Old Bailey Proceedings.
30th January 1865
Reference Number: t18650130

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Old Bailey Proceedings front matter.
30th January 1865
Reference Numberf18650130

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Sessions Paper.








Short-hand Writers to the Court,








Law Publishers to the Queen's Most Excellent Majesty.



On the Queen's Commission of



The City of London,





Held on Monday, January 30th, 1865, and following days.

BEFORE THE RIGHT HON. WARREN STORMES HALE, LORD MAYOR of the City of London; Sir SAMUEL MARTIN , Knt., one of the Baron of Her Majesty's Court of Exchequer; Sir JAMES DUKE , Bart, M.P.; Sir FRANCIS GRAHAM MOON, Bart.; Sir ROBERT WALTER GARDEN, Knt.; JOHN CARTER , Esq., F.A.S., and F.R.A.S., Alderman of the said City; RUSSELL GURNEY, Esq., Q.C., Recorder of the said City; WILLIAM FERNELEY ALLEN, Esq.; SILLS JOHN GIBBONS, Esq.; ANDREW LUSK, Esq.; and DAVID HENRY STONE , Esq., Aldermen of the said City; and THOMAS CHAMBERS , Esq., Q.C., Common Serjeant of the said City; Her Majesty's Justices of Oyer and Terminer and General Gaol Delivery of Newgate, holden for the said City, and Judges of the Central Criminal Court.

THOMAS DAKIN, Esq., Alderman.

ROBERT BESLEY ., Esq., Alderman.







A star (*) denotes that prisoners have been previously in custody—two stars (**) that they have been more than once in custody—an obelisk (†) that they are known to be the associates of bad characters—the figures after the name in the indictment denote the prisoner's age.


OLD COURT.—Friday, February 3d, 1865.

Before Mr. Baron Martin.

30th January 1865
Reference Numbert18650130-218
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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218. SERAPHINI POLIONI (32), was indicted for the Wilful Murder of Michael Harrington. He was also charged on the Coroner's Inquisition with the like Murder.

MESSRS. GIFFARD and BEASLEY conducted the Prosecution, and MESSRS. RIBTON

and F. H. LEWIS the Defence.

FREDERICK SHAW . I am landlord of the Golden Anchor, Great Saffron-hill—I know the prisoner by sight—I have known him about three months, I think—on Monday evening, 26th December last, he came to my house about 6 o'clock; it might have been a few minutes before 6—I and my wife were in the bar, very busy—the prisoner made some remark to her—I don't think she took any notice, and it passed on—I did not hear what he said, but he made some allusion towards myself; he said he could kill any such six Englishmen like me—I took no notice of that—I never spoke to the man in my life until after the occurrence took place—he stayed there some few minutes, and left—there were five or six others with him, all of them foreigners—they remained when he left—about a quarter of an hour or twenty minutes after that, I saw a foreigner of the name of Gregorio, or some such name—he was speaking Italian, and all of a sudden I saw his arm go up, and he struck me just by the side of the mouth with his fist—there were three or four other people there—this was at a little side-box leading from the taproom into the bar—it was not inside the taproom—I was in the bar at the time, on the side leading to the taproom—there were several foreigners in the taproom, I believe—there is a door from the taproom and a small passage into the bagatelle-room—there are two steps and a small passage between—there was no disturbance in the taproom till Gregorio struck me—after he struck me I was about to get over the bar to him, and he went into the taproom among the others—some of the customers in another compartment rushed round the bar and caught hold of me, and I was dragged into the bar-parlour, or as far as the door, on that occasion; I was about going into the taproom, but I was prevented, and pushed into the bar-parlour by several of the customers—I then went as far as the door and looked out, and saw Richard Fawell, 425, A—when I went out, I saw some of the Italians rushing out

of the house—I went out to look for a policeman, and Fawell came in with me—he went into the taproom, and then several of them got hold of me and pushed me into the bar-parlour, and there held me—I saw no more till the prisoner was dragged out of the bagatelle-room—I saw him being brought from the bagatelle-room in custody of the police—I saw Michael Harrington, the deceased, brought outside into the bar-parlour—I heard that he had been stabbed, and I raised his clothes, or his shirt rather, which was all he had on at that time, except his trousers, and saw his bowels protruding—I did not observe what sort of a wound it was at the time—he was taken by the constable to the hospital.

Cross-examined. Q. I observe you say that when the prisoner came in on 26th December, he said something to your wife? A. I believe he did as he passed; we were very busy—I did not hear what he said—I believe my wife is somewhere about the Court—it was to me he spoke about killing the English—I was within a foot of him, and he turned direct towards me and spoke—he said, "I could kill six any such Englishmen like you"—I am satisfied that is correct—I do not make the slightest mistake about it—I have always been certain that those were the exact words he made use of—I have been examined three or four times, I suppose, or two or three; I can't say—I was examined before the Magistrate on the first occasion, and afterwards before the Coroner.

Q. I will read to you what you said before. "He said they would settle me, and that he could settle any six Englishmen like me;" do you observe that you said "settle" there? A. I might have made the mistake in the confusion—I should think it is to the same effect—I should think now that the word "settle" was used—he might have used the word "settle"—I should take it to mean the same if used towards me, and I think you would too—he might have said either "settle" or "kill," I could not swear to it—he then went away—there were a number of Italians in the taproom at that time—I did not go in to see how many there were, but I should think from what I did see there were a dozen or fifteen—you can go into the bagatelle-room through the taproom, and there is another way—there is a door from the taproom into the bagatelle-room—I should think the size of the bagatelle-room is about twenty feet by twelve—there were chairs in it and a bagatelle-board in the corner, and a table on which refreshments are put for the people who are there—I told you there were about twelve or fifteen in the taproom; it would hold about as many again—there were about a dozen in the bagatelle-room, I should think, all English—there were no Italians in the bagatelle-room—I can't say whether other Italians came in with the prisoner—at the time the prisoner made use of the expression to me, the Italians were distributed about the room; they go in and out of the taproom very freely—I daresay they had gone in—there were only Italians in the taproom, no English at all to my knowledge—I did not go in to see—I can't say how long the Italians had been there—the prisoner went out about 6, I suppose—there had been some dancing in the house before that, being Christmas-time, in the taproom—I had seen the prisoner about three times previous to this—I can't say whether he had been dancing or not—the dancing was not going on between 5 and 6, before 5; I think it might have been between 4 and 5—there was nothing after 5; I would not be certain to a few minutes—I mentioned the name of Gregorio, not Rigorio; I thought you said "Rigorio"—I did not understand that was the man you meant for certain, because there are so many names alike—he struck me—I have learnt his name is Gregorio; I did not know the man's

name till afterwards—I have said before to-day that he struck me; I said so at the Police-court before the Magistrate—I am sure of that—I signed my depositions, and they were read over to me—I have been in the police-force—I did say that Gregorio struck me; I swear that—I was examined before the Coroner also. (The witness's deposition being read, stated that Gregorio was excited, but did not state that he was struck by Gregorio.)

Q. That is what you said before the Coroner; you introduce the name of Gregorio, and say he was very excited, but you don't say one word of his having struck you? A. I could not say anything about him till I heard his name—I did not know his name till the following morning—very likely I mentioned his name before the Coroner; I did not go before the Coroner for a week after it occurred; I had plenty of time to learn his name then—Gregorio said something about my striking an Italian, or something of that sort—I can scarcely understand what they say—I understood the prisoner—he can speak as good English as I can; better English than he can Italian—I could not say distinctly what it was Gregorio said—he was muttering; he is an excitable fellow—I saw his arm go up; lie was then standing in front of me—I was in the bar; he was on the other side of the bar—it was his left arm I saw go up, and then it was he struck me in the month—he then rushed into the taproom, and I saw no more of him.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. Was it the fact that you had had any scuffle with an Italian? A. I had turned one out the Saturday night previous.

MR. RIBTON. Q. Was your father-in-law there? A. Not at that time; he was there some time before, I believe before this happened between me and Gregorio—I can't say where he was when Gregorio struck me—he was not in the bar—I don't know where he was—I believe he was in the house—he was in the house when the transaction occurred about Harrington—I can't say where he was—I believe he is not here to-day.

ALFRED REBBECK . I am potman at the Golden Anchor—on 26th December, I was engaged serving in the bagatelle-room—I went into the bar for a pipe—the entrance into the bar is at the end of the bagatelle-room—the door which leads from the taproom is at the side of the bagatelle-room—there is also another way into the bar through the taproom—I passed through the taproom to get to the door at first, before I went for the pipe—as I passed through the taproom I saw a great many Italians all together; among others was the prisoner—he was there by the door of the taproom—one of the other Italians named John spoke to me as I went out—the prisoner might have heard what John said; I can't say whether he heard it or not—in consequence of what John said, I went back into the bagatelle-room—when I got there, I made a statement to the Englishmen there—no one went and tried to shut the door then—I was asked for a pipe, and I went into the bar by the bagatelle-room door—there were no Italians in the bagatelle-room then—I got the pipe and brought it back into the bagatelle-room—when I got back I saw one of them knocking Mrs. King down—she was at the door at that moment, in the doorway going to the taproom—there were not several people together then—Seraphini, the prisoner, was leading the way in; he was first—I told him I did not want any row here—as I got up to the door, the prisoner stabbed me in the right side—I saw the knife—I don't know what sort of a knife it was—I did not see the handle; I only saw the blade of it—I had known Seraphini before; I have known him for the last four or five years—when he stabbed me, I hit him in the head with a stick, a broom-handle—he ran at me again after I hit him in the head, with the knife still in his hand—I was then just inside

the bagatelle-room door—I heard one of them say, "Here is one in the room; look out, here is one in the room"—Mrs. King was behind the door then—Boon after, I turned round and saw Seraphim on the top of Harrington—there was no other Italian besides the prisoner in the room at that time, that I saw—I rushed on Seraphini, caught him by the collar, and then lost my senses—I am still a patient at the hospital.

Cross-examined. Q. Have you ever said before to-day that there was no other Italian in the bagatelle-room? A. Yes; I said there was no other in the room at the Clerkenwell Police-court—I was asked the question there—the Magistrate asked me if there was any other in the bagatelle-room, and I said, "No"—my depositions were read over to me before I signed them—I believe the Magistrate asked me the question—since I was examined before the Magistrate nobody has asked me—I have not been asked about it—I had been in the bagatelle-room before I saw this happen—I had left the bagatelle-room to go through the bar for a pipe—a great many of them were in the bagatelle-room when I left it; English, not Italians; there was Harrington and another man of the name of Pikey, with one or two Irishmen—there were no Italians—there were Italians in the taproom; as near as I can judge, between twelve and fourteen—the taproom-door was open; the bagatelle-room door was not—the door from the bagatelle-room to the taproom was open; I passed through, but they would not let me go quite through—a man told me to go back, a man they call John, an Italian-struck the prisoner with a broom-handle—I brought it up to protect myself—there was a blind-roller there and a copper-stick, I believe—there were two blind-rollers, I believe—they were in the bagatelle-room—I brought them up about ten minutes before that, from down stairs, in the kitchen—I brought them into the bagatelle room, because one or two in the room said, "If they come in here, we will protect ourselves, "when I told them there was going to be a row—I can't say who it was who said that—the expression was not, "Bring us up as many sticks as you can"—they said, "We won't go out, we will wait here; if they break in on us, we will protect ourselves"—then, afterwards, one of them said, "How nice we should look; if they come in here with knives; what are we to do, we have only got our hands?"—they then asked me if I would have sticks ready to protect themselves if they came out, and I brought these up to them—there were two blind-rollers, a copper-stick, and a broom-handle I brought up; I believe that was all—there were not more, that I am aware of; I don't know, I did it all in a flurry at the time—I was in the bagatelle-room at the time I laid the broom-handle over the prisoner's head—after I brought the broom-handle up it was lying in the bagatelle-room; I put it down on the form—I don't know whether any of the sticks were broken; mine was not, that I am aware of—I don't know whether the prisoner's head was cut and bleeding—I hit him in the head—I did not see any other man's head cut—I was at the bagatelle-room door at the time he struck me with the knife—he was in the passage, coming from the taproom—he was nearer to the bagatelle-room than the taproom; he was right in the bagatelle-room door—the passage is about two feet wide, just about a little wider than this witness-box—as many as liked could come through, if they followed one another—I was nearer the bagatelle-room door than he was, because I was at the door—I was not looking into the bagatelle-room; I was looking at him coming, looking towards the taproom—when I saw Mrs. King knocked down, I was coming into the bagatelle-room with the pipe—it was not in the taproom that she was knocked down, it was in the passage—

she was leaving the bagatelle-room door—by the passage, I mean that passage which parts the bagatelle-room from the taproom—I was not in the taproom when she was knocked down; I was leaving the bar, and coming into the bagatelle-room with the pipe—she was going out of the bagatelle-room—I saw one of them knock her down—I don't know which it was; I can't say it was the prisoner; I don't know; I don't think it was him, but I can't say—I am not sure it was not him—I swear that—I can't swear whether it was him or not; it might be, and it might not—I can't say it was him.

Q. I will read to you what you said before the Magistrate. "I saw one of the party knock Mrs. King down; it was not Seraphini done that"? A. No—I say I daren't swear it was him or no; I said it was not him—I don't think it was him—I am not quite certain I did say so before the Magistrate; and I say now, I daren't say it was him of no—coming in in a flurry, and seeing them knocking about with their knives, I cannot be sure—the taproom was lighted up—there was a gas-burner there—the Italians were standing up in the taproom, all standing up ready, talking very loud when I went in—I was not there two minutes—I don't know a man of the name of Gregorio, not by name—I don't know the man who struck the landlord; I did not see that—I don't know what became of the man who knocked Mrs. King down—I daren't say who it was done that.

COURT. Q. You say you were going out to get a pipe? A. Yes, and I was struck at the door—when I was asked for the pipe, I put the broom-handle on the form near the door—I did not take it up before I was struck; I was stabbed before I took it up—I then took it up and struck the prisoner in the head—I only struck him once—he then made a run at me, and I put my hand to my side—it was shortly after that I saw Harrington and him on the floor.

MARIA KING . I am the wife of William King, of Leather-lane, a bone button manufacturer—I was with my husband on the night of 26th December at the Golden Anchor—we were in the bagatelle-room—Michael Harrington, the deceased, was there, and several others, English persons, in the same room—there were no Italians in that room; they were all English—I left the room, and proceeded to come out; that was from 6 o'clock to half-past—I was leaving to go home—my husband was there with Harrington and the other English persons in the room—I was coming out at the bagatelle-room door to pass through the passage—when I came to the door the prisoner knocked me down—he knocked me down with his fist, in the mouth.

Crow-examined. Q. There were a great many Italians there, were there not? A. I did not see but very few—there were none came in the room but the prisoner—none came in at the door but the one that knocked me down there were no Italians in the bagatelle-room—there was a rush when I was knocked down; it was at the bagatelle-room door where the rush was made—it was not in the passage that I was knocked down—it was in the bagatelle-room—I was stunned for a time; there was a rush, and I was knocked down, and I was insensible, and knew no more—I was opening the door, and I was knocked down by the prisoner, and there was a rush made directly—there was a rush made by the Italians at the time I was knocked down—I don't know where Rebbeck was at that time—I don't know how many Italians there were; what they did after I was knocked down I don't know—I saw no more till I saw the prisoner in custody, and then Harrington was on the floor—I did not see Rebbeck stabbed; I was on the ground—it was

not the rush that caused me to fall; it was the blow and the rush together the blow and the rush at the same time—the blow and the rush were simultaneous—the prisoner struck me with his fist—I could not tell you which fist it was; I did not see; I was struck before I saw his fist—I saw his face—I did not see the landlord struck—I saw no one struck.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. You say there was a rush of Italians when you were struck, were you able to see whether any Italians got into the bagatelle-room? A. No; I did not see, as I was knocked down.

RICHARD MELLERSHIP . I am a button-maker—on the night of 26th December, I was at the Golden Anchor, in the bagatelle-room—Michael Harrington was there; he sat opposite me, and when the Italian rushed in, he stood beside me—I had been singing a song when the Italian rushed in—Harrington was close by my side—Seraphini is the Italian who rushed in—the prisoner; no other Italian besides the prisoner got into the room—as he rushed in, he struck the deceased in the stomach with his right hand—it was a side blow—I did not see anything in his hand; but when Harrington was struck he fell to the ground—my wife was in the room at the time, close to me—she pulled me away from the side of Harrington after he fell—immediately she pulled me away, I observed some blood on her shawl—after I recovered, I went to Harrington again, and saw that he was stabbed.

Cross-examined. Q. Did you see Mrs. King? A. Yes; I did not see her struck—I saw her in the room after she was struck—I saw her partly on the ground—I saw several other Italians trying to get into the room, but they were forced back—there was a rush of Italians into the bagatelle-room, but they could not get in—they tried to get in, and they were forced back, after Harrington had fallen to the ground—they were not in then—no other than the prisoner came in; I mean to swear that—I have said that before—I swear that he was the only Italian that came into the room—(The witness's deposition being read, stated: "The prisoner rushed in first; there were several other Italians behind him; when the Italians came into the room, the deceased had just finished singing a song, and the prisoner, without having a word with him, struck the deceased, and he fell")—I have not been talking over this matter with anybody since; not with any of the witnesses or Mr. Shaw—I have seen him several times since—I have been to the house—I know Potter, the constable—I have not been talking with him about the case—I have never said anything about it; nor to Mr. Shaw, not in particular; not at all; there has been no allusion to it; only when Mr. Potter has told me to attend the Police-court, or anything like that—I mean to say that the name of the prisoner has never been mentioned, or the transaction been spoken of—I never talked it over every time I went in the house; it has not been the subject of conversation once between Shaw and Potter and me—I may have spoken once or twice about it, but I never had a general conversation about it—Harrington was about two feet from the door—I was examined before the Coroner, and before the Magistrate also—it was Stanley who knocked the prisoner down; he fell on Harrington—I did not see Mrs. King knocked down; I was about a yard from the door—I saw the rush made in the room after she was knocked down.

JURY. Q. Was there any confusion in the bagatelle-room before you say the prisoner came in? A. No; the confusion commenced by his knocking Mrs. King down—there was then a confusion by the rush of the Italians, attempting to get into the room.

GEORGE STANLEY . I am a painter and decorator—on 26th December, I

was at the Golden Anchor between 6 and 7 o'clock—I was in the bagatelle-room—there were no Italians in that room when I went in—I saw Seraphini. (the prisoner); I struck him on the head, you will find the mark now—I did not see him till he came into the bagatelle-room—the door was shut upon him immediately, he being the only Italian in the room—he was the first man that entered the room, and the door was shut immediately—there was no other Italian in the room at that time—as soon as he came in at the door he made a thrust at Harrington, he being nearest the door—it was not a straight-forward thrust, but a sort of side blow—that was the first thing I saw him do—Harrington fell—the prisoner then made his way towards the door to get out, but Bannister was standing in the way, and of course he was taking his own part, punching him—he was standing at the door, so that Seraphini should not go out; Seraphini struck him, and he was knocked down, and rolled under the bagatelle-board—I saw blood coming from Bannister's hand; I don't know whether it was his right or left band—I struck the prisoner on the head with a piece of wood, and he fell to the ground on the top of Harrington.

Cross-examined. Q. Did you see Mrs. King in the room? A. Yes; I did not see her knocked down, but I saw her coming in a funny sort of manner through the door—I did not see the man that struck her, because the man that struck her was in the tap-room—I did not see her on the ground—I cannot tell whether she was shoved, or pushed, or flung into the bagatelle-room—I saw her come stumbling backwards—whether she was shoved or pushed I don't know; it must have been either one or the other, I can't say which—I can't say whether she fell on the ground or not; I was looking after myself—I did not see a rush of Italians into the room; I saw a rush made to come into the room, but there was only that man that came in at the door, and the door was shut then, so that it was impossible for any more to come in—there would have been, if it had not been for our people keeping them back—the door was not opened immediately after Bannister was knocked down; I said to King, "Open the door, and let them come in one at a time, "and he opened the door a little way, and then Seraphini came in, and it was shut directly—Bannister was standing against the door when he was struck; I can't say whether his back was to the door or not—he was standing against the door at the time he struck him, and he rolled under the bagatelle-board—no one whatever came in but the prisoner—when Bannister was knocked down, there was nobody at the door to keep it closed, barring Mr. King; he was standing against the door—it was before any one came in that I told Mr. King to let them in one at a time; King was next to the door when Bannister was knocked down; I don't know whether or no he had the handle in his hand—Bannister was struck subsequently to the deceased being struck; Bannister was the last man they struck, and then I struck Seraphini on the head, and he fell upon Harrington, and then King and Mellership caught hold of him—at the time they caught hold of him the Italians had not rushed into the room—there was no one; I will swear that.

JOHN LIDDLE . I am a French polisher—I was in the Golden Anchor on the night of 26th December—I was in the bagatelle-room—I remember Michael Harrington, the deceased, singing a song—I sang one before him—just after he had sung his song, there was some confusion in the front room next the street, the tap-room; then there was some information given us—I saw the prisoner rush into the room, and strike at Harrington in this manner, and he fell—I had a stick in my hand, and I struck at the prisoner, and

another young man struck him as well as myself, and he fell on Harrington, and I heard Harrington say, "I am stabbed"—no other Italian besides the prisoner got into the room at the time.

Cross-examined. Q. Was there no other Italian at any time in the room? A. No, not one—there were about twelve or fourteen English—at no period of the proceedings, until the prisoner was taken away, was there any other Italian in the room; they were trying to get in—the prisoner rushed in, and others tried to get in afterwards, but they were knocked back, they rushed out; they were knocked back again—then the police were in in a second—they might have got in before the police came; I can't say—there might be two or three in the confusion, but I think the police had got the prisoner in hand at the time—I think not one Italian had got in before the police got in—they attempted to get in after the police came—there was not one in the room at the time Harrington was struck; I swear that—Mr. Shaw went for the police—I know he went, because he went out after the policeman; there happened to be a private policeman there, and he fetched another one in uniform—I know Mr. Shaw fetched the police—I have heard him say so; I can't swear it; I only go by what he said—I did not go for the police; I was in the room all the time—I am a French polisher by trade; I live at 10, South-square, Gray's-inn—I work at my trade; I am in constant work, and I employ men, too—I had business at the Golden Anchor—I had work to do the whole week there, polishing, up to the 26th, boxing-day—there were about twelve or fourteen English in the bagatelle-room; there were two women, or perhaps three; two I know, Mrs. King and Mrs. Mellerehip—I did not see Bannister struck—I saw Mrs. King knocked down; she was knocked down by Seraphini, as he rushed into the room—I know it was Seraphim—I don't go by what I have heard; what I see is positive—he was the only one that came in—she was not then in the passage; the door flew open, and she was partly thrown in—she was shoved and pushed against the door.

Cross-examined. Q. And you mean to say you saw who pushed or struck her? A. Who could it be but him?—there was no one else but Seraphini there; I say he was the one, I am positive; it was impossible it could be any one else—I did not see any other Italian in the room, not till afterwards; two or three made an attempt, or it might be three or four; but they were pushed back and struck at, and they rushed back; they withdrew as fast as they could.

JURY. Q. They did not get in at all? A. No, only just inside the door, and they rushed back again in a moment.

WILLIAM KING . I am a bone button manufacturer, and am the husband of Maria King—I was at the Golden Anchor this evening, in the bagatelle-room; between 6 and 7 o'clock—there were several of us, all English, except two Irishmen—I saw my wife go out to go home—I saw her knocked down—I did not see who knocked her down—I went and picked her up—at that time Seraphini had got into the bagatelle-room; nobody else; I never saw any one else—I saw Harrington there, and I saw the prisoner upon him; I took him off Harrington, and gave him into the bands of the constable—I kept him in hand all the time till the constable came in.

Cross-examined. Q. You say there was no other Italian got into the room? A. I never saw one—I was asked that question before, at Bagnigge-wells, and answered it; 1 mean when I was examined before the Magistrate—(The witness's deposition being ready stated: "The prisoner and other Italians came into the room.")—that is a mistake, because no one entered

the room but him—I did not see Bannister knocked down; I did not see the prisoner knocked down; I was knocked down myself behind the door—I can't say who knocked me down—no one has been talking to me about this since I was before the Magistrate; I have not been conversing with anybody about it—I swear that; I have never talked of it in the way of gossip and conversation over a pint of beer—I have never talked of it; I have heard other people talking; I did not join in it—I have read the papers; I have not seen my deposition that I made before the Magistrate since, only by reading' it in the papers—nobody has read it for me; nobody was with me when I read it; I generally read the paper myself—I have never spoken to anybody about the transaction since.

WILLIAM ELLIOTT (Policeman, G 137). I was called to the Golden Anchor on the night of 26th December last, by Fawell another constable—I went through the tap-room into the bagatelle-room—there were a number of Italians—I think they had just been making a rush; they were standing in a crowd together—I went to the bagatelle-room door; it was shut—I and Fawell forced it open—when I got into the room I found the prisoner in the custody of the witness King; he had hold of him—at the time I forced the door open there was no other Italian in the bagatelle-room besides the prisoner—I took him away—he had the handle of a broom in his hand.

Cross-examined. Q. Did you know the persons that were in the bagatelle-room? A. I knew some of them by sight—I dare say there were as many as twelve or fifteen—I did not notice any women in the tap-room; I thought you were talking of the tap-room—I only saw Italians in the tap-room—the prisoner was the only Italian I saw in the bagatelle-room—I expect if there had been any in there I should hate seen them as well as him—I have known pretty nearly all the Italians that have been there—I have been doing duty round that neighbourhood for a number of years, and I knew pretty well all the Italians in the tap-room—I did not notice any in the bagatelle-room—I swear I saw none, only the prisoner—he had a broom handle in his hand—I heard that a man had been wounded while I was in the tap-room—I did not search for a knife at that time; after leaving the prisoner at the station I returned back and then made a search—I can't say exactly who I found in the bagatelle-room after I came back; there was a number of people—I could not say whether it was the same party; there were no Italians—I think I have been asked before to-day whether there were any Italians besides the prisoner in the bagatelle-room—I may have been; I think I have—(The witness's deposition being read, did not contain any such statement)—there were no Italians in the bagatelle-room that I noticed, but the prisoner—I think I was asked that question before the Magistrate.

JURY. Q. How long have you been on that beat? A. About four year on and off.

RICHARD FAWELL (Policeman, A 425). I was passing the door of the Golden Anchor on this night, and was called in by the landlord—after that I fetched in the last witness Elliott, and he and I proceeded from the tap-room to the bagatelle-room—the bagatelle-room door was shut—we had first of all to pull the tap-room door open, and then push the bagatelle-room door open—I saw the prisoner there; he was in a stooping position, held by Mr. King—the deceased was in a corner of the room—I did not see any other Italians in the room—I took him into custody.

Cross-examined. Q. Did you follow the prisoner into the bagatelle-room? A. After I heard what I did from Rebbeck—I did not see Mrs. King

knocked down—I have not been looking out for another Italian—I have made inquiries for another; one particular one, who is supposed to be away—I have not been able to find him—he is known by the name of Gregorio—I know Mr. Wells, the father-in-law of Mr. Shaw—I have never taken anybody to Mr. Wells to see if he could identify him—I do not know whether or not that has been done—I saw Harrington lying on the ground—I did not know that he had been wounded—I did not know anything about Harrington till After I had returned from taking the prisoner to the police-station.

THOMAS AMBROSE POTTER (Police-inspector, G). In consequence of information I received, I took the prisoner in a cab to St. Bartholomew's Hospital, on the evening of 26th December—I was accompanied by Fawell, Elliott, and sergeant Baldock—on getting to the hospital I found the deceased in bed attended by Dr. Peerless—I took the prisoner to the bedside with a number of persons, I should think there were ten or twelve; as many as could possibly stand round the bed, and I think they were two deep at some places—I took hold of the deceased's hand and said, "Harrington," several times before I could arouse him—I said, "Do you understand what I am saying?"—he said, "Yes"—I said, "In consequence of what the doctor, who is now present, has told me, I must inform you that you have but a short time to live"—he said, "If I am to die, the Lord have mercy upon me, "then went off apparently into a doze, and with some difficulty with the assistance of the doctor we aroused him—I then asked him where he was hurt—he said, "In the belly, untie my belly,"—several times—I then asked him to look round his bed and see if there was any one there he knew—he looked round, pointed to the prisoner and said, "That is the man who did it; God bless him!"—I believe those were the words—I should not like to be exactly positive whether it was "God bless him, "or "God forgive him"—he then went off into I doze again—sergeant Baldock, who was by my side, wrote down what he said, because I had to hold his head up—I then read over what he had said and asked him to sign it—after I read it over, the prisoner said, "I do not understand English writing; I said, "What Harrington has said was that you did it"—the prisoner said, "Oh,"—that was all—the deceased refused to sign it, and repeated several times, "God bless him." or "God forgive him."

Cross-examined. Q. The prisoner had been taken in custody of course before that by Baldock? A. No—he had been in custody before that—I did not before that on any occasion hear him assert or declare that he never used a knife; I do not know it of my own knowledge only what I have heard other witnesses say—when the deceased pointed to the prisoner he said, "That is the man that did it, the man with a black moustache"—I forgot to tell you that before—I did not forget it before the Magistrate, the occurence was fresh in my memory then—I did not forget it before the coroner—I swore to that fact before the coroner, whether it is there or not—I do not find fault with the clerks or throw it upon them—I cannot give any explanation of why it is not in the deposition—I did not say it to-day till I was cross-examined—the prisoner appeared to have a black moustache, he does not, as he is sitting there, but it is not so long now—it certainly appeared more black than it does now—I have been on the lookout for three other Italians, but not for one more than another—Mr. Wells, Shaw's father-in-law, has not been assisting me—I was not aware that any one had been taken to Mr. Wells to see if he could identify him—I do not know Carlo Chasana or Gregorio Geratti—none have been taken to my knowledge,

or brought to me—I have been looking out for some men—I went to the—Bordeasa public-house to look after those men—Mr. Wells did not accompany me there—I have had a man specially employed for a few days to look after them, his name is Fawell, I believe he was the last witness, he is in Court; but the inquiries have ceased—I was looking for the others by the Magistrate's instructions; I also used my own discretion in the matter—I found three others were concerned in the matter, and I felt it my duty to look after them—I believe I asked Shaw some time ago whether he knew where the four men were to be found who were wanted for aiding and abetting in the transaction—I have heard the names you mentioned, but I do not know the men—yon asked me if I knew them, and I told you no—no men were apprehended to my knowledge—I went to the Three Tuns public-house with three other constables in private clothes who are not here—I heard that some of the men were there, the first man you mentioned, and went up into the room where I expected, to find him, but he had just gone—there were several Italians sitting round a table, but I saw no one asleep or with his head lying down on the table, or I should have taken the opportunity of looking at him—there was no one with his head down—I did not ask anybody if that was the man, because I had got a constable' of the C division with me, I forget his name, who knew him well—Mr. Wells was not with me; I swear that, but not feeling exactly satisfied from what I had heard, that the man was in the house, I sent for Mr. Wells afterwards to go and look in front of the bar, to see if he could see him, and whether he told me or one of the constables that he could not see him I cannot say—I did not tell you before that Mr. Wells gave me no assistance at all; I swear that—that was the only occasion that I had a conversation with Mr. Wells, with reference to the men who are away—Mr. Wells was not asked to identify the men he saw at the public-house that night—I sent for him to see if he could see one of those persons in front of the bar who had made their escape on the 26th—I do not know whether he must have been present and seen it all—I should not have sent for him unless I had believed he had—I do not know that a man named Charles Chasana was taken by a detective in plain clothes to Great Saffron-hill and shown to me; there was a man standing at the corner, and I was asked by a civilian, who I did not know, if that was one of the men who ran away, but he did not answer the description—Fawell gave me the description—there were four or five different descriptions—one was, "dressed in dark clothes, fresh colour, no whiskers, whiskers shaved off, "and so on—another was, "No whiskers, "and so on—I had the description of four—I have not got the descriptions here—I have no interest in it, I cannot be accurate in giving it to you, and I shall not do it—I do not recollect the description of the four as I received it, because I took it down in writing—I did not send for Mr. Wells on more than one occasion; it might have been—me who sent for him once, I will not be certain whether I sent for him or one of the other officers did, it is a matter of so little difference—(Three men were here brought into Court)—I do not know that I ever saw those men before in my life—no men were brought to me, but I saw a man standing; that was on the night after the murder, the 27th—I saw him near the Three Tuns—that was not when I went up stairs and sent for Mr. Wells—I do not know Bondessa; if he is the landlord I do not know him; I never spoke to the man in my life—I went up stairs at the Three Tons, if that is the house you are speaking of—I did not speak to the land-lord, I did not see him—I never spoke to any one in the house but a female

—I did not go to the Three Tuns; I did not ask permission to search it, nor did anybody—I spoke to a female at the bottom of the stairs, and said, "Which is your parlour?"—she put her hand in this way, and I walked up stairs—Wells was not with me, I sent for him after I had left the house—I saw several foreigners in front of the bar when I came down, and whether I or one of the others sent for him I do not know, therefore I shall not say—the other man who was shown to me was close to the public-house I did not say that there was a man upstairs who I looked at, but did not take—I looked at the foreigners up in the room—when I sent for Mr. Wells it was not to look at one of those who were in the Three Tons—I dare say it was done through me or one of the other officers—I had never spoken to Mr. Wells but once in my life; it was to look at the foreigners in front of the bar, but I do not think I spoke to Mr. Wells—the party I saw who did not coincide was standing near the public-house; I said that he was not the man—I cannot say who the man was who called ray attention to him; he was a policeman, and I believe of the C division, I had get him there special—I looked at the man he pointed out—I did not examine him well; I could see he did not answer the description, knowing that those people have left the country, I did not further search—I cannot remember the description of the four men now, but I could then so as to say that that was not one of them—the description had reference to a man with a dark moustache, that was the description, I believe of two of them.

JURY. Q. Was it night-time or daytime that you were at the hospital? A. On the same night about 10 o'clock, I first went to the Royal Free Hospital to a man who has been examined to-day, before I went to Harrington—among the men who stood round Harrington's bed there were men who I believe I have seen at the public-house, but I should not like to be too positive.

CHARLES DURRANT PEERLBSS . I am house-surgeon of St. Bartholomew's hospital—I remember the deceased being brought there on the night of 26th December, about 7 o'clock—he was in a state of great collapse—I found an incised wound about an inch and three-quarters long on his abdomen, through which the intestines were protruding—it was close to the navel—there were also four wounds in the protruding intestines—there was a great deal of hæmorrhage—I put back the intestines, closed the wound, and put the poor man to bed—he died about half-past 3 next morning—he was conscious when Inspector Potter came at half-past 8, and I told him that he had not many hours to live—I was present when a number of men were round his bed—I had then told him that he bad not long to live.

COURT. Q. At that time did the man, according to your judgment, believe he was in a dying state? A. Yes.

Cross-examined by MR. LEWIS. Q. There were six wounds were there not? A. There were six wounds in the intestines—I made a post-mortem examination and found two more afterwards—I should say undoubtedly that the six wounds were produced by the same stroke of the knife; the same stroke of the knife which produced one wound in the abdomen would also produce those several wounds in the intestines; it might have moved in the abdomen, but it was not withdrawn and put in again—it is possible that the wounds in the intestines could have been made after they protruded, but very improbable—I do not think they were produced afterwards.

COURT. Q. Was his death produced by that wound? A. Clearly.

GEORGE BALDOCK (Police-sergeant, G 1). On the night of 26th December the prisoner was brought to the station by Fawell and Elliott—Fawell

charged him with stabbing Rebbeck—I asked the prisoner if he understood English—he said yes—I examined his hands, and found his right hand covered with blood—I found an old knife on him which had not been used for some time—I pointed out the blood on his hands to him, and he said, "I only protected myself"—I got intelligence directly that a man had been taken to the hospital, but I did not know it was Harrington—I heard of Harrington's death about 7 next morning—I then told the prisoner that he was charged with the wilful murder of Michael Harrington, by stabbing him in the belly with a knife—he said, "I never used a knife."

Cross-examined. Q. Did you take down that statement in writing? A. Yea—I have not got it here; it was produced at the police-court, and I never saw it afterwards—the Magistrate said it was of no use, they could not take it, and it was put on one side.

Witnesses for the Defence,

ANN SAMS . I live at King Edward-street, Mile End—between 5 and 6 o'clock, on the evening of 26th December, I was at the Golden Anchor—I danced one dance with the prisoner; I did not finish it—he went out of the public-house when I ceased to dance with him—it was then between 5 and 6, as near as I can tell—I recollect the row commencing; I was then in front of the bar—I did not see the prisoner in the house then; I saw another man, who I knew by the name of Gregorio, with a dark moustache—he is like the prisoner—I saw him strike the blow at Mr. Shaw, who was standing in front of the bar—I do not know what he said, I saw him strike the blow and shake his hand—I do not know whether he spoke in Italian, I rushed into the dancing-room—he struck Mr. Shaw in the side box; I then saw Gregorio shake his head and bite his teeth with passion at Mr. Shaw, and Mrs. Shaw pushed her husband away, and told him to go into the parlour—Gregorio's brother was with him—I saw them both rush from the side box, to open the side door, to go to the bagatelle-room;—they opened the dancing-room door first—I saw Gregorio's brother open the door of the dancing-room, and then he pushed the bagatelle-room door open—there are two doors to the bagatelle-room—I did not see what was done in the bagatelle-room—when Gregorio and his brother rushed into the side box there were other Italians there fighting with one another—Gregorio was the first one that came out of the bagatelle-room; him and his brother—Gregorio came out without a cap—he said to another man, "Come outside, it is all right, "in English—his brother seemed in the heat of passion then, and very white—I saw no blood—I was too frightened to look at him—I went into the side box where Mr. Shaw was first struck—I heard Gregorio call Mr. Wells a b----yold b----rhis brother then asked him who it was kept him out—he said nobody kept him out but the Italians, and he said, "You b----y old b----r, if you come out I will serve you the same, "or "serve you like it"—Gregorio said that to Mr. Wells—I fetched a cab for Mr. Shaw—there was another cab there before that cab got to Mr. Shaw's house—I had not heard before I went for the cab that any one had been wounded, and I did not know who it was for; Mr. Shaw asked me to fetch it, and I did.

Cross-examined by MR. GIFTARD. Q. How do you get your living? A. By brush-drawing—I carry on my business in Bury-street, St. Mary-are—I went to the Golden Anchor with a friend, not the prisoner; I was in before he came in—Mr. and Mrs. Murphy were my friends; I believe they are here—I went out into the bar after the dance which I had with the prisoner

—I did not finish the dance because I was frightened that I should fall down, he treading on my frock—I went out into the bar—when you are in the bar you cannot see into the taproom—there is a door from the taproom into the street—that is the door you go in first, into the public-house—I do not know whether there is a door from the taproom which leads into the street straight—when the prisoner parted with me, after the dance was finished, I never saw him again that night—I had not heard that anybody had been stabbed when I left the house—I was in the dancing-room when I saw Gregorio and his brother at the bagatelle-room door—there is the door of the tap-room, and then a small passage in the door of the bagatelle-room—I was at the other side of the room when I saw Gregorio and his brother—I did not see what was done in the bagatelle room door; when the door is open you can see the other door, if you are in front, and I was in front—I was on the other side of the tap-room when Gregorio rushed out of the tap-room—I can't tell you how many people made the rush, or who they were—I have not seen any of them here to-day—I know Gregorio's brother; he is not here—I knew him before—I never had conversation with Gregorio; I only knew him by seeing him in company with other men—I did not see him that night for the first time; I had seen him before—I did not see Mrs. King knocked down—I did not see her, or any woman near the bagatelle-room door at all.

MR. RIBTON. Q. How do you say you get your living; what do you work at? A. Brush-drawing—I have no place of my own; I work at Bury-street, St. Mary-axe—my master has an English name—I have worked there between five and six months—I have not been in the habit of going much to the Golden Anchor, since I have lived at Mile-End New-town—I am not a girl of the town, and I should not like to be one; I get my living honestly—I did not see any knives—I was in the dancing-room then—that was, as near as I can tell, about twenty minutes after the prisoner left me—I saw a rush made but I can't tell how many made it—I never heard that they were using knives at all.

Q. You told my friend you heard they were using knives, and that you heard that about twenty minutes after the prisoner had left you? A. I did not hear they were using knives; I heard they were fighting in the bagatelle-room, and in the dancing-room they were fighting with sticks from one door to the other—I heard nothing about knives that night—a cab was sent for; I went for it, Mrs. Shaw asked me to do so; she did not tell me who it was for, and I did not know till after I came back; I was absent about ten minutes—I came back, and then heard that Mr. Harrington was stabbed—I do not know whether he had been removed from the house before I got back.

ROCIO ANGELINETTA . I reside at 73, St. John-street, Clerkenwell—I had a person named Gregorio in my employment; he resided in my house—I have not seen him from 26th December up to this time—he was not under notice to leave—I did not know that he was not going to return—I believe he came back that evening, but I did not see him—his things are not there—I knew next morning that they were gone—he was like the prisoner—on Christmas-day he shaved in the same manner as the prisoner—previous to that he had a short shaggy beard—his moustaches were about the same colour.

GIOVANNI MARIZZONI . I reside at 1, Frances-court, Bickley-street, Clerkenwell—I know Gregorio very well—he came to my house on 26th December,

about a quarter to 10 at night, and asked me whether I would allow him to sleep on the shavings in my workshop—I said, "Yes, "and asked him whether he had left his master.

Q. Did he say anything to you about anything that occurred at the Golden Anchor? (MR. GIFFARD objected to this question, the prisoner not being present on the occasion. MR. RIBTON contended that he was entitled to prove two things; first, that the prisoner was not the man; and, second, that somebody else was the man, and that an expression made use of by Gregorio, though in the prisoner's absence, was part of the res gestae, and could be given in evidence. The COURT considered that there was not the slightest pretence for supposing the evidence admissible)—Gregorio very much resembles the prisoner.

COURT. Q. Were you examined before the Justices? A. No.

GASPANE MOOSI . I know a man named Gregorio; I have not seen him since 26th December—I know the prisoner very well; Gregorio is very much like him in appearance—I was in the Golden Anchor on the night when Harrington was wounded—I was in the taproom—there is a passage going into the bar, and I saw Gregorio there; I saw nothing in his hand—he said, "You want six Italians; I will have six English, "and then he gave him a punch in the mouth—I afterwards heard that Harrington had been wounded—I was the last Italian who was there—Harrington was removed to the bar-parlour—when I came out he was there—Gregorio had left about a quarter of an hour before that; before I saw him brought into the bar-parlour—I saw the prisoner there that evening, about five or ten minutes past 5—he asked me how I spent ray Christmas; he was in the taproom in the passage where we come to the bar—he was sober—that was the last I saw of him—he said, "I will go and have a dance, and go on home"—I did not see him leave, but I asked, and somebody said he was gone—I saw Gregorio strike Mr. Shaw, and then go into the bagatelle-room, and in two minutes I saw the people rush out, and a chap held the door not to let them out—I moved opposite—they opened the door and I saw five or six sticks, fighting, and three or four Italians were there—that was the taproom—I did not see anything going on in the bagatelle-room, only they were going from one door to the other—I saw Gregorio with a knife in his hand; he showed it to Mrs. Shaw, and said, "If you do not go and get my bat from the bagatelle-parlour I will give you one, and afterwards I will give it to your father:" he meant, "I will stab you and stab your father"—he had a knife in his band; I saw the handle of it but not the end—Mrs. Shaw said, "Do not he stupid; I will go and get your hat"—I do not know whether she got it, but I said to Gregorio that the prisoner was looked up, and then he moved out of the room with the knife—directly after that I saw the deceased carried out of the public-house wounded—Gregorio came from the bagatelle-parlour, and I saw nothing more of him—Mr. Wells was there, and he said to me and my wife, "You had better go out"—they sent me out at the side door, and I saw no more.

Cross-examined by MR. GLEPARD. Q. Where were you when Gregorio came from the taproom? A. I was in the taproom—I did not see who went in—I cannot tell whether Gregorio got into the room or not—it was about half-past 7 in the evening when I last saw the prisoner—I have not seen him since he left me—he left the Golden Anchor about a quarter past 6, and went away—I cannot tell you how he got back into the bagatelle-room.

PIETRO MAZZNELI . (Through an interpreter). I was at the Golden Anchor public-house on the evening of 26th December, between 6 and 7 o'clock—I

saw a man there named Gregorio, who I knew before—he resembles the prisoner very much—I saw him without his hat in the public-house, and saw the landlady, Mrs. Shaw, give him his hat.

Cross-examined by MR. GIFFARD. Q. Were you in company with the prisoner that night? A. I was inside the door, but not in his company—I knew him before—I knew several of the Italians, but not all—I have seen the bagatelle-room door open and shut several times, but I cannot distinctly say whether I saw Gregorio go in or not—I saw a number of people rush to the door—I did not see the mistress or anyone knocked down.

GOTTARDO BERCINI . (Through an interpreter.) I was at the Golden Anchor on the evening of 26th December, when Harrington was wounded—I saw a man named Gregorio there—I knew him well—I have been working six or eight months with him—he resembles the prisoner.

Cross-examined by MR. GIFFARD. Q. Were the prisoner and Gregorio friends? A. I do not know—I only saw Gregorio alone that night—I did not see the prisoner there at all.

MR. RIBTON. Q. What time did you see Gregorio? A. Between 6 and 7—I heard of Harrington being wounded—I saw a person carried into the parlour, I do not know if it was Harrington—I was in front of the bar—Gregorio was not there at that time—I saw him about ten minutes before the man was carried into the parlour—he was then in front of the bar carrying away his hat—when he came to the front of the bar I could not tell whether he came out of any room, or from the street—the landlady, Mrs. Shaw, cave him his hat, and said to him, "Go away; run away? and about ten minutes afterwards he left the house—I only heard him say to Mrs. Shaw, "Give me my hat"—he was not very much excited then—I did not observe whether he had anything in his hand; I did not see anything—there was an Italian there with him—there were very few persons there at the time Mrs. Shaw gave him his hat—when he asked for it I was not able to see what was going on in the bagatelle-room—I heard nothing said before I saw the man, whoever he was, carried into the parlour.

GRACHOMO MONTOA . (Through an interpreter). I live at 23, Brook-street, Hatton Garden—on 26th December, I was at the Bordessa public-house—it is not five minutes walk from the Golden Anchor—the prisoner was there—a person came in and said something to me—I saw Gregorio at the Bordessa that night—the prisoner left about five minutes after the person spoke to me that person did not make a communication to the prisoner—there was only—the prisoner and Bordessa, not Gregorio—I saw Gregorio after the row was over, not exactly inside the Bordessa, but in front of the house, between 7 and a quarter past—he said he had wounded three men—I only met him outside the public-house, and a conversation took place between us—the prisoner was then already in the hands of the police—when the prisoner left the house he was alone, and I went after him as far as the door of the Golden Anchor—when I arrived there, I met him in the hands of a policeman, who laid his hand on his head—five minutes after that Gregorio came to the Bordessa public-house—he did not make any sign to me—he said nothing—the statement that he made previously was between Bordessa's house and another house opposite—I have not seen Gregorio since.

Cross-examined by MR. GIFFARD. Q. You say the prisoner left the Bordessa? A. Yes; I went towards the door of the Golden Anchor, and saw him in the hands of the police, holding his hand to his head—there was about ten minutes between those two times.

FRANCISCO PONZINL (Through an interpreter). On the night of 26th

December I was in the Golden Anchor, and saw the prisoner enter—he entered very quietly—I did not see him throw anybody on the ground coming in.

GRACHOMO BULETI . (Through an interpreter.) I was at the Golden Anchor on the evening of 26th December, and saw several Italians in the taproom—I saw the bagatelle-room door—they kept the door shut, and after a moment it was opened from the inside—I then saw several Englishmen come out with sticks in their hands; then I saw a mixture of English and Italians together, fighting—I stopped in the house about ten minutes, and when I left I heard something respecting some one being wounded—I know Gregorio—I met him in Hatton Wall after I left the Golden Anchor—that was about a quarter of an hour after I heard that somebody had been wounded—he had nothing in his hands—I did not see him in the public-house—I knew him before—I worked six months with him—he resembles the prisoner.

Cross-examined by MR. GIFFABD. Q. Did you see the prisoner there that night? A. No.

PIETRO MARALIZZI . (Through an interpreter.) I live at 4, Flowery-court, Gray's-inn-lane—on 26th December, between 6 and 7 o'clock, I was at the Golden Anchor—I saw Gregorio there—he asked Mr. Shaw, the landlord, if it was him that would knock down six Italians—he gave Mr. Shaw a blow—there were a lot wishing to get into the bagatelle-room—I do not know whether they did get in the moment they wished to go into the bagatelle-room—I was caught by the collar of my coat by some person, and was dragged out—Gregorio was standing with a knife in his left hand; nobody addressed him—I did not see Mrs. Shaw—I did not hear her say anything to him at any time—I said, "For God's sake, Gregorio, put away that knife"—he said, "Let me alone"—I do not know what became of him after that—there was great confusion towards the bagatelle-room—I did not hear of the man being wounded—I met Gregorio after that in Cross-street, between the pump and the school, and he put his hand on my neck.

ELIZABETH LAMBERT . I was at the Golden Anchor on this night—I came there to see a friend—I was in the back parlour when it first commenced I do not know a man named Gregorio—I did not see anybody strike the landlord—there was a great row in the bagatelle-room, and confusion—they were quarrelling and fighting—the landlady came in and said that the Italians were in, and three or four of them were using their knives.

(MR. GIFFARD objected to this as hearsay evidence. MR. RIBTON contended that in the case of Lord George Gordon, hearsay evidence was admitted, because it was explanatory of the transaction, and requested the Court to reserve the point for the consideration of the Judges. THE COURT declined to admit the evidence, or to reserve the point.)—the landlady ran into the bar-parlour—I had one view just as the door was open, and I saw the Italians and the others up towards the fire-place fighting—I mean in the bagatelle-room—there were fourteen or sixteen Italians in the bagatelle-room—I did not hear of anybody being wounded then—I saw the police drag the man out of the bagatelle-room—I had seen fighting going on only just about two minutes before that—the door of the bagatelle-room was only just pushed open, one ran in and another ran out—fighting was going on then—there was a man passed into the bagatelle-room, and I looked through the door at the time.

Cross-examined by MR. GIFFARD. Q. Where were you when you got a glance into the bagatelle-room. A. In the bar—when you are in the bar you can see the passage between the bagatelle-room and the taproom, you

can see the entrance—there are two doors to the bagatelle-room, and I got the glance through what they call the bagatelle-room door; through that door which is right opposite the bagatelle-room—I was looking through the door which leads from the bar-parlour into the bagatelle-room—you cannot see that door from the taproom; that is further on—I saw fourteen or fifteen or perhaps sixteen Italians—there were a great many in there together—I called them Italians—I mean people altogether, I do not know how many Italians were there, but a good many ran in directly I entered, and as I entered—no one went in through the door through which I was looking, and I could not see the other door.

Q. You say none ran in through the door through which you looked, will you swear you were there that night at all? A. Yes; I saw Rebbeck there after he was stabbed—I did not see Mellership or Liddle; I saw a big man; I have been in Court, but have not heard his name called to-day—I saw a lot of fighting up by the fire-place, but cannot tell Who was there, or even whether the big man was there.

MR. RIBTON. Q. Have you been out of Court all day? A. Yes.

LIBALIO PEDRAZOLLI . (Through an interpreter.) I live in Princes-street—I was at the Golden Anchor on 26th December, and saw Gregorio there—I saw him give the landlord a blow, immediately after which the landlord left the house and so did Gregorio, who then opened a knife—I did not see him do anything with it, only opening it, but he told me he wound go in and do for the Englishmen—he opened the knife and said, "I will go in and settle all the lot by myself; I will clear them out"—he went in, and I saw him enter the room with the knife open, and there was a scuffle, but I did not see him use the knife—the scuffle was at the door of the bagatelle-room—I could see Gregorio among the English, with the knife open; I then left—I did not hear of a man being wounded.

Cross-examined. Q. Where were you? A. Between the corridor and the dancing-room between the dancing-room and the taproom—when I saw the knife open, I went and watched at the door—I could see inside, but could not see what was doing—I was in the middle of the room in which Gregorio took out his knife and said that he would clear out all the English—I said nothing—I was a friend of his—I knew him to speak to him—it was only just at the moment that he was showing the knife that I looked into the room—there is a passage between the bagatelle-room and the taproom, between the two doors—Gregorio went in at one door, and came out at another—when I saw him the last time it was at the entrance of the bagatelle-room door—I am not able to say whether he had ever got into the bagatelle-room—the first time I saw him go in I showed him the knife open, and then I looked in, and saw Gregorio in the midst of the people—I did not see him inside the bagatelle-room, because he came out—I saw him at the entrance—the moment he was entering, the room I left.

MR. RIBTON. Q. Did you see Gregorio with a knife among a number of Englishmen? A. Yes, the first time was in the dancing-room; that is at the entrance of the bagatelle-room.

DOMINICO CETTI . (Through an interpreter.) I live at 40, Hatton-garden—I was at the Bordessa public-house on 26th November; a man named Gregorio came in and gave me a knife—he made a statement to me—I held the knife a little while, and then threw it into the yard of the Bordessa—Gregorio resembles the prisoner much.

THOMAS COWLAND . I am pot-boy at the Bordessa—on 27th December, I found a knife in the urinal—I gave it up to a woman between 11 and

12 o'clock—I thought it was her husband's—I opened it, it had been lying in the water all night—I picked it up out of the water—it looked rusty, but I did not think of this affair—she said that it was her husband's, and I gave it to her in the morning—I assisted Inspector Potter to get it again—(Two knives produced by Inspector Potter.)—this is not the knife, nor is this—it is like this only the spring is broken.

T. A. POTTER (re-examined). This is the one I received from the witness.

THOMAS COWLAND (re-examined). The knife I found and gave to Inspector Potter, was looser than this.

Cross-examined by MR. GIFFARD.

Q. Do you really mean that this is not the knife you gave to Inspector Potter? A. This is not the knife—I do not know whether Fawell the constable was present when it was handed—I may know if I see him, there were five or six of them there.


Q. Was the knife like that? A. Just like it—I kept it in my pocket about two hours without looking at it; it was exactly like this but the knife was looser than this.

GEORGE AYTON . I live at 27, Charles-street, Hatton-garden—on the night of 26th December, there was a disturbance in the tap-room, after which young Rebbeck came into the bagatelle-room, where I was; from the taproom—he pulled his trousers up, and the blood was all pouring down his legs—he showed it to me, and said it was nothing only a cut on the knee; directly after that he got out at a window at the back, and got some sticks which were broken up, and laid on the bagatelle-board—during that time there was a disturbance again, and fighting between the doorways and in the little passage—I cannot say who by, because there were a great many of them, English as well as other parties—there was no fighting in the bagatelle-room—I saw Harrington wounded by the door, and saw Seraphim there—the door was pushed open, Mrs. King was struck on the mouth, and the prisoner came in with another behind him, but he was stopped by a man they call John, who used to play the organ there—all I saw the prisoner do was to give a back-handed blow—there was nothing in his hand; I will swear that—he was knocked down by a young man they call Painter, struck over the head with a stick, and Harrington fell from the blow—Painter struck the prisoner on the head and knocked him on top of Harrington—a man named King laid hold of the prisoner by the collar, and held him down till two policemen came—I did not hear of Harrington being wounded—nobody knew that he was wounded but when the prisoner was taken off of Harrington they took the prisoner away, and me and Mr. King lifted Harrington up, and put him on a seat behind the door—I went and asked for a drop of water, took it into the bagatelle-room, and bathed his face because we thought he was faint from being knocked down—we did not know that he was wounded—there was no fighting after that—I saw no knife in anybody's hand—I did not see any of the Italians get into the bagatelle-room; they were kept back with the sticks—the man who plays the organ, who came in behind him, is an Italian—he did not get into the room, he was knocked on the head with a stick—I did not see whether he had anything in his hand—I should say that man got as near to Harrington as I am to this gentleman. (About two yards).

Cross-examined. Q. That man who you call Painter, is Stanley, is it not? A. I think it is.

----Panzerini, a looking-glass maker, of 106, Hatton-garden,—Antelli, a looking-glass maker, of 48 and 49, Hatton-garden,—Charles Gaily, a looking-glass maker,—Cammille, a barometer-maker and looking-glass

silverer, and Rotheroni, a looking-glass manufacturer, gave the prisoner a good character.



OLD COURT.—Monday, January 30th, 1865.

Before Mr. Recorder.

30th January 1865
Reference Numbert18650130-219
VerdictGuilty > lesser offence
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

Related Material

219. JOHN DRING (52), was indicted for feloniously breaking and entering the warehouse of Edward McMorland, and stealing 196 shawls, his property. Second Count, feloniously receiving the same.

MR. F. H. LEWIS conducted the Prosecution, and MR. THOMPSON the Defence.

WILLIAM GARNHAM . I am a draper of 2, Pimlico-walk, Hoxton—on 5th September last, the prisoner came to me—he said he believed I was a buyer of shawls, and he had been recommended to me by Mr. Wilson of Barbican, and could I buy them—I asked how many he had—he said he had 200—I asked him what price he wanted for them—he said he would take 5s. 6d. a piece for them—I said they would not do for me at that price, and I offered him is at first—I afterwards agreed to give him is 3d.—he was to bring them in the next day—he did so, and when counted there were 196—I bought them at 4s. 3d. a-piece; they came to 41l. 13s.—I asked him for a receipt—he asked me for a bit of paper, he said he had not a bill-head with him—I gave him a bit of note-paper, and he made out this receipt—(Read: "Bought of Mr. F. Palmer, 196 shawls at is. 3d., 41l. 13s., signed, Frederick Palmer.")—I sold some of them afterwards to Messrs. Woof and Farish, drapers, of Shoreditch, 193, I think, at 5s. 9d. each—in the end I was given into custody—I undertook to find the man, and found the prisoner—we were a fortnight about finding him.

Cross-examined. Q. Do you keep a shop? A. Yes; I have kept it six years, continuously—I had never seen the prisoner before 5th September—I know Mr. Wilson of Barbican—he is a draper and milliner—I travel round town and serve him with goods—the prisoner brought samples on 5th September—I can't swear how many—I know he said there was one of each sort, and there were different coloured borders—I can't say exactly how many different sorts there were—the interview on 5th September lasted about a quarter of an hour; it took place in my shop—I agreed as to the price that day—I keep a young man to look after my pony and go out with me—I keep none to serve in the shop; my wife serves in the shop—I did not want the shawls to sell in my own shop—when the prisoner brought the shawls there was another person with him—I dare say the interview that day lasted three-quarters of an hour—I gave that man a penny to go and buy the receipt stamp—I had never seen that man before—I never went to the New Cut about this—I never went out of my shop till I first saw the goods—I never went with Wilson over the water about these shawls—I never saw Wilson at all about these shawls, not till three days after I had bought them; I then told him I was much obliged to him for sending the party to me with the shawls, and I had bought them—they laid on my counter for two days—I have a friend a traveller, who travels round town, and he took them to all the City houses to try to sell them for me—I sold them "to a person in Shoreditch for 5s. 9d. each—I have got a larger profit for things than that—I did not decidedly understand the goods; I am not a shawl

buyer—I buy anything—I have been in my shop six years, and out of that six years sixteen months as a draper—I had no knowledge of the drapery trade before I went into that shop—I never had any trouble about any transaction of this sort before—I was never a witness before—I know Robert Anderson—I buy anything in my line—I generally buy them in the City, or else I go about looking after job lots—sometimes I have them brought to my place, but I thoroughly know who I buy them of it was Anderson who came with the prisoner when he brought the goods; that was the man I gave the penny to for the receipt-stamp—I had never seen Anderson before—I afterwards bought a quantity more shawls of Anderson; that was on 15th September—I bought ninety-three of him then—I gave 2s. 10d. each for them—I have not got the receipt he gave me; I had a trouble to find this one—when the police came to my place my receipts and invoices were all turned over and hauled about—I have never seen Anderson since 15th September—I have been about to find him and made all the inquiries I could—they were both present when I paid the 41l.—I won't swear who took the money; I put the money down and saw the receipt signed—it was signed by the prisoner and given to me—he wrote it all out—not all at the same time; there was an interval of about seven minutes between the writing out of the invoice and the putting of the stamp on—the stamp was put on wet and was signed wet—there was only one inkstand on the counter—I believe it was written with the same pen; there were two pens—I won't swear that he wrote it with the same pen, because the pen was dropped—I went to the prisoner's house in Oxford-terrace, Clapham-road with the officers and another person, who I believe calls himself the lawyer's clerk; I never saw him before—I did not go over to the New Cut, nor did I see any of those shawls there—the shawls were brought in a cart—there was a boy besides Anderson—Anderson and the boy brought the things into my shop; the prisoner stood inside—to the best of my belief the prisoner took the money—he was acting as the master and the other seemed to be acting as man.

CHARLOTTE GARNHAM . I am the wife of the last witness—I recollect the sale of the shawls—I went up-stairs and brought down the money—I brought down 40l. odd—I can't exactly say how much more—the prisoner took up the money—he gave the name of Palmer—the prisoner called on several occasions afterwards—Mr. Garnham was not then at home.

Cross-examined. Q. Were you not in the parlour? A. I was some part of the time; not the whole time—my husband went out to look at the shawls—he was away about twenty minutes—that was on the first occasion—I believe they went to 88, Murray-street—I only know by what they said—the prisoner brought the samples into the shop on the 5th and on the 6th my husband went to Murray-street to look at the lot—I know that from what they said—the shawls were brought in twenty minutes afterwards—I was in the shop, all the time I think, until the money was paid—I then went into the parlour—I was in and out—I saw the money paid and the receipt signed.

GEORGE LEGG . I went with Hann and Garnham to 45, Oxford-terrace, Clapham-road—I there saw the prisoner—I addressed him by the name of Palmer—he said, "My name is not Palmer"—I said, "I know that, your name is Dring"—I told him that I was a police-officer, and that I had come about some shawls that he had sold to Garnham on 6th September—he said he had never sold him any, and never had any in his possession—I then said to Garnham, "Is that the man that sold you the shawls?"—he said, "Yes"—at that time I let Hann, another officer, in at the front door, who put

some questions to him which I did not hear—I searched the place and took the prisoner to the station—next day in going to the police-court in a cab, with the shawls, the prisoner said he never stole those shawls, but he knew them that did—he said he did not carry the shawls into Gornham's shop; the other man did.

Cross-examined. Q. What time of day was it that you went to Oxford-terrace? A. I went there between 7 and 8 o'clock—I saw a man acting as his servant, bring a horse and chaise to the door, and the prisoner and another man go away—I waited there till he returned in the afternoon—I do not know Anderson—I have been in search of him—the prisoner never said to me, "Why don't you take Anderson into custody, he was the man who went by the name of Palmer?"—I did not hear what he said to Hana—there was only the prisoner and me inside the cab—Hann was outside—I searched the Oxford-terrace house—I did not find anything at all relating to this burglary—that was on the 14th December—I found a quantity of bills there like this (produced)—a lawyer's clerk went with me, at least he came there—I had been in communication with him a day or two or it might be two or three days.

MR. LEWIS. Q. From what you know of the prisoner, was he a dealer in lubricating machines? A. I believe not.

JAMES HANN . I accompanied Legg to 45, Oxford-terrace—I remained outside, and was afterwards admitted—after Legg had put some questions to the prisoner, I placed Garnham in front of him, and asked the prisoner if he knew that man—he said, "No, I do not"—I then took Garnham in front of the window, and took his hat off and said, "Now do you know the man?"—he said, "No; I do not"—I said, "Am I to take your answer that you never Bold this man any shawls, and that you know nothing about them"—he said, "Yes; I do not"—I then asked him how long he had left Murray-street—he said he never lived at Murray-street—he was then taken into custody.

Cross-examined. Q. The first time you mentioned Murray-street, I believe you gave no particular locality? A. Yes, I did; I said Murray-street, Hoxton—Garnham had been taken into custody, and was out on bail at that time—Legg told the prisoner that he was come respecting some shawls that he had sold to Garnham—it was mentioned where Garnham lived, No. 2, Pimlico-walk, Hoxton; I think I named it myself; I know it was mentioned—this took place in the kitchen—it was rather dark, but quite light enough to recognize any one.

SARAH TERRY . I am the wife of Robert Terry, a solicitor's clerk, 88, Murray-street, New North-road—the prisoner came to lodge at my house on 25th August last—he stayed till 21st September—he took the front parlour in the name of Palmer, at 4s. a week—he brought a woman with him, and several others; everybody slept in the same room, women and men too—mine is a lodging-house—the prisoner occupied that room, and other people with him—my husband gave him notice to leave.

Cross-examined. Q. Who let the room to him? A. I let the room to him—there was another man with him at that time; the other man gave no name at all then—he afterwards gave my husband the name of Dring—I was not present then—I could not tell you how many men and women came; from two to three slept there—ray husband is clerk to Reighley and Gitching, of 7, Ironmonger-lane; he has been there over seven years—the woman supposed to be the prisoner's wife paid me the rent; a tall woman—there were severs other women in and out—the prisoner spoke of her as his wife.

MR. LEWIS. Q. By what name did you address the prisoner? A. Mr. Palmer, and be answered me by that name.

THOMAS ADDINGHAM . I reside at Gretton-place, Victoria-park, and am clerk to Mr. Brntton, Guildhall-chambers, Basinghall-street, an attorney—I have known the prisoner about eight or ten years, I should think—I have known him by several names, Dring, Palmer, and various other names; they take one another's names—I am acquainted with his handwriting—I should say this receipt is all in the prisoner's handwriting, but written at different times; the body at one time, and the signature "Frederick Palmer" at another.

Cross-examined. Q. I believe you have had a great many masters during your time, have you not? A. Not more than three or four during the whole of my life—I have sometimes been engaged in prosecutions' at this Court and others—I might have had my expenses disallowed—I have been in Whitecross-street for debt—Hann, the detective, first spoke to me about this; that was the day before the prisoner was taken—he asked me if I knew a man named Dring—I have never gone by any other name—I have never gone by the name of Spencer—I was in a Mr. Spencer's employment, in Coleman-street—I have never been a witness before—I never spoke to Hann about this case before that morning—he asked me if I knew the man, and if I knew where he was—I said, "No, but I could soon find out, "and I did—I was told by one of his own lot.

MR. LEWIS. Q. Are you concerned in this prosecution? A. No.

WILLIAM WOOF . I am a draper, in partnership with Mr. Farish, in Shoreditch—I bought 193 shawls of Mr. Garnham, at 5s. 9d. each, which came to 55l. 9s. 9d. and most of these (produced) are the shawls I bought—I could not swear to all of them—I afterwards bought 89 more shawls of him—I sold some of the 193 to Mr. Robert Farish; I could not tell how many—I sold him a lot of shawls besides these—some of the 193 were sold to him—I bought the 193 shawls independently of any other stock from Mr. I Garnham, and gave him 5s. 9d. each for each of the shawls.

Cross-examined. Q. How many of the 193 have you got there? A. I don't know how many; the police took 104 from my shop on 2d December that 104 did not include any of the 89; the difference between the 104 and 193 I had sold to Mr. Farish and other customers—I consider I gave a fair price for those shawls—I have been in the trade twenty-two years—they are a class of goods that would pass under the name of "Clearance of summer goods."

MR. LEWIS. Q. You know now, do you not, that these shawls cost 24s. each? A. I have heard so.

COURT. Q. Would that be a fair selling price for them retail? A. No—I sold them for 6s. 11d., those I gave 5s. 9d. for.

MR. LEWIS. Q. Would you consider 24s. cost price; a fair price daring the season for them? A. I don't know; I should think not—I should think there is no real value for articles of that kind.

EDWARD PASCALL . I am buyer in the shawl-department of Messrs, M'Morland and Co., of St. Paul's-churchyard—I have examined the shawls that are produced; they are the property of M'Morland and Co.—I ordered them myself—I saw them safe on the date of the burglary—the bulk of them were made to my order—24s. was the cost price of a great portion of these shawls—some of them are Llama trimmed with silk borders, some all silk, and some silk and wool, with work on them.

Cross-examined. Q. When did you purchase them? A. Part of them

were purchased about a year previously, the greater portion—they were not all bought of the same manufacturer—I saw them on 21st June, because we were taking stock of them—they were all prepared for stock-taking, all put into boxes and marked, and the following morning they were all gone, and in disorder—M'Morland's is not a very large concern—I have the supervision of the stock—I also make sales to retail houses—I was personally engaged on that day in taking stock—the greater bulk of the shawls were purchased a year previously—the other part were purchased during the spring season—I don't require the invoices to tell the prices, my memory is sufficient without that—I carry in my head the price of everything I look at; there are some tickets on these shawls now which were placed on them the day I took stock of them, and I can swear to them as in the writing of one of the young men, named French—I have a corresponding mark in my pocket—all of them were not marked.

WILLIAM WILKINS (City-policeman, 313). I was on duty in St. Paul's—churchyard on the morning of 22d June—at ten minutes after 6 I saw Messrs. M'Morland's door on the jar; the bar and padlock had been broken off, and the inside of the door cut—I pushed the door open and went in—I found no one on the premises—on searching I found these two small crow-bars, and this knife and string, which is used for the purpose of inserting this string between the sash of the window; the string gets hold of the fastening, and the catch is pulled back, and then the window can be opened.

GUILTY on the 2d Count.

He also PLEADED GUILTY to having been before convicted at Westminster in April, 1852, sentence ten years' penal servitude.**— Ten Years' Penal Servitude.

30th January 1865
Reference Numbert18650130-220
VerdictGuilty > unknown

Related Material

220. CHARLES HANDS (19) , Stealing 2 boxes and 40lbs. weight of tea, the property of Thomas White.

THOMAS WHITE . I am a wholesale tea-dealer, in Railway-place, Fenchurch-street—I have a partner—the two chests of tea (produced) are my property—they were delivered from our warehouse on 26th January, and put into a cart to go to Epping.

DAVID THOMAS HIGGINS . I am carman to Messrs. Tatham, of Gould-square, carriers—on the morning of 26th January I took up twelve packages from Mr. White's, of Railway-place—I took them to my master's, in Gould-square—when I got home I missed two boxes; I had taken those two up from Mr. White's—I did not see them again till they were at the police-station—these are the chests.

CHARLES CRANE . I am carman to Messrs. Tindal a Jacobson—on 26th January I saw the last witness driving a cart in Mark-lane, and saw two persons following the cart; the prisoner was one of them—my suspicion were aroused—I went with my van into the yard in Billiter-street, remained there about ten minutes, and when I came out I saw the prisoner coming along with these two chests on his back—I followed him a little way, stopped him, and asked him where he was going with them—he could not give me any answer—the other one then came up, but when I called for assistance he ran away—the prisoner stated that the man was giving him sixpence to carry them to Houndsditch—I gave him into custody.

Prisoner's Defence. I was going along Fenchurch-street, and a man stopped me and asked me if I would carry these down to the Minories, Houndsditch. He said he would give me 6d. when I got there, and then take them of me. I said I would. This man stopped me. The man went to the other side of the road, and when this man stopped me he crossed the

road, and then ran away. I did not know where the tea came from. I am innocent of it. I get my living in the City, by minding things, and carrying things for gentlemen.

GUILTY . **—George Ager proved that the prisoner had been five times in Holloway Prison in the name of Clarks and Saville.— Confined Eighteen Months.

30th January 1865
Reference Numbert18650130-221
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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221. THOMAS GEORGE IRONS (19) , Stealing a watch, Value 2l., the property of John Collins, from his person.

JOHN COLLINS , I am a beershop-keeper, of 4, Portpool-lane—on 12th January, about 3 in the afternoon, I was in Long-lane—I stopped to look at a crowd—I did not see the prisoner till I caught him taking my watch out of my pocket; as I was coming out of the crowd he put his hand in my pocket and took my watch—I am sure he is the person—I caught hold of him by the collar, and while I was saving the chain he took the watch from the chain—I saw him do that—he up with his fist as if to hit me—I turned round to call a young man, who was with me, and when he came up the watch was gone—I called a constable, and gave the prisoner into custody.

MICHAEL DALEY . I am a tailor—I was with the prosecutor—I saw the prisoner stand behind the prosecutor, and as he was turning out from the crowd he put his hand into his waistcoat-pocket and drew out his watch—I immediately made a rush towards him, but before I could lay my hand upon him he up with his hand to strike Collins—I said, "It is bad enough to take the watch"—he said, "It is the man that has gone in there has got the watch"—I said, "Nevertheless, you are the party that took it, and I will not let my hands off you till I give you in charge to a policeman."

Prisoner. They were both in liquor. Witness, Not a bit of it.

DANIEL M KEOGH (City-policeman, 220). The prisoner was given into my custody by the witnesses—they were both sober.

GUILTY .*— Confined Twelve Months.

30th January 1865
Reference Numbert18650130-222
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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222. BENJAMIN PALMER (20) , Robbery with others on Matthew Carlin, and stealing 1 coat, 1 handkerchief, and 7s. in money, his property.

MR. KEMP conducted the Prosecution.

MATTHEW CARLIN . I live at East Ham—on the evening of 26th December, about 5 o'clock, I was in Spitalfields—I saw the prisoner there—I had seen him several times before—I asked if he knew a friend of mine of the name of James Walters—he said he did perfectly well, and if I would go with him he would show me where ho lived—we went together to a public-house—we did not stay there above six or seven minutes—we had a pint of ale, and left the public-house together—the prisoner was then joined by two men and a woman—they turned back with the prisoner and me, and when we got into the middle of Wood-street, the prisoner assisted the others to knock me down—they pulled my handkerchief and jacket off, and turned my pocket out, and took out three half-crowns and 2 1/2 d.—I have not seen them since—I have no doubt at all about the prisoner being the man—I went to the police-station the same night—I afterwards saw the prisoner sitting outside a public-house—I don't know the name of it—I went over and spoke to him, and the policeman was alongside of me—I said, "Do you recollect seeing me last night?"—he directly jumped up and thought to make his escape, but I caught hold of him, and he was taken into custody.

Prisoner. Q. Did not you first pass by me and then come back again? A. No—I did go by, but I did not see you then—when I came back, I saw you sitting on the window-cill—I have seen you several times; the first

time might be four years ago, or more—I had had a little drop to drink, but knew perfectly well what I was about—it was Boxing-night.

COURT. Q. Where had you been? A. Not anywhere—I had come straight up the road—I had had a share of two pots of beer and a pint besides, no spirits—I was not at all tipsy—(looking at his deposition)—this is my signature—I might say I was not quite sober.

JOHN LAW (Policeman, H 205). On 27th December, the prosecutor gave me a* description of a man by whom he had been robbed—I went into Wentworth-street, and saw some persons standing outside a public-house—the prisoner was among them—I told the prosecutor to go over, and if the man was among them to take hold of him—he went over, and directly took hold of the prisoner, and said, "This is the man"—I crossed the road, and took him—I told him the charge—he said, "I was not out of my father's house yesterday from about 2 in the afternoon till about 11 or half-past 11 at night."

Prisoner's Defence. I am as innocent as a child—I have witnesses to prove it.

SARAH NEWTON . I am single, and live at 28, George-yard—I only know the prisoner by seeing him on Boxing-day, in Mrs. Campbell's house—there were several of the neighbours there; Mr. and Mrs. Campbell, the two daughters, and I and the prisoner—we went in there about 2 and came out about 11 at night—they were singing and drinking, and enjoying themselves round the fire—I am sure the prisoner was there all that time—I was there all the time, except when Elizabeth Campbell and I went out for beer—the first beer we went out for was at half-past 2—that would not take us above two or three minutes—we went out again about 3 or half-past—every time we came back the prisoner was still there, sitting by the side of Mrs. Campbell.

Cross-examined by MR. KEMP. Q. What day of the week was this? A. It was Boxing-day, Monday, I think; I won't be certain—Mr. and Mrs. Baggs were there—I think there were two men and their wives, and two women; seven or eight altogether—I was examined at the Police-court, I think the day after—I am no relation of the prisoner's—I had not known him before; not to have anything to say to him, only just seeing him—I don't live at that house; I have my victuals there, but don't sleep there—the prisoner lives opposite Mrs. Campbell's—I am twenty-one years of age—Mrs. Campbell is not here; she is ill in bed—Mrs. Baggs is not here; they were not able to come—the prisoner's father and mother were not there; his intended father-in-law, Mr. Campbell, was; the prisoner is courting Miss Campbell.

ELIZABETH CAMPBELL . I was examined before the Magistrate—the prisoner is a friend of mine—he was at my mother's on Boxing-day—he came at 2 o'clock, and stayed till about 11, or a little after—I was there the whole time—I went out along with Sarah Newton for the beer; it was only to the bottom of the yard—it did not take more than two or three moments—the prisoner was there when we returned, sitting in the same place.

Cross-examined. Q. How many times did you go out for beer? A. I could not tell you, it was so many—I drank some as well as the rest—there was Mr. and Mrs. Baggs, Mrs. Gibbons, Mrs. Porter, me, and my mother and father, and Sarah Newton—the prisoner was there all the time—he was sitting by the side of my mother.


30th January 1865
Reference Numbert18650130-223
VerdictsGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentencesImprisonment > penal servitude; Imprisonment > penal servitude

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223. GEORGE GRANT (28), and JOSEPH NORTHGATE (24), PLEADED GUILTY to a Burglary on the dwelling-house of William Peter Bodkin, on the night of 15th January, at St. Pancras, and stealing 2 desks, 1 box, 5 coats, 2 hats, 1 order for the payment of 5l., and 8l. 2s. in money, his property; also, for assaulting Robert Roffery and David Clark, police-constables, in the execution of their duty. Grant having been before convicted of felony.—GRANT— Ten Years' Penal Servitude. —NORTHGATE— Seven Years' Penal Servitude.—There was another indictment against the prisoners for housebreaking.

30th January 1865
Reference Numbert18650130-224
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude; Imprisonment

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224. WILLIAM HALL (22), and JAMES HURST (23) , to stealing 8 rings, 14 mugs, and 1 bracelet, the property of William Richard Sutton, the master of Hurst.—HALL**— Five Years' Penal Servitude. —HURST— Confined Nine Months. [Pleaded Guilty: See original trial image.]

30th January 1865
Reference Numbert18650130-225
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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225. CLEMENT BOUTALT (20) , to embezzling the sums of 13l. 18s., 28l. 17s., and 21l. 7s., the moneys of Hughes Michael Cheelley and others, his masters.— Confined Twelve Months. [Pleaded Guilty: See original trial image.]

30th January 1865
Reference Numbert18650130-226
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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226. GEORGE JONES (20) , to stealing 1 box and 86lbs. weight of tea, the property of the Great Northern Railway Company.—** Five Years' Penal Servitude. [Pleaded Guilty: See original trial image.]

30th January 1865
Reference Numbert18650130-227
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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227. DANIEL FLYNN (24) , to assaulting Abel Rogers Peters, a constable, in the execution of his duty, and two other persons.— Confined Twelve Months. [Pleaded Guilty: See original trial image.]

30th January 1865
Reference Numbert18650130-228
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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228. ROBERT GOODWIN TRYON (26) , to stealing 3 post-letters, containing bills of exchange, whilst employed in the Post-office.— Five Years' Penal Servitude : and [Pleaded Guilty: See original trial image.]

30th January 1865
Reference Numbert18650130-229
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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229. JOHN DONELLY (22) , to stealing 6 bottles of port wine, the property of Sarah Sadler.— Confined Nine Months. [Pleaded Guilty: See original trial image.]

NEW COURT.—Monday, January 30th, 1865.

Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

30th January 1865
Reference Numbert18650130-230
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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230. GEORGE STEVENS (38) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.

MESSRS. COLERIGDE and GOUGH conducted the Prosecution.

ELIZABETH WHITTLESEY . I keep a beer-shop—on Friday, 13th January, about half-past 10 o'clock, the prisoner came for a glass of sixpenny ale, which came to 1 1/2 d.—he gave me a florin, and I gave him the change—put the florin by itself on the top of a cigar-box—he drank the beer, and left—I then found that the florin was bad, and laid it on some glasses on a shelf—next evening he came again for a glass of ale—I served him, and recognised him as soon as he came in—he offered me this bad shilling (produced)—I bit it, and walked round and closed the door—I told him he had given me a bad shilling, and he had given me a bad florin the night previous, and I should lock him up—he said that he did not give me the florin; he was not in London that night—I gave him in charge, with the shilling and florin—he then paid me one penny for the ale.

Prisoner. Q. What reason had you to go to the till with the shilling I gave you before you went round to the door? A. I did not open the till at all—I did not go to three men who were in the tap-room; but one of them said, "Let the man go."

MR. COLERIDGE. Q. How many men were in the shop? A. They were in the tap-room at the back.

WILLIAM RAWLINSON . I was in the beer-shop, and saw the prisoner come in—he asked for a glass of ale—I did not see him pay for it, but I am certain he is the person.

Prisoner. Why? A. I remember your features.

EDWARD NEWELL (Policeman, H 46). On 14th January, the prisoner was given into my custody, with these coins—I searched him, and found a halfpenny in his pocket.

Prisoner. Q. Had not I a chance of getting away if I was guilty? A. No, I should not have let you.

WILLIAM WEUSTER . I am inspector of coin to Her Majesty's Mint—this florin and shilling are bad.

Prisoner's Defence. I was not aware that the shilling was bad, and did not know that I had another halfpenny. She said that I bad given her a florin the night before.

GUILTY .—He was further charged with a previous conviction of a like offence.

RICHARD KEMP . I am warder of Wandsworth House of Correction—I produce a certificate (Read: George Lepine convicted at this Court of uttering counterfeit coin; Confined One Year .)—I was present—the prisoner is the man—I saw him every dayduring his imprisonment.

GUILTY.**— Five Years' Penal Servitude.

30th January 1865
Reference Numbert18650130-231
VerdictNot Guilty > directed

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231. ANN RITCHIE (18) and MARGARET LINGWOOD (17) , Unlawfully uttering a medal resembling a sovereign, but being of less value, with intent to defraud. Second Count, charging it as a piece of mixed metal resembling a sovereign in size; Third Count, a coin resembling a sovereign in size, but being of less value.

MESSRS. COLERIDGE and GOUGH conducted the Prosecution.

WILLIAM BURN . I am landlord of the Woodman, White-street, Bethnal-green—on 12th January, about half-past 10 at night, the prisoner Ritchie came in—she placed this coin on the counter, head upwards, and said, "If you please, can you give me change"—I went to the till to get it, but found it was rather light—I said, "What is this?"—she said, "A sovereign"—I put my glasses on to look at it, and said, "It is not a sovereign; it is not worth twopence"—I asked her where she got it—she said, "A young man outside gave it to me to get change"—I said, "You had better fetch him in and let us see who he is"—she said, "Oh, you must give it me back, and let me show it to him"—I said, "No, I shall not give it you back at all"—she went out, and returned in about two minutes with Lingwood—she said, "I have come for my sovereign; you are not going to keep it;" and Lingwood said, "You had better give it up, or I will soon fetch some one who will knock it out of you"—I said, "You shall not go till I know who you are, and where you come from"—Ritchie said, "Come on"—Lingwood said, "I am not going.; I should like to go without my sovereign, "meaning that she should not like—I sent for a policeman; and as I followed the prisouers, I met my potman with a policeman, and gave them in charge with the medal—we went back, and just as we got to my door, Lingwood moved her hands, and I heard something jink on the pavement—I saw the potman stoop and pick up another piece and hand it to the policeman.

WILLIAM SWALLOW (Policeman, H 170). On 12th January, Mr. Burn gave the prisoners into my custody, with this medal—I saw Lingwood moving—I put my hand to her pocket—she had some fish and bread there, and I could not get my hand in—I saw her move her hand, and heard something drop—I afterwards saw this medal on the pavement—the potman picked it up and gave it to me—they said that they received it of a woman named Ford, in part payment of wages—I asked where Mrs. Ford lived—she said, "I do not know, she has moved away; I met her on Tuesday"—Ritchie said that they received a sovereign each—I searched them, and found a purse, a sixpence, and threepence in copper on Lingwood; and this sugar-crusher and a small bottle on Ritchie.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . These are two brass medals; they represent on one side the head of the Queen—they are not the same colour as a sovereign, but quite near enough to deceive—they are the same size as a sovereign.

COURT. Q. Is the obverse the head of the Queen? A. Yes; the reverse is an equestrian figure of the King of Hanover riding over what appears to be an hydra—it has several heads, and a dragon-shaped tail—it is like a dragon, except that there are many heads—above it is, "To Hanover"—the edges are like a sovereign, and the legend on the obverse is, "H.M.G.M. Queen Victoria"—the date is in the ordinary place, but on the reverse side; on all the Queen's current sovereigns, it is on the obverse—the reverse does Dot resemble a sovereign, because the composition is different altogether; the King is riding with a crown on his head, which is quite different from St. George—this is neither St. George or a dragon—the only thing like a sovereign is the Queen's bead and a knerled edge but there is a considerable likeness in colour—on the coins of George IV., 1821, the date is on the reverse side, and in George III. you will find it under the head again.

Ritchie's Defence. I did not know it was bad.

Lingwood's Defence I am innocent.

The Jury found that the coin resembled a sovereign in me and colour, but not in figure THE COURT directed a verdict of


30th January 1865
Reference Numbert18650130-232
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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232. SAMUEL VENABLES (41), was indicted for embezzlement.

MR. LE BRETON conducted the Prosecution, and MR. LEWIS the Defence.

THOMAS PACKER . I live at Child's-hill, Hendon, and am a builder—I purchased 700 slates of the prisoner at the Llangollen Company's wharf, South-wharf, Paddington—I paid him 3l. 18s. 11d. for them before they were sent home—he gave me this receipt, signed Samuel Venables (produced).

ALLINGTON COOKE . I am an accountant and book-keeper, and live at Stratford—I have been employed by the Llangollen Slate Company, to go through their accounts—I produce the prisoner's cash-book; I have seen him write, and am well acquainted with his writing—I find in it no entry of 3l. 18s. 11d., or of any money received of Mr. Packer about 20th or 21st July—here are entries in the prisoner's writing for about a year before, and for some time after—the prisoner was, to my knowledge, acting as servant to the Company at that wharf—I find no entry of 5l. 1s., or any other sum, on 11th August, 1863, in the name of Richard Sharpe—there is no such sum or name—I do not find the name of Huntley King, 2l., in August—this is the cash-book of the Company.

Cross-examined. Q. Have you been the accountant to the Company? A. Yes; employed specially on this matter—I know nothing of the Company, except what I have been told.

PAUL NINNIS . I am cashier and manager for John Taylor and Sons, mining engineers and managers for the Llangollen Slate Mining Company—I know the prisoner; he was employed by the Company, and had 200l. a-year—he was appointed by the Managers, not by the Directors—they, appoint all the servants of the Company.

Cross-examined. Q. Are not the appointments reduced to writing? A. No; it is not the practice—the Managers, John Taylor and Sons, appoint all the servants of the Company—they appointed the prisoner, and paid his salary—it was his duty to bring all money he received to the central office, and pay it in, and when he wanted money he came to me—he never paid me this 3l. 18s. 11d., 5l. 1s., or 2l.—he was paid out of the funds of the Company—the terms were arranged with the Managers—I know that the terms were 200l. a-year of my own personal knowledge, and also from the prisoner himself.

MR. LE BRETON Q. Are the Managers, John and Richard Taylor? A.

Yes; they have the privilege of appointing all the officers of the Company—the prisoner has brought me money on several occasions as their servant—the salary was paid to the prisoner, and charged to the Company.

WILLIAM VERNON VENABLES . I am secretary to the Llangollen Slate Mining Company Limited—the Managers are John Taylor and Sons; they appoint the servants; they appointed the prisoner—his salary was 150l. a-year, and an allowance for a country residence—I was not present when he was engaged—he brought me money on account of the Company on various occasions—I did not receive from him in July, 1863, 3l. 18s. 11d., nor 5l. 1s. on 11th August, nor 2l. from Mr. King in August.

Cross-examined. Q. Where ought he to have paid it to you? A. At the head office, 6, King's-place, Southwark-bridge—he might also have paid it to the book-keeper, and there are clerks—they have not each authority to receive the money—besides paying money to me, he paid money weekly into Barnett's Bank—his instructions were to pay money over as soon as possible after the receipt—that is not within my personal knowledge—the accounts of the Company were audited once a year, but the last time was in 1862—from 1862 to Christmas, 1864, there has been no auditing—auditors have been appointed; they were William Peltarger Boyle and William Henderson.

MR. LE BRETON. Q. Were you authorized to receive money? A. Yes, and so was Mr. Ninnis.

JOHN TAYLOR . I am a mining engineer and Manager; my offices are at Queen-street, Southwark—my firm are Managers of the Llangollen Slate Company under a deed; my father and myself have always been managing partners—we appointed the prisoner to act for us at this wharf, at a salary of 120l., which was afterwards raised to 180l. or 200l.; I forget which, with an allowance for his rent, and afterwards a second house, which was taken for him at Hanwell for the health of his family—Mr. Ninnis has been our cashier forty years, and Mr. Venables many years, and it was at his instigation that I employed his brother—he came from Liverpool with a good character—he was employed as clerk, and I think I may call it Manager of the wharf at Paddington—he had the management of the business there—his business was to keep an accurate account; to hand over to our office all moneys he received; to account for it on sheets, of which he has a copy, and his brother, the Secretary, had the control—it was his duty to enter all receipts in the cash-book—we represent the Company for the purpose of engaging clerks; that is a portion of our duty as stated in the deed—I am a partner in the Company—the prisoner was appointed several years ago.

Cross-examined. Q. Did he keep a day-book and ledger? A. Yes, but he has always been allowed a clerk—it was not the clerk's business to write in the cash-book—there is not a very largo business transacted in London, but quite large enough to cause us to give him the assistance of a clerk, that some one might be present when he was absent.

MR. LE BRETON. Do you know the prisoner's writing? A. Well, this is his cash-book (produced); these are his entries in July and August, 1863—I see do writing but his.

RICHARD SHARP . I bought some goods of the Llangollen Slate and Slab Company, Paddington, to the amount of 5l. 1s.—I had paid a deposit of 1l. to the head foreman, Williams, which made it 6l. 1s.—I paid it on the date of this invoice. (Produced, dated 11th August, 1863.)

WILLIAM WILLIAMS . I am foreman to the Slate and Slab Company—Mr. Sharp handed me 5l. 1s.—it is not my business to receive money for the

Company, so I handed it to the prisoner the same evening—I procured this receipt at the office.

Cross-examined. Q. When was your attention first drawn to it? A. Mr. Cooke, the accountant, spoke to me last March or April—I mean that I recollect the fact of my paying the money—I did not take a receipt to discharge myself.

COURT. Q. Was it at his own house you gave him the money? A. Yes, adjoining the office—I paid him in the evening, after the clerks left.

GEORGE HUNTLEY KING . I am a naturalist, I purchased some goods of the Llangollen Slate Company, and paid 2l. on account to the prisoner—this receipt (produced) is signed "S. V." on the stamp in the prisoner's handwriting—the goods were for slate aquariums.

Cross-examined. Q. Is not the prisoner also a coal-merchant? A. I do not know—I had two tons of coals of him—I was not indebted to him at that time.


30th January 1865
Reference Numbert18650130-233
VerdictNot Guilty > no evidence

Related Material

233. SAMUEL VENABLES , was again indicted for embezzling 18l. 10s., 14l. 12s., and 11l., of his said masters.

MR. LE BRETON offered no evidence.


The following prisoners PLEADED GUILTY to feloniously uttering counterfeit coin:—

30th January 1865
Reference Numbert18650130-234
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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234. GEORGE POULTON** (30) .[Feloniously uttering counterfeit coin: See original trial image.] — Seven Years' Penal Servitude. [Pleaded Guilty: See original trial image.]

30th January 1865
Reference Numbert18650130-235
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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235. MARY ANN DRING** (48) .[Feloniously uttering counterfeit coin: See original trial image.]— Five Years* Penal Servitude. [Pleaded Guilty: See original trial image.]

30th January 1865
Reference Numbert18650130-236
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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236. THOMAS SCOTT (55) , to unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.— Confined Eighteen Months. [Pleaded Guilty: See original trial image.]

30th January 1865
Reference Numbert18650130-237
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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237. MARY ANN COLLINS* (35) , to a like offence.— Confined Six Months. [Pleaded Guilty: See original trial image.]

30th January 1865
Reference Numbert18650130-238
VerdictsGuilty > pleaded guilty

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238. PAUL VANGLER (18) to stealing 1 coat, and 1 shawl, of William Summers; also 1 time-piece, of Henry James.— Confined Twelve Months ; and [Pleaded Guilty: See original trial image.]

30th January 1865
Reference Numbert18650130-239
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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239. SAMUEL WILKINSON (30) , to embezzling 5l. of Charles Henry Griffiths, his master.— Confined Six Months. [Pleaded Guilty: See original trial image.]

OLD COURT.—Tuesday, January 21st, 1865.

Before Mr. Recorder.

30th January 1865
Reference Numbert18650130-240
VerdictGuilty > with recommendation
SentenceNo Punishment > sentence respited

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240. CHARLES WHITE (49) , Stealing a warrant for the payment of 1l. 14s. 7d., the property of Her Majesty's Postmaster-General. Second Count, receiving the same.

MESSRS. METOALFE and PATTEDSON conducted the Prosecution, and MR. SLEIGH the Defence.

FANNY ABBOTT . I am an assistant in the Post-office at Notting-hill—money-orders are issued, and are payable there—on 10th January I issued an order payable at the office in King-street, Covent-garden, to Messrs. Barr and Sugden; sent by Miss Hodges—I forwarded a letter of advice of it to the Postmaster there.

CAROLINE CORDELIA HODGES . I reside at Lansdown-crescent, Kensingtonpark gardens—on 10th January I procured this money-order at the Post-office, Notting-hill—I enclosed it in a letter addressed to Messrs. Barr and Sugden, King-street, Covent-garden, and gave it to my servant to post.

CHARLOTTE TAYLOR . I am in the service of Miss Hodges—on 10th January I posted a letter for her, addressed to Messrs. Barr and Sugden, between 3 and 5 o'clock, at the pillar letter-box at the corner of Kensintonpark-gardens.

JONATHAN ROBERTS . I am an inspector of letter-carriers—a letter posted

at the Kensington-park-gardens' pillar-box, between 3 and 5 o'clock, would be delivered at Covent-garden about 8 in the evening—when taken from the pillar it would go to the Notting-hill sorting-office, and from there to the office in Vere-street, and then to the West Central-office in Southampton-street, Holborn—it ought to be delivered about 8 o'clock—the West Central-office is about 4 1/2 minutes from Red Lion-passage—I have walked it since.

PETER BARR . I am a partner in the firm of Barr and Sugden—on 4th January, Miss. Hodges was in my debt—I don't think the letter containing this money-order ever reached our place; there is no evidence of it—this is not my signature, or that of our firm, or of any one by our authority—I knew nothing about it till the Post-office authorities communicated with me—on 11th January, I was sent for to the Post-office kept by Mr. Daniel in King-street—I saw the prisoner there—I inquired where he got this order from—he said he got it in the way of business, from a person of the name of Dale—I went to change my coat, and when I came back he was gone.

JULIA WARREN . I am assistant to Mr. Daniel, who keeps the Post-office in King-street, Covent-garden—on 11th January the prisoner came there and presented this order for payment; it was signed as it is now—I asked the prisoner who sent it—he said it was given to him in payment for some gas-fittings which he had sold—I asked who sent it—he said, "Miss Hodges"—I sent for Mr. Barr—in the meantime Mr. Daniel came in and asked him bow he came possessed of that order—he then said that Mr. Dale gave it to him—Mr. Daniel asked him where Mr. Dale lived—he said in Holborn.

RICHARD DANIEL I keep the Post-office in King-street, Covent-garden—on 11th January I went into the office while the prisoner was there with the last witness—this order was handed to me—I asked the prisoner how he got it—he said he got it in the way of business from Mr. Dale, an optician, in Holborn, near Kent's Knife-cleaning Machine shop—I asked what sort of person Mr. Dale was, and he described him as a tall, thin, dark man—I asked him if he was any relation to Mr. Dale, of Cecil-street, an optician, whom I knew—he said he did not believe he was—I then sent for Mr. Barr—I did not know the signature of the firm of Barr and Sugden, but there was an understanding between Mr. Barr and myself that all his orders should be paid through the Union Bank, or be presented by himself—Mr. Barr came and said it was their order—the prisoner was then standing in the shop close by me—I did not question the prisoner further—I requested Mr. Barr to put on his hat and follow him to Mr. Dale's—Mr. Barr was so long about it that I said to the prisoner, "It is very strange to me that this order should be presented here; they are always paid through a banker unless Mr. Barr presents them himself"—upon that he walked out of the shop, saying, "You have got got my address, and there is an end of it"—he bad given his name and address, "Charles White, Red Lion-passage"—he left before Mr. Barr returned—he was standing outside the shop, and said, "I shall not wait any longer"—I sent some one to watch him—Smith came in while I was there; I think Smith was present when the prisoner mentioned Dale's name.

Cross-examined. Q. Was he not waiting some ten minutes after Mr. Barr had left? A. He waited some time; I don't know how long—I think he said, "I can wait no longer; you have got my name and address, if you want to see me further"—on Smith's coming in the prisoner said to him, "Mr. Smith, you know who I am"—Mr. Smith replied, "Yes, I have known you for several years as a very respectable man"—Smith and the prisoner went away together—Smith stood outside a great portion of the time.

WILLIAM PHILIP SMITH . I am an accountant, living at 11, Robert-street, Bedford-row—on the morning of 11th January, between 11 and 12 o'clock, I called on the prisoner on business—he asked where I was going—I said to Great Queen-street—he said he was going to King-street, Covent-garden, and would walk with me and talk on the way—he told me that he had got a Post-office order in his pocket—we walked to King-street—he went into Mr. Daniel's, the Post-office, and I saw him pass a paper to the female witness—I did not know what it was—they stood talking there—she had two papers in her hand; whether they were the advice and order I do not know—I stood leaning against the railings—I saw Mr. Barr going in and out—I had an appointment, and after waiting there seven or eight minutes I went in—White asked me if I knew him—I said, "Yes, for several years as a respectable man, a gas-fitter, in Red Lion-passage, "I did not know the number, but it was at the Square end of the passage—he came out, and Mr. Daniel with him, and stood there—I told him I could not wait, and White said, "I can't wait any longer; I have given you my name and address, and that is enough"—we went away walking along through the piazza—going along I asked him what was the meaning of it; did they mean to insinuate that it was a forged order—he said, "Something like it"—I asked him did he know from whom he got it—he said it was in the way of business—I said, "Was it in lieu of a debt?"—he said "Yes"—I said, "Do you know who you had it from I"—he said, "Yes, a man named Dale, an optician, in Holborn—I said to him, "It is rather serious"—I think I said, "Good God! if you know who it is, go and get the man and bring him down and get it rectified"—we walked on to Great Queen-street, where I had an appointment, and I said, "If you can get the man I shall be here for about an hour; call on me, and I will go with you and see it put right"—he replied, "I may or may not"—he then left me, and I went to see the gentleman with whom I bad the appointment, and I was there all day on some accounts—I saw him again after I had been at Bow-street—he called at my house; that was on Thursday, the 12th—he said he had come to ask my advice what to do, and he told my wife that I knew nothing at all about it, no more than she did, that I merely went with him—I said I could not talk with him there, but if he would meet me I would speak to him and tell him what to do—I said in the room, "All I can advise you to do is to disclose the name of the person from whom you had it"—he said he would not tell the name—next morning, Friday, he sent for me to 13, Gloucester-street, Queen-square, Bloomsbury—I still pressed upon him, for his own sake, and for his family's, to disclose the name of the person from whom he bad it—he still seemed "disinclined to do it—I pressed him, but he declined doing it.

Cross-examined. Q. I believe you told Mr. Daniel that you had known the prisoner several years? A. Yes; that is the fact; I have known him about six years—I have known him well, as a respectable man; he has lived in the same house all that time—he is a gas fitter—I believe he has borne the character of an honest and respectable man—I always found him a strictly honourable man.

HENRY BINGHAM . I am a police-constable attached to the Post-office—on Thursday, 12th January, in consequence of information, I went to 7, Red Lion-passage—I saw the prisoner there standing at the door—I addressed him, "Mr. White"—he said "Yes"—I then told him I wanted to speak to him respecting a money-order that he had presented for payment at the King-street Post-office the previous day, at the same time I showed him the order now produced—he said, "Yes, I did present it"—I then told him I wished

him to tell me from whom he received it—he said he bad received it in the way of business, but he should not tell me from whom—I did not then know that he had said he received it from Mr. Dale—I told him he must go to the Post-office and see Mr. Peacock, perhaps he would tell him all about it—he at first refused to go, and wanted to see my warrant, but I afterwards prevailed upon him, and he went—on arriving at Mr. Peacock's office, the order was again produced, and he was asked where he got it from—he said that he had received it the morning previous, about a quarter-past 8, from a man who came into his shop and purchased some things, amounting to 2l. 16s. and that was in part payment; that the man purchased three gas-pillars, and three gas-burners, he did not know the man, he did not ask his name and address, he did not give any bill, nor enter it in any book, the man took the money-order from his breast coat-pocket outside, and the remainder he paid him in cash which he took from his trousers' pocket—this was said in answer to questions—he described the man as about thirty or forty year old, short and stout; that he wore a brown coat, and had dark brown whiskers—the prisoner was then allowed to go away—he did not tell me during that conversation, or any other, how he knew of the name of Hodges; I believe he was asked; I was there and heard the conversation—I don't think the name Hodges was asked him; he was told that it was posted at Kensington Park-gardens, and the time it was posted, and about the time it should have been delivered—I am not sure whether he was asked about the name of Hodges or not; I don't think the name was mentioned; he did not give any explanation about the name—I did not know of his having previously given the name of Dale until after he was allowed to go—in consequence of hearing of that and other matters, I afterwards on the same day obtained a warrant for his apprehension—Smith accompanied me to Bow-street—I also called at the prisoner's address, but he had not been home—I called twice the same day, and twice the next day, but could not see him, and I was watching the house and neighbourhood nearly the whole of the time, with another officer—he was subsequently found by another officer—I did not see him from the time he was allowed to go from the Post-office until then—he keeps a gas-fitting shop; I never saw any gas burning there or any light; the place is always in darkness—there is some stock—there are tools and such things in the shop.

WILLIAM HAWKES . I am a constable attached to the Post-office—on Thursday, 12th January, I went in search of the prisoner—on Saturday, 14th, from information I received, I went to Mr. Cooper's, 13, Gloucester-street, Queen-square; Mr. Cooper opened the door—I asked to see Mr. White, who was in the house—he told me to wait a bit—I followed him up into the back room, first floor, and there I saw the prisoner—I recognised him, having seen him once before—I told him there was a warrant out for his apprehension, charging him with uttering an order for 1l. 14s. 6d., he well knowing it to be a forgery—he said, "Very well, I am quite willing to go with you."

EDMUND DALE . I am a manufacturing optician, of No. 1, Smart's-buildings, Holborn; that is near Kent's knife cleaning place—I know the prisoner—I know nothing whatever about this order; I did not give it to the prisoner in the way of business—I never saw it, or heard of it, till the officer showed it to me—I did not see the prisoner at all on 10th January; he did not come to me—I do not live there, I live in the country—there is no other optician of my name living in Holborn.

Thomas Perry, smith and gas-fitter, Eagle-street, Red Lion-square; William Roach, knife-cleaning machine manufacturer, 40, Duke street, Lincoln's-inn-fields; and Frederick Goodman, metal-worker, Yorkshire Grey-yard, Red Lion-square, deposed to the prisoner's good character.

GUILTY on Second Count. Recommended to mercy by the Jury, on account of his good character.—Judgment Respited.

30th January 1865
Reference Numbert18650130-241
VerdictNot Guilty > fault

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241. ALFRED CURTIS (43), was indicted for wilful and corrupt perjury. MR. ORRIDGE conducted the Prosecution, MR. BEST the Defence,

In this case, it appearing that the alleged perjury occurred after the matter in question had been decided, the Court directed a verdict of


30th January 1865
Reference Numbert18650130-242
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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242. JOHN HEROD (22) , Stealing a watch, the property of William Dick, from his person.

WILLIAM DICK . I lost a watch on 18th January, on Tower-hill, about half-past 12 at noon—there was a crowd at the west end of Postern-row—I went across to see what it was—the crowd moved a little, and during that time my watch was taken—I looked round and saw the chain drop from the prisoner's hand—I accused him of having my watch—he said he had not got it, and asked me to search him—I saw that he had not got it; I supposed he had given it to a confederate—I went back and met the witness Nicholls—in consequence of what he said we went after the prisoner—he walked up Goodman's-yard, Minories; he got out of sight there and ran—we pursued him, and caught him at the Black Horse, in Limehouse-street, and I gave him into custody.

JOHN NICHOLLS . I was on Tower-hill on 18th January—I was standing on the right side of Mr. Dick, and saw the prisoner on his left, a little way in front—he was pushing very close to the prosecutor—a minute or two afterwards the prosecutor turned round and accused him of stealing his watch, and at the same moment the prisoner turned round, and I am almost positive passed the watch, for I saw his hand go down to another man—I did not see the watch—there was a person close enough to him to take it—he then made an offer to be searched—Mr. Dick searched him, and of course he had not got it—I went after the man that I believed had it, but could not catch him—I afterwards went with Mr. Dick to the Black Horse.

JURY. Q. Did you see the chain drop from his hand? A. No.

JOHN BATES (Policeman, H 99). The prisoner was given into my custody—he asked me to search him—I declined doing so till I got him to the station—I searched him there, and only found an old knife on him.

WILLIAM DICK (re-examined). I picked up the bit of chain that fell down, and put it in my pocket—I have not got it here—the rest of the chain was attached to my guard round my neck—I am sure I saw it drop from his hand.

GUILTY .— Confined Six Months.

30th January 1865
Reference Numbert18650130-243
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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243. FREDERICK WILLIAM LE POIDEVIN (38) , Embezzling and stealing the sums of 25l., 17l., 8s. 11d., and 14l. 9s. 9d., received as clerk and servant to William White and another.

MR. METCALFE conducted the Prosecution, and MR. GENT the Defence.

WILLIAM WHITE . I carry on business with Mr. Thomas Johnstone as electro-platers at Sheffield—in May, 1863, we established a branch business at London Wall, and placed the prisoner there to superintend it—there was an agreement in writing between us—this is it—(This was dated 4th May, 1863, by which the prisoner agreed to become the prosecutor's sole agent in

London for two years, terminable by three months' notice on either side, and undertook thereby to account for the tale of all goods, and to pay all moneys due)—in March, 1864, in consequence of something that happened, I wrote this letter (produced by Foulger), to the prisoner for the express purpose of defining his duties—(This letter requested the prisoner in future to observe certain rules, amongst others to remit cash for goods sold from stock, and to forward a balance-sheet of accounts received by him, on the 2d of each month)—I sent that letter to the prisoner in consequence of some irregularities that I objected to—the balance-sheets did not come after that—a little cash was remitted at various, some small amounts—the cash did not come in proportion to the goods going out—in December, 1864, after haying waited some time I came up to town, and saw the prisoner—I told him that a great many long-standing accounts were out, and I wished them collected, and I produced a statement of those accounts—he said, "I will collect them, and go round to the customers;" which he did, and I with him—he had the list—amongst those customers was Mr. George Treacher, an East India merchant, of Chatham-place, Blackfriars, and Mr. Rawlings, of Bury-street, St. James's—we went to Mr. Treacher, when we got there the prisoner said, "Excuse me for a moment; I will just see if the principal is in, and I will introduce you"—he went in, I remained on the mat outside—he returned in two or three minutes, and said that Mr. Treacher was not in, he would be in the day following—we went the day following (December 22d) and he went in and took my card—he returned in two or three minutes, and said the account was promised on the 29th—it was 71l. 17s. 5d. according to the books—he did not say whether he had seen Mr. Treacher or not—he went himself to Mr. Rawlings, and said that Mr. Rawlings had promised the account shortly—it was 14l. 9s. 9d.—I afterwards received this letter from the prisoner—(This was dated 30th December, 1864, stating amongst other things, that Treacher had put him of another week)—I have never received those sums.

Cross-examined. Q. Have you your books here? A. Yes; not the prisoner's books, I have my own books—I know nothing about the books in which he would enter the amounts he received; I want to get them—I have not got them—I saw his books last January or February; I don't know which; not since—I have been in town once or twice since—of course I had a right to look at his books—I have received moneys from the prisoner—I know I have not received this 71l. 17s. 5d. from Mr. Treacher, because he has always stated the names of the parties that the money was supposed to come from, and I know he has not stated that name—the accounts I speak of are in his letters—I have not got the letters with me—the books are here in which I enter the amounts received—the letter I have just produced shows that I have not received Treacher's account, in point of fact there was nothing owing by Messrs. Treacher at the time that letter was written—my partner keeps the books at Sheffield—when I came to town, and saw the prisoner at the office, I said, "We must go round and get promises for the accounts owing, "and we went to Treacher's among the rest—I had the whole of the accounts with me—he took them in his hand, and arranged them, which would be the most simple way to go—I said, "If the distances are too far apart, we will hire a cab rather than walk it—he said, "No, we will not take a cab, I will arrange it in nice day's journeys, and we will do it in two or three days;" and amongst his arrangements was this of Treacher's—we had Treacher's account; a balance of 71l. 17s. 5d.—I

have the prisoner's own memorandum-book here in which he put down the sums himself—it is put down here 54l. 6s. 5d. but I could not see his book at the time—this is his own private book which I afterwards found in his desk in the office—I went to Treacher's with him, purposing to go in, but I did not; he wished me to remain outside a minute or two, and I looked upon him as a gentleman—he mid the principal was not in then, and the second time he told me so decidedly that the account was promised on the 29th, and my time was of more value than to go in and wait there—I went with him to Mr. Rawlings as far as the door, and he went forward and returned, and said he would pay shortly—I think there was no other transaction between us and Rawlings, except that one—when I first became acquainted with the prisoner, he was in the employment of Messrs. Mappin—he told me he was receiving 250l. a year there—I don't know that he said he also made 100l. commission—I will not swear he did not, I cannot bear it in mind—I don't know that I went to him at Mappin's warehouse, and told him that I thought he could do better if he established a business for us; it was more his arrangement than ours; it came about in a casual conversation; he said the place did not suit his health, being confined in the room and so on, and I told him we had often thought of an agency of that sort; that was the way in which it first sprang up—I did not tell him that we could not allow him quite the commission he asked, but that I and the two partners would share thirty per cent. between us, each taking ten per cent. profit on the goods; I swear that—I believe during the six yeans he was at Mappin's he bore a most excellent character—I did not give him notice according to the terms of the agreement; he had a very nice way of putting things off; when I came up again in December, he said his wife was confined, and one of his children was very ill, and made many feasible excuses, and I know that both of his children have died since, and I passed it over more easily perhaps than I might have done—I asked for his books, and he said they were at his private house, and from these circumstances I did not press the matter then, but arranged to come up the second week in January, which I did—I should say he has not sent accounts to Sheffield constantly according to the terms of the agreement; I will swear that—he has sent some few accounts, I think about three or four—he has sent shuffling letters; I could produce letters that would take you almost a week to read—he has sent an account of the money he has received from various parties on the one side, and the money he has paid on the other—it was not a balance-sheet; we never could get one; we often pressed him for one, and he always framed some shuffling excuse—we placed trust in his accounts at the time, from what we thought, till we found him out—we took stock in February, 1864; the balance is contained in the letter of March, 1864.

MR. METCALFB. Q. When you left London, after you had been to Treacher's and other places, did you make any arrangement with him as to meeting again? A. Yes; I proposed coming the first week in January, he thought I had better come the second week, and I arranged to do so, and did come—on going to my place of business in London Wall, I did not find the prisoner; he was gone—I never saw him again until he was taken into custody in the country—I knew where he was; from what I could learn, he was at his mother-in-law's, at Shefford; he did not come to my place of business; I took charge of the place myself from that time.

MR. GENT. Q. According to the terms of the agreement, he was not to have any salary; how much commission did you pay him? A. On an

average about 7 1/2—it depended upon his return, which we never could get—I did not induce him to leave Mappin's—it was his own arrangement, because it did not suit his health to be confined there—I can't exactly say what amount we have paid him, or allowed him in account—he did not often apply to us for patterns, and not get them; I swear that—he had a full amount of patterns—he did not say he could not get the bolts and pianoforte keys for tuning; that was a private business of my own.

MR. METCALFE. Q. Did you allow him commission on all the money he accounted to you for? A. We did; after going to Treacher's and other places on 22d December, we did not receive any money from him.

COURT. Q. When was the last time you received any money from him? A. In November last; I think about the 19th—I could tell from the books—I have not got the account with me that was sent with that money—I can't say for certain whether I received any other money from him between 5th October and 19th November.

GEORGE TREACHER . I am an East India merchant at 14, Chatham-place, Blackfriars—on 5th October, 1863, I paid the prisoner 25l. on account of Messrs. White and Johnstone—this is his receipt (produced)—I also paid him 17l. 8s. 11d. on 14th November, 1863, after making some deductions—in December, 1864, there was no money owing from us to White and Johnstone, everything had been settled up to 27th August, 1864—this is the account—it was paid to a young man named Scollard—the account finished at that date—the prisoner did not see me on 22d December; not at all in December—he may have called at the office, but I was not present—I did not promise a cheque to him in December—there was nothing to pay.

Cross-examined. Q. He may have called there and seen some one else? A. Yes; there was no account between us at any time in December.

JOSEPH SCOLLARD . I was employed under the prisoner at London Wall—I went to Mr. Treacher's in August, 1864, and received some money—I paid that over to the prisoner, 53l. 14s. 5d. the same day—(Receipt read)—"October 5th, 1863. Received of Messrs. Treacher and Co., the sum of 25l. sterling, for White and Johnstone, F. W. Le Poidevin."

Cross-examined. Q. You were employed by the prisoner? A. No; Messrs. White and Johnstone; the prisoner employed me, Mr. White engaged me, and paid me—the prisoner handed me the money—his name was up at the office as agent to White and Johnstone.

WILLIAM RAWLINGS . I keep a lodging-house at 33, Bury-street, St. James's—on 23d December, 1863, I paid the prisoner 14l. 9s. 9d.—this is the receipt (produced)—it was paid on the account of Messrs. White and Johnstone—I did not owe them or the prisoner anything in December—I selected some goods between 15th and 20th December—I paid him on 23d—in December, 1864, I did not owe the prisoner anything—he did not come to me in December, 1864—I did not see him in December, 1864.

Cross-examined. Q. He might have called without your seeing him? A. Fifty people might call at our warehouse without my seeing them—the prisoner could have called without my seeing him—(the receipt was dated, December 23d, 1863, received of White and Johnstone 14l. 9s. 9d., signed by the prisoner).

THEODORE HALSTEAD FOULGER (City-detective). On 12th January, I went in search of the prisoner—I found him at a place called Clifton-fields, near Shefford, in Bedfordshire—I told him that I apprehended him on a warrant for embezzling the moneys of his employers, Messrs. White and Johnstone, of London—he made no reply—I found no money on him—I found five

duplicates—I took the prisoner seven miles off to a police-station—I searched the house where he was, and found four books, some invoices, and other papers, amongst others those letters which have been produced—before I went to Bedfordshire on the 12th, I had been searching for him in London, from Saturday, the 7th—I had not been to his private house—I had been looking for him, watching at the Great Northern Railway, where I was informed I should be likely to find him.

Cross-examined. Q. Were you not walking about London with him on 7th? A. Not on the 7th, I think—on the 6th I was—I am certain it was not on the 7th—it was at his mother-in-law's that I found him; where his wife was—I apprehended him at 2 in the morning—I had a great difficulty in finding him—he never came near there for two days—I went down on 10th—I was not aware he was wanted when I was with him in London.

MR. METCALFE. Q. You say you were about London with him, what was that for? A. On other business—it would defeat the ends of justice if I were to say what it was—I was expecting at that time that he would be a witness about some other man.

MR. GENT submitted that it had been clearly proved by the agreement referred to in this case, that the prisoner was an agent, and not a clerk or a servant, and referred to the cases of Reg. v. Tite, Cox's Criminal Caves; Meg. v. Walker, Dearneley, and Bell, page 600; and Reg. v. May, Leigh, and Case, page 63. The COURT considered that the prisoner might be an agent and also a servant, and left it to the jury to say whether he was a servant or not

GUILTY .—The Jury complained of the laxity of the prosecutors in not keeping the accounts closer with the prisoner.

30th January 1865
Reference Numbert18650130-244
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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244. FREDERICK WILLIAM LE POIDEVIN was again indicted for obtaining by false pretences, 12 forks and 6 spoons, from George Adams.

MR. METCALFE conducted the Prosecution, and MR. GENT the Defence.

WILLIAM BLAKEWAY . I am clerk to Messrs. Chorner and Adams, of Hosier-lane, Smithfield, wholesale silversmiths—Messrs. White and Johnstone have dealt with us—I do not know the prisoner—I received this order (produced)—it was brought, I think, the day before Christmas day, Saturday, by a person named Scollard—I executed that order—I supplied six tablespoons and six dessert spoons, and six table-forks—I sent this invoice with the goods—we should not have sent these goods unless we had believed that the order came from White and Johnstone—they were silver goods—17l. 7s. 7d. I believe was the amount of the invoice—I have seen some of those goods since at Guildhall, and some at Mr. Russell's—they are ours.

Cross-examined. Q. Has the prisoner dealt long with you on behalf of White and Johnstone? A. There was one transaction previously, but I don't know whether it was through him or not—the goods were not served by me—I won't swear that there has not been more than one transaction.

MR. METOALFE. Q. With White and Johnstone, or through the prisoner? A. With White and Johnstone.

JOSEPH SCOLLARD . I am employed at the prosecutor's office, at London-wall—on 24th December, I think, 1 took this order, by the prisoner's direction, to Messrs. Chorner and Adams—he simply told me to take the order and bring something back—the whole of this order is in his writing—I got a quantity of silver things and this invoice—I brought them hack and gave them to the prisoner the same day—I never saw them again till they were produced by the pawnbroker.

Cross-examined. Q. Had you often been to different manufacturers for

goods? A. Yes; I had not been to Chorner and Adam's before—I have been to Holland and Son's, Northampton-square, two or three times, and several other houses of business—Silver and Flemings; they deal in fancy goods—I have also been to Smiley'e, who are silversmiths—I got some spoons and forks from there—I don't remember any others—I will not swear I have not been elsewhere.

MR. METCALFE. Q. Did you go to Holland's among other places? A. Yes; I went there twice and got three watches on each occasion; that was about November or December—I took written orders for them from the prisoner, and gave the watches to him—(order read: "White and Johnstone 10, London-wall, E. C. Messrs. Chorner and Co., Hosier-lane. Please deliver to bearer the goods at foot. Yours, pro White and Johnstone, F. W. Le Poidevin. If your collector will call on Saturday, 30th, he can have the money. Half a dozen fiddle-pattern dessert forks, and half a dozen ditto ditto spoons (silver)."

THEODORE HALSTEAD FOULGER . I took the prisoner into custody—amongst the papers I found, I found a duplicate for goods pledged at Russell's; it was given to me by his wife—I also found a duplicate relating to goods at Sowerby's—Mr. White found the invoices for the goods.

Cross-examined. Q. Where did you find them? A. At his house in Shefford; not on him, his wife gave them to me.

WILLIAM WHITE . I am in partnership with Mr. Johnstone, of Sheffield—the prisoner was in our service at 10, London-wall—he had no right to obtain goods for us from Chorner and Adams, or any other place—we forwarded goods to him from Sheffield—we are manufacturers—he had no right to obtain watches for us from Holland and Son—we don't deal in watches—I found in his desk an invoice for the goods at Messrs. Chorner and Adams—we had previous transactions with them, direct from Sheffield, nothing through the prisoner—we never gave him any authority to go to them.

Cross-examined. Q. Will you swear that you have never known the prisoner to get goods for you to sell again? A. He has in one or two instances got goods, and the invoices have not been sent to us for some time, and we have requested him not to repeat it again—he has got goods for us twice or three times; not more that I am aware of—we objected to that—I never met or saw the prisoner in Dublin, or on a journey—I have never told him that he might get goods at Harrison's—I will swear that—if Mr. Harrison said so to the prisoner it would not be true—I have not told the prisoner that he might get silver spoons if he required them at any time from Hall and Holt's, because he could get them cheaper than at Sheffield.

MR. METCALFE. Q. About what time was it that you told him not to do this again? A. The last time we told him was in November, 1864—he sent them to the customers on those occasions, but we wished him not to do it.

ALFRED COTTON . I am assistant to Mr. Russell, pawnbroker of 37, Fore-street—I produce six silver tablespoons, six dessert forks, and six dessert spoons pawned with us on 24th December for 6l. by the prisoner—this duplicate produced by the officer corresponds with the ticket I have.

Cross-examined. Q. Had you others pledged on that day by other people? A. Yes; I dare say we had—the prisoner pledged these.

JOHN SMITH . I am assistant to Mr. Sowerby, pawnbroker, of 78, Chiswell-street—I produce six silver tablespoons pawned on 28th December, for 4l.—I believe the prisoner pawned them—this is the corresponding duplicate.

Cross-examined. Q. Have you the spoons here? A. Yes—I am not quite sure it was the prisoner who pledged them.

MR. METCALFE. Q. Are you sure that is the corresponding duplicate? A. Yes.

WILLIAM BLAKEWAY (re-examined). These six spoons produced by the last witness have our mark on them—I believe they are the spoons I supplied on 24th December to the prisoner—they would be worth from 7l. to 8l. the half dozen; 4l. would be very much under the mark—these produced by Mr. Cotton are also mine—they complete the invoice.

Cross-examined. Q. Are you manufacturers of these things? A. Yes; we made those; they correspond with what I sold—I could not say they were the same spoons; they are our make—I would not swear they are what I sent to the prisoner to that day.

MR. METCALFE. Q. Have all of them your mark upon them? A. Yes; I know them by the manufacturer's mark and a private mark besides—they correspond with the description on the invoice.


30th January 1865
Reference Numbert18650130-245
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

Related Material

245. FREDERICK WILLIAM LE POIDEVIN was again, indicted for stealing 380 spoons, 44 knives, 61 forks, 1 pair of fish carvers, and other articles, the property of William White and another.

MR. METCALFE conducted the Prosecution, and MR. GENT the Defence.

WILLIAM WHITE . I am in partnership with Mr. Johnstone—we placed the prisoner at 10, London-wall, to carry on our business—he commenced with a stock sent up from Sheffield, consisting chiefly of electro-plated goods—I examined the stock after he went away, and found it upwards of 400l. deficient—that was for things we could not account for, that were not entered at all—I have seen goods produced by several pawnbroker, and what I have seen are our goods—the prisoner had no right to pledge goods in any way, and if he made a sale it was his duty to send us an account of it the same day.

Cross-examined. Q. Don't you know that an agent would be entitled to keep goods for any commission owing to him? A. No; I saw these goods at Guildhall—the prisoner paid Scollard, I believe, up to last December.

MR. METCALFE. Q. Is there money owing to the prisoner by you, or is there money owing to you by him? A. Money owing to us by him—I believe 1, 000l.—there is no pretence for saying that we owe money to him.

THEODORE HALSTEAD FOULGER . I found five duplicates on the prisoner—I produce two which relate to goods pawned at Harrison's—those goods are given up—I afterwards searched the prisoner's house, and found thirty-nine duplicates; they apply to these goods—watches, electro-plated goods, and silver goods.

Cross-examined. Q. Those are the duplicates you spoke of that the wife gave to you? A. Yes, some of them—I did not say all when you asked me before—what I produce now I had from the wife.

JAMES HOLMES . I am assistant to Mr. Barker, pawnbroker of 17, Aldgate High-street—I produce five dozen plated spoons and forks pawned for 1l. 15s. on 10th December, 1864, by the prisoner in the name of James Ward—I find the corresponding duplicate here.

JOHN MORRITT WALTER . I am a pawnbroker, at 105, Aldersgate-street—I produce a plated fish-carver and fork pawned on 3d December for 1l. in the name of John Ward—I did not take them in myself—I produce the ticket, it corresponds with the one found on the prisoner—I also produce twelve plated tablespoons pawned on 30th November for 16s. in the name of John Richards, 7, John-street—I have the corresponding duplicate to that; and two

dozen tablespoons pawned on 10th December, 1864, in the name of John Ward—I did not take in the two last—I think I took in the fish-carver and fork for 1l.—I can't remember who pawned it—the person is not here who took in the others—all the three duplicates correspond with those produced by the officer.

WILLIAM WHITE (re-examined). This property produced was part of our stock—I find our marks and labels on them—the price of these spoons and forks produced by Holmes, is about 68s. a dozen gross, and about 4s. 6d. a dozen net, for cash.

Cross-examined. Q. Have you sufficiently looked at those to swear they are all yours without undoing them? A. Yes; they have our labels on them—these were amongst the stock we sent up to London-wall—all I can say is, they are our make.

REEVES. I produce some plated waiters pawned on 13th October for 5l. 10s. in the name of John Richards—I have the corresponding duplicate here.

Cross-examined. Q. That was not the prisoner, I presume? A. I don't know the prisoner at all.

MR. GENT submitted that if the prisoner was an agent he could not be charged with larceny; as an agent had an ownership which entitled him to hold goods, and he would only be liable as a misdemeanant, see Reg. v. Hassell. MR. METCALFE urged that if the prisoner was an agent; he was a bailee and then the Bailee Act would apply. The RECORDER was of opinion that there was nothing in the objection.

GUILTY .— Six Years' Penal Servitude.

30th January 1865
Reference Numbert18650130-246
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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246. CHARLES LORD (24) , PLEADED GUILTY to unlawfully obtaining by false pretences from Alfred Thomas Evans, 39 pencils, 5 quires of paper and other goods with intent to defraud John Lucas Houghton.

GUILTY.— Confined Two Months.

NEW COURT.—Tuesday, January 31st, 1865.

Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

30th January 1865
Reference Numbert18650130-247
VerdictGuilty > lesser offence

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247. SUSANNAH GLANDERS (47) , Feloniously cutting and wounding James Glanders, with intent to do him some grievous bodily harm.

MR. KEMP conducted the Prosecution.

JAMES GLANDERS . I am a brush-maker, of James-street, Bethnal-green—I was sitting by the fire, and my wife came up stairs, and brought up all manner of family affairs—I requested her to go down, and she would not—I turned my head to avoid quarrelling with her—she said that her brother-in-law and I were to meet together—I became rather irritated, and up with my hand rather hastily; it might have struck her—she snatched something off the box, and I felt a sensation come over me—I do not know what she struck me with, it was so hasty—I did not see what was in her hand—I do not think she intended to do it, because she was smiling a few minutes before.

ROBERT KITCHEN (Policeman, K 366). On 15th January, the prosecutor called me, and told me in the prisoner's presence that she had stabbed him with a knife—she said that she knew nothing at all about it, he must have done it himself—the blood on his arm was congealed—it appeared to have been done half an hour—I found no knife—the prosecutor said in her

presence that it was a Spanish knife, and that she had made away with it—I took her in custody.

Prisoner. I told you it must have been done accidentally. Witness. No; you said that he did it himself.

JAMES ROLFE . I am divisional surgeon to the Police—on Sunday, 15th January, between 4 and 5 in the afternoon, I examined the prosecutor—he had a clean incised wound, an inch deep, on the upper part of his right arm—it could not have been self-inflicted—it was dangerous from its wounding the nerve of the delcoid muscle, which might have caused paralysis—it might have been inflicted with a knife, but certainly not by a file.

Prisoner's Defence. My husband is paralyzed, and that arm is always numb; the knife was in his hand. I had made some broth, and sent some up by the little boy to my husband, who was sitting by the fire. When went up, he called me filthy names, and used disgusting language. I said, "You ought to be ashamed to use such language before the child." He struck me on the mouth, and he had the knife and fork in his hand. I declare I did not do it I hope the little boy is here to prove how he ill-uses me.

GUILTY of unlawfully wounding under excitement. Confined Three Months.

30th January 1865
Reference Numbert18650130-248
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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248. HENRY WILLIAM GOODFELLOW (38) , Feloniously marrying Eliza Ann Edwards, his wife Eliza being alive.

MR. DALEY conducted the Prosecution, and MR. COOPER the Defence.

ELIZA ANN EDWARDS . I reside at Priest-bridge, Mortlake, Surrey—I have known the prisoner over seven years—he is a gardener—he paid his addresses to me, and proposed to marry me—he told me he was single—we were married on 10th July, 1861, in Hackney Church—I lived with him as his wife up to 20th July, 1862, only one year—I then went to my mother's to be confined—I had a daughter, who is still alive—in August I heard the prisoner was a married man, by a letter that was sent to my mother—I did not live with him after that—I have both the certificates (produced)—I obtained one at St. Paul's Church, Hammersmith—I and my mother compared it with the entry in the register.

Cross-examined. Q. I believe he has behaved very kindly to you, has he not? A. No, he has not—he strongly denied that he was a married man, even when I showed him the certificate—I did not ask him before I married him—I went home to be confined because he would not find me anything.

ISABELLA EDWARDS . I am the wife of Arthur Compton Edwards, a police-constable, and live at 2, St. John-terrace, South Hackney—I am the mother of the last witness—I saw her married to the prisoner on 10th February, 1861—the certificate is a true copy of the entry in the registry.

THOMAS GOODFELLOW . I am engineer on board the Robert Barnes steam-tug—the prisoner is my uncle—I was present at St. Paul's Church, Hammersmith, on 10th December, 1854, when he married Elizabeth Goodfellow—she was his cousin—I next saw her about a fortnight ago, I believe it was her, at one of the public-houses in Bishopsgate-street; at the Bald-faced Stag, I believe it was.

Cross-examined. Q. Had you not seen her since the the wedding till then? A. No, and never heard anything about her—I did not know whether she was dead or alive—I had seen the prisoner during that time a great many times—he was living by himself till he married the second time—I did not know where the first wife was living till she came up

all of a sudden—I float up and down the Thames from Gravesend to London—I don't call myself a seafaring man.

THOMAS EDWARDS . I keep a beer-house, at Priest-bridge, Mortlake—the prosecutrix is my sister—I was not aware at the time the prisoner married her that he was a married man—I was examined before the Magistrate—that is my signature to my deposition—what I said is wrongly put down—I did not know that he was married before he married my sister—I saw the first wife at Kennington on 2d January—I spoke to her, in company with a police-constable—I afterwards saw her at the Bald-faced Stag—I did not know her before—I never saw her till 2d January—I had been inquiring—somebody said she was the prisoner's wife.

WILLIAM AUSTIN (Policeman, V 164). I took the prisoner—I told him he was charged with bigamy, in the presence of the prosecutrix—he made no answer to the charge.

Cross-examined. Q. Did not he say that he thought his first wife had been dead for a long time? A. He stated so at the Police-court—he said that he had not seen her for nine or ten years, and he thought she was dead.

GUILTY .—LOUISA GOODFELLOW stated that the prisoner's wife lived with him only six weeks after their marriage, and then pawned his property, and left him, and that he had not seen her since.— Confined One Month.

30th January 1865
Reference Numbert18650130-249
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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249. HANNAH CAREY (24) , Unlawfully endeavouring to conceal the birth of her child. MR. WILLIAMS conducted the Prosecution.


30th January 1865
Reference Numbert18650130-250
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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250. SAMUEL OATLEY (25) , Robbery on Joseph Eutier, and stealing from his person 1 watch and chain, his property.

MR. COOPER conducted the Prosecution.

JOSEPH EUTIER . (Through an interpreter.) I am a shoemaker, living at 1, Cold Harbour, Black wall—on 9th January, a little after 9 at night, I was in a lane which the prisoner knows the name of, and two men met me—they did not speak, but they struck me in the face and detained me—I was frightened, and ran into a shop—they ran after me, and wanted to pull me out, but afterwards they went out, and a woman let me out of her shop by the back door—when I came out, they came after me and took hold of me again—I ran into another shop—they knocked me down—my coat was torn, and I lost my watch, which was attached to a chain round my neck—I never saw it again—the chain was not broken before—the prisoner is the one who struck me first—I was not drunk—my watch was worth 11l.

Prisoner. Q. Can you swear positively that I am the man who struck you? A. I am quite sure—I have the policeman as a witness that you had hold of me—I did not see you steal anything—I firmly believe that one of the two men who attacked me stole my watch.

JAMES NORTH (Policeman, K 173). On 9th January, at twenty minutes past 9 o'clock, I saw a crowd, and found Eutier lying on the pavement on his back, and the prisoner holding him by one hand on each shoulder and stooping over him—Eutier charged him with striking the first blow—the prisoner said that there were two men—the prisoner's knees were bent, because he was stooping down with his right hand on the prosecutors left, holding his left hand on the right shoulder—the moment he saw me he stood upright, and the prosecutor immediately got up from the ground—he did not pull the prosecutor up with him—the prisoner said that two men had struck him, but that he was taking the prosecutor's part—Eutier

was bruised on one side of the face, and his jacket was very much torn—he had been drinking, but was not drunk—he knew very well what he was about—I searched the prisoner, but only found a comb and a tobacco-box—there was a great crowd, but nobody was interfering with the prosecutor.

Prisoner. Q. Was not I holding my arms out keeping the crowd away, and did not I say, "I dare any other man to kick him?" A. I was told that you bad said so—you were not standing with one leg on one side of him and the other on the other.

Prisoner's Defence. Gentlemen, does it stand feasible that, in a mixed crowd of people like that, I should knock him down and rob him, and stand over him? They took me to the station, and found nothing on me. I have never been charged in my life with such a thing. I was really taking the part of the prosecutor; and perhaps when you hear my three witnesses, you will believe it also.

Witnesses for the Defence.

GEORGE BOWEN . I am a carpenter—I know the prisoner—on 9th January, I was in the Back-road, and saw a row on the opposite side of the way, opposite the Jolly Sailors public-house, and afterwards there was some fighting—three or four people were in company, and from a round they got to fighting, and fought till they got to the corner of Cross-street—I saw the prosecutor fighting one of two men, and when he got to the corner of Cross-street, he took refuge in the shop of a pawnbroker named Cohen, and stopped there some few minutes—when he came out, the same two men, attacked him again, and knocked him down—then he ran across into Mr. Pawsey's the grocers—he was cruelly beaten about, but not by the prisoner—I saw him come out of the grocer's, and he was knocked down again—I went to a policeman, and said, "Policeman, you are wanted; here is a man who will be murdered if you do not make haste"—I am sure neither of the men was the prisoner—when I came back with the policeman, the prosecutor got up from the pavement where he had been lying, and the prisoner was sitting on a flour-barrel outside Mr. Pawsey's door—there were plenty of people standing round, who said, "This is not the man who has been knocking him about; there goes the man"—I did not recognise them as the men, because as soon as I saw the man knocked down, I ran for a policeman—I can say that the prisoner was not one of them, because he never moved from Mr. Pawsey's door—he never was "standing stooping over the prosecutor, that I saw; but I did not see enough to say whether it is untrue that he was stooping, with his hands on the prosecutor's shoulders—he may have moved while I was away for a policeman—I have known him twelve or fourteen years—he is not a companion of mine; only passing the time of day going through the street.

JAMES NELDRETT . I am a baker—this row happened close to my door—I was passing from my door to the stable in Johnson-street, and the prosecutor came out at the side door of the pawn-shop—two men came from the Back-road; one was larger than he, with a shiny cap, who held the prosecutor while the other gave him four or five severe blows in his face—he escaped by the tearing of his coat, and ran into the shop of a person named Pawsey—the same two men followed him, and he fell backwards with his head on the pavement—the prisoner came up and stood over him with both his fists clenched, and said, "No one shall touch him till the policeman comes"—the smallest man was about to kick him on the head with the heel of his boot, but I pushed him away, and said "Whatever the man has done, you shall not do this"—I am sure the prisoner is not

one of the men who were assaulting him—the only words the prosecutor used were, "What for you beat me in this manner"—the prisoner said, "I will let you know, you b----, if you treat me and my wife in this manner"—he said nothing about the watch.

Cross-examined by MR. COOPER. How long have you known him? A, Eleven years—he does not deal with me—I did not mistake the other man for the prisoner; they are quite unlike—the big one was dressed in a shiny cap and a large monkey-jacket—the prisoner was straddling over the prosecutor—I did not see him stooping and holding him down—he had not time to go upon his knees.

REUBEN PAWSEY . I am a grocer and cheesemonger—on 9th January, between 9 and 10 o'clock, the prosecutor ran into my shop—I ran out of the parlour to prevent his coming in, as he was very excited, and I thought he was mad, like as if he was very drunk and had been fighting—he caught hold of me, and I released myself from him—I then saw the prisoner standing over him—he said, "I will defy any other man to touch him"—I believe from the prosecutor's voice that he was then lying on the ground—I heard two or three voices sing out, "There go the two men who have done it MR. COOPER here stated that he would withdraw from the prosecution.


30th January 1865
Reference Numbert18650130-251
VerdictNot Guilty > no evidence

Related Material

251. SAMUEL OATLEY was again indicted for a common assault upon Joseph Eutier; upon which MR. COOPER offered no evidence.


30th January 1865
Reference Numbert18650130-252
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty; Guilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude; Imprisonment > penal servitude

Related Material

252. JOHN DAVIS (21), and JAMES CRUTTY (18) , Stealing I purse and 5l., the property of Charles Dyer, from the person of Mary Dyer. Second Count, charging DAVIS with receiving the same.

CRUTTY— PLEADED GUILTY .— Seven Years' Penal Servitude.

MR. DALEY conducted the Prosecution, and MESSRS. NICHOLSON and PATHE

the defence.

SARAH DYER . I am the wife of Charles Dyer, a beershop-keeper, of 21, St. Bartholomew-close—on 9th January, between 9 and 10 at night, I was in St. Bartholomew-close with a lad named Elliott, looking at a fire—I had a purse in my pocket under my apron containing 3l. in gold, and 2l. in silver—I saw the prisoners there, and Crutty put his hand in my pocket and took my purse—he then went to Davis and placed it in Davis's hand, who put his hands in his coat pockets—I said, "You have got my purse; you have got my money"—he said, "It is all a mistake, Missus"—I took hold of the two, but Davis got away—I held Crutty, and gave him in custody.

Cross-examined by MR. NICHOLSON. Q. Are you quite sure the purse was put into his pocket? A. He put his hands into his pockets, and the purse was in one of them—I could not be mistaken—I saw my purse plainly in his right hand—it was not dark—I was just under a lamp—it was a large bag-purse, and the silver was large—he could not close his hand over it—Davis tore himself from my hand, and ran away.

THOMAS PALLAM . I am a butcher, of 2, Aldersgate-street—on 9th January, between 9 and 10 at night, I was in Bartholomew-close, and saw the prosecutrix there—I was very near her—she called out that she had been robbed—she had hold of Crutty—I said, "What is the matter?"—she said that she had been robbed, and that man had robbed her—Davis was close by, and she said, "He has not got my purse now, he has given it to that man"—he ran away, and I gave chase and caught Davis—I said, "You scoundrel, you have robbed the woman; you must come back with me'—

he said, "It is no use now, I have not got it"—I said, "You have given it to those girls"—there were some girls waiting—I took him to the station.

Cross-examined. Q. Are you sure Davis is the boy? A. Yes—I believe he gave the purse to some one else—I did not see what was passed, but I saw the motion.

CHARLES ELLIOTT . I am a printer, of 14, Bartholomew-close—I was watching the fire, and saw Pallam take hold of Crutty—Davis was close beside him—I saw a shuffling between the two, as if they passed something, and she said, "You passed it to that man"—she caught hold of Davis, but he got away—he was afterwards stopped and brought back.

Cross-examined. Q. Was it very dark? A. No; there was a lamp close by—I believe Crutty said it was a mistake.

JOHN EDWARD BONE (City-policeman, 239). About a quarter to 10 on this night I was in Bartholomew-close—I heard a cry of "Stop thief!" and saw a person holding Crutty; I took him to the station—I afterwards searched Davis, and found 1s. 6 1/2 d. on him—he gave me a false address.

Cross-examined. Q. How do you know? A. Because I went there, and no such person lived there—I wrote it down, and have it in my pocket now—it is the same address as is on the charge-sheet—the prisoners denied that they were on friendly terms—it was dark, but there were lamps—Davis denied the charge.

MR. DALEY. Q. Was there a fire there? A. Yes; there was a great light from the fire, and sparks flying up into the air.

DAVIS. GUILTY** on the Second Count Seven Years' Penal Servitude .

30th January 1865
Reference Numbert18650130-253
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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253. GEORGE MCCRAIGIE (50) , PLEADED GUILTY to Embezzling the sums of 4l. 3s. 9d., 47l. 12s., and 21l. 10s. 6d., the property of Thomas Norton and others, his masters. Recommended to mercy by the Prosecutor.

Confined Twelve Months.

OLD COURT.—Wednesday, February 1st, and Thursday, February 2d, 1865.

Before Mr. Baron Martin.

30th January 1865
Reference Numbert18650130-254
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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254. JOHN MITCHESON WHITE (26), and ROBERT SUTTON (27), were indicted for Feloniously casting away a British ship, the Snowdrop, the property of John George Johnson and others, with intent to prejudice them. Other Counts varying the intent.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE, with MESSRS. GIFFARD and F. H. LEWIS, conducted the Prosecution. MR. SERJEANT PARRY, with MR. SLEIGH, defended WHITE, and MR. METCALFE defended SUTTON.

MATTHEW CRAIG . In September last I sailed in the barque Snowdrop—I shipped as carpenter—her burden was 396 tons; she was bound for Cronstadt in ballast—the prisoner White was the captain, and Sutton the mate—on the morning of 4th October the vessel struck upon a reef called the Stonescar reef, to the eastward of Revel, about a quarter of a mile from Stonescar island, and about twelve miles from Port Cundar, the mainland nearest the island—the vessel struck twice; she got placed between two rocks, one on the port bow and another on the starboard quarter—the wind was W. N. W.; it was not blowing very hard; it was blowing a pretty fresh breeze, but nothing very hard—after she struck the sails were clewed up; they were not furled at that time—I sounded the pumps when she struck; I found she was making no water—I did that three times, and reported it to White—he was then on the quarter-deck, the poop; there were other persons

there who heard me—after that the captain called me down into the cabin; he said, "Come down and have a glass of grog"—he then said, "Now, carpenter, the ship is here, and I don't want her ever to get off; she is not making water, can you make her make water?"—I replied, I could—he asked by what means—I said, "By boring a couple of holes into her"—he said, "Go and do it, carpenter, and I will see you all right"—he said that his brother and he were young men, and if they did not get their insurance they would be ruined—he talked about the qualities of the vessel, that she was the fastest sailing vessel in the Baltic, and that he was the best navigator in the Baltic—he said, "Go on and do it, and I will keep the crew employed about getting the anchor out astern during the time you are doing it"—I then went on deck, went down into the half-deck, and took a half-inch auger; I am wrong, it was an inch and a quarter auger I took at that time, a chisel and a hammer—I took them out of my tool-chest, I brought them on deck, and hove them down the fore-hatch on the top of the ballast; then I went down myself—I took up the tools and put them on some dunnage-wood aft—then I came up out of the hold again, and went down the half-deck, and took, a half-inch auger out of my chest and put it in the hold in the same way—then I went down into the hold myself again, followed by Button, the mate, and he asked me if I could not start the wooden ends forward—I said I could not—I went aft on the starboard side and took a graving piece out of the ceiling; that is the inside lining of the ship, and I bored a a hole with a half-inch auger between the timbers—Sutton was standing beside me at that time—I bored the hole in the outside plank, and the water came in—I then replaced the graving-piece—I then went forward on the port side, and took out another graving-piece and bored a hole in the same manner, and returned the graving-piece—I put it in the same way as it had been before; I put it in with my hand—I hammered the one aft in on the inside—Sutton was there when I bored the hole in the port side—I then went on deck—the crew were getting the anchor ready, and the boats—they made an effort to take the anchor astern—they went about a boat's length from the ship, on the starboard quarter, and returned in about ten minutes—they then took the anchor on board again—White then asked me to sound the pumps—I did so, and reported that there was twenty inches of water in her; that was about between 10 and 11 in the day—I went into the cabin again; the captain asked me—he said the ship was not making much water yet—I said no, but I could make her make more if he chose—he said, "Go on and do it then, carpenter"—I went on deck again, went down the hold, and took an inch-and-a-quarter auger and bored two inch-and-a-quarter holes in the same places as the half-inch holes were—I stood upon the ceiling to do it; I took out the graving-pieces again—I could not manage to put one of them back again, for the force of the water—I then went on dock and found the crew getting their things ready to go ashore—I Went down into the cabin again and had some conversation with the captain and mate—we were talking about the ship, and we had a glass of brandy each, and then the captain and I went down into the hold to see if the ship was making the water—we went aft on the starboard side, and were standing by the water-tank; that was about six feet from where the holes were, and the captain said, "Now, carpenter, between you and me and the water-tank, this must never be known; you must not speak about it, and I will see you all right"—while we were there I saw the steward come part of the way down; he came half way down the ladder, down the main hatch, with the captain's belt—he said, "Here is your belt, Captain White"—the captain said, "Take

it away, keep it, I don't want it"—we went on deck after that, and the captain went down in the cabin and packed up his things—he and I left the vessel; we left at different times—we were not all ashore before 3 in the afternoon—there was no pumping at any time—I went to Revel, then to St. Petersburg, and then shipped for England.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT PARRY. Q. When did you first engage to go this voyage? A. It was when I got paid off from my last voyage to the West Indies—the Snowdrop sailed from Gravesend on 10th September—I bad engaged as carpenter on board her, three days before that; it might be four days, I don't recollect exactly; it was before we started at Gravesend—my wages were 5l. 15s. a month—I had sailed to the West Indian in this ship, before, under Captain White—It was about 9 o'clock in the morning that I bored the first hole, as near as I can recollect—I sounded the pump immediately after the ship struck, as soon as I came on deck, and I sounded again in about ten minutes—I bored two separate holes, one on the port side of the ship and one on the starboard; one on each side, with a half-inch auger—an auger is the same nature as a gimlet—I afterwards enlarged those holes with the other auger; that would be about a little after 10 o'clock—I remember the long-boat and the jolly-boat being got out—I don't recollect that one of the thole-pins of the long-boat was broken—I did not go down into the long-boat and mend it; I swear that—I went into the long-boat but I did not make a thole-pin—there was a thole-pin in the boat, and one broke, that had been in the hole, which I took out, but I did not make any thole-pin; there was a thole-pin in the boat to put in—the thole-pin was broken in the hole, in the gunwale of the boat—I did not take my hammer and one of the augers into the long-boat and use them—I got the end of the thole-pin out—I did it with a top-maul and a piece of wood; I backed it out; I did not use the auger—nothing more passed between me and the captain but what I have stated—my chest of tools was in the half-deck—the boatswain and the two boys had their berths in the half-deck besides me—Banter is the name of one of the boys; I don't know the name of the other—I saw Captain Downward when I came to London.

Q. How came you to go to him? A. I reflected upon what I had done on the passage home, and I thought I was in a critical position, that I was endangering myself—that was the first time I so thought—it was in coming from Cronstadt in the vessel I shipped in; I dare say it might be about half the passage home—it was then for the first time I thought I was in a difficult position, and had done wrong; I swear that—I did think it was wrong at the time, but I did not reflect upon it; I mean that the first time I reflected upon it was when I was coming home—I was not drunk on that morning; I had been drinking; I was not the worse for liquor; I don't say I was quite sober, never having tasted liquor; I took three or four glasses of liquor—I went to Mr. Downward to ensure my own safety, thinking, perhaps, some of the crew might give it in in London, and that I might be brought up—that was my reason and no other—I had heard of Mr. Downward before I went—I bad not heard of any reward offered by Lloyd's Salvage Association; I swear that—I never heard of any reward—I did not know anything of Mr. Downward before I went to him first—I was told to go to him by the master of the house where I was stopping—I have not been earning my living since then; Lloyd's Salvage Association have been supporting me, they have been clearing my expenses, giving me sea wages, and paying my board—that has been for ten or eleven weeks, I dare say—I have never heard of any reward offered by Lloyd's Salvage Association for giving information; I swear that—I don't expect any reward; I

swear that—I have not been promised any—nothing has been said to me—about any reward—before I went to Gravesend to join the Snowdrop, I was lodging in a coffee-house in St. George's-street, with a plumber and glazier, named Marshall—I was not living there with a woman of the name of Margaret—I was at that coffee-house sleeping with a woman—it was not my wife—I had been living with her there about a week—I called her Margaret—I did not say just now that I was not living there, and sleeping with a woman of that name—I thought you meant the woman I was living with was the mistress of the house—I am married—my wife was at home at Liverpool at that time—I have two children—I had an advance note—I did not cash that with a person named Brown—Mr. Gambridge cashed it—Brown got it done for me—it was for 5l. 15s.—it was my duty to have joined the ship in London; I failed to do so—I was staying at this coffee-house; it is not a brothel; there was never anything of the sort in the house before—I spent the whole of the 5l. 15s. before I joined the vessel at Gravesend—I bought clothes—Mr. Brown and a person connected with the Board of Trade came to me, and insisted upon my joining the vessel—I did intend to join; I did not refuse to join; I went to join in London, and the vessel was gone—they did not take me down to Gravesend and put me on board; Mr. Brown did—one of the inspectors of the Board of Trade came to me; a person whose duty it is to look after the seamen—when I was going on board the ship the captain did not at first refuse to take me—I did not hear him say to Mr. Brown, "Oh, let the vagabond come on board"—he did not say that in my presence, or hearing—at that time I owed the mate about 2l. 4s. or 2l. 5s.—I did not hear the mate say. "Let the vagabond come on board"—I did not hear the mate say anything—I never said I would not go on board unless I had some more money—the captain scolded me for not being on board in London—he said, "Carpenter, this is a pretty time to come on board; the ship has been detained through you"—I sent Brown to ask the captain for money to pay for the boat for bringing myself off, bat not with any threat that I would not come on board—Mr. Brown did not tell me the captain refused to give me any money—I was sober at the time the officer of the Board of Trade came to me—the captain did complain that I had detained the ship—I did not, that I recollect, say to Mr. Brown, "Never mind, Mr. Brown; d—the old tub; I will be one with then yet"—I will not swear positively that I did not—I did not say those words—I swear that I did not say the words, "D—the old tub; I will be one with them"—I did not say I was d—sorry I had come to the ship—I dare say I said the vessel was an old vessel, and I could get a better, but I did not say, "D—the old tub"—I did not say "She is nothing but an old tub; they are a bad lot"—I said it was only a short voyage, and I dare say I could put up with it—I saw Mr. Brown on my return home—I did not owe him anything when I came home—his wife had a pawn-ticket belonging to me, which I went for; I had left it with her—I did not say to Mr. Brown, "I have got plenty of money, "or "shall get plenty of money"—Brown did not ask what for, nor did I say, "Why, for scuttling the ship; I have been to the Insurance people, and they will pay me handsomely"—I said I had been to Lloyd's, and reported what I had done—I was very badly clothed when I returned—I did not say to Mr. Brown, "I shall have to get plenty of money from Lloyd's next week, and then I will come and pay you for the ticket of ray pawned coat"—I never said to anyone that I was going to get money from Lloyd's—I do not expect it; that I say on my oath—I am living with my wife now; she is in London—After leaving Stonescar Island, we went to Port Cundar—I had not deposited my chest of tools with the

mate for money he had lent me; the mate had sold me a coat and a shirt, that I had not paid him for—I was wearing that coat at Revel after the wreck—in Cronstadt the mate insisted upon my taking the coat off my back and returning it to him, because I had not paid him I for it—I went to him almost crying, and asked him to let me have the coat, because I bad no other—when I saw that he would not give it to me, I told him to take it, that I would have a coat yet—I sold part of my tools at Cronstadt; I lost part of them.

Q. Did not the mate complain at Cronstadt of your getting drunk every day, and spending your money in that way instead of paying him what you owed him after the wreck? A. He never complained of my drinking, or of anything else, until the money I had was all spent, and I bad shipped again, and then he complained that I did not pay him when I had the money—he did say that I had spent my money in eating and drinking instead of paying him—he complained to me, and he kept the coat—I signed a protest at Revel—I was sworn to the truth of it—an oath was administered to me—I could not tell you who administered it—the oath was to this effect, "We swear to God, the Lord, that all that the circumstances mentioned by us, and contained in the underwritten declaration, and again at this present fairly read before us, are the real truths as sure as God and His Holy Gospel shall help us now and for ever Amen."

Q. Did you then tell the whole truth? A. I told nothing at all; the protest was made out when we went there; it was read by a foreigner who talked very indifferent English; I did not understand a word he said—it said in the protest that the vessel made water; it did not say by what means she made water—I did not say a word at Revel about the holes that I bad bored in the ship—(MR. SERJEANT PARRY submitted that the protest should be put in evidence at part of the case for the prosecution. MR. BARON MARTIN being decidedly of opinion that it was no part of the duty of the prosecution to do so, MR. SERJEANT PARRY put in, by consent, an authenticated copy of the protest which was read, it was signed by the prisoners, the witness, and others of the crew, and contained the following passage:—"We made several unsuccessful attempts to run an anchor astern, but the sea was running too heavily, and as the ship continued to strike heavily against the rocks, she began to make much water")—I went in a boat with the captain to Cundar; that was not with the intention to fetch the Consul, but the Consul thought fit to go to the wreck with us; he examined the wreck—the ship struck at 4 o'clock in the morning—the boats were ordered to be got out about 8 o'clock.

Q. On your oath, were not the boats ordered to be got ready half an hour after the ship struck? A. The boats were ready, everything was ready for getting the boats out all ready—I may have said before the Magistrate "Half an hour after the vessel struck, the anchor was ordered to be taken out at the stern for the purpose of taking the vessel off"—I did not say that, that I am aware of—an order was given by the captain to clew up the sails immediately—no order was given to furl the sails at that time—I did not hear the captain give an order to furl the sails, and caution the men who went up the rigging to be steady and careful, or they might be thrown overboard by the heaving of the ship—I did not see the captain come out of the cabin in his drawers; he had his clothes on—I heard him say, "Good God, boatswain; what is this?"—that was after the ship had struck—I did not see him at that time, but I heard him say those words—I have said before to-day that the captain told me the ship was the fleetest in the Baltic, and that he was the best navigator in the Baltic—I said it

at the Mansion House—I swear that he did tell me so; I have before used the expression, "Now carpenter, between you and me and the water-tank, you must say nothing of this"—I swear that I have used that exact expression; I paid it at the Mansion House in my deposition—the boats were only out ten minutes; they were not out three quarters of an hour or more, not to my recollection; it might be as much as fifteen minutes, but not more, I am certain—I was in neither of the boats—I could not say how many persons there were in the long-boat where the anchor was—I think there were four in the jolly-boat; I don't recollect seeing the captain bring up a new piece of rope for the purpose of assisting in getting the anchor out—I recollect a rope being passed over the side, and lending a hand to put it over into the long-boat—it was a warp; I could not pay the length of it.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. You say that this protest, which you all signed, was read over to you? A. Yes; I don't know the name of the man who read it over; he was a foreigner; a Russian, or something—he could talk English pretty well fur a foreigner, but I did not understand properly everything he said—it was read over to us all together.

MR. SERJEANT PARRY. Q. Were you not repeatedly drunk on board the ship, and complained of fur being drunk? A. No; I always could do my duty—I was complained of several times for being drunk by the mate, not by the captain.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. When the protest was read over to you all together, did you sign it in order, the captain first, the mate next, or how was it done? A. Yes, that was the way it was done—I was about six months and a half with Captain White on the voyage to the West Indies—it was with the captain that I made the bargain for this voyage.

WILLIAM CLAY . I shipped on board the Snowdrop as cook and steward 1—I was awoke from my sleep at 4 o'clock, on the morning of 4th October, with the ship running on the rocks, and bumping occasionally—I ran up the companion before dressing myself—I saw reefs in front of the vessel, and on the right an island—I went down below again, and the captain, not knowing I had been on deck, said, "Turn out, steward, old boy; the ship is on shore"—I said to him that I was sorry for him—he said, "For why?"—I said it was a serious job—he told me to pack up his things, as he had 150l. worth in the state-room—I heard the men clewing up the sails at this time—I heard the carpenter tell the captain that the ship made no water, two or three times within about half an hour—I went down into the hold of my own accord to examine whether she was making water; I found her perfectly dry; that was about an hour and a half after the vessel had struck—she was then in an upright position on the rocks—I asked the mate if there was any tide flowed there, whether the vessel could be got off, and the reply was, no there was none—I do not recollect seeing Craig and the mate together—I saw Craig and the captain together in the cabin at 6 o'clock—I was there also—I was sent on deck by the captain with a mug of rum to give the men—I was absent on deck about ten minutes—I then went down into the cabin again, and went on packing up the things—Craig was still in the cabin when I went down again—I went in the jolly-boat—I think that was about 9 o'clock; I can't positively say the time—I went with the mate, one seaman, and two boys; we went to take the long-boat in tow, by rights, in point of fact, we never left the side of the vessel, only went a little way—the anchor was over the stern of the long-boat; it was not put into the water—when we were in the boat I remarked to the mate that the carpenter ought to have been sent into the boat in place of me, for he was more of a seaman than I was—he made no reply—I can't say particularly as to

the time we were before we returned on board the vessel; I suppose about a quarter of an hour—the ship was dry when we went back—I did not go into the hold; I passed the main hatchway, and I heard water rushing in; it seemed to be in the after part of the hold, and I told the captain—I said, "The water is coming in aft"—he said, "Never mind that, steward; go on about your work"—I went down into the cabin again—when I was there I heard a hammering, and a rush of water; I heard the hammering first—I had finished packing up nearly all the captain's things, and having his belt out, I went on deck to find him; he was in the hold at the time, and I went half-way down the ladder, and saw the captain standing with his back to me, and the carpenter standing sideways, by the pump-well—I heard the captain say something about making him all right, or words to that effect—I said to the captain, "Here is your belt, sir, you had better put it on"—he started, and looked confused at seeing me, and said, "Take it away, steward; I don't want it, "meaning that I could keep it—I then went back again into the cabin; the mate was there, lying on the after lockers—I believe we had two pumps on board—there had been no pumping up to that period; I never saw any pumping, only at the time the hold was being washed out—when I came to England I made a statements to Captain Downward.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT PARRY. Q. Had you heard of this Captain Downward before? A. Not until I saw the carpenter—I saw the carpenter after coming to England; he told me that I was wanted at Captain Downwards—I have not been earning my living since; I have been living upon what I was allowed by Mr. Downward, my regular wages that I got at sea, 2l. 8s. a-week—that includes board and everything—I have been doing nothing for the last eleven weeks—my wages on board ship ought to have been 4l. a mouth, but it was only 3l. 15s.—I was paid all I was entitled to before the wreck—the carpenter and I were not very intimate on board; we were not chums; we were not much together, because I never liked him; 1 swear that—I never used to drink with him; I used to give him his regular allowance when I was ordered to—I have been drunk, but not on board the ship—I was not ordered to leave Cronstadt by the Consul; I was not turned out of my lodging for being drunk; I will swear that—there was no complaint made at Croustadt about my being drunk; there was a complaint about my giving a boy a biding; that was all—I bad the captain's coat and telescope, and I returned them—they were not taken out of my chest—the telescope was given to me, and then the captain wanted it back again; that was at Revel; I took it back—the jacket had not been given to me; it was put away in my bag, but it was not stolen—it was put in there while we went on the mainland; it was lent me to keep my legs warm—the captain made no complaint about it—when he asked me for the telescope, I told him he had given it to me; he seemed to think it was because he was in a flurry, and I returned it; in fact, Mr. Sutton said if he was me he would give it back—I was in the jolly-boat; the carpenter was not in either of the boats, he was on deck—I suppose we were trying for about a quarter of an hour to get the long-boat out—I have said that I returned to the ship exhausted—I was exhausted, not with work, but with anxiety, seeing the ship in that position—I was hauled up by a line.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. When you left did the captain give you your discharge? A. No; he gave me back my recommendation.

FRANCIS BREWER . I was for a month boatswain of the Snowdrop—I have been boatswain of different vessels for the last five years—I joined the Snowdrop in September—on 4th October we had, I should say, fine weather—the

vessel drew about ten feet of water in ballast—I can't say what water there was on the rocks—I did not take any notice what height she stood—there might be seven or eight feet of water there, I dare say—on 4th October 1 was taking the captain's watch; it was a fine night—I got instructions from the chief mate, Sutton, which way to steer—he gave me those instructtions at midnight, 12 o'clock—he told me to steer east, half north—I saw a light on the starboard bow—I was directed to call the captain, when the light bore southwest—I should say the light was five miles off at midnight, as nigh as I could judge—at 3 o'clock in the morning the light bore southwest—I should say it was then about ten miles off—I went down, and told the captain; he asked what course I was steering—I said, "East, half north"—he gave no orders upon that—I had not been in the Baltic before—the captain knew that, by talking at different times—at five minutes after 4 I went down to Sutton; I called him, and told him it was eight bells, and his watch on deck—I also told him that the captain had not turned out, and that the ship was going six knots—he told me to go on deck, and haul the ship up a point and a half—I told him I had seen land on the starboard side all the watch; that would be to leeward—I then left him; as I was going up the cabin stairs the ship struck—I told the man at the wheel to put the helm down—the vessel bumped twice on the rocks, and remained fast; she was nearly upright—her head was E. N. E.—the captain then came on deck—he asked what I had done; I told him, "Nothing"—I told him I had called him at 3 o'clock, and he did not turn out—he said he perfectly understood that I did do so—all hands were called on deck, the sails were clewed up, and the pumps sounded—the carpenter sounded the pumps, and I heard him say to the captain that there was no water; I heard him say that twice; it might be three quarters of an hour between the times—the sea did not break over the ship—the boats were got out some little time after, I dare say about 5, or half-past 5, in the morning—they were got out by tackle, put over the side into the water—a man got in to make the line fast to them as soon as they were over the side—I saw the jolly-boat got out; that was the first one that was got out—there was an effort made to tow the long boat; they tried to do it—that was after we got the anchor in, at 9 o'clock; that was the first and only time the anchor was got into the boat—I have been at sea fifteen years.

Q. Was there anything to your knowledge to prevent that being done sooner than 9 o'clock? A. Well, we done it as soon as we could; we were clewing the sails up, and the like of that, and getting things ready—the jolly-boat was manned with four hands, two boys and two men; the steward was one of the men and an able seaman—we tried to pull the anchor a-stern—we never got from the vessel at all—while we were getting the anchor out, I saw the carpenter pass his tools down the hold, and heave them on the ballast—they were an auger, a chisel, and a hammer—the carpenter went down the hold himself shortly after; that was about 9 o'clock—the ship was making no water before that—at that time the captain was in the fore-hold with me, getting the warp ready—that was after I had seen the carpenter go down—the captain remained with me a quarter of an hour—the mate, I believe, was in the hold at that time, because I know he followed the carpenter down—the pumps were not used at all—after I came out of the long-boat, I heard the carpenter report that there was twenty inches water in the ship; that was about half-past 9; about three-quarters of an hour after I had seen him throw his tools down the hold—the pumps were not used after that—I was called down into the cabin: the captain, the mate, the steward, and carpenter, were there—I was asked to have

a glass of grog; I drank it, and came on deck again—the captain also asked me to get a boat's crew to take his things on shore—I got four hands, and we took the things ashore—they were four of the able seamen and myself—the same four able seamen could have pulled the anchor to sea—we left the vessel at 11 o'clock—up to that time there had been no pumping—the vessel was then lying nearly upright on the rocks—next evening at 8 o'clock I went to the ship, with the captain, mate, and some of the crew—there was no appearance of straining about the vessel; it was a very fine morning, and no sea on; it had been calm during the night—the water was then nearly up to the beams; nearly on a level with the water outside—we visited her next day, and every day—I afterwards went to Cundar and to Cronstadt, and when I returned to London, I made a statement to Captain Downward.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT PARRY. Q. You say that the water inside her on the second day was on a level with the water outside? A. Yes; there was about eight feet of water—we anchored once to the lee of Norgen Island under shelter, for three days—there were other ships there also—one vessel parted from her moorings there—I can't say where the wind was blowing from then—we left Norgen Island on the Monday morning; I don't remember the time, or the day of the month—we struck the next morning—we were not at all hard worked under the stress of weather that compelled us to put in at Norgen—our course was towards the Ogland light; we were steering east, half north—I can't say whether that would have brought us in a direct line with the Ogland light—I am certain I was steering east half north—the mate left; me at 12; I had the watch from 12 to 4—I was second mate as well as boatswain; the vessel was then under my command, subject to any order given me by the captain or mate—I bad never been in the Baltic before—the Stonescar reef lies very nearly abreast of the Ogland—I did not examine the chart; I have seen it lying on the table—I did not see the route marked out; upon it I had no business to do so, not even when I took the command—I should not make myself acquainted with the bearings from the chart; I should simply obey the orders given me—the crew altogether, including men and boys, consisted of twelve persons—the orders to get the boats ready were given at 5 or half-past, and we did all we could; we got them out—the anchor was slung over the stem of the longboat—there were four men in the long-boat—I was in the long-boat; I had the command—it was very important that there should be able seamen in the long-boat to drop the anchor, if she were towed across the stems of the ship, and also to pull as well—we did not pull the long-boat; it never left the ship's side—there was a sea rolling at that time, but not a heavy sea—in order to take the long-boat out, they must first pull her away from the side of the ship—one of the men, Jackson, had a bad finger or thumb, I don't know which—that would operate on his pulling—there was not enough warp on deck to take the anchor a stern—I do not know whether the captain went below to get some more—when we took the boat from the ship with the things, we went to leeward—we were rowing against the sea when we first left the ship, for a short time; that was not in the long-boat, but the jollyboat—I remember the Consul's coming on board—I did not know Captain Downward before—no one told me to go to him; I was fetched on the day I was paid off at Tower-hill—I was fetched by Mr. Downward's clerk—he came after me—I do not know anything of Lloyd's Salvage Association—I never saw any placards of theirs in any of the ports of England, offering a reward to any one who would give evidence of any destruction of ships at sea—no idea of a reward has ever entered my mind; that I am certain of—I have been merely paid my weekly money since I have been ashor—I have not

been earning my living—that has been the case for nearly two months—I had 4l. a month on board the Snowdrop—I am getting the same now, and 1l. for my weekly board—we do not all live together, the carpenter, the steward, and I,—we may see one another now and then—the carpenter lives in Princes-square—I live in Princes-square—I don't know where the steward lives—no one lives with me—I don't live in the same house as the carpenter—he lives at 26, and I live at 43—I don't see him every day—I have not seen him for this week past till to-day—I don't know Hemborough and Booth; not by name—there were two lads on board—I don't know their names—I know the carpenter's name and the steward's—both of the boys berthed in the half-deck, along with me and the carpenter—the steward had a berth of his own in the cabin—Mr. Downward has not sent me on any errands to see either of these boys, nor has the clerk—I have seen them—I knew they were coming to give evidence for the captain and mate—I saw them on Saturday night or Monday night—(Hemborough and Booth were here called in)—those are the two lads—I saw one on Saturday night and the other on Monday evening—I can't say how often I have seen them—I have Been them four or five times since I made my statement to Mr. Downward—I have not urged them to come to Mr. Downward and make a statement on behalf of the prosecution—I went once with Mr. Down ward's clerk to see the boys, but I had nothing to say myself—I went because I knew where they were—I have only been twice to the house—I have seen them in the street—I have not asked them to come forward and give evidence on the part of the prosecution, nor did the clerk in ray presence; I never heard him—I only went to see the boys—I was not at the house on Saturday night—I saw the smaller boy on Saturday round the corner of Fenchurch-street—I never said to him, "Say as little as you can against the mate, we don't want to hurt the mate"—I never opened my mouth about the mate—I said nothing at all to him about the mate—I can't say what I did say to him; I forget—I don't know of any other man from Mr. Downward that used to go and see this boy—I did not ask them to come to Mr. Downward's office and give evidence for the prosecution—I never asked them to come to Mr. Down ward's office; I am certain of that, nor had Mr. Down ward's clerk in my presence—I was in the room at the time—I could not say what passed; I swear that—it was not a very small room—I might have heard what passed at the time, but I could not say now; I forget—the clerk asked the boy whether he had been and seen the captain or not—he merely asked him how the ship was when she was ashore—he asked him to come up to Mr. Downward's office—you asked me just now whether I did not ask them to come to Mr. Downward's office—I have not seen any other witnesses besides these two boys—I have not been much about with the clerk; he is here—I don't know his name; I swear that—I have only been with him once—he came to me on Tower-hill—that is the young gentleman—I have not been about with Mr. Downward at all; never—he has never said anything to me about any reward—I do not expect any, that is the truth—before I sailed in the Snowdrop I had been two months out of employment.

Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. Q. Had you to get the hawser up from the hold? A. Yes; that was made fast to the anchor that we were to take out—the sails were clewed up; Sutton ordered that to be done—the effect of that would be to prevent the vessel going further on the rocks.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. You say that one of the sailors had a bad hand which interfered with his pulling? A. He was not in the boat at all—I was in the long-boat, the mate was in the jolly-boat steering, and the steward, two boys and an able seaman—I don't know the name of the able seaman—I

don't know who would give orders what persons should man the boats; it was not me.

MR. SERJEANT PARRY. Q. Did you sign the protest at Revel? A. Yes; it was read over by some German, I think he might be—he read it over in English, but he could not talk very good English—I took an oath—I had never done such a thing before, I never had occasion.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. You have been asked about a warp, and I think you said there was not warp enough on deck? A. No; there was enough on board—I don't know why enough was not put on deck—I have been kept ashore for the express purpose of being a witness.

WILLIAM MIDDLETON . I shipped on board the Snowdrop as able seaman—I recollect the ship grounding on the rocks—I was on the look out at the time—I saw the carpenter sound the pump three times—I did not hear him say anything after that, either to the mate or captain—I saw nothing done to the pumps at all—I was in the long-boat helping to make the anchor fast at the stern—I was afterwards one of the seamen who took the captain's things ashore—that was about 10 o'clock as nigh as I can say—it was blowing a steady breeze at that time—I did not see the carpenter with his tools anywhere after the ship struck—I did not see him at all—I was in the longboat getting the anchor fast—I saw him in the long-boat when we went ashore—I did not see him doing anything to the thole-pin.

JOSEPH BANTER . I shall be eighteen years of age next birthday—I joined the barque Snowdrop in London in September last—I remember the vessel anchoring off an island near Revel—I don't remember how long she lay there—I remember the morning the ship struck; it was on Tuesday morning—it was fair weather, a bright night—I went to my berth at midnight—I was not awoke by the ship striking, the boy called me—I went on deck directly—I heard the carpenter say once that she made no water; that was in the morning part; I only heard it once—I went up aloft to help furl the sails—I remember a warp being got out of the forecastle, and an anchor put over the stern of the long-boat—at that time I looked down into the hold and saw the carpenter, and either the mate or the captain; I can't say which—they were on the starboard side abaft the mizen-mast—there was no, water in the hold then—I saw the carpenter come out of the hold; he had some tools in his hand, and they were wet—I afterwards looked down into the hold and there was water there—I got into the jolly-boat for the purpose of pulling out the long-boat to drop the anchor—the Captain ordered me to do that—Sutton, the mate, was steering—I told him that I could not pull very much, and the steward said he could not pull—it was a pretty heavy sea for a little boat, but nothing to speak of on board ship—I Was not afraid—the boat got as far as the stern and then came back—I did not see the pumps used.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT PARRY. Q. Where were you standing when you say you saw the carpenter and the captain or mate? A. At the after-past of the after hold—they were standing abaft the mizen-mast on the starboard side—I have never had any quarrel with the mate that I am aware of—he has had occasion to chastise me—I know Captain Mainland—I went to his house—I was asked by him to make a statement of what I knew of this matter on behalf of the captain—I did not say I would not, that I did not care about the captain, but that I was resolved to be revenged on the mate—I said "I have received money from Lloyd's agents to be a witness for Lloyds', and as the mate has had several revenges on me, I should like to have revenge on him, "hut since that I have looked over the matter and seen I

was in the wrong about the mate chastising me—I have received money and have been kept like the other witnesses by Captain Downward—I have had 25s. a week to pay my board and lodging—my wages on board were 30s. a month; I had been to sea before—I was a boy on board.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. You boarded on board, of course? A. Yes—the 30s. was not exclusive of my board—Mr. Downward was the first person I communicated with—the carpenter came for me to go there—the mate had chastised me for something that occurred on the island.

HERBERT BRAY . I am an underwriter in the office of the Australasian Insurance Company, Old Broad-street—an insurance was effected in our office on the hull of the Snowdrop—this is the policy—it is dated 6th September, and is for 500l.—it is an open policy, 50 per cent, has been paid on it.

CYRIL WRIGHT . I am a clerk in the Alliance Insurance Office, Capel-court—the Snowdrop was insured in our office for 500l. on 9th September—this is the original policy (produced)—375l. has been paid upon it.

THOMAS BLENKINSOP . I am a clerk in the office of the New Commercial Insurance Company—this policy for 500l. was effected in our office on 7th September on the Snowdrop—75 per cent, has been paid on it, 375l.

CHARLES FREDERICK EATON . I hold a sub-appointment in the office of the Board of Trade—I have the certificate of registry of the Snowdrop, and the articles of agreement and the log-book of the voyage—she is certified as a British vessel of 396 tons.

The following Witnesses were called for the Defence:—

JAMES HEMBOROUGH . I now live at Mrs. Garraway's, 7, Prospect-place, St. George's-in-the-East—I am sixteen years old—I shipped on board the Snowdrop in September, 1864, on a voyage to Cronstadt—I remember the time when she was wrecked—for some days previously to that the weather was not very good; there were head winds—we were obliged to anchor—the captain was on deck night and day, part of that time—I was in the watch on the night the vessel struck—it was our watch from 12 till 4 in the morning—the boatswain, Brewer, bad charge of the vessel during that watch—I held the reel for the purpose of ascertaining the speed of the ship during the watch—I don't remember how many knots she was going exactly; I think it was seven—the yards were squared about ten minutes before 4—the boatswain ordered that, the wind being more aft—it was a dark night—I was on the look out—it was my duty at 4 o'clock, eight bells, to go below and call the carpenter and Joseph Banter, on the aft deck, and as I was going down the ladder I was knocked right down—I called the carpenter and Banter—the carpenter said "Good God, what is the boatswain doing?"—directly I got on deck the mate ordered the sails to be clewed up—before that I heard Middleton say, "Here is an island on the starboard bow"—the ship struck just after that—it was after she struck that the mate called out to have the sails clewed up—they were clewed up directly—while it was being done, I saw the captain—he ran forward with a lamp or lantern to see what rocks they were—the sails were furled after breakfast—we had breakfast just after 8 o'clock—the wind had effect upon them when they were clewed, but not near so much as before—clewing means tucking them up by pulling the ropes loosely up—that can be done almost in a moment; furling takes a long time—it was quite dark then—the captain ordered the tackles to be rove for getting out the boats—he assisted in that himself—he did everything that was necessary that he could do; he worked with his own hands along with the crew—it took about an hour or two to get the boats launched—the ship was bumping every

sea—she was lifted up and down by the bumps—it was a violent bumping—when the boats were got ready, they were preparing to get the anchor into the long-boat—the hawser was got from the forecastle—the captain first proposed it—he went down and began about it first, and then we went and helped him—the long-boat and the jolly-boat were launched—I got into the jollyboat with the mate, steward, and Banter—the anchor was put into the longboat—we pulled to get away, that we might pull the long-boat astern—we were nearly half an hour engaged in doing that—we were not able to get adrift, there was too much sea on—there was sea, swell, and surf; if it had not been for the sea, we should have been able to tow out the long-boat with the anchor—after trying for half an hour we pulled back to the ship—there was one of the thole pins broken, and the carpenter had to get it out and put a fresh one in—he got it out with tools—there were two or three tools passed into the boat to him—I did not notice the tools—in the longboat there was Barton, Middleton, the carpenter, the boatswain, Booth, and Hocker; the captain and a coloured man named Jackson were left on board the ship—Jackson had a gathering on his finger, and was not able to do much; they were the only persons on board when the boats were manned—I did not hear the steward say anything to the mate about the carpenter not being in the jolly-boat—he was frightened at being in the boat—the ship was bumping forward—while we were in the boats we could see her lifted up and bumped down—in the course of the morning the boats were manned and the things taken ashore to the island—Craig was not sober that morning—the steward said something to me; Craig could not hear him—the steward showed me a pint bottle that was in the cabin; I don't know what bottle it was; it was empty—I left the ship in the evening—we were on the island that night—next day we went on board again—on looking into the hold I could not see the ballast, the water was up to her beams—during the whole time we were on the island the boats were passing to and fro from the ship, taking the property from the ship to the island—the crew took every-thing they could that was available to the shore for safety—we went to Revel—at Cronstadt I heard the mate say to the carpenter that he had better be paying him a little of the money he owed him than getting drunk so—the carpenter said that was an insult—the mate said he would take the coat off his back, and then they went into some private room by themselves and I did not hear anything else, but when the mate came out of the room he came out with the coat—so far as I observed the captain did everything he possibly could to save the vessel and to save the property out of her.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. I should like to know upon what foundation you have formed your judgment; did you ever go a voyage before in your life? A. Yes—I went from Cardiff to Alicant, then to Shields, and then from Shields coasting, and then from Shields to Genoa, and back again—I first joined the sea about a year ago last July—I was a boy on board—I don't know what time it was that I went into the jollyboat to get the anchor out; it was just after breakfast—I had an oar, and was rowing—the mate had one, and the steward and Banter—the mate was steering with an oar—Banter, myself, and the steward were pulling—we were trying to pull the jolly-boat ahead, to pull the long-boat out—we found we were not strong enough to do it—there was only Jackson and the captain on board the ship at that time—we had a line fastened to the long-boat, trying to pull the long-boat out—there were six men in the long-boat.

MR. SERJEANT PARRY. Q. If it had not been for the sea would you

have been strong enough to take put the boat? A. Yes, if other persons had been in the boat besides us, I don't think they would have been able to do it, owing to the sea—the men in the long-boat would row as well as us—the jolly-boat was attached to the long-boat, and we pulled to get the long-boat from the side of the ship; having done that, the men in the long-boat would row—they had dipped their oars in the water—they had got a little way from the side of the ship and had their oars in the water; but still neither they nor us could get on, on account of the sea—it was necessary that a certain number of men should be in the long-boat to carry her out with the anchor—if it had not been for the sea, I believe that the jolly-boat and the long-boat could have got the anchor astern of the vessel; the sea was the only thing that prevented it—our crew consisted of twelve, the captain, the mate, the boatswain; Middleton, the carpenter, Barton, Hocker, Julius Booth, Banter, and myself—the boatswain was in the long-boat—I think he was the principal man there, but I am not sure.

JULIUS BOOTH . I belong to Hamburgh—I was an ordinary seaman on board the Snowdrop—when the ship struck I was down below, calling the watch—I ran on deck—the ship was stern on a rock—I thought at first it was a sea run into her, but when I came up I saw the land—the ship was going about seven or eight knots an hour at the time—I saw the captain on deck when I got up—he was in his drawers and shirt—he caught hold of the helmsman, and said, "God Almighty, where is the ship going to?"—he was frightened—after that I heard the captain and the mate give the carpenter an order to see what water there was in the ship—the first thing we did was to clew up the sails—I have been at sea about five years; that was the right thing to do—we did not take down the topsails; we clewed them up after we got the boats out—the captain afterwards gave orders to get the topmast down to lighten the ship, to get her off from the shore—the sails were furled after we had the boats out; we clewed them before—when we furled the sails it was getting break of day—as the men were going up to furl them, the captain said, use very careful, and hold yourselves fast, that you do not fall down, "because the ship jumped so much, she was striking on the rock so hard—the forepart of the ship was on the ground, on the rocks, and the stern in the sea—the sea was strong enough to lift up the ship—there was a good sea; the sea knocked against the ship; that was what made the ship jump so much—when it jumped up it fell on the rock—that was going on constantly, all the time after the wreck—the carpenter had been drinking a little that morning—I was in the long-boat, when I got into it, I noticed that a thole-pin was broken—I was going to pull the hind oar—a bolt and hammer was first handed down to me—we tried to get out the broken pin, but could not, and we sung out to the carpenter to come down and get it out, because we thought he could understand it best—he came down, and ho could not get it out with the tools we had in the boat; he sung out to one of the boys to hand him down a gimlet or something like that, to bore it out—it was a good big gimlet, bigger than my finger—the long-boat had the anchor in her, and the jollyboat was trying to take her from the side of the vessel, in order to carry her astern—I had an oar—we were all standing clear for a pull, but the first boat could not come out of the way, because it was too heavy a sea, and it was blowing too hard—everybody was in the two boats, except the captain and Jackson, who had a bad arm, and could not come down—we made a little way, but were not able to get clear—we were trying for about three quarters of an hour, or an hour—as far us I could judge, those who were in

the jolly-boat tried all they could—if there had not been a sea, they would have been able easily to take the long-boat astern—the cause was the sea and the wind, and it was full of rocks, we were frightened of the boat going on the top of one of the rocks; the sea was heaving the boat—I do not know whether there is any tide at that island—I saw the captain after the vessel struck—he worked very nearly the most of all of us—he appeared to work in a genuine way, anxious to do what he could—he did the best he could—I am sure he did all he could to try and get the vessel off the reef, and the mate was trying his best too—I was working with the carpenter that morning—we were all working together—sometimes he was alongside of me, and sometimes far off, but I could always see him—I never saw him go down into the hold—I remember our anchoring at Norgen island two or three days before the wreck—that was because there was a gale of wind right against us, and we could not get on—it lasted four or five days—during that time, the captain did all he could to keep his vessel safe—he only went to bed about 12 o'clock for a couple of hours; he was very tired—I know Brewer, the boatswain—he has been to my house four or five times—he never brought any one with him—yes, once he had somebody with him.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. What have you been doing since you came ashore? A. have been living in a boarding-house all the time—the captain's brother-in-law has been keeping me there—I have had no wages allowed me—I am to have 2l. 10s., what I bad before—I have been boarded by Captain White's brother—I got into the long-boat about 8 or 9 in the morning; Middleton was in first—we began to try to get it away from the ship about half an hour after that, about 10—I think the captain did everything he could—we tried to get the boat out after we had clewed the sails; that took about half or three quarters of an hour—between that time and 9, we were getting the boats out and doing the tackles on the yards, and all that; we were never all together on one place; one jumped here and another there—they got the boats out before 9—they did not put anybody into them till 9—I learnt that there was water in the hold when we went ashore with the first boat—it was about 8 or half-past 8 that we got into the long-boat for the purpose of taking out the anchor—I was not in the jolly-boat till afterwards, when we went ashore with the clothes; that was after 9 o'clock—we did not get ashore till about 10—it took a good long time to get there.

MR. SERJEANT PARRY. Q. Were any things taken on shore before you had attempted to get the long-boat out with the anchor, or was it after that? A. After that, after we had tried all we could to get the anchor out—the captain very nearly cried that morning; I cannot tell you in English what he said, he said, "Here we are with day coming; let us try and take everything, the best chance we can get; let us try the best we can"—I did not hear him say anything-about the ship being lost, or how it was lost.

JOHN BROWN . I live at 18, Star-street, St. George's-in-the-East—I know Matthew Craig, the carpenter—in August last he was staying at my house—I remember cashing an advance-note for him—I went to Gravesend with him, and went on board the ship with him—the captain and mate were both on board—the captain complained of his having detained the ship—Craig was on deck when I went down, and said I had brought the carpenter to the ship—I went and told Craig to go down to the captain; and when he came up, ho said the captain had called him everything—he said,

"Never mind, Mr. Brown; d—the old tub; I shall be one with them yet"—he said he was d—d sorry he bad come to the ship; that she was nothing but an old tub, and they were a bad lot—he said, "It will only be for three months, and you will hear from mo before that. I will be one with them"—I saw him again on his return; about a month ago, I suppose—he came about the ticket of a coat he had pawned—he said, "I have got plenty of money"—I said, "What for?"—he said, "Why, for scuttling the ship"—I said, "How did you come to do that?"—he said, "I did it by order of the captain and mate; I will call and pay you on Monday; the Insurance people will pay me handsomely"—he said he bad been to Lloyd's and reported it—I only knew him from the time the ship came to London.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. I suppose this was the first time that anybody so frankly told you he had scuttled a ship? A. Yes—I expressed surprise—I said, "How did you come to do it?" and he said, "By order of the captain and mate"—I said, "I think you did very wrong"—I asked him if the people were saved—he said, "Yes"—I asked him if he had lost all his clothes—he said, Yes, he had lost every thing—there might be something more pass; it was merely a short time he spoke to me on the case—he came in his shirt-sleeves, without a coat—I was astonished to hear that Captain White had employed him to scuttle the vessel—I said, "What put you to do such a thing? it was a very bad thing; you should not have done such a thing"—I did not say anything about the captain at that moment—I am a shipkeeper, connected with taking in cargoes—I keep a lodging-house—we have occasionally had one or two sailors, not constantly—I do not sell anything—I have no shop—I have a shop that I take sailors to; it is in the Highway—it is not my shop—I have no interest in it, not a halfpenny—it is an outfitter's—I take men there to get clothes, and to get their notes cashed—Mr. Garabridge is the name—I have no interest in that establishment—I have never got any commission yet—I have got an account open there, close upon two years, but no accounts settled.

JOSEPH HENRY TAYLOR . I reside at South Shields—I was for many years in the Merchant Service as a captain—I think I commanded somewhere about thirty years—amongst other parts of the world, I have been in the habit of navigating the Baltic—it is very intricate navigation at the latter part of the year when the days are short—I have been in Court and heard the evidence as regards the course the vessel was steering; it was a correct course—supposing the vessel had not struck on the rock, but had successfully passed Ogland, the navigation becomes much more difficult between that and Cronstadt, and in my judgment would require the constant presence of the captain on deck—he would have no other opportunity for rest than he had that night—the clewing up of the sails and getting out the anchor was the proper course to pursue; I don't know of any other—I do not think it was possible to get the boats out with the heavy sea there was, with the ship's company; I mean, not with that number of hands—doing their best, I do not think they could do it—the sea would be such that it would be impossible to pull a boat to windward, even without the anchor—it appears that the ship was going seven or eight knots; therefore there must have been a strong wind to drive the ship—from the bumping up and down of the vessel as has been described, I do not think she would be long before there was a breach in her bottom; it would depend on the nature of the ground she was on—I know Stonescar island—it used to be uninhabited

—it is somewhere about twenty miles from any place where assistance could be had—I have known Captain White all his life; his character has been good in every way.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. How do you think they got on the reef? A. I think, possibly, by some current, which is very variable at that season of the year—it is not a straight line from the island at which they anchored, to the reef; the course the ship was steered would take her a considerable distance off Stonescar—she might not have gone the course she was ordered to be steered; very likely the steersman might have made a blunder—it is evident the ship was not in the course she should have been.

COURT. Q. How far ought she to have gone clear of Stonescar? A. Fifteen miles I should think; I could not tell exactly; if she had gone the course she ought.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Could she have gone clear fourteen or fifteen miles? A. It is some time since I looked at the chart (referring to it); I should suppose she would have gone ten miles at least; she might have gone a little more—if a ship got on a reef at 4 in the morning, the first thing I should have done would be to clew up the sails; I would then make an attempt to get the anchor away—there would be no other means of getting a ship off than the way she got on—I should make that attempt by getting the boats out—I would have run a small anchor out first in the jolly-boat, if I could have got away, and fixed it—perhaps it would take longer than half an hour to clew up the sails; they would be in a state of confusion—it would depend upon the state of the weather whether they should have begun to get the boats out the moment the sails were clewed—daylight was coming on; I should think they would let the boats remain until daylight; I would have prepared for getting them out—ropes do not require much getting into order on board ship; they are always ready—the longboat would be on deck at the time the vessel struck—if the boat was not launched at once, they would prepare the oars, tholes, and such things—I should give orders to some of the officers to see that the boat was ready—whatever opinion I express would entirely depend upon the state of the wind and waves—supposing water gets into the hold; if there was any possibility of getting the vessel off I should try to pump it out—the anchor would be the first thing I should attend to; to launch the boats as soon as there was an opportunity, as soon as it was daylight; not pump—if they could not take the anchor out there would be no alternative; the ship would have to lie—I should not pump then, because it appears the water was coming in so fast—it is useless to use the pumps in some cases; if the sea was not coming in so fast then you might pump, but if it was coming in fast it would be useless to attempt to pump it out.

MR. SERJEANT PARRY. Q. Would the jolly-boat be on deck? A. It might be over the stern or over the quarter; I don't know where she was carried—that would require very little getting out—it would take a quarter of an hour or ten minutes to get the longboat out, allowing for the confusion—it would perhaps take some time to get the anchor over the side—I think it would be quite wise to wait for daylight under these circumstances; at least that is my opinion; when you are ashore you do not know the position they are in on board.

JURY. Q. Was east, half north, the proper course? A. Yes, I think as near that as possible.

JAMES YOUNG . I am a ship-owner, residing at South Shields—I own from

twelve to sixteen or seventeen ships—I have known Captain White from his infancy; his mother, his grandmother, and the whole family—he has always borne the character of an honourable, upright man—I know the Baltic, and I know Stonescar Island very well—there is sometimes a slight current there, but not strong—there is no rise and fall of tide—after leaving the island of Norgen, on his course towards Ogland, east half north would be as near a direct course as he could possibly steer—I think, as the witnesses have stated the wind was in the south, the captain could not have bad a better opportunity for taking a little rest than on that night, as he was going into a narrower channel after passing Ogland—the bumping up and down as described by some of the witnesses would, in my opinion, soon cause a hole in her; I should say in less than three or four hours—the pace at which she was going would indicate a good sea and wind—I have heard a description given of what the captain did; the getting out the jolly-boat and longboat, I think that was a right thing to do, as far as my judgment goes—whether they would use the pumps would depend on the number of persons there were to do it; in this case there were only twelve persons, and I think they were fully occupied the whole time in clewing the sails and getting the ropes and anchor into the boats, and such like—I don't think they would have much spare time—I think if there had been a few smacks near at hand, and forty or fifty hands, it might have done to use the pumps, but not with the number there was—the island is uninhabited.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Look at the chart, and tell me whether, from the island, east half north would be the proper course? A. Yes.

DAVID MAINLAND . I reside at The Grove, Stratford—I have known Captain White several years; his character has been first class—I have been a master-mariner—I never sailed in the Baltic—I know Stonescar Island—I have not been up the Gulf of Finland to Cronstadt in command of a vessel—my knowledge would be from maps, and generally—I have seen the captain's chart and the bearings he took at 8 o'clock at night—the proper course for him to take was east half north—he ought to have passed twelve miles from Stonescar.

COURT. Q. Is that what you know from reading? A. No; I know it by the chart.—if there had not been counteracting causes the ship would have passed twelve miles clear of the Stonescar light—there are several causes, currents and prevalence of wind might drive the ship out of her course; bad steerage might do it; I think that is very possible—they might have steered the ship half south instead of half north.—Adjourned, Thursday, February 2d, 1865.

WILLIAM PRICE GRAHAM . I am a master in the merchant service—I was in the Gulf of Finland in October last, in the neighbourhood of Stonescar—prior to arriving there we had variable weather, and fresh breezes occasionally—I passed Stonescar on the 5th—I saw a vessel ashore on the reef there—at that time the wind was quite fair for sailing towards Ogland, and the day previous also—the night previous we had a chop of wind round to the eastward—I was off Norgen Island, and we met with an easterly wind there, and had to tack three or four times—when I saw the vessel on the reef, she was heading to the east, standing upright—I think I was about twelve miles distant from her—I first became acquainted with Captain White in October, 1863—his character is one of the highest that I ever met with in the profession.

WILLIAM DOUGLAS LAMB . I am a shipbroker in the City of London—I produce the original charter-party of the Snowdrop—I chartered her in my professional capacity—I have known Captain White as far back as I can remember; his character is first-class—(The charter party was dated 1st September, 1864, by which it was agreed that the ship was to sail to Cronstadt in ballast, and there load a complete cargo in grain or seed, to be taken at the merchant's risk and expense at a freight of 3s. per quarter, and proceed to London, or some safe port on the east coast of Great Britain.)

COURT. Q. What freight would she earn under that charter-party? A. She could not have made less than 700l.; she might have made a little more.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. That is, of course, supposing she got a full complement? A. Which the merchants were bound to give her.

WILLIAM WHITE . I reside and carry on business at Newcastle-upon-Tyne—in shipping I am a partner with other gentlemen; in my business, as a shipbroker, I am on my own account—I was part owner of the Snowdrop; I had' one-third of her; Mr. Robert Rowell and Mr. Johnson, who are here, had the other two-thirds—we purchased the vessel in June, 1863, in London—she cost 2, 125l. in London, and we then coppered her at Shields, which cost 420l. more, making her first cost 2, 600l., with the expense of taking her down from here—after repairing her I appointed my brother, the defendant, to the command—this (produced) is the contract for the purchase of the ship—she first traded to the Mediterranean and Cuba—we only had her two voyages; this was her second voyage—she left London in September for Cronstadt, in ballast, to bring home grain, under the charter-party that has been produced—we insured the vessel for 2, 000l.—we were our own underwriters for 500l.—we had the option of doing 500l. more with the same underwriters in Newcastle; they said they would do the 2, 000l. at 6 guineas per cent, but if they did 2, 500l. they would charge 8 guineas per cent., and we preferred to run the risk ourselves—I am not speaking of the freight, but of the ship—the freight was not insured—I have known my brother all his life; he has always borne the very highest character for honour and integrity.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Who keeps the log; I suppose the mate; does he not? A. I don't know—(looking at it); this is the captain's handwriting—I don't know when it was made up—it is the log of the last voyage—I see the name here of "Matthew Craig, carpenter, "and the letters, "v. g."—I believe that means "character very good;" I have no doubt of it; but whether that is for the previous voyage to Cuba or not I do not know; he was with my brother twice—this is the first time I have seen it—here is one name marked "g" only, not "v. g."

Q. You heard of this vessel being on the rock, did you not, before hearing of her total loss? A. It was telegraphed to us from the Consul that the Snowdrop was wrecked on Stonescar—I never expressed great anxiety lest it should not be a total loss, inasmuch as we were only insured against a total loss—we were not insured against total loss; I did not express great anxiety—(looking at a letter) this is not my handwriting; I never saw it before—I was not very nervous for fear she should come off, as she was only insured for total loss—I never expressed anything of that kind; that I swear solemnly—I will swear I did not tell my mother so; nothing of the kind.

ROBERT ROWELL . I am a merchant at Newcastle-on-Tyne—I was partowner in the Snowdrop—she cost 2, 125l., and the dock bill at Shields—I have only known Captain White since he joined the Snowdrop.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Was she a new vessel when you bought her? A. No, nine years old, or eight and a half—she was just off the first letter; she is now about ten years old—she had just come out of dock here—she was a Mediterranean-going ship.

JOHN GEORGE JOHNSON . I am a merchant, of Newcastle-on-Tyne, and partowner in the Snowdrop to the extent of one-third—I have only known Captain White since he joined the Snowdrop.

COURT. Q. According to the evidence the ship was a total loss, and one underwriter paid 50 per cent, and another 75? A. I suppose that was according to their own arrangement.

Q. Why did you arrange to take less than 100 per cent. on a total loss? A. I believe these things are often settled in that way.

MR. SLEIGH. Q. Was that merely a payment on account? A. Merely on account.

COURT TO WILLIAM WHITE. Q. Why did you not insist upon a total Joss? A. We did, and the underwriters accepted as a total loss, but they were selling the stores of the vessel, and the account of savings had to come home, so that the underwriters might give credit for their proportion, and they paid that 75 and 50 per cent. on account, because I was going into another purchase; and when that account came home they would pay the balance—I mean that they are still our debtors for a total loss until the savings come home.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Were you part owner of a vessel called the Antelope? A. Yes, Mr. Rowell and I had the Antelope between us—she was lost, totally; she foundered.

MR. SLEIGH. Q. When was that? A. She was lost, I think, in 1863—the underwriters paid the insurance.

COURT. Q. You must be in error about this policy; look at the receipt upon that policy for 500l. (the National Provincial)—that is a receipt for 375l. is it not? A. Yes; that is signed by my clerk, but they are debtors to us yet; it is not settled—I think it is the custom of the trade on policies they always hold the stamped policy when they give a receipt—it is the custom to take the receipt on the stamped policy if they give you part, and hold it themselves.

JOHN ORMSTON . I am one of the Tyne Commissioners, and ex-sheriff of Newcastle—I am considerably engaged in the shipping trade, and have been so for the last forty years—I am conversant with the practice that is adopted in the payment of losses under policies—I have heard Mr. White state that it is a general practice to indicate the payment in the policy; that is so, more particularly when there are some returns to come from the wreck, when the nett proceeds have not been received by the owner, the underwriters only pay a portion of the amount insured till that is recovered—with regard to what appears on the face of the policy in the shape of a receipt, that is quite in the ordinary practice—I have known Mr. White since his birth, I never heard his character for honour and integrity questioned in the slightest degree; on the contrary, I have always looked upon him as a very promising fine young man in all his transactions—he has shown himself a good child to his parents, inasmuch as he has given almost all his earnings to them.

Four other witnesses deposed to White's good character, and two witnesses to that of Sutton.


NEW COURT.—Wednesday, February 1st, 1865

Before Mr. Recorder.

30th January 1865
Reference Numbert18650130-255
VerdictGuilty > with recommendation

Related Material

255. WILLIAM LEWER (33) , Stealing 1 piece of paper and 5l. in money, the property of John Waller.

JOHN WALTER . I live at Southampton—on 14th January I was in London—the prisoner was fore-cabin steward on board the boat I came from Haarlem in—ho promised to go with me to show me the way to the house of a man who had taken my bag the day before—I went with him to Dulwich, and afterwards came to London, and went in a cab with him to Thompson's boarding-house—I had very foolishly given him my purse, through having taken too much drink, and when I got to the boarding-house I found a 5l. note was missing—I accused him of it—he denied it, and Mr. Thompson sent for a policeman who searched him, and found it on him.

Prisoner. You gave me the purse and the papers to take care of; I did not know there was a 5l. note—when I gave him the purse he said, "Where is the 5l. note?"—I said, "It is either in the purse or on my person." Witness. That is not true.

FREDERICK THOMPSON . I keep a boarding-house on Tower-hill—Walter and the prisoner came to my house, and after they got into the bed-room Walter accused the prisoner of having a 5l. note—the prisoner denied having it—he said that if there had been a note in the purse it would be there then—Walter still said that he had lost it—the cabman had to be paid, and a 5s. piece was tendered to him to pay it—he returned 1s. 6d—when I got down stairs I saw the prisoner with 12s. or 14s., a handful of coin, which he took out of his pocket—I saw the 5l. note found, and heard the cabman remark that he had made a fine day of it—the prisoner said, "Yes, he is a fore-cabin passenger, and goes away to-morrow."

ADAM CARR (Policeman, H 40). I was called to take the prisoner—I asked him if he knew anything about the note—he denied all knowledge of it—I asked if he would have any objection to my searching him—he said, "No"—I put my hand in his pocket and found a 5l. note, and the receipt for a registered letter, which the gentleman identified.

Prisoner. Those were the papers the gentleman gave me to take charge of.

The prisoner produced a written defence, stating that he accompanied the Prosecutor in a cab to Dulwich, that he asked him to take charge of his money and papers, that he did not know that there was a 5l. note there, and was given in charge without having time to search for it: but that he said, "If you gave me a 5l. note, it is either in the purse or on my person."

COURT TO JOHN WALTER. Q. Where was the 5l. note? A. In the purse, placed in the inner compartment, and although I was decidedly tipsy at the time I gave him the purse, I was perfectly able to look after myself—when I asked him for the purse I found it was not there—the receipt for the registered letter was in my purse with the 5l. note.


Recommended to mercy by the Jury on account of the temptation.— Confined Three Months.

30th January 1865
Reference Numbert18650130-256
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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256. SARAH BROWN (27) , Stealing 7l., the property of John Parker, from his person.

MR. PLATT conducted the Prosecution, and MR. H. PALMER the Defence.

JAMES PARKER . I am a contractor for old buildings—on 28th January, about 6 o'clock, I met the prisoner in Bishopsgate-street—I was with a friend and told him to wait while I went into the market to get a bit of meat—

the prisoner said, "This is the nearest way, "and followed me up the court—I found it was not the way, and tried to go back, but she got in the way, put her hand in my pocket, and took seven sovereigns and a half out—I had 10l. there; nine sovereigns and two half-sovereigns—I am perfectly sure it was safe three or four minutes before—I threw her down on the pavement, and struggled with her to get the money from her hand, but a man hit me on the back of my head—I opened her hand and took a half-sovereign out—another man then hit me on the back—they were close to her—I called for a policeman and gave her in charge—the two men then ran away, when the crowd said that the police were coming—I never let go the prisoner, and am sure she is the woman—she said that it was a sovereign that I gave her—she afterwards told the policeman it was a half-sovereign, and when she got to the station she said it was sixpence—I was sober; I knew what I was about well.

Cross-examined by MR. PALMER. Q. Were you quite sober? A. I might have had a glass of ale that afternoon, or two or three glasses; it was not four glasses—I had no spirits—I got the 10l. from Mr. Sharp, of Westminster, for work I had done, and had to pay some of my men out of it—the prisoner left 2l. 10s. in my pocket—I met her about 6 o'clock—the money was loose in my pocket; there was no silver mixed with it—I had a dispute with a woman in Bishopsgate-street, about ten minutes to 6 o'clock, about some money which I owed her, and when I left her the prisoner spoke to me directly—I did not pay the woman; I do not know whether the prisoner knew her—it is not five minutes' walk from where I met the prisoner to Billiter-court—we went down together, because she said that it was the nearest way—I threw her down while she had her hand in my pocket, got hold of her hand, and held her all the time, she had hardly time to get it out—I did not see her open her hand—three halfpence and a farthing were found on her, which did not belong to me.

MR. COOPER. Q. I understood you to say that you took a half-sovereign out of her hand? A. Yes; I swear I never saw her open her hand till I opened it—I know the other woman well, and have dealings with her.

GEORGE CALLARD (City-policeman, 599). I was called to Billiter-court, and Mr. Parker gave the prisoner into my custody for taking 7l. 10s. out of his left pocket—he said that he had taken a half-sovereign from her hand—she said, "It is lies, that was a sovereign you gave me"—he said, "It was a half-sovereign I took from your hand"—when she got to the station she said that it was a sixpence.

GUILTY .**— Confined Fifteen Months.

30th January 1865
Reference Numbert18650130-257
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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257. ALICE WEBB (22) , Burglariously breaking and entering the dwelling-house of Sarah Luscombe, and stealing therein 8 dresses, 7 sheets, and other articles, her property. Second Count, The dwelling-house of Richard Beynon Williams. MR. LANGFORD conducted the Prosecution.

SARAH LUSCOMBE . I am a widow, and live at 48, Church-street, in the parish of Stoke Newington—I am superintendent of the Home for the Reception of Fallen Women—the house is ruled by the committee, one of whom is Richard Beynon Williams—the prisoner was an inmate there twelve days—she left on 3d January—on the evening of the 4th the house was shut up and closed, and on the morning of the 5th, between 5 and 6 o'clock, I found the back part of the house open, which had been barred up—I think it had been entered by the kitchen-window, which does not fasten, but which was closed the night previous—I saw a foot-print which, I think, was a woman's, on a table under the window, and the same through a passage,

and through two rooms into the laundry; from there I found it the whole length of the garden, and across the next garden—the prisoner wears a peculiar-shaped shoe, a short shoe with a high heel, trodden down on one side, so that wherever she trod she left the impression of a misshaped foot—the print was precisely the same—I missed 7 shifts, 7 sheets, 2 bed-gowns, 4 pair of stockings, 3 sheets, 3 shirts, a jacket, and a knitted petticoat—they were worth about 4l.—these (produced) are six of the chemises.

MARY ROACH . I am a servant in Holborn—on 5th January the prisoner came to live at our place—she came between 5 and 6 o'clock, and said that she had no money, and left these five chemises with me to pledge—I pledged them in my own name, as she would not tell me hers—I gave her the ticket when I came back—I bought this shirt (produced) of her.

CATHERINE HENNESS . I live at 19, Newton-street, where the last witness is servant—I remember the prisoner coming to lodge there—she came into my mother's room, and asked me if I knew a dressmaker where she could get a dress made—I took her to Mrs. Hatchett, and left her there—I bought of her for 2s. this ticket of six chemises, pawned for 5s., and the day after she gave me this ticket of a bed-gown: she also gave me a white hand-kerchief.

BARBARA HATCHETT . I am the wife of George Hatchett, of 10, Newton-street, and am a dressmaker—on 5th January Mrs. Henness came to me with the prisoner for me to make her a dress—she brought this piece of cotton (produced) for me to make up, and then left—she came again about half an hour afterwards, and asked me to allow her to wash her face—she said that she was going to Temple-bar for some of her things—in about an hour she brought this bundle of clothes up (produced), and said, "Will you allow me to place these things in a corner of your room, as they are unsafe where I lodge, "and they remained there—I pledged a bed-gown and she went with me; this is the ticket of it.

SARAH LUSCOMBE (re-examined). I have looked at all the articles—they are part of the property which was lost that night.

Prisoner. Some of them are mine. Witness. All that did not belong to us have been taken out; all these belong to us.


30th January 1865
Reference Numbert18650130-258
VerdictGuilty > unknown

Related Material

258. ALICE WEBB was again indicted for stealing 1 rug, value 18s., the property of Henry Vickers East.

MR. LANGFORD conducted the Prosecution.

PATRICK DONOGHUE (Policeman, E 79). On 13th January, at 11 o'clock at night, I was on duty in King-street, Holborn, and saw the prisoner with this rug—I asked her what she had got—she said a rug which she had brought out for a muff, and that she brought it from her home in Newton-street, Holborn.

WILLIAM DAVIS . I am coachman to Henry Vickers East, of Queen's-mews, Bayswater—on 15th January, at a quarter to 11 at night, this rug was in the carriage—we were in the parish of Bloomsbury—I found the door open, and missed it shortly afterwards—I do not know when it was taken out; the carriage only stopped a few minutes to arrange one of the lamps.

GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months.

30th January 1865
Reference Numbert18650130-259
VerdictGuilty > unknown; Guilty > unknown; Guilty > lesser offence
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude; Imprisonment > penal servitude; No Punishment > sentence respited

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259. JOHN GAVIN (29), HENRY MONTAGUE (23), and ELLEN HARRINGTON (18) , Burglariously breaking and entering the dwelling-house of Thomas Kent, at St. James's, Westminster, and stealing therein 4 coats, 4 pairs of trousers, and other articles, value 30l. the property of Henry Gales. Second Count, feloniously receiving the same.

MR. COOPER conducted the Prosecution, and MESSRS. RIBTON and WARNER SLEIGH the Defence.

HENRY HART . I live at 4, Richmond-street, Peckham—on 7th January, about half-past 10 o'clock, I was passing through Golden-square—I saw a man and woman standing at the side of the square where No. 17 is—I cannot recognize them here—I saw two men come out of the doorway, one of whom had a white bundle—I watched them as far as Tower-street, Seven Dials, and left them there—the male prisoners are the men—I crossed them once, and I had seen them before—on the Sunday following I had some conversation with the constable Gordon.

Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. Do you mean to say that you know these two men? A. I have seen them on the Dials—I did not know their names—I have never spoken to them—I was at work that day at Mr. Bates's, who I have worked for five years—I have never given information to the police before—I suspected that something was wrong, but saw no policeman the whole way—they went down Tower-street, I left them at the corner, and did not follow them any further—I did not think it worth my while to look for a policeman, and did not see one that night; I made a communication to one on Sunday night in Compton-street—he knew my name by seeing me at different places, and hearing me mention it in the street—he addressed me by name—he said, "Harry"—said, "I wish you had been with me last night when I was going through Golden-square, I saw something that I did not think was right and I watched them as far as Tower-street"—he said, "They are the very ones I think that I am looking after"—I said that I could identify the two men, as I had seen them on the Dials—the policeman did not see me again before I went to identify them; I got to the Court first—I had a summons; the policeman told me he had got the two men in custody who had committed the robbery, and asked me to go and identify them—I went and saw them in the yard with, I think, three more—these two were not close together, there was one in between them; the policeman I had seen on Sunday night was with me—I saw the door in Golden-square open, and saw the two men come out; I was within thirty or forty yards of the house; they walked away, and I followed them, because I saw a man and woman join them.

COURT. Q. Can you say that this is like the woman? A. I should not like to say.

WILLIAM GORDON (Police-sergeant, C 33). In consequence of information I received from Hart, I went to Crown-street, on Tuesday evening, the 10th, and saw the three prisoners and another man—I watched them; Montague had a bundle under his arm—they went to the private door in the archway of No. 24, but the man who is not here did not go in—I was lying in a doorway opposite, and about 11 o'clock, saw the two male prisoners come out—Gavin returned almost immediately, and went into No. 24—Harrington came to the door and answered him, and Montague stepped to the top of the street under the archway—I heard one of them, Gavin I believe, say, "I will be at the corner of the Dials"—Harrington then came out and walked down Crown-street, and the man in front of her—soon afterwards Davis came and spoke to me—I got up, Davis stopped the woman, and the two men took to their heels, and ran into Seven Dials—I lost sight of them, and returned to No. 24—I gave two raps, the

same as I saw Gavin do at the door, and they were answered by Harrington's mother—I went to the first-floor front, and found a bundle of clothes containing three coats, a cape, four pairs of trousers, a railway-rug, counterpane, dressing-case, and other articles which the prosecutor has identified.

Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. What night was this? A. Tuesday, 10th January—it was on the Tuesday before that I had seen Mr. Hart—I have known him two or three months, but not intimately—I never knew him to give information to the police before—I know where he lives, but have never been to his house; I have been to a public-house with him, not more than once or twice, and had a glass of drink—I did not do so on the Sunday night—he gave me a description of the men, and in consequence of that description they were arrested—I asked him if he should know them again—he said, "Yes, and that one wore a moustache, and the other was a broad-faced man; the third man he could not identify—I knew them without his description—I suspected they were the men from their agreeing with his description—I never heard Hart called the "policeman's nose"—he never gave me information in his life, and I never heard that he gave information to the police before this time—he is a plumber and painter—I told him I had got the men in custody—he was unwilling to come, and I applied for a summons—I did not point out these two men to him; he was before me at the station—there were three or four other prisoners there, and he picked the prisoners out.

Cross-examined by MR. W. SLEIGH. Q. You say that you saw the woman's mother; do you know her to be the mother? A. I cannot say, but she goes by the name of the mother.

HENRY DAWSON (Policeman, A 301) At half-past 10 o'clock, on 10th January, I was in Crown-street, and saw Harrington leave No. 24—she went down Crown-street and towards the Dials—I stopped her seeing she had something under her large cloak, and asked what she, had got—she said, "My things"—I said, "What are you going to do with them?"—she said, "To take them to a woman in the Dials; I do not know her name, if you come with me, I will show you"—I found nine sheets under her cloak—going to the station she said that a young man gave them to her to carry, and was going to give her a shilling, and he ran away just as she came out, and she did not know his name.

Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. Do you know Hart? A. I have seen, him about, but never spoke to him before—I have never heard that he is in the habit of giving information to the police.

Cross-examined by MR. W. SLEIGH. Q. Did the woman give any description of the man who had given them to her? A. No; there was no man with her—I have seen her before.

WILLIAM ACKRILL (Police-sergeant, F 15). From information I received, I took the two male prisoners at a public-house at the corner of Tower-street, Seven Dials, on Thursday, the 12th—I told them I wanted them for a robbery in Golden-square—Gavin said, "Who told you?—I said, "Gordon told me he wanted you"—he said, "All right, give me fair play"—I took him to the station.

Cross-examined by MR. BIBTON. Q. Did Gordon mention this woman to you? A. No; he said, "I want 'Scotty' and the 'Countryman'"—Gavin's nick name is Scotty, and Montague's is, "The Countryman"—I know Hart—I never heard him called "The policeman's nose, "or heard of his giving information to the police before.

HENRY GALES . I lodge at 17, Golden-square, on the first floor—on 7th January, I went out at half-past 7, I returned at half-past 10, and missed coats, trousers, waistcoats, and other articles, to the amount of 40l. which were all safe when I went out—I have recovered about two-thirds of the property—here is one sheet with my name on it.

ELIZA KENT . I am the wife of Thomas Kent, of 17, Golden-square, in the parish of St. James's—we let apartments—on 2d January, at half-past 9 o'clock, I went into Mr. Gales' room, and saw everything safe—the counterpane was on the bed, and I touched this wrapper which was there—the outer door, leading to the street, was fastened by a latch, to open with a latch-key.

Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. Have you many lodgers? A. Yes; they all have latch-keys; we fasten the door after the last has come in at night—the lodgers come out and in between half-past 9 and 10.

GAVIN— GUILTY .*— Seven Years' Penal Servitude.

MONTAGUE— GUILTY .—He was further charged with having been before convicted in April, 1861, in the name of John Smith; to which he

PLEADED GUILTY>.**— Ten Years' Penal Servitude.

HARRINGTON— GUILTY on the Second Count; recommended to mercy by the prosecutor.—Judgment Respited.

30th January 1865
Reference Numbert18650130-260
VerdictGuilty > lesser offence
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

Related Material

260. MICHAEL RYAN (26) , Feloniously cutting and wounding George Haywood, with intent to murder him. Second Count, with intent to do him some grievous bodily harm.

MESSRS GIFFARD and BEASLEY conducted the Prosecution.

GEORGE HAYWOOD (Policeman, S 175). On 27th January, at a quarter part 11 in the morning, I was on duty in Euston-street, and saw the prisoner and ten or twelve others standing just inside the door of the Adam and Eve public-house—I ordered them all to move from there as they were obstructing the door—they all stepped out on the pavement—I told them they could not remain there, they must go over the way to the soup kitchen if they had come there for soup—they all left but the prisoner, who said he would see me b----before he left—I said that I must remove him if he did not, and put my hand on him to shove him into the road—he came on to the pavement and said, "You move me away from here again if you dare; I will stand here as long as I like"—the landlord came out, and asked me to remove the people, as he could not carry on his business—I told the prisoner he must go away, and he used very bad language, and said, "Now I will give you something;" and struck me on the face several times for five or six minutes—I closed with him, and we had a severe scuffle, during which somebody shouted out, "Mind, policeman, he has got a knife;" and I felt something sharp under my cheek—he was seized by several people, and with assistance, we got him to the station—I was cut through my cheek, and on the side of the nose—my cape was also scratched.

Prisoner. Q. Had you ever seen me before? A. Yes; at the soup-kitchen frequently, but I have never spoken to you.

JOSEPH KEEPING . I am the landlord of the Adam and Eve, Euston-road—the prisoner was standing on the step of my private entrance—I had occasion to ask him to get away twice before, and several others as well—when Haywood interfered the others all went away, but the prisoner said he would not go away, he had a right to stand there—Haywood pushed him, and he came back on the pavement; Haywood was going to push him again, bat he struck at him, and they closed together—I heard an alarm of

a knife—I collared the prisoner at his back, and held him while Holmes took the knife out of his hand.

THOMAS HOLMES . I am a hosier of Euston-road—I saw the scuffle between the prisoner and the policeman, and ran to the policeman's assistance—I saw the prisoner with a knife in his hand, lifted up in the attitude of striking—I rushed on him, seized him by the arm, and wrenched this knife (produced) from his hand—he was then taken to the station with assistance.

DANIEL FREDERICK KERRIDGE (Policeman, A 348). I was at the station when the prisoner was placed in the dock—Haywood charged him with stabbing him—he said, "I made four distinct stabs at your body, besides those on your face, as I wished to make short work of you"—after we got to the Police-court he said that if he had his hands at liberty he would murder the constable—he also said, "When I get my liberty I will find you out and do for you.

Prisoner. Q. I should like to know if I used that expression without provocation? A. I did not use any aggravating language to you.

The prisoner's statement before like Magistrate: "I intended to take the man's life; no doubt about that. I went to 45, Parliament-street to take Captain O'Brien's life. I would take any man's life who insulted me, and I would have taken the policeman's life had I been able to; no doubt about that. I am an inoffensive man if not meddled with."

Prisoner's Defence. It was snowing very hard, and I went into a public-house; the constable came up and ordered me away; I said, "It is very inhuman of you to order me away while it is snowing so hard;" he threw me down, and I hesitated whether to go back and return the blow; I went back, and he gave me another blow; I had no weapon with me, and I looked back to see if I could see one; I took my knife out, and I think in the excitement I was in at the time, this happened; the publican nearly choked me, and pulled the buttons off my shirt; they twisted my arms and used me in a most inhuman manner; the man who took me in custody said, "What a baby you were; if I had been you, I would have knocked his brains out; what a cowardly vagabond you must be;" the officer who took me said, "If I had the presence of mind, and had my staff in my hand, it would have been different;" he says that I made four plunges at his body with a knife—I had said that I would shoot Captain O'Brien, because I cannot express the torture he has put me to; I certainly did threaten to shoot him, and I will do it, but in this case I am not guilty; I had never been in the neighbourhood before, except for three minutes; I am sorry for it, and hope you will be as lenient to me as you can be.

GUILTY on Second Count.MR. GIFFARD stated that the prisoner had been sentenced to ten years' penal servitude, which had been commuted to four years through Captain O'Brien, of the Office of Prisons.

Ten Years Penal Servitude.

30th January 1865
Reference Numbert18650130-261
VerdictsGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentencesImprisonment; Miscellaneous > sureties

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261. ROBERT ATKINS (45) , PLEADED GUILTY to unlawfully demanding money, with menaces, of William Seaton Brown; also, to feloniously sending a letter to the said William Seaton Brown, threatening to murder him. Confined Six Months on the first indictment; and upon the second, to enter into recognizances and find sureties to appear and receive judgment when called upon.

THIRD COURT.—Wednesday, February 1st, 1865.

Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

30th January 1865
Reference Numbert18650130-262
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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262. ROBERT FITZPATRICK (39) , Unlawfully attempting to obtain 1l. in money and some tobacco from Sarah Ann Lewis by false pretences; Second Count, unlawfully attempting to obtain 3l. from John. Fitzgerald by false pretences.

MESSRS. GIFFARD, BEASLEY, and ORRIDGE conducted the Prosecution.

DENNIS POWER . I am the chief warder of Millbank prison—the prisoner was an assistant warder there, from February last up to the present time—in December we had a prisoner there of the name of John Knight—he was under this man's ward—each warder is supplied with a book of rules—this (produced) is the prisoner's book, and bears his signature—there was also a prisoner of the name of Garon—he was in quite a different part of the prison, not under the prisoner's ward—Garon and Knight could not get together at any time—I know the prisoner's handwriting—this letter (produced) is in his writing, and the two envelopes also.

SARAH ANN LEWIS . I am the wife of John Lewis, of 28, Bolton-road, Bayswater—in December last, I had a brother, named John Knight, who was confined in Millbank penitentiary—on 1st December I wrote and posted a letter to him directed to the prison, by the governor's orders—on 28th December the prisoner came to me at my house, between 7 and 8 in the evening—he brought two letters to me; the one I had sent my brother, and a note from my brother in pencil—these are the letters (produced)—I can't say whose handwriting the one in pencil is; I don't think it is my brother's; I don't know—the prisoner said he was an officer in the Millbank prison, and that he had come from my brother; that he had run a great risk by coming, and that I should see by the note what he required—he then handed the note to me—he said, "This letter will convince you that I have come from your brother"—my husband was there—he read the note, and went down to him to answer him—he told him he could not give the pound to him mentioned in that letter; and then the prisoner said, "You must send a note to that effect"—my husband asked him up stairs; and he said, You have got to write a note to your brother, to tell him you can't let him have a pound"—I said, "I thought it was against the rules"—he did not make any answer to that—he staid about a quarter of an hour or twenty minutes—we gave him no money, or tobacco, or anything; my husband said he could not afford it; he had just buried my mother—(The note in pencil was as follows;" My dear sister—I received your last kind and welcome letter, and was very glad to hear that all of you were in good health; and so am I, and I thank God for it; dear sister I am very sorry to say that I do not get half enough food to eat; but, dear sister, I have got this kind officer to come to you; I wish you to give him one pound and some tobacco, and then I shall be all right, and it will be a great comfort to me, because I may never have another opportunity of sending to you by this way. This man is very kind to me, and so, dear sister, as you should know that he is come from me, I send you this letter that you sent me last. If you give him it, what I have sent for to-night, I shall get it in the morning. So no more. Send me a note.")

Prisoner. Q. What date did the principal officer visit you? A. He came and fetched me down to the governor, at the prison, last Thursday week; you saw me there—the principal officer did not produce the note I wrote to my brother.

JOHN KNIGHT . I am a prisoner under sentence of five years in Millbank prison—I am twenty-four years old—the man at the bar was one of the warders who attended upon me—I remember receiving this letter from my sister, Mrs. Lewis; it came to me through the governor) in the regular way—I was allowed to keep that letter myself in my cell—I missed it on 15th January—I looked about for it, and not finding it, I made a complaint to Mr. Cosgrove, the principal officer, and to the governor—I did not at any time give that letter to the man at the bar, or to anybody else—I did not authorize him, or any one else, to take it anywhere—this note in pencil is not in my handwriting; no portion of it—I know nothing about its having been written—I did not authorize the prisoner to write it, or anybody else—I knew nothing about his asking ray sister for 1l. and some tobacco, before I was brought before the governor; I did not authorize him to ask for either; I did not know of his doing it till afterwards.

Prisoner. Q. What are you in your present position for? A. Robbing a dwelling-house in the daytime; housebreaking—I have been convicted of felony six times—I was eight and a half years old when I was first convicted—I had three years penal servitude before this five years; that was for robbing a dwelling-house in the daytime.

JAMES COSGROVE . I am one of the principal warders at the Millbank penitentiary—on the morning of 18th January the last witness made a complaint to me—I took him before the governor, and he repeated his complaint to him—in consequence of that I went to Mrs. Lewis, and got from her the two letters which have been produced; one in ink and one in pencil.

COURT. Q. Knight complained of the loss of his letter? A. Yes. JOHN FITZGERALD. I am a mason, 4n Brook's-road, Plaistow-park, Essex—I have a brother-in-law named John Garon—in January last he was a convict in Millbank prison under sentence; he is there now—I received this envelope addressed to me; in it was this letter and another envelope, which I addressed to the governor of Millbank prison again—I think it was on the 6th or 7th that I received it—I had written to my brother in prison before that; I had also visited him—the letters I had sent to him before went in the usual way through the post, addressed to him at the prison.

Prisoner. Q. Have you got the governor's note; the note which you received from him, which induced you to return the envelope? A. Yes; this is it (it was handed to the prisoner).

JOHN GARON . I am a prisoner in Millbank Penitentiary, under sentence of six years penal servitude—I never saw the prisoner in the ward I am in—I have a brother-in-law, John Fitzgerald—I never authorized the prisoner to write to him, in any way, nor anybody else—(letter read—"5th Jan., 1864. Sir,—I am requested by John Garon to inform you that he has applied for you to visit him, an order for which you will receive in a few days—he wishes you to send him 3l. in half sovereigns by return of post; the reason he wants it so soon is that he will be able to let you know when you visit him that he received it all right. When you come you are to ask him if he received your last letter, he will answer 'Yes,' by which you are to understand that he got the money all right. You will also write a few lines to him which I will hand him along with the money. You will under-stand that by sending this for your friend I run a very great risk, therefore, I trust you will follow the directions given, and all will be right with both of us. I enclose an addressed envelope, so that you can slip your note into it and there will be no mistake. Be sure and write by return of post and register the letter.—I am yours, &c. Robert Fitzpatrick, for John Garon."

(envelope read):—"Mr. John Fitzgerald, 11, Brook's road, Plaistow-park, Essex, "(envelope enclosed):—"Mr. Robert Fitzpatrick, 1, Grosvenor-street, Page-street, Westminster, London."(post mark):—"London, 6th Jan., 1865."I know nothing of that letter or the envelopes.

Prisoners Defence. I am undefended—It appears that it is a plot against me—there is not one word of truth spoken by either of those convicts—I received a note from Knight to take to his sister, the other one I got a copy of, not one word of it is my own, I got a copy of it from the prisoner—as to my former character I beg to hand in these papers.


A witness gave the prisoner a good character. Dennis Power stated that the prison authorities had reason to believe that the prisoner had been carrying on a system of traffic with the convicts' friends for some time, and to a great extent. Confined Eighteen Months.

30th January 1865
Reference Numbert18650130-263
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

Related Material

263. RICHARD CHARLES NEWBURY (38) , Unlawfully removing 160 brass plates and 36 copper plates after the date of his bankruptcy, with intent to defraud his creditors.

MESSRS. POLAND and BESLEY conducted the Prosecution, and MR. ORRIDGE the Defence.

JOHN DOWLER . I am one of the assistant messengers of the Court of Bankruptcy—I produce the proceedings in Bankruptcy against Richard Charles Newbury—after his adjudication I went to 4 and 5, President-street, Goswell-road, to take possession—they are two houses communicating one with the other—there is a back door from No. 5 into No. 4—I remained in possession from 17th March till 4th October—the bankrupt lived there the whole of that time and I left him there 3 on 4th October—when we leave the bankrupt in the house, we do not give the key up to anyone, simply go away—I was not aware of the removal of 160 brass plates on 8th April, or of the copper plates—I was not aware that Luck and Welsh and Chambers removed those things—it would be my duty to prevent the removal of goods from the house if I had known it—I remained at No. 4.

Cross-examined. Q. Is that the private house or the business premises? A. No. 5 was let off to lodgers—I remained in the premises where the stock was—I was in possession—it was an unusally long time to remain in possession—there was a dispute with respect to the property under a deed of assignment—the bankrupt's mother claimed the property—it was not until somewhere about October that the Court of Bankruptcy decided as to whom the property belonged—I always understood that the mother claimed considerable part of the working materials, an hydraulic press and plates, and everything connected with it—I was informed that these plates were part of the plates which belonged to the hydraulic press—the press was on the premises when I left—there was a man in possession on account of the mother as well as me—he was there when I went, and I left him there in possession of the property, the hydraulic press, cutting materials, and everything connected with it, under this deed of assignment—I saw the prisoner constantly about the place—Cutten and Davis were the auctioneers who were employed—a considerable part of the property was taken away by them for sale—I saw what they removed—I did not take every item down they removed a great quantity of brass and copper plates of a similar character to these (produced) belonging to the hydraulic press—I heard that the sale made by Cutten and Davis was forced, the things taken away and sold very quickly, and that they realized a very small sum of money.

MR. POLAND. Q. Was there a distress in for rent? A. Yes the

man I found in was under the deed of assignment—there was a distress put in afterwards which was delivered to the same man to hold—I know that was paid out—as to the plates belonging to the hydraulic press, I went by what the men informed me; I do not understand machinery myself.

JAMES COOPER . I am a solicitor at Billiter-street, City—I am the solicitor to the trade assignee in this matter, he acts with the official assignee—I am the attesting witness to this deed of assignment, dated 4th March, 1864, made between Richard Charles Newbury of the one part and James Barry, wholesale stationer, Queenhithe, and Henry Hayward of 31, Upper Thames-street—it is an assignment by Newbury for the benefit of his creditors—the arrangement under this deed was not carried out, it was thought right that a petition should be presented, and on 17th March there was a petition for adjudication by Edward Saunders on behalf of himself and partners—I am the attesting witness to that—the adjudication was on the same day—the amount of debts proved are somewhere over 8, 000l., I rather think 9, 000l., between 8, 000l. and 9, 000l.—the property was realized in the ordinary way, by sale by the auctioneers—the amount realized altogether is between 900l. and 1000l.—Messrs. Cutten and Davis sold the whole of the bankrupt's goods—the first sale was on llth May, I think, and the last in October—the bankrupt describes himself as a cardboard maker and a paper-collar manufacturer—he bad two places of business, 4 and 6, President-street, Goswell-road, and Helmet-row, St. Lukes—on 9th April an allowance was made to the bankrupt of 2l. a week—that was at the first meeting under the bankruptcy—on 12th May, when the first sale took place and money was realized, that payment was made to the bankrupt—I wrote a letter to Messrs. Cutten and Davis authorizing them to pay and it was paid—that continued till some day in October—after 12th May I paid it myself, personally—they paid 12l. up to the 12th for arrears, and I or my clerks paid the 2l. from that date up to October—the bankrupt himself was examined before the Court of Bankruptcy from time to time, I should think three times, since the adjudication in October—on 20th October Chambers and Luck were examined—until a few days before that I was not aware of the removal of these plates—the bankrupt's mother was the landlady of these promises, 4 and 5, President-street—there was a distress in for rent, that was paid either on 23d or 24th March—55l. was paid—the mother claimed some of the property in the house—the decision of the Commissioner with regard to the property was, that everything that was not fixed to the freehold passed to the assignees, and that certain things fixed to the freehold belonged to the landlord—he marked in a schedule what passed to the assignees and what passed to the mother—what passed to the mother did not include these plates, it could not, because at the time the Commissioner gave the decision we had never heard of these plates; no question was raised with regard to them—this prosecution is instituted by the creditors,

Cross-examined. Q. By how many of the creditors? A. I am only instructed by the assignee, Mr. James Barry of the firm of Barry and Hay ward—I am aware also that one other large creditor has approved of the proceedings since they have been commenced—one application was made to the Commissioner for his sanction to these proceedings, that was adjourned for consideration, and once adjourned afterwards—the Commissioner did not refuse his sanction, he said he would make no order at present—at that time the bankrupt had been given in charge and committed by the magistrate—no application was made to the Commissioner till then—he then said that as

the assignee had taken upon himself to give the man in charge, he would make no order until after the trial—an application was made at Worship-street for a summons, the magistrate said it was not the right Court, I must go to the Clerkenwell Police-court and give the man in charge—these proceedings have never at present had the sanction of the Commissioner—application was made in the proceedings, it would appear here—the comment of the Commissioner would not appear here—my counsel, Mr. Reed, told me it was adjourned, I was not in court at the time—there had been great dispute as to property claimed by the mother—it was fought most vigorously by Mr. Sargood and Mr. Reed—Mr. Sargood, on behalf of the mother, claimed part of the property—the Commissioner did not make an order, he was going out of town, told us to give him the brief and he would mark in the schedule what passed to the assignee and what passed to the mother—it went over some time, as Mr. Commissioner Goulburn was out of town—the decision was given by the Commissioner a day or two before 29th September—from the time of the messenger going into the house and the 29th September, this matter, as to whom certain property belonged, was in suspense, and that is why the messenger was so long in possession—I had a copy of the things claimed—it was produced before the Commissioner—it appears in these proceedings—the copy of the schedule is here, I read it through at the time—I have no doubt that it is correct—I find "hydraulic press and plates" as part of the goods claimed by the mother—there was an order for the sale of some horses; that was before the appointment of the trade assignee—the moment an official assignee is appointed, if there is anything that requires an immediate sale, like horses, they are sold immediately without an order—Mr. Saunders is here—there is no one here from Cutten and Davis.

MR. POLAND. Q. Was Mr. Barry a creditor of over 900l.? A. 950l. or 1, 000l.—he was the largest creditor—he is the person who immediately directed this prosecution.

MR. ORRIDGE. Q. Was there any valuation made of the estate? A. Not that I am aware of.

EDWARD SAUNDERS . I am a member of the firm of Saunders, Dyet and Saunders, of Cannon-street, West—I am a creditor of the bankrupt for 154l. 6s. 9d.—I am the petitioning creditor—I have his acceptance for 70l. 1s. (produced).

Cross-examined. Q. At what time was that owing? A. The balance 84l. 5s. 9d. at the end of January last year; it was for paper.

WILLIAM LUCK . I am an engineer—I was formerly in the service of Mr. Newbury—I remember the bankruptcy messenger taking possession of the premises at President-street—after that, on 25th March, I removed some brass plates, that was the first time, Good-Friday; Chambers assisted me—we put them under the floor of the glazing-room—Mr. Newbury told me to put them away—it took I and Chambers between two and three hours to put them away, we did not put them all under the flooring; we took some upstairs—about 160 brassplates, I think, were put away altogether—we did not shift the copper ones from where they were.

COURT. Q. Did you remove any of the floor boards? A. No; there is a place underneath the floor where a shaft runs, belonging to the machinery and we put them on that.

MR. POLAND. Q. Had you to put them under, one by one? A. Yes, we took them out again on the following day, not by anyone's direction—Welsh persuaded me to take them out—he said, "They look as if they were concealed where they are"—we took them out—about 5th or 6th April I took

some samples of these plates down to Mr. Attenborough's, the pawnbroker's—Mr. Newbury told me to do that—I was to see what I could get advanced upon them—I showed them to Mr. Cloud, the manager at Mr. Attenborough's—I won't be sure whether I told him how many I had got—he said how much a pound he would advance on them; I can't say what the price was—I went back and told Mr. Newbury how much I could get upon them, and afterwards, on 8th April I took about 160 of those brass plates and thirty-six copper plates down to the pawnbroker's by his direction—I put them into his horse and cart which he had not sold then—I and Welsh took them to the pawnbroker's—Mr. Cloud had them weighed and made an advance upon them of 16l., I think—he gave me this deposit note (produced)—I could not swear this is the one; when I got it I signed this, that is my signature, "William Luck"—I took the deposit note and the 16l. back to Mr. Newbury—this signature on 21st September is not my handwriting—I was examined at the Court of Bankruptcy on 20th October—I had nothing to do with the removal of these things from the pawnbroker's—(The deposit note contained the weight of the plates, 7cwt. 1gr., left on security of a loan of 16l., with power of sale if not redeemed within 6 months, it was dated 8th April, 1864.)

Cross-examined. Q. That is the note that you signed? A. Yes, Read: "8th April, 1864. I do hereby authorize the said Richard Attenborough, unless the 16l. and interest be paid to me the said Richard Attenborough either by public sale or private contract, to pay the expenses incidental to such sale and retain the said sum of 16l. and interest, if the same be not paid to me by 8th October"—I believed these things were the property of the bankrupt's mother—these plates were in use with the hydraulic press and the rollers—a press and rollers without these plates would be useless, nothing could be done—the bankrupt was in the country on Good Friday—I think it might have been the day before he left that he told me to put the plates away—from the time he told me to take them away till we put them under the floor I never had any communication with him—putting the plates under the floor was my own act entirely—they would not get knocked about there—we did not cover them over—the messenger was there in possession at the time—the bankruptcy never intimated to me that he desired to secrete those plates, or to conceal them in any way—the things were being shifted about the place—these plates are things which suffer from dust and scratches; if they become scratched it spoils them—they are employed for glazing—I believe the bankrupt depended upon his mother for support after the bankruptcy—when he told me to go down and pawn these plates, he said he had the permission of his mother—I took 164, I think, or somewhere about that—he did not give me any directions as to whose name they were to be pledged in—he did not tell me to pledge them in my own name—from the very first, for some two or three years I considered that these plates belonged to his mother, and to the press and rollers—there were other brass and copper plates about the place—we always had a large quantity about the place, they all belonged to the same machinery—these things were left until Cutten and Davis came in on 25th March, they sold nearly all that were left in the place—that was after 25th March—they took some things away before that.

MR. POLAND. Q. Where were these plates before you put them under the flooring? A. In the engine-room, the glazing-room was the proper place for them—we were not in the habit of stowing these plates under the flooring when the engine was at work—the plates I took to the pawnbroker's were

not new—I don't know that they were purchased in the previous October—they had been in use some time—I don't know whether you can call them nearly new, because you can spoil a set in a week—I can't tell you how long these had been in use, there are so many plates there—I can't say that the plates I took to Attenborough's came from the Ormiston Brass and Copper Company in the October previous.

COURT. Q. I understand that these plates you put under the floor were part of a lot more that were about the premises? A. Yes—these were in the engine-room—we have plate racks to put them in, we had not room in them and we put them under the floor, the engine was not at work at that time—we put as many under the flooring as we could, and put the rest upstairs.

EDWIN CHAMBERS , I am a card and pasteboard maker—on last Good Friday I was in President-street—I merely called round to see the men—I assisted the last witness in putting a quantity of plates like these underneath the floor—we were at work at it between two and three hours—we stowed away somewhere about 160 as near as I can recollect—I did not see Newbury after we had done that—in July last he spoke to me about going to the Court of Bankruptcy—I hardly remember now what he said, it is so long ago—he said something to me about going up to the Court for him, about moving the goods on the day after 25th March—he wanted me to say that I was there after 25th March, at Helmet Row, helping Cutten and Davis—he wanted me to say that Cutten and Davis were in possession after 25th—there was a dispute about it at that time—I said they were not there, I knew they were not—I said I should not go to the Court of Bankruptcy and tell a falsehood—he said he did not tell Luck to put the plates away under the floor, he should deny it, and if I went and said that I put them away, very likely I should get six mouths' for it—I told him that I should speak the truth if I was asked—on 20th October we were summoned to the Court of Bankruptcy and I made a statement with regard to these plates—Newbury was not present when I was examined—I saw him at the Court that day and saw him in the room after my examination was over—my evidence was read over in his presence.

Cross-examined. Q. Was it in July that he had this conversation with you? A. Yes, I believe it was—I did not see the bankrupt there when we put the plates under the floor—Luck asked me to do it—I saw the bankrupt the day before—he did not tell me then to make any concealment of the plates of any kind—I did not know of these things being his mother's property.

RICHARD HENRY CLOUD . I am assistant to Mr. Richard Attenborough, of 31, Crown-square, Finsbury—about 8th April the witness Luck brought me 7cwt. 1qr. of copper and brass plates—I advanced 16l. on them—there were several sizes, copper and brass—I gave him a deposit note for the property deposited—Luck brought it down in a respectable-looking tradesman's cart—I did not look at the name on it, there was another man with him—I believe I asked him his employer's name, but I don't know—he gave the address, "5, President-street"—on 1st September Mr. Newbury came down to me—he said the premises would shortly be required for a Railway Company, and he would renew the property for a month—that would make it to 8th November—there was a mistake in the date, the belief was that the property was out of time when he renewed it, it was renewed on 21st September for one month—the bankrupt signed this book, "William Luek"—he did not tell me his name was Newbury, Newbury's name was not mentioned,

I did not know who he was—I knew he was not the same party who deposited it, I thought as a matter of course that the transaction was all straight-forward—the plates were redeemed on 20th October, I do not know who fetched them away—there was a horse and a cart and a man—this deposit note was brought to me when they were redeemed—the money was paid and the goods given up—the first I heard of the name of Newbury was when this prosecution was instituted—I don't know bow many copper plates there were—they were all weighed together.

Cross-examined. Q. Let me look at your memorandum book, the renewal took place by mistake on 21st September, before they were due? A. Yes; they were then renewed for a month, and were redeemed on 20th October, just before the month was up—it is very seldom any information is given to me when a renewal is made.

PHILIP ORMISTON . I am book-keeper to the Ormiston Brass and Copper Company—I keep the day-book and the ledger—I received these two orders dated May 30th and June 4th from the bankrupt for five seta of brass plates—one is a substitution order, for a different sized plate—they were afterwards sent to the bankrupt—the invoice is in my hand writing—the five sets were all delivered at the some time—the invoice price was 59l. 10s. 10d. including 16s. for the two cases—I have examined all of these plates—there are five sets of thirty-two each, complete—I believe they are the plates supplied by our firm—I find thirty of each size out of one gauge, and the two others are extra stout, as ordered—the same size, but thicker, there are five sets of five different sizes—I believe they are used for glazing paper—we are creditors of the bankrupt's estate for 59l. 10s. 10d.

Cross-examined. Q. You are not the only makers of that sort of plate? A. No—there is no mark on any of these plates—we generally mark all our goods, but we can't mark these, because if we did it would leave an impression on the paper—I believe they are ours, and the plates we supplied in 1863, but there is no mark by which I know them—they are useless unless they are kept in a high state of polish—they leave us in that state with a piece of sliver paper between, so that they shall not scratch—I saw them again about two months back—they were then in that condition.

MR. POLAND. Q. Have you examined them all? A. Yes, there are four over, they may be old ones or not—there are 164 out of the 160, setting aside the four—there are fire different sizes and sets, 32 in each set, two of which are of extra thickness, extra stout—it was left to our judgment to make them, and we made them a certain thickness the manufactory is at Bristol—I have not been there—I never heard of the bankrupt's mother—I had one transaction with him before this one—I can't say how many were supplied then.

THOMAS EVANS (Police-sergeant, G 22). I received instructions to take the prisoner into custody on this charge, and went to his premises in President-street on 27th October—I went upstairs, found the prisoner in the bedroom, and told him he was charged with stealing a quantity of brass plates belonging to the assignees—he said, "I don't know anything about it"—he put on his clothes, we went downstairs into the first floor front room and he sat down for some little time—I commenced searching the place—he said, "Well, I did make away with them, they did not give me my allowance that was ordered by the Bankruptcy Court, and I had nothing to live on, but a friend of mine has got them out for me"—I said, "I have searched, but I can't find them"—he said, "Well, I don't know where they are"—I then took him downstairs into the warehouse), and' I found the 37 copper

plates under some paper cuttings—I then took him to the station, returned to the premises, and after searching some little time, found the 164 brass plates in an iron box in the engine-room—I took possession of them, and have bad them ever since.

Cross-examined. Q. Did he say anything about his mother? A. No—the wider plates fitted the box very tightly, but the narrower ones went in very easy—I don't know whether that was where they were usually kept.

JAMES BARRY . I am the trade assignee, and a creditor for over 900l.—until a few days before Luck and Chambers were examined at the Bankruptcy Court I was not at all aware that any of these plates had been sent to the pawnbroker's—I directed the prosecution in this matter.

Cross-examined. Q. Was it by your authority that an application was made that the costs of this prosecution should be paid out of the estate? A. Yes, to the Commissioner—I believe he made no order—I was not there—Mr. Reed made the application on my behalf, and Mr. Sargood opposed it—I directed Cutten and Davis to go in to sell—the property was sold by public auction—I received the money on account of the sales, from 200l. to 300l. I should think, or more than that—the Commissioner told me that any moneys I had I was to pay over into the official assignees' hand—I was not aware that such an application was made—he read the statute to me to show me that I ought to have paid the money into the hands of the official assignee—he might have read some penal clauses—I can't say how long I had it in my possession—I kept it to pay various expenses, the allowance and other things, which I handed over to the solicitor, not for this prosecution—I alone directed this prosecution—I don't know the day at all that Cutten and Davis took possession—I know of a valuation having been made of the property on the premises before the bankruptcy.

JAMES COOPER (re-examined.) The sale by Cutten and Davis was under my direction—these (produced) are the catalogues of the two first sales—there are other things mixed up in them besides Newbury's matters—I find no mention of a quantity of 160 brass plates, nothing corresponding with Newbury's property—there are some brass collar rollers—I don't see any copper or brass plates.

MR. ORRIDGE Q. Just look at that affidavit? A. Yes, this is my affidavit—I have never seen the original lease—I have no doubt this (produced) is a correct copy—the date of it is 10th December, 1863—it is between Mary Ann Newbury and Richard Charles Newbury—then there is a schedule of things attached in which they speak of hydraulic press and plates—the Commissioner decided on that case a day or two before 29th September, but on his order and on the schedule marked, you will find no plates at all, the hydraulic machine, but no plates.

MR. POLAND. Q. Until October, 1864, you were not at all aware of the existence of these plates? A. Never—all the plates that were on the premises when the messenger took possession, and when Cutten and Davis took possession were taken away by Cutten and Davis.


30th January 1865
Reference Numbert18650130-264
VerdictNot Guilty > directed

Related Material

264. ANN SPARKS (21) , Unlawfully endeavouring to conceal the birth of her child.

MR. HORRY conducted the Prosecution.

The COURT considered that the concealment was not made out


NEW COURT.—Thursday, February 2d, 1865.

Before Mr. Recorder.

30th January 1865
Reference Numbert18650130-265
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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265. JOHN SAMPSON LETKEY (49) , Unlawfully obtaining 3l. 10s. on 23d May, by false pretences. Other Counts, charging other sums on other dates.

MR. BESLEY conducted the Prosecution, and MR. METCALFE the Defence. EDWARD ROBERTS. I am manager of the business of George Robinson, of 20, Mark-lane, agent to the owners of the Zephyr and other ships—previous to 12th April, the defendant was in Mr. Robinson's service, on board the Magnet—Cutting was his chief officer—the defendant and Cutting were transferred to the Zephyr in April—this (produced) is the defendant's return for the first week he was on board the Zephyr—it is dated 16th April, and is an account of the wages-of the crew—I have also his disbursement account (produced) for the week—I have also three other returns of the defendant's; the wages accounts of 23d May, 30th May, and 6th June—I do not find the name of Mayes up to 14th May—I paid these sums to the defendant on these several weeks—the Zephyr leaves London on Wednesday, and returns on the following Monday—I have the disbursements account for those three voyages. (In each of these accounts, there was a charge of "Boat and two men through canal, 1l. 5s.")—I paid him the total sums on these papers—these accounts were delivered at the same time as the wages' accounts, and the amounts paid to the prisoner on each, on the faith of these documents being genuine and containing a true, account—I had not given him instructions to discharge any one after the second and third voyages of the Zephyr—I saw him every Monday from 6th June up to 18th October; but until 18th October, I was not aware that the number had been reduced from eight to seven—I met Cutting subsequently to 18th October—I afterwards saw the defendant and told him I thought he was acting unfairly and unjustly towards Cutting, after his having passed and obtained Her Majesty's certificate—he said that the man had not carried on the duties of the ship to his satisfaction—I afterwards saw Cutting again, and communicated to him what the defendant said; and I subsequently, about 6th December, had Cutting face to face with the defendant; and, reading from this document, I said, "It appears for three weeks after 12th April, up to the time of Cutting leaving, you have been working the vessel with seven hands instead of eight, and it is a very awkward thing"—he said, "I was not aware of it"—Cutting left, and I then pointed out to the defendant the very serious nature of affairs; and said that, unless he could prove that his documents were true, he would stand in a very awkward position—he said after a little while that he was not aware of it, and that he could make it good; he could return it—I said that that was not the point at all, and that he would be in a very awkward position, and I could not treat with him upon that—this occurred on Tuesday, and he left Mr. Robinson's service on the following Monday—I did not dismiss him, for which I was reprimanded—the money I handed to him on 23d May was Mr. Robinson's—he carries on business in Mark-lane, and I am manager under him—they were not my moneys—I gave him a cheque signed, by myself by procuration for Mr. Robinson—at the time of his dismissal, my attention had not been called to the charge of 1l. 5s. for going through the canal to Rotterdam, and 1l. 5s. for going back from Rotterdam—the Zephyr continued her voyages after

his dismissal—I got accounts from the new master—I saw Cutting, and subsequently the charge was made of 2l. 10s. per week.

Cross-examined. Q. Upon what bank did you give him a cheque? A. The Union Bank—it was on Mr. Robinson's account—he is not here—he has no partner—he keeps an account in his own name—after I had had this conversation, and the defendant said that he was not aware of it, he went another voyage—we did not pay him anything on his return from that voyage, and I have not now, not even the disbursements, the money out of pocket—they very likely amounted to 14l. or 15l.—I have not got the account here—I do not recollect that when he said that he was not aware of it, he said he would inquire, and if it had been so, he would return the money—he said that he was not aware of it, and would get the money returned, but not in the same sentence—I heard nothing about too much being charged, till after I had seen the prisoner—Cutting did not tell me; I found it out without—I heard nothing of the charge of 1l. 2s. until I had seen Cutting, and told him he would not be reinstated—Cutting had no certificate as a master, he had as a mate—the law does not require the mate to have a certificate as master, that he may take care of the ship if necessary, but we do—I cannot tell who the person was who was absent—there was no person specified by me—it would take from eighteen to twenty-four hours to go to Rotterdam—they go from below the Tower—the captain ought to be on the bridge while they are getting out to sea to give directions to the helmsman—the mate is next to the captain—he has no power to dismiss a man without the captain's knowledge—he does not discharge and report to the captain; the captain discharges every man—we do not require the discharge to be in writing—these vessels being in the home trade do not require ship's articles—we have the sheets up to November there is one set of disbursement-sheets, and one set of wages-sheets.

MR. BESLEY. Q. You said that you stopped 14l. or 15l. actual disbursements; did you stop any wages also? A. His own wages for one week, because he never applied for them, and we retained them—the total amount from the third week after April till the time I called his attention to it, was 3l. 12s. per week—it was from 12th April to 18th October, when the mate left—it is the captain's duty to keep the account of the disbursements; the mate has nothing to do with it—all these accounts rendered by him are signed by him.

ABRAHAM THOMAS CUTTING . I live at 28, Marine-street, Bermondsey—I was on board the Magnet with the defendant, as chief officer—he was master—on 12th April, 1864, I was transferred to the Zephyr—she sailed for Rotterdam every Wednesday, and returned every Sunday—on the first voyage I went, I had eight hands under my control—these are their names (On a list), and there was a boy named Peter Conolly—I paid the hands—I got the money from the master—I paid the eight hands and the boy On the first voyage—I had nothing to do with the engine-room, or with the steward and cook—after the third voyage, the defendant told me that Mr. Robinson would not allow more than seven hands, and I was to discharge one, and mentioned Turner in particular, who he said was neglectful at the wheel—I told him Turner had been quartermaster so long, and proposed discharging the last man who entered the ship, Charles May, which I did—he had been under me previously, as well as a man named Todd, who was working with May for a week before his discharge—Todd afterwards left the service—that was in the fourth week—May had been only one week in the ship when he had to leave—Todd left the next week, and then May was

taken back again—May was in the ship a week and out of the ship a week, and then he returned—only seven hands and a boy were then used to navigate the ship, and I paid them the amounts against their names, amounting to 13l. 8s.—that included the second mate and carpenter—it was 14l. 10s. a week when I first joined the ship—I got the money to pay the wages from the captain—I had nothing to do with these lists—I did not see them alter I had left—the captain did not hire a boat to go up the canal to Rotterdam during those three weeks, 23d May, 30th May, and 6th June, nor any boat or men to come down the canal—a boat was used at the entrance of the canal at Helvoetsluys to run the ropes away, going in and out—I know nothing about 6s. 8d. being paid for it—another boat was used at the New sluice going out—no boats were hired but those two—no other boot was used through the canal except the ship's boat, manned by her own people—I had nothing to do with making up these disbursement accounts, and never saw them—on 18th October, I left the Zephyr as the prisoner came to me and told me that it was Mr. Robinson's request that I should stop at home to obtain a master's certificate, as they could not allow any mates to be without one—I stayed for that purpose, and passed ray examination; I have my certificate in my pocket—I then went back to see the captain, and told him I had got my certificate, and that Mr. Robinson had told me to see him as he had said nothing about it—I then walked away and applied for another berth, but was refused, as I could not give an account why I had left my last ship—I afterwards saw Mr. Roberts—he had this paper (produced) in his hand—it is ray writing—he told me to Walk Outside the office and I do not know what he said to the defendant—I do not know how many people were in the Zephyr after I passed my examination—I occasionally went on board—the mate took charge of the ship in my place—there were seven hands when I left—I know nothing about these accounts—I said nothing to Mr. Roberts about them.

Cross-examined. Q. Were the eight men under your control? A. Yes; I discharged May on Monday afternoon—we went away on Wednesday, and when I returned on Sunday, Todd bad a little more tobacco than he was allowed, and I discharged him for it; May came on board looking for a berth, and I took him on again—the captain was not consulted at all; it was always left to me—I give a discharge to the men—printed forms are signed by the captain in blank, and I fill them up on discharging seamen—I filled one up for May, who is now in one of Mr. Robinson's steamers; the Lyons, trading between London and Harlingen; he remained till the end of September—he was out of berth a week, and then he went up the Baltic; he came back and went into the Lyons—I gave Todd a discharge; it does not specify the character; he came to the captain afterwards and got a written character—he has been working for me lately in my new ship—I left the Magnet because her station was altered and bet captain and deck hands transferred—I had shipped from the Lyons to the Magnet on 7th August previously—when I lived in Marine-street, and was not at sea, I used to drive about a little now and then for pleasure, in a light working cart—the man who the cart belonged to drove—I never drove a pair of greys—I drove twice to Bexley, and twice to Bromley, and the last time I went down the Croydon-road with my wife and friends—I believe I gave up driving out before I was discharged; I began it in the spring—I did not drive every Sunday, because every other Sunday we were late, according to the tide—the cart holds six; we paid 6s. for it, drove to a public-house to tea, and divided the expenses—my wages are 21 a week—in going through the canal

the boat is not kept at the stern; it is kept to heave the ship off by—our own people go into our own boat and make the ropes fast to the posts—there are men at the ends of the canal to fasten the ropes to the posts; I do not know whether anything is paid them for that, as the same men attend to the ship after she is through the locks—the boat is used to pull the vessel away from whichever side she touches—I am mostly on the forecastle deck, but not altogether—the Zephyr is 560 tons—other boats are hired at the entrance and the exit of the canal, going out and coming in—men always go ashore and attend the ship until she is locked through—I do not know what the charges are—the canal is about seven miles long, and there is a lock at each end—one lock is close to Helvoetsluys, and the other is called the New Sluice—I told Mr. Roberts that Todd was discharged when I was at the office.

MR. BESLEY. Q. Since you went before the Magistrate? A. Yes—the same hands that come when the vessel arrives, go through the whole seven miles of canal—I never saw a strange boat going through the canal that had been employed by the master at Helvoetsluys or New Sluice—the ship is a screw steamer—I have occasionally seen a man take hold of the rope with our own people, and help to make it fast; he would then walk on—the ship would come up on Sundays, according to the tide—we have been up at 9 in the morning—I usually went out with ray wife about 6 o'clock—the Lyons went away yesterday morning with the Zephyr.

WILLIAM EASTER I have been the boatswain of the Zephyr since 12th April, and am still employed there—from 1st December to October last the prisoner was master of the vessel and Cutting the chief mate—there were eight hands employed on board on 12th April, and they were continued for three weeks, when one was discharged and no other taken in his place—the crew continued to consist of seven only till the week after Mr. Cutting left—we went one week to Rotterdam without him, and the following week we had another hand—during the passage through the canal at Rotterdam our own boat is employed to run the ropes out.

Cross-examined. Q. Was the crew frequently changed? A. Not frequently, we had fresh faces perhaps once in a month or two—the seven seamen would be all over the ship during the voyage, wherever they were required—the helmsman is one of the seamen—five men are employed in different parts of the vessel, and two quartermasters to look after the cargo in harbour—the canal men fastened the ropes to the posts to keep the ship straight in the lock—we seldom had any ropes out in the canal unless a ship was passing, and then we used our own boat—she gets aground occasionally and then we throw out the ropes and use our own boat—the ropes are made fast to the posts by our men—we employ a boat to pull us into the first gate of the lock, and when we are in the lock and the gate is shut we occasionally use the canal men to make the ropes fast—the lock is one ship's length and seven or eight feet more—when we are through we have to go through the canal and do the same thing at the other end—going through the two locks will sometimes take an hour and sometimes two—Mr. Savage is the new mate.

MR. BESLEY. Q. Have you ever seen any canal men employed while the vessel is passing from lock to lock? A. No—the number of men was never more than seven up to the time Mr. Cutting left for examination.

JAMES MCNAUGHTEN . I am steward of the screw steamship Zephyr—I was previously in the Magnet—I went to the Zephyr with the mate, Mr. Cutting, and the captain—there were five seamen, two quartermasters, a boatswain

and a boy—at the beginning of May, about the third voyage after I joined, one hand, Charles May was discharged—I saw Todd on board after that—he afterwards left and May came back—after that there were never more than seven hands, up to the time Mr. Cutting went up for his examination—during the time the ship went through the canal, her own boat was employed and two hands from the ship—I know of no strange boat being employed between the locks—a boat was employed, I believe, to carry the rope ashore at Helvoetsluys and New Sluice—I was always present when the captain gave Cutting money to pay the men—he gave him 14l. odd for the first three weeks, while the full complement was there, and afterwards 13l. 8s.

Cross-examined. Q. How do you know? A. I have seen it counted out, and I saw it on the slips of paper; it was always laid out in pounds, so that I could not mistake it—it was part of my duty to be there to receive my money, and I had to pay the cook and the boy—I remained on board the Zephyr till the 21st November, when I was discharged by the captain—here is the letter (produced)—he did not tell me before he discharged me that I was accused of an indecent assault on a lady passenger; it was conduct towards a lady, but the clerk and the parties who were in the cabin spoke in Dutch and would not let me understand it—I am not aware that I was complained of for taking improper liberties with her in the water-closet—he handed me this letter in London—I was paid my week's money to stop at home in London, and then the captain handed me this letter, and said, "I have received this letter from Miss; the lady has been to the office and made complaints against you, there is the letter, read it yourself."—He discharged me a week afterwards.

Q. Did you say a word about the captain till you had been discharged? A. I never said it then—I did not go before the Police-court—I have not given evidence before this—some lad came and said that I was to be at Mr. Robinson's office at 9 o'clock next morning as they wanted to see me, and in the evening Mr. Cutting came round and also asked me to go next morning—he knew where to find me, because I had left my address on board the ship and at the office.

MR. BESLEY. Q. What boy had you to pay? A. The steward's boy, Walls—there was another boy on board who the mate had to pay—the money I received to pay the cook and boy was not part of the 13l. 8s.—I heard the captain say "13l. 8s."and he handed a slip of paper and the mate said "All right"—on some occasions the carpenter has borrowed a few shillings, generally it was 10s., which was handed to him, and sometimes his son borrowed some—there was always a slip of paper.

COURT to ABRAHAM THOMAS CUTTING. Q. Have you any of the slips of paper? A. No; the week before this I turned seven of them out of my pocket and burned them, not thinking they would be required—it was the week after I left the ship—they were small slips about an inch and a half wide, enumerating the people on board.

MR. METCALFE. Q. You say that you burnt them a week before this matter turned up? A. Yes, about a week before I saw Mr. Roberts—I will swear I did not burn them afterwards; the reason was that I found I was not going back to my ship—when I took them I put the money in one pocket, and the slips in the other, and afterwards I put them in the fire, as I was no longer belonging to the ship—they would have shown the exact amount.

MR. METCALFE to EDWARD ROBERTS. Q. How long has the prisoner been in the service? A. Ten or eleven years as mate and captain; captain a good many years.

MR. METCALFE Contended that as it was a cheque which the defendant obtained, and not money, the Indictment was not sustained, and that the cheque ought to have been produced. MR. BESLEY urged that the cheque being afterwards changed into money that would be sufficient. THE COURT considered that the charge was not made out.


30th January 1865
Reference Numbert18650130-266
VerdictGuilty > with recommendation

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266. GEORGE BARNES (37) , Unlawfully giving false evidence before the Commissioner in Bankruptcy.

MR. F. H. LEWIS conducted the Prosecution, and MR. SLEIGH the Defence.

JOHN CHARLES AUSTIN . I produce the proceedings in bankruptcy in the matter of George Barnes—he was adjudicated a bankrupt on his own petition, on 17th February, 1863—I find a preliminary statement of his accounts filed on 20th February, in which is the name of Mr. Wakefield, sen., of Maid-stone, debt 200l., interest 5l.—the choice of assignees was 12th March, 1863, and Mr. Jennings was chosen—the examination was fixed for 27th April—I find another list of accounts filed on 16th April, in which Mr. Wakefield's name is still retained for 205l.—the examination was adjourned to 1st June, and again to 1st July—there is a further statement of accounts, but there is no date to it—Mr. Wakefield's name is still inserted as a creditor—on 1st July the bankrupt passed his examination, and the order of discharge was adjourned to November 27th—he did not appear on that day, and the matter was adjourned sine die—the examination of 1st July was before Commissioner Robert George Cecil Fane.

JAMES PULLEN KNOTT . I am an attorney—I attested the prisoner's signature—this is his writing.

Cross-examined. Q. Are you the solicitor to the assignees? A. I was, and was acting for Mr. Hay ward, of Rochester—I made an affidavit in April a year and a quarter ago—information was derived from the bankrupt's solicitor that he had made an erroneous statement, and inserted the name of George Wakefield as. a creditor for 205l.—that was after let July, and then it was that a motion was made before the Commissioner to rescind the order—I have got the date; it was sworn 6th January, 1864, and it was before that—I was in the Bankruptcy Court on 1st July, 1863, when it was alleged that the bankrupt was sworn—I certainly did not see him sworn; I did not pay attention to it; everybody seemed to be speaking at once, and the Court was very much crowded.

MR. LEWIS. Q. You say that you made an affidavit? A. Tea; that was without communicating with Mr. Westall, the solicitor to Mr. Fane—I believe Mr. Jennings was not removed till the following April—after I had made that affidavit, an application was made to remove the assignee by Mr. Fane or Mr. Field, I do not know which, but the order appears here—it was not prepared by me, but I believe it to have been in April, 1864—(This being produced, was an order removing Stephen Jennings as assignee, and stating that the official assignee alone should wind up the estate)—that was some time subsequent to 13th April.

JOHN CHARLES AUSTIN (continued). I am the person who administers the oath—I administer 3, 000 or 4, 000 a year, and have no recollection of administering it to the defendant—I do not keep a memorandum of it.

MR. SLEIGH. Q. Is anybody else in Court authorised to administer an oath but yourself? A. The Registrar.

RICHARD PAYNE . I am a lighter-man residing at Chatham—I was present in the Bankruptcy Court on 1st July, 1863, and heard the defendant examined—before he was examined he was sworn by the usher of the Court.

Cross-examined. Q. Do you mean the gentleman who has just said that he

has no recollection of doing so? A. Yes; there were a good many people in Court, and there was a good deal of talking, and a great deal of confusion—I saw a book handed to the defendant when he was sworn, but I did not open it—I never had any doubt that this gentleman administered the oath—(The witness's deposition being read, stated: "The witness, Mr. Austin, is something like the man; I thought it was a more elderly man"—also "When I said he was a more elderly man, I only saw Mr. Austin's side face")—I had a doubt when the man stood sideways to me, but you told me to turn round, and look at him, and then I knew him—he was standing close to me when you asked me the question, but he was sideways—the words of the oath were that he should give the truth, and the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help him God—I am the gentleman who has been opposing the bankrupt throughout—there were no assets, and no dividend, that I am aware of.

MR. LEWIS. Q. Did you hear him examined as to a debt supposed to be due from him to Mr. Wakefield? A. Yes; he said he had borrowed 100l. of Mr. Wakefield in the Market-place, and another 1001. at Mr. Wakefield's own house; that he did not know how the first 100l. was paid, but that it was in notes and gold, and the second 100l. all in gold.

COURT to JOHN CHARLES AUSTIN. Q. Is there but one book which you tender to swear people? A. Only the New Testament and the Old; the words are, "The answers you shall give to the questions put to you shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth."

MR. LEWIS. Q. Do you find from the amended accounts that were filed on 2d February, 1864, that Mr. Wakefield's name is omitted? A. There is no list of creditors in this account (MR. SLEIGH stated that he would admit that the name was omitted.)—(The bankrupt's examination of November 9th, 1864, being partially read stated: "I do not know I owe Mr. Wake-field anything—I wrote to him for 200l., and sent him my I.O.U.—I do not know how long before my bankruptcy—I never received any money from Mr. Wakefield, either in the street, or in his house—he does not appear in my books as a creditor—I sent Mr. Wakefield the I.O.U., and never had it back again, and that is the reason I put him down as a creditor"—Wakefield, Dalton, and Woods were put down, lest there should be any claim after the bankruptcy)—the document is signed at the time of his being made a bankrupt—I administered the oath when he came up to be examined.

MR. SLEIGH. Q. You administer the oath? A. In ninety-nine cases out of a hundred I do—the examination is not taken down, and there would be nothing to make a memorandum on—there is an examination here, which every bankrupt signs, wherein be swears that his accounts are true, but there is no written record of his first examination—in the first account, filed on 16th April, he says: "By property given up to my assignees, 320l.," and in the sheet he describes his property as "arising from machinery and fixtures on my premises, freehold and copyhold, 187l.; household goods, 95l. 14s., and a policy for 500l. valued at 30l."—the life policy is mortgaged—no dividends has been paid—Mr. Payne is one of the largest creditors—the largest is Mr. Dunton, 750l. and interest.

JOHN SPENSER FIELD . I am a corn merchant and a miller, of Chatham—I was present at the Bankruptcy Court on 1st July, 1863—Mr. Lucas asked the defendant a great many questions in reference to his oath, and asked if he would swear that the second 100l. was advanced to him at his house—the defendant said, "Yes, all in sovereigns"—Mr. Lucas said, "Will you swear it was all in gold?"and he said that he would—Mr. Mr. Lucas said, "At his own house?"—he said, "I have already sworn"—

Mr. Lucas put a question as to what he had done with the money—he said "I have had the money, and I have used it in my business."

WILLIAM SANKEY . I am a surgeon of Maidstone—I have seen Mr. Wakefield; he broke his leg on 18th January, and is unable to travel.

The deposition of George Wakefield was here read as follows: "I am a farmer at Sutton, near Maidstone—I know the defendant—I know he has been bankrupt—he did not owe me any money at the time of his bankruptcy, or since—I do not think I have ever lent him any money—two years ago he applied to me for a loan of money—I new lent him any money at Maid-stone at the market—I never lent him any money in my own house—the bankrupt said something to me about putting my name down, but I do not know what it was—the defendant said to me that he should put my name down as a creditor. Cross-examined. "I have never lent the bankrupt any money within the last three years; no one was present at the conversation. I had an I.O.U. for 200l. of the defendant's in my possession; I can't tell when it was—I think it was two years ago—it was more than two years ago. The I.O.U. may have been destroyed; he sent me the I.O.U., and afterwards applied for the loan of 200l. I never lent it to him. G. Wakefield.

the prisoner received a good character.

GUILTY.—Recommended to mercy by the Jury. Confined Nine Months.

THIRD COURT.—Thursday, February 2d, 1865.

Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

30th January 1865
Reference Numbert18650130-267
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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267. SAMUEL JOHN PHILLIPS (46), THOMAS FRANCIS HOLMAN (33), and JOHN GREEN (35) , Stealing 280 lbs. of sugar-sweepings, and 280 lbs. of sugar, the property of Robert Holdsworth Carew Hunt, and another, their masters.

MESSRS. GIFFARD and POLAND conducted the Prosecution, MESSRS. DALEY and HARRY PALMER appeared for Phillips, MR. COOPER for Holman, and MR. COLLINS for Green.

JOSEPH POPE . I live at 10, Mount-street, New-road, Whitechapel, and am a carman in partnership with Mr. Cook—I know the three prisoners—I know a place at Brewer's Quay, belonging to Messrs. Barber and Co., which is known as "Phillips' Warehouse"—Phillips was the warehouseman, and the other two were foreman—I have been in the habit of going to Brewer's Quay, I think, ten years—I saw the prisoners every time I went there—I have been in the habit of buying the sugar-sweepings—I first commenced, I think, in 1855—I bought them of Phillips at that time—I used to be at Fennings and Fishers after some empties—Mr. Brickler took me to Mr. Kent, and Mr. Kent took me to Mr. Phillips, and I bought the sugar-sweepings of him—Kent now occupies the situation which Mr. Green occupied—I remember a transaction about eighteen mouths ago—on that occasion I bought two and a half hundredweight of sweepings, one cask—I made the bargain for that cask with Green—he was not then in the service of Barber and Co—he was at Bow Common, in a chemical place—he was out of their service for a short time—I believe the bargain was made at my house at the same price as before—he said there were some sweepings down there they wanted to sell; I could fetch them away at the same price I had before; that was five shillings a hundredweight—I went down to the warehouse in the course

of a day or so, and saw Holman and Phillips—I gave Holman half a sovereign then, and in the coarse of a day or two, I went and took the cask away—the ten shillings was as part payment—Phillips was there when I took the cask away—I paid the rest of the money to Holman—Phillips was present—I, and Phillips, and Holman went out and had a glass of ale together—the cask weighed about two and a half hundredweight—I took it to my own premises—my partner, Mr. Cook afterwards sold it; I dare say I had had it in the yard a mouth when he sold it—he sold it to a Mr. Cohen—Mr. Cook is here—I did not see Bacon—I do not know him—I did not see the money paid for the sugar.

Cross-examined by MR. DALEY. Q. I believe when the first charge was made you were in the dock at the Mansion House? A. Yes, I was a prisoner, on five remands—I was then taken from the dock and made a witness for the prosecution—I went for the sweepings from half-past 8 to 11 in the day—there were a great many men at the warehouse—there was no concealment as far as I saw, if there had been I should not have bought it—my cart came under the loop-hole in the ordinary way—Phillips always gave me to understand that the sweepings were given to him by Mr. Barber—I bought them at nine shillings a hundredweight at first, and five shillings latterly—the sweepings is the sawdust and the scattered sugar that comes from the floor, where people walk as they go about the warehouse—there is dirt from the shoes of the men—if not they would be worth more than five shillings a hundredweight.

Cross-examined by MR. COLLINS. Q. You had been in the habit of buying sugar from Phillips at the warehouse as far back as 1855? A. Yes, always sugar-sweepings; all the transactions took place openly, without any concealment—I used to buy them in the warehouse in the presence of Phillips, and Holman, and Mr. Kent—I used to take them away in Mr. Swear's cart before, and my own since—my name was on the cart—Mr. Swear was my former employer—we used to take the sweepings into the cart in the public street.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. Mr. Phillips as, I understand, was the warehouseman? A. Yes; the cart does not go into the wharf; it stands in the street, under the loophole in Thames-street—I don't know how Mr. Barber would know what we were doing if he was there—Phillips was the man who had the management of the warehouse.

WILLIAM COOK . I am in partnership with the last witness—I have known the prisoners for some years—about eighteen months' ago I remember a cask of sugar-sweepings being brought to our premises by Mr. Pope, about two and a half hundredweight—I sold them to a Mr. Cohen for somewhere about nine shillings a hundredweight.

JOHN COHEN . I live at 19, Butler-street, Tenter-ground, Spitalfields—I remember about two years ago, buying a cask of waste sugar from Mr. Pope, who is in partnership with Mr. Cook—I gave about nine shillings a hundredweight for it, and sold it for twelve shillings to Mr. Bacon a confectioner—the weight was from 2 1/4 cwt to 2 1/2cwt.

Cross-examined by MR. DALEY. Q. Did I correctly understand you when you said waste sugar? A. It was what we call dirty.

Cross-examined by MR. COLLINS. Q. Was there any sawdust in this cask? A. It was full of sawdust—we call it waste sugar where there is dirt in it—I did not refine it before I sold it—I always sell it as it is—I am not sure whether I paid Mr. Pope or Mr. Cook for this particular sugar.

JOHN BACON . I am a confectioner, at 19, Union-street, Spitalfields—I

remember about a year and a half ago buying about two and a half hundredweight of sugar-sweepings from Mr. Cohen—I went to Pope and Cook's premises to look at it before I bought it—I gave somewhere about twelve shillings a hundredweight for it—I examined it—there were some small lumps of sugar in it—I used it in my business.

Cross-examined by MR. DALEY. Q. What month did you buy it in? A. About two years and a half ago—I can't fix the month; it was between eighteen months and two years ago.

Cross-examined by MR. COOPER. Q. Have you bought sugar-sweepings for a long time past? A. Yes; I purified them—this was much dirtier than common sugar-sweepings; a great deal of sawdust and grit in it—I gave too much a great deal for it—we put it in water to purify it, and run it through bags.

JURY. Q. Was there much lump-sugar in the sweepings, or was it raw? A. It was all lump-sugar.

Cross-examined by MR. COLLINS. Q. Was it all powdered lump-sugar, or were they in lumps? A. There was some dust sugar, and some small lumps about the size of a pea, and some bigger—I did not see any lumps as big as my fist; I wish I had—I got less sugar out of it than I anticipated after the dirt and sawdust were taken from it.

JURY. Q. What description of cask was the sugar in? A. A soda cask—if it had been all sugar, it would hold about four hundredweight.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. You say you have been in the habit of buying these sweepings for some time? A. Not that sort, very different, from different parties—I purchased these because I thought them cheap—I examined them before I agreed to give twelve shillings—I did not inquire from whence they came.

HENRY PRIME . I am the son-in-law of a person Darned Moses Loxton—I was present some part of the time when his deposition was being taken before the Lord Mayor—the prisoners were present—Moses Loxton is now dead—he died last Tuesday evening, the 31st, at ten' minutes before 6—I think I saw him sign his deposition; I am not clear whether I did—I saw the gentleman go over to him—I was not close enough to see the mark made.

Cross-examined by MR. DALEY. Q. Was Loxton examined before the Lord Mayor, or at your house? A. At my house by the Lord Mayor—he was dying at that time—the prisoners were taken there too.

The deposition of Moses Loxton was here read as follows;—"I live at No. 1, Harland-square, Mill-row, Kingsland-road, and am now out of employment and receiving a government pension—until the last few months I have been in the service of Messrs. Barber and Co., of Brewer's Quay, Thames-street, City—I was there as a labourer and employed at Phillip's warehouse—I know all the four prisoners, Green, Holman, Phillips, and Pope—Phillips was the master of the warehouse and Green was foreman of the sugar floor, Holman used to be in the counting-house, at the top of the stairs—Pope is a carman—I have seen him at Brewer's Quay half a dozen times—I have not seen him lately—I saw him the last time about six months ago there, with a whip in his hand—I have seen him pass and talk with both Green and Phillips—I don't know whether Pope has been waiting for goods or not—remember being sent to sift some sweepings about two years ago by Green and Phillips—the sweepings were sugar sweepings, some of them wanted much sifting and some did not—I was sent to sift these sweepings on the sugar floor of which Green is the foreman—there was about a sack of sugar-sweepings at that time—bits of sugar about the size of an egg were

in the sweepings which I threw out and some of that was dirty—the lumps I threw out went to another lot to make up lots where there was a deficiency—I left them there—I don't know what became of them, I think the small bits were thrown into a box by Green—I saw Green take two or three of these bits and make them into powder and put the powder in the box with the other lumps—the sweepings were kept in different places, sometimes in dark and sometimes in light places, they were kept in general behind the other goods—when I had done sifting the sweepings Green told me to go on to the cheese floor, and on other occasions when I have been on the sugar floor Green has told me they could do without me there, I was to go on to the cheese floor—when I came back in the course of an hour I saw six bags of sweepings on that floor, but I don't know where they came from—they each weighed about a cwt. and not more—I have seen bags there being sifted and filled on other occasions, but what was done with them 1 know not—It was one evening I saw the six bags, they were put on the next floor and the next morning there were seven—there were besides two small bags called cochels"—the time the next morning that I saw the bags was about twenty minutes to eight o'clock—at that time there were present, Green, Phillips, and a carman, I don't think it was the prisoner Pope, but I can't swear to him—Phillips weighed each of these sacks separately and took the weight down in a little private book he took out of his pocket, it was not a book belonging to the Quay—Green took the sugar from the scale to the trap, then put it in the slings and sent it out by the little cart below as soon as he could—it was sent out by the crane and not by the block tackle, and all was sent out together—it is a good bit ago since this took place, but I can't exactly make a calculation, it might be a year and a half or two years—I said at the time to Green, "Don't you want a cart note?" and he said, "You mind your own business, without you want the sack"—I went in and out of the sugar floor after that—the cochels were not weighed, they wound be about a quarter of a cwt. each, but they did not go out then, only the seven bags went out. Cross-examined by the prisoner Pope. I have seen the other carmen take the sacks away, I cannot swear it was you—signed "Moses Loxton, † hismark."

FREDERICK UTTON . I am a labourer in the service of Barber and Co. of Brewer's Quay, and have been so for something like ten years—I know Phillips' warehouse—during the last few years I have from time to time seen Pope there, in the warehouse—I remember about two years ago his being there, not eighteen months, he was looking at a cask of sweepings in the warehouse, Phillips was present—the cask was a flour barrel—I used at times to sweep up the warehouse—there were a good many loaves of sugar there, a great quantity of sugar—the loaves would sometimes get broken—I should not sweep up the broken loaves, only the sweepings.

Cross-examined by MR. DALEY. Q. You say merely the sweepings of the sugar? A. Yes, from the floor—I have done that for the last six years, it was part of my duty to sweep up—the other men sometimes swept up as well—the sweepings were put in casks and sent away in the day time—I am in the service of the prosecutors now.

Cross-examined by MR. COOPER. Q. How often do your masters come to the warehouse? A. Every day, from what I know of—they look about everywhere and go from warehouse to warehouse—I suppose they knew that they were sweepings—I knew it, it was not my place to question my masters—all the warehouses are dusted down with sawdust, it is put down during

wet weather—I don't know that any men have been discharged since this inquiry, except the prisoners; there are some 300 or 400 people there, I can't say—Phillips' warehouse is very large, large floors, one on top of the other, sugar is placed on a great portion of these floors, some in loaves and some in hogsheads—there was no brown sugar where I was at work—everything was unloaded from Phillips' warehouse into the street, that is the proper way of sending anything out—it is Thames-street, where people are constantly going backwards and forwards all day—we can't tell when our masters are coming, they came in at different times.

Cross-examined by MR. COLLINS. Q. How long has Phillips been the foreman of this warehouse? A. I should say thirty years—I don't think he has been always foreman of this warehouse—during the ten years I have been there these sweepings have always been sold—I always had an idea they were the perquisites of the foremen; not the men, of Phillip's; during the time this one cask was fetched away Green was not in the employment of the prosecutors, he was away—a man named Code has not been dis-charged—Iveson was discharged previous to this, Kicks was discharged—I always understood Hitchings discharged himself, he has left.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. Who did you get your orders from? A. From Green, I did what I was told by him—I never got any orders directly from Messrs. Barber.

THEODORE HALSTEAD FOULGBR . I am a detective officer of the City—on Friday, 18th November I took Green into custody at his house in York-street, Stepney, about three or four in the afternoon—I told him I had got instructions to apprehend him for stealing a quantity of sugar-sweepings, the property of his late employers, Messrs. Barber and Co.—I said, 'I shall ask you a few questions, you can please yourself about answering them, how often have you sold sugar-sweepings?"—he said, "Three or four times,"—I said, "Do you mean three or four times previous to the middle of last year, July or August?"—he said, "Yes, the last lot I sold was about July last, they realized about 2l. 4s. or 2l. 5s."—that his share was 15s. and that the other money was divided between Phillips and Holman—he said he had sold the sweepings to Pope by Phillips* order—I took him to the station and he was charged—I took Phillips about 24th November, I think, at his house in Grafton-street, Mile-End—I told him that I had instructions to apprehend him for being concerned with others in stealing a quantity of sugar-sweepings, the property of his late employers, Messrs. Barber and Co.—about a week previous to that, in company with Sergeant Huggett, I went to Phillips' house and saw him—I then told him that we were officers and that there had been a very large robbery of sugar at Messrs. Barber and Co.'s warehouse, that we were going to put some questions to him, and that it would entirely depend upon his answers how we should act in the matter—I particularly told him that he had better say the truth or else not answer at all—I then took down his statement in my memorandum book which I have here (reading: "Mr. Saunders was above me—I never sold any sweepings, directly or indirectly—I have known sweepings have been collected—I have seen chips collected—I did not receive 15s. at any time—I never received any money—in 1851 Mr. James Barber gave me a few sweepings—I have known sweepings go out about four, five, or six years ago to the man who bought Fenning's hogsheads—the money was divided among the whole of us on the floor; previous to June Holman gave me some money, but I do not know what it was for—Green has often tried to sell loaves of sugar to Mr. Ferguson at the Duke of wellington the back of Stepney Church, near

Green's residence")—that is all that took place on that occasion—we left and I afterwards received instructions to apprehend him, he said, "If I had known that any one had sold sweepings I should have immediately discharged them, the whole of the men at the warehouse knew that it was the governor's particular orders that nothing was to go out of the warehouse"—that is all that passed between us.

Cross-examined by MR. DALEY. Q. Did either you or Huggett say that if he did not disclose, he would be put in the dock too? A. I have no recollection of those words being uttered—I said, "It will entirely depend upon the explanation you will give as to how you will be treated at a future time"—I took down what he said word by word as he said it—I asked him if he bad received any money about June, because we had heard that a quantity of sugar sweepings had been taken at that time—he said, "Never"—I said, "Recollect yourself"—he then said, "Holman did give me some money, but I did not know what it was for"—I don't know that the prosecutors gave orders in June or July that no' sweepings were to go out—I have heard Mr. Hunt say so—Phillips never said to me that he had not sold them since those orders were given, but he did afterwards going to the station—I did not mean by what I said to him that he would be forgiven if he confessed—I said if he would give a satisfactory account of what had taken place he would not hear anything more about it—I said about 2, 500 tons of sugar had been missed out of the warehouse—I said sugar and sweepings—that was principally what I went down to him about—he was not apprehended for a week after that conversation.

JOSEPH HUGGETT . I took Holman into custody at Brewer's-quay on 19th November—Foulger was with me—Holman was called out of the office by Mr. Sayre, and I told him we had got instructions to apprehend him for being concerned with Green in stealing a quantity of sugar sweepings—he said, "Very well"—on the road to the station he said, "I have received money for sweepings, but always understood from Green and Phillips that they had permission from Mr. James Barber to sell them; about the middle of the year I received 15s. as my share for sweepings—I searched him, and found this piece of paper (produced) with the addresses of Pope, Green, and Phillips on it.

EDWARE SAYRE . I am a clerk in the employment of the prosecutors—the mode of business is this, when goods are coming in, take, for instance, 1270 loads of sugar coming in on 4th July, 1864—it would be first the duty of the foreman Phillips to see what quantity was coming into the warehouse so as to make allowance for room—he then would appoint a tallyman, a man to tally the sugar into the warehouse from the quay—previous to that it would be weighed by the Custom-house officer, who is one of our clerks, and then tallied into the warehouse by the tallyman—that is for the Customs, for the duty, and for our own protection—Phillips would appoint his tallyman in the warehouse, and he would see the sugars tallied, and if there was any discrepancy between the tally in the warehouse and the tally on the quay, reference would be then made to the tally on the quay—if it agreed it would be put into this book, which we call the stock-book by Green or Holman, the under foremen—we should return a landing account, the landing weight of the sugar to the merchant from the quay—in the event of sugar going out from the warehouse; if a merchant requires fifty loads of sugar he would give a delivery order for it to his carman—the carman would take it into our counting-house, which is on the quay, away from the warehouse, that order would be marked by an authorized clerk,

who has a counterpart of what is in the warehouses in his book, and given back to the carman, who would be told what particular warehouse to take it into—it would be the duty either of Holman or Green to receive the order in Phillip's warehouse, or, perhaps Phillips would receive the order himself, one of the three—they would then see the goods put into the scale and weighed out, and then loaded into a van—the foreman, whoever he might be, would give what is called a cart note to the carman—it is a sort of receiving note—it describes the ship, the date of the importation, and to whom it is going—whoever delivers it signs that for our firm, and the weight is put on the back—those are the counterfoils of the notes which you have there—the same would be on the counterfoil as on the note—sweepings would not be delivered out of the warehouse without an order from the manager—sugar sweepings would not be in our books, because they are waste—the order from the manager would undoubtedly be in writing—I have been in the service about twelve years—the men were never in my experience permitted to take the sugar sweepings—I never saw Green or Holman on the matter of deficiencies until after the discharge of Green—some two or three weeks after his discharge he called at our office—I said to him, "Do you know anything about sweepings?'—he said, "No, I don't know anything about them"—I said, "Did you never sell any"—he said, "No"—I said, "But you received in July or August 15s. for your share"—he said, "It is a lie"—I said, "Holman told me so"—I then sent for Holman—when he came Green said, "Yes, there were some sweepings"—I said, "How much did you sell them for?"—he said, "About a shilling a hundredweight"—I turned to Holman and said, "It was more than that they were sold for"—Holman paid, "I think it was 8s. but I do not know how much they were sold for; I only had 15s. for my share"—Green then said, "It might have been five or six shillings"—nothing more was said—in the course of the year 1864 we have had to pay a very great deal to merchants for deficiences in sugar.

MR. COLLINS. Q. Have you paid them yourself? A. No, but I have the receipts.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. Were they deficiences from Phillips' warehouse? A. These papers I hold in my hand are claims for warehouse deficiences, amounting to between 1, 100l. and 1, 200l.—they have been paid by our firm—I was present one day in a merchant's office when one of the cheques was paid.

Cross-examined by MR. DALEY. Q. You say there is generally an order from the owners of goods? A. Yes—there would be no order for sweepings from the merchant the order would come from the ware-house-keeper—it is the ware-house-keeper's right to make out deficiency—there is a certain waste in sugar therefore the warehouseman takes it—a very large quantity of refined sugar has been loaded in our warehouse; the quantity scattered on our floors would depend on the quantity we had; if a large quantity, there would be more waste—I have no doubt that sugar has been stolen too, large loaf-sugar, it was on nothing but loaf-sugar that deficiencies were paid—the loaves are frequently broken—there has been sugar stolen undoubtedly, the sweepings alone would not amount to 1, 200l.—my duties did not take me into the warehouse—the warehouse ought to be swept up every day—there was sawdust on the floor—I never made any inquiry what became of the sweepings that came from the floor—it was the foreman's place if he had sweepings to report it to the manager—it is quite possible that these sweepings could have been sold for ten or twenty years without any notice being taken of it, with the large quantity of business we do—I believe Mr.

Hunt gave an order about August last that sweepings should not be sold any more—I asked Holman when be sold them; the selling he did not admit, but he said he received fifteen shillings, he thought about July or August—I think they would have been discharged for stealing the sweepings undoubtedly they would have been discharged for taking these sweeping, if a deficiency had not been found—I know that Mr. Hunt did not know that sweepings went out—he had not the slightest idea of it—I heard something about the men being interdicted in August from selling the sweepings—I have understood since the men were discharged that it was so—they were not discharged till November because Mr. Hunt did not know they had been taking sweepings—if he had they would have been discharged.

Cross-examined by MR. COOPBR. Q. Have you not traced that cask that was sold to the confectioner as leaving your warehouse about June or July? A. I fancy it was July—I believe it was in July or August from the fact of Holman saying that he had received 15s. from Phillips in July or August—I have not since found out that it was in June.

Cross-examined by MR. COLLINS. Q. I suppose that 1, 100l. or 1, 200l. deficiency is inclusive of the usual waste of sugar? A. Undoubtedly, but there is not a great waste—if we have a loss of a quarter percent. it is considered not out of the way, it ought not to be so much—quarter per cent. would be 51bs weight in a ton—it is impossible to say how many loaves of sugar pass through this warehouse in the course of a twelvemonth—we have a rolling stock going through that warehouse not far short of 2, 000 tons—after the reduction of duty in May last, we had upwards of 2, 000 tons going through the warehouse—that was a rolling stock—I think I am speaking far within bounds if I say we have 60, 000 or 70, 000 tons passing through the warehouse in the course of the year—it might be 100, 000, but I don't like to say—a large quantity of that consists of loaves done up in papers—there are four floors to Phillips' warehouse I think—one part of it if on the quay side—we get the loaves of sugar up and down by pitching them through loopholes from floor to floor, through trap-doors, one man throws and another catches—undoubtedly a large number of the loaves get broken, and the paper also—they get broken in the hold of the ship as well—they are weighed on the quay first coming out of the ship, or out of the barge if the ship is not alongside the quay—they are weighed by the Custom-house officer and one of our clerks, and then sent into the warehouse—we are liable for the weight we receive—if loaves are broken we should make up the loss—we should try and give a merchant the same loaves he sent for—we keep the different consignments separate as well as we can—if a man sent for "B cross, "we should not give him "double cross"—we should give him "B cross"—there is a distinguishing mark on every loaf of sugar—it is impossible to say how many loaves are broken in every hundred—some ships, if they are not in a great hurry to unload or load, turn them out pretty clean—I am a collector in the establishment—Mr. Hunt would give you better information of the number of loaves that are broken, and a person named Saunders—he is here.

JOSEPH CAREW HUNT . I am a manager of the firm of Barber and Co., and son of one of the partners—I remember one occasion when I happened to be staying late, and leaving the premises—I should fancy it was over 18 months ago—I saw a cart partly laden with wood—in consequence of that I sent for Phillips and asked him the reason he was loading the wood so late of a night and keeping the warehouse open—he said he was loading some wood which had been given to him by Mr. Grieve, a clerk to Trimmer and

Grange's, who art merchants—it was cheese-box wood—I said he was not to do it again, he was to come and ask me if he was going to take any thing of the kind, and I would give him a written or a verbal order for it, if any one gave wood to him—the caution I gave him had reference to anything else being taken away—I did not know at that time that ho was in the habit of sending sweepings out—I have boon manager two years or more—as far as I have ever known, the men were never permitted to take sweepings out.

Cross-examined MR. DALEY. Q. Who was' the manager before you took the office? A. Mr. James Barber—he is in Hampshire—we have written to him—we have not subpaened him—I should first ask one of the firm before I gave the man permission to take sweepings—I don't think I should be doing wrong if 1 gave thorn permission without asking the firm—we have sold sugar to Morris of Richmond—I believe some was simply the sweepings of the floor, and some was in lumps—I don't think other sugar has been sold to anybody else—I think it was done on this occasion because we had a claim sent in by Mr. Engleheart for a deficiency—I believe some of these lumps were sold from Phillips' warehouse, and some were not—I don't know at all—I had nothing to do with the sale myself during the two years I have boon manager—I have not made inquiry what because of the sawdust and what was swept up every day from the floor—I know the warehouse was swept, but I did not know that if they swept the floor they would get anything off it worth having—there must be a slight quantity spilt, but not to any extent—the loaves are covered with paper—some often get broken and the dust sprinkled about—they send them up at the rate of 1, 000 an hour, I believe, from hand to hand—I have heard since that Phillips said that Mr. James Barber gave him leave to sell the sweepings—we did not think it necessary to bring him here to contradict that, because we had a letter from him—I believe it was addressed to Messrs. Butliffe—I read it—we also store butter at our warehouse; the men there have always been allowed to sell the scrapings—the men in the bacon and pork warehouses have had the scrapings and chips until recently, but that, has been stopped since the prisoners wore given into custody—I think it was about the beginning of July that I told the men to collect the sweepings of the sugar—I told Green and Holman that they were to collect sweepings from that time—I asked them previously whether they had collected any, and they told mo that the sweepings were always thrown on the dust heap—I told them, in future they must collect them and put them in Casks—I told Phillips he might have those cheese-boxes on that occasion, but in future he was not to have any—there was afterwards a little parcel, which ho said was given him by a merchant—they had boon lying there some time and I allowed him to take them away—that was the day before ho was sent away, I think—he had not taken anything till then from the time I spoke to him—I gave my evidence twice before the Lord Mayor—I was asked some questions by Mr. Wontner and Mr. Beard—I think I mentioned about these cheese-boxes first when Mr. Wontner asked me the question—I don't think Phillips was asked about this till a month after he was discharged—I did not tell him I would give him a character—I might have told him I would do what I could for him.

Cross-examined by MR. COLLINS. Q. Phillips has boon in your service about thirty years? A. I believe so—he was always looked upon as the head of his warehouse—he employed men under him—Mr. Kent was there before my time—I know nothing about him, only from hearsay—Mr. James

Barber was only the manager—he is not a partner now, he has retired altogether from the business—before I came there he was the manager of all the warehouses—I never took particular notice of how many loaves of sugar are broken in their transit from the ship to the wharf—of course they mutt get broken, And there must be a certain waste—there are not many broken going from the quay to the warehouse, because if a man lets a loaf drop, it would go on to the person's head underneath—there are not many broken in the floor of the warehouse—Mr. James Barber is a nephew of the late Mr. Harbor.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. Do you know what is the state of Mr. James Barber's health now? A. I only know by hearsay.

COURT. Q. Have you ever seen him? A. Yes, he is between fifty and sixty years old.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. When did he leave the management of the firm? A. I think it must have boon the latter part of last year—he was there for some time—he hail not very good health, and therefore did not take active duty there—that has been the case for the last two years, I should say—he gave up from ill-health, and I think our people did not object—he has now nothing whatever to do with the firm.

COURT. Q. Can you tell me what the price per hundredweight of this sugar is, the sugar itself! A. I believe it to be about 48s. a hundredweight, clean sugar, in the loaf.

CHARLES ROGERS SAUNDERS (examined by MR. COLLINS). I am an inspector of labour at Brewer's-quay—I was above Phillips—I attended daily at his warehouse—I could direct him what to do, and what not to do; in tome things, I did—I was supposed to be his master—I controlled his proceedings when necessary—I have been there between six and seven years—I was not always master over Phillips; I have been to ft year, or not quite, perhaps, not before June, 1863—a man named Owen was his master before then; he was in my position—my duty is to attend round all the ware-houses and see that everything is done properly, and to see that there is no waste in the out-door expenditure; that is, in the ware-houses—I am often in Phillips' warehouse; I might be there perhaps twice in half an hour, and I might not ho there for three-quarters of an hour or an hour—I am not aware where Mr. Owen is now; he has left the employment—I don't know that efforts have been made to find him—the number of loaves broken all depends on the parcels—I have known seventy or eighty loaves broken in a hundred—they are wrapped up in paper, and you can't always tell whether they are broken—I have known as many as seventy or eighty per cent. broken, but very seldom—of course there would be a great deal of waste—a quarter per cent, is a liberal allowance for waste—all the pieces that could be possibly put in would be put in and tied up—the paper is not always broken with the sugar, not in the majority of instances—it is passed up through the hands, and there is no breakage—it depends upon how the sugar is broken whether it would break the paper—a thousand loaves an hour is very quick for packing into the warehouse—it is not often so quick as that; from nine hundred to a thousand would be about it.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. Did you know at all of any sweepings being sold by Phillip and his men! A. I knew nothing at all about it until this discovery took place.

COURT. Q. You knew nothing of sweepings being taken by the men? A. I heard nothing of it until this time—I mean that a quarter per cent. would be the waste after collecting all the pieces and putting thorn in loaves

and tying them up, making them up as well as we could—the final waste then would be about a quarter per cent.

COURT to EDWARD SAYRE Q. You spoke of the sum of 1, 200l. being paid for deficiencies; over what period of time did that extend! A. From about May down to about September, 1864—about five or six months on goods imported—what amount of goods were imported during that time I am not in a position to say; these losses were on particular parcels of sugar—the gross weight of those parcels might be 60, 000 tons, or it might be 100, 000—it was a very busy time; it might have been 60, 000 or 70, 000 tons, perhaps about 75, 000—we had a receiving stock of about 2, 000 tons in the warehouse, in and out.

JURY. Q. Are they all foreign sugars? A. Yes, all foreign—we only take refined sugar—I don't think there is more waste in them—we have had to pay no deficiencies on British sugars, all on foreign.

COURT. Q. Do you know anything about the deficiencies you paid in 1863? A. We paid no deficiencies in 1863—previous to that the importation of refined sugar was comparatively small—it was after the reduction of duty that we had to pay the deficiency—the reduction kept the coarser quality out—the class of sugar that came previous to the reduction was of a finer description—we have reason to believe that having a fine class of sugar, it was substituted the one for the other.

JURY. Q. Some of these deficiencies you had to pay for in 1864 might have arisen from sugar that came in 1863? A. It might have done so—no notice was posted up at all forbidding perquisites; we don't have written rules in our establishment, the men know what the rules are—that was a mistake with regard to the butter-scrapings—I can explain with regard to the bacon-scrapings; in the provision-floor a merchant will have, say 200 barrels of pork, he will want them cleaned and put into merchantable condition; he would have the casks turned out, and all the pieces of beef or pork trimmed—he will then say to the warehouseman, "You may have the pieces, they are no use to me"—that is the merchant's allowance—they are allowed by the merchants—the wharfinger does not have to make up any deficiency or loss.

COURT. Q. Was there any arrangement as to what should be done with these sweepings that were swept up from these floors? A. No more than putting them on the dust-heap.

JURY. Q. Do you think that Phillips was acting under the impression that he was entitled to those? A. I can't say what his impression was—the firm certainly had no knowledge of it; they did not recognise any waste except the merchants' perquisites—if the loss did not exceed a quarter per cent. the merchant did not object—I was associated with the late manager of the firm, and he would never allow anything of the kind in the shape of perquisites—I have spoken to some of the officers in the establishment on the subject of perquisites—if a new man was engaged he would not be told that no sweepings were allowed to be taken, because to allow perquisites would be giving them a carte blanche to sell what they liked—the dust on the heap was taken away by the parish contractor.

J. C. HUNT (re-examined). For aught I know the sweepings went to the Dust-heap; according to the account I had in June they did.


There were other indictments against the prisoner, which were postponed to the April Sessions.


before Mr. Common Serjeant.

30th January 1865
Reference Numbert18650130-268
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceNo Punishment > sentence respited

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268. WILLIAM PHILLIPS (28), and HENRY WARD (24) , Burglariously breaking and entering the dwelling-house of Charles Frederick Gunnis Ritzo, with intent to steal; to which they


Ward was farther charged with having been before convicted.

JOSEPH LAMBERT . I am a detective police-sergeant—I produce a certificate—(Read; Clerkenwell Sessions, January, 1861. Henry Thornton, convicted on his own confession of stealing watches and rings, and sentenced to Three Years' Penal Servitude)—I was present—Ward is the person—I saw him sentenced—I have known him ever since, and he was also tried for burglary in this Court last May, and acquitted.


The officer Lambert stated that Ward had been committed to Five Years' Penal Servitude, and broke out of prison and committed a burglary on the same night; and Thomas Barking, Police Inspector, stated that a case of three burglaries in Kennington had been remanded until after this trial, as there were footmarks in the gardens of the houses corresponding with the prisoners.— Judgment respited.

30th January 1865
Reference Numbert18650130-269
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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269. GEORGE FERRIS (19) , Stealing 2l. the moneys of Robert Morgan.

ROBERT MORGAN . I am a butcher, of High-street, Deptford—on 18th January, between 12 and 1 o'clock in the day, I left my shop, and on returning I heard a cry of "Stop thief"—I went to the desk where I had previously counted and piled up some silver, and found it scattered about—I scrambled it up and put it into the till, so that I cannot say how much I lost.

FREDERICK MORGAN . I am a brother of ‘the last witness—on 18th January I was coming from the slaughter-house into the shop, and saw the prisoner in the counting-house with a quantity of silver in each hand—directly he saw me he dropped it on the desk and said, "You may as well let me go, it will not do you any good"—I said, "No, I shall not"—I was just going to lay hold of him, when he made a rash out of the shop, and down a street opposite—I called "Stop thief," and he was caught—we brought him up Wellington-street into High-street, and gave him in custody.

Prisoner. Q. Can you swear I am the man who was in your shop? A. Yes; I never lost sight of you.

JAMES FINNIS (Policeman, 56 R). The prisoner was given into my custody about twenty yards from the shop—I took him back, searched him, but found nothing on him—I asked him where he lived—he said that that was what I should have to find out.

Prisoners Defence. A man came up and said that he believed I had been into the shop, stealing money—I said, "No, let mo go;" the policeman asked the butcher if he had lost anything, and he said, "No;" I was never in the shop, and know nothing about it.


He was further charged with having been before convicted at Maidstone, in July, 1863, in the name of George Jackson; to which he

PLEADED GUILTY.— Confined Eighteen Months.

30th January 1865
Reference Numbert18650130-270
VerdictGuilty > lesser offence

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270. WILLIAM GIBBS (43) , Feloniously cutting and wounding William McGuigan, with intent to do him some grievous bodily harm.

MR. COOK conducted the Prosecution.

WILLIAM MCGUIGAN . I am an inmate of Greenwich Union Workhouse—on 7th January, at 3 o'clock, I placed some food in a plate, close to the coal-box, and covered it with a cloth—all the able-bodied men under sixty were there—the prisoner, who is a cripple, was sitting close by with a chisel and a piece of wood—I said to him, "It is for your comfort and mine alike to keep the place clean"—he said, "I was here before your food was, and I will make a mess if I like—I said, "You will not make a mess over my food," and pushed the bit of wood out of his hand—he said, "Hold hard, if you please," and turned round and said, "Either you or me for it, I will stab you"—he stabbed me on the left breast with the chisel, and I fell senseless, saying, "Hold me up, I am stabbed"—I knew nothing more until I was in the Infirmary—I left there yesterday—I had never had any words with him—he was a stranger to me—I am suffering from the injury now.

THOMAS BEEZER . I am a labourer—on 7th January I was an inmate of the workhouse, and was in the young men's hall—I have heard McGuigan give his evidence; it is quite true.

WILLIAM STURTON . I am medical attendant at Greenwich workhouse—I was called there on 7th January, and saw the prosecutor—his shirt was saturated with blood, which was trickling from a wound on the left side of the breast, a quarter of an inch wide and a good half inch deep, corresponding with this chisel—I believe there was also internal hæmorrhage—he is still suffering from loss of blood—I had to administer large quantities of brandy to him to bring him to—the wound was not dangerous, but the loss of blood was serious—he was only released from the Infirmary yesterday.

JAMES DOLOHAN (Policeman, R 98). I took the prisoner, and charged him with stabbing William McGuigan—he made no answer—the master of the union gave him in custody; and I said, "Have you done this!"—he said, "Yes, I did"—the chisel was produced.

Prisoner. I never heard you ask whether I did it or not; I should not have answered such a question, knowing you had no right to ask it.

The prisoner produced a written defence, stating that the prosecutor endeavoured to turn him out of a seat which he had occupied all the morning; that they quarrelled and struggled together, and he inflicted the wound in self-defence.

GUILTY of unlawfully wounding.—Recommended to mercy by the prosecutor, being a cripple.

He received a good character.— Confined Three Months.

The following prisoners PLEADED GUILTY:

30th January 1865
Reference Numbert18650130-271
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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271. GEORGE SMITH (20), and CHARLES HIDDEN (21) , † to stealing 5 table-covers, value 55s., the property of Robert James Chaplin.— Confined Eighteen Months. And [Pleaded Guilty: See original trial image.]

30th January 1865
Reference Numbert18650130-272
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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272. JOHN ARCHER (20) , to breaking into the dwelling-house of Samuel Pitham, with intent to-steal; having also been convicted in October, 1863.— Seven Years' Penal Servitude. [Pleaded Guilty: See original trial image.]

Before Mr. Recorder.

30th January 1865
Reference Numbert18650130-273
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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273. MARGARET CHARLESS (26) , Stealing, on 9th January, 3 neck-handkerchiefs, and other handkerchief, value 20s., the property of David Davis.

MR. H. PALMER conducted the Prosecution.

GEORGE HENRY BAKER . I am a shopman in the employ of David Davis, of Green-end, Woolwich—on Monday afternoon, 9th January, the prisoner came and asked to be shown some black silk hand kerchiefs—I showed her

several, and saw a parcel of three, drawn to the shop side of the counter, where she was sitting, and disappear—I went and told Mr. Davis, and kept the prisoner in conversation—she asked for some pocket-handkerchiefs, and I saw some of them drawn off in the same way—she offered me a shilling less than I asked, and then walked towards the door, having bought nothing—she was going out when a constable, who was waiting outside, touched her, and told her he wanted her to go back into the shop—the next moment I saw these four handkerchiefs (produced) picked up—they are my master's property, and worth about 1l.—she was perfectly sober, but her breath smelt a little of spirits.

Prisoner. I was overcome with drink, and not used to it.

CHARLES WILDERSPIN (Policeman, R 268). I was called to Mr. Davis's shop, and stopped outside for a little time—the prisoner was pointed out to me, and I asked her to go back with me to the shop—she said, "All right"—I took these handkerchiefs from under her arm and threw them behind the counter—Mr. Davis picked them up and charged her with stealing them—she said, "I have got nothing, and I have not had anything"—I took her in custody—she had been drinking, but knew what she was about perfectly well.

The prisoner's statement before the Magistrate:—"I am guilty of taking them."

Prisoner's Defence. I only beg for mercy for the sake of my infant.

GUILTY .—She was further charged with having been before convicted at Clerkenwell in August, 1862, in the name of Mary Rogers; to which she

PLEADED GUILTY.**— Confined Eighteen Months.

30th January 1865
Reference Numbert18650130-274
VerdictGuilty > lesser offence
SentenceNo Punishment > sentence respited

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274. GEORGE CHARLES BEARD, (29) , Feloniously cutting and wounding James Vine, with intent to do him some grievous bodily harm., MESSRS. GIFFABD and BEASLEY conducted the prosecution, and, MR. LILLEY the Defence.

JAMES VINE . I am an assistant in the Greenwich County Court—on 16th January I was put in possession of the prisoner's house, 8, Lucas-street, Deptford, by John Bailey, the chief officer of the Court—this (produced) is my warrant to levy 12l. on the prisoner's goods due to William George Holloway—the prisoner was not there when I went; he came home at a little after 10—I was in the back kitchen—he said, "What do you do here!"—I Said, "I come for Mr. Holloway's account," and showed him the warrant—he said, "If you do not go out of the house directly I will knock you down with the poker"—I made my way to the door and asked him to let me out but he would not—he struck me on the head with the poker and knocked me back in my chair—when I came to myself I went to the front door, but could not get out—I said that I wanted to go to the doctor—I called his wife upstairs, and in a minute or two the prisoner came and let me out—my head was bleeding furiously.

Cross-examined. Q. Did he let himself in by a latch-key? A. Yes; he let me out in about a minute or two, as soon as he saw me bleeding, and went with me to a doctor—I went down to the station, and he went with me—he did not offer to make me any compensation—he said something, but I cannot say what; he took hold of my arm and led me down, and was at once taken in custody.

JAMES FREDERICK AYRES (Policeman, R 52). I was on duty at the station on 16th January, when the prisoner led Vine in—the prisoner said, "This man wants to give me in custody"—I said, "What for!"—he said, "For

doing this"—I saw that Vine was bleeding very much from a wound about three inches long, on the right side of his head—I fetched Dr. Smith, who dressed it, and took the prisoner in custody.

Cross-examined. Q. Was he discharged on bail? A. Not the first time; he was the second—I did not measure the wound—the doctor cut the hair away—it was a big wound, and swelled considerably.

GUILTY of unlawfully wounding.—Judgment Respited.


Before Mr. Recorder.

30th January 1865
Reference Numbert18650130-275
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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275. GEORGE HENLEY (23) , Robbery on William Batey, and stealing 1l. 5s. his money.

MR. WOOD conducted the Prosecution.

WILLIAM BATEY . I am a smith living at 4, Perry's-place, Cornwall-road, Borough—on Saturday, the 21st, the evening of the fog, I was walking near the Victoria Theatre—it was very foggy—I asked the prisoner the way to Cornwall-road; I am positive it was him—I saw him by the lamps of a public-house, as plainly as I see you; I was close to him—he told me I was in the right direction—he directed me along and then followed me perhaps twenty rods—he then stopped me in the road, pulled me by the arm, turned round before me, pulled open my coat, and put something in my face—this was against the railway-bridge in the Cornwall-road; not under the bridge—I saw him perfectly, and knew him again; it was the same man that had directed me—he put his hand in my pocket and took out 25s. that I had there—I could not swear whether it was a handkerchief that he put in my face; something was put, a handkerchief was found and a knife by the side of my money that was dropped—I don't know whether I went down or not, for I was in a hurry to get hold of him to get my money—I expect I did go down, for my side was hurt—I felt stupefied for the moment and helpless, I could not do anything—I had not the power to follow him for the moment—I saw him turn round and run away—I saw 1s. 6d. and a half-crown, and some halfpence picked up—25s. was taken out of my pocket, all in silver—I gave a description of the prisoner to a police-constable, and he went after him directly and took him—the policeman came to my house the same night and took me to identify him—he was with some policemen disguised—I pointed him out and was positive he was the man.

Prisoner. Q. Were you intoxicated? A. I had had a little to drink—I am not in the habit of drinking—I had had a little between 4 and 7, but there was not much the matter with me then; that happened about half-past 10—I wag quite sensible enough to know the time and to know you.

THOMAS PHELAN (Policeman, L 170). On the Saturday night in question between 10 and 11, I was in the New Cut, and saw the prosecutor and prisoner—they walked past me down the Cornwall-road—I noticed the prisoner and can swear he is the man—I knew him previously, by sight and by name—he had hold of the prosecutor by the left arm—about twenty minutes afterwards the prosecutor gave me a description of the man who had robbed him—in pursuance of that description I searched for the prisoner, and took him into custody about half an hour or three-quarters of an hour afterwards—he had 5s. in his pocket.

Prisoner. Q. What distance was I from you when, as you represent, you saw me with the prosecutor? A. About five yards—you were passing along

the side of a public-house at the time where there were twenty-one gas burners alight.

COURT. Q. What have you there? A. The money I found, and this handkerchief was picked up that night just by the spot; it smelt strongly of something—the prosecutor was rather the worse for liquor—I observed that when he passed with the prisoner.

HENRY HOUGHTON (Policeman, L 159). On the Saturday night in question, I was standing in the Cornwall-road—I heard a fall—I went across the road, and saw the prosecutor standing—he gave me some information of being robbed, and said the man had just gone towards the Waterloo Station—I ran up the street to see if I could find him—I afterwards received a description from my brother-constable, in consequence of which I went after the prisoner—I found him at home, at his own house—I told him he was wanted for a robbery on the prosecutor—he said he knew nothing about it, it must be a mistake—he was asked at the station how much money he had got—he said, "About 2s. 7d."—he was searched by Phelan, and a two-shilling piece, half-crown, and six-pennyworth of halfpence was found upon him—this cloth I received from the prosecutor on the Monday morning following—it was very dirty—I would not say it had any stuff upon it.

Prisoner's Defence. I had been to St. Bartholomew's Hospital on this evening, to visit a man who had been injured by the falling of the cornice at Alderman Waterlow's; at the same time Alderman Lawrence was there visiting the sufferers. I had only just returned from there; it was very foggy indeed; it took me some time to get home. I went to meet the suffering man's wife, and saw her part of the way home, and came down the Cut into the Waterloo-road. I had not returned very long before the constable came and apprehended me for this offence. I am as innocent of it as any one of you.


The prisoner PLEADED GUILTY to a previous conviction at Surrey Sessions in May, 1859.— Confined Eighteen Months.

30th January 1865
Reference Numbert18650130-276
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceNo Punishment > sentence respited

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276. HARRIET WILKINS (21) , PLEADED GUILTY to Unlawfully concealing the birth of her child.— Judgment Respited.

Before Mr. Common Serjeant

30th January 1865
Reference Numbert18650130-277
VerdictGuilty > unknown; Guilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment; Imprisonment > penal servitude

Related Material

277. JOHN LAWSON (22), and THOMAS OSBORNE (28) , Burglariously breaking and entering the dwelling-house of Frederick Whitelock, and stealing therein 5 scarves, his property.

MR. WOOD conducted the Prosecution.

FREDERICK WHITELOCK . I am a draper, of 175, Great Dover-Street, Newington—on the evening of 2d January, I closed my shop about 9 o'clock, and at 11 o'clock I barred the doors and shutters, and went to bed—I was disturbed about a quarter to 4 o'clock by a policeman—my lodger went down first, and then I went down, and the policeman told me something—I saw two shutters down, the window smashed, and a portion of my goods on the pavement—the shutter-bar was bent—I missed seven pieces of silk velvet, two pieces of ribbon, a feather, and 5 plaid scarves, which were safe when I went to bed—I saw one scarf and a piece of velvet at the station—the house is in the parish of St. Mary, Newington.

JOHN MABLEY (Policeman, M 267). About half-past 3 o'clock on the morning of 2d January, I was on duty in the Dover-road, and saw two men standing on the pavement near the shop which was broken into, and a man on the opposite side—the two went ever to the one, and they walked away

—I pursued them to the top of Brunswick-street, having heard a rap at the shutters, but did not overtake them—I did not know that they had done anything—I went back to the shop, and found that it had been broken into—a bonnet-shape was lying on the pavement—I called the prosecutor.

Osborne. Q. Will you swear that I was one of the men? A. No, I was not near enough; but I gave information to 493 A.

JAMES YELLOW (Policeman, A 493). About half-past 3 o'clock on 2d January, I was in Brunswick-street, and saw the two prisoners and another distinctly—I was within twenty yards of them, and knew them by sight, having seen them before—Mabley spoke to me after they had passed, and from what he said I followed them down Brunswick-street into St. George's-street, New Kent-road—I pursued them over a mile into Brent's-court, Borough—I was going down the court when Osborne bolted out of it, and a constable who was in front of me stopped him—I had not lost sight of them—I distinctly swear Osborne is one of the men—Lawson escaped over a wall at the other end of the court, and No. 360 sprung his rattle—I distinctly saw Lawson, and am sure he is the man.

Lawson. Q. How came you to lose sight of me? A. Because I went after the other prisoner—I had a good view of you all the way, and you passed me.

Osborne. Q. If you knew I was a thief, and was coming up the court, would you allow me to pass? A. I should have stopped you if I had had the opportunity.

JOSEPH JACKSON (Policeman, M 295). On 26th January, I was on duty near St. Saviour's church, and heard a rattle springing—I saw Lawson running, pursued him, and got up within a yard of him—he undid the front of his trousers, took a piece of velvet out, and threw it at my feet—I immediately struck him, secured him, and found this scarf (produced) in his pocket—he said, "The other man has got the lob"—that means the bulk of it Lawson's Defence. I met a fish-carrier, who I know; he had two parcels, and said, "I do not want to get these wet." He put one inside his trousers, and I put the other inside mine. There was a taller man with him, and when we got into the court he said, "You must throw that velvet away. To tell you the truth, I did not come by it right." I threw it away, but I did not throw the scarf away, as he made me a present of it.

Osborne's Defence. I had been to the Surrey theatre, and was stopped by a policeman. Nobody gave me in charge. I was kept standing there for ten minutes before I was taken to the station. If I had been a thief, I should have got over the wall also. No property was found on me.

LAWSON.— GUILTY .*— Confined Eighteen Months.

OSBORNE.— GUILTY .**— Seven Years' Penal Servitude.

30th January 1865
Reference Numbert18650130-278
VerdictNot Guilty > no evidence

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278. JOHN DRING (52), and EDWIN GOLLOP (55) , Unlawfully conspiring together to defraud John Hunt of a mare, a chaise, and a set of harness.

MR. LEWIS for the Prosecution offered no evidence.



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