together at my lodging—we remained there till about 5 o'clock and then went to the Laurel Tree and had something to drink.

Cross-examined. I know Patrick Murphy and Timothy Long—they lodge in the same place—they are not here—I was at the police-court, but could not get in—William McCarthy was sitting down; he was not asleep—I only went out for two or three minutes once, and went back again—I didn't go into Alie Street that day—I don't know it perfectly—the place was more than three-parts full when we went out at 4.30—the door is always open, and people are passing in and out—I mean that we were sitting down from 2 o'clock till 4.30 and speaking to several people—I went out to the Laurel Tree to get some beer, but William McCarthy did not go out to get any.

Witness for Donohue.

JEREMIAH DONOHUE . I am Timothy Donohue's brother, and lodge at 1, North East Passage, Cable Street—I came out at 12 o'clock in the day on Boxing Day, and saw my father in the public-house—I had two-pennyworth of rum—I was in the lodging-house again at 2 o'clock, when my brother came in and went to sleep—he slept a good two hours and a half to my knowledge—he then went out, and I did not know what became of him till the landlord came and told me he was locked up.

Cross-examined. I went back to the lodgings to sit down, but not to have a nap; he went to sleep because he had had a good deal of drink—the potman of the Blue Anchor came in with him—I was in the Blue Anchor with him about 2.30; that is 200 or 300 yards from Alie Street—I had my eye on my brother the whole time; there was no clock there—I didn't see my brother go out, but I knew he was there just before, and I missed him about 5.30—whether he was asleep or not he was lying on a form, and I believed he was asleep; he was snoring—the potman and two other men were also asleep—I was sitting on the opposite form and dozed off, and when I awoke he was gone.

FREDERICK CORNELL . I am potman at the Blue Anchor—I know Donovan, he was in my company on Boxing Day from about 9 a.m. till 2 or 2.30 p.m.—we were drinking together in the Blue Anchor; we then left and went to a lodging-house where I live, and I slept till 4 or 4.30—he was asleep too—I then got up and had a wash, and asked him if he

was coming—I got no answer from him; it was then about 4.55 or 5 o'clock.

Cross-examined. I woke up about 4.30—I had to be at work at 5 o'clock—I am not aware that the landlord was going to get rid of me—I had not to clean pots that day, but had to go on errands—I have never been locked up in my life—I did not get a month at the Thames Police-court three years ago.

Witnesses for Sullivan.

MARY PIGGOTT . I am married and live at Grown Court, Little Bury Street—I have known Sullivan a good while; I knew his father and mother—he was at my place on Boxing Day from the morning till about 4 p.m., when he got up and went into the yard partly undressed; he came back again and sat down in the room; my son was there and remained with him till 8 o'clock, when he and my son went out together.

Cross-examined. I was indoors all Boxing Day; I never went beyond the yard—my son's room is upstairs—I sleep in the same room, but I have got two rooms; I have no kitchen; my rooms are one over the other—those are all the rooms there are in the house; the stairs are near the back door—I had a fire upstairs during the day, and lived up there—I had my dinner upstairs—my son and Sullivan were lying in bed—we had dinner and tea together between 6 and 7 o'clock.

DAVID PIGGOTT . I am the son of the last witness—on Boxing Day I was in bed from 10 a.m. till 4.30 p.m., and John Sullivan was with me.

Cross-examined. I first heard that he was in custody on Saturday evening, the day he was taken, but did not hear what it was for—I heard on the Sunday morning that this was on Boxing Day, I didn't know at what time—we were in a public-house at 4 o'clock in the morning, and we went home and went to bed—I don't know what time the robbery took place—I didn't hear that it was about 5 o'clock till I went to the police-court—I know now that it was between 4 and 5 o'clock—I didn't hear that it was just before 5 o'clock—I woke up during the day, but did not get up till 4.30—I might have sat up a couple of times during the day but I did not get up—I had been drinking and it was holiday time—I didn't take much notice of the clock.

MARGARET PIGGOTT . I am sister to the last witness—I was at my mother's house on Boxing Day—we were enjoying ourselves on Christmas night and remained there very late—my brother and John Sullivan went out some part of the morning and returned at 9.35—my brother went to bed, and Sullivan went to bed shortly afterwards, and remained there till after 4 o'clock, when they went out—we all had tea together, and they remained indoors till 8 o'clock at night.

Cross-examined. It was five or ten minutes past 4 when he got up, he had never left the house—I saw Mrs. Williams there, I don't know what time she came in—I heard her give her evidence at the police-court—she said she came to my mother at 4 o'clock—I have heard my brother say that he got up at 4.30—Sullivan got up before him—I was in the house the whole time, and never went out except into the back yard.

MARY WILLIAMS . I am married—Jeremiah Sullivan is my brother—on Boxing Day I went to my friend Mr. Stukey, and my brother was there at five minutes to 4—he got up and went down the yard—he was dressed, in the same clothes he has on now—I remained till 7, and left him there.

Cross-examined. Before I went to the police-court I had not heard what time the robbery was said to have been committed—I went there to say the same that I say now.

WILLIAMS. I am a brother of the last witness, I was with her on Boxing Day at Mr. Piggott's, in Commercial Street, I dare say it was 4 o'clock when I got there—Sullivan had just got out of bed, he had his trousers on—I remained there till 7.

Cross-examined. I did not know what time the robbery was committed, I was not at the police-court—I had heard that it was on Boxing Day, but did not know whether it was morning or night—I heard of it in the road—Great Alie Street is three-quarters of a mile from Pickett Street—I know Sullivan well, he generally wears that blue guernsey and scarf; he had the guernsey on then, but no handkerchief, as it was being washed—I didn't see him when he was dressed, he was cleaning his boots at that time.

McCarthy's Defence. Morse says that after snatching his chain I ran away and then stopped. Is it likely that I should stop if I had his property? I should get away as quick as I could. I am innocent. I was having my tea at that time. He cannot swear to three of us at the same time, for he says it was all done in an instant.

Donohue's Defence. I was asleep, he asked me to come out, I got up and washed my face and went and had a cup of tea, and went to the Blue Anchor and had a drop, and knew no more till the detective came and took me; if I was accused of murder it would be just the same, I know no more about it than you do. I was asleep at the time.

Sullivan's Defence. I know nothing of the robbery. I never saw the man before in my life.



DONOVAN received a good character.— Three Months' Hard Labour.

DONOHUE†and. MCCARTHY†.— Nine Months' Hard Labour each.

7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-222
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

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222. JOHN DAVIS (20) , Stealing 4l., the money of William Rainbow.

MR. SAUNDERS Prosecuted;. MR. BLACKWELL Defended.

CHARLES MILES . I live at 19, Granville Terrace, Cricklewood, and am in the service of Mr. Rainbow, a butcher—on 16th November, about 2 p.m., I was in the shop and gave a man change for a sovereign from the till, and he left, and the prisoner then drove up with a horse and trap and beckoned to me—I went out; he said "What does your bone man give for bones per hundred?"and gave a price—I said that it was about that price—he said "Who is he?"—I said "Tilo, he lives up the hill"—he said "When does he come?"—I said "About twice a week, he will be here in about an hour"—he asked me to hold the reins, and took out a book and wrote—I was standing with my back to the shop—he then said "Thank you," and drove off, leaving his name as Richardson—I went back to the shop, and my master came in in about three-quarters of an hour and went to the till and missed the money—no one had been in in the mean time.

Cross-examined. The bone man took the bones away and I took them out, but the governor was there then, and I did not leave the shop—the prisoner was in his cart the whole time.

Re-examined. I saw the same horse and cart outside the police-court when I was examined—I could not read the address on it.

ELLEN RAINBOW . My husband is a butcher, I saw the prisoner in a cart talking to Miles—there was no one in the shop when the prisoner called Miles out—I saw him leave the shop.

Cross-examined. I saw the prisoner's eyes towards the shop all the time he was talking to Miles—I was looking through a glass door.

WILLIAM RAINBOW . On 16th November, about 2.45, I came home and went to the till to pay the bone man and missed 4l.

THOMAS JOHNSON (Policeman X. 97). I was near the market-place, Kilburn, on the 3rd December about 2 p.m. and saw the prisoner standing by a pony and trap—he took the nose bag off the pony and went down the road and joined a man, and both ran away—a boy came back for the pony and trap, but I got into the trap and drove after them, and the prisoner was stopped—he said at the station, "I know nothing about it."

Cross-examined. I had not got into the trap when he commenced running—he began to run when I challenged the boy, but he could not hear what I said.

JOHN DALEY . I live at 46, Albert Road, Kilburn—on 3rd December the prisoner asked me to hold his horse for him in the Oarlton Road—I was holding it when the constable came up.

JOHN JEFFREYS (Policeman S. 255). On 3rd December I was on duty in Springfield Villas, Kilburn, and saw the prisoner running away, and heard cries of "Stop thief"—I stopped him—he said nothing.

Cross-examined. I did not charge him when I stopped him, with robbing a till.

SAMUEL HILL (Police Inspector X). I was at the station on 3rd December, when the prisoner was brought in with the cart—there was an empty carpet bag in the cart—the address tin on the cart was turned upside down—he gave his name John Davis, of no occupation, and refused his address.

Cross-examined. He was charged with loitering, with intent to commit felony, and he was charged at the police-court with being concerned in two larcenies.


He then. PLEADED GUILTY to a conviction in June. 1880, having then been previously convicted.— Eighteen Months' Hard Labour.

THIRD COURT—Monday, January. 14th, 1884.

Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-223
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown; Not Guilty > no evidence

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223. ALBERT JAMES HURLE (46) , Feloniously wounding James Campbell, with intent to do him grievous bodily harm.

MR. GHOSH Prosecuted.

JAMES CAMPBELL . I am a labourer, living at 2, Robert's Place, Pimlico, with my father, Bernard Campbell—we occupy one room together—the prisoner occupied another room on the same floor, the ground-floor—on the morning of 4th December, about half-past 12, I was in bed—the prisoner had four or five lads—they forced our door open—it was not locked—there was a chair against it at that time, and after they had dispersed my mother called "Murder"—the prisoner came into my room, and struck me on the right arm—I don't know what with—I was in my

trousers and day shirt—I had not got my waistcoat and coat on—the prisoner was between the two doors in the passage when the lads came in—I saw no instrument—he raised his hand; I tried to stop the blow, and received the wound on my arm—the supper things had been left on the table, and three or four plates were broken on the breaking in of the door—I turned to my father—the prisoner had left, and gone to his own room—the neighbours then went for a policeman—I was in my room and the prisoner in his when he came—I made a communication to the constable, showed him my arm, and the prisoner was taken in custody—I know the prisoner's sons; one of them is in prison—I was present at the trial to give evidence against him, but was not required—there is no glass door in my room—before the lads came in I heard them talking outside—I didn't go to the prisoner's room that night; I never went there.

By the. COURT. When I was stabbed I was standing up on the floor half dressed.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. I did not say at Rochester Bow that I was in bed at the time—we had a light in our room at the time you came in—I didn't break in the panels of your door or break the windows; they were broken weeks before—I didn't break four or five windows with my fist and finish them with a shovel—they have been broken by your son's confederates, thinking they were mine—I was summoned for breaking your windows and flower-pots and I was acquitted because there was not sufficient evidence—I had to pay the costs of the summons, but no damages at all—I have not been able to pay the 2s. yet, because you took the power out of my right arm—I didn't come to your room the same evening and challenge you and your son to fight—I had gone to bed; I laid down in my trousers because for the last two or three months I have never been able to go to bed; I have been threatened several times since you were brought for trial—I was not drunk at the time—I had had some drink; it had done me no harm—I suffered pain for a fortnight.

BERNARD CAMPBELL . I am the last witness's father, and occupy the same room—on the morning of 4th December, between 12.30 and 1 o'clock, the door was burst open—I got out of bed and my missus struck a light, and the prisoner was the first man I saw in the room—I turned my head, looked out in front, and saw his son and three or four standing outside the front door, in the yard—my son went towards the room door, where the prisoner was, and he turned round and the blood was running over his hand—I said "What is the matter?"—the prisoner was in the doorway and could hear—my son said "I am stabbed"—the neighbours outside halloaed and the policeman came, and I know no more about it—I went to bed about 11 o'clock that night—my son was in bed about 10.15—he was not quite sober—I saw nothing in the prisoner's hand—I cannot say where the prisoner was when the policeman came.

FRANK WEBB (Policeman B. 244). I was called to 2, Roberts Place, Pimlico, on the morning of 4th December, a few minutes past 12 o'clock, by a woman—it is a two-roomed house where these two separate families live—I saw the prisoner, his son Edward, and four or five lads just in the passage against his door, also the prosecutor in his room bleeding from his right fore arm—his room is on one side and the prisoner's on the other—the prosecutor made a communication to me, and thereupon I went into the prisoner's room and took him into custody—I said "James

Campbell has charged you with stabbing him"—he said "I will go quietly to the station with you"—at the station the charge was read over to him—he said he was innocent of it—in the prosecutor's room the crockery was all broken on the table, and all was in confusion, and the chairs all over—the prosecutor was not sober; he knew what he was about.

Cross-examined. I let you put your coat and hat on—at the station I searched you and found these two knives, both shut, in your trousers pocket; there was no blood on them—James Campbell has been convicted for assaults on the police and drunkenness and thieving, I don't know how many times—I don't know if he has been convicted of deserting.

By the. COURT. The prosecutor only had his trousers, boots, and shirt on, and was standing in his doorway—it is one of the roughest neighbourhoods in our division; it is chiefly Irish.

THOMAS NEVILLE , M.D. I live at Pimlico—I was called to see James Campbell at the police-station on 4th December about 12.10—I examined his right forearm; there was an incised wound more than an inch long—I put a suture and strapped it up—the incision went through the skin—I could not say by what instrument it had been caused—it is quite possible this knife might have caused it.

Cross-examined. It is quite possible that if the man had broken a pane of glass with his fist, and the sharp edge of the glass had come against his skin, it would have caused the wound—glass would cause an incised wound.

By the. COURT. He was under my treatment about a week—it is quite well now—there is a mark on the arm.

The Prisoner's Statement before the Magistrate."I reserve my defence."

EDWARD HURLE . I am the prisoner's son—on this night, between a quarter and 20 minutes to 12, I and my sister had been to the play, and as I came home and was going into the street door of the house James Campbell struck me—I pushed him into his own bedroom, and ran behind the street door, as our door is behind the street door—he struck the street door several times with the iron shovel, and our room door likewise, and split the panel—he said "If your b——old b—of a father won't come out and fight I will show you"—he went outside our room windows, and broke several panes of glass with his fist and several with the shovel, amounting to nine altogether, and he partly pulled the sash out—my father went out to charge him with breaking his windows, when he turned to the policeman and said he would charge my father with stabbing him—the policeman said to my father "What do you say to the charge?"—my father said he would go with him to the station, for he had never done it.

Cross-examined. When I got home it was just turned 11.30—we never broke the prosecutor's door open—when he heard the policeman was coming he stood between the street door and his own door—I could not say if he was in his own room or by the street door.

The prisoner received a good character.

The prisoner, in his defence, stated that he was awoke at 12 o'clock by a noise at the door, and his son told him Campbell had struck him with a shovel. Campbell wanted him to come out and fight, and called him names, but he

stopped inside till the policeman came, and then went outside to charge Campbell with breaking his windows.


There was another indictment against the prisoner for an assault occasioning actual bodily harm, upon which no evidence was offered.



Before Mr. Justice Hawkins.

7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-224
VerdictGuilty > with recommendation

Related Material

224. HENRY JOHN BILLING (29) was indicted for the wilful murder of Elizabeth Billing.


FLORENCE ELIZABETH BILLING . I am 10 years old—I live with my father and mother at 19, Shepherd Street, Plaistow—there are two other children besides me, I am the eldest, a little sister aged eight, and a little brother aged three—on the Friday, the day before my mother was shot, father asked her where the three chairs were gone out of the front room—she said "They are in pawn"—he said "I will soon quickly move the others"—I had missed three chairs out of the front room—next morning, Saturday, father went out without having his breakfast—he was in and out of the house a good many times during that day—he had a bad knee, and had not been to work for about a week—on that Saturday night I went with my mother to the pawnshop—my father knew we had gone—I don't know the time we went there—he told her to go, and told her to take his coat, trousers, and waistcoat—we took them to the pawnbroker's and came back—she handed the money she had received from the pawnbroker to my father—he put some of it in his pocket and gave mother some—before I went with mother to the pawn-shop father gave me 4s. to give to my aunt, Mrs. Butler—I took the 4s. to her, she is my father's sister, and she gave me back 6d.—I gave that 6d. to my father, and he gave it to mother—after she gave the money from the pawnshop to him he went out—he told my mother he should not be long—he came back in about half an hour—my mother, father, sister, and myself were then together in the kitchen—my little brother was up-stairs in bed—father told my sister to shut the street door—she did so—the kitchen door leading to the passage was open—just after my sister had shut the street door there was a knock at it, and my aunt, Mrs. Butler, came in—my father was then standing facing the wall, with his hand on the table, in the middle of the room, near the fireplace—mother was standing against the window—I was sitting by the fireplace—father's back was towards me—when my aunt came in father said "Martha, I am a free man; I have got out of all my debts"—she did not make any answer—after he had said that father turned round and took a pistol out of his pocket—he was facing me then; I could see his face—he held the pistol up, turned round, and shot my mother—I saw the pistol in his hand—he took it from his big-coat pocket, on the left side—I heard the report and saw it go off—when the shot was fired my aunt ran out into the street—when the shot was fired she was standing by the kitchen door, the door leading into the passage—when she ran out mother ran out too, and I went out after her—father put the pistol back into his coat-pocket—he followed me out into the street—my mother clutched hold of

the railings in the street—I then saw her fall down on the pavement—father bid my sister "Good-bye," and went away—he did not raise my mother up—I did not see him kiss my sister—she was in the street.

By the. COURT. Father was standing on the kerb when he wished my sister good-bye, about as far from my mother as I am from you—he did not go to her at all.

Cross-examined. He took the pistol from his left-hand pocket with his left hand—it was done very quickly, all in a moment, from the time my aunt came in till mother was shot—my aunt was not looking at my father at the time, she was looking at my mother—at the time father said he had paid all his debts my aunt was looking at him, and then the shooting happened immediately—he did not say that he had settled with the landlord, and he was going out—after this I went to stop with my grandmother, my mother's mother—there was a lady lodging there—my grandmother and the lady have talked about my mother's death—I did not listen to what they said—I could have listened if I had liked; I did not listen—I saw my Uncle Tom there, my mother's brother—he and my grandmother have talked about my mother's death—I did not listen to what they said; I might have done so if I had liked—my Aunt Martha did not come to my grandmother's—my Uncle Charles came there on the Sunday morning—I don't know whether he and grandmother talked about the death of my mother; he did not speak to me about it, not a word—I was in the kitchen—my Uncle Tom took me to the inquest; we had to go by train—my Aunt Martha went with us and Mrs. Smith; we were all in the same compartment—I sat by the side of Aunt Martha—they were talking about my mother's death nearly all the way; that was before I had given my evidence to anybody—I knew that I was going to the inquest for the purpose of telling what I knew about my mother's death—I did not listen to what my uncle and aunt and Mrs. Smith were saying—I did not hear what they said; I might have heard if I had listened—I know Eliza Buckley, my cousin—a day or two before my mother died I went with Eliza Buckley to buy a loaf; I did not pay for it, I got it on credit—it was not for my mother, it was for my aunt; she had the loaf, she paid me for it—my father found out about the loaf, and was angry about it—he did not punish me; he told me I was never to do such a thing again—I used not to go and pawn things with my mother; she has taken me with her to pawn things, we used to go together—father sometimes asked me where the things had gone to; I told him that mother had pawned them—not always; I sometimes said I did not know, but I did know.

Re-examined. Mother told me not to tell father; I sometimes used to do what she told me.

By the. COURT. When father went out he told mother that he should not be long; he came back in about half an hour—he did not speak to her when he came back—no words took place between them when he came back—he said nothing at all to her before he produced the pistol.

MARTHA HARRIET BUTLER . I am the wife of Charles Salisbury Butler, of 21, Shepherd Street, Barking Road, Plaistow—I am the prisoner's sister—I was examined as a witness before the Coroner—I can't say whether I was the first witness—the little girl was not examined there; she did not know the meaning of the Bible—our house is next door to the prisoner's—on Saturday, 1st December, I saw the prisoner twice—he came into our

house between 12 and 1 o'clock, and asked me to lend him a shilling—he said "I have had no breakfast this morning, and I have had nothing to eat for two days"—I gave him the shilling, and told him he had better get something to eat—he came in again about 6 o'clock, and asked me to lend him three shillings to get his black trousers from the pawnshop—he did not say why he wanted them—he said he thought the key of his box was in the pocket of his black trousers—I lent him the three shillings—he said he was going indoors—a little after eight o'clock I went into his house, and in the kitchen I found the prisoner, his wife, Florence and Gertrude, and Mr. Living the landlord—they were talking about the rent; the prisoner asked Florence whether she had paid the rent that he had given to her—she said "Yes, father, I have"—he said "Tell me the truth, or I will have you before the Court and make you tell the truth"—she said nothing to that—Mr. Living went out just after, and I went out followed by the prisoner's wife—she spoke to me outside—I went back to my own house—about a quarter of an hour afterwards Florence came and brought me 4s. 6d.—I gave her sixpence back—about 8.30 or 8.40 I went again to the prisoner's house; I went into the kitchen and found there the prisoner, his wife, and the two little girls—I was standing looking towards the fire—(Referring to plan. I was on this side of the table, on the side of the door—the prisoner was standing in front of the fire, close against the table, with his back to the table, looking at the fire—Mrs. Billing was standing with her back to the window, facing the prisoner sideways—Florence was between her father and the table; his back was a little turned towards her—she was stooping to the fire in front of him, between him and the fireplace; not before the table—Gertrude was close by her side—I said to the prisoner "Are you going out?"—he said "I am"—he did not say where he was going—I did not see what he did, but I heard a report of a pistol—I was looking at him at the time—I could have seen what he did if it had been presented, but I did not see him present anything—I did not see the pistol or his hands—I thought they were in his pockets—I heard the report and ran out of the house, and ran to my own house and knocked at the door—my husband came out—I then turned round and saw the deceased lying on the pavement outside—I knew the habits of the deceased—they did not live happily together—the prisoner was always at work—his wife used to pawn his goods and drank very much—he had not been at work for a few days because he had a bad knee—about three years before this occurrence I knew that the prisoner had a revolver—I had pawned it for him—he used to be out at his work late at night, and used to carry the revolver for protection—I pawned it at Downton's, in Abbot's Road, Poplar—I kept the ticket of it; the time ran out, and I subsequently burnt it—I was about a yard from the prisoner when I heard the shot; it might be two yards—I was just inside the door—I knew that there had been some dispute between the prisoner and his wife with regard to the payment of the rent—she used to pawn his property, drink it away, and instead of paying the rent spend the money.

Cross-examined. That had been going on for years—many times she has sold up homes that he had made for her, and pawned all his goods—she has done so a number of times—she came to me on this evening and said "I have the rent book and I don't mean to give it up"—when I went in the last time the street door was open; I did not knock, I

went in without knocking; it was directly I went in that I said "Axe you going out?"—he said "I have settled with my landlord and I am"—all this happened very quickly, almost in a moment—I was looking at him, and I was also looking in the direction of Florence; she was stooping down to the fire, I thought she was going to get her father a light—there was a table in the room with a drawer in it—I thought I saw the prisoner's hand in his pocket, moving about his pocket—if he had turned round towards his wife and taken a revolver with his left hand out of his left-hand pocket, presented it and deliberately fired at his wife, I must have seen it; I did not see it—she was laughing at me.

By the. COURT. He was moving his hand about his pocket as if he was feeling for his pipe; that was before I heard the bang—I thought his hand was in his pocket.

WILLIAM SMITH . I live at 11, Shepherd Street, Barking Road—I am a checker in the employ of the Midland Railway Company at the Victoria Docks—about 8.40 on Saturday night, 1st December, as I was standing at my door, I heard the door of the prisoner's house open sharply, and heard the little girl Florence screaming—I had no sooner turned my head than I saw the deceased fall on the pavement on her back—I ran to her and raised her in a sitting position—blood was pouring very fast from her mouth—while supporting her the prisoner came from the direction of his house—the deceased was about four or five yards from her own door—the prisoner walked past at a slow pace while his wife was leaning on my knee; he did not stop, he walked by—I said "For goodness' sake help me with her up"—he made no reply—he said to his little girl "Good-bye, give me a kiss"—the deceased was carried into her house—I went away—the prisoner went away.

CHARLES SALISBURY BUTLER . I live at 21, Shepherd Street Plaistow—about 8.45 on Saturday evening, 1st December, I was at home—a knock came to the door, and I went into the street and saw the prisoner's wife sitting on the pavement wounded, close to No. 17—I carried her into her house, No. 19—she then appeared to be quite dead—I remained there till the doctor came.

WALTER WINTERBORN . I am salesman to Mr. Day, a pawnbroker and furniture dealer, at 29, Croydon Road, plaistow—on Saturday, 1st December, about 1 o'clock in the day, the prisoner came to our shop and said he had got some furniture to sell, and asked me to go round and see it—I went with him to 19, Shepherd Street—I asked him why he wanted to sell the furniture—he said he was about parting with his wife, that he had had some difference with his wife, and he had agreed to part from her, and also that he wanted to make some money up, because he was going away—he said his wife was in the habit of spending all his money, and parting with everything, in fact he had hardly got anything in his place—he said he wanted 3l. for it—I offered 2l. 15s., and to make up the 3l. he pointed out one or two pictures over the mantel board—they happened to be portraits of children—I asked him if they were his—he said "Yes"—I said "I never like to buy portraits belonging to the family; if you are going away you had better take them with you"—he put his hand to his heart, and said "I will"—I said "I will run round and tell Mr. Day, and I will bring a van round presently"—he said "I wish you would leave it till between 4 and 5, or after dark at any rate, because I don't

wish any neighbours to see the goods go away"—Mr. Day called in the afternoon, and he declined to purchase the goods—I told the prisoner when he called about 5 that Mr. Day declined to buy any goods after dark—he said "Where is Mr. Day's other shop?"—I pointed out where it was, and he left me to go there—he said he wanted the money that night very particularly indeed—about 6 Mr. Day came to me with Mr. Cordery and a cart, and I went with Mr. Cordery to 19, Shepherd Street to see the rent book—I saw the deceased sitting in the kitchen nursing the child—the prisoner asked her for the rent book—she said Mr. Living had got it, and that it was all paid but two weeks, and she directed the prisoner to take me to the caretaker's—he took me next door but one—I understood him to call out "Nelly," and he said to her "This gentleman has come to buy my furniture, you know it is all right"—she said he had been living there some time, and that he was a respectable person—I said "I must see the rent book," and we went back again to the wife—as we were going back he said "I will go round with you to Mr. Living"—I said "I will go by myself"—I went round to Mr. Living, and the prisoner came in shortly afterwards—Mr. Living told me that nine or ten weeks' rent was owing, and that the rent book was at the house, and he went with the prisoner to his house.

GEORGE CORDERY . I live at 2, Bramah Road, Barking Road—on Saturday, 1st December, at a quarter past 5, I went to 19, Shepherd Street, by direction of Mr. Day—I there saw the prisoner—I said "I have come to fetch the furniture for Mr. Day," but I told him I must see the rent book before I removed the goods—he turned to fetch the rent book, but could not find it—he then said the rent was all paid—I insisted on seeing the rent book—he went into the house, and came back and said he could not find it—not being satisfied, I did not take the things away—he offered to go with me to the landlord.

CHARLES LIVING . I am a house agent in Barking Road—I am landlord of the house where the prisoner lived—on Saturday, 1st December, Mr. Day's salesman came to me about 5 minutes past 7—the prisoner afterwards called a little after 7, and asked for the rent book—I told him I had not got it, his wife had it, I had given it to her last Wednesday week morning, 21st November—he was very much surprised, to find any rent owing—I looked at my book and told him nine weeks was owing—that was 2l. 14s. at 6s. a week—seeing the state he was in I went with him to his house to satisfy him—going along he seemed to be roaming about different things, I thought perhaps there was something wrong with him—he was talking of selling his home out and things of that sort—when we got to the house he searched high and low for the rent-book; he looked under the carpet for it, because he said he had found it there before; he could not find it—I saw his wife there sitting by the side of the fire—the prisoner asked her for the rent-book—she said she had not got it—she did not say what had become of it; she would not satisfy him; she hardly said a word to him—he said he would give up the house, and I was to take notice next Monday—I said I could not till Monday week—he said, "I have been offered 2l. 15s. for my home, and the rent owing is 2l. 14s."—I told him I should not press him for the rent, but he must not sell his home, I would keep the home for him for three months if he wished, and he could have his things back as he required them, I would do anything to meet his views in any way—he seemed very pleased, he was quite satisfied as regards me—he

said, "I can believe you, Mr. Living, but I cannot believe my wife"—I have not received the rent.

Cross-examined. Florence was there at the time.

WALTER CHARLES CARPENTER . I am a pawnbroker, of 19, Prosser Terrace, Barking Road—I produce two pawn-tickets, one for a coat for 10s., pledged in the name of Ann Owen, and the other for a pair of trousers and vest, pawned for 5s. in the same name—both pledges were taken at the same time, about 8 o'clock in the evening.

WILLIAM WINCHURST . I am an ironmonger, of 3, Bank Buildings, Barking Road, about 100 yards from Mr. Carpenter's—on Saturday evening, 1st December, between 7 and 8 o'clock, I was in my shop and sold a revolver to some man who came there—it was a precisely similar revolver to this (produced)—I had three; one I have here—they were got from the same place at Birmingham—the man gave me 6s. 6d. for it, and took it away with him—before he took it away he produced some cartridges and tried one to the revolver; it appeared to fit all right—I did not sell him any cartridges—I do not know who the man was—I saw the prisoner before the Magistrate—I could not swear to him; I am doubtful whether he is the man—I only sold one out of the three.

Cross-examined. A great many revolvers of this description are sold in the country—I believe they are manufactured in very large numbers at Birmingham, and sold at about 6s. 6d. each.

HENRT IRVING (Policeman K). About 9 o'clock on Saturday evening, 1st December, I was on reserve duty at the door of the Plaistow Police-station—the prisoner came up to me, apparently out of breath—he said, "I am come to give myself up, I have shot my wife, here is the revolver"—he had the revolver in his hand—I took him into the charge-room to Inspector Le Coca, and in the prisoner's presence I said, "This man has come to give himself up for shooting his wife"—the revolver was handed to the inspector—it is a six-chambered revolver—one chamber had an exploded cartridge in it, and three were loaded—the prisoner was detained at the station, and I and the inspector went to 19, Shepherd Street, Plaistow, the prisoner's residence—I saw the prisoner's wife lying on the floor in the kitchen, dead—Dr. O'Flynn was there—I procured the ambulance, took the body to the mortuary, and found in the outside skirt pocket two purses, in which were several duplicates, a County Court summons, a bill, a gold keeper ring, and a pocket-knife—I handed them to the inspector—the prisoner was sober.

Cross-examined. He appeared to be out of breath from running—the police-station is between half and three-quarters of a mile from his house—I have told every word he said—I have since found out that the keeper ring is not gold.

JOHN LE COCQ (Police Inspector K). I was in the charge-room on Saturday, 1st December, when the prisoner was brought in about 9 o'clock—the constable said "This man has come to give himself up for shooting his wife"—the prisoner replied "If you send me back with one of the constables we will see if she is dead"—he had in his hand the revolver produced—he handed me eight cartridges and said "Here are some more cartridges"—they fit the revolver and are exactly the same as those that were in the revolver—I went to the address he gave and found the woman there dead, and the doctor—she was removed to the mortuary

—I afterwards examined the house—I found six duplicates and two life-policies—I then went back to the station and saw the prisoner—he said "Is she dead?"—I said "Yes," and said to the reserve man "Place him in the dock"—the charge was then entered on the charge-sheet by the sergeant, and read over—he was charged with wilfully murdering his wife, Elizabeth—he made no reply—next morning I went again to the prisoner's house, and in the front room upstairs I saw a box, in which I found three rifle cartridges—it was the prisoner's box, with some of his own clothing in it and some duplicates—I found altogether 42 duplicates—from the prisoner's house to Mr. Carpenter's is 500 yards, and about 100 yards farther on is Mr. Winchurst's—the prisoner was sober.

Cross-examined. I have told all he said when I came back to the house—I did not take a note of what he said at that time; I did of what he said on the first occasion—he did not say "It was an accident."

DENIS O'FLYNN . I am a M.R.C.S., and practised at Prospect Terrace, Barking Road, at the time in question—on Saturday evening, 1st December, about 8.55, I was called by Smith to 19, Shepherd Street, where I found the prisoner's wife lying on the kitchen floor dead—her body was warm, the eyes were glazed—I made a superficial examination of the head and chest—I found a bullet wound in the centre of the chest, it had apparently perforated the chest—she was dressed—there was a slight perforation of her jacket over the bullet wound, and a hole through her dress and chemise corresponding with the wound, and a little blood near the hole in the chemise—she was taken by my direction to the mortuary—on the 4th December I made a post-mortem examination of the body, I found that the upper lobe of the right lung was perforated as if by a bullet, it passed through the cavity of the pleura before entering the lungs—I did not find the bullet—death was caused by syncope owing to the bullet wound—the wound itself was almost in the centre of the chest, a little to the right—judging from the position and nature of the wound, I think the line of fire must have been direct.

JOHN LE COCQ (Re-examined). The prisoner's box was locked—I saw the key taken from him at the station—a halfpenny was found on him.

The Prisoner's Statement before the Magistrate. "It was a pure accident the offence with which I am charged. The revolver I had for the purpose of frightening her, and not doing her any harm in the least."

GUILTY. Strongly recommended to mercy by the Jury on the ground of long provocation by his wife. — DEATH .

7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-225
VerdictsNot Guilty > no evidence; Not Guilty > no evidence

Related Material

225. SIDNEY CHARLES WAY (17) , Feloniously knowing and abusing Mary Ann Kimpson, a girl under the age of 12 years.


The Jury being unable to agree, were discharged without returning any verdict.

The prisoner was subsequently arraigned before another Jury on the same charge, when MR. WILLIAMS, for the prosecution, offered no evidence.


There was another indictment against the prisoner for indecently assaulting the said child, upon which no evidence was offered.


Before Mr. Recorder.

7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-226
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty; Miscellaneous > no agreement; Not Guilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

Related Material

226. EDWARD CLIVE (32), MARY LOUISA DICKINSON NETHERSOLE (30), and FREDERICK SAUNDERS (24) , Unlawfully obtaining various sums of money by false pretences, with intent to defraud. Other Counts for a conspiracy with the like intent.

CLIVE PLEADED GUILTY to the Counts for false pretences.

MESSRS. POLAND and. MONTAGU WILLIAMS Prosecuted;. MR. MALONEY for appeared Nethersole, and. MR. POYNTER for Saunders.

MATILDA HABERNEHL . I am a dressmaker, of Geffen Street, Portman Square—on 29th October I saw this advertisement in the Daily Telegraph: "Artistic embroidery. Ladies in town and country can increase their income by working the above at home. Send addressed envelope for full particulars to E. Clive, 43, Skiers Street, Stratford"—I answered that, and in a day or two I received this letter. (Dated 30th October, from. 43, Skiers Street, Stratford, enclosing samples of embroidery for which 18s. a dozen would be paid, and requesting a deposit of 15s. on the value of the materials which would be sent. Signed E. Clive.) I replied, returning the sample as requested, and stating that I would send a postal order in a week—on 5th November I received this letter. (This stated:. "I have now a large order on hand and should be glad if you can begin work at once. Please send postal order at once, so that I can send you work on Monday. E. Clive.") I enclosed a postal order for 10s., stating that I was not able to send 15s. at present, but that it might be kept back from what I earned—I left that letter myself at 43, Skiers Street—I knocked at the door and Nethersole opened it—I asked her if any one named Clive lived there—she said "Yes"—I said "Is it a lady or a gentleman?"—she said "A gentleman"—I asked if I could see him—she said "He is not at home; he will not return till late in the evening"—she asked me to come in and took the letters and read them—I said "Will it be all right if I leave the 10s. order?"—she said she would give it to Mr. Clive, and would see that he answered me that evening or next morning—she showed me some embroidery which she said was worked by ladies, and that Mr. Clive was her cousin—she handed me back the letters and envelopes and let me out—I waited a week and no materials or letters came—I then wrote this letter. (This was addressed to Mr. Clive, stating that as no work had been sent, she wished the 10s. returned to her). I posted that myself and got no reply; I called again in about a fortnight—Nethersole came to the door—I asked to see Mr. Clive—she said that he would not be home till late—I told her I wanted the 10s. back—she said she could not give it me because she had not got it—I said that I had received no work—she said Mr. Clive was very busy and might have forgot it, but she would tell him and he would send me work either to-morrow or next morning—he didn't do so—I complained at the police-court and a warrant was issued—I parted with my 10s. because I thought I should be employed.

Cross-examined by. MR. MALONEY. I am a foreigner—the postal order was made payable to E. Clive—I didn't know whether it was a man or a woman—I was in the house about ten minutes; she was attending to the door and to the domestic duties—I saw no other person—she said she had only been a short time in the house—all the correspondence was with Clive.

ELIZA FANNY FRYER . On 29th October I saw this advertisement in the

Daily Telegraphy. and sent a stamped envelope addressed to myself in a letter—I received this reply enclosing samples—I then wrote to E. Clive, 43, Skiers Street, returning the embroidery and enclosing a post-office order for 15s.; I posted the letter myself—I received no answer—I wrote in two or three days for an acknowledgment, and received this letter. (November 3rd. Postal order duly at hand. You will receive work in a few days; I have so many lady workers that I am compelled to send off all work in rotation. Faithfully yours, E. Clive.) I never received any embroidery, and on 12th November wrote this letter and posted it myself. (Requesting that the 15s. might be returned.) I received no reply—I parted with my money because I believed the advertisement.

Cross-examined by. MR. MALONEY. All the letters were signed "E. Clive," but one was in a woman's writing—I never saw Nethersole.

CLARA ROBINSON . I live at Grove Villa, Lewisham—in November, 1883, I saw this advertisement, answered it, and received a letter enclosing embroidery, which I returned with a postal order for 1l. as requested—I parted with my money believing the advertisement to be genuine and that I was going to receive work, which I did not.

Cross-examined by. MR. MALONEY. This postal order has not been cashed; it is not signed by anybody.

ALICE JANE ROWE . I live at Breslin Cottage, Lambeth—on 29th October I saw this advertisement in the Daily Telegraph. and in answer wrote to E. Clive, and received this reply enclosing a piece of embroidery—my father sent a postal order for 15s. on 23rd November, and I afterwards wrote a post-card to Clive to inquire if it had been received—my father then received this letter. (Stating that the post-order received was for one year's subscription.) I got no work—I believed the genuineness of the advertisement.

LOUISA SHAW . I am the wife of Henry Shaw—I saw an advertisement in the Daily Telegraph in October, answered it, and received a letter, in consequence of which I enclosed a post-office order for 15s. requesting a receipt, and received this letter: "Madam,—I am in receipt of your post-office order; a parcel shall be sent to you. The ladies receive their work in rotation, E. Clive." I then wrote requesting that the work might be sent or the deposit returned, but received neither—I parted with my money because I believed the advertisement.

HELEN GREEN . I live at Stanstead, near Croydon—I saw this advertisement—my father answered it, and received this answer. (This was similar to the former one, but was addressed from. 8, Carthusian Street, Charterhuse Square, and signed H. Stanton.) I wrote a letter without date, enclosing a post office order for 1l., requesting work to be sent, and received this letter: "57, Barbican. Madam,—Your work will do nicely. I am now paying ladies for smokingcaps 16s. a dozen. I charge a deposit of 15s., but that is returned on withdrawal. Ladies must render their accounts on the 5th for payment on the 8th. H. Stanton." I also received this letter: "43, Skiers Street, Stratford. Madam,—Your father's cheque duly to hand last Thursday. You will receive a parcel on Monday next. H. Stanton." I never received any work nor my money back—I parted with it because I believed employment would be given me.

Cross-examined by. MR. MALONEY. The cheque never came back to my father—it must have been cashed.

MARY BEN-OLIEL . I live at 67, Carlton Gardens, Maida Hill—on 24th October I Raw an advertisement in the Daily Telegraph. and wrote to E. Clive, 43, Skiers Street—I received a letter enclosing a piece of embroidery, and asking for a remittance of 10s. and a deposit of 5s.—I sent a post-office order for 15s.—this letter was then written at my request: "To E. Clive, 43, Skiers Street. Miss Ben-Oliel on 1st October sent a post-office order to E. Clive on his promise to send work, hearing nothing further, she was advised to make inquiries at the post-office, and finds the order has been cashed to the signature of E. Clive." I also wrote this letter stating: "I am surprised at not having received any communication." I got no work, nor did I get my money back—I parted with it believing the advertisement, and that work would be sent.

LOUISA ROTHERY . I am the wife of William Rothery, of Aldersgate Buildings—Clive took a bedroom at our place in the name of H. Stanton on 17th July, 1883—he received a great number of letters a day, and a great many people came to ask for him.

Cross-examined by. MR. MALONEY. I never saw Nethersole there.

HENRY CONELLY . I live at 20, Chapel Street, Stratford, and am agent for the owner of 43, Skiers Street—on 5th October Clive came to me and I let him that house unfurnished at 8s. a week; he paid a deposit of 4s.—a few days afterwards he and Nethersole came to me as to the repairs, and I went to the house, and Nethersole opened the door—I asked her whether they were going to pay the other 4s.—she said that her cousin would send it—he didn't do so, and a distress was put in.

ROBERT HEARD . I live at 10, Lavender Street, Stratford—on the 29th November I was put into possession of 43, Skiers Street, for 2l. rent—I remained in possession for a week, night and day, and saw the three prisoners there—Clive took in letters coming by post, and afterwards he wrote letters, and I saw Nethersole and Saunders both writing letters—after the post came Clive looked at some and tore up some, saying "Rotten," and threw them in the fender—he used to show them to Nethersole, not to Saunders, but he would look over sometimes—Clive put some pieces of embroidery into the letters which were written—I saw Clive and Nethersole opening letters on the 29th November—they used to commence writing after breakfast—Nethersole was busy about his work during the day—while Clive was out she took in the letters and used to open them at first, but afterwards he gave her orders not to open them, and she laid them aside for him—the two male prisoners used to return about 6 p.m.—Clive asked me if I could read writing, I said that I was very nearsighted—I could not always understand the language they talked in, it appeared to be a foreign language—after they used that mysterious language they cleared the table and took the letters to the post—there was a bed and bedstead in the front room, and a pair of sheets and a counterpane, a washstand, and a chest of drawers—the two male prisoners, I believe, slept there; there was a bedstead in the back room but no clothes on it—Nethersole told me she slept there with nothing to cover her but her dress, that was because I complained of having to sleep on the floor—when she went out she shut the door and told me to put the catch up, and she would knock twice and scratch with her hand when she returned, and I was not to open the door to any one else, but I used to at times—on the Monday morning, just before they went, Clive went

up the passage and looked at the crevice of the door—I had charge of the front door on the 3rd December when a young lady came and gave me a message which I delivered to Nethersole, it was that Mr. Clive was to be at a certain place at 11 o'clock—I forget the name of the street—on one occasion Nethersole wrote this little bill (produced) and gave it to Clive, who reckoned it up—Saunders gave her some money, and I saw her give the change to Clive.

Cross-examined by. MR. MALONEY. I can read large print—this is a bill for sugar and tea—Nethersole did all the business of the house, and ran with messages at times; it was while she was out and while the other prisoners were out that I was not to open the door till she came back—I fetched beer in for myself—I only saw Nethersole open one or two letters all the time I was there, one of them had a black border—I have heard her speak of her sisters, but do not know that one of them is in Bethlehem Hospital—she used to talk about Wales, and I asked her if she was Welsh—I told them that I understood one word in Welsh—she said that she was out of a situation and had no place to go to, and came to live with her cousin as housekeeper—I did not take any letters to the post for them; they wanted me to leave the house, but I would not—they sent away a writing table, some chairs, and a fender—the beds and things were all seized for rent—no account has been given to the prisoners or any money returned to them—I did not ask Nethersole to give me the lace curtains, as I might as well have them as the landlord—this (produced) is an inventory of all the goods taken away—I heard Clive say to Nethersole on Thursday, "Louisa, will you write or copy a few letters?"but she was busy and did not do them, but after they had had their tea they all commenced writing, and pieces of embroidery were put in the letters—Clive used to show letters to Nethersole and she used to copy them.

Cross-examined by. MR. POYNTER. I went into possession on November 29th, and found Saunders there—Nethersole said that Saunders was a friend of Clive's, and that Clive was subject to fits—Saunders slept there every night except once, when they were both away—they might have private letters for anything I know—I never saw Saunders tear up any letters, he amused himself with a book of songs, and made cigarettes, and smoked; he took no part with the letters that I know of—I saw him write letters, but I don't know what they contained—Clive used to come down in the morning in a long night-gown and take the letters—he had a fit once.

GEORGE JAMES ENGLISH . I am an expert in handwriting—I have compared this bill, which is said to be Nethersole's writing, with the writing in three of the letters produced, and in my opinion they are written by the same individual.

Cross-examined by. MR. MALONEY. The writing in the letter signed "Stanton" is disguised, but it is the same—this circular letter is the same as some of those in Nethersole's writing—out of this bundle I find two or three in a female hand—they are signed "E. Clive."

JAMES ENWRIGHT (Detective K). On 3rd December I went to 43, Skiers Street with Sergeant Lloyd, saw Nethersole, and read the warrant to her—she said "I wish I was dead"—she said at the station "I wish I had had nothing to do with them."

JOHN LLOYD (Detective Sergeant). On 4th December, about 7 p.m.,

I found Clive at the station, and I was present when Nethersole was apprehended—I searched 43, Skiers Street the same night, and found the letters produced, and a large number of others, addressed to E. Clive, Howard, Nethersole, H. Stanton, and F. Saunders, a stamped envelope addressed to Mr. Green, a manuscript advertisement similar to that in the Daily Telegraph. addressed to newspaper offices in different parts of the kingdom, two printed lists of newspaper offices, a large number of pawn tickets, and a book of names and addresses and amounts received from them, several receipts for advertisements in the Daily Telegraph. and two telegrams of 16th and 17th October to Miss Louisa Nethersole, 43, Skiers Street, one of which is from M. Howard, Castle Street, Oxford Street, saying "Come up, and bring all letters with you."

Cross-examined by. MR. MALONEY. I have made inquiries about Nethersole—she is the daughter of a man who was in a very respectable position, but who met with misfortune and died—the family hold a good position in Wales—one of her sisters is in a lunatic asylum and another is under restraint—she has for many years endeavoured to support herself as a nursery governess—I have not heard of her living at Castle Street with Clive, or at Carthusian Street or Barbican or Aldersgate Street—I found one letter addressed to her and one to H. Nethersole.

Cross-examined by. MR. POYNTER. I found no letters addressed to Saunders except those which I found on his person—they are private letters.

RICHARD WILDING (Detective Inspector). I have had charge of this case—I took Saunders, and told him the charge—he said "I cannot see what I have to do with it; I have only known him a few weeks."

Cross-examined. I did not go to 57, Barbican; it is a coffee-house, where letters used to be addressed—I did not go to Carthusian Street.

JESSIE NEWMAN . I am a clerk in the post-office—I know Clive and Nethersole coming there to change postal orders and occasionally to purchase stamps.

Cross-examined by. MR. MALONEY. I don't remember their cashing post-office orders—a postal order is signed by the payee when he receives the money, and a post-office order likewise—the orders were signed Clive to the best of my recollection—I cannot remember whether I paid Nethersole any—she once showed me a letter, and asked me what time it would be delivered—I took the address, but left it at the police-court.

Nethersole's Statement before the Magistrate."I did receive the sum of 10s. from Matilda Hibernal for my cousin. That is all I did receive."

The Jury being unable to agree as to Nethersole, were discharged without giving any verdict.


Sentence on. CLIVE— Twelve Months' Hard Labour.

7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-227
VerdictNot Guilty > no evidence

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227. MARY LOUISA DICKENSON NETHERSOLE was again indicted for obtaining money from other persons by false pretences, upon which. MR. POLAND offered no evidence.


7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-228
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude; Imprisonment > hard labour

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228. THOMAS LEVANDER (28) and WILLIAM THOMAS LLOYD (22) PLEADED GUILTY to feloniously breaking and entering a building and stealing a quantity of linen, the property of the Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Company.

LEVANDER— Five Years' Penal Servitude.

LLOYD— Eighteen Months' Hard Labour.

Before Robert Malcolm Kerr, Esq.

7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-229
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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229. ALICE COOPER (21) , Stealing a gold ring from the person of William Helping.

MR. CULPEPER Prosecuted.

WILLIAM HELPING . I am a labourer, of 2, Victoria Road, Plaistow—about 10.30 on Monday, 31st December, I was in the Barking Road, and the prisoner came up and said "Here you are, George"—she walked along with me and put her hand in my right-hand trousers pocket and took out 10d. and the ring, which I had only put there three minutes before—I called a policeman, but she got away—the next day I saw her in a beershop; she tried to get away, but she was arrested.

JOSIAH SPELLER (Policeman K. 449). I took the prisoner at the Robin Hood and Little John beershop, Canning Town, about 10.30 on 1st January—I took her to the station, and when the charge was read over by the inspector she said "He gave me the 10d., and he knows he did"—he said "I did not give it to you"—nothing was found upon her.


Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-230
VerdictGuilty > unknown; Not Guilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude; Imprisonment > hard labour

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230. WILLIAM BANKS (34), HARRY RICHARD DUNN (35), and EDWARD TURNBULL (50) , Stealing a sack of wheat and a sack of bone dust, the property of the London and St. Katherine's Dock Company, the employers of Banks and Dunn. Second Count. feloniously receiving the same.

MESSRS. GRAIN and. PURCELL Prosecuted;. MR. GEOGHEGAN defended Turnbull, and. MR. BLACKWELL defended Banks.

VALENTINE TALLON . I am assistant delivery foreman at the granaries—on 23rd November I was in the delivery office about 1.15, when Turnbull came and handed me this order (produced) for 1 cwt. 3 qrs. of wheat-dust—I read it and handed it to Shadbolt, who handed it to Banks, and he told Shadbolt to enter it in the delivery book—I know Shadbolt's handwriting—Shadbolt wrote this order and Banks marked it off. (Read: "40070 Miller's craft, deliver to Mr. P.E. Phillips, Block 2, 1 cwt. 3 qrs. wheat-dust, ex sundry ships, C. Bartlett, No. 5," and underneath." Delivered to Miller's craft in the merchant's sack. W. Banks, 23-11-83.") After the delivery took place, at about 3.30 or 3.40, Banks came to the office with Turnbull and brought this book "C" with him—Banks told Shadbolt to enter the delivery in the usual way—it is Shadbolt's writing on the back of it; I did not see him write—there is a receipt in that book, 191—I did not see it made—I know the handwriting of the signature "E. Turnbull;" I have seen him write his signature four or five times—Shadbolt was present when it was written—I was in the office attending to other work at the time the receipt was made, and I did not see it made—this receipt, "Deliver to Miller's craft Nymph, Block 2, 1 cwt. 3 qrs. wheat-dust, ex sundry ships in merchant's sacks; received at 3.30 O.G. in craft," signed "E. Turnbull," after it was signed, was given back to Turnbull.

Cross-examined by. MR. BLACKWELL. It is not usual for the foreman of one granary to go and take goods from another granary—I swear that when goods are to come out of one granary the foreman has never taken the first that comes to hand of the same description to prevent the detention of the as

far as I know—I know of no irregularity occurring at the docks—I have heard of people being fined for irregularity in book-keeping and otherwise—I have not been fined—I was fined for losing some sacks, which I found afterwards.

Cross-examined by. MR. GEOGHEGAN. This receipt of Turnbull's is in Shadbolt's handwriting—Shadbolt was assistant foreman to Banks—the receipt was not written in the presence of Turnbull—I am not in the habit of writing receipts and waiting for two or three hours for the persons to come and sign them—this full receipt with no signature is the railway company's—one of their men comes round now and then and signs it; he does not sign it at the time it is drawn up—these goods have been delivered to the Midland Railway and not signed for—that receipt was not drawn up hours before Turnbull signed it, because it was only 1.15 when he applied for the goods, and 3.30 when they were delivered—I will not swear it was not drawn up at 1.15; I should think it was not—I will swear beyond all doubt that when Shadbolt booked the order Turnbull was present—I said at the police-court "I believe Banks and Turnbull were both in the office"—I will not swear at the time Shadbolt booked the order that Turnbull was in the office—an order by bulk is different to an order by sack; an order by bulk is by weight, by sack it is by the bag—I heard Turnbull say he had signed the receipt by mistake by the wind blowing over the leaves—I would not swear the two receipts are in the same handwriting—I saw him write this in the book from 1st to 5th January, when the leaf was blown over—I saw him write this one to had bolt—the shed where this was signed is a temporary box—there are two delivery foremen and two assistants—Mr. Davis is my superior—I won't swear he was there at the time it was signed—I have no clock in the office—I would not swear it was 3.30—I simply say it was 1.15 because it is so in the book in Shadbolt's writing—I am sure it was not so late as 3.45, because the goods were delivered at 3.30—our hours are from 9 to 4 o'clock—we have lights at the office; they were not lit at this time.

HENRY SHADBOLT . I am not now in the Dock Company's employ—I can tell when I left from the letter I received—I recollect this order being brought to me on 23rd November by Turnbull—I have not the remotest recollection of what time it was, the book will show—I keep this memorandum book of times for the Dock Company—from this book I see it was 1.15—it was at 15 granaries delivery box—Banks was not with him—this book was kept by me under Mr. Banks—when I received this order I entered the time in the time book, then I referred to the stowage book, and then I made this entry—I kept the order, and after the delivery of the goods I booked it—the book would go to Dunn, the tallyman, to deliver—Dunn was not present when Turnbull came in; I gave it to Dunn at the delivery box—I swear I gave it to Dunn, and not to Banks—Banks was not present, I had not seen him for hours—I have made a statement to Mr. Rothwell, the clerk of the solicitors for the prosecution—I will not swear I did not tell him I gave this book to Banks; I believe I did not tell him I had given it to Banks—he took a statement from me—upon my oath I don't believe I told him that; I have no recollection of it—I saw Banks at the House of Detention before I received my subpoena, and after I had made my statement at the Victoria Docks—I will not swear I did not tell Mr. Rothwell I had given the book to Banks—Turnbull was

not present when I gave Dunn the book—I did not say anything to Dunn—I cannot say if Tallon was present when the order was brought—I saw Banks that day just before leaving off, or after it may have been—I cannot swear whether he came to the office at 3 or 3.30 bringing that book with him—I have left there now three or four weeks—I will not swear he did not come to the office with Dunn, bringing the book C with him, I have no recollection—I cannot stick to the whole statement I made—I booked the delivery order—no one told me to do so—I will swear Banks did not tell me—I don't recollect stating that at 3.30 on the afternoon of 23rd November Banks came to the office accompanied by Turnbull, and brought the book marked C with him, and Banks told the witness to book the delivery order in the usual way, and witness did so—I don't recollect if it occurred—I booked the order—Banks was my principal—he would not give me instructions to do so—it is Banks's handwriting at the bottom of the entry of 23rd November in C book, "Deliver the above to Miller's craft in one merchant's sack, W. Banks." That is underneath my entry—I will not swear Banks did not tell me to make that entry in the book, and book the order—this in the receipt book, a copy of the order, is my handwriting—it is Turnbull's signature at the bottom—I saw him write and sign it—it may have been before or after Banks had put his signature to that yellow book, I cannot say which—if Banks had not been present I should not have signed that order, I should have expected the man that delivered it—I cannot say Banks delivered it—it has occurred before with other goods—if the tallyman had delivered it and brought the book in, as he has done in many cases, and said "I have delivered so-and-so," I should have booked it for him—I would book the delivery if I did not see it.

Cross-examined by. MR. BLACKWELL. I have not seen an account of this matter in the papers—Banks sent for me to go and see him at the House of Detention—I have his letter—no one said the wheat dust was in No. 5—it was my place to find where it was in the storage book—I looked in the storage book, and could not find it—I did not afterwards find it was in No. 5; I heard them speaking of what warehouse it was in—I don't know of my own knowledge—I did not see Mr. Heath outside No. 8 warehouse talking to Banks—I may have seen Heath at Banks's office that day—I did not know on that particular day that a constable was watching the Nymph at the time these goods were delivered, but I know the barge had been watched, not on that day, but before—every one knew it had been watched—Banks knew some weeks before it had been watched—if goods were to be delivered on a barge, some from 4, some from 5, and some from 8 ware-house, the foreman of 5 would see all the goods on board the barge—I remained in the Dock Company's employment some few days after 23rd November—I am almost certain I left in November—I know Mr. Davey; I believe he is foreman of 6, 7, and 8 warehouses—on this 23rd November Heath wanted Banks to finish an order, and take some goods out of No. 6 warehouse, and there was a dispute about it, and Banks refused to take them out of 6, 7, or 8, I forget which, because of what was said about this transaction—if I or other labourers told Banks that we had delivered goods it would be customary for him to sign on our saying they had been delivered without actually seeing the delivery himself, if there was another delivery waiting, and it came near 4 o'clock, so that we might be done and get away by 4—it is improper to do it, but it is done sometimes when we are in a

hurry, we don't stop at the strict rules—I don't know how long Banks has been in the Company's employ.

Cross-examined. When I saw Mr. Both well I was in the Dock Company's service—I might have heard Grig's name, the general superintendent of the Dock Company's police—I could not recollect him—I believe Mr. Rothwell asked me some questions—I have left the Dock Company's service now to better myself, of my own accord, I was not dismissed—we had no clock—when I entered 1.15 I had to guess as near as possible—the "one merchant's sack" was written on the same day, it is my writing—I see only one thing altered on the blue order, that is "Pass given on 24th"—at the time, perhaps, I entered all the other part of the delivery, and then afterwards it came to my recollection that it had been in a merchant's sack, and I entered it—it was at the same time because of my booking it; I will swear that—I am now in the service of Farmer and Halls, artificial manure manufacturers.

By the. JURY. There is no mark on the sack beyond the weight.

THOMAS PLANTIN . I am a permanent labourer in the employment of the Dock Company, and am employed under foreman Tyler in Granary Ware-houses 5 to 8—on Friday, 23rd November, Banks came to me about half-past 3—he said he had been to Mr. Tyler, and Mr. Tyler had sent him to me to know where 1 cwt 3 qrs. of wheat dust was—he had got a bit of paper with him which I thought was an order—Dunn was with him—I told them it was in No. 7 middle floor—I went with them and showed them the sack with the 1 cwt 3 qrs. of wheat dust—the weight was marked on the sack—I left Banks and Dunn to get it down; Dunn had gone for a truck to take it away, and Banks was standing there—I afterwards saw Dunn about a quarter to 4 on the quay with the sack on a truck taking it towards the delivery foreman's box.

Cross-examined by. MR. BLACKWELL. I showed them a sack, and Dunn went away, leaving Banks there—I did not stay for a minute—I don't know how long Banks stayed—I next saw Dunn wheeling a sack; I did not look at that sack carefully, I could see what sack it was by my mark on it—I mark a good many sacks—I was alongside of it—I put on a weight told me by some other man—I can't tell you how many sacks I mark in a month—not one of the other sacks was marked at that time.

By the. JURY. It is not usual for foremen or tallymen to truck goods on the quay.

Cross-examined by. MR. GEOGHEGAN. I have never seen a foreman truck a sack before—I saw the sack of wheat at the police-station on 24th November—I did not fill a sack with bone dust by Mr. Horton's directions—I marked outside how much it weighed—the weight of an ordinary bag of bonedust would be 1 1/2 cwt—it was a gunny bag—there is a great difference between wheat and bone-dust; the colour is different, the bonedust is a dirty white—the wheat-dust colour depends on where it has been; if there had been indigo on the floor before it would be a kind of Prussian blue.

Cross-examined by Dunn. Banks was with you when I showed you the bag, and you went to get a truck—I can't say if Banks was not there when you got the bag again—I did not tell you to go to 29 shed—I did not know where the craft was; I knew nothing about the craft—I don't know how far the foreman's desk is from 29 shed—it was about 3.30 when I saw you.

Cross-examined by. MR. GEOGHEGAN. The sack of wheat produced is the same size as the sack of bone-dust which was delivered—a person could not tell whether it contained wheat or bone dust.

Re-examined. Wheat-dust is in a wheat sack, bone-dust is in a gunny. bag—one would hold four bushels and the other two—I was told to mark the bag of bone-dust when it was taken out of the craft on the 24th—I had marked the sack of wheat-dust with the weight outside in the ordinary course of business.

WILLIAM HENRY BRADLEY . I am foreman of No. 29 granary shed in the Victoria Docks; that is about 130 yards from No. 7 granary along the quay—on 23rd November I had to deliver 41 bags of wheat to Miller's craft, of which Turnbull was lighterman, from No. 29 shed—he came alongside with his craft—I got the order about a quarter past 3, and I began to deliver about twenty minutes past 3—Robins was the man trucking—nobody was in the craft besides Turnbull—there was a shoot down to the craft—as I was standing close by the shoot, and the delivery of the bags was going on, I saw Dunn coming from the quay round the corner of No. 8 warehouse with a truck with a sack on it—I don't know what sack it was, it had the appearance of a wheat sack—he brought it to the craft up to the shoot, and he and Banks put it down together—when I first saw Banks he was on the quay alongside the sack; I believe he came with Dunn—Banks put his hand to the sack at the shoot, and helped to turn it over into the barge, where Turnbull received it and put it on one side—after the first sack Banks asked me how long I should be before I had finished my delivery—I said perhaps I might be 5 or 10 minutes, I had got 10 bags more to deliver—he and Dunn then went up the quay together towards No. 8, Dunn taking the truck with him—I next saw Banks come back again without Dunn; he met Dunn, who was coming from the direction of No. 8 with another sack on the truck—he accompanied him to the shoot, and together they put it on the shoot—Turnbull was in the craft and received the bag as it went down the shoot—my delivery was then almost done; I went away to book the order up, and so on—I was away about 7 minutes, and when I had finished I was leaving the premises and met Tyler, the foreman of Nos. 6, 7, and 8 granaries—I had a conversation with him, and in consequence of what he said we went back to the lighter—Banks was there, and Turnbull was in the lighter—Tyler said to Banks, "What have you been delivering here?"—he said, "One sack of wheat dust"—Tyler said, "What are you doing with this bone-dust here?"—I saw traces of bonedust on the lighter—Tyler pointed to a bag of bone-dust—Horton got down and assisted to take off the hatches, which were on when we got back, and the gunny bag was then visible—Horton said, "What are you doing with that bag of bone-dust?"—Turnbull said, "I don't know what' it is there it is"—on the 24th I received instructions from Mr. Heath, the deputy warehouse keeper, and in consequence the barge Nymph, which had got to K jetty, was brought back to No. 5 shed, and her contents tallied out—the sack of wheat-dust was found—there were 98 bags of sweepings, 43 bags of wheat original, one sack of wheat-dust, and one sack of wheat—the bone-dust had been taken out the previous night—wheat is sometimes imported in bags, and is then called original, and sometimes in bulk and put into sacks—the 43 bags of wheat were imported in bags from Calcutta and Bombay—Turnbull and Banks were present at the tally—Turnbull in

my presence was asked to produce the orders for his cargo—I believe Tallon has the orders—there was no order for the one sack of wheat nor for the bag of bone-dust—Robins was helping to deliver the 41 bags; I left him in the office when I went away to see about the orders.

By the. JURY. There would not be anything unusual in the fact of Banks, as foreman, assisting another person to pass a bag down the shoot, but it is irregular.

Cross-examined by. MR. BLACKWELL. I was acting foreman on the 23rd, now I am actual foreman—if one of my men came to a barge just before 4 o'clock I should not give him a hand to get the sack into the barge, I would perhaps suggest he should put it in quick, or something of that kind; I don't say I should be too dignified for it; I don't know that other foremen have done it, it is not usual, but I have seen others do it—I don't know that goods are sometimes entered in one book and sometimes found in other quarters of the dock in different warehouses—I don't know of any mistakes in keeping the Company's books—everything is done with perfect regularity as far as my side is concerned—I believe Tyler has been censured for carelessness—I did not know that Horton had—I know Tallon has in one instance and fined—Davey is a delivery foreman like myself—I should not say he was a model of carefulness—perhaps he does things better than I do—I know he had a fine; I don't know what for—I have been in the Company's service 11 or 12 months—I cannot say if goods have been entered in the wrong book; if goods represented to be in No. 5 warehouse have been found in No. 8; I would not undertake to swear it.

Cross-examined by. MR. GEOGHEGAN. The barge was lying immediately opposite No. 29—the shoot was down from the quay to the lighter—the distance from No. 29 to the mouth of the shoot was about 18 yards—I had not completed the delivery when I saw Banks and Dunn—two truck men and one at the pile were employed in the delivery—they brought two bags at a time; there would be about a minute between the delivery of each sack—I was anxious to complete the order before 4 o'clock, and told the men to hurry up—the man would bring two bags up, and shove them on the shoot himself, and Turnbull would receive them—one bag follows the other—when Banks and Dunn shot these two bags down both my men, Robins and Surrey, were serving down the shoot, and Banks and Dunn served down too—I was anxious to complete the order as soon as possible; we wanted to get away at 4 o'clock—this was from 3.30 to 3.45; it was getting dusk—Turnbull was the only man on the barge; he trimmed the bags as they went down—he would keep a tally by the tier—he did not tell me he had lost his tally on account of the bags being delivered so quickly—I never heard Banks, Dunn, or Turnbull interchange a single word together—after my delivery was completed the barge went from No. 29 shed to jetty K, where I found it lying next morning—I did not find Turnbull receiving goods there—I do not know that he was there to receive orders—I have looked over his orders and tallied the contents of the barge with them—he had received his full cargo of what I tallied out, and they completed the goods in the barge with the bookings—these were orders for linseed and wheat sweepings—he was the only person I saw in charge of the barge.

Cross-examined by Dunn. I did not see you talking to Banks and Turnbull—I think there were no contract men at work that day—I suppose a bag would weigh 1 1/2 bushels and a sack 3 bushels; they vary very much

—when a sack is first made up it weighs 24lb., and sometimes more than 2 cwt.—damaged wheat is sometimes weighed up to 2 cwt. a sack—there is a wide difference in the shape.

By. MR. GEOGHEGAN. I saw Turnbull sign something when he should have signed for the 41 bags of wheat—it would be my duty to see he signed the receipt—to the best of my knowledge Surrey was present—he did not sign for 41 bags of wheat on the 23rd; he signed for 37 bags—I did not notice the mistake, the wind blew the leaf over, and the entry before the other was signed—I was not in a particular hurry—I did not notice it till I was asked for the receipt next day.

Re-examined. All the 41 were bags, and while they were being delivered I saw the two sacks sent down the shoot—there is a wide difference between the sacks and bags.

By. MR. GEOGHEGAN. I saw my signature on the 23rd at the back of order B—I see my signature on the 24th; I don't know how it got there—I don't know what the "R.S." means—I cannot say if it was there when I wrote my signature.

By the. JURY. I tallied out 43; 41 he had from me, the other two he got from another jetty—he produced the order for them; they were correct.

GEORGE ROBINS . I am a labourer in the Dock Company's service—on 23rd November I was employed in delivering bags of wheat under Mr. Bradley—while doing so I saw Dunn and Banks come round twice, bringing a sack from No. 8 on a truck; they delivered it on the barge by the shoot, and having done that they both went back to No, 8 together and brought another sack, and delivered it into the barge—then they went back, and I saw Banks bringing a gunny bag of bone-dust and deliver it on to the barge—nobody was with Banks then—he delivered it down the shoot on to the barge—Turnbull was on the barge the whole time.

Cross-examined by. MR. BLACKWELL. I was going backwards and forwards from No. 29 delivering—Mr. Griggs on the Saturday after asked me whether I saw Banks and Dunn trucking a sack round together—I said "Yes"—he asked me whether I had seen them trucking one or two, and I said "Two"—we were short-handed that day, there were no contract men—I have never seen a foreman trucking a bag round when they were short-handed at 4 o'clock—I have not seen Horton doing it that I know of—we all like to get away at 4 o'clock—I should not think it wrong if my foreman gave me a hand about 4 o'clock—Bradley is my foreman, he hat never done so.

Cross-examined by. MR. GEOGHEGAN. I know Bradley entered the delivery of 41 sacks, and that he tallied that himself—I don't know if it was a most improper thing for him to tally his own delivery—bags and sacks are about the same size; bags as a rule don't run as large as sacks, sometimes they do—we commenced the delivery about 3.20; it was getting dark when we finished—I took two bags at a time on my truck—it took us from 3.20 to 3.55 to deliver the 41 bags, that would be more than a bag a minute.

Cross-examined by Dunn. I said at the police-court you put in two, and Banks put in a gunny bag; I didn't say one sack more—Bradley has only told me to speak the truth.

WILLIAM TYLER . I am foreman of the grain warehouses, 6, 7, and 8, Victoria Docks—on 23rd November, about 3 o'clock, Banks came and asked about a sack of wheat dust which he wanted to deliver, and I referred him

to Plantin, at No. 7 warehouse, to show him where it was—I afterwards spoke to Plantin and Horton at No. 8 warehouse, because I had missed a bag of bone dust from No. 8—you could get into No. 8 from No. 7 by the bridge which connects one with the other—after speaking to Plantin and Horton I saw Turnbull outside No. 8 and spoke to him, and then went down to the barge Nymph—Horton was there before me; I directed him to go—I saw Turnbull in the barge—Banks was there—Horton got into the barge—the hatches were not down when I saw them—Horton was getting the gunny bag of bone dust out—I ordered it to be taken out; it was the bag I had missed from the ground-floor of No. 8—in the same warehouse there were a lot of piles of wheat in all manner of bags and sacks—these were two odd sacks outside the piles, which had been placed four or five yards from where the bone dust was—next morning I missed one of these two bags—I had given Banks no authority or instruction to go into No. 8 and take any clean wheat or bone dust—I had given Dunn no authority to take anything from the ground-floor of No. 8—he had not spoken to me about it—I had no order lodged with me for any clean wheat or bone dust in sacks—if Dunn was told by his superior, Banks, to take a sack it would be his duty to obey him; he would be his superior, and he would take it for granted that he had got the order.

Cross-examined by. MR. BLACKWELL. It would not be the duty of a foreman to help in loading if they were short handed—I don't know that there were any contract men there that day, there were at our quay—if Bradley said there were no contract men it would be a mistake—I was in my box at the corner of No. 6—I didn't superintend the loading of the barge—men do not go away at 4 if they have work to do—there may have been mistakes as to the warehouse in which goods were to be found—I cannot recollect in which stowage his goods were entered—there is a special stowage book for No. 5—I don't know that there was a good deal of irregularity in the entry in the books of articles—I know this special wheat dust was not entered in No. 5 till two days after it was delivered and sent away—I believe it was entered before the 25th—I don't know how the order for the bone dust first came into the hands of Banks; I know mistakes are pretty constantly made in this warehouse—I have not been fined for carelessness—I have never taken goods out of any other than my own warehouse when it was necessary to complete an order—I simply look after what comes in and have charge of it while in the granaries, but I do not deliver it—I do not go away for dinner, I stop there all day—I don't know that Davey was fined for taking things out of another warehouse, because he couldn't find the things to deliver in his own.

Cross-examined by. MR. GEOGHEGAN. The delivery foreman and tally foreman ought to be two distinct persons—it is wrong for the foreman totally his own delivery—if Bradley tallied his delivery of 41 sacks that was a most improper thing—I didn't go into the barge when the gunny bag of bone dust was found in it, I remained on the quay—I didn't hear whether Turnbull said anything when the bone dust was found—I should not say that a delivery of more than a bag a minute was a very quick delivery, 300 or 400 bags an hour I should call a quick delivery with one man on the barge looking after them—I didn't see a single word, or look, or sound pass between Banks and Dunn and Turnbull.

Cross-examined by Dunn. I heard Bradley say that you had made a mistake.

By the. JURY. The tallyman tallies in the delivery book to show the goods have been delivered.

Re-examined. I have nothing to do with Bradley's department and nothing to do with the delivery of goods—I know nothing of my own knowledge as to whether contract men were there or not—Raleigh Brothers were the original importers of this wheat.

WILLIAM HENRY HORTON . I am a foreman in the Dock Company's service, attached to warehouses 5 to 8—Banks had no right whatever in 6, 7, or 8—Dunn would be attached to any warehouse—I saw Banks and Turnbull about half-past one on 23rd November in the Customs House Hotel with Mr. Thompson; the three were speaking to one another—I did not know Turnbull as being in Thompson's employment—about 3.40 the same day I saw Banks wheeling a sack on a truck towards No. 8—I asked him what he had—he said "A sack of wheat dust"—later on I saw him either In the delivery box or outside the warehouse—I asked him then "What have you delivered to Miller's craft?"—he said "A sack of wheat dust"—shortly after 4 o'clock, in consequence of information I received, I went to Miller's craft and said to Turnbull "What have you received from Banks?"—he said "A sack of wheat dust"—before that I had noticed this bag of bone dust in the craft and some bone dust on the gunwale—the hatches were not down—I told him that was not bone dust—this bag of bone dust is the ordinary size and shape of a gunny bag—when I pointed it out, he said that was what Banks had delivered—Banks came up during the conversation—I said to Banks "You have made a mistake," I did not mean anything more—he made no reply—I ordered the bag of bone dust to be taken from the craft.

Cross-examined by. MR. BLACKWELL. I could tell bone from wheat dust when I saw them on the gunwale—mistakes are made at the docks, they are not frequent—I have known delivery foremen fined for mistakes of that description—Davey has been fined for that—he is still in the service as foreman—if a foreman is told to send certain goods away and he does not find them in one warehouse, it is not customary for him to go to another warehouse to take corresponding goods—I cannot remember it's being done—Mr. Heath has supervision over me and has the right to give general directions as to how the work shall be carried on—I do not know that he told Banks to take a parcel out of No. 6 to complete an order, or that the prisoner refused to do it—I was drinking with Banks in the public-house—we did not go in together, he asked me to go in and I followed him—Dunn would act under the delivery foreman's orders—there were no contract 'men on the 23rd—I don't know, it does not come under me—if a delivery foreman was loading a barge and it was near 4 o'clock, it is very improbable that he would ask another tallyman or labourer to help his men; he would try to get done in time and would try to get more men—my first impression was that Banks had made a mistake—he has been there over 18 months—I have been there 11 months.

Cross-examined by. MR. GEOGHEGAN. When Banks asked me to have some liquor I was at work, going towards the freight office—I went into the house to receive information about five minutes after he asked me—I swear we were not drinking and smoking in there when Turnbull and,

Thompson came in, they were in the house before I came there, they were in the same compartment as Banks—I stopped there about 10 minutes—I did not know that the Nymph had been into dock and out again with another cargo since this—some of the hatches were off when I got there—the hatches where the cargo was were only partly off—when I told Turnbull I had come to look for the bone dust he helped to look it out of the barge—this bag is in the same condition as when I received it from the barge except that the writing "Bone dust" and the weight have been put on it—there is nothing externally in the appearance to tell whether it contained bone dust or wheat sweepings.

By the. JURY. Wheat-sweepings are sometimes put into a gunny bag.

Re-examined. I went into the public-house because I had noticed something, and I went in to see and hear what I could; when I said "This is not wheat dust," referring to the bag, the bag was opened so that I could see inside—the bag would have been under the hatches if they had been down—the bag was partly opened so that anybody could see what was in it.

Cross-examined by. MR. GEOGHEGAN. The hatches were not over that part of the barge where the bone dust was contained—I cannot say whether the bag was burst open in coming down the shoot.

THOMAS GRIGG . I am superintendent of the London and St. Katherine Dock Company's Police—from information received on 24th November I saw Dunn and said "Dunn, I am come to see you about the delivery of some grain to the barge Nymph; it might turn out a very serious question, and therefore it is my duty to caution you as to what you say. What do you know about it?"—Dunn said "At a quarter before 4 o'clock I received instructions on the previous day, the 23rd, from foreman Banks to deliver a sack of wheat-dust; he let me have the book in which the delivery order had been copied, and sent me to see a man named Plantin, who would show me where the sack was. I went to Plantin; he pointed me out the sack of wheat-dust, which I took upon my truck and wheeled to the Nymph"—I said "What about a sack of wheat which had also been delivered by him?"—he said "I never took but one sack to the Nymph"—I said "Who was with you when you delivered that sack?"—he said "Turnbull went with me to the middle floor No. 7 warehouse, and was with me when the sack was passed out to me by Plantin, and was with me when I delivered it I saw Banks directly after I had delivered it, and told him that I had delivered it;" he said "Turnbull was in the barge when I delivered it into the barge; Banks was standing alongside the barge tallying other goods"—after Banks and Turnbull were in custody I again saw Dunn and said "I have come to see you again in reference to the matter I was speaking to you about the other day; I give you another opportunity." (MR. BLACKWELL submitted that. those words amounted to a threat or promise and should exclude the statement. MR. GRAIN cited Reg. v. Halts and Culff, "Sessions Paper," Vol. XCIX., P.160, in support of his argument that the words did not amount to a threat. The COMMON SERJEANT ruled that it did not amount to a threat, and that the evidence was admissible.) He said "I have done nothing more than I was told to do by Banks, and I have only delivered one sack"—on 24th November I saw Banks in No. 3 warehouse in the Victoria Docks—I said "Banks, I want to speak to you with regard to the sack of wheat and the sack of bone-dust which were found in Turnbull's barge; it is a very serious

matter, and it will be necessary for you to be very careful what you say, as if it does go before a higher authority it may be made use of against you"—Banks said "About a quarter before 4 o'clock yesterday afternoon I received a delivery order for the delivery of 1 cwt. 3 qrs. of wheat-dust; I at once handed over the book to Dunn and sent him to Plantin, 'who will point it out to you.' I knew nothing more until I went to the barge and asked the lighterman Turnbull if he had received this sack of wheat-dust, and the lighterman said he had not. I then went in search of this sack of wheat-dust and found what I thought was the sack of wheat-dust in No. 8 warehouse; then I took the sack myself on a truck and delivered it to the lighterman Turnbull into his craft"—I said "There is something more with regard to a sack of wheat which was found there in the craft"—he said "I know nothing at all about a sack of wheat being found in the craft, and the bone-dust which I had delivered to Turnbull I believed to be a sack of wheat-dust, and had delivered it by mistake, but I afterwards went to the craft and helped to get out the bag of bone-dust with others"—I said "You went with Dunn to Plantin and must have known that the sack of wheat-dust had already been delivered"—he said "I was not with Dunn; he went to Plantin, and I did not go into No. 7 warehouse at all"—I brought Dunn, Banks, and Plantin face to face—Plantin first said he had already told me; then he said that Banks was with Dunn when he came to me for the sack of wheat-dust pointed out—Dunn said "Yes, that was so; we were together when we went to Plantin, Banks assisted me in getting the sack of wheat-dust down from the middle floor, No. 7"—Banks said "I was not there"—I said to Banks "What do you know about the lighterman Turnbull?"—he first of all said "I don't know anything at all about him; I don't know the man"—I said "It scarcely can be believed that you were in a public-house on Saturday drinking with a man whom you did not know, and drinking with the same man out of the same pot the day previous to that"—he said "I had known Turnbull 10 or 12 days ago when I was in the Thames Police"—I said "What did you know him as then?"—he said "I knew him as a foreman lighterman"—I said "In whose employ?"—he said "In Mr. Frey's employ"—I said "What do you know about Mr. Frey's employes?"—he said "They then went by the name of the 'Forty Thieves'"—I said "Then you well knew that you were in company with a man and drinking with a man whom you had known 10 or 12 years ago as a foreman over 40 thieves"—he said "Well, I won't admit I was drinking with him in the public-house"—on Monday, 26th November, I saw Turnbull on board his craft Nymph in the docks, and said "Turnbull, I have come to see you with reference to a sack of wheat and a sack of bone-dust which were found in your barge on 23rd and 24th November; it will be very necessary for you to be careful as to what you say, because it is a very serious matter. You know who I am, of course?"—he said "Oh, yes, I know you, and I have given up all my old tricks, and I knew I had to receive a small parcel from the granaries, and whilst I was lying at 29 shed taking in the goods there, foreman Banks came and said 'I have a small delivery for you, will you take them in here?' I said 'I shall be very glad to take them in here, it will save me moving my craft round the corner.' A few minutes after that a little man brought me one sack and went away; a few minutes after that he brought me the second sack; after delivering it he went away, and shortly after that the foreman Banks brought me the third bag.

I did not know what I had to receive, I had never seen the delivery order, and if he had brought me more goods I should have received it. "I have no recollection of anything more being said.

Cross-examined by. MR. BLACKWELL. I made a note of these conversations at the time, I have not got it here—I made a report to the solicitor—I am not and never have been a Metropolitan police officer—from first to last Banks has told the same story—I have been in the Company's service about thirty years—I knew nothing about Banks till this transaction except that he was delivery foreman—he was not in my custody when I put all the questions to him—I was investigating the matter—I believe I have always told the same tale—I believe before the Magistrate I said "They were well known as the 'forty thieves'"—he did not say "They were as well known as the' forty thieves'"—Dunn never denied he took one sack to the barge—I do not know much about these people's duties—I believe I said before the Magistrate that I told Banks "You went with Dunn to Plantin, and must have known the whereabouts of the bag"—I will not swear if I said "You must have known"—Banks denied he had been to Plantin—I do not know what his duty would be.

Cross-examined by. MR. GEOGHEGAN. Scotland Yard has no jurisdiction over me, the general manager of the Docks is my superior—as policeman there is no one to correct me—the general manager would visit a mistake on my shoulders if I made one—I made a note of this evidence to satisfy myself of what they said, I have not got a bad memory—I will not swear I have looked at the note since I made it—I did not have it when I gave evidence at the police-court or reported to the solicitor—it is in my office at the docks—I had not spoken to Tyler, Plantin, or Tallon when I had, the conversation with Turnbull—I have not spoken to Tyler nor to Tallon at all—on the 24th I saw Dunn, Plantin, Banks, and Robins—I first saw Bradley on the 26th November—I have not seen Horton or Heath at any time—I do not know when Turnbull was given into custody—I think it was nearly a month afterwards—Mr. Heath was present when these persons made these statements to me—he is outside, I think—perhaps I have given evidence in Courts of Justice once a year for the last thirty years—I know depositions are read over for the opportunity of persons correcting anything they have said or repeating anything omitted—I do not see the words "I have given up my old tricks" in my depositions—I will not swear if I used those words at the West Ham Police-court—I was the last witness called—it was said—Dicker and Hallmark, of the Metropolitan Police, took Turnbull into custody, I believe—I do not know if, after I had made these inquiries of him, Turnbull still came with his barge day after day to the docks, I should not like to swear he did not—matters of this sort, are put into my hands by the general manager to go into the facts and report—Colonel Martindale, of the Royal Engineers, is the general manager.

Cross-examined by Dunn. I believe you were taken on Christmas Eve—when the Magistrate ordered all witnesses out of Court the Solicitor for the Prosecution allowed me to remain in—I saw you on December 24th, the others I saw in November—I put down word for word in my pocket-book on the 24th November what you and every one else said—the pocket-book is in my office.

By the. COURT. Dunn said he had received instructions from Banks to deliver one sack, and that was all he had delivered.

By. MR. BLACKWELL. I think Banks continued in the Company's employment for three or four days after he made his statement to me, until I made my report—I did not make my report until I had seen the witnesses on the 26th—I do not know if there was a man in uniform standing by the barge when she was being loaded.

Re-examined. The Company's police in uniform are walking about the docks—I report to Colonel Martindale, and if I am requested, I send particulars to the Solicitors to the Dock Company—all persons taken into custody are handed over to the Metropolitan Police—we are only constables within the docks and have no power outside.

HALL HALLMARK (Constable). On 24th December I saw Turnbull on the barge Nymph, called him on to the quay, and read the warrant to him; it was that he would be charged with feloniously receiving a bag of wheat and a bag of bone dust, value 1l.—he said "All right, I am innocent"—he was taken to the station and the warrant read to him again—he said "It is the Dock Company people's fault; they put two bags into my barge by mistake"—on 24th December, about 6.30, I went to Martindale Road, and there saw Dunn—I had a warrant for his arrest; I read it to him—he said "I know nothing at all about it"—I took him to the station—the warrant was read again—he made no reply.

Cross-examined by. MR. GEOGHEGAN. I have been eight or nine years in the force—I reduce statements to writing at the time—I have the conversation in writing in my pocket—I refresh my memory at the police-court by looking at it there—I don't trust to my brain to carry long statements made by two or three men—I am responsible to my inspector—Colonel Martindale is not here.

FREDERICK DICKER (Detective Sergeant K). On 21st December I met Banks in Trinity Street—I said "I ama police-officer; I have a warrant for your arrest"—I read the warrant—he said "Very well; I have been expecting it for the last three weeks"—I took him to the station—the warrant was again read—he made no reply.

Cross-examined by. MR. BLACKWELL. I do not know he had been suspended for about three weeks before that.

SAMUEL HEATH . I am assistant warehouseman and am the superior of the delivery foremen, who are under my orders—I don't know how long Banks has been in the Company's service, or whether he came with a very high character from Colonel Beresford; the superintendent could tell; he is not here—shortly after he came he was promoted from being a labourer to being a delivery foreman—mistakes in the delivery of goods are not un frequent at the docks, no one is infallible—I only know of two of my men having been fined—I could not swear that not more than two had been fined—a police-officer patrols the quays all day long—I saw him there on 23rd November—he did not speak to me at all.

Cross-examined by. MR. GEOGHEGAN. That sack is not a merchant's but a Company's sack—a merchant sack has a brand on—the Company's brand is "L.S.K.D.," but a lot of the Company's sacks have no brand.

Re-examined. Some thousands of men are employed at the Victoria and Albert Docks alone.

Dunn's Defence. I am innocent of the charge of doing anything; I only

did what the foreman told me. If any of the foremen of other departments had told me to do anything I should have had to do it or be discharged.



TURNBULL then. PLEADED GUILTY* to a previous conviction of felony in December. 1868, at this Court— Six Years' Penal Servitude.

BANKS.— Fifteen Months' Hard Labour.


Before Robert Malcolm Kerr, Esq.

7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-231
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

Related Material

231. JOHN GATES (22) and EDWARD WIBLEY (19) , Breaking and entering the warehouse of Joseph Morton, and stealing 3/4 cwt. of bones and other articles, his property.

MR. HICKS Prosecuted.

JOSEPH MORTON . I am a marine store dealer, of 8, Bryant's Yard, Greenwich—I have a stable where I keep things—about 8 a.m. on 22nd December I went down and found the stable broken and missed a sack of rags, a sack of bones, a basket of fat, a quantity of metal, and some glass—they were all safe at 11 o'clock on the Friday night—Gates had been working for me—I employed Wiley to go with me to Beckenham on the Thursday—these two sacks (produced) are mine—there is no name on them.

GEORGE FRESHWATER . I am a costermonger, of 65, Rowe Street, Greenwich—about 5.30 a.m. on 21st December I saw the two prisoners close to prosecutor's stable—Wibley had a sack on his back half full, and was coming towards a barrow standing in the road—Gates came down with a sack on his back—I said to him "You are out early this morning;" he said "Yes, George, I have got to be at Forest Hill by 9 o'clock"—I cannot swear to these sacks.

JOSEPH JOYCE (Detective R). I apprehended Gates at 9 p.m. on 27th December in a public-house in Rowe Street, Greenwich—I told him he would be charged with stealing fat and bones out of Morton's stable; he said "I expected as much; I know who has put you on; I suppose you want me to round;. I shan't do nothing of the sort"—I took him to the station, and went back and found Wibley in the same street—I told him the charge, and took hon to the station.


Before Mr. Recorder.

7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-232
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

Related Material

232. WILLIAM PAGE (26) and HENRY BROWN (30) , Stealing two tarpaulins from a barge on the Thames.

MR. POLAND Prosecuted;. MR. DICKENS Defended.

WILLIAM OAKLEY . I am in the employ of Francis Williams, a master lighterman—on 25th October I had charge of the barge Fossick, No. 412—I left the Victoria Docks about 4.15, and brought her up at Railton and Williams's Wharf, and fastened her on the Greenwich side of the river alongside another barge opposite Greenwich Point about 9 p.m.—she was empty, except four tarpaulins which were in the hold, two open and two half open—I left no one in charge—I returned about 5 a.m., and missed the two tarpaulins which were half open—they were marked "F. Williams, 724," in red and white letters—on 10th December I saw two tarpaulins at

Woolwich Police-station, and identified one of them by a hole in the middle and the name, which had been tarred out, but I could trace it through—I cannot swear that the second is one which went out of the barge but it is like it, and it is one of Mr. Williams's; he has a good many—it has been new dressed and mended up.

Cross-examined. Mr. Williams has about 100 with the name on in exactly the same way, and some have holes in them—the letters are in tan yarn about a foot apart—one is very old—when they are re-tarred it is done right across the name; it is very thin—they all have 724 on them—a man was on board the next barge, but we went ashore together—other barges were lying at anchor within 100 yards.

HENRY NEWLAND . I live at Customs House Street, Victoria Docks—it is my business to book the barges in and out—on 24th October I booked out the empty large Fossick at 4.15 p.m.

THOMAS SMITH . I live at Abingdon Villa, Lower Woolwich Road—I formerly kept the Union Tavern, East Greenwich, and the prisoners were customers of mine; they are watermen and dredge men—I know Pears who was charged before the Magistrate—on Saturday, 29th September, I was talking to him outside the Horse and Groom, Woolwich Road and the prisoners Pulled up in a pony cart—Page said "Will you buy two old tarpaulins?"—I said "No; I have no use for them"—Pears said "What is paulins?"—I said "No; I have no use for them"—Pears said "What is it they want to sell?"—I said "Two old tarpaulins"—Pears said "They will suit Mr. Kelvey to cover his hay up"—he is a corn dealer—Page got out of the cart, and Pears said "What do you want for them"—Page said "30s.," and gave the measurement, but I did not see them—Pears went over the back of the court and looked at them—while they were making the deal some of my men came up and I left—it was just after 1 o'clock—Pears then came and spoke to me, and I lent him a sovereign, which he gave to Page—he gave him 26s. altogether—I then saw two tarpaulins doubled up at the back of the cart; one of the prisoners said "Where shall I take them to?"—Pears said "Take them down to my factory," and they drove away towards it—Pears made the deal without looking at them—I then went into the Horse and Groom with some friends, and afterwards saw them come back in a direction from the factory where Pears is employed—on the following Monday Pears made a statement to me, but the prisoners were not present—I heard early in December that Pears was arrested—I had been at Brown's house the night before—on 7th December Page came to my house and said "I hear you have been inquiring for me last night at Greenwich"—I said "Yes; you are the man who sold the tarpaulin to Mr. Pears, and you have got him into a lot of trouble; the tarpaulin has been claimed; it is no use your denying it, you are the man who sold them to him"—he said "I know I did; is Mr. Pears locked up?"—I said "Yes; but he is out on bail, Mr. Hughes has appeared for him"—I think he said that he got hem at some point—I think both the prisoners were at my house during that conversation, but I will not swear I advised them to see Mr. Hughes the solicitor—I saw them both in custody that evening, and was called as a witness.

Cross-examined. Here is an entry in my day book on 29th September, "Mr. Pears, cash lent 1l.," and or October 1, "Mr. Pears paid me back"—it was quite nine weeks after I lent him the 1l. that Pears was locked up—Brown remained in the cart, and had nothing to do with the deal; it

was Page who sold them—it was done quite openly; it was an open cart—I live six doors from there—there was no concealment of the tarpaulin—Page never denied it—as soon as I spoke to him he said "I know I sold them; I picked them up at the Point"—his business is dredging up coals—as soon as he heard that Pears was locked up he was much concerned, and said "What ought I do?"—he went to Mr. Hughes, who advised him to go before a Magistrate—I went to Brown's house the night before and inquired if Cook lived there; he generally goes by that name; and left a message there, and in consequence of that the sergeant requested me to go and find them out.

Re-examined. I have often lent Pears abash—I lent him another 1l. on 13th October—I honestly believe that it was on 29th September that the two men were in the cart with the tarpaulin—I don't think there is any doubt about it—I will swear it was September 29.

WILLIAM KELVEY . I deal in corn and wood at West Street, Charlton—I bought two tarpaulins on Monday morning; I forget the date, but I sold them to Mr. May on 31st October, which was about a week after—I saw them first on the Saturday previous at Harris's factory, where Pears was employed, rolled up in a room, and agreed to by them for 35s.—I paid a deposit of 5s., and they were brought to me by a lad—there was no bill—I kept them a week, and sold them to Mr. May for 48s., but only one has been taken away—I examined the other and traced the name of Williams on it—I saw that the end is sewn inside—I did not see the painting out outside.

Cross-examined. I had them about a week—I may have bought them on Monday, 22nd October, it must have been before 24th October—one was opened out when shown to me, but I saw no name—there is no paint, it is tarred like an ordinary tarpaulin—I saw no letters under the tar; you had to open it before you could see them.

Re-examined. The ends of yarn inside are not particularly plain—the 21st was Wednesday—Mr. May's foreman brought them.

WILLIAM HANDS . I am in the service of Mr. May, forage contractor—on 31st October, between 8 and 9 p.m., I went to Kelvey's, and saw two tarpaulins in the yard folded up—I agreed to buy them for 45s.—one was brought to my place and used on the wharf, and on 3rd December Rolfe came and looked at it, and took possession of it on the 4th—when my attention was called to it I could trace on it "F. Williams, 724."

Cross-examined. I never saw the name till it was pointed out.

GEORGE WRIGHT (Thames Police Sergeant). On Wednesday, 5th December, I went to Kelvey's premises at Charlton—he showed me a tarpaulin, and I examined it inside and out—by looking very carefully I could see the name of Williams outside, which had been tarred over, and 724 as well—on the inside the name Williams was stitched in yarn—this is it (produced)—I took Pears at the factory; he gave an explanation before the Magistrate, and was discharged—before he was discharged I took the prisoners on 8th December, and said "How do you account for these tarpaulins?" Page said "I picked them up at Greenwich Point"—I said "When?" he said "About six or seven weeks ago"—I said "I am told differently, but even if you did there is the owner's name and number on them, you had no right to sell them;" Page said "I admit selling them for 26s."—I said to Brown at the station "You said you were not there when

they were sold;" he said "Well, I was there, but I had nothing to do with it"—I examined the other, and traced the name outside and inside—Pears was discharged, and the other two sent for trial.

Cross-examined. When I took Page he said that the Magistrate told him to come on the following Wednesday, but I did not believe it.

HENRY DAVIS (Thames Policeman). On 8th December I was with Townsend near Pillar Road, and saw the prisoners—I said to Brown "I am a police-officer, and am going to take you in custody for being concerned with a man named Pears in stealing from a barge on the Thames two tarpaulins value 7l.;" he said "You have made a mistake, I know nothing about it, I have just met this man" (Page); "he has been telling me about it; it is not because I work with him sometimes that I am always with him; I was not with him when he sold these tarpaulins"—I said "I hear different, you answer the description of the man who was there, and you will have to go to the station"—going there he said three times that he was not with Page when the tarpaulins were sold, and he knew nothing about it—Smith pointed him out at the station, and pointed Brown out as one of the men who was there—Brown said "Yes, I was there, but I had nothing to do with it"—I found this paper with "Ellis, 724, Williams, Wapping," on it—Brown said "That has something to do with the barge we stopped of Mr. Williams's; I was not there when they were sold."

JOHN TOWMSEND (Thames Policeman). I was with Davis on 8th December in Pelton Street and saw Page—I said "We are police-officers; we are going to take you in custody on a charge of being concerned with Robert Pears with stealing two tarpaulins from a barge on the Thames"—he said "All right, I have seen the Magistrate to-day and it is all settled"—on the way to the station he said "I found the tarpaulins on Greenwich Point, and sold them for 26s.; it is not right to take that man," pointing to Brown, "he knew nothing about it; he was not with me"—I have known them about ten years as dredgermen, and have seen their boats at the wharf in question.

GEORGE WRIGHT (Re-examined). I know Greenwich Point, that is directly opposite where the barges was, and the river is about half a mile across—the two tarpaulins weigh 1 1/2 cwt. 30 lb.

JAMES CHARLES ROLFE . I am foreman for Mr. Williams, a lighterman—on 3rd December I examined these tarpaulins at May's Waif, Greenwich, and traced the name which had been tarred over, and I have no doubt they are Mr. Williams's—on 5th December I went to Kelvey's and saw another tarpaulin—the paint of that had been tarred over, and on the inside these the ordinary stitching—they are worth about 7l. or 9l. when new—one was very good—they are both the same size.

Cross-examined. There is a lot of dirt on one—it is a common thing to redress tarpaulins over the painted name, and a stranger might not then notice the name—we have a great many tarpaulins like these—they are sometimes blown overboard—they all bear the same number, 724—Mr. Williams owns about 62 barges.

Re-examined. These tarpaulins could not have been blown out of the empty barge, but when the barge is full they might do so.

Page, in his statement before the Magistrate, said that he found the tarpaulins floating at Greenwich Point on the river, and got them into his boat, and that Brown had nothing to do with it till he gave him the job to dry

them. Brown said that he drove Page to Old Charlton with the tarpaulins, and received half-a-crown for doing the job.

Page received a good character.


Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-233
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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233. HENRY FREMORE (29) , Feloniously wounding Alice Mead, with intent to do her some grievous bodily harm.

MR. HICKS Prosecuted.

ALICE MEAD . I live at 13, Newcastle Street, East Greenwich, with my father—the prisoner has been keeping company with me—a few days before 28th December we had a little quarrel—on that day, in consequence of something I heard, I went down the street and met the prisoner—I said to him "What have you come wandering down here for to-day, as people will say, as they had said before, that I was mad as well as you?"—he did not speak; he caught hold of me round the neck and I felt the knife at my throat—I holloaed, a gentleman came up and took the knife away from his hand—I saw it then; I had not seen it previously—I was cut here (pointing to the collar bone)—the skin was cut, but it did not bleed then; it has bled since—I had it strapped up at the police-station by the doctor—the prisoner was quite sober at the time—he did not tell me why he did it—I gave him no occasion to do it—he never threatened me before—the blow came very hard—the quarrel arose when we went to a friend's house, and he said they stated they could do with me as he had done, and I went and sat beside his mate, and he did not like it—he said he was an engine driver—he blows at the church with his mate.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. You promised me on 25th March you would marry me, and you did not, and then you promised it should be the Sunday after Christmas—the money you gave me I have put away for things for the home.

By the. COURT. I keep house for my father, a labourer—my mother is not living—there has been no impropriety between myself and the prisoner.

Re-examined. It was just a sweetheart's quarrel at first.

SARAH COTTON . I live at Newcastle Street, Greenwich, and am the wife of George Cotton, a labourer—I know the prisoner by sight, and I know Alice Mead by her living close to me—on 26th December the prisoner stopped and spoke to me while I was standing at my door—I spoke to him first; I said "Alice has just been down the street, and gone back again"—he said "Yes, I have seen her, and I will see her again"—he came across the road to me then, and said "I have been a good friend to her as well as treating her, but she has given me the cold shoulder; but I will do for her, I will cut her throat, and I will do for the aunt as well, for the aunt is at the bottom of all this"—I said "Oh, cool yourself, and think better of it, cool your temper"—he said "It is no use talking, I have made up my mind; I am determined, if I wait here till 3 to-morrow morning"—then I went indoors and shut the door—about 20 minutes afterwards, when I went to see Mr. Webb, I saw the prisoner in the street—he said to Mr. Webb "Have you got a knife you can let me have, master?"—Mr. Webb said "No, I haven't one about me"—the prisoner said "If you have, governor, let me have it, and I will give you a bob for it"—he then went up the street, and Mr. Webb went down—to the best of my belief he was sober.

JOHN MCGABBIN , M.R.C.S., L.R.C.P., L.R.C.S. I was called to the

police-station on 28th December, about a quarter past 12 midday—I saw the prosecutrix there—I examined her, and found a wound on the left side of her neck about half an inch long, going just through the skin, and extending upwards about half an inch—I could pass a probe upwards, showing that the skin had been separated from the parts underneath in an upward direction—I saw the linsey dress which the knife had gone through—I did not see her jacket—I saw no blood then, but it has bled since; it was in a dangerous place, near the large arteries—this knife would cause the wound—it seemed to me it was done with not much violence—the wound is healing, but very slowly.

By the. COURT. She is in excitement and pain now, not only from the wound.

JAMES WALKER (Policeman R. 175). On 28th December I received information, and in consequence went to Fountain Road, where I saw the prisoner held by William Conolon, who handed me this knife and said, "This man has stabbed a woman"—I said "Where is the woman?"—Conolon said "She is down the street somewhere, I don't know where"—I took the prisoner into custody, and the knife from Conolon—I marched the prisoner along towards 13, Newcastle Street, and saw the prosecutrix in the passage there—as soon as she saw the prisoner she said, "That man stabbed me"—she opened her dress, and showed me a small cut on the side of her neck—when the prisoner saw it he said "Yes, you have put me to it"—I told her to come to the police-station—on the way to the station the prisoner said "I have done it, but God Almighty will forgive me"—he was charged at Park Road Police-station—at that time he had been drinking, but knew what he was about.

The Prisoner's Statement before the Magistrate."She has driven me to it, and I was intoxicated at the time; I had been drinking in the morning."

Prisoner's Defence. I have been a very good friend to her, and she drove me to do it. I did not intend to do her any bodily harm; it was more to frighten her than to do her any injury.

GUILTY of feloniously wounding, with intent to do grievous bodily harm, — Five Years' Penal Servitude.


Before Mr. Justice Hawkins.

7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-234
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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234. ALICE ELLEN NORTH (22) was indicted for, and charged on the Coroner's Inquisition with, the wilful murder of Elizabeth Emily North.

MR. HORACE AVORY Prosecuted;. MR. GEOGHEGAN defended, at the request of the. COURT.

ELIZABETH COLLIER . I live at College Ride, Bagshot, and am the wife of Matthew Collier—I have known the prisoner about eight years; she has been a domestic servant—she came to stay at my house on 25th October last—she had an infant with her nearly three weeks old—she told me that she had come from Chertsey Union—she stayed with me till 2nd November with the baby—while she was staying with me she would sometimes say to the baby "You shan't trouble me or any one else long"—that was when she used to sit and worry herself about different things, and having no home—I

knew that she was in trouble—I can't exactly say how many times she has said that, but several different times she used the same words—on 2nd November she took the baby away from my house to her sister's, as she told me—she said she was going there—she left about 3.30 in the afternoon—she said she was going to her sister's at Naphill; that is about eight miles from Bagshot—I noticed how the child was dressed when she took it away—it had on a nightgown, a flannel pinch (that is a back flannel, a square of flannel which is put on the body), a little hood of flannel round its shoulders, a bandage round its body, and two little shirts—I cannot say whether they were both on or not; I gave her one of the shirts—I cannot say whether she put one in her pocket or whether she put both on the baby—one was on the baby when she brought it to my house—I think that was all that the child had on—I think that it had on its shoulders some cerise ribbons, and it had a shawl—the prisoner returned to my house the same afternoon—she had not the baby with her then—she brought the shawl back with her which the baby had had on, and I said to her "Alice, that looks bad to bring the shawl back"—that was the first thing I said to her—she said "My sister would not allow me to leave the shawl, as she has two old ones of mother's, and if she wanted to take the baby out she could wrap her in one of them"—I asked her what arrangement she had made with her sister about the baby—she told me that her sister was going to keep it at her own expense, and all she had to do was to find it in clothes—that was all that was said about the baby—I cannot recollect her saying anything else to me about it—she stayed with me till the 9th November—when she went away she said she was going to Aldershot—she did go to Aldershot; I went with her, to get her a situation—she got one at 40, Union Street, at a cook's shop—it was called Archer's Dining Room—she went to live there on 9th November—I next saw her on 11th December at my house—that is about 10 miles from Aldershot—I said "Well, Alice, have you heard from the baby?"—she said "Yes"—I said "Is it all right"—she said "Yes"—nothing else was said—she left my house on 11th December saying she was going back to Chertsey—she said she was with this man again that she had the baby by—I had a little girl of hers keeping for her during the time she was at Aldershot, and she came to see this child and took it down to the village, and she said she was with him again, and she took the child down to him in the village and came back again to me in the afternoon—I had seen some man with her that day; she was going to Chertsey to live with him again—he came to my house with her in the afternoon—I knew him by being about where I live—he goes by the name of Bob Brown—he came with her to my house about half-past 2 o'clock that afternoon—nothing was said by the prisoner about the child or about this man in his presence—nothing was said that day about him—I had the little girl with me for some time—the prisoner brought her to me before she went into the Union to have another one—I had her some time during October—it was nearly four years old—I think it must have been in September when she brought the little girl to me, it must have been in the early part of September—she was very likely then to have this baby, and the man had left her—she came and asked me if I would take to the little girl—I had half-a-crown a week while it was with me, and I kept it with that money until she took it away—she said that child belonged to a man named Holder living at Balham—I next saw her

on 26th December—she came to my house again and took the little girl away with her, she said she was going to take it to Chertsey—that was all the conversation I had with her on 26th December—on 28th December, in consequence of something I heard, I went to the police-station at Bagshot—I there saw Police-constable Player—he showed me some clothing—these things (produced) are the things he showed me—they are a night-gown, two little hoods, a bandage, two little shirts, two napkins, a little flannel hood, and a flannel pilch—I identify all these things as being the things that it was taken away in—on the 30th I saw the dead body of a child at the King's Arms at Bagshot, and I identified it as the body of the prisoner's baby.

Cross-examined. The cerise ribbons were not found with the clothes, the prisoner had put those on the baby for ornament to make it look nice—except when she was in depressed spirits she was very fond of the baby, at all times—she was fretting about the man Brown who had left her—she was then in very low spirits—she was always very fond of the little girl—she seemed despondent when she said this about the child not being a trouble to any one—I said to her "How can you talk like that, Alice?"—I know Naphill, and I knew he prisoner had a sister living there—I know where Lightwater Grounds are; it is part of Chobham Common—it would be in the way of a person going from Bagshot to Naphill, and one could go over it—Bagshot Heath is rather exposed ground, and is very bare and bleak—the wind was rather cold that day—none of the clothes in which the baby was wrapped were new; some of them were in a very poor condition—I do not know the exact spot where the body was found, it must be quite two miles and a half from my house—it is a fact that the man Brown deserted her—the prisoner was very poor, she was a very hard-working girl—I do not know her age—the child was in good health when it went away on the 2nd November—I did not know that it was suffering from a cold—I would not like to say it was or it was not, if the mother says it had a bad cold I would not like to contradict her.

By the. COURT. I could not say whether it had a cough, I never saw it cough—I did not see that anything was the matter with it—if it had a cold it had not got cold enough to show it—I do not know whether it had a cold or not—I identified the baby by its features—I did not say anything before the Magistrate about Brown having called on the 11th of December—of course I remember his calling—what I asked the prisoner on the 11th of December was if she had heard from her baby, and she said "Yes"—Brown was not present then.

HARRIET HOLMES . I am the wife of Thomas Holmes, and live at Windlesham, about a mile and a quarter from Bagshot—I have known the prisoner for some time—she came to my house on the 2nd of November, about half-past 5 in the evening—she had nothing with her—she was crying very much—I asked her what she was crying for, she said she had taken her baby away to Naphill—I asked her if she had taken it to her sister, she said "No"—she said she had taken it to a woman at Naphill, and the woman was going to look after it for 1s. 6d. a week, she said she must go back and fetch it—that was all she said—she then left, and I did not see her any more—she was not in the house two minutes—in going from Naphill to Bagshot you might pass through Windlesham, it is a straight road—I do not know how far it is from my house to Naphill;

I know Lightwater Bridge, that is about a quarter of a mile from my house, it is nearer to Bagshot than Naphill.

Cross-examined. she was greatly agitated and crying—she always gave me the impression of being a very kind mother, she was always very good to the little baby.

Re-examined. she had a shawl on her arm when she came.

GEORGE MARTIN . I live at Windlesham—on the morning of the 25th December I found some baby's clothes on the side of Lightwater Bridge in a ditch, it was done up in a bundle in a flannel—it was a wet ditch—the bundle was wet—I got it out and undid it, and saw some baby's clothing—I should know them again—these produced are they—I examined them so as to be able to know them again—I did not see any marks on them—I let the things lay there by the side of the road, I left them there untied; it was about 10 o'clock in the morning—I left them and went back again about 12 o'clock, they were there then as I had left them—nobody had touched them as I know of—a lot of people came down and saw them at 10 o'clock—I afterwards saw the clothes at the King's Arms at Bagshot—the policeman had them then.

Cross-examined. I did not see the policeman take them from the ground—the road over Lightwater Bridge leads from Bagshot to Naphill—the ditch is quite close to the road; Windlesham lies out of the road a little—you would not go through Windlesham in going from Bagshot to Naphill; you would pass Lightwater Bridge—Windlesham lies a little more to the left—the bridge goes over a stream—the ditch was full of water; it runs by the side of the road; it is almost level with the road—you could jump across it from the meadows; there are meadows on the other side; there are meadows on each side of the road—I saw the bundle at once; it was not floating in the water—it was not hidden under the bank or anything—I didn't hunt about to find it.

Re-examined. I was going over the bridge—I don't think I had been over the bridge during the previous week.

By the. COURT. It was as I was going over the bridge that I saw the bundle—I had been over the bridge within the previous week or two.

JOHN HUMPHERY . I am a farmer, living at Windlesham—on Saturday, 29th December, I was in Lightwater grounds, about 400 yards from the bridge—some of the ground is common ground, and some of it is cultivated—my brother was with me; he called my attention to the body of a child in a small pool of water where some turf had been dug out—there were some trees round it—we could not see the face of the child, only the back of the head and the back; it was lying on its face—the water was about three or four inches deep; it was water and mud—the water was very shallow—there was more mud than water—there was no clothing on the body—I gave information to Police-constable Player—he came back with me to the place, and he took the child out and took it away—I did not see any marks about the place, only one footmark, when the policeman took the child out of the water—that was at the side of the water where the child lay—I should think that footmark would be about four yards from the body of the child—that was the only footmark that I saw—it was boggy ground—I didn't see any other footmarks—it was rather a small footmark.

Cross-examined. I spoke to Constable Reed before I spoke to Player—it was about 10.30 when I spoke to Player—it was about 8.30 in the

morning when I found the body—I cannot say the time exactly—my brother did not go with me to the station—it was not till two hours after I had seen the body that I saw the footmark—there are some cultivated grounds about there, about a quarter of a mile from where the body was found—they cut turf sometimes about there—I don't know how long the turf had been cut—there are not always a lot of people on that spot—it is a common—people have no right to go there—it is my father's property—people do go through there—the turf had been cut with my consent for some years—there are a few rabbits on the common.

Re-examined. I go over there myself when I have business there—I had been almost close to the pool of water a day or two before, but I did not notice anything there.

Cross-examined by. MR. GEOGHEGAN. I had a dog with me—my brother goes over the grounds if he likes—one of the dogs was a retriever and the other a terrier—I had them with me when I found the child—I have them with me when I go shooting rabbits—they do not belong to me; both are my brothers.

By the. COURT. I had been continually on the grounds for three or four weeks before this, but not just on that spot where the child was found—nobody else had been there as far as I know of—the footmark seemed as if it had been there some time; there was rain on it—I should think it had been there more than a week or two by the look of it—there was nothing that led me to say how long it had been there—Player saw it first, before I did.

GEORGE PLAYER (Surrey Constabulary. 100). I am stationed at Bagshot—on 25th December, about 2.30 in the afternoon, I went to Lightwater Bridge and found the baby-clothing that is now produced—it was lying on the grass by the side of the road—they were then loose, not tied in a bundle—I took them to the police-station—on 28th December I saw Elizabeth Collier at the police-station—I then showed her these baby-clothes—on 29th December I received some information from Humphreys about 10.30 in the morning, in consequence of which I went with him to the Lightwater Grounds, and there saw the body of a child; it was about a quarter of a mile from the bridge—it was lying face downwards in water, the body was nearly submerged in water and mud, except just the back part of the head, and the hips and shoulders were out of the water—I took it out of the water, and it was taken to the King's Arms, Bagshot—Mrs. Collier saw it there on the following day, the 30th—there was nothing on the child when I found it—Lightwater Bridge is in Windlesham parish; the village is a little way off the road; Bagshot and Windlesham is all one parish—the boy Martin's description is correct.

Cross-examined. There is a branch road to Windlesham, to the left from Bagshot Road—that road is about 600 yards from the bridge, I should say; I have not measured it—in going to Windlesham the place where the child's body was found would not be on the right, but on the left, and about a quarter of a mile from the road—I have never had a case at the Assizes—there has not been any plan prepared of this locallity that I am aware of—the body of the child was first taken to the White Hart and then to the King's Arms—it was left there in the evening, and I took it to the station in the morning in a basket—Elizabeth Collier saw the clothes, and said something to me—I gave King information that she had identified

the clothing—if he saw the prisoner on the evening of the 29th he would have known what Elizabeth Collier had told me in the daytime.

Re-examined. It was on the 28th that Elizabeth Collier identified the clothes—she did it in my presence—it was on the 28th that I gave information to King—I saw him in the evening of the 29th, about 8 or 9 o'clock.

By the. COURT. I saw the footmark first—I should say it was about two yards from where the body was found—I did not measure it—the heel was distinct; not much more—the soil was very soft; you could see it was a heel—it was a distinct impression—it did not appear so very fresh; I should say it had been there several days; I should say within a week—it pointed along the side, not exactly towards the spot where the body was; as if the person was walking by the side of it—I could see the body of the child quite well in walking in the direction were the footmark was—I looked for other footmarks, but could not find any more except where the witnesses had been—this was a distinct footmark from all the others—the pool had about the usual quantity of water in it as it has in winter time—I very seldom pass that way; perhaps not once in twelve months, because it is boggy land—I should say it is about a twelvemonth since I was in that direction—there is one thing I wish to recall; I did not see Sergeant King in the evening, I saw him early next morning, the 30th, about 11 o'clock, not on the 29th.

EDWIN JOHN KING (Police Sergeant). I am stationed at Chobham—I first received a communication in this matter from Police-constable Player on 28th December last—in consequence of that I first of all went to Naphill to make inquiries, and on the following morning, the 29th, I went to Chertsey—I there saw the prisoner—she was not in custody—she was at Fircroft, Chertsey, where she was then living—I was in uniform—I said to her "I have come to speak to you respecting your youngest child;" she said "That is in London with a friend of mine"—I said can you give me the address of that friend?"she said "No, I don't want any one to know that, as the man Brown that I am living with is the father of it, but never would own it, and I don't want him to know where it is"—I then cautioned her; I said "I am about to put some questions to you about the child, and you must be very careful how you answer them, as I may have to give them in evidence against you at some other time"—I had not taken her into custody at that time, I had not made up my mind to do so—I said "There has been some child's clothing found near Lightwater Bridge, and they have been identified as belonging to your child; can you account for their being there?" she said "Yes, I can"—she began to cry, and said "I have done wrong, and I must suffer for it"—I then said "You must go with me to the station and be detained there while I make further inquiries"—I took her to the station.

By. MR. GEOGHEGAN. I did not consider her then in my custody; I mean I had not charged her—I said "You must go to the station"—she was in my custody.

(Upon. MR. AVORY asking "Did she say anything?". MR. GEOGHEGAN submitted that any statement by the prisoner after this in answer to the officer's questions was not admissible. MR. JUSTICE HAWKINS could not exclude it.)

By the. COURT. She said she had not seen the child since November—I had said to her "Don't put yourself out, if the child is all right there is no need of it"—that was all I said—on arriving at the station she

was put in a cell and searched—I went back to the cell—I heard her ask to see me again; I was in the passage, a few doors away from the cell—she asked the female who was searching her, constable Granger's wife; she is not here, she is at Chertsey—I heard the prisoner say to her "Where is Mr. King? can I see him again?"—the constable who was standing in the passage turned round and said "She wants to speak to you"—I went back to the cell—she was then crying very much—Mrs. Granger had been in the cell with her about five minutes—I could hear what was said—all I heard Mrs. Granger ask her was what she had in her pockets and so on—I did not hear Mrs. Granger say to her that it would be better to tell me everything—I believe I heard all she said—I never heard those words used—the first thing she said was "What have you about you?"I heard nothing said about speaking the truth—I have never spoken to Mrs. Granger since, or seen her—constable Granger heard the conversation, he was standing in the passage; he is not here—I did not hear Mrs. Granger say it would be better for her to tell all about it, or words to that effect—those words might have been spoken without my hearing them if they had been spoken in a very low tone—constable Granger could hear better than me, he was standing at the cell door—a quarter of an hour might have elapsed between her saying she had never seen the child since November and her sending for me to the cell—I don't remember that in that quarter of an hour she said anything to contradict the fact that she had seen the child last in November; I don't think she did, if she had it would have struck me as a contradiction—I am almost positive she did not, I should not like to swear it—I made a note of this conversation; I have it here (producing it)—I did not enter the last—I took down her reply to the charge—I have no other notes than these—this was written in pencil about an hour after it took place—this was her reply to the charge (producing another paper)—this was written at the same time as the other—I did not write it all on the same paper because I had not sufficient room—when I went to the cell she was crying very much—I have no note of what she said then—constable Granger was standing in the passage at the time; I believe he could hear it—Mrs. Granger was gone then, she came out as I went in.

By. MR. AVORY. When I went into the cell the prisoner said "Oh, Mr. King, do you think I shall be hung?"—I said "I hope not; is the child dead?"—she said "Yes, it is dead"—I said "Does Brown know it?"—she said "He knows it is dead, but I never would tell him anything about it"—I said "I shall have to search for the child; if you can say at all where it is, it will save me a great deal of trouble in searching for it"—I would not say whether I said "save me," or "save us," I believe I said "me;" I won't swear it—she said "can't tell you, only that I would sooner go with you and show you where it is"—I said "I should not like to take you anywhere in the state you are now in"—she then sat crying for a few moments and said "It is in a bog among some fir-trees, about a quarter of a mile from where the clothes were"—I then said "You have been cautioned before, and I now caution you again, and whatever you say will be taken down and used in evidence against you. You must now consider yourself in custody on a charge of killing your child"—in reply to that she said "I was drove to do what I have done through that man Brown, and he ought to suffer as well as

me; he left me in July when I had my trouble before me, and came back when he thought it was over. I came out of the Union when I had only been confined three weeks; I tried hard to get a day's work but could not, as every one turned their backs on me; I thought I would sooner do that than go back to the Union, and I went to Aldershot and got a place at Archer's dining-rooms"—that was all—after that I went to Bagshot—I saw Player on the following day—I saw the dead body of a female child in a shed at the back of the White Hart beerhouse.

By the. COURT. It was about 12.45 on the 29th when I left the prisoner—I was with her a little over half an hour at the house and the station, and about five minutes in the cell—this note was written on the same day about 2 o'clock, not in any one's presence—I wrote it while I was at the railway station waiting for the train.

Cross-examined. I have never been in the Metropolitan Police force; I am not subject to Scotland Yard—I reduced the conversation into writing for my own information, to refer to if I wanted to; it was not because I was in doubt as to what was said—what I wrote down there is correct—I did not refer to it at the police-court—I did not hand it in, or say that I had taken it—I did not mention it at all; this is the first time I have produced it in Court—I have given evidence before, at the Assizes, not in a murder case—this is not the only instance in which I have put into writing what a prisoner has said—I have not always taken down the conversation, I trusted to my memory—I could have trusted to my memory for the whole of this—I did not take every word down that took place in the cell; I could have done so—she said "I had only been confined three weeks"—I am not sure that it was not" the child was only three weeks old"—that was in reply to the charge in the cell—I charged her in the cell—I told her she must consider herself in custody; the Superintendent entered the charge afterwards—he was out in the town while this was going on in the cell; he had Just gone out in his cart and it was uncertain when he would return—I made a mistake, when I said that she said "I had only been confined three weeks"—her expression was "My child was three weeks old"—what I wrote down is a mistake—I had this in my possession when I gave evidence at the police-court—I did not refer to it there, or before the Coroner—the expression she made use of was "I went to Aldershot and got 'place' at Archer's dining-rooms"—I may have said before the Coroner that she said "I got a 'situation,'" I could not say which it was—what I wrote down there is correct—if I said "situation" that is another word for place—when I asked her to say where the child was, she said "I cannot tell any one that"—I formally considered her in custody when I told her she must consider herself in custody on a charge of killing her child—that was just before she made the statement in reply to the charge, when she was being detained—I had heard then from Player that some clothes had been found—I went to Chertsey with that knowledge—I simply went to ascertain if the child was safe; I had no information whatever.

Re-examined. At the time she made this statement I did not know that the body of the child had been found.

By the. COURT. I made no other memorandum than those I have produced—I have generally a very good memory—I have seen these memorandums several times since I made them—I have not read them over this morning; I did yesterday, simply to refresh my memory—I read them over before

going before the Coroner—I was never asked anything there about the notes, and I did not speak of them—I did not show them to constable Granger; I have not seen him since; I believe he is still at Chertsey—I could not say whether he heard the conversation in the cell; I think he must have heard it—I have never had the opportunity of seeing him since—I am six miles from him—I could have made an opportunity to see him; he was living at Chertsey at the time—I did not know him before; he had only been there a fortnight—the prisoner has a sister at Naphill—I went there and saw her, and made inquiries of her, on the evening of 28th December—I did not see any other relations of the prisoner at Naphill; that was the only relation she had living there—I saw no friend of hers there; I did not make inquiry for any—I did not know that she had any other friend there except the sister—I was present when Harriet Holmes was examined before the Magistrate—I could not say that I heard her evidence clearly—I did not read what she said—she told me before she was examined that the prisoner had told her that she had taken the child to a woman at Naphill—I did not see any woman friend of the prisoner's there—I did not make that inquiry—I made no endeavour to find out whether there was such a woman; I had no reason to think there was.

JOHN FRANCIS STAFFORD . I am a registered medical practitioner, at Windlesham—on 29th December, about 6 o'clock in the evening, I was fetched by Sergeant King to the White Hart, and was there shown the dead body of a female child, which appeared to be between three and four months old at that time—I formed a judgment by its general appearance that it had been dead between one and two months—the child appeared to me to be older than it turns out to be—it was a well-nourished child—on examining the body I found the skin on the legs, feet, arms, and hands bleached; the abdomen was blue; the face and head was reddish; the skin was peeling off the feet and toes, also off the pubis, and slightly off the head—I noticed some marks on the body, one on the back part of the head, a little to the left side, somewhat slightly larger than half a-crown, circular, of a' punched-out appearance, removing the skin and muscle down to the bone—there was a similar mark on the side of the left buttock of the same size, and a similar one on the right—I believe those marks to be simply the result of decomposition—I found no marks on the body which in my judgment were not the result of decomposition—I found no marks of violence—there were two other marks—I must explain that I cannot swear positively in some of these instances, because the body was so far decomposed; putrefaction had set in considerably—on 1st January I made a post-mortem examination—the lungs were congested, but they were not gorged; the right side of the heart contained some blood; the left side was empty; the stomach was distended; it contained an ash-coloured fluid, which might have been milk mixed with dirty water; that is merely suggestion—there was nothing in the post-mortem examination which enabled me to assign the cause of death—there was nothing in the condition of any of the organs to account for death—the only inference I might possibly draw from the state of the lungs was that the child might have died from exposure. Q. Supposing the child to have been placed face downwards in a pool of muddy water, such as has been described, was there any appearance wanting which you did not find? A. Yes; had if

been placed in the water recently there were appearances wanting. I mean by recently, before decomposition had set in; say a few days—there were indications wanting of a death by drowning—I cannot, say that it was not alive when it was placed there—I cannot form an opinion upon that point one way or the other, owing to the decomposition—that is the opinion I must give from the non-appearance of positive evidence.

Cross-examined. The skin was bleached—I cannot say that that is an appearance often found in death from exposure—I have not had enough experience to enable me to speak of it—decomposition had set in about the head, not about the face; I think it had in the throat, I am not sure—I think it had in the stomach, I am not sure—the lips were not compressed, they were slightly open—from being some time in the water the flesh would come easily off with the touch, that is one of the signs which enabled me to determine the length of time the body was there—I saw the body before it was removed to the station and to the King's Arms—I went first with Sergeant King to the White Hart—I cannot say whether the child was alive or dead when in was placed in the water.

Re-examined. I did not upon the post-mortem examination alter the opinion I had formed about the age of the child—that was an opinion I formed on the view of the body, and that is the opinion I form now—from my examination of the body if I had been asked how old the child was I should have said between three and four months.

By the. COURT. My opinion on that subject was free from doubt, still children vary so much—it would be an exceptional thing for a child three weeks old to appear like one of three or four months—I would not say it is very exceptional; I think I have known such a case—I cannot give such an instance—I have seen fine children born—the hair of a young child comes off after a time—there was hair on this child—there are indications of drowning which I say were wanting—there was no water in the lungs—a very common indication of drowning is excoriation on the fingers and nails; there were no traces of that, I looked for them—the hands and fingers were in a condition to enable me to form an opinion as to whether excoriation had ever existed—there was no dirt about the hands; the tongue looked dirty, discoloured by external dirt, but no mud—mud in the mouth is a very common thing, I found none here, I should have expected to do so if a living body was placed on its face in a muddy pond—there was no other wanting indication—an inference might be drawn from the state of the heart and lungs that the child had died from drowning—to some extent indications of drowning were wanting, the lungs were congested, not gorged; that might happen during life, from cold, and a variety of causes—there was nothing that I observed in the body which was inconsistent with the fact that the child might have died a natural death, nor anything inconsistent with the fact of its being placed in the water after death—I should say it had been in the water between one and two months, more than one and decidedly less than two; that I can swear to positively—I do not think that all the appearances I saw could have been presented by its having been in the water a full month, I incline to the belief that it was nearly two months, it is impossible to say to a day—the body of a young child would become decomposed somewhat quicker than that of an adult—I have had no personal experience of the condition of the bodies of children that have been in the water for so long a period as a month—there were indications here which enable me to say with certainty that the child had been

there as long as a month; the skin was peeling off—after a month it begins to peel off; that would be so in the case of an adult.

By the. JURY. I know Lightwater Bridge—the road over it is a highway—it is not a place very much frequented—I should think twenty or thirty people would be going over it in a day—it is the high road from Bagshot to Guildford, it leads to a common which is not very much frequented.


7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-235
VerdictGuilty > unknown

Related Material

235. GEORGE BALDWIN (26) was indicted for, and charged upon the Coroner's Inquisition with, the wilful murder of George Hoare.

MR. BURNIE Prosecuted;. MR. WARBURTON Defended.

CLARA POWELL . I live at 73, Smith Street, Kennington—I am a single woman, and am the daughter of Emma Powell—she has been living with the deceased George Hoare as his wife for ten years, and was known as Mrs. Hoare—I was in service at No. 4, Camberwell New Road—I slept there—George Hoare was employed at the Lambeth Water Works, he was 49 years of age—the prisoner was employed at the same works—he had known father for a good many years—on Wednesday evening, the 12th December, I went home to see my mother, I did not find her at home, and I went to the Duke of York public-house in Camberwell New Road about half-past 9—I there saw father, mother, the prisoner, and Mr. Franks, who also works at the water-works—I stopped a quarter of an hour with them, and then went back to where I was in service—mother and the prisoner came along with me, it was about ten minutes' walk—we left the deceased and Franks at the public-house—mother said good-bye to me at the gate, and the prisoner said "Good night, I might not see you no more"—that was all that passed, and I went in—the prisoner was not drunk; he had had some drink, but he did not seem any the worse for it.

By the. COURT. I do not know whether the prisoner and mother had been talking on the road—he asked me how I had been getting on at my place and I told him very well.

Cross-examined. They had a quart of beer in the Duke of York, and they all drank out of it—I have known the prisoner some time and have seen a good deal of him—he was always a very peaceable man—I don't know that he is subject to fits; he and father were great friends—there was nothing strange about him when he said good night to me—I thought his remark about seeing me no more was rather funny—he did not say it in a strange manner—he was not any the worse for drink when I left him, as far as I could see—that was as near 10 o'clock as possible.

EMMA POWELL . I live at 73, Smith Street, Kennington, and am the mother of the last witness—I had for 10 years been living with George Hoare as his wife—he was not the father of the last witness, she used to call him father—I have two boys—I have known the prisoner as a friend of Hoare's for seven or eight years—on Wednesday evening, 12th December, about half-past eight, the prisoner called at our house and said my husband was wanted and they went out together a few minutes afterwards—they had been in the habit of going out together to have a glass in the evening—they came back and went to the Duke of York, I saw them there—I went with them and our lodger, Elizabeth Dartnell, and Walter Franks—he works for the same firm; he came in with the prisoner—we

got to the Duke of York about a quarter to 9 o'clock—the men were not quite sober, including my husband and the prisoner—they appeared to know what they were saying and doing; they walked straight—I and Mrs. Dartnell had some rum and shrub at the Duke of York—the men had ale, I can't how much, whether it was one, two, or three quarts—while we were there my daughter came in—after a quarter of an hoar I and the prisoner went with her to the place where she was in service—I said good night to her at the gate—I did not hear what the prisoner said—he and I then went back to the Duke of York—the deceased had then gone from there to the Skinner's Arms, which is just opposite—Mrs. Dartnell and Franks had gone home—I and the prisoner went to the Skinner's Arms and we all had some ale there, I can't say how much—we left there, just before 11 o'clock, and all three went straight to our house—Hoare was much the worse for drink then, he did not walk quite straight—the prisoner did not appear so much the worse for drink as Hoare—I did not notice him walking otherwise than straight—we all went into Mrs. Dartnell's room—up to that time there had been no disagreement of any kind that I heard of, there were only my husband, the prisoner, Mr. and Mrs. Dartnell, and myself in the room, no one else—Mr. Dartnell went and got three pints more ale; that was drunk by all of us, we all had our share—that was all the ale that was fetched—some songs were sung by Mrs. Dartnell, her husband, and the prisoner—about 12 o'clock my husband went up to bed—he and I occupied one bed and the two boys another in the front room upstairs above Mrs. Dartnell and also a back room downstairs—the Dartnells had the front room downstairs and the back upper room—a few minutes after my husband had gone up he called out "Emma, are you coming to bed?"—I said "Yes, in a minute"—I then went upstairs, followed by the prisoner, and wished Hoare good-night, because being drunk he still kept calling—the prisoner merely said good night also—he did not say why he came upstairs—my husband did not say anything to me—the prisoner said "Good night," and went out again, and we came down stairs again to Mrs. Dartnell's room—Mr. Dartnell persuaded the prisoner to go home—he said "It is getting late; you will get no tram; you had better go home"—he lived in Cornwall Road, Brixton—I don't know what he said—he did not seem much the worse for drink at that time—he said "I must go up and wish old George good night once more"—it was about a quarter of an hour or 20 minutes after we came downstairs again that Dartnell spoke to him about going home—we had been talking in the meantime—he then went upstairs by himself—in about five minutes he came down and stood in the back room; our room—I was still in Mrs. Dartnell's room—as he was coming down the stairs I heard him say "I have done for the old b——at last"—on hearing that I and Mr. and Mrs. Dartnell went into the back room to him and saw him there—I don't remember whether anything was said—Mr. Dartnell went upstairs to see what was done, and then Mrs. Dartnell and I cried out murder—an alarm was given, and a constable came directly, and after that the doctor and the inspector came, and then I went upstairs and saw my husband in bed with his throat cut.

Cross-examined. The two children were in the bedroom with my husband—the prisoner and my husband had been very great friends for years—I only knew the prisoner by his being on the same firm—I don't know that he has been constantly subject to fits—he has always

borne the character of a very peaceable well-behaved man—I could not say how much drink he had had that night—we were not in the Duke of York more than a quarter of an hour or 20 minutes—he was only up in the bedroom about five minutes.

FRANK HOARE . I am nine years old—the last witness is my mother—the deceased was my father—on the night my father died I went to bed at 7 o'clock with my younger brother—some time after I heard my father and mother go out—I heard them come in again—I was lying awake—after that I heard singing and dancing in Mrs. Dartnell's room—after a time father came upstairs by himself; he undressed all but a worsted jacket, and laid down on the bed—my bed was not far from his—after that mother and Mr. Baldwin came up—I don't know what they said to father—he spoke to them—they went down again—I afterwards saw Mr. Baldwin in my father's room again; he was alone then—father was sleepy; he was lying down in bed on his pillow—Mr. Baldwin came up, and I saw him cut my father's throat—he catched hold of my father's forehead and then pulled him over and cut his throat with a knife—I saw the knife—he did not say anything to father before he cut his throat—I did not hear him speak in the room, and I did not hear father speak at all—I saw a knife in the prisoner's hand when he came into the room—he went downstairs at once after he had cut father's throat—I and my little brother got up and put on our trousers, and then Mr. Dartnell came up.

Cross-examined. Father did not blow out the light when he went to bed—the light was still alight; it was a little lamp; it gave a bright light—when the prisoner came into the room first of all he walked in rather an unsteady walk; I mean he came in gently—I don't know what "unsteady" means—he walked straight.

ELIZABETH DARTNELL . I am the wife of William Arthur Dartnell, a chair maker, and live at 73, Smith Street—on the night of 12th December, about 8.30 or 8.45, I went with Mr. and Mrs. Hoare and the prisoner to the Duke of York public-house—I was only there about a quarter of an hour, then I went home—about 11 o'clock Mr. and Mrs. Hoare and the prisoner came in together—I opened the door to them; they came into my sitting-room; the front room downstairs—my husband was there also—Hoare seemed the worse for drink—the prisoner did not seem to me the worse for drink—my husband fetched some ale, and there was some singing—Hoare wished us all good night and went up to bed—there was no disagreement whatever—after a time he called out to his wife to know if she was coming up—she said "Yes; I am coming in a minute," and two or three minutes afterwards she and the prisoner went up together—they came down together—my husband persuaded the prisoner to go home—Hoare called out to his wife a second time to know if she was coming to bed—the prisoner turned round to her and said "I must go up and say good night to old George once more"—he did not seem the worse for drink at all—he had been drinking, but he did not appear drunk—I did not see him the worse for liquor at all—he then went up alone; shortly afterwards he came down again—as he came down the stairs he said "I have done for the old b——at last"—I went to the street door and called for help, and a constable came.

WILLIAM ARTHUR DARTNELL . I am the husband of the last witness—about 11 on the night of 12th December Mr. and Mrs. Hoare and the prisoner came into my room—Hoare seemed to have had a little drop—

the prisoner seemed sober to me—I fetched three pints of ale, and we had some singing—after Hoare had gone to bed and his wife and the prisoner had been up to him, I tried to persuade the prisoner to go away—that was about 20 minutes past 12—he appeared sober at that time—he showed me his watch—I told him it was getting late, and he pulled out his watch and said "It is 22 minutes past 12"—I saw the watch—I could not swear that it was 22 minutes past 12 by it, I only went by what he said, I did not look to see whether he was right or wrong—I asked him if I should go and get him a cab, because he would be too late for a tram—he put up his boot and said "Good old iron never rusts"—he said he would go up and bid old George good-night once more—he went upstairs—he came down in two or three minutes—I heard him on the stairs, and heard him say "I have done for the old b----now"—I ran out of the room to the stairs, and saw him on the stairs with a pocket knife in his hand, open—I could not swear to the handle; I said I thought it was a white-handled one—I said "Give me that knife"—he said "No, you can't have it," and he slipped it into his pocket—I went upstairs, went to the bed, and saw Hoare's bed smothered in blood—he did not speak; I tried to make him—I could hardly see his throat, the blood was flowing from it so fast—he was alive and breathing, but I could not make him speak—I came downstairs again, and saw constable Green coming in—the prisoner was then downstairs in the back room—I said something to the constable, and went into the back room where the prisoner was—he did not say anything to me; he asked the constable if he could have a smoke—it was a knife like this (produced) that I saw in the prisoner's hand—this has a white handle—I recollect it—I said at first I could not swear to it, but when I saw it at the police-court I swore to it.

Cross-examined. Before they came in on this evening I had been sitting with my wife in the front room downstairs; I had not been out—they began singing, and I joined in with them, all of us—we were not uproarious—I dare say we were singing for three-quarters of an hour, or it might be an hour, when Hoare went to bed.

By the COURT. I don't know where the prisoner lived, it was at Brixton—I told him to go, because it was getting late, and I thought it was the best thing for him to get home.

MARY Hart. I am the wife of Abraham Hart, and live at 75, Smith Street, next door to 73—my husband is a gardener—on Wednesday, 12th December, about a quarter to 9, I and my husband went to bed—I was awoke by the singing next door—I heard a noise of some one going upstairs next door, and I heard Hoare's voice say "Why don't you come to bed"—I then heard a man's voice say "Good-night," and a noise of going downstairs again—some time afterwards I heard some one go upstairs, and then a dreadful noise was made—that was all I heard.

PHILIP GREEN (Policeman P 487). On the morning of 13th December I heard screams at 73, Smith Street—I met Dartnell just coming out of the door, the prisoner following him—Dartnell said "That man has cut a man's throat upstairs"—I said "Is that so?"—the prisoner said "If they say so I suppose it is right"—I told him he would have to go back into the house till I saw what it was; he said "All right"—I sent a constable for Mr. Simmonds, the surgeon—I think the prisoner had been drinking, but he was not drunk; he appeared to know what he was doing and saying—he seemed very cool and quiet through it all.

HENRY MORRIS SIMMONDS . I am a registered medical practitioner at 66, Camberwell Road—about 1 o'clock on the morning of 13th December I was called to 73, Smith Street—I went upstairs and found Hoare in bed—he had a large wound in his throat and was expiring; he could not speak—he died at once—I examined him carefully—the wound extended rght across the throat, being deepest on the left side—the muscles and bloodvessels on that side were all divided entirely to the centre of the neck—in my opinion the weapon had been forcibly thrust in on the left side, pulled out, and then drawn across—there must have been considerable force—it was a wound that would cause death, and in my judgment it did cause death; the hæmorrhage from the wound did—I saw the prisoner afterwards—he was not very drunk; he had been drinking, and he had a stare on him—he seemed restless, as if he were half-inclined to get up and run away; he was seated on a chair—I think he knew what he was doing—he gave his address in a very collected, deliberate manner.

Cross-examined. There was a stupid expression on his face; it was stupidity and horror—I think he was just awaking to what was happening—I think he was in possession of his faculties—sometimes men recover out of a drunken condition very suddenly.

THOMAS GEOFFREY WILLIAMS (Police Inspector P). About 1.30 on the morning of 13th December I went to 73, Smith Street—after seeing the deceased man I went downstairs and saw the prisoner in a back room—I said "What is your name?"—he replied "George Baldwin"—I said "I want that knife you have got"—he said "I have not got a knife"—I searched him, and in his right-hand trousers pocket I found these two knives which I now produce—there was blood on the white-handled one, and is now—they were both shut; I opened the blade of the white-handled one—as I did so the prisoner said "That is the one I done it with"—I said "George Baldwin, I charge you with the wilful murder of George Hoare by cutting his throat with a knife, and I now apprehend you for it"—he replied "All right, sir; I done it"—I took him to the station; he was there charged with the murder in the usual way, and he said "Yes, I done it"—I examined his right hand, and from the tips of his fourth and fifth fingers down to the wrist there were stains of blood—he had no wound on his hand.

The Prisoner's Statement before the Magistrate. "I have nothing to say, only I was drunk; I can't recollect what I was doing of, and can't see nothing of it."


Before Robert Malcolm Kerr, Esq.

7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-236
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

Related Material

236. WILLIAM THOMAS WEBB (29) PLEADED GUILTY to stealing the sum of 186l. and other money, the property of the South-Western Banking Company, his masters.— Twelve Months' Hard Labour.

7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-237
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

Related Material

237. JOHN CAREY (19) and CHARLES CAREY (21) , Burglary in the dwelling-house of William Castle, and stealing a box, a quantity of butter, and other articles.

MR. HICKS Prosecuted.

SAMUEL BUCKLAND . I live at 6, Little Europa Place, Battersea—I am a general dealer—I live next door to Mr. Castle's shop—about a quarter to 2 on Saturday morning, 22nd December, I was in bed, and

heard a noise coming from Mr. Castle's shop—I got up and went to the downstairs door, and I saw the prisoner at his shop window—the window was broken, and Charles Carey took a box of sweets from it—Charles offered it to me—I have known both prisoners for five or six years—I shut the door, and went upstairs and looked out of the window—I saw the prisoners pull something from under their coats and tie it up in a bundle.

WALTER CASTLE . I live at 7, Little Europa Place, Battersea, and keep a general shop—my shop is next door to where last witness lives—on 22nd December I went to bed about 12 o'clock—the house was securely fastened, and the shop window was closed—I came down about 10 minutes to 6—I went to work at 6 o'clock, and returned about 8 to breakfast—I examined the window, and missed a box of butter, some currants and raisins, and a box of sweets—I know both prisoners by sight—they have been to my shop to buy things several times—I have not seen any of the articles I have missed since.

MINNIE CASTLE . I am the daughter of last witness—about 7 o'clock on Saturday morning, 23rd December, I came downstairs and went into the shop—I missed a box of butter and a jar of jam—everything was gone out of the window—this pane of glass (produced) was lying in the window—I noticed that the shutters had been taken down and put up again.

HENRY GEORGE (Police Sergeant V). I received information of this burglary—on the 23rd I was with a constable named Bosley, and saw the prisoners at Fulham—I knew them—I said "Jack, I want you for a burglary at Mr. Castle's"—Charles Carey said "Buckland was drunk"—I took John Carey to the station.

---- BOSLEY (Policeman VR 26). I was present with the last witness when the prisoners were charged—I told Charles I should take him into custody for breaking into a house in Europa Place—on the way to the station he said "I did not do it, I know nothing about it."

Witness for the Defence.

MARGARET CAREY . John was indoors at 9 o'clock on that very night the other boy was in between 12 and 1 o'clock—I know it was on this night, but I do not remember the day.


Both prisoners PLEADED GUILTY to having been previously convicted.— Twelve Months' Hard Labour each.

7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-238
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

Related Material

238. PATRICK COCKLIN (20) , Robbery with violence on John Jenkins, and stealing 8s.

MR. HICKS Prosecuted.

JOHN JENKINS . I live at No. 7, York Street, Walworth Road—about 12.5 on the morning of 24th December I was coming along the Borough Road—the prisoner came up to me, and collared me by the throat, and two others were behind—my pockets were turned out—they them ran away—I told a policeman I had been robbed—I had been drinking, but I knew what I was about—I had 8s. in my pocket.

HENRY VANTAN (Policeman 135 M). On the morning of 24th December I was on duty in the Borough, near St. George's Church—the prosecutor spoke to me, and I went after the prisoner—I charged him with stealing 8s. from the last witness—he said "I know nothing at all about it; I

have come up for a cup of coffee"—the prosecutor had been drinking, but he was not drunk.

GUILTY . He then PLEADED GUILTY to having been convicted on the 6th April, 1880, at the Surrey Sessions.— Two Years' Hard Labour.

7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-239
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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239. FREDERICK WILLIAM NEAVE (23) PLEADED GUILTY to obtaining by false pretences various sums of money, with intent to defraud.— Five Years' Penal Servitude.

Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-240
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

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240. DANIEL LEARY (17) PLEADED GUILTY to unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.— Twelve Months' Hard Labour.

7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-241
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

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241. CELESTINUS FAITHZ (30) to marrying Mary Ann Britain, his wife being then alive.— Six Months' Hard Labour. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.] And

7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-242
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

Related Material

242. SARAH DOW to marrying Frederick Macey, her husband being then alive.— One Month without Hard Labour. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-243
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

Related Material

243. ALFRED FOSTER (27) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.


LILY TIBEY . I am barmaid at the Criterion Tavern, in the borough of Kingston—on the night of 15th December I was serving there between 8 and 9 o'clock—the prisoner came into the bar, and asked for two threepenny cigars—I gave him the two cigars, and he gave me half a sovereign in payment—I had some doubt about it, and handed it over to Mr. Porter, the proprietor, who is outside—the prisoner said "My change, please," or some remark similar to that—I don't think I made any remark—I did not say it was bad; I thought he would go if I said that—I gave the half-sovereign to Mr. Porter, and he went round to the compartment and detained the prisoner—I heard what was said—Mr. Porter said to the prisoner "Are you under the impression that this half-sovereign is bad?"—the prisoner said I had given him this bad half-sovereign in change that evening for a sovereign—I denied it—I said "It is not so; you are under a wrong impression; I did not"—I am quite sure I had not given this man change for a sovereign that evening—I gave change for a sovereign that evening to another gentleman, a Mr. Duffell, who is a witness outside, and who was a regular customer known to me—that was between 6 and 7 o'clock—there were three men in the compartment with the prisoner, and I concluded they were his companions—I cannot say if they spoke to him—I gave the half-sovereign to Mr. Porter—a constable was sent for to the house.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. I shall have been in this situation a month on the 10th of this month—I made some remark before the Magistrate, and said I hadn't seen Mr. Duffell since you had been taken into custody, but I had seen him since, and he gave me his name and address—I first saw him since that occasion in the bar on the Tuesday or Wednesday after the Monday that we appeared at the Borough Sessions place at Kingston, and I said to him "Do you remember me changing a sovereign for you?"—he said "Yes"—I said "The Magistrate asked me to ask you for your name and address"—he gave it me—when you gave me the half-sovereign, and it was bad, you made some remark that it was from me you had received the bad half-sovereign, which I denied—I don't remember saying I hadn't taken a sovereign.

EDWIN PORTER . I am landlord of the Criterion in the borough of Kingston—on Saturday, 15th December, I was in my house—the last

witness called me aside and showed me a bad half-sovereign; I looked at it and found it was a bad one—I went round; the prisoner was still at the bar—I went and saw the prisoner, and said to the young lady "Give this young man his change, look sharp"—while she was appearing to give the change I went round and stopped him—I said "I want you to go to a constable with me, you have passed a bad half-sovereign. It's merely a case of giving your name and address, and I should like you to go to a constable"—previously to that I had seen a friend of mine; the prisoner did not hear what passed between us—I took the prisoner to a constable, about 20 yards off—he went out, and I with him, and we saw the constable on the way to the station—outside the house he said he had got the half-sovereign from my house—I had a friend with me—when we met the constable I said "This man has passed a bad half-sovereign, and I want you to come back to the house to take his name and address"—the prisoner came back to the house—in the house I said "I charge this man with uttering a bad half-sovereign"—the prisoner brought out six single shillings in good money which he had in his hand and put it on the counter, and then he said he got the half-sovereign from our young lady, Miss Tibey—I said "What did you want to change this half-sovereign for when you had 6s. in good money money in your pocket?"—he said he had some small amounts to pay away—this was Saturday night between 9 and 10 o'clock—I said "What did you do with the other money, 4s.?"—he said he went over the way and spent 1s. in a couple of pots treating some people—I asked him who they were—he said he did not know who they were, they had met him—I asked him if he could not name the house—he said "The house over the way"—"Which house?" I said—he said "It is round to the left"—there are about fourteen houses over the way—he gave his address at the police-station—he wanted the policeman to search his person and began to take off his dress at the bar—he was taken to the station—I heard him give his address to the constable at the station—I gave the half-sovereign to the constable that night.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. I have two barmaids—there were three in the bar that night; we have one that comes in to help on Saturday evenings—when the barmaid was asked about the change for a sovereign, she said she had taken one sovereign during the evening and changed it, and she knew the man who had changed the sovereign—there was no trouble taken over finding that man, he was within calling distance—he is working at Messrs. Burgoyne's, the boatbuilders—I could not state how many sovereigns I took off my till that night to one or two—before this I went to Saunders and got change, clearing in the sovereigns from the back—I took five or six—you were taken from the house to the station in company with myself and Mr. Merritt.

THOMAS DUFFELL . I am a boatbuilder living at Kingston-on-Thames—on Saturday night, 15th December, I was at the Criterion between 6 and 7 as near as I can recollect—Miss Tibey, the barmaid, changed a sovereign for me—a half-sovereign was amongst it—it was all good money.

Cross-examined. I should think it was four or five days since I was at the Criterion—about three days after the Saturday when I changed the sovereign I went in there, and the young lady said "You know you changed a sovereign with me?"—I said "Yes, miss"—she said "I want your name and address," and I gave them to her.

HENRY DORELSON (Policeman V 252). On 15th December I saw Mr. Porter—the prisoner was about a few yards from his house—another gentleman was with him—Mr. Porter spoke to me about the prisoner—he told me he had been into his house and purchased some cigars there, and tendered a bad half-sovereign in payment—I told the prisoner he had better go back to the house, and he did so, so as to have it explained—at the house I proceeded to search him—he had six shillings in his hand at the time, good money—in the house the prisoner said with regard to where he got the half-sovereign from "I received it a short time ago from the young person in the bar," pointing to Miss Tibey—he said he got it in change for a sovereign—she denied it; she said "You did not get it from me, for there has only been one sovereign changed in the bar this evening, and that was from one of our regular customers"—he said again he got it from her—I said "It seems strange you should purchase cigars, and want to pay for them with a half-sovereign, and have loose silver in your possession"—he said "Well, you would pay for anything you bought, I suppose, with any coin you liked"—he repeatedly said "You can take my address if you are not satisfied, and summons me"—I told him it was not a case for a summons, it was a case to go to the station—he was charged with uttering at the station, and gave me his address, 8, Eaton Street, Blackfriars—he was detained in custody, and on the following day, the Sunday, I went to the address, and made some inquiries there—having made these and come away, I saw the prisoner on the next day, Monday—I said "I have been to the address you gave me; nobody knows anything about you there"—he said "Ah, you didn't go to the right party"—he didn't mention any name then—I said I had seen the landlady, and she had been in the house for a great many years, and she knew nothing about him—he said "I have been living in the house, and she may not have known that I was there"—no name was mentioned then—before the Justices he stated that he did not accuse me of negligence, but I ought to have gone to a man named Wakeling, who was living at this address—I went there again.

Cross-examined. I did not see the governor of the Criterion while the case was remanded—during the remand he did not tell me he had a witness against you to show the sovereign was laid down by him and not you—you had had a drop to drink when you were taken in custody, but you were not drunk by any means—I have seen Mr. Wakely at 8, Eaton Street; he said "He may have lodged here."

Re-examined. I found there was a person named Wakely; I saw him at 8, Eaton Street—I asked him if a man named Alfred Foster lived with him—he said no, he knew nothing about a such a man.

By the Prisoner. Mr. Wakely made no demur; he said you may have lodged here.

ESTHER COX . I am a widow and have lived at 8, Eaton Street, Blackfriars, for 22 years—it is a private house; I take in three lodgers—I know nothing whatever of the prisoner; he is quite a stranger to me and has never lodged in my house—I have a lodger named Wakely; he has lodged there about 13 months, and is one of my three lodgers.

WILLIAM JOHN WEBSTER . I am Inspector of Coin to Her Majesty's Mint, and assist my father—this half-sovereign is a bad one; it is made of the same material as the counterfeit silver coins, and gilt in a battery.

The Prisoner's Statement before the Magistrate. "I took the half-sovereign from the witness Lilly Tibey in part change for a sovereign."

The prisoner, in his defence, contended that there was no evidence to show he had been in the house previously watching the barmaid; she and Duffell contradicted one another, for he said he had been in the house three or four days after the affair, while she had said on the last remand she did not know who the man was. They would have noticed him had he been hanging about there from 6, when the sovereign was paid, to 9 o'clock. He stated that 6s. found on him (the prisoner) was the remainder of the change from the sovereign; on the day in question he and eight others had gone to Surbiton to decide some trial heats of a handicap; he met a young woman at 3 o'clock in the afternoon and went into the Criterion; they came out and spent the evening together, and then, thinking he would have two smokes going home to Waterloo, he went into the Criterion and thought he might as well put down the half-sovereign.

LILY TIBEY (Re-examined by the JURY). I had been there about five days when this happened—I knew Duffell was a regular customer because he came in every evening.


7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-244
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

Related Material

244. CHARLES HASTINGS (19) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.

MR. GOODRICH Prosecuted.

MARY ANN MAY . I am Thomas Barrett's assistant at his linendraper's shop, 117, Westminster Bridge Road—on 24th November, about 1 o'clock in the afternoon, the prisoner came into the shop—I was serving—he asked for a pair of gloves, selected a pair which came to 1s. 11 1/2 d., and tendered this sovereign (produced) in payment—I took it to the cashier's desk.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. I was about half a minute going to the cashier's desk—you were standing at the end of the counter near the door—the sovereign was found to be bad before I came back—I followed Mr. Barrett and Mr. Palmer back to you; I heard you say that you got the sovereign at Mr. Rogers's, where you worked.

SOPHIA MARIAN BARRETT . I live at 117, Westminster Bridge Road, and act as cashier there—on 24th November, about 1 o'clock; Miss May handed me this sovereign at my desk—I examined it and made a communication to Mr. Palmer—it was not bent like this when I first saw it.

RICHARD PALMER . I am shop-walker at Mr. Barrett's shop, 117, Westminster Bridge Road—on the afternoon of 24th November, a little after 1 o'clock, Miss Barrett handed me this sovereign—it was bent to show it was bad in a crack in the counter—I and Mr. Barrett came to the prisoner—I asked him if he had any more money like this in his possession—he said "I don't think I have"—he produced a purse containing 1s. 3d. in silver and 6d. in bronze good money—I asked him where he was working; he said at Charles Rogers's, bootmaker, Westminster Bridge Road, and Frith's, of Tottenham Court Road—he said he could get a good character from both places—being asked how he obtained the money, he said he got it in his wages—I sent for a constable and he was given in custody.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. I asked you some questions, and Mr. Barrett asked you some—you did not say when you got it in your wages

—I did not say in my deposition that you said you got it from Mr. Rogers—I asked where you lived; you said Parsonage Walk—I am not sure of No. 5—you were standing near the door, just inside the shop; the door was perfectly clear—neither of us attempted to put our hands on you—you could easily have run—on the way to the station you said you thought you won that money at billiards; at the Sun I think it was, in the Kent Road—you made the same statement to the inspector at the station—I told it them at the station.

WILLIAM FOLIS . In November I was policeman 85 L—I have since left the force—on the afternoon of that day I was called to the shop, 177, Westminster Bridge Boad, by Mr. Barrett, and the prisoner was given into custody by Mr. Palmer for tendering a counterfeit sovereign in payment for a pair of gloves—the prisoner said "It is not likely I should ruin myself and my character for life by tendering a bad sovereign if I knew it; you can go to the place where I have worked, and my lodgings, and you will find my character bears the strictest investigation," or words to that effect—I searched him at the shop, and found 1s. 3d. in silver and 4 1/2 d. or 6d. in bronze—on the way to the station the prisoner said he must have won the sovereign playing billiards at Wilson's in the Kent Road—he was charged before the Magistrate on two days, and subsequently discharged.

Cross-examined. You pulled out the things, and I put my hands into you pockets and found no more money—I did not ask you how you came to do it—Barrett and Palmer held a short consultation before giving you in charge—you gave your name and address at the first onset—I did not say "It was no crime to pass bad money so long as it was done innocently"—on the way to the station you said "I wonder how I am going to get on"—I believe I heard Mr. Barrett say something about wages.

THOMAS SURRAGE . I am a tobacconist, of 5, St. George's Circus, Southwark—on the evening of the 9th December the prisoner came into my shop about 8 o'clock, and asked for a twopenny cigar—I served him; he tendered this florin (produced) in payment—I took it and then bent it, and told the prisoner it was bad—the prisoner said "I think you have made a mistake"—I said "No; it is a bad one"—he then gave me a good sixpence, and I gave him fourpence change—he said his master had given it to him, and if I would keep it till to-morrow morning "I will bring my master round, and then he will give me another one"—I then called in a constable and gave him in custody.

Cross-examined. You saw me going to bend it, and said "Is it a bad one?" and I said "Yes."

CHARLES COLLETTE (Policeman L 89). At 8.15 on the evening of the 9th December I was called to 5, St. George's Circus, and Surrage gave the prisoner into my custody for tendering a bad florin—I searched him and found 1s. 6d. and 4d. bronze good money—he said he got the coin at Mr. Rogers's, his master's—I said "You were charged a few weeks back with uttering counterfeit coin"—he said "No; I was charged for attempting suicide in August last at the station"—I looked at the charge book, and said "You were charged here on 24th November in the name of Charles Hastings with uttering counterfeit coin"—he said "Quite right."

WILLIAM JOHN WEBSTER . Both of these coins are bad.

The Prisoner's Statement before the Magistrate. "It is no fault of mine that I got these two bad coins. I got this sovereign playing billiards in the Old Kent Road; when they told me it was bad I offered to go and get good money. When I gave this florin to Surrage I could hardly believe it was bad, it was so like a good one. I wish to say I got this florin at Bingham's in the London Road."

The prisoner, in his defence, repeated what he had stated before the Magistrate, denied all knowledge of the coins being bad, and stated that he had intended to bring an action for false imprisonment against Mr. Barrett, and went for that purpose to Mr. Willis, a solicitor in St. Martin's Court, who gave notice of motion. The florin he recollected afterwards he must have obtained from Mr. Bingham when he pawned his watch. He was just going to a new situation, and depended upon Mr. Rogers, who was a friend of Mr. Barrett's for a reference.


7th January 1884
Reference Numbert18840107-245
VerdictGuilty > with recommendation
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

Related Material

245. THOMAS BRINDLEY (22) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.

MR. POLAND Prosecuted.

CHARLES GENONI . I keep a confectioner's shop at 52, High Street, Wimbledon—on the night of 17th December I was in my shop at 7.30—the prisoner came in and asked for a penny glass of lemonade; I served him—he gave me half-a-crown in payment; I gave him 2s. 5d. change—no one was in the shop with him—he drank the lemonade, took up his change, and left the shop—I then looked at the half-crown, noticed it was bad, and ran at once out of the shop, and 10 or 20 yards off saw the prisoner talking to another man—I caught him by the sleeve, he rushed away, and the other man went in the other direction—I went after the prisoner and called out "Stop thief," and when he got into the light he began to draw up, and I caught him—I said "What did you give me bad money for?" he said "There is your change, let me go"—I said "I shall have you locked up;" he said "Here is your change, let me go"—he handed over the change—a policeman came up; I gave the prisoner into custody—when I ran out I left the half-crown on the counter; no one was in the shop but my wife—when I went back I found the half-crown on the counter, just where I had left it—I am quite sure this is the same one that I received from the prisoner and gave to the constable—I am quite sure the prisoner is the man that gave it to me.

WILLIAM BAKER (Policeman V 140). On the night of 17th December, between 7 and 8, I heard cries of "Stop thief" about 100 yards from Mr. Genoni's shop—I saw the prisoner running outside the Dog and Fox, and Mr. Genoni running after him—Mr. Genoni caught him, and then I came up—Mr. Genoni said "Why did you give me false money?" the prisoner handed back something to him, and said "Let me go, here is your change"—I took him to the shop—when I took him into custody he said "Oh, sir, it is my first offence, my sister gave it to me, who lives at Wimbledon"—I said "Where does your sister live?" he made no answer—I searched him at the shop and found 1d. on him—I took him to the station; on the way he said without any question being asked that the half-crown was given to him for work he had done in Covent Garden Market that morning—he was charged and locked up—Mr. Genoni gave me this half-crown—at the station the prisoner said he

lived at a common lodging-house which he thought was called the Castle Lodging-house, Castle Street, St. Martin's Lane—I have made inquiries in Castle Street; there are three common lodging-houses there, but not one of the name of the Castle.

WILLIAM JOHN WEBSTER . This is a bad half-crown.

The Prisoner's Statement before the Magistrate. "I am very sorry. If I had known it was a bad one I should not have passed it."

The prisoner, in his defence, stated that he had received the half-crown in payment for work he had done at Covent Garden Market.

GUILTY. Recommended to mercy by the Jury on account of his youth. — Four Months' Hard Labour.


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