Old Bailey Proceedings.
19th November 1883
Reference Number: t18831119

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Old Bailey Proceedings front matter.
19th November 1883
Reference Numberf18831119

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Sessions Paper.








Short-hand Writers to the Court,










Law Booksellers and Publishers.



On the Queen's Commission of



The City of London,





Held on Monday, November 19th, 1883, and following days.

Including cases committed to this Court under Order in Council pursuant. to the Winter Assize Act of 1879.

BEFORE THE RIGHT HON. ROBERT NICHOLAS FOWLER, LORD MAYOR of the City of London; The Hon. GEORGE DENMAN and the Hon. Sir JAMES FITZJAMES STEPHEN, Knt., two of the Justices of Her Majesty's High Court of Justice; Sir ROBERT WALTER CARDEN , Knt., M.P., Sir ANDREW LUSK , Bart., M.P., DAVID HENRY STONE , Esq., Sir THOMAS DAKIN , Knt., and Sir CHARLES WHETHAM, Knt., Aldermen of the said City; Sir THOMAS CHAMBERS , Knt., Q.C., M.P., Recorder of the said City; SIMEON CHARLES HADLEY , Esq., JOHN STAPLES , Esq., Sir REGINALD HANSON , Knt., POLYDORE DE KEYSER, Esq., and JOSEPH SAVORY , Esq., other of the Aldermen of the said City; Sir WILLIAM THOMAS CHARLEY , Knt., Q.C., D.C.L., Common Serjeant of the said City; and ROBERT MALCOLM KERR , Esq., LL.D., Judge of the Sheriffs' Court: Her Majesty's Justices of Oyer and Terminer, and General Gaol Delivery, holden for the said City, and Judges of the Central Criminal Court.

PHINEAS COWAN , Lieut.-Col.,








A star (*) denotes that prisoners have been previously in custody—two stars (**) that they have been more than once in custody—a dagger (†) that they are known to be the associates of bad characters—the figures after the name in the indictment denote the prisoner's age.


OLD COURT.—Monday, November 19th, 1883.

Before Mr. Recorder.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-1
VerdictsNot Guilty > no evidence

Related Material

1. FRANCIS NICHOLLS SEARWICKE was indicted for stealing various articles of dress, the property of the Ladies' Dress Association, also for unlawfully omitting certain materials from the books of the Association.

MR. BESLEY. for the Prosecution, offered no evidence.


19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-2
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceNo Punishment > sentence respited

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2. WILLIAM EDWARD MANNING (29) PLEADED GUILTY to unlawfully obtaining by false pretences three sums of 15l. from Albert Charles Stephens, 5l. 18s. 7d. from Ada Fennell, and 1l. from Michael Angelo Zoccola.— Judgment respited.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-3
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

Related Material

3. CHARLES WARWICK (21) , Unlawfully obtaining 30 pieces of cloth and other goods by false pretenses.

MR. BRINDLEY Prosecuted.

WILLIAM FREDERICK DAVIS . I was clerk to Robert Outram and Co., of 13, Watling Street—on 19th May last two bales and a box containing two pieces of sheeting and other articles were consigned to a firm at Ostend—I gave them to Waters for the purpose of being dispatched—on the 27th I saw a portion of the goods at the Bethnal Green Station.

JOHN WATERS . I am foreman to Robert Outram and Co.—on 19th May the prisoner called at the warehouse about half-past 11 in the morning—he called down "Is there anything for Fardell to-day?"—I said "There is something, but it will not be ready for a quarter of an hour or 20 minutes"—he said he would wait—I went outside and saw the van—the name of Fardell, Crescent, Minories, was on it—I told Perry to hand the goods to the prisoner—Fardell Carried goods for us weekly—I received the goods from Davis.

CHARLES WILSON FARDELL . I am a carman of 4, Crescent, Minories—I carry goods for Outram and Co.—I know the prisoner—he was not in my employ on 19th May—he had been as an odd man for a few days

—I did not authorise him to call for any goods at Outram's on 19th May—he was not sent out with one of my vans on that day—I had missed a name plate from one of my vans two days before—I have not seen it since.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. It was not your brother that drove for me, it was you, you have sat by my side; you also drove for neighbours on each side of me.

WILLIAM OLDHAMPSTEAD (City Detective). On 30th July I saw the prisoner in a cart opposite the Tower—I said to him "Boss, I want to speak to you; I am going to take you into custody for being concerned with two other men, who have been convicted, for obtaining a quantity of goods from Messrs. Outram, of 13, Watling Street, on the 19th instant—he made no answer at the time—on the way to the station he said "How shall I get on? I suppose I shall get something for this?"—I said "I don't know, it all depends"—he then said "It is quite true, I went there and got the goods, but I was sent by two men who met me in St. Paul's Churchyard. After I got the goods I drove them to Shoreditch. The two men took the van, and drove away. They gave me a pound for my trouble"—he made a similar statement at the station—he mentioned the names of two men—I forget them—Steinbach and Sandell, who have been convicted, he said he did not know—he was taken to the Mansion House, remanded for a week, and then escaped from custody—he was afterwards taken by Detective Sergeant Webb.

Cross-examined. You did not tell me that the men gave you what you thought was a shilling, but which you afterwards found was a half-crown.

EDWIN PERRY . I am a packer in the employ of Messrs. Outram—on Saturday, 19th May, the prisoner came and asked if there were any goods for Fardell—I heard the foreman tell him that they were not quite ready, but to call in half an hour's time—I did not see him on the first occasion, I heard him—I saw him the second time, and gave him the goods, and he signed the book "G. Day."

WILLIAM ACOURT . I am a carman to Messrs. Outram—on 19th May I saw the prisoner there with a van and horse—I helped him in the van with the goods; it had "Thos. Fardell" on it.

Prisoner's Defence. I was in St. Paul's Churchyard, when two men met me with the van. They asked me to go for the goods. They gave me a shilling as I thought, and next morning I found it was a sovereign.

GUILTY .— Fifteen Months' Hard Labour.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-4
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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4. MARY ANN TROWER, Unlawfully obtaining 5l. 16s. from Mary Wells.

MR. CARTER Prosecuted.

The money obtained by the prisoner was due for ground rent on premises, which she claimed to be entitled to, and the Jury believing her to have acted under the mistaken notion that she was really entitled to receive it, found her


19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-5
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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5. MARGARET HUBBARD (24) was indicted for wilful and corrupt perjury at this Court on the trial of Morris Nicholson.


JAMES NICHOLSON . I live at 10, Hassock Street, Hackney Road—my

brother, Alfred Nicholson, was living at 13, St. John's Terrace, Hackney Road, on 13th September, 1881—on that day he was summoned to Worship Street Police-court on an affiliation case—I and my brothers William and George Nicholson went to hear the case—when it was over we went to my brother's lodging—we met my brother Morris near Shoreditch Church, and he went with us—there was some hooting by the neighbours, and so he went for a walk—we came back about 25 minutes or half-past 9 o'clock—I can't say who went in first, three or four of them went in together, my brother and another chap, a stranger, Henry Roberts, and my brother's wife, Alice Nicholson—I stopped outside, Morris Nicholson stopped outside with me, and a man named Till, and another named Ilstone—I saw the prisoner there and her sister Caroline Hughes—Caroline Hughes stopped in front of the door and would not let my brother Morris go in to my brother Alfred—I saw him give her a push, and then he went in and she began to cry, and her father Solomon Hughes came up and asked her what was the matter; she said "Morris has struck me"—he went inside and went upstairs—I followed him, leaving Caroline Hughes and the prisoner standing at the street-door—when I got on the lauding I felt some one catch hold of me by the waistcoat; it was so dark I could not see who it was at the time, but it turned out to be Solomon Hughes; I pushed him with one hand and caught hold of the corner post of the door to release myself—three buttons of my waistcoat gave way, and he fell downstairs, and I went into the room and told them what had happened—when I got into the room I saw my brother Morris sitting on the bedstead in the front room—my brother Alfred went downstairs to see if the man was hurt—the police came about 9 or 10 minutes afterwards, and Morris was charged with pushing the man downstairs—the prisoner and Caroline Hughes charged him—I said that they should not take him, for I did it, but they shoved me on one side and took him—Mr. Abbot was instructed to appear for my brother at the police-court—I told him everything that had taken place—I attended at this Court when the case came on for trial—I came inside and saw the Counsel, Mr. Geoghegan, and asked him to call me—my brother was convicted of manslaughter—a petition was prepared to the Home Secretary on 10th November—I was laid up for four months with rheumatic fever—directly I was able I went to Scotland yard and gave myself up for this offence—I went several times to he Home Office and to Scotland Yard—I kept my waistcoat for 18 months, and then gave it to a man named King.

Cross-examined. I don't know which policeman it was to whom I said he should not take my brother, because I did it, I think it was Rockingham—I did not lodge at this house, it belonged to Charles Smith—Hughes lived at the back—my brother Alfred and his wife and another woman did not rush into the house and bar the door—I stood outside—I could not see what was done inside—I did go in, because my brother asked us to his place to have a cup of tea, after the hearing of the case at Worship Street—about seven of us went to the house—I saw Morris strike Caroline Hughes in the face—he didn't say "Get out of the b—way"—Hughes came up to the door and said "What is the matter?" he didn't say "Who struck my daughter?"—I did not hear anybody say "Let us throw the old b—downstairs, he does not live here"—I can swear that nothing of the kind was said—I gave Hughes a very hard push to

relieve myself, or else I should have gone downstairs—he fell from the top to the bottom, and died a week and a day afterwards—it was so dark there I could not see who was pushed down—I did not go down to see what had been done, my brother did—the Magistrate dismissed this charge—what I say is, I did this, not my brother—I don't think I ought to be doing seven years for him, because it was an accident; if he had not fallen I should.

ALFRED NICHOLSON . I live at 38, Crowndale Street, Hoxton—on 13th September, 1881, I lived at 13, St. John's Terrace, Hackney Road—about halt-past 9 o'clock that evening I went to my lodging, and went up to my room; there were a lot of us—my room is the first-floor front—there was George Nicholson, a man named Roberts, William Nicholson, Mrs. George Nicholson, and my wife—Morris Nicholson came up—Solomon Hughes was not lodging there—Morris sat on the edge of the bed, by the side of Roberts and myself—about 10 minutes after he had got in the room I heard a noise on the staircase, like somebody falling downstairs—Morris was not in the room then, he had not been in the room at all, James came in after the noise and said something, and I went down and made some inquiries and found that the old man was seriously hurt—I came back and saw Morris taken in custody by the police.

Cross-examined. It was I was had the summons against me—the neighbours hooted me as I went home—there was a disturbance about 9 o'clock, so we went to my lodgings; the door was not barred—I invited them to come to my lodging to spend an hour—it is not often we brothers all meet together—I did not hear anybody say "Let us throw the old b—downstairs;" nothing of the kind was said—I did not hear Smith, or Caroline Hughes, or Margaret Hubbard, swear so at my brother's trial—I was outside waiting to be called in.

Re-examined. I was not examined as a witness either at the police-court or here; I was ready to be examined—it was dark when this occurred—when my brother James was taken he told me that he had pushed the old gentleman downstairs—I told the police that Morris was not the man, but they took no notice.

WILLIAM ILSONE . I live at 4, Ramsey Street, Bethnal Green, and am a cabinet maker—on the evening of 13th September, 1881, I went with the Nicholsons to St. John's Terrace about half-past 9—I saw some of the Nicholsons go inside; I remained outside with Richard Till and James Nicholson—I did not see Mrs. James Nicholson there—Solomon Hughes came up and went into the house after speaking to the girl at the door—James Nicholson went in about a minute or two after him; I then heard a stumbling downstairs.

Cross-examined. It was dark—there was no disturbance then outside the house, there had been before, there was a crowd of people shouting and hooting—they shut the door after the old gentleman came down the stairs.

RICHARD TILL . I live at 37, Little Sutton Street, Clerkenwell—on the evening of 13th September, 1881, about half-past 9, I was outside the house where the Nicholsons lodged—some of them went inside—Morris N. cholson went inside—I was outside talking with the last witness and several people—James Nicholson was outside—there was a mob outside the door—Solomon Hughes came up—one of his daughters was crying, and he asked her what was the matter—Margaret Hubbard was standing

by her side—Hughes went into the house; James Nicholson followed him in shortly after—I then heard a noise, and the two daughters then, ran away from the street door and said, "Oh, my God, it is father"—I heard the noise of falling down stairs, that was after James had gone in.

Cross-examined. They didn't shut the door when James went in, I swear that.

MORRIS NICHOLSON (In custody). I am at present undergoing a sentence of seven years' penal servitude—I was convicted of the manslaughter of Solomon Hughes at the October Sessions, 1881—on 13th September, 1881, I went back to the house with Alfred and several others between 9 and half-past—I am not the man who pushed Solomon Hughes downstairs; I was in my brother's room at the time.

Cross-examined. I did not strike Caroline Hughes in the face as I went in, I swear that; I pulled her away from the door, I did not strike her—I asked her to let me go in—she said I should not—I did not say, "Get out of the b—way"—I did not strike her in the left eye—she did not cry, I swear that—I was sitting on the bed when my brother James came in—he came in with a kind of rush, he appeared to fall in—that was after the noise of the fall down stairs—I was taken to the station to be identified by the old man—he did not that I am aware of say at first that on account of the fall he could not see—he did not then put on his spectacles and in the presence of Inspector Barker say that I was the man that pushed him downstairs.

Re-examined. There were three of us put in the dock, Roberts, Venn, and myself, and the deceased was asked if he could pick out the man that pushed him downstairs; he pointed to Roberts—I did not see him put on his spectacles—I was sitting on my brother's bed by the side of Alfred when I heard the fall—it was dark; there was a lamp in the room.

GEORGE NICHOLSON . I live at 41, Felton Street, Hoxton, and am an iron-plate worker—on 13th September, 1881, about half-past 9, I went with Alfred and my other brothers to Alfred's lodging—I heard a noise as of some one falling down stairs—at that time Morris was sitting on the bed along with Roberts and Alfred—directly after hearing the noise James came in with a burst; he said something.

SARAH NICHOLSON . I am the wife of James Nicholson—I was with him outside my brother Alfred's lodging on 13th September, 1881—Ilston and Till were there too—Morris was there at the time the old man came up and went into the house—he did not say anything—Morris went in after him, leaving me and my husband outside.

Cross-examined. I saw Caroline Hughes there—she was crying.

BARKER JAMES ABBOTT . I am a solicitor practising at Worship Street and other places—I was instructed to defend Morris Nicholson on the charge of murder—certain statements were made to me by James and George Nicholson, and those statements were in the brief delivered to Mr. Geoghegan on the occasion of the trial.

Cross-examined. James Nicholson has brought an action against me—Mr. Elworthy was the solicitor—he is now instructing Mr. Burnie—I did what I thought necessary for the defence—the action is going on.

JAMES DROVER BARNETT . I am the official shorthand writer to this Court—I was present on 20th October, 1881, when Morris Nicholson was tried in this Court for murder before Mr. Justice Hawkins, and I took the evidence that was then given—Margaret Hubbard was examined as a

witness for the prosecution—I took a shorthand note of her evidence—the report of it in the Sessions Paper is correct.

JAMES NICHOLSON (Re-examined). The defendant is the Margaret Hubbard who gave evidence against my brother Morris.

The evidence was then read from the "Sessions Paper," Vol. XCIV., page 647.

The Jury, without hearing Counsel, found the prisoner


NEW COURT.—Monday, November 19th, 1883.

Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-6
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

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6. PATRICK MCDONOUGH (62) PLEADED GUILTY to uttering counterfeit coin, and to a conviction of a like offence in June, 1882.— Two Years' Hard Labour.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-7
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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7. WILLIAM BOWSLER (21) to stealing while employed in the Post-office five letters containing postage stamps of Her Majesty's Postmaster-General.— Five Years' Penal Servitude. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-8
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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8. ALFRED LYDDON (19) to stealing while employed in the Post-office two letters, one containing a season ticket and the other two half-sovereigns, the property of Her Majesty's Postmaster-General.— Five Years' Penal Servitude. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-9
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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9. JOHN HENRY CROWDY (18) to stealing while employed in the Post-office, a letter containing 24 stamps and 5s. the property of Her Majesty's Postmaster-General.— Five Years' Penal Servitude. And [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-10
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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10. CHARLES BUIST (29) to three indictments for stealing three letters containing money and post-office orders, the property of Her Majesty's Postmaster-General.— Five Years' Penal Servitude. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-11
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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11. HENRY WHITEHOUSE (23) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.

MESSRS. LLOYD and HICKS Prosecuted.

JOHN WARREN . I am a barman at Short's wine bar, 333, Strand—on 19th October, about 11 p.m., I saw the prisoner and Jackson (See next case) in the bar drinking together—they had two glasses of wine on the counter—Jackson asked me for two penny cakes and put down a bad half-crown—I took it up and said "This is bad"—he said "Let me look at it?" but I handed it to the manager, who bent it and banded it back to him—he then made a disturbance and called the manager a b—fool—Partridge was there and told the officer to eject him—the prisoner stood there all the time but did not interfere in any way—the officer put them both out, and Partridge followed them—I do not know who served the wine.

GEORGE JACKLIN . I am manager at Short's—Warren gave me this coin, and I bent it with a cork-squeezer and said "This is counterfeit," and held it up—Jackson said "I could bend a b—good coin with that machine"—I sent out for a constable to have him ejected, but I received other information and gave him in charge for tendering counterfeit coin—he abused me and used bad language—he said he was a hard-working man, a carman, and showed his hands—that was in the prisoner's hearing—I did not serve either of them.

THOMAS PARTRIDGE (Police Sergeant H). On 19th October, about 11 p.m., I was at Short's in the front bar and saw the two men come in—Jackson called for two glasses of wine, and I believe he paid—they were in conversation together for a minute or two—Jackson then asked for

two penny cakes, which were on the counter, and tendered a half-crown—the barman said "This is a bad half-crown"—I was close behind him—Mr. Warren showed it to him and said "It is bad"—he said "How do you know it is bad?"—he said "I have bent it"—Jackson said he could bend any b—coin with that thing—Whitehouse was standing behind Jackson but did not interfere—Sergeant Phillips came in in uniforn, and they both turned to go to the door—I then saw this piece of newspaper drop from Jackson's hand—I picked it up—it contained a bad half-crown—the Sergeant was going to eject Jackson, and I said "Take that man in custody—I seized Whitehouse and we took them to the station—the manager gave them in charge—I searched them both, and found on Jackson five shillings, three sixpences, and 1s. 4 1/2 d. in copper all good; and on Whitehouse a good florin and 2 1/2 d.—I said to Whitehouse "I shall take you in custody for being concerned with other men in passing this coin"—he said "I passed none"—I said "No, but you were with them, and you have been in conversation with them while I have been in the bar and when he dropped this one"—he said "I have only known him a day or two, he took me in there to drink."

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. I did not see you pay for anything.

JAMES PHILLIPS (Police Sergeant ER). I was called to Short's wine-shop and saw the prisoner and Jackson together in the bar—Jackson was arguing with the manager, who said, referring to Jackson, "I want this man turned out, he has tendered me a half-crown which is bad"—as I was turning Jackson out he said "I am a master carman, do you think I should do such a thing as tender bad money?"—as they went out, Partridge said in their hearing "Take him in custody," referring to Jackson, and immediately afterwards Jackson said "Take this," referring to the bent half-crown—I did not see any coin drop.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . I am Inspector of Coin to Her Majesty's Mint—these two coins are bad, but of different dates—it is the custom to carry bad coin in paper until it is used.

Prisoner's Defence. I had known Jackson a few days; we had a drink together, and he called for some cakes. They said the coin was bad, and we were both taken in custody. I did not know he had a half-crown.


19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-12
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown; Guilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

Related Material

12. HENRY WHITEHOUSE was again indicted, with HENRY JACKSON (26) , for unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.

MESSRS. LLOYD and HICKS Prosecuted.

JOHN WARREN . (This witness's evidence in the last case was read over to him from the short hand writer's notes, to which he assented.)

GEORGE JACKLIN . (This witness's evidence was read over to him, to which he assented.)

Cross-examined by Jackson. I called a constable to eject you, and directly he came you both turned to go out, but were arrested by Inspector Partridge.

THOMAS PARTRIDGE . (This witness's evidence was read over to him, to which he assented.)

Cross-examined by Jackson. I was in the bar when you entered—I heard you call for drink, but did not see you pay—when you both turned to the door this coin dropped from you, and I said to the sergeant "Don't let that man go, take him in custody."

JAMES PHILLIPS (Police Sergeant) assented to his former evidence.

Cross-examined by Jackson. I did not take you in custody in the street, outside a jeweller's shop, 20 yards from the house—you had no opportunity of getting away.

THOMAS STAMMERS . I keep the Crown and Anchor, Brewer Street, Golden Square—on 20th September Jackson I believe, came in with Isabella Matthews—he called for drink, and put down a bad half-crown—I did not find out that it was bad till they had gone—I gave it to Whitehead—on 20th September I saw Matthews, and gave her in charge—she was eventually brought here.

Cross-examined by Jackson. I recognise you now.

JOSEPH WHITEHURST (Policeman X 5). On 9th September Mr. Stammers gave Isabella Matthews into my custody with these two two half-crowns—she was tried and acquitted at this Court (See Vol. XCVIII., p. 675)—I saw Jackson on the other side of the road when I had Matthews in custody.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . These coins are both bad, and from different moulds—I saw the half-crowns produced on Matthews's trial, they were of different dates and moulds to these.

Jackson's Defence. The landlord said the half-crown was bad. I got excited, and said I would not go out. He sent for a constable, and then I refused to go out. Does it stand feasible that if I had known the coin was bad I should have taken all that forcing to go out? I did not know it was bad. I had been on the drink all day.

JAMES PHILLIPS (Re-examined). Jackson was quite sober.



He then PLEADED GUILTY to a conviction of felony at Clerkenwell in October, 1880.— Eighteen Months' Hard labour.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-13
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

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13. JOHN DOREN (67) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.

MESSRS. LLOYD and HICKS Prosecuted.

ELIZA JORDAN . I am barmaid to Mrs. Gould, who keeps the George the Fourth, Clerkenwell—on 8th October, about 3.30, I served the prisoner with a pint of ale—he tendered a shilling; I put it to my teeth and found it was gritty—I said "This is a bad one;" he said "I can't afford to lose it, I am a poor man, I got it in the morning in the City, and if you will give it back to me I will get it changed"—I gave it back to him, and he went out—my teeth marks were left on it, I disfigured it; he did not pay me—on Thursday, Oct. 11, about 11.30, I saw him looking in at the door; he came in and asked for half a pint of ale and a pennyworth of tobacco and tendered a shilling—I put it to my teeth, found it was gritty, and took it to my master—the prisoner was given into custody with the shilling.

THOMAS RANDLE (Detective G). I was called and found the prisoner in front of the bar—the last witness said that he had tendered a bad shilling, and another on Monday—he made no reply—the tobacco and beer were on the counter; he begged to be allowed to have the tobacco as he had none about him—he had an empty pipe in his hand—I found on him three packets of tobacco, a tobacco-box full, and a tobacco-pouch full—I asked where he lived; he said "Nowhere."

WILLIAM WEBSTER . This shilling is bad—a bad shilling sounds gritty when bitten; the sound is conducted from the teeth to the ear—a good

shilling would bend a little between the teeth, but it would not have that sound, and a bad one would be a good deal lighter.

GUILTY .— Eight Months' Hard Labour.

OLD COURT.—Tuesday, November 20th, 1883.

Before Mr. Recorder.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-14
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty; Guilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude; Imprisonment > penal servitude

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14. CHARLES ROUSE (31) and GEORGE SMITH (20) , Stealing a bale of cloth of the London and North-Western Railway Company. Second Count for receiving the same.


MR. GRAIN Prosecuted.

JAMES WATSON PARTING . I am a finisher in the employ of the Banbury Cloth Company, Limited—on 22nd Oct. I packed six pieces of cloth, each containing 54 yards, in one bale—this (produced) is one of the pieces—it was packed in the usual way, and addressed to Messrs. Hitchcock, Biggs, and Willett, Paternoster Row, London, plainly written on a card—I delivered the bale to the North-Western carman at Banbury that day—the value of it was 68l. 18s. 7d.

FREDERICK WELLS . I live at Banbury, and am carman to the North-Western Railway Company—on 22nd October I received a bale from the last witness, and delivered it at the station in the same sound state as I received it.

JOSEPH JONES . I am a checker at the Banbury Station—on 22nd October I received this bale, and sent it on in good condition loaded on truck 7,333 for Broad Street Goods Station.

JAMES GOODMAN . I am a checker at Broad Street Goods Station, London—on 23rd October I checked from truck 7,333 a bale addressed to Hitchcock, Biggs, and Willett—it was sound and in good condition—I sent it to No. 8 Arch to be loaded for delivery.

JOHN FREDERICK BORRINGTON . I am a checker at Broad Street Station—on 23rd October I was on duty at the station at about 6.15 a.m.—I received this delivery sheet—I put on the prisoner's van a bale addressed to Hitchcock, Biggs, and Willett, Paternoster Row—on the afternoon of the same day the prisoner came back after his round, and he told me there was a bale not on the load—I asked him whose it was; he said "Hitchcock and Biggs's"—there was only one bale for them on the van that day—I had helped to put it on the van myself—I told him I was sure it was on the load—he was net present when the van was loaded, he came up afterwards; he was the driver—the van had then been loaded about three hours.

ALBERT KELSEY . I was van boy with the prisoner on 23rd October, employed by Pickford and Co.—I recollect leaving Broad Street Station about 8 that morning with a loaded van, the prisoner driving—our deliveries were in the City—on that day I saw Rouse—I had seen him before that day round St. Paul's Churchyard with the prisoner with our van—I saw him on this day; he spoke to the prisoner—we delivered all our load except one large bale—I did not notice how it was addressed—we went to Pearce's coffee-house, near St. Paul's, where I saw Rouse; I don't know the name of the street—we went into the coffee-house—the prisoner asked me if I would have a pennyworth of coffee; I said "Yes"—he called for a pennyworth, and so did I—the prisoner said

"Stop there till I come back;" he then went away—I remained at the coffee-shop—he said he was going to deliver the bale—he came back in about half an hour; I got in the van and he drove away—there was no bale in the van then, it was empty—we then went back to Broad Street—I saw the prisoner in the stable two or three days after, and he said he had heard something about a bale being missed, and said "I know I did not have it on my load"—I said "Was that the bale that was in when I went to the coffee-shop?" he said "Oh, that is nothing."

Cross-examined. It was a large bale; it was heavy—I could not move it.

THOMAS RIDD . I am warehouseman to Hitchcock and Co., of Paternoster Row—on 23rd October I was expecting a bale from Banbury containing six pieces—we have never received it—the van would stop in Paternoster Row—the goods entrance is in Warwick Lane.

CAROLINE ROUSE . I live at Thomas Street, Blackfriars—my husband is manager of a coffee-shop—on Tuesday, October 23rd, about 12 o'clock, Rouse came to our house; he is my brother-in-law—he brought six rolls of cloth into the house—this is one of them—they were taken possession of by the police, who took Rouse into custody.

CHARLES ROUSE (In custody). I was formerly in the employ of Pickford's as carman—I have pleaded guilty to receiving this bale of cloth—when I was at Pickford's the prisoner was also a carman there—on the morning of 23rd October I was near St. Paul's Churchyard—I had been to look after a job—I saw the prisoner there with his van—I spoke to him; I forgot now what I said; it was something about the bale of cloth—he had got a bale in the van, which he said he would let me have—he had got a lot in the van when I first saw him—he said "You can have this bottom one when I have delivered all the others"—I said "All right"—I kept about with him while he was delivering—I afterwards saw the van empty with the exception of this one bale—that was in Farringdon Street, where Pearce's coffee-shop was—the prisoner and the boy brought the van there; I was waiting for them—the prisoner told me to follow up; Smith got up and drove as far as Blackfriars, and I jumped on behind and drove to near 38, Thomas Street—I took the bale in there—Smith stopped at a public-house near till I came back—I sold a portion of the goods to some Jews in Houndsditch—I was afterwards taken into custody at my sister-in-law's house—after selling the goods I gave the prisoner 4l. 13s. 6d. in Three Colt Lane, Bethnal Green.

Cross-examined. I have a licence as a tram conductor, and I used to stand at the corner where the trams stop to get a job—I have not been waiting for you every time the van came out—I did not on this morning say to you "Have you got anything on your van that you can give me?"—I did not ask you to have a drop of beer; you treated me to half a pint once or twice.

WILLIAM WALLER (Detective Sergeant). On 30th October I went with Inspector Pearson of the North-Western police to Tapp Street, Bethnal Green; I there saw the prisoner; I said "Is your name George Smith?"—he said "Yes"—I said "We are police officers, and are going to take you into custody for being concerned with a man named Rouse, who is in custody, for stealing a truss of cloth on the 23rd of this mouth"—he said "Me steal a truss of cloth! I never stole any cloth; I lost a truss of cloth for Hitchcock and Co., and when I got back to the station I reported it,

and if Rouse says I stole a truss of cloth he is telling a lie; I have not seen him for a fortnight"—I took him to the station, and when he saw Rouse he pointed to him and said "That is the man that stole my cloth."

JAMES HENRY PEARSON . I am one of the chief inspectors of the North-Western Bail way Company—I took Rouse into custody, and took down in writing what he said to me voluntarily—I subsequently read it over to him—this is it: "About a week ago I saw Pickford and Co.'s carman, George Smith, at St. Paul's Churchyard; the van boy was not present, I believe he was in a coffee-house—I and Smith drove to a public-house in Thomas Street, Blackfriars; I left him there, and I brought the truss and the van to my brother's house—I cut open a truss in the van and carried the rolls upstairs—the truss contained six rolls; I sold three to a Jew last Saturday for 8l.; I met him in Houndsditch; I took the three rolls the same day to the Jew's; I don't know his name nor where he resides; I took the cloth away on a costermonger's barrow the same night"—when I read that to Smith he said it was not true.

Prisoner's Defence. All I can say is that Rouse stole the truss off my van in Cannon Street.

SMITH— GUILTY .— Five Years' Penal Servitude. ROUSE— Seven Years' Penal Servitude.

It was stated by Mr. Coppin, of the North-Western Company, that Rouse had endeavoured to induce various carmen to commit similar robberies.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-15
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

Related Material

15. WILLIAM HOMES (19) , * Unlawfully firing a pistol at a railway train on the London and North-Western Railway Company's railway, thereby endangering the safety of persons in the train.

MR. GRAIN Prosecuted.

GEORGE ALDRIDGE . I am a signalman employed by the North-Western Railway Company at Gospel Oak Station—on 14th September, at 4.13 in the afternoon, I was on duty in the box—two or three trains were due to pass one way or the other at that time—I noticed some young lads and boys coming across a piece of waste ground near the signal-box, which is the property of the North-Western Company—I heard the report of a firearm, and a shot struck the front of the box—I looked out immediately, and saw about a dozen lads all together about 30 yards away—I did not see any firearm in the hand of anybody—there was a down train just coming in—I signalled to the station by a bell for immediate assistance.

JAMES MARKS . I am station inspector at Gospel Oak—in the absence of the stationmaster I take his place—on 14th September I was on duty at the station, and heard a signal from the box; it was six gongs, which meant a call for assistance—I went to the box at once; the signalman said something to me, I got over a fence, and saw three largish lads and a number of small boys—to the best of my belief the prisoner was one of them—when they saw me they ran away, and when I ran after them the prisoner, I believe, turned round and fired a pistol at me—I heard the report—they got away.

GEORGE WILLIAM BRIANT (A boy). On 14th September I was playing on a piece of waste land near Gospel Oak Station with some other boys and lads—the prisoner was there with us; I know him—he had a pistol in his hand; he was firing at trains passing by—I saw him do so three

times—I also saw him fire at the stationmaster and at the signal-box, and I saw the man look out of the box—the prisoner said if we told he would jump on us.

JAMES WILKINSON . I am 13 years old—I was with Briant on the 14th—the prisoner was with us—he had a pistol—I saw him fire at the trains passing by and at the signal-box—the signalman shouted out to him—I saw Mr. Marks running after us, and the prisoner turned round and fired at him—he said if I told he would kill me.

The prisoner, in his statement before the Magistrate and in his defence, denied firing at any trains or any persons, and declared that he was only firing at a tin pot on the bunk for amusement.

GEORGE WILLIAM BRIANT (Re-examined). I saw a tin pot—the prisoner did not fire at that.

JAMES WILKINSON (Re-examined). I saw a tin pot there—the prisoner did not fire at that.

GUILTY .— Four Months' Hard Labour.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-16
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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16. THOMAS RILEY (28) and THOMAS WRIGHT (24) , Unlawfully attempting to commit an unnatural offence.



19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-16a
VerdictNot Guilty > no evidence

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16* MARGARET KHUL , For libel.—MR. CRISPE, for the prosecution, offered no evidence.


19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-17
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

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17. ALFRED BELL (29) PLEADED GUILTY to feloniously marrying Susannah Deane, his wife being then alive.— Three Months' Hard Labour.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-18
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

Related Material

18. WILLIAM HENRY PICKARD (24) to feloniously marrying Catherine Annie Mansfield, his wife being then alive.— Twelve Months' Hard Labour. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-19
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

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19. JOHN LEARY (19) to burglary in the dwelling-house of Mr. Berry, and stealing a box of drawing instruments and a box of cigars, and three pairs of boots and three vests, the goods of other persons.— Nine Months' Hard Labour. And [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-20
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

Related Material

20. WASHINGTON MOORE (28) to five indictments for stealing various sums of money, dress materials, and drapery goods of James Spence and another, his masters.— Eighteen Months' Hard Labour. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

NEW COURT.—Tuesday, November 20th, 1883.

Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-21
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

Related Material

21. JOHN UNDERDOWN (25) PLEADED GUILTY to two indictments for stealing whilst in the employ of the Post-office, three letters containing postage stamps and money, the property of Her Majesty's Postmaster-General.— Five Years' Penal Servitude.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-22
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

Related Material

22. ELLEN MCCARTHY (43) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.

MR. LLOYD Prosecuted.

WILLIAM JAMES JONES . I am manager of the One Tun, Goodge Street, Tottenham Court Road—on October 27, about 3 30 p.m., the prisoner came in for half a quartern of gin, and gave me a florin; I said "You know this is bad"—she said "No," and that she had no more money—I said "Where did you get it?"—she said "From Jacobs, of Govent Garden"—I said "Have you any objection for me to send any one with you to see?"—she said "No. I don't want to be shown up"—she was taken before a Magistrate, remanded, and then discharged—I broke the coin in the tester and gave it to Pierce.

JOHN PIERCE (Policeman E 94). The prisoner was searched at the station and no coin found on her—she was discharged by the Magistrate—I produce the coin.

EMMA CARR . My husband is a draper in Little Earl Street, Soho—on November 2, about 3 o'clock, the prisoner came in for an ounce of yarn and gave me a florin—I gave her 1s. 10d. change and she left; I put it in the till; there was no other florin there—I afterwards gave it to my husband to give to my sister Ellen Lawrence—the prisoner came back about a quarter of an hour afterwards and asked for two ounces of yarn the same sort she had previously had, and gave me another bad florin—I handed it to my husband, who broke it in half with his teeth and gave her in charge—I said to her "It is bad, and the first one you gave me was bad also"—she said "I have not been in the shop before"—while she was away 18s. was given to Mr. Unwin to take to my sister; this florin was with it, but no other florin—I identify this coin.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. I can swear you are the woman who came in first—I recognised you directly you came back.

SAMUEL UNWIN . I live at 11, Denmark Place, Crown Street, Soho—on 2nd November Mrs. Carr handed me some loose silver; I cannot describe it—I took it as it was and gave it to Miss Lawrence the same as I received it.

ELLEN LAWRENCE . I am Mrs. Carr's sister and live at 35, Little Earl Street, five doors from her—on 2nd November Unwin handed me two half-crowns, one florin, six shillings, and five shillings' worth of coppers—about a quarter of an hour afterwards Mrs. Carr came to me; I examined the money with her and detected a bad florin, which I gave to her.

WILLIAM BISHOP (Policeman E 250). On November 2, about 3.30, I was called, and Mrs. Carr gave the prisoner into my charge for passing bad florins, one of which I received from her, and the other from her husband—I said to the prisoner "I shall take you for passing bad florins"—she said "I have done nothing that I know of"—she was standing in front of the counter, and I took from her hand a sixpence and two pence.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . These coins are bad.

The Prisoner's Statement before the Magistrate. "I have nothing to say only I was in the shop once, not twice."

Prisoner's Defence. I met a woman who asked me if I would go and get her two ounces of wool; she gave me a florin. I went, and the prosecutrix put it in her mouth and bent it, and sent for the other florin. I am innocent of being in the shop before, but I do not know whether the other woman had been in.

GUILTY .**— Fifteen Months' Hard Labour.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-23
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

Related Material

23. SAMUEL WEST (18) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.


HENRY JAMES PASCAL . I keep the Iron Founders' Arms, Bridge Street, Greenwich—on Saturday, October 27, the prisoner came in for a twopenny cigar and gave me a bad florin—I went round the bar and detained him and gave him in custody—I asked him if he had any more—he said "No," this is what I have got, and pulled out some good silver and copper—he said when the constable came in "It is quite a mistake; I have been to Woolwich; I have no more bad money."

EDWARD FLOOD (Policeman R 74). Mr. Pascal gave the prisoner in my charge—he said nothing—I found on him five half-crowns, two shillings, a sixpence, and 2 1/2 d.—he said at the station "It is a mistake; I got it in change for a sovereign at Aldgate. I have been to Woolwich to see a young lady, but did not meet her."

FRANCIS HENRY VOAK . I am manager to Mr. Jordan, tobacconist, of King William Street, City—on 10th November, about 10 a.m., I served the prisoner with a pennyworth of tobacco—he tendered a shilling—I said "This is a queer one"—I kept it in my left hand, opened the till, gave him 11d. change, and bent the shilling in the tester in his presence and said "Do you know it is bad?"—he said "No, I got it for wages from St. Katherine's Docks"—he gave me a good shilling, and I let him keep the change, which was a sixpence and 5d.

WILLIAM MATTHEWS (City Policeman 84). On 10th November Mr. Voak gave the prisoner in my charge—I said "Where did you get this bad coin from?"—he said "From the docks"—I said "Have you any more bad coins on you?"—he said "No"—I took him to the station, searched him, and found 1s. 6d. in good silver, 5d., a pennyworth of tobacco, and a small book.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . This shilling and florin are bad.

The Prisoner's Statement before the Magistrate. "If I was guilty of uttering a bad shilling, do you think I would have stopped in the shop and made up a cigarette? I do not call any witnesses."

FRANCIS HENRY VOAK (Re-examined). He made up a cigarette while we were waiting for the officer; he could not have left.

Prisoner's Defence. If I had been guilty I should not have left the change on the counter while I made a cigarette, I should have got away as quick as I could. As to the case of Mr. Pascal, I got the coin in change.

GUILTY **— Fifteen Months' Hard Labour.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-24
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

Related Material

24. CHARLES WILLIAMS (24) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.


HERBERT WITTON . I am barman at the Blue Anchor, Temple Street, City—on 3rd November, about 9.30, the prisoner and another man came in talking together—the other man asked for a glass of port wine and a small lemon—he gave me a florin—I gave him 1s. 8d. change and put the coin in the till—no other florin was there—in consequence of something which was said to me I examined the till about 10 p.m. and found this bad florin (produced)—there was no other florin there; it was the one I took from the man that was with the prisoner—I gave it to the sergeant—the prisoner was put with 13 or 14 other men, and I identified him.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. There were more than seven men—I did not point you out—I was shut in while the charge was taken, and you were put in your place before I came out—nobody pointed you out to me—I have not the least doubt you are the man.

JANE PURVIS . I am barmaid at the White Swan, Temple Street, City—on 3rd November, about 10.30 p.m., the prisoner and another man came in chatting together—the prisoner asked for a glass of port wine and a glass of beer—they came to 5d.; he tendered this florin (produced)—I told him it was bad—he said nothing, but put down a good one—I told my master, who came, and they drunk their drink and rushed out.

JOHN FINLEY . I keep the White Swan—on 3rd November, about 10.15, Purvis showed me this bad florin and I said to the prisoner, "Where did you get this from?"—he said "I got it from the European, in change"—I said "If I can get a policeman I will take you up"—they immediately rushed out—I went out and found the prisoner at the Welsh Harp and gave him in custody.

DANIEL RACKSTRAW (City Policeman 498). On 3rd November, soon after 10 p.m., I heard a hue and cry in Temple Street, and saw the prisoner running up the street in front of a crowd, who were shouting "Stop him!"—he turned into the Welsh Harp—I went in a few minutes afterwards and found him concealed in the water-closet; he was sitting on the. closet, but was not undressed—I sent for Mr. Finley, who charged him—he made no reply—I found on him this bad half-crown and four good half-crowns, a florin, a shilling, a sixpence, and four pence in a purse.

Cross-examined. You did not say "I will not go out till I have done my clothes up."

WILLIAM WEBSTER . This florin and half-crown are bad; this other florin is bad—the florins are of the same date, but not of the same mould.

The prisoner, in his statement before the Magistrate and in his defence, denied being the wan who passed the coin, and stated that he was not in company with any one from the time he left the West End till he was locked, up, and that the policeman had to wait outside wait closet while he adjusted his clothes.

GUILTY .— Twelve Months' Hard Labour.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-25
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

Related Material

25. FRANCIS JOHN HARRIS (17) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.


THOMAS GOULDING . I am a receiver at the post-office in Lupus Street, Pimlico—on Saturday, 6th October, about 5 o'clock, a man resembling the prisoner in height, dress, and appearance came in—I cannot swear to him, but I have no doubt in my mind—he went to the far end of the shop, where there is a desk with a small pigeon-hole where people go for orders, but not for stamps—he asked for 12s. worth of stamps, and put a half-sovereign and two shillings on the desk—I drew it down, and he left the shop—I found the half-sovereign was bad, and did not put it in the till; I laid it aside—on the following Tuesday, 9th October, the prisoner came in about 4.30—I can swear to him; I recognised him the moment he asked for the stamps, and before he tendered the money—he asked for 12s. worth of stamps, and gave me a bad half-sovereign and two shillings—I said "This is a bad half-sovereign," and ran round the counter to prevent his going out—I said "I believe you are the same man who passed a bad half-sovereign here on Saturday;" he made no reply—I said "Have you any more bad coins about you?" he did not reply—I said "How did you come by them? where did you get this from?" he said "I have been saving the money up to send some stamps to my sister"—I said "I shall send for a constable and have you locked up"—I gave him in custody—he went to the same part of the counter on Tuesday—no one was in the place, and he could have gone to the proper stamp counter—it was very dark where he went—I said at the station that I believed he was the same

man who had the stamps on Saturday; he said "You will have to prove that"—these (produced) are the coins.

WILLIAM WYBROW (Policeman B 193). I took the prisoner, and. received these two half-sovereigns from Mr. Goulding—going to the station the prisoner said that he was collecting money for his sister—I asked him where he got the coins; he made no reply—I found two shillings and a penny on him.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . These half-sovereigns are bad; they are made of white metal, and gilt by the battery—they are from different moulds—they are worth nothing.

The Prisoner's Statement before the Magistrate. "I can only say I did not know the coin was bad, or I should not have tried to pass it. As for the other, I have got witnesses to prove that I was not there."

The prisoner called

HENRIETTA HARRIS . I am the prisoner's sister, and live at 14, Howland Street, Marylebone—I am an assistant governess—on Saturday, 6th October, the prisoner came in about 3.30 as near as I can remember, I am not quite confident as to the time—I am at home all day on Saturdays—I know he was in before 4 o'clock, and did not leave the house till 9 o'clock—my mother returned from her work about 4.30; my brother was at home with me then, and helped me to get the tea—my mother, came in at that time, and said "I will run and fetch the vegetables"—my brother and I demurred, as we were waiting for tea, and we sat at the tea-table—I don't know the time we arose, but I can confidently say that my brother did not go out till 9 o'clock that evening, when I had to go out, and a friend of his accompanied me part of the way—what presses 6th October on my mind is that I had written to a lady and had an answer, and that was the last Saturday that he was at home.

By the COURT. I had no watch, and I did not look at the clock—I don't know how far we live from Lupus Street—we had tea in the back room ground floor—we got up from tea about 6.30—we were two hours over it because we had some children, and were playing with them—we only have two rooms, and my brother was in one or other of them till 9 o'clock—I know the time the tea came in because the paraffin oil man generally came about that time, and we both asked the little girl to fetch some oil, and as my brother came in he brought the paraffin oil with him.

MARY JANE HARRIS . I am the prisoner's mother, and live at 14, Howland Street, Marylebone—on Saturday, October 6th, I came home from work; I looked at the church clock opposite the Langham Hotel and hurried home with a little meat I had bought for the children's tea—my son asked me to allow the little children in to tea, and we sat down to tea as near as possible at a quarter to 5 o'clock—we sat a, long time playing with the children; I did a little work, and my daughter took it home for me—I was very anxious for fear the lady should have gone to, bed—the prisoner did not leave my sight more than five minutes from the time I came in—he could not go out without my knowing it, because one room opens into the other—I am a carpet sewer, but since my husband's death my health has been very bad, and I get what work I can.

MARY IRELAND . I go to school, and live in the same house as Mrs. Harris, on the ground floor—on Saturday, 6th October, at 4 p.m., I was cleaning the doorstep, when the prisoner came in and asked me to take

the paraffin oil to my sister—I am not a servant in the house—my little sisters had tea with them, and he called me in to have a cup of tea—it was 4 o'clock when he took the oil in, and we went to tea about 5 o'clock—I saw the prisoner up to about 9 o'clock—he has a sister in Bath, besides the one living with me.

Prisoner's Defence. Gentlemen, don't you think I am as liable as any other man to get a bad half-sovereign, and if you go to a shop with it and get locked up, you are the loser of the half-sovereign as well as getting punished. The prosecutor first said that he had a doubt, and then he charged me with it. If you have a doubt are you to charge a man with uttering it?


19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-26
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

Related Material

26. CHARLES STERK (41) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.


ELIZABETH BEARD . My father keeps the Cross Keys, Theobald's Road—on 8th November, about 9 o'clock, the prisoner and Bates came in—Sterk called for some beer, which came to 3d.—a half-crown was put down—I showed it to my father, who said it was bad—a constable was-sent for—two plain-clothes ones came, and I saw the prisoner strike them both—he had asked for a pen and ink, which were brought, but I did not hear them ask him any question, except to ask his name and address—I did not hear him answer.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. The constables were not drinking in the private bar with the landlord, they were called in—you struck them before they struck you.

RICHARD ISAAC BEARD . I Keep the Cross Keys—the prisoner and Bates came in with another man between 8.30 and 9 o'clock—my daughter; served them, and brought me a half-crown—I found it was bad, and said "This is a bad one, I shall detain you"—they said nothing—I went round the bar and asked their names and addresses—Bates wrote down his address, and Sterk took up the pen, but threw it down and said "Write it yourself"—I had sent my potman for a constable—they were not drinking in the house—I said "These parties are trying to pass bad half-crowns"—he said "Have you any more;" they said "No"—they were given in charge, and the constables proceeded to search Sterk, and he struck them both with his fists—he was very violent; they had to hold him down while they searched his pockets—other constables were sent for on account of his violence—they were taken away.

JAMES LOCKYER (Policeman E 208). Carter and I were called to the Cross Keys as we were passing, by a man at the door, not the landlord—we were in plain clothes—we both went in—Mr. Beard showed me this half-crown, and said that Sterk had tried to pass it—Sterk made no reply, nor did Bates—the landlord asked their names and addresses—Sterk asked for a pen and ink, took the pen up, threw it down again, and said that he would not write it, and that I had better do so—I said "We are two police officers, and shall have to search you"—Sterk struck me, and bent my finger back, it has been very painful ever since; and he struck Carter too—we sent for assistance, and two constables came—I searched them, and found on Sterk 1s. 6d. in good silver and a penny, and on Bates 4s. 4d.—I have been treated by the divisional surgeon.

Cross-examined. I did not rush at you like a bull dog—I did not strike you first—we were not in the private bar drinking.

JOHN CARTER (Policeman E 394). I was with Lockyer—we were fetched by a man not the landlord—we had not been drinking in the bar—the landlord paid "These two men have tried to pass a bad half-crown"—I said we are two police officers, you had better give your names and addresses," upon which Sterk struck me three times in the chest, and struck Lockyer three times—Bates did not assault anybody—I shut the door and sent for an officer—Sterk was very violent at the station.

Cross-examined. I think the landlord was standing at the door when we went in.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . This half-crown is bad.

The prisoner, in his statement before the Magistrate and in his defence, said that he did not know the coin was bad, and that the constable assaulted him first; that they were drunk, and were drinking in the house when he went in.

GUILTY . He then PLEADED GUILTY** to a conviction of uttering counterfeit coin in June, 1882, having then been previously convicted of felony.— Five Years' Penal Servitude.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-27
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

Related Material

27. HENRY BATES (25) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.

MESSRS. LLOYD and HICKS Prosecuted.

ELIZABETH BEARD . This witness's evidence in the last case was read over to her from the shorthand writer's notes, to which she assented, and added: Bates stood very quietly, I have nothing to say against him—he drank some of the liquor and paid for it with three penny-pieces.

RICHARD ISAAC BEARD and JOHN LOCKYER repeated their former evidence.

JOHN CARTER . This witness assented to his former evidence, and added: On the way to the station Bates said "I am sorry I met Sterk to-night; I knew he had a bad half-crown when he went into the house."

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. I asked where you lived; you said "1, Palmer Street, Westminster"—I went there and saw a female, who said "You want Graham. I believe"—I did not tell your wife I had found live half-crowns or five florins.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . This half-crown is bad.

The Prisoner's Statement before the Magistrate. "Does it stand reasonable that I should say to the constable that I knew it was a bad half-crown?"


19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-28
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

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28. JAMES LEVER (20) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.

MESSRS. LLOYD and HICKS Prosecuted.

CHARLES YOUNG . I keep the King's Arms, Red Lion Passage, about 80 yards from the Red Lion and Boar—on 1st November, about 10.30 p.m., my son served the prisoner, and gave me a bad George III. half-crown in the prisoner's presence—I tried it on a slate, and it left a mark like a pencil; it felt slippery—I said "If I did my duty I ought to break this up"—he said "Don't break it up; give us a chance"—I gave it back to him, and he paid my son with 1 1/2 d.—I saw him at Bow Street on November 5th among ten others and picked him out—I am quite certain of him.

Cross-examined. You are the man I saw in my bar.

GEORGE THEOBALD . I keep the Red Lion and Boar—on 1st November

I served the prisoner with 1 1/2 d., of gin—he tendered this bad half-crown, a Victoria one—I gave him in charge with the coin.

WILLIAM COTMORE (Policeman E 288). I took the prisoner—he said he did not know the coin was bad—I found on him three shillings and 1s. 3 1/2 d. in bronze—I produce the half-crown.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . This half-crown is bad, and from the same mould as that in the lastcase—lead would mark a slate, but harder metal would scratch it.

The Prisoner's Statement before the Magistrate. "I am not guilty. I was never in the last witness's house."

Prisoner's Defence. I did not know it was bad money, and I did not go near the man's house at all; he has made a mistake in picking me out.

GUILTY .— Nine Months' Hard Labour.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-29
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

Related Material

29. JAMES CATTY (27) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.


JAMES EDWARDS . I am barman at the Victoria, Farringdon Road—on 30th October, about 4.50 p.m., I served the prisoner with a half-pint of ale—he gave me this shilling—I found it was bad and called a police-man—he rushed to the door before anything was said to him, and did not finish his drink.

SAMUEL WATERMAN (Policeman G 241). I was called, and as I entered the house the prisoner rushed past me—I seized him and took him to the bar—the barman said that he had passed a bad shilling—he said "I was not aware it was bad"—I found in his pocket this florin, two sixpences, a threepenny bit, and threepence—he told the Magistrate he was coming down Holborn and picked up the coins, but he said in the waiting room that he had been out all day and changed a half-sovereign.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . This florin and shilling are bad.

The prisoner, in his statement before the Magistrate and in his defence, said that he picked up the coins, and did not know they were bad.

GUILTY .— Nine Months' Hard Labour.

FOURTH COURT.—Tuesday, November 20th, 1883.

Before Robert Malcolm Kerr, Esq.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-30
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

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30. WILLIAM DUDLEY (30) PLEADED GUILTY to burglary in the dwelling house of Evan Williams, and stealing a pair of shoes and 15l., his property.— Twelve Months' Hard Labour.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-31
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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31. JOHN WALKER (32) to unlawfully attempting to obtain 16l. 10s. from Edith Davis and obtaining from Joseph Fox 5l. 15s., from Archibald Anderson 5l. 15s., and from Thomas Bartlett 3l. 3s., by false pretences, with intent to defraud; also to a previous conviction of misdemeanour in April, 1883.— Five Years' Penal Servitude. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-32
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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32. THOMAS MOORE (45) and CHARLES GREGORY (29) , Indecently exposing the person of Gregory.

MR. BURNIE Prosecuted.


19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-33
VerdictsGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentencesImprisonment > penal servitude; Imprisonment > hard labour

Related Material

33. GEORGE SMITH (26) PLEADED GUILTY to stealing 35 yards of merino and other goods of the value of 100l., the goods of Thomas Wallis, his master, and THOMAS HENRY SKINNER (32) to stealing 5 yards of merino and other goods of the same person, his master. Skinner was recommended to mercy by the prosecutor.

SMITH— Five Years' Penal Sertitude.

SKINNER— Six Months' Hard Labour.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-34
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

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34. JOHN MORRIS alias JOYCE (21) , Stealing three coats, two vests, and other articles, and 7l. 14s. of Allan Vesey Ussher, his master.

MR. BURNIE Prosecuted,

ALLAN VESEY USSHER . I am an officer in the Cameronian Scottish Rifles—in July, 1880, I was in the 1st Middlesex Militia—the regiment was encamped on Hounslow Heath, and the prisoner was then my regimental servant—his name was John Morris—I am sure he is the man—about 8 o'clock one evening I went to mess, and did not return till midnight to my tent, where I found the prisoner's kersey and frock and cap—I went to the sergeant of the guard, made inquiries, and found the prisoner missing—I examined my tent—all the drawers were open—I missed a jacket, several shirts, a clock, a scarf pin, and other articles—I gave information and a description of the prisoner to the police.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. When I saw you again you were in the prisoner's dock.

JOHN BRACKENBURY (Policeman T 123). From information received I went to Mr. Ussher's tent in July, 1880—I found it in disorder—I made inquiries about the prisoner, who was missing, but heard nothing about him till 15th October this year, when I saw him detained at Caledonian Road Police-station on this charge—I asked his name; he said John Joyce—I said "Your name is John Morris"—he said "No it is not"—I said "I take you into custody on the charge of stealing a quantity of things belonging to your master from his tent on Hounslow Heath in 1880"—he said "You have made a great mistake; I never was at Hounslow, and I never was in the Militia"—I took him to Hounslow Station and called the sergeant and his staff from the barracks, who identified the prisoner—he still denied he was the man.

Cross-examined. I did not tell you that if you were not identified at Hounslow you would be let off—I waited till the officer came that you were given up to—I did not say as you were going into the station, that you had better say you were the man, as it would save a lot of trouble—you did not ask the sergeant why he knew you were the man, and he did not say "Because I do"

JAMES PLUNKETT . I am colour-sergeant of the 4th Battalion Middlesex Regiment, which was formerly the 1st Middlesex Militia—I remember the robbery from Mr. Usher's tent on the 14th July, and the prisoner as being a private at that time in the 1st Middlesex Militia, and servant to Mr. Ussher—he deserted on that day—I am quite certain he is the man.

Cross-examined. I know you by your description and particular appearance, I suppose, and by knowing you in the regiment for parts of two years—you would go up for 27 days if you stopped—I should say you were up for a week and two days—the Militia were called on the 12th and you deserted on 21st or 22nd—I did not belong to your Company—I saw you on parade and at drill.

ALBERT WEBBTON . I am staff-sergeant of the 4th Battalion Middlesex Regiment, formerly the Middlesex Militia—in 1880, when the regiment was encamped on Hounslow Heath in July, I was colour-sergeant—I remember the prisoner; he was private and servant to Mr. Ussher in

"E" Company, which was my Company—he deserted after this robbery in July—I am sure he is the same man.

Cross-examined. I had to pay you and tell you your duties and parades—I can say nothing about the robbery.

GUILTY .— Twelve Months' Hard Labour.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-35
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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35. GEORGE SIMPSON (40) , Stealing an overcoat, the property of Thomas Smith.

MR. BURNIE Prosecuted.

JOHN FIELD . I am salesman to Thomas Smith, 77, Bishopgate Street Without, tailor and outfitter—about 5.10 on 2nd September my attention was called by a gentleman who had the prisoner by the collar—the prisoner bad this overcoat (produced) over his arm—it is my master's property—I had seen it two minutes before, hanging three feet inside the door—I asked the prisoner what he was doing with the coat in his possession—he said he was looking at the coat and it fell off the nail on to his arm—the nail was driven at an angle, and the coat was so hanging that it could not fall—I said "If the coat fell on to your arm there was no necessity for you to walk down Bishopsgate Street with it"—at that time he was three feet from the door—he made no answer—the gentleman said that when he first saw the prisoner he saw him take the coat from the nail, lift it down, and he was walking down the street; he got as far as the end of the shop when he caught him by the collar and brought him back.

CHARLES SPINNEY (City Policeman). The prisoner was given into my custody by the last witness—he said "I was looking at the coat and it fell off in my hands"—I took him to the station—the charge was read over to him and I asked him if he understood it—he said "No"—the charge was read over and he said "I know nothing at all about it."


19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-36
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

Related Material

36. LEO SERNE (34) , Unlawfully obtaining by false pretences from James Philips and Charles Graves 10l. and 5l. with intent to defraud.

MR. HORACE AVORY Prosecuted; MR. FULTON Defended.

CHARLES GRAVES . I am a member of the firm of Philips and Graves, 8, Cross Lane, ship brokers—we are agents for the Netherlands Steamship Company—the Holland, a ship of theirs, arrived in this country on 16th. September—soon after its arrival I saw the prisoner at my office—I was sitting close to the place he applied at—I spoke in English; he understood me apparently, and spoke to me in English—he said he came for the delivery of a box of bulbs—the box was missing; it could not be found on board—nothing else was said then—about a week afterwards he came again and pressed very hardly for the payment of 15l. for the goods—whenever I was there I spoke to him in English—I made every inquiry about the case, but could not learn any trace of it—he brought this written claim, to the office—I should say it is in his handwriting—I saw him sign his name on the back of a cheque—this was left at the office: "7, Manchester Street, King's Cross, 27th September. To Leo Serne, for the case of bulbs lost in the transit between Hamburg and London, as per value, 15l."—on 3rd October we paid him 10l. by this cheque (produced), which was cashed in the office—he endorsed it in my presence, and the money was handed to him—on 9th October the remaining 5l. was paid him by the cashier in the office, and he signed this receipt: "Received the above sum of 15l. in

settlement of all claims;" across the stamp "Leo Serné"—on both of those occasions he appeared to understand perfectly what was said in English—it was upon the faith that the case was really missing that I advanced him the 15l.—I should certainly not have done so if I had known he had got the case—this is the bill of lading of the case—it was produced by the prisoner when he came—he endorsed it and we paid him in exchange for it.

Cross-examined. I saw him write the "Leo Serné" across the stamp—there is a similarity between the signature and the document itself—I will not admit that the "Leo Serné" has every attribute of a foreigner's handwriting, and the upper portion every attribute of an Englishman's—nearly all foreigners have a different way of writing from an Englishman—I come in contact with a great many foreigners—"Leo Serné" is undoubtedly in a foreign handwriting—his signature is also on each bill of lading—I do not speak Dutch, I speak a little German—if the case had been opened and some bulbs taken out in the transit we should certainly have paid the claim—I did not see anybody with the prisoner when he came; I am not aware anybody else was with him—he said, "I wish delivery of this case of bulbs"—he spoke with an altered intonation—the case of bulbs was not to be found anywhere at that time—the clerks in the office were present—I had no difficulty in understanding what he said—I saw him a few days afterwards—he was alone then as far as I knew, I saw no one with him—we said we were very sorry we could not find his case, every search had been made for it, and therefore we must make him recompense for it—his English was such that we could understand fully what he wanted—he made no objection—the first time he came he made no claim for loss of contents—he said, "I must have my case of bulbs"—I said, "Unfortunately we cannot trace it"—there was a similar conversation on the second occasion—I will not pledge my oath he used the word "delivery"—he said each time, "I wish to have my case of bulbs"—he said not a word about the inside of it.

Re-examined. He never said a word about having found the case, or that bulbs were missing out of it—this letter (produced) dated 24th September was written from our firm by one of our clerks. (This stated that the case of flower roots for which he held the bill of lading had not arrived by s.s. Holland)—he came to see me after that—he did not say a word about my being mistaken in supposing it had not arrived.

HENRY ROSS . I am Custom House agent at the Lobby Coffee-house—it is part of my duty to pass the entries—on 18th September the prisoner asked me in the ordinary way to pass the entry for a case—I spoke English to him, I do not speak Dutch—I asked him the value of it, and he said 1l.—I said it was very trivial and said, "Where is your invoice?"—he could not produce it—he had a companion with him—he was asked whether that was right, and he said, "Say 1l."—he gave me the description, and I entered it as a case of flower roots—there is no duty on flower roots—it would have made no difference whether he described it as 15l. or 1l.—in the ordinary way I sent down a landing order to get signed into the lobby—this is it (produced).

Cross-examined. He speaks the most imperfect English, I could not understand him—I got at the bottom of the matter about the 1l. from his companion—I could not understand a word the man said; I tried to, and then I applied to the friend to know what he came about, and he

interpreted all he wanted—there is no pretence for saying the man could speak English.

Re-examined. The prisoner spoke to me, but I could not understand what he said; it was not the sort of English I could understand, it was Dutch to me.

ISAAC EMANUEL RONCKEMMER . I am a fish hawker, and live at 14, Tewkesbury New Buildings, Whitechapel—I have known the prisoner about seven or eight weeks—I went with him to the Custom House on a Monday or Tuesday in September—I saw Mr. Ross, and Mr. Sernégot a landing order from him—I spoke to Mr. Boss in the prisoner's presence—the prisoner first of all came to me and asked me if I wanted to do some jobs or work, to fetch a case of bulbs from the ship, and he would pay me for it—I said I would—somebody told me I could not get the case till I had been to the Custom House, and three of us, Serné, Mr. Smith, whom I don't think is here, and myself, went to the Custom House—the gentleman there asked the value of the case, and I could not tell, and asked Mr. Serné, and he said in Dutch "1s.," and I told it to the gentleman in English—when he had paid 2s. 6d. in the Custom House we went on board the ship and could not get the case, and went to Messrs. Philips and Graves's office—the next morning the prisoner came to me and said he had got a letter from the man who took the case of roots from the ship by mistake to his own house, and wanted him to fetch them away, as if he did not they would be sent back to Messrs. Philips and Graves—he showed me the letter; I did not read it—I, Serné, and Smith went to the Kingsland Road together to Mr. Runté's, and saw there a lady and that little boy about the case—I took the case, as Mr. Serné told me, to 3, Tewkesbury New Buildings, where Smith used to live—I left it on the pavement; the missus came out, and I told her to take care of it—Serné and Smith did not go with me—there was an address on the case, but I did not read it—as far as I saw the case was in good condition when I took it away, it was not broken at all.

Cross-examined. I did the talking at the Custom House; I did not go with him for that. I went to fetch the case away—he said he could not speak too much English, and I said I would do it for him as good as I could—I am Dutch—I don't think I wrote anything for him—I was to have 4s. a day for this business—it came to 16s., and he said he would make it all right and give me 1l.—I have never had a farthing—Serné asked me to go with him for a Saturday—I said I could not as I had not got an overcoat—he said he had got 13 or 14, and would give me one, and a pair of trousers and a waistcoat—I had the overcoat, not the other things—I have got the overcoat now, I don't think he wanted me to give that back—I am sure he put the value of the case at 1l., I am sure it was not 15l.—I went to the police-court 12 or 14 days afterwards—Mr. Smith came to me and said, "Haven't you heard anything of Serné?"—I said no, I hadn't—he said, "Well, I have lent him 3l. 10s., and afterwards I lent him 11s. and three pawn-tickets, and then he went to the police-station and told the Court that he had lost the ticket of a watch, and got the watch," and he promised Mr. Smith if he got the 15l. from Messrs. Philips and Graves that he would give him 3l., and Smith said if I didn't go to Messrs. Philips and Graves Mr. Serné would round on me, as he must have his 16s.—that was the reason I went to Philips and Graves—I don't know if I have ever seen this declaration document

before—I don't know that I ever heard anything about 1l.—I gave evidence at the police-court—I have often spoken English to the prisoner when an Englishman was with us—he could understand some words—I could only understand a word here and there—he speaks sometimes an English and sometimes a Dutch word—if somebody talked in English he would say "What is that?" and I would explain it to him.

Re-examined. I think I have heard other people talking English to him many times, but I could not say what it was.

EDWARD RUNTÉ . I live at 15, Little Essex Street, Kingsland Road—my aunt arrived on Sunday night, 16th September, in London by the s.s. Holland, and came to stay with us—on Monday morning I saw a case which came with her luggage, but which did not belong to her—there was a name and address on the case—I took a letter to that name and address, which was in the Euston Road, "Leo Serné"—they gave me three numbers to inquire at, and I took the letter to a house in Manchester Street, where he lived, and left it there—I don't remember if it was No. 7—on Wednesday morning, the 19th, the prisoner, the last witness, and another man came to our house—we delivered up the case to them, and they took it away—when the case was delivered to them it was in good condition; there was no sign of its having been broken open—besides the name and address on the case there was "L.S."

RICHARD PINNEY . I am a clerk in the employment of Messrs. Philips and Graves—I arrived by the steam ship Holland from Rotterdam on Sunday, the 17th—I saw the prisoner I think on the following Tuesday at the office of Philips and Graves—he came to apply for the release of a case of bulbs, and he presented the bill of Jading—he spoke English sufficiently clearly for me to understand him—he spoke no other language while there, and no one spoke to him in any other language in my presence—I saw him several times during September; on each occasion he came to claim the case of bulbs, which could not be found—he never said anything about having found it—I was present when the first sum of 10l. was paid; I cannot say about the second payment—on 18th October Ronckemmer called at the office and made a communication to me, which I reported to my principals, with the result that I went to Little Essex Street, Kingsland Road, and then to Devonshire House, Bishopsgate Street, where I found the prisoner had an office—his name was on the door—he was not in—I went downstairs, and remained at the street door till he came, and I went up to him and said "Good morning, Mr. Serné, you have seen me before; you probably remember me. I have called with reference to the case of bulbs, for which you received 15l., and which was not lost as you said, and which you know all about"—he seemed rather surprised—I said "You have made yourself amenable to the law, and my instructions are to give you into custody"—he hesitated, and then at lost said "I have not got 15l. now, but if you will wait here I will send and try and get it"—I forbade his going, and remained there, and sent a message to our principals—I allowed him to go upstairs to his office, and I went up after I had sent to the office—I knocked at the door—ultimately he opened it, and wanted me to go inside—I said "No, I can communicate all I have to say here; I am extremely sorry, but I have instructions to give you into custody for obtaining the 15l. fraudulently from my people"—he said he did not wish to go through the streets in the company of a policeman, and then I walked

with him to the nearest police-station—he never said a word about having made the claim in respect of bulbs missing from the case—the first we heard of that was when he was charged at the Mansion House.

Cross-examined. This is the first time I have given evidence in this matter—I went to ascertain whether he had an office there or not—I did not give him into custody at once, because I thought it best to communicate with my principals, and know from them whether they would allow him to do what he suggested—I went there by the firm's directions—a lad was in the office when I got there—I did not ask for the 15l.—I said he had no right to receive the 15l.—he said he wanted time to get it, and I sent to our firm for their ultimatum—I saw him write his name—he spoke English—he understood what I said—he said "Will you wait till I go and get 15l."—he spoke well enough to be understood; he hesitated—I should not think the Leo Serné on this and the upper part of it are in the same handwriting.

JOSEPH TETHER (City Policeman 891). The prisoner was given into my custody by Mr. Pinney, on a charge of obtaining money by false pretences—we asked him at the station if he bad the money and the case, and he said he had—I was present at the Mansion House when the prisoner made a statement—it was not made in English, but interpreted by the interpreter—I found some documents in the prisoner's possession—this is one of them (produced).

Cross-examined. He made the statement in Dutch, and it was interpreted—I did not make a note of the conversation—he does not speak very good English—he could not be understood at the Court, and it was proposed that an interpreter should be sent for.

The Prisoner's Statement before, the Magistrate. "A couple of days before the case arrived here I received a letter from Philips and Graves, enclosing the bill of lading of a case of bulbs. I took Ronckemmer with me to the Custom House. I went from there to the s. s. Holland to see about the case, and there I had the answer that my case could not be found; that very likely it was already delivered on shore. I went to Messrs. Philips and Graves alter this, and they told me that the case had gone to a wharf, and I should have it the next day. The next day I went to Philips and Graves, but the case was nowhere to be found. When I came home I had a letter that my case had come ashore at Blackwall with the passengers' luggage, and then I went to the place I had the letter from to fetch the case. I took the case away with Ronckemmer. I took the case in the presence of four witnesses, and instead of bulbs being in it of the value of 20l. they were not of the value of 10l. After that I went to Philips and Gravers's office to claim the case. I made the claim not for the loss of the case, but for the loss of the bulbs. I can bring witnesses. I signed the claim to receive the money, but I did not know what was written down. I call no witnesses here.

GUILTY .— Eighteen Months' Hard Labour.

OLD COURT.—Wednesday, November 21st, 1883.

Before Mr. Justice Stephen.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-37
VerdictNot Guilty > no evidence

Related Material

37. HANNAH PETERS (21) was charged, on the Coroner's Inquisition only, with the manslaughter of Kate Peters.

MR. POLAND, for the prosecution, offered no evidence on the Inquisition, the Grand Jury having ignored the bill.


19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-38
VerdictGuilty > lesser offence
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

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38. ELIZABETH RIXON (16) was indicted for, and charged on the Coroner's Inquisition with, the wilful murder of her newborn child.

MR. LILLEY Prosecuted; MR. MONTAGU WILLIAMS defended at the request of THE COURT.

GUILTY of endeavouring to conceal the birth. Eighteen Months' Hard Labour.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-39
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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39. EDWARD COLLINS (35) , Feloniously wounding Benjamin Bass, with intent to murder. Second Count, with intent to do grievous bodily harm.


BENJAMIN BASS . I am a butler, now living at 26, Parkworth Road, South Bermondsey—on 30th September I was butler in the employment of Mr. Townsend, of 94, Harley Street—I had been in that service two years and eight months—I have known the prisoner two years and a half—during that time he came to Harley Street to see me about five or six times—the other servants in the house saw him—on Saturday, 29th September, the family was out; they returned a little after 11—I had charge of the plate; I put it away about 5 that afternoon in a chest in the pantry—I kept the keys—after the family came home I locked the house up and put out the gas—I had been out to the Fisheries Exhibition—my bedroom is on the basement—after locking up the place and putting out the gas I heard a knocking at the area railings, after I had gone into my room—the pantry is opposite my bedroom, near the area door—I had not been to bed, I had undressed—I put on my trousers, and opened the area door and saw the prisoner—he said "Don't be alarmed, it is only me, I want to speak to you for a minute or two"—I went into my bedroom and put on my waistcoat and coat, and took the key of the area, Unlocked it, and let the prisoner in and lit the gas—the key was always kept in the pantry—the prisoner went with me into the pantry—I asked him if he had had his supper; he said "No"—I told him I had got some I had left that I could not eat myself, would he accept of it; he said "Yes, with pleasure"—he said he had got a friend outside, who he was to meet in about 10 minutes or a quarter of an hour—I got him some supper—I put the key of the area gate in the corner of the pantry, on the dresser—I gave him a steel carving-fork and a table-knife to eat his supper with—I told him he must excuse the fork, as the plate was all locked up—he said "You have locked up, then? "I said "Yes"—I don't think I told him where I had locked it up—he did not have anything to drink—he ate his supper—he then asked me to turn down the gas, and said "I will go into your room for a purpose"—I did turn down the gas, and he walked into my room, and I followed him, as the door was open—the bed was behind the door in a sort of a recess—I sat down on a box at the foot of the bed, he sat on a chair beside the table—before he came in I had put my silver watch with a chain attached to it under my pillow—I also had a gold watch—I think the chain of the silver watch could be seen—I did not observe it myself—the prisoner walked up to the side of my bed, and took the silver watch, and looked at it, and said "I thought you always

wore a gold one when you went out of an evening"—I said "Not always, particularly when I am likely to go where there is a crowd"—he said "You have got that stowed away then, I suppose"—he looked at my watch again—I thought he wanted to look at the time—he then said, "I must be going"—I said "Yes, it is getting late, I have no doubt"—I then turned towards the door to go and open it to let him out—he said "Well, I must go, good night, old boy"—that was before we had left the bedroom—he then put his left hand on my left shoulder and with his right he drew a razor across my throat—I saw the razor coming before it touched me—the blood spurted out on my hands, which I held just in front of me—I said "For God's sake, Collins, what are you doing?"—he said "You b—, I have got you now"—I struggled and got hold of his hand with the razor in it with my right hand—he threw me on the ground—I fell on my back—he tried then to get at my throat with the razor, and with my hand I kept it back and had three of my fingers out and a piece of my thumb—we had a struggle, and I got on the top of him—at that time the blood was flowing freely from my throat—a further struggle ensued and we both got on our feet—I caught hold of the bedstead—he still had the razor in his hand—he changed it into his left hand and was cutting at my throat on the left side—he drew it across my throat three times on the left—I saw the razor coming again and I put up my right hand and caught hold of it and it dropped out of my fingers—I had no razor of my own in my room; I only had one and that was in the pantry—this razor (produced) is not mine, I had never seen it before that night—I took it up and threw it at the head of the bedstead and it fell at the back of a box—the prisoner then caught hold of me and tried to put his finger down one of the cuts in my throat—I struggled with him, and he threw me on the pillow, and put the pillow on the back of my head—I think he kept me there about five minutes—I then threw him over, and I think he fell on his back—I tried to hold him, but I could not keep him down—I don't know exactly what I said at the time—he didn't say anything before he took his hands off—after we had struggled several times he tried to put his hand over my mouth and stop my breathing—he got exhausted, and I asked him then to take his hand off, which he did—he then said, "For God's sake, what have I done?"—I said "What have you done this for?"—he said "I don't know, the devil has done it"—I then got up and went along the passage towards the kitchen calling out—the prisoner kept saying "Come back and forgive me"—he followed me about as far as the kitchen door, and he stood there, and I went into the kitchen away from him—I heard him go back into the pantry, and then I came out of the kitchen—I had called out for help in my room, but not after I got into the passage—when he went into the pantry I heard the splashing of water, and he called for me to go down into the pantry and wash myself—I was very exhausted—I heard him go to the area door and heard the gate shut, and in two or three seconds I heard the key fall down into the area—I rang the nursery bell, and assistance came—a doctor came in and attended to me—I next saw the prisoner about 6 o'clock next morning—he was placed by my bedstead with a number of men, and I picked him out—I was afterwards taken to St. Thomas's Hospital, and was discharged from there on the 22nd October—I had had no quarrel with the prisoner.

Cross-examined. I thought afterwards that he did this for the purpose of robbery—I have known him for a long time and was very friendly with him—I don't think he ever came so late and had his supper with me before; if he did he went into the kitchen at 9 o'clock—he was never in my place as late as 12 before—I saw him about four or five times during the time I knew him—it might have been five or six times; I don't think more; it was not three or four times a month—I did not ask him to have a drink with the supper; I don't think I opened a bottle of ale—he didn't say "I would rather not have it," nor did I say "You look as if you had been drinking"—I had opened a bottle of ale before he came, and had a glass of it myself—I don't know whether I gave him a glass or not; I don't think I did: I might have done so; I don't say I did not—I don't think he said "I have had enough; I have been drinking whisky, and that always upsets me"—I swear he didn't say that, or anything to that effect—I did not say "I thought you had been drinking, you look like it, but a glass-won't hurt you"—when he had had his supper we talked on different matters—he had seen me with my gold watch before—I don't always wear that when I go out—when he looked at the watch he said "It is late, I must go"—that was after he had looked at it twice—he asked me to go into the bedroom and to turn down the gas; I went with him because I thought he wanted to talk about something particular—there was no one in the pantry—I wanted him to remain in the pantry, and he said "No, don't waste so much gas; I will go into your room"—he walked into it; the door was standing open—he had never been there before that I know of—I didn't ask him to stop when he wanted to go—no dispute arose between us; we were talking about the Fishery Exhibition and the things I saw there while we were in the bedroom—he had some corned beef for his supper; it only took him two or three minutes to have it—I did not give him the slightest offence, nor he me, that I know of—he is a barber's assistant—he didn't when he took out the razor make make a gash with it at my hand; it was at my throat first I am quite sure—I think we were struggling together for about three-quarters of an hour from the commencement—he seemed very exhausted—I didn't have the razor at all, only when I took it up after it had cut my fingers—I called out at the time he was cutting my throat whenever I could—I called out when I was upon him, but of course I was trying to keep him down, and to keep him away from me all the time—I don't know exactly what I called out; I called out as well as I could—I didn't call out when I heard him washing—I didn't go upstairs—I didn't ring the bell till he had gone—he was not more than two or three minutes washing himself—he didn't suggest that both of us should wash ourselves—I did not wash myself—I did not give him the key and ask him to fling it on the mat—he took it up from the pantry table—I said at the police court the words the prisoner made use of were "Lord have mercy; what have I done?"—it was something to that effect—when he took his hands off me I went along the passage towards the kitchen to get out of his way—I had no chance of calling my master down then—he was following me, and I was afraid if he had any other instrument he would cut me again—he was saying "Bass, forgive me" as he followed me—I could not get upstairs; I was exhausted, and I was afraid of him—he didn't try to take my silver watch or anything—I opened the kitchen door to go through to the larder—I could have called out there if I had got into the

larder, because the young gentlemen sleep above—it would not have been better to call upstairs—the larder is outside the house, and the inside door was locked—I didn't go into the larder; I couldn't open the door, my hands were cut so—the prisoner went back into the pantry—I was 20 feet from him or more, at the end of the passage—when he called on me to go and wash myself, I said "No, I cannot"—I did not call out, because I couldn't make any one hear unless I had gone up into the hall and rang the bell—the bell is down near the pantry—after he had gone I went and rang it—I didn't make any gash at him with the razor at any time.

HARRIET AVIS . I live at 94, Harley Street, and am cook to Mr. Townsend—on 30th September, about 20 minutes past 2, I was called by the nursery bell; it rang twice—I went down into the butler's bedroom, and there found him covered with blood—he was alone—Mr. Townsend came down, and a doctor was sent for—I did not see the prisoner at all—I have known him about two years, come Christmas—the last time I saw him was about July.

Cross-examined. I went to bed that night about 20 minutes past 11—the butler sometimes goes out of an evening, and comes home sometimes before 11, sometimes after—I don't think the prisoner could have been with him often without me seeing him—I have seen him when he has come to the gate—I only saw him come once late; that was one Sunday night, and he did not come in—he has been there several times when Bass has been out—not about four or five times a month; about five or six times during the whole time—I know he has been there when Bass has not been there, and at other times when Bass has been there—he appeared intimate, as friends would be; not so intimate as some persons—they have been out together.

MEREDITH TOWNSEND . I am a journalist, and live at 94, Harley Street—the prosecutor was my butler—on 30th September, about 2 in the morning, I was aroused by the nursery bell—I called my son, and we both went down to the basement—I heard the cook cry "Murder" before I went down—I went to the butler's bedroom, and found him covered with blood, sitting at the table with his head down—I spoke to him, and I sent for a doctor and the police—the prisoner is an entire stranger to me.

Cross-examined. My bedroom is three floors above Bass's—I think it would be physically impossible for me to hear any disturbance.

CHARLES ALFRED BALLANCE . I am a surgeon at 56, Harley Street—a little after 2 on the morning of 30th September I was called to Mr. Townsend's house—I found Bass on the floor covered with blood—he appeared to be in a very dangerous state—I examined him, and found irregular wounds across the middle of the neck—it was superficial on the left side, and deeper on the right—there were some cuts on the fingers, and another on the left hip—the windpipe had been opened—there were some bubbles of air coming up through the blood—I stopped the bleeding and stopped the wounds, and he was put to bed—he was then taken to St. Thomas's Hospital.

Cross-examined. I have not seen him since—the wound on the throat was an irregular wound, extending transversely across the middle of the neck—it was a jagged wound, not a clean cut; the razor might have been drawn several times across the throat to make that jagged wound—if

it were sharp there would have been a clean cut, but if not, you might have a jagged wound—the use of the razor several times to the throat would make such a wound an I saw—one gash would not do it—it was a dangerous wound.

MANSBORO' JONES . I was house-surgeon to St. Thomas's Hospital on Sunday, 30th September, when Baas was brought there—he was under my care until he was discharged on 22nd October—in my opinion the wound in the throat was the result of several cuts—it was on the right side of the middle line, just above the thyroid cartilage—it was a deep wound, deeper towards the middle, and more shallow outside, about an inch and a quarter long—on the left side, and I believe not continuous with this one, was another wound, about three and a half inches long, extending from the middle line to just below the lobule of the ear—this wound seemed to me to tail towards the outer part; crossing these were two other superficial wounds, somewhat circular, and not quite straight—these were the whole of the wounds on the throat—there was an oblique wound on the chin, I think on the right side—I think this razor would inflict the wounds I saw.

Cross-examined. I should say there was evidence of at least four strokes having been inflicted—he was not in immediate danger when he came to the hospital; he was collapsed, but not in danger of his life; he has never been—he has recovered now.

WILLIAM DENYER (Police Sergeant 24). On Sunday morning, 30th September, shortly after 2 o'clock, I was sent for to Mr. Townsend's—I there saw Bass—in consequence of what he said to me I went to 21, Shouldham Street—I aroused the landlady and went to the back-parlour door—after knocking several times it was opened by the prisoner in his night-shirt—I asked him if his name was Collins; he said "Yes"—I told him I should take him in custody for attempting to murder a man at 94, Harley Street—be said "Oh"—I told him to put his things on and come with me—I searched the room and found several articles of clothing—his shirt was saturated with blood, and the drawers, and there were spots of blood about his vest, coat sleeves, and necktie—I took him to the station and subsequently to 94, Harley Street, where he was identified by Bass—he was charged at the station and made no reply—I found this razor in a room at 94, Harley Street.

GEORGE KING (Police Sergeant D). On Tuesday, 2nd October, I searched the prisoner's room, which was aback parlour at 21, Shouldham Street—I there found several duplicates, eight relating to wearing apparel, six pledged within the last three months.

BENJAMIN BASS (Re-examined by MR. FILLAN). Mr. Ballance is the doctor who attended me—I did not tell him when he saw me "I had put out all the lights upstairs and was eating my supper in the pantry when I heard a knock at the door. I went to the door and asked who was there; the answer was 'It is me.' I opened the door and let the man in; he was a sort of friend of mine"—I did say "We sat in my room for some time chatting"—I did not say "There was a razor on the table, and we began to play with it, and Collins drew it across my throat in fun; soon after this we began squabbling"—I swear I did not tell Mr. Ballance that—I did not say "I struggled with the man with the razor for one hour. He had me down on my back on the floor once, and hacked for a long time at the left side of my neck; at the end of the hour I let him

out by the back door, lest he should attack me again. I then looked the door and managed to get as far as the bell, which I ran upstairs and pulled"—I never said that—I never told him anything about it—there was no razor on the table; I was not playing with it—we had no squabble.

MR. FILLAN proposed to recall Mr. Ballance in order to contradict the witness, by proving that he had made the statement referred to. MR. WILLIAMS submitted that it was not competent to MR. FILLAN to recall one witness for the prosecution for the purpose of contradicting another. MR. JUSTICE STEPHEN referred to the 54th Section of 28 Vic., c. 18, the Common Law Procedure Act, which was afterwards extended by a later act to criminal cases, and which enacted, "If a witness upon cross-examination as to a former statement made by him relative to the subject-matter of the case which is inconsistent with his previous testimony, does not distinctly admit that he made such statement, proof may be given that he did in fact make it; but before such proof can be given the circumstances of the supposed statement sufficient to designate the particular occasion, must be mentioned to the witness, and he must be asked whether or not he has made such statement" In accordance with that section MR. JUSTICE STEPHEN held that the contradiction might be given.

CHARLES ALFRED BALLANCE (Re-examined by MR. FILLAN). I had a conversation with Bass on my first visit to the house when he had sufficiently rallied—I continued that conversation at my second visit, between 5 and 6 o'clock in the morning, and I completed it about 5 o'clock—I wrote it down shortly afterwards, because I heard that another statement had been made, and I thought it might be of importance later on—I made it on the, Tuesday morning after the Sunday—he told me that he was having supper in the pantry and he heard some one at the back door, this man at the back door turned out to be his friend Collins, and he let him in, after he had his supper they went into the bedroom, they conversed for some time, and they began squabbling later on, and fought with the razor which was lying on the table—he told me they fought for about an hour, and that at one time Collins had him down on the floor on his back and hacked at the left side of his throat, that when the struggle was over he let Collins out by the back door, and then managed to crawl to the bell and rang upstairs.

By MR. WILLIAMS. He had rallied from his faintness when I had this conversation with him—he was still weak from loss of blood—I am quite sure that he told me what is written down—he said that he let him out at the back door.

BENJAMIN BASS (Recalled). I have heard what Mr. Ballance has said—I had no conversation with him whatever, to my recollection; if I did tell him anything I must have been delirious: I have not the slightest idea of telling him anything about it—there is no means of getting into the street but by the area door; there is no back door—I have no recollection of any such conversation—I remember Mr. Ballance attending me—he attended me a second time in the morning, about 6 o'clock I think, I don't know exactly what time it was.

MR. BALLANCE (Recalled). There were no marks of delirium about him when I spoke to him, he had no delirium at all—I say on my oath that this conversation did take place and that I wrote it down afterwards—Mr. Townsend was present on the occasion, but I am not sure that he

heard the conversation; I mentioned it to him, and I mentioned it to several others.

MR. WILLIAMS proposed to ask the surgeon at the hospital whether the prisoner made to him practically the same statement that he had made in his present evidence. MR. JUSTICE STEPHENS considered that this could not be done, it would be going beyond the rule laid down by the Common Law Procedure Act.

MR. BALLANCE (Re-examined). When I had this conversation with Bass he was in bed—he spoke very softly—I told him not to speak loud—I leant over him to hear him—I don't think Mr. Townsend was in the room—I think I said I mentioned the conversion to him outside the door, he was in much too distressed a condition to be in the room, he was very much put out by it and therefore did not come into the room.

MR. TOWNSEND (Re-examined). I did not hear any conversation which took place between Bass and Dr. Ballance, I was not in the room—Mr. Ballance made a statement to me about a conversation.

The prisoner received a good character.

GUILTY on the first count. Twenty Years' Penal Servitude.

THIRD COURT.—Wednesday, November 21st, 1883.

Before Mr. Common serjeant.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-40
VerdictGuilty > with recommendation

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40. ELIZABETH ROWLAND (31) , Forging and uttering a request for the payment of 1l. 3s. 11d. with intent to defraud.

MR. WEDDERBURN Prosecuted; MR. WARBUBTON Defended.

JAMES MARWICK HARWOOD . I am assistant secretary to the Civil Service Co-operative Stores—I remember Mr. Deyarborough coming to the Stores early in this year; I believe he saw his deposit account, I was not present—after he had gone instructions were given to the employes at the Stores—on 6th October, Mr. Pottlington, the assistant superintendent of the stationery department, spoke to me, and I went to that department and saw the prisoner at a desk—I passed her and went into the deposit office, where this deposit slip (produced) was shown to me—I saw her again that day in the blanket room—I went to the cashier, Templeman, who showed me this deposit slip "C"—I afterwards saw her at the flannel counter on the floor below, when the cashier, Burls, showed me this deposit slip "D"—I had previously communicated with Detective Yeoman.

Cross-examined. I have been between six and seven years in the Stores—I have no doubt it is the custom of many people to use the name of one—I have no doubt one ticket is used by a great many—I first saw her at the Stores on that day at 11.30 or 12 o'clock, and she left in the custody of the police about 2 o'clock—she took the goods; they were not sent—we do not pay carriage for goods under a certain amount—I know nothing about the writing.

Re-examined. It is not usual for one person to use many tickets—we should not allow a large number of people all to draw on one deposit account—deposit accounts are quite distinct from tickets, which are simply a sign of membership.

SPENDER CLAY I have a deposit account at the Stores—the prisoner was in my service in 1878 I think—these two deposit slips, I and M, on

1st October, signed in my name, are not in my writing—I have never given the prisoner authority to sign deposit slips in my name—I did not' know that on 1st October she was buying goods at the Stores in my name—I had no deposit account ac the Stores on 1st October, it had been withdrawn.

Cross-examined. I think the prisoner was in my service about a year; during that time she conducted herself well and gave general satisfaction—I had nothing to complain of dishonesty—we had a deposit account at the Stores for a considerable period—I believe several people often use one ticket at the Stores—I have never done it—I don't think my friends ever use my name.

MARY BATESON DEYARBOROUGH . I have a deposit account at the Stores—in July, 1880, the prisoner was in my service for three months in the country—I knew nothing against her during that time—she conducted herself well—neither of these deposit slips B and H are in my writing—H is signed "B.D.," which are my initials; but B is signed "J.D.," which are neither mine or my husband's initials—I have never given the prisoner authority to sign my deposit cheques—I was not aware that she was dealing in my name on October 1st or 6th—I gave her no authority to do so on February 19th or March 8th, 1883.

Cross-examined. During the three months she was with me she gave every satisfaction—I may have lent my ticket to the other servants sometimes, never to my friends nor to the prisoner—I have never let other people go to the Stores using my name—if my servants or anybody had used my name they would pay in cash—I only used the deposit account myself.

Re-examined. I never gave anybody authority to use my deposit account—if my ticket were used by anybody that would have nothing to do with the deposit account.

JAMES MARWICK HARWOOD (Re-examined). The deposit slips are forms in books, exactly like a cheque-book—the counterfoils of these particular deposit slips would be in the possession of Mrs. Devarborough and Mrs. Clay—I don't know where they are; they are not numbered, all deposit slip-books are exactly the same—we only issue them to those that have deposit accounts—I don't know if she produced a ticket at, the time she took the goods.

MARY BATESON DEYARBOROUGH (Re-examined). I received this letter (produced)—I suppose it is in the prisoner's writing; I don't know if it is—I don't remember having seen her write; I must have.

SPENDER CLAY (Re examined). I received this letter (produced); it is in the prisoner's writing—I have not seen her write, but I have received a good many letters from her.

MARY MACKENZIE . I have a deposit account at the Stores—the prisoner was in my employ from the end of 1880 to the middle of 1881, when I dismissed her; up to that time I had found her satisfactory in every way—these two pieces of paper C and D are not in my writing—on October 6 the prisoner had no authority to use my name and address or my deposit account; I did not know she was doing so—none of these five deposit slips are in my writing—the prisoner had no authority to use my name in 1882 and 1883—since this matter has-come up I have received this letter (produced) from her—I believe it is in her writing.

By the JURY. I have sent a signed slip to the Stores by the butler.

Cross-examined. The prisoner was with me about a year—during that time she had a character for honesty—she had a quarrel with the butler, and I declined to give her a character without mentioning it—I have never lent my Store ticket to my friends—I write the orders out for the Stores.

Re-examined. This is a letter my daughter-in-law received from the prisoner. (This stated that as Mrs. Mackenzie declined to give her a character without naming the quarrel with the butler, she was unable to get a situation; that she had worked for a year and a half as a slave at dressmaking; that she had taken in lodgers., but had been left in debt by three of them.) I last saw the prisoner before to-day in 1881, when she left my employment—my deposit account is still standing at the Stores.

EDWARD DOHOO . I am a salesman of the Co-operative Society, in the carpet department—on the morning of October 1st I saw the prisoner in that department—she purchased a table-cover for 12s., and gave the name of Deyarborough—I do not remember if she gave any ticket number; I should ask for it—this is the bill I made out—she then asked to see some blankets, and said if she required them she would come back for them—later in the day she returned; I was serving another customer and handed her over to Kemp—on October 6 she came and purchased lace curtains value 1l. 19s. 9d.; she then gave the name of Mackenzie—I made out this slip E—I don't remember if she gave a number, she gave an address.

Cross-examined. I asked her what the number was; she said she did not know—people frequently do not remember their numbers—I have been in the Stores about sixteen months—I have noticed that many people come under one name—I have noticed people coming in the names of Mrs. Clay and Mrs. Deyarborough—I don't know how long she was at the Stores; I saw her in the morning and again in the afternoon—I don't think I had seen her there before—I did not see the documents signed—the person who owned the account would sign the name—if the person had not brought a slip with him he would send us to the deposit-account room to get one from there—if some one came as an agent they would bring the slip signed—sometimes it is brought signed and sometimes signed in our presence—we do not know who it is signing; we have no means of finding out if it was the agent or the person himself.

Re-examined. Sometimes the deposit slips are given to us to pay to the cashier; otherwise we make out two white slips and give them to the customers, who take them to the cashier's office, get them receipted, bring back one, and we part with the goods—several people sometimes use one name—I cannot tell if one person often uses many names.

GEORGE TEMPLEMAN . I am a cashier in the carpet and table-cover department—on 1st October, towards the evening, the prisoner came—I saw her sign this deposit slip, H, for the bill F, a table-cover in the name of M. Bateson Deyarborough—I remember her coming back on the same day, and signing deposit slip I in the name of Sidney Spender Clay for bill G, 1l. 1l. 6d., blankets purchased of Kemp—she came again on 6th October, and signed this deposit slip C for the bill E, 1l. 19s. 9d., in the name of Mackenzie—the first time she came her arm seemed to shake in writing.

Cross-examined. When the slips are brought we don't identify the

handwriting; we don't care who signs them so long as we think it is all right—different people come using one ticket.

HENRY KEMP . I am a salesman in the carpet department with Dohoo—on 1st October the prisoner came and was handed over to me by Dohoo—she bought two pairs of blankets at 15s. 9d. a pair—the bill was 1l. 11s. 6d.—I wrote at her dictation this bill G in the name of Mrs. Spender Clay—the address and receipt are marked on it—I sent the goods down to the call office.

THOMAS HENRY DEAN . I am a salesman in the chemical and perfumery department of the Stores—on 1st October the prisoner came to my department, I think between 11 and 4—at her dictation I wrote out this slip L, "1st October, Spender Clay, four bottles Allen's hair wash, 14s."

WILLIAM JOB . I am a cashier in the chemical department at the Stores—on 1st October this deposit slip M for bill L in the name of Spender Clay was given by whoever came in payment for the bill.

EDWIN HIGGINS . I am salesman in the electro-plate department—I remember the prisoner coming on 6th October and purchasing plated goods to the amount of 1l. 16s. in the name of Deyarborough—at her dictation I made out this bill, and while I was doing so she went to the cashier's office, and I then spoke to the deposit account clerk, Ansell, and afterwards made a communication to Potlington.

RICHARD WAR . I am a cashier in the electro-plate department—the prisoner came to me on 6th October and signed this deposit slip B for 1l. 16s. in the name of Deyarborough.

JOHN ASHTON . I am a salesman in the flannel department—the prisoner came to me on 6th October and made purchases, and at her dictation I wrote out this slip K for 1l. 3s. 11d. in the name of Mary Mackenzie.

Cross-examined. I have never noticed the prisoner at the Stores before—many people come there using the same name.

RICHARD BURLS . I am a cashier in the drapery department of the Stores—on 6th October the prisoner came to me and signed this deposit slip D for 1l. 3s. 11d. on the deposit account of Mary Mackenzie—deposit slips are not countersigned by the clerk at the Stores when handed in—each customer has a book which contains counterfoils to these cheques—it is exactly like a banker's book in its arrangement—the "B.S." on it means "Bill sent"—I fill in the amount; the customer only signs her name—this was written by me from the customer's slip.

GEORGE URBAN . I am a detective employed at the Civil Service Stores, Haymarket—I remember Harwood speaking to me on 6th October, about 12 o'clock—I afterwards met the prisoner at the doors at 2 o'clock—I said "You have purchased some plated articles at the Stores, I believe?" she said "Yes, I have"—I said "The secretary would like to speak to you respecting the deposit slips you gave if you will kindly, step upstairs;" she said "Yes"—I went with her to the secretary's room—he said "What authority have you to give this deposit slip in the name of Deyarborough?" she said "I live with Mrs. Deyarborough, I am housekeeper"—I said "There have been deposit slips given in by you before, they have related to the account?" she said "Yes, I have purchased things before"—the secretary turned to me, and said "You will have to go to Bateson Dayarborough's and see if that is correct; see

if this woman does live there"—I said "What is your name, please, before I go?" she said "Jane Wilson"—I said "What number is Deyarborough's?" she said "55, Eaton Square"—I said "Are you sure it is 55?" she said "Yes, I think so"—I said "Before I go you had better tell me whether it is true or not, because I shall have to bring somebody up here, and it is only detaining you is it right or is it wrong?" she said "It is wrong; I did live there, I don't live there now"—I said "Where do you live, then?" she said "3, Marylebone Road"—I was directed to fetch a constable, and she was given in custody—I went to the station with them, and was present with' the constable and inspector when she was searched at Vine Street Station—the bag she was carrying was opened; some printed cards were found in it with the address, "Mrs. Rowlands, ladies' certificated nurse, 17, Princes Street"—she said "Yes, that is my name and address, I live there"—I afterwards accompanied the detective to 17, Princes Street.

MICHAEL ABRAHAMS . I arrested the prisoner on 6th October at the Haymarket Stores—on the way to the station she said she did not know she was doing wrong, as Mrs. Mackenzie had told her she could go to the Stores at any time and obtain, what things she wanted by using her name.

Cross-examined. In her bag were found these cards, these slips, and a book of the Archibald Benefit Building society, 13l. 10s. in gold, and some silver.

THOMAS BOWDEN (Detective C). I have searched the house at Princes Street—I have seen the goods this morning, and identify them as the goods mentioned—I have seen the teapot taken from her, four table-spoons, four pairs of curtains, the drapery mentioned in bill D, two pairs of blankets, the table-cover taken from the house, and three bottles of hairwash—I searched the house on 9th October, and. twice after that, and at those different times discovered those articles, and three cloths, a carpet, a cruet-stand, 6 dessert-spoons, 12 forks, four table-covers, 13 towels, and other articles—the washed linen and drapery has no name on, but the unwashed has the name of the Stores on them.

Cross-examined. There was a very large number of things, the sort used in furnishing a house—they were nearly all traced openly in the prisoner's possession—I had the keys of the house; she was in prison—none of the things had been pawned or put out of the way, they were in the house.

THOMAS WILLIAM WELLS . I am a salesman in the electro-plate department of the Stores—I have seen the goods found at the prisoner's house—I identify them as buying come from the Stores, by the private special Stores mark, which all have but the cruet, and that was a new pattern, which was only supplied to us by the manufacturers at that time.

Cross-examined. The cruet never had any particular Store mark on it; it had the manufacturer's mark—everything else was marked with a mark which could only have been been oblitered by filing out.

GUILTY. Strongly recommended to mercy by the Jury on account of her previous good character, and of the loose way in which the business teas conducted. Three months without hard Labour.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-41
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

Related Material

41. ARTHUR ASH and ALFRED WISE (20) , Robbery with violence on Florrie Williams, and stealing 8s. 10d. and a pulse, her property.


FLORRIE WILLIAMS . I lived at 3, Falcon Terrace, Kilburn—I am an unfortunate—on Saturday night, 13th October, about 12 o'clock, I was in the Edgware Road; the two prisoners carne up; Wise said "Will you go for a walk with us?" and I went With them down Oxford Terrace—Wise pushed me down, and when I came to I found I bad been robbed of 8s. 6d. in my purse, and my brooch—the purse was in my right-hand breast-pocket—I was stunned by the fall—when I got up I screamed, and the police came—a quarter of an hour afterwards I was called to the station, where I saw the two prisoners and identified them—they were not placed with others—these are my purse and brooch (produced).

Cross-examined by MR. BLACKWELL. I first saw the prisoners between 12 and half-past—I did not go into a public-house with them—I had been drinking—I swear I did not go into the Crown public-house with them—I did not have Irish whisky with them—I had had some drink in two public-houses in the Edgware-road. with a gentleman that evening—Wise gave me no money—I should say I was unconscious about five or eight minutes—I did not take note while I was unconscious, I did not look at my clock before or after.

Cross-examined by MR. WARBURTON. I knew neither of the prisoners before—Wise proposed I should go for a walk, I thought it a natural thing to do—we went through Cambridge Terrace and about seven or eight doors down Oxford Terrace—it was not particularly light there—there are some lamps there—some people were passing—nothing was said, he suddenly knocked me down—he pushed me, and as I fell I struck on my head—he did not strike my head—I had some drink afterwards with a policeman in a public-house—there was no conversation about prosecuting.

ROBERT BUCK (Policeman D 296). On the night in question I was on a fixed point in Cambridge Terrace—I heard a woman crying "Murder!" and "Police!" in the direction of Oxford Terrace, ran across the road, and saw the two prisoners and the prosecutrix there—she was Dr the ground, and one of the prisoners, I could not say which, was struggling with her, and the other stood looking on—I ran towards them, they ran away; I could not get at them for the fencing—they were stopped in Oxford Square—I said "What have you been doing to that woman?"—they both answered together "Nothing"—I said "If you had done nothing the woman would not scream, and you need not run away"—Wise said "Can't we run if we like?"—I took them to the station, where they saw the prosecutrix—she said "You have stolen my purse"—Wise said "Why I have never seen you, you have made a mistake this time"—they were then charged, and in answer Wise said "If you look in that woman's pocket you will find a two-shilling-piece we gave her; the landlord of the Green Man can prove we were all drinking together"—Constable Bevan pointed out a spot to me in the ornamental gardens on the pavement where he had picked up the brooch—that was quite close to the spot where I had seen them struggling together—he also pointed out another place 160 yards from that, at the corner of Summer Place and Radnor Place, where the purse was found—that is where the prisoner ran past.

Cross-examined by MR. BLACKWELL. I have been in the force five years and six months—I did not know the prosecutrix before—I never had any little conviviality when I drank with her once—I had not been drinking

with her or any other woman on that night—there was a lamp 40 yards away from this place—I made a note of what Wise said the same morning when I got home at 3 o'clock—it is not here—the event took place about 12.30—Wise said "I have never seen you," not "I have never seen it"—I saw him near her and pursued him—he was confronted with her about 20 minutes after the affair took place—the only time I drank with the prosecutrix was on this night—I went to fetch her to see the inspector; it was an hour too early, and I went with her to have a drink and paid for it—that is not my practice—I know where she lives and have been to her lodgings—I was asked to have whisky there; I refused—I do not know Turner that I know of, I might by sight—the prosecutrix told me and I told the Magistrate that she had consented to square the matter if 2l. were given her—I advised her not to take the money, but to come and tell the truth.

Cross-examined by MR. WARBURTON. I was drinking in the public-house with her nine days afterwards, on Monday night, the 29th—there was nobody about on this night; I could not see anybody—it is not a thieves' quarter there—I am quite sure that after some conversation with her she did not say "Oh, I cannot go to that extent; I cannot swear that"—at the station she said "Don't lock use up"—I have seen Wise's father; I did not say to him "If you had only gone to work the right way I could have told you how to get your son out of all this difficulty," nothing of the kind—I am the only person who saw the woman on the ground—I was not on my beat when I took her into the public-house—I was in private clothes making inquiries—I took her in to kill time, as we had to wait an hour to see the inspector—I don't often kill time in that way—I treated her to twopenny worth of whisky—we were in there five or six minutes—she had been in my company then two hours.

BENJAMIN SMITH (Policeman D 295). On Saturday night, 13th October, I was on duty in Gloucester Square about 12.30—I heard scream of "Murder!" and "Police!" and saw the two prisoners running towards me in the direction of Southwick Crescent across the square—Constable 296 was following them—I followed them and took Wise at the bottom of Oxford Square—Constable 296 asked Wise a question; I could not hear what it was—the answer was "Nothing"

Cross-examined by MR. FRITH. I did not go out this night with Constable 296; I went on a heat close by Constable 292—I never gave evidence in any other case with Buck—I did not say to Wise You have been insulting a woman in Oxford Terrace"—I did not hear Buck say it—I did not hear the question; I heard the answer "Nothing"—I did not say before the Magistrate I heard Buck say that—I was called on both occasions—I believe this is my writing—I believe the words were spoken—I had not been having drink—I think Mr. Theobald is here to-day—I don't know if it is contrary to rule for police-constables to treat witnesses for the prosecution—the Laurie Arms is next to the Marylebone Police-station—I never saw a policeman treating a witness there—I have not seen Theobald or Bevan there.

Cross-examined by MR. WARBUBTON. I was present when the prisoners were taken to the station—I did not hear the inspector say there was no evidence, and that the charge should not have been brought—I don't think he said anything to that effect—I have been in the force about four months—I have never treated prosecutrixes to kill the time; I don't

approve of it—I believe Buck used some expression about insulting the woman in Oxford Terrace—I saw Ash searched—I don't believe any thing of the prosecutrix's was found on him.

ARTHUR NICHOLAS (Policeman D 100). On Saturday night, 13th October, about 12.30, I was on duty in the neighbourhood of Oxford Square—I saw the two prisoners running in the direction of the bottom of Oxford Square, and gave chase and took Ash into custody—I said "What are you running for?"—he replied "Nothing"—I searched him at the station and found on him 2d. in bronze—I searched Wise and found 2 1/2 d. in bronze on him—they were sober—the prosecutrix had been drinking; she was not drunk.

Cross-examined by MR. FRITH. I know nothing of what occurred previously—I know her by seeing her in the Edgware Road; she is a prostitute—I have not been drinking with her—I was not present when Buck took her into the Laurie Arms—I heard of it at the Court.

Cross-examined by MR. WARBURTON. I am not aware that she has ever brought a charge against a person before—other people have not brought charges against her—she has not been to our station before—I was present when she said "Don't lock me up"—I was present when the inspector took the charge—he did not use words signifying that the charge was a trumpery thing and that she should not have been brought up—I was close by in the charge-room; he could not have said it without my hearing it—we four policemen went out to search for the purse while the prisoners were left at the station—I searched Ash—I found none of the prosecutrix's property on her—I did not find the brooch—it was very quiet about there then—there were no carriages driving about where the robbery took place, it was very dark—before she said "Don't lock me up," she had been complaining to a constable of being robbed.

JOHN BEVAN (Policeman D 252). At 1.30 a.m. on 14th October I found this brooch lying in the road, in the garden which runs all down Oxford Terrace, and about 5.30 or 6 o'clock I found this purse at the corner of Summer's Place and Radnor Place lying on the ground beside the coping of a house—there was nothing in it—it was open, and lying in such a position that any one passing could see it.

Cross-examined by MR. WARBURTON. I knew nothing of the two men before and I know nothing of them.

WALTER THEOBALD (Police Inspector D). On Sunday morning, 14th October, I was on duty at Molyneux Street Police-station—at about 12.45 the two prisoners were brought in by Buck and Nicholas—I took the charge—Florrie Williams charged them with assaulting her and robbing her of a purse containing 8s. 6d. in Oxford Terrace—there was no mention at that time of the brooch, but a few minutes later Bevan brought it to the station—in answer to the charge, Wise said he knew nothing about it—Ash said "We had been drinking in the Green Man public house, Edgware Road, and walked together down the Edgware Road; I gave the woman a florin to go for a walk with her down Oxford Terrace"—she said "You did nothing of the kind"—she did not deny the walk, only receiving the money.

Cross-examined by MR. FRITH. I have not treated the prosecutrix—I took Mrs. Nelson and Miss Florrie Williams to the Treasury—I did not treat them before we went in—I was present at the police-court when Mrs. Nelson swore I did so—I treated them when we came out—I don't

think Mrs. Nelson is a prostitute; she described herself as a married woman, and so did Miss Williams—I certainly did not say, "If you make a statement up to the point you shall have a drink with me"—I cannot account for Mrs. Nelson having said I treated them before we went in—it is untrue.

Cross-examined by MR. WARBURTON. I did not say it was rather a trumpery case when it was brought to the station, nor that the evidence was weak and insufficient—the prosecutrix has been to the station before and complained of being annoyed by the prisoners—she has not been in trouble at the police-court to my knowledge—she may have been taken up, I think not—she did not say to me "Don't lock me up," nothing of the sort; she was bleeding and very excited, and they sent for a doctor.

THOMAS CHAMBERS KIRBY . I am the Divisional Surgeon of Police at Marylebone—on 14th October I was called to the Molyneux Station and there saw the prosecutrix—she seemed to be suffering from shock—her left hand seemed to be bruised and was a good deal swollen, no permanent injury has been caused—I have not seen her since—I should think she is perfectly right.

Cross-examined by MR. WARBURTON. There was no dislocation of anything and no permanent injury—she did not complain of her head—I did not examine it—she only called attention to her hand and to a general condition of faintness; she appeared as if she had had rather a severe shock—that might have been the result of the fall.

The prisoners received good characters.


19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-42
VerdictNot Guilty > no evidence

Related Material

42. ARTHUR ASH and ALFRED WISE were again indicted for assaulting Florrie Williams.

MR. GOODRICH offered no evidence.


19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-43
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

Related Material

43. WILLIAM SMITH (32) PLEADED GUILTY to feloniously uttering a counterfeit sovereign, having been convicted of a like offence in May, 1880, in the name of Henry Jackson.— Two Years' Hard Labour.

OLD COURT.—Thursday, November 22nd, 1883.

Before Mr. Justice Stephen.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-44
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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44. HENRY FOX (19) was indicted for a rape on Mary Mummery.

MR. POLAND Prosecuted; MR. PURCELL Defended.

MR. PURCELL, for the prisoner, put in a plea of Autrefois Convict. The prisoner had been charged with this offence before the Magistrates at Uxbridge, who, not considering the felony made out, convicted him of an assault and sentenced him to two months' imprisonment. The prisoner appealed to the Quarter Sessions, denying that he was the person who had been sworn to as the man who had assaulted the prosecutrix. The Court of Quarter Sessions, after inquiry, remised the case back to the Magistrates, who ultimately committed the prisoner to this Court on the original charge of rape. MR. POLAND demurred to the plea on several grounds and referred to "Re Thompson, 30 Law Journal. Magistrates' Cases, page 19; and 6 Hurlston and Norman, 193. After hearing MR. PURCELL, MR. JUSTICE STEPHEN was of opinion that the plea could not le sustained, the conviction fir the assault had never been acted upon. Even if that difficulty could be got over, there would be a very grave

question at to whether the conviction of assault would operate as en estoppel of the trial fur rape. That was a question not now to be decided; but the proceedings before the Magistrates had not been thoroughly carried out and sentence executed, and nothing short of that would entitle the prisoner to the defence set up by this plea.

The prisoner was then tried for the rape, and acquitted.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-45
VerdictNot Guilty > no evidence

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45. MARY MORLEY CROSS (25) , Unlawfully taking away George Geary, a child under 14, with intent to deprive the parents of its Possession.

MR. KEITH FRITH, for the Prosecution, offered no evidence.


NEW COURT.—Wednesday November 21st, 1883.

Before Mr. Recorder.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-46
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceMiscellaneous > sureties

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46. FRANK ROGERS PLEADED GUILTY to a libel on Edward Charles Morgan and others.— Discharged on his recognisance to appear for judgment if called upon. And

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-47
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

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47. GEORGE HILL (32) to unlawfully obtaining by false pretences 5s., 12s., 20l., 18l., 18s., and 25s., with intent to defraud.

He received a good character.— Nine Months' Hard Labour. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-48
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceMiscellaneous > sureties

Related Material

48. JOHN WILLIAM HEATH , Unlawfully printing and publishing a libel on Arthur Leader.

MESSRS. BESLEY and GEOGHEGAN Prosecuted; MR. GRAIN Defended.

FREDERICK WILLIAM BULLOCK . I am a compositor, of Coventry—in July this year I was in the prisoner's service—he is a printer at 22, Roman Road—on 25th July he brought me a cutting arm a newspaper, from which I set up this handbill (produced)—this is the first proof—I made two or three alterations by the prisoner's instructions—I inserted this "Arthur Leader and the baby," and underneath it "Why don't you marry the girl, you rat?" but that was taken out by Mr. Heath's directions because he said it would be too warm—these marks on the first proof are Mr. Heath's—this last line "He is a boot manufacturer and a member of the Bethnal Green Board of Guardians" was inserted by I don't know who, as I only set up the type—3,000 were printed; 500 were sent out first and the others were sent home as soon as they were done—the defendant directed me to collect all the spoilt copies together; I did so and gave them to him—he said he should destroy them himself, and if anybody asked me I knew nothing about it.

Cross-examined. I was apprenticed—my master did not bring me twice before the police-court, only once, and the case was dismissed—he did not bring me up again; lie withdrew the summons—I have never been convicted—I was summoned for losing time five years ago and was discharged—I did not ask him to take my date—I swear that this is his writing—I know Wood; he was called by the prosecutor to the police-court, and he is here—I heard his evidence and am prepared to swear that this pencil writing is the defendant's—I know Wood's writing; it is not his—I did not say the prisoner brought any—I do not know Mr. Johnson; I have never seen him—I sent the 3,000 papers by the boy to Mr. Johnson's, a publican at the Angel and Crown public-house—the defendant was at the place while we set up the type—I cannot swear that he helped to set it up—he did no printing of the first part—it was after it had been printed that he asked for all the waste and spoilt

copies to be collected—that was in the evening, after I had given orders for the delivery—it was the spoilt copies which were to be destroyed—I was not to get any copies outside if I could.

Re-examined. The defendant struck out the words "Why don't you marry the girl, you rat?" before any printing was done at all—they were delivered in three parcels—these are my indentures from October, 187✗, to 1882, and I remained in his service about nine months after that—this is his certificate, "Conduct good"—they attacked my character in spite of that—that is countersigned by Wood, a foreman.

JOHN ALFRED NICHOLS . I am a clerk at Rothberry Lane, Hackney—on 6th July, about 4 p.m., I was in the Roman Road and saw Mr. Heath—he asked me if I had seen any of the bills about Mr. Leader; I said "No"—he put his hand in his pocket and gave me one—I saw a man distributing bills about 3 p.m.

Cross-examined. I am clerk to Mr. Wheeler, of 110, Old Ford Road—I am not a friend of Mr. Leader's—I know him; he is in Court—I do not know whether he was called as the prosecutor, as all the witnesses were ordered out of Court—the defendant only gave me one bill out of 20 or 30; I had received one from somebody else—he did not ask me to give him up that bill, he had wanted to collect them in—I had not one in my pocket—I told him I had not seen them—I had given the one I had to Mr. Leader—I told an untruth; I wanted the defendant to give me another—I wanted to get as many as I could, to strengthen Mr. Leader's case—he did not say "Have you seen any of these bills?" nor did I say "Please to give it to me."

Re-examined. Mr. Marchant, the butcher, was present—I have not heard before to-day that the defendant was trying to get these bills.

---- MARCHANT. I am a butcher, of 105, Roman Road—on 6th July, about 4 o'clock, I was in my shop and saw Mr. Heath outside; one or two persons were near him—Nichols is a stranger to me—Heath asked me "Have you seen one of these bills, Marchant?"—I said "No"—he gave me one—I saw "Alfred Leader and the baby" at the top of it and asked for another.

Witnesses for the Defence.

HENRY WILLIAM WOOD . I was the defendant's overseer when young Mr. Heath was there—I took the order for this bill—I was called at Worship Street for the prosecutor—my evidence was taken down, and I signed it—Evans, a lawyer's clerk, gave me the order; it was for 3,000 bills—the price was to be 1l.—he asked me to send them home to 34, Grove Street, Hoxton—I said it was too far—he said "Leave them for me at the Angel and Crown, Hoxton"—these corrections and alterations are in my writing—Mr. Heath was not present during any part of the setting up of the type—he knew nothing of the order before it was executed as far as I know—I had no communication with him about it, and as far as I know he knew nothing about it till 300 had gone off the premises—I remember seeing some waste bills lying about; he asked to have them collected and destroyed.

Cross-examined. Mr. Evans and a gentleman whose name I do not know brought the newspaper—it was a cutting from the Morning Advertiser, and a slip of paper was attached with "Arthur Leader and the baby" on it—I never saw the words "Why don't you marry the girl, you rat?"—they were not struck out; they were not on the paper—Heath composed the top, down to the second paragraph—I did not say "That is too warm"

—when it was complete, the proof which you see here was pulled—I said first "The corrections are in my writing, I believe"—on my oath they were not written by Heath—he did not say that alter the type was set up Heath revised it and corrected it, and Marriott printed it off—I have never said that I should be a witness for the side which gave me most money—I have used the word "portable;" I have said "No portable, no evidence"—these two letters (produced) are in my writing—the first one says" I am very anxious to know when the case is likely to come off, as I require some portable and cannot at present land any"—that was in reference to this case—"portable" means money—I also wrote "No portable no evidence is the motto."

Re-examined. These letters are written to F.W. Bullock—he left the defendant's employment, and on the Monday before he went for hit holiday he went to Mr. Lubenstein's office in Regent Street to give evidence for Leader, and be told me what he should receive for it and what he was to receive per week pending the action—I have no proof of that; his words are as good as mine, man for mad—I wrote this letter, and asked him a direct question for the purpose of obtaining an admission from him to prove that he not only promised, but received that money—a small action was going on in which Mr. Leader was engaged—Mr. Lubenstein, I believe, was the original solicitor, but he thought he could find a better—I knew nothing about what the action was—I received this letter from Bullock, the witness, in answer to my letter.

FREDERICK WILLIAM BULLOCK (Re-examined by MR. GRAIN). This letter is in my writing—it says: "I am glad the chopper has kept up. I think of going in for a chopper myself if I do not get some portable from the leader in the affair." The "leader in the affair" has something to do with Leader and the baby, and I believe "portable" mean's money—I also wrote: "I do not think I ought to write to 'Ajax.'" That is Mr. Heath, he signed himself "Ajax" in his paper. "I have told them to let him have my address if he asks for it." I was not keeping out of the way; I mentioned that I left my address—I was not in want of money, I had plenty—when a man is worried we say it is a chopper—I understood that Leader was worrying Mr. Heath.

By MR. BESLEY. I wrote that letter from Great Grimsby—I was away on my holiday—I got a situation at Coventry—I never gave Wood to understand that I was waiting to be bribed to give evidence.

GUILTY . To enter into hit own recognisances to come up for judgment if called upon.

NEW COURT.—Thursday, November 22nd, 1883.

Before Mr. Recorder.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-49
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

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49. LEOPOLD GOLDSCHMIDT (30) PLEADED GUILTY to removing part of his property after being adjudged a bankrupt, with intent to defraud his creditors.— Eight Months' Hard Labour.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-50
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

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50. JAMES MORLEY (34) , Burglary in the dwelling-house of Alfred Louis Bower, and stealing a pair of candlesticks, a coat, and a pair of boots, his property.

MR. SANDERS Prosecuted.

ALFRED LOUIS BOWER . I am a wine merchant, of 37, Colebrooke Row, Islington—on 18th October, about 1.15 a.m., I returned home, fastened

the street door, and about 4.30 I was awoke by the police, but did not miss anything then—next morning I missed a pair of candlesticks, a Macintosh, and several small things, worth 20l.—these candlesticks (produced) are similar to mine—the ground floor window had been opened—it was closed when I went to bed, to the best of my belief, but I did not examine it—there were marks on the railing and on the window.

FRANCIS SKINNER (Policeman N 472). On 18th October, about 4.30, I was on duty in Colebrooke Row, and saw the door of No. 37 open—I awoke the occupants—the prosecutor came down—the front window was also open; there was no catch on it; it could have been opened from outside—there were no marks on the door.

MICHAEL KEEN (Detective Sergeant F). On 22nd October, about 7.15 p.m., I was in Thornhill Road, Islington, and flaw the prisoner in a public-house—he was very bulky—I had a conversation with him—he went into a urinal, and came out much thinner—I said "You have lost the bulk you had;" he said "What do you mean?"—I rushed into the urinal And found these candlesticks—I took him 80 or 90 yards off, and said "What do you mean by this?" he said "I know nothing about them, you must have put them there yourself."

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. I opened the door of the urinal on account of your having crutches—your leg which is cut off, was longer and more bulky than before.

Prisoner's Defence. I have only one leg, and had a pair of crutches to carry, and I could not conceal a large parcel without being seen.

GUILTY . He then PLEADED GUILTY to a former conviction of burglary at Clerkenwell.— Nine Months' Hard Labour.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-51
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

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51. THOMAS PALMER (42) and JOHN BRIERLEY (46) , Unlawfully obtaining goods by false pretences.


HERBERT NOTTINGHAM . I am clerk to Thompson and Co., druggists' sundries and paint warehouse, Great Eastern Street—in December, 1882, I forwarded to Brierley and Co., in Manchester Road, Oldham, goods amounting to 22l. 2s. 1d., and on 16th December goods amounting to 5l. 3s. 6d.—I sent these two invoices (produced)—the former has never been paid.

Cross-examined by Brierley. Your order contained no references; we applied for them, but never received any.

OWEN THOMAS . I am manager to Samuel Jackson, paint manufacturer, 199, High Street, Borough—we received this letter, dated 4th December, from Brierley and Co., 122, Manchester Street, Oldham: "Sir,—Please send your price-list of mixed paints, varnishes, and wood stains, also six bands, and oblige, &c." On 8th December we received this other letter: "Send us the following, 1/2 cwt. of mixed paint in I lb. tins," and other goods—we sent them with these invoices (produced), but never got the money.

Cross-examined by Brierley. It came to 2l. 6s.—it is customary in the country to mix the paint trade with that of a chemist and druggist.

FREDERICK BAILEY PIKE . I am in the service of Charles Oscar Gridley, of Bishopsgate Avenue—this is one of their price-lists found on Palmer—it is dated June, 1882—I do not know how he got it—it is for isinglass—on 14th June I got this letter: "Gentlemen,—Please send on Monday

56 lb Penang leaf, and oblige Brierley and Co."—I sent it, and asked for a cheque or a reference—we got neither, but we executed the order because we inquired of Messrs. Stubbs's Trade Protection Society, who informed us that the man had been in business 30 years—it came to 7l. 10s.; we have never been paid—we sent the goods believing it was a genuine business—the heading is "Brierley and Co., manufacturing chemists and pale ale brewers, Brunnington, Stockport."

Cross-examined. Brewers use isinglass—561b. is a fair amount for them to order.

WILLIAM M'AULAY GORDON . I am manager to Charles Lambert, trading as Benning and Stocker, cigar makers, Gracechurch Street—I received this letter, dated 23rd June, from Brierley and Co., order for 2 000 cigarettes, 1s. 6d. a hundred, and a quarter of a dozen boxes of cigars—we sent the cigarettes on the 27th, and the cigars on the 28th June, and two invoices, which was 10l. and 36l. 18s.—on 5th July we sent 2,000 Egyptian cigarettes to complete the order—on July 12th we received this order for 50 boxes of British cigars and 10 boxes of Henry Clay cigars, amounting to 46l. 10s.—they gave a bill for these goods dated July 16th—we drew it for one month, but they altered it to two months—before it matured we received another order, which we did not execute—we have never received any money—the order amounted to 103l.—we parted with the goods on the belief that a genuine business was carried on.

Cross-examined by Brierley. You returned us 20l. worth of the goods—we have taken proceedings for the recovery of the debt, but got no fruits of the judgment—we did the business because we referred to Stubbs.

WALTER KNOX . I am clerk to Mr. Jacques, of 2, Fenchurch Street Buildings—we received this letter from Brierley and Co., Stockport: "Dear Sir,—Please send us prices of fresh garden and American roots"—we did so on 14th August, and received another letter from Brierley, asking for more samples, which we sent on 22nd August—we sent goods value 8l. 13s. 7d., and two bales of buck-bean, 4l. 1s. 3d., with these invoices and a letter stating that the order had been executed—we supplied these goods in the belief that a genuine business was carried on—on 26th August I received this letter from Thomas Palmer, 12, Mornington Street, Manchester, asking for specimens of camomile flowers—the old address was scratched out, and the other was on the top—on 28th August I received this letter from Palmer, ordering "five bales according to samples"—we did not execute that order.

JAMES BIGGS . I am a cigar maker, of 159, Commercial Street—I received this letter from Thomas Palmer, of Manchester, August 25th, ordering a box of cigars about 9s. or 9s. 6d.—I answered that and received this letter (Asking for a list, and saying: "Would you care to be represented here? I am in a position to give you undeniable references")—I enclosed some price lists, and on 6th September received this order, enclosing a cheque for 38l. 9s., and an order for goods—that cheque came back from my bankers marked "No account"—it is signed James Thomas Pegler, who I found is a highly respectable grocer of Pontypool—I thought it natural that Palmer should send, one of his customers' cheques—this is my receipt for 28l. 9s.—I wrote this letter asking for an explanation of the cheque being returned, but have had none—I parted with the goods believing that a genuine business was carried on—on August 14th

I received this letter from Brierley and Co.: "Send us samples of British cigars from 7s. to 11s.; quote lowest price"—I replied to that, and then received this letter of August 18th, from Brierley and Co.: "Gentlemen,—Please send us a sample of British cigars such as you can recommend"—we forwarded the samples and the letter—on 20th August we received an order for 100 boxes of cigars, amounting to 40l. or 50l.—we asked for references, and received this letter: "28th August. Gentlemen,—We shall be pleased to give you Manchester references, or you can draw on us at a month"—we declined to execute any more orders unless we had a London reference—we then received a letter stating: "We cannot give London references."

Cross-examined by Palmer. You did not ask us to forward you any goods till we had cleared the cheque.

JOHN THOMAS HAVARD . I am cashier to the Pontypool branch of the London, and Provincial Bank—we have never had any account in the name of J. S. Pegler—this cheque came through the clearing house, and was marked "No account"—it was issued in September, 1878, to Mr. Pascoe, whose account has been closed since 1879.

STANLEY STREET . I am in the service of Walter Colman, a cork broker, of George Street, Tower Hill—we received this letter: "116, Portland Street, Manchester. Gentlemen,—Will you oblige us by sending us specimens of corks, price 10d. to 1s.? J. Brierley and Co."—we forwarded samples by post the same evening, and received this letter, ordering seven bales—we wrote an invoice, and asked for a reference or a cheque, but not receiving either, we did not execute the order.

CHARLES JAMES BUSSEY . I trade as John Bussey and Co., 106, Blackman Street, cork merchants—I received this letter from Brierley and Co., asking for samples and prices, and replied to it—I then received a letter ordering 300 gross—I wrote for a reference, and received the name of G.N. Law, Corn Exchange Chambers, Manchester—I asked for a London reference, but not receiving it, did not execute the order.

Cross-examined by Brierley. Brewers do not buy corks; they do not bottle.

EDWARD WILLIAMS . I am clerk to James Collier, of Commercial Street—on 30th August we received this letter from Brierley and Co., coffee and spice merchants, 116, Portman Street, Manchester, asking for a cocoa list—we sent one, and then received this order for 5 cwt. of chicory—we replied to that, asking for references, but receiving none, did not execute the order.

MARK DUCKER . I trade as M. White and Co., cigar makers, Houndsditch—on September 1st I received this letter from Brierley and Co. (From 116, Portland Street, Manchester, asking for a list of prices of cigars)—I sent it, and on 7th September received this order. (This stated: "I shall remit amount on delivery")—I made inquiries—they were not satisfactory, and I did not send the goods.

EDWARD HENRY PINTO . I am a cigar merchant, of 27, Little Alley Street, Whitechapel—on 2nd September I received this order. (From Brierley and Co., asking for samples of cigars)—I did not reply, because I was going to Manchester two days afterwards—I called at 116, Portland Street, and saw Palmer—he adjourned with me to the Clarence Hotel, and gave me an order for cigars in bond, for cash on receipt of invoice—this is the order; he wrote it out there—it was never executed.

Cross-examined by Palmer. It was distinctly understood that you were buying for cash, and not on credit—credit is not given in the market for job lots, and you agreed to pay cask.

WALTER ROBERT PATTERSON . I am clerk to Russell Morrison and Co., of 2, Fenn Court—I received this letter from Palmer and Co. on 6th June: "Gentlemen,—Will you please favour us with quotations for ess lemon and orange"—I sent them on 7th June, and on the 9th received this order (This was for two cases, and referring to Brierley and Co., Bellington, Stockport)—I wrote to Brierley's, and received this reply, dated 12th June (This stated: "We are doing business with Palmer and Co., and consider them safe people, and trustworthy to the amount you name.")

THOMAS POLLETT . I am an agent, of 54, Grosvenor Street, Manchester—I let an office to the prisoner Brierley at 116, Portman Street, Manchester—I first saw Palmer about the end of July—he said that that was a neighbourhood for aniline dyes, and before August 20th Brierley and Palmer came together—Palmer said that Brierley being a respectable man, and a man of considerable means, would take the premises instead of himself—they came two or three times, and agreed to buy some fixtures—I asked for a reference, and Brierley showed me some papers headed "Brierley and Co., brewers, Bellington"—he signed this agreement in my presence, and paid 2l. 10s. for the fixtures, my receipt for which was found upon him—they went into possession on 25th August, and about the end of September had both gone, and removed the articles they had bought.

Cross-examined by Brierley. I wanted 5l. for the drugs and fixtures, but you drove a very hard bargain—you said you wanted it for the cigar business, but Palmer spoke about the dyes—he said he was going to be in your employment, and I should be better having you than himself.

EDWARD EALY LIFE . I am a printer, of Stockport—I have seen the prisoners together—I printed 140 sheets of billheads for them—I produce a proof—they were together when they ordered it—I have never been paid.

Cross-examined by Palmer. You took part in the order; you described the type you required, and you passed the proof.

Cross-examined by Brierley. 3s. was the whole amount of my bill—the papers were sent by a boy, and were not to be left unless paid for.

CHARLES BUCK (Stockport Borough Police). I have seen the prisoners together almost daily—I took Brierley at 68, Bury Street—he had a private house at Bellington.

Cross-examined by Palmer. I saw you together chiefly at night, in June, July, and August—I do not think you left Stockport in July—Brierley went away a month before you left Stockport—I saw you together in the beginning of August—I will not swear it was not on 21st July I saw you—you left in the beginning of August, and you were there about three months.

Cross-examined by Brierley. I took you on 23rd October in Bury Street, at a respectable chemist's shop—I took away four boxes of cigars.

STEPHEN WHITE (Police Sergeant H). On 17th September I took Palmer at 13, Mornington Street, Manchester—I told him I had a warrant for his apprehension for obtaining a large quantity of cigars from Mr. Biggs, of London; he said "I have nothing to say"—I said "I shall search the house;" he said "You will find nothing here"—I found two

boxes of cigar supplied by Mr. Biggs—I searched Palmer, and found nine pawntickets, two of which related to Mr. Biggs's goods, a quantity of letters, a memorandum, and 4d. in coppers—he said "I must have been a fool to stop here"—he said at the station "You have recovered nearly all the cigars;" I said "No, there is a quantity missing still"—he said "I have sold 12 boxes to a friend of mine; I shall not say who it is, I don't want to get him into trouble"—I went to 116, Portland Street, Manchester, and found that somebody had been trading there as Brierley and Co.—I found in the grate a large correspondence partially destroyed by fire, among which was a letter from Edward Williams, an envelope of Stanley Street, and other papers relating to the charge—I have been to Mornington Street since Palmer's arrest, and found documents in the writing of both prisoners—I received Brierley in custody at Stockport, and received the papers—I found nothing on him—I went to Bury Street, Southport, and found more papers, and at Mornington Street I found this sample of essence of lemon—there was a large quantity of these bill heads at 78, Bury Street.

Cross-examined by Palmer. I was accompanied by another officer—you invited me into the front room—you came to the front door—you had two rooms there.

Cross-examined by Brierley. I went to your shop and to your private house—I went to three of your places—I ransacked your shop—I brought away two or three unpaid accounts—I could not find any paid ones—the more I turned over the more I found you were in difficulty.

JAMES PORTER . I am a pawnbroker, of 79, Downing Street, Manchester—on 8th September Palmer pawned 12 boxes of cigars for 3l.—he produced James Biggs's receipt to me, and I gave him this ticket (produced).

WILLIAM JOSEPH SHELDON . I am manager to William Granton, pawnbroker, of Oxford Street, Manchester—on 23rd September Palmer pawned three boxes of cigars for 2l., and I gave him this ticket (produced).

JOHN FURNELL . I am an auctioneer, of Longsight, near Manchester—Palmer brought me a box of cigars in September, and asked me to sell him 90 boxes, and early in October he brought me six boxes of samples, and left them at my place—I bought them for 3l. 15s.—this is the receipt.

Palmer, in his defence, stated that there was no conspiracy between him and Brierley; that they were entirely separate in business, except when they were at 116, Portland Street, for 10 days; that he was taken in custody on 17th September, and knew nothing about what Brierley did after that; and that he received the cheque from a Liverpool correspondent, and sent it believing it to be genuine.

Brierley, in his defence, stated that he did not see Palmer from 18th June till 22nd August, and that they were not in business together; that he returned 20l. worth of the cigars, and had carried on an honest business for 28 or 29 years.

Brierley received a good character.

GUILTY .— Eighteen Months' Hard Labour each.

THIRD COURT.—Thursday, November 22nd, 1883.

Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-52
VerdictGuilty > with recommendation
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

Related Material

52. AUGUSTUS HARE (25) and JAMES RANDALL (39) , Stealing 200 pieces of iron gutters and 20 galvanised iron pans, the property of Peter McKinlay and others, their masters.


GEORGE TAYLOR . I am a fitter in the employment of Messrs. McKinlay and Co., iron founders, 23, Upper Thames Street—the two prisoners were carmen in the same employment—on Friday night, 12th October, at 6.35, after we came back from tea, I went into the warehouse, and the prisoners were then at the tailboard of the van, which was at the bottom of the gateway—the vans in McKinlay's place back right in from the street; this was backed right in, and the bottom gate leading from the street shut—I went upstairs into my shop, and I heard the sound of gutterings and also pans being put into the van—gutterings are in about 6 feet lengths—I did not see any gutterings in the van—I could not say that it was empty—when we left the place there was no light on the first floor; when we got back and they were standing at the tailboard there was—the gutterings and pans are kept on that first floor—I had been the last to leave the first floor, and I had turned the gas down when I left at tea-time at 6.5—in the ordinary course of business the gratings are brought from the first floor to the ground floor and loaded there—at 6.45 When I was in the shop I saw the two men at the tailboard talking together—I was examined at Guildhall, and said "I saw the two accused loading guttering into the van, and afterwards I heard the guttering go on"—I have not got a very good memory—I heard Hare say as they were going out that he was going round to get some grain for the horses—I watched the van go out; I saw it come home; the doors were opened by one of the prisoners; the other had put the horse in the van again—I did not see that done; I believe Randall closed the doors because he had to back the van of which he was carman in after the other went out—I watched at the top of the lane till 8.55, when Hare came down with the van and put it in the stable—he was driving Randall's horse in his own van—there was nothing in it—I saw him drive round the house to the stable, which is round in Blackfriars—he had to open the doors again; they all had keys; that was the last I saw of him—McKinlay's men knock off work at 6 unless a customer comes in—on this Friday we knocked off at 5.55, but I, Ward, Arnold, and Charley Graves had to come back to work late—Arnold is the one that gives the piecework out—I said something to Arnold with regard to what I saw, and the next morning, Saturday, I informed Mr. John McKinlay, my master.

Cross-examined by MR. MONTAGU WILLIAMS. I was upstairs in the shop close to the van when I saw them loading the van—I heard the guttering going on when I was upstairs, and when I came down I saw them putting the pans in—I could not tell you the lengths—I was downstairs about a dozen yards off when I saw them put guttering in—I am certain I was downstairs—I don't believe I said before the Magistrate that I was in the shop when I saw them load the guttering—the shop is upstairs—it must be my mistake; I was excited; it was the first time I had been in the box—I don't know if that is the only mistake I have made—I am not aware that I, Ward, and Dunbar had anything to do about grates—no complaint has since been brought to my master about them—there was a complaint by our master with regard to I, Ward, and Dunbar about some fronts—I spoke to the governor about them; they said we had fraudulently rubbed the numbers off a quantity of them and charged for them as new—I mentioned that to the governor myself—I did not do

it—I knew something about them and I told the governor—he charged me with it at the police-court.

Cross-examined by MR. BLACKWELL. I heard the loading when I was upstairs as well as downstairs—I did not say a word at the Mansion House about being downstairs—I did not have a little dispute with Randall that night—I was standing at the corner about 7.30 when Charley was trotting Hare's horse up and down; I had come back from tea; I was not laughing—Randall did not swear at me; he swore at all of us and said we ought to be ashamed of ourselves for running a brokenwinded horse up and down, and said the boy would get into trouble for doing it—I did not make a laughingstock of it—it was Hare's horse, the one he drove, the one that was taken out of Randall's van.

Re-examined. When upstairs I heard the guttering, and when downstairs I saw it being loaded—we have to go up and down stairs for material—I was the person who gave information to my master by rubbing the numbers off the grates—I was never blamed for the matter—I was not charged; I gave the information—it is wrong that my master charged with me with doing it—I have been in the trade these eighteen years.

By the COURT. I gave information about rubbing the numbers off against Ward and Charley Graves, the boy, nobody else—I did not give information against Dunbar.

JOHN WARD . I am a fitter in the employment of Messrs. McKinlay, ironfounders, of Upper Thames Street—I returned to the shop on Friday evening, 12th October, about 25 minutes to 7, after the usual hour for breaking off, and went up in the shop—while there we heard a van being loaded in the gateway, which is under cover and the place where they back in—I got up and looked over the wall, and saw the two prisoners carrying the gutters from the first floor and putting them into the van—I saw them shift the horse out of the empty van and put it into the one they were loading with gutters—they then went away with the loaded van—the empty van was put into the place of the one which was half full—about an hour afterwards I met Bandall walking home along Thames Street as I was going home; we said "Good-night" to one another—I had not been on the first floor where these gutters are kept at all that night—I could see into the first floor from where we were—the shop is between two arches—the first floor is a shop on one side and the fitter's shop is another shop on the other side.

Cross-examined by MR. WILLIAMS. I saw George Taylor there in the shop—he is no more my friend than that I work with him—he was close by me when this was going on—I don't know if we saw it together—I have got into a little bit of trouble since about some fronts—I did not rub the marks off; I don't know who said I did—the boy in the shop rubbed them off—I don't know who else they said rubbed them off besides me—I do not know that they said Taylor rubbed the number off, nor Dunbar, nor Arnold; they said Charles, the boy, did—they did not say I did in my presence; I don't know that Taylor said that I did—this is the first time I have heard it—my master gave me a reprimanding about it, and said he had a good mind to lock me up—I had booked them, that was all—I gave six fronts into Mr. John McKinlay as repairs—they ought not

to have been given in as repairs; the boy did it; he is 20 years old, and his name is Graves—we should get the money paid for them amongst us.

By the JURY. I did not speak to either of the prisoners when I saw them loading the van.

Cross-examined by MR. BLACKWELL. Randall had not sworn at me that night for trotting the horse up and down, Charley was doing it—I was not with him—he told George he ought to be ashamed of himself—as you come down from the first floor there is a pair of steps, and you can get on the bench and look over the wall and see everything on the other side—I think I mentioned the bench at the Mansion House—you asked me about it last week.

By the COURT. There are three or four steps leading from the first floor—I saw the prisoners come down the four steps.

Re-examined. This bench is in the shop—by standing on it I could see out of the window, over the wall, and across the place where the van was.

RONALD DUNBAR . I am warehouseman and storekeeper in Messrs. McKinlay's service—the guttering is kept on the first floor over the gateway—it was 6 feet 4 1/2 inches—OG is the section of it—I went over it on Friday, 12th October, between 3 and 4 p.m.—it was in its berth on the floor over the gateway—the berth was very nearly full—I next looked at it on the Saturday morning between 10 and 11 o'clock when I had to serve a customer, and it was then between 100 and 200 lengths short—I went through the stock of galvanised pans on the Saturday morning—40 each of six, eight, and ten gallons came, in on the Friday morning—on the Saturday morning 40 more six and eight gallons came in—there then were only 28 left of the 40 ten gallons that dame in on the Friday.

Cross-examined by MR. WILLIAMS. There were 20 or 25 of us in the employment—they all had access to the place from which I missed some stock—I don't keep a regular stock book—I can look at a berth and tell how many are in it without counting them—any one used to the trade can do so.

Cross-examined by MR. BLACKWELL. I don't recollect sending out any pans on the Saturday morning from our place—I have not been told that they were all seen in our place on the Saturday morning.

Re-examined. 100 or 200 lengths of the guttering would stand eight in a width—if some were moved on the Friday evening there would be about two feet difference in the height on the Saturday morning.

PETER MCKINLAY . I am in partnership with others as McKinlay and Co., of Upper Thames Street, iron founders—on Saturday, 13th October, I received a communication from my brother John, one of my partners, and on the Monday morning I sent for the detective Taylor, and then for Hare to my room—I said to him "I suppose you know what you are sent for"—Taylor said "I am a detective; what have you done with the guttering that you took out on Friday evening?"—Hare said he did not take out any guttering—the detective said why had lie taken out the horse and van, where had he been if he did not take out any guttering—Hare said "I was coming along Thames Street about a quarter past 6 o'clock and met a man who asked me if I would do a job for him; I said 'Yes,' and took my horse and backed the van into the doorway, into the gateway, and

changed horses with Randall"—he said "Why did you change horses with Randall? why take out the horse at all and change horses with Randall?"—Hare said his own horse was broken-winded and Randall had a better horse—Taylor asked him again "Did you do the job? did you remove the goods?"—Hare said "No, I went out and could not find the man; I went along Thames Street and Victoria Street and couldn't find him"—Taylor said "How long were you away, when did you come back?"—he said "About half-past 7 o'clock"—he also asked him when he went out—he said "About a quarter to 7 o'clock"—I took no notes of it—that was all that was said—he was not allowed to leave the room, but went farther up into another portion of the room, and then Randall came in—he was asked, and made a statement, nearly as Hare had made it, that he changed the horses, but if gutterings were put in he had nothing to do with it and knew nothing of it—he was asked "What did you do with yourself in the meantime, did you go and meet Hare?"—he said "No, I went to the stable and cleaned Hare's horse"—he was asked "Did you see Hare again?" he said "Yes, I saw him again about a quarter to 9 o'clock"—"Where"—he said "Up Queen Victoria Street or at the end of a wharf, I am not certain which"—Taylor said "Then Hare did not come back till a quarter to 9?"—he said "Yes"—I and Taylor both asked the questions—he said he waited till he came home—Hare was not sufficiently near to hear what was said—he was asked why he stopped so long, from a quarter to 7 o'clock till then—he said he stopped to clean his own horse—I gave directions that they should both be taken into custody there and then, and charged with stealing the guttering, not the pans—St. Paul's Wharf is very narrow, and vans are backed in this through the gateway and loaded in the warehouse, and put there at night so that they shall not obstruct the street—there is a large opening to let things down from in the first floor—as a rule, if guttering.; were to be loaded they would be let down from the first floor to the ground-floor where the vans were, but if only one or two gutterings were wanted the men would carry them down—the loading of gutterings is a sort of thing which if one hears once he is not likely to forget—any one who heard could tell it—they are pushed over one another and make a peculiar noise—on the other side of the first floor is the fitter's shop—they were two distinct buildings at one time, but there is a large opening 10 feet wide between the two now in the wall that runs up and takes the roof, and there are openings where windows were going to be put in but they have not been—if our men in the fitter's shop stood on a stool they could see through the windows into the first floor—there is a different access to the fitter's shop—the carmen have keys to the small gateway to let themselves in after business hours when they come back with empty vans—they should place the vans in the proper place, return the horses to the stable, and go home—the ordinary hour for breaking off is 6 as near as possible—the gas would be turned off on the first floor unless the fitters had been working, except just enough for the carmen to see—Taylor made no communication to me about the stove-fronts; my attention was drawn to it by my brother, who is not here, but my son is here, to whom the communication was made—no blame has attached to Taylor in connection with that matter.

Cross-examined by MR. WILLIAMS. Charley was blamed for the rubbing—Charley and Ward were paid for more than they had earned, nobody else directly or indirectly.

Cross-examined by MR. BLACKWELL. Randall's is a partially covered van—it might be that if we had great pressure of business the carmen would take goods away after 6 o'clock; I am not aware that they have dope so—our own vans do not leave after 6 o'clock as a rule—I did not hear what Dunbar said—my son sends out the goods, and will be able to answer—I am away before 6 o'clock—the porters would take the things out of stock, and the carmen would be in the vans and receive the things from the porters—two vans can go in the opening—at night they are placed in the opening leading down to St. Paul's Wharf—we have two openings—if it were the case that any pans or gutterings were left in the opening it would be necessary before the van could be put in that such things should be removed.

PETER JAMES MCKINLAY . I assist my father in the business—it is my duty to book all orders out—in the ordinary course of business the carmen only stand in their vans and receive goods; they have nothing to do with bringing them down from one floor to another—there was no order for guttering to be booked out at all given to either of the prisoners or to any other person—Taylor did not make a communication to me about rubbing off some numbers from stoves, nor did I hear it made—I inquired into it-no blame has attached to Taylor in connection with the matter.

Cross-examined by MR. WILLIAMS. Blame attached to Ward and Graves—they attempted to rub the numbers off and defraud us of money by charging for new grates when they were not new—I don't know if they divided the proceeds.

Cross-examined by MR. BLACKWELL. Our own vans are not loaded there after 6 o'clock when we have a pressure of orders—I am not always there at 6 o'clock—all the men have access to where these gutters are kept during business hours—Randall has been eight or nine years in our employment.

JOHN ARNOLD . I am a fitter in Messrs. McKinlay's employment—I was at work on the premises on Friday evening, 12th October—I went back after tea to do some overtime work, and was in the same shop with Taylor and Ward—I heard the gutterings rattle on the first floor, nothing else—I did not bear them rattle again—we knew what they were—I saw a van at the bottom gate; it was Hare's, I believe—Taylor did not say anything to, me with regard to the van.

Cross-examined by MR. BLACKWELL. There was not much light downstairs nor anywhere except in the fitters' shop; the light was low there when we Came back, we turned it down when we went to tea.

Re-examined. It was down in the same condition when we came back from tea—the gas was all alight on the first floor.

HENRY TAYLOR (City Detective). On 15th October, about 10 o'clock, I was called to Mr. McKinlay's room—Hare was called in first—I said, "I am a police-officer; I come to see you respecting some gutterings you took away in your van on Friday night last"—he said, "I took no gutters away."—I said, "You left Hare with your van"—he said, "Yes, I did; I met a man when I was returning from my day's work who asked me if I wanted to earn 2d. to remove some glass; I agreed to do so, and asked Randall to lend me his horse as mine was broken-winded; after putting the horse to I drove to Queen Victoria Street, but could not find the man, so I returned"—I said" What time did you leave here with your van?"—he said, "About a quarter to 7"—I said, "What time did you return?"—he said, "About half-past 7"—I sent for Randall and said to him, "I am a

police officer; I have come to see you respecting gutterings that were taken away on Friday last in Hare's van"—he said, "I know nothing about gutterings being taken away in Hare's van"—I said, "You helped to load them"—he said, "I did not"—they were then given in custody—on the way to the station Randall said, "I don't know where he took the stuff to"—Hare was then in front of me in custody—they were charged at the station by Mr. Peter McKinlay—before I took Randall in custody he said, "I met Hare returning about a quarter to 9 in Queen Victoria Street, and I went to the stables with him"—they were then charged.

Cross-examined by MR. BLACKWELL. Randall said Hare went to remove some goods for a man, and then on the way to the station he said he did not know where he took the stuff to—there had been no talk of guttering in the meantime—the entry to this place is to the left out of St. Paul's Wharf—any one standing in the fitters' shop could see goods leave the building and go out of that entry—that is all they could see—the fitters' shop is just over one side of the entry, into which only one van can back, and St. Paul's Wharf goes straight up at right-angles—I have been in the fitters' shop; a man from the opening there could see into a covered van, but he could not see the van after it went out from that entry.

By the COURT. There is an entry from St. Paul's Wharf into the ware-house.

The prisoners received good characters.

GUILTY. Recommended to mercy by the Jury on account of their characters and long services. MR. MCKLNLAY also recommended Hare to mercy. Twelve Months' Hard Labour each.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-53
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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53. WILLIAM MAUNDER , Feloniously wounding Walter Keeley, with intent to do him grievous bodily harm.

MR. WOODFALL Prosecuted; MR. BEARD Defended.

WALTER KEELEY . I work at the cocoanut fibre factory at Cowley—on Friday, 19th October, I was having my dinner before 1.30—the prisoner came down and began chucking fibre dust over our dinner—the other lads in the place said if he did not leave off we should chuck him out—I swear I did not say that—one of the others pushed against me and I pushed against him and knocked him down, and then he stuck the knife into the thick part of my leg—I have got my trousers here; that is the hole made by the knife—the prisoner fell down on to the fibre-dust heap—I have not got the knife, the prisoner had it—it was a brown-handled penknife—my leg bled when he had done it—I pulled up my trousers and said, "Look what you have done now"—lie said, "Yes, if you say much more I will do it again"—my companions bandaged it up about 10 minutes after—after he had done it he ran upstairs—I did not fall on the ground as well as the prisoner, I did not fall at all—in the evening I was taken to Dr. Ferriss's and it was seen to—I only suffered pain on the Saturday, I do not now—there is a scar.

Cross-examined. This was in no room; it was on the fibre-dust heap; we were having dinner—I only touched the prisoner once before when he got the knife against my throat—I did not strike him then—I struck at him and my hand went over his head; I am a bigger boy than he is; that was just before it was done—I did not push another boy against him; I swear I did not—I did not kick him in the back; I did not

stumble; I did not go down on the ground—the heap is made up of fibre dust; there is no other rubbish there; there were no pieces of iron there; I did not look, but there never are any there—after I was stabbed I stayed there for the afternoon; I had it bound up with cold water and rag and went on with my work—I do not walk lame now; I did two days afterwards—I know a boy named Woodhouse; I had not been illtreating him; we were only playing about—the prisoner was on the ground—he took the knife out of his jacket pocket; it was shut when in his pocket—I caught hold of his wrist once when he put the knife up against my throat—that was first, before he stabbed me and before he was on the ground—he had the knife eating his dinner, and then he shut it up and put it in his pocket—he was not a long way off when he put it against my throat.

Re-examined. I tried to box his ears after he threw dust on our dinner and put the knife to my throat, but I did not—that was after he had put the knife to my throat—I did not attempt to strike him before he put the knife in front of my throat.

By the COURT. He had the knife against my throat like that, and I pushed it away; it was not very far off—there were six or seven others there—I don't know what made him pass the others, and strike over the others as he was lying and strike me—he put the knife to my throat because he was told by one of the others he would be thrown out.

CHARLES FLAXMAN . I work at the cocoa fibre factory with the other boys—I have heard what Keeley has said about the 19th—I was not there when it began; I went home to dinner—when I came I saw Keeley run down the shop after the prisoner; he asked him what he chucked dust over the dinner for—the prisoner had the knife in his hand, and he said "Yes, you touch me; you will have a bit of this"—Keeley went to smack his ear and his hand passed over the prisoner, who fell down—the prisoner got up on his knees and swinging the knife round struck Keeley on the thigh—I saw a little brown-handled penknife in his hand—Keeley put up his trousers leg and said "Look what you have done"—the blood was running down—the prisoner said "Yes, if you say much I will do it again"—the prisoner fell down.

Cross-examined. I am sure Keeley did not touch him—the prisoner fell at the bottom of the dust heap—I saw nothing of the prisoner putting the knife to Keeley's throat—the prisoner was on his knees when he stabbed him—Keeley was then standing up with his hands down and both open, not clenched—I saw both—the prisoner is not a quarrelsome boy that I know of; he is fond of larking, and I am too—I did not hear Keeley say anything about chucking the prisoner out.

ALBERT BUTLER . I am 15 years old—I have heard what Keeley says—I was there when the prisoner came downstairs and threw dust over the dinner—Keeley said nothing to him—I saw him strike at him; he did not hit him; when he struck at him the prisoner fell down and stuck Keeley in the thigh—I saw a knife in his hand—I heard him say "Yes, you touch me; you will have a bit of this"—that was when he was standing up—after Keeley was struck he pulled up his trouser leg and said "Look now what you have done"—he said "Yes, you cay much more and you will have a bit more."

Cross-examined. The prisoner had been having his dinner and using

his knife for it—he was eating a bit of bread when he first came down and had a penknife open—he had finished his dinner when this took place; he shut the knife up and put it in his pocket—that was before keeley aimed the blow at him—when the prisoner fell down, Keeley stood over him and looked at him, and it was after that that he took it out again—I saw nobody pushing the prisoner; if Keeley said they did that would not be true.

By the COURT. I did not hear anybody say "Chuck Maunder out if he throws any more dust"—I was only going up the dust heap as the prisoner was throwing the dust over their dinner.

JOHN SPENCER FERRISS , M.B. I live at St. Andrew's, Uxbridge—I saw Keeley on the afternoon of 19th October—he had a small incised clean cut wound about three-quarters of an inch long on his thigh, only just through the skin, done with a knife or some sharp instrument; I should say not by a piece of iron—he is going on all right.

Cross-examined. It is a clean cut, not a stab—the edges are perfectly clean, not jagged.

Re-examined. If a knife were stuck into the thigh it would have caused such a wound—it was the outside of the thigh—this is the cut in the trousers.

JOHN BOWER (Policeman X 31). The prisoner was summoned for the assault—the Magistrates thought they could not deal with the case, and he was sent up here for trial—when charged at the Court he said "I know nothing about it."

The Prisoner's Statement before the Magistrate. "I am not guilty. I did not strike him with a knife. He fell on some iron the same as I did. I caught hold of his leg and chucked him on the iron. Butler was not there and Flaxman until he was bleeding."


19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-54
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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54. WILLIAM O'NEIL (33) , Stealing a chest of tea, the goods of Walter Drakeford.

MR. BURNIE Prosecuted.

WILLIAM RILEY . I am a warehouseman, at 24, John Street, Clerkenwell—on 12th October, about 6.20 p.m., I was passing along John Street, and saw the prisoner pushing a barrow—there were three men with him, following a van—I followed them till they got to the central avenue of the Metropolitan Meat Market, when the barrow was pushed under the tail of the van, and one of the men, not the prisoner, cut the rope that kept the chest of tea on the van—two of the men took the chest off the van and put it on the barrow—while they were doing so the prisoner was wheeling the barrow—the van kept on going all the time—I followed them—they followed the van about 50 yards through the avenue, and then turned to the right down Long Lane—I spoke to a constable, and saw him go up and stop the prisoner.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. The three men were about a yard from you—I can't swear I saw them speak to you—I know you are the man that passed—I saw your face—I did not say I was six yards from you—the barrow was six yards from the van—if I had not seen your face at all I could be positive you were the man, because I did not lose sight of you till the constable arrested you—if I had called the driver's attention you might have got off, because the sides of the central avenue were lined with meat—I

followed you because the poor carmen in that neighbourhood are constantly being robbed—I had other business to attend to than to come and identify you next morning—I spoke to a constable afterwards, and he said I was wanted to come and give information—the prisoner was not placed with others when I went to pick him out.

Re-examined. I never lost sight of him—I saw Levick stop him.

JOSEPH LEVICK (City Policeman 286). On 12th October, about 6.30, I was in the roadway by the meat and poultry market, and received information from Riley, and went down Charterhouse Street—I saw the prisoner with a barrow, on which was a chest of tea labelled "North Street, Brighton"—I said "Where are you going to?"—he said "To Farringdon Street Station"—I said "Where did you get it from?"—he said "I was standing by the scale-maker's; a man came by with a barrow, and said 'Cocky, do you want a job?' I said 'Yes'"—I took him to the station, and he was then charged with the unlawful possession of the tea—later in the day Allen reported the loss of some tea—I showed him this chest, which he identified as his master's property—the prisoner was then charged.

Cross-examined. You were going to the fish market when I stopped you—I did not see you till you were in Charterhouse Street—I cannot say whether Riley followed to see whether I took you in custody or not—you said you were employed by a man to take it to the Farringden Street Station—I said "Where is the man?"—you said "There he is crossing the road"—I said "I cannot go after him."

JOHN ALLEN . I am a carman in the employ of Walter Drakeford, of Warwick Lane—I was shown a chest of tea by the policeman after the prisoner was taken, and I identified it—I was driving a van—I saw it last about 5.15 at Mrs. Brodie's, in Foresters' Hall Place, Clerkenwell, when I had done unloading there—I stopped to water the horses in Smithfield—some man said something to me, and I found the rope cut and this chest of tea gone—it is worth about 10l.

Cross-examined. I did not see the other three men—I did not see you with the barrow—I don't think I have seen you before.

The Prisoner's Statement before the Magistrate. "I believe it is A made-up affair, because this man who comes and charges me now saw all the proceedings what he says on the night of the 12th October he saw me making; he authorised the constable to take me; he does not come to identify me as the man he saw with the barrow either at the police-station or here the next day. During my remand they bring this man to swear against me to make the evidence effectual."

The prisoner, in a written defence, stated that a man asked him if he wanted a job, and gave him the barrow to take to Farringdon Station; he followed the man who gave him employment into Charterhouse Street, where at the cross road the constable asked him where he was going; he told him he was employed by a man whom he pointed out, but whom the constable would not go after; he was charged at the police-court with unlawful possession, and remanded, and during the remand a man whom he had never seen before said he had seen the two men steal the tea from the cart and put it on the barrow; and he contended that if the man had seen the theft committed he should have called the driver's attention; and that there was no evidence to prove he had seen what he stated he had.

WILLIAM RILEY (Re-examined by the COURT). The other men went away

directly the robbery took place, and when the policeman arrested the prisoner they were 500 yards away.

GUILTY . He then PLEADED GUILTY** to a conviction of felony in May, 1876, at this Court, in the name of Edward Tomlinson. There was another indictment against him for stealing the barrow.— Five Years' Penal Servitude.

OLD COURT.—Friday, November 23rd, and Saturday, 24th, 1883.

Before Mr. Justice Stephen.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-55
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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55. EVASIO ROLLINO (27) , Feloniously setting fire to a dwelling-house, persons being therein. Other Counts, with intent to defraud.


ELI FOWLER (Policeman C 216). On Wednesday morning, 29th August, about five minutes past 3 o'clock, I was on duty in Wardour Street, and noticed smoke issuing from the grating of the basement of No. 17, which is called the Pandora Restaurant—I rang the bell—it was answered in three or four minutes by a man from the second-floor window—I spoke to him, and he came down—before he answered the bell I heard footsteps in the basement—the man then came down and opened the door—I could not swear to the man then; I can now, it was Amerio—I went into the house and into the basement, and in the front kitchen I saw a gas jet in the pipe running along the wall—the pipe had been cut, and the gas was burning from it—it was rather a large flame, the ceiling was burning—the pipe originally ran along the ceiling, but it had been bent down; the flame was playing on the ceiling—the burning gas was about a yard from the gas bracket—I could not see any other fire in the basement, but there was a great deal of smoke there—the first thing I did was to get some cloths, which Amerio handed to me, and I put them round the pipe and put the gas out—I then went upstairs to the entrance, and on looking round I saw flames, or rather a glare, in the back diningroom—I examined that room, and found two pipes burning nearly close to the ceiling, not from the original bracket, but from cuts in the pipe—that had burnt the paper up the wall, but had not set fire to the ceiling—I tried to extinguish those, but was unable to do so—I threw water over them, but was unable to reach them—I then wont up to the first floor, and in an anteroom there I saw another gas-bracket screwed off, and gas lighted there—that had set fire to the paper, and the window frame was burning—I ascended to the second floor and tried to ascertain if persons were in bed—I then tried to ascend to the other floor, but could not—I then went down to the front door, and to the best of my belief I saw the prisoner turning round the corner to go into Gerard Street, which was about 50 yards off—he had his coat on his arm—I did not see any other persons but the prisoner and Amerio—I stayed outside till the firemen arrived—at half-past 8 the same morning I saw the prisoner again at the house—I asked him if he was the person that opened the door to me—I understood him to say yes—I went into the back part of the basement, and found some embers of an extinguished fire in the wine-cellar; it appeared to be composed of straw and wood—it was not on fire then, it had been put out—that fire had burnt through the rafters to the ground floor—it was Amerio who opened the door to me.

Cross-examined. The prisoner spoke to me in broken English—I understood him to say that he was the person who opened the door to me—to the best of my belief it was the prisoner who I saw going towards Gerard Street—I am not prepared to swear that it was not Amerio.

ARTHUR SMITH (Police Sergeant C 24). I was called to the fire at 17, Wardour Street—I got there about 10 minutes past 3 o'clock—I first went up to the first floor—I there found the gas burning from a hole in the pipe at the side of the bracket—that was in a small room at the back of the second floor, the window of which looks on to the staircase; it was closed—I extinguished that fire with some water that I got from a hand-jug in the room—I then went to the ground floor—I saw two distinct lights in the dining-room on the side of the wall, they were burning from the pipe; the paper on the wall was on fire—I did not put that out, I could not get near, the smoke was too strong—I went down into the basement to try and find the meter, and eventually I did find it, and turned off the gas—the smoke was very thick; the gas was full on—I could not see whether the gas was burning in the back part of the cellar—the smoke was so thick I had to get out of the room two or three times before I could turn the gas off.

NEWMAN TURPIN (Police Inspector C). At 7 o'clock on the morning of 29th August I went to 17, Wardour Street—I made an examination of the whole house—I found traces of two fires in the basement—one was in a cupboard called the wine-cellar, at the extreme back of the premises, the shelves of which were burnt—there were a quantity of embers of straw—that fire had apparently killed itself, by the density of the smoke—there was a very much larger fire in the corner of the cellar, and a lot of half-broken straw bottle-covers, and several pieces of wood, apparently parts of shelves burnt down—that fire had gone through into the ground floor behind the wainscoting—the rafters were burnt through, and the flooring on that side was unsafe to tread upon in consequence—on the ground floor immediately above this large fire in the basement there were two gas-brackets; the pipes leading from the ceiling down to those brackets had been cut close to the bracket; the gas having been then lit, the lead pipe had melted close up to the ceiling—the wall was covered with canvas and paper, and that was burnt through—upstairs, in a small room leading from the front to the back rooms, there was a gas-bracket by the side of the window; the pipe there had been cut, and the flames from the gas had burnt about a foot of the window frame—the pipes are here—after I had made the examination, about eight o'clock, the prisoner and Tobia came in together—Constable Fowler spoke to the prisoner first and asked him if he was not the man who opened the door to him—the prisoner said something which I understood to be yes, I am not sure about it—I then asked him where the other man was who had slept in the house, he replied that he did not know—I then asked him to show me where he (the prisoner) had slept; he motioned me to come with him—whatever he said was in very broken English—I followed him upstairs into a room (pointing it out on a model produced)—there was a bed there; it had not been slept on; neither the bed or bedding was in any way disturbed—I pointed that out to him—he said something which I could not understand—he then motioned me to come out of that room, and led me to another one; there was a bed there—I said "That bed has not been slept in"—it had not been slept in, neither bed or bedding

were disturbed—he said that was the room in which he usually slept, but he had not slept there that night, but in the other one; that was what I understood him to say—I found that I could not get on with him at all without an interpreter, so I sent for Constable Boultman, who speaks French, and he interpreted to him in French what I said to him—he made no answer—he was taken into custody—a few days afterwards I went with Mr. Marchaud to 15, Panton Street, and he pointed out to me in a bedroom there a box and a hat-box, and a parcel consisting of a rug, a greatcoat, one or two sticks, and an umbrella—the box was not locked; I searched it, it contained a man's clothing and linen marked E.R.; there were handkerchiefs, shirts, socks, and different things, and a quantity of letters addressed to Evasio Rollino, at different places, one letter addressed Messrs. Rollino and Tobia, 17, Wardour Street, enclosing a cheque for 4l. 7s. 2d., dated August 28th, payable to the order of Rollino and Tobia, both the existing licences of the house, and several old licences—I found a bunch of keys on the prisoner, one fitted the box and one the hat-box, and several keys which fitted different rooms and cupboards in the Pandora—I made a search at Wardour Street to see if any men's clothes were there—I found one or two old articles, one or two shirts, and an old coat and waistcoat; nothing else, except a coat belonging to one of the sailors, which he afterwards claimed and took away—I was present on 11th September, when a statement was made in Inspector Greenham's presence—that was in consequence of a letter I received from the governor of the gaol.

Cross-examined. It was at 7 in the morning, about four hours after the alarm of fire, that I went up and saw the bed—it was in consequence of so imperfectly understanding what the prisoner said that I sent for an interpreter—this matter was under investigation before the Magistrate for some weeks—it was known that Campigni was in Italy—he appeared on the seventh remand, that was six weeks after the prisoner was charged.

Re-examined. I only found one bed in the house that appeared to have been slept on, that was one which the girl pointed out as the one she slept on; no other bed had been touched—the clothing of her bed was all disturbed; I could not say whether any one had been in it or on it; it had evidently been slept on.

WILLIAM LIGNER . I am a provision merchant, of 46, Compton Street, Soho—on the 8th December the leasehold interest of 17, Wardour Street and all the furniture and effects were mortgaged to me by a deed which I produce—they had been mortgaged to me about eight years before that—on 8th December Mr. Caramelli mortgaged these premises and effects to me for 1,200l., which was to be paid by instalments—Caramelli afterwards assigned to Alurto, and Alurto paid some of it to me in instalments—I recognised him as the representative of the original mortgagor—on 8th December I instructed Mr. Sidney Garrett to take an inventory of the goods—on the 5th February, 1883, Tobia became the assignee of the mortgagor—I knew nothing about Lazziere, I believe he came in afterwards as a partner or something—in June one of the instalments which became due was unpaid; I put a man in possession about four weeks after, on the 1st June, 1883—the amount of the instalments was 30l. including the interest—after the man was in possession Tobia came to me, and about a quarter of an hour afterwards the prisoner came, and they paid me by this cheque—the prisoner was rather excited—he spoke broken English, but I understood him—I can

speak French; I am a German—he had the cheque and said, "There is the money"—I said, "Very well, I will give you a letter to withdraw the brokers," which I did, and the two together went away—they came back again; the prisoner was very much excited, and said he would not pay the brokers because the brokers' charge was 1l. 5s.—ultimately they paid the broker, and he went out—about three weeks afterwards the man who had been in possession gave me some information, and I then communicated with my solicitors, Messrs. Dodd and Longstaff, and on the 19th July notice was given that the money must be paid off—I had told the prisoner that I should give that notice if they did not pay regularly—I never authorised the removal of any furniture from the house—I had insured the premises about three months after—the instalments became due in September—this is the policy dated 28th November, 1882, for 1,500l. in the London Insurance Office—on the 19th December in the same year I insured the furniture, plant, china, wine, &c., for 2,000l.—the house was then known as 56, Princes Street—I afterwards had several applications from the office, stating that the money was not paid—I told Tobia three or four times that the premium was not paid, and showed him the notices that I had had—the prisoner was not present at the time—I gave the notice to both of them when they paid the money—I paid the office first, and then they paid me—after the fire I asked for the policies, and he brought them to me.

Cross-examined. I looked upon Tobia as the person to whom I had assigned the mortgage, and I looked to him to pay the premium—the notice for calling in the mortgage we sent by post—I instructed that it should be sent to Tobia—I didn't know the prisoner at the time; I didn't know him till the day they came and paid off the 20l.—I had never seen him before—I believe the cheque they gave me was signed Campigni.

Re-examined. Tobia handed me the cheque—the prisoner complained about the brokers not going out.

ANN MURRAY . I know the Pandora Restaurant—I recollect the fire there—about six weeks before that I was engaged to clean there—I was cleaning there from time to time up to the date of the fire—about a week before that I saw a bed and bedstead removed by some men—I think the prisoner was at the back of the bar at the time—a little time before the fire I found that everything was changed out of its place; I missed many things—the furniture was changed from room to room—the prisoner occupied the second-floor back bedroom—there was another room behind that called the ladies' dressing-room—I didn't see anything but the bed and bedstead go out of the house, but I thought the place got quite bare—I missed the carpet out of the top front room—while I was there I saw the prisoner about the place—he engaged me, and paid me—I considered he was the manager—Mr. Tobia was in the kitchen; he was like head cook—there were two pianos, one on the first-floor and one on the second-floor—I didn't miss either of them; I didn't take the slightest notice; the things got so shifted about I couldn't see.

Cross-examined. I don't know that I said before the Magistrate that I missed a piano, perhaps I did; I know there were two—I didn't see Tobia on the premises when the things were removed—I don't think I said before the Magistrate that he was at work in the place when the furniture disappeared—I have seen him come in of a morning to his work, as I would

to my work—I saw him on the premises from time to time after I had missed the furniture.

SIDNEY GARRETT . I am a licensed appraiser—about November, 1881, I took an inventory of the furniture at 17, Wardour Street for Mr. Ligner—I have not taken an inventory since then; I have levied since—I saw what furniture was there then—I didn't go through the inventory—I went upstairs and in the lower part—I couldn't say that all the furniture was there as when I took the inventory—I went to the house about a fortnight after the fire, and then compared the furniture with my inventory—I produce a list of the articles which I missed—I saw that some of the property had gone about a fortnight before the fire—there was a long settee that went along the room covered with Utrecht velvet—I estimate the value of the things removed at about 35l. or 40l.—in consequence of what I saw I gave information to Mr. Ligner—I saw one of the settees at the private house which they had taken at the corner of Newport Market, and I saw the prisoner delivering it on a barrow—I saw now nothing else actually removed.

Cross-examined. There were three or four tenants after I took the inventory—I levied three times since then, and before also.

CHARLES MARCHAND . I live at 15, Panton Street—the prisoner lodged with me eight or nine months—he was a waiter at the Continental Hotel—when he left me he said he was going into partnership with a friend to take a restaurant in Wardour Street—he asked me if I would take in lodgers for him, and he sent in lodgers from time to time—that was about a month before the fire—I gave him a latch-key in order that the first lodgers might admit themselves—on the day of the fire he returned me the key; the first lodgers had left it on the table—he told me after the lodgers left he should put the rent against the washing bills—the day before the fire he told me that he was going to send me another lodger, and about 2 or half-past on that afternoon a man came to the house with a black box, a hat box, three walking sticks, and an umbrella—he was a gentleman dressed in black, with a billycock hat on—he took possession of the room, and I gave him a street door key—I believe there was a coat and a rug with the things, but I didn't see the rug—that man went away—about half-past 3 next morning a constable came and rang the bell—I cannot say whether there was anybody in the room at that time—somebody came in at 4 o'clock, and slipped into bed, and washed themselves—I couldn't say who it was, but in the morning the washing basin seemed to have been used—I never saw any one in the room—at half-past three on the afternoon of the fire Tobia called and spoke to me—the second day after the fire I went to the station and gave it to Inspector Turpin—the prisoner told me that his mother had sent him 500l., and he had lost very nearly all of that in the restaurant, and he could not keep it on much longer—I should know the man in black if I saw him again—it was not the prisoner.

ERMAN GILDO TOBIA . I live at 17, Wardour Street—I was a partner in that business with Lazziere—I don't remember when it was—I afterwards bought his share—this is the agreement (produced)—I ceased to be his partner—he remained as a waiter for two or three months—before he left, the prisoner came as a partner with me—I went down below as the cook and he took the management of the house—Mr. Campigni introduced him to me—after the prisoner had come, one of the instalments due to Mr. Ligner

fell into arrear—two men were put in possession—after that, I and the prisoner went together to Mr. Ligner and took a cheque with us—Rollino gave me the cheque and told me to go and pay it with that—he didn't tell me where he got it from—Mr. Ligner gave me a letter to give to the brokers—Rollino presented the letter—I don't know how they managed it—the men went away and came back again—Mr. Ligner said he wanted the mortgage paid off—after the men had gone out, Rollino received a notice about the mortgage—he showed it to me—it was a bill similar to this (produced)—Rollino had these cards printed; "Royal Pandora Hotel and Restaurant, 17, Wardour Street, Rollino and Tobia proprietors, from the Continental Hotel"—the business succeeded so so, not bad—Rollino said he hoped the business would succeed as it went on—he asked me if we were insured—I said that Mr. Ligner was insured, and he said that if we were insured fire should be set to the place—I then went downstairs to look after my work—I didn't make any reply, because I was busy downstairs; that was the only time it was mentioned—Mr. Ligner gave me the fire policies—the prisoner has seen them—I have shown them to him, I gave them to him when I went downstairs into the kitchen to look after my business—they have always been in the bar, in the drawer of the counter with the other papers—after the fire I gave the policies back to Mr. Ligner—I took them from the drawer—I don't know where the licences were kept—there were two pianos on the premises, one was on hire, the other one was there when I took possession—Lazziere hired the one, I don't know the name of the person of whom we hired it, I know it was in Oxford Street—I took it to Lisle Street the first time—a girl named Annie Oldway was barmaid at the restaurant—she left the restaurant and went to live with me at Lisle Street—I furnished the whole room there—there was a bed, table, chairs, washstand, looking-glass, and carpet—these were taken from the restaurant—no one gave me permission to take them, because they were things extra in the house, things that I had taken in myself—they were not there when I went there, I bought them—the prisoner was not in the house when they were taken away, he was not yet a partner—they were brought back from Lisle Street after he became partner, and I brought some of them away again to Gerrard Street, where I was living with Oldway—they were not the same things that I had taken to Lisle Street—I took the same piano and carpet and a little sofa, but the room was furnished—the carpet and sofa were not on the premises when I took possession, they were things that I had bought—I don't know whether any other things were taken away after Rollino came to the house—I recollect the velvet settees in the dining-room—Rollino told me to sell them because some new furniture was to be bought—I sold them for 14s.—there were two settees—I did not see any new furniture brought—I went away on the evening of the fire about 9 o'clock—about 10 or 12 days before the fire I recollect smelling some gas; I didn't speak to the prisoner about it—I searched in the kitchen and then I went downstairs and found the place in the cellar—I found there that one of the gaspipes was broken—I hammered it in order to stop the escape and a man came to mend it—Rollino sent for the man—there were three or four plated articles at the restaurant marked "Continental"; they were lent to me for a dinner—there were a few other things marked "Caramelli"—the prisoner acted as manager upstairs and I was cook in the kitchen—Vittoria was the second cook, and there were two boys

in the kitchen whose names I don't know—my sister Innocenza was barmaid and Pellegrino was the waiter—a man named Armenio used to sleep there sometimes as a guest—I saw him there at 8 o'clock on the evening of the fire; he was in the kitchen, I think—I left about half past 8 or 9 o'clock, everything was then in its right place—I did not smell any gas—I went to my room in Gerrard Street—I heard of the fire about half-past 3 o'clock in the morning—I went to the house; I did not stop there, I looked at the house from the outside, and then I fainted on seeing the fire—I did not see the prisoner—I went to my uncle's in Earl's Court, Leicester Square—I went to the house in the morning but did not go in; I first sent my cousins—I went again about 7 o'clock and then went in—the prisoner came to meet me—I asked him if he had come from the Pandora—he said "No"—I asked him where he had been—he said ho did not know—I asked him to go and see the fire, and he came with me—there was no other conversation between us then about the fire—I saw a box taken from the restaurant three or four days before the fire, Rollino took it with one of his friends—I know him by sight. I don't know where he is—nothing else was taken away—I did not speak to the prisoner about the box going away, I thought it was his friend's—after the fire I called and saw Mr. Marchand at 13, Panton Street.

Cross-examined. Campigni is my uncle—before I went to the Pandora I was cook at Gatti's—I took the Pandora from Alurto—I then took Lazziere as a partner—Campigni paid Alurto the purchase money for me—Lazziere went out about five months after he had become a partner—there was no paper drawn up between the prisoner and me—he told me that he had put money into the business—I had to pay off the mortgage—I had a conversation with the prisoner about the mortgage before he became my partner—I don't remember saying before the Magistrate "I had to pay off the mortgage because nothing was written between me and Rollino; I had no conversation with Rollino about the mortgage before he became a partner"—I can't say I did not say so; perhaps I may have said so, but I don't believe I did—I said "The money for the brokers was paid with a cheque of Campini's"—my uncle's chief cook lent me the plates for the dinner—at that time my uncle Campigni was managing the Continental Hotel—I did not find fault with Rollino for sending for the man to mend the pipe—when Rollino said if the place did not answer it must be fired, I answered that we should try and do better; I said nothing else—I went and attended to my business as usual—I did not tell Campigni what Rollino had said—I was surprised when I heard that the premises had been set on fire—I was so horrified when I saw it that I fainted—I did not cross myself; I did not say so before the Magistrate; I said "I did not go into the Pandora as there were policemen and other people about who turned me away"—I remember now that I said "I crossed myself and went to my uncle"—Rollino was not with me when I did that—I saw him in the morning when I left my house; he came to meet me; I did not see him while the fire was going on—I did not see him after I had seen the place on fire at 2 or 3 in the morning—I met him at a quarter-past 7 on my way to the Pandora; I asked him where he had been, and he said he did not know—I did not say anything to him then about the conversation we had had about the place being set on fire if it did not answer—the property I removed to Lisle Street was not the restaurant property, but my own—I said before the

Magistrate that Rollino had given me permission to take them when I took the things to Gerrard Street, but not when I took them to Lisle Street because he was not there—I asked his permission because he was my partner—I sold the red plush settees with his orders, and afterwards I consigned the money to him—no one saw me give it him—it was four or five days previous to the fire when I had permission from him to remove the piano to Gerrard Street—on the night of the fire I went to Gerrard Street about half-past 8 or 9 o'clock—I went to bed with the girl I was living with—I first sat on the sofa a little time and then went to bed—I was awoke about half-past 3—nobody came—my sister came—my girl opened the door to her; the bell was rung—there were several lodgers living in the house; one was an old man in the floor under us—I said before the Magistrate "I opened the door in Gerrard Street when my sister rang the bell; I had then my trousers on, my flannel shirt, and jacket"—I don't know what other persons were in the house that night—I know that Amerio had also taken a room in Gerrard Street that night with another girl—I did not know that Amerio was sleeping at the Pandora while his girl was sleeping in the same house with me and my girl in Gerrard Street—I do not know it now—I said before the Magistrate that Amerio's room was on the same floor as mine—when I went to the Pandora on the night of the fire after seeing my sister I did not go in because I did not feel strong enough; I did not feel well enough to go in; that was the only reason; if I had not been in such a state I would have gone in—I do not know that Amerio came to Gerrard Street after me on the morning of the fire; I don't know whether my girl told me that he had been there after me; I don't remember; I believe not—I don't know whether Amerio's girl had ever slept in Gerrard Street before that night; I did not know her—Campigni lent me 212l. and a half to go into this business—425l. was the whole amount to be paid—Campigni owed me 100l.; my family would have been able to pay him the rest because we have something at home of our own—I did not give him any security for the 212l.; I have never paid any of it—I did not show him the policies of insurance or tell him that I had got them—I did not know where he was at the time of the fire—he has written to me since, two weeks after the fire, but I never replied to his letter—I never communicated to him that the premises had been on fire—when Rollino told me he was going to fire the place I did not believe it; I took it for fun—I never suggested to him to fire the place, nor did he refuse—I never spoke to him about it.

JACQUE LAZZIERE . I am an Italian—I speak English a little—on 5th February this year I became a partner with Tobia in the business of the Pandora—we purchased Alurto's interest—on 9th April I sold my interest to Tobia—I saw nothing taken away but a piano; that was taken by two or three men—after selling my interest to Tobia I remained as a waiter till 18th or 19th June—Rollino came two or three days before I left.

Cross-examined. I was paid 25l. in cash and the rest in bills from Campigni—Tobia paid me the 25l.; that was all I received in cash—for the lawyer's expenses I received 12l. in cash, 7l. in a bill from Tobia, and 5l. 10s. I had to pay for the lawyer—there was 155l. in bills—my share was sold for 180l.—the bill has not been paid—it is due on 1st April, 1884—the place was furnished when I left it—I knew the place was insured—

Tobia knew that very well—Mr. Ligner rather pressed us to insure it, and we did so, me and Tobia.

CHARLES BROCKS . I am in the employ of Mr. Barnard, a builder in Rupert Street—on Monday, 21st August, I went to the Pandora about half-past 4 in the afternoon—I found something wrong in the gaspipe in the beer cellar; it seemed to have been pulled down, and the one I had to repair had been cut through; I could not tell how it had been cut; there was a duster wrapped round it—I don't know who sent for me to do it; word was left at the shop—I saw Rollino at the restaurant and he said he wanted the pipe repaired—nothing more—after I had done it I asked him if there was anything more, and he said "No"—I cut out about four feet of the pipe and put four feet of new pipe in, and made it all right.

By the JURY. I could see from the state of the pipe that it had been cut clean through; both ends were open; it was cut across; it was composition.

EUGENE PELLIGRINO . I am now living in Rupert Street—I was a waiter at the Pandora; I went there about 20th May, and remained until the fire—I did not sleep on the premises—on the night of the fire I left at 20 minutes past 12, leaving Rollino, Innocenza, Tobia, and Amerio in the house—the prisoner and Innocenza were at the door when I left—Amerio was upstairs on the first floor; the last time I saw him was when I finished my business to go out—that was the first time I had seen him that night—when I left the gas was burning in some of the rooms, on the first floor, second floor, the dining-room, and the private room at the back—it was burning in the usual way from the gas burners—up to the time I left I had not seen anything wrong with any of the gas pipes—the place was all right when I left—there was no smell of gas escaping, or anything of the kind—I went home and went to sleep—I heard of the fire next morning from the policeman—about a week before the fire I saw a piano removed by two men—the prisoner was at the door of the house at the time, and Innocenza with him—I did not see any one else—I saw some silver spoons and forks taken away, and some cruets by a boy in the kitchen; I don't know his name—that was about a week before the fire—Rollino was there; he said they were going to have them plated, he did not say where—they were in a small box—that is the lad who took them (Alberlello)—it was about 10 o'clock in the morning—they had no crest or mark on them—they had been in use in the restaurant for the customers—there was an old name on them, I don't know what it was.

LUIGI ALBERLELLO (Interpreted). I was employed as kitchen boy at the Pandora—I recollect receiving some plated articles from Rollino to take to Miss Green in Frith Street, Soho; he went with me; I left them there—I remember once at the Pandora seeing a broken gaspipe and smelling the gas, and Rollino sent me for the gasfitter.

DEBORAH GREEN . I live at 49, Frith Street, Soho—my father carries on business there as a jeweller and silversmith—I know the prisoner—he came to the shop on 24th August with a boy who I do not recollect, and left some things which he said he wanted replated—this is a list of the things—I think they were marked with the initials "C.H."—we had to take those off and put "R.T. and T." for Rollino and Tobia—some of them were replated—we have them still.

INNOCENZA TOBIA (Interpreted). I am the sister of Tobia, who has been

examined—I was barmaid at the Pandora—I slept in the back room, second floor; it looks on to the yard—I saw the prisoner go into the front room on the night of the fire—my brother left at 9 o'clock—Rollino and a sailor, Amerio were left in the house—I saw that the gas was all out before I went to bed—I had a candle—Amerio slept in the front room, third floor—I didn't see him go into the room, but I know that he went there every night—I last saw him at 8 o'clock—I undressed—when I went to bed I had a petticoat on—I always used to have a petticoat on when I went to bed—I got into bed and went to sleep—I was called by my name, and I heard the cry of "Fire, fire!" from Rollino—I told him to save me because I was choked with smoke, and he carried me downstairs—he had on his drawers and nightshirt—I carried my clothes down with me—I then dressed myself and went away with him—he left me at Gerrard Street at my brother's—before I went to bed that night I locked the door and gave the key to Rollino.

Cross-examined. The last time that I saw Amerio was as he was going downstairs to have his meals—I did not see him or any one after the fire when Rollino called me up—I said before the Magistrate that since the fire Amerio has been living in the same house as my brother.

By the JURY. The lock on the street door was a simple lock; there was one key, and the keyhole went through; it was opened inside with one, and outside with another; there were two keys—I don't know who had the other key; that was a key that was used for people who were out at night—I don't know who had that key—no one could get in from the outside when it was locked inside with the big key—there was no bolt or chain—I cannot say whether anybody came into the house after I went to bed.

ETTORA AMERIO . I am a sailor; I was quartermaster of a vessel called the North American—I have known Tobia four or five years—I first saw the prisoner 10 months ago—I have been in London since May last—I took my meals at the Pandora—I paid Tobia 13s. a week for board and lodging—I didn't sleep there always; I used to live in Gerrard Street, but generally slept at the Pandora—on the day of the fire I dined there, and I was there during the evening; I dined about 7 or half-past—I went to bed about 12, in the front room, first floor, facing the street—there was no bed there, only a sofa—that was not my usual room; I slept there because my room was engaged; the prisoner told me so, but didn't tell me what for—I took off my coat, shoes, and waistcoat—I didn't notice anything wrong about the house when I went to bed, as far as I saw it was all right—after I had been to bed I heard the street door bell ringing—I put on my shoes and went upstairs and called Rollino—I then went to the second-floor front room, opened the window, and asked what was the matter—I saw a policeman in the street; he told me to come downstairs, that there was a smoke—I went down, and as I went down I found that there was a smoke in the house—I opened the door and let the police in—the door was locked, and the key was in the lock—when the policeman came in we went down into the basement and there found a quantity of smoke, the gaspipe broke, and the gas burning—I assisted the policeman in putting out the light with some cloths—I saw the prisoner come downstairs in his drawers and shirt—I saw Innocenza; she was dressed with a petticoat—while assisting the police I saw another light in the restaurant; I went and got some water, and assisted in putting out the fire—after that I got my coat and went to

the other lodgings in Gerrard Street, where Tobia lived—I slept there that night—I lent the prisoner 8l. about two or three days before the fire—he asked me for some money to pay something, I don't know what—he gave me this receipt for it; it is in Italian; it is, "I declare that I am the debtor to Mr. Amerio of 8l. loan to me on the 28th of August, and of his having settled the account to me"—I had lent him the 8l., and had also given him my 13s.—until I was called up by the police that night I did not know that anything had been done to the gaspipe—I used to visit some lady in Gerrard Street.

Cross-examined. I was quartermaster of the North America, I am not quartermaster now; she has gone to sea—I am not on any vessel now—the room in which I slept on the sofa was the first floor front—I had slept there before that night on the sofa when there were lodgers in the house—I don't know what o'clock it was when I was awoke—I was covered with my clothes—I put them on the top of my coat and waistcoat—Rollino had told me on other occasions that my room was occupied—it was an understanding that when it was going to be occupied I was to sleep on the sofa, or any place—I was a friend of Tobia—I used sometimes to sleep in Gerrard Street—I never slept in Gerrard Street before the night of the fire—I used to go to a place in York Place—on the night of the fire the girl slept in Gerrard Street, in the same house with Tobia and his girl—she had never slept there before that night—I took the room for her that night—I didn't sleep with her there that night because we had a row that evening—she is not here—at the police-court I was asked her name, and I gave it—the night after the fire I slept in Gerrard Street with her; we had made it up then—I continued to sleep there about three weeks after the fire; I believe Tobia did not—when I left the Pandora I went in that direction—I did not see any police-man, only the one at the door—I always paid the rent to Tobia—I have slept on the sofa in this room about two or three times—they were the three nights immediately before the fire—I have since then slept there—I don't remember whether I said before the Magistrate that I had never slept on the sofa except two nights before the fire and the night of the fire.

By the COURT. I found the street-door locked when I came down, and the key in it—it is not a spring lock, it must be shut with a key—the key must be turned in the lock in order to lock it.

By the JURY. When I was turned out of my own room on these occasions I usually slept in my clothes—I don't take them off—I never slept in any other room except my own room and the room where the sofa was.

THOMAS COLLINGWOOD FENWICK . I am clerk to Messrs. Dodd and Longsolicitors to Mr. Ligner—I received instructions from him, in consestaffe; quence of which I prepared a notice, of which this is a copy, signed by me in behalf of the firm—I served it to 17, Wardour Street—I cannot say whether I saw the prisoner or no; I think it was him; I asked him particularly who he was, and he said "I am Rollino"—I gave him the copy notice—he said "I don't know anything about this"—I said "I advise you to go to some solicitor, who would tell you"—he told me he was joint proprietor with Tobia at 17, Wardour Street.

Cross-examined. I went to serve the notice on Mr. Pletro Caramelli.

LOUIS ISAACS . I am a furniture dealer, of Tottenham Court Road—in June last I lent some furniture to the prisoner to the value of about 50l.—

I produce a list of it—I delivered it to 17, Wardour Street—5l. 10s. in cash was paid down, and the rest was to be paid at 2l. 10s. per month—I cannot say who gave it to me—here are three receipts amounting to 9l.—it was let on the hire system—if the instalments were all paid it belonged to the hirer, otherwise it belonged to me—I have since taken away that furniture from the Pandora.

NEWMAN TURPIN (Re-examined). This receipt and a list of the furniture came out of the prisoner's box.

GEORGE GREENHAM . I am Chief Inspector at Scotland Yard—on 11th September I went with Inspector Turpin to Clerkenwell Prison and saw the prisoner—I understand Italian—the prisoner made a statement to me—I had had a letter requesting my attendance—I translated the prisoner's statement and Turpin took it in writing—the prisoner gave it in Italian, and I translated it there and then, and it was put down in English—this is the statement, the prisoner signed it—I afterwards received a statement which was taken down in Italian by the Italian Consul—this is the translation which I made of the statement which the prisoner made to me, which was not answers to questions, it was his own statement.

JOSEPH GONZAGO . I am the Vice-Consul of the Italian Government—in consequence of a communication from the prisoner I went to Clerkenwell Prison—on 14th September he made a statement to me in Italian—I made notes of it, and when I went home I drew out a full statement from them—I then took the full statement to the prison next day, read it over to the prisoner, and he signed it—this is it (produced)—he quite approved of it—I asked him if he had anything to add or correct, and he said "No"—it was sworn on the Gospels that it was true—I administered the oath to him.

Cross-examined. I do not know Amerio personally—I think he is a seaman, but he has not been on board an Italian vessel for a very long time—I think after this case he went on board a vessel to obtain a berth there—he was never quartermaster—I am not sure that he was not entered on the roll, if he was he was merely entered and discharged—he was not quartermaster on the North America—the steamer North America was bought here, and all its officers came from Italy—he was not any officer on board that steamer at all.

Re-examined. He was employed as a seaman on board that vessel previously—I did not go on board there—she was an Italian vessel, and every seaman belonging to her was an Italian—I saw the ship's articles; he didn't sign them, his name was not down—he didn't go any voyage in her—she was a British vessel sold to an Italian company; the crew and all the officers came from Italy last month, and she sailed for Guinea—at the end of October Amerio went on board her hoping to remain on board, but he did not—I suppose he remained two or three days—I think he was taken there just for his food—I don't think he received any pay.

ETTORA AMERIO (Re-examined). I had nothing to eat, and I went on board the ship and found employment there as quartermaster for two weeks—I received 4l. a month—I received 2l.—I was guarding the door or stores—the officers put me there because I knew a little English—I had been to sea, but I didn't sail in the vessel because I was told to stop here by Inspector Turpin so as to give evidence—my duties were guarding the stores, and the officers put me there because I knew a little English.

By MR. POLAND. I had been to sea before—I did not sail in the vessel because I was told to stay here by Turpin on Friday—I don't know what day of the month it was.

The statements made by the prisoner to the Consul and to Inspector Greenham were put in and read, the substance of them being to attribute the fire to Tobia and Amerio.

LEWIS ISAACS (Re-examined by the COURT). My bill for this furniture was guaranteed by one of these parties signed here—there were to be two—only one is signed—the name of Dompe is on it, which is of one the prisoner's names—I don't know anything of the parties at all—my manager is not here.

ACHELE GATTI . I am proprietor of the Oriental restaurant—I know the prisoner—I don't remember very well when the fire took place at his restaurant—two or three days before the fire I sent five persons to lodge at the Pandora—I don't remember what day they left—I told him they wanted three bedrooms—they left two or three days before the fire took place.

CARLO CAMPIGNI . I was formerly manager at the Continental, where the prisoner was a waiter—Tobia is my nephew—I advanced money in order that he might become a partner in the business of the Pandora; that was with Lazziere in the first instance, and then he bought Lazziere's share, and after that Rollino and Tobia made arrangements that Rollino, who was at the Continental, should come to the Pandora—I consented to that—I did not advance money to Rollino; he became a partner—I did not become security for purchasing furniture—at the time of the fire I was abroad—I never suggested to anybody that this place should be set on fire.

Cross-examined. I knew that Rollino went partner with Tobia—I did not ask him if he had any money in the business—he told me he had put 20l. in it—I first gave 200l. when my nephew became partner with Lazziere—I paid Ligna 200l. for Tobia's share, and further gave a guarantee for 150l. more to Lazziere—I did not give 50l. in cash—400l. was to be paid to Alurto—I have given nothing to Alurto—the payments of the 200l. have been partly to Mr. Ligner, and partly to others; it made 200l. altogether, and then I gave a guarantee for 150l.—Rollino was my waiter at the Continental—I lent some plates and dishes which belonged to the Continental to Tobia; they were not mine to lend—before Rollino joined Tobia he came and told me he was without a situation—I am only a creditor; I have lent the money to them—I do not represent that I lent any money to Rollino—I swear I did not know the place was insured—I never inquired at all, and never knew anything about the insurance—I looked to Tobia for my money—I was on the Continent at the time of the fire, and returned the day before he was in court the first time—Tobia did not write and tell me of the fire, not a word—I am only a creditor in the Pandora, I have no direct interest in its success—I did not go there every day but often—sometimes I was two days without going, and sometimes I went three times in a day—they called me as security for some furniture, but I did not sign—I said before the Magistrate "Rollino asked me to be security for some more furniture and I agreed, but I do not think I signed anything"—I do not know if I signed anything or not; I signed more guarantees, I very often do, that the furniture at the Pandora did not belong to me—I believe it belonged

to Mr. Lazziere—it was a positive fact I never inquired if the place was insured—I have had several hotels myself—I have insured them—I had an hotel called the Privitali—I insured that—it was burnt.

Re-examined. I do not know how that fire was caused—the silver or silver-plated articles lent to Tobia were marked "C.H."—I never authorised Rollino or Tobia to have those letters erased and others put on—I also once lent six dozen knives and forks for a grand supper there from the Continental, which were returned.

By the COURT. I should have expected to have been repaid the 200l. which I advanced to my nephew and the 150l. which I had paid for Lazziere, so that if they had succeeded I would have got my money back.

JACQUE LAZZIERE (Re-examined by MR. MEAD). This (produced) is the agreement which I signed between myself and Tobia when I was bought out.

CARLO CAMPIGNI (Re-examined by MR. WILLIAMS). This is my signature on the other side.

NEWMAN TURPIN (Re-examined by the COURT). The front door of the house was an ordinary door lock, with a spring that would close the door—the turning of the key further shoots the bolt, and then it would be impossible to open the door from the outside without turning the key back again—if the key was in the lock it could not be opened with a key from the outside.

ELI FOWLER (Re-examined). I heard the person inside turn the key in the lock before I was let in.

SIDNEY GARRATT (Re-examined). When I took the inventory the lease was sold for 1,100l.—I should think the things were worth 800l. alone, apart from the house.


NEW COURT.—Friday, November 23rd, 1883.

(For cases tried this day see Essex cases.)

THIRD COURT.—Friday, November 23rd, 1883.

Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-56
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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56. JAMES ARMSTRONG (19) and JOHN SHEEDY , Robbery with violence on Stephen O'Flaherty, and stealing from him 3l., his money.

MR. BURNIE Prosecuted; MR. PURCELL defended Sheedy.

PHILIP PARDY (Policeman E 97). About 1.30 on Wednesday, 10th October, I was in Drury Lane, and saw Mr. O'Flaherty with six lads round him—the prisoners are two of them—Armstrong put his fist up, and knocked O'Flaherty down—I saw Sheedy rifling the prosecutor's coat pockets—I could swear his hand was in his pocket, and he had hold of the tail of his coat—I went after Armstrong—he ran into a lodging house close by—I followed him, and told him I should take him in custody for assaulting and robbing a man outside—he made no reply—I took him to the station—Sheedy and the others got away—about 11.15 p.m. on 12th October I was in Drury Lane, and saw Sheedy at the top of Shelton Street—I said "I shall take you in custody for being concerned with another man in custody

in assaulting and robbing a man on the morning of the 10th"—he made no reply—I have seen Sheedy several times before—I am sure he is the man whom I saw at the prosecutor's pocket—Armstrong was searched at the station, and one shilling and 1s. 1 1/2 d. in bronze was found on him.

Cross-examined by MR. PURCELL. I saw O'Flaherty at the top of Queen Street, about 30 yards from where I saw the prosecutor robbed—I was then alone on the opposite side of the road—he was followed by six lads—I had an opportunity of counting and seeing who they were—I watched—I can't say he was robbed at the time the prisoners were under my observation—O'Flaherty was drunk—I had no opportunity of interfering—the six lads were still with him when O'Flaherty was knocked down, surrounding him—I was exactly opposite at that time, and when I saw O'Flaherty down I came to him—I saw Sheedy rifling his pockets—I cannot swear I saw his hand in his pocket; he had got the coat-tail pocket in his hand—O'Flaherty was just getting up—Sheedy was standing up—I don't know if he was standing straight up—his face was not turned towards me—four or five others were near him—O'Flaherty was pushed down instantly, and they were off—Sheedy might have been stooping; before the Magistrate I described Sheedy as stooping over the prosecutor, with his back towards me—I know Sheedy has worked for Mr. Isaacs at his fish shop in Drury Lane—Mr. Isaacs came to be his bail, and give him a character—I was on duty that night—I had not seen Sheedy lately at the fish is—I had not that night—I have seen him about the shop several times—I apprehended him on 11th October—he was tried at Bow Street on the 12th—I made a mistake when I told the Magistrate it was on the 12th I had seen Sheedy in Drury Lane—Wednesday was the robbery, and Friday I apprehended him—I was in Drury Lane on the Thursday—I did not see Sheedy there then—I arrested him the first time I saw him, and as soon as I saw him—he has not been working at Isaacs's for the last six or seven months—I did not go there to make inquiries on the Thursday morning—I found out during the remand that he had not been there for six or seven months—I did not know when I gave evidence, that Sheedy might not have been at work there the next morning—from the prisoner's statement, I went to find where he had been working—I am positive he is the man—no one came near till Armstrong had run into the lodging-house.

Re-examined. I did not see Sheedy's face when he was stooping down, I had seen it previously at the top of Queen Street—I had seen him at Isaacs's twelve months before, but I had seen him hanging about Drury Lane day and night, and had to speak to him—I am certain the words I have stated were the words I used to Sheedy when I took him—I did not make a note of them—I did not say he would have to come to the station—he did not ask "What for?"—I did not say "You will know when you get to the station"—he made no reply to the inspector who took the charge—he did not say he knew nothing about it till he got before the Magistrate—the other boys all ran away.

STEPHEN O'FLAHERTY . I am a clerk, and live at 4, Ludgate Circus Buildings—on the evening of 10th October I was drunk, and do not remember what took place, but I lost 3l. from different pockets, some was in the fly pocket of my coat.

Cross-examined by Armstrong. I was locked up all night for being drunk

—I don't know where I lost my money—I don't know if I was in Drury Lane.

PHILIP PARDY (Re-examined by the COURT). O'Flaherty was charged with being drunk and incapable—another constable took him.

Armstrong in his defence stated that he was standing talking to some others outside a door, when the policeman came up with a gentleman, and said "Is that one?" the gentleman said "Yes" and the constable took him to the station, where there was another gentleman drunk, but without any dirt on him.

(Sheedy received a good character.)


19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-57
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

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57. CATHERINE DONALD (40) and MARY ANN SMITH (48) , Stealing a watch and chain from the person of Thomas Strickland.

MR. BURNIE Prosecuted; MR. GRIFFITHS defended Smith.

FREDERICK WADE (City Policeman 344). About 12.30 on the morning of 26th October I was in Fleet Lane, near the Old Bailey—I saw Strickland the worse for drink, standing in a doorway—the two prisoners went towards him, and stood in front of him—I called Funnell's attention—he took up the case, and I lost sight of them for a time—shortly afterwards Funnell said something to me, and I went after the two prisoners—they were going together down Ludgate Hill—I stopped them at the corner of Bride Lane, took Smith, and called another constable to take Donald, and as he did so I saw her slip her arm through some railings—I called his attention, and he pulled her arm back, and this watch and chain (produced) dropped on the pavement from her hand—a bystander picked it up and handed it to me—I took them to the station—they were charged with stealing the watch—neither of them said anything—I asked their names and addresses—Donald said "I refuse it"—Smith said "I will not give it."

Cross-examined by Donald. You came from the Old Bailey side—I did not see you coming out of a public-house.

Cross-examined by MR. GRIFFITHS. When I first saw the prosecutor he was by himself at the corner of Fleet Lane, coming from Newgate Street way—I don't think I said before the Magistrate that the prisoners went towards him and stood in front of him—there were a few people going that way, and it is not unusual for unfortunate women to be walking together at that time.

By the COURT. The prosecutor was leaning against the wall the street opposite the Sessions House when the prisoners went in front of him—several persons were going by—it was just closing time.

FREDERIC FUNNELL (City Policeman 110). On the morning of 26th October, about 12.30, I was on special duty in the Old Bailey—in consequence of what Wade said to me I watched the two prisoners and Strickland, who was standing against the wall opposite the Sessions House—the two prisoners went up to him; Donald unbuttoned his waistcoat and took his watch from his left-hand side pocket; Smith stood on the kerb looking right and left, apparently as if on the look-out, within half a yard—I was standing in the gateway leading to the Court yard—after Donald took the watch they both hurried away towards Ludgate Hill—I went back and communicated with Ward.

Cross-examined by Donald. I let you go because I was unable to leave.

Cross-examined by MR. GRIFFITHS. Bride Lane is in Bridge Street, Black friars—there were very few people passing.

THOMAS STRICKLAND . I live at 16, High Street, Newport Pagnell, and am a fitter—on Thursday, 26th October, I was the worse for drink—I remember being taken to the station—this is my watch—I don't remember how I lost it.

Cross-examined by Donald, I don't recollect treating you at the King Lud to a quartern of gin—I don't believe I gave you this watch, saying I lived a long way off.

Cross-examined by MR. GRIFFITHS. I don't remember anything about it—I was in a good many public-houses that day.

Donald, in her defence, stated that the prosecutor was drunk, and treated her, and when they came outside said he had no money, and gave her the watch; that site met Smith and went to have a glass with her, when the policeman took them with the watch in her hand, and that she was going back to take care of the prosecutor, as he was very drunk.

GUILTY . DONALD then PLEADED GUILTY** to a conviction of felony in July, 1873, in the name of Mary Ann Harris, and SMITH** to a conviction of felony in July, 1867, in the name of Mary Ann Murray.— Eighteen Months' Hard Labour each.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-58
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceNo Punishment > sentence respited

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58. TIMOTHY JEFFREY (46) , Assaulting Hannah Sargood with intent to ravish her. Second Count, indecently assaulting her.

MR. PELLEW Prosecuted; MR. TICKELL Defended.

GUILTY on the second Count.—Judgment respited.

NEW COURT.—Saturday, November 24th 1883.

Before Mr. Recorder.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-59
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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59. ALFRED BARRON NORTH , Feloniously forging and uttering an order for the payment of money, with intent to defraud.

MR. FOREST FULTON Prosecuted; MR. PURCELL Defended.

ALFRED ROBERT GIBBONS . I am a publisher, of 172, Strand—I entered into an agreement with Mr. Harris, the lessee of Drury Lane Theatre, to supply him with printed playbills in return for inserting whatever advertisements I liked on them—the prisoner was in my employ as a canvasser some time since—this is a genuine programme of the theatre—there has never been any advertisement of Messrs. Epps's cocoa on it—this bill is not sold outside the theatre, being given away inside—this signature, "J.W. Fleming," is the prisoner's writing decidedly.

Cross-examined. If bills were sold outside in August last it was without my knowledge—it was I think in August that I acquired the right to print them; it was during the play of "Freedom."

JAMES WOODLEY . I manage the advertising department of Messrs. Epps and Co., cocoa manufacturers—about September 13th the prisoner called and showed me a copy of the programme with our advertisement on it, and he was paid 4l.—he came again on 19th October and saw me, but in the mean time I had sent to Drury Lane and saw the programme, and that our advertisement was not inserted—I gave him a slip of paper to write out the account, and told him we had not had a programme for the four weeks, and

we could not pay him till we had, and on 20th October he brought us this programme with this letter purporting to be signed by Mr. Fleming: "The enclosed is the programme used in this theatre"—the four weeks charged in it were the four weeks of "Freedom," but that programme was for "The Sailor and his Lass," so I did not pay him—he then brought a green programme, in which the advertisement appeared.

JOHN SIMPSON FLEMING . I am secretary to John Augustus Harris at Drury Lane Theatre—this is one of the printed memorandum forms in use at the theatre by the officials, for making any communications—this document is not my writing, nor do I know whose it is—this other is the genuine programme in use at the theatre. (This did not contain the advertisement,) I know North by sight—he came to the theatre about October 9th.

Re-examined. It was never North's duty to collect advertisements for Drury Lane—the programme was under the control of the refreshment people before my time, but he was not employed by them to my knowledge—they were sold up to 25th August, after which they were distributed free—no complaints were made after that that unauthorised programmes were distributed outside.

Re-examined. Dodsworth has had nothing to do with it for a long time.

JAMES EPPS . I live at 61, Holland Street, Blackfriars—I have known the prisoner a year or two—on 9th August he called and solicited an advertisement for the Drury Lane programme—I gave him an order; it was to appear on the front page, "Epps's grateful, comforting cocoa"—he came again on 13th September and I paid him 4l.

ALFRED MALLETT . I am a printer, of 70, Wardour Street—on 19th October the prisoner called on me and asked me to print the line "Epps's Cocoa" on the top of the Drury Lane programme, and said that he was entering into negotiations with Mr. Harris for that advertisement to appear on it, and had his authority and was going to take it and show it to him—I only printed that one as a proof—I have seen him write—this "W.J. Fleming" is not like his usual writing.

AUGUSTUS HARRIS . I am the lessee of Drury Lane Theatre—I did not give the prisoner authority to go to Mr. Woodley's for the purpose of having a proof printed of Epps's Cocoa—I had parted with all rights to Mr. Gibbons in return for the free distribution of the programmes.

ARTHUR GREEN (Policeman V 372). On 27th October I took the prisoner at 172, Strand—when the prisoner was charged at the station with forgery he said he did not think what he had done amounted to forgery. (MR. PURCELL contended that the document was not an authority for the payment of money. The RECORDER inclined to the same opinion, he would not stop the case, but would reserve the point if necessary, upon which MR. FULTON withdrew from the case.)


19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-60
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

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60. ALFRED BARRON NORTH was again indicted for unlawfully obtaining money from James Epps by false pretences.


ALFRED ROBERT GIBBONS repeated his former evidence.

Cross-examined. I know of no programmes being sold in the street after these were given away free; they used to be before—I employed the prisoner as a canvasser some time ago—I do not know that he started a rival programme.

AUGUSTUS HARRIS and JAMES WOODLEY repeated their former evidence.

GUILTY .— Two Months' Hard Labour.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-61
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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61. JOHN ENGLISH (22) and KATE NAYLOR (25) , Robbery with violence on Michael Falvey, and stealing 8l., his money.

MR. GEOGHEGAN Prosecuted.

MICHAEL FALVEY . I live at 19, Lee Street, Burton Crescent—English is my nephew—on 6th August I gave his mother in custody for stealing a sovereign—I afterwards met him and Naylor outside the police-station, Hunter Street—he said "Did you lock my mother up?"—I said "Yes"—he said "Did the female prisoner give you 10s.?"—I said "Yes"—he said "I have a good notion to pass my finger down your eye"—I said "I am an old man now; you could not have done it once, but you can do it now"—he followed me down the street, came behind me, and threw me out into the middle of the street, and Naylor came up and took 3l. out of my coat pocket—she is no relation or connection of mine—she ran away—I did not see her for ten weeks, and I then gave her in custody—that was on October 21st—it is not true that the prisoners and I had been drinking together—I never saw them after pressing the charge.

Cross-examined by English. Your mother and I had not been drinking together all day—I believe Naylor cohabits with you.

Cross-examined by Naylor. I did not treat you to whisky when you came out of the station—we did not then meet English and go to the Drapers' Arms—I did not say that if I was a young man I would give him a good hiding, nor did he tell the inspector that he had found the sovereign for which I had locked his mother up.

Re-examined. Naylor went to the police-station with me; that was before I was robbed.

CHARLES CLARKE (Policeman E 218). On 20th October from information I received I went to 4, Elizabeth Place, Somers Town, and found the prisoners there—I told English I wanted him—he said "All right, I will come with you"—I did not tell them what it was for—they were charged at the station with stealing 3l. from Michael Falvey—they did not deny it, but English said he would make him suffer for it, and Naylor said that Falvey was a scoundrel.

The Prisoners' Statements before the Magistrate. English says: "I said Do you believe I meant to rob my uncle Falvey?' He said 'No.' We drank together afterwards. I am innocent. We had a few words, and I did hit him. I did not mean to rob him." Naylor says: "I did not take it. I was drinking with him three hours."

Witness for the Defence.

BRIDGET ENGLISH . I am the prisoner's mother—on 6th August the prosecutor locked me up for stealing a sovereign—Naylor was there—when I first met my brother he was the worse for drink and fighting—that was before I was taken to the station, and I took his watch and chain away because I was afraid he would lose them—we had been to several public-houses, and he went home to get more money—he seemed to be mad; he was throwing his money down and treating people—he said "I will go home and get a sovereign"—he brought out some more money—he had been drinking whisky all day, and he was quite drunk when he locked me up—he said that money was no object to him, he had

plenty—he afterwards charged me with stealing his money, and I had a month.

Cross-examined. He only took a sovereign out with him, but he had some silver—he might have had three sovereigns—he lives with me at 2, Prospect Terrace—my son does not live at Elizabeth Place, but Naylor's mother lived there, and he just went there—my son was stopping with me on 20th October—Falvey lived in Dean Street, seven or eight minutes' walk from me—he did not call on my son before 20th October—I have lived there since March.


19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-62
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

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62. JAMES ELTON (29) , Robbery with violence on Charles Griffiths, and stealing a watch, his property.

MR. PURCELL Prosecuted; MR. WARBURTON Defended.

CHARLES GRIFFITHS . I am a pig dealer, of Alferton, Sudbury—on 8th November I went to the Metropolitan Music Hall—I left at 11.30 with Mr. Tame—we were in Chapel Street, Edgware Road, some men followed us, and the prisoner went by me with main force, and turned round and butted me in the chest and caught my watch out of my pocket—I held the chain and took hold of his collar—he gave my watch to his friend who was by his side with his right hand and then hit me on the side of the head with his left and again in the chest, and his mate behind gave me a blow on the back of my head which felled me, but I stuck to the prisoner and never let go of him—the policeman had great difficulty in getting him out of my clutches—some of his pals told me to let go.

Cross-examined. I had had two pints—the bow of the watch was not broken, but the swivel broke with the tug—I have never seen the watch since—there were three other men—I had only been in two public-houses—I was not a little bit excited—I had no dispute with him that evening—I never saw him before.

GEORGE TAME . I am a labourer, of Sudbury—I was with Mr. Griffiths—the prisoner ran past, and then turned round and butted him, seized his chain, and threw us down into the gutter—we held him till a constable came.

Cross-examined. I had had a pint of ale; I was quite sober—I do not know the prisoner by sight—I had a parcel under my left arm, which I afterwards found in the gutter—Mr. Griffiths had had a little drop to drink.

CHARLES HALL . I am a cab driver—on 8th November, about 11.45 p.m., I was at the corner of Chapel Street, and saw the prosecutor and his friend come from the Edgware Road—two men who were coming from the station forced themselves against them, and the prosecutor caught the prisoner by the throat, and they all went down together—at that moment a constable sprang upon him—the constable told Griffiths to leave go of the prisoner; he said "No, I have got him tight."

Cross-examined. I did not see Griffiths strike the prisoner—I was on the spot 10 minutes before it commenced—I only saw two men.

DANIEL COOK (Policeman D 70). On 8th November, about 11.45, I was in Chapel Street—I saw a scuffle, and found Griffiths holding the prisoner by the throat—he said he had stolen his watch; the prisoner said "Policeman, it is only a fight"—Griffiths said "No, he has tried to rob me"—I found Griffiths's scarf-ring and knife on the ground.

GUILTY . He then PLEADED GUILTY** to a conviction at Clerkenwell in

May, 1880, of obtaining money by false pretences.— Nine Months' Hard labour.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-63
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

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63. SARAH REBECCA CHETWYND (33) , Unlawfully obtaining board and lodging value 57l. and a dress value 5l. 5s. by false pretences.


WILBERFORCE TROTMAN . I trade as the Ladies' Dressmaking Association at 4, Camden Road—previous to last April I knew the prisoner as a customer, as Mrs. Chetwynd, and about March or the beginning of April she came and wanted a silk dress made to order—I asked her for the customary deposit: she said that she had never given it before and should not give it now; she was the wife of Sir George Chetwynd, and was seeking a divorce, and her matters would be settled directly—the dress was to be 5l. 5s. or 5l. 10s., and the understanding was that it was to be paid for on delivery—on the Saturday on which it was to be ready I received this letter from her. (This was signed "S.R. Chetwynd" stating that she should not be able to pay for her dress for a few days, as she had been robbed of her purse containing 10l., but requesting that it might be sent, and she would call at the beginning of the week.) In consequence of that my wife took the dress home—when I sent the order without a deposit I believed that she was Sir George Chetwynd's wife, or I would not have parted with the dress.

Cross-examined. That was not my first transaction with her—I do not know how the bill was addressed—I had asked for a deposit on two previous occasions—I sued her in the County Court as Sarah Rebecca Chetwynd; I did not put Mr. or Mrs.—I most certainly believed she was Lady Chetwynd when I did that—her name appeared in my books as Mrs. Chetwynd; the name was put down before I knew her as Lady Chetwynd—I asked her for the deposit, and then she said she was Lady Chetwynd and would not give it, and I did not press it because the arrangement was that we were to be paid on delivery, as every transaction has to be—I did not agree to give her credit, but I did so afterwards because there was no alternative—when the dress was made I let it go—I thought the money would come from her—I had had no communication with Sir George, and I looked to the prisoner as my creditor—I believed that preliminary divorce proceedings had been taken—in my previous transactions with her I accepted some furniture in lieu of the account, and paid her a few shillings over—she was living at Purfield House, Highgate—she led me to understand that she was lady superintendent there or some high-class nurse—four or five months after that this trumpery case arose—judgment went by default in the County Court, and I signed judgment against her—I believed she was Lady Chetwynd till I read the account in the paper, and then I went to the Court and recognised her.

EMMA TROTMAN . I am the wife of the last witness, and manage the business—I delivered this dress, price 5l. 10s., to the prisoner.

Cross-examined. I took a copy of the invoice with the dress—I had not known the prisoner as Mrs. Chetwynd till the last transaction in March—the agreement then was that the dress was to be paid for on delivery—I saw her when she took it home—she had written to us the

day before to say that she could not pay for it on delivery, and we trusted her—she was very pleased with it, but said that she was sorry she could not try it on as she was going to the theatre, and she would call and pay for it at the beginning of the week—she did not do so—I left it because she promised to call.

Re-examined. I believed that she was Lady Chetwynd—she was entered as Mrs. Chetwynd in our book up to the last transaction, and the bill was made out from the book.

WILLIAM JEFFREY . I keep a lodging-house in Henrietta Street, Cavendish Square—on 15th September the prisoner came and gave her name E.J. Chetwynd—she engaged a room and asked me to board her, and said that she came from Brighton to see her legal and medical advisers—I boarded her for three or four days—I told her it was the custom to have references, and she mentioned Dr. Forbes Winslow, Dr. Tibbetts, and her brother-in-law, Sir George Chetwynd, 5A, Cork Street—as it was only for a short time, and as the names were very good, I did not refer to them—after she had been in the house a week I sent in my account, amounting to about 2l.; she said that her solicitor, Mr. Van Tromp, was out of town, and she would pay it as soon as he returned—I believed that Sir George Chetwynd was her brother-in-law—another week passed, and I delivered her another account; she said that her solicitor was out of town, and she would settle it directly he came back, and I was not to trouble about the money—I said that she had better leave unless she could pay it—she said "I have an income of 700l. a year and have several houses in London," and showed me a bundle of leases—she said that she was the owner of a large house next to the blind school in Oxford Street, which she had let to a sewing machine company on a long lease for 250l. a year, and a very large house at High gate, By field or Burfield House, which she showed me a sketch of, similar to this (produced)—she said that it was left to her by her mother, and had 30 rooms, and it stood on 2 1/2 acres of land, that it was to let, and a policeman and his wife were in charge of it at 1l. a week, and she had let the stable for 1l. a week—I believed those statement, and gave her board and lodging for 10 weeks, which came to about 57l.—she left on 18th October without paying—I told her I should immediately take proceedings against her, as I had made inquiries and found that she was a fraud and a swindler—she said that she would pay me that day, as she would go and see her brother-in-law, Sir George Chetwynd, at 5A, Cork Street—on the evening of 17th October she handed me this letter, which she said she brought from her brother-in-law: "Sir,—Mrs. E.J. Chetwynd has asked me to write to you saying that she is all she represents herself to be. In a few days she will settle your claim so I trust you will be lenient.—Yours truly, Geo. Chetwynd." I told her next morning that I did not believe what she said; she said that if I waited till 6 that evening Sir George Chetwynd would pay me—I went and saw Sir George Chetwynd on the 18th, and I never saw her again till I saw her at the police-court—I made inquiries at 417, Oxford Street, and also at Highgate, and in consequence took proceedings against her.

Cross-examined. No one else was present when these false representations were made—I met her in the hall as she was going out and spoke to her, and we went into No. 2 room—she took the bundle of leases out of her bag, and the picture—she was going out with them—I saw Mr.

Van Tromp about 2nd October—I don't know whether he is here—I saw no one taking care of the house in Oxford Street; I only saw Captain Eagle, who she said was her husband—I have said that before to lots of people—I did not receive a note from Major Stoddart, but she showed me one to the effect that he would call and see her—I went into her room one sight at Captain Eagle's invitation, and smoked and drank with him—he told me that she had one house in Oxford Street, not three—she said that she could pay the money at once if she liked to part with her lease—they both guaranteed 40 times that I should be paid—I understood he was her husband, or I would never have allowed him in the house; that was why I continued to trust her, and I suggested that I would take half the amount—after that interview with Captain Eagle Major Stoddart came, and after I had taken a summons out, and offered me a bill—I would not take it because I had heard so many false statements—the only inquiry I had then made was of Mr. Van Tromp—that was not satisfactory, and I agreed to take half the money and a bill and some substantial security, and they offered a Major on the Staff—I did not suggest to the prisoner that Sir George Chetwynd's letter was a forgery—I said that I would go there with her at once, and I did so—that was 9 a.m., before Sir George was there—I went again, and asked him if he wrote the letter—he said that he did, but that he knew nothing at all about her—she never came back, and I never saw her afterwards—Dr. Tibbetts lives in the next street, but I never went to inquire of him.

By the COURT. Her statement that she had 700l. a year influenced me in giving her credit—she said that she had let the house at Highgate to Dr. Tibbetts at 150l. a year, and that had an influence on me, as also had her saying that she was the sister-in-law of Sir George Chetwynd.

HERBERT TIBBETTS , M.D. I live at 68, Wimpole Street, and have an establishment at Binfield House, Highgate, which the prisoner superintended from February last to September 30—I paid her a salary—I have a lease of the house; the prisoner has no right or title to it, nor was she entitled to receive any rent with regard to it.

Cross-examined. While she was with me I had the greatest confidence in her—Mr. Jeffery made no inquiries of me till she had been in his house 10 weeks—I wished to dispose of the house at Highgate for 1,000l., and told the prisoner I would give her 5 per cent, if she found me a purchaser.

JOHN WHITE . I am a ship and insurance broker at 416, Oxford Street—the prisoner took the upper part of my house at 160l. a year in the name of Chetwynd to carry on a nurses' institute—she staved till June—I distrained for rent, two quarters being due, and seized and sold the furniture—she was not the owner of the place.

Cross-examined. This is the lease (produced)—by it I let it to her for 11 1/2 years from 24th June, 1881—my solicitor, Mr. Cork, took the steps to eject her and recovered possession—I have let it again by lease, and a new tenant is in possession.

SIR GEORGE CHETWYND, BART . I live at 5A, Cork street—the prisoner is not my wife or my sister-in-law—I do not know whether she is any relation—she called on me in September or October—I had never seen. her before—she asked me if I could get her a situation as lady companion or lady housekeeper, and that she was the wife of E.G. Chetwynd—

I asked her who he was, as I did not know—she said that he was the brother of Mr. Chetwynd who lived at Brockton Hall, a second cousin of mine—on 17th October, when I arrived at home, I found her in the hall—she said that she was in great distress, and owed her landlord some money, and did not know what to do—I asked why she did not communicate with her relations—she said she was so worried she had not time, and asked me to write a letter to her landlord, Mr. Jeffrey, of Henrietta Mansion, Cavendish Square, asking him not to be hard upon, her, not to press her for the rent—I did so on condition that she would communicate with her relations—this is my letter—I did not know that she had represented herself as my wife or my sister-in-law, and I wrote it from motives of kindness, believing her statement—Mr. Jeffrey called on me at 10 o'clock next morning, and I told him I had telegraphed to Mr. Chetwynd of Brockton Hull, and would communicate with him—I received an answer that evening when I returned home, and wrote to Mr. Jeffrey, enclosing the letter and some testimonials which the prisoner had left with me.

Cross-examined. I knew that Mr. Chetwynd lived at Brockton Hall; the prisoner did not give me that address—I know nothing of her relations—she told me that she was the wife of E.G. Chetwynd, and that he had gone to Australia and was a great scamp—I then asked who he was, and she said the brother of Mr. Chetwynd, of Brockton Hall—I cannot say that any single representation she has made to me is a false pretence.

Re-examined. I cannot say that as to her representations to other people.

ALFRED HENRY STACEY . I am an officer of the Bankruptcy Court—I produce the proceedings in the bankruptcy of Sarah Rebecca Chetwynd—the adjudication is dated 18th July, 1882—she is still uncertificated.

Cross-examined. I find an item on page 3 "May 6th, Attending proceedings for divorce and taking notes," also "Attending and obtaining particulars of defendant's marriage;" it does not say "with Mr. E.G. Chetwynd," but she is described as the wife of Edward George Chetwynd.

THOMAS CLOAKE (Police Sergeant D). On the 8th I went to 7, Green Street, Park Lane, and saw the prisoner—I said "I am a police officer and have a warrant to arrest you"—she said "It is false, there was no intent to defraud; it was not till Monday I heard that a warrant was taken out, I heard a summons was taken out, but not before it was too late to appear; is there anything against Egan?"—I said "No"—she took three letters out of her bag and tore them up—I put one of them together; this is it (produced)—I found 64 duplicates at her residence.

Cross-examined. When I went there I asked for Mrs. Chetwynd; no difficulty was made about producing her—she was charged in this warrant with obtaining board and lodging value 57l. by fraud—she told me that the letters were private and did not refer to the case—I have no reason to think that that is not true.

GUILTY .— Six Months' Hard Labour.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-64
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

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64. JOHN SMITH (18) , Burglariously breaking and entering the dwelling-house of Robert Baton with intent to steal.

FREDERICK OVERTON (Policeman G 16). On 13th November I was on duty in London Street, Gray's Inn Road, and about 2 o'clock I tried the door of the Swindon Arms and saw that the window was open, there are iron railings 4 feet high round it—I heard some one go from the bar to

the door over the counter—I went round the corner to the door and heard a bolt go—I pushed the door, but it would not open—I went back and entered through the open window into the bar parlour, through the bars and over the counter, and found the prisoner lying under a seat—there was no light—I asked him what he was doing there—he said "I have been left here drunk when the house was closed"—he did not appear to be any the worse for drink—nothing was found on him—I awoke the landlord, who came down and charged him.

MARGARET DRIVER . I am single and live with my brother-in-law, who keeps the Swindon Arms—on 12th November I was the last up; I closed the house at 12.15 or 12.20 o'clock—the bar window was shut and fastened and the whole house was properly shut up—the bar window is seldom opened, only when it is cleaned—I saw the prisoner and another young man in the bar that night—prisoner's wife was not with him when he came in, but she came in and they went out together at 11.30 and did not come in afterwards.

ROBERT PATSON . I keep the Swindon Arms—I know that the window was shut and fastened the night before—I found it wide open when the policeman called me.

The Prisoner's Statement before the Magistrate. "I was left in the house intoxicated, and when I awoke I did the best I could to get out. I have no witnesses."

Witness for the Defence.

WILLIAM PARKER . I am a hair-dresser—on 12th November I was with the prisoner from 3 p.m. to 9 p.m. in the Ship beershop, Gray's Inn Road—I came out with him, and we went to the Silver Cup and had a pint of ale—I left him at 9.45 and went home to Compton Street, Goswell Road, and had a wash, and changed my clothes, and came back and saw the prisoner standing opposite the Swindon Arm's—we went to the Silver Cup and had another drink, and then I went into a benefit and came out again, and the prisoner was there—he had got a pint of ale and he had some gin and whisky given to him, which he poured into the ale—I went to drink some of it but could not; it was too strong—we went into the Swindon Arms and had a pint of ale—I asked him just upon 12 o'clock whether he was coming home, as he was so drunk—he said "No, I shan't come home," and I left him in the bar—Miss Driver served us with the drink.

MARGARET DRIVER (Re-examined). It is false that I served the prisoner with drink about a quarter to 12 o'clock; I served him with a pint of ale about 11 o'clock—I did not see Parker there at all that evening, it is untrue that I served them both with beer—no one could have been standing in the bar or where the prisoner was found without my seeing him—I am certain that that part of the house was empty when I went to bed.

GUILTY . He then PLEADED GUILTY**† to a conviction at this Court in November, 1881.— Twelve Months' Hard Labour.

THIRD COURT.—Saturday, November 24th, 1883.

Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-65
VerdictGuilty > lesser offence
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

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65. CHARLES BENNETT (23) , Burglary in the dwelling-house of Robert Green Grimes, and stealing two boots and 5l. 10s. Second Count, Receiving.

MR. BURNIE Prosecuted.

MARY ANN HOFSUMMER . I am barmaid to Mr. Grimes, a licensed victualler in Lambeth Street, Whitechapel—on the morning of 29th September I came down about 6 o'clock and saw the folding doors at the bottom of the stairs open—the bolts of the doors leading into the bar were dropped—they had been shut about 12.30—I saw a thick walking-stick on the counter, and some glasses with whisky and water in them, which were not there the night before—I informed my master.

ROBERT GREEN GRIMES . I keep the White Bear, Lambeth Street, Whitechapel—about 6 am. on 29th September the last witness said something to me outside my bedroom door—I went down and missed 5l. from a cupboard in the bar parlour, where I put them at 11.45 the night before—I also missed 5s. or 6s. from a till in the bar, and these two right-footed boots (produced)—the two left ones were left behind—this stick (produced), found on the counter, was shown to me—I found these leggings on a chair in the bar parlour—they do not belong to me—a window on the staircase was partly open—that was closed when I went to bed about 12.30—outside that window is a flat roof—any one could easily get through the window from the roof on to the stairs—at the bottom of the stairs are folding doors to the bar—they were closed when I went to bed at 12.30—they were open; the box staples were unscrewed and taken off, and a table-knife which had been used to unscrew them was lying on the stairs, and in that way the door had been opened—the bolts of the door leading from the taproom into the yard were drawn—they had not succeeded in opening the outer door, which closed with a spring and two bolts—they had let themselves out that way and then pulled the door to and the spring fastened it—I communicated with the police—all these four boots belong to me.

ALFRED BOLTON (Detective Officer H). About 10.30 p.m. on 11th October I saw the prisoner in a beershop in Brick Lane, Spitalfields—I said "I shall take you in custody for burglariously breaking and entering the White Bear public-house on 29th September last and stealing a quantity of money and a pair of old boots, and leaving behind a pair of leggings and a pair of boots"—he said "I sold the leggings to a man a week or two ago."

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. You did not tell me where you got the boots from—I do not know a man named Collarsup—we have made inquiries about him and cannot find any trace of him.

WILLIAM THICK (Detective H). I was with Bolton when the prisoner was taken—he was wearing the two right-footed boots which have been identified—at Leman Street Police-station I said "Take them off"—he took them off—I said "Where did you get them from?"—he said "They were given to me last Saturday morning by a man I don't know"—I said "That is another lie"—he said "The man I don't know, but they call him 'Collarsup'"—he gave me no other name, and said he did not know where he lived—the boots left in the house are here—they were not fitted on to the prisoner.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. You said you did not know Collarsup's name—you did not tell me he was a former potman of Mr. Grimes.

ROBERT GREEN GRIMES (Re-examined). The boots left behind were found in the bar parlour—my own were left under the sofa that night.

By the JURY. I never knew Collarsup by that name till the prisoner was taken in custody—I believe Robert Walter Bellew is the man the

prisoner speaks of as Collarsup—he left my service about three months previous to the robbery—I discharged him for dishonesty—I do not know where he is now.

The prisoner, in his defence, contended that if a man stole boots he would steal a pair, and that he would not put on what he stole to be identified by them.

GUILTY on second count. Six Months' Hard Labour.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-66
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

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66. JOSEPH BROWN (30) , Robbery with violence, with two others, on Richard Matthews, and stealing a watch and chain, his property.

MR. BURNIE Prosecuted.

GEORGE FENNELL . I am a printer and live at 117, East Road, City Road—about 11.20 on 10th October I was at the central gate of the meat market—three men, of whom the prisoner was one, passed me arm-in-arm with an old gentleman, Richard Matthews—they looked across at me, and the prosecutor left go their arms as if to go away from them—I looked back afterwards and they were arm-in-arm again—I am not aware that there was any one else in the street—they took him across John Street by the post-office at the further corner of Charterhouse Square—I moved and was right opposite them—I heard a noise, as if Mr. Matthews went down on the ground, and I heard him groaning—I saw where he was—I ran across the road at that moment—he was at the corner of Fox Court Street, lying in the road—he could not get up—the three men had all just got up off of him and were passing something to one another—before they got off I saw one of them, I can't say which, unbutton his coat and waistcoat—I was going to seize one of them, but they made a stop, which I thought was to attack me, and I stepped back and gave them an opportunity of running—they all went down Haynes Street—I followed and was two yards behind—I shouted out at the top of my voice—they ran all three abreast into Long Lane—Constable 296 came up and joined me in the chase—we ran alongside and saw the three get to the top of Long Lane, where the constable stopped the prisoner—the other two escaped—from the time I saw the three men leave the old gentleman till the time the prisoner was stopped I did not lose sight of them—I went back with the constable to the place where the old gentleman was previously lying and found he was gone—I afterwards saw him—he appeared as if he had been drinking, but was just getting over it.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. When I charged you with undoing the man's coat you were at the corner of the Manchester Hotel—I was alongside the constable—I was crossing the road when I saw you undoing the coat—I charge you because I did not lose sight of you.

EDWIN FREDERICK DEWBERRY (City Policeman 296). About 11.30 p.m. on 10th October I was on duty in Long Lane—I heard cries of "Stop thief" coming from the direction of Haynes Street—I proceeded there and saw three men running, the prisoner was one, going eastwards up Long Lane—I ran alongside of Fennell and caught the prisoner at the corner of Long Lane and Aldersgate Street, outside the Manchester Hotel—Fennell said an old gentleman had been knocked down in Charterhouse Street—I look the prisoner to the station—he was not charged then, but detained while I made inquiries—I afterwards found Mr. Richard Matthews at King's Cross Road Police-station, and brought him back to Snow Hill Station, where the prisoner was, and he charged the prisoner—the prisoner said "I am innocent; I met the two men as I was going home; they asked me for some

matches, and while giving them a match Fennell suddenly shouted out 'Stop thief!' and the two men that were along with me suddenly shouted out 'Fire!' and I did not know what to do, so ran with the two men"—Mr. Matthews had been drinking, but knew perfectly what he was about—I did not search the prisoner, I think Watts did.

Cross-examined. You stopped when I caught you—you were running as fast as the others, as hard as you could go.

JOHN JAMES WATTS (City Policeman 369). I searched the prisoner at the station, I found nothing on him.

RICHARD MATTHEWS . I have no occupation—I live at 15, Quadrant Road, Islington—on the night of 10th October I was in Charterhouse Street, walking towards Aldersgate Street, at a little after 11 o'clock—I was wearing a gold watch and chain worth about 20l.—I was suddenly tripped up and thrown down on my back by three men whom I distinctly saw—I could not recognise any of them, the shock was too much for me—I was not hurt more than that my nervous system was shaken very much—I feel it now—after I was thrown down I discovered that I had lost my watch and chain.

By the COURT. I was not very drunk, I had had a little—I had been about all day—I do not recognise the prisoner as one of the men who had hold of my arm before.

The Prisoner's Statement before the Magistrate. "I can only say I know nothing at all about the affair. They pulled my arm and asked me for some halfpence, and asked me for a match. I gave them a match, then they asked the way to Shoreditch, and then they said 'Cut across the road as fast as you can,' and before I had got half a yard I heard the young man call 'Police!'"

The prisoner in his defence stated that the prosecutor asked for a match and the way to Shoreditch, when Fennell called out "Stop thief!" that he went to the top of Long Lane and stopped, and the constable took him.

GUILTY of robbery without violence. Nine Months' Hard Labour.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-67
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

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67. THOMAS BLAKE (43) , Stealing two dresses, an ulster, and a blanket, of William Cooper, and afterwards breaking out of his dwelling-house. Second Count, Receiving.

MR. BAYLISS Prosecuted.

CAROLINE COOPER . I am the wife of William Cooper, of 11, Eaton Terrace, Alexandra Place, Plaistow—at 11.30 on the morning of 15th October the prisoner came and asked for lodgings; I let him a bedroom—he came again at 7.30 p.m.—I asked him up into the front room to see the room he was to have—he went to bed about 10 o'clock—there were two dresses, an ulster, and a cashmere jacket belonging to me hanging up behind the door of that room—I got up next morning about 6 o'clock, and my husband went to the prisoner's room—he called me, and I missed all the things from behind the door, and also a blanket off the bed that the prisoner slept on—I did not notice the window—all the articles were shown to me at the Poplar Police-station on the same evening—these are they (produced)—they are worth 2l. 15s.—I had last seen them behind my door the night before, before I went to bed.

WILLIAM COOPER . I am the husband of the lost witness—on the morning of the 16th I got up just before 6 o'clock and went to the prisoner's

room, which was on the first floor—there are only two floors—I tapped at the door three times and then went in—the prisoner was not there—the window was open, the blind up—I had seen the window at 10 o'clock the night before, when I went to bed, it was then fastened with a spring; we were then both in the room together—I looked in the garden and found footsteps—the window is about 12 feet above the ground; there is nothing to break the fall but a slight window ledge a few feet down; if he had caught his foot on that it would have thrown him on to the railings—I saw fingermarks on the window-ledge, which goes off straight, and footmarks in the garden under the window, one straight down and the other projecting—both the doors were fastened—I went to Barking Station and gave information about half-past 6 o'clock—I had asked the prisoner the night before if I should call him, and he said no, his employers would do so; but I did go to call him.

CHARLES KING (Policeman K 328). I saw the prisoner at 4.15 on the morning of 16th October, when I was on duty in High Street, Poplar—he was carrying a bundle under his arm—it contained two dresses, an ulster, and a jacket—I said "Where did you get them from?"—he said "They belonged to my wife; she has been living in service in the Burdett Road, but left there yesterday, and has gone to Brentwood, in Essex; I am going to join her to-day there; I am going to take train from Liverpool Street this morning at 6 o'clock"—I said "Where have you been lodging?"—he said "At 15, High Street, Poplar, for a fortnight"—I said "Did you sleep any part of last night at 15, High Street?"—he said "Yes, I went to bed there about 10, and left this morning about 3, and have been over to 15, Clarendon Road, Plaistow, after some things that I left there"—I said "What things?"—at first he would not say; then he said boots that he had left there during the time he had been lodging there—I said I should take him to 15, High Street, Poplar, to see if his statement was correct—we were going in that direction—he said "It is no good going to 15, High Street, Poplar; they know nothing concerning these things, but if you go to Burdett Road with me they will tell you all about them there"—I took him to 15, High Street, called the people up, and found that his statement was false—I then told him I should take him in custody, and he would be charged with the unlawful possession of these things—he then threw the bundle down, and became very excitable, and said "I will give you a lot of trouble; I will not tell you any more"—at the station I found this blanket in his trousers and wound round his waist, and his braces over it and his coat buttoned down—when the charge was read over to him he said "They are all my things; I bought them at Dickenson's pawnshop, Limehouse."

The Prisoner's Statement before the Magistrate. "I did commit myself. I am very sorry."

The Prisoner. I am guilty. I have a wife and three children. I have been at work for a long time.

GUILTY .— Nine Months' Hard Labour.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-69
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

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69. JOHN SULLIVAN (20) , Robbery with violence on Dennis Forest, and stealing his hat and 3d.

MR. LEWIS JONES Prosecuted.

DENNIS FOREST . I live at 19, Cuthbert Street, Hall Park, Paddington, off the Edgware Road, and am a shoemaker—a little after 11 o'clock on

the morning of 30th October I was in the Edgware Road, going homewards, when I was stopped by the prisoner and another man—the prisoner smacked me in the mouth with his open hand, caught hold of me, and threw me down—he had one hand, I cannot tell which, in my right-hand trousers pocket—I tried to hold it there, but could not prevent his hand going in or the money falling out—another friend of his came up, picked up the money, and kicked me—I had 12s. in one side and 9d. in the other—3d. rolled out, and he took it—they both kicked me—the effect of the kicks lasted a great time—I do not feel it now—I did not go to the doctor—I cried out "Police!" three times—my hat was down on the ground—they came back and picked it up, and went away with it—a policeman came up, and I showed him the two men going on in front—he followed them—I was not able to go with him—I saw him come out of the street with him, and I went with the policeman and him to the station—on the road to the station the prisoner said he would wait for me when he came out—at the station he said "Was it I or my mate that robbed you, that picked up the money?"—this is my hat I lost on that day—I identify it by a private mark—the lining is pasted at the side here with shoemaker's paste.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. You put that hat at your back going to the station—I asked the sergeant about it—he said perhaps it might have been lost in the scuffle—at the police-station I gave a description of my own hat, and when you came along I knew it—when the sergeant said it might have been lost in the scuffle you hid the hat behind your back.

Re-examined. The prisoner left his own hat behind—he had nothing on his head as he walked along—I recognised mine next morning at the police-court—I had no hat that night—I saw him pick this hat up—the prisoner's own hat was left behind in the road.

JOHN FIDDLER (Policeman D 224). About 1.15 on the morning of 30th October I was in the Edgware Road, and heard some one shouting "Police!"—I hastened to the spot, and saw the prosecutor there—he pointed to two men walking away—I followed them—they were walking at first, and then they turned round, saw me, and began running as fast as they could—I followed them into some mews—us I was turning the corner into the mews I heard a scuffling noise—there was a van just round the corner—I looked into the van, and the prisoner was lying down at the bottom of the van—I arrested him—I did not see the other man—he got away—the prisoner was quite sober—he was pretending to be drunk and asleep—I could not make him speak for a considerable time—I took him to the station—the prosecutor joined us in Church Street, and said this was the man who insulted him and robbed him—on the way to the station the prisoner said "All right, I will wait for you when I come out"—I took him to the station, searched him, and found nothing on him—the prisoner had this hat on his head—after the prisoner was charged I went back and found a hat in the middle of the road in the direction the prisoner had run—when the prisoner was charged next morning he asked the prosecutor whether it was him who took the money out of his pocket or his mate—I showed the hat I found in the road to the prosecutor, and when he said it was not his I showed it to the prisoner, and he said it was his—the prisoner's hat was the one I picked up.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. Another man jumped up in the van, and pushed you out for me to take hold of your legs—I was not asked whether you were the man or not when you were brought out of the van—I did not say the man was running down there somewhere, and that he had better go down to the corner to see him—I said "I want you to come down here to see this man"—you made no answer—the prosecutor did not say on the way to the station "There is the man I want you to take, not this one"—I said at the station you were acting drunk.

Prisoner's Statement before the Magistrate. "I have nothing to say."

The prisoner in his defence stated he had been drinking, and was going home, and got into the van; he did not know how long he had been there when the constable and another man came and fetched him out. The constable asked whether he was the man. The prosecutor said "No, but he was down there at the corner." After they went there and could not find him the constable again asked if he was not the man, and the prosecutor said "Yes."

GUILTY of robbery without violence. He then PLEADED GUILTY** to a previous conviction of felony on 4th December, 1882.— Eighteen Months' Hard Labour.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-70
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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70. EDWARD FRENCH (33) , together with five others, robbery with violence on Christian Hermann Faber, and stealing a pair of boots and 5s., his goods and money.

MR. ELGOOD Prosecuted; MR. WARBURTON Defended.

CHRISTIAN HERMANN FABER . I live at 9, Abbey Lane, Stratford, and am a baker—early on Sunday morning, 4th November, I was walking along the Whitechapel Road a little after 1—near the London Hospital I was attacked by six men, thrown on the ground, my boots taken of my feet, and about 12s. in money taken out of my pocket, and the buttons torn off my waistcoat—I was not quite sober—I am not able to identify the prisoner, it was done too quickly.

Cross-examined. I could not swear to the prisoner at all—I am a German—I did not see a doctor.

By the JURY. I was on the ground, and they were lying on me and taking my boots off—they didn't kick me, only my finger was a little hurt—my boots were sidesprings.

FRANCIS COGHLAN (Policeman H 298). I was on duty in the Whitechapel Road on the morning of Sunday, 4th November, with another constable in plain clothes, about 1 o'clock—we saw the prosecutor with a friend—I next saw two constables in uniform, and the prisoner and five others—one of them said "Hold on, there is a couple of coppers"—we followed them down the road, up to the corner of East Mount Street—the prosecutor and his friend parted there, and the prosecutor went down East Mount Street—the prisoner and his five friends followed them, and I followed them—I then saw the prosecutor on the ground—I was about six yards off—when they saw me they made a rush to go away—the prisoner was in a stooping position over the prosecutor—he had hold of one of the boots or shoes, I could not say which they were—I made a grab at him, and failed to hold him—he then fell into Constable Brown's hands—he missed his hold, and he broke away from him—I caught him on the opposite side of the way—we both fell against the wall—in the struggle I knocked his hat off—I took him into custody—he said "I have nothing to do with the

others; I did not do anything. I was coming along home, when the other men ran, and I was knocked down. I came along Philip Street behind a lady and gentleman"—I took him to the London Hospital gate, and asked the porter to allow Brown to remain there with the prisoner while I got further assistance—he did so—I got over the back railings of the hospital and fetched a constable, and we took the prisoner to the station—I can positively identify the prisoner as one of the men who was upon the prosecutor—we passed him in the road.

Cross-examined. I saw the prisoner in the street—there was another constable at my back—we could not arrest the others, because the prisoner was so violent—he broke away—we attempted to arrest the others—I touched them and they me in getting away—he added after "I came along Philip Street behind a lady and gentleman"—"I know nothing about it"—the prosecutor was lying on his back—I could not tell whether both the boots were on—it is not very dark there—it is not a particularly low street, it is a rough neighbourhood.

Re-examined. The prisoner was in a stooping position, with the boot through his arm—I am not sure if it was on or off—when he got up both his boots were off.

By MR. WARBURTON. I saw the bottom of the boot—I could not see if it was on or off—I could not see the other side.

EDWARD BROWN (Policeman H 380). I was with the last witness on the night in question in the Whitechapel Road—I saw the prisoner following the prosecutor with five others—I was behind—I did not see the prosecutor knocked down; I saw him on the ground, and the prisoner getting from a stooping position off of him—I saw nothing of the boots—I was not so close as the last witness—when they saw us they all ran away—we made for the prisoner, and the last witness caught him—he slipped through his hands and came into mine—he slipped through my hands and got across the road—the last witness followed, caught, and held him—his hat was in the road, and as the prisoner became violent and we had to hold him, I don't know what became of it—the prosecutor was under the influence of drink, his clothes were pulled open, and he was without boots—Coghlan searched the prisoner at the station.

Cross-examined. Some money was found on him and given back to the prosecutor—the boots have never been found—I only saw the prisoner stooping over the man—I was about 10 yards off—we rushed on them, and they ran away—we looked for the boots, but could not find them—I saw the prisoner with the other men a few minutes before 1 o'clock; he walked along on my right hand.

FRANCIS COGHLAN (Re-examined) I searched the prisoner and found 3s. on him, which was given back to the prosecutor.

GUILTY . He then PLEADED GUILTY**† to a conviction of felony in this Court in April, 1873.— Five Years' Penal Servitude.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-71
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment; Imprisonment > hard labour

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71. JAMES CONNOR (22) and THOMAS MUNTON (42) , Robbery with violence on John Gallagher, and stealing a purse, a piece of paper, keys, a ring, and 6 1/2d.

MR. NORTH Prosecuted; MR. WARBURTON defended Munton.

JOHN GALLAGHER (Policeman H 221). On the night of 15th October I was in plain clothes, and came to Paternoster Court, Spitalfields, at a quarter to 10—there was a disturbance in Dorset Street, and after it was

over I proceeded down the court to get into Burdett Street—I was opposite No. 6, a common lodging-house, when I saw the prisoners and another man come out of the lodging-house—Connor, standing on my left, struck me on the side of my head with his fist—Munton passed round to my right, my hands were pinioned by the two prisoners and somebody else standing at the rear of me, and Connor put his hand into my left-hand trousers pocket and took out 6 1/2 d. in bronze—Munton put his hand into the right-hand trousers pocket and took out a purse containing a photograph order worth 24s., four keys, and a split ring—I caught hold of Connor, struggled with him, and tried to detain him—he struck at me right and left, and so did Munton from the right, until I became almost stupid—I was thrown down two or three times, and received a kick on the legs and a blow on the nose, which bled for some considerable time—I was forced to let Connor go; I turned round, and then saw him struggling with Wiltshire—he got away, and I pursued—I saw him come into contact with a woman, and I believe he fell over her; the constable fell over him—I did not see him fall over—I ran up and fell over Wiltshire and the prisoner—he was taken to the station then; we got more assistance—Robinson saw nothing of what had taken place—the prisoners are the two men; I knew them both before.

Cross-examined by MR. WARBURTON. Paternoster Court is a short, narrow turning, leading from Dorset Street into Burdett Street—Connor was the first person who struck me—he gave me a severe blow, but it did not knock me down—Connor and Munton knocked me down—the first blow made me stagger; I was not very deadened in my senses till afterwards—I have not found my property since—none was found on Munton, only an old hat in his pocket—I saw him searched—I was unable to do any duty for 14 days; I saw a doctor—the prisoners were the only persons who passed me—three or four or five others followed the prisoners out of the lodging-house—there had been a disturbance in Dorset Street, 15 or 20 yards off—you cannot see this court from there—there were between 20 and 30 people in the disturbance; it was in front of the Blue Boar public-house—there is a public-house in Paternoster Court, three or four yards from where the assault took place, and there is a street lamp close by.

Cross-examined by Connor. You might have said "Oh, you wicked man to accuse me of taking 6 1/2 d. out of your waistcoat" when I charged you at the station with it; I do not know—I did not throw a cap into the dock where you were standing, nor did I see one thrown—I did not find anything on you—before I searched you I did not say "Now I will find 6 1/2 d."—I had a stick in my hand, and that was taken away and I saw a portion of it, but I would not swear I was struck with the stick.

By the JURY. I don't know that the prisoners knew I was a constable at the time—I think not, though I knew their faces well.

JAMES WILTSHIRE (Policeman H 97). On the night of 15th November I was called to Paternoster Court about 10 minutes to 10—I saw Connor strike Gallagher and kick him at the same time—I took Connor into custody; he resisted—I was thrown to the ground; I got up and secured him again—I was thrown to the ground again—Connor kicked me as I lay on my back—I got up and pursued the prisoner, who went in the direction of Dorset Street—he came in contact with a woman, knocking her backwards—he fell, I fell over him, and Gallagher fell over me—

the prisoner got up, and I took him into custody with Gallagher's assistance, and he was taken to the station—I did not see Munton at all that night to my knowledge.

Cross-examined by Connor. I don't know anything about you being on the left-hand side of the prosecutor—I saw you striking and kicking him; I stated that at Worship Street.

Cross-examined by MR. WARBURTON. I did not see Munton at all.

GEORGE COX (Policeman H 56). On 16th November I went to 6, Paternoster Court, and took Munton into custody at the lodging-house—Gallagher was with me, and pointed out the prisoner, and said "That is one of the men who assaulted me last night"—as I approached the prisoner he said "Swelp me, G—, governor, I am innocent," before I told him the charge—I was in plain clothes—he did not know me—I had never seen him before.

Cross-examined by MR. WARBURTON. We were all in plain clothes—we went inside, into the kitchen; he was there.

WILLIAM CURTIN (Policeman H 10). I was present with Cox when Gallagher pointed out Munton and said "That is the man"—the prisoner said "Swelp me G—, governor, I am innocent"—that was said, before he was charged, to Cox, as he was about to take him—Gallagher had said "That is the man," and Cox went to take him, and he said so—at the station Munton said (I wrote it down) "I was at Bath Street at 9 o'clock, and came back to the Market House at about 9.30 and stopped about 10 minutes, and then went home"—he said at the police-court he stopped at the Market House till turning-out time.

Cross-examined by MR. WARBURTON. I was in plain clothes when I went in the house with the others to arrest Munton—they went up to arrest him after he had been pointed out.

Witness for Munton's Defence.

CAROLINE BARKER . I live now at 5, Red Lion Market, White Cross Street—on 15th November I was living at 6, Paternoster Court—I was in the kitchen there all day and all the evening until about 20 minutes to 12 at night—there were a great many people there—I did not see the prisoner there from after 7 till about 11.30 at night.

Connor's Defence. I was coming up the court and saw some men attacking the constable and striking him over the head with a stick, and they ran up Dorset Street. When he got up he came across to me. Munton had nothing to do with it; he was having a pot of beer with two or three men. I am quite innocent of it. He could not have been there without my knowing it.

GUILTY . MUNTON then PLEADED GUILTY** to a previous conviction of felony in April, 1869, in the name of Edward Barker. CONNOR— Five Years' Penal Servitude. MUNTON— Eighteen Months' Hard Labour.

OLD COURT.—Monday and Tuesday, November 26th and 27th, 1883.

Before Mr. Justice Stephen.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-72
VerdictsGuilty > pleaded guilty; Guilty > unknown
SentencesImprisonment > penal servitude; Imprisonment > penal servitude

Related Material

72. GEORGE WARDEN (44) and JOHN DAVIS WATTERS (39) were indicted for stealing on 21st May certain valuable securities belonging to the River Plate Bank, Limited, the masters of Watters. Other Counts charging Watters with feloniously receiving the same. To this

WARDEN PLEADED GUILTY , also to two other indictments for like offences on other days.— Twelve Years' Penal Servitude.

SIR H. S. GIFFARD, Q.C., with MESSRS. POLAND and WOODFALL, Prosecuted;

MR. EDWARD CLARKE, Q.C., with MESSRS. FILLAN and BROUN, defended Watters; MR. POPE, Q.C., appeared for Warden.

WILLIAM WELCH DELOITTE . I am a member of the firm of D. Griffiths and Co., chartered accountants, and am one of the auditors of the River plate Bank, Limited—Mr. Vanner is the other auditor—it was part of my duty from time to time to audit the accounts of the bank—among other things it was my duty to see that the securities upon which money had been advanced by the bank were in the possession of the bank—on the 20th September the appointment was made for the yearly audit—the 1st October was fixed by this letter of Mr. Warden's which I received—I arranged with Mr. Vanner to attend at the bank at 12 o'clock that day—we did so attend, and in the secretary's room proceeded to examine the securities—Mr. Warden, the secretary and manager of the bank, was in attendance—I first of all examined the bills jointly with Mr. Vanner, and found these to be correct—we then proceeded to examine the securities—Mr. Warden gave me this paper marked "G"—it is a list of securities on 30th September, 1883, which is the end of the financial year of the bank—we had to see that the securities in that list were produced—Warden produced the securities to me; he had not done so on previous occasions, the security clerk had usually done so—the first on the list was the Commercial Bank of Alexandria, Limited, against a loan of 25,000l.; I had to see that there was 830,000 Egyptian preference stock—I and Mr. Vanner examined them and found them correct—the next item was Laurence, Sons and Gordon against a loan of 70,000l.; in due course those securities were produced—there were 5,000 New South Wales 5 per cent, bonds, 10,000 Egyptian Preference, 27, 500 Egyptian Unified, 1,000 Egyptian State Domain, 5,000 other Egyptian stock, 5,000 Turkish, 1,600 Pennsylvania Railway shares, 3,000 Ottoman, and 300 Suez Canal shares—those were all produced by Mr. Warden, examined by Mr. Vanner and myself, and ticked as correct—Mr. Warden produced the securities, and they were returned to him as we ticked them—then there was J. Ainger against a loan of 35,000l., 10,000 Egyptian Preference, State Domain 71,000, and 3,000 Argentine Hard dollar Bonds—none of those were produced to us—Mr. Warden said he should go down into the Treasury to get the other securities, but he did not return—that was between 12 and 2, or between 1 and 2 o'clock—he did not return, and I did not see him again till he was in custody—I reported the matter to the chief accountant, Mr. Layton—I left with the understanding that I should come next morning and re-examine the whole of the securities—these red ink marks are not my writing, I cannot say whose they are—I went through the securities again on the Wednesday morning, and Mr. Clerk examined them after I left.

Cross-examined. I am a professional accountant—I acted jointly with my colleague—he is not a professional accountant—I have been auditor to the bank about twenty years and am still—my fee for the audit itself is 150l.—a certain portion of the vouchers would be examined by Mr. Vanner and myself at different periods—we began at the end of May or early in June—those were vouchers of payments made by the bank and profit and loss and other things—I examined the securities of the bank

to the end of the financial year, generally the end of October, to ascertain that at the time of my audit all the securities were together in the possession of the bank—that examination in previous years lasted two or three or three or four hours; it depended on the number of securities to be examined—I opened the bundle and counted every individual bond—the first bundle produced was 30,000 Egyptian Preference, but I cannot tell how many bonds there were, as there were several twenties among them; there might be 20 or there might be 150—20l. is the least bond—on previous occasions Mr. William Neale Clark, the security clerk, had produced the bonds, and the examination then took place generally in an upper room up one or two pairs of stairs, but on this occasion it took place in the Secretary's office on the ground floor—no explanation was given me of why Mr. Clark did not produce the securities on this occasion, but it did not occur to me to ask any question about that—I do not think I saw him in the course of that examination, but I saw him afterwards—I do not think any one but Mr. Warden came into the room during the examination—the manager had not been present at previous examinations of the securities—it did not occur to me to be necessary to have all the securities before me at once; I should have thought it very unlikely that a bank manager would take a parcel of securities from the room, get them outside, and then get another parcel—the 30,000 Egyptian Bonds made up a parcel three or four times the size of this brief—the secretary's room opens into the general portion of the establishment—I never saw the strong room—I got there at 12 o'clock, and Mr. Vanner and I sat down to have the documents produced to us—the 30,000 Preference Stock was first brought in in parcels, and we began to examine them—Mr. Vanner counted some as well as myself, and I jotted them down to see that they made the aggregate—we took parcels of 20 and parcels of 100 and added them together—when we had finished they were given back to Mr. Warden—I don't know what be did with them—I cannot say whether other bonds were in the room at the time on his table—they were not produced to us till we had finished examining the first lot—he went in and out of the room, but I did not notice whether he did so frequently—I noticed nothing particular till he disappeared—I had not the slightest suspicion of there being anything wrong.

WILLIAM ROBERT LATHANGUE . I am manager of the London office of the Commercial Bank of Alexandria, 2, Moorgate Street—on 30th August we arranged with Mr. Warden a loan from the River Plate Bank on the deposit of 30,000 Egyptian Stock, which we sent there that day, consisting of 11 bonds of 1,000l., 28 of 500l., and 250 of 20l. each—this is an extract from our books—I sent one of our clerks with the bundle of bonds to the bank and he brought back this receipt. (Dated August, 1883, for 30,000 Egyptian Stock, and signed "George Warden." We never received back those identical bonds—they were to bearer.

CLIFFORD CORNELIUS WOOD . I am a clerk in the Commercial Bank, Lothbury—on 30th August I took 30,000 Egyptian Bonds to the River Plate Bank in a bundle, tied round, but not sealed—I got this receipt, and brought it to the Commercial Bank.

TORRANCE MCMICKING . I am a member of the Stock Exchange, and carry on business at 4, Austin Friars—I have known Watters about a year as a stock and share broker at Draper's Gardens—he is an outside broker, not a member of the Stock Exchange—we had a small transaction

last November, and he dealt with me again last March, since when he has employed me to buy and sell stocks on the Stock Exchange—I believe they were speculative transactions, and they were to the extent of several millions—all the contracts I make on the Stock Exchange I am personally liable for—he deposited securities with me from time to time as cover, and I always had a margin of 10 per cent, in case the stocks should go down—the settling days at the Stock Exchange are at the end and middle of the month—these speculative transactions are called time bargains—the account is made up at the end of each fortnight without the actual thing purchased being handed over, but a balance is struck—I made out a contract note in every case on the same evening between 3 and 4 or 4 and 5 o'clock, which showed the transaction—this letter of 24th May is signed by Watters. (Authorising the witness to take any Stock at any time towards liquidating any balance against him (Watters), stipulating for the right of paying off any amount at any moment, and that the same securities which he had deposited were to be returned to him.) On 1st October I had advanced 55,000l.; I got security from him for 60,000l.—I deposited most of the bonds with other people and kept some myself—the 10,000l. margin was to cover losses; she object was to cover transactions in other stocks—I believe this letter to be written by Watters. (This was dated 27th September, 1883, and signed J.D. Waiters, requesting the witness to arrange the loans on certain docks in a list enclosed amounting to 29, 500l. as from day to day, as he would probably pay off the loan on them on the next Monday, and would see that the witness was not left without cover.) I received that on the day it bears date—I did not answer it—I then received this memorandum in Watters's writing: "28th September, 1883. Herewith cheque to pay off loan on 600 Pennsylvanians. Please see that it is the last 600 I delivered to you.—J.D.W." This cheque for 6, 480l., signed by Watters, accompanied it, in exchange for which I delivered to him the 600 Pennsylvanians referred to—on 1st October, about 10.30 a.m., I received this letter, enclosing two cheques. (Signed J.D.W., requesting certain stock to be given up. The cheques were dated October 1, for 14,000l. and 15,000l., payable to the order of T. McMicking, Esq., and signed J.D. Watters.) I had the securities under my control—I saw Watters at my office about 11.30, and told him I could not give up the securities unless he gave me other securities in exchange, a marked cheque or bank notes—a marked cheque is one marked by the banker upon whom it is drawn that it will be met when presented—he asked if I could not manage to give him the securities in exchange for the cheques—he went away and I believe he returned about 1 or 1.30, but I am not sure that I saw him—I afterwards received from Watters 16,000 Egyptian Preference, I cannot say personally—one of my clerks then gave him all the securities mentioned in the letter by my order: 70 Suez Canal shares, 460 Pennsylvanians, and his cheques for 1,200l. and 1,500l.—the two values were approximately equal to each other—I lodged part or all of the Egyptian Preference shares at the Union Bank of London—this (produced) is a list of them, with the numbers, and these two lists together contain them all—the two cheques were duly paid—next day I wrote out this letter, and Mr. Watters signed it. ("T. McMicking, Esq. Sir,—Will you please sell for cash on the best terms my Stocks, and also the balance on my account. I authorise you to close my account if you think fit.—J.D. Watters.") I closed the account—he asked me to sell the whole of the securities

against which I had advanced money, including the 16,000—I asked him if there was anything wrong—he said "No," or that he did not know, and asked me to carry out his orders, and then I wrote out that letter and asked him to sign it—that was 2nd October, but the account had not been closed—I had made up the account in the ordinary way at the end of the fortnight, and a new fortnight had been entered upon and another account opened—I did not wish to keep a big account open, because he was selling, and I did not wish him to take away the securities I had—I sold the stock on the Stock Exchange, and there was a balance in his favour of 1,482l.—I gave that to the solicitor, the bank having restrained me from paying it over—I afterwards saw Watters in Throgmorton Street, and mentioned the stock I had sold, including the Egyptian, and the price I had sold at—he asked me to render the account as soon as I could, and to pay the balance to him before 4 o'clock; that is to say, during banking hours—the account being a long one, and the book-keeper not having the particulars ready, he was unable to make up the balance before banking hours were over—the cheque could have been ready, but being crossed would be of no use to him that day, as it was past 4 o'clock, so it was not paid that evening—after it was made up Watters came round and saw me next day, and asked me for the cheque—I said that I could not pay it to him, because I had been restrained by the solicitor of the River Plate Bank from doing so—he said that it was a pity I had not paid the cheque over before I received the notice, or he may have said it was a pity I had not made up the account quicker—I had had no notice from the bank, but I had a caution from the solicitor—I did not know Warden in the matter—I never heard of him—I knew no one but Watters from beginning to end—he never told me who his principals were or for whom he was acting.

Cross-examined. I never asked him—those transactions were conducted in the way of business—they were not very unexceptional in their magnitude—a great many people employ brokers to buy and sell to a large amount on the Stock Exchange—the value of the transactions have very little relevancy to what the balance will be—the cover we require depends upon how a person is introduced—the loans are apart from and supplementary to the ordinary account, and a separate account is kept—the first loan was on March 9th, when I advanced 1,200l. against some Argentines of 1881, which remained with me till 21st May, 1883, when I handed back 11,200 Argentines and received 920 Pennsylvanians, which were approximately equal to what I handed back—the Pennsylvanians remained in my possession till 1st October—another loan was contracted between 21st May and 27th June, when I received 2,600 Dominions and 280 Pennsylvanians in exchange for 8,000 Deheras, which I gave up—on 14th August I received 29, 500 Argentines, 600 Pennsylvanians, and 5,000 Dominions, and gave in exchange 18,000 Unified, 1,400 Egyptian Preference, and 2,600 Dominions—on 20th September I received 20,000 Argentine hard dollars, and gave in exchange 1,500 Buenos Ayres of 1873 and 2,200 Pennsylvanians of 1870—on 21st September, 1883, I held 1,800 Pennsylvanians against 12,000 Argentines of 1881, 4,000 Argentines of 1882, 2,000 Egyptian Preference, 5,000 Egyptian Domain, and 49, 500 Argentine hard dollars, against which I had advanced 45, 500l.—I cannot tell you the stock price of the day, but as I advanced within 10 per cent, of the value, the value would be 4, 600 more than the advance I made—on 28th September I received

a cheque from Watters for 6, 480l. to pay off a loan on 600 Pennsylvanians—that cheque was drawn on his own account, and I gave it back to him later in the day on his giving me 5, 600 Argentines of 1882 and 70 Suez Canal Shares—those were given to me towards a fresh loan of 11,000l.—that is an uncommon thing to do—if he had contracted a fresh loan a few hours after, I should think it natural that he should give the same cheque back; it often happens that a broker takes a cheque supposing that the drawer has the whole amount at his banker's, so that a customer receiving securities could realise them and feed his account so as to meet the cheque, and if he tookaway the securities he would get his cheque back—when I took the cheque I never supposed that Watters would want another loan the same day, and I intended to pay it in—I pay in about 3.30, but he wanted another loan, and I handed him his own cheque and a balance cheque for 4, 520l.—my practice is to keep cheques till 3.30, and pay them all in together—his cheque was part of the advance I made him—I presume it would be the same on October 1st if he had received the securities—there could be no difficulty in putting the account in credit—I did not understand the giving of such cheques as a representation that he had the amount at his bank—I have said "There was nothing wrong in his giving me a cheque for 14,000l., he not having that amount at his banker's; his bankers understand this"—a stockbroker on account day usually finds how much he has to pay, draws cheques to that figure, and the people to whom he owes money, according to the multitude of his transactions, take those cheques, but it does not mean that he has that amount, he has to receive money from others, and the cheques he receives are set off against the amount he draws—a man draws for 100,000l. under the expectation that other people will pay him more than 100,000l. in respect of his winnings from them—there is nothing wrong in his drawing cheques up to the value of the security—giving a cheque implies that there is cash at the bank or securities in their possession—the cheque does not represent value in the possession of the person who draws it, but it represents actual cash at the bank—I consider that it represents value in one form or other—a cheque always represents value actually in the possession or under the control of the drawer, but it may be in securities as well as a balance at the bank—if I had a large cheque which a banker had marked, and which he would pay, I should be willing to give it up—29,000l. was more than I was disposed to hand over—I did see the securities, as they were in my possession, but I did not give them up, as I did not choose to trust him with them—that was one reason out of half a dozen—it never crossed my mind that he would misapply them; that would imply that he was capable of running away with them, but I did not like to put 29,000l. into his pocket to do what he liked with—a stockbroker having a large sum to pay and to receive would draw a cheque without regard to the securities in his possession—there are differences—brokers are in the habit of drawing cheques in the hope that their debtors will have paid to enable them to meet their cheques, but generally they are small cheques; but these cheques I am referring to are for 100,000l. and 200,000l. when securities are pawned—I did not myself hand back the securities to Mr. Watters on 1st October—I cannot be sure whether I saw him after the interview that morning; I don't think I did, I may have done—on that day two cheques of mine, one for 1,200l., and one for 1,500l. were handed to him—those cheques came back to me, one through the Union Bank, my bank, and one through the London and

Yorkshire Bank—they were both paid—if the securities had been realised on the morning of 1st October, there would have been a considerable balance in Watters's favour—in the course of the afternoon there was a serious fall in the value of some of the stock.

Re-examined. I don't say that if the account had been closed earlier Watters's account would have realised a profit, but it would have realised much more that it did if it was closed on the following day—I think, from memory there was always a loss in September.

WALTER ALLEN . I am a member of the London Stock Exchange, 1, Copthall Court—I have known the prisoner about four years and have had transactions for him commencing about March last—they were speculative transactions and amounted to about 200,000l.—I rendered contracts and kept regular accounts of the transactions—I required cover, and got about 10 per cent, cover in bonds—on the 17th September I had a considerable number of bonds as cover—on that day I received this letter from the prisoner (This letter requested witness to give the bearer a cheque for 6, 200l. against 20, 500l. Hard Dollars and 15,000l. Argentine Treasury blands)—I gave a cheque for the amount on the City Bank, my bankers—these bonds were brought to me—on 29th September I received this letter giving the particulars of the stock I had on his account—at that time all the securities were at my bank, deposited there on my behalf—on 1st October I received this letter from the prisoner enclosing a cheque for 10,000l. to pay off the loan on certain securities—upon receiving the letter I communicated with the prisoner through a private telephone from my office, stating that the cheque would not do, that I should require a marked cheque or bank notes to enable me to give up the securities—I know his voice, and he replied through the telephone that it would be all right if the money was paid in in the ordinary way to my banking account—I took the cheque to Mr. Watters and told him that I should take it to the bank and see—I then took it to the bank, and they said that they could not take the cheque, that they required a marked cheque or bank notes before they handed over the securities—I then went and told the prisoner that they would not take the cheque and that I could not give him the securities—I suggested that I should go round with him to his banker to have the cheque marked—he said he could not go, or something to that effect; that was between 11 and 12 o'clock in the morning—I next heard from him through the telephone, saying he wished to change some bonds—I afterwards met him in Throgmorton Street about 12 o'clock—he said he wished to change some of the bonds he had—I took him round to my bankers and exchanged the Egyptian bonds for Argentines—he brought some Egyptian bonds with him—I think there were 11,000 preference, and I gave him up certain securities, of which this (produced) is the list; I did not see him after that—I sold the 11,000 Egyptians next day through Messrs. Prior and Williams—they were first sold by another broker, Mr. Ansell; he sold them to Prior and Williams, who are jobbers in the foreign market—I naturally wanted to know how Ansell could sell the bonds when they were in my charge and I asked the prisoner how it was; I don't remember what he said—there was a balance on the transaction—the prisoner asked for it; but the account was not closed, and therefore I kept it till the account was closed, and then it was about 1,700l. to the bad; I mean that he owed me 1700l. after realising every security in my hands—in all these transaction I knew nobody in connection with them besides the prisoner—I knew nothing of Warden, I never heard

of him nor of the River Plate Bank either—I have checked the list of the securities in my hands—they are all initialled by my clerk.

Cross-examined. There was a cover of 1,500l. upon the transactions—my difference on the account came to 3,000l.—if I had not closed the account then it would have been much greater, because some of the stock fell—on the account before that, he owed me about 60l. odd—he always had a copy of the account—the stock he held had become depreciated in value—there was generally a loss upon the transactions.

By the COURT. There were very few in which there was a profit.

FREDERICK HUEY WILLIAMS . I am a member of the Stock Exchange—on 2nd October I bought of Mr. Ansell 11,000l. Egyptian Preference Stock for cash—that bargain was afterwards transferred to Mr. Allen.

ROBERT HENRY CAPPS . I am a stockbroker, of 7, Warneford Court, City—I carry on business under the name of F. Symons and Co.—I have known the prisoner something under two years—during the last six months, before the beginning of October, I had considerable transactions with him—I bought and sold stock for him on the Stock Exchange—I did that, I may say, for a year before October—it became larger about six months before October—I sent him the usual contract notes every evening—the transactions were principally of a speculative character, what are termed "time bargains"—we generally had about 150,000l. of stock open—that amount does not represent these things, because it might be bought and sold 10 times over—I had securities deposited with me as cover—I made advances, keeping a margin of 10 or 12 per cent.—at the end of September I had stock of his in my hands a little under 30,000l. real value—this letter is the prisoner's writing (This was dated 27th September, 1883, stating that he should require on Monday morning next, at 10 o'clock, certain securities of the total value of 14, 200l.)—I had at that time received from Watters the securities therein mentioned—on 1st October I received this letter in the prisoner's writing (This enclosed cheque for 13,000l. to pay off loans on certain securities, to be delivered as early as possible that day)—I believe I received that the first thing in the morning—it was a crossed cheque on his bankers, Fuller and Co.—I paid it in to my bankers, and it was returned unpaid—in exchange for that cheque I gave up the securities mentioned—there is a memorandum on this letter, "Handed to J.D.W. same day"—that is the writing of my manager, Mr. Ricord—I don't know when they were handed over; I was absent from the office the principal part of the day—I heard of the return of the cheque about 7 o'clock the same evening—I did not see the prisoner at all that day—on 2nd October I received this letter from him (Read: "I am every moment expecting a definite reply from the friends of my defaulting client. I may state that by the realisation of securities, in the course of the day I expect to have 14,000l. to meet your cheque, with another for 23,000l. in all. I shall hand the proceeds to you and other gentlemen in proportion, and in the course of the next few days will do my utmost to pay the balance"—this is the 13,000l. cheque that I have referred to; it is endorsed by my clerk—on Tuesday, 2nd October, I saw Mr. Watters about 12 o'clock—he said he thought he would be able to raise sufficient money to put these things wholly straight, partly by the sale of surplusage securities and by assistance from his friends—he said there was a sum of nearly 8,000l. in McMicking's hands which would be available for my firm and McMicking and Co., which would

considerably reduce his liability—he afterwards paid me a sum of over 2,000l.—I had other stock of his at that time, which I have since realised—he has since paid me a little over 2,000l.—he owes me now a little over 16,000l.—I of course, assumed that the 13,000l. cheque would be paid—in the whole of these transactions I knew nobody but Watters—he never told me who his principals were—he led me to understand that he had numerous clients, but none by name—until this inquiry took place I never saw or heard of Warden.

Cross-examined. He told me he was acting for clients—I did not ask their names, and he did not volunteer them—as he had been an old bank manager, and manager of a bank at Bengal, I supposed he had a large number—I don't think I saw him on the morning of 1st October—I don't recollect at what time I got his letter of the 2nd, most likely early in the morning, and shortly afterwards I saw him about 12—he then appeared to be endeavouring to put matters right, and he had already given my manager 1,600l. the first thing in the morning, and said that more would follow—the balance on the account was about 16,000l.—that included the 13,000l. stolen securities, but then we sold other stock, which realised a margin of some thousands, and that reduced it—altogether there was a loss on the current account before we closed it—I can't say the amount of the loss in September, but we were squared by Watters about the end of September—the stock was carried over into the next account, but we had a margin security for it—the stock was not closed, it was simply carried over at what we call the making-up price.

By the COURT. As far as my account was concerned the whole of the 16,000l. of stock was still open, it was not closed—the things that had been purchased were not sold; I mean not paid for—part of them were purchases and part sales—I think about 50,000l. were sales, and 50,000l. had been paid from various persons, and 50,000l. had not been paid for, and not delivered; that is what I mean by being open.

By MR. CLARKE. The account would be made up every account day—I can't say what the balance was at the end of September, I know it was paid for by cheque, and settled—Mr. Ricord can tell you—the claim against McMicking was assigned to me and Miller by Watters two or three days afterwards—I was in communication with Watters with regard to the matter after 2nd October—the assignment was prepared by his solicitor and mine jointly—my solicitor is Mr. Gregson, of Angel Court—I saw Watters every day for several days after 2nd October—I don't think we are being sued by the bank—the thing is in suspense—preliminary proceedings I think have been taken; I think there has been a writ and a statement of claim.

By the COURT. I can't say how much the prisoner's loss would be at the end of September, because that would be subject to the market fluctuations—when we wound up the whole affair he owed me 16,000l., not on the current account—Mr. Ricord will give you a better answer upon that—part of the 16,000l. was made up from the securities which I gave up, for which I took the 13,000l. cheque—I took the 13,000l. which was not paid, and delivered up the other securities, and that was the bulk of my loss.

JOHN RICORD . I am manager to Mr. Capps—I used to see the prisoner from time to time about the transactions with my principal—he never mentioned to me who the persons were for whom he was buying and selling—I knew no one but himself—I knew Mr. Warden; I had met

him about six years previously; I had never spoken to him since—this memorandum, "Handed to J.D.W. same day, J.R. is my writing—the securities there mentioned were handed over to the prisoner by me, and the 13,000l. cheque was endorsed by me and paid in to the bank—it was about half-past 11 as near as possible when I handed over the securities—about a quarter to 5 I found that the cheque had been returned—I went after Watters and met him; I told him his cheque had been returned, and asked what he had done with the securities I had given him—he said he had delivered them to his client, Mr. Warden, who had promised to provide his cheque and had failed to do so—I understood from him that Warden was missing—I had the cheque then in my possession—I took him round with me to the London and Westminster Bank to give an explanation; that is the bank to whom the cheque was paid, and who held my principal's securities—he told them much the same as he had told me—he said that he had margins with another broker, and with the aid of his friends he quite expected he would be able to put the matter right—these produced are the lists giving the particulars of those securities that were delivered up and those remainidg in our hands, which we afterwards sold.

Cross-examined. I think the balance against him on the current account at the end of September was about 3,000l.; that was met by him by his cheque in the usual form—balances had been met before from time to time—small amounts of stock were frequently bought and paid for—the 3,000l. would be paid to me on settling day, the 27th or 29th—on 1st October I paid in this cheque of 13,000l. to the London and Westminster—I heard of its return rather late, about a quarter to 5, and I immediately saw Mr. Watters—he then told me he had been to the River Plate Bank and had there seen two of the directors; that one was a tall military-looking gentleman—I can hardly say now what he told me; he was very agitated and excited—I understood that he had tried to get back the securities which he had got from me—next morning I received a substantial sum of money from him; I think part of it was 1,400l. in bank notes, and later on his own cheque for 500l. or 700l., making roughly the 2,000l. which Mr. Capps has mentioned—the cheque was duly honoured—he professed himself hopeful of being able to arrange the whole matter without the brokers suffering much loss—I quite believe he was trying to arrange it—I saw him from time to time during the few days after—he was arrested a week or fortnight after I think—I understood that he went to Ireland purposely to see his friends, and do everything he could in the interests of the brokers.

Re-examined. I mean he was trying to get money from his friends, and to sell the securities he had from other brokers—an account was summed up every fortnight and a balance was struck, which had to be paid or received by the broker: that is the balance I spoke of; the whole account would be closed, but there would still be a balance.

By the COURT. He more often had to pay than to receive—the fortnightly settlement generally speaking ended in loss to him.

DOUGLAS HUNT . I am a stockbroker, of Telegraph Street, in the name of M.F. Miller and Co.—Mr. Miller is the senior partner—I have known Watters about six months—his transactions with us were principally speculations on the Stock Exchange, what we call "time bargains"—the floating account for the last three months was about

half a million—we had bonds to bearer to the extent of 10 to 15 per cent, as cover—we always sent the securities to our bank, for which we got advances—this letter is in Watters's writing. (Dated 1st October, to Miller and Co., enclosing cheque for 10,000l. to pay off securities named in a list enclosed. Signed "J.D.W.")—this is the cheque (produced)—I endorsed it and handed it to the clerk, instructing him to pay it into the bank and get the securities—he has initialled this list—I heard the same afternoon that the cheque had come back—Watters came to our office the same day, and said that he had been to the River Plate Bank to ask them to refund the securities which had been handed to them, in order to meet his cheque; that he had seen one of the Directors and the accountant, Mr. Langton, and they refused to give him up the securities, and he had come on to tell us—I asked what he was going to do about this returned cheque—he said he was not able to make any definite proposal at once, he did not know how he stood—I asked if I could meet him anywhere, and he arranged a meeting at the Craven Hotel in the Strand between 9 and 10 o'clock that night—I met him there with my clerk, and we went into his finances, but he could not see what he was worth, and we left the matter till the next day, when he paid us about 1,700l. almost the first thing in the morning, and appeared to be trying to raise the balance he owed us—he gave me a verbal order to sell, I insisted on that at once—I had given up his securities, but I had a balance—this is a list of the shares I sold in pursuance of the verbal order to reimburse us in respect of the 10,000l. cheque—at the time I returned the other securities to him and got his cheque we had these in our possession—he still owes us between 17,000l. and 18,000l.—the securities were sold by the brokers for the Union Bank of London; we got for them about 7, 750l., but we could not touch the 7,000l. because that was the loan the Union Bank had advanced to us—in that transtransaction action we gave, bought, and sold notes—we knew no one else in the—I knew Mr. Warden personally, but not in connection with this transaction, I had no notion that he had anything to do with it—I have a copy here of the account of the securities in our books.

Cross-examined by MR. CLARKE. I once asked Mr. Watters for the names of his clients; that was the middle of June; he said he was not able to give them up, but I could be satisfied that things were all right, it would be a breach of trust—it is not usual to do so on the Stock Exchange—certain securities were deposited with me, and afterwards exchanged—5,000l. Egyptian Preference were deposited with us on June 29 and 7,000l. on June 15, and they were returned to Watters on 12th July—on 15th July we received 10,000l. Spanish 5 per cents., which we handed back on 19th September—there is nothing unusual in the exchange of securities—on 1st October Watters communicated with my clerk about the cheque being returned, but I did not see him till the evening, when he said that Warden had disappeared—he told me that when he went to the River Plate Bank that afternoon one of the gentlemen there said that he had better sell what securities he had out and cover himself—he mentioned a cheque for 1,500l. which he hoped to receive from Mr. McMahon, and to hand it to Mr. Simon to cover his losses—I think that was the next day—he said that that would stop in Mr. McMahon's hands, he would not pay it over—Watters gave me just under 2,000l. in cash on October 1—he gave me a cheque on Tuesday,

the 2nd, for about 1,700l., and that night or next morning a cheque for 200l. or 300l.—I believe that was his own cheque—it was on the London and Yorkshire Bank, and was paid—there was nothing extraordinary under the circumstances in cheques for 14,000l. and 15,000l. being given—it would not be understood that that money was in the bank—we had some transactions with Mr. Warden, direct speculations of his, and also on behalf of his friends—in March, 1883, I received 900l. from Mr. Warden by cheque on the London and Yorkshire Bank, but I do not know who it was drawn by—I know now that Mr. Walters banked there—I received 300l. from Mr. Warden on 29th June, but whether by draft or bank-notes I am unable to say—Mr. Warden paid me 130l. on 27th April, 1883, and on 15th June 100l.—I believe all those sums were paid on account of differences on his account, but I am not sure.

Re-examined. If a cheque for 15,000l. is given when there is only 70l. at the bank it is given presumably against another cheque received from another quarter; it would be drawn in expectation of having funds to meet it—cheques are often drawn for a larger sum than there is in the bank because there is virtually a certainty of their being met in other quarters—suppose I had to pay 10,000l., I should give my cheque although I only had 100l., I should take the stock and deliver it to a broker or jobber who would give me another cheque which would make me safe.

By the COURT. If he did not, I should have given a worthless piece of paper—it is a representation that when it is presented at the bank there will be funds to meet it and that it will be paid—if a man gives a cheque for 29.000l. and has no good reason to believe that he wonld have it, that would be obtaining money by false pretences: consequently, when I got this cheque for 10,000l. I expected that it would be met—I generally pay in in the afternoon, but if I had chosen to pay it in earlier I should expect it to be met—it would be credited to me by the end of banking hours—cheques have to be cleared every night—the bank would pay a cheque when presented, but they would expect their customer to pay in sufficient money to meet it during the day—according to my notion, if a man gives a crossed cheque that means a day's credit; if he gives me a cheque for 10,000l. at 11 a.m., he has till 4 p.m. to find the 10,000l.—if I had thought it was just a chance whether he met it or not I would not have taken it, but I thought he would be sure to meet it—I thought he had got the money or could get it—I did not think he personally, but his clients, had got the money to meet it or securities equivalent to it—I did give him credit when I took the cheque—I believed he would be able to meet it, and that if he had not got the money or the securities in his pocket he knew where to get them and was quite sure of it.

WILLIAM STANHOPE ILLINGWORTH . I am Mr. Hunt's clerk—this cheque for 10,000l. was paid into the Union Bank about 11 a.m. on 1st October, and about 4.40 Mr. Watters came to our office and said he was very distressed to know that his cheque would not be honoured that day—I asked him whether he referred to the 10,000l. cheque he had given us—he said "Yes"—I asked him if it was a permanent difficulty or only temporary—he said he was afraid the case was bad, the greater part of his account had been opened for the manager of the River Plate Bank, who had absconded and had not made the necessary arrangements for him to meet his cheque which he understood he would meet, and he was then going to the River Plate Bank to see if anything could be done about it

—he came again about 5.30, saw Mr. Seriven and myself, and said that he had seen a Director and the accountant and had not been able to make any arrangement; but they advised him to sell the further security which he had got loans against, so as to recoup himself—he said nothing about what Warden had done with what he had given to him—he said that on the next day or the day after Warden handed back to the River Plate Bank the securities which Watters had handed to him—I asked him when Warden went away—he said that he came to his office about a quarter to 2 o'clock and told him there was some difficulty with the bank; he said that his account was wrong—I don't know what sums he owed, but he said that he was a ruined man and was going away—he said that Warden used to meet the differences by raising loans on securities—I said to Watters in the afternoon or at the meeting in the evening at the Craven Hotel "It seems a large account you have had open with Mr. Warden"—he said" I always considered Mr. Warden to be a man of considerable means."

Cross-examined. I saw Watters once every day, and perhaps more, with respect to the arrangements he was trying to make to meet his liabilities—he told me on the Monday evening that he had paid one visit to the bank, and that he had arranged to go there again the next morning, and had offered to give the Directors all the information he could—I understand he went to Ireland some days afterwards, on the Friday or Saturday—I knew he was going—he said he was going there to see his brother, and that he had written to the directors to tell them he was going—my firm have had transactions with Warden, and he deposited securities for a small amount at the end of 1880 or the beginning of 1881—there is a caution to stockbrokers against dealing with clerks; it does not say "bankers" or "employes"—I did not look upon Mr. Warden as being in that category—his position as manager of this bank was one of substance and some importance.

Re-examined. I have not got the Stock Exchange rules with me, but the committee caution members against dealing with clerks in public or private establishments, and members transgressing that rule are liable to be dealt with by the Committee as they shall see fit, but there is no penalty—I should say it is only a question of amount—we are cautioned against dealing with clerks without the consent of their principals, but in the case of a bank manager he is almost the head, there is no principal, he is the person one would always see on any business. The two documents (24 and 28) are initialled by me, that means that they are correct; this other is initialled by Mr. Challoner, a clerk, who is not here.

JAMES ALEXANDER HAMILTON . I am acting secretary of the London and Yorkshire Bank, and have been there seven years—Watters was there when I joined the bank; he left at the beginning of 1881, I think—I believe he was there over seven years—I believe he was conversant with banking business—we advance money on the deposit of securities, and we have audits, on which the securities on money lent have to be produced—we have advanced money to Watters at times, and the amount in this list (produced) is 11,083l.—these are the securities we held; the third column shows the date when we received them—they were subsequently sold, and the list shows that the amount realised was 13, 647l. 6s. 1d.—on October 1 Watters came to the bank before 12 o'clock and exchanged some securities—I gave him certain bonds, and I have no doubt that this

list is correct, but it is not initialled by me—he came again on October 3, and his first transaction that morning was to pay off all loans by a cheque on ourselves; we had funds to meet it—this cheque is in Watters's writing, but it is not the one to which I referred in connection with the loan of 800l. (Read: "London and Yorkshire Bank, Oct. 1, 1883. Pay self or bearer 200l. J.B. Watters.) This writing at the back is mine, it is the number of the ten 20l. notes given in payment—the securities remaining in our possession were sold as stated in this list (produced).

Cross-examined. When we take customers' securities they are put into strong boxes, which have two different locks, and two officers have the keys, neither key being sufficient to open the box without the other, so that both officers must be present when the box is opened—the general manager holds one key and I or another person the other, and when either goes away for a holiday or is ill other officers take charge of the keys—one key may be handed to a third officer for half a day without the securities being counted, but when they go for a holiday they are counted—we keep the boxes at the Union Bank of London and a letter of authorisation to the Union Bank is wanted to get at them, and the two officials are both present when any securities are taken out, and having taken them out they lock the box and restore it to the Union Bank—we audit the securities half yearly at our bank—the boxes are brought there and opened in the auditors' presence and the securities checked—we cut off coupons for customers when they become due and credit them to their account.

GEORGE WELLS . I am clerk to Fuller, Banbury, Nix, and Co., bankers, 77, Lombard Street—Watters had an account there—his balance at closing time on Saturday, 29th September, and at the opening of the bank on Monday morning, was 73l. 6s. 8d.; during Monday 18l. 15s. and 30l. was drawn out, reducing the balance by that amount, and on the 4th there was another cheque of 5l., leaving a balance in his favour of 19l. 11s. 8d., which we have rendered over to the receiver in bankruptcy—we took good care that he should not overdraw.

JOHN AINGER . I am a member of the Stock Exchange, at 4, Drapers' Gardens—on 27th September I deposited with the London and River Plate Bank 10,000 Egyptian Preference against a loan, having previously deposited other securities, of which this (produced) is a list, 15,000 State Domain, 5,000 State Domain, 1,700 Pennsylvanian, and 50,000 Argentine Hard Dollar Bonds—this list contains the numbers and particulars of the bonds which are now missing—the usual brokerage to a customer outside the Stock Exchange is one-eighth, and a half per cent. on the money value of all registered stock; it is one-eighth on speculative concerns; business done for an outside broker is matter of arrangement, but I should say it is one-sixteenth.

GEORGE WARDEN (the Prisoner). I was secretary and manager of the London and River Plate Bank for a period of nearly twenty years—about the middle of last year I employed Mr. Watters to obtain a loan for me of about 4,000l.—it was to pay off a loss I made with him in speculations on the Stock Exchange—in order to do that I obtained from the strong room of the bank securities that had been deposited there—towards the end of December or the beginning of January he spoke to me about his own losses—he told me he had made a large loss of about 6,000l. by his own speculations, and that his failure must follow unless he was assisted

—after a good deal of conversation, he finally induced me to cover his own loss as well as my own, to save exposure of himself, by taking further amounts of bonds—he represented to me at the same time that the loans, as far as he was concerned, would only be temporary—that he was on terms for a loan through his brother, a solicitor in Dublin, for 2,000l., and another loan through solicitors in London for 1,500l.—I wrote to the brother in Dublin—this is the letter I wrote, after considerable delay—it is dated the 3rd of March, 1883—there was a good deal of delay, and I wrote urging that this 2,000l. loan should be completed—I found the stock to raise the 6,000l.—I had a reply to this letter stating that his brother already owed him money, and he had no idea of increasing the debt—both loans fell through and I was saddled with the whole affair—I received accounts up to that time as far as I remember, and I received contract notes during the year 1882, and I was debited with commission in the ordinary way—after that time he told me that he had stopped all commission, only charging what he had to pay himself—I learned from him every fortnight the results of these speculations—I got no written account from that time—before settling day I learned whether more cover was required, and as it was required I provided it from the same source, the bank—sometimes he called at the bank, and I gave him securities in my own room; sometimes I went to his office with them, according to arrangement—it was about four minutes' walk from the bank—about April or May this year I urgently appealed to him to desist, and represented to him then that there was 40,000l. of the bank stock in his hands—he refused to do so, assuring me of the great credit he was in, and the number of brokers he was able to employ—I made no further appeal, I went as far as I thought I could in doing so, and went no further, and the thing went on—on several occasions he asked me if I could get certain stock—sometimes I did get those that were more favourable than others, if it was possible—part of the stock I took was deposited by customers for safe custody—they were kept sometimes in the interior safe, and sometimes in the strong box—they were done up in parcels, tied with string, and labelled with the customer's name—when I took the securities I took the labels off, sometimes in my own room and sometimes in Watters's office, and preserved them, waiting the return of the stock for its redemption—this list (produced) contains nearly all the names of the customers, with one or two exceptions—the total value is not summed up here, but I identify them all as having been taken by me from the strong room and handed to Watters—the annual audit took place on the first of October—we had previously agreed to arrange for the production of all the stock that was required for that day for the use of the auditors—I saw him on Saturday, 29th September, and he then told me that he had made all his arrangements for Monday—I gave him a list of what would be required to be brought in—he was to obtain the stock as early as possible in the morning, against his cheques—I saw him on the Monday morning about half-past 10, and he then told me that he was sure of all the brokers giving up the stock against cheques, with the exception of one man that he was rather afraid about—during the conversation he told me that if any hitch occurred he would give himself up—I left him in Throgmorton Street and went back to the bank, reaching there shortly before 11 o'clock—in the stock in the bank there was 30,000 Egyptian Preference Stock—up to the 1st October I had not

taken any of that—this list marked G was prepared to lay before the auditors for the purpose of their going through the audit—I myself laid it before them—the 30,000 is ticked by the auditors—that was produced and shown to them—after it was ticked Watters came in in the course of the forenoon, after 12 o'clock—he had brought some lots of stock into the bank—he said he found hesitation on the part of the brokers to give more up—I cannot tell what it was he brought—he brought some small lots, as a rule, not one lot and then another, but part of each—the 30,000 was safe in the bank at that time, and I believe also 10,000 Egyptian Preference Stock in the name of Mr. Ainger—the others he brought in portions from time to time—this is Watters's handwriting—it contains a list of what he did bring in—it is addressed to Mr. Langton, the accountant to the bank (Read: "2nd October, 1883. The securities I handed to Mr. Warden yesterday, and for which I received no equivalent, were 5,000 Egyptian Preference, 1,000 Domain, 60,000 Suez, 300 Pennsylvanians, 2,400 New South Wales, 2,000 Egyptian Preference, and 9,000 Unified")—at the same time he brought in more than these—that is a portion for which he said he received no equivalent—it is accurate so far as it goes, but it is not complete—he asked me to give him something that would induce the brokers to give up the other stock, and I gave him a portion of the stock that was counted and passed by the auditors—that was the Egyptian Preference—I believe at that time it was 25,000l. worth, but I was afterwards told I had given him 27,000l.—the audit went on from 12 until after 1 o'clock—at that time they had passed and ticked all that was in my possession to show them—finding that Watters failed to complete the stock necessary, I had no alternative but to leave the bank—I went to his office about half-past 1 o'clock—I told him I was a ruined man—he had a small portion of stock in his hand at the time, and said there was still some that he could not get—I told him it was too late, it was no use attempting further—the conversation only lasted a few seconds—I asked him his intention—his words were "I have no heart to go abroad; I shall give myself up"—he gave me 200l. in notes, and I went from his office to Havre—I turned part of the notes into French money at a money-changer's in London a few minutes afterwards, and left for the Continent—I was only a few days in Havre—I was away a week altogether at Paris and Havre—I came back on Saturday, 6th October, and wrote to the bank stating where I was, and that I was ready to give myself up—towards the last few days of September I asked Watters to give me some money of my sister's which I had lost—it was rather more than 1,900l.—he got the 1,900l. from his banking account for me, and said that was all he could spare at the time—that was about Friday or Saturday, I am not sure which—the money was to be sent in a draft on Scotland, not sent to my sister's, to send on their account—he left me at the door of one of the banks to purchase the draft—this draft (produced) is Watters's writing. (This was a draft slip of the Bank of Scotland dated 29th September, 1883, requesting a draft for 1,900l., in favour of W.E. and A.J. Howe, payable at Glasgow, by W. Hamilton, Gresham House.) I know no such person as Hamilton—I did not select that name that I am aware of; I have no recollection of doing so—I was not in the bank with him—this is the draft he gave me; I sent it down to my sister's solicitors—to the best of my memory this list produced is a correct list of the securities abstracted from the bank by me—there are one or two

omissions—there are one or two things here which did not pass through my hands—there are 100 shares here of the London and River Plate Bank in the name of Mr. Weldon—I know nothing whatever of those—there are 125 of the Central Iroquois Rail way shares in the name of Mr. Mandeville—I know nothing whatever of those—the rest are correct as far as I know—I never told Watters that I was acting for a syndicate of River Plate circles—I never made such a statement in my life.

Cross-examined. No statement whatever of that kind was made by me—I never represented myself to him as acting for any one—I lived at Regent's Park—I had known Watters for about ten years; I cannot say where he was when I first made his acquaintance—I found when I returned from abroad that he was a visitor at the house of my family—I did not know what his employment was at the time—I knew him for seven years at the London and Yorkshire Bank—he has visited me both at my house and at my club—I think I had only one club; I do not remember his being in more than one—there was a South American Club five or seven years ago—I do not remember his being there; he might have been there—I was one of the members—he may have been my guest there, but I do not recollect it—he might meet there gentlemen interested in South American business matters—there were many there who were not—there were some who were connected, and in an important manner, with South American trade—I did belong to the Wanderers' Club; Watters has been there—he might have met gentlemen there friends of my own—I have no recollection of representing them as being largely interested in River Plate affairs; it was quite unnecessary—it is a thing I should never have thought of representing to him, simply as a casual guest at the time—he knew that they were River Plate business men, therefore it was unnecessary for me to tell him so—I had on one occasion what was called a River Plate party—he was present one morning—the party did not go up the river—he had breakfast with me one morning, and left after breakfast—I had a few friends who were largely interested in River Plate affairs, merchants most of them—they very seldom came to my house at all—it was quite an exceptional case—that was the only time that the party met at my house—occasionally I met them at the club and as my friends—we did not go to the Cafe Royal—I never had a supper party there that I remember—there was only one occasion that I remember of a meeting of River Plate gentlemen at my house—I never engaged in any Stock Exchange speculations on their account—I have dealt with other brokers besides Mr. Watters, two or three perhaps—one was a Mr. Miller, of the firm of Miller and Co.—that account was opened for about three years, perhaps longer—I never represented to Messrs. Miller that I was acting on behalf of myself and other persons—I represented that it was my individual speculation—that has always been the understanding—I have told them so—the transactions I have had with any other brokers have been trifling in amount, and there was no necessity for any statement of the kind, and no statement was made—I did not make any pointed statement to Mr. Miller—he never asked me questions, and I never made any statements on the subject—he understood it to be my own business as far as I could judge—I made no statement to Mr. Miller or any one else to the effect that I was acting for friends as well as myself, or that I was acting for myself alone—I made no statement at all—the question never came

up—no one asked me the question—I have not read the Stock Exchange rules as regards clerks speculating, I have heard of them—no suggestion was made to me when I began to speculate through Messrs. Miller that it was a violation of the Stock Exchange rules, that I recollect—it never occurred to my mind that it was—I paid Messrs. Miller a good many cheques from time to time—they originated the speculations themselves—in many cases they frequently opened stock in my name, and I knew nothing of it till I saw the contract on my desk—I have never thrown up one of their contracts, but I have often lost money by them—I have frequently disapproved of it—I never repudiated it; I did not like to take such a decided step—Mr. Miller was a friend of mine, and had been for several years—I have deposited securities to a small amount with him—on one occasion I took the loan of a bond from one of the customers, the bank replacing it afterwards—I took it from the bank, and deposited it with Messrs. Miller—I do not recollect that I deposited any other securities with them—I did not require to do so—I had in that year, 1880, money of my own—there were several cheques paid to Messrs. Miller which came from Watters—I do not remember a cheque of 130l., or 100l., or 300l.—I have a bank book, but those cheques did not pass through my pass-book—they were simply taken from Watters's office to Mr. Miller's office—I think I have taken cheques from Watters to Mr. Miller's on six or eight different occasions, payments that Watters was perfectly aware I had to make to Mr. Miller—the total amount of those would be about 2,100l.—I think that was part of a cheque which Watters said he gave to me—I believe one newspaper said from 6,000l. to 7,000l., and another newspaper said 67,000l.—Watters did not give me 6,000l. or 7,000l. in cheques—he gave me cheques which I passed to Messrs. Miller to the extent of about 2,100l., and he gave me cheques which I passed through another broker for 300l.—that was to Mr. Cray—I think it was only 300l. as far as I recollect—I cannot remember the same thing happening with another broker—I have seldom given Watters any cheques—I have given him cheques—it is impossible to say how many—Watters gave me 2,400l. worth of cheques, because I represented to him that I owed the money—he gave me a few cheques on other occasions, about 700l. I think altogether I identify as given to me for my own use—part of that was really money earned before the business commenced on joint account—the business succeeded to a certain extent, and it was earned by success in those speculations previous to the operations for mutual account—up to the time of the operations for mutual account the speculation resulted in a profit, which was paid by Watters's cheques—that was in the early part of the transaction, somewhere about 1881—as far as I recollect the mutual account began when the 6,000l. loan was made—that was in December, 1882, or January this year—it was previous to that letter; that letter was written afterwards as a reminder, to hasten the production of the 2,000l.—I did not hear mentioned the name of a gentleman in London, from whom he expected to get 2,000l.; he told me the 2,000l. was forthcoming from his brother—there was another loan of 1,500l. which he told me he was arranging from a firm of solicitors here—I did not hear the name.

By the COURT. The only money that I can trace as coming from his hands was his 700l.—he gave me cheques to the extent of 2,400l.—part of what he gave me was earned by success in speculation, on the previous operations—that was part of that 700l.—the 2,400l. was given to me by

him to pay off debts that he knew were owing to other brokers—part of the stock kept open with these brokers was to get information and to check his own information—he was perfectly aware that the stock was open—he knew that I had these speculations with other brokers, and wanted to keep my speculations going in order that he might get information—the 700l. was besides the 2,400l., over and above that—I think only part of that was earned in speculations; he really never gave me any money at all, he simply gave me what he could spare out of his own banking account—his bank account was furnished from loans on stock—he never gave me any money that was not found for him first—I stole it from the bank first, and he gave me back part of what I had given to him.

By MR. CLARKE. None of the money which I received from him came with any account of what I had done, except as I said before at the very earlier part of the transactions in the early part of 1881 and 1882, when I did receive accounts—he rendered me accounts during 1881 and 1882—I don't say that all I did with Miller was for the purpose of checking his information, but part of it was—the 900l. to begin with was sent to pay a debt to Miller and Co. about six months before this mutual operation took place—my account with Miller had been opened for a considerable time before that—latterly the object of that account was to check his information of stock, and especially in Brighton stock—I frequently got information from Miller which Watters as a large operator could not get—I am certain that Miller and Co. frequently told me things that they never told to him—that was in some respects the object of my keeping open the accounts with Miller, that I should have information with regard to particular stock—I have given that information to Watters on several occasions to use in his operations—that was not altogether the object of it; it was one of the objects—I know Mr. Parish; he is a gentleman in a very important position in Buenos Ayres matters; he is a great friend of mine—I am not aware that Mr. Watters has met me with him—I don't think Mr. Parish has been with, me to my club; I don't think Watters has been invited there to meet him—Mr. Parish has called at the club; he is not a frequenter of the club—I have mentioned Mr. Parish to Mr. Watters several times—he has heard his name mentioned at my sister's house, but that was not with reference to business matters that I am aware of—during the years 1881 and 1882 contract notes were supplied to me by Mr. Watters; they do not exist now—all papers that I had in connection with this affair I destroyed before I left London—on the morning that I left I destroyed the little that was left; I have not kept anything of consequence; very few papers were left that day, only a few memoranda of stock that I had in his hands; they were in my own writing—they were a list of securities which I had taken from the bank and handed to him—it was my habit to keep a list of the securities, and it was from them that I was able to prepare the list of the securities which were wanted on the Monday—I didn't go over the state of my account with him every fortnight; unfortunately I had no account with him; there was no stated period for doing it—I used to see him very frequently—that process was not done so often as once a fortnight—I occasionally took him a corrected list from time to time and agreed it with him—he sometimes passed me a memorandum stating that he would require a certain amount of stock that settling day

—that did not show what the state of the account would be; he simply mentioned the amount of money he had to cover—I am sorry to say that I became aware that the account was going rapidly to the worst—in the commencement of this year he supplied me with a small green book, which he kept up for about ten days—I tore out the few pages which were used when I left London, and I gave the book to my solicitor—this is the book (produced)—it was only kept up for about ten days—there is nothing in it now—I destroyed the contents when I did the other papers—I did not at my first examination declare that no such book had ever been supplied to me—I believe I first mentioned it on my first examination after it had been found at the bank; no, it was not found there, it was found there on my application—I was told that Watters's solicitor had written to my solicitor to ask for the production of the books—I believe that was after the first hearing at Guildhall—I at once sent to the bank to look for it, and it was found—I knew that I had destroyed everything that was written in it or I should not have left it—I first began to take securities from the bank about the month of June—I think it was 1882, in connection with this affair—I have already said that I took the loan of a bond once before that—I think that was in 1880, but I am not very sure, or 1881—from 1880 to 1882 I don't think I required anything that I am aware of—I had a key of the strong box; I could not with that key alone open the box—one of the directors had a key—the outer door of the strong room had two keys, one in the possession of the accountant and one in my own, and the strong box had two keys, which the director and myself had—it would not require the concurrence of the three to get to the strong box—the outer door of the strong room opened by my own key and the accountant's—when he was not there I generally used my own and his—it was necessary at one time to have a double custody for the door of the strong room, but it became unnecessary because the safe was inside—the securities were kept in the strong room simply, and then the concurrence of the two keys were required, but of late, for additional safety, they had been put in the strong box, and therefore the same protection with regard to the strong room was not necessary—I could lend the accountant my key and he could lend me his—he took it when he required it to go down for his cash in the morning—he didn't ask me for it; he took it; the key was in the drawer in one of the safes in my room, an open drawer—he always took it; I made no objection; it was the custom, and I sometimes took his key in the same way, and he made no objection—he generally kept his key hanging up in his desk—he could go and take mine, and I could take his—the directors must have been aware of that fact, because they saw me open the strong room in their presence nearly every day—the directors would see me with the two keys—after the introduction of the strong box the securities were always put in the strong box or in the safe; there was also a safe inside—to get at either of these it required the concurrence of two people, myself and the director on duty—when securities were brought into the bank it was the duty of the security clerk to enter them—if a customer wanted a loan it was generally authorised in consultation with the bank committee—when it was authorised I should have to give instructions that the money should be paid, and then, the securities being deposited, they would be handed over to the security clerk for him to enter, tie them up, and mark them with the customer's name—his duty then was

to hand them over to myself, and the director and I should place them in the strong box or the safe, as the case might be—that would be done by the two of us together—we should then both lock the strong box or safe—when securities were wanted to be taken out, I and the director went down, opened the strong box or safe, and took them out, we should both take notice what securities were there, and they would be handed back to the customer who called for them—the security clerk would make a note of the fact of their return before they were returned—that was the regular practice of the bank—the directors took it in turns to be on duty a fortnight each—he would be in attendance at 11 o'clock in the morning until the business he had to conduct was over—that would be an hour or half an hour—he would put his key in his pocket and take it away with him—at the end of the fortnight he would hand his key across the board table to the director whose duty it was to take it the next fortnight. Q. How did you manage to steal these securities? A. I have already described the method at Guildhall; I can only repeat it here. On some occasions securities were left out for the detachment of the coupon by one director, and they were not returned; they would go to Watters—it would depend on the bundle of coupons how long it would take to detach them; it might take the best part of an afternoon—if they were bonds belonging to a customer they would be given to the security clerk to detach the coupons; if they were coupons upon which money had been lent, the borrower of the money would send one oft his clerks to cut off the coupons—the directors would take out the securities, but not see as to their return; in many instances he would go off duty next day—before the 1st October I became convinced that the amount of my liabilities was far larger than I should be able to meet—that was my feeling, and had been so for a long time—from time to time I told Mr. Watters that I believed that the speculations, quite apart from other questions, would turn out disastrous—I gave him my opinion on several occasions that he was playing a hopeless game altogether—he used sanguine expressions of belief in my success—if I had been absolutely convinced beyond all possiblity of hope I should not have remained in London to go through the audit—I must have had some lingering opinion that there must be a way out, or I should not have remained under any circumstances—I did not tell him that I could not meet these liabilities, and that I must try and save something out of the wreck for my sisters—I said that before attempting the audit I would like to make the money secure—I have no recollection of giving him the name of Hamilton—I think I could swear that I did not—I might have done anything at the moment, but I do not remember now—the 1,900l. was sent to the person indicated in Scotland—the 200l. was given me on the 1st October about half-past 1 o'clock in the day.

Re-examined. I did not interfere with the details of the 1,900l. in any way—I did not get the cheque-cashed, or get the bank-notes changed at the bank—Watters gave me the draft—I did not go into the bank with it—it was the same name by which I sent the draft to Scotland on the Saturday—there was nobody in the bank conversant with this theft that I was committing.

By MR. CLARKE. I asked Watters on the 1st October to look after my sisters, or to see to my sisters, understanding that he would go that night and break my departure to them, and render them any assistance

they required, but which I found he had never done—I wrote a letter to a relation of mine in Scotland on the 1st October, at midnight, and I mentioned Mr. Watters as one of the persons who would be useful in helping my sisters—I am not sure which letter it was in, but it was in one of those letters which I mentioned, the one of the 1st October or another of the 5th October—I told this relation of mine that Mr. Watters had informed me that he was going to give himself up on that occasion, but I did not mention him as one of the persons who would help to take care of my sisters—I appended his name to a will which I see in that gentleman's hands, but not with reference to taking care of my sisters—this (produced) was the memorandum—I wrote it for the guidance of my family about two months before I left—the last paragraph is headed "Assistance"—among the names there I have put Watters's name, not for advice, but for assistance, for money which he owed them, having broken up their home.

By MR. POLAND. I wrote this memorandum two or three months before I left London—I had it in my desk, in case anything abruptly should occur, to further supplement the letter to one of these relations, which letter I believe is in Court now—I gave it to my solicitor, in which I detailed the whole affair—I posted it on the 1st October, giving advice as to how they should proceed—to the best of my belief this (produced) is in Watters's handwriting (This was a bank-note for 1,000l., No. 07690, and contained the name F.R. Watson, Thorny Hill, Thornton Heath).

WILLIAM NEALE CLARK . I am the transfer and securities clerk of the River Plate Bank—I have been so 17 or 18 years—I was under Mr. Warden—I kept the securities book—it was my duty to enter in that book the particulars of the securities deposited for safe custody by customers, and also the securities upon which advances had been made—on 30th August I find an entry of the deposit of 30,000 Egyptian Preference, to cover an advance of 25,000l.—I made that entry in due course, and it was initialled by one of the directors, Mr. Zimmerman—in due course they would be deposited in the strong room, and that was all I had to do with them—I knew that the audit had been appointed for Monday, 1st October, and in due course I made out this list (G) of the securities that had to be produced to the auditors—that was in the ordinary course—the audit took place that day—the last time I saw Mr. Warden at the bank was at about 20 minutes to 2 o'clock—after that Monday I saw Mr. Langton go through that list to see what securities remained in the bank, and of the 30,000 Egyptian Preference Stock only 3,000 remained—the next nine items in this list were found to be all there—the securities of Lawrence, Sons, and Gordon against a loan of 70,000l. of Mr. Ainger, 10,000 Preference, 8,000 were left, and of the 5,000 State Domain none were left; of the 1,700 Pennsylvanian shares 960 were left, and of the Argentine Hard Dollar Bonds, 50,000, 2,500 were left—this list of 15th is Mr. Langton's writing—I have checked it—it contains a list of the securities which were abstracted—it gives the name upon whose account they were deposited, the nominal value, the description of the security, the price on 2nd October, and then the value worked out—that was a list of the securities that were safe in the bank—there are two mistakes; one is Weldon of Manchester, 225l., the total is 68,282l. of the customer's securities, and 48,128l. of the securities against which advances had been made, making a total of 116, 410l.—I took no part in

the audit on that occasion—this list produced is a correct list of the details of the securities—I asked Mr. Warden if I could render any assistance at the audit, and he said no, he could do it himself—I knew on Monday that he had absented himself—on the following day I was present when his private safe in his room was opened and his drawers were opened—the key of the safe had been left—the drawers were locked—in my presence the bolts of the lock were cut, the drawers opened, and in a drawer I found the 15 labels produced—they are in his writing, most of them—it was the practice to put the customer's name upon them—a string or tape was tied round them, and then they were deposited in the strong room—these labels refer to the 15 lots of stock, the list of which has been produced.

ROBERT LANGTON . I am the accountant to the London and River Plate Bank—I know Mr. Watters merely by sight—I have seen him at the bank perhaps a year and a half ago—I was not acquainted with his place of business in Draper's Gardens at the time—I have known it since, and have been there—on 1st October I saw him at the bank at a few minutes to 11 o'clock, and again in the afternoon, about 2.30—he requested to see me—he said "I am afraid it's all up with Warden"—I said "I do not understand what you mean"—he said "He came to my office about half an hour ago, and said, 'I am a ruined man, for God's sake do what you can for my poor sisters'"—I expressed great astonishment at this, and understood him to explain that Warden had formed one of a syndicate for speculating on the Stock Exchange—he then went on to say that he was placed in an exceedingly awkward position; that he had borrowed securities on account of Mr. Warden, against which he had given his cheque for 20,000l. or so, and as the securities were not returned to him he could not meet his cheque; this would cause him to fail, he would not meet his engagements, and he wanted to know if the bank would assist him with means to pay the cheque—I of course could not enter into that, but Mr. Zimmerman, one of the directors, being in the adjoining room, I requested him to see him, which he did—I then left the room, and was not present at the interview—the next day, the 2nd October, I found a letter addressed to me at the bank from the prisoner—he called before 10 o'clock, or about 10 o'clock—I understood him to say that he had arranged his affairs the previous day, and then some suggestion was made to the following effect: that he knew where the securities to a large extent, 100,000l., were placed as a cover for loans, and that if those securities could be taken up they would realise a margin—I said I could not enter into any discussion upon that point; he must see the chairman of the bank if he had anything to say—the chairman was not there then.

Cross-examined. He said at one of the interviews that he understood that Mr. Warden was a very influential person, possessed of means—I do not remember his saying that he always understood Mr. Warden was acting for other persons—he said he was one of a syndicate—he referred to that again—I did not say that I thought this was what it would come to; that I was afraid he was plunging—I said I had been a little uneasy about Warden—I never used the word "plunging" that I remember, or that I knew he was dealing with other brokers—I had been a little uneasy as to his connections and associates, but nothing to the extent that I supposed he would abstract anything belonging to the bank—I had no evidence to believe he was speculating—about a couple of years

ago I thought perhaps he might be doing a little, just a small thing perhaps with other brokers—I say I was a little uneasy as to the class of his associates—I did not say I thought he was plunging, but that I fancied he would pull through—nothing of the kind—I do not exactly remember what I said—I think it was that I was afraid, or something to that effect—I do not know that I said anything with regard to speculations—Mr. Zimmerman was in the adjoining room at the time when I saw Mr. Watters on the 2nd.

EDWARD ZIMMERMAN . I am one of the directors of the River Plate Bank, and have been so about 10 years—I was at the bank on the 1st October—I came in after the audit—I was told that the auditors could not complete the audit—I saw the prisoner about 3 o'clock that afternoon—I did not know him previously—I asked his name, and he gave me his card—he said that he had cheques for about 20,000l., signed for Warden, which he had to meet that afternoon, and he wished to know whether the bank would do anything to assist him—I said certainly not—then he told me that he had securities of Warden to the extent of about 100,000l., at which I was surprised, and said I should like to see one of my codirectors—he said he must have an answer before 4 o'clock—I said I should endeavour to be back by that time—I then went out, and when I returned he had already been there—I did not see him again.

Cross-examined. He said that he had given cheques—he did not ask me that any security should be given to him—I have no recollection of telling him that he had better sell the securities and cover his cheque—I did not say anything about what he should do—I think he was troubled and anxious about what he should do—he did not suggest anything that I should do—I did not know what took place with Mr. Langton—that was not in my presence—I did not make any suggestion at all as to what he should do with regard to the securities in his possession—I did not say "Do what you like with them"—at least I have no recollection of saying so—it did not occur to me that the securities had been stolen from the strong box—I should have thought it impossible that such a matter as this could have been done.

By the COURT. I knew nothing of Mr. Watters before this, it was the first time I met him—he merely asked what he should do, and if the bank would help him—I gave no opinion at all about it.

GEORGE WILKINSON GRABBLE . I am chairman of the London and River Plate Bank, and have been so for the last ten years—I saw Watters at at the bank on the morning of 2nd October, about 11—I had never seen him before—he said he came to see about some securities that he had brought to the bank the day before—I said I had not been at the bank the day before, and must inquire about it—he then made mention of a cheque or cheques to the amount of 20,000l. that he had given against those securities, and that he required the bank's assistance—I said that was a very large amount, and having just heard of Mr. Warden's having absconded, and serious revelations as regards robbery of securities, I felt quite at a loss to give any distinct answer then—I then asked whether he was connected with Warden—he said there had been very large speculations, and that he supposed those speculations were on account of a kind of syndicate—I said it appeared to me altogether incomprehensible how these very large operations could have been entered into by him and Warden, and I should not give any more reply, and I asked him to be shown out—nothing more passed.

Cross-examined. I said it was incomprehensible, because Mr. Warden had no business to carry on such speculations as manager or secretary of the bank, nor had Mr. Watters any business to have such operations with him—that was my opinion, and what I meant—Watters did not offer to give me a list of the securities—I never asked for it, nor did he offer, nor did I refuse it—my legal adviser, Mr. Abrahams, may have had something from him, I don't know about that—I know that Mr. Abrahams was in communication with Mr. Watters between that time and the time he was arrested—I did not hear from Mr. Watters that he was going to Ireland in order to endeavour to get assistance—Mr. Abrahams may have shown me letters to that effect, but I did not hear it from Mr. Watters personally—there was such a letter—I never saw it after his return—there are certain actions pending against the stockbrokers in this matter—there is an action against Messrs. McMicking and Miller and Co.—I suppose there would be some allegation in the actions that Watters took the securities with a knowledge of the theft—I have not seen it; it is in the hands of our solicitors.

MICHAEL ABRAHAMS . I am a solicitor, of 8, Old Jewry, and am solicitor to the London and River Plate Bank, Limited—on 2nd October I obtained a warrant against Mr. Warden—in consequence of a communication from the directors I called at the office of the prisoner that afternoon—I gave him my name, and told him that I was solicitor for the bank; that I had obtained a warant for the arrest of Warden, and I stated that I understood he had been to the bank, and that he had securities in his possession to the value of upwards of 100,000l., which had been placed with him by Warden—he said that was so, and that he had obtained loans upon those securities, leaving a margin, and I understood him that the margin would be about 10,000l.; that would be 10 per cent—I told him that the securities were all stolen from the bank by Warden, and therefore they belonged to the bank, and from that time he must not interfere or deal with the securities, as any margin was the property of the bank—he said he had given certain securities to Warden on 1st October, for which he had given his cheques to the amount of 20,000l., which had not been paid, and that he must protect himself—he also said that he was a ruined man, as he could not meet those cheques—I told him that in my opinion he would be guilty of a criminal act, he would be an accessory after the fact if he dealt with those securities, knowing then that they were stolen—he said he was of a different opinion—I then advised him to consult a solicitor—he said that he had given the securities to Warden, as there was to be an exchange of securities, a common thing on the Stock Exchange—I asked him how he came to give so large an amount of securities without having anything in return—he said he did it because it was a common thing on the Stock Exchange—I asked him if he took any acknowledgment or receipt from Warden for the securities he gave up—he said it was not usual to take receipts—I think he said he would go and consult his friends—I saw him a short time afterwards—he then referred to Mr. Gregson as his solicitor—I said I wished to find out whether Warden had taken the securities away with him, and I asked him for the numbers of them—he had four or five telephones in his room, and he spoke to somebody through a telephone, and he said he would get me the numbers later on—I asked him for the particulars of the securities, and he then wrote the particulars in pencil on this piece of paper and handed it to me, "5

Egyptian Preference, 1,000 Domain, 60 Suez, 300 Pennsylvanian, 2,400 New South Wales, 2,000 Egyptian Preference, 9,000 Unified"—I then went to Mr. Gregson—when I came back to the prisoner he told me he could give me the numbers of some of the securities, and handed me this paper (produced)—he said he had got them from the brokers who had the securities; he did not say who they were; I did not know the names of the brokers then—these pencil marks were not on the paper at that time, they have been added since at the bank—this list contains the numbers of the 5,000 Egyptian Preference, 1,000 Domain, and 60 Suez—there is an action against Mr. McMicking to recover a surplus in his hands, that surplus being claimed also by Miller and Co. and Symons; I attended the order for the amount to be paid into Court, and they had about 1,500l., the difference between the advances and the value of the securities; besides that there was a balance of 6,500l., which was the loss on Mr. McMicking's account—he claimed the right to deduct that amount from the margin—that was one of the questions in the action—the margin was about 8,000l.

Cross-examined. I don't think that the allegations in the action are that on 4th October, at the time Watters, Miller and Co., and Symons and Co. took the assignment of the securities they knew they had been stolen—it is alleged that at the time they took the securities they took them with notice that they had been stolen—after the date I have mentioned I had communicated with Watters's solicitor from time to time—I had several interviews with Mr. Gregson—every information I required was not given me—I asked for a good deal of information about the dealings, and about the numbers and particulars of the bonds, and I did not get it; I have never got it—I asked for the numbers of the securities which had come back to Warden on 1st October; that was not given me—I asked Watters some questions that he refused to answer—I asked him some questions about his transactions and he said "You had better see my solicitor"—I began questioning him about what his dealings were with Warden; that was on the first interview—he did not then mention the name of his solicitor; he had not chosen his solicitor; he mentioned one or two names which I forget, but he had not determined what solicitor he should employ; I advised him to consult a solicitor when I spoke about the criminality of his acts.

FREDERICK HARRY WHITE . I am a clerk in the Union Bank—Watters had no account there—on 29th September this cheque for 1,400l., drawn by Watters on the London and Yorkshire Bank, was presented for payment across the counter—we are agents for the London and Yorkshire Bank—in exchange for that cheque was given a 1,000l. note, No. 07690, dated 1st December, 1882; a 300l. note, No. 91925, 1st February, 1882; and a 100l. note, No. 18530, 16th April, 1883—the 1,000l. note has been passed through the bank and cancelled.

WILLIAM EDWARD SALTEAU . I am a cashier at the Bank of England—on 29th September, 1883, some person presented some bank notes to be changed for other notes—I do not know who it was—among them was a 1,000l. bank note, No. 07690, with the name of Watson on it; I think that was written in the office; I also changed the 300l. note, No. 91925, for smaller notes; I gave altogether eighteen 100l. notes, seventeen

of them are here, one note I did not issue, it was afterwards paid in and cancelled.

THOMAS CARMICHAEL . I am the acting cashier of the Bank of Scotland, Lothbury—on 29th September this slip was filled up by some person at our bank on one of our forms; it is initialled by me; it is for 1,900l., and I got l,900l. in 100l. notes—I gave this draft to the person who filled up this memorandum.

HENRY PARGETER . I am clerk to Fuller, Banbury, and Co.—on 29th September I cashed this cheque of Mr. Watters's for 500l., and gave for it two notes of 200l. and 300l.—the cheque is payable to Mr. Cook—I do not know who Mr. Cook is.

HENRY ALFRED STACEY . I am an officer of the Court of Bankruptcy—I produce the proceedings in the liquidation of J.D. Watters—Mr. Hawes is the receiver.

ROBERT TYNDAL HAWES . I am a chartered accountant, of 76, Coleman Street—I am the receiver in the liquidation of John Davis Watters—I have all the proceedings, papers, and books here—his debts amount to 43,563l.; that was the first list; of that 33,000l. odd is owing to Messrs. Miller, and Messrs. Symons, stockbrokers—the total assets are about 300l. or 400l.—I have looked through most of the books; there is no book called a securities book; there is no book containing the particulars of the securities which he received—there are contract books for the broker to make out contracts for stock bought and sold, with counterfoils—there are entries of accounts with Messrs. McMicking, Symons, Miller, and Allen, purchases and sales—I find counterfoils of contracts relating to dealings with Warden; the last one in the bought contract book is dated 14th June last, and the last sold 24th May last—in the ledger I find an account called "George Warden's account"—I find there a loan of 4,100l. placed to his credit on 28th June, 1882—the account begins in May, 1881, and goes down to October, 1883—I have made this abstract of the account, it is correct—there is also an account headed "General account"—this is a correct abstract of that account—it begins July, 1882, and ends October 12,1883, the total amount of purchases is 4,742, 709l.—the profit is 21, 527l., losses 129, 492l., making a balance of 107,965l. loss—these are taken out fortnight by fortnight—on 14th December there is a balance of 6, 249l. loss on the general account—there is also an account in the ledger with Mr. A. Merriman, according to which it shows a profit of 9, 518l. odd on 31st May, 1883—I find a profit balance carried into the general account on May 9 of 10,000l. odd, and 7,000l. on 30th May—on 31st May the 9, 518l. is transferred to the general account—from February 12,1883, to 6th September 800,000l. appears as the dealings on Merriman's account—I also find an account in the ledger of a Mr. H. Sachs; he was Mr. Watters's clerk—I find in his account a profit balance of 1, 513l. in July, and that is brought into the general account—Sachs's account of dealings from February 12 to July 7 is nearly 700,000l.—I also find an account in the ledger under the initials "J.D.W.," Watters's initials, and a profit balance of 1, 322l. 13s. 4d. is also brought into the general account on 31st May—there are two or three other small matters, the profit of which is brought into the general account, with the names of Cook, Woods, Hutton, and Strange—there are no accounts of loans from brokers—I find generally that a commission of 1-16th paid to brokers on the Stock Exchange is charged against the

general account, not in all cases—I do not always find 1-16th charged as against the general account; there are many instances of it in the earlier part of the account—in the accounts with McMicking, Allen, and others there is no mention of the securities.

Cross-examined. It would be easy to calculate 1-16th commission at any time when the account was made up—the 10,000l. of Merriman's comes into the June account—the settlement days are about once a fortnight, about the middle and end of the month—the transfer from Merriman's account was on 31st May; it would come into the settlement of 13th June, not the settlement of 27th June—that settlement shows a profit of 10,600l.—these books with Mr. Merriman's account are not in Watters's handwriting.

By the COURT. I am familiar with the kind of books that stockbrokers keep—I should expect a security book to be kept—I should expect to find it in the purchase and sales of general stock, that is a stockbroker's book—I cannot of my own knowledge say what is the meaning of "General account"—I have never seen an account like that before in the ordinary way of business—I suppose that the object of all accounts is to show the account as it stands between the persons who are debtors and creditors—in the business of a stockbroker the accounts I should expect to find would be accounts between himself and his different customers—I never saw any accounts like this before; I don't know what it means on the face of it—the face of the accounts show that Merriman had speculated in stock and made a profit of 10,000l.

ARTHUR PRESTON MERRIMAN . I am a solicitor, of 90, Cannon Street, City—Watters was introduced to me about 16 months ago—he has done a few small matters of business for me on the Stock Exchange, very trifling indeed—I paid him the brokerage through a gentleman who was in his office; I did not know him at all in the matter—the amount altogether was about 20l. or 30l.—I know nothing whatever of any transaction resulting in a profit of 9,518l.—this account is headed "A. Merriman"—I know nothing whatever of it, I had no dealing of that kind.

The Prisoner's Statement before the Magistrate. "I am as innocent of any criminal connection with this matter as the directors of the River Plate Bank themselves. I always looked upon Mr. Warden as a man of unimpeachable integrity, and he informed me emphatically over and over again that he was the centre of River Plate circles, that he was acknowledged so, and that he had a large and influential connection. He asked me to open separate accounts for his own speculations and those of his friends. I supplied him at the close of the day with memoranda of those transactions, and with full accounts at the close of each settling day. I gave him cheques from time to time on account of surplusage of sales, and loans of stock to the extent of 6,000l. or 7,000l., including the 1,900l. on 29th September and the 200l. Warden's statement as to the conversation he had with me with reference to the settling of these securities, as to the audit, and as to the getting of the 200l. to go away with, are absolutely false. The 200l. I gave him I drew at his request, as I had done on other occasions when he asked me for cash. I gave him this 200l. at 12 or 12.30 on 1st October, certainly not later than 12.30, before I had any knowledge of anything being wrong, that is, before he absconded. From my banking experience of 20 years I should have deemed it impossible

for an officer of a bank to abstract securities even to the amount of 20,000l.

GUILTY .— Twelve Years' Penal Servitude.

OLD COURT.—Wednesday and Thursday, November 28th and 29th, 1883.

Before Mr. Recorder.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-73
VerdictsNot Guilty > no evidence; Not Guilty > no evidence

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73. JAMES STRANGE , Unlawfully conspiring with John William Cantle to defraud the Army and Navy Co-operative Company, Limited.


JAMES RAINEY . I am a cashier at the London and County Bank, Lambeth branch—the prisoner had an account there during 1882 and part of 1883—I produce a copy of his account—on 30th November, 1882, I find an entry of cash 40l. paid in—it was paid in coin—on 29th January, 1883, I find a payment of 90l. in a 50l. note, No. 16296, and 40l. in cash—on 2nd February there is an entry of 50l. paid in in money—on 12th December, 1882, I find an entry of the withdrawal of 250l. in the name of Skelton, in 25 10l. notes, Nos. 45283 to 45300, 66051 to 66057—on 26th January I find a payment of 30l. to Brazier—on 30th of the same month I find a payment to Brazier of 100l.—that 100l. was paid in 10 10l. notes, Nos. 13399 to 13400, and 24751 to 24758—on 5th February there appears a payment to Cantle of 25l., and a further payment to him of 2l. on 7th February.

Cross-examined. I have not got his account from the commencement, only from January 1st, 1882—: this is his pass-book—the account was opened on 2nd August, 1879, with a payment in of 140l.—455l. was paid in on 8th September, 1882—I don't know that that was provided by his relatives on his marriage—the prosecution have not made any inquiries of me about that sum—I find several payments out to Skelton—I have had no information as to the amount that came to Strange from his wife—I had no conversation with him about his private affairs—I was not intimate with him.

JOHN BOLTON . I am assistant manager at the National Penny Bank, Victoria Street—on 13th December last the prisoner opened an account by depositing 245l. in 24 10l. notes and one 5l. note—on 26th January, 1883, 150l. was withdrawn in two bank notes, one of 100l., No. 10935, and one of 50l., No. 16296—three payments of 10l. each in gold were made to the prisoner, on 14th February, 1st May, and 23rd June, and another of 10l. on 18th August, leaving a balance to his credit of 45l.

Cross-examined. A duplicate pass-book was produced at the police-court, the original being lost—we allow 3 per cent. per annum on complete pounds for three complete calendar months—the interest is not made up in this book.

WILLIAM GEORGE TRINDER . I am a clerk in the Savings Bank Department of the General Post-office, Queen Victoria Street—this is the original deposit book of John William Cantle—this shows his account in the Postoffice from May, 1880, to December, 1882—on 20th December, 1882, he drew out 69l. 11s. 1d. at the Kennington Post-office, which closed the account—all notes paid at the post-office are stamped with the post-office stamp when paid out.

HENRY FREDERICK SALMON . I am managing cashier at the National

Penny Bank, Elephant and Castle branch, Walworth Road—I produce a copy of the account in the name of John William Taylor, aged 19—it was opened on 21st December, 1882, by a payment of 55l. in Bank of England notes, Nos. 21315 to 21326, dated 12th October, 1882, stamped with the official stamp of the post-office—on 2nd January, 1883, 8l. was drawn out, and on 1st February 47l. in gold was drawn out, closing the account.

JOHN WILLIAM CANTLE (a Prisoner). I am at present in the House of Detention awaiting sentence in respect of certain offences to which I pleaded guilty at the Sessions before last—up to 30th November last year I was a cashier in the Army and Navy Stores in Victoria Street—I left on 29th or 30th—my present age is either 21 or 22, I don't exactly know—I entered the service of the Stores on 24th June, 1878—at that time my salary was 15s. a week, in 1880 it was increased to 17s. 6d., and in November, 1882, it was 25s., with a possibility of earning 6d. a day extra if my accounts were correct—I first made the prisoner's acquaintance in 1879—he was at that time a bicycle manufacturer at Kennington Cross—I cecame acquainted with him through having a bicycle repaired, and in May, 1880, I purchased a bicycle of him for 12l. or 13l. and in the next season, 1881, I bought another for 16 or 17 guineas—these (produced) are the receipts, I paid by instalments—he asked me at first in 1880 where I worked, and I told him at the Army and Navy Stores, Victoria Street, as cashier, and that my wages were 17s. 6d.—I became very intimately acquainted with him then, and used to go out riding on bicycles with him, and go to his house to tea on Sundays and spend my evenings with him, and we rode on bicycles on Saturday afternoons and Sundays, and if we went out from Saturday afternoon to Sunday we spent 10s. or 12s.—about May, 1881, we were out riding and went to the White Horse, where we drank, and he said "You seem to have plenty of money, how do you manage it; do you fuddle your books?"—I said that Winter, a foreman in the Stores, had shown me a plan so that I could make plenty of money—he had not been at Strange's then, but he came afterwards—Strange said "If you want any money taken care of at any time I will take care of it for you"—about the beginning of the bicycle season of 1881 he asked me again how I managed at the Stores—I told him all I had to do was to make it right with the cheque clerk, leave the bill out of the book, and divide the money—the cheque clerk always did go; I could not do it without him, our books would not agree—Strange asked me if I had been banking money, and I said "Yes"—we went about in 1882 spending money in the same manner, and Windus who pleaded guilty in September, frequently went with us—on a Saturday afternoon in August Windus and I were going for a ride to Weybridge—we stopped at Strange's on the way, and Windus asked Strange if he would mind some money for him, as he had only a small pocket on his bicycle—it was 10l. in gold, and when he handed it to him he said "I made this yesterday, but I kept it in my desk in case anything should turn up"—in August, 1882, I went to live at Mrs. Ketteringham's, 2A, Charlwood Place, Pimlico, with a young man named Rhodes, also in the Stores—on, I think, November 28th, 1882, a young man named Charles Windus was taken on a charge of stealing money from the Stores, and on November 30th Rhodes was taken—when Windus was taken I went home and took some money out of my box—I had about 100l. there which I had robbed

the Stores of from time to time and brought home in my pocket—I took 60l. or 70l. out and Rhodes went with me—we took a cab and went to the Penny Bank, Victoria Street—I deposited 20l. there in my own name—we then went to Strange's in Kennington, and I said to him "Charley Windus was arrested to-day, I am afraid they will search my box, I want you to mind some money for me"—he said "Well, I will take care of it; if anything is found out don't say I have got it"—I said "Here is 40l. 10s.," and gave it to him in a leather purse—I asked him if he would give me a receipt; he said "Yes, but you had better ante-date it in case anything is found out"—I than wrote out the body of this I O U (produced), and he signed it—it is dated November 20th, 1882, but the transaction took place on the 28th—the date is Strange's writing—I went to him again the next evening, and he said "Jack, your money was 10s. wrong"—I could not dispute it then, and I said "Put it down 40l."—on the 30th I sent Strange a telegram, and he came to Mrs. Ketteringham's with a friend, about 8.30 p.m.—I had been very queer all day; I said "Rhodes was arrested to-day; I am ill, and I am afraid they are going to arrest me; what had I better do?"—he said "You come over to my place"—we took a cab and went there, leaving a note for my landlady—when we got to Strange's I saw a medical man—I think his name was Allen—I remained there some weeks, but I was there a fortnight before I went to Mrs. Ketteringham's—Strange said when I was at his house that he would go to the Stores to see if anything was found out about me—the doctor had recommended me rest, and given me a certificate—on December 1 Strange went out, and when he returned he told me had been to the Stores, and had seen Mr. Yeldham, who was very cross, but he did not think anything was found out about me, and he had seen Winter there, who said he thought it was all right, but he would come over and see me himself in the evening—I think I had only then seen Winter over at Strange's, but from that time he came regularly and saw me there—I had then 69l. 11s. 1d. in the Post-office Bank, Westminster—I drew it out in December, and paid 65l., I think to Strange—Strange told me to draw it out in case anything was found out—he said "I will take care of it with the other"—I opened a new account with it the next day in the name of Taylor at the Elephant and Castle Branch, Walworth Road—Strange told me to use another name—he did not say what name, but he knew what name I banked in afterwards—on February 1, 1883, I closed that account by drawing out 47l., which I paid to Strange—I believe it was in gold—before I left the Stores Strange asked me several times to go into his bicycle business, but I did not care about it—when I was staying in his house in December he asked me if I should like to go into a laundry business, as I should not be able to go back to the Stores, and early in January there was an advertisement by Mr. Brasier to dispose of a laundry at Acton—Strange went to see it two or three times, and we concluded to purchase it for 230l.—I went with Strange in December, 1882, to open his account at the Penny Bank—he told me he was going to pay money in there, but he did not say for what purpose—this (produced) is a copy of the agreement between us made out afterwards (This was an agreement dated 30th January, 1883, between George Brasier on the one party and John Strange and J.W. Cantle on the other part, for the purchase from Brasier of a laundry at Acton for 230l.)—in July, 1883, when notice of dissolution was served on me, I

was in the House of Detention—I was taken in May, and have been in custody ever since—on 30th January Strange drew a cheque for 100l., payable to Brasier—I took it to the bank and cashed it—the clerk told me to write "Brasier" on it, and I got ten 10l. notes for it—30l. was the earnest money paid to Brasier on the 26th as well as the 100l.—in December, when I was staying at Strange's, William Windus was there, and Strange's sister came in and said "There is a man walking up and down outside who I know is a detective"—Windus and I were expecting to be arrested every day, and Strange said "Come on you two, you had better hide"—he took Windus somewhere upstairs, and came down and put me in a cupboard, and covered me up with some dresses and shut the door—I remained there 10 minutes, and then he came and said "I think it is all right now," and I came out, and he fetched Windus down—a few days after we were in the house, and a ring at the bell came, and his sister or housekeeper, they were both there, said "There is a policeman at the door, Jim"—Strange said "Come on you two, you had better hide," and he took us upstairs through a bedroom into another bedroom, and we both tried to get under a bath, but it was not big enough; only one of us could get under—I stopped about 10 minutes, and Strange came up and said "It is all right; he has gone away now"—I pleaded guilty at the September Session to stealing a considerable amount of property at Twickenham and at East Grinstead—a person was sent to Twickenham in consequence of a forged order from Mr. Hume, one of the depositors at the Stores—William Windus took apartments there in November, 1882, in the name of Hume, and then wrote up as if one of the customers had given a real order and got goods sent down—before that was carried out Windus said to Strange "Can you tell me where would be a good place to have some things sent through the Stores, as we intend having some sent?"—Strange said "Twickenham or thereabouts, that is a nice quiet place"—I said it would do very well, and the same thing was attempted to be done at East Grinstead—Windus remained at Twickenham in the name of Hume three weeks or a month, but he frequently came up to Strange's, and saw me there—we had a conversation, and showed Strange how we were going to get the goods—we got about 100l. worth of goods by that plan at Twickenham, and most of them were pawned in London—Windus brought them up—Windus, and I, and Strange, and Cornell were present when they were pawned—the tickets were burnt—I saw some of the things—there was a great deal of jewellery—we endeavoured, but we did not actually get goods at East Grinstead—Windus had asked Strange where would be a nice quiet hotel to go to and have goods sent, and he said "Payne's Hotel, East Grinstead"—that was the hotel we went to on bicycles—Strange had goods altogether amounting to 152l., and he had 10l. on the morning we bought the business—the whole of that money was the proceeds of frauds of various kinds on the Stores—that is the medical man who attended me at Strange's house (Mr. Allen).

Cross-examined. I do not know what my sentence is to be—Cornell had charge of the deposit ledger—he passed Windus's letters in the name of Hume as if they came from a real depositor and got the goods out—I pleaded guilty to the forgery—Cornell has been sentenced to twelve months; Windus has not been sentenced yet—nine of us were in the dock on September 18th—they were all sentenced to from three months to twelve, except Windus and I—Mr. Poland asked that our sentences

should be postponed—I have been in custody since May—no one brought Mr. Dutton into communication with me; I wrote to him on 18th August from the House of Detention—I never saw Chamberlain there—no friend of mine said that if I volunteered information it would be better for me; I don't think my brother or anybody had communicated with Mr. Dutton up to that time—Cornell had told me that if he was me he should make a statement; Windus did not also tell me so; I had not spoken to him at that time; I was in the same cell with him at the police-court, but there was always an officer outside the cell—that happened once a week—my parents told me to plead guilty; I have only seen them once, but they may have sent my sister to me—Mr. Dutton took my statement a day or two after 18th August; he was with me three or four hours; my statement was read over to me and I signed it—I had not pleaded guilty then—I have made two or three statements; it is less than six; they have all been taken down—he may have come one day and afterwards continued the same story—I don't think I saw Mr. Dutton more than four times, and I may have seen his clerk four times—I have seen Mr. Chamberlain many times; I did not make a statement to him—whenever I saw Mr. Dutton or his clerk I made a statement—I think I have only implicated two persons from first to last, Winter and Strange; I told nothing about Mears—I was in the grocery department; there are over twenty assistants there and three or four shopwalkers, besides higher officials who walk about the place—I have two check clerks, one on each side of me; each has a stamp to stamp the bills, and I stamp them as cashier—men are appointed to write the orders, and in a very few cases they write them threefold with carbonised paper, but a great many customers write their own orders, and then there is only one—I am the man who pocketed a half-sovereign which a customer left on my desk—I knew I was stealing it but at the Stores we often lost 1l. or 30s. a week, so we kept customers' change to recoup ourselves—my books will prove how much I was short—the first week I was there I lost 2l. by giving customers too much change or taking too little, and I more than recouped myself by taking more than I lost—I never kept any 5l. notes—I don't remember representing to any one that I was getting 3l. a week at the Stores; I might say so to hide anything if I had been out with anybody spending a lot of money—I was in a bicycle club with Strange a long time ago; it was only In existence a month or two—I only remember about a dozen members—we had no regular uniform, only a dark blue suit—I also belonged to the Silver Cup Club—Windus was in that—there was a regular uniform—when you produce the badge of a bicycle club at touring public-houses they take so much off what you have—any member can belong to the Silver Cross Club by paying 5s. a year—there are a number of touring houses—when I rode out on a Saturday afternoon I used to start at 2 o'clock—I thought it a very expensive amusement—sometimes we each paid and sometimes one paid and divided it between us—I paid Strange by instalments for my first bicycle—I afterwards sold it at a loss, and bought a better one next year—I sold it through Strange—he sold it for 15l. and allowed me 10l.—I had paid 18 guineas for it—I sold them all for less than they cost me—I put 96l. into the laundry business—Strange lent me 4l. to make up 100l., and I gave him an I O U for it, that was my share of the capital—I afterwards sold the business and received back 20l. for my share, I was in custody at that time—I

never did any work at the laundry, I went and made up the books—I was supposed to be allowed to draw 30s. a week, not for my services but for my profit—I never received any money, it was always collected by Strange and paid into his bank—Miss Strange never charged me with embezzling 2l., she had nothing to do with the business, she was only a paid hand there—she did not give me 35l. 14s. 6d. nor did I account for only 33l. 14s. 6d., I never heard a word about it—I assaulted Miss Strange, but my brother was fined 30s. for it by the Magistrate—that was just before I was locked up in May—she said that I was a thief and a rogue, but that did not relate to the laundry business—I did not break open Strange's desk; I tried to push the top part open to get an envelope out, but his man was present—no one stopped me and said that I was not to do it—I don't remember Miss Strange calling me a rogue, but she said that I had stolen money from the Army and Navy Stores—when I gave Strange the 40l. in the red purse Rhodes was not arrested—I did not say that Windus had been taken in custody and I believed every man at the Stores would be searched on leaving, and I did not like to go any more—I did not get the 40l. back, but I banked money several times with him and drew money out, but I gave 96l. for my portion of the capital—I have had 20l. back in lieu of it—I was in custody about three months before the 20l. was paid to me, I had no alternative but to accept it as a settlement of the laundry matter—Mr. Robertson of Gray's Inn was acting for me—there was a loss on the laundry business, and he said "If I have to do things in a proper manner it will be 12 months before we get any money, and as you want money for your defence you had better take the 20l."—he first of all offered me 15l.—it is true that irrespective of the 96l. which I agreed to take back 20l. for, he had the other money to take care of for me—I saw the goods stolen from the Stores again after they went into Strange's possession—I saw a charm, that is an ornament—Windus was showing them to him, and he asked Windus to sell him the ticket of a gold chain, but he said he had burnt them—Strange never kept any articles obtained from the Stores—I might have said my father inherited a brass founders' business from his father—Strange knew what my father was—I don't think I told him so—I have told people my father was in business—I don't think I said good business, I have never gone into details—I was not boasting about it—I swear I did not say my father was in partnership with an uncle—I might have said he kept a large public-house—that was not true—I never represented that my mother had a large fortune—I had a little ruby ring which I said my mother had given me—I had bought it with the money I stole from the Stores—Strange did not complain of my only coming to the laundry once a week—he took on himself to have solicitors' letters written to Brasier—I did not know the object of them was to make the prisoner return some of the money, it was about his taking a public-house, the Montagu Arms—Brasier went into a public-house after he sold the laundry—when Winter had suggested his plan we had already thought of taking the places at Twickenham and East Grinstead, it was suggested at the Stores—I don't think when I was examined with Winter that I gave any data for that proposal, I did not say I was taken away from the department for three months, I was in the cashier department for three months as a cashier—Cornell was the person who put I and Winter up to it, it was not carried out for six

months—I swear I did not tell Strange that I was getting 3l. a week at the Stores—Postlethwaite was never in the Stores while I was there, he was never concerned in any frauds—two medical men came to see me when I was ill—I telegraphed that I was ill and wanted Strange to come and fetch me, I don't know what I put in the telegram, I will not swear it was "I am very ill, please come and fetch me"—I went to Strange's house and he sent for a doctor that night—I was ill at the time—my paying separately for that room was not thought of at the time—some days afterwards I agreed to do so, it might have been a week—the first doctor I did not like, and then Mr. Allen was called in—we did not always have to provide a certificate of illness when we were absent from the Stores, I didn't in this case; this illness was not a sham, it was a real illness, I had a certificate given me for rupture by Dr. Allen, and I sent that to the Stores—it was not rupture, that was what one doctor said it was, he misunderstood it, I did not deceive him, I didn't know which doctor was right—I swear I did not send the certificate to the Stores by Strange—he did not take it, as a man came to see me next day, and I don't know whether I sent it by him or whether Strange had it—I should not like to swear if I gave it to Strange to take to the Stores—I was suffering from rupture at the time, I was in great pain—I was taken care of by Strange all the time I was there—that was before the throwing of the beer and the calling me a rogue and scamp by Miss Strange—Winter and Cornell and my brother came to see me there, and Windus—I don't remember any more of the Stores people coming—Windus was not engaged at the Stores then, he had left—I don't know that I boasted among other things that I could live with my father and it would cost me nothing—I was living in lodgings at the time—it was three months before I was taken in custody since I had lived with my father—my father did not press me to pay anything, I had hardly any meals at home, I only slept there as a rule—I went to the betting place, Grafton's, Westminster—I betted there on horse races, in the majority of cases I lost, I won one or two—I remember I told a man that I had won some money, a few pounds, I don't remember what amount it was. I may have said it to more than one—Postlethwaite drove me to racecourses in a Hansom cab—I did not tell Postlethwaite I had won a lot of money by betting—it was on bank holidays that we drove to races, four times, I think, I went; he is a young man who drives a Hansom cab, not for his father—I used to take Postlethwaite for a whole day in the Hansom cab—I always had one of my companions with me—Rhodes went—I could give you the names of the other people who went with me the other times, they are not concerned in this case—I do not suggest that Strange went.

Re-examined by MR. POLAND. The laundry business cost 230l., my share was 100l.—I paid 96l., and gave an I O U for 4l.—I was taken in custody on 30th or 31st May—in August I wanted money for my defence, and I took out 20l., so that the prisoner has got all the laundry, and all I have got is 20l. out of the 96l. paid to him—when I was taken in custody the laundry was being worked; there was always a profit to it, but whether the profit has increased or not I don't know—I took 20l. on the advice of my solicitor—at Windsor once, when on one of these expeditions, the prisoner was with us when we had champagne—we did not always have it, we generally used to dine pretty well—I had communication with the

prisoner when in the House of Detention—he kept me for about three days—of the nine young men who were in the dock the Session before last besides myself and Windus, Ryon, Mears, Marriott, and Rhodes used to go to Strange's—Rhodes was not convicted here, but before that at the Middlesex Sessions—I don't remember any others going to Strange's—Mears and Marriott were the cheque clerks who assisted me in my frauds at the Stores; I don't remember any others—Mears was tried and convicted here, and Marriott pleaded guilty two sessions ago—the Miss Strange I had the dispute with was present when I was put into the cupboard.

By MR. BESLEY. I do not know that that was treated as a practical joke, nor that it was said to some of my companions in my presence how funny I looked trying to get under the bath—there was something about a practical joke afterwards with my brother, but not at this time—that referred to the cupboard—there was a lock on the cupboard, I was not locked in—it was not spoken of as a practical joke; I don't remember the Whole of it—Strange did not say a policeman had come to inquire about a dog licence, and they had had a lark and put Windus in a cupboard—I can only call William and Charles Windus to prove we had champagne—I could not call the landlord to prove it—we had it at the White Swan, or an hotel with some such name at Windsor; Strange had the bill, it came to 2l. or 2l. 10s. altogether for all of us, going down on our bicycles, stopping all night, and supper, beds, and breakfast—it was a kind of champagne we had, it came to 8s. or 9s. a bottle.

By MR. POLAND. When I was in the cupboard and under the bath it was to conceal me from the police, and on both occasions he told Windus to be off—he went away at once—I am quite well of my ailment now—I do not wear a truss.

FRANCIS JOHN ALLEN . I am a surgeon—in November, 1882, I was in practice in the Kennington Road—on the afternoon of 1st December I was called to Mr. Strange's house, and found Cantle suffering from a part of the bowel having descended so as to form a partial rupture—I treated him and gave him a certificate to that effect—I had treated him before for venereal disease.

Cross-examined. Cantle came to my surgery when he had the venereal disease on one occasion only—on 1st December it was not an actual rupture; it would have, been if he had gone about—it was not arising from the other complaint—he was suffering from the previous complaint—he did not want nursing for that—he wanted rest after this one, and not to move about—I know Dr. Leftwich by name—I do not know whether Cantle had seen him the night before.

Re-examined. I knew he was employed at the Army and Navy Stores at that time—it was at the prisoner's house I examined him.

HENRY CHARLES YELDHAM . I am chief cashier to the Army and Navy Co-operative Stores, Limited—on 30th November or 1st December the prisoner came there—I saw him, and I received a medical certificate, but whether by him or by post I cannot say—he told me that Cantle was ill, suffering from hernia, and unable to come to business—he did not say who he was, but I understood that Cantle was at his house, and that he was a doctor—the certificate has been lost.

Cross-examined. I cannot exactly say what he said, but the impression left on my mind was that he was a doctor—to the best of my belief I received

the certificate by post—I do not remember receiving it from the prisoner—I was examined against Goldsmith—he was acquitted after my allegation that he had confessed his guilt—the Stores have prosecuted about 18 persons in 12 months, and I think 32 were dismissed in one day—Mr. Dutton began these wholesale prosecutions about the beginning of June this year—he has had the management of the legal part of it—an approver gave evidence in favour of Goldsmith—there were a very large number of witnesses—the Directors did not get them to implicate one another—Mr. Dutton was allowed to do as he pleased—he prosecuted Rhodes—he represented the society in December, and in all these series of prosecutions since—the chief accountant is here—he was not examined against Goldsmith—the business done at the Stores is about two millions and a half a year—the net profit is about 4 1/2 d. in the pound after taking account of these frauds—3, 500 persons are employed; the lowest salary is 25s. a week.

WILLIAM HERMAN PRESTON WINDUS . I am a prisoner awaiting sentence for an offence to which I pleaded guilty last September—I entered the Stores in May, 1879—I was cheque clerk and also cashier—I made Strange's acquaintance in March, 1881—he was keeping a bicycle shop at 18, Kenningten Cross—I went there and gave him an order for a 14-guinea bicycle to be made—I was receiving about 1l. a week wages—I told him who I was, and I was introduced by Harry Fraser, a cashier at the Stores—I saw him again in a month—I went to pay him so much off the 14l. 14s.—I believe the receipt has been destroyed—I have told my people to search for it and it cannot be found—two or three months after that I went out riding with the prisoner and Cantle on Saturdays and Sundays in June—we stayed out two days, it used to cost us about 15s. each for the two days—in settling my bill in October I paid off the remaining amount, 8l.—the prisoner asked me how I got it, and I told him I had been working it with one of my checkers, by fraud—I said that the 8l. was made in that way—only he and I were present—he asked me how I did it—I said "I leave out the bill and get my check clerk to do the same, and keep the money, so that there is no record of the transaction"—he said "Are not you afraid of being found out?"—I said "No, as a foreman named Winter gets the bills for me, and I destroy them"—Winter has been committed for trial here on another charge—I continued to go out riding with him, and we became more intimate—I was concerned with Cantle and Cornell in a fraud at Twickenham—I represented myself as a customer having a deposit account—that is one of the charges I have pleaded guilty to—at the end of October, 1882, I called there with Cantle and said "Can you tell me a nice quiet place where we can have goods sent, where Carter Paterson's deliver?"—after thinking a little while he said "Twickenham, I should think, would suit you; it is a nice quiet, select place"—about a week after that Cantle said "We have decided to go to Twickenham, Jim Windus is to go down there and send orders to the Stores, which will be passed by a man named Cornell in the deposit office"—I went down there and brought some goods to London, two of the charms—I saw him there, showed him one of the charms, and said "We have received these a few days ago"—he took it up and said that it was a pretty ornament—I also brought up the pencil-cases, but I don't think I showed them to the prisoner—Cantle left first and I went with the prisoner to a public-house to have a drink, and

he asked me under what name I was staying and where—I said "Under the name of 'Hume, Bangor House, Arragon Road, Twickenham'"—after the Twickenham business there was another matter of the same nature at East Grinstead, but that was abandoned—in December, 1882, I asked the prisoner whether he could tell me of a nice quiet public-house or hotel in the country—he turned to Cantle, who was with me, and said "Will Payne's, I should say; Payne's Hotel, Grinstead, you know, Jack, where we used to put up"—I had been there with the prisoner on bicycles—I said that we wanted to have goods sent there, as in the other case, but nothing was sent—I was down at Twickenham when Rhodes was taken—my brother Charles was taken a day or two before, and I was at Twickenham then—on the Friday before the Saturday when I left Twickenham at the end of November we were speaking of my brother's arrest, and whether we thought they would be after Cantle or not, and Cornell said "I don't think so, because you have destroyed all the bills, and there is no evidence against you"—at the end of 1882 Cantle and I were talking to the prisoner, and his sister Lucy, who was standing at the door, came in and said "There is a strange man outside evidently on the watch, who I know to be a detective"—the prisoner said "You come with me, Windus," and he took me upstairs through a back bedroom into another room—I stopped there 10 minutes, and he came and let me out; and about a week afterwards, when there were said to be persons after me, I was hid under a bath—in August, 1882, I called at prisoner's shop with Cantle and asked him to take care of 10l. in gold—I said that I made it yesterday in the drapery department, and asked him to take care of it, as I had only a small pocket in my knickerbockers—he said "You had better let me keep it for the silver-plated bicycle you promised to give me an order for"—I had promised him an order for one, but had not given it to him—I was taken in custody on 6th June this year.

Cross-examined. I had promised to give him an order for a silverplated bicycle at about 17 guineas, to be taken in exchange—after depositing the 10l. with him I got it back on the following Monday; that is the only money I have given him, barring the bicycle money—I never handed him any articles belonging to the Stores—I never showed him anything except one or two charms—I made a communication to the prosecution within a week after I was convicted—I wrote a letter to Mr. Dutton telling him I wished to tell him everything I could, and to make every reparation I could—I did not know that I was to be a witness at the time: I had not been told so—as soon as I was arrested I made up my mind to tell everything—no one told me it would be better to be a witness—Chamberlain did not say so; he did not say anything to me—no hint was given to me that it would be better to make a clean breast of it—I did it on my own responsibility—I made no statement to Chamberlain—I spoke to him on the way home; he asked me who I knew in the bicycle club, and I told him two or three names—he did not hint that it would be better to implicate others; as I made my voluntary statement I was bound to bring in the names—that was about a week after I was taken to the House of Detention—I had no solicitor nor any friend present at the time, there was only Mr. Dutton; he took down my statement, read it over to me, and I signed it—he came on two or three occasions—he had the best part of my narrative before the end of June—I did not know that I was wanted to disclose the names of my fellowservants

who were dishonest; I surmised so before it was told me—I don't know how many names I gave to Mr. Dutton—I made statements from time to time for two or three months—I have made no direct statement since the prisoner has been in custody—all my statements were made before I heard Mr. Poland ask that I and Cantle should not be sentenced because we had given valuable information—Strange was taken in custody after that—I saw him at the police-court on one occasion—I gave some of my statements to Mr. Dutton, and I believe one to his clerk, and one or two to Chamberlain—they were all reduced into writing—I did not know that Strange was at the police-court as a witness against me—I had heard that he had been there—I could not tell whether he was a witness for me or not—I pleaded guilty to all, but I have not yet been sentenced—I never told any one that my father was a widower, and was keeping company with a lady who had 6,000l. a year, and so that I had plenty of pocket money—I have said it to my own friends, but not to that amount—I did not say any amount; I said a rich lady—he is a widower—I have been to the house of the rich lady on two occasions—I did not boast of it—she is rich as far as I know—I did not say that I had plenty of pocket money—I left the Stores, sent in my resignation, before anybody had been taken in custody; I left at the end of October—I could not have done the forgery at Twickenham before that, became I was down at Twickenham at the time; I was not in the service of the Stores then—latterly I was one of those who when customers left their change pocketed it—I have done that for the last year or so—two new 5l. notes were given to me, close together, and I gave back one because I thought they would know the numbers of the notes—that was when the prisoner asked me to keep it, and said he would buy them of me—I told him about it, and he said that if I brought them down to him he would give me 4l. for them; my brother Charlie was present then—I said at the police-court that I had never retained the change of the customers before I had committed the frauds with Winter—that was in March, 1881; I had not done so before then—I gave most of it to Strange since—it was somewhere about the time that I paid the 8l. to Strange that the affair happened about the 5l. notes—I did not represent to the Magistrate that it was Winter that told about the two notes, I said it was Strange—it was about October, 1882, that it happened, or August, "October, 1881," I should have said—there was no one at the Stores who could confirm my statement as to that—we were not supposed to tell everything that occurred at the cash desk—nobody saw it at the Stores; the cash clerk was by; nobody came round to see that it was paid—I did not say that the check clerk was in it—that is in the grocery department, and that was in the book department—no one was there to see me return the 5l. note—I didn't show it to any one at the Stores, not to any one of my superiors.

JOSEPH WATKINSON . I live at 46, Carter Street, Walworth Road—I am in the employment of Boord and Son, distillers, for the last 12 months—I was formerly in the employment of the Stores—I have known Strange between three and four years as a bicycle manufacturer, by going to his place of business—I know Cantle and Windus; I have seen them there—I know Ryan, Mears, and Marriott—I have not seen Mean there—I recollect Cantle being taken in custody, I believe on the 21st May—shortly after that I went to Strange's place, 18, Kennington Cross—I

didn't see him there, I saw him in the Windmill public-house, nearly opposite—he told me to tell Cantle that if they should ask him he was to say that the money that was invested in the laundry was won by horseracing—I said "Very well"—he told me to tell Cantle to let him have the names of some of the horses that had won races, at Esher especially, one upon which he said he had won 16l., and then Strange was to contradict him and say it was 16l. or 17l. for certain, which would not arouse suspicion—he also told me to send nothing out on paper, it was to come by word of mouth, for he didn't know what might turn up, he didn't want to have anything to do with it, or words to that effect.

Cross-examined. I saw Cantle at the House of Detention before this conversation with Strange, I went to visit him there every week—he had been there about two months—this conversation took place some time at the end of July—I have never been there with his solicitor—I heard he had a solicitor—I never knew that Cantle had himself set up the story of his having won money at horse-races—I knew that he had won money at horse-races—I think I omitted stating at the police-court about the money being invested in the laundry—this is the first time I have mentioned it—I only saw Strange once while Cantle was in the House of Detention as far as I can say—I don't know that Cantle's sister had asked Strange to send him in food at the House of Detention; I knew that Cantle had, and I knew that Strange was sending him in food—I didn't know at that time that Mr. Robertson, his solicitor, had advised him to plead guilty—I didn't know that he was going to plead guilty—nobody was with me when I went to see Strange, but I saw two of Ryan's friends who had been there; they were a few yards away from us, they couldn't hear what passed—I never saw Strange after that—I went to see him, but I did not—I was only at the police-court the last time, when they were committed for trial—I didn't see Strange again—I have seen Cantle since his committal, but have had no conversation as regards this evidence.

ALICE KETTERINGHAM . I live at 2A, Sharwood Place, Pimlico—the witnesses Cantle and Rhodes lodged at my house up to 30th November last year—I recollect Rhodes being taken into custody on Friday, 30th November—I went out about 8 that evening with my husband—Cantle was in at that time—I returned about 10 and found a note from him; he was not there; he returned about a week after—I don't think he slept there that night—the prisoner was with him when he returned—we were speaking of Rhodes, and the prisoner asked if Rhodes had a solicitor, and he said if he had not he knew of a solicitor that would get him off—I was talking with them I dare say ten minutes or a quarter of an hour, but they stayed I dare say an hour—they left together; as they were leaving Cantle said in the prisoner's presence that I was not to give his address to any one but Mears and Marriott, and all his letters were to be addressed to 18, Kennington Cross—Mears and Marriott were sentenced at the last Session for frauds on the Stores.

Cross-examined. I only saw Strange once; that was about ten days after Rhodes was arrested; that would be about 10th December—Cantle did not take me on one side when he talked about Mears and Marriott; we were all three talking together—Cantle was very unwell for ten days before Strange came—I did not know what was the matter with him—he went to his work and came back ill, and it was in consequence of illness

that he went to stay at Strange's—he said that he was going to his friend Mr. Strange, where he would be well cared for—Cantle had conversed with me about Rhodes on other occasions—I don't think he said that he believed Rhodes was innocent—he said that he was quite surprised at his being arrested; he did not say anything about fearing any one coming for himself, no more than he said it would go against him lodging in the same house with Rhodes; that was not said in Strange's presence; it was in the afternoon that Rhodes was arrested in the morning—I understood that he was no more mixed up with the matter of the Stores than his lodging in the same place with Rhodes.

LOUISA CANTLE . The witness Cantle is my brother—after he was arrested I went to the prisoner's house; I think that was about three weeks after my brother was taken; that would be in June—I went to ask him if he could let me have some money to keep my brother in the House of Detention, as I was unable to do it any longer—he said he could not let me have any money, but he would pay for his food—he said "Tell Jack that they have been here from the Stores, and I have told them that he won 16l. at Esher races and several sums at other races," but he said "He has not; I have only been with him when he has lost"—he told me to ask my brother if his, Strange's, wife had any false keys to his sister's desk, and if I had read any of his sister's letters to him—he did pay for my brother for about three weeks—the last time I saw Strange was when he asked me about the keys; that was before he stopped paying for his food—he said "Somebody has been here from over the water, and I told Jack to get away, but he would not take any notice of what I said"—by "over the water" I think he meant somebody from the Stores; he mentioned the name, but I don't know what it was—he said "Tell him to make the best of it, as I am sure he will have a long time."

Cross-examined. I knew about my brother being fined 30s. for striking Miss Strange, my mother told me about it—my brother told me that Strange owed him money—I mentioned before the Magistrate about Strange telling my brother to make the best of it, as he would have a long time—I did not know of my brother's intention to plead guilty—I did not know about Mr. Dutton getting my brother's statement; I might have known it in August, but I don't think I did—Mr. Dutton did not come to me; I was sent for, and then I made this statement—I did not know of how my brother spent his time in going to the Grafton and betting in races—I know about Postlewaite coming to the house—I said I hoped Strange would let him have some money to pay for his defence and help him as much as he could—I don't think my brother had a solicitor at that time, I think it was after—I went to ask him to let my brother have some money, as my brother said he had some of his—I did not want him not to say anything against my brother—he said he would not go if they fetched him—he did not say anything about not giving evidence.

SAMUEL WATTS . I was a constable in the Metropolitan Police up to 17th May last, when I retired on a pension after 23 years' service—I knew Strange for four or five years; he lived with his wife at my place, 77, Ravenden Park; that is how I first became acquainted with him—between 21st May and 27th July I was employed at the Stores as private detective—I was instructed to watch the premises, 18, Kennington Cross, occupied by the prisoner—on Saturday, 26th May, I was in the White

Hart public-house, close by, and saw Strange—he asked me to have a drink—he did not know I was employed by the Stores—he said the detectives had been to Acton and seen his wife, and he said, "She has rounded on you; you had better be careful and have nothing to say to her, as if you do she will get your pension taken away"—I did not know then to what he referred—I had only had to do with his wife in family matters—I said, "I am not afraid of that"—he said, "My wife is going on anyhow at Acton, it makes it very hard for me"—I said, "Why isn't Cantle at Acton, being your partner in the business there?"—he said, "Oh, Cantle and my sister have had a row, and he only goes there to look at the books; Cantle is in a funny mess now, the detectives are after him."

Cross-examined. I said to Strange, "Well, you had better see Mr. Chamberlain and tell him about it"—he said, "Do you think if I tell Chamberlain all I know, do you think he will be obliged to tell who told him?"—I said "No, I think not"—he said "I paid Cantle 10l. in six weeks as a dividend on the 96l."—I said "Is 96l. Cantle's share in the business?"—he did not explain that of the 230l. 25l. had to be paid on book debts owing by Brasier—the prisoner said "He gave mo 53l. before last Christmas to take care of in case he should be taken into custody or apprehended, but he makes people believe he got the money by betting, but of course, he got it from the Army and Navy Stores; I and others have robbed the Stores of hundreds"—he said "Why, however did they do that?"—he said "I don't know, but if anybody got hold of young Windus and Rhodes they would say how it was done?"—they then said good night and parted—this was on 26th May—I do not know that he saw Chamberlain before or after this—I have given what I wrote down at the time—I know Martha Shilton is the sister of Miss Sarah Strange, she is 50—there were moneys unknown to Mr. Strange at one time which Miss Strange put into her sister's hands, that was not with my assistance—I do not know that Martha Strange had put 1,000l. into the 3 per cent. consols in the name of Martha Shilton without the knowledge of her husband—I have heard it, not from Mrs. Shilton—the matter of the 1,000l. might be 18 months ago—I did not see the money—Mrs. Strange kept the family affairs secret from her husband—I believe it was restored to Mrs. Strange or her sister—I know nothing about a deed of settlement nor about Mr. Haslington being employed—I don't know of 455l. being paid into Strange's banking account on 7th September, 1882, as part of the money which his wife had secreted from him; I have heard of it but I don't know of it—I don't know when he said "My wife has rounded on you" whether he meant that his wife had disclosed the fact of the money being in the names of her sister and herself—I did not know what he did mean—I cannot imagine any other cause than that—I understood Mrs. Strange was putting about 1,100l. into the possession of herself and her sister—I think that was about 18 months ago—he told me the detectives had been to his place at Acton—I did not go there at all.

Cross-examined. He said "Cantle makes believe he got it by betting, but of course he got it from the Stores; he and others robbed the Stores of hundreds; he gave me just before last Christmas 53l. to take care of for him in case he was apprehended."

---- FAWCETT. I am a corresponding clerk at the Stores—I knew

Strange as as a bicycle manufacturer—I saw him after Cantle was in custody—he asked me if I knew Cantle—I said "No, I did not"—he said "He has left the Stores"—I said "Oh, has he?"—he said "Do you think, if he was to go back, anything would be said to him?"—I don't know what date this was, Cantle was on remand—I said "No, not as I know of"—on another occasion he asked me if the Stores knew how much they had been had for—I said no, I did not think they would ever find it all out—he said "Cantle, I know, has had them for 600l. or 700l., because he told me so."

Cross-examined. That was after Cantle's first or second remand—I don't know when Strange went to see Cantle at the House of Detention.

HARRY JOSEPH RHODES . I am 19—I was formerly in the service of the Stores—in December last I pleaded guilty at the Middlesex Sessions to certain embezzlements, and was sentenced to three months' hard labour—that has expired, and I am at liberty—I know Strange—I have been to his bicycle place—I remember Charles Windus being taken into custody on 28th November last year—I was taken on the 30th—in the evening I went with Cantle to the prisoner's place—before going there Cantle took about 100l. I think out of the box, he took about 70l. out with him—we first drove to the Penny Bank in Victoria Street, and he made a deposit of 20l. there; we then kept in the cab and drove over to Strange's—Cantle said "Jimmy, young Charlie is taken, but you need not be frightened, they have no suspicion at present of anything occurring in my books being wrong"—he said "Would you mind some money for me? they might take a fancy to search my box at the Stores, the authorities"—Strange said he would take care of some, and Cantle handed him 40l., I think it was, or 40l. 10s.—I have seen this receipt before with the I O U on it—it was made out for 40l. 10s., but I think there was only 40l.—I did not go there next day—I was taken into custody on the 30th.

Cross-examined. I cannot tell whether the money was counted or not, it was handed to Strange in a purse—the I O U was written out by Cantle, and signed by Strange, and then we handed it over to him—I could not say that the money was paid back again to Cantle—I was taken into custody two days after—I made a statement to Mr. Dutton in June or July—I made statements after I came out in March or April—I received a letter from Mr. Dutton, and made statements to him I think up to the present.

HENRY JUPE (Police Sergeant L). On Sept. 22nd I arrested the prisoner at Kennington Cross, on a warrant, which I read to him—he said "I know nothing about it; me conspire with Cantle? I never did anything of the kind. I never knew anything about any money he stole from the Stores. It is a plot. I thought Cantle would get up something"—I took him to Kennington Lane Station—his wife accompanied us—when there, she asked if she might be allowed to see him—she was allowed to see him, and handed this Penny Bank pass-book—it is for 250l. I think—I took it from her—Strange said to me "Surely you are not going to take that from her; that is nothing to do with the case, I want the money?"—I said "I cannot allow it to be given up; I must detain it"—we afterwards took them to Westminster Police-station, where he was charged—the warrant was read to him, and he said nothing.

Cross-examined. He did not say "Oh, that is the money of my wife, and

it belongs to her, and I want the money"—he did not say it came from his wife, or anything about his wife—Cantle had not been seen by me—Strange did not make a statement in my presence while Cantle was under remand, which was reduced into writing by Mr. Dutton—I did not go over it.

MR. BESLEY submitted that there was no evidence to go to the Jury upon the specific charge contained in the indictment—vis., conspiracy; the utmost it amounted to was that he knew of what was going on, and did not communicate it.

The RECORDER did not stop the case, but at the close he expressed his opinion that there was not sufficient evidence to support the charge, there being nothing to show that previous to the commission of the frauds the prisoner was a party to their commission.


The Jury expressed their strong censure at his conduct.

There was another indictment against the prisoner for stealing and receiving 40l., the moneys of the said Company , also for harbouring and maintaining John William Cantle, who had embezzled the money of his said employer, upon which no evidence was offered.


NEW COURT.—Tuesday, November 27th, 1883.

Before Mr. Recorder.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-74
VerdictGuilty > unknown; Not Guilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

Related Material

74. WILLIAM CUTZER (23), JOHN HATTON (22), and MICHAEL CALLAGHAN (19) , Assaulting William Fluister, with intent to rob him.

MR. RAVEN Prosecuted; MR. LIPSCOMBE appeared for Cutzer, and MR. WARBURTON for Hatton.

WILLIAM FLUISTER (Policeman H 373). On 16th October, a little before 9 p.m., I was in Leman Street in plain clothes, and saw the three prisoners outside the Black Horse—I passed them, and Cutzer struck me on my side and said "Halloa, Jack, how are you?"—I walked on, and took no notice—Cutzer then tapped me on the shoulder, and said "Halloa, Jack, ain't you going to treat us?"—I said that I did not know him, and therefore declined to treat him—he then struck me on my eye with his fist, and made a snatch at my watch—he then struck me a second blow, and knocked me down—I was wearing a tweed coat and waistcoat and my uniform trousers—my jacket was buttoned at the top and open below, and my watch chain was attached to my waistcoat through a buttonhole—the other prisoners came up; another constable then came—I took hold of Cutzer and Callaghan—I took Cutzer to the station with assistance.

Cross-examined by MR. LIPSCOMBE. The lamps outside the public-house were not alight, and it was rather dark—I had not said a word to the prisoners—Cutzer was perfectly sober, and so was I.

Cross-examined by MR. WARBURTON. I am often on duty near there—the prisoners may have known me by sight—I never saw them before—Hatton and Callaghan got away—I noticed a shade on one of Hatton's eyes—I did not see any one near them when it began—there was a beershop on the other side of the road—it is a rough neighbourhood—they got on me, and I got kicked.

JOHN COLE (Policeman H 416). On 16th October I was on duty in Leman Street, and saw the prisoners—I followed them about 50 yards—when I came up to them I found Fluister on the ground struggling with the three of them—I saw Hatton kick Fluister when he was on the ground, and when he got up, Callaghan struck him a violent blow on the

chest with his clenched fist—another constable came up and took Callaghan—a large mob gathered round, and Cutzer became so violent that the constable who had Callaghan in custody was obliged to let him go and go to Fluister's assistance—Callaghan then arrested Hatton from my custody, and I assisted the other two constables in taking Cutzer to the station—I have no doubt as to the prisoners—that is my beat.

Cross-examined by MR. LIPSCOMBE. Hatton is the man with the shade over his eye—I was the only constable in uniform—I heard Fluister say "Hold him, he has made a snatch at me."

Cross-examined by MR. WARBURTON. I was coming down the street, and saw a crowd of 50 or 100 people running not 50 yards from me—they all got round to see what was going on, and the three prisoners had Fluister on the ground—they were not the worse for drink—I had Hatton in my custody; we were struggling for about four or five minutes.

GEORGE FARMER (Policeman H 28). On 18th October I was in Leman Street about 8.45, and saw a large crowd outside the Black Horse—Fluister had Cutzer and Callaghan in custody—they were struggling very violently, and I took Callaghan from him—Cutzer became very violent—I saw he would escape, and I let Callaghan go and assisted Fluister to take Cutzer to the station—he was very violent all the way.

Cross-examined by MR. LIPSCOMBE. There was a violent struggle when I arrived—I saw no blows struck or any marks on the constable.

Cross-examined by MR. WARBURTON. The crowd did not attempt to assist the prisoners nor did they assist the police—the original charge before the Magistrate was not stealing the watch, but attempting to steal it—Hutton was in custody when I arrived.

WILLIAM REED (Policeman H 51). Fluister spoke to me, and later on I was joined by Grummett and Farmer—we were all three in plain clothes—we went down Leman Street, and saw Hatton and Callaghan outside the Trafalgar coffee-house—I caught hold of Callaghan's arm, and said that I should take him to Leman Street on suspicion of assaulting and attempting to steal from a constable in plain clothes—on that Hatton sprang up, and said "What does he say?"—Farmer went round to the other side and knocked Hatton off, and we took them both in custody.

JOHN GRUMMETT (Policeman H 358). I took Hutton.

The Prisoners' Statements before the Magistrate. Cutzer says: "I was outside the Black Horse; he pushed past us. I had a drop of drink in me, and asked him what he was shoving for. He made a clout and hit me in my eye. I made the same at him back. I did not know who he was; he was in private clothes. Because he could not get the better of us he said we tried to rob him of his watch. When he got me to the station he knocked me down senseless, cutting my ear; that the inspector knows. Look at my beard, it is all cut where he hit me in the mouth." Hatton says: "When I came out of the Black Horse last night I saw a crowd. I saw them fighting and said Come away, they are sure to get the best of you.' One of them took out his staff and hit me across the back. That is all."

Callaghan's Defence. I never interfered with the man at all.

CUTZER— GUILTY . He then PLEADED GUILTY** to a conviction at Clerkenwell in December, 1879.— Eighteen Months' Hard labour.


OLD COURT.—Friday, November 30th, and Saturday, December 1st, 1883.

Before Mr. Justice Denman.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-75
VerdictGuilty > unknown

Related Material

75. PATRICK O'DONNELL (48) was indicted for the wilful murder of James Carey, on the high seas, within the jurisdiction of the Admiralty of England.



SULLIVAN Defended.

JAMES PARISH . On Saturday, 28th July last, I sailed in the Melrose from Cape Town to Natal. I was employed as servant to three of the officers—on Sunday, the day after we sailed, I was in the second-class saloon, where my cabin is, at the bottom of the stairs in the fore part of the vessel (plan produced)—I was in the "peak," to the right of the cabin stairs, where the officers' servants and the steward slept, about 3.30 in the afternoon—I was in my own cabin and came out into the second-class saloon, on both sides of which there are berths with tables in the centre and settees—I saw the prisoner, his wife, and another passenger called James Power—the prisoner and his wife were sitting on the settee with their backs to the table and near the prisoner's berth on the left side of the saloon going aft—James Power (Carey) was standing at the corner of the prisoner's berth, and was about a yard from O'Donnell with his face towards him—the woman had her arm round the prisoner's neck and resting on his shoulder—I noticed O'Donnell pulling his arm round from his pocket and holding it towards the deceased—he fired at the deceased and hit him in the neck—Power turned round and called out "Oh! Maggie, I'm shot," and as he was staggering towards the bottom of the saloon, having got about two yards from him, the prisoner fired two more shots at him, hitting him in the back—the prisoner was only two yards from the deceased and remained in the same sitting position—I was standing about five yards from the prisoner—Mrs. Carey came out of her cabin and caught the deceased as he was falling—they both fell together—I rushed past the prisoner to the deceased, and put my finger in the wound of the neck to stop the bleeding, and remained there until the doctor came—as I passed the prisoner I saw him putting the pistol into his left side coat-pocket—Dr. Everett attended Carey, who died a quarter of an hour afterwards—about a quarter of an hour previously I saw them drinking together; that was about 3.30—after the shots were fired I picked up a bullet under the table in the saloon where the deceased died—it was about two yards from the spot where the shots were fired (The bullet was here produced)—that is the bullet—I noticed other persons in the saloon at the time, Carey's son, the boatswain Jones, and the little girl Carey—Jones was playing with the little girl at the bottom of the stairs—young Carey was also at the bottom of the stairs, but I did not notice him go anywhere.

Cross-examined by MR. RUSSELL. The whole matter occupied a very short space of time—I had time to interfere if I had so cared—I was about five yards from him—I did not attempt to interfere, I thought I might get shot myself—I did not rush forward to stop the prisoner, because I was afraid of being shot myself—he had his back to me—I was afraid he might shoot at me as I was passing—there was a storeroom next my cabin where drink was sold, but it did not open into the

cabin—I went into my cabin merely to make up my bunk and to pass the time—I remained in the cabin a quarter of an hour, and heard the first shot at about a quarter to 4—I was in the act of coming out of the cabin when I heard and saw the first shot fired—I was just outside, at the corner of the stairs—a man called Owen was in charge of the drinking bar, which was about two yards from my cabin door—I do not think Owen was present, and I believe he was not examined at the Cape.

By the COURT. There were two tables—the prisoner was sitting on the settee at the left-hand side of the first, the farthest from the stairs.

By MR. RUSSELL. I was called out of my cabin by one of the seamen to make tea for the officers, I do not know his name; otherwise I should not have come out till 4 o'clock, which was the ordinary time for tea—I was told that the officers wanted a cup of tea on the bridge earlier—there was nothing which caused me to loiter and look with any particularity at what O'Donnell and Carey were doing—I was coming out, and saw them as I looked down the saloon—I was outside my cabin when I heard the first shot. (The witness's deposition stated that he was about a pace from his cabin door when the shot was fired.) I cannot point out the positions on this plan, as it is not correct—O'Donnell held the pistol in his right hand; I am sure of that—his back was towards me, and he was looking towards his cabin—Carey was about a yard from him, lounging against the cabin—Mrs. O'Donnell was on the prisoner's left-hand side, nearest me, and she was sitting with her arm round O'Donnell's neck—that was the position when I saw the shot fired—Carey was lounging against the corner of the cabin—the boatswain Jones was at the bottom of the stairs, playing with the little girl, with his back towards the prisoner—I had not observed anything of O'Donnell or Carey during the day previous to the occasion—I saw them drinking together when I went into the cabin at about half-past 3—I did not see Mrs. Carey then present—there might have been other persons drinking besides Carey and O'Donnell, but I did not observe any one—I do not recollect Carey and O'Donnell coming on board the Melrose on the Saturday—Mrs. Carey's cabin was at the bottom of the saloon on the left-hand side—Carey slept in the steerage, being a third-class passenger, but the wife and children went second class—I do not know where Carey slept on the Saturday night—I do not know whether Carey, his wife, and O'Donnell had been on shore drinking on the Saturday—Mrs. Carey caught her husband just as he was falling on the deck—I cannot say whether she came out before the shots were fired—she was in her cabin when Carey exclaimed "Oh, Maggie, I'm shot"—the three shots might have been all fired before she came out, they were close one upon another—it was after the second and third shots that she came out—Carey called out after the first shot was fired—there never was more than about two yards between O'Donnell and Carey—O'Donnell took steady aim at the man—if O'Donnell had made one pace forward he could have struck him, if he had had a knife or a sword; he could not have struck him with his hand—Carey was facing him at the first shot; there was about a yard between them—Carey was a fine fellow, a fine man—I did not see O'Donnell take the pistol from his pocket, but I saw him drawing his hand from his pocket—Carey was looking at him, but I do not know whether he saw the pistol—Carey made no grab or any gesture to seize the pistol or O'Donnell—he was shot in the right-hand side of the neck, and when he was

struck he was leaning against the side of the cabin—I was never a soldier, and had only been about three or four months an officer's servant—before that I was a foreman at a soda-water works in Cape Town, but left because the work was slack—I am still in the employment—I did not see young Carey go to his mother's cabin at the time of the occurrence—to the best of my knowledge and observation I did not see him go to Mrs. Carey's cabin—I went on to Natal in the vessel—I do not know of my own knowledge that a pistol was found on young Carey—I did not see a pistol in young Carey's possession—it took about two days from Port Elizabeth to Natal.

Re-examined. Owen was not in the cabin so as to see what took place as far as I am aware—it is true as I have stated that I walked one pace from my cabin door when I heard the first shot, and I looked particularly at Carey—when the second shot was fired Carey had his back to the prisoner, and he staggered after the first shot—I did not see more than one pistol that day in the possession of any one—I did not hear a pistol fall on the floor—I cannot say whether or not young Carey went into his mother's cabin—I do not know where James Carey slept on Saturday night—as a steerage passenger Carey would occupy a cabin in common with other men.

THOMAS JONES . I am boatswain on the Melrose, an English merchant ship carrying the English flag—she sailed from Cape Town on Saturday evening, July 28th, at 5 o'clock—between 3 and 4 on the Sunday afternoon she was on the high seas, 25 miles from Cape Blaise—I was in the second-class saloon at 3.30 that afternoon—the prisoner, Mrs. O'Donnell, and Carey were in the cabin sitting drinking together; Mrs. O'Donnell was on his right on a settee; a little girl of Power's five years old was playing with me at the bottom of the stairs leading from the deck—I then had my back towards Carey and O'Donnell and was near Parish's cabin—I heard the report of a shot, and slued round and saw Mrs. O'Donnell with her arm on the prisoner's shoulder—Carey staggered away and O'Donnell fired two other shots at him; the second shot hit him in the shoulder and the third in the small of the back—at the second shot he called out "Oh, Maggie, I am shot"—when the third shot was fired Carey was still on his feet, but was hanging over with his back towards O'Donnell, who held the pistol in his right hand—the prisoner put the revolver into his pocket, and I went to him, took the weapon from his pocket, and gave it to the second officer, Beecher—the prisoner did not say anything—I did not notice Mrs. Carey come from her cabin—I first saw her after I had taken the pistol from O'Donnell—she went to the prisoner, who held out his hand and said "Shake hands, Mrs. Carey; I did not do it"—I think he had her hand in his—Thomas Carey, the lad, was in the cabin, and before the first shot was fired he was standing at the bottom of the stairs, but after the shots were fired I did not notice what became of him—I had been in the cabin about ten minutes before the first shot was fired—I heard no quarrelling or exclamation between Carey and the prisoner—I had not noticed them for five or ten minutes—when I last saw them before the shot was fired they had called for drink, and if I am not mistaken Carey drank her health—I did not hear any loud talking, and did not see any pistol but that used by O'Donnell—this revolver (produced) is the one I took from O'Donnell

—two chambers were loaded and three had been discharged—the prisoner said nothing to me when I took the weapon from him.

Cross-examined by MR. RUSSELL. Up to the time the shot was fired there was nothing to draw my attention to the movements of O'Donnell and Carey more than to other persons on board—I believe they were drinking each other's healths—I did not mention that circumstance before—they were lifting their glasses as if drinking each other's health; their glasses went up together, but I did not hear them say anything—I had not noticed Mrs. Carey at all that morning in the saloon—the first thing that called my attention was the shot; I rushed aft after the second and third shots were fired; a crowd rushed down and there was a deal of confusion—as far as my observation goes I did not see young Carey go to his mother's berth—I did not see any other pistol but O'Donnell's, but I cannot say that one might not have been in the cabin—I did not notice Mrs. Carey till after the three shots were fired; she was then going up to O'Donnell—I saw young Carey in the saloon, but I did not notice him do anything or go anywhere—when I saw Carey staggering after the first shot he was in the middle of the cabin, about a yard from O'Donnell's berth, and nearly opposite where the prisoner was sitting—when I turned round after hearing the first shot Mrs. O'Donnell was standing with her hand on her husband's shoulder, and she remained so when the second and third shots were fired—just as the first shot was fired a passenger passed me and went on deck; I do not know his name and do not know him; he was examined at Port Elizabeth—I heard Mrs. Carey say at the Cape that O'Donnell said "I was sent to do it," but I am almost sure O'Donnell said "I did not do it"—I think young Carey said that O'Donnell said "I could not help it"—O'Donnell did hold out his hand to Mrs. Carey and say "Shake hands, Mrs. Carey," and she did—I had not noticed whether Carey or O'Donnell were excitable men—I did not hear Carey indulging in any abuse of the Government and the English—I did not hear Robert McHardy examined at Port Elizabeth.

Re-examined. The passenger who passed me did not see any of the shooting as far as I know—I did not see Mrs. Carey in the saloon at the time, and did not know when she came out of her berth—young Carey was in the saloon at the time of the shot, but I did not observe what became of him—I did not hear anything thrown or fall on the ground before the shot was fired, nor did I hear any angry words—it was about five yards from where I was playing with the child to where the prisoner was sitting.

THOMAS FRANCIS CAREY . I was 15 years of age last April—up to the beginning of July I had lived in Dublin—my father had been in prison some time before he left Dublin—on 4th July I went on board the Kinfauns Castle in London with six younger children and my mother—we all went in the name of Power, except one, who was called M'Kenna—on 6th July my father joined the vessel at Dartmouth—he also went by the name of Power, and we all went to the Cape of Good Hope—I saw the prisoner on the voyage; I think he came on board in London—he was accompanied by a young woman—I recollect arriving at the Cape on Friday, July 27th, and on the 28th we all went on board the Melrose as steerage passengers—my mother and sisters slept in the second-class cabin, and my father and three of us boys in the steerage—the steerage is all open—on Sunday afternoon I was in the second-class saloon—I

went down from deck at 3.30, and when I came down my father, Mr. Jones the boatswain, and my little sister were there, and O'Donnell was sitting on the settee, and Mrs. O'Donnell was sitting close to him—my father was standing at the corner of O'Donnell's berth; I was near the staircase, where Jones and my sister were—I had been about five minutes in the cabin before a shot was fired—during that time my father and O'Donnell were speaking together—I heard no high words between them—I saw the prisoner draw a revolver out of his pocket and fire at my father, and the cartridge, or a bullet, hit my father in the neck—he was standing and O'Donnell was sitting—I was near the staircase—when the bullet struck my father I think he did not speak, but I saw him stagger towards my mother's cabin at the end of the saloon on the left-hand side—I ran towards my mother's cabin to get my father's revolver—I went round the tables—my mother was in her cabin and I took the revolver from the bag produced—I had seen my father with a revolver when he came on board at Dartmouth, and I saw it when my father went on shore at Madeira, and when he came back he put it into the bag—I knew it was there because I afterwards saw my father and mother go to it to get money—I think it was on the bedstead—that was between Madeira and Cape Town—I knew the bag was in my mother's cabin, because I had taken it from the Kinfauns Castle myself—when I ran to the cabin I wanted to give the revolver to my father—it was unlocked and I took it out—there was only one pistol, and, to the best of my belief, this is the one produced—I then went back into the saloon—my mother had gone out before me—after I got out of the cabin O'Donnell fired the second shot—my father was running towards my mother, crying out "Oh, Maggie, I'm shot"—I then heard a third shot fired—my father was then in my mother's arms, standing with his back towards O'Donnell—I kept the pistol in my pocket—I did not give it to my father, because I saw he would not be able to use it—my father and mother fell together, and he died within a quarter of an hour afterwards—during the whole time I was in the cabin before the shot was fired I did not hear anything like a quarrel or see any struggle—I did not see my father with any pistol, I did not pick one up off the ground—I carried the pistol in my pocket until it was taken away from me, shortly after my father's death, by the second officer—there was a good deal of excitement at the time—I saw my mother go towards O'Donnell, who put out his hand and said "Shake hands, Mrs. Carey, your name is not Power," or something like that—I am not sure whether O'Donnell said "I was sent to do it" or "I had to do it"—I am not positive as to the words used—my mother, I believe, did not shake hands with the prisoner—Mrs. O'Donnell said "No matter, O'Donnell, you are no informer"—I had seen O'Donnell using a pistol on the voyage—he was shooting flying fish with it, but I cannot say whether it was the one with which he shot my father.

Cross-examined by MR. RUSSELL. This is the fifth time I have appeared as a witness—I saw in the saloon at the time I heard the first shot, Mr. Jones, the prisoner, my father, Mrs. O'Donnell, and my little sister was playing with Jones—others might have been there—I cannot say whether Parish was present; he might have been—I said at Bow Street "At the time the pistol was drawn, my father could have seen Jones in the cabin, but not Parish, because Parish came out of his cabin when the shot was fired"—that is not true, but I did not understand the question

Mr. Sullivan put to me—I thought the question was if my father looked round while Mr. O'Donnell was drawing the revolver, and could he see Parish—I said that he could not, because Parish came out when the shot was fired—I cannot say whether that was a true answer—I did not see Parish out of his cabin, because my back was turned to him—the question I did not understand was about when Mr. O'Donnell drew the revolver; I have had time to think about it now—my little sister and Jones were at the bottom of the companion steps—I cannot say whether I was facing towards them, but I think I was looking towards the aft end of the saloon, towards my mother's cabin—I don't know whether their faces were towards me or not—I saw the prisoner lire the pistol, and I think it was with his left hand; his body would have hidden what he was doing if it was in his right hand—he might have drawn it with his right hand, but he fired, I think, with his left hand; I saw him draw it, but cannot tell with which hand—I do not recollect whether I swore at Port Elizabeth that he fired with his left hand—the moment the shot was fired I ran to my mother's berth—my mother was there, and she came out into the saloon just before me—when my father came on board at Dartmouth I first saw the pistol; he carried it in a revolver pocket behind on his hip—I heard that it was given him at Dublin, and he showed it to me—he took it ashore with him at Madeira—so far as I know no one knew up to then that my father was Carey—I never looked at the pistol to see if it was loaded, though I saw it once or twice; I should have known, for I had had one of my own, which I bought at Port Elizabeth—I saw the pistol between Madeira and the Cape, when my mother and father went to the bag to get some money—the bag contained money, papers, and the revolver—up to the time when we changed into the Melrose my mother and father berthed together, and, so far as I know, the bag was kept locked; down to July 29 it was generally kept locked; I saw it unlocked once or twice between Madeira and the Cape—we arrived at the Cape at 4 a.m. on July 27—the vessel was brought alongside about 6 a.m., and my father went on shore—he did not take the pistol with him on shore at the Cape, far he was asked at the Custom House if he had any firearms, and he laid "No"—one of the men at the yard told us that if he had any fire arms he would have to pay 10s., and if he denied it he would have to give the revolver up—the Melrose was close beside the Kinfauns Castle, and our things were carried on board in the afternoon—I carried the traps and bag which contained the revolver—I think I went on shore on Saturday, and I think I met Mrs. O'Donnell and the prisoner—I do not remember that my father, the prisoner, and Mrs. O'Donnell went up town on the Saturday drinking—we slept on board the Melrose that Saturday night—when I ran, after my father was shot, to the bag it was not locked—I did so because my mother could get the revolver out, and because I could open it whether it was locked or not; if you pulled the straps you could get your hand in—the carpenter on the Kinfauns Castle had to open it for my father one day—he did something with the key, and I saw aim pull this strap, and therefore I thought I could get the pistol out by putting in my hand—it was brought here after the murder—when the Magistrate required me to get out a cheque for 100l. I could not open it with the key, and the carpenter got a chisel and burst the lock—I could not get it by pulling the straps because it was at the

bottom among some papers—it was, in fact, open when I got the revolver out, but I could have got it if it had been locked—I cannot mention any one who saw me with the pistol in the saloon after my father was shot—I cannot remember the second officer asking me if I had one, but he searched me twice on that day on deck—he did not find the pistol on the first occasion, I had it in my trousers pocket—I do not remember telling him that I had not one—three minutes afterwards he searched me again—I did not hear the second officer, Beecher, told that I had the pistol; I saw a young man speaking to him, but he searched me again and took it from me—I told Beecher I wanted to get it out of my mother's way, and I told you I wanted to get it to give it to my father; both were true—I do not remember saying before to-day that my father put the pistol into the bag after Madeira, or that I had carried the bag from the Kinfauns Castle to the Melrose—I did not understand that I was asked whether my father took the pistol on shore with him—I said something like this at Port Elizabeth, that O'Donnell said to my mother, "I did not do it," and I said at Bow Street that he said, "I was sent to do it"—I knew that my mother had sworn that those were the words, and that was the reason I swore to them at Bow Street—I cannot really remember what the words were—my father and O'Donnell were great friends in the Kinfauns Castle—O'Donnell was to have stopped at the Cape, but my father said there was a better chance of work at Natal—while we were leaving Cape Town on Sunday some men came on the quay and pointed at my father, who was on deck—up to that time I do not know that any one had suspected that my father was Carey—my father asked me to see if the men were pointing at him—as to the shooting of my father, all three shots had not been fired when my mother got to the saloon; if it has been said that all three shots were fired before my mother came, that was not correct—I bought a pistol at Port Elizabeth, I paid 4s. for it; I flung it overboard as it was broken—we drove about at Port Elizabeth, my mother and myself, but I do not remember the driver's name—I don't remember someone saying, "You are a fine fellow, why did you not shoot O'Donnell when he shot your father?" and my replying that I ran to get it, but it was gone, my father had it—I do not remember reading that the prisoner said my father had a pistol—I do not remember that man (Walter Young).

Re-examined. My father, when shot, was laid on the table, and his pockets were turned out—I did not see anything taken out—he kept the pistol in his pocket for a day or two after leaving Madeira, and I afterwards saw it in the bag—I did not pick up any pistol on the saloon floor—my mother went to the bag and she got a fright; she thought the revolver was lost, or that somebody had taken it, because she did not see it, but I made her open the bag and showed it to her—when the first shot was fired by O'Donnell I ran to my mother's berth to get the pistol—I saw Parish in the saloon after my father was dead, but not till then—I said that Parish had come from his cabin after the first shot because I had read it in his evidence.

MARGARET CAREY . I left London on July 4 on the Kinfauns Castle with my children, and was joined by my husband at Dartmouth on the 6th—on the way not we made the acquaintance of the prisoner and a woman who passed as his wife—we became very friendly, and played at draughts and chatted together—at Cape Town we did not sleep on

shore, but were transferred to the Melrose on the Saturday of our arrival—the prisoner was to have stopped at the Cape, but he joined the Melrose for Natal—on the Sunday he was in the second-class saloon with his wife—my husband was on deck—the prisoner said to me "Where is Mr. Power?"—I said "On deck"—he said "You had better call him down"—my husband was called down, and came into the ✗on—the prisoner asked my husband to have a bottle of ale, and he said he was just coming down to have one—my husband took the baby from me and pnt it in our cabin; but it awoke, and I went to it—I went into the cabin, and in five or ten minutes I heard the first shot, which I thought was a ginger-beer bottle gone—before I went away I saw the men with ale before them—O'Donnell and his wife were on the settee, and my husband too—I heard a second shot—then I put down the baby and went out, and I heard a third shot, and my husband met me and fell into my arms, crying "Oh, Maggie, I am shot, O'Donnell has shot me"—my son rushed into my cabin as I was coming out—I saw my husband was bleeding from the side of his neck—he fell and I fell with him—I remember going up to the prisoner, upon whose shoulder the woman had her hand—I said "O'Donnell, did you shoot my husband?"—he said "Shake hands, Mrs. Carey; don't blame me; I was sent to do it"—the woman said "No matter, O'Donnell, you're no informer"—up to that time we had gone by the name of Power—up to the time I left the cabin my bag was there—I knew my husband had a revolver; but I had not seen it—I heard from the prisoner that he had sold a revolver in Cape Town for 3l. 10s.—this had come up in conversation.

Cross-examined. I do not remember that man (Walter Young) at Port Elizabeth—I did not drive about much in Port Elizabeth, only when Mr. Wyles seut for me—I drove about Port Elizabeth, but it was not that man who drove me—several men drove me—I knew that O'Donnell was going on to Natal with my husband instead of stopping at the Cape—they chummed together on the voyage—it was said there would be a better chance of work at Natal than at the Cape—I had not seen the revolver up to the time of the examinations before the Magistrate—I do not remember going to the bag and thinking the pistol was missing—I do not remember my son or any one else taking it out of the bag from under some papers until I saw it at Port Elizabeth; that I am positive about—it was not a bag in which I kept anything of my own—I had some money which I gave to my husband, and he put it into the bag; also some pencils and studs—the key was broken, and the carpenter assisted to get the bag open—this was at Cape Town—when we wanted money we had very little occasion to go to the bag—on one occasion my husband opened the bag on the Melrose—he told me he had borrowed some money from the men he was with, and the bag was out of order and he could not open it—I am not quite sure whether it was on board the Kinfauns Castle or the Melrose—the carpenter of the Kinfauns Castle opened the bag by putting the key to rights—when they were shifting from the Kinfauns Castle to the Melrose the bag and basket and other things were taken on board—I could not say positively that I took the bag on board—I took the things inte the cabin with me, but I do not know who took them on the Kinfauns Castle—I really cannot remember whether I took the bag on board or not—I took a

lot of parcels with me—I heard my husband and O'Donnell calling for drink—I had not seen more drink on that occasion than usual—my child was ailing in some way and I went to look after him—the sound like a soda-water bottle did not attract my attention—I then heard the second shot, and the third one was fired just as I went out, and he fell into my arms—he was rushing into the cabin—my son was in the saloon when the second and third shots were fired—I was coming out when I heard the third shot, and extending my arms to him.

By the COURT. The third shot was fired as he was rushing into the saloon—I did not go on shore at Cape Town, excepting in the night, about 5 or 6 o'clock—we were going to a theatre—that was Friday.

By MR. RUSSELL. When I got to the theatre I found it shut—I was with O'Donnell, my husband, and four of my children—my husband went out after dinner on the Saturday for a short time—we had dinner at 12 o'clock—when he went ashore he had with him the eldest boy and the little girl—I do not remember how long he was away, but I think he returned about 4 or 5 o'clock—he was, as far as I know, up town during the interval; at all events he was not in the ship—I am pretty clear in my recollection—they went to see about the town—O'Donnell made some statement to me with reference to the sale by him of a revolver—I do not remember whether this was said in answer to any question put to him by my husband—I know he used the words, and he said he bought it a year ago for that money, but I do not remember how the conversation began—I cannot remember the conversation; I have often tried to bring it to my mind, but I cannot do so.

NATHAN MARKS . I live at Cape Town, and am a hotel-keeper—I left Cape Town in the ship Melrose on 28th July for Port Elizabeth—when I went on board I saw James Power and the prisoner there—I was informed on board that Power was James Carey, on the Saturday before starting—on the Sunday afternoon after dinner I was sitting on the hatchway reading an English newspaper—Carey came and spoke to me, and asked me to lend him the newspaper, which I did—while he was looking at the newspaper his boy came up and spoke to him, and Carey left me and went downstairs—I afterwards followed him into the saloon—I went to get some beer, but I could not get it—when I went down I saw O'Donnell in the cabin—I heard a shot about half an hour after I went down—O'Donnell was sitting on the settee at the corner, near the companion steps—Carey and the prisoner were sitting about a yard from the steps—Carey was sitting by the side of the prisoner; a young woman was sitting a little way off—I saw one of the crew playing with the child—his boy was at the farther end of the cabin—I did not hear the words Carey and O'Donnell said, but I saw them talking together—O'Donnell was very quiet—I was up at the hatchway—when I was downstairs they were talking together in a quiet tone—I did not see anything like a quarrel between them—when I could not obtain the beer I went down for it—I then went upstairs and sat upon the hatchway, which was open, and I could see down into the cabin—I was waiting to see the beer come out—O'Donnell was very quiet—I saw Carey talking in a very high state—he was going on as if he was laying down the law, or something of that kind, and he had his hand in this way (describing)—I could not hear what was said—he was sitting down by the side of O'Donnell—about 10 minutes after I heard the report of a pistol, and, looking below, I saw

O'Donnell lowering his hand—I looked over the hatchway, and saw Carey making way towards his cabin—I then saw the motion of O'Donnell's hand up—I could not exactly discern the pistol, although I saw the smoke of it—I believe it was his left hand that was up—I did not see anything in Carey's hand—after the second shot was fired I ran down below, and while I was going down I heard a third shot—when I heard the second shot O'Donnell was sitting down on the corner of the settee, and the young woman was hugging him round the neck—Carey was standing up, looking towards the crew, with his face round, at the time of the first shot, a short distance from the foot of the ladder—I saw no violence on Carey's part—on my seeing the second shot fired Carey was making towards his cabin, going away from O'Donnell—I did not see the third shot fired; it was fired as I was going downstairs—when I got into the cabin I saw Carey fall on the deck at the end of the settee, by Mrs. O'Donnell—I saw Mrs. Carey too—I saw young Carey at the time; he was running about awfully excited—when I was looking through I saw him run into the cabin, and I saw Mrs. Carey come out—after Carey fell I rushed up on deck, went towards the galley, and asked one of the crew if he knew where the captain was—I went down below, and I was standing at the foot of the stairs—Mrs. Carey left the body and came in a grieving and frantic way, with her hands clasped, towards O'Donnell, and said "O'Donnell, why did you shoot my husband?"—O'Donnell put his hands out towards Mrs. Carey, and said "I could not help it, Mrs. Carey"—I then went to Mrs. Carey and drew her away from him, and said "You had better come away from him"—some few minutes after that O'Donnell was put in irons and handcuffed by the captain's orders—O'Donnell never made a complaint to me of an attack on him by Carey.

Cross-examined. After he made the statement to Mrs. Carey he seemed very horror-stricken, and looked dazed, as if he was in liquor; he looked bewildered—there was no difficulty in getting O'Donnell handcuffed, but there was a difficulty in getting the poor girl away from him—after he was handcuffed he was silent—Schofield told me that Power was in truth James Carey—I had not been on the Kinfauns Castle—the Argus paper, published at the Cape, was shown to me—it had been shown all over the boat—I went down at first to try and get some beer, and not being a saloon passenger I was not entitled to go below for it—I therefore went and sat near the skylights, which in fine weather were left open—I did not know at first what O'Donnell had in his hand, but from seeing smoke and hearing the report I thought it must be a pistol—I saw O'Donnell raise his hand, but did not see a pistol in Carey a hand—it was only by hearing the report and seeing the smoke that I thought it was a pistol—when I looked down into the saloon Carey and O'Donnell were sitting together about 10 minutes before the first shot was fired; O'Donnell was apparently quiet, and Carey was talking in a very high state, as if he were laying down the law—he was making gestures, and talking in a very confidential way—from the settee on which O'Donnell was sitting to the side of the cabin which opened into the hatch the distance was not more than about a yard—before the first shot was fired, Carey, who was not more than a yard from O'Donnell, was seated on the settee on the starboard side, and Carey was standing against the side or partition of the saloon—Carey was sitting originally side by side with O'Donnell on the settee—he got up and stood against the partition, and turned round

towards the companion side of the saloon—O'Donnell did not alter his position at that time—Carey was standing, and O'Donnell was sitting down, facing him.

By the COURT. One was sitting and one was standing, but Carey's face was looking towards the companion ladder—it was some few minutes when I saw Carey get up and speak in a high state—it might be 7, or 8, or 10 minutes—when I heard the second shot Carey was staggering away—I then rushed out, and on my way down I heard the third shot—I swear O'Donnell said to Mrs. Carey "I could not help it"—she was in awful grief, and directly I saw him come towards her I went up.

Re-examined. Schofield and I were standing together examining our paper, and he said "Do you see that fellow there?" pointing towards Carey—I said "Yes"—he said "That is Carey the informer"—I hardly believed it—he was then playing with one of the children—when he turned his face round I recognised him by the portraits—Carey's face was looking towards the companion ladder, where the boatswain was playing with his child—I should think this was 5 or 10 minutes before the first shot was fired—when I looked after the first shot was fired he was staggering towards his cabin sideways—when he was looking towards his child it was after the time I saw him laying down the law—he was standing then, and quiet—that was some time before the shot was fired—from that time to the time of hearing the shot I did not see anything approaching a disturbance between the two men.

ROBERT THOMAS CUBITT . I live at King's Arms Street, North Walsham, Norfolk—I assist my father, an ironmonger—I and my brother, Frank Cubitt, were passengers on board the Kinfauns Castle, going to the Cape—I saw Carey and O'Donnell together on board during the voyage—I did not know until my arrival at the Cape that James Power was James Carey—they appeared to be on friendly terms—we arrived at Cape Town on Friday, 27th July, and I stayed there, and put up at the White House Hotel—on the afternoon the Melrose left, which was on Saturday, I went into a wine and beershop, and the keeper of the shop made a statement to me in relation to James Carey—he gave me this document with a likeness of Carey. (This was a supplement given away with the "Weekly Freeman" of May 5; in one corner was "He swears in his victims" in another corner, "Look to the man in the grey suit," in another "He informs," and in another corner, "Crown witness," with a portrait of James Carey in the centre.) I recognised that likeness as representing James Power, the man on board—I went with my brother to the docks from which the Melrose was to start—my brother has since died—I saw O'Donnell standing on the docks at the side near the Melrose—I said to him "Have you seen the portrait of Carey?"—I produced it, and showed it to him—he said "I will shoot him"—he asked me for it, and I think he put it in his pocket—he went on board the Melrose, and I believe she sailed about a quarter of an hour after the interview referred to—I did not go on to Port Elizabeth—I remained some time at the Cape with my brother—I then returned to this country—I met with an accident in an explosion that took place a few weeks ago—I have lately given this information.

Cross-examined. I heard of Carey's death very soon after it occurred, when I was at Cape Town—I did not know of any inquiry being held at Port Elizabeth while I was there—I afterwards learnt that there had been one—I put myself in communication with the solicitors representing

the prosecution after I got home in October—I knew as far back as July when I should probably get back to this country—I stayed three weeks at the Cape—I should have stayed longer if there had been a favourable opportunity in business—I made up my mind to come back again three weeks after I had been there—that would be about August—I did not then make any communication to the solicitors—I did not then communicate with the officials here, until they sent for me, which, I should think, was about a fortnight after I had got home—I think the Cape authorities saw my brother at Cape Town, where he died—as far as I observed the prisoner was a quiet, peaceable man, of few words—he was rather popular on board with the steerage and second-class passengers, and was a civil-spoken man—I did not see much of Carey—I should say he was rather excitable—I do not know of a man named McHardy being on board the Kinfauns Castle—I had not seen Carey in liquor or drinking, or heard him indulge in abuse of any people or person—I had very little to do with him, I had more to do with the prisoner—I have seen him use his revolver in the presence of the passengers, when he has fired at birds and fish—I heard Carey pretty freely discussed at the Cape, and abused—when the prisoner said that he would shoot him it was in a pleasant manner, smiling at the time, and when I heard of Carey's death I did not attribute any moment to those words.

Re-examined. My brother was with me when the words were spoken—after my arrival home in this country I found my brother had made a communication to the Cape authorities, who had communicated with the authorities here.

RICHARD EDWARE BEECHER . I was the second officer of the Melrose on sunday, the 29th July—in the afternoon I was officer of the watch, and was on the bridge when I heard a shot fired—that was about a quarter to 4 o'clock—I at once got off the bridge and went down into the second saloon—before I got into the saloon I heard two more shots—there was a longer interval between the first and second shots than there was between the second and third—I heard the two second shots as I was going along the deck—when I got into the saloon I saw the prisoner sitting on the stern side of the cabin, on the settee—the boatswain was with him—I went up and laid hold of him by the right wrist first from behind—I saw the boatswain take a pistol from the left side pocket of his coat—the boatswain handed me a pistol like this (produced)—on looking at it I found three of the chambers had been recently discharged and two loaded—we did not find any more arms upon the prisoner; we found a knife or something like that, but nothing of any consequence—I saw a cartridge some time after in the bath-room—I took it out of his waistcoat-pocket—the prisoner had been in the bath-room for some time—he was taken there—it was a similar cartridge to this—it appeared to fit the small revolver—I did not try it—it struck me it would fit it—I did not see Carey till I went along the table—I saw him there, injured—I saw Mrs. Carey first there—I saw young Carey afterwards—from what I heard I felt young Carey some short time afterwards on deck—I found on him a pistol similar to that produced—it is an English pistol, which is commonly described as a "bull-dog" pistol—I asked young Carey what he was going to do with it—I took it down immediately and gave it to the purser—when I caught hold of him, which I did rather roughly, and was taking the pistol away, he said "Do not be frightened, I am not going

to hurt any one"—afterwards I saw the prisoner's box in his cabin, which was examined—Captain Ross was there when it was done.

Cross-examined. I could not say I found in his box a galvanic battery; when I first saw the box the chief officer was going to take it out, and I said "Take care, it may be something dangerous," and he took it out and opened it a little bit, and did not like to open it any more—there were a lot of things inside, machinery stuff—I held it at arm's length and took it to the captain's cabin, and the doctor said he would not open it—we did not try to open it again, and we put our ears to it, and we were all rather frightened, so we tied it to the end of a rope and threw it overboard—I have heard since that it was a battery used for the prisoner's hand—there is something the matter with his left hand, I think—I cannot say what—I could see that it was smaller than the other one—the Melrose steers from the bridge—the skylight of the second cabin is right below the lower bridge, if you stand amidships—there is a hatch between the companion and the skylight—the main hatch is something like 10 feet long—I was on the bridge when I heard the first shot—I heard the other two shots when I was going towards the cabin, between the time I left the bridge and reached the cabin-door—there was a momentary interval between the first and second shots, and then the second and third shots came quicker—it was from a passenger that I had the information that the boy had a pistol—I cannot recollect whether I asked young Carey if he had a pistol—I think he must have denied having a pistol, and I searched him—I did not find one, and I turned to the passenger who asserted that the boy had one—I asked the boy then, I think, if he had a pistol, and I think he denied it; but I felt him down again, and then found one on him—I asked him why he had it, and he said something about his being afraid that his mother might do some hurt to some one with it—after that I asked him why he did not shoot O'Donnell, and the boy said "Perhaps I should not have shot O'Donnell; but I might have shot you or the captain," meaning that he might have shot us by accident—I have often spoken to him since about his having the pistol, and he has always given the same reason—I may have said that this revolver was a six-chambered revolver, but that must have been a mistake of mine, and that it was loaded only in five chambers—I saw it loaded in five chambers—I looked at it hastily, for a minute—I had handed it to the purser, and as a result of that look at it I said it was a six-chambered revolver.

Re-examined. The Melrose is a colonial boat, and does not come to this country—she is between 500 and 600 tons—I did not know before I came over that any question was raised as to the identity of the pistol—I do not suppose it was in my possession a minute—it looked just like the one produced—whatever pistol it was, I saw one in the hands of Inspector Cherry which I believe to be the same—I assume all the things were given to Cherry by the purser in the captain's cabin at Port Elizabeth on the following day—there were two pistols amongst them—at the time the pistol was taken from young Carey I thought there were six chambers, when I just glanced at it, and that one was empty—I said so when I was examined before the Magistrate, and also at Port Elizabeth, I believe—I have no reason to believe that statement was incorrect, except that this pistol (produced) has only five chambers—I gave the pistol that I took from him to Mr. Gundry, the purser; he is at the

Cape—Weeks and Co., of Dublin, made the pistol—the maker's name on that pistol which was taken from O'Donnell is "Martin" or "Marlin, Newhaven, Connecticut"—the boy denied that he had a pistol with him—when I heard the first shot I was standing on the lower bridge—I went as fast as I could off the deck—I had left the bridge when I heard the second shot—I had moved about a couple of yards lower down on the deck between the first and second shots—it would take about three seconds to get down from the bridge to the deck—before I heard the second shot I had got on to the deck towards the ladder leading to the saloon—there were about seven or eight steps to the ladder.

JAMES ROSE . I am master of the steamship Melrose, one of Donald Currie and Co.'s vessels, and I produce the certificate of registration relating to that vessel (The document was handed in)—the ship was built in Greenock and registered in London—on Sunday, 29th July, about a quarter to 4, when on the high seas, I was sent for into the second saloon cabin and found the prisoner and a young woman with him—I saw a man whom I knew as James Power lying down on the deck, and Mr. Parish attending to him—Power was bleeding very much in the neck—there was no surgeon attached to the ship, but there was a Dr. Everitt on board, and he was sent for to attend to him—he died in about a quarter of an hour—I ordered the prisoner to be put in irons and secured, and afterwards went into the cabin and found a sea-trunk there; the name on it was "O'Donnell" or "McDonnell"—it was searched, and an old revolver in a leather belt was found—it was an old-fashioned pistol—there was also a small tin case of cartridges, which appeared to belong to the revolver—I saw the things that were taken out of the trunk and the electrical machine thrown overboard—on the arrival of the vessel at Port Elizabeth the matter was at once reported to the authorities—Inspector Cherry came on board, and O'Donnell was then given into his custody—Carey's body was taken on shore in the police boat, the same boat as the prisoner—the sea trunk and its contents were also put in the boat, and sent the following day to the Customs, who took charge of it—the vessel was about 25 miles south of Cape St. Blaize, in latitude 33 or 34, and longitude 54 or 55.

Cross-examined. I personally superintended the search of the prisoner's luggage which consisted of clothes and this small box and pistol and some ammunition belonging to the pistol—the sea trunk was one of those American trunks—the name "O'Donnell" or "McDonnell," I am not certain which, was on it—the trunk is in the possession of the authorities—when it was sent on shore it was lashed up with a rope.

Re-examined. There were some papers with his luggage, which were put into the box—it was lashed up by Inspector Cherry, and the room sealed up.

JOHN CHERRY . I am Chief Inspector of Police at Port Elizabeth—on Monday, 30th July, I had some information which caused me to go on board the Melrose, which arrived there on that day—I took the prisoner into custody, and took him ashore with the body of the deceased—I received on board these two pistols (produced) from the purser—I believe Captain Rose was present, and Beecher—three chambers of the American pistol were discharged, and the two cartridges with which it was loaded I took out on receiving it—I also received this bullet, which appears to have been discharged (produced)—I believe this was

picked up in the cabin—it would fit the smaller pistol of the two—I afterwards received at the Custom House a box marked "P. O'D." on one end, and on the other end "P. O'Donnell"—it was lashed up when I received it—I took possession of its contents—there was this purse (produced) and a small bag which was in the purse, and contained a silver dollar and some small coin, also a picture of Carey in the purse—I also found this extract from a newspaper—there were some different papers and photographs and a naturalisation paper—I heard the prisoner make this statement at Port Elizabeth. (Read: "I am not guilty of murder; what I did was in self-defence. Mr. Carey pulled the revolver out of his right-hand pocket. I snatched it out of his hand.—Patrick O'Donnell, by his mark.") The statement was made at the conclusion of the case—the prisoner was represented by Mr. O'Brien, who cross-examined the witnesses.

Cross-examined. Mr. Beecher's statement at Bow Street about this pistol that was taken from young Carey was that it was a six-chambered one, with one of the chambers empty—all five chambers were loaded—I took the cartridges out—the proceedings at Port Elizabeth are similar to what they are here.

FREDERICK ENSOR . I am district surgeon at Port Elizabeth—on Monday, 30th July, I saw the body of a man being carried through the streets at Port Elizabeth—Inspector Cherry and Dr. Everitt were there—the next day I saw the body at the new gaol—on Tuesday morning I made a post-mortem examination in the presence of Dr. Everitt, who died shortly after—I found the body presented three bullet wounds—the one in the neck was about the centre of the windpipe, a little to the left—it passed under the superficial muscle of the neck, wounding a large vein in its transit—it cut the collar of his jacket—the other two wounds were at the back—one was on a level with the upper border of the shoulder-blade, about three inches from the spine—the second bullet wound was at the lower angle of the shoulder blade, some distance from the spine—I found that the upper bullet had cut through the second rib behind, and had wounded the upper part of the lung, and made its way out at the chest, between the fourth and fifth rib, and had lodged immediately under the nipple, from which I removed it—this is the bullet (produced)—the second bullet in the back had wounded the lower part of the lung, gone through the diaphragm, traversed the stomach, which was half full of food, and nearly cut the left kidney in two, wounding the large blood-vessels—there was a considerable quantity of blood in the left pleura, and the abdomen contained a large quantity of blood, staining the intestines—after a minute search I could not find the bullet—it was lost in the pelvis or the back—Mrs. Carey and her son afterwards saw the body, and I attended the funeral—the fatal wound was the third one—they were all serious.

Cross-examined. The first wound probably was enough to cause death unless active surgical aid was available—the first bullet entered between what is commonly called Adam's apple and the base of the throat—that is a little to the right of what is commonly called the throttle of the throat—the bullet came out by this big muscle on the neck, under the oblique muscle, cutting the collar of the coat—it was nearly horizontal (The witness pointed out the positions of the wounds)—the second bullet entered about the left shoulder—it cut through the rib opposite—it lodged in the breast,

in the nipple; you could feel it with your finger—it was oblique from above downwards—the nipple is lower than the second rib behind—the third was by the point of the shoulder blade, about the same distance from the spine—it entered and went through the lower part of the lung, through the large muscle separating the chest from the belly, and through the stomach, and then it was diverted by some means, and passed down into the kidney, cutting the big blood-vessels, and was lost somewhere in the contents of the belly or the muscles of the spine—the direction would be from above, downwards—the wound in the neck was about horizontal—I think it is possible the wound in the neck might have been delivered by a man who was firing with his elbow at his side, seated, and the man at whom he was firing might be a man of 5 feet 10 inches in height standing up, but I do not think the other two could have been—I think the man who was shot might have been standing up as to two of them—it entered the throat, and came out a little more at the side, in a horizontal line—a man who fired with his elbow at his side, or a man who fired seated, and the man at whom he fired being 5 feet 10 inches high, would cause the wound inflicted in the neck to be horizontal—the bullet might have been diverted from an oblique course by a tendon, or the side of the windpipe, or a muscle—I made a minute examination, but did not find anything to suggest that there was anything to cause a diversion of the bullet—I examined the prisoner in gaol at Port Elizabeth, and found his left arm was limited in its movements at the elbow joints by an old injury—the muscles of the hand were wasted, and the little finger was contracted—the left hand and arm were very much disabled—the palm of the right hand was hard and horny, like the hand of a man accustomed to hard, muscular work—he could hold things in his left hand in a clumsy way—the elbow was injured in childhood—that was the prisoner's statement—the wasted condition of the forearm was due to the straining in lifting a heavy packet of hay, and a good deal of the waste would be attributable to the enforced disuse of the arm—I made an examination of Carey, and found that he was a powerful man about 5 feet 10 inches in height, heavy bones and strong muscles, big square shoulders; in fact a big-boned man—he was a corpulent man, well nourished, and in a healthy condition compared to the prisoner—he was a much more powerful man—there was no comparison between them.

Re-examined. I have had a good deal of experience of shooting cases, both in the size of pistol balls and rifle balls; and it is my experience that a bullet often takes a very erratic course and is diverted by a very slight obstacle, I could not predict the exact course it would take—as to Carey staggering and bending as he walked, that would not make any difference in the opinion I formed that the man who shot him must be standing up—the prisoner had a perfect use of his right hand, he could not fire so rapidly with his left hand as his right—he had not sufficient free movement to use the pistol with his left hand—it is rather difficult sometimes in excitement to hit an object although it might be close.

JOHN MALLAM . I am Superintendent of Police in Dublin—I was aware of the intention of Carey to leave the country—he was sent away—I gave him a revolver in Kilmainham Gaol on 3rd July—I obtained that from Charles Weeks, of Essex Quay, Dublin.

Cross-examined. I knew James Carey very well, and was present at the trial which followed the Phoenix Park murders—Carey was a

muscular man, a big man about 5 feet 10 inches in height—there were several investigations made before the Magistrates, before Carey appeared to give evidence against Curley, Kelly, and Brady—it was a little later than the 19th January that I heard of the part he took in the Phoenix Park murders—I heard him state that he had gone there to act the part of "setter" or "pointer" as to Mr. Burke who was murdered, and that he looked at his watch in order to get on the car and time an alibi—I also took down in writing that he said to Curley, Kelly, and Brady, and a man called Mullet, "Mind the man with the grey suit"—that was before he was examined as a witness—I heard him state that he afterwards went to a meeting, when a resolution was passed expressing sympathy with the relations of the murdered men and their abhorrence of the crime—I heard him say that he was connected with several attempts on Mr. Forster's life—I cannot say why the Crown dealt with Carey as they did—so far as I know he never received a pardon—my impression of him was that he was very excitable—I do not know of my own knowledge that he was affecting to be a very religious man, but generally rumour had it—he stated so—the night he was arrested he told me as one reason why he could not be in a particular place, that he was attending some religious service—I did not hear after arrangements were made for his leaving the country or before, of his abusing the Government—he did not complain to me—complaints did not come to me officially to my knowledge—from my knowledge of Carey, when he left my custody and control he was a desperate man utterly regardless of human life—he expressed regret at the murder of Lord Frederick Cavendish, but not any one else—he said it was not a murder but that it was only a "removal" that was justifiable, that it was removing tyrants—he bandied with Counsel in that strain—I do not remember the particular expression, that it was not the slightest crime to remove Mr. Burke—it appeared by his admissions and evidence that he was the man who swore in and pledged the murderers by whom the murders were committed—some of these men were of superior position and class to his own—James Mullet and Dan Curley were his equals—Mullet was not tried for murder—I heard Carey say that he suggested the knives which had been the instruments of the murders in Phoenix Park should be sent to the Exhibition in Dublin—he did not complain to me of the money he got from the Government.

Re-examined. The murders in which it was supposed he was implicated were of a political character—when he spoke of murder being no crime, he was speaking of "removing tyrants," representing the English Government, or persons connected with the Government—he at all times took great care to prevent himself being detected, and he was very chary of his own life—I never knew him to commit a daring open murder for which I could arrest him he gave evidence against his fellows in crime, and thereby escaped being tried, and probably executed—I take it for granted that was his reason—all he said and did was so execrated by the Irish people that I had to take care to protect him from their violence, and that was the reason for his removal from Dublin.

RICHARD EDWARD BEECHER (Recalled). When I went down into the saloon it was not dark; it was rather dark going down from the daylight—it was not getting dusk; it was bright sunlight on the bridge, but going down into the saloon made it appear dark—the skylights were open; the sides were left up for the purpose of ventilation.

JOHN CHERRY (Re-examined). When I had charge of the prisoner on board the ship, he asked me if he could see the little girl; that was the way in which he spoke of her—he said so long as she was landed there he did not care—he said he did not want her to be carried on.

Cross-examined. I am a married man—I do not, as a rule, speak of my wife as little girl or little woman.

DR. ENSOR (Re-examined). When I made the post-mortem examination the whole face was swelled up from the beginning of decomposition, and on the chin were some black marks; powder grains I took them to be—the usual marks that unignited powder grains would make, as if the pistol had exploded against him; as if it was some grains of powder unexploded—I thought the pistol must have been thrust into his face—I think the two men must hive been close together.

The following witness was called for the defence:

WALTER YOUNG . I am a cab proprietor at Port Elizabeth—I always drive my own cab—I was born in that division—some time in August last I was engaged by the steward of the Melrose to drive some persons from the Court House—that was the first fare I had from there—I think I should know the man again—I don't think I have seen him since; he had rather a peculiar sort of nose—he engaged me to drive Mrs. Carey and one of the boys, Thomas Francis, or two of the boys—I won't be sure whether there were two of the boys in the cab—I drove them to Penfold's at Park Drive, he is a hairdresser—I took them there to see the rooms—I heard the steward mention the name when she got in—I left them there—I saw them afterwards—I drove them very often; I mean Mrs. Carey and Thomas Francis; he was always with her—I only took her on one occasion alone—they paid me; sometimes Penfold paid me—I think he paid me on two or three occasions—there is a water fountain about 10 paces in the rear of our cabstand—I remember one day meeting Thomas Francis at that place; I went to get a drink of water, and he came and took the mug out of my hand before I took it from the lion's mouth, and I said to him "You are a fine fellow; why did you not shoot O'Donnell when he shot your father?"—he said "I had not the revolver, but I went for to get it in the cabin, and when I got there it was gone, because my father had it"—I said "It is a bad job, quite likely you will have to go to England, if you had shot him there might be no more about it"—this was alter the inquiry before the Magistrate at Port Elizabeth—I spoke of this on the cabstand among all the cabmen.

Cross-examined by the ATTORNEY-GENERAL. I have one cab and four horses—I employ a groom to look after my stable—I could not say how many times I have driven Mrs. Carey and the lad; a great many; I suppose about a dozen or fifteen times—Mrs. Carey has spoken to me and I to her; I knew her very well by sight—she has asked me how my wife, Mrs. Young, was, when I have taken her and left her at Penfold's; not since I came to London—when I came into Court yesterday I knew her in a moment—I know no reason why she should not know me, or the boy either—I was panic-struck to think she should forget me in so short a time—I had never been to this country before—I came on purpose to give my evidence—I have no friends in this country or in Ireland—my father came from Kent and my mother from some part of Oxford I think—the investigation at Port Elizabeth created a good deal of excitement and was very

much talked about—I heard that young Carey had been examined in the Court—there are newspapers published at Port Elizabeth—I am no scholar—I could not talk about it to anybody, because I only heard what they spoke to; I listened and heard the conversation—I did not know that a pistol was in the possession of young Carey; I never heard that before the conversation with him—I did not know that he had a pistol—I merely asked him why he did not shoot O'Donnell—I did not know whether he had a pistol; I heard that he had a pistol; I heard people saying that he had a pistol—I did not know that he had—I did not hear from anybody whether he had a pistol or not—quite likely he had; I don't know for what purpose—I thought he might have got one quietly, or something of that sort; I could not say where he might get it from—I had not heard that there was a pistol near him to be obtained from any one; it was a mere guess of mine—if he had not had a pistol he could not have shot him; that is an evident case—I had not heard what he had said at the Court.

By the COURT. When I said to him "Why did you not shoot O'Donnell?" he said he had not the pistol, the revolver—he said "I had not the pistol"—he said "I had not had a pistol"—I am not aware that there is a difference—I think it was a pistol—I won't say whether I said just now a or the—what he said was "I had not a pistol, but I went for a pistol in the cabin; I went to get a pistol, to get the pistol, a pistol"—he said he went to the cabin for a pistol, and when he got there it was gone, his father had it—I don't know what I meant by saying "If you had shot him you would have heard no more about it"—it was just merely in conversation, in chaff like; I did not think it would come to anything; it was just merely as talk—I thought if anybody was to shoot my father I should take the law into my own hands—I don't know whether he ought to have shot him—that was my view if he had anything to do it with.

By the ATTORNEY-GENERAL. There is a Mr. O'Brien, a solicitor, in Port Elizabeth—I just merely told Mr. O'Brien what conversation took place between me and the boy, when he asked me—I did not go to him; he sent for me; that was on the Saturday the Northern Castle left—I left on Monday, 5th November, and the boat left on the Saturday—I had often seen Mr. O'Brien before—I had not mentioned a word to him before the Saturday night—I have driven him home to his meals—I knew he was the solicitor defending O'Donnell—we all had a turn in driving him—I never mentioned this conversation to him before the Saturday before the vessel sailed for England—this murder was talked about a great deal at Port Elizabeth—there were lots of passengers in the steamer I came by—there were a few from the Bay—I don't know who was connected with this case—there was a woman on board, Mrs. O'Donnell; she came with me in the boat—she did not land with me; I don't know where she got off; I got off in London—she got off before me; I don't know the place; it was a big city; it was not in London; it was in England; I think it was two days before I came here, I am not sure—I did not go on board at Port Elizabeth; I got on board at Cape Town—I don't know where Mrs. O'Donnell came on board; I saw her when the vessel had been out two or three days—I went to Cape Town to join the vessel—the vessel left Port Elizabeth at 4 o'clock on Saturday afternoon, and Mr. O'Brien sent for me at 7 o'clock on Saturday night, after coming from hunting—the vessel sailed before I left—I never knew of

coming to England till then—people have spoken when I have been talking about this pistol, "Perhaps you will have to go to England"—I had seen Mrs. O'Donnell in Port Elizabeth—I never drove her about; she never drove in cabs—I saw her walking in the street—I don't think I had seen her shortly before the vessel sailed—I took a letter up to where she was stopping from Mr. O'Brien's office; no, not from his office, I got it in Market Square.

Re-examined. I am 32 years of age—I was born in South Africa. at a place called Gampier River—I am not of Irish connections, I belong to the Church of England—I have no connection whatever with any Irish party or people—I never lived in any other place than Port Elizabeth—I am known by everybody there—I have carried on business as a cabdriver about 15 years—I was driving for a master 10 or 11 years, Mr. Kingsley—he is dead—he was a cab proprietor and had an hotel, the George and Dragon—when I saved a little money I bought a cab and horse of my own—I am married and have children—we have a cab stand where we stand—Mr. O'Brien has employed me the same as others; first come, first serve—Penfold let lodgings to Mrs. Carey; I could not say who engaged them—I remember the inquiry before the Magistrate at Port Elizabeth; I heard the matter talked about—when I said to young Carey "You are a fine fellow, why did not you shoot O'Donnell when he shot your father?" I said it in chaff—I spoke of this to my friends on the cab stand several times—I never volunteered to make this statement to Mr. O'Brien or anybody else on the part of the prisoner—I was sent for when I was in Market Square on my cab-box—Lyon, a cabman, came for me; he had been out with Mr. O'Brien and the Magistrate hunting, and when he dame back he told me that Mr. O'Brien wanted me—they were out hunting and he brought them home—they went out in the cab to shoot birds; we call that hunting there—that was on the Saturday, the same day the steamer left—she left about 4 o'clock—I got the message in the evening very late; it was dark, and I drove in my cab up to Mr. O'Brien's; up to that time I had no idea that I should have to come here to give evidence—I did not know what Mr. O'Brien wanted to see me for—I made a statement to him; he did not take it down in writing on the Saturday, he did on the Monday morning—he told me to come to his house and tell him, and then he took it down.

In the coune of MR. RUSSELL'S speech for the defence, he proposed to state in detail what he was instructed was the prisoner's account of the transaction in question. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL objected, as it was in effect making the Counsel in the ease himself a witness. MR. RUSSELL referred to Reg. v. Weston, tried before Lord Chief Justice Cockburn, and Reg. v. Lefroy, before Lord Chief Justice Coleridge, in support of the course he was pursuing.

MR. JUSTICE DENMAN considered the point so important, in view of the difference of opinion that existed on the subject, that if the objection was pressed he should reserve it for the opinion of the Court for the Consideration of Crown Cases Reserved. Under the circumstances, the ATTORNEY-GENERAL, rather than that should be done, withdrew the objection, and MR. RUSSELL was allowed to make the statement.



Before Mr. Recorder.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-76
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceNo Punishment > sentence respited

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76. JOSEPH JAMES HATTS (32) and WILLIAM CULFF (50) , Unlawfully conspiring to cheat and defraud Frederick James Hunt, and obtaining from him divers sums of money.

MR. BESLEY Prosecuted; MR. GEOGHEGAN appeared for Hatts, and MR. COLLINS, Q.C., for Culff.

FREDERICK JAMES HUNT . I am soap a manufacturer, of Bow Bridge, Stratford—I have been in business 13 or 14 years—my brother, who has a bone-crushing establishment near there, made a communication to me early in September, in consequence of which I observed what was going on—I usually leave for the City on Fridays at 2.30 or 3 o'clock—Hatts was a receiving foreman—Culff has been in the habit of bringing fat there about four years, and the average of my payments to him has been 15l.—I left it to Hatts to see to the weights—he had a book in which he was requested to enter them, and until my brother wrote to me I had no suspicion—the casks Culff brought were all about the same size, and those in this case were 31,32, and 30 inches deep—they are the same diameter—the tare was about 1/2 cwt., and the weight of the cask a little over 2 qrs.—a cask full of rough stuff would weigh about 3 cwt., which would mean 2 1/2 cwt. of fat—the tops of the casks were covered when brought in—Hatts would enter in the gate book everything which came into the place, the numbers but not the particulars—here is an entry in Hatts's writing on 12th September: "W. Culff, Stepney, seven casks of rough stuff, 3.9.20."—he puts the tare against each cask, varying from 2 qrs. 2 lb. to 5 qrs., and it amounts to 17l. 1s. 5d.—that is in Hatts's writing—after the rough stuff is melted the produce is entered in another book in Hatts's writing: "Produce, Sept 13, 1883, W. Culff, 17l. 1s. 10d."—he does not give the details—the result is 10.2.24, making a net weight of 8 cwt. 3 qrs. 15 lb.—that would represent the weight we should pay Culff for, viz., 12l. 17s. 7d.—I made up every week accounts of what I had had during the week—this account is made up in the usual way for the week ending 15th September; there were no other casks from Culff that week—on Wednesday, 26th September, I saw Culff in the clerk's office in reference to that 12l. 17s. 1d. cheque—I gave him the account, which was in the clerk's writing, copied from Hatts's book, and said "Seven casks of rough stuff, 17l. 1s. 10d., Mr. Culff, is that correct?" he said "I don't know, Sir; I leave that to you"—I said "I don't like people leaving it to us; if we made a mistake of 2 cwt., I suppose you would soon find it out?" he said "Yes"—I said "Look at that account and see if it is correct;" he looked at it and said "It is"—I handed him this cheque and said "Here is your cheque, 12l. 17s. 7d., receipt this account"—the words in the cheque were 12.16.7, and the figures 12l. 17s. 7d.—that was done purposely that the amount should differ, and he brought it back on Saturday, the 29th—I saw the seven casks in respect of which that cheque was given in the old engine-room, four on Tuesday, 11th September, and three on Thursday—I examined them, and the average was about 1 cwt. of fat in each—they were about half full—I did not weigh them or remove them—I know they were Culff's because all the other casks of kitchen stuff were marked in chalk by Hatts with the customer's

name, and these were not—the other three which I saw on the 13th were in the same condition—I estimated about 1 cwt. of rough stuff in each—I did not mark them then—they would be melted in the usual way—Hatts's figures were not true, they could not possibly produce 8 cwt. 3 qrs. 15 lb. of real fat because there was more melted fat than kitchen stuff—this is the gate book in Hatts's writing—his entry is "Tuesday, September 11th, W. Culff, four casks rough stuff out of four empties"—in Hatts's book of rough stuff here is on page 42, "September, 1883, W. Culff, 7 seven casks of rough stuff"—that is put down under date of Thursday, September 20th; the casks are entered 3 cwt. 0 qr. 7 lb., 2 cwt. 3 qrs. 4lb., 3 cwt. 0 qrs. 17 lb., 2 cwt. 2 qrs. 20 lb., 2 cwt. 2 qrs. 17 lb., 3 cwt. 0qr. 11 lb., 3 cwt. 1 qr. 3 lb., total 20 cwt. 3 qrs. 23 lb; tare, 4 cwt. 0qr. 8 lb., which carries out 16 cwt. 3 qrs. 15 lb.—under that is an entry of a cask of melted stuff, but he did not bring in any melted stuff—there is an entry of fat received by weight—here is an entry at folio 422 of rough stuff; "Bought of Culff 16 cwt. 3 qrs. 15 lb."—Culff brought in four casks that week—I examined them in the old engine room on 18th September with a three-foot rule; one measured 16 inches, one 18, one 5, one 5 1/2—I put the rule to the bottom, but I did not move the casks—the total of the four was 3 1/2 cwt., and the whole lot could have been put into one cask and would have about filled it—it was in a loose state before it was melted, and there would be no difficulty in turning the one of 5 1/2 into the one of 5; and if they had put the 15-inch one in there would only have been 20 inches of stuff there—I kept an eye on them and measured them two, three, or four times a day—no other casks came from Culff that week—here is an entry in the gate book, "Tuesday, September 17th, W. Culff, four casks rough stuff;" that is a mistake, Saturday was the 18th and it is carried over on the 17th—that is the only entry of Culff's that week—I next saw Culff on the 29th, when he returned the cheque—I handed him the account and said, "17 casks of rough stuff, 17.3.15"—he said "Yes"—I said "You don't vary the amount much"—he said "No"—I handed him a cheque; I said the former cheque was a mistake—I had this 17 written in, and initialled it and returned it him, and he took them both away—my clerk, Farthing had measured the casks in my presence and my measurements were verified—it is not true that 16 cwt. 3 qrs. 3 lb. was delivered that week by Culff—none of Culff's fat was melted, but a cask of our own fat was credited to him—on October 1st at 2.30 p.m. I told Hatts that I was not satisfied with the correctness of the rough stuff and should have it all re-weighed—he weighed it, I checked the weights, and Farthing put them down—we weighed 25 or 30 casks, and when we had finished I said "I want to see Culff's fat weighed"—he appeared confused, and then we began weighing five casks of Culff's rough stuff; four of them were weighed, they were not marked with chalk as the others were—I said "Where is the fifth cask?"—he said "It has been missing since Wednesday"—I said "I know that to be a lie, the first cask you brought in last Wednesday was one which I had seen you take the fat out of and put it into Culff's (he took it from one of Carrington's casks, I came in while he was doing it)—I told him that two of the casks which he brought out to be weighed were two which had been delivered by Culff a fortnight before the 18th—I knew that as they had my mark on them—I had marked them with a piece of paper with three strokes, outside

and a piece of paper in one cask inside—I said "If you doubt what I say look at the casks, and you will see my mark on them"—he said that it was so—he had mixed them up with what came in on the 24th—four other casks are entered as coming in on the 24th, but two of them are casks which I had marked in the week ending September 24th—those were the 16 and the 18 inch, some rough stuff had been put into one of them—I said "You had better come into the office and I will tell you some more"—he said "Ever since Rowland left"—we went into the office—the officers were there, and I said "I presume you know who these two gentlemen are?"—he said "Yes"—Beale said "I presume you know who we are, we are two police officers; it will be better for you if you speak the truth," and I said "You had better speak the truth."(MR. GEOGHEGAN submitted that in Reg. v. Garner five (2 Car and Kir 920) Judges had held that these very words excluded a statement, and therefore the evidence could not begiven. (See Reg. v. Rowe and Reg. v. Jarvis Law Reports 96).

MR. BESLEY contended that modern decisions did not exclude such evidence, and referred to Reg. v. Reeve, 1 Crown Cases Reserved, in which LORD CHIEF BARON KELLY decided that if there was no promise of advantage and no threat of disadvantage the evidence was admissible.

THE RECORDER received the evidence but reserved the point. I said to Hatts "I know what has been going on between you and Culff for some time"—he then admitted that the fifth cask which he had got down in his book had never come into the place, that only four casks were delivered by Culff in the week ending September 22nd, and that of the seven casks which came in in the week ending September 15th three were only a quarter full and four half full—I then made this memorandum against the entry in the book: "3 a quarter full, 4 half full, and for this lot Culff gave me 8s."—he also said "I have been in the habit of adding 3 cwt. per week to the weight of rough stuff brought in by Culff, and he gave me sometimes 7s. and sometimes 8s. a week, and sometimes 9s.; it was given to me when Culff came to the factory wrapped in a piece of paper"—I said "How long has this been going on?"—he said "I have been doing this ever since Rowland left"—I turned to the pay sheet and found that Rowland had left two years—I asked him how it commenced—he said "After Rowland left I received a letter from him asking me to call at his house; I went, and there I met Culff; Rowland said to me 'If you want to make a few shillings a week you can do it with Culff; I have been having a few shillings;' I said 'Is any one else in the factory concerned in it?' he said 'Not with me, but I think Allshorne knows about it'"—that is the man who used to unload Culff's fat with him—he seemed to think that I did not believe him, and he said "Let Culff be sent for"—I sent a messenger to Culff and waited till about 7 o'clock, but he did not come—I had told my bankers to stop both the amended and the new cheque—I did not see Culff till he was taken in custody on 3rd October—he had not been to me about his stopped cheque in the interval, nor had I had any conversation with either of them.

Cross-examined by MR. GEOGHEGAN. Hatts came to me with an excellent character—I put down the conversation as he said it—I did not hear one constable say to him "Yes, it would be better for you to tell the truth"—I said at the police-court "I will not swear the police-officer did not say 'Yes, it will be better for you," but I have since thought over the matter, and I am sure he did not—no other part of the conversation was reduced into writing—he appeared very nervous—I have about 46

men, and he had six under him—he kept the stock book and the time sheet and looked over the wharf—I buy tallow in the City—he was receiving foreman, and had to enter all fat in a book.

Cross-examined by MR. COLLINS. Culff did not come back, but I received a letter from his solicitor dated the 2nd; that was after the warrant against Culff was out, and he knew that Hatts was in custody—Culff was the only man who brought rough stuff in his own van, our own men go out collecting for different people—Culff would ascertain the net product from the entries made by Hatts in our books—he would be bound by that—we melt every day, and Hatts has charge of the melting department—in a large number of instances as soon as the rough stuff is brought in it is melted—Hatts would put the casks in the old engine-room—there were no other casks of rough stuff there, there was soda and soft soap—I know that because we check the whole of the stuff in the place daily—Alshorne assisted Hatts at the steam crane in unloading the casks—they should be weighed as they are handed in, and put down in the books—they came in between 7.30 and 8 o'clock—on 13th September three more were placed in the engine-room—they were brought before breakfast, I believe; I saw them soon afterwards—I had the stuff emptied on to the floor fox three weeks before it was put in the pans to be melted, and as soon as it was in the pans I knew what we had got, and checked the stock—the carman puts the chalk mark on, and no other casks were unmarked in September or October during the time I was keeping watch—the casks are petroleum barrels—I drew the cheque intentionally wrong, and altered it for him when he brought it back.

Re-examined. The rough fat and the melted fat only vary 20 lb. in the cwt.—1 cwt. 3 qrs. make about 1 cwt. of melted fat; they can always tell what they have to receive.

WILLIAM FARTHING . I am Mr. Hunt's ledger-keeper—in consequence of a request made to me I watched Culff on Tuesday, September 18th, and saw him enter the yard at 7.45 a.m. with a hired van and four casks covered with a cloth—Hatts was upstairs at the loop-hole, and he and Alshorne received them when they were lifted up by the crane—Culff went away a few minutes afterwards and took some empty casks—as soon as the place was cleared I went up and had a look at the casks—there was no chalk mark on them; two had very little in them, and the other two were about half full—a few minutes afterwards Mr. Hunt and I inspected them—they were measured in my presence on the Saturday between 2 and 3 o'clock, after the men had left the factory—one measured 5 inches, one 5 1/2, one 15, and I think the other 16; the total weight was about 2 1/2 or 3 cwt., they would not weigh 3 cwt. net—they were not entered in Hatts's book then—they were left in the engine-room, and have never been melted yet—I was there on the 26th, when Culff came, and heard part of the conversation—Mr. Hunt said "Is this account correct, Mr. Culff?"—he said "I don't know, Sir; I suppose so"—he then took the account out of his pocket and referred to it—Mr. Hunt said "You would soon know if we paid you for a hundredweight short"—he said "Yes, Sir, that I should"—I can swear those words were used, I picked up a piece of paper and scribbled them down—I was present on the 29th, when Culff came again, and made a note of what passed—Mr. Hunt said "You managed to keep up the quantity pretty well, Mr. Culff"—four casks had been delivered by Culff that week, on the 18th, and no

others, and those are the ones I measured—I was present on October 1, when Hatts was before his master, who said he was not satisfied, and we entered the weights on a board—Hatts only produced four casks instead of five, and the first two we weighed were part of the four which came in on the 18th, which were supposed to have been melted, and the cheque given, and he put them forward as two of the others—Mr. Hunt said "Where is the fifth cask?"—he said "It has been missing since Wednesday, Sir"—Mr. Hunt said "Let us have no lies, Hatts; you know that cask never came into the place, and you know that no stuff has been melted this week"—I understood Hatts to say "That is so," but he was a few yards from me—Mr. Hunt said "You had better come down to the office with me, and I shall be able to tell you a good deal more about this affair than you think for," and followed them to the office, where Mr. Hunt said "When did these two casks come in you have just weighed?"—I said "Tuesday, the 18th"—he said "When did you measure them and mark them?"—I said "On the 22nd"—he said "You hear that, Hatts?"—he said "That is so," or "I am sorry to say that is so."

Cross-examined by MR. COLLINS. Mr. Hunt did not mark them in my presence till the 22nd, but they were marked before that with a little piece of paper stuck in between a chink, and another under a hoop—I believe the four casks to form part of the seven—I saw them on the Saturday week after they came in—they weighed about 6 cwt. 2 qrs. 9 lb. gross—the tare is not marked on them—I made this memorandum on the following Saturday week, the 29th—it is dated 22/9/83; that is when we measured them, and the weights were added on Saturday—this "18" is run through—the depths of the casks are 5, 5 1/2, 17, and 18, but the 18 is wrong.

Re-examined. The casks I measured were the same as those I weighed on the Saturday—I was observing Culff on the Monday—he brought in no casks between those dates—I corrected the wrong measurement—only four were weighed.

FREDERICK JOHN ALSHORNE . I am in Mr. Hunt's employ—I assisted in unloading the casks from Culff's van on 18th September—he brought four—I landed them—the whole four weighed about 2 1/2 cwt.—I did not see him bring any others that week—they went up to the loop-hole by the steam crane—Hatts was there—I have seen the same casks there since.

Cross-examined by MR. COLLINS. I have not thought about the weight particularly since—they were brought between 8 and 8.30—I hooked them on the crane in the van—it was my duty or Hatts's to take the bag off them.

Re-examined. I have received beer money from the prisoners—I handled most all of Culff's casks—they were not full—sometimes they were a quarter or half full, but very rarely three parts.

JOSEPH KEABLE . I have worked Mr. Hunt's hydraulic press for six years—I succeeded Rowland, who left two years ago—before he left Culff's rough stuff was 7 to 8 cwt. a week before melting, it would come down to 5 cwt. in melting—in the two years some of Culff's casks have been full, and some not—sometimes I have had three full, three part full, and one or two half full, and the others about a quarter full—I generally used to melt on Friday—Hatts sent Culff's casks down to me.

Cross-examined by MR. COLLINS. A full cask would weigh 3 cwt. gross—I did not say 5 cwt. before the Magistrate—the melted fat would weigh

about 5 cwt.—I have always seen the customers' names on the casks—Culff's were not marked, but all the others were—I melt the fat, but do not keep an account of it.

Re-examined. I received directions from Hatts to melt Culff's fat and pack it into casks—I have packed it in 3 cwt. casks for a long time—those are the same size as it comes in—I had packed it in large casks about three months before the case commenced, by Hatts's directions, and he told me to fill them up with our stock, fat belonging to Mr. Hunt—that has been going on about three months.

JAMES FARLEY . I attend to the meltings when Keeble is away—they are on Fridays—Hatts has sent me Culff's fat to melt on Friday afternoons usually, after Mr. Hunt left—between 7 cwt. and 8 cwt. of rough stuff generally came down on Friday—Hatts gave me no directions about it.

Cross-examined by MR. COLLINS. We only melt one day in the week—there is another melting-room upstairs—I have nothing to do with that—I cannot tell you any customer who sent fat, besides Culff, or how much they send.

Re-examined. I am in the press room—fat brought by the collectors does not come there at all—fat has to be accounted for according to what it produces—Hatts told me when Culff'e fat was coming down.

WILLIAM BEALE (Detective, Criminal Investigation Department). About October 1, I was called on to go to Mr. Hunt's—I had been in communication with him a fortnight or three weeks—I had seen Culff almost daily—when I got there Hatts was brought in—Mr. Hunt said to him "I have a suspicion that something is going on wrong between you and Culff in bringing fat"—I then said "I suppose you know who we are?"—he said "I guess you are policemen"—I said "Yes, we are"—Mr. Hunt said "I have kept observation, and I have found that on several occasions you charged me with fat which Culff has brought"—he hesitated, and said "I am very sorry, I was tempted by Culff, I hope Mr. Hunt won't charge me for the sake of my wife and family"—Mr. Hunt said "How long has this been going on?" he said "Upwards of two years," or "About two years"—Mr. Hunt said "How did it commence?"—he said "A man named Rowland, who used to work here, asked me to his house, and Rowland said 'If you want to make a few shillings a week you can make it with this man"—I said "What have you been having for your share?"—he said "7s. or 9s. a week"—I said "Is that all?"—he said "Yes"—the other sergeant asked him where he received it—he said Culff came and brought it to him wrapped up in paper, and gave it to him every week.

Cross-examined by MR. GEOGHEGAN. I did not make a note of it, as I did not know I was going to take him in custody, and I did not reduce it to writing after—I never received directions to do so.

WILLIAM TAYLOR (Police Sergeant). On 3rd October I took Culff on a warrant: I called at his house several times, and kept observation upon it—I saw him about 9 o'clock in Longfellow Road, and read the warrant over to him; it was for obtaining money from Mr. Hunt—he said "Do you mean Mr. Hunt the fat man? if he don't pay me my money I will issue a writ against him to-morrow"—he was charged at the station, and made no reply.

ELIZABETH BARRETT . I have known Culff 20 years, and have lived with him for some years—we were living at 131, Bow Common Lane in

September—I used to see Mr. Hatts once a month, or once in two months—sometimes when he came Culff was not at home—Hatts was taken in custody six weeks ago—I had seen Hatts there about a fortnight before Culff spoke to me—I have seen Ben Rowland came to Culff's—on 1st October Culff was out on business; he came home, and went out again—he was not in the house on the Tuesday—he was let out on bail by the Magistrate.

The prisoners received good characters.

GUILTY.— Judgment respited.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-77
VerdictGuilty > unknown; Guilty > with recommendation
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour; Imprisonment > hard labour

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77. CHARLES WEST (27) and ROBERT TILLYER (43) , Stealing three bushels of horse provender of Montgomery and Co., the masters of West.

MR. BESLEY Prosecuted; MR. BLACKWELL appeared for West, and MR. GEOGHEGAN for Tillyer.

STEPHEN WALKER . I am one of the firm of Montgomery and Co., timber merchants, Old Brentford—West was in our service—it would take two hours to carry a two-ton load to Clewer, and three-quarters of a sack extra for two horses is allowed on a long journey—I saw some pieces of paper cut up and put in the sacks about midnight, when the forage bags were made up—West started after midnight on 12th November—I was not present when the forage was looked at; I saw it afterWards, and found the papers.

JOHN BRACKENBURY (Policeman F 133). On 12th November I saw these sacks of forage made up; they were marked "Jupp"—I said nothing to West when he started—I had seen some bits of paper in Mr. Walker's hand, upon which he placed a private mark—I went to Hounslow about 3 o'clock, and waited till 6.20, when West returned with the waggon, and pulled up his horses in front of the White Bear, and went inside—he came out in about five minutes, went to the timber cart, and took off a sack of fodder, which was on the centre pole, and carried it into a shed which Tillyer occupied—there were only two forage bags on the cart—he had one wrapped round his legs—this was the only full one—the horses never had their nose bags on while they stood there—a sack of forage is about three bushels—there is an open shed at the bottom, and an inner shed also, which Tillyer occupies, and which locks up; it adjoins the White Bear—West stood the sack down in the open shed, and returned to the public-house—he remained there nearly half an hour, and then came out with Tillyer—they went into the open shed—Duck and I waited about two minutes, and when we saw the sack was gone we went across to the shed, and met Tillyer coming out, and said "What is this Mr. Montgomery's man has brought in in a sack?"—he said, "I know nothing about it"—we took him to the inner shed, Duck struck a light, and we saw the horse provender emptied out in a heap, with the sack by the side of it; I could see that that was the same sack—I saw West driving away; I went after him, and said that I should take him in custody for stealing a quantity of horse provender, the property of his master—he said, "I did not steal it"—I took him to the station, returned, and found Duck in charge of the place and of Tillyer—Duck took Tillyer to the station, and I waited for his return—we then called the landlord of the White Bear, who was Tillyer's master, and examined the fodder in the shed and found the pieces of paper which I had put in, and took possession of the fodder in the bag.

Cross-examined by MR. BLACKWELL. It was quite dark at 6.30—the horses were in the open road; I saw no one minding them—I don't think "West saw me; I was in plain clothes—any one could have taken the provender while West was in the public-house—I saw the sack for half an hour—I was 14 or 15 yards off—I could see that it was gone before I went into the shed—there are large open gates; carts can be backed in.

Cross-examined by MR. GEOGHEGAN. There is an open shed where persons can go to get out of the rain—the inner shed door was not locked—Tillyer was the worse for drink—they were both drinking at the public-house, but I cannot say whether they were drinking together.

HERBERT DUCK (Detective F). I was present at Mr. Montgomery's timber yard and saw the pieces of paper put into the provender, and on 13th November I was at the White Bear at 3.30 and saw West come up with his team of horses and timber waggon—he went into the public-house, remained there two or three minutes, came out, looked around, stood at the centre pole of the cart, took a sack of fodder off and took it into a shed adjoining the public-house—he then went into the public-house and remained there 20 minutes or half an hour—I could see in from the opposite side of the road; he stood at the bar—when he came out Tillyer was with him—I had seen Tillyer walking up and down during the afternoon, but not after the waggon arrived—they went into the shed, and I immediately missed the fodder—we went across in one or two minutes and saw Tillyer coming from the inner shed—West had entered the shed with Tillyer, but I did not see him come away—I struck a light and saw some fodder on the ground in a heap in the inner shed, and the sack by the side of it—I saw some pieces of paper from that heap—I told Tillyer he would be charged with receiving a quantity of fodder, knowing it to be stolen—he said, "I know nothing about it"—I saw West driving away; Brackenbury went after him.

Cross-examined by MR. GEOGHEGAN. Tillyer was drunk—the door remained open, he did not try to close it.

Re-examined. It is about three miles from the White Bear at Hounslow to Mr. Montgomery's timber yard.

GUILTY . WEST, recommended to mercy by the prosecutor— Two Months' Hard Labour. TILLYER— Six Months' Hard Labour.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-78
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

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78. JANE WALDRON (21) PLEADED GUILTY to unlawfully converting to her own use certain pianofortes entrusted to her as a bailee.— Four Months' Hard Labour.

Before Mr. Justice Stephen.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-79
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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79. GEORGE GLESTEIN (39) was indicted for the manslaughter of George Claydon.

MR. FULTON Prosecuted.

ELIZABETH DUTTON . I am the wife of Benjamin Dutton, of 6, Poplar Street, Canning Town—the prisoner is the occupier of the house, and George Claydon lodged in the back room over the kitchen—I lodge in the front room upstairs—on Saturday, 20th October, I was with Claydon at the Rose of Denmark public-house drinking—I left home about half-past 2 in the afternoon, and he was then very drunk and very quarrel-some—when I got home about an hour afterwards the prisoner was standing at the street door—his wife was there, and I asked her what

was the matter—she said, "Oh dear me, there has been a row with Glestein and Claydon"—I said, "What for?"—she said, "I am sure I don't know what for."

WILLIAM ROOKS (Police Inspector K). On 26th October I attended an inquest on the body of George Claydon at the Eagle, East India Road—in consequence of information I apprehended the prisoner—I was present at the inquest when he gave his evidence—he spoke in English—he volunteered; the Coroner cautioned him—he said, "On 20th October I was on night shift; I came home at 8 o'clock in the morning; I went to bed about 3 o'clock in the afternoon; I had been drinking, I was drunk; soon after I heard a noise, I heard Claydon say he would kill me stone dead; he came into my bedroom and struck at me, he missed me; he struck me under the jaw; I took up the poker in self-defence, and struck him on the head; he then left the room"—I received this poker from the prisoner's wife.

THOMAS ORROCKS OPPENSHALL . I am the resident medical officer at Poplar Hospital—about 5 in the afternoon on the 20th October the deceased was brought there suffering from a lacerated scalp and a compound depressed fracture of the skull—he was put to bed; he became unconscious at half-past 3 on Wednesday afternoon—I performed the operation of trephining; he became conscious for a short time, and he died on Friday morning—the immediate cause of death was inflammation, the results of the injury—this poker might cause the injury I saw.

The Prisoner's Statement before the Magistrate. "Had I not helped myself he would have killed me. Three times he told me so; I can say no more; I am very sorry."

ELIZABETH DUTTON (Re-examined). I heard the deceased say that he would do for Glestein because he would not speak to him when he came into the Rose for a half-pint of ale.


Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-80
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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80. DAVID ROBERTS (26) , Stealing three saws, three planes, and other tools, the property of Henry Gale.

MR. CULPEPER Prosecuted.

HENRY GALE . I live at 8, Lavender Street, Stratford, and am a journeyman carpenter—on Saturday, 21st July, I was at work at the Stork House Estate, Stratford—I left work about 12.45, and put my tools in a cupboard in Mr. Beadle's house, the man I was at work for—it contained three saws, three planes, four milling planes, two hammers, two gouges, two chisels, a punch, a bench knife, a brush, and a rule—on the Thursday following they were gone—when I left on the Saturday the prisoner had gone up with the others towards the Pigeons in the Romford Road to see if Mr. Beadle was coming; we all wanted our money—he left off work when we did at 12—these are the tools (produced)—he had money to draw off Mr. Beadle; he never stopped to receive it, and has not been in sence.

SAMUEL SHEPHERD . I live at 5, Burton's Court, Broadway, Stratford—on 21st July, about 7 p.m., I was in the Romford Road, on the other side of the Stork House Estate—I saw the prisoner with this carpenter's bag of tools on his back coming down the road from the estate—I saw some saws and planes it it.

JAMES ENRIGHT (Detective K). I am stationed at West Ham—on 25th

October I went to West Ham Police-station and found the prisoner—I said "I shall arrest you for being concerned with your brother, who is in custody, in stealing a quantity of tools from the Stork House Estate on Saturday, July 21st"—as I was about to place him amongst others for the purpose of having him identified by Shepherd he said "There is no good in going through all this bother; I was on the job and I took the tools"—he is not a carpenter; he was working there as a kind of handy man.

The Prisoner's Statement before the Magistrate. "I am guilty. I took the tools to make a little money of, believing them to be Mr. Beadle's, as I have done before. I did not know they were Gale's tools."

The prisoner in his defence stated that he had worked two years for Mr. Beadle, who had given him the privilege of taking his tools to pawn. On this day he left of work at 12.30, waited till 6 for his money, and as Mr. Beadle did not return, he meant to take Mr. Beadle's tools, but took this man's by mistake.

HENRY GALE (Re-examined). I never knew that Mr. Beadle gave the prisoner permission to pawn his tools—I have only worked there for a fortnight—I got my money at 8.30 one Saturday evening, and the week before I had to wait till about 3.30.

SAMUEL SHEPHERD (Re-examined). I know Mr. Beadle has been in the habit of letting the prisoner pawn his things—Mr. Beadle owes me some money still—we have pawned his furniture too sometimes.


19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-81
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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81. HENRY BARRETT (23) , Stealing a purse and 12s., the money of John Crabb, from the person of Annie Crabb.

MR. CULPEPER Prosecuted.

ANNIE CRABB . I am the wife of John Crabb, of 20, Rathbone Street, Canning Town—on Saturday, 20th October, about 8.30, I was walking down the Victoria Dock Road and the prisoner was walking up—suddenly I felt a tug at my bag, it opened, I saw his arm come out—I immediately caught hold of his shoulder; he turned to a man behind him and said "I have not got your purse; you can search me"—I pushed him out in the road and detained him till I got a policeman, and gave him in charge—there was 10s. in gold and 2s. in silver in the purse which was in the bag—I did not open it from the time I left home—I missed the purse directly I saw his arm come out—I had seen it safe about 8.5 when I left my home—I gave him in charge, it might have been 10 minutes or a quarter of an hour afterwards—I held tight hold of him.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. I did not catch hold of your hand—there was a crowd—I did not see the purse in your hand; I caught hold of your arm coming out of my bag—the purse was not found in your possession—I did not see you give it to the man behind you.

By the JURY. The bag was on my left arm—I am sure it was shut with the snap.

JOHN DILLEY (Policeman K 458). I am stationed at Plaistow—on 20th October I was in Fox Street—the last witness came up to me following the prisoner—her arm was not upon him at the time—she said "I will give the prisoner in custody for stealing a purse from my bag containing half a sovereign and two shillings"—I told him I should take him in custody—he said "All right, constable, I will go quiet to the station with

you"—I searched him at the station and found on him a shilling and six pence.

Cross-examined. Mrs. Crabb spoke to me first—she said she would give you in charge—you did not say "This woman accuses me of stealing her purse."

Re-examined. I took him about 150 yards from where the robbery was committed—he was making his way down a narrow alley—the woman had followed him some distance from the crowd—he was not hurrying.

The prisoner, in a written defence, stated that he met the woman face to face; she felt a tug at her arm, and caught hold of and accused him, but he knew nothing about it.


Before Robert Malcolm Kerr, Esq.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-82
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

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82. JOSEPH SHERMAN (30) PLEADED GUILTY to stealings shovel of Joseph Baylies, also to a previous conviction at Little Ilford in February, 1880.— Six Months' Hard Labour.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-83
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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83. JOHANNAH WELCH (30) , Stealing a purse and 9l. 14s. 6d. of Robert Anderson.

MR. FULTON Prosecuted; MR. KEITH FRITH Defended.

ROBERT ANDERSON . I am fireman on board the steamship Shamrock—on 25th October I was paid off, and between 4 and 5 o'clock I went to a public-house near the Tidal Basin Station, accompanied by another fireman, Topham, from the ship—I met there the prisoner and a woman named Sullivan—we went with the two women to 7, Eagle Street, and upstairs there into their sitting-room—I had a purse and 9l. 14s. 6d., 6l. 10s. in gold and the rest in silver, and some foreign coins in my pocket—the prisoner asked for some money for her drink—we each gave her 1s.—she was then sitting on a chair beside me; she had taken her dress and shawl off—she sent for the drink, and after that sat on my knee with one arm round my neck for five or ten minutes—I felt her at my pocket—she got up in a few minutes and went across the room—I followed her—she went into a back room into which she would not let me go, and then came out and rushed into another room—I went after her—my purse was gone—I told my mate not to leave the house, as I had lost my purse—I afterwards found it by the side of where she had sat—all the money was gone except 2d. and two foreign coins—I had seen the money safe about 10 minutes previous, when I took out the shilling for drink—I went and stated my case at the police-station and then gave information at Poplar—she was taken in custody in Carey Street, Poplar, about an hour afterwards—I saw her searched at Poplar Street Police-station—4l. 12s. 6d. was found on her, some in her pocket and some in her breast.

Cross-examined. I had been paid off at 2.30—I had only been into two public-houses; we met the women in the second and had a drop of beer, no spirits—I had stood my friend and he me—I had never been to this place in Eagle Street before—I have no doubt now that it is a brothel—at the police-court I said that there was 7l. in gold—I can't be certain which is correct—I said I had 7l. 14s. 6d.—there were 7l. in gold and 2l. 14s. 6d. in silver—my friend was sitting there—the prisoner asked me to go there to have something to eat; I did not know where I was going to—I did not count my money when I took out the shilling—she was taken more than a mile from this place in Eagle Street.

BRIDGET SULLIVAN . On 25th October at 4 o'clock, I went with Topham and Anderson and the prisoner to 7, Eagle Street, and upstairs into the room there—I saw the prisoner sitting on Anderson's knee—I saw her take the purse from his pocket, but I did not know whether it was her own or not—I saw it in her hand; I did not see her do anything with it—she sat down for a moment and then went downstairs—I was sitting beside Topham when he found the purse on the drawers.

Cross-examined. I did not call out or say anything when I saw her take the purse—she has a purse of her own—she would not keep her purse in his pocket—I have not been in trouble for such a thing as that; I have once for breaking windows—I have not been charged at the Thames Police-court—I did not go for drink; the landlady's daughter went—I don't know if she could have seen where the purse came from.

EDWARD TOPHAM . I am a fireman on board the Shamrock—on 25th October I went with Sullivan, the prisoner, and Anderson to 7, Eagle Street and upstairs—I saw the prisoner sitting on his knee—I did not see her do anything—I saw her go out of the room; Anderson followed her—she said she didn't live there and she was going out, she wouldn't be long—Anderson followed her down the yard, he came back with a constable—I afterwards found the purse, opened it, and found in it two coppers and two foreign coins—I gave it to Anderson.

Cross-examined. We met the prisoner in the first public-house we went into—we sent out for drink and my mate paid—I sang no songs—the prisoner asked the other girl to sins; she sang two or three songs—I don't know if we were jolly together—I said at the police-court "I didn't see you take the purse from the man and put it on the drawers"—I say so to-day.

WALTER BREED (Detective Sergeant K). On the 25th between 7 and 8 I, with Sergeant Shoebridge, took the prisoner and told her she would be charged with robbing a sailor of 9l. 14s.—she was in a public-house and about paying for some lemonade and brandy for some friends—she said "Me! 9l. 14s.? that is all the money I have got," referring to the 2s. 6d. she tendered for the drink—we took her to the station, and then found the offence was committed in another district—I told her she would have to go to Poplar, and if she had any more money she had better produce it, or she would be searched by the female searcher—she opened her bosom and took out this small purse with 2l. 10s. in gold and some silver in it—I did not count the silver then—when she took it out I heard money chinking in her bosom—I said "You have some money there?" and she took out some more silver that was loose inside her things—she said that was all she had got—I counted it and found 2l. 10s. in gold, 2l. 10s. 6d. in stiver, and 4d. in bronze—she said it was her own money when she took the purse out—I took her to Plaistow and she was charged there—Shoebridge was with me.

ROBERT ANDERSON (Re-examined.) This is my purse which I had in my pocket, and in which was the money on the day in question—there were two coins in it which are here now—they were in it when my mate gave me back the purse.

The Prisoner's Statement before the Magistrate. "The money I had on me does not belong to him, not a halfpenny of it; we weren't in the house five minutes."

GUILTY . She then PLEADED GUILTY to a previous conviction in the name of Johannah Sullivan in October, 1876.— Seven Years' Penal Servitude.


Before Mr. Recorder.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-84
VerdictsGuilty > pleaded guilty; Not Guilty > no evidence
SentencesImprisonment > penal servitude; Imprisonment > penal servitude

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84. GEORGE HERBERT (29), ALFRED ROLFE (21), and ELIZA FORD (24) , PLEADED GUILTY to breaking and entering the dwelling-house of Edwin Padfield, and stealing a waistcoat, his property; also to two other indictments for burglary, Rolfe having been convicted at Newington in June, 1882. HERBERT— Five Years' Penal Servitude.

ROLFE**— Seven Years' Penal Servitude. MR. POLAND offered no evidence against


19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-85
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

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85. DAVID THOMPSON (55) , Stealing a purse and 13s. 6d. from the person of Eliza Walker.

MR. DALTON Prosecuted.

ELIZA WALKER . I am the wife of James Walker, of Greenwich—on Saturday night, 6th October, I was with him in the Crown public-house, Greenwich—the prisoner touched the side of my pocket—I moved on one side, put my hand in my pocket, and missed my purse containing six florins, one shilling, and a sixpence—it was there when I went into the house—the prisoner was gone when I missed it—I made a communication to Mr. Elsey, who went out after him.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. I did not speak to you or cheek you.

WILLIAM ELSEY . I am a labourer, of 1, Lime Tree Cottages, Greenwich—on Saturday night, 16th October, I was in the Crown public-house with Mrs. Walker and her husband—I saw the prisoner there—he went out, and I followed him and said, "Have you been into the Crown?"—he said "Yes"—I said, "Have you left a parcel there?"—he said, "No, I had no parcel"—he had a small parcel when he went in, which he could have put in his pocket, and he had none when he went out—I said, "You will have to come back along with me"—he said, "What have I done? I have done nothing, let me go"—I told him he should not go, and handed him over to a constable with the purse, which Hutchinson gave me.

Cross-examined. You did not lean on my shoulder as you went back, being paralysed.

THOMAS HUTCHINSON . I am a baker, of 167, Trafalgar Road, Greenwich—on 6th October I was at my shop door and saw the prisoner walking towards the Crown, and leaning against the next shop window—I followed him and lost sight of him in the crowd—I saw him come back and followed him, and Elsey stopped him and took him back by the left arm, and he leaned against another man's shoulder—he put his hand off the man's shoulder and dropped this purse—I picked it up and gave it to Elsey.

The Prisoner. It is false, the man on whose shoulder I was leaning dropped it; the prosecutrix's purse was picked up by a boy and brought to the station.

THOMAS SIBLEY . I am a traveller—I was in the Crown and saw the prisoner touch Mrs. Walker in a rude manner and go out—I went after him one way and Elsey the other.

ALBERT GILLARD (Policeman R 66). I was on duty in Trafalgar Road—Hutchinson made a communication to me, and showed me this purse—I detained the prisoner till Mrs. Walker came out, and then told him I

should take him in custody for stealing her purse—he said, "It is a lie, I have not seen her purse"—I took him by the arm, he appeared paralysed—somebody gave me a purse which was not Mrs. Walker's, and it is supposed that the prisoner dropped one on the way to the station; some one picked it up and pushed it into my hand—I said to him, "Come to the station," but he did not—the prisoner appeared to be drunk and paralysed—I asked him if he had any money—he said, "Only a few coppers," but I found on him 34s., 11 3/4d. in bronze, and two empty purses.

Prisoner's Defence. I had some ale, and passed the woman when I put my pot on the counter and walked out. I know nothing of the charge.

GUILTY . He then PLEADED GUILTY** to a conviction at Clerkenwell in November, 1881.— Eighteen Months' Hard Labour.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-86
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

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86. ANN ELIZABETH PEARMINE (35) , Feloniously cutting and wounding William Pearmine, with intent to do him grievous bodily harm.

MR. WILMOT Prosecuted.

WILLIAM PEARMINE . I am a labourer, of 36, Clark's Orchard, Rotherhithe—on 4th November, about 10.30 p.m., I was lying asleep by my kitchen fire, and was awoke by some one striking my head and my eye—I saw my wife standing over me in a striking position, but saw nothing in her hands—she was drunk—I went to the station and complained, and a constable went back with me—my wife was still there—we searched the place but found no weapon—I bled much and was nearly blind, I could hardly see my way for some time.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. You did not say, "I want a bit of fire as well as you do"—I did not strike you, I was asleep—you were not bruised from your right shoulder to your elbow—I did not get you down and kick you in your side.

ANNIE PEARMINE . I am 6 years old, and live with my father, the last witness—he was asleep by the kitchen fire—I was awake when my mother came in; my father was still asleep, and I saw her hit him on his head with her hand as he was lying down—he had not spoken to her, he was still asleep when she hit him—he started up, and I saw the blood coming from where she struck him—she had nothing in her hand when she hit him—she was singing when she came in—she struck him four times, not all in the same place—he got up and hit her on her mouth—she did not fall down.

JAMES TOLEY (Detective M). I was at the station at 11.30 when Pearmine came there bleeding from thirteen wounds on his head and face—he complained to me, and I went back with him to the front room, and saw a pool of blood on the ground near the fireplace—he showed me where he was lying at the time—we found the prisoner upstairs—he said "That is my wife who has caused this"—I said "You hear what your husband says"—she said "Nothing of the sort," but she afterwards said "I will do it again".—she was mad drunk, and at the station she was very violent, and tried to get at her husband, and said that she would do it again, and pulled hair-pins out of her head—I examined the room, but could find nothing likely to do it except this shell which was lying close to the pool of blood—there was another shell on the chimneypiece—she had been to the back, because I found blood there on the door, and he had not been there.

The Prisoner. That is what I done it with.

BENJAMAN BROWNING . I am surgeon to the M division of police—I was sent for to the station a little before midnight, and saw the prosecutor bleeding profusely from more than a dozen clean-cut wounds, evidently done with some sharp clean-cutting instrument—this shell could not have done it, it would have made jagged wounds, and they would have been of a different size—they were all punctured—I strongly suspected that erysipelas would set in—he was unable to work for two days, and the wounds had not healed at the commencement of this Session—the prisoner had blood on her hands and arms, but there was not a trace of a wound on her—she was in a state of furious drunkenness, so much so, that if I had not known her before I should have looked upon her as a raving lunatic—I have known them some years—she said she was sorry she had not settled him, and she would do it again; in fact, she endeavoured to do it, but was forcibly restrained by a constable.

Prisoner's Defence. I done it with a shell. I am very sorry; I hope you will have mercy on me for the sake of my five little children.

WILLIAM PEARMINE (Re-examined). She has assaulted me many times before, in fact my life is not safe where she is, or my children either.

GUILTY .— Twelve Months' Hard Labour.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-87
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty; Guilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour; Imprisonment > hard labour

Related Material

87. JOSEPH MCCAUSLAND (20) and WILLIAM ALLEN (43) , Breaking and entering the dwelling house of John Pyfield, and stealing a watch, a cash-box, and other articles, his property, to which MC CAUSLAND


MR. H. BROUN Prosecuted.

FANNY PYFIELD . I am the wife of Robert Pyfield; we live at Sandy Hill, Woolwich—on 6th November I was in my back room washing; somebody knocked at the door; I went and saw McCausland, who asked if I had received a letter from his uncle—I said "No"—I knew him before—he went a little way and came back, and asked me if I had got a little pepper that I could give him—I said "No," and shut the door—he went down the path, shut the gate, and went away—I went on with my washing, and about 2.45 found the front door open, the parlour door broken open, and the parlour window open—I went to the gate, but saw no one—I went to my bedroom and found five drawers out of six in the chest had been opened, and I missed a tin cash-box, two watches which laid by the side of it, and a bank-book—in the box was a gold brooch and necklace, two gold lockets, one of which was on a watch and the other separate, a silver brooch, a long silver guard, my husband's medal, a pile of papers, and a Russian coin, value altogether nearly 40l.—I identify this brooch, necklace, earrings, and coin (produced).

WILLIAM MORGAN (Police Sergeant R). I received information, and took McCausland at 3, Cannon Row, Woolwich, and next day, about 1 o'clock in the night, I went with Brenchley to 1, Short Street, Woolwich, and found Allen in bed—Brenchley asked him if he had bought any jewellery and watches of a man named McCausland that afternoon—he said "No"—Brenchley said "I have traced a Russian coin to you"—he said "Yes; I picked it up in the dockyard the day before yesterday"—Brenchley said "That is impossible, because it was not stolen till 2.30 yesterday"—Brenchley took him to the station—we afterwards searched the house, and found this gold brooch in a boy's

coat-pocket, and this gold locket on the sideboard—I examined the prosecutrix's house, and found the window catch had been forced back with some sharp instrument, and the parlour door burst open from the inside.

GEORGE BRENCHLEY (Police Sergeant R). I went with Morgan to Allen's house—he has given a correct account—I told Allen that I had traced the gold coin to Littlewood's, where he sold it yesterday—he said "I picked that up the night before last, down by the dockyard"—I said "That is impossible; it was not stolen till 2.30 yesterday afternoon, and I shall take you to the station and charge you with receiving two watches and several articles of jewellery from McCausland, which were stolen from Sandy Hill"—I took him to the station, and then returned, searched the room, and took the articles back—I said "Have you any explanation to give me about the property found in your room? "the gold brooch, necklace, locket—he said "You know I do a bit of dealing in that line; I bought them some two months ago of a chap in town, I don't knew his name, but I could find him if I was allowed to go"—on the remand on the 14th Allen intimated that he wanted to speak to me; I went and saw the prisoners in adjoining cells—McCausland said in Allen's hearing "How do you think I shall get on, do you think the Magistrate will settle it?"—I said "I am afraid not"—he said "I intend to plead guilty; Allen was a fool not to open his mouth and tell you where the stuff was at the first onset; I told the lot to him for 30s."—Allen said "Have not you found any more of the property, Mr. Brenchley?"—I said "No"—he said "I am sorry you were not sooner on the job; if you had come in the afternoon you would have found Joe in my place with all the stuff, and I should not have been here; I sold the two watches to a tall young man at the corner of the street directly I came out of the rooms for 30s.; I should know him again if I saw him and could point him out, but I do not know his name."

Allen, in his statement before the Magistrate and in his defence, stated that he gave McCausland a lodging as he had quarrelled with his wife, and that he went out and brought home a coin he picked up and asked him to sell it; and afterwards asked him to sell two watches, and afterwards brought the other things and left them in the sideboard clandestinely, to get him into trouble; that all he did was to sell the things, but he never bought any.

McCAUSLAND**— Fifteen Months' Hard Labour.

ALLEN— GUILTY .— Twelve Months' Hard Labour.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-88
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty; Guilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour; Imprisonment > hard labour

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88. FRANCIS FRAZIER (34), JOSEPH MILLAN (32), GEORGE MILLAN (35), and JOHN SUTER (44) , Stealing three copper bolts of Sydney Nash Castle, the master of Frazier and Joseph and George Millan. FRAZIER, JOSEPH MILLAN, and GEORGE MILLAN PLEADED GUILTY .


SYDNEY CASTLE . I am the son of Sydney Nash Castle, sole proprietor of the business of Henry Castle and Sons, of Long Wharf, Charlton and the Baltic Wharf, Westminster—for years past we have been the sole contractors with the Admiralty for the purchase of Government ships—when purchased they are taken to the wharf at Charlton for the

purpose of being broken up—we have about 200 men there—Frazier was employed as storekeeper, at a place where copper bolts, among other things, are taken to be cleaned and packed—no one has authority to sell them; we sell them wholesale, five tons at a time; very seldom less; the wholesale price is 7d., 7 1/2 d., and 8d. per lb.; 7d. is the lowest; each of them weighs about 8lb. to 10lb.—they are all stamped with the broad arrow in five or six different places—I knew nothing of Suter until these proceedings—we have never sold any copper bolts to him—on 31st October Sergeant Fawke came to me, and I went with him to the premises of Mr. Nightingale, 51, Mount Pleasant, Clerkenwell—I there saw about 7 cwt. of these copper bolts, all of which I identified as having come from our premises, and which had come out of Government ships—these (produced) are two of them.

Cross-examined. I had not found any deficiency of bolts that had come by the barges—we are the sole firm that buy them from the Government; I am quite sure of that—we sell to large merchants in the City at various prices—we once sold as little as a ton—the ships are broken up on the shore—Suter is a marine store dealer.

Re-examined. I know his shop at Woolwich, I pass it daily; it is about four minutes' walk from our premises—we have found a general deficiency in bolts for the last twelve months.

SYDNEY NASH CASTLE . I am the proprietor of this business, and have had experience of it over 25 years—we are at the present moment the only firm that purchase Government ships—as a rule we never sell a less quantity than five tons.

JOHN NIGHTINGALE . I am a brassfounder of 51, Mount Pleasant, Clerkenwell—I carry on business as Nightingale and Sawyer—I know Suter and have had transactions with him since February last; I have bought metal of him, copper, brass, and gun metal—he carried on business at Charlton—I have entered in my books every transaction with him—I have bought copper bolts of him between February and the present time; sometimes once a week, sometimes a fortnight would elapse—I paid him by cheque or cash—there were always copper bolts in the metal he sold me, more or less—they were bolts of this description; I cannot say how many, they varied, but there was always a proportion; I used to buy mixed lots, I never bought bolts especially—between 19th February and 30th October I have paid him 230l. for copper alone, apart from the brass and gun metal—the quantity of copper varied from 1 cwt. up to 6 cwt.—they were usually small mixed lots—I paid him 6 1/2 d. per lb. for the copper—I received copper bolts from him on 23rd and 30th October, and paid him by cheque—Tuesday, 30th October, was the very last transaction on which I purchased copper bolts of him; there was 5 cwt. 1 qr. 26 lb. of mixed copper, for which I paid him 16l. 3s. 5d., and he gave me this receipt, signed by him in my presence, "John Suter"—on 31st Detective Fawke came to my premises with Mr. Castle, jun.—I showed him about 7 cwt. of these copper bolts on my premises—he saw them lying in the store just as they were left immediately previous, with other deliveries, and he identified them—he noticed that they were marked with the broad arrow—they were the copper bolts I had received from Suter.

Cross-examined. I have purchased copper bolts with the broad arrow on them from other persons not confined to Suter; we deal with the

largest merchants—I did not think I was doing any harm in buying them with the broad arrow on them—we pay a fair price, and trust to the person we deal with—the price we have paid has-been estimated as being fair—Suter gave me the receipt on our own printed bill-head—if a man collected these in small quantities, and afterwards sold them in large, he would have to pay the expense of carting them to our place—they were delivered free to me—I could not say that all which Mr. Castle saw were bought of Suter.

Re-examined. Out of the 7 cwt. I should say all but one or two bolts came from Suter—we have not bought copper bolts marked with the broad arrow recently; it comes in mixed lots, and I have not bought mixed lots recently; I mean not during the last three or four months, except from Suter—I have never bought any from Mr. Castle—I don't know what his wholesale price is.

MATTHEW PEARCE . I was in Suter's employ, at 1, Prospect Bow, Woolwich—a boy named Crawford was also employed there—I know Frazier—I have seen him at Suter's shop twice, and sometimes three times a week for the last three months—he brought copper bolts like these—sometimes he had them on his shoulder, sometimes under his arm, and sometimes under his coat, two or three at a time—Suter was there at the time—I never saw Suter pay for them—Frazier brought them sometimes between 7 and 8 in the morning, and sometimes between 5 and 6 in the evening—Suter kept books—I have seen him write in a black one and in a red one—I did not say before the Magistrate that I never saw any—I was there when Suter was taken into custody on 1st November—the black book was then in his writing desk on the bench in the shop—the red book got lost when they were repairing the house—we looked for it, and could not find it—that was about five weeks ago.

Cross-examined. This (produced) is the black book—I am seldom at home; I am generally out with the horse, selling coals and wood—the shop opens at 7 in the morning, and closes between 9 and 10—when Frazier came it was during the hours of business—I said before the Magistrate "I can't say Suter did not pay for the bolts at the time he bought them."

By the COURT. There were scales in the shop—I have not seen anything weighed when Frazier came.

HENRY WILLIAM CRAWFORD . I was in Suter's employ about twelve months—I know Frazier by sight—I have seen him at Suter's shop once or twice or three times a week for the last five or six months—he brought copper bolts similar to these, sometimes under his coat, sometimes under his arm, and sometimes in a bag—he brought two or three at a time—he left them there—Suter took them in—I have heard money pass on each occasion—I never saw how much it was—the last time I saw him there was Monday, 29th October, from 7 to 9 in the morning—he generally used to come at that time, sometimes in the evening between 5 and 6—I think he brought three copper bolts on the 29th—I have also seen the two Millans bring copper Dolts—I have not seen any others bring them—I have seen Suter write in a black book—I can't tell the last time I saw it—I saw it used whenever there was any work from Siemens's; it was a cartage book.

Cross-examined. I said before the Magistrate "I did not think there

was anything wrong when they brought the bolts"—I heard the price mentioned by Suter, 5 1/2 d. a pound.

FREDERICK FAWKE (Police Sergeant R). On 31st October I went to Mr. Nightingale's, and there saw a quantity of copper bolts similar to those produced—in consequence of what Mr. Nightingale said, I went with Morgan to Suter's premises—I did not see him on that day—I went again on the morning of 1st November—I said "I am a police officer; have you bought any copper bolts recently?"—he said "No"—I said "Have you sold any?"—he said "No"—I said "Have you carted any for any one?"—he said "No"—I said "I wish you to understand what I have said to you," and I repeated the questions, and he answered "No"—I then produced two copper bolts similar to these, and said "I have received these from Messrs. Nightingale, at Clerkenwell"—he said "Yes, I did sell them some"—I said "I shall take you into custody for stealing a quantity of copper bolts, the property of Messrs. Castle and Sons"—he made no reply—I took him to the station, and returned and searched the premises—I found no books—I saw no writing desk on the counter—I nave never seen this black book till to-day.

Cross-examined The back part of the house was under repair, and in great confusion—I took down in writing what Suter said, and I produce it—Morgan was there at the time.

WILLIAM MORGAN (Police Sergeant R). I was present when Fawke took Suter into custody (The witness gave the same statement as Fawke).

Cross-examined. I was in Court when Fawke was examined—Suter gave the names of the other prisoners as the persons of whom he had bought the things—it was owing to his information that I took them.

Re-examined. He sent for me to his cell, and asked what I was going to do—I said "What are you going to do? you said you were not going to touch the others"—he said I will give their names; there is George and Joe Millan, and Deaffy, at work at Castle's"—I said "Where do they live?"—he said "I know that George lives in the Narrow Way; I could not tell you where the others live."

Suter's Statement before the Magistrate. "All the bolts I bought I bought of those three men; they told me they chopped wood, and bought the timber at the ship-breaking yard.

SUTER— GUILTY .* He received a good character.— Eighteen Months' Hard Labour. FRAZIER, GEORGE MILLAN, and JOSEPH MILLAN— Eighteen Months' Hard Labour each.

There were two other indictments against the prisoners.

Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-89
VerdictGuilty > with recommendation

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89. GEORGE TUCKER (67) , Stealing a pewter pot, the property of Frederick William Hopkinson. Second Count, Receiving.

MR. BEARD Prosecuted.

JAMES FOLEY (Detective M). On 12th October, about 11 a.m., I was in Rotherhithe New Road in company with Sergeant Goddard; we had been following the prisoner for some hours on this day in the neighbourhood of Camberwell, Deptford, Peckham, and New Cross—at a quarter to 3 in the afternoon he caught sight of me in Eveline Street—he remained at the corner of Eveline Street, High Street, Deptford; Goddard went round to the back of the Admiral Duncan and stopped the prisoner—I followed up and said "What have you in your pocket?" and I then took

from his inside coat pocket this pot—the pot was in his inside coat pocket, and he was carrying this bag on his arm over the pocket—I took him to the station; on the way he said "What am I to do? I have been in the workhouse, and I would as soon be in prison as there"—he was taken to the station and charged, he said nothing further.

EDWARD GODDARD (Sergeant M). On 12th October I was with Foley—about 2.20 p.m. I saw the prisoner go into the Admiral Duncan, kept by the prosecutor, in the New Cross Road—he stayed there ten minutes or a quarter of an hour, he had some ale to drink; after he came out I followed him for a short time, and then stopped him—what the last witness has stated then took place—previous to that he went into between thirty and forty public-houses in the neighbourhood of Camberwell, Peckham, Rotherhithe, New Cross, Deptford—he was walking for four hours, he was sober.

GEORGE LEE . I am barman at the Admiral Duncan public-house, New Cross Road, Deptford—I identify this pot (produced) as my master's property by the name "H. Peters, Admiral Duncan, New Cross Road" on it—I last saw it safe on the 12th—its value is 2s. 3d.

By the JURY. I had not missed it till the constable brought it back—I had counted them at 12, it was safe then.

By the COURT. The prisoner has been in the house once or twice before—I did not see him on the 12th.

The prisoner in his defence stated that about six years ago he had his head cut open and erysipelas followed, and since that time he had never been right; he knew nothing of what had happened on that day.

EZRA RUDDLE . I am the solicitor for the prosecution—Peters was the late proprietor, and he sold the house to the prosecutor about nine months ago.

GUILTY. Recommended to mercy by the Jury. He then PLEADED GUILTY* to a previous conviction of felony in December, 1882, at Greenwich. There were other indictments against the prisoner for stealing pots from another house and for attempting suicide.

JAMES FOLEY (Re-examined). When Goddard had gone to get the prosecutor from the Admiral Duncan, the prisoner got up from his chair, took up a piece of iron from the fender, and struck himself twice on the head as hard as he could—blood flowed copiously, and he knocked a piece off the end of the bar—I took it away and a doctor was fetched.

INSPECTOR WILLIAM KNAPP . When the prisoner struck himself at the station I said "Why did you cut your head like that?"—he said "Because I don't want to live any longer, I only want you to give me another knock there, I mean to kill myself"—a doctor was called, he is not here.

Twelve Months' without Hard Labour.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-90
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

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90. JAMES WALLACE (29) PLEADED GUILTY to stealing two geldings, a barrow, and a set of harness, the goods of John Price, also to a previous conviction** of felony on 4th March, 1875.— Two Years' Hard Labour.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-91
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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91. FREDERICK LANE (15) , stealing on 5th October two coats, a vest, and a watch and chain, the goods of George Cooper. Second Count, receiving.

MR. BAYLISS Prosecuted.

CHARLES COOPER . I am a coachman, and live at Westfield Avenue,

Beckenham—this (produced) is my coat, I missed it on Friday morning, 5th October, from the coachhouse, between 10 and 1—I also missed a Macintosh, waistcoat, and watch and chain—they were worth altogether 5l.—I had never seen the prisoner before.

FREDERICK FORD (Sergeant R). On the morning of the 9th I was in Deptford Broadway and saw the prisoner wearing this coat; I said "Can you account for the possession of that coat?" he said "Yes, I bought it at Portsmouth for 8s., I only came home last Saturday," that would be the 6th—I said "I am not satisfied with your answer, I shall charge you with the unlawful possession of it"—I took him to the station, where he said "I bought it of a man named Smith, of Smith Street, Portsmouth; I gave him 18s. for it; if I had stolen the coat, why did not the other detectives apprehend me last week when they saw me wearing it?".

The Prisoner's Statement before the Magistrate. "I wish to have it dealt with here."

The prisoner in his defence stated that he bought the coat for 8s., of Smith, of Smith Street, Portsmouth, a traveller.

GUILTY of receiving.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-92
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

Related Material

92. FREDERICK LANE was again indicted for stealing a watch and chain of Henry Phillimore.

MR. BAYLISS Prosecuted.

HENRY PHILLIMORE . I live at Aylesford House, Herne Hill, and am a coachman—this (produced) is my watch and chain—I missed it from the coachhouse on 6th October, not before 5 o'clock—its value is 3l.

ROBERT HERBERT JACK . I am an assistant to Robert Alton, pawnbroker, of Bishopsgate Street Without—this watch and chain were pledged with me on 6th October for 12s., about 6 o'clock, I believe by the prisoner—I was taken to the police-court to identify the prisoner, and picked him out from a number of others.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. I don't swear you pawned the watch, I say to the best of my belief.

By the COURT. I did not ask him any questions, I did not take it in—sometimes we ask questions.

The Prisoner's Defence. I never pawned it. Who would take a watch in pawn off a poor boy like me?

NOT GUILTY . He then PLEADED GUILTY** to a previous conviction felony February, 1833, at Woolwich, in the name of John Smith.— Eighteen Months' Hard Labour.

Before Robert Malcolm Kerr, Esq.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-93
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

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93. MARY ANN JOHNSON (51) , Forging and uttering a receipt for the payment of 18l. 15s. 10d., with intent to defraud.


SUSAN COOMBER . I live at 130, Birkbeck Road, Plumstead, and am a domestic servant—I had in the early part of this year an account at the Greenwich branch of the Post-office Savings Bank—this (produced) is my book—on 16th August there was 18l. 15s. 10d. to my credit—I kept the book at my mother's, Susannah Coomber's, house—on 16th August I met and gave her 15s. to pay into the bank for me—on 19th September I was called to the Greenwich post-office and inspected the signatures to

this notice of withdrawal and the warrant for payment (produced)—they are not my signatures—I had not seen these two papers before I went—I did not authorise anybody at any time to write the signatures for me—I have received no part of my money, 18l. 15s. 10d.

SUSANNAH COOMBER . The last witness was my daughter—I am the wife of Edward Coomber, a labourer—we live at 9, Pearson Street, Greenwich—I took care of her savings-bank book—on 16th August she gave me 15s. to pay in—I looked for the book and could not find it—I kept it in a drawer in my bedroom—the last time I had paid in money was 14th April, and I had not seen the book since I put it away in the drawer then—the drawer was open—the prisoner lived next door but one to me; she was in the habit of coming to my house—I was on very friendly terms with her—I had spoken to her about my daughter having money in the savings bank, and that I paid it in for her—on 28th Aug., after I missed the book, I got the prisoner to write for a new book to the post-office—I cannot write—I put 12 stamps into the letter myself—she did not read it to me—I sent it to the post-office—I believe this (produced) is the letter—on 12th August I saw the prisoner, and told her I was going to the post-office to inquire about the book, to see if any money had been withdrawn—she said "You go back, you look so worried, I will go"—I said "Thank you"—I did not go—afterwards she came back and told me no money had been drawn out within two months—nothing was said about the book—the same evening, at half-past 7 o'clock, I received this book by post—I don't know who sent it—the next day I received a telegram, and the next day I went to the post-office, taking the book and showing it to the clerk—at that time I had not noticed anything wrong about it—on 9th September I sent the book to the post-office to have the interest added up, and I received afterwards a registered letter, which I opened and found to contain a piece of bread and a sovereign in the bread, and also this letter—I don't know who sent that—until this inquiry took place I did not authorise anybody to get the money for my daughter, and did not know it had been withdrawn.

ELIZA ADA CARLAND . I am a clerk in the Post-office Savings Bank, head office, 144 A, Queen Victoria Street—on 8th August I received notice of withdrawal in this letter "A"—I compared the signature with the signature to the declaration to the opening of account, and I forwarded the warrant for 18l. 15s. 10d. to Miss Coomber, 9, Pearson Street, Greenwich.

HENRY SMITH . I am clerk in the Greenwich branch of the Post-office—on 9th August a woman brought me this warrant and signed in my presence the name Susan Coomber, and I then paid her 18l. 15s. 10d.—at the time she produced this deposit book, and I entered the amount as being withdrawn, and initialled it and gave her the book back—since then a piece of paper has been pasted over it to cover my signature—I see a great many persons; I could not say who the woman was.

WILLIAM CHARLES HARTUNG . I am a clerk in the Post-office—on 9th September I received the book "B" to compare with the ledger, and than I found the entry 18l. 15s. 10d. was an incorrect entry; the money had been withdrawn.

WILLIAM BATTY I am a clerk in the Post-office Savings Bank head office—on 22nd September I went to Greenwich to inquire into this matter—I went to 9, Pearson Street, and saw Mrs. Coomber, and then I

saw the prisoner in her presence—I showed this letter to the prisoner, and also this other one announcing the recovery of the book—I asked her whether the first letter announcing the loss of the book was in her handwriting; she said it was not—I asked her whether the second was; she said not—I then told her Mrs. Coomber stated she wrote the first letter in her presence, and the handwriting in both letters was identical, and therefore I assumed she had written both of them—she denied it altogether—on the 25th I showed her the registered letter to Mrs. Coomber enclosing the sovereign, and asked her if she knew anything about it—she repudiated any knowledge of it—I said her daughter had told me she had written it at her request, and in her presence, having copied it from writing on a piece of paper her mother had written, and she sat beside her while she wrote it—the prisoner said nothing—her little girl was an intelligent little girl about 10 or 12 years of age.

JOHN SUCKLING (Policeman R 102). On 28th September I took the prisoner into custody at her house on a warrant, which I read to her, relating to this charge—on the way to the station she said "What is the best thing for me to do?"—I said "It is not my business to advise you"—she then said "I done it and may as well plead guilty"—she was brought up, remanded for a week or two on bail, she did not surrender, and was taken into custody again on 19th October, and committed for trial.

GUILTY .— Twelve Months' Hard Labour.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-94
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

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94. JOHN SULLIVAN (18) , Burglary in the dwelling-house of Arthur Keldays, and stealing a pair of boots, a pair of shoes, seven dead pheasants, and a dead rabbit. Second Count, receiving.

MR. BURNIE Prosecuted.

HANNAH SMITH . I am Mr. Kelday's servant, at Leecroft, Peak Hill, Sydenham—on Tuesday, 2nd October, I went to bed at 10.30, having locked up all the doors and windows—next morning when I came down at 6 o'clock I went into the conservatory, and found the conservatory door at the back leading into the garden was open—a pane of glass was broken in the conservatory—I missed seven dead pheasants and a rabbit—I spoke to my master—afterwards I missed this pair of boots(produced) and this pair of tennis shoes (produced)—there is a door from the conservatory into the house; that was not broken open—no one had got into the house.

FREDERICK BUNTING (Policeman P 537). On Tuesday, 3rd October, about 20 minutes to 10, I was on duty in Oakfield Road, Penge, and saw the prisoner carrying a parcel under his arm—I stopped him and asked him what he had got; he said "A pair of boots"—I undid the parcel and saw these boots—I asked him where he got them from; he said he bought them at Croydon about three weeks before—I told him I should take him to the station and charge him with unlawful possession—he threw the boots down and ran away—I ran after him and caught him after 200 yards—he put himself down and attempted to throw me over his back—I had a struggle, and told him if he did not give over I should knock him down, and ultimately he went quietly to the station.

LEONARD WARD (Detective P). About 11 on the morning of 3rd October I went to the prisoner's lodgings, 68, Hartley Road, Penge, and found a dead rabbit in the scullery—I went to the station, where the prisoner was detained, and said "You will be detained for unlawful possession of

a dead rabbit;" he said "I caught it this morning in the Scotchman's field."

MARY ANN BRISTOWE . I am the wife of George Bristowe, and live at 68, Hartley Road, Penge—the prisoner lodged with us from the beginning of October, on and off—about seven weeks ago this Wednesday was when I first went to London about him—he had a pair of boots when he went out of our house—I did not see him bring anything when he came back—that (produced) is his jacket.

SAMUEL HARDING . I am a labourer, living at Wells Road, Sydenham—I was going across the green opposite Peak Hill on the night of 7th October, and while looking for mushrooms and searching about some straw I found this coat—I pulled it out, and found in the pocket seven pheasants and this pair of tennis shoes.

JOHN WINNEAR (Detective Sergeant P). About 11 on the morning of 10th October I went to Lambeth Police-court—on the prisoner being discharged on a charge there I took him into custody, and said "I shall take you into custody for burglariously entering Leecroft, Sydenham, and stealing therefrom seven dead pheasants and other articles, and also breaking into an outhouse;" he made no answer—I repeated it; he said "I know nothing about it"—on the road to the station he said "I have been led into this."

By the COURT. After the committal the prisoner gave an account of a man named Brown, who he said had stolen these things, but I don't know who that man is; there is no evidence against him.

LEONARD WARD (Re-examined). I know Brown well; there is nothing I can bring against him with regard to this case.

The prisoner, in his defence, stated that he had lent his coat to Brown on the night of 2nd October and admitted that he was guilty of receiving the pair of boots and the rabbit.

GUILTY . He then PLEADED GUILTY** to a previous conviction of felonyin December, 1882.— Eighteen Months' Hard Labour.


Before Mr. Recorder.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-95
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown; Guilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

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95. JOHN CRAWLEY (22) and PETER WALTERS (55) , Stealing two bags of sugar of Frederick Davidson and others.

MR. BESLEY Prosecuted; MR. WARBURTON defended Walters.

FREDERICK DAVIDSON . I am a wholesale grocer, and carry on business as Kingham and Davidson, 26, High Street, Borough—the police have shown me two bags of sugar of mine, and pointed out the place where Walters's cart stood—there was a different kind of sugar in each bag—I have brought a sample of each, and they correspond exactly, and the bags also—the bags are not alike, but we have got both sorts—we did not use them for sugar—I have known Walters a year and a half or two years—he was in the habit of taking coffee from my place, but we had given him no work for about two months, and he had no business on the premises—I don't know Crawley—I missed about 56 lbs. of sugar; the bag contained 58 lbs., but part of it had been delivered to customers.

Cross-examined by MR. WARBURTON. I do business in a large way—Identify the sugar because it is the only sort I had in stock, but it is in

very common use—I have no hesitation in swearing to it—Walters would not come at 7 o'clock at night to ask me to employ him again—my name is not on the bags, but there is an "8" on one of them.

Re-examined. The other bag is marked "Sunbeam"—I had a number of them, and have brought one like it, and also a specimen of the other, and the sugars correspond.

WILLIAM JACKSON . I am turned 13 years old, and live in St. Margaret's Court, Borough—on 16th October, at 8 p.m., I was at the back of Mr. Davidson's warehouse and noticed a cart 20 or 30 yards from the door, and no one in charge of it—it was about 100 yards from St. Saviour's Court—two men went to it, took out two bags of sugar, and each carried one—I followed them to the foot of London Bridge; they walked one in front of the other—I told a policeman, and he went after them—one dropped his bag and ran away—I saw a policeman catch him; it was Crawley.

JAMES HAYWARD (Policeman M 192). On 16th October, about 8.30 p.m., Jackson spoke to me about 600 yards from Mr. Kingham's warehouse—I saw Crawley and another man about 50 yards in front of him each carrying a bag—I ran after Crawley, who was going about six miles an hour—he threw the parcel from his back into his arms, and threw it down—I followed him, shouting "Stop thief!"—three gentlemen stopped him and I took him—going down the steps to the Borough Market he said "Down there where it came from"—I said to the boy "You go down and see if the man is there who has lost it"—he said "He is not"—Crawley pointed out Walters's cart and Walters driving it, and said "That is the man who lost the sugar"—Walters came across and I said "Have you lost anything?"—he said "Yes, two bags of sugar"—I said "Is this one?"—he said "Yes"—the officer put it into the cart—I said "You accompany me to the station"—he did so and asked Walters if the sugar was his—he said "Yes"—I said "Where is the bill?"—he handed me his card; I said "That is not the bill"—he said "Well, it is mine; it was put into my cart"—I said "By who?"—he said "Mr. Benfield"—I said "Where does he live?"—he said "I don't know"—I said "What are you going to do with it?"—he said "He told me to take it to my place and he would come in the morning"—I said "You had better charge Crawley," and he did so, and next morning I went to Mr. Benfield's, 100, Brook Street, which Walters had pointed out to me before he was accused.

Cross-examined by MR. WARBURTON. That is about 30 yards from Mr. Davidson's place—Walters came to the station on the evening of the 18th, gave me his card, and said that he had come to charge Crawley with stealing the sugar—I told the constable to see that he came to the station with the cart and contents; that constable is not here.

HENRY NAIRNS . I am Chief Clerk at Southwark Police-court—Crawley was brought before the Magistrate on 17th October, and I took Walters's deposition—it was read over to him before he signed it. (In this Walters stated that he missed the sugar from his cart when the constable spoke to him.) The case was remanded—Mr. Benfield attended, and Walters was committed.

EDWARD BENFIELD . I am a grocer, of 100, Brook Street, Kennington Road—I have known Walters 10 years as a coffee roaster—he called for coffee to roast and brought it back again—my last transaction with him

was about two months ago—I knew nothing of any sugar being in his cart on the 16th—there was none there belonging to me—I had not seen him for three weeks—he came to see me about 10 o'clock on the night the sugar was stolen, and came again on the 22nd and asked me to come down to the Southwark Police-court and claim the sugar next morning—I said "No, I cannot do any such thing, as the sugar does not belong to me"—he told me a man was in custody for stealing it out of the out—I never did any business in sugar.

Cross-examined by MR. WARBURTON. Sugar would not be sent to me which I had not ordered—Walters always performed his work well.

Re-examined. I had not ordered him to take the sugar to his place and come next morning and get coffee to roast—I had not seen him for three weeks—I never employee him to bring sugar to me.

Crawley's Defence. I am innocent of stealing it. Walters asked if I wanted to earn 6d., and gave it to me to carry over London Bridge and wait for him, as he could not come just then, because he had to wait for some coffee. I asked him if he stole it and he would not tell me. Next week I said "You might tell the Magistrate whether you stole it; and not let me get into trouble." He said "I did not, but as to the third sack, I stole that from Davis's."

CRAWLEY— NOT GUILTY . WALTERS— GUILTY .— Nine Months' Hard Labour.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-96
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceMiscellaneous > sureties

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96. WALTER MONTEAGLE HASKER PLEADED GUILTY to a libel on Joseph Davis.— To enter into recognisances.

19th November 1883
Reference Numbert18831119-97
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown; Guilty > unknown; Guilty > with recommendation
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude; Imprisonment > hard labour

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97. JAMES HOULDEN alias HOLCHESTER (65), HENRY HILL (33), and MARY HILL (36) , Unlawfully having in their possession certain papers, plates, and blocks upon which were engraved an undertaking for the payment of money, with intent to defraud His Imperial Majesty the Emperor of all the Russias.

MESSRS. POLAND and MONTAGU WILLIAMS Prosecuted; MR. BESLEY appeared for Houlden, MR. FRITH for Henry Hill, and MR. BROUN for Mary Hill.

MORRIS MOSER (Police Inspector, Scotland Yard). On 27th September, about noon, in consequence of information, I went to Clapham Junction Station and saw Houlden—I said "Mr. Houlden, I believe you have some forged notes in your possession"—he said "No"—he tried to struggle away from me—I put him in a cab and took him to Battersea Road Station, searched him, and found on him 203 25-rouble notes and two sheets of paper with holes in them, bearing the water mark of five-rouble notes (produced)—the paper was folded in four, and there was enough to print four notes each with the water mark in the centre and sides—when he was charged he said "I emphatically deny it"—I went with Inspector Abberline the same day to 15, Lavender Road, where Houlden lives—Mrs. Banks pointed out two parlours where he lodged—we searched and found several large boxes, the keys were on the mantelshelf—Abberline opened them and found six plates for the manufacture of five-rouble notes and a black bag; and in the same box 1, 680 sheets of paper, water-marked for five-rouble notes, and folded for four each, and a water-mark plate—we took the boxes to Battersea Police-station, and showed them to Houlden, who said that one box belonged to him but not the other—next day about 11 a.m. I went to 28 Knox Street,

Clapham Junction, with Abberline, and saw Mary Hill, I believe she lives there—I said "Is your name Mary Hill?"—she said "Yes"—I said "Is your husband in?"—she said "No"—I said "What time will he be in?"—she said "About 11 o'clock to-night"—I said "We are police officers, and I believe you have plates in your possession for the manufacture of notes"—she said "I have had blocks but I have not got them now"—I said "Where are they?"—she said "At my sister's"—we went upstairs—she took a key out of her pocket and opened the door of the first floor back room, where we found a printing press and a quantity of burnt paper—Abberline said to her "You had better come with me to your sister's," and he and another sister who was present then went to Mrs. Garter's while I remained with Mrs. Hill; they came back with the plates—Mrs. Hill said "I took them there this morning"—the parcel was brought there; it was opened in my presence and contained plates for the manufacture of 25-rouble notes—she said that she did not know anything about them—she was taken to the station—we afterwards went to Spottiswoode's and found Henry Hill employed there as a compositor and printer—that was between 12 and 1 o'clock—we told him we were policeofficers and should take him in custody for having in his possession plates for the manufacture of Russian rouble notes—I don't think he made any reply, but he said to Abberline in the cab "This man Chester brought these plates to me and told me he would shoot me if I did not print them"—he was taken before the Magistrate and remanded—we also went to 28, Knox Road with the key of the back room, which we got from Mrs. Hill; we found there