Old Bailey Proceedings.
9th April 1877
Reference Number: t18770409

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Old Bailey Proceedings front matter.
9th April 1877
Reference Numberf18770409

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Sessions Paper.








Short-hand Writers to the Court,










On the Queen's Commission of



The City of London,





Held on Monday, April 9th, 1877, and following days,

BEFORE THE RIGHT HON. SIR THOMAS WHITE , KNT., LORD MAYOR of the City of London; The Hon. Sir JOHN WALTER HUDDLESTON , Knt., one of the Justices of the High Court of Justice, Exchequer Division; THOMAS SIDNEY , Esq., THOMAS QUESTED FINNIS, Esq., Sir ROBERT WALTER CARDEN , Knt., Sir WILLIAM ANDERSON ROSE , Knt., Sir BENJAMIN SAMUEL PHILLIPS , Knt., WILLIAM FERNELEY ALLEN, Esq., Sir JAMES CLARKE LAWRENCE , Bart., M.P., and Sir THOMAS DAKIN , Knt., Aldermen of the said City; The Right Hon. RUSSELL GURNEY , Q.C., M.P., Recorder of the said City; Sir CHARLES WHETHAM Knt., and JAMES FIGGINS , Esq., other of the Aldermen of the said City; Sir THOMAS CHAMBERS , Knt., Q.C., M.P., Common Serjeant of the said City; and ROBERT MALCOLM KERR , Esq., Judge of the Sheriff's Court; Her Majesty's Justices of Oyer and Terminer and General Gaol Delivery of Newgate, holden for the said City, and Judges of the Central Criminal Court.








star (*) denotes that prisoners have been previously in custody—two stars (**) that they have been more than once in custody—an obelisk (†) that they are known to be the associates of bad characters—the figures after the name in the indictment denote the prisoner's age.


NEW COURT.—Monday, April 9th, 1877.

Before Mr. Recorder.

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-334
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceNo Punishment > sentence respited

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334. JAMES STANFORD SCOTT (62), was indicted for wilful and corrupt perjury on the trial of a cause before Vice-Chancellor Bacon.

MR. GORST, Q.C., with MESSRS. NALDER and CLARKE conducted the Prosecution; and MR. MONTAGU WILLIAMS the Defence.

MR. WILLIAMS (before plea) moved to quash the indictment, on the ground that as it did not allege that the matters sworn to by the prisoner were material to the issue, it was bad upon the face of it THE RECORDER declined to quash the 'indictment, the matter being on the record proceedings could be' taken by demurrer or writ of error.

JAMES TOWELL ; I am shorthand writer—I was present at the trial of the cause of Scott v. Wood, before Vice-Chancellor Bacon, on 16th, 17th, and 19th February last—the prisoner was a witness, he was sworn by the officer of the Court, and gave evidence—I took the notes—this is an examined copy of my transcript, it is correct; I have my original notes here. (Various portions of the prisoner's examination were read, the parts upon which he perjury was alleged being a denial that he had mortgaged or disposed of his interest in certain property in Leicestershire, or Brook Green, Hammersmith; a. denial that he had executed certain deeds to that effect; or that he had employed Messrs. Overton and Hughes, as his solicitors, in the matter).

Cross-examined. The trial came on late in the afternoon of the 16th, and was over about 3 o'clock, on the 19th; it occupied one whole day, and parts of two days; I was present all the time except a couple of hours in the morning of the second day—the prisoner systematically denied his signature to every deed and document that was placed before him, after being cautioned by Mr. Kay over and over again—Mr. Kay told him several times that the witnesses were in Court, who had seen him sign them.

Re-examined. Several letters were put in—I can't recollect whether he admitted or denied those to be his writing, he admitted writing some no doubt.

JOHN SMITH CURTIS . I am articled clerk to Messrs. Collyer, Bristow, and Co., solicitors, who are agents for Mr. Ingram, solicitor, of Leicester, I attended in Court at the trial of this cause; I handed in to the Registrar the pleadings in the cause, and they were handed up to the Judge—I saw

a great mass of letters put into the hands of the prisoner—I have them here, I can't swear which he swore to be in his writing and which not—all these letters were put into his hands: 23rd and 29th of April, 1839; 3rd 5th, and 31st of May, 10th, 12th, and 26th June, 4th July, 16th September, 5th November, and 18th December, 1839; 14th and 25th March, 1840; and 7th July, and 22nd August, 1842—I know that he admitted some of them—I produce a deed dated 18th February, 1847, conveying the Leicestershire property to Jonathan Wood; also a deed of covenant of the same date—those were shown to the prisoner.

Cross-examined. I was acting as solicitor for the defendants in the suit—Mr. Kay told the prisoner that the person was in Court, who saw him sign the different documents—I do not know that the cause was adjourned for the purpose of the prisoner waiving his claim; I think Mr. Locock Webb threw up the case, I can't tell whether the prisoner insisted on the case going on, the case did goon.

HENRY MAXWELL DALSTON . I am a solicitor, I produce some letters which were put into the prisoner's hands at the trial—they are dated: 20th February, 1846; 10th December, 1846; 11th, 19th, 22nd, 26th, 28th January, 1847—I also produce a deed of 16th February, 1847, which is a conveyance of the Brook Green property to a person named Rey, that was put into the prisoner's hands.

JOHN 'MCMILLAN . I am a solicitor—I produce a deed of 6th March, 1846—it is a release of an annuity by Mr. and Mrs. Robinson, and Mr. Rastall—that deed was put into the prisoner's hands at the trial—I also produce a deed of 29th July, 1840, it is the appointment of Mr. Rastall as trustee in the place of a Mr. Stirling—that was also put into the prisoner's hands at the trial; here is another deed of 29th July, 1840, which is a deed of arrangement and mutual release, and that has a deed of 11th February, 1841, endorsed on it—that was also put into the prisoner's hands at the the trial—the deed of 6th March, 1846, purports to be signed "J.S. Scott"—I attested his signature, with Alfred King, of 27, Queen Street, Cheapside—Mr. King is dead—I know his handwriting well, and that is his writing—the deed of 29th July, 1840, is signed by Scott, attested by King, also the other deed of-same date—the deed of 11th February, 1841, is signed by Scott, attested by King—this other deed of 28th November, 1842, which is a conveyance of the Hare Hatch property, purports to be signed by the prisoner attested by Charles Atwater, of 27, Queen Street, Cheapside—Atwater is dead, I know his handwriting, this is it.

Cross-examined. I knew that there was a firm of Overton and Hughes at the time these deeds were executed—I was clerk to King and Atwater—I know that there was some misbehaviour on the part of Overton and Hughes.

MARTIN CHARLES BYRON . I produce a deed, dated 28th November, 1842, which is a conveyance of the Hare Hatch property by the prisoner to a Mr. Hodgkinson.

MR. TOWELL was recalled and read portions of the prisoners examination, in which the letters referred to were placed in his hands, and admitted by him, to be in his writing, they were addressed principally to his solicitors, urging the completion of the business in their hands, and requesting advances of small sums of money.

WILLIAM ROBSON ARCHER . I am at present a solicitor and notary public, practising at Lowestoff—in 1845 I joined the firm of Overton and Hughes,

solicitors, in the Old Jewry, and was with them seven or eight years—after I left them I heard that Mr. Hughes was convicted of something; I do not know it of my own knowledge—I joined them as a conveyancing clerk—at that time the prisoner was a client in the office; he was there frequently—I did not attend personally to his business at first, it was attended to by Mr. Atherton, the then managing conveyancing clerk, but Atherton went into partnership with an auctioneer, and after that I became managing conveyancing clerk, and managed his business for upwards of two years—I know his signature—the signature to this deed of release of an annuity of 6th March, 1846 is his; I am the attesting witness, with Mr. King, and that is Mr. King's signature—the deed of 29th February, 1840, is executed by the prisoner, attested by Mr. Atwater, the other deed of 29th July, 1840, is a deed of arrangement and mutual release, the signature to that is the prisoner's, also the signature to the endorsed deed on the back, dated 11th February, 1841, and that is attested by Mr. King, whose handwriting I know quite well—the conveyance of November 28th, 1842, is executed by the prisoner, attested by Mr. Atwater—there is a declaration by the prisoner of 28th November, 1842, and a receipt to the deed signed by F. Mary Robinson, the prisoner's mother, and executed by the prisoner; that is his signature—this bond also bears his signature; this deed of 18th February, 1847, which is a release of Mrs. Robinson's life interest, and the prisoners contigent interest in the Leicestershire property to Jonathan Wood is executed by the prisoner—I was the attesting witness—there are several receipts for money, amounting to 3,175l., the purchase money of the Leicestershire property; they bear the prisoner's signature, attested by myself—this deed of 18th February, 1847, which is a covenant to produce deeds is executed by the prisoner and attested by myself—the deed of 16th February, 1847, is a conveyance of the Brook Green property to Roy, that is executed by the prisoner and attested by me—there is a receipt upon that by Miss Catherine Clark, the mortgagee, for l,570l., which was advanced for her, and I am the attesting witness—I settled the draft of this conveyance to Jonathan Wood—I cannot remember whether the prisoner saw it in draft, but I kept a full account in my diary of what I did in the office, and if it is stated there, it would be so—I attended the sale of the Leicestershire property at his request, at Melton Mowbray; that was at the latter part of 1846—the Brook Green property was also sold at his request—I attended to the matter.

Cross-examined. Being in the office I should know the greater part of the property the prisoner was originally entitled to; at the present time it must be worth 20,000l.—I cannot tell how much money he got for it—before he came into Overton and Hughes's office, he had had l,000l. advanced to him—I cannot tell without reference how much he had from Overton and Hughes, but several hundreds, some in small sums; he came to me at Mr. Hughes', and I advanced 2l. to him on an I O U; he was always asking for money—the matter went out of Overton and Hughes office upon the sale of the property, about February, 1847—I was present at the hearing before the Vice-Chancellor, the prisoner could see me there—I went up to him and said "Well Scott, how are you, you know me"—he knew that I was the attesting witness to those signatures—he had lost sight of me for over twenty-five years—when I went into Court he pretended not to know me—I said "Your name is Scott, my name is Archer, it is rubbish to tell me you don't know me"—he said "No, I don't"—I said "You know me

as well as I know you, I attended to your business for two or three years"—he said "I don't know you"—I said "It is quite clear you are determined not to know me"—this was before the cause came on, before he was sworn.

J. S. CURTIS (re-examined). These documents, the statement of claim, the defence and the reply are printed copies—I can't say that these were the documents that were handed to the Vice-Chancellor; copies of them were handed up—it is the practice in the Court of Chancery for the parties to hand up to the Judge prints of the claim, the defence, and the answer—they are filed at the Record and Writ office—I hare to file the pleadings before I draw up the order.

EDWARD ORAM . I am a clerk in the Record and Writ office of the Court of Chancery—those pleadings were filed in that office, and I produce them—this is the original writ—I can't say that these are original documents or that these were handed to the Vice-Chancellor—they would not be stamped with the seal of the Court—the solicitor would have the original documents—these are the documents that were filed, they would be filed by the solicitor who drew up the order.

J. S. CURTIS (re-examined). This is an office copy of the order made by the Vice-Chancellor dismissing the action—I can't say that these are the documents that were handed to the Vice-Chancellor—various copies of them were printed, identical with these—I was clerk to the attorney conducting the cause before the Vice-Chancellor—the original writ was served on the defendant, it is a copy that is filed—the original is stamped—the plaintiff files that before he can begin the action—an appearance is entered to the original writ, by the defendant; the plaintiff would not have the writ.

MR. WILLIAMS submitted that in the absence of the original writ there was no case, there being nothing to show what the matter in issue was before the Vice-Chancellor. Mr. Gorst after calling attention to Rule 7 of the Chancery Procedure Act, stated that he did not adduce the document as a copy of the writ, but as evidence that the plaintiff had commenced an action against the defendant, which action was the matter to be tried. The Recorder did not consider the proof sufficient, it would appear by the original writ what the Vice-Chancellor had to try; he would not peremptorily decide the question non, but would reserve the point, as it was very desirable that it should be settled what was sufficient evidence of the commencement of the proceedings under the New Rules.

Witnesses for the Defence.

FREDERICK WILLIAM SPURGIN . I live at 14, Henrietta Street, Covent Garden, and am a M.R.C.S. and L.R.C.P.—I have known the defendant eighteen years—about six years ago I was consulted regarding the state of his mind—I considered him during the whole of my knowledge of him, as a man of weak mind—about six years ago I was called in by his wife, in consequence of what she said I saw him with a view of ascertaining his state of health and mind—I saw him alone—I then considered that he was a man, of weak intellect—I did not have any conversation with him then as to his monetary affairs—I formed my opinion from his general conversation at that period—on 5th April, 1877, I saw him at his own house, Argyll House, Turaham Green, in consultation with Dr. Wynne—we were in consultation about three-quarters of an hour—I made a careful examination as to his mental state—I considered that he was not capable of carrying on the ordinary avocations of life—I talked to him on money

affairs, he appeared to have no real knowledge of money matters in a business point of view—I consider him decidedly a man of very weak intellect, and in my opinion he is not capable of conducting business in the ordinary avocations of life.

Cross-examined. When I saw him on 5th April he had been committed to take his trial for perjury.

JAMES MICHEL WYNNE , M.D. I was formerly resident physician of Sussex House Lunatic Asylum—I live at 31, Harley Street, Cavendish Square—on 5th April I had an interview with the defendant of about three-quarters of an hour—I tested his memory, I thought it was defective; I examined him as to the number of children he had—it was upon that and other questions that I founded my opinion about his memory—I asked him as a sort of crucial test of his capacity for business, if he would sign a cheque for 1,000l. for Dr. Spurgin, and I sketched out a rough form, which he signed without looking at it, his wife was in the room—I unhesitatingly affirm that he is a man of decidedly weak intellect and defective memory.

Cross-examined. I was informed that he had been committed to take his trial for perjury—I had not seen him before, that was my first and last interview.


MR. WILLIAMS moved in arrest of judgment upon the ground first mentioned, and also on the ground that the indictment did not sufficiently show upon the face of it what the matter was before the Court ("Reg., v. Goodfellow," I Carrington and Marsham, p. 576.) MR. GORST contended that what was shown to be before the Vice-Chancellor was the action, the names of the plaintiff and defendant being mentioned, and that was all that it was necessary to aver, there was no issue as there used to be; the action consisted of certain statements and counter statements, from which the Judge had to give his decision. The Recorder consented to reserve this point also— Judgment reserved.

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-335
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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335. GEORGE LUFFWEST (49) , PLEADED GUILTY to feloniously forging and uttering an order for the payment of 5l., with intent to defraud— Twelve Months' Imprisonment.

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-336
VerdictNot Guilty > fault

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336. JOSEPH TUNN (42) , Stealing a leather bag two links, two chains, and other goods, and money to the amount of 13l., of Lord William Brooks Phipps.

MR. M. WILLIAMS conducted the Prosecution; and MR. W. SLEIGH the Defence.

LORD WILLIAM BROOKS PHIPPS . I reside at Lupton, Brentwood—on the 12th January, my wife was a traveller by the Great Eastern Railway—before she left to go to the station, I saw placed in a bag which she took with her a pair of gold links, a gold chain, a gold pencil-case, and other property, also some money, amongst which was this 5l. note, number "36901, F. 41" (produced)—I did not accompany my wife, she stayed a few hours longer in town—in consequence of what she afterwards told me I gave information to the police.

SUCCARI TUCKER . I am in the employment of the Earl of Ellesmere—on the 12th January last I went to the Liverpool Street Station with Lady Phipps' luggage—she was going to Brentwood by the 3.8 train—amongst the luggage was a dressing bag belonging to her ladyship—I placed it on the hat rail over the seat in the carriage; I left it there while I went to look after the other luggage—when I returned it was gone.

WILLIAM FRANCIS HOLLAND . I am barman at the Lord Clyde public-house, Westminster—the prisoner came there on the 12th of January,

between 4 and 5 o'clock with a cabman—the prisoner called for a glass of something, and tendered a 5l. note in payment—I sent out to get it changed—the prisoner then called for a bottle of brandy which he took away with him—I was not able to get the note changed, so changed it myself—this is the note; I recognised the prisoner on the 19th of March, at the police-court.

Cross-examined. I have not given my evidence before—I could not read the name on the note, but the address is 27, Denbigh Street.

Re-examined. I asked the prisoner to endorse it. (The endorsement was "John Tunn, 24, Denligh Street")

CHARLES JOHN WILLIAMS . I am secretary to the Bank of England—I produce the note in question marked "41 F. 63901"—it has been returned into the Bank of England as paid.

WILLIAM WRIGHT (City Policeman). I took Tunn into custody at the Lord Clyde public-house, Westminster, and took him to the Westminster police-court—he was then under remand on another charge—the witness Holland identified him as the person who passed the note—there has been no inquiry before the Magistrate on this charge—the prisoner was committed for trial on another charge.

NOT GUILTY . (See page 683)

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-337
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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337. WILLIAM MURPHY (16), and MICHAEL BRYAN (20) , Feloniously assaulting Thomas Cheeseman, with intent to rob him.

MR. BESLEY conducted the Prosecution.

THOMAS CHEESEMAN . I live at Everett's Place, St. George's-in-the-East—about 1 o'clock on the 25th of March, I was in Backchurch Lane, going home—Mr. Telford's daughter's husband was with me—we met three men; I stepped off the pavement to make room—the prisoner Bryan lunged at me with his shoulder—I said "Why did you do that old chap" and he up with his fist and hit me in the mouth—it was light enough for him to see that I was an old man—he knocked me down—I got up; be knocked me down again; I then sat on a step—Telford then said to Bryan "What made you hit the—old man"—Bryan then struck at Telford, who stood in his own defence and struck Bryan—they kept on tussling, and Bryan came and laid hold of me and knocked me about—Telford went away to get assistance, Bryan held me, and one of them tried to get his hand in my, pocket—at least three men were there—I am sure the prisoners are two of them; I kept my hand in my pocket on my money—I had is. 6d. and some' half-pence—I called "Murder "and "Police," and some women did so out of their windows—they then all ran away; after I got up I saw a policeman coming with Bryan in custody.

Cross-examined by Murphy. I saw you there—you did not touch me.

Cross-examined by Bryan. Telford did not lunge against you, he tried to get out of your way.

Re-examined. I did not assist Telford; I did not strike anyone.

WILLIAM TELFORD . I was walking with Cheeseman,' when I saw two big chaps coming along singing; I stepped off the pavement—Bryan shoved Cheeseman by the shoulder, and when he went to speak hit Mr. Cheeseman in the mouth, he fell and got up again-Bryan hit him again—Bryan hit him again—I said "You ought to be ashamed of yourself to hit an old man like that"—three or four men then laid hold of me, and Bryan put his hand in my pocket—I had not then struck anybody,

nor had the old man been guilty of any violence; he could not speak—I ran away and fetched a policeman—when I got back they were all running away—there were six or seven of them—I recognised both prisoners—I will swear to Murphy being there as well as Bryan—Murphy kicked the policeman in the leg—the policeman then let Bryan go and caught Murphy.

DENNIS KELLY (Policeman H. 159). I was called by Telford to go to Backchurch Lane—I saw Cheeseman standing up against the wall, bleeding from his hands and mouth—the two prisoners were near him, and another man walking very fast, about 3 yards away—Murphy was one—I laid hold of Bryan and Murphy kicked me three times and said "A knife for a d----copper"—I then apprehended him and took him to the station—Bryan afterwards gave himself up and said he struck the old man and not Murphy.

Cross-examined by Murphy I did not kick and knock you about, you said so at the station, but you could not shew any marks.

Cross-examined by Bryan. You did not ask me to take you too, when I refused.

Bryan's statement before the Magistrate was that two of his companions were drunk, and a quarrel ensued with the prosecutor and Telford, and that he Bryan, gave himself up for the assault-with which Murphy was charged.

Murphy's statement was: "The policeman says I kicked him, but he kicked me"

NOT GUILTY . (See Fifth Court, Wednesday.)

THIRD COURT.—Monday, April 9th, 1877.

Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-338
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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338. JOHN STEPHEN DAVY (34) , Feloniously having counterfeit coin in his possession, with intent to utter it.

MR. CRAUFURD conducted the Prosecution; and MR. LLOYD the Defence.

CHARLES. PHILLIPS . I am a tailor of 58, Pembroke Road, Kensington—on 5th March I was at the Albion Brewery Tap, where I met the prisoner, who I knew, but had not spoken to for two years—he spoke to me first and we left the house together—we went to Covent Garden by railway and had some tea, and then went to a public-house and had two twos of whiskey close to the market—I filled my pipe and the prisoner asked me for some tobacco—I had no more, and he asked me to get some.; and gave me a shilling—I was going out for it, and he called me back and said "Charity, that is a duffer, you had better take a good one in case they should round on you"—I said "You vagabond, what do you mean by that?"—knowing that he had just come out of prison for the same offence—I said "Well come and show me where the tobacco shop is"—he came out I beckoned to a constable, and then took the prisoner by the collar, he struck me a violent blow in the face, which made my mouth and nose bleed, and said "There you b—s——, take that for rounding on me"—I gave him in charge and handed the shilling to the inspector.

Cross-examined. I did not give you some bad money and left you to put it in your pocket.

ALFRED MARSHALL (Policeman 43 E.R). Itook the prisoner—he struck phillips and made his mouth and nose bleed, and said "Take that for rounding"—I asked him if he had got any more, he said "No"—I put my hand in his pocket and pulled nine bad shillings, wrapped all together in blue paper—he said "He must have put them in my pocket"—I saw phillips give this bad shilling to the inspector, who gave it to me.

Cross-examined. You did not say "He has just given them to me."

WILLIAM WEBSTER . I am inspector of coin to Her Majesty's Mint—there ten coins are bad, and from the same mould.

Prisoner's Defence. This man gave them to me. I wanted to put them in the fire. I have known him twelve years, he never does a day's work.

GUILTY . He was further charged with a previous conviction at this Court of tittering counterfeit coin in December, 1875, to which he

PLEADED GUILTY Five Years' Penal Servitude.

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-339
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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339. GEORGE FREDERICK (45) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.

MESSRS. CRAUFURD and LLOYD conducted the Prosecution.

WILLIAM BLANCHARD . I am a pastrycook, of 140, High Street, Whitechapel—on 2nd March, about 11.45 p.m. my daughter served the prisoner with a pie, and I saw him give her a shilling—I took it from her and found it was bad—I told the prisoner so; he said nothing, but took something from his pocket and swallowed it—I gave him in charge with the shilling—I saw Cahil outside—I marked the shilling at the police-court.

WILLIAM CAHIL . My father keeps the Grapes, Church Row, Aldgate—on 2nd March, about 11.30, I served the prisoner with 1 1/2 d. of gin, he gave me a shilling—I know him before—I gave him 10 1/2 d. change and told him it was bad—he went out and I followed him to a house opposite Mr. Blanchard's—I do not know what he did there—I then followed him to Mr. Blanchard's,. keeping the shilling in my hand till I gave it to a policeman.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. I did not put the shilling in the till; I kept it in my hand all the way to the station.

PATHERICK HARRINGHAM (Policeman H 269). Mr. Blanchard called me and gave the prisoner into my charge—I told him the charge, he made no reply—he was searched at the station, and two shillings, a sixpence, and 3d. found on him—I received these two shillings from Blanchard and Cahil.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . These coins are both bad.

Prisoners Defence. I was not aware they were bad.

GUILTY Nine Months' Imprisonment.

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-340
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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340. HENRY WILLIAMS (24), was indicted for a like offence.

MESSRS. CRAUFURD and LLOYD conducted the Prosecution.

KATE ABSOLOM . I am barmaid at the Harp, Russell Street, Covent Garden—on 3rd March, I served the prisoner with 1d. worth of tobacco, he gave me shilling, I told him it was bad, he asked me to give it back to him, and he would give me a 1d.—I refused and gave him in custody with the shilling which I marked.

THOMAS OSBORNE (Policeman E 503). I took the prisoner—he said that he did not know the shilling was bad—I found on him 4 ¾d. in copper—he was remanded till the 5th, and then discharged—I received this shilling from the last witness.

JAMES HAYNES . I keep the Baptist's Head, Smithfield—on 6th March, I served the prisoner with 2d. worth of rum—he gave me a bad half-crown—I went from behind the counter, placed myself between the two doors and sent for a constable and gave him in custody with the half-crown.

WILLIAM ANGER (Policeman G 123). I took the prisoner and received this halfcrown.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . This shilling and half-crown are bad.

Prisoner's Defence. The half-crown was given me between three penny pieces.

GUILTY - Nine Months' Imprisonment.

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-341
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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341. WALTER WILLIAMS (25) , Stealing a pocket-book, and eight pieces of paper, of Bartle Goldsmith, from his person.

MR. GRAIN conducted the Prosecution; and MR. FRITH the Defence.

BARTLE GOLDSMITH . I am a stockbroker, of 31, Throgmorton Street—on 6th March, about 12.50, I was entering the Stock Exchange, by the New Court entrance—I had a heavy pocket-book in the pocket of my frockcoat—I had to pass my hand under my coat to get at my pocket—I felt a hand in my pocket and felt a difference in weight, turned round and heard some one call out something—I saw the prisoner go round the screen which is 2 yards inside the door, and also a companion of his—no strangers are admitted there, the porters know strangers—I went round the screen, siezed the prisoner on the other side, and said "You have stolen my pocket-book"—he said "No, but I have picked one up"—there was only half or three-quarters of a minute from the time I felt the loss of weight to the time I said him—noticing that his coat was very much bulged out I opened his two coats and found my pocket-book under his arm, held by his arm—I took him into the housekeeper's room—my pocket-book contained a lot of memoranda and 18s. worth of telegraph forms, and several papers very valuable to myself.

Cross-examined. I mean to say that I never saw any strangers in the Stock Exchange, they are turned out the moment they come to the door—the prisoner did not offer me the pocket-book before I charged him—my pocket was deep, there was no hole in it, and it was impossible for the book to fall out, it was very heavy and went to the bottom of my pocket—I have said that I thought it was done in chaff, but the prisoner was a stranger to me—I do not think anybody went in with me except the prisoner, and the other man.

SELIGNAN. I am clerk to Mr. Penner, a stockbroker—on 6th March I was in the lobby of the Stock Exchange and saw Mr. Goldsmith go in and two men close behind him—the prisoner was one, he had his hand in Mr. Goldsmith's pocket—I opened the door and called out "Do you miss anything."

Cross-examined. I only swear to the prisoner to the best of my belief.

SAMUEL PEARCE (City Policeman 671). The prisoner was given into my custody—he refused his address, and said that he picked the pocket-book up—I found a gold watch in his waistcoat pocket, with an Albert chain attached, a double sovereign and another coin, 5l. in gold, and 5 1/2 d. in Bronze and two bird calls.

Cross-examined. He said that he had a reason for refusing his address, out he did not say that it was because his wife had been recently confined. John Benyon. I am a special constable of the Stock Exchange—on 6th March I saw the prisoner come round the screen and go out again and Mr. soldsmith with him—I know all the members of the Stock Exchange—trangers are not admitted on any pretence whatever.


He was further charged with a previous conviction at Clerkenwell, in March, 1871, to which he

PLEADED GUILTY**— Seven Years' Penal Servitude.

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-342
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

Related Material

342. JOHN DONOVAN (22) , Stealing 7 gallons of wine, the property of Edgar Brefit and another.

MR. STRAIGHT conducted the Prosecution; and MR. RIBTON the Defence.

WILLIAM OLDS . I am assistant inspector of Customs, in the Port of London—I know Dowgate wharf, a portion of it is occupied by Messrs. Brefit and Co.—it is a bonded wharf, under the control of the Customs

authorities and it is locked by them at night—Doherty was the foreman cooper in Messrs. Brefit's employ, and the prisoner was also in their employ subordinate to Doherty—I was on the premises on Monday, December 18th, about 4.45 p.m.—the spirit warehouse is outside, and the wine ware-house is an inner vault—I went into the wine vault and saw the prisoner and a lad named Carr about a dozen yards from him—the vault is as large as this Court—the prisoner was near a pipe of port, which was wet round the bung hole, a small tub was close to it, with fluid in it, which I afterwards ascertained to be water—there was a syphon and a funnel there—I said to the prisoner "What are you doing here?"—he said "I am putting a little wine into the pipe—I tasted the liquor and found that it was water—I said "It is water you are using of"—he placed both his hands in the tub, put them to his mouth and said "No, it is wine"—I made him take the tub into the small office, and took out a glass of the liquid and it was water I said "Does Doherty know this?"—Carr and Donovan both said No, we did not want him to know of it"—I afterwards guaged the pipe of port, and it was 7 gallons short, allowing 1 gallon for evaporation as it had been there two months—we allow a gallon in a year for evaporation—I communicated with the authorities in reference to Doherty.

Cross-examined. The prisoner was under Doherty's directions-Carr's age is seventeen or eighteen, he was charged, and said that he acted by Doherty's directions, and the case against him was not proceeded with—I had seen Carr there on the Saturday, doing something to the cash and liquors, and Donovan took the responsibility of it—Doherty was not there I saw Doherty on the Wednesday engaged in a certain act with some sherry—the prisoner was not in custody then—the prisoner was not given in custody till about a month afterwards—Doherty would draw samples into a bottle if he had sampling orders—the casks are guaged on importation, but not afterwards unless something arises to call for it—other men were in the vaults occasionally—I did not hear Carr say, that if he did not execute Doherty's orders he would give him the sack, but I heard that he had said so—the water was not clean, but it was not bright—it was not like brown sherry or pale sherry—Doherty was primarily responsible for the contents of the vault—wine or spirits going in or out would come under his notice—every man engaged in the vault had his responsibilities—the charge against Doherty was being concerned in stealing 7 pints of brandy and 13 gallons of sherry—the quantity taken out as a sample is 3 gills, very nearly a pint.

Re-examined. There appeared to be no wine in the water—the syphon was within a yard of the pipe of port—the pipe was 8 gallons short in two months.

JOHN CARE . I was in the employ of Messrs. Brefit two years—Doherty was their foreman and Donovan was under him—on Monday, 18th December Mr. Olds came down when Donovan and I were in the wine cellar—I did not see what Donovan was doing to the pipe of port, and did not see whether the bung was out—I heard Mr. Olds ask Donovan what he was doing there—Donovan said "I am just putting a little wine into this cask"—I saw a tub—Mr. Olds put his finger into it, tasted it, and said that it was water—I had taken the water down in a can that morning, about 8.30, and it was put into the tub.

By THE COURT. I got the water from our warehouse on the quay—it was not the Thames water.

WILLIAM TANSEY (City Policeman). I took Donovan on 28th February' and took him to Bow Street station, where he was charged with being concerned with Doherty and Carr in stealing wine and spirits—he said '"I know nothing about the stealing; what I have done I have done by the instructions of Doherty"—Doherty was not by—I apprehended him afterwards.


NEW COURT.—Tuesday, April 10th, 1877.

Before Mr. Recorder.

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-343
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

Related Material

343. HERBERT HUNT (33) , PLEADED GUILTY to unlawfully appropriating to his own use divers goods, with which he had been entrusted as a factor or agent— Five Years' Penal Servitude.

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-344
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

Related Material

344. GEORGE MELYILLE, (70) , to unlawfully obtaining 10s., of—Bowles, by false pretences— Twelve. Months' Imprisonment. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-345
SentenceImprisonment; Imprisonment

Related Material

345. NICHOLAS WELSH (59) and CHARLES GOURON (29) , to feloniously forging and uttering an order for the delivery, of goods. WELSH having been before convicted. WELCH— Eighteen Months Imprisonment GOUSON— Twelve Months' Imprisonment.

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-346
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

Related Material

346. JOSEPH TUNN (42), was again indicted (See page 678), for stealing a carpet bag, a collar, a handkerchief, a book, and shirt, the property of George Perry Abrahams. Second Count—feloniously receiving the same.

MR. READ conducted the Prosecution; and MR. W. SLEIGH the Defence. George Perry Abrahams, I live at Keswick, Cumberland, and am a photographer—on 2nd March I arrived at the Paddington Station, about 6.20 in the evening—I had with me this carpet bag, containing amongst other things, this book, handkerchief and collar, and a piece of paper contaming my name—I put the bag down by the side of the book-stall and vent away—I returned in about three minutes and it was gone—I next saw it at the Westminster police-court, when I was next in London.

EDWARD JOHN ANGELL . I live at Luther Villa, Beckerton Road—on Saturday, 3rd March, I was a passenger from Exeter; and arrived at Waterloo about 6 o'clock—I missed a portmanteau containing my sample cases—this is it (produced)—I next saw it at the inspector's office, at the Waterloo Station.

RICHARD KENWOOD . I am a plain clothes officer, of the South Western Railway—on Saturday, 3rd March, I was at the Waterloo Station, about. 6.4 in the evening, when the Exeter train came in—I saw the prisoner coming down the platform towards the front part of the train.

Cross-examined. There were a good many passengers by the-train; it was just between the lights, the lamps were lighted—I was on duty there, he passed down towards the front part of the train where the luggage was.

By THE COURT. I knew the prisoner by sight before—I have seen him where on various occasions.

THOMAS WILLIAMS . I am a porter at Willesden Junction—on Monday, 5th March, about 9 p.m. I was there and saw the prisoner on the Up main line platform, he asked me to label a portmanteau for Euston just as the rain was coming in—I noticed that the portmanteau was a very old one, and had on it a great many old labels—it was very much like this—I did not put any label on it.

Cross-examined. I afterwards saw the prisoner at Euston with several other gentlemen, there were seven or eight persons there—I did not know ho they were—I had been telegraphed for, I did not know what for—the

prisoner was sitting down on a form, and two or three others were also sitting down—there was one person within half a yard of him—I don't remember saying before the Magistrate that I was telegraph to see if he was the man I had seen at Willeden—Chown was in the room, it was in the detectives' department.

CORNEIUS JOINER . I was the guard in charge of the Liverpool express due at Willesden Junction at 9 o'clock on 5th March—this portmanteau was put into my van there by a gentleman—I cannot recognise the person—I had no other luggage in my van—when I arrived at Euston it was not claimed, it was taken to the lost property office—I saw it opened, it contained this carpet bag.

HENRY WILLIAM JOLLY . I am an outside porter at Euston Station on Monday, 5th March, about 5 o'clock, I saw the prisoner—he asked me what time the train came in from Birmingham—I said it had just arrived—he said "What time is the next"—I said about 7 o'clock—a few minute afterwards he said "What is the next"—I said 9.15—I then lost sight of him—when the 9.15 train came in, I again saw the prisoner among the passengers.

Cross-examined. I had not got a job at the time I was speaking to him; I had a job after, and when I came back at 7 o'clock the prisoner was on the platform—I lost sight of him after that till 9.15.

JOHN CHOWN . I am a detective officer at Euston Station—on Monday, 5th March, I was on duty on the platform when the 9.15 arrived—I saw this portmanteau on the platform—I took it into the lost property office, opened it and found in it this carpet-bag, containing the collar and other things—on 10th March, about 1.30, I was outside the Euston Station, and the prisoner was pointed out to me—I told him he would be charged with stealing a bag at the Victoria Station, on 24th February—I took him to the detectives office, I gathered five or six of our Euston clerks there—Williams came into the office—I did not know that he was coming—I said to him What do you want"—he said "I have been sent for to identify a man," and he pointed to the prisoner and said "That is the man that put the portmanteau in at the 9 o'clock train at Willesden last Monday night"—I said to the prisoner "You will be charged with stealing that portmanteau from Waterloo this day week"—he cried very much—I almost forget what he said—I know he said that he never was at Willesden in his life, he afterwards said that he had been there two or three times, but he did not know whether he was there on that night; he knew very well that he was out late—he then said "Well, I will tell the truth, I have been working with two or three others, but" he hesitated and said "I will say no more.

Cross-examined. I did not ask him if he knew a pawnbroker living close by, nor did he say "No"—a pawnbroker was sent for, and he came and failed to identify the prisoner, the prisoner told the inspector that he lived at 24, Denbigh Street—I did not go there, the person who did is not here.


9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-347
VerdictGuilty > unknown

Related Material

347. JOSEPH TUNN , was again indicted for stealing a bag, two neckties and other goods, the property of Edward Patten Jackson Second Count—receiving the same.

MR. MOSELEY conducted the Prosecution; and MR. W. SLEIGH the Defend.

EDWARD PATTEN JACKSON . I am a merchant, and live at 14, Orsett

Terrace, Hyde Park—on 24th February, I went to the Victoria Station,. for the purpose of going to Brighton, I got there about 3.53, and took tickets, I had with me two portmanteaus and two bags, which were put on a truck and rolled on to the platform—I gave them in charge to a railway constable, No. 19, to have them labelled—I found that the train did not go till 4.30, and I took my wife a short drive in the park—I returned in about twenty minutes and went immediately to my luggage and missed one of the bags; it was a lady's leather travelling bag, with a waterproof covering, and contained articles of wearing apparel, a book and some jewellery, worth about 42l.

Cross-examined. There were a good many things in the bag.

GEORGE WESTON (Railway Constable 19). On 24th February, I was at the Victoria Station—I saw Mr. Jackson there a little before 4 o'clock, his luggage was on my barrow—he had got his tickets, but the luggage was not labelled—he said "Just keep your eye on these"—I said "All right, I shall be here"—the prisoner was close behind Mr. Jackson, and when Mr. Jackson turned away, the prisoner turned away also; I thought he belonged to him—a few minutes afterwards the prisoner came back and laid hold of the bag—I said "What are you going to do with that"—he said "I am going to take it to my friend in the refreshment room," and he went that way—my attention was called by another witness that it was wrong, and I went after him, but lost sight of him.

Cross-examined. I have a good deal to do, looking after the things and sting them down to the train—the prisoner was close to Mr. Jackson when, he spoke to me, and he returned in three or four minutes for the bag—he had an umbrella with him.

GEORGE YOUNG . I am a porter in the service of the Brighton Railway, at Tictoria—on 24th February, I was on the platform, there standing by my barrow with luggage—I saw the prisoner come and take the bag off the barrow—Weston asked him where he was going to take it to—he said to a friend in the refreshment room—he took it away—I afterwards identified him.

Cross-examined. I saw him in custody on 10th March—I had never seen him before 24th February, to my knowledge.

HENRY GREEN . I am a luggage labeller, in the employ of the Brighton Railway, at Victoria—I was on duty there on 24th February—I saw the prisoner there first, about 3.30, and again at 3.55—I saw him go towards Weston, where the luggage was standing—I turned round and and then saw him coming away with a bag in his hand, about 2 or 3 yards from the barrow—I spoke to Weston—I next saw the prisoner on 10th March, just outside Euston Square Station gates, I was with Sergeant chown—I asked the prisoner if he knew me—he said no he did not, but he should know me if I was in uniform—I said "You remember taking a bag from Victoria on 24th February"—he said "Well, I do not"—then he hesitated and said "I don't remember at all where I was I had been drinking very hard"—I had seen him scores of times before 24th February—I am quite sure he is the man.

Cross-examined. I had seen him scores of times at the station—he gave his address in my presence; I began the conversation by saying "You are the man I am looking for"—he said "What for, I think you must be mistaken"—I said "I am sure I am not"—I then asked him where he was on 24th February, and what he did that afternoon, and he said he could not recollect, that he had been drinking very hard at Charing Cross, with a

friend—I went to his lodging 24, Denbigh Street, that is about five minutes walk from the station; Inspector Coppin searched the house—I remained downstairs; I believe he took away a black bag.

CHARLES TAYLOR (Detective Officer 7). I saw the prisoner at Euaton Station, and told him I should take him into custody for stealing a bag at Victoria Station, on 24th February—he said "I was not at Victoria Station on that day, I was at Charing Cross Station drinking with two of your detectives in the refreshment bar, I got home about 5 or 6 o'clock in a cab"—I then took him to Victoria in a cab and told him he could go in the crowd, and I should stand 2 or 3 yards from him as some persons were coming to identify him—he did so, and Weston and Young went and identified him—I took him to the station and charged him with stealing the bag—he said "The bag I was carrying at Victoria Station that day was my own."

EDWARD KITCHEN . I am an office porter at Victoria—I know the prisoner well—I have seen him there on many occasions—I saw him there on 24th February, between 3.30 and 4 o'clock in the afternoon—he came from the direction of the Lavatory, and looked through the barrier of the departure platform as though he was watching someone down; he had an umbrella in his hand.

HARRISON SCOTT . I am superintendent clerk at Victoria Station—on 24th February, about 3.30 I saw the prisoner there standing on the platform, near the book-stall, he walked straight from the book-stall into the office, had a look round and went out again—he had an umbrella with him, nothing else—I had often seen him before, but never in a train.

ELIJAH COPPIN (Police Inspects, examined by MR. SLEIGH). I took a black Gladstone bag from the prisoner's lodging—I have ascertained that he had bought it—a pawnbroker was sent for who failed to identify him—I took the bag to Euston Station, I did not return it to the prisoner.

GUILTY. Agar, the warder of Holloway prison, stated that the prisoner was convicted in 1863, and sentenced to eighteen months' imprisonment. The prisoner stated that since then he had been in respectable service gaining an honest livingJudgment respited.

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-348
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

Related Material

348. JOHN LASSARADE, Stealing a watch of William Williams, from his person.

MR. WARNER SLEIGH conducted the Prosecution; and MR. THORNE COLE

the Defence.

WILLIAM WILLIAMS . I am a citizen of Melbourne, and am at present staying at 8, Heath Terrace, Lewisham—on the night of 26th March, about 11 o'clock. I was at the entrance of the Cannon Street Station of the South Eastern Railway in company with my cousin—the prisoner came up and spoke to me—I referred him to the officials—as I was passing the barriers constable spoke to me—I felt at my waistcoat and found that my watch was gone, and my chain hanging down, which my watch had been fastened to—I was wearing my coats open—afterwards at the station, at the suggestion of some one, I searched my outside great coat pocket, and to my profound astonishment found my watch there, it is worth about twenty guineas—when the prisoner spoke to me he came close, and brought his person into contact with me.

Cross-examined. I rather think that he had an umbrella in his hand or under his arm—he asked me some question as to the departure of a train—

I had not been more than half a minute at the station—I think I went with my friend into the refreshment-room and ordered something, but left it on the counter and went out to inquire the time of the departure of my train for Lewisham—no one spoke to me in the refreshment-room—I should have returned there but for this occurrence—the prisoner was about 30 feet from me when the constable asked me if I had lost my watch—I felt and said "Yes," and he said "This man has taken it," and he immediatly laid hold of him and we went together to the inspector's office.

Re-examined. The prisoner stood next to me in the office, on my right, very close to me.

WILLIAM CARET WILLIAMS . I lire at New Southgate—I am cousin to the last witness; I was with him at the railway station on the night of 26th March—no one spoke to us in the refreshment-room that I am aware of.

JAMES MEARING . I am a constable and ticket examiner at the Cannon Street Station—on 26th March, about-10.45, I saw the prosecutor and the prisoner coming towards the barrier close together, the prisoner was in front, they seemed to be in conversation, the prosecutor seemed to be stooping down listening to what was said—I saw the prisoner's left hand up the prosecutor's coat and I heard a little bit of a snap and saw a ring fall to the ground; a porter picked it up and gave it to me—the prosecutor went in the direction of the booking-office—I went through a passage, met the prisoner, took hold of him, and asked the prosecutor if he had lost his watch—he said he had—I said to the prisoner "You will have to come with me to the inspector's office "; we went there and waited for my superior—the prisoner was first on the prosecutor's left and then on his right, sometimes close to him and sometimes far away—he was searched, but the watch was not found on him; it was ultimately found in the prosecutor's right hand coat pocket;—I produce it and the ring—at the time the ring dropped there was no one but the prisoner within 2 yards of him.

Cross-examined. I saw the ring drop to the ground and heard it" as well—I was about a yard from the prosecutor at the time—he and the' prisoner then went together towards the booking-office, which was about 15 yards off—after the prisoner was given in charge to the constable 1 went towards the booking-office to search for the watch—the prisoner had an umbrella in his left hand or under his arm, it was his left hand I saw under the prosecutor's coat.

GEORGE BRINGES . I am gas boy in the service of the South Eastern Railway Company—I was at the station on 26th March—I saw the prisoner go and speak to the prosecutor, they got into conversation and walked round the barrier—I followed them—I saw the prisoner's hand against the prosecutor's coat and heard a click and the bow of the watch drop—I saw the ring on the ground, I picked it up and handed it to Mearing—there was no one but the prisoner near the prosecutor, they were close together and they was talked together to the booking-office.'

Cross-examined. I saw the prisoner taken into custody, that was a good way from the spot where the ring was found, about the length of this Court. Samuel Cowell (City Policeman 573). I took the prisoner into custody in the inspector's office.


He also PLEADED GUILTY to having been previously convicted in September, 1866. Agar, the warder of Holloway Prison, stated that he had been fourteen times in custody— Ten Years' Penal Servitude.

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-349
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty; Not Guilty > unknown

Related Material

349. ROBERT MARGARUM (33), and JOHN BOYCE (42) , Feloniously breaking and entering the warehouse of Charles Henry Packman, and stealing 1,700 lbs. of beef, his property.


MR. ST. AUBYN conducted the Prosecution; and MR. PURCELL defended Boyce.

CHARLES HENRY PACKMAN . I am a commission slaughterman, and live at 45, St. James' Road, Holloway—I have a slaughter-house at No 2, in the Cattle Market—the prisoners have been in my employ as slaughtermen, but not at this time—on Friday afternoon, 16th March, at 3 o'clock, I saw seven carcasses of beef hanging in my slaughter-house, and at 6 o'clock on Saturday morning three of them were missing, worth about 54l.

Cross-examined. Margarum had been a sort of foreman—both the prisoners had been in my employ for some years.

BENJAMIN ROSSITER . I am foreman to Mr. Packman—about 9 o'clock on the Friday night locked the slaughter-house door safe; the seven carcasses of beef were all right then.

ALFRED BIRD . lam a carman—on Saturday morning, a little before 6 o'clock, I went to the prosecutor's slaughter-house, where I am employed, and found only four carcasses left, three were missing; I had seen them safe the night before—I went and informed the prosecutor.

JOHN MARGARUM . I am brother of the prisoner and am a carman—on Friday night my brother engaged me to cart some beef from Mr. Packman's slaughter-house to the Stratford Station—I took a van—I found both the prisoners in the slaughter-house when I got there; the door was open—I took away three bodies of beef—the prisoners went with me to Stratford Station, about 6 o'clock in the morning—they unloaded the van and put the carcasses in a truck—we then all came away together and they left meat at the Cock tavern at Highbury—next morning I was taken into custody and afterwards discharged.

Cross-examined. I am in the habit of carrying meat late at night and early in the morning—this was done in the night; I don't know the time, I was not sober—the Central Meat Market is open twice a week till 10 o'clock, on Mondays and Fridays—meat is often carted at that time.

JOHN SALMON . I am goods foreman at the Great Eastern Railway Station—about 6 o'clock on Saturday morning the two prisoners and the last witness tendered me eight quarters and two sides of beef, to be forwarded to Hyde Station, near Colchester—a declaration has to be signed—I asked them for it, and they gave me this paper. (This was from T. Potter to G. Rogers, Hyde Station, Colchester.) I don't know who wrote it, Margarum gave it me—he also signed this consignment note in the name of Greenfield—I loaded the beef, it weighed 17 cwt. lqr. 11lbs.

WILLIAM WHITTAM (Detective Officer Y). On the Saturday morning, about 8 o'clock I went to Mr. Packman's slaughter-house—I found the padlock about 12 yards from the slaughter-house, it had been prised, and the lock broken—I made inquiries and went to the witness Margarum, and from what he told me I went to the Great Eastern Railway Station, Liverpool Street, about 2.45 on Sunday and saw the prisoners on the platform—I went up to Margarum and said " Bob, I am going to take you into custody for breaking into Mr. Packman's slaughter-house and stealing three bodies of beef"—he made no reply at the time—Boyce said "Do you want me, governor"—I said "I don't know yet, Jack. I will let you know"—about an hour and a half after I saw him coming down Hereford Street, Caledonian

Road—I had then had some further conversation with the witness Margarum, and I said to him "Jack, I am going to take you into custody now for being concerned with Bob Margarum in breaking into Mr. Packman's slaughter-house and stealing three bodies of beef which you took to Stratford Station"—he said "I know nothing about it, master, all I know is Bob asked me to go down into the country for a ride to-day and I was going with him."

GEORGE ROGERS . I am a butcher, at Hyde, near Colchester—on Saturday night a railway porter came and gave me some information, in consequence of which I went to the station and found three carcasses of beef—I had not ordered it from anybody—I received a letter concerning it, which I have since lost—I showed it to the station-master, and acting on his advice I took the carcasses to preserve them from spoiling; that is all I bow about it.

Cross-examined. The prisoner Margarum had sent me meat at former times.

BENJAMIN ROSSITER . I marked the carcasses of beef in the slaughter house with a star—I have seen them since, they are the same I killed—I how my own mark.

CHARLES HENRY PACKMAN (re-examined). I went to Hyde and saw the meat at Roger's shop, it was the same I had had in my slaughter-house on the Friday night—when the prisoners were in my service, Margarum was the head man, Royce was under his orders—they had left me about five months.'"

BOYCE received a good character NOT GUILTY .

MARGARUM, Eighteen Months' Imprisonment.

THIRD COURT.—Tuesday, April 10th, 1877.

For cases tried this day see Surrey cases.

FOURTH COURT.—Tuesday, April 10th, 1877.

Before Robert Malcolm Kerr, Esq.

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-350
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

Related Material

350. WILLIAM HARRIS (26) , PLEADED GUILTY to stealing a tobacco pipe, pipe case, and other goods, the property of Charles Smith, from his person, having been previously convicted of felony— Seven Years' Penal Servitude.

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-351
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

Related Material

351. WILLIAM WILMOT (35) , to burglary in the dwelling-house of Augusta Matilda Rose, having been previously convicted of felony Seven Years' Penal Servitude. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-352
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

Related Material

352. JOHN HOWARD (49) , to stealing fourteen spoons, value 5l., of Edward Smith Bridges, having been previously convicted of felony— Five Years' Penal Servitude. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-353
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

Related Material

353. JOHN. GIBBONS (17) , to burglary in the dwelling-house of George Clements, and stealing a box, chessmen, and other goods, having been previously convicted— Eighteen Months' Imprisonment. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-354
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

Related Material

354. HENRY BARKER (26) , to burglary in the dwelling-house of Digby St. Vincent Hamilton, with intent to steal— Eighteen Month' Imprisonment. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-355
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

Related Material

355. FRANCIS HOLTON (47) , to stealing 42 1/2 yards of Alpaca, of Samuel Walkden, having been previously convicted of felony— Seven Years' Penal Servitude. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-356
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

Related Material

356. WILLIAM MURPHY (36) , to feloniously marrying Mary Jane Slater, his wife Isabella being still alive Eighteen Month' Imprisonment . And [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-357
VerdictsGuilty > pleaded guilty

Related Material

357. HENRY BOSTON (20) , to maliciously wounding William Reasey, and assaulting Julia Cowles — Three Months' Imprisonment. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-358
VerdictGuilty > with recommendation
SentenceNo Punishment > sentence respited

Related Material

358. ANNE KING (17) , Maliciously wounding Frances Dalton and occasionally her actual bodily harm.

MR. DE MICHELE conducted the Prosecution.

FRANCES DALTON . I am the wife of Edward Dalton, and live at No. 10, Alfred Square, Shadwell—on the 7th of March my husband and I went to a league, on coming home the prisoner asked me if I was going to pay my rent—I said "It is not your business"—she afterwards came and kicked at my door, and as I opened it she stabbed me in the arm—I said "Oh, I am stabbed, I see the blood rushing," and I heard the knife drop by the prisoner.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. The landlord was not routing with me—The League was for the benefit of a widow—I live in the house.

STEPHEN BROWN . I am a singer and live at No. 10, Alfred Square—on the 6th April when I came home I heard the prisoner ask the prosecutor for her rent—her husband told her to mind her own business as it was not her place, but the landlord's to ask for the rent—the prisoner afterwards went into the back yard and threw stones at the windows, saying before that that she would have her revenge that night before she slept—a minute after she knocked at the door—the prosecutrix opened the door, when the prisoner stabbed her in the arm with a knife—I picked up the knife—I gave it to the policeman.

Cross-examined. I saw you stab her on the landing.

EDWARD DALTON . I am the prosecutrix husband—on the 6th of March my wife and I went to an engagement—on returning as we were going up-stairs, the prisoner said to my wife "Why don't you pay your rent"—I replied—"Mind your own business, it is not your place"—she said "I will have my revenge this night before I go to sleep"—she then went into the back yard and threw stones at the windows and afterwards came upstairs and knocked at the door—the door opened, and she stabbed my wife with the knife—I held her by her two wrists till the constable come.

Cross-examined. You and the prosecutrix did not fight in the kitchen.

DAVID LEE (Policeman K 56). I took the prisoner into custody—I told her the charge—she said "I am cut as well as her"—the prosecutrix had a cut on her right arm—this knife (produced) was handed me by the witness Brown.

GUILTY. Recommended to mercy on account of her youth—Judgment respited

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-359
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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359. ISABELLA SCULPHER (35) , Maliciously wounding Sarah Robinson with intent to do her grievous bodily harm.

MR. DE MICHELE conducted the Prosecution.

SARAH ROBINSON . I am the wife of William Robinson, and live at 78, Lower North Street, Chelsea—the prisoner and her husband live in the next room—at 6.30 on the evening of the 3rd April, I went to fetch some coal—I put it on the fire, and went back to take the shovel and lock the door—the prisoner flew at me and struck me with something a violent blow on the head—I was nothing but blood—she called me a b——cow—I called "Murder"—my husband came—the prisoner's husband came and struck me as well.

Cross-examined. I did not call you a cow.

WILLIAM ROBINSON . I am the husband of the last witness—I was in bed this night when I heard my wife call "Murder"—I got up in my shirt and went outside the room—the prisoner was knocking my wife about—I saw no weapon.

Cross-examined. I knocked your husband away from my wife—I do not how whether I gave him a black eye.

EDWARD WILLIAM POLLARD . I am a divisional surgeon to the police and live at No. 1 Brompton Square—I saw the prosecutrix at the station on Thursday—she had a cut over the eye which went to the bone, and scratches on the forehead and face—the cut would be caused by some sharp instrument.

THOMAS POUNTON (Policeman 3 R 12). I was called by the—witness Robinson and went to 78, Lower North Street—I found the prosecutrix in the sitting room bleeding very much in the forehead—I knocked at the prisoner's door—she refused to open it—on being charged said she did not do it—I took her to the station.

The Prisoner's statement before the Magistrate: "All I can say is I did not use the knife only to open my door. My husband got a frightful black eye which Robinson gave him. He is a quiet man, and never touched her. My face was very bad from her nails. I washed it before the policeman came.

The Prisoner's Defence. If I used the knife—it was not done on purpose. She caught me by the hair as soon as I got to the' door.


9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-360
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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360. EDWARD NOLAN (22) , Robbery on William Savell, and stealing his cap.

MR. GOODMAN conducted the Prosecution; and MR. MOSELET the Defence.

WILLIAM SAVELL . I live at No. 16, Wells Street—I am a sailor—about 8.30 on the evening of the 28th March I was in Gable Street, when the prisoner came and struck me in the face, struck off my hat, and ran off with it; a minute after I turned round, and he was in custody—I never saw him before—I had not been playing with him.

Cross-examined. I do not know where he lived, or what he is—I had not been drinking—the prisoner did not appear to be drunk—I am sure the prisoner intentionally struck me—I did not say to him If the cap fits wear it—I am sure the prisoner is the man who struck me.

ELIJAH VINING (Policeman S 95). About 8.30 on this-evening I was in Cable Street, and saw the prisoner strike the prosecutor in the face, take his cap off his bead, and run away—I' ran after him, and caught him in 50 yards—he became very violent—the prosecutor afterwards came up, and I said I should take him in charge—he said afterwards he had only done it for a lark—the prosecutor and the prisoner were sober.

Cross-examined. I was about 10 yards off—another man was in front of me—I watched the prisoner because I suspected him—they were talking together first, then the prisoner struck the prosecutor a blow, which nearly knocked him over, before he ran off with his cap—a crowd' collected after I apprehended the prisoner, but not before—I have known the prisoner for years.


9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-361
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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361. CHARLES FITZWILLIAM (26), and MICHAEL ELPHINSTONE (22) , Feloniously breaking and entering the dwelling-house of Elizabeth Barlow with intent to steal.

MR. GOODMAN conducted tie Prosecution; and MR. KEITH FRITH the Defence.

WILLIAM SERGEANT (Detective X 425). On the 25th of March, about 20 p.m., I was on duty near Wrexham Lodge, Ealing—I saw the prisoners Talking up and down—I watched them—I saw them go in at the front ate of the lodge and come out again—I saw them go to the front door—they returned to the lodge—I heard a loud' report—the prisoners came

away and stood by the Congregational Chapel, about 25 yards off—I waited for assistance—I afterwards directed police-constable Clark to go the lodge—from information he gave me I took the prisoners into custody—a knife and a latchkey were found on them—I" saw the marks on the door the same evening—this (produced) is the box of the lock—the screw is broken—I told the prisoners I was a police officer—they would not give me any information—this knife would not produce the marks I saw.

Cross-examined. The prisoners did say they had come from London to Ealing to meet a friend—the front gate is a swing gate.

MARY ANN SANDERSON . I am housekeeper at Wrexham Lodge—on the evening of the 25th March I went to chapel at about 6.30—I left the door safely secured—I returned at 7.55, and found the gate open and the door wide open—I was afraid to go in—I saw two youths—the lock was broken—nothing is lost out of the house.

WILLIAM JACKSON (Policeman H 7). On the evening of the 25th of March I went with the sergeant to Wrexham Lodge and found the door had been forced open by some instrument—I found this knife on the sill—the lock had been forced—next morning I found a candle in the garden—I searched, but could not find the instrument which forced the door.

CHARLES CLARK (Policeman X 377). About 7.40 p.m. on this evening I was on duty in St. Mary's Road, Ealing—I saw the detective sergeant and went to Wrexham Lodge—I found the front door had been broken open—I went and told the sergeant, and he told me to follow him, which I did—the prisoners were then going in the direction of the Old Church, walking very sharply—I assisted in taking them into custody—I had previously seen them standing against the Congregational Chapel—that would be after chapel time—before they came out—I was in uniform.


9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-362
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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362. THOMAS WADE (19) , Stealing 1s. money of Peter Cox, from the person of Emma Cox.

MR. GOODMAN conducted the Prosecution.

EMMA COX . I am the wife of Peter Cox, refreshment house keeper, and live at 62, Cable Street. On the afternoon of the 12th March I was with him on Tower Hill—I had a bag with 1s. in it—there was a crowd—while in the crowd I heard some money jingle—I then saw that the prisoner had his hand in my bag—he had worsted mittens on—my husband caught hold of him and held him till a constable came up—the prisoner begged to be forgiven, and asked if he had lost much—I lost 1s.—some people tried to rescue the prisoner—nothing was found on him.

CHARLES VOKES (Policeman H 114). I took the prisoner into custody from Mr. Cox, who was holding him—he asked to be forgiven if he had done the prosecutor's wife any wrong.


9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-363
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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363. ALFRED CHINE (19) , Stealing a purse and an order for the payment of 2l. 2s. and 1l. 16s. of Leon Ranson.

MR. GOODMAN conducted the Prosecution.

WALTER COOMBS . I live at 5, Copley Road, Old Kent Road—I am a porter—on 15th March, about 10.30, I was in East Cheap—I saw the prisoner watch the prosecutor, who stopped to look into a stationer's—I saw him edge himself between the prosecutor and another person—I looked over his shoulder and saw him abstract a purse and pocket-book from the prosecutor's pocket; he held it between his fingers—I caught hold of him and said "I have caught you now"—he made all kinds of excuses that he had

not touched it, and that he did not intend doing anything of the sort, and so on—I took him in charge—he refused to say anything.

LEON RANSON . I am a wine merchant, at 26, Seething Lane—about 10.30 on the morning of the 15th March, I was in East Cheap looking in at a stationer's shop window—I had the purse produced-in my side pocket and 2l. 2s. in it in three half-sovereigns and some silver—I was pushed about and found that the witness Coombs was holding the prisoner—Coombs told me the prisoner was trying to take my purse.

MARK HATHAWAY (City Policeman 738). The prisoner was given into my custody—he said "If I had not been disturbed I would have had the lot."


He also PLEADED GUILTY to a previous conviction, in June, 1875.**— Seven Years' Penal Servitude.

NEW COURT.—Wednesday, April 11th, 1877.

Before Mr. Baron Huddleston.

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-364
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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364. ANDREW WYNESS (30), was indicted for the wilful murder of Robert Cole; he was also charged on the Coroner's Inquesition with the like offence.

MR. WHEELHOUSE, Q.C., with MR. MEAD conducted the Prosecution; and


JANE COLE . I am the widow of Robert Cole, and on 27th February lived at 10, Buckingham Street, Fitzroy Square—we rented two rooms on the first floor, communicating with each other by a door—the prisoner lodged with us in the back room—he and my husband were fellow workmen at the same hair dressers—on Friday 23rd February a woman named Ruth Wilding came to see us for the first time—she was not lodging with us at all—she slept at our house on Monday, 26th—she was barmaid at the George and Dragon public house opposite us—she left her situation on the Monday—on Tuesday the 27th, my husband stopped away from his work, not being well—after dinner he and I and Ruth Wilding went out together—after going to a public-house and having drink we went to my sister's and took tea—then after leaving her house we went to another public-house; all three of us and my sister also—we had some drink there—after calling on another friend I looked in at the George and Dragon and saw the prisoner there—I went in and gave him the key of his room, leaving my husband and Wilding outside—when I came out they had gone away—I went back to the public house to the prisoner—I don't think I had anything to drink—here—after some time my husband came back alone—I asked where he had been—he said what was that to do with me—he stayed there a short time—I had something to drink with him and then Ruth Wilding came in—I gave her a good scolding for going away with my husband—I had had more drink then I had any business to have—we then left the public-house Wilding said she did not know where to go to sleep that night—I said after hat had occured she should not come in my place—my husband said she should and she did and we all four went home, the prisoner my husband and I and Wilding—when we got upstairs I commenced to scold my husband for going away with Wilding after I knew what had occured between them—he had cohabited with her on the Monday morning—I saw it, in by own bed room—I had given her a blanket and pillow to sleep on the couch, and in the morning I found her in bed with my husband and me—when I scolded him he struck me in the eye—he had struck me before we

got home, in Soho Square, and when I cried Wilding said "If he had hit you twice as hard I am sure he would not have hurt you"—the prisoner was not present then—he was when my husband struck me in the room, and he left the room—he did not say anything before he left—I called him back and said "Don't you go out nor go to bed, if any one goes out let this girl go out"—he then came back—my husband gave me another blow because I said she should not stop there, which sent me spinning round the room—the prisoner then said "If you hit her again like that I will hit you, it is something scandalous the manner you have knocking her about lately"—my husband said "Oh, will you"—he said "Yes, that I will"—my husband went to the fire place to get the pocker to strike the prisoner and the prisoner stepped to the head of my bed and got his gun—he belongs to a Volunteer Corps—I had stood the gun there because there was no room for it in the back room—my husband was coming towards him with the poker like this (raised) in his right hand, and the prisoner stood like that with the gun (detailing) holding it by the muzzle with both hands as if to ward off the blow; not pointing it; the butt end was towards my husband—I said to the prisoner "Don't hit him Andrew, hit me instead"—I got between them and got the blow on my head I imagine from the gun and I remember no more—when I became conscious again I felt my husband's forehead was growing cold—he was on the floor—I then became unconscious again—and when I came to again my husband was dead.

Cross-examined. My husband and the prisoner had been the best of friends—my husband was unable to go to work on the Tuesday because he had been drinking, and the prisoner went and begged him off after dinner—there had been perpetual quarrels between my husband and me ever since the Friday night; he had been beating me—the prisoner did not interfere—I always said to him "If you hear us quarrel, never interfere;" I beg pardon, he did interfere on the Sunday night to protect me, but he only said very few words—my husband, I, and the prisoner had been over at the George and Dragon on the Sunday night and my husband and I had words there in consequence of his familiarities with Wilding—she said "I shall be over to-morrow"—I said "Oh, will you, you won't"—my husband told me to hold my noise and I said I should not—she said "I hope you are not quarrelling about me"—I said "That is just what I am doing"—after this we went home and had supper and we had words then, and my husband took up a razor from the mantlepiece and said he was sure he should not be hung for putting such as me out of the way, he said if he could not be master of his own place he would show me, I should either go out or he would do for me; he came very close to me with the razor, and the prisoner fastened him from behind with his hands and pinioned him—he took the razor away from him and told him not to be a fool—seeing my husband coming to strike me I buried my face in the couch and he kicked me most unmercifully at the bottom part of my stomach, he hurt me very much and I cried—he then went to bed, I did not, I was afraid to go—I very likely said to the prisoner that I had had so many narrow escapes I thought he would murder me in the night; I don't know whether I asked him to leave his door open—I laid down in the arm-chair and the prisoner gave me his overcoat to cover me; I stayed in the chair all night—on the Monday morning before my husband went to business he said "If that girl comes here and you refuse her, I am off with her"—she did come to ray place at 6 o'clock in the evening and I knew I dared not refuse her—I told her how my husband had

illtreated me—she said she was very sorry, it should not occur again—I told her I was going to meet my husband at 8.30, and she said "I am going that way," and we both went out and met my husband—we went to a public-house at the corner, not the George and Dragon, and the prisoner came in—we got home about 12 o'clock that night, Wilding with us—the prisoner went into his room—I gave Wilding a blanket and pillow to sleep on the conch—I got into bed and went to sleep and I was awoke by my husband and Wilding having connection in my bed; I tried to push, her out, but they laughed at me, and they did it again in my presence in the morning—I saw the prisoner in the morning before he went to work, I was crying and I told him how my husband had treated me—the prisoner went: to: work on the Tuesday, but my husband remained at home with this woman—on the Tuesday night I went to the public-house opposite and saw the prisoner there, I was crying then; I had just had a smack in the face—I told him that my husband had been beating me in Soho Square, and very likely I said that a policeman bad interfered and that Wilding prevented the policeman locking him up—I can't say whether a policeman had interfered in Soho Square, or that I had threatened to lock him up—I showed him the marks of the hands on my face—I don't remember my husband swearing that he would take my life on the Tuesday night—I did not see him with a decanter in his hand—he had been bound over twice for illtreating me.

RUTH WILDING . I am a single woman, and have been barmaid at the George and Dragon—on Monday night, 26th February, I was in Mr. and and Mrs. Cole's room on the Tuesday morning I saw the prisoner in the hack room—I saw, him again at 10 o'clock on Tuesday night with Mr. and Mrs. Cole at the George and Dragon; Mrs. Cole and the prisoner were drinking together there, they stopped there till closing time, 12.30; I was not with them, I was waiting for Mr. Cole to come and fetch his wife—I got there just past 12 o'clock, I left there about 12.30, turning out time and went to Cole's, lodging—when we got there Mr. and Mrs. Cole and the prisoner had angry words—Mr. Cole slapped his wife's face, and the prisoner aid if he slapped her again he would knock him down; from that they had nigh words, and the prisoner ran to fetch his gun from the head of Mrs. Cole's bed, he was swinging the gun about with the butt end towards Cole—he had hold of the muzzle, I suppose he meant to hit some one with it—Cole had nothing in his hand then; instead of hitting Cole he hit Mrs. Cole, and she fell down with her head cut—the gun dropped and I picked up and went and put it under the prisoner's bed—Cole ran to get the fireirons, but he did not do anything with them—he got the poker and tongs both, but I put them away under the bed—he laid them down after the prisoner had hit his wife, and I put them down again—he had not got them in his hand when the prisoner hit his wife, it was after the prisoner this wife—he took them up after she was hit and then put them down am, and I put them under Cole's bed—Cole then ran downstairs and said he would fetch a constable to lock the prisoner up—a constable came with him, and Mrs. Cole said "Don't lock him up, I could not hurt him—Cole said Very well"—the prisoner said he was very sorry for at he had done, and they forgave him—Mrs. Cole got the blow on the head with the gun which the prisoner had, and she said "Oh, Bob, he has given me my death blow"—and Cole said "I will give him something," he ran to the fireplace to get the fireirons, but they were put away, he could not get them—the prisoner came out of his room and asked me for a

light, I gave it him and said "Are you going to bed"—he said "Yes," and then he came out of his room a minute or two after and asked me where his gun was—I said I did not know—I asked what be wanted it for—he said "Never mind what I want it for, where is it"—I said I would give it him in the morning if he wanted it—he did net say anything so I thought he was going to bed, and I shut the door and put the couch against the door ready to make up the bed to lie on—in a minute or two after that the prisoner turned the handle of the door, and as he found he could not get in easily, he smashed the panel in with the butt-end of the gun—when Mr. Cole heard that he ran and got a glass decanter and stood behind the door with it up like that (describing), ready to strike the prisoner—he held the neck of the decanter—the prisoner forced the door open and broke two legs off the couch—Cole was standing behind the door, and the prisoner had got the gun pointing through the open door; the door was standing part of the way open—I said "Pray put the gun down, don't use such things as them in a quarrel—he said "You get away"—I said "I will, if you put the gun down," and I got hold of the gun and gave it a twist, thinking it would fall out of his hand—he said "You get away, if not I will shoot you," and I drawed back, and as I drew back he fired at Mr. Cole through the door—he could see the position in which Cole stood through the hole that he broke in the panel—he then fired through another different place in the panel, which made two holes—he did not fire two shots, only one, and Mr. Cole fell down on his face from being shot—as soon as I saw him fall I ran downstairs—there were no angry words at the George and Dragon.

Cross-examined. I said to him "Mind the gun; is it loaded?" and he said "Loaded, no; it should not stand there if it was"—that was when he took the gun, before he struck Mrs. Cole—I will swear that Cole had not the poker or anything in his hand at the time the prisoner struck Mrs. Cole with the gun—Mrs. Cole stepped in between them and said "Don't hit him, hit me"—it was when Mr. Cole said "We will give you something" that he seized the decanter and went towards the door—I suppose he seized it to strike the prisoner with—the prisoner could see and hear him through the hole he had broken through the door—there was no struggle at the door—Cole stood there with the decanter in his hand, he did not use it at all—Cole was not very violent, he was only scuffling about the room before he was shot—he tried to prevent the prisoner from coming into the room—he was not trying to prevent him forcing the door open—the couch was there to prevent him coming in—Cole was trying to prevent his coming in, he stood with his toe against the door—the door was forced open—I did not try to take the gun from the prisoner, I tried to turn it away—at that time Cole was standing behind the door with the decanter in his hand, held up—it was immediately after that the gun went off—I did not see Cole kick his wife in the stomach not in my presence, and I was there all the time—I did not get into their bed on the Monday night—I can swear that—I only knew Cole as a customer at the George and Dragon—Mrs. Cole asked me to come down to their house—I swear that I went there at her solicitation—I don't know that she was jealous of me and her husband—she never complained to me—she never quarrelled with me—I don't know what she and her husband were quarrelling about—it was with the prisoner they were quarrelling—Cole said he should not be there, and Mrs. Cole said he should—I suppose Cole was jealous of his wife and the prisoner—I never knew that Mrs. Cole was jealous of me, if she was why should she ask me over—I

did not say I was going over there on the Monday night, nor did Mrs. Cole say "No, you won't," nor did Cole say I should—I went there on the Monday because she came for me twice—I don't know what she wanted me for—I did not go there to lodge—I had left my place, but my mistress gave me permission to sleep there till the Thursday night, but "the house was closed on the Monday night, and Mrs. Cole said "Never mind, Ruth, come and sleep on my couch," and I did so—I swear that on the Monday I slept on the couch the whole night—I never got into their bed—I did not have connection with Cole, I should think not—it is not true that Mrs. Cole woke up and found me there, and that I laughed at her—it is untrue that Cole had connection with me again in the morning—I have been married—I am a widow—my maiden name was Lambert—Cole undressed himself while I was in the room and went to bed in my presence, and I undressed myself in his presence—he remained at home the best part of the day on Tuesday—I was there till 1.30—I was going to sleep there on the Tuesday night—I daresay I should have undressed myself again in the same way—I was going to stop because Mrs. Cole begged me to stop with her—I saw Cole smack his wife's face in Soho Square—he just touched her, that was all, because she sat down and would not get up—he said he thought she was going to faint, and he just touched her playfully on the face to wake her up—I did not hear anything said about a policeman—she had no mark on her face—he never illused his wife while I was there—I had no acquaintance with either of them only by coming to the George and Dragon as customers—Cole slapped his wife's face in the room on the Tuesday, and the prisoner laid he had no business to ill-treat his wife as he did, and if he touched her again he would knock him down—before I went to the house at all Cole and I went together as far as the Green Man—Mrs. Cole did not quarrel with her husband, for going away with me—I did not come back with him—I subsequently joined them, after waiting over an hour—Mrs. Cole did not express anger at my being away with him.

By THE COURT. I said before the Coroner "I took hold of the gun, but could not get it away, he said "you get away or else I will shoot you," I drew back and the gun went off, passing through the door and making a hole in it"—before the Magistrate I said "I went to him and said 'Pray put it down, what do you want to use such things when you are quarrelling, he said you get away or I will shoot you, I moved aside and the gun went off"—I first heard that Mrs. Cole charged me with improper conduct with her husband, since this case has been going on, since I was before the magistrate; I heard that she had said so—I have said to-day for the first time that as I drawed back he fired at Mr. Cole through the door; I saw in take aim—I did not think the gun was loaded at the time—I said at first to-day that I was a single woman; I thought of it afterwards, but did not contradict it; I don't know whether my husband is alive, it has nothing to do with this, and I decline to answer any question about my husband, he is not alive that I am aware of; I wish he was, it is a long time since I heard anything about him—I wish I had never seen Cole.

JOHN WALLIS MASON . I am a registered medical practitioner, and live at 1, Osnaburgh Terrace, St. Pancras—about 2 o'clock on the morning of 28th, I was called to 10, Buckingham Street, and found the deceased Robert cole lying on the floor in the front room first floor, dead—the cause of death was the large loss of blood from the gun shot wound, and the shock to the system—the shot had entered on the left side, a little to the outer

edge of the lip, it had shattered the teeth on that side and the upper palate bones, carrying with it some of the teeth, had crossed over, taking with it a portion of the tongue and emerging about 2 1/2 inches below the right ear, it had cut through the large blood vessels on this side, and also a portion of the lower jaw, shattering the jaw as well, the shot was completely mobile and movable in all directions—it must have gone from above rather down-wards, or if it did not, if the bullet had not penetrated absolutely in that direction it must have been directed, from the structures with which it came in contact, immediately in another direction—the bullet might have suffered some divergence from its first course; if it had taken a direct course I think the butt end must have been elevated, it was a very clean wound in the jaw; there was a contusion on the nose, and three contused patches on the fore-head—the bullet must have passed out of the body, I found no trace of it—there was another wound, an incised wound about 3 1/2 inches long coming along parallel with the jaw-bone, a clean cut incised wound going down to the muscles—I cannot tell what that was caused by—the deceased was about 5 feet 7 inches, or 5 feet 7 1/2 inches high.

Cross-examined. The wound in the jaw was about 1/2 inch deep, it came from the angle of the jaw, just to the border of the chin, the exit of the bullet was a very ragged wound indeed—there was no blood coming from the clean cut—it was not a scratch, it seemed like a clean incised wound as if cut with a knife, or some extremely sharp instrument—the decanter was not broken, it was standing in its natural position when pointed out to me.

THOMAS FAREY (Policeman E 107), On 28th February about 1.15 a.m. I was called by the deceased to No. 10, Buckingham Street—I went up stairs and found Mrs. Cole bleeding from a wound in her head and kneeling on the floor—the prisoner was in his bed-room—Mrs. Cole would not charge him and I did not take him into custody—about 1.30 in consequence of hearing a cry I went again to the same house the prisoner was then in custody of 99, who handed him over to me and went upstairs—he came down with a rifle—the prisoner said "That was what I done it with, but I did not take no aim."

Cross-examined. When I went the first time I said to the prisoner "Mrs. Cole says you struck her on the head with the butt end of a gun"—he said "I did, but I did it accidently"—Mrs. Cole also said it was done by accident.

PHILIP HEPHER (Policeman E 99). About 1.30 on the morning of this occurence hearing cries of "Police "I went to 10, Buckingham Street—I saw Wilding and the prisoner in the passage—I asked him what was the matter—he said "All right policeman, I am not going to run away, I done it, I fired the gun"—Wilding had said "There is a man shot up in the first floor"—I took the prisoner into custody and when Farey came I went up-stairs and found the gun—the deceased was lying on the floor in a pool of blood—I found an empty cartridge in the gun which I gave to Inspector Aunger.

Cross-examined. I heard the prisoner say before the Magistrate that the gun exploded—I did not hear him say that it was an accident.

HENRY AUNGER (Police Inspector). From what I heard I went to 10, Buckingham Street, about 1.45 on this morning—T there found the prisoner in custody and saw the body of the deceased—I examined the room and found two holes in the pannel of the door and I had the pannel removed and brought here—this is it (produced)—I afterwards examined the window frame of the room opposite the place from which I took the pannel, and

found a portion of a bullet or a piece of lead—in the back room I found a (loaded cartridge—I also produce the empty one that was found in the rifle—there were six pannels in the door, this was the middle one, on the left band side coming out of the prisoner's room into the front room—the hinges were on the right coming out of his room.

Cross-examined. The bullet had passed through the pannel.

The Prisoner's Statement before the Magistrate: "I wish that no blame or shame should be attached to Mrs. Cole in any way. I believe it is the general feeling that she is to blame. I did not wilfully shoot him, it was done accidently, the gun exploded while I had it in my hand. I cannot tell what caused it to go off. I had the rifle in my right hand, the butt was on the ground. It could be easily accounted for by the hole in the door. I held the gun in a slanting position. As regards loading the rifle I know nothing about it.


THIRD COURT.—Wednesday, April 11th, 1877.

Before Mr. Justice Manisty.

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-365
VerdictMiscellaneous > unfit to plead
SentenceImprisonment > insanity

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365. AMELIA NORTH (32) , For the wilful murder of George Currie North.

The prisoner had been five times in different lunatic asylums, and MR. JOHN ROLAD GIBSON, surgeon of the goal of Newgate, slated that she was of unsound mind and unfit to plead to the Indictment. The Jury found a verdict of "Unfit to plead "— To be detained during Her Majesty's pleasure.

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-366
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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366. GEORGE GREEN (43) , Maliciously setting fire to some straw in a stable under such circumstances as if the stable had been set fire to he would have been guilty of felony, and with intent to injure.

MR. THORNE COLE conducted the Prosecution.

GEORGE RICHARD MAYOR . I am a mineral water maker, of Lloyd's Row, clerkenwell, and have a stable at Garnault Mews—on 3rd April, about 11.15 p.m., I was called up and went to my stable and saw some man putting out some straw which was on fire—the police inspector afterwards examined the premises with me, and I saw him pick up two matches, which I believe had been struck—I received information and gave the prisoner in custody—there had been a fire there in August last, and a. pianoforte placed over my stable was burnt, at which the prisoner had worked for some years—there was a horse in my stable.

FANNY WAKEFIELD . I live at 9, Garnault Mews—on 3rd April, about 10.30,1 heard footsteps going towards Mr. Mayor's stable, and in less than four or five minutes I heard footsteps returning, running very fast round the corner of my house—about five or ten minutes after that I heard foot—steps come again towards Mr. Mayor's stable, running very fast, just in the same way—they came back again a third time, walking towards the stable, and in a few minutes returned, running very fast and stumbled near my window and went on again—I spoke to my husband, and then got up and went into the other room, opened the window, looked out and heard a match struck—I then saw a light from the match in Mr. Mayor's stable, but it went out—I called out "Mr. Hicks, is that you?"—he is a horsekeeper—I got no answer—I called several times "Who is there?" What do you want?" but got no answer—I stood at the window ten minutes, and all was quiet—I then heard a match struck again in the stable, and the stable was lit up by it, but it went out—about sis matches were struck,

one after the other, and then I saw a regular light in the stable which did, not seem to go down, and I saw a man run out, stooping; he ran round a, van with his head very much down—I called to my husband and went downstairs and heard a man putting his horse in—I called out" Young man do come up, some one has set light to the stable and ran away" Stone got a pail of water and put the fire out.

ELIZABETH GOODEY . I live at 4, Garnault Mews, nearly opposite Mr. Mayor's stable—about 10.30 on this night I saw the prisoner standing in middle of the gateway of the mews, but there is no gate—I looked over his shoulder and saw a piece of paper and some matches in his hand—he went towards Mayor's stable—I then went to my brother's house and knocked at the door, I heald some one running—I did not speak, but stood there and saw the prisoner run by—my brother had gone to bed so I went in doors, and in a few minutes I heard a cry of "Fire"—my husband ran downstairs and I went down and saw the fire in the stable—the prisoner was standing at the top of the mews, looking down to where the fire was, and he got out of the way to let me pass—I caught hold of him and said "You vagabond, what have you been doing of, setting the place on fire again"—he said "I have not done anything; what are you doing of?"—I called my husband, and the prisoner was taken in custody.

Prisoner. It was a pipe in my hand, not a piece of paper.

AMOS GUTRREY (Policeman G 67). On 3rd April, about 11.30 p.m., I was called and some people who were holding the prisoner charged him with setting fire to the stable—I took him to the stable and saw a few sparks there—he said nothing—I searched him at the station and found on him these two boxes of paraffin matches, one empty and one full.

WILLIAM STONE . I am a carman of 6, Garnault Mews—about 10.35 that night the prisoner passed my window and went towards Mr. Major's stable—sometime afterwards I heard Mrs. Wakefield call out—I came down went to the stable and saw some straw alight near the cart in the coach house—there was a horse in the stable—I got some water and put the fire out—I remember the same stable being on fire last August just after I o'clock at night—the workshop over the stable was entirely destroyed—on that occasion the prisoner was standing in a van witnessing the fire.

JAMES MOUTEIE . I am an harmonium maker of 11, 12, and 13, Garnault Mews—the prisoner has been in my employ eight or nine years—on 30th August about 1 a.m. my premises were destroyed by fire—I was at Dover and received a telegram and arrived in London about 2 o'clock on the same day and saw the prisoner—I asked him if he knew anything about the fire and told him it was very strange that he should be larking about the neighbourhood at the time of the fire, and calling my son up after it was extinguished—he said that he had been playing at bagatelle in the neighbourhood—he lived at Wick Grove, Hackney, between four and five miles from my place.

The Prisoner's Statement before the Magistrate was that he did light a match and dropped his pipe, and afterwards went back for it and struck three or four matches trying to find it, and that when Mrs. Wakefield called out he went up the Meivs and stood at the corner, but knew no more about it.

GUILTY The Jury stated that they had discarded all the evidence about the previous fire Twelve Months' Imprisonment.

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-367
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty; Guilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude; Imprisonment > penal servitude

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367. JAMES SMITH (37), GEORGE WRIGHT (18) , were indicted for—b—y; to which WRIGHT

PLEADED GUILTY and was admitted as Queen's Evidence.

MR. STRAIGHT conducted the Prosecution; and MESSRS. BESLEY and GRAIN appeared for Smith; and MR. GOODMAN for Wright.

SMITH— GUILTY .— Penal Servitude for Life.

WRIGHT received a good character—Ten Years' Penal Servitude.

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-368
VerdictGuilty > lesser offence

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368. THOMAS JONES (53) , Feloniously cutting and wounding Ellen Haynes, with intent to murder her Second Count—with intent to do her some grievous bodily harm.

MR. A. B. KELLY conducted the Prosecution.

ELLEN HAYNES . I have been for some time living with the prisoner as his wife at Crown Court, Spitalfields—on the morning of 29th March we were in bed, and I asked him to get up to go to his work—he said "God bless you," and wished me good morning, and I wished him the same and dozed off to sleep again—I was awakened by a blow, and found the prisoner by me with this chopper (produced) in his hand—I took it from him—I was cut and bleeding—I caught hold of his hand and said "What do you mean to kill me?"—he said "Yes I do, you will lock me up"—I said "I will not lock you up if you will get me some water"—I said that to get him out-" side the door—he went out and I never saw him afterwards till I saw him at the station—he was quite sober, he does not drink.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. You did not ask me the night before what you were to do with your things to go to sea with, nor did I say that I did not care—you did not ask me in the morning where you were to get four breakfast from, nor did I tell you you might steal it, we never had a word—there was no quarrel between us.

By THE COURT. I have lived with him just over two years—he was always saying that he had got a ship and asking me to borrow money to get food for him—the chopper was kept in the cupboard in our bedroom.

JOHN HICKS (Policeman H 201). On 29th March, about 7.30 a.m., the prisoner came to the station in a very excited state and wanted to see the inspector—I took him to the inspector, and he said that he had done something—the inspector asked him what he had done—he said "I believe I have killed a woman at 6, Crown Court, I wish you would send somebody there directly"—I went there and found the prosecutrix standing against the door bleeding very much from her ear and head—she gave me this chopper and said that her husband struck her on the head with it.

GEORGE BAXTER PHILLIPS . I am divisional surgeon—I examined the prosecutrix at the station—she had a lacerated wound through her ear, and a wound exposing the temporal bone—the same blow probably inflicted both they—they were not dangerous of themselves—this chopper would inflict them—it is not very sharp, which accounts for the jagged nature of the wounds—it was not into the bone, but it exposed the covering of the bone—not much violence had been used, but it is a very heavy instrument and any blow with it would be serious—the temporal bone is very strong and would resist a good deal of force—I saw the prisoner at the station, but my attention was not specially called to him.

Prisoner's Defence. I am a hardworking man. It is a very hard case all could earn she spent in drink. She has been known to spend 8s. or 9s. in drink.

GUILTY on the Second Count Eighteen Months' Imprisonment.

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-369
VerdictNot Guilty > directed

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369. ALFRED BARKER (37;, Feloniously administering to Susan Emily Barker, a large quantity of poison with intent to murder her.

MR. MEAD conducted the Prosecution; and MR. STRAIGHT the Defence

SUSAN EMILY BARKER . I am the prisoner's wife, we lived at 1, Morpeth Road, South Hackney—we were married in 1866, our family consists of Sarah aged seven, Alfred ten, Susan eight, and the baby Frederick Charles one year and eight months—we have a servant Elizabeth Hall—my father and brother, Mr. and Mrs. Cannon, occupy two rooms on the first floor-my husband is in the employ of Talbot and Alder, oil and colour men of Fen-church Street—his wages were 3l. 10s. a week—on Wednesday, 14th February, he came home and took his tea in the back parlour—we afterwards took supper, and I had some hot gin and water which was supplied from the kettle which was in the room—the servant went to bed before as, about 10 o'clock or it may have been half-past—the prisoner and I went to bed together, and the kettle was left in the room to the best of my memory—I awoke in the morning about 7.30, and my husband was not in the room—it was his practice to get up earlier to attend to the fowls and to wake the servant—while I was dressing he came up and said that he had been down to kill the rabbits—I then went down to prepare the breakfast and found the kettle in the kitchen, where breakfast was laid, it had been left in the back parlour overnight to the best of my recollection—there was a scullery at the back of the three rooms—I rinsed out the teapot with water from the teakettle and then went into the back parlour and took the tea out of the caddy and I put in with it a small quantity of soda—my children then came down and I went back to the kitchen and filled up the teapot with water from the kettle—my husband shortly afterwards came down and I then poured out two large breakfast cups of tea, one small cup, and two small mugs—I put milk into each cup; I cannot remember whether the milk was taken in the day before, but I think it was some of it fresh milk which had been taken that day—I used moist sugar and put some in each cup—I gave some milk and water to the baby, taking the water from the kettle and using some of the milk which remained from last night—I had given the child milk during the night—when I tasted my tea I felt a Borning sensation in my throat—I said that my throat hurt me, and my daughter Sarah spoke of her throat too—I then tasted some bread and bacon and became sick—I gave the baby to the nurse and went into the scullery and was very sick—I told the servant to taste the tea and she did so—Sarah was also sick, and so was my husband; he said that he felt ill—we both agreed to fetch a doctor—the baby was also sick, and so were all the children) except Susan; I do not remember seeing her take any tea—Dr. Fennimore came and told us to leave everything in the same state and order and go to bed—he went away and fetched Dr. Welch—I did not go to bed for an hour or an hour and a half—my husband went to bed, he was in bed with me; he was very sick, and about 7 o'clock in the evening he said "I cannot rest here, I must go downstairs"—I said "You had better stay where you are, dear, you are better in bed"—after dressing himself he sat at the foot of the bed with his head resting in his hands for sometime—he then left the room, and in about half an hour my mother brought him in, he seemed very strange and was shaking violently—he said "Some man has taken me out and he pushed me into the water"—his clothes had been changed sincs he left the room—we have a half puncheon in the garden to collect ram water—I was in bed for a fortnight—the prisoner was worse than me—we

sat up to have oar bed made on Saturday, but we were not dressed for nearly a week—he was taken in custody on 9th March.

Cross-examined. It was about ten minutes or quarter of an hour after I awoke that he came up and said that he had killed the rabbits—he came up to wash, and I left him there when I went down—I found the girl either in the kitchen or the scullery—there is a parlour, a back parlour, a kitchen, and a scullery—when the prisoner came down to breakfast he sat down in the usual way—I noticed nothing particular about him—he ate some bacon and bread, and then drank his tea—the baby was on my knee, close to him, he was very fond of it—we have had a very happy and a very pleasant married life for thirteen years—he has been a very good husband to me, and is a devoted father—we were able to live with comfort, we wanted nothing that was reasonable—he has been twelve or thirteen years with his employers—he was book-keeper there and was held in the highest esteem by the firm—I had had the tea some days, or it might be a week—I kept it in a caddy, which was never locked—I had no carbonate of soda that morning, and used a piece of common washing soda to make the tea draw—I generally have 14 lbs. of soda at a time, I use it for washing, and I took a piece from the cupboard where the tea is kept—when he said "I cannot lie here, I must go downstairs," he had been in pain all day—he complained of pain in his chest and stomach and head, and was very restless—the half hogshead in the yard is flush with the ground, if you walked straight you would walk into it, if you did not take care—I have been to see him every day since he has been in Newgate.

Re-examined. I showed the soda and the tea to Dr. Finni more and Dr. Welch.

ELIZABETH HALL I was in the prisoner's service—on 14th February, when I went to bed I left the kettle in the parlour—my master awoke me next morning at 7 o'clock, and I went down and lit the kitchen fire—the kettle was then on the hob in the kitchen, I filled it with water—there may have been some water left in it, I do not know—I filled it up and put it on the fire—I first saw my master that morning when he came down after I came down—I was then in the kitchen; he put on his boots, and I think he went out in the garden and killed two rabbits—I was in the scullery, cleaning the boots—he had to pass through the kitchen to get into the scullery and garden—he afterwards passed through the kitchen again and went upstairs to finish dressing—my mistress made the tea and poured it out—she did not give me the baby, he remained in his chair—after the breakfast commenced I heard Sarah say "How fanny my throat feels"—I afterwards tasted the tea and it made me feel ill—my master drank all his tea up at once—I was in the kitchen all the time—my mistress told me to fetch the doctor, and as I did so I vomited in the street—Dr. Finnimore came and he fetched Dr. Welch—they afterwards took some milk out of the baby's mug—I was unable to do any work that morning—Susan was able to get up next day.

Gross-examined. There was nobody downstairs when my master called me, and it was after I had been called and gone downstairs that he came flown and went out and killed the rabbits—I think he fed the fowls and then killed the rabbits, he was about twenty minutes, he then came in and went upstairs—the next person who came down was Mrs. Barker—he came down after her—I was at work in the back kitchen and scullery the whole time before my mistress came down—on the evening of that day the prisoner

went out into the back yard and came in wet—he said to the children "Call grandma, I have fallen in the bucket of water"—he was wet all over.

By THE COURT. I went to bed on the evening before about 10.30—my master and mistress were then in the back parlour, and the kettle was in the back parlour—I am sure of that—next morning when my master called me, and I went down, the kettle was on the hob in the kitchen.

DANIEL CANNON . I am Mrs. Barker's father, and occupy with my wife two rooms on the first floor of their house—on 14th February about 10.30 I went downstairs and saw the prisoner to pay him my rent—there was nothing unusual them—he came from the kitchen into the back parlour and I put down the rent on the table—it was the practice for the servant to take in the milk, and I went down and fetched it in the morning—I did so on the morning of the 15th about 7.45 and took it from a jug which was on the dresser—the prisoner and his wife and the children were all sick—I noticed the prisoner's cup; it was empty—I went up to my daughter's cup and she said "Father don't touch it there is something in it!"—I said "No my dear I shall not touch it"—I only took it up to smell it—there was about three parts of a cup full—I took my milk upstairs, there was nothing the matter with it—I have noticed for eight or nine months that the prisoner was a little depressed in spirits to what he formerly had been—I know that he had bought some houses.

Cross-examined. I have lived with them five years in that house and five years in two other houses—he was always in regular steady employ, always on good terms with his wife and family, and on excellent terms with me.

SARAH CANNON . I am the wife of the last witness—he told me what he had seen below and I went down—on the following Monday, the 19th, I was at the prisoner's bedside and said "Of course Alfred you have no objection to this sad case being seen into"—he said "I intend seeing into it myself directly I get well"—on the following Saturday he was sitting by the fire and I said "If you think it is me or grandpa that is guilty say so"—he said "No I don't, if I done it I was not in my right mind"—some time after that I said "I wonder when the case is going to be finished"—he was then downstairs and the police had been communicated with—he said' I suppose it is finished, you are innocent, grandpa is innocent and the girl is innocent, and whoever did it is quite a mystery."

Cross-examined. I am sure the expression he used was "Whoever did it is quite a mystery"—the other expression was "You know I don't suspect you and if I done it I did not do it in my right mind."

JAMES HARLAND FINNIMORE . I am a physician of 3, Malvern Villas, South Hackney—on Thursday, 15th February, I was fetched to the prisoners house, and found all the family except the younger girl suffering from some irritant poison—I ordered everything to be left in the state in which it was and fetched Dr. Welch—I then took samples of the tea from Mrs. Barkers cup, of the milk and water from the child's mug, and only a teaspoonful of water which was left in the kettle, which was all used in the analysis—I was present when Dr. Woodman analyised them—I attended the family Mr. and Mrs. Barker and Sarah, and Alfred were in great danger—the children recovered first—it was some time before Mr. and Mrs. Barker recovered.

Cross-examined. I have read that tea is sometimes faced with green material, and I should think that that green would in some shape or form

be connected with arsenic—soda is applied to tea for the purpose of drawing it—soda would have the effect of seperating arsenic from the tea, but that would not affect the milk and the water.

Re-examined. If green facing is present it shows on the tea—I do not find the slightest colour on this sample, it is black tea, not green—I examined some soda shown me by the police, but found no arsenic whatever in it—all the symptoms were consistent with poisoning by white arsenic—I looked in the kettle for a sediment, but found more—Dr. Woodman analysed it—this sample of tea is from Mrs. Barker's cup, which was three parts full.

WILLIAM BATHURST WOODMAN , M.D. I am an hospital assistant physician and examiner at Apothecaries' Hall—on 15th February, about 1 o'clock, Mr. Finnimore fetched me to 1, Morpeth Road—I saw the family, their sufferings were entirely consistent with poisoning by white arsenio—I filled this bottle (produced) with vomit from the sink in the back scullery—I have analised this bottle of tea, there is only a slight trace of white arsenic in it, but sufficient to cause the illness from which Mrs. Barker was suffering—I examined the milk and water, there was a very large quantity in that, some of which can be seen now in solid crystals not dissolved—I analysed some water from the kettle, there was only about a teaspoonful—it gave reactions with three tests, showing white arsenic—I found a large quantity of white arsenic in the vomit which I took from the stone sink—that arsenic could not have been obtained from colouring matter on the tea I have never heard of arsenic being used in tea; copper is very frequently—I should expect to find a sediment in the kettle if a large quantity was put in—there were no grains of white arsenic in the water procured from the kettle, it was a quite clear solution—it is possible that a person could drink a breakfast cup of the tea without feeling the effects of it before he had finished the draft, it sometimes takes an hour or two before the symptoms come on—there is very little taste, some persons say none at all—I think it has a slight taste—I tried the water with three tests and found the presence of poison, there was a very small quantity of water, the rest was accidentally spilled and I cannot say what the proportion was—there was no green colour in the water—this could not be accounted for by phosphoric paste.

J. H. FINWIMORE (re-examined). The piece of soda given to me was solid; I found not the slightest trace of arsenic in it—I got it from the police—if a large quantity of arsenic was put into the kettle, more than was soluble, we should get a sediment, it depends upon the quantity.

ARTHUR ALBERT MILLS . I am clerk to Talbot and Nalder, oil and colour merchants, of 60, Fenchurch Street—the prisoner was in their employ as book-keeper—I saw some white arsenic in his possession about three years ago; I asked him for some to kill mice and rats, and be gave me some—I can hardly tell how much he had, but certainly under ¼ lb.—in June or July, 1875, I asked him for some more, and he supplied me with some—I do not know that I saw how much he had then, nor do I know what he did with the remainder—on 14th February, I had a conversation with him about emerald green, which is manufactured from arsenic more or less.

Cross-examined. I was making up some samples from bottles we kept in the office—when that arsenic first came into the prisoner's possession the firm were removing from 120, Fenchurch Street, to No. 60, that was eight or nine years ago—it was in a very small brown paper parcel, and it was kept by the prisoner in his drawer for safety I believe—I have no doubt the word "Poison "was on it; I did not have it in my hand—he gave me under an

ounce on both occasions—he was very much trusted by his employers—lie was just about becoming entitled to an annual bonus in addition to his 3l. 10s. a week—I have visited at his house—he always appeared happy and contented.

THOMAS TEW (Detective Sergeant M). On 20th February I went to the prisoner's house and asked him if he could account for the persons who had been poisoned—he said no, he could not, it was a mystery—I afterwards went to his employers', some keys were given me, I searched some drawers which were pointed out to me, I found no white arsenic, but some salts of lemon—I took him in custody on 9th March and charged him with attempting to destroy his own life and his wife's and four children's by putting white arsenic in the teakettle—he said "I am innocent"—when he was waiting to go before the Magistrate he volunteered a statement—nothing had been said to him before—he said "I have had a deal of trouble since I got married, my eldest daughter has been ill for some months, then my wife, my father-in-law having been in a mad-house, and now this; there is One above who saw me through those difficulties and I am sure He will see me through this," or "these"—I said to him at the station "Have you anything to give me, have you a knife?"—he said no, they keep them from me."

THE COURT considered that there was no reliable evidence upon which Mr. Straight need address the Jury.


9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-370
VerdictsNot Guilty > no evidence

Related Material

370. ALFRED BARKER was again charged upon three other indictments with feloniously attempting to murder three of his children, and on a fourth indictment with unlawfully attempting to commit suicide, upon all of which Mr. Mead offered no evidence.


9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-371
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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371. ROBERT BROWN (26), and GEORGE HARFORD (27) , Rape on Kate Murphy.

MR. DIXON conducted the Prosecution.


FOURTH COURT.—Wednesday, April 11th, 1877.

Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-372
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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372. JAMES WALTER STEVENS (32) , PLEADED GUILTY to obtaining by false pretences 1l. from William Chain— Two Months' Imprisonment.

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-373
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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373. JOHN CRAWLEY (23) , Feloniously wounding Hannah Foley, with intent to do her grievous bodily harm.

MR. GRIFFITHS conducted the Prosecution; and MR. SIMS the defence.

HANNAH FOLEY . I live in Market Street, Newport Market—I was in service at the Noble Arms—I am eighteen years of age—I was sent away about the 8th of March because the prisoner slept with me—I had known him about six months—I have not known any other man—I was dismissed on a Thursday, about 9 o'clock—I went to live in Princess Row with a friend of mine—I saw the prisoner outside the Noble Arms that evening about 10 o'clock—I was going to look for a place to sleep—the prisoner punched me in the face, knocked me down, and kicked me in my stomach three times—he did not speak but he followed me—I asked a policeman to stop him and he did so—I then went in search of my friend Priscilla Chapman, and walked about wit!) her for an hour—when we got to her room the door was burst open—she went up to the room and then came down and got a policeman—she said to me the prisoner was there—the policeman took him

into custody—he was discharged on the following day—on the Friday morning about 12 o'clock the prisoner spoke to me—he said "I mean to settle you"—I saw him again in Priscilla Chapman's room—he came and burst open the door—he then hit me in the eye—I saw him again on the Saturday—he assaulted me again after 12 o'clock that day and ran away—in consequence of what he did to me then I went to the hospital—on my way to the hospital the prisoner again assaulted me—he then kicked me in my privates—my ear was then sore from his having kicked it—I had to have it stitched up—when I came out of the hospital the prisoner came up and struck me again, when my brother interfered.

Cross-examined. I had been at the Noble Arms about three weeks—I had known the prisoner about six months—before I went to the Noble Anns I lived with Mrs. Rush, Dean Street, Soho—I lived with,. Chapman before I went to the Noble Arms, for about a week—I have known her for twelve months—she is an unfortunate—I am not an unfortunate—the prisoner introduced me to the Noble Arms—he did not beg me to have nothing to do with Chapman—I went with Chapman to a public-house and drank with her, the prisoner did not ask me not to do so—he did not beg me to try and get another situation—another girl, Polly King, was present when the prisoner broke open the door—some young men, his companions, were with the prisoner—no other man has ever committed an assault upon me—I did not threaten to send the prisoner to prison, I was too frightened—I did not call Polly King before the Magistrate; I told the Magistrate the prisoner kicked me in the ear; he did so when I was down—I was talking to William Farr on the Saturday night—I said before the Magistrate that I was not standing by a young man who seduced me, not that I was not standing by a young man—I said I stood by the side of Billy Farr—I did stand by him.

PRISCILLA CHAPMAN . I lived in Princess Row, in March—I was near the Noble Arms on the 8th of March—I had been to the Middlesex Music Hall with a young man, I saw the prisoner Foley there—I saw the prisoner outside; he kicked the prosecutrix in the stomach twice whilst standing—she screamed—she came into the public-house, the prisoner followed and said "Why did you send her in those fits"—when the house was closed they all came out—I was going to take the prosecutrix home, she said she had been disgraced—the prisoner said "If you take her home I will stick a kenife into you or anybody that interferes. I'll rip them open"—I missed them for a minute and then saw a policeman stop the prisoner, and I went home with the prosecutrix—when we got there the prisoner was there drunk and sitting in a chair with a young woman I used to know—I had padlocked the door, but the lock was broken off—I called a policeman and gave him into custody—the next evening the prisoner came to my room and broke it open again; Foley was then with me—he kicked Hannah Foley in the eye—I went for assistance—on the Saturday, about 12.10 at midnight, I was going to my room I saw a light, the prisoner was there—Foley had not come home then—the prisoner threatened me with a shovel—I came away.

Cross-examined. I do not live in Princess Row now—there were several chaps in the Noble Arms on the Thursday with the prisoner, I do not know them—the assault occurred in the street—I did not speak to a constable then, it was about four hours after—I had been looking for Foley—a girl called Louey Owen was with her then, but no other girl—Polly King was

on the Friday night at my room when the prisoner came, she was with a young man—I do not know him.

WILLIAM FARR . I live at New Compton Street—on Saturday night, the 10th of March I was called to Princess Row; the prisoner came and struck Foley, which knocked her down—I did not see him kick her; this was after 12 o'clock—her ear bled—I went with her to the Charing Cross Hospital, I waited till Foley came out—I saw the prisoner again in St. Martin's Lane—Foley screamed when she saw him coming towards her, her brother rushed at him and struggled with him—I did not see the prisoner do anything to Foley then, but he rushed at her when we came out of the hospital—my brother, David Farr was called before the Magistrate—he was with me.

JEREMIAH FOLEY . I am the brother of Haunah Foley, I live at Market Street, Newport Market—I met my sister coming from the hospital this Sunday morning, and saw the prisoner try to strike her, and I knocked him down.

Cross-examined. I might have said before the Magistrate "I was taking my sister home; we met the prisoner; he made a rush at her, then he made a blow at me."

JOHN KINGSTON . I live in Seven Dials—I was in Princess Row, on the night of March 10th, and saw Foley, the prosecutor, and the prisoner there—the prisoner struck at Foley's forehead, and she fell down and cut her ear on the railings, I did not see him kick her—a policemen picked her up and brought her as far as Princess Court, and asked me to take her to the hospital—I did so, her face was bleeding very much—I waited till she came out.

Cross-examined. I had not seen her ear bleeding before she fell.

Re-examined. There is no pavement where she was knocked down.

GEORGE ARTHUR DAY (Policeman C 19). I took the prisoner into custody on the 11th March, I told him I had a warrant against him for assaulting Hannah Foley, on Saturday night—he said "I was coming to get a warrant against her brother for assaulting me."

DR. WILLIAM PRICE . I am a surgeon at the Charing Cross Hospital, I examined the prosecutrix on Sunday morning, the 11th March—she had a lacerated wound on the left ear, partially severing the lobule from the ear—a kick would cause the wound—I dressed the wound—I made a further examination on the Monday, and found she had bruises on her arms and legs, and the lower part of her abdomen, such as would be caused by kicks.

Cross-examined. The wound might of course be caused by a fall against a bard substance, such as the edge of the railings—the prosecutrix only complained of her ear on the 11th—many of the bruises may have been of long standing.

Re-examined. A fall against something projecting would produce the wounds on the abdomen—in my judgment the wounds were produced by kicks.


He was further charged with having been convicted of felony in April, 1868, to which he

PLEADED GUILTY**— Ten Years' Penal Servitude.

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-374
VerdictNot Guilty > no evidence

Related Material

374. CHARLES CLARK, Stealing 10l., and other monies belonging to himself and partner.

MR. BESLEY on the part of the prosecutors offered no evidence.


9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-375
VerdictGuilty > unknown; Guilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude; Imprisonment > penal servitude

Related Material

375. EDWARD CAIN (40), and WILLIAM WAUGH (20) , Robbery on James Banks, and stealing his watch and chain.

MR. FULTON conducted the Prosecution; and MR. SIMS defended Cain.

JAMES BANKS . I am a coffee-house keeper, and live at 26, Gower Place, Easton Square—upon the afternoon of the 27th March, about 2.45, I went into the African Chief, in Somers Town, and there met Cain's brother—I bad previously known him—the prisoners were there—I remained three-quarters of an hour—I treated them—I wanted a cab; Cain's brother fetched a four-wheeler—Cain and I got in—we drove away and stopped at the Rising Sun, in Euston Road—I had 3d. worth of brandy, and Cain a glass of ale brought to the cab; Cain had asked me what my watch and chain were worth at the African Chief—I said 20l.—I took it out in the cab while it was waiting at the Rising Sun—we then drove on—in Grafton Street, I received a blow in my face, and another on the top of my head—I had two black eyes; Cain gave me the blows—he and I were the only persons in the cab—I had 25l. in my pocket—we struggled; I felt a tug—the cab was stopped—I missed my watch; a policeman came up—we drove to the station and then got out—the constable walked by the side of the cab; I told the inspector Cain had robbed me, but he declined to take the charge; I was in liquor—this (produced) is a part of my chain—it dropped from my waistcoat button when I was standing in the station.

Cross-examined. I treated the men to whisky, I never drink it myself; four or five men were there—I have known Cain and his brother for some time—Cain's wife has worked as charwoman for us for five or six years—I told the Magistrate I had a blow on the nose; that gave me the black eyes—I was sitting on the back seat inside and the prisoner was sitting opposite—the window was broken in the struggle—I looked at my watch to see the time when we got in the 'cab at the African Chief, I saw it while we were stopping at the Rising Sun; I said so before the Magistrate—I did not charge Cain till we got to the station—I was not charged at the station with being drunk—the officer picked up off the floor the piece of chain—that was not when I first accused Cain of robbing me—I did not quarrel with Cain in the cab nor say "I have got you alone"—I never thought of striking Cain; I believe I did strike him, I never said I did not; I only struck him in my own defence in the scuffle once or twice—no complaint has ever been made against me as a coffee-house keeper.

Re-examined. I charged the prisoner directly we got to the station with having stolen my watch and chain.

RICHARD BROWNING . I am a cabman, ray number is 1,626—I live at 12, Cooper's Buildings, St. Pancras—on the afternoon of March 27th I took up a fare at the African Chief at the corner of Chapel Street—Cain called me as I was coming down the road; I know him by sight—they were all drinking and I had to wait some time—Banks and Cain got into the cab—as I started I noticed Waugh on the pavement—I drove on till we got to the Rising Sun, about 150 yards off; when we stopped I saw Waugh again; he had followed us—another young man was with him—we drove on after a while—my attention was attracted by a noise in the cab when we had gone about a quarter of a mile—I heard scuffling and saw Cain's elbow come through the window—I stopped the cab and got down—I saw Waugh running away—I saw Cain hit Mr. Banks twice, once on his right eye and once on his nose; that was after the men were running away—I gave a boy a penny to fetch a constable while I held up Banks by the collar—I went to the

station, where both prisoners were locked up—I saw the prosecutor's watch at the African Chief; he took, it out to see how long I had been stopping; he did the same at the Rising Sun; I saw it there.

Cross-examined. The place where I took up my fare and the public-houses are near together—I heard the scuffle going along—it was the front window of the cab which was broken—Cain did not get out till we got to the station.

Cross-examined by Waugh. I saw you first in the African Chief.

JOHN PEARCE (Policeman 94 E). About 3 o'clock on the afternoon of 27th March I was called to Grafton Street where I saw a cab and the prosecutor and the prisoner Cain in it; I took it to the station—the prosecutor was the worse for liquor, and was bleeding over the left eye—while in the station a piece of chain dropped—I asked the prosecutor whose it was—he then accused Cain of taking his watch and chain—Cain said "I have not got the watch on me," and began to pull his clothes off in the station.

Cross-examined. Cain did not say he had not stolen the watch, but that he had not got it—there was no charge made till the piece of chain fell—I had them in charge for being drunk and disorderly—Cain was charged with stealing the watch and chain that night, but it was not taken till the next morning, because the prosecutor was drunk.

HENRY AUNGER (Police Inspector E). I was on duty at the Tottenham Court Road police-station on 27th March—the prosecutor and the prisoner Cain were brought there by 94 E, and charged with being drunk—the prosecutor said the prisoner had stolen his watch—then Cain commenced taking off his things—I did not take the charge of stealing that evening, because they were both excited, and the cabman, the only witness, had gone—I sent for the cabman next morning; he came, and the charge was then taken read and over to the prisoners, who made no reply.

CHARLES TAYLOR (Detective Officer 7). I was present at the African Chief on the 27th and saw the prisoners there—I saw the prosecutor and Cain go away in a cab—I saw Waugh run after the cab till they drove out of sight—I apprehended Waugh on the 29th March from information I received—I told him he was charged with being concerned with Cain in stealing a gold watch in Grafton Street—he said "Why don't you take young Lander? he went up to the window and I was behind the cab"—he was identified at the station as being one of the men—I had seen Lander at the African Chief, but did not see him run after the cab.

RICHARD BROWNING (re-called). The cab is not mine, it belongs to a master—I do not wash it; I sent it to the police-court—no watch was found.

CAIN— GUILTY **— Ten Years' Penal Servitude.

WAUGH— GUILTY * Five Years' Penal Servitude.

FIFTH COURT. (Held in the Grand Jury Room).—Wednesday, 11th, April, 1877.

Before Mr. Recorder.

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-376
VerdictGuilty > lesser offence
SentenceImprisonment; Imprisonment

Related Material

376. CATHERINE TOBIN (27), and ELIZABETH THOMPSON (24) , Robbery on Robert Jackson, and stealing from his person 7s. 6d.

MR. TICKELL conducted the Prosecution; and MR. AUSTIN METCALFE

the Defence.

JAMES MATTHEWS . I live at the Wells Street Home, and am a sailor—on

the 5th April, about 8 o'clock, I was with a man named Robert Jackson—we came out of Wells Street into Cable Street, where we saw the two prisoners—Tobin laid hold out of Jackson round the neck, and put the other here (pointing to his trousers pocket)—she was hustling and shaking him about—he sang out "Police"—Thompson ran up and laid hold of him by the coat, and hit him with the other hand—I cannot say how long she held him—Tobin ran away—I stood and looked on—when I next saw her she was lying up the street, and the police had hold of her—I walked up gently after—I did not hurry myself.

Cross-examined. I was sitting with Jackson—we were yarning together at the Home, and he asked me to go out for a stroll—I do not know when he was paid off from his ship—he had not told me—I had not seen his money—I had not been drinking with him—I saw a policeman come up and lay hold of Tobin after striking Jackson.

ROBERT JACKSON . I am a seaman stopping in Rose Court, Aldgate—I was with Matthews at the time in question—when we came out of the Wells Street Home we saw the prisoners standing together, and Tobin came and put her arm round my neck and took what money I had in my pocket—I caught hold of her dress, and Thompson took hold of me and kept striking me to make me let her go—I was forced to let her go, but a policeman came up and got hold of her, and I ran after Thompson—I had 7s. 6d. in my pocket—there were a few coppers.

Cross-examined. I came from the Kylos barque, and was paid off on Thursday—the same day I was assaulted—I received 1l. 7s. 6d., and had just come from. St. John's, New Brunswick—I looked at my money in the Sailors' Home—I had 7s. 6d. left—I had spent some—I did not show it to Matthews—I knew the money I had—I was sober—I paid a bill of 10s. to my landlady, and I think 3s. or 3s. 6d. for this hat—I had 12s. given me besides what I was paid—I had had just a glass—I had never seen the prisoner before—I could not help Tobin putting her arm round my neck—as soon as ever she done it I had hold of her, and sung out "Police!"—she put her other hand in my pocket—while her arm was round my neck I held on to her dress as long as I could—I had a 2s. piece, a half-crown, coppers, &c.—Thompson punched my head—it is ten months since I was in London—I was not staggering along.

Re-examined. I know my money was safe when I left the home—this occurred immediately after I left the Home—I am certain I felt Tobin's hand in my pocket.

WILLIAM SHERRINGHAM (Policeman H 28). I was standing at the corner of Wells Street when I saw a scuffle in Cable Street between the two prisoners and the last witness—the prisoners were striking away while at him—I saw H 241, and called to him—when I got up Thompson had hold of Jackson striking him—Tobin ran up. Leman Street—I followed and caught her under the railway arches—I found she had something in her right hand she then fell on the pavement—I struggled with her for about two minutes, and took 1s. 3d. out of her hand—H 241 came up with Jackson, and he said he should charge them with robbing him—they made no answer.

Cross-examined. I caught Tobin at about 30 or 35 yards off from where I saw the scuffle going on—I found no 2s. piece on her—she was searched at the station—Jackson was perfectly sober.

WILLIAM BURKE (Policeman H 241). I was at the corner of Wells Street

Cable Street, at the time in question—Thompson had hold of Jackson by the back of the neck punching him—Tobin was then running away up Leman Street—I took hold of Thompson, and she let go of the sailor, and he ran after Tobin—when given in charge they said they were not there at all.

GUILTY of assault with intent to rob.

TOBIN also PLEADED GUILTY to a previous conviction in May, 1875.

TOBIN— Twelve Months' Imprisonment.

THOMPSON— six Months' Imprisonment.

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-377
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment; Imprisonment; Imprisonment

Related Material

377. HENRY WILLIAMS (21), EDWARD HIDE (19), WILLIAM SMITH (22), and HENRY THOMAS (17) , Burglary in the dwelling-house of Richard Charles, and stealing therein 5 cwt. of butter, and other articles.

MR. PURCELL conducted the Prosecution.

RICHARD CHARLES . I am a chessemonger, at 282, Hackney Road—on the morning of the 27th February, at 1.45, I was aroused by the police—I went downstairs and found the house had been broken into and the prisoners in charge—on going to the stable I found six boxes of butter, three baskets, three firkins, and a tea-caddy, my wife's sewing machine, and a top coat, which had been in the house the night before—the house is at the back of the shop.

EMILY GARNHAM . I am a servant to Mr. Charles, I locked up the backdoor the night before—in the morning I saw some things had been removed from off the table in the kitchen into the drain in the yard—the kitchen window was shut when I went to bed, but there was no hasp—I vent to bed last.

SAMUEL HARE . I am an assistant to Mr. Charles—I won't be certain whether I closed the stable door on the night of the 26th February, when I went out, because I was in such a hurry to get home—it was about 11.30.

Cross-examined by Williams. I did not state at Worship Street, that I left the place open for you to get into.

Hide. He left the window half-way open.

RICHARD CHARLES (re-examined). It was found that way when we were roused up.

SAMUEL HARE (re-examined). I had to do with the stable and the house—I did not leave the door of the house open or the window—there is no catch on the window, and no board or shutter to it—I board in the house and lodge in York Street, opposite—I left the house about 11.55 that night—Emily Garnham was up then.

AUGUSTUS WHITFIELD (Policeman H 8). At about 1.45 on the morning of the 27th February, I tried the back gate of the prosecutor's premises which I found insecurely fastened—I fetched 163 H on the beat, and returned with him and coming up Bath Road, at the back of the premises I heard the gate open and found it pulled against me—I eventually pulled the gate open and found the four prisoners inside—I asked them what they were doing there, and they said they had come there to sleep—I said I did not feel satisfied with that, and should want to know some more about it—they made a rush towards the front part of the premises followed by me and 163—I roused the prosecutor and we found the butter in the stable which had been removed from the front premises—I examined the doors an a windows—there were no marks on the windows, but there was a piece of board on the window sill of the kitchen which was dirty as if

it had been trodden upon—the inference I drew was that they had got in at the window.


WILLIAMS and SMITH also PLEADED GUILTY to a former conviction.

WILLIAMS— Eighteen Months' Imprisonment . SMITH— Fifteen Months' Imprisonment. HIDE and THOMAS— Six Months' each.

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-378
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

Related Material

378. EMMA CARPENTER (32) , Unlawfully concealing the birth of her female child.

MR. AUSTIN METCALFE conducted the Prosecution.


9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-379
VerdictGuilty > lesser offence

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379. SANTIAGO OYARCON (32) , Feloniously wounding Mary Ann Smith, with intent to do her grievous bodily harm.

MR. DOUGLAS METCALFE conducted the Prosecution.

MARY ANN SMITH . I live at 7, Albert Street, Highway, Shadwell, and am a prostitute—the prisoner slept with me last Thursday night—he gave me two silver shillings in English, and one Spanish shilling and he told me he should have no more till Saturday, when the captain paid him, when he would give me some more—I saw him on Saturday, about 10.35—he came into the Prince Regent public-house where I was, and asked him first for a drink—he said he had no money, and then said he had a shilling, and told—me to get a drink with that; I asked him for the money he promised me on Thursday, and he said he had none—I asked him what made him promise me on Thursday, that he would give it me on Saturday, and he said something in Spanish, that I did not understand—I walked alongside of him a little way along St. George's Street, and asked him again if he intended to give me my money, and with that he pushed me and I fell down and got up again, and he pushed me down again and kicked me in the eye and on the body—I caught him by the collar of his coat and called "Police"—he put Ms hands to my throat to choke me—a female coming past took his hands away from my throat—I then saw the blade of a knife in his hands, and I went to flinch back, and as I fell I found I had got a cut over the eye and he made off and I saw no more of him—I was taken to the hospital—I could not swear to the knife if I saw it, it was in a dark place.

ELIZABETH SCANLAN . I live at 17, Albert Square—last Saturday evening the prisoner and the prosecutrix in the Highway, Shadwell, at about 12.5—when I went up the prisoner had the woman by the throat—I I asked him to leave go of her throat, and he did after a little while, and he struck and kicked her, and she fell down, and she got up and took hold of him by the collar of his coat, and asked him to give her the money he owed her, and he might go where he liked—I could not understand what he said to her—then he knocked her down—that is all I know of it—I observed some blood about her when she was picked up—I helped to pick her up—the blood came from a wound in her forehead—I did not see a knife.

JOSEPH SERGEANT (Policeman KR 49). I took the prisoner into custody on board the Calderon, Spanish steamship, and told him the charge—he said the prosecutrix caught hold of him, and he pushed her down—that is all I could understand him to say—he produced this small knife from his pocket on my asking him if he had a knife about him.

JOSEPH NEEDHAM . I am house-surgeon at the London Hospital—the prosecutrix was brought there a short time after 12 o'clock on Saturday last—I examined her and found her body bruised, first on the side, and secondly on the head in two places above both eyes, more especially on the

left, that being the more severe—there was also a laceration, or incision I should say—it had very clean edges and was perfectly straight—it was deeper immediately above the eye than it was higher up—further above the eye it became shallow—it would be caused by any sharp material—the knife produced is quite capable of causing such an injury—it might because a fall on some sharp material, but not on the road unless there were some sharp flints there; not a kerbstone—any sharp stone would produce such a wound—it is very difficult to say that it was done by an instrument, because there were bruises—I should not like to say—more likely by a knife than a stone certainly—it was not a punctured or a lacerated wound—the edges were so clean that they have already healed.

Prisoner's Statement before the Magistrate: "I threw her down when she held me. I did not use a knife. I had none on shore with me."

Prisoner's Defence (interpreted). All that the prosecutrix says that happened at first in the street is perfectly true, but as to kicking her on the ground or having any weapon about me is altogether a falsehood. The last time that she came and caught hold of me was when my witness at the police-court came up and separated her arms from me.

Witness for Defence.

DOMINGO ROCCA (interpreted). I was with the prisoner going along the street at the time in question—the proaecutrix took hold him by the collar and tie—I pulled her hands away—the prisoner and I then walked on—she crossed the road and caught hold of him again, and he pushed her and she fell down—when they got on to the pavement a little further on she came and caught hold of him again—I did not interfere any more—she fell down on her left side on the ground—I made my way as best I could, and walked slowly along, the prisoner and I parting—I did not see him again till the crew mustered on board ship—I saw no blood at all.


Prisoner. When I was paid off from my ship about 12 months ago I met this woman, and spent all the money I had (30l.) with her in about 6 days. I have been away since that time, and just arrived again and found her. I had no illwill against her, and had no knife about me, it was on board ship; a knife I use for cutting stiches when repairing or cutting tobacco; it is rusty, and I never use it for any other purpose.

MARY ANN SMITH (recalled). I knew the prisoner after the last voyage—he had been staying with me as now—he used to pay me the same as any other friend—I believe he had been away about nine months that voyage—I I do not know how much he had—he came and looked for me when he came back this time on the Thursday—he went to some public-house first.

GUILTY of unlawfully wounding Eight Months' Imprisonment.

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-380
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

Related Material

380. HENRY SEWARD (38) , Unlawfully obtaining goods by false pretences from Samuel Swinson, and Kenneth Atkin Ling.

MR. BRINDLEY conducted the Prosecution.

SAMUEL SWINSON . I am a tailor living at 5, King Street, Hammersmith—my father is the proprietor of the shop—the last Wednesday in July the prisoner came to our shop and saw me—he asked if Mr. Swinson was in, and I said I was his son and could transact any business with him—he said "I am Captain Seward, and your father has worked for me before"—he said he wanted some clothes and I showed him same things, and he choose a suit and said he had not long been home and that he was rather seedy, I

or something to that effect, and that he wanted his things, and would I let him have them in the week—he ordered an entire suit, and they where sent to his address at Elizabeth Cottages—I delivered the coat—I did not see him again until he was in custody—I supplied him with the goods because be represented himself to be Captain Seward, and my father had worked I for Captain Seward previously—and I parted with the goods entirely in that belief—they came to five guineas—he obtained 3 yards of cloth, which is not in the indictment, but it was explained to the Magistrate.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. You sent a man for the 3 yards of cloth—the goods were delivered at your address, and when I called the party told me you never lived there but only called for parcels—you did not tell me you where the son of Captain Seward, of the Royal Navy and required credit for accommodation.

JAMES SWINSON . I am the father of the last witness—some years ago I had a customer of the name of Seward who traded at my shop—the prisoner is certainly not that person—I never saw him until he was in custody—he never had goods at my shop before, and I know nothing of him whatever.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. I do not recollect your father, Captain Seward—I supplied Captain Seward with goods, but not your father.

By THE COURT. I know prisoner is not the son of Captain Seward, because Captain Seward was a young man—an errand boy delivered the trousers and my son delivered the coat.

KENNETH ATKIN LING . I live at Apsley House, South Wimbledon—and assist my father Robert Bracy Ling, a draper—on the 19th October the prisoner came to my father's shop and asked for some boy's clothing—I showed him a boy's trousers, jacket, and vest, and some boots after that—he said he was Mr. Seward, and was recommended by Mr. Argent, of Clapham—whom we knew very well as having lodged with my father—I let him have three pairs of boots and a suit of clothes—believing he was sent by Mr. Argent, of Clapham—I delivered the goads myself to the address he gave which I took down as 38, Hartfield Cresent.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. I delivered the goods at your house to your wife—nothing was said about credit—they were to be paid for on delivery, and I asked for the money—they said Mr. Seward was out—I left them.

EDWARD ARGENT . I live at 28, Rayner Street, Battersea, and am a tailor—I know Mr. Ling quite well having lived with him for twelve months—I never saw the prisoner till I saw him at the police-court—I never desired anyone to go and use my name.

JOHN FULLER (Policeman B 25). I went to the prisoner's house on Sunday, the 22nd October last, with a warrant signed by J. Bridge, Esq., which I read to him charging him with obtaining some boy's clothes and three pairs of boots—he said "Oh! I be bound to say those tradesmen would swear to any b——y lie"—I think the words were—I took him to he Court the next day (the 23rd) and he was remanded till the 30th—the next day (the 24th) I found these boots (produced) at his place—on the 30th he was remanded at the Wandsworth police-court for me to produce him on the 31st—and on the 31st I handed him over to Seymour—I afterwards attended on the 7th November, and the prisoner was gone.

ALBERT JOHN SEYMOUR . I live at Elizabeth Place, Wandsworth—on the the 7th November I was gaoler at the police-court Hammersmith—I had been at Wandsworth and Hammersmith over 21 years—I received the prisoner

from the van sergeant in the usual way from the House of Detention under remand—before he was to be taken before the Magistrate he was put into a room we call the strong-room and from there he made his escape and I got discharged through it—I have got a wife and eight children and have never earned a shilling since—I should have been entitled to a pension.

JOHN. JONES (Detective Officer, 5th Division, City Police). I apprehended the prisoner on the 3rd of last month at the Fenchurch Street Station, and delivered him up at the Hammersmith police-court.

K. A. KING (re-examined). The boots produced by the officer are the same as those supplied to the prisoner.

GUILTY . A conviction in 1874 was proved against the prisoner for obtaining goods by false pretences— Five Years' Penal Servitude.

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-381
VerdictGuilty > unknown; Guilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment; Imprisonment

Related Material

381. JEREMIAH MURPHY (16), and MICHAEL BRYAN (20) , Unlawfully assaulting Thomas Cheesman occasioning to him actual bodily harm; a similar assault on William Telford, and on Dennis Kelley in the execution of their duty.

MURPHY PLEADED GUILTY to the assault on Dennis Kelley.

MR. BESLEY conducted the Prosecution.

The evidence in this case was a vegetation of that given at page 678.

MURPHY— GUILTYon the first and second Counts. A conviction in 1876 at this Court was proved against him— Eighteen Months' Imprisonment.

BRYAN— GUILTY Twelve Months' Imprisonment.

THIRD COURT.—Thursday, April 12th, 1877.

Before Mr. Justice Manisley.

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-382
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

Related Material

382. SIMEON HARRISON (33) , Feloniously setting fire to his dwelling-house, John White and other persons being therein.

MR. METCALF, Q.C. with MR. T. H. LEWIS and MR. DOUGLAS METCALF con ducted the Prosecution; and MR. W. SLEIGH the Defence.

THOMAS BURKE (Policeman 18 H). On 26th February, about midnight I was passing No. 6, Hackney-road, and smelt burning wood—I had passed half an hour before and there was no smell—I also saw smoke coming from the fan-light over the shop door—I knocked for four or five minutes and got no answer—the prisoner then answered me from the first floor window in his shirt—I could not tell whether he had any trousers on, because is leant through the window—I told him to stop where he was, because I had sent for the fire escape—when the escape arrived, two females were taken out at the second floor window, and the prisoner also came down the escape in his trousers, shirt, and slippers, without any stockings—John White was also taken out.

Cross-examined. I knocked as loud as I could with the knocker, and continued knocking four or five minutes, till I got an answer—the prisoner appeared to have just jumped out of bed in his night shirt—I am sure he had slippers on when he came down the escape.

WILLIAM KEEPING . I am fireman in charge of the escape in the Hackney Road—on 26th February, at 12.41 I was called and took the escape to No. 6, Hackney Road—I took from the house the prisoner and his wife and John White; not Mrs. White, she came down the escape by herself—they all came from the second floor window—the prisoner was in bis shirt sleeves, trousers, and waistcoat, and bare feet—there was not much smoke when I went.

JAMES BRIDGE . I am attached to the fire brigade—I went with a fire engine at 12.41 and broke the front door open—I went through the front shop into the back parlour, which appeared all on fire—I got a stand pipe and hose and played on it and reduced it—I afterwards found that there had been two distinct fires; the first in the centre of the floor of the back room, indicated by this red spot on this model (produced)—it was about 4ft. from the grate, where the fire was still alight, but there was no communication with the fire in the grate and that in the centre of the room, because there is a hearth-stone—the edges of the boards were charred, and between the joists there were four or five bundles of firewood, hardly burnt, just slightly scorched—the opening was about 18 in. wide—it was all open, some part of the flooring had been taken away; it was very old flooring—I could not find the pieces—joists number two and four were quite exposed, and number three partially so—pieces of board appeared to have been nailed on the floor—it appeared to be an old breaking, no other portion of the floor could be taken up without force—an iron gas pipe came from towards the shop, along the inside of the fifth joist, I think it was—I did not notice whether the gas was turned on—the other fire was at the top of the stairs, going down to the basement, under the landing—the fire was under these two shelves, the upper parts of which were very much burnt, and the three top stairs were burnt right away—the ceiling which runs under the shop floor and under the landing of the stairs was burnt—there was no communication whatever between the two fires, in fact, one was 5 ft. or 6 ft. from the other—there was a hamper of straw burning under the shelves, I kicked it about and helped to put it but—I was present when Langham cut through from the hole in the flooring to the basement ceiling to see whether there was any more fire.

Cross-examined. The gas pipe ran from the front of the house to the—back, along the joists—my attention was particularly attracted to it, but I could not tell whether there had been an explosion or not—there was no hole in the kitchen ceiling till Langham cut it through, standing underneath it—there was no hole till one of my men, who Trent across the room in the dark and the smoke to open the window, stepped with his foot through the floor, and made a hole in the ceiling—I was there at that time—that was before it was cut away—I then went down to the basement with Langham, who began to cut away the ceiling—there must have been a hole there, because the man's leg went through it—I had not been down there before that—there was no hole except where the man's leg went through—the hose was brought in through the front of the house and poured into this room with very considerable force—there was a small portion of leaden pipe on the iron pipe, and I saw that it had absolutely been melted—the fire under the stairs was the larger of the two—the tamper was not on the shelves, it was on the ground, exactly under where the fire was on the stairs—there were no doors to the shelves—I saw nothing on the shelves that would be a likely place to stow away old hampers and rubbish—the hamper might have caught fire from the stairs when they were on fire, or the stairs might have caught fire from the hamper—the first floor was filled with water from the hose.

WILLIAM WITHERS . I am superintendent of the eastern division of the salvage corps—my experience as a fireman extends over a period of 26 or 27 years—I went to the house on the 26th February between 6 and 7 o'clock, and in the back parlour, between the second and third joists, I found four

or five bundles of firewood not burnt—the strings remained on three of them, and between the third and fourth joists there was a quantity of firewood and some fat or dripping—this (produced) is some of it—there is a little fat adhering to it—there had been no fire whatever between the second and third joists, which were the nearest to the fireplace, between 5 and 6 feet from it—I am only speaking from memory, and hare not got my measurements with me—it is over 3 feet from the fireplace to the commencement of the third joist—part of the ceiling under the fire had been cut away, and these (produced) are some of the laths which hung down-some of the fat is adhering to them now—between 2 and 3 feet of the ceiling was fatted or greased under the third and fourth joists—I should say, by the remains I saw, that there were between 3 lbs. or 4 lbs. of fat or dripping—I have some of the fat here which I found between the third and fourth joists—this (produced) was the only piece which was among the fire; wood, the rest had run through—an iron gas pipe runs between the third and fourth joists, away from the direction of the two fires—the joists ran from front to back of the house—the gas pipe came from the main through the fifth joist, and over the fourth into the third—it did not run parallel with the joists—when it got into the back parlour it ran through the joists to the window, and there was a lead union in the centre between the third and fourth joists, with lead piping, which had all melted away—there had been no explosion of gas whatever—if there had been it would have blown the windows out either back or front—this small piece of lead pipe (produced) was melted off the iron pipe, and was left on the firewood, and the gas, which was full on, was escaping, but there was no explosion—the second fire was 6 feet or 7 feet from the first, and 10 feet or 12 feet from the fireplace—there was no communication whatever between the two fires—there was an ordinary wood partition and a door between them—some straw in a basket had been on fire under the shelves, and some firewood on these shelves (produced)—the upper surface of the lower shelf and the under side of the upper shelf are burnt—the fire began on the upper side of the lower shelf, as there is no burning on the lower side—the burnt firewood was on. the top of the lower shelf—here are the remains of it—the fire on the shelf might have communicated with the basket—some of the wood might have fallen, and set fire to the straw in the basket—the three upper stairs were burnt away, and in the partitions about a foot from the door I found a hole such as a hot poker would make—it appeared to have been drilled with something hot—the edges were burnt—that hole would cause more draught under the stairs, and the flame would go further up the stairs—I asked the prisoner how he accounted for the firewood being there, he said he could not tell me—I asked him if he was the last in the place—he said that he was, and that he went to bed about 12 o'clock.

Cross-examined. There was no escape of gas when I found this piece of lead pipe on the firewood between 6 and 7 a.m.—I said that the gas was escaping owing to the lead having melted, but no gas was escaping to my knowledge—it would require very little force to get this piece of pipe off, the hand would do it—joists and rafters are the same thing—the pipe went straight from front to back, except that it crossed one joist and went between the rafters—the pipe altered from iron to lead between the third and fourth joists, close against the seat of the fire where the hole was cut—this is a portion of the bend, I cannot say that it is a union—I have never heard of such a thing as a leaden union—an explosion of gas arises from an escape

when a light is placed to it—an explosion will cause a flare for a short time, and it puts itself out—I saw no crack in the pipe which would account for an escape of gas—this hole in the pipe has been done by the action of the fire—I have not noticed that before—the flooring of the bar or back parlour was a little out of repair in several places; the people of the house call it the bar—I saw crevices between the boards in one or two places—I saw no fat on the boards—I saw a table there—I heard the servant say at the police-court that her master used to keep bundles of firewood on the shelves under the stairs.

Re-examined. She is a witness for the prosecution—one shelf is shorter than the other—this one rested on iron brackets because it was not long enough—one went to the partition and the other did not.

MR. LAING. I am a salvage officer—I got to the house about 1.15 a.m. and was left in charge with a fireman Burnett and a constable—I saw traces of two fires without the least communication between them—I took these shelves down—the upper surface of each was burnt but the end under the stairs was the most burnt away—each shelf had brackets—I should say that the fire consuming the shelves originated from the lower shelf—something has been very likely lying on the lower shelf which was burnt—here is part of a bracket remaining on the upper shelf.

Cross-examined. I lifted the shelves up—they would not come away and I broke them away—they each rested on two brackets—the lower one went up to the staircase—but I cannot say about the upper one because the staircase was burnt where the shelf would have reached to—flame rises and the draught would cause it to flow up, but I do not think it curious that the under sides of the shelves are not charred—I found under the table in the bar, a tin which had had dripping in it and I put it on the table—it was partly under the table and partly out—I do not think it could have been knocked off the table because the table was pretty well full, and if it was knocked off it would have knocked something else off with it.

FREDERICK DISHER . I am an engineer in the Metropolitan fire brigade—I arrived with a steam fire engine at a few minutes before 1 o'clook, and got in with a ladder at the first floor window which I opened—I smelt gas strongly and went down into the basement, and found the gas fully turned on—I turned it off at the meter—I saw no jet of gas—it was escaping but it was out—I did not notice whether the other taps were turned or not'

Cross-examined. I got in at the first floor window, the gas was not alight there—the smell was where the pipe was burnt away—I did not smell gas upstairs at all.

CHARLES LANGHOLME . I went with the fire brigade—after putting the fire out I made an inspection—there were two separate fires, 5 feet or 6 feet apart without any trace of communication—the gas pipe was between the fourth and fifth joist, coming over between the third and fourth, where there was a little slit cut—the pipe was very much burnt through—it was lead between the third and fourth joists—the gas was escaping from that place at that time—3 inches or 4 inches of the pipe were burnt off and I ordered one of my brother officers to go and turn the gas off at the main, which he did.

Cross-examined. There is no doubt that the flame had extended under the floor boards.

Re-examined. I have said "The gas had been alight, and the pipe was melted. The part that had been burnt was 5 feet from the landing; I

think the flame from the gas had extended under the floor boards; the flame from the gas was out"—I still believe that the gas had been forced under the boards and fired the wood and had been put out by the water.

BETSY WHITE . I am the wife of John White, we lodged in this house in the back room, second floor—I did not set fire to the house—I went to bed at 11 o'clock—I did not see the prisoner before I went to bed—some time before this the prisoner told me that his business was very bad and he was going to let it, and if he did he would let me know a week before, that we might get lodgings somewhere else—shortly after Christmas he said that he could not meet his rent and should have to borrow 10l. of somebody, and 5l. of his mother—I last went through the back parlour about 8 o'clock on the Sunday evening—I saw no firewood there, it was kept on the lower shelf downstairs—I knew that there was a hole in the back parlour floor—I had noticed it during the week—it was not open on the Sunday before, but the tin had been off for some days—I did not see the hole after the fire—I did not see any wood in the hole when I passed through at 8 o'clock—I do not think I should have noticed if there had been—I came down the fire escape.

Cross-examined. The prisoner afterwards told me that he had paid his rent, but I did not see the receipt—on the very Sunday the fire happened, he said that business was better and he was getting on—I know that he had a bad leg, but I do not know that it was caused by his stepping into this very hole—he and his wife seemed frightened about the fire—after he got through the fire escape I lent him a pair of slippers to go over to his wife—the firewood was not always kept in the same place—the prisoner went out on this Sunday evening after the servant left, and came in again—business was going on on this Sunday evening, and his wife was cooking chops and boiling eggs, and in the room where the fireplace was—the business frequently lasted up to 11 o'clock.

JOHN WHITE . I am the husband of the last witness—I went to bed about 11 o'clock—I had nothing to do with the fire.

ROSA MASOALL . I had been in the prisoners service five months at the time of the fire—I used to come in the morning and leave at night—on the night of the fire I left at 6.30; there was then a large fire in the bar—the dripping-pan was always kept in the shop window exposed for sale, and it was there when I left, there were about 7 lbs. of dripping in it—on Monday morning when I returned, the dripping-pan was on the table in the bar—I did not see it under the table—there was no dripping in it then—it was generally kept in the back-kitchen on the lower shelf—I brought up two bundles of wood in a scuttle of coal every night—I brought the bundles up the night before, and they both, still remained in the scuttle in the bar on Monday morning when I got there—there were twenty-four bundles on the shelf when I left—there were two holes in the bar parlour floor which were covered with tin—the tin was over both the holes when I left on Sunday night—the steps were always kept at the top of the house in a little cupboard in the top front room.

Cross-examined. Those were the largest pair, and the only pair of steps kept in the house, a shorter pair were kept out at the back—there is a place of convenience in the yard behind the back kitchen to which customers were in the habit of going—there would be nobody at all in the back kitchen at the time business was going on—I always give them a candle if they go down—they would not pass these shelves—I had to go for coal to a cellar in front

of the house, and had to pass these shelves—the firewood wag kept on the lower shelf—I never put the candle on the shelf when I went to get coal, I always put it on the table in the front kitchen—there was no table in the back kitchen, nor anything to rest anything on except the shelves—the straw came in the course of the business, and we used to unpack the hampers and take them and the straw into the back kitchen, and we sometimes put the straw on the floor, but I always kept the straw in the hamper, it was there naturally in the course of business—a fire was kept in the back kitchen and it was the custom to have cooking utensils on the fire there, a kettle, or a saucepan, at the same time that business was going on upstairs—a saucepan might be taken from there if the fire was too crowded—we always had large fires in business time—I have seen a hot cinder dinging to a saucepan when it was taken off the fire—when I left at 6.30 on this Sunday, I left the prisoner's wife at work at a large fire—when I wanted to add any dripping to that in the pan I took the pan from the window and into the other room, and put it on the table and filled it—that might happen whether I or Mrs. Harrisson were cooking—I have returned in the morning and found that the dripping had been sold while I was away—the prisoner was in the habit of going out on Sunday evening when he thought most of the people had been in to tea, and leaving his wife at 5.30 or 6 o'clock to manage the business—a good deal of fat and dripping was lying about the floor in spots and places—it used to run out of the tin when the meat used to be doing—I recollect the dripping-pan being upset one day with a good deal of fat in it in front of the fire—it was a very old floor and the house was very old indeed—the gas was never turned off at the meter since I have been there, it was always on when I came in the morning—I remember the prisoner putting his foot into the hole between the fire place and the leg of the table, and grazing his leg, which was very bad for two months, and he had a doctor to it for a month—a lot of rubbish and paper and straw was always kept in the back kitchen—I have found firewood—on the floor dry in the morning, which Mrs. Harper has put there to dry after I left—three or four bundles were always kept under the dresser in the box.

Re-examined. Two bundles were for the shop and two for the bar but some was always kept under the dresser—four extra bundles were there when I left on the Sunday evening—the fat used sometimes to run out of the tin on to the floor, and on Sunday a good deal of fat ran out of the tin, and' it used to soak through the cracks of the boards in the bar—it was my duty to clean up the bar, and I always cleaned it after the cooking was over—I have been to see the prisoner twice in prison and had conversations with him—the dripping pan was upset outside the fire place about three weeks before the fire and I cleaned it up—the hearth is stone—after the prisoner put his foot through the floor Mrs. White's went through the same hole, and then a fresh tin was put over the hole which was screwed down when I left on Sunday.

By THE JURY. There was no fire in the kitchen when I left on Sunday evening; it was lighted in the morning and went out about 12 o'clock or 12.30.

DAVID HOLDER (Police Sergeant L). On Monday 26th February I pointed to some fire wood between the joists, and asked the prisoner if he could account for it being there—he said "No"—I asked his wife in his presence if they kept their fire wood upstairs in this room, and the last witness answered "No, we keep the fire wood downstairs on the shelf"—I said "Do you keep any fire wood in that room at all?"—she said "No only what I bring up at night to light the fire in the morning"—I' said "Did you brings

up any yesterday?"—she said "Yes; two bundles"—I pointed to the floor and said "Did you put it here?"—she said "No I put it in the coalscuttle and found it there when I came"—the prisoner did not speak.

Cross-examined. I told him that it looked strange, the wood being found there—I was present on the Wednesday when Foster spoke to him about the wood, and he said to Foster "You might have put it there for what I know."

GEORGE FOSTER (Detective Sergeant H). I went to the house on Wednesday morning the 28th at 9 o'clock; the prisoner came downstairs with Inspector Hilder, and I said "I am going to take you in custody on suspicion of setting fire to this house, I have taken Borne wood out from between the joists"—he said "How many bundles are there?"—I said "I have found the tyers of four, in between the second and third joists, and I have also found a portion of others between the third and fourth joists and I cannot say how much may be there"—I found these strings and this table knife between the joists; and surrounding the gas pipe I found this wood (produced) and also some which was charred—I said "Can you give any account of it?"—he said "You might have placed it there yourself for what I know this morning"—I said "What have you to say about the grease, I could not have put that there?"—he said "There was a dish containing some dripping on the table over night"—I asked where it was and the servant produced it from under the dresser"—I said "This looks very suspicious, it will have to be investigated before a Magistrate, you will have to come with me to the station"—he had sent for some ale and he asked me to have some; I refused—he then went to the sink and said "I will face it"—and placed his head under the tap and rinsed his face—he asked to put' on a clean shirt, and I went up to his bed-room with him where his wife was—he told her that we were going to take him to the station, she wished to accompany him, but he told her to remain where she was and keep her mouth shut and answer no questions—I took him to the station—I saw some steps in a cupboard adjoining the second floor landing—there is a trap-door close to the landing at which I got out by means of the steps and went on to the adjoining houses.

Cross-examined. I did not go there for the purpose of questioning Mm—nor did I take him in consequence of what I dragged out of him—I gave him the opportunity of explaining how the wood came between the joists; and as he did not I took him into custody.

GEORGE GREENWOOD HUNT . I am a clerk in the office of the London, Liverpool, and Globe Office—I sent off this policy (for 280l.) to the prisoner on 6th February—it was one of 250 which I gave to a man named Wood to post.

RICHARD CHADWICK . I am an auctioneer and valuer of St. Martin's Lane—I was sent on 6th March to value the property at 6, Hackney Road—the house was then in the possession of the salvage officers—the furniture and wearing apparel was worth 25l. 16s., the furniture and utensils 19l. 19s., stock and utensils 7l. 9s., total 53l. 4s.—that would easily reinstate everything in the house.

Cross-examined. I have never been employed to value for the prosecutors before—I was examined at the police-court, and refused to produce the valuation of Mr. Haynes, another valuer, and said that I refused to refer to it—I never had it, and had not seen it—I had seen a copy of it furnished to me by the company—I told the advocate at the police-court that I did not know what the amount was.

Re-examined. I should say that this is it. (This was an estimate by J. G. Haynes and Co., of 57, Southampton Row, Holborn, of the loss and damage by fire at 6, Hackney Hood, amounting to 162l. 10s., including 32l. 10s. for damage to wearing apparel and furniture by smoke, fire, and heat.) I found nothing damaged by fire, but some of the crockery ware on the dresser was a little blackened and dirtied by the smoke, nothing was charred, but one kettle had lost its spout—not the least damage was done upstairs—I still adhere to my own valuation.


FOURTH COURT.—Thursday, 12th April, 1877.

Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-383
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

Related Material

383. GEORGE SAMUEL (24) , Stealing five pad end dees and other goods, of Jonathan Barlow. Second Count—receiving the same.

MR. HARRIS conducted the Prosecution; and MR. MEAD the Defence.

JONATHAN BARLOW . I carry on business at Nos. 6, 7, and 8, Queen Street, Oxford Street, as a coach ironmonger and plater—the prisoner was my apprentice—he has been with me about five years—he left in September, 1876—I also occasionally employed a man named Hassett as a plater—Barlow, my half-brother, was there, and had been since he was a boy, as ware-houseman—I never authorised him to sell anything—on the 23rd of March I went to Mr. Allen's, in Drury Lane, with O'Dea, where the prisoner was working with Hassett—I asked Hassett to step into the parlour, so that I might speak to him privately—he hesitated, but went into the parlour—I had seen a casting on the floor—after speaking to him I went back to the shop, and looked about, and saw a number of articles—I have made a list—. these eight files were found at the shop, and the knobs—some of the other things were found at the prisoner's lodging—most of these were stolen within a year ago; I cannot say if all were—I asked the prisoner how he came by them—he said "I had them of your brother"—I said "You have no business to have them of him"—he said "I paid for them"—I said "My brother had no right to deal in those things, and you had no right to accept them"—he was then given into custody—I then went to his lodgings and found the articles contained in the list produced—the pad end does were found there—my name is stamped on them; also the two breech rings, and this ingot of tin—I recognise the tin by my brother's writing on the paper in which it is wrapped—I never authorised anyone to dispose of any of these things—I manufacture them to make up, and not to sell.

Cross-examined. I identify the tin by the numbers—I buy it from Thames Street—I know one piece by the holes which my men stamped by my punches—other people may have punches similar—I employ sixteen men—the head locks are made especially for me in Walsh—my brother has never been allowed to sell rough castings—my trade is to furnish coachbuilders with fittings—I recognise the breech rings by the two dots at the end—I never sell these things as they are—they are covered with silver—I know the cruppers by the patterns—no one else makes them like it—my brother was in my employment the same time as the prisoner was.

Re-examined. I will swear to the handles, the files, and the 14 lbs. of tin being stolen from my place, and the other things (produced).

ROBERT BURGESS . I was manager to Mr. Barlow—Samuel lodges in North Street, Manchester Square; I went there, but I forget the number—I left the prosecutors about fifteen months ago—the articles produced are never sold as they are in the rough.

Cross-examined. They were not sold when I was there.

JAMES O'DEA (Detective Officer C). I went to 25, North Street, Manchester Square, with the prosecutor—the prisoner gave that address when he was charged—I went first to the shop where the prisoner works, I found eight files, twelve head locks and other things—they are too many to enumerate—the prosecutor identified them—I produce a list—the prisoner was asked as each article was produced where he got them from, and he said "From Ted" meaning the prisoner's brother—on March 25th I went to the prisoner's lodgings and found the articles mentioned in this list—the ingot of tin was in a box in the prisoner's room.

Cross-examined. The prisoner did not say Barlow was working on his own account, and had purchased the things in that way—I do not know that Hassett has been carrying on business for himself, nor that Samuel was there whilst looking out for a place for himself—there was one bench and two vices, and the things found were near the bench where Samuel was working—Hassett has a card with his address—the prisoner also has a card with his address.

NICHOLAS DUNN . I am now manager to the prosecutors, and have been for six months—my attention has been called to the articles produced—we never sell them as they are.

J. BARLOW (re-called). Between the time of Burgess leaving and Dunn's coming, I was my own manager.

GUILTY of receiving. He received a good character— Five Years' Penal Servitude.

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-384
VerdictNot Guilty > no evidence; Guilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

Related Material

384. JAMES HASSETT (54), and the said GEORGE SAMUEL (24) , Stealing fifty-four metal castings, two metal plates, and other goods, goods of George Barlow. Second Count—unlawfully receiving.

MR. HABRIS conduced the Prosecution MR. FULTON defended Hassett.

No evidence was offered against Samuel.


JONATHAN BARLOW . In consequence of information I received at Mrs. Allen's, and this escutcheon which was found, I went on Friday to the shop where Hassett and Samuel were working, in Little York Place with the detective—I said to Hassett" We want to speak to you privately"—when we got into the parlour I asked him if he had been to Mr. Allen's on the Tuesday to offer some castings for sale—he said "No"—the officer who was with me said "I am a police-constable, we know more than you think we do; you had better speak the truth"—then he admitted he had offered some of the things, the German silver and the brass castings to Mr. Allen, of Drury Lane—I then asked him if he bought them—he said "No"—I said "Where did you get them from, you know they are my property"—he said he got them from "Ted" meaning my brother—I said "Did you have any bill?"—he said "Yes"—he fumbled in his pocket, he could not find one—then we searched his place and found a similar unfinished escutcheon to the one found at Allen's, and other articles now produced which I have identified—the screw plate I recognise by the stamps upon it—he said my brother had lent him this tool—I said "He had no authority to lend it, and you must have stolen it"—he made no reply—I will swear to these buckles and the India rubber used for shackles—he admitted the shackles were some that were left of a quantity he had had of my brother—he said he bought the stops, but he could not give me a name—these unfinished handles are mine, they are separate patters—as

each article was produced I asked him how he came by them, and he said he bought them of my brother—I have lost similar files to the twelve, which were found—we never sell them—I believe they are mine; I recognise some of the things by the writing on the parcels—I identify the breech rings by the spots—I could not purchase these goods anywhere, except the nuts.

Cross-examined. Some of the things were in empty soap boxes, others put away in cupboards—the prisoner is a harness plater, he would have them to plate—some of the files were found in a drawer where his wife kept her clothes; some of the files are new—the prisoner has been over twenty years in my employment, off and on; he left about nine or twelve months ago—I was forced to employ him when busy, though he was an extraordinary drunkard, he would work a week and play a fortnight—I am sometimes obliged to employ men as bad as he, even thieves—my brother is over forty—he had no authority from me to do business on his own account—I gave him an Irish rise, which means that I reduced his wages from 2l. 4s. to 2l. a week—I should not have employed my brother if I knew he was carrying on an independent business.

JAMES O'DEA (Detective Officer C) repeated his former evidence. See p 724).

BENJAMIN ALLEN . I am a brass founder, carrying on business in Drury Lane—on the morning of March 20th, Hassett came to my shop with some dirty buckles and escutcheons, like those produced, there were 6 lbs. or 7lbs.—I put them in the scale, but I had a presentment there was something wrong, and would not buy them—he complained of my troubling him to open them.

Cross-examined. They were to be sold to melt—no price was mentioned.

THOMAS ALLEN . I am a brass founder, at 163, High Holborn—on the afternoon of March 20th, Hassett came to my shop with some escutcheons and German silver buckles, like those produced—I bought them, they are now melted—he said they were old fashioned and he took them in exchange, they were all unfinished—I gave him the melting price, 1s. a lb. for the German silver, and 6d. a lb. for the brass—there were 13 3/4 lbs, of metal altogether—I have got the book in which it is entered—Hasset signed it.

HASSETT— GUILTY Five Years' Penal Servitude.

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-385
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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385. EDMUND ALFRED BARLOW (41) , Stealing three buckles, one parcel of silver cuttings, and other goods, of Jonathan Barlow, his master. Second Count—for receiving the same.

MR. HARRIS conducted the Prosecution; and MR. MEAD the Defence.

JONATHAN BARLOW . After the apprehension of the other men charged here to-day, I went to my brother's, 49, South Moulton Street, and found in his room three corded plated buckles, a parcel of silver cuttings, and four head locks, two parish slam locks-, a metal Russian cornet, two large pattern rings, four ivory knobs, three new files, this corded terret, which is taken out of this horse's pad (produced)—they are all my goods, they were stolen from my premises—my brother has been employed on the premises over thirty years; he had no authority to take these things—he made no answer when I spoke to him about it.

JAMES O'DEA (Detective Officer C). I took the prisoner into custody for stealing these things—he said "I do not know what you mean"—he has never made any other answer.

By the Prisoner. I took you into custody before I touched the things—I found silver on your person.

The prisoner put in a written statement, giving the names of persons from whom he bought goods, and detailing some family disputes.

ROBERT BURGESS . I am a coach plater, and live at No. 1, Gilbert Street, Oxford Street—I purchased some tin for the prisoner from Thames Street, seven years ago—I never knew him to be dishonest.

GUILTY Seven Years' Penal Servitude.

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-386
VerdictGuilty > with recommendation
SentenceImprisonment; Corporal > whipping; Imprisonment > other institution

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386. JOHN MUIR (14), and ANDREW SWAN (14) , Feloniously setting fire to a dwelling-house, Alice Snell and others being therein. Other Counts—stating the building to be an out-house and day-room.

MESSRS. BESLEY and TIOKELL conducted the Prosecution; and MR. C. MATHETE

the Defence.

ALICE SNELL . I am an inmate of the Central London District School, at Hanwell—the prisoners were also inmates—about 11 o'clock in the day I was in what is called the day-room—I saw Swan put something into a hole in the wall, about 3 feet from the ground—then Muir put a red hot poker through the hole—I did not see where they got it from; I then saw smoke—I called Nurse Kitty; Muir ran behind the coal-cellar, Swan remained in the room—there were some children in the room, I do not know how many.

ALICE FISHER . I am an inmate of this school—on the 4th of March I was standing by the stairs, outside the day-room about 11 o'clock—I saw the prisoners with a red hot poker—they were coming out as we were going in—when I got inside I saw some smoke coming from a hole in the wall.

THOMAS BLAGROVE PHILLIPS . I am an officer of the Central London District School, at Hanwell—on the 4th of March, about 11 o'clock, I was crossing the yard and going towards the day-room, when I saw a large number of children running out—I ran in and hurried the remainder of the children out, as I saw that the end of the house was on fire—the inside of the building is lined with wood but the outside is galvanised iron—I ran for water—one boy threw a painfull over me—the fire was inside—the flames were 10 feet high—the hut was so damaged that we had to pull it down—the wood was burnt nearly to the ceiling—about 240 children were in the room at the time of the fire.

WILLIAM STANLEY (Policeman A 419). On the 4th March I went to the London District School, at Hanwell—the prisoners were given into my custody; they made no statement.

GEORGE WRIGHT HILLTARD . I am superintendent of the Central London District School, at Hanwell—on March 4th, during Divine service, about 11 o'clock, I was called out of church in consequence of finding the fire in the day-room, the fire brigade belonging to the school was put in requisition—I waited till the flames were put out and then made inquiries—I sent for the prisoners and Alice Snell—Snell made a similar statement to what she has done to-day—I told the prisoners I should send for a constable—Swan pointed to Muir and said "He did it"—Muir immediately turned round and said "You put the poker in the fire for it, to make it red hot—I said "I think you have said quite enough," as they continued to accuse each other—only the officer slept there—there is no communication from the dwelling-house to the day-room without going out of doors, but the buildings join.

Muir put in a written defence stating that Swan told him to do it.

GUILTY. Recommended to mercy on account of their youth. It was, however stated that the prisoners had been guilty of a long course of misconduct Three Months' Imprisonment, Twenty Strokes with a Birch Rod, and Five Years' in a Reformatory.

FIFTH COURT.—Thursday, 12th April, 1877.

Before Mr. Recorder.

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-387
VerdictGuilty > with recommendation
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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387. PERCY ROBINSON (45) , Feloniously forging and uttering an order for the payment of 50l. with intent to defraud.

MR. F. H. LEWIS conducted the Prosecution; and MR. FULTON the Defence.

CHARLES APPLETARD . I am a solicitor, practising in New Square, Lincoln's Inn, and have been a great number of years in the profession—I knew the prisoner's father many years ago, who was also a solicitor—I received this letter (produced) dated the 4th August, from the prisoner. (This letter contained a request from the prisoner to Mr. Appleyard, to undertake an administration suit for the winding up of his late father's estate.) The estate had never been properly administered, and he asked me to communicate with Messrs. Rail, which I did, and the various letters which I have here passed between us in the matter of this estate—in September, the prisoner brought me this cheque (produced) headed "Bank of England, Liverpool Branch," dated the 15th September, 1876, for 50l., signed "Ernest Thellisod," endorsed "Percy Robinson," which I passed through my bankers, Messrs. Gosling—he told me Mr. Thellison was administrator of his father's estate, and had given him that cheque as a loan and that he had applied for it on account of some expected share in the remainder of his father's estate—he told me he had seen Mr. Thellison, at the Victoria Hotel, Euston Square—he asked me to keep it for a day or two because he did not mean to take "it as a loan, but demanded it on account of some part of his father's estate—he afterwards brought me this letter signed E. Thellison. (Read: "Sir,—Mr. Percy Robinson borrowed 50l. of me which I sent him by cheque on the Bank of England, Liverpool Branch, requesting its acknowledgment In a letter received from Mr. Robinson, he informs me that he has deposited his cheque with you. May I request to know what is the fact, and what I am to expect," &c.) I gave the prisoner 27l., on the 16th September, on the cheque at his request, and 20l. more at his request, and the balance 3l. was to remain in my hands to pay some costs of copies of deeds he had ordered, which were to be sent to me on his business—in the course of business 1 sent the cheque to my bankers, and it came back dishonoured—I then communicated with Mr. Thellison.

ERNEST THELLISON . I reside at Romsey, Isle of Man—I married the prisoner's sister—I do not bank at the Bank of England, Liverpool Branch, and have no account there—the signature to the cheque produced is not in my handwriting, and is no way authorised—I was not in London at the time the cheque purports to be signed by me—the letter dated from the Victoria Hotel, Euston Station, is not in my handwriting or signed by me—I did not lend the prisoner 50l. in any way—it is eighteen or twenty years since I had seen him.

Cross-examined. My wife was administratrix of the prisoner's father—I received a letter in August last from the prisoner in connection with his father's estate—I have it here (produced)—I believe the prisoner's brother paid

555l. 8s. to my lawyers, off the Orchard Street House—I do not know what year it was in—Mr. Robinson's lawyers have seen all the costs of the estate, and a release was given about sixteen years ago; that is all I know—I was certainly not indebted to the prisoner in any way at the time that cheque was drawn—the 555l. was certainly accounted for by my lawyers.

The Prisoner in his defence entered in detail into certain circumatances consequent upon his father's death, by which he alleged he had been deprived of a fair share of the property, and he drew the cheque in the hope and belief that Mr. Thdlison would pay it.


Strongly recommended to mercy, which recommendation, however, was withdrawn on it being stated that the prisoner had been seventeen times previously convicted, many of which, convictions were proved by Chief Inspector Drusconites— Ten Years' Penal Servitude.

THIRD COURT.—Friday, April 13th, 1877.

Before Mr. Justice Manisty.

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-388
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

Related Material

388. GEORGE KNIGHT (21) , Feloniously cutting and wounding Joseph Carr, with intent to murder him.

MR. BULWER, Q.C., and MR. HORACE AVORY conducted the Prosecution; and

MR. M. WILLIAMS the Defence.

JOSEPH CARR . I am an engine driver on the Metropolitan Raikay—I have known the prisoner some time as a fireman on the same line—on Saturday night, 4th November, or early on Sunday morning, a few words took place between us respecting our faults, telling one another our faults, and little scuffle took place but there was nothing serious—my mate Prior was present—the prisoner and Prior had a fight, but it had nothing to do with me, I only tried to part them—the prisoner drew a knife out and I told him to put it away or I should call a policeman and give him in charge—he put it away and we parted good friends, as I thought, and shook hands—the prisoner and my mate had a fight on the Monday; and on the Tuesday I saw him strike my mate and knock him down in the road in Chapel Street—I went to part them, and said it was quite time the matter was settled it had been going on a long time—he said that he had done with he but he had not done with my mate, and he would have his revenge on me some other time—he drew a knife that day when I was talking to him—I saw it in his hand—I was close to him—on Thursday morning, 9th November, about 1.40, I saw him in Lison Grove—he walked in front of me and turned into Stafford Street and let me pass him—he then followed me and just as I entered the Chapel Street works he came running behind me—I turned round and he was 4 yards or 5 yards from me—he pulled a revolver from his breast and fired at me—I fell and lost my senses for a while, when I came to myself a little I got up and went towards him, and as I did so he fired again, but the shot did not take effect—I hallooed "Police!" and Murder)—as I ran away he fired at me again but missed me—I ran down the stain and fell insensible through excitement as soon as I had crossed the line.

Cross-examined. I said to him that I had many times attempted to push him off the engine when he has annoyed me—I am much bigger than he is—that was before he was made a fireman, when he was in charge of the engine one night—I said that some time ago not, on this occasion—he said that if he was as big as me he would have a go in at me that was after the Saturday.

Re-examined. This was Sunday morning, 5th November—I was taken to a hospital—a Magistrate was sent for, and the prisoner was brought to my bed-side—I do not recollect that he made any statement.

JOHN HIDE MALLETT . I am a cab driver—on 9th November a little before 5 a.m. I was driving in Chapel Street, and I heard a loud report of fire arms—after it some one hallooed "Murder!" and "Police!" several times—I then heard two more very loud reports—I then saw the prisoner come out and shut the door and walk away—I followed him and called a constable, who took him.

WILLIAM CHEW (Policeman D 148). On 9th November, about 5 a.m., I was on duty in Lisson Street, and heard a shot—I stopped the prisoner and asked him what he had done—he said "I have shot a man in Chapel Street"—he was walking—I said "You will have to come back with me-"—he said "Very well, constable, you must do your duty.; I will go back with you"—a gentleman said "That is the man, he shot a man in Chapel Street, I saw him do it"—the cabman said "So did I"—the prisoner said "That is quite right, constable; I shot him three times"—I asked him what he had done with the fire-arms—he said "I have got them in my pocket"—I said "You had better give it to me"—he said "Very well," put his hand into the breast pocket of his coat, pulled out this six-chamber revolver (produced) and gave it to me, saying "There are two charges in it; it is not cocked, you need not be afraid of it"—I found two charges in it—it had been recently discharged—a bullet was afterwards shown me by a man working on the Underground Railway, and it fits the revolver—as we were going to search the prisoner he put his hand in his pocket and pulled out these seven cartridges (produced) which fit the revolver—I afterwards took the prisoner to the foot of the prosecutor's bed, when a Magistrate attended—the prisoner said "Joe, you got what you deserved; I told you you were too good a man for me to fight, but I should have my revenge out of you some day or other, I don't care whether you die or not, because if you die I shall have to die for it: I don't care, I have had my revenge."

Cross-examined. That was on the same morning that this took place—I did not state that before the Magistrate—I did not think it necessary, because the same Magistrate was there when it was said—the prisoner put questions to me before the Magistrate.

JOHN BATTEN COOMBE . I am one of the resident medical officers of St. Mary's; Hospital, Paddington—on 9th November, about 9.15, Carr was brought there nearly unconscious, and I ordered him immediately into; a ward—I saw a circular hole in his shirt, and on taking it off, I saw a small hole about the size of the apex of my little finger on the inner side of his right nipple—it was very deep, and almost perpendicular—I saw a piece of his coat in the wound—his coat and vest were perforated at the same place—I removed the material from the wound and put in a large probe, but found that I struck nothing—I carefully examined his chest, and came to the conclusion that the bullet had passed into the pleural cavity—there were signs that a large quantity of blood had been extravasated into the cavity—the bullet is still in his chest—I called Mr. Giles, my colleague, we thought the man was going to die, and his deposition was taken—he afterwards had severe inflammation of the lungs; and pleurisy and inflammation of the liver and bowels—the cells of his lungs 'have collapsed together, and a foreign body being still there he is not as certain of life as he was before.

GUILTY Penal Servitude for Life.

FOURTH COURT.—Friday, April 13th, 1877.

Before Mr. Recorder.

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-389
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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389. ELIZABETH GIBBS (47) , Feloniously killing and slaying Azariah Gibbs.

MR. TICKELL conducted the Prosecution; and MESSRS. WARNER SLEIGH and PURCELL the Defence.

JOHN GIBBS . I reside at No. 7, St. George's Court, William Street, St. George's East, and am a son of the deceased and the prisoner, and lived in the same house—he was a shell polisher—about 7 o'clock on Saturday evening I was in his company at Hatton's beer shop, in William Street—we had a pint of 4d. ale—I went home about 12 o'clock at night—I went to bed—three-quarters of an hour afterwards I heard a quarrel in the front room downstairs, which is occupied by my father and step-mother—I went and opened the door and saw father in a chair, bleeding, and my stepmother stooping over him with a poker—she made at me with the poker—I pulled the door back—she opened the street' door—I held the poker from him till I got assistance—I caused my father to be taken to the hospital.

Cross-examined. I have seen my stepmother with black eyes and brusies on her body, that has been when she was drunk—I did not see anything before my father was struck—I do not leave work till 6 o'clock.

ROBERT GIBBS . I live at No. 7, St. George's Court, with my mother—I slept in the same room as my mother and father—on 24th of February my father came home late; the chamber pot was on the chair, he said it was not in its proper place and he threw it behind the fire—he then turned to the window, and mother picked up a piece of the pot and threw it at him, it hit him on the side of his ear—he went one step and fell over the wash stand—mother then led him to the arm chair; he was insensible-my brother came down and took him to the hospital.

Cross-examined. My mother was standing near the fireplace—I did not see father throw the chamber at her head—neither of them was sober.

Re-examined. The chamber went underneath the grate—it did not go near mother, she was about a yard away—she picked up the poker to hit my brother with.

SARAH GIBBS . I am twelve years old—I sleep in the same room as father and mother—I saw my father last on the 24th of February, he went to the beershop to see mother—he gave her two haddocks about 7 o'clock in the evening; I was at the beer-house, he asked mother to come home—soon after she did come home; he then threw some money down, it was not enough, he gave her some more—she told him to put it somewhere, threw it back at him, and swore—he walked out and went to the top of the court, he came in again, and went out and came in again—he saw the vessel on the chair, he said it was not in its 'proper place, and threw it in the fire place—mother took the handle and hit him on the bead with it—he took one step and fell back against the wall, and mother laid the poker across me and my little brother—father did not speak afterwards, he was senseless—my brother carried me out.

Cross-examined. There was 10s. rent to pay, and mother said she had had not enough—I was in bed with my little brother, I had not been there long—the bed is in the corner, not far from the fireplace, and the armchair is near the fireplace—father did not throw the vessel at mother or say that

he would do so—I have never said he did throw it at her to Mrs. Wilson; I know her—the prisoner is our step-mother—I paid the rent, I got the money from my father.

WILLIAM BOYTEN JOHNSON . I am a surgeon at the London Hospital, the teased was admitted to the hospital on the 24th of February, he was suffering from a laceration of the scalp, about an inch and a half in length, down to the bone; he remained in the hospital till the 26th, and then died a post-mortem examination was held, I found a separation of the cantellus tissue bone, and a formation of matter between the bone and the covering of the bone, an abscess in the brain and an abscess in the lung; it would be the result of blood poisoning; a blow on the head like that described by tie witnesses might cause pyaemia—I have no doubt that the blow was the cause.

JOSEPH NEWMAN (Detective Officer H). I took the prisoner into custody on the 17th March—on being charged, she said "You do not know what I have had to put up with, do you, sir"—I cautioned her—she said "I would as leave be in prison as out, I shall get away from somebody's blood hounds then"—she also said "This looks like the act of a dying man to send for me to come to the hospital and have me locked up"—I told her I had nothing to do with her husband, but that the law interfered in serious matters like these—she said "Certainly three or four years is a long time to look forward to, but when I come out I will settle some of them, or I will put some one else on to do it"—I took her to the station where the charge was taken by Inspector McDonnell—she then said she had had her teeth loosened by her husband—the inspector said "I suppose you mean to say that what you did was in self-defence"—she said "Yes, it was"

GUILTY One Month's Imprisonment.

THIRD COURT.—Saturday, 14th April, 1877.

Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-390
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment; Imprisonment; Miscellaneous > sureties

Related Material

390. JAMES RIDGE (66), CECIL RIDGE (26), and ELLEN RIDGE (20) , PLEADED GUILTY to obtaining goods by false pretences from Edward Tidswell and another. JAMES RIDGE— Two Months' Imprisonment . CECIL RIDGE— Four Months' Imprisonment . ELLEN RIDGE entered into recongnisances to come up for judgment when called upon.

NEW COURT.—Thursday, April 12th, 1877, and nine following days.

Before Mr. Baron Huddleston.

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-391
VerdictGuilty > with recommendation; Guilty > with recommendation
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude; Imprisonment > penal servitude; Imprisonment; Miscellaneous

Related Material

391. HARRY BENSON (29), alias Yonge, alias Brooks, alias Morton, dx ; WILLIAM KURR (25), alias Gifford; CHARLES BALE (30), alias Jackson, alias Gregory; FREDERICK KURR (23), alias Collings, alias Alfred Montgomery ; and EDWIN MURRAY (32), alias Wells, alias Monroe , were indicted for feloniously forging a warrant or order for the payment of 10,000l., with intent to defraud. Second Count—for uttering the same with the like intent.

MR. SOLICITOR-GENERAL. with MESSRS. BOWEN and MCCONNELL, conducted the Prosecution; MR. WILLIS, Q.C., with MR. HORACE AVORY, appeared for Benson; MR. SERGEANT PARRY, with MR. J. P. GRAIN, for William Kurr; MR. STRAIGHT for Bale, MR. BESLEY for Frederick Kurr, and MR. MONTAGU WILLIAMS for Murray.

Before plea MR. M. WILLIAMS submitted that as to the charge of uttering, the Court had no jurisdiction, the prisoners having been apprehended in Spain and extradited under treaty for the offence of forgery only.

(See Reg. v. Walton, Sessions Papers, vol. 84, page 364).

MR. BARON HUDDLESTON considered that the uttering having been found the Grand Jury, was sufficient, the Court was bound to try the case. The prisoners might plead to the jurisdiction as to the counts for uttering, and he would direct a plea of

NOT GUILTY to be entered.

The prisoner Murray pleaded

NOT GUILTY to the whole indictment, the other prisoners pleaded

NOT GUILTY to the forgery; and as to the littering they pleaded to the jurisdiction, the Court directing a plea of NOT GUILTY to be entered as to those counts.

JAMES BRYDONE . I am a printer at 12, Elder Street, Edinburgh—in August, 1876, I received a letter signed Hawkins—I have lost the letter—I have searched for it and cannot find it—I replied to the letter—that is also lost—the letter I received inclosed an order, and in consequence of its receipt I prepared a number of a newspaper, called "Sport"—on the llth of August I received the letter of the 10th—on the 11th I also received a tele gram—on Monday, the 14th, a Mr. Hawkins called on me; he is one of the prisoners, Frederick Kurr—he asked me if I had received the telegram from Mr. Hawkins—I said "Yes"—from that I concluded he was Hawkins—he then asked me how the newspaper was getting on—I told him we were pushing on with it—he told me to hurry on with it—I said I would—he then asked me about a cheque plate—I had 1,000 cheques to print from this plate—I told him in substance the plate was in the lithographer's hands—I saw Hawkins every day afterwards for a number of days till about the 19th—I prepared the cheque plate—I do not think I showed it to him—I sent it to London—I printed 1,000 cheques, and sent them to 324, Essex Road, Islington, London—I did not print the cheques before Hawkins left—I did print a number of the newspaper before he left—I showed him the newspaper—he took away a proof, and brought it back another day—I printed 500 copies, and he took them away—I told him I required the publisher's name—he gave the name that is on it, "Ralph Henderson, "and the address "Newcastle Street, St. Clement's, London"—the matter from which we printed was sent from London, some in print, and some in manuscript—the leading article, which is the first article, was in manuscript—the cheques were stamped by the Inland Revenue Department before being sent to London—Hawkins told me to get them stamped—the two copies produced are two of the cheques—the other papers are proofs of the cheques—they were given to the lithographer as a voucher for printing—the plate produced is the plate from which the cheques were printed—I gave up the possession of it—I asked first of all for a deposit, and I received a 5l. note, which was sent in two letters, half in each, one of the letters containing copy for the newspaper—my bill came to 29l.—I received a second payment for 16l., and then another for 10l.—these payments came by post—they overpaid my account—they are all the payments I received—on August 20th I received a telegram—I then sent off 250 more copies of the paper to the same address as before—I also prepared a coloured die for an envelope and a head plate and die for the paper—the die was lettered "Royal Bank of London" originally, and the head-plate was "Agar Chambers, Charing Cross, London"—the plate was altered to "The Royal British Bank—all my instructions came from London—I printed 500 headings and stamped

500 envelopes, and sent them to Essex Road—I did not print any after the alteration—the envelope die contained the letters "R. B. L."—they were sent in one parcel—I saw Hawkins or Kurr again on Friday, 3rd November, when be came to my office in Edinburgh, and brought copy for another newspaper, the "Racing News"—he also came on November 6th and told me to get on with the copy—a gentleman called Harry Street was with him, who I was a clerk to betting agents—he then left a die and ordered some cards to be engraved with the monogram "C. H."—I did not print it, because the police-called upon me on the 9th November—I had never known Kurr befora—I bad known Murray in Edinburgh four years ago as Williams—I also knew' William Kurr as Anderson four years ago at No. 3, Elder Street, Edinburgh.—they were betting agents, and in partnership as Gardiner and Co.—I then printed for them—I received these five telegrams, dated August 9th, llth, 17th, 20th, and 22nd, from Hawkins—before Frederick Kurr called on me I received two letters from Hawkins, which I have searched for and lost—I had a conversation with Frederick Kurr about the contents of the letters containing the order—when he first called he asked me if I had received a telegram about his coming—that was a telegram stating that on Saturday or Monday Mr. Hawkins would be with me; he did not say anything about' tie letters—I afterwards saw him on 3rd November—he did not then refer to those letters—he spoke about what they contained, about a French prospectus—there were 1,000 copies of it printed; this is it (produced)—this is one that I printed—he never got them—I have not got the copy from which I printed them, I got it from Hawkins—also this letter for a card-plate—he wrote it in the office on one of my envelopes—it is "Henry Cuthbert, 4, Oxford Street, &c, Ecosse."

Cross-examined by MR. SERGEANT PARRY. It is about four or five years ago that I knew William Kurr, in Edinburgh—it is about a twelvemonth ago that he was carrying on the business of a betting agent as Gardiner and Co. I did not know Mr. Gardiner—there are not other betting agents in Edinburgh now; there were before the Act came into operation that did away with betting in Scotland—it is supposed that betting agents are now altogether abolished in Scotland—before the Act there were numbers of betting agents in Edinburgh—I don't know whether they were Englishmen or not, they came from England.

Cross-examined by MR. BESLEY. I have carried on business in Edinburgh about nine years with my father—I believe there has never been any imputation against my conduct—this was a business transaction that I engaged in—the engraving is done outside our premises, and the lithographer prints" outside, not on the premises, and the copies are brought to us—the lithographer returns the plate to me—it is not likely he would print more than he returns to me—I keep the necessary machinery for printing on my premises, and employ about twenty-four or twenty-five men, boys, and girls—I do not stand by the machine while the newspapers are printed—there are one or two copies printed beyond those ordered, we file one as a voucher—the spoiled ones are spoiled, we allow for spoiled copies—we count the numbers before they leave the machine—the cheques were sent to be stamped to the Inland Revenue in Edinburgh by one of my servants, and a warrant comes to call and take away the parcel; they take the money first—parcels were sent at different times to Essex Road—I send the parcels to the railway by a boy or girl and I get a receipt from the railway—I kept the dies that are produced Frederick Kurr saw the two—I don't think he ever saw the

copper-plate—the first time I saw him was on the Monday—I never had any transactions with him or knew him before that day, barring the letters that came—when he came he said "You had a telegram from Mr. Hawkins"—I said "Yes are you Mr. Hawkins"—he said "Yes"—he never disputed it—I don't think the name of Hawkins was mentioned after that, there was no occasion for it.

Re-examined. I don't know who addressed the parcels sent to the railway—they were addressed in my office—no part of this wood work was done inside—I saw it as soon as it was done—this is a part of it—this one was for the heading of the newspaper "Sport"—the other was never used, that is the one they were coming about on 3rd November, for "The Racing News."

By THE COURT. I printed the newspaper because I was asked to do it—I did not make any inquiries—most of it came in as a printed paper that had been printed before—I did not ask any questions—I did not know anything about it—I did not ask whether there was such a bank as the Royal Bank of London—there is lots of printing for London done in Scotland—it did not occur to me that there was anything wrong—I sent a receipt for the money they sent, to 8, Northumberland Street, addressed to Mr. Brooks—the money came in a letter from there signed F. Brooks—nothing had been said in conversation with Hawkins about that address.

WALTER GEORGE STIFFIN . I reside at 324,. Essex Street, Islington, and keep a tobacconist's shop—I think I know Frederick Kurr, I only saw him on one occasion—there was permission asked if a letter might be left there—I was not present at the time, the permission was asked of my sister—he came in the evening—I had not the slightest knowledge of who or what he was—I believe him to be the man—he asked for something, a cigar or tobacco, or something of that description—and then asked for a letter that was on the shelf for him in the name of Hawkins—he asked if I would give him that letter, he could see it on the shelf; it was addressed to Mr. Hawkins—I asked him what name—he said Hawkins—I did not ask him his name—I asked him what name the letter was sent in and he said Hawkins, and I passed the letter to him and he went away—I believe I received other letters in the same name, I think this was the first—I know that other letters were left there in the name of Hawkins—I think it must have been near about the middle of August—I think I went away about 20th of August—it was some day in August that the man came—I can't say more than that I took no notice of the matter—besides the letters there were several telegrams came to the same name they were to be left till called for; they were called for.

Cross-examined by MR. BESLEY. I should not like to pledge my oath that either of the prisoners came to my shop; it was late in the evening when the man came, it was gas-light, he remained for a few minutes only, he just asked for what he wanted and went; just about a minute—a good deal I have been telling is what I heard from my sister, about the telegrams and so on—I only remember seeing the person on one occasion.

Re-examined. My belief is that the prisoner is the person.

AGNES ETHEL . I live at 55, Beresford Road, Highbury New Park—I had a person lodging at my house in August last under the name of Young—it was the prisoner Benson—his secretary came on the 10th and took the lodging, that was Frederick Kurr, he said he was his secretary, Benson came with him later on in the evening—he took the drawing-room floor and a second bed-room, two bed-rooms, and a sitting-room—while Mr. Young was

lodging there I saw some of the other prisoners—Mr. Young and his valet stayed there, the rooms were taken for them—the valet was called Pierre; they came on 10th August and left on the 24th—during that time I saw William Kerr, he used to be there very frequently, he went by the name of Captain Gifford—Bale also came in and out frequently; I did not know his came—he came in with Mr. Young in the evening, he was frequently in and out—when they left Young did not give me notice to leave—he said he went away on account of the insufficiency of the housemaid—he gave me this address when he left; I saw him write it, we had a dispute about a week's rent in lieu of a week's notice, and I wanted to know his address, and I asked him to write it down: "C. M. Young, 22, Medina Square, Glasgow"—he brought a little luggage with him; Captain Gifford used to dine with him—the others came in and out very frequently—I could not say how frequently, they were there very much in the morning and afternoon part—I don't know what they were doing; I did not see them doing anything, they went upstairs in the drawing-room—Mr. Young did not go out very much, he went out on one or two Sundays, and several times besides.

Cross-examined by MR. AVORY. Mr. Young made some complaint about the provisions being over-charged, and said that the housemaid pilfered his grapes and some of his tart, and little things of that kind, and that she was not clean or particular in her work—he paid everything all the time he was there, except the last week's rent, about which there was a dispute.

Cross-examined by MR. STRAIGHT. I did not know Bale by any name, he was continually coming in and out.

Cross-examined by MR. BESLEY. The 10th August was the first time I saw the secretary, when the lodgings were taken; he never slept there—I did not see him every day; I can't say how frequently, I saw him on the 24th—I think I saw him quite half a dozen times between the 10th and 24th—I don't know what he came for, he did not come regularly; I only knew him as the secretary—I never heard him addressed by any name.

By THE COURT. I don't know whether any letters came for them while they were there; I don't think any telegrams came—a Mr. Livett called on business; I don't know whether he was the only person besides those I have mentioned—I do not open the door to visitors.

LOUISA ASSYS . I live at 120, Newington Green Road, and let lodgings—on 24th August last year, Young and his valet came and took up their quarters in my house, and left on 19th October—Benson is Mr. Young, the valet was called Pierre—they came from Mrs. Ethel's, Pierre told me so when they took the apartments—Benson went out about 9 a.m. and returned about 6 o'clock, he had a brougham, which came for him and brought him back—William Kurr used to come occasionally to see him—I knew him as Captain Gifford, the servant Pierre attended to the door, and I did not know who came—I saw him, perhaps two or three times during the whole period—I also saw Frederick Kurr, but not very often; I never heard his name—I never heard Benson speak of him, I understood he was his clerk—I did not see any of the others—when Benson first came, he was lame, and walked with crutches; when he went away he was much better and able to walk without crutches—I never heard from Benson what he was; he went away for a short time just before he left finally—I put down in my rent-book what food he was supplied with—I see by my book that nothing was supplied to him between 27th September and 5th October; he was away during that time.

Cross-examined by MR. AVORY. He was able to walk with a pair of sticks instead of crutches when he went away.

FRANK RAYNER . I am post-master, at Shanklin, Isle of Wight—I know the prisoner Benson by the name of George Henry Yonge—I think it was in February, 1875, that I first knew him; I knew him during that year and a part of 1876, he was staying at Rose Bank, Shanklin, till the end of June or the beginning of July, 1876—I knew William Kurr by the name of Captain Gifford, and also by the name of Medway—I saw him in my shop, adjoining the post-office—I am a stationer and bookseller—he was not in any one's company—I have never seen Yonge and Gifford together—I believe it was in July, 1875, that I saw Gifford—I could not swear that I saw him more than once; he came in to write some telegrams in the name of Medway—I do not know where or to whom they were addressed—I do not know any of the other prisoners—after July, 1876, I never saw Yonge or Gifford until these proceedings.

Cross-examined by MR. SERGEANT PARRY. He did not give me his name as Captain Gifford, I only knew him by that name by the previous telegrams that had been passing between him and Yonge; I am under the impression that I saw him more than once—he sent telegrams in the name of Medway, I could not be certain that he sent any in the name of Gifford—from the time Yonge came to Rose Bank, telegrams were passing between him and Gifford—telegrams came addressed to Captain Gifford, care of G. T. Yonge; that was in 1875.

Re-examined. I sent those telegrams to Rose Bank—there were frequent telegrams passing between them, there were telegrams on both sides, but I am not certain to the day or month; sometimes every day, sometimes several on the same day, from-February, 1875, till July or August, 1875—I do not know to whom William Kurr sent the telegram in the name of Medway, I identify him as the person to whom telegrams were sent in the name of Captain Gifford, from the contents of the various telegrams which passed—I believe after a certain time Inland telegrams are destroyed; I believe those telegrams are not now in existence; I cannot now say what their contents were, from their general contents we concluded that Medway and Gifford were one and the same person.

GEORGE FLINTOFF . I live at 8, Northumberland Street, Strand—I am a civil engineer—on 30th August, Frederick Kurr called on me for the purpose of taking the ground floor, he goes by the name of Collings in this case, but he took the apartments in the name of Arthur Chapman, on behalf of Brooks and Co., of Glasgow, advertising agents, he did not give me his name in the first instance; I let the rooms to him on the following day, the 31st—at the first interview in the morning, he said he would call again, and he did so in the evening and left a deposit of 6l. odd with my wife for a months' rent in advance; I was not there, but it was subsequently carried out—on the 31st, about 9.30 a.m., Chapman came along with Mr. Brooks, that is Benson—I read over the draft agreement which I had prepared, to take the apartments for a month, it was filled up by Chapman at Brooks' request, and signed by him also at Brooks'request. (This was dated 31st August, and was a memorandum of agreement between Arthur Chapman, agent for Brooks and Co., and the witness for four weeks at 6l. 3s., the tenancy to be continued on payment of a like sum in advance.) I saw Frederick Kurr sign that in the name of Arthur Chapman, in the presence of Brooks—I asked both Benson and Kurr what style

of advertising he wished to carry on; William Kurr was present at the time, I only knew him incidentally by his proper name having heard it used by a boy who drove him in a horse and trap every morning to the office, that was afterwards; I did not know his name at that time—Benson produced a newspaper which contained an advertisement of Kinahan's Irish whisky, and said that was the style of advertisement that they wished to have to deal with, to take orders for—I understood they said their office hours would be from about 9 o'clock a.m. till about 5 o'clock p.m., but they could not bind themselves to any particular time—they asked me to supply them with sufficient furniture to make the place look decent; I did so, and they paid for the use of it in advance; from that day four of the prisoners became regular occupants from day to day of those chambers, Benson, William Kurr, Bale and Frederick Kurr—this (produced) is a photograph of Benson's servant Pierre Penohant, I have seen him there—the fifth man I believe I opened the door to once, but I wont positively swear to him—Beason generally came in a brougham, about 9.30 each morning, and left again about 5 o'clock in the afternoon, in the same brougham—there were two large tin boxes there during the time they were there—when the offices were swept in the evening the sweepings were brought drown, and there were the edges of 2 1/2 d. foreign postage stamps in numbers found among the waste paper, they represented several sheets, a sheet consists of 240 stamps, the boxes were always locked so far as I knew—William Kurr used to drive up in a horse and gig each morning, or nearly every morning, and was frequently fetched away by the same horse and gig in the afternoon, he would come somewhere about from 9 to 10 o'clock a.m., and he would leave at all kinds of times in the afternoon, generally from 4 to 6 o'clock—the other two, Chapman and Bale were in and out of the office continually during each day, the impression on our mind being that they were servants of the other two, Benson and William Kurr—on four or five occasions they were all detained in the office by artificial light, which we had to find them till 8 or 9 o'clock, dispatching letters or newspapers by post, we did not know which, and taking them to the Charing Cross post-office close by, carrying them in their arms—they remained until 26th September, their real time expiring on the 27th—I had not the slightest idea they were going until I received a message from them through my wife—I only remember one letter coming for them all the time they were there, and that was from Brydone, of Edinburgh, it had the name of Brydone endorsed on it—I knew the firm well and that attracted my attention—that draft agreement was written at my dictation—the name "Arthur Chapman "was written, a blank was left for "Agent for and acting on behalf of Brooks and Co., 70, Leith Street, Glasgow," that was written in afterwards—Frederick Kurr wrote the name of Arthur Chapman, and "Messrs. Brooks and Co., 70, Leith Street, Glasgow."

Cross-examined by MR. SERGEANT PARRY. I have been a civil engineer once 1851; during that time I have carried on that occupation exclusively—I have been at 8, Northumberland Street a year this March—I bought the lease of it about a year ago—I have carried on the business of a civil engineer in various parts of London and in the country also—I have been engaged for twenty-five years in erecting works all over the three kingdoms—I was at home during the month of September—I had plenty to do, and my work consisted in preparing drawings and specifications and alterations for gas works—I never was away from home a single day during

the time these persons were there—I was engaged for the Corporation of Swansea, drawing plans for them, not for anybody else—I state positively on my oath that I was engaged during that month for the Corporation of Swansea, not drawing plans, getting out estimates for works, the plans of which were already in, and had been for a long time—I worked on the second floor—I was in and out continually—I was always in my office upstairs during business hours—my hours are from 9 o'clock till 1 or 2 o'clock, and from 2 o'clock till 5 or 6 o'clock—I had nobody assisting me, I don't require a clerk—I have been engaged for the Swansea Corporation, on and off, for two or three years—my business only comes in in periods of a year or two apart, you can't erect a gaswork every day in the year, it only comes at long intervals apart—the Swansea Corporation have been my clients about two years; no others directly—I am always employed in my business, making estimates, whether I require plans or not—I was employed in any way I thought proper to employ myself—I was in London employing myself as I thought proper—I lecture and write scientific articles—I never leave my house from one week's end to another, unless I am called out—I have been to Swansea for weeks together and received 200 guineas for my work; that is, perhaps, fifteen or sixteen months ago—I will undertake to swear that I was engaged in going through my estimates in connection with the Swansea work during the month of September when the defendants were there—I stated at Marlborough Street that when I was engaged to give evidence in this case I told Mr. Abrahams that I should have to waste a considerable period of my time, and I asked him to give me 5l. on account of my expenses, and he did give me 5l., and that has been expended three or four times over—that was all I did receive—I don't think I said that I never went out of my door under 5l., I said three guineas was my usual charge—I insisted on cash from Mr. Abrahams and refused to take his cheque—I have not received a farthing more on account of this case—I expect whatever the Treasury think well to give me—I never knew that there was a reward offered in this case; I don't know now that there is—I have heard it alluded to in open Court, but I don't of my own knowledge know it now—I heard of it in Froggat's trial, about six weeks ago—it was stated to be 1,000l. by one of the detectives—William Kurr used to come to the office in a trap with his groom; I don't say that he came every day, I don't believe he did—he was in and out eight or ten times a day when he was there—I don't know that I have said that before; I should have said it if I had been asked—I was not told by anybody that there was a great desire to know everything about William Kurr that they possibly could; that has never been hinted to me in any way—he generally came in the morning and went away in the afternoon—he stayed there for hours at a time; I know that because I am continually going in and out—I met them at the door frequently, coming in and out—I had to go into the back part of the house, and there is a large window opening into their office without any blinds, and I could see every one—I used to go in and out of the yard, for my own convenience, half a dozen times, and I did not and could not help seeing them—that was one way I saw them, and in a number of other ways—I should think I was up and down twenty times in the day, quite that—I did not conceal myself and look at them—you could not help seeing their proceedings, because they kept the brougham outside, on purpose to be stared at, half or three-quarters of an hour together; people could not help noticing—I have known it there for an hour

—I could not help seeing them and their peculiar habits, one in a trap and another in a brougham—I have stated before that on one occasion, all the four defendants stayed till about 9 o'clock at night—I don't know what they put in the depositions, I have not seen them; I think I stated it, I can't be sure; if I had been asked I should have said so—I am quite sure that they did stop, because there was no gas in the room, and I had to supply them with paraffin lamps, which were placed on a chair, fixed on a large mahogany dining table, and they complained of the heat which the lamps gave out to their heads—William Kurr was there from day to day during the whole time the place was occupied—he and Benson were for hours together, and the two younger ones were sent out as if to deliver messages on behalf of the other two—they all stayed till 9 o'clock that night; that is the answer I give—the date of the agreement is the 31st August—I will not undertake to pledge myself to any number of times William Kurr was there, but a great number, dozens, in and out, out of the twenty-eight days—I have not a doubt he was there twenty days; I believe he was only away one day or two days, that is my belief—there were other reasons why we should know what time they left; they sent downstairs to horrow towels to dry their hands upon almost every night they were in the place—there were a number of reasons to call our attention to the time they went away—I have never gone by any other name than Flintoff, I swear that—I am a well-known public lecturer, and have been for a quarter of a century, in every large town in the kingdom—I never went by the name of Wright—I was never secretary to any gas company under that name—I was once bankrupt, in consequence of being mixed up with a Dublin company who owed me 500l. or 600l.—I was arrested for a debt, having made myself liable for 100l., and I believe the very solicitor who is prosecuting this case was solicitor against me then, but I passed through the Court without the slightest delay in any form or shape—there was never any prosecution about a bill of sale that I had given of my property—I had a sister-in-law of the name of Wright—there was no question of a bill of sale that had been given to her—I was never charged with having given a fraudulent bill of sale—I was twice bankrupt; the last was in 1862, I think, when I was arrested by a Dublin company—I was in prison under remand in the ordinary way; it was under the old Insolvency Act, of 1849 and 1850—I was never examined as to having given a bill of sale to my wife's Bister, Miss Wright, I am quite sure of that—I don't know any one called Webster—I have carried on business in Fleet Street as a stationer; I carried it on in my own name, not in the name of Wright—I never carried on business in the name of Wright.

Cross-examined by MR. STRAIGHT. There are three rooms on my ground floor—the street door was always kept shut—the tenants had a latch key—the door into the office is on the left; there were two doors to the office—one room is in front with two windows looking into the street, the room adjoining has a large window looking into the back yard, the third room is a kind of strip cut off from the second room, a continuation of it—I have been into the office when the prisoners have been there—I always thought that Bale and Chapman were under the orders of the others; they did not sit in a room by themselves they were generally in the front room, but continually going backwards and forward; they all used the rooms in common—when something was said about an advertisement being shown me I am not sure whether Bale was present, I don't know whether he was or not—I believe he

was not present at the first taking and signing the agreement, he came in a short time afterwards.

Cross-examined by MR. WILLIAMS. I would not swear that I opened the door once to Murray, I am not sure about it, this is not the first time I have expressed the opinion, I said the same at Marlborough Street.

Cross-examined by MR. AVORY. I don't undertake to swear that Benson was ever at the rooms until 9 o'clock in the evening, I am not quite sure that he stayed so late as that; if I said they were all four there till 9 o'clock I did not mean to include Benson, because I don't think he ever stayed so late as that, but he stayed beyond his usual hour of 5 o'clock on several occasions—I know he has stayed later than 6 o'clock, I will tell you why, because it was Benson that complained to me about the heat of the naptha lamp affecting his head; that must have been after 9 o'clock, it was in the summer—I think I only saw the man Pierre once or twice—he came to the office once or twice after Benson had left to know whether anybody had been making inquiries about him, he spoke in English, I am sure of that—I do not understand French—I don't know that my wife was present when he came, very likely she was—I did not know that they were going to leave; until they actually did leave—I know they left the day before their time expired; they sent for me on the 26th to say that they were going to leave I saw them—I went into the office and had a conversation with Kurr and Brooks; they said they were about to leave the premises because the business did not answer—Brooks spoke, he said they had come too far south and were going to the north again and as I was a smoker they wished to present me with a meerchaum pipe; that was what I was sent for, to have it given to me, and they did give it me—they said they were going directly, and they did go directly.

Re-examined. Brooks and William Kurr were present during the conversation when the meerschaum pipe was given to me.

GEORGE HALL . During part of last year I was foreman at the Northumberland Hotel, Northumberland Street—during part of that year I took refreshments to No. 8, Northumberland Street—I cannot speak to the month—I saw three of the prisoners there, Benson, William Kurr, and Frederick Kurr—I have seen them coming in and out the Northumberland Hotel during the day and I have seen them at No. 8—I may have seen the other two but I should not like to say—I believe I have seen Murray there coming in and out of the Northumberland Hotel—I am not able to say whether I saw him at No. 8.

Cross-examined by MR. WILLIAMS. I won't swear that I ever saw him.

Cross-examined by MR. SERGEANT PARRY. I was examined at the police-court—I said there that I would not swear to Murray—I said "I have seen Murray and Benson there—I may have seen the others but I have no belief one way or the other"—I have a belief that I saw the others—I did not see William Kurr—I do not know whether he was there or not—I believe those three I mentioned are the men, and I may have seen Murray—I did not know their names at the police court—I pointed out the two—my belief is that I did see those three gentlemen.

GEORGE HENRY GOLDIE . I live at 24, Newton Street, Hoxton—I was in the service of William Kurr as groom, from the end of July to the end of September last year—I knew him as William Kurr—he kept a gig and used to drive it—I went with him to attend to it when he got down, and I came to fetch him again—he lived at 29, Marquis Road, Islington—during the

month of September I used to drive with him to No. 8, Northumberland Street, Strand, and leave him there—I took the gig away and came again for him in the evening about 5 o'clock—we used to go there about 9 o'clock or 10 o'clock in the morning—that was nearly every day I think through September—I know Benson, Bale, and Frederick Kurr—I have seen Benson at 29, Marquis Road, with my master—I have seen all the others there except Murray—T de not know him—I knew Benson as Mr. Young—I believe that was the name he went in—that was the name I remember—the others I knew as Bale and Frederick Kurr.

Cross-examined by MR. SERGEANT PARRY. I cannot say what part of September, I began to take my master there—I was sacked about the end of September, I cannot say whether it was after, the 20th or not, I cannot say whether my-master was away for eight or nine days in September, I cannot say that I did take him every day; I will not undertake to swear that he was not away for eight or nine days in the country at different times—I did not always come in the afternoon to fetch him—I sometimes took him in the morning, and did not fetch him in the afternoon—sometimes I took him to Stockwell; I do not know why he went there—I took him to other places as well, to the Elephant and Castle several times; I was in his service about two months; I do not think I got to 8, Northumberland Street, as late as 10 or 11 o'clock in the morning, I might, I cannot say; I remember going down to Croydon races in the gig—I do not know Tadworth or Epsom—I do not believe I went there with him—I do not know that he had race horses there, or at Epsom, in training by a man named Rowe.

Cross-examined by MR. BESLEY. I did not see Frederick Kurr there often, I saw him more in Northumberland Street than Marquis Road—I have seen him almost as many times in the one as the other; I cannot say how many—it might be three or four times that I saw him at Marquis Road—he never went to any races with me.

LAURA SALTER . I am servant to Mrs. Ireland, of 11, King Street, St. James's—she lets lodgings—on the 21st of August, Frederick Kurr came to take lodgings there—he told me his name was Andrew Montgomery—he engaged one room with a bed in it; he did not sleep there that night—he did the next night, and continued to do so until the 16th of September—he was in and out all day long—I remember some letters coming for him—they were foreign letters, all of them—sometimes thirty a day came—some registered letters came as well—they were addressed to Andrew Montgomery—while he was staying there he got some linen, and I marked it "A. M."—he left on Saturday, the 16th of September—he said he was going away; a great many persons called to see him between August and September, and more towards the end of the time he was there—just before he left I told him that someone had called and left no card or message—he said he was going to Ayr, in Scotland, and said he would call for his letters in a few days—he called on the Monday; there were some letters for him which I gave him—I did not see him again after that—a great many letters came for him after he left, which I gave to Inspector Druscovitch, and two or three I gave to Mr. Abrahams—when he left he said that if any letters came to him they were to be sent to the post-office Newmarket—I sent some of them there in consequence of his direction.

Cross-examined by MR. BESLEY. I went to Rotterdam in September last, I do not remember the day—I was away from Friday till Sunday—before that inquiries had been made about him, before he left in September—I did

not know I was going to Rotterdam, till the day I went—I do not remember that I had seen any detective or Mr. Abrahams before going—I do not remember seeing anyone—I was not shown a photograph before I went—I saw one after I came back; I saw Frederick Kurr in custody at Rotterdam—I knew I was going to see him: I know it was on the 21st of August, that he came because we had it down in the diary—I have not got it here—I saw him almost every day from the 21st August, up to the 16th of September not every day—I do not think there was anything to recall his face after be left—persons came and asked about him—I did not know who they were—I know now they were policemen—I know that Mrs. Ireland has said that someone else was Montgomery, and not Frederick Kurr—I gave a description of the person; I do not know whether Mrs. Ireland did; I was shown a photograph before I gave the description—no I gave the description first—I said the photograph was like the description I gave—it was after seeing that I saw Frederick Kurr in custody at Rotterdam—I then said he was the man; to the best of my belief he is—I am prepared positively to swear that he is the man.

Re-examined. The next time I saw him after he left onr house was at Rotterdam—I think I saw a photograph of him as I was going over to Rotterdam; it might be coming back, I am not sure—This (produced) is the photograph I saw, or one like it.

WILLIAM WOODWARD . I live at No. 2, Cleveland Row, St. James's, and let lodgings—in August last a person took a bedroom at my house—I afterwards recognised that person as Collings—it was Frederick Kurr—he gave me no name—he engaged the room for a friend—it was after he was in custody that he was pointed out to me as Collings—the friend's name was Jacob Francis—he said he was not positive when he was coming, but he secured the room—he paid a week in advance to do so, and I was to take in any letters that might come—a great many letters did come for Jacob Francis, and they were called for by the young gentleman that engaged the room—he called for them daily, or once or twice a-day—they were all foreign letters, a great many of them registered—I think he must have called for them about the 25th September, or it might have been later—he paid five weeks' rent, each week in advance—I made out the receipts in the name of Jacob Francis—I only saw Mr. Francis himself once on the 27th or 28th of August—he called at our place in the evening—it was the prisoner Benson—the name was given to me on a written piece of paper in order that we might receive the letters—two gentlemen came, Benson and Kurr—Benson said that he understood that his secretary had engaged him only a bedroom, and that he wished to engage a sitting-room and bedroom—I had not one vacant, but I told him I should have one on the 22nd September, and he agreed to take it—in the meantime he told me he was staying with Mrs. Lloyd Lindsay, in Berkshire—the rent was to be two guineas per week—he said that his secretary would call for letters and take them to him—I only know that his name was Francis by Mr. Kurr giving me that name on a piece of paper in order that I might receive the letters—Mr. Kurr called in the morning that Francis came and received a registered letter, and told me Mr. Jacob Francis would call that same evening, and they did come at that time.

Cross-examined by MR. WILLIS. I do not think more than four days at the outside elapsed between the rooms being taken for Mr. Francis and my seeing him—I think he came between 5 and 6 o'clock—I could not say for

half-an-hour—I afterwards saw him at Rotterdam—with that exception I only saw him on the evening of the 28th of August—he arrived by himself a few minutes before the other, within two minutes—they were present together in the house—I am not aware whether I have said that before or not—I am not sure whether the name of Francis was used whilst Benson was there—he agreed to take the sitting-room from the 22nd of September—that was to include the bedrooms at two guineas a week—Kurr paid one guinea per week for the one room—I was first spoken to about going to Rotterdam about two hours before I started—I had had three or four inquiries made by the police before that, and by a Trades Protection Society—they asked me a description of the person they wanted.

Cross-examined by MR. BESLEY. When my house is full I take in nine gentlemen—I have a wife—I let this room myself—Frederick Kurr had seen my wife on the day previous—I saw Frederick Kurr three or four days before the other person came—I did not understand then that he was the secretary—when Francis called he told me that he was his secretary—that was in Kurr's presence—he was pointed out to me at Marlborough Street as Collings, but no such name was used to me—I saw him three or four times a-day sometimes—I won't say I saw him every day—I was not always there when he called for letters—when I got to Rotterdam I did not say that I did not see the person there—I did see him, but really could not swear to him—it was a very dark room, and my eyes were very weak at the time, so they are now—they were not weak at the time he came to take the place, they got gradually worse—they have been getting bad for years—it was not on account of my sight that I said at Rotterdam that I did not like to swear to the man—there was a little alteration in him, he had a light moustache when I used to know him, but he had none at Rotterdam—I declined to swear to him there, and I should have done so had he not spoken—I should have come away without swearing to him—he spoke very few words there—I think he merely asked the sergeant or detective how long he was to be kept there—that was quite enough for me to recognise him—he spoke to me every time he came for the letters—every time I saw him we passed the compliments of the morning—that was how I knew his voice.

Re-examined. I have not the least doubt whatever about the man now—he had a very slight moustache when I first knew him—I firmly believe Benson to be Jacob Francis.

FREDERICK DEANE . I live at 12, St. James' Place—I take in lodgers—on 24th August last Frederick Kurr took a room there of my wife, in the came of Montgomery, and afterwards called for letters which I delivered to him: they were addressed to Charles Jackson, and were all foreign letters, some registered and some not—I saw Frederick Kurr and Bale together—Kurr introduced Bale as Charles Jackson, the lodger that the room was taken for—he gave a card with the name of Charles Jackson on it when the room was taken, he did not give his own name—the room was paid for five weeks, but Bale only slept there four or five nights—he came every day for letters, and several times a day; sometimes Kurr came for them—it was understood that Kurr was to have his letters if Jackson could not come himself—one day I counted thirty letters, all from. France, mostly with the post-mark of Gironde, and one day a newspaper from Gironde—they were delivered to Jackson and Kurr—one letter came which I was

going to give back to the postman, but it disappeared—when Jackson left he did not say where he was going.

Cross-examined by MR. STRAIGHT. On the first occasion that I saw Frederick Kurr, Bale was with him—I said before the Magistrate "The apartments were taken on 24th August, by Collings"—Bale came about the 30th, not on the 24th; I was out of town then—I came back about 2nd September; Bale had then slept one night there; he only slept thereabout four nights after that, I think,

Cross-examined by MR. BESLEY. I was away for nearly three weeks before 2nd September—I saw Jackson three or four times after that, it may be more—that includes the times when he came for the letters; they were handed to him and he walked away.

Re-examined. I saw Frederick Kurr about four or five times altogether; I think not more.

MARY ANN FORTUNE . I live at 11, Duke Street, St. James', and let lodgings—on Monday, 4th September, Bale called and took a room for a gentleman, in Paris, of the name of Ellerton, and he would call for letters for him—letters came, I think, on the Tuesday or Wednesday—they were foreign letters tied with green ribbon—I think they were registered—he paid for the room each week in advance, four weeks—I saw nobody else but Bale; he paid six guineas in all—during those weeks about thirty letters came addressed to T. Ellerton—the last day he came was on a Monday morning, I don't recollect the date—after he left a letter came from him requesting me to forward any letters to the post-office, Newmarket—other letters also came, which I kept and gave to the inspector.

Cross-examined by MR. STRAIGHT. He gave me no name as his own, but said letters would come for Ellerton—I saw no one else about the letters.

JANE BAILEY . I was servant to Mrs. Amer, 110, Jermyn Street—in September Bale came to rent a bedroom in the name of R. Gregory—he took it for a week but never slept there—two English letters and a telegram came for him addressed R. Gregory.

Cross-examined by MR. STRAIGHT. It was the latter end of September that he' came—he said "Should any letters come for me, please take them in; my name is Gregory."

FRANCES COX . I live at 51, Dante Road—on 22nd September, Murray took a lodging there in the name of Henry Wells—I said before it was on the 12th, but it was the 22nd—I produce the leaves of my book with the date—he stayed until the day of his arrest—when he first came he had a beard; he shaved it off two or three days before his arrest—it was a long thick beard—I had not known him before; he said he was a traveller—he did not tell me what he travelled in—he paid a week's rent in advance, 8s. he had breakfast next morning.

Cross-examined by MR. M. WILLIAMS. Whatever he had I put it down on the day he had it—I never saw any of the other prisoners—shaving his beard off did not make very much difference in his appearance; I did not take much notice of him, I saw him so seldom.

MADAME MARIE CECILE DE GONCOURT . (Interpreted). I live at the Chateau de Goncourt, in the department of the Marne, France—I was living there in August last—in that month I received by post this letter marked A also this newspaper and this circular (C). (This circular purported to be from Andrew Montgomery, requesting the witness to act as an

intermediary on his behalf, in certain betting transactions, for which a liberal commission was to be paid. The newspaper called "The Sport" purported to be the 1,711th number, and contained a leading article in commendation of the skill and knowledge of Montgomery in all racing matters; and the letter contained a glowing account of the profits to be realized in the transactions in which the writer was engaged.) I received the circular at the same time, and inside was a translation into French of the article in the English newspaper—I read the circular and the letter—on 2nd August I wrote a letter to A. Montgomery, Esq., as requested, and in reply received the letter marked E, in which was a cheque for 200l. on a similar form to the others—I sent it to Charles Jackson, of St. James's Place, London, and in September I received letter F, and on 5th September I wrote letter G and sent it to the post, I afterwards received letter H, in which was a cheque for 1,000l., and also this cheque for 20,000 francs, payable to Jacob Francis, 2, Cleveland Row, St. James's—this endorsement is in my writing—the cheque for 1,000l. was in the same form as the others—there was, I believe, only one cheque in the letter—I then received letter K with a cheque for 1,000l. and one for 4,000l.—all the cheques were in the same form, and they were all signed George Simpson—in consequence of that letter I forwarded a banker's draft for 30,000 francs to Francis in the letter marked L, and 4,000l. to Jackson—I sent back in letter M the cheque for 1,000l. which I had received—the indorsement on that draft is in my writing—on the same day I wrote a letter to Montgomery, the copy of which is marked N—I afterwards received letter 0, and on the same day the memorandum P through the post, and by the same post letter Q, which is signed "Montgomery," inconsequence of which I wrote letter R, and inclosed in it a draft for 50,000 francs, marked S,. and I endorsed my name on it—I had previously sent a telegram to Ellerton—on 14th September I received the telegram marked T—I also received by post the memorandum signed Thomas Ellerton, marked U, and by the same post letter V, in which was a cheque for 15,000l. in the same form as the others signed George Simpson—upon that I sent my draft W to England for 25,000 francs, dated 17th September, 1876, in a letter to Ellerton—this endorsement on it is in my writing—on 16th September I received telegram X from Montgomery, upon which I sent him telegram Y, and another (Z) to Ellerton—I also sent this letter (B 1) to Ellerton, and inclosed in it draft A 1 for 125,000 francs, this is my endorsement on it—on the same day I sent telegram C 1 to Ellerton, and telegram D 1 to Montgomery, and on the same day letter E 1 to Montgomery—I afterwards received letter F 1 from Montgomery, dated 18th September, in which were two cheques for 25,000l. each, both of which were signed George Simpson in the same form as before—I sent one of those cheques to Jackson, and the other to Francis—on 19th September I received by post from Ellerton letter G 1, and letter H 1, dated 19th September, from Jacob Francis—I sent back all the Royal Bank cheques which I had received, as mentioned in my letter, including the one for 15,000l.—I also sent to Jacob Francis this draft (A 3) for 3,000 francs, which is mentioned in this letter—it is endorsed in my writing—I also received letter I from Francis, dated 15th September—that was before I sent the cheque for 3,000 francs—I then sent to Montgomery telegram K 1, and received telegram L 1—I also received letter M 1 from Thomas Ellerton, dated 20th September, 1876—I then sent telegram N 1 to Montgomery, and received from him telegram O 1—on 21st September I sent telegram P 1 to Gregory, upon which I received from

Montgomery telegram Q 1—I afterwards received this memorandum (R 1) from Francis, and memorandum S 1 from Jackson—I also received these two envelopes and letter, dated 22nd September, in which were these two cheques for 10,000l. (produced)—I then sent three telegrams, the copies of which are marked U 1; also telegram W 1 from Ellerton, and X 1 from Montgomery, I thereupon sent telegram V 1 to Montgomery, and received Z 1, dated 23rd September, from Ellerton—in one of "those letters was this printed document (A 2)—two of the letters came in these two envelopes (B 3)—I have found them since I gave my evidence before—since giving evidence before the Magistrate I received these two letters (15 and 16) in the envelopes attached—when I received "Tie Sport" I believed it to be an English newspaper—I believed that the letters signed "A. Montgomery" were written by the Montgomery mentioned in that paper, and that he resided in King Street, Piccadilly, and that what the newspaper said about him was true; and that the telegram purporting to come from him, in reality did so—I believed that the cheques George Simpson were genuine; that Thomas Ellerton lived at 4, King Street, St. James's, and was a sworn book-maker; that all the documents were genuine and came from the persons whose names were affixed to them; and that the statements made in them were correct; it was in consequence of that that I sent my drafts—I obtained this draft (produced) on the Credit Lyonaise from my bankers, Messrs. Vallet, at Vitry le Franchise—in one of the later letters I was asked for a further sum of 30,000l., and I went to my bankers, at Vitry, to obtain it—they had not got that sum in their possession, and at that time I commenced to see by the signatures that the whole thing was fictitious, and it was in consequence of what passed between me and them that I consulted my notary, M. Chavance, at Vitry, and my bankers sent the documents to the office of the Credit Lyonaise, in London, and they were placed in the hands of Mr. Abrahams, the solicitor, about 23rd September.

Cross-examined by MR. WILLIS. The whole of the documents to which I have spoken were delivered to me by post in France—when I received letters 15 and 16 I was at my mother's house at St. Marneval, in the Department of the Haute Marne—I had been informed before that Benson had some relations in Paris, but whether a father or a brother 1 did not know—I have never seen any person representing himself as Benson's brother, nor did I receive any communication from him through M. Chavance.

A. C. WOODWARD. I come from the General Post-office and produce the originals of certain telegrams which were sent to France last year—the yellow ones are French telegrams, and the blue ones telegrams received in England, to be forwarded to France—I also produce other telegrams under my subpoena—the white ones are inland telegrams—I am asked to produce other telegrams, but under the rules of the office I am not allowed to do so—I have received a warrant from the Home Secretary of State. (The witness was ordered by the Court to produce them, and did so) I have produced six, they are all dated March, 1877—I have now produced them all.

CHARLES ALBERT . I am an interpreter, of Great Marlborough Street, and am acquainted with French and English; I have compared the various documents put in, with the originals—the document I now hold is a correct translation.

JOHN WHITEMAN . I am manager to Mr. Richards' a money changer of

Coventry Street—on 4th September, Bale brought some French notes, amounting to 5,800 francs which I changed into bank-notes and gold, amounting to 229l. 2s.—he called again on the 8th, and brought 10,000 francs in notes for which I gave him 395l. in Bank of England notes, at the rate of the day 25.30—I did not take the numbers of the notes I gave him—he showed me on that occasion a draft on the Credit Lyonaise for 20,000 francs—it had on it all the endorsements which it now bears except mine—he gave his name Jacob Francis, Cleveland Street, St. James's, and asked me to purchase it—I said "We shall send it for collection," and he left it for that purpose—Mr. Reinhardt endorsed it to Mr. Venables, a correspondent in Paris, and I sent it there and was in due course advised that it was paid—on the 9th he called again, and we paid him a crossed cheque for 1,282l. 5s. 9d.—he brought with him 12,500 francs in French bank-notes—he took the cheque away, that was in exchange for the draft and the. Notes—he returned later in the day bringing this letter. (Head: "Please give bearer open cheque instead of crossed one as I have several payments to make to-day, and oblige yours truly, Jacob Francis.") I gave him this fresh cheque open—on 12th September, he called again and brought 10,250 francs in French bank-notes, for which I gave him a cheque for 404l. 17s. 6d.—he had brought a letter from Jacob Francis, on the 11th, containing draft L" for 30,000 francs—we negotiated that through the London house of our Paris correspondent—on the 13th, he brought 12,500f. in French bank-notes for which I gave him a cheque for 1,000l., a cheque for 200l., and the balance in cash: 1,676 11s. 2d. in all for the draft and notes—on the 15th he brought 21375 francs in French notes, and this draft, for 50,000 franca, S, and this letter: "Be good enough to cash the enclosed notes 855l., also inform bearer the terms on which you will discount the draft for 50,000 francs"—we told him that we could not discount it all, but would collect it in the usual way, and he left it for collection—I paid him 844l. 6s. 3d. for the French money he brought—on the 18th he came again, and I gave him a cheque for 1,971l. 3s. 8d. for the 50,000 francs—on the 19th he brought a cheque for 3,000 francs (A 3), and another for 25,000 francs (W), and left them for collection—on the 20th he brought a draft on Paris for 185,000 francs (A 1), Mr. Reinhardt paid him next day, not in my presence.

Cross-examined by MR. STRAIGHT. Mr. Reinhardt and I conducted all these transactions between us, he has no private room, it all goes on in the office—when the first draft was brought the name of the person who wanted the money was given as Francis.

By THE COURT. There was in all 12,835l. 9s. 3d.

ALFRED SELMAN . I am a clerk to Barclay and Co., bankers, of Lombard Street—Staunton and Co. have an account there—on the day that it is dated I cashed this cheque of theirs for 316l. 16s: 6d., dated 21st September, 1876, in favour of Charles Reinhardt, with three Bank of England notes for 100l. each, numbered 63166, 63167, and 63168, all dated 28th January, 1876, three 5l. notes, 58034, 58035, and 58036, and 1l. 13s. 6d. in cash—I do not know who brought the cheque.

THOMAS WOOLRICH . I am a clerk in the London and County Bank, City branch—Alfred Venables and Co. have an account there—on 21st September we cashed this cheque. (This was for 4947l. 17s. 6d., drawn by H. S. Hopper, in favour of A. Venables and Co.) The bearer received forty-nine 100l. Bank of England notes, numbers 64751 to 64799, inclusive, dated 28th January, 1876, and the balance in smaller notes and cash.

THOMAS DAVIES JONES . I am a clerk at the Charing Cross branch of the Union Bank of London—we have a customer named Reinhardt-this (produced) is one of his cheques; we cashed it on 13th September, 1876, over the counter, with ten 100l. notes, numbers 58359 to 58368, dated 28/1/76—I have ho belief about any of the prisoners—on 15th September I cashed a cheque for 800l., which I have not got, and on 18th September a cheque for 1971l. 3s. 8d., for which I gave one 1,000l. note, number 63101, dated 15/1/71, one 500l. note, number 41374, dated 15/6/75, one for 300l., number 35844, September 16th, 1875, one for 100l., number 16071, one for 50l., number 76372, 27/1/76, one for 20l., number 45337, 26/1/76, and 1l. 3s. 8d. in cash—on 15th September I cashed Reinhardt a cheque for 800l.—I cannot tell you in whose favour as I have only the drawer's name in my book—I gave eight 100l. notes, numbers 58376 to 58383, 28/1/76.

Cross-examined by MR. STRAIGHT. The entries are in my writing. Edwin Blundell. I am a clerk in the Union Bank of London, Charing Cross—this cheque for 1,282l. 5s. 9d. is Mr. Reinhardt's—I cashed it across the counter on 9th September, and gave twelve 100l. notes, 41401 and 41402 and 47594 to 47560 and 52453 and 52454, all dated 28/1/76, a 50l. Bank of England note, 66319, 27/1/76, three 10l. notes, 16643 to 16645, 21/12/75, and 2l. 5s. 9d. in cash—on 13th November I cashed across the counter Reenhardt's cheque for 200l

CHARLES REINHARDT . I am a money-changer, of 14, Coventry Street—this (produced) is an account of the transactions between me and J. Francis's representative—there are three sums, making a total of 6,032l. 2s. 11d. I paid that amount myself to Bale, but I knew Kurr by the name of Roberts—he signed in my my presence over the stamp this "September 21st, S. Roberts, for J. Francis"—these forty-nine 100l. notes are what I paid to him; I know them by my private mark, and the remainder in cash—I have traced the notes to the persons to whom they were paid—I was paid all those notes over the counter at Venables'—the forty-nine notes came to 4,900l., and I also paid three 100l. notes, which came from Barclay and Co. to me numbered 63166 to 63168, 28/1/76—they have my private mark on them—I also gave him eight 100l. notes which I received from the Union Bank—they did not bear my private mark, but I can recognise them—they are numbers 58272 to 58274 and 58374 to 58388, 28/1/76; that makes 6,000l., and the remainder in cash—Francis addressed me by letter.

FRANK LEE . I am a clerk in the London and County Bank, Hammersmith branch—on 27th September I opened an account with Frederick Kurr, in the name of Jacob Francis—he signed this cheque for 95l. in my presence and paid it in with a 100l. Bank of England note, which I do not know the number of—I should hand it to the waste-book keeper, Webster, and it would be his duty to enter it in the waste-book—he said that he had come to reside in the neighbourhood and wished to transfer his account from the Bayswater branch—he signed this signature-book (produced)—the address entered in it is 113, Goldhawk Road, Shepherd's Bush, in his own writing—I gave him two books, each containing fifty cheques—on 25th September he drew out 90l. by cheque in favour of R. Gregory or bearer, which was presented at the counter and paid.

Cross-examined by MR. BESLEY. I believe I paid it but I do not know to

Whom—I understood that the person who came was a customer at our other bank; I bad never seen him before—it was about the middle of the day, I think—I never saw him again till I was at the police-court on 18th February I believe—I do not think the clerk from the Bayswater branch was there, I saw Mr. Pace there—I did not hear any clerk speak to Murray as a customer.

J. R. WEBSTER. I am waste book-keeper at the Hammersmith branch of the London and County Bank—on 20th September Frank Lee handed me this 100l. Bank of England note 63168 dated 28th January, 1876.

ARTHUR PACE . I am a clerk at the London and County Bank, Bayswater branch—on 22nd February, 1876, the prisoner William Kurr opened an account there in the name of William Richardson—he was introduced by another customer, Henry Wilson, and wrote his signature in a book which is not here, as we cannot spare it (The witness was ordered to fetch the book)

THOMAS ATTWOOD . I am a clerk in the London and County Bank, Kensington branch—on 22nd September James Edwards opened an account there—he referred to Jacob Francis, 2, Cleveland Row, St. James'—we afterwards received this letter. (This was signed Jacob Francis, stating that Jams Edwards was a young gentleman of great respectability and in affluent Circumstances.) The account was opened with 100l. note which was handed to Mr. Burgon, our waste-book clerk.

WILLIAM BURGON . I am waste book-keeper at the London and County Bank, Kensington branch—on 22nd September, I received from Mr. Attwood a 100l. note, number 63167, 28th January, 1876.

DUNCAN MACINTOSH . I am a porter at McCray's Hotel, 152, Bath Street, Glasgow—I know Benson, Bale, and Frederick Kurr—Benson came there in September last, I cannot fix the date; he had a servant with him, a I foreigner, whose name I do not know, but this (produced) is his photograph—Benson did not enter his name in the visitor's book—he was lame and walked with two sticks—he had a private sitting-room and two bed-rooms and stayed seven days—no letters came for him, he always went in the morning to the post-office, which is about a mile off—he never went out except in a cab, sometimes with his servant, but not very often—he was visited by Bale and Frederick Kurr—Frederick Kurr came the oftenest, once, twice, and sometimes three times a week, he gave no name—Bale came, once a day, he gave no name; some names were given in at the bar if any letters came, but I forget them—the three dined together and played at cards afterwards.

Cross-examined by SERGEANT PARRY. I cannot swear whether this was at the beginning or the end of September, as we were so busy at the time I could not even swear that it was September—we have a visitors' book, but rooms are generally taken by the numbers—we should say "23 has rang the bell," but we should know who 23 was.

JOHN PEARSON . I am a porter at White's Union Hotel, Glasgow—Bale and Frederick Kurr stayed there from 27th September to 4th October; they gave their names Elliott and Wells, but I do not know which was which—we are ten minutes or a quarter of an hour's walk from Mr. Cray's Hotel—they received from four to six telegrams a day—they did not state where they were going when they left—they left some underclothing to be washed which has not been sent for that I am aware of.

Cross-examined by MR. STRAIGHT. I fix the date by the book, I have a copy of it in my pocket—they did not write in the visitors' book, whoever is in the bar writes the names.

JOHN GRAHAM . I am an agent of the City of Glasgow Bank, Trongate branch—on Friday, 29th September, about 3 o'clock, Benson came there—I did not know him before—he said that he wanted to open a lodging and drawing account with us, that no bills would be required to be discounted, but he wanted to have facilities to pass cheques in the accounts in Edinburgh and Dundee, as his business led him there to do business as a diamond merchant—he brought a bundle of notes out of a bag and proceeded to count them—I said "You had better take them to the teller, who receives the money"—I got the signature-book (produced) and he wrote this "M. Coster"—he said that he was staying at McCrae's Hotel but intended to go to some lodgings which he had taken—the cheque clerk wrote this address—I took Benson to the teller and he got this pass-book to take to the telling table that the money he paid might be entered in it—he put his initials "M. C." on the notes at my suggestion and deposited 1,735l.—the notes were sent to our head office in Manchester—on 30th September he presented this cheque for 1,000l. and I expressed my astonishment at his sending in a cheque for so large an amount so soon after opening the account, as it is unusual for a stranger to open an account and the very next morning to take away the major part of it so early in the morning, and I said that I had omitted to have a reference from his firm in London—he then wrote "M. Costa and Co., Austin Friars, London," and said that his bankers were Rothschilds—he said that the cheque was for a parcel of diamonds which were offered to him and he required the money to pay for them—I asked him to come again at 12 o'clock that we might have a communication with Manchester, as it was Saturday—I also communicated with the head office, Glasgow—on 3rd October he sent his servant, Frederick Kurr, with this letter. (This was doled Glasgow, October 3rd, and signed W. Cotter, stating that after what had passed there was no alternative but to withdraw his account, and his clerk was, therefore, armed with a cheque for the balance.) I asked Kerr how long he had been connected with the firm of Costa and Co.—he said that he was merely the servant and could give no information about their affairs—I initialled the cheque and it was cashed for Kurr—these are two of the notes with which he opened the account, a 10l. 16645, and a 5l., 85,565—they both have "M. C." marked on the back.

ALEXANDER TATT . I am teller at the Trongate Branch of the City of Glasgow bank—on 29th September Benson came there and wrote this paying in slip—he handed me 1,735l. in notes and put his initials on them—next day Saturday I cashed a cheque for him for 1,000l. in 100l. notes of the City of Glasgow Bank—we do not keep the numbers of notes at the branch, it is not the custom in Scotland—we know the numbers of the notes that are in circulation, but we do not know where they are—on 3rd October I paid another cheque of Mr. Coster's for 735l. I cannot say in what money but I fancy there must have been six 100l. notes—no record was kept of them—I remember that the servant asked for some gold before he received any notes and I had not much on hand—Frederick Kurr is the person.

ALEXANDER RANKIN HORN . I am agent of the Clydesdale Bank, Trongate Branch, Glasgow—on 29th September, Benson came there and asked if I was Mr. Horn—"I said "Yes,"—he said that he wished to open a deposit account a working account—that requires no discount, and no overdraft—he gave

his name M. Coster and said that he was a son of the senior partner in M. Coster fils of Paris and Amsterdam, and of Costa Brothers, bullion and diamond merchants who were engaged in very large transactions, and that their firm was also established at Sun Franciscio and at Cairo—I pressed him for local references he said that he had but lately come to Glasgow and was unknown, but he mentioned Lord McDonald—I asked him "Lord MacDonald of the Isles?" but I do not think he gave me any answer—he wrote this paper (produced) except the word Trongate at the top—it is in my writing—I agreed to open an account with him and he paid in 5,900l. in notes, the majority of which were 100l. notes but there was one for 500l.—he signed the signature book and wrote this paying in slip (produced)—I took the notes to the head office and delivered them to Mr. Shanks—next day he came again and wrote this cheque for 2,500l. which he said was to pay two captains of Greenock—I recommended him to take two exchange orders of 1,250 each which he did, and took them away; but afterwards brought them back and said that the parties refused to take them and he must have money—I paid him six or seven 100l. Clydesdale notes, and some 200l. notes, and the rest were all 20l. notes—I made three copies of the numbers, one of which I gave to Mr. Shanks—on 2nd October he came and paid in 800l. in eight 100l. notes—this is the paying in Blip in his writing the numbers were 58376 and 58383 inclusive 28/1/76—these are them (produced)—he said that he had only received 800l. as he expected a larger remittance but had been disappointed, but was satisfied that by tomorrow the remittance would be to hand—he said that he wanted the money for a cargo at Greenock and wished to get a letter of credit on his Greenock bank; but as he should require that early in the morning he should not be able to get the money and should be very much obliged if I would write down stating that a letter of credit would be issued—he said that he should want about 10,000l. and expected more money so that he could get a letter of credit from us for about 10,000l.—on Tuesday morning, October 3rd, he paid in 5,800l. of which, 5,600l. was in fifty-six 100l. notes, and 200l. in Clydesdale notes—the numbers were 58372 to 58373 and 58374, 28/1/76, and four 100l. notes, 58384, and 58385, and 58386 and 58387 of the same date—I am speaking from entries in our books by a clerk who is not here and I do not know his name—the cheque for 10,000l. closed the account—I wrote this letter to him (produced) and gave it to be posted—Coster wrote what is on this small slip attached to the letter in my presence—I gave Shanks the 5,900l. but not the 5,800l.

WILLIAM SHANKS . I am exchange teller in the Glasgow Office of the Clydesdale Bank—I received from Mr. Horne 5,900l. in Bank of England notes and entered the numbers at the time—there were fourty-one 100l. notes 58359 to 58368 inclusive 53428 to 53437, 47594 to 47601, 56941 to 56943, 52453 and 52554, 44401 and 44402, all dated 20/1/76; 003 and 008, 28/1/76; five 200l. notes 27059, 29090 and 29091, 30232 and 30233, all dated 29/1/76; a 500l. note 41374, 15/6/75; and a 300l. note 35844, 16/9/75.

DAVID GOURLY . I am a teller in the Trongate branch, of the Clydesdale Bank, Glasgow—Trongate is part of Glasgow—Mr. Horne is the agent of the bank; on 3rd October, the prisoner Benson came and paid in 5,800l.; I was present when he made out this paying-in slip—he first asked if the manager was in—I said that he had not arrived—he asked when I expected him—I said "About 9.45."—he asked if I knew about a transaction which was to take

place—I said that I did—he appeared a little anxious and spoke about a train—I gave him a blank draft which he filled up for 10,000l. on the Greenock branch of our bank—he said that he was expecting a draft for 20,000l. on the Commercial Bank, Glasgow—he said that it would be necessary that he should open an account with our bank—I said that it would not be necessary, we could collect it for him—he went away taking the draft with him—I did not see him again till January.

JOHN WHITEMAN (re-examined). I cashed Mr. Rienhardt's cheque of 15th September at the Union Bank, and paid Bale in cash—I believe there were eight 100l. notes.

ROBERT DARGIE . I am a teller at the Greenock branch of the Clydesdale Bank—on the 3rd October I received a letter, enclosing Mr. Coster's signature—two or three hours afterwards the prisoner Benson called and presented to me a draft for 10,000l.—I offered him an exchange voucher for it, which states "We promise to pay," but he said that he wanted the money—he endorsed the draft in my presence, and I gave him 100 new 100l. notes; I did not take the numbers—these notes produced are similar to them, but there is no mark on them.

ALEXANDER BRANDER . I am a teller and accountant in the Union Bank of Scotland, Glasgow, Jamaica Street, branch—on 2nd October, Bale called and said that he wanted to open an account, he gave his name, J. Elliott, and said that he was an advertising agent, but had no office in Glasgow, but was staying at the Union Hotel—he gave me a 20l. note of the Clydesdale Bank, and a cheque on the Hammersmith Branch of the London and County Bank for 103l. 10s., drawn by Jacob Francis, payable to self or bearer—Bale endorsed it in my presence, "J. Elliott"—I asked him to do so—he signed the signature-book, and I gave him two books of thirty cheques each, payable to bearer, and told him I would place the 20l. to his credit and send the cheque to London for collection—I filled up this paying in slip, which he signed—he called again next day and said that he wanted 30l., as he had some small payments to make—I had not received any advice about the large cheque, and I gave him 20l. in 1l. notes, for which he wrote this cheque for 20l.—he called again next day, October 4th, and I told him we had got an acknowledgment of our letter by post-card, but that it would be another day or two before we heard—he said that he would call again, but did not, and the balance is still in our hands—this "I per cent 2s." is the interest we allow on private accounts.

ARTHUR PACE . I am a clerk at the Bayswater branch of the London and County Bank—on 22nd February William Kurr came and opened an account in the name of William Richardson, Rose Bank, Shanklin, Isle of Wight—I have the signature-book here—I saw him write that—he paid in a cheque of Henry Wilson, for 205l. 15s. 6d.—this is his pass-book—he described himself as a diamond merchant—I afterwards received and paid this cheque of his, dated 4th December, 1876; it is not in his pass-book; it is not written up to that date.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT PARRY. I do not produce the cheque with which the account was opened, it is entered as "cash"—we enter all credits in that way—here are entries of August 3rd, 150l. and September 19th, 100l., both those were in Bank of England notes—an entry has to be made to complete the account, there is a small balance of 5l. 13s. 5d. still standing.

PERCY ELVIS ELLIOTT . I am a clerk in the Bayswater branch of the

London and County Bank—on 25th September an account was opened there by Bale in the name of Richard Gregory, 110, Jermyn Street—he signed this signature-book—I put down the word "gentleman" as being of no occupation—he paid in 170l. in 10l. Bank of England notes, and signed this paying-in slip, which I made out; I did not take the numbers of the notes—on 7th November an account was opened in the name of Jacob Francis, I took the account, I cannot remember the person—this is the entry in the signature-book "Jacob Francis, 2, Cleveland Row, St. James"—100l. was deposited in small Bank of England notes; this is the paying-in slip.

JOHN MUIRHEAD . I am accountant to the Anderson branch of the Clydesdale Bank, 344, Argyll Street, Glasgow—on 2nd October an account was entered at our bank in the name of William Reynolds, by Frederick Kurr; I have the signature-book and the cash-book—he signed the name here "William Reynolds," and deposited 232l. 10s.; a 20l. Scotch note and two cheques—he wrote the paying-in slip, and I initialed it—these are the two cheques, they are on the London and County Bank, both endorsed William Reynolds—the next day he drew this cheque for 20l. which I paid in twenty Clydesdale Bank notes of 1l. each—he said he would call again to see if the cheques had been honoured, but he did not, the balance of 212l. 10s. still stands to his credit—I gave him a cheque-book containing thirty cheques at the time he paid in the money.

Cross-examined by MR. BESLEY. The first interview lasted it might be about five or eight minutes, and the second about five minutes; and that was all I saw of him—I did not go to Rotterdam; I did not see the person between 3rd October and his being in custody at Marlborough Street.

ALEXANDER ANDERSON . I keep the Queen's Hotel, at the Bridge of Allan—on 3rd November last, about 8 o'clock a.m., Benson and William Kurr came there, Benson came first with a servant who was called Penchant or some name like that, Benson gave the name of Young, he brought some luggage with him—he had a private parlour and two bedrooms., he complained of missing a large deal box which had been left at King's Cross, marked P P—on 4th November, I went to the station with the servant and sent a telegram to the stationmaster at Edinburgh about the box—on that afternoon William Kurr came, a bedroom had been taken for him by Benson—he used the same sitting room as Benson, they dined together—Kurr went by the name of Captain Gifford, I know Mr. Monteith, the manager of the Alloa branch of the Clydesdale Bank—Benson wished to know if I knew where he lived; I said I would find out, I did not know—I did find out and Benson gave me a card to send to Mr. Monteith—at that time or shortly afterwards I was introduced to a gentleman named Meiklejohn; Benson gave me this card on which is written "Mr. John Meiklejohn, inspector of detective police, Great Scotland Yard, S.W. Mr. Monteith will be kind enough to come to the Queen's Hotel as soon as possible"—I did not know before who Meiklejohn was, no doubt he was there, but I did not know him, he introduced these persons to the manager of the bank—by Benson's desire I telegraphed to the Stirling Arms, at Dumblane, to have dinner—ready prepared at 2 o'clock on Sunday for five persons—two men came and visited Benson in the morning, they were supposed to be Goller and Wilson from Glasgow—on Thursday, 9th of November, Benson ordered a carriage to go to Alloa, that is 7 miles from the Bridge of Allan—he went in the carriage, I think two persons went with him, but I could not be quite sure,

Captain Gifford was with him, I believe in the carriage, but I won't be certain—they both came back in the afternoon—while they were at my hotel a good many telegrams came for them—on the 10th, about 6.30 p.m., Mr. Monteith came and dined with them—about 8 o'clock, a telegram came which was handed to William Kurr; he went upstairs with it; he showed it to a youngman in the front hall of the hotel, I don't know who he was, he did not dine in the parlour with them, he dined in the coffee-room—Kurr, walked upstairs to the sitting-room, that he had occupied with Benson, where the dinner was—up to that time I had no notion that they were going to leave—previous to that, Pierre the servant said they were going to stay a good deal longer—they got ready to go, Gifford and the youngman went south by the 9.9 train at night, and Benson went at 10.40 north to Inverness, with his servant—before he left he paid his bill with a 100l. Clydesdale note—he paid the bill for the whole, the young man, the servant, and all—the young man came that evening, he might have been there before, but that was take time I saw him—Benson told me to keep his rooms till Monday—the box that was telegraphed for came before they left—Benson told me if any letters or telegrams came to keep them till Monday, till they came to occupy the rooms again—someone came for the letters on Saturday afternoon; I could not be certain who it was; Bale is a little like him, but I could not be certain—I have no belief on the subject—he looked much stouter than this man does now—letters and telegrams did come for them after they left, I gave them to Inspector Druscovitch, I refused to give them to the man.

Cross-examined by MR. WILLIS. It was on Sunday, the 5th, that Goller and Wilson came—they came with Captain Gifford—Benson breakfasted by himself that morning, and went off in the carriage by himself towards Dumblane—I did not see Benson in company with those two men—before—the box came the servant said he had not a shirt to wear.

Cross-examined by MR. SARJEANT PARRY. It was the French servant who called Kurr Captain Gifford; he passed by the name of Gifford—he did not call himself "Captain," the servant and the waiters called him Captain Gifford—one day Benson went to Alloa in a carriage by himself—I could not be certain whether it was on the Tuesday or Wednesday following their arrival—I did not know Meiklejobn at all—I could not be quite certain how long he stayed there—he was supposed to be there on the Saturday evening, the 4th—I could not be certain whether Benson had his portmanteau ready to leave when Kurr handed the telegram to him—I could not say either way; he was at the bottom of the stairs in the front hall when the telegram came—I think he read it with the young man that came out of the coffee-room—he was downstairs and I saw the boy give him the telegram—I saw William Kurr from the Friday afternoon the 3rd, until the 10th, when he left—I did not see him every day, nearly so; just as I saw all my visitors—there was not the slightest concealment about him—I think his appearance is much about the same now as it was then—the names were put in the visitor's book; I don't know who put them in.

Re-examined. My wife is not here; she is unwell and not able to travel—I was not present when she was examined before the Magistrate, I was in Scotland.

MICHAEL ABRAHAMS . I am the solicitor conducting this prosecution—I was present in Court when Mrs. Anderson was examined as a witness—

the prisoners were present and had an opportunity of cross-examining, and I believe they did cross-examine—I was there the whole time.

The deposition of Isabella Anderson was read as follows: "I am the wife of Alexander Anderson, of the Queen's Hotel, Bridge of Allan. I remember a man named Young coming to our hotel on the 3rd of November. Benson is the man whom I knew as Mr. Young. His servant came with him. The photograph produced is that of his servant. He said he expected some friends, and would require one or two more rooms—he did not mention their names. On the following day a gentleman came by the 3 o'clock train from the south; he was called by Young, Mr., and by the servant, Captain, Gifford. He occupied the same sitting-room as Young until the evening of the 10th, when all three left. I saw them mostly every day. I have no doubt about Benson being Young. Kurr is very like Gifford, but I did not see him so often. I have very little doubt as to his identity; I don't think I have any doubt. I never saw Meiklejohn to my knowledge; I did not know him. I remember their going out on the Sunday. I remember Mr. Menteith coming on the night of the 10th; they did not gay where they were going. I had received no notice that they were going to leave. One or two gentlemen visited them; I did not hear their names; they are not present.

Cross-examined. I saw Gifford often, but only saw him to speak to on one occasion. He spoke to me about a carriage; the others were present. They wanted to go to Alloa. I have seen them pass in and out; the hotel was not full at that time."

ALEXANDER MONTEITH . I am agent for the Clydesdale Bank, at Alloa—I formerly lived at the Bridge of Allao—I know a person named John Meiklejohn—I believe he is now an inspector of police on the Midland Railway Company, and was then—on 4th November I found the card that has been produced, in consequence of which I went to the Queen's Hotel next day—I did not then see the person who sent the card, and I went back to my house—about 5.45 on Sunday evening, the 5th November, Benson called—a card was handed to me by the servant—he told me that he had been up to Dumblane at various times with some friends—I was going out at the time and he asked if I would drive down to the town with him, and I did so, and left him at the Queen's Hotel—he asked me to call next morning and breakfast with him, when I would meet Meiklejohn—I declined to breakfast with him, but said that I would call about 7.30 in the morning—the card was brought up to my room; there was an introduction on the back of the card—I told the servant to show the gentleman in, and I went downstairs with the card in my hand; this is the card—nothing was said about the card—he rose from his chair and I shook hands with him and said "You are Mr. Young," or some remark of the kind—he said he would call on business, he did not fix a day—he called on the 7th at the bank at Alloa—he said he wished to open a bank account; he did open it in the name of Henry Young, in English notes to the amount of 2,600l.—the paying-in slip was filled up by myself and he signed it—the notes he paid in were one 100l. Clydesdale note, 1,600l. in 20l. Clydesdale notes, and nine 100l. notes of the City of Glasgow—he did not say what he was—we have no signature-book, the signature is on the paying-in slip—I saw him on 8th November—I called at the hotel and asked if he had any money to be lodged to his account to save him the trouble of coming; he had said he was going to pay in more money—he then said he had none—I then left—I was only with him a few minutes—on the 9th he called

at the bank at Alloa, along with Mr. Gifford (William Kerr)—he told me that his friend, Mr. Gifford, was going to open an account—he did not say what he was, but he said it would be a good account—the account was opened—I got 500l. in Scotch notes from Gifford; I don't know their amounts—this is the paying-in slip that he signed—at the same time Benson paid in 400l. to his own account—this is the paying-in slip—this is the cash-book containing the account—I am not able to distinguish between the notes of the 500l. and the 400l., but they consisted of four 100l. notes of the Clydesdale Bank, fifteen 20l. notes of the same and two 100l. notes of the Royal Bank of Scotland—Gifford gave his address at the Bridge of Allan—Benson asked me to dine with him the next day, the 10th, at 6.30—I consented to do so, and went there at that time—William Kurr was in the room when I went in, they were both together—about 8 o'clock William Kurr went out of the room—he returned in a few minutes and said that he had got a telegram; I did not see it—he and Benson spoke to each other regarding it—I did not hear what they said, they were sitting a little way off, on the other side of the room—Benson said that his friend was going to Hamilton that evening; that is not far from Glasgow—he asked Gifford if he would like him to accompany him—he did not say that he would—I understood that they agreed to go together—they were out of the room for some time; they came back together and made some arrangement about going together, as I understood—I left shortly after 8 o'clock—they apologised for leaving me so suddenly—this cheque (59) is Young's signature, and this (60) is Gifford's—(looking at two others) I can't say whether this first one is in Young's writing; the other appears to be in Gifford's, I can't say.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT PARRY. It was before the telegram arrived that Young said that Gifford was going to Hamilton, I think before we had sat down to dinner—you have to go to Glasgow in order to get to Hamilton—I do not remember that Gifford apologised for having to leave the dinner table early; he did leave the table for a short time, and then returned with the telegram—I cannot give you the exact notes that were paid in in the 500l. deposit—I made this memorandum about the 900l. in City of Glasgow notes from my memory, not more, I think, than a week afterwards—I have no entry in my book of what notes were paid in—this slip was written before I was at the police-court, it may have been written a month after November 9th—I am not aware that I invited Kurr to open an account—I did not say that I had a commission for the number of accounts that were opened, nor is it the fact that I have a commission—something was said about the account being transferred to a London agent.

JOHN MCCLELLAN . I am a waiter at the Waverley Hotel, Princes Street, Edinburgh—on 4th November a man named Wilson was staying there—he was not one of the prisoners—he left on the 9th—he was visited, I believe, by the barefaced man (Frederick Kurr), who stayed all Tuesday night—he did not breakfast with Wilson on Saturday morning, the 4th—three men came that morning and breakfasted with Wilson, Bale was one of them.

Cross-examined by MR. STRAIGHT. I said before "He is like the man, but I cannot swear to him"—he had whiskers and a moustache just as they are now.

Cross-examined by MR. BESLEY. A good many people stay at the Waverley Hotel—I waited on Wilson and his two friends—the barefaced one came on

Tuesday, the 7th at he had nothing to do with the breakfast—I cannot aware to him.

WILLIAM MUREY . I am accountant in the Clydesdale Bank, Alloa branch—on Nth November the prisoner Murray presented this cheque for 3,000l. and this cherub to William Gifford for 500l.—I said "I cannot pay them," and I think I said I had received a telegram telling me not to pay them—he went away, taking the chouse with him—I sent a clerk to bring him back, and he came back with the clerk and presented the chouse again—I then took down the numbers and dates, and to whom payable—while I was doing so he endeavoured to take them from under my hand, saying that he did not want the money—I gave them back to him and he left, after which I had a communication with the superintendent of police, Mc. Donald, who brought Murray back to the bank—I told the superintendent that I had heard from Glasgow—they remained for a short time in the office, and came back again and made further inquiries—I showed him the telegram I had received—we asked Murray his name; he said Henry Munro, 9, Amos Terrace, Victoria Road, Leytonstone, Essex—I asked him who Mr. Carsons was, to whom the cheques were made payable; he said a Liverpool merchant, a friend of his who had asked him to come to Alloa for the money—I asked him why Mr. Carsons did not get the money in Liverpool himself—he said that Mr. Carsons considered it better that he should send direct for it—I allowed him to go.

Cross-examined by MR. WILLIAMS. I identified him without any difficulty at Marlborough Street.

JOHN MCDONALD . I am superintendant of police at Alloa—on 14th November, I took Murray into custody as he was going to the Commercial Hotel—he wore a beard at the time—I said that I wanted to speak to him as I understood he had presented a cheque on the Clydesdale Bank, and I must detain him—he asked who I was—I told him I was a superintendent of police—he said that it was all right—I asked him for the cheques, he produced them, and I asked for them into my hands—he asked if it was necessary, I said "Yes" and I got them and said that I should keep them—he said "Is there anything wrong?" and asked me who Gifford and Yonge the drawers of the cheques were as they were unknown to him, and said that he got the cheques from Mr. Carsons a friend of his in Liverpool—I asked him who Carsons was; he said a speculator in bonds who asked him to go to Scotland for the money and he would give him 20l. for himself—I asked his name—he said Henry Munro, 9, Amos Terrace, Victoria Road, Leytonstone—I took him to the bank and had a conversation with Mr. Murray—I have heard what Murey has said to-day, he is accurate—Murray wanted me in the bank to cross the cheques, I handed them to him—he crossed them and returned them to me—he went to his hotel and I saw him leave for Stirling—at 1.40 p.m.—I let him go because a telegram came from the bank at Glasgow not to detain him on their account—I kept the cheques.

Cross-examined by MR. WILLIAMS. When he left the bank he told me he was going to the hotel—he went back to the bank to make further inquiries accompanied by me, as I wanted to go back—he asked Mr. Murey in my presence if there was any answer from the head office—the Procurator Fiscal was present, and in his presence Murray said that he was anxious to see the matter cleared up—he would have to go to Stirling en route for Liverpool.

FREDERICK BIRT . I am a money changer of 71, Cornhill—on 15th

November last, the prisoner Murray brought me a 100l. Clydesdale Bank note to change—he was asked to sign his name on the back of it which I should recognise—we remitted it to the Royal Bank of Scotland, in Edinburgh—he wrote on it "Hugh Wells" and his address which I do not remember—I offered him a crossed cheque—he asked to have it made open and I made it open—he was dressed as he is now but he had a beard and moustache.

Cross-examined by MR. WILLIAMS. The notes are not numbered, and I cannot distinguish one from another.

ELIZABETH WHITE . I live at 7, Amos Terrace, Leytonstone, which is next door but one to No. 9.—I have known Murray for twelve months at No. 9—he lived there in the name of Munroe for about twelve months before he was taken in charge—and was living there with his wife and family when he was arrested.

EDMUND BENJAMIN . I am a partner in the firm of A. Coleman and Co., money changers of Cornhill—on 15th November, Murray came and brought two 100l. Clydesdale notes and six 1l. notes which were not Clydesdale—this (produced) is one of them—I wrote on it "H. Wells "and wrote in the book "51, Dante Road, Newington Butts," from a piece of paper which he wrote in my presence—I paid him 205l. I think it was, Bank of England notes which I got from Messrs. Robarts the same morning—I cannot tell what notes they were—but these notes (produced) have our stamp on them—I cannot tell you what cheques they came from.

DANIEL LAY . I am a clerk to Messrs. Robarts, Lubbock and Co.,—on 13th November, I cashed a cheque for 300l. for Messrs. Coleman and gave these two 10l. notes among the money I gave. (The cheque was sent for.)

FREDERICK FOSTER CATES . I am a money changer, of 84, King William Street—on 15th November, a man called at my place to change some Scotch notes—I believe him to be the man at the end of the dock but he had a beard—I told him my terms, 1 1/2 d. in the pound, and he produced two 100l. Clydesdale notes—I asked him how he became possessed of them—and I think he said that he received them at Brighton—I offered him my crossed cheque in exchange, but he said that that would not do as he wanted the money that afternoon and he had no banker and could not get it on a crossed cheque—I cashed four 1l. notes for him and he left to get a reference, taking the two 100l. notes with him, and I did not see him again till he was in custody.

Cross-examined by MR. WILLIAMS. I will not swear to him—I believe he is the man.

JOHN MOSS (Police Sergeant). On 16th November, I was called into Mr. Venable's shop in Cornhill, and found Murray there—these two 100l. Clydesdale notes were in Mr. Venable's hand—Mr. Abraham, the solicitor was there, and asked Murray from whom he received them—he said from a gentleman in Edinburgh—Mr. Abraham asked him the gentleman's name and address but he said that he should give no further information—he gave his name Wells, 51, Dante Road, Newington—he was allowed to leave.

JOHN LINDSAY SAVORY . I live at 19, Ledbury Road, Bayswater—I have known Murray nearly two years—he called at my house on 5th November and said that he had got 10,000l. in Clydesdale 100l. notes and wanted to get them cashed—he said that he owed me something on account of not surrendering to his bail—I had got bail for him for 200l. at the Mansion House and he did not surrender, and owed me 50l.—he said that if I could get the

notes cashed he would pay me the 50l. and give me 100l. besides and 200l. for those who cashed them—he said that he got the notes from a French lady of high rank, and that they would have got some more had they not been in too much of a hurry—he mentioned the name of Walters, but no other name—I knew Walters, he used to be a partner with Spence at the Grapes public-house; he was committed for trial with Murray, but ran away from his bail—Murray said that he had tried to cash some of the notes and had got some cashed at the top of the Haymarket, but had been refused by somebody and had been taken in custody, but that I was perfectly safe in changing them, there was no fear whatever—he said that if he could not succeed in changing them in England they must go to America where they could be paid over the counter as cash—I went with him the same day to a money changer's exactly opposite' Charing Cross Station—I went in and spoke to the money changer and came out and told Murray I could not get it done that day and made an appointment with him for 4 o'clock on Monday, 27th, and in the meantime I went to Scotland Yard—on the Monday I met Murray at St. Martin's Lane exactly opposite the church, he handed me a 100l. note, I gave it back to him and a policeman took him in custody—When he handed me the note he said that Walters and someone else, Frederick Kurr, I think, were at the top of the lane with the remainder of the notes, and if I got that one cashed we could go to the top of the lane and get the remainder.

Cross-examined by MR. WILLIAMS. He said that he received the notes from Walters and another man, but I will not swear who the other man was—I had seen Murray above twice before in my life—I gathered from him that the notes were improperly obtained—the two interviews I had with him were very short, and he suggested this to me, almost a perfect stranger—I had never had such a thing suggested to me before, but I was not intensely surprised—I am not in any business since I lost my sight—I was an accountant up to June last when I gave up my chambers, as I was ill—I was in the same chambers in Marlborough Street as Chidley and Morris, the attornies, and did business for them; I acted as an attorney's clerk—they used one of the rooms and I used the other two—I bought the business of Mr. Chidley; I bought the chambers and furniture; I did not buy Chidley with the chairs and tables, but he had the right to use them, he did not pay rent for them—Morris used them too, he paid a very small sum for them—I was not Chidley and Morris; Morris was another solicitor—I do not call myself a solicitor's clerk—Chidley gave up the chambers to me, but he continued to use them only for a very short time—I let part of them to Morris, he is not there still; they are all cleared out now—Chidley and Morris did not act as my solicitors, they did their own business, but I did not have any of it—I gave them the place for nothing, because I had the use of their clerk when I wanted him—there were two clerks, one was named Dear, I forget the other; they conducted no law business for me, but I will not swear that they did not do some business which I introduced to the firm, but I never had any money for it, it was a job for anybody to get any money out of them—I know Mr. Pulley, another attorney; I have not been clerk to him; I had something to do with conducting a Chancery suit for him with Madame Louise and a man named Britten, but I had very little to do with it and did not have a shilling out of it—I do not know where Chidley is—Morris is to be found at his chambers, where he has been for twenty years uninterruptedly for what I know; I never heard that he retired temporarily—I

do not describe myself as anything—you know perfectly well whether I have been charged with perjury; yes, I was; I was committed for trial, tried by the Recorder, and found not guilty.

Re-examined. The moment I lost sight of Murray I went to Scotland Yard and gave information—it was a little before June, 1875, that a man named Woods, who was at the Mansion House, called upon me to get bail; I did not know his name till the police called on me—I procured him bail and he ought to have surrendered on June 7th, but did not—the only interview I had with him was for two minutes at the Mansion House when he was released—there was a criminal charge against Murray; I was asked to get him bail, I did so and he did not surrender—I did not know him when he came to me, but he reminded me who he was—I knew him as Murray in 1875, but when he called on me in November he said that he had been going by the name of Wells—I was not one of his bail; I was promised 50l. For getting bail, which was not paid—I did not know till I went to the police that a reward had been offered, Inspector Clark first told me of it.

EDMUND BENJAMIN (re-examined). I have now got the cheque—it may have been drawn on the 13th, but I did not receive it till the 15th; I cannot say why; we generally draw one every morning.

GEORGE CLARK . I am an inspector in the detective department, Scotland Yard—on Saturday, 25th November last, the witness Savory came to me at Scotland Yard, and made a statement, in consequence of which I made an arrangement with him to be at St. Martin's Church, Trafalgar Square, on Monday morning, the 27th, about 10 o'clock, Littlechild and Robson went and met Savory at the underground station, Charing Cross—I did not go with them to meet Murray for a reason of my own—Murray was brought to me in custody by Littlechild and Robson, at the Charing Cross Railway Station—I said "Well Murray, you will be charged with being concerned 1 with others in obtaining a large sum of money from a lady in France"—he said "I know nothing about it"—I said "What have you about you"—he handed me this 100l. note of the Clydesdale Bank, and said "I shall be able to explain that when I get to the Magistrate"—In the spring of 1875, I went to Rose Bank, Shanklin, and there saw Benson as Yonge.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT PARRY. I have generally been on duty at Sandown Park races—I am not sure whether I was there last August, I have no doubt 1 was; I missed one meeting, but I am not sure which—I think there are three or four meetings in the year; I have seen William Kurr at two or three meetings there, in Tattersall's ring—I do not remember whether I saw him there in August; I could not mention any particular meeting—I hardly know that I have been at a meeting there without seeing him—I will refer to my notes and ascertain the dates when I was there; I do not know whether one of the days on which I saw him there was the 31st August, my duty books will show.

Cross-examined by MR. WILLIAMS. I know Murray by sight well—I do not see any difference whatever in his appearance to what I have usually seen.

KATE WHITE . I live at 35, Southborough Road, Hackney—I let lodgings—on Friday, 17th November last, Frederick Kurr and Bale came and took lodgings in the name of Collings and Taylor, they said they came from the country, they did not mention any place—they left on the following Thursday, and said they were going into the country; Collings left a letter for a Mr. Sawyer, they said they should return in a few days; they left behind

them this French directory—I gave that and the letter to Sergeant Lambert on 8th December.

Cross-examined by MR. STRAIGHT. I said before the Magistrate, "Bale reminds me of Taylor, but I could not be sure it was he, he has different coloured hair;" his hair is not so light as it was that day—I say that he does remind me of Mr. Taylor; I recognise him better to-day—I think his hair is darker to-day than it was before the Magistrate; it was more sandy then—Taylor's hair was dark, he had whiskers and I think a moustache, but I can't be sure.

Cross-examined by MR. BESLEY. I had no servant at that time—I was not shown this directory at Marlborough Street, it was a thicker book and one that had been more used—I did not say that was the book, it was similar in binding, but more abused, it was a French directory.

Re-examined. I remarked at the time that if it was the book it was altered in appearance.

JAMES HENRY LAMBERT (Detective Sergeant). On 8th December, the last witness gave me a French directory and a letter, I gave them to Inspector Clark—I saw pencil marks in the directory; this is the book—there are some pencil marks, and the word "Finis "against the department of the Marne—at some pages there are asterisks against certain names, and at page 2,802 is the word "finis" (The name of J. de Goncourt was in the list)

Cross-examined by MR. BESLEY. The other French directory is here—I was not at Marlborough Street when it was produced.

WILLIAM HEINDRICH OLLIVIER (Interpreted). I have been inspector of police at Rotterdam—I arrested the prisoners Benson, Bale and Frederick Kurr at Rotterdam, on 2nd December, at 2 o'clock in the afternoon—I did not myself arrest all three; I arrested Benson, he was passing under the name of George Washington Morton, he was in the street, going out from the New Bath Hotel—I said he must go with me to Mr. Cardinal, the chief of the police—he came with me; I searched him, I have a list of what I found on him—I asked where he came from, he said from New York, that he was born in New York and he was going to Egypt—I found on him six French bank-notes of 100 francs each, five notes of the National Bank of Belgium for 100 francs, ten 10l. Bank of England notes, these (produced) are two of them; twenty-five 100l. Clydesdale Bank notes—this 100l. Clydesdale note I received from the landlord—I also found five envelopes addressed to Morton, one received at Brussels and four at Rotterdam, and some cards with the name of Morton—these two little books were found, one on Taylor and one on Collings, in my presence—Benson said he had received the twenty-five notes in these five envelopes; the twenty-five Clydesdale notes I found round his waist, on this naked body, in a flannel band that he was wearing.

Cross-examined by MR. WILLIS. I first found the envelopes and afterwards the notes—Benson was arrested on the Saturday evening; I saw him in prison on the Monday morning, and asked him what had been in the envelopes, and he said the Clydesdale notes—he spoke in English.

JAN ROMUNDI . I am governor of the city prison, at Rotterdam—on 2nd December last, Benson, Bale, and Frederick Kurr, were brought there—they were searched in my presence, and the articles detailed by Ollivier were found on Benson, and a little book on Bale and Kurr—they were in custody at Rotterdam, for about a month—during that time their letters

passed through my hands—Bale wrote to his wife—I saw the letters and had a opportunity of becoming acquainted with his handwriting—this (produced) is one of the letters, I gave it to the officer of justice in Holland—this other letter (produced) I intercepted from Benson; I know the writing—I saw lately some of F. Kurr's handwriting, and it corresponds with this (produced)—I had this letter through another prisoner, not an agent of the police; I never saw F. Kurr write—I had supplied writing paper like this to the other man, he was a Dutchman, but spoke English very well.

JOHN GEORGE LITTLECHILD . I am a detective officer of Scotland Yardon the evening of 31st December, I went with two other officers to watch 29, Marquis Road, Islington—about 7 o'clock p.m., I saw four men leave 29, Marquis Road, I knew but two of them, William Kurr was one, the other was a man named Stenning—they went into the Essex Road, I followed them, about 200 or 300 yards; as I was drawing close they appeared to notice that they were followed; they hastened their speed and two of them turned into Canonbury Street, when I heard one of the men who had hold of Kurr's arm on his lefthand side say "Now run," and Kurr started to run—I commenced to follow, but was stopped by the one who said "Now run," after freeing myself from him I gave chase to Kurr and overtook him—he faced round; I told him that 1 was an officer of police, and was going to arrest him on a charge of defrauding Madame de Goncourt—as he appeared to be about to take some action with roughness—I said "Don't be foolish, come quietly," and he said "I will"—I there upon took him to the station at Islington, where I searched him and found on him 4l. 1s. 1d., some keys, some articles of jewellery, a six chamber revolver, loaded with ball, and a pocket knife—I read the warrant to him, and when I came to the name William Kurr I said "That is your name I suppose"—he said "Yes"—he made no reply to the charge.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT PARRY. I saw him coming out of his house where he resided in the Marquis Road—I knew that he resided there before that evening—I had been watching the house the night previous, and all that day, and for two or three weeks before, during November, I used to see him occasionally, his wife resided there, and one little girl—I can't say that he knew me, I have every reason to believe that he did; I have some recollection of speaking to him, but I am not positive—I did not speak to him when I saw him coming from his house; he saw me last November—I don't know why he should know that his house was watched, he never saw me watching his house that I am aware of; he has seen me in the neighbourhood; Sergeant Manton was on duty with me—we were both watching, Manton had seen him before—Stenning was the man who said "Now run"—he said it all of a sudden, quite loud; I was within about four paces from him, and Manton with me—Kurr ran till I overtook him, the place was very dark, I really could not tell how far he ran, I caught him 1 suppose in about 30 or 40 yards, and he then turned round and faced me—a quantity of jewellery was found upon him, which I have reason to believe is very valuable, it might be worth 200l. or 300l.—he had no jewellery, but what he wore about his dress, it consisted of a diamond ring, some diamond studs, and a sapphire and diamond brooch, he was wearing that in his shirt front—I took no jewellery from his pockets—I don't know that he was in the habit of carrying a revolver long before this—I said to him "How foolish of you to carry such a thing as this"—he said "You don't suppose I was going to be

fool enough to use it do you?"—he did not say he had been in the habit of carrying it to protect his property; Superintendent Williamson afterwards searched his house. I was present—a bank pass-book was found there concealed between the mattrass and the bed, and the pocket of the pass-book contained several diamonds of various sizes; I don't know the value—I can't say whether he dealt in diamonds and jewellery—I believe they are still in Mr. Williamson's possession—I do not remember while I and Manton were watching, his driving past us one wet day, and saying "You will have along wet job;" he never spoke to me.

JOHN ROBINSON MANTON (Detective Officer). I was with Littlechild, on Sunday evening, 31st December, I had been watching there before, but the day before was the first day, I was armed with a warrant—what Littlechild has stated is quite true, one of Kurr's companions said "Holloa Manton," knowing me perfectly well.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT PARRY. Littlechild and I were watching for some time; Roots, another officer, was with us, but I don't think he knew anything about the case—Tew was not watching with us—I should not doubt Kurr's seeing me, Littlechild, and Tew on a Saturday afternoon—he never drove past and spoke to us, that I state positively.

FREDERICK WILLIAMSON . I am superintendent of the detective force, Scotland Yard—I searched William Kurr's house on 31st December, 1876, and found this bank-book between the bed and mattrass in a bedroom on the first floor—the pocket of it contained a piece of tissue paper containing twenty-one loose diamonds and three rubies; as far as I could estimate the value of them I should say it was between 200l. and 300l.—I also found these two cards in the pocket-book; one is a card of Mr. Edward F. Frog-gatt, solicitor, and has this writing on it in pencil addressed to Mr. Costigan, who is an usher of the Marlborough Street police-court "Dear Sir,—If you have any news as to warrant against any other party, tell my clerk, Mr. Lewis"—the other is "Lewis, instruct George Ames for me, as you will be told by bearer"—I went to Rotterdam, and found Benson, Bale, and Frederick Kurr in custody—on 27th March last I went to Paris, and there saw a Mr. Brioude, a partner of Benson's father, who is a commission agent, I believe—I received from Mr. Brioude these three documents (produced) and thirty-five 100l. Clydesdale notes, which I have in my possession—I have brought one here as a sample, the others are in my iron safe (One of the documents was an authority from Benson to deliver up the 2,300l. taken from him at Rotterdam; another was an order on the Clydesdale Bank for the 3,000l. lodged there by Benson; and the other was an order on the Alloa Bank for the 500l. lodged there by William Kurr, and signed "William Giford," making, with the thirty-five 100l. notes, 9,600l.

Cross-examined by MR. SARJEANT PARRY. The two cards were not mentioned by me at the police-court—I am quite sure they were found in the pocket-book with the diamonds, in the same pocket—I know that Mr. Froggatt is a solicitor, and these purport to be two of his cards—they were found at the time I found the pocket-book.

Cross-examined by MR. WILLIAMS. I have had charge of this case throughout Murray was arrested in November—during the whole of that time the matter has been in the hands of Mr. Abrahams, conducting the prosecution for the Treasury.

THOMAS TEW (Detective-Sergeant M). I have known William Kurr eight or nine years by the name of William Kurr—he has lived at 29, Marquis Road about

two and a half years—I did not know him in any profession—I have known Frederick Kurr between four and five years, but not by any other name—he is the brother of William—I have known Bale seven or eight years I should think—they called him "Jerry, the greengrocer" because he used to keep a large greengrocer's shop, with horses and carts and three or four men—I have also seen him as a book-maker on race-courses—I have known Murray on race-courses, and believe him to be a betting man.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT PARRY. I was watching at Kurr's house in Marquis Road, with Littlechild and Martin—I was at the end of Ashby Road one night, when William Kurr said "Goodnight, gentlemen"—he was on foot then—I also remember him driving by in the daytime and speaking to me—I passed him hundreds of times after that while I was watching at different places, but not while I was watching the house—I have seen Kurr morning, noon, and night—he spoke to me three years ago about a revolver which he carried—there have been robberies in the neighbourhood of Marquis Road, and there was one previous to his going there—he said that he had something to protect himself—that was when his brother-in-law kept a public-house, from where he used to go home—I should think he knew that we were watching him; he could not be off it—he had known me for years.

Re-examined. When I say that he could not be off knowing it, I mean that for above three weeks he was being watched by detective officers, myself and others—we do not as a rule watch in such a way as to let persons know that they are watched—if the person knows, it is no use watching—he was followed by us and he must have known that we were police officers—a man followed about for three weeks must know it, especially if they are police officers—I mean that he would draw that inference.

NATHANIEL DRUSCOVITCH . I am chief inspector at Scotland Yard—on September 26th, about 12 o'clock, I went to see Mr. Abrahams, the solicitor, at his office—in consequence of instructions from Williamson, I had received instructions on the night of the 25th, I went on the afternoon of the 29th, at 3.30, to Marlborough Street and made arrangements, and on the 28th, about 11 a.m., I received warrants for the apprehension of Montgomery, Gregory, Ellerton, Jackson, and Francis—I went to four addresses to execute the warrants, and to one I sent a Serjeant—I went to Duke Street, St. James's Place and Jermyn Street, but could not find any of them—I did not go to 8, Northumberland Street—I found that at two addresses they had left orders for letters to be forwarded to Newmarket—I went to the addresses which appear in the correspondence—I went to Glasgow on the night of October 4th and on November 10th, to Edinburgh, and on the same day to Bridge of Allan—I got there about 2.30—the journey from Edinburgh to Bridge of Allan takes over two hours—I went to the Queen's Hotel there, and to four or five others—on the morning of the 5th December I went to Rotterdam and saw Benson there—on 12th January three of the prisoners were delivered over to me by the Dutch authorities under these extradition warrants (produced)—I commenced reading the warrant to Benson, and he asked me if I would allow him to read it himself—I left him in charge of a constable and afterwards went back and asked him if he had read the warrants—he said that he had, and asked me if those were the charges he was to be tried upon as he understood that the fourth warrant, which way for Iarceny, had not been

entertained by the Dutch authorities, and he was right—the Dutch authorities had refused to act upon that charge—I said that I was under that impression—he said "I cannot understand what the perjury means, but at all events I shall see my solicitor"—I took him as George Washington Morton—we came from Rotterdam to Harwich—Frederick Kurr gave the name of Charles James Collings; and Bale as William Bale, of 169, Liverpool Road, that is where he lived with his family.

Cross-examined by MR. BESLEY. I have some papers signed by the Rotterdam authorities for the surrender of the fugitives, but they merely contain the English charges under which they were surrendered—I do not speak Dutch—the warrants were translated to me—it is not usual to give any such documents as this warrant of surrender, but I asked for it in case anything should he said about the property—that is why I have not shown it before—I was not present on the last day when the men were committed by the Dutch authorities—I have no copy of the warrant of committal under which they were taken to prison to await fifteen days.

----LIDDELL. I have my book here, the entries in which are on 3rd October three 100l. notes numbered 58372, 58373, and 58374; four 100l. notes numbered 58344, 58345, 58346, and 58347; and forty-eight 100l. notes numbered from 64721 to 64729—two are dated 28/1/76; that makes fifty-six notes.

JAMES COOK . I am one of the rate collectors of St. Martin's-in-the-Fields—I have here a valuation list of the parish, which includes the whole of Charing Cross—there is no such place in the rate-book as Agar Chambers, and I know no such place—there is no Royal Bank of London—there is a large house at the corner of Agar Street which was formerly occupied by the British Bank, it is not the oyal British Bank now, it has been a fire-office for some years.

BRINDLEY RIGGE . I am clerk to Debenham and Storr, the auctioneers—I have known Frederick Kurr for some years, he was a fellow-clerk of mine there—this book (produced) is in his writing—he was there from September, 1868, to December, 1874—all these entries are made by him from May, 1869, to April, 1873.

Cross-examined by MR. BESLEY. He was a mere boy when he came—when he left he had 60l. or 70l. a year—one of his duties was the checking of the sales—the clerks are well employed from 9.30 to 6 o'clock—he left of his own accord.

JOHN WILLIAM WATERSTON . I am a stationer and lithographer in Edinburgh and know William Kurr by the name of Rawlings—in June, 1872, I received this order (produced) from him—this is a copy of something which was lithographed for him, it came from his office and I delivered them at his office—I saw him on the subject from time to time, and at the end of May or the beginning of June I received this other order from him and he introduced me to some business for Chaplin and Co.—this is a draft of what he wished printed, a note head—Chaplin gave the order, I do not see him here to-day—Kurr also introduced a person named Danby as Hannay and Co.; I recognised his carte de visite, he is not here.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT PARRY. I am junior partner in the firm, but I was assistant at the time—I do not represent this document (86) to be in William Kurr's writing—this (65) "York Place, Edinburgh. Please let us have another 10,000 vouchers in blue," &c, is William Kurr's writing; I did not sec him write it, but it came from his office—I did not receive

number 84 or number 85 from him personally—I do not know by whom this "3rd May, 1872. 400 to 20. Paganinni to win 6l. cup "is written—I received it from William Kurr, but he did not hand it to me personally—I can scarcely remember how it came into our place of business—I had no interest in Paganinni—here is another lithographic writing from our firm; I do not pretend to say that I received it from William Kurr because it is lithographed, but we were asked to give them all up.

Re-examined. This is the order we executed—I saw William Kurr on the subject of it more than once and I went to him in pursuance of the orderwe keep specimens of what we send to customers and this is one—William Kurr paid us for them; I knew him as Rawlings and have so addressed him—we understood that he was a principal, not a clerk.

FREDERICK WILLIAMS . I am now a clerk in the London and County Bank, Westminster branch—I was formerly at the Islington branch, where William Kurr kept an account in the name of William Harrison—he opened it on 27th May, 1873, and kept it till about June, 1875—I constantly saw his cheques—this is the signature-book—this cheque for 4,400l. is in his writing—the whole of this letter (produced) is also in his writing.

Cross-examined by MR. SERGEANT PARRY. I believe the cheque to be in his writing—I had no idea that he was a racing man—a good many racing men have accounts at our bank—I am not aware that this account was opened in a racing name, or that we have any accounts in racing names.

JAMES GOAD . I am a house agent and corresponded with William Kurr upon the subject of Marquis Villa where he lived—I received these letters (produced) from him.

CHARLES WARMAN . In 1876, I purchased a greengrocer's business from a person named Bale—I think the prisoner Bale is the person, but I never saw him since I took possession—I paid 42l. 2s. 9d. for the business and this receipt (produced) was given by him to Mr. Dennis a friend of mine; who paid the money for me and kept it for me—I only saw Bale once.

Cross-examined by MR. BESLEY. On the day I took possession I saw the person twice who I supposed to be the previous proprietor—Mr. Dennis paid the money for me but I cannot say who handed him the receipt—I saw Bale write his name to this paper and I had an impression that I received it from Mr. Dennis—I never saw Bale until he was requested to stand up in the dock—It is hard to swear to a man you have only seen once or twice and not for twelve months, and I feel a little difficulty about swearing to him.

JOSIAH JAMES . I am manager of the London and County Bank, Hackney—I know Benson in the name of Yonge, he had an account there and this (produced) is part of a correspondence I had with him—I have not the signature-book here but this is a letter he wrote in November, 1874, where he gives me a specimen of his signature—he kept an operating account at my bank for seven months from August, 1874, to 1875—this article in the Sport is written by him unquestionably, that is to say the corrections are in his writing—I also believe these letters to the prosecutrix (E to V inelusive) are Benson's writing—I cannot speak to U—F 1, is his writing—G 1, is not his usual writing, it is evidently disguised, and I am not able to say without looking at it closely—T 1 is his, and so are these French telegrams—in the latter part of L 1 he changes the character, but I believe it to be his though feigned—since the adjournment I have looked at U, M 1, G 1; and Z 1, and I have a very strong opinion U is Benson's writing in a feigned hand;

and the same remark applies to M 1, and G 1—these two letters (15 and 16) are in Benson's writing disguised. (Mr. Woodward here pointed out the thirteen original telegrams sent from Linlitkgow and Bridge of Allan.) Eleven of these telegrams are in Benson's writing, and the other two are very like his writing but disguised—these letters (found on. Benson in Newgate), 96, 98, 99, and 101, are Benson's writing—I cannot be certain about 97 and 102—I believe 100 is his—78 and 97 are his writing.

Cross-examined by MR. WILLIS. I have been manager three years—I have produced eight letters this morning in. Benson's writing on ordinary business topics—I was first asked about the writing of these documents five or ten days before I was at Marlborough Street—I knew that the person I knew as Yonge was one of the persons charged—I did not know that papers had been found on him—I first saw these two letters in French (A and B) at Mr. Abraham's office—they are unquestionably Benson's writing—I represent that they are in the same writing as the other letters which I produced; but the signatures I cannot speak to—I should recognise them anywhere if they had been brought to me and should have' said "That is the writing of George Henry Yonge"—I have never been called upon to give evidence of this kind before—the two French letters are larger than he usually writes; but it is the same writing—he writes a great many words in one line—I have no moral doubt about them, but I am not so confident about them as about the others; they are not written as Benson wrote to me but they are his I believe—I should not like to say that either of these envelopes is in Benson's writing—I do not see a resemblance—I think two of these thirteen telegrams are not Benson's writing.

SIDNEY SMITH . I am governor of Newgate—on Wednesday, 21st March, I discovered certain writings in the cell of the prisoner Benson; in conesquence of which I called upon him to be searched, and discovered on him these letters and other documents marked from 95—to 102; also these fourteen letters—I sent for him out of the yard and was outside his cell when they were taken from him—translations are attached to each, made by one of the French masters of Christ's Hospital.

MR. WOODWARD (re-examined). I also produce the thirteen original telegrams from Hawkins in London, to Brydone in Scotland—here are four other telegrams from Ellerton and Montgomery, to Madame de Goncourt.

JEAN DENPECK I am French master at Christ's Hospital—I translated these letters for the governor of Newgate—the translations are perfectly correct.

GEORGE CLARK (re-examined by MR. SERJEANT PARKY). I have now referred to my office diary and what we call the case-book—Iwas on duty, on 31st August, at Sand own Races and saw William Kurr there—I cannot tell at what part of the day but he came to me to complain that somebody he objected to had gone into Tattersall's ring as he was not a member—he said that there were plenty of men there not members; and he said "Why should I not be able to come in?"—I was not able to assist him; it is private; you pay gate money to go in, and there are persons there who know the members of Tattersall's—I saw him there that day and the next—the ordinary book-makers are in the big ring, and the members of Tattersall's in the small ring—the races last from 1 o'clock to 5 o'clock—I think the last race is about 5.30.

Re-examined. There have been four or five Sandown races in the year, and I have been to all, except one—this book shows how each man was

engaged—it is in the writing of a clerk in the office, and here is another book showing it—there is nothing in it showing that I met William Kurr on that day—it only fixes my attention to the date of the races—I also saw him the next day—my attention was first called to that yesterday in the witness box—the races begin at 1 o'clock—Sandown Park is 16 or 17 miles from London, you go down by train to Esher and walk across—it is a question of an hour and a half—I do not recollect a horse named Coroner winning the Warren handicap, nor do I remember William Kurr speaking to me about such a horse; but I remember speaking to him.

CHARLES CHABOT . I have me the study of handwriting my profession for many years—numerous documents have been submitted to me as containing Benson's admitted writing, to form my option as to the other documents; they are, this letter (74) in pencil, headed "Friday," found on him at Rotterdam; this letter from Bath Street, Glasgow, signed "F. Coster. 13th October, 1876," and sundry cheques and paying-in slips—I do not know that I have seen 91 and 92 before, but I am quite sure they are in Benson's writing—I am able to give an opinion of his writing—documents A, E, F, H, K, Q, and Y, are in his writing—these four telegrams numbered 93, which James speaks to, are undoubtedly in Benson's writing—this letter (E) to Madame de Goncourt, signed "A. Montgomery," is in Benson's writing, undoubtedly—these lithographic copies F, H, and K, are, in my belief, Benson's writing; also this letter of September 11, 1876—I cannot speak to U, it is a memorandum, from Thomas Ellerton to Monsieur de Goncourt—V is in Benson's writing and so is F 1, which is signed Montgomery, and dated 18th September, 1876—T 1, dated 22nd September, 1876, is also Benson's, and so are L 1, 0 1, X 1, and Q 1—here are thirteen Scotch telegrams; the first, second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, and seventh are in Benson's writing—I do not speak to the eighth or ninth; the tenth, eleventh, twelfth, and thirteenth, are Benson's. (These telegram were from Yonge to Harrisson, Gifford, Wilson, Richardson, and Miller, and from Clarkson to Jackson and Gifford.) This cheque and this authority and all these alterations in this proof sheet of "The Sport," are Benson's writing—I have spent a great deal of time comparing letters 15 and 16, but cannot speak to them—certain documents have been submitted to me as being in William Kerr's writing; this (produced) is a list of them—they are a paying-in slip of the Clydesdale Bank for 500l. of William Gifford (51); a cheque on the Clydesdale Bank, of 13th November (60); an order of J. Rawlings and Co.; a letter of J. Rawlings and Co., of 7th May, 1875; a cheque of W. Harrisson (87) for 4,400l. on the London and County Bank, 9/6/75; and a letter headed Monday and signed William Harrisson (88); and three letters to Mr. Goad (89)—these were all given to me as William Kurr's writing, and from them I have formed an opinion of his writing—then, as to Bale, here is an account of Francis, by Reinhardt (27); forty-four paying-in slips of J. Elliott, at the Union Bank of Scotland; a cheque for 2l. by J. Elliot, on the Union Bank of Scotland; a paying-in slip of R. Gregory (48); a cheque of R. Gregory, for 168l. 10s. (49); a letter to Mrs. Bale, signed Charles Bale; a monthly time-table (71), and a statement of accounts and receipts of Charles E. Bale (90); from which documents I have formed an opinion as to Bale's writing—then, as to Frederick Kurr: here is a cheque of Jacob Francis, for 95l., on the London and County Bank, of 22nd September (28); and another for 90l. (29); a letter from Jacob Francis, of 23rd September (30); a paying-in slip of the London ana

County Bank for 100l., on September 7th (50); a paying-in slip of 232l., by Reynolds, on the Clydesdale Bank; a memorandum book (72); a letter to Scroggy, dated Rotterdam (75).; and a day-book endorsed F. Kurr (85)—those documents have given me an opinion of Frederick Kurr's writing—I will now take the list of exhibits—I do not recognise this letter from Montgomery, dated August 20th, 1876, but this letter from Montgomery, of 29th August, marked E, is undoubtedly in Benson's writing, and so is F, dated "September," and H, dated 4th September, and K, dated September 7th—the endorsment "Jacob Francis" on these two drafts on the Credit Lypnnais for 20,000 and 30,000 francs is Frederick Kurr's—letter O, from Jacob Francis, dated 11th September, is also his—this memorandum from Jackson, of 11th September, 1876 (P) is, to the best of my belief, William Kurr's writing in a disguised—hand, but I cannot speak with absolute certainty—the endorsemen "Jacob Francis "to this draft on the Credit Lyonnais for 50,000 francs, I believe to be Frederick Kurr's—I don't give any opinion upon this memorandum from Ellerton of 15th September, 1876 (U); it is an upright hand, a disguised hand—this letter from Montgomery, dated 16th September (Y), is Benson's—this letter of Jacob Francis, 15th September, 1876. (11), is Frederick Kurr's—the endorsement, "T. Ellerton," on this draft for 25,000 francs on the Credit Lyonnais is Bale's, and the other endorsement, Jacob Francis, is Frederick Kurr's—the endorsement, Thomas Ellerton, on the draft of Madame de Goncourt's (A.1) is Frederick Kurr's—the endorsement, "Jacob Francis," to this draft for 3,000 francs on the Society de Depot et Grand Couronne (A 3), is in Frederick Kurr's writing—this letter (F 1) from Montgomery to Madame de Goncourt is in Benson's writing—I do not speak to these letters from Ellerton of 19th and 20th September (G 1 and M 1), they are in a disguised hand—this letter and envelope from Francis of 19th September (H 1) is Frederick Kurr's, so is this memorandum from Francis, of 22nd September (R 1)—the memorandum from Jackson to Madame de Goncourt, of 22nd September (S 1) is, to the best of my belief, William Kurr's—this letter of 22nd September, from Montgomery (T 1), is undoubtedly Benson's writing, and the envelope also—this Royal Bank of London cheque for 10,000l., payable to Charles Jackson, or order; (the subject of the indictment), is Bale's writing, and the signature also; and so is this other cheque for 10,000l., of the same date, payable to Jacob Francis—the letter from Ellerton, of 23rd September (A 1), is in the same writing as the others which are in a disguised hand—this envelope marked B 3, number 2 is Benson's writing—this telegram from Ellerton to Monsieur de Goncourt "Francis has remitted to your account 2,000l. sterling," &c. (T), is in Bale's writing, except some words written in French; I believe he does not understand French—these telegrams V 1 and X, from Montgomery to Goncourt, are Frederick Kurr's writing to the best of my belief—W 1, a telegram from Ellerton to Goncourt, containing the words "St. James's" at the bottom, is Benson's writing in a made up hand—the first letter of S. Hawkins to Brydone, from 324, Essex Road, is I am sure in Frederick Kurr's writing—, number 6, Brooks and Co. to Brydone, is to the best of ray belief Bale's. writing—all the writing in this proof sheet of the "Racing News "(8) is Benson's—this letter from S. Benson to Bridone is to the best of my belief William Kurr's, but I cannot give a positive opinion, as he varies his hand very much in his admitted letters; it is difficult to identify one with another, and therefore I cannot give an absolute opinion—number 10, from S. Brooks

and Co., is precisely the same, by whomsoever written—this paper containing the words in pencil "Henry Cuthbert, 4, Oxford Street, Edinburgh" (12), is Frederick Kurr's—the signature "Arthur Chapman, for Brooks and Co." to this agreement with Flintoff, is Frederick Kurr's I believe—I cannot identify letters 15 and 16 as Benson's, but they possess several points of similarity to his writing; they are not disguised, and there is a strong family likeness between them and Benson's writing—I find in my experience a similarly of writing in families, and after the time I have expended in examining the letters to identify them if possible with Benson's writing, I have strained my energies to do it and cannot do it; I cannot say that they are his—this letter from Jacob Francis "Please give bearer an open cheque," &c. is Frederick Kurr's writing, and so are these letters of "11th and 15th September, 1876, and this cheque for 95l. on the London and County Bank, signed Jacob Francis (28 and 29), and this letter of Jacob Francis of 23rd September—number 44 is a paying-in slip of the Bank of Scotland, which is in Bale's writing—this paying-in slip of 100l. on 7th September, to the London and County Bank, is Frederick Kurr's writing, and so is the endorsement "W. Reynolds" to these two cheques of September 4th (52 and 53), and this cheque of Yonge's on the Clydesdale Bank for 300l. (59)—this cheque of 14th November on the Clydesdale Bank, which the clerk would not cash, is in William Kurr's writing—these two envelopes (66 and 67) addressed to Morton at Rotterdam are both in the same hand, somewhat disguised; I think they are William Kurr's writing, and the same observation applies to number 70—number 80 is a cheque of the Clydesdale Bank, W. Gifford to W. Kurr, that is William Kurr's writing—those orders written by Chaplin (84, 85, and 86) are I believe William Kurr's, and 89 too, but I have to look at some of them a considerable time before being certain—they are the same as 88, but on the face of them there is an apparent difference, no one could recognise them, except as experienced a person as myself—I can trace similarity between certain formations of the letters—letters 91 and 92 are Benson's—I have this morning examined one of the letters found on Benson in Newgate, and it is Benson's writing—I do not speak to three of these five telegrams from Hawkins to Brydone; two of them are in French and are F. Kurr's—number" 105 is a telegram from Gifford to Wilson; I believe that to be William Kurr's writing.

Cross-examined by MR. WILLIS. Nearly all my evidence is embodied in my report—I have not seen the documents since March 2nd, I had them in my hands two or three days at three different times—I did not strain my mind to come to the conclusion that some of them were Benson's, I said that I could not do it in fairness; I do my utmost to come to a correct conclusion—I daresay I was half a day sometimes in coming to a conclusion upon it and then found that I was not examined upon some of these documents—I was told before I got them that some were said to be Benson's, not all—I accidentally heard Mr. James give evidence on one document only, but I had formed my opinion before and I was rather annoyed at Mr. Abrahams giving it to me to determine, when it had been determined by somebody else, I had expended a great deal of trouble upon it; that was the corrections to the proof sheet of the "Racing News"—one or two of the papers I had net seen till I was in the witness-box—some of Benson's writing is very studiously disguised—the first of these yellow telegrams is slightly disguised; the last is also disguised, but less than these other two; there are various grades of disguise—you will see the word

"mille" in which it is Benson's habit to omit the middle up stroke in his admitted letters, and sometimes in the single and doable "1" you will find there is a break between the "1" and the "e;" the same thing happens in the words "sterling" and "payable," and in the words "la "and "felicite"," and on these documents it appears to be same—it is difficult to write on English telegraph paper, but this yellow paper is rather stiffen.

Grots-examined by MR. SERGEANT PARRY. I have given my opinion in a great many instances in Courts of Justice—I do not believe that I am infallible—I daresay I have found out that I have made mistakes on two or three occasions—you want to know whether I sometimes alter my mind—I am sometimes wrong if I am asked to come to a hasty conclusion or before I have studied the whole matter; I afterwards come to a different conclusion and it is generally the right one—there was the case of Miss Faithful when the jury and the Judge both thought that I was wrong—I was engaged in one most important case where the jury on the first trial gave a verdict contrary to my opinion and two other juries afterwards approved my opinion; you ask me whether I was not wrong because a jury said so, but six judges gave an opinion one way in the Franconia matter and seven the other; that was a matter of law, but mine is a matter of opinion—I believe I have in one or two instances after forming a particular opinion found afterwards that I was in error; not that it has been proved, but I have weighed it in my mind and I have said "Well, I think I must be wrong"—I am quite certain that the two letters from Northumberland Street! and the letter signed William Harrison, in 1874, were written by William Kurr—it is necessary for me to have a genuine known writing to form an opinion from and that is the reason I have found myself wrong-sometimes in the witness-box, because the standard of comparison is misleading—from the examinations I have made I have conscientiously formed the impressions I have told you—in some instances the opinions of banker's clerks and persons who know the writing would be better than mine, but in very many instances I should not surrender my judgment to anybody.

Cross-examined by MR. STRAIGHT. I have not heard Mr. Cherry examined—this paying-in slip signed Ellerton is in Bale's writing; I do not see any palpable disguise—this signature "Roberts, for J. Francis." on this receipt I have been told is Bale's, it appears to be written in an undisguised hand, there is a little variation.

Cross-examined by MR. BESLEY. These are instances where several papers are put before me, and I have to state my opinion, not being told whether I am for the defence or the prosecution, and I form my judgment quite independently—certain documents were placed in my hands as being in F. Kurr's writing, there were signatures, there was an entire letter number 75, and the little pocket-book number 83—my opinion has been formed under the belief that those were Collings' writing—I did not suggest that the book should be obtained, it came quite unawares—it was shown to me at the police-court; I did not have it in the first instance—I used it to confirm my opinion, but I did not make much use of it as I was quite satisfied with What I had got, and it has nothing to do with my evidence to-day; I have relied upon the letter and the memorandum-book and other documents mentioned here—I quite relied upon letter 75, being Collings' writing, and I believed that it had been proved to be so when I stepped into the box yesterday; it was intimated that the letter would not be proved, and I said "Then I

shall have some difficulty in proving Collings' writing"—I firmly believe that it is Colling's writing—that very document was partly the foundation of my belief, but there are cheques proved to be in his writing as well, and there is the little pocket-book, no use has been made of it, but I do not exclude it, I have compared the writing in it with the letters, and they appear to be the same; I put it aside finding I had got quite sufficient without it—the capital H in the book you will find is the same as the "H" in H. Cuthbert, in number 12—the "H "in Harris, at the bottom of this page is not Collins' writing—my attention has not been called to it before I should exclude it at once—I noticed it when I had the book—this is all F. Kerr's writing down to the words "One bottle short allowed"—bankers become very familiar with signatures by large practice; I do not think they are much more qualified to speak to signatures than myself, for this reason, that I often know them to be wrong, and they do not go by the signature book, and they very often pay forged cheques.

Re-examined. I have been engaged in the study of handwriting between twenty and twenty-five years, and have been very often-examined in courts of justice, besides which many cases come before me which never come into Court; I do not think I come into Court once in nine times—I tell the parties whether they are right or wrong, and I am as often against them as for them—apart from the desire which I make to be right, every mistake I make is an injury to my reputation.

By THE COURT. Although most people write differently, there are still some characters which are uniform and there is something in the writing which you cannot get rid of and which comes out in various degrees if a person writes with his right hand, even if in trying to disguise his writing he actually prints it; I had an instance where in fifty letters I could not identify one, but there was a peculiarity in under scoring by which I identified the writing—I sift documents through mentally to find what minute points are likely to escape the writer's attention—in writing at a certain pace it is impossible to avoid doing certain things—some persons dot their "is" before and some behind, some make an up stroke and some a down stroke, some cross a "t" from the line, or across it, or upwards or downwards.

MR. WILLIS, in submitting that there was no evidence of Benson's having committed the offence of forgery, urged:—1st. That preparing a cheque and putting upon it the name of a non-existing bank did not of itself constitute a forgery, assuming that the name of Simpson as the drawer was a real name and that it was put without his authority. 2nd. That there was no evidence that Bale had not gone by the name of Simpson previous to the drawing of the cheque, and that, therefore, the name was not assumed for the special purpose of the fraud, 3rd. That there was no evidence of an intention to obtain money upon the cheque itself, as it was merely used as an inducement to Madame de Goncourt to become an intermediary; and, 4th. That there was no uttering within the jurisdiction of this Court; the cheque was sent from this country through the Post-office, and there could be no uttering until it reached the hands of the person (in France) for whom it was intended. MR. SERGEANT PARRY also submitted that the cheque was not intended to be used as a forged instrument or for the purpose of getting money or credit thereby; that Madame de Goncourt parted with her money, not on the faith of the cheque, but under the belief that the statements in the newspaper with respect to Montgomery were true. MR. STRAIGHT contended that the document was an incomplete one; it

was made payable to the order of Jackson and could have no operation until it was endorsed by him, so that no one could be prejudiced by it. MR. BESLEY said the indictment described the instrument as "An order for the payment of money" and to make out the offence of forgery the intent must be to use it as such; the evidence here clearly showed that there was no such intention, and, therefore, this Court had no jurisdiction to try the prisoners for what was not the offence of forgery contemplated by the statute, which was intended to limit cases of forgery to orders for the payment of money. MR. WILLIAMS called attention to the evidence affecting Murray, which he submitted was not sufficient to constitute him an accessory after the fact. THE SOLICITOR-GENERAL, in replying to the objections, contended that as to the reality of the name of the person drawing the cheque, or the existence or non-existence of the bank, these were questions of fact for the Jury. As to the forgery, the real question was what was the character of the instrument itself, not the purpose for which it was used. The intent contemplated by the law was to make a false instrument pass as true. The question as to the uttering was raised on the Extradition Treaty.

MR. BARON HUDDLESTON entertained no doubt whatever that the instrument in question purported to be an order for the payment of money; the old definition of forgery was "The false making of a written instrument for the purpose of fraud and deceit," and the offence was complete as soon as the document was made, whether anything was obtained upon it or not. With regard to like uttering, there was some difficulty; it was obvious here that the uttering was not intended to be in this country, and if upon consideration it became necessary he would reserve that question, but the argument might be met in this way, that as the intent was to have the instrument returned to this country, that might constitute an uttering here. As to the Extradition Treaty, he should feel justified in acting upon the bill found by the Grand Jury, and leave the question of uttering to the Jury. The case as affecting Murray was entirely one of fact for the Jury. Authorities referred to: "Cox v. Hevey," 2, East's Pleas of the Crown, p. 856; "Rex. v. Bontemps;" Kussell and Ryan p. 260;" Reg. v. Rogers," 8, Carrington and Payne, p. 629.; "Reg v. Ion," 21, Law Journal, Magistrates' Cases; "Newcomb V. De Rous," 29, Law Journal, Queen's Bench Division, p. 4; "Reg. v. Collicot," Russell and Ryan, p. 212; "Reg. v. Shukard," Russell and Ryan, p. 200; and "Reg. v. Burdett, p. 4 Barnewall and Aldereon 110.

GEORGE FLINTOFF (re-examined). It was on the 30th that Chapman called—and on the 31st the agreement was signed—William Kurr was with them—it was signed between 9 o'clock and 10 o'clock in the morning, and. I took it to Somerset House to get it stamped before 12 o'clock—they generally came about 9.30. in the morning, sometimes a little earlier, sometimes a little later—they generally left about 4.30—the 31st August was the first day they were there and I don't believe they stayed quite so long; I think they left about 4 o'clock, I mean Benson, William Kurr, Chapman, and Bale; it is not likely that we should observe very accurately the first day what their usages were, I have given them as nearly as I can—this document (produced) was not used by me—I have seen it before—the name of William Wright was never adopted by me—I cannot speak with great accuracy as to how long they stayed on any particular day—on the 31st I know I went to Somerset House to stamp the agreement almost immediately after it was signed—I was not away quite an hour—I saw them all four there on that day—I saw them in and out at various times during the day—I can't say the exact hours, being the first day of their occupation—the leaving at 4 o'clock I apply to the first day.

M. OLLIVIER (re-examined). I cannot tell the offence with which the prisoners were first charged at Rotterdam—I only heard that they were charged with forgery—the first offence was not conspiracy to defraud—I heard nothing of that.

The documents were here read: There were five telegrams from Hawkins to Brydone, in August, 1876, respecting proofs of "the Racing News" and ordering 500 copies, also two letters from Hawkins to Brydone ordering 1,000 Royal British Bank cheques on pretty pink paper, a letter from Jacob Francis to Reinhardt requesting him to cash 855l. in notes enclosed; a book found on Bale containing the following entries: "9th October, Hotel Carlisle," "two boxes at Edinburgh" "Harrison;" "Harison; "Left "September 26th, owing me 2l." and for the next seven weeks 2l. was entered each week. Frederick Kurr's memorandum book contained the following entries: "Thirty Van;" "Mrs. Flatoff;" "Jerry 3l. 10s.;" "Hotel Carlisle;" "Fare to B of A; "" Paid Saturday, October 1st, 6th, 22nd, 23rd, and November 10th and 17th, 2l.;" "Fares to Burnt Island, Berwick New, Saint Albans, and London;" "I. 0. Jerry for cards 1s. 8d.," "Paid Jerry for lent;" "Journey to Wigan, Carlisle, and Stockwell" Letter 73 was from Bale to Mrs. Bale, from Rotterdam, enquiring after his children, and stating: "No doubt you have heard the three of us were apprehended here last Saturday morning, I do not expect to leave here for a month or more, on account of the extradition treaty. Letter 74 was in pencil said to be Benson's, dated: "Friday. The bearer has been confined with your husband and myself in the prison in Rotterdam, will you please send this on to Mrs. Alice, and ask her to let it reach Dr. Fuffer or Mr. Twentyman immediately; when Dr. F. has read that note he had better make arrangements for some one to meet the bearer, &c. Dr. Fuffer will know this handwriting." Letter 74 sent from Rotterdam, was to Scrogger, requesting him to send a few pounds on Fuffer's account by Post Office Order, as for 7l., they could live for a month on the debtor's side of the prison, where they would have meat, &c, signed F K. The Scotch telegrams were one from Yonge, Bridge of Allan, January 10th, 1876, to A. Miller, Post Office, Burnt Island: "Do not write or communicate to me here any more, await further instructions." Another was from Yonge to Wilson, 42, Macfarlane Street, Glasgow: "Please meet me tonight at Caledonian Station. Arrive at 10.30." There were other telegrams from Yonge to Richardson; Jackson to Harisson; Yonge to Harrison; Yonge to Gifford; and Yonge to Wilson; Clarkson to Jackson; and Giffard to Wilson, making appointments and giving notice of each others movements. The letters found on Benson contained so many slang expressions and initals of names as to make them unintelligible; mentioning "Fathead;' "Flicks," "Ebony," and" G.B." The letter to Mrs. Colkett (96), requested her to call on Mr. George Lewis, junior, the solicitor, not the old man, and say that he had succeeded in persuading Forbes, (supposed to be Madame de Goncourt), not to come to London, and proposing that they should find 6,000l. and Poole, senior, 200l. for the purpose of "squarching Forbes" signed. "Yours very sincerely and gratefully, Poole." Number 97 also found on Benson, purported to be to Bale's father, it was marked" strictly private and con." stating that the writer's son was charged with defrauding a French lady of 10,000l., and that he, Benson, had been induced to subscribe 2,000l. as the lady could be induced to accept the amount she had lost, minus 2,000l., and requesting him to assist in raising it. Number 98 was dated, London, 20th March, 1877, from S. Benson to his father, stating that he, had arrived at the depths of

despair, and that unless he would advance 2,000l. to assist in repaying the French lady he intended to commit suicide to save his family from the disgrace of a cause celebre; that his companion's punishment would be much less severe than his, and that he prayed for succour morning, noon, and night. Letter 97 was in French from Benson to Mr. Oliver, requesting him to convey the packet of Utters to his father. No. 100 contained Benson's instructions to his solicitor it which MR. WILLIS objected as being a privileged communication, and the objection was allowed by THE COURT. No. 102, also found on Benson, was a list of names, Smith, Jones, Mapp, Rumble, Jacobs, Dyke, McIntosh, Fenn, Wood, Finch, Mill, Thorn, War, Snel, Farr, Broadb, Kerridge, Whip, Hobbs.

SIDNEY SMITH . I am governor of Newgate; I recognise the seventeen names in this list—they are all the sub-warders of Newgate.'

Cross-examined by MR. BESLEY. No communication has taken place to my knowledge between Bale and Benson while they have been in the gaol, but I have reason to believe that communications have passed—I have been obliged to separate the men, to alter their cells continually.

FREDERICK WILLIAMSON (re-examined). Among the list of witnesses is Ernest Brioude—I have never seen him write.

A letter signed E B and another signed W was here put in, stating that Madame de Goncourt was likely to accept 8,000l., also several letters from Paris relating to negotiations with the prosecutrix and Mr. Chavance for the repayment of the money.

MR. SERGEANT PARRY'called the following witnesses for William Kurr.

WILLIAM PRICE . I am a solicitor, practising at 38, Walbrook—I knew William Kurr's father some seven or eight years ago, and did business for him on several occasions—I transacted professional business for William Kurr on two occasions with reference to giving up the house in Marquis Road, that was three or four years ago, because he thought it was dangerous to health to live in it, and I endeavoured to put an end to the agreement for him—I recollect receiving a letter from William Kurr about 13th August last year, I gave it to Mr. Humphrey's clerk; this is it (Read: "29, Marquis Road, Canonbury, 13, August, 1876, to S. Price, Esq., Liverpool Road. Dear Sir,—Will you kindly let me know by bearer at what time to-morrow morning you can oblige me by calling here; the matter I wish to see you about is some business I wish to introduce to you It is "important I should see you before going into the City. Wm. Kurr." I live at Barnsbury, two stations beyond Canonbury, on the North. London line—in consequence of that letter I called at the private house a day or two afterwards; I there saw William Kurr—I then went in his company to 55, Beresford Road, and was there introduced to a Mr. Yonge, that is Benson—I had a conversation with him in William Kurr's presence, it was about a bankruptcy petition—I was then engaged professionally for Yonge; I attended at the Court on three or four occasions, and acted in the matter—my first instructions were to avoid an adjudication, there had not been any adjudication then; from that time and "during September I had constant interviews with Kurr with reference to Yonge's bankruptcy petition—you may take it from 15th August till the end of October—I had interviews with Kurr to about the middle of October, occasionally with Benson, more frequently Kurr—the interviews I had with reference to Youge's petition were almost invariably on Yonge's behalf; I insisted on it, in fact, because it took the shape of negotiation for payment of the petitioning creditors debt, and a friend was to find the money for the purpose, and I said on

more than one occasion Benson should not send me instructions personally, I would rather take them through Kurr, who I knew—I knew nothing of Benson before that day—I took my instructions from William Kurr as I understood it was through him that the money was to be found—I think I had from twenty to thirty interviews with Kurr, some of them were at his private house, he called at my house on some few occasions, and I think at my office three or four times, 38, Walbrook—when I called at his house in Marquis Road, it was generally in the morning, on my way to the city, from 9 o'clock to 9.30—the negotiations were unsuccessful and Benson was adjudicated I think on 23rd September—on the day before I received instructions from Benson to offer 500l. to the receiver who had been appointed by the Court of Bankruptcy, in addition to the assets they discovered and had in hand, in order to satisfy his creditors, so that he should not be adjudicated—on the morning of the 23rd I called at Marquis Road, and saw both Kurr and Benson there; Benson, I think it was on that occasion who particularly instructed me to offer 500l. in addition to the assets, for the purpose I have told you—I said "I think it would strengthen my hands if you were to give me the 500l., so that I should not make an empty offer—I asked for the 500l.—Benson said to William Kurr "Will you get it for him," or "for me," I don't know which—William Kurr accordingly left the room and brought in 500l. in Bank of England notes—I ultimately returned them—I made the offer, but it was unsucessful—on my way back that afternoon I called to report what I had done, or rather what I had not done, and I returned to them the same notes—to the best of my belief I put them on the table and Benson took them up and counted them—I can't remember what notes they were; I should think they were old notes, notes that had been in use, not new notes—I should think altogether there were ten or twelve of them—I don't remember what Benson did with them, he seemed to take possession of them—after that there were still further attempts to negotiate with the creditors—I think I saw Benson up to about the middle of October, not daily, I only saw him at intervals—I have a call-book—I have been through my letter's out as far as I could, to ascertain this date, my call-book will not show much about it—I saw William Kurr from time to time in reference to these further negociation—he did not hand me a draft for 900l. on Smith, Payne, and Smith—it was sent to me by Kurr—I was out of town at the time—it was to take the proceedings off the file—I received a letter of credit for 900l. payable to Yonge or order—it came by post from Brighton—I returned it to Kurr and Benson—I paid it in to my bankers, at least the proceeds, on 13th October—I subsequently saw Kurr and Benson with reference to it and had a conversation with them—that was somewhere about 13th October—I think it was at the Stoke Newington Road—it was either there or the Marquis Road; I forget which—I then handed the money back to them—I have my sons letter out acknowledging the receipt of it, in my letter book—I said that I could not take that money as from Yonge, I could only take any money for the purpose of settling with the creditors—I received the draft for 900l. for the purpose of settling with Yonge's creditors—I did not like the notion of taking money from a bankrupt for the purpose of settling with his creditors, because the bankrupt ought to have given up every thing to his creditors—what I did was to find some disinterested friend to advance it—my instructions were that he would find funds to advance it—I declined to take the draft as coming from the bankrupt because I knew that it ought by rights to belong to his creditors, and that he was only giving them what

he ought—I said "I will not take this from you, but if I may take it as coming from William Kurr I will do so"—I preferred that it should appear to come from some one else and not from the bankrupt himself—there was also this reason, that I had known William Kurr and his father, and I did not know Benson—the result of the conversation was I think that the money was taken as a payment—T was told I might take it as a payment by William Kurr—ultimately I think I paid 1,000l. and bought up some securities; the debt of the petitioning creditor—I discussed the mode in which it should be done with the petitioning creditor's solicitors, and I took an assignment of the debt, not to myself, to William Kurr originally—Kurr called at my office and asked me what the mode was in which it was to be carried out—I told him—he said was there any liability about this—I said "No practical liability, you buy the man's debt and become the assignee, the only thing I can see about it is that you may be summoned before the Bankruptcy Court to give some account of this transaction"—he said "Well I have had enough bother about him, I shall have no more, he must get somebody else"—there-upon a man named Street was found who became the assignee—I paid the 1,000l. and Street became the assignee—the bankruptcy was not settled then; it is pending still.

By THE COURT. The object of getting the assignee was to buy up the bankruptcy—the debt was 1,350l.—I expect the 900l. was part of the 1,000l.—I ultimately gave Street back the 850l. which I had left of the 900l.—Benson instructed me that Street would become the assignee—and I paid' Street my cheque for 850l. the balance I had, and he handed me a cheque for 1,050l.—I assumed that Street was acting as one of the friends of Benson at that time—in fact it was the bankrupt buying up that particular debt—he or his friends were going to buy up the whole of his debts—Street had been sent to me by Benson at the first meeting to make proof of a debt due by him to Street—I don't know who Street was, except that he gave me his name—I can give you his address from the draft assignment—I had previously sent the 50l. to Kurr at Brighton—I did not make out any bill of costs—I have been paid by Benson; that 50l. I asked for costs—I was paid fifty guineas in a lump sum—I paid 1,050l. for the purchase money—the 50l. was for my costs and I was afterwards paid two guineas for my disbursements by Benson—I really can't say that the money came out of Benson's pocket—the 50l. I dare say did—but I really have no knowledge of it—I suppose the fact is that it did; but I have no knowledge about it—I expect that Street and William Kurr were nominees of Benson.

By MR. BESLEY. I only saw William Kurr, I think when his father's estate was divided—I heard at that time that he was employed by Debenara and Storr—after leaving them he wrote to me to ask me to give him Borne law copying; I think that was about eighteen months ago—I don't know of either of them having any knowledge of betting transactions—at the time the father died Frederick Kurr was not quite of age, and was a clerk in Debenham and Storr's office—I made efforts to get employment for him as a law writer.

Cross-examined by MR. BOWEN. I never saw Street but twice in my life, he is a dark man, about thirty years of age, as near as I can remember, I saw him at my office, he came to me by appointment, Benson made the appointments—I have not the slightest idea where he is now—he gave me his address, 25, Devonshire Street, Islington; I am looking at the draft assignment of the debt: he gave me that address on the second occasion;

he gave me an address on the first occasion, I don't remember whether it was the same, I think it was, I am pretty well sure of it—I think the first occasion that I saw him was about the 21st September—Mr. Hamilton, the petitioning creditor, is a merchant in Mincing Lane, the amount of debts was about 4,000l. (Mr. Robinson, a clerk from the Court of Bankruptcy, stated that the petitioning creditor's debt was 350l., and that the debtor had not filed any accounts.) May I refer to my pass-book for the second occasion that Street came to me; because on that occasion he gave me the cheque for 1,050l.; it was the last day of October, or the 29th of October, I cannot give the exact date, the bottom entry in the book, 850l., is my cheque for 850l. which I handed to Street, there is no entry of the 1,050l.—Benson said that Street was indebted to him in a sum of 20l., and he came on 21st September, to make a proof, and when I found what it was, I would not take it; it was for money lost on a betting transaction—I received from Street, on the second occasion 1,050l. by a cheque, on the Holborn Circus Branch of the Union Bank of London, it was a cheque drawn in Street's name, signed by him, and payable to me, or order; that does not appear in my book for this reason, my appointment was for the 4th November, to complete the payment of this cheque, he gave me a post dated cheque of that date in exchange for my cheque of 850l.; that was the 850l. that I had in hand payable to me by Kurr, who declined to become assignee, and Street took that money and found the balance for the assignment—I never saw Street excepting on those occasions, or heard from him or of him; I never knew anything of the man before or since—I have not inquired after him since, nor after any of them—I gave Street my cheque for 850l. before I got the 1,050l.; I was careful to get the consent both of Benson and Kurr, together to the giving of this 1,050l. over—I said "Am I to understand that Street is a man of respectability, and that I am to hand over this balance," and they said "Yes"—Benson I believe said it, but it was in Kurr's presence; the bankrupt authorised me to pay over 850l. to the assignee who was going to take an assignment of the petitioning creditor's debt; all I wanted was a good discharge for the money—Benson said that the creditors were all personal friends of the bankrupts, except three, and if the debts of those three were purchased he could arrange with all the others himself—no doubt the object was to get those three creditors paid; first I offered to pay the trustee, he declined, and then I was going to buy the other creditors in detail—I do not think I should know Street's handwriting—I saw the cheque, and I have his endorsement to the 850l. cheque—the first time I saw Benson was at Beresford Road I went there with William Kurr—I don't think I have here any entry of the dates of my interviews with Benson—these are the whole of the entries 1 have in the matter—these are my shorthand clerk's transcripts of entries taken by him—I have none in my own handwriting; these are what I dictated to my clerk from the call-book, and he took it down in shorthand and transcribed it—the first time I received money from William Kurr was in Bank of England notes, which he fetched from another room; they were handed back to Benson—on the second occasion I received a bank bill or a letter of credit—I have never seen that since; I cashed it at Smith, Payne, and Smiths; I should say it was a letter of credit—it was on a sheet of letter paper; I think I cashed it on 13th October—I received Bank of England notes for it—I don't know that Benson knew I was going to cash it, or what was to be done with it—it was received by my son; it was directed to my office and received by me in a letter from Benson—the most

ordinary thing would have been for me to pay it in to my own account—I was not asked to get bank-notes for it; I was not asked to do anything with it; I was to keep it for the purpose of purchasing these debts—I "have not got the letter I received from Benson; I returned it perhaps immediately afterwards, because I refused to take the payment as from Benson; I treated it as a withdrawal of the payment by Benson to me—I paid the bank-notes into my own bank immediately—I did not pay Street's cheque in to my bank for the reason I gave before, that he had post dated it—when the purchase was completed I had to send and get the cheque cashed into notes, and I took the 1,000l. in notes with me, and paid it there and then as the purchase-money for the debt—I paid the cash into my own bank, the Chancery Lane branch of the Union Bank, and here is my pass-book with the entry of the payment in (producing it)—I think I paid it in before I had the interview with Benson and Kurr, at which I said I could not receive it from Benson—I think I kept it about six days,' until I could see them; I received it on 6th October; I can tell by a letter out—I never knew William Kurr by any other name—I have seen him both at Beresford Road and Stoke Newington, but I never went with him but to Beresford Road; he took me there, that was the first interview I had with him—I don't think he had occasion to give any name there—when I went to both places I asked for Yonge—Mr. Hamilton was the petitioning creditor who was to assign the debt to Street—1,350l. was the debt, 350l. he had proved for, and 1,000l. he had not proved for, 1,350l. in all was due to him; the whole of that was to be assigned to Street—the security that Hamilton held was two letters of guarantee signed by Benson; it was rather an intricate case, there were two creditors in fact, the letters are here, one was to Hamilton, and one to Matheson, another creditor.

By THE COURT. The debt arose in this way: Hamilton and Matheson had become security for a man named Andrews for 2,000l. in a Scotch Insurance Company, and in consideration of their becoming bound Benson was to cover them with these letters of guarantee, and they were to have certain securities deposited with them, 1,000l. actual value in Portuguese Government stock—it was Andrews who had deposited the securities—he was to have Hamilton's debts and securities; the 1,000l. Portuguese stock was not among those securities—the security Street was to have was simply some shares in the Bartrup Coal Company; the 1,000l. Portuguese Government shares were given to Matheson, who kept those; but with regard to the Bartrup shares, they put them at less value, and those were the shares that were assigned to Street; it was a very complicated thing—as near as I recollect the last time I saw Benson was late one evening, about the middle of October, when he came to my house—the last time I saw William Kurr was about the middle or the 20th November—he came to me after this fraud had become exposed.

Re-examined. He came to my house one evening and I had a conversesation with him, he came to me among other things for advice—I should think I saw him two or three times a week in September, it was always about this bankruptcy and nothing else, I had no other business with either of them than that—where some creditors are bitterly hostile and others not the only thing you can do is to conciliate the hostile creditors; I did not think there was anything wrong in that, or I should not have done it; I should not have lent myself to the transaction if it had been palpably brought before me that that the bankrupt was finding money belonging to his creditors;

if I had known the status of the parties then as I do now I would have had nothing to do with it—really and truly I thought he had borrowed 500l. from Kurr, I have no reason now to doubt that; I have very little doubt now that the money came from Benson.

DR. ALEXANDER EDWIN MARSDEN . I live at 69, Lincoln's Inn Fields—I am a Fellow of the Royal College of Surgeons of Edinburgh and a Member of the College in London—I have practised as a surgeon about twenty-three years—I have attended William Kurr—I recollect attending him in September last; I saw him twice in September, he called on me in Lincoln's Inn Fields—I saw him in October twice, he called on me and I prescribed for him and told him to regulate his diet and recommended him to leave London—the last time I saw him was on 26th October.

Cross-examined by MR. BOWEN. I never saw him but those four times—; he said he came to me recommended by another patient of mine, I believe, I don't remember who—I made entries in my book of the times I saw him—I was first asked to give evidence about a week or ten days ago—I have not got my book here, I have referred to it; the dates on which I saw him were the 15th and 19th September, and 5th and 26th October—it was on the first or second visit in September that I advised him to go out of town.

WALTER LANGDON . I am a clerk in the Holborn Circus branch of the Union Bank—William Kurr opened an account there in 1870 and has kept it ever since—I have become acquainted with his writing by his signatures and by acting upon his cheques—I can say to a certainty that 100 of them have passed through my hands—I have seen these documents before—I cannot recognise the writing of these two documents P and S 1, dated 11th and 22nd December; to the best of my belief they are not William Kurr's writing, nor are these two letters his (9 and 10)—the first and second of these (packet 105) resemble William Kurr's writing, but the others I do not recognise at all, and I believe them not to be his—I do not believe these three envelopes to be his writing—I do not see any resemblance.

Cross-examined by MR. BOWEN. I do not know William Kurr, except as receiving his cheques as cashier—I do not know this document (produced), I do not believe it to be his writing—I believe 88 to be his, but I do not think 89 is, nor this other—I do not believe these letters, from Kurr to Goad about the house in Marquis Road to be his—I do not think the four are written by the same person who wrote the one—these signatures (to two other documents) are his, I can see a resemblance—the first and third of these telegrams resemble his writing, but one is in pencil and one not—I do not give an opinion whether this "Wilson, Waverley Hotel, Prince's Street, Edinburgh "was written by the same person who wrote the other—I notice the formation of the "W "in Wilson and in Waverley—as a cashier if this was brought to me as a signature I should refuse to pay it—I think the other is written in the natural writing and not in a sort of back hand, it is upright—the, "H "in "Hotel" in telegram number 1 and in "Harrison" in number 5 are made in the same manner, but one is upright and one not, and in my capacity as cashier I should decline paying it from the signature—I see a difference between the two "H's "in the curl in the centre, it is larger—they are both made with two strokes and a loop, only one loop is carried to the bottom of the second stroke, but not in the other—the two down strokes are made in the same way, but one is in ink and the other in pencil, one slanting and the other upright—the "R" in Marquis Road in number 2 and the "R" in Rutland "in number 8 are made by beginning at the top, but in my opinion

they are written by two different writers—in my opinion the "W" in William Gifford in this cheque and the "W" in "William Gifford in this second telegram were not written by the same hand—the "W's" certainly are not made in the same way, nor the "G's."

Re-examined. Every man who make a capital R must make it something alike, according to the mode of teaching in this country—I do not mean to say that there is any similarity between these two "R's."

By THE COURT. I believe one of these documents to be in his writing and two I do not—but the two appear to be in the same writing.

Q. Do not look at the signatures lone, look at the body; are they not all three in the same writing? A. Yes—it is obvious that the signature of number 1 is in the same writing as the body of 89, and I say that the signature is to the best of my belief William Kurr's writing; but I do not believe the body to be—I go by signatures—here is one of William Kurr's cheques (producing a, cheque for 200l. payable to Henry Street or bearer)—Henry Street is a customer of the Union Bank.

WILLIAM PRICE (re-examined). I received some bank-notes from Benson and Kurr, on September 23rd, but did not take their numbers—I only counted them; there were 500—I put them into my pocket and took them to the Bankruptcy Court the next day and asked that they should be counted stating that they had not been out of my pocket—this 900l. draft came to me on I think October 6th; I changed it at Smith, Payne's for notes and paid the exact notes into my bank—I cashed it before paying it because I had never taken such an instrument before—if it had been a cheque I should have paid it in—it was of the nature of a post bill or a letter of credit, payable to Henry Yonge, or order and he endorsed it G. S. Price, or order,—I do not know whether there was a 100l. or a 200l. Bank of England note—I do not think there were nine 100l. notes because I asked for it short—I cannot tell you what notes there were—I took a clerk with me because I wanted him to pay it into my bankers.

By MR. SERJEANT PARRY. I do not think I had any communication with William Kurr about the bankruptcy—Yonge surrended on November 23rd—the warrant is dated November 23rd.

HARRIETT COLKETT . I am the wife of Henry John Colkett, a licensed victualler, of Kingsgate Street, Holborn—I have been married five years next December—I am a sister of William Kurr and am acquainted with his writing—he has not learnt the French language to my knowledge—my attention has been called to certain documents by Mr. Humphreys, his solicitor, to judge of the writing; I do not think these documents dated the 11th and 22nd are his writing, nor these two letters, I believe they are not his writing—I cannot say this telegram number 2 is not his writing, and I have my doubts about numbers 1 and 3; I do-not believe either of them is his—this envelope number 66 I believe not to be his, but in this one the "H" in "Hotel" is rather similar—the general writing of number 67 is not like his, but there is the same kind of "H," I have seen my brother make "H's" like this, but should not like to say positively—with the exception of the two"H's," the other portions of the writing on these envelopes are not in my brother's writing, and this one entirely not.

By MR. BESLEY. If Frederick Kurr has had any French education, it is very limited—he is quite incapable of composing a letter in French, or writing one with a familiar ending like this—I scarcely know when he left Debenham and Storr's—he was trying to get a situation as a law writer at

Witherby's; I cannot say for how long, because I lost sight of him, and did not see sufficient of him to know how he was going on.

Cross-examined by MR. BOWEN. I never saw Benson till I saw him in Court—my husband does not know French, I learnt French when I was younger, but I know very little of it; I was not unwell about the middle of March, nor was one of my children, unless it might have been a little cold, not sufficient importance for me to take notice of—I do not remember it, so do not put it down—I do not know why I am anxious for you not to put it down—I was in Court yesterday and the day before, but only part of the day; I did not hear my husband's name mentioned yesterday; I appeared in Court shortly after the adjournment, say 2 o'clock or a little after, I did not hear the letters read; I was told that my husband's name was mentioned in them—I have not seen any letter of Benson's in my husband's possession to my knowledge, nor has Benson been in communication with him to my knowledge—I believe Benson was desirous of communicating with him, but he objected to hold any communication with him—my husband is here; I know Fenn, a clerk in the Union Bank, but no one else of that name—I know a man named Street; it is some little time since I saw him—I can scarcely remember when it was—I cannot say whether he has been at our house during the last three months'; I will not undertake to say that he has not because I am not always there—I first knew him, I should say, about two or three years ago, as far as my memory serves me—he is a dark man, about twenty-eight or thirty, and not very tall—I think I have seen him at our house this winter, but not often—I always understood him to be a betting man—he was scarcely a friend or acquaintance of ours—he was a customer; that is how I became acquainted with him—I do not remember ever having seen his writing; I was in Court a short time this morning during the examination of the gentlemen from the bank—I heard the gentlemen ask about the letter "H"—I went down to Mr. Humphreys when I saw the envelopes, I think I saw the telegrams last Tuesday or Wednesday, and it was at the same time that I told Mr. Humphreys that there was a similarity in the "H's"—to the best of my belief this "yours truly "on this letter (looking at one) is not my brother's; I do not see any similarity—it is not particularly unlike it; I should conclude in my own mind that it is not his writing—I say "not particularly "because I have looked at it again since, and I have come to that conclusion; I believe I have seen it before, but I did not read it; I suppose it is one of two letters which I saw—I cannot tell you what they were about, because I did not read I them—I suppose so because in turning it over I saw it by the accident. (Another letter was handed to the witness folded). I should say that this is not my brother's writing—I have heard my brother called Gifford in my presence, but it is some time ago; I believe that on one occasion, two years ago, I heard him called so—I do not remember by whom; I have also heard that he went by the name of Harrison; I never heard him called by that name—I know Stoke Newington Road—my brother never lived there to my knowledge; I have never addressed him there—I knew Bale sometime ago as a greengrocer; I have seen Murray on several occasions at the last public-house we had, the Oxford Arms—he was an occasional customer—I did not know him under any other name than Murray then, but I have heard of his having done so—he was an acquaintance of my brother's—I have seen them together in the bar—I do not know Dante Road; I know no one named Wells—Munro is the name I heard that Murray went under, but I do not know it positively; I

did not ask him about it—my brother Frederick has not gone by any other name to my knowledge—I should say not.

By THE COURT. I do not know Amos Terrace, Victoria Road, Leyton-stone—I was never in Edinburgh—(looking at letters 9 and 10 to Goad) this (9) is rather like my brother's writing; I should think it was his—I should doubt the other; I should say it was not his—(comparing the two) I don't think they are alike—this (letter 88, to Harrison) I should think was his writing; I do not see any difference between these two letters—I should say this (89) was his writing; I think there is a likeness between the two; this is a trifle smaller—I have heard that my brother William passed under the name of William Harrison; I never heard him addressed so—I should think this cheque was his writing. (This was a cheque of William Harrison, dated 4th September, 1875, to H. Colkett for 4,400l.) This is my husband's endorsement.

Re-examined. When I first saw these envelopes (H H) I told Mr. Humphreys what I have said to-day; I think it was on Tuesday or Wednesday—I and my husband have been in communication with Mr. Humphreys in reference to my brother's defence; I have not made any communication to Mr. Humphreys, except as to the handwriting; that was last Tuesday—I had seen Mr. Humphreys before, my husband had communication with him; I really do not know who employed Mr. Humphreys, I don't know whether my husband had employed him or my brother.

By MR. STRAIGHT. I should say it must have been four years since I knew Bale, that was when he was a, greengrocer—I don't know that his father died about five years ago, or that his name was Henry—I have heard that he was fond of racing, and going on race courses.

By MR. WILLIAMS. We left the Oxford Arms last August—I could not tell how long it is since I saw Murray there—we were two years and some few months there; I think it was in the early part of the time we were there that I saw him there.

CATHERINE OHLSON . I am the wife of George Ohlson, a pawnbroker, in the Caledonian Road, and am the sister of William Kurr; he is not acquainted with the French language to my knowledge; we were all brought up together—my attention has been called to certain documents in relation to his handwriting, by Mr. Humphreys; I saw them at the same time as my sister, but we gave our opinion separately—I do not believe these two documents of 11th and 22th September to be in my brother's handwriting; I cannot recognise any resemblance to his writing in these two letters—I believe the second of these telegrams to be his, it is "If any letters, send to the above address, hope to return shortly"—I don't think the third is his nor the first; I don't see any resemblance, nor in any of the others—I believe those (some others) are not his writing.

Cross-examined by MR. SOLICITOR-GENERAL. I identify none but the second telegram as being in my brother's writing; he spells his name Kerr—in the one that I say is his writing it is spelt Kerr—I did not know that he was at the Bridge of Allan, or where he was on 5th November, or during October—I did not know that he was going to leave London about September—I think I last saw him before he was taken into custody, about the end of September or the beginning of December; it was shortly before Christmas—I mean November, not September—I did not see him in October—it was at the time my sister went to the new public-house—I paid her a visit about three weeks after she went there—I believe she went

there in September—I had not seen my brother for some months before November—it was shortly before my sister left the Oxford Arms; that was in August, I believe—that is as near as I can say—I visited him once in the Marquis Road—I do not think this is my brother's writing—I think this is (order to Waterston)—I don't think this (86) is his—I don't think the two are in the same handwriting—I do no not think this (another) is my brother's—I do not know the writing—I do not know Street, but I have seen him, I saw him last at my sister's house, the Mitre, in Kingsgate Street, at the time I paid her the visit about the end of November or beginning of December—I know Murray, I have seen him, and I have seen the other one—I have seen Murray at the Oxford Arras about two years ago; I met him coming out of the billiard-room, I did not speak to him—I used to know him—he used to visit at my father's house as a friend of my eldest brother, who is how dead—that would be ten years back—I have also seen Bale at my father's house seven or eight years ago—I have not seen much of him—I have not seen him since—I should not have recognised him had I not known who he was—I do not know Benson—I have never seen him before—I do not know any person named Dr. Fuffer or Poole—I have seen Mr. Colkett here to-day.

MRS. COLKETT (re-examined). I do not know any person of the name of Fuffer—I have not heard the name that I remember—I fancy I have heard the name spoken by somebody, but I really cannot recollect by whom or when, it must be some time ago—I don't think they called him Dr. Fuffer, my memory is so very vague with respect to it—it is only on consideration that I remember having heard it at all, I cannot remember in connection with what—I don't think I heard it from my brother; I could not say really.

JAMES WIGGINS . I live at 22, Davenant Road, Upper Holloway—I am a veterinary surgeon, I am a member of the Veterinary College—I have been in practice about twenty years—I know William Kurr, and have known him attending races for five or six years—he was the owner of racehorses—I have bought horses for him—he had two horses, Coroner and Chance—this (produced) is the "Racing Chronicle"—last year Chance only ran twice, he broke down the second time I believe—I think Coroner only ran once, he might have run two or three times—I think he ran at Hampton—I know Richard Rowe, the trainer—he used to train those horses—I saw him here this morning—I know Sandown Park races very well—to the best of my recollection I was there last August—neither Chance or Coroner ran there—I remember going down to those races with William Kurr—it was the first day of Sandown Races—I only know the day from its being the first day of the races, I have nothing else to call it to my memory; I cannot give you the day of the month, I had no reason to take note of it; I know it was the first day because I did not go to the second—I drove down with Kurr, I met him by appointment at the Angel, Islington—he drove in a very nice high two-wheeled gig—I was at the Angel about 9 o'clock, he was not there till about 9.10 or 9.15—we stopped two or three times on our way to the races, the first place was at Clark and Valentines, the brewers, in Sutton Street, Clerkenwell, where I had to look at a black mare of Mr. Clark's that I had to put in splints—I saw Mr. Clark—we then drove near to the Vauxhall Station, where Kurr wanted to get change of a 5l. or 10l. note, as he had no gold, and we had a pint bottle of champagne out of it—I think we went out of our road then; we went round by Richmond Hill, and called at a public-house on the right-hand side—I don't

know the sign of it, but I know the house, because we called there in coining back—we went on from there to Kingston—I should not like to swear to the sign of the house that we stopped at there—I think it was the Griffin—we then drove to the racecourse—we put up a little past the racecourse—I suppose Sandown is 20 miles from the Angel—I am only guessing, it is not above 3 or 4 miles from Kingston—we arrived at the racecourse about the middle of the day, about 12 o'clock I should think—I don't know whether the races began at 1 or 2 o'clock; we were there a good time before the race; Mr. Kurr wished to be there in time because he wanted to see Rowe about a horse before the races—I remember a mat being lost out of the gig that day, it was one that Kurr had had made for him—I don't think it was found—before last year I knew of his carrying a revolver about with him—that was about fifteen months ago, at the time he used to go to the Oxford Arms and play at billiards often very late, at Mr. Colkett's, his brother-in-law—I have frequently walked home with him from there—I knew well that he carried the revolver, several people knew it, it was no secret, he said if anybody interfered with him it would intimidate them to fire it off—many people in the Oxford Arms knew that he carried several valuable stones with him—I knew he was a betting man—I only knew by hearsay that he was a dealer in diamonds or jewellery—I have seen him with many diamonds about him—I saw him driving in September just by McDonnell's, the Green Dragon, at Winch more Hill; it was on the St. Leger day, that is the 13th September, I don't think he saw me, he went by—I can swear that I saw him driving on that day—my sight is not very good—I saw the pony more than him—I was going to Enfield fishing—I had two gentlemen with me.

Cross-examined by MR. SOLICITOR-GENERAL. I have known William Kurr five or six years, I suppose; I have always known him by that name, never by any other—I am a friend of his, I have visited at his house frequently at Marquis Road—I have seen Murray and Bale, not there, I have seen Bale at the Oxford, he used to come there and play billiards of an evening, I have played billiards with him there; he had a greengrocer's shop close by—I have known Murray two or three years, I dare say it might be more, three or four perhaps, I could not speak positively—I can't tell you where our first acquaintance was, I have met him at Collin's Music-hall very often of an evening, I never had any introduction to him; he used to come about races, backing horses and that; I have seen Mm at different meetings in the country—I never saw him at the Oxford—I never went with him to any race meeting—I have never betted with him to my recollection—I know nothing about a betting establishment of his, I never heard of it—I think I have seen Frederick Kurr at the Oxford—I knew him as Frederick Kurr, never by any other name—I am in the habit of attending Sandown Park Races, I can't tell you how many races there are there in a year, I suppose four or five—I never drove down to Sandown but that once, I have always gone by train—I suppose on race days it takes you an hour to go there by train; it is very crowded on race days, as bad as Croydon—I have no book or diary to show the day we drove down, nothing to refresh my memory, but its being the first day of the races—we drove back in the same trap, it was put up just past the racecourse, at Esher, I did not notice the sign of the house; no doubt Mr. Rowe or Mr. Griffin can tell you, Griffin met us there—we got back to London about 8 o'clock, it was darkish—I think we left Sandown about 6 o'clock, I think the last race was about 5.30

and we left about half an hour after; there are only two day's racing there—I have known Rowe about fifteen or eighteen months, he went down to Newmarket to buy a horse; I don't believe he has been turned off the racecourse, I believe he has been suspended from riding, I think he is a steeplechase jockey—we did not dine at the house where we put up, I had something to drink in the house, nothing to eat; I could not say whether Kurr had anything, he might, not in my company—Rowe was there and Griffin, I don't know that we were all in the house together, we were there, in the yard, if not in the house; it is some time ago, I can't say whether we were all four in the house together or not—I had dinner on the racecourse, if you call it a dinner; I took something with me, I frequently do when I go to races-William Kurr was not with me after we came on the racecourse till we came away again, he went into Tattersall's ring, he was a member, I was not—we separated about 1.30 if the races began at 2 o'clock and we met after the race was over, at 5 o'clock or 5.30; I can't say, sometimes races are over at 4 o'clock and sometimes at 6 o'clock—I was in company with several persons in the interval, when I say in company I suppose I had a chat with a lot of bookmakers and others, passing the day and that sort of thing—I saw Rowe on the racecourse—if there had been any horses there that Mr. Kurr had bought, or had a chance of buying, I dare say I should have had to examine them for him—I have attended many meetings for him; that was ray purpose in going there, I went as much as a friend; if he had bought a horse I should have been paid for examining it; I was not to be paid unless he bought a horse—the arrangement to go down was made the evening previous in Islington near the Angel and we had a cigar together at the Angel; there was no one else there that I know of—I dare say we were at the Angel twenty minutes, perhaps a little more; we were standing at the corner bar—I had some cold brandy and water—I am positive I have been speaking of the first day of the races and not the second, because I did not go on the second; I told Kurr that I should not come the next day and he said "I don't know whether I shall, I shan't drive down at any rate"—I did see him afterwards; I did not know from him whether he was there the second day, I never inquired, I took no interest in it—I can't prove what day it was that I saw him next, I saw him so frequently; I can't say how many times I saw him during September, I have nothing to go by—it might be October; I am sure I saw him during September; I saw him at Collins' Music hall once or twice, between 8 and 12 o'clock at night—I can only remember seeing him in the day time in September on the St. Leger day when he drove by; I dare say that was about 2 o'clock in the afternoon, that is the only day I can swear to—I have not the slightest idea how he was engaged at that time, any more than racing—I have had correspondence with him; I have not any of his letters now, I don't think I ever had above one letter from him in my life; that is some time ago, three or four years, I should think, I can't tell you what it was about—I have not been asked to look at his handwriting, no documents have been shown to me with that object—I have seen him writing letters at his own house—I should not know his handwriting if I saw it, I should not like to pass an opinion upon it; I might have an opinion, but it would not be worth much—I should think the signature "William Harrison "to this cheque was not his writing—as to the pistol, he said it was well for people to know that he had one for fear somebody should interfere with him going home at night—I said "What is the good of carrying it

loaded?"—he said "If I only fired it off it would cause an alarm"—I only know it was loaded because he said so; I don't know why it should be loaded with ball, I thought it was a dangerous thing for him to hare, he might have an accident with it.

Re-examined. I have never seen any writing of his to notice; I don't know anything about his handwriting, we had some refreshment at the Griffin, at Kineston, we stayed there twenty minutes or half an hour, I dare say—I have frequently met him at the Angel, latterly I generally met him somewhere about the High Street, or at Collins'; I used to meet him generally at the Oxford—it is part of the business of a veterinary surgeon to go to races, and give advice about a horse if a person wishes to buy it.

By THE COURT. I know something about a racecourse, I bet sometimes, I am sorry to say, I have no betting-book, I back a horse, I used to when I bet with the Marquis of Hastings, and all that lot, but I have not done it lately, I have bet with the Marquis of Hastings, and the Duke of Newcastle, and all of them—the last race I was at was the Grand Hurdle Race, at Croydon, about a month ago, in March—I had some bets there, one or two; before that I was not at any race since Sandown, when I went with Mr. Kurr—I was at Streatham, because we ran Chance there in my name, I don't recollect having any bet there, I can't swear I did not, I backed Chance—I keep no memorandum-book; I have no books at all, I have not sufficient practice for that—I was veterinary surgeon to my brother, who is connected with distilleries, he had a contract which ceased two or three years ago—I had Nicholson's contract; that ceased about a year and a half ago—I have been to Mr. Finnis' lately—I have no books in which Iput down my attendance on horses.

GEORGE CLARK . I live in Sutton Street, Clerkenwell, and am theproprietor of the Crown Brewery, in partnership with Mr. Grimble—I know William Kurr, and also Mr. Wiggins—I remember their calling on me in the morning in the autumn, between 9 and 10 o'clock—I had a black mare which had been under Wiggins' treatment, I asked him if he would like her out—he said no, he would see her in the stable; I asked him why he was in such a hurry—he said "We are going to Sandown Races"—they were in the street in a gig—Kurr was driving—he drove away.

Cross-examined by MR. BOWEN. I had seen Kurr, five or six times before—he had the Oxford Arms; I understand that Cuthbert had the license of that house in his name and Kurr found the money; I cannot give you the date or the month, or the year when he came in the gig—yes, it was last year—I have never been asked to come here to give evidence—I was only subpoenaed yesterday, very much against my will—I would sooner have given 100l. than come to-day—Mr. Humphrey's clerk subpoenaed me—yesterday was the first time anybody spoke to me about Kurr and Wiggins calling, nor had 1 spoken to anybody about it before—I do not know how they found me out; I have known Wiggins from my boyhood—my black mare has no name, but I can give you the name of the gentleman I sold her to by looking at my books, but not from memory; I sold her sometime in September, Wiggins did not come by appointment—I know nothing about the turf—I have never been to Sandown Races—I know there is such a meeting, but do not know at what time of the year it is—I have never locked to see the date; it did not concern me at all.

By THE COURT. Nobody told me that my evidence was required with reference to Sandown Races—I was not examined by the clerk—I did not

give my proofs to anybody—I mean to tell you that until I got into the box I had no notion that I was going to prove that Wiggins and one of the prisoners came to my house at some time or other—I had a notion of the object for which I was going to be called because the clerk told me—he took down my answers—he only asked me if Wiggins came down, and if Kurr came down with him, and I said "Yes, certainly."

By MR. BOWEN. I knew Kurr's name, and I knew him by sight—he had never been to my house when he came with Wiggins—I was at the Brewery, 367, City Road—that was not the first time I had seen him there—Kurr remained in the gig—I am certain that Wiggins said he was going to Sandown Races—I said so yesterday to Mr. Humphrey's clerk—I have a multiplicity of things to think about—I am subpoenaed against my will—I do not remember whether I said a word yesterday to Mr. Humphrey's clerk about the conversation about Sandown Races—my black mare had no name—I can furnish you to-morrow with the name of the gentleman who bought her, but not to-day, and I can give you the name of the vet who examined her—I cannot tell you where the gentleman lives, but I can furnish you with it—she had a splint, which was completely cured—I know none of Kurr's family; I have never seen them, or Bale's.

Re-examined. The mare was sold privately, and Mavor, of Oxford, examined her I believe—I bought her of my partner, Mr. Banting—I have been examined before in a court of justice—I am very deaf—I sold her for 57 guineas—I cannot tell you whether it is twelve months or twenty years since I bought her—I am aware of what I am saying—it is ridiculous to ask me such a question as that, I thought you were in jest—I think it is about eighteen months since I bought her of my partner—it is less than twenty years—it was some time in the autumn of last year that Kurr and Wiggins came in the gig—I saw the mare after she was sold—Mayor I think it was saw her on the part of the person who bought her, and she went perfectly sound—I think I mentioned to Mr. Humphreys' clerk that they said they were going to Sandown Races.

By THE COURT. I have seen Wiggins to-day, and have been speaking to him—we are old friends, almost boys together—I have known him twenty years—I also saw him yesterday, but not the day before—I saw him about a week ago, most likely at the Brewery—I did not hear from him that he was coming here as a witness—I was in Court when he was examined—I cannot positively say whether I saw him last week at the Brewery—I said so because I am mostly there—I mean to say that he said nothing to me then about coming here for Kurr—I am sure he did not, because he knew perfectly well that if he said anything about it I should not have come here—had he told me so I should have gone out of town.

RICHARD ROWE . I am a trainer of racehorses at Padworth, Surrey, about 18 miles from town—my stables are opposite the Red Lion, kept by Mr. Griffin—I have trained racehorses for William Kurr for about a twelvemonth at Padworth, one of them was called Chance and another Coroner—in August last William Kurr was in the habit of driving down to my stable to look at his horses—he came down about the latter end of August, and at the beginning of September, a week before the Leger, and a week afterwards—he did not drive down every week—he used to get down about o'clock—after he had looked over the stables, and the horses we used to go and dine at the Red Lion—he usually left between 5 and 6 o'clock—Chance has been in my stable about twelve months and Coroner about nine months

—Chance is a horse—he ran twice and Coroner twice—I went with Mr. Griffin to Sandown Races last year—I believe it was in August—we went the first day; we got there about 12 or 12.15—the first day of Sandown Park Races was August 1st—I saw Mr. Kurr frequently during the day in the ring—I did not see Kurr leave the course—I saw him after the last race was run, but I did not see him start to go home—the last race, I believe, was run at 5.30—I went back the same way as I came.

Cross-examined by MR. SOLICITOR-GENERAL. I was only there the first day—I drove back with Mr. Griffin in the wagonette. (Griffin was here sent out of (Court.) I do not know the sign of the house where we put up at, but it was at Esher I am sure—I have been there several times with Griffin—I do not know who kept it, or whether it is kept by a man or a woman—there is a man there and a woman too, and a barmaid or two—I was there last August—I was there three times during the summer, and I have been there in previous years two or three times a year for about two years—I had something to drink there, which I paid for, and not Griffin—I swear that—it was a glass of ale, nothing else—Griffin was with me when I had it, and he had one as well—we had it in the front bar—we put the horse up at the same house—we left about 6 o'clock—Kurr and Wiggins put up there also; I saw them put up—Griffin and I went away first, I am sure of that—when we left their truck was still there—I saw nobody with Kurr but Wiggins—Wiggins and Kurr and myself met in the yard—only us three—Kurr went away—I was first asked to be a witness last Tuesday week at Mr. Humphreys' office—Mr. Wiggins asked me to go there—he only asked me what I knew about Mr. Kurr, about his driving down to Padworth, not to Sandown Park—he did not ask me about finding him at Sandown Park—he did not tell me that he was coming here as a witness—he told me that I was to go to Mr. Humphreys' office about driving to Padworth—I never gave evidence about seeing these two men at Sandown Races—I have been asked that since I came in the witness-box—I was not asked about it before.

Re-examined. I was asked about Kurr going down to Padworth, and I said that he came down two or three times in September, and they sent me to William Humphreys' office to tell him what I knew last Tuesday week—I was never asked by anybody whether I saw Kurr at Sandown Park races—I saw Wiggins at Sandown and Kurr; Mr. Griffin was with me—my attention was not called to the subject of Sandown after Tuesday week.

JAMES GRIFFIN . I keep the Red Lion at Padworth—I know William Kurr by his driving to our house, that is all—two horses of his were under Richard Rowe's care there, and he drove down to see them and used to put up his trap at my house, and go over to his stable, which is close by—other "horses besides his are in training at the same stable—I have known Richard Rowe the trainer seven years, but he has not been training all that time, only twelve months or a little over—on 31st August last year, the first day of Sandown races, I drove down there with Rowe in my wagonette; we got down before the races began, which I think is at 1 o'clock—I never was there before, but I think it was the White Hart, at Esher, that I put up at, and Kurr and Wiggins put up at the same house—I know Wiggins by his coming to my house with Kurr; I have seen him at the stables in reference to Mr. Kurr's horses—a lot of carriages put up at the same house; I saw Kurr and Wiggins there—I would not be positive about seeing them before the racing was over—I saw Rowe on the course,

but did not remain with him; they are professionals and went on business, and I went for pleasure—I remember having a bet with Kurr on the Leger, a bottle of champagne; before the Leger he bet with me on Kisber against Petrarch.

Cross-examined by MR. SOLICITOR-GENERAL. I first made William Kurr's acquaintance at the beginning of 1876, February or March, by his taking refreshment at my house—I only knew him as Mr. Kurr; he came every week or ten days, and generally brought a friend; Wiggins came with him sometimes; neither of the other prisoners came down with him; I have never seen them before to my knowledge—I saw William Kurr for the first time that day at 12.30 as nearly as I can say, that is within half an hour, certainly; it may have been 1 o'clock or it may have been 12 o'clock—I am sure I saw him as early as 12.30; I have had no conversation with Rowe about it; I know him, he came with me here by rail this morning, we travelled in the same compartment—he was subpoenaed at the same time that I was on Wednesday, a week ago; we were together when we were subpoenead by Mr. Humphreys—I was informed that I was to come to say whether Mr. Kurr had ever been down to my house; nothing was said when I was subpoenaed about my being able to prove that he was at Sandown Races the first day of the races; but on Wednesday, Mr. Humphreysin Rowe's presence asked me whether I remembered seeing Kurr at Sandown Races, and I believe he asked Rowe also—Rowe and I started at 9 o'clock this morning to come here, we have not been talking about this visit to the races, there was no occasion—I was subpoenaed last Wednesday week, and last Wednesday was the day I was asked if I remembered seeing Kurr at the races—Rowe and I went to Mr. Humphreys together, but neither of us spoke about seeing Kurr at Sandown—we had no other business, and we were coming up to have our evidence written down; Mr. Humphreys wrote to me—I am sure I did not speak to Rowe or he to me about what we were going to prove—we put up at the White Hart; I believe it is at Esher—I had some bitter beer, I believe in front of the bar, and I believe Rowe had the same; I paid for both—Rowe was going to the races, I wanted to see them and he rode with me; I have taken him to races before—I keep a trap and take people to races; Rowe paid half the fare, half a guinea; nobody else was in the trap—I also took him to Croydon Races last June or July; there was two days racing I think—it is sometimes two days, and sometimes three—I took him on the first day; I will swear that—I also took Mr. Blackman, Mr. Janson, and Mr. Dudley, all of Walton-on-the: Hill—we got to Croydon about midday; it is 10 or 12 miles from my place, and Sandown is about 11 miles—it is my habit to go when I get a job, but sometimes my son drives—Kurr told me he was going to attend Sandown Races a day or two before—I was walking about the course all day and saw Kurr on the stand about 4 o'clock—I should think I had been there two or three hours—I was not there the next day.

Re-examined. I have carried on business at Padworth twenty-three years under a license from the Magistrates.


MURRAY— GUILTY as accessory after the fact.

Benson also PLEADED GUILTY to having been previously convicted at this Court in July, 1872.

The prosecutrix recommended the prisoners to mercy.

BENSON— Fifteen Years' Penal Servitude.


and FREDERICK KURR— Ten Years' Penal Servitude; MURRAY— Eighteen Months' Imprisonment.

The costs of the prosecution, after being taxed, to be paid by the prisoners.


Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-392
VerdictNot Guilty > no evidence

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392. WILLIAM DAVIS (29) , Rape on Hannah Elizabeth Sneath.

MR. CHARLES MATHEWS for the Prosecution offered no evidence.



Before Robert Malcolm Kerr, Esq.

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-393
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceNo Punishment > sentence respited

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393. ROSE HUNT (17) , PLEADED GUILTY to unlawfully obtaining, by false pretences, nine purses from Henry Edward Cockell, two shirts from George Abbott, and five shifts and four pairs of drawers from William Law— Judgment respited.

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-394
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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394. WALTER SLOWGROVE (29) , Stealing one purse and 1l. 5s. In money, of Amy Boxall, from her person.

MR. GOODMAN conducted the Prosecution.

AMY BOXALL . I live at 12, Market Hall Woolwich—the prisoner passed the night of 23rd March with me—in the morning he asked me for 4s. To pay for the lodgings—I gave it him—he asked for more, I have frequently given him money—my purse was in my hand and contained 25s. or more—he snatched it against my will; he was dressed I was not—he said he was going to get some beer—I expected Him to come back; he did not.


9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-395
VerdictNot Guilty > no prosecutor

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395. WALTERS LOWGROVE was again indicted for stealing two coats and a pair of trousers, the goods of William Upton.

MR. GOODMAN conducted the Prosecution.

It appeared by a medical certificate that the prosecutor was of unsound mind and could not appear, the Jury found a verdict of


Before Mr. Recorder.

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-396
VerdictGuilty > unknown; Not Guilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment; Imprisonment

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396. HENRY JAMES SCOTT (29), GUSTAV WAGNER (32), and WILLIAM STEEL (39) , unlawfully conspiring to defraud Richard Carpenter, of 75l., by false pretences. Second Count—charging Scott alone with obtaining 18l. 3s. 3d. and 56l. 16s. 9d. of Richard Carpenter, by false pretences.

SIR HENRY JAMES , Q.C, MR. RIBTON, and MR. SAFFORD conducted the Prosecution; MR. METCALFE, Q.C., and MR. MIRAMS appeared for Scott, MESSRS. PURCELL andGLYN for Wagner, and MR. KEOGH for Steel.

RICHARD CARPENTER . I am a pawnbroker, of High Street, Deptford, and have been a customer of Mr. Chatwood, of 120, Cannon Street; of whom in 1875, I bought a genuine Chatwood's safe—early in 1876 I required another safe for another business of the same sort—I went to Cannon Street, where I saw Scott—I told him I required a safe for my business premises at Deptford, describing the size I required—he said he had not one at that time but if I waited two or three weeks he probably might hear of one—shortly afterwards he wrote saying he had met with such a safe as I required—I called on him and he gave me the size—I said it was rather larger than I required—I asked him the price and he said 75l.—I told him; it was more than I expected to pay—he said the price new would be 120l. he said it was made by the firm of Chatwood, for the Peruvian Government

and that it was then in Paris, and he would advise me of its arrival in London—I then left—some two or three weeks after I received a letter from Scott which is destroyed—I have searched for it—it was from Chatwood's Company to the effect that the safe had arrived and to get my place ready for the reception of it—all the letters from Chatwood's Company, bore "120, Cannon Street;"—the place was prepared at 9 o'clock according to instructions—the safe arrived at about 3 or 4 o'clock in the afternoon of the same day—six or seven men came with it with Wagner as the foreman—they were three or four hours fixing it during which time Wagner was there apparently superintending and directing them—the door of the safe was open and I called Wagner's attention to the fact that the name of Chatwood did not appear on the door on the inner part; it should appear on a sort of central plate on the inner part of the door—he said that the safe had been repainted and it was obliterated or erased—I also called attention to the want of the escutcheon on the outer part of the door; and he said that it had been taken off to be re-lacquered—it is a sort of tablet over the keyhole to protect it—I gave him some money for beer and they left—Steel looked on for about an hour while they were putting the safe in its place—I cannot say whether he heard the conversation between Wagner and me—Wagner called the next day but I was not there—an escutcheon was brought the next day or the day after, and put on in my presence—two or three days after, before I saw Scott again, Steel applied for the money with this invoice "to second-hand safe "so much—I objected to it as it did not specify that it was a Chatwood's safe, and I refused to pay—he said he would take the invoice back and report what I said—next day, or the day after, he brought this invoice (produced) upon which I paid him the money—I saw him sign it—I cannot say whether the body of it is in his writing. (The invoice described the safe as one of Chatwood's second-hand Octucple Invincible Steel Banker's Safes, No. 7643, from the Government of Peru, 75l., expenses of delivery 1l. 10s., 76l. 10s., and dated May 13th, 1876.) I gave him this cheque, (produced) for 18l. 3s. 3d. and the rest in notes and gold—It is not my own cheque; but it was paid to me—I saw Scott some two or three days afterwards and asked him how it was there was a Lord's lock on one of the doors and the rest of the locks were made by Chatwood—he said that it was the wish of the Peruvian Government to have one of Lord's locks put on—I parted with my money thinking it was one of Chatwood's safes—I should not have bought it otherwise—I saw Mr. Chatwood about August, who told me that it was not one of his safes—I had never seen him before—I had bought a safe of him previously—I believe he saw the safe at my place, but I was at another shop when I saw him—I mentioned the escutcheon to Scott and he said it had been re-lacquered.

Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. The safe I bought before was a new one—I concluded that transaction with Scott, I looked upon him as the manager; I knew nothing about Mr. Chatwood not dealing in second-hand safes—I took these proceedings at Greenwich some time in March, I think—I am the prosecutor—Mr. Chatwood has not said that he will be liable for the expense; I hope he will be; he has not said directly that he will be—I was defrauded by his people—the delay in my taking proceedings was because Mr. Chatwood had told me he was going through his books—I heard later on that Chatwood had discharged Scott, or quarrelled with him, and I heard that he had other complaints against Scott—I had not, independently of Mr. Chatwood, had any engineer to look at the safe; I have since, but

not an independent person—I have not the slightest idea whether it is "Chatwood and Co.," or whether Mr. Chatwood is the company—I merely want a safe and go to his place for it—I know nothing of the people—the bolts of the safe fit badly—I am not an engineer—I have not instructed an engineer to look at it—I believe Scott applied to see it and saw it since this inquiry, I was not there at the time; they have never made application at my place to see it since—they asked the Magistrate to make an order for it to be seen, but he refused to makes the order, and I objected to show it unless recommended to do so by my solicitor, Mr. Boardman—I never received an order and they have not applied to see it—I made the objection in the midst of conversation at the police-court—I do not know that an engineer was sent on Scott's behalf to my place of business to see the safe and was refused permission to see it.

Cross-examined by MR. GLYN. Wagner appeared to be foreman of the men who brought the safe; the principal conversation I had with him was about the beer for the men—the safe door was open when I asked him about the name—Wagner said the escutcheons had gone to be re-laquered and somebody would come and fix them—he did not tell me where they had gone or who had told him so—I did not ask him what name was going to be on; certainly not my name—I do not remember Wagner saying he supposed my name was to be put on, to the best of my belief he did not, I will not go further than that—I never saw Wagner again.

Cross-examined by Steel. The day the safe was delivered you did not come down with the others, but came later on—I did not hear you make any observation; I did not know what your business was-; I do not remember your asking if the safe had been delivered; you stood there looking on while the men fastened the safe.

Re-examined. I was not there when the escutcheons came down, which was two or three days afterwards—there was something about the Government of Peru on them—the safe is not in the brickwork, it is merely rested upon timber, it is 6 feet high, it is a very great weight, you would have great difficulty in getting it up here; we are on the ground floor—this is one escutcheon. (This was inscribed "E. Gobierno, Del Peru") The other is just the same.

By THE COURT. I am under the impression that when I asked where the name was Wagner said that the safe had been re-painted and the name obliterated.

RICHARD WEBSTER . I am foreman at Bolton to Chatwood and Co's works, where the patent safes are manufactured—I have been there nine years and knew Wagner as being employed there as safe finisher; he left about four years ago—I have seen the safe at Mr. Carpenter's, which he bought in 1876—it is not a Chatwood,'s safe, nor was it made at the Bolton manufactory; they have no other manufactory—it is not so strong as our patent safes, the material is thinner; the lock is Chatwood's, but it is not intended for a safe lock at all, it is simply intended for a wooden drawer; it would not be proof against burglars—I have tested the composition between the plates, and I believe it not to be fire-proof—I should say the safe as it stands, taking the price of the material and workmanship, would be produced for about 30l.; it is intended to imitate a Chatwood's safe—there is a T iron frame in the body and the look-case used is to represent Chatwood's, but it is put together in the block, what we call a block jib—any man with a hammer

and chisel could put a safe together in that manner; it is not done by machinery; ours are done by special machinery—I have been down to Middlesborough to see a safe at a Mr. Eaton's, a pawnbroker, which is numbered 7,643; that had been manufactured by us in the ordinary course and sent to the London depot as a stock safe in December, 1871; Wagner finished that safe—this escutheon (produced) is one of our make; not the lock; it goes over the key hole; it would be used as a deed-box escutcheon, not a safe escutcheon at all—this escutcheon marked "E. Gobierno, del Peru" is not our manufacture at all, but it is made out of our material, our 3 inch till lock castings; some of them are in London in stock; they come up as rough castings and are kept in store for repairs.

Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. The material and workmanship of the safe might be produced for 30l.—a genuine safe of that size fitted up in that manner would be about 82l., but it would be considerably stronger—we should not charge 115l. for it; 82l. would be the net price—I cannot Bay that we sometimes allow 50 or 60 per cent.—the frame in question is a T frame and a solid flange lock, an angle iron set in a solid flange lock case without the claw bolts—ours have not claw bolts in that quality but they have in some qualities—the solid flange lock-case is like ours in general appearance, but is not so strong—Mr. Chatwood is not the company, he is managing director and patentee—I cannot say whether this patent has expired or not, but two or three have; the patent includes the solid flange lock-case, T frame body, and invincible lock; I cannot say which have expired—the strength of the door of one of our safes of the quality of the one in question would be three-eighths of an inch—I said that the thickness of this safe was three-eights of an inch, on the first examination; I only saw it on Friday night and made a hasty examination of it—I say now, after a second examination, that it is full quarter—when I said it was three-eighths thickened up to five-eighths I meant the solid flange lock-case; the lock-case and the door of the safe become one; the lock-case is a plate round the edge of the door, making the edge of the door appear to be five-eighths thick.

Re-examined. The difference between the safes is that the one in question is of thinner material, not so heavy; is not made by machinery; the difference is in the locks and the composition—we mix sawdust with alum; there is less alum in Mr. Carpenter's safe, and we use hard wood and his is soft wood.

WILLIAM GEORGE WHITE . I am an engineer, at 23, Fenchurch Street—in 1872, I was manager in Mr. Chatwood's Depot, in Cannon Street—I remember safe 7,643 being in stock there from Bolton—it was sold to the Fiscal Commission of the Government of Peru.

Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. I sold it myself—I have a list of the safes I sold—it is in Mr. Chatwood's possession, I believe.

GODFREY TUNLEY . I live at Wolvernampton, and am a locksmith—in May, 1876, I was in Mr. Chatwood's service as storekeeper at the depot, in Cannon Street, when Scott was manager and foreman, and Steel as traveller—I had known Wagner some years before that, working at Bolton for the company—in May, 1876, he was in business in the Old Kent Road, under one of the railway arches—he had there different tools for making safes-Scott sent me there once to take a sovereign, and I saw some safes there partly made, not finished—I produce a safe handle which is one of Mr. Chatwoods make—they are not sold unless on safes'—this lock, number 3,407 (produced) is one of Mr. Chatwood's—the key is there—we call the lock a 3 inch till

lock, it is for a wooden drawer, and not made for a safe—these locks were kept in stock at Cannon Street, in pigeon holes, for the purpose of sale-Scott had access to them—this is a blank key, it is not the proper key of that lock—they never make keys to this sort of lock so long as that—this (produced) is the original length of key for that size lock—this was the original key to that lock before that other key was put to it—it is one of Mr. Chatwood's keys, but not of his finishing to the lock—it differs in a slight alteration to the levers inside the lock—it differs from the original one very little—I think it lifts the levers up a little higher—the escutcheon is screwed on outside the safe door—when the escutcheon is put on the original key is not long enough to open it—the key now here attached to the lock is made to open it when the escutcheon is on—the blank key is to show how the keys are sent up from Bolton—we kept blank keys at the stores in a cupboard, and that is one of Mr. Chatwood's—on the back of this escutoheon you will see marked "Chatwood's three till"—the material it is made of is the same as this, evidently showing that this escutcheon is made out of these castings—this escutcheon which was on Mr. Carpenter's safe, is one of Chatwood's genuine escutcheons used for deed chests only, but never for safes—I generally kept the blank keys locked up in a cupboard—this key appears to be made out of a blank—these castings were not for sale at Cannon Street, they were used for making up safe locks only in the workshops—I have seen the safe at Mr. Carpenter's, and took off some of the locks—this handle was put on in my presence and taken off again to show me that it fitted—this lock I did not take off—it was screwed onin my presence and taken off again the same as the handle—the keys wereattached to it—I only took off these two locks—there were three on the drawers, I believe—this is one of Mr. Chatwood's—those locks are never used for anything but drawers—there were locks then missing from four drawers at the depot in Cannon Street—I do not know when they were taken off—this lock seems to have been taken off this drawer—I produce the drawers from Cannon Street, from which evidently the locks have been taken—they are never sold; I have seen Wagner frequently at the stores after and before business hours—as far as I know he had no business there.

Cross-examined by MR. PURCELL. Our men are there after business hours—Wagner was not employed by Mr. Chatwood for repairing safes; I cannot say what authority Scott had to employ men—Wagner did one job there, I believe, repairing two safe drawers.

Cross-examined by Steel. I was in Mr. Chatwood's service as storekeeper, in March, 1876—I cannot possibly say how many town travellers we had at that time—I believe a man named Mills was there at the time; I am not sure; you may have been there in April, but I won't say—I should say you would be there in May—I think Chatwood's brother was there in May—he went out with all deliveries and did odd jobs—I used at one time to act as town traveller and made reports every day which I gave to Mr. Scott, and Winser—I would let three or four days go and then make them out—it was not my duty to enter them in a book—I have seen more than a dozen together waiting to be entered in the book—I had some angry words with Chatwood's brother respecting some flowers that where once taken away—I do not know that I accused him of stealing my tools, I cannot swear; I may have—I never kept my tools in my cupboard.

Cross-examined by MR. MIRAMS. Lots of firms manufacture key blanks, but if you look at these keys I think you will find they are both made by

one workman as near as possible—I do not think you can obtain at Cottrella' in Snow Hill, a blank of the same finish—I have seen theirs lots oftimes and bought them there occasionally when we have not had any in stockI might distinguish the blank of one manufacturer from another if I were to see them together—this blank was manufactured at Bolton—I did not say that Chatwood's work was the best in the kingdom—on an average Cottrella does not finish so nicely as they do at Bolton—I have never had one finished like them—the handles cannot be purchased in London, I believe—I know Carter's, at Bishopsgate—I do not know that Chatwood has purchased handles there—Carter sells all sorts of furniture—this is a Chatwood's handle and this piece is out of the centre more than the other, and the screw is not the same; the finish is not exactly the same—Mr. Chatwood always uses what is called a cheese-cutter headed screw, and that is a castor-sunk head—I know that Mr. Chatwood bought the stock of his company, and it was sold back to the company—I believe Mr. Scott told me himself that he had got all the stock at Cannon Street in his own name—I cannot say whether Scott bought it—I was servant to Mr. Chatwood and at Cannon Street, when Scott was there—I was in Mr. Chatwood's employ; I had an agreement with Scott, he being manager there.

Re-examined. That key is from Mr. Carpenter's and that is the very lock off the safe—on the key there is "Chatwood, 120, Cannon Street, E.C" on one side and "Invincible "on the other—why I say that key is not made by Chatwood, although bearing those words, is because this stamp is ordered for the London shop's use only, but the original key made for this sort of lock is always stamped at Bolton, "Chatwood, Bolton" on one side, and "Chatwood's Invincibles "on the other—there is not the least doubt that that is made out of the same blank as this—the two handles do not come from the same pattern and the heads of the screws are different—I did not fit the key produced to the lock.

By MR. MIRAMS. I always made the extra keys in London—I never made that—Mr. Scott would give me the orders—I have no recollection ofthat key—I swear I did not do it.

WILLIAM GEORGE WHITE (re-examined). It was my duty to see the books properly kept, in December, 1871—they were kept under my superintendence—(referring to a book) safe number 7,643 was sold at that time to the Fiscal Commission of Peru, London—I superintended its delivery in Broad Street; first floor—we charged them so much a month for the use of it—they objected to it and I sold it to them for 63l. 17s. 6d. receiving 50l. 3s. 6d., the difference being for commission to the gentleman who introduced the purchaser—I have not been down to Middleborough—I have been to Mr. Carpenter's it is not the 7,643 safe—Carpenter's is two sizes larger than the one I sold, which was number 18—Mr. Carpenter's would be about number 20—it is not a Chatwood's safe, and I should think not fire-proof.

Cross-examined by MA MIRAMS. I have not placed a value on Mr. Carpenter's safe—I was at one time desirous of purchasing a safe of that size and went down to Greenwich with Mr. Nevill to see it, but was refused—I was allowed afterwards to see it.

Cross-examined by Steel. I bought a second-hand safe of Mr. Chatwood, and paid him 30l. for it—I did not tell you in Neville's presence that I sold that safe for 100l.—I never made such a remark—Mr. Chatwood bought a patent of me and paid me several bills for it.

SAMUEL CHATWOOD . I was manufacturer of safes, at Bolton, before the

formation of "Chatwood and Co., Limited"—I first began the manufacture of safes nearly twenty years ago—my first patent was dated 1860—a limited company was formed for carrying on the business in 1863, from which time I occupied the position of general manager up to the time of my meeting with a railway accident at the end of 1868, when I was obliged to relinquish the office, and I was away from the business—I was appointed managing director again in 1874 I think—the depot in Cannon Street first came into existence, I think, in 1868, which I believe was first on the company's own account entirely, and afterwards I took the entire responsibility of the commercial part of the business, and the company supplied the safes to me on sale or return—they remained the property of the company until after they were sold, and an account sale was rendered regularly to the company of the parties' names to whom they were sold—I was responsible to the company for the debts, and out of that I paid all commercial charges not only in London but in Bolton, Manchester, and everywhere else—I got a commission on the amount of business done—the people employed in London were at one time the company's servants, and at another time my servants—I think that would be about 1870—in August, 1874, I suspended payment—when I resumed payment I entered into this agreement with Scott—this is the original. (This was dated 14th January, 1876, between Samuel Chatwood, of Bolton-le-Moor, and James Henry Scott, appointing Scott agent in London.) Books were kept at Cannon Street, in which sales were entered—it was Scott's duty to make reports daily by post to me at Bolton of everything that was sold—I had on one or two occasions taken safes back of my own manufacture—Scott was competent to take safes back of my own manufacture in part payment for others, allowing a suitable price for them—that was reported to me and entered in the books—I never gave permission to Scott or knew of his selling second-hand safes without communicating the circumstance to me—I have seen this safe of Mr. Carpenter's—I practically superintend the manufactory at Bolton—the safe in question was not manufactured at Bolton, or anywhere as a Chatwood's patent safe—in the first place it is not fire-proof; it is not of the same strength as those of my make; and not strong as our number 3 quality—the material is not of the same strength—the lock is not a safe lock; it was manufactured at my place, but it is one of very ordinary wooden drawer locks, a cabinet drawer, and the lock called a Lord's lock is a common lock of the same make—the safe is not burglar-proof or fire-proof—it is manufactured by hand; we manufacture ours by machinery—this is not my escutheon, but it is made out of the castings at my establishment—they are for use for 3-inch till locks—we never sell them—I have my books here—no communication was made to me by Scott or anybody else as to this safe at Mr. Carpenter's, neither is there any entry of it in the books—Wagner came into my employ at Bolton six or seven years ago, and left it three or four years ago, I cannot fix my memory—in August last I met Wagner near St. Paul's Churchyard—I told him that I was afraid he bad led Scott into mischief by inducing him to sell new safes of his manufacture as second-hand ones of my manufacture—I said "What right had you to sell one of your new safes to Carpenter, the pawnbroker, as one of my second-hand safes?"—he said "Scott sold it, not me"—he said that he had received 40l. for it, that he had not madethe whole of it, but part of it, and that it was made in London; that Scott had not sold a dozen of his safes altogether, and that it was a small matter, and to prove that, he would call at my hotel the next morning with

bis book to show me that was so—he did not call, but shortly after that I met him in the Old Kent Road and asked him where he got the locks from on Carpenter's safe—he said "Oh, I got them; do you charge me with stealing them?"—I said "No, I do not, but I am afraid they have been stolen from my establishment;"—he said "I didn't put the locks on myself, but they were on when I delivered the safe"—I never authorised those locks being used or the escutcheons being put on—I was informed by the housekeeper that Wagner was in the habit of going to Cannon Street—I did not know for what purpose—Steel first entered my employ about eighteen months ago as town traveller, and occasionally to collect monies, and he would have to report in writing to Scott what he had done—I told Steel that I had ascertained from Mr. Carpenter that he had received payment for a safe in Mr. Carpenter's shop at Deptford, and asked how it came that he had received that money without reporting it in his daily return sheet—he said that he had received it after business hours and had forgotten it—I think I spoke to him about it more than once—the body of this receipt is Steel's writing—he told me himself that he had written that—when cheques were received on account of the business it was Scott's duty, having charge of the cash, to pay them either to me by post to Bolton, or to my account at the bank—I had no knowledge of this cheque for 18l. 3s. 3d., neither does any entry of it appear in my books.

Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. I am managing director—there are directors and articles of association—the directors live at Bolton, they do not come to London to see after the business at all—I am managing director at Bolton, but the London business is carried on on my own account, as agent for the company; all expenditure is in my name—in May, Scott was my servant, I being a great deal at Bolton, he had the control when I was away; he has never had a successor in the same office—I have taken the greater share of the control—I separated my connection with him at the end of July or the beginning of August—I made a complaint at the Mansion House; I knew of this matter at that time—the proceeding was not withdrawn and a sort of reference had; it was not as to this case at all—Mr. Martin was my solicitor, but not in connection with these prosecutions—it was not proposed that he should go through the books and matters and adjudicate between us—the proceedings with reference to this case were never started—I said that I had made a complaint at the Mansion House, but I had not taken proceedings with reference to this—I believe that an information had been preferred in Carpenter's case, and the matter taken to the Mansion House, but nothing was done in the matter—I do not think a summons was applied for; I think it simply dropped there on Mr. Gresham giving an opinion that the evidence laid in the information was not quite sufficient; and Scott not coming forward as promised to give an explanation, I apprehended him on the charge of embezzling 17l.—I dropped those proceedings at the earnest request of Scott's friends—I did not urge upon Scott that he should go out of London and not set up in business; what was done is in writing—a memorandum was prepared by Mr. Martin, a solicitor, on Scott's behalf, and Mr. Moojen, a solicitor, came to toy office and urged me—I dropped the proceedings and withdrew that charge—I did not then urge upon Scott that he should go out of London or out of the country—I said that I could not consent to withdraw the charge which I made at the Mansion House, of embezzling 17l., and make that a matter of account, without first protecting the public against such frauds by the improper use of

my name, which was to be done by his earning his living where he could not make use of the name of Chatwood—I did not propose he should go out of the country, but that he should not have anything to do with the safe trade directly or indirectly in Great Britain, because in that trade he could use my name—that was before his release—he set up a business in Walbrook; I do not know when—I believe he has a desk in an office there, he set up there—I have not taken these present proceedings; I should think they were taken about two or three months ago—I will not swear that I had nothing to do with their being taken—I supplied all the information to Mr. Carpenter—I will swear I did not propose to pay the expenses—I want to speak the truth—what I did say was this; Mr. Carpenter said "Mr. Chatwood, I have been defrauded by your servants in your establishment, you ought to stand by me"—I said "If my servants have defrauded you bring the matter home, and then come and talk to me," but I did not undertake to pay Carpenter's costs—it was about February we had that conversation; I am not sure—why I did not stand by Carpenter in August was that the accounts were in such a complicated state—there are piles of frauds and falisfication of my books, and I determined to put my books in the hands of an accountant and wait the result before taking any proceedings—I did not proceed with the pile of cases then instead of standing by Carpenter, because you cannot push professional men along very fast—on withdrawing from the charge of embezzling 17l. which was before the Court, I reserved to myself liberty of action, but Scott's friends assured me that there was no fraud, and if I would take a merciful view of the thing everything else could be explained and made out to my entire satisfaction, and he has never been to explain a single item—I regarded them as part of a system of fraud which I had employed an accountant to unravel—I did not draw up a document for the purpose of preferring a claim myself; Mr. Martin drew something up on a piece of note paper in my presence; I am not sure, but I think in my presence—the solicitor who was acting for Scott did not decline to sign it or have anything to do with it because it would be compromising a felony—I declined to sign it—I do not think any one else was present with me when Mr. Martin drew it up; he did not draw it up at my dictation; he had the writing of it as a personal friend of Scott's—I think it was in Mr. Martin's office—I said if the terms Mr. Martin put down were faithfully carried out, and when Scott was released from prison he would explain things, the matter would drop, but failing that, I reserved my liberty of action—I feel myself quite at liberty to proceed with the pile of charges I have against Scott, quite independently of this transaction.

Cross-examined by MR. PURCELL. I was not on bad terms with Wagner till I found out his delinquencies—I am not aware that he said he could open any one of my locks in twenty minutes—I know all the persons that Scott would be entitled to employ, but when he employed persons sureptitiously I did not know; he may have employed people without my knowledge, I being 200 miles away, either to convey safes or to effect alterations in them.

Cross-examined by MA KEOGH. Steel entered my service about eighteen months ago; I did not engage him myself; I do not remember authorising my service about twelve months when that letter, dated 18th August, 1876, anyone to write to him before he entered my service; I think he had been in was written—I think he was in my service in the winter of 1875—I am not sure whether any trace can be found in the books of when he did enter

my service—I have not the petty cash-book in Court; the principal business books are here, the ledger and day-book—Scott was the manager of the London branch—Steel was not bound to do whatever Scott told him—he was under Scott's instructions.

Re-examined. A person who had been in my employ as Steel had, would know, on looking at this safe, whether it was one of mine or not; it would be apparent to any ordinary observer.

RICHARD CARPENTER (re-examined). The receipt was given to me about 6 o'clock—my place closes from 6 o'clock to 6.30.

GEORGE SOMERS CARPENTER . I am the son of Mr. Carpenter—I remember a safe being brought to our premises last May—I had seen Scott before it was brought; Wagner came with it and I directed the men to fit it in, and he came two or three times afterwards, and on one occasion took away the drawers of the safe to have some iron partitions put in them—when it was brought there was no escutcheon on it—he brought it afterwards and took it out of his pocket, if I remember rightly, and put it on; I think I should recognise the one he put on, that is it (produced)—I asked him why it had not the name of Chatwood inside, the same as the one at Dockhead—he told me it had been re-painted—I saw Wagner with some keys when he brought the safe, the keys to the drawers and the outside door; he tried them all in—Steel was there when the safe was brought—I think Wagner fitted the escutcheon on.

Scott and Wagner received good characters.


SCOTT— Eighteen Months' Imprisonment . WAGNER— Six Months' Imprisonment.


9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-397
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude; Imprisonment

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397. RICHARD WINCH (21), and SAMUEL COX (45) , Stealing 8 cwt. of lead, the property of the Mayor and Commonalty of London, fixed to a building.

MR. MEAD conducted the Prosecution; and MR. STRAIGHT defended Cox.

GEORGE PHILCOX . I am superintendent of the Foreign Cattle Market at Deptford, which belongs to the Corporation of London—there are several stables there, one adjoining a timber yard in Prince's Street—on 1st March I saw that some lead had been taken from it, and on Saturday morning, the 3rd, some more was gone.

SAMUEL GRIMES . I am a constable at the Foreign Cattle Market—on Saturday, 3rd March, between 11 and 12 o'clock, I found that about 10 cwt of lead, worth about 10l., had been taken from the stable—I afterwards cempared some lead shown me by the constable with that On the roof, and it tallied—Cox was employed at the Cattle Market that morning as a labourer.

JOHN ENTICLOCK . I am a timber merchant in Prince's Street, Deptford—my yard adjoins the stables in question—on Sunday, 25th February, I noticed that some lead had been taken from the roof, and between 1st and 3rd March I noticed that a further quantity had been taken.

WILLIAM NEWMAN . I am a watchman in the employment of Mr. Tripp, a linendraper, at Blackheath, and live in Prince's Street, Deptford—on Saturday, 3rd March, at 6.30 a.m., I was in New King Street, returning home, and saw Winch come out of Tinpot Alley with a lime of lead on his shoulder, partly wrapped up in a bit of wrapper—he crossed the road into Cox's house, it is something of the kind of a marine store dealer's; the shop door was open, but the shutters were not down—I did not speak to him,

but he said "All right, old man"—I did not bear of this case till 15th March, when I went to the police-court and identified Winch.

Cross-examined. Cox's shop is in New King Street, about 150 yards from the Cattle Market.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner Winch. I could see it was lead that you had, one end was out; I was not able to judge what quantity there was.

GEORGE BECKWITH (Policeman R 274). On 3rd March, in consequence of information, I went with Francis, another officer, to Cox's shop—I saw Mrs. Cox and had some conversation with her—I looked behind the counter and under it I found three bags containing lead concealed under a quantity of rags—I sent Francis to fetch Cox, who came; he made some motion to his wife, and then sitting on the stairs he said "Did not I buy this lead of a man named Smith?"—she said "Yes, you did, and you know nothing at all about it"—I asked him for a description of Smith—he said "A tall, big man, four or five inches taller than myself"—Francis said he would charge him with receiving the lead, knowing it to be stolen, and took him to the station—I afterwards went to 20, Old King Street, where Winch lives; I found him in bed, about 11 o'clock—I told him I wanted him to come to the station with me, I did not tell him what for—he got up and dressed himself and accompanied me part of the way till we got to the stable where the lead was stolen from, he looked up and smiled—I said "Cox tells me he has not paid you for it"—he said "If Cox has said so, it is a d——lie, he paid me 3s. 4d. for it"—I took him to the station, where he was seen by Mr. and Mrs. Cox—Cox said he was the man—Mrs. Cox said to the best of her belief he was—he made no reply—I have seen the prisoners in company on many occasions—I weighed the lead, there was 2 cwt. I qr. 8 lbs.; I took a portion of it to the Cattle Market and compared it with the roof and it tallied.

THOMAS FRANCIS (Detective Officer R). I went and fetched Cox—I said "You will have to come with me to your shop, as we have found some lead there"—he said "Very well"—I asked who he bought it of—he said "I don't know"—I said "Have you made any entry in your book?"—he said "No, I have not a book"—I said "You must know who you bought itof"—he said "I bought it of a man named Smith"—I asked for a description of the man, and he said "A big, tall chap, 4 or 5 inches taller than me"—I asked him what time he bought it—he said "About 8 o'clock this morning"—I afterwards asked how much he had given for it—he said "15s. a cwt.—I said "How much is there?"—he said "About 2 cwt."—Winch was afterwards brought in—Cox said "That is the man I bought it of, I have not paid you for it, have I?"—Winch said "No"—Mrs. Cox said "To the best of my belief that is the man that brought it in."


Winch also PLEADED GUILTY to a previous conviction at Greenwich, in August, 1875, and other convictions were proved against him.

WINCH— Seven Years' Penal Servitude . COX— Eighteen Months' Imprisonment.


Before Robert Malcolm Kerr, Esq.

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-398
VerdictsGuilty > pleaded guilty

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398. JOHN SAWISKI (17) , PLEADED GUILTY to forging and uttering an order for 9l. 10s., also to breaking and entering the office of the London and Manchester Insurance Company, and stealing orders for the payment of 12s. 7d., 11s. 3d., and 17s. 3d.— Eighteen Months' Imprisonment .

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-399
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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399. JOSEPH LARDNER (19) , to forging and uttering bills of exchange for 31l. 18s. 8d. 45l. 18s. 4d., 28l. 18s. 5d. 42l. 13s. 4d., and 45l. 7s. 4d.— Recommended to mercy on account of his youth— Twelve Months' Imprisonment. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-400
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceNo Punishment > sentence respited

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400. ELIZABETH BAILEY (31) , to unlawfully endeavouring to conceal the the birth of her child— Judgment Respited.[Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.] And

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-401
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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401. JAMES WELLS (18) , to stealing a watch, having been previously convicted of felony— Eighteen Months' Imprisonment. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-402
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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402. ROBERT WILLIAMS (35) , Maliciously inflicting grievous bodily harm upon Sarah Willmore.

MR. DE MICHELE conducted the Prosecution.

SARAH WILLMORE . I live at Mary Ann's Place, Union Street, Borough—my husband is a carman—on 4th April, I was with my sister in the New Cut, about 11 a.m.—I saw a crowd which we tried to avoid, in front of a butcher's shop—the prisoner came and kicked me in my right side and struck me on the right side of my face—I fell down and became insensible and do not know any more—I have been under medical treatment—the prisoner is a stranger to me.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. You were rolling about and trying to get the butcher's knives—I did not speak to you—I have marks on me—I never had fits before—it would not take much to knock me down.

Re-examined. I have had fits since.

CHARLOTTE WILLMORE . I was with my sister and saw the prisoner kick her into the road, and strike her in the face—she fell down; I picked her up.

Cross-examined. We were not standing, we were walking along.

ELIZABETH PENDLE . I live at 31, Broad Street, Cornwall Road—I was walking down the New Cut, and I saw the prisoner kick the female—I saw her fall—the prisoner is a stranger to me—I helped to pick the girl up.

JOHN ROBERTS , M.R.C.S. I live at 73, Salcott Bridge Road—I attended the prosecutrix on the Wednesday afternoon, she was unconscious and was suffering from a contusion at the back of the head, which would be caused by a fall on the pavement or by a blow—she has not had fits since—she complained of numbness in her right side in the region of the hip, and a stiffness in the muscles round her head.

Cross-examined. There were no marks on her face, only on the back of her head.

WILLIAM AVIS (Policeman R 10). I received information and went to the New Cut, and took the prisoner in custody—he was very violent and said "God blind me, you don't take me"—he kicked me twice on the thigh—three other constables assisted and we took him in what is called "a frogmarch" to the station.

Cross-examined. I did not throw you down till you kicked me.

PRISONERS DEFENCE . I was very drunk. It was quite an accident.

GUILTY Twelve Months' Imprisonment.

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-403
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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403. THOMAS JOSEPH CAINE (33), and MARY YORK (25) , unlawfully inflicting grievous bodily harm on Catherine Montague.

MR. DE MICHELE conducted the Prosecution.

CATHERINE MONTAGUE . I live at 25a, Cowper Street, Waterloo Road my husband is a printer—on March 20th, about 2 a.m. I was in bed and heard the prisoner singing and dancing on the next floor—I called my little boy out of bed and sent him up—he cried out for me—I went upstairs and Caine came out on the landing and used bad language, and kicked me in the

lower part of my body; I fell on the stairs—York stood with a candle on the landing—I Jay on the stairs some time and she took me by my hair and threw me downstairs—I was taken to the hospital at about 4.45 and was brought back at 7.20 that morning—I have since had the parish doctors attending me.

Cross-examined by Caine. My husband's name is Montague—you were in your shirt sleeves.

PHILIP MONTAGUE . I am the son of the last witness—I was awoke up by this singing and dancing—I went upstairs and asked the prisoners to make less noise—Caine said that if I did not get down he would kick me down the b——stairs—I went away and mother came up, and he kicked her in the back and afterwards I saw York take hold of my mother by her hair and throw her downstairs.

Cross-examined by Caine. Mary York opened the door, and I then saw you dancing; I stood on the landing, you came out and Mary York stood in the doorway—the landing is very small—Mary York had a candle in her hand—there is no window on the landing—two people could not pass on the stairs without turning—my father and mother quarrelled on Saturday morning, but not on the Sunday—the window has been broken a long time.

Cross-examined by York. There was no light till you brought one—there was a fire in our room.

FREDERICK DENNIS (Policeman L 23). I went to this house about 11.30 on this morning—the prosecutor was in bed in great agony—I went upstairs and found the prisoners, I told them the prosecutraix had complained of being assaulted by them and took" them down to her room, and in their presence she accused Caine of having kicked her, and York of having taken her by the hair and thrown her downstairs—Caine said "I was in bed at the time and she burst my door open, and I did nothing"—I took them to the station and afterwards saw the doctor at the hospital.

Cross-examined by Caine. I do not recollect your asking the boy Phillips any questions about your being dressed—I was on duty in the morning—the other constable is not here.

ELIZABETH JOHNSQN . I lived in this house, but have moved about a fortnight to 21, Chatham Street, Walworth, on account of the bother—the prisoners came home the worse for drink and called for a light, I gave York one—she asked my daughter to fetch her a 1d. candle, I said she could not—she asked me to have some bacca—Caine then told her to go to bed, and I put the candle out to prevent fire—they went to bed—between 3 and 4 o'clock, Mrs. Montague came home and rattled the door and asked for a light and made a great noise—I said "If there is any grievance between you and Liza settle it in the morning"—she used a bad word and sent the door in—I then heard scuffling, but did not see her again—my husband would not let me go to her—she is fond of fighting and tearing.

Cross-examined by Caine. I did not hear any singing or dancing.

Caine's Defence. The prosecutrix came home drunk and made the disturbance.

York's Defence. The prosecutrix burst open my door, and I tried to prevent her coming in; there was no light.


Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-404
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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404. CHARLES KIMPTON (56) , PLEADED GUILTY to unlawfully obtaining goods on credit within four months of his bankruptcy— Four Months' Imprisonment.

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-405
VerdictMiscellaneous > unfit to plead
SentenceImprisonment > insanity

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405. THOMAS GEORGE PYLE (30) , Unlawfully wounding Jane Cooper and inflicting grievous bodily harm. It appearing on the evidence of John Rowland Gibson, surgeon of Newgate, and William Bull, George Simpson, John Anderson, and Thomas Henry Waterworth, surgeons, the Jury found the prisoner of unsound mind and unable to plead— To be detained during Her Majesty's pleasure.

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-406
VerdictGuilty > with recommendation

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406. WILLIAM SNOOKS (32) , Embezzling 10s., 5s., and other sums, the property of John Chalmers, and others, his masters.

MR. BESLEY conducted the Prosecution; and MR. LYON the Defence.

JAMES WATTS . I am a member of the Friendly Society of Stone Masons, South London Branch, who hold their meetings at a Tavern, in Westminster Bridge Road—I am one of the masons working at the New Law Courts—this is my card of membership—on 5th February, in the prisoner's presence I paid 4s. to Moss, the other shop steward—the card was returned to me within a week signed as it is now.

Cross-examined. I have belonged to this society since March, 1873—I purchased the card from the secretary, John Tremble, I am an officer of the society, I have always paid my subscriptions to Snooks—the money is received by Moss, and Snooks takes the card—they stand side by side; I saw the 4s. handed to Snooks—the entry "4s." and the word "Clear" are written on the card at the same time, and then the card is returned.

WILLIAM MOSS . I was fellow shop steward with the prisoner, I attended at the New Law Courts, to receive subscriptions on behalf of our lodge—on February 5th, I received 4s. from Watts, and gave the money to the prisoner whose duty was to check the money, I received by the cards that Were handed in—it is afterwards entered in a book.

Cross-examined. I was appointed steward in September, because the prisoner wanted assistance; I was present at the lodge.

WILLIAM NEAL . I am a member of this society—on February 12th, I was a shop steward at the New Law Courts, and paid the prisoner 5s.; I gave him my card the following Monday—it was given back to me a week after marked "February 12th, 5s. clear "as it is now.

Cross-examined. I saw the prisoner mark in a book; I had forgotten my card.

ALLAN BLYTHEN . I am a member of this society, and work at the New Law Courts—I paid 10s. to the prisoner on 19th February, I gave him my card and he returned it on the Monday, marked as it is now "19th February, 10s. clear."

JOHN TREMBLE . I live at 7, James Street, Lower Marsh, Lambeth, and have been a member of this lodge four years—the prisoner has been a member four or five years—I was appointed secretary in June, 1876—the prisoner was then shop steward at the New Law Courts—we had 100 members there—the prisoner took the member's subscriptions—he had no right to sign the card, the secretary does that—he had a book called the shop steward's book to make his entries in—our society meets on Saturday and Monday evenings—the prisoner ought to attend at one of those meetings and report and pay the money to the treasurer—I then put the men's names in my book and sign the cards—the treasurer enters the money opposite the member's number—we then compare books—the prisoner never presented the cards for the 4s., 10s., or 5s. paid by the previous witnesses—Mr. Chalmers is our president—the prisoner received commission on the

sums he accounted for—the receipt for 2l. 8s. 6d. signed by the prisoner is for commission—I have not the commission-book—in consequence of something occuring on March 5th, the prisoner was discharged from his office—that was at a meeting of the society—I afterwards received a letter from him.

Cross-examined. I have never seen the prisoner write his signature; I laid his letter before the lodge meeting and recommended them to deal leniently with him—they decided to prosecute as he would not speak—nothing passed between me and the prisoner with reference to his paying the money by instalments—there is a rule permitting that to be done—I had an interview with him about his defalcations and I said that I must bring it before the lodge—he said he was sorry—he paid me 17s. 4d. which he received from, a member—there was a second lodge meeting about it—I was present, but cannot say what took place—we decided by a majority to prosecute.

Re-examined. When I recommended the society to deal leniently with him I only knew of one case—others were afterwards discovered.

WILLIAM MOBLEY . I am the treasurer of this society—I attended the meetings on the lodge nights of the 5th, 12th, and 19th February—the prisoner reported monies received on each of those nights and paid in money—neither the 4s., 5s., nor the 10s. was reported—the 2l. 8s. 6d. was paid as commission to the stewards for monies accounted for.

Cross-examined. I saw the prisoner write that receipt—the commission is 6d. in the 1l. on 28l. 10s.—I was present when the lodge decided to prosecute by vote—I voted—the president put the question.

JOHN CHALMERS . I was president of this society up to within a fortnight ago—I have now gone out of office—I have belonged to it sixteen years—I was present at the meetings in February—I had nothing to do with the monies—I remember the prisoner being appointed shop steward—the lodge decided to prosecute him by vote.

Cross-examined. We keep a minute-book—it is not here—I put the question as to the prosecution of the prisoner to the lodge, from eighty to one hundred members were present—the vote was unanimous—this is the first prosecution I have had to deal with.

GUILTY. Recommended to mercy Six Months' Imprisonment.

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-407
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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407. GEORGE BROWN (40) , Forging and uttering two orders, for the payment of 6s. 6d., and 6s. with intent to defraud.

MR. BESLEY and MR. TICKELL conducted the Prosecution; and MR. C.

MATHEWS the Defence.

JOHN WILLIAM PAY . I live at 72, Lenthall Road, Dalston—I was mate of the Concordia, on Saturday, 10th May—the prisoner was one of the seamen—on that day I missed two labour-notes from the book in my cabin, numbers 96 and 98—the prisoner had the watch on the Saturday—he "had the Sunday off—I missed him from the vessel on Monday at noon—he had no right to be away then—I saw him on Tuesday morning and told him not to commence duty again as he had left the ship on Monday—the orders produced are similar to those I lost—they correspond with the counterfoils.

Cross-examined. I was in the ship till 7 o'clock on Saturday—the prisoner's watch lasted from that time till 10 o'clock on the Sunday morning—the prisoner's wife came on board—I cannot say if any one else did—the prisoner came on board on Monday morning, at 10 o'clock, and remained till noon—I did not see him go off, I made enquiries—the prisoner is in the naval reserve—I know nothing against his character; I do not know what the

effect of a conviction would be upon his pension—I did not find the cabin broken open—the tickets must have been stolen while I was on board—my duties are on deck—I always keep my cabin locked—the orders come from the ship Falcon.

Re-examined. My cabin was not locked on this occasion.

ESTHER ADELAIDE DEAN . My husband keeps the Red Lion, public-house in Horseley down Lane—the prisoner brought these tickets on a Saturday evening—I cannot give the date—he gave them to my husband I paid the prisoner 12s. 6d. on them.

Cross-examined. I am in the habit of cashing these tickets, anyone may present them—I send them to the company's office and get paid—I had not seen the prisoner before.

ALFRED HUDSON . I am mate of the ship Falcon, belonging to the Steam Navigation Company—the prisoner is not employed on the Falcon—the signature "Hudson "is not mine—I make out similar orders for men who work for me—I do not know a Mr. Wilson—I have not missed any orders.

Cross-examined. No one has any right to make tickets out in my name or to employ men.

GEORGE FOULGER (Policeman M 125). I took the prisoner on March 13th, at the Red Lion—on being charged he said he had not been in the house before and that he could produce the man who gave him the tickets—he did not say who the man was.

Cross-examined. The prisoner was drunk when I took him.

JOHN BENDALL . I am an inspector of the General Steam Navigation Company—I received these tickets on 13th March, and the prisoner's description—I saw him the same morning at St. Katherine's wharf—after that I went to 45, Queen Street, Spa Road, Bermondsey, and went with the prisoner from there to the Red Lion, Horseleydown Road, and saw Mrs. Dean who identified him—the prisoner said "I was never in this house before"—he was not sober—he was taken to the station and the charge was read over to him—he said "I can produce the party I had them from"—the mate of the Falcon is Hudson—these tickets are equal to bank-notes.

Cross-examined. I have heard that he bears an excellent character, but I do not know—he is in the naval reserve and a man does not go there till he has served fifteen years, and bears a good character—his pension is 12l. a year—I know nothing against his character—the company will not suffer from this offence.

JOHN WILLIAM PAY (re-examined). I left the ship on Monday night between 6 and 7 o'clock and returned early the next morning in time to get the ship alongside the wharf by 6 o'clock.


9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-408
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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408. ALBERT HODGES (38) , Unlawfully conspiring with other persons, not in custody, to obtain a watch from Thomas Marsh, with intent to defraud. (See page 482).

MR. MEAD conducted the Prosecution; and MR. M. WILLIAMS the Defence.

THOMAS MARSH . I am a jeweller, of High Street, Dorking—in July last I had a watch, value 16l., which I wished to dispose of, and advertised it in he "Exchange, Bazaar, and Mart"—I afterwards received this letter, signed "A. Hodges," and a card was enclosed "A. W. Hodges, wine and spirit merchant, St. George's Stores, Newington Causeway"—I wrote an answer to that letter asking him to send a cheque fur the amount, and stating that I would hold it over till he had an opportunity of approving of the watch—

I afterwards received this letter "Sir,—Kindly say per return if we can do business"—I wrote another letter to the same effect as the first and received a reply and this cheque (produced), upon which I sent the watch by registered post—I paid the cheque into my bankers a few days afterwards and it was returned endorsed "Signature irregular"—on September 6th I received this letter. (This stated that the watch was not worth more than 71., and that the signature to the cheque sent was not that of Mr. Collins, as it would never do to commit forgery, and that the man who gave the writer the blank cheque had decamped with the watch, and instructions had been given to the police, it expressed a hope that within a few days the watch or money would be forth coming.) I came up to town on 8th August, went to the place described on the card, and saw the prisoner—I said "I have called about the cheque"—he said "Another has been sent"—I said "I have been away for a few days and it may be at home"—I went home, but found no cheque or letter—on 3rd September I came to town again, went to the police-station, and then went with Sergeant Bell to the prisoner's place—I stated "I have called about the watch and cheque"—he said "I have not had it; Lamb had it and he will see to it and send the money—I allowed him to use my name and address"—I had never heard the name of Lamb before—he said "I gave Lamb the watch at the police-station"—next day I applied for a warrant against Hodges at the police-court, which was granted—he was admitted to bail for a week, and on the next occasion did not appear—I have never received the watch, cheque, or money.

Cross-examined. I keep a shop—this was a more expensive watch than I could sell.

ROBERT BELL (Police Sergeant M). On 3rd September I went with Marsh to St. George's Stores, Newington Causeway, and saw Hodges behind the bar—I told him we had come in reference to a watch which had been obtained from Barking by means of a cheque, which had been returned—he said "A man named Lamb wrote for the watch and asked me to allow him to use the sign of our house and the name, and I gave him consent to do so, I am very sorry I did; I knew Lamb would not send the amount and that the cheque was wrong; I afterwards received a parcel by post and opened it in the presence of the postman, and saw that it was a gold watch; I kept it and Lamb called for it once or twice, but I would not give it to him; I then took it across to the police-station, and the inspector gave it up to Lamb"—I mentioned about the cheque being returned and asked him where it was—he said he had given it to his master—I asked him who his master was—he said "Mr. Thompson, a coachman, of 5, Prince's Square"—I went there and saw Mr. Thompson and he gave me a cheque—I then went before the Magistrate, who issued a warrant—at the second hearing Palmer was a witness—he was afterwards tried with Lamb, and Lamb pleaded guilty.

Cross-examined. The prisoner said to Marsh "You will have the money, I have seen the person, and no doubt he will send you the money, probably to-night or to-morrow; it was very silly perhaps of me, it was rather a curious affair, as he was not in possession of any money and could not give a cheque; that is the reason I would not give him up the watch"—I went to Mr. Thompson and received the cheque from him, and the letter. The prisoner was behind the bar managing the public-house for the landlord"—he used to pay so much a week to Mr. Thompson—I have known him as a publican before—he used to keep the Peacock—Palmer was tried for conspiracy—he was convicted on another charge, and they did not proceed

upon this one—it had nothing to do with this case—they gave him eighteen months—there were about forty other cases against him of obtaining meat and other articles by cheques.

HENRY MICHAEL LAMB . I am in custody under a sentence of three months' imprisonment. (See page 496). I went to Hodges' place in July and saw him—I had a copy of the "Bazaar, Exchange, and Mart," and my attention was called to Mr. Marsh's advertisement—I said to Hodges "There is a watch here advertised; you were speaking about one the other day"—he took the paper from me and read the advertisement and said "Write and get the particulars"—I then wrote the letter produced and enclosed this card from Hodges—on the 11th of July I wrote this other letter with Hodges' knowledge and authority, because the first letter came to him—I wrote them both in his presence, and I wrote other letters—he afterwards showed me a letter from Mr. Marsh, upon which it was proposed that a cheque should be sent—he said that he had not got a cheque-book—I thought I could get one from Palmer, the butcher—I went to see Palmer and explain the matter to him—I went back and told Hodges that Palmer would agree to get me a cheque; he had not got one of his own, but would get one from Clements, the milkman, of Vauxhall—Palmer said "Well, I suppose Hodges will stand 10s. for the trouble?"—I said "I will ask him"—I asked the prisoner, and he said "I will give it"—it was arranged that when the watch came it should be pawned and the money handed back to Palmer, the butcher; and if it did not realise 16l. it was to be given to him, so as to meet the cheque on the Monday morning, and Palmer was to take the money to the bank and get the cheque—Hodges was to make up the difference—I afterwards went to Palmer's and from there to Clements', the milkman, who was not at home—I then called on Collins, a butcher, in Wands-worth Road—Palmer went in and got two blank cheques—I did not see who gave them to him, as I did not go in, but he came out with the cheques, and we went to his house, where be put them on the table—I went to Hodges the same day; I filled the cheque in in Hodges' presence, and signed it "J. Collins," and sent it—I had no authority to do so, but Collins would not have known anything about it if the cheque had been taken up at the time—I had seen Collins before—I was at Hodges' when the watch came, we examined it; he put it in his pocket—we went into the bar parlour and spoke to Mr. Thompson—he stayed some time—I called him out and said "Am I to take the watch to realise, and see what it is worth?"—he said "No"—Mr. Thompson then said said something in the bar about retaining it—I said "If you are going to do that how about the cheque; I shall get into trouble about it?'—Thompson said "Do not give it up"—I said "Then we will go the police-station," which we did, Hodges taking the watch—we saw Inspector Page; I said very little, but Hodges made a speech—Hodges afterwards took the watch to a pawnbroker in the Blackfriars Road—I did not go in, but he told me 4l. was offered for it, which he declined to take—I then went to another pawnbroker and pawned it for 5l—I took the money to Hodges—he said "I shall not meet the cheque, as you can only get 5l. on it"—I said "Very well, it will make a very bad job for me; you owe me a certain amount of money; there is the balance; I shall stop it—I handed him over 50s. I think, but I am not certain; it was over 2l.—I afterwards saw in the paper that Hodges was in custody, and I wrote a letter to Inspector Page—I was taken in custody, committed for trial—I pleaded guilty.

Cross-examined. I do not know what I PLEADED GUILTY to, forgery or fake pretences—it was I who suggested to see Collins—when I first saw the watch advertised I intended to obtain it by borrowing some other person's cheque and signing some other person's name, and if the watch fetched 16l. to meet the cheque with the money, but there was nothing about if it fetched more; if it fetched less I was to make up the difference; that was my intention and Hudges' intention—we had no intention of defrauding anybody.

By THE COURT. I suppose Hodges really wanted a gold repeater—no profit was to be made out of the transaction, and the watch was to become Hodges' property—he had signified his intention of getting a watch some weeks before.

Re-examined. I was in custody five months before my trial, which was mentioned to the Judge before I was sentenced.

WALTER BROWN . I am in the service of James Collins, a butcher, of the Wandsworth Road—in July last, Palmer, who I knew before and who knew my master quite well, called and asked if the governor was in—I said "No, he has gone to the City"—he asked to borrow two blank cheques, and I gave him two out of Mr. Collins' book—somebody who I did not know, was with him.

JOSEPH PAGE (Police Sergeant M). On 21st July, Lamb and Hodges came to the station—Hodges had a watch in his hand as he came to the window and said "Here is a watch I have received by post"—Lamb said "Yes, it is a watch he has received, and we have had a dispute about it, about giving it up, he is willing to give it up now"—Lamb said "It was advertised in the 'Bazaar' paper, I answered the advertisement, and it was arranged that the watch should be sent for me through Hodges, it is all right, I have sent a cheque for the amount"—Hodges said nothing further—I told him I should have nothing to do with it—Hodges took up the watch and they walked away together.

Cross-examined. I knew Hodges before.

JAMES COLLINS . I am a butcher—Brown is in my employment—in July last I had an account with the London Discount Alliance, Limited—this cheque is out of my book, it corresponds with my counterfoils; I did not sign this cheque, nor did I give authority to any one to do so.

By THE COURT. I had not lent any cheques before to Palmer, but Brown knew that I had lent cheques to tradesmen in the neighbourhood.

CHARLES DEIGHTON . I am cashier at the London Discount Alliance—this cheque was paid in through a banker—I saw that the signature was irregular and made this endorsement, and sent it back; it is signed J. Collins, instead of James Collins in full.


9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-409
VerdictNot Guilty > no evidence

Related Material

409. ALBERT HODGES was again indicted for feloniously forging and uttering a cheque for 16l., upon which MR. MEAD offered no evidence.


9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-410
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty; Guilty > unknown; Guilty > lesser offence
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude; Imprisonment; Imprisonment

Related Material

410. CHARLOTTE RAMSDEN (44), RACHEL FLATOW (36), MARI VANDERVOORT (62), and CAROLINE FRINBERG (48) , Unlawfully conspiring to convict Julia Moses of having stolen 1,000 franc note; to which FLATOW and FRINBERG


MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE with MESSRS. STRAIGHT and OPPENHEIM conducted the Prosecution; and MR. RIBTON Defended Vandervoort.

ELIAS UNDERWOOD . I am a clerk in the office of the Clerk of the Peace for the County of Surrey—I produce the indictment against Julia Moses

and Rose Essinger at the Surrey Sessions in March; it was for stealing a 1,000 franc note, and Essinger was charged with receiving it—the four prisoners' names are on the back of the bill—I was present at the trial on 8th and 9th March and administered the oath to the four prisoners—I produce a certified copy of the record, which shows that they were acquitted.

Cross-examined. I administered the oath to them all—Mrs. Ramaden was sworn in the usual way in cases of felony, but on the Old Testament—I took no note of how Vandervoort was sworn, I can only say she was duly sworn—I saw her kiss the book—I am sure she was sworn—my recollection is not absolutely clear that Vandervoort was sworn, but I swear that all those who were called were duly sworn.

GEORGE HENRY LEWIS . I am a solicitor, I acted for Mrs. Moses, at the Surrey Sessions, and was present when the witnesses were sworn—all except Vandervoort were Jewesses, except the servants—I do not know that Vandervoort is a Roman Catholic, but I know she is not a Jewess—she was sworn on the New Testament—Ramsden said that she applied for admission to the Home, for a friend of hers, and gave a reference to Dr. Asher, and subsequently went to him and stated that the admission was for herself, and that she was admitted the following day, that she took to the Home a box in which was a purse, in which was a bank-note for 1,000 francs; that while in the house she showed that bank-note to Mrs. Moses, and that it was stolen from her there, and that some days afterwards on opening her purse she discovered in the place of her note, two notes of the Bank of France for 100 francs each—she also said that after she left the Home she called at the police-station, on 4th December, and then went to the Home and saw Mrs. Moses, and on 19th December, went with a policeman to Mrs. Moses at the Home—she was cross examined at considerable length—Flatow swore that her husband kept a hairdresser's shop in Goldsmith Street, Whitechapel, that on 20th November, 1876, about 9.15 a.m., I think I am correct as to the time, a young girl came into the shop to purchase a wig and some false hair; that Mrs. Vandervoort and Moses Aaron were in the shop at the time, and that she offered in payment a 1,000 franc note, but was unable to change it, and said that it did not matter she would call again, and she identified Rose Essinger as the girl—Vandervoort swore that she was in Flatow's shop, but would not be certain of the date; that a young lady who was there when she arrived, wanted to buy some hair and offered a 1,000 franc note in payment; that she, coming from Belgium, and speaking French knew a 1,000 franc note and examined it, and that it had on it "mille francs"; that she followed the young lady out, who offered her outside the shop 1l. if she would get the note changed for her into English money, and that the young lady was Rose Essinger, who was in the dock-Caroline Frinberg swore that she was a dealer in ladies' clothing in Leman Street, Whitechapel; that in November, a young lady called between 9 and 10 o'clock at her shop and wanted to buy some satin skirts, and offered in payment what she said was French money equal to 40l. English, and that she saw in her hand a piece of paper of a bluish character—Mrs. Levy was also examined and swore that she was present in Frinberg's shop and heard what took place.

Cross-examined. I was present when Vandervoort was sworn—she was sworn as Christians generally are with the usual oath on the New Testament.

JULIA MOSES . I am the matron of the Jewish Convalescent Home, Soutn Norwood, and have been since 1869—Rose Essinger is my daughter; she lived with me and was employed as a certificated teacher at a Jewish school

in the neighbourhood of Whitechapel—she goes there every morning and returns to sleep in the evening—early in November the prisoner Ramsden called on me to ask about the home—she said she had heard a great deal about it and the comforts that there were there, and she knew a lady who was very ill, and if she could only get her admitted to the home she thought it would be a very good thing for her—I gave her a book of the rules, she sat down and we had a conversation—I told her that she should see Dr. Asher—she returned on 6th November, and brought an admission from Dr. Asher—I had received a letter from Dr. Asher in the morning, and when she came I said "I see your friend has got admission;" she took out the paper and said "What shall I tell you, it is for myself"—she said "Can I remain now I am here?"—I said "No, there is but one routine; we take patients on Tuesdays about 11 o'clock, or half-past"—she said "You must allow me to bring a small box"—I said "We do not allow boxes to be brought in as a rule"—she said "It is about this size"—she came on the Tuesday evening after which I saw a large box in the play-room—she asked me to allow her to keep it there—I said I would think over it and decide in the morning—I ultimately gave her leave to keep it there—she never showed me any money of any kind while she was at the home—she talked to me a great deal; she told me she had been offered 2,000 francs to get a husband for Madame Bishopstein's daughter, and that she was arranging the marriage—she told me about her life, and going about the world and a great many curious stories—on the Wednesday evening before she left I heard Miss Sealey call out—I went upstairs and Miss Sealey and Mrs. Ramsden came to me—Mrs. Ramsden made a charge against Miss Sealey which I declined to believe, and Mrs. Ramsden became very angry indeed—she said that it was a very bad wicked house—she was very violent and called Miss Sealey very bad names—I said that I had known her a long time and could not believe anything against her and I said "How long are you going to keep on with the same story?"—she said "For years until I have completed your ruin"—I said "My ruin?"—she said "Yes for your pride and arrogance; you shall not be matron here long if I can help it"—she went to pack up her box and wanted to go at 11 o'clock at night, but I would not permit it—I said to her next morning "After all is it not folly to put yourself out of a comfortable home. If you are ill, why do you go in such weather"—she said "I will not remain while that prostitute Miss Sealey is here"—I said "Do not polute my ears with such words," and left the room—that was on 23rd November—she left that day, she had made no charge or allegation up to that time that she had lost 1,000 francs—she took her box away and I heard no more of her till the 24th of December when she came for some clothes which she had left behind to be washed—I saw her in the kitchen and said "What, are you here Mrs. Ramsden"—she said "Yes, I came for my washing, can I have a few minutes' private conversation with you with Mrs. Moses"—I thought she had come to apologise for her bad behaviour—I said "No, whatever you have to say, say here"—the housemaids Anne Blackpool and Mary Ann James were in the kitchen—her bundle had then been handed to her, she took it up and walked into the dining-room—I followed her, she asked me what she had to pay for her washing—I said "Nothing, you know it is charity"—she asked what she had to pay for the time she had been in the home—I said "I told you that it was a charity home"—she said "I thank you for the 200 francs you put in my purse"—I looked at her and she said "It was a very motherly act on your part"—I said "Well, you know I am

a mother to you all, when you are in the home"—thinking she was a little crazy I said "Did you find 200 francs in your purse when you got home"—she said "Yes"—I said "That must have been a very bulky parcel in a purse"—she said "Well, well, will you tell me the name of the lady who put in in my purse?"—I said "You have just now said that I did it," and with that she took her bundle into the kitchen; I followed her—she placed it on the kitchen table—I rather think the servants were there—she said "Tell me the name of the lady that I may thank her"—"I said "Depend upon it whoever put it there does not require thanks'"—she said "Well whoever wants to injure me will be themselves injured"—I said "You have not been injured, by your own showing you are 200 francs richer than when you came"—she said "Well, well, you wont smile very long"—I wanted to get rid of her, and opened the side door for her to go out—she said "Will you allow the nurse to take the parcel for me to the railway"—I said "I will not allow my servants to go on your errands; you remind me of the old adage' If you do ninety-nine good things out of 100, you do not do the 100th?"—she came back and said "If you will let me have a few lines to-morrow by the post, saying you would like the money returned, I shall be very happy to do so; my address is Forest Hill Villa"—I shut the door and heard no more—she did not mention the loss of a 1,000 franc note, or any loss, only a gain—on 11th or 12th December I received this telegram from Mr. Beard, the solicitor—that was the first intimation I had that Mrs. Ramsden had lost a 1,000 franc note; I immediately handed it to the honorary secretary—I remember on 19th December Mrs. Ramsden coming with a constable Cowell, who said "Mrs. Moses, I have come about a very unpleasant affair; Mrs. Ramsden has been to the Croydon Magistrates, and said that she lost 1,000 franc note at the Home, and that you admitted before the servants that you had taken it"—Ramsden then said "Call the good Christian servants who take the Sacrament every Sunday, they will tell the truth"—I looked round, but did not see the servants—I said that I had not seen a 1,000 franc note in Ramsden's possession, and never saw one in all my life"—Ramsden said "The night you would not let me have the box to pack you were taking it out," and she said that it was a good home, and that we had cooking done in the middle of the night, and then she began to ramble, and I said "Sergeant, take her away, I am sick of her," and he did so—on 20th December I was served with this summons to attend at the Guildhall on the 30th; it charges me with the larceny of 1,000 franc bank-note—I appeared on the 30th November and was charged with larceny—' my daughter was not then included—Flatow, Vandervoort, and Frinberg were not there—my daughter was called as a witness for me and I was discharged, I afterwards received notice that a bill had been found against me at the Surrey Sessions, and I stood my trial there for two days—my daughter was changed with me—I never took a 1,000 franc note out of Ramsden's box—I never saw one, or any money in her possession—I had nothing to do with putting 200 francs into her box—I never saw any French money in my life.

Cross-examined by Ramsden. You wanted me to accept three articles of underclothing for my daughter; they were marked "C. R.," and you said that it could be altered to "R. E.," but 1 gave them back to you—I have not told your fortune by cards—you never said to me "Give me back my 1,000 francs."

ROSE ESSINGER . I am a daughter of Mrs. Moses, and am a certificated

teacher at the Jews Infant School; I have been there nearly six years—I live with my mother, and go off of a morning to attend to my duties at the East-end of the town—I have never had a 1,000 franc note in my possession and never saw one in my life—I never went into a shop and attempted to change one—I was never in Flatow's shop, but she once came to my school—I heard her swear on my trial that I went to 3, Goulston Street about the 20th and wanted to buy some hair, and tendered a 1,000 franc note; there was no truth in that—I heard Vandervoort examined; she said that I was in Mrs. Flatow's shop, and followed her outside and offered her 1l. to change the note; that was all untrue—I heard Frinberg examined, she swore that three months, before I called at her shop to buy satin skirts and offered her a 1,000 franc note; that was entire fabrication—I saw Elizabeth Levy in the witness-box, and heard her swear that she was at Mrs. Frinberg's shop when I offered a 1,000 franc note; there was not a single word of truth in that; the whole matter is a fabrication from beginning to end.

Cross-examined by Ramsden. I have not got a fortune-book—I did not get the tongs and put some red powder in the fire—I was not going to be married—I never saw any French money in your possession.

ELIZABETH LEVY . I am the wife of Isaac Levy, a waistcoat maker, of Leman Street, Whitechapel—I gave evidence on oath against Mrs. Moses and Miss Essinger at the Surrey Sessions, through being brought into it—I stated that I was in Mr. Frinberg's shop when Miss Essinger came in and offered a 1,000 franc note in payment for some dresses—Mrs. Ramsden told me to say so, but there was not a word of truth in it—I never saw Miss Essinger in my life—I do not know what came over me to induce me to do so—I was passing by Mrs. Frinberg's and she called "Mrs. Levy"—I said "I cannot stop"—she said "I only want you for a few minutes; there was a young girl came into my shop and picked out some skirts and produced some French money, and I offered to go next door and change it"—between 6 and 7 o'clock the same evening I went to the shop again and saw Mrs. Ramsden and Mrs. Frinberg—Mrs. Ramsden said "Sit down, my dear, I love you; I have taken a particular liking to you, I will make you and your poor husband comfortable"—she then asked me to come up to the Surrey Sessions and state that Miss Essinger came into the place and bought two or three skirts and produced some French money—she said that if I did that she would give me a mint of money, and I went in consequence and committed perjury, and I hope the Lord Mayor and the jury will forgive me for what I have done.

Cross-examined by Ramsden. You asked me if I saw anybody in the shop; I said "No, I was led into it"—you said you would let me have ten years—I said "You ought to have twenty years like Madame Rachael"—you told Mrs. Frinberg to take me into the shop and tell me all this—I have been in the shop and in the parlour too.

Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. I said on the trial that I was bound to come and speak the truth; I do not remember saying that it was from a sense of justice—I never saw the solicitor before I was in Court—I had this conversation with Mrs. Ramsden, a week and a few days before the trial—I never saw 1,000 franc note in my life—I was charged at the police-court, I have had to turn Queen's evidence, and when I was discharged I was made a witness—at the time I made that statement on the trial, I believed that the whole of it was untrue, and I wanted to say so, but Mrs. Frinberg said "For God's sake don't say so, you will get us all hung, and don't say anything

to your husband"—I am a Jewess, and so is Mrs. Frinberg, I do not know about Airs. Ramsden, I never saw her before.

Re-examined. I made a statement to the Chaplain of the gaol.

RACHAEL FLATOW (The prisoner). I am charged with perjury and have admitted my guilt—I lived at 3, Goulston Street, Whitechapel—I was examined at the Surrey Sessions as a witness, and stated that Miss Essinger had been into my shop and asked me to change a 1,000 franc note—there was not a single word of truth in that—Mrs. Ramsden came to my place, and persuaded me to do it—I have known her since she was confined with twins at my brother's place ten or twelve years ago, and then she went away and I did not see her for ten or twelve years—she came to my shop and asked me to take this false oath—she has not given me anything, but I got 12s. at the Court—she said "Be a witness for me"—I said "I can't because I know nothing at all about it"—she told me to say that the young lady had been in my place and asked for change for the note—she took me to the Infant School, and sent me in and told me to ask for Miss Essinger—I asked Mrs. Palmer which was Miss Essinger, and she pointed her out—I had seen her before and knew her face but not her name, because my brother lived next door to the Infant School—I went deliberately into the witness-box and swore that that young lady offered to pass a 1,000 franc note, with the full knowledge that she might be sent to prison for years for it; Mrs. Ramsden persuaded me—Mrs. Vandervoort was in my shop, she brought a dress in her hand, and said "Mrs. Ramsden has sent you this, "but Miss Essinger was never in my shop, and I never knew Mrs. Vander-voort until she gave evidence at the Surrey Sessions, and said that she was in my shop, I know a man named Reece, he was not present when Mrs. Ramsden and I were talking about the evidence I was to give.

Cross-examined by Ramsden. My shop was always shut on Saturday, you stopped with me all the night before the trial, and you were taken in custody at my house.

Re-examined. I said to Ramsden, I want to go to bed and to-morrow I am going to the cemetery—she said "I know Mr. Barnett, and if you like you can mention this case to him and say that a lady has been at your place with 1,000 francs, and you cannot change it"—and that is what I did.

By MR. RIBTON. I had never seen Vandervoort in my life till she came to my place.

CAROLINE FRINBERG (The prisoner). I have confessed myself guilty of perjury and pleaded guilty—I stated at the Surrey Sessions that Miss Essinger came into my shop and wanted change for 1,000 franc note; that was untrue, Mrs. Ramsden put me up to say so—I had never seen her before—she came to my shop and offered me a fortune to be a witness against Mrs. Moses, and Rose Essinger—she pretended to buy something and she pressed me into it innocently, she took my senses away in the night—they have come back again now—she called me her dear sister—she said if you go against that bad woman I shall have my property back and I shall make your fortune.

Cross-examined by Ramsden. I was tried and convicted eighteen or nineteen years ago—I was convicted innocently, it was a family affair.

JACOB LAMM . I am a working tailor, of 105, Hamburgh Street, Mile End—I was an inmate of the Convalescent Home, Norwood, and left while Ramsden was an inmate—she came to ray lodgings on 8th December, and said "Mr. Lamm do you know I have lost 1,000 francs in the Home"—I said

"Mrs. Ramsden I do not believe such a thing, because Mrs. Moses is a quiet lady"—she said "I will give you 10l. if you will say you have seen 1,000 francs in my possession at the home"—I refused.

Ramsden in her defence made a statement in broken English, only partly intelligible; she maintained the truth of her statements and requested that the police-sergeant should he called.

JAMES CUNNELL (Police Sergeant WR 4). I took Ramsden on 19th December, she came to the station and I advised her to go to the Home and see Mrs. Moses, and say that while she was there 1,000 franc note had been abstracted from her purse, and 100 franc note put in its place—she did not charge Mrs. Moses then—I afterwards went with her to the Home, and saw Mrs. Moses—I told her that I had been directed by the Bench of Magistrates to come and see her respecting the statement made by Mrs. Ramsden about the loss of a note, and that I should have to report to the Magistrates the result of my interview—she said "I know nothing whatever about it"—I asked her if she saw the 1,000 franc note—she said "Never in my life"—Ramsden did not say "The night you would not let me have the box to pack you where taking it out"—she said "Did not you tell me a lady had given you the money to put in my purse?"—Mrs. Moses said "Well, I did say so but it was in a joke"—Ramsden produced two 100 franc notes at the station.

G. H. LEWIS (Re-examined by MR. RIBTON). I heard a witness named Rece state at Croydon and again at the Surrey Sessions, that Mrs. Ramsden came about 6th November and showed him a letter which she translated, and that there was in it a French note for 1,000 francs.

By MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. You cross-examined him—I cannot say whether he was among the witnesses who you said you did not consider were telling a word of truth, but he has not been indicted for perjury, because it was impossible to get witnesses to disprove a negative.

RAMSDEN— GUILTY of perjury and conspiracy Five Years' Penal Servitude.

VANDERVOORT— GUILTY of conspiracy Eighteen Months' Impisonment.

FLATOW and FRINBERG— Twelve Months' Imprisonment each.

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-411
VerdictGuilty > unknown

Related Material

411. WILLIAM HOLMES (36) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.

MR. HORACE AVORY conducted the Prosecution.

CHARLOTTE CHESTER . I am a widow, and keep a hosier's shop at Tooting—on 8th March, about 3 p.m., the prisoner came and bought a pair of socks which came to 9 1/2 d.; he gave me a florin, I gave him the change and gave the florin to my daughter, Harriett—he came again between 4 and 5 o'clock for another pair of socks like the last and gave me a florin, which I put in my cash-box, and gave him the change, and he left—I afterwards gave the two florins to a policeman—when the prisoner first came there was a man in my shop who gave me three florins, which I gave to my daughter Harriett—these socks (produced) are the same kind as I sold him.

HARRIETT CHESTER . I am a daughter of the last witness—on 8th March, about 3 o'clock, I saw the prisoner in the shop and saw him give my mother a florin in payment for a pair of socks; she gave it to me, and I noticed a black mark on the top of it and a small mark near the nose—this is the coin (Picking it out from several others), but the black mark is not there now—I had no other florin in that hand, but I had three in my right hand which my mother gave me—I took the prisoner's florin back into shop and

after a while I put it in the cash-box—later on in the evening I saw the prisoner in the shop again, and spoke to my sister Belle about him—she went to the cash-box and took out some money—I picked out the florin which is produced, and my mother took it away.

BELLE CHESTER . I am a daughter of Mrs. Chester—on 8th March, about: 3 p.m., I saw the prisoner in the shop, and again at 5 and 7 o'clock—I served him with a pair of socks the same as the others; he gave me a florin—I told him it was bad—he said "No, I have other monies;" and he gave me other money and left—I spoke to my mother; she went to the cash-box and found two other florins, which she took possession of.

WILLIAM AUSTIN PRIOR . I live at Tooting—on 3rd March I served the prisoner with 1/2 lb. of sugar and a 2d. cake—he gave me a bad shilling; I gave it back to him—he said he was not aware of it, and gave me a good one—he said he had got it in change for a sovereign at the Plough, at Clapham.

Cross-examined. I picked you out in a moment; I am sure you are the man.

JOHN LECOCQ (Policeman). On 8th March I saw the prisoner in the Castle public-house, about 4.45, that is opposite Mrs. Chester's—later on Mrs. Chester gave me information, and I took him into custody for uttering two bad florins—he said he knew nothing about it—on the road to the station he said that he must have got the bad money at the Plough, at Clapham, where he bad changed a sovereign—I found on him a half-crown, two shillings, a 6d., 6 1/2 d. in bronze, and thirty-seven postage stamps—I received these two florins from Mrs. Chester.

Cross-examined. The first time I took you was about 4.45 and again at 7.45—two more men were with you, who live in the neighbourhood of Tooting.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . These two florins are bad.

Prisoner's Defence. I changed a sovereign at the Plough, at Clapham, and got drinking. My socks had two or three darns in them, and I went in and bought a pair; they were taken from me for a joke, and I went in and bought the second pair. The third florin had been run over and damaged.

GUILTY Twelve Months' Imprisonment

Before Mr. Justice Manisty.

9th April 1877
Reference Numbert18770409-412
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

Related Material

412. FRANCIS WINN (50), was indicted for b—st—y.

MR. MEAD conducted the Prosecution; MR. KEOGH the Defence.

The prisoner received a good character.

GUILTY Twenty Years' Penal Servitude.


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