Old Bailey Proceedings.
10th April 1865
Reference Number: t18650410

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Old Bailey Proceedings front matter.
10th April 1865
Reference Numberf18650410

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Sessions Paper.








Short-hand Writers to the Court,








Law Publishers to the Queen's Most Excellent Majesty.



On the Queen's Commission of



The City of London,





Held on Monday, April 10th, 1865, and following days.

BEFORE THE RIGHT HON. WARREN STORMES HALE, LORD MAYOR of the City of London; Sir WILLIAM FRY CHANNELL, Knt., one of the Barons of Her Majesty's Court of Exchequer; Sir WILLIAM SHEE , Knt., one of the Justices of Her Majesty's Court of Queen's Bench; Sir MONTAGUE SMITH , Knt., one of the Justices of Her Majesty's Court of Common Pleas; WILLIAM TAYLOR COPELAND , Esq., M.P.; THOMAS CHALLIS , Esq.; THOMAS SIDNEY , Esq. M.P.; THOMAS QUESTED FINNIS, Esq.; Sir ROBERT WALTER CARDEN , Knt.; Aldermen of the said City; RUSSELL GURNEY , Esq., Q. C., Recorder of the said City; BENJAMIN SAMUEL PHILLIPS , Esq.; THOMAS GABRIEL , Esq.; JAMES ABBISS , Esq.; SIDNEY HEDLEY WATERLOW , Esq.; and ANDREW LUSK , Esq., Aldermen of the said City; THOMAS CHAMBERS , Esq., Q. C., Common Serjeant of the said City; and ROBERT MALCOLM KERB, Esq., Judge of the Sheriffs Court; Her Majesty's Justices of Oyer and Terminer and General Gaol Delivery of Newgate, bolden for the said City, and Judges of the Central Criminal Court.

THOMAS DAKIN , Esq., Alderman.

ROBERT BESLEY , Esq., Alderman.







A star (*) denotes that prisoners have been previously in custody—two stars (**) that they have been more than once in custody—an obelisk (†) that they are known to be the associates of bad characters—the figures after the name in the indictment denote the prisoner's age.


OLD COURT.—Monday, April 10th, 1865.

Before Mr. Recorder.

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-360
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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360. AARON CLARES (27), was indicted for wilful and corrupt perjury on the trial of William Brown. (See page 233.)

MR. BESLEY conducted the Prosecution, and MESSRS. COOPER and ORRIDGE the Defence.

JOHN LLOYD . I am clerk to Messrs. Humphreys and Morgan, of Giltspurchambers, Newgate-street—they were solicitors for the prosecution of Brown, and the defence of Barber—I produce, a certificate of the conviction of William Brown (read).

Cross-examined. Q. I believe the Marquis Townshend supports this prosecution? A. I do not know—I believe he supplies the funds; I can't swear it—I have seen him at our office on this matter, not over and over again—I saw him at the police-court on one occasion.

WILLIAM CLARK MACKIE . I am one of the criers of the Central Criminal Court—I was present at the trial of William Brown, a police-constable, at the January Session, before the Recorder—the defendant was called as a witness—I administered the oath to him.

ALEXANDER BUCKLER . I am one of the short-hand writers appointed to take notes of cases tried at the Central Criminal Court—I was present on 12th January, when William Brown, a police-constable, was tried for an assault upon Elizabeth Barber—I took notes of the evidence of Aaron Clares on that occasion—this is a transcript of the short-hand notes—I have compared the two—it is correct (The evidence was here read. See page 240.)

PATRICK SMITH . I am a driller, and lived in December at 1, England Cottages, Millwall—I had known James Barber and his wife—I had worked with him, but was not doing so at that time—on Saturday, 3d December, I left off work about 4 o'clock, at the shipbuilding yard, Millwall Iron-works—I had a glass of wine, but that was all the drink I bad that night or day—I saw Mr. Barber about 11 o'clock opposite the Glengall public-house, which is about one hundred yards from where I live, and the same distance from his own house—I went looking for two men at the club-house, and afterwards went to Barber's lodging—it was then getting on for 12 o'clock—I saw Mrs. Barber at 4, Cahir-street, and walked with Mr. and Mrs. Barber to Mrs. McGeehan's, in Kingsbridge-place—we found a person named

Conolly there, who also was known to me—I remained there twenty minutes or half an hour, and left to go home about half—past 12, as near as I can guess—Mr. and Mrs. Barber left at the same time, but not Conolly—we had to pass the turning to Kingsbridge—place to go to their house—there is a pillar post letter—box at the corner of the turning to England Cottages—it is just opposite the Ironmongers' Arms—I walked with them as far as the pillar post letter—box, and then stopped to shake hands—I noticed two policemen standing on the pavement opposite the pillar letter—box—one of them, the prisoner, crossed the road alone, came up to me, looked me in the face, gave me a chuck in the neck, and said, "What are you doing here at this time of night?"—there had been no noise or disturbance on our part to call for his interference, I was only shaking hands—Barber said that if he was doing his duty, or something like that, he would not carry on like that—he turned me rather round—the other man then came across the street, and Mrs. Barber shouted, "James, run"—they were in contact when the other man, William Brown, lauded on the pavement, and as soon as she shouted the other policeman said, "I will soon do for you, "and struck her on the temple with his baton—he was tried in the other Court for that assault—I caught Mrs. Barber in my arms, and the blood came on to my sleeve—Barber ran five or six steps backwards, as far as the dealer's shop, and the two policemen were making at him—they had their truncheons in their hands—I saw him run away and the constables after him—Mrs. Barber shouted a second time, "James, run, or they will murder you"—he ran, and the two policemen made after him, one saying to the other, "Now, mate, stick to me"—I went into my house, and Mrs. Barber rushed out of my arms and said she would follow James, or they would murder him—after I had been indoors Rome time, I went out to Mrs. McGeehan's—it had just gone 1 o'clock when I got there—I found Mr. and Mrs. Barber there—I noticed that Mr. Barber's hand was swelled—I think it was his left hand—he said that be should—not be able to work—his watch was broken and the—hands wore bent, it had stopped at four minutes to 1 o'clock.

Cross-examined. Q. When did you first go to the police—court as a witness for Barber to make this charge of assault on his wife; was it a week or a fortnight after? A. I think about a week afterwards—it might be a fort—night—I cannot tell you to a day—Mrs. Barber was the first person to ask me to go to the police—court; but she was not able to go, and Mrs. McGeehan took it in hand and went—when I went to see Mrs. Barber she was in Mrs. McGeehan's parlour, in bed—that is about five minutes' walk from her own lodgings—I never heard that there was a charge by the police against Barber for assaulting Brown, till Barber came from North fleet the second time, and he said that he believed the police were looking after him—that was a week or a fortnight afterwards—it was a week afterwards that he came to his wife, who was in bed in Mrs. McGeehan's parlour—he was in the kitchen when ho told mo ho believed the police were after him—that is not on the same floor as the kitchen, you go down lower to it—I do not think Mrs. McGeehan was in the kitchen—Conolly was there and one of Mrs. McGeehan's sons—Barber said that he would take proceedings against the police, and I said that it was very proper, for they deserved it—he said, Mrs. Barber asked mo to go as a witness the next day after it happened, but he did not follow it up, because he was afraid of losing his situation—no nobleman's name was mentioned on any occasion in my presence till it came before that gentleman—I never spoke to the Marquis of Townshend till this case came on, and then he only asked me how I was on two occasions,

but said nothing about thin matter—he has never paid me a shilling—I know no more who is going to pay me than the man in the moon—I heard that Lord Townshend took the case up, but whether he is finding the funds I do not know—I had not seen Clares or Brown before, to my knowledge—I saw them next on the day we went to the police-court, and they knew me very well.

MR. BESLEY. Q. I understand that Barber was working at Northfleet? A. Yes—this happened on Saturday, and he went to Northfleet on Sunday night, and returned at the end of the week—his wife was still at Mrs. McGeehan's—I believe the doctor would not allow her to go out—I went to the police-court on the following Monday evening to get a summons against the prisoner for the thrust in the neck, but I could not get his name and address—I went to get the summons at the same time that Barber applied—Messrs. Humphreys and Morgan were acting in the matter at that time—Barber got a summons, but I did not—I did not go to the police-court more than once about a summons for myself—it was after Barber had been tried that I first knew the Marquis by sight, and Brown was tried the next day—I had given evidence in Barber's case—I have had 1l. 0s. 8d. altogether from the Court—I lost about four shillings a day every day I was there—that was more than five days; nearly three times five.

JAMES BARBER . I am a boiler-maker—in December last, I lived with my wife at 4, Cahir-street, Mill wall—I worked at Northfleet, at Mr. Charles Mare's yard, contracting for the caulking of ships, with my mate—on Saturday, 3d December, I left work about 4 o'clock—I had some men at work under me, and went to a public-house to pay them on leaving work—I had a glass of sherry to drink there, and before I left Northfleet I went to the Dover Castle, the club-house of the boiler-makers—I there had a bottle of ginger-beer—I am a teetotaller, and had no intoxicating liquor that night—when I got home, at half-past 4 o'clock, I saw Mrs. Barber—I, had a furnished room taken for her at Northfleet, as she was in bad health;—she came up with me to Millwall—we got there between 7 and 8—we left when the 6 o'clock train arrived, and went to 4, Cahir-street—I cannot say how long I remained there with my wife—I had a little business to transact, and went out to look for three men in the employment—I saw Patrick Smith at a little after 8—it was about half an hour after my tea—he was coming down past the Glengall—I then went home and saw my wife, and in three quarters of an hour or an hour left the house with Smith—we went down to his house, and I think he went in—I then went into the Ironmongers' Arms to look for two men to go to employment in North-fleet, and some more men came and asked for me—I then went home and found my wife there, and Mrs. Mc Geehan—Mr. Cannon is the landlord of the house—he was not there, and I do not think Mrs. Reid was there—Smith came to the house after I went there, and my wife and I, Mrs. McGeehan, and Smith went out, and walked down to Mrs. McGeehan's, No. 8, Kingabridge-place—no one else was there but Mrs. McGeehan and Conolly, my mate—we were consulting there about a little affair for an hour and a half or thereabouts—Smith and my wife came out with me, leaving Conolly behind—it was then between 12 and 1 o'clock—we had to cross the end of the street in which Smith lives, to go home—when we got to the pillar letter-box we stopped—we were quite sober, and there was not the slightest noise made by me or my wife—I noticed two police-constables on the other side of the street, the prisoner was one, he crossed over, looked in Patrick Smith's face and hit him in the neck with his

hand—I could not catch the words he said as I am a little deaf, but it was something about the night, and he struck him on the face with his open hand—I told him he was not doing his duty or he would not do that, as he was a peaceable, quiet man—he turned about and struck me on the mouth and I struck him back again, and gave it him very hot too, and he deserved it and no mistake—the other policeman then came across the street, that was William Brown, who was tried here in January and got fourteen days. (See page 233)—he bad his truncheon drawn and made at me—my wife told me to run or they would kill me—Brown then stepped past Smith and struck her on the temple deliberately with that baton that he carries—before I began to run I went four or five yards backwards, facing the two policemen—I was fighting a good retreat for four or five yards—I was not slack—I ran straight home for fear they should get me down and give me a benefit—Mr. Cannon, the master of the house let me in, and ray wife came in about three or four minutes afterwards dabbled all over with blood, her shawl and her chemise—the blood had been flowing from her temple—she told me to go for a doctor—she was bleeding like a cow which had been stuck—I took a stick and left the house, the policemen were then close to the door with their truncheons in their hands—they made blows at me and struck me over the kidneys and broke my watch—the man on the left-hand side, Brown, struck me also and I struck him—I was not three seconds from him; I had to defend myself, I let no man strike me and I not strike him back—I knocked him down and he richly deserved it—he got two months' for it and I got fourteen days—I think the prisoner made the best of his way out of my road in case he should get the same—I then went to Mrs. McGeehan's, Kingsbridge-place, my wife came there shortly afterwards—after I ran away the first time I saw Patrick Smith at Mrs. McGeehan's—I was excited and do not know what time that was—my watch was going before the blow which broke the glass, it could not have gone after the glass was broken for the bands and face were knocked in; she stopped at four minutes to one—she was a six-guinea watch—I think Patrick Smith, when he was at Mrs. McGeehan's, saw the hand on which I had the blow—I went with my wife in a cab to Poplar hospital and she was taken back to Mrs. McGeehan's in a cab—I left her there and went back on Sunday morning to my work at Northfleet, she was very bad at that time—Mr. Serjeant dressed the cut but she was under medical treatment before that—some time in the following week I think, I went with Mr. Morgan to the police-court to get a summons on the part of my wife against the police-constable—I did not get one and I did not go again—I do not know whether a summons was granted after Sir R. Mayne had been written to—next time I went to the police-court I was examined as a witness on a charge against Brown for assaulting my wife, after which I was charged with assaulting Brown—this man did not know me till he saw me going up to give evidence for my wife and then he came forward against me and charged me, but I own to it I do not deny what I have done—I had had no words or quarrel with my wife that evening—I never followed her with a stick or a poker, threatening to strike her with it—she said nothing in my hearing about "You murdering brute"—that is a fabrication these gentlemen have made up themselves—I was too kind to my wife to quarrel with her, for she was not in a state of health to quarrel with, she was under Mr. Debenham—I did not strike her at all—I braver heard that I had struck her till the trial at this Court.

Cross-examined. Q. How came you to be at the police-court that morning when the charge was made against Brown or by Brown against you,

were you summoned there? A. No, I went and got a summons, I never was served with one—I was not taken to the police-station by a constable—my wife's case was heard first, I think, I am not sure—I am no great lawyer but I like to understand what I say—I did not know that the police had been looking for me for some time, and I do not know that I told my friend Smith so—after leaving Cahir-street and going to Mrs. McGeehan's I went back to Cahir-street to sleep many times—after this night it is not likely that I or my wife would sleep at Cahir-street until the charge was made at the police-court—my wife continued at Mrs. McGeehan's till she got well, erysipelas set in in her face—after recovering this dreadful blow she walked to Mrs. McGeehan's with Mrs. Reid—our house was about fourteen yards off, I have measured it—I believe Mrs. McGeehan made away with the stick I used, she told me she burned it—it was one that would give a pretty good crack—I did not give it to her she ratherly took it out of my hand—I have brought Mrs. Reid here, she lodged at 4, Cahir-street—she was the only lodger in the house besides myself—she occupied a room upstairs and I occupied the parlour, the left hand side as you go in, the door opens to the left and my door opens to the right—there is a passage going to the back part of the house leading to the kitchen and the back-yard, and also upstairs to Mrs. Reid's room—I saw her that night, she was taking care of the house while we were away and saw us when we went in—Mr. Cannon, the landlord, and hiswife and family were also in the house—I have not seen the Marquis of Townshend upon this matter—Mrs. McGeehan went to some man, a lawyer the same as yourself, but I know nothing about it, let her tell her own story—I did not go to the Marquis and 1 do not know who did, and I do not think my wife did; he saw the woman was abused and he went to see justice on both sides; he heard tell of it—I saw him at this Court.

MR. BESLEY. Q. You said that you did not go back to Cahir-street and that it was not very likely that you would? A. Because after I had knocked Brown down, what sort of a basting would they have given me? my wife was lying at Mrs. McGeehan's and I believe the Inspector went and broke open my door and searched my pockets, Mrs. Reid told me that before I saw Mr. Morgan.

ELIZABETH BARBER . I am the wife of the last witness—in December last we lodged at 4, Cahir-street, Millwall—he was at work at Northfleet and I was there with him on 3d December, and came here with him, we were both perfectly sober—we went to 4, Cahir-street, and about nine o'clock we went out together—(I saw Mrs. McGeehan at our house, my husband went out and came in again while she was there—I can't say that I saw Patrick Smith)—we went to Kingsbridge-place, where Mr. and Mrs. McGeehan live—Conolly was there—we were not there an hour, it was about half-past twelve when we were leaving with Patrick Smith—we walked towards our own house passing England-cottages, and stopped at a pillar letter-box—I noticed the policemen standing on the pavement on the opposite side; neither of us made any noise to call for their interference—the prisoner crossed the road and asked Smith what he was doing there at that hour of the night and pushed him with his hand in this way—my husband said if he was doing his duty he would not do that—the prisoner then struck my husband on the mouth and my husband struck him back—Brown then came across with his stick in his hand—I told my husband to run when I saw two policemen at him and Brown turned round and struck me with his truncheon on the temple, here is the mark of it now—Brown has been tried in the other Court

—the two policemen then followed my husband up the street in the direction of Cahir-street and I think Patrick Smith went into his own house—I followed the policemen and passed them, they were standing at the corner of Cahir-street, and one said to the other, "Here she is coming, and we will watch where she goes and we will kill the Irish—"—ray husband is an Irishman—hearing that I did not pass down Cahir-street, but went on against the Great Eastern, my head was bleeding all the time—I went back to 4, Cahir-street as I was getting very weak, the door was open and I saw Mr. Cannon and my husband—my husband went for a doctor and I went to the door and saw the two policemen in the street—they both had their sticks at my husband trying to beat him, and he was keeping them off—about ten minutes afterwards Mrs. Reid went with me to Mrs. McGeehan's—I found my husband there—it was then close upon one o'clock—I went to Poplar hospital in a cab and afterwards Mr. Serjeant dressed my wound—I went back to Mrs. McGeehan's and Mr. Debenham, my medical man, attended me—I went to the police-court about a week after I got the blow—the day before I went to the police-court I went to Mr. Morgan's—I got the summons when I went, my husband was there before me and he did not get it—I had a glass of sherry that night, I think it was at my own house, that was all I had—I had had no quarrel or words with my husband that night—he never struck me with any weapon at 4, Cahir-street—I did not make use outside my door of the expression, "Oh, you murdering brute, "I only told him to run.

Cross-examined. Q. You did not get a summons the first time did you? A. Yes, the first time I went—I did not see Lord Townshend before I went again, and I do not think I saw him before I saw him at Arbour-square—I do not know how he came to be there—I had not applied to any Society but Mrs. McGeehan had done so before I went to the police-court and when I went there I found his Lordship there.

MR. BESLEY. Q. Do you know the Marquis personally? A. From seeing him I do—he was there on the day we went upon the summons—I was examined at Arbour-square, and the charge was made against Brown.

COURT. Q. Did you go in a cab to Poplar hospital and come back in a cab? A. Yes; I did not go to our house because Mrs. McGeehan thought it was best for me to have her bed as I had not slept in mine for a fortnight—she has the whole house and there are one or two spare rooms—she is married—there were rooms besides that which she and her husband occupied.

SARAH REID . I am the wife of John Reid—we lived at 4, Cahir-street in December last—Mr. Cannon was the landlord of the house—my husband works at the Millwall iron-works—on Saturday evening, 3d December, I saw Mr. and Mrs. Barber at half-past nine—they were both sober and on very good terms, I never saw them better—I did not see them go away with Mrs. McGeehan nor did I see Barber return—I saw Mrs. Barber after she had been injured—I did not see her enter the house, I ran out and caught hold of her—that was after Barber had left—I had been in bed, I heard Mrs. Barber scream and that fetched me out of bed—I saw two policemen in the street, standing on the opposite side—I cannot say whether they had anything in their hands—I took Mrs. Barber down to Kingsbridge-place, we got there at ten minutes or quarter past one—I then went back home and the police came to my house about halt-past three in the morning—the prisoner is one of them—I did not say then or at any other time that Mr. or Mrs. Barber had been fighting; there had been no fighting at all—I saw blood in the

passage, it was caused from the wound on Mrs. Barber's temple—I never said to the inspector or anybody else that Barber inflicted any injury on his wife; I deny it.

Cross-examined. Q. You walked with Mrs. Barber to Mrs. McGeehan's that night; how long did she stay? A. A very few minutes; she had a shawl on—she walked to Mrs. McGeehan's, because she wanted to see where her husband was, but he had gone for a doctor—I know Mrs. McGeehan by sight—I did not recommend Mrs. Barber to walk all the way to Mrs. McGeehan's; we were about ten minutes walking there; I walked slowly—when we arrived there, I saw Mr. Barber just coming out—there was no doctor with him; they said they would take her to the hospital, and I left—they took her into the parlour, and sat her on a chair—I saw no stick in Barber's hand—I left, and went home—Mrs. McGeehan lets the front-room up stairs furnished to a man and his wife, and keeps five rooms for herself—there are three rooms below and two back; one is a kitchen, a back and a front-parlour, and a room over the kitchen—she has a bed in the front-parlour, where Mrs. Barber slept—I saw Mrs. Barber there on the Monday following; it is furnished as a living and sleeping room—I saw Mr. Barber outside before I came into the witness-box—he only told me to mind how I spoke when I came into Court, because I seemed rather flurried; I am not fit to come into such a place as this just now—he did not say, "Stick to your story"—I did not see Smith.

MR. BESLEY. Q. Do you mean by not being in a fit state that you are expecting your confinement? A. Yes—there is no pretence for saying that Barber told me to stick to my story.

COURT. Q. You say that you had seen them at half-past 9? A. Yes; when they returned from Northfleet, and I saw Mrs. Barber till half-past 11, and then went to bed—I heard a scream which awoke me, and when I got down stairs Mrs. Barber had gone out again.

MATTHEW CANNON . I rent No. 4, Cahir-street, and let part of it—I have been twenty years at Pontifex's chemical-works—Mr. and Mrs. Barber had apartments at my house for eighteen months before December, but they were not there at the time—on 3d December I was very unwell, and went to bed at 7 o'clock—I was awoke at 1 o'clock in the morning by a knock at the door—I opened it, and admitted Mr. Barber—Mrs. Barber arrived in two or three minutes—I opened the door for her—she was bleeding terribly from the temple—Mr. Barber opened the door, went out for a doctor, and I went up stairs, and looked at the time; it was 1 o'olock exactly—I did not see Mrs. Reid that night at all.

BENJAMIN BOLDO . I work at the Millwall Iron-works—I know Mr. and Mrs. Barber and Patrick Smith—in December last I lodged with my wife and mother at 1, Lansell-cottages—on Saturday night, 3d December, I was returning home between 12 and 1 o'clock, and saw Mr. and Mrs. Barber and Patrick Smith—I was walking faster than they were; I passed them, and saw the two policemen opposite the pillar-post—they were twenty or thirty yards from the Ironmongers' Arms—when I got indoors, I heard the scream of a woman—next morning I heard a noise on the pavement, outside the Eastern public-house; there is no pavement at the pillar letter-box—I do not know who the policemen were.

HENRY KIHLET . In December last I lived at 16, England-terrace, Millwall, close to the pillar-post letter-box—I occupy the third floor—the head of my bed is towards the window—on 3d December I went to bed at 9 or 10 o'clock—I was not well, and I laid awake all night—about 12 o'clock I

heard a few words in the street below, and then heard a man run away—I heard the steps of somebody retreating—soon after that 1 heard a blow which, in ray opinion, must have been done with a dry piece of wood; I then heard a female scream.

Cross-examined. Q. Was the blow very loud? A. Yes; I cannot say whether it was like a piece of wood on a piece of wood; it is a question whether it was a brick or a piece of wood—it was between 12 and 1 o'clock—I looked at my watch, because I had to take my medicine at 7 o'clock, and I laid awake, and looked at my watch, and it was too soon.

COURT. Q. When was it you looked at your watch? A. About a quarter to 1—I had heard the scream before—just after I heard the scream I looked at my watch—I did not fall asleep between hearing the scream and looking at my watch; I did not sleep all night.

JANE TEESDALE . I live in the same house as the last witness, and sleep on the second floor in a room under him—on Saturday, 3d December, I retired to rest about 12 o'clock, and a little time after I went to bed, I was aroused by hearing the screaming of a female in the street, who appeared not far from the window.

Cross-examined. Q. Have you sometimes heard screams before? A. Yes, but not very often—12 o'clock is my usual time for going to bed on Saturday night, and sometimes later—I am married; my husband was in bed before me—I named this to my landlady the next morning—I was not asked to give evidence till alter Christmas as I was down in the North.

MR. BESLEY. Q. Did your hear anything at the Great Eastern that day? A. I heard some man speaking about some blood at the Great Eastern, but I did not know anything about it—that was the next day, Sunday—I had spoken about the scream before I heard about the blood.

JOHN FLYNN . I am a ship-builder, of 5, Bath-terrace, Cubitt-town—on Saturday, 3d December, I was with Charles McAndre at the Ironmongers' Arms—I saw a policeman there with a badge on his left arm—he was K 257—I am certain of his number, because I thought he was rather exceeding his duty in coming into a public-house with his badge on—it was about half-past 11.

Cross-examined. Q. Had you frequented the public-house? A. At certain intervals—I do not know Low, the barman, or Mr. Milton, the chemist, of England-terrace—I stayed there about three-quarters of an hour—there were about a dozen people there, or a dozen and a half—I did not see that man (Low) that I aware of—there was only one policeman there; he was dressed in uniform, with his duty-belt round; I saw that as distinctly as possible.

MR. BESLEY. Q. What was he doing? A. He came into the bar, called for a pint of ale, and drank it.

CHARLES MCANDRE . I am a hammerman—I was with Flynn in the Ironmongers' Arms in December last; be came forward to the bar, and got a pint-measure, but I cannot say what quantity he drank—Flynn said, "Look at the policeman taking some drink"—I said, "What odds is that to you; perhaps he is. dry, and wants a pint the same as you and I."

Cross-examined. Q. Do you know the barman? A. I cannot say whether it was a man or a woman who served him with the drink—there were a good many people there.

COURT. Q. When was your attention first called to having seen a police-man there? A. I was never spoken to until I was summoned to come here.

GEORGE ALLISON (Police-inspector.) This is the prisoner's signature to his deposition.

The prisoner's deposition before (he Magistrate was here put in.

Witnesses for the Defence.

WILLIAM BROWN . I live at 7, George's-terrace, Bromley—I was in the Army nearly five years, and have two medals and a clasp for the Crimean war—I bought my discharge out of the Army, and went into the Police, where I was nearly eight years—I know the defendant; his beat joined mine—we occasionally met in the course of the night; my beat extended as far as Mare's-yard, and his beat came to Limehouse, so that sometimes I met him, and sometimes not—on Sunday, 4th December, between 1 and 2 in the morning, I was on duty at Millwall; a man passed me before I got to Mare's-yard—he said, "Policeman, you are required up there n—in consequence of that I went up Cahir-street, and as soon as I got there a woman came up, and said, "Oh, you murdering brute"—I was going to step across the road, and James Barber swung something—I bobbed my head; it struck me on the head—I was knocked down insensible—I cannot say how long I remained so; I crawled on my hands and knees, and laid my head up against the wall—when I recovered myself I went to the timekeeper's-yard in Mare's-yard, and saw a man in the road—a man named Fearn, who used to belong to the K division, assisted me—I met the defendant coming hack; I was taken to Doctor McCrea, and then to the divisional surgeon, Mr. Brownfield—I was under his care a fortnight; I went to the station before I went to the doctor—I do not know Mrs. Barber; I never saw her till I saw her at the trial against me—I said that a woman ran out, and somebody after her, but I cannot say who she was—whoever she was I did not use my truncheon to her; it was not in my hand; I did not strike any one with it; I had not drawn it at all—I remember Barber being tried, and Josiah Serjeant being called as a witness for him.

Cross-examined by MR. BESLEY. Q. Do you know Mr. Debenham, the surgeon who attended Mrs. Barber? A. No; I saw him in attendance at the trial; I did not see Mr. Serjeant called, but I heard he was called—I was not told when I was sentenced that my services in the Army and in the police were considered—I was told that I had two months instead of a much heavier punishment—I was present when the Jury brought in their verdict against Barber—I do not know whether they said that they could not make up their minds whether there was provocation or not—there was a timekeeper there—I did not say that there was a man in Mare's-yard who whistled—I do not know the barman at the public-house, Milton, or the other man, the druggist, that I am aware of.

MR. COOPER. Q. Had you occasion to use your truncheon at all that night? A. No—I never went so far as the pillar-post.

WILLIAM CHALK . I live at 6, Mornington-road—I am traveller to Mr. Miller, a wine-merchant—on the evening of 3d December, I had been round Blackwall, Poplar, and Limehouse, on business—I met my brother and some friends—we went to the Kingsbridge Arms—I heard 1 o'clock go, and I should think it was eight or nine minutes past 1 when I left—I had occasion to pass Cahir-street, and when I was on the left-hand side of it I heard a female screaming "Murder!"—it was then from fifteen to twenty minutes past 1—I spoke to a man—I said, I was afraid there was murder going on—he said it was only some drunken quarrel—I said, "I am going to Potter's Ferry, and will look out for a policeman"—I found one just by the steps of Mare's Iron-works—I made a communication to him—he went off towards Cahir-street, and I went to Potter's Ferry—that is the man (Brown)—I am here in consequence of a bill which I saw in a shop in Millwall, requiring the witness who spoke to the policeman.

Cross-examined. Q. Is that one of the bills? (produced) A. Yes; I saw two or three of them in shop windows—I first saw them I should think about 14th or 15th February—the man I spoke to was aroused by the screams, the same way as I was—he was dressed in a fustian jacket; he was standing in the street—I did not go with him because I was very late—I have been in Mr. Miller's service six years;—I read the newspapers very little—I had no curiosity to look in the papers to see if anything had happened—I did not hear of Brown having assaulted Mrs. Barber till I saw the bills, and then 1 went to Mr. Leet, the solicitor—I am in Mr. Miller's employ now—I had not seen my brother for a month before, and have not seen him since—his employment now is at Islington—I have not seen any of the persons I saw that night—my brother and my aunt were at the Kings-bridge Arms—they would know the night as well as me; they are not here—seeing the bill, called it to my recollection that I had heard a cry of murder—I was not taken to see Brown at all—I had never seen him before 3d December.

COURT. Q. What enables you to fix upon this as happening on 3d December? A. I had to meet my brother; he wanted to sell me something, and he wanted some money for the Monday—it was a case of distress—he had a large family, and he had some tickets of a photographic machine which he wished to sell me, and on 6th December I purchased the tickets of him—I paid him on the 6th; the tickets were in the Kent-road, at Mr. Wade's, a pawnbroker's—I have not brought it with me—I know it was Saturday the 3d, and not Saturday the 10th, because my brother wrote to me, and I have the letter—I have not brought it with me—I hardly know whether I have it now, because I have had to remove—I know it was the 3d, because I have never been so late and had so much trouble-in getting a boat—I am positive as to the date—I have not the pawn-tickets here, but I have bad to make an affidavit as to the date, because it was past the time, so that impresses the date on my mind.

MATTHEW BROWNFIELD . I am divisional surgeon to the Police—I live at 101, East India-road—on Sunday morning, 4th December, about 4 o'clock, Brown came to me—I found him suffering from two lacerated wounds on the scalp; they were in the same line, but there was a piece of sound integument between the two—he had lost a good deal of blood—the edge of a poker would produce such a wound.

Cross-examined. Q. I believe a round instrument will produce a clean cut? A. It will on the scalp; a wooden instrument might produce a wound of continuity on the scalp—I did not hear Mr. Debenham examined before or Mr. Serjeant.

GEORGE ALLISON (Police-inspector.) On the morning of 4th December, at a few minutes after 3 o'clock, I saw Brown and the prisoner at Poplar police-station—they made a complaint to me which I put down in the book before 6 o'clock, and made a report to my superintendent at once—in consequence of that charge I went to 4, Cahir-street, with Gower and the prisoner and another officer—I asked which was Barber's room, and went into it in consequence of what Brown told me—I went to look for Barber—I found several spots of blood in the passage near the parlour-door down stairs—I asked Mrs. Reid how it came there—she said that Barber and his wife had been fighting—I have been in the police twenty-two years.

Cross-examined. Q. I believe you were applied to to give the names of these two men? A. At the station, and I ordered the sergeant to give them at once—it was more than two days afterwards; it was before Thursday—it

was before Sunday came round again—Mr. Cannon was not there, nor did 1 see Mr. Cannon—I only saw police-constables and Mrs. Reid—I never went out of Barber's room—the police went upstairs—I went to 4, Cahir-street, which is about forty yards down.

JURY. Q. Did you trace from the house to see if there was any blood? A. No; I never looked for it; it was a winter's morning.

JOHN SOMERS (Policeman, K 372). I hzave been in the police eight and a half years, and acting sergeant for the last two years—on 4th December, I went with Allison to 4, Cahir-Street—I know William Brown, who was formerly in the force, and I know his beat—I had been round his beat that morning, and missed him from it—I met K 257 coming from the station; in consequence of what he told me I sent for my inspector—the door was opened by a young woman, and I saw Mrs. Reid there—I saw spots of blood in the passage—the inspector said, "Whose is that?"—Mrs. Reid said that Barber and his wife had been fighting—none of the people there made any complaint against any of the constables as to an attack having been made upon Mrs. Barber—I have known Brown about three years.

Cross-examined. Q. Are you sure it was the young woman or was it Mrs. Reid who answered? A. It WAS Mrs. Reid—I did not go before the Magistrate at Arbour-square—I was examined at Brown's trial for the first time, and then stated about Barber and his wife fighting—my inspector was present and heard it—I am not aware that I told the inspector that they had been fighting, and that he said "Well, I heard the same thing said"—it might have passed, but I do not recollect those words—when I was ex-amined at the trial he might have said, "Well, I heard the same thing said"—I did not go before the Magistrate.

EDWIN CLEAVES (Policeman, K 221.) I accompanied Inspector Allison, Somers, and Clares to 4, Cahir-street, on 4th December—we arrived at about half-past 3 or 4 in the morning—the inspector discovered some blood, and said to Mrs. Reid, who was in the passage, "How did that blood come here?"—she said, "Barber and his wife have, been fighting"—the others left, and I remained by the inspector's orders to see whether Barber would return, and apprehend him for an assault upon the prisoner.

Cross-examined. Q. Who was present when Mrs. Reid is alleged to have said that Barber and his wife had been fighting? A. I saw a girl and an old man; I believe that is him (Cannon)—I did not see Mrs. Cannon to my recollection—I mentioned this the same night to a brother constable—I did not know of the charge against Brown for assaulting Mrs. Barber—I was not before the Magistrate.

EDWARD MILTON . I am a chemist and druggist, of England-terrace, Millwall—on 3d December, I was at the Ironmongers' Arms from about twenty minutes past 10 till five minutes to 12, when it was closed—I went to transact a little business, and stood with a Mend in front of the bar—I saw no policeman come in for beer during the whole of that time—a police-man would have been somewhat conspicuous; it would be a treat to see one there.

Cross-examined. Q. Were you there till the house was closed? A. Yes—I never saw Brown till to-day.

SAMUEL HENRY LOW . I live at Hackney-wick—in December last I was barman to Mr. McDermott, Ironmongers' Arms, Millwall—on the night of 3d December, I was serving beer all the evening, up to the time of the house closing—I know the prisoner by sight, by being on the beat—he did not come into the house for anything to drink that evening—I saw no policeman

there—I was serving between 10 and 12 o'clock, and must have seen-him if he had come in to have anything to drink.

Cross-examined. Q. Are there different compartments in the bar? A. No, there were not at that time—two people were behind the bar besides me—I cannot say how many people came in between 10 and 12—we do not do much on Saturday night—I do not remember leaving the bar between 10 and 12—I was first asked to give evidence about six weeks ago, and then I remembered that no policeman had been in between 10 and 12 on Saturday.

COURT. Q. How were you able to remember, did you continue barman up to that time? A. No, I ceased on Boxing-day—it is a very uncommon thing for a policeman to come in—I do not remember any policeman on duty coming in to be served—I believe it is contrary to my master's license.


NEW COURT.—Monday, April 10th, 1865.

Before Mr. Common Serjeant

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-361
VerdictGuilty > lesser offence

Related Material

361. EDWIN SUTHERLAND (24) , Feloniously shooting at Thomas Jacobs, with intent to maim and disable him.

MR. LANGFORD conducted the Prosecution, and MR. SLEIGH the Defence.

THOMAS JACOBS . I live with my father at Norwood-green, near Hanwell, Middlesex—on 28th December, I was working with my father and some other men, on the canal that runs from Ealing to Brentford, near a bridge—about half-past 2, I went to the Victoria public-house to take back a bottle—on my way back towards the towing-path I met the prisoner and a boy—the prisoner had a double-barrelled gun, and a dog—the dog followed me for a few yards—as I got near the towing-path the prisoner came up to me, and he threw something at the dog—I said, "Don't do that"—he said no more, but came and caught bold of me and said, "Come along back with me"—I told him I was going on to the tow-path—I was then about twenty yards from it—I was not willing to go back, and he knocked me about; he hit me in the face, and the eye, and the nose—he threw me down, and jumped on me with his knees—he then said, "Go"—he meant go on to the towing-path—I did not go—I said I would go presently—he then bundled me across the ditch which divides the field from the tow-path—when I got on to the tow-path, I picked up a stone and said, "I will throw it; "he hallooed to the men at work on the path, and said, "I will give you something if you catch that boy"—when I had the stone in my hand, he put the gun to his shoulder, and kept it there—he said, "I will shoot you in the legs, and shoot you dead"—I then threw the stone, and he fired the gun—the shots hit me in the right side of the face, and the right side, and I fell—two men and the prisoner came up, and I was taken to the hospital—I was three or four weeks in St. Mary's Hospital.

Cross-examined. Q. What business had you on this land? A. I was going back with a bottle—I had been that way before, and nobody never said nothing to me—I did not hear the prisoner call out, "You have no business here; you are trespassing"—he said, "Where are you going?"—he told me to go off the land the way I had come—I did not make use of filthy language to him—there was a boy near the prisoner at the time; I don't know his name—that is the boy (looking at a boy named Guest)—I think the prisoner went with me to a house after I was shot—he did not

say to me, that he was extremely sorry it had happened, and that it was an entire accident—I did not hear him say it—he never came to me at the hospital at all—I did not say, "You b——"to him—I did not swear at him at all—I did not say, when he ordered me off the land, "You b——; you shall fight me"—I said, "I will hit you, if you hit me again"—he hit me before I hit him—I took off my coat; I did not say, "You b——; I will make you fight;" or anything of that kind—I live about two miles and a half from where this occurred—I went to school there—I was not turned out; I left it because my father wanted me to help work—I was in the employment of the Canal Company for eighteen months—I should have been there two years on 20th April—I am not there now—I left because my father wanted me at home—I got six shillings a week there—I got my victuals and clothes at home, and pocket—money—I don't know that the land is the prisoner's master's—it is Mr. Gurney's—I don't think the prisoner is his servant—I did not know it was his duty to be on the land to protect it—I had not seen him there before—I did not say to the prisoner when he said, "What are you doing there?" You b——; do you think I've come to steal your b——dog; "not a word—I did not make use of any foul Language at all—there was a ditch between us when he fired the gun—when I threw a stone at him, he did not then attempt to get over the ditch, and while he was doing so, the gun went off—he fired it off—he was just at the side of the ditch when he put the gun up to his shoulder—I did not afterwards see that his legs were covered with mud, as if he had fallen into the ditch.

COURT. Q. How old are you? A. Fifteen next September—I have got quite well of the wounds.

HENRY ABBOTT . I am a fishmonger at Hanwell—on Wednesday, 28th December, about half—past 2 in the afternoon, I was in a meadow adjoining where this occurred, on the other side of the canal—the first that I saw was the boy and Sutherland having a few words together, about coming that way back to his work, and the boy refused to go back again when Suther-land wished him—he then struck the boy in the face, and he fell to the ground—the boy got up and resisted, and Sutherland struck him again—I did not hear the boy make use of any bad language—I did not pay that attention—after some little while, Sutherland told him he could go across the ditch, and he bundled him across, as it were, in a hurry—the boy then immediately looked about for some stones—he got one or more, I can't say, and went back to the spot opposite Sutherland, and there he stood in the attitude of throwing a stone for two or three minutes—Sutherland said, "If you throw the stone, I will shoot you"—I should think he was ten yards from him at the time—the boy threw the stone, and the prisoner fired the gun—the boy fell to the ground bleeding—I was in a meadow opposite, at the other side of the canal.

Cross—examined. Q. About seventy yards off, I think? A. Sixty or seventy—I did not hear the lad say anything more than that be would not go—I did not pay particular attention to the language—I did not hear him make use of bad language—I heard him say he would not go back—I did not hear him call Sutherland a b——; Sutherland said, "What are you doing here? "or something of that kind—he said he had no business there—the boy said he was going to his work, he would not go back—the gun did not go off as the prisoner was attempting to get across the ditch—he did not attempt to get over the ditch after the boy; I swear that—the prisoner called out for assistance after the boy was shot—he called out to

Mr. Allen to take him to the nearest house for relief—he said, "It was an entire accident; I am very sorry"—all he did was in favour of the boy, as for as I saw—the prisoner did not point the gun from his shoulder—he had the butt under his arm in this position—he was then close on the brink of the ditch, and as the boy threw the stone the gun went off—the legs of the prisoner's trousers were dirty—the ditch was muddy and watery—he said to me, "Go and fetch a doctor, "and I ran above a mile for one—he offered some money, but I can't say what it was.

MR. LANGFORD. Q. He had to get through this ditch to get to the boy after he had been shot, I suppose? A. Yes.

JAMES ALLEN . I live at Norwood, in Middlesex—on Wednesday, 28th December, about half-past 2, I saw the prisoner on a piece of land with a gun, accompanied by a boy and a dog—the first I saw of this matter was the boy standing on the towing-path, and the prisoner standing in the field with his gun pointing towards the boy—I heard him say he would shoot him if he threw the stone—the boy was then from twenty-live to thirty feet from him—I was between seventy and eighty yards off—the boy threw the stone, and he fired the gun momentarily—it took the boy's right arm, and he fell down—I never heard the boy make use of bad language—Sutherland stood with his gun pointed at the boy for three or four minutes—the boy was threatening to throw the stone—I ran up to the boy after he was shot, and the prisoner came over the ditch, and said the boy had run against him, and shook him, and he offered me two shillings.

Cross-examined. Q. To get a doctor? A. No; I don't know what it was for—that lad (Guest) was within three or four yards of him when the gun went off—he did not say it was an entire accident; not to me; I was close by—I was within two yards of the boy when he shot him—he might have said it was an accident when we were at the house—I can't say how the gun was—it was in the direction of his shoulder—it was not under his arm he had it in the same position as if he was going to shoot a bird—I was close to him—I am sure he never loosed the gun out of his hand till he fired it off.

PHILIP GEORGE PHILPS . I am one of the late house-surgeons at St. Mary's Hospital—on 28th December, the boy Jacobs was brought there, and placed under my care—he was suffering from gunshot wounds in the right shoulder, and the right side of the face, and one shot in the right flank, on the right side—there were about twenty-five shots altogether, I think—I removed some of the shots—there are some of them in now—some will stop in always—there was a shot near the eye, but it had gone round the eye, and had not injured it—it is not extricated; he has it there now, it will be no injury to him—the shot in the side was not dangerous; it was very superficial—the shots were thickest about the right ear, and there I could not find that one shot was closer than half or three quarters of an inch to another—his eyes were bruised, and his nose was bruised on the bridge.

Cross-examined. Q. I believe the boy is now quite well? A. Yes; the shot in the integument may remain there all his life without being of the slightest inconvenience to him.

THOMAS JACOBS . I have not received any money from the prisoner on account of my son.

WILLIAM STANLEY (Policeman, G 304). I took the prisoner into custody on 28th December.

Cross-examined. Q. On the very day it occurred? A. Yes; about half an hour afterwards he said it was an entire accident, and he deeply regretted

it—he sent for a doctor, and sent for a cab to convey the boy to the hospital—lie sent for a couple of horses so that he might go quickly—there is another officer named Rose here—I never knew the prisoner before—when I told him I should take him into custody, he said it was purely an accident.

JAMES ROSE (Policeman, G 228). I saw the prisoner after he was taken—he stated that he was very sorry for it; that he did not intend to shoot him—he said the gun had gone off by accident—I have known him some time—I never knew anything of him.

Witness for the Defence.

ALFRED GUEST . I was staying with my brother at Rose-bank, Hanwell—I was in the fields when this accident occurred—I was about a yard from the prisoner—I was standing still—I heard the prisoner tell the prosecutor to go off the field—he said he would not go—the prisoner said, "You are trespassing"—the boy said, "The ground is not your's"—the prisoner said, "Never mind whose ground it is, you go off"—he told him to go across—he would not go—the prisoner took hold of his arm and held him across the ditch on the branch of a tree—he then took up some stones and threw one, and used some rather low words—the prisoner had the gun in his hand, and he jumped across the ditch, and then there was the report of the gun—the gun went off, and I saw the boy fall—the prisoner had not the gun pointed up to his shoulder as if he was going to shoot a bird—he was at the side of the ditch when the gun went off; he was almost at the side of the ditch, he was in the middle—I believe the gun went off accidentally—he had hold of the gun by the muzzle, rather in a slanting way, with the butt-end on the ground, at the bottom of the ditch—all the lower part of the gun was under water—the prisoner was in the ditch at the time.

Cross-examined. Q. He had a dog with him, had he not? A. Yes—I heard him tell Thomas Jacobs to leave the dog alone—he was coaxing it across the ditch on to the towing-path—a Mrs. Kay lives at Rose-bank cottage—I don't know where she is now, or Mr. Kay—the ditch is about 100 yards from the cottage—we had gone out shooting that morning—only one dog was kept at the house—there was a little one, that would be two—I am sure there were only two—I believe the prisoner is a builder—he has been at Rose-cottage about eighteen months—I knew him at Kew—he had left Kew about three months, and came to live at Mrs. Kay's—I don't know what Mrs. Kay is—I am in my father's office in Seething-lane—I don't know what he is.

MR. SLEIGH. Q. Has he an office of business there? A. Yes—he has had an office there six weeks—he lives at 9, Church-street, Trinity-square—he has lived there about eight months—my father is a Christian, and so is my uncle.

COURT. Q. How came you to be with the prisoner on this day? A. I went out with him when he was shooting—he is a relative, he is my brother, not my half-brother—he has taken the name of Sutherland some years—I was not called before the magistrate.

JAMES ROSE (re-examined). When I received the gun, there was mud on the butt-end of it.

GUILTY of unlawfully wounding.— Confined Twelve Months.

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-362
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

Related Material

362. THOMAS TAYLOR (46) , Unlawfully and knowingly having in his possession 10 counterfeit half-crowns, with intent to utter them.

MESSRS. CRAUFURD and COLERIDGE conducted the Prosecution.

JAMES BRANNAN . On 10th Match, about 2 o'clock, I was in Rose-street, Long Acre—I saw the prisoner there—I knew him before—I called him by name and said, "You are suspected of having counterfeit-coin in your possession; what have you got about you"—he said, "Nothing"—he pulled his hand from his coat-pocket and held it partly closed—I called Inspector Fife's attention to it, and he seized his hand, and took from it this parcel containing ten counterfeit half-crowns, wrapped separately in paper—I said, "They are bad"—the prisoner said, "I believe I know what they are Mr. Brannan, two men gave them to me, they are gone into Pepper's"—I said, "That can't be so, because I have had you under observation since you left the Lamb and Flag, and I have just come out of Pepper's myself"—the Lamb and Flag is nearly opposite Pepper's—I took him into custody.

Prisoner. Q. Do you say you saw me come down the street by myself? A. Yes; not a soul was with you.

The prisoner put in a written defence, stating that the parcel was given to him by two men to hold for a few minutes, and that the men had just left him when he was taken into custody. GUILTY . He also PLEADED GUILTY to a previous conviction in September, 1861.—** Seven Years' Penal Servitude.

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-363
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

Related Material

363. ANN SMITH (34) , Unlawfully uttering a counterfeit half-crown.

MESSRS. CRAUFURD and COLERIDGE conducted the Prosecution.

JOHN FOSTER . I keep the Crown public-house in Tothill-street, West-minster—On 17th March between 4 and 5 in the afternoon the prisoner came and asked for a quartern of gin, which came to 5d.—my son served her—I saw her put half-crown on the counter in payment—my son took it up—I took it out of his hand to try it, knowing the prisoner—I saw that it was bad—I went round and shut the door—she made a desperate attempt to get away—I asked her how many more she had got of that sort—she said none—I sent for a policeman, and gave him the half-crown.

JOHN FOSTER , Junr. The prisoner gave me the half-crown—I took it up and my father took it out of my hand.

JOHN BUTLER (Policeman, B 207). I took the prisoner into custody with the half-crown—in going to the station she tried to throw something away, but I prevented her—she was searched by a female at the station—the searcher called my attention to some coin in the fire that warms the cells, and said in the prisoner's presence that she had thrown it there—I found this coin in the fire—4 1/2 d. and a purse was found upon her.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . This is a bad half-crown, and this is part of one.

GUILTY .** She also PLEADED GUILTY to a previous conviction in January, 1862.— Five Years' Penal Servitude.

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-364
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

Related Material

364. THOMAS JENKINS (30), was indicted for a like offence.

MESSRS. CRAUFURD and COLERIDGE conducted the Prosecution, and MR. SHARPE the Defence.

AMELIA HARLOW . I am the wife of James Harlow, who keeps the Tilt Boat, Darkhouse-lane, Billingsgate—on 17th February, about 8 in the evening, the prisoner came in with a female—she asked for change for a sovereign—I had not got it—he asked for half a quartern of rum, and put down a 2s. piece—I gave him 1s. 9d. change, and he left—I put the 2s. piece on the sink separate—when the prisoner had gone I looked at it and saw it was bad—I broke it in two and gave it to my husband—he laid

it on a shelf in the bar, and I marked the date on the bar-parlour door—on the evening of 9th March the prisoner came again with a gentleman—he asked for half-a-quartern of rum, and gave me 1s. in payment—I gave him 9d. change, and passed the shilling to my husband—he told the prisoner it was a bad one, and he should send for a policeman—he broke the shilling in pieces before the prisoner, and threw them on the counter—he afterwards gave them to the policeman, and I took the florin to the station-house.

Cross-examined. Q. Is your husband here. A. No—I saw him give the shilling to the policeman—when my husband told him it was bad, he was standing close to him in front of the bar—I was inside the bar—he said he had been to Spitalfields and had got the money in the market—he afterwards said it was the Boro Market—he had some turnip-tops with him—before 17th February he used to come to the house nearly every day, bat from that time be never came again till 9th March—it was not the woman that tendered the 2s. piece—the prisoner took it out of his pocket.

GEORGE BITTLE (City Policeman, 579). The prisoner was given into my custody on 9th March, and I received the shilling and florin—the prisoner said he had received the shilling in change of half-a-crown, which he had paid for some turnip-tops in Spitalfields-market—I found 1d. on him.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . This is a bad florin, and a bad shilling.

The prisoner's statement before the Magistrate: "I know nothing at all about the two-shilling piece; I admit the shilling, but I did not know it was bad. I was not near the good lady's house on 17th February."

GUILTY .—she also PLEADED GUILTY to a previous conviction in January 1862.—** Seven Years' Penal Servitude.

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-365
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

Related Material

365. WILLIAM LAHO (27) , PLEADED GUILTY to Feloniously uttering counterfeit coin, after a previous conviction.

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-366
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty; Not Guilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

Related Material

366. WILLIAM LAHO (27), was again indicted, together with CORNELIUS CRONIN (24), JOHN WELCH (28), THOMAS BURKE (28), and THOMAS LAHO (21) , for unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.


MESSRS. CRAUFURD and COLERIDGE conducted the Prosecution; MR. SHARPS

appeared for Cronin, and MR. LEWIS for Thomas Laho.

WILLIAM HENRY MANLEY . I keep the Hope public-house, in Wilmot-street, Bloomsbury—on the evening of 12th March, close upon 8 o'clock, the prisoners came there with a woman—they called for two pots of beer—I can't say which spoke—a florin was given in payment—I can't say by which—I put it into the tilt, and gave one shilling and four penny pieces change there was no other florin in the till—after that, William Laho called for half-a-pint of rum, and gave me half-a-crown in payment—I put that into the till with the florin—there was no other half-crown there—William Laho afterwards called for a bottle of gin and a pot of beer—that came to 2s. 7d.—he gave me a half-crown and a penny piece in payment—I immediately broke the half-crown in the test and threw the pieces on the counter, and William Laho picked them up—I said, "Now then, what is the meaning of this?"—I was going round to detain him, and I was stopped by Burke by putting up his arm in front of me—the prisoners all went away, except Burke and Thomas Laho—I detained them, sent for a constable, and gave them into custody—I then went to the till and found the half-crown—I took it out and broke it, and gave it to the constable—I did not take out the

florin—I had not thought it was bad—there were only a few sixpences in the till—my wife was in charge of the bar after I went to the police-station.

Cross-examined by MR. SHARPE. Q. Were there a great number of persona drinking in your house? A. Only the prisoners at that one bar—there are two compartments—I can serve both without moing—my attention was particularly called to the prisoners by my wife.

Burke. Q. Was I not very drunk? A. No—I should say none of you were.

MR. COLERIDGE. Q. Did all the prisoners drink out of the first two pots of beer? A. They did—they all drank of the half-pint of rum—the bottle of gin and pot of porter I withdrew—they had not the chance of drinking that.

WILLIAM ALDER . I am a cab-proprietor—I was at Mr. Manley's house on the evening of 12th March—I was standing in what is called the private bar; not the same bar where the prisoners were, but at the side of it—I could see across to the bar where they were—there was a woman with them—I could not see her, but I could hear her voice—I heard Thomas Laho call for two pots of beer, and saw Mr. Manley serve him—he tendered a florin in payment—I saw Mr. Manley put it in the till and give 1s. 4d. change—I then went out for a short time—when I returned the prisoners were gone—I saw Mrs. Manley go to the till and take out a florin—she broke it and gave it to me, and I took it to the station.

MANLEY. About twenty minutes or half an hour after the prisoners had gone, I went to the till and found a bad florin—I gave it to Mr. Alder—I had not put any in the till.

GEORGIANA RITCHES , My husband keeps the Wheatsheaf, in Bloomsbury—on 12th March, about half-past 7 in the evening, the prisoners came there—Cronin called for two pots of porter, which he paid for with a good shilling—they all drank of it—William Laho then called for one pot, and paid for it with a good sixpenee—Thomas Laho then called for half-a-pint of gin, which came to 9d. and paid me with a bad half-crown—I bent it—it bent easily—I gave it back to him and told him it was bad—he said, "A bad one, is it?" and took it up—he said he had got no more money—the gin was paid for with 6d. and 2 1/2 d.—that was a halfpenny too little, but they said that was all the money they had got—they all drank of the gin—they were using very bad language, and my husband sent for a constable, but they left before he arrived.

Cross-examined by MR. SHARPE. Q. Were they rather the worse for liquor? A. No; they did not seem so—it was Welch that called for the single pot of porter—I took no money of Welch—I beard that there had been an Irish funeral that day—I did not see a great number of Irish in our house.

Burke. The funeral started not above 150 yards from your house, and after it was over about sixteen of us came in. Witness. I don't think there were so many—I did not notice you there until after all the others had left—I did not see a cabman treat you to two or three pots of beer—I saw a man they call Scandalous Jack there.

THOMAS OVERY (Policeman, E. 121) I took Burke and Thomas Laho into custody about 8 o'clock on this evening, and charged them with being con-cerned, with others, in passing bad money—Burke said he knew nothing about it—Thomas Laho said nothing—Burke had been drinking, but he knew what he was about—I found 5d. in copper on him, and on Thomas Laho 1s. 2d. and a knife—I afterwards took the other three prisoners in custody close to the station—they were all taken within five minutes—I found nothing on

Cronin or Welch—on William Laho I found a florin, 1s. 6d., and a penny, all good—I produce the half-crown which I received from Mr. Manley, and a florin from Mr. Alder.

Cross-examined by MR. SHARPE. Q. Were Cronin and Welch together? A. Yes; not with William Laho—Welch said he knew nothing whatever about it—they might have been drinking; they were capable of knowing what they were doing—there had been an Irish funeral that day, and a great many Irish followed it—the prisoners came out of the same court where the funeral went from.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . This half-crown and florin are bad.

The prisoners statements before the Magistrate:—"Cronin, Welch, and Burke say nothing. Thomas Laho says: 'My brother lent me the money I gave William Laho says: 'All I have got to say is, if there is any body in it it is me; these men are innocent."

Burke's Defence, After the funeral I went to have some refreshment; there were about sixteen of us. I did not go in with Laho at all. I did not do anything to the landlord; it was Laho shoved me in front of him. I am innocent of it.

Cronin, Welch, and Thomas Laho received good characters.


WILLIAM LAHO further PLEADED GUILTY to a previous conviction in 1861.—** five Years' Penal Servitude.

The following prisoners PLEADED GUILTY to uttering counterfeit-coin:—

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-367
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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367. MARIA JEFFREYS. (32) [Uttering counterfeit coin: See original trial image.] —* Confined Fifteen Months. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-368
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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368. ANN CARTER. (44) [Uttering counterfeit coin: See original trial image.] — Confined Six Months. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-369
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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369. ELIZABETH KING. (19) [Uttering counterfeit coin: See original trial image.] — Confined Nine Months. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-370
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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370. ANN GRANVILLE. (56) [Uttering counterfeit coin: See original trial image.]— Confined Six Months; and [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-371
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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371. JOHN JONES (59) [Uttering counterfeit coin: See original trial image.].—** Five Years' Penal Servitude. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-372
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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372. MARGARET ROBSON, (41) PLEADED GUILTY to unlawfully attempting to obtain certain moneys from Frederick Palmer and others by false pretences.—* Confined Two Years.

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-373
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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373. HENRY SMITH to feloniously forging and uttering two requests for 10l.— Confined Four Months. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-374
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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374. WILLIAM MITCHELL (27) , to stealing 48 towels, having been before convicted.— Confined Fifteen Months. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-375
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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375. JOHN WILLIAMS (54) , to stealing 2 watches, the property of George Attenborough.— Confined Twelve Months. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-376
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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376. HENRY HOUGHTON (38) , to embezzling and stealing 13l. 12s., and 10l. the moneys of George Heiron, his master.— Five Years' Penal Servitude; and [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-377
VerdictsGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentencesImprisonment > penal servitude

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377. WILLIAM HOLBERT (22) , to stealing a post-letter, whilst employed in the Post-office; also, to forging and uttering an endorsement on a bill of exchange for 59l. 12s.— Seven Years' Penal Servitude. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

OLD COURT.—Tuesday, April 11th, 1865.

Before Mr. Recorder.

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-378
VerdictGuilty > with recommendation
SentenceMiscellaneous > fine

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378. JOHN COLBORNE (35), was indicted for a libel upon Phineas Davis, to which a justification was pleaded.

MESSRS. GIFFARD, Q. C. and POLAND conducted the Prosecution; MR. COLERIDGE, Q. C. with MR. SLEIGH, the Defence.

WILLIAM BUSH . I am an architect and surveyor, and lately resided at 12, Greville-road, St. John's-wood, but I now reside in Mortimer-road, St.

John's-wood—on 4th January, I went with the prisoner's brother to 147, Fleet-street, the office of the Publishing Company—I there purchased this pamphlet (produced.)

Cross-examined by MR. COLERIDGE. Q. What made you go? A. Mr. Davis said that such a publication was out, and asked me to purchase it—Mr. Davis's brother, Mr. John Davis, asked me to go with him; I was with him, and he said he was going down Fleet-street to buy the pamphlet—I bought it.

HENRY JOHNSON . I am a printer, and carry on business with Mr. Carter at 9, West-street, Soho—I know the defendant—on 20th December, he brought me a manuscript—I afterwards printed this pamphlet by his direction.

GUILTY.—Strongly recommended to mercy by the Jury, inasmuch as they thought it ought not to have been brought into a Criminal Court.Fined 20l.

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-379
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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379. JOHN SADLER, (43) was indicted for embezzlement.

MR. PATER conducted the Prosecution, and MR. COOPER the Defence.

JOHN CHARLES ADNAM . Until lately I was in partnership with my brother, Joseph Adnam, and carried on business as spice merchants in Maiden-lane—the prisoner was in our service as traveller—he received a salary of 35s. a week—his duties were to take orders and receive monies, and account to me for them—he used to remit a certain amount in the course of the week, and at the end of the journey he made up his book, and handed over the balance—he made use of a portion of the money to pay his expenses, and for his salary during the journey—in June 1864, I received a letter from a customer in the country—I believe the prisoner was then on his journey—when be came home I told him that I had received a letter from Messrs. Walters and Co. of Bristo I, stating that they had paid him an account for which I had applied to them—he said he had received the amount—I asked him if there were others—he said, "Yes, there were two or three others, "and either my brother or I requested him to give us a list—this is the list (produced)—I can't exactly say when I received that from him, but I should think it must have been in October—he had previously told me he thought the amounts he had received were between 20l. and 30l.—when he handed me this list I said, "This much exceeds the sum you told me, this represents about 50l.,"—I asked him to give me a perfect list of the sums he had received—after he gave me that list he continued in the same position, so far as regards the collection of money, but afterwards he represented Messrs. Hicks—I still allowed him to collect my debts—after he left me to go to Messrs. Hicks, I ascertained that that list was not complete—this list contains a statement of the amounts which the prisoner had to collect upon his last journey—the writing on the left-hand side, where the amounts are debited, is a clerk's writing, and it was the prisoner's duty to enter what he collected on the right-hand side—Mr. Carter's name is down as a debtor to the. firm for 11l. 3s., 3d.—on the opposite side there is an entry of 4l. 14s. 6d. in the prisoner's writing as received on 31st May, 1864, but that was really paid in a prior journey, and on 31st May he received 6l. 9s. 9d.—Mr. Stone is put down as a debtor for 7l. 8s. 4d.—there does not appear to have been anything collected there—the name of William Candy is down for 5l. 12s. 7d. and nothing received—I have looked through his book—I do not find any entries of money having been paid by Mr. Stone or Mr. Candy—it was the prisoner's duty to enter the sums received

—the dates are in the prisoner's writing—neither Mr. Carter's, Mr. Stone's, or Mr. Candy's accounts are included in the list he gave me.

Cross-examined. Q. What was the prisoner first of all? A. He came as an engineer, about eleven years since—he continued in that capacity between two and three years, then a Mr. Hawkins, a traveller, left and the prisoner was placed in his situation—he took four quarterly journeys to the West of England—he had about 300l. or 400l. to collect each journey—we first gave him 32s. a week, and then 35a.—he was also to have a present of 10l. at Christmas—we paid his expenses—I remember his complaining to me of not having enough for his journeys and expenses, and Calling rather behind—I can't say that that was the first time of his falling behind, because there was a falling behind before be commenced as traveller—he married a second time—I took a mortgage of his wife's property—I found that he was about 60l. behind—we were told the mortgage was worth about 20l.; that there was about 20l. coming to him—I don't know what the property consisted of—he had received 100l.—after he had given this security he continued on with me and my brother—our profits did not keep increasing while he was traveller; they kept about the same—he kept receiving about the same amount each quarter—my brother and I ceased our partnership in December last year—the prisoner then continued on with me for some time, until he went to Mr. Hick's, who carries on a similar business—I knew where to find the prisoner—I did not always find him right and regular in his transactions; sometimes there were deficiencies—I did not always call his attention to all the names in the list—I did to some—I used to say why has so and so not paid—I can't swear that I did that with respect to these three sums.

MR. PATER. Q. When was the security taken for the amounts received, the abstracted balances? A. In October, 1863; that list was made out in October, 1864—at the time I received that list I believed it to contain all the sums he had received on behalf of the firm.

THOMAS CABTER . I am a grocer at Henley-on-Tbames—I was a customer of Messrs. Adnam—in May, 1864, I paid the prisoner on their account 6l. 9s. 9d. and received this receipt—I had previously paid him 4l. 14s. 6d. in February.

Cross-examined. Q. Had you dealt with the prosecutor through the prisoner some years? A. Yes; not largely—I have known and respected the prisoner very much—he appeared to do ail he could for the business.

JOHN LAWRENCE STONE . I am a grocer at Turyford, Berks—on 2d June I paid the prisoner 7l. 8s. 4d. on account of Messrs. Adnam, by cheque—he gave me this receipt at the time.

Cross-examined. Q. Have you dealt some years with Messrs. Adnam? A. Yes—I have paid the prisoner considerable sums during that time—I was well known to the Messrs. Adnams' as a customer—I never was at their premises.

WILLIAM CANDY . I am a grocer at Wargrave, Berks—on 2d. June, 1864, I paid to the prisoner, on account of Messrs. Adnam, 5l. 12s. 7d.—he gave me this receipt.

Cross-examined. Q. Have you dealt with Messrs. Adnam some years? A. Yes, about four years—I never called at their place—the prisoner seemed to do his duty as a traveller, and push the business.

JAMES SWAIN . I am a grocer at Weybridge, in Surrey—I paid the prisoner 6l. 13s. 10d. in June last, on account of Messrs. Adnam.

MR. ADNAM (re-examined.) I have not received the sums mentioned from Stone, Candy, and Swain.

GUILTY .— Confined Eighteen Months.

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-380
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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380. GEORGE WINDER, (16) Stealing 38 pieces of printed paper, the property of Horace Brooks Marshall and another.

MR. PATER conducted the Prosecution, and MR. RIBTON the Defence.

JOHN JOHNSON . I am a porter in the employ of Alfred Marshall and another, publishers of 125, Fleet-street—on Wednesday, 8th March, I was In the warehouse—there was a cab at the door—I saw the prisoner put his arm through the cab-window, take out a parcel, and run away—I told Mr. Morgan, the foreman, and we followed him, and came up with him in St. Bride's avenue—I had lost sight of him, but I am sure he is the same person—he was in the act of tearing the cover off the parcel—he said it was a little boy that took the parcel out of the cab.

Cross-examined. Q. Did you actually see him go to the cab? A. Yes, and take the parcel out—I caught him about thirty or forty yards from the place—the parcel thirty numbers of Punch.

JOHN MORGAN . I am foreman at Messrs. Marshall's—I have heard Johnson's evidence—it is correct.

GUILTY .— Confined Four Month.

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-381
VerdictGuilty > lesser offence; Guilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment; Imprisonment > penal servitude; Imprisonment > penal servitude

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381. JOHN CAMPBELL (44), JAMES ROBERTS (42), EDMUND COLLINS, (31) and ROBERT WHITE , (46) Feloniously breaking and entering the warehouse of John Henry Crane, and stealing 50 revolver pistols, value 130l., his property. Second Count, feloniously receiving the same.

MR. PATER conducted the Prosecution.

JOHN HENRY CRANE . I am an agent for the sale of firearms, and carry on business at 6, Birchin-lane—I occupy the second-floor—no one sleeps on the premises—I always lock up my premises when I leave—on Saturday evening, 4th March, about 6 o'clock, I secured the place in the usual way—I locked my own door with the ordinary lock, and also padlocked it on the outside—I left about 150 pistols in the warehouse, besides other firearms—when I arrived on Monday morning I found the premises had been entered, and missed thirty-eight pistols, worth about 130l.—the padlock had been wrenched off the door—I have looked at these pistols (produced by Hancock) they are my property.

Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE (for Roberts). Q. Does any one live on the premises? A. No; it is let out in offices—I did not fasten the street door—Mr. Chamberlain, the proprietor, did that.

JOHN CHAMBERLAIN . I am an umbrella maker, and occupy the shop floor at 6, Birchin-lane—on Saturday evening, 4th March, I secured the premises by locking the front door, and bolting it on the inside—I was the last to leave—I left by the back door, and fastened it with two patent locks—there are these iron gates, which I padlocked—I found the locks perfectly secure on Monday morning—my shop was in the same condition, but on missing a bag I went upstairs, and found that the first and second floors had been broken open—I immediately called in the police.

Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. Q. What time did you leave on the Saturday? A. The clock had struck 7—I went back a few minutes before 9 on Monday morning—no one lives in any part of the premises.

COURT. Q. In what state did you find the front door? A. Secure, but the key which I had left in it was gone, and it was unbolted—the persons had let themselves out that way.

FREDERICK WILLIAM JURY . I am assistant to Mr. Folkard, a pawnbroker, 160, Black friars-road—on Tuesday, 7th March, the prisoner Roberts brought this pistol to pledge; he asked 30s. on it—we had previously had notice from the police that there had been some stolen—I stopped it, and handed it to my employer, who sent me to the police-station for a constable, to whom he handed the pistol—Roberts said he had got it to pledge, and all he got over 1l. he was to have himself—he did not say whose it was.

Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. Q. Are you sure this was on the 7th? A. Yes, about half-past 3 or from that to 4 o'clock in the day—I did not hear him give any name.

EDWARD HANCOCK (City-policeman). On 6th March, I went to 6, Birchin-lane, and examined the premises—on the first-floor I found the door post of an office had been cut away in order to release the lock; the desks in the office had been forced, and a cash-box forced open—on the second floor, the offices of Mr. Crane, I found marks on the door which corresponded with this jemmy (produced)—I found no other marks of violence on Mr. Crane's place—on the same day I went to Mr. Folkard's, a pawnbroker's, in Black-friars-road, and gave him some information respecting these pistols—on Wednesday, 8th, I went to the Southwark Police-court, and took charge of the prisoner Roberts—I told him he was charged with breaking and entering the warehouse of Mr. Crane, No. 6, Birchin-lane, City, on the night of the 4th, and stealing a large quantity of pistols—I said, "You will also be charged with stealing this pistol, "alluding to the one produced by the last witness—he said, "Oh, I had it from a man in the Blackfriars-road, at a public-house; I was to have all that I received over 1l. for it"—I asked him if he knew that man—he said, "No"—I asked him if he could find the man—he said if he had time—I then took him to the station, searched him, and found on him 22s.; one shilling bad, and twenty-one good—at the police-station I asked him for his address; he declined to give it—he said he was of no occupation—I have since found his address—on 3d April I took the prisoner White into custody in Stamford-street, Blackfriars-road—I said, "Bob, I want you"—he said, "What for?"—I said, "For being concerned with, Jemmy the Penman, and others, now in custody, charged with breaking and entering the premises of Mr. Crane, in Birchin-lane, City"—he at that time made no answer—on the way to the station he said on the Monday following the robbery you took six pistols to Israel's, in Long-lane, Bermondsey—he said, "Yes, I did, and those six and the seventh that Mr. Folkard of Blackfriars-road has, were all I had to deal with"—the charge was read over to White at the police-station, and he was asked to account for the possession of the pistols—he said, "I decline to do so"—on 14th March I received these five pistols from a person of the name of Parker.

JOHN RUDDICK (City-policeman. 534) I went to Mr. Crane's premises—I there found this jemmy, a lantern, a lock, a cash-box lying on the third floor stairs—I found the padlock of the door on the ground forced open.

BENJAMIN CUNNINGHAM . I am assistant to Mr. Byas, a pawnbroker, of 147, St. George-street, Ratcliff-highway—I produce a revolver pledged on 7th March by Roberts—I advanced on it 1l. 2s.

Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. Q. Are you sure Roberts is the person? A. Quite sure—I had not known him before—he was introduced to me by a respectable tradesman in the neighbourhood, who came with him to pledge it—it was a person of the name of Savile.

COURT. Q. In what name was it pledged? A. James Roberts, 10, Albany-road, Old Kent-road.

CHARLES POTTER . I am assistant to Mr. Hastiugs, pawnbroker, of 190, Union-street, Boro'—I produce a revolver pledged on 7th March, by the prisoner Roberts—there were two together; they said it belonged to them,—the other one offered to sell me one, but they said it belonged to the two—I bought one, and I produce it—he said they had half a dozen, which they had bought; some that had been made up cheap for America, and they had only two left—I advanced 15s. on the one that I took in pledge—it was pledged in the name of John Roberts, of 10, Albany-road.

JOHN HENRY CRANE (re-examined.) I recognise both these pistols produced by last witness—I recognise them all, the one pledged at Mr. Hastings and the one at Mr. Byas—they are my property; the value of them is about 7l. and those three about 50s. each—they were a portion of the missing pistols which were safe on Saturday, 4th March, when I left.

MR. METCALFE Q. Had you seen them yourself? A. Decidedly; before I left on that Saturday evening—they had been lying on my bench for a long time; in fact they were my sample pistols—I recognise all these produced as my property.

HENRY PARKER . I am assistant to Mr. Folkard, pawnbroker, of 160, Blackfriars-road—I know the prisoner White; not by name—he pledged in the name of Martin—lie came to the shop on Saturday night, 4th March, about 9 o'clock, and offered these two revolvers to pledge—I advanced 2l. 5s. on them—they were pledged in the name of Martin of Webber-row—he said they belonged to a friend of his who had bought very largely for the Federal army, and this was superfluous stock that he had for sale—on the same evening, afterwards he bought five others which he wanted to dispose of; he wanted 7l. 10s. for them—I said I had no time then to go into the particulars of value, but if he felt disposed, I would let him have 5l., and if he would call again on Monday or Tuesday, I would ascertain the value and give him the value of them—I think be called on the Monday or Tuesday; in the meantime Hancock had called on me, and when White came again, I said to him, "These things are stolen; I expect you will refund me the money"—he said, "They don't belong to me; they belong to a friend of mine, at all events I will get you the money"—he went out, and in about half an hour he came back and brought me 6l. 10s. of the money—he said he would give me the other in the morning, and I retained the pistols—I have since given them up to Hancock—I have known him for some time as pledging at the other shop—I always thought he was a commercial man, trading and attending sales and so forth—he had always gone in the name of Martin.

RICHARD EDMONDS (Police-inspects L). Between 9 and 10 o'clock on 17th March, I found a letter and A brown-paper parcel on my desk at the police-station in Tower-street—it contained this revolver—I gave instructions to a constable, and the prisoner Collins was apprehended—I saw him at the station at 2 o'clock the same day—I told him I should apprehend him for being concerned with others in stealing a quantity of pistols in the city—he said that he had sold one to the grocer at the corner by the Windmill—he also said that he had had a row with Jack about five, meaning Campbell—I asked him who Jack was—he said "Jack Campbell, you know, and these five were found in a dust heap at the back of the Windmill, and Jack had them"—I showed him the pistol that was left at the station—he said it was the one he had sold to Jones the grocer.

Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON (for Collins). Q. Do you know anything of Collins? A. As a costermonger and general dealer in the street—I was

afterwards told that he had been to the station between 10 and 11 o'clock—I was not then there; Sergeant Wells was—he is not here—I can't say whether he left his address—I know him well being in the vicinity—I have no doubt that he then left information with reference to this affair of the pistols—I know Mr. Wootton; he keeps the Windmill—I had Collins apprehended by two men—he was sent for to the station in consequence of the contents of the letter found on my desk—that letter was in Jones's handwriting.

JOSEPH WOOTTON . I keep the Windmill public-house, in the New-cut Lambeth—I know all the prisoners—they used my house—on Monday, 6th March, I saw Campbell with one of these pistols in his possession—he was showing it—I saw White sometime afterwards join him, and in the course of the day I saw Roberts, or Dick, as I call him—I saw Campbell showing him a revolver—Campbell asked me to buy one, but I said I did not want one—next day Campbell left two in my charge—I lent him 12s. on them till next morning, when he said he had a customer for them—he returned me the money next morning, and took them away—they were pistols of a similar description to these—I had seen the prisoners almost every day previous to the 6th of March—I had not seen Roberts for weeks before—the others I had seen almost every day—they are living in the street—Campbell and Collins were in and out of my house all the evening of Saturday, 4th March—I have no doubt that Collins was in my house on the 6th; I could not swear it—I did not see any pistols in his charge.

Cross-examined by MR. COOPER (for Campbell). Q. I suppose you are a well known victualler thereabouts? A. Yes—the pistols were exposed in the moat open way, there was nothing secret about it—any of the public coming in would see them as well as myself—I knew Campbell well—I can only speak of the pistols being similar to these—a lot of customers looked at them and handled them—Campbell was in and out of the house all the Saturday evening—he was there from 7 o'clock till 9 or 10—he might have been in and out all the time—they live close by and they are always in and out.

COURT. Q. Was he in and out from 7 to 9? A. Yes; he might have been in all that time; we are very busy on Saturday nights—they were in and out so often that I did not miss them.

Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. Q. Who first produced the pistols? A. I saw Campbell with the first one—he took it out of his pocket and was showing it before the bar; anybody could see it—I only saw one the first occasion—I never saw more than two at once—that was the time he left me two to take care of—he took them out of his pocket.

Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. You had known Collins for some time, had you not? A. Yes; I saw him on the 10th and told him there was little doubt that the pistols were stolen—I also told him he had better go to the station and tell them what he knew about it—that I understood he bad sold one to Jones, and the best thing he could do was to go to the station and tell the truth—I had no notion at first that they were stolen—these things are in the market now for the war in the States—he left my house with the intention of going to the station—he said Campbell had given him one of the pistols to sell, and he had sold it to Jones—that was on Saturday evening, 11th—I knew that he lived close by in Windmill-street—he was very frequently at my house—I have known him about ten years—I always thought him a hard-working man—he works at the gas-house in winter time

and in the summer he sells fruit about the streets—I never heard anything against him.

MR. COOPER. Q. What is the distance from Birchin-lane to your house? A. It is a shilling cab fare, something over a mile; very nearly two miles.

BENJAMIN HAYNES . I keep the Mitre Tavern, Broadwall—I know Camp-bell—I can't say how recently before 4th March I saw him at my house, or how recently before he was taken into custody—it was about 7th or 8th March; I paid so little attention to it—a tall gentleman with Campbell offered me a six-barrelled revolver for sale for 2l.—it was something like those produced—the tall man took it out of his pocket, and Campbell asked me if I wished to purchase such a thing, and I said no.

RICHARD JONES . I am manager to Mr. Matthews, a grocer, in New Cut, Lambeth—I know Collins and Campbell—on Monday, 6th March, Collins came to my shop and showed me a revolver—he asked me to purchase it of him—I asked what he wanted—he said 2l. 10s.—he took it away and brought it back and said he was selling it for another man, the man wanted 25s. and he was to have all he got over—I gave him 26s. at last—he said he wanted 1s. for himself—I saw him again the same afternoon—he then wanted me to buy two more and three duplicates referring to revolvers—I saw the duplicates; they are not here—I believe they have been destroyed—a coster-monger in the Cut told me they had been burnt—I did not purchase them—I made some communication to the police, and saw Inspector Edmonds.

Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. Did another man come with him? A. No, no one—I know Campbell by sight—he was not with him.

HENRY MORTON (Policeman. L 63) I apprehended Campbell at the Windmill public-house on 10th March—I said to him "Johnny, I want you for being concerned with a man in custody, for having committed a bur-glary in the city, and a quantity of pistols being stolen, also for since dealing with that property"—he said, "I have not been dealing with the property"—I said, "I was in the Windmill on Tuesday, and I saw you put one over the bar"—he said, "I did not put it over"—I said, "You were there, and I find from inquiries that you left two at the Windmill all night, and received some money upon them"—he said, "A man brought them to me and asked me to sell them for him; I did not know that they were stolen, I thought they were mace goods"—that means getting goods by false pretences, not intending to pay for them—"as soon as I knew they were stolen I gave them to the man. He took them away. I could not dispose of them. I will do the best I can to assist you in getting the property back."

Cross-examined by MR. COOPER. Q. Was not what he said, "I will do the best I can to find out who the persons were that brought the property to me?" A. Yes—I searched his house and found nothing there—I had liberty to go all over the whole of it—he is a smith by trade I believe.

COLLINS received a good characterGUILTY on the Second Count Confined Six Months. —CAMPBELL, ROBERTS, and WHITE GUILTY on the First Count. —CAMPBELL, Ten Years' Penal Servitude. —ROBERTS and WHITE, Seven Years' Penal Servitude.

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-382
VerdictsGuilty > unknown; Guilty > pleaded guilty

Related Material

382. WILLIAM ROBINSON (17) , Feloniously forging an endorsement on an order for the payment of 7l. 16s. with intent to defraud.

MESSRS. SLEIGH and POLAND conducted the Prosecution; MR. RIBTON the


CHARLES HUMPHREYS . I am one of the cashiers of the Alliance Bank, Lothbury—we have a branch bank at Manchester—I produce a letter of

advice which I received from the branch at Manchester—it relates to a draft for 7l. 16s. in favour of Quinn, Rose, & Co.—this draft was presented at the bank in London on 11th February—I paid the person who presented it 7l. 16s. in gold and silver—I noticed that it corresponded with the letter of advice.

JAMES COLLINS . I am a merchant carrying on business at Manchester under the firm of Collins & Co.—in February last, I was indebted to Messrs. Quinn, Rose, & Co. in the sum of 7l. 16s., and on 10th of that month I obtained a draft at the Manchester branch of the Alliance Bank for 7l. 16s. payable to Quinn, Rose, & Co.—I happened to post the letter myself in which I sent it, along with a number of other remittances of a similar nature.

AUGUSTA MATILDA ROSE . I am a widow, and carry on business as a book-binder at 50, Moorgate-Street under the firm of Quinn, Rose, & Co.—the prisoner had been in my service eight months up to 11th February—on that day I sent him out to post some letters—I won't be sure that there was one addressed to Collins & Co., Manchester; I don't remember—I did not see him after that on that day—he did not come back to my service—Messrs. Collins & Co. were indebted to me in the sum of 7l. 16s.—I did not receive a letter from them on that day enclosing a draft—the prisoner had no authority to open my letters—the endorsement on this draft is not my hand-writing, or written by any one with my authority—the endorsement is "Quinn, Rose, & Co,"—the prisoner had no authority from me to make that or any other endorsement—according to my belief, it is in his handwriting—it is slightly an imitation of mine.

Cross-examined. Q. What position was the prisoner in, was he the only clerk? A. He was an assistant; he was not exactly a clerk—there was no one else to help him—he assisted me—he sold everything that was asked for, but he had no management of the business—I was never absent more than one day at a time—no one lives in the house but the housekeeper—if I was away the prisoner would manage in my absence for me—I have never been away for three days together—I would not swear I have not been away two days—the letters were always left until I came back, to the best of my judgment, I believed so, I expected so—the prisoner has never opened letters for me that I am aware of—I remember his father coming during the week that he stayed away—I told his father that I was very sorry for him; I did feel sorry—he did not bring the boy back with him then; he did the following week—the prisoner engaged himself as fifteen years old to me—I felt very sorry for him; I don't remember crying—I did not tell his father that I did not restrict him in anything, because I restricted him in opening the letters—I live in the country—I may have been away two days, but not frequently; never been away more—I should have expected the letters to remain if I had stayed away a week—I did not find that he opened my letters for me; certainly not.

MR. SLEIGH. Q. When he came back you sent for a police-constable and gave him into custody? A. Yes—when I was away for a day I always found my letters left for me unopened.

WILLIAM GOODWIN (City-policeman. 144) I took the prisoner into custody.

Cross-examined. Q. Bid you find Mrs. Rose in a state of great distress? A. She seemed rather excited; she was not crying.

Draft read:—"10th February, 1865. Draft for 7l. 16s. payable to the order of Messrs. Quinn, Rose, & Co., for J. Marking; endorsed, Quinn, Rose, & Co. "

MR. RIBTON to MRS. ROSE. Q. I suppose you knew the prisoner's former

employers? A. Yes—I received a good character with him from the employer from whom I had him.

MR. RIBTON called

WILLIAM ROBINSON . I am a commercial traveller—the prisoner is my son—he had been into one or two employments before this and always conducted himself satisfactorily—I remember going to Mrs. Rose's on 16th February—she told me what had taken place, and she was sorry to say that my son had proved inattentive to business, and she was afraid he had got hold of some bad company—she also told me that he had used some money of her's previously, and paid it to her when he could; on one or two occasions; but she said he was a youth she was very fond of, he was an intelligent lad, and she talked to hint, and he cried to her, and she cried with him; she also Said she should be sorry to see his prospects damaged in life—she told me that he had full power to act in the business the same as she did herself, and she placed no restriction in his way, because she had full confidence in him—not a word was said about letters, but she told me this, that she forgave him what be had done, and I told her that I did not wish her to lose the money, I would pay her what deficiency there was—she said she did not wish that—I said, "When he comes back I hope you will keep a watch on him"—he was not well at that time, and I took him back on the Monday—Mrs. Rose then called a policeman and gave him in charge—she said she had given him full power to collect all moneys and to manage the business the same as she did herself.

Cross-examined. Q. Have you ever had any other name but Robinson? A. My name is William Wright Robinson—I have passed under the name of Wright—MRS. Rose did not tell me that they had missed goods from their establishment which they were unable to trace, but which had been entered in the name of Wright, that I am aware of—I will not swear that she did not.

MR. RIBTON. Q. In what way have you passed in the name of Wright? A. I have, for this reason, because at one time I got into difficulties, and I was obliged to go away, and I did not want to get into trouble—I should think that was two years ago—my son was in the service of Mr. Barnes—he is here.

WILLIAM BARNES gave the prisoner a good character.

COURT to MRS. ROSE. Q. When did you learn about this draft? A. When he told me—I did not know it when I saw the father.

GUILTY .— Confined Eighteen Months.

He also PLEADED GUILTY to a charge of embezzlement.

The following prisoners PLEADED GUILTY:—

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-383
VerdictsGuilty > pleaded guilty

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383. HENRY STEWART (20) ; to stealing I opera glass, the property of Charles Letts; and also to embezzling 2l. 1s., 1l. 7s., and 1l. 18s. of Thomas Letts, his master.— Confined Twelve Months. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-384
VerdictsGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentencesImprisonment > penal servitude

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384. JAMES WHITTINGHAM (32) , to five indictments for forging and uttering authorities for the payment of 9l. 5s. 6d., 8l. 19s. 7d., 9l. 16s. 6d., 8l. 14s. 6d., and 7l. 18s. 9d.— Five Years' Penal Servitude. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-385
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

Related Material

385. JOHN MASON (20) , to stealing I set of harness, the property of William Simmons.— Confined Three Months. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-386
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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386. HENRY PARRACK (33) , to embezzling the sums of 3l. 4s. 2d., 3l., and 1l. 19s. of James Dalton and another, his masters.— Confined Four Months. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-387
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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387. WILLIAM COOMBS (47) , to stealing 60 lbs. weight of butter, the property of Stephen Bristowe; and also to a former conviction, in May, 1860, in the name of William Jackson.—* Confined Twelve Months. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-388
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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388. JAMES HILEY (54) , to forging and uttering an order for the payment of 35l. with intent to defraud.— Five Years' Penal Servitude. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-389
VerdictsGuilty > pleaded guilty

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389. JANE BEERE (17) , stealing 3 5l. Bank notes, the property of James Alexander; also, to stealing I mantle, and other articles, the property of Letitia Jane Goldsmith, her mistress.— Confined Twelve Months. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-390
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

Related Material

390. EMMA SMITH (25) , stealing I jacket, the property of David Lonsdale.— Confined Four Months , [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-391
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

Related Material

391. NEHEMIAH GRIFFITHS MORTON (22) , to two charges of obtaining money from Dudley Rolls under false pretences.— Five Years' Penal Servitude. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-392
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude; Imprisonment

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392. ROBERT ROWLAND (24), and WILLIAM BELL (18) , to a burglary in the dwelling—house of John Young, and stealing 50 warrants, and other articles, the property of Henry Browning and others.— ROWLAND* Five Years Penal Servitude , BELL Confined Nine Months ; [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-393
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

Related Material

393. GEORGE POWELL (33) , to feloniously receiving 540 yards of silk, value 90l., the property of Charles Candy.— Confined Nine Months ; and [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-394
VerdictsGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentencesNo Punishment > sentence respited

Related Material

394. MICHAEL MILES (18) , to two charges for forging an order for the delivery of a sack of oats; also, to stealing 6s. the property of James Whelan. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.] Judgment Respited.

NEW COURT.—Tuesday, April 11th, 1865.

Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-395
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

Related Material

395. ELLEN HUTCHINSON, (20) Unlawfully uttering counterfeit—coin.

MR. CRAUFURD conducted the Prosecution.

THOMAS WATSON . I am an oil and colour man of Grove—street, South Hackney—on 4th February the prisoner came for a bottle of pickles which came to 10 1/2 d., she gave me a crown—I put it to ray teeth, found it bad and asked her where she got it, she said that she did not exactly know—I asked her who the pickles were for, she said for herself—I asked her where she came from, she said she did not know—I gave her in charge with the crown.

WILLIAM DEAN. (Policeman, N, 365.) I took the prisoner and Mr. Watson gave me this bad crown—she gave her name at the station as Ellen Fraser and was remanded and discharged.

Prisoner. Q. Did not I tell you where I got it? A. You said you were an unfortunate girl and that a gentleman gave it to you.

RACHEL TRENNER . I live with my father, a picture—frame maker, of 36, Church—street, Shoreditch—on 1st March the prisoner came and asked the price of a pair of pictures; I told her 1s., she gave me a bad crown—I said, "I think this is bad"—I called my father who tried it, and told me to take it to one of the neighbours, I did so, found it was bad and she was given in custody—she said, "I will go and change it and leave my bag while I go, "but my father would not let her.

THOMAS FARRANCE . (Policeman, H, 138.) I took the prisoner and received this bad crown—she gave her name Ellen Richardson, I wrote it down at the time—she showed me a purse with 2d. in it—she said at the station that a gentleman gave her the coin.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . I am Inspector of coin to Her Majesty's Mint—These coins are both bad.

The prisoner's statement before the Magistrate—" I said so to the constable as I was coming along; I said I was very unfortunate, I was served so before; he said I might have had it given to me for it looked a very good one.

Prisoner's Defence. I cannot tell bad silver from good silver, when people impose upon me.


10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-396
VerdictGuilty > unknown

Related Material

396. GEORGE PRESTON (35), was indicted for a like offence.

MESSRS. CRAUFURD and COLERIDGE conducted the Prosecution.

JANE SKEATE . My husband keeps the Brittania public—house, James-street, Covent—garden—on Wednesday, 22d February the prisoner came in for a pint of beer which came to 2d., he gave me 1s., I put it in the till, there were only two sixpences there—I gave him a 6d. and 4d. in copper—shortly afterwards he called for another pint of beer and gave another shilling, I took it to my husband, found it was bad and the prisoner was given in custody—my husband took out the first shilling directly I put it in, and I saw him show it to Ackrill the policeman who received the two shillings—I told Ackrill that the prisoner was putting something into his mouth, and he and two or three more took the prisoner by the throat.

WILLIAM ACKRELL (Police-Sergeant, F, 15.) About eleven o'clock on that night I was on duty in Covent—garden, and saw the prisoner in New-street—I watched him into a public—house there—I looked in, he looked round and came out and walked towards Covent—garden market—I followed him to the Britania and saw him put 1s. on the counter, Mrs. Skeate served him, she gave him 1s. and some coppers in change and made a communication to Mr. Skeate who went to the till—about twenty minutes afterwards the prisoner called for another pint of beer and put down another shilling, he got the change and Mr. Skeate gave him in custody—I searched him, he put his hand in his waistcoat pocket and took out a handful of shillings and put them in his mouth—I saw three—I threw him on his back but was unable to get it out for the blood gushed out of his mouth, but I could feel the shillings going down his throat—if I had not let go I should have choked him—I took him to the station, two sixpences and ten pence were found on him.

Prisoner. Q. Did not I show some papers to some men at Skeate's which made them laugh? A. No; You got in conversation with three or four men in front of the bar giving them the papers—you tried to swallow the shillings which you took out of your waistcoat pocket as quickly as you could—they have not been recovered—I put my hand in your month and you tried to bite me but did not.

MR. CRAUFURD. Q. You say that there was a bundle of papers under his coat, is this one of them (produced)? A. Yes.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . These shillings are bad and from the same mould.

Prisoner's Defence. I am a compositor, and received orders to get some of these papers printed, I sold some of them at Mr. Skeate's, and received the spurious shillings for them from two men; with regard to the swallowing that is completely false.

GUILTY .*— Confined Eighteen Months.

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-397
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

Related Material

397. MARY BLAIR was indicted for a like offence.

MESSRS. CRAUFURD and COLERIDGE conducted the Prosecution, and MR. W. SLEIGH the Defence.

SUSAN GIDDY . My mother keeps a coffee—shop at 2, Tavistock—court, Covent—garden—on 7th February the prisoner came for a cup of tea and a roll which came to 3d.—she tendered me a half—crown, I gave her the change and put it in my pocket, there was no other there—in two or three minutes I discovered it was bad and gave it to my mother—on the 9th, between eight and nine on that morning, the prisoner came again and tendered me another bad half—crown—I said, "You were here last Tuesday and gave me a bad half—crown and now you have given me another"—she said, "Yes, I was here and I did give you one"—I gave them to the policeman.

Cross-examined. Q. What sort of pocket did you put it in? A. A linen pocket which hung under my apron—we were not busy that morning.

HENRY LEAREY . (Policeman, F, 104.) The prisoner was given into my charge—she said that she was in the shop on the 7th and gave Miss Geddes a half-crown, but she did not know it was bad—I received the two half-crowns—she was searched at the station and a good half-crown found in her hand.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . These half-crowns are both bad.

The prisoner's statement before the Magistrate, "I know nothing of the half-crown passed on the Tuesday."

The prisoner received a good character.


10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-398
VerdictGuilty > unknown; Guilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment; Imprisonment

Related Material

398. WILLIAM GREEN, (29) and ELIZABETH SHAKESPEARE, (18) were indicted for a like offence.

MESSRS. CRAUFURD and COLERIDGE conducted the Prosecution, and MR. W. SLEIGH defended Shakespeare.

MARY BARTON . My husband keeps a general shop at 24, Robinson-road, Victoria-park—on 27th February Green came for a packet of corn-flour which came to 2d.—he gave me a florin, I passed it to my nephew, Thomas Sibley, who told him it was bad—he said that he had got change for a half-sovereign and put his hand in his pocket and took some silver out—there was another florin there which my nephew tried and said that it was bad and gave both florins back to Green who gave me a good half-crown, and I gave him 2s. 4d. change and he left—this was after six in the evening.

WILLIAM THOMAS SIBLEY . I am a nephew of the last witness—I have heard what she has said; it is correct—when I handed Green the florin he said that he was a respectable man, and if I would go with him he would take me to where he lived at the top of the street—I went out at the private door as he went out at the shop door—I saw Shakespeare on the other side of the way, Green went down the next street and whistled to her—she crossed the road to him and both went down the road together—I followed them along the Cambridge-road and pointed them out to a constable—Green went into the Star and Garter and the woman waited outside on the same side—the constable went in and took Green—I afterwards went in—Shakespeare moved a little farther from the Star and Garter towards some railings and then walked back again—I pointed her out.

Cross-examined. Q. Had you ever seen the prisoners before? A. No—I was fifty yards behind them but did not lose sight of them, it was a very light night—there are some bushes just inside the railings—there is no ditch between the path and the railings—it is not at all uncommon to see young men and women walking about that part at night—I did not see Green pass anything to her there—she went some distance when she saw that he was taken—she said that she did not know anything of Green.

MR. CRAUFURD. Q. Did you see Green pass anything to Shakespeare? A. Yes, further up the Cambridge-road, near the pillar-box—I was with the constable then.

ANN FURMINGER . I live with my mother who keeps the Star and Garter—on 22d February Green came in for a glass of ale and gave me a shilling, I bent it between my teeth, showed it to a friend in the bar-parlour and brought it back again—he said, "Give it to me it is a bad one, I wonder where I could have taken it"—he gave me a good shilling and I gave him the change—he was taken in custody and I did not see it again.

Green. Q. What did you do with it? A. Gave it to you back before the constable came in—you tried to get away.

HENRY CLEVELY . I was in the Star and Garter on 22d February in the bar-parlour—Furminger gave me a bad shilling partly broken—she went oat with it in her hand and gave it to the prisoner—ho took it in his hand and at that moment I saw a policeman at the door—I jumped over the counter and gave Green in charge—I saw her give it to Green at his request and did not see it again.

WILLIAM HART . (Policeman, K, 356.) On 22d February, about quarter or twenty minutes past seven I was on duty in Oldfield-road, Bethnal-green and saw Green pass something to Shakespeare, who was standing in the dark—she crossed over and proceeded along the Cambridge-road when Sibley came and spoke to me—I followed the prisoners forty or fifty yards, they were talking together, and I saw Green go into the Star and Garter beershop—there are some low bushes there for a fence—I went in when Clevely called me and told Green I should take him for attempting to pass bad money at another house—he said that he had not done such a thing—I said that I should search him, he said that I should do no such thing—I searched him and found two half-crowns, 2s. good, and a 6d. and 5d. lying on the bar—he tried to escape and get to the door—I caught him by the collar, he became very violent, we had a struggle and both fell inside the door—I afterwards received this bag from the female searcher, it contains six paper collars, a newspaper, a tooth-brush, three cigars, and three cakes—I had seen Shakespeare carrying the bag on her arm—next morning I went to where I had seen her standing and found the black bag hanging on the bushes over the rails—it contains 13s. in counterfeit money, wrapped up in paper, three florins, and seven shillings—it was within reach of the place where she stood.

Cross-examined. Q. Have you ever seen her in the company of any bad characters? A. No—she does not belong to that district.

COURT. Q. Did you find any had money on Green? A. No; but he had the opportunity of getting rid of it, he was partly outside the door and got one hand out.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . These three florins and seven shillings are bad—if a coin bends easily it must be bad.

Green's Defence. I changed a half-sovereign in the Hackney-road, and I told Sibley I would take him to the place and have it rectified; he said, "I shall not trouble myself about it, you have more money about you and can pay "which I did; the female witness said that I gave her a bad shilling, I did not know that it was bad and gave her a good one; no bad money was found on me and no purse was produced. I want to know what became of the bad money if there was any.

Shakespeare received a good character.

GREEN, GUILTY Confined Twelve Months.

SHAKESPEARE GUILTY Confined Four Months.

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-399
VerdictGuilty > unknown

Related Material

399. MARY BARRY, (25)>was indicted for a like offence.

MESSRS. CRAUFURD and COLERIDGE conducted the Prosecution.

DAVID DAVIES . I am a grocer of Bunhill-row—on 7th February, about ten in the morning my assistant called me into the shop, and I saw the prisoner there—he gave me a bad shilling, she said that her husband gave it to her—I gave her in charge.

THOMAS EDWARDS . I am in Mr. Davis's service—I served the prisoner with 1/4lb. of sugar and half an ounce of tea, which came to 2 1/4 d.—

he gave me a bad shilling, I gave it to my master—the prisoner gave me a bad shilling also about a week previously—I found it was bad after she left, broke it and threw it into the street—I told her that I recognized her and would give her in custody.

Prisoner. Q. Did not you in the presence of the constable and your master call your mistress into the shop, and did not the say that she had never Been me before? A. No.

PHILIP SMITH . I am a baker, of York-street, Kingsland-road—on 1st March I served the prisoner with two halfpenny rolls—she gave me 1s—I gave her 11d. in copper, and she left the shop very quickly—I passed the shilling to my wife, found it was bad, and followed the prisoner—I did not lose sight of her—she joined a man and gave him something—he went to Mr. Munday's, a baker's, and I said to the prisoner, "Have you got another shilling, as this is a bad one?"—she said, "No, I have not"—I said, "Where is your husband?"—she said, "It is my brother, I will take you to where I live"—I went with her down a street opposite, which is no thoroughfare—when I got to the last house but two I said, "Which house do you live at?"—she said, "I do not live down here"—I met a constable and gave her in custody with the shilling.

Prisoner. Q. Did not I say that it was a young man whose company I had been in twice before? A. No.

THOMAS LANE . (Policeman N 254.) On 1st March Smith gave the prisoner into my custody—I received a bad shilling from him—no rolls or money were found on her.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . These shillings are both bad, and from the same mould.

Prisoner's Defence. I met this young man, and we had a glass of ale together; he gave me 1s. to get two halfpenny currant rolls; I gave him the change, and we ate the rolls. The other shilling I got from a gentleman in Bishopsgate-street. It is very hard for prostitutes to have such money given to them.

GUILTY .— Confined Six Months.

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-400
VerdictGuilty > unknown

Related Material

400. GEORGE WILLIAMS, (30) was indicted for a like offence.

MESSRS. CRAUFURD and COLERIDGE conducted the Prosecution,

MARGARET SKAKE . I am assistant to a baker in Millman-street—on 1st March, between 7 and 8 o'clock, the prisoner came for two penny loaves, and gave me a florin—I kept it in my hand, gave her the change, and she left—I tried it immediately and found it was bad—I gave it to my master.

FREDERICK SCHAFER . The last witness is my assistant—the prisoner left the shop as I went in—my daughter handed me a florin—I gave it to a policeman, and went out—the prisoner was in the road talking to another man—I pointed him out.

WILLIAM HOUSE . (Policeman D 79.) On 1st March I saw the prisoner about ten yards from Mr. Schafer's shop—another man was speaking to him—I tapped him on the shoulder and told him I wanted him to go to the baker's shop with me—he came back, and Mr. Schafer charged him—I asked him where he got the shilling—he said, "From my master"—I asked him where his master was—he said, "I shall not tell you"—I searched him; and found five shillings, five sixpences, a fourpenny piece, and a threepenny piece—he gave his name George Wilson, but refused his address.

Prisoner. Q. Did not I tell you I had been working at St. John's Wood? A. Yes—you did not say that you worked at Mr. Lambert's, or that you had only been in London three days.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . This coin is bad.

Prisoner's Defence. I had only been in London three days and was going to ask for work; there was a party with me. I went into the baker' s-shop for two penny loaves, and came out and gave the man 2d. to go to a grocer's shop and get some cheese; the policeman came and said he wanted me to go to the baker's-shop. It is a thing I was never known to be guilty of; in the meantime my mate had gone away, and I have never seen him since. Persons often chuck down silver to pay when they have halfpence in their pockets.

GUILTY .— Confined Nine Months.

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-401
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceNo Punishment > sentence respited

Related Material

401. GEORGE ROBINSON (27) , Unlawfully uttering a medal resembling in size, figure, and colour a half-sovereign; Second Count, a piece of mixed metal; Third Count, a coin resembling in size, figure, and colour a half-sovereign, but being of less value.

MESSRS. CRAUFURD and COLERIDGE conducted the Prosecution and MR. HOLDSWORTH the Defence.

MARY PIPER . I am the daughter of James Piper, a butcher, of Brentford and Isleworth—on 13th March, about one in the day, a man came in and asked for change for a half-crown—I gave it to him in silver and he left—after that another man came in for a biscuit, and paid me with two halfpence—the prisoner afterwards came in and asked me for two biscuits—he gave me a half-sovereign, and I went into the parlour for change—one of the other men followed me from the street into the parlour—that was the man for whom I had changed the half-crown—he said, "He don't want any change now"—I had got the change ready then—he followed me back into the shop and said a second time, "He does not want change"—I put the half-sovereign on the counter, and the prisoner said, "I want change, "and put the half-sovereign again into my hand with the head uppermost—another customer then came in, and I gave the prisoner 9s. 6d. in silver and fourpence in copper—the prisoner and the man for whom I had changed the half-crown went out together—I then turned the half-sovereign over, and saw on the other side the Prince of Wales' feathers—I ran after the prisoner and saw him running away with the other man—I took the coin to my uncle, Thomas Piper.

Cross-examined. Q. How long after the first man came in, did the second come in? A. Directly, and the prisoner came in two or three minutes—we have not a good deal of custom at that time of day—the half-sovereign was on the table in the parlour while I was getting the change, which was not a minute hardly. I brought it back because the man told me the prisoner did not want change—if he had not done so, I should have left it in the parlour—I put it down near me on the counter, and the prisoner took it up as it lay and put it into my hand after I had given him the change—I found out that it was bad not a moment after he had gone—they had got quite 100 yards away, and were walking away together.

MR. COLERIDGE. Q. When the man followed you into the parlour and said, "He does not want change, "did you put the half-sovereign down for him to take? A. No, but there were so any people in the shop I was rather confused.

THOMAS PIPER . I am a licensed victualler of Brentford—the last witness is my niece—my place is about 100 yards from her shop—on 13th march she came to me in the bar gave me this medal—I went after the man and saw him with another man standing against a wall—they appeared confused, as the place led nowhere—I went up and said to the prisoner, who

she pointed out, "I want you"—he said "What for?"—I said, "Have not you been into a baker's shop over the bridge?"—he said, "And what of that"—I took him in custody, and he resisted, but not much—I said, "It is for passing a bad half-sovereign"—he said he had never heard of such a thing—the other man tried to resist, but I took him the back way to my house—a man I gave him in custody to said, "Do not strike the poor man, "so he let go of the other and he walked round to the front door—I detained the prisoner three-quarters of an hour in my parlour before I could got a policeman, and the other man came and said, "What has the poor man been at"—the prisoner wanted to know what I detained him for—he put bis hand in his pocket and said to the other, "I tell you what it is, that coin that I took yesterday I put in my pocket, and must have given it by mistake"—he said that he should not stop—I said he should not go, and gave him in charge—the Magistrate let the other man go.

Cross-examined. Q. How far from the baker's-shop had they got? A. Two hundred yards—there was a thoroughfare there if they knew the locality—they did not appear to have gone there for a necessary purpose, for I went to see if they had left any coin there—there was a considerable mob, because my niece had no bonnet, and I had no hat—the mob did not hustle them—I held the prisoner tight all the time—he wanted to get away, but I held him—he did not deny being in the baker's.

THOMAS DIXEY (Policeman T 131), I took the prisoner on 13th March at Mr. Piper's—I charged him with attempting to pass a bad half-sovereign—he said that he did not try to pass it, and that he picked it up on the Bridge-road that morning—I found on him a good halfsovereign, id. in halfpence, a knife, and a chain without any watch—I produce the halfsovereign.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . This is a medal made of metal—it is the same diameter as a half-sovereign, and has the Queen's head on the obverse similar to that on a half-sovereign, but the legend is entirely different, it is, "Victoria, Queen of Great Britain, "at full length, instead of "Victoria, Dei gratia"—the colour is somewhat similar. (The medal dropped on the floor of the Court and was lost)—I can bring another medal from the same die—(MR. HOLDSWORTH objected to any further description of the coin it not being now produced, but the COURT overruled the objection)—on the other aide was the Prince of Wales' feathers—it was not a half-sovereign, and it was of less value.

COURT. Q. Was it knurled at the edge? A. Yes, but not as a half-sovereign; the knurling was round, and not square as a half-sovereign is; it was only knurled in the centre—it was quite similar enough to deceive.

MR. CRAUFURD. Q. You have had this medal in your possession? A. I have, and have produced it here to day—I have dropped it during my evidence, and lost it—it fell from my hand—I have made a strict search for it, and it cannot be found.

Cross-examined. Q. How long ago is it since you dropped this coin? A. I did not look at the clock; I should think a quarter of an hour, or a little over—I am sure it is five minutes—I have been occupied in searching for it ever since—I have not searched with a candle, but a candle has been used in the search after it.

MR. CRAUFURD declined to press for a description of the reverse side. MR. HOLDSWORTH submitted that there was no case to go to the Jury, as the coin was not produced, and as there was no proof of what was on the other tide of it. MR. COLERIDGE contended that a half-worn franc, used for a shilling, to deceive,

would come within the meaning of the Act, as in size, colour, and configuration they were the same; that the Act stated "or any other medal, "to show that the gold coin of any other country should not be used; and that the cast was the same as a counterfeit Napoleon being offered as a good sovereign: and requested the Court to tell the Jury, from MR. WEBSTER'S evidence, that the general appearance of the coin resembled a half-sovereign. The COURT considered that a counterfeit Napoleon was a medal, whereas a genuine one would be a "coin of less value than a sovereign; "it was a separate misdemeanor to utter a medal, MR. HOLDSWORTH contended that the word "figure" in the Act must have some reference to what was on the coin; the Jury had not seen the coin, and it might be free from any impression whatever and therefore it was for the Court to say whether the case was to go to the Jury. The COURT could not withdraw the case from the Jury, and considered that the word "figure" meant effigy as well as general resemblance, and that the figure must be such as to deceive a person of ordinary observation.


The COURT reserved the question for the Court of Criminal Appeal, whether there was any evidence to go to the Jury, that the medal resembled in size, figure, and colour a half-sovereign.

Thomas Kitchen, a warder of the House of Detention, produced a certificate of the prisoner's former conviction of uttering in 1859, when he was sentenced to two years' hard labour.— Judgment Respited.

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-402
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty; Guilty > pleaded guilty; Guilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment; Imprisonment; Imprisonment

Related Material

402. JAMES WATTS (59), ANN CHALMERS (37), and GEORGE THOMPSON (52), were indicted for unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin; to which

WATTS PLEADED GUILTY *.— Confined Two Years.

CHALMERS PLEADED GUILTY .**— Confined Eighteen Months.

MESSRS. CRAUFURD and COLERIDGE conducted the Prosecution, and MR. SHARPE the Defence.

CLARISSA WHITE . My husband keeps a chandler's shop in Cross-street—on 5th March Watts came with Chalmers, and asked for two eggs—Chalmers said, "No, my dear, take four;" and he said, "No, you mind me, two only"—they came to 2 1/2 d—Watts gave me a florin; I took it to my husband, and found it was bad—I marked it with my teeth, and by my husband's directions went back to the shop and gave Watts the change, 1s. 6d. and 3 1/2 d.—I took the coppers from the till; there was more than one halfpenny—one of them was marked as if it had been bitten, and the other was mouldy—these are the two halfpence (produced)—there were more marks on this one; the green has got rubbed off—Carnaby-street is not many yards from Cross-street.

GEORGE WHITE . I am the husband of the last witness—she showed me a florin—I saw it was bad; I told her to give change for it—I had placed five or six pennyworth of halfpence in the till two or three minutes before—these are two of them—I followed the prisoners, and overtook them about a hundred yards off—Thompson had then joined them; they appeared to be talking together—they crossed Silver-street—Chalmers turned to the right, and the men waited till she came back and joined them—they then walked into Golden-square, to the corner of Bridal-lane, and all three stopped talking together for five minutes—Chalmers then left, and went into Mr. Jenk's public-house, while the men waited on the opposite side of the street—I went in and asked the landlord what money he had taken—he showed me a florin, and I left the house—Chalmers was still on one side of the street, and the men on the other, walking away—I spoke to C 45, and gave them in charge, with the florin—they said nothing.

Cross-examined. Q. How far is your house from the end of Carnaby-street? A. About forty yards—they all went into Silver-street, but I was near enough to see where the woman went to.

HARRIET MARSH . On 15th March Chalmers came into my shop between 4 and 5 in the afternoon—I served her with articles which came to 7 1/2 d.—she gave me a florin; I put it in the till—there was no other florin there—I afterwards found it was bad, and gave it to the policeman—I recollect Watts coming into my shop two months ago, and giving 2s. 6d. for some things he bought.

GEORGE JENKS . I keep the Coach and Horses in Brewer-street—on 15th March, between 4 and 5 o'clock, Chalmers came for a glass of stout—she gave me a florin—I put it in the till—in a minute or two I looked in the till and found two florins, one bad and one good—I handed the bad one to the constable—I cannot say which florin Chalmers gave me.

MALCOLM HUNTER . (Policeman, C 45.) On 15th March the three prisoners were given into my custody by White—I charged them with uttering—they said they knew nothing about it, they did not know one another—I produce a bad florin I received from Mr. White, and another from Mr. Jenks, also one from Mr. Marsh; two of them are of 1864 and one of 1859—I found in 4s. 2 1/2 d. on Thompson—there was sixpence, a shilling, and elevenpence in halfpence—these two halfpence were among them.

Cross-examined. Q. Do you know anything against Thompson? A. No.

EDWARD SHARVILL . (Policeman, C 50.) Thompson and Watts were in a cell under my charge from 11 to 2 o'clock on 16th March; there were other prisoners in the cell—I was cleaning that cell on the 18th, and found these four bad florins (produced) in the pan of the water-closet.

Cross-examined. Q. Had you looked at the pan for a week before? A. Yes, on the Saturday previous, and also every morning and evening, if it is light enough when I turn the water on—I cannot be positive whether I looked at it on the morning and evening of the 17th—I found them on the 18th, because we were scrubbing the pans out—I had not more than eight persons in charge, and not more than five between those times—I had about thirty during the whole week.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . This florin of 1864, received from Mr. White, is bad; the one from Jenks, of 1859, is also bad—the one from Marsh is of 1864; it is bad, and from the same mould as the other—these four florins found at the Police-court are bad; three of them are from the same mould as the other two of 1864, and one of 1859 from the same mould as Jenks's.

THOMPSON.— GUILTY .*— Confined Fifteen Month.

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-403
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

Related Material

403. JOSEPH UNDERWOOD (45), and WILLIAM JONES (49), PLEADED GUILTY to unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.— Confined Twelve Months each.

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-404
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty; Not Guilty > no evidence

Related Material

404. ALFRED JUEN. (42), and ELIZA SMITH (43), were indicted for a like offence; to which

JUEN PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Six Months.

MR. CRAUFURD offered no evidence against SMITH.— NOT GUILTY .

THIRD COURT.—Tuesday, April 11th, 1865.

Before Robert Malcolm Kerr, Esq.

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-405
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

Related Material

405. WILLIAM SMITH (21) , Feloniously breaking into a certain building, and stealing therein a set of harness, value 5l., the property of Samuel Solomon Lewis.

MR. ORRIDGE conducted the Prosecution.

SAMUEL SOLOMON LEWIS . I am a tailor at 8, Wells-street, Whitechapel—I have a stable in Well close-square—about half-past 7 on 'the morning of 18th February, I missed a set of harness from there—it was nearly new—I had only used it about four or five times—I gave 6l. 10s. for it—one of my servants fastened up the stable in the usual manner the night before—I went round about 10 o'clock and saw it safe—the hasp of the pad lock had been broken, and also a portion of the wood-work—I also missed a sack with the name of "Crockford" on it—a few days afterwards a man named Thurley spoke to me—in consequence of that I communicated with Dunnaway, and went with him to Mr. O'Shea's, a small chandler's shop in Bermondsey-street, and there found my harness.

ROBERT THURLEY . I am a labourer, and live at 25, Dorset-street, Spital-fields—between 5 and 6 on the morning of 18th February, I was going down Wells-street towards the docks, near Mr. Lewis's stables, when I saw the prisoner and another man going towards Tower-hill; the other man was carrying a bag—I followed them, and noticed a ring, and the part of another, hanging out of the bag—I followed them over London-bridge, and the other man gave the prisoner the bag—they then went to Mr. O'Shea's, in Bermondsey-street—the shop was shut up—they put the sack down, and one of them sang out "O'Shea, "or something of that sort—I can't say which it was—I afterwards made a communication to Mr. Lewis—I saw a bill in his shop-window—it was a whitey-brown bag the men were carrying; a potato or corn-bag—there were some red letters on it, but I could not say what they were.

Prisoner. Q. What time do you say you saw me? A. About a quarter to 6, as near as I can say; you got over to Bermondsey-street about half-past 6.

PORTER WILLIAM DUNNAWAY (Police-sergeant, H 11). In consequence of information I had I went with Mr. Lewis, to 229, Bermondsey-street, Mr. O'Shea's shop—this harness (produced) was there, and it was identified by Mr. Lewis—I afterwards took the prisoner into custody in Billingsgatemarket—I was in plain clothes—I told him I belonged to the police, and said, "Do you know what you are in custody for?"—he said, "I suppose for Mr. Sixey's job"—I said, "No, I know nothing about Mr. Sixey."

COURT. Q. Did you tell him that what he said would be given in evidence against him? A. I did; I told him to be careful what he said—I said, "You are in custody for stealing, on the night of 17th February, a set of silver-plated harness from Mr. Lewis's stables in the Ride, Wellclose-square—he said, "I know nothing about it; I did not do it"—I said, "Now we have found the harness at Mr. O'Shea's shop, 229, Bermondsey-street, and he says he paid you 25s., and was to give a man named Mounsey 1l—he said, "I did not steal it, it was two other men that stole it, and they asked me to get them a customer for it, and I took it to O'Shea's, and he paid me 25s., and all I had out of it was 5s."

PHILIP O'SHEA . I live at 229, Bermondsey street, and am a provision-dealer and carman—I never saw the prisoner till about 7 o'clock on Saturday, 18th February—I was at work at Fenning's-wharf, and he came up to the wharf and inquired for me—I asked him what was his pleasure—he said he had fetched me this set of harness that George Mounsey was speaking about—I know Mounsey; he had spoken to me about a set of harness—he is now at work in Haydon-square, Minories—the prisoner asked me 50s. for the

harness; he took 45s.—I paid him 1l. 5s. on account, and said if Mounsey called in the evening I would give him the balance—I did not see any more of him.

The Prisoner's statement before the Magistrate:—"I wish to say Thurley is saying false against me. I can prove where I was at the time he says he saw me. I was not in Wells-street at the time he says he saw me."

Prisoners Defence. I did not leave Billingsgate-market till a quarter to 7. These two men said they would give me 5s. if I sold it When they got to Bermondsey-street they gave me this sack, and the harness, and we went to O'Shea's shop. Some children told me he was at the wharf, and I went after him. He. offered me 25s., for it, and I took it, and the men gave me 6d. for myself to have something to drink.


10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-406
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

Related Material

406. JOHN SULLIVAN (19) , Robbery with violence on Lewis Hardwidge, and. stealing 17s., his money.

MR. HORRY conducted the Prosecution, MR. RIBTON the Defence,

LEWIS HARDWIDGE . On Thursday morning, 2nd March, about 1 o'clock, I was in Oxford-street—I was knocked down on my back; I can't say who by—I lost 17s.—I had it a little before that—a police officer came up to me.

Cross-examined. Q. What time was itl? A. An hour after midnight.

ROBERT IRWIN (Policeman, C 218). On Thursday morning 2nd March, about 1 o'clock, I saw the prisoner knock the last witness down with his fist, and do something to him—I ran across the road after the prisoner—he ran down High-street, St. Giles's—I ran after him for about a quarter of a mile—I sprang my rattle for assistance—the prisoner escaped—I saw him again on 4th March—I took him into custody at a lodging-house, No. 10, Church-lane.

Cross-examined. Q. What did he say when he was taken? A. He said he was not the man.MR. RIBTON called

GEORGE MCCRAWKEY . I am a hawker—I live in the same house as the prisoner—his father keeps a lodging-house—I was there when he was taken—I did not know what he was taken for until I read it in the paper—I went to bed on the Wednesday night—I was in bed reading a book—I know, George Thompson—he is one of the men that occupies a bed in the same room—he sleeps in the bed that has the front towards the door—I was reading a religious book up to 2 o'clock—the constable took the prisoner out of bed from another man—it might be at 2 o'clock—I learnt what he was taken for on the Saturday—I did not know that he was remanded from the Saturday to the Monday—I got up about half-past 8 in the morning—I saw his father and mother on the Saturday morning, and asked them whether they were going down to see him—I saw the prisoner in the kitchen on the Wednesday night; it might have been about a quart to 1l. and it was about twenty minutes or half-past 12 when he came up with a piece of bread and meat, and I said to him, "Hulloa, John, you are eating meat; do you know what day it is? it is Ash Wednesday"—he said, "It is gone 12; "and I said, "Oh, you take advantage of the half hour then"—I was reading Moore's "Catholicity, or Ages of Faith"—the prisoner did not get up after he went to bed—he could not have been out at 1 o'clock—at 1 o'clock he asked me to put the candle out, and I continued reading, and he went to sleep.

Cross-examined by MR. HORRY. Q. Did he deep in the same room as you? A. Yes—I was not reading the night before—my devotions were not confined to Ash Wednesday—I was not reading, on the Friday night; I was

reading on the Monday and Tuesday, and I have read since up to 12, 1, or 2 o'clock—I did not ask what was the matter when he was taken away—I first learnt what he was taken for on the Saturday from his mother-in-law, but she can't express herself, and I could not properly understand her; but I read an account of it in the paper two or three days afterwards, and I felt it my duty to come forward and say what I knew—his father knew he had been taken away; he came into the bedroom and showed the two policemen up—I asked him to go down and find out what he was taken for.

MR. RIBTON. Q. He did not know, I suppose? A. No—I recollect that it was Ash Wednesday evening, and the Wednesday of that week happened to fall on lst March.

GEORGE THOMPSON . I live at the prisoner's father's house, and am a bone and ivory turner—I recollect Ash Wednesday particularly—I slept at home that night—I went to bed about half-past 1l—I slept with the prisoner—he came to bed that night at a little after 12—I am sure he came to bed before 1, and did not get up again—I wag awake, listening to the last witness reading a book—I am positive about that.

Cross-examined. Q. You slept with him, did you? A. I did—I mean to swear to that—McCrawkey was reading a book; I was not—I was listening to him nearly an hour—he was reading when I went upstairs—I recollect the officer coming—the officer said, "I think you are the man I want, "and the prisoner then said, "You are mistaken"—I 'got up about 8 the next morning—his father was the first person I saw in the house after that—I saw his mother-in-law between 8 and 9—I first heard of what he was taken for on the Sunday, by seeing it in the paper—I did not go to the police-court.

MR. RIBTON. Q. Would you have gone up if you bad been asked? A. Yes—I work in Tottenham Court-road all day—I have been out of work this last week or two—I was out of work on 9th March.

COURT. Q. Was it a very interesting book that the last witness was reading? A. Yes; a library book; it was "Peter Simple, "one of Marryatt's novels.

MR. RIBTON. Q. Did you see the book yourself? A. Yes—I did not have it in my hands—I am quite sure about that—I have seen him reading a religious book, but that night it was "Peter Simple"—I am sure of that.

GUILTY .—He was further charged with having been before convicted at Marlborough-street Police-court, in November, 1862; to which he

PLEADED GUILTY.— Seven Years' Penal Servitude.

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-407
VerdictGuilty > with recommendation
SentenceNo Punishment > sentence respited

Related Material

407. JOHN PARRY (35), and WILLIAM HARRIS (37) , Stealing 2 gallons of gin, the property of Edward Lonsdale Beckwith and other, their masters.

MR. METCALFE conducted the Prosecution.

EDWARD LONSDALE BECKWITH . I am a partner in the firm of Board, Son, & Beckwith, distillers, in Bartholomew-close—Parry was in our service as a carman, and Harris was what we call a racker—he helps to draw off the gin when it is delivered to the customers—he had access to the stock—the prisoners had no authority to take out goods of any kind without a deliverynote—the delivery-note would show the person to whom the goods were to be delivered—this note (produced) relates to goods to be delivered on 21st March—the prisoners were the persons to deliver those, and that was the only parcel of goods they had to deliver—they were for Mr. Brading, of Hoxton—previous to the beginning of the year, we had a customer named Capes—he keeps the Prince of Wales public-house, I think, at Hoxton—

from information we received, we closed his account—the prisoners had no right to deliver goods to Mr. Capes on 23d March—on that day, the officer Underwood brought Parry and Capes to me—I do not remember the exact words that were used; something to the effect that he had seen Parry take a bottle. into Capes's house—it was a two-gallon bottle, which he then had with him—I asked Parry if he could account for it—he said he did not put the bottle into the van—I said, "But how did you know where to deliver it, "and he made no answer—I have examined the bottle and the contents—there are two gallons of gin in it—the bottle is oars; it bears our brand and seal on it—it is worth 1l. 2s. 4d.—we hept half-a-dozen, perhaps, of these bottles filled near the outer warehouse—Harris would have access to them.

Harris. I went out with Parry to help him, and to do as he told me.

CHARLES UNDERWOOD (Policeman). On the morning of 23d March, about 10 o'clock, I saw the prisoners at the Sir Robert Peel public-house, at Hoxton; Mr. Brading's—they had delivered a load there; and they then went to the Prince of Wales, Mr. Capes'S, Hyde-place, Hoxton, which is about a quarter of a mile from the other place, and in an opposite direction from Mr. Beckwith's—Parry went into the Prince of Wales, and about a minute afterwards be returned, and Harris handed him a bottle out of the van—he took it into the house, and Harris followed—this is the bottle—I first sent a lad in, who I had with me, and in about two minutes I went in myself—I found Parry talking to the landlord, and Harris standing by; all three together—I asked Parry for the delivery-note and the permit for the bottle that he had just brought in—Parry said, "The landlord has it"—I asked the landlord if that was true—he said he knew nothing of a bottle or a permit; if I had seen one brought in, I had better find it—Parry then went towards the passage at the end of the bar, where the bottle was standing; he attempted to take hold of it, but I prevented him, and took it myself—I then told the prisoners in the landlord's presence that I knew they had no business to deliver a bottle at this house, and that they must go with me to the firm and explain the matter—Parry and the landlord then went with me in a cab to the distillery, and I sent some one else with Harris and the horse and van—after seeing Mr. Beck with, I took them to the station—Capes was not charged at all—I found this order showing that they had delivered the goods at Mr. Brading's; no other delivery-note.

Parry. The bottle was put in the van while I went to get some grub for the horse; I was not aware it was there till we got to Hoxton.

Harris. I was not aware it was there.

GEORGE RUSSELL . I am a detective officer—I searched Harris at the station—I asked him where the delivery-book was—he said, "In the waggon"—I went to the waggon and found it—there is no entry relating to Capes at all—there is an entry for Mr. Brading; no other.

ROBERT MANSFIELD . I live at 58, Leman-street, Whitechapel—on the morning of 23d I was with Underwood, and saw the van at the Sir Robert Peel first; and it was driven on to Capes's, the Prince of Wales—I went In there and saw Parry coming from the passage; he had put the bottle in the passage at the side of the bar—I saw him take the bottle into the house, and I followed in—I saw Mr. Capes there behind the bar—Harris was standing in front of the bar—he said something to Capes, but I could not hear what it was—Underwood then came in.

THOMAS BROOKS . I am a warehouseman in the service of Messsr. Board—it is my duty to check goods when they are put into the van—on 23d March I did so; I checked the note to Mr. Brading; I called it over to Parry;

Harris was there at the time—I know of nothing besides Mr. Brading's goods being put into the van; no two-gallon bottle of gin—there were three or four horse-cloths in the van, sufficient to have covered over a bottle.

Parry. Harris put the bottle in the van while I went to feed the horses.

Harris. I never put no bottles in.

ALFRED CAPES . I keep the Prince of Wales public-house at Hoxton—I was a customer of Messrs. Boards', up to just before Christians, when they closed my account—I know the prisoners as being in their service—I did not order any goods on 23d March—I did not authorize the prisoners to bring me any gin, or anything of that kind—I did not see it brought in; I am sure of that.

COURT. Q. You did not see that bottle brought in? A. No.

MR. METCALFE. Q. Were you standing at the bar when they came in? A. No; I was in my private parlour having my breakfast; I came out some time afterwards—I don't know how long; my Missus called me out, and said there was Swain's men; it used to be Swain—I then came out—I say I did not know this bottle was in the passage at all; I told the officer I knew nothing about it.

Parry. It is my first offence; I hope you will be merciful to me. I have been there a good many years.

Harris. It is my first offence.

GUILTY.—Recommended to mercy by the Jury. Underwood stated that one day token watching, he saw the prisoners deliver four measures and a half of gin over the proper quantity at Capes' public-house. THE COURT ordered Capes to be taken into custody, and taken before the Magistrate.

Judgment Respited.

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-408
VerdictsGuilty > pleaded guilty; Not Guilty > unknown; Not Guilty > unknown
SentencesNo Punishment > sentence respited

Related Material

408. HENRY REYNOLDS (20) , Stealing 16 metal stocks, and 65 metal dies, the property of William Comb Maddever; and JAMES WOOD (36), GEORGE LEONARD (21), and WILLIAM ROBERTS (21) , feloniously receiving the same.

REYNOLDS PLEADED GUILTY.—Recommended to mercy by the prosecutor. Judgment Respited.

MR. ORRIDGE conducted the Prosecution, and MR. MONTAGUE WILLIAMS

defended Wood.

WILLIAM COOMB MADDEVER . I am an ironmonger, of 70, Sun-street, Bishopsgate—Reynolds was in my employment as a porter; he left on 25th February—on 3rd March we missed sixteen sets of stocks and dies, value about 25l.—nine sets have been recovered—I do not know either of the other prisoners.

Cross-examined. Q. What is the value of the two that Wood was found dealing with? A. About 1l. or 23s. each; German dies are a little cheaper than others, not much—we sell a good many of those.

HENRY MILLER . I am an ivory-turner, living at 20, Curtain-road, Shoreditch—I have known Reynolds twelve or fourteen years—about the latter end of February, I met him, and he asked me to go for a walk with him one afternoon—I went with him as far as the Hackney-road—he gave me a set of stocks and dies, and asked me if I would take them into pawn for him—I took them into a shop in the Hackney-road, and the pawnbroker refused them; he said he did not think the goods were come honestly by—I brought them out of the shop, and gave them to Reynolds, and told him I should

have nothing more to with them—we then walked on as far as the Bethnalgreen-road, and Reynolds saw Roberts; he ran across the road, and gave the stocks and dies to Roberts, and he took them into a pawnbroker's in the Bethnalgreen-road—he came out, and gave Reynolds 5s., and tore up the ticket.

COURT. Q. And you did nothing? A. No, I did not ask Reynolds where he got them from; I told him what the pawnbroker said, and told him I should have nothing more to do with them.

HENRY ASHFORD . I am assistant to Mr. Richard Henry Ashford, a pawnbroker, 29, Bethnal-green-road—I produce a set of stocks and dies—to the best of my belief, I took them from the man at this end (Roberts); I advanced 10s. on them, and gave the man a duplicate.

COURT. Q. Did you know Roberts at all before? A. No; I saw that the article was new as it is now—it did not strike me as at all odd that a man should bring in a thing of that sort; we have several manufacturers of those articles about us, and when they are short of money they often send these things in pledge.

GEORGE FLINT . I am a smith, of 3, Skinner-street, Bishopsgate-street—I have known Wood for some years—he is a general smith in Long-alley; about three weeks or a month ago he came and asked me to lend him 14s.; I told him I would not, without he gave me a security, and He then brought me two stocks and dies—on his depositing those with me, I lent him the 14s.—he said he would come and take them away the next week—I afterwards gave some information to the office.

Cross-examined. Q. How long have you known Wood? A. For yean; since my father has had the business in Skinner-street—he has been there fourteen years; I have always known him as a respectable man.

FRANCIS MOORE . I am a carman in the employment of the Great Western Railway Company, and live at 14, Stanley-street, Paddington—I know Reynolds—I bought some stocks and dies of him—they are here—I knew he was at work in Sun-street as a smith, but I did not know where—I always understood him to be a smith—this (produced) is the set I gave 6s. for—I am not in that way of business at all—I also lent Reynolds 5s. 6d. on some duplicates—I did not see him for a day or two afterwards, and he sent down to me to Jet him have them back or destroy them, for, to tell me the truth, the things were not got honestly—I kept them by me for a day or two, and then destroyed them—there were five of them—I have seen Leonard once or twice, sometimes with Reynolds.

COURT. Q. Where did you suppose that Reynolds got these tools and duplicates? A. I thought they were his own tools; they were wrapped up in a piece of newspaper—he said they were his own—I did not look to see if they had been used—the duplicates were for stocks and dies.

JOHN HAWKES (City-policeman, 88). I took Reynolds, on 22d March, at his father's residence, Finsbury-market—he said he took the things out, a set at a time—I took Wood on 23d at his workshop, 5, Duke-street—I told him I belonged to the police, and asked him if he knew a lad named Reynolds, who worked at an ironmonger's—he said, "No, I don't"—I asked him whether he had bad any stocks and dies offered him for sale, or whether he had lent any money on any—he said, "No"—I asked him if he knew a person named Flint, residing in Skinner-street—he said he did—I then inquired of him whether be had left any stocks and dies with him—he said he bad not; I then asked him if he would accompany me as far as Flint's house—he did so, and I called Flint out—I said to Wood, in his presence, "Do you mean to

tell me you have never left any goods with this man"—he said, "Well, to. tell you the truth, I have; I left two sets of stocks and dies with Mr. Flint for 14s."—I asked him where he got them from—he said a lad wearing a white coat brought them round to him, and that he had given 14s. for them—I told him to recollect whether he gave as much as 14s. for them—he said, "Well, I gave 4s. for one set, and 7s. for the other"—I then asked him if he had ever had any dealings in any other way with this lad at any time—he said, "No; he had not"—I said, "Did you ever have any hammer-heads offered to you by him"—he said, "Yes; I had a packet of three, which I paid him 2s. for, which he brought out at Alabaster's public-house in Finsburymarket"—that was were I afterwards took Leonard—I asked Wood what he had done with them? how he had disposed of them—he said he sold them to a man who came round to him, and asked him for work—he did not know who he was—I took him to the station—I apprehended Leonard about half-past 1l., the same night; I asked him if he knew Reynolds, and where he worked—he said he did—I asked him if he ever received any stocks and dies from him to pledge, or to dispose of—he said they brought him something round; he did not know what they called them, but they were iron, with bright handles—he said, "I pledged one set at the corner of Magpiealley"—I asked him if he had ever pledged any others—he said, "No; he had not"—I told him to recollect, and he said, "Well, to tell you the truth, I pledged four other sets; one set at Mr. Hawes's in Old-street-road"—he said he did not know the name he pledged them in, because Reynolds generally accompanied him, and told him what to say—I went to the pawnbroker's, and found some of the sets—I asked Leonard if he thought the property was honestly come by—he said he did not know, but he said, Reynolds had told him that if he would come round to his master's premises any time before 8 in the morning, he could have what he liked—he was a carman at that time—I took Roberts on the Saturday in Hocklington-road, Islington—I asked him if he knew Reynolds—he said he did well—I asked him if he knew where he was employed—he said, "Yes; at an ironmonger's in Sun-street"—I don't think he mentioned the name—I asked him if he had had any goods from his employers, or from him, to dispose of—he said, "One day Reynolds came round to me in the morning and wished me to pledge something for him. I told him I could not attend to him then, but if he came round to my aunt's in the Bethnal-green-road in the afternoon, I would see what I could do for him"—he said that Reynolds came to his aunt's, and gave him a parcel to take in to pledge at Mr. Shefford's—I asked what he got on them—he said he got 10s. on them, but he only gave Reynolds 5s. out of it, and the ticket, which Reynolds destroyed—I asked him whether he thought they were honestly come by—he said, "Well, when I was in the pawnbroker's, I thought there was something wrong about them, but as I was there I thought I might as well leave them"—I took him into custody.

Cross-examined. Q. What time in the day was it you took Wood? A. Three o'clock; he was in his workshop—I told him I was going to take him for receiving the goods knowing them to have been stolen—he mumbled something in reply, but I could not ascertain what it was; he said he did not know they were stolen, and some other words that I could not understand.

EDMUND GILLAM . I am assistant to Mr. Hawes, 115, Old-street, St. Luke's, pawnbroker—I produce a set of stocks and dies pledged on 15th February—I don't know by whom—I have seen the prisoner Leonard.

WILLIAM MCLACKLAN . I am assistant to Messrs. Fryet and Son, 16, Whitechapel-road—I produce a set of stocks and dies pledged on 28th January, for 6s., in the name of Leonard—the prisoner Leonard is the man who pledged them.

JAMES HALL . I am assistant to Mr. Russell, pawnbroker, 10, Shoreditch—I produce a set of stocks and dies pledged with us on 9th February, for 6s. in the name of George Weston, and also a screw-hammer, pledged on 2d January, in the name of George Wilson—to the best of my belief the stocks and dies were pledged by the prisoner Leonard.

WOOD received a good character NOT GUILTY .


NEW COURT.—Wednesday, April 13th, 1865.

Before Mr. Justice Shee.

The following prisoners PLEADED GUILTY:—

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-409
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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409. THOMAS ELLIOTT (34) , to feloniously setting fire to a stack of oats and a'stack of hay, the property of Alfred William Nicholls.— Seven years' Penal Servitude. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-410
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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410. BENJAMIN BARRETT (20) , to burglariously breaking and entering the dwelling-house of John Robert Pyson, and stealing therein 1 rug and 1 table-cover, his property.— Confined Fifteen Months; and [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-411
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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411. WILLIAM KNIGHT (22) , to burglariously breaking and entering the dwelling-house of George Puckett, with intent to steal.— Confined Twelve Months. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-412
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty; Not Guilty > no evidence
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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412. JOHN CHAMP (49) and ALICE CHAMP (60) , Burglariously breaking and entering the dwelling-house of Sutcliffe Holroyd, and stealing therein 38 billiard balls, and other articles, his property; to which

JOHN CHAMP PLEADED GUILTY .— Five Years Penal Servitude; and MR. COOPER for the prosecution, offered no evidence against


10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-413
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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413. JAMES STONE (40) , Feloniously killing and slaying Philip Webb.

MESSRS. METCALFE and TAYLOR conducted the Prosecution, and MR. SLEIGH the Defence.

PHILIP HENRY WEBB . I live at 13, Cannon-road, Mile End-road—my father's name was Philip Henry Webb—he was employed by Mr. Fairey on 3d March in scraping the Mile End-road—he was seventy years of age—he was sometimes more deaf than at other times; according to the weather—I went to the London Hospital and saw him there—he died at twenty minutes to 9 that evening.

GEORGE WELLER . On 3rd March I was house-surgeon at the London Hospital—the deceased was brought there that afternoon insensible—he died about 9 that evening from extravasation of blood in the abdominal cavity—that might be caused by his being run over.

PHILIP HODGE . I am a leather-maker—on 3d March about 4 o'clock, I was in the Mile End-road on the north side, coming towards the city; that would be on my right-hand side—as I was walking I saw the prisoner with a van and horses—I heard him come at a most rapid pace; it induced me to turn—he was nearly a hundred yards in my rear—he had two horse load of coals—I believe it was two tons—I continued looking at him till he came nearly abreast of me, then I turned my head again hearing a great shouting—I saw a man in the road who appeared in the act of rising—the van knocked

him down and both wheels passed over him—I was then about fifteen yards from him—the van was about three yards from the edge of the kerbstone, on the north side—that was the wrong side—the old man was put in a cab and sent to the hospital—I followed the van; it was stopped between twenty and thirty yards off—I said to the prisoner, "You must be a madman to run over that poor fellow when you had all the road to yourself, "pointing to the road, which is fifty feet wide, and there was nothing but a cab there—he made no answer—he did not get down willingly—I said, "You had better get down and see about the poor man, "and he got down—he was going at least eight miles an hour—they seemed to me two good horses and they were going as fast as he could make them.

Cross-examined. Q. You heard loud shouting? A. Yes; from the people—it was a kind of general shouting, a sensational shouting—I understood that the shout was because the man was in the way, but I did not see him till afterwards—if the driver shouted to him it must have been almost momentary with the general shouting of the people—a person coming from Stepney-green to get into Cleveland-street would have to drive over the very spot which I describe, from the kerbstone—he could not get across the road without driving in that direction towards the off-side of the road—he had pulled up at the time I overtook him—he appeared to be sober—I saw nothing to the contrary—I am not a driver of horses, but I often hear fireengines, and I thought it was a fire-engine coming, by the noise it made.

MR. TAYLOR. Q. Was Cleveland-street beyond him? A. About seventy paces beyond where the accident occurred; he drove straight along—I saw no cessation of pace till after it occurred.

WILLIAM TURNER . I am a ropemaker, of 6, Union-street, Spitalfields—on 3d March at a quarter to 4 in the afternoon, I was in the Mile End-road, and saw a two-horse van driven by the prisoner at a very furious rate—I heard a shriek, looked towards the van and saw a man lying on the ground, and immediately both the wheels of the van went over him—there was a little check to his speed by the wheel going over the man, which raised the wheel five or six inches, and then the prisoner turned his horses' heads and drove on as fast as he could—I ran after him and said, "You wretch, stop, you have killed a man"—he said, "What is that to you?"—I shouted to him that he should have got out of the way—he still remained on his box where he was driving, and I said, "Come down and see what you have done"—he got down very reluctantly, and I discovered then that he was intoxicated—I am no judge of the speed of horses, but I should say that he was driving at the rate of two miles an hour—he was coming faster than a cab at its ordinary pace which was coming along on the near side, he passed that.

Cross-examined. Q. You do not pretend to be a judge of pace? A. No—I was examined before the Coroner, and am told that the verdict was accidental death—I will not say that I saw a whip, but the prisoner had the reins in his hand.

MR. TAYLOR. Q. What is the width of the road? A. About fifty feet—I measured it—I saw no effort on the prisoner's part to stop the horses—it was I and others who stopped him, and insisted on his coming to see the poor man he had run over.

EDWARD CLARKE . I am a commercial traveller, of London-road, Hackney—on 3d March, I was walking in the Mile End-road, and saw the prisoner with a van load of coals and two horses—I am accustomed to horses—he was going at the rate of seven miles an hour, not more—I saw the old man

scraping the road, and saw the prisoner's van coming along thirty or forty yards off before it met him, and when it got six or eight yards from him, I heard the prisoner halloo out to him twice, bat the man did not appear to hear him, his back was to the van—the prisoner tried to constrain the horses, but could not, and after passing over the body he drawed on one side, about fourteen or sixteen yards—when I had seen the man put into a cab I went to the van—the prisoner was ordered down, and he got down.

Cross-examined. Q. Did the defendant shout out loudly to the man in the road? A. Yes, twice—any person possessed of the ordinary unimpaired faculty of hearing would have heard him—not hearing the shouting, the defendant endeavoured to pull up, but was not able to do so in time—the horses appeared fresh, one more so than the other—the road is very broad there, coming from Stepney-green to Cleveland-street—the direction is across the road, so as to bring him to what would be called his wrong side—he must necessarily have gone on his wrong side to get to Cleveland-street—the prisoner seemed rather excited when he stopped; but whether it was from the accident, I can't say—I have been accustomed to horses all my life—he did not appear to be driving at an unreasonable pace, as he was in a broad thoroughfare without any obstacle; but in a coal-van it did seem unreasonable, because they generally walk—one horse was sluggish and the other very fresh.

JOHN SIMPSON . I live at 3, East-side, Bethnal-green—I was nearly opposite Cleveland-street, coming from the City, and meeting the van—it came at a very rapid rate, I should say ten miles an hour—I did not see the old man scraping the road till he was down; he was about level with me, but I was looking forward—when the very was raised, I turned to the van and saw him down, and several people round him—the van did not stop—the prisoner did not seem to be restraining it at all, but one of the people stopped him, and he was told that he had run over a person—he said that he ought to have got out of the way—I requested him to get down—he did not show that he was inclined to do so; in fact, he was more inclined to proceed—he did get down—he appeared to be the worse for liquor—I heard a shout—I do not know whether he made it or not—the van was then close on the man.

Cross-examined. Q. Did you see the cab in the road? A. Yes; he drove from behind a cab—I think he said, "I called out loudly to him, and he ought to have got out of the way"—I say it was ten miles an hour, but it might have been twelve perhaps.

STEPHEN PATMORE (Policeman, K 84). I took the prisoner—he was drunk.

Cross-examined. Q. Are you prepared to say that the appearances he manifested were from drink, or from excitement? A. I do not know anything about the excitement; I say he was drunk.

COURT. Q. Could you be mistaken; suppose a man had been suddenly the cause of a dreadful accident, do you think what you observed in him was excitement occasioned by that? A. No; I saw the state of the man, and he was drunk—I was close to him when I took him in custody, and I say so from his appearance—it could not have been alarm or fright—I was asked the question by the Coroner, and I said that he might have been excited, but I said nothing in regard to his not being drunk.

The prisoner received a good character.NOT GUILTY. The Jury requested the Court to caution the prisoner, as they were not quite satisfied with his conduct.

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-414
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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414. HENRY SINCLAIR (17) , Robbery on Edward Walter Donovan, and stealing from his person I book, the property of George Smith.

MR. LILLEY couducted the Prosecution, and MR. WILLIAMS the Defence,

EDWARD WALTER DONOVAN . I live at Hoxton, and am fifteen years old I am errand-boy in the employment of George Smith, a box-maker—on Saturday night, 4th March, about a quarter-past 7, I was going along Bunbill-row with my sister—I was carrying a brown paper parcel, containing three account-books—just as I got opposite a court a man pushed against my sister—she asked him who he was pushing of, and he came and caught hold of my parcel, clung to it, dragged me up the court, choked me round the neck, and struggled with me till the parcel came undone—the choking hurt me—he got one book, and I managed to get the other two—I got up and pursued him, but he was gone—I gave information to the police and a description—I saw the prisoner at the station on Monday with two or three others, and picked him out as the man—I did not hesitate—I have no doubt of him.

Cross-examined. Q. How old is your sister? A. Fourteen—the place where the prisoner came up was very dull, and the place he dragged me to was pitch dark—I only saw his features where it was very dusk for a second, and after it became darker I could not see him at all—I had never seen him before.

MR. LILLEY. Q. When the prisoner first came up to you, were there any lights? A. There was a light in a baker's shop, and one at a public-house at the corner of the street, lower down—I saw his face for a second by the light of the baker's shop before I turned down the court.

ELLEN FEWELL DONOVAN . I am a sister of the last witness—I was with him in Bunhill-row on Saturday evening—the prisoner came and leant up against my back—I asked him who he was pushing, and he caught hold of my brother's parcel and seized him by the throat—when he began to halloo I ran into the middle of the road screaming, and got two men—I know it was the prisoner—I saw him coming out of a public-house in the court when I was with the policeman looking for him—there was a gas-light in the baker's shop.

Cross-examined. Q. Was it very dark where you first saw him? A. Yes—it was after he took the book that I saw him coming out of the public-house—the policeman ran after him, but he was gone.

MR. LILLEY. Q. The man you saw come out of the public-house you believe to be the prisoner? A. Yes—I looked at him, and said to the policeman, "That is the man"—he was about a yard from me when be endeavoured to pull the books from my brother—I looked up in his face, and said, "Who are you pushing of?"

COURT. Q. Can you be quite sure, upon your oath, that you saw his face sufficiently to be able to speak positively to him? A. Yes—I have no donbt of him.

MARY MARKRAM . I live at 3, Salmon-and-Ball-court, Bunhill-row—on Saturday night, 4th March, about 7 o'clock, I was indoors, and heard screaming and cries of "Murder!" and "Stop thief!"—I ran out, crossed the court, and the prisoner ran past me—I saw him by the light at the baker's shop—I then saw the girl and the boy who have been examined—they were running, and hallooing "Stop thief!"—the prisoner touched me as he passed me—I had seen him a great many times before—the court I am speaking of runs into Chequers-alley, Whitecross-street.

Cross-examined. Q. Was it very dark? A. Yes—there are a good many

other nice-looking men in the neighbourhood of the court besides the prisoner—the prisoner passed me about twelve yards from the place where the books were found.

MR. LILLEY. Q. Did the light at the baker's assist you? A. No—there was a door in the court open and a light on the stairs, by means of which I saw his face. I was close to him.

MARY WATSON . I am a widow, and live at 3, Chequer's-alley—on Sunday morning, 5th March, I found a book laid on the sink at the end of my yard—I gave it to the policeman—it was not there the night before.

JAMES BLOGG (Policeman, G 124). On Sunday morning, a description was given to me at the station by Donovan, in consequence of which and from farther information, I apprehended the prisoner on Monday morning, 6th March—I told him the charge—he said he was not there, he knew nothing about it—I took him to the station, placed him with three others, and Donovan pointed him out—one of them was a stranger fetched out of the street, and the other was a policeman in plain clothes, about twenty-two or twenty-three years of age—the third was rather an older roan, named Webb—one man had whiskers and another had not—the third man was about twenty-one years of age—I received this book from Mrs. Watson.

Cross-examined. Q. Was the third man another policeman? A. I can't say.

MR. LILLEY. Q. Were they persons about the prisoner's age? A. Yes, as near as I can say.

EDWARD WALTER DONOVAN . (re-examined). This is one of the three books I was carrying that night.

MR. WILLIAMS (to ELLEN DONOVAN). Q. How far is the public-house you saw the man coming out of from where your brother was assaulted? A. A little more than one hundred yards, I should think.

GUILTY.* Confined Nine Months.

THIRD COURT.—Wednetday, April 12th, 1865

Before Mr. Recorder.

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-415
VerdictNot Guilty > fault; Not Guilty > no evidence; Guilty > lesser offence; Guilty > unknown

Related Material

415. THOMAS BREWERTON (27), WILLIAM HENRY JEFFERY (27), LOUISA BREWERTON (26), THOMAS CASELEY (23), DAVID ROBERTS (41), MARTHA JEFFERY (28), and ANN CASELEY (26) . Burglariously breaking into the shop of John Walker, and stealing therein 280 watches, 100 pins, 150 chains, 100 brooches, 100 rings, 100 lockets, 50 seals, and 50 keys, his property. Second count, feloniously receiving the same.


MR. DIGBY SEYMOUR, Q. C. with MESSRS. ORRIDGE, F. H. LEWIS and RIGBY conducted the Prosecution.


WILLIAM HAMILTON (Police-inspector.) From information I received, I went on 6th February to the premises of Mr. Walker, Cornhill, and made a minute examination—on entering the shop I found a hole large enough to Admit the body of a man in the back shop, behind a screen partition; a sort of panel partition—I then examined the iron safe, and found that it had been forcibly wrenched open—I saw marks of violence about it—the first floor is let out in offices—I proceeded from Mr. Walker's shop to the first floor, and there found a hole cut in the flooring large enough to admit the

body of a man, which led into the shop of Mr. Mitchell, a tailor, next door—it would be the next shop—it is one house divided—from the tailor's shop they could get into the basement of the building by proceeding down a small staircase, and from there through the hole I first spoke of into Mr. Walker's shop—I examined the exterior of the pemises—there were no marks of violence whatever there—a portion of the wood had been cut from the inside of the door leading out into White Lion-court—they had cut round the bolt from the inside, by which it was made easy to open—it could be opened without any force whatever.

Jeffery. Q. Did you examine the door of Sir Charles Crossley's room, leading into his office? A. I did—I found no marks of violence whatever on that door—I examined it minutely in company wth other officers.

JOHN THOMAS WALKER . I am the son of Mr. Walker, the proprietor of these jewellery shops in Cornhill, Regent-street, and other places—I manage the Coruhill establishment—on Saturday, 4th February, I left the premises between 5 and half-past in the afternoon, leaving in charge of the place my assistant, William Smith, and leaving also stock in the place to the value of some 6,000l.—I came back on the Monday morning, at 9 o'clock, and found the police in possession and a quantity of our stock missing; 465 watches, 160 gold chains, 55 gold rings, 65 seals and keys, 56 lockets, 5 onyx cameo brooches, a pair of diamond earrings, 30 scarf pins, a quantity of sundry other things, and cash to the amount of 78l. 13s. 4d.—I examined the premises—these two watches (produced) are numbered 3, 040 and 3, 781, but the second one has been altered—I should say the 8 and the I have been altered into an 0 and a 4—the number now is 3, 704—these two watches were in my shop on the evening of the robbery—our name has been taken out of this one, and the name of "W. Hilton, Wilmington-square, London, "put in—John Walker was there before—I don't see any trace of that; it is a complete erasure, and a fresh name—the name and the number have also been erased from the dial-plate—you can see "jon on the dial-plate with the magnifying glass—it was "John Walker"—the movement fits the case.

Cross-examined by MR. PHILIPPE Q. I suppose you have a great number of cases of that same size? A. Yes, but we have not another case that this movement would fit, nor has any watchmaker in London; such a little difference affects it that it would be impossible to get another movement into this case—we have made watches of the same sized movement, but they would not fit into this case—there is a stock number on the case inside, No. 17; it relates to a watch of that number in our stock-book.

MR. SEYMOUR. Q. And did you miss No. 17 on the Monday morning from your stock? A. Yes.

Caseley. Q. Can you tell the exact day, whether it was on the Saturday, Sunday, or Monday morning that the burglars left your premises? A. No, I was not there first on the Monday.

WILLIAM SMITH . I am assistant to Mr. Walker, at the premises in Cornhill—I left there on 4th February at half-past 7—before leaving I placed the whole of the stock in the iron safe—I locked the safe, and took the key with me—I locked the premises up as usual—the place was safely locked up when I left—I left the gas burning on the premises; four burners; three in the shop, and the other over the outside door—those burners are reflected from a mirror in the place on to the iron safe—I returned to the premises at half-past 8 on Monday morning—I then discovered a hole cut in the floor in the back office—I went to the safe, placed my hand on the door, and found it had been broken—it opened directly; the contents were gone—I left no

one on the premises when I went away on the Saturday—I gave information to the police.

Caseley. Q. Can you possibly say whether the burglars quitted the premises! just previous to your coming, or twenty-four hours before? A. I could not say.

JURY. Q. Did any one check the putting in of these goods; did any one assist you in putting the things into the safe? A. No; me alone.

THEODORE HALSTEAD FOULGER (City-policeman). On 4th February, about 4 o'clock in the afternoon, I went to a working watchmaker's shop in Wilderness-row, Goswell-street—I saw Roberts come into the shop—I laid hold of him and pointed to a watch movement contained in this case, which was lying on the counter or work-bench in the shop there was no case with it at that time—I said to Roberts, "Where did you get this movement from?"—he said, "Let me go, and I will tell you"—he struggled to get away—I put my hand in my pocket and pulled out a pair of handcuffs—I slipped one of them on his wrist, and said, "Now will you tell me where you got it from?"—he tried to drop something he had in his hand—I then slipped the other handcuff on the other wrist, and he said, "I picked it of in the Hackney-road"—at that time I had only seen the movement, not the case—Inspector Hamilton and Mr. Walker, jun. then came into the shop—I searched Roberta's pockets—in his coat pocket I found this case, and in another pocket I found this watch complete—I said, "Where did you get this from? "he said, "I picked that up in the Hackney-road also"—I then said, "Where do you live?"—he said, "In Duncan-street, Mile End"—I found a letter on him addressed to Mr. Roberts, and I went to the address on that letter—I have left it at the office—I did not go to Duncan-street, Mile End; I went to 45, West-street, Devonshire-street, Mile End, in consequence of the letter I found in his pocket—it was a weaver's shop—I made a search upstairs, and found a quantity of watchmaker's tools, and about fifty watch-bows, gold and silver—I also found on Roberts 11l. 14s—these bows are second-hand—there may be two or three new ones—I took him to the station—he said he was a weaver.

Cross-examined by MR. PHILIPPS. Q. I suppose you had been watching about some time, had you not? A. yes—I laid hold of him directly he came in—I said, "I am an officer"—I felt something in his hand; it was either the watch or the watch-case—nothing dropped—I don't know what dropped—I did not see him drop anything—I imagine it was the watch that he put into his pocket—I found several women at the address I went to; they were weaving—he said it was his mother-in-law's house, and that he lived with her—working-men have more places than one to work at—I found a number of watchmaker's tools—I found nothing that has been identified as Mr. Walker's—I found no housebreaking implements of any kind.

MR. SEYMOUR. Q. You say that Roberts told you that the house was his mother-in-law's? A. Yes.

Q. Did he say whose the room was in which those things were found? A. He said it was his own, and that he had lived there a number of years.

THOMAS AMBROSE POTTER (Police-inspector, G) On Friday, 24th February, about 3 in the afternoon, I went to 142, Whitechapel-road with Sergeant Moss, Inspector Brannan, and several other officers, who were posted back and front of the house—the lower part of the house was being fitted up as a pie-shop—I knocked at the door, received no answer, and knocked a second time—the door was then opened by Mrs. Jeffery, who I know as Barrett—

I then shoved the door and went in, and saw the man Barrett (Jeffery) titling on a bench—Brewerton was standing in the centre of the shop, and Mrs. Brewerton near him—I said, "Barrett and Brewerton, you must consider you selves in custody for being concerned with others in several jewel robberies in the City and the Strand"—at the time I took Jeffery by the collar, Moss took Brewerton, and a violent struggle took place between them—another officer arrived, and at that time I saw Jeffery pass something to Mrs. Brewerton—she turned round and ran upstairs, followed by Mrs. Jeffery—I gave Jeffery into Ranger's custody, and followed quickly behind the women upstairs—before I could reach the top, Mrs. Brewerton turned aside into the room on the left and locked the door; Mrs. Jeffery went to the right—I knocked at the door where Brewerton went in, and said, "Open the door quickly; "not receiving any answer, I burst it open, and saw her with her right hand putting something in her pocket, taking at the same time something off the mantel-shelf with her left hand and putting it towards her pocket—I said, "What have you got there?"—she said, "Nothing"—I went to take hold of her hand, and she caught me by my hair and my whiskers, and held me in that position until the arrival of Sergeant Moss, who released me—she struggled violently—a sergeant in uniform came up, and he and Moss held her hands while I took from her pocket these four or five parcels (produced) containing gold chains—they were in a piece of old newspaper then—they are all gold chains; most of them new—there were some pieces of broken chain also; they appear pieces of new chain broken up—all I produce now I took from Mrs. Brewerton—I also found a purse containing spade guineas and half guineas, six 5l. notes, and 5l. in gold, some pieces of chain, and four rings—this is the purse (produced)—I also found this small box on the drawers in the room—it contained some lockets, a piece of chain, and another guinea, and two receipts for money paid into the London and Westminster Bank; one for 250l. and one for 150l.—read: "18th January, 1865, received from Mr. William Henry Jeffery 250l. sterling, to the credit of his deposit-account at the London and Westminster Bank;" 23d January, received from Mr. William Henry Jeffery 150l. &c."—I have six 5l. notes here—the 50l. note was found at the other house—we then conveyed the prisoners to the station, and proceeded to 13, Ely-terrace, Bow-road—I knocked at the door, Mrs. Caseley put her head out at the window, and said, "Who are you?"—I knew her at that time by the name of "Casey "only—I said, "We are police-officers; open the door" hearing a bustle in the house, and no one coming to open the door, I burst it open—Moss was close to me at the time—I rushed upstairs followed by him, and saw the woman Caseley run out of a small room at the back into the front-room, where I found the man Caseley—at that moment Brannan came up, and I left him in charge of the two Caseleys in the front-room, and went into the back-room, where I saw Mrs. Caseley come from—in searching that room we found this box locked (produced)—Moss took a poker and broke it open—I lifted the lid and saw a quantity of watches and chains, fifty-two gold watches, and one silver watch, gold coin to the amount of 196l. odd, and a 50l. note—I mentioned at the police-court that it was 246l. but that includes the 50l. note—the money was all in this bag, as it is now; it was taken to the station, untied, and counted in the presence of the superintendent—it has been in Mr. Durkin's possession ever since—we tied a piece of rope round the box and took it to the station—there was a large quantity of gold chains in it—the jewellery and money in the box is all in reference to this robbery—we found another box

containing a large quantity of property, but not connected with this case—on searching the bed I found this life-preserver under the pillow, and downstairs, in the same house, we found a jemmy, and a lot of skeleton-keys—the revolver I found in Caseley's room, in the box—I also found a number of caps and bullets and other things, and a false beard and moustache—most of the skeleton-keys were downstairs in the kitchen—there were also some screw-drivers found—I have produced all the things found in the house, with reference to this case—I took Thomas Caseley to the station with Sergeant Moss—on our way he said, "What robberies are you going to buff to me, as I can prove where I was at the time of Johnson's robbery, and the shawl robbery; I was doing time; I am right for Walker's"—I said, "Who are the others?"—he mentioned the names of two others—he said, if I allowed him to give evidence he would tell me all about it—I told him I should make no promises; that was an after consideration.

Cross-examined by MR. COOPER. Q. When you went to 142, Whiteohapel-road, when you first opened the door, could you see Jeffery standing by himself? A. Sitting by the counter, and Brewerton standing in the middle of the shop, about three yards from him—I had seen them fitting up the shop several days previous—I had been there previously—what I saw Jeffery pass to Brewerton appeared like one of those parcels—Mrs. Brewerton was rather lopsided with all these things—I found this small box on the top of a chest of drawers at Ely-terrace—it was not far off the door of the room—Mrs. Jeffery went into a room on the same landing, that was unoccupied; the gas-fitters had been at work there, laying on the gas—Mrs. Brewerton went upstairs first.

Cross-examined by MR. COLLINS. Q. Was the house furnished? A. A portion of it; a portion of the upstair rooms—I don't remember seeing but one bed; that was in the room into which Mrs. Brewerton went—the pieshop business had not commenced—the street door was shut when I knooked—I saw Brewerton go in not five minutes before—I was not in uniform—I had been watching the house several days—I followed Jeffery and his wife there in the morning; I should think three hours before—there was a struggle between Moss and Brewerton before the women ran upstairs.

Cross-examined by MR. WILLIAMS. Q. What time was it that you went to Ely-terrace? A. Near 4, in the afternoon—I did not wait a minute before I burst the door open—that made some little noise; it was opened momentarily—Mrs. Caseley told me that she and Caseley occupied the front-room, and somebody else inhabited the back.

Jeffery. Q. Directly you came into the shop who did you give me in charge to? A. Hanger, and an officer in uniform; Banger and two other officers came in at the back—I have no doubt Banger took charge of you—I was not half a minute before I went upstairs—there was a counter running up near the centre of the shop, and you were sitting on the counter.

Caseley. Q. Do you know who is the landlord of 13, Ely-terrace? A. No—I did not make any inquiries; I don't believe you are the landlord—I can't say whether you are only a lodger; I know that you and Jeffery were living there—I received a letter from a man who let the house to you or Jeffery, who said he would come forward if he was required—I did not think it was necessary for him to come forward—it is eight or nine steps from the passage to the top of the stairs—it is a straight staircase—I can't say that you did not come out of the room—I was first—I saw no one but your wife—I believe I should have seen you if you had come out—I did not wait half a minute at the front street door before I burst it open, for I heard a rust

ling inside the house—I found there was no noise of any one coming down stairs, and I burnt the door open—the noise was upstairs—I have no doubt it was you or your wife; there was nobody else there—the staircase is not two yards wide—Moss came up behind me—I don't remember, in the cab, hearing any mention made of centre bits that were used to break into Mr. Johnson's premises—if it had been said I don't know that I should have heard it; I might have heard it—I don't remember saying that anything of that kind was said—I am sure you said you were doing time, meaning that you were in prison—I won't be positive whether you said you were in prison at the time or in Birmingham—I asked you who were the others concerned with you—you mentioned the names of two who are standing by the side of you—you did not mention any other names—I said that I found some deeds with the name of Mr. Beard, the solicitor, attached to them—the bill and the deeds were together; they are here just as I found them—I said that I believed you were not man and wife, but I have made inquiries and found that you have been married a short time.

MR. SEYMOUR. Q. Was the box, that contained the fifty-two watches, in the back or front-room at Caseley's? A. The back-room; the room out of which I saw Mrs. Caseley coined—the box was right opposite the door; at the foot of the bed—I said Mr. Beard's name was on the deeds, but it was on the bill of costs attached to them—it is a lease of the premises in the Whitechapel-road.

Caseley. Q. You found nothing in my room relating to Mr. Walker? A. No—I found the balls and powder belonging to the revolver in Jeffery's room—when I found the property, I believe I said to Brannan, "We have found some property, "and told him to be more on his guard to secure you—I don't think I mentioned Mr. Walker's name.

MR. SEYMOUR. Q. What did the rustling you heard sound like? Q. Persons running about upstairs; apparently passing from one room to the other—I had seen furniture go into the house in the Whitechapel-road a day or two before—it appeared new; it was very good—a day or two previous I followed Mrs. Brewerton to a shop, and saw her offer money for a pair of drawers—she had a fish-stall sometime before this in the New-cut, Lambeth, by herself, in the street—her husband was not with her then—when I went upstairs Mrs. Brewerton was in the act of shoving her right-hand into her pocket—she had her left hand on the shelf, and she brought that also to her pocket.

JOHN MOSS (Police-sergeant.) On 24th February I went, with Inspector Potter, Brannan, and other officers, to No. 142, Whitechapel-road—Jeffery, Brewerton, Brewerton's wife, and Jeffery's wife were there—I went upstairs, and saw Mrs. Brewerton holding Mr. Potter by the whiskers—I released Potter, and he then took from Mrs. Brewerton's pocket these five parcels—the prisoners were afterwards taken to the Leman-street station, and we then went to 13, Ely-terrace—Potter knocked at the door, the woman Caseley looked out at the first-floor window, and asked who was there—Potter said "Police"—he stopped for a few seconds, and then forced the door—when I got inside I saw Ann Caseley at the top of the stairs, and Thomas Caseley pass from the back-room to the front—I followed Potter upstairs—I saw both the Caseleys in the front-room—Brannan came up afterwards, and we left him in charge of them while Potter and myself went and searched the back-room—we found two boxes; that small box standing on the top of a larger one—I forced it, and found it contained watches—I afterwards went downstairs, and in the kitchen I found this piece of steel, some keys, and a

jemmy; the jemmy was in a cupboard used for coals—I also found a rope and a pair of false whiskers—there are two places in the rope where there is a knot, which looks as if it was meant for a rope-ladder—it has not been used for that purpose—I took Caseley in a cab to the station—on our way he said, pointing to the box, "You have most of Walker's property there, but what robberies are you going to buff to me; mind, I was not in the shawl robbery nor in Johnson's; I was doing time at the time of the shawl robbery, and I was in Birmingham or Manchester, "I won't be sure which he said, "at the time of Johnson's"—he said also, "That bunch of charms, that Brannan has got, are some of Johnson's property; if I am asked to account for them I shall say I found them on the stairs: my wife is innocent of that, and I don't wish her to suffer"—he said, "The centre-bits you will find at Ned's, and they are what they broke into Walker's and Johnson's with"—he also said, "You have got me right for Walker's, but I know nothing of the others"—since the committal of the prisoners, in searching a bake-house at the rear of 142, Whitechapel-road, I found buried under the bricks, some cameo brooches, and several other articles, consisting of guards, rings, and other things, which I now produce.

Jeffery. Q. Did you see any receipts or certificates in the box? A. I believe Mr. Potter found some receipts in a small box—you have been examined now five or six times—I believe the receipts were yours; they have been in Mr. Durkin's possession since—I was present when the property was taken out of the box at the station—I believe I did not take it out—I broke the box open, and saw that it contained watches—a 50l. note and 1962. 10s. in gold was found in the bag, I think, and then there was a portemonnaie in the same bag, containing a 5l. note, 19l. in gold, and other things.

Caseley. Q. How long did you wait when you knocked at my door? A. Only a few seconds; it might have been half a minute—I saw you come out of the back-room into the front—your wife might have been coming downstairs—you were sitting in a chair, with your back to the wall, when I came upstairs—I stated that this conversation, about the centre-bits, took place in a cab; it did take place in a cab—I don't know whether Potter heard it, he might have heard it—I never said it took place at Bow-street—when we came into your room, I believe you said, "I shall offer no resistance, "or something of that sort—there might have been some expressions used before that—I gave an explanation, in reference to a pin, before the Magistrate—I said I believed I had taken it from a certain prisoner; I explained to the Lord Mayor that I had found that the pin belonged to Jeffery, and not to Brewerton—I believe I did not say that the conversation about the centre-bits was not in the cab but at Bow-street—I also mentioned about the charms before—the conversation, about the charms, took place at Bow-street; not in the cab—I don't know that I said that this morning—I don't know who is the landlord of Ely-terrace—I have not made inquiries—the back-room is as likely to be yours as Jeffery's; there was a bed in both-rooms; there was no bed downstairs—we found some shawls in your room, which have been identified as having been stolen; one of them was apparently a new one—I might have rolled the shawl up and said, "This shawl is part of the shawl robbery"—you said you could prove where you had bought them—we also found some Bilk in the back-room, relating to other burglaries—you were charged with MR. Johnson's robbery—I don't know that you were discharged from it before the Lord Mayor; I should say not.

MR. SEYMOUR. Q. When you apprehended Brewerton did you take a pin out of his tie? A. Yes; I produced a pin when I gave my evidence, believeing

it to be the one I took from Brewerton—we searched the prisoners in the shop—there was a great deal of confusion—we had found no property at that time, and the property found on each prisoner was put into a handkerchief, and it is very likely it may have been put into one instead of the other—I made some mistake about a pin, and afterwards corrected it.

JAMES BRANNAN (Police-inspector, F). I accompanied Moss and Potter, first to Whitechapel-road and then to Ely-terrace—when I saw Caseley at Ely-terrace, I told him that I had come to apprehend him for being concerned in several jewel robberies in the City—he said "I am all right for Walker's, but I know nothing about the others; I can prove I was doing time"—he said that in the first-floor front-room—he was then taken to the station in a cab—I saw Brewerton at the police-station—he called me to his cell and said, "Whatever has been found on my wife I gave her; she is innocent; she knows nothing about it, so help me God"—he had been shown the property before he said that, by Potter—after the last examination I saw him in the cell at the Mansion-house—he called me and said, "If you will give my Missus 10l. you may keep 40l.; I won't say a word about it, so help me God"—I took the jemmy, found by Moss, to Mr. Walker's premises—I went to the Messrs. Crossley's office, on the first-floor front, which is over Mr. Walker's shop, and compared the marks that were on the door—they appeared recent—the marks were on the door-post, as if the jemmy had been pressed as a lever to force open the lock of the door; it was tried in three places—the marks corresponded with the jemmy exactly.

Jeffery. Q. Who went with you? A. Superintendent Durkin and Mr. Walker, Jun.—I did not know that Mr. Walker, Jun, had examined the door before; I did not ask him—the door opens from you—the marks on door-post were from the back of the jemmy; it did not leave a very deep impression, because when it was tried there is no doubt there was an easier mode of access found out; a large place was pointed oat to roe by Sir Charles Crossley, which had been repaired, and which the thieves had got through into the tailor's shop—I have not inquired how the door was forced open, or whether the lock was injured.

Caseley. Q. When you came to Ely-terrace, how long did you wait from the time you knocked at the door till the time you saw my wife? A. About three minutes to the time we got up into your room—I saw your wife pass from the back to the front—you were sitting on a chair, under the window—I did not see you on the stairs—I should have seen you if you had been there—I never mentioned Mr. Walker's name—when I came up I said, "Tom, I have come to apprehend you"—I did not know you by the name of Tom; I was told—I said, "I believe you had a hand in Mr. Abraham's burglary?"—I did not say, "I apprehend you for Mr. Abraham's"—you have not been identified as one of the men in Mr. Abraham's burglary—people have been identified, and sworn to—I shall decline to answer the question at present whether I am aware that you did not commit me. Johnson's burglary—I found a quantity of jewellery in your possession, which has been identified as Mr. Johnson's property—I did not find it then—you said to your wife, "Give me those things that Billy gave you"—I did not know they belonged to Mr. Johnson then—I have heard your other name; it is "Tom, the madman"—we heard that wherever we found Barrett, we should find "Tom, the madman, "which was you—that is a nickname you are known by amongst the thieves—I can't say you have not been at work since you were discharged from the convict-gate, up to the time you were charged with Mr. Walker's burglary—you did not say that you

found the jewellery your wife had, on the stairs; you said, "Give me those things that Billy gave you"—I said, "Who's Billy?"—you said, "My landlord"—I said, "What is his name?"—you said, "Billy Barrett"—I said, "We have him in custody"—I believe Jeffery is the landlord of 13, Elyterrace—I believe you were a lodger there—I ascertained that Jeffery was living a short time previous in the Guildford-road—the staircase of 13, Elyterrace is quite straight; you can see the two room doors from the bottom of it—it might be a yard from one door to the other.

MR. SEYMOUR. Q. Who was first in Caseley's house? A. Potter, and Moss next; I was last—I went into the downstair rooms.

JEANETTE TARRIFF . I am the wife of Peter Tarriff, of Bromley—I know the prisoners Mr. and Mrs. Jeffery; they lodged at my house down to 16th February; I remember Saturday, 4th February; the man, Jeffery, was not at home that night—I did not see him the next day, but I heard his voice about a quarter-past 2 in the afternoon, as near as I can recollect—Mrs. Jeffery was in the house; she was in bed some minutes before 12 on the Saturday—when he came home she opened the door for him—I heard him say, "Good morning, Missus, if it isn't too late, "and she replied, "You scamp, "and went in the front-parlour—I also heard a sort of laugh, as if there were two more coming in at the same time—I know Brewerton by sight; I have seen him in Jeffery's company frequently, twice a-day very often, coming in and going out.

Cross-examined by MR. COOPER. Q. And I suppose you have seen many others call there? A. No; I am not in the habit of going to the door—what they came about I don't know.

Cross-examined by MR. COLLINS. Q. Your house is at Bromley? A. 66, Guildford-street, Bromley; Mr. and Mrs. Jeffery had lived there nine weeks—on Saturday, 4th February, I am sure Mrs. Jeffery was in bed before 12.

Jeffery. Q. Do you remember meeting my wife on the Sunday night? A. Yes, at 11 o'clock; she came in—I was at the door; I knew your voice when I heard it—I should say I saw you more than twenty times during the nine weeks you were at my house—I saw you when you did not expect it—you did not speak to me above four or Eve times—the door was not shut when I heard you speak to your wife—I did not know you when I first saw you at Bow-street, because you had got your hat on, but I knew Brewerton—I did not know his name.

JOSEPH GEORGE HICKS . I am an engraver at 5, little Northampton-street, Clerkenwell; I have known the prisoner Roberts about twelve months—in February last, he brought a watch to me to engrave—I afterwards showed that watch to Foulger—there was no name on it when Roberts brought it to me; it was a plain plate; I engraved the name of "Hilton, Wilmington-square, London, "on it—this is the plate—I took it to Wilderness-row to a watchmaker's by Roberts' direction.

Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. Q. Did you know Roberts before? A. Not by the name of Roberts—I knew him about twelve months ago—I have been living there all that time; I am well known in the trade; I did not know that he was a working jeweller—I did not know what trade he was—I left the plate at Mr. Todd's, a watchmaker's in Wilderness-row, for him.

GEORGE BENNETT . I am an Inspector of the Thames Police—on 25th February, about 7 in the morning, I was passing near Blaekfriars'-bridge in a boat, and found these two watches (produced)—twelve were found

altogether; they are here—I handed the two I found to Inspector Hamilton.

Cross-examined by MR. COLLINS. Q. Could you judge how long the watches had been there? A. No; I don't think they were injured in any way—the prisoners were in custody at the time I found the watches.

JURY. Q. Where did you find them? A. On a piece of wood on the foot-passenger bridge at Blackfriars—on the top of the wood; they might have been thrown from the bridge.

THOMAS AMBROSE POTTER (re-examined). I followed Caseley to 13, Elyterrace, the night before, and away the next morning.

JOHN THOMAS WALKER (re-examined). I have examined this property before; I am able to speak to the chains and watches, and the brooches—I know nothing about these coins—we lost 70l. in money, gold, notes, and silver; there were two 10l. notes, and a country 5l. note; not a 5l. Bank-of-England note, or a 50l. note—we lost also some lockets, and bracelets, and other things—I identify all the property found under the bricks in the Whitechapel-road—some of the chains have our tickets on them—I can't say how long the watches had been in the river—the total value of the property recovered is 1, 700l.; the property lost is worth 6, 070l.

COURT to WILLIAM HAMILTON. Q. I think you went first of all to MR. Walker's premises on 6th February? A. Not first of all; I was the first of the police who went—I examined the premises about 10 or a little after—I examined Sir Charles Crossley's door—I should imagine it had been opened by a skeleton-key; there were no marks of violence that I saw at the time on the door; I examined it carefully—I examined all the doors—(Brannan stated that it was the outer door in the passage on which the marks were)—I examined that door, and all the doors, and saw not the slightest mark at all on any of them—Foulger and young Mr. Walker were with me at the time—I did know then of any jemmy being found; I came at once to the conclusion that it had been opened by a skeleton-key—the lock was in perfect order, and I believe has been used since.

JOHN THOMAS WALKER (re-examined). I was present at the time of this examination by Brannan, and saw some marks—I had not seen them before that.

JAMES BRANNAN (re-examined.) We had to get a candle to see them.

GEORGE RANGER (Policeman, G. 199) Jeffery. Q. Did you go and find some tools, a jemmy amongst them? A. No; I found some tools, but not a jemmy; I examined the doors with Brannan.

Caseley. Q. Did you find the centre-bits? A. I did, and Borne skeleton. keys with them, at 142, Whitechapel-road; that is not where you resided—I also found some carpenters' tools with the center-bits; they are tools which burglars use in general—I don't know that carpenters use them—I don't know that they are sold in carpenters' tool-shops.

MR. METCALFE to THEODORE HALSTEAD FOULGER. Q. I don't think you mentioned the name of the watchmaker in Wilderness-row? A. I had reason for not mentioning it—it was Todd; that was the shop at which I took Roberts—after he was in custody at his request, Inspector Hamilton, and I visited him in Newgate; he made a statement to us, which afterwards proved to be correct—he made several statements, but one I may say was correct.

THE COURT, considering that there was not sufficient evidence against Ann Caseley and Louisa Brewerton, and MR. COLLINS having handed in a certificate

of the marriage of Martha Jeffery, the Jury found a verdict of

NOT GUILTY as to those prisoners.

Thomas Caseley, in the course of a long address, commented upon the evidence, and stated that since he had last come out of prison he had been getting an honest living, and had no connexion with any of the burglaries he had been apprehended for; he explained the expression he had made use of when he was taken, as one of surprise; he stated that he did not say, "I wot right for Walkers' job, "but that what he said was, "My God, what will you say next! what next are you going to buff for me!"—he also stated that he was at Birmingham at the time of Johnson's robbery, and therefore he could not know what implements were used to effect it, and that he never knew that it was committed till he was taken: he also stated that he wished to call the following witnesses to show that he was engaged to sing at a concert on 6th February.

JAMES TALBOT . I am a chair-maker—Caseley has worked for me, but not for the last two months.

Caseley. Q. Do you remember where I came from when I came to work for you? A. From Birmingham—you worked for me about six months—I discharged you about three weeks previous to 6th February—I know you did four years, and when you came home you asked me to give you some work, and I did—you never cheated me, or did anything wrong—I was at a concert on 6th February; you were in the front of the room in the chair; I am certain I saw you that night.

Cross-examined by MR. DIGBY SEYMOUR. Q. Where do you live? A. 4, Ivy-street—I have been there about five years; not in the same house—I had something to do with getting this concert up—I went there about half-past 8, with my wife—Caseley was conducting the concert; he was the deputy I think.

Caseley. Q. Do you remember seeing these bills? (producing one) A. Yes, about three weeks or a fortnight before the concert, it was held at the Prince Albert tavern, Hoxton Old Town.

THOMAS CASELEY . I am the prisoner's father—I remember 6th February quite well—I engaged him to take the chair for me at this concert—I am a decorator and writer, and the landlord I was doing work for asked me to join him in getting up this concert, and I asked my son to take the chair, he being rather full of mouth—I have seen these bills, they were out about three weeks before the concert, my son's name was put in as one of the per-formers and publicly put round in the vicinity.

JURY. Q. Do you know where your son was on 4th February? A. I do not, I had not seen him for about four days, and I told him that the bilk were done and his name was on them, and I hoped he would not disappoint.

Cross-examined. Q. Where was your son living on the 4th? A. I don't know, because he got married, and I said, "Now, Tom, you are big enough to take a wife and now go and live where you like and I will give you a job when you want one"—he was married on 2nd January, and I don't know where he lived after that.

MRS. TALBOT. On 6th February I was at the Prince Albert concert-room—I saw Caseley there in the chair—I have seen his name on these bills, I saw them about a fortnight before the concert, his name was on them.

Cross-examined. Q. Did you know Caseley before? A. Yes; I have known him for three or four years—not the last three or four years—I did not know where he was living, I only saw him at the concert-room.

ROBERTS received a good character.

GUILTY on the second Count.

BREWERTON, JEFFERY and CASELEY GUILTY on the first Count. BREWERTON and CASELEY were further charged with having been before convicted of felony, Brewerton on 26th October, 1863, and Caseley in the name of George Hill, on 21st May, 1860, to which they


(See page 564)

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-416
VerdictNot Guilty > no evidence

Related Material

416. MARTHA JEFFERY, LOUISA BREWERTON and ANN CASELEY were again indicted for feloniously breaking into the shop of William Johnson, and stealing therein. Upon which no evidence was offered against them.


FOURTH COURT.—Wednesday, April 12th, 1865.

Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

The following prisoners PLEADED GUILTY:—

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-417
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

Related Material

417. JOHN JASPER STONE, (39) to embezzling 18l. 8s. 2d., 18l. 8s. 9d. and 12l. 10s. of Henry Shepherd Law and another.— Five Years' Penal Servitude. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-418
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

Related Material

418. EDWARD PRIOR, (18) to stealing a pair of boots, the property of Eleazer Poole—— Confined Eighteen Months. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-419
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

Related Material

419. ALFRED ABERY, (18) to stealing 2 reams of writing-paper, the property of Charles Davis and another.— Confined Nine Months. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-420
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

Related Material

420. JOHN TILLEY, (24) to feloniously marrying Jane Lewis, his wife being alive.— Confined Twelve Months. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-421
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment; Imprisonment > other institution

Related Material

421. ALFRED PAINTON, (13) to stealing 24 fishing-rods, value 6l. 6s., the property of Giles Little.— Confined Six Months, and afterwards three years in a Reformatory. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-422
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

Related Material

422. HENRY HARRIS, (20) to stealing a watch, the property of Frederick Henry Harvey from his person.— Ten years' Penal Servitude. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-423
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

Related Material

423. HENRY HEPBURN,** (23) to stealing a watch, the property of Charles Edwin Green from his person.— Seven years' Penal Servitude. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-424
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment; Imprisonment > penal servitude

Related Material

424. JOHN SMITH (35) and LUKE MACDONALD,** (30) to stealing 41 lbs. of lead, the property of Florentine Bonette.— SMITH Confined Nine Months , MACDONALD Seven years'Penal Servitude. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-425
VerdictsGuilty > pleaded guilty

Related Material

425. EDWARD BARNES, (21) to three indictments for embezzling 6l. 18s., 8l. 8s. 9d. and 1l. 17s. 9d. of Robert Bright and another his masters. Confined Nine Months. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-426
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

Related Material

426. JOHN HARRIS,** (73) to stealing a pewter measure, the property of Reuben George Cheek.— Confined Twelve Months. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-427
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

Related Material

427. JOHN REILLY, (43) to Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.— Confined Six Months. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-428
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

Related Material

428. CHARLES WATKINS, (26) stealing a watch, the property of Henry Krebs Claypole from his person.— Confined Fifteen Months. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-429
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

Related Material

429. EDWARD HEAVENS,* (18) to stealing a watch and chain, the property of Samuel Doughty.— Confined Twelve Months. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-430
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

Related Material

430. FREDERICK BLACK IE,* (18) to stealing 3 shirts, value 15s., the property of Benjamin Jenner.— Confined Twelve Months. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-431
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

Related Material

431. WILLIAM RICHARDS, (20) to stealing a watch, the property of Henry Lewis from his person.— Confined Six Months. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-432
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment; Miscellaneous > sureties

Related Material

432. FREDERICK BEVOR (48) , to unlawfully threatening Sarah Rachel Leverson to publish a libel concerning her, with intent to extort money.— Confined Three Months; and to enter into recognizances. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-433
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

Related Material

433. JOHN SMITH,* (29) to unlawfully obtaining by false pretences from Susan Hill, 10 lbs. of meat, with intent to defraud.— Confined Six Months; and [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-434
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

Related Material

434. CHARLES WRENN, (28) to embezzling 3l. 10s., 9l. 9s. and 8l. of Hyam Levy and another, his masters— Confined Twelve Months. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-435
VerdictGuilty > lesser offence

Related Material

435. CHARLES RUSSELL, (24) was indicted for stealing a watch the property of John Joseph Saville from his person.

MR. WHARTON conducted the Prosecution.

JOHN JOSEPH SAVILLE . I am a lighterman, and live at No. 4, Johnson-street, Wapping—about ten o'clock on 25th March I was standing on Fish-street-hill—I saw the prisoner standing there—he came and stood on my left side, and I then saw my watch in his hands—my chain was disconnected from it—I seized his hand—the ring of the watch had been broken—the watch is worth about 30s.

Prisoner. Q. Did you tell the constable at the station that you did not know whether I was the man who stole the watch? A. I did not—I re-member distinctly taking my watch out of your hand—I did not lay my hand on your shoulder and say, "I think you are the chap"

CHARLES BUNDOCK . (City-policeman., 504) I was in Fish-street-hill at about 10 o'clock on 25th March—the prisoner was given in my custody by the prosecutor for stealing his watch.

COURT (to J. J. Saville) Q. Do you know whether you broke the watch from the chain in snatching it from the prisoner, or whether the prisoner did that? A. I do not know, the watch was in his hand and I might have broken it—I took the watch out of his hand.

GUILTY of attempting to Steal. Confined Six Months.

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-436
VerdictGuilty > unknown

Related Material

436. HENRY JOHNSON, (19) Stealing a purse and two florins, the property of Frances Sophia Richardson, from her person.

MR. GENT conducted the Prosecution.

FRANCES SOPHIA RICHARDSON . I was standing on Blackfriars-bridge at half-past two on 8th March—I had a child in my arms—I felt the prisoner touch the child's legs—I immediately put the child down and the prisoner went away—I felt in my pocket and missed my purse—it contained two florins, one shilling, and a "counter "and some pence—I recognise this u counter (produced) as being in my purse shortly before I stopped on the bridge—as soon as I missed my purse I went after the prisoner and accused him of having taken it—he said he had not got it and that I might feel in his pockets—I followed him until I saw a constable and then I gave him in charge—my purse was quite safe three minutes before I saw the prisoner—this (produced) is a similar counter to the one I lost.

ROBERT PRETTY (City-policeman), 382. I was on Blackfriars-bridge on 8th March—the prosecutrix gave the prisoner into my custody for stealing her purse—I took him to the station—I asked him if he had any money about him and he said, "No"—I searched him and found two florins and a "counterpiece, "some coppers, a ring, a pipe and a knife.

COURT. Q. Did you say anything to him about his telling you he had no money? A. Yes; and he said he did not say so.

Prisoner's Defence. When I left home I had seven shillings in my pocket; I was going to buy a pair of boots, and when I was searched nothing was found upon me only my own money.

Witness for the Defence.

THOMAS JOHNSON . I am the prisoner's father—I know what money he had when he left home on 8th March—he had two two-shilling-pieces, two shillings and two sixpences—I know he had this money because I gave it to him—he had his dinner with me at half-past one and he was in custody at half-past two.

GUILTY .— Confined Nine Months.

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-437
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

Related Material

437. JOHN BURNS, (23) and JOHN LYONS, (23) Robbery on John Francks, and stealing from his person a coat and waistcoat his property.

MR. PLATT conducted the Prosecution.

JOHN FRANCKS . I am a seaman—on 2nd April I and two of my shipmates were walking in Wellclose-square—the prisoners and several other men were there—the prisoners came up to me and asked me to treat them, I said I had not got any money to treat them with—my shipmates left me and after they had gone the prisoners came up to me again—Burns unbuttoned my coat and waistcoat and pulled them off my back—it was a loose easy coat—Lyons came and took the coat out of Burn's hands—they then ran away—I saw a policeman and gave Burns in charge, and afterwards Lyons—he then had my coat on his arm—he was about fifty feet from Burns—the clothes were worth about 10s.—I think the prisoners were a little drunk.

JOSEPH NICHOLS . I live at 17, Wellclose-square—on 2nd April I saw the prisoners running down Ship-alley—Lyons had a coat and waistcoat on his arm.

JAMES BLACKWELL (Policeman, H 4.) About a quarter past twelve on 2nd April I saw the prosecutor at the top of Ship-alley, without his coat—I afterwards saw Lyons with it on hisarm, coming up the alley towards the square—I took him in custody—Burns was taken by another constable.

CHARLES AUSTIN (Policeman, H 107.) I took Burns—he was very violent—I think he was the worse for liquor.

JOHN FRANCKS (re-examined.) These are the coat and waistcoat I had on. Burns Defence. I was with my shipmates in a public-house and was going on board my ship in the morning, and I got drunk, at the public-house. I was going up the square when the prosecutor came up to me and gave me in charge for unbuttoning his coat If I had been sober I would not have picked up such a coat as that in the street.


10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-438
VerdictGuilty > with recommendation

Related Material

438. CHARLOTTE WEATHERLY (19) Unlawfully endeavouring to conceal the birth of her child.

MR. HARRY PALMER conducted the Prosecution.

GUILTY.—Recommended to mercy. Confined One Month.

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-439
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

Related Material

439. WILLIAM BROWN, (20) Burglariously breaking and entering the dwelling-house of William Godfrey, and stealing therein a table-cloth and other articles, his property.

MR. LEESON conducted the Prosecution.

WILLIAM GODFREY . I am a bricklayer—I live in Susan-road, Bethnalgreen—on 17th March I went to bed at five minutes past 9 o'clock—the windows were shut and the doors closed—I was awoke by a cry of "Thieves!"—I ran down stairs and saw the prisoner in the hands of Billett at the front door—I then examined my house and found some table-cloths and window-curtains rolled up lying in the balcony—when I closed the house the window-curtains was lying on the sofa upstairs—some books also had been removed—the property was worth about 2l. 10s.

COURT. Q. Was any door or window disturbed? A. The window on the ground floor was opened—a person could get in there when it was opened—it is about a yard from the ground—there was no fastening to the window, and it could be easily opened from the outside.

THOMAS BILLETT . I am a boxmaker, and lodge at the prosecutor's house

—on 17th March I returned home about a quarter-past 9—I saw the prisoner with his head out of the parlour window—I asked who he was, and he said, "It is me, it is only me; it is all right"—I caught hold of him by the collar—I held him until the door was opened, and put him in the passage until the constable came—I saw a bundle on the balcony.

GEORGE EVANS (Policeman, K 352.) I took the prisoner on the evening of 17th March—I produce the bundle that was handed to me—he did not say anything when I told him the charge.

GUILTY .**— Seven years' Penal Servitude ,

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-440
VerdictGuilty > unknown

Related Material

440. JEREMIAH MCCARTHY (21) , Feloniously assaulting Charles Savage, with intent to rob him.

MR. DALY conducted the Prosecution.

CHARLES SAVAGE . I am a carver and gilder, and live at 16, Turner-street, Stepuey—about twenty-five minutes past 12 on 31st March I was in Whitechapel passing Plough-alley, when the prisoner threw his arms round me—a lad about fourteen came up and raised my over coat several times, and attempted to take my watch and chain—I threw the prisoner on his back—he called for assistance and some one said, "Hit him"—in the struggle the prisoner's cap fell off—I picked it up, and handed it to the constable—I do not know what became of the boy—I have not seen him since—the prisoner got away and ran down Plough-court into the arms of a policeman.

WILLIAM GULLEY (Policeman, H 97.) I heard a cry of "Police!" on 31st March—I saw the prisoner and prosecutor struggling on the ground in High-street, Whitechapel—I was going towards them, and the prisoner got up and ran towards me—I stopped him, the prosecutor came up and said, "That is the man—the prisoner had no cap on—he did not say anything then—on the way to the station he said to the prosecutor, "Give me your hand old fellow, and give me my cap"—the prosecutor gave me the cap—I saw two boys running when I had hold of the prisoner.

GUILTY .— Confined Nine Months.

NEW COURT.—Thursday, April 13, 1865.

Before Mr. Justice Shee.

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-441
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

Related Material

441. JOHN WALTERS (36) , Robbery on Joseph Frederick Chillingworth, and stealing from his person 37 ounces of gold, his property.

MR. LEWIS conducted the Prosecution, and MR. WARNER SLEIGH the Defence.

JOSEPH FREDERICK CHILLINGWORTH . I am in the employment of Messrs. Herbert, jewellers, of Newman-street, Oxford-street—on the afternoon of 12th February I took some gold to the flatting mills at Clerkenwell—I was bringing it back in the evening at twenty minutes or half-past 7—when I was nearly at the top of Newman-street, I saw three men, the prisoner, and another man were standing near Newman's yard, and a tall man with a light coat on was standing in Newman's yard—when I got near the man who was standing down the Mews he said, "Here, George, is this St. Ann's Court"—I did not answer him, and he made a rush at me, and caught me by the coat—I tried to cry out "Murder!" but could not; he then caught me tighter—I had a strap over my shoulder, with a bag under my left arm, containing thirtyseven ounces of gold, four crucibles, an account-book, and a tin case—the prisoner and the other man then shut one of the gates at the end of the Mews, and then they ran down to me, and the prisoner cut the strap which

was across ray shoulder, but I do not know who got the bag; he also cut my coat and my shirt—the other man then threw me down with great violence on the stones; he lifted me off the ground—I was stunned; and when I got up they had gone—I went to my master's shop and told the foreman—I can speak positively to the prisoner—I did not see him again till 31st January, when I picked him out from eight other people at Old-street station.

Cross-examined. Q. Are the Mews like a street? A. Yes; eight doors up Newman-street—I saw the prisoner in Newman-street before I turned into the Mews, and I was just turning into the Mews when I saw the man with the light coat—I dare say the Mews is fifty yards long—there was a lamp there about twelve yards from Newman-street—I was attacked just opposite the lamp by a man who is not in custody—I had not time to answer his question before he grappled with me—the man, who I believe to be the prisoner wore a billycock hat—he used both hands in cutting the bag and pulled the strap rather roughly to get it quick—the other man was then holding me—I will not swear that I saw the prisoner cut it, or that he is the man, but I believe it—I recognised him by his general appearance—I do not know which carried the bag when they ran away—I was senseless for about half a minute—I went to the top of the Mews but could not see them—I did not notice whether the person I think to be the prisoner had one eye or two.

COURT. Q. Are you quite sure the prisoner is one of the two men who ran up? A. I am quite sure he is one of the men who stood at the top of the Mews, and who ran up when the tall man had hold of me.

BENJAMIN BRYANT (Police-inspector.) On 31st January, about 8 in the morning, I took the prisoner at his lodgings in Moss-buildings; he was in bed—on the way to the station in a cab, I told him he was charged with being concerned with Long Fred and another person, now in Newgate, with violently assaulting a boy and stealing a quantity of gold from him—he said, "Well, it is a bad job; don't tell my old woman"—I took him to the station.

Cross-examined. Q. Was anybody with him? A. A woman—I have beard that she is not his wife—I believe one of his arms is a little. contracted.

WILLIAM WILD . I am in the employment of Messrs. Jackson and Graham—on evening of 12th January, I was passing Newman-yard, and saw three men as I thought larking with the boy down the yard—I watched them and saw them push him down—they ran to the top of the yard towards me—I looked round and by the light of the lamp from the opposite public-house, I saw three men—one of them was the prisoner—I afterwards described him to the inspector on 31st January—I was taken to the police-station George-street; the prisoner was placed with about seven other men, and I picked him out—I am certain he is one of the three I saw run through the gate way.

Cross-examined. Q. How far down the Mews were the three men when you saw them larking with Chillingworth? A. About six yards down the Mews—it was not quite dark; it was not very light, because one of the gates was closed at the side where the lamp is—I could see the prisoner in the court, but it was when he came to the top of the yard that I saw him to know him again—I stood looking at him then—it was lighter in the street—the light came from the public-house on the other side of Newman-street—I did not see his full face; he had a large hat on with a limp brim—I could see

his face—I identified him by his general appearance, and by what part of his face I did see, I swear positively he is the man—I have always said so.

SARAH JOHNSON . In the early part of January I was being brought up in the police-van from the House of Detention for stealing a tea-pot—when the van stopped the door was opened and the little trap as well, and I asked some one who was there if we had got to Marlborough station—the man said, "No, it is Marylebone, are you the old lady for the tea-pot"—I said, "Yes, I am, and if they swear a falsehood against me as they did when I was taken, I am sure I shall get either two or three months"—he said, "Well I would rather be you than me, for I expect fourteen years"—I said that is a bad job, and asked him what it was for—he said, "For the gold robbery in Newman-street, Oxford-street, have not you heard of it"—I said, "Yes, I have heard of it, but surely you are not one of them"—he did not say yes or no, but he said, "I had a share of the bulk"—he called me "Nelly," and said he knew me by serving fourteen months with his wife at Tothill-fields—I said, "You are mistaken altogether in the person, I have never done so"—he said there were three of them in the robbery, but one had got away—I said, I supposed he lived near Marlborough-street as he was taken there—he said no, he was taken at Whitechapel, he lived at Whitechapel—I then asked him if anything was found upon him when he was taken—he said no, he took good care of that, for when he found it was the Bobby at the door, he wetted his fingers, slipped his rings off, and put them under his old woman's pillow, and what else he could in the time be had—when we got out of the van I said, "Now am I the party you took me for"—he said, "No, I am mistaken, you will see my wife presently, and you will know her by serving eighteen months with her;"but it is false—I was discharged for the tea-pot.

Cross-examined. Q. Had you ever been in a police-van before? No—I am in custody now—there is a passage between the cells of the police-van, just wide enough for one person to pass through—when you are put into the cells the door is locked upon you, and there are doors on both sides of the passage—you do not have to speak through the two doors—there is a little trap about the size of that book, which opens in the door—that was opened for our convenience, I suppose—the policeman left it open—it was a trap-door even with our faces—the trap-door in the prisoner's cell was open, and he set right facing me—I told Inspector Bryant when we went to the police-court—I did not see the prisoner charged, but I was brought; away from the police-court in the same van—there are generally a great many in the cell together waiting to be taken to the police-court, but there were not then—there was only one female besides me—they do not put the males and females together.

MR. LRWIS.Q. Had you ever seen the prisoner before? A. Never, to my knowledge—the man told me it was Marylebone-street—I do not know.

HERBERT. On the afternoon of 12th February my foreman sent some gold to the flattening-mills—Chilling worth bad to bring it back—it was my property, and was worth from 115l. to 120l.

GUILTY.* Fourteen Years' Penal Servitude.

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-442
VerdictGuilty > lesser offence

Related Material

442. JAMES DONOGHUE, (60) Feloniously cutting and wounding Michael Solon with intent to do him some grievous bodily harm.

MR. GENT conducted the Prosecution.

MICHAEL SOLON . I live at Plaistow-marsh—early on the morning of 26th February, between 12 and 1 o'clock, I was coming from the music-hall, and

was on the Poplar side of the ironbridge—Bryaut was with me—I met the prisoner, who I knew, with a bundle on his shoulder, and I have worked with him—one of my friends said, "There is old Jemmy Donoghue"—I said, "What have you got here, Jemmy; have you got 10lbs. of beef?"and I touched it—I said, "Are you coming home, Jemmy?"—he said, "You are a b——y Garibaldi b——r"—I went to the gate, and saw the bundle lying down there—I asked him what he had got there—he said, "Leave that down, it don't belong to you"—he used bad language, and I thought he wanted to raise a quarrel and to fight, so I threw off my coat and went near him to a place where there was a toll-gate—I went in the attitude to strike him, but did not, and Bryant sang out, "Mind, Solon, he has got a knife"—I got behind him to prevent his using the knife—my arms were in front of him—I felt something done to my left arm, and it dropped dead by my side—there were two wounds—he must have cut my arm down—I have been in the hospital four weeks and two days—he was taken in charge—as we went along, he said he was sorry he did not cut my b——y head off, and cut my bowels out and my private parts—I should be sorry to use the expressions. I have not got the use of my arm yet.

Prisoner. Q. Did not you strike me twice on the head with your fist? A. No, I had not time—I did not attempt to get the bundle from you, it was only just a joke—I pulled off my coat to gratify you, because I thought you wanted to fight.

Prisoner. I had the knife in my hand to defend myself, and you cut yourself; I was rather the worse for liquor.

DAVID BRYANT . I was with Solon—some words passed between him and Solon, and Solon pulled off his coat—the bundle lay on the pay box of the bridge, and Solon took hold of it, but he did not go to take it away—the prisoner told him to put it down, it did not belong to him—he put it down directly and walked away—they were chaffing one another, but I do not exactly recollect the words that were passed—he took his coat off—Donoghue pulled his coat off, and said, "If you want fighting I will give you fighting, "and he out with his knife—I hallooed to Solon to look out, as he had got a knife—Solon got behind him, and caught hold of him round the arms, and the prisoner cut him twice with the knife on the left arm—he was given in custody.

Prisoner. Q. Did not he strike me twice or three times on the bead before he took his coat off? A. I do not remember seeing him strike you at all, and I was there all the time.

WILLIAM WATTS (Policeman, K 38). I was on duty on the iron bridge, Bromley—Solon gave the prisoner into my charge—I saw a very severe wound on his arm—I said, "Have you got a knife in your pocket?"—the prisoner said, "Yes"—I said, "You had better give it to me"—he gave me this knife, and said, "He struck me three times, and any man that would strike me, I would cut his b——y guts out"—he had been drinking.

GEORGE WELLER . I am housesurgeon at the London Hospital—Solon was brought there on 26th February, and I found two incised wounds at the back of his left wrist, one three inches long, dividing the tendons of the arm, and entering into the wristjoint; the second was about two and a half inches long, four inches above the first wound; not so deep but sufficiently so to divide the muscle, also an artery, which was bleeding profusely, and which I tied—he was under my care a month, and is now discharged quite cured, but he will never have the full use of his hand again: this knife would cause

the wound, it seems pretty sharp—it would not require a great deal of force, and might on that part of the body do more injury than was intended.

Prisoner's Defence. I was nearly out of my mind with drink; he knocked me about and I told him I would stand in my own defence, and that is the way he got it I am sixty years of age and was never known to fight or else he would not have attacked me. I am very sorry for it now.

The Prosecutor gave him a good character.

GUILTY of unlawfully wounding. Confined Six Months.

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-443
VerdictGuilty > with recommendation

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443. EDWARD PACKER, Robbery, with two others, on David Killigrew, and stealing from his person 3s. his money.

MR. WILLIAMS conducted the Prosecution, and MR. LANGFORD the Defence.

DAVID KILLIGREW (a cripple.) I am a tailor, and lived in Adam and Eve-court, St. Luke's—on 25th December, about half-past 12 at night I was going down Milton-street, Si Luke's, and the prisoner, who I had known for six months, spoke to me as I passed through Crown-court, and asked me if I bad any money to give him a treat—I said if I thought there was a pawnbroker's open I would pawn my waistcoat to oblige him—he made no answer but kicked my crutch from under me—I hopped after it, but he took it up before I was able to reach it—I put it under my arm and was going to cross the street when he came and gave me a clout in the stomach which brought me to the ground—two men came up and took hold of me by the feet while the prisoner took the pocket out of my trousers, with 3s. and some pence in it—they all three ran into a house in Crown-court—I went after the prisoner and knocked at the door several times with this stick—a woman came and I told her to send out the three men who robbed me just now—she went back and brought a bason of water and threw it in my face—I went and met three policemen to whom I described the prisoner—on 19th March I went into a public-house in Milton-street, and saw the prisoner there—he came to me and said, "I beg your pardon, will you excuse me, I am very sorry for what I have done, ana any amount of money that will compensate you—I will get a raffle for you on Saturday night, and get 1/. for you"—I did not say that I would give him in charge because I was afraid—there were about a dozen of them round me when be said that he would get up 1l. for me—I said, "Less will do me"—he said, "Then you mean to lock me up"—I said "No; but I will give you time"—I went out, went round Bunh Ill-row and met a policeman, who went down the street, but I did not go with him—I went up to the corner of Milton-street, and the prisoner was there with a lot of his comrades, tailors and other people—he followed me down Milton-street—as I went to hurry the policeman said, "I will kill you,"—I said, "No; I will kill you first"—the policeman then came up with me and they all came away from the corner.

Cross-examined. Q. Has the prisoner worked for you? A. No; nor with me—I had known him six months at the time he did it—I do not know whether he is a tailor—I was at work last summer at Camden-town, and he and a great many more used to come up the court playing for money—this was the morning of Christmas-day, about a quarter past 12 o'clock—he spoke to me first—I did not know where he lived—he was not in liquor, to my knowledge.

WILLIAM MILLER (Policeman, G 148). Two or three days after Christmas-day, the prosecutor gave me some information—I saw the prisoner some time afterwards, but so long that I had almost forgotten about it—I then saw the prosecutor again, and searched for the prisoner again, and on 22nd

March, found him in a beer-shop in Milton-street, City, with about twenty others—I said, "Carrots, you have; to come along with me"—he said, "What for?" I told him I would tell him when I was outside—I had a City-sergeant outside—I told him I should take him in custody for a robbery in Milton-street, about a week back, and also for robbing a cripple last Christmas—he said, "You will have to prove the robbery at Christmas, and the other is too long back"—I was present at the Clerkenwell Police-court when the depositions were read over in the prisoner's presence—the prosecutor made a statement about the prisoner's working—he said, "That is wrong; he never worked with me," but itwas never altered by the clerk.

COURT. Q. You called him out of the house by a nick-name? A. I did—I knew he went by that name—the prosceutor told me that it was Carrots that had done it, and another one named Buck—I searched for him immediately after Christmas, but could not find him for a long while.

GUILTY.—Recommended to mercy by the Jury. He received a good character. Confined Nine Months.

THIRD COURT.—Thursday, April 13th, 1865.

Before Mr. Recorder.

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-444
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown; Guilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude; Imprisonment > penal servitude; Imprisonment > penal servitude; Imprisonment > penal servitude

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444. FREDERICK WILLIAM WILKINSON, (27) WILLIAM BROWN (46), WILLIAM HENRY JEFFERY (27), and THOMAS BREWERTON (27), Feloniously breaking and entering the warehouse of Francis Bennoch and another, and stealing therein 11,000 yards of silk, their property; Second Count, feloniously receiving the same. Jeffery PLEADED GUILTY to receiving twenty-eight yards of silk.

MR. PATER conducted the Prosecution; MR. SHARPE defended Wilkinson;

MR. BESLEY defended Brown, and MR. COOPER defended Brewerton.

JOHN ANDREWS . I am a warehouseman in the employment of Messrs. Bennoch, silk warehousemen, 80, Wood-street, Cheapside—on Tuesday, 8th November, at a quarter-past 6, I fastened up the premises—I locked the doors—nobody sleeps on the premises—on the morning of 9th, I returned at 10 minutes past 8, and found the lock off the door—it was broken off and thrown on the mat inside—the door was partly open—from the appearances it had been opened from the inside—seventy-six pieces of silk were missing, which were safe on the premises the evening before when I left.

Cross-examined by MR. SHARPE. Q. What day of the week was 8th November? A. A Tuesday—nobody ever sleeps on the premises.

Cross-examined by MR. BESLEY. Q. Was the door that was partly open the door leading into the main street? A. Yes—the lock I found belonged to the door—that is the only door opening on to the street—directions have been given to the police to try the doors as they pass—that is the usual course.

CATHERINE EVERSHED . I lived some time back at 1, Providence-place, Market-street, London-road, and am a widow—I remember one of the prisoners calling on me on. Lord Mayor's day last year—that was 9th November—it was the one by the name of "Carrotty Fred"—it now seems his name is Wilkinson—it might have been the beginning of the week of 9th November—he called once or twice, if not three times—he asked me if iny son was in—I said, "No"—my son's name is Thomas Edward Evershed—he said he wanted to see my son; he wanted him to do some work with the horse and cart—he said he wanted it for Mr. Bennoch—he came again,

and my son was not in then—he said he wanted him to go and do some work for him, and be mentioned Velvet Ned and Bill Barrett and Scotty, and after that he came again—the prisoners are very differently attired now to what they were—I see Velvet Ned here now; be is the one nearest to me (Brewerton)—I don't know Caseley—there is Carrotty Fred, 1; Scotty (Brown) 2; and Barrett (Jeffery,) 3—I think on the Monday or Tuesday following Lord Mayor's-day, Wilkinson came and said they had got the silk; that he went inside and packed the silk up, and the others were outside; and he said if he had not been short of money be would not have done it, for they were almost quarrelling with him—my son had a horse and cart.

Cross-examined by MR. SHARPE. Q. I want you to tell me again where it was you were living on 8th November last? A. In Providence-place, Market-street—I am quite sure about that—I was not living at 4, Salisburyplace, Walworth New-town—I have only lived there four weeks—my son never lived there—my grandson lives with me, and did on 8th November, at 1, Providence-place—I lived with my son to take care of his wife, who was dying, and she did die—I was there in November—I was there for four or five weeks—my son does not go by any other name than Evershed that I am aware of—he did not go by the name of Gront—he has been convicted of felony, and has got ten years' penal servitude—he got that at the Sessions on 6th February (Set Vol. lxi., page 111)—I don't know the date of the offence with which he was charged—I think it was in December—it was not at the time I was in hishouse that he was accused of it—I knew nothing of it—Alfred Evershed is my grandson—I remember histaking a sovereign once off the mantelpiece—I took it away from him—he had it in his pocket—I spoke to the police about this matter a week after the Sessions, which were on 6th February—I called on Mr. Potter, and I met him at the Clerkenwell Sessions-house, and he asked me where I lived, and I told him I was going to move, and I would tell him next time I saw him—I met him, I believe, the next day—he said, "Good morning" and said, "Well, I met Hurley yesterday in the Mile End-road"—I said, "I wanted to see him"—he is one of the prisoners—Mr. Potter said, "Why did not you come up for your friend as you ought to have done?" meaning my son; "he has had a bad name; he ought to have twenty yean instead of ten"—I said, "Oh, has he? If that is so, I will tell you who has done them," and I gave him the names of these prisoners—at that time there was a horse and cart in the possession of the police belonging to my son—there was also a watch and chain and one ring—I have got back all the things since—I know a person who went by the name of "Hannah"—I was never accused of receiving stolen goods from her—I dare say she is where she lived before—she lived in John-street, in the "Cut"—I was in business—we bought lead and melted it, and sold it again—there was not a burglary at that place after I left, as I know of; I am quite sure of that—my son was never accused of breaking into the place we had formerly lived at—I never sent my grandson to Wilkinson to tell him my son was taken up—he knew where Wilkinson lived; he could go on his own account without me sending him—Velvet Ned mentioned Mr. Bennoch's name when he came and asked for my son—he said he wanted a cart to go to Bennoch's in Wood-street—it was in contemplation weeks before they did it—I think it it was on the Monday or Tuesday after 9th November that he came, and said he had got the silk, and he packed it up, and he was saying how much it would realize, and how much they would sell it a yard, and the quantity of it—I don't think that was the next day or the next day but one after 8th November—I don't

think it was Lord Mayor's day, it was after that—I think it was on the Monday—I don't know the time exactly, it might be about 11 o'clock—it was before 9th November that he came and asked me to tell my son to send the horse and cart, and it was after that that he came and said he had got the silk, and the "Countryman" carted it away—there were no goods at all brought into my son's house during the four or five weeks I was there—the watch and chain and ring was what my son wore.

Cross-examined by MR. BESLEY. Q. Your grandson is about nine years of age? A. Yes; ten in July—he has been sent to two or three schools—I don't know whether it was difficult to keep him at school—his mother was ill for a long time—he has been to school since his father has been away—he can read very little now—he could not read a great deal before his father went away—this incident about the sovereign happened a little while before I left—it was lying on the mantelpiece loose—it was before his father went away, it was last year—I believe he went with his father about to public-houses—I never went to a public-house with him and his father—the prisoners are different in their style now to what they were when they came to my house—the third one is the one I know by the name of Scotty (Brown)—I saw him once when my son was in trouble walking down the street with another man—I had seen him before a great many times—I had seen him come to my son's house, and go from there to the Sportsman public-house—I have seen him once in Market-street since ray son went away—he might have had a quarrel with my son and blacked his eye—I was not 'at home then—he was constantly in the company of my son for twelve months before he was convicted—my son never brought any tea to the place—he was not convicted about some tea—I can't say that I had seen Brown and my son together exactly three months before my son was taken in December, but he came in the week he was taken—my son used to call on Scotty at Cambridge-heath, and then they used to go to a public-house near Shoreditch Church—I did not see Scotty for some time before my son was taken, but he was in the habit of coming and knocking at our door and asking for my son—I don't remember seeing him with my son at that time—it may be I did not see them together within twelve months of the time he was taken—when I had the conversation with Inspector Potter, Susan Price was not in his company—I never saw her in Potter's company.

Cross-examined by MR. COOPER. Q. When had you seen "Velvet Ned" in your son's company? A. It was the early part of November that he came to our door and asked for my son—I did not see anybody with him—it was rather late at night, between 8 and 9 o'clock—he said, "Is Tom in?" and I went and opened the door for him—he said he could not wait—I had a candle in my hand, it was quite dark—I saw him plainly and spoke to him—I can pledge my oath that is the man—a man named Barrett might have been very handy, but it was not him that spoke to me—Barrett's appearance is very different now to what it was then, because he had no whiskers then—when he came to my son to move the goods into Waterloo-road, my son said, "It is Velvet Ned"—plenty of people have called him by that name in my presence while he was there himself.

MR. SHARPE. Q. Did Wilkinson say anything about the share of each of them being 90l. a-piece? A. Yes, the conversation with Frederick and my son was that the silk would realize 90l. a-piece, and they would sell it at 3s. a yard—he said it was excellent good silk, it was what counsellors' gowns were made of, and they would sell it so much at a time—I told Frederick where he could find my son, and he could see him himself—I told my son the message he left.

MR. PATER. Q. You delivered the message that was left by Wilkinson? A. Yes—there is no pretence for saying that I have been accused of any crime—when I heard this conversation about the silk, I don't think any one was present but my son.

SUSAN JANE PRICE . I am a single woman, and live at 14, Alfred-street, Barnsbury—I know the four prisoners—I only know two of their names—I know Barrett (Jeffery) and Brown—I do not know the other two by any name—Barrett lived in the same house with Brown—I saw him first sixteen months ago—I met him in the street—he lived then at 7, Great Cambridge-street, Hackney—I also lived there with Brown—during the time Barrett and Brown lived there I saw the prisoner nearest to me (Brewerton)—he came there once or twice—the other one did not come—in November last I heard Brown say that he was going to a silk warehouse in the City—Jeffery was not present at that time—they had a conversation about a woman named Collier, who was taken for the silk—I don't remember hearing Jeffery say anything about the intended robbery before 9th November—on 8th November, Brown and Jeffery went out between 5 and 6 in the evening, and returned between 2 and 3 on the morning of the 9th—they did not return together; Brown came back first—I don't know what time Jeffery came home—they both left together on the morning of the 9th—the conversation about going to the silk warehouse was between 2 and 3 in the afternoon of 8th November—Brown left Cambridge-street about a week or ten days after 9th November—he gave a reason for leaving; it was on account of Mrs. Collier being taken for the silk—he told me to take the things away, as he was afraid the house might be searched for the silk—I saw a piece of black silk in a box belonging to Jeffery—it was similar to this piece (produced)—after the silk robbery Brown was in possession of money—on 11th November I went with him to a savings' bank in Finsbury, and he placed 30l. there—at that time he went by the name of Price—that 30l. was paid before the removal from Cambridge-street.

Cross-examined by MR. BESLEY. Q. When was it that you first communicated with the police in any of these cases? A. I never communicated with any police until Mr. Potter came to me to take me for the bag that I left at MR. Coombe's—the bag contained some of Mr. Johnson's property—I knew that the bag contained part of the produce of Mr. Johnson's burglary, which was committed in July—after it was committed Brown had money—he put some of that in a bank—I have not seen a good deal of Mrs. Meyers since I have been in communication with the police—I have only seen her here and at the Mansion House—Brown went to Scotland in December—I lived at Mrs. Meyers's in December—Brown sent up some salmon from the north—I gave Mrs. Meyers some of it—I don't know that she gave Banger some of it—I never saw him before I was taken—I have been living with Brown two years next month—I did not meet him one night, and go and treat him to wine—I was living with my sister before I lived with him—I met him in Goswell-road; no one was with me—we went to different places—I had not lived in Vinegar-ground before that—I did not go with him there—I did not live with him till a week after I met him—I have left him twice—I don't know a man called Wade—it is false that Brown found the door of his room locked at 1 in the morning, and a man in the room with me; that never occurred with any man at all—I don't know of Brown going to Scotland in July—I did not go after him; not in July; I was ill—I went in December—he sent me back again—I said when I was in attendance at the Mansion House, before I was called, that I had no ill feeling against any of

the men except Brown—I have not been walking about the streets with Inspector Potter—I have only been in his company once, when he came to take me for the bag—it is false that I was in a public-house with Brown when Ranger and Potter and a witness, called Bayliss, came in—they did not come in—Brown accuses me of it, but they were not there—he accused me of giving information—that was on the Friday as he was apprehended on the Wednesday—I was in the Haberdashers' Arms, at the corner of Pimlico wharf, on that Friday with a friend—policemen did not come in—I did not notice anyone come in and look round—Brown charged me there with having put myself in communication with the police—he had not the slightest acquaintance with Mrs. Collier that I know of—I know Evershed, the father of the little boy who is a witness—I don't know of a quarrel between Brown and him, or of Brown blacking his eye—I always thought it was Barrett that blacked his eye—I knew of his being taken into custody on a charge of receiving—I had not seen him for more than twelve months before that, nor had Brown—Brown was not friends with him—I had not left parcels at MR. Coombes' before this bag—the only parcel I left there was washing—since this case I have been maintained by money from Mr. Palmer; he is a publican in the Old-street-road—there was a charge made against me in December of taking nearly 195l.—I stayed at my residence after that—Brown left me there to go to Scotland, and after some time I left and joined him again.

Jeffery. Q. What time did Brown and me leave on the evening of the 8th? A. You did not come home till 12—I don't think you came home all day on the 8th—you left between 4 and 5 in the evening—I would not swear you were not at home all night—I believe you were at home on the night of the 8th.

COURT. Q. You believe he was at home the whole of the night on the 8th? A. He came in with Brown, I suppose; I don't know; I was in bed—the last time I saw him was between 5 and 6 in the evening—I could not say he was out all night—I went to bed that night about 12—he had not come home at that time.

Jeffery. Q. Do you know whether I Was out then? A. I don't know—you had not come home before 12; I know that from your wife.

COURT. Q. You say there was some charge against you about taking 195l.? Yes; in notes—I was never tried for it—it was only a few words between them in the house—they lost the notes, and I was charged with stealing them; nothing further.

ALFRED EVERSHED . I live with my grandmother, at 4, Salisbury-place, Walworth—I know the four prisoners—the first is Wilkinson; his nickname is "Carrotty Fred;" the next one is Brown; his other name is "Scotty;" the next one is Barrett, and the next Brewerton—I know him by the name of "Velvet Ned"—I remember Lord Mayor's day last year, 9th November—I saw the four prisoners on that day between 8 and 9 in the morning, in company, against King William's statue—I had often seen them in company with my father at the Sportsman public-house, in the Southwark Bridge-road.

Cross-examined by MR. SHARPE. Q. Were you living at Salisbury-place on 8th November? A. No; at the back of the Sportsman, in Market-street—my mother was not dead then—I am living with my grandmother now, at Salisbury-place, Walworth New-town—I was going to see the Lord Mayors show on this 9th November—the prisoners were going towards the City; towards the Whitechapel-road—it was near the foot of London-bridge I met

them—they were going away from the bridge—there was a great crowd there—they passed me in a moment—I have been examined before—I did set know the name of Wilkinson then; I was told; I only knew him as "Carrotty Fred" before that—I hate spoken to my grandmother about the evidence I was to give in the Court; she told me what I was to say, and I repeat what she told me.

Cross-examined by MR. BESLEY. Q. Did you not see the men going over the bridge? A. Yes—I saw them first about the middle of London-bridge, and then I saw them at the end—I met them when they were on the bridge—I had been to school before Lord Mayor's day—I don't know how many schools I have been to; a good many—I did not like them—when my father was with us, I went with him to the Sportsman—I have seen Brown there with my father—I saw him with my father before the silk robbery was done; before Lord Mayor's day; about two months before—he was talking to my father, and friendly with him—I saw him during the two days before Lord Major's day, over the water, in my father's company—that was between the time I saw him at the Sportsman and Lord Mayor's day—I took a sovereign Once; it was a long while ago now—my father was very angry—when I was away from school I played truant—I got up at 8 on Lord Mayor's day to get there first—I usually get up about 9—it was soon alter my father went away that I saw the police—they did not say anything to me about Lord Mayor's day—I first said something about it at the Mansion House when the men were in custody—I have seen Brown about a dozen times altogether—he came one night during the five weeks my grandmother was with us, when my mother was ill.

MR. PATER. Q. You say you spoke to your grandmother about what you had seen? A. Yes, and she told me to say that I did see the men—that was after I told her I had seen them.

JURY. Q. You told your grandmother first? A. Yes, and she told me to tell the truth.

RICHARD BENNET . I am a salesman in the silk department at Messrs. Bennoch's—these pieces of silk produced are our property—I saw it safe on 8th November in the warehouse, and missed it the next day—the value of the two pieces produced is about 30l.—I have not the slightest doubt about the identity of the silk.

Jeffery. Q. What is the value of that silk per yard? A. 3s. a yard—I don't know how much there is here; I have not measured it—there are two pieces; if they are the length that pieces usually are, 30l. would be the value of them.

JAMES BRANNAN (Police-inspector, F.) On 4th March, about 9 in the evening, I went with Potter, Moss, and Ranger to 10, Tabernacle-walk—I saw Wilkinson there, sitting on a chair, near the fire—I did not take him on this charge—I produce a Savings' Bank book; it bears the name of Price—it was given to me by Mr. Palmer, the landlord of the Pitt's Head public-house, Old-street, St. Luke's—I know Wilkinson by the name of Erskine—this other book (produced) was not found by me.

GEORGE ALBERT PALMER . I am a publican at 1, Old-street, St. Luke's—this is the book I gave to Brannan—I got it from a person I know by the name of Price—I see him here; he is the second prisoner (Brown)—it purports to be a Savings' Bank book—at the time he gave me this book he gave me 50l. in money—that was about the beginning of December., 1864—I never had any conversation with him as to where the money had been obtained—I put it in my cash-box with my money, and as he did not come

for it I paid it away with my monwy into my banker's—I gave the book, and the same amount of money, to Brannan.

Cross-examined by MR. BESLEY. Q. Did you know that Brown was living with Susan Price? A. No—I did not know that—no letters were ever addressed to me for him in the name of Price—I never heard his name at all till he came to me.

JOHN MOSS (Detective-officer.) I accompanied Inspector Potter to the house occupied by Jeffery—I was present when this silk produced was found—it was in a box in the back-room, on the first-floor, of 13, Ely terrace, Mile End-road—this banking book was found in a drawer, in my presence, on the first or second floor of 10, Tabernacle-walk, in the room occupied by Wilkinson—it has the name of Mr. F. H. Erskine upon it—I do not know Wilkinson by that name.

Cross-examined by MR. BESLEY. Q. How often would the police in the course of their duty pass Mr. Bennoch's warehouse? A. I should think about every ten minutes; there would only be half the complement on the 8th of November; they would pass about once in twenty minutes then—I don't know whether Sergeants Musk and Waldron visited the men on their beat that night—they are the sergeants, 12 and 53; it would be their duty to visit the men on their beat that night.

Cross-examined by MR. SHARPE. Q. How many persons have you reason to think were concerned in this particular burglary, have you not endeavoured to find six? A. I believe there was one on the premises all night—we have had, I believe, more than six persons in custody; we have had seven, but not on this particular case—we were not in search of any particularly in this case; this is an after case, from inquiries we have made and from what we have found out.

GEORGE RANGER (Policeman, G 199.) I was present with Potter, Moss, and Brannan, on 4th March, when Wilkinson was apprehended—I found a screw-driver and two chisels at his house—there is nothing peculiar about them; they are ordinary carpenter's tools—I found no other carpenter's tools there—I examined Messrs. Bennoch's premises; this screw-driver fitted the mark that was under the lock, and it would unscrew the screws—the door was opened from the inside—Wilkinson made no statement.

Cross-examined by MR. SHARPE. Q. Did you ever say a single syllable about a mart before? A. I did at the Mansion-house—I tried the tool in the presence of Mr. Bennoch—I said at the Mansion-house that there were marks corresponding with this tool, and also fitting the screws—it is an ordinary tool—it is not peculiar to housebreakers—this is very common size—the mark was underneath the lock—this was used to praise the lock up—the marks on the back of the lock exactly correspond with the end of this chisel, to a hair's breadth—the look was fastened on the door with screws—there was not a plate of iron extending below the lock.

Cross-examined by MR. BESSELY. Q. Are you speaking of the lock that was found on the mat? A. No; the lock on the door, inside the premises—I did not notice the lock that was found on the mat—I was not there the next morning—I believe a persom was concealed there before the premises were locked up—I did not get a present from Mrs. Meyer's of some salmon—I did not tell Brannan I had some salmon, and it was very nice—I told him I sa some.

MR. SHARPE. Q. Do you know how many persons you have been after for this burglary of Mr. Bennoch's? A. I have been after all of them since

Christmas—I have been after Carrotty Fred, Brewerton, Jeffery, and Scotty, and two others, I think, for this robbery.

WILLIAM HAMILTON (Police-inspector.) I examined Messrs. Bennoch's premises on the morning of 9th November—I found that the lock on the outer door, leading from the street, had been removed—the lock had been fastened on the inside with screws, and there was a plate, with Screws, which could not be got at with a screw-driver, fitted between the door and the jamb—the place was opened from the inside.

Cross-examined by MR. BESLEY. Q. Was there any other fastening on that door, but the lock? A. None whatever.

THOMAS AMBROSE POTTER (Police-inspector, G.) On 24th February, I went to 13, Ely-terrace, Friendly-place, Bow, accompanied by Sergeant Moss and other constables—Jeffery lived there at that time—I found in a box, in his room, the silk produced—this deposit-book I found in Wilkinson's room, at his house—it is a banker's book—50l. is represented to have been paid into the bank—the name of Erskine is outside it—I knew Wilkinson by that name, as living in Friar-street, Blackfriars—14th November, 1864, is the date of the deposit—I was present in the Old Court, here, when a man named Grout was convicted of receiving silk—I apprehended him—I had seen Brown and Jeffery in his company—Wilkinson wan apprehended on 24th February—I had been looking for him previous to that—when I went to Friar-street, where he formerly lived. I found he had suddenly removed—I had been looking for Jeffery and Brown.

Cross-examined by MR. SHARPE. Q. Did you ever see Wilkinson in the company of Grout? A. No; I had seen-him in company with the others—this is a pass-book of the London and County Banking Company—I have not been there—I don't know whether there is anybody from that bank here.

Cross-examined by MR. BESLEY. Q. You do duty in the Metropolitan Police-force? A. Yes; sometimes I am on duty in the City when my business calls me there—I had known Grout eleven or twelve years, as a receiver of stolen property—I had watched him on many occasions, and knew where he lived—I think he was convicted in December—he was in custody in November—I saw Brown and Jeffery in his company about two months before he was in custody; that was the first and last time, I saw Brown and Grout together, but I knew all parties.

MR. PATER. Q. Have you seen the prisoners in company together? A. yes; not all at one time—I saw Brown and Wilkinson in company together in the Hackney-road, about a week after I had seen Jeffery and Brown together—I saw them both near the same place in the Hackney-road—I was trying to find their addresses then.

The COURT considered that no case was made out against



WILKINSON and BROWN were further charged with having been before convicted of felony, Wilkinson at this Court on 15th September, 1856, in the name of Henry Hillyer, and Brown at Clerkenwell, on 20th January, 1862, in the name of Robert Elliott, to which



EDWARD ROGER CUTLER . I am a clerk in the Westminster Fire Office, King-street, Covent-garden—I produce a certificate; it refers to a man named Hillyer, otherwise Anderson, convicted at this Court in September, 1856, for receiving a 10l. bank note, and sentenced to six years' penal servitude—I believe that to refer to Wilkinson—I was present at the trial—I recognised him at the Sessions—I was a witness in the case on

which he was convicted—I have no doubt about him—I saw him and recognised him in Newgate—I believe him to be the man—I have never seen him since till now.

The Jury thought there might be a mistake in his identity, and found a verdict of NOT GUILTY of the previous conviction.

BROWN and JEFFERY.**— Twenty Years' Penal Servitude each.

CASELEY and BREWERTON.**— Fourteen Years' Penal Servitude each.

WILKINSON and HURLEY.*— Ten Years Penal Servitude each.

ROBERTS.— Seven Years' Penal Servitude.

There was another indictment against Brown for burglary.

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-445
VerdictGuilty > unknown

Related Material

445. SAMUEL CONNORS (29), was indicted for wilful and corrupt perjury, at this Court, on the trial of Frederick Cox and Joseph William Bolt.

MESSES. SLEIGH and LEWIS conducted the Prosecution, and MR. PATER the Defence.

GUILTY .— Confined Nine Months.

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-446
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment; Imprisonment

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446. WILLIAM NICHOLLS (26), and GEORGE POWELL (33) , PLEADED GUILTY to stealing 4 shawls and 540 yards of silk, value 90l., the property of Charles Candy.—NICHOLLS— Confined Eighteen Months.—POWELL— Confined Nine Months, and

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-447
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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447. CORNELIUS DONOVAN (19) , to a robbery with violence, on William Carter, and stealing from him a bag, his property.

Confined Eighteen Months. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

FOURTH COURT.—Thursday, April 13th, 1865.

Before Mr. Common Serjeant.,

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-448
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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448. WILLIAM PHILLIPS (23) , Burglary in the dwelling-house of William Peter Bodkin, Esq., and stealing therein a cash-box, 6l. in gold, three coats and other articles, his property.

MR. POLAND conducted the Prosecution, and MR. TAYLOR the Defence.

WILLIAM PETER BODKIN , Esq. I live in Millfield-lane, Highgate—on the night of the 14th of January I examined my house before going to bed—it was about half-past twelve—the house was secured in the regular way—the windows were fastened, all the doors were looked and bolted on the inside—about half past three in the morning I heard ray front-door bell ring and heard cries of "Police"—I hastened up and called my sons and we went down to give assistance—I found that the dressing-room had been entered by the window, the dining-room ransacked and a quantity of things removed—a cash-box had been broken open and 6l. 10s. in gold and 2l. or 3l. in silver taken from it—a clock had been removed from the mantel-piece—I went into the garden and saw two constables with two men named Grant and Northgate in custody.

Cross-examined. Q. Did the two men who were apprehended plead guilty to this offence? A. Yes.

ROBERT ROFFEY (Police-sergeant, S 11). On the morning of 15th January I was on duty at West-hill, Highgate with constable Clark—we were walking through the garden of Mr. Bodkin—we found the windows on the ground-floor open—I sent Clark round to the front-door to ring the bell, and I stationed myself in front of one of the open windows—when the bell rang I heard some voices inside, say, "Go on, George, we will smash the b—s" and directly Northgate came through the window armed with a fire-shovel—he struck at me—directly after Grant came out with the tongs,

he made a strike at me also—Northgate knocked me down with the fireshovel—while I was lying on the ground the prisoner came out of the window and he said, "Give it to the b——"and ran away—Clark and I secured Grant and Northgate after a desperate struggle—I did not see the prisoner again until the 2nd of March—I had not known him before the 15th of January—on 2nd of March I went to Highgate police-station—there were seven or eight people there and amongst them some constables in plain clothes—I knew the constables, but there were four others whom I did not know and the prisoner was the fifth—I pointed him out as one concerned in the burglary—he said, "I am sure you do not know men—I said I did—I knew, him more by his voice than anything else—on the night of the burglary I noticed that he had a short coat on and a high hat—he was dressed differently to what he is now.

Cross-examined. Q. You say, "I recognised him more then by his voice than anything." A. Yes—I had not seen the prisoner before the night of the burglary—I next saw him at the police-station—I was then sent for by Inspector Bryant—I was present when the other two men were examined before the magistrates—I have not stated that the third man was bitten by a dog—I am not aware that there was a dog there—when the first man tune out of the window I was standing about a yard from it—I was knocked down by Northgate, and while on the ground the third man came out of the window—it was a moonlight night and the wind was blowing very hard—the fence over which I saw the third man get was about 100 yards off—we caught the other two men at that fence—when Clark came round I said, "Here they go," and we went after them.

MR. POLAND. Q. Had you recognised the prisoner at the station before you heard his voice? A. Yes—I speak to him as the man, not from the voice only but from the features and voice.

DAVID CLARK (Police-Sergeant, S 2). On the morning of 15th January I was going with the last witness through Mr. Bodkin's premises—I went round to ring the bell—I heard the last witness cry for help—I went round and saw him getting up off the ground—he told me there were three men gone down the garden—I pursued them—I saw Sergeant Roffey apprehend Northgate—the prisoner was the centre man of the three—I apprehended Grant and had a severe struggle with him—I was about two yards from the prisoner when he got over the fence—I saw his face distinctly—I am confident he is the man—I saw him again on the morning of the 6th of March—I picked him out from a number of men at the police-station—there were about sixteen or eighteen men—I examined the fence the prisoner got over—there is some wire-work on the top of the fence and on the wire-work I found some pieces of a magenta scarf—I collected some of it (produced)—I have seen the comforter the prisoner had and have compared the pieces, it corresponds exactly—the prisoner had, to get over four fences to get into the road—I traced footsteps in a direct line.

Cross-examined. Q. What fence was this fibre found on? A. On the fence between the kitchen-garden and Millfield-lane—it is the fourth fence—I did not see the prisoner going up Highgate-hill on the 2nd of March, in a cab—I was on night duty on 2nd of March and was in bed during the day-time—I did not go up Highgate-hill until half-past nine at night—the prisoner was the second man of the three—I did not show the wall to Inspector Bryant until the 6th of March—he is not my inspector, be is in the "G" division—Mr. Fidge is my inspector.

MR. TAYLOR to ROBERT ROFFEY. Q. Amongst the men from which you

picked out the prisoner, were there three constables in plain clothes? A. Yes they—were not intimate friends of mine—they were men from another division—the other four men I did not know—I do not know now who they were.

WILLIAM YOUNG .—I am a gardener in the employ of Captain Berkley—his premises adjoin Mr. Bodkin's—on 14th January the wire fence in the kitchen-garden was perfect—on the morning of the 15th I found that a part of it had been broken down—I saw footsteps from the direction of Mr. Bodkin's house to the fence of Millfield-lane—I examined the fence and found some woollen thread upon it of a dark green or magenta colour—I think it corresponds with the colour of this scarf (produced)—I think this is a dark green—I collected some of it but did not save it.

BENJAMIN BRYANT (Police-Inspector, G.) On the morning of 2nd March, between seven and eight o'clock I went to No. 9, Collingwood-street, Cambridge-heath-road—I found the prisoner in bed in a back-room on the firstfloor—I was in plain clothes—I said to him, "Well, Wilson," the name I knew him by, "you are wanted for being concerned with two others who are now doing penal servitude for a burglary at Judge Bodkin's, get up and put your clothes on;" he said, "Very well"—after he was dressed I looked about the room and found this (produced) coat behind the door—he put on the coat which he is wearing now—I examined the coat and saw two holes in it—I said, "You have got two holes behind this, I suppose that was done in getting away"—I showed them to him and he made no reply—afterwards he said, "I have worn that coat, but not lately"—I took him to the Old-street station—when at the station he said, "I know who has done this for me, it is the soldier's old woman"—I said, "Who is the soldier's old woman," he said, "You know, the woman of one of the men that has gone away"—I knew Grant and Northgate—I believe one of them was called "Soldier"—in company with Mr. Fidge I compared the holes in this coat with the spikes on the fence—the two holes fitted on the top of the hooks—they were the same distance apart and are just such holes as would be made by those hooks—when at the station I asked the prisoner to take off his coat and waistcoat and on his arm I found two scars which corresponded with the holes in the coat—the prisoner had not a scarf on when I took him into custody—I first saw the scarf at Highgate-station on the 13th of March—I went to the prisoner and asked him to let me see the scarf—he said, "What do you want with it," and handed it to me—I told him I would take care of it—he said his sister had brought it to him in the House of Detention—I said, "It was rather cold when you came up from the House of Detention this morning, why did you not put it on"—he said, "I thought it was rather too much for you to see"—he afterwards said he could prove it was bought somewhere in Shoreditch, since he bad been in custody—he said either since he had been in custody or since the burglary, I would not be sure which—it is torn in some places.

Cross-examined. Q. Did you ever say before about the prisoner saying; "I thought it was rather too much for you to see"? A. Yes, I mentioned it at Highgate—it was not put down in the deposition—I had seen this man before I took him into custody—I cannot say that I knew him perfectly well—I cannot say that I knew he lived in Collingwood-street for three months past—I have made it my business to know him since the burglary—I had a slight knowledge of him before—I knew the other two men who were with him—one of the holes is rather larger than it was when I found it—I think that must have been done in the Grand Jury-room—I took the

prisoner up to Highgate in a cab—I spoke to a constable on the hill to ask the way to the station, as I had never been there before—I did not ask him whether the prisoner was the man—I went into a public-house to give the cabman a glass of ale—I had another constable with roe whom I left in charge of the cab.

WILLIAM FIDGE (Police-inspector, S.) On the morning of 15th January, I examined the premises where the burglary was committed—I also, with Inspector Bryant, compared the holes in the coat with the spikes—those holes are about the same distaut apart as the spikes—I noticed some "fluff" on the fence—I did not take any away.

Cross-examined. Q. Was anything said about the man who got away being bitten by a dog? A. No—I know nothing of the prisoner.

MR. POLAND to MR. BODKIN. Q. Was there a dog loose on the premises? A. Not that I am aware of.

Prisoner. I am as innocent of this as any gentleman in this room.

GUILTY .*— Seven Years' Penal Servitude.

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-449
VerdictGuilty > pleaded part guilty

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449. CHARLES WRENN (38) , Embezzling various sums of money, the property of Moss Levy and others; also, forging the acceptance to a bill of exchange for 262. 8s. 3d.

He PLEADED GUILTY to the embezzlement— Confined Twelve Months.

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-450
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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450. JOHANN SCHNEIDER (36), and ADAM SCHMIDT (25) , Burglary in the dwelling-house of William Payne, and stealing a pair of boots and other articles.

MR. WARTON conducted the Prosecution.

ELIZABETH PAYNE . I am the wife of William Payne, of the White Hart, Vine-court, Spitalfields—on the night of the 19th and 20th of March, I went to bed about 1 o'clock—the house was fastened and secured before going to bed—the door leading into the bar-parlour and all the windows were fastened—we were called up about 4 o'clock by the police—I went to the barparlour, and found a little back window had been taken out, and two iron bars broken right out—the bar-parlour door was burst open—the drawers and cupboard had all been ransacked, and several things had been taken—I afterwards saw those things at the station on the same morning.

ADAM LANGLEY (Police-constable, H 93). I was on duty with constable, H 67, in Brick-lane, Whitechapel, on the night of 19th March—about half-past 3 on the morning of the 20th, I saw the prisoners each carrying a bundle—they were on the opposite side—we crossed over, and the other constable put his hand on the bundle that Schmidt was carrying—he let the bundle fall, and ran away—I took Schneider into custody—on the same morning, about 8 o'clock, we went to 15, Buckle-street, Whitechapel, and found Schmidt in bed—we found a tea-caddy, and from an inscription on it, we went to prosecutrix's house—she came to the station, and identified the property—we found a candlestick, and a right boot at Schmidt's house—the other candlestick, and the other boot were found on Schneider.

Schneider (through an Interpreter.) If he found them on me, he did not see me steal them—there were no tools found on me.

Schmidt. I was tipsy.

GUILTY .— Confined Nine Months each.

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-451
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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451. GILBERT HART (35) , Feloniously forging and uttering an order for the payment of 1l. with intent to defraud.

MR. LILLEY conducted the Prosecution, and MR. SLEIGH the Defence.

CHARLES UNGERER . I am a Chemist, living in Commercial-street, Whitechapel—I know the prisoner—in August last I employed him to collect money for me, and also to summon a man named Elsniger in the county-court—a short time after he wrote to me this letter (produced)—I believe that to be in his handwriting.

MR. SLEIGH. Q. Have you ever seen him write? A. Yes; I could not say how often, nor whether I have more than once—I never paid any attention when he was writing—I think I have seen him write, but I am not sure I did—I swear positively that I believe this letter to be in his handwriting—that is all I can say.

MR. LILLET. Q. How many times have you received letters from him? A. I have received several—I do not know whether I replied to this letter—I saw him in consequence of it—I could not state the conversation that took place—I received this other letter, dated the 15th August (produced)—I believe it to be in the same handwriting as the other—I knew that the prisoner lived in Gerrard-street—I did not reply to this letter—I saw him at my house afterwards—I believe it was about a month after the 15th of August—I do not know whether I saw him once or twice—he came to my house, and wanted, his commission for the money he had collected—the commission was 5 per cent.—I said, "As soon as I have the money, you shall have your percentage"—after that he called me a dirty scoundrel—he did not say anything about an authority at that time—I recollect receiving this letter, and seeing him at my house—he wanted me to give him an authority—I do not remember the words he used—I did not give him any authority—I made application at the county-court, and in consequence of information I received, I went to my solicitor, Mr. Onslow, and also to a Magistrate—I then gave information at the Vine-street Police-station—that would be about the 25th or 26th of November—I had not seen the prisoner from the day he asked me for an authority—he had not paid me 1l. on account of Elsinger—he had not paid me any money at all—I did not see him again until about the 18th or 19th of March when I gave him into custody—he afterwards offered to give me 1l. and then he offered me 1l. 10s.; then he offered me 1l. and all the expenses, and to apologize for insulting me in my shop—I do not recollect the highest amount he offered me—this order (produced) is not in my handwriting—I did not authorize it to be written by the prisoner, or anyone else—I believe it to be in his writing.

Cross-examined. Q. Do you pledge yourself on your oath that this order is written by the prisoner? A. I believe it is; I believe the signature, "Charles lingerer," is in his writing—I see there is some difference between the writing in the letters and the order—I am not quite so certain since I have looked at the letters that it is his writing—I cannot swear that this is hishandwriting, because I did not see him write it, but I swear I believe it to be his, although I am not so certain as I was before—the prisoner had an office at 27, Gerrard-street, Soho, for collecting and recovering debts and rents—he was the manager of the office—before I entrusted any matters to him, I was shown a piece of paper like this (produced) prospectus of terms—I read it—the collection of any debts was to be on those terms—I entrusted two debts to the prisoner to collect—one was before this matter—he summoned the person in the county court, but did not receive the debt—it was 2l. for a watch—I had to pay 8s. and the summons and costs of the county court—the amount of the second debt was 3l. 16s.

HENRY STUART BELL . I am clerk in the Westminster County Court—I produce the authority presented on 19th of October—I do not recollect the person who presented it—I paid the person 1l.—it was in the case of Ungerer against Elsinger—the person to whom I paid the money, signed a receipt in this book (produced)—the name is, "G. Hart"—I paid the money to him in consequence of this order—it is a rule in the Court not to pay except to plaintiffs themselves, or to their written order.

MR. UNGERER (re-examined.) I believe this signature to be in the handwriting of the prisoner.

MR. SLEIGH. Q. Does not the prisoner demand of you a greater amount on account of a society than the twenty shillings? Q. No, he has not made any demand of me for further subscriptions at any time—he did not claim 4l. 19s. when he was given into custody, nor any sum—he asked me if I did not owe him money—he did not mention the sum.

JOHN CAIN (Policeman, C 79). The prisoner was given into my custody on 28th March, 1865, by Mr. Ungerer—on the way to the station he said be would give Mr. Ungerer 2l. if he would go to Mr. Lawrence's, in Vigo-street, Piccadilly—he refused, and there were some words as to the cost of summons, which I did not take any particular notice of.

Cross-examined. Q. Was the discussion about money which was alleged to be due to him by Mr. Ungerer? A. I do not know, I did not hear that, it was something about a summons—I did not understand all the conversation between them—I heard enough to enable me to form an opinion that there was a disagreement between them.


10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-452
VerdictsGuilty > pleaded guilty; Guilty > unknown
SentencesImprisonment > penal servitude; Imprisonment

Related Material

452. FREDERICK BETTS (27) , Stealing 18 pairs of leather bootvamps, the property of James William Hickson and others, his masters; and EDMUND PRETTY (31) , Feloniously receiving the same.


MR. BESLEY conducted the Prosecution, and MR. COLLINS the Defence.

EDWARD CHESHIRE (City-policeman, 452). From instructions I received from Messrs. Hickson I watched their premises on 10th February—about 7 o'clock in the evening I saw Betts leave—he came out with two other men—they walked a little way and then separated—I followed Betts to Finsbury-square where he met Pretty—I then followed them to the Duke of Northumberland public-house, in Worship-street, where they remained about a quarter-of an hour—they came out together and went to Shoreditch, where they got into a cab and drove to the Greyhound public-house, Old Ford-road—Betts went into a house in Saunders-terrace, where he lives—he remained there about five minutes—he brought out a large parcel—he had no parcel when he went in—he took it to the public-house where Pretty was—they remained about five minutes, and then got into the cab, and were driven hack to Shoreditch—they separated at the top of Church-street—when they were in the public-house in Worship-street, I went in and saw Betts and Pretty sitting in the tap-room—I stood at the bar close by, and saw Pretty give Betts 3l.—I watched Betts again on the 23rd February—I was in company with police-constable Gater—I saw Betts leave the warehouse; his two side-pockets appeared very bulky—he went up Holborn, and turned down Southampton-row into Theobald's-road, where the prisoner Pretty met him—they went into the Red Lion public-house, in Crown-street—Pretty did not appear to have anything with him—they remained in the public-house about a quarter of an hour—they came out together—Betts's pockets were then flat to his side, and Pretty's were full—they only went a few steps

together, and then parted, Pretty directing Betts eastward, and going himself westward—we followed Pretty into Boswell-court, where Gater spoke to him—Gater produces the goods found on him.

Cross-examined. Q. You know that Pretty kept a shoe-shop, did you not? A. I did, at No. 1, Nassau-street, near the Middlesex-hospital—I do not know that Betts kept a shop; I knew him as a clicker at Messrs. Hickson's—I do not know what Pretty paid Betts the 3l. for at the Duke of Northumberland—I did not see him pass a 5l. note for Pretty to change; I should have seen it if he had passed it.

CHARLES THOMAS GATER (City-policeman, 95). I was in Company with Cheshire on 10th February—I saw Betts leave the premises of Messis. Hicksou, and again on 22nd February—I stopped Pretty in Bocwell-court; I asked him what he had got in his pockets—he said, "Some leather, "and then pulled out some of these pieces of leather (produced)—I asked him where he had purchased them, and he said he had bought them of a man, but he refused to tell me his name, then afterwards he said he cut them oat himself, that he kept a little shop close by, and be would take us there if we would go—I told him that did not satisfy me, and I took him into custody—on the way to the station I asked, "Who was the man you were with in the public-house?"—he said he did not know who I meant; he did not know whether he had been in any public-house—afterwards he said he had been in one, which was the European, in the City, about 1 o'clock—when at the station 18 pairs of vamps were taken from him—I asked him how he accounted for the possession of them—he said he had bought them of a man who travelled, and had paid ready money for them—I think he said this after I had asked him whether he had got an invoice for them—I afterwards went to his shop, and found 10 more pairs of vamps, and borne pieces of skin—I produce what was found in the shop—I got this piece of leather (produced) from Messrs. Hicksons', and it corresponds with the 18 pairs of vamps.

Cross-examined. Q. Did you not know that Betts kept a shop some years ago? A. I never heard it before I heard you ask the question to-day.

FREDERICK BETTS . I have pleaded guilty to this indictment—on the evening of 10th February I went into a public-house with Pretty—I received some money of him; I cannot say how much it was—it was due to me for goods I had delivered to him—we afterwards went to the Old Ford-road—I lived at No. 3, Saunders'-place—I went there and brought a parcel out—it con-tained elastic only—on the evening of 23rd February, when I left the ware-house, I had in my pockets 18 pairs of Vamps, which I passed to Pretty—I have had other transactions with him, but I cannot say how many; I may have had seven, or eight, or nine—the first transaction was about six or seven months ago—I cannot remember what it was—all the transactions were similar to this—the money paid in Worship-street was for those transactions—I had 9s. for the 18 pairs of vamps, that is 6d. a pair—I cannot say how many pairs of vamps I have sold him during the last six months, nor how much money I have received from him altogether during that time—he never came on to Messrs. Hicksons' premises to see me, but lie knew in what capacity I was serving Messrs. Hickson—I was a clicker, and had 26s. a week.

Cross-examined. Q. Did you not tell Pretty that you were a shoemaker in business for yourself some time back? A. Never in my life—I did not tell him I had this leather to dispose of—I have only seen my solicitor in gaol—he did not tell me that the best plan would be for me to give evidence against

Pretty—he said it would be better for me to plead guilty; I cannot say whether it will be better or not.

JAMES WILLIAM HICKSON . I am in partnership with other persons, and carry on business in West Smithfield—the value of these vamps is 1s. per pair.

Cross-examined. Q. What do they cost you? A. They cost me about 1s. per pair.

PRETTY received a good character.— GUILTY .— Seven Years' Penal Servitude. BETTS was recommended to mercy by Messrs. Hickson, as they believed he had been made the dupe of Pretty.— Confined Six Months.

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-453
VerdictsNot Guilty > unknown; Guilty > pleaded guilty
SentencesMiscellaneous > sureties

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453. FIDELE KATZENSTEIN (45), and JANE HARRIGAN (39) , Robbery with violence on Marian Wallis, and stealing from her part of a watch-chain and other articles, value 5l. her property.

MR. BESLEY conducted the Prosecution.

MARIAN WALLIS . I am an unmarried woman—I have been getting my living by seeing gentlemen, though not recently—before last Christmas I went to lodge at Katzenstein's—I lodged there about six or seven weeks—about a week after Christmas I left his place, and went to live in Greek-street, Soho—I did not tell him I was going—Greek-street is the next street—I continued in the neighbourhood, but I never walked the streets there—MR. Katzenstein keeps a restaurant—I occupied a furnished room of his—I bad seen the female prisoner before the 7th March, but I had never spoken to her—I knew she was servant to Katzentstein—on 7th March she came to where I was living in Greek-street; she asked me to come out and go to the corner with her—I refused—about 4 o'clock on 8th March I was at the corner of the street when the female prisoner came behind me, canght me by the throat, tore my watch-chain away from me, tore my bonnetstrings off, and pulled the buttons off my dress—she said a word or two, but I do not know what—she gave me no time to answer—there was a locket and key on the gold-chain—I think the value of the property I lost was about 5l.—she immediately ran away, about a dozen housesdown—I saw Mr. Katzenstein standing that distance off—I called out, and a butcher stopped her before she got to Katzenstein—he detained her, and then he let her go—she ran in between several persons, and put the chain in Katzenstein's hands; I saw her put it there—I then went to the Police-court—I appeared before the Magistrate the next morning, and the prisoners were then in custody.

Cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH (for Katzenstein). Q. You left Mr. Katzen-stein's without telling him you were going to leave, and you left in the night did you not? A. No, I left in the afternoon—I left because he was continually annoying me—I told him I was going that week; I did not tell him I was going that day—I did not ask him for my account, and pay the money—I did not call upon Mr. Katzenstein after I left—I did not owe him anything—I did not break one of the mirrors in his house—I was not charged with having done so—the mantelpiece was broken, and the heat of the light cracked one of the mirrors—I was walking along Greek-street when the female prisoner caught me by the throat—I did not know she was behind me until I felt myself seized, and then I saw her—Mr. Poirier, the butcher, was standing at his shop, which was about half a dozen or a dozen doors off—there were several other people standing close by—I cannot say how many people there were, but there were not a great many—it was snowing at the time—I swear that Mr. Katzenstein was there, and that he took the chain from the female prisoner—he was close to Mr. Poirier—he

did not say to me, "My girl, you have made a terrible mistake, Mr. KatzenBteiu was not there."

Cross-examined by MR. WARNER SLEIGH (for Harrigan.) Q. You say that the prisoner Harrigan rushed in amongst a lot of people? A. Several people—Katzenstein was standing on the other side of the crowd—the crowd was between me and Harrigan, but I saw her pass the chain to Katzeustein.

LOUIS POIRIER . I am a butcher, and carry on business at 33, Greek-street, Soho—on the afternoon of 8th March my attention was roused by a cry of "Stop thief!"—I went out of my shop, and saw the female prisoner running—she had part of a chain in her hand—I stopped her—the prosecutrix came up, and said, "She has robbed me"—the female prisoner said, "It was not a robbery; she owes money, and won't pay, "and she left quietly.

COURT. Q. Did you see what became of Harrigan? A. No, she left, and I went to my business—I did not see Katzenstein in the street.

Cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH. Q. Was there a crowd of people when you stopped the woman? A. Yes—I know Katzenstein very well—I did not see him there.

Cross-examined by MR. WARNER SLEIGH. Q. Did you see the chain in Harrigan's hand when you stopped her? A. I did—I did not see her rush in amongst a crowd of people—I did not see her speak to anyone—I did not notice how long the piece of chain was—the prosecutrix did not use violent language—the prisoner Harrigan was very much excited.

Katzenstein received a good character.


The prisoner Harrigan was further charged with a common assault on Marian Wallis, to which she


To enter into recognizance to appear for Judgment when called upon.

OLD COURT.—Wednesday, April 12th, Thursday, 13th Good Friday intervening, and Saturday, 15th, 1865.

Before Mr. Baron Channell (with Mr. Justice Smith).

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-454
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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454. SERAPHINI POLIONI (), was indicted for feloniously wounding Alfred Rebbeck, with intent to murder. Second Count, with intent to do him grievous bodily harm.

(For the previous trial of the prisoner, see page 283, and for that of Gregorio Mogni, see page 449).

MESSRS. GIFFARD, Q. C., and BEASLEY conducted the Prosecution, and MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE, with MESSRS. RIBTON, and F. H. LEWIS the Defence.

FREDERICK HENRY CAIGER . I am a surveyor—I made a plan of the premises in Saffron-hill—this (produced) is the original plan—it is correct; the dimensions are made on the scale of a quarter of an inch to the foot.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Will you look at this model (produced) and tell me whether your recollection serves you enough to say if it is a correct one? A. It is quite correct.

FREDERICK SHAW . I keep the Golden Anchor in Great Saffronhill—I know the prisoner by sight—I had known him three months—I saw him at my house on the evening of 26th December—he said something to my wife as she passed, but I did not pay any particular attention to him—it was about 6 o'clock—there were five or six other Italians with him—when I was

going from one end of the bur to the other (he had been muttering something, he said he could settle any such six Englishmen as me—I did not answer him—I never spoke to the man in my life—he left shortly after this; the others remained; I did not observe where they went—I did not hear a disturbance after that; there was no disturbance until one Gregorio struck me in the mouth—that was a very few minutes afterwards—I have no idea what Gregorio struck me for—I had not spoken to him—he was in the part of the bar leading to the tap-room—I was in the bar, behind the counter—I was about to get over the bar to him, and I was pulled back by tome of the customers—he went into the tap-room—I did not go after him; I could not, they prevented—I went as far as the bar-parlour door, and I got hustled towards the street-door, leading into Castle-street—I was going out for the purpose of calling the police—I did go out—I went to the door, and saw Fawell, and as I came back from the door they thought I was going into the bagatelle-room, and I was thrust into the bar-parlour, and the door locked upon me.

COURT. Q. That was by your own friends? A. Yes—there were no Italians in that part of the bar—that was after I had been to the door for the police.

MR. BEASLEY. Q. When you went to the street-door did you see a constable there? A. I saw Fawell passing, and called him in—at that time there was a noise going on in the tap-room—I never saw the prisoner again until the police had got him in custody, and were bringing him out of the bagatelle-room into the street—I was then in the bar-parlour—he was not brought in there; only taken by the door—I afterwards saw Michael Har-rington—he is now dead—when I saw him he was at the door leading to the bar from the bagatelle-room; that is the north door, the door facing Castle-street—I raised his clothes, and found his bowels protruding all over the lower part of his body—he was taken away to the hospital—on the Saturday night before the 24th, I had turned an Italian out of the house, and an Englishman too who was in his company.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Was that in the presence of the prisoner? A. No—I have kept this house about a year and nine months—before that I was in the Metropolitan police—my house is not a good deal frequented by the police—Fawell, the policeman, had not been in the house that evening—he had not been drinking there at all—he had neither been in the tap-room or at the bar—my wife might have been in the bar when the prisoner said he could settle any such six Englishmen as me—she was in the bar—I would not say for certain what part of the bar she might have been in; if she had been at one end, it would be im-possible for her to hear what was said—I would not say for certain whether she was in the bar or not, but I really believe she was—I would not swear that she heard what Polioni said—I can't say whether she was near enough to hear it—I may have stated, "I and my wife were in the bar;"very likely she might have been—it is true that I stated before, "The prisoner made some remark to her, I don't think she took any notice"—he did make some remark to my wife—that was immediately before the remark he made to me about six Englishmen—it might have been uttered at the same moment—I have not the least doubt that my wife was present, and heard it—she is here—I think she was here at the prisoner's former trial; I am not certain—I don't think she was examined—I won't say whether she was or not—I really do not know for certain whether she was or not—I know she was here on one occasion, and she was not called—she has been living with

me since the prisoner's former trial—I hare told you she was here, but not examined on one occasion—I don't know whether she is here as a witness today—she is subpœnaed, I believe, on the opposite side; I mean for the defence—I can't say whether she is subpœnaed by the Crown; if she has been, it is within the last hour—she has not been out of the way to avoid the service of a subpoena that I am aware of; I am quite certain she has not—I know that she in here now—we have not talked this matter over; we may have merely made a remark about it, but we have never made it common talk—I am nick and tired of hearing of it; I have left off talking of it entirely—I am certain my wife and I have not talked it over; not of late; some time ago, I dare say we might—I have not had any quarrel with my wife about this matter; none whatever—since this case has been going on I have been taken up for an assault on my wife's sister—I was not Charged; I was merely summoned before a Magistrate—I was not brought up; I went up, in obedience to a summons—I dare say I knew if I did not, that a warrant would soon follow—on that occasion I called four policemen to prove that the whole thing was untrue—the Magistrate bound me over, with two sureties, to keep the peace—all the witnesses on the opposite side were Italians.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. When did this transaction take place? A. It was supposed to have taken place in the passage of the Police-court—my wife's sister was there on behalf of the opposite party—I can't say as to the date; it was previous to Gregorio's trial—I think his case was then being heard before the Magistrate—I was going to the witness-box to be examined—the allegation against mo was striking her in the breast in the passage of the Court—it was very much crowded, I had great difficulty in getting by—she was there, I believe, with the witnesses for the prosecution in that case—Mr. Negretti was in Court on that occasion. My wife was in the bar on this evening—I think the size of the bar is about eighteen feet by four—we were very busy indeed—if my wife was at one end of the bar serving she could scarcely hear what passed between me and any other person at the other end, if any one was hallooing.

ALFRED REBBECK . I have for some time been potboy at the Golden Anchor—I have known the prisoner about four or five years, known him to speak to, and known him well—I called him Seraphin—on the night of 26th December, between six and seven o'clock I was serving in the bagatellc-room—there were no Italians in the bagatelle-room—there were a great many Italians in the tap-room—I saw no others but Italians in the tup-room—there had been a little dancing there in the early part of the evening, about an hour and half before—it is called the dancing-room—I went from the bar and passed from the bagatelle-room into the tap-room—at that time I saw the prisoner there—I also saw a man who is called John, Gregorio's brother, his proper name is Giovanni Mogni—he does not play an organ; he is a frame-maker—there is a man named John who plays an organ; that is a different man—when I went in Giovanni Mogni told me to go back or else I should catch it as well us the others—the prisoner heard it; he might have beard it, he did not speak it soft, he spoke loud—I did not say anything to that, I went back—I asked him first, what for, I had done nothing—he said, "Go back, don't be a fool" and I went back into the bagatelle-room—I made a communication to the persons who were in the bagatelle-room, and in consequence of what they said to me I went out into the yard—I got out of the window—the window was open, it remained open—I got some sticks from the brew-house, kitchen and cellar, I dare say there were five or

six—there were two or three or three or four blind-roller, a copper-stick, and a broom-handle—I handle those through a cupboard in the corner of the room; it is represented on this model—it leads down into a room below, it was a place formerly used for handing up dinners or something of the sort—I did not come hack through the window, I came through the cupboard—there is a passage and some stairs running up, the cupboard has no took to it, the basement of the house is underneath—the persons in the bagatelle-room took the sticks from me before I came in again, at I was coming up—after I had got into the room I went out again into the bar for a pipe—I came back with the pipe from the bar through the bagatelle-room door (the north-door)—as I was coming back into the room I saw Mrs. King—she was going out of the door leading to the tap-room (the west-door)—I had only got just by the door, just by the cupboard—I saw Mrs. King falling as I came in; I taw her go backwards when the door was open—she fell half in the passage and half in the door, fell back like—upon that I ran of to tell them I wanted no row—I went to the door—I did not do anything with my hands till seraphin stabbed me—I went and laid hold of the door like that (describing) and Mr. King and Mellership were behind the door—I said, "I want no row here"—that place is lighted with gas, both the bagatelle-room and the passage—when I got to the door I saw Serapbin the prisoner; he stabbed me in the right side—I saw the knife after he had stabbed me, I saw him pull it out of me; then I hit him on the head with the broom-handle—it was on the form by the side of the door—he then ran at mo again—I saw the knife in his hand like that, when he came in, backhanded, with his arm up and his head down—I bobbed aside and he went past me and the door was shut—Mr. King and Mellership were behind the door; that was the same door I had taken hold of—at that time there was no other Italian in the bagatelle-room besides the prisoner—I fell half on the table with my face to the wall, leaning half over the table and my hand by my right side where I was stabbed—there was a good bit of shuffling in the room; they were shuffling about, and when I looked round I saw Seraphin a-top of Mick Harrington and I went to pull him off by the collar, I tried to do it, but I lost my senses and rolled off—when I recovered my senses again I found police-constable Fawell, 425 in the room and another one also named Elliott—I said to Fawell, "That man stabbed me"—I pointed to the prisoner—he made no answer—I was taken to the Royal free Hospital, Gray's-inn-road—some time after I had been there the prisoner was brought to my bed-side; I don't know how soon that was after the occurrence, they awoke me up; I was asleep, just in a doze—-at that time it was thought I was not likely to recover; I thought so myself—Mr. Hill the doctor told me to speak the truth as I was dying—I looked up and at the tack of me I saw Seraphini, and I said, "There is the man what done it"—the prisoner made no answer; he held his head back—I think I was in the hospital about two months—on the 26th December I wore a white billy-code or wide-awake; it was very dirty—I do not know what has become of it—I have never seen it since that night, or heard anything of it.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. What age are you? A. Twenty-two—I have passed the greater part of my life in this house, from childhood—I became pot-boy and have been so ever since—I know Gregorie—I have known him I dare say about two years, by using the house—I never knew his name—I had known the prisoner before—a great many I talians frequent our house; they work at frame-making—I don't know what the English work at; that is a rummy question to ask me—I don't

know at the same trade as the Italians—the Italians don't always dance there; they do sometimes, when they want to I suppose—the Italians do not as a general rule use the bagatelle-room—the English play bagatelle, they enjoy themselves when they want to, I suppose—the cupboard is in the bagatelle-room and the staircase is at the bottom of it—you can get from the cupboard to the staircase; it leads to the kitchen and up into the bar by the half-door and so on to Saffron-hill or Castle-street, or any part you like—this was Boxing-night; they boxed me very well too—I had not been making myself rather happy; I was too hard at work that night, too busy—I had not been very thirsty in the early part of the day—I had not been drinking—I had taken nothing—I had taken my beer; I am allowed three pints a day—I had no more on Boxing-night than any other day—I had not had my three pints at this time, I had only had two, they did me out of the other—I did not have any supper—I know Fawell the policeman—he does not come to our house often, never—he had not been in the house that evening, not before the row; I am quite sure about that—I did not see him or hear that he was there—if he had been there I dare say I should have seen him; I am in and out of the bar all the night—of course I have seen him in the house, but not that day—he does not use the house—he was there last Saturday, he brought me my paper, my subpoena—the tap-room is not a dancing-room, they do dance there when they want to—the young ladies from the neighbourhood dance there when they want to—the Italians were all in that room—I did not see them breaking up the benches, but when I came out of the hospital I saw they had been broken up—it was me who supplied the English in the bagatelle-room with their weapons—I had never done such a thing before—they were nicely convenient.

Q. You anticipated a row, and so you thought you would give the English the means of a good stand-up fight; that was the history of it, was it not? A. No; a woman came in and said there was seventeen of them with knives in their hands the night before this—that was a Mrs. Stewart—I don't know whether she is here—after I had supplied the English with the weapons, they did not go to the tap-room door in a body of six or eight and call out to the Italians to come out to them—I mean to say that did not occur; they were all sitting down there; nothing of the kind occurred—I saw Mrs. King falling—I did not see who struck her; I said so before—I did not see anybody strike her—I daren't say who it was; I saw some one's arm up—I have no doubt she was struck, from the way she fell—I did not see anybody strike her—I did not see who it was done it—I said before the Magistrate that it was not Seraphini who struck her; that was what I told you before—I don't know whether it was Seraphini who struck her—(The witness's deposition being read stated: "I saw one of them knock Mrs. King down, it was not the prisoner done that")—I know I said that; I said so before, at the first trial—I was not examined before the Coroner, only at the Police-court—I heard Mrs. King say at the Police-court that it was Seraphini that did it; after that when I was examined here on the first trial, I said, "I saw one of them knock her down; I don't know which it was—I can't say it was the prisoner, I don't know"—I say so now; I say I don't know who it was done it—I saw some one's hand up to knock her down, but I don't know whose it was—I saw her falling, and I saw some one's arm up—I did not see any thing but the arm.

Q. If you saw nothing but the arm, how are you able to say it was not Seraphini? A. I say I don't know who it was done it—it might have been Seraphini, or it might have been some one else—there was a lot morn behind

him; anybody else might have reached over his shoulder—I saw the arm go back—there were about twelve or fourteen altogether; not all coming in at the same time, all behind him, and up he went and stabbed me in the room and the door was shut, and the others were all shut out; they turned back—the others did not know he was in the room—I don't know that I ever said before to-day that I used the words, "This man stabbed me"—I daren't answer whether I did or not—I did not hear that Fawell said I did, and pointed the prisoner out—I did say it—I think this is the first time I have mentioned it; I don't know if I mentioned it before or no—I don't think I have mentioned before the fact of the prisoner being brought to my bedside—I don't know who brought him to my bedside; he was there when I looked round—he was not the only person brought; there was a lot more there—I was not asked to say which of them it was—I don't know whether he was the only Italian—I had known him so well that I am sure he was the person who was brought to my bedside—I did not see any other Italian—MR. Baldock said, "You listen to me"—he was reading a paper, what I said—he said, "Listen to this, Rebbeck, hear what the doctor says; you are dying, "and they they took him away—he said nothing else—I pointed out the prisoner myself—he was standing at the side of my bed—Baldock was not close to him; he was at the other side with the doctor—Baldock was one side of the doctor, and the prisoner the other, close to my bedside, looking over the bed, and when I looked up I saw him—he was looking down, and when I said, "That is the man, "he held his head back—I remember Gregorio Mogni being before the Magistrate—I was examined as a witness there.

Q. I will read what you said on that occasion, "I believe I said before it was not Pelizzioni who knocked her (Mrs. King) down, I am not sure; I know the prisoner—I saw him in the tap-room—I can't say whether he is the man who knocked Mrs. King down?" A. Yes; so I say now, because I don't know who it was—I was coming in from the bar when I saw Mrs. King knocked down—I saw the arm, as I came in at the northdoor from the bar; it was not in the passage; it was in the room—Mrs. King was not actually in the room—she was going out at the west-door and was knocked down into the passage; she was half out of the door.

COURT. Q. Did she fall back into the room or into the passage? A. Half in each like, not backwards, sideways; her face was towards the tap-room; towards the bagatelle-room I mean—she was more in the passage than she was in the bagatelle-room; then she went into the passage.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Did she fall with her legs into the bagatelle room and her head in the passage? A. No; her legs were in the passage and her head partly in the bagatelle-room—I saw her head—she was lying on her side—I saw no more of her that night, because I was stabbed a minute afterwards—she was lying partly in the door and partly out—if the door had been closed at that moment I dare say it would have crushed her head, and then she moved away into the passage—she pulled her head up, I suppose, I saw no more of her—at this time, the English were congergated in the bagatelle-room; I don't know how many of them; there might be fifteen or sixteen, more or less—the bagatelle-room is lighted with three lights in the middle of the room, and there is one over the bagatelle-board—there are four lights altogether—the three lights are not above two feet from the bagatelle-board—there is a light in the passage; it is a gas light atop of the water-closet—it is to light the water-closet and the passage too—immediately on seeing Mrs. King knocked down, I went to the door to tell them I wanted no row—none of the other English came forward—I did not

see any of them—I was then immediately stabbed—I had got right up to the door, because I had hold of the lock with my hand—the door was partially open and I had hold of the door, so that my body would be presented face to face to the man who was entering.

Q. Then except your own physical power there was nothing to prevent the whole of the Italians from rushing in? A. Mr. King and Mr. Mellership were standing behind the door—they did not all rush to the door—the others were sitting down in the room singing a song—I was stabbed in the side here (pointing to his right side) between the eighth and ninth ribs, I believe—I struck the prisoner with the broom-handle—when he pulled the knife out, I laid hold of the broom—handle and hit him in the head, and he ran at me again and I fell in the room and the door was shut—I went back into the room—the door closes with a spring—it is not a swing—door which opens either inwards or outwards; it opens inwards and closes of itself with a spring.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. How long after you were stabbed were you first examined before the Magistrate? A. I do not know; I think it was about five or six weeks—when I fell or leaned over the table I had gone back into the room and the door had been shut—when I was examined here before as a witness against the prisoner, my deposition that I had made on 23rd January was put into my hands, and I was asked if I saw my signature, and then it was read to me—I am not now able to say whether it was the prisoner or not that struck Mrs. King; I do not know—I believe I did tell the Magistrate that it was not the prisoner—I cannot explain how I came to say that; I don't know; I was so bad; I felt so bad; I was taken from the hospital to the police—court, and from the police—court back again to the hospital—when the other Italians turned back I don't believe they knew that Pelizzioni was in the room, or else they would have made a rush to come in with him—I suppose they turned back or they would have began pushing the door if they were there—I bad got some information about the Italians having knives, from a Mrs. Stewart the night before, Christmas—night—when Pelizzioni was brought to my bedside at the hospital he and the doctor were on one side of my bed, there was a lot of them round the bed—I saw there were two policemen and Inspector Potter; I don't know whether there were any more persons or no—when I said, "That is the man that done it, "the prisoner made no answer—he understands English—I have known him and conversed with him—he talks very good English.

COURT. Q. You say you fell towards the wall, leaning half over the table? A. Yes; with my face to the wall; then I heard a good bit of scuffling in the room, and when I looked round I saw the prisoner on the top of Harrington—I had seen Harrington all the day—I had noticed him in the room just before I saw the prisoner, not above five or ten minutes before—he was singing a song—that was the last I noticed of him before I saw the prisoner atop of him—he was sitting down in the middle of the table—the table was facing the door—that was the table near the gaslight, underneath the lights—bis face was to the door, he asked me to trust him twopence for a pint of beer—his back was to the window, and his face towards the door that Mrs. King was going out at.

MARIA KING . I am the wife of William King—I was with my husband at the Golden Anchor on the night of 26th December—Harrington and several others were there at the same time—we were in the bagatelle—room there—there were no Italians in the room while I was there—from 6 to half—past 6 o'clock I got up to leave the room to go home; I proceeded to the door of the room to go out—that is the door leading out of the bagatelle—

room to go across the passage (the west-door)—when I got to the door I was knocked down—I can say who knocked me down, Seraphini—he—struck me in the mouth with his fist—I cannot say which hand it was with—I was opening the door to go out when I was knocked down—I had got the handle of the door in the act of opening it towards me, to go out, when I was met by the prisoner and knocked down—the door opened towards me—I was opening it with my left hand—when I was struck I fell in the bagatelle-room; I fell back wards—I do not know who picked me up, but I have been told since it was my husband—I know nothing of what happened after I fell.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Then you had not actually got out of the room when you were struck? A. No—I could not exactly say how I fell, how far I was in, because I was knocked backwards into the door, and I had got the door in my hand—I had opened the door with my left hand, pulling it towards me, and at that moment I received the blow, while my left hand was on the door—while I was on the floor in the bagatelle—room I did not bear the people outside rush in; I do not recollect anything more after I was knocked down—there was not a rush before I was knocked down—I did not say so at the last trial.

Q. This is what you said at the last trial, explain it in any way you can, "There was a rush, and I was knocked down by the prisoner?" A. Yes, at the door; that was at the time I opened the door—several persons rushed behind Seraphin—I do not know that I ever knew the prisoner before—I never saw him before, but I saw sufficient to know him again—I next saw him when I was got up and the constable came, and I told him to lock him up—I did not know that any one was stabbed then—I said, "That is the man that struck me" pointing to Seraphin—he was then in the bagatelle—room, in the constable's hands—I saw no other Italian so distinct in the face as Seraphin—there was no other Italian there then—he was the only person in custody, and the only Italian—I was struck in the mouth by that man—I was examined before the Magistrate.

Q. This is what you state in your deposition, "I was going out to go home, and the prisoner met me at the door of the parlour and struck me full in the face—he knocked me backwards—he struck me with his fist—there was a rush just then when I was struck, and I was partly knocked down by the prisoner, the rush completed it, "is that true? A. Yes; I said it—there was a rush made and I was knocked down—I was knocked down by the prisoner; I could not say what was after, because I was knocked down and stunned—I never swore that the rush completed it.

Q. You said you were partly knocked down by the—prisoner, what did you mean by that? A. Because I fell right backwards when the form gave way—there was a form which stood at the back of the door, a seat with a back to it—I was knocked on that and that gave way, and I went down.

COURT. Q. Where did the form stand? A. Facing the door as the door opens; not behind it, facing it—I can't tell how far from the door it was; I never measured it—it was far enough from it for the door to open—I don't understand this plan—the form did not lean against the wall—I think you could pass between it and the door if the door was wide open—it was a moveable form—I had hold of the handle of the door with my left—hand, going out, when I was struck—I was sideways to the door—the door would not screen me, I stood more for going out, I was not opening it so wide.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. Whereabouts in the passage was the prisoner at the time he struck you? A. He was at the door—he was between the two—

doors, in the passage—there were some others behind him—nothing passed between us before he struck me—when I got up I went out, and Mrs. Shaw sent me down into her kitchen—I went out by the door against the bar—parlour; that was afterwards—at the time I left the bagatelle—room I do not know whether the door I had been trying to get out of was shut or open.

WILLIAM KING . I am the husband of the last witness—I am a bone—button manufacturer—I was at the Golden Anchor with my wife on the night of 26th December last—I remember my wife getting up to go home—we were having a bit of a concert to ourselves in thebagatelle—room—Harrington sang a song before my wife got up to go home—I was sitting near the table, about a couple of yards from the door—when my wife got to the door I saw her knocked down—from the position I was in, I was not able to see who did it—I went and picked her up—I saw the prisoner there—I pulled him off atop of Harrington—he was the first that came in the room—he came in very shortly after my wife was knocked down; I don't know exactly how soon after; he followed soon after she was opening the door—I saw her knocked down, and I ran and picked her up, and I was knocked down myself behind the door, and when I got up again I saw the prisoner on the top of Harrington—I Was knocked down after I had picked up my wife—I can't say whether the door continued open or whether it was shut—I was only down a few seconds—the door was shut when I got up—it was then that I pulled the prisoner off Harrington—at that time there was no other Italian in the bagatelle—room besides the prisoner—no Italian besides the prisoner got into the room.

COURT. Q. When you saw your wife knocked down, was there any Italian in the room? A. No, he had not come in the room then—there was no Italian in the room.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. Did you keep hold of the prisoner until you handed him over to Fawell, the constable? A. Yes—I don't think any one assisted me to hold him—I got him by the collar—I could not say whether any one held his hand.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Do you mean that up to the time you were knocked down there was no other Italian in the room but Seraphim? A. No, there was not—the door was pushed to as soon as I was knocked down—at the time I was knocked down there was no other Italian in the room but the prisoner—it was the rush at the door that knocked me down, but they were knocked back again—there was a rush at the door, and there was a person got in—I was behind the door, trying to hold the door—Seraphini did not knock me down, it was the rush at the door—no one got into the room, because I was up again in a second—I was pushed down by the door being pressed against me by the persons outside—before I got up not one of the other Italians bad got in. (The witness's deposition before the Magistrate on 27th December being read, stated: "There was a rush of persons into the room. The prisoner and other Italians came into the room; there was a scuffle, and I was knocked down")—I contradicted that the last time. I believe I did not say that; it was a misunderstanding, as I said before; I contradicted it on the former trial—I picked up my wife at the door of the bagatello—room, inside the bagatelle—room—I did not say before the Magistrate that I followed her out and picked her up; she was knocked down in the bagatelle—room, and I picked her up in the bagatelle—room.

COURT. Q. You were behind the door? A. Yes, trying to keep it closed—I could not say exactly how near Mellership was to me—I believe he was

on one side of the door, and I on the other—he was trying to hold it as well as me, I believe; I could not say exactly.

RICHARD MELLERSHIP . I am a button-maker—I live in Birmingham now—I did live at 42, Cold Bath-square—on the night of the 26th December, I was at the Golden Anchor—I was in the bagatelle-room between 6 and 7 o'clock—Harrington was there at the same time with me—he had been sitting by the side of me—he bad been singing a song—just after he finished bis song there was a disturbance in the room, and the Italians rushed in—there came a rush at the door, and one came in at the door—that was the prisoner—no one else rushed in besides him—there was an attempt made to get in, but they were forced back—there were two or three behind; I could not see who they were—no one else got in besides the prisoner at that time—I was standing just inside the door, about a yard from the door, keeping guard—when the prisoner rushed in he struck a side-blow as he rushed—I did not see anything in his hand—he struck a side-blow, and Harrington fell to the ground—he struck the blow as he came in—I don't know that he made it at any one in particular; it went near Harrington, and he fell—my wife caught hold of me and pulled me away to the other side of the room.

Cross-examined bv MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Did the prisoner come in alone? A. He was the only one that got into the room—he struck a side-blow with his hand as he came in, upon Harrington—Harrington was close to the door, hardly a yard from it—he was the nearest person to the prisoner when he came in—the door was forced open by the rush; nobody opened it from our side—if anybody had opened I must have seen it; I was close to it—I will undertake to swear that nobody did open it—I can't be mistaken about it—I mean deliberately to swear that nobody in the room opened the door; the one that came in opened the door—he pushed it open—that was the prisoner—he was the only one in the room—the door was forced to and the others were kept out; I swear that—(The wilness's deposition being read, stated:—"The prisoner rushed in first—there were several other Italians behind him—when the Italians came into the room the deceased had just finished singing a song, and the prisoner without having a word, struck the deceased and he fell")—only one Italian came into the room—there is no mistake on my part—that was all I ever said, and all I know about it—if I said "Italians "came into the room, I was mistaken; they rushed, but he was the only one that got in—the last time I was here I did not make that statement—I don't think I ever made that statement about "Italians"—I signed my deposition—I put a x to it—I said the Italians made a rush, but only one came into the room—I did not say what in put down in that deposition—I did not say the words you say—no Italians got in, only the prisoner—I did say, "the prisoner rushed in first, there were several other Italians behind him"—what I meant, was that they were behind the door, outside the door—I swear that that was what I meant—if I said, "When the Italians came into the room" it was a mistake—there were Italians who made an attempt to get in—if the word is there, of course I must have said it—I meant that the Italians made an attempt to get in and only one got in—I can hardly account for the use of the word—I knew afterwards that the case was that only one got in, and that was all that did get in, and that was the one the policeman caught.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. Did you ever say anything about the policeman having caught one? A. No—it was King that secured him and gave him into custody of Fawell, I think his name is—I saw Mrs. King start to go out of

the room, she was knocked down—I cannot say who knocked her down—the next I saw of her was in Mr. King's arms—I should think that was not a minute before the door was forced open.

JOHN LIDDELL . I am a French-polisher—I was engaged at the Golden Anchor on 26th December at my ordinary work of French-polishing—I had been engaged there that day—I was in the bagatelle-room between 6 and 7 in the evening—my work was then finished for the day—I sang a song—I was the first that sung, and then Harrington sang one called the "Ship's Carpenter"—just after he had finished his song I saw Mrs. King in the act of going out of the room—she went out, passed the door, as it were, and in less than a moment she was on her back, knocked down by some one—she could not have been knocked down by any one else but Seraph mi Pelizzioni, because he was the only man that entered the room—I did not see the hand that struck her, but that was the only individual—I did not see him strike the blow—her husband went and picked her up—he returned back into the room, and Seraphini was in the room, and he made a blow at Harrington in that way (describing it) and he fell on him and I was one of the parties that struck Seraphim with the blind-roller which was then in the room—there was an attempt made by several other Italians to get into the room—no other besides the prisoner did get in; they attempted or endeavoured; the first one who was the leader of the lot behind was struck on the shoulder—I believe that was Gregorio's brother, the man that plays the organ—they call him "John"—the rest all flew back—by whom he was struck, I do not know—I do not know what occurred at the door—when they were forced back they slammed it to, of course—the door shut to, because it was on a spring hinge—I mean the door leading from the passage, which divided it from the tap-room—it closes by a spring hinge, which causes the door to close every time you open it—it does not fasten into a socket, it only closes to—I saw the prisoner make a side-blow at Harrington, and saw Harrington fall—he said, "I am stabbed"—I believe I have known the prisoner by sight upwards of two years—I did not know him by name—I have seen him in the house—I have worked in the neighbourhood twenty-five years, and I have worked for the Italians; I believe Mr. Negretti knows it.

Crass-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. You are quite sure that only Pelizzioni came in, and no other Italians? A. No other Italian was in the room at the time the man fell—I have been taking something to day, not a little too much—I was not drunk on that occasion—I did not have the amount of three pints of porter the whole day; I should not think that would be likely to affect me—I positively swear, so help me God, that no other Italian came into the room at the time that affair occurred—I have no vindictive feeling against the prisoner, but I am perfectly positive, solemnly positive, and always have been, no other came in with Pelizzioni—I was quite positive about it the next day—(The witness's deposition being read, stated: "Several other Italians followed the prisoner into the room")—I beg leave to say my evidence before Mr. Baron Martin is very different to that; I used the word "attempted, "and I used it at the police-court, the deposition is facts, and what was written wrongly at the police-court I can't account for—that is my name and handwriting—what I said was that several other Italians attempted or endeavoured to follow the prisoner into the room; if the reporters did not put it down correctly they are wrong—the Italians followed behind, but they did not come inside the door of the bagatelle-room—I did not say they followed the prisoner into the room, they followed into the passage—they followed him out of one room into the

passage until they got to the bagatelle-room door, where the woman wan struck—I am answering your questions—I do not think to beat you, you are an educated man, and I am not, but I will not be beaten, I speak the troth; I am not excited—I am not always as cool and collected as I am now; not when I get with such educated persons as you to excite roe, because it is very exciting; you do excite me very much—I was not excited in the bagatelle-room, I had not had sufficient to be excited—I have not been drinking now; I have had a glass of porter it is true, possibly you have had a glass of wine, which is stronger, but I am not excited—(The Court cautioned the witness to answer properly and respectfully)—several other Italians attempted to come into the room; they followed as far as the passage, only attempted, that was the leader behind Seraphini, Gregorio's brother; he was the first—I did not say before the Magistrate that several other Italians followed the prisoner into the room; they attempted—I did not say what is put down—I altered it when it was read over to me here—I am not aware that it was read over to me by the Magistrate's clerk; (it was read over at the hospital)—I can't say positively; I really forget whether it was read over to me, but I know positively that I never asserted such a thing—I sang the first song, and Harrington the next—Pelizzioni got into the room by the rush, rushing into the room; there was some row at the first onset in front of the door, or the tap-room, but I could not see through the door—I suppose he got into the room on his legs, how could he anyhow else? he rushed into the room, and there I saw him—none of us opened the door, certainly not, when I was standing inside and poor Harrington on my right not five feet away from me—nobody opened the door, it came open through Mrs. King falling down, in a moment, and he was taken out in two moments—it came open by Mrs. King falling down, it has got no latch to it; her bead or some portion of her frame must have come against it to knock it open; it might be her shoulders, I don't know—I saw her fall against the door, and that knocked it open, decidedly; I should think a woman of her weight would knock it open, or almost a kitten would—I am positive that was so.

Q. Then I am afraid she was knocked down, or fell, before Pelizzioni came in? A. How could she be, when no other man was there but him—the woman was not intoxicated, she was knocked down by the party that came into the room; that party was Seraphini Pelizzioni—the door was not opened till she fell against it; she was knocked against it, and that opened it.

Q. How could that open it if it opened inwards? A. She must be out-side must she not, and when the door flew open she was the woman that was knocked against it—there are two sides to a door—she was not knocked against it inside, but her head came partly inside—she must have been knocked against the door from the outside, not from the street, from the passage, and that knocked the door open, and a portion of her was knooked into the room, perhaps her head, or her head and shoulders; at all events, enough of her for me to see that it was Mrs. King; her shoulders might We come in, I don't remember; if I saw you knocked down, and saw your wig knocked off, I should know your wig from your hair—I am giving straightforward evidence—she was pushed down, or hit in some way so that she fell on her back—she was inside the room before the door was open—she was in our company; she went out, saying, "I am going home; "she went to go out, and did open the door, and the door slammed to again, and then in a moment she was knocked down, and the door flew open.

Q. That was it, was it; I thought you said Seraphini knocked her down? A. I said the first man that entered the room was the man that knocked her down; I don't know his name, although I have known him two years—I had not been in the tap-room in the early part of the evening; not half-an-hour before—my business was confined to the bar the whole of the day—I was French-polishing the window-boards—I did not see any policeman there—I saw no policeman inside the bar, not till the policeman was called in—Mr. Shaw, the landlord, called him in.

Q. Just attend to this: "There happened to be a private policeman there, and he fetched another one in uniform, "that was what you said on the last trial; what did you mean by it? A. Mr. Shaw said there was a private policeman, it was what I was told; I did not assert it, it was what I was told—Mr. Shaw said the private policeman was there, just in the bar or outside, or somewhere; he was not in the bar; there was no private policeman in the bar—I have known that private policeman these twenty-five years, his name is Richard Fawell.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. Was Fawell in plain clothes or in uniform when he came in? A. In plain clothes; that is what I mean by a private policeman—I was in the bagatelle-room when Fawell came in, and at that time he was in private clothes—Mr. Shaw told me he had sent for him; that was what I said at the last trial—at the time Mrs. King got up to go I was in the bagatelle-room, standing as near the bagatelle-table as possible—I don't know how she got out—I saw her go across the room and go to the door—I saw her knocked down—I heard a noise, which caused me to look round, and I saw Mrs. King on her back; that was the first I knew of the row—I had not moved at that time from where Harrington and I sat together.

Q. At the time you saw Mrs. King on her back was the door shut or open? A. When I saw her on her back it had flown open, but when she went out, it closed after her, and presently I saw her on her back—between her going out and the door closing and flying open again when she fell back into the room, was scarcely a minute I should think; I could not say exactly to a minute—the next thing I saw was that man Seraphini, or a man whose name I did not know then, I know him now, I mean the prisoner, jump over as it were, and he rushed at Harrington in that way, and Harrington fell, and said, "Oh, I am stabbed"—I saw the prisoner make a kind of jump over Mrs. King as she was lying on the ground, and then King runs and picks up his wife; King came from close behind one of the seats, the seat nearest the door; he was on the opposite seat to me; in a second the police came, and took the prisoner in hand; King was the man that lifted him off Harrington; I had no time to do anything—I followed him out to the bar when they were taking him out through the private-bar, and then the potman rebbeck threw himself in my hands, and said, "Oh, MR. Liddell, I am stabbed"

GEORGE STANLEY . I am a painter, and was in the employ of Messrs Banting, of St. James's-street, before I got the sack on this occasion—I was at the Golden Anchor on Boxing-night; I had been there pretty nigh all day—I did not particularly make friends with any one there; there were other persons there—I was in the bagatelle-room—between 6 and 7 in the evening I heard a noise in the tap-room; upon that I went out of the bagatelle-room into a little street, I don't know whether it was Castle-street or not—I went out of the door leading into the bar-parlour, and then out into the street, and went round to the door opening into Saffron-hill and entered again at the door leading into the tap-room—I went

into the tap-room—I saw several Italians there; they were breaking up the forms and seats—there were three or four standing against the table; I can't say whether they were breaking up, they were in the act as I thought of doing so; I can swear that I saw one or two breaking up forms, some of them had got pieces of wood in their hands; they seemed to be crouching towards the door leading to the bagatelle-room—they said something in Italian, but I did not know what it meant, at least they told me to go out: they said, "You had better go out"—I did go out, and went into the bagatelle-room, exactly in the same way I had come, and I told the people in the bagatelle-room what I had seen—when I got back there was no Italian in the bagatelle-room, not one—I will take my oath of that—I had not been absent more than six or seven minutes I am sure—I saw Mr. King in the bagatelle-room; he placed himself behind the door—I saw Mrs. King go out of the bagatelle-room; I can't say who opened the door, but I know die went out, and she came tumbling back, but I can't say who struck her, or whether she was struck at all; she came tumbling back in some way or other, whether shoved or struck I don't know; she fell into the bagatelle-room—I saw Rebbeck go into the tap-room with a pipe—I did not see him come back into the bagatelle-room—I saw him in the tap-room—I don't (mow how he came back—I saw him afterwards standing up in one corner of the room with hishand on his side, but I did not know whether he was stabbed then or not—before that I had heard him say, "I will have no row here, "or something to that effect; that was after he left the bagatelle-room to go into the tap-room—I saw Polioni when he came into the baga-telle-room, that was after Rebbeck went out with the pipe—I saw Polioni come in, and make a sort of a side-thrust at Michael Harrington—I did not see anything in his hand, I merely saw that—I could not exactly judge the distance he was from Harrington—Harrington was facing the door, and Polioni rushed at him like that; I believe Harrington tried to make a grab at him, and he went like that (thrusting)—Harrington had nothing in his hand; he made an attempt to catch him, and he twisted and went down on his side, and Polioni made a rush to get out at the door, and Bannister being in his way he made a strike at him, and Bannister rolled on to the bagatelle-board, and fell down at my feet, and said, "Look out, Painter;"Bannister said that after he was stuck in the hand—I did not see Rebbeck at that time—I looked round, and saw Bannister lying under the bagatelle-board, with some blood coming from his hand; I can't say which hand.

Q. Did you do anything to Polioni? A. If I had not done something to him I suppose he would to me—I struck him on the head I believe, with a piece of wood—he fell on Harrington, and then the piece of wood I hit him with broke, and I had nothing more to defend myself with, so I got out the window and out of the yard and went to fetch more assistance—I asked some to come and they would not—I went back exactly the same way, an got in at the window again—I saw Harrington there—I asked him what was the matter—he did not make any statement—Polioni was gone then—King and Mellership had got hold of him when I went out of the window—up to that time no other Italian but Polioni had got into the rooui; none whatever, if I was to die this minute.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. I suppose you were examined before the Coroner and at the Police-court? A. I was not examined before the Coroner—I was examined at the Clerkenwell Police-court—I was examined on Seraphini's former trial, not on the other—I was examined for the prosecution.

Q. What did you mean by saying this, I cannot quite make it out, "I said to King, 'Open the door and let them come in one at a time,' "did you say that? A. Yes—I said we were bound to do them, to beat them—I thought that was the best way to beat them—we were prepared with broomsticks and other articles of a similar description in our own defence—I can't say whether all of us were armed; I am sure I was—I don't know that Rebbeck had brought us arms; some one did; I don't say Rebbeck; I can't say who did—some one gave me a stick, but who I can't say—some one brought in some sticks, and laid them on the bagatelle-board, and I took one up, I can't speak for others—I can't say whether the others were armed or not.

COURT. Q. Did the person who brought up the arms bring them up through what is called the cupboard? A. I can't say—I should not like to take an oath.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. You did say to King, "Open the door and let them cone in one at a time?" A. Yes—that is quite right—that was before Seraphini had come in at all—I believe King did open the door—I am sure he did, a little way, and Seraphini came in and the door was shut; King shut it immediately—whether it was opened again I can't say, my eyes were upon Seraphini—what he did afterwards I can't say.

Q. Then your version of the story is, not that the door was pushed open by Seraphini and the people outside, but that King opened it? A. That I can't say—whether the door was pushed in or Seraphini was pushed in; I can't say; he came in one way or the other—I will swear Seraphini was the only man in the bagatelle-room—we took good care he should be the only man—we thought that was the only way to beat him—he would have beaten us if we had given him the slightest chance—we did not get him in, he was shoved in, or he came in at all events, and I hit him on the head, bat before that he made the thrust at Harrington—I told King to let them in one at a time, because when I was in the tap-room I saw there was a lot, so I thought I would let them in one at a time and beat them in detail—what was the motive of their coming into the room if they did not mean mischief?

MR. GIFFARD. Q. You had seen the Italians in the tap-room breaking up benches? A. I had—I should think there were fourteen or fifteen Italians there—I told the people in the bagatelle-room what I had seen, and then I took hold of a weapon as soon as I got in; they laid across the bagatelle-board—I saw Mrs. King go out of the room, but she came tumbling back.

Q. Did you see King open the door, or do you suppose that he opened it? A. He was standing behind the door—I did say that he opened it, but I should not like to swear whether he did or not—it does not matter who opened the door—whether the door was pushed open or whether he opened it I don't positively know; it is a very hard thing to say—at the time Seraphini turned to go out of the room, Bannister was between him and the door, so that he should not get out.

Q. Are you able to say positively whether at that time any other Italian was in the room? A. I am sure, if I was to fall dead on these steps this minute, there was not—I am telling no lie, if I am may God strike me dead—Seraphini was in the room when Harrington fell, and no other Italian—he struck Bannister, and Bannister rolled under the bagatelle-board, sayiug, "Look out, Painter"—they call me "George the painter."

COURT. Q. Did you know the prisoner before? A. No—I saw him plainly—that was the first time I had seen him—of course he was in the room long enough for me to notice him; I could not see him before; I could not

see him in the tap-room—the first time I saw him was in the bagatelle-roem, but I am quite convinced about the man.

CHARLES BANNISTER . On the evening of 26th December last I went to the Golden Anchor, between 6 and 7 o'clock—that was the first time I had been there that day—in consequence of something that was said to me at the bar I went into the bagatelle-room—I went from the bar. from the Castle-street entrance; that would be across the end of the bar and the barparlour—I know the half-hatch which is between the inside of the bar and the tap-room—a person in the tap-room could see me going across the bar into the bagatelle-room—I did not see Mrs. King go out—about three or four minutes after I had got into the bagatelle-room I saw the Italians rush towards the door to push it open—I mean the bagatelle-room-door leading to the tap-room, the west-door—they did not get further than the door—the door was thrown wide open, but Seraphini was the only one that got right into the room, the others got no further than the door—when the door was wide open the fight began at the door—the moment Seraphini got into the room the door was closed—he was the only Italian I saw in the room at the time, the others got no further than the door, and when the door was closed he was the only one in the room—I know no more, I made it my business to get out of the room—I was stabbed—I don't know who it was stabbed me—I was standing in between Rebbeck and Harrington—I can't say how I was with reference to Seraphini—we were standing all within about two or three feet of the door, very close together—I was stabbed in the right hand with ft knife—the knuckle was cut of the little finger—I have lost the use of my finger—I was knocked down—I laid first on the table and from there I think I fell under the bagatelle-table or close by—I spoke to Stanley and said, "Stanley I shall get out"—the prisoner was then in the room, he was being held down by King, or King had him in hand.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Will you show the Jury where you were out? A. Here (showing it)—the doctor the it from here to there to take the knuckle out—I did not see how or where the man who stabbed me was standing at the time he did it—I did not see him raise his hand, or anything, before I was stabbed—I did not put up my hand to protect myself that I recollect—I was examined before the magistrate at Bagnigge Wells police-court on 23rd January—I was not called upon the first trial; I don't know how that was—I was waiting outside the door on the first trial, but was not called in—I did not hear from any policeman why I was not called—I have never heard why I was not called—I have been told several things, but I never thought they were facts—I think I know Inspector Potter; he did not tell me, nor did any of the constables—I was not bound over, I was here on subpoena.

Q. I will call your attention to what you said before the magistrate, "almost as soon as I got in, a number Italians, of whom the prisoner is one, rushed in; "have you no idea now, why you were not called? A. If I was not called in, it was not my fault, I was outside—the Italians rushed to the door, the door was wide open and the fight was against the door, perhaps it may be in the room or it may be out of the room, it was at the door—a number of Italians rushed to the door but the door was closed, and when I got up off the ground Seraphini was the only one in the room.

Q. Is it true that a number of Italians, of whom the prisoner was one, rushed into the roem? A. They rushed to the door and tried to get in but they did not—I said they rushed to the door, I think that was what

I said in my first evidence—the door was thrown open and the fight began at the door; that was where all the mischief was done—I stated that before the magistrate, Mr. D'Eynconrt.

Q. Have you not expressed a doubt as to whether Seraphini was one among the first who first came up? A. Well, I do not say that I have not.

COURT. Q. Have you expressed any doubt whether Seraphini was one of the persons that got into the room? A. No, I have not.

MR. SERJEANT BALLAKTINE. Q. Have you not expressed a doubt as to whether Seraphini was one of those who first came up? A. I have I know; I know that I have.

Q. Did you not say to a policeman that you doubted whether it was Seraphini, and did not the policeman say to you something of this kind, "Oh, d—it, you funk, do you?" A. Yes, that was said to me at the Police-court; it might have been by a policeman in private clothes, I was in Bagnigge Wells-road, and there were several others, policemen I fancy, one of them said to me, "Well, Bannister, I think you are funking on this case, you are afraid of the knife, but it don't matter what you say, Stanley knows all that you have got to say."

COURT. Q. What bad you said before that? A. I had said nothing—I had said nothing to any policeman, nor to the magistrate—I did express a doubt whether the prisoner was one of those who first came up—I can't say exactly when I first expressed that doubt—I have said it I think several times—I have said to several that I was not exactly sure, because I thought at that time two or three of the Italians were so much alike, I did not exactly know one from the other.

Q. Had you expressed that doubt before the man in plain clothes, whom you thought was a policeman, said this to you? A. To tell you the truth I did not care much about speaking to policemen; it might have been a policeman in private clothes; before he spoke to me I had not expressed the doubt I now mention, to anybody; I think that was the first person I spoke to, and that was the second or third morning after the affair.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Was it after you had been examined, and made the statement, that I have read to you? A. Before; it was not said in the presence of policemen, only those in plain clothes—I think it was in Bagnigge-wells-road; at least, it was close against the Police-court—there were no policemen near that I am aware of—I had come from the hospital, and was going towards the Police-court, and I met with some gentlemen, as I thought they were, they might have been policemen; they spoke to me, and said, "Good morning, Bannister"—I said. "Good morning, "and they said to me, "How is this case going on?"—I said, "I don't know, "and one of them, chaffing, said, "Oh, I think by what I hear, you are funking a bit on it, but it don't matter; we have got the witness Stanley; he knows all about it, don't he?"—I said, "I think he does; he is a young friend that spoke up for me"—I have never seen those persons since—I expressed the doubt as to whether Seraphini was the person, long before I went to the Police-court, to my mother and several others.

COURT. Q. When you say you expressed a doubt whether the prisoner was one of the persons, are we to understand that you have a doubt in your own mind whether he was or not? A. Yes, I have a very great doubt.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. When first did you ex press any doubt? A. I think it was on the next morning, the first time—I was asked by my mother when I went home, "Whatever is the matter with you?"—I said, "I am stabbed

in the hand"—she said, "Who stabbed you? and I said, "I don't exactly know"—she went over to a public-house opposite our place, and some one told her about it, and that Seraphim was locked up for the case, and she said, "Was it Seraphini stabbed you or not? "and I said, "I am not sure whether it was Seraphini or not"—that was what I said before the Magistrate; that was the only doubt I spoke of, because I could not say which man it was—I know I was stabbed, but I can't say who it was thai stabbed me—I saw Seraphini in the room; I have no doubt whatever about that; he was the only Italian in the room when I got up off the ground—I saw no other Italian but him in the room that night—I saw him at the time I saw a number of Italians at the door—I have not the least doubt about that; I saw him at the door then—that was not when I was looking over the dwarf-door—I was in the bagatelle-room within about a foot, or two feet, of the door when it was thrown open, and he passed in—I saw who was in the passage, because the door was thrown wide open, and the light from the centre of the bagatelle-room shone right on their faces—they were prevented coming into the room—I think they were knocked back by two or three English chaps; there was Stanley and young Raffell, I think they were the two that used the sticks, and I had a stick, and we kept them back the tat way we could.

Q. Are you able explain how it was that Seraphini managed to get into the room? A. I think there were only two or three of us when the was first pushed open, and the English chaps were a little bit timid or frightened, and ran away, to left the door, and allowed them to push into the room, and I think when they found we had sticks, and two or three had cracks on the head, they stopped a bit—I don't know whether I was exa-mined before the magistrate the same morning that I had the conversation with the persons in plain clothes in Bagnigge-well's-road, but it was after wards, and I was then bound over to appear at this Court—I attended here it the last trial on my subpoena ready to be called; why I was not called I do not know.

WILLIAM ELLIOTT (Policeman, G 137). On 26th December last I was Called by Fawell, another policeman, into the Golden Anchor—I was in uniform—I went from Saffron-hill into the tap-room—there were a number of Italians in the tap-room, and in the passage—the door leading out of the tap-room into the passage was open when I went in—the door from the passage into the bagatelle-room was shut when I got to it—Fawell went in with me—I put ray shoulder to the door, and forced it open—when I got in I saw the prisoner, and the witness King having hold of him by the collar—at that time there was no other Italian in the room—I and Fawell took him into custody.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Where were you fetched from? A. From Saffron-hill, just opposite the Golden Anchor—Fawell fetched me.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. Were you on duty in Saffron-hill that night? A. Yes; I was on duty when Fawell came up to me—I was standing against a post when he came across to me, apparently from the house.

RICHARD FAWELL (Policeman, A 425). On the night of 26th December last, I was passing down Saffron-hill—I was in plain clothes—Mr. Shaw beckoned to me—he was standing at his door—in consequence of what he said to me I went into the tap-room—I saw a number of Italians there fighting together, breaking the forms; they were all striking at one another; I think it was fighting—I got out as soon as I possibly could, and saw

Police-constable Elliott, G 137, on the opposite side of the way—he and I went first into the tap-room, and from there into the bagatelle-room—Elliott was in front of me rather; he threw one door open, and forced the second door open—there are two doors; it was the door leading into the bagatelle-room that he forced—Rebbeck made a charge against the prisoner—he said, "Oh, MR. Fawell, I am stabbed"—I said, "By whom?"—he pointed to the prisoner, and we then lost sight of him; I did not hear him say anything—I took the prisoner into custody for stabbing Rebbeck—I was not a ware that.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. I suppose you looked about for a knife? A. When I returned back from the police-station I did—I should say that was in half an hour—I found none—I first saw a knife when it was given up to Mr. Potter; I think it was the following night—I saw it given to Mr. Potter by the potman at Bordessa's public-house—Bordessa's is not more than a minute's walk from the Golden Anchor; it is very close—I was alongside of Mr. Potter when I saw the knife; I don't know whether that knife is here now—(looking at a knife produced by a constable)—I believe that to be the knife.

Q. At the time it was given to Potter was a statement made by the potboy who gave it him? A. There was something said; they were in conversation together; I was looking after other things; they had some conversation respecting the knife I have not the least doubt—at least it was about a knife; it might have been about the knife—I have not sworn this moment that it was about the knife; I said they had some conversation no doubt about the knife—I have not seen another knife—I did not see this knife produced on the first trial—I do not know that it was not produced; all the witnesses were ordered out of Court—I do not know that this knife was never shown during the progress of the prosecution, but was only produced on the prisoner's defence—I believe Mr. Potter kept possession of the knife after he received it from the potboy—I was looking after somebody else at that time; I was looking after other parties who were wanted for the same affair—I was looking after some persons who I had authority from Mr. Knox to look after—I was certainly looking after some parties in connexion with this murder; I was directed to do so by the Magistrate—Gregorio's name was not mentioned—I was looking after a person whom I now know to be Gregorio; I was looking after those that I was told were in the room from inquiries I had made—I was looking after Gregorio from information I had received and from inquiries I had made—anybody that I had received a description of, I should have taken into custody, if the parties from whom I had received information could identify them as being there, as accessories—I was directed by the Magistrate to take up all the accessories—all the parties that were there—several parties described Gregorio to me; I had not been told that he was the person who inflicted the wound—never; I swear that, not by anybody.

Q. This is what you said before: "I have made inquiries for another one, particularly one who is supposed to be away; I have not been able to find him; he is known by the name of Gregorio?" A. That was not on my first examination; I stated that at the trial; it is correct; it is true that I had been making inquiries—when Rebbeck said the prisoner was the man who stabbed him, the prisoner said nothing; not in my hearing; he was a very short distance off—he might have said something without my hearing it, the confusion was very great—there were about twenty of us in the room—I did not hear him say anything; I swear that—I asked Rebbeck by whom he

was stabbed, and he pointed—I certainly never heard the prisoner say anything—I was looking after myself, I can assure you—I never heard him say anything, and I have never said that I did—I took him into custody with the assistance of Elliott—I told him I took him for stabbing Rebbeck—that was when we got him into the street; not till then—he made an answer to me in Italian which I did not understand.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. You have stated that you did not know the name of Gregorio at the time you were first before the Magistrate? A. Yes—I mentioned the name when I was examined at the last trial; I had learnt his name before then—I had been searching and making inquiry respecting him—I went to all persons that would be likely to know, in my judgment—I inquired for him, and two others—I had also made inquiries respecting their names.

COURT. Q. When you say you were looking out for a person whose name you afterwards ascertained to be Gregorio, you were then aware, not only that Rebbeck had been stabbed, but that Harrington and Bannister had been stabbed, were you not? A. Yes; I was looking out for Gregorio, and some other persons.

JAMES RAFFELL . I am a gun-barrel maker, living at 28, Cross-street, Hatton-garden—I went into the bagatelle-room at the Golden Anchor between 6 and 7 on the evening of 26th December last; when I got in I saw the prisoner in the room, lying on the top of Harrington—the bagatelle-room-door leading into the passage was shut—I have known the prisoner by sight for some time, I can't say how long; there was no other Italian in the bagatelle-room—I saw King there, and saw him pull the prisoner off Har-rington—the police came in at that moment—when I went in, there was no other Italian in the room but the prisoner.

MARIA MELLERSHIP . I am the wife of Richard Mellership, who has been examined—I was with my husband in the Golden Anchor on 26th De-cember last—I heard a noise in the bar; I recollect Mrs. Shaw coming in, and saying something, and after that the door being opened, or forced open, and some persons trying to get in—I was standing by my husband, and the Italians tried to rush in at the door, and the English got up, and pushed them back—there was only one got in; that was the prisoner—my husband was then standing against the table where we had been sitting—my husband rushed up to where they were trying to get in, and I pulled him back by big coat—I did not see Rebbeck struck; I saw him after he was struck—that was after the prisoner was taken to the station—I saw Mrs. King pick up two hats; one was a light one, and the other a dark one—one was a big wide-awake; that was the dark one—it had rather a biggish brim; the other was not so large; but it was also a wide-awake—she picked them up by the table in the bagatelle-room—one was under the bagatelle-board—Harrington was standing against my husband, against the table where we had been sitting.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. You have not been examined at all before, I think? A. No; a gentleman came to me about this matter last Monday week—I have not talked this affair over a good deal with my husband—I dare say we have talked a little about it—the bagatelle-room door was pushed open from the passage—nobody opened it from the inside while I was there—I saw it pushed open—the Italians pushed it open—I saw it burst open.

MARIA KING (re-examined.) I picked up two hats in the bagatelle-room; I gave them to Mrs. Shaw.

RICHARD PATHORNE (Policeman, G 158.) On the evening of 26th December I was called to the Golden Anchor public-house, between 6 and 7 o'clock—I found Harrington lying there; I knew him—he was in the bar-parlour insensible; his bowels wore protruding—I got a cab, and took him to St. Bartholomew'S Hospital, and put him under the charge of Mr. Peer-less, the surgeon there—he had no hat or cap—I did not go back to nee if there was one—I did not think of it.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. I think this is the first time you have made your appearance in this case? A. Yes—I have not inquired since about Harrington's hat; I have hoard that two hats were delivered to Mrs. Shaw—she is here, outside—I heard that those hats were found in the room where the affray took place.

LEWIS WORMS . I live at 9, Brook's-market, Leather-lane, Holborn—my lather deals in building-materials, and has a place next to the Golden Anchor—the deceased, Michael Harrington, was a brother-in-law of mine—I gave him a hat some short time before Christmas last; it was a black wide-awake, one the same as this (producing one,) only wider in the brim—I saw him on the afternoon of 26th December, about 4 o'clock, and I saw him about 7, when he was taken out of the Golden Anchor—when I saw him about 4, be had the wideawake with him; he was wearing it—he had not got it when I saw him at 7—I was with him for three hours after he was taken to the hospital—I went back to the house and inquired for it, and they said it was not there—it has never been seen since by me or any of the family.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Who did you ask about it, when you wont back to the house? A. I asked if Michael Harrington's hat was seen there—I asked anybody who was there; I did not ask Mrs. Shaw—I asked some of the people that were in there.

GEORGE VERGE . I am six years old; I do not go to church or chapel—I live at home with my mother—I have not got any brothers or sinters—I remember finding a knife in the ruins against the arch; I should know it again if I were to see it (looking at a knife with a broken point produced by Baldock)—this is it; I brought it home to my mother—I showed the constable McMnhon, G 78, where I found it—it was the day after Boxing-day that I found it.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Before you showed the policeman where you found it, had you shown your mother? A. Yes—I am sure I pointed out the place to my mother; it was not a place where they kill cats—I hada little brother with me when I found it; he is about nine years old.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. Where is he? A. Playing—his name is Joe Verge; he is bigger than me—he saw where I found it; I took hold of it first—I went with my mother and showed her the place.

HARRIET VERGE . I am the mother of the last witness—he was six years old last October—he gave me a kuife; this is it—I gave it to the policeconstable McMahon, after I had it in the cupboard for Home time—my little boy gave it to me on 27th December, about ten in the morning—he showed me the place where he found it, yesterday; I did not see it before he pointed out the place yesterday—he told me that he was walking on a piece of wood, and it lay down by the wood on the ground—I know the place perfectly well; I should say it won between fifty and sixty yards from the hack window of the Golden Anchor—he pointed with his foot where he found it.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. When did you give up the knife to McMabon? A. The same day as the boy found it—Mcmahon came to me; he was in private clothes—I learnt afterwards that he was a

constable—I have not been examined until now—I don't know that Mr. Negretti found me out—I never spoke to him; I don't know him—my biggest boy is, I expect, in Hatton-garden; I loft him to stay there—his name is Joe—it was not the big boy that pointed out where the knife was found, it was the little follow—I did not point out to anybody the place the child pointed out to me; I have not teen any one about it—a gentleman went with me at the same time; I don't know his name.

COURT. Q. How came you to give the knife up to McMahon; did he apply to you for it, or did you volunteer to give it to him? A. He asked mo for it—my children have found knives there before—I thought it would have done for my husband—a woman first came to ask me for it, and I said I wad not going to give it to anybody, and then the policeman came and demanded it, and I gave it to him.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. In what state was the blade of the knife when the child gave it to you? A. It had a yellow, mattery substance on the edge of it—the ruins where it was found is a resort for all sorts of filth and of course I thought the knife belonged to tome of the filthy people—there is a regular trade of catskinning going on there—I saw some lying there yesterday, skinned, and just the tail left—the knife looked as if it had been used for something of that kind, and I thought it would poison the boy; that was why I tok it from him.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. What do you mean by "something of that kind?" A. Either cleaning guts, or something of that sort—there was nothing else to attract my attention to the knife, only the point being broken, and there were two letters on the handle.

COURT. Q. Did you wash the knife? A. No, I never touched it—I asked the boy how he found it, shut or open, and he said, "Shut"—I gave it up in the same state as be brought it in—it was quite dry—there was a little mite of blood on the top of it, more at the back, and another right on the edge of the knife—there is no mark there now; it is worn out.

JOHN MCMAHON (Policeman, G 78). I received this knife from Mrs. Verge about 1 o'clock on the afternoon of 27th December—I handed it to Sergeant Baldock, at the Police-court, about five or ten minutes afterwards, the same day—I went with the little boy Verge, and be pointed out where he found the knife—he said that was the exact place, and I put a stone there to mark it—I was there when Mr. Caiger measured this morning; he measured from the very spot I showed him.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. When do you say you put the stone? A. When the boy showed me the spot, that was in the afternoon, after I came from the Police-court, on 27th—I put an old pavingstone there, which was amongst the ruins—I was on duty there every day, and could see it—I recognised the spot; I am always on duty there, and I now it well, and should have done so if I had never put any mark at all—the knife had more blood on it when it was given to me than it has at present; not a good deal, but a reasonable share, for the size of the knife, more than there is at present; it was on the blade, not on the point—there was no matter on it when I saw it; I never heard there was any, nothing but blood—I can't say whether it was produced for the prosecution on the first trial—I was not a witness—I gave it up to Sergeant Baldock, and he gave it to Mr. Potter in my presence.

MR. GIIFFARD. Q. Did you point out to Mr. Caigor the same place that the little boy had pointed out to you? A. The identical spot.

MR. CAIGER (re-examined.) I measured by stricles this morning the

distance from the spot pointed out to mo by McMahon, to the back part of the Golden Anchor; it was about twenty-one or twenty-two yards—I could not take it quite in a direct line, because there were some boards put on end.

COURT. Q. You measured from the atone, to what part of the Golden Anchor? A. To the window, the nearest edge of it; it lies in an oblique direction, to the right towards Castle-street. Adjourned.

Thursday, April 13th, 1865.

GEORGE BALDOCK (Police-sergeant.) I was in charge of the Clerkenwell Police-station on the night of 26th December last—the prisoner was brought to that station that night by constables Fawell and Elliott—he was charged by Fawell with stabbing a man on Saffron-hill—I told him he was charged with stabbing a man on Saffron-hill, that he would be detained at the station until I had ascertained if the man was dead; if dead, he would be charged with wilful murder—I asked him if he understood English—he said, "Yes"—I noticed that hisright hand was covered with blood—I pointed it out to him—he said, "I only protected myself"—he said nothing more on that occasion—I searched him, and found in his right-hand pocket an old knife—it did not appear to have been used during the day—this is the knife (produed)—next day I told him he would be charged with the wilful mur-der of Michael Harrington, at the Golden Anchor, Great Saffron-hill, by cutting him in the belly with a knife (I had heard of his death that morning)—he said, "I never used a knife."

ELIZA HARRIET SHAW . I am the wife of the landlord of the Golden Anchor—on the night of 26th December, I was serving in the bar about 6 o'clock, or from that to 7; we were very busy—I saw Gregorio Mogni there; I did not see him come in—he was standing at the gate leading from the bar to the tap-room—that is what has been called the half-door—he was on the tap-room side of that door—it was shut—he was leaning over it—I saw him slap my husband's face—he then went back again into the tap-room—my husband was at the bar, and he went towards the door to call the police, the street-door leading into Castle-street—I remained in the bar still serving—I remember a disturbance taking place at the door of the bagatelle-room; I did not see it, but I heard the noise—I had seen the deceased man Harrington before that; it might be ten minutes before, I cannot say to a few minutes; I should think it was that, more or less—he was at the halfdoor leading to the tap-room then, just going through it—it was open—he was near the tap-room door; the door was pushed open then—I cannot say that I saw where Harrington came from; he came from the bar to the half-door—I know that, because he came behind me as I was behind the bar—I could not see whether he came from the front of the bar or from the bagatelle-room, because my hack was towards the door, but it was quite evident that he came through the door to get to the halfgate—I am not supposing anything, because I am sure he came through the bar—I saw him in the bar before he pushed the halfdoor open, and saw him go through there—I did not see whether he came from the front of the bar or the bagatelle-room; I did not see him till he passed through the door, but he must have come by the bar or the bagatelle-room—when he got to the halfdoor he went through it towards the tap-room door, and Gregorio took hold of him and rose his hand as if to strike him—by some means or other Harrington was got away from Gregorio, I cannot explain how; ho was got away by some one and taken into the bagatelle-room—he was drawn through the bar again, not through the tap-room and the bagatelle-room and the passage, but through

the bar, and brought back again into the bagatelle-room—that was after my husband's face had been slapped—I saw no more of the transaction whatever—I remember two hats being handed to me at a later period of the evening; I cannot describe what hats they were—all I can say is that they were two round hats, what we term billy-cocksy or wide-awakes—I do not know who gave them to me—I threw them over the bar to Gregorio and his brother; they took them away.

COURT. Q. Do you know what they call Gregorio's brother? A. They call him John.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. What became of those two hats? A. Gregorio and his brother took them away directly I threw them over the bar—they did not say whether they were theirs or anybody else's, they took them—they came and said something about some hats, Gregorio did—he said, "Give me my hat, "or something—he was in company with his brother—I told him I did not know anything about it.

Q. Did you hear anybody talk about killing six Englishmen? A. There was some talking at the bar, but I really cannot say that I heard it, I was so busy I did not pay attention to what was said—I believe Gregorio was there at the time, but I cannot say—I do not know whether Gregorio made use of that expression.

THOMAS AMBROSE POTTER (Police-Inspector G.) In consequence of information I received I conveyed the prisoner to St. Bartholomew's hospital on the evening in question about seven o'clock, Fawell, Elliott and Sergeant Baldock went with me—on arriving there I found Harrington in bed—I had spoken to the doctors Mr. Peerless and another, and a number of other persons—I took the prisoner to Harrington's bed-side—there were a number of other persons there, I should think there were a dozen, including the officers—I placed them round the bed—Fawell was the only officer there in plain clothes—both doctors were present—I spoke to the deceased and said, "Harrington, listen to me, the doctor who is present informs me that you have but a short time to live"—he made a sigh and went off into a doze; I then roused him gain—I took hold of his hand and his head and said, "You bad better listen to me"—he then said, "; If I am to die, God have mercy upon me"—I told him I wanted him to look round the bed to see if there was any one there who he knew; I said, "Tell me where you are hurt?"—he said, "In my belly, untie my belly"—it was bandaged up; a sheet or cloth of some sort sort was tied round him—I then asked him again to look round the bed and he did so—the persons at that time were standing two deep round the bed, I mean one behind the other—he looked round the bed, first looking at the doctors who were standing on the opposite side of the bed to myself, till he came to the prisoner, who was standing three persons from me, nearer the foot of the bed—he took his hand from mine, put out his right hand, pointed to the prisoner and said, "That is the man who did it, him with the black moustache"—he said "black" or "dark"—I am not positive which, but I believe he said "black"—he also said, "God have mercy upon him, "or "God forgive him, "I cannot bo positive which—I then held a pen in my hand to Harrington and asked him to sign what he had stated; Sergeant Baldock had written it down; it was read over to him; I asked him to sign it and ho declined—he said, "No, "and replied, "God have mercy upon him "several times—he did not sign the paper—that was all he said, I think, as far as ray recollection carries me—I said to the prisoner, "Do you understand what is said?" he replied in English, "I do not understand English writing"—I had the paper in my hand at the time, I had taken it

from Baldock—I then said, "Harrington says you were the man that did It"—he said nothing—I then conveyed him back to the station, and he was there charged with stabbing Rebbeck—this (produced) is the paper that was taken to the Royal Free Hospital to Rebbeck's bedside—that is not the paper I have been speaking of.

COURT. Q. What did you do with the paper that Baldock wrote? A. They were both taken to the police-court and only one could be found, we had some difficulty in finding this—it was produced at the police-court.

MR. BEASLEY. Q. When did you last see that paper or hear anything about it? A. On the second examination at the police-court; it was shown to the magistrate, but not taken in evidence, as the officers were present who heard the statement, and the doctors; they said it was not required—I produced it at the police-court and this paper also; they were left there—I have since made inquiries for both papers and have only been able to get this one.

COURT. Q. In whose hands did you last see it? A. Lying on the desk in front of the magistrate, on the solicitor's desk, where the professional gentlemen sit—they were taken from me and handed to the gentleman who was then prosecuting, Mr. Wakeling.

MR. BEASLEY. Q. You went to the Royal Free Hospital and went to the bedside of Rebbeck there? A. Yes; this was written down before I arrived there, it was read over in my presence—when I first arrived there the prisoner was not there—I immediately sent for him when I was told Rebbeck was dying, and when the prisoner was there at the bedside I asked Dr. Hill whether it was true that Rebbeck was not likely to live, he said "Yes, he is dangerously bad,"—Rebbeck was in bed, I was standing by his bedside—I then asked the sergeant for the statement which he had written down from Rebbeck and asked him to read it over—it was written before, and afterwards read over in the prisoner's presence by Baldock—I asked Rebbeck if it was true, he said, "Yes."

GEORGE BALDOCK (re-examined). I was present by Rebbeck's bed-side and read the paper over to him—I read over correctly what was in the paper—Rebbeck said that it was quite correct and quite true, Mr. Potter and Fawell signed the paper and Rebbeck made his mark—the prisoner made no remark—I read it over distinctly to the prisoner—I read it over both to Rebbeck and the prisoner, they were both present—(Read: "26th December, 1864. Statement made by Alfred Rebbeck—"My name is Alfred Rebbeck, I reside at 59, Great Saffron-hill—I am potman—I am twenty-two years old—about seven o'clock this evening there was a disturbance at the Golden Anchor, Great Saffron-hill—I went into the room to try to quell it. An Italian was in the room. That man stabbed me. I immediately struck him with a stick. I afterwards gave the man in custody of policeman, 455 A., Fawell. This statement is true; I know I am dying. The man that stabbed me is now present; that is the man.")

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE to THOMAS AMBROSE POTTER. Q. When was that drawn up? A. On the evening of the 26th, the night of the occurrence, at the hospital—I was not present when it was written.

GEORGE BALDOCK Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Where was that drawn up? A. At the Free hospital—I believe Mr. Marriott the surgeon was present, and Fawell and the prisoner—Rebbeck pointed the prisoner out as the man—I think there was a nurse or two also, but I cannot speak positively as to who the other persons were—Rebbeck was in bed

—this paper is my writing; it was drawn up from Rebbeck's statement as he stated it—the prisoner was present when it was written, because it is put down on the paper that Rebbeck pointed the prisoner out and said, "That is the man"—I could not say whether Potter was there when it was written, I am not clear upon that—I know the prisoner was there, I am positive as to that, he heard all that Rebbeck said which I took down, I presume he did—I do not say that he did, he was standing near—he was fetched there to see if Rebbeck could identify him as the person who stabbed him; he was at the foot of the bed—he was not there before Potter brought him—I think Elliott and Fawell fetched him—Fawell was present when that statement was written down, and the prisoner—I know he was there when I wrote it down—he was there to see if Rebbeck could identify him; he was in the custody of Fawell and Elliott—I was a sergeant at that time, the other officers would do anything I told them—I took care that the prisoner should be near enough to hear—I am not sure that he did hear, but I think he did—he was present while the answers were given to my questions—he was list ening to my questioning Rebbeck and to Rebbeck's statement—he would we me write it down at the time—I thought it was best to read it over; because it was not given all at once—Rebbeck was very bad and there were short intervals elapsed—after I had taken down the whole of it I read it over, the whole of it, to see that there was no mistake—I believe Mr. Potter was there at the time I read it over—I cannot tell the exact time at which Potter came, but I saw him there with the surgeon and the nurse—it is not true that the paper had been written and that then the prisoner was sent for—he was present at the time I wrote the paper—he was not sent for lifter it had been written; that cannot be true; it is not true—I will undertake to swear that the prisoner was present at the time I wrote that paper—I can make no mistake about it at all, it is not a fact that he was sent for after it was written.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. At what time did you go to the Royal Free Hospital? A. I should Bay about a quarter to 8, or between half-past 7 and 8 in the evening; they sent for me—at that time the prisoner was in custody; I did not take him there—Fawell and Elliott, I believe, were the two constables that fetched him, I should say between half or three quarters of an hour alter, Mr. Hill was very busy at the time, and he could not attend; I should say it was quite that time—I do not know of my own knowledge who sent for the prisoner—I did not send for him—I believe he was sent for to see if any one could identify him—I do not know that of my own knowledge—I think I saw Inspector Potter at the time I was going across to the ward with Mr. Hill, which was between 8 and 9 o'clock, or he came in directly afterwards, I will not be quite positive, but I know he did not come in till sometime after I was there—Inspector Potter, when he arrived, would have authority to send for the prisoner—I think I went across to the bed-side of Rebbeck with Mr. Hill, but I think Mr. Hill left afterwards—I believe Mr. Marriott remained—at the time I took that statement, Polioni was present; I believe Mr. Marriott was present too—he is one of the surgeons of the Hospital.

COURT. Q. You say you did not get all that statement at once? A. No; it occupied some time—I think I put some questions to Rebbeck; I think I asked him what he was, and where he lived—I know I asked him several questions—I think it was all in answer to questions put by me; I will not be quite positive, but I think it was—I should think from the time I went into the ward until I came out, was about half an hour—I might say that a

quarter of an hour elapsed from my beginning to question him, until he completed his statement.

THOMAS AMBROSE POTTER (continued.) I should think it was about half-past 8 when I got to the Royal Free Hospital; I am not certain, it might be before that—Baldock was there when I got there, and several other officers—I should think Pelizzioni was there ten minutes or a quarter of an hour after—I sent for him immediately I heard from the doctor that Rebbeck was likely to die—I heard that as soon as I got there—Pelizzioni was at the police-station in Bagnigge Well's-road—that is about seven or ten minutes' walk from the Royal Free Hospital—Fawell was one of the officers I sent for him—he was in plain clothes—I remember sending him—the other one I do not remember, but he was in uniform whoever he was—I first saw Pelizzioni at the foot of the bed—the officers were also there when I got there, Fawell and I believe Baldock, and the two doctors, and several others—after I had gone to the hospital, and had sent for Pelizzioni, I went away, and searched for Rebbeck's clothes, seeing that he was naked in bed—that was after I had sent for Pelizzioni, and before he came—I went into Gray's Inn-road where I was told they were—I might be absent about twenty minutes—it was when I came back that I found the officers and the prisoner at the foot of Rebbeck's bed—I sent for a Magistrate during that period, and I went and found an officer to go.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Before you sent for Pelizzioni had you seen that written statement. A. No—I was away looking for the clothes, about twenty minutes I should think, not more—I first saw that written statement when I saw the prisoner and the officers round Rebbeck'8 bed when I returned—I did not hear the prisoner make any statement before it was read—I had not spoken to him, and had never seen him before. When Harrington spoke of the man who had wounded him, he said it was either the man with the black or dark moustache, I am not positive which—my opinion is that he said black, but I should not like to to be certain whether he said dark or black—i have not always stated that he said black; I think he did, but I will not be positive—I know Gregorio now; I do not know whether he wore a moustache—I saw him with a moustache when he came to the police-station, but I was told he had not a moustache when the offence was committed—several persons on Saffron-hill told me so—I saw him at the station-house with a moustache, when he was there with Mr. Negretti—I have not got the date; it was not uutil after the conviction of the prisoner—I should think it was about a week or a fortnight after the first trial—it was a dark moustache—I did not lose the paper that I produced to Harrington, I gave it to the solicitor, and the clerk took it—I do not know who employed the solicitor; I swear that—I have heard, but I do not know of my own knowledge—I heard that Mr. Shaw the Magistrate, and he handed them to the clerk, and he laid them on the table as being of no value—Sergeant Baldock had drawn out that paper—he wrote it down—I have stated to-day that when Harrington said it was the man with the dark or black moustache, the prisoner said nothing—he said nothing until he said, "I do not understand English writing"—he never opened his mouth to my knowledge—I never heard him speak before that—he uttered no ejaculation, not the slightest—he appeared very much hurt, as far as that he hung down his head, and appeared to feel his position, and never looked up—he said nothing, and uttered no ejaculation, I am quite sure about that.

Q. Just listen to this, "The prisoner said, 'I do not understand English writing;' I said what Harrington has said is, 'You did it,' the prisoner said, 'Oh.' "A. Yes, that is quite right; I said that he said nothing until he said he did not understand English writing—he did say, "Oh"—I did not remember that—I did not think of it; I forgot it—I do not know that there were any other Italians at the bed-side of Harrington—I was the officer of the highest rank there—I managed the affair on that occasion—I did not let in anybody who liked—I prevented no person from coming—I asked several to do so; I cannot say whether any other Italians were present, in my opinion there was not, but I don't know, there were four other persons in the room with moustaches, two strangers who I asked to come in, and I believe both the surgeons had a moustache—I found the two strangers at the entrance-door—they were quite strangers to me—when I take persons to be identified, I go into the street and ask some persons whether they have any objection to be placed with others, for the purpose of identifying the prisoner—I did not watch for a couple of persons with a moustache—there was a crowd of persons standing at the door, I took in three, two with moustaches; I cannot say who they were—I believe there were five with moustaches in the room—there was an officer belonging to the building with a moustache on—I do not know the name of that other person—I received this knife, with the broken point, I believe, from one of the officers—it might have been Baldock, I believe it was.

Q. I believe during the former investigation you never produced the knife at all, until it happened to be called for by the defence? A. Yes; I did produce it on the part of the prosecution—I left it in the hands of the gentlemen who were prosecuting—I am speaking of this knife (the broken one)—the knives were there—that knife was produced on the part of the prosecution on the prisoner's first trial—it was in Court—it was produced to the Jury—I saw it in the hands of the Judge—I have been an officer about seventeen years—during that time I have been a witness in some hundreds of cases—I quite know what a prosecution means—I could not say whether the knife was produced on the part of the prosecution—I know the knives were here in Court; it was produced during the case for the prosecution—I am quite sure of that.

COURT. Q. You are not asked whether it was in Court but whether it was produced? A. Well, I could not say as to that; I don't think it was.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. You know it was not, do you not? A. No; I am not sure—I was not in Court all the time of the prosecution—I was out of Court, and the knives were in Court, so I can't say—the knife was not in my pocket, it was in Court; I can't tell with whom—I sent it in by Sergeant Baldock—I received it when the knives were called for, and I received it again of Baldock—they were handed up to the Judge—they were brought here in the usual way if required, the same as other property—I don't say that the knife came out of Baldock's pocket; it came out of his possession—I can't say that it was not produced, till the case for the defence was going on—I can't say that I was in Court when it was first produced—I handed it up to the Judge—I myself produced it in Court; it was given to me and I handed it up to the Judge—I handed it up at the time it was given to me, during the examination of Cowland, one of the witnesses—I remember Cowland being examined as one of the witnesses for the prisoner—it was during his examination that the knife was produced—I took it off the table, I remember now—I can't say whether that was the first time the knife had been produced publicly—it was at the police-court, and at the

commencement of the trial I sent the knives into Court—I was outside—I can't say when the knife got on the table—I took it from the table—I believe I brought it down to the Court; I know I did—I brought the two knives to the Court, and at the commencement of the trial I sent them into the Court—I delivered up both the knives when I was called upon to do so—I did not bring this knife down to the Court, only that one—Cowland said that was not the knife that he gave me—I said it was—I sent the knives into Court before I gave my evidence; before the case commenced, in the morning, by one of the officers—I could not give his name—I don't recollect saying at the trial that the knife, with the broken point, had been found just outside the window—I will not swear I did not, but I don't remember those words—I did not know at that time where it had been found, only what I had been told—I sent the officer to find the person who found the knife, when I heard that a knife had been found, and he came to the Police-court to give that evidence—I believe that officer, McMahon, was called before the Magistrate; he was there, whether he was called or not I don't remember—I don't think Mrs. Verge, or either of her children, were called upon any occasion until to-day—I know they were not at the Police-court, because I was told they were of no use, as we could not trace the owner of the knife—I had been told that the knife was found near the house, but I knew no more than what I was told about it—I cannot say whether this knife (the long one) was mentioned in the course of the prosecution—I can't say that it was not—I know I handed them both up to the Judge—I don't know that that was the first time they were produced—I received that knife from the potman of the Three Tuns, Cowland, I think, I have heard his name is, since—I got it from him on the night of the occurrence, the 26th—I brought that knife to the Court with me—I was told where it was found—I pursued the inquiry on the subject of that knife—I was told it had been fouud in the urinal at the Three Tuns—I asked the person when it was given to me, whether he knew who put it there, and he said "No"—I do not take for granted everything that is said to me; very little—I made inquiry as to who was the owner of the knife—I did not hear any name mentioned as being the owner of it—I did not hear any person described; I swear that; not with reference to the knife—I never heard to whom it was supposed to belong; I don't say I never did; I say at the time I was pursuing the inquiry—I knew it at the time of the first trial—I heard it at the Police-court—I heard a tale about the knife, and I heard a name mentioned in relation to it.

Q. Did you in point of fact ever see that knife or call attention to it, during the progress of the prosecution? A. Yes, here in this Court—I make no mistake if I can help it—I do not say I produced it during the case for the prosecution—I did not call the attention of the Court or the Jury to it, during the progress of the case for the prosecution—I was not in Court, only when I was examined—the knives were lying on the table—I did not mention either of the two knives in my examination that I remember—I don't think I did; I don't believe I did; I should not like to be positive—I saw the knives all the time lying on the table—I had heard that the knife belonged to Gregorio; I heard that statement made at the Police-court—I did hear it before the first trial; before the second trial I did—I did not hear that it belonged to Gregorio, who was tried; I heard that it belonged to his brother John—I had heard of the knife when Pelizzioni was tried—I brought it to the Court—I had not then heard that it belonged to Gregorio, I had heard it belonged to his brother; that was

at the time of the first trial—I had been looking for him before that, and also the other; I was looking for three Italians—I did hear before the first trial that the knife belonged to one of the Mogni's—I had not heard that it was delivered up by one of them, within a very few minutes after the murder bad been committed, or the day after—I heard that it was found in the urinal—I heard nothing else about it.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. Do you remember when this case was first taken up by the Treasury? A. Yes—I do not think it was above a week before the first trial of Pelizzioni; it was something like that—I gave my statement to the Solicitor to the Treasury—he was aware of the existence of both the knives which I had in my possession, and how I found them—I produced them to him—when I came to the Court on the morning of Pelizzioni's trial I myself brought those two knives here, and sent them into Court by a constable, whose name I do not remember—I think I was the last witness called for the prosecution; or the last but one—I was out of Court during the time of the trial—I had nothing to do with the production or non-production of the knives at that trial—when I came into Court as a witness I saw the two knives lying on the table—I had heard that this knife belonged to Gregorio's brother, at the time I was trying to find three Italians—I was not able to find John at that time; I found out where he had been working and had the place watched, but was not able to find him—I did not conceal from anybody the fact of my having got those knives, or where I got them; quite the reverse; I mentioned the fact of having found them—I got the persons, who I took to Harrington's bedside, from the entrance to the hospital, there was a crowd of persons there, and I asked two or three of them to come in; there were several others besides—Harrington was in a separate bed, but there were several beds in the ward—before I admitted these persons into the ward I left the prisoner and the others outside, and went and spoke to the doctor's to as certain whether Harrington was sensible or not—I knew none of the persons that I brought in, and none of the others except the constables and the doctors, and the brother-in-law of Harrington, Worms, and I did not know him at that time.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Did you know about two hats having been delivered up by Mrs. Shaw? A. I did after the trial; I did not know it before—I heard of two hats being lost by the deceased and Rebbeck—I heard that before the trial—I could not be positive whether I mentioned it at the trial; I do not think I did; I do not remember—I did not make inquiry of Mr. or Mrs. Shaw as to whether any hats had been found—I do net know whether I made any inquiries of Mrs. Shaw; I forget if I did—I think I spoke to her about it some days after the occurrence—I believe I asked her where she was, and she told me she was in the bar—I asked her several questions, and from that I should have expected to bare heard all she knew—I did not ask her whether she knew anything about the hats; I had not heard about them then—I knew there were two hats lost, but I made no inquiries about them.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. Had your attention been called at all until the first trial to the fact of there being anything of importance in the loss of the hats? A. No; if there had been I should have made inquiry—since I have known about the hats I have endeavoured to trace them, but cannot—that is since the last trial.

The deposition of Fawell before the Magistrate, 27th December, was put in by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE, and read.


the Magistrate, "In going from the tap-room I saw Alfred Rebbeck following the prisoner into the bagatelle-room; the prisoner was going into the room by himself?" A. Yes; that is the fact—Rebbeck said, "Mr. Fawell, I am stabbed/"and pointed a man out to me, as I supposed, the prisoner—it is true that Rebbeck said he was stabbed, pointing to a particular man—I did not see Rebbeck follow the prisoner into the bagatelle-room—I and Elliott followed in—it is not true that I saw Rebbeck following the prisoner into the bagatelle-room—Rebbeck told me he had been stabbed, and we followed through—that statement is not correct—the deposition was read over to me at the Police-court, but not read as it is—Rebbeck told me that he was stabbed; that was my reason for following the prisoner—this is my signature to the deposition—it was made on 27th December, the day after the occurrence—I believe that is the evidence I gave, but I had been spoken to by Rebbeck then, and told that he had been stabbed—there was a man, I believed to be the prisoner, we lost sight of him.

COURT. Q. Was he going into the room by himself? A. A man wag going into the room, I never saw his face; Rebbeck was in a following position and we followed after him.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. You swore before the magistrate that it was the prisoner that was going in to the room and Rebbeck following him? A. That was the only man I found in the bagatelle-room; I should suppose it was the prisoner; of course I swore that it was, because he was the only man I found there; nobody could have gone in but him, no Italian; all the others were English as far as I know, Harrington was Irish—I followed Elliott immediately into the room; we both pushed to get in together, when I got in the prisoner was being pulled off the body of Harrington—the prisoner was bleeding from the head, not a great deal, he was bleeding slightly from the forehead—there was only one wound I should say. (The deposition of the witness before the Coroner was also put in and read, stating, "I saw Seraphini rush from the tap-room into the bagatelle-room: we got into the bagatelle-room and found the prisoner Seraphini held by William King")

MR. GIFFARD. Q. You have spoken of being in the tap-room twice? A. Yes; I went in and then went out again to look for another constable—it was on the second occasion that I went in that I saw a man, I suppose to be the prisoner, rushing into the bagatelle-room; Elliott was with me at time—was then about a yard from the tap-room; Elliott was with me at the bagatelle-room, the first doors—I might be very near the centre of the tap-room when Rebbeck spoke to me—I did not see the bagatelle-room door open when I was in that position, the tap-room door bad closed then, it was impossible to see then; we could not see the bagatelle-room door—Elliott broke open the door in order to get in—that door was not open between the time I entered the tap-room the second time with Elliott and the time when he broke it open—when I got back again with Elliott I saw Rebbeck standing close to the door, I should think within a foot, the tap-room, with his hand to his side—he was shut out of the bagatelle-room then.

Q. What did you mean by saying before the magistrate, "I saw Rebbeck following the prisoner into the bagatelle-room?" A. That was from the tap-room door, when we went through the two doors; I do not mean after we broke the door open; previous to that; Rebbeck told me he had been stabbed—he was going into the bagatelle-room as I stated, following the prisoner as I supposed—when he stated that he had been stabbed we went in at one door and pushed the other door open—Rebbeck stood in the tap-room

by my side—I did state before the magistrate that I saw Rebbeck following the prisoner into the bagatelle-room; he pointed a man out; a man was pointed out to me who I believe to be the prisoner.

COURT. Q. You are supposed to have said, (if you made any mistake correct it), that when you got in the tap-room, the tap-room door was closed, and further that the bagatelle-room door was not open as far as you know till Elliott broke it open? A. Yes, when I went in after I had got the assistance of Elliott I met Rebbeck in the tap-room, he said, "Mr. Fawell, I am stabbed"—I said, "By whom?"—he said, "By that man"—the tap-room door was opened, it was immediately closed again, we rushed through and burst the other door open and when we got in we found the prisoner in the custody of King and Mellership.

Q. At the time Rebbeck said he was stabbed, where was the prisoner? A. I suppose he was the one that pulled the door open, I suppose it to be him—there was a man there, I do not know whether it was the prisoner or not; I believe it was—Rebbeck followed him.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. But as I understand you the door opening from the bagatelle-room was not open till Elliott broke it open? A. No, I should judge not—I went from the tap-room into the bagatelle-room by pulling one door and pushing the other—I cannot tell whether Anybody opened it from the time the first door was closed, because we had to pull it open again to get the other door open; Elliott was in some part of the tap-room at the time; the man was pointed out to me, he must have been a very short distance from me; I cannot say whether he was in front or behind, we were all in confusion; there were about twenty people in the tap-room at the time.

COURT. Q. Are you quite sure that Elliott did force open the door? A. Yes; I followed clone upon him, and when I got into the room I saw the prisoner—I cannot say that anybody went through the door, although the door was partly open—I am quite sure that Elliott did open the door—I immediately followed him into the room and saw the prisoner held by Mr. King and Mellership.

Q. Had you seen the prisoner before that? A. There were so many in there—I do not know whether I saw the prisoner—he was the only man I saw in the room when he was pointed out—I saw several English people in the bagatelle-room besides the prisoner—I did not see Rebbeck there—I saw Bannister, Stanley, and several of the witnesses who have been examined.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. You came in I suppose from the Saffron-hill entrance? A. Yes—I went at once to the door; there was nothing to delay my passage from the tap-room door to the bagatelle-room, more than getting through the squabble—there were a great number of Italians—it did not take Elliott an instant to break open the door—when I got in I found the prisoner in a stooping position in the hands of Mellership and King—I cannot say whether I had seen him before that or not.

COURT. Q. Had you before that seen Rebbeck following any man into the room? A. He pointed a man out and said that he had been stabbed, that was in the tap-room, before we got into the bagatelle-room at all—he pointed to a man who was standing close to the door, in the tap-room; not in the passage, but in the tap-room—I do not know what became of that—I do not know whether it was the same man or not—he pointed out a man in the tap-room and that man was standing there.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. Why not take that man in custody at once? A. I could

not get hold of him, there was such a fight in the room that it was impossible—I do not know what became of him—I did not see Rebbeck go into the bagatelle-room—when I got into the bagatelle-room I found the prisoner being held by two parties—it was in the tap-room that Rebbeck told me he had been stabbed, by the swing-door that comes from the bar—he pointed out one of the men that was there—I could hardly tell which one he meant, there was so many—he was nearest the door and I judged that was the one he meant—he was close to the door through which he went—I did not notice him at the time, for I was looking after myself as well as looking after him—I was very near the middle of the room when Rebbeck spoke to me about a yard or a yard and half from him—there were several persons between me and him—he was a little way in the tap-room from the half-door, I should think about a foot or a foot and a half from the swing-door leading to the bar—the swing-door was open at that time—I do not remember seeing Rebbeck afterwards—I did not see him move—he moved in the tap-room, but I do not remember seeing him after we got into the bagatelle-room—he did move in the tap-room, he was putting his hand to his side in pain—I do not know what became of him then, he altered his position in the room; the pain caused him to do that I believe—the last place I saw him at before I went into the bagatelle-room was standing near the bagatelle-room door, behind me—he had moved then, he had got to the tap-room door—he moved from where I first saw him and got near the bagatelle-room, that was the last time I saw him—the last place I saw him at was close to the tap-room door, leading to the bagatelle-room—before that I saw him close to the swing-door, holding his hand to his side—it might not be much more than a minute between my seeing him there and seeing him at the tap-room door—I saw him move from the one place to the other—I do not recollect that he spoke to me again when he got nearer me.

Q. Listen to what you said before the Magistrate, and see if you can explain it—"In going from the tap-room I saw Alfred Rebbeck following the prisoner into the bagatelle-room; the prisoner was going into the room by himself" A. That is correct—I suppose two or three minutes elapsed after I entered the tap-room with Elliott, before I got into the bagatelle-room; not more than two or three minutes, at the very outside, elapsed between Rebbeck telling me he had been stabbed and my taking the prisoner into custody—we got into the bagatelle-room as soon as we possibly could.

ALFRED REBBECK (re-examined). I have been in Court during the time the last witness has been in the box—I was in the bagatelle-room at the time I told Fawell I had been stabbed—I went to the tap-room and Fawell was coming through the tap-room, but I was in the bagatelle-room—I was stabbed in the bagatelle-room—I did not go into any other room after that—I was not in the tap-room after I was stabbed; I am quite sure of that—I do not remember seeing my master call Fawell before I was stabbed—I first saw Fawell that night coming into the bagatelle-room with Elliott—I was in the bagatelle-room at that time—at the time I told Fawell I had been stabbed, the prisoner was in the hands of Mr. King—I saw Elliott and Fawell come into the bagatelle-room; I believe Elliott came in first.

COURT to RICHARD FAWELL. Q. Just look at the witness in the box, do you know him? A. Yes; I have known him for years—that is the person that told me he had been stabbed.

WILLIAM ELLIOTT (re-examined). I remember going into the bagatelle-room and breaking in the door—I could not say that I saw Rebbeck; I cannot say I knew him before—I did not see him to

know him till I saw him at the hospital—when I entered the bagatelle-room door Mrs. King pointed to the prisoner, and said the Italian had knocked her down—I did not hear any other charge made against him until be came outside—the door of the bagatelle-room was open when I entered the tap-room, and it was closed before I could get up to it—when I got into the tap-room I saw the fight going on, in the passage between the bagatelle-room and the tap-room—I saw some sticks; they were striking at each other—the time that elapsed between my seeing the sticks and forcing the bagatelle-room door open was just as short a time as it would take me to get to the door—I then put my shoulder to the door.

JOHN VALUE HILLS . I am resident medical officer at the Royal Free Hospital, Gray's-inn-road—I recollect Rebbeck being brought there—he was very weak, and had lost a very farge quantity of blood; he was in great danger—he was suffering from a wound in the side; it was what we call a punctured wound, between the eighth and ninth ribs, three-quarters of to inch long, and half an inch in extent the other way—it was a rectangular wound; it was three inches in depth, extending into the lungs—its direction was upwards and inwards—he was bleeding from an artery, which was severed beneath the ribs—I had him removed into the ward—he had no other injury upon him that I perceived—I think there was a little abrasion on the knee, but nothing of any importance—inflammation of the lungs followed—there was no part of the weapon that inflicted the injury left in the wound.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Look at that sharper knife, the one with a point to it; is that the kind of knife that would infiict such a wound? A. Yes, I should think that would be a knife likely to produce such a wound—I should imagine if the parties met face to face the wound would be produced by the left hand—Rebbeck had been drinking, but he was not intoxicated—he gave his evidence in a very straightforward manner—he had been drinking, that is certain; he smelt strongly of spirits.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. Why do you say the wound was inflicted with the left hand, if the parties were facing each other? A. It was a little towards the right side, between the eighth and ninth ribs—if it had been done with the right hand they could hardly have met face to face—it might have been done sideways; it would depend upon how the weapon was held.

Q. If the weapon was held in the right hand, and a back-handed blow was struck, would not there have been precisely the same effect as a forward blow with the left hand? A. I think it would be hardly done so, considering the position of the wound—it extended towards the middle of the body—the wound was upwards and inwards, towards the middle line of the body—it was inside the body that the wound was upwards, it inclined towards the left, from the point to the end—it was a sort of wound that would be inflicted by a back-handed blow, used dagger-ways if done sideways—I judge that the wound was produced by a knife with a single edge, and this knife appears to have a single edge, except at the point—the wound was three-quarters of an inch long one way and half an inch from the angle; the vertical wound was smaller than the oblique one—I could not form any opinion as to the shape of it. but it appeared that the knife had passed in obliquely and had ed or straight—I could not form any opinion, except from the description of meeting of face to face, and that I infer from Rebbeck's

evidence—I do not say I think it impossible it could be inflicted if the parties met face to face, but only unlikely.

CHARLES DURANT PEERLESS . I am house-surgeon at Bartholomew's Hospital—I remember Harrington being brought there—the prisoner was brought to his bedside, and Harrington made a statement—the inspector came and asked what condition he was in, and I told him he was not likely to recover—the deceased was asked who had stabbed him—he pointed out the prisoner, and said, "That is the man"—there were eight, nine, or ten persons present—one of my fellow house-surgeons had a moustache on, and I think one other, though my attention was not particularly called to the matter at the time—I did not notice it.

Cross-examined. Q. Was there one other in addition to the prisoner with a moustache on? A. I cannot say, I am not quite certain; to the best of my belief there was not more than one—I and my fellow surgeon were on the opposite side of the bed.

JURY to MR. CAIGER. Q. Were there any forms or tables in the tap-room? A. At the time I made my survey I believe the room was perfectly empty.

Witnesses for the Defence.

GREGORIO MOGNI (through an interpreter). I have been convicted, and sentenced to five years' penal servitude—before my conviction I had lived as a journeyman looking-glass manufacturer, with Signor Angelinetta—I was at the Golden Anchor on 26th December last, from about 6 in the evening to half-past 6—when I went there I saw Mr. Shaw, the landlord—I said to him, "You will take six Italians, and I will have six English like you"—I gave him a slap in the face—he then placed himself close to the bar, and then he went towards the bagatelle-room by the bar—two English came up to me and said something to me, but I did not understand them, as I did not understand English—they were going to do something to me, but afterwards we shook hands—my brother John was there at the time—after that one Englishman went outside the door, and one went into the bagatelle-room—I did not hear anything said in the bagatelle-room; I was outside—I saw some one at the tap-room door with a stick, and I heard the English say, "Come on, you Italian; come on, you Italian, "with their sticks in the air—there was a man of the name of Marazzi there—when the expression was made use of, my brother went on first, and went inside of the bagatelle-room door—I saw him go into the bagatelle-room; I went in too, and so did Marazzi—when I got in I found my brother up in a corner, with the blood streaming down his face, and heard him say, "Brother, they kill me"—when I heard that I pulled out the knife—Marazzi was behind me then—he said to me, "For God's sake, Gregorio, don't you use the knife"—I said, "Let me do myself, otherwise we shall not go out alive from this room"—I struck the knife in the first that stood near me; I put the knife into. the belly, so (describing)—I don't know who it was I struck—he did not fall to the ground.

COURT. Q. Do you recollect enough to be able to point to the part where you put the knife, what part of the person the knife struck? A. I do not know—I stabbed him in this way, with my left hand.

MR. RIBTON. Q. What was the name of the next person you wounded? A. Rebbeck—I had known him before—I believe I wounded another after him—I know the man by sight, but I don't know his name—(Bannister was here called forward)—that is the man—I am not sure if I wounded him in the hand or in his arm—as he was striking me with a stick, I struck him with the knife, but I am not sure where I cut him—I don't know the number

of English there were in the room, bat it was full; I saw one woman there—I know who she was; I know her by sight, but I don't know her name—(Maria King was called forward)—that is the woman that was in the room—I did not take any notice of her doing anything—I throwed her down in going in—I came out of the bagatelle-room; out at the door where they dance—I crossed the passage; my brother and Marazzi were already out—I don't know how long they had left the room before me, because I did not see them in the room any more; I don't know when they left—I found my brother a little way up Saffron-hill, going up Saffron-hill at the right hand coming out from the Anchor, up the right hand side; I found Marazzi just above the public-house of Bordessa—I was not wounded but I was struck with the fist, and had blows with sticks on the head—the blows on the head did not bring blood—I did not see Pelizzioni when I went out—they told us they had arrested Pelizzioni, and me and my brother went up as far as the workhouse—I met my brother just in the street going up, and we followed, because they told us they had Seraphim in charge—I went as far as the work-bouse—I first heard that Seraphini was in charge, in the tap-room—after I saw my brother I went back to the Golden Anchor to fetch our hats—I saw the landlady of the public-house and she gave me the hats—I took the hat that was given to me; it was not my own hat—a hat was given to my brother likewise—I afterwards saw Marazzi up at the public-house the Bordessa, near the pump—I said something to him—I saw Cetti at the Bordessa—I gave him my knife—this (the one produced) is my knife, and the one I gave him—I have had it nine or ten months—ou the same evening I went to the house of my employer, Angeliuetta, to fetch my clothes—I fetched them away—I did not sleep at my employer's house that night; I slept at Manzoni's, on the shavings—I asked his permission to do so—on the next morning I went on the other side of the water; I remained there till the Saturday and then went to Birmingham—I remained there till Mr. Negretti came down to me—I first learnt from him at Birmingham, that Polioni had been tried and convicted—I learnt that Polioni was sentenced to be hanged—I then came up to London with Mr. Negretti; I was taken to the police-court, there was an inquiry before the Magistrate, and I was committed and tried at this Court.

Cross-examined by MR. GIFFARD. Q. Are you related to the prisoner? A. Yes; we are cousins; third cousins—my brother Giovanni Mogni is here—he may be outside the court; he is here.

COURT. Q. Does your brother John speak English? A. Very little.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. You knew that your cousin had been taken into custody on the night of this murder? A. Yes; he was sentenced in the latter part of January—I heard from Mr. Negretti that he had been tried, convicted, and sentenced to be hanged, six or seven weeks after he was taken—I made inquiry what had become of my cousin—I heard from Mr. Negretti that the sentence of death was passed upon him—I cannot write—I never wrote to London for my clothes—I got John Schiena to write for me to ask what had become of my cousin—he wrote to a party of the name of Cettoni—that was just a little while before Mr. Negretti came down to Birmingham I don't know the time; it was about two weeks before Mr. Negretti came to Birmingham—I got an answer from Cettoni soon after; the next day—I have not got Cettoni's letter; I don't know what has become of it—Cettoni told me in the letter that he could not say about Seraphini, there was nothing yet decided, but he was going bad—I did not hear anything more until Mr. Negretti came down—I heard nothing between the letter and the

time when Mr. Negretti came down—I say I was at the Golden Anchor on the night of 26th about 6 or half-past 6; that was the first time I was there that day—I went there in company with Seraphini and Marazzi—Seraphini, Marazzi, and I went there together—we all three went in at the same door—it was not directly we went in that I said something to the landlord—I slapped his face, but that was a good while after.

COURT. Q. When you all three went there together, what did you first do? A. We were drinking.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. Where? A. Just in the little recesss that goes toward the bar from the tap-room, where there is a half-door—the first who spoke was Seraphini—I did not hear what he said to the landlord because I did not understand; I don't understand English—Seraphini spoke to the landlord in English—I did not take any notice that the landlord made any answer—I spoke to the landlord after Seraphini went away; about two minutes after—I spoke a little in English and a little in Italian, as I could—I said. "You take six Italians and me take six English just like you"—between the time that Seraphini had gone away and my saying that to the landlord, the landlord did not speak to me—I said that to the landlord because they struck one on the back on the Saturday night previous, and the landlord prided himself of taking six Italians—I had not been present then; I heard it from Gaspar Amossi—we had not been talking about that before I spoke to the landlord—the Italian who was turned out is called Coruepu—he has another name—I don't know where he works—I struck the landlord in the face because he had said on the Saturday night that he would have six Italians; some one had told me that he had said so—at the time I struck him I did not say, "If you insult one Italian you insult all, "or anything to that effect; I swear that—at the time I struck the landlord in the face Pelizzioni was away; he was not there—I don't know where he was—I was at the halfdoor, I don't know where Pelizzioni went when he went away; I went from the half-door to the bagatelle-room door—before I went to the bagatelle-room door I saw the landlord going towards the bagatelle-room by the bar—I believed that he was going into the bagatelle-room—I went to the bagatelle-room door because they invited us with the sticks to go in—I was then where they dance—I don't know the names of the two men with whom I shook hands—one I should know by sight; one I have seen again, had the other one not—I saw one at the police-court and I saw him in this court—I cannot tell you his name—he was dressed as a policeman—I had no weapon with me when I went to the bagatelle-room door; I went there with nothing in my hand—I drew out my knife in the bagatelle-room, not before; I am quite sure of that—when I went out of the bagatelle-room after that I had stabbed the people, I did not pass through the tap-room straight into the street; I stopped in the tap-room three or four minutes—it was while I was in the tap-room that I heard my cousin had been taken into custody; I don't know who it was told me so—I did not see my cousin in the bagatelle-room at all—I cannot say whether he was there when I was in—he was not there—I am ready to swear that he was not there—I can tell what persons were there—I did not know Harrington—when I got into the bagatelle-room there were Italians and English there—the door was open when I got in; I knocked or pushed a woman down—she was on the left in going in; she was in the room—the other Italians that were in the room had got in before the woman could get out—at the time I pushed the woman down there were three Italians in the room, my brother, Marazzi, and I—I did not take any notice where the man was that I stabbed in the belly—when I

went in I began to defend myself with the fist, and took do notice where he was standing—I knew Rebbeck—I stabbed the other one before I stabbed Rebbeck—Rebbeck was nearest the door; he was in the room—I stabbed Rebbeck after I turned back from having stabbed the other man—at the time I stabbed Rebbeck the door of the room was open—I did not see it shut at any part of the time that I was in the room—I am quite sure it was open all the time I was in the room—my brother got out of the door in the time that I stabbed Rebbeck—I did not see Marazzi go out—I don't know what time he did go out—I did not see any of the Italians beaten back from the passage—it might have happened without my knowing it—we three were the only Italians who tried to get into the room—I don't know how many there were in the tap-room altogether; six or eight; I did not take any notice—there were not several friends of mine there that night—I knew them by sight, but not to say friendly; they were acquaintances—I saw some of the Italians breaking up the forms in the tap-room—I did not know them, but I saw them breaking up something like a form—if I were to see the persons I might know who they were, but I did not take much notice—it was when I came out from the bagatelle-room that I saw them breaking up he forms—I did not see any of those people go into the bagatelle-room and try to get in—between the time that I came out of the bagatelle-room and the time I heard my cousin was in custody I had not seen anybody go into the bagatelle-room—my brother was working with me on 26th December—I don't know whether be left his work and got out of the way; I went away immediately and left him there—I went on the other side of the water on the Wednesday—the transaction happened on the Monday; on the Tuesday I Was with Mr. Manzoni, I did not go to work, and on the Wednesday I went over the water—my brother was not with me; I don't where he was—he had not done anything that I saw—his head was covered with blood—I don't know whether be showed it to a doctor, because I went away—I saw it that night—we went up as far as the workhouse together and came back directly to the Anchor (looking at Fawell) that is the man that I shook hands with—I am quite sure of that; it was at the half-door that goes into the bar that I shook hands with him; it was before I had been into the bagatelle-room—I put out my hand and touched his hand—there was this policeman and another one, and we shook hands together—I was tried here and convicted—Mr. Negretti brought me to London to be tried—he did not provide me with any attorney to defend me; I had one—I don't know if Mr. Lewis was the gentleman—I can't see him here—I do not know that the same attorney who prosecuted me was the attorney who instructed counsel to defend me—I did not provide any funds for my own defence—there was an advocate at the Police-court who defended me.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. How long have you been in the Penitentiary? A. Four or five weeks—I wore tonus taboos on this evening—Fawell was in plain clothes that night—I ceased to wear the mustachios when I went to prison—it was a light brownish colour, what they call chestnut; the same as Seraphim's.

JAMES GRAHAM LEWIS . I am the head of the firm of Lewis and Lewis, of Ely-place—I was solicitor under the instruction of Mr. Negretti, on the prosecution of Gregorio Mogni—I had nothing whatever to do with the defence of the man, not the most remote—I never saw him till he was prosecuted in this court.

Cross-examined. Q. Was Mr. Montague Williams instructed by your firm to defend him? A. No, neither directly or indirectly; he appeared, I

understand, instructed by Mr. Bordessa, one of the friends of the prisoner, not by me; I had nothing whatever to do with the defence—I did not instruct Mr. Williams, nor were instructions given by any member of our firm, or by our clerks or servants; I say so decidedly and emphatically, directly or indirectly—we employed no one whatever as agents. Adjourned, Saturday, April 15th.

ROCCIO ANGELINETTA . I am a looking-glass manufacturer—I know Gregono, he was in my service from 14th January, 1864—on 26th December he was wearing a moustache, a little darker than mine—he is a left-handed man—he was in my employment up to 26th December, Boxing day—3l. 17s. was due to him in wages—he gave me no notice of his intention to leave me previous to 26th December—I had no quarrel with him—he did not come to work on the 27th—he lived in my house, and slept there, and had done so during the period of his service—he did not sleep there on the night of the 26th December—I never saw him again until he returned from Birmingham with Mr. Negretti—I instituted inquiries for him, and communicated the result to Fawell the policeman—I communicated to Fawell the fact of his not having slept at my house after this affair, and everything I knew on the subject—I told him I thought he was in the Boro', from what I had learnt from his brother John—I believe his things were removed from my place, I never saw them after—I did not hear when he removed them; I made inquiries next day, and was told he had taken them away in a bag—he goes by the nickname of Mat; that means "Madman," it is a Patois; I have heard him called that repeatedly.

Cross-examined. Q. Did his brother also work with you? A. He did; he continued to work with me after the 26th, not down to the present time; he was in the shop next day, and I discharged him, because I heard he was in this affair—he took his wages, and left for Nottingham—I knew where he was to be found, and I communicated the same to Fawell, Flash Charley, as they call him—I swear that I communicated it to Fawell, on 30th December—I was examined as a witness on the prisoner's former trial—I said then that Gregorio's moustache was about the same colour as the prisoner's; I don't see much difference—I also said that Gregorio bore a strong personal resemblance to the prisoner; that is so in ray judgment; they were both shaved in the same manner on Boxing-day—on that morning Gregorio wore a beard, and he shaved himself about dinner-time, and that left him with a moustache without a beard; he had no whiskers, but a full beard in the morning.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. When he shaved about 12 o'clock he left only a moustache? A. Yes; his chin was clean—the trim of his moustache was exactly the same as the prisoner's—when I speak of their personal likeness I speak of the two men when they both had the moustache—I had never seen Gregorio with an entirely clean face before—I saw him here yesterday; I do consider there is a likeness between the two; of the two moustaches I should say Gregorio's was the darkest—I told Fawell what I had learnt about Gregorio, that he was over the water, and as he could not speak English in all probability he would be able to find him in some Italian house, and as there were very few Italians over the water, he would have no difficulty in knowing him.

COURT. Q. You say he went by the name of Mat? A. Yes, that means "mad;"I do not mean that he was mad, he was very jocular and frisky, jumping and running about, and squeaking at times, as though he was on he mountains.

GIOVANNI MANZONI . I reside in Francis-court, Berkeley-street, Clerkenwell—Gregorio came to my house on 26th December, about a quarter to 10 at night—from something he said to me I allowed him to sleep on the shavings that night—he made a statement to me of something that had taken place at the Golden Anchor—I did not see him next morning, I did not see him again until I saw him at the Police-court.

Cross-examined. Q. You were examined as a witness, I think, at the first trial? A. No, I was not, I was prevented from speaking; I was examined, and when I had got as far as I did just now, you stopped me—I said that Gregorio very much resembled the prisoner.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Was that your opinion? A. It was, and it is so now; and in a row like this, it was quite near enough to be very much alike.

DOMINICO CETTI (interpreted). I recollect Gregorio coming to the Bordessa public-house on the evening of 26th December, about half-past 6 or 7 o'clock—he handed me a knife, and at the same time made a statement—I threw that knife in the court-yard—I did not examine it well, but it was the same size as this produced, but shut up—I threw it in the yard of the public-house, directly Gregorio left; he did not stay longer than five minutes—it was shut when he gave it to me; I did not open it—when he gave it to me he said, "Be so kind as to keep the knife for me; "he told me it was in a question at the Anchor.

Cross-examined. Q. You were examined at the first trial, I think? A. Yes; I said that the prisoner much resembled Gregorio.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. What is your opinion now on that subject? A. They are a little alike, not precisely; but they are something like each other—I don't know in what part of the yard I threw the knife.

THOMAS COWLAND . I am potman at the Bordessa—the morning after Boxing-day I found a knife in the urinal in the court-yard, between 9 and 10 o'clock—this is the knife (looking at it)—it was shut—it was all covered with water from the urine.

Cross-examined. Q. You were also examined as a witness on the first trial? A. Yes—I did not then swear positively this was not the knife—I gave the knife to Mrs. Miller—two knives were placed in my hand when I was in the witness-box—I said the first was not the knife—I said of the other, "It is like this, only the spring is broken; "it was looser then than it is now—Inspector Potter was called, and asked if it was the knife he received from me, and I was recalled, and said, "the knife I found and gave to Potter was looser than this; "what I said was, "looser than it is now"—I do not remember saying on cross-examination, "This is not the knife;" I only said that it was looser than when I found it—it might have got rusty and stiff from lying in the water.

COURT. Q. What sort of a urinal is it where you found the knife? A. It is a level place, with two flagstones and a sink—there is no covering to it; there are two places—there is a wooden door to it which shuts by a spring; the bottom of the door comes down to the stones—the door I speak of leads from the passage of the house into the yard; there is no other door, no separate door to the urinal itself—it is an open yard; you go from the house door into it—I gave the knife to Mrs. Miller between 11 and 12 o'clock, and I got it back from her between 8 and 9 the same night—when I found it I did not wash it; I opened it, shut it again, and put it in my pocket.

JOSEPH CAPRIANI . I am a stereotype-printer—I know this knife, it was

mine two years ago—I exchanged with Gregorio, about ten months from the present time; I exchanged my knife for his—this is the knife I gave him.

Cross-examined. Q. How came you to exchange it with him? A. I exchanged it for another knife—I have not got that other knife here—I can get it in five minutes, it is still in my possession—it was not the same sort of knife as this—it was one that is not used to carry in a pocket—I went to see him in the shop where he worked and saw the knife, and this one was of no use to me; the other was very handy for cutting open bundles of paper, and I exchanged this for it, because it was convenient to my work—this is a knife that shuts up—the other was a hook-knife, handy to cut string with quickly—this opens with a spring; it is not broken, the spring is all right; it is in the same condition in which I had it—there is a good deal of rust on it—I can fetch my knife in three minutes.

JURY. Q. Is there any particular mark on this knife by which you can positively swear to it? A. There is not any very particular mark on it, but I can swear to it, because I had it fifteen months—(the witness was desired to fetch his knife).

FREDERICK GRIFFIN . I am an artist and modeller—I know the witness Harriet Verge, by sight—I saw her examined here—she pointed out to me a place where it was said a knife was found—I took the measurement from that spot to the window of the bagatelle-room at the back of the Golden Anchor, which faces the ruins—I know the premises; I made a model of them—the distance was 130 feet, that was to the yard; there is a yard before you get to the window, and I should think it was twenty feet from the yard to the window; in all, the distance would be 150 feet; we could not measure close, on account of the timber and high planks in the yard.

Cross-examined. Q. When did you take this measurement? A. Last Thursday morning—the little boy was with me, and his mother—the mother pointed out the place, but the child was with her—his mother asked him, and he pointed out the spot; Mr. Galli was also there—I was employed to do it for the purposes of the defence.

COURT. Q. How does the window stand with reference to the place that was pointed out to you, in a right line or in an oblique direction? A. More oblique—I should think it was eight or nine feet out of the right line, more to the north—the pieces of timber were piled close so that there was no possibility of measuring up to the window; they were piled up on end—the whole space between the commencement of the yard and the window, was occupied by it; I should think that was about twenty feet; you could hardly discern the window, only just the top of it—I had been there before, but not before 26th December—I can't say in what state the yard was then—the timber was higher than the window—I got up on some old doors that were piled there, and I could then see the length of the yard and the whole of the windows.

JOSEPH CAPRIANI (re-examined). This is the knife I exchanged with Gregorio (producing a knife with a round blade to it).

JANE MILLER . I received a knife from Cowland on the Tuesday after Boxing-day, the 27th, about 10 in the morning—I took it home to my husband; I thought it was his, the handle resembled one that he had lost—he said it was not his, and told me to take it away, that it had been in the row last night, there were spots of blood on it—I put it on the mantel-piece at the time, until I was going out; I then took it with me to Mr. Bordessa's, and said it did not belong to my husband—I gave it to the Inspector in the

evening—several persons were present when I gave it to him; the young man who gave it to me was there—I am sure it was the same knife; I should know it if I was to see it; this is the knife (looking at it)—I have never been examined before on this matter, and was not aware till ten minutes ago that I was to be; I was fetched from my work.

Cross-examined. Q. Did you do anything with the knife in the way of cleaning it? A. No, the spots were on it when I gave it to the inspector.

ANN SAMS . I am a brush-drawer, and live at 15, King Edward-street, Mile End New Town—I work for Gospel's, of Bury-street, St. Mary Axe—I am employed on their premises, and have been so for six or seven months I am there now—I was at the Golden Anchor, on Saffrou-hill, on Boxing-day—it was a holiday with me that day—I was in the dancing-room—I have known the prisoner for three or four years—there was some dancing going on between 4 and 5 o'clock—I danced with the prisoner once, but that was not till between 5 and 6 o'clock—I danced before he came in, and then I danced with him—I believe it was a Polka—I did not finish it—I was treading on my gown, and I felt giddy, and would not finish it—I saw the prisoner go out of the tap-room into the street leading out on Saffron-hill—that was between 5 and 6 o'clock—I remained there until the row took place—I did not see the prisoner at all after I danced with him, before the row took place—I saw a man strike Mr. Shaw.—it was Gregorio—I knew him before by sight, seeing him in the company of other men—there is a little resemblance between him and the prisoner—the landlord was serving in front of the bar when he struck him—I did not hear him say anything at the time; Mrs. Shaw was serving in front of the bar, and she turned to Gregorio and asked what he had struck her husband for, and she pushed her husband away—I know Gregorio's brother—I saw him there that night—after I saw Gregorio strike Mr. Shaw I went into the tap-room again—I bow Fawell by sight—I saw him that night at the side-box, at the side of the bar-parlour—I am quite sure of that—it was about 5 o'clock—I did not notice him later than that—I did not see him shaking hands with anybody—after I went into the tap-room, I went round and stood at the sidebox—I was then standing close to Gregorio—I saw Gregorio hold up his hand, shaking his band and gritting this teeth—the tap-room door was then opened; I can't say who opened it, but I saw Gregorio's brother going in, John, he was going in the tap-room door; that faces the bagatelle-room—I did not know that there were English in the bagatelle-room—I did not hear any disturbance before this—I then came out of the side-box where I was standing, and the people in the tap-room were then standing with the sticks, several of them—I saw them then make a rush; there were too many for me to see who was first—Gregorio came from the side-box where I was standing, and went into the door that leads into the tap-room through into the bagatelle-room—I could see that he did get in, because both doors face one another—there was a rush then with the other men; I did not see Pelizzioni among them—I saw Gregorio come out again a few minutes afterwards without a cap on his head, and he looked very white and angry—I did not see anything in his hand—I saw his brother come out—the left side of his face, if I am not mistaken, was streaking down with blood; I am sure one side was, because I saw the blood after they came out of the bagatelle-room into the tap-room—I heard Gregorio speak in English to another man, and ask him to come outside—I don't know that man—I saw Gregorio go out, and his brother—I went again into the side box where I first was—I did not see Pelizzioni again at all that evening—I never saw him return to

the house after he finished dancing—there was no particular intimacy between us.

Cross-examined. Q. Does the half-door shut off the bar from the sidebox? A. Yes, that is where I was standing—I saw the prisoner come into the house from the street—there was another person with him; a young chap whom they call "Peter"—he is outside—his name is Peter Moraltz, or Marazzi—they came to the side-box where I was standing, and had something to drink—I did not hear the prisoner speak to Mr. Shaw—I did not hear or see him talk at all to the landlord—there were four or five of them in this side-box—that was before the dance, five or ten minutes before—I did not remain at the same place until Gregorio struck the landlord in the face—I was there for about a quarter of an hour—there was no striking of the landlord in the face during that time—I did not notice Gregorio there when Seraphini first came in—I saw him come in before I danced with the prisoner—he and the prisoner and Peter all had something to drink at the half-door—there is no seat there—I went out of the tap-room when I saw the blow struck—I was then standing in front of the bar—it was after I had danced that I saw Gregorio strike the landlord; I am sure of that—I was asked to go and have something to drink in front of the bar—I went out of the door that looks out into Saffron-hill—I cannot say whether Gregorio was there before I was dancing—I went from the side-box to join in the dance with the prisoner—it was about twenty minutes after I had stopped dancing, that I saw Gregorio strike the landlord—the prisoner was in the tap-room five or ten minutes before he asked me to dance with him—I can't say how long I had been at the side-box when I first saw the prisoner come in; I might have remained there about ten minutes afterwards—when Gregorio struck Mr. Shaw, Mrs. Shaw pushed her husband away, and said to her husband, "For God's sake, Fred, go in-doors, "and Mr. Shaw then went and stood between the bagatelle-room door and the parlour-door—I went from the front of the bar into the tap-room, in the same way I came—it was immediately after that that I saw the rush made at the bagatelle-room door—the bagatelle-room door was open; I saw it—that was immediately after the rush took place—I saw it opened when the rush of the men was going in—I was then in the middle of the tap-room—when I first went into the tap-room, after leaving the side-box, the tap-room door leading into the passage was shut—I could not then see whether the bagatelle-room door was open or not—I saw the tap-room door opened after I was in—I did not see who opened it—there was a lot of people standing between me and the door—when I saw the tap-room door opened, the bagatelle-room door was open—i could see into the bagatelle-room—I could see that from where I was standing—it was kept open by the men that were going in—I can't say whether it was open before the men got to it, or whether any one was trying to prevent its being opened—the Italians had sticks in their hands, making their way into the bagatelle-room; I could not see anybody in the bagatelle-room with sticks trying to drive the Italians back; I could not say whether there was or not—I did not see the bagatelle-room door shut—I suppose I was standing there about five minutes altogether while I saw the bagatelle-room door open—all the Italians who were trying to get in did not get in; three or four of them were left in the tap-room—I could not tell how those who were trying to get in were prevented—I could not say who actually got in, and who was kept out—I know Gregorio got in, because he left when I was standing at the side-box, and he came back when I was standing—I saw him go through the tap-room door—that is my only

reason for saying he got into the bagatelle-room—I was examined at the prisoner's first trial—I can't say whether Gregorio's brother was in the heat of passion, or not; I don't remember saying so at the last trial—he seemed anxious to get out of the tap-room—I was frightened to look at Gregorio, because he looked so white and angry—when I was examined before, I remembered that Gregorio's brother had his face streaming with blood; I did not mention it—I never saw the prisoner again that night after dancing with him—I left the house after all the row was over, about half-past 7, or a quarter to 8—before I left the house Mrs. Shaw asked me to fetch a cab—I did not hear that anybody had been stabbed until after I came back with the cab; that was about 7 o'clock—I saw Gregorio go away before I went for the cab—I did not see Mrs. King there at all—I did not see her, or any woman knocked down.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. How did Gregorio's brother come out of the room? A. He came out without a cap on his head, and the blood was trickling from his head down his neck and face—I did not notice anything else—Gregorio came out with a rush to the side where I was standing, and he said to a man in English, "Come outside, it is right"—I saw him go out—I did not notice his face—I had never seen such a row before—I was frightened; I could not get out one way or the other—while Gregorio was standing at the side-box with me, the other Italians who were in the room were breaking up the forms, and had sticks—the Italians said something to Gregorio in Italian—I don't understand Italian—Gregorio then went from the side-box where I was standing, and the tap-room door was opened.

COURT. Q. What did Gregorio do after somebody spoke to him in Italian? A. Gregorio was the first to rush to the door—I can't say whether the man they call Peter was among the men that went in—I did not see him afterwards—I have spoken as to time as near as I could judge.

JOHN MOGNI (interpreted). I was at the Golden Anchor on the evening of 26th December—I got there between 6 and half past, about quarter of an hour before the disturbance—I saw my brother there—I did not go in at the same time with him—I saw him have a dispute with the landlord—he was speaking to him—he said, "You want to take six Italians and I take six English like you, "and he gave him a slap in the face—the landlord went round by the bar to the other room—I went to the bagatelle-room—I went in at the door where they dance—directly I went in at the door they knocked me down with sticks—they gave me some blows on my head with a stick—I went into the bagatelle-room alone—while I was being struck I saw Marazzi come in and my brother—that was while they were beating me—my brother came in, after Marazzi—I said to him, "Brother, help me, otherwise they kill me"—my brother gave blows and kicks after that—I saw him pull out a knife and give a blow in the right with the knife—after that I saw him come down near to me to give a blow to another, and after that I ran out from the room—when I came out my face was all bloody; I was wounded here (on the head)—I went out at the door into the street—my head was not covered at that time—I saw my brother in about five minutes—his head was not covered—we went back again to the Golden Anchor—I received a hat from Mrs. Shaw, and my brother also—I took my hat and went home—I left my brother there—I knew he was going to leave London—I did not know it before 26th December.

Cross-examined. Q. I think you say you were the first of the Italians that got into the bagatelle-room? A. Yes; when I got to the door it was closed; I did not open it, the English inside opened it—I was going in to

quiet them—they were in there with their sticks; I mean the English were—after my brother gave the landlord a slap in the face the English were inside the bagatelle-room preparing themselves to fight us—I saw the landlord go in, and I saw them—I am quite sure I saw him go in—I saw him go in by the door close to the parlour—it was directly after I saw him go in at that door that I went round to the other door—I know that the English were preparing themselves with sticks to fight us, because they opened the door and called—I do not know them—when I got to the door it was shut, but it was before that they opened the door and called—they shut the door at the same time that I got there—I know Rebbeck—I did not see him come out at the bagatelle door into the tap-room—I swear I did not see him—I did not say to him, "Go back again, or you will catch it as well as the rest"—they call me John there—I did not say to Rebbeck, "Get back; do not be a fool"—I did not speak to him—I said nothing about his catching it as well as the rest, or anything of the sort—I saw him that night where they pull the beer, and only there—what my brother said to the landlord was, "Do you take six Italians; me take six English like you"—I had been in the house About ten minutes at that time—I do not know how long my brother had been there; he was in before me—I did not see the prisoner when I first went in; he was not there—I saw my brother, but the prisoner was not there; I am sure of that—Marazzi was in the room—he was standing with my brother when I went in, and there was a third party, named Gaspar, a frame-maker—he is here—he was in before me—I am sure the prisoner was not beside my brother and Gaspar when I got in—I saw him when they were taking him away, and that was the first time I saw him—at that time I and my brother had left the house about five minutes—I saw him outside going on the street by the workhouse, where they go up by the police-station—I did not actually get into the bagatelle-room before I was struck—I was struck in the act of going in at the door—the first blow did not knock me down, but it stunned me; I was able to make my way into the room—I was struck down as soon as I got in at the door—I was struck down, but not till I got to the end of the room—I understood English very little—I could not see who it was that Struck me—there was light there, but there were so many I do not know any of them—if I were to see those who struck me I should know them—I did not see a woman knocked down—I did not see a woman in the room—I saw my brother outside this morning—I have not been with him the greater part of the morning; I was not with him three minutes—my brother and I left the house without our hats—we went a little way up near to the workhouse along with Seraphini, who was at that time in the hands of the police—my brother did not tell me immediately on going away that he had stabbed anybody—he told me to go back to get the hats—he went back with me—I was examined at my brother's trial—I said then that the hat my brother got was his.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Why did you say that the hat was your brother's? A. Because I believed it was—we asked for our hats, and those hats were given us—they gave mine and his—I knew that my brother was going away, when we got down to the house where we were living, about a quarter of an hour after—when the English opened the door and called out, they said, "Come here, Italians; we want to fight you with sticks"—I have been in Mr. Angelinetta's service eighteen months.

RICHARD WILLIAM COLVERT . I am a constable of the liberty of Saffronhill, and have been so about two years—I know the Golden Anchor public-house

—I was there on Boxing-day from about 3 o'clock in the afternoon until 4—I know the constable Fawell very well indeed—I saw him there that day—he entered the house a few minutes after I went in, and he was there when I left—he was in plain clothes—he was smoking a cigar—he stood at the back of the counter, with his face in the direction of Saffron-hill—I could see him very plainly—he was talking to the landlord when he could get away from serving—I could not see that he was drinking at all—I did not notice that particularly—I left him there to the best of my knowledge.

Cross-examined. Q. Do you mean that he was there for nearly an hour? A. He was quite an hour to my knowledge, or nearly so, it must have been—he did not sit down at all—I did not see him drink—I have known kirn for years—I was drinking with a friend in front of the bar—it was as near 4 o'clock as possible when I left the house.

PIETRO MARAZZI (interpreted). I am a looking-glass silverer and work in Bleeding Hart-yard—I know the Golden Anchor—I was there on Boxingday—I went there about 3 o'clock—I was there about an hour and a half—I went back again a second time, at a quarter to 5—I saw Gregorio there—I saw him take the landlord by the chest and say, "Is it you that want six Italians, I will take six English"—after that he gave him a slap—that was about between 6 and 7 o'clock—the landlord went round the bar, but I do not know that he went in or if he stopped at the door of the bagatelle-room—Gregorio came in to where they were dancing and went into the bagatelle-room—I was in the bagatelle-room when he went in—Gregorio's brother was also in the bagatelle-room—the first I saw was that they were striking Gregorio's brother—they struck me after I got in, after Gregorio came in—in coming in he threw a woman down—I was holloaing to help, and his brother was also halloaing to help him—he then pulled out a knife—I said to him, "Stop, for God's sake, don't you use the knife"—he replied, "You let me do, otherwise we will not go out alive"—I saw the knife in his hand—I cannot swear that this is the knife (looking at it), it was brighter, shinier—I did not see him do anything with the knife, because one took me by the collar behind and pulled me outside—Gregorio's brother's ll covered with blood, where they struck him—I saw Gregorio afterward in Cross-street, that was half or three-quarters of an hour after.

Cross-examined. Q. After you saw Gregorio strike the landlord and the landlord go round by the bagatelle-room door, did Gregorio immediately make up to the door of the bagatelle-room? A. No—I was examined as a witness at the trial of Gregorio—I stated then, After I saw Gregorio attacking the landlord and he went round to go in the bagatelle-room door, Gregorio made up to the door of the bagatelle-room"—it was about five minutes from the time I saw Gregorio strike the landlord, to the time I saw him make up to the door of the bagatelle-room.

Q. How came you to go to the bagatelle-room at all? A. Because I heard a noise inside, and because they kept saying, "They are going to fight, they are going to fight, they are going to begin a row"—the Italians said that.

Q. But how came that to bring you into the bagatelle-room? A. I went for to go to the water-closet—the water-closet is in the passage—it was not my intention to go in among the Euglish, but directly I opened the door they struck me down with sticks—there are two doors, one that goes from the tap-room into the passage; I went in by that door, it was shut, I opened it, and when I got in, the door of the bagatelle-room was open and the English were there—I did not get into the bagatelle-room before

I was struck, they struck me directly I went in, then they invited me to go in and, I went in—one of the sticks I was struck with broke my finger—I was examined at Polioni's first trial—I did not then say a word about my having been in the bagatelle-room—I did say about Gregorio having a knife in the bagatelle-room. (The witness's evidence on the former trial toot read over to him.) That was what I said, and all that I said.

PIETRO GUCOHIANA (interpreted). On the evening of 26th December I was at the Golden Anchor—I recollect the disturbance commencing—I saw Gregorio were—after the disturbance commenced I went outside for about ten minutes—I afterwards went to the Bordessa public-house—I saw the prisoner there and spoke to him—he came outside, and then we walked gently on to the Anchor public-house; we walked both together—I saw him go in—I did not go in.

MR. J. G. LEWIS (re-examined). Neither Mellership, Stanley, Miller, or King, were called as witnesses on the trial of Gregorio—Rebbeck and Mrs. King were called for the defence—before the prosecution I forwarded a copy of the depositions to the Home Secretary, and I received a reply after two days, stating that the Crown declined to interfere.

JURY to ALFRED REBBECK. Q. What timber was there about the yard on 26th December? A. There was a lot of window-sashes, one or two doors, and some quartering, twelve, fourteen, and twenty-four feet long, all sizes—the bagatelle-room window opens both upwards and downwards—there are two sashes, the lower part was open when I got out of the window—it is about eight feet from the ground—the timber was always there, but it has been piled up since that by Mr. Worms to show that Seraphini could not have thrown the knife there—it was done the week before last—(A photograph of the yard was handed to the Jury)—when I got out of the window I got into the yard—the timber is the same, but it has been packed up differently since—Mr. Worms employed two men to pack it up.


10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-455
VerdictNot Guilty > no evidence

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455. SERAPHINI POLIONI was again indicted for feloniously wounding Charles Bannister with intent to murder him.

MR. BEASLEY offered no evidence on this indictment.


NEW COURT.—Saturday, April 15th, 1865

Before Mr. Justice Shee.

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-456
VerdictGuilty > lesser offence

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456. ELIZA MORGAN (26), was indicted for the wilful murder of her new-born female child.

MR. TAYLOR conducted the Prosecution, and MR. RIBTON the Defence.

GUILTY of concealing the birth only. Confined Twelve Months.

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-457
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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457. ROBERT THOMAS (29) , Feloniously sending a letter demanding money with menaces, well knowing the contents thereof.

MR. PATER conducted the Prosecution.

BARBARA ROBERTS . I am the wife of Thomas Roberts, of 38, Great Percy-street, Pentonville—I have known the prisoner about three years—my husband first met him on Sunday, and told him to come to our house next morning as he was in a very destitute state—he did not know him before—the prisoner showed me a paper which a policeman had given him—he came on Monday morning, and we gave him breakfast—

my husband said that he would try to get him some work—my husband has employed him and found him work, on and off, from that time to March last—I remember my husband giving him a cheque for 2l. to get changed on 11th February, but did not see him do so—he was brought to our house by his landlord that evening, and I was present when my husband asked him the reason he kept the money he had received for, the cheque—he said that he intended to keep it, and handed my husband the purse without the money—it was my husband's purse, I knew it before—my husband asked him the second time if he was going to give up the money—I do not think be mentioned the sum—the prisoner said, "No"—my husband said that he would fetch a policeman and give him in charge, and went out for one—I asked the prisoner the reason he did not give up—the money before the policeman came—I said that it was very foolish of him, and asked him if my husband owed him the money—he said, "No"—I asked him his motive for keeping it—he said that he had made up his mind to keep it—the prisoner afterwards knocked at the door, and gave this letter to my husband—I have only seen him since at the police-court—he has not been in the house since, but he has been annoying outside—I heard him, but did not see him—(The letter was addressed,"Thomas Roberts, Esq. 28, Great Percy-street, London; March 15, 1865, "and contained the following passages: "If you will not pay me the 2l., you owe me to-night, I shall spill your blood; then I die in peace. As sure as your name is Roberts, and mine Thomas, you will be a dead man in twenty-four hours." "You ought to be shot and quartered; you shall feel the effects of cold steel." "If it take ten weeks to do it, I will carry out my revenge, and then I am willing to deny, "(or 'die.') ROBERT THOMAS.")

Prisoner. Q. In what month did you first know me? A. In October; about the time that the Exhibition was opened—you said that you were penniless when I first knew you, and my husband gave you sixpence to pay for a lodging on Saturday night—you worked under my husband at Mr. Sinclair's—I do not know that while you were in the service of Sinclair, Roberts, and Co. you were sent to our house to take charge of the goods and prevent the Sheriffs' officer taking them—you were backwards and forwards, but were not in charge of anything—I do not know that you had charge of all the goods—yon did not tell my husband that the money was yours; but I asked you if Mr. Roberts owed you the money, and you said, "No, "and that I knew nothing about the matter—you delivered this letter to me, and I gave it to my husband.

MR. PATER. Q. Do you know the prisoner's writing? A. Yes; but he has tried to disguise it in this—I should say that it is his, but my son will be able to say better.

ROBERT WILLIAM WINN . I live at the house occupied by Mr. Roberts, and am clerk to Captain Roberta, at 3, Walbrook—the prisoner was brought there by his landlord some day in March—Mrs. Roberts said, "Does Mr. Roberts owe you any thing?"—he said, "No, "and that he was determined not to deliver the money; that he had no reason for it, but he Was determined to keep it—I remember his calling at the house one day in March when he delivered the second letter to Mrs. Roberts—I went out and persuaded him to go home quietly—he said, "If I do not see Mr. Roberts to-night, I am determined to shoot him before he goes to the City to-morrow."—I persuaded him to go home quietly.

Prisoner. Q. Are you in the service of Captain Roberts? A. Yes, he is the same Roberts that is concerned in the British Mining and Finance

Company—I am not a secretary of any bubble-company—I am secretary of two companies—I did not know that you were drunk—I saw no pistol or gun with you—I do not recollect that I saw you next morning, or that anybody about the house did.

WILLIAM B. MOFFAT . I am an architect, and live in Larkhall-lane, Clapham—on 15th March, I called on Mr. Roberts—the prisoner was standing at the door within a few yards—I was under the impression that I had seen him before—I asked him where Mr. Roberts resided—he pointed out the door to me—I knocked, and found Mrs. Roberts and the family in a great state of alarm—I went out again, and had a long conversation with the prisoner—he said that Mr. Roberts owed him 2l., and if he paid him that be would leave and go to Liverpool—I said, "Will you pledge your word to go to Liverpool, and not molest Mr. Roberts any more?"—I went into the house and spoke to Mr. Roberts, and then came out and spoke to the prisoner again—he said he was a butcher, and he would destroy Mr. Roberts: that he would rip him up; that if he could not meet with him one day he would another, and he was determined to shoot him.

Prisoner. Q. How long have you known Mr. Roberts? A. Nearly twenty years—I do not know how many times he has been bankrupt—we were not in prison together—you were excited undoubtedly—as far as I was concerned I should not have been frightened at you, but as far as Mr. Roberts and his family were concerned, you ought not to have been at liberty—it was my opinion that your mind was deranged—I do not remember saying on a former occasion that you were in such a deranged state of mind that you ought not to have been at liberty, but I do not hesitate to say it now—I did not ask to see your knife—I asked you whether you would have something to drink—you told me Mr. Roberts owed you 2l.—you made much noise about the house—I cannot describe your language better than that it was like a maniac—the people were out of their doors right and left—I did not promise to get you the money if you came next night, but I said for the sake of peace that I would do what I possibly could—I saw no knife or dagger.

JOHN WILSON ROBERTS . I am the prosecutor's son—that letter is in the prisoner's writing—part of it is disguised—I have seen him write many times.

Prisoner. Q. Where? A. At the works in Love-lane, more than half-adozen times.

ROBERT ELFORD (Policeman, G 134). The prisoner was given into my custody on 16th March—I told him I took him for writing threatening letters and annoying Mr. Thomas Roberts, of Percy-street—he said, "Very well, I will go with you; I know I shall get five years for it, but I will ruin him; I am determined to do for him."

Prisoner. Q. Did you caution me? A. I merely told you what I took you for—my name is put down against every prisoner I get in custody—I do not get more stripes on my arm the more cases I get; it does not go further towards my promotion—I swear it was five years that you said, and not five months.

Prisoners Defence. I am not the author of that letter; the very fact of my delivering it proves that I am not. It is written in a disguised hand. I have written other letters to him threatening the same thing, and why should I disguise my hand in this, more than the others? I claim the money out of a certain transaction. He sold to a Mr. Flemming a cask of lead, which he had not on his premises. I was acting as foreman, and was to have

a sovereign for passing a cask of pyrites off as a cask of lead. He got Mr. Davis to plunge into business, and then defrauded him. He pretended to buy four tubs, charging thirty-five shillings for them, when their real market value was five shillings, and promised me ten shillings. He also bought some iron weights and a measure, and defrauded Mr. Davis more or less, and promised to pay me for shutting my mouth. I wrote three or four thousand addresses for him at 7s. 6d. per thousand, but he never paid me a halfpenny. I quarrelled with him about money, and he told me if I came to a certain trial where he was charged with defrauding the London Parcels Delivery Company, he would pay all outstanding debts; but as soon as he got my services he broke faith with me, and did not pay me a halfpenny. He gave me the cheque to get changed, and I said, "I have got half what I ought to have, and I will keep it." He took me to Guildhall before Alderman Phillips, who told him he ought to pay me. I deny the letter in toot.

THE COURT considered that Mr. Roberts ought to be called.

THOMAS ROBERTS . (Examined by the prisoner). I have known you since 1861; I think it was in the spring—when I first saw you showel me a paper; one was a letter, and the other a ticket, which you said was written by a policeman, stating that be had found you on a step in a state of starvation, and the letter was from a gentleman in South Wales, who I knew, and on account of that I took notice of you—my firm is Sinclair and Roberts—you worked for me, not for the firm—you cleaned the windows at my house, and carried out an experiment with another man—I went to the works to you, and gave you a paper to go up to my house—I cannot recollect the contents—you were employed by the assignee of my effects to hold possession—I did not promise to raise your wages at that time, but there was a rise in your wages when you became acquainted with the work—I did not promise you an increase while you were in possession—a dispute arose between my partner and me, and the firm was extinguished—I left the firm three or four months after you were put in possession—I had formed a partnership with Mr. Fleming, which led to my discontinuing my partnership with Mr. Sinclair—the new firm of Roberts and Black lasted about a month, that was before Mr. Fleming's; it was only provisional, and did not come to anything—I cannot tell how much white lead was on the premises, or how much they sold—I did not keep the books—you sent me a letter last Saturday, and told me to bring Black, the partner, here—you told me to bring the books and samples, but did not supply me with the expenses or the means—the books are not at my house, I never kept them; Mr. Black kept them, and has got them; he has left his residence some time now, and I do not know where he lives—I did not tell you that if you would pass a cask of pyrites off as lead I would give you 1l.; I had nothing to do with the transaction; I do not remember promising you 1l. for anything—I remember a person, named Williams, but do not remember going to the station with you to turn him out of the works—I remember two policemen coming to the works to prevent Williams giving you a thrashing; he did not in the policemen's presence charge me with cheating Fleming out of a cask of lead; there is no excuse for saying so, the property was mine and not Fleming's—it was not all Fleming's money that was in the works—when I started Fleming my creditors were pushing on him—I did not send out four cans of oil and one can of water, it was taken and charged and paid for to Mr. Fleming—I have no recollection of receiving a threatening letter from you last summer—you have written addresses for me, and here they are; I

promised you 10s. a thousand, and paid you every day on account—you had been paid every shilling when you wrote this letter—I paid you in money, and you had breakfast, tea, and supper every day—you did not write 1,000 of the addresses—I was charged by the solicitor to the London Parcels' Delivery Company with defrauding them, but an apology was made to me that it was wrong, they made a mistake, and not me—I had no differences with you on the Saturday night preceding the trial—I remember coming for you as a witness, and promised you 3s. for the day if you attended the trial; but I did not promise to pay you all your claims—there may have been some pawn tickets in the purse you gave me when your landlord brought you back, but the money was not there—you had never claimed 2l. of me; you never had any occasion to make a claim, you were paid as you went on—I did not see you at the door on the night in question, but I heard you taling about taking my life away, that you would shoot me, and would take a knife and rip roe up, that you would wait for me next day when I went to business, and wait for me if it was near a month—I was frightened—I never believed you could write such a letter as this, and I believe you would kill me as easily as possible.

The prisoner called—

SAMUEL AMBROSE DAVIS . To the best of my belief that letter is in your writing, but disguised—I have seen you write repeatedly—you have made demands upon me.

GUILTY .— Confined Eighteen Months.

THIRD COURT—Saturday, April 15th, 1865.

Before Mr. Recorder.

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-458
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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458. GEORGE GONER (24), and JAMES HAYES (17) , Burglariously breaking and entering into the dwelling-house of John Kirby, and stealing therein I watch, I chain, I breast-pin, and other articles, his property to which they


HAYES.— Confined Nine Months.

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-459
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

Related Material

459. GEORGE GONER was again indicted for a robbery with violence, on Charles Masters, and stealing from him I watch and I guard chain, his property.

MR. GOUGH conducted the Prosecution.

CHARLES MASTERS . I live at 31, Bunhill-row—I am out of business—I was formerly a publican—on Tuesday evening, 21st March, between 9 and 10 o'clock I was at a public-house in New Inn-yard—I went in to have a glass of ale—I left between 8 and 9, I believe; I felt rather giddy when I got out—I was not the worse for liquor; I had had a few glasses of ale—I did not notice the prisoner at the suddenly seized me by the collar, and threw me violently on the stones, and cut my head—when I was down he hit me very hard with something in the mouth, and took my silver watch and gold chain from my pocket; I then tried to get up, but he knocked me down again—there was another party not far off, and the prisoner said to him, "I have got it to rights,"meaning the watch and chain—they then both ran away together—I was very much injured, my knee very severely injured, it cut my trousers, the scars are on my forehead now, and on my mouth; my teeth are very loose now—I have not recovered my watch—I had an opportunity of seeing the features of the person who assaulted me—I picked him out at the station afterwards—I am quite sure the prisoner is the man.

Prisoner. Q. You asked the gaoler and came and looked, and asked who I was? A. No, I did not; the officer opened the door, and I walked in and picked you out—I did not say I was not sure about you—I can't say what clothes you had on—I was insensible when you knocked me down—you turned down a dark place after you took my watch—I don't know which way you went.

JAMES MORGAN . I am a chair-maker, at 3, Crown-court, New Inn-yard—on the night of 21st March) at five minutes to 9, I was just by a lamp-post by a public-house in New Inn-yard—I saw the prosecutor standing between the windows outside, and saw another man lay hold of the collar of his coat and pull him along by a place called Hatfield's, and push him down; he then drew his watch from his waistcoat pocket—the prosecutor went to get up, and the man pushed him down again; he then went towards New Inn-yard, turned back again, and went towards Norfolk-gardens—the prisoner is the man-there is a change in his appearance; he had a moustache then, and a little hair on his chin.

Prisoner. Q. What coloured coat had I on? A. A kind of a light coat under a dark one.

CHARLES WARE . I am fourteen years old, and live with my parents at 3, New-square, Hackney-road—about 9, on 21st March, I was in New Innbroadway, and saw the prosecutor come out of the public-house—I saw another one come up behind him, and lay hold of him; he walked him up just opposite a place where they let out barrows, and then I saw the man feel about the prosecutor with his hand, and then he snatched something from him; he then hit him and knocked him down, and then ran away—the prisoner is the man.

Prisoner. Q. Did not you say I bad some hair on my chin? A. Yes, you had a little—you had a light coat on—you went round the corner and up Norfolk-gardens; you had a light coat on, and a dark one underneath it—I don't know whether the underneath one was the one you have on now—you walked up a little way when you took his watch and chain, and then ran—I went to the station the same night.

RICHARD WILKINSON . I am fourteen years old, and live at 5, New Innbroadway with my father—about 9 o'clock on 21st March, I was at Biggs's, the greengrocer's, with some other boys, and saw Mr. Masters come out of the New Inn—I saw a man take hold of the collar of his coat and sling him down in the road, and snatch his watch from his waistcoat—I see the man now; there he is—The prisoner).

Prisoner. Q. Which way did I got? A. Towards Bateman's-row—that is not Shoreditch way.

WILLIAM MILLER (Policeman, G 143). I took the prisoner in charge on a burglary to which he has pleaded guilty—when I got to the station I told him he would be also charged with highway robbery the night after he committed the burglary—he said, "If I had known that, you would have broke my head before you got me out of the house."

GUILTY . He also PLEADED GUILTY to a former conviction of felony, at Westminster, in August, 1860, in the name of George Jones; sentence Four Years' Penal Servitude.**†— Ten Years' Penal Servitude.

FOURTH COURT.—Saturday, April 15th, 1865.

Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-460
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty; Guilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment; Imprisonment

Related Material

460. WILLIAM THOMAS (60), and MARY ROGERS (55) , Stealing 2 pewter measures, the property of John Henry Leggatt, and 4 pewter measures, the property of George Hughes; to which MARY ROGERS

PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Six Days.

MR. MOORE conducted the Prosecution.

WILLIAM SAMUEL LESSON . I am an auctioneer's porter—on 23d February, about half-past 12, I went into the Crown and Anchor, Ropemaker-street Finsbury-pavement—the prisoners were there—Rogers went out at one door, and Thomas at another—they met in Ropemaker-street, and went into Mr. Leggatt's, the Globe Stores—I went in also, and called for a pint of beer—the prisoners were drinking together—I saw Rogers take up one of the pint pots and go out—I told the barman.

EDWARD KELSELL . I am foreman to Mr. Leggatt, of the Globe Stores—on 23d February, the last witness told me we had lost some pots—I got over the counter and caught the prisoners outside—I took a pot from under Rogers's arm—it was my employer's.

WILLIAM POTTS (City-policeman, 135) I saw Kelsell come out of the public-house in a hurried manner—he told me the prisoners had got two of his employer's pots—I saw Rogers try to pass a pot to a female, who said, "I shall have nothing to do with it"—I caught hold of the pot, and asked her if she had got any more—she said, "Yes, "and pulled two more pots from her dress pocket, and afterwards she took three more from her person—I took the prisoners to the station—on the way Rogers said, "Why do you not go and take my husband I he is in the public-house now, drinking; this man I never saw before in my life"—the male prisoner gave the name of William Thomas—Rogers refused her name and address—I found on Thomas an envelope, addressed "3, Elizabeth-terrace, Bethnal-green"—I went there and found this metal (produced).

ELIZABETH ROBERTS . I lived with the prisoners at No. 3, Elizabethterrace for six months—they are man and wife, and their name is Smith—I did not know them as William Thomas and Mary Rogers—they lived together as man and wife.

THOMAS GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months ,

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-461
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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461. GEORGE HART (37) , Stealing 1 pair of trousers and 2 1/2 yards of cloth, the property of Richard Beal.

MR. MARE conducted the Prosecution.

GEORGE FENDON . I manage the business of Mr. Richard Beal, of 173, Bishopsgate-street—on 3d March, between 3 and 4 o'clock, the prisoner came in and asked to see Mr. Beal—I told him he was not in—he left a parcel, and said he would call in a few minutes for it—he came back, and I saw him take up a piece of cloth from the shelf and put it under his coat—he walked up and down the shop several times, and snatched a pair of trousers from the rails and put them under his coat also—he went out of the shop and I followed him—he could not see me in the shop; I was con-cealed under the counter—I stopped him in the street, a policeman came up, and I gave him in charge, and told the policeman to feel under his coat—he did so, and found about fifteen yards of cloth and the trousers.

WILLIAM WILLS (City-policeman, 611). On 3d March, I took the prisoner, and found a pair of trousers under his coat—he dropped a piece of cloth—when he was taken back to the shop he said it was a mistake.

GUILTY .*— Confined Twelve Months.

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-462
VerdictsGuilty > pleaded guilty; Not Guilty > unknown

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462. GUSTAVE DRASDA (25) , Stealing 500 pictures, the property of Frederick Zarn, his master; and IVIDORE WEIL (22), feloniously receiving the same; to which

DRASDA PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Eighteen Months.

MR. COLLINS conducted the Prosecution, and MR. METCALFE defended WEIL.

FREDERICK ZARN . I am a wholesale printseller, of 120, London-wall—Drasda has been in my employment for two years, as salesman in the print department—part of his duty was to enter in a book all the prints that were sold by him—on the afternoon of 17th March, Weil came in about 4 o'clock—he went upstairs into the print-room to Drasda, and stayed about five or ten minutes, and came down without having bought anything—I asked him to step up again, and see if he could not find something that would suit him—he did so, and bought something of the value of a shilling—several prints were shown him, but he said he had no use for them—while he was upstairs I sent for a policeman—he came downstairs, and I called him into my counting-house, and told him that I had heard that hundreds of my prints had been sold by him at a much less price than I had sold them for—I asked him whether he had got those prints from any one in my employ—I mentioned Gustave Drasda's name—he said he had never had anything to do with any of my men, and had not received any goods of Drasda—he would not, tell me where he got the prints from—I called Drasda down, and told him what I had heard about the prints—he denied knowing anything about them—afterwards he said he had stolen 500 prints, and some paintings, and that Weil had received the prints, and the paintings were at his lodgings—Weil then said he bad bought them of Drasda, and had paid for them—Drasda lodged in Wenlock-street, Hoxton—I went with Baker, the police-officer, there, and found four paintings—we afterwards went to Weil's lodgings, at 28, Gloucester-street, Bloomsbury, and found there about 100 prints which had come from my warehouse—they were in a box, which was locked—to customers like Weil, I should sell these prints at 3s. a dozen; that would be about 25s. per hundred—if a large quantity was taken they would be 21s. a 100—a single hundred would be 22s. 6d.—Weil was a customer of mine—he never bought more than twenty-five at a time.

Cross-examined. Q. How many times has Weil bought from you yourself? A. I could not say; it may be half a dozen—this class of prints are always of a uniform price—the lowest price I have sold these prints at is 20s. 6d., to Mr. Le Visconte—I did not always give a receipt for small quantities—I had been in communication with Baker before—he advised me to employ the attorney in this matter—the attorney's name is Munday.

MR. COLLINS. Q. How many did Le Visconte buy at a time? A. I believe he has bought more than 10,000 of me altogether—it was the large quantity that induced me to sell them to him at a less price.

CHARLES BAKER (City-policeman). About 4 o'clock on 17th March, I was sent for to Messrs. Zarn's—Weil and Mr. Zarn were in the counting-house—I told Weil that I was a detective, and I asked him where he got those prints from that he sold to Mr. Le Visconte, in Commercial-street, and also to Mr. Alba—he said he had bought and paid for them—I asked him where, but he would not tell me—I then asked him if he had bought any prints of either of Mr. Zarn's servants—he said, "No"—Drasda was then sent for—I told him I was a police-officer—I asked him if he had ever taken any prints home from his master's premises—he said, "Yes; I will tell the truth; I am very sorry; I have taken 500 hunting prints, and sold them to Well"—he said he sold them for 17s. 6d. a hundred—Weil said it was true:

he had bought the prints and paid for them—I went to 28, Gloucester-street, Bloomsbury, Weil's lodgings, and there I found these 110 prints (produced) in a box, locked.

Cross-examined. Q. Did you ask Weil a great many questions? A. Yes; hut I could not understand half what he said—he spoke in German sometimes—I recommended the attorney in this case—I am very often asked to do so—I do not always recommend Mr. Munday—I am not in partnership with him, and I never received any fee whatever—I believe his office is in Basinghall-street.

JOHN LE VISCONTE . I am a picture seller and picture frame maker in Commercial-street, Spitalfields—I have known Weil about eighteen months—in January he brought me 300 prints, for which I paid him either 19s. 6d. or 1l. a hundred, and in the beginning of February he brought me 200 more—I paid him 19s. for them—I gave some of them to Baker—Weil sold me 500 altogether—sometime after I bought them I made a communication to MR. Zarn—Weil called on me again and asked me if I would buy any more prints—I said, "No; do not come here again with your prints"—he asked me what reason I had to tell Mr. Zarn I had bought the pictures—I said I had a good reason to do so.

Cross-examined. Q. I suppose you gave a fair price for those pictures? A. Yes; I consider so—I have paid as much as a guinea—I have bought some prints at 16s. a hundred, but not the same subject as these.

SOLOMON ALBA .—I am an importer of prints—I know Weil, he called on me in March with samples of prints, different subjects—I gave him an order for 300—I paid him 19s. a hundred—I consider that a fair price—I only bought those 300 of him—I delivered up 286 of those to the officer—I frequently buy prints—I have bought them as low as 16s. or 17s. a hundred—I am sorry to say you can buy them almost at any price—it depends upon the quantity in the market.

MARY COLLINS . I am the wife of John Collins, of 8, Wenlock-Street—Drasda lodged at my house about seven months—he occupied one room there—I know Weil by sight—I used to open the door to him—he used to ask for Mr. King, that is the name Drasda went by.

THEODORE BUNGAY . I am a clerk in the prosecutor's employ—it was my duty to check all goods as they came down stairs from the print-room—I have known Weil as a customer for the last twelve months—he used to buy prints of the description produced—he never bought more than twenty-five at a time, and he has not bought more than 300 altogether—he paid at the rate of 22s. 6d. per hundred for them.

Cross-examined. Q. Were you always present when the sales were effected? A. I was very seldom away—I do not sell the goods, Drasda sells them—I used to enter in a book what Drasda told me—whether he has sold more than he has told me I cannot tell.

WEIL received a good character. NOT GUILTY .

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-463
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

Related Material

463. SAMUEL O'DELL(17) , Assaulting George Henley, with intent to rob him.

GEORGE HENLEY . I live at 13, Britannia-row. Essex-road, Islington, and am in the employ of Mr. Morris, 52, Essex-road—about five minutes past 12 on the morning of 1st April I went to Britannia Row and met my cousin, William Halls—we turned round Britannia Row, and stopped to read a playbill—the prisoner, and another young man, bigger than himself, came across the road and caught hold of me by the throat—they did not appear to be

tipsy—he said, "This is the b——, your money or your life "I said, "I have not got any, "and he knocked my head against the boards three times—he said, "Take that, "and hit me in the eye—the other man caught hold of me—I got away—they ran after me, and the other man knocked me down and put his hand in my right pocket—my week's wages were in my left pocket—a man was coming down the street; some people were calling from their windows, and they ran away—I told a policeman and described the men—he took the prisoner in charge—I next saw him opposite the postoffice in the Lower-road.

WILLIAM HALLS . I live at 50, Britannia-road—I was with my cousin on 1st April—we stopped to read a play-bill, when the prisoner and another man came in front of us—they made a rush at my consin—the prisoner said, "This is the b——, "and knocked his head against the boards—the prisoner kicked me on the legs and hit me over the forehead, which knocked me down—I am sure he is one of the men.

WILLIAM REID . (Policeman, N 428). From information I received I took the prisoner at half-past 10 o'clock on Sunday morning—I told him I should take him for an assault, with intent to rob—he said he was at Bag-nigge-wells at the time.

GUILTY .**— Five Years* Penal Servitude.

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-464
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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464. HENRIETTA WALTERS and ELIZA NICHOLS, Stealing a box containing 12s. of George Lee, from his person.

GEORGE LEE . I live at 12, Allen-street, Lambeth—on 26th March, about half-past 12, I was going down the Westminster-road, between the Obelisk and the Catholic Chapel, I was surrounded by two men and two women—one of the men put his arms round my throat and his knee in the small of my back, and the other put his hands in my pocket—the man by ray side struck me on the eye, and the woman struck me also—I was kicked on the knee and abdomen—they almost disabled me, I feel the pains now very much—I was knocked down—I saw a policeman coming, and the men and women run away—I saw the policeman take the women—I never lost sight of them—my tobacco-box, containing 12s. was safe before this.

HENRY MILLER . (Policeman, L 108). I was on duty in Westminsterbridge-road, standing at the corner of James-street—I saw the two men and two women assault Lee—they could not see me—I ran after them—Lee was on the ground—I took the women into custody, the men escaped—I did not lose sight of them from the first time I saw them—Lee had a black eye, and complained of being kicked.

GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months ,

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-465
VerdictGuilty > unknown

Related Material

465. WILLIAM GLAZIER (29) , Burglariously breaking and entering in the dwelling-house of Bracebridge Heyming, with intent to steal.

MR. MOORE conducted the Prosecution, and MR. HARRIS the Defence.

HENRY TOWNSLEY . I am a printer—last Saturday I had charge of Mr. Heymings' house, at Hampton—I left it between 10 and 11 to go for my supper beer—two dogs were there—I had to go about 150 yards for the beer—I am quite sure I secured the house before I left—I was absent about three quarters of an hour—when I returned I found the garden-gate locked—I went round by the stables and saw the prisoner coming down the stairs—I have known him about two years, and said, "Glazier, you scoundrel, what do you do here?"—he made no reply—he had a lamp in his hand, which he put on the table, and threw himself out at the kitchen window into the garden—I caught him by one leg, and held him until he hurt my

hand, and I was obliged to let him go—I saw him get up and run across the railway, in the direction of his house, which was about 250 yards off—I saw him distinctly when he came down stairs with the lamp.

Cross-examined. Q. Are you a little blind? A. I can see distinctly with one eye—I went to the World's End public-house with the woman who was living in the house with me—we returned between 11 and 12—I did not stop there to play at cards, I only bad a glass of ale—I left the two dogs loose, one was following the prisoner down stairs—he was a ferocious dog, but he knew the prisoner.

LOUISA MARTIN . I am in Mr. Heymings' service—on Saturday evening, 8th April, I went out and returned with Townsley—I think it was past 11 when we left the house—we went to a public-house—I had some ale—as we were going into the public-house the prisoner was coming out—we stayed there about twenty minutes—Mr. Townsley's sister, Mrs. Smith, was also with us—when we returned the gate was locked, and I saw a light upstairs—we could not get in at the gate, and had to jump over the fence—as we opened the front-door the prisoner was coming down stairs with the drawing-room lamp in his hand—I heard Townsley say, "Glazier, you scoundrel, what do you do here?—I had seen the prisoner before, he had been to my master to get employment—the gate was unlocked when we left, and the key was in it.

Cross-examined. Q. Had Mr. Townsley been drinking very much? A. No; he had only had a glass of ale.

JOHN WHITE. (Policeman, V 272.) I know James Davis, V 26, who has this charge in hand—he is too ill to leave his bed—I saw him this morning, and I produce a medical certificate—I was present when the prisoner was examined before the Magistrate—I heard James Davies examined—(Davies deposition was here read as follows:—"I went to Glazier's house, which is about a quarter of a mile from Mr. Heymings' house—the prisoner was standing outside his house—I told him what he was charged with, and he said he knew nothing about it—he asked me to allow him to go in doors for his slop; he had nothing on but his trousers and shirt—I went with him into the house, and directly he got in he became very violent and seized hold of me round the neck, when a railway-porter, named Mills, came to my assistance—he struck Mills a very severe blow in his face—several other constables came up, and we got him to the station—I received several kicks.")

JOHN HENRY MILLS . I am a railway-porter, and reside at Hampton—I was with Davies last Saturday, and assisted in taking the prisoner to the station—what I have just heard read is quite correct, as far as I beard it before the Magistrate.

COURT. Q. Did you notice whether the prisoner had any cuts about him? A. He had a cut on his forehead—it was bleeding at the time.

GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months.

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-466
VerdictGuilty > unknown

Related Material

466. HENRY LOCK (25) , Stealing one bag, two books, half a pound of tea, and ten shillings in copper money, the property of Robert Morrison.

MR. BESLEY conducted the Prosecution, and MR. WOOD the Defence.

ROBERT MORRISON . I am a licensed hawker—on 6th April I was at the Railway-hotel, Shepperton, and stayed there about a quarter of an hour—I left about 9 o'clock—I had my pack and a carpet-bag, in which were three account books, half a pound of tea, a pair of trousers, half-a-crown, ten shillings in coppers, and several other articles—when I left I saw Lock standing at

the bar—I had got about a quarter of a mile on the road to Leylam—some one came behind me and pushed ray pack off my back and ran away with the bag which I was carrying with a stick over my shoulder—I saw the prisoner's face—I went back to the inn, left my pack, and then went to the station—I met a constable, who went back with me to the hotel—the prisoner was standing at the bar—I saw the bag there—I examined it, and found 9s. 9 1/2 d. of the copper money gone—I charged the prisoner with the robbery, and gave him in custody—he took off his coat and said that no one policeman should take him—his coat was examined, and between 7s. and 8s. in coppers found upon him—I went with the constable to the police-station—on the road there the prisoner said, if I would make it up he would treat me to wine and give me a sovereign—he took some copper money out of his pocket and threw away—I was sober, and the prisoner appeared to be so.

Cross-examined. Q. Did you know the prisoner? A. No; I had never seen him before, he was drinking at the bar—he might have been very lively and jocular, but I did not take any notice—some "chaffing" was going on.

COURT. Q. Was this a dark night? A. No; it was moonlight—I should think it was three quarters of an hour after he knocked the pack off my back, that I saw him at the Railway-hotel.

DAVID CONNOR . (Policeman, V 327.) I was on duty in the Charlton-road, Shepperton, on Thursday, 6th April—about half past 10 the prosecutor came to me—I went with him to the Railway-hotel and saw the prisoner standing at the bar—he was given into custody—he said it was all right—I told him he would have to go to the station with me—he threw off his coat, and said there was no one policeman could take him to the station, and put himself into a fighting attitude—I found 7s. 7 1/2 d. in copper money in the pockets of his coat—he resisted so much that I was obliged to send for another constable to assist me—on the way to the station he threw away some copper money—he said to the prosecutor, "If you will settle this with me I will treat you to some wine, and give you a sovereign."

COURT. Q. Did you see the carpet-bag when you went to the inn? A. Yes; the prosecutor had it in his hand—he went in before me—he said if he could recover his money he would not give the man in custody.

Cross-examined. Q. Have you known the prisoner for some years? A. Yes; seven years—he has been convicted of assaults on the police—he was sober.

CHARLES PARKER . (Policeman, V 241.) I assisted Connor in taking the prisoner to the station—he had been drinking, but was quite sober, and knew what he was doing—I came back by the road next morning, and found 10 1/2, in coppers, which had been thrown in the road.

GUILTY .— Confined Six Months.

OLD COURT.—Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday, April 17th, 18th, 19th, 20th, 1865.

Before Mr. Justice Smith.

10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-467
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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467. JOSEPH WAKEFLELD TERRY (42), and THOMAS BURCH (32), were indicted for unlawfully conspiring to publish a certain false balance-sheet of the affairs of the Unity Bank, with intent to defraud the shareholders.


conducted the Prosecution, MR. SERJEANT PARRY with MESSRS. SLEIGH and NICHOLSON defended Terry, MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE with MR. METCALFE defended Burch.

MR. SERJEANT PARRY (before plea) called upon the Prosecution to elect upon which Counts of the indictment they would proceed; there were twentyseven Counts, the first twenty-three charging a false making and publishing of accounts, and the remaining four charging a conspiracy: the Grand Jury had ignored the first twenty-three as regarded Burch, and he therefore called upon the Prosecution to abandon those counts as to Terry or to withdraw altogether from the prosecution of Burch. As an authority for his application he cited Q. v. Murphy and Douglas, 8 Car. and Payne, 297. MR. SERJEANT Ballantine was also heard in support of the application, and MR. GIFFARD in opposition.

MR. JUSTICE SMITH was of opinion that the prosecution must elect. Mr. Giffard elected to proceed on the four Counts for conspiracy. The Defendants under the advice of their Counsel, declining to plead, a plea of.

NOT GUILTY was directed by the Court to be entered.

OSWALD THOMAS BLOMFIELD HOWELL . I am a partner in the firm of Walker and Howell, of 40, Broad-street Buildings—I am accountant to the Liquidators of the Unity Bank—I produce the charter of that bank, dated 9th January, 1856—I have here the minutes of the appointment of the two defendants respectively—Mr. Terry was appointed manager on 18th August, 1857—there is no resolution on the minutes appointing him; there is only a reference to it, on 18th August—Mr. Burch had formerly been a clerk in the bank, and so had Mr. Terry; I think Mr. Terry was the accountant—Mr. Burch was appointed secretary on 23d January, 1861—he had acted in the capacity of secretary previous to that appointment—I produce the original transcript of the balance-sheet of 30th June, 1862, the balance-sheet, and the detailed balance-sheet; it is in Mr. Burch's writing—it shows a nett balance of profit on the half year of 3, 215l. 7s.—I have carefully gone through the books for the six months previously, and there had been no profit made—there had been a loss then from the commencement of the bank of 130,000l.—there is an item in the balance-sheet (No. 3) of 207,000l. of assets made up of bills discounted, loans to customers, &c.—the bank had a customer of the name of Ollivier—he owed 419l. on the 30th of June, 1862—there were four dishonoured bills of Ollivier's for that amount—they were dishonoured in 1861—in the past-due bill-book these four bills are entered as past-due bills, and that is entered by Terry—opposite there is the word "forgery, "but there is nothing to show when that word was written—on the back of one of the dishonoured bills there is a receipt for a dividend of 2s. in the pound—that sum of 419l. was carried to the item of 207,000l.—in the committee minute-book of the 19th of February, 1861, there is an entry in Burch's handwriting to the effect that Ollivier should be prosecuted for forgery—Mr. Alderman Mechi and several other of the directors were present when that resolution was passed—in the Board minute-book of the following March, there is an entry also in Burch's handwriting to the effect that the board had resolved to offer a reward of 10l. for the apprehension of Ollivier—there are twenty-four dishonoured bills of T. Harrison and Co. in 1860 and 1861, amounting to 3, 760l., and these are entered in the past-due bill account from the general ledger as past-due bills—five of these bills amounting to up wards of 1,000l. are accepted by a person named Brock—there was a bankruptcy dividend upon them in November, 1861, of 1s. 3d. in the pound—that was the last dividend—the total dividend was 5s. 2d.—there are live other bills dishonoured by a Mr. Wright 1860, for upwards of 600l.—there were four dividends paid

upon these, amounting in all to 10s. in the pound—the last of these dividends was paid in October, 1860—there are two bills accepted by a Mr. Hartrey for 335l. and attached to them is a letter from Terry claiming a dividend upon this amount of 10s. in the pound—there are three bills accepted by Talleen for 528l.—he was to be let off the debt for 68l.—he gave two promissory notes for the 68l.; the first of which he paid, the second was dishonoured—the last date on which anything was received on Harrison's account was the 21st of November, 1861, and then there was a balance left of 1, 864l. which was carried into the 207,000l. in the balancesheetof June, 1862—there were dividends made in December, 1862, on this account of 182l.—the bank had customers of the names of Co well and Brock—they owed 3, 645l. in 1859, and in 1860 2,000l. was written off as lost, included in the 38,000l. which was written off the capital: after payments were made there was a balance owing of 1, 600l.; then, after the payment of certain securities, there was a balance of 226l.—upon that a dividend was paid, which reduced the debt to 148l. and this also was carried into the item of 207,000l.—the bank also had a customer named Lowenthal—on 30th June, 1862, Low-enthal owed the bank, in bills of exchange, 4, 635l. drawn by him principally on a man named Ironsides, and accepted by Ironsides, who was himself a debtor to the bank in the sum of 708l. which was written off as bad in December, 1860—that formed part of the 4, 635l.—the bill, to which I refer, was discounted about May or June, and not having matured, will be entered under the date at which it would mature—the bill of 30th June would appear on 11th September—they were running bills; they fell due at various dates—one of them matures on 11th February, 1862; the entry is "Lowen-thal on Ironsides, 200l."—it is scratched out with a pen and ink, a pen is put through, and the additions are altered in the book—this means bills coming due on 11th September—this other scratched out, does not indicate that the bill is dishonoured—the bills due either have been taken up or they would be in arrear—if a bill is taken out of the diary it is in consequence of an error having been committed, or to prevent it being accepted—in the one scratched out the alteration of the figures appears to be in Mr. Terry's writing, and the totals also—all the other bills of Ironsides have been treated in the same manner—they are not all written on erasures, but they are all written and scratched out afterwards—that would not prevent the bill from being presented, but it would enable the business of the bank to proceed without the bank discovering that the bill had been dishonoured—the totals are in Terry's writing—it appears that there is an amount subtracted from the day's work, and it is those figures that are in Terry's writing, but there is nothing to show that he altered the bills or scratched these particular figures out—it would not alter the figures in the books, but if there had been a larger total it might be that the total would have been copied into the day-book as cash received—these bills of Ironsides represent Lowen-thal's acceptances.

COURT. Q. The bills accepted by Ironsides were substitutions of other bills of Lowenthal's? A. Yes, they were substituted, and were not renewals, instead of A, B, and C renewing their bills they were substitutions; these bills had been discounted long before that—we have received a dividend since September, under item No. 3, by Lowenthal, of 1, 143l. since the bank closed, and there is a dividend lying at the Bankruptcy Court now on a small sum of 200l. which is not received—Mr. Lowenthal's own dividend is 8d. in the pound—there was an arrangement entered into in the beginning of 1864 with Lowenthal to pay 3s. in the pound; we received 3s. from him

as the total of his debt as we had let him out on a warrant of attorney; we can clear 8d. upon his bankruptcy—we received some small sums to make up the 1, 143l. from the London and Middlesex Bank, during the time it was in existence.

MR. LEWIS. Q. Had the bank a customer named Perl? A. Yes—on 30th June, 1862, he owed the bank 7, 270l. on 181 dishonoured bills, and an overdrawn account—about 1, 363l. represents the overdrawn account—those bills appear to have been dishonoured in 1861 and the beginning of 1862; before June, 1862—entries of those bills are in the past-due bills book in Burch's writing, and in the past-due ledger in Terry's writing; you may take it that it is always so; there is certainly one entry of Mr. Burch's, but that does not effect this question in any way—the whole of the entries in the past-due ledger are in Mr. Burch's writing—there is a trust-deed, dated 19th December, 1861, of Joseph Wakefield Terry, in Terry's writing—he conveys all his effects for the benefit of his creditors—he signed that for 2, 500l., but his signature may appear there on two occasions—the whole debt, including the 2, 500l., amounted to 2, 634l.—the amount of debt at that time was 8, 634l.—the bills had not matured; they were running—the amount of debt included running bills; it would be an actual debt notwithstanding—an estimate might be formed by Mr. Terry, and 2, 500l. might be the amount; he signed for 2, 500l.; the debt amounts to 8, 464l.—that includes the acceptance of a person named Conitz—those bills are all entered in the general ledger before June, 1862, and also in the past-due bills book; there is nothing to show at what date the entries in the past-due bills book were made, but in the general ledger they were all made before 30th June, 1862—at that time all the bills of Conitz and Perl, to which I have referred, had been dishonoured.

MR. SERJEANT PARRY. Q. In whose writing are the entries in that book? A. All but one in this book are Mr. Terry's, but in the general ledger they are in Mr. Burch's; they would be in the cash-article book, therefore it would be in Mr. Terry's.

MR. LEWIS. Q. Has that item been included in the amount? A. In item No. 3 the 1, 363l. appears in the books as subtracted from the amount due to customers on current and other accounts—we received a dividend from Perl's trustees on 2d December, 1863—we have received 1, 596l. altogether; that includes three sums of money which was out to the credit of Perl since the balance-sheet—he had four accounts in the customer's ledger, an account called No. 1 account; a loan account, a bill account, and also a general account—I had better refer to see whether they were in credit on 30th June—the dividend was on the whole amount of 7,000l.—I have heard of the circumstances connected with it—we received a dividend of 450l. from Perl's trustees; the other dividend brought the amount up to 1, 596l.—it was on the whole amount Frazi owed the bank 1, 410l., and I produce twenty dishonoured bills amounting to 1, 390l., dishonoured from 1859 to 1861—he also owed 168l. on an overdrawn account, which was caused by debiting some of the bills to his account; that is included in the 1, 390l.—in dealing with the two items, the amount of 1, 221l. is carried into the 201,000l., and the other is differently treated—this is the Board minute-book, folio 173, 28th Feb. 1862, "The solicitor having represented to the board that he had written to Mr. Frazi representing Batey's dishonoured bills, resolved that immediate steps be taken for Mr. Frazi's apprehension"—live directors were present; Mechi, Bower, Hayward, Eyre, and Malcolm; it it signed by Alderman Mechi—the sum due for dishonoured bills is the item No. 3; the 168l., overdrawn accouut, is deducted from No. 1.

COURT. Q. On what theory is that deducted? A. The general ledger only gives the balance of current accounts after the overdrawn accounts have been deducted, or father all the sums which are drawn out are deducted from the account, and when customers draw money out of the Bank and have no funds they reduce their amount, so that the reduced amount only appears—all the overdrawn accounts are due to them also; but in consequence of the books not being balanced, or from some oversight, the amount of the balance has been copied instead of the debt, being an increase of 13, 600l., and the overdrawn account is placed on the other side as an asset.

MR. SERJEANT PARRY. Q. That makes it equal? A. Yes; and you see the forged bills are taken as cash by being subtracted from the liabilities, the forged bills are debited to Frazi—I do not mean to say that Mr. Burch or MR. Terry ordered it to be subtracted, but there is an irregularity, the books not balancing—I do not know how much is due to the customers and how much is not—I am only speaking of the custom of books generally.

MR. LEWIS. Q. Had the bank also a customer named G. W. Hall? A. Yes—he owed the bank on 30th June, 1862, 3, 771l. 3s. 9d. on fortythree bills which I produce dishonoured, about the middle of 1861—the bank has since received 233l. 19s. 1d., and a further sum of 208l., making altogether 562l. which has to be deducted from the 3, 771l. now—that is included in item No. 3—the receipt for the dividend appears in the general ledger and in the past-due book; Hall did not pay any dividend before 30th June, but we received some small dividend from the acceptors which was afterwards carried into item No. 3.—the bank had also customers named Barclay and Co., they were indebted to the bank 1, 902l. on fourteen Bills Of Exchange which were dishonoured in 1860, that is not carried to No, 3, but a sum of 807l. was carried in—there was 1, 900l. due on bills after deducting dividends—the last dividend was received in November, 1861, 2 1/2 d. from Harper, and then a balance of 807l. was owing—Tiernan and Co. were also customers of the bank—they owed a balance of account in June, 1862—the amount of bills was 1, 540l., but in September, 1861 that current account was transferred to the credit of the past-due loan account on 2d December, 1861, leaving a balance of 929l., and that was carried to the item of 207,000l.—the bank had also a customer named Bunyard—he owed 5, 200l. on dishonoured bills and overdrawn account, that item is also included in the 207,000l.; but some of those bills, which were running in June, 1862, have been met since—a deed of assignment was made by Bun-yard in November, 1861, for 5, 239l.—in December, 1861, a sum of 966l. was advanced to Burn-yard by the bank, to replace two loans and a bill which had been dishonoured—there is no mention in the minute-book of that loan of 966l. 13s., nor is there any entry made of the deed of assignment, it has never been charged to the account, so it is an additional loss to the bank—Fowles and Co. were also customers of the bank, they were indebted in the sum of 437l. in dishonoured bills in June, 1862—those bills were dishonoured in 1859 and 1860—the names of Douglas and Co. appear as acceptors to two of them, who represented that they were forgeries—nothing was ever received On that account—Mr. Sterne was a customer of the bank—he owed in June, 1862, the sum of 2, 100l., that included 1, 095l. on a dishonoured check—the bills due on this account, amounting to 1, 900l., have since been all paid—the bills represented 1, 964l., but the acceptors met them—Knight was also a customer of the bank—he owed 2, 111l. in June, 1862—his draughts and bills were dishonoured principally in 1861, and they were exhibited in the Bankruptcy Court in February, 1862—Knight never paid any dividend, but

the acceptors paid 1572. in dividends, the last of which 5l. was paid by Mr. Taylor, in November, 1864—those bills were entered in the general ledger under the head of past-due bills—Mr. Ingledew was also a customer of the bank—in June, 1859, he owed 3, 750l., borrowed on the security of a ship, and on the 30th of June, 1862 he owed a balance of 183l. 6s. 4d., which was carried to No. 3.—only 1, 816l. was received on the sale of the ship, leaving a balance of 183l., no part of which has ever been received—the bank had customers named J. and A. King; they owed 949l. on 30th June, 1862, the bank holding some deeds of property at Dullingham, but there is a dispute now about the title, that also has been carried to the item of 207,000l.—John Harris was a customer of the bank on 30th June; he owed 1, 370l., that was included in the 207,000l.; that was the balance of a larger sum, it was left to cover an overdrawn account created by overdrawing other small bills which were dishonoured and charged to the current account, and subsequently a loan was granted for the exact sum, the past-due bills being previously charged to the account—I find no entry of that transaction having been before the Directors—there was no new advance, merely a credit given to cover it—Mr. Harris was paying off his debt by instalments at the time the balance-sheet was published; 10l. every fortnight or ten days—he did not fail till the middle of 1864—we received nearly 500l. afterwards, 300l. was received between January and May to reduce the 1, 300l.—the bank had also customers named Patteson and Miles, they owed 523l. which is carried into the item of 207,000l—the 523l. was the balance due upon dishonoured bills, which had been exhibited in the Court of Bankruptcy—since June, 1862, 35l. was paid in reduction of the 523l.—Jabez Wood was also a customer; he owed 1, 223l. in June, 1862, and that is all included in the 207,000l.—at that time Wood's running bills amounted to 800l.—there was a deed of assignment made by Wood to his creditors on the 4th of June, 1862—I produce the manuscript of the balance-sheet of June 30th, 1862, it is in Burch's handwriting—there is a more detailed sheet also in his handwriting—the former is an exact copy of the published balance-sheet; the latter is a copy of the totals, and was not published—accompanying the balance-sheet there is a report from the directors, dated 16th September, 1862 (read)—the report is signed by the chairman and was adopted by the meeting—the other balance-sheets of the bank, from its commencement down to 1862 are now in Court—up to 1860, the past-due bills appeared as a separate item—on 30th June, 1859, the loss on bills discounted is 38,000l.—then there is a profit and loss, old account 1, 601l., added making 39, 679l.—the next balance-sheet is 30th June, 1860; the loss on bills discounted 39, 679l. is brougbt forward on the credit side, and there is a sum transferred from the profit and loss which appears to have been made in the trading in the previous half-year of 1, 500l. as recommended by the report, leaving a balance of 38, 179l.—in the next balance-sheet of 31st December, 1860, on the debtor side, the capital is brought forward 179, 195l., and there is an entry underneath, "Less amount written off on account of loss per bills, discounted as by last report 38, 119l. in the balance-sheet;" sometimes it appears as" past-due bills, "and sometimes as" losses on bills discounted"—I find in December, 1857, "Past-due bills, 40, 559l."on the credit side of the balance-sheet—there is a little * against the item and a note at the bottom, "of this amount the directors feel confident that 11,000l. will be received"—the past-due bills on 30th June, 1858, is 37, 770l. 14s. 5d. that is without the note—on 31st December, 1858, the past due bills are 36, 863l. 18s. 10d., and it appears that the bank made a loss of 2, 615l. 6s. 9d.

it is brought forward on the credit side—it showed the true position of the bank, that it had made a loss—a dividend of 10s. per share is recommended—I don't see that the report recommends the 38,000l. to be written off, but it was written off and the reduced amount of capital is subsequently placed—I have looked at all the balance-sheets, and no such item appears in any of them down to 1862—on 25th January, 1861 there is a resolution stating that the loss as shown in previous balance-sheets was now written off the capital account—on the same day I see there is a resolution appointing Mr. Burch secretary—I found this paper among the papers of the bank; it appears to be a rough balance-sheet of December, 1860—it is in Mr. Burch's writing—it contains "losses on bills in suspense, chief office—old, 10, 585l., ditto new, 3, 504l."—the words "old" and "new" are erased—both those items are carried into item No. 3 in the balance-sheet of June, 1862—there were dividends received on them in the meantime, but there is a difficulty in tracing them because the credits were not passed in the proper way—in round numbers, about 2,000l. of dividend has been received altogether—Mr. Sykes was the manager of the west-end branch of the bank; Mr. Humphreys owed that branch a certain amount—the past-due bills at that branch amounted to 7, 790l., and the overdrawn accounts came to 3,000l.—both these sums are included in the item of 207,000l. in the balance-sheet of June, 1862, as issued by the head-office—there was a check for 50l. paid to Morgan in error, which is also included in the 207,000l., and a lost 10l. note is included in the same item—in April, 1861, a remittance of 73l. 13s. 11d. was lost in its transmission from the head-office to the west-end branch, and that is also included in the 207,000l.—the cash actually in band at the bank on the 30th of June, 1862, was 29, 680l. 4s. 5d., and uncleared checks 6, 245l. 17s. 8d.—there was a deficiency of 50l. 10s". in the cash on the 30th of June which turned out to be a bill received of Perls, of which an entry is made, "less error, 50l. 10s." to make the day-book balance.

Q. What do you give as the cash actually in hand? A. 29,000l., but these were uncleared cheques which had not been presented at the bankers, payable next day—the difference between the cash in hand and the bills, consisted of a dishonoured bill of Perls for 88l., a cheque which had been carried through from day to day on Coutts'—some of these books had to be marked, "Query forgery"—the small amounts were not cash in reality, the difference consisted of bills which were worthless, some as high as 140l. and a cheque for 1, 095l.—they are in the cash-article book—those were improper documents to take as cash, they were almost entirely worthless.

MR. SERJEANT PARRY. Q. There were documents to that amount, but you did not treat them as cash? A. No banker would treat them as cash—I never saw the 1, 095l. cheque, but I believe there were documents to represent it—I was not in the country at that time.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. Have you a great number of dishonoured bills there which go into item No. 3? A. Yes; dishonoured bills and overdue loans to the tune of 50,000l.—bills dishonoured before 30th June at the West-end branch and the chief-office, including those I have specifically mentioned—it is from 50,000l. to 70,000l.—I will say over 50,000l., I do not wish to exaggerate—that is, after deducting the dividends secured both before and after.


Tuesday, April 18.

OSWALD THOMAS BLOMFIELD HOWELL (continued). On 3d March, 1862 I find a payment of 200l. by Terry to a Mr. S. Sterne—I am now referring to "the account of Mr. Terry;"it is in the writing of one of the clerks—on

6th March there is an entry of 70l.; on 8th, 150l.; on 10th, 100l.; on 28th, 500l.; on 24th, 750l.; on 31st, 10l.; on 3d April, 150l.; on 16th May, 100l.; on 19th, 100l.; on 2d June, 105l.; 3d., 600l.; 10th, 152l. 16s. 4d.; 13th, 210l.; 19th, 150l.; 3d July, 107l. on 11th April, 1862 I find three items of 5l. 12s. 6d. each, to Burch, Sterne, and Self; I am referring to the customer's ledger—here is a cheque for 55l. on 17th May, from Terry to Burch—the Unity Bank had closed at that time; these cheques are on the London and Middlesex Bank, its successor—here are two cheques, one in favour of S. Sterne and the other in favour of T. Burch for 20l. each, dated 9th March, 1863, the word "Scinde" is on both. The item No. 1, "amount due on current accounts" should have been 173, 037l. 7s. 3d. on 30th June, 1862—in order to arrive at the sum of 159,000l., 13, 647l. of overdrawn accounts appears to have been deducted—that includes all the overdrawn accounts; that leaves 159,000l.—if the 173,000l. had been put on the debtor side and the 13, 647l. on the creditor's side it would have come exactly to the same thing in point of results—item No. 3 ought to have been 157,000l.; that includes nearly 20,000l. of bad bills and loan losses at the Western-branch; there is a report of the past-due bills at the Western-branch, which with the other cheques was handed to me on or about 9th February, 1864 by the defendants; a messenger brought the documents over from the chief-office—these papers are in Mr. Sykes' writing—I have a book here purporting to be an account of bad debts, that is in Burch's writing, some of the figures are Terry's; it contains debts from 1859 to 1862, good, doubtful and bad—there is no entry in this of Bunyard's debt.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT PARRY. Q. Will you turn to the account of Harrison and Co., and tell me what amount of dealings they had with the bank altogether? A. The discount account begins on 13th July, 1859, and closes on 27th July, 1861—the amount is about 15,000l., including renewals, and they seemed to have been charged 7 1/2 per cent, discount, which was about the average value of money during the period—the amount of transactions with Cowell and Brock was about 13,000l., and it resulted in a loss of 148l. only to the bank; but during the management of Mr. Chambers there had been a loss of 2,000l. upon the same account—an arrangement was made with Lowentbal that he was to be charged ten per cent, interest, but five percent, was returned to him; this all appears in the books—the transactions with Lowenthal amounted to 40,000l.—the five percent was not returned to him, but went to pay off an old debt that was due to the bank—without a close examination, however, it would appear that he was paying ten per cent for discount—the transactions with Perl amounted to 23, 900l.—in Bunyard's case the amount was 41, 981l. for discount, and 5,000l. for loans; Fowles and Co. was 17, 197l. discount, and 1, 300l. loans—there were several very large accounts, amounting to many thousands of pounds, and extending over many years, all the accounts appeared to have been regularly entered in the proper books—there were about a hundred books kept for the purposes of the bank; but the general ledger, when posted up, would show the actual position of the bank—the balance-sheets were all made up from this ledger—upon several of the bills there are the names of intermediate endorsers, besides that of the customer, and they would, of course, be liable to the bank—the word "forgery" appears to have been written in pencil against three of the bills—I have no means of ascertaining at what period this word was written, although in the ordinary course of business I suppose that it would have been written the moment the forgery was discovered—Bunyard executed a

trust-deed for the benefit of his creditors which was signed by Terry, for 5, 209l.—I am aware that Mr. Sterne has since made an arrangement with his creditors to pay twenty shillings in the pound; but the bank would not have any advantage from this arrangement, because they had already given him a full release—there has been a final loss of 600l.—I have acted as accountant for Mr. Sterne—I believe the arrangement is a bona fide one, and will be carried out—when Mr. Terry was under examination before the liquidators, he explained that the reason why Mr. Sterne wished to have his account transferred to that of Mr. Terry was that he was in some dispute with his partner, and he was afraid the money would be attached if the account were kept in his own name-various payments have been made, since this balance-sheet was published, that would reduce the balance by 6,000l. or 7,000l. The item, No. 1, in the balance-sheets always appeared in the same way, so for as I can ascertain, but improperly so—the bank always debited themselves with a reserve-fund for losses—on the 14th of May there was a board-meeting, at which the list of overdrawn accounts was taken into consideration, and it was resolved that they should be scrutinized, and that such accounts as were considered irrecoverable should be written off, and proceedings taken to reduce the amount of the remainder—that was done, as appears by the minute of a subsequent board-meeting—in the balance-sheet of 30th April, 1857, here is, "Bills discounted, loans to customers, and other securities, 185, 253l. 9s. 10d"—I can only guess as to whether the post-due bills are included in that, there is no such item, but I believe 11,000l. for post-due bills is included in that—at that time Mr. Chambers was manager, and both the defendants were clerks under him—I believe that Mr. Chambers introduced Mr. Terry to the bank—(Looking at the general ledger)—on 2d May, 1857, there were 9,000l. of past-due bills at the chief-office, and 2,000l. at the branches—the bank paid 23, 648l. 2s. 6d. for preliminary expenses, the first year they commenced business—besides this, they made bad debts to the amount of 11,000l., and in the first two years their losses were over 38,000l.—at the time that Mr. Chambers resigned there was a large amount of bad bills in existence, but they had not then arrived at maturity—this 38,000l. was written off as bad debts on December 31st, 1860—33,000l. appeared to have been lost while Mr. Chambers was manager—Alderman Mechi was the governor of the bank—in the first year the bank begin business, he borrowed 23, 863l.,—he always paid the Bank of England rate of interest—a gentleman named Baylis was paid 6,000l. for promotion-money—that was included in the preliminary expenses—he was also to have had 1,000l. a year as manager for life, but the matter was compromised for 3,000l.—Alderman Mechi originally had a salary of 500l. a year as governor; but when the bank got into difficulties, he gave up the remuneration—MR. Eyre was an original director, Mr. Bower was not—at the first meeting I find the names of Tayloe, Stone, Eyre, Baylis, and Mechi—the names are incorporated in the charter—Mr. Hay ward was one—besides the 32, 528l. and the loan to Mr. Mechi of 23,000l., Mr. Galand borrowed money—the bank never made a profit in any half-year, but most of the balance-sheets show a profit—by the first year's balance-sheet a profit was shown, of 2, 400l., but that included the past-due bills—nearly the whole of the subsequent half-year's balance-sheets showed profits, and those balance-sheets were published by the chairman and directors to the public—the directors received in fees altogether 2, 987l., and other sums intrusted to them by way of gratuities by the shareholders—there was one vote of 500l. and one of 250l. in addition to that—they were votes expressing confidence they drew

the 250l. out after the bank was closed—at that time, there was a general deficiency in the capital of the bank of 135,000l.; but there was a period of about four years when they did not take anything, believing the bank to be in an unsound state—the interest upon the loan of 23,000l. to Mr. Alderman Mechi was debited to his account regularly; but there is an entry in the books showing that in September, 1863, eighteen months' interest was due upon this loan—Alderman Mechi's firm of Mechi and Bazin kept an account at the bank, but the Alderman himself had no private account—that account was overdrawn in January, 1862, the half-year to which this balance-sheet relates, to the amount of 400l. or 500l.—that account was continually overdrawn—in March, 1856, a resolution was agreed to by the directors that no director should be allowed to overdraw his account—Mr. Bazin, Alderman Mechi's partner, had a private account at the Western branch, and during the year 1861 that account was sometimes overdrawn, and sometimes it was in credit—Mr. Bazin had an account at the West-end branch, which was overdrawn on two occasions—the firm of Mechi and Bazin also had a trade account with the Western branch, which was also occasionally overdrawn—Mr. Bazin also had loans from time to time from the bank to the amount of 3, 900l. on his own private account—Alderman Mechi also occasionally borrowed other sums besides the 23,000l. from the bank—I should say about 1,000l. or 1, 500l. at any one time—there were fifteen or twenty such borrowings of 600l. each, and sometimes 720l.—sometimes the money went into his own account, and sometimes into MR. Bazin's—between September, 1859, and 5th August, 1862, the total amount borrowed by Mechi and Bazin was 7, 500l. over and above the 23,000l.—he owed that enormous sum when he took the 250l. fees—Mr. Deputy Bower, another of the directors, also kept an account—he became a director in 1857—he borrowed money from the bank to the amount altogether of 44, 500l. between that period and 6th May, 1862—he did not have it all at one time, and he generally kept a large sum lying idle at the bank—Mr. Hay ward, another director, borrowed 2,000l. in February, 1860—Mr. Eyre was one of the directors from the beginning, and a bill of his for 1, 500l. seemed to have not been paid, and to have been passed through the accounts—I could not say whether it was a dishonoured bill—it was in November, 1859, included among the past-due bills, but it was ultimately paid—Mr. Eyre also had loans from the bank between June 19th, 1857, and July 1862, to the amount of 16,000l., but never more than 2,000l. at one time—Major Mulkern was one of the directors—he had loans to the amount of 4, 500l.—his son also borrowed from the bank about 11,000l. or 12,000l.—at the time of the balance-sheet of June 1862, the directors owed the bank about 26,000l., but 23, 600l. of this amount was owing by Alderman Mechi, and the firm of Mechi & Bazin owed 1,000l. besides—200l. was owing by MR. Martin Mulkern, 200l. by Mr. Robert Galand, 800l. by Mr. Eyre, and Alderman Mechi 23,000l.: Mr. Martin Mulkern was the director—during the whole existence of the bank the directors owed the bank about 30,000l., and they paid a lower amount of interest than the other customers; and during the first year the bank rediscounted bills with the Bank of England to the amount of 85,000l., and sometimes more—I do not know whether they would have had to pay 1l. percent interest on these bills for rediscounting—they rediscounted at the Bank of England in 1857 to the amount of 80,000l. or 90,000l.—they also rediscounted with Overend, Gurney, & Co., and sometimes they paid one, and sometimes a half, over the bank-rate—I remember the letter of Mr. Eyre, of 26th August, 1857, calling the attention

of the directors to the condition of the bank, and after that there was frequently as much as 30,000l. out in loans to the directors—on the 13th of September, 1856, it appears by the minutes of the board, that Alderman Mechi issued a letter to the shareholders, in which he said that every depositor might have his money returned if he pleased; that the 150,000l. capital called up remained intact; that the bank had no doubtful or uncon-vertible securities; and that the business was carried on in the most legitimate manner—at a subsequent meeting, the board came to the resolution that the manager should furnish a list every week of the names of persons who had overdrawn their accounts, and also a statement of all dishonoured bills, that they might be handed to the solicitor, for him to take legal proceedings upon them, and that the resolution should apply to the Leicestersquare and other branches—weekly books have been kept according to those directions—on 13th November, 1856, there is an entry to the effect that "the assets and liabilities of the bank have been examined with the general ledger"—Mr. Eyre, Mr. Hay ward, and Mr. Bruce were present at this meeting—at a subsequent board meeting of January, 1, 1858, at which Aldermen Mechi, Mr. Bower, Mr. Hayward, Mr. Mulkern, and Mr. Eyre were present, resolutions were passed that at the weekly board meeting all the bills offered for discount during the preceding week should be submitted to the directors, and that once every month one of the directors should count the cash in the till, and see that it agreed with the entry in the books—if there was a statement in the weekly accounts of "cash in hand, "and the directors had performed their duty, they would have been able to see whether the amount in the till agreed with the amount in the book—on 16th April, 1858, Messrs. Mechi, Howard, Bower, and Mulkern were, present, and a letter was read from Mr. Turner, calling attention to the account of Levi, Heath, & Co.—by the committee-book of 27th April, 1858, the solicitor was to furnish a quarterly report of all matters of business in his hands—Mr. Tayloe was the solicitor to the bank—he was not examined before the Lord Mayor—by the board minute-book of 21st May, 1858, I find, "Present, Messrs. Mechi, Bower, Eyre, Hayward, and Mulkern. Attention having been directed to the list of overdrawn accounts at the chief office, it was resolved that the list be sanctionized, and such as are irrecoverable be written off, and that application be made for payment of such as are above a month's standing and are recoverable"—on the 14th of July, 1858, there is a minute, "The report and balance-sheet to be presented to the shareholders at the second annual meeting, on the 16th mat, was discussed and decided on"—at this board meeting Alderman Mechi, Mr. Bower, Mr. Eyre, Mr. Mulkern, and Mr. Hayward were present—on the 7th January, 1859, the directors expressed a wish to have "a report from Mr. Tayloe of the matters in his hands concerning the old past due bills"—on 18th January, 1859, "The report and balancesheet to be presented to the shareholders was discussed and decided on"—at the board meeting of 25th January, 1859, "The report was presented by MR. Tayloe respecting the matters of Messrs. Cotterill, King, Engledew, Co well and Brock"—on 11th March, 1859, "Mr. Eyre reported that he had visited the West branch, and was of opinion that it was making a little progress"—on 2d December, 1859, "The solicitor was ordered to furnish a cash account of King and Brock's matters"—on 3d August, 1860, "MR. Eyre reported that he had visited the West-end branch, and I found the cash and notes agree with the corresponding entries"—on the 26th of October, 1860, "Terry was empowered to open a discount account with the National or any other bank, "but there is no entry in any of the books relating to it—in May,

1661, "Deputy Bower reported that he had visited the Lambeth branch in pursuance of the resolution of the board, and Mr. Bower also reported that he had visited the Western branch, and that the manager Expressed his opinion that notwithstanding the large amount of over-due bills, there was a good sound business now doing at the branch—by the board-book of June 7th, 1861, the committee were informed that "MR. Behrens, a customer of the West-end branch, had suspended payment"—it is right to mention that Mr. Behrens, who was a very large debtor, was placed in the list as good—on 18th October, 1861, here is an entry in the minute-book, "Loans and discounts were examined"—in the board-book of 28th February, 1862, here is, "The solicitor having reported that he had written to Mr. Frazi, resolved that immediate steps be taken for Mr. Frazi's apprehension"—in the same book, 10th April, 1862, here is, "Huggett, the detective's claim in Ollivier's matter was ordered for payment, 6l. 12s. 4d."; and on 28th April, 1862, "Resolved that the solicitor prepare a proper agreement, &c. for the transfer of the business to the London and Westminster Bank, limited"—on 27th June hero is, "Present, Messrs. Mechi, Bower, Hayward, Mulkern, and Eyre. The batik report was read and adopted;"that is the weekly report—on 27th June, which would be the half-yearly report, here is, "The correspondence past-due bills, branch discounts, and petty cash were examined"—this is the original manuscript, in the solicitors clerk's writing, I believe—I remember Mr. Eyre taking a report home with him; but I do not call it a report, it is a statement of figures of the position of the bank.

Q. I called your attention to a return of all customers who had overdrawn their accounts during the week, of all persons who have closed their accounts; was that report made on 27th June, and do you hold it in your hand? A. 24th June—here is a statement corresponding with that order, but I do not see any overdrawn accounts—it is similar to the account that has always been made according to the resolution of October, 1856—I find a very large number of them; they appear to have been made out every week—an entry of past-due bills, 12, 682l., Was brought to the directors' attention on June 24th—the West branch was 7, 869l. cash in hand, Bank of England notes 2, 170l., bank bills 2, 811l. money 4, 143l., and sundries 19, 471l.—the sundries consist of dishonoured bills; they correspond in amount to the cash in hand, and make up a sum of 28, 996l., which is made up of other items—there was a fund for bad debts as well—this is, in point of fact, a detailed statement of the position of the bank at the end of the week—I have found a great many such, but not the whole of them—I have seen in the entries from week to week, "The bank report was read and adopted"—the first entry is, "The minutes of the last meeting were read and confirmed"—Mr. Eyre borrowed the weekly statement dated 24th June from me, I think, during the examination at the Mansion House—I do not think it was produced there—I think he had it three weeks, until I applied to him for it—I think he had two other statements—he has returned them both—I have no statement of 1st July similar to that—I have never seen it; it is missing—on 15th July, I find, "Resolved, that this board, having taken into consideration the services of Mr. Alderman Mechi, recommend the general meeting of shareholders to award him a sum not exceeding 3,000l."—that was never attempted to be carried out—in the committee-book, I find on 26th August, 1862, "The correspondence, past-due bills, loans and discounts, bank, pass, and cash-books were examined"—that is the last entry—at the board meeting of 9th September I find, "Present, Mr. Mechi, Bower, Hay ward, and

Mulkern; the report was discussed and the consideration thereof adjourned to the 12th instant;"and on 12th September, in the same book, I find, "The report to be submitted at the ensuing general meeting was read and agreed to; present, Messrs. Mechi, Bower, Eyre, Hayward, and Mulkern" On 25th November, 1862, there is a resolution "that the Board meet on Friday next, on the subject of the winding-up, and especially upon the pastdue bills"—on 17th December there was a meeting, Mr. Tayloe, the solicitor, being present—Mr. Eyre then examined the past-due bills, and made a memorandum, which corresponds with the minute here—that memorandum contains a great number of the past-due bills that are inserted in the item of 207,000l.—it was in the beginning of 1863 that these entries about good, bad, and doubtful debts were made; that was in consequence of a resolution of 10th February, 1863—I think it was on 12th September, 1862, that the balance-sheet of June, 1862, was finally agreed to and adopted by the directors—I find on the minutes that an agreement was entered into between the Unity Bank and the London and Middlesex Bank for a transfer—that agreement was dated on July 8th—the London and Middlesex agreed to give the Unity Bank 10,000l. when the London and Middlesex arrived at such a position that they could pay their own shareholders 5 per cent, dividend—that 10,000l. was never realized—I believe that arrangement was agreed to by more than two-thirds of the Unity shareholders—the transfer has been regularly made—a large number of the Unity Bank shareholder took shares in the London and Middlesex, and 10l. deposit was paid on those shares out of the stock of the Unity Bank—I believe Alderman Mechi originally took 537 shares in the London and Middlesex Bank when the transfer was made—the Unity Bank closed on 30th August—Mr. Terry ceased to be manager after that, and became manager of the London and Middlesex—he was winding-up the Unity, and Mr. Burch who was helping him, he became secretary to the London and Middlesex—my services were first called in on 10th February, 1864—in March, 1864 the directors, the committee of shareholders, and the shareholders themselves, were aware that the item of 207,000l. (No. 3) contained the past-due bills, &c.—the defendants were arrested upon a warrant applied for by me on 2d September, 1864; I acted simply upon the instructions I received from the solicitors—the bank has paid all its creditors and depositors every farthing; I should say, altogether, about 250,000l.—about 200,000l. has been paid to the depositors and creditors—13l. has been returned on each share, and I should say about another 3l. will be returned, or a little less—that will make about 16l. a share, in round numbers—the investments in the chief offices and branches are developed in this balance-sheet at 24,000l.; they realized about 8, 200l., including 1500l. received from the Railway Company for the Cannon-street premises—that shows a loss of about 15,000l.—I have heard Alderman Mechi state that he expected Perl's estate would realise 12s. 6d. in the pound.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. What were the books that were kept by Mr. Burch? A. The committee minute-book, the board minute-book, and the day-book, and he posted the day-book into the general ledger; it is scarcely a day-book; I should call the day-book a daily cash-book; all the cash transactions of the day got into it; he did not make the entries from his own knowledge, he would extract them from other books kept in the office—I observe that he copies it from a rough day-book which kept in the office, and balanced by one of the other clerks from other books

kept by clerks; I believe that was the system in the bank—he then poets each item into the general ledger.

COURT. Q. Then he is a mere scribe in these books, is he? A. Only that the entries are responsible for the accounts; the secretary is responsible for the entries; he is only a copyist as far as the books go.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. As far as the books go he merely enters these things? A. That is all; he is not in any way concerned in the transactions—I think his salary was 200l. a year in the Unity; I believe it was first 160l., and then increased—the first item in the balance-sheet is "capital" account, 141,000l. 15s. 5d.—that does not represent the sum subscribed; that was 179,000l.—it purports to represent the balance of the capital subscribed—the writing 38,000l. off the capital-account was improperly done—by it the balance-sheet appears as if the directors had only to account to the shareholders for 141,000l.; they took counsel's opinion before they did that—I have seen the opinion—that represents themselves as 39,000l. odd better off than they were—there is a minute in the board-book on 9th September, 1863, as to the duties of the secretary (read)—Mr. Alderman Mechi's debt has not been paid off; he has been gradually paying it off—he still owes 4, 754l—there is security for that, a mortgage on property. Mr. Giffard. Q. As to this sum of 38,000l. that was written off, there is an entry of that in the books, as I understand? A. There is—after it had been written off, it could not very well appear in any other way unless it appeared every time—the bank represented themselves as better off by 40,000l., because they had to account on the opposite side for a less sum through reducing their capital; they had lost 38,000l.—if they had placed the capital at the correct amount, they would have had to account on the opposite side for the 38,000l. which had been lost; it would still have re-mained, but it would have remained as a loss, and would have shown the position of the bank—I only know the way in which Burch kept the books by different inquiries that I have made, not from himself; I have never asked him a question—I have seen all the rough day-books, and noticed the different handwritings—the defendants both went to the London and Middlesex Bank as soon as the Unity shut up—Terry did not remain there down to the time of this charge—the London and Middlesex Bank is being wound up now; I am winding it up—Burch remained there till the end of August, 1864; he was assisting the directors in winding it up—I first saw Mr. Eyre's memorandum at the Mansion-house, while he was being examined as a wit-ness in this prosecution—there are a great number of these weekly summaries or reports, all exactly in the same form—my attention has been called to this one of 24th June, 1862—the past-due bills there are put down at 12, 682l. 14s. 5d.—that is put down to the left side; the balances at the right are the credit balances—there is a blank left opposite the investments—past-due bills would be an investment—interest on deposit-receipts would also be an investment—"bills discounted "appears in the debtor column; should understand that—if you did not see the heading" balance debtor and creditor, "very likely you might imagine there were no past-due bills; the first page represents the past-due bills as a blank, because during the week there happened to be no past-due bills, and this was a weekly statement—the other is the actual balance—I have not looked to as certain if the account is kept in the same way throughout in these weekly accounts—it is in blank here (looking at another)—if there had been any additional past-due bills, they would have appeared there—in order to know what the debtor-balance referred to I should refer to the general ledger—there is a detailed statement

in that—I should not find it out until then unless the bills were handed to me.

COURT. Q. What you saw "past-due bills, "and opposite that item the sum of 12, 687l., you surely would have no doubt that was the amount of the past-due bills? A. No.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. As to the cash, you told my friend that the "sundries, 19, 471l."represented the dishonoured bills? A. Yes—I don't mean that sundries, in banking phraseology, implies dishonoured bills, but examination proved it so—I think the weekly statement that is missing was the one of 1st July, 1862; there were several missing about that time; I could not find them—there is no means of positively identifying the particular document referred to in the resolution of 15th October, 1861—the chairman used to initial the documents; I don't know whether he read them—I cannot find out any mode of identifying them—the cash-article book is that which is represented to have been examined—I believe they used to call it the cash-book in the bank—that is the book that contains the sundries—I have not traced the discount-account; I know that a discount-account was opened, and these bills were discounted at Overend and Gurney's—I should say that near about 30,000l. was in the hands of the directors, by way of loan during the continuance of the bank—that included the large advance to Alderman Mechi—there were very few advances except that to the Alderman—at the time that advance was made, a very large number of Unity Bank shares were purchased by him—the loans to directors were at the Bank of England rate of discount—I have compared the items for two years with the Bank of England rate, and found them to answer—that was the end of 1860 and the whole of 1861, up to the close of the bank—I have also asked the question, and they state that they always paid the interest regularly, with the one exception that I have mentioned, which was a special one—the re-discounting appears in the general ledger—it is not usual for a bank to re-discount bills brought in by its customers; it is never done unless the bank is in a weak state—if they have overtraded, the bank then has its capital locked up in a number of bad bills, which it cannot realize—it is part of the business of a bank to lend money—Mr. Bazin had a private account at the West-end branch; it was his personally, not the firm's—it was overdrawn on two occasions, to the amount of 33l. and 50l.—Mr. Alderman Mechi had no private account at the bank of late years—I have not noticed any for two years before the bank closed—the balance-sheet of 1857 comprehends the same sort of item as this 207,000l. "bills discounted, loans to customers, "&c—I have all the detailed entries before me—the general ledger gives the past-due bills—from the date of the balance-sheet of 1857, down to the writing off of the item of 38,000l., that item always appeared either in the form of past-due bills or losses; and from the year 1860 no such item has appeared—there was a regular set of banker's books kept—if I was endeavouring to find out what bills were good and what were bad by the books, I should first ascertain when the bills were dishonoured, and trace them all out; the discount-ledger would show the original entries; and having found out when they were dishonoured, I should examine the past-due bills account, and see whether any final dividend had been received, and should then consider the balance that ought, to be written off as irrecoverable—if you wanted to ascertain the amount of cash in hand, you would refer to the general ledger and see what the balance was, according to the cash account, and then the cash in the cashiers' tills ought to agree with that amount, and if it did not, the cash-article

book would make up the difference, if the entries were correct—the general ledger shows the position of the bank—not only the totals, but the past-due bills account was kept in detail in the Unity Bank; I have never seen it kept in detail in any other bank—in the past-due bills book and the general ledger all the particulars are given.

COURT. Q. Then that would give greater facilities for seeing what bills were past-due? A. It would—any one looking at the ledger would see what the state of things was—a detailed account is given in the general ledger of all these bills—in the balance-sheet they have copied the totals, and added them to the bills discounted—that is a mode of keeping them alive in the books without writing them off—they could not very well be written off without the sanction of the directors.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. The general ledger, I suppose, consists of a good many volumes? A. There are two volumes; one goes up to 1859, and the other, to the close of the bank—I believe the general ledger is written up every week, and sometimes twice a-week; it is in Mr. Burch's writing, posted up from the day-book—the amount of Bunyard's account, 41,000l., includes renewals in many instances, over and over again—the discount ought to be larger on renewals—I think with respect to the two loans of 965l. and 755l., no in-tercet was charged—the note of discount in Bunyard's case was always the same—the rate of discount varied very much according to the class of customers—I see here is an instance; S. Bridgland is charged 3 percent, and the very next customer is charged 10, and the next 5, I should say the rate of discount to the directors was rather more favourable than to the other customers, but their bills were looked upon as better than the others; they were charged the bank rate, and others were charged higher—Harrison and Co. was charged an average rate of 7 1/2—the discount varies with the length a bill has to run; it ought to do so, at all events—I don't say that rule is always followed—a bad bill ought not to be discounted at all.

MR. METCALFE. Q. Was each balance-sheet audited? A. The balance-sheet were all audited—the one in question was audited; it states, "Compared the items with the above balance-sheet with books relating thereto, and found the same to be correct.—William Gould and William Hopwood, Auditors."—that applies to every balance-sheet.

COURT. Q. At all events it refers to this one? A. Yes—the auditors would find the over-due bills included in the "bills discounted loans to customers, &c, 207,000l."—that item, unless an explanation was given to them as to how the figures were arrived at, would not have agreed with the books—they could not have compared them—it would not have agreed with the books unless it had included the over-due bills; so with the cash in hand, it must have included the documents I have referred to, to make up the 38,000l

Q. And with regard to the amount due on current and other accounts must they have known that that was not the true account, but the account less the amount of over-drawn accounts? A. No, because when they compared that with the general ledger those items would have agreed—they could not take all the customers' ledgers, and run all the balances out; that would be a very difficult thing, and take some considerable time—they would not understand that the amount ought to have been increased by the over-drawn bills; they would consider it was a balance, and the proper way of expressing it—I have no doubt that a good many accountants would have passed it, simply because they were not brought up in a bank—the manuscript balance-sheet and the detailed balance-sheet of 30th June are in Burch's writing, figures and all;

this is a fair copy, and exactly the same as the one published—it is a copy from the detailed balance-sheet—I should think it was copied from the books by the secretary, and prepared by him.

JOSEPH HUGGETT . I am one of the detective-officers of the City-police—I produce a bill of exchange, which I received from Terry on March 6th, 1862, and be requested me to endeavour to apprehend Ollivier for forging it, but I was unable to do so—we had this advertisement (produced) in the morning papers—I afterwards saw Terry about my charge for making inquiries—I also received instructions from Terry in 1862 to apprehend George Frazi for forging a bill of exchange—he was apprehended on 7th March, committed to this Court on the 19th, tried at the April Sessions, and sentenced to fifteen months' imprisonment—Terry gave evidence against him at the Mansion-house, but he pleaded guilty here.

COURT. Q. Were you paid your expenses in Frazi's case? A. Yes; Ollivier's bill was 280l. 16s. 3d.—I am not aware of the amount of Fran's. John Joseph Mechi, Esq., Alderman. I was governor and chairman of the Unity Bank from 1856—I remember the two defendants entering the bank at its commencement—Mr. Terry entered the bank as chief accountant, and Mr. Burch was cashier—at that time Mr. George Chambers was the manager—I did not recommend the defendants for employment in the bank; neither of them—they were unknown to me previous to that time—they were selected as having the best testimonials out of about 150 from different banks—I remember Mr. Chambers retiring from the management in August, 57—I had a conversation at that time with Mr. Terry about his becoming the manager—I recommended him for the appointment, believing him to be then the best man for that position—the bank had at that time sustained a variety of losses in '57—I took steps to communicate to the shareholders the losses that the bank had sustained—at that time the bank was fully able to pay its depositors—it could not repay its capital to the proprietors, because a sum of money had been lost by Mr. Chamber's management equal to between 30,000l. and 40,000l., which was, in fact, the cause of his dismissal or retirement—he was unsuccessful in discounting—upon Mr. Terry being appointed certain rules were made by the directors, and entered in the minute-book for the guidance of the manager—(The minute of 19th January 1858, was here read, containing a recommendation from Mr. Eyre at to the duties of the manager, which recommendation was decided to be acted upon)—I believe that entry was written by Mr. Burch himself for the purpose of showing to Mr. Terry—from that time Mr. Burch fulfilled the duties of secretary, though the formal appointment was not made for some time afterwards—the secretary was always present at the board meetings—I have given directions to both the defendants with reference to the preparation of the balance-sheets—I requested them to make a true and faithful and uncoloured report of the state of affairs of the bank—it was the duty of the manager and the secretary to prepare the balance-sheets from the books, which the directors never interfered with—when they were made out they were presented to the board, and the directors did not make any alteration in them or interfere with them in any manner, but merely ordered them to be printed—the directors examined them before they ordered them to be printed, by reading them, and seeing the details therein expressed—we took no steps to verify the items, but relied entirely on the manager and the secretary and the auditors—the whole of the accounts were submitted to the auditors prior to the balance-sheets coming to the directors—as a fact, we never tested the balance-sheets in any way by the books; we relied upon

the auditors—they were paid by the shareholders, and it was their business to verify the accounts—the whole of the books and Touchers and clerks were placed at their entire disposal, and the directors did not interfere with them in any way—the directors considered the auditors represented the shareholders, and they were shareholders themselves—one of the auditors, Mr. Gould, was a large iron merchant, and the other, Ml Hopwood, was an accountant—they were paid, I think, five-and-twenty guineas each for auditing the accounts; and we, of course, relied upon them to see that the balance-sheet was orrect. Adjourned.

Wednesday, April 19th, 1865.

MR. ALDERMAN MECHI (continued). I recollect the balance-sheet of June, 1862, being placed before me, and that it showed a profit—I did not then know the bank was in difficulties—I believed the profit to have been truly realized, that the balance-sheet showed a true statement of the affairs of the bank, and that the three items in question, namely, 207, 668l. in respect of loans to customers, bills discounted, &c.; 159, 392l., the amount due on current and other accounts; and 38, 715l. as cash in hand, were truly stated—I knew that overdue bills were comprised in the item 207, 668l., but I also assumed they were placed at their proper value as the instructions were given—there are overdue bills in every bank, but I certainly did not know that overdue bills that were forged were included in that item—The instructions given by the directors were that all the past-due bills were to be placed at their true value, making such allowance as was believed to be correct, as to the dividends that might be returnable on; them—I held 537 shares in the Unity Bank—the total number of the shares was 3,000, and I held more than a sixth of the whole capital of the bank—I recollect the failure of the Royal British Bank, and purchasing about that time a large number of the shares of the Unity Bank—it was then that I borrowed a considerable portion of the 23,000l. from the bank to buy the shares; giving the bank at the same time ample security, independently of the shares themselves—that was done at the carnest request of the then manager, Mr. Chambers—there was a great panic at that time, and our bank was only four months old—I made all the circumstances of the loan known to the shareholders at the time—the secretary always attended the board and entered the minutes—loans and renewals of loans were brought under the attention of the directors, as were also discharges by the bank of debts due to the bank—the release to Bunyard of 5,000l. was totally unknown to us—I had no knowledge that Terry had given a release for that debt—it was never brought to the attention of the board while I was present—no entry of the 996l. transaction with Bunyard was entered on the minutes or brought to my attention—I had told Terry I did not like the appearance of Bunyard, and that he must be very careful with respect to him—he said proper inquiries had been made, and that the securities were good. I think Perl's case was brought before us, and that Terry was authorized to take a composition, Perl having failed—it was hoped Perl would pay 12s. 6d. in the pound, but those hopes were never realized—he paid 1s. in the pound—the debt was 8,000l. odd—I did not know that Terry had signed the deed of composition for 2, 500l. only—(MR. HOWELL signed for those bills he expected to be dishonoured, the others he expected to be taken up by the acceptors)—There was no concealment in Perl's case of which I am aware—I frequently spoke to Terry as to Lowenthal's account—it was constantly a subject of discussion and anxiety at the board—Mr. Burch was always present on these occasions—we often referred to the mauager

as to whether he was satisfied with the securities and the bond fides of the transactions—his replies were satisfactory—I did not know Ironsides or that he was a customer of the bank—I did not know that some of Lowenthal's bills were substitutions for the acceptances of Ironsides, or given up for those acceptances—I remember F. W. Hall being a debtor to the bank—his debt was discussed at the bank in the presence of Burch, and sometimes of Terry—Terry was called in and warned to be careful with respect to Hall—he said he had confidence in him and was satisfied, or words to that effect—we knew nothing of him ourselves—the manager was not generally present at the meetings; we sent for him when we wanted him—we sat twice a week, and in the interim we called frequently at the bank—he had access to the minutes when he chose—my instructions as to discounting bills were to prefer security before profit—there was a book called the "Cash Article Book"—it was generally read over week by week at the board meetings, but I am not quite sure it was read latterly—the secretary read it—I have no recollection of an item in the book of 1, 095l., in respect to a cheque of Sterne, drawn on Martin, being read over—I could not say how many entries were read—they ought to have been all read, if at all—the book was left on the table, four or five directors sitting round—we never looked at the book—I am quite sure Sterne's name was not called out, or it would have attracted our attention—directions were given after the 30th of June, 1862, by me or Mr. Eyre, to prepare a book containing a list of debts due to the bank—the one produced is it—it is partly in Burch's and partly in Terry's handwriting—the book begins in January, 1863, and purports to show the debts, good, bad, and. indifferent, due to the bank—it was certainly not with my knowledge, or that of the directors, that the debts of Sterne, Bunyard, Lowenthal, Harris, or Jabez Wood, were omitted from that book—the object of the book was to show what was owing to the bank and what was paid—I recollect that book being produced to the directors, it was the subject of discussion, sometimes with the manager, and sometimes with the secretary—in February, 1864, I recollect going to a meeting of shareholders, and having a conversation with Burch before, going—that was on the 9th of February—I asked him what had become of our assets, our money in the Unity, adding that I could not understand why we owed the London and Middlesex money, and that there ought to be money of our own, or words to that effect—he produced a small book in which were several names of persons represented as owing us money, including Lowenthal and others—I had believed that those debts had been paid long before—I expressed my surprise, and asked why he had not mentioned that before—he replied that he did not like to do so—shortly afterwards, on the same day, I communicated the facts to the directors—Terry was spoken to on the subject during the day—he was called to account about it, but I could not state what took place so well as the other directors—I lost quite 18,000l. in the bank—that was by the depreciation of the shares; in fact every year I was losing about 3,000l. by these conceal ments.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT PARRY. Q. You were governor of the bank for two years, were you not? A. I was, and chairman—I was to have had 500l. a year as chairman if the bank had been prosperous, but I declined to take it while the bank was not making a profit—I was to be paid that for devoting more time to the affairs of the bank than the other direc-tors—Terry at one time had 500l., a year, but that was reduced to 450l. MR. Chambers, the first manager, had 800l., a year; Mr. Burch had 200l.,

and originally 160l. a year—I knew that Terry had been sixteen years in the bank of Jones Loyd and Co., and we had perfect confidence in him—I knew the item 207, 668l. contained past-due bills and cheques in suspense, but I did not know the exact amount of those bills and cheques—I have no doubt the amount was stated to us—it was 20,000l. odd, but I cannot recollect—I did not know that it amounted to nearer 50,000l. than 20,000l., but the amount, whether 50,000l. or 20,000l., was known to me and the other directors—I am one of the liquidators by virtue of my office as a director under the charter—we, as directors, do not oppose the prosecution, nor do we sanction it; we do neither—there are three other directors besides myself, namely, Mr. Deputy Bower, Mr. Eyre, and Mr. Hayward, of the Minories, all four well-known gentlemen in the City of London—we have taken no part in the prosecution; we did not oppose it—the prosecution has been instituted by the direction of the Master of the Rolls—we, as directors, knew of the gross amount of past-due bills and cheques in suspense.

Q. This, you know, is a celebrated item, and will always be so in the banking world—I mean "bills discounted, loans to customers, &c. 207, 668l."—why did not the directors divide that item into three parts, so as to show what was cash, what were past-due bills, and what were cheques in suspense? A. We placed the item in that way as all other banks do, or did up to that time, latterly there has been an alteration in some—there always must be past-due bills in a bank, and a great many whose realization must always be uncertain, depending as they must do on a great many circumstances and contingencies which I think I need not illustrate—some bankrupts' estates are occasionally twenty years in being wound up—I was not aware that the forged bills were carried into the balance-sheet as good"—we knew that Ollivier's and Frasi's bills were forged—they ought to have been written off—I do not know that they were—the general instructions of the directors were to write off what was bad—I mean to say, that a manager of his own accord would be at liberty to write off debts that he thought were bad, without the sanction of the directors; I would call it deducting from the profits of the half-year—the instructions were to make a true and faithful account of the affairs of the bank; I frequently; have those instructions—I did not suspect that the manager was doing otherwise—every half-year I charged the defendants to make out a true and faithful balance-sheet—the expression "preferring security to profit" which I have used may be found in Gilbert's Book on Banking—that, at all events, was my rule—I did it to give confidence to our manager; he looked to me very much.

Q. Suppose the name of an acceptor was forged, but the drawer and endorser were good, you would not write it off would you? A. If there was a prospect of getting the money from it, certainly not—if a bank was unfortunate enough to have 10,000l. worth of forged bills, the manager could write that off; he must write it off to make up the balance-sheet—I think it would be very necessary to give some account to the shareholders if there was so large an amount as that—if there was a prospect of getting the money, you would put it at its estimated value.

COURT. Q. Is there any written authority anywhere for writing off any amount except for the 38,000l.,? A. No; I think not.

MR. SERJEANT PARRY. Q. That 38,000l. was recommended to be written off by the shareholders, was it not? A. We could not write it off capital with out their sanction—if these forged bills had been written off, I presume it would have been a past-due bills account; it would diminish the amount of the

past-due bills—it must appear in some account of the bank-books—the British Bank failed In September, 1856, when we were four months' old—I originally took twenty shares, the same as the other directors, to buy which I borrowed 1,000l., from the Unity Life-office, and afterwards repaid it—the directors never had any shares allotted to them for which they did not pay—there was a panic, and a run upon the bank in the autumn of 1856, the shareholders were destroying their own property—the average cost of my shares was 42l. 10s. a share, and I shall, I hope, get back 16l. a share—I have had to pay interest all the time, without receiving any dividend—I subsequently bought shares at a lower rate with the view to recoup myself, but I still lost 18,000l., notwithstanding—one duty a manager is to see the customers; a great deal of paper is passed on a new bank, much of which is very doubtful—the difficulty of a new bank is that the manager at first does not know his customers, and he makes advances, often at considerable loss in the end—I knew nothing of the trust-deed in Bunyard's case—I knew securities were deposited with respect to Bunyard's debt in the shape of hope and guano—I do not recollect 5,000l., of Micklam's bonds being deposited—I believe Terry was serious in his belief that 12s. 6d. in the pound would be obtained in Perl's case—Sterne's name was never called over as appearing in the cash article book—I knew him very well—my partner, Mr. Bazin, was well acquainted with him, under the same circumstances as I myself was; namely, by his coming to the bank—I have heard the name of Martin called, but not of Sterne—the cheque in question of Sterne was upon Martin—I am not aware that I ever looked into the cash article book—our meetings lasted two or three hours; I can't tell whether the book was produced the first part of the day—after being read I have no doubt it was placed on the table of the board—having had the book read to us we did not look into it, we having confidence in the manager and secretary—the book was left once a week on the table of the board—I am not aware that I heard Sterne's cheque read over more than once—the entry would not attract my attention in the name of Martin, we having no customer of that name—the name of Mr. Eyre, a director, for l, 500l., was in the cash article book, and read out—there was plenty of security in shares for that sum, very likely no other security—there was no concealment of any of the directors' transactions—once in a way Sterne may have taken lunch with us at the board; luncheon was always on the table—I will swear I never saw him alone—I asked him to take shares in the London and Middlesex Bank, and we were much obliged for the trouble he took in getting his friends to take shares—I think it very likely I asked him to take shares, but I cannot say positively—Mr. Terry often asked him, in my presence, and I was glad that he did, for we were anxious to establish the bank—I don't recollect that I pressed Sterne to take shares—I have no doubt I thanked him for taking shares—Mr. Sterne and Mr. Terry were very intimate—I was a director of the London and Middlesex, and I took 537 shares in it, it being a condition of the transfer that I should take as many shares in it as I had in the Unity—I sold most of them at a premium of 10s. 6d.—I think the London and Middlesex Bank was given up after twelve months, and nearly the whole capital, amounting to 70,000l., was lost. A. weekly statement like that produced was made to us regularly—it is a printed form; we examined it—the affairs of the west-end branch also came before us in the same form—the item, "Sundries" in the weekly return included the total of the cash article book—I never looked at the general ledger in my life, and very rarely at the cash article book—we looked very particularly at the weekly statement, and read all the correspondence both in

and out—after the conversation with Burch on the 9th of February, 1864, to which I have spoken, I addressed a meeting of shareholders, on the same day.

Q. Did you say on that occasion, "I think it is necessary that I should distinctly and unmistakably state that the conduct of the directors in the management of this bank has been honest and consistent, and of the utmost regularity?" A. I believe I did—there were very-likely cries of "No, no, "to that—I also said, "Gentlemen, with respect to the staff, the directors have no knowledge of, nor do they believe in any irregularity on the part of the staff of the Unify Bank"—I believed so at the time—it afterwards took Mr. Howell, the accountant, four months to go over the books to ascertain the true state of affairs—I thought it very strange that the defendants should have carried over those accounts without letting us know—it was not at the wish of the bank that I became Sheriff—I don't think I borrowed 600l., to pay my shrievalty expenses; I may have done so—my shrievalty cost me 4, 6002.—if the directors had borrowed all the capital, it would have been for the benefit of the shareholders, and nothing would have been lost.

Q. Did you say this at a meeting of shareholders on 16th July, 1858:—"Allow me to say the directors do not trust entirely either to the clerks or the manager; once a month they count all the cash themselves, each director taking his turn; every Tuesday we examine every bill that is discounted, and the particulars of every loan that is proposed; the expenditure also constantly undergoes a most rigid investigation"? A. That is so—the cash was not always counted once a month—that was our duty—it was very often counted—it might in some instances have been omitted—we counted the notes and gold—we verified the cash in the tills.

Q. Do you remember Deputy Bower, one of the directors, saying at the same meeting, "Twice a week, gentlemen, every Tuesday and Friday: I am the more entitled to say this because some question has arisen with regard to a monthly audit of the accounts—twice a week, I say, we might always have been found at our posts: not that our efforts have been confined to those days, but on those days there has been a regular examination made of what has been done in the intervening day. Now, when we have made that examination, and made it, as I know it has been made, correctly; when, and in addition, we have every week made a practical audit by counting the cash, I must say I do not see how any other gentleman coming there monthly could have done the work better than it has been done by ourselves. "A. Yes; he was wrong in saying every week, it was every month—I have no doubt he said so—they are bond fide reports, and copies were seat to all the shareholders—I think it very likely that the shareholders proposed an audit once a month, and very likely the directors opposed it—on 21st January, 1859, I addressed a meeting—I no doubt said, "I think I may very safely congratulate you on the improved state of your affairs through the excellent management of Mr. Terry, combined with the careful supervision of the directors, the bad debts of the past year, instead of being 40,000l., are under 1,000l. It must be borne in mind that we are not in a position to pick our paper; we are not in the position of the old-established banks, who can take in the largest and the best fish, and reject all the small ones. It is, however, the desire and aim, both of the manager and the directors, not so much to extend our business, as to take care that all the business done shall be bond fide, respectable, and legitimate. Let me add to what I have already said, that the directors still abstain from charging any fees for their services to the bank. They are working very hard, attending very closely to their duties, for the present without any remuneration; but

if the bank should succeed, as I believe it will, I am quite sure they will receive a fair remuneration from the shareholders at the proper time. The directors are determined to devote close and untiring attention to your affairs. We have always done so up to the present time; We read every letter, we look at every bill, we devote a good deal of time to your interests, and we shall continue our efforts in the hope that are long they will be crowned with happy results."—That is perfectly true—I have mo doubt I said so, and that I meant so—I heard Deputy Bower say at thai meeting—"You all know that we have stack to the bank; yes, almost like leeches have we stuck to it. We have attended twice a week without any remune ration; we examine everything; we take an interest in everything; there can be no retrogression without our knowledge, and 10 advance without our helping to promote it We come before you with a can did statement of our affairs to the last penny. If there had been any lost we should have informed you of it."—At the half-yearly meeting, on the 27th January, 1860, I said, "Past experience has made us wise. We have learnt mot to place too much confidence in any man. We have got an excellent manager (we take care that all who are employed are not merely testimonial men, but persons who have been tried before), but we shall watch even our manager closely; and I contend that, in a concern of this kind, no man should be entrusted with an unlimited amount of responsibility."That is quite true, and acting on that we appointed Mr. Burch as the eye of the Board—I asked for 3,000l., for remuneration for my services and my losses—there was no doubt consider able discussion about it—I could not say on what day it was—I said without that I would not consent to the transfer to the London and Middlesex, and I was at liberty to do that as a shareholder—none of the directors asked for remuneration—we were to get 10, 00l., by the transfer on a certain contingency, and I asked for 3,000l., of that sum I worked for it, too, and I should have had plenty of sympathy from the shareholdaers, if that had been put into my pockets—the June balance-sheet was no doubt considered at our meetings—we always looked at the balance-sheets and talked them over, but we never altered or interfered with them—I have mo recollection on one occasion, when we wished to have a dividend, Mr. Terry entertaining a strong objection to it—if I stated so in July, 1860, it was so certainly.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINB. Q. Did you say you appointed Burch as Secretary to superintend the manager? A. As the eye of the board—the former manager resigned in 1857—Burch came first as a clerk, and he was afterwards appointed secretary—he had first 160l., and then 200l., a year, and the manager had 500l.,—I consider my duty, as a director, was to direct and supervise, to receive the reports of our confidential officers, and to form opinions on those reports.

Q. And not to inquire any further into the matter. A. I did not say that—on the contrary, I inquired whenever there was in my mind a necessity for inquiry—we certainly did not consider it our duty to look at the books of the bank—they were very numerous and voluminous, but at the Board meetings we had all the correspondence read, and we had a weekly statement furnished by our confidential servants—we must have believed what they said, or we must have discharged them—we took their word for the representation of certain facts—the books were read to us—we looked at the letter-books occasionally—the correspondence was a most important part of the business of the bank—we could not become clerks or managers.

COURT. Q. I suppose you looked at the weekly returns? A. Closely, in all their details—they were our guides, for we did not know what we were about without them.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Did you take away, or have you got a copy of the weekly return of August, 1862? A. No; I have taken no document away belonging to the bank—I am quite sure I did not take away a return of August, 1862—I have not a single one in my possession.

Q. Did you say at the half-yearly meeting on the 20th July, 1860: "The directors had adopted the prudent policy of endeavouring to do a safe business rather than a very extended one of a less certain character, and he was happy to state as the result, that the losses from bad debts did not exceed the average small amount which had hitherto occurred under the excellent management of Mr. Terry. On this, the termination of the third year under the new management, he had looked into the books with the view of ascertaining whether and to what extent they had improved their condition under the new regime, and the result of his inquiry was so favour-able that he ventured to lay a few figures on the subject before the meeting. "Is that true? A. I never said anything but what I believed to be true—I call that looking into the books—it was made by our confidential manager; if you cannot trust him, who can you trust—perhaps I ought to have said I looked into the accounts—I consider that the looking at the weekly statements produced to us by the proper authorities was looking into the books—we did not employ a detective over our manager—we had all the bills before us weekly, and every loan that was granted, as far as we knew—there was also produced before us every week what was called the customers' account, showing what persons' accounts were overdrawn, and how much the discount for the week was—we should not have fulfilled our duties if we had not had such an account—I had an account in my own name at the head office—I did not draw on that account, it was merely in connexion with the shares—Mechi and Bazin had an account at the chief office, and also at the West-end branch—Mr. Bazin, my partner, had also a separate account—I did not operate on his account—I think it is very likely that I sometimes used his private account for my own purposes—I knew that at times we overdrew our account at the chief office, and at times at the west branch, but my partner managed the financial department altogether; I had nothing to do with the finances of the business.

Q. Did you bring out the money from that West-end branch and pay it into the chief office to give your account there the appearance of a balance? A. I think at the close of a half-year every one likes to make their balance look pretty well, and on one occasion that was done; but the bank suffered nothing by it—whenever our account was overdrawn I insisted on being charged for it.

Q. Did you do the same thing sometimes to show a balance at the western branch? A. That may have been done; I do not know; my partner managed the financial department.

Q. Did you in that way always appear to have a respectable balance at both? A. Very likely; the cheques passed—my partner managed the financial transactions entirely—I did not interfere; he had the entire management—it was without my authority—I should not have objected to it; it was a very innocent affair—I did know it; but I did not authorise him to do it—I knew it at the time.

Q. So that there would appear a balance at both offices when the balance was against you at both? A. The cheques were passing and would be paid—the appearance of the audit would be that we had a balance in our favour, not very considerable—we were not overdrawing; the cheques were passing.

COURT. Q. Supposing those cheques had not been drawn, would you

appear to have overdrawn at both places? A. I can't say; I am not sure—the cheques were passing to put both accounts in credit, when in fact they were not in credit.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE.Q. Was it not done to falsely represent that you had a balance, when in point of fact you were overdrawing? A. I believe it was a very innocent affair—it had that effect—it was done with that intention, no doubt.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. You have mentioned the examination of the books by the directors; will you state exactly what was done when you met on the Tuesday? A. On the Tuesday the loans were considered—they were brought before us for our sanction—there was a loan book, in which was placed the amount granted, subject to approval—those were new loans—Mr. Burch mentioned the name of the person applying for the loan and the amount and sometimes Mr. Terry, and the subject was discussed amongst the directors—the manager was called in when it was necessary to get information on the subject, to enable them to decide—I think the discussion was conducted in the first instance without the manager, but generally with him, and after discussion we came to a decision—all loans or renewals were considered on that same day, the Tuesday—the matter was brought before us by Mr. Burch, verbally or in his list; I can't say which; sometimes the name was put down I think, I cannot quite charge my memory; we discussed the question whether it was a proper loan to grant, Mr. Burch being present, and afterwards if any further explanation was wanted we called in Mr. Terry to give us the reasons and grounds for granting the loan—here is an entry on 25th June, 1861: "The following loans were approved"—then follows a list of names—they would not be written until after our decision was arrived at—they were discussed one by one—Mr. Burch would regulate the order in which they were brought before us, then we should discuss them, and on being approved they would be put down—no loans were ever brought before us until the manager bad first approved of them—I think that was our principal business on Tuesday—the correspondence was read on Friday—I know that our meetings were very short on Tuesday compared with Friday—the weekly reports were read on the Friday, I think—on the Friday we had the correspondence read, with the list of discounts—Mr. Burch read the correspondence; that occupied a substantial part of our meeting—we then read the weekly reports of the state of the bank—they were first read and then we examined them ourselves—we examined whether the amount of current accounts, deposit accounts, had increased or diminished; we examined all through it—we perfectly understood it, it was our guide to know in what position we were; we could not have got on at all without that—the cash was counted once a month, I think—I mean the cash in the tills, that is the cash referred to in this item—the bank balance we had before us every week—we banked at the Bank of England—some of us frequently went to the Bank to ascertain that the balance was there correctly—the Bank of England notes were counted by us with our own hands, and the money in the tills—I think the silver was weighed—the gold was counted—we did not attempt to verify the item of sundries—they were cheques and bills in transitu or in suspense, passing into the country for realization and so on—we did not check those, more than the list being read to us—another paper was handed in—that was a paper of discounts; the discounts effected for the week—there is an abundance of these, it is a very important list to us—it was a list of persons requiring discount, how much already had been discounted, what was the average balance, and what the rate of interest—that was part of the business that we managed as directors—we examined each bill that

was discounted—the bills were passed from one director to another to see whether the names were good or not; to see if we knew them, and if not, questions were asked—from two to four hours were occupied in that way at these meetings—it depended upon the length of the correspondence and so on—we did not consider it our duty to look at the books themselves, because we had no doubt of the honesty and straightforwardness of our officials—by our officials I mean the manager, secretary, and accountants—the balance-sheet was brought before us after it had been verified by the auditors—it was then sent to the printers by Mr. Burch or Mr. Terry—we never saw it till then I think—I don't think we saw it before the auditors—it was brought to us immediately before sending it to the printers—it would be submitted to the auditors soon after the accounts were made up at the half-years—I think it occupied the auditors about a fortnight—we never interfered at all with the auditors or held any communication with them with respect to their audit—if we happened to go in and found them there, we immediately said, "Good morning, "and went out—after being audited the balance-sheet was submitted as a matter of course to the shareholders, with the auditrs' signatures attached.

COURT. Q. Do you mean to say that you did not see the balance-sheet at all before it was submitted to the auditors? A. It came to us after the auditors—I don't know that I ever saw it before—my brother directors will be able perhaps to speak upon that, but I don't recollect that we ever saw it before; in tact, I don't think it was made up until then—if I bad seen anything wrong in the balance-sheet, it would have been my duty to call attention to it—the re-port was matter of discussion amongst the directors; that was entirely a matter for the directors—that is not the balance-sheet; it is attached to it on the other side of the fly-leaf—the report assumes the balance-sheet to be correct.

MR. GIPFARD. Q. A variety of speeches or portions of them have been suggested to you—I believe you have made a good many of those speeches to the shareholders? A. We considered it our duty that the absent shareholders should know everything, as if they were present, and therefore we had a special reporter, who gave a verbatim report of everything that was said and done, and a copy was transmitted to each shareholder—the speeches were rather long at times—I invariably told the shareholders that I would answer any questions put to me, and those questions and answers are all embodied in the reports—at the time I made those statements that have been referred to, I believed them to be true.

JURY. Q. Were you at any time aware that in that item, No. 3, 207,000l., the full amount of bankrupts' bills and forgeries were iucluded? A. Certainly not; I had no idea of such a thing.

Q. Then I should like to know what directions were given? A. The directions given were to make a true and faithful account of the value, of the estimated value, as far as it could be reached, of each security, without colour and without exaggeration.

COURT. Q. Did you ever look to see what estimate had been made? A. The estimates were discussed frequently in the board-room—in certain cases, in many cases, I inquired of Mr. Terry upon what principle he estimated the bills, such as Perl's, for instance—with reference to this account of 30th June, I don't think I did inquire of him upon what principle he had estimated the bills, or the amount at which he had estimated them—I did not understand the over-due bills' account to be estimated in these weekly returns—he was to carry into the balance-sheet the true value.

Q. Comparing the weekly returns with the balance-sheet of 30th June,

Would it not appear from that that the item of 207,000l., was not an estimate? A. I always considered that it was an estimate—I did not know what amount was carried in, as past-due bills; I could not tell without the books—I considered that the bankrupts' bills and forgeries were estimated in the balancesheet, but in the weekly returns they were put at their true value, as far as it could be reached—I don't think there was any direction to Mr. Terry in writing on this matter—there is a list of the bills somewhere—Mr. Howell has been through the accounts, and can give the details.

MR. HOWELL (re-examined.) Included in tie items of sundries, 19, 471l., is a large number of bills, which have been carried through the cash article book from day to day, and en 29th or 30th June, the bulk of them were disposed of by increasing this amount of 12, 882l.; the amount of past-due bills entered in the general ledger up to 24th June, 1862, at the chief office, to 23,000l., odd; then at the Western branch, the put-due bills is 7, 869l., including 1, 600l., dishonoured; altogether the amount would be about 50,000l.,—the weekly returns contain the whole of the bills and loams overdue, including the bankrupts' bills, forgeries, and so on; on examination that proved to be correct—it has always been the custom to include all that were not written off—nothing else has been written off bet the 38,000l.,—the weekly returns contain everything that is in the hooks in the shape of hills or loans, however hopeless, at their full value—that was laid before the directors every week—an examination would prove What this item consisted of.

MR. ALDERMAN MECHI (re-examined) I was not aware that it contained forgeries or anything of that kind—I understood thai the bills and loans in the weekly returns were not estimated, but that in the balance-sheet, issued to the shareholders, they were estimated.

GEORGE LEWIS PHIPPS EYRE . I am A partner in the firm of Byre and Lawson, solicitors, of 1, John-street, Bedford-row—I have been in the profession since the year 1840—at the formation of the Unity Bank I was applied to by Mr. Bayliss to become a director—I was a director from the first—Mr. Terry was appointed first accountant to the bank at the time I was a director—on Mr. Chamber's retirement he became manager—I did not take an active part in his appointment—I remember an instance of a sum of 1,000l., borrowed by a person named Gregory, being entered in the cash article book; that transaction took place before the investigation to the management of the bank by Mr. Chambers—Mr. Gregory had l,000l., lent him by Mr. Chambers, without security—an inquiry was made of Mr. Chambers whether that was not in the cash article book, and there was a question whether it appeared there or not; Mr. Terry was called into the board-room, and heat once, when asked the question, admitted that it was, and iregularly so, inasmuch as Mr. Gregory had left the country, and the money must be considered as lost—that was an irregularity by Mr. Chambens which Mr. Terry pointed out On 24th December, 1657, I wrote this letter to the directors; it is addressed to Mr. Alderman Mechi—(read; "My dear Sir—Sinee our last court-day I have taken into consideration the position of the Unity Bank, and my own responsibilities and duties in connexion therewith. After what has passed, and the small shave of support I received from the chair, I do not feel personally inclined, nor do I see the advantage that would arise from my again attending the court until my duty may imperalively require ma I desire, however, to put on formal record my view as to our present position, and as to the course which ought to be pursued. You are aware that I hare for some time past regarded the position of the

bank with apprehension. That apprehension has been seriously increased by the recent revelations. The committee appointed at my instance has brought to light larger losses and a far more imperfect system of management than we were, any of us, previously aware of. The examination has also elicited facts connected with our losses which are of a very serious character. I have ventured to submit to yourself and my colleagues what appears to me to be our only remedy. But while I find my colleagues generally concurring with me as to the serious character of past transactions, I do not find them prepared to take the only step by which, as it seems to me, the property is likely to be saved from ruin. Under such circumstances the grave question which I have to consider is by what course of proceeding I can divest