Old Bailey Proceedings.
23rd September 1861
Reference Number: t18610923

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Old Bailey Proceedings front matter.
23rd September 1861
Reference Numberf18610923

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Sessions Paper.








Short-hand Writers to the Court,








Law Publishers to the Queen's Most Excellent Majesty.




On the Queen's Commission of



The City of London,





Held on Monday, September 23d, 1861, and following days.

BEFORE the Right Hon. WILLIAM CUBITT , Lord Mayor of the City of London; Sir John Barnard Byles, Knt., one of the Justices of Her Majesty's Court of Common Pleas; Sir Henry Singer Keating, Knt., one other of the Justices of Her Majesty's Court of Queen's Bench; Sir James Duke, Bart, M.P.; Sir Francis Graham Moon, Bart, Aldermen of the said city; Russell Gurney, Esq., Q.C. Recorder of the said City; Warren Stormes Hale, Esq.; Benjamin Samuel Phillips, Esq.; Edward Condor, Esq.; James Clarke Lawrence, Esq.; and Thomas Dakin, Esq.; Aldermen of the said City; and Robert Malcolm Kerr, Esq. Judge of the Sheriffs' Court; Her Majesty's Justices of Oyer and Terminer and General Gaol Delivery of Newgate, holden for the said City, and Judges of the Central Criminal Court.









A star (*) denotes that prisoners have been previously in custody—two stars (**) that they have been more than once in custody—an obelisk (†) that they are known to be the associates of bad characters—the figures after the name in the indictment denote the prisoner's age.


OLD COURT, Monday, September 23d, 1861.


Before Mr. Recorder.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-729
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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729. WILLIAM BALMANNO (28), was indicted for stealing the some of 13l. 10s., 1l., and 1l., the property of William Rawson Turner, and others, his masters.

MR. DICKIE conducted the Prosecution.

WILLIAM RAWSON TURNER . I am a solicitor, in partnership with Mr. Charles Preston, at 16, Water-lane, Great Tower-street—Mr. Preston does not live in London—the prisoner was in our service as managing clerk, at a salary of 130l. a year—on 13th June I had some letters of administration to take out, and I gave him two Post-office orders, which I had received from the country, and 1l. in cash, desiring him to pay the duty and get the grant of administration—this was in the presence of another clerk—I gave the prisoner 1l. in cash, and the other clerk gave him, I think, 3l. 10s.—in consequence of something that came to my knowledge, I afterwards referred to the prisoner's books—I have his petty cash disbursement book here (producing it)—on 13th June, I find an entry of 1l., as paid for stamping bond, and 11l., 0s. 4d. paid for the grant, Court fees 16s., 6d., affidavit 2s. 6d., and receipt 1s.; and on 24th June, there is an entry of 1l. for stamping bond—these entries are in the prisoner's writing; he balanced every week—I have not got the papers here, I have since passed them—on 1st or 2d August, finding the money had not been paid, I spoke to the prisoner—I accused him of not having paid the money—I cannot recollect the words I used—I called his attention to these sums, as not being paid at the time—he made some evasive reply; I cannot recollect what it was; he then left the office, and I never saw him afterwards till he was in custody—I then received a letter from him—this is it—it is in his writing (This letter bore no date.; it asserted that he had committed no fraud, that he had lost the money, and implored the prosecutor, for the sake of his wife, not to proceed against him)—this other letter is also in the prisoner's writing—it is addressed to

Mr. Leverack, one of our clerks (This was dated 13th August, explaining that the money was lost out of a hole in his pocket, entreating that he might be allowed to refund the amount, and stating that he had already put by 10l. out of his salary for that purpose)—this letter was handed to cue in August—I had heard nothing about the money being lost from 13th June—there is an entry in this book, on 20th July, of "Turner's commission—paid, stamp, 1l."—I have since paid that myself—the entry is in the prisoner's own writing.

Cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH. Q. Was the letter to Leverack handed to you before you had any conversation with the prisoner about this matter? A. No; he had then absented himself for a week—I had a conversation with the prisoner about the 1st or 2d August—he did not then tell me that he had lost the money that he had obtained for the Post-office orders—he said he would fetch the papers, and he went out of the office and I never saw him again until he was in custody—he did not say, "I have been guilty of no offence, sir; I have lost the money"—he might have said he had lost the money, I think he did—there had been no negociation between the prisoner and myself for the payment of the money on a certain day before he was taken into custody: he wrote to me, and informed me that he had lost the money—this is the letter; it is dated 12th August—it was written previous to that which has been read (This letter stated that the prisoner was compelled to leave the office on account of an attack of diarrhoea, but that he hoped to he well enough next day to attend to business)—the prisoner was given into custody on the 19th—he wrote roe a letter between the 13th and 19th, which I produced at the police-court—no proposition was made or assented to by me, that if the money was paid by a certain day I should be satisfied—a gentleman called after he was in custody—I did not have any interview with any person on his behalf before he was taken into custody, nor did my partner or any person connected with our firm, to my knowledge—the conversation I had with the prisoner was the day he left the office—I told him to bring the papers; I said, if he paid the duties and brought me the papers I should be satisfied.

MR. DICKIE. Q. Did you hear anything about the loss of this money until you had talked about taking proceedings? A. When I discovered that these sums had not been paid, I taxed him with it; I had never heard a word of it till then.

COURT. Q. Did you obtain the papers? A. I did, from him; I think it was after he was in custody.

GEORGE LEVERACK . I am clerk to Messrs. Preston and Turner—on 13th June, I was present when some instructions were given to the prisoner, and he received some money—I received, from Mr. Turner, two Post-office orders for 52l. each, which I handed to the prisoner, and in addition I gave him 3l. 10s. in gold—that was to pay the grant and the duties on administration—about 12th August I received a letter from the prisoner, which I handed to Mr. Turner.

Cross-examined. Q. Did that letter convey the first intimation to you that this money had not been paid? A. Yes; and I then communicated the fact to Mr. Turner—I had previously applied to the Court of Probate, and found that the duties had not been paid—I did not communicate to the prisoner that I had made that discovery, but I left a memorandum on his desk, which he saw, and from that moment he absented himself from the office; it was subsequently that I received the letter—the prisoner was at the office for about two days after the receipt of that letter—I had some conversation with him about the papers—he has stated throughout that he

lost the money—he stated that he was endeavouring to raise money to pay it; I do not know that to be the case.

WILLIAM JARVIS . I am a detective officer of the City of London—I took the prisoner into custody on 19th August—I asked him whether his name was not William Balmanno; he said it was—I said I was instructed by Messrs. Preston and Turner to take him into custody for embezzling 13l. 4s.; he said he thought it was very cruel of them; had they waited until Wednesday, he should have paid the money—he further stated that he had lost the money and he missed it when he got into the stamp-office, close by the probate-office; that he went into the shop, and there found that he had lost the money. GUILTY .— Three Years' Penal Servitude.

The prosecutor stated that, since the prisoner's committal, he had discovered other instances of his dishonesty to the amount of 17l., that he had left his previous employment deficient in his cash, that he took him in order to afford him an opportunity of retrieving his character, and that he had only been two days in his service when he commenced robbing him.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-730
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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730. GEORGE KING (22) , Stealing 1 watch, value 7l., the property of Barnet Isaacs, from his person.

MR. COOPER conducted the Prosecution.

BARNET ISAACS I reside at 14, Stamford-street, Blackfriars-road—I am in no business now—on Saturday afternoon, 24th August, about half-past 8 o'clock, I was on Blackfriars-bridge—my attention was called to a number of persons looking over the parapet of the bridge, and out of curiosity I cast my eyes over the parapet—at the time I was doing so, I felt a tug at my right waistcoat pocket; I had a watch there, attached to a guard chain round my neck—I immediately turned sharp round, and saw the prisoner at my right-side, and his hand was falling from my right side where the watch was—I immediately said to him, "You scoundrel, you have robbed me?" the words were no sooner out of my mouth than he started off—I followed, and raised a cry of stop thief—he had got a very few paces when I distinctly saw him drop the watch—I stopped and picked it up—I then lost sight of him—some of the bye standers told me something, and I found he had got on the other side of the bridge, and was stopped by a gentleman who had him by the collar—it was all the work of a few seconds; I am satisfied the prisoner is the man, for as I turned sharp round upon him I saw him full in the face—when I came up to him I accused him of taking my watch; he looked me full in the face, and said, "I have not got it," with all the sang froid possible—I said, "No, I know you have not got it; you had it, and I picked it up"—he then said, "I hope you are not going to lock me up?" an officer came up and took him to the station—this (produced) is my watch.

ROBERT MCLARDY . I am a compositor, living at 37, Stamford-street—on 24th August I was on Blackfriars-bridge, leaning over the bridge—I heard a cry of "Stop thief!"—I turned round and saw the prosecutor running after the prisoner; I joined in the pursuit—I saw the prisoner throw the watch from him; a gentleman picked it up—I followed the prisoner, caught him, and held him; he was never out of my sight.

Prisoner's Defence. I was passing over Blackfriars bridge and saw a number of persons running, they ran past me; I stood with my back against the bridge, when this gentleman came up and accused me of stealing the watch; I never saw it.

GUILTY .**— Four Years' Penal Servitude.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-731
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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731. ROBERT BUNTING (32) , Embezzling 1s., the money of Josiah Chapman, his master.

MR. POLAND conducted the Prosecution.

JOSIAH CHAPMAN . I reside at the Gate-house tavern, at High gate—the prisoner was in my service as ostler, and had been so for eleven months; it was his duty to receive money from customers during the day, for baiting horses and things of that kind, and to hand over at night the money he had received during the day—he used to account to me regularly every night, not the following morning—on Saturday night, 7th September, about twenty minutes to 12, he came to me to account for the money he had received during that day; I heard him tell the barmaid that he had taken 1s. 6d. in the stable—I immediately went to him and told him that was not all the money he had taken—he said it was—I asked how he could make that out, enumerating to him at the same time the number of vehicles that had been in the stables on that day to my knowledge, which was a carriage and pair, and a gig belonging to the drill sergeant, which would be 1s. 6d. and 6d.—he then gave me another sixpence—I asked him if that was all the money he had received; he distinctly said yes—I then told him that his conduct had been so bad upon previous occasions in embezzling money from me, or trying to do so, that I would not put up with it any longer, and I gave him a month's notice to leave—I had seen him about 8 or 9 o'clock on the Saturday evening, he was then perfectly sober, and so he was when I had the conversation with him—in consequence of what Mrs. Chapman said to me that night, I asked the prisoner what he had done with the money that he had received for one particular horse and gig, with two gentlemen in it—he said there had been no horse and gig in the stables—he declared he had not received any money for it, and had never seen it—next morning I sent for a policeman, and asked the prisoner for the money he had received for the horse and gig; he would not acknowledge having received it until he saw the policeman coming round the corner—he than tendered me a shilling, and said, "Well, I did take it last night; take 9d. sir"—I said, "You received a shilling, why tender me 9d.; even in the face of a policeman you want to swindle me three times in one night"—and I told him to be off at once—I asked why he did not give it me last night—he said he was keeping it for me last night—I sent for the policeman and gave him into custody in the afternoon.

Cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH. Q. Has he not sometimes accounted to you in the morning? A. Never to my knowledge, with the exception it may have been of a horse at bait for the whole of the night; and when the gentleman has come to take it away, he has paid it early in the morning—he has never accounted in the morning for what he had received the previous day—I had no particular character with him, I took him with the rest of the servants when I went into the house—he had been in the service of the proprietor who I succeeded—I have since heard that he had lived there four years—I swear that he was perfectly sober when I had the conversation with him at 12 o'clock, and he appeared to me to be coat 8 o'clock—him manner at 12 o'clock was not more strange than it was at other times when I have caught him embezzling money—he used to stand with his head down, and look very sorry for what he had done, and I have received that money and condoned the offence—he always appeared sullen when I found him out in trying to embezzle money from me—I have charged him before with stealing money from me and kept him afterwards—I have accused him of it in the presence of my wife and barmaid—they are not here—the prisoner

is not entitled to threepence out of the shilling charged for a horse having hay only—my charge is nine pence for a horse standing at hay, a shilling for corn—I know nothing about what the ostler has—it was not arranged that he should have threepence out of the shilling—he had no business to charge a shilling—it was robbing me and my customers also.

MR. POLAND. Q. Was Mr. Child your solicitor before the Magistrate? A. Yes; I mentioned this conversation to him.

HENRY TILLEY . I am a labourer, residing at Highgate—on Saturday, 7th September, I was at Mr. Chapman's yard, I took a horse and chaise in with two gentlemen—I received a shilling for it and gave it to the prisoner, and the gentlemen have me threepence for myself—I received the shilling in the afternoon part—I gave it to the prisoner between 7 and 8 at night, in the stable.

Cross-examined. Q. When you saw him then, was he drunk or sober? A. He was a little in drink, but not drunk—I did not tell Mr. Chapman that he was intoxicated (The witness's deposition being read, stated: "I fancied the prisoner was intoxicated when he came to me for the shilling—I think he was not sober at the time—he was intoxicated")—that is the truth.

HENRY HODGES . On Saturday, 7th September, I put up a horse and gig at the the Gate-house tavern—I paid Tilley a shilling for the bait, and gave him threepence for himself—he was acting as ostler in charge of the stables—I did not see anything of the prisoner—the charge of a shilling was made to me.

JOHN TOWNSEND (Policeman, S 358). On Saturday morning, 8th September, I was sent for to Mr. Chapman's—he told the prisoner in my presence that he had made inquiries and ascertained that he had received a shilling for a horse and chaise on the previous evening—the prisoner said, "Yes; here it is for you," putting his hand in his pocket and producing a shilling, "Will you take the ninepence?"—Mr. Chapman declined to do so—I took him into custody at 5 o'clock in the afternoon.

The prisoner's statement before the Magistrate was read at follows: "I have been in the habit of paying money in at the bar in the morning as well as the evening—I was rather the worse for liquor, and I left paying the money till I should see Tilley to know whether it was for corn or hay, one would have been a shilling and the other ninepence.

The prisoner received a good character.


23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-732
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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732. FREDERICK STONE (31), and ABRAHAM WILLIAMS (17) , Unlawfully assaulting William Harrod and other police-constables, in the execution of their duty (see page 309).

MR. ORRIDGE conducted the Prosecution.

HENRY COX . I am a surgeon, at 4, Gray's-inn-lane—on 2d July, about a quarter to 8 in the evening, the prisoners came to my shop and endeavoured to utter counterfeit coin—I gave them into the custody of Harrod and Turner, two police-constables.

WILLIAM HARROD (Policeman, G 201). On the evening of 2d July, I went to Mr. Cox's shop in Gray's inn-lane—Williams was given into my custody—I told him he was charged with being concerned with the other prisoner in attempting to pass a counterfeit florin, and he must come with me to the station—he went a few yards, and then said he would not go without he was allowed to go by himself—I told him I could not allow him to go by himself, that he was in my custody and he had better go quietly—

he then threw himself on the ground—he commenced very violently kicking—195 came up and helped to lift him up, and persuaded him to go quietly—he then went for a few yards and then again commenced kicking—he kicked me against the groin with his heel—he said at the time that he would rupture me—Turner, 157, then came to my assistance—we want a few yards further and he again commenced kicking, and he kicked Turner in the legs—he then again commenced kicking me, and did so repeatedly from there to the station—Bulger and Johnson also came to my assistance—they kicked Johnston in the face, and Bulger in the legs, when he was attempting to pick up my hat and trying to assist me—we ultimately succeeded in getting them to the station—I had four wounds on my right leg from the kicks, which Mr. Cox saw afterwards—I was also kicked on the left arm, my hand was swollen very much—I was disabled for a week-Stone was following up behind in the custody of Mc William and Briggs it was Stone that kicked me on my left arm.

JAMES MCWILLIAM (City-policeman, 224). Oil 2d July, I took Stoat from Mr. Cox, and tried to take him to the station—when we had got a for yards outside he began making a great resistance—I had got hold of him with one hand, and had the counterfeit coin in the other—I asked 195 to lay hold of him while I put it in my pocket—he did so, and they commenced kicking 195; he tried to kick me, but did not succeed—the prisoner Williams was a few yards off, and was kicking away at me—I heard Stoat say to Briggs, "I will rupture you"—I do not recollect hearing them speak or call to one another in the struggle—they were sometimes almost close together—they were both struggling and kicking the constables.

JOHN TURNER (Policeman, G 157). On 2d July, I helped my brother constables with the two prisoners—I went to Harrod's assistance; no sooner had I laid hold of Williams than he commenced kicking me and almost kicked me off my legs—Stone was close behind at the time; he managed to get closer to me, and kicked me a very violent blow on the knee, at the time I had hold of Williams—he kept on continually kicking me all the way to the station—I saw the witnesses Johnson and Bulger—I saw Williams kick Johnson a tremendous blow at the side of the cheek—I was disabled for about a fortnight from the kicks on my legs—when we got to the station, and just as I was going into the station, Williams kicked at me a tremendous kick at the side of the leg, at the groin.

Stone. Q. When did you first point out any wounds? A. The same night; I did not give evidence the next day because I was disabled.

Williams. Q. Have you any certificate here or anything to show that you had these wounds on your leg? A. No, I have not.

DENNIS BULGER . I am a French polisher, and live at 1, Collyer-court, Golden-lane—on 2d July, I went to the assistance of the police in Gray's-inn-lane—Stone kicked me once violently whilst I was assisting the policeman, in the joint of the knee.

JOHN JOHNSON . I am a messenger, and live at 3, Margaret-street, Clerkenwell—on the evening of 2d July, I helped the police in taking the two prisoners in Gray's-inn-lane—Williams kicked me twice in the mouth as I was picking up the policeman's hat—they were both very violent and both attacking the police.

HENRY COX (re-examined). I examined the constable Harrod the next day—I found four very severe wounds on the right leg, and two on the left—his arm was also injured by a blow which he must have received—Bulger had also received an injury in the left groin from a kick.

Stone's Defence. They were kicking me all the way to the station; I did not kick any one of them; I was on the ground almost all the time; they were continually kicking me, and would not allow me to walk quietly; one policeman on each side of me holding me up and others were hitting me about.

William's Defence. I am about seventeen years old, and here were five or six men; do you think it likely it would take five policemen to take me to the station.

GUILTY .— Nine Months Each, to commence from the expiration of the previous sentence.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-733
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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733. CHRISTOPHER DIGNUM (37) , Stealing 7 canvas bags, the property of our lady the Queen; to which he

PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Six Months.

NEW COURT.—Monday, September 23d, 1861.


Before Robert Malcolm Kerr, Esq.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-734
VerdictsGuilty > pleaded guilty

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734. FREDERICK GOLDING (17) , Forging, on 5th July, an order for the payment of 1l. 7s.; also, on 11th July, an order for the payment of 1l. 8s. 6d., and on 7th September, an order for the payment of 19s. 6d. with intent to defraud; to which he

PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-735
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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735. WILLIAM JOHN NEWBY (25) , Stealing 30l. in money, the property of John Kearns and others, his masters.

MR. GIFFARD conducted the Prosecution.

TIMOTHY MURPHY . I am a labourer in the employment of Messrs. Kearns and Co.—the prisoner was a clerk in their service—on 16th August I was on board the ship Ada in the London Docks—I saw the prisoner there—he told me that he was there to pay the freight of the goods, and to check the weights—he told me to go to the prosecutor's office for 80l. to pay the freight—I went, and when I got there I found that the money had been sent—I went back to the ship, and the prisoner then said that he had received the 80l.—I did not see him at the prosecutor's premises after that—he remained on the ship till 7 o'clock that evening—I saw him pay away the 50l. note—after we left the ship I was in company with him till we came to Cannon-street, City, and after that I did not see him till he was taken in custody—it was a little after 7 o'clock in the evening that I last saw him.

FRANCIS MCDONALD . I was a clerk in Messrs. Kearns and Co.'s service—Mr. John Kearns was one of the partners—on 16th August, I received from one of the head clerks a cheque on Messrs, Glynn & Co. for 80l. to cash—I cashed it, and received for it a 50l. note, 20l. note, 5l. note, and 5l. in gold—I took that money to the prisoner, who was then on board the Ada in the London Docks, and gave it to him—I am acquainted with his writing—this letter (produced) is in his writing (This was a letter addressed by the prisoner to the prosecutors, stating, as the reason of his absence, that an the previous Thursday he had carried the balance of the money received from them in his pocket-book, and afterwards missed it; that he vainly tried to raise the amount

which he had lost, as he could not face them without it, but hoped to replace the money; that this was the first moment he had been able to communicate with them having just risen from a severeillness occasioned by anxiety; that he had been an officer, and his captain would testify to his incapability of and a crime as he felt they must think him guilty of).

CAMPBELL HARDY . I am a clerk to Glynn and Co.—on 16th August I cashed this cheque (produced) for 80l—I gave in change a 50l. note, "No 73,773, dated April 9th, 1861, a 20l. note, No. 52,842, dated 8th July, 1861, a 5l. note, No. 71,805, dated May 3d, 1861, and 5l. in cash.

RICHARD ADYE BAILY . I am clerk in the accountant's bank note-office in the Bank of England—I produce the three notes referred to by the last witness, a 50l. note, 20l. note and 5l. note.

THOMAS O'CONNELL . I keep the Oxford and Cambrige supper room, 223, Piccadilly—I changed this 5l. note for the prisoner on 17th August last—a young woman, named Ellen Graham, was with him at the time.

Prisoner. Q. Did I tender the note myself? A. She tendered she note, but I changed it for you; at your request.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. How do you know it was at his request? A. Because I was present and heard him ask her.

ISAAC ISAACS . I keep Sally's, 29, Haymarket—I changed this 20l. note on the night of 16th August lost, for Mr. Newby—I knew him—I believe Ellen Graham was with him.

Prisoner. Q. Was I sober? A. Quite.

THOMAS MCDONALD . I live at 101, Westmoreland-street, Pimlico—the prisoner lodged with me—I found this pocket-book (produced) on the table in the drawing-room—I and another gentleman occupied that room, and Mr. Newby was there at the time.

COURT. Q. Do you know it to be his pocket-book? A. Yes—I found it on Wednesday morning the 21st.

Prisoner. Q. Was not I very ill when I came to your house? A. I believe you were drunk—I am aware that you have been trying by every means to raise the money while you have been with me—I have tried myself to raise the money for you.

CHARLES JAMES LAURENCE . I am clerk to Smith, Simpson and Co. at 75, Gracechurch-street, ship-brokers—on 16th August, I was on board the ship Ada, receiving freight—the prisoner was there—I received a 50l. note from him, and gave him this receipt (produced) for 48l. 8s. 3d. and as I O U for 1l. 11s. 9d. the balance.

JAMES BRETT . I am a detective officer of the City of London policeforce—this pocket-book (produced) was given me by Thomas McDonald on 3d September—I found in it this receipt, and also a bill of lading belonging to the ship Ada.

JOHN KEARNS . I am a partner in the firm—on 16th August the prison had been in our service about six weeks I think—I received the letter that has been read, from the prisoner, about a week or ten days after the 16th.

ELLEN GRAHAM . I know the prisoner—I was with him on Friday, 16th August last, at half-past 12 at night—I received from 4l. to 4l. 10s. from him—he did not give me anything that he purchased, excepting some. trifling things that he bought on Monday—he was with me from the Friday till the following Monday; a few hours of the Monday—I remember handing the 5l. note to a witness who has been examined, to be changed—the prisoner gave me that note to mind—I remember the changing the 20l. note to Isaacs; I was present.

Prisoner. Q. Was I sober? A. On Friday you were intoxicated—I said that you were very intoxicated during the whole time I was with you; but how you got so I did not know—you had from 10s. 6d. to 12s. 6d. when you left me—you had been vomiting a little before you left my place.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. Where did he get the drink from? A. It was sent out for, and money was sent for it—he got it at Connor's and Isaacs'.

HENRY SAUNDERS . I am a superintendent of police—I took the prisoner—a gentleman named Russell pointed him out, having a warrant for his apprehension for robbing Mr. Kearcs—the prisoner was driving in fourwheeled pony-chaise in High-street, Margate, between 6 and 7 o'clock in the evening—three others were with him; two appeared to be young gentlemon, and one was a sailor.

Prisoner. Q. Did not I state something when I was taken into custody? A. Yes; you said that you had had the money, and had come to Margate for the purpose of obtaining it from a friend of yours, for the purpose of making it good to Mr. Kearns—you wrote a letter to Mr. Hudson—I did not see him come to the station—I heard that he came there.

Prisoner's Defence. I left the ship Ada on, I think, Thursday; I paid as much of the freight as I could, and had a balance left in my hands of 30l.; I went to my lodging with the full intention of putting the money in a drawer, but I went away in a hurry and forgot to take the money out of my pocket. I then went up to Oxford-street, had supper, and then went down to the Haymarket; whilst there I went into Mr. Isaac's and met Miss Graham; I recollect being there and drinking—besides what I had from Mr. Kearns, I had about 3l. and a few shillings in my pocket, of my own; from that time to the following Monday, I was in such a state that I was not master of myself during any part of the time. On the Tuesday I left Miss Graham, having only 10s. in my pocket; how the other went I cannot tell; I had a slight attack of delirium tremens, and I went to Mr. Makiva, a friend, to ask his advice, being very unhappy; in a day or two afterwards, when I got better, I wrote a letter to Mr. Kearns. As to the bill of lading, I most solemnly swear I did not know it was in the pocket-book; I then wrote to Mr. Hudson, a gentleman who was stopping at Margate; I knew an old sailor down there who knew me and my family very well for many years; I wrote to him to search Mr. Hudson out; I got rather anxious at the end of the week; Mr. Makiva thought I had better go down myself and see after it; he went down with me; we missed the train that we were going by and took the steam-packet; when we got there we went to the Ship hotel and had something. I saw the sailor, and he told me that his mate had taken the letter to Mr. Hudson, who gave him a shilling, and said all right, be would attend to it. We then took a trap, intending to go and see Mr. Hudson and then to catch the train to come back directly to London to Mr. Kearns; to show that I had no intention of taking the money, the day before that I had 120l. of Mr. Kearns in my possession, and the next day probably I should have had a great deal more. Mr. McDonald can prove that I started for Margate on the Sunday morning; Whilst I was at the station-house at Margate, Mr. Hudson came to see me with his cheque-book in his hand, but the officer that was with me, not knowing the case, would not let him see me.

Witnesses for the Defence.

THOMAS MCDONALD . We went down to Margate on the Sunday after the 18th—I heard you consulting with Mr. Makiva about going down to

get the money—it was the Sunday that you were taken in custody—you did not leave my house previously to that.

COURT. Q. Had he been living at your house up to then? A. Yes—he was reading and writing all that time.

Prisoner to HENRY SAUNDERS. Q. You heard the evidence that the sailor gave? A. Yes—I took the prisoner in custody on 1st September (The deposition of Thomas Watler was here read as follows: "I am a mariner, living at Margate, and am coxswain of the lifeboat; I have known the prisoner, and everybody belonging to him for some time; I received a letter from him three or four days ago, which contained another letter sealed up; it was addressed to a gentleman named Hudson; the letter to me informed me where to find him; I believed he received the letter, but my shipmate took it to him; of course I do not know what it contained").

DONALD MAKIVA . I live at 101, Westmorland-street—McDonald's house—you expressed a great desire to go down to Margate to see your godfather, in order to get some money from him to pay Mr. Kearns the money which you had either lost or stolen—you were very ill indeed while you were at the house with me—you tried every means, as far as I could tell, to get the money.

COURT. Q. Did you hear him say a great deal about the money? A. Yes, a great deal; he could not sleep at night.

Prisoner. Q. Did you pay all the expenses of going to Margate? A. I did—I heard Watler say that he gave the letter to Mr. Hudson, and that Mr. Hudson said it would be all right—you told me that the moment you received the money you should go to Mr. Kearns—we were going up to Mr. Hudson, in the pony-chaise, at the moment you were taken—we took the chaise in order to get back to the station.

Cross-examined by MR. GIFFARD. Q. Did not he tell you he had spent his employer's money, and was anxious to get some one to lend it to him to pay it back again? A. He did—he said he had lost it; that he must have been drugged or robbed, that it was impossible for him to have spent it—he did not exactly say that he had spent it.

GUILTY .— Four Years' Penal Servitude.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-736
VerdictGuilty > lesser offence

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736. WILLIAM HARTLEY, alias SELWAY (19) , Feloniously breaking and entering the dwelling-house of James Barry, and stealing therein 1 bowl, value 6d., 12 postage stamps, and 1 coat, value 10s., his property.

MR. GRESHAM conducted the Prosecution.

THOMAS HARWOOD . I am under-warehouseman at Messrs. James Berry and Co., Queenhithe, wholesale stationers—their warehouse is in the parish of St. Michael's, Queenhithe—I have charge of the keys of the warehouse—I locked up the premises on the evening of the 11th of this month, about a quarter-past 7—I left them safe at that time—there were six desks in the office altogether; four in one, and two in another—they were all apparently secure—as the clerks leave they lock their own desks—in one of the desks there was a bowl with some postage stamps—I did not see it that evening—it is generally kept there—I did not notice the area railings that night the policeman, who was watching, outside went with me into the premises the following morning—I came there the next morning about half-past 7—when I found the place had been broken into, I sent for further assistance to the station—I found that the desks had all been entered and the contents strewed about—I noticed four coats lying on the floor in one of the counting-houses—they were in the same room that they had been the evening before—I know the prisoner—he had no business on the premises

—I saw him discovered up Stairs on the first-floor, secreted in a rack on some papers—I saw a piece of granite on the basement; it was not there the day before.

Prisoner. Q. Did you not state at the Mansion-house, that a week previous to the robbery there were three bars broken away? A. Yes; in the adjoining area; and there was a bar put up to secure it—I generally go round the place of a night—I only examine those parts which need to be secured—I mostly look to see if the bars are broken away when I get outside.

COURT. Q. Where was this granite? A. In the cellar, below the grating.

JOHN ALFRED FROST (City-policeman, 417): About 10 o'clock on Wednesday night, 11th September, I was on duty near the prosecutor's premises, and about a quarter before I on Thursday morning I noticed that three spikes had been broken away from the grating, and a granite stone lying in the basement—when I first came on duty that evening the spikes were not broken or the granite there—I noticed that—I reported this at the station—I did not watch the premises myself after that, some one else was put on the watch.

JOSEPH MARSHALL (City-policeman, 64). In consequence of information I received at the station-house, I proceeded to the prosecutor's premises on the morning of 12th September, about 8 o'clock—on entering the warehouse we found that four desks were broken open, on the ground floor—upon searching the warehouse, in a back room on the first-floor, I found the prisoner concealed under some paper—I found nothing on him but some lucifers matches—an entrance had been effected by three bars being broken away from the area—I noticed several coats lying on the floor.

Prisoner. Q. How many lucifers were there found on me? A. Three or four—they were all tipped, parts of the ends were broken off, but they would answer the purpose.

SAMUEL BULL . I am assistant to Messrs. Barry and Co.—I bad a coat which I left on their premises on the evening of 11th September, hanging up in my office—I found the coat, 'the next morning, in another office on the floor with several others, with the pockets rifled—all the contents were left in my own office—the prisoner was not employed by Messrs. Barry, and had no business upon the premises.

Prisoner. Q. Do you always hang your coat in the same place? A. Always.

Prisoner's Defence. Thomas Harwood states that the bars were broken a week before; it is at the top of a place where a lot of lads play about, and there is a heap of stones just opposite; they might easily have been broken by any one throwing stones there. I don't think it is fair I should be indicted for breaking, when it might have been done by anybody else; of course I can't say anything as to being found in the warehouse.

GUILTY of entering with intent to steal. *†— Confined Twelve Months.

OLD COURT.—Tuesday, September 24th, 1861.


Before Mr. Recorder.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-737
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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737. CHARLES CULLUM (19), Was indicted for embezzling the sums of 3l. 11s. 3d., and 15s. property of Isaac Moses, his master; to which he

PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Two Months.

The prosecutor stated that he received an Eight Years' Character with the prisoner.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-738
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceNo Punishment > sentence respited

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738. GEORGE BROWN(26) , Stealing 12 oxen, value 180l. the property of George Bullas, to which he


The prisoner received a good character; Mr. Bartlett, a builder at Shadwell, the prisoner's employer, deposed to recent acts of strangeness and eccentricity on his part. Judgment Respited.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-739
VerdictsGuilty > pleaded guilty

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739. JOSEPH MOORE (19) , Feloniously forging and uttering an altered acquittance and receipt for 1l. 15s. with intent to defraud; also forging and uttering another receipt for 1l. 16s. 7d.; to both of which he

PLEADED GUILTY.—Recommended to mercy. — Confined Twelve Months.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-740
VerdictNot Guilty > no evidence

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740. JAMES ABERDEEN(38) , Stealing 10 shawls, the property of Henry Knox, his master.

MR. COOPER for the Prosecution offered no evidence.


23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-741
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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741. JAMES ABERDEEN(38), Was again indicted for unlawfully obtaining 12 shawls, and 12 skirts of Henry Knox by false pretences; to which he

PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Nine Months.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-742
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty; Guilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment; Imprisonment

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742. HENRY STRONG(48), and SAMUEL BRADLEY (55) , Stealing 3 books, 4s. 6d., of George Routledge and others. Second Count, Receiving the same; to which


He received a good character.— Confined Twelve Months.

MESSRS. ORRIDGE and CLERK conducted the Prosecution.

NATHAN FOX . I live at 10, London-house yard—on Tuesday, 27th August, about 3 o'clock, I was in the parlour adjoining my shop—I saw the two prisoners in the street near my shop—their manner attracted my attention—I watched them, and saw Strong give Bradley something out of his side pocket—Strong had his back towards me—I could not say exactly what it was—Bradley put them into a bag which he carried—Strong took something out of his pocket two or three times, and each time Bradley put what he gave him into the bag—Bradley then left Strong, and went towards St. Paul's Churchyard—Strong had a small hand truck with him—it was a few yards from him—it contained two large paper parcels—he followed with it in the same direction as Strong had gone—I went through a court by London-house-yard, thinking I should meet Bradley in Paternoster-row—he did not come quite up to me, but turned into a passage leading into Newgate-market, called, I think, Paved-alley—I followed after him, and when I got to the top of the alley, I tapped him on the shoulder, and said "Bradley, I wish to speak to you"—he said, "Very well, Mr. Fox"—I said, "Come along with me"—I took him to my house, and when in the parlour I said, "What was it you received of the man with the truck?"—he said, "Some books"—I said, "Where are they?"—he said, "In my bag"—I said, "Give me them out"—he then gave me three books, saying, "Mr. Fox, these are my books; I ordered them of the man with the truck"—I then asked him who the man was that gave him the books, and where he worked; and after some hesitation he said, "Messrs. Routledge, of Farringdon-street"—I said that if that was the case, I daresay it would be right, I would go with him down to Farringdon-street; but when I got him to my street door he wanted to get away by

some excuse, and I was compelled to call a policeman to assist me, and I gave him in custody—I went to Farringdon-street, but not with the prisoner—these (produced) are the three books.

Cross-examined by Mr. Best. Q. Did this transaction take place in the open street? A. Yes; it is a yard—there is a thoroughfare for people, but not for carts.

EDMUND ROUTLEDGE . I am the son of Mr. Routledge, the publisher, in Farringdon-street—I remember the prisoners being taken in custody on the 27th—we had received these three books into stock that morning—they were not published then—we had not issued them in any way—Strong was in our employment as a porter—these books were taken from the binder's board in the country department—he had access to that place—I went to Bradley's house, and there saw 142 volumes all published by us, and all new, at least they looked so—Bradley had no account with our firm—I have oarer seen him before, and he is not known there.

Cross-examined. Q. What were the names of the 142 volumes? A. I cannot recollect all—there were fifty or sixty of our cheap novels, the dearest of them would be about half-a-crown—a great many of those are sold—we supply many of them in hundreds of thousands—Strong has been in our employ I believe about nine years.

JOHN CHAPMAN (City-policeman, 319). On 27th August I took Bradley into custody—Mr. Fox had these books—at the station, Bradley said they were his property—I went to his lodgings with Mr. Routledge, and saw 142 volumes there which Mr. Routledge spoke to—they are here—they were all loose—some are cut open.

JOHN HINDE JOHNSON (City Police-sergeant). About 8 o'clock in the evening, on coming to the station, I went to the cell where Bradley was, accompanied by a constable—I asked him if he had any of Messrs. Routledge's books at his lodgings, and he said, No, he had not—I said, "Are you quite sure?"—he said, "Yes" I said, "Why you have got stock, have you not?"—he said, "Yes; but it is only old books' and pamphlets"—I said, "Now, be careful; are you sure that you have not any of Messrs. Routledge's publications at your house?" and he then repeated that he had not—I then said, "What will you say if I show you 142 which have been found at your lodgings?"—he made no reply to that—I said, "Come with me"—I took him to the office where the books were all placed, and he then said, "These are mine"—pointing to this packet of eleven books—" I bought them of Mr. Lowe"—I said, "But these are published by Routledge, you said you had none of Routledge's publications"—he made no reply to that, and he then went into the cell—when Bradley was first brought in, I questioned him as to what account he could give respecting these three books, and to the best of my remembrance he said that he he got them of a porter of Messrs. Routledge, and I think he said that he had ordered them—when Strong was brought in, which was perhaps twenty minutes or half-an-hour after, I said to Bradley, "Is that the porter you got these books from?" and he said, "No; that is not the man"—that was in the presence of Strong and of Mr. Routledge, and two or three other persons.

Cross-examined. Q. How long have you been in the police force? A. Fifteen years—I did not attempt to cross-examine the prisoner—I questioned him simply in order to know whether I had any right to detain the books—I had no other reason—I was not there when the books were brought in.

JONATHAN EATON . I am in Mr. Routledge's house—I saw Strong go

through the shop with a truck load of goods about twenty minutes past I in the afternoon—he said he was going to Great St. Helen's.

EMMA LOWE . I kept the Rose and Crown public-house, in London-house-yard at the time in question—I know the two prisoners—I had seen them at ray house for some time—Bradley had been in the habit of coming for some time—I sold Bradley these twelve books.

Cross-examined. Q. I believe he is a sort of itinerant bookseller, is he not? A. Yes; he goes about hawking books.

MR. CLERK. Q. Have you seen them together at the house? A. They may have been in the vaults together—I have not noticed them in company together.

(Bradley's statement before the Magistrate toot here read as follows:—"I admit having the unlawful possession of the three books; but the bulk of the books are all my own, bought at different times, and at different places).

BRADLEY— GUILTY on Second Count .— Confined Eighteen Month.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-743
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceNo Punishment > sentence respited

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743. ANN CALLAGHAN (17) , Stealing 15s. of Michael Morris, her master; to which she

PLEADED GUILTY.— Judgment respited.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-744
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty; Guilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment; Imprisonment

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744. WALTER MEAD (18), and ROBERT BROWN (19) , Stealing 3 coats, the property of Robert Parnall and others. Second Count—Receiving the same, to which

BROWN— PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months.

MR. COOPER conducted the Prosecution.

THOMAS SMART . I am one of the City detectives—I went, on 12th September, with Robert Tilley, another officer, at about 1 o'clock, the dinner hour, and watched Mr. Parnall's warehouse, in Bishopsgate-street without—after I had stood there about ten minutes I saw Brown leave the warehoues and walk towards Bishopsgate-church—when about twenty yards from the warehouse he met Mead—they walked together to the White Hart public-house in Bishopsgate-street, and had something to drink together—then they left there, and walked arm-in-arm to Wormwood-street, turned into Union-court, and went into No. 11—I stood at the end of Union-court watching the door of the house in company with Tilley—we remained there about ten minutes—Mead then came out with a parcel wrapped up in brown paper—at the time they went in neither of them had a parcel that we could see—Mead was turning towards us in Worm wood-street—he saw us standing looking up the court, and immediately turned round and went the other way through another outlet into Broad-street—Tilley went round to meet him coming out at the other end—I went to No. 11, the back part of the house, and found Brown in the closet—Tilley then brought back Mead with a coat wrapped up in a parcel—we then told the two that we were officers, and should take Brown into custody for having robbed his employed, and that we should charge Mead with receiving the coat—we then conveyed them to the station—I searched Brown, and in his possession I found six pawnbroker's tickets—one is for a coat pledged on 12th August, at Mr. Fryett's, 16, Whitechapel-road, in the name of John Mead; the other is for a coat pawned on 16th August, at Mr. Cotton's, in Hackney-road, for 1l. in the name of James Layard—we opened the parcel at the station—it was partly open.

Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. Did you know Mead before? A. No—I saw him meet Brown about twenty yards from the door of the prosecutor's, and about the same distance from the public-house—Mead had not anything when he came out of the public-house that we could see; Brown appeared bulky—neither of them had a parcel at that time.

GEORGE TILLEY . I am one of the City detectives—I was with Smart on 12th September, watching the prosecutor's premises—I saw brown leave the premises—I afterwards followed them into a public-house, then out into Union-court, Old Broad-street—Mead came out first from Union-court with this parcel (produced) under his arm—it contains a coat—I went into Broad-street and met him—I asked him what he had under his arm—he said, a parcel that a young man had given to him to mind for him—I told him I was an officer, and he must go back with me—I took him to the station-house, opened the parcel, and found that it contained this coat.

Cross-examined. Q. I believe you heard him make the same statement at the police-court, that Brown had asked him to do something for him? A. Yes, he did.

WILLIAM MCLACHLAN . I am assistant to Mr. Fryett, of 16, Whitechapel-road, pawnbroker—I produce a coat, pledged at our shop on 12th August, for 1l. by the prisoner Mead—I have seen the duplicate produced by the officer—it corresponds with the one I have.

Cross-examined. Q. He appears to have pawned it in his own name? A. Yes—he did not say that he was pawning it for another person—I had seen him before—he gave me the same address that he had given me once before, No. 2, Raven Row, Mile-end—I believe that is his proper address.

BENJAMIN PARNHAM . I am foreman to Robert and Henry Parnall, of 18, Bishopsgate-street, clothiers—Brown was employed on our premises as a cutter—I have seen the coat produced—it is one belonging to our firm—it is the one that was taken from Mead by Smart—I had seen it safe at 10 o'clock that same morning—I may say it was safe at half-past 12 o'clock—my attention was first called to it at 10 o'clock—there are three coats here; I have previously identified the other two.

Mead's statement before the Magistrate was here read as follows:—"Yesterday, when Brown gave me the coat, I was not aware it was stolen. He asked me to take it for him to my place, and I was to meet him in the evening and give it to him. As to the pledge ticket, Brown asked me to buy the ticket, as he said he thought the coat would fit me. I gave him half-a-crown for the ticket, and took it out and tried it on; it was rather too large; I was not aware it was stolen, and pledged it in Whitechapel for the same money; and Brown gave me the half-crown back again, and I gave him the ticket; I pledged it in my own name."

THOMAS SMART (re-examined). The place in Union-court is let out in offices—Brown was formerly employed there as an errand-boy, and knew the arrangement of the premises very well—neither of the prisoners lived there.

MEAD— GUILTY on Second Count — Confined Nine Months.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-745
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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745. THOMAS JOHNSON (18) , Stealing 1 watch, value 3l. 10s., the property of Carl Bergenstrom, from his person; to which he

PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Nine Months.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-746
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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746. WILLIAM BROOKS (17) , Stealing 11 1/2 lbs. of lead, the property of Abercrombie Gordon; to which he

PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Nine Months.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-747
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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747. JAMES BALLARD (26) , Unlawfully obtaining, by false pretences, the sum of 18s. 8d. the monies of Benjamin Smith; to which he

PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-748
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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748. CHIP LYE (21) , Burglariously breaking and entering the dwelling-house of John Freeman, and stealing therein 1 box and 32l. 5s. 3d. the property of Robert Marsh Hughes and others.

The prisoner, being a Chinese, had the evidence explained by an interpreter.

MR. THOMPSON conducted the Prosecution.

JOHN FREEMAN . I am superintendent of the Strangers' Home in the West India-road—Robert Marsh Hughes and others are the managers of the institution—Mr. Hughes is the honorary secretary, and a member of the board—he is the representative of the institution, and in his absence I am his substitute, as the superintendent—the monies which were stolen were the monies of inmates in the Strangers' Home that had been deposited, and money given to pay for their board, which I held in charge until it was time to pay it in to Colonel Hughes, the honorary secretary—there are other persons associated with him—when there is a considerable sum, it is paid into the bank—it is very seldom that we have so much on hand—it is paid into the bank in the name of Colonel Marsh Hughes, on behalf of the committee or board of directors—he is a member of the committee, which consists of a considerable number of persons beside himself—I am a servant of the committee, and receive the deposits and monies for board, which I pay in periodically to Colonel Hughes—I receive it on account of the committee—it is all done on account of the committee, or board of directors—on Thursday night, 22d July, I went round and saw the premises safe—I was in the office after 10 o'clock; all was safe then, and all the doors were locked—the Home is not closed till about 11, and I went round the last thing and all was safe then—the windows have no shutters—I entered the office-door at 7 o'clock the next morning, where the box and money were kept—my attention was called first of all by seeing papers strewed about the floor—I then looked round and saw that the large wooden box, in which the cash-box and papers were placed, was gone—the wooden box was used for keeping the men's clothes in—it was possibly three-quarters of a yard in length, and the same in depth, square; it was such a size as a man might carry away—the money was in a tin cash-box, which was kept in the wooden box—the wooden box was locked the night before, and the tin cash-box also—it contained 32l. 5s. 3d., two 10l. notes, and the rest in gold and silver—I cannot state exactly the proportion of gold and silver—there was not a pound's worth of silver, I think, the rest was in gold—I made a search to see bow anybody could have entered—the box was standing under the window—the ventilator, which was closed on the overnight, was partly opened—it is a square of glass which turns on a pivot in the middle; the top cord pulls it open, and the bottom cord will pall it to again—it was not as it had been left on the overnight—it was not open sufficient to admit the person of anybody—when it is fully opened a person could get in—our men have occasionally crept through a similar ventilator in the dormitories—there is a verandah near the window, which leads out into the back-yard—I saw some finger marks at the top and also at the bottom of the ventilator, and on the iron frame round—I could see it had been taken hold of—on the sill of the window there was a mark as though a man had put his knee or foot on it—it had been whitened with hearth-stone—I did not see a stick found, I saw it in the back yard near the wall—I know the prisoner—I knew him above two years ago, when he was an Inmate of the Home—he left on 9th April, 1859, with the crew, and returned with the crew on 10th June last—he had been an inmate before the robbery as late as 26th July, when he was sent to the Dreadnought Hospital-ship, sick—he afterwards returned but he never slept in the Home—he used to climb over the wall

and come in at unseasonable hours, and go out when he pleased—in consequence of that he was refused admission—I have a book here in which I entered the numbers of the two 10l. notes (produced); one was 19,027, and the other 01,030—the prisoner knows English very well.

Prisoner (through the interpreter). I did not steal the money; I had nothing to do with it.

FRANCIS LEDIE . I am fireman at the Stranger's-home—on Friday morning, 23d August, I found this stick (produced) in the garden up against the wall; it had been left the previous night in the coal-cellar—I also found the latch of the coa-cellar door, and the wooden box in which the cash-box was kept, in the coal-cellar—the box had been cut, but being thick, the corner had been cut off—I expect the stick was used as a lever to force it open—it is pared off so as to enable it to go into the hole—I did not compare it with the marks on the box.

CATHERINE GREGORY . I am an unfortunate girl, and live at 20, St. Ann's-road, Limehouse—on Friday morning, 23d August, about 2 o'clock, I saw the prisoner at the top of York-road, Commercial-road—he asked me if I would sleep with him—I said I did not mind—he said he had two sovereigns in a box, and he had lost the key—we went to Mrs. Gray's, and he asked her to lend him some keys—she did so, bat they would not fit the box—he went out-of-doors and returned is about ten minutes, and asked if I would go with him to get change for a sovereign—I said yes—we went up the Commercial-road as far as the Regent's-canal—he stopped there, and I went on, and before I got to the end of the bridge I heard something go over, and it sounded like a tin box, and when he came up to me he had nothing under his coat—before that he had been carrying a tin box under his coat—we went on as far as the back of the Stranger's-home, and there he stopped behind again—I saw some papers in his hand, doubled up, and he chucked them over the back of the Stranger's-home—I then went with him to Randall's coffee-shop—he asked the gentleman there if he had change for a sovereign, and he sent for a shilling's-worth of wine, and gave me 3s. 6d.—he said if I told any one I had been with him he would do something to me.

Prisoner. I never saw this girl at all.

THOMAS RANDALL . I keep a coffee-shop in White Horse-street, Ratoliff—on Friday morning, 23d August, the prisoner came there with the last witness, somewhere about 2 o'clock—he asked for change for a sovereign—he said he had engaged a bed in the York-road, of a Mrs. Gray; that she could not give him change, and would I do so—he said, "Go fetch a shilling's worth of wine"—he drank it and I saw no more of him till between 7 and 8 in the morning, when he came to me again, and said, "You were very kind last night to give me change, will you have a glass of wine with me now?"—I said I had no objection—when I brought it, he pulled out two notes and said, "What are these?"—I was inclined to keep them, but he said, "I was second steward of a ship and have been paid off with 30l.—I have been with a girl I don't like, what are these?"—I said, "Two 10l. notes"—he said, "That is right, 20l."—he then pulled nine sovereigns out of his handkerchief, and then left me—he spoke English almost as well as I can.

JOHN BROADHEAD . I keep the Black-bull public-house, Dunning's-alley, Bishopsgate-street—my wife, Sophia Emily Broadhead, was a witness in this case before the Magistrate—she was here yesterday, but is unable to travel to-day, she is near her confinement—this is her signature to this deposition.

GEORGE CHADWICK . (Policeman, K 350). I was present at the inquiry

before the Magistrate—Sophia Emily Broadhead was examined there as a witness—the prisoner was also present, and was asked if he wished to put any questions to her—I saw her sign her deposition.

The deposition of Sophia Emily Broadhead was read as follows: "I am the wife of John Broadhead of the Black-bull public-house, Dunning's-alley, Bishopsgate-street—on Friday morning the prisoner came to our house and had some sherry and beer, and asked to have lodgings—I did not like his appearance, so I asked him a guinea a-week for his board—he said it was too much; and I said I would charge him for what he had, and he gave me the two 10l. notes, produced by the constable, to take care of for him—I had not known him before—the officer came and locked him up, and I gave the notes to the officer—the prisoner had money besides, and various articles of wearing apparel—he bought a suit of clothes, two shirts, and several other articles after he came to our house—he did not pay for his meals—I have not been paid anything."

GEORGE CHADWICK (re-examined), I took the prisoner into custody on 24th August, at the Black-bull—I said, "I want you on suspicion of committing a burglary in the West India-road, at the Stranger's-home," and I took him by the collar—he said, "No, me no b----thief," and raised his hand to strike me, and said, "Let me go you b—b—, I know you when I come out"—I took him to the station—I asked where he got the new clothes he had on—he said he had bought them at Liverpool—I returned to the Black-bull and got these two 10l. notes from Mrs. Broadhead, they are numbers 01,030 and 19,027.

Prisoner's Defence. I never stole it; I am too big a man to go through that window.

GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-749
VerdictGuilty > unknown

Related Material

749. GEORGE SMITH (20) , Stealing 1 mare, the property of Joseph Harrington.

MR. RIBTON conducted the Prosecution.

JAMES HARRINGTON . On 6th September, I took six horses to Mr. Ramsay's field, on the Great Northern-road; amongst them was a bay mare—I lost that mare on the Friday following, the 13th—it was shown to me that same day by Mr. Ramsay and sergeant Sawyer, and I identified her as mine—she bad two or three white marks and a tuft of hair on the throat—she had had some shoes put on at Mr. Jackson's, at Finchley, and I examined her and found she had on the same shoes—I can swear it was my mare—I valued her at 7l., but she is worth more.

JOHN RAMSAY . I occupy a farm at Whetstone—on 6th September, Mr. Harrington left five horses and a mare in my field—I saw the mare that was afterwards found by the constable, and saw Mr. Harrington identify it—I had seen that mare in the field on Wednesday, 11th September, in the evening part—I should say about 6 o'clock—I was called up by the policeman between 12 and 1 that night, and went to the field—I found that the gates had been unhinged—I could not count the horses at that time, for the fog came on so thick I could not see—next morning I found that two horses were gone, and one in the field had a halter on—the mare was gone—on the Friday, I was with Sawyer, and saw the prisoner riding the mare neat the cattle-market at Islington.

STEPHEN CROUCH . (Policeman, S 159). On the Wednesday night, about ten minutes past 11, I was near the toll-gate at Whetstone, and saw the prisoner come to the gate with two horses; he was riding one and leading the other—I was there about two minutes looking at him before the tollman came out, he then paid the toll and went through—there was a gas

lamp there, I saw him distinctly—I stood and looked at him—I am perfectly sure he is the man—I saw him afterwards in the cell at Whetstone police-station, and identified him—when I saw him with the horses he had on a blue pilot jacket buttoned with one button—when I saw him in the cell he was dressed in the same way, except that he had a hat on instead of a cap—I heard of the horse being lost the next day from sergeant Sawyer, and I gave a description of the person I had seen.

Cross-examined by MR. F. H. LEWIS. Q. Was the prisoner alone when you saw him in the cell? A. Yes—the inspector told me he had got a man—he did not say it was the man; directly I saw him I said he was the man—he was lying down; he had his hat with him, but it was not on his head—the gas lamp at the toll-gate stands just over the gate, about a yard and a half from where the gate opens, so that I distinctly saw him—I am not mistaken—I did not take particular notice of the horse he was riding, I was looking at the man most—I looked at his face and at his dress—I was looking for the purpose of identifying him afterwards, in case of anything wrong—I saw that he had two horses, but I did not take particular notice of them—I could not identify them—the horse that he was leading was on his off-side, he was on the near horse—I noticed that after he had got through the gate and gone towards London—I had never seen him before—I did not suspect anything wrong then, because there are so many horses about at Barnet fair-time—I always do look at people on our road, if I can get a look at them.

MR. RIBTON. Q. From what you saw, are you quite sure the prisoner is the man? A. Yes—I am perfectly aware of it.

WILLIAM SAWYER . (Police-sergeant, S 24). On Thursday morning I heard of the loss of the horses from the field—I went to the toll-gate and made inquiries—I afterwards saw Crouch—he made a communication to me, and gave me a description of a person—I then went with Mr. Ramsay to all the other toll-gates from Whetstone to Holloway, and traced up to London—we got to Islington about 3 o'clock in the afternoon, but the toll collector, who had been on duty the night before, was not there then, and I had to stop till 8 o'clock in the evening to see him—next day I was with Mr. Ramsay in the Caledonian-road, and saw the prisoner riding a bay mare—it was the one that was afterwards identified by Mr. Harrington—I followed him to a public-house opposite Caledonian School—he got off there—a man spoke to him—he gave the mare up to a boy outside, and went into the house to get something to drink—I went and looked at the mare, and saw she corresponded with the description that was given—Mr. Ramsay went to find the prosecutor, and when the prisoner came out I asked him if the horse was his—he said it was—I asked where he bought it—he said he bought it the morning previous at Harlow-bush Fair—I asked him at what time—he told me about 9 o'clock in the morning—I asked which way he went to Harlow-bush—he said from King's-cross station to Barnet by the half-past 6 morning train, and that he arrived at Barnet by 7; that he then went to Barnet fair-fields, as he thought the fair was not over, to purchase a horse; and, the fair being over, he saw two gipsies in the fields where the fair was held, and he asked them if. they could sell him a horse; that they told him they had not one there to suit him, but they could take him to a place where they could get him a useful mare—he said he then went with them to Harlow-bush—I asked him which way he went—he said he walked up the hill through Barnet—I asked him which way ho turned when he got to Barnet—he said, "To the left"—I said, "You say you walked there, how

far should you think it is?"—he said, "Seven or eight miles"—I then told him I believed that was the mare that was stolen from Mr. Ramsay's field, in Whetstone, about 11 o'clock on Wednesday night, and that his answers did not satisfy me; that I knew Harlow-bush to be twenty miles on the right of Barnet, and it was impossible for him to get there in the time, and he must accompany me to the station as the owner was sent for—I took him to the station in the Caledonian-road, and the prosecutor came and identified the mare—I then conveyed the prisoner to Whetstone and charged him—he repeated the same story there as before—on searching him, I found this toll ticket, issued at Holloway gate—it contains the figures 12, 9, which, I believe, means the 12th day of the 9th month—Thursday was the 12th—a person passing through that gate after 12 o'clock on Wednesday night would receive such a ticket—Harlow-bush is twenty miles on the right of Barnet—if he had got to Barnet by 7 o'clock, he could not have to Harlot bush by 9.

Cross-examined. Q. I suppose any person passing through the gate up to 12 o'clock on the Thursday night would get such a ticket as that? A. Certainly.

(The prisoner's statement before the Magistrate was here read as follow: "On Thursday morning I made my way to King's-cross station and took a ticket for Barnet; as I got down into the fair-field, I asked a couple of gipsies if they knew of a good horse for sale; they said they had not one, but could take me where I could have my choice; I agreed to go with them; we went over to Harlow-bush in a light cart, and I arrived there about twenty minutes past 9. After we got there I saw two black horses and two bay ones; I looked at them, and picked this bay mare, the one now in the street; I asked the price; they asked six guineas; I said I would not give it, I would give five; they would not take less than 5l. 15s.; I said I would split the difference and give 5l. 10s.; they said they would take it; that was all I agreed to pay, and did pay. They took the horses up to London; one of them rode the black horse and led the other; I rode up to Islington gate in the same cart I rode from Barnet, I and the other gipsy, and the cart passed them on the road; one said we would meet them through Islington gate; we stopped at a public-house, through the gate, till they came; the gipsy that brought the horses through the gate had a hand kerchief and a ticket; they left me the ticket and handkerchief, by dropping it; they said I could have it, so I picked up the ticket and handkerchief and put them into my pocket; they tied the two black horses and the hay behind the cart and left me with this mare, and said, 'Good afternoon, I wish you good luck with the mare, I hope she will do you service; that was a 11; I made my way home'")

STEPHEN CROUCH (re-examined). The gate at which I saw the prisoner with the two horses is not on the way to Harlow-bush; it is altogether a different road—it is on the main high-road to London.

GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-750
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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750. ALFRED MORRIS (25) , Embezzling the sums of 2l. 10s., 21l. 0s. 6d., and 17l. 3s. 3d. of Charles Morris and others, his masters.

METCALFE conducted the Prosecution.

GEORGE MOORE . I am a tobacconist, and live at 23, Sloane-square, Chelsea—I gave the prisoner an order for goods for Messrs. Barnard Morris and Sons—I cannot state positively in what month it was—I received the goods, and paid the prisoner 17l. 3s. 3d.—I have the receipt

here—I had dealt with Morris and Co. for two years—I paid the prisoner the money on their account.

Cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH. Q. I believe you have known the defendant for many years, and know that he always bore the character of a highly honourable young man? A. I have known him about town for some years as a business man—I always understood he bore a good character.

MR. METCALFE. Q. On what day was it that you paid the prisoner the money? A. I cannot say—I think it was something like four months after the delivery of the goods—it was last year, or the beginning of this. I will not be positive which.

CHARLES HENRY BURGESS . I assist my father, a wine and spirit merchant, 75, Sloane-street, Chelsea—I paid the prisoner 2l. 10s., on 26th February, on account of Barnard Morris and Sons—I had a receipt for it.

Cross-examined. Q. Did you know the prisoner before you bought any goods of this firm? A. No; I simply knew him as representing the firm.

CHARLES MORRIS . I am one of the firm of Barnard Morris and Sons, Cigar manufacturers, Whitechapel—the prisoner has been employed by us for some years—in 1859, there was a difference made in the arrangement between us—we arranged to settle with him on each transaction as it arose—he was to take orders, and on collecting the money for those orders he was to be paid his commission upon them—he was to account to us immediately upon the receipt of the money for the whole of it, and then he received his commission from us on each transaction—he has not accounted to me for 17l. 3s. 3d. received from Mr. Moore; or for 2l. 10s. received from Mr. Burgess—he should account to me, or any member of the firm—that is my father, Mr. Barnard Morris, and my brother, William Morris, and myself.

Cross-examined. Q. The defendant is related to you, I believe? A. He is a first cousin—there was no special arrangement between us previous to 1859, except that was advanced him money upon the score of other business that he had done for us—he was in the habit of selling goods for us—we did not divide the profits, we paid him a commission, but with a view to a settlement at the end of the year—we paid him in advance before he collected the moneys, in anticipation of his doing so; and then, as the commission accrued, there was a debit and credit account—he did not live in the house—we called him a commission traveller—his duty was to go and collect orders of any one that he thought trustworthy; if he did not do so, the only result would he that he would have no commission—I do not know that since 1859 he was employed as a clerk to Godson and Ford, of Govent-garden—I never heard it before to-day—it may be so—I have since heard, that at the time he was taken into custody, he was carrying on business on his own account, but I did not know it at the time—it is impossible to tell without reference to the books the amount of the prisoner's transactions for us since 1859—the books are here—it would take a long time to go through them to ascertain that—we have not a separate account in the books as to his orders—we have a separate ledger—we have not any account in the ledger of the commission paid to him, because he was paid it on each transaction since 1859; and there has been nothing of the kind, because we wanted to simplify it, so that there should be no complexity about it—we have no entry since 1859, showing the amount of commission received by him—I cannot undertake to say that goods to the amount of 2,000l. have not been sold by him—I really have not the remotest idea whether it is 1,000l.,

2,000l., or 500l.—I will not swear it was 5 not 2,000l., his commission was 5 per cent—we have no book which would show the amount of money paid to him since January, 1859—there is a petty cash-book in which his commission was put down as it was paid, that would show the amount—that book has been destroyed—all those books are destroyed, they being of no importance in our business—the petty cash-book of 1859 was destroyed long ago, and the one for 1860 also—they are of no earthly use to us—we sometimes keep our petty cash on a little piece of waste paper—I have no book here in which the prisoner's commission, with regard to these particular amounts, is entered—the ledger does not contain any account between ourselves and the prisoner after 1859—there is no book that contains any such account since 1859.

MR. METCALFE. Q. Did the petty cash-book contain merely entries of petty cash? A. Yes; such entries as ink and postage stamps, and things of that sort; it was in that book we entered small transactions with the prisoner—of course we had no notion of anything of this sort, therefore we did not keep them—we do not destroy other books—one of our reasons for making the alteration after 1859 was, that there should be no account between us; but that the commission should be handed over at once—the ledger contains entries of the goods sent out to Mr. Moore and Mr. Burgess—we gave the bill to the prisoner to give to Mr. Moore—I cannot say whether I gave it him myself, but we always give the bill three months after the goods have been delivered—that account would have been given to him in February—there is no pretence for saying that we divided profits with the prisoner prior to 1859—we advanced him money in consequence of his necessities.

COURT. Q. You say it was his duty to receive money? A. Yes; it was in the course of his employment to have bills placed in his hands to collect—it was his duty to deliver the bills and receive the money.

WILLIAM MORRIS . I am one of the firm of Barnard Morris and Sons—the prisoner has not accounted to me for 2l. 10s. received from Mr. Burgess in January, or for 17l. 3s. 3d. received from Mr. Moore.

Cross-examined. Q. Have you much to do with the business? A. Yes; I know of no case of the prisoner's being allowed to charge 24s. or 25s. a pound, and our charging him 20s., and his putting the difference in his pocket, or any excess—I never heard of it—I mean to say we have not does so in any instance—I believe there were one or two instances where he was permitted to charge a shilling or two more, which he was allowed to put in his pocket.

MR. METCALFE. Q. Under what circumstances was that? A. I believe it was to a small customer, a friend of his; that was at his own request—he charged a shilling extra per pound on the invoice price—he has been with us three or four years—I think it was prior to 59 that he was allowed to do that—I do not know of any instance of it since 1859—I never gave him permission in any case.

BARNARD MORRIS . I am one of the firm of Barnard Morris & Sons—I take scarcely any part in the business—I have not received 2l. 10s. paid by Mr. Burgess to the prisoner, or 17l. 3s. 3d. received from Mr. Moore—the prisoner has never accounted to me for either of those sums.

Cross-examined. Q. I believe you are the prisoner's uncle? A. Yes.

MR. METCALFE. Q. Are you allowing his father an annuity? A. Yes; merely as a poor relation.

PORTER WILLIAM DUNNAWAY (Policeman, H 129). On 1st July I took

the prisoner into custody at 248, High-street, Wapping—I told him he was charged with embezzling various sums of money from his employers; one was from Mr. Moore, in Sloane-square, and one from Mr. Burgees, and there were others—he said, "Yes, it is quite right; I had the money"—he then said, "I shan't say anything more about it till I have seen my solicitor; I shall let the case go for trial"—I had previously told him who and what I was.

MR. SLEIGH submitted that this case did not come within the statute, that the primer was a mere commission agent, and not a clerk or servant, and according to recent cases (Reg. v. Map and Reg. v. Carr) there must be a power of control by the matter, which clearly did not exist in the present case. The RECORDER was of opinion that there was abundant evidence to satisfy the requirements of the statute; it being part of the prisoner's duty to deliver bills and collect money.

The prisoner received a good character. NOT GUILTY .

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-751
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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751. JOHN SAMUEL MATTHIAS (21) , Feloniously forging and uttering 3 requests for the delivery of goods, with intent to defraud; to all of which he

PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Eighteen Months.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-752
VerdictGuilty > with recommendation
SentenceImprisonment > other institution

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752. BENJAMIN MITCHELL (14) , Burglary in the dwelling-house of Henry Roberts, with intent to steal.

MR. PALMER conducted the Prosecution.

WILLIAM ARBER (Policeman, F 155). On 27th August, I was on duty in Russell-court, Drury-lane, a few minutes before 2 o'clock, and saw three persons pass me; I could not say whether the prisoner was one of them—a few minutes after they had passed me I followed them up and saw one of them, a little taller than the prisoner, stop behind; the other two walked straight on up Russell-court—I came back again and got into a doorway; presently the three came back; I then saw that the prisoner was one of them—a few minutes afterwards I heard a rush and crowding noise as if some body was either shutting or opening a door; I went up to the corner and saw the prisoner half in at the fan-light of the Royal Standard public-house, 57, Drury-lane—the fan-light is over the door, and he was half in and half out of it; he was lifted up by the other two—I rushed up and attempted to collar one of them, but he stooped down and got away from me, and I secured the prisoner—I asked what he was going to do there—he said he was going to do nothing; he was merely putting in another boy—I tried the fan-light and found it was open—I left the house in charge of a person while I took the prisoner to the station, and when I came back I called the barman up—I had tried that fen-light with my staff about ten minutes before this occurred, and it was then quite safe; it felt very light, bat there was no fastening to it—I could not shove it open with my staff, it is suspended by a central swivel—it would require force to open it.

Cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH. Q. Were the other two taller than the prisoner? A. A little; they were lifting him up—I did not hear him call out police; if he had done so I must have heard him.

JAMES PETCH . I am barman at the Royal Standard public-house, Drury-Lane, kept by Henry Roberts—on the morning of 27th August, between 2 and 3 o'clock, I heard the bell ring very violently—I got up, came down, and found the policeman at the door—I found the fan-light open; it must have been pushed open from the outside—I had seen it secured at half-past 12 that night.

The prisoner's statement before the Magistrate was read as follows: "I do not know the men; I was going after work and met these men, and they stopped and shoved me up; I did not want to do it; they said they would give me 3l. to do it.

GUILTY.—Recommended to mercy by the Jury. — Three Years in Feltham Reformatory.

NEW COURT.—Tuesday, September 24th, 1861.


Before Robert Malcolm Kerr, Esq.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-753
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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753. ELLEN WEST (34) , Feloniously uttering counterfeit coin; to which she

PLEADED GUILTY .— Four Years' Penal Servitude.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-754
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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754. THOMAS TAYLOR (45), was indicted for a like offence; to which he

PLEADED GUILTY .— Four Years' Penal Servitude.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-755
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty; Not Guilty > no evidence
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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755. JOHN CAREY (37), and LOUISA CAREY (38) , Feloniously having counterfeit coin in their possession, with intent to utter it; to which


It was stated by the police that he had been living by counterfeit coin for twelve years, and had enlisted hundreds of other persons in the same business,— Ten Years' Penal Servitude. MR. CRAWFORD, for the prevention, stated that as the prisoners were man and wife, he should offer no evidence against


23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-756
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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756. WILLIAM JONES (28) , Unlawfully having counterfeit coin his possession, with intent to utter it; to which he

PLEADED GUILTY .*†— Confined Two Years.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-757
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty; Guilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment; Imprisonment

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757. SAMUEL TAYLOR (23), and GEORGE HEARN (16), was indicted for a like offence; to which

TAYLOR— PLEADED GUILTY .*— Confined Eighteen Months.

HEARN— PLEADED GUILTY .*— Confined Twelve Months.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-758
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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758. ELIZABETH BAKER (24) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.

MR. CRAWFORD and ROWDEN conducted the Prosecution.

FRANCES DEWHURST . I keep a fancy repository in High-street, Tottenham—on 12th September, the prisoner came for a strip of muslin, it came to 1 1/2 d.; she gave me a half-crown; I put it in the till and kept my eye on it till I gave it up to the constable soon afterwards—this is it (produced)—I gave her 2s. 4 1/2 d. change.

Prisoner. Q. You gave it to another lady? A. Yes, and she laid it on the table—I am sure it is the same; I marked it.

HARIETTE GRAHAM . My husband keeps a china shop in High-street, Tottenham, about half-a-mile from Mrs. Dewhurst's, in the same street—on 12th September, the prisoner came for a glass salt cellar, which came to 4 1/2 d., and gave me a half-crown, I gave her 2s. 1 1/2 d. change—I bit the half-crown; it seemed bad, and I sent it to a neighbour, who said that it was bad—I kept it in my hand till I gave it to a policeman; this (produced) is it—here is my cross on it.

JOHN ADAMS (Policeman, M 109). On 12th September, I received information and watched the prisoner into Mm Graham's shop—I met Mrs. Graham at the door, and received this half-crown from her; she marked it—the prisoner had then left—I went after her, took her, and told her the charge—she said that she was not aware she had any bad money, and if she had she took it from an omnibus conductor coming from Waltham Abbey to Edmonton—there is no such omnibus—she was searched, and 16s. 5d. in good money was found upon her—I afterwards received this other marked half-crown (produced) from Mrs. Dewhurst.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . I am inspector of coin to Her Majesty's mint—these half-crowns are both bad.

GUILTY .— Confined Nine Months.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-759
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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759. THOMAS JONES (18), was indicted for a like offence.

MESSRS. CRAWFORD and COOK conducted the Prosecution.

CAROLNIE THORN . My husband keeps the Eastern Stores beer-shop, Somer's-town—on 12th August, the prisoner came there for some ale, which came to 1 1/2 d.; he gave me a half-crown; I put it in my private purse, where there was no other, and gave him 2s. 4 1/2 d. change—he came again next day for a glass of beer; he gave me a half-crown; I gave him 2s. 4 1/2 d. change, and put it with the other—he came again on the 29th, 30th, and 31st, on which day I first discovered the coins to be bad—he called for half a pint of beer and one penny-worth of tobacco, and gave me a florin—he heard me say I will get change, and said, "I will go away;" but Henry Ward, who I employ, took him and sent for a policeman—I said to Ward, "It is bad," and he bent it and gave it back to me—this is it (produced)—I said to the prisoner, "I have been looking for you a long while, you have passed a great deal of bad coin, and I have got you now"—he made no answer—I sent Ward for a policeman, and I took the two half-crowns and I florin to the station, and gave them to the sergeant; these are them—the prisoner was in the bar with the door shut, till Ward came back with the policeman.

JURY. Q. What time did he come on 31st? A. 2 o'clock—I did not detect that the half-crowns were bad, till Saturday night, when I went to give change—that was after I had discovered that the florin was bad.

MR. CRAWFORD. Q. Are you sure you gave the prisoner in custody the same day that he passed the florin? A. Yes.

HENRY WARD . I am a barman, out of a situation—on Tuesday, 3d September, I was barman at Mr. Thorn's, and saw the prisoner for the first time—he came in and called for half a pint of porter—Mrs. Thorn made a sign to me and the prisoner countermanded his order and said, u Make a pint of it, I will fetch my friend;" and he ran away—I do not know whether he saw Mrs. Thorn make the sign—on Thursday, the 15th, he came again, and called for half a pint of porter and a screw of tobacco—Mrs. Thorn served him—he offered her a florin—she handed it to me in the prisoner's presence—I tried it, bent it, gave it back to her, detained the prisoner, and sent for a policeman—Mrs. Thorn told the prisoner that the florin was bad, and that she had been looking for him for some time as he had been passing bad money for some time.

CHARLES PRIOR (Policeman, S 298). On 5th September I was sent for to the Australian public-house, Somer's town, and Mrs. Thorn gave the prisoner into my custody for passing two half-crowns and a florin, which she gave me—these arc them (produced)—he was searched but nothing found.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . These coins are all bad.

Prisoners Defence. The florin was handed into the other box, and whether it was changed there or not I cannot say.


23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-760
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown; Guilty > unknown

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760. ALFRED GEORGE PARR (26), and MARY PARR (27) , Unlawfully having counterfeit coin in their possession, with intent to utter it.

MR. CRAWFORD and COOK conducted the Prosecution.

GEORGIANA VIDNELL . I am assistant to Mr. Booker, a draper—on 11th September the prisoner, Mary, came for a cap-front—it came to 6 3/4 d.—she offered me a half-crown—I told her it was bad, and gave it to my master—he examined it, found it was bad, and gave it back to me, she then put a good half-crown on the counter—while Mr. Booker was gone out to get change I gave her the bad half-crown back—she was then given in custody.

Mary Parr. Q. Did not Mr. Booker say three or four times over, that it was not bad? A. He said so two or three times, in order to keep you while he went for a policeman—I did not hear him say to me, "How could you be so foolish as not to take it, for it is good."

LAWRENCE RYAN (Police-sergeant, E 15). On 11th September, I was called to the shop and the prisoner was given into my charge—she said, "Do not you touch me, I live in a policeman's house, and I am respectable"—she put her right hand to her mouth—I laid hold of her by the neck, before and behind, and she threw herself on the ground—I kept hold of her throat, had she endeavoured to gulp something down—I felt something pass down her throat, I then let go of her—I asked her for the bad money she had—she said she had none, she had only a good half-crown—I found on her a good half-crown and a farthing—I asked her where she lived, she said, Tichfield-street, Soho, the first floor back room—I took her to the station, and then went to her address, saw Mrs. Dickens, the landlady, who took me to the back room first floor, where I found the male prisoner—I asked him his name—he said, "Parr"—I told him his wife was in custody for passing had money, and asked him whether he had any bad money in the room—he said that he had not—I searched the room, and found in a washhand-stand drawer, wrapped up in a piece of paper, these nine bad half-crowns (produced)—I took him in custody, and found on him three shillings and three half-pence—I saw the landlady next morning, she gave me these three bad half-sovereigns (produced).

Alfred George Parr. Q. Was there not a sovereign in her purse? A. No; I found a purse concealed in the bed-tick, with four duplicates in it, but no money—two of the duplicates refer to property stolen from the land-lord—when I asked you if you had any bad money in the room, you did not say, "None that I am aware of."

ANN DICKENS . I am the wife of Abraham Dickens, of 1, Tichfield-street—the prisoners lodged on our first floor back—I took Sergeant Ryan to their room, and heard him ask the male prisoner where his wife was—he said that he did not know, he had not seen her since dinner time—the policeman said that she was in custody for passing bad money—he then searched the place, and found nine bad half-crowns in a wash hand-stand drawer—I then perceived that some of my goods were gone, and charged the male prisoner with taking them—he was taken in custody—I cleared out the room next day, and found three bad half-sovereigns wrapped up in a piece of paper separately—I gave them to the sergeant the next morning—there were clothes and papers in the drawers, some men's collars, both clean and dirty, and a man's flannel shirt.

Alfred George Parr. Q. Have not you known me to be a working man? A. Yes; you always went out to work, as I thought, in the morning—you were not at work the week you were taken.

WILLIAM WEBSTER These nine half-crowns are bad—these two are from one mould, and these five are from one mould—they are wrapped up in this way to keep them from rubbing after they are coloured.

Alfred George Parr's Defence. A woman came to my place on the Wednesday previous, and asked my wife, unknown to me, whether she would take care of the counterfeit coin which was found there; my wife said you must not leave it here, my husband will scold me, and chuck it in the fire; she said, "I will leave it in this drawer; he will not see it here;" I work hard for my living.

Mary Parr's Defence. I am innocent of uttering, but am guilty of knowing that the bad money was in my possession; does it stand to reason that I could swallow a half-crown with the policeman holding me by the throat; my husband is quite innocent; the money was left with me by Mrs. Scott, who lives in Crown-street, So ho.


MARY PARR.— GUILTY .*†— Confined Two Years. (See also Fourth Court, Thursday).

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-761
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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761. WILLIAM MARTIN (29) , Feloniously forging and uttering an order for the payment of 8l. 4s. with intent to defraud; to which he

PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months.

There was another indictment against the prisoner.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-762
VerdictGuilty > unknown

Related Material

762. WILLIAM JONES (18) , Stealing 1 handkerchief, the property of Charles Scott, from his person.

MR. GIFFARD conducted the Prosecution.

CHARLES SCOTT . I am a commercial traveller, living at Forest Hill, Kent—on 18th September, about half-past 7, I was in Arthur-street, London Bridge, felt something at my coat-pocket, turned round and saw the prisoner running away—I missed my handkerchief—he was immediately behind me—he ran about 100 yards—I caught him, and he pretended not to know anything of it—he laid down behind a piece of timber—I pulled him out and asked him for my handkerchief—he pretended to be asleep—I told him that would not do, he must find my handkerchief—he said that he had not got it—I said that I should give him in charge—he said he was very sorry, he hoped I should forgive him and let him go—he slipped his coat and waistcoat off and tried to escape—a man then came up and said, "Here is your handkerchief; I saw him drop it," and gave it to me.

Prisoner. Q. What can you swear to me by? A. By not losing sight of you; you were behind me, and I saw you start—there was nobody else who could have taken it.

THOMAS WILLIAMSON (City-policeman, 516). I received information, and saw the prosecutor holding the prisoner, who was given into my custody for stealing a handkerchief—he said that he had not done it, he had been lying down behind a piece of timber for the last three-quarters of an hour, fast asleep—I took him to the station.

COURT. Q. Is there any public clock near to that place? A. There are two or three clocks, but they could not be seen from the wood where the prisoner was.

Prisoner's Defence. I was asleep at the time. He might have made a mistake in the party. A house is being built at the corner, and the person may have gone round the turning.

GUILTY .†— Confined Eighteen Months.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-763
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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763. PETER WHITE (30) , Stealing 5 pounds of silk, the property of Richard Durrant and others, his masters.

MR. KEMP conducted the Prosecution.

WILLIAM HOLCROFT . I am a warehouseman in the employ of Messrs. Durrant—the prisoner was their porter, and has been in their service nearly ten years—on the evening of 22d August, I shut up the premises about 7 o'clock, and left shortly afterwards, leaving the prisoner there—it was his duty to remain till 10, when the night porter Lomas goes in to sleep, and the prisoner leaves—on the night in question, I returned with Lomas at 10 o'clock, and saw the prisoner with a cap on, and a hat-box in his hand about to leave the premises—I asked him what he had got in that hat-box—he said, "A hat"—I requested to see it—he said, "Why?"—I asked him the same question several times, and at last he said, "Then I will let you see it"—he crossed the office into his own room, and began untying the string on the opposite side of the counter to me, tipped the lid on one side, and said, "There; nothing but a hat"—having a safety lamp in my hand I could not see, so I tipped the lid on one side and saw that it was this bundle of silk (produced)—I put it on the counter, asked him if that was his hat, and told him I must acquaint the gentlemen of the house—I asked him what he was going to do with it, and he said that he did not know—he was allowed to go home in a minute or two, and was given in custody next morning—on Thursday evening, just before 7 o'clock, he brought this bag, carrying it in such a manner as to indicate that there was nothing in it—I afterwards went up into his room while he was out, and ascertained that the box was quite empty—here are five pounds and a few ounces of silk, at 30s. per pound—the silk is kept in the basement of the warehouse—the prisoner had access to all the premises, but he ought not to go down to the basement after I left—I can swear to the silk—only Mr. Snewitt, who lives in the house, and the servant-maid, were in the house.

Cross-examined by MR. POLAND. Q. Next morning, about the usual time, did he come to the premises? A. Yes—I do not know that he did anything—he remained on the premises till about half-past 1, when he was, given in, custody—I remember his being away ill for some weeks in March last—I do not know that it was inflammation of the brain; but one night he fell down in a fit which rendered him insensible, and he was sent to the hospital—I visited him when he was ill, and thought he was very strange in his manner—Mr. Kingdom, the prosecutor's surgeon, was sent to attend him—he was away from service the greater part of three months—I have repeatedly thought that he has not been the same man since—his manner at times has been strange.

JOHN FITTINGHAM (City-policeman, 173). On 23d August I went to Messrs. Durrant's premises, and the prisoner was given into my custody—I asked him how he came to take the silk—he said he did not know; he was queer in the head; he had got a mania in his head, which he could not account for—he gave a correct address.

Cross-examined. Q. Did you go to the address? A, Yes; and searched, but found no silk.

LEVY COXALL . I am in the silk department of Messrs. Durrant and Co.—I have several times seen the prisoner leave the premises with a hat-box similar to this—it was always tied up with string four times across; and it always appeared heavy—I saw him leave on 27th July with a hat-box like this; it appeared heavy—he carried it by the centre of the string—I had seen him bring it in in the morning—it then appeared light by the way he carried it, by the single string behind—on Saturday, 23d, he brought in a

hat-box with a hat in it which he showed me, saying he had bought it of a hatter for 10s. 6d., and asked me how it fitted—he took the box into the back room, brought the new hat into the front room to show me, and then took the hat into the back room, and went down stairs—I went into the back-room and saw the hat-box standing half open without any hat in it, and the hat in the cupboard—I afterwards saw the box in the cupboard, tied with string, and the hat lying by the side of it—I lifted the box and it weighed eight or ten pounds—I afterwards saw the prisoner going along Throgmorton-street with the box the same day, with the new hat on—the box appeared heavy as when in the cupboard—he passed close by me, my elbow almost touched his; and I think he saw me, but he took no notice of me—on Thursday, 8th August, I saw him about half-past 6, carrying a similar hat-box by the back string—I afterwards saw him carrying a hat-box in Broad-street, about 10 o'clock, by the centre of the string, and it appeared heavy.

CHARLES BAKER (Police-sergeant). I went to the prisoner's address, 19, Wilmot-street, Bethnal-green-road, and found eight or ten hat-boxes and band-boxes—a great part of them were empty—one had a bonnet in it, and one a hat—they had no name on them—I made inquiries round the neighbourhood, and went to Mr. Barnes.

Cross-examined. Q. Had some of the boxes working trousers in them? A. Yes—there were four in one place empty.

JOSHUA BARNES . I am a hat maker, of 33, Bell-alley, Silver-street—I know the prisoner as a customer—he bought this box of me—I cannot say when, but I sold him one like this on 22d August, about 3 o'clock in the afternoon—I have sold him hat-boxes frequently, about once a fortnight—he gave me no reason, only that the boxes were liked at the firm, and he bought them for other people—I have sold him about eight—this has extended over a period of three months.

Cross-examined. Q. What was the price of them? A. Sixpence.

GUILTY .— Three Years' Penal Servitude.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-764
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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764. ROBERT SKEET (18) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.

MESSRS. CRAWFORD and ROWDEN conducted the Prosecution.

JOHN ELLIOTT (Policeman, E 90). On Friday, 23d August, I was called to Mr. James' shop, in Tottenham-court-road, about twenty minutes past 9 in the morning—I found the prisoner there—Mr. James charged him with having passed a bad shilling—I tried it, it bent it was bad—I handed it back to Mr. James, and it was afterwards destroyed—Mr. James did not press the charge, and the prisoner was not given into custody.

Prisoner. Q. Have you any doubt about me? A. Not the least.

MARY GRIFFIN . I am the wife of John Griffin, of Dolphin-court, Oxford-street—I keep a coffee-stall in the street at the corner of Regent's-circus, in Oxford-street—on Friday morning, 23d August, the prisoner came to my stall about 7 o'clock, for a halfpenny worth of coffee, and a halfpenny worth of bread and butter—he gave me half a crown—I gave him 2s. 5d. change—I did not observe anything about the half-crown at that time—I took it home and showed it to my husband—I sent him with it for some bread, and he came back to me and said, "It is no use"—they would not take it—he gave it to me, and I rolled it up in a piece of paper, put it in my bosom, and kept it by itself till I gave it to the policeman—next morning, Saturday, about 7 o'clock, the prisoner came to me and asked for a half-penny worth of coffee, and a halfpennyworth of bread and butter—I was busy at the time—he gave me a two-shilling piece—I had suspicious about

it—I knew it the very minute he went away—I gave him change—I did not find that it wan bad till about half-past 9—I tried it at the time, but was busy—I had no other florin that morning—I took this one home to my husband—I sent him to get some butter with it, and he came back and said it was no use—he gave it back to me—I put it with the half-crown, and afterwards gave it to the constable—I next saw the prisoner on Monday morning, the 26th, at 7 o'clock—he asked for a halfpennyworth of coffee, and a halfpennyworth of bread and butter—I served him with the coffee—he gave me a bad half-crown—I knew him again—I had my eye on him—I took the half-crown, went round the table to him, and said, "Give me those two shillings that I gave you on Saturday morning; I will give you the rest, and won't give you in charge to the policeman"—he denied having given me a two-shilling piece—I bent the half-crown all round, and said, "It will be no use to you; you can't put it off on anybody else"—he gave it back to me again, and I bent it worse; then I chucked it out in the road—he picked it up, and walked away with it leisurely up Oxford-street—I followed him, and beckoned to a policeman—he put the half-crown down the area of a grocer's shop in Oxford-street—I brought the policeman back, and showed him where it was—I was behind the prisoner when he threw it, and saw him—I gave him in custody with the half-crown and two-shilling piece that I had had before—I told the policeman what for—he came back afterwards for the half-crown down the area, and picked it up.

JOHN GRIFFIN . My wife gave me a half-crown on Friday, 30th August, and a two-shilling piece on Saturday, 31st August—I gave them back to her—they said they were bad ones; I did not know—the last half-crown was given on Monday, the 2d September.

WILLIAM JAMES (Policeman, C 71). I was on duty in Oxford-street on 2d September—I was called by Mrs. Griffin, and the prisoner was given into my custody for uttering the two half-crowns and a two-shilling piece—she handed me a half-crown and a two-shilling piece, and told me that the prisoner had been and tried to pass another half-crown, that she had bent it, and he threw it down an area, and she went and showed me where—the prisoner could hear that—I had hold of his arm—I saw it down the area, bent—the shop was not open at the time, and I went to the station and left the prisoner there; and then went back and got the half-crown—I produce it, and also the other two coins—the prisoner said, when he heard the charge, that he did not pass the two-shilling piece, nor the previous half-crown—I searched him—nothing was found on him.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . These coins are bad, and from different moulds.

Prisoner's Defence. I am innocent of all except the last—I was not out of my mother's house at the time the woman says I passed the bad halfcrown—I enlisted that morning, here is my militia paper—I work very hard for my living.

GUILTY .— Confined Nine Months.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-765
VerdictGuilty > unknown

Related Material

765. JOHN NORTON (36) was indicted for a like offence.

MESSRS. CRAWFORD and ROWDEN conducted the Prosecution.

LUCY TRUMAN . I am the wife of Thomas Truman, a tobacconist, of 33, Upper Albany-street—on Thursday, 5th September, the prisoner came for half an ounce of tobacco—he gave me a shilling, I put it in the till, there was no other shilling there—I saw my husband take it out—the prisoner cam; again on the following Wednesday for half an ounce of tobacco—he gave a shilling—I bent it, and said, "You have brought me another bad shilling, this is the second you have brought me within a week"—he said,

"I can bend any shilling"—I said, "I can only bend a bad one"—my husband took it from me and followed the prisoner.

Prisoner. She put the shilling into her pocket, pulled out a handful of silver and gave me change.

Witness. I put the first shilling into the till—I had not enough change, and you came the next day for three halfpence which was the balance.

MR. CRAWFORD Q. When he came the next day for the three halfpence, had you found out that the shilling was bad? A. Yes; but my husband advised me to say nothing about it, as he would be sure to come back again.

JOHN TRUMAN . I am the husband of the last witness—I came into the shop on the first occasion, and saw the prisoner served with the tobacco by my wife—he gave her a shilling, which she put in the till—there was only this shilling there—I found it was bad and marked it—on the following Wednesday I was called into the shop, and found the prisoner there—I saw him pay my wife another shilling—I could not hear what he said—he spoke Tory low—my wife said that if he did not go, she would give him in charge to the police—I let him go out and followed him—I heard my wife charge him with giving her a bad shilling, and having given her one before—I subsequently tried the shilling, and bent it nearly double—I gave the prisoner in charge with the two shillings.

JOHN ALCHIN (Policeman, 877) The prisoner was given in my custody with these two shillings (produced)—he was searched at these station, and another bad shilling was found on him.

WILLIAM WEBSTER , These coins are all bad.

GUILTY .— Confined Nine Months.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-766
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown; Guilty > unknown

Related Material

766. DANIEL DONOGHUE (47), and JOHN KIRTLAND (33), were indicted for a like offence.

MESSRS. CRAWFORD and ROWDEN conducted the Prosecution.

ABRAHAM ELLIOTT . I keep the Fishmonger's-arms, 13, Holles-street, Clare-market—on 13th August, Donoghue came in and read the newspaper for a quarter of an hour—Kirtland then came in with a woman and child, and several other persons, but whether they were in his society I do not know—Donoghue ordered a pot of porter, which came to threepence—he gave me a shilling, and I gave him ninepence out—I had seen Kirtland give him something, but do not know what—Kirtland and some of the others drank it—I put the shilling in the till, there was no other shilling there—about half an hour afterwards Donoghue called for another pot of beer; it came to threepence—he gave me another shilling, I gave him nine-pence change, and then discovered that it was bad before putting it in the till—I flew to the till where I had put the first shilling, took it out and found it to be bad also—I kept one shilling in each hand, and said, "Leave that beer alone"—he said, "Why?"—I said, "You know why; you give me back that ninepence I gave you"—I took the beer from him—he said, "I have not got the ninepence"—I said, "How can you say so, when I have just this moment given it to you"—I told him he had given me a bad shilling—he said, "That man gave me the bad shilling," meaning Kirtland—I said, "Where is the ninepence?"—he said, "That man has got it"—I demanded it in a very peremptory manner from Kirtland, and he gave it to me—I had not put any other shilling into the till in the meantime—I said, "This sort of thing will not do, this is not the first one you have palmed on me this morning"—I sent for a policeman and gave him the

shillings—he took the prisoners in custody—there were no other were no other persons in the bar.

Donoghue. Q. Was I not a customer of yours? A. Yes; what you call for you are served with—the first shilling was half an hour in my possession before I detected it—nobody else served in the bar that morning—my wife was not up—I do not know whether my servant served—somebody brought me twelvepence in coppers that evening, and said that it was for the first shilling which I was minus of—that is the beer and the ninepence that I had given—you left some books with me two days before, I think—I saw Kirtland speak to you—you had two minutes' conversation and received something from him, and you had no sooner received it than you dabbed it down and said, "A pot of beer," and said to Kirtland, "You are a hearty good fellow"—there was other money in the till, but no shillings.

Kirtland. Q. Is your bar covered with pewter? A. Yes; we consider that we can tell from the sound whether money is good or bad—I am sure I never mixed these shillings with any other.

ELIZA PATON . I keep a tobacconist's shop in Clare-market, just opposite Mr. Elliott's—on Saturday, 24th August, Donoghue came in for half an ounce of tobacco, it came to three-halfpence—he gave me a shilling—I put it in the detector, bent it, gave it him back, and told him it was bad—he put it in his mouth, bent it straight and went out leaving the tobacco—he came back almost immediately with a good sixpence—I gave him the change, and he left with the tobacco—he did not say where he went to get the sixpence—a few minutes afterwards I saw a mob at Mr. Elliott's, and was informed that Donoghue was taken in custody—when he brought the sixpence back, he said, "Do not take the three-halfpence out of that because it is not mine".

Donoghue. Q. What time was it after you served me with the tobacco that I was given in custody? A. Five minutes afterwards—I did not come to Bow-street, because it was only on Sunday that I was told of it by a party going by, who said Donoghue is taken for passing bad money—I said, at Bow-street, that I was sorry I had come—I was never in such a place before, and it made me very nervous—I kept weeping all the time—you were not out a minute before you came back with the sixpence.

WILLIAM KITTLE (Policeman, F 69). On 24th August I was called to the Fishmongers' Arms, and the prisoners were given in my custody for passing these two bad shillings (produced)—Mr. Elliott gave them to me—Donoghue said, "Mr. Elliott, you will not give me in charge, you know me very well, and I am a customer of yours"—he said, at the station, that he had no knowledge of Kirtland, but only met him promiscuously and tried to sell him a box—I searched them—5 1/4 d. was found on Donoghue, and half an ounce of tobacco; and 8d., and a knife on Kirtland—I saw Donoghue in Clare-market on the evening before—he lives there—I saw him twice that evening—Kirtland was with him the second time—Donoghue said that he knew nothing about the shilling, he only took it from Kirtland to pay for some beer; that he received a shilling from Kirtland to get some tobacco and had some change out of it, which he returned to Kirtland, who paid for some beer out of the money.

Donoghue. Q. Where did you see us together? A. At the corner of Clare-market, about 7 o'clock—you were drunk and pulling the people over as you were passing, which made me notice you.

WILLIAM HENRY MONK (Policeman, F 73). On Friday evening, 23d August, I was on duty in Blackmore-street—the prisoners came up to me—

Donoghue asked me if I would partake of a glass of ale—I said, "No"—he said, "My friend with me," meaning Kirtland, "has a shilling or two to spend, and you may as well have a glass as anybody else"—he was drunk.

Donoghue. Q. What time was this? A. About 8 o'clock in the evening—I was in uniform, on duty—you have frequently spoken to me in Clare-market—every morning, when you brought your wife's stall out, you said, "Good morning, constable"—she has stood there sixteen or seventeen years, about 100 yards from the public-house.

COURT. Q. How long have you known Donoghue? A. Ever since I have I been in the force—he is not a respectable man—I hare very frequently seen him drunk, and have heard that he has been convicted.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . These coins are both bad.

Donoghue's Defence. I have been in that parish thirty years; what I have done wrong is down against me at Bow-street, but I never handled a counterfeit coin in my life. I went to Covent Garden-market to buy some fruit for my wife on this morning, and if I had had bad money I had more chance of passing it there than in a public-house; I brought the things home to where she has stood for sixteen years, and then went into this house to have a little refreshment. I believe a costermonger has more chance of getting rid of bad money among market people than anybody else; I laid out 2l. 15s. in the market, in gold and silver. I am innocent.

Kirtland's Defence. I am a hardworking man, and have been fifty years in that neighbourhood.


KIRTLAND— GUILTY .**— Confined Nine Months.

OLD COURT.—Wednesday, September 25th, 1861.

PRESENT—The Right Hon. the LORD MAYOR; Mr. Justice BYLES; SIR FRANCIS GRAHAM MOON, Bart, Ald.; Mr. Ald. HALE; and Mr. Ald. DAKIN.

Before Mr. Justice Byles.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-767
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

Related Material

767. DAVID GRIFFITH JONES (36), was indicted for wilful and corrupt perjury; to which he

PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-768
VerdictNot Guilty > no evidence

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768. DAVID GRIFFITH JONES was again indicted for feloniously forging and uttering a certain will, purporting to be the last will and testament of one Sophia Bellis.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE for the prosecution, offered no evidence.


23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-769
VerdictGuilty > unknown

Related Material

769. HENRY WILLSEA (21), was indicted for feloniously killing and slaying William Philo; he was also charged on the Coroner's inquistion with the like offence.

MR. ORRIDGE conducted like Prosecutions.

EDWARD FREEMAN . I am a pencil cutter, and live at 26, Pelham-street, Brick-lane—on Thursday night or Friday morning, 30th August, about 2

o'clock, I met the deceased and his wife in Shoreditch, coming towards the Eastern Counties Railway; the deceased had evidently been drinking very freely, and he and his wife were quarrelling—I persuaded him to get home—he asked her to come with him—she was frightened of his striking her, and said she should go to his cousin's and sleep, and not go home—she went across on to the other side of the way—I was speaking to her at the corner of Church-street, begging her to go in, when the prisoner came up and interfered, and asked if anybody had been hitting her—she said, "No"—I told him to go on about his business and not to interfere, it was a man and his wife having a few words—he refused to go on and kept making some remarks—Mr. Riley came up—the deceased came across with a knife in his hand—Riley said to me, "He has got a knife"—I turned round and took it out of his hand, shut it up, and put it in my pocket—with that his wife ran across the road to where some policemen were standing—the deceased followed her, I followed him, and the prisoner also followed—I said to him, "Why don't you go about your business?—he said, "I have a right to be here as well as anybody else"—I said, "You see the man is tipsy, why interfere?"—with that the deceased said, "What do you want to interfere with my wife for?" and he struck the prisoner—the moment he did that they began to spar—they fought for some four, five, or six minutes—the policemen then parted them—Riley then told the prisoner to shake hands, and go on about his business—they shook hands together, and I them laid hold of the deceased to take him home; we went one way and the prisoner another—about eight or ten minutes afterwards, as I was getting the deceased home, the prisoner came up again, tapped the deceased on the shoulder, and as he turned round he said, "You have struck me in the eye"—I told him again to go on about his business and not to interfere—the deceased smiled and said, "Well, I don't know that I struck you at all," and with that the prisoner up with his fist and struck him under the ear, and the man fell at my feet—he had not made any attempt to strike the prisoner; his hand was down.

Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. Q. Was the deceased about to strike his wife? A. No, not in my presence; they had been rowing—he was very tipsy—she went right away—I did not see much of her—I did not notice her crying—she was excited; I believe she was in fear of her husband striking her, and she ran away from him to the police; he walked after her as quickly as he could—he had not got the knife in his hand then; I had taken it away long before.

WILLIAM RILEY . I was in company with Philo and his wife, and Freeman on the night in question—I saw nothing of the prisoner until Philo had left me, and was walking across the road after his wife—he had a knife in his hand—I spoke to Freeman; the prisoner came up and said something to the woman—I did not hear what passed between them—she ran across the road, and the prisoner went over also to where there were some policeman standing—Philo walked across after the prisoner and said, "What have you had to do with my wife?"—the prisoner said, "I have a right to be here as well as anybody else"—Philo up with his fist and hit the prisoner in the eye or some part of his face—I said to the prisoner, "This young fellow is very drunk and has had a quarrel with his wife, go away; don't interfere any more; shake hands and make it up"—I put their hands together, and as I understood they were to have no more of it—we went

one way and he another—as we were standing at the corner of New-inn-yard, Shoreditch, when the prisoner came back, some seven or eight minutes afterwards, I turned round and said, "What is the use of your coming here to have any more quarrel?"—he touched the deceased and said, "You struck me first"—Philo was standing with his head down, and he said half laughing, "I don't know as I did"—the prisoner immediately stepped back, up with his right hand and hit him in the jaw or some part of the face, and he fell at my feet.

Cross-examined. Q. The deceased's wife was very frightened, was she not? A. She was frightened of him, and she ran away—she was not calling out—she said she would not go into the coffee-shop with him—there was a row.

WILLIAM POWELL . I am house surgeon at the London hospital—the deceased was brought there on Friday morning, 30th August, between 2 and 3; he was quite insensible, bleeding from the ear and exhibiting a great deal of restlessness and struggling—he died on the following Monday morning—I afterwards made a post mortem examination—I found that the cause of death was a laceration of the brain and a fracture at the base of skull—they were such injuries as are generally caused by a fall or blow, or any violence to the head—I do not know of a case in which a blow has directly caused it—a blow and a fall together would account fur the death.

Cross-examined. Q. Do you think it more likely to be caused by a fall? A. I do.

GUILTY .— Confined Two Months.

NEW COURT.—Wednesday, September 25th 1861.



Before Mr. Justice Keating.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-770
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

Related Material

770. HARRIET HARRIS (27) , Feloniously killing and slaying Mary Harris; she was also charged on the Coroner's inquisition with the like offence.

MR. GIFFARD conducted the Prosecution.

SARAH JONES . I live at 47, Bedfordbury, on the first floor—the prisoner and her husband occupied the second floor front, with their child—I recollect her being confined, but was not present—I saw her with a young child, and heard from her that she had had a child—that was about nine weeks before the child's death—it was a very little baby—it has been taken out by the mother, and I have taken it out—she took it out shortly before its death, and when she has returned she has been in liquor—she has always had it with her—I often saw her in liquor after its birth—she was not always in a state capable of attending to it—Mr. Harris did not always go out at night—he did not come home at all on the day the child died—I attended to it that day, as the mother was out also—I did not hear from her where she was—she was the worse for liquor—it was a delicate child—I gave it milk and arrowroot—Dr. Harvey saw it before it died, and Dr. Leonard after it was dead—a person who lodged up stairs took it to Dr. Harvey—the mother was then at home; not very well—that was the same week that it was born—her husband used not always to take his meals at home.

Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. How many other children had she?

A. Two, a boy about twelve and a girl about nine, as near as I can guess—I have known the prisoner ever since I have been in the house about eight months—I knew her about six months before her confinement—I have heard that she has had other children—I have children of my own—this was a delicate, weakly child, and very small—it was taken more than once to the doctor, I believe, before its death—the father was out the greater part of the time, and the mother had the whole household affaire to manage, and to take care of the other children—they did not keep a servant—she had to attend to the washing and everything—I have seen her take the child with her in her arms when she went out—I have sometimes heard her complain of being ill—as far as I saw, she attended to the child when sober—the other children went to school sometimes—she never complained to me about her milk—she complained of her breasts being sore more than once—she did not say that she had been the same, and suffered a great deal with the other children—she also complained of deficiency of milk—it is a fact that women who are suffering sometimes take more beer than they otherwise would, to increase the milk it is ordered them, and wine sometimes—I have heard brandy ordered, but I cannot say that Mrs. Harris had it—the child was nine weeks old—I have seen it from its birth to its death—I have seen her suckling it and feeding it with a spoon—the father and mother were both out on the day of its death—Mr. Harris had not been at home for a week—he and his wife had had a few words—he did not return home on the day of its death, but I believe she went round to him in the evening—I cannot say whether she left before the child died—I did not see her return—it died when she was out—I cannot say how long before that it had been taken to a medical man but I heard Mrs. Harris say that she had taken it herself to Dr. Harvey—she complained to me that week of the child being very ailing, and of being left without her husband—she said she was going out to look for him.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. You say she attended to her child when sober, how often did you see her sober between its birth and its death? A. Not very often.

MARY ANN RICKETTS . I occupied the second-floor back room in this house the next room to the prisoner's—I was there before she was confined, and remained till after the child's death—I would not say she has not taken it out, but I have not seen her with it—about a fortnight before its death, it was left by itself in the room from 9 in the morning till 4 in the afternoon, and it may be later; I cannot say to a quarter of an hour—from the Sunday to the Tuesday I know she was out from the morning till the evening—the child died on the Tuesday—when she was away there was only her little girl and boy to attend to it and give it nourishment—I do not know their ages, but they look about nine and ten—I have given the child something, but I cannot recollect more than once—Mrs. Jones is the person who fed it—the children took it down to her—it was a fortnight or three weeks before its death that I fed it—she had a bad breast when the baby was quite young—I saw it—I cannot say whether there was a supply of milk for the baby—I have seen her come back the worse for liquor, and have seen her come back not the worse for liquor—I took the child to Mr. Harvey.

LEWIS HART . I live at 14, Bear-street, Leicester-square, and am the landlord of 47, Bedfordbury—I remember the child's death—I was told of it by my shopman—I attended before the Coroner—I have seen the prisoner about six months—she lived in my house during that period, and I do not believe she has ever been one day sober.

Cross-examined. Q. What is your house? A. A coffee-house, that is all—no complaint has been made of it, that I am aware of—acme have been made by the police—I am the landlord of the house she lives in—I do not live there—my shopman does—he has the shop and parlour—I put him there in charge of the house—he takes the management of the business—I let out the shop to him—he pays me rent for it—he manages the letting of the other portions of it, and receives the rents for me—I live in Bear-street, bat I am in Bedfordbury every day—I am married, and have got a large family—the prisoner's husband paid the rent—he would pay me when he saw me, and sometimes I had to go after him, and sometimes I did not get it at all—the shopman received it when he could get it, and when he could not I went after it—I most always received it from the husband—the prisoner never paid me—the husband only owes a fortnight—I never had any trouble in getting it from him—it has happened that he did not pay me, but that has been through the wife getting drunk with the money—No. 14, Bear-street is not charged with having being a brothel—I swear that—my shopman had a better opportunity of seeing the prisoner than I had, and he always gave me a very bad account of her—he is not here, because he was not required—I volunteered to go before the Coroner—betides attending to the coffee-shop, I attended to the marine-store business, in Bedfordbury—I live at 14, Bear-street, and carry on business there as a coffee-shop—I have another place of business at 47, Bedfordbury, which is let out in tenements, and I carry on the business of a rag merchant—the shopman lives there, and carries it on for me—he pays me rent when he gets it from the lodgers, and what he gets from the shop—he receives the rent every week of the lodgers—he does pay me rent for the shop—I do not see what it has to do with this case how much he pays me for it—he pays me no rent for the shop, but he pays rent for the house; I told you shop, instead of house—he does not pay me a distinct rent for the house—you have been asking me so many curious questions that I hardly know what I answer—I told you the house, and if you said the shop I cannot help it—I have never been in trouble—I have been there sixteen years.

JAMES LEONARD . I am a surgeon, at 2, Salisbury-street, Strand—in consequence of the Coroner's order, I went to 47, Bedfordbury, to see the child—it was dead, and exceedingly attenuated—I never saw a child in such a state before—it was so exceedingly worn that its legs were not thicker than my finger, and its whole weight would not exceed 3 1/2 lbs.; certainly not 4lbs.—there was no external mark of violence—I made a post mortem examination, and found the organs perfectly healthy throughout—there was no fat whatever; not there slightest—there was no disease that could in any way account for its death—want of proper nourishment would account for what I saw.

Cross-examined. Q. How soon after death did you see the child? A. Less than twenty-four hours—I was informed that it died on the Tuesday evening, and I saw it on the early part of Wednesday afternoon—decomposition had set in—I do not think it would have been in a better condition if I had examined it immediately after death—my first examination was only an external one—the post mortem examination did not take place till about seventy-two hours after death—I do not think it would have offered any more satisfactory results if I had examined it immediately after death, because the decomposition was more on the exernal surface—there was scarcely any internal decomposition there was a little—I think want of nourishment might have caused it to be in that state, and I formed an

opinion from what I saw and heard—a long course of want of attention to so young a child might have assisted very much towards the state I found it in—there was no disease whatever—when there is a tendency to atrophy in young children there is always a cause for it—I should say that atrophy does not exist without previous disease—I hare not seen it in young children—I do not know, from my reading, that in young children there is a tendency to waste away without any perceivable organic disease—if a mother's breast was diseased, and her milk bad, it might affect the child temporarily, because she finds it a painful operation to give the child nourishment with a diseased breast—if the quality of the milk is bad, that would affect a child—insufficiency in quantity, and badness in quality of the milk, would account for the appearances I saw—I had never seen the child before its death—Dr. Harvey was present with me at the post mortem examination—I examined the lungs; they were perfectly healthy, and almost colourless, except the posterior portion, into which the blood had gravitated—there was bile in the gall bladder—the eyes presented a dull appearance, and were covered with a thickened mucus—they were partly closed—they were the natural colour—I do not think it is universally the case where persons have died of starvation, that the eyes are open and present a fiery-red appearance, as in a case of acute ophthalmia, and it is not the case—it is so in grown-up people, but this child was too young for this and in grown-up people it is only in some bad cases—I have seen very few persons, thank God, who have died of starvation, but I say so because the quantity of blood in the body is insufficient to produce the effect—I have never seen a child before that died of starvation—I have only read parts of Dr. Taylor's book—allow me to explain my views; the want of blood in this child was evident throughout the body: there was not a particle of blood in any of the vessels which I severed, not ten drops of blood escaped, and there was not blood enough in the body to produce those appearance—the same thing would not apply to an adult, unless it was a case of sudden loss of nourishment—in a short case it might be—in the case of a person who died from a starvation of twenty-three days, I think there would still be sufficient fluid to produce the effect, but if it was spread over many weeks I think it would be different.

ALFRED HARVEY , M.D. I live at 16, Tavistock-street, Covent-garden—I was requested to be present at the post mortem examination of this child—I had seen it before several times—the mother had not brought it to me—I could find no disease—I feared mesenteric disease—that is an hereditary disease, or it may be brought on by bad living; either insufficient or Improper food—the proximate cause of the child's death was inanition, wasting—the organs were all perfectly healthy, which leads me to the conclusion that it died from want of sufficient nourishment—I form my judgment by comparing the symptoms after death with the appearances during life.

Cross-examined. Q. Is there any disease of the mesenteric glands, common to children? A. Yes—it might lead to atrophy—atrophy would be the symptom that would account for the appearances presented, if they were there, but I am able to say, from the post mortem examination, that they were not there—you would have enlarged mesenteric glands, and the mesenteric glands were not enlarged, they were not wasted; they were in a normal condition—I should not have been able to form an opinion better if I had examined the child earlier—the internal organs were perfectly fresh—I should say that a post mortem examination ought to be early—whether that rule would apply more strongly to the case of a young child would

depend upon the condition of the child—I do not think it would be more so than in an adult, because in an older person you have more flesh and more than, and putrefaction is more rapid and where there is no flesh and nothing to decompose, decomposition does not set in so soon—I agree that food insufficient in quantity and bad in quality would account for the appearances I saw—I have a memorandum that the child was brought to me five times before its death—I saw it every time, and I believe it was brought to me on another occasion, but cannot say—whether that was by the mother I cannot say—I gave it tonics; iron was the last medicine it had—I was told that it was weak and sickly from its birth.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. Can you say whether the prisoner ever brought you the child? A. She did not.

MARY BRENNAN (not examined in chief).

Cross-examined. Q. I believe you saw the prisoner in the evening? A. yes, Tuesday, the 28th, the day the child died' she sent her boy for me—she seemed in great distress—she said, "My baby has just departed"—I had just put my children to bed—it was past 10 o'clock when I met her—I went home with her—she was sober—her husband was not there—I found the child dead—I have seen a great deal of it—I have been in the habit of seeing much of Mrs. Harris—I have met her going to market—she has been sober when I have seen her—I have seen her sometimes twice a day, and sometimes not at all, and she has been sober—I have seen the child with her at times—she appeared very fond of it—she treated it with care—I had not seen it on the day it died, but I met her the day before in the Bury—the child was very sickly from its birth—I took it to the doctor for her.


23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-771
VerdictGuilty > with recommendation

Related Material

771. HENRY BOARMAND (15) , Feloniously throwing on Bridget Murray certain corrosive fluid, with intent to do her some grievous bodily harm.

MR. LANGFORD conducted the Prosecution.

BRIDGET MURRAY . I live at 46, Hyde-street, Bloomsbury, and am servant to Mr. Burridge—on 18th September, about half-past 10 o'clock, I met the prisoner in Rathbone-place, carrying this bottle (produced)—I had never seen him before—I thought they were drinking it, and I said "Is not it nice?"—he turned round and tried to kick me—I then turned round and asked him, did he do it? and he took the bottle and threw some of what was in it, on my face and neck, and on my dress and clothes—it burnt very much—this (produced) is the cloak and dress I had on they were quite sound before, there was not a hole in them—my bonnet is at home—the prisoner ran away and I went to a doctor's—I did not remain ill long; it pained me very much for that day, Wednesday—it did not pain me much on Thursday, and it was over on Friday.

Cross-examined by MR. BEST. Q. Is he a French boy? A. Yes—I do not know whether he had on a pair of blue trousers—I did not take hold of his arm and shake him.

JOHN GATLERS . I am a baker of 22, Rathbone—place—on Wednesday morning, 18th September, at half-past 2 o'clock, I was in Rathbone-place and saw the prisoner throw something out of this bottle at the girl.

THOMAS HORN (Policeman, C 21). I took the prisoner in Bathbone-place—I told him the charge, and asked him where the bottle was—he said, "This is it"—he had it in his hand—I asked him what he had been doing—he said that it was not his fault, and took the cork out of the bottle and showed me how he had done it—I said. "This is not the bottle, this is only

common varnish"—he said, "This is the bottle"—the people standing by said that it was not the bottle, and he afterwards acknowledged that it was not—I asked him where it was—he said that it was at home in his shop—I went there and found the bottle placed behind the door on the floor—I took it to the station, and it was identified by the two last witnesses—I took it to Mr. Brown, the chemist—I know that it was the prisoner's shop because I took him in custody there, and he was seen to run in there—it is a lamp-maker's shop.

JOHN BROWN . I am a chemist of 4, Cross-street, Carnaby-street—on 8th September, Horn brought me this bottle—it contained nitric acid—that is a corrosive fluid, and would burn a person's face and clothes.

The prisoner received a good character from his master, who engaged so employ him again.

GUILTY.—Recommended to mercy by the jury.— Confined Eighteen Months.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-772
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

Related Material

772. WILLIAM CHANNER (19) , Robbery on Charles Dawson, and stealing from his person 1 purse, and 4s. 6d in money, his property.

MR. PARK conducted the Prosecution.

CHARLES DAWSON . I am errand boy to Mr. Harris, a cheesemonger, of 496, New Oxford-street—on 16th September I was in Bloomsbury-court, putting a sixpence in my purse—the prisoner snatched it out of my hand and ran towards Bloomsbury-square—I halloed, "Stop thief!" and he turned back and hit me a blow on the side of my cheek and knocked me down—this is my purse (produced)—it contained 4s. 6d.

NOAH HOOPER (Policeman, E 123). On 16th September about 10 o'clock at night I was in Bloomsbury-court, heard a cry of "Stop thief!" saw the prisoner run away, and heard mosey drop from him—I saw the prosecutor scrambling on the ground—I followed him through Market street, Park-street, Bloomsbury-square, into Montague-street—he got ahead of me, and I called "Stop thief!"—ray brother constable took him—I looked for the money afterwards which I had heard drop, and found it in an area—this puns and this shilling, sixpence, fourpence, and threepenny piece (produced) they were not in the purse, but scattered about—the prosecutor identified the purse at Bow-street station—the area was so situated that he could throw the purse as he ran.

JOHN WOODWIN (Policeman, K 127). On 16th September I saw the prisoner run out of Bloomsbury-square—"s soon as he passed me I heard I call of "Stop thief!" looked round and saw my brother constable running after him—I asked him what he had done and said I would take him back—I did so, but could not see the prosecutor—he afterwards came to the station and said, "That is the man that stole my purse, and knocked me down afterwards."

Prisoner. Q. Why did not you take hold of me when I passed you? A. Because I did not bear "Stop thief" called.

Prisoner's Defence. I was going home, there were several people running and the policeman took me. The boy says I am the person on purpose to get his money back. The policeman did not mention hearing money drop till next morning when he found it.

GUILTY .—He was further charged with having been before convicted.

HOLMES (Police-sergeant, F 3). I produce a certificate—(Read:—"Westminster Sessions, February, 1858.—William Channer, convicted on his own confession of stealing a handkerchief from the person. Confined Twelve Months.) The prisoner is the man—I had him in custody, and have known him for years.

GUILTY**— Six years' Penal Servitude.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-773
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

Related Material

773. JOHN FOWKES (40), was indicted for a rape on Hester Jones.

MR. ROWDEN conducted the Prosecution; and MESSERS. SLEIGH and TAYLOR the Defence,—The prisoner received a good character.


THIRD COURT.—Wednesday, September 25th, 1861.


Before Robert Malcolm Kerr, Esq.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-774
VerdictsNot Guilty > no evidence

Related Material

774. FREDERICK WRIGHT (26) , Stealing, on 29th April, 4 lbs. of broad and 4 lbs. of flour, on 30th April, 4 lbs. of bread, and on lst May, 41bs. of bread, the property of William M' Cash, his master; also on 3d May, 4 lbs. of bread, the property of his said master; upon which MR. METCALFE, for the

Prosecution, offered no evidence.


23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-775
VerdictsGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentencesImprisonment > penal servitude

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775. JOHN RICHARD TOMS (28) Stealing on 14th January, 100l.; on 26th April 100l.; and on 10th May 100l., the monies of Frederick Dennant and others, his masters; also, on 18th May, 100l., and on 27th of June 100l., the monies of his said masters; to which he PLEADED GUILTY .

He received a good character.— Six Years' Penal Servitude.

Before Mr. Recorder.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-776
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

Related Material

776. ALBERT COWAN ADAMS (23) , Stealing, whilst employed in the Post Office, 6 post-letters, three of which contained money, the property of Her Majesty's Postmaster-General.

MESSRS. CLERK and METCALFE conducted the Prosecution.

HENRY BINGHAM . I am a police-constable attached to the post-office—on the morning of 3d September, I went to the Northern District office before the letter carriers came, and placed myself in a position where I could command a view of the water-closets—about half-past 6 o'clock I saw the prisoner come into one of them—he bolted the door as soon as he got in, and put a piece of paper against the ventilator of the closet through which I was looking—I pushed that a little aside, and still had a view of him—he then took two letters from his pocket, tore them open and took some coin from each of them—I could not see what sort of coin it was—he tore the letters up and put them down the pan of the closet—he then took a third letter from his pocket, tore that open and took something from it—he had not, during this timer unfastened his things at all—I prevented the water from flowing into the closet, and then went round to the door of the closet—whilst waiting at the door, I heard two pieces of coin drop on the stone floor of the closet in quick succession—about four minutes after I got to the door be came out—I took him to the comptroller's room, leaving Crocker, a police constable, in charge of the closet—at the inspector's room I saw Mr. Clare, the inspector of letter-carriers, and told him, in the prisoner's presence, that I had seen the prisoner tear up some letters and put them down the pan—the prisoner said he had not done so—I then searched him and took four sixpences, loose, from his waistcoat pocket, and also a purse from his trousers' pocket, containing 16s., and a key—he gave me his address, and said the key would unlock his box in that room—he lived with his mother—I went there and found in a large box a smaller box, and also some keys, which he told me would unlock the little box—in that I found twenty-eight sovereigns and 4s. 6d., in postage stamps

—the stamps were in two pieces—they have never been put on letter—I afterwards went with Blackburn, the plumber, to the closet, and saw him take some fragments of letters and envelopes from the pan of the closet, which he handed to me—I pasted them together—I found six envelopes—one addressed, "Mr. G. Cunnington, 16, Metcalfe-place, Pentonville-road, near the Angel, Islington"—that bears the Margate post-mark of 2d September, and the Northern District mark of 3d September—the second is, "Elizabeth Rice, 9, Highbury-terrace, Islington, London"—it bean the Leatherhead post-mark of September 2d, and the Northern District post-mark of 3d September—there is a third addressed, "Mr. J. Hislop, 23, River-street, York-road, London"—that bears the Wellington post-mark of 2d September, but the London post-mark is not plain enough to see—there is a fourth letter addressed, "Mrs. Graham, 11, Church-street, Upper-street, Islington, London," bearing the Thetford post-mark of 2d September, and the Northern District office mark of 3d September—there is a fifth addressed, "Mrs. Preston, Lower-road, Islington, London," bearing the Torpoint, Devonport, poet-mark, of 2d September, and the Northern District of 3d September—the sixth is, "Mrs. Henry Wallace, 9, Royal Henry-walk, Pitfield-street, Hoxton, London," bearing the Guernsey post-mark of 2d september, and the Northern District of 3d September—I was at those waterclosets, that morning, before any letter-carriers arrived at the office—one person came into the closet about 6 o'clock—I watched him—he did not tear up anything or put anything in the pan—no other person besides him came.

Cross-examined by MR. COOPER. Q. Are these public closets? A. Yes—I had been there also the morning before, and saw the prisoner come—I was there all the time till the letter-carriers left to go out for the general delivery—they are open all day for people engaged in the office, who happen to have to go there—the ventilator is at the back of the closet—the man stood sideways against the door—he did not come to the seat—the ventilator is tin, with small holes in it—there is a row of closets—the pans of four or five closets do not all verge to one pipe—each has a separate pipe and separate water—I got these papers from the pan of the closet—I only stopped the water from the pan of the closet which he was in—I could prevent anything in the bottom of the pan flowing out of it.

MR. CLERK. Q. How does the water act in the pan? A. When they leave the closet the water would flow, when they rise from the pan—they are self acting waterclosets—if a person had been there at the end of the previous day and had gone out, all the contents of the pan would have gone out.

COURT. Q. This morning had the water flowed when the previous person had been in? A. Yes, and the water would carry the contents of the pan down into a pan below.

GIDEON CROCKER . I am a constable attached to the Post-office—at Bingham's suggestion I took charge of the closet when he was gone, and remained there till the plumber came.

WILLIAM BLACKBURN . I am a plumber attached to the Poet-office—I examined the pan of the water-closet which Bingham pointed out, and took from it the pieces of letters which I handed to him.

WILLIS CLARE . I am one of the inspectors of letter-carriers at the General Post-office—the prisoner has been employed in the Post-office about four years—he was a letter-carrier and sorter at the Northern District Office—his wages were 23s. a week—I went to the Northern Office

on the morning of 3d September—the prisoner was there on duty dividing the letters—that was about half-past 6 o'clock—I saw him leave his seat with three or four letters in his hand, and return without them—he shortly afterwards got up again and went towards the door leading to the letter-carriers' water-closets, to the water-closet of which Bingham has spoken—about five minutes, perhaps, after I had seen him leave his seat Bingham brought him to me in the comptroller's office, and told me what he had seen—I asked the prisoner if that was so, and he said, "No"—I asked him if he had any letters in his pocket—he said, "No; at least I think not"—I told the police-officer to search him, and he produced from his pocket four sixpences, and a parse, and other things—I gave him into custody—all those letters, which have been produced might have come to the prisoner's hand in the course of sorting—they were not for his district—I asked him if he had been sorting that morning—he said, "Yes"—I asked him what sort of letters, and he said, "All sorts of letters."

Cross-examined. Q. Had he been sorting all kinds of letters that morning? A. Yes—these letters, whether they contained money or not, would be sorted with the others unless they had been registered—there are perhaps about thirty or forty sorters—I have seen men leave their place with letters before, taking them out for missorted letters, some that had got into the wrong district, and would carry them to another part—when he took the letters he did not know that I might have seen him, I was in a private room—the other men sorting were about their own business.

KATE CUNNINGTON . I am a servant in the family of Mr. Reeves, Hawley-street, Margate—I wrote the two letters shown to me by the officer, and enclosed two sixpences in one of them—I folded that and the other letter, put them in the envelope produced, "and posted it on the morning of 2d September—this is it, addressed, "Mr. G. Cunnington, 6, Metcalfe-place, Pentonville-road."

Cross-examined. Q. Are you sure it was 2d September? A. Yes.

SARAH ALLCOCK . I am the wife of Thomas Allcock, of Little Bookham, near Leatherhead—on 2d September I wrote and posted this letter produced, addressed to "Elizabeth Rice, 9, Highbury-terrace"—I put a sixpence in a piece of lace, sewed it round, and then sewed that to the letter.

MARY SOPHIA HISLOP . I am the wife of John Hislop, living at Wellington in Somersetshire—on 2d September I wrote this letter, pet it in this envelope, and gave it Juliana Twose to post—I put a sixpence in it—the sixpence was folded in an envelope which I put in the letter.

JULIANA TWOSE . I posted the letter on 2d September, at Wellington, that Mrs. Hislop gave me.


MR. METCALFE stated that the prisoner had been seen to tear up letters in the water-closet on the two previous-mornings.

Four Years' Penal Servitude.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-777
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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777. EDMUND MARSTON (30) , Feloniously forging and uttering an acceptance to a bill of exchange for 432l. 6s., with intent to defraud; to which he


He received a good character.

Three Years' Penal Servitude.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-778
VerdictNot Guilty > directed; Guilty > unknown

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778. MATTHEW CHARTERS (22), HARRIETT HARVEY (22), and SUSAN WELSH (21) , Stealing 7 mantles, 1 gown, 1 barrow, and a basket, the property of Amelia Ash.

MR. BEST conducted the Prosecution.

JOHN LEWIS . I am a porter to Mrs. Bell, of Lansdowne House, Lower-road, Islington—on 29th August I received from Mrs. Ash some mantles in a basket—I placed the basket on a truck, with which I went to Foster-lane—that was about 2 o'clock in the day, I should think—my son, William Lewis, was with me—when I got to Foster-lane I left the truck in change of my boy, and went away for a short time—when I came back the truck, basket, and mantles were gone.

WILLIAM LEWIS . I am the son of the last witness—I was with him on 29th August last, at Foster-lane—he had with him a truck, some mantles, and a basket—he left me with them—while I was standing by the side of the truck the male prisoner came out of the warehouse, and said, "Where is your father?"—I said, "I don't know"—he looked up and down the lane and then said again, "Where is your father?"—I said, "He is gone down there," pointing to Cheapside—he went to the corner of Cheapside and looked down, and then he said, "You go down that white court and see your father, tell him to be quick because he has got to bring a bundle from the warehouse"—I went, and met my father about half way—when I came back the truck, and mantles, and the prisoner were all gone—the next time I saw the prisoner was at the station-house—there were a good many people with him—I picked him out of the number.

Charters. When he was asked if he knew me, he said he thought it was me.

COURT. Q. Were you asked whether you knew him, or were you asked to pick out who the man was? A. The gentleman said, "Do you knot anyone out of this here lot?" and then I picked out the prisoner—I said I thought it was he—I do not know that anyone then said to me, "Oh, you know he's the man"—the prisoner said, "You think it's me"—I did not say anything—I am quite sure he is the person.

AMELIA ASH . I am a widow, and reside at 3, Newington-road, Balls Pond—I am forewoman to Mrs. Bell—I received some materials to make up into mantles for her, and with them I received a pattern mantle to make them from—I made up six, seven with the pattern, and gave them to the witness, Lewis, to take—this mantle (produced) is our own make—this second one is the French pattern that I received to make them from—the value of the pattern mantle is 5l. 10s. our imitation of it 2l. 3s.

Cross-examined by MR. COOPER (for Harvey). Q. I suppose there are articles made of inferior quality, which would sell for less, looking about pretty nearly as well? A. Well, they make them up at all prices—one of 1l. might look as well as this.

JESSE WOODGATE . I am assistant to Mr. John Savage, 73, Whitechapel-road, pawnbroker—I received this French pattern cloak on 30th August—Harvey pledged it and a dress together, at our shop in the name of Charters, for a guinea at first, a few days afterwards she had an advance of 10s.—I have not the date of that—there was a further advance of 4s. after that—two females came to look at them.

Cross-examined. Q. They were sent, I suppose, to look at them? A. I do not know—they had the duplicate.

JOHN WILLIAM PRICE . I am a pawnbroker in Whitechapel-road—I produce this cloak, the common one—it was pledged at my shop on 2d September for 10s. in the name of Price—I do not know the person.

Cross-examined. Q. I believe it is not an uncommon thing for persons to give a different name to their real one when they come to pledge articles? A. I believe not.

EDWARD HANCOCK (City-policeman, 477). I apprehended Harvey on 13th September, at 1, Whiting-street, Waterloo-road—I told her I had come respecting those mantles she was charged with stealing—she said she knew nothing about them—I asked her if she knew a pawnbroker, named Savage, in the Whitechapel-road—she said she did—I said I believed she had pledged one of the mantles there—she seemed very much confused, and after a minute or two, she said she had, only one—she afterwards said that she had been to Mr. Savage's shop, on the previous evening, and seen Mr. Savage, and given him 16s. to redeem the cloak, and that Mr. Savage kept the 16s. and told her to go about her business.

Cross-examined. Q. I suppose you had spoken to Savage about it? A. I had seen Savage the previous day.

ALFRED GREEN (City-policeman). I apprehended Welsh on this charge, at 14, Princes-street, Whitechapel, on 14th September—there were two other females there—I told a female named Price, that I had seen a mantle, pledged at the shop of Mr. Price in Whitechapel-road, in the name of Price, and that I suspected she had pledged it—she denied it—I told her she must put on her things and go with me—upon that Welsb, who was in the room, said, "I shall not let an innocent person suffer; I am the guilty party, if you take anybody, take me"—I then asked her if she wished to give me any amount as to how she became possessed of this mantle—she said, "Well, I bought it of a man in Petticoat-lane"—I asked her if she knew where he lived—she said, "No; I met him in the Lane with the things on his arm"—I then took her to the station-house—I arrested Charters on the previous Monday, the 9th, in Cannon-street, from information I received—I told him a description had been left at the station-house of a person who had stolen a barrow and some mantles, and as he answered that description I should take him into custody—he said, "Well, Mr. Green, you are wrong this time; if you get me to rights I should not mind going"—upon that I took him to the station-house, mixed him with about ten or a dozen other persons, and sent for the witness, Lewis—he was locked up that night, and the following morning the two female prisoners came with food for him—they came into the office together and quarrelled as to which had the greatest right to him—on the way to the Mansion House they followed him, and he begged of them to be quiet.

MARY ANDREWS . I am the wife of Edward Andrews, of 13, Prince's-street, Whitechapel—I know all the prisoners—they have lodged at my house—Susan Welsh lodged there first—Charters came and took the room with her—they had lived together for about four weeks—Susan Welsh then went to a situation and left Charters alone—he was a fortnight in the room by himself, and then he said, "Would you allow me to bring my wife home; she is with my mother?" I said, "Well, if it is your wife, you can bring her home"—Harvey came and I think she was in the house about seven weeks.

Charters' Defence. I am innocent of stealing.

THE COURT considered that there was no case against


CHARTERS.— GUILTY .—He was further charged with having been before convicted.

WILLIAM HOBNER (Policeman, N 358). I produce a certificate (Read:—"Clerkenwell Sessions, March, 1857. Thomas Charters, convicted of stealing from a dwelling-house.—Confined Eighteen Months.")—Charters is the person mentioned in that certificate.

Charters. Q. Did you have me in custody? A. No; I know the man who had you—he has left the force some time.

COURT. Q. Have you any doubt of his being the person? A. Not the least.

NOT GUILTY.**— Confined Eighteen Months on the conviction.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-779
VerdictNot Guilty > no evidence

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779. HARRIET HARVEY was again indicted for stealing 120 yards of moire antique, the property of James Falshaw Pawson.

MR. BEST offered no evidence.


23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-780
VerdictNot Guilty > no evidence

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780. JAMES HENRY WELSBY was indicted for indecently assaulting Henry Cooper.

MR. RIBTON, for the Prosecution, offered no evidence.


23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-781
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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781. EDWARD ERNEST HEMMING (26) , Forging and uttering a transfer of certain mining shares, with intent to defraud. Other Counts, varying the manner of laying the charge.

MR. F. H. LEWIS conducted the Prosecution.

ELIZABETH COLVILLE . I reside at Norfolk-square, Brighton—I have known the prisoner about three years—in 1859 and 1860, he was acting as clerk to a Mr. Clements an appraiser at Brighton, who is my nephew—I gave the prisoner authority to purchase some shares for me in mining companies—about the year 1859 a cheque was given to Mr. Clements in payment for them, and he gave the amount of the cheque to the prisoner—he purchased for me five shares in the Tincroft Mines, live in the Tanner's, five in the Hingston, five in the Wheal Harriet, five in Kelly Bray, and five in Pendeen—this is the cheque (produced) which I gave for the payment of those shares to Mr. Clements—I received the transfer of those shares from the prisoner himself—I still have those shares—this signature to the transfer of the five shares in Kelly Bray is not my writing, or signed by my authority—I should say it was the prisoner's writing—this signature to the transfer of five shares in the Hingston Down Mine is not my signature, or written by my authority—my belief is that it is the prisoner's—this signature, Elisabeth Colville, to the transfer of Pendeen Consols Mine is not my writing, or written by my authority—my belief is that it is the prisoner's writing—this one to the transfer in Wheal Harriet, is not my signature, or written by my authority—my belief is that it is the prisoner's writing.

Prisoner. Q. How do you know Mr. Clements gave me the money? A. You gave me an account—I have not got it—I do not know what has become of it—you gave me an account at the time, of the expenses—you got the shares in my name—I knew nothing of mining shares—I had no receipt for the money I paid, only your word—I once lent 40l. or 50l. to some advertising people, who were offering 5l. bonuses, through you—I do not know whether you came up to London to inquire about that—you were in partnership with Mr. Clements from September, 1859, but you were his clerk at the time the shares were purchased—I came to London with Mr. Clements in May or June, 1860, and called at No. 3, Old Broad-street, between 8 and 9 o'clock, one morning—I did not remove all the furniture from your office—I had nothing to do with that—I did not give you any authority to sign those transfers—every paper taken from your office was returned to you—they were sent to No. 3, and given to a man there—I did not give them—I was present when they were given—I do not know that you received them—there were other things sent back besides papers, that were in the drawers—I had nothing to do with it—they were given to a man at the Bricklayer's Arms to take to your office.

GEORGE HENRY CLEMENTS . I am an estate agent, of 43A, Western-road,

Brighton—in 1859, the prisoner was acting as my clerk—I recollect the last witness purchasing some shares in the companies which the has mentioned—I paid the prisoner for them—I cashed this cheque (produced), and then paid him with the product—there is no mistake about the signature, Elisabeth Colville, to these four transfers—they are the prisoner's writing—I can only speak as to the signatures.

Prisoner. Q. Did not you give me a cheque for those shares? A. No; I paid you in money—I swear that—the shares were not a part of our stock in trade—the shares were not put into Mrs. Colville's name for a purpose.

Q. Were we not going into partnership at that time, in September, 1859? A. If you like to call it partnership—it was an arrangement—I allowed you to we my name and you construed that into a partnership if you liked—when it suited you to be my partner you were, and when you got into difficulties you were my clerk.

COURT. Q. At the time that these shares were bought, was he your clerk? Q. Yes.

Prisoner Q. Were not the offices taken in our joint names? A. Yes; and we had cards with Clements and Hemming on them—you did not give me a receipt for the money I paid you—you were my clerk—is it usual for a master to require a receipt from his clerk—you told me of whom you had purchased the shares, but I forget—I came and took the furniture, books, and papers out of your office in London, and took everything to the Bricklayer's Arms—finding my affairs getting very bad, and having lost 600l. within four months, I came up to London and closed the office, under the advice of Mr. Lewis, sen.—the house agency business at Brighton belongs to me—it belonged to Mr. Cosstick at that time—we did not have a banking account—you had not got a sixpence—you might have brought the shares with you once to receive the dividend—I remember, after very great difficulty, you sent me down one, and the other I was compelled to go to London for—I afterwards brought them back to London—I did not receive the dividends, not being a mining broker—I went by what you told me—that they had to lie three or four days in the office to receive the signature of the secretary of the Mine, and so I gave them to you.

WILLIAM HENRY RICHARDS . I am managing clerk to the Wheal Harriet Mining Company, which is carried on under the cost book principle—in February last, there was a shareholder in that company, named Elisabeth Colville—she had five shares I believe—I remember a transfer being brought to the office by Mr. Gomperz, about February—it was duly registered in his name—you can purchase the blank transfers—I am also connected with the Kelly Bray Mine—Mrs. Colville had twenty shares in that mine—the prisoner came to me about them, to the office, about the middle of April in this year, and asked me how many dividends Mrs. Elisabeth Colville had received in Kelly Bray Mine—I think I told him "Three"—his reply was, "I thought so, she has written to me, and says she has only received two"—he then tended this transfer (produced), and asked me if that was the only share she had remaining—I referred to the share ledger and told him she had five—in the course of a few days another transfer was tended by the prisoner—this is it (produced).

Prisoner. Q. Are there meetings held in these mines every two or three months? A. Every two months in the Kelly Bray—notices are sent out previously, and after the meetings there is a statement of accounts sent to each shareholder—I did not know you before this.

COURT. Q. To a person you do not know, do you give information of the shares? A. I knew him as the broker of Mrs. Colville—that is all.

THOMAS BRIGNALL LAWS . I am secretary to the Hingston Down Mining Company, Threadneedle-street, which is conducted on the cost book principle—a request of a transfer of five shares, signed by Mrs. Colville, in that mine, was left for registration, and duly registered—I do not know who by—Mrs. Colville was at that time a shareholder in that mine.

Prisoner. Q. Are there notices sent out after the meeting every two or three months? A. Every two months—that occurred about nine months ago—a printed form of accounts is sent to each shareholder.

COURT. Q. Do you transfer the shares directly for anyone who bring a transfer, without inquiry? A. Yes; we have the signature of the original party, but we do not compare them—it is generally done through a broker.

THOMAS CURTIS . I was in the employment of the directors of the Pendeen Consols Mine—I see here a transfer of five shares in that mine—I produced it at the police-court—it was left for registration, and duly registered—I cannot remember by whom it was left—Mrs. Colville was at that time a shareholder in the mine.

Prisoner. Q. When was it left for registration? A. On 9th March.

EMMANUEL GOMPERZ . I am a mining share-broker, carrying on business at 3, Crown-chambers, Threadneedle-street—I have known the prisoner as a mining share-broker for five years—he came to me in February last, in reference to some shares in the Wheal Harriet Mine—he brought me this transfer—I had bought the shares of him before that—I gave him a cheque for some shares—this cheque (produced) is dated 8th January—the date of the transfer is the 15th, I believe (referring to a book)—I paid him for the Wheal Harriet, 9l.—this is the cheque I gave him—I paid the money upon his producing the transfer—if I had not believed the signature to the transfer to have been genuine, I should not have paid the money—he afterwards produced a transfer of five shares in the Hingston Down Company—they are entered here on 23d February, 1l. 10s.—I took the shares to be registered at the offices of the different companies—I paid the prisoner the 1l. 10s. upon the production of that transfer—I should not have paid it if I had not believed it to be a valid signature.

Prisoner. Q. Have you not always found me straightforward and honourable in all those transactions? A. Yes—I have known you abort five years.

THOMAS TOMLINSON GILL . I am a cashier in the London and Westminster Bank—this cheque for 9l. has been paid—it is drawn by Mr. Gomperz, and is in his writing.

GEORGE FREDERICK COSSTICK . I reside at 42, Western-road, Brighton—the signature to these transfers, purporting to be shares in the Hingston Down Mine, is not in my writing, or written by my authority—the prisoner was aware that I had shares in that company—I know his writing, and believe the signature to be his. prisoner. Q. You had the shares from me, I believe, in the first place? A. I had them from Mr. Clements, and paid him for them—I had the transfer for them—I do not know whether you put the shares in with my name—Mr. Clements was the only person I knew in the transaction—he was not in London at the time expected, and the shares were considered forfeited—I might have told you that they were forfeited—you proffered your services, as you knew Mr. Laws—the business at Brighton does not belong to me—I told you that Mr. Clements held it for me, as I owed him some money, and he told me you were going on at such a rate, and ruining the business.

COURT. Q. When was it you bought these shares? A. In 1859—they were afterwards renewed.

JOSEPH HUGGETT . I am a detective officer—I received instructions in August last, from the directors of these Mining companies, to apprehend the prisoner—I did so a fortnight afterwards—I was looking for him during all that period—I took him in the end at his house in Dalston—I had been there several times in the fortnight, and had not been able to find him—I found him in a very small hole, down in a coal cellar, in a place about a yard square—I told him I was an officer, and should apprehend him for uttering a forged transfer of shares, and forging the signatures of Mrs. Colville and of Mr. Cosstick—he said, "It is clear that I uttered the transfer, but I believed that I had full authority to use Mrs. Colville's name"—he also said, "Mr. Clements was my partner, and a portion of my money went to purchase the original shares"—he was taken to the police-station, and charged—he did not say a word about Cosstick.

Prisoner. Q. I was about to have a wash at the time you called; I had my coat off, had I not? A. Yes; but there was no facility for washing in that hole.

The prisoner, in his defence, stated that he placed the shares temporarily do Mrs. Colville's name, at he did not want it known on the market what shares he held, and that he always had full power over the shares, which were bought partly with hit money; that he was afterwards advised to sell them, and wrote Elizabeth Colville and George F. Cosstick, with hit own name, to the transfer, and then sold them to Mr. Gomperz; that they wanted to get him convicted, that they might have the business at Brighton all to themselves, at the busy season coming on.

COURT to GEORGE CLEMENTS. Q. Do you know James Collins? I see one of the signatures purports to be witnessed by him. A. No; he is not a clerk of mine—I do not know a person named Melville.

GUILTY on ninth and tenth counts (for obtaining 9l. by false pretences).— Confined Twelve Months.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-782
VerdictNot Guilty > directed; Guilty > unknown

Related Material

782. JOHN WILLIAMS (18), and JOHN JACKSON (24) , Stealing 36 yards of cloth, value 2l. 18s. 2d., the property of Thomas Green and another.

MR. METCALFE conducted the Prosecution.

JAMES MYDDLETON FRITH . I am a porter in the employment of Messrs. Green, auctioneers, of Farringdon-street, and live at 12, Dorrington-street, Leather-lane—about 1 o'clock, on 23d August, I was at their auction rooms, and the prisoner Williams came there—he brought a small dressing-case, four forks, and a box something like a domino-box, to be sold—he said he brought them from Jackson—he said he was to stop till Jackson came in, which he did in about half an hour—I gave Jackson a receipt for the goods which had been brought, and both of them went out—in about an hour they both came back again, and Jackson asked me for a receipt for an enema, a surgical instrument case, which he had brought on the previous Saturday—I offered to make a minute on the paper I had given him that day for the dressing-case—I was having my dinner at the time—he said, "Finish your dinner first"—after I had done dinner I said, "Come give us your paper, and I will make that right for you"—he then said he had lost the receipt I had given him on the previous Saturday for the enema, and also the one I had given him that day—I then went into the counting-house to make him a fresh receipt—Jackson came in with me and sat next to the door; between me and the door—I had left Williams in the warehouse, and

I opened a little window in the office and saw him carrying this roll cloth (produced)—it had been placed at the extreme end of the warehouse—he was carrying it towards the outside door—directly he saw me looking at him he dropped it behind a board in the room—I went out. stopped him, and called for the assistance of a policeman—I asked a customer there, packing up some goods, to go and fetch a policeman, and Jackson came up and said, "Here, I will fetch a policeman," and off be went—when I sent a second time, a policeman came directly and took Williams—I waited expecting Jackson, and when I found he did not come. I sent again—the prisoners were in conversation together in the warehouse—Jackson was sitting next to the door in the office—that did not at all obstruct my view of the warehouse.

COURT. Q. Was the cloth lying on the ground before he dropped it? A. No; on a board right away, eight or nine yards from where he was.

Q. Have you said at any time that you saw him take a book? A. the book caused my suspicions in the first instance—I saw him knocking things about.

Jackson. Q. Had you been complaining of illness previous to this day? A. Yes I had, the previous day—owing to that the place was in some confusion—I do not recollect your saying to me, "While you are writing the receipt out, I will go and get a glass of ale"—I cannot say that you left me on a chair, sitting in the counting house, on the first occasion when you went out; I do not recollect it—very probably you might have left me sitting in a chair—you left Williams sitting down on a box by the door—when you came back we were having our dinners, and you said to me, "Let me have the receipt," and I went into the counting-house to give you the receipt for the goods which Williams had brought that morning—I cannot recollect whether I asked you to sit down when we went into the counting-house—when I went out of the counting-house I left you there—I did not, when I went out into the room, say, "Mr. Jackson, go and fetch a policeman—I asked Mr. Lloyd, but you said you would fetch a policeman—you did not then go towards where Williams was standing, and say to roe, "What has he done,"—I said, "I saw him pick the cloth up, and I shall lock him up"—you then said you would go out for a policeman, and ran out—Mr. Lloyd was there; you knocked him down as you went out—he was near the door he was taking out some tools from under the counter—he was nearer the door than I was—he was stooping down when you knocked against him—when I went to the station I locked the door after me—you have within the last two months placed a great many things in Mr. Green's rooms for sale—Williams was not sitting on the sofa when you and I went into the counting-house—I left him sitting on a cask—Williams did not say when I went up to him, "I saw the cloth lying on the floor, and I picked it up and placed it there"—the table where I was having my dinner was about two and a half yards from the wall—a person sitting on the sofa would not be opposite to the wall—I know there is a couch there—I left him sitting eight or nine yards from where the cloth was—I cannot recollect seeing the couch—I did not see Williams pick the cloth up—I saw him carrying it—he never had the chance to get away—he might have got out before I got to him—he saw me looking at him, and dropped the cloth over the wall, and then stopped, and when I taxed him with it, he said, "I have done nothing."

MR. METCALFE. Q. Before he ran out in the way you describe, did he ask what the man had done? A. I said, "He has been stealing a piece of cloth," or something, and he said, "I will fetch you a policeman,"—he made

some remark about what I stopped him for, and I told him he was taking a piece of cloth away, and then it was he ran out for a policeman.

WILLIAM JAMES BAILEY (City-policeman, 89). I took William at Messrs, Green's premises—he heard the charge made by the lost witness—he said he had not touched any cloth, and knew nothing about it—I took him to the station, searched him, and found nothing—he gave me hit address, No. 4, King's head-court, Shoreditch—he was not known at that address—I could not find anything about him—I apprehended Jackson that evening in Old-street road, St Luke's—he was walking along—I told him he was charged with another person with stealing a piece of cloth—he said he was employed by a man to carry some goods to Messrs. Green's rooms that day—I said, "You went out to fetch a policeman, and did not return"—he said that he could not find a policeman—I took him to the station, searched him, and found on him seventeen keys on a steel ring—he gave his address 11, Leonard-street, Shoreditch—I went there, and found that he had lived there and left on that day.

Jackson. Q. I believe you found that those keys fitted some boxes? A. One key—I found only one key on this bunch to fit a box that was there—I tried several.

MR. METCALFE. Q. Where did you find that box? A. At 17, Murray-street, Hoxton—that was not the address the prisoner gave me—this is the key leading into the door in Murray-street (The prisoners' statements before the Magistrate were here read at follow: Williams' statement, "Guilty, sir." Jackson's'statement, "No, sir."

The COURT considered that there was not sufficient evidence against Jackson.


WILLIAMS— GUILTY .— Confined Six months.

OLD COURT.—Thursday, September 26th, 1861.


Before Mr. Justice Byles.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-783
VerdictGuilty > unknown

Related Material

783. WILLIAM COGAN (30), was indicted for the wilful murder of Mary Ann Stokes Cogan; he was also charged upon the Coroner's inquisition with the like murder.

MESSRS. CLERK and ORRIDGE conducted the Prosecution,

SARAH HARWOOD . I am the sister of the deceased, the wife of the prisoner—they had been married between ten and eleven years—there is one child living, a boy; they had had more—the boy is nine years old—he lived at home with them, but not when the deed was committed—I had not been with my sister and the prisoner to a funeral on 2d August—I did not know from the prisoner that they had been to a funeral on that day—my sister was a right-handed person.

Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. Did you see much of them after their marriage? A. Not a great deal—the prisoner appeared to be very fond of her, in my presence—the deceased was occasionally given to drink, the same as her husband—I believe when drunk she was quarrelsome with her husband—I never saw them in their quarrels—they separated about nine months ago, and the prisoner then allowed her 10s. a week—after being apart for a short time they lived together again, apparently comfortable and happy when sober—I did not know of her ever having made an assault upon him,

until he met me one day and said she had stabbed him—I do not know of any assault that she ever made upon him.

MR. CLERK. Q. Had you ever known of any assault committed upon her by the prisoner prior to this? A. Yes.

COURT. Q. You say you heard something from the prisoner about what his wife did to him, what was it? A. That she had stabbed him in the arm—I believe that is just upon a twelvemonth ago—my sister was thirty years of age—the prisoner did not tell me whether he had made any complaint at the police office about the stab in his arm.

ELIZABETH HERBERT . I am the wife of James Herbert, and live in King-street, Drury-lane—I knew the prisoner and his wife—on Thursday night 2d August I was at the Bell-public-house in Newton-street, High Holborn—I had been there during the day charring, and was stopping there late with the barmaid, on account of the master being out—the prisoner lived with his wife next door but one to the Bell; I believe they call it No. 3—between 9 and 10 that night the deceased came into the Bell with a Mrs. Edwards—I could see that she had been drinking when she came in; she was a little the worse for drink—she called for half a pint of gin—she drank it with some other persons who were there—I had a glass of it myself—she asked me to drink, and I did so with her—she remained there till the house was closed; that was about 1 o'clock—she had nothing more to drink besides the gin—when she went out she was a little way gone the worse for drink—she was gone rather more in drink than I had been used to see her—about ten minutes or a quarter of an hour after she bad gone out I went to the door—I was going home with my husband; he had come for me, to see why I was so late—my attention was drawn to a disturbance in the street—when I got into Newton-street, I saw the prisoner—I and my husband were going down the street—the prisoner came up to his own street door, and lifted the door up like to get in—he forced it open—when he pushed the door open Mrs. Cogan came up from outside the passage with her hands up, and came out before him, and they had a bit of a struggle—she went up to him with her hands so, up into his face—I could not see whether her hands struck his face—I did not see his face struck—he then caught hold of her by her hair, and there was a struggle between them at the street door—I said to Mrs. Cogan "Oh, don't; do run away, Mary Ann, until his passion is over"—the prisoner told me to mind my own business—he had not hold of her hair many minutes; he let go of her—she went underneath Mr. Bloomfield's gateway, that is about a couple of yards from the house—my husband went a little way up the street with the prisoner and left him there with a policeman, at the corner of Holborn, and I saw no more of him afterwards till now—I believe he had been drinking in the day—I think he had got up out of a drinking sleep, from being tipsy during the day, going to his godfather's funeral, but I did not see him when he came home, therefore I cannot say.

Cross-examined. Q. I suppose you had been drinking a little that night? A. No; I had not—I had been at work all day at the public-house—I had a glass of gin with Mrs. Cogan—I remained there till the house was nearly shut—it was shut about I—I was in the bar—I had been upstairs making the beds and emptying the little things upstairs—it was just before 11 that I took the glass of gin—Mrs. Edwards left about 11—I drank nothing from 11 to I but my drop of supper beer that I had there, half a pint—I had nothing else—my husband came in just as I was coming home—there was no policeman present at the time I saw what occurred at the prisoner's door—I saw the prisoner stopping talking to a policeman at the corner of

Newton-street—that was a good distance from his own door, I dare say seven or eight yards; it might be, the policeman was standing at the corner—he did not see the fight at the door—I do not know whether he was looking—if he had looked towards there he could hare seen—I had known Mrs. Cogan a good bit, only as a neighbour—she had evidently been drinking a good deal that night, from the manner of her—I believe she had been drinking a good deal—I had seen her tipsy before—she was rather quarrelsome when drunk—I never saw her use any violence—she only drank out of the half-pint of gin at the Bell—I knew she had been to a funeral that day—I do not know whether she drank there; I was not with her—I have heard of her having assaulted the prisoner on a previous occasion, but I do not know it—I never heard her threaten him—it was outside of the door that he had hold of her by the hair of her head.

SARAH EDWARDS . I live at 4, Newton-street, Holborn, next door to where the prisoner and his wife lived—I knew them very well—I had not been to the funeral on the Thursday—they went to the funeral; I know from the prisoner that they went—I saw them when they came home from the funeral—it was about half-past eight at night—they had both had a little—they were friendly towards one another at that time by what I saw of them—I did not remain with them—about 10 o'clock at night I went with Mrs. Cogan to the Bell tavern, and had some gin there with her—at that time she was the worse for liquor—I remained there till 11 o'clock, and then left her there—I saw nothing more of her or the prisoner.

JAMES HERBERT . I am the husband of Elizabeth Herbert, of 29, King-street, Drury-lane—I know the prisoner—I saw him on Friday, 2d August, as near as I can guess about 2 o'clock in the morning—my wife was at the Bell that night, and I went to fetch her—I saw the prisoner in the street about 2 o'clock, and went with him to his own door, from Cross-lane to the bottom of Newton-street—it was about half past 1 or a quarter to 2 when I left the Bell—when I met the prisoner he asked me to go and have something to drink—that was in Gross-lane—he said nothing about his wife—I went with him to have something to drink, but the house was shut up—I then went with him to his door—the door was shut up; so he asked me to go somewhere else—I said, "You have had quite enough; I do not want any more; I should advise you to go upstairs"—with that he shoved his shoulder against the door, and opened it—he burst it open with his shoulder—I then saw his wife in the passage—they had a scuffle together in the passage of the house—my wife was with me—we tried to part them; and got them outside the passage—they were having a few words together, calling one another different names, and she made two hits at him—he said, "You will see that I will do when I get upstairs"—he said this to his wife—with that he went upstairs—she remained at the door talking to me and my wife—I remained there till the prisoner came down—I advised her to go under Mr. Bloomfield's gateway, for fear of their having some more words—she went under the gateway—she had gone there while he was coming downstairs—he was out almost before she had came under the gateway—he came outside the passage, and walked up Newton-street, and stopped at the top of Newton-street talking to the policeman—I went and told Mrs. Cogan where to was, and she came from underneath the gateway—I said, "If I was you, I would not get in his way any more to-night"—I told her to go to a lodging-house almost right opposite where she lives, and try to get a lodging there—I left her crossing the road going towards this lodging-house; and I bade her good-night, and she bade me good-night; and that was the last I saw of her or him that night.

Cross-examined. Q. Was your wife close to you at the door when this struggling happened? A. Yes—I saw everything that occurred—I had not been drinking that night—I and my wife had a share of two pints of beer—that was all I had.

COURT. Q. Were you examined before the coroner? A. Yes—this is my handwriting to this deposition (This being read, stated:—"I did not hear him make use of any threats towards her").

MARGABET ANN PROSER . I live with my husband John Prosser, it 4, Newton-street—there is one entrance to the houses 3 and 4; one passage from the street common to both houses—our rooms were in No. 4; the prisoner and his wife lived in No. 3, in the first-floor front—on Thursday, 1st August, they went to a funeral—about 11 o'clock that night, I saw Mrs. Cogan outside the Bell public-house—she was the worse for drink at that time—between 1 and 2 on the Friday morning I was in bed—I heard some scuffling going on in the passage—I heard the prisoner's voice—I know his voice—I heard him call his wife a b----wh----and she called him a b----wh----'s bastard—there was some more language of the same kind from one to the other—after that I heard some footsteps of a man go up and downstairs two or three times—I believe he went away from the house, but I do not know—some time after that, I heard the deceased go up—I did not hear her voice, I heard her footsteps—that was about twenty minutes after I had heard his—that was all I heard.

Cross-examined. Q. I suppose you were between sleeping and waking? A. No; I was awake—I heard the footsteps of a man go up and down two or three times—there are plenty of lodgers in the house—it was in the passage that I heard the woman's voice, and I heard the footsteps of a woman—the reason I thought it was the deceased was by the chink of her dress—there were other female lodgers in the house—plenty of people were lodging there—I fell asleep afterwards—not immediately afterward—I don't know how soon afterwards.

COURT. Q. Do you remember whether the last you heard of the man's footsteps was going up or coming down? A. I cannot be positive.

GEORGE WAREHAM (Policeman, F 144). I was on duty on my beat on the night between Thursday and Friday, 1st and 2d August—Newton-street and Little Queen-street, Holborn, are on my beat—Newton-street is on the left-hand side of Holborn as you go up towards St. Giles'-church, the same side as Seven Dials—it is about 300 yards nearer St. Giles' than Little Queen-street—I knew the prisoner by sight before this day—I did not know his wife by sight—on Thursday night or Friday morning, about half-past 1, I saw the prisoner in Newton-street, standing at the door of Nos. 3, and 4, his own door—the witness James Herbert and his wife were standing at the door, and the deceased—there was a scuffle going on between the man and woman—they were having a few words—I saw the deceased push or strike the prisoner in the breast—I did not see her do it more than once—I could not hear the words that passed between them, I was six or seven yards off—after the deceased bad struck or pushed at him, he went into the house—I heard him go upstairs—the deceased ran across the street into a house opposite—she remained there about a minute and a half—the prisoner was in his house at that time—there is a gateway in Newton-street—the deceased came back from the house opposite, and stood opposite her own door for about a minute, and when she heard him coming down stairs again she ran to the gateway—I heard the prisoner come down stairs, and saw him come out of No. 3—he went towards Holborn; I followed him and came up with—he was alone—

I joined him just in Holborn; at the top of Newton-street—Herbert was within a few yards of him—when I joined the prisoner he said be would have no more of it; he would settle it to-day or to-morrow—he went towards the Queen and Prince Albert public-house—I was still walking along with him; before he arrived at that public-house he repeated that he would settle it to-day or to-morrow; he would have no more of it—he went into that public-house—he said he was gang to have a drop of brandy—I wished him good night—I did not go in—I should think he was about two minutes in the house—I saw him go from the public-house towards his own house—I followed him, with another constable—I saw him go into his house; he went up into his own room and struck a light—that must hare been very near 2 o'clock on the Friday morning—I did not hear his voice laying anything when he got into the room, at that time—I staid in Newton-street, near his lodging, about five minutes after he had gone in—during that time I heard nothing—the light was not burning when I went away, it only burnt so long as a match would burn; it was a match that was lighted, no candle; it appeared to me that no candle was lighted from the match—I remained on duty in the neighbourhood up to about 3 in the morning—about a quarter to 3 I was in Holborn, at the corner of Little Queen-street—the prisoner came up to me in that street; he had blood on his face—I spoke to him; he was unable to answer—I looked under his chin, and saw that his throat was cut—I then, in company with police-constables Wensley and Watts, went with him to King's College Hospital—when we got to the hospital, and after he had sat down in a chair, be touched me with his toe on the calf of my leg, apparently to attract my attention—I looked towards him and he nodded in the direction of Newton-street—I said, "Where is your wife?"—and he nodded in the same direction again—I asked him whether he had cut his wife, and be nodded; I understood him to mean yes—upon that I went with Wensley to 3, Newton-street, leaving Watts at the hospital with the prisoner—we went to the first floor front-room—there was no light in the room when we got there—on entering the room I saw the deceased lying across some baskets with her throat cut—her body was in a lying position, with her head dropped back—she was lying on her back, by what I saw of her—I left the body in its position until the surgeon came; I did not move it, I went for the surgeon—when I went out I left Wensley in the room with the deceased.

Cross-examined. Q. I suppose it was dark; the morning had not begun to dawn when you saw him? A. No; I cannot say that it had—Wensley and Watts went to the hospital with me; we walked on each side of the prisoner, assisting him; he was bleeding at the time—when we went to the house in Newton-street, we had a lamp, after we got into the room, a bull's eye—I went very near the body; I did not go quite dose to it, the other constable was before me; I looked over his shoulder—he went close up to the body—he did not walk about it; be stood almost close to the feet—I am not aware that I walked in the blood; I did not see any blood at the feet—the lamp was turned on just to look at the woman, and I went for the doctor—I do not know whether I stepped in the blood or not—I talked within a foot of the body—it is a small room, I can't say the size of it—I believe the deceased was lying on her back, from what I could see of her—there are two windows in the room, one of the windows is opposite the door as you enter, the other window is nearer to the fire-place; the body was at the window nearest the fire-place—that window was open; I

believe there was a flower-pot overturned, but I did not see that—I did not examine the state of the room afterwards as to the blood—I went out very quickly to fetch the doctor; as soon as I saw the body I turned suddenly and went out, as quickly as I could.

COURT. Q. You say you asked the prisoner whether he had out his wife? A. Yes, and he nodded—I was examined before the Magistrate (looking at his deposition) this is my signature—I am certain that he nodded—(The witness's depositions being read, stated, I said, "Have you cut your wife, and he appeared to me to nod")—I stated before the Magistrate that be nodded, and I understood him to mean yes—I do not recollect saying that he appeared to nod—my deposition was read over to me—I see it is stated here "He appeared to me to nod"—I have not the least doubt that I stated that; I do not recollect saying it.

ROBERT WENSLEY (Policeman, F 36). I was on duty in Little Queen-street, Holborn, on Friday morning, 2d August—about a quarter to 3 I was called by Wakeham to assist him in taking the prisoner to the hospital—when the prisoner was brought into the surgery he was set down in a chair, and I heard Wakeham ask him "Where is your wife," or "Is you wife at home?"—I think those were the words—he tried to speak but he could not, and he nodded his head in the direction of Newton-street—he nodded his head on the right side, sideways (describing it)—that was in the direction towards Newton-street—Wakeham then asked him if he had cut his wife, and he nodded his head, as much as to say "yes," as I understood him—he nodded like that, forwards; not in the same way as before—upon that I left the hospital with Wakeham and went to No. 3, Newton-street—Watts, another constable, who had gone with us, remained in the hospital with the prisoner—when Wakeham and I got to Newton-street, we went into the front room first floor—the street door was open—the room door was shut, but not locked; the key was on the outside—I put my hand on the knob and opened the door—I turned on my bull's eye, and saw the woman lying dead, with her throat out—Wakeham went at once for the doctor—I remained in the room until the doctor came—I touched the body before the doctor came—I took hold of the left arm, and it was quite warm; it was lying on her side, resting on her leg—after I had felt the arm I put it on the leg again or close by it—I think I put it where it was before, but I cannot be certain exactly—I did not move the body in any degree before the doctor came—I staid there until the doctor came—another constable was there; he did not move the body—there was a candlestick in the room on the table—the table was almost in the centre of the room—the candle was burnt out; the grease had run on to the table and was fixed.

COURT. Q. About what time was it do you suppose when you got to the house? A. About 3 o'clock; I heard St. Giles'clock strike while I was in the room—I was in the room I think about two minutes before the clock struck.

MR. CLERK. Q. How long was Wakeham away before he returned with the doctor? A. I should say a quarter of an hour or twenty minutes—when I turned the light on I saw a large pool of blood, about three yards from the deceased's feet—I did not step in that pool of blood—there was also some blood on the window seat—I did not see another pool of blood on the floor—Watts was the other constable who was in the room; he had come from the hospital—I saw a razor lying close by the pool of blood; it was smeared with blood—Watts came in and I showed him the razor, and he Picked it up; that was before the doctor came—the razor was lying close by the pool

of blood, about three yards from the deceased's feet—I saw the razor before Watts picked it up—it was open, quite open, just as if you wore going to shave with it; the blade was turned right back from the handle—it was not in the pool of blood, it was at the right hand aide of the blood; the pool of blood was nearer the deceased than the razor—the deceased was lying with her back right on to the window seat—Watts kept possession of the razor until Inspector Mackenzie came—he kept it in his hand as he picked it up.

Cross-examined. Q. What distance is the hospital form where the prisoner came up to you? A. It is not a quarter of a mile, I should think—I was not in the hospital above two or three minutes—I should suppose we were not above fire or six minutes in getting to the hospital; it might be tan minutes—I am quite sure that I heard the clock strike after I got to Newt-street—I went into the room first, with my light in my hand—I did not see the body at first, not till I had got about half-way into the room—I was looking for something—I did not walk round the room, I walked up straight just about within a yard or a yard and a half; and I then discovered the body on the basket—I turned my light on—it is not a very small room; I do not know the size of it, I never measured it—I should say that the distance from the window to the opposite wall was five or six yards, I can't say positively; it was not more than the distance from me to you—I dare say it was as much—I give it as my opinion that the pool of blood was about three yards from the deceased's feet—I am not mistaking yards far feet—I dare say I had been in the room about two minutes before I saw the razor—Wakeham had left before I saw it—I did not go searching about—after I discovered the deceased, and the other constable was gone, I turned my my light on to the floor—I might certainly move about—I saw the razor before Watts arrived but did not touch it; my intention was to leave it till the doctor arrived, but Watts picked it up; he did not come with the doctor, he was there before the doctor—the rug was in its usual place—the pool of blood was at one end of the rug, I should say about a foot or a foot and a half from the rug, from the end nearest the deceased—I still adhere to my statement that the pool of blood was three yards from the feet of the deceased.

JAMES WATTS (Policeman, 82 F). On the morning of 2d August I went with Wakeham and Wensley to King's College Hospital with the prisoner—he was there put into a chair—I saw him put to leg to Wakeham, touch him on the side, and put his band towards him making a motion for him to come to him—I then heard Wakeham say, "Where is your wife?—the prisoner motioned towards Newton-street—he put his hand to his throat and motioned towards Newton-street, that is, he turned round and with his head motioned towards home with his hand, and nodded his head at the same time (describing it)—Wakeham then said to him, "Have you cut your wife?"—he nodded with his head once, in that manner, as much as to say yes—upon that Wakeham and Wensley went to Newton-street and I remained with the prisoner—after they had gone I asked the prisoner if he had served his wife as he had served himself—he nodded with his head that way—I staid with him till Mr. Fortescue, the, house-surgeon, arrived, and after assisting the prisoner to bed I went to 3, Newton-street—I found Wensley there—I picked up a razor from the floor—when Mr. Paynter, the surgeon, came I pointed out to him the place where I had picked it up—when I picked it up I did not observe any mark on the floor where it had been; I saw no particular mark except the pool of blood—I should think the

razor was about three yards from the feet of the deceased, as near as I can guess—there was a chair near where I picked up the razor; the razor was close to the leg of the chair, about two or three inches from it—the chair was facing the fire-place—the back part of the chair was towards the fire-place.

Cross-examined. Q. Can you tell me the size of the room? A. I think about six yards in length; six or seven perhaps, and about five in breadth, from the window to the opposite wall—I saw the pool of blood—the rug was close to the fire-place, the pool of blood was between the deceased and the rug, quite close to the edge of the rug, it might be about a foot from the rug, something like that—from the extremity of the deceased's feet to when the razor was, I should think was about three yards—the blood was probably about two yards and a half from the deceased, or a little more; I did not measure it, but as near as I could judge—I should not think that the room was more than five yards in width—the fire-place is not in the centre of the room, it is in the corner—the pool of blood seemed to be in one place—it ran from the beginning of the chair towards a hole or opening in the flooring; it ran from the chair towards the deceased—before I put the question to the prisoner, after the other constables had left, he second anxious to say something to me—he motioned me towards him and second to say something, and I went to him—it took us about three, four, or five minutes to go from where I first saw the prisoner to the hospital.

COURT. Q. You were examined before the Coroner? A. Yes; and signed a deposition—I have stated to-day that, after the other two constable had gone away, I asked him if he had served his wife as he had served himself, and that he nodded his head in that way; I did not say that before the Coroner—I thought as we were going before a Magistrate the case would be more gone into—I did not remember it at the time I was before the Coroner; I omitted it—I intended to have mentioned it—(The witness's deposition was put in and read).

RICHARD BUDD PATHER . I am a Fellow of the College of Surgeons and a Doctor of Medicine—on the morning of 2d August I was called by the constable, Wakeham, to go to No. 3, Newton-street, Holborn—it was about half-past 3 when I got to Newton-street—I went to the front-room first-floor—the constables Wensley and Watts were in the room when I got there—(The witness, at the request of counsel, had sketched in court a plan of the room, which MR. CLERK now proposed to refer to; MR. RIBTON objected, as it did not profess to represent the proportions of the room or the exact relative positions of the objects within it, and it might consequently tend to mislead the Jury. MR. JUSTICE BYLES entertained very little doubt that the sketch was admissable, subject to the cross-examination of the witness who made it; but he was unwilling to insist upon its reception in so serious a cam if the prisoner's counsel objected: it was not, therefore, placed before the Jury)—The door by which you enter the room is opposite one of the windows—there are two windows to the room, looking out into Newton-street—the window opposite the door is on the left hand as you stand in the room facing the street—the fire-place is in the angle of the room almost opposite the other window; it is in the right-hand corner after entering the room, on the same side of the room as the door, rather at the corner of that side—the body of the deceased was lying in the window opposite the fire-place, that is on a line with the other window—between the two windows there were two large boxes, one upon the other; the body lay close to the boxes, which were at the right-hand of the deceased—she was lying on her back, with her hand to

the window—there was a chair on the left aide of the body, between it and the wall—there was a large wicker basket underneath the body, such as they hawk poultry in about the street; it was nearly a yard in its longest diameter and upwards of a foot in depth—the body was lying in a sitting position upon the wicker basket—the bottom of the basket was not uppermost, the posterior part of the deceased had sunk down somewhat into the basket; she was in a sort of sitting position, but the large handle of the basket prevented the body from sinking down entirely into the basket—the handle went quite across the shorter diameter of the basket in an arch—she was not under the handle, she was as it were sitting upon half the basket—there was an old fashioned window-seat to the window, and the head of the deceased was hanging over it—the body was resting upon the basket in a sitting position, with the back of the body against the window-seat; and the head was hanging far back over the window-seat; underneath the left shoulder, on the window-seat, was an over-set flower-pot, the earth being scattered on the window-seat—her legs were drawn up underneath her, drawn up close to the basket—both the hands were lying in her lap—the blood from the body had run on to the window-seat, from thence on to the floor in a pool of blood, not running sufficiently far towards the fire-place to be apparent, being hid by her clothes; it was entirely under her. except what was on the window-seat—the window-shutter at her right side was very much splashed with blood, as from a cut artery having flowed against it—a large stream of blood had flowed upon the window-shutter on her right, as if blood had spirted from an artery—there can be no doubt that at the time the blood had so spirted from the artery, the body was in the position in which I found it—the thumb and three first fingers of the left hand were deeply cut on their inner sides by a sharp instrument—from their position I think that could have been occasioned by grasping a sharp instrument—it was a wound that might have been made at one cut, the fingers and thumb being flexed (pointing out its position to the Jury upon his own hand)—it might be caused by a grasp, if the fingers were flexed the cut on the three fingers and thumb would be in a straight line—there was a large cut on the throat of the deceased eight inches long—it commenced nearly at the centre of the back of the neck and proceeded downwards and forwards across the right side of the neck, across the throat downwards to the centre of the left collar bone (pointing out its position)—it was a very deep wound; it had cut nearly all the muscles—I cannot give its depth by measurement; it had first severed the skin and some muscles, it had then cot off the top of the transverse process of the third neck bone—that is a prominence of bone which projects on either side from one of the back bones, it was the top of the transverse process of the third cervical vertebra—that was towards the commencement of the cut; it had cut through the muscles and arteries at the aide of the neck, and had then severed the thyroid cartillage, Adam's apple as it is commonly called—the carotid arteries lie there, and all the large arteries and veins—in the case of the deceased the cartilage was ossified; it had cut positively through it—it is above the wind-pipe, the wind-pipe begins below the thyroid cartilage—the wound then became shallower to its termination—death would have followed very soon after the infliction of the wound—when a person's carotid artery is cut through, I cannot possibly say how soon death would ensue—in my judgment it would be within a very few minutes—cases has been recorded of persons being capable of exertion after the carotid artery was cut through; I can imagine that a person might walk a few feet, stagger a few feet I might say—there

were no Indications of that in this ease—there were do marks of footsteps of blood at the feet of the deceased—I saw the cap of a man on the window eat, at the right side of the head of the deceased, I think it was lying partly on the side of the head and partly under—I removed it—at some distance from the feet of the woman there was a chair standing very near the fire-place—one of the constables, I believe Watts, pointed out to me the spot where he had picked up the razor—I saw a mark on the floor in that spot; it was a mark of blood supposed to have been made by the razor; it was within an inch or two of a large pool of blood—the spot pointed oat to me where the razor was picked up was a few inches from the leg of the chair, and two of my own full paces from the skirt of the deceased's dress—that would be about two yards; not the nearest part of the pool of blood, but where the razor was lying—there was a pool of blood flowing in a direction from that chair, and in the direction towards the deceased's feet—it flowed so in consequence of the declivity of the floor—I could tell that that pool of blood had flowed from the chair towards the deceased, and not from her, because the end of the pool flowed into a large crack in the floor—I did not measure the distance of the hole in the floor from the skirt of the deceased's dress, but I believe it was a full yard—that would be about half way between where the razor was picked up, and where the woman's dress extended to.

Q. you saw the position of the body of the deceased and the nature of the wound—in your opinion, as a surgeon and medical man, taking into consideration the circumstances you have described, could the deceased have inflicted those wounds herself? A. I should be sorry to swear it was impossible, but it is most highly improbable—it would require very great force to cut through the transverse process of the vertebras and the thyroid cartilage—the flap of the wound towards its left lowermost extremity had the skin torn up from the tissues beneath to the extent of about an inch in depth, by about three inches in length—it is rather difficult to explain—the upper flap of the wound was torn up from the tissues beneath—if the flat part of the blade of an instrument was carried underneath the skin it might tear it up from the tissues beneath; that is to say if the cutting edge was not carried vertical to the skin, but the flat pushed against the skin and pushed underneath, as it were, that would tear up the skin from the tissues beneath—that would indicate that the weapon had not been drawn cleanly through towards the end of the cut—there were also splashes of blood on the window-shutter—I have no doubt that the wound was inflicted where the body was lying—I did not examine the prisoner, not so as to give evidence about him—I have no doubt that the blood on the window-shutter had shutter immediately after the infliction of the wound—by immediately I mean directly—I have no doubt the body fell where the wound was inflicted—there were marks of bruises about the face—there was a bruise on the left jaw bone, and the inner side of the upper lip was out as if from having been knocked against the teeth—that out was quite a recent one; the body was quite warm when I saw it, even the fingers were warm—I did not see the wound made by the teeth on the lip at that time; it was at the post mortem examination that I discovered that—it had not cicatrised, it had been made recently before death.

Cross-examined. Q. Have you ever seen any wounds of this description before? A. Oh, yes, many—I will not swear it was impossible, but it is highly improbable that such a wound should be self inflicted—I have read Dr. Taylor upon this subject—I am aware that there are instance on record, of cases which come within the category of what I call highly improbable

cases—the deceased appeared a very strong robust woman—I did not observe a rug in the room—I do not know whether it had been removed before I got there; the pool of blood was very near the fire-place—I visited the prisoner at the hospital, but I did not attend him—I examined the wound on the deceased's left hand very closely—it had the appearance of having grasped some instrument—she would get those cats by grasping an instrument, the instrument then being withdrawn from the grasp—one single grasp done in that way would do it.

COURT. Q. Was the window shut or open? A. Open; and there was a mating space where the flowerpot that was overset might have stood—it was a fine night—the cut on the hand must have been occasioned by a very sharp instrument, it was so clean—it had one edge—one cut would do it—the cat on the thumb would have been upwards—I observed the direction of the outs, and closely examined them, thinking it might be important to observe hem—it is my belief that an instrument with one edge, and with out stroke might have made the cuts—I added the words, "and being withdrawn," because I do not think that simple pressure directly down upon the edge would have produced so clean a cut; not simply taking hold of a sharp instrument and pressing it—no other instrument was found—a closed razor was found in the room, but that was not bloody—a very blunt carving knife was also found on the table, which stood in the centre of the room—that was not such an instrument as could have inflicted the wound.

GEORGE FORTESCUE . I am house-surgeon at King's College Hospital—on the morning of 2d August, between 3 and 4 o'clock, I was called to the forgery to see the prisoner—he had his throat out—the wound had almost stopped bleeding then—it was bleeding very little—it was a wound straight across the upper part of his throat—I did not measure its length; but it was between three and four inches—it was a deep wound—it had not reached the windpipe—it was above the windpipe, above the thyroid cartilage—it was deeper towards the right extremity—I could hardly say from the appearance of the wound in what direction it had been cut, from right to left, or from left to right; I could hardly form an opinion as to that—it was a clean out wound—it must have been inflicted by a sharp instrument—there were some slight scratches on the left hand—they were unimportant—they were apparently recent—there were no cuts upon either of. his hands that I saw—the wound must have bled a good deal at some time—there were no important vessels divided; but there must have been a considerable bleeding—it had almost entirely ceased when I saw him—I could not form any opinion as to how long before the wound had been inflicted.

Cross-examined. Q. Was there anything in the appearance of the wound inconsistent with this state of things, that it might have been inflicted by somebody else, whilst he was lying on the ground asleep? A. Not at all—he was pale, and weak, and faint, when I saw him—he appeared quite unable to articulate—I have no doubt that he was unable.

ROBERT MACKENZIE (Police-inspector). I went to the room at No. 3, Newton-street, about half-past 3 o'clock on the morning of 2d August—I was there before the surgeon arrived—the deceased was partially undressed—the skirt of her gown had been taken off and was hanging up behind the room door—there was a table in the centre of the room and upon it lay a carving-knife—it was a very blunt one—there was a spot of blood on the upper side of it—it was lying flat on the table—I do not think it had been used for any purpose—the blood upon it was wet; but that spot was all the blood there was upon it—the handle was towards the door of the room—on

12th August, I went to the hospital as was my daily custom, to see the prisoner—I saw him in one of the wards there, and said to him, "Cogan, what am I to do with the furniture of your room?"—he said, "Where is my wife? is she remanded?"—I said, "No; she is not"—he said, "Where is she?"—I said, "I am sorry to tell you that she is dead"—he commenced sobbing, and asked when she died—I replied, "The very morning that you came here," meaning to the hospital—he asked me if she was buried—I said, "Yes; she was buried last Thursday at Ilford"—he said, "We were at a funeral the day before, and were as happy as any two young persons could be: I wanted her to come upstairs; she would not, but went into the water-closet; and when I was lying asleep on the hearth-jug she did this to me," making a motion with his hand across the throat—he said, "I was not drunk; all I had was two pennyworth of brandy; I had spent 10s. or 12s. in cab hire the day before; and I prevented her throwing herself out of the window on two or three previous occasions."

Cross-examined. Q. Do you happen to know that on a previous occasion the prisoner charged the woman with assaulting and wounding him? A. Yes; I do—he had a punctured wound on the left arm—I am speaking from memory—it is some few months back—she was not actually summoned to appear—she was charged and given into custody; but, on being searched, no instrument was found on her—the charge was abandoned, the prisoner did not appear, and she was discharged the following morning—he did give her into custody, and I saw the wound—the bed in the room had not been turned down.

MR. CLERK. Q. Were you at the station when this charge was made by the prisoner against his wife for having wounded him? A. Yes—she was in custody of a police-constable—the charge he made against her was for assaulting and wounding him with some instrument, at that time, that she had just wounded him—there was a little blood on the arm, and I believe he was sent to King's College Hospital, which we do in all cases of that nature—after the charge was made she was searched, and nothing was found on her—she denied the charge at the time.

ANTHONY MEAD . I am waiter at the Queen and Prince Albert public-house in Holborn—I have known the prisoner seven or eight years—on 2d August, he came to our house about 1 o'clock in the morning—he appeared at that time to have been having some drink—he said, "I want a pint of four half-and-half"—after he was served with it he put his hand in his left trousers pocket, pulled out some copper money, and said, "Another b----row—I said, "What is the matter?"—he said, "I have lost more money"—I said, u Have you got a hole in your pocket,"—he said, "No; good night, I'm b----if I don't do it"—he had another half-pint, and then left, and came in again half an hour afterwards—I don't know whether he had anything more to drink then—I was talking to three gentlemen at the time he came in—he said nothing to me when he came back—that was the last I saw of him.

COURT. Q. What time was it when he came back? A. About half-past I.

Cross-examined. Q. What time was it when you saw him first? A. 1 o'clock, after midnight.

COURT to GEORGE WAKEHAM. Q. At the time the prisoner came up to you at 3 o'clock, had he anything on his head? A. No; no hat or cap—he was wearing a hat when I saw him before.

WILLIAM FITZGERALD (Policeman, F 50, examined by Mr. Ribton). I heard the prisoner make some statements with reference to this matter—I

heard a clergyman read prayers by his bedside—at that time he made some statements in my presence, not consider these statements to me—(Mr. Justice Byles did not consider these statements admissable).

COURT to ROBERT MACKENZIEM Q. Is Newton-street in the county of Middle-sex? A. It is.

JURY. Q. Was there any blood found upon the hearth-rug? A. None whatever.

COURT. Q. How far was the pool of blood from the hearth-rug? A. About a foot.

COURT to ROBERT WENSLEY. Q. What time was it when you were called to assist in taking the prisoner to the hospital? A. A quarter to 3—the seat of the chair was towards the door; and the back of the chair was against the wall, close to the wall—the razor was lying on the right-hand side of the chair.


NEW COURT.—Thursday, September 26th, 1861.

PRESENT—Mr. Justice KEATING; Sir JAMES DUKE, Bart, Ald. M.P.;


Before Mr. Justice Keating.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-784
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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784. HENRY HEARN (42), Was indicted for a rape on Susannah Johnston.

MESSRS. COOPER and DICKIE conducted the Prosecution, and MR. SLEIGH the

Defence. NOT GUILTY .

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-785
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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785. GEORGE WILLIAMS (25) . Robbery on Pietro Zappie, and stealing from his person 1 chain, his property.

MR. TAYLOR conducted the Protection.

HENRY OLDS . I am a painter, of 17, Ponsonby-place, Milbank—on 31st August, about 7 at night, I was in Smith-street, Westminster, and saw the prosecutor—a youth went up to him at the corner of Orchard-street and struck him somewhere about the head, and went down Orchard-street, which leads to St. Ann's-street—the prosecutor followed him, and when he bad got about half way down, the prisoner made his appearance, went up to the prosecutor, and persuaded him to follow the youth who struck him, and give him in charge—they continued to go down Orchard-street—the youth got on first and hid himself in the gateway, at Ludford's, the rubbish wharf, and the prisoner led the prosecutor down St. Ann-street—when they had got about half way up, the youth who had struck the prosecutor rushed from the gateway and tried to garotte him—the prosecutor made a struggle, and succeeded in throwing him off, and he ran away again and got on ahead, and they followed him, and when they got to the corner of Old Pie-Street, while the prisoner was directing his attention to the way he had taken, he matched at his chain—I saw that distinctly—the prosecutor put his hand up and stopped his watch, and the prisoner bolted off the prosecutor running after him—I am quite sure the prisoner is the man—I was within a foot of him all the time—I saw him next morning in Strutton-ground—I told a policeman, and he was taken in custody.

Cross-examined by by MR. LLOYD. Did not you try to stop the. prisoner? A. He did not get far down; he only dodged for the prosecutor to follow him—it was when the prosecutor was following the boy that the prisoner up—they were just at a mere trot—I could walk a good deal sharper

than they were running—he did not get within ten yards of him—I was along side all the time—I did not tell him to run after the boy, I remained perfectly passive—I never spoke till I spoke to the policeman—there were other people about, bat I do not think they took any interest in the case—Strutton-ground is a sort of market-place—I had never seen the prisoner before to my knowledge—I went with a policeman to the police-office, and pointed him out—he was not alone—there were several other people there—I pointed him out to a policeman when he was buying some eggs and butter, and a loaf, and the policeman waited till he came out of the butter shop, and then took him down to Rochester-row station.

PIETRO ZAPPIE (through an interpreter). I live in Horseferry-road, Westminster—on Saturday night, 31st August, I was in Westminster—I do not know the name of the street—I first saw a youth and then the prisoner—I cannot say which of them it was, but somebody struck me on the head—the prisoner came up and said, "What, a bad boy struck you," and advised me to go after him—we went together after the youth—I was talking to the prisoner about two minutes, and he took my Albert chain from me—I held my watch and the chain snapped—the prisoner ran away—I will take my oath he is the man.

Cross-examined. Q. Where had you been that night? A. I came from the other side of the water—I had not been drinking—I am not given to drink—the prisoner advised me strongly to walk with him, and told me that it was the boy who had struck me on the head—I understand a few words of English—it was three or four minutes after I was struck, that the prisoner took my chain—I did not see him again till he was brought to the station—he was alone—I had never seen him before.

JURY. Q. Did the youth who first struck you attack you a second time? A. No; I received one blow, and the second time he laid hold of me and shook me.

HENRY MARCH (Policeman, B 169). I took the prisoner on Sunday morning, 1st September—Cole pointed him out to me—I told him the charge—he said that he was innnocent, and that he was a stranger—he said that he should not go, but there was another constable, and we took him to the station.

MR. LLOYD called

CHARLOTTS HANNAN . I live at 39, George-street, Chelsea—the prisoner is my brother—on 31st August he came to my place, at, I think, about five minutes past 9, with another witness, who is outside—he stopped till half-past 11, or a little over—I know several of the gas factory men, and they told him that if he went to the Westminster gas factory works he would get work in the morning.

Cross-examined by MR. TAYLOR. Q. Are you close to the gas works? I A. No; but I know several men who work there, and he said to me, "Well, I had better go and take a lodging that I may get there early—that was on Saturday night—they hire men on Sunday morning at the gas works—I have another brother who works there—you can walk from Smith-street to my place in a quarter of an hour or twenty minutes—he used to lodge with me, and sometimes at his mother's—he was living with me at this time—he was with me on the Saturday morning—my mother sent him 10s. to enlist in the Artillery—he never moved out on the Friday, and he helped me move, and helped me rip a coat to pieces for my little boy—I know he came back at 9 o'clock on Saturday night—I know the time because I had got some pots on the fire to send my husband's supper down, and I said to the person with him, "Mary, what is the time?" and she said, "five minutes past 9"—I have no clock.

COURT. Q. You say that he sometimes lives With you arid sometimes with his mother? A. Yes; bat he is nearly always with me—he has lived partly with me, and partly with his mother, since he was quite a little boy.

MARY HAGAN . I live at 4, Manor-gardens, Chelsea—I know the prisoner—I saw him on 31st August, about a quarter to 9, in the Kings-road, Chelsea, a little way from Sidney-street—I was alone, and went with him to hit sister's, and remained with him till half-past 11, and took my supper there—I left him a little way in Pimlico, at about a quarter to 12, and do not know what became of him.

Cross-examined. Q. Are you any relation of the prisoner or of the last witness? A. No; but I have been a neighbour of her's three or four years—nothing particular was said about the time, but when I went in-doors she said, "What time is it"—I said, "About 9, or a few minutes after"—I am married—I stayed so long because it was Saturday, and my work was done—I do not know where the prisoner slept, or where his lodging was.

MR. LLOYD. Q. Do you know if he is a working man? A. I have heard his sister say that he is a tailor.

COURT. Q. Where does he work? A. I do not know—his sister told me two days afterwards that he was taken in custody—I did not go before the Magistrate.

MR. TAYLOR to CHARLUTTE HANNAN. Q. Did you say that you persuaded him to stop all night to work at the gas works? A. No; he told me he had better take a lodging and get up early and get work to go on with.

COURT. Q. He did not sleep at your house? A. No; neither did I know he was locked up—on Monday afternoon I met a man who told me he saw him locked up—I did not go to the police-office, because he was remanded then—he wrote me a letter at the House of Detention, and I went then, but it was too late to see him—I did not go before the Magistrate because the prisoner did not send for me—he thought he should get off without requiring us.

MARTHA HUNTLEY . I live at 18, George-place, Queen's-road, West, and have known from childhood—I saw him at his sister's house on 31st August, at twenty minutes or half-past 9—I did not remain there—I only went for this bag which I had lent her—I do not know how far her house is from Horseferry-road, Westminster, but I should say I could walk it in half an hour.

Cross-examined. Q. When did you know he was in custody? A. His sister came to me, I think, on Friday last, and asked me if I recollected coming on that Saturday night, and I said, "Yes."

MR. LLOYD. Q. Do you know if he is a working man? A. I believe he is.

GUILTY .— Confined Eight Months.

THIRD COURT.—Thursday September 26th, 1861.


Before Robert Malcolm Kerr, Esq.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-786
VerdictsGuilty > pleaded guilty

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786. CHARLES PACE (17) , Unlawfully obtaining, on 2d August, 1 chain, the property of William Poole; on 15th August, 1 chain, the property of George Wheeler and others; on 17th August, 1 clock, and on 19th August, 1 clock, the property "of Edmund Henry Roblin and others, by false pretences; also feloniously forging and uttering a request for the delivery of 6 watches; also a warrant for the delivery of 2 chains; also a request for the delivery of a watch; also a request for the delivery of a clock, with intent to defraud; to which he

PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Ten Months.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-787
VerdictGuilty > with recommendation
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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787. ERNEST TILLEY WARD (31) , Stealing 500l., the property of James Russ and others, his masters.

MESSRS. GIFFARD and ORRIDGE conducted the Prosecution.

JAMES RUSS . I carry on business in the firm of Coster, Beater, Dennant, and Russ, 3 and 4, Aldermanbury—the prisoner was a clerk in our employ—he was chief cashier—his duty was to receive monies, for which he was to account to Mr. Dennant—he was to enter them in his cash-book, which was kept by him alone—from something that came to my knowledge, on Monday, 5th August, I had an interview with the prisoner in the counting-house—I told him that I was quite sure there was dishonesty on his part, that if such was the case, he had better confess it, for I was determined to find it out—Mr. Lovell, the ledger clerk, was at this time also in the counting-house, and I said to him, "Lovell, do you know if Ward has robbed us?"—about that moment Ward left the counting-house, leaving Lovell there alone with me—Ward came back in about ten minutes and flung down this letter (produced).

MR. HAWKINS. Q. Was the letter sealed at the time? A. I do not know—it was given to Mr. Dennant, and read in our presence—I do not know in whose writing it is—this envelope may have been fastened—I should say from the appearance of it that it has been sealed, closed with gum—it has not been closed, to my knowledge, since it was thrown down—I know nothing further about it having been sealed than judging from its appearance now—I should imagine that it was sealed then—whether Mr. Dennant broke the seal I do not know; he took it out and read it—the prisoner was there then—I will not swear whether he read it aloud—I can pledge my word that either by showing it to me or by reading it to me, he made me acquainted with the contents. (MR. HAWKINS submitted that this letter was inadmissible until it could be shown that the prisoner was cognizant of its contents; that it might have been a letter put into the prisoner's hand by tome person wishing to implicate him, or even an anonymous letter. MR. GIFFARD contended that it would be evidence even if it were anonymous; take the case of a person found with a parcel of stolen goods in his possession, the fast could not be excluded, even if the prisoner were not proved to be acquainted said the contents. The COMMISSIONER was of opinion that it could not be read unless it was shown that the prisoner knew the contents.)

MR. GIFFARD. Q. Do you know those envelopes (handing one to him)? A. I do not—I have not, to my knowledge, seen the prisoner use any envelopes of that sort.

MR. ORRIDGE. Q. After the prisoner brought this letter in and Mr. Dennant had read it, what did the prisoner say? (MR. HAWKINS submitted that this question could not be answered after the words by the witness, which amounted to a promise and that any statement made by the defendant after that was inadmissible. MR. GIFFARD contended that the principle on which a confession would be excluded was, if the person was induced to make it by the hope of reward, or believing that something would be done prejudicial to him if he did not make it; but in the present case, the latter part of the phrase negatived any assumption that one or the other would be the case. THE COURT, after consulting MR. RECORDER, considered that those last words made no difference, and that they were bound by the cases upon the point.

MR. ORRIDGE. Q. After be came back with the letter, what did you say to him as to your intention with regard to prosecuting him? A. Nothing whatever at that time—before he left the counting-house I told him something.

MR. HAWKINS. Q. Was that after you had said, "You had better confess?" A. Yes.

COURT. Q. He made a statement to you which followed your statement to him? A. Yes—I then said something to him consequent upon his statement to me—this was before he left the counting-house, and before he re-lined and threw down the letter.

MR. ORRIDGE. Q. Now I ask what you said to him on his return? (MR. HAWKINS objected to this on the tame ground as before, stating that it must be considered as part of the tame conversation.)

COURT. Q. Did you then speak to him again? A. I did; in reference to what had taken place ten minutes before, when he was in the counting-house. (MR. GIFFARD proposed to thorn that—whatever the effect produced on the defendant by the preview conversation might have been, it was removed by this subsequent conversation; that the prosecutor, by law, either was or was not in a to remove that impression; if he was, they were entitled to have what he said in order to do so; if not, a prosecutor having once held out an inducement could never cancel it: that the moment that inducement was removed the ordinary rule of law applied, and the per son was responsible for any statement he might afterwards make; that if he was not entitled to ask the prosecutor what he did toy, an inducement might remain for ever; that it was the same principle at that by which a Magistrate it bound to caution a prisoner. THE COURT, after consulting MR. JUSTICS KEATING and MR. RECORDER, stated that he must tee what the answer toot before he could allow the question to be put. The witness was then directed to write down what he said to the prisoner, and, having done so, THE COURT considered it was admissible, but serve the point.

Witness. I said "You can do so if you like; but mind, I hold no out promise or inducement.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. What did the prisoner then say to you? (MR. HAWKINS objected to the answer being given, on the ground that the witness's last statement did not in any way remove the previous inducement, but simply meant that he held out no fresh promise. See Cox's Criminal Cases, Reginar v. Collyer, page 57. The COURT, after teeing the answer made by the prisoner, allowed it to be given in evidence, but consented to reserve that point.

COURT. Q. What did the prisoner then say to you! A. He said "fail come to-morrow morning and point out those things whether on I prosecute me or not."

MR. GIFFARD. Q. Did that end the conversation? A. Yes—he came the next morning—Lovell, the ledger clerk, was present—the prisoner came into a private dining-room, and called the ledger clerk to bring certain ledgers—they were brought—he then pointed out in the various ledgers in delinquencies, various entries—I made this note at the time at the Prisoner's dictation.

Q. Do you remember his coming to an entry about Mr. Weeks? A. That particular entry, he did not show in the ledger; he had not got so far—the ledger is here (produced)—the prisoner gave me down, "Weeks, of Baker-street, 500l., posted and never had," but he did not refer me to the ledger—he dictated that to me—the prisoner does not keep this ledger—debit cash-book (produced) is kept exclusively by him—this entry, under

the date of 22d July, 1661, is in his writing, "John Weeks, of Baker-street to cheque 500l.,"

Cross-examined by MR. HAWKINS, Q.C. (with MESSRS. METCALFE and BESLEY Q. The ledger was kept by Powell, was it not? A. By Lovell—hi has posted that 500l.—he posted the ledger from the cash-books—there, was the credit cash-book also, kept by the prisoner—Mr. Dennant, my partner, balanced with him every two or three days—the prisoner's duty was both to receive and pay monies—one of the partners, either Mr. Dennant myself, signed the cheques—when a customer like Mr. Weeks, who was teemed very highly, wanted money for a few days, we had no hesitation in letting him have it—if it was of any amount it was lent by cheque—500l. would be beyond all question by cheque—being by cheque the amount would appear in the pass-book, and in the cheque-book where the cheque was drawn—the cheque-book is here—the pass-book is not; it is in Alderman bury, I suppose—I do not know where it is—I have never seen it—the cheque-book I hare seen, and the banker's-book; they are here—I have not seen the pass-book—there would be no difficulty at all in testing the accuracy of an entry—there was not anybody, I believe, whose duty it was hi to check the cash-book with the ledger as posted—there are three partners in the firm who attend to the business; and one has been very ill for the last two or three years and been unable to give his attendance—there was no one whose duty it was to check the entries in the cash-book—nobody has ever done it at all—there was no one whose duty it was to check to accuracy of those items there, of 500l. and 250l. and such sums—it would be put in the balance-book, and would be assumed to be correct—I have been in the firm some fifteen or sixteen years—that is the mode in which the business has been conducted ever since I have been in it—I belive there is not any check at all upon the accuracy of any items, either a the cash-book or ledger, and never has been since I have been in the firm—the amount of transactions which have passed through the books in that way in the course of the year is, perhaps; 400,000l.—it is the case that that is the way of business; that there is that amount passing through the books in the course of the year, and that there is no check to the items, great or small—that position up to recently, eight or ten yean ago, was filled by one of the partners, and consequently no check was required—for that eight or ten years, since the duty has devolved on a clerk, that sum has passed through the books without any check being made on it at all—Mr. Weston was the chief cashier up to the time the prisoner entered on that position—I should say, from memory, that he has ceased to be cashier eight or nine years—the prisoner has been chief cashier eight or nine years—certainly there has been some investigation into the state of affairs during that time—we always knew exactly our position—there was no yearly or half-yearly audit of accounts—the accounts have never been audited since I have been in the place—balance-sheets were made up twice a year on an average; occasionally, only once a year—I was not is the habit of borrowing from time to time sums of money from the chief cashier privately—I was in the habit of drawing money for my private expenses through the chief cashier, 10l. or 20l. as I wanted it—it may have been perhaps, as much as 500l. or 600l. that I drew in that way in the course of last year—it may have been as much as 700l.; but I do not think it was.

Q. Will you swear it was not as much as 1,000l.? A. I will not swear anything as to it—I am in the habit of keeping an account when I draw money in that way—I should say that I did not draw in the course of last

year, at various times, sums to the amount of 1,000l., in that way—I will not swear, because it might be about that amount—sometimes I had cheques direct, and therefore I cannot divide the amount.

Q. Supposing you were debited to the extent of 700l., advanced to you in sums of 20l., 30l., or 100l. at a time, could you check that, whether it was accurate or not? A. That would never be the case—it would be impossible that such a case could arise, as I balance with the prisoner every three or four weeks—it is never more than 30l. or 40l., and that goes before my partner sometimes every two days—there was an account kept of advances made to me—there was the prisoner's balance-book showing the monies that I had; the book which went before my partner every two days—there was no entry made at the time—I have kept memoranda, but I have destroyed them or thrown them away—there is no book which is handed to me and in which I make an entry at the time, of the amounts—there was no book which it was the prisoner's duty to keep, in which from time to time, as the advances were made to me, entries ought to be made—I believe he did keep an account—I never saw any such book—he would keep a memorandum on his file—nothing more, I believe, than a mere slip of paper—that was the way in which monies to the amount of 600l. or 700l. a year in the aggregate ware handed to me; but never more than 60l. or 70l. at a time—my brother borrowed 100l. of the prisoner, I do not know how long ago—I did not know it at the time—it came to my knowledge some eight or ten months ago—my brother has nothing whatever to do with the firm—there was no other loan from the prisoner to him—I only know of that one—the prisoner was never required, that I am aware of, on the occasion of the balancing every two or three days, to hand over the balance in his hands—I did not transact the counting-house matters—I have never known him required to hand over a balance—he simply gave I O U's for the balance—I O U's for any balance which appeared against him at the end of the two or three days were treated as a debt against him—he accounted for the items in that page of the banker's book—I know nothing about whether he kept a banking account himself—sometimes he has had as much balance as 1,000l. or 1,100l.—that would chiefly consist of half-notes, bills, I O U's, traveller's expenses—there would never, I should say, be large amounts of cash in his hands; never more than 100l. or 200l. I should think—I cannot tell—I judge so—some of them were cash balances in his hands so far as I know—I do not know anything about how much they were—Mr. Dennant is here.

Q. Is this the only book in which there was any account pasted between the prisoner and Mr. Dennant? A, The only book which showed the results—it was Mr. Dennant's duty to check them, not mine—that book was an account from the prisoner to Mr. Dennant of the balance every two or three days—Lovell has been our ledger-clerk for, I should think, eight or ten years, I cannot tell—he is here—I am not aware that I have mentioned in evidence, before this morning, the statement that I made, "You can do so if you like; but mind, I hold out no promise or inducement"—I have spoken of it before this morning; not in the prisoner's presence, that I am aware of—I was not present at any consultation between me and my Counsel—I am quite sure that it is the very expression I made use of to the prisoner—I made no memorandum of it—I have no written memorandum of anything that transpired—I did not say, "Remember what I told you yesterday"—nothing of the sort—this was on the same day—I did not make any allusion to what had taken place in the morning—I did not know that I had

held out any promise, and therefore I made no allusion to it—when I said he had better confess; I did not use the words in that sense—his words were, "Whether you prosecute me or not, I shall do so"—they wore his words so nearly that I could not tell them nearer—I mean to swear that he said, "I shall come to-morrow morning and point out those things"—he said that, after he had made a statement; those very words, so that it is impossible for my memory to speak to them nearer—what he said was not that he would come presently and give me information; that was previously—he said he would come to-morrow morning and give me every information.

Q. Was not the expression he made use of, "I will give you every info Information;" and not "I will point out those things?" A. I really am not prepared to say so nearly as that; it was either "point out," or, "give information"—it meant the same thing—I say the words made use of were "I will come to-morrow morning and point out those things," or that which expresses exactly the same thing—I would not swear to being correct in any word.

Q. Now did he not, instead of the words "I will point out those things," my "I will come to-morrow morning and give you every information in my power?" A. Not that I am aware of—I apprehend it is ridiculous It suppose that I can give every word.

COURT. Q. What is your memory on the matter? A. My memory is, that he said those words, as near as I can recollect, "I will come in the morning and point out those things"—my memory is very strong on that point; but it may have been "and give you information"—whether he added "in my power," or not, I don't know.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. In every instance when you have had money from the prisoner would he give credit for that money in his accounts with Mr. Dennant? A. Yes—he took the credit in his I O U's—those were examined every two or three days by Mr. Dennant.

COURT. Q. He took the credit in his balance? A. Yes—I gave him an I O U when I borrowed.

WILLIAM JAMES LOVELL . I am ledger-clerk in the employ of Messrs. Coster and Co.—the prisoner kept two cash-books, one debit and one credit—this balance-book (produced) is in the prisoner's writing—he debits himself here with money he received, and credits himself with money received by the firm—I find here a balance struck of 1,056l. 5s. 3d., which shows that that amount of money is in his hands—then there is a column showing what those different items consist of—assuming that he did not tab credit to himself for this balance of 500l., the balance would be increased to 1,556l. 5s. 3d.

COURT. Q. Does he take credit for that 500l. or not? A. Yes, he does; "advanced to John Weeks"—there is no such cheque drawn in favour of Mr. Weeks—I have seen no such cheque—the cheque book is here—there is no cheque for 500l. on 22d July, 1861—these are the counterfoils filled up in his writing—if there were any such cheque it would be his duty to put the counterfoil here, and here it would appear.

Cross-examined by MR. HAWKINS. Q. I see on these counterfoils the object stated for which each cheque is drawn? A. Yes; that is so—where you find that cheques have been taken off the counterfoils and nothing written in the margin, they would be cheques for private uses—I know about the loans to customers—the cheques for loans to customers were generally drawn by the defendant—I call them connected with the business—there is a credit taken here in the "O" book, page 272, of 532l. 16s. 6d.—on the other side are sums that he debits himself with—by referring to this book I find that

the previous balance of the settlement, on 23d July, is 1,230l. 8s. 11d.—the old book is not here—there was an old balance of 1,200l. due from the prisoner on 22d July, and that is brought forward into this book as a debt doe from him—I cannot, by looking at this book, tell you how much of that 1,200l. was cash, and how much was represented by other things—the "old" book would give it—I have not inquired how much was cash and how much other things—I have looked through the assets and find no sum of 500l. there—he used to come to the office at 9 o'clock in the morning, and left sometimes at 7 or 8 at night, sometimes at 9 or 10—he was very attentive to his duty—he lived at Dalston—he is a married man—he has a small house there, not living at all in an extravagant manner, but quite within his means; not within 200l. a year, I cannot say positively; attending to nothing, to far as I could see, but his business, and attending diligently to that.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. The "old" book to which my friend has referred, in not this book which has been produced? A. No; the "O" book which is referred to in that, is this book now produced—what I called the "old" book is the book of which this is a continuation—the book in which the 1,200l. due from the prisoner appears, is the "old" book—that is not here—it is in Aldermanbury—(MR. GIFFARD directed it to be sent for).

COURT. Q. Did you visit him? A. Yes; and saw his establishment—he kept a pony and chaise—it might be eighteen months, possibly, that he has done that.

JOHN WEEKS . I am a silk mercer, carrying on business at 54, Baker-street, Portman-square, and am a large customer of Cotter and Co.—besides purchasing things of them I have occasionally had advances of money from them—I did not receive any sum of 500l. on 22d July last, or any other time in that month.

Cross-examined by MR. HAWKINS. Q. You have received sums of 500l. I suppose? A. I have—I cannot tell you here when I received the last sum of 500l. and—I cannot tell you within a month—I certainly had not had 500l. for one or two months of that time—sometimes I had 500l. and sometimes 300l. according to what I might require—I had as much as 500l. early in August, before the 6th or 7th—the advances were always by cheque, signed by some member of the firm—I always applied to the firm for it.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. What was the largest sum that you had after this date? A. 700l.—that was on the 2d or 3d August—the exact sum was 687l. 19s. 2d.

JAMES RUSS (re-examined). This entry in the debit cash-book is in the prisoner's writing, (Read, 2d August, 1861, John Weeks, Baker-street, 687l. 19s. 2d.)

COURT to JOJN WEEKS. Q. How often did you settle your money affairs with the prosecutors? A. I usually gave an acceptance for the amount advanced, and of course that ran its time—I applied for the amount, bad it, and gave the acceptance for it—I did not see a regular debtor and creditor sheet of all my transactions to compare with my own books.

Q. Suppose in the end of July or at any other time, they had drawn on you for 1,500l., and you had received a note for that, and had thought "I cannot have received so much," would you have accepted it at once? A. No; I had my account as well as theirs, and had a statement of the business transactions once a month—on every occasion that I had a loan I gave an acceptance for the exact amount I had received.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. If this had been a genuine transaction you would have had to accept a bill for the amount, 500l.? A. Yes; I should have

gone to the firm for it; and I should have bad to give an acceptance for 500l.

FREDERICK DEENANT . I am in very bad health and have been for years—it has been my practice to take these two days accounts together with the prisoner; sometimes two days, sometimes more, and sometimes only one—I did not do anything more than see that the assumed items agreed with the account, and for this reason, the prisoner has been in our employment many years; my health having been to excessively bad, rendered the confidence reposed in him absolutely necessary.

Cross-examined by MR. HAWKINS. Q. with what did the items correspond? A. With the little book you have before you, in which he made up the cash; that book shows the whole of the entries—we had nothing between us but that book—I never had any account whatever but that book shown to me during all the time fee was cashier with us—when loars were made to a customer the securities were always handed over to me—as often as the prisoner had the bills he gave then to me, and they accounted for part of his assets—I very rarely indeed looked at either the debit or credit cash book, I think I may say never—I have certainly looked into the ledger and cash-book within the last twelve or fifteen years, but not with a view to examine them—I have seen the inside of them every day, but not to examine them—I have never checked any entry in them within that time, except when I was cashier, which comes within the last fifteen years—it is, I should think, very nearly fifteen years since I ceased to be cashier—I have been a partner ten years—I can show that it was not a loose way of keeping accounts, from the necessity which arose—there was no other partner who could look into the cashbook or ledger.

Q. I see here very large items 2,153l. and such like sums, was there any one at all for the last fifteen years, in your house, who checked any one single item in this balance-sheet book with the items in the ledger or in the cash-book? was there any check of any kind on the clerks and cashiers in the house, for the purpose of testing the accuracy of these balances? A. I cannot answer that question without qualification.

COURT. Q. Did you do it yourself? A. I did not, nor do I "know of any other person doing it; for this reason I looked on him almost as myself.

MR. HAWKINS. Q. I ask you if there was any man in the firm who kept a check on the accounts? A. No one—there were other clerks in the firm who kept accounts, ledger keepers—it was the prisoner's duty to check those accounts—he accounted to me for the whole of that money; it was his day to receive it, and to take it from others who received it—when an amount is received it is received by the ledger clerk—it was the prisoner's duty to see that the whole of the accounts were correct—the whole duty of seeing its correctness devolved on him—that applies to all the cash—I required him to account for the balance—it was never the custom for him to pay the balance over to me—he could not pay it over—he was never require to do so—whenever the balances were struck I required him to give me on to I O U for the balance, and to account for it to me in the next account—he gave me the I O U as for a balance in his hand, and debited himself in the next account to that amount—I knew he was living at Dalston—I did not know the house—I knew nothing about the style in which he was living—I never made any inquiry about it—I always thought him most industrious in the business; I had the most unlimited confidence in him—we have only made accusations against one of our other clerks for defalcations, whom we have prosecuted—that was a clerk who accounted to me, bat it

was the prisoner's duty to see that be kept his books correctly—we prosecuted that clerk for robbing us of 500l., but I suspect it wag a great deal more.

COURT. Q. When was the prosecution of this clerk? A. Yesterday.

MR. HAWKINS. Q. Have you not, besides that one, charged other clerks with robbing you? A. I think not—we have not received monies from them as the amounts of alleged defalcations—we have certainly not received money from them not to prosecute—we have not charged other clerks with robbing us—I have no recollection of having charged them with defalcations—I know it is not so.

MR. HAWKINS submitted that there was no evidence of larceny to go to the Jury; that there was not evidence of more than that a factitious entry had been made; that the books did not represent the true state of things; that there was a credit taken by the prisoner in his own favour for 500l. as paid to Weeks, which sum was never paid; but that there was no proof of an act of appropriation, nothing more than an intention to appropriate, even if it went that length; and that, of course, would not constitute larceny. MR. GIFFARD attended that the entry proved both that the money was in the prisoner's hands, and that he disposed of it; that it was an admission against the prisoner just as much as if he said "I have all this money in my pocket," and that it was for the Jury to say whether the entering of the name of some other customer was by mistake or not. MR. HAWKINS, in reply, stated that there must be some evidence given of the act of appropriation; that assuming, although contrary to the fact, that the prosecution could succeed in showing that every act the prisoner did was with a fraudulent intention, the case would still remain unproven; that it was quite consistent with all that had been proved that the cash may have been actually in the prisoner's own possession, and that the entry of the 500l. may ham been merely with an intention to misappropriate, which had not been carried out; that nothing amounting to an asportation was proved, in order to give the offence the character of larceny, and that therefore, then was no evidence to support the indictment. THE COURT considered that there was sufficient evidence to go to the Jury.

The prisoner received a good character.

GUILTY.—Strongly recommended to mercy by the Jury on account of his good character and length of service; the Jury also strongly condemned the manner in which the books were kept by the firm.

Six Years' Penal Servitude.

There were other indictments against the prisoner.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-788
VerdictGuilty > unknown; Guilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude; Imprisonment

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788. WILLIAM MURRAY (18), and JOHN EVANS (28) , Feloniously breaking and entering the warehouse of Richard James Baylis and another, and stealing therein 1 coat, 2 boots, 2 shoes, a pipe bowl and mouth piece, and 1l. in money, their property.

MR. BROOKS conducted the Prosecution.

FRANCIS OFFER (City Police-sergeant, 525). On Monday morning, 16th September, I was on duty in Botolph-lane, near Mr. Baylis's warehouse—it was about twenty minutes or a quarter to 3 o'clock, in my judgment—in passing those premises I heard somebody whispering or quietly talking, and a rattling of papers—I still listened to it and heard some one inside say, "Ted" or "Ned," I won't be sure which it was—not being aware but what some one was living on the premises, I went to a house adjoining, or within one door of it, rung the bell and asked—after that a ladder was got, and I and Sergeant Turner got in at the first-floor window—we first saw that a

square of glass had been broken, and a half-penny lay beneath it in the, private passage—we got into the warehouse and found all the desks broken open—we then went up stairs—I found this box, knife, two screw drivers and this iron wedge (produced); and up stairs this other box (produced) with the two bundles of cigars in it, and this boot (produced) lying nearly alongside of it—one of the screw drivers was lying on the desk, not in the box—the iron chisel was lying in the counting-house, but I could not say exactly where, because I did not pick it up—it was not in the cigar box—I put them in the box to take care of them—I saw a hole, where any one could have got in; that was up in the top of all—I did not get out at that hole—at about ten minutes past 6, I went to another warehouse, about two warehouses off—I did not go along the roof—I went to Thames-street and down a lane before then, and underneath a barge I saw Evans taken out by another constable just as I got there—I went down to the station and from there I came back to another warehouse, where I found these three pain of boots (produced)—they were all wet and dirty—Evans afterwards said at the station-house, "That is my pair" (pointing to a pair)—he said, "Yes will find two pair and an odd one."

COURT. Q. Did you speak to Evans first? A. I did not—I cannot say why he spoke about boots at all; he had got none on—he said, "You go back to the second floor, and you will find two pairs and an odd one;" bat I found three pairs, pot side by side—that was at Keeling and Hunt's warehouse, two warehouses from Baylis's—I did not see any one in Baylis's warehouse—Murray would not own any of them—I did not try any on him—I put them under his feet; I did not put them on; they did not fit him.

Evans. When I went to the station-house they took all my clothes from me and put these on that I have got now. Witness. That is so; he was in such a state, he was not fit to remain in the clothes he had on.

ROBERT ADAMS (City Police-sergeant, 576). I went on this Monday morning, the 16th, to Mr. Baylis's premises—Offer was there when I got there—I went from information that I received—I saw several desks broken open, and proceeded to make a search after the thieves—I went to the top of the house and found two tiles removed; I removed three more and broken away some of the woodwork, and I and Sergeant Turner passed through the aperture—I proceeded over the roof of about twenty houses till I got to the top landing window of 120, Pudding-lane, where I saw footmarks on the outer sill; one as from a foot with a stocking on, and one the marks of a person's toes—that was a private dwelling-house—I looked over the parapet and found a police-constable stationed there below—I called out to keep the door—I then got in at the window, and saw the marks as of some persons wiping their feet on the mat—I was followed by two constables—I told one to stop at the window and I hastened down stairs; when I got within six stairs of the bottom, I heard the bolt slip; the front door opened and I saw the prisoner Murray leave the house—I followed him, kept sight of him, and saw him stopped in Lower Thames-street by constable Tibbenham—I sent him to the station by Tibbenham; I afterwards went to the station, where I saw Evans in custody as well—whilst I was telling to the station-sergeant haw I followed them, Evans said to me, "Ah! hid I met you in the house you would not be here now"—I saw a pair of shoes and a black cap picked up outside the door from which Murray went—the shoes are identified by Mr. Baylis; the cup is not identified by anybody—I believe the house is 120, Lower Thames-street, but the door is in Pudding-lane—

Murray had not cap on, I think, when he was taken; I will not be sure—he had so shoes—at the Mansion-house, when the boots were being tried on the prisoners, Evans reached over and said, "These are my shoes; I will not deny them."

FREDERICK CHARLES TIBBENHAM (City-policeman, 569). I was on duty in Pudding-lane, on the morning spoken to by the last witness—I saw the two prisoners come from the door of No. 120—I followed them quickly—I caught Murray in Lower Thames-street—he had no cap or hat on and no shoes or stockings—I took him to the station, searched him, and found on him 1s. 4d. in copper, and a pocket knife.

GEORGE BROADSTRENT (City-policeman, 593). I was on duty in Puddinglan on this morning—in consequence of something that Sergeant Adams said to me, I waited outside the door of 120, Lower Thames-street, about a yard and a half from the door—the door is in Pudding-lane—I saw the prisoners, and another person who escaped, come from the door—I made a rush at the two prisoners, caught hold, of both of them, and it being a very wet morning, I slipped down with the two; they escaped from me, but at the bottom of the lane I succeeded in getting Evans again, and we both fell together again—I am quite sure they are men—Evans was without any shoes when I saw him coming from the premises; one of them was bare foot and the other had stockings on—I knocked Murray's cap off his head; it fell into the road—the bottom of Pudding-lane is about, ten yards, as-near as I can judge, from the door where I saw them come out—that was there I slipped down with them I stood in Pudding-lane; it was a corner house.

JOHN TURNER (City Police-sergeant, 554). On this Monday morning, I went to Mr. Baylis's premises, about twenty minutes to 3 o'clock—we entered the first floor window by a ladder—going down stairs, I saw some pieces of glass lying on a mat outside the private door which leads into the warehouse—we had to force the door to get into the warehouse, and having done so, we found the desk had been broken open—we searched the warehouse, but found no person there—t then proceeded up stain—on searching the roof I found this boot underneath toe tiles, and by the side of a box which they had put under the hole in the roof, to get out, I found this coat—I sent for some more officers, and then on searching again we found that tome tiles had been removed—we got but on the roof and there I found a 1 adder lying down, which I afterwards ascertained had been brought from No. 10—we walked over several warehouses, and went down at No, 120—I heard a cry of "Stop thief," and rushed down into the street—it was found that they had turned down Swan-lane—I saw Evans found underneath a barge, all wet—I lost sight of them part of the time.

WILLIAM DAVIS (City-policeman, 495). On this Monday morning, I was on duty in Swan-lane, and heard a cry of "Stop thief"—in consequence of that I turned back and saw the prisoner Evans run down Swan-lane into the Thames—I followed him and took him into custody—he was quite wet—I found him under the barge, quite concealed under the water, except his tad, which was out—he had no cap on—he had a pair of stockings, but tank no boots.

JOHN RUDDICK (City-policeman, 534), On this Monday morning, I went with Adams over this roof into the house at Pudding-lane—before we entered the house I saw footmarks on the window-sill—we proceeded down stairs, in time to see Murray leave the premises—when I turned out at the door I saw Evans turning the corner out of Pudding-lane, on the right

towards London-bridge—I followed Evans—he ran in the direction of Swan-lane and turned down Swan-lane; just as he turned the corner I lost sight of him till I got into the lane—I proceeded down Swan-lane—he ran a little way along the embankment, and then jumped into the water—I went after him; he got out of the water before me and got underneath a barge and was concealed under water—I searched him at the station-houses and found on him twenty-one receipt stamps, twenty penny postage stamps, two sixpenny postage stamps, twenty-three cigars, 3s. in coppers, seven sixpences, the mouth-piece of a pipe, and also a bowl and four keys; he dropped 2s. 5 1/2 d. in copper from his pocket, on the steps of London-bridge.

RICHARD JAMES BAYLIS . I am a boot merchant residing at 16, Botoph-lane—on going to my premises on this Monday morning, I found the police in possession of the premises—this pipe bowl is my brother's, and also the mouth-piece—they were in one of the desks which were broken open—the premises were open and in the possession of the police—I missed then things which are identified, a quantity of copper and silver money, more than 20s. worth, and some stamps, a great many more than were found, and also some shoes and a coat.

Evan. At the Mansion-house he said he would not swear to the pipe or mouth-piece.

COURT. Q. Have you any doubt about the boots? A. Not the slightest—one pair is mine and the other my brother's—the coat is my uncle's.

JURY. Q. Is that odd boot yours? A. I identify it as my brothers; it has that name at the bottom—the odd boots are a pair, one was found in one place and one in another.

Evans's Defence. The gentleman has not sworn to anything that was found on me.

MURRAY— GUILTY Three Years' Penal Servitude.

EVANS— GUILTY .— Confined Ten Months.

FOURTH COURT.—Thursday, September 26th, 1861.

PRESENT.—Sir JAMES DUKE, Bart. Ald.;. Mr. RECORDER; and Mr. Ald HALE.

Before Mr. Recorder.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-789
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment; Imprisonment > other institution

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789. WILLIAM HIGGINS (13) , Stealing 4 pounds of cigars, and 8 ounces of tobacco, the property of Janet Margaret Crouch; to which he

PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined One Month, and Three Years in a Reformatory.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-790
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty; Guilty > lesser offence
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude; Imprisonment

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790. THOMAS ROBINS (34), and MARY WRIGHT (44) , Burglariously breaking and entering toe dwelling-house of Eliza Parry, and stealing therein 1 cloak, 3 petticoats, and other articles rake 2l., her property. Second Count, feloniously receiving the same; to which Robins

PLEADED GUILTY .**†— Four Years Penal Servitude.

MR. ROWDEN conducted the Prosecution.

WILLIAM ACKRILL (Policeman, 48 F). In consequence of information I received, I went on Sunday morning, 22d, September about 8 o'clock, to No. 6, Great Earl-street, Seven Dials, in the parish of St. Giles—I went into the first floor back-room, and saw the female prisoner there in bed—I told her that I wanted her for stealing a clock and other things from No. 10 Great Earl-street that morning—she said she knew nothing about it—the

prosecutor vat with me—I searched the room and found the clock under the bedstead—it had stopped at twenty minutes past 2—I also found these three skirts, a dress, a blanket, and some other small articles (produced)—the female prisoner told me that Robins had left them there—I then went to No, 10 in the same street, leaving her with another officer—I went up stairs there and found Robins in bed.

Wright. I did not know but what the things were his own.

JOHN WHITMAN . I am a coach hammerer and live at 10, Great Earl-street—in the middle of the night of 21st or 22d September, about ten minutes or a quarter to 2, I was going into that house and taw the prisoners there—the man was behind the street door—they spoke to me—I went out again and presently returned—I saw the two prisoners coming out of the house, and the woman had a bundle under her arm covered over with something white—I could not see what it was in it.

COURT. Q. How long was it after you saw them the first time, that you mm them again? A. It was 2 o'clock, as near as anything, when I saw them the second time.

ELIZA PARRY . I am a widow, and keep a shop at 10, Great Earl-street, Seven Dials—I shut up my shop on Saturday night last, and went to bed about half-past 10—about a quarter past 2 by my own clock, I was awoke by hearing a noise—the clock was going when I went to bed—it was half an hour too fast—by my clock it was a quarter past 2—I dropped off to sleep again, and slept till about ten minutes past 3, when I was awoke by some one calling me up—I got out of bed aid missed tone articles—this is the clock which I lost—I have had the other things given up to me—I saw the things that I lost safe on the, night before, in the back parlour where I slept; and my door was looked and bolted—the catch of the bolt was broken off, and on the floor—the male prisoner lives in my house on the first floor back-room.

WRIGHT— GUILTY of receiving , †— Confined Three Months.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-791
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown; Guilty > unknown

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791. ALFRED GEORGE PARR (26), and MARY PARR (27), were again indicted (see page 636) for stealing 1 blanket and 1 pillow, the property of Abel Dickens.

MR. ROWDEN conducted the Protection.

LAWRANCE RYAN (Police-sergeant, 15 E). On the evening of 11th September, in consequence of information I received, I went to the house occupied by the prisoners, to the first floor back-room—I there found the male prisoner alone—I told him I had come to search, and I did search, and found four duplicates in a purse concealed between the tick on the bed and a cover—he said he knew nothing of it—the prosecutrix, Mrs. Dickens, was with me in the room and she charged the prisoner with stealing the articles to which those duplicates referred, and gave him into my custody—I took him to the station, and going along I told him I was going to ask him a question; he need not answer me if he did not think proper—I asked him what he had got to say to the charge; he said, "I told my wife this morning that it was getting odd, and we should want the blanket—that was all—I had previously seen the female in the street, and she told me where she and her husband lived.

Alfred Parr. I said "Another blanket," not "The blanket."

ANN DICKENS . I am the wife of Abel Dickens, a police-constable, of 1, Titchfield-street, St Ann's Westminster—bout the middle of July last, the male prisoner took a furnished room in our house—he came on the Wednesday,

and the female came on the Saturday—they lived together as man and wife—when they took the room there were blankets and pillows on the bed—on night of 11th September, in consequence of something Sergeant Ryan said to me, I went upstairs into their room, and missed one pillow and one blanket—I had seen them before when I let the room—these are than (produced)—I then gave the male prisoner in charge for stealing them—I saw Ryan find some duplicates between the bed and the cover—the blanket and pillow were worth 7s.

Alfred Parr. Q. Where was I at work at that time? A. I cannot say—when you took the room you were working in Richmoud-street—my wash-hand went there, and found you working there—he also saw you at work in Blackmore-street, Drary-lane.

COURT Q. How do you know the property? A. The pillow is my saw making; and the blanket I know by the texture and by the corners.

FREDERICK COLE . I am assistant to Mr. Ald is a. pawnbroker, of 87, Berwick-street—I produce this blanket and pillow pledged on 6th and 9th of August by the female prisoner, in the name of Ann Parr, Broad-street—they are worth about 4s.

Mary Parr's Defence. I am guilty of pledging those, but not of stealing them. I meant to fetch them out of pledge on the Saturday night My husband knew nothing about it. He mid we should want the blanket, that is all.

Alfred Parr's Defence. I have been out of work some time. I have warned her of the pawn-shop two or three times. I knew nothing that she had done this.



Confined Three Months, to commence at the expiration of her farmer sentence.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-792
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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792. WILLIAM HENRY SERMON (21) , Feloniously breaking and entering the warehouse of Hector Baxter, and stealing therein 140 books of gold leaf, value 8l., and other articles, his property.

MR. H. GIFFARD conducted the Prosecution.

ALEXANDER LOGAN . I live at 54, Golway-street, St Luke's, and am foreman to Mr. Hector Baxter, of 49, Bartholomew-close, as a bookbinder—the prisoner has been about two years in his service as a porter, carrying out books—he left about five weeks before the robbery—I discharged bin on Saturday, 17th August, I closed the premises as usual about ten minutes past 6—I closed the counting-house door, saw that all was fastened, and then locked the street-door—there is a yard at the back and a yard door, and a back door to the warehouse from the yard—I bolted that—it is a half-door, coloured glass at the top and wood at the bottom—the panel are not perfect, the glass is broken; and where the glass it broken it is covered with paper—I suppose the bolt of the door is about eighteen or twenty inches from the paper squares—if the paper squares were removed, a person from the outside could put his hand in and take hold of the bolt—the paper is over the door—it does not move with the door—the bolt is, perhaps, five feet from the ground—no one sleeps on the premises—I took the key with me when I had locked all the doors—on the following Monday morning I went there about a quarter before 7—when I opened the street door, I found the counting-house door open—that drew my attention, because I remembered distinctly closing it, before I went out—there were two desks in there—I found desk had been broken open and the paper strewed about, and found a knife

on the desk—one desk was not closed on the Saturday; the other was looked, and Mr. Baxter had the key with him—a hand had been pushed through the paper over the back door, and the bolt pushed back—the bolt and staple of the yard door were knocked away, but the lock staple had been pushed in agai, and the door pulled to, so that any person passing would think the door was firmly fastened—the staple of the bolt was not put in at all—I found three pieces of cloth in a book bag in the yard—I went to the place where the gold was kept and found 2,500 gold leaves taken away, in books of 500 leaves each—there were five packets taken of twenty books each packet—they were taken from a corner recess in the shop; a shelf which I keep on purpose—I then went upstairs to the workshop where the gold leaf is kept in use, and it was all taken away—I cannot say exactly how much was gone, but to the best of my recollection, between 800 and 900—it was worth about 8l. and the gold dust and gold rags about 12l., about 20l. altogether—the first 500 were in a corner were I work, tied up in packets, and the other was in little recesses where it is put ready for use.

COURT Q. Would there be any difficulty in a person not acquainted with the premises, finding this? A. They must know where it is, and nothing else was disturbed—there is no question about the person knowing the premises.

MR. GIFFARD Q. Is there a table in the centre of the workshop? A. Yes—I found a finger-stall on it—I saw that table cleared on the Saturday night by the porter and one of the boys—there was nothing left on the table then, except a few old books in one corner—there was a piece of rag in the finger-stall—I also missed a saw—I did not see the prisoner on Saturday—I am sure the finger-stall was not on the table on Saturday night.

Cross-examined by MR. WAY Q. You saw the table cleared; do you mean to say after the table was cleared that there was nothing left on it? A. Nothing, with the exception of a few old books, which have been lying there for a twelvemonth—after they had cleared the table they waited to shut up the workshop, and they did so—I was in the workshop and locked tie door—I cannot say I saw everything the boys did from the time the table was cleared till I locked the door—if one of them had seen a finger-stall on the ground he might have tossed it up on the table—they might have picked up a book and put it on the table, but I don't think it is possible they could do so without my seeing it—they were there two or three hours after the table was cleared—other people were in the workshop besides the two boys—after that there was nothing particular to attract my attention immediately before I shut up the workshop, but I was standing just by the table, waiting till they got out—there was only a little light in the work shop when I was leaving, as all the windows were shut up, except the end shutter—there were several men in the workshop after the table was cleared—if there was a finger-stall on the table when the boys cleared it, I did nut see it—I must have seen it if there was—there were books and loose paper on the table when they began to clear it—I will swear there was not a finger-stall amongst that loose paper—I think I must have seen it if there was—they were strips of paper which we put at the back of books—I certainly believe there was not a finger-stall beside those old books—I swear there was no finger-stall on the table on the Saturday night—there were no gloves there—the centre of the table was quite clear—this gold leaf was not in any secret drawer—I do not think it is likely that any person could go to where it is kept without knowing the place—it was open to any one who came in there—it was not locked up at all, it was in a kind of recess, a shelf.

WILLIAM SMITH . I am a city detective officer, and in consequence of information I received, I went in search of the prisoner—I went to his place, 6, Mill-street, Cloth-fair, on the morning of 20th August, about 8 o'clock, the Tuesday after the robbery—he lived there at that time—I knocked it the door—he was in bed—he let me in—I told him I was an officer and wanted to look at his hands—he showed me them, and I said, "Why, you have a bad finger"—he said, "Yes"—I took this finger-stall (produced) from his finger, and perceived that he had a bad finger—it was getting better—I cautioned him about saying anything, and then took from my pocket this thumb-stall with some rag in it, which I had received from Logan, on the Monday previously—I asked the prisoner if he knew anything of this—he seemed surprised, and hesitated—I said, "Is this yours?"—he said, Yes, it is"—I asked him how he could account for its being on the premiss of Mr. Baxter—he said very carelessly, "I don't know"—I told him I should take him into custody on suspicion of entering the premises of Mr. Baxter, and stealing a quantity of gold leaf; worth about 8l. or 9l.—he said, "I know nothing at all about it"—I asked him again about the finger-stall, and to his wife, who was there, said, "I suppose he left it there when he was in their employ"—I then commenced searching the place. and, turning suddenly round, I saw the prisoner holding up his finger to his wife, who was about to speak, as if to imply silence—the wife was sitting upright in bed at tint time with a baby in her arms—I ordered her to get up and dress—I then asked the prisoner to account for his time on Saturday evening—he said he was in bed between half-past 11 and 12 o'clock—I found a lot of duplicate there, not relating to this case, except one article pawned for 1s. 6d. on Saturday—while I was searching, I took from a drawer a little box—the prisoner's wife snatched it up and put it in her dress pocket—I asked what it was, and found that it was an old card of a friends' benefit society, and a contribution of 3s. had been paid on the Saturday night—I found also a pair of pincers, a quantity of keys, a screw-driver, and other little tools (produced)—I was sent for to the premises where the robbery was committed on Monday morning—I saw where the entry had been been effected by the yard door—I found a hole, apparently made with an instrument like this one, outside the back-yard door—this fitted exactly in the hole that was made—I also compared the marks on the desk that was broken open, where this knife was lying, and the marks corresponded—I first noticed this card at the prisoner's lodging, when the wife snatched it up and put it in her pocket—nobody was with me at that time.

Cross-examined. Q. Let me look at that pair of pincers; they are very common ones, are they not? A. Yes—there is an indentation on one of the handles, and that corresponds exactly with the hole in the door and the marks on the desk.

COURT to ALEXANDER LOGAN. Q. Had the prisoner a bad finger while he was in your employ? A. Not that I am aware of.

HENRIETTA REEVES . I am the wife of John Reeves, a labourer, and lira at 6, New-street, Cloth-fair—I have since removed—on 17th August the prisoner and his wife lived in the next room to me there—I remember that Saturday night—the prisoner came home at 1 o'clock on the Sunday morning—his wife came home at 12.

Cross-examined. Q. How do you know the time? A. I heard the chunk clock strike one as he came up stairs, and my clock was right at the time—I did not see him—I believed it was he—somebody came in.

COURT. Q. Did "he go into the room where the prisoner's wife was? A. Yes.

The prisoner received a good character.


23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-793
VerdictGuilty > with recommendation

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793. ORTHOS BATE (23) , Embezzling the sums of 8l. 12s. and 3l. 10s., which he had received on account of Thomas Bradford, his master.

MESSRS SLEIGH. and KEMP conducted the prosecution.

THOMAS BRADFORD . I carry on business in Manchester, and at 63, Fleet-street, London, as a washing-machine manufacturer—I employed the prisoner at Manchester as an assistant clerk at wages of 25s. a week—I subsequently caused him to come to London to manage the business there Mr. Giles is my managing man there—the prisoner's duties were to receive money and take orders, and to send whatever money there was beyond paying the servant's wages, to Manchester every week—when he received money he had to enter it in the cash-book—in consequence of information I received, I came to London and spoke to the prisoner—I had previously been up to London and discovered something wrong, but he had not given me a full statement of what was wrong; and when I came up on 16th, he handed me this book in his writing—on the previous occasion I said to him, "There is something wrong here, Bate"—that was about three weeks ago—I had got some papers that he had left, which I showed him, and he said, "Yes, there is Sir; I confess that I have been doing wrong"—I said, "Well, now tell me what you have done, whether it is 5l. or 500l., let me know the worst"—he then gave me this list in writing (produced)—the amount then deficient was about 80l.—he said there was 30l. odd which he had not accounted for—I said to him, "Mr. Giles is coming back to-night: you must go through the books, or I cannot allow you to go from here"—I returned to Manchester and subsequently came to town again on 16th—I then bad another conversation with the prisoner—I said I was very sorry to see that he had not told me all—he was silent—I said it was a very serious matter as to whether he thought I could stand it—he begged for mercy, and said, "Well, Sir, I confess that I have done wrong"—I said, "What have you done with the money?"—he said, "I have spent it."

Q. Do you know of an item of 8l. 12s. paid by Mr. Wood; look at that cash-book, has he accounted to you for that particular item and for the other item? A. No; the other it 3l. 10s.—his duty was to enter those in some particular cash-book.

COURT. Q. Have you his cash-book? A. Yes, this is it—they were not entered in the cash book—I saw this book when I came up three weeks ago, and they were not entered then—he did not say when he had received this 8l. 12s. and 3l. 10s.

Prisoner. Q. How long have I been in your service?. A. I think it is about six months—you engaged as an ordinary clerk, and if you suited my purpose you were to go out to travel—I took you over to Paris with me, merely to see what you were made of—I paid your travelling expenses—you were some weeks at Manchester before you came to London—you had been in the office with my other clerks—it was not decided how long you were to remain in London—it was decidedly understood that you were to have, in the absence of Mr. Giles, the entire management of the concern in London—there was nobody else—you were to be held responsible—you conducted my foreign correspondence—when you gave me the rough balance sheet on the morning of my arrival from Manchester I saw two names scratched out and that first led to my suspicion; that lead to the whole investigation—you confessed that they had been paid—you volunteered to assist Mr. Giles in balancing his books—you staid in London till I came from Manchester last Tuesday—you were not under any kind of restraint at that time—you returned to Manchester last Tuesday at my

expense—you begged me to let you go and see your mother and brother when I said I must give you in charge—I gave you money to telegraph for me, which you never did, and I placed it in the hands of the police—on Sunday evening you came and surrendered at my house—I could not, do anything else but call in a policeman and give you in charge—I believe the amount of money you handed over to me when I first came to London was about 47l. 10s.

MR. KEMP. Q. Is the prisoner married? A. He is not—he had no travelling expenses in London—at the time he left Manchester nothing was owing to him for travelling expenses or anything else.

ALFRED GILES . I am clerk to the prosecutor, and reside at his place of business in London—it is part of my duty to go to agricultural shows during the summer—previous to my taking the present summer tour the prisoner was sent to London to assist me—his duty was to take orders, see that they were executed, and to enter cash in the cash-book, and at the end of the week add up the sums so paid and remit the balance to Manchester—his salary was deducted from that; he also kept a petty cash-book—I think I returned to London about 24th August—I found no entries bid been made in the cash-book, and told the prisoner so—he said be would have them made up for me by the Monday—I went away on the Monday to Dartford, was away four days, and returned on Thursday, 29th—I found Mr. Bradford there hen—he said, in the prisoner's presence, that there was a deficiency in the books, and that he was to stay and go through the books, and have the balance struck—this was on 29th August—nothing was aid about Towers on that occasion—on going through the accounts, I gave him the ledger, and checked him—I found some accounts omitted—the entries were in the day-book, and posted into the ledger subsequently—my object was to ascertain what was paid and what was not—I noticed in going through the books, that he had not made out one or two accounts—they were open in the ledger, showing that they were unpaid—they all appeared to be due—Wallis, Harles, and Towers were three of the names—I asked him why he had done so—he said he wished to have some talk with me, he wanted my advice—I said, "Well, what is it?"—he said, "I have not told Mr. Bradford all"—I said, "Are there more accounts that are paid, that are not entered! "—he said, "Yes I will make you a list of them"—the list was made and it amounted to about 67l.—it was transferred to the cash-book, which is in the prisoner's writing—Nichols and Harle are the two in the indictment—I was much suprised when I saw the amount, and asked him what he had done with the money—he said, "I have been foolish, and have spent it upon women," or words to that effect—that amount from Nichols, 8l. 12s., was never paid over to me by the prisoner, or the amount 3l. 12s. from Harles—they were not entered in the ledger or cash-book.

Prisoner. Q. When I took the management of the London business was there any balance-sheet made out? A. No—I think you were there two or three days previous to my going to Truro, a few days after you returned from Paris—I resumed the management of the concern on my return, and you gave me in a balance then—that was in June—you turned over what cash there was by your books—you handed me over the difference between the amounts you had received, and the amounts expended—there is due now about 1,300l.—you had ample opportunity of receiving a great portion of that—the amounts of sale in July and August had been larger than they have ever been before—we have two branches now—you were no tentrusted

with any moneys after the deficiency was discovered—you received a bill from me to go and get cashed.

MR. KEMP. Q. Up to this time had the prisoner always deducted big alary, 25s. a week? A. Yes; and nothing was owing to him at that time.

COURT. Q. Is that bill the prisoner's writing? A. Yet—(Read: "1st July, 1861, received 8l. 12s. for J. Bradford. O. B.)

FREDERICK WOOD . I am manager to Messrs. Nichols, of 150 Leadenball-street; this account was paid in our office—I cannot say whether it was paid by me—I do not know the prisoner's writing.

EZRA HARLES . I am a surgeon—I paid this amount, 3l. 10s. to the prisoner on account of the prosecutor—I saw him sign it (read), "Thomas Bradford, general engineer, received payment, 3l. 10s., Thomas Bradford, 0. B."

Prisoner's Defence. I engaged with Mr. Bradford about five months ago; my salary was to be 25s. a week, expenses paid. I had to come up to London to take Mr. Giles's place, and put up at a coffee-house; I thought I was only to come up for two or three days; it cost me 26s. a week there. I had to buy fresh clothes, as I had only brought one change of linen. As regards Mr. Hade's account, I recollect the circumstance very well; he said he owed another balance and would come and pay it shortly. It is not likely that I should deliberately and dishonestly take money; it is very probable that money was paid to me and I have put it in my pocket when I was called away for something else; it is possible that certain accounts, without intention, were omitted. As to embezzling or stealing I totally deny that I have done it; I could have run away with double or treble the amount. I surrendered myself; is it likely that if I was guilty I should have done that? I was put into a situation that I knew nothing about; I am a bad book-keeper, and could not live on 25s. a week; that is my only fault.


Recommended to mercy by the Jury on account of his youth and the insuffient salary for so responsible a position.— Confined Twelve Months.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-794
VerdictNot Guilty > directed

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794. CHRISTOPHER MARRIOTT (34), and CHARLES BOWLER BENNETT (32) , Unlawfully obtaining 6l. of Charles Sutterby, by false pretences. Second County, for conspiracy.

MR. MACDONNELL conducted the Prosecution.

CHARLES SUTTERBY . I keep the Welsh-harp public-house, Sussex-street, Strand—I knew the prisoner Marriott, about seven or eight weeks previous to 23d August coming into my house as a customer—on Friday afternoon, 23d August last, he came to me with a cheque, and asked me if I would oblige him by cashing it—I said, "I don't like to take a cheque from any one, it is perfectly true I know you from going in and out of the house—what do you know of the parties whose names are on the cheque I"—he aid, "This Josiah Evans is a rich old gentleman with plenty of money, formerly a cotton lord in Manchester, now living at Acton"—he did not say any particular place at Acton on that occasion—I told him I did not like cashing a cheque for any one, but I knew where he was lodging; and after he had assured me that it was perfectly correct I cashed the cheque for him—this is it (Read "London, August 23d, 1861. Sir Benjamin Hay wood, Bart and Co., Manchester, pay C. B. Bennett, Esq., or bearer, 6l. "endorsed" C. B. Bennett, C.E.)—I saw nothing more of him till Sunday—I sent for him on the Sunday morning and he came in between 1 and 2—I said, "Marriott, I have felt very uncomfortable about this cheque, and I

have not seen you since I cashed it"—he said, "It is perfectly correct" I made up my mind to send it to Manchester, and I asked him if be would write down the addresses of Josiah Evans and Mr. Bennett—he said "Certainly"—these are the addresses he wrote down, (Read "J. Evans Esq., Oakenfelds, Acton," and "C. B. Bennett, Esq., 61, St. George's-road, Clapton"—I afterwards received this letter (produced) enclosing the cheque which I had sent—I enclosed the cheque on the Monday, and received this on Wednesday—I gave the prisoner into custody on the Saturday following—this is the envelope enclosing that letter—I have never received the 6l. on account of this bill—the words Marriott used were, that it was perfectly correct—he said I should find it quite correct—that meant that it would be paid—it was because I believed that to be true that I advanced the money on it.

Cross-examined by MR. GIFFARD (for Marriott) Q. Where did Marriott live? A. 30. Bouverie-street, 200 yards from my house; at the Sussex-hotel, Bonverie-street—I only saw him twice from the time he gave me this cheque till he was given into custody—I spoke to him about the cheque on the Sunday, and again on the Saturday before I gave him into custody—I saw him once more, but did not speak to him then about the cheque—I sent Mr. Young for him on the Sunday and he came to me—I believe Mr. Young was there when he came—he is not here—Marriott told me that he got the cheque from Bennett—he appeared before the Alderman on the Monday—I do not know who produced Bennett; he came forward—he was called as witness for the defence I should suppose; I do not know—I saw Marriott on the Friday before the Saturday he was given into custody—I am not aware that he was there with his children—I believe he asked after my family.

Cross-examined by MR. BEST (for Bennett). Q. How many times were you before the Magistrate in this case? A. Four times—I first saw Bennett there on the second occasion, I believe—I believe he tendered himself an evidence on that occasion—the case was remanded, and he appeared the third time—I believe he gave his evidence then and was examined—I believe that was the third time; I wont be quite sure.

COURT. Q. Did anything pass on Friday about this cheque? A. Marriott came in with two other customers—I had my eye on him, and ha said, "How do you do, Mr. Sutterby?"—I said, "Quite well," and after that I went out for a policeman, but could not see one then, and he left.

RICHARD TAYLOR . I am cashier at Messrs. Hay wood, Brothers, and Co. Manchester—the firm of Sir Benjamin Haywood, Bart., and Co., ceased to exist on the 31st of last December—the style of the firm is hanged—the present firm is Haywood, Brothers, and Co.—that is the name under which the business of that firm is carried on—there is no other firm carrying on business under the name of Sir Benjamin Haywood and Co.—I have been there twenty-five years—in August last, I received this letter, enclosing this cheque—I returned the cheque to the writer of that letter—I do not know any person banking with our firm of the name of Josiah Evans—I do not know any person named C. B. Bennett.

COURT. Q. Do you know whether there was a person of the name of Josiah Evans, who was a cotton lord, at Manchester? A. I do know the name at all.

GEORGE LEGG . I am a City detective—I took Marriott into custody on Saturday afternoon, 31st August, at Mr. Sutterby's house—I showed him this paper, and asked him if they were the correct addresses of those names on the cheque—he said, "No"—I then asked him for the correct address and he wrote on the back of this paper, C. B. Bennett, 2, Hatchamterrace

Hatcham, New Town—he said, the other was the correct address, Josiah Evans, that he lived at Oakenfelds, Acton—another officer asked him what Bennett was, and he said he was a civil engineer—he said he had known one twenty years and the other many years—I have myself inquired if there is such a person as Josiah Evans residing at Acton—I hold a warrant for his apprehension—I have tried to find him.

Cross-examined by MR. GIFFARD. Q. Did not he say that Bennett was about to remove? A. Yes—I was present when Bennett was examined as a witness—I have been to the address that Bennett gave—I could not find such a place as St. George's-road, Peckham, and no such person ever lived there—I have been to 4, Hatcham-terrace—there is somebody hero from that place.

JAMES HANN (City-policeman, 360). I searched Marriott at the station, and found on him 3s. 11d. in money, and this letter (Read: "Dear Charley, I shall be back here from 5 to 6; if you can't be here, leave a line saying where I can see you, yours truly, C. MARRIOTT. Addressed, C. B. Bennett Esq.)—I asked Marriott who this person was, named Bennett—he said, "That is the person whom I received the cheque from"—he said he was a civil engineer, and that he had known him for twenty years as a respectable gentleman—he said he lived at 2, Hatcham-terrace, Hatcham New Town—I have made inquiries at Acton as to Josiah Evans—there is no such place as Oakenfelds, Acton.

Cross-examined by MR. GIFFARD. Q. Have you any one who known Acton here? A. We have subpoened the postmaster—I do not know whether he is here.

GEORGE MARTIN . I am chief clerk at the Guildhall Police-court—Marriott was there upon a charge at the end of last month—Bennett was subsequently examined as a witness—I took the notes of his examination—these (produced) are they (The examination of Bennett was here read, he stated that he had a place at 4, Hatcham-terrace, New Town, which he still held; that ok signature on the back of the cheque was his writing, and that he received the cheque from Josiah Evans, who was originally a partner in a house at Manchester, and that he lived now in Oakenfelds, Acton, that he had been there himself and seen him there; that he gave the cheque to Marriott on 23d August, in Bouverie-street; he also stated that he had seen Josiah Evans at the Pine Apple public-house, in Hungerford Market, on the evening before Marriott was given into custody, and that he believed Evans to be a man of property, worth 3700l.; that he had been working as a civil engineer on his own account; that the cheque was given to him by Evans as part payment of an account, and that Marriott was not with him at the time it was given; that Evans said the cheque was all right, and that he did not know it was returned till id September, when Evans told him so.

Cross-examined by MR. GIFFARD. Q. I suppose you took all you considered material? A. I took every word he said—I remember his using the name of Mr. Edwin Chaswick—I did not take the name down—I did not think it material—I saw no account—one was not given to me.

WILLIAM SPIBEY . I am a sergeant of the detective police, Manchester—there is no such place at or near Manchester, as Oakenfelds, Acton—I have been at Manchester five years.

EDWARD AUGUSTUS MARSDEN . I am a solicitor in Walbrook—I know the prisoner Bennett—I have received cheques from him drawn by Josiah Evans—I have got the cheques—I have another one besides this, but did not send it down—I got this from Bennett at my office about the date of the cheque—it is dated August 6th, 1861, and is for 22l. 16s. 9d.—that

cheque was not paid—I told Bennett afterwards that the cheque had come back marked, "No account"—he said it would be all right, it was some mistake in the account; that Mr. Evans would put it all right—it) has never been paid.

Cross-examined by MR. BEST. Q. Do you know that Bennett lived at 4, Hatcham-terrace? A. Yes—there is such a place as St. George's-road or terrace, Peck ham—I never saw Mr. Evans—I have heard of him a great deal from Bennett.

MR. MACDONELL Q. Had you an invitation from Bennett to dine with Evans? A. Yes, a verbal invitation; I was to go and dine with him it Oakenfelds, near Acton—I went, but was unable to find Oakenfelds—(Cheque read: "Sir Benjamin Hey wood, Bart, and Co., pay C. B. Bennett or order 22l. 16s. 9d., 6th August, 1861;" ticket attached, "No account."

WALTER EPHRAIM GOATLY . I am a solicitor at 5, Mitre-court, Temple—I know the prisoner Bennett—I received this bill of exchange (roduced) from him on 20th June—it was never paid (Read: "Bill of exchange, 10th June, drawn by Charles Bowler Bennett on Mr. Josiah Evans, Salford-road, Manchester, for the sum of 100l.; accepted, payable at Barclay's Lombard-street, J. Evans; endorsed, Charles B. Bennett."

WILLJAM SPIBEY (re-examined). There is no such place as Salford-road, Manchester.

Cross-examined by MR. GIFFARD. Q. Do you mean to swear that? A. That is so—there is Broughton-row in Salford—that is not commonly known as Salford-road—Broughton-row is written up—there is no person from the post-office here—I went to that direction; I did not go to Salford—I was certain there was no such road.

(The Court considered that there was no evidence of guilty knowledge on the part of Marriott, and that the count for conspiracy could not be supported.)


23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-795
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

Related Material

795. MARY ANN TAYLOR (33), was indicted for wilful and corrupt perjury.

THOMAS DRY . I am in the service of Messrs. Harrison, pawnbroker! in Wardour-street—on 28th August a shawl was pledged there, I cannot say by whom—I have no belief as to whether the prisoner was the person or not—I said before the Magistrate that I could not say for certain—this is the shawl (produced)—on 4th September, a person called with the ticket—I have it here—I refused to give the shawl up then—a few hours before the person came with that ticket the prisoner came with a declaration, and I delivered up the shawl to her with the declaration—this is it (produced).

Prisoner. Q. Sometime previous to the declaration being brought, I believe the shawl was stopped, was it not? A. Yes; I believe your husband stopped it.

THOMAS SHILLINGFORD (Policeman, C 141). The signature to this declaration is the handwriting of Mr. Beadon, one of the Magistrates—I declared it myself to the prisoner in the usual form, as to its being her handwriting and about the ticket; she said she had lost the ticket, and I took this on to the Magistrate, and he signed it—(Declaration read: "Middlesex, August 28th, 1861, I Mary Ann Taylor, of 19, Portland-street, do solemnly and sincerely declare that I pledged at the shop, 98, Wardour-street, on 28th August, the articles described in the margin, and that I have not sold the said ticket since that time; signed, Mary Ann Taylor."

JESSIE ZINUCHI . I live at No. 8, Mead's-court—I know the prisoner—she came to me seven weeks ago, I think it was on a Friday; I do not remember

the date—she wished to sell two tickets, one of a shawl, which had been twelve months in pawn—I purchased the ticket of the shawl for 4s. 6d.—I had it six weeks in my possession—she said she was afraid I should lose my shawl, and I went to Mr. Harrison's to get it, and found there was a declaration on it—they advised me to go to the Magistrate—I went to the prisoner and said, "You bare taken a false declaration upon that shawl"—she said, "Yes, and you may go and do your worst"—she was detained as she came out and locked up in the station, where she had been the night before—I am sure that was before 3rd September—I had the ticket six weeks in my possession, and she came three days before that and asked me if I had taken it out of Mr. Harrison's shop—and I said, "No, I had not the money to take it out."

Prisoner. Q. Did you not tell me, in August, that you had lost the ticket? A. No; I never said anything of the sort—I did not toll you that it was over the month, and I should expect you to pay 3d. in the shilling.

Prisoner's Defence. She said she would go with me to get a declaration on the shawl; if they had asked me whether I had lost the ticket, I should have said "No." I was to give her 3d. in the shilling after the month; I got the shawl out and took it to her with tie money; she knocked the money out of my hand, and kicked me till I was black and blue. I had not the slightest idea that I had told a falsehood; I should not have done it if I had. She told me she had lost the ticket, and I was willing to pay her the money for it.


23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-796
VerdictNot Guilty > directed

Related Material

796. HENRY BANMAN (28), was indicted for forging and uttering an order for the payment of 2s., with intent to defraud.

MR. SLEIGH conducted the Prosecution.

THE COURT considered that the document was neither an order or a warrant, and directed the Jury to find the prisoner


23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-797
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

Related Material

797. HENRY BANMAN was again indicted for unlawfully attempting and endeavouring to obtain from George Dodshon the sum of 2s., with intent to defraud.

GEORGE DODSHON . I live at 44, Bread-street, St. James's, and am secretary to the West-end Bootmakers Society—we give relief to necessitous persons—on Saturday night, 31st of last month, about half-past 9, the prisoner called upon me, in Portland-street, and presented me this card, upon which I should have given him 2s.—he said he had travelled up and he was sore footed—I looked at the card and saw the signature was not good, and I then asked him to come home with me—he went home with me, and I asked him to come down to the club-house—I there compared the signatures, and then said I should give him in charge for attempting to receive money from me under false pretences—he said it was a genuine thing, it was right, and called me several names for trying to stop him—if that signature had been in my judgment genuine, I should have parted with 2s., on the faith of it.

WILLIAM PALMER . I live at No. 3, William-street, Reading, and am a shoemaker—I am also secretary to the boot maker's society in that place—the signature on this card of Palmer is not mine, or did I give any person authority to make that signature—I relieved this same man, in the name of Foster, on 28th August—the name of Banman on the card is not written by me or by my authority—there is none of my writing here—I wrote on another card for the prisoner in the name of Foster.

Prisoner. Q. What benefit should I receive from that? A. 2s. you would not be entitled to relief without my signature in the name of Banman when you passed it by as Foster—I do not see that my name makes it any better or any worse.

COURT. Q. If there had been the genuine signature of any person would have received relief? A. Provided it was a secretary and he told the way he had come into the town—it would be necessary to have my signature if he came from Reading.

GEORGE GILLETT (Policeman, C 214). I took the prisoner into custody in consequence of Mr. Dodshon's information—I charged him with trying to obtain money from Mr. Dodshon by a false card—he said, "Very well, I will go with you to the station"—I searched him and found another card on him (produced)—this is in the name of George Peel—it is a card of the same society, but another branch.

Prisoner's Defence. As regards the forged name, the president himself acknowledges that the name has no weight on the card; it is the clear card that entitles you to relief; the president from the town that you leave signs his name; then why should I commit a forgery without a motive. I only got 4s. 9d., and the distance I tramped was 400 miles; when I got to Hammersmith I had not a halfpenny in the world; I there met with a man named Banman and he gave me the card, and I did not know I was wrong in presenting it. I defy all the societies in the world to bring anything against my character.


OLD COURT, Friday, September 27th, 1861.


Before Mr. Justice Bytes.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-798
VerdictGuilty > with recommendation

Related Material

798. WILLIAM MALONEY (40), was indicted for the wilful murder of Mary Maloney; he was also charged upon the Coroner's Inquisition with the like murder.

MESSRS CLERK and ORRIDGE conducted the Prosecution.

SARAH HOWE . I am the wife of William Howe, a grocer and cheese-monger, of 76, Great Peter-street, Westminster—that is near Legg-court where the deceased and the prisoner lived; the shop is on one side and Legg-court on the other—on 2d September, a few minutes before 12 in the day, Mrs. Maloney, the deceased, came to our shop about some bacon—she appeared then to be in perfectly good health and perfectly sober.

COURT. Q. Did she buy some bacon? A. Yes, threepenny worth.

ELIZA DUCKLOW . I live with my father, at No. 3, Legg-court—the prisoner and his wife lived at No. 2; that is not next door to us, there are two or three are two or three Nos. 2 and two or three Nos. 3 in that court—I live on the same side of the court as the prisoner, four doors off—the prisoner occupied the ground floor in one of the Nos. 2—a little after 12 o'clock on Monday 2d September, I was coming up the court—I know it was not more than a quarter after 12—I saw Mrs. Maloney and spoke to her—she was going towards her own house, and I was going to my house; I met her at the bottom of the court, that is the Peter-street way; she was coming out of Peter-street—she was carrying a quart of beer in a can—she went to her house—two or three minutes afterwards my attention was called by my

little brother—I went into the court—I saw two or three persons in the court, and I noticed Mr. Maloney moreover than anybody—there was his niece and two or three more in the court—they were near him, a little further up—the prisoner was between the window and door of his own house; his back was against the wall—he was looking at the sleeve of his frock—he had a white slop on—there was a little blood on the wrist of his sleeve—I observed that at the time—the other persons were a door or two from him at the time—he was not speaking to anybody when I first saw him—I went right to the door of his house, and I saw his little girl right opposite the door, crying, out in the court—I believe she is about seven years old—I looked in the passage and saw some blood there; I had no boots on and I did not like to cross it; I was in a fair of slippers, I had been cleaning—it was a pool of blood—I did not see into the room from where I was standing—I ran back to my father and told him—he was half-way up the court, and he turned back again—I then came back to the house and went into the room; the door was open; it was a little way open the first tine I got to the passage—the street door is always open—the prisoner was still standing outside—by the time I got back with my father two or three persons made an alarm—when I went into the room the first thing I saw was three young men coming out, working young men; they seemed as if they bad been to look in at the door—I went into the room and Bridget Casey and her sister soon followed after me, and we could not push the door near half-way open, as Mrs. Maloney's feet were against the door—Mrs. Maloney was alive then; she was not quite dead, she could not speak—her feet were towards the door and she was on her elbow, and she gradually sunk down to the ground and put her hand to her head—that was not the first time I saw her; I looked in at the window first, before I went into the passage, before I ran back to my father—the window was closed; I looked through it and saw Mrs. Maloney just in the same position, on her elbow—I did not see her move at all till I went into the room—she was in the same position, on her elbow, when I went into the room, as I had seen her when I looked in at the window—when I went into the room I saw her on her elbow, and she gradually sunk down and put her hand to her head and lifted her eyes towards the ceiling; and the two Caseys ran in, and they began to cry and clap their hands—they are both young women—they came up the court and went into the passage; one was sitting on the stairs in the passage and the other was calling Mrs. Maloney—they had not been into the room before they began to cry—I spoke to the prisoner first outside the door, before I went in; when I looked through the window and saw the deceased on her elbow—I said to him, "Your wife is dead, Mr. Maloney, how was it done?" and he said, "She done it herself"—that was when I first looked in at the window—I had no more conversation with him at that time—when I went into the room the prisoner was still outside the door—I did not go out and speak to him then, he came into the room while I was there—there were several persons in the room at that time; he came in first, I think, but I am not sure, I don't know, I was so much confused, but a great many persons came into the room—I said nothing more to the prisoner than I have stated—I was there when the constable came—I do not know about the prisoner being sober at the time, but I know Mrs. Maloney was sober when I spoke to her—they had lived in the court before we came there—we have been there nine months.

Cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH. Q. You have not remembered all that he said when you spoke to him, have you; he said, "She done it herself; he

said something more than that, did he not? A. He only repeated, "she done it herself" three times—he said that he was having his dinner and cutting a potato in four, and put the knife by his side—that was after the doctor came in—he did not say it outside the door, he said it before he was removed in custody—he said, "I was having my dinner and cutting a potato in four, and I put the knife down by the side of me and she took it up and done it herself."

CATHERINE CASEY . I live at 7, Duck-court, Great Peter-street, Westminster—on 2d September, about 10 minutes before 12, I saw Mrs. Maloney—I asked her how she was—she said quite well—I asked how her children were—she said they were quite well; and I asked how her husband was—I asked her where she was going; and she said she was going to get her husband's dinner—she was quite sober—about 10 minutes past 12, from something that was said to me, I went into the court—I saw the prisoner standing outside his own door with his hands behind him—I did not say anything to him—I went into the room to Mrs. Maloney, and she was quite dead on the floor—she was lying with her hand on her forehead, like that, and this hand (the left) on her chest—I came outside, and said to the prisoner, "Mr. Maloney, your wife is dead"—he said, "Yes, I knew that my wife was dead about 10 minutes"—I did not hear him call for the doctor; I came down the court then and sent a young boy for the doctor—that is all I know about it—I did not hear the prisoner say anything about the doctor.

Cross-examined. Q. Is it not the habit among persons of your country, when eating potatoes, to cut up the potatoe and put the knife on the table, and eat the potatoe with their fingers? A. Yes—I saw the knife found—it was the knife that the prisoner was in the habit of using for the purpose of his dinner; it was found close by the table at which he had been having his dinner—it was behind a tea tray, as if it had fallen down.

CONELIUS O'CONNOR . I am a labouring man—on 2d September I was at work at the new house of the Duke of Buccleugh—the prisoner was working with me that morning—I had gone to work along with him in the morning—we had had two pots of beer among four of us before we went to work that morning, about half-past 7 o'clock—we began work at—the prisoner was one of the four that partook of the beer, and the others were two men that we met in the street—we had a pint of beer each at 10 o'clock, and half a quartern of rum each about half-past 8, just as we were going to work—the prisoner had a pint of beer along with me at 10 o'clock, we had a pint apiece—at 12 o'clock we left work to go home to our dinner—the prisoner came with me as far as the bottom of Victoria-street, and he turned off from me there to go to his dinner—before we got to Victoria-street, as we went I along Parliament street, we had a pot of beer between three of us, the prisoner was one of them; that was at the Red Lion, in Parliament-street—I separated from him at the bottom of Victoria-street—he said to me, "Don't you come away from home before I call for you; I shall not be long having my dinner, and we will have a pot of beer before we go back to work; don't you start away from your home till I call for you"—the prisoner was quite sober at this time—I live in Artillery-square, Strutton-ground—that is about two or three minutes walk from Legg-court where the prisoner lives—while I was at my dinner my boy came in and called me, and I went at once from my place to Legg-court—there were not a good many persons collected in the court when I got there; I did not see above two or three—the prisoner was in the house when I got there

—I went into his room on the ground-floor—to the best of my belief the two sisters, the Caseys, were in the room when I went in—I cannot recollect whether there were any more persons there—the deceased was lying with her feet against the door, and her head towards the fire-place—she was dead at that time—the prisoner was sitting in a chair against the fire-place—the fire-place is opposite the door—he was crying when I went in, and when he saw me he said, "Mary has killed herself at last"—I observed a knife on the table when I went in—I knew that knife—I have seen the prisoner have it before (the knife was here produced, it was a clasp-knife)—the corner of the table comes close to the door—when you come in at the door you come immediately on the table—it is close against the door, and the knife was on the table—I put my hand to the knife, like that (touching it) and I could not say whether the knife dropped off the table or no—it was at the corner of the table, next to the door or—whether it dropped off the table is I came in I could not say—I did not do anything to it—I did not see the knife afterwards till I saw it at the station—this is the knife—I remained there until Mr. Payne, the doctor, came—he came, I dare say, in two or three minutes after I got there—the prisoner did not say any more to me before the doctor came—I did not notice the tea-tray when I went into the room—when the doctor came I assisted him, with one of the women, the Caseys, to raise the deceased and put her on the bed—the prisoner did not help us—he was sitting in the chair crying—I could not say whether the body of the deceased was moved at all after I went in and before the doctor came—I did not move it, nor see anybody move it before the doctor came and lifted her up—I was with them the day before, Sunday, 1st September, part of the day—there was some drinking going on at Maloney's on the Sunday—there was a good many in and out—they had about five gallons of beer, I think—I dare say they all bad a part of it—I did not see that either the prisoner or his wife were the worse for drink that day when I parted with them—I got there between 2 and 3 o'clock—I staid there till about 8 o'clock at night—as far as I could see they were sober when I went away, and on good terms with each other—I could see no difference in them whatever.

Cross-examined. Q. It is a very small room I believe? A. Not very large—I did not observe a tea-tray in the room—there was a cupboard at the farther end of the table—when I went into the room and saw the knife it was partly off the table; about an inch of it projected over the table—I did not say that I knocked against the table as I was pasting; the door coming so close to the table I put my hand to the knife to save it, for fear I might knock it off the table, and I could not say whether it was thrown off the table or no—it is a square table.

MR. CLERK. Q. Could you say whether you pushed the knife, with your hand with sufficient force to send it to the other end of the table? A. Well, that I could not say—I shoved the knife—I could not may whether I shoved it to that end of the table or no.

COURT. Q. Was there a cloth on the table? A. No; not as I could see—the room door opens inwards—when the door is open there is not much distance between the table and the door—the point of the knife was lying on the table, and the handle projected over the table towards the door.

SAMUEL GORDON (Policeman, B 241). On 2d September, I went to the prisoner's house in Legg-court, about twenty minutes after 12 o'clock—I met Mr. Payne, the doctor, at the door—I went into the room and saw the woman lying on the bed dead, and a large pool of blood in the middle of the

room—I examined her—I saw a great deal of blood on the dress—I searched the room and found this knife sticking in the boards of the floor behind the tea-tray—I did not say anything to the prisoner before I began the search—I did not ask him anything about how it was done—the knife was sticking quite upright in the boards—the tea-tray stood against some shelve that had been formerly a cupboard, only the door was broken away, and the tea-tray was leaning against it, something like a door to the cupboard—I saw a table in the room; I dare say that might be a couple of feet from where the tea-tray stood—there was just room for a chair to stand between the table and the tea-tray—there was a chair there—the tray was leaning back against the shelves in a sloping direction.

Cross-examined. Q. The tea-tray was leaning against a sort of cupboard without doors, was it not? A. Yes; there were a great many persons in the room when I went in, and a great deal of confusion—I did not ask the prisoner how it happened.

COURT. Q. Was the table one upon castors, or a large heavy deal table? A. It was a small deal table, about three feet long, and about two feet bread—it was an old one; the narrow end of it was towards the door—there was a shelf above the top of the tea-tray—the extreme top of the tray was not leaning against anything; it was leaning against a shelf—the bottom of the tray was further into the room than the top—I found the knife behind the tray, sticking in the floor.

GEORGE MAXTEAD (Policeman, B 77). I went to the house, No. 2 Leg-court; I saw the knife found—I was there after Gordon—before the knife was found, I said, "Is there any witness here?"—there were several females in the room—the witness Ducklow said, "Yes; I saw her fall"—I said, "Where is the Knife?"—Ducklow made no answer, but the prisoner said, "She did it herself, and threw the knife away"—the prisoner was then sitting on a chair between the window and the fire-place—the back of the chair was against a shelf, and on the right-hand side; the chair was not more than a foot, or a foot and a half from the table—I saw the tea-board behind which Gordon found the knife—the chair was close to that tea-board—there was a space between the chair and the fire-place in which the tea-board stood—it was leaning against a shelf—the back of the chair must have been close to the shelf against which the tea-tray was leaning—the body of the deceased had been put on the bed previous to my coming, and the doctor was gone when I got there.

COURT. Q. In which direction was the chair; which way was the prisoner looking? A. Towards the door—the front of the chair was towards the table—the tea-tray was on his right side.

ARTHUR MASON (Police-sergeant, B 15). On Tuesday, 2d September, I went to No. 2, Legg-court—I went into the room and saw the prisoner sitting down on a chair, and the body of the deceased lying on the bed—I said to the prisoner, "How was this done?"—he said, "She done it herself; I know nothing about it"—I cautioned him, and told him he was not obliged to say anything unless he thought proper, and whatever he did say might be used as evidence against him—he then said, "I was sitting down having my dinner—I had a few words with my wife yesterday about getting drunk—I sent my little girl out for some oats for the rabbit—I was eating bread and butter and potatoes—when I had done, I laid my knife down on the table, she picked it up and done it herself, and threw the knife away" I then said, "Who put her on the bed?"—he said, "I don't know—I asked whether he assisted—he said he did not—I examined his hands—I

found blood on both of them, more on the right than on the left; also on his smock-slop, on the right sleeve, and on his trousers, and spots of blood on his shirt—I told him I should take him into custody for the murder of his wife, and I did so—at the station sergeant Cousin's said, "He has got blood on the inside of the legs of his trousers"—the prisoner said, "Yes; if either of ye had been there ye would have had the same"—he also said that his wife had threatened to do it a great number of times—I saw a table in the room, it was a very small one, about two feet six, I think—I have here the clothes that the prisoner was wearing at the time—this is the slop-frock (producing it) there is blood on the right arm.

WILLIAM TAYLOR . I am chief clerk at the West minster Police Court—I was on duty there when the prisoner was under examination—while the witnesses were being examined the prisoner requested that he might make a statement—I took down in writing the statement that he then made as he gave it—I have made a transcript of it, which I can check by the original—(Read: "The prisoner having requested to be allowed to speak, and being told that he may speak if he wishes, but that he is not called upon to-do so says, 'I worked at the Duke of Buccleugb's till 12 o'clock, and I could not get from there to Peter-street till a quarter or twenty minutes past 12. My wife had my dinner for me, potatoes and bacon. She had a drop taken on the Sunday night, but I did not say anything, to her then. As she was sober and I was sober, I thought it a good time to speak to her, and I said, 'It is fitter for you to look to your children than to drink away my money. 'I had my knife to eat my dinner. It was by my side, and she caught it up and did it herself, and flung the knife away, and said, 'It is done now; we will not have any more jaw.' I tried to stop the blood. She fell on the floor, and died immediately. I goes to the door and sings out,' Will any one go for the doctor,' and that is how the people got round. I have no more to say. Who brought the doctor I don't know.")—The first examination before the Magistrate was on Monday, 2d September, about half-past 1 or 2 o'clock.

GEORGE BURTON PAYNE . I am a surgeon, residing at Denbigh-street, Pimilico—I am also a Doctor of Medicine—about the middle of the day, a little after 12 o'clock, on Monday, 2d September, I was called to a house in Legg-court—a young man, seventeen or eighteen years of age, came for me—I do not know his name—I recognised him here yesterday—I went into the room on the ground-floor—there were a good many persons in the room, quite a dozen, I should say—it is a very small room; I heard it stated as nine feet by ten, and t have no doubt that is correct—I did not measure it myself—I judge it to be about that—as I entered the door there was a table; the door just escaped the end of the table—I saw the body of the deceased lying on the floor when I entered the room; indeed I had some difficulty in passing into the room—the feet of the deceased were against the door, so that I had to push a little on one side to enter the room—the body was lying across the room—the table was between the lady and the window—her feet were towards the door, and her head towards the fireplace—her feet were at the corner of the table—the door opened inwards—the hinges of the door were towards the bedstead—as the door opened it would go against her feet—the fire-place was facing the door—her head was within, probably, eighteen inches of the fire-place; perhaps it might be two feet—her body nearly covered the whole floor—the prisoner was among the other persons there when I went in—I could not speak to where he was—before I removed the body from the floor I observed a wound on the left side, of

the neck—it was half way between the perpendicular portion of the neck and the apex of the shoulder on the left side (pointing out its position on his own person)—it was nearer the shoulder than the base of the neck, just over the collar bone—I subsequently made a doable post mortem examination—finding she was dead, I asked assistance to raise the body on to the bed—I called on the prisoner to assist me; he was one man present among others—I did not know that there was any connexion between them at that time—I said, "Just assist me with her on to the bed,' and he objected—he said, "No, I won't"—O'Connor and a woman came forward and assisted me—the first examination I made was a superficial or external examination—I found the wound measured exactly three-quarters of an inch—the direction of it was from the apex of the shoulder, towards the neck—it was a logitudinal wound, not a transverse one, along the line of the collar bone—the weapon must have been in a longitudinal position when it inflicted the wound, not held transversely—it did not penetrate the shoulder; it penetrated the cavity of the chest—the wound descended almost perpendicularly downwards—the probe yielded a measurement of an inch and a quarter in depth, but upon my second examination, when I made the post mortem examination from within, I found that the wound had penetrated the cavity of the chest; upon my first examination I was unable to state that—I cannot say to what depth the weapon had penetrated the chest, because upon penetrating the cavity it might have gone the whole length—I should say the whole depth of the solid structures from without inwards would not measure more than an inch and a half, scarcely that—when you had passed through that inch and a half you would get to the cavity of the chest—it had to pass through the integuments, the cellular tissue, and the pleura, which is included in the cavity at that point—the knife had divided the subclavian artery which crosses that particular spot—it is immediately underneath the integuments at the particular point where it was divided—I have seen the knife produced—I should say that knife would cause the wound I saw—it was placed in my hand for the purpose of ascertaining that fact, and I found that it corresponded exactly with the external and internal appearances—all I can say is that such a knife would have done it, and this knife corresponded with the wound—it might be done with a knife of that shape and size—I did not see the knife the day I went to the house—I saw it afterwards at the police-court; I think on the succeeding day, I am not quite sure—it is a sharp knife.

Q. Would it require any force to inflict the wound you saw? A. Yes; it would require a very sharp blow—the wound was three-quarters of an inch longitudinally—the knife is scarcely as much as that—I have no doubt that in withdrawing the weapon from the wound it must have been with drawn in the same direction—when I had seen the nature of the wound I spoke to the prisoner—I believe I first asked if the deceased was his wife—he said, "Yes"—I then said, "How did it happen; have you been quarreling?"—he said, "No; I had come in to my dinner, and had taken my knife and placed it beside my plate, when she took it up and stabbed herself"—I understood him to say he had taken his "penknife," but no doubt it was his "pocket-knife"—the wound was not a transverse one—it was in the direction of the apex of the shoulder—there was nothing to indicate whether the edge of the wound was towards the shoulder end of the apex or towards the throat—when the prisoner told me about her having inflicted the wound herself with the knife, I said, "Where is the knife?"—he said, "After she had done it, she threw it away somewhere about the room."

Q. Looking at the wound as you subsequently ascertained it to be upon our post mortem examination, its position and direction, was it a wound which in your opinion the deceased could have inflicted upon herself? A. Oh, certainly, she might do so—in order to inflict it herself the blow must have been perpendicular; in this manner (describing it to the Jury)—on my second post mortem, examination I found that it had a slight bending backwards, that is to say the lips of the wound externally and internally did not correspond exactly—it was not precisely vertical—it had an oblique direction, the point going towards the back—I mean the wound within the chest did not exactly correspond with that on the surface.

Cross-examined. Q. I believe when you went in, the room was packed with people? A. It was quite full—before I could do anything I had to insist upon many persons leaving—when I asked the prisoner to assist me in lifting the deceased his words may have been, "I can't"—my impression is that it was "I won't," but it did not convey to me any idea of refusal any more than a repugnance—there is among persons in the lower class a repugnance to touch a dead body—I believe others did the same thing.

COURT. Q. You say she certainly might have inflicted this wound upon herself? A. Yes—I have seen very many suicidal wounds, and wounds that have not been so.

Q. Whatever is possible, in your judgment was it probably a suicidal wound or not? A. I looked upon it at my first impression.----

Q. Answer the question distinctly, if you can; in your judgment was it probably a suicidal wound or not, judging from the wound only, or cannot you say? A. I scarcely apprehend the force of your lordship's inquiry.

Q. One side contend that it was a wound inflicted by the deceased herself which I call a suicidal wound; the other side contend that it was inflicted by the prisoner; whether it were the one or the other is a matter of fact, bat it is also to some extent, as it seems to me, a matter of science; you are a scientific man, and I ask you from your observation of the wound, was it in your judgment probably, without speaking certainly, a self-inflicted wound or not? A. Certainly it is probable.

Q. Probable that it was a self-inflicted wound? A. I think so.

JOSEPH SAUNDERS . I am a labouring man, and live at 42, Castle-end, Westminster—I have been living there three weeks—I am working for Mr. Hill—on 2d September, I was living in Brunswick-street, Kuston-road, St. Pancras—I left my home that morning about 5 o'clock—I went to Mr. Hills, in Millbank-street—Mr. Calder had sent me a letter on the Saturday previous to that that I should get some work there—I went with' a letter from Mr. Calder to Mr. Hills—I went to Mr. Hills at 6 o'clock on the Monday morning—I saw him—when I left Mr. Hills' I went to Mr. Calder's—he lives at the Royal Mews, in Pimilico—he is employed there as a groom—I got there about 7 o'clock—in the morning of that day I went down to Westminster; I arrived in Westminster about 11 o'clock—I went into Legg-court that morning—I had never been there before—I cannot exactly mind the time to a few minutes that I went there, but it was a little past 12—I walked up Legg-court and went into a house; the street door was open—I went in and looked in the parlour door—that door was open, and I saw a roan strike something, appearingly a knife, into a woman's neck—the man was standing with his back towards me, rather, and the woman was in front of him—she was leaning like to one side when I saw the blow struck; leaning a little on one side—I did not stop to see anything else.

COURT. Q. Just describe with your hand in what way it appeared to you the blow was struck by the man? A. That way (making a thrust)—the

man was standing upright at the time—the woman was just his arms-length from him.

MR. CLERK. Q. What did you do when you saw this blow struck? A. I returned and went out of the door again directly—I went down the court and stopped at the end of the court—I saw two or three persons as I was passing out of the court, some where about half way after I had left the house, as I was coming out of the court back again—I did not go any further up the court—I returned back towards the end that I went in—I saw two or three persons as I was going up in that direction—I won't be certain how many it was, and I said there was murder in one of the houses—I said that as I was passing—I went down to the end of the court and stood there—I do not know Peter-street now—I have not been there since, only at the inquest—I saw a policeman afterwards go into the court, and I saw the prisoner brought out at the end of the court—I was standing at the end of the court when he was brought out—I could not see from where I was standing from what house he was brought, there were too many people in the court—when I saw the man strike the blow I saw that he had a slop on.

COURT Q. Have you been in Court to day; have you heard the other witnesses examined? A. No; not till just now when I was called in.

MR. CLERK. Q. Did you see the prisoner taken away by the police? A. Yes—I saw a little girl also—she was taken away by one of the policemen—I had never seen the prisoner before, or the woman who was struck.

Cross-examined. Q. You are a stranger entirely to that part of the town? A. Yes, to Westminster.

Q. Having seen this deed done, you did not rush in and attempt to give any assistance, or anything of that kind? A. No—after leaving the court I did nut go to the police-station, or follow with the constables when I saw the prisoner in custody—I was seeking employment at the time—Mr. Hills promised me some if I came on Wednesday—I was seeking for lodging—Mr. Hills told me if I would come on Wednesday he would employ me—this was on Monday, and I was seeking for rooms that day, being at liberty.

Q. Then upon seeing the man taken away whom you had yourself seen commit this dreadful act, you did not think it was any part of your duty to accompany the officers to the police-station where he was taken, or to say one word to them? A. Well, I did not—I was quite confused, and thought I might as well get out of it, as I was a stranger about there—I thought it was hardly worth my while to have anything to do with it—I thought the women might speak to something.

Q. You see a man deliberately murder a woman and do not think it worth while to give any information, or proceed to the station; is that what you mean? A. Well, I did not think of it at the time; I was frightened; I can hardly tell you how I felt about it—I got home about 8 o'clock that evening—I did not want particularly to find my way home—I was still seeking for lodgings—after seeing this done I still went on seeking for lodgings—I had been out of employment four weeks when this occurred—the last wages I received was 16s. a week and my two rooms to live in—I had not been all the four weeks seeking employment—I went into a little shop, but did not do anything in it—that was in Brunswick-street—I was living in that little shop on this Monday—I had not paid the rent—I owed two weeks rent—the rent was 6s. a week—I had not paid it because I had not the money.

Q. Where did you first go after you had been, as you tell us, in this court

and had seen this act? A. Being a stranger there I cannot tell you what streets I went into—I don't know the streets—I went into a good many little streets and courts—I went into a good many houses a short time afterwards.

Q. Did you go into an eating-house immediately afterwards, in Great Peter-street, and sit down and have some pudding? A. Well, I did go in and hive two pennyworth, but I did not sit down—I might be there three or four minutes—the prisoner was not brought by in custody at the time I was in the eating-house having my pudding; he was taken by before I came there; he was taken by while I was standing at the court—I did not follow him—he was gone a good bit Before I came to the eating-house—I cannot tell you exactly how long—it was a little time after he had been taken by the police that I went into the eating-house, I cannot say how long—(A person named Jane Crowe was here called in)—I cannot tell you whether that is the person of the eating-house—I have not seen the woman since, nor yet before—I shan't say that it is not the person, and I shan't say it is—I do not recollect the woman—I was not in that eating-house for upwards of half-an-hour; I will swear that—I was there about two or three minutes, or three or four minutes, somewhere about that time; I can't say exactly to a minute—I will swear I was not there half-an-hour, nor twenty minutes, nor ten minutes—it might be five minutes, but not any longer, I can't say to a minute—I first had one pennyworth of pudding and then I had another pennyworth.

Q. While you were standing there, the prisoner having just previously been taken on to the station-house, did you make the remark that you had just heard that a woman had stabbed herself-down the court? A. No; nothing of the kind—I made no such remark in the eating house, I made no remark whatever about what I had just seen—there was no remark made, not a word—I did not say to the person who was serving me, that I had heard that a woman had just stabbed herself down the court—I was about the streets till 8 o'clock at night, and I never went anywhere to give any information as to what I had seen—I was at the Coroner's Inquest—I was not in court while the other witnesses were being examined; the others were examined before me; some were and some were not—some of them were examined before I went in—I cannot tell how many were examined after me—after I was examined I remained in the court while what there was left were examined—I cannot tell you where Bennett's-yard is—I was never there before nor yet since—I went to Bennett's yard that day—I found it out in the evening—before I came to London I was a farm labourer—I came to London about five years ago—I worked in a cow-shed when I first came to London—I worked there for two years and a half—before I went to the cow-shed I made application to be admitted into the police—I once had the charge of a person of unsound mind, a man I worked for—I went before the Magistrate first before I went before the Coroner—that was the first time I had ever been in a court of justice of any kind—the first day I went to the Magistrate I gave my evidence; there were no more witnesses examined that day, not after or before me, while I was there."

COURT Q. Before the Magistrate then you heard no witnesses examined? A. No; not when I gave my evidence.

MR. SLEIGH. Q. You were there on a second occasion? A. Mr. Calder took me there to give my evidence—I was there on two occasions—I was there three times, on the Tuesday, and another day I was called, and it was adjourned, and I went again—I was three times before the Magistrate

besides the times I was before the Coroner—I had nothing to drink at the eating-house—I had no other refreshment between then and the time I went borne at night; nothing at all, to eat or drink—I did not go into any other kind of house, not any eating-house nor yet a drinking-house—I went into places where I saw cards, to see if there were any lodgings—I asked the woman at the eating-house if she knew of any rooms—she asked me what rooms I wanted, and I told her some rooms for I had got a family—she said she had not got them to let, but she thought about taking a house—that was all that passed—I won't say ne'er a way, whether that was or was not the woman with whom I had the conversation—I shan't swear nothing at all about it, for I don't know the woman again.

(Upon MR. SLEIGH proceeding to question the witness with respect to what he had sworn before the Coroner, MR. CLERK objected, the depositions themselves being the proper evidence of what then occurred. MR. SLEIGH contended that he was entitled to adopt this course; there being a distinction between the Magistrates and Coroner's depositions, and those taken before the Magistrates were taken under the authority of another statute. MR. JUSTICE BYLES inquired of Mr. Clerk whether he had any authority to support hit objection. MR. CLERK. replied that he was not prepared with any direct authority, but relied upon the principle regulating the taking of depositions; the Coroner was bound by 7 Geo. it. to take depositions, and being taken, they, as with depositions taken before a Magistrate, constituted the proper evidence of what had then taken place.

MR. JUSTICE BYLES. Unless some authority is shown me to the contrary, I shall allow the question to be put; the rules laid down by the Judges apply only to examinations before a Magistrate, and it is a strong observation in favour of Mr. Sleigh's argument that, if it was intended that the same rules should apply to depositions taken before a Coroner, they would be mentioned; it better for me to express no opinion; unless Mr. clerk can show me any authority excluding it, I shall in favorem vitae, admit the evidence. MR. CLERK withdrew the objection.

Q. Have you not before to-day sworn that you never went into any place of refreshment until after you got to Bennett's yard? A. Yes, I have; but I do not call that scarcely any refreshment; a small bit like that; a small bit like that is scarce anything; about two or three ounces.

MR. CLERK. Q. When did you first learn that the woman, whom you saw struck, was dead? A. I heard the people saying in the street that the woman was dead; who the people were I cannot say; that was while I was outside the court standing in the street, before I went in to have the padding—I cannot tell you exactly how far the shop where I had the padding is from the entrance to the court; I could not find out the places now; I have never been there before nor yet since—I had seen Mr. Hills that morning and he had told me to come on the Wednesday—I had not looked about for lodgings in Westminster before Mr. Hills told me he would give me employment on the Wednesday—I went to Mr. Hills on the Wednesday morning, and I have been working for him a week and three days since.

COURT. Q. Then you are in an employment now, and have been over since? A. Yes—he did not like to take me on because of the people that dared my life about there, and he did not like to put me on till I could not get any other work—some of the people, the inhabitants, some of the prisoner's mates, or something, I can't say what they are, say that I am giving a false witness, and if they caught me about there they would do away with me, and I did not go on to work for Mr. Hills for a few days.

MR. CLERK. Q. It was on the Monday you saw what you tare told us? A. Yes—I went before the Magistrate on Tuesday afternoon and gave information—I had not read an account of what had taken place before the Magistrate the previous day before I went there.

COURT. Q. You had not read anything about it in any newspaper? A. No; not before I went before the Magistrate on the Tuesday.

MR. CLERK. Q. Had anybody told you what had taken place in the court, before you went there? A. No—my wife was the first person to whom I made any statement of what I had seen on that day; I made that statement to her about 8 o'clock on the Monday night, when I got home—my wife is outside—I also made a statement to Mr. Calder on the Tuesday afternoon, before I went to the police-court—he is a horse-keeper at the Royal-mews, the same person who gave me the letter to Mr. Hills—he went with me to the police-station on the Tuesday afternoon—I did not hear any witnesses examined on the Tuesday before the Magistrate before I gave my evidence.

COURT. Q. How old are you? A. About thirty or thirty-one, I don't bow exactly—I was married about two yean ago, to Isabella Thompson, at Bishopsgate—she was a laundress—I have two children of my own, and two she had by her first husband—she does not work as a laundress now, she has done nothing to get her living since she has been in London—she was a laundress at Walthamstow; she carried it on in her own hands—I come from Somersetshire; I was born at Ashington, near Yeovil—my father was a labourer—the first person I worked for was John Hook, when I was a little boy; my father worked for the same John Hook—I stopped at Ashington till I was grown up—I don't know how old I was when I left Ashington; I hare been away from there about fourteen years—I was somewhere about sixteen or seventeen when I left—I then went to Glastonbury; I went hay-making to a small farmer there—I staid there about six months for him; then I was living with another farmer, or two women who were carrying on a farm, and they got me a situation down at their sister's, at Westymoor—that is getting on down towards Highbridge, on the Great Western Railway—it is about seven or eight miles from Highbridge—I lived at Westymoor about two years and a half or three years, I can't say exactly—I then worked in the same village for John Hawker—I lived with him three years, labouring, just the same; I had to lire indoors and had so much a year and everything found me—after that I had another employment from another farmer in the same place, John Petch, and then I came to London—I was a labourer when I first came to London; I went to work for a Mr. Morgan, in Drammond-street, Euston-square—that is about five year ago—I worked for him three years, and then went to Mr. Richardson; I was with him and the man who bought the lease of his place about twelve months; that was at Walthamstow—the man who bought his lease was named Martin—then I went back to London, to Mr. Morgan's again—I have not worked anywhere since—I left Mr. Morgan's about five or six weeks ago—I am now in the employment of Mr. Hills—I can read a little, not very much—I can write well enough to write my name—I was not taught my catechism; all my lifetime I have never had much time for Church, my work has been as much as I could attend to—I have heard the Commandment, "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour"—I know that this man's life is in my hands.

Q. And do you still persist in saying that you saw what you have stated? A. Yes; I did see it—I should know the man again that I saw—that is the man there (pointing to the prisoner)—he had on a light slop.

JURY Q. Did you see the prisoner in the act of striking the blow or did you see the blow struck? A. I saw the blow struck—I saw the blood follow, on his right hand.

WILLIAM CALDER . I am employed at the Royal-mews, at Pimlico—I know the man, Joseph Saunders—on Tuesday, 3d September, I went with him to the police-court.

ELIZABETH WARK . I am the wife of William Ward, a mason, and reside at 77, Great Peter-street, Westminster—from the window of our house I can see right to the bottom of Legg-court—I remember this Monday, the day Mrs. Maloney died—I have seen the witness Joseph Saunders—I saw that man Monday, 2d September, at the bottom of Legg-court, a few minutes after 12 o'clock—he was going up the court, that is leaving Peter-street—there is only one entrance into the court—he was going from Peter-street up the court, on the right-hand side, in the middle of the court—the court is about four yards in width.

Cross-examined. Q. Did you see a crowd of persons just about the same time you say you saw this man? A. No; I saw no crowd—I live right opposite the court; I could see every person in the court and coming out—there were several persons in and out of the court—I saw the prisoner brought oat by the police—it was before that that I saw this man; about ten minutes before, as nigh as I could say, or from that to a quarter of an hour—at the time I saw him there were several other persons walking about—he was a perfect stranger to me—I was first examined about this before the Coroner; I had not previously been before the Magistrate or to the police-station—it was on the Thursday that I first said anything about seeing Saunders there.

COURT Q. How came you to say anything about having seen this man there? A. I told my next door neighbour—I had not at that time heard anything about a man haying seen it—I had not heard that anybody had seen it—I next saw Saunders on the jury—that was on the Friday; he was not pointed out to me by anybody, I pointed him out—I knew him again; I did not see him alone by himself—he was in the room behind us—there were about thirty persons in the room, as near as I could say; there, might be a few more—he was about three or four yards from where I stood when I saw him in the Court—I looked at him for a few minutes.

MR. SLEIGH. Q. When you saw this person on that occasion, was he walking down the court? A. Yes, away from where I was, going backways—I did not see him come out of the court again—I left my window to have my dinner—I was sitting at my window working, and saw the man walking down the court away from me—I could see his face as he was going up the court—he looked sideways each way, and I saw the side of his face—I only had a side view of his face—I rather think he had a cap on, not a bat, but I did not notice his cap or hat; I could not say which it was; I think it was a cap.

Q. Have you not already said that it was a black felt hat? A. I could not say whether it was a felt hat or a straw hat; I could not say which it was—I have said that he had on a black felt hat, but I said I was not sure.

COURT Q. You have said that he had on a black felt hat? A. Yes; to the best of my knowledge.

MR. SLEIGH. Q. But now, if I understand you rightly, you are not quite sure whether that is so or not? A. No.

MR. CLERK. Q. You say you saw his face as he looked right and left at he was going up the court? A. Yes; I noticed his whiskers most, they being a sandy colour—on the Thursday or Friday I want before the Coroner

—it was after I was examined that I looked out to see if I could wee the man that I had seen go down the court—it was in the second floor front room that I saw the man—I picked him oat—that was out the room where the jury was—it was at a public-house, opposite where I live—nobody pointed to the man before I selected him—he was sitting down—he had nothing on his head at that time.

COURT Q. At the time you went before the coroner, had you heard that the man was looking out for rooms? A. No; nobody had told me so—I had not heard anything at all about it.

ELIZABETH FLETCHER . I live at No. 3, Coburg-place, Horseferry-road, at the top of Marsharn-street—I know Legg-court, Peter-street—I was near Legg-court on Monday, 2d September—it might be from a quarter to twenty minutes past 12; it might be a few minutes either way; I don't know precisely—I was going along Great Peter-street—I was passing by Legg-court—I had not passed it—I saw a man coming up the court—I have seen that man here to-day—I never saw him after that day till I saw him at the police-station on Wednesday morning last—he came in to the station to come down to the court, and I told the policeman that was the man—he asked me if I knew him, and I said I did—(looking at Saunders) that is the man—he spoke to me as he came up the court and said, "There is murder down the court" (MR. SLEIGH objected to the reception of any statement made by Saunders to the witness; and MR. JUSTICE BYLES allowed the objection, but the witness had already uttered the expressions).

COURT Q. He said something to you? A. Yes.

Cross-examined. Q. Do I understand you rightly, that it was on the Wednesday of last week that you saw Saunders? A. This Wednesday; the day before yesterday—I was coming along Peter-street on the Monday; walking in Peter-street—I do not live in that neighbourhood; I lire in the Honeferry-road—when I went to the police-station on Wednesday, I had never been before the Magistrate or the Coroner—the police had found out that I was the person the man had spoken to, and came to me—they did not make any appointment for me to go to the station on the Wednesday for the purpose of seeing if I could identify the person—I was subpœnaed to come to this court on the Wednesday, and that was the first time I saw him—I had no opportunity before—I saw him at the Westminster police-station—I was waiting there to come down to the court with the police—I do not know who the officer was who communicated with me.

JAMES FORD . I am the lad that went for Dr. Payne on Monday, 2d September—Catherine Casey told me to go—I was in Peter-street at the time.

MR. SLEIGH to CORNELIUS O'CONNOR. Q. You had known the prisoner his wife for some time, was she not of a hasty and passionate temper? A. She was of a hasty temper.

JURY to DR. PAYNE. Q. If the woman had stabbed herself, Could she have spoken what the prisoner says she did speak afterwards? A. At the moment probably she might; at the very moment only; death would have been very very speedy.

COURT. Q. The expression in question is, "It is done now; we will not We any more jaw;" could she have uttered all that after the blow? A. She might have done so.

JURY Q. Only might have done so? A. She might have done so.

COURT. Q. You said something about "at the very moment?"—A. She must have done so almost at the instant that the wound was inflicted, the flow of blood would be so large and so instant upon cutting a large vessel like that. so near to the heart; still it is possible she might have done it.

The JURY, after having retired for a quarter of an hour, desired to desired to return verdict of

"GUILTY of killing his wife, but without premeditation."

MR. JUSTICE BYLES informed them that he could not receive a verdict in that form. After further retiring for seven minutes they found the prisoner

GUILTY.—Recommended to mercy by the Jury on the ground that they did not think he went home with malice to commit the deed, but that something must have arisen when he was there, to cause it.


NEW COURT.—Friday and Saturday, September 27th and 28th, 186l.


Before Mr. Justice Keating.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-799
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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799. JOHN DALES(40) , Unlawfully obtaining goods upon credit within four months of his bankruptcy, under colour and pretence of dealing in the ordinary course of trade. Other Counts, for obtaining other goods. Other Counts, for unlawfully conspiring with Benjamin Parker to obtain the said goods.

MR. SERGEANT BALLANTINE, with MESSRS. METCALFE and LEWIS, conducted the Prosecution.

THOMAS EDWARD STUBBS . I am one of the messengers of the Court of Bankruptcy—I produce the proceedings in the bankruptcy of John Dales of Broad-street, and of Dewsbury, in Yorkshire, amongst which is the petition for adjudication filed on 16th August, 1860—that adjudication of bankruptcy was by Commissioner Fontblanque on 17th August—the prisoner is the person who was so adjudged bankrupt—I also produce the proceedings in his former bankruptcy—the date of the petition of adjudication, is 4th November, 1857, and the adjudication 14th November of the same year—I have the adjudication before me, and the balance sheet in that bankruptcy—the balance sheet is headed 1st January, 1856, to 17th March, 1858—it was filed on 27th September, 1858—I do not know the prisoner's writing—he is the person who was adjudicated bankrupt under that bankruptcy—the amount is 242,245l. 10s. 7d. debts and liabilities; the amount of debts under the present bankruptcy is not cast up—I shall hare to give you the amounts separately—the Mercantile Discount, Company, and other creditors, is 1,730l. 9s. 3d.

Cross-examined by MR. TAYLOR. Q. You gave us the amount of the debts in the present bankruptcy, but you did not give the amount of the credits; please to give that? A. Good debts, 236l. 11s. 4d.—the amount of the bonds of the Brookville Railway Company is 47,306l.—Mr. Stansfeld is the proper person to answer you these questions—it is added up; each side of the page balances—I could probably tell you the amount of the credits, if Mr. Stansfeld's account was received—the property in the bands of the creditors fully secured is 139,027l. 10s. 10d.—here is another item, Canada bonds and stock held by creditors, 37,803l.—the bankrupt obtained an immediate first class certificate—this was not the bankruptcy of John Dalai, but of John and Benjamin Dales, contractors and builders of 20, Great George-street, Pimlico, Louth, Lincolnshire, and Canada, West.

MR. METCALFE. Q. Is what you have been speaking of, the statement made by the prisoner himself on on balance sheet? A. Yes—it appears here that Mr. Stansfield received 486l. 11s. 7d. on the first estate—those art the whole receipts received by the assign at any time, as far as I know—there was a second audit.

MR. TAYLOR. Q. What is the cause of bankruptcy stated in the first bankruptcy? A. It is not usual to state that, it is in a private arrangement which he had previously—I will give you that—he says that the cause of his not being able to meet his engagements is the non-payment of money on contracts, and his inability to convert into money, securities of the American Government—I have a petition in the second bankruptcy (produced) by Mr. Woodhouse, and here is the order of the Court annulling: "It is ordered that the adjudication of bankruptcy be annulled, on account of the insufficiency of the act of bankruptcy, and that the petition be dismissed"—there was also another petition on which the adjudication was made.

JOSEPH HALL . I am the attesting witness to this deed of assignment (produced) made by the defendant on 10th August, 1860—Thompson and Woodhouse are trustees for the rest of the creditors—it assigns to them all the leasehold estates and trade books, debts, personal estate, and everything.

Cross-examined. Q. From whom did you receive instructions to prepare that? A. From Messrs. Thompson and Woodhouse—I had been doing business with them previously as their attorney—Thompson and Woodhouse, and the prisoner had a meeting at my office; they came together—I do not think it was then explained that this was executed to save Thompson and Woodhouse from bankruptcy—I do not think there was any such understanding.

EDWARD STENHOUSE . I knew the defendant before his bankruptcy—he was carrying on trade as a merchant; I understand at Gresham-house, Old Broad-street—he was sending us goods, trading—he was trading in that way for six months before the bankruptcy.

WILLIAM VIVIAN . I carry on a commission business. at 51, Bow-lane, London—I lodged a petition against the defendant in the Court of Bankruptcy—he was at that time indebted to me 168l. 10s. 4d.—I filed the petition in July or August—I lodged it on the date which it bears, 16th August—before that time I had been pressing the defendant several times—I think I first pressed him in January or before then, and in February there was a bill which was paid without any pressure being used—and the end of April one was not paid without pressure, and the one now has not been paid at all.

Cross-examined. Q. Up to that time were you having transactions with him? A. No—it was closed long before then—I had no goods whatever of him just before his bankruptcy—while I was making alterations on my premises there were some few goods of his there, perhaps 50l. worth—there was not 300l. worth so late as that—I do not think I had any, but there might he a bale or two—there was not 300l. worth, not half or a quarter of 300l. worth—I cannot speak from memory whether those goods were damaged in some way, or whether I required the bankrupt to take them back—there was not a dispute between us at the time of the alteration of toy premises—it was before that, and Mr. Dales settled with me for that.

COURT. Q. When were your premises altered? A. I do not know what the Counsel alludes to—I do not know that I have altered them—I have taken a place next door.

MR. TAYLOR. Q. Did not you have some alteration of your premises at which the bankrupt's goods got damaged? A. No; I have not made any alteration, except building a new warehouse, which is since the bankruptcy.

COURT. Q. During the time you were pressing him, were those goods of his in your possession? A. Not upon this bill that I have made him bankrupt upon—there were no goods against that bill.

SAMUEL WOODHOUSE . I live at 87, Green-lane, Small Heath, Birmingham.—prior to August, 1860, I carried on business at Birmingham as a warehouseman, in partnership with James and John Thompson, under the firm of

Thompson and Woodhouse—we became acquainted with the prisoner in December, 1859—he was then carrying on business at 11 and 12, Gresham-house, Old Broad-street—we supplied goods to him in December that year to a small amount—we had a conversation with him just before we supplied him with the first goods, but we received a large order in December which we did not complete till January—before we executed it I saw him at his office in Gresham-house in January, 1860, and told him I had been to Mr. Beattie of the Union Bank, to whom he referred us when he gave us the order—he said that he had a large interest in the Brockville and Ottawa Railway, to the extent of 300,000l.—I told him that I had been to Mr. Beattie, and told him the conversation I had had with him, that he believed him to be a highly respectable man, who had contracts under Government to the extent of 80,000l. per annum, and that he possessed a very valuable patent for deodorizing sewage matter, and in addition to that he owned a large interest in Canadian Railways—Dales said that that was correct, and that he had 300,000l. in the Brockville and Ottawa Railway Company—the order was for white calicoes and goods of that description to the amount of 1,400l. or 1,500l. or thereabouts, which he wanted for shipping—in consequence of what Mr. Beattie said, and of what Mr. Dales afterwards said, we supplied the goods in January and between then and May, 1860, we supplied further goods to a considerable amount to the prisoner—between January and May we supplied about 5,000l. worth of goods, and between 21st May, 1860, and 16th August we supplied him with goods to the amount of about 13,150l.—the quantity we supplied to him in July alone was 11,905l. 0s. 5d.; on the 25th July the amount was 1,283l. 3s. 2d. on 27th, 2,042 14s. 7d.—the last date of goods supplied before the bankruptcy was 31st July, 1,284l. 13s. 11d.—the orders on which the supply in July was made, were given part in June and part in July, shortly before the goods were sent—between the conversations we had in January, and supplying the last order, I had many conversations with the bankrupt about the supply of goods, the purport of them was confirming what he had previously stated; he repeated what he had said before—he continually spoke about the Canadian Railway—the conversations were all about the non-arrival of the Canadian bonds—he said that the reason the bonds bad not arrived in this country was that there was a new issue, which was occasioned by the principalities through which the line passed becoming security and guaranteeing 6l. per cent. upon them in this country—he said in July that he believed they were then on their way, and at the end of July sent us one of them—he did not specify any amount which were then on their way; but at one time he said that the 300,000l. he was entitled to were coming over—he sent one bond, the object of which was to convince as that they had commenced arriving, with a view that we should present it at our bankers and see if they would advance any sum upon them on their arrival—that was at the latter end of July or 1st August, as far as my recollection serves—he did not say on any other occasion besides that I hare mentioned that he wanted the goods for shipping—when I went to his office I saw Brockville and Ottawa Railway Company painted on the glass on the door—Parker was almost invariably present in the office—he sometimes gave was orders for the goods, which I afterwards sent to the prisoner—the prisoner did not pay us for any of these goods; he gave us bills which have been unpaid—there are some acceptances which are paid—none are paid during those three months ending in May—we had three small ones paid prior to that—I received this letter from the prisoner—(Read: 11, and 12, Gresham-house,

Old Broad-street, 14th July, 1860. My dear Sir a,—I have been out all day about the Railway. I feel sure that I shall be able to remit you on Monday. Please send up good cotton, gray and white, and Irish linen, four quarter, from one to two shillings. I can take a 1,000l. worth of Irish linen for a good market; yours very faithfully, John Dales. Messrs. Thompson and Woodhouse")—I also received this letter, it is in the prisoner's writing—(This was dated 20th July, from the prisoner to Messrs. Thompson and Woodhouse, stating that he fully expected to receive 60,000l. worth of Canada Bonds by the next mail, which he should be glad to see)—Messrs. Carlton, Walker, and Co., of Manchester are creditors of ours, we bought goods of them—they were acquainted with the fact that we were supplying goods to Dales this letter to them is in Dales' writing—(Read: "11, and 12, Gresham-house, Old Broad-street, 37th June, 1860. Gentlemen,—I regret much that my bonds did not come as expected by the last mail from Canada. I can give a quantity of my fluid as security until my Canada Bonds come. I trust that you will not destroy my position for the sake of a little delay; please oblige me, and give me a little time, and oblige your humble servant, John Dales. To Messrs. Carlton, Walker, and Co.")—this other letter is also in Dales' writing—(Read; "19th July, 1860.—Gentlemen,—In reply to your esteemed favour of the 18th instant, I did not understand my word to be pledged to send cash and obtain another name to a bill for renewal for the balance. I said that I would do that if possible; up to this moment I have not been able to obtain another name. I must ask the favour of your renewing the whole for a short time. I will leave myself entirely in your hands, and bow to your decision. I am doing for the best I remain, your humble servant, John Dales. Messrs. Carlton, Walker, and Watson P.S.—I have this moment seen the Managing Director of the Railway, and he has not, up to this moment, received intelligence of the bonds.")—we named to Carlton, Walker, and Co. the credit we were to give to Dales—we gave them Mr. Dales' acceptances, and I presume it was in consequence of that that these letters were written—we parted with these goods because we believed he would pay us; we found that belief on the statement of his having property in Canada bonds, and possessing this patent, and from the circumstance of his name being painted on the door; we had implicit confidence, and the only question was when they would arrive—I find an entry in the ledger on July 12th, of goods sent to the prisoner 500,520, 530, and 431, on the same page five packages—on 12th, 13th, and 14th July, there were nineteen bales marked J. D. L. in a diamond, 500, 510, 520, 530, 531, 540, 550, 560, 570, 580, WO, 600, 610, 620, 630, 640, 650, 660, and 670—they are entered on the 12th, and all went between the 12th and 14th—the value of them was 859l. 18s. 6d.—the value of the first four lots was 361l. 9s. 1d.; the fifth bale, No. 531, 34l. 3s.; the next eight bales, 308l. 2s. 6d.; and the six last, 156l. 3s. 11d.—on July 16th here is J. D. L. in a diamond, 680, 690, 700, 710, and 720, value 163l. 3s. 1d.—July 17th, mark T. W. B. in a diamond, bales 22, 23, to 31, inclusive, value 287l. 10s. 9d.; under the same date and mark Nos. 730 and 740, value 45l. 17s. 2d—July 20th, J. D. in a diamond, bales 500 to 504, inclusive, value 512l. 7s. 2d—July 20th, D. in a diamond, 700, 701, and 702, value 387l. 12s. 6d.; July 21, J. D. in a diamond, bales 505 to 517 inclusive, value 1,102l. 16s. 8d.—the value of 510,511,514,515, and 517 inclusive, is 385l. 16s. 4d.—on the same date 751 to 763 inclusive, the mark is not there, but I think it was J. D. in a diamond, they are only marked by number, the value is 623l. fit 10d.—at folio B 287, here is July 23d, mark T in a diamond, 1,2, 3,4, and 5, value 410l. 12s. 6d.—on the same

date J. D. L in a diamond 764,765, and 766, value 164l. 1s. 10d.: but there is another box included in that amount, marked 10 in a diamond, 3,581—the value of the three bales alone is 107l. 7s. 7d.—on July 24th here is D in a diamond, 600 to 604 inclusive, value 369l. 17s. 2d.—there were other goods at the same time; the total value is 953l. 13s. 3d.—those all went to the prisoner—600 to 609 inclusive, the same date, J. D. L in a diamond, 773 and 774, 234l. 3s. 9d.—July 25th, D. in a diamond 714 to 720. inclusive value, 1,285l. 3s. 2d.—July 27th D in a diamond, 662 to 676, inclusive 935l. 6s. 8d. d—the same day D in a diamond 721 to 726, value 1,007l. 0s. 10d.—the same day, mark J. D. L. in a diamond, 775, value 28l. 6s. 2d.—31st July D. in a diamond, 562 to 566 inclusive, 551l. 13s. 2d.; and on the same day J. D. L. in a diamond, 776 to 780 inclusive, 383l. 12s. 2d.—on the same day, the same mark, 781 and 782, 233l. 11s. 7d.—the prisoner sent us a bond—after it was lent we had a conversation with him about it—we saw him at Birmingham—the bond was present, and I am not clear about the matter; but I believe he went to our bankers to see if he could negotiates loan—we had the bond at the time in our possession—I do not know that we showed it to him—he said that the bonds were arriving, that we should be paid in cash, and he was anxious to negociate a loan with Moillists which I was surprised at, as I understood him he had arranged with Gurneys—that is the same conversation which I alluded to before: either the end of July or the beginning of August.

Cross-examined. Q. This was not the first conversation you had had at Birmingham with Mr. Dales, was it, about these matters? A. Certainly not—we had many conversations at Birmingham and in London—we had perfect confidence in him at that time—we ceased to have confidence in him when he was made bankrupt, but not quite then; we had a strong opinions as to his straightforwardness for some few days after the bankruptcy—that was 17th August—our confidence lasted for some days after the bankruptcy—we became bankrupt on 3d. September in consequence of Mr. Dales bankruptcy—I cannot give you the amount of our debts—our liabilities included some acceptances we gave to Dales, and the whole amount, including those, was upwards of 20,000l. but not a great deal upwards—I do not know what amount has been realised: I have not the smallest notion—it is more than 1,000l.—I am not prepared to swear that anything has been realised because I have not had access to the books, and have heard nothing of the matter—the first conversation with Dales was in January—we had had previous small transactions in December—we were not at this time dealing with Parker at all—the first parcel we sent to Parker on his own account was February 29th, 1860—(I saw Parker in Dales' office)—this continued for about three months: it closed on May 9th—the total amount of goods which Parker had on his own account was 3,267l. 15s. 11d.—we had a person largely indebted to us named Debeck—I cannot tell you the amount of his debt, because I cannot tell what bills are paid—I have no means of telling you how much he is our debtor—I have not the particulars of bankruptcy here—I do not know whether those bills have been paid or not—I cannot tell you the amount of the debt at the time of the bankruptcy or of the goods not paid for without the balance-sheet—I can give you the total amount of goods we supplied to Debeck, it is 1,769l. 10s. 6d.—I may be in error 1l. or 2l., but under 2,000l.—about 270l. was paid—I have not attributed our bankruptcy at all to Barker and Debeck's debts as well as to Mr. Dales—Dales made an assignment of all his property—I certainly did not press him to do so, on the ground that Barker and Debeck's debts, and

some others in Glasgow, had to involved us, that we must have his property to help us—we pressed him for the assignment because he promised us 5,000l. and afterwards 4,000l., and then he reduced it to 3,000l.—we had a telegram saying that we should have 3,000l. on the following morning; but we were under no pressure from our bankers—we pressed him because we wanted his money to go on with, and I think I did say that in consequence of Debeck's and other losses we could not find the money; but we should not have stopped on that account, because we had 10,000l. left—we did not have a meeting in Birmingham or London before that assignment, in which we pressed Dales to take goods and got 80l. per cent advanced on them—I never dined with Mr. Dales near London-bridge—he dined with us at Anderton's hotel—that is the only place.

Q. Do you recollect coming up with Mr. Thomson and Dales and discussing his difficulties and your difficulties, and dining together in the middle of July? A. I think it was in the middle of July—I did not tell him then that I would send him up any amount of goods if he could get 80 per cent on them; I said that we could let him have goods if he would pay for them—he was largely indebted to us in the middle of July, and I should think we sent him 10,000l., worth after the middle of July—I said that I would send him up any amount of goods if he would pay for them; but I never heard such a matter mentioned as 80l. per cent.—I do not remember the date, I think it was early in July, 1860, that we discussed the defendant's difficulties, but not our mutual difficulties—we were not in difficulties at that time—we did not telegraph to Mr. Dales to bring him up from Maid-stone to meet us; and I do not know that it was done—I have no recollection of anything of the sort—I believe the total amount of goods unpaid from May was 13,000l. of which 11,900l. were supplied in July alone.

COURT. Q. I understand that you supplied him with 10,000l. worth of those goods after July when you discussed his difficulties? A. Well, I am not really clear as to the time in July when we met, I think it would be the early part of July—I have said that he was indebted to us at the time of that conversation less by 10,000l. than he is now.

MR. TAYLOR. Q. Were the whole of those goods sent up in July? A. July 12th they commenced—the amount is 361l. 9s. 1d., then we go on 13th, 14th, to the 21st, when we begin very large amounts, 1,200l. and 600l.—the whole of those goods in July were sent after the conversation about his difficulties—12,000l. worth of goods were sent up in July—I cannot show any orders for them; they were given verbally in our counting-house in London—there were some written orders, but in July the orders were given verbally to me by Mr. Parker and Mr. Dales, and we went into the market to get them—it is impossible for me to say what part of these goods went in consequence of the order of Mr. Dales, and what part in consequence of Parker's; because, generally speaking, we had one or two orders from Mr. Parker—there was one letter read this morning; one of the letters ordering Borne sheeting—all the orders in July were supplied on the orders of Parker—he did not show me a piece of paper giving an account of his previous bankruptcy—I heard of it in June or July—this paper (produced) was shown to me in June or July—it is an account of his previous bankruptcy—he brought it out of his pocketbook—we were not aware that he was bankrupt before—that was before these goods were sent up—he had a patent for deoderizing—no proposal was made for my having a share in it: certainly not; nor was it proposed to assign it—there was no assignment except the deed—I do not remember an interview on 6th May, 1860, at Birmingham,

at which my partner was present, at which we agreed to assist Mr. Dales to the extent of a considerable sum of money to carry on the patent—we never agreed to assist him at all—I remember an interview at which we agreed to accept bills for Mr. Dales; that was, I think, 5th May, 1860—on that occasion we accepted bills for his accommodation to 4,000l.—there was a bill of his due on 26th May, for 845l. 15s. 9d.—there was also a bill of 1,000l. then running—those two bills the 1,000l. and the 845l. did not cover over transactions at that time—on April 24th we sent him 1,400l.—I do not know the total amount of debts that we claim now from Mr. Dales; it is about 20,000l. including the bills; I am speaking from memory only—that is for goods, and for the accommodation bills—when we gave him acceptances which he wanted for his patent that includes the 4,000l. accommodation bills—I do not think they have been paid, they fell due after the bankruptcy—the total amount of our goods is 16,000l.—I am sorry I have not his balance-sheet here, or I could tell you exactly—I say that he cannot our bankruptcy—I did not say that we received nothing during July; certainly not—from the commencement of the transaction we received in bills paid and in cash 1,600l. or 1,700l.—we received 460l. in cash in July.

Q. At this interview which I have alluded to on 5th May when the 4000l. bills were accepted, I believe a conversation arose about a contract with the Brighton Railway for some works? A. Ton are in error about 5th May, because it was in London these bills were accepted, in Dales' office—it was in London that I agreed to give them—he was not in Birmingham on 5th May—I was in London—I would not fix the date at all—I said that it might be 5th May—there was an interview in London at our office, and not at Birmingham, at which it was agreed to advance 4,000l. to him—this paper (produced) was not shown on that occasion; I never saw it before—I do not remember that it was explained to me that the contract on the Brookvills and Ottawa Railway required a large amount for its completion; something? did not occur—it was not explained to me that a very large sum of money would be required for completing the contract on the Brockvills and Ottawa railway, nor to either of my partners, in my presence—I did not know that the contract was not completed, I never enquired, because it was on the door of his office—I had not such implicit confidence in him that I enquired nothing about it, but he said that he had agreed with Mean Gurney to advance upon them when they arrived—I did hear Simpsons name—the goods were supplied for shipping—Mr. Dales did not tell me that a person named Simpson would advance eighty per cent directly they was shipped—he told me nothing about Simpson—I asked him at the recasting at Manchester, when we had Mr. Dales with us, about his patent—I was asked if I had heard that the goods had gone to Simpson, and I said, "No, I never heard of his name"—the first time I heard Mr. Simpson's name was when he said, "No, that he had sent them to a person named Simpson—that was on 23d August, 1860—at the meeting of our creditors in the office of Sole and Worthington, solicitors, Manchester, I asked him the question, and he said that Simpson had made no advance upon them—I never heard of the Brighton Railway contract—I heard that he was trying to get a contract for a branch of some railway, but I do remember the name—he said that he had taken a contract with a railway company—we did not agree to advance him money and supply him with the means of going on with it—I do not know when we heard about the contract with the railway company, heard so many things; it did not interest us any more than if we sold the goods and got the money, and those were inducements to us give him

credit, because we believed he was making money very fast—I do not know. then I first heard of the railway contract; it has gone altogether from my mind—on 10th May, the bill of 845l. became due, and was dishonoured—on 11th July the bill of 1,000l., became due; that was before any of these goods were supplied—that was honoured—I do not know on what day I was first examined before the Alderman, it is about three months since—I do not know whether the examinations of myself and the other witnesses extended over a month—I neither suggested or produced these letters until to-day—I saw Parker there one day—I did not know that he was subpoened as a witness—he was not examined during my stay—I do not know how I happened to get these letters addressed to Carlton and Co.—they are people who we do business with, large merchants in Manchester, and to whom we were largely indebted—the bulk of these goods were supplied by Carlton and Co.—I think they are the largest creditors we had—it was in June that we had first knowledge of Dales' bankruptcy—it is impossible to fix a day; perhaps Mr. Thompson might; he is here—excuse me, I think I can tell you the date (Looking at the bill-book), no, I cannot, for these bills are not entered here; they are in the official assignees hands—it was in June—on that occasion I believe I saw the piece of paper which you have put into my hands—it was not explained to me that the claim upon the Ottawa and Brockville Railway Company was in consequence of that uncompleted contract—he said that he had been bankrupt with his brother—we were not aware that his brother and he had been bankrupt—he said that he had paid all the claims of the bankruptcy except some 5 or 6,000l., and he had no farther liabilities—I was sure he had not any contract with the Canada Railway since 1858, and had not become possessed of 300,000l. worth of bonds since the bankruptcy—I presumed that that was before the first bankruptcy, and that he had that left after satisfying all demands, and that he had met those demands, with the exception of 5 or 6,000l.—we asked him for the 300,000l. of bonds, and he said that they were delayed in consequence of the new issue, and had not arrived in this country—the statement to us was, that he had 300,000l. interest in the Brockville and Ottawa Railway Company—that was previous to our knowledge of his bankruptcy—I am referring to a conversation in June, when we heard that he had been brankrupt with his brother, and we asked him the question—he told us of his former bankruptcy, and that he had satisfied all the calls except 6,000l., and had 300,000l. worth of bonds due to him—he produced that paper, and said that the whole of the liabilities of that bankruptcy had been satisfied except 6,000l.—he stated that since his first bankruptcy, he had still that 300,000l.; that all was satisfied, and that this was die to him; that he had got 300,000l. interest in the railway to meet the 6,000l. which he still owed—I did not ask him if he had acquired that since his bankruptcy—he said that the Railway Company were in difficulties, and could not pay, and there was a new issue, in consequence of which he said was the non-arrival of the bonds—he did not tell me that the contract with the Railway Company was not completed, and I did not inquire—I mean to say that distinctly—he made no representation as to the sale of the patent for the fluid to the Leicester Manure Company—I heard him say once that he had some patents which were in use at Leicester—I did not wish him to go down and sell the patent in order to raise 20,000l., in order to get some cash—I supposed he was entitled to 300,000l.—I did not go to the Bankrapley Court to make any inquiry—I am certain of that—I never said that I went to inspect the schedule of his previous bankruptcy—it never occurred to me

to me to do it—we understood that hit former bankruptcy was discharge except that 5 or 6,000l. and therefore we made no furthern enquiry about it—we made no inquiry about the Brockville and Ottawa Railway Company farther than what has been stated—we obtained an assignment from Dales on 10th August of all his property in it, and I suppose Mr. Hall, the solicitor, who made out the assignment for us, took possession of all his papers—on the 17th, we petitioned the Court of Bankruptcy for a adjudication; I believe that was superseded on the ground that it was made against good faith—I do not know whether it was the insufficiency of the act of bankruptcy, or the insufficiency of the assignment; I am not a lawyer—I never heard anything from Mr. Dales of the completion of the contract—I presumed he had done with the railway when he had got his bonds—there is a letter enclosing the bond which was seat over, allowing under what circumstances it was sent—I have not got it—there was no arrangement before the letter to send one as a specimen; we never asked our bankers, but Mr. Dales I believe did, to see whether they would advance him money upon it—I believe he went—we showed the bond to our bankers, not to ask for an advance of money, but to show that the bonds were arriving—we gave the bond into the hands of our solicitor, and it afterwards appeared that the bond was only borrowed, and not his—we were not pressed for money at all; we never were in difficulties with one banker's at all—our bills for 3,000l. became due on 5th August, and we were to have had 5,000., previously to that from Mr. Dales, and we received a telegram saying that he had completed a loan of 20,000l., and that the money should be at Lubbock's on the day following—I went there and showed the telegram and requested that they would not honour our bills until they had the money—the bills were coming due on 4th August—it was about August 2d that I went to our banker's—they did not advance us money; you understood me wrongly, I said that we had bills coming due on 4th August, and we should have all this money on 1st August—Mr. Tompson come up on 2d August to see about the money, and telegraphed that on the following morning we should have the 3,000l.—at that time we were indebted to our banker's to a large amount, and these bills were coming due on the 4th, which would have made our account about 3,000l. more—I went and showed the telegram, and said "If the 3,000l., is there meet our acceptances, if not, refuse them, and we must call a meeting of our creditors because we cannot go on without"—we were indebted to our banker's between 2,000l. and 3,000l.; in consequence of that we directed them not to honour bills then coming due.

MR. METCALFE. Q. You were indebted to them if Dales' money was not paid: if Dales' money had been paid you would have been able to go on.? A. Certainly.

MR. TAYLOR. Q. On what terms were all these goods supplied? A. The usual terms of four months bills—a few days after the 17th August I pointed his attention to something in a newspaper—I am not clear whether it was in Birmingham or London—I said that I would write a letter to the newspaper and say that his conduct bad been straightforward throughout, and release him from imputation—he wrote the letter himself, and I signed it—I think it was in consequence of the erroneous statement in a pagraph which appeared in one of the weekly papers, which was untrue, and he wrote the letter to say so, and I signed it.

COURT. Q. You were asked whether you would have any objection to state that his conduct had been straightforward and honourable? A. Yes; it was to that effect—I had implicit confidence in him.

MR. METCALFE Q. What day was that? A. The adjudication was dis-puted on Thursday, and this appeared on the following Saturday—it was 20th August, I think—I did not, at that time, know anything at all about the goods having gone to Simpson's—I did not, at that time, know that he bad no interest in the Canada Railway; I believed he had—it was before I knew the real position in which Dales stood—there had been no examination—Dales was in Birmingham upon our bankruptcy—we were opposed on the ground of that transaction with Dales—the matter was very fully inquired into by the Commissioner, Dales being called, and a great many other witnesses also—as the result of that, the Commissioner acquitted us of any fraud in the transaction, and we have got our certificate—I did not know till 23d August that any of our goods had gone to Simpson's, or been sold in any way than in the ordinary way of trade—if I had known that they had been sold to Simpson under cost price I should certainly not have supplied any more—I never heard Simpson's name.

Q. You say the name of the Canada Railway was on his office, are you aware of any other place of inquiry excepting in Canada? A. He did not tell me where the offices were—I am doubtful whether we showed this bond at the bank, but we gave it to our solicitors, Hotson and Allan; they were sued for it, and compelled to give it up—we agreed, on 5th May, to advance 4,000l. by accommodation bills, because he said he had expended about 6,000l. in the preparation of the patent fluid for deodorising the Thames, and he was instructed to be ready to deliver it in large quantities by the Chairman of the London Board of Works, Mr. Thwaites—and he might want the money to go on with, and it was to profitable he should get rich all at once; he expected to get 8,000l. a week.

COURT. Q. It was to enable him to work out his patent that you advaced it? A. Certainly—he said he might want the bills but he was not sure, and if he discounted them he would let us know, and we were not aware that they had been discounted.

MR. METCALFE. Q. You say you knew before sending a portion of the goods in July, that he had been bankrupt previously? A. Yes; I knew he had paid off all but 6,000l.—I did not know that what interest he had in the Canadian Railway was assigned—the orders for goods as well as the other papers are in the hands of our assignees, who live at Birmingham—this paper is in Parker's writing, and has Dales' signature; it is a copy of what was sent to me—there are two copies both signed by Dales—they are orders for goods, one in March and one in April—(Mr. Serjeant Ballantine stated that he withdrew them)—the signature to this letter is in Dales' writing, (Read: "1st August, 1860—Gentlemen, I beg to say that my acceptance in your favour for, 67l. 6s. 9d. due on Saturday the 4th instant, is duly provided for at my banker's, and you may draw upon me for 3,000l. as follows; 1,000l. at fourteen days date, 1,000l. at one month, and 1,000l. at three months, these will be duly provided for at maturity. A small amount of Canada bonds have arrived, and a large amount of 100,000l. is expected will shortly follow; I shall be able to arrange to sell them or accept a loan for them. I enclose you one bond, which if you could arrange an advance with your bankers, or otherwise for 30,000l. or 40,000l. I would pay you out of it; this you will see about and advise me—I am, yours faithfully, John Dales. To Messrs. Thompson and Woodhouse. No, of bond 150, July 2d, 1860,")—we got a third class certificate nine months dated back.

THOMAS DENCE . I reside at 20, Park-place West, Islington, and am clerk

to Edwards and James; of King-street, Cheapside, accountants—they was the accountants employed by the assignees under this bankruptcy to investigate the books—I produce the bankrupt's bill-book, and this is the invoice book in which, at folio 58, I find an invoice of Thompson and Woodhouse, May 10th, goods 177 and 178, marked D. in a diamond, to the amount of 56l. 1s. 7d.; but this appears to be an account taken before the others—on folio 59, I find an invoice of Thompson and Woodhouse, July 12th, 531, J.D.L. in a diamond, amounting to 34l. 3s.—there is also one on the same day for 369l. 3s. 1d.—at folio 59 I find, July 19th, Thompson and Woodhouse, goods, 540, 550, 560, 570, 580, 590, 600. and 610, J.D.L., 308l. 2s. 6d.—at folio 60, I find another for 230, 340 and 266, marked in the same way; also at folio 60, July 16th, 680, 710, and 720, 163l. 3s. 1d.; also at folio 60, to the same people, August 17th, goods numbered 730 and 740, marked the same, 45l. 17s. 2d. and on the same folio, Thompson and Woodhouse, 17th July, goods 22 to 31, marked T.W.B., 287l. 10s. 9d.—on the same folio I find an invoice from Thompson and Woodhouse of July 20th, 500 to 504, J.D. in a diamond, 512l.: 7s. 2d.—on folio 61, an invoice to the same people, goods 700, 701, and 702, D. in a diamond, 387l. 12l. 6l.—at the same folio I find an invoice to Thompson and Woodhouse, July 21st, goods 751 to 763, 623l. to 10d.; then I no mark—at folio 62, I find July 23d. 764 to 766, J.D.L in a diamond 164l. 1l. 10l.—(I find no invoice to answer to 1,102l. 16l. 8d. on 17th July)—I find on folio 62, July 23d, 1 to 5, T. in a diamond, 410l. 2s. 6s.; also July 23d, 600 to 604, D. in a diamond, 953l. 13s. 3d.

COURT. Q. I have another entry of 23d July, 764, 765, and 66, have you an invoice of those; J.D.L in a diamond, 177l. 7s. 11d.?A. No I have not; I must explain that the bankrupt's accounts were not well kept and some are missing—I have an invoice of 24th July, 234l. 3s. 9d., J.D.L in a diamond; it is dated 24th July, and is altered from 24th into 23d.

MR. LIWIS. Q. Have you 714 to 720, D. in a diamond, 1,285l. 3s. 2d.? A. I have; and at folio 63, from the same people, 27th July, 721 to 726, marked the same, 1,007l. 0s. 10d.—at the same folio, from the same people, 31st July, 776 to 780, J.D.L in a diamond, 383l. 12s. 2d.

COURT. Q. Do you find 775, 28l. 6s. 2d.? A. No, nor July 27th, 662 to 676 inclusive, 935l. 6s. 8d.; those are all the invoices I find in July—the bankrupt's books were not very correctly kept and that includes the I invoice-book.

MR. LIWIS. Q. Among the papers of the bankrupt did you find that (produced)? A. That was sent to our firm by Henry Simpson—we wrote to Henry Simpson for it, and afterwards I saw him on account of one lot of goods being wetted, which he put in—the bankrupt saw it, helped me to go through the accounts in reference to it, and signed the balance-sheet afterwards—this particular account was included in the balance-sheet which he signed after he saw it with me.

MR. TAYLOR. Q. You do not pretend to say that the amounts were included item by item in the balance sheet? A. Yes; the information so past into the balance-sheet, and which was said to be correct by the defendant, was got from this account of Simpson's—this account has been copied item by item in his balance-sheet.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. I understand you to say that this account was seen by the defendant, who assisted you in making it on and afterwards signed it? A. Yes, and it is not only the aggregate but item by item introduced into the balance-sheet, and signed by the defendant—

(THE COURT considered that this made the account evidence)—I have gone through this account and it tallies with the invoices as far at I hare invoices—assuming there to have been 10,000l. worth of goods delivered to Simpson, which is about the amount to which he is debited by Woodhouse, he professes to have received from Simpson 4,903l. 12s.—he does not in any part of his balance sheet, or by any instrument, debit Simpson with any further amount duo from Simpson to him beyond that—there does not appear in any portion of his account to be any shipping account between him and Simpson but this; only what is included in this—when I say no shipping account, I mean among his books; this is the only shipping account that the bankrupt appears to have had with Simpson, as far as the books show—I have had my attention called to the amount of legal expences in different actions during the last twelve months—the amount of legal costs in his balance-sheet is 1,212l. 1s. 6d. from 1st January, 1859, to 16th August, 1860—I can only tell how much of that accrued within the last three or four months, by looking carefully through the books—I can turn to the entries of the actions which were pending against him at the time of his bankruptcy—I find in the cash-book, on 3d May. an entry of expences in relation to a bill due 19th April, "Hall, for Place's bill, Woodford, 100l. ditto expences, 10l."—on June 7th, in relation to a bill due on 23d. April, by Stock, here is "P. Stock, per Bull, 37l. 19s. 10d. costs 2l. 12s. 6d. total 40l. 12s. 4d."—here is in the cash-book, at 16th May, Simpson's bill, lift 10s. and 14l. 8s. expences—at 12th May, I find a bill of 65l. and 2l. 12l. 8l. expences; 67l. 12l. 8d.—at 15th May is one of Mr. William Vivian's, 382l. 10s. costs 10l. 6s. 11d.; at 22d May, 1860, Joseph Cliff, 35l. 4s. expences 4l. 7s. 3d.—hers is a bill due on 6th May, 151l.; Farthing, 151l. 9s. 4d.; 28th May, Legge, 75l. costs 2l. 10s.; 19th May, Dobee Hall, bill 75l. expenses 3l. 3s.; Lloyd Vivian, 202l. due 30th May, Vivians costs 5l. 18s. 6d.; 23d June, Vivian, 50l.; June 29th, Vivian, 53l. 10s. 5d.; July 20th, law costs, Lloyd Vivian, 7l.

Q. Is there a bill in the bill-book about Groves, for 200l. due on 17th July, as you find one as against Groves? A. Over the bill here are law costs 5l. 16s. 4d.—in the banker's bill-book and in the cash-book of 1st August, 1860, I find "costs to gammon Fauntleroy"—I have no idea what proportion of the 1,200l. and odd law expences were incurred before the bankruptcy—I cannot say how many oases there are in which it would appear to have been paid within those three months—I cannot say entirely.

COURT. Q. Can you give the jury about the number of bills, mentioning the time in respect of which costs were incurred? A. If you take the bills upon which notation is incurred, it is a good many; but the bills upon which expences are incurred are fifteen or twenty in the three months.

MR. SERGEANT BALLANTINE. Q. There were fifteen upon which actions were brought, and against many others which were noted? A. I believe that is about the number.

Cross-examined by MR. TAYLOR. Q. When you get costs and expences in florae cases, you cannot tell what is interest and what is law costs? A. No—1,200l. is not the total expences of bills in the fifteen months; but the total including all law costs—he debits Simpson with the money received, and credits him with the goods.

Q. Every item of goods so far as you have been able to trace it from Thompson and Woodhouse, goes to Simpson; is not Simpson debited with it? A. We have debited him with it—the books have been very imperfectly kept; the clerks kept them—they are a little in his writing; a

few bills are entered in his writing—he has given me every facility in his power for making up the accounts since his bankruptcy.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Did you make up the account in the former bankruptcy? A. I did not—I have looked at it, to see whether the interest on the Canadian Railway is entered there; and it is—(Reading the entry).

HENRY SIMPSION . I am a commission merchant, and carry on business at Sise-lane, London—I believe my first transaction with Dales was on 1st May, 1860—here are my books (produced)—this is the account I rendered to the bankrupt's estate (produced)—it is a fact that I received into my possession all these goods; they appear in my books—my first transaction with Dales was on 1st May; he gave me goods to ship—I had some conversation with him—a person named Eli Read, I believe, introduced me to him—he asked me whether I would take any goods on consignment, to ship for him—I said, "Yes, if it will suit me; I will take them"—Eli Read gets his living, I suppose, as well as he can, it is not my business; as agent or something, I do not know—they were of the nominal value of 10,000l—he said he came from Mr. Dale's—I suppose he was employed by Mr. Dale—I had known him for years—he was not a servant of mine—I never pay him anything—I have given him a shilling now and then, but that is not paying—if a man asks me to lend him a trifle, I do so—I have lent to Read half-a-crown at a time for many years—he introduced me to Mr. Dales and asked me if I would take goods on consignment—I said to Mr. Dales that I should export them to Hamburgh—I did not say so to Read—I was to export them to my correspondent there, J. Hezekiel—he is not a partner or relation of mine, merely my correspondent—I advanced Mr. Dales money on the different deliveries—I have got the first transaction entered—it is "Goods consigned value 351l. 3s. 8d."—I gave him in addition 234l. I charge a boneficiatio; that is what you term a commission—I charged Dale 5l. per cent—he paid me my commission—I did not get paid back again—I paid him 235l., and he paid me 5l. per cent out of that—I advanced 5 per cent. on the 234l.—the nominal value of the goods was 351l.—I also find the amount of my advance in my cash-book (produced)—I consigned these goods to Hezekiel—there was an account between us.

Q. Have you any account between you and Dales to be paid over to him beyond the sum originally advanced? A. I have advanced the money and I have got a lien upon the goods—if the goods fetch more than the advance I shall have to pay the amount to the bankrupt or to his assignees—I have not got the book of sales—I went on receiving these things from May to August—I shall not send in the account to the bankrupt till all the goods are sold, then I will make up my account, and what is due to the creditors I will pay—I have my ledger here—this is Dales' account.

Q. But this is only a copy of your day-book? A. I have got no other book—my charge to Dales for shipping and brokerage will come when I make up the amount of sale—there is no brokerage but the shipping note I have from my shipping agent—I have not made up my book in which I show the charge against Dales for shipping these goods.

Cross-examined. Q. But it is eighteen months ago? A. My dear Sir, if goods are so high I cannot sell them—I put the shipping charges down to Mr. Hezekiel's account, the charges which ought to be paid to Mr. Dales afterwards—I have not put in the amount due to me—I have had no account from Hezekiel of the sale of any of these goods—I have general accounts with Hezekiel, and he remits me money at times—I do a great

deal of business with him, and I owe him money now—if I have business I can get money—if I write and ask him for 500l. he sends it to me—I cannot tell at present whether Dales owes me something—I did not send all the goods to Hezekiel, I sold some here to another party Mr. Wilhelms in the Poultry and to Messrs. Harvey and Buck—I sold Wilhelms 1,300l. or 1,400l. worth of these goods last year; probably very shortly after I get them.

Q. Is that what you call exporting to Hamburgh? A. I could do what I liked with them, and when I bought them for the German market I shipped them—I had authority to do what I liked with them—I cannot tell whether Dales owes me any money upon this transaction of Wilhelms' till I make out the account—I have made out the account, and he paid me.

Q. Have you to pay money to Mr. Dales, or does the estate owe you money? A. I have never looked into it—if I have 5,000l. every farthing over I shall hand over to the assignees, if the goods do not fetch so much then I shall have a claim which I suppose I shall not get.

Q. Is there anybody besides Wilhelms? A. I believe you have got the particulars—Mr. Turner has had me fifteen hours at the police-court, and knows everything which I have done.

Q. But the Jury do not know who else. A. Harvey and Buck 400l. or 500l.—they have paid me—I have an account of the parcels of goods I sold to them—they are not yet carried to any account of Dales—I must account for the goods I have received—I have documents to which I could refer, but it would take a long time—I have received the goods and disposed of them—I have nothing to show what is due to Dales on the transaction—I believe there is nobody besides Wilhelms and Harvey and Buck—when I make up the accounts I can give you every item—if I owe the assignees, there is a Court where they can make me pay for them—I believe there is—nobody besides the two I have mentioned—I really do not know, but Mr. Turner will know—I cannot do it by memory—I am on my oath—I decline to answer the question whether there have been other cases of bankruptcy in which I have received very large quantities of goods—I am an agent, and I buy and sell goods—having had the warning of a former inquiry you are to understand that there are no other books here showing my transactions with Dales—I hope this letter (produced) is in Mr. Dales writing—I say "I hope," because I do not know whether I was present when he wrote it—I believe it is his writing—(Read:—" Mr. H. Simpson, July 21,1860. Sir. I beg to say that all moneys paid to Mr. B. Burke on my account, for which he may have given you a receipt, he has my authority for so doing, and also all further monies you may pay to him on my account he has my authority to receive and give you a receipt for it. This authority you will consider in force until you have, in writing, a notice from me withdrawing it. I am, Sir, your obedient servant, John Dales. Witness, Eli Read, 23d, July, 1860.")—the goods were sent to my packer Turner—I dare say I arranged with Dales that the goods should be sent to my packer's either with him or one of his messengers—it was I who recommended the packer and arranged with Dales that the goods should be sent to that Packer—I used not to go and look at the goods before I exported them—I wanted to see the contents, to see how much I could advance upon them, and I used to examine them—they were always sent to my packer—I have seen some of the invoices—this is one of them (Produced)—it has been in my Possession—I received it in this manner, with something shaved off the top of it—I swear that—I did not notice it at the time—I never looked at the

top of it—I did not know all the time these transactions were going on from whom the goods were obtained—I had not the invoices—I have seen some invoices—I did not see the invoice in almost every instance—I do not know the people at all from whom the goods were obtained—I debit Hezekiel with the goods.

Q. Just show me the book in which you do so. A. I appeal to my Lord if I have occasion to show the transactions I have with Mr. Hezekiel—(THE COURT considered that the witness was bound to show his transactions relating to the consignment of these goods to Hezekiel)—You have got the book in your hand—(taking the book and turning to the entries) "May 1, goods cansinged y John Dales"—I debit Mr. Hezekiel with them—I beg of you not to read all the items; you may, but I beg of Mr. Turner to sit down—"Goods can signed by Dales," means what I charged him with—I advanced 234l. and I debit Hezekiel with 256l. 16s.—he knows the real value of the goods, because I give him the invoice as I receive it of Mr. Dales, the statement—I did not send Hezekiel the invoice—I made him an invoice.

Q. How was he to know that the goods were worth 234l? A. He wrote me word that the goods were worth 150l. when he had them, and there was a salt water account—I am from Hamburgh, but I am a British subject—I will show by this book how Mr. Hezekiel knows the value of the goods—you see he will consign a bale of silk, so much carriage from Manchester, he and I debit him with 256l.—I send him a copy of this—I have not received from him an account of the sales, I asked for it a fortnight ago, and in a month I shall have it—I have been to Hamborough myself—this is my day book—Mr. Dales has required an account of sales from me—it must have been within three months that I had the goods—all the documents I have are in Mr. Turner's hands.

Cross-examined. Q. There is one asking for an account? A. Yes—my mode of business is to send Hezekiel a copy of my day book—in one or two instances I put the price a little higher, in order to put the price higher over that—I put about 5l. per cent. on—I have an account of the charges that were put upon these goods from my shipping agent, and when I make up the accounts, I shall bring them forward—I take them out and make them up—there is an account with Mr. Dales in the ledger—that shows money I have advanced to him—Mr. Turner is my partner; he is very respectable—the goods were sent to him by arrangement with Dales to repack and ship—I have had transactions with Parker on his own account, once or twice; no more—I can refer to my book and tell you how many transactions I have had with him—I have known him some years—I did business three or four years ago with him in other things—I cannot tell you whether this letter (produced) is in his writing—I am not acquainted with his writing—it might be; I have not seen him write it—this is, "Witness, Eli Read"—I have known Eli Read twenty years—I do not think I have seen Dales half-a-dozen times in reference to these goods; I always saw Parker—when I have seen Mr. Dales, he has asked me for an account—the prices of these goods were not fair prices—I have not been able to sell them in this country at half the price they were consigned to me—they were charged more than double the prices—I have made such reasonable efforts as I can to sell them at the best prices—I have advanced about 5,000l. on them, and when they are sold I will render an account.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Do you know where Parker is now?A. No; that has prevented my coming to any account with him—I have come to no account about this silk—I have been in business about thirty years—

I decline to tell you anybody to whom I have ever given an account in my life.

MR. TAYLOR. Q. Did not you receive some goods from Parker, which you bought at Dales' before you saw Dales? A. No.

JURY. Q. Have you received invoices with the whole of the transactions which have passed between you and Dales and Parker, which you can show us? A. I have received them; they are in Mr. Turner's hands (produced).

Q. I believe we are to understand from you, that you get about two-thirds of the value of what you sell at? A. This is only an advance; I lent the money, so I receive money upon the goods, and he repays me to sell them for him, and I charge him 5l. per cent upon the advance—when I have sold the goods, I pay what the balance is.

WILLIAM TURNER . I am a packer, and have been employed by Simpson—all the goods came by Dales' orders, without showing where they came from—they were sent from the country by the Great Northern, and Dales gave an order for the Company to deliver them to me, and by me they were shipped—that wan the course of business with respect to all the packages I received on his account—I think I traced every package through my books—I regularly delivered direct from the railway without going anywhere else.

Cross-examined. Q. Did you ever see Dales about it? A. Never—I simply received the written orders, which I produced at Guildhall—I never saw Parker—Simpson always brought me the written orders to receive them at the railway.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Are these the orders (produced)? A. Yes; they agree exactly with my books, and I have a draft in my pocket, showing the transactions.

ROBERT WATSON . I am manager of the Brockville and Ottawa Railway, in Canada—that is the line for which the prisoner originally was contractor—I recollect the first bankruptcy of Dales—from that period down to now he has not been at all connected with this railway—he has no property of toy kind in it, and is not entitled to any bonds as far as I know.

MR. TAYLOR. Q. I presume the railway Company has a charter under which the bonds are distributed? A. It has.

COURT. Q. Would the title to the bonds appear by register or written records? A. Mr. Dales being a contractor of the road, he was to receive part of his payment in debentures of the Company—the ownership of the bonds would not appear in the register; they are not registered; they are "to bearer."

Q. How would you know whether he is entitled to any bonds? A. I understood the question as contracter, whether there were any debentures doe to him on his contract with the Company—I limit it to that, that as contractor, he was not entitled to receive any bonds of the Company—the contract is in writing.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Was there any application made to you by Mr. Dales at any time, or did you entrust him with them? A. I gave a bond to Parker upon Parker's application—I had no conversation with Davis about that bond, that particular transaction—I was in England last July, for the purpose of receiving money for the construction of the line, and met Mr. Dales, who told me he could get the money I required for the purpose—he said that Gurney and Co. would advance the money on debentures; but a short time afterwards, he said that Gurney and Co. declined doing so, in consequence of the state of the money market; and Parker, his manager, told me that a banking firm in Birmingham would do it; upon that, I entrusted Parker with a bond.

Cross-examined by MR. TAYLOR. Q. You say that last year you were in England for the purpose of raising money for the construction of the line? A. Yes—the line was partially constructed then—the Dales Brothers had constructed part of it—they had not provided rails for the whole, nor nearly the whole—in 1857, there was an enormous depression of all American securities—there was no market for the Brockville and Ottawa, on account of the line not being constructed—Dales did not at that time claim from me a large sum in bonds—I am not aware of any claim he had at that time that he did not receive—he received payment for all he did—he did not claim a large quantity of bonds from me that I am aware of—the Company were carrying on the works when he took the contract—he ceased finding the money to pay the sub-contractor after August, 1857—he did not fail till August, 1858—at that time there was not in Canada any market for the securities, and I presume not in England—I came to England in August last year to raise money to go on with a portion of the line—I did not offer to Mr. Dales that if he would raise 60 per cent. upon it I would give him a large percentage—Mr. Dales undertook to raise the money—no particular rate was mentioned—I did not expect I should raise the full amount of the bond; we did not expect to get them at par—there was not a rate; we were to try and get as much as possible—I was to raise 60,000l. in July, 1860—I had bonds for the purpose of raising money on them—there was a negociation with the Mercantile Discount Company, which Mr. Dales was carrying on, and they offered 60 per cent—I had an offer through Mr. Dales of 60 per cent.—I had more than 100,000l. bonds with me—I was not willing to take 60 per cent.; I wanted something more—it was not arranged between me and Dales that he was to have 15 or 20 per cent commission; it was 3 per cent. on the total sum received—it was the latter part of July and August that this was going on—I had a correspondence with Moilliet and Co. the bankers at Birmingham, in August.

RICHARD HARRIS . I was formerly in Mr. Dale's employment at his premises in Dewsbury—I conducted his business there, and purchased goods for his account, in accordance with his directions—the letters were genially written by Mr. Parker—amongst other purchases, I purchased from Birmingham, of J. Walker and Rastree, fancy manufacturers—I had not direct instructions from Mr. Dales to attend to the instructions of Parker; but letters addressed by me to the defendant were answered by Parker in the usual way of business—about 20th July, 1860, I purchased of Messers. Walker, goods to the amount of 45l. 10s. 4 1/2 d.—this (produced) in the invoice—that parcel, delivered at Mr. Dale's premises at Dewsbury, was the first parcel from Walker—those goods were packed and sent to London—they were packed in four trusses and sent by the orders of George Parker to the Beehive—they were marked 231, 232, 233, and 234—the letters I wrote to Dales were generally answered by Parker—(Upon MR. LEWIS proposing to put in tome letters of Parker's, MR. TAYLOR objected to their being received is evidence. The COURT was of opinion that they would not carry the case any farther if admitted.)

MR. LEWIS. Q. Did you also buy on account of Mr. Dales, of Messrs. D. and E. Beaumont? A. I have the invoice of those goods here; the price is 55l. 9s. 5d.—they were sent to London on 10th July—they might be purchased the day before—they were sent on 12th July to the order of Benjamin Parker to the Beehive—there were three bales marked 228, 229, and 230, over an open diamond.

Cross-examined by MR. TAYLOR. Q. You only mean you sent them up,

you do not mean that you bad positive instructions to buy them? A. No.—I bad a discretion to purchase where I thought goods were cheap—I wrote to Mr. Dales and Mr. Parker answered—I had no positive instructions to purchase these particular goods at all—they are sent up to the order of Mr. B. Parker—I was in Mr. Dales' service twelve or thirteen months—I knew Parker eighteen months or two years before I went into Dales' service—that might have been long before Parker had anything to do with Dales—that was before Parker was with Dales—I was sent down to an agent at Dewsbury.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. You say you had no directions from Mr. Dales to purchase these particular goods? A. No; I had directions from nobody—in purchasing these particular goods I acted on the general instructions that I had received from time to time—I had, in relation to those general instructions, written letters up directed to Mr. Davis—these are the Liters that I so wrote up, and from time to time I received these letters from Parker in answer—these would be the letters which I should receive from London, and which I should send from Dewsbury to Mr. Dales—the orders I gave to Beaumont and Walker were following the general instructions to purchase, and which I imagine are contained in these letters—I have not read them. (MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE now applied to have the whole correspondence read, but THE COURT considered it necessary to prove how first they were found, and that it would be necessary to prove a very strong agency to bind the defendant by them.)

THOMAS DENCE (re-examined). I did not personally find these letters among the bankrupt's papers, but I saw a young man named Hastings find them at Mr. Stamford's, the official assignee's office—I have not bad a communication with Mr. Dales respecting these particular letters—I spoke to him generally about Parker—I have understood him that Parker was his agent—I have not heard him say so in those words, but in his general communications he has admitted as much.

WILLIAM TURNER (re-examined), I have not my books with me, and only those delivery orders that are before the Court—this is the order I received from Mr. Simpson—it purports to be three bales with a blank diamond—I believe it to be Dales' writing—the orders are all similar—I find a diamond without any mark 228, 229, and 230.

JOHN COLLINGWOOD . I am superintendent of the Beehive-yard—I believe I received eight bales marked with a blank diamond, 231 to 238, about 27th July, if you will let me look at the papers. (MR. TAYLOR stated that he should require the order to be proved, at the prisoner stated that it was not his writing; and MR. TURNER being unable to prove it, MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE stated that he would not press the matter.)

HENRY SIMPSON (re-examined). The three bales, 228, 229, and 230, were not consigned by me to my friend Mr. Hezekiel—I sold them here to Mr. Wilhelms on my own account—I made an advance on these goods to Mr. Dales—(MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE stated that he could not carry the evidence upon this point further, and therefore should rely upon the case of Messrs. Thompson.)

MR. TAYLOR to SAMUEL WOODHOUSE. Q. Did you not invoice these goods at very much beyond the market price? A. We did not; we considered they were worth the money, I mean the July goods—I have never said that I would put them at a high price—Mr. Thompson, one of my partners, is here—I did not tell you that about 20th or 21st August I wrote a letter and at that time had perfect confidence in Dales' straightforwardness—I signed a letter to a newspaper previous to our bankruptcy and after his—I believed;

at that time that he had an interest in the Canada Railway—I was shown a letter written by Mr. Robert Watson to our bankers—I am not clear as to the date when we received the bond, I believe it was on 2d august—there was a correspondence between Watson and Moillet and Company—I some time afterwards saw a letter of Mr. Watson's to Messrs. Moillet, our bankers; I cannot give you the date—it was previous to his bankruptcy—after seeing that letter I still believed him to be a straightforward and honourable man, and that he was interested in the Brockville and Ottawa Railway—the bankers showed me the letter—I believed him honourable until we had the meeting on the 23d when I found the goods all gone to Simpson's, and he said he had had no advance upon them.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Had Mr. Thompson anything to do with this affair that you know of? A. No; not that I know of.

JOHN THOMPSON (Cross-examined by MR. TAYLOR). Q. Were you partner with Mr. Wood house, of Birmingham? A. Yes; our bankruptcy took place in September, 1860—I knew Dales in the beginning of June, 1860—I remember his coming down to Birmingham either the end of May or the beginning of June—there were some bills given to him in the commencement of June—they were not exactly accommodation bills—Mr. Woodhouse gave the 4,000/. worth which are due, with my knowledge—they were accommodation bills in a certain sense, be gave us some bills in return for part of the amount—I am sure of that—they are in the hands of the official assignee at Birmingham—I cannot say whether that was on 5th May, but I think it was not so early—there were bills given at different times—the first bills I believe were given in London—I believe there was an arrangement made somewhere in May, to let him have 4,000/. on accommodation bills—I am not aware that that was to assist him in carrying on his patent for deodorising the Thames—he was our debtor at that time largely, but there were some securities—there is a list of them in the hands of our solicitor—I am not aware that there was a negociation between us for the assignment of the patent to us for disinfecting the Thames; not so early—I cannot fix the date when we first heard of that patent—I think I heard it mentioned before June that there was such a patent—when it was arranged between us that 4,000l. in accommodation bills should be given, I do not remember Mr. Dales telling me that he could get about eighty per cent. advance on goods if I would send them up—there was a bill coming due at the end of May of 849/. 15s. 5d.—I was from home when that bill became due—I was not in London in the beginning of July—I may have dined with my partner, Mr. Woodhouse, and Mr. Dales in London early in July, but I do not recollect—he was indebted to us in the beginning of July to a certain amount—the goods we sent to him were sent in the regular way—I do not remember the meeting in London you refer to—we had no difficulties then—we may have dined at the same place—I remember him calling at Anderton's hotel; that was the hotel I stopped at when I was in London—I dined there with my partner and Mr. Dales; we could not discuss his difficulties there because we expected an amount of money from him—he had promised to pay us 3,000l. or 4,000/. in the beginning of August—I do not recollect any meeting at the beginning of July at which we discussed his difficulties—Mr. Woodhouse managed these matters himself with Dales—the first time I saw Dales was in the month of June—I was not in London when Dales gave the assignment of his property; I was in Birmingham—I recollect the receipt of this letter of 2d August (produced) we were in no difficulties at all at that time—we bad never had a returned bill at that time—no arrangement had been made

that we should endeavour to raise money on the bond—I have never seen Mr. Watson of Canada at all.

COURT to THOMAS DENCE. Q. What is the amount of debts and liabilities in the second acct.? A. 55,861l. 9s. 9d., and the nominal assets 33,501/., but actually only about 1,000l., I believe—I believe 1,000l. has actually been realized—some of those assets are in the hands of creditors—I get the 33,501/. from the front sheet—everything after that amount, at the bottom on the creditor side, is simply matter of account—this valuation of the goods is an account rendered by one of the creditors—it is his and the bankrupt's valuation—he said that the goods were worth that and the bankrupt said so too—it is their representation together.

MR. LEWIS. Q. Then the valuation of 1,300/. was not the valuation of Carlton and Co. or of the assignees? A. No.

GUILTY on the first ten Counts, applying to the goods of Woodhouse and others.

Confined Twelve Months.

THIRD COURT. Friday, September 26th, 1861.


Before Robert Malcolm Kerr, Esq.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-800
VerdictNot Guilty > directed

Related Material

800. THOMAS QUINLAN (18) , Burglariously breaking and entering the dwelling-house of Henry Harris, and stealing therein 12 spoons, value 2l. 8s., and other articles, value together 4l. 6s. his property.

MR. BESLEY conducted the Prosecution.

JESSIE PEACOCK . I am servant to Mr. Harris, of Duncan-terrace, Islington—on 15th August I went to bed at half-past 10 o'clock—I had shut up the premises at 20 minutes past 10—I got up at half-past 6 the next morning, and upon coming downstairs I observed the back parlour blind cut down and the window pushed down—I am sure that I had shut the window the night before—I also found the two back doors open, which led into the garden—I went into the kitchen and noticed all the things taken out of the drawers, and sixteen silver spoons were gone, and a silver milk jus;, two shirts, two table-cloths, a sheet, and a small sum of money—I gave information to the police.

ALEXANDER TURNER . I am a gaoler at the Clerkenwell police-court—I hid the prisoner in my custody on 23d August, and he was in my custody previously—he had been before the Magistrates on that day, and had just returned—when I took him into my room he said he wished to see the constable—I said that I did not allow constables to see prisoners when in my care—I asked him what he wanted to see the constable for—he said he wished to make some statement, to tell who the others were; he did not see why the others should escape and he should suffer—I said, "You are a fool, you had better hold your tongue and say nothing"—he said he did not care—I then put him in a cell—I had occasion to go to the cell two or three times after that, and once when I went he said, "You have not brought the constable yet"—I said, "No; I don't think I shall," or something to that effect—he said that he must see him—I said that I should see—I then went away—I had occasion to go back again, and as he kept calling me I got the constable at last—I took the prisoner out of the cell into my room at his request, and he then said to Tidy that he wished to make a statement to

him—Tidy said, "If you wish to say anything to me, put it down in writing"—the prisoner said that he could not write—he asked me to write it down—what I wrote were the exact words that he said—I read it over to him after I had written it—this is the paper (Read: "James Gorman, Rose and Crown; John Riley, Daniel Edwards, White Lion-street; on Thursday, at 12 at night, Riley got up on the window, Edwards got up after and out the blind down and gave to Quinlan; Gorman got in at window, Edwards ditto ditto, and then came down and opened the door; then Riley and Quinlan went in, and all took a part of the things, and sold them in Play. house-yard, to Robinson, for 2l. odd; short stature, whiskers; on Friday morning; sold at half-past 6, A.M.; Edwards has the knife that cat the blind.")

Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. Is this exactly what he said? A. Yes—he did not say "Ditto, ditto"—he said the same as the other, and I put down "ditto, ditto"—all the rest is word for word as he uttered it—the "short stature" applies to the previous man—I am quite sure that he said "A.M."—he used the word "Quinlan," Quinlan is himself—he did not say a word about its being "myself."

JOB TIDY (Policeman, N 154). On the morning of 16th August I went to the house of Mr. Harris, and found that the house had been broken into by the back window—I searched the garden and found a knife in the corner of the garden—I know the knife—it was the prisoner's.

COURT. Q. How do you know it? A. On the day before, about a quarter-past 3, I saw him beside Islington toll-gate, cutting holes in the public footpath to play marbles with—I spoke to him about it.

MR. BESLEY. Q. When did you take him in custody? A. On the 16th, about a quarter-past 8 o'clock, at the top of the City-road—I told him the charge—he said, "All right"—he was remanded, and I was afterwards sent for and saw him in the presence of Turner—I saw Turner write something down—the prisoner, previously to that, said that he wished to see me, to make a statement.

COURT. Q. Did he say that to you? A. Yes, previously; he said that he wished to make a statement about the robbery at Duncan-terrace—I told the gaoler of it—the gaoler let him into his room and asked him what he wanted—he said he wished to make a statement relating to the robbery—Turner said, "Here is a piece of paper, write it down if you have got anything to say"—upon that he asked Turner to write it down, as be could not write himself.

Cross-examined. Q. Was he taken out of his cell? A. Yes—he said at first, "I can't write it here, it is too dark;" that if he was let out in the light he would write it, and then in the room he said he could not write—we took him into the gaoler's room—I, and the gaoler, and Mr. Harris were there—it is a middling sized room—I did not see him, during that time, giving sly and furtive glances at the door—he did not try to get away while there—I did not lock the door—we were in the room about ten minutes—I did not keep tight hold of him all the time, nor was I between him and the door—I was behind him—the distance from the cell to this room is three yards—Turner brought him from the cell—I saw him brought—when I saw him with the knife opposite Islington toll-gate there were several other boys with him—he had the knife in his hand—he made a jump from me when I spoke to him, and then dropped it, and I took it up and then threw it down again—I am certain it is his knife—he attempted to escape when I first took him in custody, in the open street—he was very troublesome going to the station.

COURT. Q. Have you looked after those other men who are mentioned in this confession, as it is called? A. No—they were in custody and were remanded for four days, but there was not sufficient evidence—they did not put the prisoner in the witness-box—ht denied the statement at the police-court—I did not find the goods—he denied all knowledge of having them.

THE COURT considered that there was no case for the Jury.


23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-801
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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801. ANN EWINS (24), was indicted for wilful and corrupt perjury.

MR. DICKIE conducted the Prosecution.

SOMERS HIGGINS . I am a clerk to the Magistrates at Rochester-row Police-court, Westminster—on 14th August the prisoner summoned the prosecutor, Richard Bowden, to the police-court—I produce the original summons calling on him to appear on Wednesday next (after 7th August) to answer a charge of assaulting Ann Ewins—that was granted on a statement made by the prisoner to the Magistrate—on 14th August I was acting as clerk to the Magistrate sitting in Westminster police-court—the summons came to be heard on that day—the prisoner was the complaining party—she was sworn—I took down in writing the evidence that she gave (Reading: "Ann Ewins. I am the wife of Edward Ewins; he is a labourer; I live at 3, Gillingham-street; on the 6th of this month, in the afternoon, I went to sit with the defendant's wife; the defendant came in and said to me, 'You b----y cow, if you do not go I will make you,' and he struck me on the forehead with his fist; I ran out and he followed me on to the landing and beat me about the head, and then I ran out into the street, and he followed me there and kicked me in the side.")

RICHARD BOWDEN . I live at 9, Wilton-row, Pimlico, and am a coach painter—I was summoned to the Westminster Police-court on 14th August last, for an assault on the defendant—I saw the oath administered to her—the case was dismissed—I have heard the evidence, that she stated that on 6th August I assaulted her in the street, and kicked her on the side—I swear that that is false—I remained in my house at that time—I did not strike her outside the house at all—I have no vindictive feeling whatever—the prisoner complained to me the next day in the street, of the assault.

Prisoner. Q. Were you not locked up on 6th August at the Westminster Police-court? A. I was—that was for a dispute between another person and me on your account—it was not for knocking four of her teeth out, I believe there were two—that was not the fourth time I had been taken up—I never struck you.

COURT. Q. You never struck her on the day that she says you did? A. I did not—I said if she went forward it is feasible enough that I may have struck her while on the landing, but I believe in my own mind that I did not—I said that if she would apologise to me I would not press the case.

MR. DICKIE at the suggestion of the Court withdrew from the prosecution.


23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-802
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty; Guilty > unknown; Guilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude; Imprisonment > penal servitude; Imprisonment > penal servitude

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802. HENRY JAMES DUVALL (44), HENRY HAMILTON (25), and JAMES GODDARD (32) , breaking and entering the shop of William Frederick Weedon, and stealing therein 340 yards of cloth, value 232l.; to which


MESSRS. THOMPSON and LLOYD conducted the Prosecution.

ALFRED CLARK . I am porter to William Frederick Weedon, who carries on the business of a cloth dealer, at 149, Warwick-street, Regent-street—on

Tuesday evening, 20th August last, I left at 7 o'clock—that is the time the place closes—there was no one on the premises when I left, hut ray brother sleeps there by permission—the premises were closed by me—I have seen the cloth, and identify it—it was in its place in the shop on the evening when I left—this (produced) is some of the cloth—it is Mr. Weedon's—340 yards is the quantity that was found—the value of it is 232l.—this was a whole piece, and I presume the prisoners tore it from the piece—I have looked at all the cloth produced, and know it—it is Mr. Weedon's property, and was all on the premises that night—I went there on the Wednesday morning, about two minutes past—I opened the private door, and saw two pieces of cloth in the passage, one of them lying towards the door leading into the shop, the hack door being wide open—it was left locked the night before—there were marks on that door from a jemmy, or crowbar—it had been forced open—there were six distinct marks—that door leads into the place where the cloth was—I had locked it the night before—my brother sleeps in the house by permission from Mr. Weedon, for security—the order door is opened by a latch key—this (produced) is the key—I do not know either of the prisoners—I communicated with the police; not in consequence of any information—I saw the lad Anderson on the first hearing at at Malborough-street.

Cross-examined by MR. BESLEY. Q. You did not see Anderson on the morning of the robbery? A. No; not till I went to Marlborough-street.

Cross-examined by MR. PATER. Q. Are you quite sure that it was? o'clock on Tuesday when you locked up? A. Yes—there is no other porter employed there besides myself—I know, from hearing Anderson state it, that he is a tailor.

JAMES CLARK . I am the brother of the last witness, and sleep on Mr. Weedon's premises—no other person sleeps there—I came down at half-past 6 o'clock on Wednesday morning, the 21st—the premises were then safe—the passage and door leading into the shop were safe—I left to go to my work between a quarter and ten minutes to 7—the private door leading into the shop was safe then—I closed the outer door safely after me.

Cross-examined by MR. PATER. Q. Have you a latch-key? A. Yes—either myself or my brother have access to the premises.

GEORGE SILVERTON (Police-sergeant, C 16). I received information of the robbery on Wednesday morning, 21st August, at 10 o'clock—that was not from Anderson—in consequence of information, I went on the following morning, Thursday, between 9 and 10 o'clock, to 26, Bark-place, Bayswater, with another sergeant—I knocked at the door, and it was opened by Goddard's wife—after speaking to us she called Goddard, and he came—we said, "You received a lot of cloth here yesterday morning"—he said, "Yes are mistaken"—we said, "We know that you did, and we shall search your place"—we then went downstairs into the front kitchen, and there we found, lying in one heap, nine or ten rolls of cloth, of which this is some—Goddard was told by sergeant Cole that he must consider himself in custody as being one concerned in committing a robbery—we then proceeded to remove the cloth from the kitchen to a cab which we had waiting outside—while we were there the prisoner Duvall was brought into the front kitchen by, I think, constable Brown—he was detained there—the cloth was pot on the cab, and then a horse and cart drove up—Hamilton was let in by Brown, and shown downstairs—I was standing there in charge of Goddard and Duvall—Hamilton came to the bottom of the stairs, and said to me, "You have sent for me to take away this stuff, and the b----slops are all round

the house"—that is another name for plain clothes—we were all in plain clothes—Cole then went out to take charge of the horse and cart, and while doing so Hamilton tried to escape—he got out into the street, and was brought back by sergeant Cole—we removed the cloth and the prisoners to the station.

Cross-examined by MR. BESLEY. Q. Does Duvall live about two or three doors from that house? A. Yes—I do not know what business he is—he was in the house when the horse and cart came up, and after that came Hamilton made his appearance.

Cross-examined by MR. PATER. Q. You say that Hamilton came up with a horse and cart? A. Yes—we had been in the house from twenty minutes to half an hour, I should say, before that—Goddard's wife was the first person we saw, and we were afterwards introduced to Goddard by her—no one else was present then except the two constables—I know that a horse and cart came up, because Hamilton said so—I was in charge of Goddard and Duvall at the time, in a small room, the front kitchen.

COURT. Q. Were there any policemen round the place? A. No—we were in the house—a mob had collected round the door when we went in—I do not believe any policemen were outside the house—we placed Brown at the back, while we went to the front and knocked at the front door—we had been in the neighbourhood sometime before we went there—the back door runs into a mews—there was a great deal of confusion with Goddard's wife—she went on a great deal—I think it was sincere—she fainted away.

CHARLES COLE (Police-sergeant, C 23). I went with Silverton to 26, Bark-pace, Bays water—we went to the front door, leaving Brown at the back—the door was opened by a woman—I do not know whether it was Mrs. Goddard—she called Goddard, and I said to him, "Good morning; did you have a cab come here yesterday between 8 and 9 o'clock?"—he said, "No, sir"—I said, "Are you sure of it?"—he said, "Yes, sir"—I said, "Did you have a cab come here with some cloth?"—he said, "No; you make a mistake"—he stooped down and commenced rubbing his leg, as if rubbing the mud off his trousers—I said, "We are both police-officers; we must make a search"—we made a search, and in the kitchen found this cloth, and a quantity of other—I told Goddard he must consider himself in custody for being concerned with others in breaking and entering a house in Warwick-street, Regent-street, and stealing the cloth—I cannot say whether I mentioned the name of the house—he made do reply—afterwards I was downstairs in the kitchen, and saw Duvall walking up the garden towards the back-gate in the rear of the house—I went upstairs and called him by name—I said, "Harry, come inside along of me"—I have known him for many years—he said, "What does this mean?"—I said, "We will see when we get inside," or nearly, it is a month ago—he said, "It is a bad job, I have only just come into the house"—I said, "You must consider yourself in custody for being concerned with the others in breaking into the shop and stealing the cloth"—this vat downstairs—I took him downstairs and left him in charge of Silverton—I first saw him in the yard, going out towards the back-gate—while I was downstairs searching the drawers, Silverton called me—I was in the back-kitchen and he was in the front—I heard a cart drive up just previously—I went out of the back towards the front, and in the passage I saw Hamilton—I said to him, "Good morning," or words to that effect—he said, "What do you mean?" or something—he wanted to go up stairs—I said, "No you won't go up here, you must consider yourself in custody for being concerned with the others in stealing this cloth"—he said, "What do you mean? I am a respectable man,

you will have to pay for this, if you stop me; I have come here to see this lady," meaning Mrs. Goddard—I said, "You and I know each other, it is no use your bouncing me"—I then left him in charge of Brown whom I told to take care of him—I then went outside to see who was in the cart—just before I reached the bottom of Bark-road, in Moscow-road, I heard the door slam, and saw Hamilton running at the top of his speed up Bark-road—I pursued him about a quarter of a mile, and struck him with my truncheon on the shoulder—I said, "This is no more than I expected"—he begged of me not to hurt him—I put him in a cab and took him back—the hone and cart were gone when I got back—I have known the three prisoners before, and have seen them in company—the three I have not seen in company more than two or three times, but two of them I have seen together seven or eight times.

Cross-examined by MR. HOLDSWORTH. Q. Had you been on the beat in this neighbourhood? A. Never in my life—when I saw Duvall walking towards the mews, it might be perhaps seven or eight minutes after we came into the house, I cannot say exactly; Goddard's wife went into hysterics, and we were some time with her; we had to hold her—that occupied perhaps ten minutes—it was in the front kitchen, which is below the level of the ground—I saw Duvall from the back kitchen window—that was the first he had seen of me at that time—probably he saw us come into the house; they live in the front kitchen—I did not see Duvall when I went in—there are two ways of leaving the kitchen—I think there were a few flowers in the garden—there is a gate opening into it from the mews—he said, "This is a bad job," and I told him that he must consider himself in custody for breaking and entering the place, and stealing cloth with others; I cannot exactly remember the words—and then he said he had just come into the house—I am quite sure he said "The house"—he did not merely say, "I have only just come in here," but "into the house"—I was not calling to him: I was close to him, looking out of the first-floor window—he was about twenty yards off at first, but when I spoke to him I was close to him—I have seen Duvall with Goddard before—I know Duvall's father and mother well—he was a cabman when I first knew him.

Cross-examined by MR. PATER. Q. Do I understand you that you, Bran, and Silverton, went to the house together? A. Yes; it might have been half-past 9; I think it was the morning of the 22d, Thursday—I told Brown to go to the back-door—we were at the front and sent him round to the back, from the corner of the street—I and Silverton left there after Brown was placed at the back-door—very likely we were in the neighbourhood twenty minutes before that—I went and made every inquiry before that—I met Hamilton at the bottom of the kitchen—he did not make use of any expression like, "Who's this bloke?"—I did not take him for one of the lodgers; I knew him well—I believe the house is let out in tenements—I believe three females live there—I was in the back-kitchen when I heard the horse and cart come up—I saw Hamilton two or three minutes after that—the horse and cart were perhaps a 100 yards off—I was in the back kitchen—there was no confusion where I was; there was nobody there but myself—Hamilton left the house after the conversation that I had with him after I had left him in charge of the constable—I apprehended him after that, as soon as I could catch him—I suppose the time between my apprehending him at first, and securing him again, was about five minutes—I did not receive any description of him—I have been examined before the Magistrates—I have mentioned about taking him in consequence of a description

that was given me—I took the whole three in consequence of a description I had of them—I received the description from three or four different persons—I think Anderson, one of them, is here—I cannot recollect now exactly the description given of Hamilton, but it was a description that tallied very well with him—Anderson described him, I think, as wearing dark clothes—I apprehended him in his present dress (a light suit)—I had tot seen this horse and cart at a public-house in the neighbourhood, before I entered the house, I am quite certain of that—there is a beer-shop about fifty yards from this house—I never saw the cart at that beer-house—I left Hamilton with Brown that I might secure the horse and cart—I bad to go upstairs through the passage, out at the front door—I did not meet Mrs. Goddard there—she had fainted long before that.

CHARLES BROWN (Policeman, M 304). I went in company with Silverton and Cole, on the morning of the 22d, to Bark-place, Bays water—I was placed at the back-door—just about the time sergeants Silverton and Cole entered the front of the house, Duvall escaped by the back-door from the house—I heard the bolts of the door undrawn very quickly, and he came out, and a woman followed him—he said, "Good morning, sir"—I said "Good morning, you are not going to leave this house?—he said, "Why not? I live at No. 5, Bark-place, allow me to go home"—I said, "No; I shall not, I shall take you back to the house you have just left"—I took him back along the garden—as I was going along the garden I passed sergeant Cole; I took the prisoner downstairs along the kitchen and handed him over to sergeant Silverton—I heard a knock at the door, opened it, and Hamilton was there—he said, "Is Mr. Goddard in?—I said, "Yes, he is," and he walked downstairs—I said, "This gentleman wanted Mr. Goddard"—and after some few words he turned round, and said to Goddard, "Why did you send for me while all the slops were in the house?" meaning the police—there was a hone and cart at the corner of the street—I remained in the house with all three prisoners—sergeant Cole went out to look after the man with the horse and cart—Hamilton escaped from the house, I gave chase to him with sergeant Cole, and he was stopped, and taken back to the house.

Cross-examined by MR. HOLDWORTH. Q. Is there a mews that runs at the end of the garden? A. Yes; a mews or a lane—I was in that mews—the back garden of the house may be twenty-five or thirty yards long—I was not in the garden—I heard two noises; they might have been the drawing of a bolt and the lifting of a latch—Duvall came down the garden towards the mews—I was still in the mews then—a woman with a child in her arms came out with him—I cannot say whether that was Mrs. Goddard—I do not know Mrs. Goddard—I saw that woman afterwards in the house and she was in hysterics—I should not know her again if I saw her—I saw three or four women in the house—I believe it was not Mrs. Goddard who let him out, but I am not sure—she looked out at the door previous to Duvall's coming out.

Cross-examined by MR. PATER. Q. Did you see a horse and cart at a public-house, about fifty yards away from this house? A. Yes; I saw that after I let Hamilton in—I had not seen it there before—if it had been there before, I am sure I should have seen it before—I cannot say that I heard it drive up—all I know is that Hamilton knocked at the door and inquired for Mr. Goddard, and I conducted him down-stairs—the horse and cart was then at the bottom of the street, by a beer-shop—I told sergeant Cole that it was standing there—it did not drive to the door of Goddard's house at any time to my knowledge—I was in the kitchen—I did not take Hamilton

down—I told him Mr. Goddard was in the kitchen, and I followed him down—he was taken into custody there and then, and told he was not to leave the house—he told me he was respectable—Duvall and he went into the back kitchen, and he caught hold of the banisters and got up-stairs—he was afterwards taken by sergeant Cole—I saw the cabman on the night of 21st—he was not in charge of this horse and cart—he was the cabman who took the cloth from the house—I had a full view of Hamilton—I never received any description of him—Cole was running after him all the time—Hamilton heard me shout, "Stop thief!"—I did not want a description of him.

THOMAS POTTER (Police-sergeant, D 2). I remember the day when this robbery took place—I know the prisoners—I saw them in company on the night before the robbery in a beer shop in the Moscow-road, close to where Goddard and Duvall lived.

Cross-examined by MR. HOLDSWORTH. Q. Is the beer shop close to the houses of Goddard and Duvall? A. Yes; they were talking together.

Cross-examined by MR. PATER. Q. How long have you been in the force? A. Fourteen yean; Moscow-road is close to the house where Goddard tad Duvall were taken—I do not know the landlord's name who keeps the beer shop—I know him very well—I did not inquire his name, there was no occasion to do so—I have been in that public-house and billeted soldiers there, but I do not know the man's name—the last time I went in was twelve month ago—that was to have a glass of beer—I have billeted soldiers there since—I cannot tell how long it was after I had that glass of beer, that I billeted the soldiers—I have been there three or four times since then—I never saw Hamilton or Duvall there at that time, but I have since and previously—I have seen Goddard and Duvall in this public-house in company, before the night previous to the robbery, but not Hamilton—I had not seen Hamilton for four or five yean until that night—I had forgotten him—I had to go back some yean to ascertain who he was—I had seen him a good many yean ago—I was not examined before the Magistrate; I was there ready.

WILLIAM JAMES HOLDEN (Police-inspector, C). I examined Mr. Weedon's premises in Warwick-street where the robbery was committed—to the beet of my belief the parties entered by a skeleton-key to the passage-door—I examined the door leading from the passage into the shop, and found air marks between the door and door jamb, as if caused by a small jemmy—the outer door had marks of being forced—there were some desks in the shop, on the right-hand side, behind the door—they were broken open by means of a small jemmy—I received the three prisoners into my custody—the lad Anderson came to the station and into my office—I said, "To the best of my belief we have got three men for the robbery in Warwick-street; I will have those placed with a number of others, so that you may have the means, in a fair way, of identifying them from the others"—I spoke to the superintendent, and by his orders I had eight or nine men, living in the section-house, dressed in plain clothes, brought up and placed in the reserve-room with the three prisoners—I took Anderson into the room, and he picked the three prisoners from the others—I won't be certain whether there were eleven or twelve altogether—none of my men had on police trousers or police boots—it was the particular order of the superintendent that they should not wear them—the prisoners were not placed in any peculiar position—they were mixed with them.

Cross-examined by MR. HOLDSWORTH. Q. Is the section-house close to the station? A. Yes; it is connected with the station—we have to go down

some steps to the section-house—they communicate with each other through the basement—the reserve room is at the rear of a passage leading from the front door—my room is half-way between the passage and the reserve-room—that passage does not communicate with the section-house at the other and—you have to go down some steps close against the reserve-room, and they lead into the section-house—a person going into the section-house from the station, would not pass along by my room—a person seated in my office could not see any person entering the reserve-room—the passage runs right through from the front door—about the centre of the passage is the door that leads into my office—then there is another outer door owning from our office, which leads into the reserve-room; you have to come out into a further passage to go into the reserve-room; and at the commencement of the reserve-room there are steps which lead into the section-house—Anderson remained in my room while the men were brought into the reserve-room, and he could not have seen them brought in—the three prisoners were placed in the dock before they were brought into the reserve-room—they were in the reserve-room when Anderson was taken into my office—they did not come past my office to go into the reserve-room, while Anderson was there—the men were not standing all in a row against the wall, but grouped together, standing in and out—it is not true that the three prisoners were as one side of the room, and the other men on the other, nor in a line against the wall—I am quite sure of that.

Cross-examined by MR. PATER. Q. Were they not divided by a zinc fireplace? A. No; I mean to swear that there was not a zinc fire-place separating the prisoners from the policemen—I can swear that there were eight or nine policemen present—the policemen were not together, and the men together—the reserve-room is a large place; not larger than this Court—I told the boy that I believed that the men who committed the robbery were taken into custody—certainly it is customary with inspectors of police to tell persons who have given information, that they believe the men who have committed a robbery are in custody—the police and the prisoners were all mixed—they were grouped together—the prisoners were not together as they are now; they were scattered with our men—our superintendent of police was with me when I went with Anderson to identify the men—he is not here—the men were not opposite the door—they were at the farther end of the reserve-room, all together—the three prisoners were not flanked on either side by policemen—they were all together—I heard Ander son say that they were dark clothes that Hamilton wore—I was in the reserve-room with him about two or three minutes altogether—there is an iron fire-place in the room, but not a sinc one—the three men were not on one side of it and the policemen on the other—they were all together on the right-hand side of the fire-place—the fire-place is on the right-hand side of the room as you enter.

JURY. Q. Had the policemen coats on? A. Yes; all coats, except one who had a jacket on—there were none in shirt sleeves—they were all dressed like ordinary men, in their ordinary way of business—there was nothing particular by which they could be recognised as men of the force.

COURT. Q. Had the boy any difficulty in picking out the prisoners? A. No; the only difficulty he bad was with respect to Hamilton, who, he said, wore dark clothes when he saw him.

ANDREW ANDERSON . I live at 3, Upper John-street, Golden-square, with my parents, and am a tailor—on Wednesday morning, 21st August, I was coming down Warwick-street at half-past 7 in the morning—I saw a cab at

the door of Mr. Weedon's shop, and the prisoners Duvall and Hamilton each brought out a roll of cloth and pot it on the cab; there was a great quantity inside the cab—it came out at Mr. Weedon's private door—I have made a mistake, it was Hamilton and Goddard that came out—Duvall got on the box and drove off—I heard afterwards of the robbery and then gave the number of the cab, and the description of the men—I took the number of the cab—Hamilton had on a dark coat that day—I saw the three men when they were in custody, amongst nine private clothes policemen—I was takes into a room where they were mixed with the men, and I picked them out—I did not know any of the policemen before—I did not know who they was when I went in—I did not know till afterwards, that they were policeman—I have no doubt about Duvall being one of the men that I saw, nor about Hamilton.

Cross-examined by MR. HOLDSWORTH. Q. Which side of the street were you on when you saw these men come out? A. On the same side—I was standing at the corner when they put the cloth on the cab—that was about six yard distant—I passed the cab, and stood there and took the number—when I passed the cabman was with the cab—the prisoners were coming out with the cloth and I walked on a little further, and turned round and stood—the person that I now say is Duvall, was on the pavement between the door and the cab when I passed—he got up on to the box of the cab and went away—the other two men did not get into the cab—they went round Glass-house street—the one that got on to the box was the only one that went away with the cabman—the other two men went right to the back of the cab—the cab turned round—it did not pass me—the door was open when I passed the house, and the men were just coming out—my attention was principally attracted by the door being open, and the cloth coming out—I was taken to the police-station and told the three men were in custody—they were not placed in a line—they were all round the room—they were away from the wall—they were not standing like the people that are behind me now; but more as if they were ranged round the wall—when I went into the room the prisoners were not standing either in front of, or behind, the other persons—I had to look till I saw them—I picked them out at once—the transaction at the door was over very quickly—it lasted about a minute.

Cross-examined by MR. PATER. Q. There is an iron fireplace in the room, is there not? A. I did not notice any fireplace—I did not say when I get to the Vine-street police-station that I had some doubts as to whether Hamilton was the man—I did not say anything about having any reason to be doubtful because of his having on different clothes at the time—he had dark clothes on at the time—I did not say at Marlborough-street that I should not like to swear to his identity—I had no doubt—I did not express any doubt on any occasion—the three men did not pass into the room first—they came in all together—the three prisoners were not together in a group when I picked them out—I was at the door, and they were in the room—there might have been a fireplace there—I do not know—I did not see Hamilton for more than a minute on that morning—I am quite sure I never said that he was not the man at all, nor anything like it—I said I could not swear how many men there were in the room—I will not swear there were more than five—I was told so afterwards by several people—I do Dot know who told me—I did not count them—I do not swear to there being nine.

MR. THOMPSON. Q. About how many people were in the room were these men were? A. About nine besides the three prisoners.

COURT. Q. Had the policemen any of them blue trousers on? A. No;

they had neither police trousers or boots—my attention was attracted because I thought it was either a robbery going on, or something not right, somebody moving away without paying rent or something—I scratched the number of the cab with a piece of hard pipe-clay on a comb—I had nothing else with me—I have got the comb here; but it is not on it now.

RORERT BUSH . I am a cab-driver, and live at 24, Edward-street, Dorset-square, Marylebone—on Wednesday morning, 21st August, I had a fare from between Leicester-street, and Burlington-street, Regent-street, to Warwick-street—Goddard engaged me—no one was with him—I had to pass through Glass-house-street—there was a coal waggon there—while going through there Goddard said, "We expect the bailiffs in"—I did not know who he meant by "We"—the coal-waggon stopped the way, and I had to pull up the horse—it was while in that position that Goddard said, "We expect the bailiffs in;" he also said, "I think you are going in the direction of the Elephant and Castle"—after some little time, when the man had moved his horses, I turned round the corner with him into Warwick-street, and there I took up the property—I stopped next door to a public-house at the corner—nobody went in there—when I stopped, I got down from the cab, and helped Goddard and another man in with six parcels of cloth without anything round them—I cannot swear to anybody; but I believe Hamilton to be the other man—he looked fatter then—he has fallen away since he has been in prison if he is the man—the cloth was put inside the cab—I got up on the foot-board and put two rolls outside—I then drove away—previous to driving away the ether man told me look at the direction—a tailor standing next doer said, "You will know where to go to, there is the direction outside"—I drove down Marlborough-street, through Regent-street, and got down at the corner of Jermyn-street—while I was looking at the direction there, Goddard came up and got on the box, and went with me to Crawford-street—he then got down, and Hamilton got up, and we went to Bark-place, deposited the property there, and he gave me a bob, and I went to a public-house in the Moscow-road—I think I was there something like an hour—I had one or two half-quarterns of rum, it might have been three; and I won't swear it was not four—the landlord was telling me about being down at the Crystal Palace the day previously; that he was a member of the Foresters—whilst in conversation, Duvall spoke to me—I believe that is his name—I went with him, and we got tight; that is all about it—we went from Moscow-road, and pulled up a great many times, and had a drop here and there several times—I was driving the cab; and he was sitting outside.

Cross-examined by MR. HOLDSWORTH. Q. The first you saw of Duvall was in the public-house in the Moscow-road? A. Yes—up to that time Goddard and Hamilton were the only men with me—I had been in the public-house a long while when Duvall came in, and then we drove off and were drinking together the remainder of the afternoon—we pulled up at every house where I went to.

Cross-examined by MR. PATER. Q. Did they pay you your fare? A. I never had a brown from anyone—I never had a penny-piece—I was examined at Marlborough-street—I do not know whether that was about a month ago—I don't think it is—I do not swear to Hamilton in respect of his being at Warwick-street—I should be very sorry to say so; for I don't believe he is the same person—I cannot swear to him being there—I will swear to him coming with me to Crawford-street.

MR. PATER called

FRANCIS EDWARD HELYER . I am a bootmaker, of 3, John-street, Lambeth

—I was in company with the prisoner Hamilton on Wednesday morning. 21st August, from twenty minutes past 7 to twenty minutes past 10—I went to his residence at 13, Palace-road, Westminster-road, and remained there till 10 o'clock—I then proceeded with him and his sister to the SouthWestern railway-station—I know it was the 21st, because Tuesday, 20th August, was a grand day at the Crystal Palace, the Foresters' fete; and I accompanied his sister there—while we were there, she was sent for by an aunt in the country who had been taken suddenly ill—during those there hours I did not lose sight of the prisoner for more than ten minutes at a time—he went several times from the parlour to the kitchen, merely to assist his sister in preparing for her departure—he did not leave the house—we went to the South-Western Railway together—the sister left at a quarter past 10, and the prisoner and I left the platform, and came down the steps together—we separated at the bottom of the steps, and I went to my residence—the next time I saw him was in the House of Detention.

Cross-examined by MR. LLOYD. Q. Where was it you saw him at twenty minutes past 7? A. At his residence, his mother's house, Palace-road, Westminster, close to Astley's Theatre—I looked at my watch, because I did not know whether his sister would leave by the half-past 7 or the half-past 10 train; and I found, that if going by the half-past 7, we had only ten minutes to get to the station—his sister's name is Isabella Swyer—his name is not Swyer—I believe he is a son by a former marriage—I never asked—I have known him nine months.

COURT. Q. Were they to go by the half-past 7 train? A. She did not know on the previous night which she would have to go by—I believe a cousin was to call in the morning to let her know—I looked at my watch before I started from my lodging—it was 7 o'clock when I left there; and I knew I should be early enough to accompany her—I had arranged to do that, the previous night, after returning from the Crystal Palace—the prisoner was up and dressed when I went in—I suppose he had had his breakfast—he had none while I was there—I did not go into the kitchen—I remained in the parlour all the time I was there—there was no appearances of breakfast in the parlour—they usually lived in the kitchen—the prisoner was dressed in the same suit that be now wears, and also the day before—he was not at the Crystal Palace—I saw him at his residence that night, about 9 o'clock, when his sister and I got home he was then at home, and remained all the time that I was there—he was sitting comfortably on the sofa—he was not drinking when we came in; but he did afterwards with me, and had a cigar—he had his boots on then—he afterwards had some ale and a cigar with me—in the morning, between 7 and twenty minutes past before I went to the house, I went to a coffee-shop in the Waterloo-road and had a cup of coffee—I was sitting on the sofa all the time I was in the house after twenty minutes past 7—the prisoner's sister was sometimes with me, and sometimes out of the room—I sat in the house the whole time from my arrival, till we left for the train—I was smoking part of the time—I did nothing else but talk—Hamilton was in the room with me, and also my sister and mother—no cousin called while I was there, and no cousin met us at the train—I believe he went down by an earlier train—his sister did not go down by the half-past 7 train, because she was not quite prepared, she could not get prepared in the time—she knew nothing about it till after we got home from the Palace the previous night—she told me that her cousin had left by an earlier train, and that she was to follow by the quarter-past 10 train—I do

not know whether the cousin called the night before after I left, or before I went there that morning—I understood in the morning from the convertion, that he had called, but I did not know which time it was—I believe one pot of ale was all we had the night before, and one cigar each—we divided the ale between us; his mother and sister both drank some of it—the sister saw me to the door when I went away—they hare a house of their own—we got home from the Foresters' fete about 9 o'clock at night; not to my own home—I believe it was about 11 o'clock or quarter to 11 when I left the prisoner's place—Hamilton had prepared to go to bed before I left—I did not hear the door bolted after I left—I am certain they did not breakfast the next morning while I was there, not in the room where I was—none of them were absent more than ten minutes—when I arrived there, I believe the lister was packing her boxes in the kitchen—we arrived at the Victoria station the night before, from the Crystal Palace, at about half-past—we walked straight up to their house, and found the prisoner there I heard on the following Saturday, the 24th, of his being taken in custody—the mother sent for me to say she wanted to see me—I went and saw her, and she showed me the letter sent by the prisoner to her—that was for me and her to go and see him at the House of Detention—I went there the same day, 24th August—she did not go with me—I saw the prisoner there—he was examined again on 30th August—I was at the police-court and heard the witnesses examined—I heard that the robbery was on the Wednesday morning—the mother was not at the police-court then, no one else besides me—I was not called upon to tender my evidence—I told the prisoner at the House of Detention that I could swear he was in my company three hours that morning—I went to the examination on 30th August, because I expected to be called—Mr. Wilson, a solicitor, appeared for the prisoner—I engaged him, and told him that the prisoner was three hours in my company that morning—I did not ask him afterwards why he did not call me—I asked Hamilton, and he told me that he was advised to reserve his defence—neither the mother nor the sister were at the police-court—the sister is still in the country.

MA. PAYER . Q. Do you know him to be a sign-painter? A. I believe him to be so—I saw him so engaged upon one occasion.

JANE SWYER . I am rather hard of hearing—I am the mother of Henry Hamilton, and live at 13, Palace-road, Westminster-road—the prisoner Hamilton was residing with me up to Wednesday, 21st August—I think it was about 10 o'clock when he left that morning—my daughter was sent for to go into the country on the 20th, and she went on the 21st, and he took her to the station—the train went at a quarter-past 10—Helyer, the last witness, also went with them—he called between 7 and 8 o'clock-Hamilton did not leave my house between 7 and 10 o'clock, because he was with me the greatest part of the time, assisting me in what I had to do—I have no other reason why I know it was Wednesday, the 21st, only I know that was the day—I remember there being a fete at the Crystal Palace on the 20th—my daughter was sent for by an aunt to go into the country—my son was at home on that evening—I saw him from about 9 o'clock till 11, when he went to bed—no one else was present besides myself and daughter when Helyer called in the evening—I do not recollect any one calling on the Tuesday between 9 and 11 o'clock—my daughter is in the country now.

Cross-examined by MR. LLOYD. Q. You say no one called on the evening previously? A. I do not recollect anyone calling—I cannot say that I saw my son every moment of the time between 9 and 11 o'clock—I was very busy—there was no one with him, unless be answered the door, which he

does at some times—the next morning I was preparing ray daughter to go into the country, helping her to pack—I think I was tip at 6 o'clock—I went and called Hamilton about 7 o'clock, as I always did—I have a clock in the house—I did not not go and look at it—I can hear it, although I am rather deaf—I get my living by letting lodgings—the house is full of lodgers—my husband does not support me—he does not do much; he is very much deranged in his mind—I have been married twice—the prisoner is by my first husband—that is how his name is Hamilton, and mine is Swyer—if I had known anything about it I should have gone to the police-office, but I did not know anything about it—he wrote to me a day or two after he was apprehended to tell me of his apprehension—I did not go the examination at the police-office after his apprehension—I knew he was not guilty, and I did not think there was any occasion to go, or else I should have gone—he wrote to me to tell me that he was accused of a robbery on 21st August—he said it was false.

MR. PATER. Q. And you were satisfied with his answer? A. Yes; I believed what he said—young Mr. Helyer came home with my daughter on the evening before—I do not remember anyone else being there beside.

COURT. Q. Where was your daughter on the 20th? A. At the Cryrstal Palace—I think it was about 9 or half-past when she got home with Helyer, but I cannot recollect to half-an-hour—the prisoner was at home when they came home, and had been home, it may be an hour, but I do not recollect exactly the time—he generally comes home about 7 o'clock, and then always has tea—he had his tea with me on that night—I think he had it rather later than usual that night, about 6 or a little before, because I think I waited for him some time—the daughter usually takes tea with us at the same time—I got the message about the aunt being unwell, whilst they were gone to the Crystal Palace—it is my own sister—my sister's son came up, and he and my daughter were going down together; only he went by the excursion, and she went by another train—he went about an hour before—he came on the Tuesday and said that if he could get a ticket for her to go by the excursion he would; but he could not, and so she was obliged to go by Another train—he went by excursion train at 8 o'clock—he did not stay at our house that night—he came at half-past 7 the next morning, and told us that he could not get a ticket, and therefore my daughter must go by train at a quarter past 10—we had not breakfasted when he came—we did not breakfast till after he was gone, between 8 and 9 I think—he had breakfasted—Helyer was there that morning, and partook of breakfast—we had breakfast together—Helyer sat down with us—the prisoner was up I think, when he came—I think he was getting up when he came—I had just called him—I think Helyer left just after 11 o'clock on the previous night—I know my son was just gone to bed when he left—I do not think Helyer saw my sister's son—I do not recollect whether he did or not—I cannot recollect whether he spoke to him; I believe he saw him—I never west to the police-court—I went once to see the prisoner at the House of Detention—I knew then that he was charged with robbery on that morning—I told Helyer to employ a solicitor—I did not see the solicitor.

JURY. Q. How does your son get bis living? A. He is a painter.

COURT to THOMAS POTER. Q. You have said in your evidence that you saw Hamilton with two others, in a beer-shop, the night before? A. Two others, and another not in custody; on the night of Tuesday the 20th—that beer-shop is in Moscow-road, Bayswater—that it was from half-past 8 to a quarter-past 10; I, and another officer named Doble, were watching them—I had received information that a robbery was to take place—I saw

Hamilton come out of the beer-shop and go towards Goddard's home, up Bark-place, with Duvall, who lived next door to Goddard—they went into Duvall's—I did not see them come out—I watched about ten minutes or a quarter of an hour—I did not know Hamilton at that time; I had known him before, but I had forgotten him—I have not the slightest doubt that he is the person—I remembered his face—I am perfectly sure about the time, because I remember that I left the Paddington police-station about—I returned straight back; I was on duty on that night, and I went home straight on purpose—I got back at about half-past 10; it might be a little later, a quarter to 11.

MR. PATER. Q. Did you enter the beer-shop? A. No, I was outside the whole time, watching them; a distance off—I went to another public-house and could not find them, and then I went to this beer-shop—I was waiting outside an hour and three quarters, at least—they were at the public-house all that time—I went to Marlborough-street police-court to give this evidence, but was not called as a witness—I presented myself as a witness, and was told by the inspector that I should be subpœnaed here—I cannot say whether Doble presented himself at the police-court—I remember warning him to attend, but whether he did or not, I do not know.

Q. Did you inform Inspector Holden that these men were two hours in the beer-shop? A. Not two hours; they might not be my words, but I went and gave information to the superintendent at Vine-street police-station; no, I forgot, I sent a written report—I did not tell the beer-shop keeper that his attendance at the police-court was necessary.

Duvall. Q. You state that you saw me at the beer-shop at the end of the street? A. The one at the end of the street—I think the landlord's name is Sandford—I do not say that I watched you and that man into a house—I saw you in the public-house—when you left you went towards your own home, No. 5, Bark-place—I know the beer-shop at the corner—No. 5 is on the right-hand side, the same side as the beer-shop.

Duvall. No, it is not; it is on the left; Goddard's house is No. 26, a few doors off. A. Well, that is the house you went into, I thought it was your house; I have seen you go in there numbers of times.

COURT. Q. How did you watch them? A. There were four, and as soon as I saw them go into the beer-shop we drew into a turning, I think, and then we looked through the window and saw them all talking together—there were three large lights round the shop—I was in plain clothes—I saw them distinctly in the beer-shop—Hamilton was not dressed then as he is now; he had a dark frock coat on.

DUVALL— GUILTY .**†— Six Year's Penal Servitude.

HAMILTON— GUILTY .*†— Four Year's Penal Servitude.

William Heathfield, a butler, gave Goddard a good character; but the officer Potter stated, that he had known him ten year as the constant associate of thieves, and that he had been concerned in at least a dozen plate robberies.

GODDARD.*†— Six Years' Penal Servitude.

FOURTH COURT.—Friday, September 27th, 1861.


Before Mr. Recorder.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-803
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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803. HENRY WATSON (20) , Stealing 1 watch, value 2l. 10s., the property of Eliza Wigley, from her person.

MR. KEMP conducted the Prosecution.

ELIZA WIGLEY . I am a widow, and reside at 4, Ebury-street, Pimlico—on 8th August, at half-past 3, I was coming out of the London tavern with two gentlemen, the prisoner pushed by me and I heard a snap at my chain, and saw it hanging down—I caught hold of him round the waist, and said, "You have got my watch"—he said, "No, I have not"—a policeman came up, and said he saw him do it—I got my watch again; a gentleman picked it up.

Prisoner. Q. Could I help pushing against you? A. You could have done so; pushing the way you did—there was no person between you and me—the people were standing still except yourself; they were passing in and out—there was no person pushing behind you, I can positively swear—I did not look at my watch to see the time—I am sure I had it when I came out, because I had my hand on it coming, down the steps, and all through the tavern.

THOMAS RICHARD BULTER (City-policeman, 619). About half-past 3, on 18th August, I was standing facing the door of the London tavern—I saw the prisoner and the prisoner come down the steps; she stood on the kerb, and I was standing almost touching her cape—the prisoner come down the steps out of the tavern, pushed by the lady, and I saw him with his hand this way (describing it)—the lady said, "You have got—"—I said, "Yes, I saw him take it"—he dropped the watch down by the side—a gentleman picked it up—two gentlemen came out of the tavern and passed between the prisoner and I, or I would have caught hold of him at once—on the stairs at the Mansion-house, the prisoner said to me, "You have no occasion to say you saw me take that watch or drop it; it will do you no good, and it will do me a great deal of harm."

COURT. Q. How was it that you did not mention that before? A. Another policeman came of and as he was committed for trial, I did not think I ought to mention it—I found 13s. 1d. on him, and this silk umbrella.

Prisoner. Q. Where were you at the time you saw me take this watch? A. Facing the door of the London tavern—I did not see you take the watch out of the pocket, but you passed your hand just by the side of the lady—she was dressed as she is now.

Prisoner's Defence. The watch was found inside the hotel; the gentleman brought it out.

ELIZA WIGLEY re-examined. That is not so; the gentleman picked it up close to me outside.

GUILTY .*†— Confined Twelve Months.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-804
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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804. JOHN RYAN (23) , Burglariously breaking and entering the dwelling-house of Maria Gosling, with intent to steal.

MR. ROSHER conducted the Prosecution.

RICHARD POUND (Policeman, T 267). On the morning of 2d September, about half-past 1, I was on duty close to Miss Gosling's house, and heard a disturbance among the dry leaves near the house—I stood for a moment and heard it again—I stepped on a little further and turned my light on—there was another constable with me—he said, "Look out, here is a case; the windows have been broken and the shutters cut"—I turned my light on to the shrubs and I saw the legs of a man standing against the wall—I immediately rushed through the shrubs and got hold of the prisoner—my

brother constable was then at the window which was broken—I brought the prisoner out of the shrubs; he had no shoes on—I took him to the window—there were some shoes lying there, and he said, "Those are my shoes"—he said to me on the road to the station, "What a fool I was to watch that property all day, and stop till night to get in; had you staid away ten minutes longer I would have been in and had what there was, and then I should have got away, if it had not been for you"—I produce some tools which the other constable found—I produce some mud that was stuck on the glass to prevent its falling, and some of the wood of the shutters and glass (produced)

Prisoner. Q. How far was it from the house that you caught me? A. I should think about four yards from the window—I did not state before that it was twelve yards—you told me more than once on the road to the station that if we had not come you should have got in.

WILLIAM MARTIN (Policeman, V 150). I was on duty in Witton-park on the morning of 2d September, between 1 and 3 o'clock, and met my brother constable not a great way from Miss Gosling's house—I heard a rustling of the leaves, very near the house—I went in the direction of the house, and found a pair of shoes, and a handkerchief—at the time the prisoner was about to be taken to the station-house, he asked me to let him have his shoes as his feet were sore—I also found this chisel, and these compasses (produced)—I afterwards examined the window, and noticed that the centre pane was broken, which would allow anyone's hand to go in to unfasten the window—you could not undo the shutters from the outside; they close inside—the window was thrown up, and the shutters had been cut away considerably—some of these pieces of wood were lying down, and some were hanging on the shutters—the shutters appeared to have been out by the chisel—I found they corresponded—on the way to the station the prisoner said he had intended to have some of the silver and gold which was in that room—I did not ask him to make any statement.

Prisoner. Q. How far was it from the window that you got my shoes? A. A yard and a quarter on the right of the window.

JAMES POOLE . I am butler at Miss Gosling's—I was away from the house on the Sunday morning at church—I laid the cloth for dinner, and after that I was out on the water, but was within sight of the house—I was not out of the house after half-past 6—there was some plate used at dinner—I fastened up the house, and the dining-room shutters—the window was fastened; it is never opened—it looks right out on to the shrubs—anyone can see through it right up the room, so I never undo it—the sash throws up—it would be necessary to break the glass first to open the window—I fastened up these shutters at half-past—they fold back into boxes, come to in the centre, and fasten with an iron bar—the policeman called me up, and I dressed myself and went down into the dining-room—I went to the window, and could just see where an entry had been made—there was a little opening—I undid the bar of the shutters, and found the window thrown up, and the pane of glass over the hasp of the window broken, and some mud and glass lying down inside between the window and the shutters—I was with Anderson, the gardener, on the Tuesday after, near the shrubs, and in some wire which is put to keep the rabbits off the flower beds, was this chisel (produced)—it does not belong to any person on the premises—I never saw the prisoner before.

THOMAS ANDERSON . I am in the employ of Miss Gosling, as gardener—on the Tuesday after the house was broken into, I found this chisel in the

garden—it does not belong to me—I had never seen it before—it was found in some wire round the flower beds—the chisel was compared with the marks, and there is paint on the chisel now of the same kind as was on the shutter.

Prisoner's Defence. I am not guilty of the charge laid against me.

GUILTY .— Confined Eighteen Month.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-805
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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805. GEORGE DREDGE (40) , Stealing on 1st April, 1860, 31 lbs. of metal type, and 1,500 metal printing types, value 5l. of Charles Skipper his master.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE, with MESSRS. POLAND and H. GIFFARD, conducted the Prosecution.

GEORGE SILLS . I am a printer's compositor, in the service of Messrs Skipper and East, who are printers and stationers, carrying on business at St Dunstan's-hill, in the City—I was an apprentice there—I knew the prisoner's father—he was in the employ of Messrs. Skipper and East in the position of what is called overseer—he had the control of the printing department—the prisoner was in the employment of Messrs. Skipper and East, as assistant overseer in the letter-press printing department—he had been there all the time I had, which is about nine or ten years—I was twenty-three last June—I have not been under the prisoner during all the time I have been at work there;—I have been under him about four years—I remember in January last receiving an anonymous letter at my house, 35 Green-street, Stepney—I was in bed, ill, when the letter came—I had not been to work that day—I read the letter, and in consequence of its contests I dressed myself and went to the private house of the prisoner, at princes street, Barbican, with the letter—I showed it to him, and told him I had received it—he read it, not aloud, and then said it was all nonsense, and I was not to take any notice of it on any account whatever, it was all stuff and nonsense,—he also said, "Oh, let it be till the morning," and he would see about it, not to take any more notice of it, as it was of no consequence—I then went away—I believe Mr. Dredge had the letter—I left it with him—this was from 10 to 11 at night, I cannot say exactly—I did not go to business on the following morning—I cannot remember whether I saw the prisoner or not—he sent down for me, but I was out—I believe saw him a day or two afterwards, I cannot say the exact day, I did not keep a memorandum;—I believe it was a day or two afterwards—he said it was all settled; he had been to Mr. Skipper, and it was all set right—he said he should like to find out who it was, and he would offer a reward for it but Mr. Skipper advised him not to do so—he said he told Mr. Skipper he about return what things he had borrowed, that he was going to sell his business and Mr. Skipper had offered to purchase it of him—when I showed the letter to Mr. Dredge he said I need not take any notice of it, because in less than three months the scoundrel would be found out, or something to that effect—Dredge's father's name was mentioned in conversation—about a few days or a week after this I received another anonymous letter—it was sent to me at Mr. Smee's, in the Commercial-road—I saw the prisoner, and gave it to him—I do not think he read it—I think he tore it up directly he got it he looked at it—to the best of my belief he did not read it—he took it from me—I told him when I gave it to him that it had come to me, and he tore it up, and threw it into the fire—he said it was all nonsense, some malicious vagabond had written the letter—I sent for him to Aldgate to give him this second letter—he came to me as I was unwell—I do not live there—I lived

then at 35, Green-street, Stepney—he came to me in Aldgate, at a coffee-house there—after that he sent for me to go to his house to see Mr. Bradstock to satisfy me that there was nothing whatever in it.

COURT. Q. Who is Mr. Bradstock? A. A detective from Scotland-yard.

MR. POLAND. Q. After these anonymous communications do you remember, sometime in May last, the prisoner speaking to you at Skipper and East's about some type? A. Yes; I do—it was about the second or third week in May, I cannot recollect the date—he spoke to me in May about the Bourgeois italic type—he told ma to get a fount of Bourgeois Italic and pack it up—I did so, arranged it, and packed it up in paper—before I packed the paper round it I took an impression of the type as it was arranged—this (produced) is it—I am able to say that it is the impression of that particular packet of type which is produced here—I have examined it since, and it is the type that I so arranged by the prisoner's desire—I saw it before the Magistrate, and it is the same type—after I had taken this impression of the type, I packed it in paper and wrote on it, "Must not be opened," by Mr. Dredge's direction—when I had done that I left the parcel near Mr. Dredge's counting-house, upon Messrs. Skipper and East's premises; near where the prisoner sat—I afterwards saw that parcel at the police-court, produced by the officer—the value of it was from 2l. to 3l.—a day or two afterwards the prisoner gave me directions to get a fount of Bourgeois Roman type—I did so, packed it up, and wrote on it the same as I did on the other, "Must not be opened," by Mr. Dredge's directions—I packed up from fifty to eighty pounds in weight of that type, which was from 9l. to 10l. in value—I carried some of that Bourgeois Roman to the prisoner's premises, at 36, Crutched-friars—they are at the back of Palmer and Button's, printers and stationers—Mr. Dredge's name was not up at all—it had Palmer and "Sutton Printing-Office" up over the door, but Mr. Dredge carried his business on there—a few days after this the prisoner gave me directions to go to Messrs. Caslons,' who are letter-founders in Chiswell-street—I have seen some of the packages of Bourgeois Roman type produced at the police-court by the officer—I identified those that I packed up, the Bourgeois Italic and the Bourgeois Roman—a day or two afterwards the prisoner gave me this card (produced)—I gave it to him first and he made an addition to it—he told me to write out what sorts were wanted to complete the fount at Messrs. Skipper's, and also to complete the fount they were getting up for him—I wrote upon that card some description of type, to complete the fount—I filled in the letters and the prisoner filled in the quantities on the card—he told me to take it on to Messrs. Caslons' and to bring enough type to complete the fount that he wanted—I then took this card on to Messrs. Caslons' and got from them a small package of type—that was on Skipper and East's responsibility—Mr. Dredge sent me for it on their account—I got an invoice with the type—this is it (produced)—it is a small quantity coming to 5s. 5d., and it is made out to Skipper and East—I took it to their premises direct from Messrs. Caslons'—I saw the prisoner at Skipper and East's, opened the packet, and he told me to take it round to his premises—I took it round some time afterwards—when I went with the officer, when the prisoner's premises were taken possession of, I found this identical package there—I kept possession of the invoice for my own satisfaction—the date of it is 7th May.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT PARRY. Q. I think you have been about nine or ten years in the service? A. Yes; I was apprenticed and

served my time there—I am still in the employment—I think it is fact that I bear a very high character there—I think that type of Caslons' is here or at the police-station—Messrs Skipper and East have not got it—is has never been used at all—I found it in the very identical state in which it was when I brought it from Messrs. Caslons'—Mr. Dredge's father was in the employment of Messrs. Skipper and East, I have heard, for fifty-four years—I believe young Mr. Skipper's father is alive—I have not seen him this last week or two—I do not think he is dead—he is about sixty years of age, I think—I cannot say whether it was two or three months ago when I last saw him—I did not see him at the Mansion house—I will swear that—I have not seen him at Mr. Humphrey's the solicitor's—I do not know whether it was in the street or in the shop that I last saw him—he looked very well—I have not spoken to him since the day I was apprenticed in 1854—I do not think he attends to the business, I have not seen him—the young gentleman is 23—I know that because he swore it at the Mansion-house—I have spoken to him since my apprenticeship, but I never saw him for two or three years after; I last saw him, last night at the place of business—the Bourgeois Italic, and the Bourgeois Roman type that I wrote on "Must not be opened," was never opened or used—Dredge told me he wanted to use them for a certain job when it came in—he had to chance getting the job, he hoped to get it—I think I am on friendly terms with him—I have not spoken to him since his apprenchension—before that we were on friendly terms—I had no unfriendly feeling towards him; I am sure of that—I had not a friendly feeling towards him; I had no feeling—I have no enmity towards him whatever—I treat him as I do anybody else—I know that directly after the fire at Skipper and East's, in March, 1860, Mr. Dredge did a few jobs for them, not before to my knowledge—he had a middling stock of type for the use of his office it was a very small office; he employed an apprentice and an errand boy—he did not employ two or three men—I have worked there myself, for Mr. Dredge, but I was in Messrs. Skippers' employ—I did not work for them, not after the fire—I do not know that Mr. Dredge lent the whole of his type to them after the fire—I am sure he did not, he did his own work—I will swear that he did not—I do not know whether old Mr. Skipper is here, he may be; I don't know that he has purposely abstained from being here—all Skipper and East's type was destroyed by the fire, except one or two forms—Mr. Dredge printed the work they had to do after the fire—I know that, I am sure of it, at his office, and with his type—I did not work there myself, I believe one or two of Skipper and East's men were send down—there were a great many orders on hand at the time of the fire—the prisoner's father has left since this affair—I really do not know whether young Mr. Skipper is here himself—I have seen him this morning, within the last hour or hour and half—I cannot swear that he is here now—I know of a printing job for a Mr. Strawmeyer, a label for some cement barrels a portion of that job was printed at his office—I swear I do not know that Keeling's price current was printed from Mr. Dredge's type, it might have been; to the best of my belief it was not printed on Skipper and East premises—I know that Ellis' broadside was printed by Mr. Dredge for skipper and East at his place—there is a person named Smith, a store-keeper, in their employ—I did not see him at the Mansion-house, he has gone now, he was there two or three days after the prisoner's committal—I have not heard that Mr. Humphreys has examined Smith three or four times—I should have heard it if it were so—printing was going on at Mr. Dredge's for one

or two months after the fire—he might hare done a job after that, I cannot my—I took a part of the Bourgeois Roman type to Mr. Dredge's premises, hot I cannot say which portion—all that was done in broad daylight, without any concealement—I do not know that Caslon's type was actually wanted for this job of Messrs. Skippers'—type deteriorates in Take by being used, it wastes; none of the Bourgeois Roman and Italic has been used, the panels hare never been opened—I do not know that the type that has been used by Mr. Dredge has been returned to Skipper and East's, I have been told that it has, I can't swear that it has—there was a young man named Tutt, an apprentice of Mr. Dredge's, he was examined at the Mansion-house—old Mr. Skipper has never been examined to my knowledge—I do not know that a certain printing, called royal-broadside, for a Mr. Bate, was done at Dredge's, or that some was done for a Mr. Stamp—I believe some for Drake was done there, I cannot say—I know that some broadside for Ellis and Son was done—the prisoner was not supplied by Mr. Dredge—I know that he printed some royal headings for the Bank of Austria, at his own place, for Messrs. Skipper and East—I do not known anything of a copper-plate press that was destroyed in the fire, and which he his never been paid for—I have heard that old Mr. Dredge used to carry on the business before his son did—I do not know that he was in the constant habit of sending type to Skipper and East—I occasionally worked on type belonging to Skipper and East, or Dredge, on Dredge's premises.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. For whom? A. For Mr. Dredge—Messrs. Skipper and East were not acquainted with that as far as I know—no work was done by Dredge, for Messrs. Skipper and East for two or three months after the fire—two of these papers (produced) are in the prisoner's handwriting—this other one is in old Mr. Dredge's writing—I cannot say in whose writing this first one is—I think these receipts (produced) are in the prisoner's writing—I hare not seen old Mr. Dredge here since I have been here.

COURT. Q. Have you printed cards for your own use at Skipper and last's? A. About eighteen months ago, I asked the prisoner if I might print some mourning cards for a relative who had died.

JAMES EDWARDS . I am in the employ of Messrs. Caslons, 22, Chiswell-street, letter founders—I remember in May last, this card (produced) being brought to me—it was for some type for Skipper and East—I gave diredtions to one of our men named Ryall, who is here, to select the type—it was given to the person who came for it, and booked to Skipper and East—I do not know whether it has been paid for.

(Cross-examined. Q. Do you know that Mr. Dredge has purchased type from Messrs. Caslons'? A. Yes; I dare say he has had 100l. worth for himself—I believe it was well known that he was a printer.

COURT. Q. In what time was that? A. In the last four or five years, hut the large bulk has been purchased within the last two years.

HENRY WILLIAM CASLON . The whole of the type mentioned in this invoice of 7th May, has been paid for by Skipper and East—it includes a parcel of type of 5s. 5d., on 7th May.

GEORGE MULLINEUX (City-policeman, 293). I was directed to watch Dredge's premises, which I did for about a fortnight before I searched them—it was on a Monday, I think, about 22d or 24th June, that I did so—I wised a great quantity of type there—a portion of it is here—among other there is the type which has been produced and shown to Sills—I took the

prisoner into custody, and going to the station-house he wanted to know who had split upon him.

Cross-examined. Q. Have you ever said that before? A. No—to the best of my belief he did not say that he could account for it all—he said at the station that he could explain it all; not going along—I don't think he told me that he could account for it—I gave my evidence before, at the Mansion-house—I have shaken hands with Mr. Dredge two or three times since this—I have not expressed any regret as to his position; I have asked him how he was—there were about five examinations at the Mansion-house—I might have seen old Mr. Skipper, but I do not know him—I have seen young Mr. Skipper—I do not know this healthy-looking old gentleman of sixty—I have never been introduced to him—I believe I was not examined by Mr. Humphreys, at the police-court, as to what I knew.

CHARLES SKIPPER . I manage the business of Skipper and East—it is my father's business entirely—he does not take an active part in the management of it—I have managed, going on for four years—my father is very infirm and unwell—he is not in a fit state to come here to be examined—the prisoner's father was in the employment of our firm, and had been for a great number of years—the prisoner was also in our employment, as assistant-overseer in the letter-press printing department, at a salary of 150l. a year, paid weekly—I was aware of the fact that he carried on a small printing business himself—he had no authority from us at any time to remove any type from our premises at all—I recollect the period of the fire which destroyed the greater part of our type—during that period we were obliged to send out our work to be done elsewhere, and employed seventeen or eightteen different printers—among others so employed was the prisoner—I had nothing to do with the order, the order was given by his father; I had nothing to do with that department in any way—I know as a fact that he did it—I know that an account was sent in for what he did; I have seen these accounts—they are not in his handwriting, they are in the writing of Donkinson, who was in our employment—the receipt is in the prisoner's handwriting—I cannot be certain whether these papers contain the whole of the work that he did, because I do not know what orders were given—as for at I know he was paid for all the work he did, and as far as I know there are no other accounts than these—I rather fancy that there was another account, I cannot say to what amount—to the best of my belief all the accounts have been paid—no claim whatever has been made—we got our premises to rights again about the beginning of this year—we have always carried on the printing business there—it has been done at No. 2 instead of No. 1, St Dunstan's-hill—we ceased to send out work to be done elsewhere soon after the fire—I think there was some printing done at Dredge's premises in June, after the fire; not later than that to my knowledge—he had no authority, after that time, to take type to his premises from ours, or at any time—I recollect hearing of an anonymous letter having been sent to Sills; the prisoner spoke to me about it—I did not ask him what the nature of it was, he informed me—that was in June last year—he told me that one of the apprentices had received an anonymous communication, accusing him of acting very dishonestly towards us, and he told me that in the emergency of the fire he had to borrow certain type of us, which he undertook should be returned—I told him that I would consider the matter, which I did; I gave him no answer at first—the following morning I spoke to his father—I did not tell the prisoner what passed between me and his father—I may have spoken to the prisoner again about it, but I do

not recollect—I received these two letters (produced) almost directly after the communication was made to me, and after I had seen the prisoner's fetter—the letters were sent down by hand, I suppose—they came in separate envelopes—this is the letter purporting to come from George Dredge—(This was addressed to the witness, enclosing the anonymous letter, thanking him for the interpretation put upon the unpleasant matter, and stating that he had made arrangement with the storekeeper)—I received the letters both together; they may have been sent together—I do not know whether or not after that some type was returned—I never made any inquiry—up to the time of the anonymous letter I was not acquainted with the fact that any type had been taken.

Cross-examined. Q. You know, do you not, from your father, that the prisoner's father was fifty-four years in the employment? A. He was thirty-five years there—I do not know whether that was at the commencement of the firm—there is not a gentleman named East in the firm—there was once—I have managed the business going on for four years—I managed it soon after I was twenty—it is more than three years—I never knew Mr. Dredge, sen. to manage the business—Mr. East did so before me, and my father managed the business up to the time that Mr. East took the management—that was about twenty years ago—my father has not managed the detail of the business since then—he has not come regularly—I last saw my father this morning—he is not at all well—he is not bedridden—he is able to walk out—he does not go out every day—he did not take any part in the proceedings at the Mansion House—he was not in court there—he was at the Mansion House one day for about a quarter of an hour—he has not been examined by Mr. Humphreys—I am certain of that—he has not seen him at all—instructions were given by my father to me, and from me to Mr. Humphreys—my father was last at business about a month ago—that is since the prisoner's apprehension—he has sot more than a general counting-house there—Mr. Dredge, sen. received a salary of 300l. a-year for managing the letter department of the business, and my father used to make him presents from time to time—he made him a present of 100l. last year—that was my father's doing—my father and I consulted together—my father very seldom comes to business—he has not been here at all during this trial—I have not been advised by Mr. Humphreys to keep him away—Mr. Humphreys was very anxious for him to come—we have a person named Smith in our employment as store keeper—I do not keep the books—I interfere with the active management of the business—the prisoner's father was deputed to order the types—I was not aware the prisoner had done so frequently, till these proceedings—I believe he has been twenty-eight years in our service—he gave us notice to leave three years ago, but not unless we raised his salary—he had 35s. a-week then, and his salary was raised to 3l. a-week—before that time I had nothing to do with the salary he was receiving—it came from his father—he was receiving journeymans' wages—he worked very hard after the fire—I shook hands with him—I don't remember saying I would never forget him—I thought that he had worked very hard—he was there several Sundays—I was there too—I do not know of this card (produced) being printed at our place—we have never been paid for the printing of it to my knowledge—Smith, the store-keeper, was examined by Mr. Humphreys—I don't know whether he went to his office on two or three occasions—he was not called as a witness—he was dismissed, to the best of my recollection, four or five weeks after the apprehension of Mr. Dredge—a person named May dismissed him with our

sanction—my father did not dismiss him—he knew of hit dismissal—he was not consulted about it—it was by the advice of Mr. Humphreys that we dismissed him—I believe the prisoner undertook that everything that had been taken should be returned, and that if any had been damaged we should have new in their place; something of that sort—everything was satisfactorily arranged—I have heard since that there was a copper-plate press belonging to the prisoner on our premises at the time of the fine—I was not aware of it at the time—if it was there it was destroyed—no chains was mode to me about it in any way.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE Q. Mr. Humphreys was instructed to mate inquiries into this matter, and he gave you the result? A. Yes; and acting under his advice Smith was dismissed—Dr. Spurgeon, of Camberland-street, Hyde-park, was consulted about my father—he stiffen very much from giddiness in the head, and he has been for some yean unable to Attend juries, and he has been ordered to keep himself from any excitement—he has been excused from attending on juries in consequence of that—at the time I shook hands with the prisoner I believed him to be a highly respectable man.

The prisoner received an excellent character.


There were three other indictments against the prisoner upon which no evidence was offered.


Before Mr. Justice Byles.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-806
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

Related Material

806. GEORGE JONES (46) , Feloniously setting fire to a stack of straw, the property of Charles William Tanner.

MR. TAYLOR conducted the Prosecution.

WILLIAM CRISP . I am gardener to Mr. Charles William Tanner, of West Ham—on Friday, 16th August, we had a stack of oat straw in one of the fields—I was called up about twenty minutes past 4 on Saturday morning—I went to the stack and found it on fire—it was burnt down—the value of it was between 30l. and 40l.—the fire had evidently commenced near the ground on the lee side.

COURT. Q. Do you know the prisoner at all? A. No—there was a man there that morning very much resembling him, but I could not swear to him—it was daylight when I was called up—the policeman states that the fire broke out about ten minutes to 4, and as near as I could judge I should say that would be so—it was daylight then—it is about 200 yards from the high road—Mr. Tanner is a coal and corn merchant, and has a little farm of about thirty acres.

JOHN WARD (Policeman, K 248). On the evening of 19th August, I was on duty at the police-station, at West Ham—the prisoner came up to me as I was standing outside the station door, and said, "I wish to give myself up"—I said, "What for?"—he said, "Well, I have done a thing last week which I ought not to have done"—I said, "What is that?—he said, "I set the straw stack, or a wheat stack, I could not tell which it was, on fire"—I told him that what he was saying I should give in evidence on his trial—he said, "I am laying nothing but what is right, and what is true"—I said, "Whereabouts was the stack situated that you set on fire?"—he pointed in the direction of Mr. Tanner's house where the stack had been on fire—that was about a mile off—I asked what he did it for—he said he did not

know—I asked what he had done it with, and he said with a match—next morning, when I was taking him before the Magistrate, I asked him if he was sorry for what he had stated the night previous—he said he had stated nothing but the truth—I searched him and found three matches upon him.

COURT. Q. Did you know him at all? A. No—he stated that he one from Newfoundland—he said he had come over about two months previously to Liverpool, and had tramped all the way from Liverpool up, that he had been a week or a fortnight, and he was living upon what he would pick up in the streets, and he thought it would be better to do something that would get him into prison than to be starving about the streets—he looked starving enough, and he begged me to give him something to sat, and I gave him a penny loaf and a bit of cheese—it bad been generally known about that this fire had taken place.


Before Mr. Recorder.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-807
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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807. MARY ANN SHIP (27) , Stealing 2 boots, value 12s. 6d., the property of William Green Norman.

WILLIAM YOUNG . lam foreman to William Green Young—some few months ago we were taking stock, and I missed two odd boots—last Monday week Mrs. White brought them to our shop and I recognised them—these are them (produced)—about the time they were missing I had seen the prisoner; she come for a pair of boots—she come frequently about them—I measured her, and the boots were made, but she never came for them.

MARY WHITE . I know the prisoner—she brought me some duplicates and asked me to advance some money upon them—I did so; one of them related to some boots—I redeemed those boots last Monday week, and gave them to my husband—these are them.

WILLIAM GREEN NORMAN . Last Monday week the prisoner was brought to my shop in custody—I took the boots in my hand, and asked her if she knew fan, if she had seen them before—she said, "No"—I said, "Just think Wore you speak, I dare say you are a little excited," after pausing for a short period, I said, "Do you know anything of the boots!"—she said, "No, certainly not"—I then directed Mrs. White to be called in—she gave her statement of the affair, and the prisoner sat for a short time and did not speak—she then said, u Can I speak to you alone, Mr. Norman?"—I said, "If you particularly wish to do so, you can"—she said she should like to—we went into a back parlour, and she said, "Now, Mr. Norman, you know my family all well, certainly I took the boots, but it was distress that drove me to it, and I hope you will forgive me; I will pay you anything you like to charge for the boots, and go down on my knees' a thousand times to do so"—I said, "I can't interfere in the matter at all, you are in the hands of the police; I have no wish to deal severely with you, but from circumstances that I know, I cannot let it pass."

Prisoner's Defence. I had not the duplicate four minutes in my possession before I took it to Mrs. White. I got it of a young woman who owed me 16s.

GUILTY .— Confined Six Month.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-808
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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808. CATHERINE DAVIS (43) , Stealing 1 5l. Bank of England note and 2l. 10s. in gold, the moneys of Jane Campbell.

JANE CAMPBELL . I am housemaid at the Whitechapel Industrial School, at Forest-lane—there was a cupboard there where I kept my things—on the afternoon of last Monday week I locked in the cupboard, and had then a five Pound note, in a purse, and 2l. 10s., amongst which was two half-sovereigns, one

a bad one—they were in a bonnet—I saw it all safe about 8 o'clock that night—on Tuesday evening about 6 o'clock I went to the cupboard again and missed them—on the morning of that day the prisoner had asked me for my keys—she is the boys' nurse there, and I lent them to her—among those was the key of this cupboard; they were all together—she wanted them to open the schoolmaster's door—I did not lend anybody my keys but the prisoner between Monday afternoon and Tuesday evening—I and the prisoner slept in the same room—I went up to bed on Tuesday night directly after her, and I observed something drop from her dress as she was undressing—she was then sent for down stairs, and I searched her things with the schoolmistress—I searched everywhere, and I was coming away, when I happened to see a cloth in the chamber utensil—I opened the cloth and found 2l. 10s. and the half-sovereigns tied up in one corner, and the purse with the five pound note in it, in another corner—I went and told the master, a policeman was sant for, and she was given into custody—this is the cloth and the money (produced).

Prisoner. Q. Did not you often borrow my keys? A. At one time I did, to open the hall door—I have often unlocked the schoolmaster's door for you—I think you had the keys about a quarter of an hour.

Prisoner. I did not know your money was there.

ANNIE MINE . I am girls' housemaid at this Industrial School—on Saturday, 14th, September, I gave this piece of cloth which has been produced to the prisoner.

Prisoner. This is the cloth that I use (producing a piece)—that cloth was never mine; I never saw it.

Witness. She said it was hers the night before—she claimed it as her own—the things all came up from the laundry and this was among them—I asked whose it was, and she said it was hers—I noticed it then, and it was brought to my attention again on the Tuesday.

JANE CAMPBELL (re-examined). Four sleep in the room where the money was found besides us two—none of them had gone up to bed on this night—they were all downstairs—I cannot say whether they had been up in the course of the day.

Prisoner. I am quite innocent of the charge.

GUILTY .— Confined Nine Month.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-809
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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809. WILLIAM BRETT (28) , Stealing 2 boots, the property of William Green Norman.

WILLIAM GREEN NORMAN . I am a boot and shoe maker, at 7, Eagle-terrace Victoria-dock-road—on 15th July last I took stock, and on 15th August I was present when my shopman again took stock—I then missed a pair of laced boots—these (produced) are them—they have never been worn—they were made especially for a particular person, broad at the heel, and the man did not have them—they are in an unfinished state, not punched for lacing.

BRIDGET LEARY . I live at 2, Waldam-street, Plaistow Marsh—the prisoner lodged at my house five or six weeks—he came in one day with another man and gave me these boots to pledge—I don't recollect when it was, but I pledged them the same day at Mr. Darlow's, and gave the prisoner the money and the ticket—he said he did not care about getting them out, and he might lose the ticket—he told me he bought them at Poplar. and he had not time to have the holes punched.

JOSEH HALL . I am assistant to Mr. Darlow, a pawnbroker—Mrs. Leary pledged these boots with me on 31st July, for 5s.—we do not ordinarily take in

unfinished goods, but boots would be got in this state from the warehouse—I have sold them in the shop in the same condition.

JAMES KENNARD (Policeman). I did not try the boots on the prisoner—I asked him if they fitted him, and he said they were rather tight across the toes—he had no boots on when I took him, only a pair of slippers.

Prisoner's Defence. I bought them for 6s. 6d.



Before Mr. Recorder.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-810
VerdictGuilty > unknown

Related Material

810. WILLIAM SIMMONDS (51), was indicted for embezzling the sums 1l. 4s. and 1l. 3s. received on account of Henry George Smith, and another, his masters.

MARY ANN FREEMAN . I live with my stepfather, Mr. Poole—on 28th Jane last I went to the office of Messrs. Smith, at Deptford, for a ton of coals—the price was 1l. 4s.—half-a-hour was owing for previously, which was 13s.—I saw the prisoner there and paid him 1l. 17s., and he gave me these two receipts—I paid both at the same time.

GEORGE CHAPMAN . I am an oilman at Deptford—I have dealt With Messrs Smith for coals—on 3d August I owed them 1l. 3s.—I paid it to the prisoner, and he gave me this receipt—(The three receipts being read were signed, "W. Simmonds.")

HENRY GRORGE SMITH . I carry on business with my brother Thomas Robert Smith—the prisoner has been in our service twelve months—he had authority to receive money from our customers, day after day, and was to pay it in every evening—he kept a book in which it was his duty to enter what be received—this is it—on 28th June 13c is entered, as received from Poole—the 1l. 4s. is not entered in any part of the book—on 3d August there is no entry of 1l. 3s. paid by Mr. Chapman, nor in any part of the book—on 7th September I gave him notice to leave our service—I said to him, "Simmonds, your services will not be required next week, but on the following Saturday you may come for your week's wages"—he made no reply then, but half-an-hour afterwards be followed me out of the office, and asked why I gave him notice to leave, and before I could hardly gat the words oat of my mouth, he said he had received monies on our account and not accounted for them—he gave me a list of the monies he had received—I told him I had heard that he had been borrowing money, and we did not understand his mode of going on—this list is in his own writing—it contain "Chapman, 1l. 3s." and "Poole, 1l. 4s." among others—he said he had been in trouble.

Prisoner. Q. Did not I say I was wanting to borrow money to pay back that which I had received? A. Yes.

Prisoner's Defence. I admit having received the amounts, but I intended to return them, and should have done so if I had not been prevented from borrowing the money; it arose from distress, caused by the long severe illness of a child, and my own.

GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-811
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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811. JOHN GARDINER (51) , Stealing 2 pairs of goloshes, value 7s., the property of William Mitting.

WILLIAM MITTING . I keep an India-rubber shop in Maddox-street,

Greenwich-road—on the morning of 29th August, about 9 o'clock, I was in my kitchen, from which I could see through a glass-door into the shop—I saw the prisoner come in—I ran into the shop and missed two pain of shoes from a lump of shoes in the window—the prisoner was turning out of the shop-door—I went and took the shoes from under his arm and gave him in charge.

Prisoner. I did not steal them; I found them on the step. Witness. I had seen them safe in the shop about ten minutes before—they were a yard and a half within the shop—I did not see him take them—he saw me coming and turned his body between me and the shoes.

GUILTY .— Confined Three Months.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-812
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceNo Punishment > sentence respited

Related Material

812. EMMA BELL (17) , Stealing, on 10th August, 1 bonnet, 1 mantle, 1 crinoline, 1 pair of boots, 1 shift, 1 pair of stockings, 1 petticoat, 1 gown, 1 jacket, and 1 parasol, the property of John Cameron, her master; to which she

PLEADED GUILTY.— Judgment Respited.

Before Mr. Justice Keating.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-813
VerdictGuilty > lesser offence

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813. JOHN BAKER (25) , Feloniously cutting and wounding Edwin Bown, with intent to do him some grievous bodily harm.

MR. ORRIDGE conducted the Prosecution.

EDWIN BOWN . I live at 87, King-street, Deptford, and am boiler-man in the employment of Huntleys the engineers—on Saturday, 14th September, I and Borne other men went in vans on an excursion to Cremorne—the prisoner is, I believe, a sailor—he is a friend of one of the men—we stayed till 12 o'clock, and then returned to Deptford in the van—I got into the same van with the prisoner going home—we were very much pressed for room, and I asked him to shift a little further—he said that he could not, and he would not—I asked my cousin to make room—she made as much room as she could, and I sat between them—the prisoner said that if I did not get up he would throw me out of the van—I said that I had paid as well as him, and he could not do that—he jumped up and caught me by the coller but I shoved him back on the seat, and we went on to Deptford very peaceably—when we got to the windmill there, a female with the prisoner said, "Now this big-whiskered fellow shall have it;" and the prisoner threatened that I should "have it" when I got outside—we got out at Gibraltar-street, Deptford, and I told him he had been threatening me inside, and asked him what he meant doing now—he made up to me and attempted to strike me—I defended myself, and turned him round, but we did not go down—we closed again, and I felt a blow on my right wrist—I felt something prick my wrist—I felt severe pain directly—I seized him by the wrist and knocked him down—the female seized me and staggered me till the prisoner got away—I lost sight of him, and believe he got into the van—I found my wrist bleeding tremendously—I went to a doctor with my sister-in-law and got it dressed—I could not see whether the prisoner had anything in his hand when I received the blow, as it was dark—it was about half-part I in the morning—I received a blow from no other person but the prisoner—he was apprehended about 5 o'clock the same morning—when I caught hold of his hand I felt something hard, different from the flesh, but in the straggle I let go—this (produced) is my coat; it is cut clean through, and there is blood inside the sleeve—I was perfectly sober—I believe the prisoner was fresh.

Prisoner. Q. Did not you strike me while I was down? A. No; there was no lamp; it was completely dark.

THOMAS JAMES . I am a boiler-maker of Deptford—I was one of the excursion—I saw the prosecutor and the prisoner get out of the van at Deptford, and heard an altercation between them—there was a scuffle directly, and than a second scuffle, just before which the prisoner said, "I will knife you"—he was quarrelling with no other person—after that the prosecutor walked away—I walked to him and he said, "I am knifed;" and I saw his wrist covered with blood.

COURT. Q. Did you see the beginning of it after they got out the van? A. Yes; I got out. directly after the prosecutor—I did not see him knock the prisoner down.

JOHN SMITH . I am a boiler maker—I was one of this excursion party, and saw the prosecutor and prisoner get out of the van—I saw a scuffle between them; and just before the second scuffle I heard the prisoner say, "I will knife you"—there was then a little scuffle for about a minute, after which I walked away to the prosecutor, and saw his wrist with blood on it.

JOSEPH ANDERSON , M.R.C.S. I live at 24, High-street, Deptford—the prosecutor was brought to my surgery about 2 o'clock on this Sunday morning—I found a punctured incised wound on the wrist, of considerable depth; and exposing the principal vessel—it was a clean cut wound, and must have seen inflicted by some sharp instrument—it was full half an inch deep—the radial artery was pulsating completely through the wound—it was dangerous from the near position of the artery.

WILLIAM WAINWRIGHT (M 64). I took the prisoner at half-past 5 the lame morning, and told him he was charged with cutting the prosecutor—he said he knew nothing about it.

Witnesses for the Defence.

JOHN HACKETT . I was one of the party, and was in the van when it arrived at Deptford—I saw the prosecutor and prisoner get out, and when I got out I saw Mr. Bown with his coat off, and heard him say, "Where is bet"—Mr. Baker came up and said, "Here I am"—he had no sooner spoken the words than he was knocked down on the kerb-stone—he lay there for some minutes, and the woman who was with him came up, and she received a blow on the mouth, and was knocked down senseless—I and Mother caught hold of her, and the husband came up, and he received a blow from Bown—Mr. Parkins came up, caught hold of Mr. Bown's arm, and told him not to strike a woman—he hit at him; but did not strike him—I stopped there till the last, till the woman came to, and the husband came to take her home—I saw the beginning of the struggle between the prisoner and prosecutor—I did not bear Bown complain of being wounded, or hear the prisoner say, "I will knife you."

Cross-examined by MR. ORRIDGE. Q. Do you know James and John Smith? A. Yes; they were sitting next to me—I was out of the van before them—I did not see them get out, nor when they were out—it was a dark night—there were a goodish few people round—we were close to a gas lamp.

ALFRED PARKINS . I am a lighterman and waterman—I saw John Baker get out of the van first, a female followed, and then Bown got out and said, "Where's the fellow?" or something of that sort, wanting to know where the man was that he had been quarrelling with—Baker said, "Here I am"—Bown then struck him—he did not take his coat off then—a female got between them and tried to stop the fighting, and Bown knocked her down—I took hold of his right arm, turned him round, and said, "Do not strike a woman"—he then pulled off his jacket, turned up his right

sleeve, and said, "Half a dozen of them if you like"—they found that the woman had got into a fit—I assisted her; and after that we saw no more of the parties that were quarrelling—Baker was assisting me with the female—he stood by us all the time till we got towards her home—I did not hear the prosecutor say that he was wounded, and I did not know anything about it till about twenty minutes or a quarter of an hour afterwards when I was coming back towards the place—I met some of Bown's friends who said that he had been stabbed.

Cross-examined. Q. Then you saw no further souffle between Bown and this man, except when Bown struck at him first? A. That was all.

AMELIA GRIFFIN . I was in the van on that night, and saw the prosecutor and prisoner get out—I was with them—after they got out Mr. Bown struck Mr. Baker, and said, "Who is the man that wants to fight with me?" Mr. Baker said, "I am; come on"—he said, "I will fight fifty b----s such as you"—upon that he knocked him down—I was standing by my husband, and Bown up with his fist, and sent me on the top of Mr. Baker—my husband came to my assistance and was knocked on the top of me—what occurred afterwards I do not know, for I was insensible.

Cross-examined. Q. You taw nothing after the first blow struck by Bown? A. No; there was only a slight struggle, and then I saw no more—I was not removed from the spot—I was insensible.

GUILTY of unlawfully wounding. — Confined Six Months.

Before Robert Malcolm Kerr, Esq.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-814
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

Related Material

814. JAMES TATE (18) , Stealing 6 lbs. of lamb, 4 lbs. of mutton, 1 dead rabbit, 6 lbs. of cheese, 1 pie, 1 pudding, 1 loaf of bread, and two dishes, of Benjamin Bovil, his property; to which he

PLEADED GUILTY .* Confined Eight Month.

Before Mr. Recorder,

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-815
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

Related Material

815. JOHN SURREY (19), and JOHN LEE (23) , Stealing 1 watch value 6 guineas, the property of William George King, from his person.

MR. LANGFORD conducted the Prosecution.

WILLIAM GEORGE KING . I live in John-street, Woolwich—on Friday night, about 17th August, I went to the Woolwich Theatre—I had a silver watch in my pocket—I witnessed the performance—Surrey sat next to me—I fell asleep during the performance, and when I woke up, I found my watch was gone—I do not know of my own knowledge who took it—I did not give anybody permission to take it—I did not see Surrey leave—he was gone when I woke—I have not seen my watch since—it was worth six guineas.

WILLIAM BATTERSBY . I live at Crescent-road, Plumstead—I was at the Woolwich Theatre on the night of Friday, the 17th—I saw King there, and Surrey, whom I had known before—I went down between one of the acts, and when I was in the street, Surrey came up and told me that he knew where there was a watch to be taken—he said that he had taken it out of King's pocket and looked at it—Lee and two others were with him them—we all went up again together and sat down, and I saw Surrey put his hand into King's pocket, and then take it out again—I could not say that he had a watch in his hand when he took it away—when I saw that, I paid another penny and went down into the pit, intending to tell a policeman when I got down there, but no policeman was there—Lee was sitting the fifth from Surrey—I did not hear Lee ask to borrow a penny—I did not see the watch at all.

COURT. Q. Was Lee the fifth from King? A. Yes—King was asleep when I saw Surrey put his hand into his pocket—I did not awake him—there were four other big fellows up there.

Cross-examined by MR. DICKIE. Q. Were you in the gallery? A. Yes—I did not see any policeman stationed at the door when I went out—there is generally one standing in the pit—I did not go outside the door—there is a door that goes into the pit from the gallery—there ware no police standing then—I have never seen the watch at all—I had not agreed to have anything to do with the stealing of the watch—I was examined four-times at the police-court; only twice in this case—I have been a prisoner in other cases—this case was three times, before the Magistrater—on the second occasion, they had to postpone it because I did not appear—I was not able to come up then—I went to Wandsworth, to try and get into a new reformatory school there—I have been told by policeman 217 that I should get 5s. a day if I came on and gave my evidence.

JOHN HOLMES (Policeman, R 245). I was on duty in the Woolwich Theatre on the night of Friday, the 16th, from half-past 6 till half-past 10 o'clock—during that time I saw Surrey and Lee together several times—I saw them leave together about half-past 10 o'clock—they left very quickly—I went in search of them about 12 o'clock, and took Surrey into custody—he was lying in a shed in a brick-field at Plumstead—I told him the charge, and he laid he had not been at the theatre—I heard Lee ask a boy to lend him a penny, about an hour and a half before he left the theatre.

Cross-examined. Q. Did you search them? A. I did—I found nothing on Sorrey—I have not given any directions to Battersby to-day—I swear that—I have not been speaking to my brother constable about Battersby's hiring 5s. a day if he came here—I did not induce him by any means to come here to-day.

WILLIAM WARNS (Policeman, R 217). On the night of Friday, the 17th, I was in the pit of the theatre, and received some information from my brother constable—I went in search of the four, and took Lee into custody about 12 o'clock, in Woolwich—I told him the charge against him was for staling the watch in the theatre—issaid, "I know nothing about it"—I took him to the station-house, searched him, and found 10s. 1d. in his pocket, and several other things (produced)—after inquiries, we heard that Lee had changed a sovereign—I then brought him out of the cell, searched him again, and found 6s. in his handkerchief.

Cross-examined. Q. How many men were taken up at first? A. Four—when the prisoners were remanded, the lad said to me, "I shall get 5s. a day, shan't I?" and I said, "Yes something like that you will get"—I did not say to him, "What a young fool you are, not to say he took the sovereign;" not a word about it—I am about to leave the force—Battersby did not come up on the second examination.


23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-816
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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816. JOHN HUNT (23), a soldier, Feloniously breaking and entering the dwelling-house of John Poole, with intent to steal.

JOHN POOLE . I am troop serjeant-major in the military train at Woolwich—our quarters are on the common; it consists of ten rooms; mine is No. 9; the windows look out on to the common—on the evening of 7th september, I left my quarters about half-past 6 o'clock—the door and window were then fastened—I returned at half-past 9, and found the window broken and the place broken into—nothing was taken—I had left a cash-box there, containing 25l. and a gold watch and chain—it was underneath

the bed—this cap was found in my quarters, and I identify it as belonging to the prisoner—I went to him and asked him where his cap was; he said he did not know—I asked him if this was his cap; he said he did not know—I asked the room at large, about eighteen or twenty men, if any one could identify this cap—several men stood up and said, "Yes, it is Hunt's cap"—he said nothing—I examined his elbows, and knees, and hands—I found a spot of blood on his left hand—I asked where he got it from—he said from wrestling—his elbow was cut and plastered up, and the cloth of his overalls was torn—the window that was broken is seven feet, three and a half inche high; it must have been done by one person lifting up another.

THOMAS PETT . On Saturday night, 7th September, my attention was called to the prosecutor's premises about twenty minutes past 8 o'clock—I ran out of my room, and ran round to his quarters—I opened the door, and entered; and just as I did so, I heard a scuffle outside the window, as if a man had got out there—I found that the window was broken, and a sort of box under the window; a looking glass had been upon it, and that was down on the floor—I picked up this cap on the floor—I do not know whose it is—I kept it in my possession till the serjeant-major came in—I looked the door immediately, and ran round to the back of the hut, and saw Buckmaster walking about there, and he said something to me.

HENRY BUCKMASTER . I was a patient at the hospital at this time—about a quarter or half-past 8 in the evening, I was walking backwards and forwards in the rear of the hospital—I saw a man's legs sticking out of the window of Sergeant Poole's quarters—I could not see his face—I walked up and down again for about five minutes, and when I was about eight yards off the end hut, I heard a window break—I stepped to the left to see who it was, and I saw a man on the ground—he got up and ran towards me, and when he was about four yards off me, he fell on a clothes' prop—he got up and was face to face with me—it was the prisoner.

WILLIAM MCDERMOT . I am a private in the first battalion—the prisoner has sometimes borrowed my cap, and I have borrowed his—I know this cap to be his—there is no other in the troop like it—it has glazed calico at the bottom—I have worn it at different times, and know it well.

GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months.

The Sergeant stated that the prisoner's character in the regiment was bad.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-817
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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817. HENRY BOSTOCK (27), a marine, Stealing 2 coats, and other goods, value 10l. the property of John Johnston, his master.

MR. LANGFORD conducted the Prosecution.

GEORGE JOHNSTON . I am a lieutenant in the Royal Marines, quartered at Woolwich—the prisoner was a private in the corps, employed by me as servant—I paid him 8s. a month—I saw him on the evening of the 26th August—the next time I saw him was eight days afterwards, in custody—I had not given him permission to leave—on the morning that he left I missed a quantity of articles of clothing—his own coat, two pairs of trousers, one of mine, and one of his, a waistcoat, a pair of boots, three blankets a rug three pair of drawers, and a hat which I had given him to wear—I had seen some of the things safe the morning before, and some I had not seen for some time—I had not given him permission to take away either my clothes or those that he himself wore.

JOHN SERGEANT (Policeman). I took the prisoner into custody on 4th September—I told him it was for stealing some clothing belonging to Lieut Johnston—he said he knew nothing about it; but on the way to the station

he said he had sold the jacket and waistcoat in the town when drunk and the hat he had left in the kitchen at the barracks.


23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-818
VerdictNot Guilty > directed

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818. HENRY BOSTOCK was again indicted for embezzling 14s. the property of George Johnston, his master.

The Court considered that there was no case for the Jury.



Before Mr. Justice Byles.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-819
VerdictsGuilty > manslaughter; Not Guilty > no evidence
SentencesImprisonment > penal servitude

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819. JOHN SPELLER (19), was indicted for the wilful murder of William Dixon; he was also charged on the Coroner's Inquisition with the like murder.

MR. ORRIDGR conducted the Prosecution.

THOMAS PORTER . I am a seaman on board the American ship Bosphorus—the prisoner wan also a seaman on board—we arrived off the Commercial Dock on Friday afternoon, 6th September—I went into the forecastle to tat prisoner; the mate having called all hands on deck, there were three men in the forecastle, Callaghan, Galbraith, and the prisoner—I told the prisoner to come out on deck—he said he would not go till I went—upon that I caught him by the collar and tried to poll him out with me—we scuffled and both of as fell; he fell under me—I think I struck him; I did strike him—when I got up the witness said that I was out—I did not feel the cut—the prisoner ran out and I chased him; I jumped on the chest first, and the prisoner tried to run out of the forecastle—the deceased man Dim was coming in at the time—he went to take the knife from the prisoner, who was then standing alongside the forecastle door, and I believe Dixon was stabbed—I did not see anything done by the prisoner—I saw the knife in his hand; I did not see him do anything with it—they were standing face to face—Dixon got hold of the prisoner, I believe, by the arm; the prisoner had his right arm up—it was not more than two or tine seconds at most after seeing him with his arm up so, that I found Dixon was stabbed—he fell; the prisoner ran out and I chased him—I did not see what became of the knife—he ran forward and I believe he dropped the knife forwards, I did not see him—the constable has shown me a knife since—this (produced) is it, as near as I know; I could not swear to it, is similar to the one I had seen him with before—Dixon died within five minutes at the most—the prisoner and I had had a few words one day during the voyage—that was the second time I had had a quarrel with him—I had had no quarrel with him that day.

Cross-examined by MR. THOMPSON. Q. What time in the day did this occur? A. I can't say; it was after dinner—we generally dine at 12 o'clock the vessel had arrived that day—I had been on shore; Dixon and I went ashore together; we had been drinking ashore—I don't know whether I was stimulated by what I had had—I think I had had two glasses of gin, that was all; no beer—I had nothing to drink with my dinner—there was a fourth man in the forecastle, a Dutchman; before I said anything to the prisoner I had not spoken to the Dutchman—I had struck his, but it was in fun—I did not kick him—he did not cry; he laughed—I called him a son of a b----, that is a word I generally use; the Dutchman went out—I can't say what I said to him; I might have said, "Out, you Dutch son of a b—"—I then told two of the others to go out, not in the same way that I had told the Dutchman—I told them to go out on deck to go to

work—they were getting ready to go—I took the prisoner by the collar—I don't remember saying, "You come oat, you son of a b----"—I won't swear I did not say so—this is an American ship—I am not an American; nor is the prisoner that I know of—we all carry knives, slung round the waist with a belt—I did not strike the prisoner as I did the Dutchman—we scuffled and both fell, he underneath—I ordered the men out of the forecastle because we were working on deck, and we wanted to go ashore and leave the ship—we wanted them to help us haul the ship in, so that we should get ashore before dark—it is the mate's duty to give the orders—I went to take the prisoner out with me—it was not in the course of the scuffle that the knife appeared—it was when we fell; I saw the knife after be struck me—I did not knock the prisoner down; we scuffled and fall—I remember the prisoner calling out for Liverpool—that was when he was down—it was when he ran out of the forecastle that I chased him; the forecastle is on deck—there was no angry feeling towards Dixon on the part of the prisoner.

MR. ORRIDGE. Q. Were you quite sober at the time? A. I was not altogether sober, and I was not altogether drunk—I did not knock the prisoner down—I had do quarrel with the other men that I was turning out—in ordering them to go on deck I was only repeating the order which the mate had given.

JURY. Q. How did the prisoner happen to bare his knife at the times? A. He wears it in a belt, with a leather sheath to it.

JOHN GALBRAITH . I am a seaman on board the Bosphorus—on 6th September I was in the forecastle—I heard the mate call all hands aft—I saw Porter go up to the prisoner and ask him to go aft—he said he would when Porter went out—they had a scuffle, and both fell down—when Porter got up callaghan shouted out that he was stabbed—the prisoner was then making for the door when Dixon was entering—Dixon went to catch him by the collar to take the knife from him, and he struck Dixon with the knife—he had it in his hand at the time Dixon entered—that is the knife—Dixon went to catch the prisoner by the collar and take the knife from him, and he struck Dixon—it was a back-handed blow in the neck—Dixon bled, and died within five minutes—the prisoner rushed out and threw the knife under the gallant forecastle, and Barrack picked it up—I did not follow the prisoner—I was dragging Dixon by the main mast—I had heard Dixon and the prisoner disputing in the forecastle that day about money—I heard the prisoner ask Dixon for some money; they bad a bet about some ship, and the prisoner had won 4s. on it—Dixon said he would only give him 1s.—and he said he would not take it, be would have his money or he would see for why—I had seen them disputing several times on the passage—on each occasion it was with regard to their money—the prisoner was sober at this time.

Cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH. Q. How long had you all been at sea on this voyage? A. About thirty days—we seldom are at sea thirty days without having some little dispute now and then—they call me Liverpool—I heard the prisoner call out "Liverpool, Liverpool"—I did not run up and find the prisoner on the ground and Porter atop of him—I did not see Porter strike him, I saw him get hold of him by the collar—he was not on the ground at that time, he was standing by his bunk—I did not see Dixon lay hold of the prisoner by the arm.

WILLIAM CREGEEN FARRAKER . I am assistant to Dr. Cregeen of Rotherhithe—On Friday, 6th September, I was called on board the Bosphorus to

see a see man—I got there about 6 o'clock, he was then dead—I found that had died from a punctured wound above the right collar-bone, it was suck a would as might have been caused by this knife, the wound was sufficient to account for death—it had pierced the subclavian artery.

JAMES CALLARY (Policeman, M 264). I took the prisoner into custody 6th September, about 4 o'clock in the afternoon—he seemed very Much excited—he said he was very sorry for the man who was dead, for he meant for the other man—he said, "I was very much ill-used on the passage through that man."

(The prisoner's statement before the Magistrate was read at follows—"I had no quarrel with Dixon to speak of I had no ill-will to him I did not do it I was making a rush to the door, Dixon nude a grab at my hand and is palling the arm down that the knife was in, it jerked the knife into his shoulder.")

GUILTY of manslaughter. Recommended to mercy by the Jury who were of opinion that he had received some provocation which might, in some degree mitigate the character of the offence. — Ten Years' Penal Servitude.

There was another indictment against the prisoner for feloniously wounding Thomas Porter, upon which no evidence was offered.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-820
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceMiscellaneous > sureties

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820. BENJAMIN MARTIN (23), was indicted for feloniously killing and slaying Stephen Osborne—he was also charged on the Coroner's Inquisition with the like offence.

MR. DICKIE conducted the Protection.

LEMUEL FREDRICH LITTELL . I reside at Peckham Rye—I hold an appointment under the Corporation of the City of London—on the afternoon of 4th of September, about twenty minutes to 5 o'clock, I was returning home on foot along the Old Kent-road—I saw an omnibus being driven towards me that would be towards town it was drawn by three horses us going very steadily—there was nothing particular to attracted my attention—it was some distance ahead of me—I could not see whether there was any one in the omnibus—the first thing that attracted my attention was the prisoner getting on to the top of the omnibus from behind he was I presume acting as conductor—he jumped up from behind, went over the roof, jumped on to the box by the side of the coachman and struck him a blow, and he immediately closed with the man by putting his arm round the upper part of his body or neck, I could not see which, and in an instant they fell off the omnibus together, and the right-hand side wheels passed over both the men—I ran up to the spot where the coachman lay—by that times the prisoner had got upon his feet—I said to him, "You have made a pretty mess through striking the man"—he said, "I did not strike him"—I said) "You blackguard, you did strike him, I saw you"—he then said, "He has been at it all the way up"—not seeing a policeman on the spot I took his number, and then went into the surgeon's where the man bad by that time been removed—he appeared to me to have been insensible from the moment that he fell—the whole thing was instantaneous.

Cross-examined by MR. LILLET. Q. Were there any passengers on the top of the omnibus? A. I did not see any—my firm belief is, that there were none, but after the evidence that has been given by a witness, I should not like to speak positively—the omnibus was about thirty or forty yards from me, when I saw the prisoner passing over it from the back to the front I should say forty yards was the outside—it occurred directly opposite the Coburg-road, on the Greenwich side of the Green Man turnpike—it was not

a violent blow that the prisoner struck—subsequently to striking him he placed his arms round the coachman—I had not noticed the coachman's conduct at all, prior to the prisoner coming alongside him—the prisoner struck him with his left hand—the omnibus was going towards London on its proper side, and I was on the same side of the road, going towards have '—the omnibus was on my left side—I was on the right-hand side of the road—I believe it was an omnibus that had a double row of seats on the roof.

ISSAC MORRIS . I was acting house-surgeon at Guy's hospital on 4th September, about twenty minutes past 5 o'clock in the afternoon, when the omnibus driver was brought in, he was dead—there was a wound can the right cheek, and the skin was grated off the right hand—I could not tell then where she mortal injury was—I made an examination subsequently and found that the right collar-bone was broken, the ten upper ribs can the right side, and the seven upper ribs on the left the liver was torn completely asunder, and the abdomen was filled with blood—the body was in quite a healthy state—the fall from an omnibus and the wheels passing over him would be likely to cause the injuries I saw.

Cross-examined. Q. You saw no bruises except those that were likely to be done by the injury received in the way described? A. No.

THOMAS HENRY REEB . I am a manufacturing chemist in Dennett's-read, Hatcham—on 4th September last, about 5 o'clock in the afternoon, I was in an omnibus proceeding from the Montague Arms to London—it was the omnibus of which the prisoner was the conductor, and the deceased the driver—when the omnibus started the deceased was acting as conductor, and said the prisoner as driver—when they changed horses they also changed, the conductor became driver, and the driver became conductor—a dispute commenced between them at the Shard Arms in the Kent-road, and continued until the accident—at the time of the accident, or just before, the conductor had been disputing, and he said, "What is that you say?"—and ran quickly up the steps of the omnibus—I heard him cross the roof, and I presently saw the driver and conductor come tumbling down the side of the omnibus, and I felt two jerks of the omnibus—I got out and saw the deceased lying apparently dead in the road, and the prisoner scrambling up—there were a good many angry remarks between them before this occurred—I was looking out of the window of the omnibus—I did not notice it until I got to the Shard Arms, and then my attention was called particularly to it had been going on before, but I had not noticed it—I think the conductor was quite sober—I could see him when he was acting as conductor.

Cross-examined. Q. When you got out of the omnibus, did you see that the prisoner was severely injured? A. No he did not appear to be injured at all then—I know it now, from his appearance, but he had no appearance of it then, so far from it, he jumped on to the omnibus directly, and got on to his seat as if there was nothing the matter with him—I see he has crutches now—I could not hear what the deceased said so well as I could the prisoner—I heard him laugh—I could only hear one side, as I was sitting near the door—I suppose there were angry and abusive expressions used by the coachman.

WILLIAM BAILEY (examined by MR. LILLET). I was on the top of the omnibus on this occasion—I saw no blow struck—when the conductor came across to the driver he endeavoured to take the reins from him—I fancy the driver bad been drinking, from his appearance—I had been with the omnibus from the time of its starting at Peckham; I got up at the

Montague Arms—I did not see the driver take anything in the course of the drive, not after leaving the Montague Arms; I saw them drinking there, that is where they start from—the driver tried to prevent the prisoner from taking the reins—the prisoner tried to take them because the driver had been loitering in his journey—he caught hold of his left hand—the prisoner is a relation of the proprietor of the omnibus.

MR. DICKIE. Q. Was there a rival omnibus attempting to pass at the time? A. Mr. Austen's omnibus; they pulled up at the Lord Nelson—I was sitting right at the back part of the roof, close where the conductor stands—I sat sideways—the driver's back would be to me.

JOSHUA THOMAS (Policeman, M 259). I was on duty in the Old Kings-road on the 4th of this month, shortly before 5 o'clock—I did not notice the bus pass me, my attention was called to the man who had been run over—his name was Stephen Osborn—he was in Dr. Palmer's surgery—he was dead—I removed him to the hospital—I afterwards went to the prisoner; I found him in bed apparently very exhausted, suffering from a broken leg.

Cross-examined. Q. Do you know whether one leg only or both are injured? A. One is broken and, I believe, the other is injured—I know nothing about it except from what I have been told—I saw him coming into Court to-day on crutches.

GUILTY .— To enter into his own recognizances, to appear and receive judgment if called upon.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-821
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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821. PATRICK WALSH (17) , Feloniously cutting and wounding Catherine Brooker, with intent to do her grievous bodily harm.

MR. DICKIE conducted the Prosecution.

CATHERINE BROOKER . I am the wife of Henry Brooker, of 2, York-street, Bamoudsey New-road—on Saturday morning, 17th August, between 2 and 3 o'clock, before daylight, I was in Bermondsey New-road—a wagon loaded with greens passed along—two bundles fell off; I picked them up, I was going to take them to the owner of the wagon—the prisoner came behind me—I am positive he is the man—he asked me for the greens—I said, no, they were not his and they were not mine, I would go and give them to the owner—he took a knife out of his pocket and stabbed me in two places. through my hand and on the back of it—my hand was considerably injured; I have been at the hospital ever since—he took one bunch of greens away from me and the other fell when I ran after him; he got away with one bunch—it did not take above ten minutes or a quarter of an hour—I had a full opportunity of seeing his face, I was close to a lamp—I distinctly saw the knife in his hand, it was a pocket-knife.

Cross-examined by MR. LILLEY. Q. What were you doing out at that early hour in the morning? A. I was waiting to call my husband up, he was in bed; he had to get up at half-past 2—he was not the worse for liquor—he had gone to bed about half-past 10—I went down at this time to see what the time was, because my clock had stopped—I had a jug in my hand—I was not going to the public-house for some beer, it was too late; I brought the jug out intending to get some—when I fell the jug flew out of my right hand into the road—it broke after I was stabbed—I fell down with the loss of blood as I ran after the prisoner—I was on the footpath, the jug flew into the road—I had seen the prisoner before but never to speak to him—I know Mrs. Onions, I called on her to go with me to the hospital—I did not tell her that I had fallen down and cut my hand with the jug; nothing of the sort I said I had fallen down in running after the prisoner—I was quite

sober, I fell from loss of blood—my hand is not well now, it is healed up but I have had a great swelling in my hand since; it is covered up but I can show it—I do not know where the prisoner's father lives—I have not learnt it since this occurrence—I get my living by my husband's hard earnings—he works at Billingsgate-market—he does not get much; he is out of work in the summer—I do not do anything.

MR. DICKIE. Q. You say you fell with the jug in your right hand? A. Yes—it was my left hand that was cut.

JURY. Q. Did you lose sight of the prisoner after you were cut? A. Yes; and never saw him again till I went to the station—I gave a description of him.

EDWARD GRERN . I am a surgeon at Guy's hospital—about 4 o'clock on the morning of 17th August the prosecutrix was brought into the hospital—I examined her—I found an incised wound at the back of the wrist sad an incised wound inside the thumb; the cut on the back of the wrist was about two inches long—she has been under my care ever since.

Cross-examined. Q. Are the wounds pretty well healed now? A. Yes, the wounds are—it is possible they might have been caused by falling upon a piece of a broken jug, but I should consider that the wounds would have been much more lacerated; they were not very deep—the laceration would depend upon how the jug was broken and upon the force of the fall.

MR. DICKIE. Q. Do not you think they were more likely to be caused by a knife? A. Yes—I should think they were caused by some cutting instrument—I am just in practice.

COURT. Q. Can you explain how the felling on a piece of broken jug would cut both the back and front of the hand? A. No, I cannot explain that; that jug may have been broken in pieces—contact would have done it.

JOHN BRODERICK (Policeman, M 43). I apprehended the prisoner on 20th August in Kent-street, Southwark from information I received from the prosecutrix—I got a description of his person and clothes.

Cross-examined. Q. Did you tell him he was charged with cutting and wounding a woman? A. Yes; on the way to the station—he made no reply at that time, we had to stop on account of some obstruction in the street, but about three minutes afterwards he said he did not do it, and that he had witnesses to prove it.

COURT. Q. When did the prosecutrix give you the description? A. The night previous, at the station.

MR. LILLEY called the following witnesses for the. Defence.

SARAH ONIONS . I live at 24, Wilmot's-buildings, White-street, borough—I work for Mr. Holies, army and navy clothier—I know Catherins Brooker—on a Saturday morning about five weeks ago, I can't say the dates, she came to me between 2 and 3 o'clock, tapped at my window, and asked me to get up—I was lying down in my clothes—I got up and opened the door to her—she said, "Oh, do come out with me"—I said, "What for?"—she said, "My hand is bleeding"—I said, "Has Mr. Brooker done it?"—she said, "No; he has not done it, but he will not go with me to the hospital; he said, I shall not do anything of the sort, serve the drunken b----r right, she has no business out at this time in the morning getting drunk'"—I said, "I will go with you; how did it happen?"—she said, "I can scarcely tell you; I was going to the King's Arms to get a pint of porter and broke my jug"—she said she saw some greens and the driver of the cart was asleep, and some young man asked her for them, and she would not give them, but said, "Follow the man, he is asleep, perhaps there will be some

more fall off, and then they took them from me, and I fell down and broke the jug"—I went with her to the hospital—the had been drinking—the admitted having had a little but not a great deal—she said two young men took the greens from her—she said she did not know how the wound was done—she could not but think it must have been a knife.

MARY WELSH . I am the prisoner's mother—he was living with me—he brought his father indoors on Friday night, the 16th, between 11 and 12—my husband and I were not very good friends, because he came home drunk? my son went to sleep in his father's bed, and I went to the lad's bed to sleep—he came down about 12 o'clock next morning—he was not exactly in bed so late as that, but he was upstairs—he could not have gone oat of the house after he bad gone up to bed, without my knowing it—I was in the same room—I am quite sure he did not go out.

Cross-examined by MR. DICKIE. Q. Does he usually sleep till 12 in the morning? A. No, but he was up late the night before—I don't suppose it was quite so late as 12 when he came in, because the shops were not shut up—I gave my evidence before the Magistrate.

MR. LILLEY. Q. Have you a clock in the house? A. No—we are not near the church, but we can hear the clock strike—I am sure it was not 3 in the morning when be came in—we are never up so late as that.

HENRY CHANDLER . About half-past 2 o'clock on Saturday morning, the 17th, I was in Bermondsey New-road with another young man, going home, and saw the proseoutrix with two bunches of greens in her bands—she said to me," I have just picked these up, and I am going for a pint of beer; if you go down there you might pick up some more greens"—the young man that was with me took one bunch oat of her hand, and ran down the road—she an after him, with a jug in her hand, and she fell down just against knowles-street—she got up, and went on after him—I came up to her, and saw her arm all over blood, and then I went home, and saw no more, only next morning, when I went by the place, I saw the blood where she fell—the did not say she had been cut with a knife—she said nothing to me about it—I will swear no knife was used—I was just behind her when she fall with the jug in her hand.

Cross-examined. Q. Were you before the Magistrate? A. No—I spoke about this next morning to a publican—the young man who was with me is not here—I am an unfortunate man—the reason I did not come up Wore was because I have got a bad character, and the young man who was with me is in trouble at the present time—I am not a returned convict, or a ticket-of-leave man—I am known in the neighbourhood.

MR. LILLEY. Q. Is what you have sworn to-day the truth? A. The truth, on my oath.

ELIZA PERCIVAL . I live at 3, Old-court, very nearly opposite the prisoner's father's—on the night of 17th August I saw the prisoner go into his house between 11 and 12 with his father—I did not see him again that night—I saw him next morning between 11 and 12 in the day.

Cross-examined. Q. Were you before the Magistrate? A. No—I came here because Mrs. Walsh spoke to me to come—she is a neighbour of mine.


23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-822
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

Related Material

822. LOUIS GOTHIEL (18) , Robbery, with other persons, with violence on James Calan, and stealing from his person 1l. 15s., his money.

MR. ROWDEN conducted the Prosecution.

JAMES CALAN . On Saturday, 7th September, I was stevedore of the ship

Grace Darling—I was out on business that evening, and was returning to my house 5, London-court, Deptford, at about half-past 11 at night—I went into the Plough public-house, at Plough-bridge, Rotherhithe, and had a, glass of half and-half—I was sober—when I entered the house, three sailors came up to me—the prisoner was one, and the other two, named Thomas and Cavanah, was with him—Thomas and Cavanah asked me if I was stevedore to the grace Darling, and I answered that I was—they all then said that they belonged to a vessel called the Cambria lying at the head of the Grace Darling; that they were hard up and wanted a friend, as their vessel would not be paid off till the following Monday—they asked me whether I would be their friend and give them something to drink—I told them they could have whatever they liked to drink—I gave them something to drink, and then they asked if I could oblige them by letting them have a shilling a-piece—Thomas said, alluding to the prisoner, "Here's our third mate, he will be answerable for us"—the prisoner said, "Let me have 2s."—I ultimately gave him 2s., and the other two a shilling each—after a little time the house was about to be closed, and we all went out together—before that they said I was the best man they had met some time, that I was a gentleman for giving them what they asked for—after they left the house, they said they were going aboard their vessel, and should go the same way as where, I lived, for it would be the nearest way—they accompanied me and kept repeating that I was the best man they had ever met with—I got about seventy yards, and all at once I was down on my back—the three attacked me, one at each side and one at my back—they knocked me down right on my back—they were all three together—the prisoner was behind me—it was done so quickly, that I could hardly tell who gave me the lay, but I went back, and this man was behind—while I was on the ground they said, "He is down now, boot him," and they did boot me; that is being kicked—it is the common expression among the Yankee sailors—while I was on the ground, I felt a hand in my right-hand trousers' pocket—to the best of my opinion it was Cavanah's hand, not the prisoner's—they took about 35s. out of ray pocket—I was struggling with them to get up—I was kicked about the head and I had this eye completely closed—I thought it was completely out.

COURT. Q. Which kicked you? A. All of them; and some struck me with their fist, but I could not tell which did that—I was struck in the face and kicked right in the eye and on the top of the head, two or three times, and I could not see out of my eye—the kicking lasted perhaps about two minutes—I shouted out, "Murder I" and "Police!" while it was going on—upon that two of them ran away—I held Thomas by the front of the shirt, because he was leaning over me and said he would cut my God d—n finger off—the prisoner ran away while I was struggling with Thomas—I am sure the prisoner is the man.

Prisoner. This man asked me to go and have some tea with him; I would not go with him, but told him we were going aboard ship; we followed him; I was walking with Thomas, the prosecutor was walking with Cavanah, The prosecutor said that some one had put their hand in his pocket. Cavanah said, "It is not me, I hope you don't think it is me." The prosecutor said, "You are a liar 1" and then there was a fight between them; he struck Cavanah; I don't know which struck first I wanted Thomas to come away; but he would not, but went and sat down on the kerb-stone. I went away and presently Cavanah came up with me, and we afterwards went aboard the ship and slept there that night. Witness, That is not true.

JOHN HUGHES (Policeman, M 249). In consequence of information I received, I apprehended the prisoner in Chambers-court, Ratcliff-high way, on 10th September—I took the prosecutor with me to identify him, and said to the prisoner, "You are charged with being concerned with two others in robbing this man with violence, in the highway"—he said, "I stood on the bank and saw him knock him down, and then he came over to me and said, 'Let's make a run of it' and we ran across the bridge into Commercial-street"—I was looking for him from the Sunday.

HENRY KELLY (Policeman, M 55). I was on duty about 12 o'clock on this night, and heard some one call "Police! murder!"—I ran to the place and found the prosecutor there lying on his back, and Thomas struggling with him, and I saw this knife (produced)—I took Thomas into custody—I heard the footsteps of two men running away in the opposite direction, as I thought, to that from which I came—the prosecutor was quite sober—I afterwards picked up this cap (produced) where the prosecutor was lying—Cavanah claimed it as his property—Thomas' cap was down—the prosecutors right eye was closed up, and he was bleeding from the side of the face—he also had bruises about the head—he had hold of Thomas by the shirt—Thomas w as in a stooping position over him—(Thomas was here placed at bar)—that is Thomas.

Prisoner. Q. Were you not drinking outside the Plough that nigh? A. No.

COURT to JOHN HUGHES. Q. Was the prisoner searched? A. He was—I found nothing on him except a paper—this assault was on the 7th—I took him in custody on Tuesday, the 10th.


(See next case).

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-823
VerdictGuilty > unknown

Related Material

823. WILLIAM THOMAS (19), and THOMAS CAVANAH (17), were indicted for a like offence.

MR. ROWDEN conducted the Prosecution.

JAMES CALAN . I am stevedore of the ship Grace Darling—on the night of 7th September I was returning to my house about half-past 11, or nearly 12 o'clock—I went into the Plough Inn, Rotherhithe—I was sober—the primers, accompanied by another man, came up to me—they said that they belonged to a vessel called the Cambria, and were not going to get paid of till the following Monday, and they wanted a friend—they asked me if I was stevedore of the Grace Darling, and said that their ship lay ahead of the Grace Darling—said that I would be their friend as far as it was in my power, but that I was only a poor man—I took them into the public-house and treated them—the two prisoners afterwards asked me for a shilling apiece, and I gave it to them, and some drink—I gave 2s. to the other man—they said I was a God d—good friend—when the public-house was dosed we left—they said they were going aboard their vessel, or were going the same way as I was—the two prisoners and Gothiel accompanied me towards the ship—after I had got some way on my road I was knocked, down—the prisoners were one at each side of me—they and the other man got me down on my back, and said, "Boot him," sod "kick him"—it appeared to me that they all said it—I was struck at first by the prisoner Cavanah, and I could also feel a kicking at my right side—Cavansh struct me on the face—I was struck as well as kicked—I swear to Cavanah being' the man who struck me—that was the first blow, as I was falling—when I was on the ground they all three kicked me—Thomas was kicking me and knocking me about while I was lying on the ground, and he was partly, holding me down, leaning on my chest while I was on the ground—I laid

hold of him by the front of his shirt, and hallooed out, "police" and "murder!"—I thought my eye was knocked out of my head—when hallooed out I felt the hand of one of them in my pocket—I could not swear whose hand it was—my money was taken out—after I hallooed "police!" Thomas kept struggling to get away, and he took out a knife and said he would cut my God d—fingers off if I did not let him go—I held him till the constable came up and took him—the knife was of this description (produced)—I could not swear to it—Kelly came up and took Thomas into custody, and took the knife from him—I went with Kelly and Thomas to the policestation—going along Thomas said that I was a gentleman, and a God d—good friend for giving them what they asked for—he said it was not he that was the cause of it; that it was Gothiel and the other prisoner.

Thomas. I was in the Plough public-house that night, and the man told me that he was the stevedore of the Grace Darling and asked roe to drink—I did so, and he lent me a shilling; we were drinking there till about I! o'clock—we came out, walked down towards the ship—I was sitting on the kerbstoue and saw Cavanah knock him down; Gothiel was a little dittos off—I walked over to the prosecutor, and then he got hold of me and held On to me and called out for the police—I was intoxicated, and I believe he was. Witness. That is not true.

HENRY KILLY (Policeman, M 66). On 7th September I was on duty in Plough-road, Rotherhithe—between 11 and 12 o'clock I heard cries of "police I" and "murder!"—I went to the spot, and saw Thomas struggling with the prosecutor, who was on his back—Thomas was in a stooping position, with this knife, and the prosecutor had hold of him by the shirt Thomas had the prosecutor by the neck—I caught Thomas's hand and pulled him back and took this knife from him—the prosecutor was sober—his eye was closed up, and he was bleeding from the side of the face; he was grently knocked about—he said, "Policeman, save my life"—when I took Thorns I heard the sound of two parties running away in an opposite direction—I picked up this cap—Cavanah saw me taking it to the station, and said, "That's my cap."

THOMAS JACKSON (police-sergeant, M 5). In consequence of information I received, I went to Sunderland, and arrived there on the 17th—I found Cavanah at the police-station, and took him in custody there—I had given instructions—he had a cap on—I told him I should take him to London on a charge of being concerned with two others in robbing a man at Rotharhithe, near the Plough public-house, on the 7th—he said, "I should like to rob some of them now of a loaf of bread."

COURT. Q. Did he admit or deny robbing the prosecutor? A. He denied it—he said that he was at the Plough public-house on the night in question and there was a row in the road, with which he had nothing to do.

Witness for the Defence.

LOUIS GOTHIEL (the prisoner in the last case). When we left the public-house Calan asked us to go home and have some tea with him—I told him no, it was rather late—I saw he was rather tight, and I would not go home with him—he said, "Are you going aboard a ship?"—I said, "Yes, we are"—he said, "Come along with me my way, it is all in your way, it will make your way shorter," and I found that it did—we all three followed him—I was walking with Thomas, the prosecutor was walking with Cavanah—the prosecutor blamed some one for putting their hand in his pocket, and Cavanah said, "It is not me, I hope you don't think it is me;" the prosecute said, "You are a liar," and then they had a fight—I do not know which struck first—

he struck Cavanah—I said to Thomas, who was drunk, "You had better come along with me, let us keep clear of the row"—he refused, and went and sat down on the kerbstone, and then I left him and walked off and was crossing the bridge, and then Cavanah overtook me—we went into the plough again, stopped there a few minutes, and then went back by the same spot, and went aboard the ship, and slept there that, night.

Cross-examined by MR. ROWDEN. Q. Then when this happened you ran a way? A. No, I walked; not fast—Cavanah was running away faster then I—when I walked away Calan and Cavanah were on the ground together—the bridge was about seventy or seventy-five yards from there—Cavanah overtook me—I did not stop on the bridge—I had left Thomas sitting on the kerbstone, drunk, about three yards from where the prosecutor had the row; he could not take care of himself—we all came out of the Plough together—we walked two and two to the place where I afterwards saw Thomas sitting on the kerbstone—Thomas and I were walking behind, sad the other two were in front—we three did not change positions after we had walked sixty or seventy yards—neither of us two went forward, and neither of the others came behind—we stopped still—Thomas did not walk along very well, I had to hold him up in the beet way I could—we walked arm in arm—when we came to this spot where the row was I was three yards behind the prosecutor—Thomas was alongside of me on my left—Cavansh was right ahead, rolling on the ground with the prosecutor—I do not know who struck first—I saw them fall together—I do not know which undermost—Thomas was then with me about three yards behind them—after they fell I went back to the Plough again, and Cavanah joined me at the bridge, seventy-five yards down the street—there is another road that leads from the Deptford-road, across the bridge, right opposite the Plough—I was quite sober.

COURT to JAMES CALAN. Q. This witness says something about a hand being in your pocket, was there anything about that? A. Yes; as I was going along the road some one put his hand in my pocket, but I thought it was a joke—I think it was Cavanah—I did not take any notice of it—I thought nothing of it—that was when he was calling me a good fellow.

GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months each.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-824
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty; Guilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude; Imprisonment > penal servitude

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824. WILLIAM TAYLOR (28), and JAMES DONOVAN (31) , Burglariously breaking and entering the dwelling-house of William Ruddick, and stealing therein 100 slate pencils, and other articles, his property; to which

DONOVAN PLEADED GUILTY .— Four Years' Penal Servitude.

MR. DICKIE conducted the Prosecution.

WILLIAM RUDDICK . I am a teacher, living at York-street, Newington—on the morning of 15th September, about 3 o'clock, I heard a noise as of shutting a window—I and my wife went down stairs—as I passed through the back room I distinctly heard two persons talking in the school-room—I unlocked the door and went into the room, and saw two persons in the room at a cupboard—I recognise Donovan as one of them, and one was very much like Taylor—he had a cap on then—one was standing on a chair, and one on a stool—I called to them, asking what they did there—they both jumped down; one ran towards me and threw me down on the floor—Donovan was the first that came to me—the other said, "Hold him down"—Donovan severely assaulted me—the police-constable afterwards came and took him, and he severely assaulted him—by great exertion I made my escape from them, and went in and shut the door on them; I went to the front door

afterwards, and found one of them bad made his escape by that door—the other I saw coming out from the window, and I caught him—I was in the school-room at a quarter past 12—they were all shut up then, all the windows were—there was a rope that fastened that window; I found that that had been cut—it was all safe the night before—there were three passes put of glass also broken—my desk was not broken open, it had not been looked—the lock of the cupboard was broken—there was nothing taken out of the house but a box of things and a piece of cloth; the things were strewed about the room—I saw Donovan at the station drop a skein of thread, which was mine—I found a cap on the Sunday morning at the place when I was thrown down—I took it to the station-house.

MARY ANN RUDDICK . I am the prosecutor's wife—on the morning of 15th September I heard a noise—I followed my husband down stain—I did not enter the room with him, hearing two; I rushed out at the private entrance to scream for assistance—I afterwards found a lot of things scattered about the room—I saw a man precisely like the prisoner Taylor run away without a cap on his head—I could not see his face, but I am fally persuaded be is the man.

COURT. Q. When you went out at the private entrance what did you see? A. Nothing at first, but the school door was opened hastily, and a man, whom I take to be Taylor, rushed out past me—I was afterwards takes to the police-station to identify some one—he had no cap when he passed me—I was calling for assistance at the time; calling "Police! police I" very loudly and the police rushed up—I pointed to the man who had rushed past—he was going after that man when Donovan made his appearance at the window, and I called to the police to come back—the policeman heard my voice, and returned just in time to assist my husband in holding Donovan—I was to the station with my husband and one of the policemen—I was there asked if I should know the man; I said if I could see him directly; I was fully impressed with his personal appearance, a short thickset man—the policeman said, "Will you come into the room with me and see if you can point him out from others"—I went, and pointed out Taylor—I think there was three others with him—I pointed him out as being the man precisely like the one that ran past me—the morning after the robbery I found an old concertina which belonged to us, on the slates of a water-closet—it was removed from an old basket, where they had first made the attempt to enter the house—I saw some skeins of thread picked up—I know them to be mine.

Taylor. There was only mo and the other prisoner, and a female together. A. I said there were three persons—I pointed to you, and you job said, "Do you say I am the man?" and I said, "I do not say you are the man, but you are precisely like the man"—you were not then charged with anything.

THOMAS TOOTH (Policeman, P 85). On the moraine of 15th September I was on duty near Mr. Ruddick's house—about 3 o'clock I heard a rattle spring there, and met the prisoner Taylor running very fast from the direction of that house, without a cap—I stopped him, and asked him what he was running so for; ho said he had been fighting in Park-place, and there were so many of them that he was compelled to run away—I went back with him to Park-place and did not find a soul there, nor any appearance of a scuffle—Park-place is about a quarter of a mile beyond the school, in the same road—I took him to the station, and afterwards took his boots off, and took them to the prosecutor's garden, and tried them with

some marks there—I tried them in the mould, beside a foot-print—I found the marks generally correspond—this left boot was worn very much at the heel, and this side had sunk further into the ground than the other side, because his weight bore more on that side—I was improved with the idea that those boots corresponded altogether with the marks I saw.

Printer. There are plenty of boots worn away on one side like that boot.

COURT. Q. Was that cap brought to the station? A Yes, and was shown to Taylor—he would not acknowledge that it was his—he said that his cap had got a shiny peak to it—Donovan had a cap when he was brought to the station—I do not know exactly what sort.


Taylor was further charged with having been before convicted.

CHRISTOPHER NEEDHAM (Policeman, M 60). I produce a certificate (Read: "Kington Assizes, March, 1867. William Taylor, convicted of housebreaking and stealing—Confined Eighteen Month.")—I was present—the prisoner Taylor is the person.

GUILTY**†— Eight Years Penal Servitude.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-825
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

Related Material

825. CHARLES NOAH (24) Burglariously breaking and entering the dwelling house of John Brown, and stealing therein 1 stocking and 4s. 8d. in money, his property; to which he

PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months.

Before Mr. Recorder.

23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-826
VerdictGuilty > lesser offence; Not Guilty > unknown

Related Material

826. THOMAS FARRELL (40), and WILLIAM NORTH (18) , Burglariously breaking and entering the dwelling-house of Joseph Wood, and stealing therein 15 1/2 yards of carpet, 1 coat, 1 shawl, and 1 brooch, his goods. Second Count, Feloniously receiving the same.

JESSE BENFORD (Policeman, P 403). On the night of 20th August, about twenty minutes past 11, I was on duty in Lion-street, New Kent-road, and, saw both the prisoners there, with another person—Farrell was carrying this roll of carpet (produced)—I asked him what he had got there—he wanted to know what the h—that was to do with me—I said I should know before I tent away—he said, "If you must know, it is a carpet," and that he had bought it six weeks ago of Mr. Edwards, a hawker, who was trying to sell it I asked him "Where?"—he said, "At a beer shop"—I said, "Where?"—he aid, "Oh, you want to know too much"—we walked about 150 yards together, and the prisoner Farrell up with the carpet and threw it at me—I recovered myself from falling, and he had run away—I ran after him, caught him, and he turned round and struck at me in my private parts—North ran away directly he saw me stop Farrell.

Farrell. I dropped the carpet.

North Q. Do you say I was with Farrell? A. Yes; I can swear to you, because I have known you for the last three yean—T know you by your dress and your person altogether—you had a hat on.

COURT. Q. Have you ever seen him with the other prisoner before 1 A. Never to my knowledge.

WILLIAM GRIFFIN . I am nephew to Mr. Joseph Wood, of 4, Victoriaplace stage-carriage proprietor—on Monday, the 27th, I think, I locked up the house quite safe at 10 o'clock—I got up at 5 o'clock next morning, and found the back kitchen window and the street door open—I first missed this carpet and then a coat—that carpet was safe in my uncle's house the night before.

COURT to J. BENFORD. Q. Had you seen either of the prisoners before on to same night? A. Yes, both of them, with another man, at ten minutes

to 11, in New-street, Lion-street, on the road to the prosecutor's premises, about 300 or 400 yards off it—when I met them carrying the carpet they were about 500 or 600 yards off it.

THOMAS BARTLETT . I live at 27, Tiverton-street, Newington-causeway, and am a wine-cooper—on Tuesday, 20th August, I was in New-street, at a friend's house, at half-past 10—I observed some persons looking about, which attracted my attention, and I called the attention of the policeman to them—North is one of them—I knew him previously by sight—I am sure of him—I do not know the others—I passed them again afterwards in New-street and in Lion-street, and saw one of them carrying a roll of carpet—I saw a policeman go up to them.

North. Q. Did you say that it was on Friday A. No; I said that it was on a Friday that the policeman came to me.

COURT. Q. was it on the same day that you saw the man stopped with the carpet that the policeman came to you? A. Yes; I have no spits against North—I never had a quarrel with him.

Farrell to W. GRIFFITHS. Q. Will you swear this is your carpet? A. Yes; I know it by the pattern and appearance—our foreman is here who bought it—he knows it.

GEORGE WESTHAM . I am the prosecutor's foreman—I can speak to this carpet—I bought it in Cheapside on 18th February last—we have not sold any of it—we used it ourselves, and there were 15 1/2 yards left.

Farrell's Defence. I bought this carpet of a hawker; he wanted 25s. for it, and I gave him 1l. I was carrying it home when the policeman came up. I thought he was going to apprehend me for hawking without a license, and so I ran away. I do not know the prosecutor's place.

North's Defence. I had been playing at skittles on Tuesday night. I came out at a quarter to 10, and stood at my mother's door in New-street I saw Ann Stephens, a lodger, and stood talking to her; another lodger came up, and I asked them if they would have something to drink; we want to Lake's and had something. Just as we came out, one of the females said, "There is a man going to be locked up." I said "Oh!" and saw three policemen, and one with a roll of carpet. On Thursday night I was at the Elephant and Castle, and a policeman tapped me on the shoulder, and said, "Is your name Warre? "I said, "No; my name is William North." He said, "I want you for a robbery." I said, "I have done no robbery." I went down with him to the station. He said, "You know something of a roll of Brussels carpet?" I said, "No." He said, "Do you know a man named Farrell?" I said "No;" and then I remembered the man I saw a New-street with a roll of carpet. I said, "I do remember seeing a man with a roll of carpet with the policeman." He said, "That is the man." I thought they had taken me for that man. They are mistaken. I am innocent. I have witnesses who were with me on that night.

North called

MARY ANN STEPHENS . I remember seeing a person going with a roll of carpet, taken by some policemen—I had been with North that evening—I first saw him about 10 o'clock at his mother's door—I remained with him there a few minutes, and then went with the young woman lodger to have a glass of ale at Mr. Lake's, in Walworth-road, with two more female friends of mine—we remained about ten minutes—I was the first person out, and I saw the person being taken away with the carpet—I think that was about twenty minutes past 10—I looked at the time before going from home—it was then about five minutes to 10—I occupy a room in the prisoner's

mother's house—I never saw Farrell before—I do not know whether he is the person I saw with the carpet—I did not see his face—I think one of the policemen was carrying it—there were two policemen taking him along—I get my living by boot-binding, in Mr. Rabbitt's employ—I know of North being taken in custody, and being brought up before the Magistrate—I was there, and gave my evidence—I saw the policemen Benford afterwards—he came to the house—I did not tell him North was at home—I denied that at Kennington-lane—his mother asked what he was taken for, and Benford aid that he was taken on suspicion of being concerned in a burglary at Mr. Wood's—I then told him that we saw a man taken with the carpet.

COURT to JESSE BENFOR. Q. Did you have any conversation with the witness Stephens? A. Yes; she said that North was at home at the time.

COURT to THOMAS BARTLETT. Q. What day of the week was it you saw the three persons? A. Tuesday—Monday night was the night of the burglary.

FARRELL— GUILTY on the second Court. — Confined Twelve Months ,


23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-827
VerdictsNot Guilty > unknown

Related Material

827. WILLIAM BARTLETT (31), and CHARLES STORER (34) , Stealing 9 1/2 lbs. weight of tea, the property of Frederick Besley, their master, and JAMES HARRIS (63,) feloniously receiving the same.

MESSRS. METCALFE and BESLEY conducted the Prosecution.

FREDERICK JOHN BESLEY . I am the son of Mr. Frederick Besley, the proprietor of Nicholson's Wharf, and Beale's Wharf—a large quantity of tea is bonded at Beale's Wharf—a great portion of it is disposed of by public auction at Mincing-lane—before those auctions take place, samples are allowed to be taken, on the production of an authority, in the shape of a card, signed by Mr. William Thompson, who is secretary to the Broker's Association—any person coming with a proper card would proceed to sample—it was the foreman's duty to take out the samples and show them—Storer was the sale foreman in our employ, and Bartlett was employed occasionally an assistant sale-foreman—both of them had been in our employ some years—they were perfectly well aware of the rules and regulations as to samples—if persons came there with a proper card, they would not be allowed to take away tea, without giving returns, in even quality and quantity—it was the duty of the party who served the individual to receive those returns—book was kept of the persons who came to sample—they signed the book—they sign their own names, and the name of the firm for whom they sample, and also the number of the card, and authority, and the size of the measure which they are entitled to take—it was more particularly Storer's duty to see that the book was signed by the persons requiring samples—this is the book (produced)—there was a show of tea at Beale's Wharf on Saturday, 14th September, preparatory to public auction—I find a number of names entered in the book—it is filled up in the usual way, with the exception that the signature of the foreman who attends to individuals is not here—I do not find any person named Harris here—I know Storer's and Bartlett's writing—I find no entry in their writing here on that day—I know Storer had charge of the book on that day.

MR. POLAND. Q. Where you there on that day? A. I was not there on that day—I know that Storer was in charge of the book on all occasions that there was a sale—it is his duty to see that this book is signed—he had it under his charge on all occasions—it is solely under his charge.

MR. BESLEY. Q. I may take it that Harris's name is not there on 14th September. A. No. I have sampled to myself on some occasions, and am

aware of the regulations with regard to the card—I was present on Saturday 14th, when Bartlett and Storer were brought into the counting-house by Lloyd, the police-constable at Nicholson's Wharf—I did not ask then any questions—I heard Bartlett say something in answer to a question that was asked him—I did not hear the question—something was said about returns—Bartlett said they were going to be sent subsequently, and Storer endorsed that observation—I hare never heard of samples being taken without returns being made at the time.

Cross-examined by MR. POLAND, (for Bartlett and Storer). Q. Is this card, an authority to a man to give samples? A. Yes: I understand that Harris had a card some years ago—the card is a general authority for persons to come to all sales, to take samples, and to inspect the teas—if a person is well known, and has been in the habit of using a card, and has left it at home by accident, the man would not be justified in allowing that person to look it samples without coming to me—I was never at Messrs. Goddard & Co's; my brother, Frederick Besley, is there now—he is in the habit of taking samples of tea.

Q. Suppose he came without his card; left it behind by accident, would not the man allow him to come in? A. I never heard of such an instance and I have been in charge of that department about five years—I should not know of it, or have any means of hearing of it unless some one told me—the men have no authority to have any option in the matter—I think Bartlett has been eleven years in our service, and Storer about fire—they were both there before I had the management at all—there have been other men besides them there, but not of late—if two or three people came in together, both men might or might not attend to one party—both their writing is in the book frequently—it is their duty to see that the person taking the samples make the proper entry, and sign their names and the quantity of things taken, and the person showing, signs in this column—there are a number of separate entries of Bartlett and Storer—this book is inspected by us—it is not examined from day to day—I have never known an instance of samples being taken by persons well known to ourselves and our servants without their actually depositing other samples in their place—I have known an instance where we have sent our clerk up for a card when it was left behind—I do not know of any case where a person has been to different sales and come to our premises late in the day with his stock of returns exhausted, and has obtained samples from our premises and then sent returns on the next day—I think there have been cases where samples have been drawn and left in our custody—even if my brother had not brought his card, strictly the duty of the man would be, not to part with the samples; whether they have done so or not, I cannot say—it is a large room where these shows take place—I believe Bartlett can write and read writing easily—I cannot say it for a fact—I should not have put him into that position if I had not known it—it is the practice of our firm that person employed should be searched when they go in in the morning and when they leave the premises—there is a gate-keeper whose duty it is to search them.

Cross-examined by MR. BEST (for Harris). Q. How long have you been ingaged in the sale of teas at Beale's Wharf? A. We don't sell tea, we are ware-house-keepers—I have been engaged in that business about five years—I don't know that I have seen Harris during that time—I am there every day—I do not superintend the sampling of teas—I superintend the warehouse generally—I am in the office—I do not see the persons who come in and out—we place implicit trust in the men who are under us—I did not inspect the

books every day, until we had suspicion—I used to examine them, three or four times during a sale which lasted about a week—we weigh our chests of tea when they come into the warehouse—we should not know of any deficiency in it except it was very large—I cannot say that there was any deficiency in these teas that we charge the prisoner with—I bare not weighed them, so I cannot tell.

MR. METCALFE. Q. You say that the persons are searched when they go out? A. yes: it is done in a very loose kind of way—I have seen it done—they jut draw the hand down—the man gets to do it in a very loose kind of way, more especially with a man that he knows—I was employing a detective at the time I was examining the books, and I did not wish to arouse suspicion—there is no such name as Harris mentioned on 3d August, as a firm whom the teas are for, or as the person drawing them—I find Storer's and partlett's names as acting on that day—Harris's name is not in this book at all—the earliest date in the book is Wednesday, 21st March, 1860.

COURT. Q. If Harris came in, not to sample, would his name be entered? A. No; this is only the entry for those who take samples.

MR. METCALFE. Q. Would persona be allowed to view without the production of a card? A. No.

MR. BEST. Q. Can, any one go in who has a catalogue? A No; not without a card—no one can go to sample without a card signed by the Secretary, Mr. Thompson.

GEORGE FREDERICK STBINGER (City-policeman, 111). I have been engaged in watching Beale's Wharf since 12th July—On 13th July I saw Bartlett go into Langbourn Chambers, come out, and meet Harris about half-way across the road—they then returned into the office—Bartlett at that time was carrying a blue bag, pretty well full—I afterwards saw him come out again—he had nothing with him then—Harris came to the end and saw him away—Langbourn Chambers is full of offices—there is a long passage to the house—the name of "James-Harris" is up there—I have been into the place—he occupies a small room on the second floor—there is no warehouse whatever—I next saw Bartlett on the 15th (Referring to some memoranda)—he first came and fetched Harris from the shop in Lime street, and they both went into the Chambers together—I noticed nothing particular on that day—they remained then about ten minutes and then Bartlett went away by himself—on the 16th I saw Bartlett go to Harris's, fetch him from the shop, and they both went into Langbourn Chambers, and I noticed that Bartlett was buttoning up his clothes, putting himself together; his waistcoat was undone—on 17th June I saw him go in—he had a black bag in his hand, pretty well full, and in coming out he was folding it up, it was empty—on 20th July I again saw him go into Harris's office with his pockets full of something, and in coming cut he had a large blue bag three parts full—I watched him from Beale's wharf—he went into the Swan public house in Ring William-street first, and, then went into Langbourn Chambers, that was the first time I had teen him come from the wharf; he went almost every day for the last two months, generally carrying something in with him, sometimes in his pockets, and sometimes in a bag—I saw Harris on almost every occasion, Bartlett would go into the Chambers first, Harris would not be there, and then Bartlett would go over to the shop in lime-street, fetch Harris from there, and they would both go to the Chambers together—I had never seen anything whatever pass between them up to the Saturday that I took them into custody—on 3d August I was going myself to sample, and on getting to the door I met Harrris coming out; he had a large blue bag full of something; it was the

same sort of bag that I have described as carried by Bartlett—I want and took samples and gave returns—I noticed the book, and saw that Harris's had not signed it—both the other prisoners were there—the book that has been produced was lying in its ordinary place—it was about midday, between 12 and 1—on that same evening I saw Bartlett go into Harris's office—I had previously seen Bartlett and Storer coming away from the warehouse together; when they got about three parts over the bridge, Bartlett would stap on ahead—sometimes Storer would take the other side of the way—I never saw them bring anything away from Beale's wharf—I have seen Bartlett bringing things away from the Swan, and from another public-house, and I have seen him before he has gone in—he has not taken anything in with him that I have seen—on 14th September I watched the entrance to Beale's wharf, and about I o'clock in the morning I saw Harris go in; I followed him ad went to the tea floor of the warehouse, he was then sitting at a table sampling, I took a seat at a table between the chest that was being sampled and Harris, Bartlett was at the chest and be took a tray of tea to Harris and called out, "Storer, here is a gentleman waiting when you art ready to come," referring to me, Storer then came to me and brought me a sample and then went away for a minute, I hallooed after hum "What is this folio and Bartlett hallooed to Storer, "This is the folio," and then Bartlett brought me my samples and Storer took two to Harris, Bartlett then took Harris another tray full of tea, and after Harris had packed the pareels up I saw him put them in his bag and go out of the tea floor—I got hold of my samplings as quick as I could, signed the book, and as I was going out Bartlett hallooed after me, "Have you signed the book?" I ran and caught Harris up in Tooley-street—he was then being followed by another constable, I signed the name of "Bow" in the book—I told Harris I was a police-officer, And I wanted to know the contents of that bug, he said "Tea," I said "Where did you get it," he said "Nichol" going Nicholson, and he stopped and said, "Beale's wharf;" I said, "What description of tea is it?" he said, "Really I cannot say;" I said, "What quantity have you got or what quantity have you taken from Beale's wharf?" he said, "Can you remember every one that you simple, if you can you are a clever follow I can-not;" with that I said, "You must come back with me to Beale's wharf;" going along I said, "Of course you have got your returns for what you have had;" he said, "I gave my returns when I had drawn my samples"—upon arriving at the wharf I took possession of the book and sent for Lloyd and Mr. Besley—upon their arrival they gave Harris into my searched—I searched him—I did Hot find any sample card upon him—I found in the bag, eight parcels of t en, which I identify as those he was packing up (produced)—there are five each parcel—I also found a canvass bag containing 7 lbs. of tea, and 15 1/2 lbs. loose in the large bag—this is the style of bag I bad seen Bartlett with—I subsequently searched Harris's chambers, I found no sampling card there or any bill-head of his business or anything of that kind—there was about 2 cwt of tea I should think—I was in a position to see what Harris did—I am quite sure Harris did not give any returns or show any card.

Cross-examined by MR. POLAND. Q. Where were the 7 lbs. of tea? A. In the blue bag lying at the top of the loose tea—besides that there was 15 1/2 lbs. loose tea—there was some tea in the bag when Harris went in, but nothing so full as when he came out—there was a large quantity in it, it might be nearly half fall, about half the quantity that there was when he came out—I don't care about answering where I was watching from, outside Beale's wharf—I was in some premises on the first floor on the opposite side of the

way—I saw Harris go into Beale's wharf, and I left the first floor, went down, into the street and into Beale's wharf—the room where the sampling takes place is on the second or third floors—I think when I got into the room. Harris was facing me as I walked down—there were perhaps three or four samples before him—there are tables in the room whore the persons sit to examine the samples—I went to another table—I could touch Harris's table from where I was—Storer came and attended to me; it was Bartlett who called after me, "Have you signed the book?"—Bartlett and stored leave who called after me, about 4 o'clock in the afternoon—that is the time their day's work ends—Beale's wharf is on the Surrey side of the river—Bartlett and Storer live on the Middlesex side—the nearest way would he over the bridge—they sometimes walked together fur a little way and there Bartlett would go on in front—I have been watching about two months; not from the secret place all the time—I could always see them leave—about the first seven days, I watched Harris's premises in Fenchurch-street—I have seen them over and over again come out of Beale's wharf after their day's work has been over—I simply took the samples up when I was sitting at the table—they are brought up in a tray and you fold them up in paper—I folded my own samples—I noticed every time they went and brought the tray full of tea—the blue bag was by Harris at the time—the tray was brought both by Bartlett and Storer, Bartlett brought the first tray them Storer brought two; and then Bartlett took the other and brought me two in the meanwhile.

Cross-examined by MR. BEST. Q. Have you got your pocket-book with you, that you made these entries in? A. Yes; I made the entries regularly day by day—sometimes I have been till 2 or 3 o'clock in the morning before I have entered them; there were exceptions—I may have been out late and therefore could not do it—I make up memoranda when I get home night, or at the office when I make my report out—there was a marking of the samples by Harris with pen and ink—I saw chests lying in the room—only one of those marks on here matched the catalogue—they bring you a tray of tea, and they call out the number of the cheat you are sampling from—I have not compared these numbers with the numbers of the chests—I took Harris into custody—I was at the police-court when something was said about Shuttleworth being there waiting for samples—that was the second time that I was there—Mr. Fletcher, the solicitor, asked me if I had seen Mr. Shuttleworth there—there was a young gentleman there, who it was I do not know—I don't know whether he was a sampler there; I cannot his business—I did not notice him while I was watching Harris, my attention was taken up watching the three prisoners—I do not, believe that his name was mentioned by Storer—it is possible that it was mentioned.

MR. METCALFE. Q. Did you find a catalogue on Harris? A. In the bag—on comparing these samples with that catalogue, I found no such mark in the catalogue, there was only one—there was no sample card of any sort—(A card in an envelope was here produced from amongst the tea, dated 15th June, 1852, admitting Mr. James Harris to select samples).

COURT. Q. The catalogue I suppose contains all the teas to be sold at the sales for which the samples were on view? A. Yes; they number the particular chests.

JOHN HAWKES (City-policeman). On Tuesday, 14th September, I was with Stringer—I saw Harris go into Beale's wharf and come out again into the street in about five minutes afterwards, with the blue bag that has been

produced, across his shoulders—I followed him—he went into a timber-yard in Tooley-street and handed the bag to a boy—Stringer came up in a minute afterwards, and I went back with them to Beale's wharf—I did not lose sight of Harris from the time he came out of the wharf till he got back there—I took the other prisoner into custody.

THOMAS LLOYD . I am a constable in the employ of Mr. Besley—on 14th Sept. I went to Beale's wharf, and saw Storer and Bartlett there—I said in their presence that some robberies had been committed in the warehouse, and asked them if they knew anything about it—Bartlett said "No"—I then asked Storer; he said no—I asked Bartlett if he knew a person named Harris—he said, "What Harris, as there are so many Harris's"—I said, "Harris that has recently gone down stairs"—he asked if I meant Harris of Fenchurch-street—I said, "I did"—he said, "I do not know him"—I then asked Storer if be knew anything of Harris, and he said 'No"—I than went for Hawkes.

CAROLINE ELIZABETH FARR . I am the wife of Thomas Farr of Langbourn Chambers—I know Harris and Bartlett—I have seen Bartlett there more than once—he has had a coarse canvass bag with him on those occasions nearly full—I hare also seen Storer there—I did not see the bag opened—I believe it contained tea, because I smelt it.

Cross-examined by MR. POLAND. Q. I believe your eyes are rather week, are they not? A. I am rather near-sighted—I speak positively to Storer now, I have seen him there—I was not always positive of him—I said at first that I did not know him, but I can swear to him now; he had not his hat on then—I knew a man rather like him some years ago, and it rushed across me that it was Storer—his name was Barton—I have seen him with will his hat off and on—I have seen Storer there more than once—when I saw him first, I felt certain he was the man, but I would not swear to him—I was not positive after I got home, and when I saw him I would not mm to him.

Cross-examined by MR. BEST. You are the laundress, I suppose? A. No; we had nothing to do with Mr. Harris, we have not done there for years—we did not go into his chambers—the bags have sometimes been left in the lodge, and sometimes outside the door of the office, while the partial have gone to fetch Mr. Harris who was not there—he has been there sixteen or seventeen years—I have seen tea come in, not many chests, bags of tea.

COURT. Q. Brought there by other persons besides Bartlett? A. Yes; I do not know whether Harris deals in coffee and sugar—I have seen Bartlett there several times during the last two months.

JOHN CHARLES AVERILLO . I am clerk to Mr. Thompson, Secretary to the Broker's Society, Mincing-lane—we issue these sampling cards—Harris has had a card, he ceased to have one in 1858.

Cross-examined by MR. POLAND. Q. How do you mean, look at that card? A Oh, this is an old card, this was issued in 1852, and the cards were out in 1858, and we had a re-issue, and certain names were struck out of the list—there was a Committee-meeting in 1858, and a new issue of cards in 1859—I did not issue the cards; I saw a list of the persons to whom they were issued—I have got it here, it was not made out by me—this is the new form of card (produced)—an old one would be rejected—the present number and name is 45, Messrs. Sterrick & Co, so there could not be two No. 45—this original card is not addressed to Beale's wharf—I do not think that was a bonded warehouse at that time.

Cross-examined by MR. BEST. Q. How long have you known Beale's

wharf? A. About three or four years—I do not know that it was formerly known as Nicholson's wharf.

FREDERICK JOHN BESLEY (re-examined). Beale's wharf has been a bonded warehouse about five years—Beale's wharf is on one side of the Thames and Nicholson's on the other—in 1852 my father had nothing to do with Beale's wharf—I have compared the tea produced here with samples that were at Beale's wharf; and it corresponds—I do not see that these eight packets are marked with anything to identify them with the catalogue—the usual way is to mark it so as to be able to identify the samples when they are taken home.

Cross-examined by MR. POLAND. Q. You say you have compared some of the tea with that in the canvass bag, is the tea at Beale's wharf? A. Yes; I have none of that tea with me—a sample was taken at the time, but not is my presence—the tea was brought before me, after having been taken out of the chest to compare with this—I did not take possession of the sample—I would not swear that it is a parcel of the same—Bartlett and Storer were the only two men in charge of that department at the time—I have not compared the loose tea in the blue bag.

Cross-examined by MR. BEST. Q. With regard to this sampled tea, take that catalogue and take those samples you have produced, and see if they do not correspond with the figures in that catalogue? A. There is a number 3368 which corresponds with the number on the catalogue with a parcel of tea at the London Docks—here is a cross against 179, which is a parcel of ten at Cutler-street; 247 is also a panel of tea at Cutler-street; 342 which is the number on the sample, corresponds with the number of some tea at Cutler-street—I see no corresponding number to 796—this catalogue does not belong to us, it is a catalogue of all the teas it comes from Mr. Thompson—it is not out—I am not aware that Mr. Harris has any tea now at Beale's wharf.

MR. BESLEY. Q. That catalogue contains entries of packages of all teas, your's and others. A. Yes.

The prisoners received good characters.


23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-828
VerdictNot Guilty > no evidence

Related Material

828. WILLIAM BARTLETT was again indicted for stealing on 10th September, 20lbs. weight of tea, and 2 paper bags, of Frederick Besley his master, upon which no evidence was offered.


23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-829
VerdictNot Guilty > no evidence

Related Material

829. CHARLES STORER was again indicted for stealing on 10th September, 3/4 lbs. weight of tea, of Frederick Besley, his master, upon which no evidence was offered.


23rd September 1861
Reference Numbert18610923-830
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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830. JAMES TAYLOR (39) , Stealing (in Essex ) a watch and chain of Peter McLean, from his person.

PETER MCLEAN . I am an innkeeper at West Ham. On 28th August I was trying to put a strolling fiddler out of my house about half-past 10 at night, and while doing so, the prisoner, who was there, in a very determined way, closed towards me six or seven times—I pushed him away—he caught hold of me to prevent my turning the fiddler out, and in less than half a minute afterwards I missed my watch from my waistcoat pocket—the prisoner was then gone.

Prisoner. Q. Were you sober? A. Quite—I have never seen the watch since.

JACOB STENSHIP NOGELINS (through an interpreter). I was discharged from