Old Bailey Proceedings.
11th December 1882
Reference Number: t18821211

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Old Bailey Proceedings front matter.
11th December 1882
Reference Numberf18821211

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Sessions Paper.








Short-hand Writers to the Court,








Law Booksellers and Publishers.



On the Queen's Commission of



The City of London,





Held on Monday, December 11th, 1882, and following days,

Including cases committed to this Court under order in Council pursuant to the Winter Assizes Act of 1879

BEFORE THE RIGHT HON. HENRY EDMUND KNIGHT , Esq., LORD MAYOR of the City of London; The Hon. Sir JAMES FITZJAMES STEPHEN, Knt., one of the Justices of the High Court of Justice; THOMAS QUESTED FINNIS, Esq., Sir ANDREW LUSK , Bart., M. P., and Sir THOMAS SCAMBLER OWDEN, Knt., F. R. G. S., Aldermen of the said City; Sir THOMAS CHAMBERS , Knt., Q. C., M. P., Recorder of the said City; SIMEON CHARLES HADLEY , Esq., REGINALD HANSON , Esq., and JAMES WHITEHEAD , Esq., other of the Aldermen of the said City; Sir WILLIAM THOMAS CHARLEY , Knt., Q. C., D. C. L., Common Serjeant of the said City; and ROBERT MALCOLM KERR , Esq., LL.D., Judge of the Sheriffs' Court: Her Majesty's Justices of Oyer and Terminer, and General Gaol Delivery, holden for the said City, and Judges of the Central Criminal Court.







A star (*) denotes that prisoners have been previously in custody-two stars (**) that they have been more than once in custody—a dagger (f) that they are known to be the associates of bad characters—the figures after the name in the indictment denote the prisoner's age,


OLD COURT.—Monday, December 11th, 1882

This Court was occupied during the day in finishing the business of the last Session, for which see the November number.

NEW COURT.—Monday, December 11th, 1882.

Before Mr. Recorder.

11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-101
VerdictNot Guilty > no evidence

Related Material

101. GUISEPPE ALLUTO (40) , Unlawfully keeping a common and disorderly house.

MR. GRAIN, for the prosecution, offered no evidence.


11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-102
VerdictNot Guilty > directed

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102. MORRIS GOLDSTEIN, Unlawfully obtaining by false pretences 1s. 2d. from Richard Sawyer, with intent to defraud. Other Counts for obtaining a like sum from other persons with a like intent.

MR. MEAD Prosecuted; MESSRS. BESLEY and AUSTIN METCALFE Defended. The false pretences alleged were that the prisoner had offered for sale at 1s. 2d. each Speedwell Sewing Machines, which it was contended were worthless, but it appearing that the machines would facilitate the operation of sewing, the RECORDER considered that there was no case to go to the Jury, and directed a verdict of NOT GUILTY .

11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-103
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

Related Material

103. ERNEST JOHN SHAPLAND HONEY (18) PLEADED GUILTY to two indictments for stealing, while employed in the Post-office, two letters containing a purse and other articles, of Her Majesty's Postmaster-General . —Eighteen Months' Hard Labour. And

11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-104
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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104. THOMAS MACKIE (24) to stealing two post letters, one containing money-orders, of Her Majesty's Postmaster-General; also to feloniously forging and uttering receipts to the said money-orders. He received a good character.— Five Years' Penal Servitude. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-105
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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105. MARION ARKLESS (41) , Stealing a silk and satin mantle, and within six months a quantity of trimming and cloth, the property of Thomas James Burrell and another, her masters.

MESSRS. GRAIN and BEARD Prosecuted; MR. M. WILLIAMS Defended.

WILLIAM OSBORNE (City Detective Sergeant). In consequence of inquiries I saw the prisoner at MESSRS. Burrell's counting-house on 16th October about 5.30, and in his presence—Mr. Kentish, the cashier, was present at the latter part of the interview—I then saw a number of the workpeople, who had made statements to me, which I took down in a book which I had with me—I said, "Mrs. Arkless, I have a very serious accusation to make against you; you have been stealing goods from this warehouse and selling them to the hands, and letting them go out without accounting for the money"—she said, "Oh, indeed"—I then said, "I have examined several of the hands in this warehouse, and they have made statements to me, which I will read to you "—I did so and said, "Those amounts have been paid to you, and you have never accounted for the money"—she turned to Mr. Burrell and said, "I have taken two, but the others I cannot remember"—I said, "I shall take you in custody; you will be charged with stealing these different sums"—she said, "Oh, forgive me, Mr. Burrell, I will be a good woman to you"—she was taken to the station and charged with stealing 24 yards of cloth—on the same day I went to her room at 141, Sandringham Road, the address she gave me, and found this mantle (produced), some silk dresses, a polonaise, a cloth dress, and a satin mantle—I showed them to her—they had been identified as having been stolen from the warehouse—she said, "Yes, but I can't recollect how I got them. "

Cross-examined. I did not put down the conversation, we have no orders to do so in the City—she did not say, "Think what you are saying, for I have been a good woman to you;" she said, "I will be"—on the way to the station she said that I could go to her house—she said that Mr. Kentish had been careless in his accounts, and I have heard that that was her whole defence at the police-court, and that he had been paid for things and had not entered the amounts, but I was not in Court.

THOMAS JOHN BURRELL . I trade as Peacock and Co., wholesale mantle manufacturers, at-14, Knightrider Street—we have 200 hands—the prisoner was three years forewoman of the cutting department, first-floor—the hands are allowed to purchase articles at wholesale price, and Mr. Kentish, the cashier, had a book in which he entered the names of the hands purchasing articles in that manner—when any one selected an article it was passed through into the entering-room, made into a parcel, and an entry was made of the purchaser's name—the article, date, name, and amount paid, would appear in the books—certain information came to me, and I communicated with the police—I was present on the 16th when Osborne came—I said, "Mrs. Arkless, I have a very serious and grave accusation to make; I find from the hands upstairs you have been selling cloth and receiving the money, of which I have no account "—she said, "I paid the money to Mr. Kentish; I own to two amounts, the others I don't know "—I think that was after Osborne had read to her from his notes what the workpeople had said—she said, "Pray forgive me, Mr. Burrell, and I will be a good woman to you"—this mantle came from my place, it is worth about 2l—these 4 1/2 yards of Ulster cloth are my property.

Second Session, 1882-83.

Cross-examined. We have no retail selling; any of the hands can buy—the prisoner has once or twice brought goods down to the counting-house as sold to the workpeople, and she ought to give the money to Mr. Kentish—she made one complaint about Mr. Kentish's entries—it was not her duty to take the money to him when she sold goods to the workpeople, but she did once or twice—if she took it to him it was his duty to enter it in the book—the entry she complained of was paying one of the hands in the cutting-room twice over, and he discovered that he had made a mistake—she did not say "Come home with me and you will find I have got nothing of yours"—I do not recollect it—I said before the Magistrate "Mrs. Arkless has always looked after my interests "—up to then, as far as I know, she had been a good woman to me—I cannot be quite so positive that she did not say "I have been a good woman to you," as I was very excited at the time—I charged her both with stealing my property and embezzling my money—I think I said "I shall charge you with selling goods and not accounting for the money," and she said "I have paid the money to Mr. Kentish," and then my impression is that she said "I own to two amounts; the others I don't know. "

Re-examined, Osborne read out the amount alleged to have been received by the prisoner from each young woman, and she said "I own to two amounts. "

EMMA REED . I am cook at Mr. Burrell's—I bought a piece of cloth of the prisoner for 5s. about five or six weeks before I was at the Mansion House—I paid her for it.

EDWIN KENTISH . I am Mr. Burrell's cashier—it was my duty to keep the ready-money book—I entered in it the purchases made by the workpeople, their names, the particulars of the goods, and the sum paid—I find no entry of 5s. from Emma Reed for some cloth in August, September, or October, nor do I find the prisoner's name entered in respect of a silk and satin mantle in any of those months.

Cross-examined. I may have made mistakes—I have no entry of Mrs. Lawrence paying me 11s. 10d. for 2 1/2 yards of cloth on 2nd February, 1882, but if I have given a receipt for it no doubt she did—this receipt (produced) is my writing—Mrs. Lawrence did pay me 11s. 10d. on 2nd February, and it is not entered; that is a mistake—I have some recollection of the case, and I asked the prisoner in October if Mrs. Lawrence had had any goods during that year, and she said "Yes; two yards of cloth at 4s. 6d., and I entered the 9s. then, but that is not this transaction—I am in the habit of paying about 250l. a week, and it is quite easy for a mistake to happen—I knew of the mistake of 2nd February before you called my attention to it—some circular cloaks were sold, and instead of waiting for the prisoner to collect the money and pay it in bulk I took it in different sums from her, and in each case gave her a receipt—I swear I did not tell her at the end that I had muddled it so that I could not get it right at all; I got it right—after the prisoner had paid me 17s. 6d. for a fur cape I did not in three days ask her for it again, nor did she tell me that she would bring the bill on Monday, nor did I say "You need not trouble, for I remember it, and have forgotten to enter it"—I have the amount here; it is 13s. 6d.—I do not recollect a workman buying cloth and getting a wrong invoice, neither quantity nor price being correct, nor did I say that it was Mr. George,

my assistant's, fault, and make out a fresh invoice—he sometimes received money and entered it—I receive from three to six of these amounts in a day, and always put them down at the time—the boy received them sometimes and I received them sometimes—the prisoner has been in the employment petting on for two years.

Re-examined. I invariably gave the receipt myself, even if the boy received the money—every person paying for goods, even in a proper way, would have a receipt, although it was not entered, therefore they could produce it if necessary.

MR. MONTAGU WILLIAMS contended that there was no evidence of larceny, as the prisoner was entitled to sell goods. The COURT considered that it was a question for the Jury. The prisoner received a good character.


11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-106
VerdictNot Guilty > no evidence

Related Material

106. MARION ARKLESS was further charged upon six other indictments with embezzling 4s. 6d., 1l. 5s., 6d., 5s., 9s., 16s., 3l. 12s., and other sums of Thomas J. Burrell and another, her masters, upon which MR. GRAIN offered no evidence, NOT GUILTY .

11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-107
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

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107. TIMOTHY SHINE (20) , Assaulting Cornelius Dulanty on 10th October and 30th November, and occasioning him actual bodily harm; also assaulting William Youngman, a police-officer, in the execution of his duty.


CORNELIUS DULANTY . I lived at 10, Horace Street, Marylebone, but have moved—on 10th October, at 6 p.m., I was coming home from work, and a man named Maloney caught me in front and tried to throw me through a public-house window, and the prisoner and Moore came behind me and struck me on the back of my neck; I was thrown in the road and the prisoner kicked me on my head and rendered me insensible—a riot had occurred before that, and the case was tried last Session (See p. 71), when I gave evidence against Maloney and others—in the next month I was coming out of my uncle's house, about 11.30 p.m., and saw the prisoner—a man who was with him said "There he is, go on"—I walked five yards and heard steps behind me; I turned round and saw the prisoner;' he made a blow at me with a carpenter's hammer, which was fastened round his wrist with a thong—I moved on one side and it caught, me on my shoulder—I tried to get it away and he struck me several more blows, one of which knocked my hat in the air—I caught the hammer again; several of his companions came up and I let go of it and ran into the police-station—Youngman and I then went to Horace Street and saw the prisoner—Youngman endeavoured to take him, but he made a blow at Youngman's face and threw him down—assistance was procured and he was taken to the station.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. I am sure you are the man—I knew you before.

WILLIAM YOUNGMAN (Policeman D). On 30th November, about 11.45 p.m., I went to 11, Horace Street to arrest the prisoner—I found him in the top back room and told him I had come to apprehend him on a warrant for assaulting me—he used a bad expression and said that I should not take him out of the room, and struck me on my jaw, and

when I got him out on the landing he threw me back and we both fell down the staircase together, and he bit my finger—he was very violent, and I had to get two more constables to get him to the station.

WILLIAM WALLACE (Police Sergeant D). On 11th October I received a warrant against the prisoner for assaulting Dulanty—I made every effort to find him but could not.

Cross-examined. We knew you well, but could not find you till after the last trial.

GUILTY .— Eighteen Months' Hard Labour.

THIRD COURT.—Monday, December 11th, 1882.

Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-108
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

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108. GEORGE VINCENT (24) PLEADED GUILTY ** to unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.— Nine Months' Hard Labour.

11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-109
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

Related Material

109. ALEXANDER McDONALD (26) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.


MARY ANN HOPSIMER . I am barmaid at the White Lion, Lambert Street, Whitechapel, kept by Mr. Grimes—on 1st December, at 11.30, the prisoner looked in at the door and went away and returned in five minutes and asked for three half penny worth of gin—I served him—he gave me a shilling—I put it in the till where there were other shillings and gave him the change—half an hour after he left I found a bad shilling in the till—next day, at 11.30, he looked in again—I was serving; there was no one else behind the bar—he left returned in three minutes, and asked half a pint of ale and a pennyworth of tobacco—he gave me a shilling—I said "This is bad"—he said "It is not"—I said "You came in yesterday and gave me a bad shilling "—he said "No, I did not"—I gave it to Grimes, who said "You had better be off," and followed him—the first shilling was mislaid.

ALFRED WILLIAM GRIMES . I manage the White Lion for my father—on 2nd December, at 11.30, the last witness brought me this bad shilling; I went out, and when the prisoner saw me he ran, I ran after him, a constable caught him, but I never lost sight of him—this is the shilling, I marked it at the station—the other shilling was put on the shelf and I don't know where it is; I know it was bad, as I tried it on a slate and it made a greasy mark.

HENRY MEAD (Policeman H 46). I saw the prisoner running: Mr. Grimes was following him, and a crowd cried "Stop thief!"—he was 100 yards in front of me; I ran and caught him and took him to the station, where I found this shilling (produced) in his pocket—I received this other shilling from Mr. Grimes—I also found 7 1/2 d. in bronze in his trowsers pocket.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . I am Inspector of Coin to Her Majesty's Mint—these coins are bad and from the same mould—a greasy mark on a slate is no test, but if the coin was made of tin or lead you could mark with it the same as a lead pencil—a good shilling would scratch the slate.

The prisoner, in his statement before the Magistrate and in his defence, said that he received the coins from an old comrade and did not know they were bad.

GUILTY .* -Fifteen Months' Hard Labour.

11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-110
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

Related Material

110. ELLEN WARD (54) and EMMA KING (44) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.

MESSRS. LLOYD and HORACE AVORY Prosecuted; MR. KEITH FRITH defended King.

WILLIAM HOLTBY VICKERMAN . I assist Mr. Danbrook, draper, at 96, Osnaburgh Street, Regent's Park—on 24th November Ward came into the shop at 2.30 for a pair of stockings and a card of Angola, which together came to 5 3/4 d.—she gave a florin in payment, and I gave her a shilling, a sixpence, and 1/2 d. change, and she left the shop—I passed the florin to Mrs. Danbrook, and she put it into the bowl—about 5 or 10 minutes after Ward left Gregory came in, and in consequence of what he said I looked in the bowl—Mrs. Danbrook turned the contents of the bowl on to the counter, and Dicker took a florin out, it was the only one there—Dicker took it out of the shop; I followed him and saw him take both the prisoners into custody—these (produced) are the stockings and wool I sold to her.

Cross-examined by MR. FRITH. I only saw Ward.

ALBERT GREGORY (Detective E). About 1.30 on the afternoon of 24th November I was with two other officers, Dicker and Brown, near St. Giles's Churoh, Bloomsbury—I saw the two prisoners walking together and followed them—they went into a public-house in Tottenham Court Road, and remained there about a quarter of an hour—they came out and we followed them to Osnaburgh Street—they stopped in front of the last witness's shop; King crossed the road and stayed up the street some distance, and Ward went into the shop—in about a moment she came out and made a motion to King with her hand, and then turned the corner into Ernest Street—I ran into the shop and saw the last witness; he turned the money out of the bowl, there was a counterfeit florin, half a crown, and two shillings, bad money, no other florin—I took possession of that florin and produce it—I said to King "I shall take you into custody for being concerned with the woman in front" (Ward was in front at the time) "with passing counterfeit coin at a shop round the corner"—she said "I know nothing about it"—on the way to the station I saw she had something in her hand, and Brown took from it this couterfeit coin, wrapped in tissue-paper, which was marked with the impression of the coin—she struggled and bit Brown's hand and made it bleed—she was searched at the station by Elizabeth Pickles, the female searcher, who afterwards handed me three more counterfeit coins wrapped in paper inside this half of a kid glove—at the station the charge was read over to the prisoners—Ward said "I don't know that woman"—there was no other woman but King there—I saw Dicker take some stockings and wool out of Ward's bag.

Cross-examined by MR. FRITH. There was a public-house on the same side of the street as King was standing, and not far off—when Ward went into the shop King crossed and stood not far from the public-house—when I arrested her I saw she had a single coin wrapped up in paper.

FREDERICK DICKER (Detective E). I was with the last witness on this day, and saw Ward go into the draper's shop; King crossed over the road and stood waiting on the edge of the kerb—when Ward came out, in consequence of what Gregory said to me, I followed the prisoners; Ward turned round into Ernest Street, I took her into custody—King was then about 30 yards behind Ward, walking in the same direction—I told Ward I should take her into custody for uttering a counterfeit two-shilling

piece at the shop round the corner—she said "I have been in no shop"—I took from her hand 1s. 6 1/2 d. good money; she said "That is my own money, I had it given me for change "—she was carrying this black bag; I took it from her and looked in it, and found this pair of stockings and the wool, this pocket, and her handkerchief.

Cross-examined by Ward. I did not catch hold of you and say you had bad money, nor did you say it was false.

Cross-examined by MR. FRITH. King was 30 yards behind Ward on the same side of the street, and in a position to see her taken into custody—I and Gregory were in plain clothes—King was arrested in Ernest Street—not a minute elapsed between Ward and King being taken into custody—King did not see me coming—she was walking, and was about 50 yards from where I first saw her.

Re-examined. I had seen both the prisoners together at St. Giles's Church, and had followed them with Brown and Giles—they walked side by side and went into the Talbot public-house—when Ward came out of the shop she held up her hand in that way—Brown is ill and not able to come here—I saw him in bed this morning.

ELIZABETH PICKLBS . I am the female searcher at the Albany Street Police-station—I searched Ward and found a key and pawn-ticket on her and no money—I searched King on the same day, and found three two-shilling pieces wrapped up in tissue-paper in part of a kid glove—I gave them to Gregory—when she came in the room she put down a sixpence and said "This is all I have got"—while she was undressing I saw her two fingers like that; I said "But you have got something in your hand, haven't you?"—I don't know where she could have put them, but she put her hands like that,'and said "No, I have not"—then I saw her with her two fingers like that again—I said "You have got something in your hand," and I went behind her and opened her hand, and took them from her—she said" Oh, my G——, I'm a done woman; for G——'s sake don't show them, for there is five years stares me in the face. "

Cross-examined by MR. FRITH. I have not a note of that statement; I am not required to make notes of statements—I am sure those were her words.

Re-examined. I went to the police-court the next day, and I said so then.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . This florin uttered by Ward is bad, and from the same mould as these other four.

Cross-examined by MR. FRITH. They are very bad imitations; they outwardly bear a very good resemblance to persons who know nothing at all about coins.

Ward in her defence denied changing the two-shilling piece at the linen-draper's, and said she had the stockings in her hand when arrested, and that she had no bad money about her.


WARD PLEADED GUILTY* to a previous conviction of uttering counterfeit coin on 28 th June, 1880.

KING was further charged with having been convicted on 10th January, 1876, in the name of Amelia Aulden, of having counterfeit coin in her possession.

ANN FLINT . I am a female warder at the Westminster Prison, and produce the certificate of King's previous conviction—I was not present

at the trial—I had her in my charge a year and 10 months, from March, 1876, in the name of Amelia Aulden, the name in the certificate—she had then been in the prison two years, and was in the laundry.

GUILTY.— Eighteen Months' Hard Labour each.

11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-111
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

Related Material

111. GEORGE LUXTON (25) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.

MESSRS. LLOYD and HORACE AVORY Prosecuted. LOUIS BARGEAU. I am a stationer, of 18, Wardour Street—on 27th November the prisoner came into my shop about 9.30 in the evening—I and my wife were in the shop—he asked for large envelopes—I asked him what sort he wanted, white or yellow—he said he wanted some white ones—I said I had only yellow ones—he said he did not want yellow, and went out—he returned two or three minutes afterwards and said he wanted some smaller white ones—my wife served him with a packet—he put a two-shilling piece on the counter—my wife took it up and said "It is bad money," and the prisoner took the door and ran away quick—he took the change and the envelopes, which cost 3d.—I ran after him and called "Stop thief!"—he was about 20 yards from my door when I got outside, and running—I ran after him—ultimately a man in Leicester Street stopped him—he struck the man and ran away again—afterwards I saw the constable take him into custody—I had not lost sight of him a second—he looked round as he was running, because I called out "Stop thief!"—I gave him in charge to the constable at the police-station—I gave up the two-shilling piece I had received—I can't say if he had any hat on when he was. running.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. I have said before that I took very particular notice of you, and told my wife to be very careful, as you looked a very suspicious man, and the week before I took three bad pieces—I looked at every person coming into the shop—you put the florin on the counter—you came in the second time about two or three minutes after the first time—I took particular notice of you when you entered the shop—I can't say if you had a hat or cap on, or if you had a hat on at all—I can't say how long elapsed between your leaving the shop and your being caught—when you left you had a packet of envelopes and 1s. 9d.

LEONTIN BARGEAU (Interpreted). I am the wife of the last witness—I was serving in the shop on 27th November at 9.30 in the evening—the prisoner came in and asked for a packet of envelopes—the price was 3d., and he put a two-shilling piece on the counter—he had been in before, and Mr. Bargeau told him we had not got what he wanted—I gave him a shilling and a sixpence and 3d. in copper in change before I took up the florin from the counter—I did not like the look of it—I took it up and said "It is a counterfeit one," and the moment I said that he ran out as fast as he could, and Mr. Bargeau after him—I went to the door and saw him turn into Lisle Street—I have no doubt about the man.

Cross-examined. The second time you came into the shop was two or three minutes after the first time—I had a good look at you and could easily recognise you—whatever coat you wore you did not wear it buttoned up as it is now—I did not pay any attention to your hat.

NUN HUTCHINGS (Policeman CR 22). I was in Wardour Street on 27th November, about 9.30, and heard a cry of "Stop thief!" and saw the prisoner running about two or three yards in front of a crowd of people, who were following him—he was alone—he had no hat on—I followed

him and overtook him at the corner of Wardour and Whitcombe Streets—the prosecutor came up and charged him—on the way to the station he tried to escape, and in the scuffle he threw some money away—one good sixpence fell down an area—I saw a woman pick it up, and she gave it to me—I then searched him, and found 2d.—I did not find any envelopes on him—when I first saw him running there was no other man running in front of him.

Cross-examined. You had no hat on—I might have run 50 or 60 yards before I arrested you—we were on the railings over the area—there were 100 people round us, I dare say, and you threw several pieces of money away on the pavement—I asked the people round to pick it up.

Re-examined. I received this bad florin (produced) from Mr. Bargeau.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . This is a counterfeit coin, very finely made, one of the best I have seen—it has been through the battery to give it a colour.

The Prisoner's Statement before the Magistrate. "On 27th November, about 9.30 p.m., I was coming in the direction of the prosecutor's shop, when I saw a number of people running, and some one shouted "Stop thief!" There was a man in front, who I endeavoured to stop. He knocked me down, and I lost my hat. I did not wait for the hat, but followed him again. Coming to a turning, I missed him, and seeing me with no hat the constable apprehended me, which I positively swear I never entered the prosecutor's shop that evening or any other time. "

The prisoner, in his defence, contended that there was no 1s. 9d. nor any envelopes found on him, but only 2d. that, as there were 100 people over the area, somebody else might have dropped the sixpence; and that, if he had thrown the money away, more than 6d. would have gone down the area.

LOUIS BARGEAU (Re-examined by the Jury). My shop was lighted by 14 gas jets—I never lost sight of the prisoner—I had a good look at him in the shop—I did not notice if he had a hat on.

GUILTY. Six Months' Hard Labour.

OLD COURT.—Tuesday, December 12th, 1882.

Before Mr. Recorder.

11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-112
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

Related Material

112. HARRY LARKIN (24) , Feloniously forging and uttering an endorsement to an order for 4l. 12s. 4d., with intent to defraud.

MR. GRAIN Prosecuted.

ANN BALLIS . I am housekeeper to Mr. Herapath, of 18, Upper Phillimore Gardens—he deals with Mr. Sandford, a butcher, of Newland Place—the prisoner used to call for orders—on 25th October my master gave me this cheque, and I paid it to the prisoner when he called for the account—he brought this book receipted as it is now, "Settled. H. L. for W. Sandford. "

WILLIAM DALLY . I am a licensed victualler of Kensington—I know the prisoner as a customer—on 25th October he asked me to change this cheque to save his going to the shop—I saw him write this "W. S. Sandford" on it—he said "The governor will not mind my signing his name"—I gave him the money.

WILLIAM THOMAS SANDFORD . I am a butcher—the prisoner was in my employ—he received payments from customers, but he had no authority

to endorse cheques; he ought to hand over the cheque or cash when he returned—this is not my endorsement, he has not accounted to me for it.

BARKER. I am Mr. Sandford's manager—the prisoner did not hand me this cheque or the proceeds.

HENRY OSBORNE . I am Mr. Sandford's book-keeper—the prisoner did not hand me this cheque or the proceeds.

ANNIE MASSEY . I am assistant book-keeper to Mr. Sandford—the prisoner has never accounted to me for this cheque, or given me the proceeds.

WILLIAM SHORT (Policeman T 440). I took the prisoner on 22nd November on another charge—I said nothing about the forgery.

Prisoner's Defence I am very sorry. It is the first time I have had anything against me.

GUILTY . Recommended to mercy by the prosecutor,—Two Months' Hard Labour.

11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-113
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

Related Material

113. ERNEST GOODWIN (34) and ALFRED JOHNSON (24) PLEADED GUILTY to four indictments for forging and uttering an order for a banker's cheque book; and cheques for the payment of 180l., 75l., and 185l., with intent to defraud.— Five Years' Penal Servitude.

11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-114
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

Related Material

114. ALFRED ROUSE (22) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin. MESSRS LLOYD and HORACE AVORY Prosecuted; MR. GEOGHEGAN Defended.

REUBEN WASH . I keep the Sun Tavern, at Starch Green Road, Hammersmith—on 20th November, at 11 o'clock in the night, the prisoner came in and asked for a glass of ale, for which he paid 2d. in copper, and I gave him a halfpenny change—about a minute after he asked for twopenny worth of bread and cheese, for which he handed the barmaid a florin—she immediately handed it to me—I saw it was bad, and told him so; he said he was very sorry, he did not know it, and immediately tendered a good shilling—I took it, and gave him the change—I asked where he came from—he said from the Mansion House to Addison Road, and then to Starch Green—I asked where he got the florin—he said the clerk at the Mansion House gave it him in change for a half-sovereign—I asked the amount of change. he had got—he said two florins, two half-crowns, and 6d.—I said that was not the correct change—he said he supposed the clerk had made a mistake—I asked his address—he said at first he lived at West Croydon, and then he said West Kensington—I lifted the flap of the counter to go for a constable, and he ran out—I ran after him and stopped him as he joined two men and a female—I saw him hand something to them—I gave him in charge, and gave the florin to the constable.

MARY ANN RICKETTS . I am barmaid at the Sun—the prisoner gave me a florin, and I handed it to Mr. Wash.

DAVID GRISTWOOD (Policeman T 209). The prisoner was given into my custody—I found on him four shillings, eight sixpences, and 14d. in bronze, all good—I produce the florin which Mr. Wash gave me—he gave a correct address.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . This is a bad florin.


NEW COURT.—Tuesday, December 12th, 1882.

Before Mr. Common Serjeant

11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-115
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour; Imprisonment > hard labour

Related Material

115. EDWARD BROWN (33) and JOHN ALBERT BROWN (19) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.

MESSRS. LLOYD and HORACE AVORY Prosecuted, MARY ANN BROWN. I am assistant to Miss Munday, a grocer, at Hayes—on 24th November, about 5.30 p.m., I served John Albert Brown with half an ounce of tobacco—he tendered this half-crown—I gave 2s. 4d. change—I put it in the till—no other half-crown was there—next day a Mr. Moses came about 9 a.m.—in consequence of what he said I examined the till—I recognised the half-crown—I gave it to Mr. Moses.

GEORGE MOSES . I am a grocer of Hayes—about 4.30 on 24th November I served John Albert Brown with a quarter of a pound of cheese—he tendered a half-crown; I rang it; I gave him the change—I heard the prisoner speak in the Court, and I remembered his voice—when he had gone out I examined the half-crown and found it was bad—I went to look for him—I gave the half-crown to the constable—before that I look it to the Hayes police-station—I did not put it in the till.

Cross-examined by John Albert Brown. You spoke to me in my shop—you had a good address and a gentlemanly way of speaking.

ROBERT LABOURS . I am a baker at Southall—about 7.30 p.m. on 24th November my wife served Edward Brown with twopenny worth of bread in my presence—he tendered a half-crown—my wife showed it to me—I gave it her back and told her to tell him it was bad—that was in his presence—I had been in the kitchen and then stood in the shop—I followed the prisoner—I heard my wife say "It is bad; you had better take it back where you got it"—he said he had sold his overcoat on the bridge and had the money for it—the bridge is a quarter of a mile away—Albert Brown and another followed the prisoner—Albert Brown was standing about a dozen yards from my shop—I saw the man not in custody come out of a linendraper's shop—the three went straight to Norwood Green—that is a quarter of mile off—John Albert Brown went into Smith's, the grocer's; the other two looked through the window—I gave information to the sergeant—I afterwards pointed out Edward and John Albert Brown to the police-constable—they were all together—Southall is two miles from Hayes.

MARY LABOUR . I served Edward Brown with some bread, price 2d.—he put down a half-crown—I showed it to my husband in his presence—my husband came out of the kitchen—I said "It is a bad one; you had better take it back again"—he said "I hope not, as I have sold my overcoat off my back for it"—the coin was returned to him—he went out, and my husband went after him.

Cross-examined by Edward Brown. I saw you pass about 3.30 p.m., and I knew you again—I saw all three together—there was a good light in the shop.

ANNIE HARRIS . I am assistant to Mr. Smith, a grocer, of Norwood Green—about 8.15 p.m. on 24th November I served John Albert Brown with a half-ounce of tobacco—I save him 2s. 4d. change of a half-crown, and put the half-crown in the till—the sergeant took it—an old half-crown was in the till—this is the one the prisoner gave me—I picked him out at the station the same evening.

GEORGE SMITH . I am a grocer, of Norwood Green—about 8.30 p.m. on 24th November Sergeant Norman came into my shop—in consequence of what he said I examined my till and found this new half-crown, which I felt to be bad the moment I took hold of it—an old half-crown was in the till.

GEORGE NORMAN (Police Sergeant T 31). About 8.30 on 20th November Mr. Labours came to me outside the station—I saw the prisoners and another man not in custody walking together—John Albert Brown was in front—I caught hold of Edward Brown and another man—we struggled; the other man escaped—I saw Edward Brown at the time throw something away when 1 had the two prisoners in custody—I searched the field the next morning just through the hedge, near the footpath where we struggled; I found the half-crown produced—I took the prisoners to the station, and then went to Smith's—Mr. Smith gave me a half-crown out of the till—I marked them—1 searched the prisoners—I found on Edward one shilling, threesix pences, two threepenny pieces, and 5d. in bronze; on John a florin, four penny pieces, and a hall-ounce of tobacco—Edward said he had no home; John said he had no home nor occupation.

Cross-examined by Edward Brown. I saw you throw something out of your right hand when I had hold of your collar—at Gunnersbury Station you said after you had been before the Magistrate "I have a wife and four children, but I do not know where they are "—you said nothing about selling your home to obtain food.

BENJAMIN TINGAY (Policeman T 107). I followed the prisoners with Norman; John was in front—I saw Norman endeavour to arrest the two men, and I ran after the other one—Labour pointed out John to me—I apprehended him—I said "You must go with me"—he said "What for?"—I said "For uttering counterfeit coin"—he made no reply.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . These four coins are bad, and from one mould.

Edward Brown's Defence I was inquiring for work, and met my brother a quarter of an hour before we were arrested. I never went into a shop to pass money, and had no bad money.

John Albert Brown's Defence. I was looking for work, and sold my coat to a boatman for the half-crown, and I had no work nor food. I afterwards met my brother, and went for a half-ounce of tobacco to change it.

GUILTY . EDWARD— Fifteen Months' Hard Labour. JOHN— Nine Months' Hard Labour.

11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-116
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

Related Material

116. THOMAS JOHNSON (28) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.

MR. LLOYD Prosecuted.

WILLIAM BETTS . I am barman at the Queen's Arms public-house, Holloway—at 10 o'clock on the night of 26th November the prisoner and another man came to the bar, and were drinking together—the prisoner called for a pot of ale and half a quartern of whisky, which came to 8d.—he tendered half a crown in payment—I put it on the top of the till, and gave him 1s. 10d. change—his companion drank the liquor and went out—a little boy then came in and asked for a pot of ale, and tendered a bad half-crown in payment—I gave it to the manager, who broke it in two, and gave it back again—shortly after the prisoner's companion came back again, and called for a pot of ale, I think—I don't remember what he gave in payment—I

did not see him go out—I was present when Mr. Ford, the manager, closed the door, and I saw the prisoner given into custody.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. I think the other man was in your company because you were drinking together—I did not see you come in together—I saw you with Mr. and Mrs. Wilson and Mr. and Mrs. Wilkinson in the bar—the other man had some of the liquor you called for, and some other person's liquor; you were all drinking together—I noticed you in the house about 10 o'clock—I will not swear you were not there from half-part 8—you saw me hand back the two pieces to the lad—you did not attempt to leave the bar.

Re-examined. I saw this half-crown which the prisoner gave me, taken off the top of the till by Mr. Ford.

THOMAS FORD . I manage the Queen's Arms public-house—about 10 o'clock on the night of 26th November the last witness showed me a bad half-crown, and I broke it in two and gave it back to him, and he gave it to the child—I went to the till and examined it, and found this half-crown lying on the top—I examined it, found it was bad, and sent for a constable—I saw another man there—he asked for some liquor after the boy had been in, and after I had sent for the constable—I had not told them I had sent for one—he tendered a bad half-crown—I said "Another bad one," and he picked it up and went out—he had been talking and drinking with the prisoner—I jumped over the counter, and went to the door and gave the prisoner into custody—I gave the constable the half-crown, and said I should give the prisoner in charge—I think the prisoner said that he had not tendered any coin larger than a shilling.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. You said at Clerkenwell that you were in company with Mr. and Mrs. Wilson and Mr. and Mrs. Wilkinson—I did not serve you—I don't remember if my barman said you were in their company—I should think I first saw you in my house about 10 o'clock; I don't remember seeing you there at 8.30.

ROBERT SMITH (Policeman Y 253). I was brought to the Queen's Arms about 10.30—the prisoner was there—the manager said he gave him in charge—I told the prisoner the charge, and he said "You have got the wrong man"—I took him into custody—the manager gave me this half-crown—the prisoner had sixpence on him, good money—he was sober. WILLIAM WEBSTER. This is a bad half-crown.

The Prisoner's Statement before the Magistrate. "I know nothing about the other man who has been spoken of. "

Witnesses for the Defence.

SARAH WILKINSON . My husband is a lather—you were in my company in the public-house, but not all the while—you called for half a quartern of whisky for me, and put down a shilling, and you called for a pot of four ale just as I was coming out, and gave me a shilling off what you owed me—I left you and a lot of people in company together.

ESTHER WILSON . I am a laundress—you were in my company on this Sunday night from 8.30 till 10, when the constable came—I only saw you change a shilling—I saw a stranger in front of the bar, who changed the half-crown, which the barman detected and bit a piece out of—you saw it, and stood there—I did not see you change a bad half-crown—I saw the barman give the two pieces to the boy—you sat in the bar, and said "What a shame it is to send a boy in with a bad half-crown like that"—

we asked the boy who gave it to him, and he said "A gentleman outside"—you did not leave the bar from 8.30 till you were apprehended—you only talked to the other man about how dear the green stuff was—I did not see you drinking with him.

Cross-examined. I do not know where the man lives now; I know where he used to live.

WILLIAM WILSON . I am a general dealer—I remember being in your company about three Sundays ago, and sitting by your side in the Queen's Arms public-house—me and my missus had a pint of ale—I saw you going past and called you in—I did not see you in the other man's company, except he was trying to force conversation on you—you called for half a quartern of whisky and a pot of ale, and tendered a shilling—you did not leave the house from 7.45 till the time you were apprehended.

The prisoner, in his defence, stated he was drinking with his witnesses when a strange man came in and began to talk to him about dealing; that soon after that man went out, and the boy came in with the bad half-crown, and after that the man came back and tendered another bad half-crown; and he contended that if he had been a comrade of his, he would have told him of the detection of the former coin, and that he was innocent.


FOURTH COURT.—Tuesday, December 12th, 1882.

Before Robert Malcolm Kerr, Esq.

11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-117
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

Related Material

117. JOHN JONES (44) PLEADED GUILTY to burglary in the dwelling-house of Charles Savaie, and stealing therein a quantity of wearing apparel, having been before convicted.— Two Years Hard Labour. And

11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-118
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

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118. JOHN COLLINS (19) to stealing from the person of William Thompson a watch value 6l. 6s.— Two Years' Hard Labour. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-119
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

Related Material

119. JOHN CURRAN (25) , Breaking and entering the shop of Edward Landsell and stealing therein two pairs of boots and other articles.

MR. GEOGHEGAN Prosecuted.

EDWARD LANDSELL . I am a bootmaker, of 1, Jubilee Place, Chelsea—on Tuesday, the 14th November, at about 12.0 p.m., I left my shop safely locked up—I came again at 8.30 on the morning of the 15th—in a room above my shop there was a broken window covered over with brown paper, and a place was broken in the paper large enough for an arm to go through—I missed this pair of pincers, a shirt, and other articles, which were shown to me by the police—a pipe was taken from my desk.

BENJAMIN LEESON (Policeman BR 37). I was on duty at about 2.30 a.m. on the 15th November near the prosecutor's house, when I saw the prisoner with this bundle (produced)—I stopped him—he was about 600 yards from the house—I asked him what he was carrying in the bundle, and he said "What has that to do with you?"—I said "It is my duty to ask you, and yours to answer me"—he said "I am a hawker and dealer, and have a licence "—he put his hand in his pocket, and said at the same time I could see what was in the bundle—I said "Turn it out or shall take you to the station "—he said "I will see you b——first," and he ran away—another constable ran after him and caught him—he was taken to the station—when he was searched a large stone was found upon

him, which he said he kept to use in case of emergency—I found a meerschaum pipe in his right-hand trousers pocket—this bundle contains the articles that have been since shown to the prosecutor and identified—I also saw a pair of pincers.

EDWARD GINN (Policeman B 461). I was on duty near Jubilee Place when I heard the last witness shouting for assistance—I went up and saw the prisoner running away—I followed him—he ran down King's Road, and pulled out a pair of pincers from his pocket and threw them in my face—I caught him and took him to the station.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. You turned half round and threw the pincers straight at my face—you threw off some of your clothes as you ran—these are the pincers (produced).

The prisoner in his statement before the Magistrate and in his defence, stated that the bundle was given him to carry, and they ran away and he was taken.

GUILTY . He then PLEADED GUILTY to having been convicted of felony in July, 1881, at Westminster Police-court.— Two Years' Hard Labour,

11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-120
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

Related Material

120. ALFRED EDYVIN (18) , Burglary in the dwelling-house of William Wimporey, and stealing 15s., his money.

MR. GEOGHEGAN Prosecuted. GEORGE ROPER (Policeman H 68). About 3.30 a.m. on 17th November I was on duty near Bethnal Green Road, when I saw four men drop over a wall at the back of the prosecutor's house—I went towards the wall and they ran away, three going one way and one the other—I followed the three and lost sight of them—another constable stopped the prisoner by my directions—I examined the prosecutor's house and found the kitchen window had one pane of glass broken, and a portion of the window was removed from the w. c.—I also found a jemmy on the premises—when we got to the station I searched the prisoner and found 12s. 7 1/2 d. in bronze upon him.

GEORGE WHEELEE (Policeman H 59). I was in company with the last witness, and heard cries of "Stop thief!"—I saw the men running away—one of them was the prisoner, whom I chased and caught—I asked him where he was going, and he said "Going home"—I asked him what he was running for, and he said he was going to work—I took him back to the house to see what had happened, and then took him to the station—there were 62 farthings on the prisoner.

WILLIAM WIMPOREY . I am a grocer and cheesemonger, of 211, Bethnal Green Road—at 11.30 p.m. on the 16th November I locked up my shop—I was called up by the police on the morning of the 17th and examined my place—when I locked it up I had about 15s. or 1l. in bronze in the till and a considerable number of farthings amongst it—it was all gone except three farthings.

The Prisoner's Statement before the Magistrate. "I went to sleep on a doorstep and woke up, walked about for a quarter of an hour, and a policeman got hold of me. I was going home. "

GUILTY .— Two Years' Hard Labour.

11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-121
VerdictsNot Guilty > unknown; Not Guilty > no evidence

Related Material

121. MORRIS MEYERS (53), REBECCA MEYERS (29), MARK WEINBERG (28), and MARY WEINBERG (25) , Stealing two books, one tollis, and twelve pairs of sheets, the property of Aaron Schaverein.

MR. FOSTER REED Prosecuted; MR. HORACE AVORY appeared for Morris and Rebecca Meyers; and MR. WILMOT for the Weinbergs.

AARON SCHAVEREIN . I live at 2, Fashion Street—on the 4th October I occupied the back parlour on the ground floor and the parlour on the first floor and a bedroom—this tollis is a scarf we use in the synagogue, and this is a prayer-book (produced)—they were in my wardrobe and I missed them on the 4th October—I saw them at Bristol on 10th November at the police-station.

JOHN SHORTT (Bristol Police Inspector). I know the prisoners—on the 9th November I went to 7, Cannon Street, Bristol, where I saw Mr. and Mrs. Weinberg—I said "I am a detective inspector of Bristol; my name is Shortt"—I had an officer with me, whom I told them was my sergeant, and I asked Mark Weinberg if he had sold Louis Weinberg a tollis or scarf which they use in the synagogue, within the last five weeks, and he said "No"—his wife made no reply—I asked him if he had received a box from London containing clothes, within the last five or six weeks, and he said "No"—I left the house with Louis Weinberg, and going down I met the female prisoner Meyers—she was pointed out to me by Louis as having sold the tollis—I went with her to No. 1, Earl Street, and asked her if she sold a tollis to Louis Weinberg, and she said she did—I asked her if she had received a box containing clothes from London, within five or six weeks, and she said she had—I also asked her where that box was, and she said she had burnt it—I asked her what had become of the clothes that were in the box, and she said she had sold them to various people; she did not know who—I then told my sergeant to take her into custody, and he conveyed her to the A Division Station, and I went to No. 6, Earl Street, in company with Louis Weinberg—this tollis I received from him—later in the day I received a bunch of keys from Rebecca Meyers, and then I went to Cannon Street again, and, in the presence of Meyers, I unlocked the back room on the first floor—I asked him who went to that room and he would not make me any reply—I had the cupboard unlocked and I found these two prayer-books, which have been identified by Mr. Schaverein—I left the house and communicated with the London police, and left the matter with them.

Cross-examined by MR. WILMOT. I have been inspector about five years, and have been in the force 23 1/2 years—I do not know that Weinberg occupied that house and had been living there for three years—I have not made inquiry—I believe previously to this he had been a man of good character.

LOUIS WEINBERG . I bought this tollis of Mrs. Meyers—I do not remember when.

STEPHEN WHITE (Police Sergeant H). On the 10th November I saw Rebecca Meyers in custody at Bristol—I was in company with Shortt—the prosecutor went with me—he identified this property and a quantity of other property outside the Court—on the 14th I went to Bristol and took the two Weinbergs—I asked Mr. Weinberg if he had received any property from London—he said he had received nothing—I said "Your servants have been pledging various goods, and you have employed a girl to wash some things here, and have been selling things to different people in the place, and that property has been identified I as having been stolen "—they said they knew nothing about it, and when I told Weinberg

I should take him into custody, he called me outside and said "This is a bad job; I will give you 5l. if you will let me go "—I said I could not do business in that way—he said "You shall have anything you like if you will let me go"—I said "No, you must go the station," and I charged him with being concerned with others in stealing the property—I took the three.

WILLIAM THICK (Police Sergeant). At 9 o'clock on Wednesday, the 15th November, the prisoner Morris Meyers came to Leman Street station and said "I wish to give myself up for buying some things"—I cautioned him and told him I should take it down in writing and it might be used against him—he said "I wish you to do so"—I took his statement down—it is attached to the depositions—I charged him.

AARON SCHAVEREIN (Re-examined). I identify the tollis by the bags that are on it and by the colour—the books were given to me by my father-in-law, and I know them to be my books—I did not have time to put my name in them.


The prisoners were also indicted for breaking and entering the dwelling-house of Joseph Cohen, and stealing two jackets, two dresses, and four coats . The prosecution offered no evidence. NOT GUILTY .

11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-122
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty; Not Guilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

Related Material

122. THOMAS SMITH (18) and WILLIAM SMITH (19), Burglary in the dwelling-house of Jane Kerslake, and stealing 2lb of tea and various other articles. WILLIAM SMITH PLEADED GUILTY .

MR. WILMOT Prosecuted; MR. STEWART WHITE defended Thomas Smith

WILLIAM HENRY ASHFORD . I am a gasfitter, of 35, King's Cross Road, St. Pancras—on the night of the 27th November last I went to bed soon after 12 o'clock, having locked the place up—there was a door leading into the backyard, which was latched, but not bolted—I came down next morning shortly before 6 o'clock, when I found two or three jackets lying on the stairs—I called my landlady, Miss Kerslake—I went into the shop to get some cheese, and found none there—there was some there the day before—I missed a coat, and gave information to the police—I had in the pockets two silk handkerchiefs, a cotton handkerchief, a tobacco pouch, and some tickets for a building society—some of the articles were produced by the pawnbroker—these articles (produced) are my property.

JANE KERSLAKE . I live at 53, King's Cross Road, St. Pancras—I went to bed on the night in question, leaving the house safe—there were some provisions in the shop; next morning I found they were missing, and that a door leading to the backyard was open.

CHARLES GEORGE ROBINSON . I am an assistant to Mr. Jones, of 20, Exmouth Street, Clerkenwell, pawnbroker—the coat the prosecutor is wearing was brought to me on the 28th November a little after 11 o'clock by Thomas Smith—we had heard something about a coat being missed—the governor inquired of him about the coat, and he said another man had given it to him to pawn, and when he was cross-questioned about it he ran out of the shop down Northampton Court, and after a long chase I caught him and brought him back—he was then given into the custody of John McCarthy.

Cross-examined. I did not see the other prisoner until I went to Clerkenwell.

JOSEPH WAKEFIELD (Police Sergeant G). I was at the police-station

between 11 and 12 on the 28th November when Thomas Smith was brought there and charged with committing a burglary—he said, "When I was at 28, Brook Street, King's Cross, a young man asked me to pawn the coat for him, and I went for him to the pawnbroker's; I went out to speak to him, when he ran away, and I ran after him; I was followed and given into custody "—I went to 28, Brook Street, which is a common lodging-house—I there apprehended William Smith—I found this handkerchief on him at the police-station, and Thomas Smith was wearing this one round his neck (produced)—he said it was in the coat pocket when the young man gave it to him to pawn.

Cross-examined. I found the address he gave correct.

JOHN MCCARTHY (Policeman C 41). I was called to the pawnbroker's shop, when I saw Thomas Smith—he was charged and asked questions about the coat—he said a man lie had seen once or twice before asked him that morning if he had any breakfast; he said "No," and he asked him if he wanted any, and he said "Yes," and the young man gave him the coat to take to Exmouth Street to pawn for 4s. 6d.—I took him to the station—I did not see any young man outside the shop.


WILLIAM SMITH— Twelve Months' Hard Labour.

11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-123
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

Related Material

123. THOMAS WHITE (32) , Stealing four pieces of paper and 4d. the property of Edward Warren from his person.

MR. WILMOT Prosecuted.

EDWARD WARREN . I am a hatter's assistant, of 52, Liverpool Street—on the 18th November last, at 3 p.m., I was in Trafalgar Square when the troops were going by—I saw the prisoner, on my right side, take his hand from my pocket—I hardly know what I had in it, but there was over 4d. and four railway tickets—I seized his hand, and he let drop the coin, which I heard fall; the crowd was too great for me to pick it up—I charged him with picking my pocket—he said he was innocent—I did not see the tickets.

JOSEPH SMITH (Policeman P 380). I was on duty in Parliament Street, and was called by the last witness—there was a great crush at the time, and the prosecutor touched me on the shoulder and said, u This man has picked my pocket"—the prisoner said he was innocent—I took him to the station, where he was searched—there were three pawn-tickets on him, 4 1/2 d. in bronze, a purse with 10s. in silver, and several other articles, including a corkscrew and latchkey—it was impossible to search the ground in consequence of the crowd at the time.

Prisoner's Defence. I witnessed the review from the back of Spring Gardens, and was there all the morning waiting to come out into White-hall, and finding I could not get by I waited until the soldiers had passed, and directly they had gone by there was a general rush all ways, and before hardly I knew what had happened I was charged with this offence by the prosecutor. I am entirely innocent of this matter altogether. I had an umbrella in my hand, and kid gloves on.

EDWARD WARREN (Re examined). The prisoner had not gloves on.

The Prisoner. I may have taken them off when I bade them search me; they would not do so, and took me down to Bow Street.


11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-124
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

Related Material

124. THOMAS WHITE was again indicted for stealing one bag and 20 pieces of paper, the goods of James Alfred Bayley.

JAMES ALFRED BAYLEY . I live at South Norwood Park—about a year ago I went to Barnes—this is my bag (produced); I took it with me; it contained my cheque-book, pass-book, and other business papers—the cheque-book is on MESSRS. John Brown and Co., bankers—at Barnes Station I left my bag with a porter—on going to call for it on my return to town it was not forthcoming—I cannot exactly identify this blank cheque, but to the best of my belief it is one of those which was in my cheque-book—from that day till the book was produced by the constable I did not see it—I have no doubt about the bag.

SIDNEY WHEELER . I am a porter at Barnes Railway-station on the London and South-Western Railway—about a year ago a bag was left in my custody to take care of by the last witness—it was very much like this bag—he left it with me between 5 and 6 o'clock—about 6.30 a gentleman came and asked me for the bag—I asked him for a description of it, which he gave me, and I thought it was his bag, and I gave it to him—I cannot swear to the prisoner, but it was a man like him.

WILLIAM JOSHUA WOOD . I am an assistant to Mr. Solomon Ullman, pawnbroker, of 62, Borough High Street—I was in the shop on the 27th October last when this bag was brought in to pawn—a ticket was made out in the name of John Spencer—I do not identify the prisoner.

CHARLES JAMES KITCHINGMAN . I am clerk in the bank of MESSRS. John Brown and Co., of 25, Abchurch Lane—the prosecutor is a customer of ours—this blank cheque-book was given to him on the 28th July, 1881—this cheque would form one of a book of 50.

JOSEPH SMITH (Police Constable P 380) I found this pawn-ticket in the prisoner's trousers pocket—I inquired about the bag, and found it related to a bag pledged in the name of Spencer—I found this blank cheque in the prisoner's purse.

Prisoner. I took the bag out of pledge in the morning and put it in again in the afternoon of the same day.

WILLIAM JOSHUA WOOD (Re-examined). I do not remember it being pledged more than once.

The prisoner in his defence said that he had bought the pawntickets found upon him of a man in the street in the hope of making something out of them.


11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-125
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

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125. FREDERICK MORITZ MOSER (23) PLEADED GUILTY to forging and uttering a banker's cheque for payment of 22l. 1s. with intent to defraud, and also to forging and uttering an endorsement on a banker's cheque for payment of 44l. 8s. with the like, intent.— Eighteen Months' Hard Labour.

OLD COURT.—Wednesday, December 13th, 1882.

Before Mr. Justice Stephen.

11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-126
VerdictsGuilty > pleaded guilty; Guilty > pleaded guilty
SentencesImprisonment > penal servitude; Imprisonment > penal servitude; Corporal > whipping

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126. DENNIS REGAN (18) and CHARLES TROWBRIDGE (17) PLEADED GUILTY to robbery with violence on Nellie James, and stealing from her person a bag, a purse, and 7s., having both been before convicted. TROWBRIDGE also PLEADED GUILTY to an assault with intent to resist his lawful apprehension.

REGAN— Fifteen Years' Penal Servitude. TROWBRIDGE— Fifteen Years Penal Servitude and thirty lashes with the cat.

11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-127
VerdictNot Guilty > non compos mentis
SentenceImprisonment > insanity

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127. ARTHUR SAMUEL SMITH (18) , Feloniously setting fire to certain books, paper, and oil, with intent to set fire to a dwelling-house, persons being therein.

MR. RIBTON Prosecuted.

ROBERT ELLINGTON I occupy Antil Cottage, Kilburn Lane, and let the first floor to the prisoner's father and mother—he lived with them, and slept in their room—on 17th November, at 10 o'clock, I heard him go upstairs—I know his step, and am sure it was he—I heard him come down in a quarter of an hour—I smelt fire, and called his father, who asked me to go to their room; I did so, and found a lot of books and papers piled up and burning—a lamp was on the table; it looked as if it had been turned over, for the oil was dripping from the top—I smelt paraffin, and sent for a constable—he took the prisoner, and I went to the station with him—there was no fire in the room before he went upstairs—he has lived in the house two years—he is eccentric—he has tried to stab his father, without any quarrel, and his father has called me up for protection—I have seen him violent to his father—he put the poker in the fire and put it in his father's face, and told me he drew a knife across his father's neck—I never saw him drunk—I don't believe he is accountable for his actions.

JAMES PERCY (Policeman). On 17th November, about 10.20, I was called to Antil Cottage, and found the first-floor front room full of smoke, and a packet of paper and books piled up, which had been lit and extinguished—I smelt paraffin—there was a lamp on a table in the room; it seemed to have been upset; I could see oil down the side—on leaving the house a woman spoke to me, and from what she said I found the prisoner on the opposite side of the road looking at the house—I approached him, and he ran off—I called "Stop him"—he was stopped, and I told him he would be charged with setting fire to the house—he made no reply, but at the door of the station he said "I shall have plenty of tommy and I shall have some skilly, and I will pour some paraffin on him when I get out; if it had not been for Mr. "somebody" knocking me about, that was the reason I set fire to the b——y place "—he said at the station "It was starvation made me do it"—when the charge was read to him he said "I plead guilty. "

Cross-examined. The inspector refused to take the charge, and sent me to Kilburn with it, as it was not in his parish.

Prisoner's Defence. I want to know whether they find me guilty or not guilty. I have had a father who has been in a good position. You can't hang me for nothing. I used the knife. Thank God, but I don't want it. I have had 21 days, and if I have 21 years that is enough for you. I want the servant girl examined. I won't go home, and I will charge you with perjury if you speak a word against me. I have done 21 days.

JOHN SPARKES , M. R. C. S. I act as assistant-surgeon at Newgate and Clerkenwell—the prisoner has been under my observation four or five weeks—I consider him of weak intellect—I don't think he knew the nature of what he was doing, in setting fire to this house—I have seen his manner in Court to-day; he has behaved in the same way to me, and he

has torn up his clothes and other articles, and made charges against the warders—I don't consider he is shamming.

NOT GUILTY on the ground of insanity .— To be detained during Her Majesty's pleasure.

11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-128
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

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128. DANIEL CANOE (26) was indicted for, and charged on the Coroner's Inquisition with, the manslaughter of William Henry Jackson

MR. LILLEY Prosecuted; MR. BLACKWELL Defended.

JOHN SIMCOX . I am a clicker, and live in Cambridge Road, Bethnal Green—on Sunday night, 29th October, I was in Crossley's beerhouse with William Henry Jackson, John Jones, and others—about 11 o'clock we came out, and about a dozen yards from the beerhouse we were just going to disperse—Jackson went up to the palings to make water, while he was doing so two gentlemen came down the street arm in arm—the prisoner was one of them—they went across the way to my friend and asked what he was doing there—he half turned round to them and said "I am doing no harm, no offence meant"—the prisoner up with his arm and struck him in the face—he staggered back—I stepped forward and took him by the arm, and asked him to come home with me—the prisoner struck at me, I backed, he caught me on the hat and knocked it off—I missed my friend's arm to avoid the prisoner's violence, and he gave him a blow, straight from the shoulder, right in the face, and he fell straight back on his head—the prisoner's brother ran up and pulled him away, and I ran up to my friend to pick him up—I found blood flowing from his head, he had fallen on the flags—I laid him down again and ran for help—Jones came to my assistance, and we conveyed him to the London Hospital—he was sober.

Cross-examined. I had been in the beerhouse about half an hour—the deceased was there when I went in—I heard what the prisoner said—I am hard of hearing—the deceased did not make use of any offensive expression to the prisoner—the prisoner's father lives about six yards from where the deceased was making water.

JOHN JONES . I live at 11, Teesdale Street, Hackney Road—I was at Cooksley's beerhouse with the deceased and Simcox—we left about 11 o'clock—the deceased was perfectly sober—I bade them good night, and went indoors, living exactly opposite—I had not been in more than half a minute when I was called by name to assist—I rushed out and found the deceased lying on his back insensible in a pool of blood—I assisted him to the hospital.

WILLIAM WALLER (Policeman K). On 30th October I apprehended the prisoner at Woodford, at his work—I told him I should take him into custody for violently assaulting Jackson—he said "He was making water outside my father's door; I spoke to him, and he told me to go and—myself, I struck him and knocked him down; but I did not know it was Jackson until this morning "—I said "He is in the London Hospital"—he said "I am very sorry, I have known him a long time; when I came out of doors this morning I saw the blood on the pavement and washed it away"—at the station he saw Mrs. Jackson, and said "Mrs. Jackson, I am very sorry for this. "

FREDERICK CHARLES MEARS . On 29th Oct. I was house surgeon at the London Hospital, when the deceased was brought in—he had a contusion round the left eye, another behind the right ear, and he was bleed

ing from the right ear—he was quite concussed—he remained under treatment until 11th November, and then died—I made a post-mortem examination—I found a fracture of the vaults of the skull, and also of the base, which would account for death—a blow or fall against the pavement would produce such injuries.

GUILTY . He received a good character.— Three Months' Hard Labour.

11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-129
VerdictGuilty > with recommendation
SentenceImprisonment > other institution

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129. WILLIAM JAGO (14) was indicted for, and charged on the Coroner's Inquisition with, the manslaughter of John Richard Smith.

MR. POLAND Prosecuted.

SARAH ANN SMITH . I am a widow, and live at 6, Providence Place, Woolmer Place, Poplar—on 22nd November, between 2 and 3 o'clock in the afternoon, I was near my house—Mrs. Jago, the prisoner's mother, was there—she lives next door but one—my son Richard, about 17, came up the court—Mrs. Jago called him very foul names, she was very tipsy—he asked her why she did so—with that she up with her fist and was going to strike him, instead of that he struck her in the face with his hand—she then sent after her boy, the prisoner, and told him to go in and get the poker—he went in and brought out a chopper, and struck my son, over Mrs. Jago's shoulder, on the head with the chopper with both hands—he put his hands on his head and went indoors—he became unconscious, and was taken to the hospital and died on the 29th.

ELIZABETH BUTLER . I live at 18, Providence Place—I heard quarrelling between Mrs. Jago and Mrs. Smith—while it was going on the deceased came up the court—Mrs. Jago called him very bad names—he said "Why can't you leave my name alone, my mother and you are having a row"—with that they both hit at one another, and they had a fight on the step—Mrs. Jago told her son to go and get the poker, and in a minute after he came out with a big chopper in his two hands—he lifted it right over his head and hit the boy Smith on the top of the head with it—Smith was taller than the prisoner, but the prisoner was on the top of the wooden step and Smith was down on the bottom step—Mrs. Jago was sitting on the step, and she and the prisoner directly went indoors—Mrs. Jago was very drunk—Mrs. Smith had not long come from work.

By the COURT. Mrs. Jago sent for the prisoner—he was standing at his place at the bottom of the court, he is a shoeblack—I did not see who she sent—I saw him come up with his box on his shoulder, and then she told him to go and get the poker.

MARY TYE . I live at 16, Providence Place—I heard the quarrelling between Mrs. Jago and Mrs. Smith—I heard Mrs. Jago use bad language, and she said "Go and tell my Billy I want him"—that was when young Smith struck her—I believe the prisoner was up by the Eagle, where he stands—he came into the court—she said "Go in and get the b—y poker" he went in and came out with a chopper, and took it in his two hands and struck Smith on the head—he was on the top wooden step and Smith on the bottom, and Mrs. Jago was on the third step—Mrs. Jago and the prisoner then went indoors—Mrs. Smith went and pushed the door—she got her arm in, and Smith went and pulled her down, and then was taken to the hospital—this does not look like the same chopper, it looked larger and a larger handle.

WALTER REED (Police Sergeant). I took the prisoner into custody in

Providence Place on the morning of 25th November for causing grievous bodily harm to the boy Smith—he said "My mother and his mother were having a row, and I went indoors and got the chopper, and hit him on the head with it"—I searched the house, but could not find any chopper—on the afternoon of the 25th Mrs. Jago gave me this chopper.

WILLIAM SLATER . I was house surgeon at Poplar Hospital when Smith was brought there on 22nd November—he had an incised wound on the scalp, and the skull was fractured—he died on the morning of the 29th from inflammation of the brain following on the injury.

The Prisoner's Statement before the Magistrate. I ran in and got a chopper in a passion, and hit him on the head with it.

Prisoner's Defence. I did not mean to do him any harm in striking him; I did not mean to use the sharp end. He struck my mother first. She did not say anything to me about the chopper.

CATHERINE JAGO . I am the prisoner's mother—my boy and Mrs. Smith were having a quarrel—she struck me several times, and kicked me—I never sent my boy for a poker—he ran in and got the chopper when he saw Smith knock me down—I had had a little drop, but was quite sensible—I did not call Smith bad names—my son came up the court without being sent for—I did not tell him to get either the poker or chopper—Mrs. Smith and my husband are first cousins.

The prisoner received a good character from the superintendent of the Ragged School at Poplar.

GUILTY. Recommended to mercy by the Jury on account of his youth .— To be detained in the Feltham Industrial School for Two Years.

11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-130
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude; Corporal > whipping

Related Material

130. GEORGE SMITH (35) , Robbery with violence on Francis Turner, and stealing a purse and 2l. 4s .

MR. GRIFFITHS Prosecuted.

FRANCIS TURNER . I live in Vere Street, Clare Market—on Saturday night, 18th November, I was in the Green Man public-house, in Bedford Street, Covent Garden—the prisoner was there—I did not know him before—he asked me to give him a bit of tobacco—I did so—he afterwards asked me to give him a penny to get him some beer—I did that—I had a purse in my pocket containing 2l. 4s.—I did Dot take the penny from my purse—I left the Green Man I think between 10.30 and 11—the prisoner followed me, and when in Russell Street he sounded the side of my trousers with his hand—he then placed his hand in my coat pocket—I asked him if he meant to rob me, using rather a bad word to him—he then took me by the collar, and threw me on the ground in the gutter, and starred my temple on the left side—I got up, and he threw me again on the right side—I got up a second time, and he threw me again on the right side, and laid me insensible—I can't say how long 1 was insensible; I might have been lying there half an hour for all 1 know—when I came to myself, my purse and money were gone—I laid up one day—I was bruised oh my right side—my head was very sore—1 had two small bumps on it—I bled a little, and the joint of my thumb was knocked up—I could not use my hand for a day—I can just manage to work with it—1 am an engineer—it is not as good as it was before.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. I was not drinking with you in the public-house—there were several other persons there drinking—there was a

barman there—two friends of yours followed behind me and you across the market—I know nothing about Mary Kellard.

MARY KELLARD . I live in Church Street, Soho—I know the prisoner—on Saturday night, 18th November, about half-past 10, I was near the Green Man, in Bedford Street—I saw the prosecutor come out, and the prisoner and two other men follow him—they went up Bedford Street to Garrick Street, and then turned towards Covent Garden Market—the prosecutor and prisoner were walking together, and the other two were behind—I had seen the prisoner about half-past 8 that evening, and he said "Mary, I mean to have a purse to-night"—I said "If you do, you will go back to where you came from "—he said "I don't care"—I had known him for about seven weeks—he said he was a sailor just come home, and had been away 10 years.

Prisoner. This is all jealousy because I was living with another girl, and would have nothing to do with her. Witness. That was what he said at the police-court—the night he was locked up the woman he was living with gave me a black eye, and was bound over to keep the peace. I never said I would have him lagged. I said I would have him locked up the night he took a soldier's medal. I am in danger of my life; he and the woman he lives with have threatened what they would do to me.

JOHN WADHAM (Policeman E 266). On 25th November the prosecutor took me to the Bedford Tavern, and there saw the prisoner—he charged him with knocking him down, and robbing him with violence—there were others there—he picked him out at once—the prisoner said "You false-swearing man; you have made a mistake. "

The prisoner in his defence declared his innocence, and again asserted that the witness, Mary Kellard, was actuated by jealousy.

GUILTY . He PLEADED GUILTY to having been before convicted, and there were numerous other convictions against him from, 1857 to 1874, when he was sentenced to Ten Years' Penal Servitude.— Twenty Years' Penal Servitude , and Thirty Lashes with the Cat.

NEW COURT.—Wednesday, December 13th, 1882.

Before Mr. Recorder.

11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-131
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceMiscellaneous > sureties

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131. ARTHUR GASKIN (40), WILLIAM LACEY HAKMAN MILTON (33), and THOMAS QUINCE DAVIS (43), PLEADED GUILTY to unlawfully conspiring to obtain 94l. and other sums from Edward Curry and others by false pretences.— To enter into their own recognisances of 100l. each to come up for judgment when called upon.

11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-132
VerdictNot Guilty > no evidence

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132. The said ARTHUR GASKIN, WILLIAM LACEY HARMAN MILTON , and THOMAS QUINCE DAVIS , were further indicted for obtaining money under false pretences.

No evidence was offered. NOT GUILTY

11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-133
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown; Guilty > unknown

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133. JOHN LEARY (21), ALFRED THOMAS (21), LAURA MYERS (33), MARY ANN BASSETT (52), and MARY ANN JORDAN (43) , Feloniously breaking and entering the warehouse of Gustavus Gottschalk and stealing 400 yards of cloth, his goods.


FERDINAND GOTTSCHALK . I am engaged with my father Gustavus Gottschalk at 114, Queen Victoria Street—he is a cloth merchant, occupying the warehouse on the first floor—I was the last to leave the premises on 31st November—I left them quite safe, the door of the warehouse being locked—I left the outer door unfastened because there are other people in the house—on arrival the next morning I found the door broken open—I saw marks upon the door—the lock was steel—the latch of the lock had cut right through the brass, showing that great force had been used—I missed seven rolls of cloth from the counter nearest the door. or about 350 yards—this is some of the cloth (produced)—I have seen a large portion of my diagonal cloth, produced by pawnbrokers at the Mansion House, also 89 yards which was found at Overbury Street, Clapham—those nearly make up the roll I missed.

Cross-examined by MR. FRITH. It is manufactured by Penang and Gerring, a large French house—I am not aware that there are hundreds and thousands of yards of such cloth in the market—I doubt it because Gerring says this is the only piece.

SAMUEL TROTMAN . I am agent at 17, Watling Street, to MESSRS. Penang and Gerring, woollen manufacturers—I indentify about 16 parcels of black diagonal cloth as our make—we distinguish our cloth by the texture and finish—there are thousands and thousands of yards of cloth in the market but not of this peculiar description—it is raised, which gives it a softness—I have no doubt it is our make.

WILLIAM WRIGHT (City Detective). On the morning of 2nd November I was called to 114, Queen Victoria Street—I found the inner door on the first floor had been forced open, and a great number of marks of a jemmy and another instrument having been used—the lock was broken, and great force had been used to get the door open—from information I had, I watched Bassett and Jordan on 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th Nov.—I saw them together on the 7th and 8th—I saw them go into 30, Market Street, Newington—1 followed them to different public-houses—on 8th Nov., I went to 30, Market Street, about 8 p.m.—Bassett was then in custody—Jordan was in bed in the back room on the first floor—I and Downes went up—when I had got to the top of the stairs I asked her to-get up, she said she should not and used bad language—I asked her to-get up several times before I went in the room—when I went in the room I asked her to get up—he said "No"—I said "You had better get up," and she said "No"—that was repeated several times—I then told her I was a police officer, and had called upon her in reference to some cloth—she said" I know nothing about any cloth"—I said "Have you pledged any cloth, or given any to pledge, or serge, within this last month?"—she said "No"—I said a large quantity of cloth had been stolen. and it had been stated she had pledged some; I mentioned the name of Bassett—she denied several times that she had ever had any cloth—she said she knew nothing at all about it—I told her Bassett was in custody, and she bad stated she had received two pieces of cloth from her to pledge—she said she-had never seen any cloth, she did not know Bassett—I told her she did know Bassett, they had been seen together—she then asked me if it was the little woman that had been down the Lane with her that dealt in gold lace—I said "Yes"—I asked her if she had any tickets—there was a coat on the-chair and I turned out the pockets of the jacket, and she handed me 300 or 400 pawn-tickets from a cupboard in the bedroom—she said if we had

come a week or two sooner we could have found a cart-load, she had been lighting the fire with them—we left a great number behind, and brought a great number away—we went down in the parlour, and I asked her where the tickets were of the Monday's pawnings, and she handed me a number of tickets, and said she got her living by pawnbrokers—I said "These are not all pawnings for Monday"—she said "They are"—I said "They are not, you were followed to pawnbrokers in the Gray's Inn Road"—she said "I never went near Gray's Inn Road"—I asked her for the ticket for the cloth pledged on Monday in Gray's Inn Road—she said she had not pledged on the Monday, she had tumbled to the officers following (that is, she recognised the officers following her)—I took her to the station where Bassett was—they were put in the dock together—I asked Bassett, in Jordan's presence, if Jordan was the woman she referred to as having given her cloth to pledge—Bassett said "Yes"—Jordan said she had not given her any cloth—Bassett said "Yes you did, you wicked woman; how can you stand there and deny having given me any cloth?"—Jordan said "Well, if I did you knew it was stolen as well as I did"—Bassett said "No, I did not"—Jordan said "Oh, yes, you did"—that was said three or four times—I said "You have had some cloth, Bassett?"—she said "Yes"—I said "Of whom did you buy it?"—she said "From Mrs. Mendosa"—I said "When did you buy it?"—she said "About a week ago"—I said "How much did you give for it?"—she said "I gave 22s. 6d. for a lot of goods; there were three under garments at 1s. each, two pieces of stuff at 3s. 6d."—I said "Which Mrs. Mendosa is it? I know five or six"—she said "Carlo"—her real name is Levy, but she is better known as Mrs. Mendosa; she lived down Petticoat Lane—I said 1 knew Carlo Mendosa very well, and I should see her—on 28th November the other three prisoners were taken into custody—I after that went to No. 17A, Overbury Street, Clapton Park, with other officers—I saw the jemmy found—I lighted the match for the officer—it was taken from a sideboard, behind some dishes in the corner in a back room on the ground floor, a parlour or a kitchen—it is termed a kitchen in the deposition—I saw this file on a table in the same room—I afterwards took those instruments to 114, Queen Victoria Street, and compared them with the marks on the door—this jemmy has a peculiar point, and makes a different mark each way—the marks corresponded with this instrument in every way—there are double doors, one had the flat side of this file, the other the round side—there was also the impression of the cut marks of the file.

Cross-examined by MR. COLE. Eliza Chapman is a witness—Costin and Barton followed her under my instructions—they gave evidence—Chap-man was not charged, I found her statement correct.

Cross-examined by MR. FRITH. Jordan said she got her living by buying things and pawning them directly—I saw a man named Fudge—I charged him—I found 30 tickets in his pocket—he was discharged—the tickets did not relate to the cloth—he said everything in the house was his—he lived with Jordan as man and wife—Jordan said they were Fudge's tickets, and I believe Fudge said downstairs 35 among hundreds were his—Fudge was not seen pawning with Jordan—about 50 yards of cloth were traced to the possession of Jordan.

Re-examined. I found no tickets relating to this case, and Jordan gave me none.

FREDERICK DOWNES (City Detective). I was engaged watching Bassett and Jordan—on 7th and 8th November I saw Bassett go to Jordan's house in Market Street—on the 8th I followed Bassett to 48, Haynes Street, Battersea—I went with Wright about 6 p.m. and took her into custody—I said to Bassett "We are police officers; you will be taken into custody for being concerned in stealing a quantity of cloth from 114, Queen Victoria Street—she said "My God! I know nothing about any cloth"—I said "Yes you do; have you pledged a piece at Attenborough's, in Newington Causeway?"—she said "Yes, I did; it was given to me by a woman whom I met at the sale-rooms, and another piece, and here is the ticket of it"—she handed me this ticket in the name of Mary Skeets, of 46, Haynes Street, Battersea, for a remnant of cloth—I said "Where is the ticket for the other piece?"—she said "I gave that and the money to the woman, and she gave me this ticket for my trouble in pledging—I said "This is all you have pledged?" she said "On my oath it is"—she was sent to the station—I was at the station and heard the conversation between the two women.

Cross-examined by MR. COLE. I saw Bassett go to a public-house where Fudge was—Fudge was charged and discharged.

ARTHUR BARTON (City Policeman 889). After the charge was taken I was ordered to convey Bassett to Seething Lane—on the way she said "Iam sorry I have told you a falsehood, it was not two pieces of cloth, but four that I received; it is no use for the tall woman to say she has not pledged any cloth, for I was with her when she pledged a piece near St. George's Church.

Cross-examined by MR. COLE. I was employed to watch Chapman—I watched her for several days—I saw her go to the pawnbrokers on 6th Nov.

Re-examined. Chapman went to one pawnbroker, and they refused the cloth; she went to another, and they took it in—Jordan went in a court and gave Chapman the cloth from under her shawl.

By MR. FRITH. I did not state that at the police-court; Costin did.

THOMAS COOPER . I am assistant to Mr. James Attenborough, 81, Walworth Road, a pawnbroker—I produce three yards of black diagonal cloth, pledged with me on 4th November last, by Jordan, for 8s., in the name of Appleton, of 17, Gurney Street.

ROBERT CHARLES FERN . I am an assistant to Mr. Joseph Folkard, pawn-broker, of 16, London Road, Southwark—on 4th November three yards of black diagonal cloth were pledged with me by Ann Jordan, in the name of Jane Appleton, of 20, Market Street, Southwark, for 8s.—I gave her a ticket.

Cross-examined by MR. FRITH. I do not know that I have seen her before, but she is well known to pawnbrokers.

Cross-examined by MR. COLE. It is a common practice to buy job lots and pawn them—more money is made that way than by selling in bulk.

Re-examined. I do not know where they get it from—the practice is not to redeem it.

EDWARD CLARKE . I am assistant to Mr. Samuel Barnett, pawnbroker, of 10, St. George's Circus, Blackfriars Road—I produce three yards of diagonal black cloth pledged with me on 4th November, by Jordan, in the name of Ann Jordan, of 8, Market Street, for 8s.—I gave her a ticket.

Cross-examined by MR. FRITH. I had not seen her before.

JAMES DEEKS . I am assistant to Mr. John Aberthall, pawnbroker, of

284, Gray's Inn Road—I produce three yards of black diagonal cloth pledged with me on 6th November by Ann Chapmann for 8s.

ELIZA CHAPMAN . I am a single woman, of 33, King Street, Borough Road—I know Jordan—on 6th November I pledged some cloth for her—I don't know where, but it was Guy Fawkes day—Jordan is a dealer at sales—she said "Take this and pledge it," and I done it innocent enough, and gave her the money and the ticket—I worked for her for three weeks—I gave my right name, Eliza Chapman, not Ann Chapman—I forget what address I gave.

Cross-examined by MR. COLE. Jordan attended sales of clothes three times a week at regular sale-rooms—she went to Petticoat Lane—I never went—I have pawned things on several occasions by her instructions—I sometimes gave my own name, and sometimes somebody else's—I thought it was in the way of dealing.

Cross-examined by MR. FRITH. I have known Jordan 10 or 12 years—she said she could get more upon things than by selling them.

HENRY COSTIN (City Policeman). I watched with Barton—I saw Jordan leave 30, Market Street, carrying a bundle, and join Eliza Chapman—I followed them to various pawnshops till they got to Elm Street, Gray's Inn Road—there I saw Jordan give Chapman a piece of cloth—she took it from a bundle—Chapman took it to Mr. Apthall's, in the Gray's Inn Road, and then met Jordan and gave her the money.

CHARLES HENRY STOCK . I am assistant to Mr. George Attenborough, of 80, Newington Causeway—I produce two yards of black diagonal cloth pledged with me on 3rd November, by Bassett, in the name of Mary Turner, of 39, Market Street, for 6s.—1 gave her a ticket.

GEORGE ENDACOTT . I am assistant to Messrs. Davison, of 254, Wandsworth Road, pawnbrokers—I produce 2 1/2 yards of black diagonal cloth pledged with me on 4th November, by Bassett, for 7s., in the name of Jane Hamilton, of 3, College Road—I gave her a ticket.

ALFRED WALKER . I am assistant to Mr. Edward Burrell, of 2, Mirrow Street, Walworth—I produce three yards of black diagonal cloth pledged with me on 4th Nov. by Bassett for 7s. in the name of Coyle, of Amelia Street—I gave her a ticker, of which this is the duplicate.

Cross-examined by MR. COLE. Mr. Grimmet made out the ticket.

RAYMOND SMITH . I am assistant to Messrs. Harvey and Thompson, pawnbrokers, of 1A, High Street, Vauxhall—I produce 2 1/2 yards of black diagonal cloth pledged with me on 4th November by a woman who gave the name of Mary Skeets—I gave her this ticket—the address was 46, Haynes Street, Battersea.

RICHARD MEAD . I am assistant to Messrs. Wolstenholme and Co., pawnbrokers, of 34, Kennington Park Road—I produce three yards of black diagonal cloth pledged with me on 4th November by Jordan for 8s. in the name of Appleton, of 37, White Hart Street—I gave her a ticket.

ALEXANDER PICKEN . I am assistant to Mr. Russell, of 307, Walworth Road, pawnbrokers—I produce three yards of black diagonal cloth pledged with me for 7s. on 4th November by Bassett in the name of Mary Ann Turner, of 7, East Street—I saw the manager give her a ticket.

Cross-examined by MR. COLE The manager transacted the business, but I was in the shop at the time.

FREDERICK WADE (City Policeman 344). On 28th November I saw Leary in custody at Hackney Police-station—I asked him for his address—he gave me 17A, Overbury Street, Clapton Park—I went there with

Chapman and Fletcher, two other detectives—it was a marine store dealer's—I saw Thomas behind the counter—I asked hi u if a man named Leary lived there—he said yes. he lodged upstairs—I said I wanted to see into his room—he said "Wait till Mrs. Myers comes back"—I waited some time and then went upstairs—Thomas went with me—he pointed out the room, the second-floor back—he said "That is Myers's room; there is nothing here"—I did not find anything—I went down again into the shop—I searched the shop—I found 19 pieces of cloth at the right-hand corner at the back of the shop, by the side of a lot of old coats and rags—this is it produced—altogether there is about 89 yards of it—I asked Thomas how he accounted for the cloth being in his possession—he said it was bought at the market—I said "What market?"—he said "Petticoat Lane"—I told him I should take him into custody—I handed him over to the possession of other officers, and took possession of the cloth—he was charged with possession of this cloth and other goods—he had nothing to say.

Cross-examined by MR. COLE. A lot of rags were in each room—I charged him with unlawful possession of sealskin bags.

Re-examined. They are the subject of another charge.

GEORGE CHAPMAN (Detective N) I went with Wade to Overbury Street—I saw him find the cloth—Thomas said to me they belonged to Mrs. Myers; she had a stall at Petticoat Lane, and bought the cloth at a sale—on conveying him to the station he said "Mrs. Myers used the cloth for making children's clothes with."

Cross-examined by MR. COLE. All three detectives were there, but searching different parts of the shop.

JAMES FLETCHER (Detective N). I went with the other detectives to 17A, Overbury Street—I found this jemmy on the dresser in the back kitchen under some dishes, laying against the wall—I found a dark lantern—there was oil in it—I saw three or four children in the house, the oldest 9 or 10.

BAXTER HUNT (Detective Officer). I searched the premises with the other officers—I found this file in the second-floor front room under some coats under the table—there was a bedstead—the whole house was in disorder—I took it down and put it on the table.

GUSTAVUS GOTTSCHALK (Re-examined). I believe the cloth produced is mine.

THOMAS FRENCH . I am a builder—I keep a licensed house at Clapton—I am the landlord of 17A, Overbury Street, Clapton Park—on 4th November I let the house to Leary, Thomas, and Myers—they called at the Globe—they all spoke about it, and said they wished to take it—I said the rent was 28l. a year; they told me they were going to carry on a rag and wardrobe dealer's business, and I said it was a very good thing; I thought it would do—they gave the name of Mr. and Mrs. Myers—I took it for granted it was Mr. Myers—my agent made out the receipt to Myers—the half-sovereign deposit was shoved along the counter; I cannot say by whom—I took it for granted Mr. or Mrs. Myers would pay the rent—they took possession the following Tuesday or Wednesday—I did not go to the house after that; I never do—they said they would pay the rent weekly, and I would rather take it weekly, because they don't always pay; they sometimes run away, and I like to get it when I can—I cannot say who paid the rent—my agent, Mr. Crafford, collected it,

CHARLES CRAFFORD . I am agent to Mr. French—I was present when the three prisoners came to the Globe public-house—I made out this receipt—I did not notice who paid the deposit—I went to the house and collected the rent twice—one of the three prisoners paid it; I could not say which.

Jordan and Bassett received good characters.


The rest GUILTY . (See Third Court, Friday.)

THIRD COURT.—Wednesday, December 13th, 1882.

Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-134
VerdictGuilty > pleaded part guilty
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

Related Material

134. JOHN BALDWIN (45) , Stealing an order for the payment of 5l. Second Count, an order for 20l. Third Count, an order for 10l., the property of Henry Reissmann, his master. He

PLEADED GUILTY to the first Count.

MR. BEARD Prosecuted.

HENRY REISSMANN . I am a merchant, of 29, Watling Street—the prisoner has been about seven years my cashier and book-keeper—it was his duty to receive moneys on behalf of the firm and to enter them in the cash-book, to keep the books, and to attend to the general business in my absence—I was absent during August and a part of September—I left with the prisoner 10 or 12 blank cheques, payable to order, signed by me—he had authority to fill them up—one is dated 2nd August, for 20l., marked "A," and one is dated 19th August for 10l., marked "B"—they are in the prisoner's writing, except the signatures—the cheque for 20l. has been altered from "order" to "bearer"—it is initialled "H. R. and Co." by the prisoner—if he drew a cheque it was his duly to enter it up in the cash-book, so as to account for it—I produce the cash-book, which was kept by him entirely—there is no entry on 2nd August of a cheque for 20l., or subsequently, nor on 19th August of the cheque marked "B"—he had no authority to draw a cheque without booking it—those two cheques were returned by my bankers paid—I produce another cheque for 5l., dated 27th May, marked "C," signed by me and filled up by the prisoner—there is no entry of that in the book—it is drawn for petty cash—it was returned to me paid—he wanted some money, no doubt, for petty cash, and sent to me for a cheque, and I sent it up—he has not accounted for those several sums—the cheque of 19th August for 10l. is "Pay Mr. Edwards," and is endorsed by him.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. I went to Germany on 3rd August, early in the morning—I left business on the 2nd, about 5 o'clock—I took money with me, which is entered up—it is a new thing to me if you brought me 20l. in cash—you gave me some money on 2nd August—finding the cheque for 20l. was not entered up, I spoke about it.

SAMUEL EDWARDS . I keep a restaurant at 29, Watling Street, on the ground floor of the prosecutor's house—the prisoner came to me on 19th August and asked me if I would give him cash for this cheque for 10l., as Mr. Reissmann was out of town and he wanted to pay a bill—I did so, and paid it to my banker's next morning—I never heard anything more of it until the present proceedings—this is my endorsement—I did not cross it; it was crossed.

WILLIAM ROWDEN . I am a boot manufacturer, of 5, Hanway Street,

Oxford Street, and am a customer of the prosecutor's—on 11th April I paid 20l. on account to the prisoner at 29, Watling Street—this is his receipt.

Cross-examined. Sometimes Mr. Reissmann has been present when I have paid you money—it has sometimes been by cheques, but on this occasion it was cash to the best of my recollection.

HENRY REISSMANN (Re-examined). In April last Mr. Rowden owed me some money—on 11th April it was entered in this cash-book, W. Rowden, on account, 15l."—this receipt "E" is for 20l—the prisoner had no authority to take 5l.—I was present when he was given in custody in November—I said "It is once more my painful duty to call your attention to irregularities in the accounts"—he said "It is no good going into figures; I know it all"—if I said before the Magistrate "The prisoner had no authority to sign my name on receipts," I meant he had no authority to sign cheques—I had on various occasions spoken to him about signing letters and receipts, and said he ought to sign "For Henry Reissmann and Co.;" but as he was very strong in language and very quick, to prevent unpleasantness I let him sign receipts and letters in my name—these are the cash-book and the petty cash-book—I found on the credit side in May an addition of 141l. 19s. 8 1/2 d. spent for the firm—on making that addition I find it is 136l. 19s. 8 1/2 d., 5l. less, which he does not account for—in July there is an addition on one page of 85l. 9s. 7 1/2 d.—I find it is 75l. 9s. 7 1/2 d. exactly 10l. less—that was during my absence, in August—on the debtor side, where he has put down 53l. 16s. received as the addition, I find it is 63l. 16s., exactly 10l. more—on the credit side he adds up moneys spent 61l. 1s. 1d., and the addition only represents 51l. 1s. 11d., exactly 10l. less—as far as I can find, his deficiencies amount to about 200l.

Cross-examined. The books were lying open on the desk, so that I could look at them if I wished—I never added them up—I had a duplicate key to your money drawer—I could take money out when I liked—I only found out about 12 months ago that I had another key—I tried all sorts of keys to get one to fit—when you have been away for, perhaps, half an hour, I might have required a shilling or two, and if I had not it in my pocket, then I would take it and put the amount on a piece of paper and give it to you as soon as you came in for you to enter it up in the petty cash-book—I have never spent money without doing that—you never told me there was a deficiency of a penny in your petty cash.

Re-examined. I put implicit faith in the prisoner—I could not have gone into the cash-books at that time, because I was away—his petty cashbook was always pages behind in addition—I asked him why he did not make his additions up—this was a constant source of unpleasantness between us—he said he could do it at once, but he never said that he was a penny short in his cash.

WILLIAM SAUNDERS (City Detective). On 17th November the prisoner was given into my custody—the prosecutor said "What have you done with all this money?" he said "I have been unfortunate and spent it. "

Cross-examined. You said "I have spent it," and not "I have not spent it"

The prisoner in his defence said that the cheque for 20l. of 2nd August was while Mr. Reissmann was in town, and that Mr. Reissmann had the money in 20 sovereigns, and that the cheque on Mr. Edwards for 20l. was drawn on a Saturday, and he must have had something to pay with that

money or he should not have asked for it, and though he had been neglectful, the money he was short of was not due to any criminal intent.

HENRY REISSMANN (Re-examined). I first discovered defalcations in the accounts 15 months ago—I was absent about five weeks—the prisoner gave me German money—I cannot say how much English money I had—he had 3l. 5s. a week and no commission.

NOT GUILTY on Second and Third Counts. Sentence on First Count.—Twelve Months' Hard Labour.

11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-135
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

Related Material

135. THEODOR THENNEE (45) and FREDERICK ROHLEDER (31) , Forging an endorsement to an order for 10l. with intent to defraud. MR. HORACE AVORY Prosecuted.

BRYANT LARKIN . I am cashier at the bank of Messrs. Herries, Farquhar, and Co., of 61, St. James's Street—we have a customer named Dora Birch, a married lady—in June of this year 20 circular notes were issued to her—before 30th November 19 of these notes had come back to the bank bearing her genuine endorsement—on 30th November, about 1.30 p.m., the prisoner Thennee came and presented this note purporting to be endorsed by Dora Birch—it is one of those issued to Mrs. Birch—I at once saw the endorsement was a forgery, as I knew her writing perfectly well—I said "How did you get possession of this note?" he said in very imperfect English that a friend had given it to him—I said "Where is your friend?" he said "He is outside"—I then sent a messenger out with him—I saw that he was lame and could not escape—the messenger returned with him and with Rohleder—I asked Rohleder where he got the note from, and he said a friend had given it to him—I laid the facts before our partners, and Mr. Farquhar gave the prisoners in custody—the circular notes bear Mrs. Birch's endorsement.

Cross-examined by Thennee (through an Interpreter). I understood you to say "a man" or "a friend" had given the note to you—Rohleder admitted in your presence that he gave it to you.

Cross-examined by Rohleder. You did not try to escape—you said something to my master about letting him have time to find the money, and that you would find the man who gave you the note and have him locked up—you said something about a friend in a public-house.

EDWARD FROST (Policeman C 194). I was sent for to the bank and the prisoners were charged with forging and uttering a note for 10l.—Rohleder said "It was given to me by a man named Becker in a public-house in the neighbourhood of Cranbourne Street, Leicester Square"—Thennee made no reply; he could not speak English.

Cross-examined by Rohleder. You went quietly to the station—I took these papers from you there—I looked through them and found nothing relating to the charge—you spoke of a fair man with curly hair who used a public-house in Cranbourne Street.

FREDERICK CHURCH (Detective Officer). I was at the station when the prisoners were charged—Rohleder said he had received the note from a man named Becker or Baker at a public-house near Cranbourne Street, a clerk about 22 years of age, fair, and living at a lodging-house in Castle Street—he did not write down the name of the public-house—he wrote his own down and Becker's name—I made inquiries in Castle Street and Cranbourne Street, but found no one answering the description.

Cross-examined by Rohleder, You did not give me the name of the public-house.

Thennee's Statement before the Magistrate. Read: "I met Rohleder and then he showed me this note. I said 'You are very rich,' and he said 'Yes. I now want the Post Directory to find out where the banker is residing.' I said I was going to the same neighbourhood and would go with him. He proposed to me to go in and present the cheque. I did so. A gentleman asked me how I came by it. I said 'The man who gave me the note is outside. ' I told him I would go out and fetch him, and I went outside and fetched him in. Outside Rohleder admitted he was not the owner of the cheque, and had sent me inside. "

Witnesses for Rohleder.

FRANZ SCHNOCH (Interpreted). I am assistant to Mr. Pietschenbach at a public-house in Cranbourne Court—I heard Becker say "I have given the cheque to Rohleder"—Becker had it in his possession more than three months—he remained at the house till the night when the Alhambra was burnt down—he then frequented the same public-house and neighbourhood as before.

Cross-examined. Becker is still in London, but where I cannot say—he is a merchant—he has no situation at present—I cannot say if I have ever seen him with any goods—I saw him with a cheque, but it is so long ago that I cannot fix the date—he showed it to me, and said that a cheque for 10l. had been found in Leicester Square—I did not look at it sufficiently to see if it had the name of Dora Birch on the back—on the Wednesday night Becker gave the cheque to Rohleder, and on Thursday morning he told me had done so—he did not say what he was going to do with it—Rohleder did not say that he had cashed it—I did not know whether it was genuine, nor did he, because he asked some persons there what they thought of it—they all said that it was good, but they did not know whether it was to be uttered or put in circulation or cashed, because nobody knew where Becker had got it from—Becker is not in London now.

JEAN WEIMHARDT . On 30th November I was at the Crown Tavern, near the Black Swan, and Rohleder told me had a cheque from somebody to change.

Cross-examined. This is it—Rohleder showed it at the public-house the night before he was arrested—I saw him give it to another man—I saw the name of Dora Birch on it—he asked me where the banker lived, and I said "We can find that in a directory"—he did not ask me whether it was genuine, and I did not hear him ask anybody else—he showed it to several men in the public bar, and they said it must be good—I know Becker—he is a merchant—he has nothing to do at present—the last time I saw him was in Titchfield Street looking out for a lodging—he used to live at a lodging-house in Castle Street—since this case begun he has not been in the public-house.

JOHN CHARLES ZENKER . I live at 9, West Street, Soho, and know Becker—I know he had a cheque in his possession—he offered it to me about four weeks ago—his real name is Seligman—he asked me what I thought about it; I told him I did not know anything at all—I said "I never have anything to do with things like that. "

Cross-examined. I never had any conversation with Rohleder about this cheque—when Becker asked my opinion about the cheque I said nothing.

Thennee's Defence (Interpreted). I think I have proved my innocence. I received the cheque from Rohleder; he has stated so several times. He sent me into the bank. I did not want the cheque, nor did I know when I went in that it was forged. When I got to the police-station I did not know what I was there for. Before I went into the bank I went to Rhemhardt, a money changer, and asked him if it was a genuine cheque. He said "Yes, the cheque is a good one provided it comes from honest hands. "I communicated that answer to Rohleder, who said "Yes, this cheque came from honest hands," and instructed me to go to the bank. I went to the bank, and the cashier asked me where I got it. I told him from a man who was standing outside. I called Rohleder in, and he was asked "Did you send this man with the cheque into the bank?" He said "Yes. "He was asked where he got it. I understood him to say "I had it from a friend," but the rest of the conversation, which was in English, I did not understand. Then we were taken in custody, and at the station Rohleder told the inspector that he gave me the cheque. Before the Magistrate he twice stated the same thing, and to-day he states it again. When 1 went out to fetch Rohleder in, he, without the slightest hesitation, came back with me, although he might have run away. All I did was for Rohleder, and I am sorry for it.

Rohleder's Defence. On 30th November, between 9 and 10 o'clock, I came to the Black Swan, and there saw Becker. I knew him for three weeks, and lent him some money some time before. I asked him for it and he gave me that cheque and said it was all the money he had, and I could give him the change to-morrow. I believed it to be genuine, and as it was written in French I asked in the public-house frequently if they thought it genuine. Some said yes, and some said they did not think it was a cheque. I met this man next morning and asked him if he knew anything about French cheques. He said he was well acquainted with a man named Reinhardt, a money changer, close to Coventry Street, and could go there. He went inside and came out and said "The banker says the cheque is all right, and has told me where to go to the bank, in St. James Street." We went there. I said "It is no use both going in with one cheque; you go in and I will wait outside." I waited ten minutes and saw him come out with a porter. I believed the cheque was genuine. They called me in and I went in directly, and the governor told mo it was a forgery. I said that it was given to me partly in payment, and I asked the inspector to allow a constable to go with me to fetch this man. I gave every information at the station about Becker, who has been knocking about the place for weeks, and the police have not given themselves any trouble to trace him. If I had known it was a bad cheque I should not have gone to the head bank where they knew the customer's signature.


For cases tried in Old Court, Thursday and Friday, and New Court, Thursday, see Essex, Kent, and Surrey cases.

THIRD COURT.—Thursday, December 14th, 1882.

Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-136
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

Related Material

136. SAMUEL DARGAVEL (46) PLEADED GUILTY to unlawfully leaving England and taking with him property to the amount of 200l. within four months of his bankruptcy.— Four Days' Imprisonment.

11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-137
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

Related Material

137. WILLIAM SMITH and BENJAMIN BLACKHALL, Burglary in the dwelling-house of William Wilmott, and stealing a dress, a chemise, and other articles, his property, and a coat and other articles belonging to Richard Hayes.

MR. CARTER Prosecuted,

WILLIAM WILMOTT . I occupy a part of 69, Napier Street, Hoxton—on Saturday, at 9 o'clock, 2nd December, I left everything safe—the door was left on the latch for convenience—I returned at 10 o'clock—I left nobody in the house—I went to the bedroom and saw a candlestick on the floor and everything ransacked; amongst other things a black suit was gone, worth about 8l.—this shirt was afterwards shown to me which was taken from the prisoner—it is not marked.

WATSON WESTMACOTT (Policeman K 221). I was on duty with a sergeant about 5 p.m. on 3rd December in Brierley Street, Bethnal Green, and saw the two prisoners with a third man—the prisoners were each carrying a bundle—the sergeant said "What have you got in the parcel?"—Smith said "Clothing"—I said to Blackhall "What have you got in that parcel?"—he said "Clothing"—I asked him where he got them from—Smith said "I have been to a funeral"—Blackhall said "I bought them in Petticoat Lane this morning"—the sergeant took Smith's bundle and I took Blackhall's—we untied the parcels at the station, and in Blackhall's there was a black coat, vest, and trousers, and in the other parcel different kinds of wearing apparel—it is half a mile from Brierley Street to the station—on the way to the station Smith threw something over a fence—I went back about two hours afterwards and searched, and found this jemmy (produced).

Cross-examined by Blackhall. The third man walked away—you stopped before we came up to you.

GEORGE THOMAS (Police Sergeant K 24). I was with Westmacott—I took Smith, and said "What have you got in that parcel?"—he said "Why?"—I said "We are police-officers"—he said "I have been to a funeral"—he afterwards said he bought them in the Lane—he threw the parcel down and told me to carry it myself—I took it up, and on going to the station saw him throw something with his left hand—we went to the place and found it—it was dark, it being about 5.20 p.m.—this pawn-tick was found on Smith at the station (For a pair of trousers and a waist-coat, pawned at Mr. Tucker's 263, Kingsland Road)—the shirt was found on the remand a week afterwards.

WILLIAM POCOCK . I am shopman to Mr. Tucker, of 263, Kingsland Road, pawnbroker—I produce a waistcoat and trousers which I took in pledge from a man for 4s. on 2nd December about 10 p.m.—this ticket is in my writing.

GEORGE THOMAS (Re-examined). I went to the address given on the ticket, but did not find anybody answering the description there.

RICHARD HAYES . I have the first floor of the house in question with my wife—I left the house on 2nd December at 7.45, locked the doors, and put the key in my pocket—I returned just before 11 and found the

doors forced open and various articles stolen—this is my wife's dress—I also identify these other articles (produced)—they are worth about 3l.

WILLIAM WILMOTT (Re-examined). This waistcoat is mine, but not these trousers—this black cloth coat, waistcoat, and trousers are mine, I believe.

The Prisoners' Statements before the Magistrate read. Smith says: "We bought the things in the Lane for 12s.; the shirt was with the other things." Blackhall says: "That is quite correct. The other man was going to take us to his house, and when the policeman came he ran away."

Blackhall in his defence stated that he bought the things in Petticoat Lane.

GEORGE THOMAS (Re-examined). I found marks on the doors, which I compared with the jemmy, and they corresponded exactly.

WILLIAM POCOCK (Re-examined). The pawnbroker's is not more than a quarter of an hour's walk from the place of the burglary.

GUILTY. Twelve Months Hard Labour each.

11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-138
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

Related Material

138. THOMAS OWEN (19) , Stealing two dresses, value 3l. 10s., and other articles, belonging to Joseph Swain.

MR. COLE Prosecuted.

HENRY PEARCEY . I am a butcher, of 102, St. Peter's Street, Bethnal Green—Mr. Swain is my landlord—on Wednesday, 29th November, between 6 and 7 p.m., I was in bed—I go to bed early as I have to get up early—I had cut my arm that afternoon, and was not able to sleep—I heard a knocking at the door—I took no notice—I heard people walk upstairs and go into the front bedroom—I thought it was Mr. Swain removing some things—I then heard them go down three steps leading into my room, and they stood outside for a few minutes, and then opened the door—the prisoner walked in with a candle and another man with him—I could see the prisoner's face—he stopped for a moment, seeing me in bed, and said "We will go for him"—I jumped out of bed and knocked him down; the other man followed him up, and I knocked him down—they cleared out after that—I dressed myself, and communicated with Mrs. Swain, and assisted her in searching the premises—we found a bundle tied up at the bottom of the stairs—the things in it had been taken from the front room, three steps above where I sleep—the next evening I was sitting in the kitchen with Mr. Swain and a friend of theirs when a knock came at the door—Mr. Swain went to the door, and the prisoner asked if somebody lived there; I forget the name—Mr. Swain said "What do you want him for?"—he said "He owes me 3s. 6d. "—I walked from the kitchen to the door, and asked him what he wanted—he said the same—I asked him if he came for the 3s. 6d. or for the bundle he had left behind him last night—I went out because I recognised his voice directly as the voice of the man who said "We will go for him"—he said "You have made a mistake"—I said "I have not made any mistake," and collared him and gave him in custody—there is a single man odger downstairs.

Cross-examined. I do not know whether you came round to the house on Wednesday night—I had never seen you before.

KATE SWAIN . I am the wife of Joseph Swain, of 102, St. Peter's Street—on the evening of 29th November Pearcey said something to me, in consequence of which we searched the premises and found a bundle in the

passage on the ground floor, with my things wrapped up in it, three jackets, a satin scarf, a little apron of my child's, a feather, and a teapot—I had been next door to see my mother—my husband was away at work—I went there about 5.35 and returned about 6.35 p.m.—my husband came back a little past eight—after that another bundle was found by a woman at the corner shop, three doors off—it contained two pairs of trousers, a coat, a waistcoat, and a pair of boots, belonging to my husband—they had been taken from my room upstairs, which is three steps above Pearcey's room—Mr. Wilkinson occupies the room on the ground floor.

JOSEPH SWAIN . I am the husband of the last witness, and am the landlord of the house—on 30th November I was in the kitchen with Mr. Pearcey and a friend—the prisoner knocked at the door—I opened it, and he said "Is Mr. Walton in?"—I said "What do you want him for?"—he said "I want him for some wood," or "work done," I am not sure which—I asked him how much he wanted—he said "3s. 6d"—I said it was a curious time of night to come for money—it was then nearly 11 o'clock—Mr. Pearcey said "That is him," and as he walked out to the door the prisoner seemed to shuffle away from the door and took his pipe out of his mouth—Mr. Pearcey took him by the collar and said "What do you want? Have you come here for 3s. 6d. or the bundle you left last night?"—he said "You have made a mistake; it was not me"—he was given in charge—Walton is Mr. Wilkinson's acting name—Mrs. Swain was at her mother's at this time—she would not sleep in the house after this for a week—Mr. Walton was not called at the police-court—I have ascertained that he owed the prisoner's master 3s. 6d.

JOSEPH PARDO (Policeman K 267). On 30th November Mr. Pearcey gave the prisoner into my custody—I asked Mr. Swain what for, and he said "For stripping my place last night"—the prisoner said "You have made a mistake; I am not the man"—he said at the station that he was at work at the time, and had worked for a man named Steward.

ELIZA EMMERSON . I live at 103, Gossett Street, near the prosecutor's house—on 29th November somebody, who I do not know, brought this bundle to me, which Mrs. Swain afterwards claimed—he said he had found it outside—he came next morning to see if it was claimed.

Witness for the Defence.

RICHARD STEWARD . I am a master carman, of 174, Brady Street, Bethnal Green—the prisoner has been in my employ 18 months, during which time I have trusted him with money and valuable things in the van, and found him honest—on 22nd November he said that a young man named Walton living in St. James's Street wanted some things removed to Chelsea—I said "Very well, send the young man round to me"—the next night the young man came to me and agreed for the job to be done by the hour, and I said I would send a man next morning—I sent a van in the morning at 7 o'clock—it got home about 4 o'clock, and I went to find the young man to get the money—he said he had only been paid 10s.—I made the bill 12s.—I told the prisoner to go and get the other 2s.—I asked him if he knew where he lived, and he said "102, St Peter's Street"—he said he wanted his tea, and I told him to go to-morrow night—on the night the robbery was committed he did not leave work till between 6.30 and 7 o'clock—in the morning I asked him about the 2s., and he said he would go that night—I never

had any complaint of him—I had a character with him from M'Namara, the railway contractor.

Cross-examined. I sent him three times for the money—I do not know where St. Peter's Street is—Brady Street is near the Bethnal Green Junction of the Great Eastern Railway—I have been carman there for three years—the prisoner lives with his father.

JOSEPH PARDO (Re-examined). It is about five minutes' walk from Brady Street to St. Peter's Street.


11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-139
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

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139. THOMAS OWEN was again indicted for stealing six tame fowls and five tame pigeons, the goods of James Tillett.

MR. BLACKWELL Prosecuted.

HENRY GRIFFIN (Policeman K 349). On 27th November, at 6.15 a.m., I saw the prisoner in Bath Street, Praed Street, carrying a bag on his shoulder—I said "What have you got?"—he said "Fowls; I am going to take them to the railway station for my master"—he then deliberately struck me in the mouth, threw the bag down, and ran up the street—I gave chase some distance, and finding I could not catch him, I returned and picked up the bag, which contained six fowls, five pigeons, and a woman's jacket—I afterwards heard that he was in custody—he had on a rough overcoat, torn at the elbow—on the Friday following, when he was placed with five other men at the police-station, I at once identified him—another young man was brought to the station at 2 a.m. on suspicion of stealing the fowls, but I saw he was not the man—I went to the prisoner's lodgings the same day with another officer, and I saw a coat on the bed—I believe it to be the same that was worn by the prisoner on 27th November.

ELIZABETH TILLETT . I am the wife of James Tillett, of 159, Cambridge Road, Whitechapel—I was called to the police-station on 27th November, and identified six fowls—I last saw them on Sunday afternoon, 26th—they are worth about 15s.—I lost five pigeons at the same time, worth about half that—they were in an outhouse in the garden.

LOUISA THOMAS . I am the wife of Albert Thomas, of 17, Essex Street, Bethnal Green—I was called to the police-station about 27th November, and identified my little girl's jacket—it was left in the back room downstairs on the Sunday night, between 11 and 12 o'clock—the window was fastened—I got up on the 27th at about 7 o'clock, found the window open, and missed this jacket, coat, and apron—the value of the things is about 15s.—the window was fastened the night before.

GUILTY .— Fifteen Months' Hard Labour.

11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-140
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

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140. FREDERICK WHITWORTH (20) , Stealing a gelding, cart, and a set of harness, the property of William Marler.

MR. MILNE Prosecuted.

WILLIAM MARLER . I am a cage maker, of 147, Old Bethnal Green Road—on 9th September the prisoner came to me, and said "Have you got a trap to lend me for an hour or two?"—I said "No," because I required it; but he said "I have had an accident with my horse, if you could do me the favour, I only live in Bishop's Road, I shall be obliged"—I thought I had seen him before, but I think I mistook him for another person—I promised to lend him mine if it were not for more than two hours—the chaise, harness, and horse were worth about 16l.—I next saw

my pony at the Depository, at the Elephant and Castle, about nine days after—I went with Sergeant Waller the same night to a person named Dixon, who bought it of the prisoner—I then went to Chapman, a dealer in Camberwell, who had it in the Depository—I saw the cart in Walworth Road at a cart builder's—it was in several pieces—I am certain as to the identity of all the property—I cannot tell what name the prisoner gave me, but the address was 120, Bishop's Road.

WILLIAM WALLER (Detective K). On 18th September I went with Marler to Dixon's house, where he identified some harness which Dixon had in his van—I went with Marler to Mr. Pilbeam, where we found the cart, all to pieces; and then we went to the Depository in the Old Kent Road, which we heard of from Mr. Dixon.

EDWARD DIXON . I live at 154, Rodney Road, Walworth—on the evening of the 9th September the prisoner came to my house and said "Will you buy a pony, cart, and harness?"—I said "What do you want for it?"—he said "Is your name Dixon?"—I said "Yes"—he said "Do you recollect two years ago seeing me come home from Croydon races?"—I said "I think I do"—he said "The gentleman at the corner recommended me to come to you"—he showed me a pony, cart, and harness, which he offered to sell for 12l.—I said "It is a Russian pony, and the cart is not up to much; I will swap it, if you like," and I gave him my pony, cart, and harness for his lot—he said "I have not got a cart," so I lent him my cart, and said "You can have it till Monday, and if you do not bring it back on Monday I shall charge you 1s. a day "—I sold the pony to Mr. Ransford, a publican and dealer in horses, and the cart to Mr. Pilbeam—I sent the harness up to Smithfield, as I could not sell it for the price I wanted—Marler came to my house some days after and identified the harness.

By the COURT. I am a hosier and haberdasher, and occasionally deal in ponies—I do not know Mr. Marler's place—I should think it is about four miles from mine.

The prisoner handed in a written defence, stating that a young man called at his house with a pony and cart, saying they were his own, and asked him to go with him; that he did so, and they called at two or three public-houses and at Dixon's, and exchanged it for a larger one; that he parted with his friend at King's Cross, and never heard anything more till he was charged.

WILLIAM MARLER (Re-examined). No agreement was made as to charge—I did it more as a favour, as he said he had met with an accident.

GUILTY .— Twelve Months' Hard Labour.

11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-141
VerdictNot Guilty > no evidence

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141. FREDERICK WHITWORTH was again indicted for stealing a gelding, cart, and harness, the property of James Morgan , on which MR. MILNE offered no evidence.


NEW COURT.—Friday, December 15th 1882.

Before Mr. Recorder.

11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-142
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceMiscellaneous > sureties

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142. HENRY ASHFORD (44) , Unlawfully publishing a malicious libel of and concerning William Bradwell, to which he pleaded a justification.


During the progress of the case the prisoner withdrew his plea of justification and stated that he was guilty of the libel, upon which the Jury found that verdict .— To enter into recognisances.

11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-143
VerdictGuilty > with recommendation
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

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143. BENJAMIN COCKRELL (20) and FREDERICK GOLLUP (17) , Robbery with violence with others on John Helsdon, and stealing a hat and 2s., his property.

MR. MONTAGU WILLIAMS Prosecuted; MR. BLACKWELL defended Gollup.

JOHN HELSDON . I live at 29 L, Beaconsfield Buildings, Stroud Vale, Islington—on 6th September, at a quarter to 1, I was going home, and four lads came round me and asked for some halfpence; I gave them 4d., and I had no sooner left them than the prisoner Cockrell caught hold of my arms and held them back, while Gollup and a man hot in custody put their hands into my pocket and took out 2s., but I had 8s. in that pocket—Cockrell let go of me, and I said "I know you all, I have your portraits; "Cockrell said "Have you?" and gave me a blow in my face which gave me a black eye, and Gollup and another man hit me in the same place—they knocked me down, my hat fell off, and a lad ran off with it—there were four of them, and I described them to the police—I saw Cockrell on Monday evening at Caledonian Road Station, and picked him out from eight others, and on Tuesday night I picked Gollup out from eight others—I looked at them directly they formed round me, and have no doubt they are the men.

Cross-examined by Cockrell. I know you by your face—I saw you when you struck me—I am as sure of you as I am that this is my right arm.

Cross-examined by MR. BLACKWELL. I had been to a concert with some shipmates at 9 o'clock—I had a glass of ale; it was filled several times—there was a lamp opposite, and it was moonlight.

JOHN BOWDELL . I am a costermonger, and live at 9 K, Beaconsfield Buildings—on 26th November I was coming home at 12.30, and saw the two prisoners standing outside the Pembroke Castle, with another man—that is 50 yards from Beaconsfield Buildings.

Cross-examined by MR. BLACKWELL. I took notice of the date, as I had paid some money for my father at a club, and 1 only do that four times a year—I had seen the prisoners in the neighbourhood before.

GEORGE WIDENEY . On 27th November, at 4 p.m., I saw Cockrell in Bennerton Street, Caledonian Road—I said "You answer the description of a man concerned with three others in assaulting and robbing a man in Beaconsfield Street on Sunday morning;" he said "You have made a mistake"—I said "I have only the description the loser gave, and he will be able to identify those who did it"—he said "I was in bed at the time, I was not in Beaconsfield Street after 8; I can prove where I was; I will go to the station"—I took him there—he was placed with seven others, and Helsdon identified him—on 28th November, at 3 p.m., I saw Gollup in the Great Northern Goods Yard, standing by some lads who were gambling—I said "I shall take you in custody for being concerned with three others in robbing a man on the 26th"—he said "What man?" I said "A man who lives in Beaconsfield Biddings"—he said "I don't know the man"—on the way to the station he said" How did Ginger get on?" I said "He is remanded to to-morrow week"—Cockrell goes by the name of Ginger, and Gollup by the name of Roger—on the Tuesday night, at 10.30,

Gollup was placed among seven others at the station, and Helsdon identified him.

Cross-examined by Cockrell. Two of the men with you at the station wore watches and chains.

Cross-examined by MR. BLACKWELL. I saw Gollup three yards before I got to him—he did not try to run away, as I got him between some coal trucks.

Witnesses for the Defence.

EMILY READING . I live at 34, Clifford Street, Caledonian Road—on Saturday night, 25th November, I met Cockrell in Bennerton Street at 7.30—1 left him, and met him again at 8, and stayed drinking with him till a quarter to 11, and left him at Southampton Street—he went in, and I came away.

Cross-examined. Bennerton Street is only a few yards from Beaconsfield Buildings—I never heard him called Ginger, and I have known him three months—I go out with him.

CHRISTIANA GOLLUP . I am Gollup's mother, and live at 440, Caledonian Road—on 26th November I went home at 12.45 with another son, and found the prisoner at home in bed—I am sure it was not later, as the market clock struck the quarter, and I said I did not know it was so late.

Cross-examined. I went to the police-court, and my son said "My mother is in Court," but I did not hear it, as I am hard of hearing, and did not go forward—we had been to a friendly lead for a widow I know very well.

CHARLES GOLLUP . I am the prisoner's brother, and am a French-polisher—on 26th November I was coming home with my mother from a benefit, and when we were at St. James's Road the market clock struck a quarter to 1—I know it was a quarter to 1 as it struck three quarters, and being Saturday night we were turned out at 12—my brother was in bed when we got home.

Cross-examined. I know Cockrell in the neighbourhood—I never heard him called Ginger—my brother has also seen him, but I have not seen them in company—they would not allow me to give evidence at the police-court.

GUILTY. Recommended to mercy by the Prosecutor .— Fifteen Months' Hard Labour each .

THIRD COURT.—Friday, December 15th, 1882.

Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-144
VerdictGuilty > unknown; Guilty > lesser offence
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour; Imprisonment > hard labour

Related Material

144. WILLIAM MUNDLE THOMPSON (26) and JOHN FREDERICK BARNETT (40) , Forging and uttering an order for the delivery of four casks of blood albumen.

MESSRS. GREEN and H. GURNER Prosecuted; MR. MONTAGU WILLIAMS appeared for Thompson, and MR. FULTON for Barnett.

WILLIAM BARKER . I live at Erith, and am the sole acting partner in the firm of Graham, Wilsea, and Co., auctioneers, valuers, and agents, who carry on business in Mark Lane—I know the prisoners by sight—about 13th or 15th July last Thompson called on me and said he wanted an advance upon blood albumen—I cannot say if he brought this advice note with him—he handed me this delivery orders—I filled in this "Deliver

to Graham, Wilsea, and Co.," and he signed it "W. M. Thompson and Co. "—I made him an advance upon it—he signed a form stating that he was entitled to deal with us, which we always make any one sign who obtains an advance, and also a promissory note for 45l.—I have not got those here, I will send for them—I advanced him 45l.—this order was lodged with the Carron Company, requesting them to transfer and hold to our order—I did not sign this document (B)—there is no other active partner in our firm—I can't say if either of the prisoners called on me with reference to this document (C)—that is my signature to it. (Read: "London, 10th Aug., '82. The Superintendent of Carron Wharf. Please allow bearer to sample undermentioned goods in——ship marked K 2/2 1/2, 4 casks blood albumen, further numbers 2/2 6/7. Graham, Wilsea, and Co. ") Endorsed on it is "Received one sample, Wm. Thompson, 12. 8. 82"—I did not sign "B," nor did I authorise anybody to sign it—I have no such forms as it is written on in my possession, and never have had—I know nothing about that order—I first saw it the day before I was summoned to the Mansion House, on a Friday, about a fortnight ago—I have taken proceedings against the Carron Company in respect of these goods—I believe their invoice value was 70l. odd.

Cross-examined by MR. WILLIAMS. I advanced 45l. in cash, and received a promissory note for the amount of the advance, 45l.—we charged the interest paid at the time—I can't say now what the interest was—we are City auctioneers and valuers—we make advances on goods—I conducted the transaction—I cannot tell from memory what the rate of interest was, the document will show—our business is moderately large—I have a financial partner, but not in the business, a sleeping partner.

FREDERICK JOHN SMALE . I live at Peabody's Buildings, Mint Street, and am a landing clerk for the Carron Company—I know the prisoners—I believe I had seen Thompson before the 13th July—he called and made some inquiry about some sugar-of-lead—he inquired whether four casks of albumen were landed or not—this document (A) is an ordinary advice note of the Carron Company that was sent to him at 127, Queen Victoria Street—on 10th August "C" was brought to me by Thompson after the goods had been sampled; he signed it "Wm. Thompson"—"Received sample" is in my writing—the sampling order from us is signed by "Wm. Wilsea and Co. "—on 17th August I went out to post a letter, and when outside saw both prisoners walking towards Lower East Smithfield, in the direction of our place, and in conversation—when I returned to the wharf I saw Barnett in the office on the first floor, at one of the windows—he appeared to be applying for the delivery of some goods—it is my duty to make out the charge upon goods, but cash is received by the cashier—Barnett had a document before him—I cannot say whether it was "B"—it was not at my window—I did not speak to Barnett about the charges—I believe some charges were paid; I saw some cash passed over the counter—after that Barnett applied to the foreman, Burrell, for the goods, and Barnett went downstairs by himself, and he and Burrell afterwards came upstairs to where I was—Burrell handed this document to me—Barnett was standing by waiting, and I wrote on the back of this order "Received 4 casks, 17.8.82," and Barnett signed it in the name of "W. H. Boulton"—I don't remember him saying anything.

Cross-examined by MR. FULTON. I did not see the van which took the four

casks away from the Carron Wharf—they must have been taken away in the van the same day—they were heavy things—it is usual to require the signature of the carman who takes the articles away—I did not see the carman who took those four casks away—"Received four casks, W. H. Boulton" is the signature we should require from the carman if he had been there—I do not know that the name of the carman was Boulton and that he cannot read or write—I did not see the carman myself; Mr. Burrell did.

JOHN BURRELL . I live at 34, Fordham Street, Commercial Road, and am delivery foreman in the employ of the Carron Company—my duty is to receive all orders from persons applying for goods and to give delivery of goods—I remember four casks of blood albumen being at our wharf—Barnett called on 17th August with reference to them and presented this document (B), nobody was with him—he had a one-horse van with a carman in the van—he gave orders to load the casks and then went downstairs and walked towards the Hermitage Bridge close by—I loaded the casks—Barnett came back after they were in the van and signed for them in the office on this document "W. H. Boulton"—Smale and the cashier were present besides myself—Barnett then walked downstairs and said he had no change—he came up again about some other goods and went away and the van left—he had paid the charges—I saw him again two or three weeks ago; he presented this document "C" to me—he signed for the samples up in the office, "Received samples ex three casks brown sugar lead, 23/11/82, pro MacEwen Anderson and Co., per J. Burrell"—on the other side is "6, Crosby Square, London, 21/11/82, Messrs. the Carron Company. Please give bearer samples of three casks of brown sugar of lead lying to our order at your wharf. Signed Mac-Ewen, Anderson, and Co. "Barnett signed that "J. Burrell" in my presence—he first signed "J. B. "—I told him to give the full signature and he did, "Burrell"—Spence had come up and halloaed out "Burrell, the man here wants a sample"—the samples of sugar of lead were handed to him and he took them away.

Cross-examined by MR. FULTON. When he first came and signed Boulton, the carman, was there—the carman who presents an order has to sign for the receipt of the goods—I don't know that the carman's name was Boulton; he came upstairs and never signed an order—I made no remark about Barnett signing my name—I knew him quite well.

Re-examined. The carman who signs is the person who usually comes up to receive; in point of fact we usually have the signature of the person who presents the order—if the carman came with a clerk we should have the signature of the person who presented the order.

JOHN SPENCE . I live at 145, Minories, and am a landing clerk in the employ of the Carron Company—my duty is to see that goods are regularly forwarded and delivered—I know both prisoners by sight—I remember four casks of blood albumen lying at our wharf—Thompson called about them in July; I can't fix the date—he inquired whether the goods were landed—I told him they were not—he went away—I next saw him outside the old Carron Wharf on the same day as the delivery of the four casks—he was standing outside as though he was waiting for somebody—I did not see Barnett there—I did not see the delivery go—I saw the prisoners again about 21st November; they were together—I, with Sergeant Child,

followed them up to London Street, Fenchurch Street—I spoke to Thompson outside the wharf before they went away—the man was backing a van on to the top of a piano case—I said "You will smash that piano case"—on the next day I saw them down at the wharf again together, and followed them—Thompson remained outside the wharf—Barnett was inquiring of the cashier whether the three casks of sugar of lead were landed, and I listened; he got the three samples—he said he only wanted one, but he took the three—I saw him sign the name of J. Burrell on the back of the delivery order D—I turned round and said to the cashier in his presence" He has got good cheek to sign Burrell's name"—I don't know if he heard it—he left the wharf; I followed him; he joined the other prisoner and went together towards the Minories.

WILLIAM CORRICK . I am a merchant carrying on business at 8 and 9, Great Tower Street, under the name of Gilliard, Corrick, and Co.—I know Barnett—he called on me on 22nd or 23rd August with reference to four casks of blood albumen—he simply offered them for sale—I agreed to purchase them, and gave him 25l. for them in notes and gold, which I drew a cheque and sent to the bank for—that (produced) is the cheque for 25l. 8s. 3d.; 25l. for the prisoner and 8s. 3d. for charges—I sent one of my clerks to get it cashed—I do not remember which—he brought back the money in notes and gold and I handed it to Barnett and he gave me this receipt (produced), which he wrote and signed in my presence: "Received by cash same date. J. Barnett."

Cross-examined by MR. FULTON. He did not say anything about acting on agency—the blood albumen was at that time at Brewer's Quay—I had had no transaction with Barnett before—this is an ordinary document in the course of business—I had seen a sample of it.

FRANCIS GEORGE BOULT . I am head cashier at the City office of the National Provincial Bank of England—Gilliard, Corrick, and Co. have an account with us—on 23rd August a cheque was presented to us over the counter, purporting to be signed by Gilliard, Corrick, and Co., for 25l. 8s. 3d.—I can't say who presented it—I paid four 5l. notes and the rest in coin—the numbers of the notes are 50568 to 50571 inclusive, and the date is 8-7-82—they were new notes; we never pay away old ones.

THOMAS GASH . I am an inspector of the Bank of England—I produce four notes numbered 50568 to 50571, which have been returned to the Bank—note 50568, dated 8th July, 1882, is endorsed" Wm. Thompson, 147, Queen Victoria Street, E.C. "—it was paid into the Bank of England on 25th August, 1882, by the Postmaster-General; on the back was also a printed stamp" 19, Oxford Street, post-office, 23rd August, 1882. "

Cross-examined by MR. FULTON. The other notes bear no endorsement—50569 was paid in on 7th October, from our Hull branch—50570 was paid in on 28th August by the London and Westminster Bank—50571 was paid in on 30th August by Barclay, Bevan, and Co.—I communicated this information to Messrs. Freshfield and Williams—such a bank as the London and Westminster would keep a record of the source from which a bank note is paid in.

ROBERT CHILD (Detective Sergeant City Police). I received instructions about the prisoners and watched them; first on 21st November, outside the old Carron Wharf, East Smithfield—Barnett went in and Thompson waited outside till he returned—two days afterwards I saw them on their way to the Carron Company, crossing Tower Hill—I and other officers were

watching them there—I arrested them on the 25th—Williams and Sager brought them into the Detective Office and sent for me—I searched them—Barnett was carrying this bag, which contained three samples of brown sugar of lead and other things not relating to the charge; and on Thompson was this letter addressed to MacEwen, Anderson, and Co., 6, Crosby Square—I charged both of them with forging and uttering, well knowing it to be forged, a delivery order for the delivery of goods—Barnett said "I went down there and signed an endorsement for the delivery of goods," pointing to Thompson, "I did it for him. I regarded him as my principal in the matter. I sold those goods to a party to whom I was introduced by a Mr. Boditch, of Mincing Lane. I got the money for him, and gave the money to Thompson, merely getting 5 per cent, commission. I acted as an agent in the matter"—Thompson said nothing—Barnett wrote in my presence an envelope, "MESSRS. Digby, Tabor, and Co., Gresham Street"—I have been in the force 20 or 30 years, and have seen a good many handwritings—"bearer" on B looks to be the same handwriting as the envelope.

Cross-examined by MR. FULTON. I can't say if I have been examined as an expert before—I have not examined the writing before—it is the opinion I have formed of it now—Barnett had the copy of a lease he wished to send round to Messrs. Digby, Tabor, and Co., and I took it round—the top part, "Deliver to bearer," is the same handwriting in my opinion—the body of the document I should say was in Thompson's handwriting—it is not in Barnett's writing—Barnett made his statement in the presence of Thompson, who did not say anything then.

EDWIN WILLIAMS (City Detective). On 23rd November I watched the Carron Wharf, and saw the prisoners there about 3 in the afternoon outside the wharf, in conversation—then Barnett went inside, came out in a short time, and joined the other prisoner, had some further conversation with him, and then they left at Lower East Smithfield, where we followed them to several other parts of the City—I saw them on the 25th outside the Carron Wharf, and followed them to the Minories, where I arrested them—I said "I am a police officer, and am going to arrest you for obtaining goods from Carron Wharf by a forged order, particulars of which I will give you by-and-by"—Thompson said "It must be a mistake"—Barnett said "I don't know what you mean"—I then took them to the Old Jewry and gave them to Sergeant Child—I heard what Child said just now; it was correct—on 29th November I was conveying Thompson from Bridewell Police-station to the Mansion House Justice Room in a cab—he said "I hope you won't put me along with Barnett again, for what Barnett says is very averse to my defence"—I said "When I get to the Mansion House I shall have no further control over you"—he said "I did not get very much out of the blood albumen"—I said "You are not charged with obtaining it in the first place from Scotland, but you are charged with obtaining it from the Carron Wharf Company by a forged order"—he said "I did not forge the order. Barnett took it away and got it signed, and I endorsed the back of it. "

Cross-examined by MR. WILLIAMS. I was not called as a witness at the Mansion House—I have never given evidence in a Court as to this conversation before to-day—nobody was present when it took place except myself and the prisoner—I did not write it down; I am not in the habit

of writing conversations or prisoners' statements down—I keep a pocket-book to make entries and carry papers in—I have been 16 years in the force.

Cross-examined by MR. FULTON. I was present when Barnett made the statement which Child has detailed—Thompson made no remark upon it—Barnett was not present when Thompson made his statement in the cab—until to-day he has never heard it—he was served with a notice that it was going to be produced.

By the JURY. I reported Thompson's statement to Child, and to Messrs. Freshfield's clerk.

WILLIAM BARKER (Re-examined). This is the promissory note, and the other document signed by Thompson in my presence—the promissory note is: "One month after date we promise to pay Graham, Wilsea, and Co. or order the sum of 45l., for value received; signed Thompson and Co."—I have not received that money—I paid it (The other document was read consigning the four casks of blood albumen to Graham, Wilsea, and Co. for them to sell at once, charging the usual commission)—there was no arrangement with regard to Thompson selling—the rate of interest for the promissory note was 10 per cent.

Cross-examined by MR. WILLIAMS. I have heard this morning, that the action I brought against the Carron Company has been settled.

FREDERICK JOHN SMALE (Re-examined by MR. FULTON.) The three casks of sugar of lead were standing at the wharf in the name of MacEwan, Anderson, and Co.—I can't say if they were Thompson's—Barnett came to sample them with a sampling order signed by MacEwan, Anderson, and Company, and we allowed him to sample them.

CHARLES SMITH . I am cashier at the National Provincial Bank of England—my occupation has been examining handwriting for the last 10 years—the "W. M. Thompson" on the sampling order "C" and the 5l. note, and the endorsement on this delivery order, are in the same handwriting to the best of my belief—I believe the endorsement on the back of "B" to be in the same handwriting as the endorsement on the bank note—there is a similarity between the endorsement on the Graham, Wilsea, and Co. and that of the note.

Cross-examined by MR. WILLIAMS. I believe myself to be an expert in handwriting—the "Co." of "William Thompson and Co." at the back of "B," the "Co." of the promissory note, the "Co." upon the agreement, and the "Co." in "Graham, Wilsea, and Co." and the "Co." on the alleged forgery, are all written by the same hand—I find in the agreement, the bill of exchange, and slightly on the back of the delivery order that the bottom of the "C" in "Thompson and Co." is carried up and drawn through the "C" to the left of the letter—I do not find the same way of carrying it through on the alleged forgery, Graham, Wilsea, and Co.—the "0" in the alleged forgery has a dash following it—I do not find that in any of the others.

ALFRED HENRY SHEPHERD . I reside and carry on business at Imperial Buildings, Ludgate Hill—in the early part of this year I made the acquaintance of Thompson—I had an office to let, and he came to me with respect to them—an arrangement for him to take the office was entered into, and in my presence he signed this agreement dated 28th March—I subsequently received some letters from him, which I have handed over to Mr. Dawes—I have seen him since—I have had no experience in comparing handwritings.

ROBERT KIRKWOOD SINCLAIR . I am a clerk at the Machinery and Hardware Company, Queen Victoria Street—Thompson called a day or two before this agreement was made, on 19th June, to inquire about an office which we had to let—he arranged to take an office; this is the agreement for it; he signed it in my presence; I attested it.

WILLIAM CORRICK (Re examined by the Jury). I knew Barnett 10 years ago when he was a clerk in Mincing Lane—it was a fair price to give for the article.

The prisoners received good character.

THOMPSON— GUILTY .— Eighteen Months' Hard Labour.

BARNETT— GUILTY of uttering .— Fifteen Months' Hard Labour.

11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-145
VerdictGuilty > unknown; Guilty > lesser offence
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude; Imprisonment > penal servitude; Imprisonment > hard labour

Related Material

145. JOHN LEARY (21), ALFRED THOMAS (21), and LAURA MYERS (33) , Feloniously breaking and entering the warehouse of John Dedrich Weister on 16th November, and stealing 37 bags, three umbrellas, and other goods, his property. (See page 224.)

MR. HORACE AVORY Prosecuted; MR. BLACKWELL defended Myers.

JOSEPH HOFFMAN . I am manager to Mr. Dedrich Weister, a warehouseman, of 89, Bartholomew Close—on Thursday evening, 16th November, I closed the office and shop on the ground-floor about 6.30—next morning, on going there, I found the police in charge, and that the place had been broken into—there were marks of some instruments on the doors, which the detectives afterwards compared—on going into the warehouse I missed among other things 37 new sealskin bags, three coats, and three umbrellas, of the value altogether of about 50l.—I have since seen 33 of the bags and identified them; they are here—I have seen also one of the umbrellas produced.

THOMAS CRANSTON HENDERSON . I assist Mr. Humberstone, a pawnbroker, at 17, High Street, Homerton—on 23rd November this new sealskin bag (produced) was pledged with us by Leary for 10s., in the name, of Henry Simmons, 15, Pratt's Road—on 28th November he came in again, and offered a diamond pin and ring—I sent some one for a constable, who came and took him into custody.

WILLIAM THOMPSON . I am manager to Mr. Walker, pawnbroker, 440, Hackney Road—this sealskin bag (produced) was brought to our shop on 23rd November by Myers—she asked 14s. on it—I asked her, "What did you give for it?"—she said, "It was a present to me"—I examined the bag and saw some marks on it, which led me to believe it was stolen—I had had information about the robbery—I sent for a constable; she was not aware of it, I kept her waiting—she hurriedly left the shop, leaving the bag in my possession on the back of the counter—I went after her and said, "Where are you going?"—she said, "I was going to meet my friend"—I said, "What friend?"—she said, "An old friend a short distance down the street, I must have missed her," and she hurriedly turned round and came to the corner of the street which she was going down—I said, "Before you leave you must give me your name and address"—she gave me the name of Mary Buckley, 16, North Street, Whitechapel—I gave information at the police-station—she never came back for the bag, nor did any one till Mr. Hoffman came.

Cross-examined by MR. BLACKWELL. I had not told her I had sent for a policeman—I did not tell her when I asked for her name and address that I had any suspicion about it.

Re-examined. I went to the end of the shop to send somebody for the constable.

JOSEPH HEALY . I assist Messrs. Fish and Son, pawnbrokers, 317, Mare Street, Hackney—this sealskin bag was pledged with us on 23rd November for 14s. by Myers in the name of Ann Kelly, 16, Overbury Street, Homerton.

Cross-examined by MR. BLACKWELL. I said before the Magistrate to the best of my belief it was Myers, I feel convinced of it now; she was very differently dressed when she came into the shop, she had a fur jacket and a bonnet with a veil down—she has a peculiar action of putting her hand up to her mouth which I have observed since, and I recollect her voice and manner of speaking—I asked her what she required on the bag—she said 15s.—I offered her 12s., and she haggled over the price and said, "Well, make it 14s. "—she seemed very respectable—I asked her if it was her own property—she said "Yes"—I said, "Where did you buy it?"—she said, "At the West End"—the shop was full of customers, but I had time for this conversation while the boy was writing the tickets out.

Re-examined. I believe she is the woman—she had her veil down—there is a certain doubt, but I feel convinced about it—I said at the Mansion House she was the woman to the best of my belief, and when I heard her speak my belief was strengthened.

THOMAS SANDERS . Iam a pawnbroker, at 191, Mare Street, Hackney—this sealskin bag was pawned with me on 23rd November, for 10s., by a young woman who is not here—I should know her if I saw her—she was about 21, respectably dressed, and had a very laughing face—a woman whom I saw in Court in custody with the prisoners, and who was afterwards discharged, bore a strong resemblance to her—her name was Kate Buckley.

EDWARD WILLIAM HUMBERSTONE . I am a pawnbroker, at 17, High Street, Homerton—on 17th November Leary came to my shop about 10 o'clock in the morning, and offered a ring and pin in pledge—my attention was drawn by Henderson, my assistant, in consequence of which I sent for a constable—my foreman asked him his name in my presence—he said William Myers, 17A, Overbury Street—the constable came, I gave him into custody, and charged him with pledging a bag knowing it to be stolen—he said "It was not me, I did not know it was stolen"—about three hours afterwards Myers and another woman, Ince, who was taken to the Mansion House and discharged, came into the shop and offered a small snake ring with diamond eyes—Myers saw the ring and pin on my back counter, and said "Oh, my brother has been in; what did you lend him on those? my brother has been here and not returned "—I sent for a constable, who took them both away in custody—when she offered the ring she said "It is mine"—I said "I did not say it wasn't. "

Cross-examined by MR. BLACKWELL. When she made the statement about her brother I was standing behind the door of my back parlour, which is below the shop about five steps—I could see her; she could not see me—there was no partition between us—there are half a dozen partitions in the shop, but none to obstruct my view.

JOHN COOPER (Policeman N 437). I was called about 11 o'clock on 28th November by Mr. Humberstone, who gave Leary in custody—he said "Leary was in here pawning a sealskin bag on the 23rd"—Leary said

he knew nothing of any bag whatever—I said "You will have to go to the station with me"—I then took him to Hackney Station, and afterwards to Snow Hill, where the charge of being concerned with others in breaking and entering the warehouse in the City was read over to him—he did not say anything.

Cross-examined by Leary. You said nothing about the bags in the presence of Mr. Humberstone and his assistant.

FREDERICK WADE (City Detective). On the afternoon of 28th November I went to the Hackney Police-station, where I found Leary in custody—I asked him for his address—he said 17A, Overbury Street, Clapton Park—I went there with Chapman and Fletcher, and found it was a marine store dealer's—Thomas was in the shop behind the counter; I asked him if Leary lived in the place—he said "Yes, upstairs"—I said I wanted to see his room—he said "Wait till Mrs. Myers comes back"—I waited some time, Mrs. Myers did not come back, and I went with Thomas upstairs—he pointed out a room on the second floor to me, the back room I think—I found nothing there—1 then went to the front room on the first floor, which Thomas said was Mrs. Myers's room—I searched it, and in the chest of drawers I found this sealskin bag (produced)—I went down to the shop and searched that—I found a box underneath some rags—I asked Thomas what was in the box—he said "Rags"—I opened the box and found 28 of these sealskin bags—I said "How do you account for these being in your possession?"—he said "I can't account for them"—I found a number of other things in the shop, which I took away; among them were 89 yards of cloth—I took Thomas into custody and handed him over to another detective, and took possession of the shop.

Cross-examined by Thomas. I asked you what was in the box—I do not think I said so at the police-court.

Cross-examined by MR. BLACKWELL. I did not know who were the owners of the respective rooms except from the statements made by Thomas—from all I knew the room, Mrs. Myers's may have been the top room in the house, and in that room I found nothing.

WILLIAM WEIGHT (Detective Constable). On the morning of 17th December I went to the warehouse at 89, Bartholomew Close—I saw marks of two instruments on the door; the lock was forced, and on the doorpost were twenty or thirty marks of some rough instrument—on 29th November I went to 17A, Overbury Street—Fletcher, Mackenzie, Hunt, and Wade were there at the time—I saw Fletcher find this jemmy (produced) on the sideboard near the fireplace—Hunt found this file (produced) I afterwards compared these instruments with the marks on the door—the jemmy is not a straight edge; if it is inserted one way it will make a different mark one side to the other—it corresponded with some of the marks, and on one edge is some brass from the lock—the file has one flat and one oval side—on the doorpost the flat side fitted exactly, and on the door the oval side—there were also prints of the cut file in the plate—I was not at the police-court when the prisoners were together in the dock.

BAXTER HUNT (City Detective). On 29th November I was engaged with others in searching this house—I found this file on a table in the second-floor front room underneath some old tools—I left it there; Wright brought it away—I also found this umbrella (produced) in the

kitchen on the ground floor in the corner—I was present at the station on the 28th when the prisoners were all there—Mrs. Myers made no statement in my presence—the umbrella has been identified.

Cross-examined by Thomas. If I went into a marine store dealer's I should expect to find tools of that kind—I did not see any old iron in the back yard.

Re-examined. I did not bring this file from the back yard.

WILLIAM WRIGHT (Re-examined). There is another file, a hard, rusty one, which we found in the back yard—this has been softened.

ROBERT MACKENZIE (Detective Sergeant). On the afternoon of 28th November I was called to Humberstone'S shop, where I found Myers and Ince—Mr. Humberstone gave them in custody and handed me a diamond ring—I told them I should take them into custody for being concerned with a man in custody with breaking into a warehouse in the City and stealing a large quantity of sealskin bags and other articles on the 16th—Myers said she knew nothing about it—I took them to Hackney Police-station—Myers gave an address at 15, Overbury Street, and afterwards said "17A, Overbury Street"—I went there and found it in the possession of Wade, Chapman, and Fletcher—I assisted in removing a large quantity of stolen property to the police-station at Hackney—I told Myers I had found a large quantity of bags and other articles in her house—she made no reply—I then took her and Ince to the Snow Hill Police-station, where the other two prisoners were—Hoffman came and identified the bags in the presence of the four prisoners as his property, or the property of his employer—the male prisoners said both together "We done the job ourselves; the woman had nothing to do with it"—the charge was afterwards read over to them, and they made no reply.

Cross-examined by Leary. My statement of what you and Thomas said is in my deposition.

Cross-examined by Thomas. You said "We done the job"—I stopped you and cautioned you, and Leary said "We done the job; the woman had nothing to do with it. "

Cross-examined by MR. BLACKWELL. When I came back from 17A, Overbury Street I told Myers I had found a large quantity of bags and other property at her house—I believed it to be her house because the children were there, and she sent a telegram for her mother to come and take charge of the children, and we have since handed the house and everything over to her mother—I did not ask permission of the men before doing so—the mother identified all the property as her daughter's—they have only had this place about a month—the only permission Myers gave us to hand everything over to her mother was the telegram.

GEORGE CHAPMAN (Detective N). I was at Hackney Police-station when Myers was in custody—she asked me to send a message to her mother—I asked her what she wanted to say, and I wrote it down—it was to 2, Little Somerset Street, Whitechapel, to come and take charge of the house and children, 17A, Overbury Street, as she was locked up—I gave that to the inspector and he sent the telegram off.

Cross-examined by MR. BLACKWELL. I gave the inspector exactly what she said—I can't say if he sent it off exactly as I gave it to him—I am certain she said to take charge of the house and children.

THOMAS FRENCH . I am the landlord of 17A, Overbury Street—it was

taken in the beginning of November last. I think on the 4th—the three prisoners came together to my house, the Globe public-house—they took the house quarterly, at 28l. a year, in the name of Myers—I think Thomas gave me that name—they were all speaking together—10s. deposit was paid; a receipt was given—my clerk collected the rent at the house.

Cross-examined by MR. BLACKWELL. I thought one of the men was Mr. Myers—I did not think I was letting the house to the woman.

Leary, in his defence, stated that he had lodged with Thomas for two months, when he told him lie was going to take a shop with Mrs. Myers; that they signed the agreement; and that on that day Thomas told him he had lent a man 5l. on a lot of goods, and that Mrs. Myers had gone, to, buy some clothes for the window, and I took one of the bags and pawned it for 10s.; and that some time afterwards Mrs. Myers had given him the ring and pin to pawn.

Thomas stated that he lent 5l. on the goods, and that ha gave Mrs. Myers the bag which was found in her drawers.


LEARY**— Six Years' Penal Servitude.

THOMAS**— Seven Years' Penal Servitude.

MYERS— GUILTY of Receiving .— Twelve Months' Hard Labour.

OLD COURT.—Saturday, December 16th, 1882.

Before Mr. Justice Stephen

11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-146
VerdictNot Guilty > non compos mentis
SentenceImprisonment > insanity

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146. JOHN NORRIS SAUNDERS (53) , Maliciously sending to the Right Honourable William Ewart Gladstone, a letter threatening to murder him.


EDWARD WALTER HAMILTON . I am private secretary to Mr. Gladstone and open his private letters—this letter came by post, and I opened it at Downing Street, read it, and sent it across to Scotland Yard—I cannot find the envelope. (Read: "16th November. Sir,—On every occasion whenever your great abilities and high principles have been questioned, I have endeavoured to regard your formal opinions and policy of action in the most favourable light; but I have been deceived in respect to your conduct, and I have come to the conclusion that you must die.—J. N. Saunders, l, Tindall's Road, Gray's Inn Road. ")

ANDREW LANSDOWN (Police Inspector, Scotland Yard). On 18th November I went with Sergeant Frost to Tindall's Buildings, Gray's Inn Road, and saw the prisoner coming out of No. 11, a common lodging-house—I had the letter with me and asked him whether he wrote it to Mr. Gladstone—he said "Yes, I wrote that letter to Mr. Gladstone, and I did so for the purpose of bringing my case before the public"—I said that I was a police inspector, and should take him in custody for sending a letter to Mr. Gladstone threatening to murder him—he said "No, not murder"—on the way to the station he said "I was in the Land Transport Corps in the Crimea. I was afterwards in the Royal Artillery and servant to Colonel Brackenbury. I deserted and was apprehended, tried by court martial, and acquitted, the evidence of identity not being sufficient. I then went to live with Mrs. Pinkerton, the keeper of several common lodging-houses. I had 12 months' imprisonment for assaulting, her, which I underwent in Coldbath Fields Prison. I also

had 12 months' imprisonment for threatening the same person, which I underwent in Holloway Prison. I have been examined by Dr. Gibson, the surgeon of Newgate, who certified that I was a dangerous lunatic. Since 1867 I have been in several lunatic asylums. I was at the asylum at Stone, that is near Dartford, and also at the asylum at Darenth, where I escaped and was recaptured. I was also in the City of London Asylum at Bow. I have been three times in America; twice I had my passage paid, and once I worked my passage"—I searched him at the station, but only found this clasp knife.

JOHN ROWLAND GIBSON . I was for nearly 27 years surgeon of Newgate, and have had long experience in examining insane persons—the prisoner was in this gaol in 1867, and he was there before that, but I have no recollection of it—I saw him last Tuesday and Friday (yesterday) week, and came to the conclusion that he is of unsound mind; and I believe that is the condition of mind which has existed since I first became acquainted with him—I believe he is dangerous when at large.

By the COURT. It is a very common thing for lunatics to threaten persons—I think his lunacy is of such a nature as to prevent him from appreciating the moral character and consequences of conduct of this kind as a sane man would.

NOT GUILTY on the ground of insanity .— To be detained during Her Majesty's pleasure.

11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-147
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude; Miscellaneous

Related Material

147. IVAN NOVITSKY (46), Stealing divers valuable securities to the value of 15,000l. of Nicolas Savitch.



NICOLAS SAVITCH (Interpreted). I am 72 years of age—I am unable to speak English—I am a Russian, formerly living at Odessa—I was a magistrate there—I had a brother named Ivan Savitch; he died in Italy—I was entitled under his will to a certain number of bonds—on 22nd August I went to my solicitor's office in Cornhill with the prisoner—I knew him some time after my arrival in London, one or two months before I went to the solicitor's—he used to interpret for me, I took him for that purpose—I also went to the bank—Mr. Heriot and I were the executors under my brother's will—the bonds were delivered over to me, and I signed a receipt for them; they were Russian and Italian bonds—this (produced) is the particulars of them—I had a bag with me, and they were put into it; the prisoner assisted me in putting them in—I consulted him as to the bank where I should deposit them, which I was not quite decided upon—I wanted to put them in safe deposit—he said "God preserve you from putting them into MESSRS. Hambro's hands, because who is to know what might happen with Hambro's in the course of a few years?"—after having some luncheon we went to 34, York Place, where I was lodging—I there wanted to cut the coupons off, but as there were no scissors in the place the prisoner proposed to me to go to his place, and I went to 16, Blandford Street—we there cut off the coupons from the bonds—I think it was 3 o'clock when we commenced cutting off the coupons, to between 5 and 6—after that we dined and played at chess—at 6 o'clock I went to visit Mdlle. Glasenoff—I had the bag with me—that was the lady who had money left under the will—the prisoner accompanied me as a sort of body-guard, not

wishing to go with such valuable property upon me—I did not find Mdlle. Glasenoff at home, and we went back to Blandford Street, and there played chess till 10—I had the bag and the bonds with me—I then put on my hat, and prepared to go away—I went from the drawing-room towards a small room where my bag was deposited on the table, when the prisoner came behind me and placed himself in front of me, at or near the table where the bag was; I lifted up my hand to take the bag up, and he took hold of me by the throat, gave me a kick, and threw me down, and then began to strangle me by squeezing my throat—I do not know what struggles I made, but I cried out, and probably when he heard steps on the staircase he let go of me, took up the bag, and ran away—my hat was knocked off although there was no struggle, because it was only the affair of a moment—I don't know whether he had his hat on or where it was—I immediately got up and went down after him, and just caught sight of him going out of the door—he had no hat on then—I called out—I saw a policeman afterwards near Madame Tussaud's, but could not speak to him—I afterwards found a man at my lodging who could speak for me—I then went to the police-station and gave information—the bonds are payable to bearer—the total value is about 15,100l.—I next saw the prisoner in custody at the police-court.

Cross-examined. I made the acquaintance of the prisoner as I was looking out for an interpreter, and passing along Blandford Street I saw an inscription in the Russian and English languages, "Russian office," but I did not find him at home then—I had before that been to MESSRS. Hambro's office and seen Mr. Heriot; he spoke to me in French—I don't know that there are persons there who speak many foreign languages—three days after passing Blandford Street I saw the prisoner, who said he had just returned from Paris—after he had accompanied me as interpreter about 8 or 10 days I spoke to him about this matter—I had received about 1,700l. from Messrs. Hambro's office before receiving these bonds, in various foreign securities, no English—I don't think the prisoner was with me when I received them—I believe Mr. Heriot gave them to me at the Bank of England, and I took them home to York Place—when I went to the Bank of England on the 22nd with Mr. Heriot the prisoner did not carry the bag, I carried it—the prisoner was present when the bonds were handed over to me; they were not handed to the prisoner—Mr. Heriot counted them; the prisoner did not, nor take them into his hand—after we left The Bell we went to Mr. Parker's office, and the bonds were divided and afterwards counted—I being rather clumsy at counting, and the prisoner being very clever at it, he commenced to count them—I put them in a bag, and he assisted me—I carried the bag—I gave this medal to the prisoner; it is to C. Hertzen on the death of his father—Hertzen was a celebrated writer in Russia on the education of the peasants—his paper is called La Cloche (The Bell)—I found this medal among the old papers belonging to my father—I was a Justice of the Peace in Odessa for three years, receiving 4,500 roubles salary—gentlemen are only elected to that office for three years—the right of reappointment exists, but I resigned because it was too much fatigue for me—I do not know that the circulation of this medal is prohibited in Russia—I have not belonged to any society of any kind in Russia—there is no secret society in Odessa to my knowledge—my brother Ivan was never a member of a society in Odessa, you must

not throw dirt upon a dead person—I never had any conversation with my brother about any disposition by him of his property, except that in the two wills—I promised to pay the prisoner handsomely for his services according to the Russian habit, but I never promised to hand him over half the bonds, less 10 per cent., or any portion of them, nor had I given him any instructions whatever as to what he was to do with any portion or the whole of them—I have not been to the Russian Ambassador since these proceedings commenced—I went to the Consul, and on the first occasion I spoke to him about the robber; on the second I went to pay the expenses of publishing a description of the man, which came to about 5l.—I only went twice—I had no scissors in Mr. Parker's office, and the prisoner proposed to me to go to his house—there were no coupons to cut off the 1,700l. bonds, they were detached—we had wine at dinner at Novitsky's house, but no coffee—I said that violence was used to me—I did not correct my deposition when it was read over to me, and say that no violence was used—I corrected the sum and something else, but not about the violence.

Re-examined. Some of the 1,700l. I received were lottery bond 3, and the others were from different countries—I received them from Mr. Heriot.

JOHN BOLTON . I am porter at 16, Blandford Square—the prisoner lodged in the same house—on 22nd August, about 9.30 p.m., I was standing on the doorstep, and the prisoner came down and asked if there was a letter for him—I said "No, Sir"—he came down a second time and asked; I said "No; but the postman is over the way—he came down a third time, and asked me not to lock the door as he had a friend there who wanted to be let out, and consequently I did not lock the door—he lived on the first floor—I went to my room on the third floor, and heard a scuffling about 9.50 p.m.; I went down, and when I was three parts of the way down the drawing-room stairs the prosecutor had his arm across so that I could not get past him, and I heard the inner door and the outer door slam—the prosecutor went like this to his throat and said "15,000l. sterling"—I thought there had been a little dispute at the game or else I should have followed—I looked out but could not see him—the prosecutor went out up to Madame Tussaud's—I have lived there nine years—the prisoner never came back.

Croee-examined, I have charge of the door at night—I have seen Mr. Savage there about a dozen times with the prisoner, and have seen them playing at chess together—I think the prisoner has lodged there since the beginning of July.

JOSEPH ALLEN . I am a cabman, of 4, North Street, Grove Road—on 22nd August, about 10 p.m., I was standing with my cab at George Street, near Baker Street, and a gentleman without a hat came up and wanted to engage my cab—I told him I was engaged—I did not see him get into another cab.

ROBERT NICHOLAS DILLON . I am a cab driver of 4, Roman Terrace, Harrow Road—on 22nd October, at a few minutes to 10 o'clock, the prisoner hailed my cab in Baker Street, got in, and told me to drive to Charing Cross—I drove him to the corner of Villiers Street—he had no hat, he told me he had lost it; and I told him he might be able to get one in the railway station—he carried a bag in his left hand.

NATHANIEL JOSEPH FERRATI . I am the principal of the Security Office, Bank of England—on 22nd August I had in my custody a number of

Italian and Russian bonds, which I handed to Mr. Heriot that day, and he and the prosecutor signed this receipt for them—I have a list showing the numbers and descriptions of them.

Cross-examined. The prisoner was standing at the desk when the receipt was signed, and was apparently watching everything which was done.

ROBERT HERIOT . I am one of the firm of C. J. Hambro and Son, of 70, Old Broad Street—I knew Mr. Ivan Savitch, the prosecutor's brother—I am one of the executors under his will, and his brother is the other—the will was proved on 18th August at 22,700l. I think—on 22nd August I went to the Bank of England and received the bonds, signed a receipt for them, and they were taken to the solicitor's office—I handed over to the lady what belonged to her, and the prosecutor took possession of the rest under his brother's will, he having previously received some 1,700l. worth of bonds—they had been deposited in a box in the Bank of England, but the bank had no knowledge of the contents—the box was broken open, and I gave them over to the prosecutor on, I think, the 18th of August—I do not think that was before the probate, but it was before the other bonds.

Cross-examined. To the best of my memory the prisoner was present when I gave them to the prosecutor—we received them at the Bank of England, took them to Mr. Parker's office, and gave Mdlle. de Glasenoff what she was entitled to, 8,600l. nominal—she only took five under the will, the actual value was about 7,000l.—Mr. Nicholas took what he was entitled to, and gave me an order to deliver to her the extra bonds and I did go—I took Mr. Savitch's receipt for them, and wished him to count them—he did not do so, but the prisoner did; and placed them in a black bag—I think it was mainly the prisoner who placed them in the bag, and the impression on my mind is that the prisoner took up the bag and went away—when he was counting the bonds he appeared to be checking the amounts, for which purpose he must look at each bond, and he did his work properly as far as I could see—Mr. Savitch is acquainted with two or three languages—almost every one in my office speaks many languages—our relations are very large with foreign countries—there was no necessity for an interpreter in my office between Mr. Savitch and any one there—I do not speak Russian, nor is it spoken in my office—the general conversation is in French—I am not executor under the torn document—I know of no suggestion about a third will—I never heard of any other except the torn document—I think I first saw Nicholas in June, and after he had made the prisoner's acquaintance he generally came with him to the office.

By the COURT. I think I have heard him talk in Russian—Mr. Savitch spoke French quite well enough to make himself understood, and, considering his age, I think he spoke it like a man to whom it came very easily.

Re-examined. Our clerks are employed in the office all day—we do not allow them to go out to act as interpreters—a larger sum was left to the lady under the torn will than under the former will—Mr. Savitch gave up to her more than was mentioned in the first will—I did not interfere between the parties.

NICOLAS SAVITCH (Re-examined). I gave up to the lady a larger sum than was proved under the will; I paid the debt of my brother, and also

refunded her the money she expended for my brother's funeral expenses; I also gave her the sum which by the other will my brother intended to give her.

MORRIS MOSER . I am an Inspector of the Criminal Investigation Department, Scotland Yard—in consequence of information I received I went to Vienna and made inquiries, but could not find the prisoner—I received information that he was in prison in Hamburg, and that he had deposited some of the bonds in Berlin and Paris—I went to Berlin and found some bonds in the hands of the police; they refused to give them up without the prisoner's authority—I telegraphed to Hamburg and got a document back signed by the prisoner, which I produced at the police-court, and he acknowledged it to bear his signature—it has been translated by Sergeant Ward. (This was a consent signed by the prisoner to hand over to the witness the moneys and securities deposited by him at Berlin, and other securities found in his portmanteau.) At Berlin the police would not give me the bonds—I went back to Hamburg, and on 2nd October I went with Inspector King to Berlin, and the police then handed me the bonds to the value of 9,100l.—on 22nd November I received another parcel by post from the Hamburg police containing bonds to the value of 2,200l.—I brought them to this country and they are in my hands now—they correspond with Mr. Hambro's list on the printed bills—I got this pocket-book from the German officer, Inspector Kempe, who brought the prisoner over—when the prisoner was charged he was asked if the pocket-book was his, and he said "Yes"—I find in it entered the numbers of all the bonds that were taken; they exactly correspond with the printed list—at Hamburg the prisoner said he had about 560l. at the London and Westminster Bank and the National Provincial—a diamond ring, two solitaires, and a gold watch were handed over to the prisoner's solicitor by the Magistrate's direction.

Cross-examined. I first went to Vienna, then to Salzburg, Prague, and then back to Vienna; I had great difficulty in finding the prisoner because he was travelling in five names—I traced him to about a dozen places on the continent—when I first saw him he told me that he would not permit the bonds to be given up to the prosecutor—he did not say that he had a right to retain them for himself or other persons—I think I asked him where he went after leaving London, and I think he said to Bristol—I believe he went to Ireland—he did not tell me so—I found that his hat was from Dublin, and a razor strop or something—I was twice at Hamburg with him—I did not hear him say he took the bonds because he had a right to take them—there was no conversation in my presence as to their being a division of the bonds between the prisoner and Mr. Savitch—I believe the prisoner had a deposit account of 560l. at the London and Westminster and the London and Provincial, but he had drawn that out on 8th August.

GEORGE KING (Police Inspector D). On 21st November I received the prisoner in custody at the ship Portia, at Wapping, from the German police—I took him to the station—the warrant was read over to him—he made no answer—I then told him ho would also be charged with violently assaulting Mr. Savitch—he made no answer to that.

GUILTY . Five Years' Penal Servitude, and to pay the taxed costs of the prosecution.

11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-148
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceNo Punishment > sentence respited

Related Material

148. SAMUEL BROWN (52) , Feloniously attempting to discharge a loaded pistol against William Sutton, with intent to murder. Second Count, to do grievous bodily harm.

MESSRS. POLAND and DAY Prosecuted.

GEORGE WILLIAM SUTTON . I live at 3, East Chapel Street, May Fair, and am a bootmaker—I have known the prisoner many years—he lodged at my house up to March—he owed some rent, and I was obliged to eject him—I served him with a writ, and the Sheriff was put in motion—about a month or so after he left my house he came into my shop—he asked what I had done with his things, meaning the things the Sheriff's officer had seized—I referred him to my solicitor, Mr. Johnson, of Lombard Street—he said it was not my solicitor he wanted, it was me, and me he would have—I said he would have to have me through the means of my solicitor, and I said he could not do that much, and I snapped my fingers at him—I did not see him again till the night of 23rd November, that would be about four months after—it was about 7.30 p.m.—he came in by the private entrance, but I first saw him in the shop—I said "Hallo, what's the matter? what do you want?"—he said he wanted some conversation with me—I said he could say what he liked, I would answer him—he said he wanted some private conversation with me—I told him to go into my little office at the back of the shop, and I would follow him—I had rather a suspicion of him and told him to go in first—at that moment my nephew, George Collins, came in at the back of him, and saw something out of his pocket—he seized his hand, and I at the same time seized his arm—Collins took something from him and said it was a revolver, and I then saw it—I had not seen the prisoner do anything with it—he then began to fumble in the breast of his coat for something else—I directly closed on him, seizing him by the shoulders, and twisted him round into my office, and thrust him into a corner at the farther end, and held him there till a constable came, and I gave him into custody—I said I believed he had got some other weapons about him—I did not see the constable take it from him—he was taken away in custody—I had ejected him by means of a Magistrate's order—he had fastened his door—he had never gone out of the house for three weeks, because he knew that we should want to keep him out—he still owes me about 50l.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. When you first called I was not afraid that you were going to shoot me—I heard that you carried firearms—you said at the police-station that you were in the habit of carrying these arms for years.

GEORGE JABEZ COLLINS . I am the nephew of the last witness—on the night of 24th November I saw the prisoner inside the door, and heard Mr. Sutton say "What do you want?" he said "I want some conversation with you"—Mr. Sutton asked him to go into the other room—I saw a revolver in his hand, he had got it out of his poket like that (describing)—I seized hold of him and took it away from him, and my uncle held him while I went and fetched a policeman, and the prisoner was taken into custody—I went to the station and gave the revolver to the inspector; it was loaded—I gave it up in the same state as I took it from the prisoner—I wrenched it out of his hand, it did not fall out.

Prisoner. I never took it out of my pocket; my hand was upon it in my pocket; they threw me on my back and took it away.

Witness. That is not true.

FRANK SPIERS (Policeman C 271). Collins fetched me, and the prisoner was given into my custody—I told him I should take him into custody—he said "All right"—Mr. Sutton said he believed he had something else upon him—I noticed him put his hand behind him; I seized his hand and took from him this dagger—on the way to the station he said Mr. Sutton had done him a very nasty turn some time ago, and he did not forget it.

GEORGE ROBINSON (Police Inspector C). On Thursday evening, 23rd November, at 8 o'clock, the prisoner was brought to the station—Collins handed me this revolver; it is a Belgian make—it was loaded in six chambers—I read the charge over to the prisoner—he said "I did not say anything"—I withdrew the charges and now produce them; they are ball-cartridges, pin fire, Eley's small cartridges, No. 6—it is a good revolver—the ramrod was out when it was brought to me.

The Prisoner's Statement before the Magistrate. "I had some things at the Duke of Westminster, and Mr. Sutton took them away without notice; he snapped his fingers at me and said he did not care for me. "

Prisoner's Defence. I have carried the revolver for some years. I did not take it out expressly that night; I don't think I have ever gone out without it. The dagger is a portion of a walking-stick; I broke the stick, and I took it out with the idea of having a new stick made to it; that was the reason I had it with me. It was one I bought in France, a little light walking-stick. I did not take the revolver out of my pocket at all, some of them pulled it out and said it was on cock. That was impossible, because it is made on the principle that it won't remain so.

MR. JUSTICE STEPHEN entertained considerable doubt whether the evidence in this case would support the indictment, which was framed under 15th sec. of 24 and 25 c. 100. The point turned upon what was an attempt; the drawing of the trigger of a pistol would of course be an attempt, but that was not done in this case. Various illustrations of what constituted an attempt had been given, but nothing very definite, and the direction he should give was this: if the Jury thought that the prisoner drew the revolver from his pocket with intent to murder the prosecutor, and that he was only prevented from going on to shoot him by having the revolver taken away from him, they ought to convict him under this indictment, but he would reserve the question for the Court for the Consideration of Crown Cases Reserved.

GUILTY .— Judgment reserved.


Before Robert Malcolm Kerr, Esq.

11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-150
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty; Not Guilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

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150. HENRY GEORGE (16) and JOSEPH HENRY JORDAN (21) , Stealing 1 1/2 lb. of ham, the property of Edward Russell, to which GEORGE PLEADED GUILTY .

MR. RAYMOND Prosecuted.

EDWARD RUSSELL . I am a general dealer, of 34, Windmill Lane, Stratford—a little before 8 p.m. on 21st November I saw Jordan in my shop handing something round the corner of the door to his mate, and directly he was outside I missed some ham off of the counter—they walked

away down the street—George was afterwards brought back to me by my wife, who followed him—he said "I did not take it, my mate took it"—on 24th November I recognised Jordan outside my shop—I called him in, and kept him till a policeman came—he said "I took it; I had nothing to eat for four days"—I gave him in custody.

Cross-examined by Jordan. I did not say "I believe you are the lad who had 1 1/2 lb. of ham out of my shop the other night—I did not say I had one lad locked up; or that if you told me the truth I would not look you up.

EDWARD MOORE . I live at 12, William Street, Angel Lane, Stratford—I was in Windmill Lane on the evening of 21st November, and saw Jordan inside the prosecutor's shop and George outside—I walked on the other side and watched them—I saw Jordan put his hand over the counter—I walked across the road, and told the old lady, who said she would run after them—she fetched George back, and the old gentleman took him from his wife, and he struggled and got away from him—I ran and caught him.

JOHN SCOTT (Policeman KR 34). I am stationed at West Ham—I was called to Mr. Russell's shop on 21st November at 8 o'clock, and Jordan was given into my custody.

JOHN WILLIAM DUNHAM (Policeman K 62). I was called to the prosecutor's shop on 24th November about 12.30—he gave Jordan into my custody for stealing, and being concerned with George—he said "My God! I know nothing whatever about it"—I took him to the station.

Witness for the Defence.

HENRY GEORGE (The Prisoner). I never saw this lad before in my life till the morning he was handcuffed by the side of me at the House of Detention—the lad who was with me when I stole the ham I have never seen since.

Cross-examined. His name is James Portlock—I do not know where he lives, but somewhere in Stepney—he cuts cane for his mother, who is a basket manufacturer—he is about 17, and is not like the prisoner—he is something after my stamp.

JORDAN— NOT GUILTY . GEORGE also PLEADED GUILTY to a previous conviction.— Two Years' Hard Labour.

Before Mr. Recorder,

11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-151
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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151. RICHARD PEARSON (17) and MARY ANN ROUND (17) , Stealing a watch, the property of Ernest Edward Walden. Upon the opening of MR. MORTEN, for the prosecution, the RECORDER considered that there was no case to go to the Jury.


11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-152
VerdictGuilty > unknown; Guilty > with recommendation
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour; Imprisonment > hard labour

Related Material

152. WILLIAM COUNTER (55), GEORGE WATTS (31), WILLIAM MEAD (58), and DAVID WEDDELL (19) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.

MR. LLOYD Prosecuted; MR. KEITH FRITH defended Counter and Watts.

MARY ANN MORSE . My husband is a tobacconist at Leytonstone—on 28th November I served Counter with a half-ounce of tobacco; he put down a half-crown—I said "I don't care for this," and returned it to him—he gave me a good shilling, I gave him the change, and he left—I

then examined a florin which I had received just before, and found it was bad—this is it—I gave it to the detective, and saw him mark it.

KATE WEST . I am assistant to George Ball, a baker, of Leytonstone—on 28th November, about 6.30 p.m., Mead came in for a twopenny loaf—I had not got one, and he took a twopenny cake and gave me a half-crown—I gave him 2s. 4d. change, and he left and joined another man, who was looking through the window—I found the coin was bad, marked it, and gave it to Hall—there were two other half-crowns in the till, but they were very different to this.

WILLIAM TOTTERDALE . I keep an eating-house at Leytonstone—on 28th November, about 6.15 p.m., Counter, Mead, and Weddell came in—Mead said "I owe you 2d., and I have come to pay you; take it out of this half-crown"—he then asked for a cup of coffee and some saveloys, and said "Don't give those two men anything out of that half-crown"—I gave him 2s. 2d. change, and they all three left—I then found the coin was bad, and gave information—I saw the four prisoners together three-quarters of an hour afterwards at the Crown public-house, and saw them taken, and charged them at the station—Mead said in the public-house "You know me and I know you"—I had said nothing to him—this is the coin.

Cross-examined by Mead. You have been in the shop several times—you did a job for me.

GEORGE BLACKS (Detective Officer). On 28th November I received information, went with Allmark to the Crown, looked through the taproom window, and saw the four prisoners in conversation—I watched them five minutes, and they left the taproom and went into the bar—we then went into the bar, pushed them into the taproom, shut the door, and said "We are police-officers, and shall charge you with uttering counterfeit money"—Watts crossed the room and dropped this bag (produced) behind a seat—I picked it up; it contained four packets, two of which contained 12 half-crowns each and two 13 florins each—I caught hold of Watts; we struggled together, and both went to the ground—on getting up I saw Watts put his left hand into his left coat pocket and take something out, which he tried to throw into the fire, but Allmark prevented him—I found in his trousers pocket 4 florins, 2 bad and 2 good, and 26 shillings, 25 sixpences, 2 threepenny pieces, all good, 4s. 11d. in copper, 3 half-ounces of tobacco, a new tooth-brush, and a knife—I searched Counter, and found 1 knife, 11 knife-blades, a punch, and a pair of pliers—I found this tobacco on Watts with the name of Morse on it—after the charge Watts said "If I had any bad money in my pocket you put it in"—Counter said "I don't know anything about it; I was only having a drop of beer with them"—we took them all in charge.

Cross-examined by MR. FRITH. No bad money was found on Counter.

GEORGE ALLMARK (Detective Officer). I was with Blacks; he and Watts had a struggle, and both went on the floor; when they got up Watts took something from his coat pocket and attempted to throw it into the fire, but I laid hold of his hand and took out two packets, one containing 10 bad half-crowns and the other 10 bad florins—I searched Mead, and found a good sixpence, 5 1/2 d. in copper, and a packet of sweets, and on Weddell this new scarf with the ticket on it, 5 good shillings, 2 pence, a packet of sweets, and a box of dice.

Cross-examined by Weddell. I did not pick up the sweets; they were in your pocket.

HENRIETTA ROSE NICE . I am landlady of the Crown, Leytonstone—on 28th November the four prisoners and another man came—Counter I believe had a half-pint of ale and paid with two halfpence—they then called for a pot of ale and put down a half-crown; I put it in the till, and gave 2s. 2d. change—one of them called for another pot of ale, and gave a florin—I put it in the till and gave 1s. 8d. change—one of them came to the bar, bought a biscuit, and put down a half-crown—I gave him 2s. 5d. change—he said "I will take another biscuit," and gave me a penny—the police came, and I went to the till, and found two bad half-crowns and a bad florin—there was one good half-crown in the till, a smooth one, which I had taken from a lady—I heard a scuffle in the taproom—the police took the prisoners and one man escaped—these (produced) are the three coins—I saw them marked.

Cross-examined by MR. FRITH. I saw Counter talking to a greengrocer, and he may have been there before the others came in.

Cross-examined by Mead. I have known you for years, and allowed you to come and sit in front of the fire—you have mended china and glass in the taproom.

JAMES STEPHENS . I am a fishmonger of Buckhurst Hill, Essex—on the evening of 28th November I went into this public-house; Mead came in first and Counter next, who said to the landlady "I owe you twopence, I have come to pay you"—he bought some saveloys—I followed the four prisoners and one who is not here, for three-quarters of an hour with my pony and cart—I pulled up at a public-house on the left side of the road, where Mead, Counter, and Weddell walked up, and the one who is away was behind them—I saw Watts folding or unfolding a piece of white papers—Watts and the one not in custody crossed and went into a toyshop and then crossed back and joined the other two—as soon as they came out I went in and spoke to the proprietor—I went to the station and told a detective where they were.

WILLIAM ROGER (Police Inspector). I read the charge to the prisoners—Mead said "I have nothing to say"—Weddell said "I don't know these men"—Watts said "I did not utter any counterfeit coin or see any uttered"—Counter said "I do not know anything about it Whatever."

JOHN TOWSEY . I keep a sweet shop at Leytonstone—on 21st Feb., about 6 p.m., Mead came in for twopennyworth of sweets and put down a florin—I saw that it was bad before I picked it up—I then put it in the trier, found that it was bad, and returned it to him, and he paid with copper—he went out and joined two men about 60 feet off.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . These coins are all bad—the two half-crowns tendered by Counter to Nice are from the same mould—these papers have had coins wrapped in them, which was passed between each coin, and shows that a great many have been taken out.

Mead, in his defence, stated that he sold two umbrellas for 5s. and received the two half-crowns, but would not have uttered them if he had known they were bad. Weddell's defence was that he was a stranger to the other prisoners and had none of the coins.

COUNTER, WATTS, and MEAD**— GUILTY .— Eighteen Months' Hard Labour each. WEDDELL— GUILTY.—Recommended to mercy by the Jury .— Fifteen Months' Hard Labour.

Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-153
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

Related Material

153. THOMAS SHAVE (30) , Stealing three pairs of trousers, three shirts and other goods, the property of Edward Stansfield.

MR. W. T. RAYMOND Prosecuted; MR. WILSON Defended,

JOHN LLOYD (Detective Sergeant A). I received information from Mr. Stansfield, and, in company with Leggatt, kept watch on his shop—on 24th November I saw Strache leave the shop, looking rather bulky, about 9 o'clock—he went to a crowd assembled at the corner of Station Street, where the prisoner was, touched the prisoner on the arm, and he followed him into the rear of the Blue Boar public-house—I waited a few minutes, Strache came out again—I went into the yard and saw the prisoner buttoning up the bottom button of his coat—seeing he looked rather bulky, I said "Halloa, what have you got here?"—he said, "All right, Mr. Lloyd, it is only a waistcoat some boy has shoved into me"—he knew me—he undid his coat; on the left side he had this waistcoat (produced)—I asked him who the boy was—he said he did not know—I told him I was not satisfied and took him to the station—after that I went to the prisoner's house and found these three pairs of trousers, a wool jacket, a cord vest, and a blue jacket (produced), and a pair of trousers on the prisoner's son—Strache was sent for by the inspector.

Cross-examined, The urinal is behind the Blue Boar—I watched Strache go into the yard, which is dark.

By the COURT. I did not take the prisoner's statement down in writing.

FREDERICK LEGGATT (Policeman K 382). I received information and went to watch the prosecutor's shop on 24th November—I was with the last witness the whole time—his evidence is correct.

ALFRED SIRACHE . I have been in the employ of Mr. Stansfield about six weeks—I did not know the prisoner before he first came to the shop—he came in and asked for a pair of trousers—I measured him and gave him his fit—he asked for a vest, which I gave him—he paid for them—while my master had gone up to get change he said "I want a blue twill jacket"—I showed him one and he said "That is my fit, wrap it up"—master gave him his change and he made it up in a parcel and went away without paying for the jacket—I went out after him and said "Are not you going to pay for that jacket?"—he gave me a penny and said "Oh, all right, I will be back in a moment"—I went back to the shop—I did not tell my master; it was sleepiness on my part—the prisoner came to the door about an hour after and beckoned me outside and asked me if I thought I could give him a white-cord vest—I said "I will see"—that was on the Saturday; on the next Friday evening I gave him one—he came for it—I am not certain if this is the one; it is one like it—he gave me a three penny piece—on the following Friday he came again, and said "Do you think you could get me a pair of white-cord trousers and a vest?" and two pairs of boy's trousers for each of his twin boys—I said "That is a lot, but I will see"—I told him I would get them to-morrow night—the next night I got the two pairs of trousers from the cellar—I said to him "How am I going to get them out after we have closed?"—he went away and came back with a "Stratford Express," and gave it me to wrap them in—I knocked at the door, went in, and brought the trousers out, one on each side of my coat—he had a man with him—I gave them to him—he opened the paper on the pavement, took them out,

and took them away—he had pulled a purse out and took out a two-shilling piece, a sixpence, and a penny—he said "I have not got what I should like to give you," and no gave me 1s. 7d.—I said "Anything will do"—he asked me to get him a vest—I got it for him, put it in the cellar; I gave it to him; he put it up his coat—I was getting out bills before, and he said "Have you got penty of bills?"—I said "Yes," and went in, and-when I came out I saw him coming round the corner in custody.

Cross-examined. When I gave him the trousers he opened the paper on the pavement in the street—I am fifteen years old—I first went into service at Mr. Horace Brown's, a barrister—I stayed there about a year—he sent me away because gentlemen called and I did not take their names—I next went to Mr. Harmsworth—I don't recollect if he sent me away—I was at Mr. Gill's, an ironmonger's; he sent me away because he had a son coming in—I have been at the prosecutor's about three months—I had a character when I went to him from Mr. Gill.

WILLIAM EDWARD STANSFIELD . I am a clothier in High Street Stratford—the last witness is in my employment—from information I received I communicated with the police about 21st November—I believe this jacket is mine—I identify these two pairs of trousers and sins waistcoat and the trousers the prisoner was wearing at the police-court as mine—I have no recollection of having been paid for them—they are worth about 30s.

Cross-examined. We have not taken stock since—I cannot tall if they were missing from my shop—I can swear positively to this vest—it has not been paid for.

GUILTY. Twelve Months' Hard Labour.

11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-154
VerdictGuilty > unknown

Related Material

154. EMMA COUNTER (38) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.

MR. LLOYD Prosecuted.

CHARLES MOORE . I am a barman at the Princess of Wales public-. house, West Ham—the last week in October, about dusk, I served the prisoner with a pint of ale, which he paid for with good money—another woman was with her, and I served her with twopennyworth of gin—she tendered a shilling—I put it in the tester and broke it—I told her it was a bad one—she took up the two pieces and placed another shilling on the counter—I tried that in the tester, and found it bad; it bent nearly double—she put out her hand, I told her it was a bad one—she had two more in her hand, I put those in the tester and bent them—I said they were bad—I put them on the counter and she picked them up—she has been in our house several times—she said she took them for some work at Plaistow—I told her the best way was to take them back to the place where she got them from—the two women went out at the same time—the other woman drank the beer—I took the gin away.

WALTER BUCKINGHAM . I am a cow keeper at West Ham—on Wednesday, 15th November, a little before 6 o'clock, I was in vicarage Lane delivering milk—the prisoner and another woman came to me—the prisoner said "Will you give me change for a shilling, please?"—I have known her for many years—I gave her change, all coppers—she went away with the other woman—I put the shilling in the ticket pocket of my overcoat—no other coin was in the pocket, only a piece of lead pencil—a short time afterwards I took it out and found it was a bad coin—I then drove after the prisoner—I found her coming out of Mrs. Grottick's shop, in the Plaistow Road, about half a mile off—she was going away from her home—the other woman was standing on the opposite side of

the road—I said "This shilling won't suit me, missis; give mo my change" she mumbled something and gave me my change back—she said. "Oh, you know I would not do you any wrong, I have known you so many years "—I bit the coin—I went into Mrs. Grottick's shop and spoke to her—at the police-court the prisoner said it was the same coin I gave her that she tendered at the shop—she was apprehended on 29th November.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. It could not be the same money because you had come out of the shop and were going away when I went in.

AGNES GROTTICK . My husband keeps a stationer's shop at 89, Plaistow Road—on 15th November, about 6 p.m., I served the prisoner with some slates and a slate pencil for 4d.—she tendered this shilling—I gave her 8d. change—she went away—two minutes afterwards Mr. Buckingham came in—in consequence of what he said I examined the till—I found this counterfeit shilling in it—no other shilling was in it—these marks were not on it—on the 20th I went to West Ham station and picked the prisoner out from ten or a dozen other women—I gave the coin to Sewell.

ARTHUR SEWELL (Detective). On 16th November I went t, Mrs. Grottick's shop-—she gave me this bad shilling—there was a slight mark at the bottom of the head—I made the other marks with my pocket-knife—on 29th November I went with Sergeant Mellish to Stratford railway station—I saw the prisoner there with a Mrs. Collins—I said "I shall apprehend you for uttering a bad coin on the 15th, in the Plaistow Road "—she said "I have not been in the Plaistow Road for two months "—I took her to the police-station—Mrs. Grottick came the same night and picked her out of from a number of women—5s. 6d. was found on her—when the charge was read she said "Iam not guilty, it was the same shilling I gave to Mr. Buckingham "—he said it was not.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. I never saw you utter bad money.

Re-examined. She was in company with four men at the railway-station.

WILLAM WEBSTER . This is a bad shilling.

Prisoner's Defence. I have been a licensed hawker 22 years, and never was locked up in my life. I never passed bad money unless I took it in mistake.

GUILTY .—See p. 259


Before Mr. Justice Stephen.

11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-155
VerdictGuilty > with recommendation

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155. ALFRED HARRIS (25) , For the wilful murder of John Edgar. He was also charged on the Coroner's Inquisition with the like offence.


HENRY MCCULLY . I am a sergeant in the 1st Battalion of the Wiltshire Regiment, stationed at Cambridge Barracks, Woolwich—on Saturday, November 4th, soon after 4.30 p.m., I went into barracks, and after 7 o'clock I went into No. 1 barrack-room, where I spoke to Corporal Edgar, and shortly after the prisoner gave abusive language to me, and I ordered Corporal Edgar to place him in arrest—Edgar did not carry out my order for a moment, and I gave him a second order—Edgar then went to his bed-cot to get his forage cap, and the prisoner walked away towards Corporal Scott—Edgar tapped him on the shoulder, and said "Come on," and the prisoner raised his hand and struck Edgar in the breast—I saw

Something glitter as he raised his hand—he rushed past me, and in about a minute Edgar dropped at the foot of his cot—Holmes, Knight, and Dick were in the room, and soon after Judge came in and drew my attention to Edgar, who was bleeding from his mouth and nose, and I saw blood at the foot of the cot—I ordered Knight and Holmes to take Edgar to the dispensary—an hour after the prisoner came into room No. 3, and I seized him, and said "You are a prisoner," and with the help of another corporal I took him to the guard-room—there was gas in the room where Edgar was struck, and I saw something suspended from the prisoner's hand when he held it up—my opinion was that he was sober.

Cross-examined. I had not said a word to him when he used abusive language to me—I was paying no attention to him, and did not know he had a weapon in his hand—I did not attempt to stop him running away, as 1 did not see him coming till he was at the door.

Re-examined. He said in the guard-room to me "It is quite a mistake you escaped; you will not live 10 minutes after I get off "—I have known him three years.

ADAM DICK . I am a private in the 1st Battalion of the Wiltshire Regiment—I have been in the regiment 14 years, and Edgar was in it when I joined—I have known the prisoner the last few years—I was at the Cambridge Barracks this Saturday at 7.30, by my cot, reading a paper with my back to the door—other soldiers were there—I heard the prisoner tell Edgar not to advance nearer to him—I turned round, and saw his hand raised, and something glittering, and saw him strike Edgar with it on his breast—he then went out—I followed him, leaving Edgar in the room—I had to pass him, and noticed a curious look in his face—I followed the prisoner towards the back gate, and when he was 50 yards from the door of the room he picked up something, but I cannot say what it was—he was walking at first, but ran as soon as I ran—I told the sentry to stop him, which he did—I went and took from him these things, the sheath of a sword-stick, and the handle of it—I did not lay hold of him, as my hands were engaged in taking them away—he had one in each hand—I struck him with the sheath, and found it either broke or had been broken—I followed him, but could not tell where he went—I returned to barracks, and found Edgar carried to the dispensary.

Cross-examined. The prisoner belongs to my company—I liked him—I should say he was a peaceable man—I know he had been a Good Templar four or five months, not taking intoxicating liquors—I was with him at Aden, and at Murah for two years—I am not aware he suffered from the climate—I did not know him to be in the hospital—I often saw him with a glass of beer, but he did not get drunk.

FREDERICK HOLT . I am a private in the 1st Wiltshire Regiment—on 4th November, at 7 p.m., I was in room No. I, Cambridge Barracks—there were three privates there, and Corporal Edgar, who had on his shirt and serge tunic, belt, and hat—he was looking at a paper, and McCully was standing inside the door—I saw the prisoner come in with something in his hand like a ramrod—I heard him mumble something to Light, who was on a bed—he then walked away towards Edgar, and said "You move another inch, and I will send this through you "—he raised his hand, and I saw something shine—he struck Edgar on the left chest, and ran out—Edgar walked to the cot, and pulled off his serge and belt, and went to the end and tried to sit on his cot, but fell at the foot of it—

Knight and I want to him, and found him bleeding from his mouth and nose—I helped to carry him to the dispensary—he never spoke, and after he got there he died in my presence—I saw nothing of the prisoner till two hours after, when he was in custody—I never beard him or Edgar speak against each other—the prisoner was a quiet man for all I know—I noticed he looked wild.

Cross-examined. I have been in the Regiment three months and in the same company—he was a popular man and a quiet one—I told the Coroner that he looked beery and wild.

AUGUSTUS ROBINSON . I have been a private in the Wiltshire Regiment 18 years—on this Saturday at a quarter to 7 I saw the prisoner in the privates' taproom—he asked for a glass of ale; I refused, and he said, "You will be sorry for this "—he had been drinking, but was not drunk—being a corporal he ought not to have been in the privates' taproom—two privates took him out of the taproom, and later on he left the canteen—I went to my room at a quarter to 8, and as I went along the passage I trod on something and picked up this blade of a swordstick (produced)—it was 20 or 30 yards from No. 1 room—any person leaving No. 1 room for the front of the barracks would pass that place—I took it to my room and saw blood on it.

Cross-examined. He did not seem the worse for drink; he walked straight, and seemed to know what he was about—when he said, "You will be sorry for this," he spoke in his usual voice as a sober man, and as if he knew what he was saying.

JAMES NEWMAN . I am a private in the Wiltshire Regiment—on 4th November about 4.30 I saw the prisoner in the barracks—he asked if I was going out in the town—I said "Yes," and we went together to Cattermole's, a stationer's in Artillery Place, where he bought some paper and gave it to me to take to the barracks—I left him at the shop door and went on into the town—about a quarter to 7 I saw him again at Mr. Gray's, a tobacconist's shop at Green End, and asked him if he was going to barracks—he said, "In a minute or two, when I have bought a stick"—he went into Mr. Gray's shop and bought a stick for half-a-crown, but I did not notice what sort of a stick it was—he had another stick in his hand, a common cane, and left carrying the two sticks—I also bought a stick for 6d.—we both went back to barracks—he put the stick which he had purchased on a shelf over his cot in No. 3 room, and chucked the cane on his cot—in about half an hour he came back with Private Judge and asked me to let down his bed—I said, "I will in a minute when I have finished making down my own "—he then asked Judge to make down his bed, and I saw him take the stick which he had bought, off the shelf and pull something out of it which looked like a sword, and said to Judge, "If you do not make down my bed I will run you through your liver"—the stick was whole then—Judge began to let down the prisoner's bed, and the prisoner turned round on me and pointed the sword at my chest—I thought it was play at first, but I saw he looked rather wild about the eyes, and thought he meant mischief, and picked Up my stick and struck the swordstick and broke it in two, and the pointed part fell on the floor—the prisoner picked up the pointed part, stabbed me in my wrist, and ran out of the room and got away downstairs—I tried to catch him.

Cross-examined. I had not noticed that he looked wild about the eyes

on any other occasion—he had nothing to drink while he was with me——I first noticed that he was the worse for drink against Mr. Gray's shop at a quarter to 7—I enlisted at Devizes last September twelvemonth, and after my recruit drill I joined the regiment at Woolwich last April, and during that time the prisoner has been a peaceable man among his comrades—I was not turned out of a public-house that day.

THOMAS JUDGE . I am a private in the Wiltshire Regiment—on 4th November about 7.15 I was in the privates' taproom, Cambridge Barracks, drinking some beer—the prisoner came in and asked me for a pint of beer—I offered him some of mine, but he would not take it—I left with him, and we went to No. 3 room—when we got there the prisoner left the room, and I followed him into the passage—I then went back to No. 3 room with him, and he asked Newman to make down his bed—he said that he would presently when he had made down his own—the prisoner then asked me to make dawn his bed or he would put something through my liver—I afterwards made his bed, and the next instant I heard something jingle on the floor—the prisoner picked something up and left the room, and Newman showed me his wrist, which was bleeding—I bandaged it up—I knew the prisoner in India; he was not a Good Templar there to my knowledge, but he was when he was at Aden—I noticed over two months ago that he had taken to drink—Corporal Edgar was at Aden with us.

Cross-examined. While the prisoner was at Aden he had a violent outbreak of drunkenness, and was confined for a considerable time in the guard-room—that was more than 17 months ago—since then I never saw him the worse for liquor at all till this night, but I have known him to have drink—he was a Good Templar 16 or 17 months, ever since the outbreak at Aden—I noticed that he had been drinking; he did not look the same as I have often seen him.

By the COURT. When he asked me for some beer he spoke a little bit stiffer than I have known him—I did not fancy he knew what he was talking about, that was the reason I brought him out of the canteen—I knew he had been drinking, but I cannot say whether he was the worse for liquor—he was not very drunk—he mast have wasted some beer when he asked for it, but he refused to take it when I offered it to him—he asked for a pint of beer, I offered him some of my own and he refused it, that is why I thought he was under the influence of liquor—he walked straight from the canteen—when he asked Newman to make down his bed he spoke a little rougher than usual.

GEORGE KNIGHT . I am a private in the let Battalion of the Wiltshire Regiment—on Saturday night, November 4, about 7.30 p.m., I was in No. 1 barrack room, sitting on my cot, and Edgar, who had bees doing duty as a staff orderly, came in—the prisoner afterwards came in, came up to me, tapped me on my shoulder with a stick, and said something which I could not hear—as he was going away I felt something on my left arm—my coat was off, I turned up my sleeve, and as the akin was "only just broken I did not take any notice—the prisoner went towards the door, in the direction of Edgar, who I then saw pulling off his tunic—he went towards his cot and fell down at the foot of it.

Cross-examined. The prisoner and Edgar were very good friends—the prisoner was very quiet ever since I have known him—he looked rather wild about his eyes—I have known him since 13th April.

HENRY M'CULLY (Re-examined by the COURT). At the time the prisoner committed the assault his face had a strange appearance, different to his ordinary look; he looked very much excited and very white in the face—I said before the Coroner "His face was as white as paper with passion, when he committed the assault."

THOMAS GRAY . I am a tobacconist, of 2, Green End, Woolwich—on 4th November two soldiers, one of whom was a corporal, came in—I am unable to identify him—he bought a sword-stick similar to this for 2s. 6d.—he seemed to me to have been drinking, and he said "You must excuse us getting a little jolly occasionally "—I said "I don't mind that, but 1 hope you will not get into any trouble through getting too much to drink. "

Cross-examined. I think his tone and manner were those of a drunken man—he also apologised to a customer who was in the shop to a similar effect—he was rather talkative—he seemed to know what he was about, so far as a man who is drunk can be—he seemed unsteady in his gait—he seemed excited from drink, and it took the form of talkativeness.

Re-examined. He asked for a sword-stick when he came into the shop—I showed him one at 6s. first, and he wanted a cheaper one—he said to the other man "Oh, you want a stick too," and he paid for the other man's stick—he chose this stick from a bundle, all at 2s. 6d., and I think he took the first one that came to hand at that price.

THOMAS CLARK (Police Inspector). On 4th November, about 8 p.m., I received information, and went with Inspector Webber to the dispensary, where I saw the body of the deceased—I sent for Dr. Sharp, who pronounced him dead—I examined No. 1 room and found a quantity of blood on the floor at the foot of the deceased's cot—I examined the deceased's clothes and found holes through the left breast of the tunic and shirt—I found the prisoner in the guard-room strapped down—he appeared perfectly mad, he was halloaing, shouting, struggling, and asking to be released as he was in great pain, but lie did not say from what.

By the COURT. I say that he was mad because he did not appear to understand what was being said to him—I asked him if he knew what he had been doing; he made no reply, but kept continually howling and shouting, from which I give it as my opinion that he was perfectly mad—I think he was strapped in such a way as would cause him pain—when he was released from the straps he became calm.

By MR. WILLIAMS. I sent to the station for assistance, and he was taken there on a stretcher, with straps across his body, not round his limbs so as to give him pain—he then went quietly—he was then unloosed from the stretcher, and charged by Captain Beaton, the adjutant, with the wilful murder of Corporal Edgar by stabbing him in the breast with a sword-stick—he said "Very well, I make no statement"—I afterwards received these two pieces of the sword from Sergeant-Major Burdon, and the deceased's tunic and shirt from Sergeant M'Cully—the prisoner was placed in a cell, he then appeared very calm—I saw him again about 9 a.m., and asked him how he was, he said that he felt a little better.

Cross-examined. I examined his wrists, but found no marks of the straps—he was fastened by his wrists to a board on each side, and he had straps round his legs—I did not examine his legs.

By the COURT. He would be strapped down sufficiently tight to prevent his getting away—he did not complain of pain after the straps were released.

JOHN WEBBER (Police Inspector R). On the evening of 4th November I went with Inspector Clarke to Cambridge Barracks, but did not see the prisoner—I went to the station and received a message, and returned to the barracks, telling the constables to bring a stretcher—when I went to the guard-room the prisoner was shouting—he said, "I am in pain, do release me "—he did not say where the pain was—there was a strap round his arms several times; it was tight, and his feet were tied together—I released him, and he ceased shouting—I handcuffed him, placed him on the stretcher, told him the charge was the murder of Corporal Edgar, and advised him to go quietly—four constables carried him to the station, and as I walked by his side he said, "What is my crime, attempt to murder or murder? I have done it on the drink, and I shall go to the gallows like a man; I am not afraid to meet my Maker; I should like to give you a little advice as you have been kind "—I cautioned him that what he had to say he had better reserve till he reached the station—he said, "Very well," but he repeated, "See how I will go to the gallows"—he also said, "I have suffered a great deal, I have been flogged"—we got to the station at 10.30 p.m., and he was placed in the dock and charged.

Cross-examined. He was very violent in the guard-room—I did not see him break a pair of handcuffs, but I saw a broken pair there.

ALFRED SHARP . I am divisional surgeon to the police at Woolwich—on the evening of 4th November I was fetched to the dispensary, Cambridge Barracks, and saw a man there with blood on his face and mouth and shoulder—I found a wound below his left collar-bone—I made a post-mortem examination, and found the wound went downwards 10 or 12 inches and mortally wounded the right lung—this instrument would do it—I saw the coat and shirt with a hole in them—great force must have been used, especially in the absence of a handle to the weapon.

GUILTY. Strongly recommended to mercy by the Jury on account of his youth, and the temporary excitement under which he was labouring.


11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-156
VerdictGuilty > unknown

Related Material

156. LOUISA JANE TAYLOR (36) , For the wilful murder of Mary Ann Tregellis. She was also charged on the Coroner's Inquisition with the like offence MESSRS. POLAND and MONTAGU WILLIAMS Prosecuted; MESSRS. WALTON and WHITE Defended.

WILLIAM TREGELLIS . I lived at 3, Naylor's Cottages, Plumstead—I am 85 years old, and have a pension of 42l. 17s. per annum from the Royal Navy—I had lived there two or three months when my wife died—she would have been 81 if she lived to January 5th—the house has four rooms, two on the ground and two on the top—we occupied the upper rooms and Mr. and Mrs. Ellis the two lower—the prisoner is a widow—her husband, was a Custom House officer; I knew her a little—she came in August, on Bank Holiday, and asked if I would allow her to stop with us for the benefit of her health, and I allowed her to stop a few days—she slept with my wife and I slept in the other room—my wife was well before that, and a fine woman too—she got up and went about before the prisoner came, and went out with the prisoner once and fell and cut her eye—when they returned the prisoner had a fit, and I picked her up, put her on the bed, and sent for a doctor—I don't know his name—he was two hours before he got

life into her—the prisoner got some medicine for my wife's eye, and Mr. Smith saw her—the prisoner and my wife continued to sleep together, and my wife began to alter in health—we sent for a doctor, who ordered her to be shifted into the front room—she got worse after moving—I slept in the back—no one waited on her but the prisoner—my wife told me once in the prisoner's presence she was sick and her throat was burning like are—the prisoner said "It's only the sleeping draught the doctor sent for you to take "—that was two or three weeks after the prisoner came to live with us—my wife was poorly and looked like death—Dr. Smith came to see her, sometimes twice a-day—I noticed that her water was of a reddish colour—before the prisoner came my wife had a good set of teeth; they were white, and when she died they were black—I noticed a change in them a fortnight before she died—she was sick in the night time but scarcely in the day—she would sleep in the day—her appetite was gone; she would take beef-tea—up to the time the prisoner was in custody no one but her attended my wife—no one else gave her medicine—Dr. Smith sent her physic, but she did not take half of it—she did not complain of pain, only in her throat when she took the medicine, and one night she said she would not take it, and the prisoner said "If you don't take it I'll punch you "—I said nothing to it because it was in the night; my wife told me of it; I said nothing to the prisoner of it—after she was given in custody the landlady of the house attended my wife, and she was never sick after she attended her, and her appetite was better, not much; she would take beef-tea—a man named Martin, a watercress man, used to come to our house; I never knew him, and the landlady would not have let him in, but he said he was a nephew of my wife's; he told a lie, he was not a relation—he came to see the prisoner; he had meals there with her, and I had some sometimes when the prisoner was in the front room—it was not me he came to see—the prisoner begged me to let him come, as he was only a poor man—I said to the prisoner "I think my wife is going off"—she said "Yes, she won't last long "—she asked me if I would Uve with her—I said "My wife is not dead "—" Oh," said she," she soon wül be "—I said "I will not go to you; you have turned thief; you have taken two dresses of my wife's, a pair of boots, a black shawl, two petticoats, and a turn-over"—the first thing I missed was a pair of boots of my own—when I called her a thief she said "I ain't"—soon after when I came home I found all my things packed ready for me to go away—I said "What is my things packed for?"—she said "Ain't you going with me?"—I said "No, my wife is not dead or likely to die "—she said "She soon wül be "—next day, after the things were packed, a trap came to take the prisoner away, and a cart for my goods—I told her I would not go, as I had found her out like as she is; I would not live with no one—I gave her no leave to take my goods away—she borrowed 5l. 15s. 6d. of me, and stole 10l. from me—she said she had 500l. left her, she did not say who by, and as. she owed me 5s. 15s. 6d. I should not lose if I would let her come into my place—she showed me a letter, which said "Madam, You will go to such a place on Saturday and draw your 500l.," and she said she would take me to see her draw it—she never had it—I saw her writing, and she said she was making a will for me and my wife—this is it—it was in this envelope—I locked it up in a drawer in my wife's chest of drawers—I found it was gone afterwards—it

was taken out by false keys; that wee before the prisoner lift—I asked where it was—she gave me no answer—ou 3rd October I went to receive my quarter's pension, 10l. 14s. 3d., at the post-office—the prisoner did not go with me, she met me there—I had pawned a suit of my clothes for her for 11s., and she told me she would take them out with her money, but she had no money to take them out, and I took them out—I go to a place of worship twice a day, and I could not go as I had not my clothes—she did not go with me—she said "Your wife wants your money "—I said "What for? I am qualified to take my own money home as I have always done"—she said "Do give it me; the old woman wants it to put under her pillow "—I gave her 9l. at the post-office, not for herself, but for my wife—I said to my wife "Polly, have you got the money?"—she said "No"—I went to the prisoner and—said "Where is my 9l.?"—she said "I have not got it," but Mrs. Ellis told me she saw the money, and I told the prisoner so, but she did not say a word—her husband was a pensioner in the dock-yard, and she told me his pension was 10l. or 15l. a year.

Cross-examined. I married my first wile in 1856—she died in 1879 I think—she drove me out of my mind, and I went to an asylum for seven months, and I got all right—when I went home she was dead, and my son had buried her—it was more than a month after I married again, it might be more than a year—I can't say when I left the asylum; I had been a long time single when I picked up this woman—I can't say whether it was three or four months after my wife died—the woman had only four shillings a week, and I had 19i. a week, and I told her if she liked I would make her my wife—I was an old friend and mate of the late Mr. Taylor—we worked together, and that is how I know the prisoner—she came to me one day and said "Will you go to my husband's box and get his money?"—I said "It is a creditable thing to do," and I did it, and brought him the money—I had stayed at Mr. Taylor's few a few hours several timas, but never passed a night there—they had a house at Little Heath, Charlton, and rented the whole house—it was well furnished; I dare say it was worth 30l.—my wife went with me—my wife was willing for the prisoner to come for a time for the benefit of her health—it was the prisoner who went to the doctor when my wife injured her eye—my wife did not lay up then, but she began to be ill—she laid down in the daytime when her head ached, but she got well and was as right as ever; it was a week after that when she took to her bed—she gradually got worse—her eye was well when she took to her bed; she complained of headache and diarrhoea—the doctor said it was fever ague—the prisoner called Dr. Smith in—I had no suspicion but what the prisoner was doing all she could—she said she was getting things from shops, but my wife never had nothing but cold water—I thought she was kind and a nice woman, and I never thought she would do such a deed; but she put my wife against me, and I could not go and look at her without her saying "I don't want to see you "—the prisoner said she would bring my wife some nice things from the shop, but she did not—the parish allowed me wine for her, and the watercress man brought her a bit of fish, and she tried to eat it—I never saw the prisoner buy her brandy—she told people she brought my wife nice things, but she did not; others brought things for her, out she did not eat them—the prisoner did not bring her custards, or anything at all—there might bare been some custard now and again—she had a roasted apple—lots of people

gave her apples, and Mrs. Ellis roasted them—all I saw her have from the time she was sick, was fish, custards, and roasted apples—I don't know of the prisoner pawning her own things—when I pawned my things for her she was not buying things for the house—while my wife was ill the prisoner was providing all we ate and drank out of my 9l.—till I gave her that on 3rd October she had nothing to provide it from.

By the COURT. I don't know that the prisoner was pawning her own and my wife's clothes to keep the house before I gave her the 9l., as there was 1l. 15s. which she took from my drawer with false keys—I can't say how long it lasted—it did not take 10s. a week to keep the house even when the prisoner was with us, and I had money by me, and paid for all that came in.

By MR. WALTON. I provided for my own house—I did not want Mrs. Taylor to provide anything for me—when she came, all I had to last me till pension day was 1l. 15s., but I had things on trust—I can't say whether my wife gave the prisoner any money, if she did she did not say anything to me of it—I only gave the prisoner the 9l., and the 1l. 15s. she took from my drawers—my wife always had money from quarter to quarter—I only owed 5s. or 6s. at shops on pension day, as I can do from quarter to quarter, and my wife always had a shilling or two at the week's end—I pawned my clothes for 11s. a week before pension day—my wife always had money by her, as I gave her 10l. a quarter, and I never asked her for anything, and we always made both ends meet—some quarters we had more than 1l. left; sometimes only 10s.—she never expended more than 10l. in a quarter since I knew her—she was a saving, industrious womanshe always told me when she had money in hand—I never asked to look at it—she intended to keep the 1l. 15s. till pension day—she had no separate income—the prisoner never said a word about any arrangements—I pawned her work-box for her for 1s. 6d.—she asked me to do it—I never pawned her gown—I did not pawn it for 5s. at a pawnbroker's opposite the Arsenal gate—if my name is on that ticket it is unknown to me, and what she has done herself. (A pawn-ticket was here put in of a gown pawned on August 9th, 1882, for 5s. with Thomas Hayes, by John Tregellis)—that is not me; I never pawned anything belonging to her except the box—I pawned a skirt of my wife's—I can't say when——it may have been on 14th September (A pawn-ticket was here put in in the name of John Tregellis)—that is not me; my name is William—a pawnbroker won't make no mistake in your Christian name, but if you like to tell him a lie you can—I don't remember pawning a skirt for 2s.; if I did, I would tell you (The duplicate was either for a "skirt" or a "shirt")—when I go to places like that I give my name William—I gave the prisoner the 1s. 6d. I gotfor the work-box—I gave the other money to my wife—I lived on good terms with her; no people were happier in the world—I slept with her before the prisoner came—the prisoner made some lime-juice water for her once or twice—I heard her say that she had quarrelled with her relations—a number of bottles were kept in the bedroom—I was taking medicine which I got from the infirmary—I had the scurvy from eating so much salt provisions—I never gave my wife her medicine; the prisoner did that—I never gave it tu her in Martin's presence—he was only there to have his bit of gruel—I brought some medicine from Dr. Smith, but I never recollect giving my wife any—I muy have given her her medicine once or twice, but I can't recollect—I never gave her any

medicine while Martin was in the house—I do not remember Martin drawing my attention to the dirty state of the glass—if I remembered it I would tell you—what I remember I will speak, and I don't remember giving my wife any medicine at all—she was in that way that she could not bear the sight of me through the prisoner putting her up to it—she said "Go away; I don't want to see you "—her mind wandered a little, but it did not wander unless the woman told her something about me—she would not look at me hardly, and before that she was as nice a woman as is on the face of the earth, and when I went in she was as if she could bite my head off—she knew what she was talking about, and I said "Polly, what is the matter? you never were like this before till Mrs. Taylor came here, she is putting you up to envy me"—I have seen people light-headed who have been ill and had their minds wandering, but she never had; her mind was as perfect as mine is now—I was not quarrelling with her for a full half-hour when she was on what was thought to be her deathbed, I never quarrelled with her in my life—I remember now I was growling with her one day about something, but there was not much of it, it was not for half an hour, but about six minutes—I loved the woman too much to fight with her—I cannot say if that was in October—it might have been after she had been sick for some time—I am 86 years old and cannot remember everything as I used to do—she did not complain that she was starved—she could not speak in the daytime, she was always asleep or dozing—she had illusions about cats being in her room—she said "Oh, there is my pussy "—her pussy was put away, but she used to fancy she saw her, that was only now and again—I do not think there was any cat in the room when she said that; many a time I fancy I see a thing and I do not, but as for her mind wandering it wan as right as mine—it was a beautiful cat, and I blame her for being poisoned—I would not have taken 10l. for her—the prisoner said to me "You come and live with me, you shall be rent free if you will"—she never said anything about my wife going too—she said she had got a very large house in Charlton, and if I liked to come and live with her I could—I said "That would be a cheap house for me"—my wife would have been glad to go as well, if I went, if I had put the question to her, but I never did—our old and dirty bedding was not thrown away with a view of our removing from Mrs. Ellis's to Mrs. Taylor's house—cut a mattress up and gave away the inside of it, because there were a few bugs on it—I kept the tick and have got it at home now—I made dish-cloths of it—that might be a week before I intended to move.

By the COURT. It was never stated that I was to remove—I said "My wife is not dead "—she said "She soon will be dead," and asked me if I would go if my wife died—I said "It all depends; I would not go and live with you unless I married you," and she never spoke—I said "You have turned thief, I would not go and live with you now "—I would not go and live with her at all.

By MR. WALTON. I put the mattress out on the dust heap because there were bugs on it, not because I did not wish to take it to Mrs. Taylor's, I meant to btíy a new one—I afterwards thought I would make it into dish-cloths—the prisoner may have said that she would not have it in her house, my memory is so bad—I did not help to pack up my things, nor did I know that that they were going to be packed up, nor did I ask Martin to help to pack them up—I did not sena Martin with a parcel to

Charlton, but Mrs. Taylor did, I believe—if I had known that he was currying a parcel or two parcels to Plumstead Station I should han stopped him—I did not know that Martin had been sent for the van and the cab till I heard Mrs. Smith, the doctor's wife, speaking about it—I have two or three chairs of the prisoner's at my house still, and I may have a few little things besides, she made me a present of a few things. Re-examined. When I married my wife she kept a little school, and was getting three shillings a week from the parish—she lost the school when I married her.

SARAH ELLIS . My husband is a writer in Woolwich Arsenal—we have lived for 20 years at 3, Naylor's Cottages, Plumstead—early in May this year Mr. and Mrs. Tregellis came to live with us—they occupied the two upstairs rooms and paid 3s. 3d. a week—they had their own furniture—there was a third room on that floor which was our bedroom, and three rooms downstairs—no one else lived in the houseMrs. Tregellis was in good health up to the time she met with an accident—she generally went out for a walk twice a day—she was very nimble and quick for an old lady—they used to go out together and bring their things in—on 27th July the prisoner came as a friend bat did not stay the night—she came again the next day and stayed there till she was taken in custody—she slept with Mrs. Tregellis in the back room at first and Mr. Tregellis in the front room—up to that time Mr. and Mrs. Tregellis had slept together—I remember Bank Holiday, August 7th, and on the Wednesday after that Mrs. Tregellis went out tor a walk with the prisoner, and came home with her eye badly cut and strapped up—the prisoner said that she took her to the Dockyard Station, and some boy threw her down—she was poorly on the Thursday but she went out twice to get beer for the prisoner—on Friday she complained of diarrhoea and sickness and was poorly all day—on the Saturday the prisoner told me that she was in bed, and asked me to look after her in the afternoon, as she was going to receive 500l., and when she returned she said she had received it at the Bank in Powis Street, Woolwich, and had put part of it into a building society, that it was left her by a gentleman, and the will was made at sea—while she was away I went up twice to Mrs. Tregellis—she was asleep—when I got close she opened her eyes and looked at me as if she was in a stupor—after Sunday she was much relaxed and sick, and was so up to 27th August—Dr. Smith was called on 16th or 17th August, the prisoner still slept with her and looked after her—Mr. Smith left attending her in a few days—he came again on 27th August—that was the day the prisoner called me upstairs where the deceased was and asked me to see her, as she did not think she would live the day through—I asked her how she was—she said very ill and very sick—she was sick while I was in the room—the colour of it was a dark green—I asked the prisoner what made the vomit so dark; she said it was the motion coming up—I noticed how very black the old lady's teeth were—I asked the prisoner what made them so black; she said it was Dr. Smith's medicine—they were very black indeed—I then left the room; the prisoner was remaining there then—before this Sunday, the 27th, I had now and then gone into the room—I always asked how the old lady was at the door in the morning—I noticed the teeth changing colour a few days after abe was taken ill; they were vary white before—she was always sick of a night and

very often in the day time too—I have heard her sick before we went to bed, and we have been woke up in the night and not been able to get our rest—on Sunday, the 27th, I asked the prisoner how she was—she said she was no better, she was very sick—I saw her every morning in the same week—one morning before the Friday I asked the old lady how she was—she said she was no better, very weak, and she did not think she would be any better until she had got all that nasty stuff off her chest; she also said if she laid there much longer she should be starved—the prisoner laid that she was not conscious, that she was wandering—she did not seem so to me; she always seemed to be in a kind of stupor, and always lying with her eyes shut—I did not give her any medicine—on Sunday, 1st October, I went into her bedroom—she had then been moved into the front room with the prisoner, and the old gentleman in the back room—the prisoner called me upstairs, as she thought the old lady was in a tit—I found her sitting on the night-stool—she was stretched out, and stiff and cold, and the eyes were fixed—the prisoner was all of a tremble, and said she felt dreadfully frightened—I asked her if the old lady had had any motion; she said "No, not for eight days"—I assisted the prisoner to help her into bed, and as I did so she fell powerless on the right tide—I asked the prisoner the cause of it—she said it was paralysis—the old lady did not speak at all—alter we laid her down in bed her fingers seemed to be all on the twitch and moving—1 asked the prisoner the cause of it; she said it was convulsions—I put my hand on her face, and it seemed quite cold—I told the prisoner so, and she said "Yes," she thought she was going—she told me to listen, she thought the had the rattles—I heard something in the throat; it seemed like phlegm in the throat—I told the prisoner, if she wanted any one, if she knocked at my bedroom door I would come to her in the night—I left the room about 8.15 in the evening—the old gentleman was then in bed—I was not called by the prisoner during the night—next morning I knocked at the door and asked after the old lady—the prisoner said she was a little better, but she had two more fits in the night—I asked why she had not called me—she said she had managed herself—as she opened the door I saw the old lady lying in bed as if asleep, just as I had left her the night before—after breakfast the prisoner came down and asked me to lend her a shilling, as the old lady had fancied a little lobster—she afterwards asked me to come up and see her—that was about 11 o'clock—she had her out then on the chair, and she was trying to feed herself with a tittle of the lobster, but she was not able to get it to her mouth—the prisoner commenced feeding her with the. lobster before I left the room—she swallowed two spoonfuls while I was there—she was not sick while 1 vi as there, but about a quarter of an hour after the prisoner came downstairs with a slop-pail, and said the old lady had sicked it up again, and that she had got her into bed again—the prisoner went out that afternoon, and returned after tea—the old gentleman looked after her while the prisoner was out—I went up several times and saw her—she was lying very quiet—she was not sick while the prisoner was out—about 10 minutes after she returned the old lady was sick—the prisoner came down to me in the kitchen about 7.30 that evening, and said she had been over to her residence at Charlton, and they had sent her in a gas bul for 5s. 9d. as the gas had been escaping—on Tuesdav morning, the 3rd, the prisoner went out with the old gentleman to take his pension

—when she returned she said she would pay me the 15s. 3d. that she owed me; that was 10s. 3d. borrowed and 5s. for washing in Augustshe always borrowed a shilling or sixpence till she said she had been to the bank and changed a cheque—she did pay me when she returned with the old gentleman—she said that he had given her nine sovereigns to bring home to the old lady, and she should give them to her to put under her pillow—she showed me the money in her hand—she put it into her purse, and said she would pay me out of her own private money, as she had drawn 8l. out of the bank—she said the old gentleman had kept the remainder of his pension, and she did not know where he was gone to with it—about 5.30 that same evening I heard words passing between the old lady and gentleman—I thought it was something about a drink—they were talking very loud for about half an hour in the front bedroom—the prisoner was not there; she was out—I asked her next morning what the words were about—she said the old gentleman wanted to take the 9l. from under the pillow, and the old lady would not allow him to take it—she asked me then what I thought of the old gentleman—I said I did not know—she said she had found a letter in his pocket, which had been directed to be left at the post-office till called for—she said she had been writing to some woman at Greenwich asking if he might come and live there after the old lady was dead; that she had spoken to the old lady about it, and that she said she did not know any one that he could be writing to—she said that she had spoken to the old gentleman, and that he said it was his cousin, and that he was going there after the old lady was dead—I told her if she left the old lady like that again I should call in a doctor and the relieving officer—she said that she would remove the old lady to her residence at Charlton; and as for the old gentleman, she would send for Mr. Patcham, the relieving officer, and have him put away—that was all that passed then—on the following day, Thursday, the prisoner and the old gentleman commenced packing up in the front room, where the old lady was lying—there was a lot of books packed up, and a lot of crockery and things put in readiness to go away—some was cast-off furniture which the prisoner said she was going to give to the old couple which she would not require at her new residence; the remainder were the old people's—the old lady laid most of the Thursday very quiet with her eyes shut—she was sick at night—on Friday morning, the 6th, the prisoner went out early and returned about 12.30 in the day with young Martin; and a few minutes before 1 o'clock she went away with Martin, and he took two bundlesshe came back about 6 o'clock and she was then given into custody by the old gentleman—Martin had come back with her and there was a cab waiting outside—Martin sold watercresses—he used to come and see the prisoner—his first visit was on Tuesday, 1st August—he used to come every day, and twice a day the last few weeks that the prisoner was there—he used to have food there—I asked the prisoner who he was—she said he was the old lady's nephew—after the prisoner was taken into custody I attended to the old lady—Dr. Smith attended her regularly, and the police surgeon saw her—acting under the doctors' direction I attended to her and gave her her medicine—she rallied nicely on the Sunday, the 8th; that continued up to the Friday, the 20th—she died on Monday, the 23rd, at 5.20 in the morning—she lost her speech on the Friday afternoon—she did not vomit at all during the whole of the time I attended

her, from Friday, the 6th, till she died—she took the nourishment I gave her In small quantities—I sat up with her and attended to her day and night—I sat up every night during that period; she was able to speak and was quite sensible—I first noticed the colour of her water on Saturday, the 7th—it was a very high colour—I noticed it after that; it was always a very high colour at first; it was paler about a week after—the money the prisoner borrowed of me was a shilling and sixpence at a time—on the 27th was the first I lent her, when she took the fits—she paid me that; the 10s. 3d. was independent of that, and the 5s. was for twice washing for her—she never told me there was anything the matter with her except the fits.

Cross-examined. The Tregellises were my tenants, they paid 3s. 3d. a week—I was always paid every week till the prisoner came—I was never paid any rent after she came only in large quantities, three weeks at one time and five weeks when the old gentleman took his pension—the prisoner paid those sums—the 5s. was for the Tregellises' washing as well as her own—she borrowed of me right up to the time she went ont to take the pension—she borrowed 1s. that morning—she did not have the use of my fire for cooking as a rule—she never cooked anything in the kitchen, she would have a little hot water to make the old lady a little brandy and water—that would be three or four times during the time she got port wine in small quantities—I have seen the wine in a quartern bottle, and brandy too—she told me she brought bottles of champagne and bottles of port, but I never saw them—she said she had given 7s. 6d. for a bottle of champagne, but I never saw any—when the old lady was in the back room they used to cook their food in the front room, but when they moved into the front room they did their cooking in the back room—they used not to cook on my fire at all—she baked a small pie in the oven on Sunday—I said before the Magistrate that the old lady was quite sensible at times, and able to speak—fat times she used to lie asleep and take no notice of any one—I never knew of her fancying there were cats in her room—the prisoner told me she should move the old lady to her residence, but she did not tell me when—neither was there any notice given—I understood that the old gentleman was going too; he always seemed to have a wish to go with Mrs. Taylor—he assisted the prisoner in packing up on the Thursday, and he was packing up on the Friday too when she was out—packing up their own household effects—I saw the prisoner put the mattress through the back window to Martin, and he and the old gentleman brushed it in the yard and they took it back again upstairs into the bedroom—I heard the prisoner say it was so beastly dirty she would not have it in her house—that was on the Friday morning when they were preparing to move—the prisoner spoke about a legacy of 500l. being left to her—on Thursday, 27th July, when she came to see the old people, she said she had come to tell them that she was going to take them to Ramsgate on Tuesday for a month, and that she had taken rooms there, for which she was paying 1l. a week; that she had sent her luggage on, that she had 500l. left her, which she was goiug to receive on the Saturday—she went away that evening and returned on Friday afternoon, and said she had been to London to see the lawyers, and that everything was settled, and she would take the money on the Saturday morning—on Saturday she asked me to. look to the old lady while she went to draw it—she was away about two hours—the bedroom door was

almost always open, and the window too—the prisoner generally sat in the room.

Re-examined. She mentioned the name of her lawyer in Woolwich, not in London; that was when she came out of the fit—she said "I have paid Mr. Lewis 5l. for his expenses to London "—Mrs. Tregellis had a cat, which she was very fond of—I don't know what became of it; I missed it five or six weeks before the old lady died.

MIRIAM TAYLOR , I am a widow——I live at 11, Parson's Hill, Woolwich—the prisoner married my nephew, Thomas John Taylor—he died on 18th March last—the prisoner was living with him at Little Heath, Charlton—he was a pensioner from the dockyard at 5s. a week—the prisoner afterwards went to live at 3, Baylor's Cottages—after her husband's death I lent her 28s., 1l. in one sum and some in different sums—on the Thursday in Bank Holiday week I went to Naylor's Cottages and spoke to the prisoner at the door—on my way there I met Mrs. Tregellis—she was out seemingly on an errand—I noticed that something was amiss with her eye—I had seen her before, at my nephew's house—I went to the house again, it might have been rather more than a week after, and saw the old lady hi bed—the prisoner was there—I asked her what was the matter with Mrs. Tregellis—she said she was suffering from ague and fever—I said I thought the best thing to give her was" a little port wine and bark—she said she had a doctor to her, and that she had medicine from the doctor, and had a white powder to put in the medicine every night—Mrs. Tregellis seemed very ill indeed—I spoke to her; she said she felt very bad and very weak—I received a letter from the prisoner on 27th September, in consequence of which I went to Naylor's Cottages the next day—I went up into the bedroom and saw Mrs. Tregellis very ill in bed—the prisoner was there—I asked Mrs. Tregellis how she was; she could scarcely answer me, she was so ill—this (produced) is very like the letter I received—it is the prisoner's writing—there was another letter inside it; I can't say whose writing that was—I noticed that Mrs. Tregellis's face looked very ghastly, and I said to the prisoner "Dear me, how very ghastly Mrs. Tregellis looks to-day! she does not look to me like a person dying a natural death "—she said the doctor said it was the decay of nature, and she would not live—I asked Mrs. Tregellis in the prisoner's presence if she felt prepared to leave this world, and she said she was quite resigned to the will of God—I noticed on 28th September that Mrs. Tregellis's gums and teeth looked very dark—I did not pass any remark upon it.

Cross-examined. The prisoner told me that she would receive some money on the 3rd under a will—I can't remember when she said that—it is only since my nephew's death that I have heard anything of it—the often spoke of it—I have not been on very good terms with her lately—I was present on one occasion with my minister in her kitchen when a letter arrived, which I took from the postman myself—the prisoner opened it and read a small portion of it out loud—it was respecting 500l. that had been left by a friend who had died abroad, or coming home from the Cape of Good Hope—she read the name of the person who sent it, Colonel Sartin, and I saw the letter, but I did not read it through—I could not say whether the name was in full or whether it was in initials—the money was expected from Colonel. Sartin's death—I understood from her that he died on his passage home—I think it very possible that the letter must have come from

the lawyer—she did not tell me who it was written by—I saw Mrs. Tregellis twice—she was not in bed the first time on Bank Holiday—the second day was about a week after—she was very ill in bed then—it was on that occasion that she complained about sickness, and it was on that same occasion that the prisoner said she had put the white powder into her medicine every night—I swear that; there is no mistake whatever about it—it was said on the first occasion, not on the second. (The witness's deposition being ready stated that it was on the second occasion.) I may have made a little mistake then—I think I am mistaken now and not then (A letter from the prisoner to the witness was read complaining of the witness having circulated reports injurious to her character, and enclosing an anonymous letter addressed to the witness.) I never told any one that the prisoner had made statements which got my parish relief stopped, but I told her to her face that I thought she had—I had been in receipt of parish relief—1 have been chapel-keeper 12 years—the parish relief was stopped, and I think it was owing to the prisoner.

Re-examined. She has never paid me what she owes me—she said she expected to receive the money on 3rd October—she did not say what money—the letter about the money came by post to 2, Samuel Street, where the prisoner lived—the minister, the prisoner, and I were there together—it had on it "On Her Majesty's Service" in print—she opened it and appeared to read something from it—I can't say I never had it in my hand, but not to read—the prisoner kept the letter—I knew nothing of Colonel Sartin—I never heard the name before, or of any friend of hers at the Gape—the bank she mentioned was in Powis Street, Woolwich, I think—I hare never seen the letter or the envelope since—I used to go and sleep with her for several weeks after her husband's death—Mr. Wilson, the minister, went there to witness her will—he signed it—I think it must have been somewhere about June—I could not say positively.

RHODA TRICE . I live at 19, Charlotte Street, Plumstead—my husband U a labourer—I knew Mrs. Tregellis about ten years—I was in the habit of seeing her frequently; two or three times a week up to Bank Holiday, 7th August—she appeared to be in very good health except a little rheumatism in her knees—she used to go out in the day time and attend to her ordinary affairs—she was very cheerful——I remember her eye being injured; that was after the Bank Holiday; I could not fix the date that I noticed it—I saw her after that out of her own house once, and then I saw her several times at her house—after 'the eve was hurt, I think that was the second day I saw her—she was in the back room, her bedroom; she was lying in bed—she was complaining of ague—I noticed that her teeth were discoloured—I went there on 4th October—she was then in the front room—the prisoner was there then—she said she had lost four sovereigns that day—I asked what they would be able to do as regards their living—she said they would 'have to live on her charity, that the old lady certainly could not last long, and she should take the old gentleman to live with her—Mr. Tregellis said yea, that he should go and live with Mrs. Taylor, but he could not 90 and live with her unless he married her—all this was said in Mrs. Tregellies presence; but she was very ill in bed at the time, she did not seem la take any notice of what was said—the prisoner said she had been to her new house and emptied two rooms of furniture for the accommodation

of the old people—she took Mrs. Tregellis out of bed—I noticed how dreadfully thin her legs were, and she caught up one leg and held it up and said "Yes, she is going in a running match"—she asked me if I would come on Friday night to assist her in putting Mrs. Tregellis in a cab, as she was going then to be removed—on Friday night, the 6th, I went round about 5 o'clock and saw her taken into custody—after she was in custody I said toher "Why have you been trying to kill the old lady?"—some one had said something about giving her sugar-of-lead—the prisoner said she had it for an injection for herself, or something to that effect—I lent her a shilling once, about three weeks before the pension day—she repaid me.

Cross-examined. She repaid me on 4th October, that was after the pension day—she said it was to get some port wine for the old lady—she did not tell me in Mr. Tregellis's presence that she had lost four sovereigns; he had gone out of the room—she did not say in his presence that they would have to depend upon her charity; that was said to me—Mrs. Tregellis did not seem conscious to hear what the prisoner said to me; it was a little later that same evening that the prisoner said when Mrs. Tregellis was dead Mr. Tregellis should go and live with her—he was in the room then—I was not in Court when Mr. Tregellis was examined—I heard his examination before the Magistrate—I did not mention before the Magistrate the conversation about Mr. Tregellis going to live with the prisoner; and there was another thing that was omitted: on one occasion, I cannot fix the date, Mrs. Taylor said there was a very offensive smell in the room and she could not imagine what it could be, but she found out that Mr. Tregellis had got a bad leg, and she bought sixpenny worth of carbolic acid—I said "That is poison, is it not?"—she said "Yes," and I said "You must be careful how it is used "—Mr. Tregellis heard me speaking about it, and he said he wanted nothing of the kind, but merely a bread poultice—I told Inspector Phillips of that, and he took it down I believe—I told Phillips about the conversation as to Mr. Tregellis going to live with Mrs. Taylor; I don't think it was spoken of at the Treasury—I mentioned it to several people, and I believe Inspector Phillips has got it down—I could not swear that I mentioned it to him; I mentioned it to some one belonging to the police-court, I am confident—I do not know Mrs. Tregellis's father—I did not know Mr. Tregellis till about two months after his marriage—I should think that was about four years ago—the prisoner said that the Tregellises were greatly in her debt; that was said in the presence of Mrs. Tregellis and me; Mr. Tregellis was not there then—Mrs. Tregellis was lying in bed unconscious and not attending.

MIRIAM TAYLOR (Re-examined). I first gave my evidence at the police-court—Mr. Morgan and Inspector Phillips came to my house a fortnight after the prisoner was taken—I heard the prisoner had been taken for robbery, and to know the truth I went to the Court on Saturday, as she was taken on Friday, and spoke to Mr. Morgan, who said he feared there was a more serious charge to be brought against the prisoner—I was anxious to know what it was and went to Mrs. Ellis, who told me what she thought had happened—I said, "That makes out her own words what she told me, of putting the white powder in the medicine "—I told the same thing to the inspector afterwards.

ELIZA TRICE . I am the daughter of Mrs. Trice, who has been examined

—on 4th October I saw the prisoner on the Plumstead Road—she gave me 1s. and told me to ask my mother if she would go round in the afternoon, as she was going to see after the new house—I gave the message, and saw the prisoner afterwards and said my mother would go—on the same day the prisoner asked me to fetch two penny worth of brandy in a cup which she gave me—I did so, and took it to the front room upstairs at 11.30 a.m., where the prisoner was—she put it out of the cup into an empty tumbler; it half filled it—she put something into it like milk, out of a jug and held it to Mrs. Tregellis's mouth, who drank a spoonful—she wan sick, and said it was nasty—she was in bed when I fetched the brandy, but was up when I returned and sitting in a chair—she was actually sick, and the stuff she threw up was red—the prisoner stood the tumbler on the night-stool—I was in the room half an hour.

Cross-examined. Mrs. Tregellis did not seem very ill when I went for the brandy—the prisoner did not say why I was to fetch it—when I returned I asked Mrs. Tregellis how she was—she said, "Not very well"—she was eating some custard before the brandy was sent for, but she did not eat much, and it was left—the window is opposite the door, and Mrs. Tregellis sat with her back to the fireplace; the window is opposite the fireplace; she was not at a table—when I took the brandy the dinner was on the table; there was a cloth set, and bacon and beans, and I fetched some beer—Mr. Tregellis did not come in—in addition to the jug in which I brought the beer, there was the jug from which Taylor poured the liquid into the brandy—(The witness here pointed out on paper the position of the door, window, fireplace, and bed)—she took the jug she gave me from the cupboard, and the other jug with stuff like milk in it was on the table.

MATILDA STUBBERFIELD SMITH . My husband is a surgeon, of 89, Plumstead Road—he also has a retail shop, in which I assist when the assistant is absent—the prisoner used to come to the shop—she came the second week in August and said, "Do you sell sugar-of-lead?"—I said "Yes"—she said, "How do you sell it?"—I said, "Two pence the ounce; you can have any quantity, one pennyworth or two pennyworths"—Í believe the took twopenny worth—I labelled it, "Sugar-of-lead, poison "—I said, "You see it is labelled 'poison'"—she said, "I know it is poison, that is why I asked if you sold it, I want it for an injection "—she took it away, and came in several times during the week—about a week before she was taken in custody she came in and asked me for a pennyworth of sugar-of-lead; I gave it to her—we keep it made up in half-ounce packets like this (produced) labelled" J. Smith, sugar-of-lead, poison "—I remember a man named Martin bringing me a paper; I could not read it, it being a feint writing and gaslight—I took it to my husband's consulting-room—he read it, gave it to me, and came into the shop, and from what he said I weighed out 1 oz. of sugar-of-lead, and labelled it as usual, and gave it to Martin, who took it away—I did not know him before—this was the 12th or 13th September—I gave the paper to my husband, who put it in his pocket, and when I put my glasses on and read it I saw that it was Mrs. Taylor's writing; I knew her writing, as we had a note from her before—I saw my husband tear it up after the bill was sent in—it was not added to the bill, and he said, "Say no more about it"—Martin did not pay for it—the substance of the paper was asking us to send by the bearer twopenny worth of sugar-of-lead for the weakness Mrs. Taylor had—it was signed by her.

Cross-examined. I have seen Mrs. Taylor in the shop 5 or 6 times, not moreshe was there several times in June, not always for medicine for Mrs. Tregellis, but for her own mixture, and all I supplied her with was sugar-of-lead—my husband was in Scotland a fortnight before Bank Holiday, and returned on 3rd August, and for a week before he returned Dr. Bliss, who was doing duty for him, attended Mrs. Tregellis—he was called to her on a Friday, and when my husband returned he and Dr. Bliss saw her together once—she was in a delicate state of health, she paid our account for her medicine; we heard she was going to leave, and sent for it; it was 19s.—that was in October, when Tregellis took his pension—his bill was also sent in; that was 15s., and that was not paid—I can't remember the dates when she bought the poison; the second time was a week before she was taken in custody; it was the end of September as she was taken on 6th October—I was not asked about the second occasion by the Magistrate, only by the Coroner—I made no objection to supply it for an injection, it is often used for that purpose.

Re-examined. Dr. Bliss told me that her complaint was a fit brought on by too much drink.

EDWARD MARTIN . I sell water-cresses, and live at 3, Ropewalk Rails, Woolwich—I have known the prisoner three years—I used to see her sometimes when she lived at Naylor's Cottages, and had my meals with her—she gave me a paper to take to Dr. Smith in Plumstead Road; I did not see her write it—I took it and gave it to Mr. Smith, and took something back with a label on it, which I gave to the prisoner—I did not pay for it—it was a month before she was taken in custody.

Cross-examined, I saw Tregellis there—we joined together at our meals—he did not object to my being there; he often used to tell me to come and keep him company at night, so I became a friend of them all—he said the prisoner was kind to his wife, and he phould like to marry her, and he did not know what they would do unless Mrs. Taylor continued to trust them—I lent the prisoner 5s. to get food for the old lady, as the gentleman had no money—I remember seeing port wine and lemons, custards, and things of that sort, and the prisoner seemed to be treating Mrs. Tregellis as if she was nursing her through illness—she was kind and affectionate—she had all she wished for, and the prisoner rendered in every way the services one woman would render another in an illness—I understood both Mr. and Mrs. Tregellis were leaving, and I helped to tie up two parcels; Mr. Tregellis was there then—he and the prisoner ordered me to take them to Plumstead Station, and I did so—I did not engage the cab and van, but I knew they were coming, as Mr. Tregellis and the prisoner said "Come in the evening and help remove the goods "—one day when Taylor was out I saw Tregellis give his wife some medicine which was very white, out of a glass on the table—the glass had been wiped with a towel, but it did not look clean—I said "That's not a clean glass;" he said 4, That will do, I will wipe it," and he did so.

By the COURT. He made it clean before he put the medicine in it—it had been used for her medicine at other times; it was kept for the purpose, it was always on the table—half a dozen medicine bottles stood there, and there was some medicine there which Tregellis used to put on his leg; he has a bad leg—I did not notice that she was wandering in her mind—I

used to go there to keep Tregellis company, but when I went away I used to say "Good night" to Mrs. Tregellis.

Re-examined. We had our meals in the back room; I sometimes paid for them, and I fetched some fish when the deceased said she would like it—I have been in the bedroom three or four times—it was a month before the prisoner was taken in custody that I saw Tregellis take the bottle and pour out some stuff for the deceased I—that was the only time I saw him give her anything—it was white—the bottle was three-parts rail. (MR. TREGELLIS: He is telling a lie, I never gave my wife any medicine.) He used a wineglass—she drank it, and said "That will do," and put the glass down, and said it was nasty—she was sick a quarter of an hour after.

CHARLES GILLHAM (Police Sergeant R). I am gaoler of Woolwich Police-court—on 10th October, in the afternoon, I fetched the prisoner from Clerkenwell Prison, where she was under remand, and said "I am going to take you to Woolwich to be present while the deposition of Mrs. Tregellis is taken, you need not say anything to me in reference to the case so as criminate yourself"—I took her to 3, Naylor's Cottages, where Sergeant Morgan read over the charge-sheet to her, and Tregellis signed it—I then took the prisoner up to the front roou, where Mrs. Tregellis was lying, and she was sworn by the Usher or the Magistrate's Clerk—Mr. Marsham, the Magistrate, was sitting thei-e, and I put the charge-sheet by him—the charge was unlawfully and maliciously administering a certain noxious drug to Mary Ann Tregellis, thereby endangering her Ufe and occasioning her actual bodily harm—Mr. Trotter took the deceased's deposition, JOHN GLASS TROTTER. I am Clerk to the Magistrates at Woolwich Police-court—on 10th October I went to 3, Naylor's Cottages, to the room where Mrs. Tregellis was in bed—she was sworn, and the Magistrate put questions to her—I took down her deposition, and the prisoner crossexamined her—she then put her cross to it; it was afterwards completed and the Magistrate signed it—this is it—no professional man was present on either side.

Cross-examined. From the 6th to the 10th October she was under the impression that the charge was stealing—she was first charged on the 10th with the administration of the noxious drug—Mrs. Tregellis did not seem to be wandering or weak in her mind during the examination—it is true that at the end of the examination her mind did wander, and the Magistrate said so—I don't remember that a stimulant was given her; it might have been—the prisoner put four or five questions to her, and she seemed to understand them—the prisoner made a rambling remark about it being no use to ask her any more questions—the Magistrate did not sign the deposition then; it was taken on the 10th, and he signed it on the next Monday when she appeared again—Mrs. Tregellis died on 23rd October—the first hearing on the charge of murder was on the 27th, and I don't think the Magistrate had signed the deposition at that date—he signed it after the first remand on the charge of murder—I think that was after the 27th.

Re-examined. We had no means of knowing on the 10th whether might not recover and come to the police-court.

MR. POLAND proposed to put in the deceased's deposition, to which MR. WALTON objected, 1st, that it was taken upon another charge, and 2nd, that it was clear that the Act of 30 and 31 Vic. intended that the Magistrate should sign it at the time it was taken, which he had not done; that it was like a will taken down from the lips of a dying person, to which the Magistrate was the attesting witness, and unless his signature was placed there at the time, it would have no weight as an attestation, and the object of the Act would be frustrated; and further, that unless he signed it at. the time lie, would have no means of knowing that he signed the identical document; that he must do it at once, and not afterwards at his own house. MR. POLAND contended that there was no necessity for the Magistrate to complete the deposition at the time it was taken; it was sufficient for him to do so when it was transmitted to a superior Court. If the woman had recovered, afresh deposition might have been taken, but finding that she had died the Magistrate signed it, and there was nothing in the Act to the contrary. (Cases referred to: Reg. v. Parker, 1 Crown Cases Reserved, p. 225; Reg. v. Fretwell, 3 Russell on Crimes; Reg. v. Lord Mayor of London, Russell on Crimes, vol. 3, p. 520; and Reg. v. Leadbetter, 3 Carrington and Kirwan, p. 108.)

MR. JUSTICE STEPHEN, after taking time to consider the point, gave judgment as follows:" Objection to this deposition has been taken upon two grounds—1st, That it was taken upon another charge; 2nd, That it was not signed by the Magistrate at the time it was taken. As to the first, in my opinion I am bound by the decision in Queen v. Beeston, Dearsley, p. 405, quoted in Queen v. Leadbetter, which was decided by the Court for the Consideration of Crvwn Cases Reserved. The second point turns entirely upon the wording of the Statute, 17th section. Upon that it is objected, that the taking of the deposition and the signing by the witness and the Magistrate ought to be one continuous act, and if not signed by the Magistrate at the time it would be an invalid deposition. In order to read the statute in that way you would have to import into the section the words 'then and there' shall put the same into writing, and 'then and there' the same shall be signed. Those words are not in the statute; that may be a matter for the Legislature to consider, but being bound by the simple language of the statute, conditions cannot be imported into it which the Legislature has not put into it. I shall therefore admit the deposition. "

The deposition was then read. "Mary Ann Tregellis on oath saith as follows: I live at 3, Naylor's Cottages, Plumstead. I am the wife of William Tregellis. Prisoner has been living in the house about six months, not as a servant. She has slept with me all the time she has been in the house. I was always in good health before she came. I became poorly first about three months ago. I felt queer and sick, and the doctor ordered mo some medicine. Mrs. Taylor always gave me the medicine; I could not say whether she took it out of a bottle; she took it out of this bottle—two tablespoonfuls. It caused me to be very sick after taking it. I felt sick three months ago after taking the medicine. I saw two bottles used at a time, both of this size. The doctor ordered me one bottle at a time to be used every four hours. I saw some white powder put in by Mrs. Taylor; I tasted it, and said 'I can't take that; it is nauseous stuff, and as sour as vinegar. 'I took it, one dose; I don't know whether it was two or not; I won't say for certain. I know now it was two doses. I went to take some

more. I said 'I can't take that; it will kill me. 'I saw it was a kind of a white mixed powder. I feel sure it was two doses. I only saw her mix it once with the powder. I haven't seen her do anything to the medicine after the occasion I mentioned. It made me quite ill, and quite in a stupor. In about about an hour after I felt a burning heat in my throat. I was very sick indeed; black vomit came up about an hour after I took the medicine. I thought I tasted the same medicine again afterwards, but not so strong. I was sick again two months ago after taking the medicine. "

Cross-examined. "I don't know the date she came; it was about the 4th of August. I am sure it was a white powder. Mrs. Taylor was always with me at night. She was not with me all day. "

EDWARD GLANVILLE (Policeman R 181). On Friday, 6th October, I was sent for to 3, Naylor's Cottages, Plumstead, and found the prisoner there—she was given in custody by a very old. man, and I told her she would be charged with stealing two dresses, a petticoat, a shawl, and a pair of boots—she said "Yes, I pawned the two dresses and the petticoat unbeknown to the old people, but the others were pledged by me and the old man with the old lady's sanction for food and nourishment"—on the way to the station Mrs. Trice came up in Thomas Street and said "You are a bad, wicked woman; you have been trying to kill the old lady with that sugarof-lead"—the prisoner said "I bought some sugar-of-lead at Dr. Smith's, in Plumstead Road, but I used it on myself as an injection as I was so weak"—I took her to the station; the charge was read over to her, and she said "I pawned those two dresses and a petticoat"—Mrs. Cronin, who searched her, gave me ten pawntickets, and the prisoner gave me thirteen—the last in date is Sept 23rd—this list contains the articles, the name, the amount, and the pawnbroker—the total is 4l. 9s.

SUSAN CRONIN . I am female searcher at Woolwich Station—I searched the prisoner on 6th October, and found on her 10 pawntickets, which I gave to Glanville.

WILLIAM MORGAN (Police Sergeant). I read over the charge-sheet to the prisoner at 3, Naylor's Cottages—she made no reply—she was taken upstairs and examined by the Magistrate—on 24th October I received from Mr. Sharp, at 3, Naylor's Cottages, two sealed jars, and took them in the same state to Dr. Stephenson, at Guy's Hospital, on the 26th, and delivered them personally, and he gave me a receipt for them—he also gave me a message for Mr. Sharp, which I delivered, and he gave me another sealed jar, which I took in the same state, and delivered to Dr. Stephenson personally, and he gave me a receipt for it—on 14th November I received a bottle of water from Mr. Smith at 3, Naylor's Cottages, which I delivered in the same state to Dr. Stephenson personally at Gay's Hospital, and he gave me a receipt—after the prisoner was in custody I carefully searched the room occupied by Mrs. Tregellis, but found no syringe—I found this will in this envelope, among other papers, in a desk which was pointed out to me as the prisoner's—I took charge of eight bottles of physic from them, and showed them to Mr. Smith.

Cross-examined. I carefully searched both rooms, back and front.

THOMAS WILLIAM ELLIS . I live, with my wife, who has been examined, at 3, Naylor's Cottages—when the prisoner was living there she asked me

to witness this will, which was already drawn out—she signed it in my presence, and I witnessed it; in fact, I signed it first—Mr. Smith, the surgeon, also signed it in my presence—I know that it was a will in favour of the Tregellises—the prisoner said that she wished to do them a good turn—that was the only time I saw her write—I am a writer, but have had no reason to study handwriting. (The will was here put in.)

JOHN SMITH . I am a M. R. C. S., of 89, Plumstead Road—I am a general practitioner, and have a retail shop there—on 23rd August I went to Naylor's Cottages; I can't say who fetched me—I went upstairs to a back room, and there saw Mrs. Tregellis in bed—I had seen her before, but not as a patient—she was lying on her back—she seemed very low and weak, and complained of sickness and cold shivers and perspiration, and tenderness of the pit of the stomach and abdomen—her complexion looked sallow, and she complained of confined bowels—I asked her age; she said 82—her teeth were dark, and her tongue was also dark brown, not all the way, but at the back part—I thought that she was probably suffering from an attack of ague—Plumstead is an agueish place, and I thought it was probably ague, debility, and old age—I continued to attend her for 11 days daily, and then every other day, till 6th September—I think the prisoner was almost always present—I sent in medicine, and gave the prisoner instructions what to do and how to give the medicine—I never saw the woman sick, but she frequently complained of being sick; in fact she said everything made her sick—I frequently asked the prisoner to save the vomit—the prisoner described it to be of a darkish green character, with a yellow shade, but I never saw it—the prisoner said it was so very offensive she really could not keep it; at other times she told me the motion was with it, and she could not save it that way; that it had got mixed in the utensil—on 6th September I ceased to attend her; the sickness had abated to a great extent, and she was getting better—the teeth seemed to get darker—I asked the prisoner about the teeth and also about the tongue, and she said the teeth had always been so—she did not make any remark about the tongue—I had no suspicion of anything—there was no powder in the medicines I sent; it was mixtures and pills, no white powder whatever—Í don't think there was anything in my medicine that was likely to make her sick—some people are sick at very little—there was nothing in the nature of an emetic; it was not my object to produce sickness, but the reverse, to allay the sickness—on 9th September I was called in again; the symptoms had returned, except the shivers—she was very much as before, lying in bed. but she had removed to the front room—when I left her she was up and walking about, and I then gave orders for her to be removed to the front room, as it was brighter and more airy—Tregellis, I believe, sent for me on the 9th—I saw the prisoner there—I continued to attend about every other day till 16th September—during that period I believe she was sick as before—she complained very much of sickness still, but I never saw the vomit—the teeth were still black, and she was very low, very feeble, but I thought, considering her age and the health she had had, that she was fairly well, and I left on the 16th—the medicinen I sent in from the 9th to the 16th were mixtures and pilla, no white powder—on Friday, 6th October, I was called in again—I saw her then in bed, she was very much weaker, very feeble indeed, very

yellow, sallow, and the sickness and everything had been making her weak—she was almost too weak to speak—she was suffering from muscular tremor of the fingers—all the fingers were moving; she could scarcely lift her hand—that was a sign of great weakness—I have frequently seen it in old age—she complained of sickness and vomiting, and great pain in the stomach and abdomen, and general feebleness—I could see she was very much worse—I noticed that her teeth were black, as before—I think they were much about the same as before, but I examined her gums then and found a blue line on the gums next the teeth especially were very dark blue, showing evidence of chronic lead poisoning—I may say also that where the tartar was on the teeth it was very much darker than where the enamel was clear—I have been in practice at Woolwich getting on four years—I have seen cases of lead poisoning, and I have no doubt on the subject—this blue line is a very distinctive feature of chronic lead poisoning—the pain in the abdomen and tenderness at the pit of the stomach are also signs—I noticed that the whites of her eyes were very yellow—I can't say whether I examined her eyes in the first instance—the darkness of the teeth might be caused by other things than lead—some mineral poisons, sugar-of-lead in solution, would do it—sugar-of-lead in solution would produce a burning sensation in the throat, if given in large quantities—a very minute quantity probably might not be detected; 20 or 30 grains would—if given in large quantity I believe it would produce sickness, and it produces costiveness—I have not seen it given in quantities—lead does not produce costiveness where it is not taken in quantities—this is the first case I have seen where sugar-of-lead was given; it has been lead in some other form—it makes the urine of a high colour, I believe—I saw the urine in this case; it was dark red—that was after I had been called in the last time—sugar-of-lead is a white crystalline powder without any lumps—it is not perfectly soluble in water; it produces a white deposit in ordinary water—it gives a milk-andwater appearance—the effect is cumulative; it is not an active poison—it gets absorbed into the blood and the whole system—it accumulates in the body; it is not discharged as fast as it gets in—arsenic continually passes through the body, and in vomiting till it is ejected—it produces its effects immediately, and on its passage through the body—after 6th October Mrs. Ellis attended to Mrs. Tregellis, and acted under my instructions—on the 9th I got Dr. Sharpe to see her, and we both saw the blue lines on the jaw—I continued to treat her as suffering from chronic lead-poisoning—she died on 23rd October—I believe she was not sick at all from the 6th to the 23rd—she never complained of sickness—she rallied very much the first week or 10 days, and then gradually sank, paralysis coming on—chronic lead-poisoning does produce paralysis, but not the paralysis described in this case—probably it had not been sufficiently long to produce general paralysis—I saw her urine during that period; it was of a dark reddish colour—I requested Dr. Sharpe to make the post-mortem—I was present and Dr. Atkins was present representing the prisoner—I prefer Mr. Sharp giving, the details of the post-mortem—I saw small pieces of the large intestine constricted, about four or five inches, narrowing certain parts of it—I did not attach much importance to that—there was nothing in the state of the organs to account for death—the blue lines still remained quite as much, and the dark teeth'—in my judgment the cause of dearth was chronic lead

poisoning—old age had something to do with it—at that age death was accelerated; she had not the constitution to resist the poison—sugarof-lead is sometimes given as a medicine internally, sometimes as a lotion externally, or as an injection, about four or five grains to the ounce of water—it is generally made up in an eight-ounce bottle—we sell it to the public, 437 1/2 grains to the ounce—we sell it in these packets; we always label them "Poison"—these are half-ounce packets; we keep them in a drawer ready for use—on 14th November I took a sample of the ordinary drinking water at the house; it was a constant water supply; lead might have got into the water—I put the sample in a clean bottle, sealed it, and gave it to Sergeant Morgan—six of the bottles found at the house were my medicine bottles, with my labels on them—some of them are almost full—one of them contained carbolic acid—that is not my bottle; a bottle was bought for it; it is empty now; it has contained carbolic acid; that is a disinfectant—one of the bottles is labelled" Laudanum, poison"—that came from another chemist in the neighbourhood—there are two empty bottles also that are not mine—I cannot tell now when my bottles were delivered—they contain medicines that I prescribed—I saw Martin at the house two or three times—he came to my house with a note, in consequence of which an ounce of sugarof-lead was made up and delivered to him—I received this letter (produced) from the prisoner by post—I did not see her afterwards about it—it was the same sort of writing as the note Martin brought, signed in the same manner (Marion Taylor)—to the best of my belief this is the prisoner's writing. (This was dated 2nd September, wad expressed surprise that the witness had ceased his attendance, as the old lady was still very bad, and that his bul would be promptly paid.)

Cross-examined. I had attended the prisoner before—she had been in a delicate state of health, suffering from hysterical fits—I can't say who first called me to see Mrs. Tregellis; word was left at my place—I can't say by whom—there was no complaint of an accident, and I saw nothing to draw my attention to an accident—I don't think she complained of her head—the first symptom she complained of was the sickness and cold shivers—there was sallowness of complexion, tenderness of the stomach and abdomen, and costive bowels and perspiration—those are the symptoms of poisoning—the shivering and perspiration I thought might be an attack of ague—she told me before she died that she had white powders all the way through, and I think she had something given to produce it—the perspiration and shivers were consistent with having taken some poison into the system—I should expect it to produce those symptoms; it might have been produced by other causes, so might the sickness and costiveness and blackness of the teeth, but not blueness of the gums—I did not observe that at first; I had no suspicion, and did not look for it—it is a characteristic symptom of lead poisoning—the Symptoms I first observed might be explained by other causes, but not all of them—ague might produce most of them; I thought so myself at first—the public want a diagnosis at once, and you must tell them something, but I had not made up my mind thoroughly—I think if the sallowness was from ague it would require a little more time to produce it—I asked if she had ever had ague before, and she said never—ague would not produce blackness of the teeth; many things might discolour the teeth—I hare

frequently seen it in old people, but it generally comes on by degrees—on the post-mortem the signs of age were very observant—I did not see anything particular about the brain, but from the liver and other organs senile decay was going on—I did not attach any importance to the condition of the teeth at the first visit; I did afterwards—I thought it was trivial—I drew no conclusion from it then—I believe her teeth were sound; she had not lost many—the front teeth were black, the others were dark, but not so black—I attended her daily for the first 11 days; I considered her very seriously ill for an old woman—I was also informed that she had fits—I thought it was an illness from which she might not possibly recover; I thought it a dangerous illness—the prisoner apparently showed her every attention; she was most attentive; more so than I have seen a good many nurses; she seemed to show every sign of kindness—she gave me a description of the vomit; it was muggy weather at the time, warm and damp—they only occupied two rooms—it would no doubt have been very offensive to keep; a bad smell in the room would have been bad for the patient; they might have kept it outside—the symptoms abated, not completely, there was still a history of sickness when I left—sometimes she was worse; I would leave her one day better, and next day she would be so much worse; I could not understand it; I said I must insist on seeing the vomit—I examined the abdomen, and thought we might have some malignant disease to contend with, some cancer or tumour, and I wanted to see what the vomit was like—I thought on 6th September that she was fairly well for a woman of her age recovering from such a severe illness—on the 9th I was called in again; the symptoms had returned—I remained in attendance until the 16th, and then she got fairly well again—I think it was Tregellis called me in the second time, whether at the prisoner's instance I cannot say—I cannot say whether she expressed surprise at seeing me—I think I only saw her once or twice afterwards—I live about a quarter of a mile from their place—I received this letter on the 20th—I did not call again—she never took her medicine, and I thought it was no good attending—I really thought old age was likely to take her off after her illness—the first medicine I gave was a preparation of quinine and bark, the first medicine for ague; I next gave her carbonate of soda and a little hydrocyanic acid and tincture of cardamum, that was to allay the sickness; then carbonate of soda, and aromatic spirits of ammonia and cardamums, and a little digitalis; that was to allay sickness and try to strengthen the heart's action—the pulse was very feeble and intermittent—quinine has a bitter taste and frequently causes dizziness and headache, but not sickness—the active cause of death was paralysis with age—she could not swallow for the last two or three days; the right side had been paralysed about a week—I think the paralysis was caused by lead-poisoning, but it was not what is usually described in books as "dropped wrist;" I did not see that; that is a form of paralysis characteristic of lead-poisoning—she was partially paralysed on 6th October, when I was called in, and she had very little power in her lingers, and she gradually got worse.

Re-examined. There was nothing in my medicine that would discolour the teeth—the stupor was characteristic of lead-poisoning.

ALFRED SHARPS . I am an M. D. and M. R. C. S. of Edinburgh, and practise in Rectory Place, Woolwich—on 9th October I we t to Naylor's

Cottages and saw Mrs. Tregellis—I met Mr. Smith there—I examined Mrs. Tregellis; I found her in a state of great exhaustion—I looked at her mouth and saw a very strongly marked blue line in the gums; that is a sign of lead-poisoning, I know no other cause that would produce it—the hand was extremely tremulous—in my opinion she was suffering from lead-poisoning—that was the only time I saw her alive; I had never sees her before to my knowledge—on the post-mortem on 24th October I noticed the mouth again; I saw the blue line very strongly marked; the teeth were dark; I noticed the extreme yellow tinge of the body, especially the upper part of the trunk; lead-poisoning would produce that—the brain was healthy; the lungs were healthy; there was the usual congested condition of a portion of the lung in a person who had been confined some time to the bed, and there was an undue quantity of serum in the left pleural cavity—the heart was healthy for a person of her age; I speak of all the organs as healthy in a person of her age—the liver healthy; the left small, but no organic disease; the spleen was rather small; the kidneys healthy, but rather small—the stomach contained a portion of fluid food; it was in a healthy condition with the exception of some deeply-marked dark stains in the piloric extremity, that is the part leading into the bowels—the dark stains were in patches on the coat of the stomach—there were one or two little white glistening patches, but I do not attribute any importance to them—there was no inflammation whatever—the bladder was healthy, and partially filled with urine—in more than one of the arteries there was an atheromatous deposit, but that is so common in advanced age that I did not notice it—in my opinion there was nothing in the appearance of the organs to account for death—in my judgment death must have been much accelerated by lead-poisoning—I cut away portions of the brain, lungs, liver, kidneys, and spleen, and the whole of the stomach, placed them in two jars, sealed them up, and gave them to Sergeant Morgan—he brought me a message requesting a larger quantity of those viscera, and I then sent more of the liver and lungs and a portion of the intestine sealed up in the same way, and gave it to Morgan.

Cross-examined. Death from paralysis might or—might not leave a trace in the organs, it would depend upon the character of the paralysis, usually it does; it affects the brain—I did not find the brain affected—at the time of the post-mortem I formed an opinion that the woman had suffered from lead-poisoning, from absorption of lead, whether to the extent of causing death I could not have said positively without an analysis of the viscerathere was not sufficient at that time to lead me to the conclusion as to the cause of death.

Re-examined. I noticed the teeth and the blue line—the blue line is to my mind a certain sign of lead-poisoning, also the black stains on the stomach—I thought it better to have the the organs chemically examined.

By the COURT. I think that lead-poisoning acting upon a woman of her age would be an adequate cause of death.

JOHN SMITH (Re-examined). I have heard Mr. Sharpe's evidence as to the post-mortem; it is correct.

THOMAS STEVENSON , M. D. I am Fellow and Examiner in Chemistry of the Boyal College of Physicians of London, and Lecturer on Chemistry Medical Jurisprudence, of London, and one of the official analysts employed

by the Home Office in these cases—on 26th October I received two jars from Sergeant Morgan—I sent a message by him, and received a third on the 28th—they were internal portions of a body—I analysed them—there were portions of liver weighing 27-Joz.—I did not see any sign of disease there—in one pound of that liver, 16oz, I found 256 of a grain of lead, a little more than a quarter of a grain—the average weight of a whole liver would be about 35oz. for a woman upwards of 80-the lead was in the liver, and I have no doubt it had been absorbed during rife; I have every reason to think it would be absorbed fairly equally throughout the whole liver, therefore the whole would be 56 of a grain, rather more than half a grain—the spleen was of the usual size—it contained a trace only of lead, not enough to estimate the quantity—the kidneys, as would usually be the case in a woman of her age, were wasted in the secreted portions—they were of full average weight for her age, upwards of 80—I found a small quantity of lead there, about one-thousandth of a grain; it was too small to be absolutely sure of the exact quantity—that was in one kidney—the stomach had been cut open, and was empty—I noticed the blackened appearance of it which Mr. Sharpe has described, at the end next the intestine more especially and in streaky patches—that might be due to the lead in the stomach—I analysed half the stomach; I found lead, the '216 of a grain, that is nearly one-half of a grain—I received the other half—I might say that it might not be equally developed over the whole stomach—there was a portion of lung—I examined that, and found a trace of lead, but not enough to estimate the quantity—1 noticed a peculiar appearance, dark slaty patches on the inner or mucous coat of the intestines, which I have several times observed in cases of lead-poisoning—I analysed the darkened portion and the undarkened also—the darkened portion contained lead—I could not detect any in the undarkened—the portion of brain weighed 10oz.—I could not say it was healthy—the arteries were atheromatous—it was quite pulped—the arteries were diseased, as they would be found in old people—I found in 8oz. of the brain 049 of a grain, that is nearly the twentieth part of a grain of lead—I should think it would be probably equal y absorbed over the whole brain—it is found in the nervous system generally—a woman of that age would probably have a brain weighing 40oz.—one-third of the whole would be diseased, 245, or nearly a quarter of a grain—I think that was all the viscera I had—a woman taking sugar-of-lead internally might account fear its presence there—I think the dark condition of the stomach might be due to it, and the appearance of the intestines was entirely in accordance with what 1 have seen in lead-poisoning—acute poisoning by acetate of lead has produced a red colour of the urine—I cannot say that I have observed it myself—a solution of lead coming in contact with this teeth darkens them if it is not washed away—blueneas of the gums is a characteristic of leadpoisoning—it is observed in the great majority of eases where lead has been taken over a lengthened period-—it is not commonly observad after one dose—it has been said that mercury does the same—I have never aeon that myself—I do not think two competent men would be liable to make a mistake upon such a subject, not if they observed with care—if sugar-oflead were given for a time and then Ms administration stopped I should expect sickness would cease, that being one of the symptoms produced by

it—I could not say how long it would take for the lead to be absorbed into the portions I found—I think it must have been given at no distant period before death, and in considerable quantities, probably a month before—if sugar-of-lead is taken in considerable quantities it has a sweetish taste—it is said to be followed by a nauseous sensation and burning in the throat and stomach and frequent vomiting, very great depression, cold perspiration, pain in the region of the stomach, sometimes, not always, tenderness throughout—it may produce looseness of the bowels, but more commonly costiveness, and the motions are often black from the action of the gases in the intestines—it does not affect the mind immediately, but sometimes a kind of semi-stupor has been observed—the symptoms as a rule pass off quickly after one dose—the skin becomes yellow and dingy—I have heard the evidence given in Court—I do not think there was any disease in the organs to account for death—assuming the account given by Mr. Smith and Mr. Sharpe to be correct, I think death was hastened by taking some compound of lead.

Cross-examined. Shivering may or may not exist after the administration of a large dose of sugar-of-lead or any soluble compound of leadit is a symptom of ague also—I am not able to say definitely whether lead in the stomach was taken within a week or a fortnight—it might be given at any time between the time of death and a month or so before—no doubt in large doses a good deal passes along the bowels—a good deal would be rejected by vomiting—some would pass away in the faecal matter, and some would be absorbed into the system—the amount in the stomach was about a quarter of a grain—I think that would indicate a recent dose—I would not say very recent—I think a month would be the extreme limit—I should be surprised to find it was more—I think it improbable—I do not think it improbable that it might have been taken a fortnight before—I have known many cases of paralysis caused by lead-poisoning—generally the muscles are wasted from disuse after death—the peculiar form of paralysis to which you refer is known as "wrist dropping," in which the hand drops and the muscles from disuse become wasted—that is the characteristic form of lead-poisoning.

WILLIAM GUEST CARPENTER . I am surgeon to Her Majesty's Gaol of Clerkenwell, where the prisoner was confined.

Cross-examined. She arrived there on 6th October—the first day I saw her she was very hoarse from cold, and I treated her for that, and she continued taking medicine until she went up for her first remandbetween the first and second remand she complained to me that she was suffering from leucorrhoea—I treated her for it—I gave her tonics and advised her to use warm water externally—she asked me for a syringe, and I gave directions for her to have one to inject an astringent preparation—we generally use sulphate of zinc and alum combined—acetate of lead is used for the same purpose, particularly in the commencement where there is any inflammation—I did not examine her.

JOHN SPARKES . I am a M. R. C. S., and am acting assistant surgeon at Clerkenwell Prison.

Cross-examined. I was present at an examination of the prisoner—she had both external and internal signs of a discharge.



Before Mr. Recorder.

11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-157
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

Related Material

157. JAMES HARTIGAN (36) , Stealing 2 1/2 lb. of beef of James Davis.

MR. A. METCALFE Prosecuted; MR. BESLEY Defended.

THOMAS DAVIS . I keep the Earl of Beaconsfield public-house, Alpha Road, Deptford—my brother George is a builder, at 257, Southwark Park Road—I did not know the prisoner before November 24th—1 know now that he is a police constable—on the night of 26th November Fern and I secreted ourselves in a loft. on my brother's premises—there is a window there through which we could see very clearly—the pantry is about 15 feet from the window—you can see more clearly from the door—the gate is in Bombay Street, about 15 feet from the pantry, which is between the loft and the gate—from that loft we could see any person coming in at the gate—I had previously marked three pieces of meat with a cross, by sticking a knife right through, so that if anybody cut a piece off they could not cut it out, and I rubbed it over with fat—about 1.30 I was looking from the door, saw a constable look in at the gate and go away again, and again about 2 o'clock, and about 4 o'clock the gate opened, and I saw an arm put through and remove the bar and throw the gate wide open, and then I saw a constable, the prisoner, come in on tip-toe; it was moonlight and I could see his face and his number, 62—he caught hold of the pantry door, which moves on rolling wheels, and rocked it about three inches, then looked up at the loft, and then pulled it three more inches; he then pulled it a third time and walked into the pantry—he came out in about three minutes and looked bulky behind—he had his bull's-eye lantern—he went out and closed the door behind him, but left the pantry door undone—I went into the pantry and missed two ribs of beef, about 1 1/2 lb., which I bad marked—I followed him in about four minutes, and seeing a constable on the other side of the road I thought he was the person, but he was not, and I went to the end of Bombay Street, to a dark corner, and ran up to the prisoner and said "I want that beef you have got"—he said "You won't have it; that is my supper"—I saw the same number again—I said "You are eating my meat"—it was cooked—another constable came up and I gave the prisoner in charge going to the station he ate every bit of it and threw away the bones—it was worth about 1s.

Cross-examined. I have been fined two or three times for interfering with the police in execution of their duty—it is some 12 years ago, and I got summoned 10 years ago for fast riding—that is the latest time I was fined in Bermondsey—I was fined in the City six years ago, but not since—I did not call the police scamps or blackguards, or say that they ought to be treated with the contempt I treat them with—I had not been in the loft for two years—there was no fire or light, only moonlight—we cleaned the window with a bit of dry sacking—we had a pipe and a little brandy—we talked, but not loud—I said that the pantry is about 15 feet from the loft—I do not think it is 15 yards, or 12; it is not more than 15 or 16 feet—I do not think I have said before to-day that the policeman looked bulky behind—I took a piece of boiled beef from the pantry to the police-court

as a specimen of my marking—I did not exhibit it as the piece from which the beef had been stolen, until the prisoner's daughter proved that the prisoner had roast beef for his supper—I took it to the Court to show that he had cut a bit of fat off the boiled beef to go with the roast—the beef stolen weighed about 2 1/2 lb., meat and bone together—the bone weighed about 1lb.—it took him 10 or 12 minutes to eat the meat—he said when I met him in this place "I have not been down your yard "—I did not say "I, thought it was another policeman, but I think it is you "—I had spoken to another policeman, and I told my friend to fetch him—the prisoner did not say "You had better mind what you are about; you are making a mistake, "nor did I say u Oh, that be d——d! come along "—I said that I had lost a lot of raw meat—I was not asked while the charge was being taken, if I had seen the constable's number, nor did I say "I could not see his number"—I said that I could see a pin on the ground at 20 yards, it was such a beautiful night—I have heard that the prisoner has been 16 years in the force, but he is only a third-class man now.

Re-examined. There was 1 1/2 lb. of meat and 1lb. of bone—as he picked the bones he threw them on one side and I picked them up.

EDWARD FERN . I am a traveller, of 291, Denton Road—I was with Davis in the loft—I saw the constable look in about 2 or 3 o'clock, and at 4 o'clock he looked in again and shut the door, and came in again, and put his arm and body through, and came in on tip-toe and looked at the parlour of the house to see if anybody was there—he then opened the pantry door, looked round, and entered—we could just see the reflection of the light moving about in the pantry from the window—he came out, closed the pantry door after him and the big gates, and walked away—I had seen four pieces of meat marked with a cross—I then went into the pantry and missed two beef bones with a little beef on them, and a little bit of the salt beef was cut—I went out into the street, and went up to Constable Hudson—after speaking to him I went on, and about 200 yards farther on came upon the prisoner standing in a bye corner of Bombay Street eating something—as soon as he heard us he came out with the meat in his left hand and a knife in his right—I fetched two policemen and told them to take the meat from him, as it was stolen; but they allowed him to eat it all the way to the station, and throw the bones away—I saw his face, but I could not see his number through the glass.

Cross-examined. It was not ground glass—the ground gloss was in the pantry window—I was concerned once before Mr. Benson in a charge against a man named Nichols—I was only there once—the Magistrate did not say that he would not believe me on my oath; nothing of the sort—I was in the loft over four hours—we both went there together—the prisoner did not say that he had not been down the yard, nor did Davis say "I thought it was another policeman, but I think it was you"—he did not say that he had been up to another policeman—I was not sleeping at all; I was looking out at the window the whole time.

By the JURY. There is no fastening to the pantry door—two bones were found in the street and two little bits.

GEORGE HUDSON (Policeman IF 97). On 27th November, about 4 a.m. Davis spoke to me and went away—I was fetched shortly afterwards to take the prisoner—he was eating meat, and was given into my charge for

stealing meat—I asked him for it—he said "It is my supper"—I knew that it was part of the meat he was charged with stealing, but I did not take it from him—he threw the bones in the road and Davis picked them up and brought them to the station.

Cross-examined. I had been a fortnight or three weeks on that beat—I often see constables on duty eating meat and cheese at night—it is usual for them to carry meat out for their supper—there if no fastening to these gates, but a bit of a catch, and I often find the gates open—they first came up to me, and Davis said "Have you been in our yard?"—I was then 20 or 30 yards from the pantry, just across the road—I said "What yard is that?"—he said "Davis's, over the way "—I said "No"—he said "Well, one of your men has"—it was roast beef which the prisoner was eating—he walked 200 yards before he finished—I was not there when he was accosted by Davis—an hour and a half or two hours afterwards, and before daylight, I examined the premises—the window was very dirty and black—I cannot say that it bad been cleaned; it did not look clean—you can see the pantry door from the loft, but you cannot see inside. Re-examined. I did not go inside the loft, but I know what can be seen from it because it was shown to me.

Witnesses for the Defence.

THOMAS BIGGS (Police Sergeant M). I have been seventeen years in the force—about 4.30 on this Monday morning I was acting inspector when the prisoner was brought in in custody—he had been on duty the night before—he has been under my observation since June last, and has behaved himself very well—he came from the Borough Station—Davis made the charge—I asked him who had been there—he said "A policeman"—I said "Did you see his number?"—he said "No"—I said "Where was he?" he said "In the pantry"—I asked whether he confronted him in the pantry—he said "No"—I said "Why not?—he said "Because I was told not to"—I said "By whom?"—he did not speak—I said "Did you see him go out at the gate?"—he said "Yes "—the prisoner said "I was eating my supper "—Fearn was present, but he had nothing to say.

Cross-examined. Davis said that he never lost sight of the prisoner, and that he did not see his number—two reserve men were present, but they are not here—Davis said that the loft was 15 feet off.

By the COURT. The real measurement is about 12 yards, about 14 paces.

KATE HARTIGAN . I am the prisoner's daughter, and live with him and my mother—on the day before my father was charged we had roast beef for dinner—my mother used to put his supper up for him when he went on duty, and I have done so also—he goes on duty at 9.30 and does not come back till 6.

Cross-examined. Nobody spoke to me about this charge—my mother has not told me what to say—I went to bed at 6 o'clock that night with a bad faceache, and my father had. not gone out then; whether anything was put up for him I don't know; 1 did not put anything up for him that night.

Re-examined. My mother never let my father go out without his supper—there was no meat in the house but roast beef.

PETER HARNETT (Police Superintendent). I have bean a superintendent

more than three years—I was superintendent of the M Division, and was an inspector at Clerkenwell—I have only know the prisoner two jean; he has been a year and a half with me—he has been sixteen years in the force—he behaved himself fairly well in my district—he has committed some acts against police discipline—he has been reported for being drunk and for being absent from his beat about twelve months ago—I did not see it; I only had the evidence of two officers who saw him—since that he has been reported for being absent 15 minutes from his beat, and also for being 45 minutes absent from his beat—that was six months ago—he gave an explanation, but it was not satisfactory, and I removed him to another station—there is no imputation against his honesty, or he would not have been retained in the service for a moment—he has the reputation of being a thoroughly honest man for 16 years—he is a third-class man—he was reduced for being drunk, when two other officers said so.

GUILTY .— Twelve Months' Hard Labour.

Before Robert Malcolm Kerr, Esq.

11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-158
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

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158. ROBERT TULLETT (19) PLEADED GUILTY to stealing 15l., the moneys of Frederick Morgan, having been before convicted.— Two Years Hard Labour,

Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-159
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

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159. ALFRED NOBLE PACEY (62) , Indecently assaulting Charlotte Harris, a girl under the age of 13 years.

MR. PURCELL Prosecuted; MR. LILLEY Defended.

GUILTY. Nine Months' Hard Labour.

11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-160
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour; Imprisonment > hard labour

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160. GEORGE RUSSAN (30) and FREDERICK PRINCE (32) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.

MR. GOODRICH Prosecuted.

WILLIAM BLOWER . I am ten years old, and live with my parents at 7, Providence Road, Waterloo Road—on Saturday night, 2nd December, I was in Lower Marsh; Russan came up to me and said "If you will go and fetch me a quarter of a pound of shilling butter I will give you a halfpenny; I will wait for you"—he pointed to Mr. Alder's shop, and gave me a half-crown—I' went over and asked for the butter and gave the half-crown to the woman in the shop, and Mr. Alder came and stopped me—I pointed out Russan as having given me the money—Prince was with him and he walked away.

Cross-examined by Prince. I did not notice that you had an apron on—I did not see you speak to Russan—I do not know that the man had a bag on his shoulder.

ANNIE ALDER . My husband is a cheesemonger, of 20, Lower Marsh—on this night, shortly after 11 o'clock, Blower came in and handed me a half-crown, which I handed to my husband.

WILLIAM ALDER . My wife brought me a half-crown, and I went into the shop, spoke to Blower, and went with him to the street—he pointed out Russan, who was standing 20 or 30 yards from the shop with a short man similar to Prince—they moved off sharply, and turned round James street—I spoke to a constable, who followed them, and came back and fetched the boy, and went round the other end of the street—I went with them, stopped Russan, and gave him into custody—I asked the boy

in his presence if he was the man who handed him the money; he said ii Yes "—Prince moved away sharply, and escaped.

Cross-examined by Prince. I only saw your back—you had no bag on your shoulder—you had no whiskers.

FREDERICK MOON (Policeman L 219). On this night Alder gave Bussan into my custody with this half-crown—he said nothing in answer to the charge—I found on him at the station 5s. 3d. in silver, 10 1/2 d. in bronze, and a pocket-knife—Sheppard handed me this second half-crown.

WILLIAM SHEPPARD . I am an assistant to Mr. Alder, of Lower Marsh, a cheesemonger—on thin night I went with Mr. Alder and Blower into the street, and saw the two prisoners standing about two paces from each other—Prince had a white apron on—I did not see his face—he was a short man, and decamped as soon as Bussan was taken—I next saw Prince at the police-court on Monday morning, to the best of my belief—I thought he was the same man—I took hold of Bussan when I came up—he said "You might let me go, old man; it won't make any difference to you, and I shall get off"—I had him by his right sleeve—he was fumbling about with his left hand in his trousers pocket—I went to the shop, and then back to the place a little after 1 o'clock, when I found this half-crown—I put a mark on it, and gave it to the constable—it was lying in the middle of the road, about a stride and a half from the kerb.

Cross-examined by Russan. My master was not holding you by one sleeve and I by the other—my master got hold of you at first, and said "Hold him, Bill"—I seized your right arm, and he went and called a constable who was coming round the. turning—you did not resist at all—you had the opportunity of throwing the other half-crown away.

Cross-examined by Prince. You wore a white apron rolled up round your waist—you had a moustache—I never saw you to recognise you by your general features.

JESSIE BATES . I am the wife of Henry Bates, the landlord of the New Halfway beerhouse, Webber street, Blackfriars—on Saturday night, 2nd December, at 11.55, Prince came in for half a pint of beer, and tendered a counterfeit half-crown, which I handed to my husband, who said "Where did you get this from? have you got any more?" the prisoner said "I do not know what you mean"—a constable was fetched, and he was given in custody—he said he had just left off work—before the constable came he said he had just come from Dover—he had a white apron on, rather dirty, and looked as if he had been at work.

Cross-examined by Prince. I picked up the half-crown and drew the beer—another young man with an overcoat came in, and asked for a glass of beer—you came in almost together—it was just before closing time—he tendered sixpence—I thought he was with you, but when 1 came back with the constable I saw he was a customer.

HENRY BATES . I keep the New Halfway beerhouse, Webber Street, Blackfriars—I was in the bar—my wife brought me a half-crown, and I asked Prince where he got it from, and if he had any more—he said "I do not know what you mean"—I said "Charlie, put that bar up to the front door," and he closed the door, and I sent my wife for a constable—another young man came in with a pilot coat on, and asked the prisoner f he had left off work, and he said "Yes, I have"—the young man said

"I do not see why I should stay here"—I said "You won't go without you can get me away from this door "—he said "I do not wish to go"Prince said "I am not going to stay; I have done nothing"—I said "You will have to stop until a constable comes "—a constable came, and I gave Prince in custody.

Cross-examined by Prince. I sent back from the station for your apron, which the constable had taken off to search you.

WILLIAM LAW (Policeman L 40). Mr. Bates gave Prince into my custody with this half-crown—I searched him, and found a shilling, and 2 1/2 d. in bronze—he had a white apron on, as if he had just left off work—I said "How did that come in your possession"—he said "I do not know, I came from Dover "—he took his apron off while I searched him.

Cross-examined by Prince. The boy was brought in to identify you at the station—you were placed between some others—he said it was a taller man—I do not remember his saying that the coat came half way down his legs.

WILLIAM JOHN WEBSTER . I am assistant examiner of coins to Her Majesty's Mint—these three half-crowns are bad.

Russan handed in a written defence stating that he sent the boy in for the butter with the half-crown, not knowing it was bad, and that he knew nothing about the one found in the road; that he had been selling celery all day, and might have taken the half-crown from somebody.

Prince's Defence. I do not know this man. I arrived from Dover on Saturday morning, and changed half a sovereign at Canterbury, and one at Dover, and then I had silver in my pocket, and when I arrived in London I paid for my lodgings. About 11 o'clock I was in Oxford Street.

GUILTY . RUSSAN.— Twelve Months' Hard Labour. PRINCE.— Six Months' Hard Labour.

11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-161
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

Related Material

161. DANIEL GUBBINS (40) , Unlawfully uttering a medal resembling a half-sovereign, with intent to defraud.

MR. GOODRICH Prosecuted.

FRANCIS TUCKER . I keep the New Barge beerhouse, Canal Bank, Peckham—about 11.30 a.m. on 12th October the prisoner came in for a pint of beer, and tendered this coin, which I took for a half-sovereign—I gave him 9s. 10d.—I said "Give me back my change, and take this coin or half-sovereign back to Mr. Sheppard," who he said he got it from for his wages—he said "You have got it, and you will have to keep it. I have got the change," and went out, and before I could get my assistant downstairs to go after him he was out of sight—I identified him at Kennington Lane Police-station next day—he said he had half a sovereign and a shilling for his wages—I gave the medal to the policeman.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. I told you it was a bad one at once—I showed you the difference between this and a good half-sovereign—I left the bad one on the bar—I used to keep brass tickets for beer for working men, but I left it off a fortnight ago.

WILLIAM HIPGRAVE (Police Sergeant P 25). On 12th October I took the prisoner for being drunk and disorderly and assaulting—he was charged on the 13th October with uttering this medal—he said "I got a halfsovereign from Mr. Shepperd, 101, Bermondsey New Road on the 11th"—I found 4s. in silver, and 8d. in bronze on him—on 23rd November I rearrested him on his leaving Wandsworth Prison and charged him with

this offence—on the way to the Court he said "I got it from, Mr. Sheppard "—he repeated that several times on the way to the Court.

WILLIAM CONEY . I live at 477, Liverpool Road, Islington, and am cashier to Mr. Sheppard, a builder, of 101, Bermondsey New Road—the prison was in his employ—on 11th October I paid him his wages, 9s. in silver and 4d. in copper—I paid him no gold, I am sure—I remember it by paying him in the afternoon when all was quiet in the office—the matter was called to my remembrance a fortnight after.

Cross-examined. I am not certain of the hour I paid you, but I know it was before the evening—I did not ask if you had any change, and I did not give you a half-sovereign and 4d., you giving me a shilling—I didnot look in a drawer; I do not keep my money in a drawer, but in my pocket in a bag.

WILLIAM JOHN WEBSTER . This coin is a card-counter—the German arms are on one side and the English on the Other—it is of no value.

The Prisoner'8 Statement before the Magistrate. "That man stated false. I did give him a shilling, and he gave me half a sovereign and 4 1/2 d., and if he recollects himself he won't swear false. "

The prisoner, in his defence, said that Coney had sworn falsely; that he paid him a half-sovereign and 4d. and he gave him a shilling change.

GUILTY **. —Nine Months' Hard Labour.

Before Mr. Recorder.

11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-162
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

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162. ARTHUR BAGLEY (20) PLEADED GUILTY to a burglary in the dwelling-house of Joseph Eldridge, and stealing a shawl, his property. —Four Months Hard Labour.

11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-163
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty; Not Guilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

Related Material

163. JOHN HOPKINS (26) and THOMAS HOPKINS (26), Feloniously forging and uttering an endorsement on a cheque for 34l. 18s. 5d., with intent to defraud, Thomas Hopkins having been before convicted, to which THOMAS HOPKINS PLEADED GUILTY .

MR. POLAND Prosecuted.

JOSEPH WRIGHT COURTHORNE . I keep the Grosvenor Arms, George Street, Grosvenor Square—I have known the prisoner John three years—he was living in the mews in North Audley Street—these three cheques for 5l. on 17th March, for. 24l. 1s. 2d. on 28th June, and 34l. 18s. 3d. on 18th September, bear the endorsement of the Siemen's Heating and Lighting Company—I cashed them for the prisoner John about the time of their dates, and I have changed five or six other cheques for him; he said it was all right, and I believe he said that his father was a big man in the Company—he told me that a relative had died and left him some money and his brother and sisters—I could not give him all the money the last time, but gave him part on account and the rest next day—the cheques were crossed, and 1 gave them to our collectors when they called.

Cross-examined by John Hopkins. I never knew you spend money recklessly—you owed me 2s. 3d. for a dinner or two, and I said "Shall I deduct what you owe me?"you saidu No, the cheque does not belong to me "—you said it was from the same place, and I should find it as right as the other.

WILLIAM GREG . I keep the Arun Arms, New Bond Street—I have

known the prisoner John some time—in April he brought me a cheque dated April 22 for 7l. 10s. on the London and County Bank—I asked who it was for, and I think he said for his uncle—he said "You will find it all right, the manager has endorsed it"—I gave him the change—I cashed one or two other cheques for him when he was next door to me—travellers used to send in for change, and that led me to cash this cheque.

Cross-examined. I understood you it was for your uncle—I refused to change a dozen cheques for you, and told you to take them somewhere else, as you only came when you wanted change.

EDWARD FINDER . I keep the Globe, North Audley Street—on 16th October the prisoner John brought this cheque for 16l. 12s. 8d. dated October 13—he said "It is the Sunlight Company, you will find it correct; I said I would pay it into the bank, and if he would wait three days I would give it him; he did so—I paid it in, it was cashed all right, he called the third day, and I gave him the full change.

WILLIAM ALFRED LA MUDE . I am clerk to Mr. Maughan, of 41, Cheapside—he owed this company 4l. 15s.—the prisoner Thomas called for it—I gave him this crossed cheque for 5l. on the London and County Bank, payable to the company or order—he gave me this receipt.

MATTHEW HENRY KITE . I was bookkeeper in April to Mr. Baxter, of Edward's Place, Aldersgate Street—he owed the company 7l. 10s., and on 22nd April I gave this crossed cheque for 7l. 10s. to a person who gave this receipt.

FREDERICK HENRY JOHNS . I am clerk to Thomas Irving and Co., of 17, Gracechurch Street—they owed the company 24l. 1s. 2d. in Junesome one called for payment and I gave him this crossed cheque for 24l. 4s. 2d.; a receipt was given.

MR. NEVILL. I am clerk to Mr. Alchin, of the Globe Works, Northampton—he owed the company 34l. 18s. 5d., and I sent this cheque to the company's office, in London—it is on the Northampton Bank, and crossed" and Co. "—I afterwards received a receipt.

FRANCIS CALLAN . I am a land agent in Midhurst, Sussex—I sent to this company this cheque for 16l. 12s. 8d. on the Midhurst Branch of the London and County Bank; it was crossed "and Co. "—I got a receipt after some delay.

CHARLES EDWARD HEARSON . I am manager to the Anti-Pneumatic Heating and Lighting Company—the prisoner Thomas was clerk to Mr. Goodwin, our accountant and auditor—he used to work in our office and had access to the letters—the endorsements "Charles E. Hearson, manager," to these cheques purport to be my signature, but to the best of my belief they are the prisoner Thomas's writing—he had no authority to endorse cheques—I have seen his receipts for most of them—the money has not been accounted for—John Hopkins called at the office once, and the second time he came he brought a note for his brother.

Cross-examined. I think you have usually come when your brother was absent—I don't think I have seen you when he was there—when Mr. Goodwin is in town he collects money from the company, and as a rule the letters are sent to his office in Cheapside—cheques were all paid to his bank, but they were all brought to me for signature—if there is any cheque not bearing my signature it is a forgery—when he paid them in he drew me a cheque deducting so much for commission and other money.

Re-examined Mr. Goodwin had no authority to endorse or to use my name—these endorsements are in the same way as I endorse cheques.

ARTHUR COX (Policeman). I took Thomas Hopkins on 20th November, and on 1st December I took John, and told him he would be charged with uttering a cheque which had been forged by his brother—he said "I am innocent; I never had a farthing of the money"—after the charge was read he said "I cashed the cheque at the house; I did not know they were stolen or a fraud; I might say this, that I knew the endorsement was in my brother's writing, but he gave me to understand that he had authority to do so"—he gave evidence before the Magistrate about an 18l. cheque, and was afterwards given in custody.

John Hopkins's Statement before the Magistrate. "I knew the endorse ment was my brother's; he told me so. I never had any of the money".

Witnesses for the Defence. RICHARD STEPHENS (Detective Sergeant M). I took John Hopkins at the Castle—he acknowledged having cashed the cheque, and said that his brother gave him to understand that he had authority to do so, and that he was authorised to put Mr. Hearson's name on the back—I said "Who is Mr. Courlthorne, he has cashed some as well?"—he said "Yes. "

THOMAS HOPKINS (The Prisoner). I have pleaded guilty to this charge—I endorsed these cheques and gave them to my brother—he said "How is it you endorse them?"—1 said "I have Mr. Hearson's authority to do it, as Mr. Goodwin is away, and-the company being very hard pressed for money, don't feel justified in paying them into Mr. Goodwin's account as he instructed me to do, as they want the balance after I have deducted certain charges due to Mr. Goodwin. "

Cross-examined. I was employed at Mr. Goodwin's at 30s. a week—my brother knew that—I have given him between 15 and 20 cheques to cash, and one was as much as 50l.—I did nut ask him where he got them cashed—I was convicted in August, 1873, of larceny as a servant, and hadthree months' imprisonment—my brother knew that—he never came to the company's office when I was at work there—I took some of the cheques from country letters, and being crossed I had to get them cashed; in other cases I went about collecting the money; the company knew of it—my brother was employed last at Harding's woollen ware house, Bond Street, and for a short time at a warehouse in Brushfield Street, but he never had anything to do with money matters—when we were first called in to audit the Siemen's Company's books they were in a fearful state—the company did not know how they stood, and I handed Mr. Goodwin a list of debts to collect, and out of what was collected we deducted any costs or charges we had against the company, and they never gave Mr. Goodwin a cheque for three years, and when he went to America I represented to my brother that I had certain costs to deduct for Mr. Goodwin.

By the COURT. Mr. Goodwin went away last December, and if I had paid those cheques in, nobody had power to draw out what was due to him, and the company did not know how to meet their bills from month to month—I told my brother so, and the amount being large rather goes to prove his innocence, because he would know that the company could not be deprived of such large amounts.

By the JURY. He has been out of employment about 18 months, and I have been giving him 1s. or 2s. to find him the necessaries of life, but never led him to understand that it was for services rendered—his father gives him some assistance—he gave me every farthing of the cheques.

John Hopkins, in his defence, stated that his brother led hint to believe that he had authority to endorse the cheques, Mr. Goodwin having gone to America, and that it was necessary to cash the cheques, instead of paying them in, to deduct the expenses and pay in the balance only; that he had not received a penny for what he had done, and that it was true that he had come into money lately.


THOMAS HOPKINS— Five Years' Penal Servitude.

11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-164
VerdictNot Guilty > no evidence

Related Material

164. JOHN HOPKINS was further charged upon four other indictments with forging and uttering endorsements to orders for the payment of money, upon which MR. POLAND offered no evidence.


Before Mr. Justice Stephen.

11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-165
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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165. PATRICK McLEAN (28) , Feloniously shooting at Bryan Coupland with intent to murder him.

MESSRS. POLAND and WILLIAMS Prosecuted. THOMAS JONES. I am a leather-dresser, of 4, West Street, Bermondsey—on 14th November, about 11.45 p.m., I was in the Spa Tavern, Bermondsey, and saw the prisoner there with a friend, who said, "Where is your parcel?"—the prisoner said, "In that room"—the other man said, "I should not leave it there, in case you might lose it"—I said, "No, I should not care about leaving it there myself"—the prisoner said, "That is all right"—I said, "Iam very glad to think you have got the opinion of the Bermondsey people which you have"—he said, "Well, I have a good opinion," and put his hand in his trousers pocket and said, "If I had seen anybody take the parcel, do you know what I should have done?"—I said, "I don't know"—he pulled out a revolver and said, "I should pop them off like that," putting it to my face—it was about 6 inches long and bright like silver—I said, "Don't put that in my face again, or I will have you put somewhere else; you will bear in mind you are not in a foreign country now, you are in a civilised country"—he then left the house saying, "You shall have your gaff blown off"—I said, "Good night, old man," and saw no more of him till he was at the police-court.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. I had never seen you before—I have never seen the other man since—the inspector fetched me to the station—I swear to you—you had had a drop of beer, but you were not drunk.

BRYAN COUPLAND . I am a leather dresser, of Bermondsey—on 15th November, about 1 a.m., I was in Dunkley Road, about 30 yards from the Spa Tavern, and saw the prisoner ahead of me—I did not know him before—I overtook him, and he said "Where are you going?"—I said "I am going home, up this way"—he came alongside me, and spoke about the weather till we got through the arches in Station Road about 20 yards—he then got me by my left hand, gave me a turn round, so as to bring my face to him, and said "I believe you are the man," drew a revolver, pointed it at my head, and fired—I bent my head, and it missed me—I told him not to be a fool, and tried to coax him—he walked across the road in the direction I was going 20

or 30 yards, and when we got to the door of my house, knowing I could get assistance there, I seized him and threw him—he drew the revolver again, and would have fired if I had not seized his wrist—a constable came up and took the revolver from him—he was perfectly sober.

Cross-examined. You did not draw the pistol out and tell me that you had been trying to sell it during the day for 1l., and would take 15s. for it—you stood about three yards from the wall, upon which a mark has been found—the road is only six yards wide, and this was at the edge of the pavement—I have seen a mark on the wall, and can swear that it is a bullet mark—after you had fired you put the pistol down by your side for a moment or two, and then put it in your pocket—you did not explain to me that as long as the ramrod was pushed into the empty barrel the cylinder could not revolve, nor did you say "Now we have come to the empty part of the street I will fire one barrel, "nor did I say 11 Don't be a fool; the police will be coming," and catch hold of your wrist and call "Police!"—I wore a round bat. (The last witness was here placed by the side of this witness with his hat on. One man was a good deal taller than the other, but their hats were alike.) My house is about 30 yards from the arch.

By the JURY. The prisoner had no parcel with him—I seized him about 30 yards from where the shot was fired.

HENRY TREACHER (Policeman). About 1.5 a.m. on 15th November I heard the report of firearms and a call for assistance—I ran down Dunkley Street and saw the prisoner on his back, and Coupland on top of him, and the revolver glittering in his hand in the lamp-light—I caught hold of his right wrist and took this revolver (torn, him—Coupland let him get up and then gave him in charge for shooting at him—he said "I did not shoot at you; I fired on the ground to show you how it went off"—the Inspector examined it at the station—four chambers were loaded with ball cartridge, and there was one empty case—I found seven ball cartridges in the prisoner's right waistcoat pocket—directly after the charge was taken I went with the Inspector to the place pointed out, and we found a hole in the wall about 7 feet 6 inches from the ground, as though it had been struck by a bullet—it was a dark blue mark—the prisoner was rather unsteady in his voice, as if he had been drinking—these certificates were found on him. (These were certificates of good conduct on board ships in H. M. Navy, and of his discharge from the Osprey on November 3rd, 1882.) The prosecutor was perfectly sober.

Cross-examined. The bullet mark was 27 feet in a right line from where Coupland stood: and I found 144 feet from there this bullet smashed up (produced)—it could not have rebounded and struck the wall; it was evidently direct—the place where Coupland stood was about 150 yards from where 1 saw the two men on the ground—I heard the cry of "Police!" two or three minutes after the report, because I had got to Dunkley Road before I heard the cry—the mark was a little round hole similar to what a bullet would make—none of the brick was broken away; it went between the joints of the bricks and broke the mortal?—you could have pulled the trigger again before I came up, but you could not have fired at Coupland, because he had got both your arms pinned down.

BRYAN COUPLAND (Re-examined by the Prisoner). I dare say you would have fired a second shot if I had not held you—you were not pointing out that the ramrod was in the empty cylinder—I tried to coax you after

you fired, and said that you had better give it to me—you did not say that it was loaded, and you never allowed it out of your hand—on my oath your only words were about the cold weather—the ramrod must have been out of the empty chamber, or the pistol could not have been fired.

DAVID WILLIAMS (Police Inspector M). When the prisoner was brought to the station he made a statement, which I took down and he signed it—he was in an excited state from drink, as it appeared, but he was not drunk—the revolver was loaded in four chambers with ball cartridge, and there was a case in one which had been discharged—the ramrod was out—I made this rough sketch (produced) of the place which has been pointed out to me—the mark on the wall was 27 feet from where the men were on the ground, and 44 feet from where the bullet was founds I have also marked the place where the prisoner tells me he lived. (Statement read: "I have not done anything wrong. In going through the archway I did not know a word this man said. I know I was wrong in having a loaded revolver with me. I fired it off intentionally at the ground close to my feet, but not at the man. I never saw the man in my life before.—Patrick M'Lean")

The Prisoner's Statement before the Magistrate. "All I wish to say is when I fired the pistol I could have nicked him had I wished. I was explaining it to him and he seized me by the wrist and gave me in charge for shooting at him. "

The prisoner in his defence stated that he brought the revolver from Egypt and took it out in the morning to try to sell it, but could not; and that he was showing it to Coupland and fired one barrel at the pavement to explain its action;, that being a first-rate shot he could have "nicked" him had he wished, and con tended that the mark on the wall was not a bullet mark, as it would have embed ded itself or dropped downt and not flown back 44 feet.


11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-166
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > hard labour

Related Material

166. PATKICK M' LEAN was again indicted for unlawfully assaulting the said Bryan Coupland.

The prosecutor's evidence in the previous case was read over, and stated by him to be correct.

GUILTY .— Twelve Months' Hard Labour.

Before Mr. Recorder.

11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-167
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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167. GEORGE WILLIAM CHILDERS (41) , Unlawfully obtaining by false pretences from Harry Hough the sum of 34l. with intent to defraud. Other Counts for obtaining other moneys from other persons by false pretences, with intent to defraud.

MR. CHARLES MATHEWS Prosecuted; MR. BESLEY Defended. HARRY HOUGH. I am a clerk of 65, Trinity Street, Borough—on 12th September last my attention was called to this advertisement in the Daily Telegraph: "30l. wanted for one month only, promissory note for 35l. and good security deposited. Address, Mr. Rawlinson, care of Bewick, Stationer, Eyre Street, Golden Square. "In consequence of that I wrote to the address, stating that I should be pleased to advance—I received this reply, asking for interview next morning at 10.15—that and another appointment which was made were not kept, but upon the 14th Septem ber the prisoner came to my premises between 6 and 7 p.m.—he presented to me this card: "Mr. G. W. Childers, Holbrook House, Canterbury Road, Brixton "—he said he called respecting my letter in answer to an advertisement in the paper, and that he required a loan of 30l.—he

pulled a lot of papers from his pocket, which I found were pawnbrokers' documents—he then produced the card and paid "I am a diamond merchant and dealer, and I want the sum of 30l. as I am short of money, and have been obliged to pledge some of my stock to raise the amount"—he then showed me the pawnbrokers' contract notes, and two sheets of foolscap with copies of the contract notes upon them—we examined them both together—this is one of the documents (produced)—he said "I shall offer to you as security these contract notes for the sum that I require, and I will also give you a promissory note as to when the amount is to be paid, a month from date "—I asked him if the goods were all new, he said "Tee, they are; they are pledged from my stock"—I asked him if the jewellery was pledged to the full amount—he said "No, you cannot get goods pledged for the full amount, they are pledged for about a third of their value "—I then agreed to lend him 30l.—this list of documents relating to diamonds, &c, pawned was before me—I advanced him 14l., taking his receipt on the back of this card, and this is the promissory note—he said he was temporarily pressed, and he had an order for a diamond bracelet from a sea captain, and it required the sum of 120l. to purchase it, though he could not ask his customer for the money, and therefore pledged his stock to raise the amount, and he was obliged to borrow the money upon the duplicates—before he left he deposited the nine duplicates disclosed in the list—I believed the state ments he made—mid-day on 15th he returned—I handed him 16l. in an envelope, making up the 30l. of the promissory note—on 18th September I received this letter from him (Asking for an appointment at half-past I)—on that day he came to my residence—he said he wanted to know whether I could advance him 40l. more, and he would give me a promissory note for 50l.—I said I had not the money with me, but would endeavour to do my best for him—he then asked me whether I had a few pounds with me, and I gave him 4l., all that I had—he gave me a promissory note for 50l., and four contract notes, and he was to call the next day to receive the balance, 36l.—upon 19th September he came in the evening—I told him I had not the amount, but would endeavour to do my best for him—I had several interviews with him after that—on 9th October he called at my house, and in conversation I told him I could not the raise the amount he required, 40l.—I therefore gave him back his promissory note for 50l., as I said it was no use my keeping it—I believe he destroyed it—I then also handed him a pawnbroker's contract note, and he gave me a security for 40l., of which I had advanced 4l., 36l. being due, and he took some securities away—on 16th October he came and asked me whether I could lend him a few pounds, and he presented this gold watch to me—I asked him how much he required, and he said 9l., and he would give me 1l. for the use of it and repay me on the Saturday—I said I had not it with me, but I would see whether I could borrow it for him—he then left—the next day I gave the watch to a party to offer in pledge, and the same evening he returned—I said I had not the money and could not get it for him, so I would return him his watch—by this time the promissory note for 35l. had become due—it was presented, and dishonoured—I received this letter from the prisoner of 30th October (Stating that he had not received money promised him, inclosing bill for renewal, with 5l. bonus)—I sub sequently wrote to the prisoner several times at Brixton—I received several replies—I met him, and had interviews with him—he has never paid

me one penny of the 30l.—finding I could not get the money I redeemed the diamond pledged at Harrison's, in Wardour Street, for 2l. 15s.—I inquired the price of a gentleman, who valued it at 25s.—I tried to dis pose of it—I offered it to Harrison's ten days afterwards—I tried to re pledge it for the original duplicate—I was not successful—I then made inquiries with regard to the otheer articles—in result I determined to redeem none of them—eventually I applied for a warrant.

Cross-examined by MR. BESLEY. That is my writing at the bottom of the other half of the piece of foolscap—I did not take particular notice if the amounts of the tickets were correct; I was satisfied at the time—I checked some of them in the list—I do not think I said at the police court "I checked them all "—my list does not contain the amounts of the nine tickets—the single-stone diamond ring for 15l. was pledged at Robert Attenborough's, at Manchester Square, on 12th September—the gentleman's gold lever watch and gold albert chain for 10l. at Wilson's, 253, Goswell Road; the ruby and sapphire ring for 10l. 10s., the brilliant locket and miniature brooch for 20l. with E. A. Barker, of Houndsditch—those were pledges for raising the 30l. at Barker's on 8th September, 1882—the 17-stone brilliant horseshoe pin was pawned for 7l. on 12th September, and also the three brilliant studs for 6l., and the half-hoop diamond ring for 5l. 10s., all with Levy, of Mile End Road—the diamond and ruby bracelet and the diamond and sapphire ring for 17l. 10s. were pawned with William Smith on 11th September, and the cat's-eye ring for 10l. 10s.—that represents the raising of 102l. upon the property pawned—I was not aware that if property pawned is lost by fire that by statute the pawnbrokers have to give the persons pledging 25 per cent, beyond the amount of pledge and all the profits of the pawnbroker—the list was at the prisoner's dictation—he signed it voluntarily—the promissory note has also his address at Brixton on it—I believe I had said it would give me 200l. per cent, interest—I do not recollect telling the Magistrate it did not matter whether his name was Robinson or Childers, because I had the documents as security—I did not look to the name at all—he gave me 20 or 30 pawn tickets—I kept them a fortnight before I gave some of them back—in the interval the matter of the watch arose—I was to lend 9l., and have 10l. back—there were 19 tickets altogether—the names of the other 10 are Folkard for a diamond keeper ring. 1l. 5.; Barnett for a chain, 5l.; Soames for a sapphire ring, 4l.; Matthews, of Kennington Cross, for two diamond rings, two guineas each; Roper, a single-stone diamond pin, 4l.; a gold watch, 5l.; a diamond ring, 3l. 10s., and a diamond pin, 3l.; and Hulman, in the Borough, a gold watch for 4l. 10s., pledged on 16th October—I could not give the correct date of it; Folkard's was one I went to look at; I examined some of the jewellery—I find a contract note dated 5th October—I called on Miss Barnett as to 5l. for the chain on 14th January, Mr. Soames on 5th Aug., Mr. Matthews on 8th Aug., Mr. Roper on 5th and 25th Aug. and 5th Sept. and in October, and on Hulman on 16th Oct.—those I had for the 4l. and one besides; the ring I had redeemed—they have been in my possession since—most of the pledges have run out—I got 5l. bonus for another month, and 4l. cash——hesent the second promissory note in place of the other to renew it—I wrote and cancelled, and said I would not accept the second one—100l. was due to me from some one, and I expected the prisoner would pay me back—I wrote the letter of

18th October. (Stating that he expected to hear from the prisoner, waking arrangements for the loan.) I could not say if that was after I had given up the watch, nor if it was after I had got back the notes—I only kept the watch about a day—the tickets were not given back when the watch was; it was a different transaction—this is my letter of 25th October. (For the prisoner to call on witness with reference to a second bill on or before following Friday.) I could not say the date I went to the police—I could not say whether I had seen any bills in the interval before I went to the police—I can't say what date I went to the police-court and swore an in formation—I did not say to the Magistrate before the warrant was granted, nor did I hear anybody else say, that the whole of the jewellery represented in these tickets was duffing—jewellery—I went there with Harvey—the warrant was granted on my and Mr. Fa nthorpe's applica tion—I was not represented by a solicitor; Mr. Wontner was not there—1 said this ring had been valued to me at about 25l., and that I had ascer tained that the articles were not worth the amount they were pledged for—I spoke of articles I had looked at, the gold watch and the diamond keeper, which I redeemed from Mr. Folkard—I stated that the prisoner gave me a number of contract notes relating to jewellery pledged at dif ferent pawnbrokers'—on the 15th he came and wanted more money, and gave me more pawntickets, and a note for 50ll., with the understanding that I was to give him the remainder of the 40ll. if I could raise it—I have since called at the pawnbroker's, and seen some of the articles to which some of the tickets relate—I have ascertained they are not worth the amount they are pledged for—I have redeemed the ring pledged for 2l. 10s., and have since ascertained it is not worth 1ll.—I did not say any thing about having 20 tickets, and only having inquired about three—I don't think I counted them till you asked me at the Court—I knew 1 had a lot beyond the nine—I redeemed the ring about 14th October—I have lent money at interest upon security once or twice before this—I parted with 14ll. on the evening of one day and 16ll. at mid-day on the next—I had the nine tickets in my possession—I first went to the pawnbroker's on 14th October to redeem the ring.

Re-examined. That was an exact month after the gift of the bill, and after I received the letter from the prisoner—that was the first intima tion I had that I should have to rely on the security—I have endeavoured to realise on the security, and done what I could to get my money back, and was unable to do so—the 35ll. bill and 44ll. I refused to receive; the 50ll. was destroyed—I took no 10 U for the interest—the interest charged by the pawnbrokers on these things was 1s. 6d.

JOHN FAWTHORPE . I live at 16, Henslow Bond, Barry Road, Peckham Road, and am a merchant's clerk—on 29th September my attention was called to an advertisement in the Daily Telegraph, and I made this copy of it: "To small private capitalists; 20ll. wanted for 21 days; security valued at over 70ll.; value of 70ll. deposited, and a bonus of 5l. will be paid; address Mr. Hope, 190, Oxbridge Road"—I communicated with the person at 190, Uzbridge Road, and about four days alter, on 3rd October, the prisoner called on me—he produced my letter and handed me this card, "Mr. G. W. Childers, Merchant Jeweller, Holbrook House, Canterbury Road, Brixton "—he said he was a merchant jeweller, that lie was temporarily pressed for money, and had been obliged to pawn part of his stock; that he had a large wedding order in hand, and was in

want of a further 20l., and that it was a very common thing for people in his trade to pledge part of their stock in order to raise money temporarily, sometimes to the extent of a couple of thousand pounds—he then produced a number of contract notes and pawn-tickets, which he was prepared to give as security, and he said "The goods are pledged for about a third or half of their value "—I said I did not like the security, as I was unacquainted with the value of pawn-tickets, and suggested instead or in addition one or two articles themselves from his stock—he said the tickets themselves were ample security, as there was a margin of over 90l., but he took this watch (produced) from his pocket, and said it was a gold lever and worth about 14l., and I then agreed to let him have the money—I could not let him have the money that night, but I arranged to meet him next day at London Bridge Station about 3 o'clock and bring it with me, when he was to hand me over the watch—he left the tickets with me that night, and wrote a promissory note for 25l. at 21 days—on the next day I kept the appointment—he did not attend, but on the next day, the 6th, he came to me about 9 o'clock in the evening—he handed me over the watch and I gave him 20l. in cash—when I parted with my money I believed the statements he made—he left a list with me showing the articles that the duplicates referred to and the amounts they were pledged for, which comes in the aggregate to 92l., and he wrote down beyond mat a margin of 90l.—those are his figures, "Gold lever watch and 90l." in pencil—the bill would become due on 26th October—it was not met—I did not see the prisoner after 6th October till I saw him at the police-court after the bill became due I made inquiries as to the watch of MESSRS. Strabb and Hamptings to ascertain its value, and the result was that I did not pursue my inquiries with regard to other articles—I subsequently filed an information, on which a warrant was issued—I have never received any of the money I advanced to the prisoner.

Cross-examined. I have not the tickets here—the lady's gold watch and diamond ring were pawned for 11l. with Mr. Jay, of Essex Road, Islington, on 29th August; the diamond half-hoop ring for 10l. With Thomas Smith, 257, Seven Sisters Road, on 29nd August; the diamond ring for 3l. and the single-stone diamond ring 5l. with Charles Cotton on 27th September; the gentleman's gold lever watch, 10l., with G. and F. Thomson, Praed Street; the gold pendant, earrings, and ring, 6l., with T. Smith, Hoxton, on 20th September; three gem rings, 5l. 10s., J. Watson, St. John's Wood, 16th September; single-stone diamond ring, Charles Cotton; gold lever watch, 4l., Robert Dicker; gold Albert, 2l., Solomon, 15th May; brilliant scarf ring, 9l., Knapp; gold watch and ring, 9l., Charles Sells and Sons; diamond and sapphire rings, 9l. 10s., Crosby—I never saw that 75l. 5s., the money advanced by the pawnbrokers, before—I cast the column and found it came to 88l. the writing in pencil, 4l., does not refer to the watch; it was another ticket of Knapp, in the Edgware Road, on 21st June, and it was added to the list in pencil by the prisoner—the watch the prisoner gave me was not put down on the list—he told me at the police-court that the watch was rather dirty—I did not have it cleaned—I wound it and wore it—it lost regularly half an hour a day—on its face there is a thermometer and three small dials with the days of the week and month and a seconds hand, and the watch is keyless—I have retained the watch—I wrote this letter of 14th October: "Can you give me a call this evening, as I wish to

pawnbrokers for about a third of their value, and he wanted a loan of 50l. on the tickets, which he offered as security—lie gave me this promissory note (produced) for 65l.; it is dated 29th October, 1881, and was due 1st January, 1882—he left a memorandum of the tickets and the value of the things; it is in his handwriting, and the total advanced is carried out as 134l. 12s.—on the back in his writing is a statement that he hands them over to me as collateral security—I believed the prisoner's statements, and handed him a sum of 50l. that same evening—between that time and 1st January, when the bill became due, I saw the prisoner—he said he wanted some more money advanced, and offered the same sort of security, but more of it; I declined—the bill became due, was presented, and dishonoured—from time to time I received letters from the prisoner in relation to the payment of this money; this is one of them (produced). (This was from Weston-super-Mare, and stated that the prisoner had been unwell and was going to Bristol about money matters, and asked the prose cutor to leave matters over about the promissory note or to redeem any of the articles, and that this was his sanction for doing so.) I next heard from Folkestone, then Canterbury, then Northampton—he always signed himself "S" or "Stephen Childers." (The letter from Northampton stated that the prisoner had had the small-pox and was going on board a friends yacht, and asked Mr. Gurling to write to him at Southampton, as lie wanted to know what had been done with the jewellery, whether he had redeemed it, and wliethier lie could send him a 5l. note, and he hoped to have some money by May 10, and that they might do good business together and be life friends.) I redeemed all the duplicates but three, to the amount of 100l. or more out of 134l. 12s.—I tried to dispose, and did so, of the whole at a less price than I took them out for—I lost about 20l. irrespective of the loan; I paid about 100l. to redeem it and resold it for about 90l.; that was between January and June—I did not communicate with the prisoner after the redemption and sale—I never got any of the 50l. back—I have lost 70l. in all—the redemption extended over six months—I did not redeem three articles because I saw I was losing by them.

Cross-examined. I never took proceedings in the County Court—I was to get 15l. interest for a loan of 50l. for a month—it did not strike me that was at a rate of 360 per cent, interest—I believed the jewellery was real jewellery—I redeemed the forks and diamond ring at Holly's for 45l.—I pawned the rings again at the same place—I sold the forks—the pin is at home; it was given me besides in this transaction—I redeemed 12 rings pledged for 12 guineas—I did not know the prisoner was a travelling jeweller—I did not associate with him—I went to his house to see if he lived there; he was not at home—on one occasion I was to have an admis sion to the Savoy Theatre—I paid 9s. 6d. interest on the rings, so that that would bring it to nearly 13l. that I paid for them—I raffled two of them for 3l.—I did not go on raffling; I have 10 still—I have not brought them here—I have not shown them to the gentlemen called for the prose cution—-in the pin I have are three small diamonds—I pawned the single stone diamond ring again at the same pawnbroker's for 39l. 15s. without the forks—the forks were silver, and weighed about 20oz.—I sold them for 4l. 5s. to a dealer in Clerkenwell—I did not redeem the diamond, ruby, and pearl locket—I don't remember if it is at Cotton's or Beaumont's—I destroyed the ticket—after I was in communication with the police, a

pawnbrokers for about a third of their value, and he wanted a loan of 50l. on the tickets, which he offered as security—he gave me this promissory note (produced) for 65l.; it is dated 29th October, 1881, and was due 1st January, 1882—he left a memorandum of the tickets and the value of the things; it is in his handwriting, and the total advanced is carried out as 134l. 12s.—on the back in his writing is a statement that he hands them over to me as collateral security—I believed the prisoner's statements, and handed him a sum of 50l. that same evening—between that time and 1st January, when the bill became due, I saw the prisoner—he said he wanted some more money advanced, and offered the same sort of security, but more of it; I declined—the bill became due, was presented, and dishonoured—from time to time I received letters from the prisoner in relation to the payment of this money; this is one of them (produced). (Thit was from Weston-super-Mare, and stated that the prisoner had been unwell and was going to Bristol about money matters, and asked the prosecutor to leave matters over about the promissory note or to redeem any of the articles, and that this was his sanction for doing so.) I next heard from Folkestone, then Canterbury, then Northampton—he always signed himself "S." or "Stephen Childers." (The letter from Northampton stated that the prisoner had had the small-pox and was going on board a friends yacht, and ashed Mr. Gurling to write to him at Southampton, as he wanted to know what had been done with the jewellery, whether he had redeemed it, and whether he could send him a 5l. note, and he hoped to have some money by May 10, and tlud they might do good business together and be life friends.) I redeemed all the duplicates but three, to the amount of 100l. or more out of 134l. 12s—I tried to dispose, and did so, of the whole at a less price than I took them out for—I lost about 20l. irrespective of the loan; I paid about 100l. to redeem it and resold it for about 90l.; that was between January and June—I did not communicate with the prisoner after the redemption and sale—I never got any of the 50l. back—I have lost 70l. in all—the redemption extended over six months—I did not redeem three articles because I saw I was losing by them.

Cross-examined. I never took proceedings in the County Court—I waa to get 15l. interest for a loan of 50l. for a month—it did not strike me that was at a rate of 360 per cent, interest—I believed the jewellery was real jewellery—I redeemed the forks and diamond ring at Rolly's for 45l.—I pawned the rings again at the same place—I sold the forks—the pin is at home; it was given me besides in this transaction—I redeemed 12 rings pledged for 12 guineas—I did not know the prisoner was a travelling jeweller—I did not associate with him—I went to his house to see if he lived there; he was not at home—on one occasion I was to have an admission to the Savoy Theatre—I paid 9s. 6d. interest on the rings, so that that would bring it to nearly 13l. that I paid for them—I raffled two of them for 3l.—I did not go on raffling; I have 10 still—I have not brought them here—I have not shown them to the gentlemen called for the prosecution—in the pin I have are three small diamonds—I pawned the single-stone diamond ring again at the same pawnbroker's for 39l. 15s. without the forks—the forks were silver, and weighed about 20oz.—I sold them for 4l. 5s. to a dealer in Clerkenwell—I did not redeem the diamond, ruby, and pearl locket—I don't remember if it is at Cotton's or Beaumont's—I destroyed the ticket—after I was in communication with the police, a

fortnight before the prisoner was taken into custody, I destroyed three tickets—I destroyed the ticket of the diamond locket, 4l., and the diamond and carbuncle ring, 4l.—I took out the gold watch and albert in January, and sold it to a friend of mine for 22l.; it was in for 20l.—I took out a double half hoop diamond ring about 28th January, and pawned it again about March 5th, after it had been in my possession about a month, for 12l., the same price—I did not wear it in the interval—I did not take the single-stone diamond ring out—I sold the five-stone ring, and the single-stone I sold for 12l.—I sold the single-stone half-hoop for 11l. at Debenham and Store's, on August 3rd; that is the only article I sold there—I was not present at the sale to protect it by bidding—the Albert and compass which I sold to my friend was 18-carat gold; it weighed rather more than three ounces—I don't know that it would be worth more than 4l. an ounce if it were a fashionable shape—I know gold is worth 3l. 17s. 6d. an ounce—the watch had a hunting case—it was made at Stockton-on-Tees—I don't know the weight of the case—I told the solicitor to the Public Prosecutor what I had done with these things—I don't think he knew I had the scarf-pin at home—I said in my cross-examination the pin was omitted from the list—I did not give him the name of my friend who bought the watch and chain—they did not ask me where he was that he might produce it—before parting with my money I had possession of the tickets, and I went with the prisoner to Roley's, the pawnbroker's, at Chalk Farm Road, and the prisoner showed Roley the tickets with reference to the 45l. odd—Roley said they made it a rule to require that the interest up to the day should be paid before they showed any article—the prisoner offered to pay it and said "Are the things here in your custody?"—I believe I said "As the goods are here I am perfectly satisfied and don't want to see them "—that was the only pawnbroker we went to—he asked me if I would like to go to the others, and 1 said "It is not worth while, I am quite satisfied"—I lodged with Mr. Webster, a jeweller—he is not here—I believe his name was mentioned at the police-oourt in the presence of the represen tative of the Public Prosecutor—most of the things were at Mr. Cotton's and Mr. Beaumont's—that is my signature on the other side of the list of documents relating to the jewellery—it is dated November 29th, 1881: "Mr. S. G. Childers,—I agree to return you the documents relating to jewellery on the other side on repayment of 65l., for which I hold your bill "—the bill fell due 1st January I think—I did not go to the County Court and take out a summons.

Cross-examined. The only profit I got was 30s. each on the two rings; everything else except the watch I sold at a loss.

By the JURY. I knew nothing of the customs of pawnbrokers—the prisoner told me they advanced less than the full value—I know nothing except from what he told me.

CHARLES BEWICK . I am a uewsagent and stationer, of 16, Eyre street, Piccadilly—I have known the prisoner six or eight months from time to time; his letters were addressed to my place and he has come for them. (MR. MATHEWS proposed to ask the first name in which the prisoner came to the witness. MR. BESLEY submitted it was not relevant, as there were no false pretences that he had obtained money in any false name; that it must he shown it was an intent to defraud in that absolute transaction, and that this was no charge of conspiracy. MR. MATHEWS urged that it was evidence

of a fraudulent intent, and that it was relevant to show that he was going by different names, and having letters addressed to different places. The COURT considered he had never concealed himself, but made his own personal appearance; that he had given independent security for each one; and that it had already been given in evidence; but, upon MR. MATHEWS pressing the question, the COURT permitted it to be put, taking a note of MR. BESLEY'S objection.) The name was Rawlinson—two or three dozen letters came during nine months—he paid me 1d. each—he did not tell me his name was Childers.

HENRY HUTCHINGS . I am a stationer at 190, Uxbridge Road—I know the prisoner and have taken in letters for him in the name of Hope for about ten months prior to September—he paid me 1d. per letter.

RICHARD DALTON . I keep a stationer's shop at 2, Caxton Road, Shepherd's Bush—I knew the prisoner about six months before September—I received letters for him addressed to 2, Caxton Road, in the names of Chamberlain, Morley, Everett, and Bennet—he paid 1d. per letter—he was taken into custody at Caxton Road, where he had come for two letters in the name of Everett.

LAURA CHAPMAN . I live at 9, Canterbury Road, Brixton—it is called Holbrook House—I have known the prisoner for about 16 months or a little longer under the name of Childers—he resided with me from time to time; sometimes for two weeks at a time, sometimes two days in a fort night—he was very often out of town—he would pay me for the week if he was there for a week, or 2s. 6d. a night if for the night—he had no shop there—I saw no jewellery there except what he wore, and on one or two occasions about a month or two ago I pawned two diamond earrings and a bracelet for him—when he went out in the ordinary course he would take a carpet bag with him—besides that I never saw anything which could contain any stock or jewellery.

Cross-examined. His pockets would carry jewellery—I did not know the number of his trousers or coats—I understood he was a travelling jeweller, and I knew he was a person who purchased at Debenham and Storr's auction rooms.

THOMAS MABTTN (Detective M). I received a warrant for the prisoner's apprehension, and on 2nd November I followed him to 2, Caxton Road, Shepherd's Bush—he entered—I followed, and read the warrant to him—he said "Mr. Hough lent me the money upon my promissory note, and I am prepared to pay him. I should have paid him when my second note became due "—he afterwards said "The articles, some of them, are worth two or three times as much as they are pledged for, and if Mr. Hough had come to my place at Brixton I could have paid him "—I took him to Southwark Police-station, and charged him—he made no reply—he gave me the address Holbrook House, 9, Canterbury Road, Brixton—I searched and found on him 45 pawnbrokers' duplicates, 28 special contract notes, four blank bill forms, several business cards, "G. W. Childers, Merchant Jeweller, Holbrook House, Brixton," also a piece of paper torn from a news paper, with two advertisements on it, and a number of receipts for adver tisements, a silver watch and metal chain, which he was wearing—the advertisement was for a loan of 30l. till 8th instant; offering a bonus of 8l., and deposit of security, with the address "Mr. Hope, 2, Shepherd's Bush Green"—he had also on him a postal note for 1l. (MR. MATHEWS

having asked if the witness had been round to the various addresses on the tickets, MR. BESLEY objected. The COURT allowed it, taking a note of the objection) I have been to 46 addresses—I have only found one person; two I have not been to—on one occasion I found there was no such number in the directory.

Cross-examined. I do not know that pawnbrokers' assistants put down streets which do not exist; they may do so—about three tickets had Childers's name, 16, Canterbury Road on them—on one page the name is simply "bearer" in five cases—there are two or four of Raper's tickets with "Joseph Childers, 16, Brixton Road. "

THOMAS LAYMAN . I am a pawnbroker, carrying on business at 45, Blackman Street, and am secretary of the Pawnbrokers Protection society—I received from Martin a list and a number of pawn-tickets which corresponded with the list, and I went round to all the pawnbrokers named in the list, taking the duplicates with me to see the pledges—I saw all but two, one at Mr. Solomon's, Gray's Inn Road, and the other at Mr. Smith's, Hoxton—[ made an examination of the jewellery to see what the value was, and I found they were pledged for about as much as they would fetch as second-hand jewellery; putting the whole together in bulk, I should think a little more than what it was pledged for—about a quarter was pledged for a little more than it was worth, half for its fair value, and a quarter for a little less than than its value—in no instance have I found anything pledged for half its value as second-hand, half its cost not half its selling value—I should say the whole of it cost considerably more than it is pledged for, but I should not like to say double—the bulk of the articles would be worn by ladies who hadn't the means of going to first-class houses—an auction would be a good market for them—I have seen this watch; its outside value would be 6l. secondhand—generally speaking, all the things I saw would be treated as second-hand in the trade—that is the value I gave you and the value I expect they would realise.

Cross-examined. Directly a thing is pawned, although it is new we call it second-hand—we bring it as near as we can to a new article if it has just been bought—I have known pawnbrokers buy new stock and sell it as second-hand, but it is very exceptional—in some instances people rely on the opinion of the pawnbroker, who can therefore sell new things for more than they would fetch in a shop—since the pawning to R. Attenborough's of the single-stone brilliant ring in September, diamonds have fallen 10 per cent., about 2s. 6d. or 3s. in the pound; they were cut brilliants—I told the Magistrate that pawnbrokers' value is what the things will fetch at a forced sale—if the article is destroyed by fire, the pawnbroker will return the value and 25 per cent, after deducting his principal and profit—if an article were pledged for U. and the interest were 5s., if that was for 12 months we should deduct the 5s. before we paid anything to the customer if it was destroyed by fire—if it were pledged lor 12 months and destroyed at the last month, he would get nothing for interest—a pawnbroker or his assistant has to put in pledge his judgment of the value—nearly every respectable pawnbroker in London lends more than the value, because they wish to do business and people want to redeem—if it runs out we may lose on the transaction—we do not always lose—we have to keep it for three years, and if we make an extra amount on the forced sale, we have to pay it over to the customer—I have paid such a balance over myself; it does not often happen—pledges that

have run over are sold at Debenham and Store's—there are many dealers in jewellery and precious stones who principally keep their stock at pawn brokers' shops, because it is easier to sell a ticket with the judgment of the pawnbroker on the value of the article than it is to get people to buy on their own judgment—the person wanting the article sees it described on the ticket, goes and looks at it at the pawnbroker's, and then buys the ticket—I think that is the best market—it is usual to demand the interest up to the time of showing—Mr. Beaumont, a pawnbroker of Goswell Road, went with me—I should think the watch if bought in an expen sive market cost 14l. new—I should say it would be sold at more than 10l. in Bond Street but less in Whitechapel—in Bishopsgate Street, where ships' captains come, I should say it would have fetched about 11l. or 12l.—I should not quite like to say that the price of an article in a shop would on an average be double what it was pledged for—jewellery does bear a large profit—I should say a quarter of the articles I saw appeared to be new—half were in good condition—I said it was not jewellery concocted to look worth more than it really is; I also said, "A man buying jewellery to sell by auction could realise some by pawning, and then if he could borrow money on or sell the ticket he would make a clear gain "—the amount of advance on the tickets is 228l. 19s., and then there are eight which I have not seen.

Re-examined. If a man sells the ticket for the value disclosed on it, he gets double value for the article, and the man who buys the ticket has to pay that sum over again to redeem the article—all articles above 10s. are obliged by law to be sold, and the ordinary market is the auctioneer's market—we charge 25 per cent, on the amount we advance up to 2l., 20 per cent, above 2l., and above 10l. anything the parties choose to contract for—it is an advantage to the pawnbroker to lend up to the full value because of the interest he gets—I might lend 6l. on this watch if offered by a person likely to redeem it—if offered by a person I did not know I should not lend so much: I should regard it as a speculative pledge at 6l.

This being the case for the prosecution, MR. BESLEY submitted that there was no fake pretence; at the most it merely amounted to an exaggeration of the value of the articles. He pointed out that every article was really in pledge for the amount stated on the ticket; that ample opportunity had been given the prosecutors to ascertain the true value for themselves, and that they had never sued on the promissory notes. He referred to the decision of Chief Baron Pollock (Cox's Criminal Cases Vol. 9, in Q. v. Evans) and to that of Lord Campbell (Deersley and Bell p. 265, Elkingtoris case). MR. MATHEWS having replied, the COURT considered the case turned entirely upon the point of law, that it was merely a question of exaggeration of value, and that if he were to let it go to the Jury he should be overruling the decisions in the cases cited. He therefore directed a verdict of


11th December 1882
Reference Numbert18821211-168
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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