Old Bailey Proceedings.
28th May 1883
Reference Number: t18830528

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Old Bailey Proceedings front matter.
28th May 1883
Reference Numberf18830528

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On the Queen's Commission of



The City of London,





Held on Monday, May 28th, 1883, and following days.

BEFORE THE RIGHT HON. HENRY EDMUND KNIGHT, LORD MAYOR of the City of London; Right Hon. Lord. COLERIDGE, Lord Chief Justice of England; Right Hon. Sir RICHARD BALIOL BRETT, Master of the Rolls; Hon. Sir WILLIAM ROBERT GROVE , Knt., and Hon. Sir HENRY HAWKINS , Knt., two of the Justices of Her Majesty's High Court of Justice; Sir ROBERT WALTER CARDEN, WILLIAM LAWRENCE , Esq., M.P., Sir THOMAS DAKIN , Knt., and WILLIAM JAMES RICHMOND COTTON , Esq., Aldermen of the said City; Sir THOMAS CHAMBERS , Knt., Q.C., M.P., Recorder of the said City; JOHN STAPLES , Esq., F.S.A., REGINALD HANSON , Esq., HERBERT JAMESON WATERLOW , Esq., and JAMES WHITEHEAD , Esq., other of the Aldermen of the said City; Sir WILLIAM THOMAS CHARLEY , Knt., Q.C., D.C.L., Common Serjeant of the said City; and ROBERT MALCOLM KERR , Esq., LL.D., Judge of the Sheriffs' Court: Her Majesty's Justices of Oyer and Terminer, and General Gaol Delivery, holden for the said City, and Judges of the Central Criminal Court.

POLYDORE DE KEYSER , Esq., Alderman,








A Star (*) denotes that prisoners have been previously in custody—two stars (**) that they have been more than once in custody—a dagger (†) that they are known to be the associates of bad characters—the figures after the name in the indictment denote the prisoner's age.


OLD COURT.—Monday, May 28th, 1883.

Before Mr. Recorder.

28th May 1883
Reference Numbert18830528-563
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

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563. JOHN THOMPSON (46) , Stealing a hat brush of the Honourable Society of the Inner Temple, and a coat of Robert Neaves.

MR. MEAD Prosecuted.

ROBERT NEAVES . I am porter at the Inner Temple and attendant at the reading-room—on 19th March, about 4.45 p.m., I was watching behind a glass door and could see the lobby, where I could see my coat on a peg—I saw the prisoner come in; he is not a member of the Inn and had no right to use the room—he went into the lavatory and took a hat brush, and then came back, took my coat from the peg, and hurried out—I followed him to the Mitre Tavern—he had some bear before him and was in the act of sitting down on my coat—I entered into conversation with him; he found I was watching him and went upstairs—I followed him—he went into the lavatory at the top of the stairs, taking the coat with him; he hung it up and was coming downstairs—I charged him with stealing it—he said "I have nothing of yours"—I called the barmaid, and then he took the hat brush out of his pocket and put it on the stairs—it is marked "Inner Temple" on the back—I got the police and he was looked up—this is my coat; it is worth 2l., and the brush 3s. 6d.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. I told you I was a clerk out of employ, but that was to put you off your guard.

ANNIE LAMBOURNE . I am barmaid at the Mitre Tavern—on 14th March I heard a noise on the stairs, and saw the prisoner and Neave—the prisoner took this brush out of his pocket and put it on the fourth stair—a policeman came afterwards.

GEORGE JENNER (City Policeman). I was called to the Mitre, and saw the prisoner and Neaves on the first-floor landing—Neaves charged him

with stealing this coat and hat brush—he made no reply—I took him to the station and found on him 21 pawn-tickets.

The prisoner, in his defence, contended that if Neaves had really seen him take the coat he would have stopped him at once.

GUILTY . There were seven similar indictments against the prisoner.— Nine Months' Hard Labour.

28th May 1883
Reference Numbert18830528-564
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

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564. JOHN THOMPSON (18) PLEADED GUILTY to uttering counterfeit coin, and having others in his possession.— Six Months' Hard Labour. And

28th May 1883
Reference Numbert18830528-565
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

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565. JOHN WEST (44) to uttering two counterfeit half-crowns.— Nine Months' Hard Labour. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

28th May 1883
Reference Numbert18830528-566
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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566. JOHN MAY (23) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.

MR. CRAUFURD Prosecuted.

CHARLES SANSON . I am 13 years old and live at 29, Cambridge Street, Camberwell, with my parents—on Saturday, 21st April, the prisoner came to that house about 8.30—he was not living there nor had he been—he said to me "Go and fetch me a pot of stout and mild," and gave me a two-shilling piece—I did not notice the coin—I went to the Palmerston Arms—the barmaid served me with the beer, I put down the money, she said it was a bad one, and showed it to the landlord—he rang it on the counter and gave it back to me, and I took the beer, being a customer there, and went back with it and the coin to the prisoner, who was waiting in the house—I told him it was bad—he said "I wonder where I got this from; I must have got it in the afternoon somewhere"—he took it; I did not see what he did with it.

ALICE BROWNE . I am a barmaid at the Palmerston Arms, Grosvenor Park, Camberwell, near 29, Cambridge Street—Sanson came in on the evening of 21st April and asked for some beer—he laid down a twoshilling piece—I noticed it was bad—I showed it to the landlord—he tried it on the counter and gave it back to the boy, and he went away with it.

ADOLPHUS BARNES . I am a harness maker, living at 21, Desborough Place, Pimlico—I have known the prisoner by sight as living at Mr. Allatt's, the Devonshire Arms—I met him at a public-house in the Edgware Road on Thursday, 26th April; we had several glasses of ale together, and went into two other public-houses, and then I was just going to get into a bus when the prisoner asked me to give him change for a two-shilling piece, which he gave me; I gave him a shilling and two sixpences, and then said "This won't do, old chap, this isn't silver, give me back my shilling and two sixpences"—he said "It is all right"—I said "It is all wrong, give me back my shilling and two sixpences, and you can go, and don't speak to me again"——I caught hold of his arm, and he wrenched it away and got away—I ran after him, and he was stopped by a policeman—I gave the florin to a policeman.

WALTER EDMUND . I live at 19, Gloster Mews, W.—I have been sworn-in to the police to-day—on the night of 26th April I was in Seymour Place and heard cries of "Stop thief!"—I saw the prisoner running and a crowd behind him—I started in pursuit—he went into the private apartment of a public-house; he was ejected, but he could not get away for the crowd at the door, and Barnes came up and gave him into custody—I followed when the constable took him to the station—within the first

six yards of their journey the prisoner put hit hand into his right-hand pocket and threw something resembling a coin into the gutter—I searched for it; I saw a cabman pick it up, and he handed it to me; it was a Hanoverian coin—I took it to the station and gave it to the inspector.

ARTHUR NICOLS (Policeman D 100). On the night of 10th April I was on duty in Seymour Place—I saw the prisoner running away followed by Barnes—the prisoner stopped at the corner of Upper Berkeley Street and Seymour Place—I went towards him—Barnes came up and gave him into custody, and charged him with passing a two-shilling piece to him, which he handed to me—I took the prisoner to the station—when charged he said he knew nothing whatever of the two-shilling piece—he gave an address at his sister's, 29, Cambridge Road, Camberwell, but he afterwards said that was false and refused to give one—I searched him and found a shilling and four sixpences in silver and threepence in bronze on him.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . I am Examiner of Coin to Her Majesty's Mint—this is a bad coin, and this a Hanoverian coin or whist marker.

The prisoner, in his defence, stated that when he gave the coin to the boy for the beer, he did not know it was bad; that when it was brought beak he thought he would find out where he got it from, and put it in his pocket, and that he supposed it must have got mixed with his other money and been given to Barnet by mistake.


28th May 1883
Reference Numbert18830528-567
VerdictGuilty > with recommendation
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

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567. JOHN BAKER (26) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.

MR. CRAUFURD Prosecuted.

JOSEPH COWLEY . I am a cadet of the Salvation Army, at the Training Hall, Clapton—there was a meeting at the Congress Hall, Clapton, on 14th May—it was my duty to sell tickets—the prisoner came to buy a ticket; they were a penny each—he handed me this coin and passed it for a sixpence—I gave him fivepence change—I said "I believe it is a bad one"—he said "No, it is a good one, I believe"—I followed him and asked him if he meant to pass it as a good silver sixpence—he said yes, he did—I told him it was bad—a constable came and I gave him in charge—the coin was whiter, more of a silver colour than it is now—the prisoner handed me the coin head upwards with his left hand.

JOHN HANKEN (Police Sergeant NR 5). I was on duty at the Congress Hall meeting on 14th May—I was called by a friend of the last witness, and the prisoner was given into my charge for passing a bad sixpence, and this coin (produced) was handed to me as having been passed by him—I told him I should take him into custody for passing a counterfeit coin—he said it was good, he took it in change at a public-house—I asked him if he had any more about him; he said he had not—I said I should search his coat-tail pocket, and he then put his hand into that pocket and pulled out four exactly similar pieces—he then said he took them in change from a man at Limehouse for whom he had executed a little order, but he could not tell me the name of the street or house—I took him to the station, searched him, and found two half-crowns and a shilling and 11d. in bronze, all good.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . These are brass whist markers—they appear to have been whitened or silvered over and tendered for a sixpence—on the obverse is the head of the Queen, with "Victoria, Queen of Great Britain," a legend not found on any coin—on the other side is the

double-headed eagle of Austria or Russia—they are the same size as a sixpence and with the same edging—they are of no value—they would deceive a cursory view when white with the head upwards.

The prisoner received a good character.

GUILTY. Strongly recommended to mercy by the Jury on account of his previous good character. Two Months' Hard Labour.

28th May 1883
Reference Numbert18830528-568
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

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568. THOMAS BRYANT (20) , Robbery with violence on John Edwards Morris, and stealing from him 4l.

MR. METCALFE Prosecuted; MR. GEOGHEGAN Defended.

JOHN EDWARDS MORRIS . I live at 7, Prince of Wales's Road, Kentish Town, and am an agent—on 28th April, at 11.40 in the evening, I was walking along Oxford Street towards Tottenham Court Road with a friend, Charles Everett—when I got to the corner of New Oxford Street I saw five men standing at the corner—we took no notice of them, passed them, and they attempted to jostle against us as we went past—we got out of the way—about 40 yards farther on I heard footsteps behind and received a blow on my head, crushing my hat and partially stunning me—I did not see who struck it—I was thrown across the road by two or three of the men—my friend attempted to rescue me and the other men threw him down also, and I saw him knocked down—the men then ran away—I identify the prisoner as one of the three men who closed with me after I was struck and threw me across the road—after they had run away I found I had been robbed of four guineas, which had been in my left-hand trousers pocket—I had not felt anybody put his hand into my pocket, but I had felt an arm round me—I did not look on the ground to see if the sovereigns had fallen—I don't think the money could have fallen out of my pocket; I could not swear—I had moved a few yards and was talking to my friend a few minutes afterwards when two constables came up and the prisoner, and both of us recognised him at once.

Cross-examined. I had not known the prisoner before—I was in the act of turning round when I was knocked down from behind—it did not knock my hat over my nose—I can't say who it was struck the blow—the prisoner was one of the men who closed with me after I had received the blow—it was quite dark—my money was loose; I had the four sovereigns in one pocket, and 11 shillings and some coppers in the other—my watch was in my waistcoat pocket and my coat buttoned up.

CHARLES EVERETT . I live at 7, Prince of Wales's Road, and was with Morris on this night—I was walking by his side, just on his left—I saw the prisoner strike him; I saw his face distinctly; I could swear to him out of a thousand—I tried to get at him, and immediately the two men with the prisoner came behind me, and we wrestled for some time—I did not see or hear any money fall into the road—after Morris was thrown across the road he said "I believe I have been robbed"—the prisoner was brought back in a few seconds, and I recognised him at once—I have not the slightest doubt about him.

Cross-examined. I saw no hand put into the prosecutor's pocket—the whole affair only took three or four seconds—they put their hands round me; I did not lose anything.

CHARLES PRATT . I am a jeweller at 113, Great College Street, Camden Town—about 20 minutes to 12 on 28th April I was passing through

Silver Street, and saw two men coming from Tottenham Court Road; the prisoner was one—they joined three others coming from the direction of Tottenham Court Road; they were running—I had a good opportunity of seeing his face—shortly after I saw the constable bringing up the prisoner, and I told the constable which way they had run add recognised the prisoner as the man that joined the other three.

JOHN JORDAN (Policeman E 478). At a quarter to 12 on 28th April I saw the prisoner run up Southampton Street with two other men in the direction of Bloomsbury Street—two of them turned to the right into Vernon Street, and the prisoner turned to the left in the direction of Oxford Street—I afterwards saw the constable running after the prisoner—I caught him myself.

Cross-examined. He was taken to the station and searched; nothing was found on him.

JOSEPH TAPPING (Policeman E 649). At a quarter-past 13 on 28th April I was on duty in Dunn's Passage, and heard cries of "Stop thief"—ran out, and saw three men coming from the corner of Berry Street in the direction of the passage—I was about 20 yards from them when I first saw them—they turned immediately along Oxford Street, Berry Street, Silver street, Southampton Street, round Bloomsbury Street, and Prout Street—I followed all the time, running after them—I saw the prisoner stopped by Jordan, and I took him back to Oxford Street, where he was identified by the prosecutor and his friend, and charged with assault and robbery—in answer to the charge he said "I am innocent."

Cross-examined. I first saw him 10 or 12 yards from the spot where the assault was committed—from the time I first saw him to the time he was taken into custody I had my eye on him and did not see him throw away anything or pass anything to his companions.

GUILTY . Nine Months' Hard Labour.

28th May 1883
Reference Numbert18830528-569
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

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569. HENRY DAWSON, Stealing two bags and 20l., the property of Her Majesty's Postmaster-General.

MESSRS. COWIE, Q.C., and BAGGALLAY Prosecuted; MR. BEGUN Defended.

CHARLES CARTER . I am a Post-office receiver and stationer at 72, Mare Street, Hackney—on the morning of 10th May I was in my office; a man came in and purchased two postage-stamps and tendered a sovereign—I gave him change from one of two money bags in the post-office till; I returned the bags to the till—in one bag was a 5l. note and 6s. 6d. in silver, and in the other, from which I had given the change, were 15l. 10s. 11d. in gold and silver coin—7 or 10 minutes after the prisoner came in and asked for two stamps; I believe he paid in coppers, I don't recollect giving him any change—he went towards the door and got outside, and then pushed the door back again and said "Sir, there is a gentleman at the door wants to speak to you"—he went out; I did not notice which way he went—I went outside, leaving nobody in the shop—I saw outside at the far corner of the shop, sitting in a pony trap, the man who had previously been in and to whom I had given change for the sovereign—he beckoned me, and I went out to him—I was outside in conversation with the man in the trap two or three minutes—I did not see the prisoner then—in the meantime I had been back to the shop and fetched three books to show to the man in the trap—when I got back to the shop I saw the prisoner backing out of the shop door; his hands

were in front of him—I pushed against the door and so edged him back into the shop again, because I had seen a third man at the door while I was standing in conversation with the man in the trap—he said "I wanted some marking ink, do you keep it?" I said "Yes, come along," and so edged him back into the shop—the door swung to, and I stood between the door and him; there was nobody else in the shop—he said "I came in for some marking ink, but never mind, some other time will do;" I made no reply, but stood against the door—he said "Why are you detaining me?" I said "I must detain you"—he said "What for? have I stolen anything?" I then tried to attract my wife's attention by knocking on the floor—seeing my little boy come in the shop parlour at the back I called out to him to run and tell his mother she was wanted, and she came—I asked her to bring me my keys, and I locked the shop door—the prisoner said "What have you locked me in for? Have I stolen anything?" I then said "I will let you know"—I walked from the shop door to the post-office, my wife following me, unlocked the till, and found the two bags of money gone—nobody had come in the shop from the time I had given the first man change for the sovereign till the prisoner came in—on finding the two bags gone I came out and said "There are two bags gone from my till, you have stolen them and you have got them;" he said "I have not got your money"—I told him I should charge him with the theft—my wife said "Go to Mr. Bierman," a neighbour; I went out by the side private entrance, through the shop parlour, leaving the front door locked—I came back in two or three minutes; the prisoner was still there—he said "You say I have stolen your money, look again and see if you have lost anything;" I looked in the till again, the bags were not there—I said "The bags are not here, you have got them;" he said "Look everywhere, search everywhere"—looking up I saw the two bags deposited on an inkstand at the far extremity of the desk, about four feet from the till—if I am standing at the counter with the till just under me there is a screen six feet high in front of me with pigeon-holes through which customers would pay their money and take their stamps, one hole is for money-orders and the other for stamps—I said "Here are the bags, but you have stolen them from the till, and have replaced them where they are; I shall charge you all the same"—I gave him in charge—I never put my money bags at that end of the counter—a clergyman came in while the first man was buying his stamps, he was on the other side of the counter; he did not come on post-office business—there was nobody in the shop from that time till when the prisoner came in—I am satisfied I put the bag back in the till and turned the key; I left the key in the till.

Cross-examined. I dare say 12 minutes elapsed between the first man coming in and the time I missed the bags—when I was standing talking to the man in the trap my face was towards the door of the shop—the trap was about six paces from the shop-door, not opposite the door, but at the other corner—it was a pony-cart—I never lost sight of the shop-door—I am positive nobody came into the shop while I was speaking to the man in the trap—I did not use force to edge the prisoner in the shop—I simply pushed him in; I cannot say he resisted—I am quite sure I put these bags back in the till—I had never left them out before—it is my practice to leave the key in the drawer

daring business hours—I am constantly going to it—when I had edged the prisoner in the door swung to—he made no attempt to get past me—I only came into the shop once while serving the man in the trap—my eye was always on the shop except when I walked from the shop to the trap—I found the bags about two or three minutes after I had missed them—I did not search for them anywhere except in the till—my wife was in the room adjoining the shop when I went out to fetch my neighbour—she could not from there see behind the partition of the post-office—she could not see the spot where I found the bags when I returned—I saw nobody in the shop when I went out to the trap with the books.

By the COURT. The prisoner had on a long overcoat; I don't think it was buttoned at that time; it reached down to his knees—the bags were ordinary money bags, not tied round at all—the contents of the bags were correct when I received them back; they had not been tampered with in any way.

MARY ANN CARTER . I am the wife of the last witness—I was called into the shop on 10th May from the kitchen below—I found my husband endeavouring to keep the prisoner in—my husband called to me to bring him his keys, and he then locked the shop door—he walked into the post-office, opened the till, and we saw the two money bags were gone—the post-office department is separated from the shop by a partition at the end of the shop—I said "Fetch Mr. Bierman across"—my husband told the prisoner he should fetch a constable, and he left by the side door, through the shop parlour, and down the private passage, and into the street to fetch the neighbour—I shut a little door, and put down a mahogany flap, hooked up against the partition, and walked round into the parlour—I stood in the parlour, and could see the part of the shop directly in front of me, but not that part behind the post-office, where the pigeon-holes were—a person could have put anything through the pigeon-holes without my seeing him—the prisoner walked to and fro in the shop, so that at times he was behind the partition, and I could not see him—I could not see the spot at which the bags were found; it was right in the corner—my husband was away two or three minutes it seemed.

Cross-examined. A person who did not know my back parlour would be able to judge how far I could see into the shop, because he could not see me unless I stood in the doorway of the parlour—when I first came in the shop my husband was standing against the front door, and the prisoner was in front of him—there is only one entrance to the shop—there is a private door at the side—my husband shut that behind him when he went out—the prisoner made no attempt to get out of that; he remained passing to and fro in the shop—I did not attempt to see what he did when he went behind the poet-office—I kept away from him.

Re-examined. The prisoner could not have got out by the door by which my husband left without going through the parlour, and I, my mother, and two or three children were there.

BERNARD COURTNEY (Policeman N 260). The prisoner was given into my custody on 10th May—I asked Mr. Carter if he had recovered the money—he said "Yes," and he still wished to charge the prisoner with stealing it—I told him I should take him to the station, and anything he wished to say he was to say to the inspector down there—he made no statement.

GUILTY Nine Months Herd Labour.

NEW COURT.—Monday, May 28th, 1883.

Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

28th May 1883
Reference Numbert18830528-570
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

Related Material

570. WILLIAM DAY (25) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.

MESSRS. LLOYD and HICKS Prosecuted.

ABRAHAM JOSEPH LEARNER . I am a Russian—on 25th April I was hawking tortoises with a barrow, and the prisoner and another man came up one on each side of me—the other man bought a tortoise and gave me 1s.—I gave him 6d. change and found the shilling was bad after they left—they came back in 5 or 10 minutes for another tortoise, and the prisoner gave me a half-crown—I saw it was a bad one, and said "You gave me a bad shilling before"—I threw down the half-crown and he picked it up—they both ran away and I ran after him, he fell down and I caught hold of him and said "Give me back my shilling and my sixpence,"—he gave them to me—I gave him in custody with the shilling.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. You were not too drunk to run away but you fell down over a lady—I do not think you were drunk.

By the COURT. I identify the half-crown by its being a little bent—I did not give him change for it, I had not time.

JAMES WHITE (Policeman B 184). On 25th April, about 7 p.m., I saw the prisoner running in Montpelier Street, Brompton, and Learner after him—he fell down at the corner of Beaufort Gardens—I think he ran against a boy, but I was on the other side of the way—he handed something to Learner which Learner said was a sixpence, and said he and another man went to buy a tortoise, and the other man tendered a bad shilling, and the prisoner went back in about 10 minutes and tendered a bad florin for a 2d. tortoise, which he threw down on the barrow and accused him of having given a bad shilling before—the prisoner said that he received the half-crown from a lady for carrying some luggage, and he was not with the other man, and knew nothing about the shilling—he dropped the half-crown while I had hold of him, and I picked it up.

Cross-examined. You were perfectly sober.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . I am Inspector of Coin to Her Majesty's Mint—this shilling and half-crown are bad.

Prisoner's Defence. I had a half-crown given to me and I gave it to this man. I did not know it was bad. I was so drunk I did not know what I was doing; it is the first time I was ever locked up for such a thing.

GUILTY **.— Fifteen Months' Hard labour.

28th May 1883
Reference Numbert18830528-571
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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571. HENRY HEARD (30) , Feloniously uttering counterfeit coin.

MESSRS. CRAUFURD and LLOYD Prosecuted; Mr. FRITH Defended.

GEORGE HALLETT . I am an Indian rubber manufacturer at 22, Castle Street, Leicester Square—on 28th April, about 4.30 p.m., the prisoner came and asked for a "letter," the price of which was 6d.—he gave me a half-crown and I gave him 2s. change—he left, and my man drew my attention to the coin, and I found it was bad—I showed it to a policeman on duty outside, he marked it, and I afterwards gave it up at the station.

Cross-examined. I am deaf—the prisoner was as sober as he is now—the coin never went out of my hand.

GEORGE SMITH . I am Mr. Hallett's shopman—on 28th April, about 4.15 or 4.30, I was outside the shop and saw two men standing together; one of them was like the prisoner, but his back was turned to me—I think he was in the shop the day before—the other man was Hawkins. (See next case.) The man like the prisoner went into the shop and I followed him—he asked Mr. Hallett for a "letter," and Mr. Hallett gave him some change—I spoke to Mr. Hallett and he showed me this coin—here are my teeth marks on it—I went outside, and while I was speaking to Saunders I saw the two men go into a urinal—we waited till they came out—the prisoner is one and Hawkins the other—I ran after them calling "Stop thief," a constable stopped him.

Cross-examined. The urinal is 300 yards from the shop, and I was about 20 yards from it when they came out—the road was up, but a cab could pass—I did not keep my eye on them till they got to the urinal, but Saunders did.

THOMAS SAUNDERS . I am a messenger to Mr. Hallett—I saw Heard and Hawkins outside the shop about 4.15 or 4.30 in conversation for about two minutes—Smith came down the road, and the moment they saw him speak to me Heard went into the shop—Smith followed him in—Heard came out and joined Hawkins, and I followed them through Beak Street into Leicester Square, they went into a urinal—they both came out, and I seized Heard by his collar, and said "I want you"—he struck me on my mouth with his fist, and got away—I followed him—he went down Large Court, Leicester Square, and took a turning, and when I got to the corner I could see nothing of him—on 5th May I picked him out from five or six others at Vine Street Station.

Cross-examined. The prisoner had been drinking.

GEORGE HONEYWELL (Policeman C 63). On 6th April I was on duty in Leicester Square in plain clothes, and saw Hawkins come out of the urinal, and ran and chased him with Smith—he threw this parcel away in King Street, and a shilling fell out of it and jingled on the pavement—another constable stopped him—I picked up the shilling, and went down an area, and found this paper containing three shillings with paper between each—on Saturday, 5th May, about 9.30 a.m., I saw Heard in Theobald's Road—I had received a description of him, and said "Is your name Henry Heard?"—he said "Yes"—I said "I want you for uttering a counterfeit half-crown at 22, Castle Street, Leicester Square"—he said "It is a mistake; it is not me"—going to the station he said "I have done time before for counterfeit, but nothing to it since"—I found no money on him—I received this half-crown from Mr. Hallett—Heard was placed with six others at the station, and Saunders picked him out.

Cross-examined. He had just come out from doing seven days for being drunk and disorderly—I took him about half a mile from the House of Detention—I did not notice that he had been drinking—he asked me for a glass of beer, and I gave it to him.

HENRY DYER (Policeman C 126). On 28th April, about 4.30, I stopped Hawkins in King Street, took these two half-crowns out of his hand, and gave them to Honeywell—I saw Honeywell pick up a bad shilling on top of the area of No. 62.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . This half-crown is bad—these two half-crowns taken from Hawkins's hand are bad, and one of them is from the same mould as the one uttered—these four are alto bad.

Witnesses for the Defence.

JOSEPH WARBURTON . I live at 12, Henry Street, Hampstead Road—the prisoner worked with me for twelve months—I remember his being locked up for being drunk on 28th April—I met him that day at 11 a.m. at the Cranbourne Arms, and was with him till 5 or a quarter past, when I left him in Long Acre the worse for drink—I got home at a little after 6 o'clock—during the time I was with him he did not go to 22, Castle Street, Leicester Square—he was not nearer Leicester Square than Long Acre—he never left my company.

Cross-examined. I am no relation of his—we were in public-houses between 11 and 5 o'clock.

JOSEPH PAYNE (Policeman C 224). On 28th April, at 5.30, I arrested the prisoner on a charge of being drunk and disorderly at the Grapes, Seven Dials, and he was sentenced to seven days in default of paying a fine—he was drunk and disorderly when I saw him.

Cross-examined. He was in Great Earl Street, rather less than half a mile from Castle Street, Leicester Square—it was not later than 5.30—it took me 10 minutes to walk to Bow Street, and it was then 5.40.

Re-examined. He was in the street with a crowd round him—he was not very drunk—I found a good shilling on him.


He then PLEADED GUILTY to a previous conviction in the name of Henry Weedon in May, 1880, of uttering counterfeit coin.

28th May 1883
Reference Numbert18830528-572
VerdictGuilty > unknown; Guilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour; Imprisonment > hard labour

Related Material

572. HENRY HEARD was again indicted, with CHARLES HAWKINS (31) , for unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.


The evidence of GEORGE HALLETT, GEORGE SMITH, THOMAS SAUNDERS, GEORGE HONEYWELL, and HENRY DYER was read to them from the shorthand writer's notes, to which they assented; and MR. WEBSTER repeated his former evidence.

Hawkins's Defence. I can't speak very well; I shall put my foot in it in some way, and I don't wish to say anything; but the policeman says he did not pick up this coin till I was going to the station; it is very easy to say that.

HEARD— GUILTY **.— Two Years' Hard Labour.

HAWKINS— GUILTY **.— Eighteen Months' Hard Labour.

OLD COURT.—Tuesday, May 29th, 1883.

Before Mr. Justice Hawkins.

28th May 1883
Reference Numbert18830528-573
VerdictNot Guilty > no evidence

Related Material

573. MARY ANN GOSS was charged, on the Coroner's Inquisition only, with the manslaughter of Elizabeth Hasmer.

MR. POLAND, for the Prosecution, offered no evidence.


28th May 1883
Reference Numbert18830528-575
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

Related Material

575. JAMES BASTAPLE (36) , Feloniously delivering to Charles Thomas Fleetwood a letter threatening to murder him.

MESSRS. COWIE, Q.C., and BAGGALIAY Prosecuted.

CHARLES THOMAS FLEETWOOD . I am senior inspector of the Underground Telegraphs in London—the prisoner was in the service for the last 10 years, on and off—in March last I dismissed him under instructions I had received—I paid him his wages, and he gave me a

receipt—after that he leant across the table, and asked if I had done with him—I said "Yes"—he said "I have not done with you"—he repeated that twice—after that he brought me in debt 2s.—I paid him the 2s., and he left—that was on 9th March—he came again on the Wednesday before the 28th April—he came and said "I have seen Mr. Eaton, and he has referred me to you"—he asked me to take him on again—I pointed out to him that I was responsible for the conduct of the men that I was in charge of, and through his giving way to intemperate habits I could not employ him again—I said I would go and see Mr. Eaton—he said he should like to go with me—we went, and Mr. Eaton pointed out to him that he could not interfere with the men and myself, and that if I required his services I should write to him, and he could understand if he did not hear from me I should not require him—on the 28th April the prisoner came to the office and asked to be taken on again—I refused, and he left the office—as he was leaving he said he should like to make a few remarks about Langley, the foreman—I told him if he had any complaints to make about Langley or myself to put it in writing and send it to the secretary—he then left—that was about half-past eleven—I do not think he was the worse for drink—he was excited like a man the worse for drink, but he was not so bad as I have seen him on many occasions—I don't think he was excited by drink—I left my office and returned in about 20 minutes, and then found this letter on my desk—it is the prisoner's writing—I opened it and read it. (The letter being read, contained the following expressions: "If I had strength I should have removed you this morning, but shall wait for a better opportunity; I will not fail; there is another that deserves the same fate as yourself, Benjamin Langley; he is a double traitor. I will be even with him yet; he is a bad man, and will meet with a bad end; so you and him prepare to meet your God, for I will certainly settle the pair of you. I have spoken to others about it; I give you warning, so that you may prepare; as for myself, I am lost.—JAMES BASTAPLE.")

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. Before you left the office you mentioned about working privately for me—I asked Mr. Hook if he wanted a man, and I told him you promised to be a teetotaller.

BENJAMIN LANGLEY . I am foreman of the Underground Telegraph lines—the prisoner served under me for about seven months—I have been about 24 years in the service—I have seen this letter—I believe I am the Benjamin Langley referred to in the letter.

FREDERICK WILLIAM HEATH . I am a linesman in the telegraph department of the Post-office—I know the prisoner—I saw him on the morning of 28th April at the office of Mr. Fleet wood in Moorgate Street Buildings—I saw him place a letter on Mr. Fleetwood's desk at nearly 12 o'clock.

Cross-examined. You appeared to be very ill on the 27th.

WILLIAM POTTS (City Detective). On 2nd May I apprehended the prisoner—I told him it was for writing a threatening letter to Mr. Fleetwood—he said "It is quite right; I did it; when I have a little drink I don't know what I am about."

Prisoner's Defence. I can only say that I did not intend doing it.

GUILTY. The Jury expressed an opinion that the prisoner did not intend to carry out the threat. Fifteen Months' Hard labour.

28th May 1883
Reference Numbert18830528-575a
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

Related Material

575. ROBERT JAMES BOOLEY (26) was indicted for, and charged on the Coroner's Inquisition with, the manslaughter of Frances Croft.


MR. STRONG Defended.

HETTY CASTLETON . I am single—I did live at 31, Gertrude Street—the deceased, Frances Croft, was the landlady and occupied the drawing-room floor—Jennie Lowry occupied the parlours—Minnie Clinton had a bedroom upstairs and I allowed her the use of my drawing-room—there was no man living in the house to my knowledge—I have known the prisoner between four and five years—I am an unfortunate girl and have had relations with the prisoner—he is a cabman—I don't know when the landlady slept, I suppose downstairs, I had only been at the house about four days—on the night of 2nd May I came home with a gentleman a little before 1—Jennie Lowry let us in—she was up and dressed but not prepared to go out—I did not see the landlady when I went in, I went straight up to the drawing-room with the gentleman—while there a single knock came to the door—the landlady opened it and the prisoner came up to the drawing-room—he said nothing, but he came in and struck me in the face, but not to hurt me—it was a blow on the cheek with his hand—he said nothing—he then went out of the room—I was a little intoxicated—after he had gone downstairs I came out of the drawing-room with the gentleman—an altercation took place in the hall between the prisoner and the landlady—I was then on the stairs with the gentleman—I could see what took place—the landlady called the prisoner some bad names—I did not hear what it was—she struck him and he struck her back, I could not say exactly where—there was a scuffle—the gentleman and I came downstairs together—the gentleman went out of the house first and ran across the road in Aubery Street, and I followed him—as I passed out I saw Jennie Lowry in the hall—the was intoxicated—I ran across after the gentleman, he did not take any notice of me, and then I followed the prisoner—he had come downstairs and got on to his cab and he drove round to the comer of Gertrude Street—I left the landlady on the steps as I left the house to cross the road—the prisoner was on his cab at the time I last saw the landlady on the steps—he went out first, and as I went out the landlady was still on the steps—as far as I can remember she was on the front door steps—when I went after the prisoner I told him I was very much annoyed with him through losing this gentleman friend—Minnie Clinton was there—he got off his cab and told me to be quiet and tried to pacify me—he took a fur tippet out of the cab and put it on me—it was not mine—I did not say anything about it—I gave it to the inspector—I went back to the house with the tippet on my shoulders—when I was talking to him at the cab Emily Jenner and Burton were there—I have told you all I said to the prisoner when they were there—I am perfectly sure of that—I never alluded to the landlady—I did not say to the prisoner in their presence "You know you struck the landlady and pushed her down the area"—I never said anything like it—I said nothing about the landlady or the area—I swear it—the prisoner did not say "She is like you, an old cow," nothing of the sort—I was sober enough to know what did happen—there was no conversation between the prisoner and me except my telling him that I was very much annoyed with him—he got off his cab and put the fur cape on me; he tried to pacify me—he told me to be

quiet—Jenner and Burton said to me "Now, be quirt, don't upset him"—I told them it was nothing to do with them—the prisoner took the fur tippet from his cab—it was a Hansom—Minnie Clinton was there talking to him as I left the house with the gentleman—after putting on the tippet I went back to the house, leaving the prisoner—when I got back to 31 I tried the door and found it shut—I saw Jennie Lowry on the top step of the front door calling to me to pick Mrs. Croft up, she had fallen over—Mrs. Croft was then on the grass plot—I then went round to the corner of Gertrude Street to Minnie Clinton, where she was still talking to the prisoner—I could not swear whether he was on his cab or on the ground—I did not say anything to him about having struck Mrs. Croft and pushed her down the area—I spoke to Clinton, not to the prisoner—I asked Clinton to come back to the house the landlady I thought was in a fit—the prisoner said nothing to that—Clinton came straight away with me—I thought it was a fit, because she was subject to fits, she had a fit during the four days I was there—when I went back with Clinton I Knocked at the door and could not get admittance, no one came—Clinton went for a doctor, and I followed her—I saw the landlady on the grass plot, Clinton and I looked at her—I did not see that she was bleeding from the mouth, you could not see her head—I did not touch her—we did not try to lift her up or speak to her—we went as far as Lamont Road—Clinton went on alone for the doctor, I stayed in Lamont Road—she came back with a policeman and we went straight back to the house—Mrs. Croft was still lying on the grass plot—when the prisoner gave me the tippet he was about as far from the house as I am from the end of this court—Mrs. Croft was partly dressed, her naked feet were exposed—Jenner and Barton felt her first, they said she was cold—they left her there—I was there when the doctor came, that was about twenty minutes after I had got back—he said she was dead, and the body was taken away on a stretcher—the last time I saw the prisoner before this Tuesday night was on the Friday, he slept with me there that night.

Cross-examined. He did not see the landlady that night—Lowry was dressed when she let him in on the Tuesday; she was the worse for drink—after the prisoner came up and struck me went downstairs and a scuffle took place in the half—I saw the scuffle, the push he gave was not a severe one—the landlady did not tumble down; the scuffle lasted a minute or two, I was on the stairs with the gentleman waiting to come down—the prisoner then went away and got on his cab, and the gentleman and I followed down after—when we went out Mr. Croft and Jennie Lowry were standing in the hall, I saw them both standing on the steps.

By the COURT. I could see No. 31 from the place where the prisoner gave me the tippet—I was absent from the house 5 or 10 minutes before Lowry called me and said that Mrs. Croft had fallen over—I had not been out of sight of the house—I heard no scream or noise—I did not ask the prisoner to go and assist; he was the worse for drink.

BLANCHE LOWRY . I am not married—I was living at 31, Gertrude Street, and had been for four months—I occupied a dining-room and bed-room on the ground-floor—Mrs. Croft was the landlady—she had no servant, she used to have a charwoman—on the night in question I went home between 1 and 2 o'clock alone; I was sober—the door was open,

and several policemen were in my room—I did not leave the house till 12 o'clock—while I was in my room I heard a disturbance in the hall—Castleton had come in at that time—I do not know who let her in, I did not, I was in the bed-room; there is a door from that into the hall—I heard a scuffling, and heard the landlady call some one a brute to strike an old woman—I did not hear any reply made—when I went out into the hall Castleton and the prisoner were there—the prisoner was on the steps under the portico—the street-door was open—I don't know when Mrs. Croft was then; I did not see her—Castleton said "Mrs. Croft has been pitched over there," and she ran after the prisoner and I ran with her—the prisoner was then at the bottom of the steps—they ran to the corner of Gertrude Street—I stopped there—he said if I rounded on him he would smash my face—I was close to him when he said that, it the corner of Limerston Street; he had not got on his cab; I left him quarrelling with the woman Castleton; he tried to drive away on his cab, but stopped—I was going a short distance, and when I returned in about half an hour or more I found the door open and the police there, and they said the woman was dead, and they were taking her away on the ambulance—it is not true that when I came back to the house Castleton told me that the landlady had fallen over; I did not see her—I did not say that the landlady was in a fit—I never saw her in a fit the whole time I was with her; I never heard of her having fits—she slept in the breakfast-room, downstairs, under mine—the last time I saw her she was in bed there—she was sober—we did not have latchkeys—I believe the street-door was open when I left the house.

Cross-examined. I don't know where Mrs. Croft was when I left the house—I and Hetty Castleton ran after the prisoner after she said that her landlady was pushed over—"Come after him with me," she said that while standing at the door—I did not look over to see whether she was there or not—I went after the man—he was round by the corner of Limerston Street—I did not go back to see what had become of Mrs. Croft; I was bound to go somewhere—I decline to answer where I went—I said before the Magistrate that I was a married woman.

MINNIE CLINTON . I went to live at 31, Gertrude Street on the Friday before this happened—I had the use of the drawing-room and a bed-room on the second floor—on the morning of 2nd May I was coming down Gertrude Street—the prisoner was on his cab at the corner, and Castleton was standing there without her hat—she came across the road and remonstrated with the prisoner for losing her friend and money—the prisoner said nothing to me to my knowledge—I asked her to come back with me—she did so; she went first; she said "Minnie, come, I think my landlady is in a fit; go for a doctor or a policeman"—I could not tell if the prisoner could hear that, he said nothing—when Castleton and I went back to the house we found the door shut—the landlady was lying on the grass slope—I went for a doctor; he came in about 20 minutes—I was not quite sober—I had seen the prisoner at the house once before.

Cross-examined. The prisoner was quite calm and collected—I spoke to him on ordinary topics—I did not see the prisoner leave—I never saw him after he was standing at the corner of Gertrude Street—when I went back with Castleton I did not see him any more—I did not speak to him at all after Castleton told me that the landlady was in a fit; all I said

was "Bob, is that you?" and he said "Is that you, Minnie?"—that was all—I got a policeman—I went for Dr. Haynes and rang the bell, and I went again, and as I was coming along I saw the policeman and asked him to call Dr. Haynes.

EMILY JENNER . I am single, and live at 31, Limerston Street, adjoining Gertrude Street—on the morning in question I went home about a quarter-past 1—I heard some words at the corner of Limerston Street—I saw Hetty Castleton—I knew her before—I saw the prisoner there; I had seen him before—his cab was there—he and Castleton were on the pavement—she had no bonnet on—Burton and Clinton were there—I was quite sober, and Burton was quite sober—I went where they were, and I heard Castleton say to the prisoner, "You know you struck my landlady in the hall and threw her down the area"—he said, "Your landlady is like you, an old cow"—I saw him pass a fur tippet to Castleton—he got it out of the cab—she put it on; she told him at first to take it back, it did not belong to her—I did not hear him say anything—she went back to the house with it on—I did not hear her say anything to the prisoner before she left—I and Castleton and Burton and Clinton went to the house, leaving the prisoner at the corner of Gertrude Street still on the pavement—we went and knocked at the street door, and when we were coming down we saw the deceased down on the grass slope by the side of the portico—we both went down to her; she was lying doubled up, with her head underneath; her feet were away from the house—Norah felt her first, and I afterwards—I did not think she was quite cold; she was dead—I saw blood on her face—we did not move her—I remained; Clinton and a man went for Dr. Haynes—some man told the prisoner that the woman was dead, he had better go away, and he went away—he was on his cab, and he drove round to the house, and I saw no more of him.

Cross-examined. I went to the police-station that night and saw the inspector, and told the same story that I have told to-day—I gave evidence before the Magistrate on the second day.

NORAH BURTON . On the morning of 2nd May I was with Emily Jenner going down Limerston Street—when I got to the corner of Gertrude Street I saw a Hansom cab standing with its head towards Overy Street—the prisoner was standing on the pavement, and Castleton was quarrelling with him—I heard her say "You have thrown my landlady over the area"—the prisoner turned round and said he did not throw her down, she had fallen down—she made no answer to that; he went to strike her; she went behind me and Jenner to avoid the blow, and said she did not want her face injured—I heard the prisoner say something about a cow, but I do not know whether he meant Mrs. Croft or Castleton—she had a fur tippet on—I and Castleton, Jenner and Clinton went round to 31 and found Mrs. Croft lying on the green slope with both legs exposed—I touched them and found they were cold, and I began to scream—after that the prisoner drove round to the house on his cab, and I saw him standing on the pavement—some of the women told him to get on his cab and drive away, and he did so—I and Jenner went to the police-station and saw the inspector, and he sent two constables to the house with us—at that time I was living at 39, Lamont Road—I was locked up on the following Monday for assaulting a constable, and received a month's imprisonment.

Cross-examined. I gave no evidence before the Magistrate—this is the first time I have told this story.

HORACE THORPE (Policeman T 216). I was fetched by Jenner and Burton between 1.55 and 1.50 on the morning in question; they were both sober—from what they said to me I went at once to 31, Gertrude Street—I saw the landlady lying on the grass by the side of the portico, with her feet away from the portico, and the head doubled under the left shoulder, the arms were under the body; she was lying on her stomach, the head was about 2 feet 9 inches from the portico, blood was oozing from the mouth—the side of the portico was open—she was lying in rather a peculiar position—I could not account for it—I went up the steps—I found a slipper on the steps just in front of the door, on the door sill, pointing towards the door; another slipper was found underneath her—I did not see it found—I saw it afterwards.

WILLIAM DEMAIN (Police Inspector T). About 2 o'clock in the morning of 2nd May I received information from Dr. Haynes, and went to the house, where I saw the deceased lying on the grass—the description of it by the last witness is correct, except that the body had been straightened out a little—about 5 o'clock in the morning I went to 89, Aldersgate Street—I remained outside and sent Cronin and Ross in—they came out with the prisoner—I took him to Chelsea Station—he was there charged with the murder of Mrs. Croft—it was read to him—he made no reply.

Cross-examined. I did not caution him.

PATRICK CRONIN (Police Inspector). I went to Aldersgate Street, and went into the room where the prisoner was—I told him I was a police-officer, and should take him into custody for striking Mrs. Croft in the passage of 31, Gertrude Street, Chelsea, and knocking her down on to the grass plot in front of the house, and that she was dead—he said "I did not strike her or knock her down"—his brother was in the room at the time—I saw Jenner and Burton that night when they came to the station—they were both sober.

LUCY HAYNES . I live at 2, Sidemore Street—the deceased was my neice—I saw her alive on 30th April, between 6 and 7 o'clock in the evening—she was quite well then—she was about 62 years of age, and a healthy woman—she was never subject to fits—I afterwards saw her dead at the dead-house.

Cross-examined. I did not live with her; I lived over the water—I saw her very often, and last saw her about three weeks or a month before her death.

JAMES ROBERT HAYNES . I am a surgeon, of 68, Limerston Street, Chelsea—I was called a few minutes before 2 o'clock; I got up and went to 31, Gertrude Street, accompanied by a policeman—I found the body of the deceased lying on a grass slope on the right-hand side of the portico going up to the house, with her head towards the railings and her feet towards the house—there was a division between the column of the portico and the house, room enough for a person to go through; if she had fallen or been pushed through, she was just in the direction I should expect to have found her—she was quite dead, and I should think had been dead within an hour; the body was beginning to cool—her feet were bare; she had some clothing on—blood was oozing from the mouth—she was a medium-sized woman, not thin—I made a post-mortem examination—I concluded the cause of

death to be compression of the brain from effusion of blood beneath the skull—there was a contusion on the back of the head on the right side, corresponding with the internal clot of blood; that was the fatal injury—a fall or push from the portico might account for it; the distance is about 5 feet—there were contusions on each side of the forehead, on the right side of the mouth, and a slight one on the left buttock; the lower jaw was fractured, and one of the teeth knocked out—that might be occasioned by a fall or a blow; not the same fall as produced the injury to the back of the head—a powerful blow from a man's fist would fracture the jaw—there was grass where she fell, but a hard ground—all the injuries were recent—I could not detect any smell of drink—I saw the slipper on the top step; I did not see the second one.

EDMOND BLAKE (Policeman TR 24). I made this plan—it is made to scale—there are steps leading up to the portico, then a large stone slab under the portico, and a ledge of 4 inches into the house—the width between the pillar and the wall of the house is 2 feet 7 inches; the distance from the stone to the ground is 5 feet 5 inches.

GUILTY .— Eighteen Months' Hard labour.

28th May 1883
Reference Numbert18830528-576
VerdictNot Guilty > non compos mentis
SentenceImprisonment > insanity

Related Material

576. SARAH CHISWELL (60) , Feloniously wounding Isabella Potts, with intent to murder her.

MR. DE MICHELE Prosecuted; MR. GILL Defended.

WILLIAM CROFT . I am a groom, of 8, Nelson Place, Spring Grove, Kew Bridge—the prisoner lived in the third house from me—on the morning of the 17th, at 9 o'clock, I was in the back garden—the prisoner called to me "Mr. Croft, will you come in? I have cut my aunt's throat"—I directly went into the house and found the aunt sitting on a chair with a handkerchief to her throat saturated with blood—I asked the prisoner for the razor—she said it was in her pocket; she took it out of her pocket; I took her by the wrist and held her hand till she opened her hand and dropped it—she said "A very dreadful thing this," or something to that effect; "I read prayers to my aunt this morning and asked her if she was ready to go; she said she was, and I cut her throat"—that was about all she said—she was rambling for some time afterwards—she was wonderfully excited.

Cross-examined. The aunt had been living by me for some years—I had known the prisoner about nine or ten months—she was very fond of her aunt—she had been suffering for some time before this—she said she did not do this out of any animosity; she said she thought her aunt would go to glory.

ISABELLA POTTS . I am the prisoner's aunt—a little after 9 o'clock on the morning of the 17th she came into the room, and told me to sit down in the chair—I saw something in her hand—I said "What have you got in your hand?"—I saw a razor in her hand—she put her arm round my neck, and she cut me twice in the throat—she said she was going to take me out of my misery—I called out, and Mr. Croft came in.

Cross-examined. She has always been very much attached to me—she has not been well for some time—she was suffering from hysteria, or something of that kind—I am sure she would not willingly injure me—she said she wished me to go to my sister in heaven.

The Prisoner's Statement before the Magistrate. "I did it under the influence that I was going to send her to heaven."

Witness for the Defence.

OLIVER TREADWELL, M.R.C.S . I am assistant surgeon at Clerkenwell Prison—I have seen the prisoner since 17th till 26th—she was under my sole observation—in my opinion she was of unsound mind—she has delusions of a religious character—I think she is not responsible for her actions.


on the ground of insanity.— To be detained till Her Majesty's pleasure be known.

NEW COURT.—Tuesday, May 29, 1883.

Before Mr. Recorder.

28th May 1883
Reference Numbert18830528-577
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

Related Material

577. JOHN HAY (36) , Stealing a bale of silk, the property of the Great Eastern Railway Company. Second Count, feloniously receiving the same. (See page 34.)

MESSRS. FULTON and BEARD Prosecuted; MR. FRITH watched the case on behalf of the prisoner, who claimed the tight of cross-examination for himself.

HERCOLE FUMIGANI (Interpreted). I am a packer in the employ of Meesrs. Gesler, of Milan—on 15th December, 1882, I packed a bale of 96 kilogrammes of silk which we had manufactured for Zwyfer and Co., of New Bond Street—it was marked "G. G. 106," and delivered to the railway company to be sent to this country—this (produced) is a portion of it—each thread has three twists, and I identify it as the same.

THOMAS BURKE . I am a checker in the employ of the Great Eastern Railway, at Harwich—on 23rd December I checked a bale of silk marked "G. G. 106" from the steamboat Claud Harrington into railway truck No. 1362, which was sent to Bishopsgate Street—I made this entry in my book at the time.

GEOROE WRIGHT . I am a checker at Bishopsgate Station—on 23rd December I checked a bale marked "G. G. 106" out of truck 1362, which had come from Harwich, and placed it on the platform to be warehoused.

CHARLES BURROUGHS . I am in the employ of the Great Eastern Railway, Bishopsgate Street—on 29th December I checked "G. G. 106," consigned to Zwyfer and Co., of New Bond Street—I was then taking stock—special search has been made for it, and I cannot trace it.

JOSEPH EDWIN MARNEY . I am manager to Zwyfer and Co.—on October 27 we sent an order for 200 kilogrammes of special make silk, three-thread strand—on December 16 I received a letter advising me that the bale had been dispatched, marked "G. G. 106," value 230l.—I have never received it.

SAMUEL YENDALL . I am driver of cab 1283—on 25th January, about 10.15 or 10.30, the prisoner beckoned to me in Shepherdess Walk, and I followed him with my cab about 150 yards, to a little haberdasher's shop—he went in at the private door round the corner, and kept me waiting about half an hour, and then brought out the biggest of these two bags (produced), and in about five minutes the second bag—he said that he wanted to go to Sutton's booking-office in Aldersgate Street—I said "There is no Sutton's in Aldersgate Street now, it is in Golden Lane"—he said "Go there; would you like a glass of ale?"—I said "Yes"—we stopped at a public-house about 100 yards off, and I had a drop of rum

and Water and he had a glass of ale—we then drove to Golden Lane, which is five or six minutes' drive from the haberdasher's shop—he got out there and closed the door, and I never saw any more of him—I was left with the bag, which turned out to contain silk—I gave it to the police—I was kept the whole day—I went back to the haberdasher's shop—on 8th March I received a communication, and went into a public-house in Hackney Road, and when I got inside I identified the prisoner as the man who hired my cab on 25th January—a day or two afterwards I saw the prisoner with a number of persons at Old Street Station—he did not give me time to pick him out, for he flew at me, and said "I know you; you have been to my house twice before, and I will make it hot for you"—he is the man; I wish I was as sure of having a thousand pounds.

By the COURT. He did not speak to me in the public-house, nor I to him—he only just asked me what I would have—I went there to identify him—he was in his shirt-sleeves—two men stood there, and he made the remark "This is bad weather for cabbies"—I do not know whether the two men were cabmen—he afterwards said "We have not heard of any silk robberies lately"—it was in consequence of instructions that I said nothing.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. I went back and asked the landlady if the young man had been back who went in my cab—she did not say "What man?" nor did I say "That dark young man"—I took the goods to the station the same day—I told the inspector that a respectably dressed young man engaged my cab—I did not say what kind of hat he wore, or whether he had whiskers; I said that he had a light moustache—I have not been paid anything to come here, nor have I been promised anything in case of a conviction—I shall take all I can get—you owe me 14s. for the cab—you came into your bar in your shirt sleeves, and then went and put your coat on and walked out with the two men, and left me in the bar by myself—I waited some considerable time, and then went away.

Re-examined. I took the silk to the station the same night, and then in consequence of instructions took it home, and took it to the station again next day.

WILLIAM EVANS . I am foreman to Messrs. Sutton, at the receiving office, Golden Lane—on Thursday, 25th January, as near 11 a.m. as possible, I saw the prisoner get out of a four-wheeled cab, which I now know to be Yendall's—he shut the door of the cab, and went into the yard—I told the cabman to move on a step to allow one of our vans to come into the gateway—the prisoner came out, and I asked him if he came with the cab—he did not answer me—he came close, and I asked him again—he said "No, why do you ask me that question?"—I said "I beg your pardon if I have made a mistake," and walked out—he turned round and looked at me, and disappeared rather sharply—I knew he was the man who got out of the cab—the cab remained there, and I saw the two packages—I have no doubt whatever that the prisoner is the man—early in March, by the direction of the police, I went to a public-house in Hackney Road, and when I got inside I recognised the prisoner—I asked for drink, but I had no conversation with anybody—about a week afterwards I picked out the prisoner at the station from several others.

Cross-examined. I swore at the police-court that it was 11.30 or 11.45, but I did not think the time was of such importance—the last time I was

here found I had made a mistake in the time—the watchman at our gate was with me, and he was discharged from our service just at the same time—I asked him what time it was, and he said 10.30—he knew the time he left—he is not here—I know Mr. Winter—I did not say to him that you must be the man because the police and the cabman said so, nor that you must be the man, because when I went in you stared at me, and because when I asked for the special standard you sent it by the barmaid—I did not say that I fancied you had a darker moustache; I did not say not say dark—I said that you were sharp featured.

Re-examined. Before the Magistrate I fixed the time, from the time the watchman came on duty, but I subsequently found it was 10.30—a few days afterwards I gave Sergeant Crawley a description of the man I had seen in the yard, and he took it down.

FRANK BAYS (police sergeant G). On 12th March, about 2 o'clock, I went to the Cock and Castle, Hackney Road, with three other officers, and saw the prisoner—I told him I wanted to speak to him—he said "Go up-stairs"—I said "You must come, with me"—he did so—I said "You know me, Hay; I am a sergeant of police, and am going to take you in custody for receiving a quantity of silk front the Great Eastern Railway"—he said "I have not had any silk for a long time, neither would I have any; I don't know anything about the silk you are speaking of"—I took him to Old Street Station, and in answer to the charge he said "I will bet a fiver I get out of it. (A label was here produced directed to G. Hay, Coach and Horses.7, well street, coventry)—there were two labels, one directed to the Coach and Horses, and the other to the Waggon and Horses—I saw the prisoner's brother here last session; his name is George Hay.

MARY ANN KILLEEN . I am the wife of Thomas Killeen, and live with my father-in-law, who keeps the Waggon and Horses, 7, Well Street, Coventry—I know George Hay, saw him in the street here this morning. (George Hay was here called but did not answer. On a Saturday towards the end of January this year George Hay came to the house, and I think he stayed till the following Wednesday—I am not certain of the day, but his wife came down about 9.25 p.m., and they went away together—they were too late for one train and came back—I went to bed but they left some time after 12—Hay had not mentioned that he was going before his wife came down.

THOMAS RANDALL (Detective G). I produce the silk—I received it from Yendall.

The prisoner called the following witnesses:——FIELD (Police Inspector). I produce the occurrence book, not the charge book—if a man brought in a load of silk it would not be put down in the charge book unless it was stolen—it was entered in the occurrence book which I produced on the last occasion—there is an entry in the occurrence book, but your description is not given—a description was sent round in the Police Information of a dark man with a dark moustache, but that was obtained from a woman.

Cross-examined. When the silk was brought in it was not known to whom it belonged, and there was no charge—I understood that the description in the Police Information was that of the man who took the lodging at the haberdasher's shop and not of the man who was in the cab.

THOMAS RANDALL (Re-examined). I gave the description which I got from Mrs. Townley, of the man who took the rooms—the description was not from the cabman—I do not know a Boot called 98G, bat it is the G Division.

RICHARD CRAWLEY (Examined by MR. FULTON). I am chief inspector of the Great-Eastern Railway—on 6th March I received a description from Evans of the man he says he saw in Sutton's Yard, and took it down in writing at the time in this book. (MR. FRITH declined to put the book in evidence).

MART ANN TOWNLEY . I keep a haberdasher's shop at 199, Lever Street—I had a card in my window, and about nine days before January 25th I let a room to a young man at half-a-crown a week—he gave the name of Forty, and said that he was going to get married—he brought a bed, and said that he would bring chairs and tables next week—on 25th January he came in a cab, came into the shop, borrowed some green string, and went into his room—the prisoner is nothing like him—there is a vast difference between them—he was a very dark man with dark bushy whiskers—that was the man who came and went away in cab—the cabman came back three hours after he took my lodger away and asked me if the young man had been back—I said "What young man?" he said "That dark young man. I took away with the two canvas bags who came out of your shop"—the police asked me to describe him, and I said that he was a dark man, taller and stouter than the prisoner, and with dark bushy whiskers, and the cabman said that he was a dark man with dark bushy whiskers—I went with the police to the prisoner's house—they said that they were going to identify my lodger, and that they knew where the man was, because the cabman had identified him—they gave me a half-crown—when I came out I said that there was such a great difference between the prisoner and my lodger that if the cabman said he was the man he either had no eyes or he saw double—two days afterwards the police took me to the City to see another man—he was a great big dark man with bushy whiskers—he was not the man either—the prisoner told me that he knew I was speaking the truth, and that the right man was in the country—that is the man (Pointing to a constable)—I never saw the prisoner in my life till the police entered his house—I have lived in first-class families, and my character will bear the strictest investigation, five years with a physician and three years with a lady, and I married from there.

Cross-examined. The man took my room on a Tuesday and paid half-a-crown rent in advance—he brought a bed and a tick—Inspector Crawley came between January and March—I did not tell him that about 7 o'clock the same evening the dark man drove up in a pony cart and stopped at my shop, having another man with him—if any statement of that kind is made it is false—they asked me if I could identify the cabman, and I said "No"—I did not tell Inspector Crawley a word about the second man; this is the first time I have heard that there was a second man—I did not say that it was not the lodger, but the second man who came to take away the bed—it is all untrue—the man with the bag came out at the side door, not through the shop—I was in the shop, I was not looking out at the window—there were not two men—this is the first time I have been asked about a second man.

CHARLES WILLIAM WINTER . I am a chemist and druggist, of Bethnal

Green Road, and Registrar of Births and Deaths for one district—I recollect January 25th, as it was the adjourned meeting of the tramway movement, which I took a great interest in—this (produced)is a bill of it—I first saw the prisoner on that day at 10 a.m.—he came in complaining about there being no bills in Brick Lane Mr. Muddle and Mr. Whitton were there—he did not remain above five minutes—Mr. Muddle went with him—I saw the prisoner again at 3 or 4 minutes past 11 o'clock on the steps of the Vestry Hall—I closed my place at 11 o'clock and went straight there, 250 or 300 yards—he promised to meet me there to let me know who he called on, and he never left me till 2 o'clock—the meeting adjourned at 1.30—the room was not full at first, but about 11.45 there was not standing room—I went to a public-house with Evans and Higgins, and Evans said "When I was taken down there I knew he was the man after I had had two glasses of ale. I asked for a 'Special;' he looked at me and I looked at him. He did not treat me as a gentleman, he never came across the bar to serve me; he left it to the barmaid. When I got the 'Special' I pretended to be reading, and he was still looking at me as I was looking at him, and then I knew he was the man." I said 'Who was it gave the description of the man at the station?' He said 'I and the cabman.' I said 'How is it this man is a light man?' He said 'When I was taken down there I expected to see a dark man'—that conversation was on May 8th—he also said since the committal "I find I have made a mistake in the time, and that it was impossible for the man to be there at the time you said."

Cross-examined. It could not have been 9.45 when I saw him first. (the witness had stated on the former trial that it might have been 9.45.) He was there about 10 o'clock—the chair was taken at 5, 6, or 7 minutes past 11 o'clock; I am sure it was not 11.30—I read in the standard that Hay was in custody, and I believe it was on the night that he was committed—he did not ask me to appear before the Magistrate and speak to the facts which I have spoken to to-day—I walked yesterday from my place to Lever Street, St. Luke's, and I cannot walk there under 40 minutes, going the course which it is said that the prisoner went—he went down Brick Lane to circulate the bills—it might take 10 minutes in a Hansom's cab with the horse galloping and on a very superior night, to go from Sutton's to the Vestry Hall—I have not done it in a Hansom's cab, but I say it is impossible—Thomas did not say on the last occasion that the chair was taken at 11.30—the business commenced about 11.30, because these was so much jangling about the matter coming on—only about 40 persons were inside when I arrived—I did not see the prisoner first inside the hall after the business had commenced; he was waiting on the step—the first time I saw him was in 1867, and I have known him ever since—this bill is the printer's copy, off his file—this happened on the Wednesday before Good Friday, because I gave the bill from the printer to the prisoner's brother, and the prisoner saw it the following day, Thursday, and expressed a wish to see me. and I said "It is Good Friday, there is no admission; go on Saturday if you can"—I saw the prisoner's brother George to-day; he was going away from the Court.

by the prisoner. I could not go with you to the meeting because I am Registrar of births and deaths, and could not get out till 11 o'clock—I was anxiously awaiting the hour of 11, and then I retired.

HENRY MUDDLE . I was a' licensed victualler; I am doing nothing now

—on 25th January about 10 o'clock as near as I can tell, I met the prisoner at Mr. Winter's and got some bills from him—we went down Bethnal Green Road—he delivered them on one side and I on the other—I left him, and afterwards went to the meeting—I did not see him there, but I saw him at 1 o'clock—I come here voluntarily.

Cross-examined. I was with him from 10 to 11 distributing bills—I last had a licensed house fourteen months ago, the Ship in Baker Street, Brick Lane, and gave it up because it was not paying—a large quantity of stolen boots were not found there—since that I have had a grocer's and fishmonger's shop in Hackney Road for six months,—I heard of some stolen boots two or three years ago; they were never found—they were shown at four or five houses, and at the Ship, and I had to go before the police and give evidence—I heard the silk talked about several days afterwards, and read about it—I saw a day or two afterwards that Hay was to be brought up—I did not notice the date, and what reason had I to inquire,?—I have known him four or five years—I did not know that it was the day he was with me till near the trial—I never went to the police-court—he never asked me to come and depose that I was with him—he has never asked me—Sergeant Randall first informed me of it—I did not know Hay's solicitor till the day of the trial, and he did not know what I was going to prove—some one came to my place about two days before, and asked me what I knew, and I told him—I did not say "What a pity he did not ask me that before, because I could have proved it at the police-court, and he would have got away all right;" I should have gone if I had known it on the very day.

GEORGE WHITROW . I am a hair-dresser—on 25th January I was attacked with gout, and went to Mr. Winter's shop at 10 o'clock—it was not a quarter to 10; I looked at the clock because I knew Mr. Winter had some registry cases, and I wished to get over before he was busy.

ALFRED WITHERINK . I am a boot and shoe manufacturer—I have two shops—on January 25th, at 10.30 or 10.45, the prisoner called at my shop and gave me a bill.

Cross-examined. I said last time that it was 10.30 as near as I could recollect, but I have asked my shopman since—my shop is 50 or 60 yards from Mr. Winter's, or 500 yards—I mean 500; I made a mistake—it is on the way to Shepherdess Walk one way—it would take a person about half-an-hour to go from Mr. Winter's to Shepherdess Walk—I have often been there.

QUINTUS KINGSTON . I am a butcher—on 25th January, about 10.45, the prisoner called at my shop and gave me a bill and asked me to go to the meeting—there was only quarter of an hour to spare.

Cross-examined. I was subpoenaed on the last trial, but not called—I did not go to the police-court—there were two meetings of the tramway company; one in the evening and one in the morning—I was asked to give evidence as soon as the prisoner was given in charge—I cannot exactly say the day; I do not mean at the police-court; it was after he was committed for trial—I did not see it in a newspaper—the prisoner sent Mr. Winter to me to say that he gave me the bill in Brick Lane; he did not mention the time, but I remember it was a quarter to 11 because he said "There is only a quarter of an hour to spare"—no one was with

him—he said would I come up, there was likely to be a blarney—I did not see Muddle distributing bills on the other side of the way.

MR. STEADMAN. I am a gas-engineer—I remember January 25th by the opposition to the tramway—I saw the prisoner at the Town Hall that day about 11.15.

Cross-examined. The chair was taken at 11 o'clock I believe, but it had been taken when I arrived.

RICHARD THOMAS . I am a chemist, of 406, Bethnal Green Road—on January 25th, at a quarter-past 11, I saw the prisoner at this meeting—he left at 1.30—he was introduced to me that day.

Cross-examined. The meeting began at 11.30, but there was a deal of pro and con before it began—I first saw the prisoner coming upstain with Winter at 11.15.

MR. HIGGINS. I am a vaccination officer, of Englefield Road—the prisoner is a stranger to me—I know Mr. Winter—on a Wednesday evening I received from Winter a note apprising me that one of my cases had moved and had died unvaccinated—I met him, and a gentleman connected with Carter Paterson's came and shook hands with him—we went to a public-house, and Winter espoused the prisoner's cause, and said that he was certain he was not guilty, as he was here, there, and everywhere—the gentleman said that he expected to see a dark man, and Mr. Winter brought out a likeness and said he was as white as possible; he was white in comparison—he did not say he knew the man, as when he looked at him the man looked at him—I think it was the converse, that when he looked at the prisoner he would not look at him, and he seemed to think that the prisoner ought to have come and waited on him and not the barmaid.

ALFRED CRADDOCK . I am a publican—on the day the prisoner was committed for trial, Sergeant Crawley said to me that the detective on the job knew he was not the man, but they intended to keep him, to find out the right party—that was at the Carpenter's Arms, opposite the station.

Cross-examined. I am the prisoner's brother-in-law—I have not been examined before—this conversation was on the day he was committed—I heard he was in custody on 12th March, and charged with receiving stolen cloth—I did not mention it to his brother George—I saw George outside the Court to-day—I don't know where he has gone to—I saw the prisoner in the House of Detention before he was committed for trial—it is no use cross-examining me, because I know nothing; I appeal to your Lordship—the prisoner said that he was innocent—he was very anxious to get out—it might be four or five days after he was committed for trial that I heard that Muddle could prove that he was with him at the very time—I was very pleased when I heard that, and went and saw him, and offered to be bail for him—he spoke about the witnesses who were with him that day, but whether that was before or after he was committed I can't recollect—I know that none of them were called before the Magistrate—I will swear that Crawley said what I have stated—that is the officer. (POINTING TO CRAWLEY)—I do not know whether he knew that I was his brother-in-law, but it was after I had offered myself as bail—I was not refused, I should have been accepted if I had paid the money into Court—I told the Magistrate that I was the prisoner's brother-in-law.

Witnesses in Reply.

RICHARD CRAWLEY (Re-examined).I was at the police-court when the prisoner was committed for trial—Craddock was there each day with several others who I see here—he stated that he was the prisoner's brother-in-law—it is not true that I said "The detectives on the job know he is not the man, but they intend to keep him to pick out the right party," either there or elsewhere—he treated me to a cigar and a glass of drink, and said that the police had behaved very well, and he wished his brother-in-law had never returned from the Cape.

WILLIAM ROBINSON (Police Superintendent, G.E.R.). Since the prisoner was committed for trial I went to Sutton's parcel place, got a cab, waited on the pavement till 10 o'clock, and then drove at the ordinary pace to Bethnal Green Vestry Hall—I arrived there two or three seconds under 10 minutes, and we had several ordinary morning stoppages.

The prisoner, in his defence, stated that he had been a solicitor's clerk, and had been in the habit of attending trials and instructing counsel, and that he had frequently exposed the infamous proceedings of the police in putting innocent men into prison; that in this way he, had offended sergeant Wright, and was in consequence obliged to go abroad, and when he returned he again met Wright, and told him that he had taken a public-house, and gave him his card, and therefore the police knew where to find him. He stated that the evidence as to his saying, "Rough weather for cabbies," and "Any more silk robberies?" was false, and was only an attempt to hatch a case, and complained that the police having the description of a dark man had taken him, a fair man. He contended that his witnesses had established his innocence, and stated that it was by the advice of Mr. Frith that he did not call them before the Magistrate.

GUILTY* on the Second Count. Seven Years' Penal Servitude.

28th May 1883
Reference Numbert18830528-578
VerdictsGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentencesNo Punishment > sentence respited

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578. OLIVER OWEN (18) PLEADED GUILTY to three indictments for feloniously forging and uttering receipts for 1l. 10s., 5l., and 1s. 10d., and also to stealing two pieces of paper.— judgment respited . And

28th May 1883
Reference Numbert18830528-579
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceNo Punishment > sentence respited

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579. HENRY GRAY to unlawfully converting to his own use certain bonds entrusted to him as a broker, for safe custody. He received an excellent character, and Mr. Langley, of Walworth, stated that he was suffering from three separate diseases, one of which was consumption, and that hard labour would have a very injurious effect upon him.— [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.] Judgment respited .

THIRD COURT.—Tuesday, May 29th, 1883.

before Mr. Common Serjeant.

28th May 1883
Reference Numbert18830528-580
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty; Not Guilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

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580. ELIZABETH BROWN (19) and ANN WHITE (58) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin, to which


THOMAS EVANS . I live at the Pottery Arms beerhouse, kept by my father—about 4.30 in the afternoon of 9th May I was at the Duke of Cambridge public-house in Old Brentford—the prisoners came in—White called for a pint of beer—Brown said half a pint would do because she did not want any—White said "Oh, have a pint; what you can't drink I can"—White put down a shilling—I gave them a sixpence and four coppers change, and they went away and left half the beer—I

afterwards saw Mr. Finall, the landlord, look at the coin and mark it, and I recognise it by that mark—this (produced) is it.

Cross-examined by brown. You did not give the shilling; you picked up the change.

JESSE HICKMORE (Policeman T 87). I have seen Mr. Finall this morning—he is very ill, and quite incapable of coming out of doors—he is a very old man—he was at the police-court, and the prisoners had an opportunity of cross-examining him—they did not do so.

The deposition of CHARLES FINALL was read as follows. "I am landlord of the Duke of Cambridge, Old Brentford. The two prisoners came into my house about 4.30 on the 9th inst.: they called for some beer. White gave me 1s., I put it in my pocket where I had no other money. I gave White 10d. change. I marked the shilling with ink. I am certain it is the shilling produced."

ALFRED THOMAS HENDERSON . I am the landlord of the Rising Sun beerhouse, High Street, Old Brentford—on 9th May I was in my bar; the two prisoners came in together, and White called for a pint of beer, which would come to 2d.—one of them put down a shilling; I gave a sixpence and 4d. change, which White picked up—they did not drink half a quartern, and went out; whatever was drunk they shared—they talked together in the bar—I laid the shilling on the till, and did not put it with the other money—within a second or so after they had gone I found it was bad, and went after them and detained White; Brown had gone a short distance—I brought White back, sent for a constable, and he took her to the station—she gave me the 10d. back and some other money besides, altogether 3s. or 4s.—I gave that up at the police-station, and also the bad shilling, which I had marked; this is it (produced.)

Cross-examined by Brown. I do not know which of you gave me the shilling—White picked up the change—when I came after you you were standing together talking.

JESSE HICKMORE (Re-examined). About 5 on the evening of 9th May I was on duty in High Street, Old Brentfotd, and from information received I went in search of Brown to the back of Mr. Carty's house; he is a grocer in High Street, nearly 100 yards from the Rising Sun—I found her in the water-closet; the door was fastened on the inside—I knocked, nobody answered; I forced it open; she was standing up—I said "What are you doing here?" she said "It is all right"—I said "I want you to go with me to the Rising Sun, where you have passed a bad shilling;" she said "No, I have good money, here it is"—she had a sixpence and some coppers—I took her to the Rising Sun—the landlord in her and White's presence produced this shilling, and said "These women have given me this"—I took them both to the station—after the first charge was taken Mr. Finall came in, and in the prisoners' presence said "That is the woman that gave me the shilling," pointing to White, and he gave me the bad shilling—I have kept it, and produced it here to-day—they were taken to the cells; Brown said to White "Ann, don't cry, I will get you off; I will say I passed them;" they could not see me when that was said, I was between the cells and the charge-room—I went to Mr. Carty's and searched the water-closet, and found in the pan this purse (produced), containing eight shillings and 20 sixpences in silver and 3s. 3 1/4 d. in bronze loose—they were asked their addresses; they both said at the same time "We have no home."

ELIZA COX . I am female searcher at the. Brentford Station—I was there when the prisoners were brought in, and I searched them—I found nothing on White; on Brown I found a shilling, 1s. 1d. in bronze, and a sixpence; she had it in her hand—she said she had put some money down the closet—I said "Was it good money or bad?" she said "Good money"—she said "The person I was with is an entire stranger to me. I merely met her and asked her to take something to drink, and I am sorry that I have brought her into such trouble"—they were not together at this time.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . These two shillings are both bad, and from the same mould.

Brown, in a written defence, stated that on this day she had accidentally met her mother who asked her twice to come and drink with her, and that she did not see what her mother paid for the drink with; that when the man came after them, her mother gave her a purse and asked her to throw it away; that she, thinking it contained bad money, did so; and that at the station she was excited and her mother was crying, and she said that she would try to get her off, but that she was innocent.


WHITE PLEADED GUILTY* to a previous conviction for the same offence in November, 1881.— Eighteen Months' Hard labour.

28th May 1883
Reference Numbert18830528-581
VerdictGuilty > unknown; Guilty > with recommendation
SentenceMiscellaneous > sureties; Imprisonment > hard labour; Imprisonment > hard labour; Imprisonment > penal servitude

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581. EVALINE STREET (19), ALBERT HOWARD (21), PHILIP GARCIA (29), and ELIZABETH KING (18) , Unlawfully having in their possession counterfeit coins, with intent to utter them.

MESSRS. CRAUFURD and LLOYD Prosecuted; MR. HEWICK defended Garcia, and MR. SMYTHIES defended Howard.

CHARLES THOMAS SOLE . I assist my father, who keeps a milk and batter shop in Weavers' Arms Road, Back church Lane—on 7th April Garcia came in and asked for some milk and butter, which came to 5d., and gave me a bad half-crown in payment—I said "This is a beauty;" he said "I must have taken it from where I am employed"—he paid me in good money—next morning, Sunday, King came in for some milk and butter—she opened her purse, and I said "You have a bad half-crown there;" she said "Yes, a young man gave it to me, I will give it to him back on the Monday"—she only had this coin and some coppers with which she paid me in her purse—she did not try to pass the half-crown.

Cross-examined by MR. HEWICK. Garcia came in about 6.30 in the evening—directly I pointed it out I was paid in good money—I gave him back the bad half-crown.

Cross-examined by King. You did not say "Look what I have taken from a young man."

By the COURT. I could see into her purse because the place where I stand is three feet higher than where the customers stand.

KARL CONRAD SCHUTZ . I keep the Dog and Truck beerhouse, 72, Backchurch Lane, St. George's-in-the-East—on Saturday, 7th April, as near as I can recollect, Garcia came in alone and asked for a pint of ale, which came to 2d.; I served him—he tendered in payment a half-crown which I afterwards found was bad—I put it in the till; there were no other hall-crowns there—he took the beer home—I kept the half-crown a few days because I suspected the house, and eventually gave it to

Inspector Thresher; this (produced) is it—two days after, about the 9th King came in alone for a pint of ale; I served her; she tendered a back two-shilling piece in payment—I noticed it was bad at the time—I gave her change for certain reasons—she had been in the shop several times before—I could not say I had taken bad money from her before—this (produced) is the bad two-shilling piece King brought me—I suspected the house 32, Everard Street, which I had seen the prisoners come out of several times a day—the next time any counterfeit coin was passed to me was on the Sunday after 9th April or the Sunday after that—King came to my place in the forenoon; my missis opened the door—I was in the clubroom repairing a beerpot, and heard my missis say the shilling was bad, and she called my attention to a shilling—I examined it and found it was bad—I said to King "Take it away, don't come with any more bad money, you know it is bad;" she made no observation, but went away and came with 2d. good money and took the tobacco—on the day they were arrested or the day before, I forget the date, it was in April, Street came with a bad half-crown and asked the missis for change—I was in the back room, and heard what was said—my missis said it was bad, and Street went away with it.

Cross-examined by MR. HEWICK. I have been at the Dog and Truck for three years—I do not know how long Garcia has lived close to me; I know he has been there nine months—I do not know he has been sixteen years in the neighbourhood—I did not notice the coin was bad when he gave it me; he had been constantly in my place—I put the coin in the till, and then took it out and put it in a piece of paper, and laid it on one side upstairs, and gave it to the police a good many days afterwards—he came into my house between the time he gave me the coin and the time I gave it to the police—I said nothing to him about it—I think it was the 7th; I am not quite sure about the day.

Re-examined, I warned my neighbours about Garcia—he did not try to pass bad money after that half-crown.

JOHN GILES . I was the manager of the Brewers' Arms in Backchurch Lane when Garcia came in on the 13th in the afternoon—he asked for a pint of four-ale in a jug, and tendered 1s. in payment—I found it to be bad; put it in my teeth before his face and bent it—I gave it to him back, and said "It is a bad one"—he said he had taken it from his master in payment of some work, and "I will leave the jug"—he went home and got 2d.—I detained the jug while he went.

Cross-examined by MR. HEWICK. I have known him ever since I have been in the house coming in and out—I have heard he lived not very far off in Everard Street—I don't know the house—I gave him the 1s. back—I do not produce it now—I bit it and bent it, and made a good mark on it—he went home and fetched good money—he did not take money out of his pocket, and I concluded he had no more on him—he was away just about long enough to go home.

WILLIAM BECKER . I am a barber's assistant at 66, Backchurch Lane—on 13th April Garcia came in—I shaved him for 1d.—he tendered a half-crown in payment—I sounded it; it gave a dull sound—I told him it was bad; it was no good—he said it might be cracked—I told him it did not look like cracked, and said "I will show it to the governor"—he took it, and returned me a 1d.—he had been shaved there many a time before.

Cross-examined by MR. HEWICK. I knew him pretty well—this was between 2 and 3 in the afternoon—he has been shaved there at all hours of the day—I looked at it, and did not see any crack on it—I gave it to him back—it is not here to-day.

PAULINE COOK . I am the wife of Henry Cook, a baker at 80, Back-church Lane—on 18th April Street came in for a half-quartern loaf, price 3d.—she gave me a half-crown; I told her it was bad, and asked her where she got it from; she said "A friend of mine gave it to me"—I took the bread back, and bent the half-crown in the tester, and save it to her back—she did not tender any other money for the bread—about six weeks before, between 10 and 11, she had come for a half-quartern loaf, and given me a 1s., which I discovered to be bad about ten minutes after she had left—I bent that in the tester and threw it away.

ESTHER TAYLOR . I am an ironer, of 4, Boyd Street, St. George's-in-the-East—that is the street before you come to Everard Street, and not many yards from it—on 14th April Esther Garcia came to me—I had done some ironing for her son, and she owed me 3d.—she gave me a half-crown—I went over to the baker's shop for change; the baker told me something, and I went back to her house, which is three doors from mine—King was there; in her hearing I said "Mrs. Garcia, this is a bad half-crown"—she said "Do you hear that?" speaking to King; King said "I have had a slice of bad luck to-day; he will say I have been boozing"—nobody had been mentioned—I said "What a bad job!"—King took up the coin, and gave me three penny-pieces out of her purse, and I then left.

Cross-examined by King. You said you must save it till he came back—I don't know who he was.

Cross-examined by MR. HEWICK. Mrs. Garcia came to my house first, and I took the bad half-crown back to her—Mrs. Garcia does not live with Garcia; she lives three doors from me in Boyd Street.

JOHN BAXTER . My master keeps a fish-shop at 19, Cable Street, and I serve in it—on 19th April last King came there about 9 in the morning, and asked for a 3d. Haddock, and put down a bad half-crown—I told her it was a bad one, and bent it, and returned it to her, and she gave me a good one there and then without leaving the shop—she said she took it from where she worked—Cable Street is about five minutes' walk from Everard Street.

ELIZA GROVE . I am the wife of William Grove, a greengrocer, at 17, Berners Street, St. George's-in-the-East, at the corner of Everard Street—on Saturday, 7th April, Street came in and asked for a quarter of coals and a bundle of wood, which came to 4d.—she gave me a two-shilling piece in payment—I gave her 1s. 6d. change, and she ran away, leaving the coals and wood and other 2d.—I called after her; she did not come back—I knew where she lived, and took the coals and wood and 2d. to 32, Everard Street—I took the 2s. upstairs, and put it in my purse by itself—I thought it looked rather new, but that it could not be bad coming from a person living so near—she has dealt with me before—she came again during the next week and offered me a two-shilling piece for coals—I had not then discovered the first one was bad—I sold her seven farthings' worth of coals, and gave her the change, and she went away with the coals—I put that florin with the other—I examined them on Saturday, the 14th when my husband took a bad 1s., and found

they were both bad, and gave them to Inspector Thresher—these are they (produced)—I gave Street into custody on the same day that I found it out, the 14th.

WILLIAM GROVE . On Friday, 20th April, Street came to my shop, asked for some coals, which came to seven farthings, and tendered a shilling—I gave her the change—I put the shilling in my pocket—on Saturday, 21st, I took the money out of my pocket and found a bad shilling; there were other shillings there—on that day Street came in between 3 and 4 o'clock, and asked for seven farthings'-worth of coals, and put down a shilling—I threw it on the ground, picked it up, went into the back room, and tried it, and asked her where she got it from—she said 32, Everard Street—I went with it to the George public-house, and showed it to Mr. Cooper, the landlord, who had previously spoken to me—Street went away and came back again with Garcia—Street had 2d., and Garcia said "Give me the shilling back, here is the 2d."—I showed him the shilling and said I would not part with it—later it the afternoon I was in the baker's shop, showing it to Mr. Schutz, when Garcia and Howard came in, and both of them said "Let us have a look at it"—I showed it to them and said "No, I don't part"—I gave the two coins to Inspector Thresher—these (produced) are they.

By the COURT. The one in my pocket was among a lot of good ones—I had an idea it was wrong when I put it in.

Cross-examined by MR. HEWICK. Gracia did not give me any money on the 21st—he did not say when he came into my shop with Street "Let us have a look at it," he wanted it back, and offered me 2d. and I would not take it—I have seen Gracia pass by; he has not been a customer; his wife has been there—I have heard since he is married—Everard Street is at the corner, close by.

Cross-examined by MR. SMYTHIES. I did not see Howard on the first occasion—I recognise him because he came up when I was speaking to a man outside the George IV.—I had not seen him before that I am aware of.

JAMES COOPER . I keep the George IV., Berners Street, three doors from Mr. Grove's shop, and close to Everard Street—on Friday, 13th April, Street came into my house—she was not a customer—she asked for a pot of four-ale in a jug; it came to 4d.—my wife served her; I cautioned my wife—I was near enough to see and was watching—my wife handed her the ale, Street gave her a bad shilling, my wife handed it to me, I tried it, and saw it was bad—I asked her where she lived—she said 33, Everard Street—Street went and fetched a good sixpence and paid for the ale—she made no remark—I kept the coin and handed it afterwards to Thresher—this is it (produced)—on the following day, Saturday, I and Grove went to 32, Everard Street, and saw Street and Garcia—I did not see any of the other prisoners there.

Cross-examined by MR. HEWICK. Garcia keeps the house—I don't know if he is married.

MONTAGU DOLBY . I keep the Cherry Tree public-house in Backchurch Lane—on 20th April Garcia and Howard came to my house together and called for a pint of mild and bitter, and tendered me a shilling—I found it was bad, broke it in my teeth into two pieces, chucked the pieces on the counter, and Howard picked them up—Howard paid for the liquor with 3d. good money—they are occasional customers.

Cross-examined by MR. HEWICK. Howard asked for the liquor and paid for it.

By the COURT. Garcia said "I am surprised; I wonder where we have got it from."

Cross-examined by MR. SMYTHIES. As soon as Howard saw the coin was broken he gave me good money for it—they both drank the beer.

GEORGE MORRIS . I keep the Lord Nelson beershop, at the corner of Fair clough Street, about 100 yards from the last witness's, and two or three minutes' walk from Everard Street—on 21st April Street came in for some beer in a jug—I served her, she offered half-a-crown in payment; I put it in the till where there were no other half-crowns; I gave her change and she left with the beer—about an hour after Thresher came in, and in consequence of what he said I looked in the till and found this half-crown was bad—I gave it to Thresher—this (produced) is it—I don't recollect seeing Street before that day.

WILLIAM WAGNEY (Policeman H 165). Street was given into my custody on 21st April by Mrs. Grove—I told her the charge—Mrs. Grove said "She has been passing a bid two-shilling piece"—Street said she did not know the money was bad.

GEOBGE FOSTER (Sergeant E). On 21st April I went with Fordham and Thresher to 32, Everard Street, in consequence of inquiries I had made, about 9.30 in the evening—I saw Howard and Garcia's wife in the front room downstairs—I said to Howard "Is Mr. Garcia in?"—he said "He has just gone out; he will be back again shortly"—I was in plain clothes—I and the other officers sat down and waited till about 11 o'clock—Howard and Garcia's wife remained in the room all the time—I then said "There has been a quantity of bad money passed by persons coming from this house; the girl Street is in custody, and we are going to search"—one of us, I think Thresher, said "Which is the girl Street's room?"—Howard said "This is it"—it was a back room, close to where we were sitting; and Mrs. Garcia also said that was the girl's room—I and Thresher went in and commenced to search; we had been in a short time when Howard passed from the front room to the back, and was going through into the yard—I stopped him and asked him where he was going; he said the yard; I said "Not until I have searched you"—I took him into the front room, searched him, and found two florins and seven sixpences, and no bad money—he then went into the back yard, I went with him; as he got to the closet door he said "You are right, don't search any more; I am working for Mr. Abberline and Sergeant Thick"—I said "What do you mean?" he said "It is all right, don't search any more till he comes home, or you will lose him"—Abberline is an inspector of police—I went back and informed Thresher of what he said, and we waited—at about 12 o'clock at night Garcia came in—I said "We are police-officers; there has been a quantity of bad money passed by persons coming from this house; we are going to search, have you any here?"—he said "Not as I know of"—I then went into the back room where I had previously been; Howard passed by me and whispered loudly "In the box in the room upstairs"—I then went back to the front room, where Garcia was, and requested him to accompany me upstairs with Thresher—in the room upstairs I found an ordinary clothes box, which was locked, the room otherwise being empty—I said to Garcia "Whose box is this?"—he said "I don't know, I never saw

it before"—he called out to his wife "Whose box is this?"—she answered "It is the young man's, he brought it here this afternoon with his brother"—there was only Howard downstairs with her—I then asked for the key of the box; it not being forthcoming, I opened it with one of my own keys, a common box key—in the box I found this paper bag, two pawn-tickets, one with the name of Howard, 3, Sherwood Place, Bethnal Green, which Howard gave as his address, this small box, and the paper parcel tied up with this piece of flacking. (The various articles were produced.) I took the little box downstairs and asked Howard for the key—he felt in his pockets and said "I have not got it"—there were counterfeit florins and 176 counterfeit shillings in the box—I said to Howard "How do you account for these? this was in the box in the room upstairs"—he said "It was not in when I brought it; it has been put in there since"—I said "You will both have to accompany me to the station"—Howard put his hand on Garcia's shoulder and said "Take him, he is the man you want; if I am convicted so shall he be"—Foraham took Howard, and Thresher took Garcia—I walked alongside of Howard going to the station—he turned to me and said "Go to the I mother's house in Boyd Street, or they will shift the traps"—I went, and not knowing the number kept observation—I saw Garcia's wife go to Boyd Street and knock at the door of Garcia's mother's house, and I followed her in and searched the house but found nothing—Garcia's mother and father, a soldier, and two prostitutes and others were in the house—I told her what I came for and that her son was in custody—on the 22nd I went to Boyd Street again and took Esther Garcia into custody and charged her—she was afterwards discharged—I was informed Howard was a basket maker.

Cross-examined by MR. HEWICK. There were two rooms downstairs and one up—a woman was represented as Garcia's wife—he denied knowledge of the box—one room was occupied by Street and occasionally by Howard. I believe—I found Mrs. Garcia lying, on the bed in the front room—I know Garcia has worked for Mr. Costa—I found nothing on him.

Cross-examined by MR. SYMTHIES. We went to the house in consequence of inquiries made by Thresher—Street being given into custody upset our plans—I had not obtained information from Thick—I had only received information from persons in the neighbourhood—when I asked Howard if Garcia was in, he showed no hesitation; he answered quite straight-forwardly—I searched Howard before he went into the yard and found no bad money on him, but good money—when the remark was made about the box, Garcia was in the front room, Street at the police-station, and King had not come in—I left Street, Howard, and Garcia in the custody of Fordham and Thresher while I went upstairs and found the box—the box had a common lock—it was not a skeleton key I used—I asked Howard if he had a key because I understood it was his box—I had only searched him for money before—Howard, Mrs. Garcia, I, and Thresher all waited together till Garcia came in in the front room, which opens directly on the street, down one step—Garcia could not have gone upstairs and come down without our knowing it—I am sure about Howard's expression "If I am to be convicted he shall be convicted too"—I told the clerk at the police-court I had omitted that from my evidence in consequence of the Magistrate's interruption, and it was put at the end—I said to Howard "Here are two pawntickets with your name on"—I don't remember that he made any reply.

Re-examined. Garcia is a greengrocer—I have not seen Mr. Costa, in whose employ he was here—I believe it is some time back since he was employed by him.

BENJAMIN FORDHAM . I was with Foster and Thresher when they visited this house in Everard Street—I remained downstairs when Foster and Thresher went up—I heard Foster call out "Whose box is this?"—Howard said in answer to that "It is my box; I and my brother brought it here this afternoon"—I took Howard to the station—when Foster left us on the way to the station Howard said "I am getting this case up for Sergeant Thick; I shall want yon to send for him. I shall say nothing till I see him"—the pawn tickets were in the box when I took it there, but the money was not there then—I heard Foster's evidence; as far as I know it is correct.

Cross-examined by MR. SYMTHIES. All the questions I asked Howard were answered by him quite openly and fairly—Thick is a sergeant of my division—I had had no communication with him.

RICHARDTHRESHEE (Police Inspector). I went with Foster and Fordham to Everard Street—I searched Garcia and found nothing on him—when I first went into the house before Garcia came in I said to Howard "Do you live here?"—he said "No, I am waiting for a young woman who lives here; she is a friend of mine"—I said "Do you know where she is now?"—he said "No, I don't know, but I expect her shortly"—after waiting about an hour, and Garcia not having come, Foster told him Street was in custody—when Foster said "We will search the place," I pointed to the back room and said "Is this the room Street occupied?"—Howard and Mrs. Garcia both said "Yes, it is"—I took Garcia to the station—on the way he said "You need not fear, I shall not run away; I have nothing to fear"—next day I went to 82, Hanbury Street, where King was living—it is about a mile down Everard Street—I went to the second floor landing and called "King"—her mother first came out, and I said "Is Lizzie here?"—she said "No, she is not"—the prisoner came out of the back room and said "What is it?"—her mother said "I thought she had gone out; I did not know she was in"—I said "Are you Lizzie King?"—she said "Yes"—I said "I am a police-officer and I shall take you into custody for passing bad money"—she said "I have not passed any"—I said "We have apprehended several persons at 32, Everard Street; you lived there?"—she said "Yes, I did; who have you got?"—I said "Howard, Garcia, and Evaline Street"—she said "What, you have got Evaline? Oh, I am sorry; she was such an innocent little thing!"—on the way to the station she made a statement, which I wrote down at the station and read in the presence of all the prisoners, and King said "That is right"—she said "I know bad money was being passed, and that it was brought to the house at Everard Street by Howard. I have not passed any that I know of; if I have it has been done innocently. I changed money for Howard and gave him the change, but did not know it was bad. Last Wednesday night Howard said to me 'I can put you away if I like.' I asked him what he meant, and said 'If you do anything to me I know quite enough to put you away, and will do it, too;' but I did not think he meant anything"—I did not hear any of the prisoners make any observation at this time; Howard made a Statement afterwards—when Garcia was charged he said with regard to the half-crown to Mr. Schutz "I deny it;

it is an untruth. I admit I went into the Weavers' Arms and tendered a shilling, not knowing it was bad"—Howard said "I have nothing to say; what I have to say I will say to the Court"—when Esther Garcia was charged she said in the hearing of the prisoners "I was round at my son's, at 32, Everard Street, yesterday, when the prisoner gave me a shilling, which I afterwards paid to Mrs. Horan, who afterwards returned it to me, saying it was a bad one. Last Saturday week the prisoner King came into my house, took a half-crown out of her pocket, and said 'Mrs. Garcia, will you go round for the washing?' I went to 4, Boyd Street and paid the half-crown to Mrs. Taylor, who brought it back to me and said it was a bad one. King was there and said 'What! a bad one? I must keep it till he comes home or he will think I have been out boozing,' and she (King) gave Mrs. Taylor 3d."—when Mrs. Garcia said that Howard exclaimed "It is all very well for you, Mrs. Garcia, what you are saying, but before it is finished you soon will be proved guilty"—King said "What? that is false"—Street and Garcia gave their address as 32, Everard Street; Howard gave 3, Sherwood Place, Bethnal Green, about a mile and a half away—there was no bad money found on any of the prisoners except Mrs. Garcia and Howard—I was present when these 176 bad shillings and six half-crowns were found—I also produce two shillings from Mrs. Grove, two florins from Mrs. Grove, a half-crown and florin from Mr. Schutz, a shilling from Mr. Cooper, and a half-crown from Mr. Morris—I have another half-crown from Mr. Cooper, but he cannot say who passed it.

Cross-examined by MR. SYMTHIES. Howard answered all my questions at once—he gave his address—I went there and found it was his home.

WILLIAM THICK (Detective Sergeant H). On 16th April last I had a conversation with Howard in Bishopsgate Street—I knew him before—he said "Johnny, I can put you on to a gang of counterfeit coiners"—I said "Very well, meet me in the evening"—I asked him "Where do they live?"—he said "On the Seven Dials"—I said, "Very well, you meet me to-morrow evening at 11 o'clock at this same place; I will introduce you to our chief"—he had a drink and went away—I communicated with Inspector Abberline—I was there the following night at the place and time appointed, and waited till 12.30 or 12.45; he did not come—I did not see him again till he was in the dock at Leman Street Station.

Cross-examined by MR. SMTTHIES. Howard's father lives at 3, Sherwood Place, and is a basket-maker—Howard is supposed to be living with him.

FREDERICK ABBERLINE (Inspector). Thick made a verbal report to me—I did not see Howard at all—it is not a fact that he was working for me at all.

Cross-examined. I am an inspector of the same division as Thick—I heard of it from him and told him to keep the appointment—I gave no instructions whatever in this case, except to tell Thick to keep the appointment, and I would be at the Elder Street Station in case he met the man to bring him there to me, and I waited, but he did not come—I did not make a search after Howard—it is a common thing for people to say they will give you certain information, and they never turn up.

WILIIAM WEBSTER . Here are two counterfeit florins of 1872 from

the same mould-two counterfeit shillings of 1866 and 1873, one half-crown of 1819, and one shilling of 1877, passed by Street; then by King there is one florin of 1871; by Garcia there is a half-crown of 1836—of the coins found in Howard's box there are three half-crowns of 1819. all the same mould, the same as the one of Street's; two of 1817 and one of 1846; 176 shillings, 28 of 1865, 7 of 1866, and amongst those several from the same mould as the 1866 one of Street-there are 74 of 1871 72 of 1816, which do not bear on this case; 49 of 1873, several from the same mould as Street's 1873 one; 37 of 1877, several from the same mould as the one of Street's.

Cross-examined by MR. HEWICK. Garcia's half-crown is 1836—there is not one of that date among those found in the box.

Cross-examined by MR. SMYTHIES. A good shilling could be broken with the teeth.

Street in her defence stated that she had received the money from Howard to buy goods with, and that she did not know it was bad.

King asserted her innocence, and declared she did not know the money was bad.

GUILTY . The Jury recommended King to mercy.

INSPECTOR ABBERLINE stated that about 12 months ago King had given most important evidence in a housebreaking case. KINGDischarged on her own recognisances to come up for judgment when called on. STREET— Three Months' Hard Labour. GARCIA— Eighteen Months' Hard Labour.

HOWARD*— Five Years' Penal Servitude.

FOURTH COURT.—Tuesday, May 29th, 1888.

Before Robert Malcolm Kerr, Esq.

28th May 1883
Reference Numbert18830528-582
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

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589. ALFRED SIMMONS (23) , Feloniously wounding Joseph Kenns, with intent to do him some grievous bodily harm.


REUBEN STEVENS (Police Sergeant E 37). About 7.30 on the 5th May I was on duty at the Gaiety Theatre, and was fetched by Kenna to the pit entrance, where I saw the prisoner in the crowd—Kenna took him into custody, and handed him over to me, and I took him to the station, Kenna going after a man named Toller.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. You were inside the crowd close to the pit entrance—I did not in any way ill-use you on the way to the station—I had not tasted a drop of drink.

JOHN MAKTELL (Policeman E 59). I was called to the pit entrance of the Gaiety Theatre by Sergeant Stevens, and assisted him in taking Simmons to the station—when he was put into the dock Kenna was about to search him, when he drew a knife from his pocket and struck him on the mouth, and said "Take that, you b—"—I did not see him open the knife—he said "They do as they like with Irishmen in England; they are now hanging twelve men for two old b——s"—he returned the knife into his pocket—the wound on Kenna's lip bled.

Cross-examined. I did not see any one ill-use you or tear your clothes—the knife was shut when it was taken from you.

JOSEPH KENNA (Policeman E 354). I saw the prisoner at the time and place in question, in company with another man—I saw the prisoner put his hand into two persons' pockets—I took him into custody, and handed him over to Stevens—I took the other man into custody myself and they were both taken to the station—at the station, on the charge being taken, I went into the dock to search the prisoner, and he took his knife out of his pocket—I saw him open it, and he cut me in the mouth with it, and said "Take that"—he cut my lip right down—the wound went right through to the gum, and I lost a lot of blood—I did not touch him from the time I handed him over to Sergeant Stevens until I saw him in the dock—when he plunged his knife into me I was unable to do anything.

Cross-examined. When I first saw you I walked out of the court, and Went down the street and appeared not to see you—they were gentleman Whose pockets you tried to pick—I charged you with attempting to pick pockets—it is the custom to search prisoners when in the dock.

Re-examined. This is the knife (produced)—the blood spurted out at once.

RICHARD HASSARD . I am a surgeon, of 3, Southampton Street, Strand—I was called to the police-station about 8 o'clock, when I saw Kenna, who was suffering from an incised wound on, the left side of the upper lip—it ran from above downwards for a length of almost three-quarters of an inch towards the mouth—with the exception of the mucous membrane of the mouth it divided the substance of the lip, including the main artery, and bled profusely—the wound ran down towards the mouth for three-quarters of an inch again, and slit the lip to a depth of half an inch—I stitched it up and dressed it in the ordinary way—this knife would produce such a wound.

GUILTY **.— Eighteen Months' Hard Labour.

28th May 1883
Reference Numbert18830528-590
VerdictGuilty > with recommendation
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

Related Material

590. MARTHA ELLEN NEWTON (21) , Feloniously forging and uttering an order for payment of 20l., with intent to defraud.

MR.B. WISE Prosecuted; MR. GEOGHEGAN Defended.

WILLIAM GRAY . I live at Twickenham, and the prisoner was in my service as housemaid—she left on the 23rd April—I missed these cheques

from my desk on the 27th April—they are not in my handwriting; I produce one that is.

Cross-examined. I have in my service a cook, and a boy who occasionally comes in the house, but is generally employed in the garden—I also have two gardeners and outdoor servants—I keep my cheques in my desk, one hinge of which was defective—any one might go to it.

ABRAHAM VANDVAND . I am superintendent at Wright Brothers', George Street, Richmond, drapers and house furnishers—the prisoner came into our shop on the 27th April to buy some goods, and presented this cheque for 20l.—she bought 6l. worth—we sent across to the London and County Bank and got change, and paid the balance to the prisoner—it was returned marked "No authority to honour this signature"—Mrs. Gray is a customer of ours—the prisoner was in the habit of coming to our shop with Mrs. Gray's children, and we have cashed cheques for Mrs. Gray before—I have no doubt as to the prisoner—I believe this is not like the handwriting on the cheques we used to cash for Mrs. Gray—it did not strike me as strange that a servant should present a cheque for 20l.—Rosina Smith served her—we have over a hundred assistants: I walk about the shop—a man named Hughes brought me the cheque; he is not here—I said to the prisoner "Who is this cheque for?"—she said "Mrs. Gray, of Greville Lodge"—I looked at her and recognised her—I said "Mrs. Gray used not to live at Greville Lodge"—she said "No, she used to live at St. Stephen's, Ampthill Park Road"—I am sure of her identity—there is nothing remarkable in her appearance—we have some hundreds of customers in the shop during the day, and it is part of my duty to notice the people who come into the shop.

ROSINA SMITH . I am assistant to Messrs. Wright Brothers, Richmond—on the 27th April the prisoner came to our shop and bought-some articles, for which she paid in cash—I served her.

WILLIAM PECK (Police Inspector). I found the prisoner detained at the police-station shortly after 7 o'clock p.m. on 7th May—I showed her this cheque, and told her she would be charged with stealing it—shortly after I saw her doubling up a piece of paper—I said "What is this?" and seized her hand, and she said "That is the cheque I am charged with stealing, and that you have me for"—this cheque is not signed—she said "I was in and out of Wright's shop several times, but I never changed a cheque"—on the following morning, the 8th, on going to the police-court she said "What do you think I shall get?" they cannot do much to me for that, for I never changed the the cheque; I said "You are charged with forgery also"—to that she made no reply.

Cross-examined. She said, speaking of the cheque for 20l., "I must have lost it"—she did not say when I showed her the cheque that she saw her master's cheques lying about, and that out of curiosity she had filled them up, or that she had lost the cheque, and that somebody else must have found it.

ALFRED LEE (Policeman TR 31). I was with Inspector Peck at the police-station, Richmond, on the 7th May, when the prisoner was there—she called me aside and asked if I had seen Mr. Gray—I said yes, I had—she said the cheque she passed at Wright Brothers' she knew nothing about, but the one she gave to the inspector she filled op, and went into the shop with the intention of passing it, and after she felt afraid to do so, and came out again—when at the Twickenham Station

I showed her her cell, and she said "Before you shut me up I want to tell you something"—I cautioned her, and she said "Never mind; the cheque I passed at Wright Brothers' I filled up and lost in Richmond, and some one must have picked it up and passed it; I know I went into Wright's and purchased some goods, for which I paid with some money my sister paid me."

Cross-examined. It was not with the instructions of my inspector that I had this conversation with the prisoner—the charge had just been taken.

EMMA BARKER . I was in the service of Mrs. Gray at the same time as the prisoner—I know her writing, and the writing on this cheque is hers—Mr. Gray keeps his cheques in the library, where I have seen the prisoner—one day she asked me about cheques when she was looking at some old ones, and if I knew where to change them—I said I did not as I had never changed one.

GUILTY. Strongly recommended to mercy by the Jury on account of the cheque-book being left about ,— Twelve Months' Hard Labour.

28th May 1883
Reference Numbert18830528-591
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

Related Material

591. HENRY FRENSHAM (30) , Burglary in the dwelling-house of William Fabling and another, and stealing therein 20lb. of tea and one chest.

MR. GEOGHEGAN Prosecuted.

GEORGE BEARD . I live at Peckham, and am employed in the ware-house of Messrs. Taylor, Fabling, and Co., 10, The Crescent, Minories, tea merchants—I saw the box of tea (produced) at the police-court—it was safe on Saturday, the 28th April, when I locked up the warehouse—I came back on Monday and found it missing, and that two panes of glass had been broken, and the shutter wrenched clean away—a house-keeper sleeps on the premises.

JOHN EAST . I live at No. 2, Royal Mint Street, and am a checker in the service of the Great Eastern Railway Company—I have known the prisoner by sight for seven or eight months—on Monday, 30th April, I saw him outside, Goodman's yard with a package under his right arm—the package was about the size of the chest of tea produced—it was not corded.

GEORGE CHECKLEY (Policeman JZR 15). I was on duty in the early morning of the 30th April near the Minories, when I saw a man with something on his shoulder—I went after him, and he dropped the package after running through several streets—I identify the chest of tea, but not the prisoner.

---- HARDING (Detective). On the 16th May I saw the prisoner at the Seething Lane Police-station—I told him I should charge him with burglariously breaking and entering the dwelling-house of Taylor, Fabling, and Co., and stealing a chest of tea—he said "I can prove I was at work all that night, by the foreman of the wharf."

FREDERICK MILLARD (City Policeman 721). I went with East, and from certain information I received I took the prisoner into custody—East went on the opposite side of the way—in answer to the charge he said "You are larking"—I took him to the station and he said he was at work at Hermitage Wharf at the time.

RICHARD MICHAEL . I live at 5, Redmead Lane, Wapping, and am a member of the Hermitage Steam Wharf Company—the prisoner has

worked there for seven or eight years, and has given us satisfaction—be was not at work there on Saturday, the 28th April.

Witness for the Defence.

ELLEN BURNS . The prisoner was in bed all night from a little after 11 o'clock of the day in question.

Cross-examined. He was not working at the wharf that night—he got up on Sunday morning about 11 or 12—I am his mother-in-law.


28th May 1883
Reference Numbert18830528-592
VerdictGuilty > lesser offence
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

Related Material

592. DAVID POULTON (20) and THOMAS HARRISON (21) , Robbery with violence on Andrew Dwyer, and stealing a bottle of Florida water.

MR. GEOGHEGAN Prosecuted.

FEEDEKICK JOHNSON . I am a rag sorter of No. 1., Union Place, Poplar, and know the prisoners—on the night of the 9th February I was with a boy named Otto in Bell Alley—I saw a sailor there who was drunk—Poulton caught hold of him by the back of the collar by the left hand, and put his right knee in the small of his back and threw him down—Harrison took hold of the sailor by the neck with his left hand and took a piece of paper out of his pocket with his right hand—one of the prisoners said to me "Go away or I will punch you in the jaw"—I stopped and watched—a policeman came up—they left the sailor on the ground and I picked him up and gave information to the police.

Cross-examined by Poulton. You knocked the man down, and while you were speaking to me the other one was robbing him.

Cross-examined by Harrison. I saw your face.

ALBERT OTTO . I live at 42, Gilt, Street, and was with Frederick Johnson at the top of the court when I saw the drunken sailor—Poulton put his knee in his back and knocked him down—he put his hand in his pocket and pulled out something.

JESSE EMMERY (Policeman K 446). Andrew Dwyer is ill in the hospital and not able to attend.

EDWARD H. BOOTH . I am resident house surgeon at the Seamen's Hospital, and have attended the prosecutor, who at the present moment is suffering from congestion of the lungs—I attended him when he was knocked down, and he had an incised wound at the back and elbow—erysipelas supervened—I saw him yesterday and he would not be able to be here to-day with safety.

JESSE EMMERY (Re-examined). I took Poulton into custody—in answer to the charge he said he was innocent—I took Harrison into custody on the 12th February—he made no answer to the charge.

Harrison' s Defence.

I am innocent—I was at another person's house at the time the robbery occurred.

GUILTY of assault with intent to rob.

POULTON PLEADED GUILTY to having been convicted of felony at the Thames Police-court on 4th October, 1881.— Twelve Months' Hard Labour each.

28th May 1883
Reference Numbert18830528-593
VerdictsNot Guilty > unknown; Not Guilty > no evidence

Related Material

593. EDWARD WALLACE (30) , Burglary in the dwelling-house of George James Wood, and stealing therein five coats, four pairs of trousers, and other articles.

MR. GEOGHEGAH Prosecuted.

DAVIS CRACKETT (Policeman N 547). On the 24th April I was on duty in the Southgate Road when I saw the prisoner in company with Moore, who has pleaded guilty, coming along—I took Wallace into custody, and I took Moore into custody on another charge—Wallace was wearing these trousers (produced)—they were identified by Mr. Wood at the police-court—Wallace said he had bought them on the Thursday before they were stolen.

GEORGE JAMES WOOD . I am a clothier, of 536, Kingsland Road—my shop was broken open on the 19th April, and some boys' suits and men's vests were stolen—these are my trousers (produced)—there were two pairs left behind which are not mine—this is one which was so left.


There was a further indictment against the prisoner, on which no evidence was offered .

28th May 1883
Reference Numbert18830528-594
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

Related Material

594. RICHARD SCHRIVENER (18) , Burglary in the dwelling-house of Henry Norman, and stealing therein eight pairs of boots. Second Count, receiving the same.

MR. GEOGHEGAN Prosecuted.

HENRY NORMAN . I am a boot manufacturer, of 9 and 10, Farrington Road Buildings, Clerkenwell—no one sleeps in No. 9—I was awoke in the middle of the night by hearing a noise in No. 10—I went to the window and saw a short man, about 5 feet 4 inches—I called out and he ran away—I examined my premises and missed eight pairs of boots—shortly after, a constable came to my house and showed mo these two pairs of boots (produced), which came from my premises.

WILLIAM TUCKER (Policeman G 175). At 2.45 a.m. on the 17th I was on duty in Mount Pleasant, when I saw the prisoner with another man come out of Cold bath Square—the prisoners coat looked bulky, and I asked him what he had there—he took his coat off and these boots fell out of the lining, and he ran away—I called "Stop thief!" and he ran into a doorway—I caught him behind a door—I asked him to tell me where he got the boots—when I took him back he said a man had put them in his pocket—I took him to the station, and the other man got away.

The Prisoner's Statement before the Magistrate. "I was coming along home and saw a man I knew, and he had the boots under his arm, and he asked me to take the boots home for him. I knew I was doing wrong, and when I saw the constable I took off my coat and ran away."

The prisoner, in his defence, repeated this statement.

GUILTY on the Second Count. Twelve Months' Hard Labour.

28th May 1883
Reference Numbert18830528-595
VerdictGuilty > lesser offence
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

Related Material

595. DENNIS RUSSELL (18) , Feloniously assaulting Wilson Carlisle, and occasioning him actual bodily harm.

MR. B. KNOWLES Prosecuted; MR. BURNIE Defended. THE REV. WILSON CARLISLE. I am a clerk in holy orders, and conduct a mission at Portcullis Hall, Westminster—I was so engaged on the 14th May, and started a procession shortly after 4 p.m.—on our we saw the prisoner, who accompanied the procession, now and then pushing, and sometimes jumping in front with others, hindering the procession; and then we came to Regeney Street, where the hall is situated, and there he was knocking two women about at the back part

of the procession, and he was about, I thought, to treat them very roughly indeed—I placed myself between the women and the prisoner and others—I turned round to look towards the women and received a blow on the left side of the jaw—I turned round to the left side, where the prisoner was, and said "What have I done to deserve that blow in the jaw?" and I received another on the other side—I cannot say that I saw the prisoner hit me those two blows; but he was the only man who was standing in front—I was rather shaken with the two blows, and I again appealed to him to know what I had done to deserve such treatment, when he gave me a tremendous blow just beneath the ribs—I was about to fall to the ground when one of our men caught hold of me, and two of them helped me on to the path, and by their help I was taken into a house and got my wind into me again—I tried my best to go on with the evening meeting, but I was not able to conduct it, as I was not quite up to the mark—I have suffered slightly from the blows up to the present moment.

Cross-examined. The mission is called the "Church Army"—we march out in processions, and have banners—crowds assemble sometimes, as on this occasion—it was in Regency Street where the prisoner struck me—it is not a narrow street, and was not filled up with people—our procession was four abreast, and consisted of about 120 or 130 persons—the crowd consisted of about 200 perhaps—there was no excitement going on—there were several people around at the time.

Re-examined. I did not see anybody but the prisoner and another man—the other man was not so close as the prisoner.

FREDERICK GEORGE YOUNG . I live at 26, Upper Manchester Street—I left the Portcullis Hall at 4 o'clock on the day in question—after we left I saw the prisoner assault Mr. Bowers, and I, with Mr. Carlisle, tried to get Mr. Bowers away from the prisoner, whereupon the prisoner attacked Mr. Carlisle, and in attacking him he aimed several blows at me, which I fenced off with my arm, and I saw him then strike two blows, one each side of Mr. Carlisle's face—after he struck him the blows in the face he struck him on the ribs—I saw Mr. Carlisle stagger, and I helped him on to the path, and went on with the procession—the prisoner followed me up, and finding me as good as himself, he got his foot in front of me, and sent me in the road, right on my side.

Cross-examined. At the time the prisoner was assaulting Mr. Bowers the procession was stopped at the top of Regency Street—lam an officer in the Church Army—there were other people standing by, but not to do up any harm—Mr. Carlisle was close to me.

HERBERT H. BOWERS . I am a clerk at the Metropolitan Board of Works, and was at Portcullis Hall at the time in question—at a little after 4 o'clock we were going up Regency Street, and after we passed the end of Regency Street, from the side of St. Peter Street a lot of roughs joined us—they went round with us all the way to make themselves objectionable, and as we came back into Regency Street I was hit several times—Mr. Carlisle moved us to the other side—I then saw the prisoner hit Mr. Young twice on the left side, and once in the face.

Cross-examined. A number of roughs made themselves objectionable all along the route, and assaulted the army in different ways.

GUILTY of a common assault. Six Months' Hard Labour.

OLD COURT.—Wednesday, May 30th, 1883.

Before Mr. Justice Hawkins.

28th May 1883
Reference Numbert18830528-596
VerdictGuilty > with recommendation
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

Related Material

596. CHARLES DAVID PENNING (17) , Stealing, whilst employed in the Post Office, a letter containing two pairs of stockings, and an order for the payment of 10s.

MR. COWIE Q.C., with MR. BAGGALLAY Prosecuted; MR. BURNIE Defended.

EZRA BARNWELL MILES . I am the son of the postmaster at Lutterworth, and assist him in the office—on 9th February I issued this postal order for 10s. to Miss Collins, of Bittiswell—the names of the paying office and the payee were left in blank—that was the only order we issued that day—there is a sub-office at Bittiswell, close to Lutterworth—in the ordinary course a letter posted at Bittiswell between 6 and 7 p.m. would come to Lutterworth the same evening in time for the 8.20 dispatch.

JULIA COLLINS . I am in service at Bittiswell Hall, Lutterworth—I obtained this postal order for 10s. at the office at Lutterworth on 9th February—the name of the paying office and the payee were then in blank—I did hot fill up those blanks—I kept it in my possession till 13th February, and then posted it with two pairs of child's stockings, one navy blue and the other grey, and gave it to Margaret Hobson to post at Bittiswell—I addressed it to Miss Carter, Crown Inn, Cootham, Pulborough, Sussex—this pair of blue stockings are those I put in; they have been worn.

MARGARET HOBSON . I am a servant at Bittiswell Hall, Lutterworth—on the evening of 13th February Collins gave me a letter to post—it was addressed to Miss Carter, at Pulborough—it was properly fastened up—I posted it at the Bittiswell sub-office between 6 and 7.

ELLEN CARTER . I live at the Crown Inn, Cootham, Polborough—I did not receive any packet from Collins containing stockings or a postal older—the signature to this order is not mine, or by my authority.

JOHN ARTHUR DEVANY . I am employed at the branch post-office, Seething Lane—on 14th February, about 2 in the afternoon, the prisoner presented this order, and I paid him 10s.—I think I asked him to fill in the name of the office, Seething Lane, and his own name—my initials are on the order.

Cross-examined. The prisoner lives with his mother close by our office—I knew the prisoner very well.

JOSEPH FRAYER . I am overseer in the Inland Branch of the General Post Office—I know the prisoner—a letter packet leaving Lutterworth at 20 minutes past 8 on 13th February would reach the General Post Office in London by the 4.30 train a.m.—the prisoner was on duty at that time at the S.E. division—a letter directed to Pulborough would pass through that division, and the prisoner would have access to it—I know his handwriting—the signature to this order is his writing.

Cross-examined. The prisoner was an assistant sorter, but was principal sorter on duty that morning—he came on duty at 4.30 a.m.—we had extra sorters that morning, being Valentine's morning—there were four or five other sorters besides the prisoner.

ALBERT KIRBY . I am a letter-carrier in the E.C. district—I know the prisoner—in February last he was living in Trinity Buildings, Great Tower Street, with his mother—it was my duty to deliver letters there—I have delivered letters there addressed to the prisoner—about February

I noticed that he had a number of packets that had been addressed in the country, and re-addressed to his place in London—I remember delivering a packet on 14th February that had been re-directed—I cannot remember what the address had been—I knew the prisoner as a junior sorter in the General Post Office—I afterwards spoke to the prisoner's mother about this, and afterwards made a communication to my superior officer—since that I have not noticed any re-directed letters to be delivered to the prisoner—I mentioned to the prisoner about having this number of letters during the Valentine week—he said they were valentines—I also spoke to him about it once besides—I can't remember the exact date—he asked me if I had any letters for him—I said "No"—he said they were presents from his young lady.

CHARLES JAMES STEVENS . I am travelling clerk attached to the Missing Letter Department of the General Post Office—on 24th April, in consequence of instructions and information, I stopped the prisoner as he was leaving the Inland Office—I brought him to my room—I told him who I was, and said "On 13th February Julia Collins, of Bittiswell Hall, Lutterworth, posted a packet containing two pairs of stockings and a postal order for 10s., No. 651, issued on 9th February, addressed to Miss Carter, Crown Inn, Cootham, Pulborough, Sussex. That packet would, in due course, reach the inland branch on the following morning, and be sorted at the S.E. Division, where you were on duty. I have received a complaint stating that that packet never reached its destination. The postal order enclosed in that letter was presented and paid to the signature of 'C. D. Penning' at the Seething Lane branch office the same day, and on inquiry of the paying clerk he states that he remembers paying that order to you. Where did you get it from?" I took down his statement at the time and read it over to him—he said "I remember something coming to my house; it was a pair of stockings and a postal order for 10s. enclosed. It was made payable to some name at the Seething Lane Post Office. I signed the order 'C. D Penning' when I received the money. My mother remarked that it was a strange thing that stockings should come, but being Valentine's Day there would not be much notice taken of it. There were two pairs of stockings. I gave the stockings to my aunt for her little boy, Mrs. Phillimore, Winchester Road, Harrow Road." He afterwards said his aunt's name was Dixon, as she had married again—I said "Who sent you the packet?"—he said "I don't know"—I said "You understand what I say. This order has been stolen from a packet. Was the packet re-directed to your address?"—he said "No"—he was afterwards told that he would be given into custody for stealing the postal order and stockings—he said "The packet was re-directed to me by Farrow, a boy sorter in the same office. I told him when I came on duty in the evening what the packet contained, and that there was a bother about the order, and Farrow replied 'You had better destroy it. I did not tell Farrow that I had cashed the order"—I then asked him about his mother, and he said his mother did not know anything about the order, merely the stockings.

RICHARD WILLIAM FARROW . I did not, on 14th February last, or on any day, re-direct a packet to the prisoner—he did not speak to me that evening; he did not then or at any other time say anything about a letter which had been addressed to Miss Carter at Pulborough—I do not remember seeing any such letter—I did not advise the prisoner to destroy the letter or the postal order.

Cross-examined. I was examined at Bow Street—I knew what the prisoner had said about me—I knew that it would be a very serious thing for me if it was true.

ELIZABETH DIXON . I am the prisoner's aunt—my former name was Phillimore—I saw the prisoner at his mother's house on 14th February—he gave me two pairs of child's stockings, one pair grey and one dark blue—I have them here.

PHILIP THICK . I am a constable attached to the Post Office—on 24th April I took the prisoner into custody—I was present when there was some conversation between him and Mr. Stevens—I have been in Court and heard the account Mr. Stevens has given; it is correct—when the charge was read over to the prisoner he said nothing—I took him to Bow Street—the charge was read over to him by the officer on duty who took the charge.

GUILTY.Strengly recommended to mercy on account of his youth. Twelve Months' Hard Labour.

28th May 1883
Reference Numbert18830528-597
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

Related Material

597. JOSEPH WALKER (33) was indicted for, and charged on the Coroner's Inquisition with, the manslaughter of James Welch.

MR. TORR Prosecuted.

GEORGE RALPH (Police Sergeant H 16). On 23rd April, about 9.40 in the evening, the deceased James Welch was brought to the station in Leman Street by Constable Barber—a man named Brown came with him—the prisoner charged Welch with an assault—Welch was placed in the dock—while he was there he fell down in a faint and helpless condition—I told the constable to bring him out of the dock—we examined him and noticed blood on his left wrist-we took he coat off and found that he had a stab in the left arm, and on further examination I found he had a stab in the left breast—I sent for the divisional surgeon, and after he was examined he ordered his removal to the London Hospital—that was about 10.30—I then asked the prisoner and Brown what had taken place, and they both made statements, which I took down—the prisoner said "I and this man (Brown) were in the Cock public-house, next to the Turkish Bath, Commercial Road, and we were talking of Irish affairs, when four or five Irishmen were present—the man that has gone to the hospital kicked me right out of the bar, and when I was on the ground he kicked me four or five times; and had I not defended myself with that knife I should have been kicked to death"—he produced this knife and gave it to me—he afterwards said at the police-court "I am not guilty; what I stated to the sergeant as happening is correct, except that I was thrown out, and not kicked out."

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. The deceased had left the station when you made the statement—you made it as soon as you could, as soon as you noticed the man's helpless condition—you have only one leg—your coat was smothered in mud—I am not aware that you have only the partial use of your left arm.

RICHARD BARBER (Policeman H). I have heard the evidence of the last witness—it is correct—the deceased made no statement.

Cross-examined. I was in High Street, Whitechapel, and a man told me that you had been assaulted—you said you had been assaulted, and gave the deceased in charge.

WILLIAM BROWN . I live at 1, Gower's Walk, Whitechapel—I am a hawker—I have known the prisoner some years—he is a hawker—he

has only one leg—I don't know that his arm is rather helpless—on the night of 23rd April, about 9.30, I was with the prisoner at the bar of the Cock public-house, Commercial Road—I don't remember any Irishmen there—when I came outside the house I saw the prisoner lying in the road on the broad of his back—he asked me to assist him up, and I did so—I did not see the deceased—the prisoner's coat was covered in mud—there were a few people round—the prisoner was sober—he charged the deceased with having assaulted him—I went to the station—I was myself charged, but afterwards discharged.

Cross-examined. I was under the influence of drink—I don't recollect your picking me up in Brushfield Street—I believe your were assisting me home—I was too far gone to recollect anything that passed.

PHILIP BURNLEY I am barman at the Cock public-house—on Monday night, 23rd April, I saw the prisoner, deceased, and Brown there—I heard the prisoner and several mart men having a few words; what it was about I did not notice; they did not seem to be quarelling, they were rather noisy—there were some Irish people there—I afterwards noticed the prisoner in dispute With Welch, who was standing against the bar—the prisoner was standing against the door, with the door open; he was going out, and I saw Walsh make a rush towards him—I heard some one outside calling Out for police; it sounded very much like the prisoner's voice—I did not go outside.

VIVIAN VOSS , M.R.C.S. I was house surgeon at the London Hospital when the deceased was brought there on the night of 23rd April between 11 and 12—he was suffering from two Wounds, one on the arm and one on the chest—this knife might have caused the wounds—he remained as an in-patient till the 27th of the same month, and then died from internal haemorrhage caused by a division of an artery, the effect of the wounds—the wound in the chest ran upwards beneath the skin for two and a half inches, but not deeper than from a quarter to half an inch all the way.

The prisoner in his defence dated that he only used the knife to prevent himself from being kicked to death.

The prisoner received a good character.


NEW COURT.—Wednesday, May 30th, 1883.

Before Mr. Recorder.

28th May 1883
Reference Numbert18830528-598
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

Related Material

598. EDWARD SLOCOMBE (36) PLEADED GUILTY to feloniously forging and uttering an endorsement to a cheque for 10l., with intent to defraud, he having been convicted of felony at Bath in April, 1880.— Nine Months' Hard Labour.

28th May 1883
Reference Numbert18830528-599
VerdictNot Guilty > no evidence

Related Material

599. SAMUEL LEVY, RAPHAEL ISAAC LEAVY , and BETSEY LEVY, Unlawfully conspiring to accuse Samuel Davis of obtaining goods by false pretences, upon which MR. J. P. GRAIN, for the Prosecution, offered no evidence.


28th May 1883
Reference Numbert18830528-600
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

Related Material

600. EDWIN ISAACS (21) and ELLEN ISAACS (47) , Stealing 24 sacks of potatoes of the Great Northern Railway Company.

MR. C. MATHEWS Prosecuted; MR. BESLEY appeared for Edwin, and MR. FULTON for Ellen Isaacs.

JOHN DIXON POUNCEY . I am a clerk in the potato office of the Great Northern Railway, at their yard at King's Cross—persons are appointed to book the numbers of the trucks which come in from the country and the time of arrival and the name of the consignees, and the particulars are forwarded to the office and entered in the train arrival book and in the market stock book, and an advice note is made out and sent to the consignee, who can bring it to the office and exchange it for a working order to the foreman of the yard or his representative to deliver the goods, and when they are delivered he goes back to the office and gets a lodge-gate pass, which he has to present to the officer in charge at one of the gates, who compares the goods in the van with the pass and permits him to go, retaining the pass for the purpose of being filed—about 12.30 a.m. on 21st February truck No. 6892 arrived from Eastwell containing sacks of potatoes consigned to Mr. Barth, of York Street, Borough Market—the details came to the office and were placed in the several books, which were open for any one's inspection—I sent out this advice note about 10.30 a.m.—the prisoner Edwin has been in the habit of coming to the yard for years, driving a van belonging to his father, who also comes to the yard; he is a potato merchant in Covent Garden—both father and son are well acquainted with the custom of the yard.

Cross-examined by MR. BESLEY. There are three gates in a wall about 200 yards long—there are five gates in the potato market—demurrage is charged if the potatoes are not cleared in two days from the date of their arrival, which is not reckoned till the books are made up; they are kept in the potato market office, not in mine—they give a fair representation of the number of trucks coming in in 24 hours—the trucks are cast off by the train bringing them from the country, and after wards shunted by a different engine—hundreds of people know the way of business betides the male prisoner—it is upon the working order that potatoes are allowed to be removed—salesmen are not permitted to make their own working orders, they send a notice and we use that as a working order—I do not remember young Isaacs ever having had a working order; I should have known it if he had—if a working order was used, and our servants acted upon it in putting down the flap and letting the potatoes go, I should not have the order—no trucks are allowed to. be unloaded or touched unless the potato foreman or his substitute is present; his duty is to check what is taken from the truck—it is not unusual for salesmen to have potatoes delivered to them at early as 6 a.m.—there is a counterfoil in the book of the lodge-gate passes—carmen have not brought the lodge-gate passes on their return to the yard, saying that the man was not at the gate—I have never known the man not to be there at 6 a.m.—young Isaacs came to my office on 22nd February, about 10.30, and said that his van was engaged that morning by a stranger to remove a load of potatoes from the Great Northern Railway, that it had been loaded from a truck, and that he had to back across two lines of rails, and 24 sacks were put into his van—he did not say that the porters let down the flap—he said that the man told him to drive to the Lying-in Hospital, Gray's Inn, and wait for him there; that he went there expecting the man to come and give him directions where to take the potatoes, and waited for him, and not coming, he took the potatoes to East Road, City Road—he said "What had I better do about them?" I took him to Mr. Smart, the clerk in

charge in the office, who took him to the policeman at the gate, Brook, and left him there—I have known young Isaacs well by sight two or three years, but did not know his name—he usually drove a four-wheeled van with one horse, with his father's name on it.

Re-examined. In addition to there being no lodge-gate pass no working order was given to Isaacs—the trucks would have to be shunted about 300 yards to reach the position in which they were—I do not know that any porters were there.

WILLIAM MUNT . I am in the service of the Great Northern Railway—it is my duty to take the numbers of the trucks as they arrive at the terminus—on 21st February I booked the arrival of truck 6982 from East well—I got to the yard of 12.38 that morning—I did not enter the name of the person the goods were for.

Cross-examined by MR. BESLEY. I take the numbers in No. 1 arrival yard as the train backs in; that is in sight of the potato office.

WILLIAM REARDON . I am a porter at the Great Northern Railway—on 21st February, between 6 and 7 a.m., I entered the numbers of the tracks which arrived in the night in the train arrival book, and among them was truck 6982 from Eastwell with potatoes consigned to Mr. Barth—it was at No. 4 arch in the outer yard, about 200 yards from No. 1 arrival platform.

Cross-examined by MR. BESLEY. There are six-pass porters, and I do not know how many supernumeraries—there are, I think, three times as many working outside—although there are only 200 yards the shunting has to go up and down two or three times to get on different rails—a van might be driven round to No. 4 arch—I saw the spot, but I never saw any loose potatoes or straw on the ground.

JOHN BROOK (Great Northern Railway Constable). My duty is in the goods yard attached to King's Cross Station—on 22nd February, about 6.20 a.m. I was on duty in the goods yard; I had been on duty since 9 o'clock the night before—I saw Mr. Isaacs's van near the weighing machine—it was loaded with sacks of potatoes, but untended—I did not see either of the prisoners—I went away on my duty, and when I returned in about 20 minutes the van was gone—I received a communication from Lane, and at 8.30 I went with him and Chilling worth to the 10 o'clock road; that is a railroad; we examined truck 6892, which was joined to several others not in a proper position for loading, and found the stock had been taken out of it—about three parts of the centre was empty, leaving a space which 24 sacks of potatoes would fill, and there were loose potatoes and straw on the ground—I went to the lodge-gate and made inquiries, but found no pass relating to No. 6892—I told Lane he had better go to Mr. Hines in Covent Garden Market and get the pass—he went, and was away some time—during his absence Mr. Smart arrived and brought I young Isaacs—a van would have to be backed over two lines of rails to get to the truck instead of the truck being brought to the van, which was somewhat dangerous.

Cross-examined. Young Isaacs came about 10.16—I saw the truck with the flap down and a few potatoes and straw on the ground at 6.30 a.m.—that did not excite my suspicion at all—it was within 40 or 50 yards of the goods station, and about 200 yards from where the lodge-gate passes are issued.

GEORGE M'PHAIL (Great Northern Railway Policeman). On 22nd

February I waft on duty at the York Road gate—there are two other gates leading into the York Road—I went on duty at 6 a.m. and opened the gate as was my duty—I have a box near the gate, and I remained at my duty till 6 p.m.—I was not away at all—there is a porter at each gate from 6 to 6—I did not know young Isaacs before—I did not see him that morning come in or go out at my gate; nor did I see his van that morning.

Cross-examined by MR. BESLEY. A van standing near the weighing. machine would not in the ordinary way come out at my gate, but at the goods gate.

RICHARD NICHOLLS . I am manager to Mr. Birth, a potato merchant, of York Street, Borough—on 22nd February, about 5a. m., I received this advice note telling me that some potatoes had arrived at King's Cross for Mr. Barth from Eastwell, giving the number of the truck, the marks, weights, and amount to be paid—I handed it to Killingworth the carman, at 6.30 a.m., with instructions—those were early rose potatoes for seed, not for consumption, but they could be eaten—I have seen the potatoes taken from Isaacs's premises; they were the same kind.

RICHARD KILLINGWORTH . I am a carman employed by Mr. Barth—on 22nd February I received instructions from Mr. Nicholls, and arrived at King's Cross about 7.30 with this advice note—I gave it to Mr. Wright in the office, and he gave me this working order (produced), which I took to the foreman of the yard, who told me where the truck was—I went to it, and found that I should have to take my van across the rails—I could not get to It where it stood without being in danger—on reaching it the tarpaulin was untied; the flap was not down—I rolled the sheet back, looked down, and saw some potatoes on the ground-l went back to the office and fetched a porter—I remained there till about 11.30, and then returned and made a communication to Mr. Nicholls.

Cross-examined by MR. BESLEY. I believe potatoes are principally consigned to Covent Garden, Spitalfields, or the Borough.

THOMAS WRIGHT . I am a shunter—on 22nd February, about 7.30 a.m., I opened the office and Killingworth made a communication to me and gave me this advice note—I Verified by the book and gave him this order (produced).

MATILDA NEALE . I am in the service of Mrs. King, who keeps coffee and dining rooms at 115, East Road, City Road—Mr. Isaacs lives next door, at No. 117—the numbers are odd on that side—on 22nd February between 7.20 and 8 a.m., I saw young Isaacs taking several sacks of potatoes on his back into No. 117, from a tan by which a man was standing—it is a greengrocer's shop and they sell coal.

Cross-examined by MR. BESLEY. The Great Northern Railway have worried me a great deal about the time—there is no circumstance by which I can fix the time.

Cross-examined by MR. FULTON. I have been inside Isaacs's shop—it is filled with baskets and other things used in the trade, and there is a room beyond which is used as a coal store—I have never been in there—behind that is the parlour—I have never been into the cellar—I have only lived there eight months—I get up about 5.45.

JOHN LANE . I am a porter under the potato foreman of the

Great Northern Railway—on Thursday, 22nd February, I was at the office at 6 a.m., and young Isaacs came in about 6.30 and asked for a pass for 26 sacks of potatoes for Isaacs's van—I knew him as Mr. Isaacs's son—I wrote a pass and gave it to him and he left—Killingworth came about 7.30 and brought this working order—I gave him directions, and in a few minutes he returned and made a communication to me—I went with him to truck 6892, found the tarpaulin unfastened, and some straw: on the ground—I communicated with Brook, received instructions, and arrived at Covent Garden Market about 9.20 to the shop of the elder Isaacs, who came on business with Mr. Fairer as a potato salesman—I had a little conversation with the elder Isaacs and he left—I remained—he returned in about half an hour, spoke to me again, and left a second time—he returned about 11 o'clock, and then I went back to the yard—I did not see him there that day.

Cross-examined by MR. BESLEY. When I was examined at the police-court Mr. Isaacs, the father, was in the dock—the Magistrate discharged him—I don't think I gave any more evidence then than now—I have I known young Isaacs about a year and he knew me—I have issued gate-passes to him when he was employed to carry potatoes for different people.

By the COURT. I did not ask him for a working order when he came, I we generally take their orders once a week When they have gate passes—I thought the working order would be produced at another time.

HENRY TAPPLE (Great Northern Railway Detective). On 22nd February, at 11.30, after the younger Isaacs was brought to Mr. Williams's office, I went to 117, East Road, City Road, a greengrocer's and coal shop kept by the elder Isaacs—I saw the prisoner Ellen and said "I am a police officer from the Great Northern Railway; you have had 24 sacks of potatoes brought here this morning, where are they?"—she said "They are downstairs"—I said "I want to see them"—she said "I will get a candle"—she did so—I went through the shoo and saw some potatoes there—I went down into an underground cellar and saw 24 sacks of potatoes—I said "These have been stolen from the Great Northern Railway, I must seize them"—she said "Are you the gentleman who ordered the van this night?"—I said "I told you I was a police officer, what do you mean?"—she said "A gentleman came here last night between 9 and 10 and asked me if I could do a job for him between five and six, I think he said King's Cross"—I said "Did you book the entry?"—she said "No, I can't write"—I said "What port of man was it?"—she said "A stout man with black whiskers and rather a red face"—I said "Is Mr. Isaacs at home?"—she said "No, he left home at four o'clock this morning"—I said "This is a very awkward place to stow these potatoes"—she said "Yes, my poor boy very nearly dragged his life out to get them down there"—I got a van and two men and took the potatoes away, it took us an hour to get them up from the cellar though I assisted—it is a double fronted shop with a poor in the middle—I should say that there was sufficient space in the shop to have deposited the potatoes there.

Cross-examined by MR. FULTON. I am a plain-clothes man—I have no doubt that I told her I was a police officer—my face is not red—there may have been other sacks of potatoes in the cellar—I know there was one, and perhaps two, there were not 10—I swear there were not more

than three—there were some empty sacks—I made no careful examination of the cellar—I saw a book on the desk and a bottle of ink—a metropolitan policeman was with me—I left him in charge while I got a van—he went into the cellar with me—he was not present when she said that she could not write—he said "I shall remain outside to see that the potatoes are not removed"—I have not seen him here, he is 26 G, I believe—I did not take a note of the conversation and I do not know whether he did—I took a note of the description of the man but I do not know what has become of it.

JOHN HOLLIS (Police Inspector Great Northern Railway). On 22nd February, about 11 a.m., Brooke brought the male prisoner into the police-office and said "There has been a robbery of 24 sacks of potatoes from the goods yard this morning, and I have brought this young man here; he is believed to have had something to do with it"—he said "The misses took an order last night from a man to cart the load from the Northern Railway in the morning. She told me to take the van and be there before 6 o'clock this morning; I went early to the stable and brought my van to the York Road, and there I met the man who ordered the van. He said 'Drive into the Northern yard.' I drove into the Northern yard; two other men dressed like porters joined us, and they led the way to a truck on the 10 o'clock road. The man I first met pointed out a truck and said 'Back up.' I saw there were two lines of railway; I said 'This is dangerous and difficult if they should shunt.' He said 'Back up; pass them and we shan't be two minutes.' I backed my van against the truck; the porters let the door down. I saw sacks of potatoes in the truck; I and the two porters took 24 sacks out. I loaded them in my van; the man I first met said 'Go and get potatoes for Isaacs's van in 24 bags.' I went to the office and got a pass; the man said 'Drive into Old Street and wait near the Lying-in Hospital till I come.' I drove to Old Street and waited on both sides of the road an hour and I half. The man did not come and I took the load home and carried the bags into the shop." I said "The gate pass has not been given up; what did you do with that?"—he said "I tore it up while going along Gray's Inn Road and threw it away"—I said "You have been accustomed to the yard for some time; did you get the working order to load your van?"—he said "Yes, I have been here five or six years and did not get the order"—I said "You were in the yard yesterday?"—he said "Yes, I fetched three sacks of potatoes from Lewis's warehouse and took them to the stable in Covent Garden"—I directed that he should be detained—I sent Toplin to 116, East Road; he went and returned and made a communication to me, and I went there in the evening and saw Mrs. Isaacs—I said "I am a police officer from the Great Northern Railway; I am making inquiries about 24 sacks of potatoes stolen this morning"—she said that a strange man ordered the van the previous evening—I said "Do you know the man?"—she said "No"—I said "Did you book his name?"—she said "No, I can't write"—I stood in the shop 10 minutes or so, and a little girl came in carrying a piece of paper with writing on it, which she handed to Mrs. Isaacs, who read aloud what was on it and went to the back of the shop, opened a book on a desk, and copied from the paper into the book, and the girl went away—I distinctly saw her write; I said "You told me you could not write, Mrs. Isaacs; now show me the entry, please, you made last night"—she closed the book and put it in the desk without saying anything.

Cross-examined by MR. BESLEY. I made a note of the conversation, which I copied and destroyed—I gave the copy to Mr. Wontner—I don't think I told the Magistrate that Brook said "And this young man here has had something to do with it," but I wrote it down—I was not present when Brook was examined before the Magistrate—I am speaking entirely from memory—I omitted those words from forget fulness—I did not say a word before the Magistrate about the two men being dressed like porters—it would be irregular to use the consignment note as a working order—the advice note shows the weight—the consignee would keep it.

Cross-examined by MR. FULTON. It was later than 11 when I sent Topple to Isaacs's place, and when he came back he made a report to me of what had occurred—I did not ask him about the conversation because I was a witness at the police-court, and was called in at 12 o'clock to be examined—I did not go to Mrs. Isaacs till 8 p.m.—I did not see Topple again that night—he did not tell me anything about Mrs. Isaacs not writing—I was in Lincolnshire while the witnesses were being examined—I gave evidence on 10th April; I had not then had any conversation with Topple on any occasion—his evidence was written down and handed to the inspector, but I never looked at it; I was out of London—Mrs. Isaacs actually wrote in a book in my presence a moment or so afterwards, and I could see that it was not very good writing—it was not very plain; it gave me the impression that she was not a good writer.

Re-examined. The entry in the book corresponds with what she read out from the paper brought by the girl.

The prisoners received excellent characters.


THIRD COURT.—Wednesday, May 30th, 1883.

Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

28th May 1883
Reference Numbert18830528-601
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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601. CHARLES EDGAR CARR (29) , Stealing a watch, some lottery tickets, a post-office savings bank book, a bill of exchange for 30l., two rings, and other articles, and 4l. 10s. of Alfred Thwaites Crew in his dwelling-house.


ALFRED THWAITES CREW . I live at 94, Canonbury Road, Islington—I have a relative, Schaefer, who was convicted at this Court of robbing Mr. Bockett, a solicitor; he is now a prisoner at Cold bath Fields—prior to 21st April the prisoner was a stranger to me—on that day he called at my house and produced a piece of paper, which I returned to him—it was in Schaefer's handwriting—he said "I am a warder, and I can improve the condition of Schaefer; I have appointed him to assist me, he cooks for me, and he overlooks the books, labels them, and attends to them generally, and has an opportunity of seeing the newspaper on the Sunday, runs errands, and does the general work of a lackey"—he said that Schaefer was suffering from cold, and my wife gave him two flannel shirts, and I went with him to purchase a pair of drawers—I gave him 5l. to purchase better victuals for Schaefer—the prisoner was dressed in a frock coat, and I believed the story he told me—two days afterwards, the 23rd, on returning home I found a drawer in my bed-room had been broken open, and missed a silver watch, a quantity of

lottery tickets, a deed, a declaration of trust, a deed of settlement, a power of attorney, a post-office savings bank book, a Birkbeck deposit book with 30l. deposit, and a bill of exchange, and 4l. 10s. in gold was taken from another drawer of my wife, and two diamond rings which I gave my wife shortly after our marriage—the property belonged to me and my wife—except the rings and gold most of the articles have since been shown to me by the police—I identified a great many of them which I can swear to—these are they (produced).

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. I did not say before the Magistrate you first came on the 28th—I did not expect anybody when you came—Schaefer had told me at Clerkenwell Prison when I was there that some one would call on me on the 24th with a bill for 5l., which I was to meet if it was a true bill—he said the name was Batchelor, but whether Batchelor himself was to call, or some one was to call from Mr. Batchelor, I do not know—the piece of paper you showed me when you called had words to the effect "The bearer is the person whom I mentioned to you; he knows exactly what I want done. Will you please to give him all the assistance in your power?"—the writing was very much like Schaefer's, and I supposed it was his—I thought you were a warder, and gave you the 5l. for his benefit.

MARIA CREW . I am the wife of the last witness—on Saturday, 21st April I saw the prisoner and gave him some shirts for my son Schaefer—on Monday, 23rd, the prisoner came again to my house and asked for Mr. Crew—I said he was not in—he said "I must go upstairs and search the house"—he said he had come on account of Messrs. Bocketts and Sons, solicitors, in Lincolns' Inn, and there were some papers—he went upstairs and partly searched the house, and then said—"I am a detective, a policeman"—on the Saturday he had said he was a warder—I unlocked my drawers, except one which my husband had the key of—the prisoner took a file from my son's bedroom, tried to force the drawer, and the file broke, and then afterwards he got a large file from the kitchen drawer and forced open the drawer—out of the different drawers he took away a lot of the papers produced here to-day by the police, and the watch, two rinks, and 4l. 10s. in money—he said he was a detective and must do his duty, and was going to take them to Scotland Yard, and I should have them all returned—I did not see him again until he was in custody—I afterwards received this letter by post—it is addressed Mrs. Crew, dated 8th May, and marked private.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. I did not expect to see any one on the 21st when you came—I told you I expected to see some one on the 24th—mv son had told me that Batchelor would come—I suppose about some bills—I was to pay him some money, he was my son's trustee.

JOHN LANGRISH (Detective Scotland Yard). At 11 o'clock on the morning of 10th May I went to 43, Hanover Street, Liverpool; the prisoner was out—he came in with this letter (produced) in his hand—it was sent by Mr. Bockett at my request making an appointment at Liverpool—I addressed him as Vincent in consequence of what I had heard—he said "My name is Vincent, sir; are you the gentleman from London?"—I said "Yes, I am; your name is Carr, 1 believe, and you will be charged with obtaining 5l. by false pretences from Mr. Crew of 24, Canonbury Road, Islington—you will be further charged with stealing two rings, a watch, two bank books, a pair of stockings, the property

of Mr. Crew, from that address"—he said "It is just what I expected; you will find the things you want upstairs in room"—I took from his hand the letter of 9th May—I found in his bedroom two black bags containing the property which is produced and which has been identified by the prosecutor, with the exception of the watch, for which I found a Pawnticket—I took the watch out of pawn in Liverpool—I also found a passenger steerage ticket to Boston, America, on which a deposit had been paid—he said "They shall have the rings another time, they are not pledged"—I saw him write a letter at Bow Street—I believe this letter (produced) is in his writing. (A letter dated 8th May, addressed to Mrs. Crew, 24, Canonbury Road, signed Charles Vincent, 43, Hanover Street, Liverpool, and bearing the post-mark of Liverpoool, was read. It stated that her son A. S. Schaefer had been transferred from Coldbath Fields to Lincoln Prison in the (the writer's) custody, and that he had induced him by the promised of 100l. to be paid in eight months to let him escape; that they had both got to Liverpool, and if 25l. which Mr. Crew held for Schaefer were sent at once Schaefer could escape to America; that a telegram should be sent at once to say the money would follow, and that if he did not receive it he should take Schaefer back to Lincoln, which in his weak state of health would probably kill him, and requested her to burn the letter, as if it became known the consequences would fall heavily on her son.)

WHITCOMB. I am warder in Her Majesty's Prison, Cold-bath Fields—the prisoner underwent a sentence of imprisonment there and was discharged on Saturday, 21st April—he was, employed in the basket-making shop, where also Auguste Schaefer was employed—Schaefer is still a prisoner there.

The prisoner in his defence stated that he went to the house at Schaefer's request, and that part of the money obtained had gone for his use.


He then PLEADED GUILTY** to a, conviction of felony on 23rd January, 1882.— Five Years' Penal Servitude.

28th May 1883
Reference Numbert18830528-602
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown; Guilty > with recommendation; Guilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour; Imprisonment > hard labour

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602. JOHN MASLIN (26), JAMES LAW (38), and WILLIAM EARL (34) , Stealing 47 pairs of boots, 10 pairs of gloves, and other articles, the property of Her Majesty's Secretary of State for War.

MR. RAVEN Prosecuted; MR. WILDEY WRIGHT defended Earl; MR. KEITH FRITH defended Maslin and Law.

GEORGE BRISTOW . I am a pioneer in the 1st Battalion of Grenadier Guards—I know Maslin—I saw him on 28th April, at dinner time—he asked me if I would lend him a ladder—I did not then—he came round about 4 in the afternoon, and I lent him one then from our stores—he told me he wanted to do some whitewashing.

Cross-examined by MR. FRITH. This was on Saturday—I Might have seen him on the Friday—my recollection was called to this conversation about the ladder a week afterwards—I am sure about the date—he did not say where he was going to do the whitewashing—I have been told he is a married man—I do not know that he has been seven years in the service.

HENRY WOOLACOTT . I am a pirate, 2nd Battalion Coldstream Guards—on the afternoon of Saturday, 28th April, I had, come, out of hospital, and was looking out of the front window at Chelsea Barracks

—I saw Maslin bring a ladder on his shoulder and put it over the wall into the area where the Commissary Transport keep their stores—he went down the ladder into the area, opened the gate of the stores, and went into the stores.

Cross-examined by MR. FRITH. I saw his face—I have not been asked that before—I did not say at the police-court I only knew him by his walk.

By the COURT. The stores were right down below me, just under the window—there was nothing to interrupt my view.

WILLIAM BOBINSON . I am a private, 2nd Battalion Coldstream Guards—on the 28th April, at 7 p.m. I was in the barrack room, Chelsea Barracks, and saw Maslin go past the window from the direction of our sergeants' mess—about five or ten minutes afterwards he came back with a bundle of clothes on his arm from the direction of the clock going towards the sergeants' mess—a private soldier is not allowed there unless he is on duty.

ROBERT OSMOND . I am a sergeant, 2nd Battalion Coldstream Guards—about 7 on the evening of 28th April. I was standing by the sergeants' mess passage leading to the staff-quarters, and saw Maslin coming along one of the verandahs towards the end of the barracks, towards the direction of the pensioners' cottages and Chelsea Hospital—he had nothing with him them—about five or ten minutes afterwards he came back the same way, and he then had a bundle with him, a regimental coat with something in it.

Cross-examined by MR. FRITH. I did not give evidence at a Court of Inquiry—I never did before I went to Westminster Police-court—I did not say there I only recognised Maslin by his walk—I recognised him by his face, because I picked him out the next morning.

THOMAS FLOOD . I am a private in the Commissariat and Transport Corps—on 28th April I was in Chelsea Barracks about 9.30 in the evening talking to a sentry, Sly, and I saw Law and Maslin come out of the canteen; they passed us and went round by the gymnasium school to the waggon shed—I followed them round by the waggon shed; when they saw me they walked sharply away—I saw a bag similar to this (produced), which is one of our regimental waterproof bags, and a soldier's coat under the waggon shed standing up against the wheel of a cart—I reported it to the sentry Sly, and handed the bag over to him, and saw him hand it over to the corporal—on the next day, Sunday, I paw Law in the stable from 6 to 7 o'clock in the morning—he came to me and said "Don't say anything about seeing me and Jack last night"—he calls Maslin Jack—he gave me a shilling and said "Don't say a word about seeing us. Don't say a b—word or Jack will get three years"—I took the shilling and said nothing—nothing had been said about any robbery from the stores before I went into breakfast that same morning.

Cross-examined by MR. FRITH. I gave evidence before the Court of Inquiry—I swear I told them I had a shilling given me—it was an inquiry before Captain Fryer to determine whether there should be a court-martial—there was no court-martial held—it is not contrary to rules for soldiers to leave their rooms after the lights are out—the lights were not out when I was speaking to the sentry on this night—I had no right to go to the waggon shed—Law has generally got a female

there, and I went round to see if he had on this night—Sly saw me go; I did not tell him I was going.

HENRY SLY . I am a driver in the Commissariart and Transport Corps—on 28th April, from 8.30 to 10.30, I was sentry in Chelsea Barracks opposite the canteens—I saw Law and Maslin come out of the canteen straight by me and go round by the waggon sheds—they had nothing with them—soon after I saw Flood, and he said something to me, and Flood went round to the shed and found a bag, and came and reported it to me—I went round there myself, and saw a bag similar to this regimental one standing up against the wheel of a waggon in the waggon shed—I did not look inside the bag—I called the picket, and handed it over to the picket corporal, Bevan—I saw Law again some little time afterwards—nothing was said to him at that time.

ALFRED BEVAN . I am a colour-major corporal in the Commissariart and Transport Corps—I had charge of the stable picket on the evening of 30th April—at 9.30 the last witness brought me this waterproof bag—I examined it; it contained five pairs of new regimental drawers, overalls, and boots—they had never been worn—there are no numbers on the boots—Quartermaster-Sergeant Reigate serves out the things—I handed the bag over to him.

ALFRED REIGATE . I am sergeant-major, Commissariart and Transport Corps—I received this bag from Bevan on Sunday morning, 29th April—I examined it; I identify these contents—some of the things are marked with the regimental number and Government marks, and I saw some of them in the stores on the day previous, some in the morning and some in the afternoon—the store is in the basement under the barracks—there was only one pair of boots in the bag on the Sunday morning—these other boots I identify as similar to those in the stores; they have Government marks on them—I issue boots to the men; before doing so I mark every man's regimental number on them and the date of issue—no boots go out of the store to the men without them—I have charge of the store—I took stock about 16th March previous to going to Brighton, and the number of the boots in the store was then all right—Law and Maslin went to Brighton, I believe; Earl remained behind in barracks—we came back on 29th or 30th March—when these articles were shown me I looked over the stores and found several things were missing, boots, and overalls, and drawers—if any boots were sold to the men, Goodley, the storeman, would put the man's number on them.

Cross-examined by MR. FRITH. There was an investigation into the case; that usually precedes a court-martial—there was no court-martial—after the investigation Maslin and Law were not discharged to my knowledge—I should think they were taken before the Magistrate a week after the inquiry came to an end—they were under arrest for a week before they were taken before the civil power—soldiers when discharged are entitled to a pair of boots and civilian clothes—those boots are marked; I mark them myself with the man's regimental number and the date of issue—boots and caps are never issued without marks—if there is a cap in Court without a mark it must have been worn off—I do not know a man from my company who has a cap without a mark—we can purchase boots and other things from the stores—such goods paid for in cash are marked—trousers and other things do not go out without being marked to my

knowledge—I and the storeman are the only two who do the marking—he is outside—for two or three days or a week old articles in the stores have been open on a landing, not under lock and key, because I had no storeage for them—I pointed out to my superior officer that I had no place to put them—there is a "W" and the regimental number in this cap (produced)—the man's number is not discernible; it looks as if it had been there—there are two figures in white paint.

Cross-examined by MR. WRIGHT. I took stock on 16th March—if I said 16th April at the police court I made a mistake—my evidence was read over to me; I did not discover the mistake—there was an unusually large number of boots in store in March and April, and the room apportioned to those things was overstocked for the time of year—I had the proper number of boots and they were all packed away—only old boots were left on the landing for about a week in November because there was no place for them—that did not also take place in March—I generally took stock once a month—I took it on 16th March because we were proceeding to Brighton and it was the end of the financial year—I took it next on 26th or 27th April—I then found a few boots deficient.

Re-examined. The old boots had been taken from the reserve men when they were discharged at Woolwich, and they and old clothes were on the landing—there are three or four windows to the store, eight or nine feet from the ground—Maslin was sent to nail up one of them on the 24th or 25th, two or three days previous to the robbery being discovered—I tried the bottom part on the Sunday and it was nailed—the other windows were all right—they had iron railings outside—the railings had been broken away from this one at the bottom part—each window is divided into halves—they could open this one before it was nailed up.

WILLIAM YAXLEY . I live at 1, Warad's Court, Pimlico, and am a sweep—I know Law—on a Saturday before May he came to me in my stable in the Court about 7.30—he asked for George Yaxley—I said "That is my uncle; he has gone away from where he used to live; that was at the top of our place"—he took a long bag something like that (produced) off his shoulder and brought a pair of boots out of the bag and asked me if I would buy a pair—I said "Where did you get them from?"—he said he had them to sell for his sergeant and comrades—I asked him how much he wanted for them, and he said "5s." at first, and afterwards I gave him 3s. for them and told him to come after breakfast for another shilling—I saw about eight pairs of boots come from the bag—these are the boots (produced) I bought—I put them on at once and wore them—eventually somebody who is outside came to me for them and I gave them up—they had buckles on them—the prisoner asked me to cut the straps off and make, lace-up boots of them, and I told him no, I preferred them as they were—they were new and black.

Cross-examined by MR. FRITH. It was about nine weeks ago; I think it was in February.

Re-examined. If it was nine weeks ago it would be in February.

JAMES YAXLEY . I am the father of the last witness and live at Warad's Court, Little Ebury Street, Pimlico—Law came to my place about eight or nine weeks ago, I think on a Saturday, and saw me in the stable in the passage—he came inside and wanted to know if the farrier, that is my brother, who used to live at the top, had moved out—I said he had moved away some time—he said "I have got some boots to

sell"—I said "I don't want any boots"—he had them in a bag, and one of my boys was there and said "I should like to have a pair if they will fit me"—I said "Whose boots are they, are they yours?"—he said "Some belong to me, some to my comrades, and some to the sergeant"—my son gave him 3s., and he was to come for the other shilling—I gave him the money.

WILLIAM JAMES MITCHELL . I live at 69, Hanover Street, Lupus Street, Pimlico, and am a stableman—I know Law—I saw him at Colesnill Mews, where I am employed, about 7 or 8 on Saturday morning about eight weeks ago—he had cot a bag something like this on his shoulder—he took several pairs of boots out of it—he showed me a pair, and asked me if I would buy them for 4s.—I said "Are they your own property?"—he said "Yes"—I have since given those boots to Police Sergeant Scott—these are them (produced)—I wore them—they were new when I bought them.

Cross-examined by MR. FRITH. It is about eight weeks ago last Saturday since I bought them; I am not certain to a week—it was the latter end of March of the beginning of April—there was nothing to fix the date in my mind.

JAMES SHEA . I am a private in the second battalion of the Coldstream Guards, in Chelsea Barracks—I know Earl by sight—I do not know the other prisoners—Earl came into the barrack-room with a pair of boots in his hand, I do not know what the date was, and asked me if I would buy a pair of boots—I said "No"—I saw him a second time in the passage, and he asked me would I buy them, and I said "Yes," and I bought them—he had them with him—I asked him if they were his own boots, and he said they were—I gave him 4s. for then—next day he brought two pairs of boots underneath his jacket, and placed them on the table in the barrack-room, and asked if anybody wanted to buy any goods—I was in a hurry to go out of barracks, and did not buy them—I word the boots I bought, and afterwards gave them u—I think these are them (produced)—they are military boots—there were no straps on them.

Cross-examined by MK. WEIGHT. I had spoken to Earl before a few times—whatever he did, he did openly; there was no attempt to conceal anything—when I bought the boots he did not bring them under his jacket—I think it was about the beginning of March—any soldier can go to the store and purchase boots, and have the money taken out of his pay—many a time I have exchanged boots in the barrack-room; sometimes they don't fit—I did not think I was doing anything wrong in buying these boots—on the second occasion I saw the boots put on the table—I did not handle them—they were military boots—that second occasion was on the following day—Earl was a corporal at that time—he was absent, or for some such offence he was reduced to the ranks on the 5th, 6th, or 7th March, I can't say which—it was for no criminal offence—he had a tunic on like he has now—he could not hide a pair of boots under there—it was unbuttoned—anybody could see he had boots there, but he must have been trying to hide them, because he had pulled his tunic over—I can't say if it was a wet or fine day.

WILLIAM BUCKLE . I am a private in the second battalion of the Cold-stream Guards—some weeks ago I saw Earl in our barrack-room—he offered to sell a pair of boots to private Shea—I saw the boots—I never had them in my hand—these (produced) are not them; they had a strap across them—they were similar to these—he asked 5s. for them.

CHARLES GOODLEY . I am a private in the Commissariat and Transport Corps, and storeman of the Fifteenth Company—I know the three prisoners—on 15th March Earl was on fatigue duty, cleaning harness in the dressing-room adjoining the ball court, where the stores were in a large room, which was locked—the key was in the door—when Earl went in I took the key and put it in the window of the room where he was.

Cross-examined by MR. FRITH. I never missed any articles—I get the things out for Reigate, he makes up the parcels, the boy takes them out of barracks, I don't know what becomes of them—I saw him receive the money for three or four pairs of drawers—I was a prisoner at the time the preliminary investigation was held—I did not make a statement against Maslin or against anybody—after I was released I swore against Reigate that goods were sold and the money handed over to him—the investigation was held to consider whether there should be a court-martial—they were not brought to a court-martial.

Cross-examined by MR. WRIGHT. I left the key of the door on the window sill; that is a common thing for me to do—I had left it there when Earl and others were there—Earl was reduced from the rank of corporal for being absent from duty or something of that sort about 14th or 15th of March, I think.

Re-examined. The price of boots when issued to soldiers new is about 13s. 6d. a pair with the buckles.

JOHN SCOTT (Police Sergeant B). I took Maslin into custody at Chelsea Barracks on the 10th inst.—I told him I should take him into custody for stealing a number of boots between 16th March and 28th April—he made no reply—at the station he said he wished to make a statement—it was taken down in writing by Tyrrell and read over to him and he signed it—on the following morning I took Earl into custody, told him the charge, he made no reply—this is Maslin's statement (produced and read): "On 19th March I was stable orderly. After the men turned out of stable at five p.m., Private Flood came down with the key of the ball alley and unlocked it and went in. I was standing at No. 2 company stable and he called me across. He said the storeman had given him the key to get some things out of his (the storeman's) own bag. Flood said to me 'If you want anything now is your time, Jack, as Goodley is upstairs. 'Flood' took two pairs of spurs out of the box. That is all I know." I did not take Law into custody.

WILLIAM TYBBELL (Sergeant B). About 6.30 on 10th May I took Law into custody at Chelsea and charged him with being concerned with others in stealing a number of articles from the barracks—he made no reply—I conveyed him to Cottage Road Station—after the charge was taken he should like to make a statement—I took it down in writing, read it over to him, and he signed it—this it is (produced and read): "In the month of February some fatigue parties were cleaning coats in the ball court alley at Chelsea Barracks. I saw Corporal Hardy come out of the ball court as I was in No. 2 stable. He came to the stable in his shirt bulged out in front. I asked him what he had, and he said a few things and gave me a sponge, and he had some gloves and sponges in his shirt at the time, but I cannot say how many. He then went to hide them, but I cannot say where, and then returned to the ball court again. About the beginning of March he (Hardy) was on picket duty, and

when I came into stables in the morning at 5.30 a.m. he told me that he had made a raid in the night, and the way he got in was by the window, as the storeman never locked the inside door. On Saturday, 31st March, Private Earl asked me if I could sell him three pairs of boots, not giving it a thought at the time that they were stolen out of the company's stores. After I had sold them he told me he (Earl) could get me what he liked out of the basement store, as he had the key, and he had been taking these boots to one of the barrack rooms of the Cold-stream Guards in the passage at the opposite side to the street—I gave him 6s. out of the 11s. I got for the boots which I sold for him. That is all I have had or sold."

ERNEST FRYER . I command the 15th company of this corps—there is a printed regulation for the army about getting rid of clothing—I have not got a copy of it.

Cross-examined by MR. FRITH. There was an investigation—that usually precedes a court-martial—there was no court-martial because we went by civil power instead.

CHARLES GOODLEY (Re-examined). I serve things out of the store—a great many things are marked and some are not marked when served out—they are served out to the officers, who give them to the men—on coming home from Egypt a lot of things were served out unmarked at Woolwich—that does not apply only to those who came home from Egypt.

ALFRED REIGATE (Re-examined). No new article is ever sold out of the stores as surplus stores—the things sold as surplus stores are worn out; the broad arrow is put on them then.

Witnesses for Maslin and Law.

JOHN FRANCIS . I am a private in the Commissariat' and Transport Corps—on the evening of 28th April I was in the stables from 6 till a quarter to 7, and after that went to the pay-office to receive my money—Maslin was with me in the stable till 6.35, and then went with me to draw his money; I met him on the stairs as I was going up at 6.45 on the landing below the pay-office—I next saw him at a quarter to 9 in the canteen, and we were together there till 25 minutes past, and went out together—I was the soldier with Maslin when he left the canteen; there was no one else with us.

Cross-examined by MR. RAVEN. I did not see him between a quarter to 7 and a quarter to 9—I do not know whether he was in or out of barracks between those times or between 2 and 4—he was feeding the horses in the stables from 4 till 6.35—I know the time because the clock is just against the stable door.

ROBERT DEISCOLL . I am a private in the Commissariat Corps—on 28th April I saw Maslin about 25 minutes past 6 in the afternoon and about 7, the first time in the stables and the second time with the officer—I did not see him with a ladder on that day—there is a name in my cap, but no number.

JOHN KEMP . I am a private in. the Commissariat Corps—I saw Maslin on the 28th, about 6.30 in the stable; he did not remain in long—he walked in at the door, and asked if we had seen Law—I saw him again between 7 and 7.30 at the pay-office—I have known things to be given out unnumbered—my cap is numbered.

Cross-examined by MR. RAVEN. The stables are in the barracks.

JOHN CORNISH . I am a bootmaker, of 39, Lower George Street,

Chelsea—on 28th April Law was in my house at 9.30 playing two or three games of draughts with me—he stayed till 12 or 11.30—I remember the night—I heard the bag was found.

Cross-examined by MR. RAVEN. I don't know what date this was—I heard about the bag being found on the following Monday—I think Mrs. Law told me; she is in the habit of coming to my house—at that time Law had not been charged—I heard when he was charged on the Thursday following that he was mixed up with it—I did not hear what time the bag was found—it occurred to me when I heard it that Law had been playing draughts with me at that time—I did not go to the police. court—I only heard he was mixed up in the affair, and I said directly "I don't know anything more about it than that he was at my house about 9.30 on the day the robbery was supposed to have occurred"—he came to me about 9.30, and left about 11.30.

Re-examined. Scott and Morse came to me and I told them I could give this information—I should have attended at the police-court if I had been called on.

MR. WRIGHT submitted that, as MR. FRITH had only called witnesses on behalf of Maslin and Law, MR. RAVEN'S right of reply was confined to their cases only, and suggested that after MR. FRITH had summed up his evidence MR. RAVEN should address the Jury upon the whole case, and that then he (MR. WRIGHT) should be heard in defence of Earl. The COMMON SERJEANT, after referring to Q. v. Trevelli and others (Sessions Paper, Vol. XCVI, p. 110), and other authorities there cited, ruled that that course should be adopted.


MASLIN— GUILTY of stealing.

LAW— GUILTY of receiving. Both recommended to mercy on account of the lax way in which the stores had been kept and of their services to the country. MASLIN— Six Months' Hard Labour.

LAW— Four Months' Hard Labour.

OLD COURT.—Thursday, May 31st, 1883.

Before Mr. Justice Hawkins.

28th May 1883
Reference Numbert18830528-603
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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603. JAMES CLARKE (17) , Feloniously setting fire to a dwelling-house belonging to the Guardians of St. Giles'-in-the-Fields, with intent to injure.

MR. FULTON Prosecuted.

PETER FRASER . I am an inmate of St. Giles's Workhouse in Endell Street—I slept there on Friday night, April 20—the prisoner occupied a bed in the same ward, and altogether seven persons slept in that ward—there were a good many other inmates in the house—five of the seven persons sleeping in our ward got up and went downstairs, leaving me and the prisoner there—I saw the prisoner take a match and set light to the clothes of the bed—we were up and dressed—after the clothes had been lighted I left the ward and went downstairs, and the prisoner followed me—when I left the bed was in flames—I did not communicate to any one what had happened at that time because the bell rang for breakfast, and I went in to breakfast—I heard the prisoner say on the previous night that he would act the Fenian in the morning, and set the place on fire on Saturday morning—we were in the ward when he said that, no one also was present.

CHARLES ROWLAND ELLIS . I am the Master of St. Giles's Workhouse

in Endell Street—on the 21st the prisoner and Fraser slept in 43 Ward on the first floor—the prisoner has been an inmate of the workhouse for 15 years, ever since he was two years old—immediately below 43 Ward on the ground floor was a ward devoted to crippled women and children, who would be in bed—there were 19 there on the 21st—about 7 o'clock that morning my attention was called to smoke on the first-floor landing, I went to the door of 43 Ward and found it full of smoke—I went into the room and made my way, as near to the floor as I could get, to the other end, and I saw there were two officers and an inmate with a hose playing on the fire; they were there before me; the fire was at the far end of the ward from the door—the flooring was well alight, immediately over the room in which the crippled persons were in bed—we succeeded, by means of the appliances at hand, in extinguishing; the flames—I then made an examination and found that a square of eight feet in the floor had been burnt right through into the ward below, where the cripples were—it is contrary to rules for an inmate to have matches in his possession—all paupers are searched on admission.

GEORGE ROGERS . I am the labour master at the workhouse—about 7 o'clock on the morning of 21st April I saw smoke, and was almost one of the first persons who went to the place—I opened the door—it was some time before I could get into the room in consequence of the dense smoke—I afterwards saw the burnt bedclothes the bed that the prisoner slept in.

Prisoner: You say it was my bed; I set the bed next to mine on fire, not the one I slept in. Witness: On reflection I think it was the next bed to his.

GUILTY .— Five Years' Penal Servitude.

28th May 1883
Reference Numbert18830528-604
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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604. THOMAS CROWLEY (25) , Feloniously wounding Robert Gentry, with intent to do grievous bodily harm. Second Count, to resist his apprehension.


ROBERT GENTRY (Policeman P 142). On the morning of 27th February, 1881, about 1 o'clock, I was on duty in Great James Street, Lisson Grove—Middleton, another constable, was at the corner of Charles Street—we heard a disturbance and went there—I saw the prisoner and a woman named Hardy alias Gwynn; they were drunk, quarrelling, and fighting—I had known the prisoner for about six months—during February I used to see him almost nightly at the point where I was—we requested them several times to go away—the woman went away—the prisoner refused to go, he said he should go away when he liked—we then took him into custody, Middleton and I both got hold of him—he kicked me in the legs several times—we were dragged some distance down Charles Street and thrown to the ground—we got up and drew our truncheons to defend ourselves—there were about 50 or 60 persons there at the time, the roughs of the neighbourhood—they surrounded us, and kicked us, and knocked us about—we were unable to use our truncheons—Middleton had his truncheon in his hand, the prisoner wrenched it from him and struck me with it on the forehead and knocked me down partially insensible; it cut my forehead open, you can see the scar now, it bled very much—when I recovered my senses I got up and saw Middleton lying in the gutter six or eight yards farther down the street, and a man named Crawley, Murphy, and several men were kicking him about the body, head, and legs, very violently; there was a crowd round him, but

the two I recognised kicking him were Crawley and Murphy—I attempted to get to Middleton's assistance, but some one ran a costermonger's barrow behind me and knocked me down—a man named Woods then kicked me on the left jaw—they threw the barrow and the boards a-top of me, and I had some difficulty in getting out of them—I saw the prisoner escape from Middleton's custody and run into 27, Charles Street—I did not see him again till 1st of May this year—I found the door at 27, Charles Street bolted—I tried to get in—in consequence of the injuries I received I was 14 days off duty—I endeavoured to find the prisoner a great many times, but was not able to do so.

Cross-examined. Five persons have been taken up with regard to this affair—Crawley was tried, convicted, and sentenced at this Court; Ellen Hardy was the second, William Murphy was the third—he was tried here, and acquitted—William Woods was the fourth—he was tried here on another charge, and convicted—the prisoner is the fifth—warrants were issued against all five on 1st March, 1881—Geal arrested the prisoner—I went with him—I went down one end of King Street, and Geal was watching the other—I swear that I never saw the prisoner after this particular night till 1st May—I did not in Goal's company lay hold of him in October or November last—I did not do so in the company of Rolfe and the prisoner's brother—I did not say "Tom, you may go this time," or words to that effect—I and Middleton were in uniform when this disturbance occurred—I went on duty at 9—Middleton was on the beat, and I was at a fixed point—it was on a Sunday evening—the public-houses close at 11—neither of us used our truncheons; we had not the opportunity—we did not strike anybody, that I swear—we used no violence, further than we were obliged to use to hold the prisoners—Middleton also had the barrow and boards on him—that was when I was on the ground—the crowd rushed at turn when they found I was knocked down helpless—I drew my truncheon before I was knocked down—when I was on the ground the first time my truncheon and rattle were taken away from me—I don't know who took my truncheon, I was partially insensible—I did not see it go—no one was taken into custody that night—Crawley was taken on the following Tuesday, 1st March, the day the warrants were got out—the matter was placed in the hands of Inspector Theobald—I did not state at the police-court that I had known the prisoner for six months previous to 27th February—I was not asked.

Re-examined. I have no doubt whatever of his being the man—I identified him at the police-court.

WILLIAM MIDDLETON (Policeman D 245). About I on the morning of 27th February, 1881, I was on duty at Great James Street, Lisson Grove—I saw the prisoner there with a woman quarrelling—I had known him for about 12 months—I had seen him in different places in Lisson Grove, Union Street, and Harrow Street—I knew him perfectly well—Gentry went with me down the street, and we requested them to go away home—the woman went away a short distance—the prisoner refused to do so, made use of very filthy and abusive language to us, and we were compelled to take him into custody—I took hold of him first—he then kicked me in the legs and threw me to the ground—the woman then returned to assist in assaulting both of us, and apparently to rescue the prisoner from our custody—he called on his associates, and the woman was screaming—a great number of roughs got round, and dragged us about 30 yards

down the street—finding myself treated in this way, I drew my truncheon and rattle, and sprang it—I found it of no avail, and Middleton took it from me—I was so closed in that I could not use my truncheon very well—I had no chance of using it—the strap broke, and the prisoner wrenched it from my band—Gentry came to my assistance, and the prisoner struck him across the forehead with it, and cut his forehead, and he fell down backwards—I had hold of the prisoner at the time with my left hand—I was thrown into the gutter on my left side, with the prisoner in the roadway on my right—we lay face to face—he kicked me many times while lying there, and then the costermonger's barrow and boards were thrown over me—I was very much injured—I had two teeth knocked out, and my lower lip cut, my forehead injured, and my jaw was fractured—I was off duty for 18 months, and have done but very little since—Gentry came to my assistance, but the prisoner had got away, and I had been kicked insensible—I never saw the prisoner afterwards to my knowledge till he was taken into custody.

Cross-examined. I gave evidence in the case of Murphy—I did not give evidence before the Grand Jury in Wood's case: Gentry did—I was not present when the prisoner was taken into custody on 1st May—this disturbance on 27th February was at 1 o'clock or a little after—there was a great mob there after we got driven up the street, not at first; there were about 50 persons—no officers came to our assistance—we had to crawl to the station afterwards in Molyneux Street, a little under a quarter of a mile—we managed to walk there—five warrants were taken out on 1st March, 1881, against different persons, including the prisoner—I did not say at the police-court that I knew the prisoner previous to 27th February—I was not asked.

JAMES WILLGLOSS . I live at 4, Little Union Place, Lisson Grove—I have been a butler—before February, 1881, I had known the prisoner—I had seen him in St. James's Street about five or six times, and occasionally in a beershop—about I in the morning of 27th February I was standing just outside the beerhouse at the corner of Charles Street—I saw the woman Gwynn standing against a post on the pavement—I saw the prisoner cross the road towards her, she began to scream, and they both ran down Charles Street—shortly after I heard a great row down Charles Street, and after a time the policemen's rattles were springing, but I never went down to see—I remained at the top.

Cross-examined. I did not give evidence at the police-court in this case, nor in the cases of Crawley, Murphy, or Wood—Gentry came to me in this case about a month ago, and I told him what I had seen—I am a butler by business—I am in no family now—my last place was with Mr. Dick, of Thames Ditton, about six years ago—I don't know whether he is living there now; his wife died and I had to leave—since then I have been assisting my brother-in-law at the beershop in St. James's Street—I am not living there now; I left it three months ago—I have not been employed by the police.

JAMES GEAL (Policeman D 234). On 1st May, about 12.30 in the day, I was in plain clothes in Gloucester Place, Marylebone, and saw the prisoner on a ladder painting—I waited till he came down the ladder, and then tapped him on the shoulder and said "I want you on a warrant for assaulting two constables in Charles Street, Lisson Grove, on 27th February, 1881—he said "I was not there; I know nothing

about it; I was in the country at work"—I told him he would have to go to John Street Station with me—he said "I think you have made a mistake"—I said "Your name is Thomas Crawley"—he said "Yes"—I then took him to the station, where he was charged.

Cross-examined. I should say the place where I took him is about half a mile from where the disturbance took place, in the same neighbourhood—I had the warrant with me—Gentry was not with me at that time—Gentry and me had had the warrant between us for about seven months—we had been together on the look-out for him a number of times—I saw him in October or November last in David Street, Oxford Street, about 5.30 one evening; I think it was in November—Gentry was not with me at that time—I saw Rolfe in company with the prisoner—I did not arrest him: I looked at him—Gentry did not see him that night or next day—he did not see him till after he was in custody on the 1st May—I have been stationed in the neighbourhood 19 years—I had seen the prisoner in the neighbourhood—I did not in November, about 5.30, show him the warrant—I did not put my hand on his shoulder to arrest him—I touched him on the elbow and said "Tom"—he turned round to me and said "I think you have made a mistake"—I looked at him and said "You can go"—I did not recognise him that night.

HERBERT JAMES CAPON . I am a surgeon, of 159, Edgware Road, and am assistant divisional surgeon of police—on 27th February, 1881, about 1.40 a.m., I was called to attend to Gentry—he had a contused wound three-quarters of an inch long, slightly starred, puncturing his scalp to the bone on the left side of the forehead—his face and coat were covered with blood, and the wound was still freely bleeding—there was an abrasion on the left shin an inch and a half long, and another on his elbow, and he had a bruise and was much swollen on his left jaw—he seemed in an exhausted state—the sleeve of his overcoat was much torn, and he appeared to have been very severely handled—he was on the sick list till 12th March following—I also had Middleton under my care—he was suffering from severe injuries—he was more severely handled a great deal than Gentry—a piece of his lower lip three-quarters of an inch long and one-eighth of an inch broad was struck away, three teeth knocked out, and the jaw smashed—he was off duty 18 months, and is not really well now—the jaw is not thoroughly healed up.

Witnesses for the Defence.

GEORGE ROLFE . I am a foreman bricklayer, and live at 32, Southampton Street, King's Cross—I know the prisoner—somewhere about the beginning of November last year, just after 5.30 in the evening, when I left off work, I was in company with the prisoner and his brother James coming from Grosvenor Street, Grosvenor Square, and going along David Street—the prisoner had been working under me at the same place—I saw the constables Gentry and Geal in plain clothes—the prisoner and his brother went along first; Geal caught hold of the prisoner by the arm and Gentry came round the other side of him and got hold of him by the arm and said "Tom, I want you"—he said "I think, old chap, you have made a mistake this time"—they had a few words; I can hardly remember what it was—then he said "All right, you can go," and he let him go—they went on first and I said to Geal "I think it is a piece of

cheek to stop a man in the street going home from his work like that"—the prisoner had been working under me at this building, I should say, about two months, in Grosvenor Street, at Mr. Ashmead Bartlett's; that is close on half an hour or 20 minutes' walk from Great James' Street, Lisson Grove—I can't say how many times I have seen the prisoner during the last two years—apart from working on the building, I have been him several times round the West End—I believe he has been at work) but not on the same job as me.

Cross-examined. The last two months was the only time he was working on the same job—I knew him years ago—I can't say that I saw him in February, 1881—I do not know where he was living or working in that month—I could not say where I saw him next after February, 1881—I can't tell where he was working in 1882—it was Geal who touched him on the arm—I did not know Geal before or Gentry—the second day after that Geal came to the building and went up the ladder, and Gentry came up after him—the prisoner was not at work then; he had finished, as the job was drawing to a close—I was not called before the Magistrate.

JAMES CROWLEY . I am a general labourer and live at 18, Stephen Street, Lisson Grove—I am the prisoner's brother; he is a painter—in the latter part of last year, I think it was in November, I was with Rolfe and my brother one afternoon about 5.30 in David Street—Geal came across the road, took my brother by the shoulder, and said "Tom, I want you"—my brother turned round and said "You want me, sir?"—Geal said "Yes"—my brother said "What for?"—he said "For that affair in Charles Street that happened about two years ago"—Gentry turned round and said "You know all about it; for the assault upon me that happened two years ago"—he looked in his face for about two minutes, and then said to Geal "No, I am mistaken; he is not the man," and we went away.

Cross-examined. I did not give evidence before the Magistrate—on 27th February, 1881, my brother was living in Blandford Mews; that is about a quarter of a mile from Lisson Grove—I don't know where he was at work at the end of February, 1881—Gentry was the person who said "I am mistaken"—the next day Geal and Gentry came to the building where my brother was at work, about 4 o'clock in the afternoon—he had not left work then; he was about the building—I did not go to Geal and say "You can stop a little longer; we are as half as b—fly as you."

ROBERT GENTRY (Re-examined). I was not with Geal when he touched the prisoner on the arm and allowed him to go—I have heard the last witness's account; it is untrue—Geal made a communication to me that same night, Thursday, in consequence of which I went with him next day to the building referred to—I did not go on the building—I watched it to see if I could see the prisoner, but I could not—I saw the brother and Mike Fordham—the brother said to me "You can wait a bit longer; we are half as b—fly as you are, you know"—Geal was with me at that time—we then went away—I went to the building again next day.

Cross-examined. I went twice, Geal went three times.

JAMES GEAL (Re-examined). I went with Gentry to the building, and James Crowley said "Wait a bit longer; we are half as b—fly as you are."

GUILTY **.— Five Years' Penal Servitude.

NEW COURT.—Thursday, May 31st, and Friday, June 1st, 1883.

Before Mr. Recorder.

28th May 1883
Reference Numbert18830528-605
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceNo Punishment > sentence respited

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605. WILLIAM HENRY COULTER PLEADED GUILTY to unlawfully omitting to discover to his trustee in bankruptcy certain property in his possession.— Judgment respited .

28th May 1883
Reference Numbert18830528-606
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty; Guilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour; Imprisonment > hard labour

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606. GEORGE WRIGHT (29) and GEORGE TUBB (33) , Stealing 170 yard, 80 yards, and 120 yards of floor cloth, the property of the Linoleum Company, Limited, the masters of Wright, to which WRIGHT PLEADED GUILTY .

MR. J. P. GRAIN Prosecuted; MESSRS. PURCELL and BEARD defended Tubb.

FRANK HOWARD JEFFERY . I am a porter in the employ of the Lincleum Company, 144, Queen Victoria Street—on Monday evening, 7th May, between 6.45 and 7.20, I was standing in the street outside the Company's premises; business was over, the shutters were down, but the door was not shut—a cart was standing at the front door, and the man with it went into the warehouse and brought out a piece of oilcloth and went in again and fetched out a piece three-quarters wide, and then two more pieces—Wright came to the door, and must have seen what was going on—I made this pencil note at the time (produced)—there it a slight mistake in it—a man named Swinbourne went and looked at the cart and saw the name on it.

Cross-examined. The name on the cart was George Tubb.

JAMES HEDLEY SWINBOURNE . I am manager of the Linoleum Company and head of the selling department, 44, Queen Victoria Street—when goods are sold an invoice is made in the counting-house—Wright was in my office; he had nothing to do with making out invoices if he sold any goods it was his duty to enter them in the waste-book and have it taken up into the counting-house and given to one of the clerks to make out, and another one would receive the money in the counting-house—these five papers are on our invoice forms in Clark's writing—there is no record of the sale in any of our books or of the receipt of the money for any goods sold to Tubb on 7th May—we generally close at 5.30 or a little after—on 8th May, in the morning, Jeffery spoke to me and gave me this piece of paper, in consequence of which I obtained the services of Detective Langley and went to Tubb's premises in Hoxton Street—I knew him, as I had sold him goods—he addressed me first, and asked me if I had any remnants for him; I said "No, I have come down to see what remnants you purchased last night;" he pointed to two or three lengths in the shop—I asked if that was all; he pointed out two or three more, and they were placed together—I asked if he could show me the invoices for those goods; he said "Yes," and I and Langley went up into his bedroom—he then produced these five invoices—I said "Where is the invoice of the goods you got last night?" after a little hesitation he said "I have not got one"—I asked him to produce the receipt; he had not got one, but he said that he paid Wright 3l. for them, and he could not give him a receipt because he had not got a stamp—I went downstairs, examined the cloth, and found that the tickets had been taken off, but there were two chalk marks on two pieces and a stencil mark on another, indicating that they

were piece goods—I said "Are they in the same state as you purchased them?" he said "No, I have cut them up ready for sale"—I said "Then you must have had pure goods;" he said "Yes, I took them out of the warehouse myself and put them on my cart"—I said "You must know that these goods are not sold at remnant prices, also taking them out of the warehouse after business hours you must have known they were stolen, and I gave him in custody—he said "Do not lock me up for the sake of my children, if there is anything wrong let me know what the difference is and I will pay you"—the value of the goods is about 14l.—it is a small shop for the sale of cloth, ropes, and matting—Wright had no authority to sell the goods, and there is no record of the transaction.

Cross-examined. I left at a little after 5—business went on after I left—all the persons employed were left there—goods might be taken out as late as 6 o'clock—Tubb told me that he took the goods out himself—I took no note of what was said—he did not say that he had 8l. more to pay to Wright—I have received a letter from Wright.

FREDERICK LAWLEY (City Detective Sergeant). I went with Swinbourne to Tubb's house; it is a small shop—I searched and found 219l. in gold, two post-office savings bank books, an I O U for 50l., another for 13l., and a number of invoices, an old pony, and some cocks and hens were kept in the kitchen.

Cross-examined. Tubb said "I bought it of Mr. Wright at the ware-house in Queen Victoria Street"—when he spoke about 3l. I am certain he did not say that there was more to pay—I know that a letter was written, but that was an afterthought.

Both prisoners received good characters.

TUBB— GUILTY .— Fifteen Months' Hard Labour.

WRIGHT— Twelve Months' Hard Labour.

28th May 1883
Reference Numbert18830528-607
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

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607. JAMES WILLIAMS (20) , Unlawfully obtaining by false pretences 2 dead sheep and 12 stone of mutton, with intent to defraud. Other Counts for obtaining other meat.

MR. GILL Prosecuted.

HENRY LETLEY . I am a salesman in the employ of Woodham and Body, wholesale butchers—on 30th March I weighed the carcases of 10 sheep for Thomas Groves, a butcher, while he was there—he paid for them and went out, and in a few minutes the prisoner came in and said 'I'm on for Groves"—I said "Here you are, Groves, here are some sheep for you?" and delivered two to him at once—they were worth 3l. 0s. 5d.—he went away with them, and I did not see him again.

THOMAS GROVES . I am a butcher, of 137, Brick Lane, Bethnal Green—on 30th March I purchased a number, of sheep of Woodham and Body, and paid for them—I do not know the prisoner—I did not give him authority to go for them—I sent my man for the carcases, and he only got eight—I got my money returned for the other two.

PETER GOODMAN . I work for George Gutteridge, a meat salesman in the Metropolitan Market—on 6th April the prisoner came and asked for two sheep for Mr. Barton—I gave him two sheep which Mr. Barton bad just bought—he never came back.

FREDERICK BARTON . I am a butcher, of Camberwell Green—on 6th April I bought two sheep of Mr. Gutteridge—I do not know the

prisoner, and did not give him authority to get the sheep—on 28th April I bought a fore-quarter of beef at Mr. Fritter's, a meat salesman in the market—I sent for it in about five minutes, and it was gone—I did not authorise the prisoner to fetch it.

CHARLES GEORGE DAVEY . On 23rd April Mr. Barton bought some beef, and the prisoner came and asked for a fore-quarter of beef in the name of Barton—I said "Barton of where?"—he said "Camberwell," and I gave it to him—about two minutes afterwards Mr. Barton's man came for it.

---- WILKINS. I am in the employ Henry Pickard, a meat salesman in the Metropolitan Market—on 14th April the prison came and said "I want seven quarters of beef for Mr. Attwell"—I delivered two hind-quarters to him, and he did not return for the other five—I did not see him again—Mr. Attwell's man then came.

CHARLES ATTWELL . I am a butcher, of Deptford—on 14th April I bought seven quarters of beef at Mr. Pickard s, and when I sent my man for them I found two hind-quarters had gone—I do not know the prisoner.

WILLIAM CLYDE (Market Constable). I heard of meat being obtained from time to time, and on 27th April I saw the prisoner in the market—I asked him if he wanted a job—he said yes, but when I proposed to take him to Mr. Fitter's shop he tried to escape—I took him to the station—he said that he had no address.

Prisoner's Defence. I was paid to go and fetch them by a party I do mot know—there were two men together—I gave the name they told me—I did not know I was doing any wrong.

GUILTY .— Twelve Months' Hard Labour.

28th May 1883
Reference Numbert18830528-608
VerdictNot Guilty > no evidence

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608. JOHN GRANT CRAWFORD, Unlawfully publishing a libel concerning Henry M. Carter, upon which MR. FULTON, for the Prossesstion, offered no evidence.


28th May 1883
Reference Numbert18830528-609
VerdictGuilty > unknown; Guilty > lesser offence
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour; Imprisonment > hard labour

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609. EDWARD O'CONNOR (27), MARY O'CONNOR (58), sad ELIZABETH O'CONNOR (22) , Unlawfully obtaining by false pretences a large quantity of boots with intent to defraud. Other Counts for conspiracy to defraud.


WALTER CHARLES ELMS . I am cashier to Mr. Dolman, a solicitor, a Jermyn Street, the owner of 16A, High Road, Knightsbridge—I saw the male prisoner with Mr. Dolman in February last—he wanted the house for a boot shop—the rent was 120l. a year.—he said that he was traveller for several firms, and had a shop at 4, Newgate Street—he arranged to send us references, which he did next day—they were Thomas Morgan, of 218, Tottenham Court Road, and John Andrews, of 48, Blackfrairs Road, leather merchant—we received those two letters in course of post (These were from the referees, stating that they had known O'Connor many, years and that all his dealings were satisfactory)—after that he called and signed the agreement and I witnessed it—he was to pay for the agreement before taking possession, but he did not, and I called next morning and found him in possession—I called again in a week or so and saw Elizabeth O'Connor—I asked her if Mr. O'Connor was—she said no, and the mother came down and said that she was put in to mind

the place till the workmen came in, and then she was going to clean it, and that O'Connor was travelling and she could not give his address—inquiries were then made and the references were found to be false—inspectors went over the premises to see if there was any dynamite there—they found that there was not and Mr. Dolman told me to turn them out—I employed a builder to do so and their things were turned out into the yard—the furniture was a chair which belonged to us, and some boxes and I think some sacks—we got no rent.

Cross-examined by the prisoner Edward. I was called in to Mr. Dolman to answer a question and remained in and heard the greater part; of the conversation—I don't know what was said before I went in—no rent was due till the following quarter—you got possession because the back door was unlocked.

HENRY CALCOTT . I am a stationer of 218, Tottenham Court Road, and have been there 10 or 12 years—no one named Thomas Morgan lived there in February or at any time, but a letter came in that name and was called for by a young female, but I was not in the shop—the prisoner had no authority to use my shop as an address.

MARY ANN SMITH . I have lived at 48, Blackfriars Road, it is a stationer's shop—no one named John Andrews has lived there during that time, but I allow letters to be left there to be called for—the male prisoner has come there for letters addressed to Edward O'Connor.

Cross-examined by the prisoner Edward. I do not pretend that you came in the name of O'Connor.

GEORGE ALFRED STOKES . I am foreman to William Hooker, a boot manufacturer, of 117, Bethnal Green Road—I received this post-card in March: "Gentlemen,—Please instruct your traveller to call with samples as I am about to open a new shop. Yours truly, John Andrews."—I went there and saw the prisoner Elizabeth—I asked her if Mr. Andrews was in; she said "No, but I will fetch somebody who represents him"—I said "I called from Messrs. Hooker respecting a post-card which I had received wishing to buy some boots of us"—she went away and fetched the male prisoner—I told him my business; he said "I will look at your stuff"—he did so, and ordered 12 pairs of boots and 12 pairs of top pieces for mending—I said "Who is Mr. Andrews?"—he said "He is a man who Has got plenty of money; he has taken this place at 120l. a year for 12 years for a shoe shop, but he hoped before the 12 years were up the next door people would take the premises"—he mentioned Turner's and another house which he was buying of—I believed his statement and delivered 12 pairs at 5s. 6d. and 12 pairs at 7s. 6d., and some top pieces, at the house, but in consequence of what Detective O'Brien said to me I took them back again—I have seen a pair of boots produced by the police, they are part of them, and I have seen others in the hands of the police—the police produced an invoice in my clerk's writing representing a portion of the goods ordered.

Cross-examined by the prisoner Edward. I drove the trap with the goods; my boy took them in and brought out the book signed—that was I believe the 11th of April.

WILLIAM HEARN . On 11th April I went with Mr. Stokes to 16, High Road, Knightsbridge, and delivered a parcel of boots and leather to the prisoner Mary—she asked me. what was in it; I said "Boots from Stokes and Son," Bethnal Green Road, and produced this delivery

book and asked her to sign it—she asked what name she was to sign it, in her own or Mr. Andrews's—I said that the one who took the parcel in was to sign their own name—she signed this, "M. Andrews," as it now appears, and I left the goods—I am employed by Mr. Hooker.

HENRY MARSHALL . I am an Inspector of the Criminal Investigation Department—in April last I made inquiries respecting 16A, High Road, Knightsbridge, as there was a notion that dynamite was concealed there—I found the basement occupied by the three prisoners and Timothy O'Connor—on 11th April, with Inspector Swanson, I searched the house—there was no appearance of any business being carried on, the place was very filthy, and there was not a bed to lie upon, only some rags, and one or two old chairs and saucepans—the elder prisoner was wearing a man's coat—I said something about smells and that I was going to look at the drains, and I eventually said that I was going to search for explosives—I said "What account do you give of yourself? You have taken these premises with false references; you have given the name of Morgan, of Tottenham Court Road, and Andrews, of Blackfriars Road"—he said "I admit there is no Morgan, but there is a Mr. Andrews"—I made no note because I knew nothing of this charge.

Cross-examined by the prisoner Edward. You said you were going to Mr. Dolman about giving up possession of the place—it has been a shop for eight years, but never opened as a shop.

MATTHEW O'BRIEN . I am a Detective of the Criminal Investigation Department—I watched these premises by Inspector Marshall's directions—I have seen the two female prisoners go in and out—there was no sign of business; the shutters were always up in the daytime—I stopped Mr. Hooker's goods from being delivered—I was not aware that the prisoners had been turned out on 13th April till I went into the mews behind the premises about 5 p.m.—I saw the two female prisoners there, and three chairs, two boxes, and an old bag—I came out, went into the High Road about 5.30, and saw the prisoner Elizabeth come out carrying a brown paper parcel—I followed her, stopped her, and asked where she was going—she said she was going to take the parcel away—she went back with me to the mews, and I opened the parcel—it contained six pairs of boots, and she had a new pair on—Mr. Stokes has identified them all, and also a pair which were in a box.

Cross-examined by the prisoner Edward. You used to take the shutters down to let light into the shop—I did not see any one touch the goods, and I was watching to see that no pawn-tickets were made away with.

ARTHUR STANDING (Detective Officer). On April 13th, between 7 and 8 a.m., I went to Rutland Yard, to the mews behind this shop, and saw the prisoners in charge of a quantity of rubbish—I found six pairs of boots, six pairs of half-soles, and twelve pairs of heels, which the prosecutors have identified—I asked Elizabeth where she got them, and after some time she said that they came from the shop—Mary had her hand in her breast, and I asked what she had got—she gave me six pawn-tickets for six pairs of boots, two pairs of which have been identified.

Cross-examined by the prisoner Edward. Two plain clothes men brought a man who was believed to be your brother to the station about half an hour after we arrived, and next day Mr. Stokes mistook him for you, and identified him as the person who gave him the order.

ARTHUR FOSTER CLIFF . I am manager to Mr. Hodson, of 20, Charles Street, Leicester Square—in September last he advertised for a traveller, and received this letter, dated 28th September, 1882, from Edward O'Connor, of 48, Blackfriars Road—I replied, and got another letter from the same address, giving the references, in consequence of which I wrote to Mr. Daniel Morgan, 96, King's Cross Road, and received this letter signed Daniel Morgan, saying that Mr. O'Connor was a highly respectable young man and a total abstainer—I made an appointment and saw the prisoner Edward at an hotel, and engaged him as traveller on commission—he sent me several orders, some of which I executed and some I did not in consequence of inquiries—one of them purported to come from Mr. Alfred Rex—this is it—the total amount was between 20l. to 30l. worth—we sent off the advice and invoice by that night's post, and received a letter from Rex, in consequence of which I communicated with the prisoner by letter or telegram repudiating the order, and I think he came over—he instructed us to send the goods as the order had been sent to us in the wrong name; the goods were for Mr. Andrews, of King's Cross Road, who was an equally good man—we then sent the parcel by the Midland Rail way to John Andrews—we afterwards got a further order from Mr. Andrews through the prisoner for goods to be sent to King's Cross Road—we sent one parcel—the arrangement on the order was, I think, for five off in 30 days—we sent this bill for his acceptance, and received it back marked "Accepted, John Andrews." (This was for 30l. 14s. 5d. payable at the Birkbeck Bank.) It was presented and dishonored—in the beginning of this year, as the prisoner was not doing a satisfactory trade for us, I came to town to see the prisoner, and went with him to 4, Newgate Street, which I understood was his office, and went with him in a cab to 97, King's Cross Road to see Andrews—he went to the door, and an elderly female opened it—I could not swear to her—he came back to the cab and told me Mr. Andrews was out of town, and would be back in a day or two—I said "This does not look like the place of business of a man who is to be trusted with money"—he said "He has always paid his account promptly "—it was a private house, and not like a boot manufactory—we have never received any payment for any of the goods we sent to King's Cross Road—I have identified some boots produced by two pawnbrokers; they were made specially for Andrews—the total of Andrew's account with King's Cross Road was 50l. odd—we did not authorize him to furnish 4, Newgate Street in our name, or to pledge our credit in any way—he was to furnish us with a guarantee, which we never got—we sent goods to his office for him to sell on commission, and in consequence of what we discovered we got them back again.

Cross-examined by the prisoner Edward. I told you not to send the order of September 22nd till he had paid his first account—we did not send the order in spite of that, we had instructions to send it on or we should not have done so—I cannot produce the letter—it was agreed between us and Messrs. Hoff land that we should make inquiries about everybody—we did not make enquiries about Andrews because we took your word for it that Mr. Rex was as good a man as Mr. Andrews—it is a strange thing, but when you removed to Knightsbridge so did Andrews—I made inquiries about Rex—I got back the goods I sent to Newgate Street,

the value was about 100l.—you attended to your business so well that we never got letters for three or four days, because you never went to your office—I do not know whether anything is due to you, if there is it is very little.

ALFRED SCARF REX . t live at 28, New Street, Covent Garden—I know the male prisoner—I did not authorize this order from Alfred Rex of New Street, Covent Garden, to be sent to Mr. Hobson, of Leicester—I know nothing about it—I received an advice that the goods were on the road, and I wrote repudiating the order.

ARTHUR SOLOMON . I am a furniture dealer of 164, Queen Victoria Street—I know the male prisoner, he came to me at the beginning of January and wanted an office fitted up and furnished at 4, Newgate Street—I made an appointment to meet him there—he said that the office was to belong to Hobson and Co., of Leicester, he was their London agent—we sent him an estimate—he said that if we took him off 3 1/2 per cent, he would see the governors and get us the job; we agreed, and he wrote us a letter and said that he accepted our offer to do it, and we wrote him a reply saying that if it was to be done for him we could only do it for cash before it commenced, but if it was for Messrs. Hobson we would—he told as it was for Hobson's, but we did not see them—we supplied furniture and fittings value 14l. Less 2 1/2 per cent, and then sent in our account to Messrs. Hobson, of Leicester, and in consequence of their reply we wrote to the prisoner, and afterwards the prisoner ElizaBeth came and said that she came from Mr. O'Connor and offered a sovereign off the account—I asked who she was, she said she was a friend of Mr. O'Connor's—I asked her if she was his sister, she said no, only a friend, and she had worked with him—I did not take the sovereign and have not had any portion of the money—I should not have supplied the furniture to the prisoner if it had not been for the representation about Messrs. Hobson.

Cross-examined by the prisoner Edward. I sent the estimate to you—you did not deny having my letter saying that payment must be made in advance—on the contrary you said, "The letter will damn me."

GEORGE SEARLE . I am a carman in the service of the London and North-Western Railway—I produce a way bill of 28th November, 1882, of goods I delivered at 97, King's Cross Road to the prisoner Mary—she took the book upstairs and brought it back signed T. Andrews—I found another way bill dated 9th February when I delivered to Andrews two boxes at the same address and gave the bill to the prisoner Mary, who took it upstairs—she paid the charge, 4s.

ALBERT BRAND . I am a carman at the Midland Railway—I delivered the parcel of goods mentioned in this way bill of 16th December, 1882, at 96, King's Cross Road—I saw an elderly female, who signed the way bill J. Andrews—a man who was very much like the male prisoner came in from the street and took the way bill from her.

Cross-examined by the prisoner Edward. He was very much like you, and he brought it down signed—I was there five or six minutes.

HARRY SEWELL . I am an auctioneer—I was in the service of Debenham and Fair brother—on 25th March, 1882, they let this house in King's Cross Road to the male prisoner at 65l. a year—he signed this agreement and I witnessed it (this was for three years from 11th April, 1882)—he was in possession from 11th April, 1882, till February, 1883—I applied to him several times for the charge due for the agreement, but

it was never paid—the last time I called was August last—I saw the prisoner Mary there—she represented herself as the caretaker.

Cross-examined by the prisoner Edward. I left Debenham's last September, but I can swear that no rent was offered—we were to do certain repairs when the costs of the agreement were paid—we did not prepare the agreement.

JOHN HENRY CHADWICK . I am assistant to Mr. Somers, a pawnbroker—I produce two pairs of men's boots pledged on 13th March and 13th April for 5s. 6d. and 5s. In the name of James—I believe the prisoner Mary pledged the pair on 13th April.

Cross-examined by the prisoner Edward. It was about a quarter to 7 p.m.—I am not aware that she was in custody at that hour—she said that she pawned them for her son—she brought two odd ones, and went back and changed one.

FRANK RENNIE LUCKES . I am assistant to Mr. Brobbington, of 27, Wardour Street—I produce a pair of men's boots pledged on 27th February for 5s. in the name of Allen by, I believe, the prisoner Elizabeth.

MATTHEW O'BRIEN (Re-examined). I 'took the prisoner Edward on 21st April at Back Hill—the two females had been arrested and remanded a week before—I told him the charge—he said "You need not have troubled to look after me, for I intended to surrender to-night to clear my mother and sister"—on the way to the station he said "What am I to be charged with first, for I shall have to defend myself against the whole of them on Monday?"—I made no answer.

Cross-examined by the prisoner Edward. I saw Mary at the place about an hour and a quarter before standing came there—I arrested Elizabeth at 5 o'clock, and when I brought her back Mary was sitting on a chair.

ARTHUR STANDING (Re-examined). I arrested the prisoner Mary about 7.40 on 13th April in Butland Yard—O'Brien was there.

Edward O'Connor's Statement before the Magistrate." The principal thing I wish to say is the two principal witnesses I shall call are these two, and I cannot put them in the box unless they are discharged. I would rather not say anything till I can put them in the box, and then I can make everything perfectly dear and straight.

Edward O'Connor, in his defense, stated that although he had taken the premisses, and let the lower part to Andrews, that when he made up his mind not to open the shop he countermanded the boots, and had he been at home he would not have taken the goods in. he stated that had he been at liberty he could have found Andrews and produced him, and that the police might have produced him had they wished to do so, and he would have been found to be as different as possible in build, height, speech, and education. He stated that when Andrews gave the said order he, O'Connor, wrote, "Don't send this order till he pays the first account" but in spite of that they sent the goods, and therefore he was not to blame. Although the prosecutors, not having made inquiries, sought to throw the blame on him, had they asked him "Is Andrews safe for 50l.?" he should have said "No" and that the other prisoners, they being his mother and sitter, had acted entirely under his instructions, and when they signed for the boots they did not know what was in the parcel. That when the boots were thrown into the street, if they had not picked them up and put them in a place of safety, the passers-by would have taken them. Mary O'Connor stated that she knew Andrews perfectly well, and his family and friends, and that she only acted for her son. Elizabeth O'Connor stated that she was perfectly innocent.

EDWARD O'CONNOR— GUILTY of obtaining by false pretences.Twelve Months' Hard Labor.

MARY and ELIZABETH O'CONNOR— GUILTY of conspiracy. Recommended to mercy by the Jury, believing them to have been under the influence of the prisoner Edward .— Two Months' Hard Labor each.

THIRD COURT.—Thursday, May 31st, 1883.

Before Mr. Common Sergeant.

28th May 1883
Reference Numbert18830528-610
VerdictsGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentencesNo Punishment > sentence respited

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610. FREDERICK DIETMAN (20) and WILLIAM ROBERTS (18), PLEADED GUILTY to burglary in the dwelling-house of William Ashby, and stealing a teapot and other articles. Also to burglary in the dwelling-house of John Smith, and stealing a silk handkerchief and other articles.

ROBERTS also PLEADED GUILTY to a conviction of felony in December, 1881.

Judgment respited.

28th May 1883
Reference Numbert18830528-611
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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611. WILLIAM SHERWOOD (36) and ARCHIBALD STEVENS (28) , Indecently exposing the person of William Stevens. Second count, inciting each other to commit an unnatural crime.

MR. BAYLISS Prosecuted; MR. BESLEY Defended.

After hearing MR. BESLEY for the defense, the Jury, without hearing the witnesses he was about to call, returned a verdict of


28th May 1883
Reference Numbert18830528-612
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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612. GEORGE FREEMAN (35) , Feloniously forging and uttering an authority for the payment of 18s. 1d., with intent to defraud.

MR. BAYLISS Prosecuted.

CHARLES WARNER . I am a stonemason in the employment of William Toms and another, The Grove, Hammersmith—I live at 80, Overstone Road, Hammersmith—on 20th of last month the prisoner was in my master's employment as a stone sawer—I was foreman of the work on which he was employed—it was my duty to keep an account of the quantity of work done by the stone sawers—I measure the work they have done that they may obtain payment for it—on 22nd I gave this ticket (produced) out of a book to the prisoner—I keep a duplicate of it—on it I entered the lengths and breadths of the pieces of stone cut by the prisoner—the clerk calculates the feet square—the figures I made have been altered from 2 feet 9 inches into 12 feet 9 inches, and one of 2 feet 7 inches into 12 feet 7 inches—this book is the original—the amounts are not in the same order in that, but the total is the same.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. On the same morning before breakfast I was taking the cuts and you said "Take this cut," and I said "Well, give me time," and I took it—I might have omitted it if my attention had not been called to it—on Friday, the 8th, I took the cuts when you were away, and when you came back you said "Let us take the cuts together, so that when Saturday comes there may be no mistake," and I gave you a cut 4.11 by 3 and another 6.3 by 6, and on Saturday I left them out by an error—the Tuesday's cuts were booked on Tuesday morning—I have never accused other sawers besides you of altering the cuts—I did not accuse Smith—I believe he said so—it is my duty to give my sheets and yours in the office to the clerk—I have not got the

sheet I put in—it would have on it the number of cuts—I have been to take the cuts while you and your mate have been away—I had orders to turn you away; I said you could keep on with your work if you liked—you and your mate left the job on Tuesday afternoon without finishing it.

Re-examined. There were several pieces of stone being out in the yard—there were only these men on the job; I was away from the yard—if my attention were not called to a stone I might not know it was cut—when I gave him the paper the 12's were 2 in each case.

WILLIAM BROOKER .I live at 21, Sutherland Road, Hammersmith, and am a clerk to Toms and Co., The Grove, Hammersmith—I or one of the firm pay the stone sawers—they have a paper which they hand in to the office each day with the length and breadth in pencil put down by Warner—this paper was handed in together with one made out by himself on Tuesday afternoon, 22nd, between 3 and 4 o'clock—it was my duty to super it out and find the square dimensions and the total—both papers amounted to 124 feet, and at a rate of 13/4 d. per foot the total to receive was 18s. 1d.—the two 12's were as they are now—the duplicate by the prisoner was the same—I have not got that, it was handed back to him—I asked the prisoner before it was totalled what he made the total, how many feet; he said "156"—I said "You cannot make that, have another look at it;" he had another look at it, and he said "I make it still the same"—I said "How is that?" I asked one of the firm for the amount of money, and said "I will go and get change, you can have a look at it again, there is only 18s. 1d. for you to receive"—when I came back he said "I have found it out now"—I said "It is 18s. 1d.;" he said "Yes," and I paid him the 18s. 1d. and he left the yard—if the 12's had been 2 according to the foreman's statement, he should only have received 11s. 10 1/2 d.—the ticket is in the same condition as when it was handed to me, with the addition of my ink figures.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. I may before this have made a mistake in the reckoning up—I cannot say if I made a mistake about this—I gave back your paper to you.

HENRY CROOKENDEN (Police Sergeant T). At a quarter-past 12 on 24th May I arrested the prisoner in King Street, Hammersmith, and said "I am a police-officer; I shall take you in custody for obtaining the sum of 6s. 2 1/2 d. from Mr. Toms by means of a forged order;" he said "I know nothing about it"—I searched him and found this pocket-book—in it there is an entry answering to the ticket produced; it is precisely the same as the ticket, and the amount is worked out—the 2's are 12's there.

The Prisoner's Statement before the Magistrate. "I did not alter the number 2's to 12's."

The prisoner, in a written defence, stated that it was a mistake in the reckoning, such as had often happened before.

CHARLES WARNER (Recalled). The lengths of 12 feet are made up of shorter lengths added together.


28th May 1883
Reference Numbert18830528-613
VerdictGuilty > lesser offence

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613. FREDERICK CARROLL (28) , Feloniously wounding Henry Mathews, with intent to do him grievous bodily harm.

MR. NORTH Prosecuted; MR. KEITH FRITH Defended.

HENRY MATHEWS . I am a plumber and painter, living at 32, Sharlands

Street, Marylebone—on Friday, 18th May, I was in the Champion public-house from 10 to 10.30 p.m.; the prisoner was there—I first saw him in the compartment on the left-hand side of me; I was in the corner compartment—I remained there two or three minutes, and the prisoner came round to me and said "If you don't pay me 7s. I shall pay you with a punch on the b—nose;" I made no answer, the prisoner seized me by the wrists, swung me round on to the floor, and then he put his knees on my chest and laid on me, and commenced beating me on the cheek and lip—I was confused after that, and I hardly know what happened for a minute or two, and then I found him outside the public-house when I next saw him—I followed to a house in Little Carlisle Street—I saw a police-constable and told him; he said he could not take him then—I went to the hospital and the wound on my lip was sewn up with four stitches—on the following day I took a warrant out against the prisoner—I did not strike him before he attacked me; if I struck him it must have been in self-defence afterwards.

Cross-examined. I have known him about nine years—I had a quarrel with him about four or five years ago—I have met him in the street twice since then, but have not spoken to him—I owed him 7s.—Wood, the prisoner's father-in-law, came in the bar with him from the other bar—the prisoner did not say to me "Good evening," nor did I say "Good evening," and the prisoner did not say "What are you going to do about that little affair?"—I was perfectly sober—I will swear he did not say so—did not say "As before if you like"—I might have buttoned up my coat—I could not swear whether I struck him in the face, if I did it was in self-defence—we grappled together and fell down, he on the top of me—I was not cursing and swearing, he was—his mouth was level with my face; he had hold of my wrist—there was very little struggling; was endeavouring to defend myself, but I was powerless—I would not swear if I was kicking—I heard the landlord say in the Court that he heard quarrelling between us—I don't know whether he means words or fighting by quarrelling—I could not say who pulled the prisoner off me, I was confused—I had been out since 7.30, and had walked from Harrow, about eight miles—I went to the doctor's within a quarter of an hour of the time I was wounded—the doctor said he could not see any teeth marks because it was a jagged wound—I did not see any barrel or puncheon in the compartment.

FREDERICK RITCHIE .I keep the Champion public-house in Earl Street—on Tuesday, 8th May, I saw Matthews and the prisoner in my house at 10.30—they were in the same compartment talking rather loudly, apparently discussing some subject on which they differed—almost immediately the prisoner made a rush at Matthews and both of them fell on the ground together—I did not hear anything said—when I held them up, the prisoner said "7s. for a punch on the nose"—the prisoner was on the top and had his head close down on the top of the prosecutor's head—I and my barman pulled them up and put them outside, and I then noticed the prosecutor's face was bleeding very much from a wound about a little moustache he had then, and within earshot of the prisoner he said that the prisoner had bitten him—I believe the prisoner said nothing, but walked away and the prosecutor followed him.

Cross-examined. I do not know whether the prosecutor made any answer or not—there was no cursing or swearing—the prisoner was

groaning—there was a rough-and-tumble fight going on and I wanted to stop it—they were quarrelling previous to the attack—I don't know who struck the first blow, the prisoner attacked the prosecutor.

THOMAS MASON KING .I am house surgeon at St. Mary's Hospital—on the night of 18th May the prosecutor came to me at the hospital between 10 and 11—I examined him, he had a wound on the upper lip which had been bleeding but the bleeding had stopped—the wound was incised and obliquely down the lip, and at the bottom so deep as to be almost through the thickness of the lip—it might have been caused by a bite—it was not so absolutely clean cut as it would have been by a knife, but it was what I should call an incised wound as contrasted with a contused and lacerated wound—I put in sutures to draw the parts together and afterwards put on lint and strapping to help to keep the parts together—it is a wound which will leave a scar for some considerable time—I think some slight operation will be required before it heals perfectly.

Cross-examined. I found no teeth marks—I don't think I should expect to—I have examined a wound bitten by a man before—if he had been bitten more than once I should have expected to find teeth marks—I don't think such a wound had been caused by the men being struggling on the ground together, and one man's teeth coming accidentally on the jaw of the other—it was too deep to have been caused by an accident—I do not think it could have been done by the finger nails, I would not like to swear it was impossible—I don't think the ledge of a piece of furniture could have caused it—there is a variety of ways in which such a wound might have been occasioned.

Re-examined. It is not likely such a wound would be occasioned by a man's nails nor by a man's teeth unless used for biting.

WILLIAM RECORD (Sergeant D). At 9 p.m. on Saturday, 19th, I apprehended the prisoner and read the warrant to him—he said "Oh! what shall I do?"—I took him to the station, where he was charged.

Cross-examined. That is all he said—Mr. King, the prisoner's master, and Mr. Holloway are here—I have made inquiries—the prisoner is a quiet, peaceable, inoffensive man and one of the selected men of the Great Western Railway.

Witness for the Defence.

THOMAS WOOD .I live at 29, Huntsworth Terrace, Church Street, Edgware Road, and am a cabdriver—I am the prisoner's father-in-law, and have known him five years—during that time he has always, borne the character of a quiet, peaceable, well-conducted, respectable man, steady and sober—I was with him on the Friday evening in the public-house—the prisoner saw Mr. Matthews and said "Good evening" to him—Matthews said "Good evening," the prisoner said "How about that little affair between me and you?"—Mitthews said "As before," and buttoned up his coat and instantly struck him in the face—the prisoner had not struck him before he was struck—they struggled for a few minutes and both fell down, the prisoner on the top of Mr. Matthews—the landlord came from the other side of the bar and parted them—the prisoner walked home with Matthews following him, and the prisoner went in and never came out again that night that I am aware of—I stopped there 15 or 20 minutes.

Cross-examined. I am sure the prosecutor struck the first blow—I was

between them and said "Don't have any bother to-night," and he struck me and shoved me out of the way violently—that was before he struck the prisoner—I saw the landlord lift them up and put them outside—I saw Matthews bleeding a little at the mouth but very small.

The prisoner received a good character. Before his Counsel addressed the Jury in his defence, the prisoner made a statement to the effect that on his asking for the money the prosecutor struck him a blow in the eye, and was coming at him again when he struck him and they struggled and fell.

WILLIAM RECORD (Re-examined by MR. FRITH). The prisoner had a black eye on the next day when arrested.

GUILTY of unlawfully wounding. Strongly recommended to mercy by the Jury on account of his previous good character. Six Weeks' without Hard Labour.

28th May 1883
Reference Numbert18830528-614
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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614. JOHN QUICK (45) , Inciting a man unknown to commit an abominable crime with him.



THIRD COURT.—Friday, June 1st, 1883.

Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

28th May 1883
Reference Numbert18830528-615
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude; Corporal > whipping

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615. WILLIAM KING (22) , Robbery with violence on Robert Geary, and stealing a chain, his property.

MR. BRETON Prosecuted.

ROBERT GEARY . I am an engineer, residing at Windmill Lane, Deptford—on Saturday night, 5th May, shortly after 11, I was in the Whitechapel Road, opposite the station—I had just arrived by train, and was waiting for a tramcar to Bow—I saw the prisoner cross from the hospital side towards me with two females, one of whom passed me as I stood on the kerb, and the other one passed at the back of me—I walked towards the car, and got on—it started—I was looking inside to see if there was room—there was no room—I stepped back—the prisoner stepped on the other side of the car, the off side, and ran towards me with his head down, and struck me in the breast, and knocked me off the car backwards—it was at the back end of the car, on the near side—he fell with me in the road, and got up first—I felt for my chain, and found it was gone—the bar was left in, and part was left on the watch in my waistcoat—I was not hurt in falling; it has not incapacitated me for work at all—he ran between the two females he had been with, and ran among the people, and I lost sight of bin—my watch was worth seven guineas—I saw him two minutes after it happened—a young man had stopped him—I identified him—I am quite certain he is the man—the females were with him at the time he was apprehended, and threatened to gouge the man who stopped him.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. You did not attempt to reach me when we were on the ground—the matter was done on the car.

CHARLES KILLINGS .I light lamps on the new railway being made in the Whitechapel Road, and live at 30, Pott Street, Bethnal Green—on Saturday night, 5th May, I was standing in the Whitechapel Road, outside the hoarding round the cutting of the railway—I saw Geary on the kerb—I was on the same side of the way—I saw the prisoner on the opposite side, the hospital side—he ran through the tramcar, did a snatch, and

knocked the prosecutor, who was on the car, about 10 yards off the tramcar, which was starting—they both fell close together—the prisoner got up, and ran on to the pavement, and close against the wall—I watched him right round till he got to the constable—I pointed him out to the constable, and he was taken into custody—the girls were there—I had not seen him before—one of the girls hit me pretty hard in the eye—in Brady Street the prisoner made a struggle, and the girl said "Now you can get hold of him; knife him now," referring to me, and I had to run at fast as I could to the station, the two girls and two or three chaps running after me with knives to within a hundred yards of the station.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. I said "Stop him, he has got a watch"—I did not know what you had.

JACOB AKERMAN (Policeman K R 21). I was on duty in the Whitechapel Road on Saturday night, 5th May, about 11, and saw the prisoner running up against the wall in front of the shops—Millings made a communication to me, and I took the prisoner into custody—I told him I should take him into custody for stealing a watch—I did not then know what it was—he said it was a mistake—he went quietly for about 200 yards—Constable 315 was patrolling with me at the time—he assisted me—after going 15 yards the prisoner said "If I go in this time I shall get 15 b—y years, and I mean to have a go for it"—he became very violent, and kicked and bit the other constable, and we had to take him into a baker's shop—there was a terrible crowd; they attempted a rescue, and we had at last to use our truncheons—he was taken to the station and charged.

Cross-examined. I did not twist your arms nor choke you with your scarf, till you began to get violent.

BENNETT WOOLCOTT (Policeman K 315). I was in the Whitechapel Road on this evening, about 11 o'clock, with Akerman—the prisoner was pointed out by Millings, and we took him into custody—he was running by the side of the shops—he walked quietly for a little way, about a couple of hundred yards, and then said "If I go this time I shall get 15 b——y years," and he began to kick and throw himself about; he was very violent—he threw the other constable, and I threw my arm round him to prevent his getting away—he took my hand and bit a piece right out of it—he was taken on a little farther, and the crowd attacked us by throwing stones, and we had to take him into a baker's shop to secure him, and then he was taken to the station and charged—about 4 o'clock on Sunday morning I searched the Whitechapel Road near the spot where the prisoner was taken into custody, and within three yards found this portion of the chain—it was identified by the prosecutor—it was between where the prosecutor was knocked off the tramcar and where we took the prisoner into custody—he was sober.

Cross-examined. The baker told us to take you out of the shop because his wife was ill, not because we were strangling you—I had hold of your throat to secure you—you were not black in the face.

The Prisoner's Statement before the Magistrate. "I do not remember doing anything."

The prisoner, in his defence, stated that he ran on to the tram-car as the prosecutor was getting up on the other side, and that they had a collision, and that they fell down together, and that in the collision the chain must have been broken.

GUILTY . He then PLEADED GUILTY to a previous conviction in December, 1876. The warder stated that there were altogether 11 convictions against him.— Six Years' Penal Servitude and Twenty-five Strokes with the Cat.

28th May 1883
Reference Numbert18830528-616
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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616. PATRICK JOSEPH HARVEY (22) , Obtaining by false pretences from Eleanor Hall, an order for the payment of 2l. 10s., from Caroline Jane Duke 30s., and from Arthur Matheson Fraser 4l. 5s., with intent in each case to defraud.


ELEANOR HALL . I live at 25, St. James's Square, Notting Hill—in the beginning of December, 1881, this circular from Ferguson and Mclntyre was left at my house—I kept it and produced it at the police-court—three days after, I think, the prisoner called on me and snowed me some samples of glass cloths and small silk handkerchiefs, and cloth and carpets at 1s. a yard—they were all very cheap—he said Jay would make up the cloth for 4s. 6d. with the trimmings included if I would take a certain length, sufficient to make a dress; that he had a contract with Jay to make up things for very little, as they were doing a great deal of business with them—I bought two pieces of black cloth for 2l. 10s., and my mother drew a cheque for that amount on her bankers—we also gave an order for, I think, 60 yards of carpet, sufficient for the drawing-room, and silk handkerchiefs and slippers and glass cloths—he left the cloth with us—he never brought the carpet or other things, and never came again—we wrote to Jay, and had an answer back—we never had the dress made up for 5s.—the cloth is at home uncut.

Cross-examined. My mother was there first of all—my brother is the householder; my mother keeps house for him—the circular came to her—I had an opportunity of judging whether the articles were cheap according to the samples—it was dark when the prisoner came—I left my mother to bargain; she paid for me—I bought one to give to my sister, and the other for myself—my mother passed her opinion upon the dresses—there were five yards to each dress, 25s. for each, 2l. 10l. for the two—I handled the dresses—I did not believe they were worth the money except for Jay's making them up at that price—the material is at home, I have not brought it here—I believe Inspector Morgan has a piece; I took it to Marylebone Police-court—it was not really cloth; he said it was very good cloth, and cheap because it was a bankrupt stock—I think it is shoddy; we said so that evening, I put it down in my diary that evening—I found that very evening I had been taken in and had given too much for the material—if instead of finding it shoddy I had found it worth double the money I should not have complained—I have never been taken in before so much as this—I suppose you can buy things cheaper at Shoolbred's than in New Bond Street.

Re-examined. I only bought the cloth because he said he had a contract with Jay's to have the dress made up.

By the JURY. I had a dress made up at Jay's two years before, and it was 8l. 10s. with the material—the price for making up would be 1l. or 25s. without trimmings; this was to be made up, trimmings and everything included—the price for trimmings and everything would be 30s. or 35s.

By MR. BESLEY. I expected to have the dress made up and trimmed at Jay's for 4s. 6d.

JAMES WALTER PEAKE . I am manager in the counting-house of

Messrs. Jay, Regent Street—in December, 1881, Messrs. Jay had no contract with Ferguson and Mclntyre, Glasgow, to make up costumes and dresses—I must hare known if there had been such a contract—I never saw the prisoner till I saw him at the police-court—he had no contract with our firm.

Cross-examined. We make up a good many dresses and mantles in the course of the year, thousands—prices run heavier in Regent Street than Whitechapel.

Re-examined. We should not make up a dress for 5s.

WILLIAM ANDERSON . I am a buyer in the employment of Messrs. Shoolbred and Co.—I saw a piece of the cloth that Mrs. Hall bought; the value of it would be 2s. 6d. a yard for a double width—I should say it was a mixture of cotton and shoddy.

Cross-examined. I buy woollen goods and soft goods—I go through the stock every six months, and then very often mark down, sometimes under cost price—if the young gentlemen who serve the ladies get more out of them than the actual price they do not receive a commission in our establishment for what they so get over the price—they are not allowed to shave the ladies—I don't know anything about the goods sold by Meeking and other establishments—we do not keep mixtures of calico and shoddy.

CAROLINE JANE DUKE . I live at 50, Norland Square, Netting Hill—in the beginning of November, 1882, this circular (produced) with the names of Duncan and McLaren was left at our house, and the next day the prisoner called and showed some samples of towels, stockings, socks, long cloths, and things of that kind—they were all very cheap, much under their value—I asked why they were so cheap, and he said it was due to the failure of a bank in Scotland—I gave him an order for some towels, stockings, and servants' aprons—they were to be delivered on the Saturday following I think—the prisoner went out and came back immediately with another man, and said he had some dress materials he should like to show me—he showed us several lengths of cloth for dresses, and some cloth for gentlemen also—he said they were all wool, but that the great inducement to buy them was the "arrangement that we have made with Swan and Edgar to make them up with trimmings for 5s."—when I asked why, he said they had large contracts with the firm—that was what induced me to buy the cloth—I think he offered that as an inducement—he did not use the word inducement—I bought one close on seven yards for 30s., because it was not a bad-looking dress, and the chief inducement was the having it made up for 5s. with the trimmings—he did not come on the following Saturday with the other things I had ordered, and I never saw him again—after a week or two I wrote to Swan and Edgar's.

By the JURY. I did not have any patterns of the dresses submitted to me, I bought it from the piece.

Cross-examined. The prisoner first came in by himself and afterwards with the other man with the pack—I formed my judgment that it was not a had dress on the quality at the time—he said it was very good, all wool first-class goods, and was so cheap owing to the failure of a large house or bank—I examined the actual dress for myself—we had a dressmaker in the house to make it some time after, before Christmas, and from her opinion I first doubted my judgment—I have not got the dress here, I gave a pattern—I expected on a future day Swan and Edgar would

make and trim it for 5s.—I had never known that they made up ladies' own materials, I thought it was most extraordinary—I never knew address made up for 5s. without trimmings—I have never given more than 1l. for trimmings for a dress, that would be about an ordinary cost; and 1l. would be an ordinary cost for making up.

LEWIS EDGAR . I am a member of the firm of Swan and Edgar, Regent Street—our firm never had a contract to make up dresses with Duncan and McLaren, or Ferguson and Harvey—I did not know the prisoner before I saw him at the police-court; there had been no large transactions between Duncan and McLaren and us.

Cross-examined. It would not be possible to make up and trim a dress for that amount unless the materials and labour cost nothing—Swan and Edgar have made up ladies' own materials, not for 5s.—they do not charge more when ladies bring their own materials—it is very usual for ladies to do so—we have made up possibly half a dozen in that way—it would only be for regular customers, people we know—we charge what is just and right; we do not put a little on to discourage it—we do not cultivate that class of business—I don't think there is any customer of ours who ever had a dress made up for 5s.

WILLIAM ANDERSON (Re-examined). The value of this is not more than 2s. 6d. a yard—it appears to be a mixture of cotton and shoddy.

Cross-examined. Shoddy is old woollen material beaten up and made up again—there is a proportion of wool in it—I cannot say if it is wool, I am not a manufacturer—I buy a mixture of wool, not shoddy—I don't know that class of goods.

ARTHUR MATHESON FRASER . I live at 7, Kensington Gardens Square, and am a barrister—on 16th December last the prisoner called on me—he described himself as an agent for the well-known firm of Duncan and McLaren, of Edinburgh, and that he had come to sell a bankrupt's stock—a circular had been left at my house the day before—he showed me a small circular containing samples of goods which he had for sale—these (produced) are some of them—I gave him an order for some socks and other articles to be brought the following Wednesday—he then showed me some cloth goods, which he said he was enabled to sell at a very reduced price owing to their also being a bankrupt's stock, and he said he had contracts with some firms in London for making up these goods at nominal figures as gentlemen's suits for 5s. or 6s. a suit—he gave the names of Swan and Edgar, Shoolbred, Peter Robinson, and the tailors, Harris and Holdsworth, in Cannon Street—I asked why they would be made up at such low figures—he said Duncan and McLaren had large contracts with those firms, part of such contract being that any remnants that might be disposed of were to be made up by those firms into gentlemen's suits or ladies' dresses at such low figures—I selected some pieces of tweed cloth to the value of 4l. 5s.—I drew a cheque for that amount and gave it him—my chief inducement to give him the cheque was the having them made up at these low prices—I made some inquiries, and ultimately stopped the cheque—I did not receive the other things I had ordered, and never saw the prisoner again.

Cross-examined. He may nave said a lady's dress would cost 8s. or 9s. to make up with the trimmings—the goods are at my house—I have not paid for them—I believe samples are here—the police have not asked for the goods—I selected my own material—he said it was very good cloth, all wool, and part of a bankrupt's stock, and being sold exceedingly

cheap under exceptional circumstances—I examined the articles—I forget if I bought enough for a suit and for an extra pair of trousers—the items are all specified in this receipt (produced) which he gave—on the back of it are the names of the tailors who would make it up—it has been measured by Mr. Anderson—there is a counting-house suit and a country suit—I thought it was moderately cheap—I am not a specialist—I do not know how much there was—I believe a pattern of "the lady's costume and jacket extra" was given to Mr. Anderson—the materials I saw pleased me—I selected my own colour—he said it was wonderfully cheap—they came to 4l. 5s.—he was to send me a card on the Wednesday morning, which I was to send on to the tailor—I parted with the cheque on the Saturday—I stopped the cheque on the Tuesday—I should not have given him the cheque if he had proposed to take the goods away—I parted with the cheque in respect of the goods and something he was to do on the Wednesday.

WILLIAM ANDERSON (Re-examined). Messrs. Shoolbred have no contract with Duncan and McLaren—I have seen the stuff given to Mr. Fraser; it is a mixture of cotton and shoddy, similar to the other goods I have seen.

Cross-examined. I think they are made in Yorkshire—there are 13 1/2 yards in the three piece, I think—the first suiting with the extra trousers come to 1l. 5s.; it is a different colour and pattern from the country suiting—I can't say how many yards that is—I only saw three pieces, not four—the value of the stuff is 35s. the lot.

DANIEL MORGAN (Inspector X). I went to Scarboro on 4th May, and received the prisoner from the police there—I read the warrant to him—he said "I never used or went by the name of H. Scott"—I told him I should take him to London to be identified—he afterwards said "I had the cheque from Mr. Fraser; I did not know I was doing wrong"—a number of circulars and papers which have been produced were handed over to me by the police as having been found on him—they are in the names of Duncan and McLaren, Harvey and Fraser, James Scott, and other names—the circulars are the same, but the names vary.

MR. BESLEY submitted that there was no case to go to the Jury, as the alleged false pretence was but an exaggeration of value, the witnesses having seen the cloth themselves and Judged of its quality before they parted with their money, and that the promise of making up for a certain sum was a promise that something should be done in the future, and cited Q. v. Childers (Sessions Paper, Vol. XCVII., p. 304), the decision of Chief Baron Pollock (Cox's Criminal Oases, Vol. IX., in Q. v. Evans), that of Lord Campbell and Justice Earl (Deersley and Bell, pp. 265 and 269, Elkington's case), also Q. v. Jenison (Leigh and Gave, p. 157), and Q. v. Johnson (Bussell on Crimes).

MR. PURCELL, in reply, referred to the Q. v. Cooper (Queen's Bench Reporte, Vol. III.), and Q. v. Ardley (in the Criminal Cases reported), and argued that the false pretence which induced the witnesses to part with their money was the statement that the dresses would be made up for 5s., and that the prisoner's firm had contracts with Swan and Edgar and Shoolbred, and that that was not a future event, but a present ability to do something.

MR. HICKS having also been heard in support of MR. BESLEY'S argument that the statement about the making up was a promise of something to be done in the future, the COMMON SERJEANT, after consulting the RECORDER, ruled that the ease was one to go to the Jury.

GUILTY . MORGAN stated that this scheme of swindling had been going on

for 18 months all over England. The prisoner received a good character.— six Months without Hard Labour.

OLD COURT.—Saturday, June 2nd, 1883.

Before Mr. Justice Hawkins.

28th May 1883
Reference Numbert18830528-617
VerdictNot Guilty > no evidence

Related Material

617. ALFRED WATERS (25) and KATHLEEN WATERS (27) , Feloniously killing and slaying Violet Louisa Waters. They were also charged on the Coroner's Inquisition with the like offence.

MR. POLAND,for the Prosecution, offered no evidence.


28th May 1883
Reference Numbert18830528-618
VerdictNot Guilty > no evidence

Related Material

618. ALFRED WATERS and KATHLEEN WATERS were again indicted for unlawfully neglecting to provide Violet Louisa Waters with sufficient food and nourishment, upon which MR. POLAND offered no evidence.


OLD COURT.—Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, and Saturday, June, 4th 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th, 1883.

Before Mr. Justice Hawkins.

28th May 1883
Reference Numbert18830528-619
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude; Imprisonment > penal servitude

Related Material

619. HENRY DOUGLAS KINO (31) and MORRIS DAVIS (32) , Feloniously and maliciously setting fire to a house and shop in the occupation of the said Henry Douglas Kino, with intent to defraud.


Q.C., with MR. MEAD appeared for Kino, and MR. HENRY MATTHEWS,

Q.C., with MR.F. H. LEWIS for Davis.

RICHARD KENDAL . I am clerk to the Commercial Union Insurance Company—I produce a policy of insurance dated 15th December, 1877—I have an entry of it dated 2nd October to Michaelmas, 1878—it is an insurance, No. 567390, effected by Henry Douglas Kino for 6,000l., 4,000l. being for stock and utensils in trade, 1,670l. on fixtures and fittings-up, and 330l. on one year's rent—I have also a policy, No. 567533, for 5,000l., by Henry Douglas Kino, a tailor, on No. 247, Regent Circus, from 2nd October to Michaelmas, 1878, of which 3,050l. is for stock and utensils in trade, 1,500l. for fixtures and fittings, and 450l. for one year's rent—we have a private mark in red ink to show that there has been a loss against it.

Cross-examined by MR. E. CLARKE. The policy for 6,000l. was effected on the surveyor's report, "F 1," dated 2nd October, 1877—I have not got it here (The witness was directed to bring it)—the Regent Circus insurance was not based on any surveyor's report—I am inclined to say that we had one, but it is not mentioned—it would be very unusual to effect an insurance without a report, but I will find out. (A policy in the Northern Insurance Company from 9th November, 1877, to 25th December, 1878, for 3,000l., of which 2,000l. was on stock and utensils, and 1,000l. on additions, improvements, and fittings, in the name of Henry Douglas kine, tailor, 322, High Holborn was put in.)

FRANCIS CHARLES STODDART SAY BOOTY . I am a clerk in the High Court of Justice—I produce two writs, two judgments, and two sets of pleadings in the name of Edward Poland Lovering, trustee of the estate and effects of Henry Douglas Kino v. the Commercial Union Insurance

Company—both writs were issued on 25th January—the judgment is dated 17th December, 1878, and is for the defendants with costs in both actions.

WILLIAM DAVIS . I am one of the firm of Cheerer, Bennett, and Davis, shorthand writers—on 12th, 13th, 14th, 16th, and 17th December, 1878, I took notes in the action just mentioned, at Guildhall, before Lord Coleridge and a Special Jury—I took most of the notes myself, and what I took included the evidence of Kino and Davis—I saw them sworn—this is a transcript of my notes; I have compared it with them.

FREDERICK WALLACE M'NUTT . I am a fireman, and have been 13 years in the brigade—I keep a book of what I do—on Saturday night, 29th December, 1877, about 9.30 p.m., I received information from a constable of a fire at Kino's shop, 322, High Hoi born—it was close by, and I got there with my escape in three minutes, being then stationed at Bedford Row—there is an iron gate in a line with the street, and the door stands a little farther back in a recess, and is in front of the gate—I could not effect an entrance there, and I pitched the escape at the second-floor window and got in, but the heat and smoke were too thick, I was forced to come down again—Howard had then come with the engines—we broke the iron gate open, and then the door—I am not certain how the gate was fastened—we got into the shop, but the heat and smoke were so great that we were forced to go on our hands and knees—I saw a flame come up from the back of the shop from the stairs which connect the basement with the shop—the stairs were not burning, but the smoke and heat and flames came up the staircase—it took a quarter of an hour or 20 minutes to put the fire out—I then took the hydrant down into the basement, and found a lot of rubbish smouldering—it was brown paper and cuttings—I did not go upstairs or into the trimming-room.

Cross-examined by MR.E. CLARKE. I do not recollect seeing any shutters to the shop—I think there was a blind, but it is a long time ago—I saw no actual are on the second floor, but the heat and smoke were so great I could not stop—we were playing down the staircase from the shop for five minutes before we went down to the basement—the flamies were in the basement.

Cross-examined by MR. MATTHEWS. There is no recess outside the iron gate—a man padlocking it would stand in the street—I remember that it was a plate glass door, and I saw nothing to prevent a man looking through it—I did not notice a room at the back of the shop.

JOHN HOWARD . I am a fireman—in December, 1877, I was in charge of the Holborn Fire Brigade—I remember the fire in Kino's Holborn shop—I got the alarm at 9.34, and took the engine down—I found the place locked up, and broke open the front gate and front door—the front gate was fastened by a padlock and chain—there was a great deal of smoke in the shop when we got in—I went on my hands and knees, and crawled towards the back of the shop, and saw flames coming up the wooden staircase from the basement—Nutt and I worked the hand pump till we got into the basement, where we found a lot of paper and rubbish, old paper cuttings and brown paper, which were on fire when I first saw them—the heap of rubbish extended twenty feet by seven or eight broad—it covered the back portion of the basement—all that was on fire, and also the staircase—there were wooden boards above that part of the basement—Puckett spoke to me about a quarter of an hour after I had been

in the basement, and showed me the gas swing bracket, which was alight and turned full on, and turned under the shelf—he is a salvage man—that was in the cutting and trimming room at the back of the shop on the ground floor—the wooden shelf was about three inches above the flame, and it was well charred—it would have broken into flame in 20 minutes or half an hoar—it was common ordinary deal, which lights much quicker than other wood—I went to the show-room on the first-floor, and saw a show-case with a glass front, a sort of upright cupboard, which stands in the show-room, with a glass front, the inside of which was very nearly burnt out—there was no flame then, but there had been; it had smouldered and dropped down, and it was still hot—a hole was burnt through the wooden bottom, and the boards beneath were charred—it was still smouldering—we could not have any communication between the fire in the basement and the fire in the show-case—the ceiling below the floor where the show-case stood was quite entire—I do not think there was any connection between either of those two fires and the fire under the shelf, but there might be.

Cross-examined by MR. CLARKE. I left the premises about midnight, and the salvage men took charge—I did not go into the trimming zoom till a quarter of ah hour after I got on to the premises, and the smoke was so great that I could not see a gas light burning there—we had no cause to go in because no fire was seen there.

Cross-examined by MR. MATTHEWS. Sparks might have blown up the staircase to the show-case from the basement fire—smoke had gone up even to the second-floor—brown paper makes a great deal of smoke, but not many sparks unless there is a draught—one or two people came into the shop soon after I got in—I believe they were connected with the firm—I am almost sure the glass in the case was not broken—I think there is a separate staircase leading to the upper floor, so that the smoke would pass through part of the shop to go up the stairs—the trimming room opens immediately from the back of the shop.

Re-examined. If any one lighted the gas after I got into the premises I do not think the shelf would have been so much charred as I found it.

WILLIAM PUCKETT . I have been 16 years foreman of the Salvage Corps, western district, before which I was nine years in the Fire Brigade—it has been part of my special duty to examine and try to find out the causes of fires—I received information of this fire on 29th December, 1877, about 9.45—it was not out when I got there 10 minutes afterwards—the place was full of smoke and the engines were at work, and the firemen had the branch down the back basement—before the smoke cleared my attention was called to a lighted gas jet under a shelf in the trimming room—I sent one of my men to let a pail of water and extinguished it, and I had the gas pulled out, which was burning—some small boxes and trimmings were on the shelf I believe—I saw in the back basement, rubbish and a quantity of sawdust and waste-paper, and remains of boxes and a lot of lumber burning or burnt—there had been considerable burning there chiefly on the right side as you go down the stairs from the shop—the front basement floor was concrete, but it was timber behind—there was no connection between the fire in the basement and the fire under the shelf made by the gas, one could not have created the other—there was an appearance of cloth having been

set fire to—there was on the first floor above the shop a glass door and a cupboard, and on opening the glass door I found that though the cupboard had been burnt out there was no sign of fire outside—the door was shut—the bottom of the cupboard was burnt through, and the whole of the interior was well charred, and a hole burnt through the top—it was burnt from the inside—that fire had no connection with the other two—I did not feel it, but it had been on fire recently, for it was steaming—that cupboard being closed, it would take perhaps an hour before it burnt through—I can suggest no way by which it could have been lighted from the outside, or how with the door closed a spark could get inside to set it alight, and the outside was quite clear from any flue or warming apparatus—it was something like a wardrobe, you can hardly call it a fixture—the drawers on either side were not touched, and the ceiling underneath was intact—there is a staircase there which leads down to the back basement, and that was clean, so that the fire could not have come up there—I believe there was a partition between this piece of furniture and the stairs—I saw Kino about 11, or it might be earlier—I asked him if he was insured—he said "Yes, in the Commercial Union and the Northern"—I drew his attention to the three separate fires, showed him where they were, and asked him if he could account for them—he said that he could not—Davis was there when I drew attention to the gas bracket, but neither he nor Kino could account for it—Kino said in Davis's presence that he left Davis with the keys, to lock up—on the Monday or Tuesday afterwards I went down to the back basement and found a hole cut through the back wall in the rear, not in the part where the fire had been, but in the opposite side of the basement, about 11 inches or a foot square, and filled up with lumber and dirt; there had been no fire there, and that lumber could not have been arranged from the outside—it appeared as if somebody had put the lumber there to prevent anybody getting in—the fire had not reached any of the stock unless there was any in the cupboard—we turned over the debris in the cupboard and found one or two old shoes shrivelled up; we turned over the atoms to see if the fire could have got in from the bottom—we found no debris such as we are accustomed to find.

Cross-examined by MR. CLARKE. Broadley, one of our men, was in charge of the premises from Saturday till Monday or Tuesday—no stranger went into the premises during that time, only Kino—I concluded that the hole was not large enough for a person to get through—I looked through it, but it was eight feet from where I stood—it was a brick wall, and there were excavations going on—building operations were going on, and I believe there was a hoarding outside—I heard that Kino had said that somebody had got in and set fire to the place and stolen the goods—the rubbish was not under the shop at all, it was in the back basement to the left of the trimming room; the hole was here, under the trimming room. (Pointing out the different situations on the model.)—the gas jet was just behind the partition, which had silvered glass on it—the fire was between the back of the building and the staircase—the hole was about a foot square by 11 inches—I thought it was not large enough for anybody to get through and paid no more attention to it.

Cross-examined by MR. MATTHEWS. The smouldering fire in the cupboard was steaming, it had been extinguished by water—the glass was not broken but the water had got in because the fire had burnt a

hole in the top of it—when I spoke about the gas jet burning under the shelf, Baines was there, and Kino and Davis—Davis said that he left the place safe, in fact Kino questioned Davis and Baines.

WILLIAM HENRY CLARKE . I am one of the firm of Clarke and Brassey, builders, and am acquainted with surveying and making models—in January, 1878, I surveyed Kino's premises in Holborn and made a model, which was used on the trial before Lord Coleridge, and which has, I understand, been destroyed, and I cannot find the dimensions—this small model gives a good idea of the place—I think the stairs are in the right place—I looked at the plan in the first week in January, and found traces of fire in the basement—I agree with Mr. Puckett that there were three distinct fires—there was a hole in a wall at the back which was partly pulled down, through it I could see the building operations at the Blue Posts.

Cross-examined by MR. MATTHEWS. All the smoke and heat must have come from the basement up the stairs to the second floor—it went along the basement, and came up the stairs, not across the shop, because there was a partition shutting off the stairs at the back—that is marked here as a counting-house—the smoke got upstairs through the other flight, the back stairs—the under side of the joist was burnt—the concrete floor shuts off the stairs from the shop—there was a considerable draught up the back staircase, which would probably carry fragments of the burning brown paper with it—no smoke worth speaking of would get into the shop; it only went up the stairs—that is where the damage to the building was done—the rest of the building was very little damaged.

Cross-examined by MR. CLARKE. The fire was prevented from getting into the shop because of the concrete floor—it had burnt the under side of the wooden joists immediately below, and might hare burnt through them.

Re-examined. The joists were charred—I do not remember whether the back staircase was burnt—I think the boards behind the concrete were charred, but I am not confident—the floor of the first floor was damaged by smoke and water, and it might be slightly charred—I remember I was able to get down the stairs, so they could not be much damaged.

JAMES PRIOR . I am 68 years old, and a retired police constable—I was just—on 15 years in the force—at the end of that time I was disabled, and received a gratuity of 50l. on retirement—since then I have been employed as a watchman on different buildings, amongst others by Messrs. Assheton and Lathy, Crisp Street, Poplar, who were rebuilding the Blue Posts in Southampton Buildings—I was watchman there for the five months before the job was finished—a good part of that was before the fire—I had seen Mr. Kino several times during that time, and knew him by sight—there was a hoarding about six feet high all round the premises, which opened on Southampton Buildings—there was a door is the hoarding in Southampton Buildings, locked with a padlock, by which you could go in and out of the excavation—I kept the key—that was the only way in or out of the place—the door was locked about 5.30, when the men went off work, and as soon as they went I had the keys—day and night there was always some one there, either the workmen or me—Kino's party wall was altogether down, and his place was boarded up at the back of the excavation—I never saw the hole they talked about; I never went in—on the Saturday night of the fire I was in

Southampton Buildings about 9.30, outside the hoardings—the gate was looked; I had the key—I looked up to the top of the hoarding, and saw smoke coming over it—I was standing right opposite the hoarding, on the other side of the way, in front of Bond's public-house—it is a very narrow turning; there is only room for one vehicle to go up or down—the smoke was coming over the hoarding next to the street—I went and undid the door, and looked in over the excavation, and saw smoke and flame coming from Kino's back shop—I immediately came out and locked the door, and went round to the front in Holborn to tell them what had happened—Kino's shop is four doors from the corner—I had turned to the right into Holborn, towards the City, and when I got to the third shop I noticed a man come out of Kino's shop towards Southampton Buildings—I met him face to face—he passed me, and went down the buildings, and I followed close on him—he stopped right opposite the hoarding in Southampton Buildings—I went behind him—I could easily have touched him—I heard him say "I hope the house will be burnt down"—two or three people were looking, standing about the same place where he was—he took no heed of me, he was taking so much notice of the smoke that he paid no attention to anybody that I could see—he stood looking at the smoke four or five minutes—his hair was rather light, and his complexion fair, his age about 32 or 33, and his height 5 feet 7 or 8 inches—he was dressed in dark clothing, with a tall hat—I heard him say nothing else, but he was muttering to himself as he walked along—he went towards the bottom of Southampton Buildings, nearest to Chancery Lane—he met another man two or three doors from Bond's public-house, opposite our hoarding, and 200 or 800 yards from Chancery Lane—that was a dark, shortish man, with black hair and dark clothes and a tall hat, but I only saw his back—they went down Southampton Buildings and into Chancery Lane—I watched them nearly to the bottom—the dark man turned, and I believe it was Kino; I came to that conclusion at the time—I did not meet a policeman, but if I had I should have followed him further—I made a statement to a policeman on duty the same night—I do not know his name—I believe he is dead—on the Monday morning I went to King's Cross Road, and made a statement of what had happened on Saturday night—I left a message for Mr. Ruffell, the foreman of the works, at the Blue Posts—I saw a statement in the paper this year which caused me to go to Scotland Yard, and on Thursday, 12th April, Inspector Boots took me to the House of Detention, and I was taken along in front of some open cells to see if I could recognise some prisoners—there were eight cells in a row—each cell door was open—I passed by with the deputy governor and two warders, and recognised Davis in the second cell the second time I walked down the row, as the man I saw saw coming out of Kino's shop on the night of the fire—Davis is the man.

Cross-examined by MR. CLARKE. It is two months since I was in any occupation—I left the police in 1857 on perfectly good terms with my superiors and with a gratuity, not a pension—I am not in the same employ as I was in 1877; I have been delivering circulars since—I was at Hoxton when J was in the police—I had been five months on duty at this hoarding and for two months afterwards—I went on duty again on the Monday, but I was relieved to go to King's Cross Road; I did not go to work on another job—during those months I saw Mr. Kino

two or three times, and if I see a man once I recognise him for some time to come—I have given evidence here many times—I used Bond's public-house occasionally; Kino's men did not use it that I am aware of—I know that there is a fixed point at the top of Chancery Lane—I wanted the constable there to assist me in keeping people down from the hoarding, but I could not find him; no doubt he was at the front when the fire was burning—I don't know his name or his number—I was told on 12th April at the police-court that the other policeman is dead; I don't know his name or his number—the man pulled the gate behind him when he left; he put on no padlock I am quite sure—he passed me too quick for me to tell him that the house was burning, but I followed him; he continued to walk sharp and so did I—I stood beside him four or five minutes while he was standing still—I can't say why I did not inform him that there was a fire at the back of the house—I did not shout out "Fire;" I spoke to Harrison, and also to one of his men, and said "There is a fire at Kino's "—the dark man came towards me and I saw his face, and firmly believe it was Kino—I had come to the conclusion then that the man who went down Southampton Buildings and said that he hoped the house would be burnt down had caused the fire—I am satisfied that immediately after causing the fire he met Kino in Southampton Buildings, and if I had met a policeman I should have told him—I know where Scotland Yard is, but I made no communication to the police till 22nd March this year, except to the night policeman on the beat—I did not write to Scotland Yard, it was no business of mine.

Cross-examined by MR. MATTHEWS. The men leave work at 12 o'clock on Saturdays to be paid—I went to the premises about 6 p.m., but did not go in; I was walking up and down in front of the hoarding—if the man had stopped in the street to padlock the door I must have seen him—I saw him push the gate to behind him—I am sure he had on a tall hat, not a billycock—he wore black clothes, and was dressed like a gentleman—I took particular notice of him, so that I might know him again—I cannot say whether he had a beard or not, but I think I should have noticed if he had one—the people at the hoarding looking at the smoke were not so close to him as I was; I was within a step of him—I did not say anything to him; he was very intent with the smoke, and I was very intent watching him—it was 9.30 p.m. in December, and I believe I had never seen him before and I did not see him again till he was at the House of Detention—I had read two or three accounts in the paper before I went to the House of Detention—I had read the evidence, but not the ages; Lloyd's never report that. (The witness's deposition stated: "I saw in the paper the ages of the two prisoners.") I signed that, but I don't remember saying it—I recognised Davis as I passed his cell, but I went on farther, as I had a curiosity to see the other prisoners—I knew the two men I had to identify were among the eight—I saw Kino's cell first, Davis's was the next—there were two lads of 18 and a man of past 60—I had been there three months before the fire—there were people living near the premises in Holborn when I first began the job—I believe they did not go away for a fortnight or three weeks.

Re-examined. I may have seen Davis before 29th December, 1887, but I cannot say—I should know him again 12 years hence—I was looking straight towards the door when I turned the corner, and just as I got to

the third shop he rushed out and slammed the gate in a hurry, and passed me sharp—if there had been a spring lock instead of a padlock, that would be the action I saw.

Tuesday, June 5th.

JOHN SHAW . I am Chief Inspector of the Criminal Investigation Department—on 22nd March I was in New York under instructions with regard to Kino—Detective Donovan, of the New York Police, brought him on board the ship, and I read this warrant to him. (Dated Bow Street, January 28, 1880, against Kino and Davis for arson.) I also received this extradition warrant. (Signed by the American Secretary of State.) He said he was not aware that there was a warrant for his arrest or he would have returned to London and met it, and that he should have been in England anyhow within a month or two, and he should give no trouble—I landed at Liverpool with him on April 1st.

Cross-examined by MR. CLARKE. I saw Kino's letter from Utah before I started from England; it was dated "White House, Salt Lake City. A. Podlake, proprietor. October 21, 1882"—I did not go to Utah; I communicated with the authorities there, and he was apprehended and brought on board ship in my presence—he had these four copper plates in his bag, and he told me they had never left him since he left England. (These were engraved plates of bill-heads for hit shops at Holborn, Cheapside, Regent Circus, and Newington Causeway.) Dunn, the detective, said in his presence that Kino had a shop in the Broadway, New York, in 1879—no other name was mentioned, in fact his papers show that he used his own name all the time. (MR. CLARKE here put in the lease to Kino, dated May 1st, 1879, of No. 179, Broadway, for two years, for tailoring business.) Communications are open between the police of London and the police of New York, and mutual assistance is given.

Re-examined. Portraits of Kino were issued in England—Dunn handed these papers to me and said in the prisoner's hearing that they were his papers—he made no remark—I read them and handed them to Roots—some of them are envelopes.

THOMAS ROOTS . I am an inspector of the Criminal Investigation Department, Scotland Yard—I first had charge of this case on January 29th—when I received the warrants I went to Newcastle and found Davis at 36, Granger Street West, in business with his father-in-law, Moses Kino, as merchant tailors—the two prisoners married Moses Kino's two daughters—I went again to Newcastle this year and found Davis there—I said "Are you Mr. Morris Davis?" and he said "Yes"—I said "Were you with H. D. Kino at 322, High Holborn?"—he said "Yes"—I said "My name is Roots; I am an inspector of polios from Great Scotland Yard, and I hold two warrants for your' arrest, one for setting fire to the shop, 322, High Holborn, and one for conspiring with Henry Douglas Kino to defraud the Northern and the Commercial Union Insurance Offices"—I wrote down what he said in his presence; he said "I was with Kino at 322, High Holborn at the time of his fire, but I know nothing at all about it. I was not there at the time the fire occurred, and did not know the cause of it"—I read that over to him, he did not sign it; I signed it in his presence—he gave me this letter and envelope and enclosure. (This was addressed "Private. Motet Kino, Esq., tailor, Granger Street, Newcastle-upon-Tyne," and the post-mark was "London,

October 11, 1882. "Dear Sir,—Please take notice of this, as it concerns you. I only assure you that it is sent to you in no way of malice or bad disposition by a friend." There was no signature; there was a portrait and description of a man stated to be H. D. Kino, who was wanted, and who would be probably carrying on the business of a tailor.) He said "This letter and woodcut, with a description of Kino, were received by me by post and opened by me"—the woodcut was a portrait of Kino, which had been issued several times to the police with numerous photographs—a larger sheet has been posted at every police-station in England and the Colonies, several times during the last three years, with this and several other photographs on it—it was not in New York officially, but I have given officers who were here photographs of Kino—I brought Davis to London—he was charged, and remanded till Kino arrived in London—on 12th April I took Prior to the House of Detention, where the two prisoners were—he was taken past eight cells, the doors of which were open—he passed by the whole of them and then spoke to me—I told him to go back among the prisoners again, and if he recognised any of them to go up and touch him—he went back to Davis, stopped in front of him, touched him, and said "That is the man"—he also recognised Kino, who was in the first cell, but made no remark about him—Davis was in the fourth or fifth cell—Moses Kino's private address was 27, Osborne Road, Newcastle—I saw him at another private address in Newcastle three years ago—on Saturday, 14th April, I started from Southampton Buildings, opposite the Blue Posts, at 9.30 p.m., walked to Chancery Lane, took a cab there, and drove to Newington Causeway to Kino's former shop, which I reached at 9.45—I stayed five minutes and drove back to the front of 822, High Holborn, reaching there at 10.3.

Cross-examined by MR. CLARKE. No inquiries from Scotland Yard were made before mine—police-officers were not employed in the matter till January, 1880—I obtained the likeness in February, bat it was not published, for certain reasons, till March—I do not think I ought to say who I got it from, as it might deter people from helping us. (The witness wrote down the name and handed it to Mr. Clarke.)

Cross-examined by MR. MATHEWS. Prior to going to America I read the informations on which the warrants were granted; they were laid by seven persons—I had no conversation with Davis when I saw him in Newcastle in 1880—I have ascertained that he went and set up there since, shortly after the trial, and has been there ever since till I took him in custody—I believed that I should find Kino there when I first went, but I found Davis; I had a warrant against him, but I did not attempt to put it in force or to speak to him—this letter is addressed to Moses Kino, the principal of the business at Newcastle, and it has been in Davis's possession from October, 1882, to January, 1883—Prior wrote me this letter before I saw him, and another followed it with my comments on the letter. (This was dated March 19, 1883, from James Prior to the witness, stating that he was watching at Southampton Buildings, and offering to give evidence; and in a second letter, replying to the witness, Prior made an appointment for the next day.) There had been an investigation before the Magistrate, and my name had appeared as inspector in charge of the case—Prior is wrong in stating that Kino was in the next cell to Davis.

Re-examined. I was directed not to arrest Davis before Kino was found, and I did not speak to him; a gentleman with me pointed him

out in the shop, and I also saw him in Park Road, Newcastle—I also saw an old man who I have no doubt was Moses Kino—I made no inquiry of him where Douglas Kino was. (The Letters found upon Kino were here read. One was from Davis, dated 12th November, 1882, to Kino, stating that Mrs. Kino had left his (Davis's) house four months ago, and was living in Manchester, and that his letters had been forwarded to her. Another Utter, without date, signed "Charlie," stated, "I know nothing of your wife. You must not write tome; I cannot answer you; you know the reason. Write to Jas. Rossdale, care of G.A. Kino, Westbourne Road. I will see him, and he will no doubt answer you." Another letter was dated 8 th January, 1883, and signed "J. Rossdale," to Kino, advising him to remain where he was, as a warrant was out against him for arson, and his photograph was, at all the police-stations. A letter from Kino to "The Chief of Police, London," dated from Salt Lake City, October 21, 1882, was also read, requesting information about his wife, Mina Kino, who was supposed to live with her father and sister, at 27, Osborne Road, Newcastle, as he believed she had never received his letters. A letter from A. Kino to Us brother, H. D. Kino, was also read, stating that he had sent him goods by the steamship Holland, stating the price, and giving him a credit for 500l.)

JAMES MANNING (Policeman E 317). On 29th December, 1877, I was in the police, and my beat was in Holborn, near Kino's shop—after the fire broke out I was called to stop against the door with a fireman for the remainder of the night—there was a fixed-point man nearly opposite, by Chancery Lane—Wooley, policeman ER 16 who discovered and reported the fire, is dead—I don't know what has become of the fixed-point man—I was there from 9.30 p.m. to 6 a.m., and saw Prior, the watchman, three or four times during that time—he made a statement to me at the time of the fire.

Cross-examined by MR. CLARKE. I called at the Treasury two months ago and made a statement to Mr. Thomas; I did not sign it—I was at Bow Street Police-station when the fire broke out—I went to the door at 10 o'clock as near as I can say, and stopped there till morning, and somebody else's beat was extended so as to cover the ground—he has lately resigned—Wooley was not my superior—I did not report the fire to the inspector—I made a note of it in an old pocket-book in pencil—I have got the pocket-book, but cannot find the entry, it is worn out; there are several leaves out of it, but I cannot say whether I tore it out or not—I made that with a view to his mentioning in his report if he thought proper—I did not attach much importance to it—I knew Prior well, and had had several talks with him.

Re-examined. He was perfectly sober—I never saw him the worse for drink the whole time he was there, and I saw a great deal of him—he watched the hoarding at the Blue Posts—I remember what was said to me that night, and I could mention it to the best of my belief, if I were asked.

By the COURT. I had been on that beat all the month; I believe I went there on the 5th—I did not pay more attention to one place than another—it is part of my duty to feel and try the different doors—there was a door at Eano's with a small brass padlock, and the door was some distance in; I could not reach it because I could not get my arm through the gate; I could get over the gate, it was about six feet high—there was a bar in the centre, a bar at the bottom, and a bar at the top—a man standing in the little recess could by climbing over the bars, get over the

gate—there was no blind hanging over the window, a little iron shutter round the side of the window was fastened to the look of the gate about four feet high, so that no one should fall against the plate glass and break it—there is only one door.

THOMAS RUFFELL . I live at Lansdown Terrace, Hackney Rise, and am a builder's foreman—in December, 1877, I was foreman to Messrs. Assherton and Lathy, who were rebuilding the Blue Posts in Southampton Buildings—on 29th December the old house had been pulled down, and we were excavating for the foundations—there was a hoarding about six feet high between the street and the front of the house—the gate was locked at night, and Prior the watchman kept the key—there was another wooden hoarding farther back against Kino's shop—after we had taken down the upper part of the party wall between the Blue Posts and Mr. Kino's, a hole about 18 inches square was made into Mr. Kino's premises through the wall, to get the timbers through for shoring, as it was necessary to shore up part of Kino's premises from the inside. (The witness here pointed out the positions of the wall and of the hole, on the model.) The hole was covered with beards at night and sometimes with an old door which anybody could remove and get in if they thought proper—they would have to remove the struts, but there was a watchman all night; the place was never left—I never heard of the hole being blocked up on the other side—I saw a great quantity of paper inside at the back part of the basement several times when I was there, up to a week before the fire—it was a very large heap; I should think two van-loads—it looked like used waste paper—on the Monday morning after the fire, about 10 o'clock, Kino came round from Southampton Buildings by the gate and said to me, "The old man has set fire to my place," meaning the watchman—I contradicted it; I did not believe it; I had employed Prior on other work and always found him honest, and I did not believe he was guilty of such an action—I do not remember Kino's suggesting then or at any time that any person had got in through the hole between the excavation and his premises—Prior had made a statement relating to the fire to me about 8.30 that morning, when I was engaged on a job at King's Cross—I went over the premises with the builder the day after the fire, but I cannot say what damage was done—I remember that there were some cases very much scorched on the ground-floor.

Cross-examined by MR. CLARKE. Prior said "There has been a fire at Mr. Kino's"—I said "What time?"—he said "About 10 o'clock," that he was standing outside, and saw flames and smoke issuing from the shop—I asked him if he saw any one near there—he said he looked his door, which was the door leading to the excavation, and went round to the front of Mr. Kino's shop, and when he got to the front door he saw tome one come out and go down Southampton Buildings, and meet several people standing at the bottom of Southampton Buildings, and apparently enter into conversation with them—I understood him to say that he saw the same party meet a gentleman after he left the men he had been previously speaking to, but that he could not recognise him—I am not clear as to Mr. Kino's words; it was that the old man had set fire, or might have set fire to the premises—I told him I did not believe it—I did not tell him what Prior had said to me—I believed what Prior had said, that a man had been seen to come out at the front of Mr. Kino's shop just at the time the fire broke out, and to go round and join other people in Southampton Buildings, but it was not my business to say that to Mr. Kino—I had no

particular reason for not doing so—I did not know him till he introduced himself to me that morning, but I may have seen him—I was in Mr. Kino's premises about a fortnight before the fire, daily, at soon as it became a question of dealing with the lower part of the premises—this hole was used by our workmen for going in and out, constantly—when I saw that part of the basement to which the hole gave admission the lumber and paper were all over the place, not arranged in any way; they covered the greater part of it—it was principally brown paper—it was not new—the hole was always boarded up at night, and the watchman would see that it was done—I was always the last to leave, and I always saw that it was done from the outside.

Re-examined. Prior is very respectable, and he is always sober—I had no particular reason for not mentioning what he said, to Kino—I might have forgotten it, and it was not a pleasant thing to suggest.

EDWARD BISHOP . I am foreman shop-fitter to Drew and Cadman—I produce the books and invoices of the firm, going back as far as October 1876—I was in their employ in October, 1876—here is an invoice of 24th October, 1876—I don't know whose writing it is in, but the book is in the handwriting of Mr. Hard, a clerk—he is in the business still.

---- STEPHENSON. I went into Mr. Kino's employ at Holborn in 1877, but remained only three or four months—I was there at the end of the year; at the time of the fire Davis was the trimmer, and was supposed to be the manager of one shop, as to opening it and closing it at night—he was supposed to be the first and the last there—in 1877, before the fire, an unpleasant smell came up, and some sawdust was put down in the basement, and I told Mr. Kino if it was left there it might take fire, and with that amount of wood and stuff that there was there might be a fire—the basement was filled with refuse of old wood and timber, made during the alteration of the premises, and waste paper and remnants—the sawdust was at the front, the Holborn end—the paper and woodwork was more particularly at the back—when I mentioned it to him he said something to the effect that "We will wait till we take stock at the end of the year, and we will have it removed"—I can't say whether it was in September or October—the first I heard of the sealskins was at the trial at Guildhall.

Cross-examined by MR. CLARKE. I was a salesman at this time—I was left in charge of the place by Mr. Kino while the stock was taken for two or three days down to the 29th December, Saturday, when the stock-taking was finished—that was the day the fire occurred—I left the shop at 10.30 that morning by Mr. Kino's orders, and went to the Causeway, to remain there assisting in the business till he returned there at 9 p.m.—I think Kino paid me there; I was not paid at Holborn—I cannot say if I had been paid at Newington Causeway before—no one ever paid me but Mr. Kino—I remained at Newington Causeway till the news of the fire came, and then I believe Kino and Davis went off together—I did not see them go off—Mr. Kino did not leave immediately the news came; he was counting the cash at the desk—I cannot say if he finished paying the hands, I Know he paid some of them—having finished counting the cash he left—I had been about four months in the employ—the premises were really remodelled before I went there—I could see the new work when I went, great alterations had been made—the rubbish produced in that alteration, and old packing-cases, and sawdust used in

cleaning the tesselated pavement, were in the basement—to take it away it would be necessary to bring it up through the shop, there was no opening at the back—the sawdust was damp and smelling, and I thought it might get over-heated and spontaneously set fire to the wood—I don't remember Kino mentioning the matter to me again between that time and the time of the fire—he did not find fault with me for not having removed it, he said nothing about it.

Cross-examined by MR. MATTHEWS. Davis also was at the Causeway when the news of the fire came; he was upstairs having his supper, though I was not aware of it till afterwards—I think I heard Kino say, "Go and call Mr. Morris," or something to that effect—he was fetched from upstairs—Kino used as a rule to take the keys and money to Holborn on the Saturday night and bring the keys back—Davis was the trimmer at Holborn—Kino engaged the clerks and shopmen and paid them—Coupland was stock keeper, and Baynes the clerk—I served in the shop, and in case of an emergency Davis would serve too, but his proper place was in the counting-house at the back—a boy was cashier—Munroe was cutter at Holborn; he is dead; he would give out work—I am not acquainted with the tailors, but I believe there was a man named Garfingel who was called Harris; I do not know him—my work was mostly in Holborn, and the rest of it in Cheapside—I should not know men who worked at their own houses—the Holborn men would have been paid there before they left; they are always paid at the shop they are engaged at.

Cross-examined by MR. CLARKE. I think it was very nearly 9 o'clock when Davis came in from Holborn—there was perhaps half an hour between his coming in and the alarm of fire—he came direct to me in the shop—I did not see him afterwards.

THOMAS GENT BAINES . I am now a gunner in the Royal Artillery—in the years 1877 and 1878 I was a clerk in Kino's employ, and from time to time I was at all his establishments—I was in Holborn at the time of the fire—I took all the stock-taking—we began before the 29th, but we began taking it down the first thing on the morning of the 29th—when we began entering the measurements of the stock they had previously been marked on tickets—each bale of cloth had on it a paper ticket of the length and price, and there were printed numbers on parchment labels on each piece, which agreed with the stock-book in which the particulars were put, and on the parchment labels were also the manufacturer's initials, which would correspond with the entry in the stock-book—then there was the stock-cutting book, which, if property kept, would show how much was cut off each piece on which the tickets were, and how much was left on each bale by deducting how much was out off from the original bale or piece—Kino called out, and I took down the particulars of the length and piece—Charles Ruesell was there to check me—I wrote in a book made up of some sheets of foolscap sewn together—this (produced) is one of the sheets—the first column is the number in the stock book, the second is the quantity by measurement, the third the price per yard, and the fourth the total value—I did not carry out the total value in my sheets—we finished taking stock on Saturday, 29th December, between 7 and 8—after some trouserings had been entered in the stock-taking 30 or 40 pieces were sent to Regent Circus on a barrow in the afternoon, by Mr. Kino's order—I made this invoice of them (produced); there was another as well—the invoice is

dated 29th December, 1877, and it is entered in this book on 29th January, 1878; they have put it a month forward—the amount of the invoice is 160l. 1s. 2d.—there were 14 sealskins, price 2l. each—they were entered in the stock-taking—I saw them after the fire, at Newington Causeway—I did not see them taken away, and how they got there I don't know of my own knowledge—I was to have taken the sheets home to work them out, but on the night of the fire Kino took them from me and said he would take them to Newington Causeway and get them carried on—Davis lived at the Holborn shop till about a month before the fire—the books were usually left in the office, but on the night of the fire the bought ledger, the paying-in book, and the cheque-book were locked up in an iron safe in the shop; I had never seen them locked up before—I was in the office on the second floor when the men began to go away—Davis called me, I went down, turned oat my light in the office, and passed through the show-room—there was no light in the show-room when I left, and I was the last person to pass through that floor—there was no smell of fire, or anything to indicate that there was anything wrong—the show cupboard was not capable of being locked; that was on the floor below my office—there was a light at the shop door when I left, and I believe there was one at the other end; it was the usual practice to keep a light till everybody went out, and then Davis locked the premises—I saw him lock the inside door and the outside gate that night, and Low, Coupland, Russell, and I went out together, and I think Sinclair—we all went together to Hennekey's wine vaults, nearly opposite, about 8,30 that was the usual time for closing the shop—Davis had the key at that time; he left Hennekey's in about 10 minutes or a quarter of an hour, and did not return—he was agitated when he left and his hands were cold and wet and soft—nothing had happened to cause him any agitation that I know—about three-quarters of an hour after he left, I heard an alarm of fire, and Day, one of our salesmen, went for Mr. Kino—in these stock-taking sheets, No. 2473, column 7, was 5 yards, and a 4 has been put in front of it, and now it: is 45 yards; besides that, 5 1/2 has been made 45 1/2; 2 1/2, 32 1/2; 2 1/2, 22 1/2; and 5 has been made into 15. (The witness pointed out a great many similar alterations.) Then in these original sheets, in columns 11 and 12, there axe about 60 items, 20 of which have been altered—the extreme of the pieces was 34 yards, no piece amounted to 3 figures, so they must take a figure which was only a unit or they would make the piece too long—that applies to trouserings particularly—in column 31, 5 yards has been altered to 65; there is no such length as that—Mr. Graham and I were employed to copy the sheets on the Tuesday after the fire—he died during the progress of the trial—we had not got the tickets, we simply kept the documents before us—a boy named Irving called the principal part out to us, and we took down what was dictated—these are the stocksheets (produced)—this is Graham's and this is mine—I do not know the object of keeping them; it is not a usual thing in stock-taking—we used only to make two copies—I went to the premises on 2nd January, after the fire—Kino was there, and I saw him give Mr. Rouch one of the fair copies which I had made, and Mr. Rouch made some notes on it—Mr. Dixon and Mr. Beecroft were also there—some bales of cloth were measured that day and found to be 10 yards short of the entry in the fair copy—Kino said that he could not account for it, but he afterwards

said that there was a pile of cloth in the showroom at the foot of the staire—Mr. Rouch said that the cloth could not have been cut off because the fixtures were full of cloth, and yet the pieces were that short—Kino answered that they had been cut off by the salesman—I was there on Thursday, the 3rd; Mr. Kino, Mr. Rouch, and Mr. Beecroft were there, and Davis was there part of the day—we took off the original parchment labels from every piece of cloth, and measured it afresh and put tickets on without any numbers—the original labels had the manufacturer's initials and the original length of the piece and the price—this is one of the parchment labels; they were tied on with string, but the tickets were pinned on—both tickets and labels were torn off on 3rd January by Kino's directions—Mr. Rouch objected to it, but Kino said that they were his own, and he would do as he liked with them—Mr. Rouch brought two men to measure them, but kino said that if they interfered he would kick them out—the labels were all torn off, and went into the dust heap I believe—this is the claim of 8th January—it is signed by Mr. Kino at every schedule—I know his writing—this envelope is Davis's writing.

Cross-examined by MR. CLARKE. I was not always employed at Holborn, only about fifteen months—I had nothing to do as a rule with the measuring and the tailoring part—I was a clerk on the second floor, that is the office, but I was about the place generally, as I had to see after all country work, and come down and see the books at times—I had to see the order-book, which was closed at 6 o'clock every evening; it was in the shop in the cashier's charge—I do not recollect his name—he is not one of the persons I have mentioned to-day—the alteration book was also kept in the shop; that did not affect the stock, but I had to keep an account of all alterations—the cheque-book and the paying-in book were kept in a small office on the ground floor at the back of the shop which Mr. Kino used, and the clerk who addressed wrappers fir the country used it—the safe was in that room—Irving was ordinarily employed with me on the second floor—he assisted me with the books—Mr. Belton, the accountant, kept the private ledger—he came once a week—the stock-book was in my charge—when a length was cut off a piece of cloth, it was entered in a small book, and was supposed to be entered in the stock-cutting book—it was my duty to enter from the small book the length which was cut off—the stock-cutting book contained the original lengths and prices, and if that had been properly kept it would have enabled Mr. Kino at any moment to ascertain the amount of stock, but at the time of the fire it might have been a month behind more or less—there was one book for all of them, and as they cut off a piece they were supposed to enter it into that book, and I used to send the lad who was under me down for it—I do not say that I had made entries in it for a month before, but sometimes we were a month behind—the small book was in the shop when the fire occurred; it was kept in the shop—I don't think I helped in the measurement, but I saw some of it done by Russell, Coupland, Sinclair, Day, Lowe, and some more—Davis was employed in it, and I think Stephenson—the pieces were unrolled and measured—I had told Kino several times that I had not time to keep up the stock-taking book—I don't know whether he blamed me—he came up to the second floor once or twice a day—he left at all times, he would have a cab and go round to all four shops, and

we never knew where he was or when we might see him—if he did not send for me in the evening I should not see him before he left—the books were never locked in the safe that I know of—Mr. Kino used to keep his things there, but the paying-in book and the cheque-book were always kept in the drawer of the desk—I mean to say that on this Saturday evenings the paying-in book and the cheque-book were left out, but on the night of the fire the bought ledger was looked up with them, but no others that I know of—I cannot recollect whether I had used the bought ledger that night—I saw it after the tire at Newington Causeway; all the books were taken there after the fire—nobody signed cheques but Kino—I did not look for his private cheque-book, but I saw it when looking for other things; it was in an unlocked drawer—I did not see the books put in the safe, but I saw Mr. Kino take them out on the Monday after the fire—he took out the private ledger at the same time—I am not aware whether he was there on the Sunday—Mr. Kino called out the tickets for some time on the Saturday, and I put them down in a book, and when he wanted to go away, Davis finished—it was the custom to send goods from Holborn to the other shops, and the regular course would be to put them first into the entering-out book, which would record the date, the quantity, the destination, and the value—these trouserings were entered in that book, and this invoice was made out and addressed with the goods to the manager of the Regent Circus business—the entering-out book remained in my room—taking all Mr. Kino's books together, there is evidence that these things were not at Holborn on Saturday night—I have seen 14 sealskins at Holborn—I know the number from the stock-sheet which is here—this is the entry—the stock-sheets are not in my writing—I put down the numbers as Mr. Kino called them out: he was in the showroom because they are put down as ready-made—I had seen the sealskins there several days before—I do not know whether I knew at the time he called them out that they were not there, but I knew it afterwards—if I had known they were not there when he called them out I should not have asked a question—I think they had been sent away—they were used for dressing the window principally, but when they were not in the window I generally saw them on a shelf in the showroom; they were never kept in a showcase—I worked at Regent Circus for about 12 months—I was last there 18 months or two years before the fire—I was about two and a hall years in Kino's employ—the one lot of sealskins were passed from shop to shop, invoices were given, and they would be returned—they were generally all at Holborn.

Wednesday, June 6.

THOMAS GENT BAINES . (Further cross-examined by MR. CLARKE.) The piece goods in the stock-book were taken first in the shop, they consisted mostly of trouserings; then the piece goods in the showroom, then the ready-made garments—Mr. Kino was present, and all the ready-made were taken down from Mr. Kino—some of the piece goods were taken down from Mr. Davis after Mr. Kino had gone—30 pages of piece goods were taken down altogether—I can't tell how many were taken down at Davis's dictation after Mr. Kino had gone—I believe Mr. Kino called out all the ready-made goods—the goods that were called over after Mr. Kino left did not take long; it might have been half an hour—after we

had finished I took away the sheets that had been written to carry out the amounts, and I should have done so, and completed it on the Monday—I did not expect to see Mr. Kino again till Monday—at that time I was living in Philpot Street, Commercial Road—Sinclair lived at Paddington, Lowe at Camberwell or Walworth, Day at Dalston, and Coupland at Chelsea—there was no usual time for our stopping at Hennekey's; we stopped there on this night till the alarm of fire was given—in consequence of that Mr. Kino met me that evening and asked me for the sheets, and I gave them back to him—it was on the Tuesday, I think, that Mr. Rouch was there—that was before I had taken down from Irving's dictation the account of the stock—I saw Mr. Rouch measuring pieces—at that time the paper tickets were on the pieces—Mr. Rouch compared the actual length of the pieces measured, with the lengths that appeared on the tickets, and he then said there was a deficiency in length—it was the fact that there was that deficiency—he asked Mr. Kino in my presence to account for it; Mr. Kino said that some must have been cut off—Mr. Rouch said they could not have been cut off, because the fixtures were full, and if they had been longer they could not have gone in—I explained to Mr. Rouch that the large pieces had been cut off in order to go into the fixtures—Mr. Rouch asked where the pieces were—I told him there had been a pile of pieces of that kind in the showroom—that was the fact at one time, but that pile was removed to Regent Circus on the afternoon before the fire—that was not the trousering, that had gone to Regent Circus and been included in the invoice—the goods in the pile were included in the invoice—they were cut off and put there after the stocktaking, to be sent away to Regent Circus—of course if you cut 10 yards off three pieces you could put another piece in—that was the excuse given to Mr. Rouch by me—that was true so far that Mr. Kino said those pieces were in the shop at the time of the fire—he wanted to make out that they were either burnt or stolen—Mr. Rouch asked where the pile was—I did not say anything to that—I knew that they had gone to Regent Circus, and that the entering-out book and the invoice that had been sent there contained the numbers of the pieces and the quantity so sent—I did not tell Mr. Rouch that; I was not asked—if Mr. Kino had wanted to tell him he could have told him himself; it was not my place to tell him—I was asked where they were, and I said "In the showroom in a pile "—I did not tell him where they were—Mr. Kino knew, why did he not tell him? in fact Mr. Kino told me to fetch Coupland to say they were in the showroom on the night of the fire, and they were not—I and Mr. Kino and Mr. Rouch were at that time together—I cannot tell you the words Mr. Kino used, but I was to tell Coupland that he was to say there was a pile of goods in the showroom when he left on Saturday night—Mr. Rouch could not hear Mr. Kino say that;—he came on one side to me to tell me—I have stated this before to-day—I have stated before "Mr. Kino said the bales had been cut short to make them fit into the fixtures; none had been cut since the stocktaking"—I have told the truth to-day—I tell you now that they were not cut, but I might have told Mr. Rouch in Mr. Kino's presence that they were cut, in answer to a question of his—they were cut at the time of the stocktaking—the stocktaking was not finished till between 6 and 7 at night, and the pieces were at Reagent Circus that same afternoon—I had not seen the sealskins on the day on which the fire took place; I am

certain about that—at the time Mr. Lovering, the trustee, was bringing an action with regard to this matter, I saw Mr. Rooke, his solicitor, or one of his clerks—I did not give him a statement in my writing of what I knew—this paper (produced) is my writing—I don't recollect giving that to Mr. Rooke or his clerk; I don't recollect who I gave it to; I gave it to somebody some time shortly after the fire; it was in January—at that time all these matters were fresh in my memory. (The statement was read to the witness.) Part of it is true, some is not; not that part which states that some of the pieces were without tickets—I don't think there were any without tickets; all the rolls had tickets on them; I swear that—none of them had any tickets on them on the second stock-taking—I said there were, to please Mr. Kino, in front of Mr. Rouch—he did not see them, and if you did not want him to see them you could easily pull the tickets off—I said "I went to Regent Circus for Coupland the stocktaker, and we tried to find one of the pieces, but could not"—that is true—we made a pretence to try and find what was not there; I mean one of the six quarter pieces, one of those that Mr. Rouch measured as haying been invoiced to Regent Circus—it is not true that on the afternoon of the fire I saw the box containing some sealskins in the cupboard in the show-room—they were never kept there—it was suggested to Mr. Rouch that they were burnt in the cupboard—I then said that I had seen them in the cupboard in the show-room on the day of the fire, and I got a piece of burnt glove and swore that was one—I told Mr. Rouch that that was part of the debris, but he would not have it—I don't think any one else was present at that time—I saw Mr. Rouch searching among the debris, and I went to help him, to see if I could not find the sealskin—I took down the account of the stock from Irving's dictation—at that time the original sheets which I had prepared were fastened together in the form of a book—business was not resumed in Holborn—I remained at Newington Causeway, not in a similar capacity; I was backwards and forwards to Holborn, and doing the Holborn books—I don't know what became of the book containing the sheets I had prepared, Mr. Kino had it—I never saw it afterwards in the form of a book—Mr. Kino afterwards gave me two sheets to add on to the second stocktaking, as an addition to the stock, leaving out the numbers—he did that at Newington Causeway—I don't know the date when the second claim was prepared—I don't know what became of the original sheets; I believe they are in Court—after I copied them I kept them in a drawer at Newington Causeway, in a private office that I was using—I believe eventually I gave them to Mr. Rouch—I can't say the date; I think it was in March—I can't say how soon it was after I was dismissed by Mr. Kino—it was about the same time—I was charged with drunkenness, and Mr. Kino had me locked up—I was bailed out by a publican there—at that time these two sheets were in my possession, in my pocket—I know a man named Apsy—I very likely told him that if Mr. Rouch had known I was locked up he would have bailed me out—I think 1 was fined 5s.—after the case was disposed of I don't think I went back to Mr. Kino and asked for a reference—he did not refuse to have anything more to do with me—I don't think he paid me—a man came up to me and said that I was not discharged, but Coupland was—I think I did go back, I am almost sure I went back to Mr. Kino's employment after that—I was not discharged at that time—I might have been discharged

a day or two afterwards, because I did not go there—I don't know that I was paid up to the end of the week; I don't think I was—I went and asked for my money, that was how I got locked up, because he would not pay me—I got locked up for making a disturbance; there, you have got it all now—I very likely told Apsy that I would not go until Mr. Kino had given me a reference—I don't say that I did, or that I did not; I have no recollection—I don't know whether Mr. Kino gave me a reference—I never asked him for one—he did not give me one—I then went to Mr. Rouch with the two sheets in which these alterations had been made—I was an omnibus conductor at one time after that; I am a soldier now, that's worse—Mr. Ellis was my employer—he did not discharge me for drunkenness; he did not discharge me for anything; he did not dismiss me—I swear that—he has got my licence now—I was an omnibus conductor two or three years, I then went into the army.

Cross-examined by MR. MATTHEWS. At one time Davis lived on the premises at Holborn—the tradespeople who supplied the family while he was living there had to pass through the shop—I never heard that Mr. Kino objected to that, and I don't know that that was the reason Davis ceased to live there; I don't know what the reason was—he then went to live at Peckham; that was about nine months before the fire—I don't know how long he lived at Holborn, it was only a short time—he did not stop long at Hennekey's on this night, only a few minutes—I very likely told the Magistrate that he stayed half an hour—it was about half-past 9 that we heard the alarm of fire—his manner was agitated, he was in a hurry, and I noticed a particular difference about his hands, and I remarked it to the others—he was flurried; I can't explain it, but you notice a thing in a man's manner without being able to explain it—his hands were wet and clammy, and he was agitated—this letter (produced) is in Davis's writing, I believe—I have seen him write lots of times—I don't know his wife's writing—I don't know whose writing this is (another letter)—this is not his handwriting, but I believe it is, by the signature; it is six years ago since I saw him write, and a man's writing may have materially altered in that time.

Re-examined. Mr. Kino was present when I made the statement about the cloth—I have shielded Mr. Kino on more than one point—I was not examined at the trial—I gave my proof to the solicitor—these eight sheets (produced) are the original sheets that I have been alluding to as forming part of the original stock-taking book; these are the two that were added to the second—the two columns 25 and 26 correspond with the original sheets a a—I have since been shown the stock-taking at Newington in June, 1878—this is it (c c)—the moneying out is in my writing—Coupland was discharged a day or two before I was.

By MR. CLARKE. When the second stock-taking was done, we worked all day and part of the night—Mr. Kino was there about an hour.

By the COURT. I went in and out of the little gate which opens into Holborn; that was fastened by a padlock and staple—I am sure there was a padlock—I could not say when that was put on—I think there had originally been a lock on the gate, I don't know; I should not like to say for certain, it is so long ago.

ARTHUR COOPER . I am one of the firm of Cooper Brothers, public accountants, and have carried on business for some years—in April, 1878, I was instructed under an order obtained in the action to investigate the

prisoner Kino's books—amongst others I examined the stock-taking of 1877; this (produced) is it (marked a a)—I heard described yesterday the course of practice in his business; it was correctly described—I have here an extract from the stock-taking book which I made at the time—I ascertained that it was the practice to insert Kino's own number against the goods, besides the manufacturer's number, which would correspond with the printed number in the stock cutting book—I can point out on this extract where these things are shown in the book—this is an exact copy of a portion of the book—there is the name of Ogilvie, which is the name of the manufacturer from whom the goods were purchased; 991 is Kino's number, that is printed in the book at the top of each column; 1493 beneath is the manufacturer's number, 43 is the length of' the piece, and the two letters there are the cost price; the numbers refer to the number of garments made and the amount used for them. (The witness referred to several other like instances.) The result is that the stock-taking book shows an excess of about 580 yards in 83 pieces—the effect of the alterations in the figures in Baines's sheet is to make 33l. and 20l. 207l. and 174l., an excess of 114l.—the first claim in December was for 888 pieces or 17,843 yards, value 5,112l. 12s., giving an average of 5s. 11 1/2 d. a yard; the second claim was for 940 pieces or 10,100 yards, value 3,367l. 9s., making a difference of 7,043 yards between the first claim and the second, and in money of 700l. 6s. 6d.—I should say as an expert that these two columns in the second claim are undoubtedly fictitions, because, excluding them, the number of pieces agrees within 10, one is 878 and the other 888—the amended claim is 2,666l. 2s. 6d.—I examined Kino's private ledger at Holborn, which has been destroyed, and from it prepared a balance-sheet ending December 30, 1877, from which the real profit appearing for the half-year was 676l. 11s. 7d.—I saw the private ledger at the inspection of books before the trial—for the whole year ending 30th December it dropped down to 136l. 4s. 6d., but that was based upon an estimate of the value of the stock—on the other side is put down, "By stock of goods, 3,557l. 14s. 1d. (The witness went into other figures which the Court considered immaterial.) I copied these figures from the private ledger, and I have got the original extracts which I made, from which this is compiled—this is copied by a stationer.

Cross-examined by MR. CLARKE. I saw Baines several times, but everything was obtained from the books—I did not go by what he told me—I got the number of yards from the invoices which Kino had retained—he was entitled to draw against his profits—the first half-year was about 600l. and the second 136l.—I do not think there was considerable expenditure for furniture, I think that was all charged to the building account: 117l. was charged to the profit of his account in respect of the alterations in the half-year ending 30th December, 1877—I believe all the alterations were made that year, which is borne out by 717l. being due to the builders—I did not charge that; he charged it himself-here is "By branch establishment, Cheapside, 86l. 12s.11d.—there was an account with each of the three branch establishments, and goods were sent backwards and forwards, and that is the balance of goods sent to Cheapside over those received during 1877—on taking the accounts between Holborn on the one side and the three branch establishments on the other, more goods had been sent from Holborn than had been received to the amount of 2,758l., but it does not follow that the

goods went that year, and cash might have passed between one establishment and the other—a large quantity of goods went from Holbon, particularly towards the end of 1877—I got the figures from the Holborn books—I do not think it has been suggested that there is anything wrong in the claim of 8th January, 1878, with the exception of those two columns which Baines says he copied—the claim was for goods made to order, and the greater portion of it was included in the previous columns of the stock account—the goods made to order amount to 133l. 12s. 6d.—out of 123l. 13s. 6d. it is suggested that about 25l. has been charged twice over—the original sheets were not carried out into money, but a great deal of the moneying-out has been tested—there are a lot of small errors—the items differ: 19 1/2 yards at 9s. 5d. ought to be 9l. 10s., but it is carried out 4l. 18s. 9d.; and 9 1/2 yards at 13s. 7d. is carried out 19l. 0s. 4d.—I have tested all the items; 11 are wrong in the first column and 10 in the second, but some are only 1d. or 2d. wrong; and the first column is 16l. too little; the second is only 1d. wrong. By the COURT. This is a ticket which would be put on at Holborn when this piece of goods came from Cheapside, and they would be entered in the stock-taking book—over that is put "Cheapside;" and the 20 yards is accounted for in the price—this other ticket I suppose would be the measuring for the stock-taking.

THOMAS GENT BAINES (Re-examined). Entry 2,470, 1,005l. 6s. 7d., is my writing—here is "Cause of return, not called for"—that was a suit of clothes ordered by Mr. Leon for 2l. 15s.—the man who made the entry numbered three garments as one article.

HENRY JAKES WALLINGTON . I am a porter—I had been in Mr. Kino's employ over 12 months at the time of the fire, and was so then—Davis was a trimmer, and used sometimes to act as manager in Mr. Kino's absence—about 11 o'clock, a day or two before the fire, I took some rolls of cloth in a cart from the Holborn shop to the Regent Circus shop by order of one of the salesmen—Sinclair, the packer, gave me an invoice—I do not remember taking other goods there—I think I only went once—I did not see the inside of the invoice.

JOSEPH COUPLAND . I was stock-keeper to Kino before the fire at Holborn—I was engaged in taking stock in December, 1877—my duty was to receive goods from the manufacturer, enter them in the stock-book, send them to the shrinkers, and receive them back—I remember 14 sealskins which were used to dress the window—I was at the stock-taking when they were called out and put in the claim, but they were not there—Day, the window dresser, inquired of me for them the day before the fire—I searched for them and could not find them—they were kept on a board in the show-room on the first floor; each was marked in ink on the back of the skin with separate identifying numbers in my writing—when they were called out at the stock-taking no identifying numbers were called out—I heard Day ask Davis where they were—he did not say at first, but afterwards he said that they were taken away by Mr. Kino in a cab to Newington Causeway—I saw them there a fortnight afterwards, 14 of them, and recognised them by my own writing on the backs—I made a statement to Mr. Hollams, the solicitor, in 1878—on the day of the fire, at about 6 p.m., I saw some rolls of cloth taken to Regent Circus from Holborn—invoices were sent with them—it was the custom to date the invoice on the day the goods were sent out—30 or 40 pieces

went in the cart, at prices from 3s 11d. to 5s. 9d., which is rather a high price for trousers stuff—on the Wednesday after the fire, Munroe, the cutter, fetched me from Regent Circus to Holborn—he has since died—before I started Baines also came to fetch me—we three went back on an omnibus, and found Kino and Mr. Rouch in the show-room on the first floor—Kino asked me if there was a pile on the floor—I said "Yes," and Kino, I believe it was, said that it had been either stolen or burnt—it was true that there had been a pile there, but it was removed to Regent Circus before the fire—it is not true that it was burnt or stolen—I went to re-measure the cloth on the Thursday, and was one of the party who were taking off the labels by Mr. Kino's instructions—Mr. Rouch came in and wanted to measure them himself, but Mr. Kino would not allow him—it was through Mr. Beecroft's order that the labels were taken off, but Kino instructed me—Baines, Wallington, Davis, and one or two others helped me to take off the labels—I don't think Kino took any off, but he was there and said that if Mr. Rouch persisted in measuring the cloth we were to throw the men out of the shop if they attempted to touch the goods—that was said in the men's presence—Rouch and his men then left—I and other men measured other pieces of goods left in the shop after the fire under Kino's instructions—to do that I had to unroll the pieces of cloth and examine them from one end to the other—none of the cloth was totally destroyed or burnt; none of it was very much damaged, and some not at all—I have been in the business eight years—not more than 5 or 10 per cent, damage was done to the piece goods at the outside—there was between 2,000l. and 3,000l. worth stock there at one time—I saw the show-case on the night of the fire—the sealskins were not kept in it; they were kept in. a box on the sideboard in the show-room—I was in charge of the show-room, and it was my duty to put out the lights there—I think Baines came down last, but the gas was out when I left—there was no fire there then, and no fire in the show-case the men left about 8.25—I took my hat and coat out of the case; it was a sort of wardrobe with glass doors and a cupboard in the middle—there were then on the floor of the show-case a few old boards, a pair of old boots, and a towel—two gas-lights were left in the shop, one near the door and the other at the end—they were brackets with globes round them—it was Davis's duty to turn out the lights in the trimming room—he locked the door and the gate, and I saw him put the keys in his pocket—the gate was fastened with a padlock, to two irons which were pulled together—I should give the gate a pull to see that it was fast—Davis was dressed in dark clothes; he had a small crop of whiskers, not quite so much as he has now—he. only stayed at Hennekey's five or six minutes—I thought he was rather agitated—I shook hands with him on leaving; his hand was cold and wet—I left Mr. Kino in March, 1878, because we had a little difference—Baines left about the same time.

Cross-examined by MR. CLARKE. I was not discharged, I left my work on Friday in the middle of the day, and absented myself—I went back on Saturday—Kino did not tell me when he paid me on Monday that he did not want me any more—I never asked him for a reference or character—at the time of the fire I had been in the trade three or four years, and with Kino about nine months—I do not remember the name of any one I was with in the tailoring trade before 1877, but in the drapery I do—when I left Kino I went to Mr. Davies, of Holborn—I am now in the

clothing trade on Holborn Viaduct—I have been in four employment since I left Kino's—I was a fortnight or three weeks at Regent Circus; there were sealskins there—I used to dress the window—I have also been at Newington Causeway, and saw sealskins there before the time of the fire—I kept them—I should say there were as many as 20; they were used to dress the window; some were cut up for waistcoats from time to time, and others were brought in—I was at Cheapside a week; there were sealskins there, but I cannot say whether there were two or 20—we received some at Holborn from Cheapside—when I went to Reagent Circus I believe there were two sealskins there, and then we received 14 from Cheapside—I entered them in the stock-book—the whole stock at Cheapside would appear in the stock-book—when the stock was taken at the end of December I had nothing to do with entering or calling out the figures, but I measured the lengths and pinned the tickets on the pieces, and I put the stuff away as they called it out—we went on half or three-quarters of an hour after Kino left, and the sealskins were the very last things that were taken—Kino left between six and seven, and Davis called them after that—after the fire the business was not resumed at Holborn, and some of the stock was taken to Newington and some to Regent Circus; some was taken after the second stock-taking, which was in the week after the fire, and some before—I think it was on the Thursday we began to measure, and Baines and I and others worked all night—Mr. Kino was there about an hour in the afternoon, and told us to go on, and not stop till we had finished; and we did stop and measured the goods honestly.

Cross-examined by MR. MATTHEWS. Sealskins have gone from one establishment to another, been entered in the books, and come back—there would be nothing wrong in sealskins going from Holborn to Newington in a cab, if they were properly invoiced; I should call them out to Baines to make an invoice, and when he had done so he would enter them in his day-book—they would be put in the stock-book at the next firm they went to—the sealskins which Davis told me Kino had taken away were in the store-room the day before—his time to come to Holborn was between 11 and 12 o'clock, and he left between six and seven—the business was not opened after the fire; not in Mr. Kino's name—the order to take off the labels came from Mr. Beecroft originally—he gave no reason for that to my knowledge—he spoke to Mr. Eino and we went by Mr. Kino's instructions, who said, "Tear all the labels off"—the goods had labels on them with the first measurements, which turned out to be inaccurate—the paper labels of the first stock-taking were still on the pieces when I went downstairs on the night of the fire—Davis was on the ground-floor, close to the counting-house, waiting for us to come down; he followed us out and locked the door while we were standing on the pavement—he did not go into the trimming-room to my knowledge, but it was only a few yards away, and my back was turned—I could not see whether there was any light in the trimming-room—the lights were left burning when we went out; they used to burn all night to enable the policeman on the beat to see into the shop—there is only one door from the shop to the trimming-room, but you cannot see it from the shop, a projecting shelf hides it—you would not, from the outer door see a light in the trimming-room, unless it was close to the window; if the gas was alight in the shop, but if it was out of course you would—

there is a window looking into the shop at the side of the counting-house, it has ordinary glass—the trimming-room has not another window looking on to the stairs, but there is a pigeon-hole where the workpeople pass their work through—a man coming downstairs could see a light in the trimming-room through that pigeon-hole.

Re-examined. A person in the street looking through the grating towards the back of the shop could not see any one go in or out of the trimming-room or see a light there—one of the lamps which was left burning was over the fixtures, and the other was on the wall; neither of them could have set the house on fire—the box containing the sealskins was taken away from Holborn, but I did not see it at Newington—I am quite sure that after the fire, some piece-goods went to Newington, not a very large quantity; the entering-out book will show—the largest quantity went to Reagent Circus.

Thursday, June 7th.

GEORGE DAY . I live at Dalston—I was Mr. Kino's second salesman in the Holborn establishment—there were some sealskins in the shop, and on the day before the fire, when I was dressing the window, they could not be found—I asked Davis what had become of them—he said "I don't know; you must find them; you must speak to Mr. Kino When he comes"—Mr. Kino came about 11 o'clock; I told him about the sealskins being missing—he said "It is all right, I have taken them away"—he didn't say where to—I never saw them again—on the night of the fire I left the shop with Davis, Copeland, Cay, Baines, and several others—we went to the wineshop about 8 o'clock—Davis was there with a about seven minutes and then left; and about three-quarters of an hour after that I heard a cry of fire—about three-quarters of an hour after that I went down to Newington Causeway, and got there about 8.45—I came back again with Davis—Kino told me to go upstairs and get Morris Davis and he would follow—I was called by Kino as a witness on the trial of 1878—I was in the shop altogether about three-quarters of an hour—I didn't see Kino do anything when the alarm was given—no engines or firemen had then arrived—I was about ten minutes going to Newington—I went in a cab.

Cross-examined by MR. CLARKE. I did not always dress the window—I did so about twice during the week of the fire—it was not dressed every morning—measuring and stock-taking had been going on on the Thursday, Friday, and Saturday, and there was a great deal to do—they were measuring and putting tickets on, and on Saturday the stock-taking was made up and put down—the window was re-dressed on that Saturday, or on Thursday or Friday—it was oh the Monday or Tuesday before the fire when I was dressing the window that I missed the sealskins—I had seen them there the previous week—there were 12 or 15 of them—it was either me or Mr. Davis asked Mr. Kino about them when be arrived—we were both together dressing the window—I certainly beard Mr. Kino say that he had taken them away; but I do not know whether I said so at the trial—the sealskins were usually kept in the show-room, in a show-case; and they were afterwards altered to the shelves—but my place was downstairs and not upstairs—they were, as a rule, kept in the cupboard, and when they were missed, Copeland looked in the show-case to find them.

Cross-examined by MR. MATHEWS. I heard Coupland speak to Davis about them—Davis said that Mr. Kino had taken them away in a cap to Newington Causeway—I usually kept my court and hat in the trimming-room downstrairs at the back of the shop—I remember fetching my coat and hat from the trimming-room on the night of the fire—I think the cutter was there then; I forget his name—Davis was standing close by—he had turned out the gas in the cutting-room—he had given over work and was waiting for the rest of us to come down for us all to go out—the upstairs men were all waiting—there were no more men in the cutting-room that night but Davis and the cutter—the rule was when Davis left that he took the cash to Newington Causeway; and he left us as usual on that Saturday evening for that purpose—when I got to middle of his supper—he did not live there, but he generally supped there on Saturday nights—when I told him what had happened at Holborn he jumped up and came away with me in the cab, and we both got back as fast as we could.

Re-examined. I was subpcenaed by Kino on the trial before Lord Coleridge, but cannot recollect whether I was asked about hearing Mr. Kino say he had taken away the sealskins in the cab—I was asked certain questions and gave certain answers, but I was not asked to say all I know—before the men go away at night they undress the window and cover the things up from the dust, but window is not re-dressed every morning—it is left bare one evening in order to be cleaned next morning—it was the gas under the shelf in the cutting-room which Davis turned out—the bracket moves backwards and forwards—Davis worked at that shelf—I saw him turn it out so that the room was completely in darkness—Davis was supposed to be the manager when Kino was not there—I never knew him engage or discharge a man or buy anything for the firm.

By the COURT. I did not dress the window the morning before the fire; it was three days before—it was not dressed on the morning before the fire, I am positive—I have seen the skins on a shelf in the show-room and in a square box which was kept on the shelf—that is as you go up the stairs on the left-hand side—I last saw them on that shelf three or four days before the fire—the place of keeping them was altered about two months before the fire—it was about three days before the fire that Davis said Kino had taken them to Newington Causeway—he said that after Kino had come to the shop—I don't remember any other gas except the chandelelier; that was out, and the last thing put out was the light on the shelf—that is left burning till the cutters are all going—as a rule the men go over to Henekey's on Saturdays—Davis did not always go with us, but he did as a rule—we used to drink and smoke there and stop about 10 minutes, but that being the night before New Year's Night we stopped a little longer—Davis said "I must be off, because Mr. Kino wants me at the Causeway"—when I got down to the Causeway I called out for Mr. Kino—I saw him in the office and said "The Holborn shop is on fire;" he said "You had better get Morris to go with you back to Holborn, and I will follow"—he said nothing else—Davis was upstairs in the drawing-room, having his supper; several other people were there at supper—I said to Davis "You have got to come back to the Holborn shop, the shop is on fire;" he was rather

upset about it—he made some remark, but I can't say what, and we went back together—I had seen the smoke coming out of the second-floor window as I passed in the cab, and the engines were coming up when I started, but I did not go round to the back—no question was put to me at Newington Causeway as to where I had seen the fire.

ISAAC ROUCH .I am assessor of losses for various insurance companies, and amongst others the Great Northern and the Commercial Union—my office is at No. 7, Victoria Street—I acted for both these offices at the fire at Regent Circus in October, 1877, and afterwards at Holborn on December 29th—they were both at Mr. Kino's establishments—the amount of claim at Regent Circus was about 206l.; and it was settled at 104l. or 105l., and paid to Mr. Kino—I had one or two interviews with him—we discussed the business; and I first went to the Holborn premises on 31st December, between 11 and 12 o'clock—I saw Kino, and went over the premises with him, and made a cursory inspection of the stock damaged—we went down to the basement, and I found the staircase between the ground floor and the basement very much burnt—we had to go very cautiously in consequence—this model properly describes the position of the stairs—these stairs were very nearly burnt away—on reaching the basement I saw the remains of a large body of fire—it was a mixed lot of rubbish, paper, like old builder's rubbish, from 12 to 20 feet long, and six or eight feet broad—it was more at the rear of the basement—we then went up to the trimming-shop, where I saw a shelf much charred, evidently from the effects of a gas-burner being thrust under it—the gas-burner was attached to the glass partition between the trimming-room and the shop—it was moveable; there was one single joint—any person working in the trimming room would work towards the shop in order to get the light, if he was working at the counter—there were three or four shelves on which buttons and other things were stored—the shelf was about the level of a man's head, and the gas-joint had been turned round and put under it—from the trimming-shop we went to the ground floor, where there was a cupboard with a glass door to it, the interior of which appeared to have been burnt out; but the fixtures on either side of it had escaped—I looked round to see if there was any connection with any fire which might have been below the cupboard, but could find none—I asked Kino if he could explain the cause of the fire or fires—he said "Do you suspect me?"—I said "I suspect no one; but you must recollect you had a fire a month or two ago; now a fire here; and possibly a month hence you might have one at one of your other branches, and is it not proper to inquire into these things?"—I don't think he made any reply—I said "Well, it is very fortunate that the damage is but small in this case"—he said "Do you call 3,000l. small? I took stock on Saturday; it was worth 6,000l.; and I consider my damage 50 per cent."—I said "You will have to make out your claim in the ordinary way"—he said "My stock-taking will be my claim"—that was all that happened—I then left for that day—the fire was confined to the three floors I have mentioned—there was no fire at all or anything burnt on the ground floor—I took a cursory look round—saw that there was absolutely nothing of stock burnt in the shop—on the ground floor, of course, there was no damage, because the fire had not gone through the shelf; and in the basement no stock was kept—the goods above the shelf were not injured, or only injured by smoke—the

chief damage was by water—next day, Tuesday, 1st January, I went again about the same time, and met Kino, who said "Have you come to settle my claim?"—I said "You have made no claim yet"—he replied "I told you yesterday that my stock-taking was my claim"—I said "You must let me have a copy of it, then,' and he then and there instructed one of his clerks to prepare such a copy—he also wrote me a letter, making the demand for 3,000l.—that letter was produced at the trial before Lord Coleridge, and a copy was made of it and used by Counsel—I have looked for the original—I handed it to Messrs. Hollams, Son, and Coward, and have not seen it since—this (produced) is a true copy of it (read)—when I got back to the office I wrote this reply, requesting him to furnish me with a detailed statement of his claim—he gave instructions to a clerk to telegraph to Beecroft on the same day—Beecroft is a person who was passing Holborn and saw the signs of a fire and left his card in Kino's shop; he is a draper value—Kino said "If you don't settle to-day it will be so much the worse for the companies, because I shall shut up my shop and shall claim for consequential damages"—I said "Your demand of 50 per cent, is simply preposterous, I consider the damage already done much nearer 6 per cent."—next day, Wednesday, 2nd January, I went again and was introduced by Kino to Beecroft, and Kino then and there handed to me a copy of the claim, or a copy of the stock-taking, which he said was his claim—he said "This is my stock-taking, this is my claim" (a a)—he was anxious that I should proceed then and there, but the document being rather voluminous I said I would take it with me for a little while and look over it—I recognise this copy by my own figures—I took it with me and agreed to call on Kino again in about two hours' time, which I did, with Mr. Dix, a cloth warehouseman in the City; he is a buyer to Stephen Evans, mantle maker, of Old Change—I then found Mr. Kino, Beecroft, and a number of people on the ground floor—Beecroft drew my attention to a piece of cloth which was alleged to be damp or injured by water, to my mind it was not in the slightest degree touched, and I said "I think you have made a mistake, that is no water, and that is no damage"—Kino and his friends joined in trying to impress on my mind that there was great damage done, and to avoid any disturbance I suggested to Beecroft that we should go up on the first floor—I might have seen Davis on either of these three days, I did not know him then, I don't remember seeing him, he may have been there, I have never spoken to him to my knowledge in my life—we were accompanied by Mr. Dix to the first floor—I suggested to Beecroft that we should take haphazard from the fixtures certain pieces of cloth, which we proceeded to do, each piece being unrolled and measured in our presence—(Kino was not present at the early part, he joined us subsequently)—as each piece was taken from the shelf I looked at the parcel labelled for the number, and then sought for the corresponding number in the claim and compared the length of the piece when measured by Mr. Dix in our presence with the measurement as set down in the claim, and I marked opposite each item in pencil on the claim, which marks I afterwards put in red ink in my office, and they are now on this claim—there are only 10 pieces altogether, and there is a difference of 10 yards in each piece, altogether about 100 yards—there was really no damage to those pieces, they were on the first floor, the damage by water was principally on the

ground floor—having gone through these pieces I said to Kino "We have been going through these pieces and such and such results have ensued, can you explain it?"—he seemed very much disconcerted—he replied "I know they were all right on Saturday night"—I said "What has become of the deficiency, then?"—he replied "They must have been stolen"—I said "By whom?"—he said "By your firemen"—I said that was absurd, and pointed out that the pieces fitted accurately into the fixtures, and of course if anything had Seen taken out there would have been a space—he then said "Oh, I now recollect that some pieces were cut off, some 10 yards lengths were cut off and were placed in a heap in the show-room"—I said "What has become of the heap?"—he replied "They must have been burnt"—I said "Where are the remains?" and he appealed to two of his men, Baynes and Coupland, and they confirmed his statement—I then said that the matter had assumed a different aspect altogether, and I should not go on with the list that day—at Mr. Beecroft's request I met him at the Cathedral Hotel, St. Paul's Churchyard, next day, Thursday, the 3rd, with Mr. Dix, and we had a long conversation—later in the day, after I returned to my office, one of the salvage men from Holborn came to me, and in consequence of what he told me I called at Starbuck's, the packers and sworn measurers in Knightrider Street, and got two men from there, who accompanied me to Holborn, where I saw Mr. Beecroft with Kino surrounded by his men, pulling down the pieces of cloth from the fittings and cutting off the parchment labels that were fastened on with string—I expostulated with Mr. Kino and pointed out that by so doing he would render it impossible for me to check the claim by the stock, because the identity of the pieces was destroyed, and that such a course would practically render the adjustment of the loss an impossibility—he replied "I shall do what I like with my own property"—Mr. Beecroft said "Mr. Kino is acting under my instructions"—I told Mr. Kino that by taking off the tickets he would certainly get himself into trouble—I also asked him what object there could be in measuring the cloth when it had been so recently measured as the preceding Saturday—be said he would take care that it was now measured to an inch—I told him I had brought two sworn measurers, and suggested that they should be permitted to measure the cloth in our presence, and that he might select if he liked 50 or 60 pieces himself taken haphazard—he said that the men I had brought should not touch it, and he gave instructions to his men to throw them out if they interfered, and I believe there was some further talk of breaking of necks—upon that, I and the men went away—I think Davis was there at the time this was going on—I should not like to swear that he was, but I believe he was—I know Mr. Kino's writing—this is his signature to the claim of 8th January (b b)—it was sent,. I believe, to the Commercial Union, and they sent it to me—towards the end of January I and some other gentlemen went through the whole of the stock, and examined every piece; I think Mr. Dix was there, and Mr. Brown, of the firm of Brown and Collumber, and a man named Milnes—the result of our examination was that there was but little damage—a very large portion of the cloth was undamaged by either fire or water, in fact there was not a particle of cloth in the place burnt at all; a comparatively small quantity was slightly damp; that has reference to the piece goods—some of the ready-made goods had been wet and had shrunk—the various estimates of

damage in consequence of the fire ranged, I think, from 5 to 10 percent.

Certain portions of the evidence of the prisoners given on the trial in the queen's Bench were read, also the police report of the fire.

Witnesses for Kino's defence.

JAMES HENRY BRANCH . I am clerk to Messrs. Hoare and Son, tailors, in Holborn—in October, 1877, I was in Kino's employment at Regent Circus as clerk, and had been since July, 1876—I recollect the fire at Regent Circus in October, 1877—it arose through gunpowder—I never saw it—I heard an account of it—Franklin and Lea were there at the time—it was in the basement, of which the cutting and trimming. room is part—I went downstairs and found the door shut, and Lea and Sullivan holding the door outside; I could not go inside because the smoke was too dense—I said, "What is all this about?"—from the smell of the smoke I judged that it rose from brown paper—the smell made its way up through a window above, and a crowd collected—Kino was not on the premises—I said, "Send for him"—this was about four or five p.m.—I recollect hearing of the fire in Holborn—on that day a quantity of trouserings were sent to Regent Circus from Holborn—it was my duty to take possession of them—this alteration from 29th December, 1882, to January, 1878, is in my writing—I made it because we were stock-taking on 29th December, and the goods arriving on that day would not be included in that stock-taking, and the invoice would go into the books for the January account—if the goods came in that night they would not be stocked that night, it would be postponed till the Monday or Tuesday—Mr. Kino came to the shop on 29th December about 7.30 p.m., his usual time, to the best of my belief, and left about 7.45 or 7.50, his usual time, before we closed—since he has been brought from America on this charge I have had no opportunity of speaking to him.

Cross-examined. I saw this invoice with the alteration this morning in Court—I have not seen it from the time I made it till then—my attention was not called to it at the time of the trial when Kino was plaintiff—I was not called; I was at Colchester—I have no memory of altering it—I can swear it is my writing—Mr. Morris asked me three or four days ago if Mr. Kino was there on the night of the 29th—I remember that night particularly, because on the Monday morning when X arrived at the warehouse I heard of the fire—there was no conversation about what time Mr. Kino had been there on the Saturday night—McKenzie, the manager, made the remark that Kino had passed down Regent Street—that was the way he always went—I said "Mr. Kino could not have been at the fire, because he went down Regent Street"—I was not at the Lord Mayor's Court at the trial about the insurance after the Regent Circus fire, nor in the neighbourhood waiting to be called—I had no subpoena—I was not aware it was going to be tried—I was in the court-yard for a very short time—I was not going to prove anything—I had never been in the basement before, and did not know what was there—I did not know of any stock being kept there, and I do not suggest that there was any—I swear that after the fire I and others did not drag some of the stock through water to make it appear that it had been injured, nor did others in my presence—I saw a heap of vests and trousers which

they said had been damaged by water tying in the corner, but I did not see the water poured on—it was not poured on in my presence—I cannot remember when I saw this heap; it might have been the next day—I could not see what was damaged that night because of the smoke, and it was getting dusk when the firemen were there—the fire was confined to this place alongside the basement; the door was shut—the cutting-room is at the back—I was in the cutting-room every day—I was never in the place where the fire was in my life—I told them to open the door because I wanted to see what was the matter—I flung a bucket of water down, and it went over one of the salesmen who was below at the door—he had opened the door after I told him to; he was afraid at first—I was obliged to run away—I did nothing else to put out the fire—after the claim was settled Mr. Kino said that we had been put to some trouble and upset, and as he had the sum of 104l., and did not want to make any profit, over it, with regard to the money over the even money, he said "Take this money, McKenzie, and give them something each—I was at Regent Circus some little time after this, I cannot say how long, till the place was transferred to A. M. Kino, I believe—I was in Mr. Kino's service at the time of his liquidation—I left in November, 1878—I cannot remember how long after that the trial was—I saw the trial of Mr. Kino's action against the Insurance Companies in the papers—I may have seen an account of that alteration in the invoice in the newspapers, I believe I did, but nOt particularly—I was not asked to come forward and say how and why I had done it; I knew there was nothing wrong in the matter—I was at home at the time at Colchester attending to my father's place—I will swear I don't remember whether I was in communication with Kino's solicitor at the time—I don't remember going before a solicitor for him to take my proof—I don't think I was in communication with anybody on the subject—at the other action before the Recorder at the Lord Mayor's Court I went out of curiosity, because the other men were there—I believe it was after I left—I spoke to Kino in the yard when he came out from that trial—I believe I saw him about a day after at the Cause-way, he said he was going away to Birmingham, Manchester, Newcastle, or some of those places, I don't know which he said; he did not tell me, and I did not ask him why—he did not tell me he was going abroad.

Re-examined. I knew afterwards that Mr. Kino did go to Birmingham; he wrote to me from there—McKenzie is dead—Franklin and Lea were employed thereat that time—after the claim was settled by the insurance company, Kino said the odd money, about 4l., might be divided—I think I had 6s. or 7s.—in preparing the claim Lea called out the things, I think, and I wrote them down—after I left the Regent's Circus shop I went to the other shop, Newington Causeway, and remained in his employment there till November, 1878, and then went home to my father, a farmer at Colchester, and have been there until the last two months, when I have been in the employment I am now in—since November, 1878,1 have not seen Mr. Kino or any of his family—I was communicated with about this by Mr. Morris about three weeks ago—the engines did not come to the fire at Regent Circus; the firemen put it out with buckets—immediately the door was opened smoke filled tae cutting-room—I ran back upstairs—some water was being brought by one of the men, and I took it and said "Look out, Franklyn," and threw it over the cutting board, and it went over him—Kino paid the hands at Regent

Circus every Saturday evening—nobody else paid them there—he was there on the 29th as usual.

JOHN LEA . I am a salesman at Birch Brothers', tailors, 52, King William Street—I was in Mr. Kino's employ at the Regent Circus shop at the time the fire broke out—Sullivan set light to some gunpowder in a vault under the street—the moment it exploded the door leading from the basement into the vault was closed, and we went to tea—while we were at tea a message came that the shop was filled with smoke—we immediately went back, and at that time the firemen had come—I did not see any fire—I saw Franklyn use water—two or three others and, I think, Branch, used some—Kino was not there at the time; we telegraphed for him—there is telegraphic communication between the different shops.

Cross-examined. I think it was Sullivan suggested we should make the experiment to show the effect of gunpowder—Wilson, a trimmer, got it—it was put into an old ink-bottle, and then a train was laid from the bottle to the door, and Sullivan fired the train and closed the door, and there was a slight explosion—I heard it—I don't think any one outside could have heard it—it was only two or three pennyworth—we were slack—there was nothing doing, and we got up to some tricks—there had been a talk of playing off a joke on one of the clerks and putting some gunpowder under his chair and blowing him up—there was no chair in the vault—this was a preliminary experiment—there was old rubbish in the vault and sawdust and paper, and there might have been some broken wood—I think we used to throw the broken boarding down there at times—it was dark—there was a place in the ceiling where they used to put coals down, I think—there was no stock in it—I don't know what was alleged in the claim—I know there was a claim made for stock—I know stock was injured by water; I don't know how—I had to collect it together from the floor of the cutting and trimming room—the water would have to be conveyed from one end to the other—the experiment was between 4 and 5 o'clock—we had our tea about 5 o'clock—when I came back a lot of water was being thrown about by the staff and the firemen—the place was so thick with smoke you could not see what was what—I did not see anybody throw water over any stock.

Re-examined. I have been in Birch's employment about 12 months—early in 1878 Kino sold the shop to his brother, and I then left—from that time to the time I was called on with regard to this matter, I hare had nothing to do with Mr. Kino or his people at all—I was subpoenaed on the trial before Lord Coleridge, but I was not called—I did not tell Kino about the bottle and the gunpowder—I have heard that Stevenson is in a tailor's shop in the Brompton Road—I have not seen him for years.

GEORGE FRANKLIN . I am assistant to Fisher and Son, tailors, Fen-church Street—in 1877 I was in Kino's employ at Regent Circus—I remember the fire—a party, I think Wilson, brought some powder one morning—we did not exactly know what to do with it—we opened the door of the cellar under the pavement in the front of the shop, and set light to it there—I then went to tea, and while in the coffee-house some one came round and said the place was on fire, and we went back to the shop and found the place was full of smoke—the door of the cellar had been opened—there were no firemen there then—I tried to put the fire out

with water which we got from the basement in a line with the door of the cellar, and threw it into the cellar—the cellar and cutting and trimming rooms were on the same level—I went for the firemen, and they came and threw more water—the water saturated the whole of the basement—there were a lot of cloths hanging up there—I could not say if any goods were wetted—I telegraphed for Kino and he came about half an hour afterwards—I did not tell him about the gunpowder.

Cross-examined. It was perhaps a week ago that I first told anybody about the gunpowder—I don't know to this day that Mr. Kino knows about it—Sullivan set the gunpowder alight, I believe, with a wax taper—there was about an ounce—the bottle, which was a threepenny or four-penny ink bottle, broke—nothing was burning to my knowledge when I left the cellar; it was merely old brown paper and shavings and saw-dust—the bottle was laid on its side, and the gunpowder came up to the mouth—it was a long bottle—the mouth was in the centre of it—I should think the train was about four feet—this paper is Branch, the clerk's, writing, as nearly as I can recollect.

JAMES HENRY BRANCH (Re-examined). I made out this claim (produced) against the Insurance Company for 206l. 3s.—it is all my writing except these notes—I was there when the insurance officer came to inquire; Kino was there too—I did not hear him say that the stock or any part of it that was damaged had been accidentally put into that cellar—I did not hear him asked how the stock came to be damaged—I don't know where these white vests were at the time of the fire; they were in all parts of the house—they were all damaged by water.

WOLFE COWEN . I am a tailor at 4, Mitre Square, Aldgate, and was formerly in Mr. Kino's employment at Newington Causeway—I did not work in the shop—I did work and took it there to be paid—I remember hearing of a fire in Holborn—I remember going to get paid on the Saturday it occurred; Mr. Kino paid me at halt-past 8 in the evening at Newington—I heard of the fire the next day.

ARTHUR COOPER (Re-examined). The numbers and items said to be short are not confined to the items which are alleged to be altered; they were taken indiscriminately from the claim, and had no reference to the numbers in which alterations had been made—at the time I did it I did not know of alterations—the same thing extends to the invoices of goods from Cookland Dale.

Witnesses for Davis.

JANE SPENCER . I live at 17, Red Lion Passage, Holborn—I was four years in the service of Mr. and Mrs. Kino at Newington Causeway—I was then single—I knew Davis, he supped there nearly every evening—I was general servant, and had to cook the supper—the kitchen was on the second floor—he took his supper in the dining-room, which is on the third floor—Mr. Kino never sat down to supper with Davis—Davis took his supper at 9 o'clock, and Mr. and Mrs. Kino supped together—I saw Davis there from 8.30 to 9 on the night of the fire; he was there for supper—I had to get supper by 9; it was always served at 9—I remember Kino calling up from the show-room, which was on the second floor, "Davis! the shop is on fire in Holborn!"—Davis and Mrs. Kino ran down—Davis took his hat, and that was the last I saw of him—I have seen some keys there labelled "Holborn;" I have picked them up before they went to business off the bedroom floor and the dining-room floor.

Cross-examined. I cannot say whether it was a bone, a tin, or a parehment label—it was my duty to brush the room—I cannot say whether I found the keys 12 months or two years before the fire—I have given them to the mistress, and she has called Mr. Kino to receive them—I have not picked them up a dozen times—I understood that Davis lived at Peckham with his wife and one child—I should say he was at supper about half an hour that night—it was punctual at 9 that night, and the same every night except Sundays, when they dined between 6 and 7—they supped punctually at 9 on the Friday night, and I believe Mr. Sampson was there, but I am not positive—Kino always called the other prisoner, Morris—when he called upstairs I cannot say whether he called "Morris Davis" or "morris," but I think it was "Morris."

Re-examined. I am certain that Davis had supper at Newington Cause-way on the night of the fire—I took the supper in, and then went back to the kitchen—I did not know whether Davis had done supper, or whether there was any one in the room except Mrs. Kino—the people employed in the house did not have supper—my name was then Jane Munday—I was with the Kinos till they went to Birmingham—I don't know the date—I went there with them, stayed a week, and then came back to London—I married, I should think, 15 months after that—I have been married three years—my husband is a porter, employed in London—I have had nothing to do with the Kinos since or with Davis.

By the COURT. Kino generally supped there with the rest of the party, but if Davis was there he did not sit down—Davis did not stop to supper every night, but he generally did—I don't know whether Kino had had any supper on the night of the fire, I only heard his voice—there were not two suppers served.

HARRY GARFINKEL . I am a tailor—in December, 1877, on the Saturday of the fire, I went to Kino's shop for some work—about 10 yards before I got there I saw Mr. Davis lock the outside gate, and saw several gentlemen, five yards off, crossing the road—I asked Davis whether I was too late, or whether he had got any trade for me; he said I was too late, but told me to wait a few minutes till he came out of the public-house—I saw him go in, and he came out in six or seven minutes, and said "It is very slack to-night; I have not a coat to give you to be made; I am going down to Newington Causeway, and if you like to come with me I will see if I can find you a job there"—that was in Holborn, right opposite Mr. Kino's shop—we went just a little bit higher up, and then we crossed the road and took an omnibus at the corner of a street I can't tell the name of; we got out at the Elephant and Castle and went to Kino's shop in Newington Causeway—he left me in the shop and went a little higher up, to the governor, I think, and came back and said "You will just go out again; round the corner you will find a little court; go to the first door and you will find a little room and a lot of 'hands' sitting"—I went there, and Davis came and spoke through a little window, and two coats were passed by another man through a pigeon-hole to me, to make by Monday morning, and I made them and gave them to the cutter at the same place at 10 o'clock—some of the Hands then said that there was a fire, and the Holborn place was burnt down; that was the first I heard of the fire—I asked the man who gave me the coats if it was true; he said "Yes, you have no occasion to go there, we will find you a job here"—I worked there about

three months after that Saturday—since then I have been working for Mr. Groves in the New Cut—on 27th May this year I heard that this trial was going to happen, when I was at a benefit for a poor man, of which this (produced) is the circular, and of my own accord I sought out the solicitor for the defence—I have had no communication with Davis since I left.

Cross-examined. I had had work before from Mr. Kino, first at Cheapside, then at Holborn, and then at Newington Causeway—I never worked at Newington Causeway till I went in the omnibus with Davis, but I did afterwards, and the work was given to me through the little hole—no paper of this sort (produced) was given to me to sign—I never saw a paper of that sort used—there was always a paper, but not like this—the workman's name was not on it; I swear that—I cannot tell whether the date was on it, because I cannot read or write—I mean to swear that; I wish I could—work was given out every day in the week, including Saturday, but not on Sunday—I was always employed on coats, and made them at home and took them back—I went into Kino's house on this night and saw him there—Davis spoke to him and then told me to go round the corner—a lot of boys, girls, and men were there, but no one who I can name; they might have seen me—I might know the man who gave me the work through the hole, if I saw him again—I was there three months, but I was not six times in the place—I understand that it was Mr. Maynard or Monard who gave me the work—I don't know how he was able to know to whom he had given the work—I did not see him make any entry—he gave me a paper partly written and partly printed, with the coat—I took part of it back, which was the check, and kept a little piece with the price I was to be paid for it—I had to have it read for me—the check named the price of that coat, but it did not always—I can't recollect what I was paid because it is so long ago—he is the Mr. Maynard who spoke to me on Monday morning about the fire; he was the only man I heard it from—I had been in the habit of going to Holborn to get jobs before the fire, for several months, and I kept a girl who I sent regularly; I cannot tell you her name now—I have been in London 14 years, and know Holborn very well, but I could not tell you which is Chancery Lane—I have not been in that neighbourhood for years, only once or twice since I left Holborn—I have been working for Mr. Groves, of the New Cut, for nine years—I do not know my exact height, I never measured.

Re-examined. At that time I kept eight or nine girls to work for me, and one of them went every day for work for four months; sometimes twice a day, and sometimes three times, and occasionally I went myself—I did not send to Holborn for work after that Saturday because I knew the place was burnt down—I went there the next Saturday just to see the place, and saw that there had been a fire there.

SOPHIA GREENBOW . I am a widow, and live at 58, Clifton Gardens, Portedown Road, Maida Vale—I knew the Kinos six years ago, in 1877, when they were living in Newington Causeway—I have seen Davis at Newington Causeway on two occations—he was not treated as a relation or equal, quite the contrary—I remember on one occasion a ceremony connected with the circumcision of one of Kino's children, and a great festivity—I thought Davis was hired; he was waiting on the company as a servant—Mr. and Mrs. Kino and all of us were seated at the table

—I am Kino's aunt on my husband's side—my other niece is married to Davis—I knew it was Davis—I have never heard their connection with Davis mentioned to visitors—this (produced) is a photograph of Davis, he has since got more beard—his beard was in this condition in 1877.

EDWARD DAVIS . I am no connection of Davis's—I took the shop in Holborn after the fire, from Kino—I received a large quantity of keys from Kino, they were not labelled "Holborn"—there were duplicate keys of the outside door, and two sets of keys.

Cross-examined. I left two years since—I am speaking from memory.

By the COURT. The gate was fastened with a padlock—there were two keys of the padlock, and two of the inner plate-glass door—there were no duplicates of any keys inside—I had to have one made of the iron safe for my partner—these were all on one bundle tied with string. Davis received an excellent character.

GUILTY . KINO— Ten Years' Penal Servitude. DAVIS— Five Years' Penal Servitude.

OLD COURT.—Monday, June 11th, Tuesday 12th, Wednesday 13th, and Thursday 14th, 1883.

Before the Lord Chief Justice of England (Lord Coleridge), The Master of the Rolls (Sir William Baliol Brett), and Mr. Justice Grove.

28th May 1883
Reference Numbert18830528-620
VerdictGuilty > unknown; Not Guilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

Related Material

620. THOMAS GALLAGHER (33), ALFRED WHITEHEAD (23), HENRY WILSON (22), WILLIAM ANSBURGH (21), JOHN CURTIN (34), and BERNARD GALLAGHER (29), were indicted for feloniously and unlawfully compassing, imagining, and devising and intending to depose the Queen from the Imperial Crown of Great Britain and Ireland, and expressing the same by divers overt acts set out in the indictment. Second Count, intending to levy war upon the Queen in order, by force and constraint, to compel her to change her measures and councils. Third Count, to intimidate and overawe the Houses of Parliament.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL, the SOLICITOR-GENERAL, MR. POLAND, AND MR. R. S. WRIGHT Prosecuted; MR. EDWARD CLARKE, Q.C., with MESSRS. SIMS and H. J. BROUN appeared for Thomas Gallagher; MR. WAITE for Whitehead; MR. BOWEN ROWLANDS, Q.C., with MR. KEITH FRITH, for Curtin; and MR. MATTINSON for Bernard Gallagher; Wilson and Ansburgh defended themselves.

JOSEPH WILLIAM LYNCH . I am a coach painter, and an American by birth; my age is 22—in August last I was living in Birgin Street, Brooklyn, and was working for Meritts, of Bedford Avenue, Brooklyn—Daniel O'Connor asked me if I would join a society of which he was a member—he did not tell me the object of the society then; he told me afterwards, when I was initiated a member—that was about the 15th of the month—he said the object of the society was "the freedom of Ireland by force alone"—it was the Emeraid Club Branch of the Fenian Brotherhood—I was taken to Second Street, Bowery, to the Oddfellows' Hall—I went into an ante-room, and found no one but O'Connor there—he took me into the meeting-room, and there I found about 30 men, who were strangers to me—those men were known by numbers and not by their

names—I was taken to the presiding officer, whose name was Thomas Burns—I was "given" an oath, some of which I recollect—it was that I should stand by the watchword, obey my superior officers, and preserve the funds of the "Brotherhood"—I kissed the book after I had taken the oath—the presiding officer repeated the words to me, and I followed them after him—I paid two dollars as an entrance fee, and subsequently 10 cents a week for dues—the meetings were weekly, and I attended them about twice a month—a treasurer received the money; I don't know his name; his number was "82"—I did not see other persons take the oath, but I saw some men pay money—members were proposed at times, and they were elected by ballot; this and the payment of money was all the business I saw done—the watchword was "Providence," and the word you had to repeat before you could enter the room—the word was changed once or twice—I was informed of the change of word at one of the meetings—my name and address were taken down—I knew Burns's, name by conversation with my friend who took me there—he was a porter in a house in New York, and his number was 10—my number was 113—there were a vice-president, a secretary, and a recording secretary—two men named Sullivan were there, but I was not very well acquainted with them, only by seeing them at the meetings—the number of the recording secretary was 13—I heard the name mentioned as "the Old Man"—he was supposed to be O'Donovan Rossa—a friend said to me, "You were not not here last week?"—I said "No"—he said "Well, the 'Old Man' was here"—I did not know who he meant, and I inquired, when he replied, "Why, don't you know; it is Rossa"—there were several otherclubs—there were the Esperanza, the Sarsfield, the Thomas Davis, the Michael Davitt, the Tom Moore, the Emmett, and others—'there were members of the Emerald Club who were known as district members—we, the ordinary members, were to go by their orders if any were given by them—no district members were known to us—I continued a member until the beginning of March, following my trade all the time—on 6th March I received directions from Burns—he gave me a letter, and told me to take it to Dr. Gallagher, of Green Point, Brooklyn—I took the letter the next evening to the address given in Brooklyn—his name was over the door as a medical man, "Dr. Thomas Gallagher"—Gallagher himself opened the door—I asked him if the doctor was in, and he said "Yes; come inside"—I entered the parlour, and Gallagher read the letter—he asked me if I was working, and I said "Yes"—he asked my name—I told him William J. Lynch—he said "You are wanted to go to London"—I asked what for, and he replied, smiling, "You'll know when you get there"—I said "I would rather he excused, as I have my mother and sister to maintain"—he observed "You'll be back in two months, and your mother will be seen to whilst you are away"—he told me to stop work the next day, and to come and see him on the Friday (March 9th)—he told me not to tell any one, not even my mother, that I was going away—I saw him again on the Friday, at nine o'clock in the morning, and told him what I had done, quitted work—he gave me 50 dollars, and told me to purchase a ticket for Liverpool; that I was to go in another name, and so I selected "Norman"—he told me to call again after I had purchased my ticket—I bought a ticket for the steam-ship Spain, at the office of the steamboat company, the same afternoon—the same evening I met Burns, the presiding officer—he asked me if I went to Gallagher's, and I said

"Yes"—he added "The 'Old Man' will see you righted"—I knew of no one to whom that referred except O'Donovan Rossa—I went to Gallagher's house again, and showed him my ticket filled in with the name "William J. Norman"—he gave me 100 dollars, and told me when I got to London I was to inquire for the American Exchange, and leave a letter then for him with my address on it—he gave me a box wrapped up in paper—I did not return home that night, but slept at an hotel—on the morning of Saturday I went on board the Spain, and reached Liverpool on Tuesday the 20 th—I opened the box on the voyage the first day—I found a coil spring in it, with a piece of lead at the bottom—I do net know whether the spring was of steel or iron—the box wan about six or seven inches in length, and two or three inches wide, with a sliding cover on it—I broke it up, and threw it and the spring overboard—I remained at Liverpool until the 22nd—I stayed at the Temperance Hotel, kept by Mr. Cooper—I gave the name of Norman there—I had no luggage and nothing but the clothes I was wearing—I purchased a suit in Liverpool from a Mr. Fitzgerald, a tailor—a hat I bought from Mr. Jackson—on the 22nd I came to London and arrived at Euston—I stayed at Edwards's Hotel, Euston Square—on the 24th I wrote a letter and left it for Thomas Gallagher at the American Exchange—in the letter was my address, "William J. Norman, Edwards' Hotel, Euston Square"—I called at the Exchange nearly every day and read the newspapers there—in the afternoon of the 26th or 27th I saw Thomas Gallagher there—we went out for a walk, and he took me down Whitehall—I had never been in London before—on reaching the place where the explosion was (I had seen the place before, on the Good Friday) I said "This is where the explosion was"—he replied, "It is a bad job for us"—I said "Is that what we are going to do?"—he said, "Yes; and it will not be child's play"—we passed over Westminster Bridge, half-way, and on passing the House of Commons he said "This will make a great' crash when it comes down"—we returned the same way, and passed again up White-hall, on the Scotland Yard side of it—Gallagher said "This is Scotland Yard, the headquarters of the detectives of London; that will come down too"—he told me he was staying at the Charing Cross Hotel, and asked me if I wanted some money—I said "Yes, a little," and he gave me between 6l. and 7l. in English money, and said "Do not let yourself run short; the Old Man will see you all right"—I gave him a card of Edwards's Hotel, where I was stopping, similar to this (produced)—for a day or two after that I did not see him again—it was the morning after the 27th that I saw him—I was in bed at my hotel, and after I got up I went out with him—he told me he was going out of the city, and merely dropped in to see me—he told me to remain where I was—I did not see him again until Monday, 2nd April, about nine in the morning, at my hotel—we went out together, but I cannot mention the names of the streets we visited—he said, "I want you to go to Birmingham this morning, to 128, Ledsam Street, and inquire for Albert Whitehead, and tell him I have sent you for the material"—he gave me a 5l. note and told me to get a respectable-looking trunk and to put the staff in—this was the first time I had heard Whitehead's name—I left London between eleven and twelve in the forenoon—before going I saw the proprietor of Edwards's Hotel, and arranged that I should keep the room, and send a telegram whether I should return that night—I

requested the boots to. meet me at the station—I went to Bimingham and found 128, Ledsam Street, with "A. G. Whitehead" over the door—it was a small shop fronting the street, and in the window were paper and paints—I did not see much stock in the shop-at first I saw a lad named Crowder, and I asked him if Mr. Whitehead was about—White-head came from a room behind—I said to him "Dr. Gallagher has seat me from London for the material"—he said "What are you going to take it in?"—I said "He told me to buy a respectable-looking trunk"—he; said "Why you can't take it in a trunk, you want rubber bags," and he told me to go to Harris's, in the Bull-ring, where I could buy one, if not he thought I could not purchase rubber bags of the kind anywhere else in Birmingham—I went to Harris's, he had no rubber bag, but the clerk told me they had some rubber bottles, and he gave me this book of prices (produced)—I returned and showed the prices to Whitehead—he said "You will have to return without it and tell him you want rubber bags"—I telegraphed to Edwards's "I will not be at home to-night," and remained at Birmingham—on Tuesday morning, the 3rd April, I left Birmingham by the 2 o'clock train—on arriving in London I went to the American Exchange, wrote a letter and left it for Dr. Gallagher, and a second. letter I left for him at the Charing Cross Hotel—I found that he had called at my hotel and was handed a telegram that was sent by him (produced)—it was as follows: "Fletcher to W. J. Norman. Call at Charing Cross Hotel and ask for me"—I did not know he had passed by the name of Fletcher, only when he called on me—I went to the Charing Cross Hotel and saw him in room 312—I told him what had occurred the night before between me and Whitehead—he gave me a rubber bag wrapped in paper, and said "The chap he sent there that morning did not nave a bag; go to Birmingham again the first thing in the morning. Take the bag to Whitehead's"—the next morning I went to Birmingham accordingly—I told Mr. Crowe, the proprietor of Edwarda's Hotel, that I was not coming back and was going to leave—Gallagher had told me I had better leave the place and he would take a room for me as a medical student, the same as the other—I was to send him a telegram stating what time I should reach London on returning, and he would meet me at the depot—I left my portmonteau at Edwards's—I took nothing with me to Birmingham except the bag—I saw Whitehead at his shop, about middle day—I gave him the rubber bag—he took me into the balk room; he had a funnel, and I held the funnel whilst he poured the stuff in the bag—he took it out of some carboys that were there—it looked like buttermilk—I asked him what it was, and he said "You'll very soon know; a chap was here this morning and he took away about 20lb of it in some rubber stockings or leggings"—my bag was pretty nearly full—he told me I had better go to Snow Hill and get a trunk, and I did so—I bought a wooden box with a partition in it—the partition was taken out and left at Whitehead's—this is the trunk (produced) the bag containing the nitro-glycerine was. placed in the box, and I locked it and drove with it to the railway station, at Birmingham—I telegraphed to Gallagher on my arrival there, "I leave in the six, will be at Euston nine"—the six meant the 6 o'clock train.—the box was labelled and left in the charge of the porter to go up as ordinary luggage—the bag pretty well fitted the trunk, pretty tight. (Avery was called into Court.)—that is the man I bought the trunk of—Gallagher. met me on the arrival of

the train at Euston—the box was placed on the top of a four-wheeled cab—I got in, but he did not enter until it had gone about thirty yards—he told me he had taken a place for me at the Beaufort Hotel as a medical student, and he would be round next day—he gave me a five-pound note, and it was found upon me when I was arrested—Gallagher left the cab after it had gone about three-quarters of a mile, and I went on to the hotel, where I found that a room had been taken for me—I was not a medical student in any way—my room was on the third floor, and the box and its contents were carried up by a man and myself—the landlady said "Why don't you put it on your shoulder?"—the man said "It is so heavy"—it was heavy—I got to the hotel about 10, and about 12.80 the police came and arrested me, and the box and its contents were taken possession of—it had not been unlocked since it left Birmingham—I knew nothing of the other prisoners at this time—I only knew Gallagher and Whitehead—after my arrest I wrote a letter to Langriah, one of the officers, who took me into custody.

Cross-examined by MR. CLARKE. I first appeared as a prisoner in the police-court on 6th or 7th April—I had been there twice before I wrote the letter—Gallagher, Ansburgh, and Wilson were in custody with me—I knew that Whitehead was in custody—I wrote this note to Langrish: "Friend Langrish, I would like to see you this afternoon, something of importance. W. T. Norman, April 10," and I believe Langrish came next day and I made the statement—Superintendent Williamson was with him—I then wrote this letter: "Millbank, April 14. Mr. Langrish. Come and see me at once, come alone"—he came alone and I told him a little more—on the first occasion I told him everything that had occurred in England and New York except the names of the clubs—before I was called as a witness on the 19th I made a statement of what I could prove, and signed it in Mr. Pollard's presence—nobody told me that the information I gave to Langrish was not sufficient—I am 23 years old—I was never in Ireland—I have not interested myself much in politics, nor read a great deal about Irish politics—I do not know whether the population has diminished—I never heard of an Irish Parliament or that Ireland had a Parliament in the last century under the authority of the Crown of this country—I have heard addresses in New York on the condition and government of Ireland, but not at the clubs—I learnt from those addresses that there was a movement to obtain a Parliament for Ireland such as the Land League wish to have, which was to meet on St. Stephen's Green—I was informed when I entered the Fenian Brotherhood that their object was the freedom of Ireland by force alone, and to have a republican brotherhood there—the presiding officer told me that, and it was part of the oath—I have on three different occasions been asked to give the terms of that oath—I have not till to-day said a syllable about the republic being mentioned in the oath—I cannot remember all that was told me in the oath—I gave all the information that I thought of at the police-court, but I have minded that since—Thomas Burns was the president of the club—O'Connor lived is Atlantic Avenue, Brooklyn—I can't give you the number—I never saw any one sworn in or go through what I did—the meetings occupied one hour—they were weekly, no refreshments were served—the members were proposed by name, but I cannot remember any but those of Burn and the two Sullivans—they were known by numbers—I had never belonged to any secret society before—I cannot say when the fenian

Brotherhood was founded—I only belonged to the Emerald Club—when I left New York I had no knowledge of the purpose for which I was coming to this country—I have never entertained any designs against the life of the Queen—I have never been associated with any plot for an insurrection in Ireland or England—I do not want anything in the way of alteration in the government of Ireland—I should be as well satisfied with an Irish Parliament on St. Stephen's Green as with a republic—I don't mind whether it is the one or the other, it's no odds to me; it would not benefit me if Ireland was free to-morrow—that is the view I hold about it.

Cross-examined by MR. WAITE. When I first visited Whitehead I stayed with him about 20 minutes—I have given the whole of the conversation that took place between us—nothing more was said about polices—I had no idea that it was by the use of explosives I was to carry out these designs—I never saw or heard of Whitehead till I called at the shop in Birmingham—when I asked him what the material was I am sure he said "You will soon know," not "I really don't know"—judging from what Dr. Gallagher had told me I thought I had to take part in an explosion—he told me to take another name, and I selected; the name of Norman—I was not to receive any pay for my work—I suspected the spring that I saw in the box when on board because I never saw a spring like it with lead on the end of it—I don't know how nitro-glycerine is exploded—I judged that the lead on the spring might strike a cap, as the hammer of a musket might, and cause an explosion.

Cross-examined by Wilson. I never saw you before I saw you in the dock—I had heard about rubber-stockings before Littlechild gave his evidence at Bow Street—Whitehead told me that the party who was there took the stuff in rubber stockings or leggings—the party who took me to the club told me that the "Old Man" was O'Donovan rossa—I consider the oath which I took then as binding as the oath I have taken to-day—it was that I would stand by the watchword and preserve the funds of the brotherhood—I supposed "Stand by the watchword" meant to go anywhere—the secret of the society was to keep all the transactions—I have not kept them secret—I have broken my oath if it was an oath—I do not consider that I committed perjury—I cannot answer you what the difference is; I won't answer it.

Cross-examined by Ansburgh. I never saw you before I saw you at Bow Street, and never heard your name.

Re-examined. A man was proposed by name and he took a number, so that you could only tell him by his number—I did not know the object of the society till I reached the room; I did not like to back out of it—I was elected and was told that the object was the freedom of Ireland by force alone—I joined it knowing that, but I never thought I should be sent over on the errand I was sent on—the errand was the same as I have repeated—I did not know what it was—Gallager said that was what I should have to do—that was after the Local Government Board explosion.

By the COURT. A shopmate of mine asked me to join a club of which he was a member—I did not know it was a Fenian club until I got into the room, and then I did not like to back out.

THOMAS FOLEY . I was steward of the steamship Spain, which started

from New York on 10th March and arrived at Liverpool on march 20th—the last witness was a steerage passenger.

JOHN DIBBLE . I am agent for the house, 128, Ledsam Street, Birmingham—on 6th February Whitehead came and said that he wanted it as a glass-shop, to mix oils and colours, and to sell paints—he said he had seen it and thought it would suit him, and that he had come from Devenport—I said that I came from Tiverton, and knew Devonport and Plymouth—I entered into conversation with him—he did not seem to enjoy it, and I stopped—he then said that he had been in London two or five years, I cannot say which—I inferred that he had been in the same business there, but had not succeeded—he took the house on the same day and paid 1l. deposit and I gave him this receipt—after he left the house I found a galvanised iron funnel fixed over the furnace in the back kitchen; it ran into the chimney so as to carry off the steam or fumes—a pane of glass, too, had been put in.

Cross-examined by MR. WAITE. He certainly told me that he had been living in Devonport—I did not say that he had failed in London; I inferred from his conversation that he had not succeeded in business there and had come to set up business in Birmingham.

THOMAS RICHARD CANNING . I am apprentice to W. Canning and Co., wholesale drysalters, druggists, and oil and colourmen, of Great Hampton Street, Birmingham—on 6th February, the day before Ash Wednesday, Whitehead came and ordered 160lb. of nitric acid, 300lb. sulphuric acid, and 50lb. of glycerine—he gave his name, Albert Whitehead, 128, Ledsam Street—he wanted the best articles, and they were to be delivered the next day—I have a list of some oils and colours which he also ordered—I went with the carman next day to 128, Ledsam Street, saw the things taken into the shop, and delivered the bill to Whitehead—we had a conversation as to whether he was to pay for the carboys and cans—he paid me with a 10l. note and a 5l. note, and I gave him a receipt—there was nothing in the shop.

Cross-examined by MR. WAITE. A large quantity of sulphuric acid is sold in Birmingham.

JOHN THORNTON . I am one of the firm of Canning and Co., of Birmingham—I looked out these goods—the specific gravity of the nitric acid was 1.385 to 1.400, and the sulphuric about 1.845—that was of commercial purity, and the glycerine was pure.

Cross-examined by MR. WAITE. A large amount of nitric acid is sold in Birmingham in the jewellery trade—they always have about a carboy, but the gilders have the most—nitric acid is usually sold of commercial purity, not chemically pure.

Re-examined. Gilders use nitric acid, not nitro-glycerine; not mixed with sulphuric acid and glycerine—it is not common to sell a large quantity of nitric and sulphuric acid and glycerine together to a manufacturer.

JOSEPH HODGKIKS . I am one of the firm of Judson and Sons, manufacturing chemists, of Liverpool Street, Birmingham—on 22nd or 23rd February, Whitehead called and asked the price of nitric and sulphuric acids—I told him 4d. for nitric and 5d. for sulphuric—I axed him what he wanted it for; he said that he was opening a shop for selling small quantities—I showed him a sample of nitric acid—he asked if I could make it stronger; I told him the strongest was 78 to 80 by the hydrometer,

and tested it in his presence—he asked if we could make it stronger—I told him that was the strength I usually sent out, and I would not make it stronger for any one—he gave me an order for, I believe, two carboys of nitric acid, which is 120lb. to 130lb., and three of sulphuric, which is 170lb. to 200lb,—he agreed to pay cash, gave his name, Whitehead; 178, Ledsam Street, and I sent the goods next day, and my clerk, Mr. Heath, went to receive the money; and brought it back to me—on 6th March another order was given for two more carboys of nitric and four of sulphuric, and Mr. Heath attended to the delivery—on 14th March another order was given for two carboys of nitrio and four of sulphuric, and Mr. Heath attended to the delivery—Whitehead came, I believe, the next day and complained of the colour of the nitric acid, and said that it was not of the strength he bought it for—I told him it was perfectly correct, for I. had tested it myself, and suggested that I should send a man to the shop to test it—he agreed to that, and I sent Mr. Glynn with him with the hydrometer to test it—they returned together and Whitehead said that it was quite correct—on 28th March there was a further delivery of two carboys of nitric and four of sulphuric, and Mr. Heath attended as usual—on 4th April there was another delivery of three carboys of nitric, and, I think, three of sulphuric, and Mr. Heath attended to that—the total was 11 carboys of nitric, or 1,543lb., and 16 of sulphuric, making about 3,006lb., all paid for by cash on delivery, and the money brought back by my clerk.

Cross-examined by MR. WAITE. There are middlemen between us and the retail dealers—it would not be extraordinary for a person to sell sulphuric and nitric acids through a middle man.

Re-examined. A middle man would sell them separately; he would not mix them and sell them as nitr-oglycerine.

ALFRED HEATH . I am a clerk to the last witness—I attended with the carman when the deliveries were made—Whitehead paid me each time—I never saw any customers in the shop—I saw the boy Growther—Whitehead said that he wanted the things to retail them and had employed travellers to obtain orders for him.

ARTHUR ELY . I am one of the firm of Philip Harris and Co., of 9, Bull Ring—on 23rd February I sold 2cwt. of glycerine, specific gravity 12.6, to Whitehead, and five gallons of linseed oil and turpentine—he gave his address, 128, Ledsam Street—this price list (produced) comes from our firm; it was in use last April—we do not keep indiarubber bags, but we had some gutta-percha bottles.

Cross-examined by MR. WAITE. A good deal of glycerine is sold in Birmingham.

Tuesday, June 12th.

JOHN MAY . I am warehouseman in the employ of Messrs. Harris, chemists, at Birmingham—I occasionally sell—on 19th March I sold 2cwt. of glycerine to Whitehead—he gave the address, 128, Ledsam Street—he also had 5 gallons of boiled oil and 5 gallons of linseed oil—the price was 1s. a pound—on 20th March he came and complained of the specific gravity not being high, enough; it represented a strength of 12.50, and he wanted 12.6—we exchanged it for him, and charged the difference.

Cross-examined by MR. WAITE. I have no practical knowledge of how nitro-glycerme is made; I have some little knowledge, by hearsay, but not as to the actual manufacture.

CHARLES HINSON . I am a carman in the employ of Messrs. Harris—in February and March I delivered certain quantities of glycerine at 128, Ledsam Street, to the name of Whitehead—I believe it was 2cwt. each time.

JOHN CLEWLOW . I am manager to Mr. Moulton, china dealer, of Moore Street, Birmingham—in February I sold some earthenware pans for chemicals to Whitehead, of 128, Ledsam Street—they were delivered—I afterwards saw them in the possession of the police—Whitehead told me he had come from America; he did not say when.

GEORGE FRANKS . In March last I was steward on board the steamship Parthia, one of the Cunard Line trading between New York and Liverpool—we left New York on 14th March—I am not certain of the day we arrived at Liverpool, I think it would be about the 26th—we had a saloon passenger on board of the name of Thomas Gallagher; the prisoner is the man.

EDWIN HUTHER . I was a steward on board the Parthia—I came on the voyage from New York to Liverpool on 14th March—I don't recollect the day we arrived—Thomas Gallagher was a saloon passenger on that voyage—Ansburgh and Bernard Gallagher were steerage passengers.

Cross-examined by Ansburgh. There were about 60 steerage passengers and about 24 saloon passengers—I did not see you in any way connected with Thomas Gallagher, no more than any other passenger, nor with Bernard Gallagher.

EDWARD GRAY . I am clerk at Charing Cross Hotel—on the morning of 27th March, about a quarter to 8, Thomas Gallagher came and asked for a bedroom—he gave the name of Dr. Gallagher—I allotted him room 312—letters and telegrams came for him whilst he was there, and on his asking for them he had them.

Cross-examined by MR. CLARKE. I do not remember anything about his movements while he was at the hotel—I cannot tell anything with regard to his being there at any particular time on Wednesday or Thursday—I had no occasion to communicate with him while he was at the hotel.

JOHN GREEN . I am a porter at the Charing Cross Hotel—I remember Thomas Gallagher coming there on Tuesday morning, 27th March—I took his luggage up to 312—I had charge of the key while he was out—no one else occupied that room between the time of his arrival and the police taking possession of it—I recollect a young gentleman calling while he was there—I do not recognise him.

Cross-examined by MR. CLARKE. I knew nothing of his movements while he was there except going out in the morning, when he gave me his key, which I hung on the nail kept for that purpose; I never saw him again till the evening—he used to go out about 10 o'clock in the morning—that is a very usual time for persons to go out.

GEORGE DICKENS . 1 am a clerk at Euston Square Railway-station—I was there at my duty on the night of 29th March—a train from Liverpool arrives at 5 minutes to 10; it comes through Birmingham—I recollect two men coming to the cloak-room that night about 10.15—one gave the name of Gallagher; the other gave the name of Wilson—I see those men in the dock—Gallagher left two bags and a bundle at the cloak-room, and Wilson the portmanteau—I should think it weighed about 60lb.—Gallagher told me to keep it in the cool—Gallagher paid 2d. for

package—I keep a book of these things; it is not here, it is at the station—I entered the names in that book—the bundles were taken away on the 30th, I cannot say by whom—the portmanteau was taken away on Saturday, the 31st, about 3 o'clock, by Wilson, in a cab.

Cross-examined by MR. CLARKE. There was nothing remarkable in the bundles or bag, or in the weight of the portmanteau—about four or five people came to the office at that time—we were not very busy that train.

Cross-examined by Wilson. I cannot say whether I or a porter handed you your portmanteau—I know it was your portmanteau because you gave the name of Wilson—I don't know thaT number of the cab it was put on (The witness was directed to fetch his book).

ALFRED COOPER WOODWARD . I am principal clerk of the Inland Telegraph branch of the General Post-office—the original paper writing for, the purpose of a telegram handed in at Charing Cross Telegraph Office would come into my charge—these produced, except the one from Glasgow, came into my hands—all the messages handed in from any office in England and Wales come to me, but not from Scotland (The witness produced four, Nos. 28, 183, 406, and 527).

JAMES KEECH . I am principal warder at Millbank Prison—I have had Thomas Gallagher in my charge there—I have seen him write on several occasions while there, and have acquired a knowledge of his handwriting—I believe the telegram produced to be in his handwriting (This was No. 28, dated 27th March, 1883, from Thomas Gallagher, Charing Cross Hotel, to Alfred Whitehead, 128, Ledsam Street, Birmingham: "Will see you soon, feeling all right").

JOHN EDWARD CROWE . l am the proprietor of Edwards's Hotel, Euston Square—on 22nd March the witness Norman came there and took a bedroom on the ground-floor—he gave the name of Norman—next morning he inquired as to some carriage builders—three or four days after he had been there a person called on him who. gave the name of Fletcher—I am rather bad-sighted—I have no doubt I saw that person at the police-court—to the best of my belief it was Thomas Gallagher—he called on Norman two or three times before Monday, 2nd April—on that day Norman told me he Was going to Birmingham', and I was to keep his bedroom for him till he came back—he had paid his bill almost every day—he said he thought he should have some heavy luggage, and he should require "Boots" to meet him, and he would let me know by what train—about 4.30 that afternoon I received this telegram: "April 2nd, 1883, from Mr. J. Normian, Birmingham, to Mr. Edwards' Hotel: I will not be home to-night"—on Tuesday morning, the 3rd, he returned" about 10 o'clock—he brought ho luggage with him—Thomas Gallagher called on that day, I think in the morning, and also in the evening about 7 o'clock—Norman was not in then; he came in afterwards, and I gave him a message which Gallagher had left for him, that he wished him to go with him to the theatre that night—on receiving that message Norman went out—a telegram came for him during his absence; it was given to him on his return between 8 and 9 o'clock (This was No. 527, dated April 3rd, 1883, West Strand, 8.46, from Fletcher to W. Norman: "Call at Charing Cross Hotel, ask for me")—on receiving that he went out and returned about 10.30—on Wednesday morning, the 4th, he left about 9 o'clock, paying his bill, saying he should not want his room any more

—I feel sure that Thomas Gallagher called that, morning, and they went out together before breakfast—they were gone about a quarter of an hour—I think it was after his return that he said he should not want his room any more—I never saw him again till he was in custody—he left his portmanteau at the hotel—it was placed in the hall ready for him, and Inspector Mackie afterwards took possession of it—it was in the same condition as when it was left.

Cross-examined by MR. CLARKE. I identified Dr. Gallagher as well as I could at the police-court; I said, "I think I recognise the person"—I can see him better to-day than I could in the other Court; I had no difficulty then, when I got down and saw him closer, after I had given my evidence—I believe I said I did not take much notice of him—I was not sure till I had seen him and looked at him.

Re-examined. I went from the witness-box and got nearer to where the prisoners were standing, and I then had no doubt—I have no doubt now.

GEORGE GLANVILLE . I am clerk at the American Exchange, 449, Strand—I know Thomas Gallagher—he is the farthest from the Jury box—he first registered at the Exchange on 8th November last year—I have the register—he entered his name and address in it, "Dr. Thomas Gallaher, Brooklyn, staying at the Midland Grand Hotel"—on 24th November he called again and took a ticket of membership for one month, for which he paid in advance—during that period I saw him on several occasions at the Exchange—I can't exactly remember the last time I saw him, but I think it was some time in December—I saw him again on 27th March this year—on that occasion he signed the register, u Thomas Gallaher, New York, Charing Cross Hotel"—he spelt the name without the "g" on both occasions—on this occasion I gave him a ticket of membership for one month—this (produced) is the ticket I gave him (This was dated March 27th, 1883, and signed "Thomas Gallaher"—the member signs the ticket for identification of signature—I do not remember whether he stated on that occasion where he had come from—I would not be positive whether he mentioned any vessel, but I know that I got to know in some way, whether from him or not, that he came in the Parthia—after that, 27th March, he came to the Exchange frequently—about 30th March a telegram came—he did not speak to me about that one—I took one in not addressed to him, but in another name—to the best of my belief Ansburgh came to the Exchange two or three times—I had no conversation with him.

Cross-examined by MR. CLARKE. The American Exchange has been established about 12 years—we are American bankers, but we have besides that, for the convenience of Americans, a reading-room and writing-rooms, where, although they do not bank with us, they are free to come by paying a certain fee—it is extensively used by Americans—we keep a careful list of the members, and also a book in which all who come are registered, their names, the town they come from, and where they are staying in London; not necessarily all members—the list is for general use for Americans in London—we have one paper, the Continental Times, published every week, which publishes a list specially for us, our London arrivals and our Paris ones as well—no other paper publishes the list, but the Continental Times has a large circulation—by entering his name and address with us he would be practically advertising his

pretence in London—we get a list from the steamship companies of passengers in each vessel as they come over.

Cross-examined by Ansburgh. I saw you at Bow Street the first day you came up, early in April—I did not notice the dress of the young man I saw at the Exchange—I recognise you by your features—I think I saw you two or three times—I will not positively swear it; that is my impression.

CHARLOTTE MATILDA CLARE . I live at 17, Nelson square, Blackfriars Road—on Saturday, the 31st March last, I had a bedroom to let, a that room on the third floor—the prisoner Wilson came to my house on that day, between 2 and 3 o'clock, and asked me if he could have the room and stay there—he agreed to pay 6s. as rent, and paid me a week in advance—he had no luggage when he came, but he went away and returned with a portmanteau—I asked him his name, and he said "Wilson"—he went out for a time alter he had tea, and whilst he was away I went up to attend to his room—I moved his portmanteau the next morning—it was not heavy—on the Sunday evening I saw two or three persons as I was entering the square—I had an idea that Wilson was one of them—he followed me in almost directly—I could not recognise any of the persons in the square—on the Monday I saw him at breakfast, and he asked me for ink and paper—he told me he had come to work up for examination—I asked him if it was for the Civil Service, and he said "No, for the medical"—he said that he had a tutor at Charing Gross—he then went out and returned some time in the afternoon—on Tuesday, the 3rd of April, he went out after breakfast, and came back in my absence in the afternoon—he did not sleep at my house that night—he took his portmanteau with him, but left a few things behind him—on the Wednesday he came back about 3 o'clock, and brought his portmanteau again—I drew his attention to one of the handles being unsown and loose—he took his portmanteau upstairs himself—in the evening he went out again—the next day, Thursday, I went into his room; I took hold of his portmanteau, but it was so heavy I could not move it—when he came back he was accompanied by another man—whilst he was in his room with the other man Inspector Littlechild was in the house; and he, and some other officers with him, went up and took them into custody.

ELIZABETH CLARE . I am sister-in-law of the last witness—I remember Wilson lodging at our house—on the Tuesday he went out directly after breakfast; I was there when he came back; he brought a small parcel under his arm—he did not sleep there that night; he told me he was going to Wolverhampton, and would be back next day, probably about 12 o'clock—he said his tutor was going with him from Charing Cross—I moved his portmanteau when he was going away—it was not particularly heavy then.

GEORGE DICKENS (Re-examined). I now produce my book—the names Wilson and Gallagher are entered in it—Wilson left his portmanteau on the 29th March, and it was taken away on the 31st—the number is 51627—we put a label on the luggage with the initial of the person leaving it, and the number of the ticket—this portion of the label (produced) has "W" on it and the figures "516 u—" 27 u is torn.; they are my figures—the ticket would remain on the portmanteau when it was taken away—here is also an entry in my own writing, with the

name of Gallagher, and No. 51628—the same figures 516 go on right through the year—this entry is "Gallagher, two bundles and a bag deposited on 29th, taken away on 30th."

Cross-examined by Wilson. I hare not torn out any leaves from the book—the name of Gallagher follows yours.

HENRY NICHOLLS . I am salesman to Cow, Hill, and Co., indiarubber manufacturers, 46 and 47, Cheapside—on 30th March I sold a water pillow, about 26 inches by 18 inches, not to any of the prisoners—the price was 14s. 6d.—it had a brass nozzle to fill it by, and a screw—on 4th April I sold two indiarubber bags; to the best of my belief to the prisoner Wilson—we do not often sell two at a time—this is one of our business cards (Found at Charing Cross Motel.)—anybody can easily get one of them.

Cross-examined by Wilson. I said at Bow Street, "Wilson is the person who made one of those purchases," but I do not know which, but the purchaser called afterwards and cleared that up—it was after 2, and it may have been 3 o'clock.

JOHN DOYLE . I am a salesman to Cow, Hill, and Co.—on 5th April, between 10 and 11 a.m., a man, who I believe to be Wilson, called and asked for some air pillows—I showed him some—he bought three, paid for them, and took them away—I fix the date by the ticket "5.4.83 three pillows"—these are the three pillows I sold (produced).

Cross-examined by Wilson. I cannot swear to you.

WILLIAM HENRY WALKLEY . My father has a shop at No. 5, Strand, and I assist him—I sold this pair of fishing stockings on Tuesday, April 3rd, to Gallagher—he asked for gas bags, but I told him we did not keep them—he looked round, saw the stockings, and asked what they were—I told him fishing stockings—he said they would be useful for wading in the summer, and bought them for 21s., telling me to send them to Charing Cross Hotel—I sent them 10 minutes afterwards, and 20 minutes or half an hour subsequently Wilson came in, and inquired if the bags had been sent to Dr. Gallagher—I told him we had no bags to send to Dr. Gallagher, but a pair of fishing stockings, and that I had sent them—he said "Dr. Gallagher asked me to call as I was passing," or something to that effect.

Cross-examined by MR. CLARKE. They did not make a very cumbersome parcel—they were ready to be taken away if he had chosen, but instead of taking them he gave me his name, and the number of his room.

THOMAS HENRY JESSEE . I am a macintosh and umbrella maker, of 6, Duncannon Street, Trafalgar Square—on 3rd April, between 10 and 11, Dr. Gallagher came and asked for an indiarubber pillow or bag for medical purposes—I showed him one, which was not large enough—I pointed out to him a large bed, price 2l. 15s., for which he paid me with a bank note, and gave his name Thomas Galher, 312, Charing Cross Hotel—he asked for an estimate of some other bags, and I said that I would send one with illustrations, and the sizes and prices—those would not be solid rubber like these—I sent the bag and the estimate.

JAMES CROWDER . I am 13 years old, and live at Birmingham—on 1st of March I was passing along Ledsam Street, and I saw a notice in a shop window that a boy was wanted—over the window was "A. G. Whithead"—I went in and saw Mr. Whitehead, the prisoner, and he engaged me at 5s. a week—I remained with him until he was taken into custody—no

one was employed there besides myself—there were paper and brushes and paints in the shop—I never sold things or saw much sold—Mr. Whitehead told me he was mixing paints—he worked in the back premises with two suits of clothes on, and his nails and fingers were stained yellow—after I had been there about a week I heard a noise worse than the report of a gun—I opened the door between me and the shop in the direction the noise came from, and I saw that the room Was full of smoke—Whitehead was there, and I asked him what it was—I understood him to say that he had a pistol in his hand, and it accidentally went off—I did not see any pistol—a pane in the kitchen window was blowed out—I saw Thomas Gallagher at the shop about a fortnight or three, weeks afterwards—he asked if Whitehead was in—I said "Yes;" but before that I saw a telegram for Whitehead; I do not know what was in it—he gave the name of Fletcher, and I tapped at the window for Whitehead to come into the shop—Gallagher asked him if he sold oil, and Whitehead said "Yes "—something was said afterwards by Gallagher that I could not hear, as he leaned over the counter—Whitehead then sent me for three halfpennyworth of soap from the Parade, and I went to Oxley's, on the Parade, which was about a mile away—he said I need not hurry—when I came back with the soap the two men were still together, and Whitehead said I could have half a day's holiday, and take a nice walk round the town—next day Whitehead said he wondered why Fletcher had not sent for the oils he had ordered—Wilson, to the best of my belief, afterwards came in a cab and said He had come for the oils Fletcher had ordered—he went into the back premises with Whitehead—I did not see him come out again because I was asleep—it was 9.30 or 10 a.m.—Norman afterwards came with a black box, which was taken into the back kitchen, and afterwards taken away in a cab—this is it (produced)—I saw a portmanteau brought there the same day—Norman brought it about 10 o'clock—I saw it taken into the back kitchen, but did not see it taken away.

Cross-examined by MR. CLARKE. I don't know what made me so sleepy that morning—I was not sleepy the morning the person called and saw Whitehead—I only saw that person once—I was sent out directly he came—he was still in the shop when I came back, I am sure of that, and Whitehead also—I was sent out again directly—the stranger did not speak to me after I came back from the Parade—Mr. Whitehead told me to be off at once for a half-holiday—I cannot tell how the stranger was dressed; I did not notice his clothes; I did not notice what sort of coat he had on, or whether he had anything in his hand, or what sort of a hat he had—I did not notice whether he kept his hat on or not—there was nothing particular that I noticed about him—he had a long beard, I am quite sure of that.

Cross-examined by MR. WAITE. Whitehead did not tell me to go out till the gentleman whispered in his ear.

Cross-examined by Wilson. Mr. Dibble's son told me that you called at Whitehead's in a cab—he told me nothing more—I do not remember at Bow Street a gentleman catching hold of me and pointing you out and saying "That is Wilson," or any gentleman speaking to me abort you before I gave my evidence—I will not swear that you are the person who called at Whitehead's—I only form my opinion from what Mr. Dibble's son told me.

By the SOLICITOR-GENERAL. Mr. Dibble is the house agent for 128, Ledsam Street—he let the house to Whitehead—to the best of my belief Wilson is the man.

By Wilson. Mr. Dibble's son did not show me a likeness of you—Mr. Black did; he showed me all of them—he did not point out one and say that was Wilson; the names were under.

By the COURT. I saw the picture of Wilson at Delamotte's Hotel after I was at Bow Street two or three days ago—I had the talk with Mr. Dibble's son a day or two after Whitehead was arrested—Mr. Black was showing the pictures to a gentleman who was stopping at Delamotte's Hotel the other day, and there I saw them; and I saw them at Birmingham, at Moor Street Police-station about a week before I came to London—I did not know that it was Wilson before I saw the pictures—I thought it was him when I saw the pictures—I am sure about it now—I never sold anything in Whitehead's shop; he used to sell them—he sold five sheets of paper and two paint brushes and threepenny worth of paint—that is all I recollect his selling.

HENRY AVERY . I am a trunk maker at Birmingham—on Wednesday, 4th April, Norman came to my shop and bought a large black box, which he took away in a cab—I have seen it here; it had three partitions in it—these (produced) are them.

RICHARD PRICE . I am a sergeant in the Birmingham Police Force—at the end of March I became aware that chemicals were being delivered to the shop, 128, Ledsam Street—I went and looked and saw the nature of the shop—I saw that "A. G. Whitehead" was over the door—in consequence of what I heard, on the 31st March I dressed myself as a painter and went into the shop—I purchased a brush from Whitehead, who was called into the shop by a boy—I saw that his dress was burnt very badly by acids, and that he was wearing two pairs of trousers, two waistcoats, and a coat—I saw a carboy in the shop—I reported what I had seen to the Chief Constable; and in consequence of information I entered the shop with a skeleton key about two o'clock on the morning of April 2nd—I found in the front shop seven glycerine tins, some empty and some full, one carboy of acid, some paper-hangings, brushes, and colours—there was but little stock in the shop—in the room at the back I found six carboys of acid, some salters' scales, such as are used for weighing acids, a thermometer, and a portmanteau containing papers—Whitehead's clothes, in which I had seen him, were lying on a chair—there was a scullery going out of the back room—there I found three more carboys containing acids—there was a furnace in the scullery—it had a funnel over it—there was no light in it—the furnace was an earthenware vat containing some glycerine and acid—in a bucket was some white fluid, with some water over it, and also some more in another vat in the scullery—over the shop were five bed-rooms, and each of them was empty—I went in again about the same time next morning, Tuesday, the 3rd—the glycerine tins were more full, and a lot more were empty—I found that work had been going on—I took samples of the liquids in process in the vat, and gave them to Dr. Hill, the Borough analyst—each time I entered I felt round the door to see if there was anything there, and on the second occasion I found that a walking stick has been propped up against it, and I removed the stick before I went in—I produce the clothes worn by Whitehead—the coat has a label on it,

"Brooks Brothers, Broadway, New York"—on Thursday, the 5th April, about seven in the morning, Mr. Ferndale, chief constable, Inspector Black, and I went to the place again and took possession of the things that were there—Whitehead was next door, in a house adjoining, but not opening into the shop; it was quite a distinct house—he was living there, and I brought him into the shop—I said to the Chief Constable "This is Mr. Whitehead," and he ordered him into custody—Inspector Black asked him how he accounted for the acids and things, and Whitehead said that it was his business—before he answered the questions, Black said "I want to tell you who we are; we are all police officers, and now we want you tell us how You account for the acids and the stuff you have in the vat of the furnace"—Whitehead said "You want to know too much; I am not going to pay to learn a profession, and to let every one into my secrete"—the Chief Constable told him he would be charged with having explosives in his possession—there was a cupboard in the room, and he wanted very badly to get to it—I stood between him and the cupboard—he said he would not go until he had blacked his boots—in the cupboard I afterwards saw about a bottle of sulphuric acid and a small bottle of nitric acid—there was a blacking brush as well—Inspector Black took possession of the things.

Cross-examined by MR. WAITE. I have been in the force 17 years—I got to know about nitro-glycerine in this way: I have been very fond of electricity, and I used to attend the science schools on electricity—nitro-glycerine was not a part of the lectures, but sulphuric acid and nitric and was, and it came up one evening that those two acids and glycerine would make nitro-glycerine—that was not the reason why I entered the shop, but after what I was told had gone there it roused my suspicion—it is a very uncommon thing for those engaged in painting to wear two pairs of trousers and two waistcoats; it is very seldom that painters or drysalters wear anything but a green baize apron—I never saw them wear two pairs of trousers, only overalls—I never lived in a mining district—I nave heard that a great deal of dynamite is used in England made of nitro-glycerine in stone quarries where they explode—I replaced the stick against the door when I came out—to do so I put my arm through a large hole in the door that was cut for a letter box—I have no knowledge of the strength of sulphuric or nitric acid necessary for making nitro-glycerine—there was one dirty shirt in the cupboard, but no clean things—there was one brush in the cupboard—I never said that there was no brush.

JAMES BLACK . I am an inspector of the Birmingham Police—I went with the last witness to the shop in Ledsam Street—I saw some tins and carboys with liquids in them—Whitehead said that he had occupied the premises since the 12th of February—he was taken into custody and charged with having the explosives in his possession for the purpose of committing a felony—I asked him to tell me the name of any person with whom he was doing a legitimate business, and he replied "Oh you want to know too much"—he said that he came from Plymouth—I asked him what part of Plymouth, and he again answered "You want to know too much"'—I asked him what was in the vat and boiler, and he replied "I have had to pay for what I have learned, and I am not going to expose my secrets; there are plenty of chemists about, ask one of them"—there was not much else in the shop besides there acids, only a little wall

paper, which was placed unrolled down the walls, which made it look as though the shop was full—Mr. Hill, Dr. Dupre, and Colonel Majendie examined the stuff that was in the shop—we found a pocket-book with "Hy. J. Wilson" and "H. J. Wilson" each written twice—it also contained the railway time-table from Euston to Liverpool—on the last page but one is "A.S. 12," "6 A.N."—I found the letter produced, signed Henry J. Wilson, and dated from 17, Nelson Square, Blackfriars, April 2, 1883:—"Dear Friend,—"If you are not otherwise engaged, I would like to have the pleasure of your company at one of the theatres this evening. I will be at the place decided upon to meet on any such occasion at 6.30." Signed "H.J. Wilson"—I also found a grocer's card at Ledsam Street, and it has "Thos. G., Charing Cross," written in red ink on the back of it—there was a piece of paper with "G" written on it three or four times, followed by "Charing †," and then "dun" written after the cross—on another piece of paper are the figures "420," and then "Manh.," the beginning of Manhattan—just underneath is "G," and the rest torn off—I also found a list of some shirts purchased of Lewis, of 6, Ranelagh Street, Liverpool, and this envelope (an American one); this receipt for sulphuric and nitric acid supplied by Judson, and another for the salters' scales and tin funnel—I showed some of the jars I found to Mr. Truro—I also found the partitions of a box which had been produced and a portmanteau which Norman has spoken of—I find in this pocket-book something in cypher which has not been deciphered.

Cross-examined by MR. WAITE. I found 9l. or 10l. worth of stock there, not reckoning the sulphuric acid or the paper—the paper is worth 2l. 1s. 8d.—I should be surprised to find that over 20l. was paid for it—people start shops in Birmingham with less than 20l.—there were other books and papers in the cupboard which are here—there was an American dictionary, some pieces of newspaper, a few bill-heads "Bought of Whitehead and Co., wholesale and retail dealers," and a prayer-book, in which is the name of Whitehead, Millbay, Devonport.

THOMAS EDWARDS . I am boots at the Midland Hotel, Stephen Street, Birmingham, and remember Whitehead's arrest on the 5th—I saw Wilson at the hotel the morning previous—it was about 9.10, and he asked me to fetch his portmanteau down from Boom No. 97—I said I would do so in a few minutes—he said he was in a hurry to go, and gave me a coin, which I put in my pocket, and fetched a big black portmanteau down bound with brown and took it into the office—I did not notice the coin at the time, but when I brought the portmanteau he was in the hall and asked me if he had not given me half a sovereign in mistake for a sixpence—I took out the coin and found it was a half-sovereign—I gave it to him, and he handed me a shilling—I was taking the portmanteau to the station when Wilson called me back and said that he wanted it put on a cab—I put it on the footboard of a Hansom, and he was driven in the direction of Ledsam Street—I am quite sure Wilson is the man—this is the portmanteau as far as I can say.

WILLIAM BOWEN . I am a cab-driver in Birmingham—on 4th April I was on the stand with my Hanson when I was called to the Midland Hotel; the prisoner Wilson got into my cab, and I drove him with a portmanteau, which the boots put on the cab, to 128, Ledsam Street—he entered the shop and I took the portmanteau in—I saw the boy Crowther

here—I had. seen Wilson between 9 and 10 o'clock the night before in the station yard by the Queen's Hotel door—he had a portmanteau with him, and I asked him if he wanted a cab—he did not engage me but vent to the Midland Hotel.

Cross-examined by Wilson. I do not know Mr. Littleson—I was not told that a man named Wilson was arrested—I never saw your likeness.

ROBERT LANCHESTER . I am a cabman, of Birmingham—on 4th April, a little before 11 a.m., Wilson fetched me from the Five Ways rank, and took me to 128, Ledsam Street—he got out, and I asked him if he had any luggage, he pointed to a portmanteau in the shop—I went to lift it, but found it was very heavy, and said "Good God, have you got sovereigns in here?"—he said "I will help you," and as we were lifting it the handle he had hold of broke away in his hand—we got it into the cab, and drove to the New Street Station—the box was placed to the pavement, and a porter named Dee took it to the platform.

Cross-examined by Wilson. I will not swear to you, but I believe you to be the man—no one pointed you out to me—no one showed me your portrait—I won't swear to you, but I believe you to be the very man.

GEORGE DEE . I am platform porter at New Street Station, Birmingham—I was there on Wednesday evening, 4th April—there is a train for London about 11.30—I remember Lanchester's cab arriving with a passenger and a portmanteau—Wilson is the man—I asked him where he was going, and he said "Euston"—I said I would label it "Euston," and he said "Yes"—I went to pick it up, and found one of the handles broken—I tilted it on one end, and placed my arms under it—Wilson said "Be careful, old pal"—I can't exactly swear to the words—I said "What does it contain, pig iron?"—its weight was enormous—I carried it down to the lift, and Wilson went to the booking-office—there was a 6 p.m. train to Birmingham—I saw Norman drive down there about 5.45 or 5.50—he brought with him a large black box, and left by the 6 o'clock train.

Cross-examined by Wilson. I am prepared to identify you—I could not swear to or identify every one for whom I carry luggage—I can swear to you, because from the weight of the portmanteau I took notice of you.

GEORGE REES (Birmingham Detective). On Tuesday, 3rd April, I received instructions to watch 128, Ledsam Street—on the morning of the 4th I saw a cab drive up to the door at 9.35 a.m., and Wilson alight with a portmanteau, which Bowen brought out and took into the house—Wilson left at 10.40, and took Lanchester's cab—I followed in another cab—I did not see the portmanteau brought out, because I had to evade him—he drove towards New Street Station about 11.5—I reported the matter to the chief constable—about 5.45 on the same day I saw Norman at New Street Station—a black box was labelled and put into the train—I got into the next compartment—I caused a telegram to be sent to London—I saw Norman leave the train at Euston—Inspectors Mackie and Langrish were there in plain clothes—a man was standing behind a post, but I could not recognise him—I went to the Beaufort Hotel, and there I saw Norman and the black box.

Cross-examined by Wilson. I asked Bowen and Lanchester at Bow Street if they could recognise the man driven to the railway station, but I did not point you out.

ROBERT HOWES , I am a cabman—on Wednesday, 4th April I was

at Euston Square Station when the train from Birmingham arrived at 9 o'clock—I was hailed by a porter, and a heavy black box was put on to my cab—Norman got in, and before I left the station Thomas Gallagher got in—I was ordered to go to No. 2, Southampton Street, Strand—at Torrington Square Gallagher got out, and I was told to go on to the Strand, where Norman got out.

LAURA CAROLINE DE LA MOTTE . My mother keeps the Beavfort Hotel, 2, Southampton Street, Strand—on Wednesday, 4th April, between 12 and 1 o'clock, Thomas Gallagher came and said he required a room for a medical student—he engaged Boom No. 3, on the third floor, at 28s. a week, stating that his friend was coming from Birmingham, and that his name was Norman—he said the room would be wanted for a month or two, that Norman was a very nice young gentleman, and would we take great care of him, he was going to walk the hospitals—Norman came later on, but I did not see him—the police came late at night, and took him in custody.

JOHN LANGUISH (Police Inspector). I took Norman in custody at 12.30, and took possession of his large box, and took both to Bow Street Police-station, where I searched him and found three keys, two of which opened the locks of the box, in which was a large bag, containing a liquid—it was a large bag, and filled the box—H was taken to Woolwich the same morning—I found a 5l. note on him stamped "March 10th, 1883, New York;" this telegram, "Fletcher to Norman—Call at Charing Cross and ask for me," on a form of the American Exchange, Strand r directed to Thomas Gallagher—on 15th April I went to GlasGow and saw Bernard Gallagher—I told him he would be charged with being concerned, with others, in conspiring together to destroy public buildings by means of explosives—he said, "I am very pleased I am going to London over the matter, as I know I shall be able to clear myself of this"—he was brought up to London! and charged with the other prisoners at Bow Street.

ADAM MACKIE (Police Inspector). After Norman was in custody and the large box had been examined I took it to the Royal Arsenal, Woolwich—I got there about 6.15 on the 5th, and left it with Mr. Brown, who examined it—I got the keys from Langrish—I went to Edwards's Hotel and got a portmanteau from the proprietor—I opened it and found in it a catalogue of Harris, 9, Bull King, Birmingham, referred to by Norman in his evidence, and some American newspapers.

THOMAS CARD I am a cabdriver—on Wednesday, 4th April, I was at Euston Station about 2.30 when the train from Birmingham arrived—the prisoner Wilson, to the best of my belief, got in with a very heavy portmanteau—he told me to be very careful with it, not to trust to the handles, for it was very heavy—one handle was broken away—he told me to drive to 17, Nelson Square, Blackfriars—I did so, he got out then and the portmanteau was carried in—I should think it weighed upwards of one cwt.

JOHN GEORGE LITTLECHILD (Police Inspector). On 5th April I with other officers went to Nelson Square, Blackfriars, about 1.30 p.m.—Wilson and Thomas Gallagher were there—I said to Wilson, "We are officers of police, and for the present you will be detained until we see what is in this room, as we have reason to suppose that there is a quantity of explosive material here; the first thing I want to know is what is in that portmanteau," alluding to one under the dressing

table—Wilson said, "You bad totter look and see"—I drew it out—the key was in the lock—I opened it, and found on one side of it what seemed to be two bags, but they turned oat to be indiarubber fishing stockings full of some liquid—I said "At this appears to be an explosive substance, you will be detained until some more specific charge is preferred against you"—Wilson made no reply, but Gallagher said, "what am I to be detained for? I know nothing about this; I only met this young man for the first time this morning"—I asked Wilson his name, be said "Henry Hay ward Wilson"—the other gave his name as Dr. Thomas Gallagher, room 312, Charing Cross Hotel—I found on Wilson between 11l and 12l. in money—there were three empty clean india rubber bags in the room, and in the pocket of a pair of Wilson's trousers was this small spring (produced)—an under waistcoat of Wilton's was found saturated with something—it was wet in portions at from some oily matter, and was taken to Mr. Hake, the assistant to Dr. Dupre at Westminster Hospital—I searched Gallagher and found on him 115l. in Bank of England notes—most of them were stamped "Colgate and Son, New York"—I also found upon him 2,345 dollars in American notes—I afterwards found a letter of credit at the hotel for 600l.—in the roan I saw found two indiarubber bags and a' pair of fishing stockings, a glare thermometer, a bill of Lewis's, Liverpool, for a suit supplied to Wilson, some of the American Exchange tickets signed by himself 27th March, cards of Edwards's, Sevage's, and Delamotte's Hotels, a business card of Cow, Hill, and Co. an envelope and letter addressed to Thomas Gallagher, American Exchange, London, and bearing the Glasgow post mark, April 4th, and a draft advertisement, "Wanted, Furnished Apartments, with stable for two hones and carriage, &c., apply to J. G., American Exchange"—I arrested Curtin on 7th April, in Euston Square, about 11 a.m., whilst walking towards the station from Woburn Place—I called him by the name of Curtin—he turned, and I said that we were officers of the police, and must take him to the police station—he said "What am I arrested for?"—I said "At present I cannot say you are arrested, but I wish you to go with me"—I put him in a cab, and took him to Scotland Yard, where he was seen by Superintendent Williamson, who asked his name and address—he said "John Curtin, Upper Woburn Place," and that he came from New York on 6th February on board the Egypt, landed at Queenstown, went to Fermoy, his native place, to see his parents, and then went to Glasgow, where he worked in the Clyde Shipbuilding Yard, and lived at 36, West Milton Street—he was asked his address in New York—he said "301, East Fifty-Ninth street"—he was asked to account for his connection with Dr. Gallagher, of Charing Cross Hotel—he said, "I don't know such a person"—he was then asked why he Wrote to him, and he replied that he never had—he was shown the letter which I bad got from Charing Cross Hotel—he opened and looked at it, and said he never wrote it—I have seen Curtin write his name and address since he has been in custody, and I believe the letter to have been written by him: (Read) "Dear Sir,—I arrived here yesterday and am stopping at 12, Woburn Place, till I hear from you. Let me hear as soon you can. Yours truly, John Curtin." This post-office order signature is also in Curtin's writing—I took him to Bow Street and he was charged.

Cross-examined by MR. ROWLANDS. I have never when him write anything

else—I have had considerable experience in writing, and I believe it to be the same.

Wednesday and Thursday, June 13th and 14th.

JOHN GEORGE LITTLECHILD (Re-examined). I produce some of the bank-notes found on Thomas Gallagher—the stamp at the back is J. James, B. Colgate and Co., New York, March 10, 1883—twelve out of the seventeen are stamped in that way—I produce the letter of credit and the printed cards "Thomas Gallagher, 420, Manhattan Avenue, Brooklyn"—then are two orders for the House of Commons, one dated 16th November, no year, and the other 17th November, 1882; also a map of Bimingham and one of London—I don't observe any marks on the map of London—on taking Curtin into custody I found on him a pawn-ticket for a watch and Albert, pledged at Vaughan's in the Strand for 2l., on 7th April this year—I was at Bow Street when Whitehead was brought up from Birmingham—after his examination before the Magistrate Whitehead and the other prisoners were in the passage of the Court, Curtin recognised Whitehead and shook hands with him—on Sunday, 8th April, I went with other officers to Savage's Hotel, 38, Blackfriars Road, about 12 o'clock, I saw there Ansburgh—I told him that we were officers of police, and requested him to accompany me to Scotland Yard—he said "What am I arrested for?"—I said "At present I cannot say that you are arrested"—I took him to Scotland Yard with his luggage, * both these and at Savage's Hotel there was some conversation between him and Inspector Williamson—I asked him to say what he was doing in this country—he said "Why should I give any explanation of what I am doing here?"—he was told by Superintendent Williamson that anything that might happen to him would be his own fault if he did not give some explanation of himself—he said he came from America—he gave me, is that, no explanation of where he came from—I showed him this photograph (produced) of Thomas Gallagher at the hotel—he said "Who is that?"—I said "Your friend Dr. Gallagher"—he said "I don't know it"—he was detained in custody and searched, and a small sum of money was found on him—when I first saw Gallagher he was shaven all but a small moustache and slight side-whisker—Wilson wrote the whole of this document in my presence except the "M 36" at the top, and signed it—I find the name "Henry Wilson" written on the first page and several times in this book (this was the book produced by Black, which was found with the pencil and telegram on Whitehead), in the handwriting of Wilson to the best of my belief—there is also some writing in pencil which appears to be in Wilson's handwriting—the pencil letter of 2nd April is also in his writing, and so is the telegram No. 183, "Harry Wilson to Gallagher, Charing Cross Hotel, April 3rd, 1883, 5.45—sorry cannot see you to-day, have to call on Alfred, will see you to-morrow evening"—on this ticket (produced) there is part of a "W," and red pencilling—Wilson's portmanteau was brought to Scotland Yard from Woolwich after the stuff had been taken out of it—I directed the officer Melntyre to take the labels off—I did not actually see him do it, but afterwards he handed it back to me, and I told him to paste it on separate pieces of paper—it was the portmanteau I had seized at 17, Nelson Square—Dowell took it to Woolwich.

Cross-examined by MR. CLARKE. Dr. Gallagher was searched is my presence by Shee of the Royal Irish Constabulary, at 17, Nelson Square—

the documents taken from him were handed to me—I searched Wilson at the same time in the same room—the things taken from Gallagher were put in his hat, the things taken from Wilson I put in my pocket, and when I went away I put Dr. Gallagher's things in my handkerchief this was not found on Wilson—I got this photograph from Charing cross Hotel, it was in Dr. Gallagher's trunk in his room—this is clean-shaven it was a great deal more like him then than it is now—I think he is very much the same so far as hair is concerned—he was quite recognisable by this when arrested—the alteration in his appearance has happened since he has been in custody.

Cross-examined by MR. ROWLANDS. Curtin said among other things. that he had been working at a Clyde ship-building yard—I mentioned that before—from inquiries that have been made I believe he gave a correct address, and the account he gave was substantially correct with the exception of his address in New York—I found on him the address of a Mrs. Galley, living at Blackburn—the accounts of himself he gave were in answers to questions put by Mr. Williamson—I think Mr. Williamson asked him, "How do you know Dr. Gallagher?" or words to that effect, before Curtin said anything about not knowing Dr. Gallagher or having written him a letter—I don't know if there was a newspaper of the day before found on Curtin—an account of Dr. Gallagher had been published in the newspaper of the 7th—I was present when he was searched—I do not think there was a newspaper in his hand; I have no recollection of seeing it—the shaking hands with Whitehead was in the cell-passage at Bow Street Police-court on the 12th April I think—this was the first time that Whitehead had seen the other prisoners, with the exception of in the dock, where they had been, together for two or three hours—I did not catch any conversation between them—something was said, the talking was not general, they were put in a line to be taken away in the van—I did not catch words to the effect, "Well we are in a mess together, we may as well shake hands," they might have said so—I have had considerable experience for a number of years in handwriting—the pawnticket is signed John Curtin, 12, Woburn Place—I found 2l. and 1s. or 8s. in silver on Wilson, also this unpaid bill for 19s. 6d.

Cross-examined by Wilson. I don't remember picking up a piece of paper from the floor while I was searching you, and saying to the officer who was searching you, "Where did this come from?"—the first time my attention was called to Lewis's bill was on finding it among the papers taken from Gallagher, in the hat on the table—I found the under vest in the portmanteau after it came from Woolwich—this (produced) is the document I saw you write, it is about a shirt and some collars.

Cross-examined by Ansburgh. I first saw you in the public room at the coffee-house—we followed you into the hall and said we were police officers, and asked you to accompany us to Scotland Yard—I said nothing more than that—I did not say, "I am sorry to see a young fellow like you in such a mess"—you asked what you were arrested for, and I said, "At present I cannot say that you are arrested"—I can't say if I said, "If you do not be very civil here you will get a rough Handling"—I had to request you to be civil, and I said it was a pity you did not know how to be more civil—I did not say, "I will have nod—d Yankee nonsense here"—I did say, "You must remember you are in England now and

not in America," when I requested you to be more civil—I guessed you came from America by your accent—when you were asked at Scotland Yard where you came from you said from America and from Newcastle-on-Tyne—I think Mr. Williamson asked you what you came here for, and I think you said, "I came to try and make a living"—I am not quite sure whether I have stated that before—you did not say you had to leave America under unpleasant circumstances—I will swear you did not say so.

Re-examined by the ATTORNEY-GENERAL. I told Ansburgh he must be more civil, because he began to be very impertinent and to use very unpleasant language, he began to abuse me.

Ansburgh. I can tell you what the reason was: when he took the money out of my pocket I told him to take account of what money I had.

Witness. Which I was doing—I did not get mad or out of temper—you said, "Well, be pretty careful what you are doing with it," and I said, "I will be careful."

By the ATTORNEY-GENERAL. I had possession of a shirt belonging to Curtin which I got from his bag—I gave it to Bryce, the warder at Millbank, and it was given to the prisoner—I don't know what became of it; it bears the name of Kent—I found in Curtin's portmanteau a memorandum showing his movements since he left America and so forth, it is in his writing. (Read: "Left America February 6th, arrived in Queenstown February 16th, Glasgow February 23rd; left Glasgow for Blackburn March 2nd, arrived back in Glasgow March 7th. Mr. Cameron's War Boat, Paisley Road.")

By the COURT. I did not hear what passed between Curtin and White-head when they shook hands; I had not seen them speaking together before that.

By MR. ROWLANDS. I found several shirts besides this one; two only were marked "J. Kent," the others had no mark whatever.

JOHN DOWDELL (Police inspector). On 5th April I was at 17, Nelson Square, when Thomas Gallagher and Wilson were arrested—I saw a portmanteau there—this (produced) is it—I took possession of it, and took it in a cab to Woolwich Arsenal, where I opened it in the presence of Colonel Majendie and Mr. Brown—they took samples of it—I then took it to the magazine; it was there opened and I saw the contents—it was the two fishing stockings which have been produced containing some liquid; also an undershirt—when we got to the magazine the liquid had been leaking out of the stocking, we had not tied it up properly, and we wiped it up with the shirt, which Littlechild afterwards conveyed to the hospital.

PATRICK MCINTYRE (Policeman). A portmanteau was pointed out to me at Scotland Yard by Littlechild—I was directed to take off the labels—this is the label I took off with part of a W and red figures—there were three other labels pasted one over the other—I had to take them all off and separate them.

WALTER SAVAGE . I live at 38, Blackfriars Road, it is called Savage's Hotel—this (produced by Littlechild) is one of our cards—on 29th March Ansburgh came and asked the price of a bedroom—I told him 1s. 6d. the night—he asked how much a week; I said 9s.—he said he would take the room for four nights—he had no luggage with him—he came

next day and brought some things—on Saturday, 31st, Dr. Gallagher called; he asked for some one staying at the hotel, I did not catch the name he mentioned—he described him; he said he was a fair young gentleman, and I believe he said he had come on the Thursday—from the description I concluded he meant Ansburgh, I sent up for him; I believe Gallagher went up, but I am not certain—on the Sunday Ansburgh paid me 9s. for a week—Gallagher called again, I think on Thursday the 5th that he was arrested; he asked again for the same gentleman, but I did But catch the name—I told him he was out—I found afterwards that was a mistake—I told Ansburgh that his friend had called and he said if be called again to send him upstairs—he did not call again—Ansburgh remained at our house till the Sunday, when he was taken into custody—Nelson Square is three or four minutes' walk from our house.

Cross-examined by Ansburgh. I don't remember your telling me your name—I am not in the habit of asking the names of strangers who come to the house—I am sure I did not ask your name.

ROSA EVALINE PRIOR . I live at Savage's Hotel, I am sister-in-law to the proprietor—I remember Ansburgh staying there—a gentleman called twice to see him, first on the Saturday, and afterwards on the Thursday—it was Thomas Gallagher—the first time he came he went up into Ansburgh's room—I was on the staircase—I heard the click of the door as though it was locked, but I am not certain, they might have been abutting the door—on the Thursday he went away without seeing Ansburgh, and I afterwards saw him across the road with another gentleman, and they went towards St. George's Circus—I believe that is the way to Nelson Square—I told Ansburgh that I had seen his friend and the way he had gone—when Ansburgh first came he had no portmanteau—I afterwards noticed one in his room, I believe, on the Saturday morning—I am not sure of the gentleman I saw with Gallagher, Wilson is the nearest to him.

Cross-examined by Ansburgh. While you were at the hotel we had two or three private conversations on different things—you never mentioned Dr. Gallagher's name to me—I told you your friend had called, and if you made haste you might catch him—you never mentioned anything about your friend to me.

ALPHONSE SALLONSON . I am postal clerk at the American Exchange—I remember a letter and telegram addressed to Daniel Galer—Thomas Gallagher came and asked if there were any letters for him—I looked in the G box in the rack, and told him "There is a telegram and a letter for Daniel Galer, but that is not your name"—he said "No, but I want them, I am an agent for him"—I said "We can't give letters up unless you bring the gentleman to whom they belong, or get his authority"—he said that his friend was in New York, and he wanted me to make up a telegram to send over there to get an authorisation to deliver the letter to him—I wrote a telegram to that purport—it was not sent—he said it amounted to too much—he came again the next day and brought some one with him, to the best of my belief it was Ansburgh; he put his hand on his shoulder and said "This is Daniel Galer," and on that I gave the letter and telegram to the one that was represented to be Daniel Galer.

Cross-examined by Ansburgh. You were not pointed out to me before I gave my evidence at Bow Street—I saw you first when you entered the

dock at Bow Street—nobody said "That is Ansburgh" to my knowledge—I was with a friend, and we both said that we had seen you before—I believe I said that Glanville did point you out to me, but at the same time I said I thought I knew you—I cannot swear to whom I gave the telegram or letter, I did not notice the dress of the person, he was only with me six or seven minutes, I did not expect to see him in the dock—he would be about the same stature as you, that is my only reason for saying it was you; but I think I had seen your face—I think there were six persons in the dock when I first identified you—if I have said three it must be a mistake.

Cross-examined by MR. BROUN. I dare say letters were left at the Exchange for Dr. Gallagher in his name before 27th March—I have given him Several letters—I do not recollect giving him any before 27th March.

Re-examined. To the best of my belief Ansburgh is the man.

DENNIS KILFEATHER . I reside in Milton Street, Glasgow, and am by trade an iron dresser—I know Thomas Gallagher; I saw him in the autumn of last year in my house—I think he was born in Scotland—I have known him about twenty years—he went to America about fifteen or sixteen years ago—when I saw him in November he said he had come from America on a pleasure trip to see his friends—I know John Curtin; I saw him first in February last—he came to me where I was working, the Sun Foundry, and brought a note with him—it purported to come from Thomas Gallagher—I understood from Curtin that he had come from America—I asked him how Thomas Gallagher was getting on, but he seemed to know very little about him—I tried to get him employment in the Clyde Shipbuilding Yard, and I succeeded in doing so—on the 2nd of March he went to see his sister at Blackburn, and on the 7th he returned to Glasgow and continued to work until Saturday the 12th—he left on Saturday 17th—he said he was going back to his employer to see if he would start him again—be stayed at my house until 4th April—he left in the evening and took a ticket for Blackburn—the carriage into which he got was marked for Liverpool—he told me he had written to his father and mother in Ireland for money on Monday, and had got some from them on Wednesday—he did not tell me how much, but he told my wife—I was not present—she is not here—she goes by her maiden name, Johnson—he left on that Wednesday night, taking two bags with him, and I did not see him again till he was in custody—Bernard Gallagher came twice to my house and saw Curtin—he was there between 6 and 7 o'clock on the day he left, but they did not know each other till I introduced them.

Cross-examined. The note was to get employment for Curtin—he went out several times to look for employment and spent several hours some days in doing so—he told me he was disappointed that he could not get employment, and had tried very hard to induce some one to take him on again—he told me he had a sister living at Blackburn—he stopped at my house all the time he was at Glasgow, and behaved well and steadily.

Cross-examined by MR. MATTINSON. I knew the Gallagher family some years ago, they emigrated about 15 years ago to America—the father was then dead, and old Mrs. Gallagher and her sons went; there were six sons at the time—I cannot say who was the elder, but Bernard was the eldest at that time—Daniel was the youngest—Bernard was a

moulder—since he went to America he has been over here several times and has been to my house on several occasions, and I always understood he came to Glasgow to get work—I understood he worked at Shaw's foundry at Glasgow three or four years ago as a moulder—I know he worked in that direction for four or five months at a stretch—I saw him come into my house on April 1st, the Sunday night before Curtin went away—he was a little the worse for liquor, and I did not ask him where he came from—I had not seen him for three weeks or a month, and before that I had not seen him I believe for some few years.

WELLING READY . I am a clerk in the money order office of the General Post Office—I produce an application for a money order for 5l. on the usual form—I also produce the usual form of receipt for money which is received at the receiving end.

JAMES KEECH (Re-examined). I have seen Thomas Gallagher write, this is his signature to the application. (This was for a money order far 5l. payable at Glasgow to James Curtin. Signed, Thomas Gallagher, Charing Cross Hotel, April 3rd, 1883, taken out at the West Strand Office. The post-office order for 5l. was signed John Curtin, stamped Glasgow, April 4th, 1883.)

ANN MULLENS . I assist in the management of the hotel, 12, Upper Woburn Place, near Euston Railway Station—on 5th April, about 4 p.m., Curtin came and engaged a bedroom, he had two bags with him—I think he said he had travelled all night from Scotland and had stopped at Blackburn on the way—he had ground-floor room No. 2—I asked his name next day, he said "John Curtin"—he stayed till Saturday morning, the 7th, and then went out, and I never saw him again—Melville stayed there at the same time.

WILLIAM MELVILLE (Police Sergeant). On 6th April I received directions to engage a bed-room at No. 12, Woburn Place—Curtin was staying there—he occupied Room No. 2, and I No. 3—I breakfasted with him On the 7th in the public room—I conversed with him about his stay in London—I said "It is very trying to be in London when you have nothing to do"—he said, "Yes, I'm tired of it; I only came here the day before yesterday, and I shall be leaving again this afternoon"—I said, "Have you got any friends in London?"—he said, "No, not one"—he left about 9.30, and said that his bill was heavy—Sergeant Regan and I followed him, when he went out, to Charing Gross, and stood looking towards the hotel for 15 or 20 minutes—he then crossed towards Mr. Vaughan's, the pawnbrokers, went in, and I believe he pawned his watch, for he had a chain when he went in and none when he came out—he returned towards the hotel and Littlechild arrested him—be asked what for, and Littlechild said that would be explained at Scotland Yard—I got into the cab with him and he said "You are the gentleman I breakfasted with this morning"—I said "Yes"—I afterwards took possession of his portmanteau and a piece of paper with the date of his arrival in England, and some shirts which were marked "J. Kent"—I was present on Sunday, the 8th, when Littlechild went to Savage's Hotel, where Ansburgh was.

Cross-examined by MR. ROWLANDS. This is the first time I have given this conversation in evidence—I was not asked to mention it before the Magistrate—I made a note of it when I got to Scotland Yard—when he left the telegraph office in the Strand I followed him up Bow Street, and left him there, seeing that he was returning in the same direction,

and went to Scotland Yard and gave information—I searched him, no newspapers were found on him.

Cross-examined by Ansburgh. I saw you in the public room of the coffee house having breakfast, and you went through the hall to go upstairs—I did not say "It is not his fault, Dr. Gallagher led him into this"—Littlechild said afterwards that you were very impertinent for a young fellow—I did not say to you at Bow Street on the Monday, "You will get into a bad mess," or "There is sufficient evidence against you this morning to give you 20 years or life," or "The only way to get out of this is to turn Queen's evidence," or "If you give evidence that Dr. Gallagher was the head of a treasonable conspiracy to blow up public buildings and destroy Her Majesty's Government, you will get 500l."

Ansburgh. You are a notorious liar.

Re-examined. There is no foundation for those statements—I was alone with him, but nothing of the sort was touched upon.

ADOLPHUS FREDERICK WILLIAMSON . I am Chief Superintendent of the Criminal Investigation Department—on 7th April Curtin was brought into my office—he said that he came from America, and landed at Queenstown, and had been to Fermoy and Glasgow, and came to London on the Thursday, calling at Blackburn—I asked him whether he knew Dr. Gallagher, who was in custody for having in his possession nitro-glycerine—he said "I know nothing about him"—I said "Have you written a letter to a person of that name at Charing Cross? now be careful what you say"—he said "I did not"—Gallagher had been arrested on the 5th, and I had a letter found in his possession at the time—I showed the outside of it to Curtin, and said "Did you write him this letter?" and he said "No, I know nothing of Dr. Gallagher"—I said "I am not satisfied with your explanation; I shall have to charge you with being an accomplice with Dr. Gallagher in having nitro-glycerine in your possession for an unlawful purpose"—I don't remember his reply—Ansburgh was brought to me on Sunday morning, the 8th—he said his name was William Ansburgh, that he had come from America; he said "I will not tell you what I am doing here"—I asked him a second time to give me an account of himself—I pressed him, and said that if he did not he would probably be put to inconvenience—he said that no doubt he should be put to inconvenience anyhow—I said "No, you will not if you give me a satisfactory explanation"—he said "If you have any charge, you had better make it"—I said "Do you know Thomas Gallagher, Dr. Gallagher?"—he said "No, I don't"—I directed him to be taken to Bow Street and charged.

Cross-examined by MR. ROWLANDS. Curtin gave me his address at Glasgow, which I found correct—he told me Fermoy was his native place.

Cross-examined by Ansburgh. You may have said that you came from New York—I don't remember your saying that you came on the Panther, or my asking you if that was the Canard line—if you had said that you were a dynamiter or belonged to a treasonable conspiracy I should recollect it, and should probably have taken it down, but your manner was so Hippant that I did not take anything down; you did not seem inclined to give me any information.

WILLIAM SMITH . I am a sub-constable in the Royal Irish Contabulary, stationed at Fermoy—I know Curtin as John Kent—his father is a publican in Abbey Street, Fermoy—Curtin was his mother's maiden name—he has been away from Fermoy for ten or eleven years, or perhaps more—in

January or February this year he came to Fermoy—I did not speak to him, but I saw him with his father.

ANN HUSSEY . I am the wife of Martin Hussey, of 29, Duke Street, Liverpool—about 14th or 15th February Bernard Gallagher came to lodge with us in the name of Campbell—he said that he came from America—two young men came with him; not either of the other prisoners—he only stayed one night—about 29th March he came again, and I said "Are you Mr. Campbell?"—he said "No, my name is Bernard Gallagher"—he took the lodging, and stayed two nights—he said that he was going to Glasgow.

Cross-examined by MR. MATTINSON. It was on a Tuesday when the three men came, it was the 13th, 14th, or 15th—he told me the name of the ship he came by, but I cannot remember it—when he came on the 29th he looked as if he had been drinking, and he told me he had—I first gave my evidence to Mr. Johnson, of Liverpool—Mr. Boyd came to me, and Mr. Butcher from London.

JOHN BOYD (Superintendent of Police, Glasgow). On 6th April, in consequence of receiving a letter from London, I went to Mr. MacGavigan's, and there obtained a torn telegram—I put it together—I found Bernard Gallagher in a public-house the worse for drink—I asked him if he had heard from his brother the doctor lately, and he handed me an envelope addressed to him at MacGavigan's, with the Maryhill post-mark, and another with the American Exchange stamp on it, stamped London, 3rd, and Glasgow, 4th—I charged him with being concerned in an explosion that had taken place in Glasgow on 20th January—he said he was in America at the time—he said he left on 9th January, and had come over in the Catalonia—in consequence of a communication which the Procurator Fiscal received from Bernard Gallagher I went to see him in prison—I was shown into his cell, and said, "I understand, Bernard, you have written to the Procurator Fiscal, asking me to call for the purpose of making a statement to me"—he said that he had—I said, "I have been instructed by the Fiscal to inform you that anything you say may be used in evidence against you, and you are to understand that the Fiscal cannot enter into any arrangement with you"—I took down what he said as he spoke it—he said: "We came home on 10th February, three of us; James Campbell, my name, Daniel Galer, and Charlie Coleman. We stayed one night in Liverpool; from there we went to London to see somebody, but did not see anybody. We left there and came to Glasgow by boat, after staying two days in London. We remained in Glasgow two days, and sailed from Liverpool in the Germania, White Star Line, from Liverpool. I was only two days in New York, and my brother the doctor brought me back and sent me to Glasgow to tell James Curtin to go to London. I know all of them; my brother told me about them. I don't belong to any of the two schools in New York or here either, or any school having any connection with dynamite. I heard talk of Whitehead and Oxford, or a name like that. A young man came over in the boat on the last occasion; he belonged to the school, and he went to London; I don't know his name. I don't believe the gas work was done with this school, but an Irish lot; I heard my brother say so. My brother Daniel returned with Charles Coleman in the Germania, because they did not believe in doing such business as Curtin wanted them to do. If I saw my brother in London I am sure I

would get him to tell all if he was not told I was informing. I knew them, the members, by seeing them in Brooklyn; there will be about 30 altogether. We arrived in Liverpool on a Monday night, and there saw the Westminster affair in the papers. There are a lot of rich men in the school in New York; I have nothing to do with them, and all I had to do was to tell Curtin to go to London. If taken to London I will identify them and tell all I know"—I read it to him, and he said that it was correct—on 13th April I received a further letter from him—I cautioned him again and he said, "I know Murphy in the case and Normack, or a name like that; those are the only two I know more than I told you of before; I might know more of them if I saw them"—I took that down—he said at another time that O'Donovan Rossa was the head of one of of the schools in America—he referred to his brother in America, who had told him some part of the statement.

Cross-examined by MR. ROWLANDS. I did not question him as to which brother he referred to—he said that some of the things were to be attributed to his other brother, without specifying what things.

Cross-examined by MR. MATTINSON. Bernard Gallagher told me he was a native of Campsey, that is a few miles from Glasgow—I believe that to be true from what I have heard—I have also heard that since he emigrated with his family he has been over here and worked on several occasions in a foundry—when I asked him if he had heard from his brother Dr. Gallagher lately, he said that he had had a letter from him that morning, and handed me the envelope—he was the worse for drink, and appeared to have been drinking some time, from April 3rd to the 6th I understand—he lodged with Mrs. McGallaver—she was precognised by the Procurator Fiscal, and her statement was taken as statements are taken in Scotland, and she signed it—I think she said that he was also drinking when he was in Glasgow from February 26th to the 29th—I have not ascertained that all the correspondence between Bernard Gallagher and his brother was written by Miss McGallaver, as I cannot rely upon any statement she gave me owing to her conduct—she made different statements to me. (The following telegram was here put in from Thomas Gallagher, Charing Cross Hotel, to Bernard Gallagher, Maryhill: "I send money now. Look for work. Don't drink.") I visited Bernard Gallagher once, as I did the other prisoners.

Cross-examined by MR. CLARKE. He said "That must be from my brother in New York"—my opinion is that he was referring to the other brother.

WILLIAM SMITH (Glasgow Detective Inspector). I was present when Bernard Gallagher was arrested; he gave up this envelope—I put him in a cab and he said he was very glad he was going to London; he would tell all he knew, and would not be punished for any one else.

LLEWELLIN READY (Re-examined). I produce the application for a post-office order for 5l. at Charing Cross, from Bernard Gallagher, on 4th April, and another from Thomas Gallagher to Bernard Gallagher, for 1l. 10s., on March 30th.

JOSIAH BRAINE . I am the American Vice-Consul at Birmingham—in March last I had been staying at Queenstown—I left for England on Sunday, 5th March, late at night, and on Easter Monday morning saw Thomas Gallagher on deck—he said that he had been told by one of the passengers that I was the American Vice-Consul at Birmingham, that he

had been working very hard, and was coming over for his health, and also to walk the hospitals here and on the Continent, and he was going to London by that night's train.

THOMAS MILLER . I am a Detective Sergeant of Police at Devonport—I have been stationed there 21 years—I was instructed to make inquiries as to the existence of a place called Millbay Road, Devonport—there is no such place there, but there is a mile off, partly in Stonehurst and partly in Plymouth—there is Millbay Station—I inquired at Millbay Road for Albert or Albert George Whitehead at all the hotels and lodging-houses, and of persons who have lived there for some years, and can find no trace of his being there lately or formerly—the only person of that name was the wife of a mariner in Stonehurst—there was a family of that name 20 years ago.

Cross-examined by MR. WAITE. There is a Millbay Road in Plymouth, but not in Devonport—Stonehouse intervenes between them—there are three towns joined in one, but they are different boroughs—the houses are continuous with the exception of a bridge—they are different properties—I found a Whiteford and a Blackford—the population of the three towns is about 130,000, of which about 80,000 are in Plymouth.

JAMES KEECH (Re-examined). This (the application for the post-office order for 4l.) is in Thomas Gallagher's writing, and this post-office order also.

HENRY ORMSON BROWN . I am assistant-chemist to the War Department at Woolwich Arsenal—on Thursday morning, 6th April, Inspector Mackie brought down a large box; I saw it after it was opened; it contained a large indiarubber bag of fluid, which I estimated roughly at 180 or 200 lb.; in my judgment it was nitro-glycerine—Mr. Dent gave me a sample in a glass vessel, a portion of which I gave to Dr. Dupree's assistant, Mr. Nottingham, through Colonel Majendie—the contents of the black bag were afterwards taken to the marshes and destroyed—I was there the same afternoon when Inspector Dowdell brought the portmanteau—I saw it opened—it contained two indiarubber fishing stockings, each of which contained about 40 lb. of liquid, which in my judgment was nitro-glycerine—a sample was taken from each stocking and put into two bottles labelled "A" and "B," and given to Mr. Nottingham and taken to the Home Office Magazine, and afterwards destroyed—it seemed to be all the same kind of stuff.

Cross-examined by MR. WAITE. It had not been converted into dynamite when it was destroyed; it was mixed with saw-dust—it requires to be mixed with kisselgore to make dynamite—a ship may very likely have 50 tons on board at a time—there are many dynamite companies in the kingdom—I know they turn out very large quantities.

WILLIAM DENT . I am assistant chemist at the Royal Arsenal, Woolwich—I took a sample, out of the indiarubber bags, and handed it to Mr. Brown.

GEORGE DONNEGAN . I am assistant to Dr. Dupre—on 5th April I went to Woolwich and got some samples in two bottles, "A" and "B," which I gave to Dr. Dupre—I brought a third bottle from the same place, which I had taken to have filled—I took some kisselgore in it to absorb the nitro-glycerine.

COLONEL VIVIAN MAJENDIE . I am Chief Inspector of Explosive Substances—on 5th April I was requested to go to Woolwich Arsenal—

in the chemical department I saw a portmanteau containing these two large fishing-stockings, waterproof—I opened them, took samples of their contents, and gave the bottles to Dr. Dupre's assistant—they contained nitro-glycerine; a thick, comparatively colourless, liquid—there was also some liquid floating upon it of rather a pink colour; it probably came from the colouring matter in the stockings—there were about 40lb. in each stocking—indiarubber stockings would greatly facilitate the carriage and increase the safety—Mr. Brown handed me another sample, it was nitro-glycerine, and was given to Donnegan—I saw the waterproof bag a few days after at the Home Office Magazine, Woolwich—it was empty, but it would contain about 300lb. of nitro-glycerine—on the 6th I went to Birmingham with Dr. Dupre to 128, Ledsam Street; the name of Whitehead was over the door—we examined what we found on the premises on the 6th, 7th, and 10th—the manufacture of nitro-glycerine had undoubtedly been carried on at those premises—it was in progress—it is formed by the action of nitric and sulphuric acids and glycerine—nitric acid is the important agent—the sulphuric acid acts as concentrator of the nitric acid—the proportions are broadly, four of sulphuric by weight, two of nitric, and something less than one of glycerine; four of sulphuric, two of nitric, and one of glycerine would make 2lb. of nitro-glycerine—the sulphuric acid acts in taking up the water, and is afterwards washed out as well as the excess of nitric—the explosive power is produced by the combination of the nitrogen with carbon—we found on the premises a quantity of nitric and sulphuric acid and glycerine, and two lots of nitro-glycerine completely manufactured, which I estimated at 160 or 170lb.—one lot was in a carboy, and there was about 30lb. of it floating on the acids in a pan in course of manufacture—all I found of manufactured nitro-glycerine was about 200lb., nitric acid over 600lb., sulphuric 700lb., and glycerine 112lb.—there was a place for a furnace, a domestic copper, and carboys, and everything necessary for the manufacture—except for the purpose of destruction, the only object I know for which nitro-glycerine is used, is as a medicine in very minute doses—it is used for mining purposes, but not by itself—it is only used in this country when mixed with an inert base, and it is my duty to see that the statute is carried into effect—persons would not be allowed to have any quantity in their possession without a licence, nor would they be licensed—I think almost any known building would be destroyed with a less quantity than 200lb. if applied properly, and many lives—I inspected the Local Government Board after the explosion of 15th March, and have no doubt that it was caused by a nitro-compound, and I believe nitro-glycerine—I believe 20lb. would do it—it was massive stone-work and very strongly built.

Cross-examined by MR. CLARKE. It Is still standing, it has been repaired.

Cross-examined by MR. WAITE. When you want to produce a local effect nitro-glycerine is more powerful than gunpowder, but for some purposes gunpowder is the more powerful—a large amount of dynamite is manufactured in England and on the Continent—dynamite is nitro-glycerine absorbed into some more inert base—if a person is going to trade in dynamite he must first have nitro-glycerine—I believe you can make nitro-glycerine from acids not commercially pure, but it would not be so good.

AUGUSTE DUPRE . I am professor of chemistry at Westminster Hospital—I give advice to the Home Office about explosive substances—on 5th April I received a bottle labelled "A" and a bottle or bag labelled "B"—one contained nitro-glycerine of the strongest kind, but not washed sufficiently pure—it was an explosive, it was as strong as it could be—the other bottle contained a very dilute solution of nitric and sulphuric acid—I agree with the statement of Colonel Majendie as to what was found in the house, Ledsam Street, Birmingham—I went there with him—nitro-glycerine is the most powerful explosive which can be practically used—there are others more powerful, but they are so dangerous you cannot handle them—here is an entry in this book (found at Whitehead's): "A. S. 12"—I hold that to mean "acid sulphuric 12," and this "6 A. N." I read "acid nitric," "Gr. = 2" I read "gravity equals 2," "C. P. 3" I cannot make out, "1 A. 1.47" I take to be "nitric acid of the specific gravity of 1.47," the next is "3 S. A.," that is "sulphuric acid 1.66," that would be rather weak—temperature 450 would be the temperature to which you could carry the nitro-glycerine in manufacture, the utmost limit—I do not know what "soak 5" means—I agree with Colonel Majendie as to the powerful effects that nitro-glycerine would have in destroying property—200lb. would destroy almost any building—the proportions given here are those given in some manuals—I do not know whether this is "G. V." or "G. 2," but "Gly. 2." would be the exact proportion.

Cross-examined by MR. WAITE. I have the proportions of other things, such as gun-cotton—but this is what I guess, because it corresponds exactly with what is put in some manuals as the composition of nitro-glycerine—I should be surprised to find that it meant anything else—nitro-gelatine is stronger than nitro-glycerine, it is nitro-glycerine altered by the addition of a little collodion cotton—for some purposes nitro-glycerine is infinitely more powerful than gunpowder, for other puposes it is not—I suppose it was destroyed because it was dangerous, I had nothing to do with that—I should say 20,000 tons are manufactured in England and on the Continent.

By the COURT. In making nitro-glycerine it is desirable to use the strongest acids, the nitro-glycerine floats on the acids and is ladled off and then washed, but the great bulk of acid is removed first, it sinks in water and the water is poured off.

This being the-case for the Prosecution, MR. CLARKE, on behalf of Thomas Gallagher, submitted that there was no evidence to go to the Jury in support of the Second and Third Counts of the indictment. Prior to the Treason Felony Act, and under the Statute of Edward Ill., the question of what amounted to "a levying of war" had often come before the Courts for judicial decision, and the current of the authorities substantially amounted to this, that there must be numbers arrayed for the purpose of opposing the forces of the Crown, and a premeditated design of conflict with the Royal forces. These elements were essential to the crime of levying war against the Crown, and he contended that they were wholly wanting in this case. He referred at some length to Coke's Institutes, vol. 3, p. 9 (Rex v. Dammarree); Hale's Pleas of the Crown, 149; Foster's Crown Law, c. 2, p. 208; the State Trials, vol. 15, p. 522, and vol. 24, p. 902; and Reg. v. Frost, 9, Carrington and Payne, p. 161.

The LORD CHIEF JUSTICE. "I am of opinion that there is nothing in the point which has been very ingeniously put before us by MR. CLARKE. I do

not at all doubt that there must be something that comes within the fair construction, of the words 'levying of war.' To make out this indictment against the prisoners at the bar, they must be proved to have been guilty of something which, without violence of language, would come within the words 'levying of war.' The words 'levying of war' are words general and descriptive. It is obvious that war may be levied in very different ways, and by very different means, in different ages of the world. And the judges have never attempted to say that there could not be a 'levying of war' in any other way than in the way brought before them in earlier times. They have never professed or attempted to give any exhaustive definition, or to say that there were certain modes in which the words of the statute should be interpreted, or that those were the only fashions of making war. I am of opinion that it is enough to say, in this case, if the Jury should be of opinion that the prisoners, or any of item have agreed among themselves that some one, of them should destroy the property of the Crown, and destroy or endanger the lives of the Queen's subjects by explosive materials, such as it is suggested lives been made use of; and if they should be further of opinion that such acts have been made out then the prisoners are guilty of treason-felony within the meaning of this Act. I agree that we are thrown back to the words of the earlier statute; but they must receive a reasonable interpretation. As I suggested in the course of the argument, if three men with these explosive materials did the same acts with the same objects as it required 3,000 men to do in an earlier period, when it was a 'levying of war,' it seems to me that the acts of the three men to-day are equally a 'levying of war.'"

MR. ROWLANDS (in MR. MATTINSON'S absence, for Bernard Gallagher) also submitted that there was not sufficient evidence as to him, and Ansburgh on his own behalf contended that fare was no evidence against him. The LORD CHIEF JUSTICE held that in both cases the evidence must he submitted to the Jury.

Whitehead's Defence. "My lords and gentlemen of the Jury, I deny the treason-felony and conspiracy, and I am not guilty of either. I hold that the evidence against me does not in any way support the charge of treason-felony or conspiracy. Take all the evidence, both true and false, and I hold there is no particle in all of it combined, to prove that I intended to compass, imagine, invent, devise, or intend to depose the Queen from her Royal authority as Queen of Great Britain. I hold there is no particle of evidence to prove the charge that I intended to levy war against on 8th February I rented the premises, 128, Ledsam Street, that I paid 1l. in advance according to usual custom, and the remainder of the rent at the expiration of the month. The second witness states that in the beginning of last February I purchased some oil, acid, colours, glycerine, brushes and various other articles, and that I paid for them. The next states that I purchased some acids from Judson and Son, and that they were paid for and delivered. The next that I bought some pottery ware in Birmingham, and that was also paid for by me. The next, that I purchased oil, glycerine, turpentine, and other stuff, which was delivered, and I paid for it. The boy who stated that he attended my shop has told you that one day he heard a noise, he thought that it sounded something like a gun or a pistol; it was in the back premises, and that he went there, but saw no gun or pistol; and on another occasion he said that he

saw a man come into my shop, and go into the back shop, and he did not see him come out again. He saw that he had a valise, and that was all. The next witness said that he bought a brush of me, and paid me for it, and that when he did so he saw that my finger nails were discoloured; that I wore two suits of clothes. The next witness states that the copy of a telegram was found in a telegraph office in London, addressed to White-head. That is not treason-felony. The next witness states that there was an explosive substance found in Ledsam Street; but they do not suppose—that I intended to destroy any public buildings, or to take away the lives of any people by the explosion of this substance. They say they did not know what it was going to be used for. It was not going to be used for any illegal purpose; there is not a particle of evidence to show it; there are hundreds of tons of nitro-glycerine made every year in Europe, and there is no particle of evidence that it was intended to be used for illegal purposes. The carman who drove the men with the boxes to the station did not know what those boxes contained. With regard to that man Norman's evidence, he states that he never saw me in his life before until he met me in Ledsam Street; that he never heard tell of me; he received from me a quantity of stuff that looked like butter-milk, he never saw anything like it. That is the only evidence against me to support the charge of treason-felony. I challenge any one to come here and show that I compassed, invented, devised, or intended to depose the Queen, to levy war against her, or to induce her to change her councils or measures. No, gentlemen, there is not a particle of evidence to prove that. No treasonable documents were found in my possession; no, not one. There are hundreds of tons of nitro-glycerine and dynamite used every year in this and other countries for mining purposes. Dynamite is made from nitro-glycerine. There is no evidence to prove that the stuff found in my possession was not to be used for mining purposes. There wan not one particle, one syllable, or one letter to support such a charge. The public press have exaggerated my case in every point. It has stated there were men in existence who were mad, which, undoubtedly, they would be if they intended to do what the press represented. But there is not one particle of evidence to prove that I intended to destroy life or property, or to levy war in this country. So I ask you, as gentlemen of honour, as gentlemen of dignity, and gentlemen of respectability, to give me a fair and impartial trial.

Wilson's Defence. I shall let my case go to the Jury as it stands.

Ansburgh's Defence. I am as innocent of these charges preferred against me as God Almighty is, which I think the Judges and Jury can easily see for themselves. The principal evidence against me is that of the clerk in the American Exchange. What does his evidence amount to? Nothing. He contradicts his own evidence. He distinctly states that there were three prisoners in the dock when he identified me at Bow Street; now he says six. He also says that he gave telegrams and letters to a young man who he could not swear to. But I happened to be the nearest in resemblance to him among the prisoners in the dock, so he swore to me. He also says that I was pointed out to him by a man named John Glanville, but I was not. There is no proof that I was connected with a treasonable conspiracy in England, America, or any other country. The only evidence is that I crossed in the same ship as Dr. Gallagher. Is that treason-felony? I crossed with a hundred other passengers,

and I happened accidentally to enter into conversation with Dr. Gallagher, as I had done with hundreds of others. I shall inform the Court how I made Dr. Gallagher's acquaintance. I was on board the steamship. I had a pair of opera-glasses, and I lent them, to several fellow-passengers, and I said to Dr. Gallagher, "Would you like to have a look, sir?" He said, "Thank you," and I lent him the glasses. I had lent them four or five times altogether. Dr. Gallagher told me he was going to London. I said I was also going to London. He said he was going to the Charing Cross Hotel, and that if I went by that way I was to call upon him. I said, "Yes, sir, I will." I saw no more of him until one evening I was in the Strand, looking in a shop window. I was touched on the shoulder by some one, and I saw it was Gallagher. He said, "Ain't you the young man that lent me the glasses on board the Parthia?" I said, "Yes." He asked me where I was going. I told him to the Gaiety Theatre. He said, "I am going that way." We went and had some drink. He asked me where I was living. I told him Savage's Hotel, Blackfriars Road. I gave him the card, saying, "I hope you will call and see me." He said, "I will call and see you sometime when passing by that way." He called a day or two after and told me he was a medical doctor, and had come to London for the purpose of visiting the hospitals. We talked of the City of London and so forth. He went away, and I never saw him again until I saw him in Bow Street Police-court. If that is treason-felony I am ready to suffer for it. I was taken to Scotland Yard, and asked where I came from. I said I came from America. They entered into conversation, but when they found that I said nothing that would convict me they threw the statement overboard and can-not remember it. I told Sergeant Williamson, in the presence of Inspector Littlechild, that I left America under unpleasant circumstances, and that I had come to England to try to make a living. They do not remember that statement, but Superintendent Williamson admits that had I said anything to criminate me he would have remembered it. There is no evidence against me, barring that of the clerk of the American Exchange. All the rest I have admitted. I think that is all I have got to say. My Lord, I do not know that I need say anything more.

THE LORD CHIEF JUSTICE here reminded the prisoner of the letter directed to Dr. Gayler.

Ansburgh. I never was in the American Exchange. I did not know there was such a place; if I had, very likely I should have gone. The witness says I look like the man he saw there. Is that any evidence to convict me on? The other says he gave letters to a young man he cannot swear to, and I resemblance him most of those in the dock. The Counsel on behalf of the Treasury tried to make out that Wilson and I were in connection. There was evidence of the cabdriver, but the Treasury do not wish to call him, that he drove to a certain place in London, and looked at a house and he said he did not like it, and then the cabman drove him to the rooms in Nelson Square, which he took, but this does not show Wilson's connection with me. I never saw or heard of him till I saw him in the dock. There is that additional evidence which might be called.

THE SOLICITOR GENERAL stated that there was such evidence.

MR. CLARKE called the following witness.

MARY GALLAGHER . I am the only unmarried sister of the two

Gallaghers—I have resided constantly with my brother Thomas in Man hattan Avenue for the last four years—he carried on the profession of a physician—I have never seen Norman, or Lynch, yet—my brother paid a visit to England last autumn, I understood it was for his health—he came over again in March this year for his health—he has never to my knowledge been a member of, or associated with, any club—he always spent his evenings at home—he had a very large and extensive practice—he was always considered humane and gentle in character—my other brother, Bernard, was always troubling my mother—he was addicted to drink, and he was always looked upon as having softening of the brain.

Cross-examined. Whenever my brother, the doctor, left to see a patient of an evening he always left word where he was going—he was absent in this country for about four weeks, and returned about a week before Christmas.

JAMES LYNCH (Re-examined). This is the sort of spring I saw in the box, but I did not examine it very closely—I thought there was lead on the end of it.


ANSBURGH and BERNARD GALLAGHER— NOT GUILTY. THE LORD CHIEF JUSTICE recommended to the authorities the conduct of the police, especially that of the witness Price.


Before Mr. Justice Hawkins.

28th May 1883
Reference Numbert18830528-621
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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621. JOHN ROBERT HARLING for the manslaughter of Henry Bently.

MR. HOPKINS Prosecuted; MR. BLACKWELL Defended.

ARTHUR WILDS . I am a chemist's assistant at 3, Britannia Terrace, Little Ilford—on Monday afternoon, 14th May, I was in the Earl of Essex public-house, at Ilford, about 2.50—a woman named Dennis came in the worse for liquor—the landlady refused to serve her, saying she had had sufficient, and she ordered the deceased, who was the barman, to eject her—he came to the front through the flap, and the prisoner pushed him and he fell—he called out "Oh! oh! he has broken my leg"—I went and looked at his leg and saw a bruise—he was then in the bar-parlour sitting in a chair, I don't know how he got there.

Cross-examined. I was in the next compartment, standing in front of the bar—I did not hear any conversation between the prisoner and deceased—the prisoner may have said "Let me help her out."

EMMA SEABROOK . I am the wife of Frederick Seabrook, landlord of the Earl of Essex—I was in the bar on this Whit Monday afternoon, the deceased was barman, and was there at that time—Mrs. Dennis came in intoxicated, and asked for some rum—I ordered the barman not to serve her, and to order her out of the house—she refused to go until she was served—he opened the flap of the counter and said "Mrs. Dennis, why don't you go home?"—he just pushed her on the shoulder—there was no violence used whatever—the prisoner said "If you push her I shall push you," and he did do so—he gave him a second push, and he fell and exclaimed "My leg is broken, he has broken my leg"—the constable came in and helped him into the bar-parlour—the prisoner and deceased were quite sober—the doctor came and examined his leg, and

found it was broken—he was conveyed to the London Hospital, and died on the Wednesday—he had been in our employ just four years.

Cross-examined. I could hear everything that passed between the two men—I did not hear the prisoner say to the deceased "Just let me take hold of her, I know how to manage her"—I swear he did not say so, because I should have heard it if he had—the deceased had been in the hospital for erysipelas for about three weeks, and had been out about three months.

GEORGE SERGEANT (Policeman K 370). On this Monday afternoon I was in Green Hill Grove, Manor Park, near the Earl of Essex, with Bryant—I saw Dennis, she was drunk, and walked into the Earl of Essex—I walked to the door and cautioned the landlady about serving her—she said she had refused to serve her, and she told the barman to order her off—I believe the prisoner could hear what she said—the deceased came through the bar, laid his hand gently on her shoulder, and requested her to leave; the prisoner stepped up and said "I will take her out," and pushed the deceased, and he fell—the deceased said "Oh! he has broken my leg"—I walked into the house in company with Bryan and caught hold of the prisoner and asked the landlady what she would do—she said "I will charge him, of course; he has broken my barman's leg"—I took him into custody—I heard the prisoner say something to the effect "Let me take her, I will take her out"—I cannot say I heard him say he knew how to manage her.

ALFRED BANHAM . I am a draper's assistant at 4, Green Hill, The Grove Little Ilford—on Monday afternoon, 14th May, about 2.45, I was in the Earl of Essex—the woman came in intoxicated—after she was ordered out the barman came from behind the counter, lifted the flap, walked round, and asked her to go out; she said she would go out when she had been served—he placed his hand on her shoulder and told her she must go out—the prisoner interposed, pushed the barman back—the barman again came and placed his hand on her shoulder a second time, and with the push the barman gave him the second time he fell down and said "Oh! my leg is broken"—the deceased and prisoner were sober.

Cross-examined. I was in the opposite compartment—I could see the push, I did not see everything that took place—I did not hear the prisoner say "Let me take her, I know how to manage her"—I can't say whether he did or not,

MILES BRYANT (Policeman K 283). I saw Dennis enter the Earl of Essex, she was drunk—I saw the barman come to remove her, he took hold of her by the left shoulder and told her to go out—there was no violence at all—the prisoner came over and said "You mustn't put her out," and pushed him at the same time in the breast, and the deceased fell down and said "Oh! my leg is broke"—he was taken into the bar-parlour, and the prisoner was then given into our custody.

Cross-examined. I have repeated all that was said between the prisoner and the deceased—if anything else was said it must have been said in so low a tone that I could not hear it—I never him say, "I will get her out, don't you touch her."

By the COURT. The woman was leaning on the counter, the barman came and pushed her by the shoulder, and the prisoner came and pushed him in the breast, and he fell on his left side—I only saw one push—I saw it all.

ARTHUR AUGUSTUS LIPSCOMB . I am house-surgeon at the London Hospital—the deceased was admitted there on Whit-Monday, 14th May, in the afternoon, between 6 and 7 o'clock—I found he had a fracture of the shin bone—I took him into the ward and put him into splints—I noticed nothing further at that time—that night he was very restless and next day he was worse, he was delirious, and he died late on Wednesday night or early on Thursday morning—the cause of death was exhaustion from the delirium caused by the injury—I made a post-mortem examination.

Cross-examined. I said at the police-court the fracture could not have been caused by the fall simply, his leg must have come in contact with some substance—it must have been caused by direct violence—the death would have resulted from the push if that had broken the leg—in my judgment a man could not fall backwards in such a way as to break his shin bone.

Witnesses for the Defence.

WILLIAM GEORGE MACKEY . I am a tonemason, of Little Ilford—I was at the Earl of Essex on Monday afternoon, 14th May—Mrs. Dennis came in, the barman came from behind the counter to her and shoved her with his two hands on her shoulder, to get her out—it was a hard push, not a violent one; he did not say anything—I did not hear the prisoner say anything, but the barman was going to shove her again when the prisoner got up and just shoved the barman, to stop him from shoving her—I was in the same compartment—the barman fell, he might have fallen against the edge of the trap-door at the end of the bar—he was standing so that he might have fallen that way—the woman had had a drop of drink, she was quiet.

CAROLINE SKIGGS . I live at 5, Priory Street, Bromley, and am the wife of James Skiggs—the deceased was my brother-in-law—I was in the Earl of Essex on the Monday on business—Mrs. Dennis came in and stood at the bar for a few minutes, I did not hear her ask for anything, nor the landlady refuse her—two constables came in and asked if she had been served—the husband said, "No, my wife has not been served, I forbade them doing so"—as soon as the constables left the bar, the barman took her by the two shoulders and handled her very roughly and said, "Out you go"—her face was towards the prisoner and her back towards the barman—he had her in this position (describing)—I was sitting opposite—the prisoner said, "All right, old chap. I know her better than you, I will get her out"—he went to get Mrs. Dennis away, the barman made a push against the prisoner with his shoulder, and he then pushed Mrs. Dennis a gain—the prisoner said, "If you push her again I shall push you," and he then pushed Mrs. Dennis again, and her son-in-law pushed the barman and he fell against the bar in the corner—I cannot say if there was anything against which his leg could have fallen—the barman got up without assistance and walked through the bar into the bar parlour—I cannot say he walked straight, he took hold of the cheffonier.

Cross-examined. Mrs. Dennis's husband went in with me and the prisoner—he was in the public-house at this time; he did not interfere—we did not think he would do so, they were customers of the house, and had been for years—I swear I saw the barman get up.

GEORGE DENNIS . I live at Little Ilford—I saw the barman put his

hands on my wife's shoulders with the intention of turning her out—my son-in-law, the prisoner, said, "Let me have a try; I can manage her better than you"—the barman put his hands towards her shoulders a second time, whether on or not I cannot say, and the prisoner pushed him; it was a pure accident, and nothing else.


28th May 1883
Reference Numbert18830528-622
VerdictGuilty > unknown; Not Guilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

Related Material

622. WILLIAM WEBSTER (36) and FREDERICK JOHN GOLDRING (22) , Feloniously setting fire to a shop in the possession of Webster, with intent to injure and defraud.


WILLIAM WILSON . I am a builder at Leyton, and am the owner of No. 4, Commercial Place, High Road, Leyton—Webster took that house at the end of March or beginning of April, at a rental of 40l. a year—he told me he was going to open it as a tobacconist's—he gave me a reference, I don't recollect the name, it was to his landlord at Tottenham—there was no fireplace in the shop.

HUGH BRODERICK (Policeman N 71). On Saturday night, 5th May, five minutes before 10 o'clock, I saw a light in No. 4, Commercial Place—the street-door was shut, I opened it and looked in and saw the prisoners there behind the counter—there was only a candle alight on the counter—I did not know Goldring before.

Cross-examined by MR. FRITH. The precise time was five minutes to 10 o'clock—I looked at my watch—I was in uniform—I did not look through the shop window, I looked through the door; there was glass in the door.

WILLIAM MATTHEWS (Policeman N 524). On Saturday night, 5th May, about three minutes to 10, I was on duty in the Leyton Road—I saw the shop No. 4, at that time the shutters were about four feet from the ground; they were suddenly raised to about six feet; they were revolving shutters—I went to the front of the shop and saw Goldring standing in a recess between the revolving shutter and the shop door—the shutter comes down from above, and covers the shop front and the door-way—I said to Goldring, "Oh, it is you!"—he replied, "All right, policeman"—I saw Webster, he opened the shop-door from the inside and said, "Are you on night duty?"—I said, "No, sir; but the night duty will be here in a few minutes"—I then left; that was about two and a half minutes to 10—I had seen the prisoners together at the shop on two occasions previous, during the week, between 4 and 6 in the evening; I can't say on what days—Webster had asked me to keep a sharp eye on the premises, as there was no person' there at night, and property inside—we had done so—the shop had been opened previously, but not after Webster took it.

HENRY SWAN (Policeman N 234). On the night of 5th May, about 17 minutes past 10, I was on duty in Leyton Road—I passed No. 4, Commercial Place; I saw a light in the shop, and then saw it extinguished—I then saw the prisoners come out, Golding first and Webster directly afterwards, and he locked the door and pulled down the shutters to within about a foot of the ground—I had noticed the shutters on the previous night; they had been up about. four feet from the ground—I was able to see into the shop by getting underneath, in the recess, with the use of my lamp—I could not see into the shop in the state they were

on the night in question—I went on jay beat, and about half-past 10 I heard of the fire.

Cross-examined by MR. BLACKWELL. I know that Webster complained of having things stolen from his shop—the shutters were always left so that we could get underneath and look into the shop—I could not that night—I was not on the beat that night—I might possibly have pushed them up if I wanted to do so—they were ordinary wooden revolving shutters—I don't know that they were out of order.

By the COURT. I did not detect any one in having stolen things from the shop—Sergeant Wilson made inquiries—the complaint was not made to me, it was sent to the station.

WILLIAM CHANDLER (Policeman N 291). On the night of 5th May I was on duty in the Leyton Road from 17 to 20 minutes past 10—I saw Goldring standing outside 4, Commercial Place—Webster came out at the door and looked out; he said nothing then—shortly after, as he came along he said "Will you take a cigar?" I said "Thank you," and took one—they were going towards Leyton Railway Station, towards Stratford—I walked with them about 50 yards—I said "You will have to wait some time now, as the up train has just gone;" Webster said "We are going to walk to Stratford, give a look out there, as all the windows are out at the back"—they went in the direction of Stratford, which is about a mile and three-quarters or two miles from the shop—as we were going along Webster looked back towards the shop three times—I went back to my beat—about seven or eight minutes afterwards I saw a flash of light.

Cross-examined by MR. BLACKWELL. I can't say whether either of them were smoking when they came out of the shop—we were giving a special look to the place at Webster's request previously, and he repeated the request on this very night.

Cross-examined by MR. FRITH. It was Webster who said they could walk to Stratford—I have a note of the precise words he used (producing it); it was made a day or two after, the same day I went to the Law Courts and gave evidence; that was the Wednesday after I met the prisoners—I saw Swan on the night in question; he and I were together, but he had passed on on his beat—Goldring was just on the footway outside the recess—Webster came out directly after, not half a second after—that was the first time I had seen Webster that night.

ARTHUR JAMES STEVENS . I live at Leyton, and am a porter at the Leyton Station—on Saturday night, 5th May, I was there about 20 minutes past 10—I saw the prisoners there—Webster did not come in at the door, he only just put his head inside—Goldring came inside—they were together—Goldring went to the booking-office to make some inquiry about the train—about two minutes afterwards some man came to the door and said "There is a fire up the road," or words to that effect—Goldring said "I wonder if it is my place," or words to that effect—I did not see where Webster was at that time; I saw nothing more of him—Goldring went off in the direction of the fire, towards Commercial Terrace—8 or 10 minutes afterwards I went out and ran to the fire; it was about 300 or 400 yards from the station—I saw Goldring there, standing in the middle of the road looking on; he was not doing anything—there were not a great many people there at that moment—there was no fireman there when I first went—I saw one policeman there; I

don't know who he was—the last train for Stratford was 6 minutes past 10

Cross-examined by MR. FRITH. There was considerable excitement at the station when the man came and shouted that there was a fire—the station is on a hill—the flames could be seen from the station—I have hoard that Goldring's father lives in St. George's Road—Goldring was not talking to Thurlow, the booking clerk, for 10 or 15 minutes, not while I was there—I saw him go into the booking-office, and I saw him come out—I should say he was not in the booking-office 15 minutes—I could not positively swear it, because I had no watch at the time—I don't know exactly where he stood at the time the man shouted out fire.

EDWARD SELMES . I am a gardener, and was living at Leyton Park on 5th May—about 9 o'clock that evening I saw the prisoners standing at the door of 4, Commercial Place—I went to a baker's named Smith in the Leyton Road, and at 10.15 as I returned I saw the prisoners leaving No. 4—I saw them come out of the door and go in the direction of the Leyton Station—I passed No. 4 about two or three minutes after, and saw smoke coming from the shutters, which were a little from the ground—I and Newling went and pushed the shutter up, and I saw the counter all alight—the flames appeared to come from underneath the counter—I remained until the men burst the front door open, and ran into the shop—the door leading into the parlour was shut—Anderson burst it open—I did not go into the house—I saw no furniture there—there were flames in the parlour, about the middle of the floor—the house was burnt to the ground.

Cross-examined by MR. BURN. I did not go into the house—I saw flames in the parlour when the door was open—the counter was all blazing underneath.

Cross-examined by MR. FRITH. I believe Newling was present when the door was burst open.

CHARLES NEWLING . I am a signalman in the employ of the Great Eastern Rail way Company at Leytonstone—on Saturday night, 5th May, about 10.20, I was in the Leyton Road, and saw smoke coming from under the shutters of 4, Commercial Place—with Selmes's assistance I lifted up the shutters, and saw flames drawing from under the counter—Anderson burst the street door open, also the door leading into the parlour—I went into the shop as far as I could for the fire, and saw flames coming from underneath the counter.

Cross-examined by MR. BLACKWELL. The shutters had been lifted up before, and drawn down again; I can't say by whom; two or three men were present—the fire was not visible when the shutters were pulled up the first time; you could not see for the dense smoke—Anderson went in before me—he was sober, I think—I would not undertake to swear that he was not drank; I don't think he was—I saw no fire in the parlour—I could not see for the dense smoke.

JOHN ANDERSON . I am a blacksmith, and live at 1, James Cottages, Grange Road, Leyton—on Saturday night, 5th May, about 10.20, I was passing? along the Leyton Road—I saw smoke issuing from the shutters at 4, Commercial Place—the revolving door was thrown up—I went to the shop door, and looked through the glass of the window, and I saw the counter well alight, and inside the window—I broke the glass with my elbow, and kicked the door in and went into the shop—the counter

was alight, and under the shop window as well—there were two separate fires—the door leading from the shop to the parlour was looked—there was a key inside—I could not open it, and I kicked it in—I was met with a volume of smoke—I lowered myself quickly, and I discovered that the back of the door was alight, a portion of the floor near the fireplace, and the wainscoting—the fire was au well alight; it had got a good hold—there was no fire in the grate, nor any lamp—there was no carpet or any chairs in the room, only a wooden table—I could scarcely tell what was in the shop—I could see a few pipes in the window—there were some boxes on the counter burning; whether they contained anything I could not say; they looked like cigar boxes—I shouted out as loud as I could, and I thought I could hear somebody up the stairs—I threw off my coat, and went in again on my hands and knees—there was nobody there—I told a man to go for the engine—shortly after my wife came for me, and I went away—I was sober.

Cross-examined by MR. BLACKWELL. I had been to Stratford with my wife that evening—when she came to take me away she said that I was either mad or drunk to go into a place like that, but she knows I was not drunk—I am sure I saw a table in the parlour; I saw no blanket—I have not seen any of the insurance people about this matter—I have spoken about it to anybody that asked me—I can't say what sort of partition it was between the shop and parlour—there were two distinct fires in the shop, under the counter and the window—the place was all ablaze—it had a good hold; it was paining rapidly; I should say all one fire—I did not stop to take a minute survey; I had to fly for my life—I don't believe the whole time exceeded five minutes—I did not notice whether the windows at the back were-open, the smoke was so dense.

Re-examined. Until I forced the parlour door open I had not seen any fire there—the side next the shop was not burnt, but when I forced it open it was alight inside—I should not think the fires in the shop were separate; they seemed all combined into one.

WILLIAM WILSON (Re-examined). The house had been built about two years—it is the middle shop of seven; the houses on each side are unoccupied—it consisted of two floors, the ground floor and one story above, no basement—there are two revolving shutters, one for the door and one for the window—the parlour is separated from the shop by a lath partition and a half-glass door in the middle; the shop side is match-boarding—there is about 2 feet 6 or 3 feet between the partition and the counter—there is a flap to open behind the counter.

HORATIO MILLER . I live at 2, Church Villas, Leyton—I am captain of the Volunteer Fire Brigade for Leyton and Leytonstone—I was called to this fire on Saturday night, 5th May, at 10,30—I was about half a mile from it when called—the engine was already out when I got to the station, and I at once went with my men to the fire—we got there a very few minutes after the half-hour—I found the house burning very fiercely—I could see that it was impossible to save the house, for the other two had caught, one on each side—the front part of the house was burnt right out, and the roof fell in—the two adjoining houses were saved—I should say about 500l., worth of damage was done altogether—I did not see either of the prisoners there, I should not have known them if I had—there was a tremendous lot of people there—I afterwards saw Webster brought there in a cab by two officers—after the fire was out I went over

the ruins and telegraphed to the Salvage Corps—I saw no traces of any furniture—the bade part of the house was not so badly burnt; the kitchen was nearly intact—there was nothing in there at all, no furniture or anything for domestic use—I saw no traces of any furniture in the front part, it would be impossible, it would have been consumed if then had been—two squares of glass were out in the scullery window, and the putty was out as well—after telegraphing to the Salvage Corps we did not interfere with the ruins at all.

FREDERICK COLE . I am a member of this fire brigade, and have been so five years—I received the call to the fire at 10.25, and got there 16 minutes after—I went round to the back, but could not enter—I afterwards went over the ruins—I saw no remains of any furniture or stock.

Cross-examined by MR. BURN. If there had been any I should think it would have been burnt—any fancy goods would be readily burnt—the place was in flames in about 10 minutes—I don't think I should have found any trace of a table; you might perhaps have found the castors if they were made of iron if we had sifted the ruins.

ROBERT DAY (Police Sergeant). On the night of 5th May I got to the fire about 11.30—in consequence of what I heard there I went with Black to No. 6, Melford Terrace, Park Lane, Tottenham, about 1.30 a.m.—I knocked at the door and inquired for Mr. Webster, and the prisoner Webster came to the door in his nightshirt—I told him we were police-officers, that there was a fire at his shop in Leyton Road—he said, "Afire, is there?"—his wife then called out from upstairs, "What is the matter?"—he then went upstairs, put on his trousers, and came down again—he said it had very much upset his wife, he thought her heart was swelling—I said, "I want you to put your clothes on, and bring your insurance paper with you to Leyton Road at once"—he went up again into the bedroom, came to the top of the stains, and said, "I suppose there is nothing wrong, I shall come back again, shan't I?"—I said, "Yes, as far as I know at present"—he then came down dressed in a few minutes, and left with me and Black—as we ware leaving I said, "Have you got your insurance paper?"—he said "No," and he went back and fetched it—we then went in a cab to Leyton Road—on the way he said, "I left my shop in company with a friend named Goldring, who had been assisting me to set the shop out, and at a quarter past 10 I, with Goldring, closed the shop door. I saw two policemen outside when we left; I also spoke to a policeman to keep an eye on the shop, and he said, 'All right, we know all about it, sir;' I gave him a cigar. Me and my friend went to Leyton Railway-station. I asked for a ticket for Tottenham, and was told the 10.16 train for Tottenham was gone. I then left Mr. Goldring and went to Stratford, and caught the 10.30 train for Tottenham. I got home before the public-houses closed, so that must have been about a quarter to 11. The shop was all right when I left it; I cannot in any way account for it getting on fire; Mr. Goldring did certainly drop some matches in the shop during the evening, but we remarked they were safety matches, and would not ignite"—we then took him to 68, St. George's Road, Leyton, close by where Goldring lives—we all three got out of the cab and went to the door—Webster asked a female who answered the door for Mr. Goldring—she said he was not at home and would not be at home all the evening—he said "It will be necessary that he should come with me, as we were the last two

persons seen to leave the shop before it was on fire"—we then went to the place where the fire was—I said to Webster "You see the place is all burnt down, and part of the next shop"—he. said "Dear me, yes"—I then said "Tour answers don't satisfy me as to the account you have given of the fire, as there are witnesses to prove the shop was in flames in less than five minutes after you and Goldring left it"—we then got into the cab again, and were just about leaving when Goldring came to the door of the cab—Webster said "Oh, here is my friend, Mr. Goldring," and we took him into custody—Black said to him "You will be charged with Webster with setting fire to the shop, 4, Commercial Place"—he made no reply then—he was put into the cab and both prisoners were taken to Leyton Police-station—on the way Webster said to Goldring "You did drop some matches. Mr. Goldring, in the shop during the evening"—Goldring replied "I don't remember dropping any, and you must be mistaken"—Webster said "Now, be candid, Mr. Goldring; you must remember dropping the matches"—Goldring replied "I don't remember dropping any; you must be mistaken"—when I took Webster into custody, after I had shown him the fire, he said "You had better be careful what you are about, as I am a respectable man and will make you suffer for what you do"—we took them to the station and they were charged and detained—this policy, these two receipts, and this insurance paper were then handed to me by Webster in this pocket-book. (The policy was with the Commercial Union, dated 26th April, 1883, for 100l., and the receipts were for 1s. and 7s. 6d. for the premium.)

GEORGE BLANK (Policeman N). I was with Day when Webster was arrested, and was afterwards present when Goldring came up to the cab—on the way to the station Webster said "I left the shop with my friend about 10.15; we then went to Leyton Railway Station"—Goldring said "That is quite right, it was about 10.15 when we left the shop"—Webster said he had known Goldring about 10 days—Goldring said "I can't account for the fire. Some one came to the railway station and said a shop was on fire. I then went back to the fire, but did not speak to a policeman or fireman. I had been assisting Mr. Webster in setting out the shop front"—I searched Goldring at the station and found on him these two circulars of the Sun life Office, with a stamp, "J. Goldring, agent," and this pawnticket for a watch, 10s.

Cross-examined by MR. FRITH. I told Goldring the charge when I arrested him; I said "I shall charge you with being concerned with Webster in setting fire to the shop"—he said "I know nothing about it."

Re-examined. On the Friday night previous to the fire, about 6.30, I was passing the shop and saw the two prisoners engaged in setting out the shop front.

ROBERT DAY (Cross-examined by MR. BLACKWELL). When I went to Webster he did not say "My wife is in a very distressed state; our child has been strapped up for six months, and my wife does not want me to go away from her"—he did not mention the child at that time; in the cab he said he had got an invalid child.

JAMES CUDMORE (Police Inspector N). I was at the station when the prisoners were brought there—Goldring afterwards made a statement, which I took down in writing about an hour afterwards—he denied dropping the matches, and then went on to say "I was at the fire, but I

did not sgeak to any fireman or policeman. I saw a Mr. and Mrs. Vincent, and assisted them to remove the goods out of their shop. I hope you won't detain me. It would not be any interest to me to set fire to the shop; it would be to Webster, as he is insured. I assisted to set the shop window out, and the boxes there were nearly all dummies. I should think there was about 3l. worth of property in the shop. Webster bought some pictures of me, about 25s. worth. I hope you won't detain me. I am perfectly innocent of setting fire to the shop."

WILLIAM DANIEL MACULLUM . I live at Leytonstone, and am an agent for the Commercial Union Insurance Company—on 23rd April I called at the shop, No. 4, Commercial Place, and saw Webster—I said "I have called respecting the fire and glass insurance to know if you are covered or not"—he asked the terms; I told him—I saw the state of the shop; there were a few things in it, a few boxes and parcels—he said the stock and furniture were coming in—lie agreed to insure for 100l., as mentioned in the policy—he paid the premium, and I gave him this receipt, and on the 28th I took him the policy, and he signed this receipt for it.

Cross-examined by MR. BLACKWELL. He did not appear anxious about insuring, not more than is usually the case—I was anxious to get him to insure—we are paid a commission—I may have suggested the amount of the insurance—I asked where he was living—he said "At Park Lane, near Tottenham."

JAMES HAWKINS (Police Inspector). On Saturday morning, 5th May, about 11 o'clock, I was passing the shop and tried the door—I saw that it was shut—I saw Webster inside—he came and opened the door, and I went in—he said "I wish to thank you very much for the attention you have paid to my shop. I have not moved over yet; it is hardly ready. I shall move over on Monday. I should have moved before, but I have a crippled child; we have to have a specially constructed chair to move her on, and I shall not be able to move till then. If you will continue your attention till then I shall be very glad."

HANNAH MARIA WADE . I live at No. 6, Mitford Terrace, Park Lane, Tottenham—Webster lived there with his wife and child about nine or ten weeks—they occupied one furnished room at 5s. a week—the furniture was mine.

GEORGE ABBOTT . I am clerk to Mr. Harvey, agent to the Queen Insurance Company, Clapham—I have known Webster about three months—about 3rd or 4tn February this year I spoke to him about insuring his shops, Nos. 3 and 4, Clapham Junction Lane—he said No. 4 was to be opened as a tobacconists and No. 3 as a boot repairing depot—he effected an insurance on No. 4—he paid me the premium, half-a-crown, and I gave him this receipt—the insurance was for 100l. on the furniture and stock at No. 4—the policy was never made out and delivered—when he gave me the half-crown he said it was the last half-crown he had—I saw the stock in the shop, but I did not examine it minutely—I should think it was worth about seven or eight pounds—it was cigars and tobacco principally—as to the other things I did not form any opinion—I heard of the fire about three weeks after he had insured—he was settled with at the insurance office.

Cross-examined by MR. BLACKWELL. I suggested the insurance to him—I said he had better insure for 100l.—I was not there at the time of the fire.

Re-examined. This shop and the one on the right were burnt right out—No. 4 was the centre one.

RICHARD AUGUSTUS FOSTER . I am clerk to the Queen Insurance Company, Gracechurch Street—I settled with Webster for the loss at No. 4, Clapham Junction Lane by a payment of 40l. on 8th March, and he gave me this receipt in discharge of all claims.

GEORGE GARNER . I live at No. 88, Winstanley Road, Batterses, and am fireman to the London and South-Western Fire Brigade—I was formerly a member of the Metropolitan Fire Brigade, and have been a fireman about 20 years—on Wednesday morning, 28th February, between one and two, I received a call to a fire at No. 4, Clapham Junction Lane—three shops were destroyed by the fire—when I arrived the fire was in the centre shop, No. 4, the tobacconist's—to the best of my belief, from what I saw, the fire originated in that shop, because the front was gutted—it spread to the two adjoining houses—it was a fierce fire—I never saw a fire like it in a shop—it came right across and caught the booking office opposite.

Cross-examined by MR. BURN. It was about a quarter to two when I got to the fire—I stopped there an hour and a half—I was at work from the hydrant all that time—I was the first fireman there—other firemen came in about 10 minutes with manual engines—all the three shops were then burning—it was spreading on both sides when I got there—I don't know the construction of the place—I don't know that it was one large place divided into three—they were three separate shops—one was a corner one, and there were two adjoining—to the best of my belief the fire originated at the tobacconist's—there was fire in the corner shop when I arrived—that was not more slight than the others—it was not completely gutted and the roof off when I got there—I swear that.

LEONARD PRATT . I am station inspector at the Clapham Junction Station of the London and South-Western Rail way—on Wednesday morning, 28th February, about 1.45, I was near the three shops in Winstanley Road—I saw the fire on my way home, it was in No. 4, the centre of the three, the shop Webster occupied—at that time I saw no fire at any other place—I went and fetched Garner—I afterwards saw Webster that afternoon, he called at my office and said he was given to understand that I saw the fire—I said "Yes"—he asked what state the fire was in—I said "It was the centre shop that was on fire, I saw the centre shop all in flames"—he asked if I could account for the fire in any way—I said I could not—he then said that he was given to understand that the fire broke out at the fish-shop, the adjoining shop, No. 5—I said there was no appearance of a fire at either of the other shops when I first saw it, only the centre shop—he then said it must have been the tobacco shop, the shop that he occupied, and he asked me a second time if I was positive that it was the tobacco shop that I saw on fire—I said "Yes," he said that it was insured—I said "What time did you leave the shop?" he said "I was rather later than usual, I left about 1."

Cross-examined by MR. BURN. There were no firemen there when I first saw the fire—I saw a Metropolitan policeman there, that was the only person I saw—I did not notice any smoke or flames coming out of the corner shop, I should have seen it if there had been any; of course about ten minutes later on they were all on fire.

The following Witnesses were called for Webster.

GEORGE JAMES JEFFREYS . I am an engineer in the Metropolitan Fire

Brigade stationed at Battersea Station, No. 56—on 28th February I was called to the fire in Winstanley Road, at 1.50 a.m.; it would take me about three minutes to turn out the engine, and about four minutes to get to the fire—when I got there there was one shop alight, the first shop on the right hand side, the fish-shop, not the centre one; I saw no flames from that when I got there—me and my men assisted in putting out the fire—there was no other fireman at work when I got there; I did not see any railway firemen, I saw one afterwards, he had got his hose out from the station—I have been a good many years in the brigade—Captain Shaw puts me down as an experienced fireman—in my opinion this fire broke out in the fish shop, the corner shop.

Cross-examined. I could not say when I got there whether there were two or three shops, because they looked like one shop—they were not all alight, only one end—nobody lives in the shops, they are shut up and left when business is over—they are one-floor shops—I say the fire originated in the fish shop, because the fire was there when I got there; a stranger called me, no one connected with the railway—the fire very nearly destroyed the two shops, the second shop was supposed to be Webster's; the roof was not destroyed altogether.

Re-examined. It was like one large shop divided into three.

HENRY WALLIS . I am a coachman to the Metropolitan Fire Brigade—I went with the engine to this fire in Winstanley Road—I got there about 1.56 or 1.57, between the minutes—the first shop I saw burning was the little fish shop at the corner; that was well alight, the flames coming across the road; the second shop was not so much alight as the first, but it was too warm to get across to see—I saw no other fireman there, we were the first—it was about 10 minutes before any other fireman appeared, and then I did not see him, I only saw the hose—no other fireman was at work when we got there—I could not form an idea as to where the fire broke out; the most of the fire was at the corner, where we first got to work; I should think that was where it broke out—I have seen a great many fires—I made no report about the fire.

WILLIAM BRIDGES . I went to work at Webster's place in the Leyton Road on 3rd May, paper-hanging—I saw the prisoners both there that day attending to the shop-window—I saw some boxes of cigars there, some meerschaum pipes and silver-mounted ferrules, and malacca canes and ladies' workcases, or something in shiny leather; they were being brought into the shop, and some were unpacked; they came in boxes and cases, wrapped in brown paper, and tied with string—the wrappings were all thrown under the counter in the shop, and there was about a sack and a half of shavings—I saw the carpenter making them in doing the shop fittings—they were in the way—Webster was getting rid of them—I proposed that they should be left for me to make my size hot, and I asked him to sweep them in a corner under the counter.

Cross-examined. Mr. Webster brought in the parcels; some on Thursday, some on Friday, and some on Saturday—I saw no dummies—I saw some of the cigar boxes opened, as many as five—Mr. Webster was robbed, and I was the man that stole them—at first he did not accuse me—I had two or three cigars given me—he opened five boxes of cigars to show me the value of them—he said they had taken a paltry box, and if they had known these they would have taken them—I was not working for him at the-paperhanging, but for Mr. Wilson, a

builder—I said "I hope you don't accuse me of stealing the cigars"—he said "No, but it is a funny thing I should lose only one box, with workmen about the premises."

HENRY JONES . I am a gasfitter—on 5th May I was at the prisoner's shop about 4.30, previous to the fire; it was in a dilapidated state, smothered in shavings and straw; they were fitting out the window with cigars, pipes, and various articles—I saw from 200 to 300 cigar boxes, some open, some full; about 200 pipes, and various other articles; silver-plated knives and forks, ladies companions, pictures, and other things, fancy articles; they were opened I suppose just as they came in, and laid about the counter ready to be put in the window for show—there was a lot of shavings, paper, straw, and string under the counter—there were three shelves in front of the window, with looking-glass, about 10 feet long and 7 inches wide; and there was a piece of glass at the left side about 18 inches by 12 inches.

Cross-examined. Those were shop fittings, silvered glass; the tops of the shelves were covered with green baize—I don't know what dummies are—I saw about half a dozen boxes of cigars opened—I don't know where they came from—I went there first on 30th April—I had not been inside the parlour, but I looked through the window on the day of the fire—I saw no table there.

ROBERT WHITE VINCENT . I am a grocer—I occupy 1, Commercial Place—I know Webster—I went to his shop a day or two before he had his cigar box stolen, about a fortnight before the fire—there was nothing in the shop then—they were putting in the window boards—I went in later and then saw lots of things, and I had lots of things of his in my place minding for him, pipes, and ladies companions, fancy goods—I cannot fix the date—he fetched them away before the fire.

Cross-examined. I did not see any one delivering goods there—the things I saw were worth more than 2l.—there was a large leather case trimmed with silk, and silver knives and forks; I should think they were worth 5l.—the things were left with me a week or so before the fire, and were fetched away about two days before—he left them with me to mind so that they should not be stolen—he asked me to lend him one of my dogs to mind his place, but instead of doing that I took charge of the things for him; they were special things to be taken care of—there were two boxes of cigars that would hold 100 each, a whist case, and about a dozen silver knives and forks, some sardine openers, and a lot of broken pipes—I afterwards saw the things in his window—I saw no table in the parlour or any furniture.

Witnesses for the defence of Goldring.

ROBERT WHITE VINCENT (Re-examined). I live at 1, Commercial Place, Leyton—Goldring was always in and out of my shop—some two days before the fire he was in my shop, and Webster came in and said some one had done him a kindness and helped himself to a box of cigars—they did not speak to one another—Goldring was waiting for some one to serve him—I am a grocer—we all three entered into conversation—I asked him how it happened, and he said some one had broken open the inside door—I was not present at any introduction of Webster to Goldring—the first time Goldring spoke to Webster he said, "Will you allow me to come in and have a look?"—Webster said "Certainly," and they both left the shop together—I followed directly after—their manner was

that of perfect strangers—after that meeting, and before the fire, I was talking to Webster, and showing him how he should put a shelf round his shop, and he asked me what Goldring was—I said "A clerk, why? what makes you ask?"—he said, "Because he was talking about taking one of my rooms"—that was all that passed—on the night of the fire I saw Hormer and his wife—Goldring helped me move a lot of things away from the fire—I have known him about 16 months, he was living in the neighbourhood before I went there—I had not known Webster before he came into the neigbourhood.

Cross-examined. Goldring was a solicitor's clerk—he had no experience of setting out a tobacconist's shop—he had helped me set out my window with jams and sugar, and so forth—when I heard the box of cigars had been stolen I went and saw the place which had been broken into—it was a little cupboard underneath the counter—there were some cigar boxes in there, and as they were stacked it looked as if one had gone—the top of the cupboard had been broken.

HATTY CLARK . I live at Leyton—I saw Goldring about 9.45 on 5th May, he came round to my sister's house and remained about three minutes—I made an appointment to meet him at the corner of Webster's shop about 10.

Cross-examined. Our house is about 10 minutes' walk from the shop that was burnt.

Re-examined. I had to see a friend off by the 10 o'clock train, before meeting him, and I should have to come back to do so.

WILLIAM WILKINS . I am an assistant to Mr. Vincent—I was at the fire about 10 p.m. on the night of 5th May—I lifted up the shutter and could not see any names at all in the shop, only smoke—I cannot say for certain as to the time—smoke was coming between the shutters at the top, but I could not see any flames coming out of the front—the day before the fire I passed Webster's shop in the afternoon taking goods out, and repassed in the evening on my way home about 9.45—Webster was standing against the door—I had some conversation with him till about 10.10, and then I saw him throw the candle behind the counter after giving it a blow, he meant to put it out; directly he turned his back I saw a light under there, behind myself—I told Webster and he trod on it—the light was directly where the fire broke out, behind the counter—I was only standing against the door.

Cross-examined by MR. BLACKWELL. The candle when alight was on the shelf behind the counter at the side of the wall—the prisoner took it in his hand and blew it out and threw it down—I am quite sure I saw him throw it down—I was standing against the shop door, which was open—I could not see any fire after he stamped on it—I did not look behind the counter afterwards—I looked behind me and saw it was all right.

Cross-examined by MR. POLAND. Webster went behind the counter to blow the candle out—we had both been standing against the door talking outside—I said I could not wait any longer as I had to go to Plaistow, and he said he had to go to Stratford and Plaistow, and we would go together—I did not see a candlestick—I will not swear there was not one—he did not have the candle in his hand—I don't know if he had it on a piece of wood or not—he threw it underneath the counter—he put his mouth to the candle and blew it—I did not see any shavings behind the

counter—I did not go there—I don't know if the light I saw was the candle burning, or if it had set fire to anything—I said "Good gracious me! why don't you put the light out?"

Re-examined. I mentioned it to my parents and master—this is the first time I have been cross-examined in a Court of Justice—he just took hold of the candle like that and threw it just behind the counter—the candle seemed to be standing on a piece of wood—I could not see what it was.

By the COURT. I should take the light I saw afterwards to be a candle light—I saw it shining on the opposite side of the counter, not on the back of the counter.

WILLIAM COLLINS . I live at the Maud Road, Leyton—I saw Goldring on the night of the fire about 20 minutes to 10 close by the shop that was burnt, coming out of Mr. Vincent's shop at the corner—I next saw him about a quarter to 11 in front of Vincent's shop and in front at the fire; he was doing nothing, simply standing outside the shop—he walked with me towards the station; I left him to go to the station, and he said he would return presently—I saw him about 10 minutes afterwards by the fire again, and we walked into Mr. Vincent's back parlour—I saw him several times after that up to 2.30 on the Sunday morning, when he left my place, which he had come to at about 1.30—we were smoking and talking—Cartwright was there.

GEORGE CARTWRIGHT . I live at Beaconsfield Road, Leyton—I saw Goldring on the night of the fire with Collins—I saw him when he was arrested—he assisted me to move Mr. Vincent's goods out of his house into Mr. Byas's—I am a lawyer's clerk at Messrs. King and Peto's.

Goldring received an excellent character.

WEBSTER.— GUILTY Five Years' Penal Servitude.


Before Robert Malcolm Kerr, Esq.

28th May 1883
Reference Numbert18830528-623
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

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623. ELLEN HOLMES (50) , Feloniously wounding Mary Connell, with intent to do her grievous bodily harm.

MR. W. A. B. CULPEPER Prosecuted.

MARY CONNELL . I live in Eagle Street, Canning Town—the prisoner lives next door to me—at 11.15 on 18th May I went across the road for two candles—when I came back Mr. and Mrs. Holmes were standing on the doorstep—Mr. Holmes called me a dirty Irish thing; I said to him "Don't interfere with me, I am not interfering with you"—the prisoner said "Can you use anything like this?" and she dug a knife in my eye—I was putting up my hands, and she cut me across the wrist and gave me a slight stab in the shoulder—I had done nothing to cause this—she was always kind and civil to me before—I sent for a constable, and she was taken in charge.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. You stabbed me with a knife.

MARY DAVIS . I live at 10, Eagle Street—I was standing by the street door, next door to the prisoner—I asked Mary Connell to get me two candles across the road—she did so and gave them to me, when the prisoner's husband said "You b—coward, I will give you top tonight"—the prisoner ran out and said "Can you use such a thing as this?" holding up a knife—she made a dart at the prosecutrix, and I said "She has got a knife"—she said she had stabbed her in the eye—

she gave five or six blows—I stopped her arm—she passed the knife to her husband inside the doorway—a young man tried to get it, but the gave it to her husband in the passage—the prisoner was then taken into custody.

Cross-examined. I could see you with a knife in your hand.

FRANCIS CRONK (Policeman 573). I was on duty in Victoria Dock Road—I saw a crowd, went up, and saw the prosecutrix bleeding from her right eye and the left arm—she said "I will give Mrs. Holmes in custody for cutting me with a knife"—I told the prisoner, and she made no reply, and she was given into my custody—I saw the prisoner's right hand was covered with blood—the wounds were afterwards dressed by the divisional surgeon.

GUILTY .— Eighteen Months' Hard Labour.


Before Mr. Recorder.

28th May 1883
Reference Numbert18830528-624
VerdictNot Guilty > directed

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624. FREDERICK BARNARD LEEMING (38) , Feloniously forging and uttering an original document of a Court of Record.


CHARLES PITT TAYLOR . I am Registrar of the County Court of Greenwich; that is a Court of Record, and exercises jurisdiction under the Bankruptcy Act—I produce the file of proceedings under the liquidation of William Woodcock—the petition was filed on the 25th January, the notice of the general meeting of creditors on 5th February—the forms were duly posted that day to 49 creditors—Messrs. Palfreman and Foster, of New Bond Street, were creditors for 50l.,—there would be a form of proof with the notice, similar to document "A," in fact that document was posted—no resolution was filed or registered, it fell through—I also produce the file of proceedings in Woodcock's bankruptcy—it is signed February 28th—Joseph Hickmot was a creditor trading as "Hickmot and Son"—on 9th March, the prisoner being an accountant, was appointed receiver, and on 13th March the order adjudging Woodcock a bankrupt was made—the first meeting was held on 3rd April at 12 o'clock—I was chairman—the defendant was present, and among other proofs he handed in the, document marked "A"—I examined it and saw an alteration he had made in the heading—the date of its being sworn was antecedent to the filing of the bankruptcy petition, and the words "proceding liquidation" were struck out, and "Bankruptcy" was inserted in a different coloured ink, and the initials of the Commissioner were perfectly fresh as if that had recently been done—I spoke to the prisoner about it—he said that probably the alterations were made by a creditor in ignorance, but subsequently admitted that they were made by his clerk—he said he wrote to the firm asking for their proxy—I registered the proof—I suggested that Leeming should be sworn, he objected to that—he asked if he might see me the next day to give me an explanation—I said I did not see that any explanation was possible, but I should be in Court all day, and if he liked to come he could do so—Mr. Jennings was there, a solicitor; he said to me in the prisoner's presence that he had come down to appoint the prisoner as trustee, he had already appointed him in 10 or a dozen cases, but after what had occurred, he asked me to adjourn the meeting—the meeting was adjourned to 10th April—on 10th April the

meeting was held—the prisoner was not present—another person was appointed trustee, and I communicated with the Director of Public Prosecutions.

Cross-examined. Mr. Goatley was Woodcock's solicitor—the person liquidating has to file a list of creditors and every creditor has to receive a copy of the notice—the Registrar files a sworn copy and I find a copy on the file—this (produced) is the copy sent to Messrs. Palfreman; here is the Greenwich post-mark on it, February 15th; it is addressed to Messrs. Palfreman and Foster, 9, New Broad Street—it says, "Form of proof and proxy will be found on the other side of this notice"—the meeting was on the 19th—this was not done by any one in my office, it was brought in by the debtor—they are sent out in blank to the creditors, who fill them up—they never could have been used in liquidation, unless there was an adjournment of the first meeting—the file would not necessarily show that—no proof could have been handed in on 19th February, because it was not made till the 23rd—if it was an adjourned meeting it would not necessarily have the chairman's signature—there are no proofs on the file of the liquidation proceedings—the meeting of the 19th collapsed, and there is no trace of any resolution—Mr. Hickmot petitioned for this man to be made bankrupt on 2nd March—Mr. Jennings was Mr. Hickmot's solicitor—Mr. Hickmot's proxies were Mr. Jennings and Mr. McCown; Mr. Jennings told me he was a proxy in the case and was going to vote for Mr. Leeming as trustee, and he had the proxy ready filled up—we occasionally allow proofs which have been used in liquidation to be used in bankruptcy, but an order must be applied for and obtained for the same proof to be used, but fresh proxies must be obtained—it often happens that the same document is found on the bankruptcy file, the same form filled up differently—we set out the 125th and 126th sections only—this document could not have been used without permission, and permission could not have been given that day—I could not have given permission, because it would be necessary to have a fresh proxy, and he did not ask for it—if I had been asked I should say the affidavit could be sworn and then it could be used.

THOMAS SMITH . I live at 21, Honiton Street, Newington, and am an officer to administer oaths in the Bankruptcy Court—this document bears my signature—it was duly sworn before me on the day it bears date—these are not my initials; they were not at the top when he swore it—these other initials are mine.

Cross-examined. It was sworn by Mr. Baynes, one of the partners, and it purports to be sworn before me—it purports to be a liquidation proof.

THOMAS MARK LEON . I am clerk to Messrs. Palfreman and Foster, of 9, New Broad Street, who were creditors of Woodcock's—this is Mr. Baynes's signature to this document—he is a partner in the firm—I filled up a portion of the proxy, took it to Finsbury Pavement, and left it with a junior clerk in the prisoner's office.

Cross-examined. It was either the end of March or the beginning of April—there had been a written request to send the proxy to vote for Mr. Leeming—this was delivered at his office a day or two before the actual meeting at Greenwich.

DONALD WATERS (Police Sergeant R). I served two summonses on the prisoner at 41, Finsbury Pavement on the 28th to appear at Greenwich.

CHARLES HUGON (Chief Inspector of Scotland Yard). On 10th May I went

to 41, Finsbury Pavement—the name of Leeming and Co. was up; the office was closed—I could find no trace of the prisoner—I saw the dead body of his partner, Mr. Cooper, upon which a telegram was found, in consequence of which I went to Albion Road, Stoke Newington, and directed McElliston to watch the house—I took the prisoner on a warrant the next day—I read it to him—he made no reply.

Cross-examined. I was not present when the partner fell down dead in the office.

NICHOLAS MCELLISTON (Police Sergeant 532 N). On the evening of 10th May I watched 106, Albion Road, Stoke Newington, and at 9 o'clock a cab drove up and a gentleman put a portmanteau into it—I spoke to him, and went with him to 26, Gordon Road, where I found the prisoner—I said "There is a warrant for your arrest; I shall take you to the station"—he asked me to give him five minutes to take leave of his wife, which I did, and I saw him take a paper out of his pocket and tear it in three pieces—I told him he must not do that—he said "It does not relate to the charge, you can have it," and he gave it to me—I took the portmanteau and found in it property belonging to the prisoner.

The RECORDER considered that there was no proof of any intention to defraud, and directed a verdict of


Before Robert Malcolm Kerr, Esq.

28th May 1883
Reference Numbert18830528-625
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown; Guilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

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625. EDWARD TOOMEY (17), THOMAS PROSSER (38), and CORNELIUS SHAY (18) , Burglary in the dwelling-house of William Davis, and stealing therein three coats, boots, and other articles, and 2l. 10s.

Mr. GEOGHEGAN Prosecuted.

WILLIAM DAVIS . I am landlord of the Belton Arms, East Greenwich—on the 24th April I went downstairs at 7.30 a.m., and found the landing window open—I missed an Ulster belonging to my wife, a pair of boots, 2l. 10s., and two coats, also some old piping—the window had been closed the night before, and the property was safe.

JOHN REARDEN . I live at 2, Mary Ann Cottages, Marsh Lane, Greenwich—I know Shay and Prosser—I saw the prisoners last month outside the Naval Hospital, and I told Toomey the police were after him—Shay was standing about ten yards off—Toomey followed me across—I saw Shay again at the top of Marsh Lane the same day, when he came round selling kippered herrings—he asked me to have half a pint of beer, which I did—he asked me to go and see if Prosser had sold his herrings, and I did so, and we had another half-pint, and we came up Old Greenwich Road—he told me there was an ulster and a pair of boots behind the shed, and I pulled them out and looked at them, and Prosser sold them—I did not ask them where they came from—I got 1s. 6d. out of the transaction.


TOOMEY— GUILTY **.— Eighteen Months' Hard Labour.


Before Mr. Justice Hawkins.

28th May 1883
Reference Numbert18830528-626
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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626. ARTHUR HOWIS SYRES (11) for the manslaughter of Alexander Syres.

MR. POYNDER Prosecuted.

CHARLES LEDGER (Policeman P 26). I was on duty at Peckham at

11.30 in the forenoon of April 12—the prisoner's mother brought the boy to me, and made a statement in his presence, which I took down—it is attached to the deposition—I read it over to him, and he said "It is correct: I bought the poison at a chemist's in Hill Street"—I accompanied him there—he took me to Dr. Butler's, and said that was the shop—we went inside, and in Dr. Butler's presence he said "I asked for one-pennyworth of poison powder, and was served by a boy"—Dr. Butler said he never had a boy in his shop to serve, and that it was three years since he had an assistant—the prisoner said that he could not tell where the lad got the poison from, but that he put the penny in his pocket, and told him to make haste home—he said the poison was screwed up in a piece of paper, like a farthing's-worth of sweets, and that he kept it in his pocket-handkerchief until 4 o'clock on Sunday, and that he gave it to the baby at 4 o'clock on Sunday—he said he bought the poison the day before, that would be the 10th, and he gave it to the child on the 11th.

MARGARET SYRES . I am the wife of Alexander Syres, of 5, Park Road, Peckham—the prisoner is my husband's by a former wife—he will be 12 next September—on 12th February I saw my baby Alexander die; he was a twelvemonth and five days old—he was taken with vomiting on the Friday, got well again on the Saturday, and on Sunday, at 3.30, it was taken again in strong convulsions, and at 10.45 on Sunday night, and died at 4.15 next day—in March the prisoner and his sister Ada were playing together, and he said to her "Yes, dear, he would have been alive only for my giving him what I did"—I asked what he gave it; he would not tell me; he only said what he had taken himself, and he had taken poison before—he said that he had given the baby the same that he had taken himself—I told his father when he came home what he had said—his father questioned him, and he repeated the same—his father said "What do you mean? is it any more of your lies?" because he is a boy to tell such stories—that was why I did not place any truth in his statement—he said to his father that it was the case that he had done it—he never mentioned about rat poison till he was at the station—on the Wednesday Ada was taken ill; that was the day the prisoner ran away—he did not come back all night; that was how he came to the station-house and had this charge made against him—I did not see him till I went to the station next day, when I went there to make inquiries—I asked him what he was there for—he said he had lost the money—I said he was unkind because he had beat the little girl, and then he mentioned the poison, and made the statement to the constable.

By the COURT. I thought the baby died of teething—I went for the doctor at 3.30, but he did not see the child till 1.15 next morning, but it had then lost consciousness—I had never seen a child like it before—it foamed at the mouth, and twitched at the mouth a little while, and then went into strong fits—we had no rat poison or poison of any kind in the house—he took some rat poison on the last day of December; I did not see it; he was not in my place when he took it.

JOHN L. HEMMING . I am a surgeon, of 98, Lower Park Road, Peckham—I saw the child on 12th February, when it died—in my opinion it died from a convulsion produced by teething—I did not see it die—the symptoms it displayed might also be attributable to any irritant poison, such as red precipitate or rat poison—red precipitate is never

used as a rat poison, phosphor paste is—I have been to Dr. Butler's shop—I saw some packets of red precipitate there—they were marked "Red precipitate, poison"—they were produced by Dr. Butler—they were kept in a drawer under the counter.

By the COURT. Red precipitate would cause the symptoms I saw—I saw the child's gums; it was teething—but for the prisoner's statement I should say the child died from teething—if I saw a similar case to-morrow I should say the same.

CHARLES ROBERT BUTTERS . I am a surgeon, and keep a shop at No. 75, Hill Street, Peckham, for the sale of drugs—I serve in the shop myself, and sometimes my housekeeper, Miss Foster, serves—no male person but myself serves—I have an errand boy, who merely comes twice a day to take the medicines out, at half-past one and five—I keep rat poison in a glass case on the counter—it would not be possible for the errand boy to sell a pennyworth of that and put the penny in his pocket, because he is never there except five minutes at a time when I am there—I do not make up the rat poison—I buy it ready made of a man I have known 20 years—it is labelled "Poison"—this will kill rats and mice—I keep red precipitate; that is labelled "Red precipitate, poison"—it is kept in a drawer under a desk at the end of the counter, close to the window—I invariably make them up myself—they contain half a drachm, and are sold at a penny a-piece—they are used for children's heads—one might be sufficient to kill a child 12 months old—on Saturday, 10th February, the errand boy was not alone in the shop at any time—I was at home at four—I might or might not have been at home at 12—when I was called down by the sergeant he said "This boy says he has purchased poison here"—I said "Nonsense"—the prisoner said "Yes; I bought it here at 4 o'clock on Saturday afternoon; I saw a boy; I asked him for a pennyworth of poison powder; he went behind the counter, stooped down, took something out of a drawer, twisted it up in a piece of paper, and gave it me, took the penny and put it in his pocket, and told me to make haste home"—now on that day I was not out at the time he mentioned—it is quite impossible that he could have bought the poison at my shop at the time he stated—I said at the time it was false—I do not keep any poisons under the counter—the bottles I use are kept on a shelf, and I have to get a pair of steps to get them down.

THOMAS WORTH (Police Inspector W). On 31st December the prisoner was charged with attempting to take his own life by phosphor paste—I questioned him as to why he took the poison—he said that his parents illused him, and he ran away from home, and he purchased the poison at a chandler's shop in Peckham Park Road—he said he took a portion of it and that he had the other portion in his pocket—I searched him, and found a piece of phosphor paste the size of half a walnut—it is a poison used for destroying vermin—that was retained by the police until the charge was disposed of, and it was then destroyed—the prisoner was discharged.

ARTHUR RALPH . I am errand boy to Dr. Butters—I have been with him since January—I never served in the shop—I never sold the prisoner any rat poison, or anything screwed up in a piece of paper.

The Prisoner's Statement before the Magistrate. "All I can say is I did it."

Prisoner's Defence. "I have nothing to say."


Before Robert Malcolm Kerr, Esq.

28th May 1883
Reference Numbert18830528-627
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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627. ANNIE MOORE (26) , Burglary in the dwelling-house of Henry Mitchener, and stealing therein two suits of clothes and other articles.

MR. GEOGHEGAN Prosecuted,

EMIEY MITCHENER . I am a wardrobe dealer, of 4, Wise Street, Battersea—I got up about 5.30 on the 2nd May, and found a window broken and some glass lying inside—I missed two suits of boy's clothes and four dresses and fur trimmings for a jacket—these are the articles (produced).

AMELIA BYFORD . I live at 62, Warwick Road—the prisoner was lodging at my house—at 11 or 12 o'clock on the morning of 2nd May I saw him with two suits of boy's clothing, a little frock, some white frocks, and a set of furs—these are the articles—she did not tell me how she came by them—she said she was a dealer in those things.

JOHN THOMAS YOE . I am in the service of Raymond Henry Chases of 56, Plough Road, pawnbrokers—this frock and boy's suits were pledged on the 3rd May by the prisoner—she also offered a set of furs, which I would not take in on account of the moth.

HENRY GEORGE (Detective V). I took the prisoner into custody on the 4th May, and told her she would be charged with burglariously breaking and entering 4, Wise Street, and stealing two suits of clothes, three dress costumes, and a set of furs—she said she was a dealer, and came from Manchester.

The Prisoner's Statement before the Magistrate. "I bought the things of a woman and gave 5s. for them."

AMELIA BYFORD (Re-examined). I do not know whether the prisoner was out that night or not—I took her breakfast to her at about 10 o'clock—she went out in the morning.

Prisoner's Defence. I bought the things when I left the house where I was lodging—I had no latch-key to let myself in, and of course when the went to bed and locked up the house she must be sure I was in the house—I could not let myself in without a key.


Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

28th May 1883
Reference Numbert18830528-628
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty; Guilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

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628. JAMES JOHNSON (52) and JOHN JOHNSON (39) , Burglary in the dwelling-house of James Brand, and stealing two coats, two pairs of trousers, a waistcoat, and a handkerchief of David McKenzie, and a shirt, a pair of braces, and other goods of Edwin Powell. Second Count, Receiving.


MR. PARKINSON Prosecuted.

SAMUEL MILLAR (Policeman V 119). At 2 o'clock on the morning of 22nd May I was on duty in Wandsworth Lane in company with Sergeant Cochrane—we met the prisoners walking along the road, James Johnson carrying these two bundles (produced)—I said "What have you got?" speaking to both of them—James answered "We have got our clothes, we have shifted our lodgings"—John said "We were both lodging up Tooting"—Cochrane asked them what part—James said "I don't know"—we took them to the station, and found in the bundles two coats, three pairs of trousers, one pair of breeches, one waistcoat, and one jacket—James was wearing the top coat—in the pocket I found the white shirt, an album, and a handkerchief—John was wearing a coat, three waistcoats, and another one he had in his pocket, and three leggings—I also found a clock in John's pocket, and he had on him two knives, and a pair of links, a match box, and a nail and pocket knife.

HENRY COCHRANE (Police Servant V 15). I was on duty with Miller—I saw the prisoners walking along together, James carrying two bundles—John was wearing several things, and his pockets were bulky, and I stopped them—I questioned them; they said they came from Tooting; I said "What part of Tooting?" John said "I don't know"—I said "Are these things all yours?" he said "Yes, some I bought and some my brother, a coachman, gave me"—he said his brother lived at Tooting but at what address or in whose service he could not say—he also said "We are shifting our address as we cannot pay our rent"—when at the station, in answer to the inspector's question, John said "I bought them six months ago in Petticoat Lane"—they were detained; I made inquiries and found out where they lived in Tooting.

By the COURT. This was about six miles from where the burglary took place.

HENRY WALMSLEY . I am a groom in the employment of James Brand, at Bedford Hill House, Balham—I live in a cottage in the grounds with two helpers—on 21st of this month I went out at 9.30 in the morning, and came back about 11 in the evening, when I missed the clock which had been on the shelf in the cottage—I went into the other rooms and found the drawers had been ransacked—I did not miss anything else that night—the following morning at 6 o'clock I saw at the police-station this album and match-box belonging to me—my room is in the front, it has only one window—it is a three-roomed cottage, and this is the middle room opposite the front door—the window was open, a pane of glass had been broken and a hand put inside and the latch unfastened—the window opens like a door on hinges—the clock was worth 6s. 6d., and the album 3s. 6d.—I never saw either of the prisoners before that morning.

By the COURT. The last time I saw the place was 6.30 in the morning, but my fellows were there after me—everything was safe then, and securely fastened up—I noticed this particular window.

DAVID MCKENZIE . I am a stableman in the same service as Walmsley, and live in the same cottage—on 21st May I went out at nine o'clock in the evening and returned about 12 o'clock, when I missed an overcoat, a black melton coat and waistcoat, and dark trousers; these are they (produced)—when I went out at 9 o'clock the things were safe in the house, and the house shut up—when I came back the window was broken open in the front room; my room is the back room, my window was all right—I don't know either of the prisoners—Walmsley had come back before me.

EDWIN POWELL . I am a helper in the same service—on the morning of 21st May I went out at 6.30 and returned at 12 o'clock, when I noticed the window was open and a pane broken—I missed three coats, four waistcoats, two pairs of trousers, two pairs of breeches, three gaiters, a shirt, a set of studs and silver links—I recognise them among this property—they were safe in my room before I left the house.

By the COURT. The window that was open was in Walmsley's room.

The prisoner in his defence stated that he was on Tooting Common and met his brother, who gave him to carry home what he could not tie up in his handkerchief, and that he knew nothing about it.

GUILTY .— Twelve Months' Hard Labour each.

Before Mr. Recorder.

28th May 1883
Reference Numbert18830528-629
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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629. JAMES ROBERT WADE (26) PLEADED GUILTY ** to feloniously uttering counterfeit coin, after a previous conviction of a like offence. He had been convicted 10 times previously.— Five Years' Penal Servitude.

28th May 1883
Reference Numbert18830528-630
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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630. GEORGE CARILLON (34) , Bestiality.

MR. PURCELL Prosecuted.



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