Old Bailey Proceedings.
19th August 1861
Reference Number: t18610819

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Old Bailey Proceedings front matter.
19th August 1861
Reference Numberf18610819

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Sessions Paper.








Short-hand Writers to the Court,








Law Publishers to the Queen's Most Excellent Majesty.




On the Queen's Commission of



The City of London,





Held on Monday, August 19th, 1861, and following days.

BEFORE the Right Hon. WILLIAM CUBITT , Lord Mayor of the City of London; Sir Hugh Hill, Knt., and Sir Colin Blackburn, Knt., two of the Justices of Her Majesty's Court of Queen's Bench; William Taylor Copeland, Esq.; Thomas Sidney, Esq. M.P.; Thomas Quested Finnis, Esq.; Sir Robert Walter Carden, Knt.; William Lawrence, Esq.; Warren Stormes Hale, Esq.; Thomas Gabriel, Esq.; John Joseph Mechi, Esq.; and Edward Conder, Esq.; Aldermen of the said City; Thomas Chambers, Esq. Q.C. Common Serjeant of the said City; and Robert Malcolm Kerr, Esq. Judge of Sheriffs' Court; Her Majesty's Justices of Oyer and Terminer and General Gaol Delivery of Newgate, holden for the said City, and Judges of the Central Criminal Court.









A star (*) denotes that prisoners have been previously in custody—two stars (**) that they have been more than once in custody—an obelisk (†) that they are known to be the associates of bad characters—the figures after the name in the indictment denote the prisoner's age.


OLD COURT.—Monday, August 19th, 1861.


Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-635
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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635. DENIS CRONIN (19), was indicted for stealing a watch and chain, value 5l. the property of Moritz Rose, from his person, having been before convicted at the Mansion House, 2d December, 1859; to which he.

PLEADED GUILTY .**— Confined Twelve Months.

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-636
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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636. CHARLES WILSON (62) , Stealing a breast pin, value 4l. 10s. the property of Thomas Read, having been before convicted at this Court, in August, 1860, by the name of Charles Williams; to which he.

PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months.

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-637
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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637. HENRY LEWIS (18) , Burglariously breaking and entering the dwelling-house of James Henry Beale, and stealing therein 4 cruet tops, his property. Second Count, receiving the same.

JAMES HENRY BEALE . I live at 57, Murray-street, New North-road, and am a cabinet maker—I missed four silver pepper tops on Wednesday-night, 17th July—I had seen them safe the night before—I went to bed at 11 o'clock—I left my house all safe when I went to bed—I saw the window of the back kitchen shut at that time—it was not fastened—it is a sash window—I came down at 7 o'clock in the morning, and found the window open, and the place all in confusion, and missed these four pepper castor tops—the policeman showed them to me on the Friday at Guildhall.

THOMAS EVANS (Policeman, G 22). I produce four pepper castor tops—I got them from Mrs. Storey, a marine store dealer in Golden-lane on the morning of the 18th, about 10 o'clock—the prisoner was in the shop at the time—Mrs. Storey was filing the castor tops to ascertain the metal—when I went in she put them into her pocket—I said, "Give me them pepper castors you have got"—she said, "What, I don't know what you mean"—I said, "Them that you have just put in your pocket"—she then pulled them out, and I said, "Where did you get them from?"—she then pointed to the

prisoner, who was standing by the side of the counter, and said he brought them in, and said he thought they were German silver—I took possession of them, and said to him, "Where did you get them from?" and he said he bought them of a shoe black boy in Old-street, yesterday, and gave him 4d. for them—I said, "Where about was the boy?" and he said, "Oh, he was walking along with his box on his back"—I took him into custody, searched him, and found a purse and a knife on him—I had not then heard of this robbery—I did afterwards, and communicated with Mr. Beale.

MR. BEALE (re-examined). These are my pepper castor tops.

JANE STOREY . I am a general dealer in Golden-lane—the prisoner did not offer me the castor tops for sale—he asked me if I could tell him what they were.

Prisoner's Defence. I was going through Old-street and saw a boy coming along, and he asked me to buy these; he said I should have them for 4d. I looked at them, and then came down Golden-lane, and asked the lady if they were silver, and the policeman came in and took me.


19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-638
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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638. WILLIAM FLINT (17) , Stealing a watch, the property of John Short, from his person.

MR. POLAND conducted the Prosecution.

JOHN SHORT . I am a warehouseman, of 20, Cullum-street, City—I was on the Custom-house quay on the night of 10th July—I am not certain as to the time—there was a rowing match going on—I was looking at it—I saw the prisoner there—when I first saw him he was standing on my right hand side, almost at right angles with my body—he took my watch—I did not see him take it—I felt a hand at my pocket—a man pushed against me from the front a minute or two before, to force me back from the edge of the river, to give the other an opportunity to operate on my pocket—I then felt something at my pocket—the prisoner was close to me at the time—I instantly looked down and saw the hand; I could not be mistaken, on account of the colour of his coat—I saw my chain drop and swing, and I saw his hand and arm pass down very rapidly—I instantly ascertained that my watch was gone from the end of my chain—finding it was gone, I seized his arm, and as I looked round I saw it in communication with a hand from behind—I seized the prisoner's arm, but the watch was gone—when I took hold of him, he commenced struggling with me—I said to him, "You vagabond, you have my watch"—I can scarcely say whether he said anything or not, for he commenced kicking and struggling immediately, and threw himself on the ground—there were some roughish people who pushed against me, and in particular the man who had forced me back from the edge of the river—I called for help—several tried to hustle the prisoner out of my hands—I forced my hand inside his neck cloth, and took him for some considerable distance before I could give him in custody—it was a gold watch.

Cross-examined by MR. COOPER. Q. I suppose there were a good many rough characters this day at the boat race? A. Yes—there was no crowding about me, all was perfectly quiet and passive—one of the boats was directly opposite—there were a good many people on the quay, but no crowding—I did not see my watch.

ALFRED STRIDE (City-policeman, 556). The prisoner was given into my custody—I found on him a pipe and tobacco pouch—I went to the address he gave me, and saw his mother there.

GUILTY .— Confined Six Months

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-639
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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639. THOMAS DAVIES (22) , Burglariously breaking and entering the dwelling-house of Thomas Leigh, and stealing a cap, value 1s. his property.

THOMAS LEIGH . I am a Trinity pilot, of 20, Stanesbury-road, in the parish of All Saints, Poplar—my house was broken into on 1st August between 2 and 3 in the morning—I was in bed—my wife awoke me, and told me there was a noise—I got up, and listened some time—I heard nothing, and I then opened the window, and saw what I took to be a man lying down on the top of the larder in the back yard—I asked who was there—there was no reply—I said, "If you do not speak I will shoot you"—I got no answer—the figure still remained there—I was about to dress to go down, and Mrs. Leigh called my attention to a man running away—I saw him—he came from the back part of the premises, towards the house to where his coat was lying—it was his coat that I had taken to be a man—he looked up and said that he had nothing of mine—he picked up his coat, and then ran through the yard again—I called, "Police"—he scrambled over the gate, and the policeman caught him just as he was outside the gate—I went down stairs afterwards, and found my house had been entered by the dining-room window—part of a pane of glass had been broken out—it would admit a man's hand right on to the fastening—the fastening had been undone, and the window opened—I missed only a cloth cap which had been left on the table in the dining-room—I have since seen the cap—the policeman showed it me—it was mine—I saw the prisoner directly afterwards in the policeman's hands—I saw him go into the policeman's hands.

ELIZABETH LEIGH . I live with my husband in this house—I fastened up the house the night before, and saw that the dining-room window was safe—I fastened it myself about a quarter to 11—none of the panes were then broken—I heard a noise in the night-and awoke my husband.

GEORGE BLENCOE (Policeman, K 255). I was on duty in Pigot-street, near Stanesbury-road, on this night, and heard a cry of "Police"—I ran up and saw the prisoner getting over Mr. Leigh's gate—I received him on the other side—he had his coat and his shoes and stockings off, and his shirt-sleeves turned up—he had this cap on; it was pulled right over his eyes—I lifted it up and said, "This cap is too big for you; let us have a look at you"—he said, "This is not my cap, I left mine in the parlour"—I then took him to the station.

ELIZABETH LEIGH (re-examined). The noise that awoke me was a chipping of the window, and when the glass fell out a little dog we have in the yard made a noise, and I heard the man say "Hush" to the dog.

MATTHEW JONES (Policeman, K 130). I went to the prosecutor's house, and on the dining-room table in the back parlour I found this cap (produced)—after I came out of the house I asked the prisoner if it belonged to him, and he said, "Yes, that is my cap"—he was quite sober.

GUILTY .**— Confined Twelve Months.

NEW COURT—Monday, August 19th, 1861.


Before Robert Malcolm Kerr, Esq.

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-640
VerdictsGuilty > pleaded guilty

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640. HENRY MUDD (19) , Forging and uttering a request for the delivery of 2 reams of paper; also, a request for the delivery of 4 reams of paper, with intent to defraud Richard William Starkey; to both of which he

PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months.

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-641
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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641. FREDERICK WILLIAM RICHARDSON (26) , Stealing 12 spoons, 12 forks, and 2 coats, value 20l., the property of Frederick William Bunyer, in his dwelling-house.

MR. COOPER conducted the Prosecution

SARAH MARY ANN BUNYER . I am the wife of Frederick William Bunyer, who keeps the Old Bell hotel, Holborn-hill—the prisoner came into his service on 30th March—I was present when he was hired, but not the whole time—I heard him say that he came from the Steyne Hotel, Worthing—he was hired as under waiter at 12s. a week, and slept and boarded in the house—he left on Saturday the 27th; he was to have left on the following Tuesday—Mr. Bunyer counted the plate on the night of the 26th and took it up into our bedroom; I brought it down next morning at quarter-past 6 in a round basket, and laid it on the table in the bar-parlour—the stairs leading to our bedroom are in the bar—that is the only way to our bedroom—until I come down and open the bar-door nobody can reach the bedroom—the prisoner then came in and took the plate-basket, which it was his duty and habit to do—I went to attend to getting some breakfasts ready, and the prisoner put the plate in the drawer where it is always kept—the plate we missed was wrapped up in plate-cloths in the basket, as it was silver, and not generally used—I saw nobody come in before the prisoner took the basket—afterwards, about 7 o'clock, the house-maid came into the bar-parlour, and the prisoner asked her what sitting-room company there would be—there is a cupboard in which the cruets used by sitting-room company are kept—I saw him go up stairs either once or twice; not the stairs down which I came, but the stairs leading to the sitting-room where the cupboard was—I did not see him go to the kitchen-door, but he had to attend on some customers in the coffee-room—he went out at nearly half-past 6—I did not see him with anything, but after that I saw him with a coat, or some coats, on his arm at the kitchen-door; that was between half-past 6 and 7—he had on the same coat that he wore when he came to me first; the same that he wore generally—he absconded at 7 o'clock, and I did not see him again till he was brought by the policeman—I had heard him ask the kitchen maid where a tailor lived, and some time after he left, some coats were missed from the coffee-room—I then went up stairs to the closet and found the key on the floor; it was generally placed in the cupboard—the lock goes hard, and there is great difficulty in opening it—I came down again and missed from the bar twelve silver table-spoons and twelve forks, wrapped in separate cloths, two pair of silver sugar-tongs, and two coats, value altogether 25l. or 26l.

Cross-examined by MR. ORRIDGE. Q. Has the key on the floor anything to do with it? A. No—the Old Bell is opposite Fetter-lane; there is a large yard, and my room is on the left-hand side—I did not see the prisoner count the plate, I saw him emptying it into the drawer; it was his place to put it there—we had a good character with him—I afterwards saw him go to the plate drawer and take out some tea-spoons, when I was getting some plate for the breakfast things I was setting—it was more than an hour after my putting the plate there that I missed it—no one else could have gone to the drawer without my seeing it—I was either in the bar or the kitchen, and there is only a glass partition between them—the only entrance to the bar-parlour is through the kitchen-door, but a person going

there would not have to go into the kitchen; it is on the other side of the way—there is no other door except through the kitchen or from my bed-room—the only outlet from the bar is through the kitchen, because we have not a public bar—the prisoner went about his work as usual—the cook and the housemaid were in the kitchen besides me—Mr. Bunyer's aunt, at Worthing, made inquiries about the prisoner—I did not go into his bed-room after he left; I never go in—his things had disappeared before he left; I know that from the servants—we had no sitting-room company that day—there was no other waiter or chambermaid going in and out—he did not, to my knowledge, leave Worthing before his time; we had a very good character with him from there—the porter was not in and out, no one went to the drawer but myself—I may have opened it to take a tea-spoon out, but I should not then have missed the plate, because it was at the back of the drawer and five butter-boats and other articles in front of it—I saw the butter-boats, and concluded that the other things were there.

COURT. Q. Was the drawer in the same state as it was at first? A. That was the first time I went to it, and I could not tell how he had put the things in.

WILLIAM FREDERICK BUNYER . I keep the Old Bell, Holborn-hill—on the night of 26th April, or early on the 27th, I counted the plate and carried it up into my bedroom, which was locked all night; that part of the house is entirely away from customers or servants—the prisoner came to me as under-waiter; he told me he came from the Steyne Hotel, Worthing, and referred me there—he left my house on the morning of the 27th without telling me that he was going, but he was to have left on the following Tuesday—I did not see him again till 1st or 2d July—you go down a gate-way, and the coffee-room is on the right and the bar and parlour are on the left.

Cross-examined. Q. What time did you come down? A. Not much before 9 o'clock—I counted the plate at 1 o'clock in the morning—on the day previous to the prisoner leaving he come to me about 12 o'clock in the day and asked me if I could allow him to go to Aldershot, as he wished to get a situation—I said, "Yes"—he asked for some money, and I gave him half a sovereign—he was entitled to 12s. if he stopped till the next Tuesday—I afterwards got a letter from him from Lewes, in Sussex, wishing me to send him money to come up and explain his conduct, or for me to go down there, as he heard there was a charge against him, and that his friends had discarded him and would not see him again till he had cleared it up—I wrote to him on 1st June, saying that I would not waste my money in going after him—it was after that that he came up to London.

MRS. BUNYER (re-examined). I saw the people in the coffee-room go, and the prisoner saw them off in a cab—that was perhaps twenty minutes before he went out with the coats.

CHARLES MARSHALL . I am head waiter at the Old Bell Hotel, Holborn-hill—on the morning of 27th April I came down about half-past 7 o'clock, went into the coffee-room, and missed two over-coats, which I had seen there when I locked up the coffee-room the night before—the value of them was about 3l.—they belonged to two gentlemen staying in the house.

Cross-examined. Q. What are their names? A. One is Steele, and the other Arnold—I do not know where they are now—I think they live in the country—they complained of the loss of the coats about 9 o'clock in the morning, when they wanted them to go out—there was not any dispute between me and the prisoner—something happened one night when he came

home; he felt dissatisfied with his situation—I cannot recollect what he said to me about it—Mr. Bunyer's mother stayed at that house for a time—she gave me some money when she left—the prisoner did not say that he ought to have had some, but I gave it to him—I did not hear him afterwards say that he had not had it—when I gave it to him he did not say he wanted more—there was no dispute about it—I did not come down on this morning till about half-past 7—these persons in the coffee-room were leaving early—they are not strangers to the hotel—they have often been there—I have been at the hotel about nine months—there were three persons in one party and one in the other—the three breakfasted together—the other did not breakfast with them—I did not hear any conversation about a tailor—I was not there then—I did not hear anything about the prisoner having torn his coat the day before—I did not go into his bed-room after he left—he left one or two small things; a night shirt, I think.

COURT. Q. Have those people been at the hotel since? A. One of them has.

WILLIAM NORMINGTON (City-policeman, 486). On 8th July, I was on duty in front of the Mansion House—the prisoner came up and said that he wished to give himself up—I asked him what for—he said he had heard that detectives had been down to his home after him; that he was charged with stealing plate from the Old Bell Inn, Holborn—I told him I would go with him to the station and see—I asked him when he left this place—he said it was a very cold, snowy day, at the latter end of April, on a Saturday, but could not recollect the day of the month—I took him to Bow-lane station, but could not find any information there—I took him to Mr. Bunyer, the Old Bell, Holborn—he was there given in custody—I then took him to Spitalfields' police-station—he stated that he left on the Saturday through difficulties; that Le ought to have left on the Tuesday—he said it was through a letter that he had received from his friends; that there was money owing at his lodgings which he was not able to pay, and he had likewise had a letter from his wife, stating that he would be served with a County Court summons, or something to that effect, if he did not pay for some bills that she had had printed.

Cross-examined. Q. Did he tell you he had written twice to Mr. Bunyer! A. He told me he had written to Mr. Bunyer—I searched him at Spitalfields' station, and found nothing at all—he told me he ought to have gone on the Tuesday, but he went on the Saturday, not being able to meet those payments.

COURT to WILLIAM FREDERICK BUNYER. Q. Was the reason for your giving him notice to leave, that he could not agree with the head waiter? A. Yes; he had kicked up a row on the Sunday night—he said he had had too much to do because the head waiter had been out.


19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-642
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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642. THOMAS PRICE (51) , Embezzling the sum of 5l. 7s. 6d., which he had received on account of his master, Lawrence Hyam.

JANE ARNOLD . I am a single woman, and live at Spitalfields—on 4th July, I paid the prisoner 5l. 7s. 6d. on account of Mr. Hyam—he gave me this receipt—(Read:—"Mr. Arnold, bought of Lawrence Hyam, 5l. 7s. 6d.; paid to S. Price, 4th July, 1861.").

JOHN BRIGGS . The prisoner was in Mr. Hyam's service as a porter—I sent him to Mr. Arnold with the goods referred to in that invoice—he was authorised to receive the money—his duty was to bring it back to me, and

give an account of it—he went away and never came back—I next saw him on the 11th—one of our men saw him go up the court, and came and told me, and I went up to the public-house, and it would appear that he was waiting there to see me—he wished to make it up—it was then in the hands of the police; I could not do anything with it—he had not been drinking then—he had been in our employment a fortnight, as a porter—he was under an agreement at 16s. a week—I believe Mr. Hyam had a reference with him.

Prisoner. Q. I was coming into the shop at that time when you saw me? A. Yes; you told me so.

Prisoner's Defence. When I received the money I tied it up in a handkerchief and put it in my pocket I went on with two parcels to Islington, and I got on a bus at Finsbury-square, and rode as far as the Angel, at Islington. Then I got out of the bus and went on and delivered the two parcels, and I never missed the money till I got into Bishopsgate-street. I had twenty-two years' character in the Army. I was in possession of nearly 20l. a year as a pension. I ought to have come back to Mr. Hyam, but I thought I would try and make it up before I came back. I cannot account for how I lost the money.


19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-643
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceNo Punishment > sentence respited

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643. HENRY HAMMOND (17) , Embezzling the sum of 5l. 13s. 3d. the money of Stephen Bridge, his master; to which he


Recommended to mercy by the prosecutor.— Judgment Respited.

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-644
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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644. JOHN GAVIN (19), and JAMES WILLIAMS (25) , Robbery on Richard Holmes Donnelly, and stealing from his person a watch and chain, value 4l. 10s., his property.

MR. LANGFORD conducted the Prosecution.

WILLIAM HOLMES DONNELLY . I live at 66, East-street, Lamb's Conduit-street, and am a civil engineer—on the morning of 11th July, about 3 o'clock, I was in Long Acre—I had drank something, but could very well have taken care of myself—I met three or four men, and they asked me some question—I took no notice of it, but I was suddenly struck—I do not know the man who got into conversation with me—I was struck in the mouth, and I think I received a trip, whether it was the kerbstone or not I do not know, but I fell—I do not know who it was struck me—when I fell one of the party took my watch out of my pocket, and broke the chain—when I got up I got hold of Gavin, who was just opposite me, and kept him—the constable then came up and asked me what I had lost—the prisoners could hear him. ask that—I cannot say whether they did—I said, "My watch"—I had not seen it at that time—he said, "I have it"—he did not show it to me—I went to the station with him and the two prisoners—I do not think I saw the watch at the station, I did the next morning—my watch chain was broken, it was not left in my pocket—the key end was broken and lost—I. got a portion again that was on the watch—this (produced) is my watch—I had it safe on I think the Wednesday evening, the day before this occurred—I felt it when it was being tugged away—when I was knocked down it was not more than an instant before I jumped up—Gavin was, I should Say, not more than a yard or four feet from me when I got up.

Cross-examined by MR. SMITH (for Gavin). Q. Was Gavin on the pavement? A. Yes—I think this occurred in the road—I did not rush to the first man I saw, but to the one that I considered to be the man—the party weight have consisted of four, perhaps only three, but to the best of my

recollection a number of persons came round—I cannot say whether there were any other persons besides these men—I was struck in front—I got a blow on the mouth—it was not a severe blow at all—something tripped me at the same time—I do not say that either of the prisoners struck me; I could not know—I believe I spoke to some of these men in answer to what they said to me—I suppose I turned round and looked at them—I certainly did not see Williams—I will not swear that I saw Gavin before I took him—I would not swear that I saw either—there was a little of the chain with the watch; the rest of it is lost entirely—I think Gavin was searched by the policeman—I did not notice the searching; but they showed me a key at the station, and asked me if it was mine—it was not mine—it was a common watch key—when I arose I took hold of one of the men opposite to me—I am not able to swear that he was the man who struck me, or that I had noticed him previously.

Cross-examined by MR. COLLINS for Williams. Q. Where had you been to that morning? A. To Chelsea—I cannot say what I had to drink—I did not keep an account of it.

JAMES HARDMAN (Policeman, F 32). On Wednesday, 11th July, between 3 and 4 o'clock in the morning, I was on duty in Long Acre—about a quarter to 4 o'clock I was coming down Long Acre, and saw three or four men striking at Mr. Donnelly the prosecutor—I saw John Gavin strike him—I am sure of that—he struck him in some part of the face—I saw him strike him several blows—after that I saw the prosecutor fall—after he fell, Gavin, Williams, and two or three others stooped down over him, and I saw Williams snap something from his pocket—Williams then got up, left the others, and walked off towards me, I met him and took him in custody and took him back to the prosecutor who had then got up and had got Gavin, and told me he would give Gavin in charge for knocking him down and taking his watch and chain—I saw this gold watch in the hands of Williams, and took it from him—I am positive that I did so—I took the two to the station, and the prosecutor came along with us—I am sure that I saw the prosecutor struck by Gavin.

Cross-examined by MR. SMITH. Q. How far were you away from the prosecutor at the time? A. I might be about thirty yards; it was not fifty—it was between 3 and 4 o'clock in the morning—it was pretty clear—at the time I first saw them, there were four or five besides the prosecutor—one of the men was taller than the others—the prosecutor had Gavin in his hand, and said he would give him in charge for knocking him down and robbing him.

Cross-examined by MR. COLLINS. Q. How long after you saw the prosecutor did you see Gavin knock him down? A. It was only a second or two, I ran towards him at the time I saw him fall, when I saw him struck—I could see them plainly enough—Williams was walking quietly towards me.

GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months Each.

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-645
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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645. SAMUEL DURRANT (18) , Stealing 1 box and 12 bottles of wine, value 2l. 2s., the property of John Mount, his master.

MR. GENT conducted the Prosecution.

WILLIAM WHILEY . I am a shoemaker, of 146, Royal Mint-street—I also deal in tobacco and cigars—I know the prisoner as a customer—on 12th or 13th July, about 4 o'clock, he ran into my shop when I was just going out, and said, "Will you mind this for a short time and I will call for it?"—it was this box (produced)—he gave me a threepenny bit and took three

Pickwicks—next day, about 10 o'clock, as he did not call, I gave information to the police, who opened a corner of the box, and it was taken away to the station; about a quarter of an hour after which the prisoner came and asked for it and for his three cigars—I told him that Mr. Kelly had been and taken it away—he said I will go down the lane and meet Mr. Kelly, and ask him for it (Mr. Kelly is a policeman)—he came running back, said that he could not see Mr. Kelly, and would go to the station for it—I told him that it was at the Lower-street station—he came back on Saturday night and said that the policeman had got a description of him—he said I have got in trouble about that box, will you deny me?.

Cross-examined by MR. LAWRENCE. Q. Do you make many shoes and boots? A. No; I have got a shop besides, and sell tea, sugar, tobacco, snuff, sweetstuff, and fruit when it is in season and cheap—I do not sell watches or handkerchiefs—I have sold no boots or shoes for the last six months—my wife has a mangle in the back-room—I have never had things left with me before; I beg pardon, my wife says that a box similar to this was left by the prisoner for ten minutes on the Friday before, but I did not know it till my wife went to the station-house—I told the policeman of it—my wife is not here—I had seen the prisoner about five times before for penny cigars—I got fidgety about this box, because I saw that if it was I an order it ought to have been taken home the same day as he had it, and ought not to have been left with me, but he said that it was only for a short time—he came for it about 4 o'clock on Saturday: I am not sure to half an hour—he said, "I have got into trouble about this box, will you deny me?"—I will swear those were the words—I have not made use of those words before to-day—I have been examined before but I did not think of it—I buy my cigars at Forsdike's in Shoreditcb, opposite New Inn-yard—I do not know the number.

MR. GENT. Q. Do you manage to get a living where you are? A. Yes; I pay 52l. a year rent and taxes—I take lodgers and I assist at the mangle—I can swear to the prisoner being the man who brought the box to my shop—it was perfectly daylight at 4 o'clock—I answered all questions that were put to me at the police-court.

JOHN MOUAT . I am a wine-merchant, of 8, Cooper's-row—the prisoner has been in my employ as cellarman three or four works, off and on, but not constantly employed—he had access to stock of this nature—this box is my property; it contains twelve bottles of sparkling Moselle, worth 45s. or 50s.—I saw it safe on the afternoon of 12th August, before I went to dinner at 1 or 2 o'clock—I had lost several cases before, and watched them every day—I know this particular box was safe by this mark; I had another box marked C. W., 32, it is an individual box which I bought as a sample—my house is not 500 yards from Royal Mint-street—the prisoner was absent all that day without leave—I discharged him on Saturday before I recovered the box—I live in the country—I went down on Friday night, returned on Saturday morning, missed the box, and went to the police-station.

Cross-examined. Q. Do you employ a good many men? A. Half a dozen sometimes—I did not consider the prisoner a regular servant—he was employed on particular jobs—on Friday, when I went to dinner, he was left in an outside cellar to wire bottles—when I had finished my dinner, I went out and found that he had gone, and presume he had gone with the box at that time—he was to an extent discharged on Friday night, but he came on Saturday morning—he was not paid on Friday night, but he was early on Saturday—I told him on Friday night that he was of no further

use to me, he was a worthless rascal, and must go out of my place; and he was discharged on Saturday, and I paid him—there may be 10,000 boxes marked 32, but this is the only one I had, and the only box of this description of wine—it is not a common description of wine it is a muscatel flavour, and is very highly esteemed.

COURT. Q. Supposing you were to start off in search, would you find boxes containing bottles like these? A. Plenty; the grower of this wine is to be found in Brandon-court, and he may have 1,000 such boxes, but not marked 32—they would be running numbers.

MR. GENT. Q. From that number are you able to swear that is your box? A. Most positively—I never saw another No. 32, and this is the only box of samples I had; I expected it to be stolen as others had been—I also know it by the name "Humphrey" on it—I asked the shipper how that, name came on it, and he told me that he had shipped some boxes that were not delivered—the grower's name is on the bottle, and had all the names in the world been on the box I could have sworn that it was mine.

ANTHONY WILSON MONGER (Policeman). I communicated with Whiley, and afterwards received this box from the station—I went to the station with Mr. Mouat, and this box was delivered to me.

GEORGE MULLINEUX (City-policeman, 293). I took the prisoner, on the 16th July, in Bell-lane, Whitechapel—I told him I was a detective officer, and charged him with stealing a case and twelve bottles of wine of his master, Mr. Mouat—he said, "I know nothing at all about it"—I said that he must go with me to Mr. Whiley where he left it—he said that he knew nothing at all about it.

GUILTY Confined Twelve Months.

OLD COURT.—Tuesday, August 20th, 1861.


Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-646
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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646. EDWARD JOHN FIELD (30), was indicted for feloniously marrying Mary Ann Purcell, his wife being alive; to which he.

PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Three Months.

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-647
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty; Guilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment; Imprisonment > penal servitude

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647. CHARLES MORLEY (17), EDWARD DAVIS (21), and ROBERT THOMPSON (18) , Burglariously breaking and entering the dwelling-house of Joseph Dedman with intent to steal; Davis having been before convicted of burglary at this court, in October, 1857; to which.

MORLEY and THOMPSON— PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months Each.

DAVIS— PLEADED GUILTY .**— Three Years' Penal Servitude.

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-648
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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648. MARY FRANCIS (29) , Stealing a watch, value 4l., the property of William Evans, from his person.

MR. MOSELEY conducted the Prosecution.

WILLIAM EVANS . I am a grocer's assistant in Doctor's-commons. On 1 28th July last, I was in Ludgate-hill and met the prisoner—she addressed me, and followed me—I turned a little way up the Old Bailey and we stopped talking to each other for about two minutes—she then snapped the chain of my watch, and ran away with it down Ludgate-hill—I followed her, and came up with her—I requested her to return me my watch and she did so—I gave her in charge—I had known nothing of her before.

Cross-examined by MR. BEST. Q. You would not have given her in charge if the police had not happened to come up, would you? A. Yes, I should—this was about 11 o'clock at night—that is not my usual hour for walking in Ludgate-hill—I am not married—we were not having a little amorous play together—she was a hundred yards away from me at first—I missed the watch directly she took it—if it was a lark, it was a very queer one.

MR. MOSELEY. Q. Perhaps you did not consider it a joke? A. No, indeed—I let her go a little way, then felt in my pocket for, my watch and it was gone, and then I followed her.

JESSE SMITH (City-policeman, 243). On 28th July, I was on duty in the Old Bailey—I saw the prisoner run from Prujean-square and the prosecutor after her—I ran after them, and came up with them, the prosecutor had hold of her and accused her of stealing his watch—the prisoner said he had torn the watch from his pocket himself and then said she had stolen it—I took her to the station—she refused her address.

SUSAN MARSHALL . I am a searcher at the station—I searched the prisoner when she was brought there, and found on her a gold chain, five gold rings, two purses of money, a locket, and a broach.

COURT. Q. Was she wearing the things as ornaments? A. Yes; the chain was round her neck, the Tings on her fingers, and the broach in the shawl.


The prisoner was further charged with having been before convicted.

JAMES THORNDIKE . I was formerly a constable in the City-police, and I am now in the employ of the Great Northern Rai' way—I produce a certificate (Read: "Julia Smith, convicted at this Court, December, 1859, of larceny from the person, after a previous conviction.—Confined Eighteen Months")—the prisoner is the person—I was present at the trial.

GUILTY.— Three Years' Penal Servitude.

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-649
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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649. JAMES RILEY (25) , Robbery, with violence, on William Dixon, and stealing 1 bag and 13s., his property.

WILLIAM DIXON . I live at 23, St. James's-terrace, Whitechapel. On Saturday night, 13th July, about 10 o'clock, I was coming home from the City towards St. James's-terrace—I had had a little to drink, but was not tipsy—I had been with a friend during the day—when I came to White-chapel Church a heavy storm of rain came on, and I went into a public-house and called for some refreshment—I pulled out a bag which contained some silver, and took out 6d. to pay for the beer, and put the bag into my pocket again—there were several people in the house—I saw the prisoner there—he spoke to me and asked me to drink—I did drink with him—he seemed a respectable young man—there was another young man in his company—I left 'the house and they followed me across the street, and the prisoner said, "We will see you safe home, father"—I went up Union-street, and at the corner of Mountford-street I bad occasion to do what. nature required, and while I was doing so the prisoner hooked his arm sharply round my neck very tightly, and I was nearly throttled by him—he nearly strangled me, and with his other hand he pulled the bag out of my pocket—his companion hit me a tremendous blow on the head which knocked me down, and there I lay insensible for a short period—they both ran away—as soon as I could I picked myself up again, but I could not catch them—Mountford-street is no thoroughfare, and they turned back again towards Whitechapel—they were gone when I went back—I had never seen either of them before—I saw the prisoner again that same night in the station-house,

a little after 10 o'clock—this happened at 10—it was only a few minutes afterwards—I am quite certain he is the person that robbed me.

GEORGE KING . I am a carpenter and joiner, living at 7, Mountford-street, Whitechapel—I saw the prosecutor in Mountford-street at the time he was making water—the prisoner and another man were with him—the prisoner seized him by the throat with one hand against the wall, and put his other hand into the prosecutor's right-hand trousers' pocket—his companion said to him, "Have you got it?"—he replied, "All right, Jack"—I saw him pull something out of his pocket, but I did not know what it was—the other man struck the prosecutor at the back of the head and knocked him down, and then they both ran up Mountford-street, finding there was no thorough fare they had to run back again—the prosecutor ran after them and fell down—the prisoner said to his companion, "Jack, will you look after father, and I will go and get a cab"—he ran down Union-street as hard as he could and I after him—he caught his foot against the kerb and fell, and I came up with him and gave him into custody—in going along he tried to pass his hand into his right pocket—the constable opened his hand and took from it this bag—at the station he pretended to be drunk.

JAMES HOARE (Policeman, H 178). King called my attention to the prisoner and I took him into custody—on the way to the station he was in the act of taking something out of his pocket—a friend of King's said, "Policeman, he has got something in his hand"—I caught hold of his hand and took from it this bag or purse, containing 13s.

WILLIAM DIXON (re-examined). This is my purse—I can swear to it—it contained 13s. 6d., and I had taken 6d. from it to pay for berr.

Prisoner's Defence. I know nothing about who took his purse, or who put it in my pocket; I never robbed the man; I was drunk.

GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months.

NEW COURT.—Tuesday, August 20th, 1861.


Before Robert Malcolm Kerr, Esq.

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-650
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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650. SARAH MARSHALL (49) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin, having other counterfeit coin in her possession; to which she.

PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Nine Months

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-651
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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651. EDWARD TAYLOR (35) , Feloniously uttering counterfeit coin; to which he

PLEADED GUILTY .**— Six Years Penal Servitude

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-652
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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652. ROBERT PURVIS (18) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin, having other counterfeit coin in his possession; to which he.

PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Eighteen Months

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-653
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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653. THOMAS HAMILTON (25) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin; to which he

PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Eighteen Month

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-654
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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654. JOHN CLARK (46), was indicted for a like offence; to which he.

PLEADED GUILTY .**— Confined Two Years

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-655
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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655. WILLIAM LAWSON (40), was indicted for a like offence; to which he

PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Two Years

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-656
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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656. RICHARD MARTIN (20) , Feloniously having counterfeit coin in his possession, with intent to utter it.

MESSRS. CRAWFORD and LLOYD conducted the Prosecution..

JAMES BRANNAN . I am in the employment of the Mint—I know the prisoner—I produce a certificate of his conviction (Read: "Central Criminal Court, February, 1860—Richard Martin, convicted of unlawfully having counterfeit coin in his possession.—Confined One Year.")—the prisoner is the person. On 9th July, frominformation I received, I went with my son and Inspector Fife, and Sergeant Elliott, to Featherstone-street—I saw the prisoner coming towards me, pushing a costermonger's barrow—I said, "Well, Dick, I have received instructions from the solicitor of the Mint to look after you, you are suspected strongly of dealing largely in counterfeit coin; what have you about you?"—he said, "Nothing, Mr. Brannan"—he was then seized by Sergeant Brannan, and I took this coil of rope off the handle of his barrow, undid it, and found in it nine counterfeit shillings, and two florins, separately wrapped up in paper—I said, "What do you call this?" he said, "Oh, my God, I am done!"—I said, "It appears the imprisonment you have had has not had the desired effect; you might have got a living at your work"—he said, "There is no living to be got at it, Mr. Brannan; I cannot help it"—I said, "You must come back with us to your lodgings, we are going to search them"—he occompanied us to a house in Feather-stone-court, and on entering the room he said, "Mr. Brannan, I will save you the trouble," and went to a cupboard and took out a packet containing three counterfeit florins, which he put into the hands of Sergeant Elliott—we took him to the station, and on the charge being read to him he said, "I am guilty.".

Prisoner. Q. Did not I tell you that it was Ikey who had done it? A. You mentioned Ikey—I asked you who he was, and you said that you would find out and let me know, but I have not ascertained who he is.

JAMES BRANNAN (Police-inspector, G 21). I am a son of the last witness—I went with him and the other officers and took the prisoner—I searched him, and in his trousers' pocket found twenty-seven shillings in good silver, and one counterfeit shilling—I said, "Well, Dick, here is one bad"—he said, "That is all right, you will find all the others good.".

ARTHUR ELLIOTT (Police-sergeant, G 13). On 9th July, I accompanied the other officers to the prisoner's lodgings—as I entered the room he rushed towards the cupboard and said, "I will save you the trouble of searching"—he took from the cupboard a paper containing three counterfeit florins and said, "You will find no more"—he said at the Court, "Last time I had three months, and this time I hope you will send me out of the country as I shall never do any good in this country.".

WILLIAM WEBSTER . I am inspector of coin to Her Majesty's Mint—these coins are counterfeit—three of the florins are from one mould, and two from another—these ten shillings are all from different moulds.

PRISONER'S DEFENCE . I know nothing about the coin which was concealed in the barrow ropes, and the counterfeit coin found at my house was left by a young fellow named Taylor who was in the habit of calling me every morning; I left the barrow down in the court every night; I do not know how the ropes came there; if I had had any bad intention I should have put the coins in my pocket and not left them at home.


19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-657
VerdictGuilty > unknown

Related Material

657. RICHARD MARTIN was again indicted (before a different Jury) for unlawfully having counterfeit coin in his possession, with intent to utter it.

MESSRS. CRAWFORD and COOKE conducted the Prosecution.

The evidence given in the former case was repeated, omitting the certificate of the former conviction. GUILTY .*— Confined Two Years

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-658
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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658. THOMAS SPITTLE (37) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.

MESSRS. CRAWFPRD and COOKE cooducted the Prosecution

ANN GIDDINGS . My husband keeps the White Lion beer-shop at Acton. On Friday, 7th July, the prisoner came between 8 and 9 in the evening for a pint of ale—I served him—he gave me half-a-crown—it came to three pence, and I gave him two shillings and three pennyworth of halfpence in change—he then called for another pint, and gave me a shilling—I bit it a little and bent it, and not having sufficient change, sent my daughter out to change it—the prisoner afterwards bought two biscuits which came to two pence, and gave me a bad shilling—I bent it easily, and told him he might pay me with coppers as I had given him plenty, and that was a bad shilling—I gave it back to him—he said nothing, but gave me twopence and left—I had put the half-crown in a basin where there was no other—I afterwards looked at it, found it was bad, went to the station and gave it to a police man—on the following Sunday night Mansell, the policeman, brought it to me, and I recognized it as I had marked it—this is it (produced).

JOHN MANSELL (Policeman, T 1). On 7th July, I went after the prisoner and overtook him about five or six hundred yards from Mrs. Giddings'—I told him he was given in custody for uttering counterfeit coin—he said, "It is all right, I am a good fellow and work hard for my living"—I took him to the station, searched him, and found on him half-a-crown, a shilling, three sixpences, a 3d. piece and 1 1/2 d. in copper—I received this half-crown (produced) from Mrs. Giddings, and this shilling from Mr. Tickner.

SUSAN GIDDINGS . I received a shilling from my mother on 7th July to get change—I took it to Mrs. Tickner and left it with her, she gave me change.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . These coins are both bad.

Prisoner's Defence. I received my wages on Saturday night, a half sovereign, two half-crowns, and a two-shilling piece—whether I got this bad money in change for the half-sovereign I cannot say.

GUILTY Confined Twelve Months

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-659
VerdictGuilty > unknown

Related Material

659. EMMA BLACKMAN (29) , Unlawfully having counterfeit coin in her possession.

MESSRS. COOKE and CRAWFORD conducted the Prosecution

JAMES BRANNAN . I was formerly a police-inspector, and am now in the service of the Mint—I received information which induced me to go with sergeant Leather to Hazlewood-place, in July last—we found the front door open and the parlour door ajar—I opened it, went in, and saw a man and the prisoner sitting at a table—there was a dog in the room—the prisoner put her left hand in one of the pockets of this apron (produced), which she had on—she had some difficulty in getting her hand out—she took out something which appeared to be a rag—sergeant Leather attempted to seize her, but the dog snapped at him, and he pulled his hand back—the prisoner then moved a board which was temporarily placed on the floor, put her hand down a hole and dropped a rag down—I believe this (produced) to be the rag—the man pushed a table between sergeant Leather and the woman to prevent him taking her, but he took her—I went down into the cellar and on the top of some dust I found this rag containing these three counterfeit florins separately wrapped in paper, precisely under the hole—I re-entered the room, held the rag in my hand, and the prisoner said, "I

will be on my oath I did not throw that down there"—I had said nothing to her, I had not had time—she spoke to the man who had been taken in custody and told him to keep quiet and she would keep him out of it—she said, "That b—Bet sent you there"—she was searched by the female searcher at the station, but nothing was found—the man was discharged by the Magistrate—the dog belongs to the house—I believe it is the prisoner's.

Prisoner. I stood over the hole, but I had nothing in my hand, and put nothing down.

THOMES LEATHER (Police-sergeant, G 6). I accompanied Brannan, and saw the prisoner sitting at a table—she put her hand under her apron and took something from a pocket under it—I tried to seize her, but the dog flew at me and I drew my hand back—I saw her shove a board on one side on the floor which concealed a hole, and throw a rag down the hole—I took her in custody—Brannan left me there and came back with the rag—while he was in the cellar, she said to the man, "Bill, you have got nothing to fear, I will clear you"—when Brannan showed the parcel, the prisoner said, "So help me God, I did not throw them down!".

WILLIAM WEBSTER . These florins are all bad and from one mould—this class of florin is coloured, and would not be passable if not protected by paper, the colouring would rub off.

Prisoner's Defence. I never saw them before now.

GUILTY .*— Confined Two Years

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-660
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

Related Material

660. ELIZABETH NEAL (27) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.

MESSRS. CRAWFORD and HODGSON conducted the prosecution

ELIZSBETH BEECHAM . I am the wife of William H. Beecham, of the King's Arms public-house, Stepney—on the night of 27th July, a person, who I believe to be the prisoner, came for a glass of gin and peppermint, which came to 2 1/2 d.—she gave me a shilling—I gave her the change and put the shilling in the till—there was no other shilling there, only sixpences and fourpenny-pieces—as soon as she was gone, my husband went to the till, took out the shilling, said something, and I put it on a vase on the parlour mantel-piece—on Saturday night, 3d August, the prisoner came; I am quite certain of her—I served her with a glass of gin and peppermint—she gave me a shilling—I gave her the change, and before she had well gone out of the door my husband looked at theshilling, and I said, "That is the young person I think that came last week"—I put it with the other shilling—I went to the door to see if I could see her—there was no other shilling in the till—my husband always takes out the large money on Saturday nights, and only leaves sixpences on account of our taking bad money—on Saturday, 10th August, the prisoner came again—I was watching for her—she asked for a glass of gin and peppermint, and gave me a florin—I passed it over to my husband who was waiting to look at it—he bent it with his teeth in the prisoner's presence, and said, "Do you know this is a bad one?"—I said, "This is not the first one you have given me; "you gave me one last Saturday, and I think the Saturday night before; I have been watching for you the whole evening"—she said she had not been there before—she drank up the gin and peppermint and stood waiting till an officer came—my husband gave her in custody with the shilling and the florin.

Cross-examined by MR. LLOYD. Q. I suppose there are a good many customers on Saturday nights? A. Yes; the prisoner had flowers in her bonnet, and she had them the next time, which made me believe she was

the same person—I am certain she is the person who came the second and third times—my husband is a good judge of money—very few persons ask for a glass of gin and peppermint: people always ask for a half-quartern, and she asked in such a very polite way that I cannot be mistaken in her—we do not often take bad money—I was quite off my guard when she came in the second time—I went out in pursuit of her, but did not see her—my husband said that she was the same person when she came the second time, and that was why he came so quick to look at it—I knew the prisoner directly I saw her—I could pick her out of a thousand people—I described her to the barman in the presence of my husband—the barman is not here.

MR. CRAWFORD. Q. Do I understand you to say that she had flowers in her bonnet the first time? A. Yes; I noticed the little wreath, and it was by that I recognized her—I also knew her by it the third time—I was not, quite sure about the second time, but next time I was.

WILLIAM HENRY BEECHAM . I keep this public-house, and am the husband of the last witness—on 27th July, I saw my wife serve the prisoner with a glass of gin and peppermint—I was just behind my wife—she put the shilling into the till and gave the prisoner change, and she left—I never let shillings remain in the till—I took it out immediately, and discovered it to be bad—the prisoner had on a bonnet with some flowers and a brown shawl—on the following Saturday, about 9 o'clock, the prisoner came again—she said, "Good evening; nice evening," and asked to be served with a glass of gin and peppermint—I am sure it was a glass—she tendered a shilling, which my wife put into the till and gave her the change—I went to the till, took it out, and said, "That is the young woman again," and my wife went to look after her—I am almost certain she had the same bonnet with the flowers in it—the shilling was bad—I gave it to my wife—on Saturday, 10th August, I saw the same person come in, dressed in the same way—she again asked for a glass of gin and peppermint, and tendered a two-shilling piece to my wife, who gave it to me out of her hand—I did not allow her to put it in the till—I said to the prisoner, "This is a bad one, and this is the third time you have been here"—I sent for a policeman and gave her in charge with the florin—it was about half-past 10 o'clock—my wife gave the shillings to the policeman—she kept them in a vase on the mantel-shelf.

Cross-examined. Q. You recognised her immediately, why did not you stop her? A, Do you suppose I could jump over the bar among a lot of people—I recognised her as she came in—my wife did not give me a description of her the first time, but the second time she told me how she was dressed, and I said, "You have no occasion to tell me, I can tell you the same"—she had a bonnet with flowers—the moment she entered the house the third time I sent for a policeman, but my wife was not aware that I had done so—I accused the prisoner of having been there twice before, and she said that I was wrong in the identity—she drank the gin after I had sent for a constable—the house was very nearly empty when she came with the two-shilling piece—the barman went for a policeman, but he heard the conversation at the side door—the prisoner was very polite—she tendered me the first bad money I have had—I have been in business ten years, but only three months at that house—the prisoner went out very quick the second time, before I could call anybody to stop her—she did stop to drink the gin and peppermint.

MR. CRAWFORD. Q. While you went to the till had she time to get

away? A. Yes, two or three times over—I have no doubt at all that she is the woman—I could not bring my barman here—I should have to shut up the house.

EDWARD FRENCH (Policeman, K 250). I received the prisoner in charge from Mr. Beecham, who gave me a two-shilling piece, and Mrs. Beecham gave me two shillings—these (produced) are they—I told the prisoner she was charged with uttering them—she made no reply—she gave her correct address—I received two good coins which were found on her, from the female searcher.

Cross-examined. Q. Did not she say, "I gave the lady the florin?" A. She made no reply when she was charged.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . These coins are bad—the shillings are from different moulds.


19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-661
VerdictNot Guilty > fault; Not Guilty > unknown

Related Material

661. MICHAEL BOWEN (19), and REBECCA GOWER (19) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin, having other counterfeit coin in their possession.

MESSRS. CRAWFORD and COOKE conducted the Prosecution.

GEORGE COPE . I am in the employ of Mr. Lyons, cheesemonger, of Store-street, Bedford-square—on the afternoon of 24th July, the female prisoner came there, and asked for a quarter of a pound of butter, which came to 3 1/2 d.—she was served, and gave a half-crown—I gave her change, and she went away—I put the coin that she gave me in the till—there was no silver at all there—soon after she left, another assistant, named Todd, made some remark to me—the male prisoner then came in, and asked for a quarter of a pound of cheese, which came to 3d.—he paid with a shilling, which I handed, in his presence, to Todd, and saw Todd bend it in his teeth, throw it on the counter, and say, "That's a bad one"—the male prisoner bent it with a weight saying, "It was quite a mistake, I can assure you"—he took it away with him, and paid me with a good shilling—after he left I gave Todd the half—crown I had had from the woman, and he went away from the shop—I was at the station afterwards when the two prisoners were there—the inspector asked the woman to give her address, about a quarter of an hour afterwards I should think—the man then said that she was quite innocent and had nothing to do with it, that he was the guilty party.

Bowen. Q. I believe you put the shilling in the till to see whether you had got change, and when you found you had not you took it out again? A. No; I never passed it from my hand, only to Todd—I never put it in the till at all,.

FRANCIS TODD . I am in the service of Mr. Lyons—on 24th July last, I saw Gower coming out of the shop—I came into the shop as she was going out—the last witness, from something I said to him, showed me a half-crown—I said something to him—I saw Bowen about five minutes after Gower went out—I saw him give Cope a shilling—Cope gave it to me, and asked me to give him two sixpences—I bent the shilling between my teeth, threw it on the counter, and said it was bad—Bowen picked it up, bent it with a weight, said it was quite a mistake, to be sure, and that nobody else should have it—he put it in his pocket, paid with a good shilling, and left the shop—I had seen him in the shop on the Monday before, when I was serving—he asked for two eggs, and gave me a two—shilling piece—I said I had not change, and then he left the shop without being served—he did not take the eggs—I saw what sort of money it was that he put on the counter, for took a half—crown five or six minutes before of a young man—I had change to give, but I said I had not, because I had no one in the shop—I should

ave given him in custody—I said I had no change, because I saw it was a bad coin—I was alone in the shop—when he left the shop on 24th July I followed him—I had received the half-crown from Cope—I overtook him with a young woman, down Keppel-street, which is in a line with Store-street—I followed them, and pointed them out to a policeman, to whom I gave information—I afterwards saw him take Bowen in charge, and I assisted him in doing so, and also in taking the female—I did not go to the station with them—I gave the bad half—crown to the policeman.

Bowen. Q. Did you say anything to the Magistrate about my uttering a bad coin on the Monday? A. The Magistrate would not hear it—it was between 5 and 6 o'clock on the Monday that you were there.

EDWIN CHAPPLE . (Police-sergeant, E 36). I was on duty in Tottenham-court-road on the afternoon of 24th July, and Todd came to me and pointed out the two prisoners—there were two others with them—they were coming down Charlotte-street, the two prisoners in front, and the other two behind—as I closed with the male prisoner I saw something pass from his right hand and tumble down an area in Charlotte-street—I looked down the area, and saw this half-crown (produced) lying in a piece of paper, partly exposed—a woman, at my request, went down the area, picked it up, and gave it to me through the bars—I also produce another half-crown given me by Todd—at the station the inspector required the female's address, and the man said it was no use asking her, that she was perfectly innocent, he was guilty—on the man I found Is. 6d., in silver, and 3d. in copper, good money.

Cross-examined by MR. ATKINSON. Q. Did she give you her address?A Yes; but it was false.

MR. COOKE. Q. Did you find anything of her at the address she gave you? A. No; she had lived there once, but had left there a long time.

MR. ATKINSON. Q. Did she send you to her brother's? A. She sent me to a person that she used to lodge with—her brother was not lodging there that I am aware of.

Bowen, I said if there was a guilty party I was the one; I did not say that I was guilty.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . These half-crowns are bad.

Bowen's Defence. The two persons that were with me asked me to get some butter for them, and I asked this woman to get it, and when she came out I walked down the street with them, and then they said, "Will you run back and get me a bit of cheese?" They gave me a shilling, and I did so, and the person at the shop told me it was bad, and when I came out I could not find them, but afterwards I did, and told them it was a bad shilling they had given me, and they said, "Oh! never mind," and they asked me to hold something, and I took it and put it in my pocket; it was a half-crown; and a policeman came up soon afterwards—he saw those two men running away.

(MR. COOKE stated that he would withdraw the charge against Gower.).



19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-662
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

Related Material

662. ELLEN BARRETT (24) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.

MESSRS. COOKE and CRAWFORD conducted lie Prosecution.

ELISHA BARNES . I keep a chandler's shop in Myddleton-street, Clerkenwell—on Thursday-evening, 11th July, I gave the prisoner in custody—she had been there as near as I recollect about a month before—I did not notice what she purchased then—she gave me a sixpence—after she had gone on that occasion she came back again in about an hour after, had an egg which was

three farthings, and paid me with a sixpence—I gave her change, and she left with the egg and the change—I kept the sixpence in my hand; it was not a minute before I examined it, I should think; and I said it was just like the one I had taken before—I found that it was a bad one, and kept it by itself—I gave it to the constable on 11th July, when I took the other bad one—the prisoner came again on that day, in the evening, and wanted articles to the value of 6 1/4 d.—I knew her again—she tendered a crown; I saw it was bad directly she put it down—I sent my son for a constable, and gave her into custody with the bad sixpence—I gave the crown to my son, and he gave it to the constable.

Prisoner. Q. Why did not you examine the second sixpence before you gave me change, and tell me it was the same sort as I had given you just before? A. I thought you would come again, perhaps, and then I would catch you—I did not examine the first one.

JOHN MARSH (Policeman, G 249). I received this crown and sixpence from Barnes on 11th July—I took the prisoner in custody—I asked her address, and she said, "48, Leather-lane"—I made inquiries about her there—she was not known there at all.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . This is a bad crown; the other coin is a medal, it is not a sixpence at all—one side is filed down.


19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-663
VerdictGuilty > unknown

Related Material

663. MARY ANN COOPER (26), was indicted for a like offence.

MESSRS. COOKE and CRAWFORD conducted the Prosecution.

WILLIAM GIBBS . I keep a beer shop at Enfield Wash—the prisoner came on 17th July, about half-past 10, for two pennyworth of bread and cheese, and gave me a half-crown—I gave her 2s. 4d. change, and she left—Iput the half-crown in my pocket—there was no other there—there were several people in the shop, and after they left, I looked at it and found it was bad—I put went out, but could not see her—I informed a policeman, marked the coin, and gave it to him—my place is 200 or 300 yards from Mrs. Young's.

ISABELLA YOUNG . My husband keeps a beer shop at Enfield Wash—on 17th July, shortly after 10 at night, the prisoner came with a jug for a pint of beer—I served her—she gave me a two—shilling piece—I gave her 1s. 10d. and put the florin in the till where there was only large coins—in conesquence of what was said to me I marked it, and gave it to Sergeant Bird.

WILLIAM MARTIN CREED . I keep the Bell, Enfield Highway, 300 or 400 yards from Mr. Gibbs' and not 100 yards from Mrs. Young's, which is between Gibbs' house and mine—on 17th August, getting on for 11 at night, the prisoner came and asked my wife for a pint of beer, who brought me a half-crown, which I bent—the prisoner had a brown jug—I gave her the half-crown, and she left the jug on the bar, went away with the bad half-crown, came back, and paid 2d. for the beer.

COURT. Q. Did you know her? A. No—there is no crockery shop where she might have bought the jug, within a quarter of a mile.

WILLIAM BIRD (Police-sergeant, N 5). On 18th July, about quarter to 11 o'clock, I was called by the pot boy to the Rose and Crown, which is about a quarter of a mile from the Bell—I followed to the Two Brewers, which is full a mile—I saw the prisoner coming out of the Two Brewers, and took her—she had no jug—she does not belong to that neighbourhood—I produce half a crown which I got from Mr. Gibbs, and a florin from Mrs. Young—the prisoner had on her a good sixpence, and 3d. in copper.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . This is a bad half-crown and florin.

Prisoner's Defence. I did not go into either of the shops.

GUILTY .— Confined Nine Months.

OLD COURT.—Wednesday, August 21st, and Thursday, August 22d, 1861.


Before Mr. Justice Hill.

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-664
VerdictNot Guilty > no evidence

Related Material

664. RICHARD AUSTWICK WESTBROOK (48) , was charged upon the coroner's inquisition only, with feloniously killing and slaying Jane Janet Cathrey.

MR. ORRIDGE, for the prosecution, offered no evidence, the Grand Jury having thrown out the bill.


19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-665
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

Related Material

665. JAMES ROE (42) , Feloniously forging and uttering a warrant and order for the payment of 6,000l. with intent to defraud.

MESSRS. GIFFARD and POLAND conducted the Prosecution.

CHARLES FODEN . I am clerk to Mr. Parry, the district registrar of the Court of Probate, at Chester—I produce the original will of Edward Roe, of Sutton, near Macclesfield, dated 25th December, 1858, and a codicil, dated 30th December, 1858—the attesting witnesses to those documents are Peter Wads worth, and Joseph Chapman. (The will was put in and taken as read: it directed the payment, by the executors, of all debts, funeral, and testamentary charges, and also directed them to take up and pay all or any unpaid checks, It contained a variety of bequests; amongst others, one of 500l. to the prisoner and appointed George Hartwell Roe, and John Orme Roe, residuary legatees. By the codicil, the trust property was vested in the executors, John Plant Shufflebotham, George Hartwell Roe, and James Wardle. Both the will and codicil were attested by Joseph Chapman and Peter Wadsworth.).

EDWARD BEDELL . I am clerk to Mr. Coleman of the principal registry of her Majesty's Court of Probate, in London—I produce the caveat book—a caveat was entered on 7th January, at the principal registry, against grant of probate of the goods of Edward Roe, late of Sutton, in the county of Chester, by Prichard and Sons, proctors; and the caveat is signed by G. H. Rogers—it does not appear on the face of the caveat—book to have been entered on behalf of Lord Denman, Thomas Moore, and James Roe—it does not appear on whose behalf the caveat was entered—I produce the court—book, showing the proceedings of the court in the case of Roe v. Sale—I believe it was a proceeding to dispute the will of Edward Roe—on 2d, May, judgment was given in favour of Roe, and Sale was condemned in costs.

WILLIAM HENRY LORDING . I am a clerk in the Record and Writ clerks offices of the Court of Chancery—I produce a bill filed by the Rev. James Roe, plaintiff, against George Hartwell Roe, defendant, on 1st October, 1860; also an answer of the defendant in the suit George Hartwell Roe, filed in December, 1860—I also produce an envelope and a paper with some writing upon it—they were deposited in the Court of Chancery under an order of the court, dated 26th January, 1861—I have not got the order—Letter read:—"Macclesfield, December 30th, 1848.—To the Rev. James Roe—Dear James, I am being made to do what I do not want; if I am gone when you come, use this money for your family. Yours very sincerely, E. Roe." Cheque read:—"Messrs. Brocklehurst and Co., bankers, pay Rev. James

Roe or order, the sum of 6,000l.—E. Roe." The envelope was directed, "Rev. James Roe, Coomb Hay, near Bath.".

(The bill in Chancery, in the cause of Sale v. Roe, was here put in and read. Filed 1st October, 1860.) I have the original order dismissing that bill for the want of prosecution (this was dated 15th April, 1861, and directed costs to be paid by the plaintiff in the suit).

PETER WADSWORTH . I live at Sutton, near Macclesfield—I am assistant overseer and collector of poorrates for the parish of Sutton—I knew the deceased, Edward Roe, for thirteen or fourteen years before his death—I attested the will and codicil produced—the codicil was executed on 30th December, 1858—I saw the testator execute it—he was very feeble that day—his hand was very much cramped—when I first went in I read the codicil over to him, then he took it up in his hands, and read it himself, after wiping, his spectacles, and his hand was in this position (describing it)—he had to put his fingers so, to straighten it—he put his right band into his left, and he put his name four or five times on a pieoe of blank paper before he, attached it to the codicil—I saw the letters and cheque at Bow-street—these, are them—in my judgment this is not the writing of the testator, Edward Roe—he could not write a hand like that at the date it purports to be written—at the time I saw the codicil executed it was getting near 4 o'clock in the afternoon—the letter and cheque may bear a little resemblance to the testator's writing two or three years before his decease, but not for a long time before—he died on the 1st January, the next day but one, early in the morning—he was then living at Sutton, near Macclesfield—it is an adjoining township to Macclesfield, and within the Parliamentary borough.

Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE (with MR. MORGAN LLOYD). Q. Were you there on the 24th, the day before the will was signed? A. Yes; not the will; the codicil—that was on the 30th—the will was not signed on the Christmas-day, but on Sunday the 26th—I heard of Mr. May, an attorney, being taken to him—I cannot speak to the date when Mr. John Orme Roe returned from Holland—I first saw him there on Christmas-day, in the morning—Mr. May, Mr. John Orme Roe's attorney, was not there on that date to my knowledge—I do not know anything of it—the testator was feeble on that day, but perfectly sound in mind; quite fit to make a will—I have always said that—I was one of the witnesses called at Chester to prove that he was in a fit state—I made the will, at my own house—no one but myself was present when I made it—Mr. Edward Roe, deceased, gave me directions to make it, and no one else—I had a copy to make it from—that was an old will; a former will—he sent his man Turner for me—I saw Mr. John Orme Roe at that time—he did not see the will to my knowledge; not while it was in my possession—Mr. Hartwell Roe was not there—I did not see him until after the decease; the day of the inquest, I should say—this cheque and letter are a little like the writing of "Mr. Edward Roe two or three years before his death—if it had been given to me dated two years before, I should have doubted it being his writing upon the first glance of it—I should have thought it was his, if I had not known the state of health in which he was—the envelope is worse, in my opinion, than the cheque and letter—I mean it is uot such a good imitation; not nearly so like—I did not go in to see him every day—he frequently knocked for me at the window as I was passing on my business—he frequently rapped for me to come in, and I went in—I had nothing to do but to open the door, and I was in his room—his room did uot open into the road; there was a lobby or passage that you went along, perhaps three yards from the front door—I generally went in the back way;

the front door was often fast—if it was not, you opened the gate first, then went the three yards of lobby, and then his door was on the right-hand side, on the ground floor—the window that he tapped at overlooked the road—there is a footpath there on that side of the road—the back way into the house was at the gable end—I had to go through the yard-door to get to the back—door, and then through the kitchen into the lobby I have spoken of—there was a door between the lobby and the kitchen, which cut off his room from the kitchen—on Wednesday, the 29th, the day before the codicil was executed, I had a conversation with John Orme Roe, and I copied a draft that he brought to me—having copied it, I went to the old man on the 30th—I do not think he was looking much better on that day—I do not know that he was much better—he questioned me as to his health—I was examined on the former occasion to establish the validity of the will—I cannot say whether I stated on that occasion that the testator looked much better on that day—it is a long while ago—I have never looked at the evidence—I might have said so; I won't dispute it—I told him the business I had come on—I first read the codicil to him; he then took it up and read it himself, and said, "That will do"—I cannot say whether he read it without his spectacles—I remember well enough his taking it up and saying, "That will do," but I cannot remember whether he had his spectacles or not—he asked Turner to get the ink for him, and he tried the pen several times—he then said that he must attend to his books, for he had neglected them sadly of late—they were books of his own business.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. Do you know at all whether the window, at which he used to tap for you, opened? A. I never saw it opened—he ordinarily wrote his name in full, "Edward Roe"—I never saw him write "E. Roe."

JOSEPH CHAPMAN . I live at Sutton, near Macclesfield—I keep a shop there—I knew the deceased, Edward Roe, for seventeen years—I am one of the attesting witnesses to this will and codicil—both these signatures are my writing—I remember the day when the codicil was executed, the 30th December—Mr. Roe was pretty well in his health that day—I remember his signing the codicil—at that time his hands were cramped in this way (contracted)—he had some difficulty in signing his name—he signed a piece of paper before he began, and tried his pen on it—I know his handwriting very well—I have seen it many and many a time—T believe this letter and cheque are not his writing, nor the envelope—he could not write in that way; not so well—he used generally to sign his name, Edward Roe—that was his regular way.

Cross-examined. Q. Do you mean he always signed Edward in full? A. Yes, in full—I used to help him gather in the taxes, and he signed his name Edward Roe on the receipts—I did not often see his letters—his mind was quite strong and clear up to the time of his death—he was quite sensible—I thought he was better that day than he had been before—I thought he was a deal better—I do not believe this to be his handwriting, because he could not write such a hand—his hand was not equal to writing such a hand as that—if I had not known the date, I should have said it was his writing; but I know he could not write so on that day—I was present when Mr. May, the attorney came; I think it was the day before Christmas—he brought a will with him—the old man refused to sign it—he got into a passion about it—Mr. May used to do business for him sometimes—Mr. Parrott was his attorney—Mr. May was the attorney employed by John Orme Roe—that will was not taken away by Mr. May; it was left—I do not know where it is now—I read it—I cannot recollect whether there was any direction in it about paying the cheques.

JOHN TURNER . I live near Macclesfield—I acted as servant to Mr. Edward Roe for about three years before his death—I had known him about thirty years—he died on 1st January, 1859—I was in attendance on him for the three weeks or fortnight preceding his death—during that period he was confined to one room—I used to attend on him both day and night for that fortnight; all day and night—there was a casement at the room in which he was, which was fastened—it was fast when I went there, and had been for years—a person named Elizabeth Mycock was also in attendance on him—she is seventy-five years of age—she has fractured her thigh, and is not able to be here—I remember the day when the codicil was executed—I have seen the letter which has been produced (looking at it)—Mr. Roe was not able to write such a letter as that on that day—I was in attendance on him the whole of that day—I never left the house on that day, without it was for a few minutes to relieve nature—I did not hear of any such letter being written that day—no person could have gone into his room and out again with such a letter, without my seeing them—he used to show me all letters that he wrote—he always wrote a copy before he wrote the letter—he used to write upon small note paper, not with lines upon it; he used to rule them himself.

Cross-examined. Q. I thought he collected taxes, and had entries to make in books, and all that sort of thing? A. That was before my time—he had been a grocer—he kept his own books up to the time of his death—I can write a little—I think I can write so as persons can read it—his mind was clear and strong up to the time of his death—on the day the codicil was signed, the 30th, he was much better in his breathing, and he could talk better—I was examined at Chester—I always kept in his room—I did not take my meals in bis room—I do not know that I did regularly—I might do so sometimes—I cannot say that I took all my meals in his room—I generally took them in the kitchen, and sometimes in his room—I was in the habit of doing so when he was so ill—I was never in bed for a fort-night—I slept on a chair in his room a little at night—I did not sleep much for that fortnight—in the daytime the housekeeper looked a little after him—that was at the beginning part of his illness—when she attended on him in his room I was in the kitchen, and if he wanted me she called me—I have never stated that the day before his death I was away for about three hours—that is not so—on the 26th I was away—I was examined at Macclesfield—I was not absent for three hours on the 30th or 31st—I was not absent at all unless I went into the garden, two or three minutes, that would be all—the garden was at the back of the house—it joins up to the house—you go out from the kitchen into the garden—the door between the kitchen and the lobby was generally kept open—it was not always open—it might be shut sometimes when I was in with him—it was made so as to swing to and keep shut, but we generally had a weight at the bottom to keep it open—he did not often tap at the window for persons to come in when they were passing—I cannot say that he never did so, but not often—I have not seen him do so within a week of his death—he could not walk for a week before his death, and therefore could not tap at the window—he could not walk without help—I mean to swear that he did not tap at the window during the last week of his life for persons to come in—he could not walk to the window without help—Mr. Wadsworth was not there the day before the will was executed—I did not see him during that week—I saw Mr. Peter Wadsworth—there are two Mr. Wadsworths—Mr. Peter Wadsworth was there on 30th December—I believe he was there the day before the will was signed—I was not there when he came in—I believe I

was not in the house when he came—I did not see him—I saw him on the 30th in the room with my master—I did not hear of Mr. Roe writing a letter a day or two before his death—I know Mr. William Smith, who lives at Brook-street, Macclesfield—I told him, I believe, in December, 'that I had heard that the Rev. James Roe had produced a letter purporting to be signed by my late master two days before his death, containing a cheque for 6,000l.—I did not tell him that my master did write such a letter, but that I did not know what became of it—I swear that positively—I did not say that my master did write a letter a day or two before his death—I said that the 30th of December wasoneofhisbestdays—itwas—Mr. Smith did not say to me, "Do you know anything about the letter that was written by Mr. Roe a few days before he died?" nor did I say, "Yes; it was one of his best days; he did write a letter, and I do not know what has become of it"—all I said was that it was one of his best days.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. What was it you did say to this gentleman? A. He asked me whether he had written such a letter containing a cheque for 6,000l., and I said, "No; nothing of the kind"—I believe that was all that passed between us with respect to my late master.

THOMAS PARROTT . I am a solicitor, practising at Macclesfield—I am also town clerk there—I knew Mr. Edward Roe very well—I knew him for forty years and upwards—I am acquainted with his handwriting—I do not believe this letter, cheque, and envelope, to be in his handwriting.

Cross-examined. Q. Were you solicitor to the late Mr. Roe? A. Occasionally; at other times Mr. Brocklehurst; he is a banker as well—I saw these documents in Mr. Johnson's possession at Macclesfield; he brought them to me—I think that was about September or October—other gentlemen were present—it was at the execution of the commission for perpetuating testimony, under the order of the Court of Chancery—that was not the only occasion upon which the documents were shown to me; I saw them on the following day at my office—I did not on that occasion tell Mr. Johnson that I was satisfied it was the handwriting of Edward Roe; I did not tell him I believed it to be; quite the contrary—if there had been a date to the document, and I had not known anything of his illness, I should not then have believed it to be his writing—I was not asked to go up to Mr. Johnson's to see it before the taking of the depositions at Macclesfield—I do not know that a person named Riley assisted Mr. Roe in making up his accounts.

Q. Did you often visit him? A. On my road home I had to pass his house, and we chatted very frequently; I did not go in, he would walk along with me on the way—that was for several years before his death—I was not examined before the commission at Macclesfield—this is the first time I have been examined upon the matter; I was not at the police-court—it was a couple of years or more before his death that he used to walk with me—during the latter part of the time I did pot go into his house at all—I do not think this is much like his writing two years ago; there is some resemblance, but I hardly think I should have been taken in by it for a moment—I did not often receive letters from him; I have received some, not latterly—I have seen him write; the last time was in 1857—I had frequently seen him write up to that time—I have been acting as solicitor to Mr. John Orme Roe in this matter, in the Court of Chancery and the Court of Probate; he was acting in connexion with Mr. Hartwell Roe for the purpose of establishing the will—I never saw the previous will of 1857, it was not produced to me by my client, John Orme Roe—I never saw any previous will—there was a bill filed in chancery and an answer put in, and

subsequently the suit was dismissed—I apprehend that the defendant in that suit might have had an order to examine the plaintiff—I am not aware that that step was taken—I heard of the criminal proceedings, immediately after the date of the answer; I heard it from Mr. Hartwell Roe.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. At that period of the suit would the proceedings have been ripe for hearing? A. I hardly think they would—the proceedings at Macclesfield was for the purpose of perpetuating the testimony of aged witnesses.

SAFFERY WILLIAM JOHNSON . I am a member of the firm of Johnson and Coote, of Gray's Inn-square, and also of Doctors' Commons—I know the prisoner; he was a client of ours in respect of certain proceedings in the Court of Probate, of Sale v. Roe, and also in the Court of Chancery, of Roe v. Roe—on 19th June I wrote this letter, to Messrs. Brocklehurst and Bagshaw, by the instruction of the prisoner—(Read: "June 19th, 1860—Gentlemen,—Re Edward Roe, deceased—We think it right to inform you that we have to-day had a long interview with our client, the Rev. James Roe, with reference to a letter which has been discovered, within the last few days, written by the deceased Edward Roe, dated 30th December, 1858, in which he complains of the coercion exercised towards him, and forwarding him a cheque. We intend immediately to consult counsel as to the course which should be pursued by Mr. James Roe, which we imagine will be "that we should at once apply to the Court for a new trial we inform you of this that the executors may not proceed to distribute the estate until the questions raised by this letter have been disposed of—We are, gentlemen, your very obedient servants, Johnson and Coote.")—I afterwards wrote another letter of September 5th—it is my writing—(Read: September 5th, 1 860—Gentlemen,—Re Edward Roe, deceased—We think it right to inform you that, since writing our letter to you of the 19th June last, we have satisfied ourselves of the authenticity of the letter of the 30th December, 1858, which we shall be able to prove unquestionably to be in Mr. Edward Roe's handwriting, and we shall now proceed to take such steps as counsel may advise. Though our letter to you of the 19th June last, was, we imagine, quite sufficient to put the executor on his guard, and to caution him against distributing the estate, pending the questions raised by Mr. Edward Roe's letter, still we think it right to give you this further notice, as, notwithstanding our letter, the executor is, we are informed, proceeding in the distribution of the estate.—We are, gentlemen, yours faithfully, Johnson and Coote.")—I received the letter and envelope produced from the prisoner on 13th August, 1860—I retained them in my possession until they were deposited in the Court of Chancery, under an order of Vice—Chancellor Wood, with the exception of four or five days, when I handed them to my partner, who took them into the country—I received them back again from him—on Saturday, 26th January last, I was at my office in Doctors Commons, in an inner room with the prisoner—I opened the door and requested Mr. Surrey to come in—after he came in, the prisoner, looking at him, said, "Who are you?"—I answered for Mr. Surrey by saying, "I think he is the son of Mr. Surrey, of Fleet-lane;" and I said to Mr. Surrey, "Is that (pointing to the prisoner) the gentleman for whom your father made the dies?"—he said, "Yes, he is"—the prisoner seemed confounded with the accusation that seemed to be implied (I had had some conversation with him before Mr. Surrey entered the room)—he seemed confounded by the accusation; he put his hand to his head and stood aghast, and quite thunderstruck at the charge—he left our office a few minutes afterwards—

these document were deposited in the Court of Chancery under an order of very nearly that date—on the morning of that day a summons was attended, which I attended myself before the chief clerk of the Vice-Chancellor—that was to deposit the documents in the hands of the Court of Chancery—that summons was taken out by the defendant's agents, Messrs. Elsdale and Byrne.

Cross-examined. Q. Was the order made to deposit the documents before Mr. Surrey came in? A. Yes, before I saw Mr. Surrey—I did not communicate to the prisoner that the summons was taken out, or that there was an application to deposit the documents—the summons was returnable on my return to London, which was that same day—I did not communicate to the prisoner, when I saw him in my office, that there was such an application and order; I had no opportunity of doing so—I told him before Mr. Surrey came in that the order had been made to deposit the documents—I do not know exactly the day when the summons was made; it was served before my return from Macclesfield—my partner, Mr. Coote, has not attended a great deal more to this matter than myself; he attended to the trial at Chester more than myself, but I have attended all the Chancery proceedings—it was on the 29th or 30th of August that I handed these documents over to Mr. Coote for four or five days—that was in order that he might make inquiries at Macclesfield and elsewhere, about the genuineness of the documents—Mr. Coote is in London; he is not in court; I think he is at Doctors' Commons—he is accessible at any moment—I gave him the documents, with instructions to ascertain their genuineness—he has told me that he did make inquiries, and upon his report of those inquiries I acted in the suit—it was after that report from him that I wrote the letter to Messrs. Brocklehurst, which has been read, stating that I had satisfied myself of the authenticity of the documents—after that I proceeded in the suit, filed the bill, and went to considerable expense—those expenses have not been paid—I did not undertake to carry on the suit at my own risk; merely advanced money on account—we are not out of pocket to a very large amount; only the amount expended in this suit; not in the suit of Sale v. Roe; those have been paid—I should not have undertaken the suit if I had thought there was any doubt about it—Mr. Coote conducted the trial which took place at Chester, and saw the witnesses—Mr. and Mrs. Loney were both witnesses on that trial—I know that Mr. Coote went to Macclesfield and saw Mr. and Mrs. Loney—I know also that he saw Mrs. Thompson; she was formerly a Miss Gee; a relation of the family—he also saw the postmistress at Macclesfield, and put the envelope and stamps before her; at least, so he told me—I also know that he went to Bath, and saw the Bath postmaster, and put the envelope and stamps before him—I think he also saw Mr. Hollway, the gentleman mentioned in the bill, from whom the parcel was said to have come—after receiving the result of this information from Mr. Coote, I wrote to Messrs. Brocklehurst—I also wrote to Mr. Roe, on 5th September—being satisfied by Mr. Coote's inquiries I then took proceedings—the 24th January was the first day that any commn—nication was made to me by the other side about—Mr. Surrey; the letter and cheque was not submitted to me before 13th August—I suppose it was to Mr. Coote—I only know that, from what Mr. Cooteh as said—Mr. Coote did not submit the original letter to me—he gave me some information upon which the letter of 19th June was written—the prisoner came to town on the 19th, and on that day he wrote out a copy of the letter from his own head, not having the letter with him—at the time I wrote the

letter of 19th June I had not seen the original letter or cheque—I had seen a copy which the prisoner gave me—I have seen the prisoner in the presence of Mr. Coote—we were together on 19th June—the original letter was placed before Mr. Coote some time before that—I am not sure of the day—I think it was on the 4th of June—I only speak from what Mr. Coote told me—it was certainly some time before the 19th—I do not think there is any call-book at Doctors' Commons—Mr. Coote has a journal of his own in which be makes entries, and I enter in my own journal what I do—we do not eater jointly—there is no unfriendliness between myself and Mr. Coote—I have seen the prisoner with Mr. Coote—I first saw him with him on 19th June, the day I wrote this letter I met the prisoner at Doctors' Commons, at the request of Mr. Coote—Mr. Coote told me on that occasion that he had seen the original document; that Mr. Roe had been to town and shown him the original letter and envelope—I do not remember his saying that he had looked at the date of the stamp on the envelope—I do not recollect his telling me whether he did or not—I do not think Mr. Coote has been subpoenaed on the part of the prosecution—he was not examined at the police-court—I communicated to the other side that Mr. Coote had made inquiries about the genuineness of these documents—while the documents were in my hands persons called on behalf of Mr. Hartwell Roe to see them several times—Mr. Hartwell Roe himself called on 3d November—I do not think any one called before that—I received an answer to my letter of 19th June from Messrs. Brocklehurst—when I wrote the letter of 5th September, no one called to see the documents and inquire about them—the 3d of November was the first time that any one came to see them—on that day Mr. Hartwell Roe, and Mr. Collis, an attorney, acting for him, called—they called twice on the 3d, and remained for a long time on both occasions—I showed them the letter, cheque, and envelope, and they examined them very carefully; they used a lens, or microscope—I am not sure whether that was on the first occasion, but they did afterwards, certainly—they used very powerful lenses, I am not sure about the microscope—on 5th Mr. Collis called alone, and on 6th Mr. Collis and Mr. Hartwell Roe both called again—on 8th I endeavoured to obtain from Messrs. Brocklehurst some cheques and papers so that I might compare them—I did not receive them—they attended with them—I did not have the custody of them—they brought them so that they might be compared—they brought cheques of the testators; not letters—I also procured some letters through the prisoner—Mr. Loney supplied Mr. Coote with them, and Mr. Coote gave them over to me—I think that was before he went to Macclesfield—I asked him to let me see some of the documents that I might compare them—Mr. Loney did not bring any to me—he brought them to Mr. Coote—they were writings containing accounts; not strictly letters, any of them—I think I have them here—it was such writing of the testator as he was able to furnish us with.

Q. Did you yourself compare those documents, and also the documents that Mr. Brocklehurst submitted to you with these documents that are now produced? A. They were compared at the time by experts—I looked at them—I compared those I received from Mr. Coote, and also those I received from Messrs. Brocklehurst—the result of that comparison in my own mind was that I was satisfied there appeared to be a great similarity in the writing, so strong that I had no doubt they were the same—the suit was commenced before that, and we went on with it—it was not commenced before the documents ere received by Mr. Coote from Mr. Loney—I compared

those documents with the cheque and envelope, and was satisfied with the comparison, and subsequently to that instituted the suit—I then compared them with the cheque received from Messrs. Brocklehurst, and was satisfied then—on 15th I produced the letter, cheque, and envelope to two experts, Mr. Netherclift and Mr. Adlard—Mr. Hartwell Roe was with them, and Mr. Collis also—they brought the experts with them—they are men of great celebrity—they all four examined them for more than an hour—on 17th Mr. Cooke, another expert, compared the documents with the cheques I had obtained from Mr. Brocklehurst—Mr. Cooke was called in by us for our own protection—I think we did it as a proper precaution—we thought it a right step to take—Mr. Cooke is a gentleman of eminence as an expert—on 19th I also called in Mr. Lane—he bad made an appointment to come on 17th, but did not come till the 19th—he examined them carefully on 19th, with magnifying glasses, and so on—I do not think he measured them with a compass—I think Mr. Hartwell Roe did so—I can hardly say; so much has been done—on 17th Mr. Adlard, Mr. Hartwell Roe, and Mr. Collis again called to see them, and again examined them for a considerable time—on 28th Mr. Brocklehurst called with Mr. Hartwell Roe and Mr. Collis, and they again examined them very carefully—on 3d December Mr. Adlard, Mr. Collis, and Mr. Hartwell Roe again called and saw them, and they then examined them for a considerable time—on 15th a man named Burgess and Mr. Stainbridge called; they did not see them on that day, but they did on the 18th—they were sent by Messrs. Brocklehurst—I do not know what Burgess is—I believe he has been a policeman—Stainbridge is a clerk in the General Post Office—he came to look at the post office stamps—they inspected them carefully—the experts, introduced by Mr. Hartwell Roe, never expressed any opinion at all in my presence—having been present at all these examinations I was still satisfied and still continued the suit—on 7th January I received a letter from Messrs. Brocklehurst, asking me to give a photograph copy, and I said they could have it if they liked—I was first told anything about Mr. Surrey on 24th January; that was by Mr. Parrott—I believe he is the attorney for John Orme Roe—up to that time I had not any reason whatever to doubt the genuineness of these documents—there were many insinuations made during my stay at Macclesfield, but no positive statement was made to me before the 24th—I discontinued the suit in consequence of what Mr. Surrey stated.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. When did you abandon all proceedings in the suit? A. I gave notice to Mr. Roe, on my interview on the 26th, that we should not continue any farther to act in the suit, and he must appoint some one else—I did not take any further steps in it, except so far as I was required to take for the purpose of depositing the documents—the prisoner did not himself come to me to demand the documents, but in consequence of the order, I deposited them in the Court of Chancery—I never saw the testator, and never saw him write—I had formed no opinion whatever of his handwriting except from comparison of documents; they appeared to me to be precisely alike—if I had known that the envelope was a forged one, probably I should have formed a different judgment as to the likeness of the handwriting—the statement of Mr. Surrey certainly influenced me in my conduct afterwards—I am not aware that Mr. Coote has been subpoenaed on behalf of the prisoner—I first heard of the name of Mr. Hollway I think, on 19th June—if his name is not mentioned in the bill, that was the act of the counsel who drew it, not mine, I gave the name to the equity draftsman—I do not know of the name being communicated to the defendants in the suit—they

attended at my office several times before the answer was put in, and during that time certainly the name of Hollway was frequently mentioned to Mr. Collis, Messrs. Brocklehurst's clerk.

ABRAHAM SURREY . I am a relief engraver, of 15, Fleet-lane, City—I am acquainted with a gentleman named Perraton, and have several times executed orders for him—he came to me in the course of the year 1860 with this paper, marked A 1—I had some conversation with him, and he also gave me this other paper, marked B 2—in consequence of receiving those papers and the directions he gave me, I made two stamps—that was somewhere about 25th June; I cannot exactly say the day—Mr. Perraton also left with me these two other papers (produced)—they were attached to the others at the time I had them—they were in two parcels, two papers in each—they were both received at one time—I executed them—one was a stamp with four straight lines in it—since this matter has been investigated, I have made two fac-similes for the purpose of explaining my evidence—Mr. Humphreys has them—these (produced) are them, with this exception, I made a circular stamp for letters separately—I did not know what letters were wanted—this fac-simile has been set up since the occurrence has transpired—the type was not arranged when I supplied it, because I did not know how the prisoner wanted to arrange it—I made all the types that are in these two stamps—I made them circular stamps with movable letters, so that they might be put into any words which the letters would stamp—I made the letters that are on these pieces of paper—I made a circular stamp with ten letters in the first instance, and a space with power to admit of one letter; ditto for four letters, and ditto for two—I afterwards received back the stamp to admit of ten letters, and altered it so as to receive twelve—I took the stamps with the letters to Mr. Perraton, I think on 29th July, having made a few more movable types—the letters which I made would form, if so disposed, the word Macclesfield and the word Bath—the initial letters D and J, and the figures 1 5 9 2—on 8th August, I saw the prisoner at my shop, 15, Fleet-lane, between 9 and 10 o'clock in the morning—he said he was sent by Mr. Perraton, recommended to me as the maker of the stamps, and he wanted certain alterations, and asked me if I would devote a few hours with him—I agreed to do so—he brought with him the two stamps that I had done in the first place for Mr. Perraton with the fittings, and he said, "Consider yourself as working for me now, and not for Mr. Perraton"—he wanted certain technical alterations which did not seem to correspond exactly with the marks that he wanted them to correspond with, and I altered them under his own eye—I had to alter each letter separately to correspond with letters that he had with him marked in a book—it was a memorandum book with a black cover—he looked at each letter and the impressions, and got me to alter them separately—he took the impressions in my shop—I did not see the marks in the book; but he took, impressions, and then looked at them with his back to me at the time, and then gave me directions to take a little bit off here, or a little bit off there, wherever he thought it might be necessary—he was with me on the first day about four or five hours I should think—my two sons, William and Henry, were there during part of that day—I had to make the stamp larger, and in doing so the centre came out, and I had to make a new stamp entirely—I asked him for his card in the evening—he did not give it me, but he gave me a half-sovereign, and said he supposed that would do as well—he, came again the next day, and we were progressing with this circular stamp, the old one and the fresh one I had made—he was with me about the

same time on that day, four or five hours; I cannot say exactly to an hour—he came again the day after that and stayed about the same time—he came again on the 11th, Saturday, and remained the whole of the day—I was engaged with him the whole of that day in finishing the work—I did finish it, between 6 and 7 in the evening—he brought a tracing with him, a paper similar to this, and it was from that I worked—I prepared the brass—he marked it himself to indicate where I was to pierce the brass for the fittings to go in, so that I might have it accurate—on the last occasion, he took away two or three files which I gave him—he said that he wanted to make little alterations himself—he seemed to be very ingenious—I do not say that he was a practical man—he used a magnifying glass which he had with him—he left it behind, and fetched it away on the following Monday—he was very urgent to have them accomplished all the time—I believe the impressions on this envelope to be taken from the stamps that I cut, for in the circular stamp I recollect there was a piece of what we term bad brass—it broke away in the line between the two first letters, and it seems to be here.

Cross-examined. Q. When did you first make any statement of this matter to the prosecution? A. I will tell you how it came to light—I had to go to Cambridge last January, and a customer of mine asked me if I had ever done such a thing as in any way resembled a postage mark, and I told him I thought I had—that was Mr. Nicholls, a photographer of Cambridge—I had never seen Mr. Hartwell Roe at that time, but Mr. Nicholls was a friend of his, and there seemed to have been an inquiry about how these stamps were cut—Mr. Nicholls asked me if I had ever done such a thing in the course of my business, and singularly enough I happened to be the very person that had done it—the conversation took place in Mr. Nicholls's shop at Cambridge—I have a number of customers there—I forget the name of the street in which Mr. Nicholls lives—it is close by Mr. Roe—I think it is St. James's-parade, or King's-parade—no one was present but Mr. Nicholls and myself when this conversation took place—I did not know he was a friend of Mr. Roe's at that time—I have never worked for Mr. Roe directly or indirectly—I have never stated that I met a workman of Mr. Roe's—I have never been examined before except at the police-court—I was at Maccles-field and saw the letter there at the time the depositions were taken, but was not examined as a witness—the conversation with Mr. Nicholls took place on 14th January, and on the 16th a communication was made to me on behalf of Mr. Hartwell Roe at my shop in Fleet-lane—I did not go to the post-office at Macclesfield—I think it was on the following week after Mr. Hartwell Roe called on me, that I went to Maclesfield—he did not ask me to go to the post-office to look at their stamps—I did not go there, nor to the Bath post-office either, I have never been—I went to Mr. Johnson's on 26th January by Mr. Hartwell Roe's direction—that was to identify the prisoner—Mr. Hartwell Roe called for me, and asked me if I would go to Mr. Johnson's—he did not tell me that I should find the prisoner there, but I expected that he would be there—I was to be there at 1 o'clock—he came for me some part of the morning, I cannot exactly say what time—nobody came with him—I had seen him three or four times, between 14th and 26th of January.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. I believe, although you were to go to Mr. Johnson's office, by some mistake you went to the wrong one? A. Yes; it was my son who went to Mr. Johnson's office—he was fetched by Mr. Johnson himself to Doctors' Commons, while I was gone to Gray's Inn Square.

WILLIAM SURREY . I am the son of the last witness—I work in the shop—I was in the shop on 8th of August when my father was making a stamp—I saw the prisoner there—he was there for six or seven hours that day—I saw him on the following day, the 9th of August; he was at the shop for some hours on that day, while my father was at work at the stamps—on 26th January I went to Doctor's Commons to Mr. Johnson's—he came to the shop and asked for my father, and he was not there, and I went with him—he told me to go into an outer room, while he went into an inner room—I did so—he afterwards opened the door and told me to come in—I went into the room where he was, and I saw the prisoner there—Mr. Johnson asked me if the prisoner was the man my father made the stamps for—I said he was—the prisoner looked very pale, and put his hands up to his head—he made made no remark whatever—nothing else passed on that occasion—after that I left.

Cross-examined. Q. When did you first see Mr. Hartwell Roe about this? A. In January, at our shop—I should say it was about the 15th or 16th—he asked my father about the making of the stamps then, in my presence—I only saw him once between that time and the time I went to Doctors' Commons—I saw him on 15th or 16th, and on Saturday morning, 26th January, the day I went to Doctors' Commons—my younger brother was not there too, when this was being talked about by Mr. Hartwell Roe—he was there when the prisoner was at our shop—I don't know whether he was there when Mr. Hartwell Roe was there talking about it—I do not recollect—my father did not receive any money from Mr. Hartwell Roe, not to my knowledge—he went down to Macclesfield for ten days, from the 16th to 26th—he received some money then before he went—I think it was 2l.—I did not go down to Macclesfield—I have not received any money at all, none whatever, or my brother—I believe my father has received 5l. altogether, three besides the Macclesfield two—I did not go down to Cambridge—I have not been to the Macclesfield or Bath post-office—I have not been out of London; or has anybody, on the part of the post-office, been to our place.

HENRY SURREY . I live with my father—I remember, in August last, my father making some stamps—I saw him at work—the prisoner was present—I saw him there from Wednesday till Saturday.

ANN DUTTON . I am a clerk at the post-office at Macclesfield—it was part of my duty in 1858 and 1859 to change the date of the post-office endorsing stamps—in the course of business at the post-office, I change the endorsing stamp at different periods of the day—it is part of my duty before I stamp any letters, to take an impression of the stamp, when changed, on a piece of paper kept for that purpose—the stamps are changed now at 12 o'clock at noon, and about 5 in the afternoon—the letter D is put in at 12—the letter A is put in up to 12, B at 12, and C at 5—in the month of January, 1859, the letter B was lost, we used the letter D instead—I have got the sheet here on which the impressions were made by me when I changed the stamps (produced)—I first used the letter D on 3d of January—on 1st January I used the letters A, B, and C—this envelope could not have passed through our post-office on 1st January, 1859—I continued to use the letter D up to the 9th of May; all the letters passing through the Macclesfield post-office, which were posted between 12 and 5, from 3d of January to 9th of May in that year, would bear the letter D on them.

Q. Some question has been raised about what you call the D on that envelope, can you tell me whether that is C turned upside down, or D? A. It is D, because C was not used turned upside down in that way; if the

C had been turned upside down by mistake in the stamp, I should have found it on my impression—there is no impression of C turned upside down on that day; it is correct on that day—that impression is made before any letters are stamped—a letter posted at Macclesfield on 1st January, 1859, would go to Bath by railway, by the night mail, which leaves Macclesfield about quarter-past 10 in the evening—it could not in course of post arrive at Bath until after 12 o'clock on that night—I cannot say at what time it would arrive at Bath.

Cross-examined. Q. Did Mr. Higginbotham, an attorney, come on behalf of the prisoner and request to see this book. A. Yes; I declined to show it to him until I had permission—the first change here is on January 1st, 1858—the figure eight had not been changed, it was afterwards altered to nine—I accidentally omitted to change it—I altered it with a pen I believe—the second stamp was also an eight, and is now altered into a nine—that was done at the time the impression was taken—I did not stamp the letters in that way before—I altered this instead of making another impression—I altered it with a pen.

Q. The first stamp is "A, January 1, 1858," which you altered into 1859, and the second stamp is B, that commences at 12 o'clock, so that up to 12 o'clock you must have been stamping the letters 1858? A. I believe they are two distinct stamps; we use two stamps—we never use a D except as a substitute; it is used at some offices—the letter B was lost on 3d January—there is no B used on the 2d, that was Sunday; we never use B on Sunday—the letter C has been used turned upside down occasionally—this letter on the envelope is not a C turned upside down; it is a different shape altogether, it is not like it at all—I think there are some days upon which I have omitted to stamp the book at all—on 2d March it is not stamped—the mode of stamping is to have a cloth or flannel saturated with ink, to place the stamp upon that, and then to stamp it on the paper—if we get the stamp full of ink we make a very strong impression; but if it only sucks up a small quantity of ink we only get a very dull impression; we stamp it on the blotting pad for each impression; it is quite necessary—if the impression is dull it would be because the pad required more ink I should think—I do not stamp all the letters myself—there are two deliveries a day from Macclesfield—we have several despatches, five now—we call these despatches—the letters are not used to indicate which despatch it is by, but to show what time it is posted—the letter A would show that it was posted before 12—I have seen Mr. Coote—I believe he came to our office—Miss Serjeant, the postmistress, saw him, not in my presence—she is not here—I always take the impression of the stamp in this book—I did not speak to Mr. Coote when he came down to see the postmistress—I did not see him produce the envelope that has been handed in to-day—I cannot tell what month it was in that I saw him there—I do not know whether it was in September—I was not examined at Macclesfield for the purposes of the Chancery suit—I was examined at Bow-street; that was the first time—I have occasional holidays in the summer—I did not give Mr. Hartwell Roe information about this matter—I saw him once or twice in Macclesfield—he came to see the book—the postmistress gave him information—I think he saw the book; it was shown to Mr. Collis and also to Whicher, the detective—we had not permission to show it to Mr. Higginbotham.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. Is it part of your duty to show it unless you are permitted? A. No—it was produced before the Magistrate at Bow-street, and I was cross-examined by some one on behalf of the prisoner on the subject—

there was no omission to take the proper number of stamps on 1st January, 1859—the letter G is not turned upside down in this impression—the letter on the envelope produceed is D—(looking at paper) this is a D like the D of our post-office—I mean the D in the stamp.

JHON PRIOR . I am chief clerk at the Bath post—office, and was so in januray, 1859—the bath post mark upon this envelope is not a genuine post mark—I am able to say that positively—a letter posted at Macclesfield 1st january, and getting to bath by the night mail, would bear the bath post mark of 2d January, but it would have a different index letter to that given in the stamp—I am speakingfrom the general routine of duty—it would have a different index letter upon the post mark—I know the prisoner—I remember his calling at the Bath post office, sometime in the year 1860—I cannot say distinctly what mouth it was in; I made no note of it—I should imagine it was somewhere in july or August—I saw him—he asked if he could be allowed to see the book in which impressions from the date stamp were made of 1st January, 1859—I requested him to call the following moring, and I would let him see it if it was in the office—he called the following moring; I saw him—I had searched for the book in the mean time and found that it had been sent to the Gneral post-office, in the ordinary course of business—I told the prisoner that it was not there.

Cross-examined Q. Is it here? A. Not the book that he inquired for—I have not been to the General post-office, to inquire about it is questionable whether it could be obtained now, it is long since—I do not know how they dispose of the book there—Mr. coote did not come with the prisoner; Mr. Hollway of Milsome-street came with him—I do not know Mr. coote; there is a postmaster at the office—I am chief clerk; it is my duty to assist the postmaster in is office—he would be the person to conduct the business—he is not here; he is away on sick leave—I do not know that he saw any person about this matter—I know that a post mark was presented at some time, I do not exactly remember in what month, to Mr. Weston, the postmaster, and myself; but I am not acquainted with the man who presented it—he was a stranger and came alone—it presented for the purpose of ascertaining whether it was genuine document—I do not know that it was Mr. coote—he did not introduce himself when he asked the question—he asked if we would be kind enough to tell him if that was genuine post mark of our office—to the best of my belief Mr. weston said it was; I also said so—the index letter here is intended for A, above the word Bath—it was not this envelope I saw when the gentleman came—I swear that: it was a more distinct impression of bath date stamp than that—I am perfectly clear on that point—I cannot say whether it was the end of august or the beginning of September that it was presented; it was about that time—I am certain it was not that letter—I have not been in court while the winesses were examined, and have heard no evidence in the case—I mean deliberately to swear this is not the envelope; I say so positively—the A is not all that I found my opinion upon, it is not a perfect stamp; the letters are not upright, the B and the T are not perfect, they do not correspond with each other, they are not perpendicular—this envelope was shown to me for the first time this morning—I received my subpoena yesterday morning—inquiries had been previously made by some gentleman but I never saw the envelope till this morning—I was not examined at the police-court—I hardly say where Mr. weston is at present; I think he is in some part of scotland—I am not aware that he has been asked to attend—the book in which I make the impressions before the letters are

stamped is one similar to that produced—we use six or seven letters, or perhaps more, A, B, C, D, and so on—we do use an A—when I said that A would be the wrong index letter, I meant that it would be wrong for a letter coming from London—I thought the question I was asked was as to a letter coming by way of London—A would be the proper index letter from Macclesfield—I dare say in our office, as in others, we sometimes make a clear impression, and sometimes a dull one, according to the state of the ink.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. You said something about the letters not being upright, how are the post-office stamps made? A. The word "Bath" is cut in the solid, that is, the letters are not movable, but fixed—I should think the word "Bath" on the envelope was made by movable type; the B is not upright, and does not correspond with the other letters, they are Dot uniform in line—a letter posted at Macclesfield at night would come down by the Midland Railway by way of Birmingham in a sealed bag—that is called the North country mail—I have here a registered letter delivery receipt-book, which contains a stamped impression taken from the same stamp as that used in the book that was sent to the chief office—I had not looked at this at the time the opinion was expressed to the gentleman who called to inquire whether the stamp was a genuine one; he only called with one envelope with a good impression of the Bath stamp on the back, and very good impression of the Macclesfield stamp on the front, but it was not this—I cannot say how long ago my attention was called to the date of that transaction, it was towards the end of last year—I believe that gentleman called before I saw Mr. Roe upon, the subject, but I cannot speak with any positivenese.

MR. METCALFE. Q. Why did you not produce this book when I was asking you about the stamp? A. That was not the book you inquired for—this book is used for registered letters; it is a distinct book altogether—on 2d January, 1859, A was the index letter from Macclesfield—looking at this and the envelope together, there is a difference in the stamp; it is the same index letter, but it is not the impression of the same stamp—it was not so late as the latter part of August that I saw the gentleman who produced the envelope—it was earlier in the year than August.

Q. You have already told me that, to the best of your belief, it was the end of August or the beginning of September. A. No; I alluded to Mr. Roe calling—I believe the gentleman with the envelope called before Mr. Roe, but I cannot say the precise date—I intended to have said it was about the end of August, or the beginning of September that Mr. Roe called—there are clerks in the sorting office at Bath below me—they would not have anything to do with the stamps—it is the stamper's duty to alter the stamps; the clerks do not do that, if they want to use it they can, but there is a distinct man for that duty, called the stamper—there are two or there stampers—the stamps are locked up in charge of the stamper then on duty—none of the stampers are here—I was subpoenaed yesterday morning—I had been given to understand I should not be required—I had seen Mr. Hartwell Roe on the previous Saturday—I only saw him once—I told Mr. Roe what I knew about it—I told him I was quite sure this was not the envelope, at least, I had not seen the envelope before this morning—he came to inquire if the prisoner had ever made inquiries about the stamp—I told him very nearly all that I have told you, not quite—I did not tell him about this envelope of course, because I had never seen it: I could not have done so—I showed him the impressions in this book—I had had an order to do so, from the Post-master general—he did not bring the order with him; but I had a written order to give information, although they had never

called before—Inspector Whicher was to have called, but I never saw him till this morning—I suppose it was the end of last year that I got the order from the Post-master general to supply certain information—I was to show the book to Mr. Hartwell Roe, or any person coming on his behalf—no one came to see the book till last Saturday, and I was not shown this envelope till this morning.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. You say the gentleman, whoever he was, called earlier in the year than August? A. Yes; I cannot exactly say how much earlier, but more than a month.

MR. METCALFE. Q. Look at that gentleman (Mr. Coote, who had been sent for), is that the gentleman who brought the envelope? A. I do not recognise him as the individual—I cannot bear in mind—I see some hundreds of faces during the year.

Q. Now seeing that gentleman there, will you swear that this was not as late as the end of August? A. To the best of my belief it was the end of August—I did not swear just now that it was a month earlier—yes, it was before August—I cannot say when, but about a month previous to that—it was not so late as the end of August when the gentleman called and showed me the envelope—but I cannot say positively when it was.

JAMES PERRATON . I am a stationer, and live at 22, King—street, Snow-hill—some time in the year 1860, a person called upon me in reference to the execution of some stamps—I referred him ultimately to Mr. Surrey—I identify these (produced) as the documents I received—I think I only received two by hand—I think I received the rest by post—this, marked A1, I think I received by hand—those that I received by post, I think I gave to Mr. Surrey—the stamps so executed were to be sent to Mr. C. J Wyld, Cheltenham—they were to go by rail—I sent the things that I did send by rail so directed—I afterwards received the stamps back again, and I received the whole of those letters by post—I cannot give the date that I sent down a parcel to Cheltenham—it was towards the end of July I think, I should say it was in July—the stamps were afterwards returned by the same person who had ordered them, and I referred the person to Mr. Surrey—I cannot say that the prisoner is the person.

GEORGE WARD . I am a porter in the parcel office, at the Cheltenham railway station—some time last year a gentleman called at the office—the prisoner is the person—it was the early part of July, it might have been on the 3d, but the exact day I do not know—he said, "Have you any parcel from London for Mr. Wyld?"—I said "No"—the prisoner then said, "When you have, send to the Gloucester station, to be called for"—I said I would do so—Gloucester station is eight miles from Cheltenham—a parcel did arrive from London on 5th July, by the 8.10 train—it was addressed to Mr. J. C. Wyld, Cheltenham—it might have been C. J.—I know there was a J. and a C, but which stood first I cannot recollect—I forwarded that parcel as I had been directed, and re-directed it myself to Gloucester—I afterwards received a letter, I have not got it here, we kept it in the office fearing a second parcel should come, and in the course of a month or two it was destroyed—the effect of that letter was, that on the 11th, by the 8.10 train another parcel would come, and asking me to send it to the Gloucester station—that letter was in the name of Wyld—a parcel did come on the 11th by the 8.10 train from London, addressed the same as the previous one—I forwarded that in the same way to Gloucester—we booked it oh the 12th—in the early part of the following November, the prisoner called at our office at Cheltenham—he said, "Have you any parcels for the Rev. James

Roe? when you have, send them to College—green, Gloucester"—I recognized the prisoner—I thought he was a gentleman I had seen before, and I pondered it over in my mind, and then thought he was the same gentleman that came to me in July, and I recognise him as such now—he is the same person.

JOSEPH HOLLWAY . I am an engraver and lithographer, at 10, Milsom-street, Bath—I have known the prisoner for some time, and have done business for him occasionally—he was with us on many occasions in 1859—on one occasion, I cannot say whether it was in 1859 or 1860, he asked me if I had any envelopes bearing the North country stamp upon them—I said I had not any by me—he did not tell me what he wanted them for, and I did not ask—I told him that I might have the means of getting some, for I knew solicitors in the town, and perhaps they might have kept their envelopes—he said that he should like to get them if I could procure them, and I offered to do so—in April, 1860, the prisoner went over my lithographic process—he applied to me for the purpose of going over—I was busy at the time, and I told him that our assistant would show it him—that was Francis Pyle—I am very well acquainted with the prisoner's handwriting; I have lithographed various writings of his—I have seen these letters written in the name of Wyld; I can recognise the prisoner's hand-writing in most of them, in some of them very distinctly—they are not in the handwriting that he was in the habit of writing to me—part of the process of lithographing is to imitate writing—at the time we were working for the prisoner I was not aware that he possessed the faculty of writing different hands—last session I was subpoenaed here by the prisoner, and then for the first time some communication was made to me by the solicitor for the prosecution.

Cross-examined. Q. And by Mr. Hart well Roe also? A. I saw Mr. Hartwell Roe at the same time—he talked to me about this matter—Mr. Humphreys put these letters before me; Mr. Hartwell Roe was in theroom—Icannotsay whether it was towards the end of last year that the inquiry about the envelopes took place, it was a circumstance that did not impress me at the time—it was not as late as August or September last year, it was much earlier than that—I should think it was most likely to have been at the time he went over our premises—I did not give a written statement of the evidence I could give—Mr. Humphreys made a copy of what I stated—I should say it was in 1860 that the prisoner spoke about the envelopes; but it is a thing that I took no notice of at the time and I cannot charge my memory with it—I can give the date of his going over our premises exactly; it was 30th April, 1860—I should say the inquiry about the, stamps was before, but I really could not say—the prisoner removed from Coomb Hay to Gloucester—after his removal I continued to send him copies of the publication, back numbers, to his address at College-green, Gloucester—there were several numbers printed about the same time, in December, 1858—I believe I printed one number before 14th February, if not more—I printed a number together—I cannot say whether I sent them all off together, most likely they have gone together—we printed generally once a week—I sent him sufficient for the current supply, and afterwards sent a parcel containing the back numbers—if several numbers were printed together, we should send him at the time sufficient for his circulation, and afterwards send the back numbers—letters were occasionally inclosed with those parcels—soon after he left Cheltenham his letters were delivered at our place in Milsom—street—two or three letters remained a considerable

time at our place—the only reason why they remained was because they had been overlooked, otherwise we should have sent them off sooner—I cannot say that they were dispatched in a packet of books; the mode I adopted was to send on his letters as soon as I received them, but as time went on, from his leaving, the letters came few and far between, and then they may have laid there two or three weeks—I did not, to my knowledge, on one occasion send him a suit of regimentals in one of the packets; I do not remember it—I did not pack the parcels myself—I suppose the back numbers would not come into use till the first issue was exhausted; I do not know what he would do with them.

FRANOIS PYLE . I am in the service of Mr. Hollway—I remember the prisoner calling at his place of business at Bath, in April, 1860—he spoke to me—he said, with Mr. Hollway's permission, I was to show him over the process of lithography—I did show him—he was there about three quarters of an hour altogether, I should think—he inquired very minutely into the practical working, and also as to the various kinds of pens that were used—I showed him the various sorts of pens which were used—he used one pen himself, on transfer paper, merely to try his skill in using the pen; he could use it—from the conversation I had with him, I am able to say that he had some knowledge of the art—it appeared to me, from the conversation, that there was some difficulty in the process which he could not get over, and he came to me to make it out—I know that this was 30th April, 1860 from an entry I made in the book at the time; I have it here (produced)—I speak positively to the date, from that entry—he has not examined the process on other occasions besides this once, neither before or since.

Cross-examined. Q. Had you ever shown other people over your works? A. No; nobody at all—I was not aware at the time that he had a lithographic press, I only know it from hearsay—I did not know at that time that he was proposing to take out a patent for a lithographic press—not before the last half hour—I inferred there were some difficulties from what he said; I explained the process to him as minutely as I could.

WILLIAM HARVEY . I am a lithographer—about the month of May or June, 1860, I had a lithographic press for sale—between the latter end of May and the middle of June, 1860 the prisoner called upon me to look at the press, and afterwards purchased it of me—he called upon me from time to time after he had purchased it, and had conversations with me about the mode of working it—he seemed to understand the process pretty well I thought—I remember being at work upon a job one day when the prisoner came in—he asked me something about lithography, and he tried the press that I was using, a few times; what we call rolling—he rolled a copy of what I was doing, off; he seemed to do it pretty well, I thought.

Cross-examined. Q. Were you at work at that time upon the prisoner's publication? A. No; I was doing my own work—I did not work at all for him at that time, I did some months afterwards—he was not endeavouring to show me what he wanted done—he asked me questions—he told me he thought of having a man to do it, and ultimately employed me, but he meant on his own premises when he spoke to me about it.

JONATHAN WHICHER . I am an inspector of the M Division, detective police—I received a warrant for the apprehension of the prisoner on 9th, May—I endeavoured to take him immediately, and was successful on 20th—I had been looking for him in the meantime—on Monday, 20th, I saw him in Hatton-garden between 9 and 10 in the evening—I said to him, "I believe you are the Rev. James Roe"—he made no answer, and I then said,

"I believe your name is Roe, is it not?"—he said, "I decline to answer that question; but why do you ask?"—I said, "I am a police officer and hold a warrant for your apprehension, charging you with uttering a forged document for 6,000l".—he made no reply, but turned round to a lady, his wife, who was walking with him—I then went to No. 35, or 36, Hatton-wall, to his lodgings, and there read the warrant to him—he asked several times to see Mr. Roe, and I said, "Mr. Roe is at the bottom of the street if you wish to see him;" but I said if it was with a view of stopping these proceedings I could not allow him to see him, as the warrant was executed—I then took him to the police-station.

Cross-examined. Q. Had Mr. Roe been about with you? A. Yes; assisting me—Mr. Hartwell Roe had a cigar in his mouth at the time I took the prisoner—I went with Mr. Hartwell Roe to Mr. Chandler's, at Gloucester—I was introduced there by him as Mr. Wilson, an attorney from Cambridge, and I adopted that—Mr. Chandler is a very respectable man, a friend of the prisoner's—I appeared as an attorney because I understood that Mr. Chandler could give information where the prisoner was; and I thought if I was to represent myself as a police officer, I should not, perhaps, get what I wanted—I did not go as an attorney to Mrs. Sale also—I went as Mr. Wilson; bat not an attorney—she said she knew I was a lawyer, and I did not contradict her—I did not tell her I was a police-officer—nothing was said about being a friend of Mr. Roe's—I did not ask Mrs. Sale to give evidence, nor did Mr. Roe—we asked her for the prisoner's address—there was some conversation about her being indebted to Mr. Roe the costs of the suit—he said he could have her arrested if he thought proper—nothing was said about her giving evidence—he wanted her to give Mr. James Roe's address—he did not say he was going to prosecute him for forgery or for anything—he said nothing at all about evidence—I don't believe he did—we did not wish her to know that we were about apprehending him—we were endeavouring to get his address from her, and in consequence of her refusing to give it Mr. Roe said, "I think you ought; as you know if I thought proper I could have you arrested for the costs"—Mr. Roe did not say to Mr. Chandler that he was going to prosecute the prisoner, but he would not proceed against him if he would withdraw his claim, nor anything to that effect—Mr. Chandler wanted to know what we wanted to find the prisoner for, and Mr. Roe said it was to settle the matter—that was on 15th May, after the warrant was out—I had the warrant in my pocket at that time—he did not say if a bond of indemnity was given against the claim he would withdraw the proceedings—the wanting to settle it was a mere subterfuge—no terms of settlement were named—Mr. Chandler said, "Before I give you any information, Mr. Roe is a friend of mine; you want to apprehend him, if you do, I will not give you any information," and upon that Mr. Roe said that he wanted to settle it—I do not believe he said anything to the effect that he would withdraw from the proceedings if a bond of indemnity was given—he certainly said he wanted to see him to settle the matter.

JOHN CHARLES RICHARDS . I am a solicitor at Gloucester—I know the prisoner—I saw him execute this deed—I attested it (This was dated 27th June, 1859, and was a deed of indemnity between James Roe, Lord Denman, and Joseph Moore, on one part; and George Hartwell Roe, and John Orme Roe, on the other part; by which, on payment to the prisoner of 500l. it was undertaken that he should make no claim upon the estate of the testator).

JOSEPH HOLLWAY (re-examined). The signature to these two receipts are in the prisoner's writing. (The one was dated 25th January, 1850, for

485l., being a legacy of 500l., less legacy duty; the other was dated 20th July, 1859, and was for a sum of 392l. 8s., the balance of a sum of 500l. a gift to the prisoner from John Orme Roe

GEORGE HARTWELL ROE . I am in business as a jeweller, at Cambridge—I became the acting executor under this will, the other executors having renounced—I had all the books and papers belonging to the testator, Edward Roe, amongst others, his banker's book—at the time of his death he had at his bankers, 1,699l. 3s. 3d.

Cross-examined. Q. Were you present at the time the will was made, in 1858? A. I was not—I was out at Macclesfield—I was not there during the last four or five days of December, nor for six months before—Mr. John Orme Roe was there at that time—I have seen the previous will of 1857—under that the prisoner was residuary legatee with me—almost the only alteration made by this will was the substitution of John Orme Roe for the prisoner—I believe it is in court—there were several other wills, or drafts of wills—they were not sent by me to Mr. Chapman—I gave Mr. Chapman one will, and that was destroyed—he is a grocer, and has occasion for waste paper, and I gave it him amongst other waste paper—I had offered the prisoner 500l. as a present—he told me he had claims against the estate, and this deed was to indemnify me against those claims—Lord Denman had with-drawn his caveat nearly twelve months before, but he was made a party to this deed, because I would not consent to take the prisoner's guarantee—I insisted upon having Lord Denman's name in the indemnity—I do not know whether the prisoner's father was the eldest brother of Edward Roe—I never knew any of the family, and therefore I cannot answer the question—I never knew any of them until this transaction—I never knew James Roe, or Johu Orme Roe—I knew my uncle Edward Roe—I really do not know that the prisoner's father was Edward Roe's elder brother—I know nothing of the prisoner being there as a boy with him—I know nothing of the family affairs—I did not know my uncle till about eight years before fee died—I never heard before you mentioned it, that the prisoner was brought up with him as a boy—I think I first heard of this letter on 4th June, from my attorneys at Macclesfield—it may be that I heard that the letter was put before Mr. Coote on 4th June—it came to me of course, through my attorneys at Macclesfield—they wrote to me to say they had received a communication from Messrs. Johnson and Coote—I knew nothing at all about John Orme Roe—I knew none of them: in fact I am engaged in trade, and that has made all the difference in the family—I never knew any of my relatives—those who are in professions are separated from those who are in trade—when I heard of this cheque I went to Mr. Johnson's to examine it—I went frequently—took Mr. Netherclift and Adlard, the experts, with me—I did not meet Mr. Cooke, another expert there—I did not know that he had been—I heard that Mr. Coote had had parties there, but I cannot speak of my own knowledge—I took Mr. Netherclift, and Mr. Adlard on one occasion with me to examine the documents, and on several occcasions I took Mr. Adlard himself—Mr. Collis also went with me, or more properly speaking, I went with him—I also went with Mr. Brocklehurst—I got cheques from Mr. Brocklehurst for Mr. Johnson to examine—I think Mr. Collis had them—I do not know whether they were left with Mr. Johnson—I went to Mr. Chandler with the detective, and introduced him as Mr. Wilson, an attorney—I did not introduce him to Mrs. Sale as Mr. Wilson—he called himself Wilson—I did not tell Mr. Chandler that all I wanted was an indemnity against the claim, nor anything to that effect—I said we wanted to find the prisoner—I did not say I wanted to settle it—certainly

not, because I did not intend to: I made up my mind to have him—I said nothing of the kind to Mr. Chandler—I do not remember it—if Whicher has said so his memory is better than mine—something of the sort probably may have passed, because we were determined to find him—I told Mrs. Sale that she was indebted to me—we went to her for the purpose of finding out where the prisoner was—I did not tell her I wanted her to give evidence—I do not remember it—I told her she was in my power—she does owe me a large sum for costs—our taxed costs as against her are nearly 500l.—it is very likely we said that we were going to prosecute Mr. Roe, and wanted her to give evidence, although I do not remember it.

The letters sent to Mr. Surrey, twelve in number, were here put in and read. They were all dated from Cheltenham, and signed C. J. Wyld (in one instance G. M. Wylde), commencing June 28th, 1860, and ending July 31st, 1860; they referred to the stamps then in progress, giving minute details at to the make, and suggesting various alterations, to correspond with patterns sent; one letter of 26th July, stated, "As all the letters are used in the common postage stamps, they are probably in type, and you could obtain them quid than by making." In the last letter of July 31st, the stamps were requested to be ready without fail by the following Friday

GUILTY .— Ten Years' Penal Servitude

NEW COURT.—Wednesday, August 21st, 1861.


Before Mr. Common Serjeant

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-666
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

Related Material

666. MARY RILEY (45) , Stealing a sovereign, the property of Anna Reeve and another.

MR. LILLEY conducted the Prosecution

EDWARD BASSET . I am manager to Barbara and Anna Reeves, pawnbrokers, 13, Red Cross-street—on 10th July, about 11 in the morning, the prisoner, who was a customer, came and offered a pair of men's boots for 9s.—I had some silver out of the till for the purpose of paying her, when one of the Misses Reeve knocked at the door at the back, and asked me to give her change for a sovereign—I took the sovereign, threw it on the counter, counted out 20s., and gave it to Miss Reeve—a youth, named Astley, was assisting in the shop, but there was no other customer—when I turned to the counter Astley almost immediately said, in the prisoner's hearing, "I saw Mrs. Riley take a sovereign off of the counter"—the prisoner said, "It is the half sovereign you gave me for the boots I have just pledged"—I had not then made any advance on the boots—I made no answer, but gave her 8s. 11 1/2 d., the advance on the boots—she then said, "This is one of several half-sovereigns my housekeeper has to keep for me," holding it in her hand—she did not appear to know that it was a sovereign, but I could see it in her hand—she said, "This sovereign I brought out to buy a shawl with"—one of the young men who then came into the shop showed her a shawl—she purchased it for 16s., and paid a deposit of 2s. 6d. on it and went away—when she was gone a calculation was made.

MR. ATKINSON. Q. Do you keep your accounts in books? A. Yes; I enter them shortly afterwards, and had done so on this morning—after she left a comparison was made between the books and the till.

MR. LILLEY. Q. Could you tell with any certainty by merely counting the money in the till? A. No—the prisoner returned about ten minutes afterwards, and in consequence of the information Astley gave me, I gave her in custody—I did not find the sovereign on the counter after I had thrown it there.

Cross-examined by MR. ATKINSON. Q. Is the young man here who howed her the shawl? A. No; he has left us—there is no glass door at the back of the shop—I do not remember that the till was open to get silver out when I threw the sovereign on the counter; it might have been—I have never found sovereigns pitch on the edge and roll on the other side—I have not almost persuaded myself into the belief that I put the sovereign into the till—I said that I endeavoured to persuade myself so, but I did not succeed—when the boy told me that he saw the prisoner pick it up I did not immediately charge her, because I endeavoured to get it back by other means; and being a customer, I did not believe she would be dishonest enough to do so—I did not even ask her for it—I had not paid her for the boots, and I actually paid her for them afterwards, knowing at the time that she had a sovereign of my mistresses in her possession—my memory is not in a haze in the slightest; what I have stated I believe to be the truth—I believe she said that she had got a sovereign belonging to her husband sewn up in her dress—I actually had doubts in my mind whether she had taken the sovereign or not, as 1 know her as a customer—she priced the shawl before she went—she said that she had sewn the sovereign up in her drew unknown to her husband, and that her object was to buy a shawl with it—the young man left the service a fortnight ago, through illness; it had nothing to do with this—I could find him—the prisoner's husband was somewhere in the street while she was pledging the boots—he came in before she left, and she gave him the halfpence—I do not remember his taking the half-crown—the prisoner held out the sovereign, and said, "Here is the sovereign; but give me the shawl first"—about a quarter of an hour afterwards she came back with her husband and brought six half-crowns, which I took possession of, and would not give up—she told me she knew nothing whatever about my sovereign, when she said that she had sewn it up in her dress to buy a shawl.

MR. LILLEY. Q. Did the young man, who has left through illness, see any part of this transaction? A. I think not; he came in, I think, just as the woman went out—I did not pitch the sovereign into the till, nor try to do b—I threw it on to the centre of the counter—I am quite clear upon that—Astley gave me information first, in the prisoner's presence, and afterwards when she was gone.

ALFRED ASTLEY . I was assistant at the pawnbroking establishment of the Misses Reeve, on July 10, but have left—about 11, on that morning, the prisoner came—there was no one else in the same box—there are four boxes which run along in front of the counter, and there is also a certain space free from boxes—I do not think there was anybody else in the other boxes, or in the part which is not boxed off—when Bassett was engaged serving the prisoner, somebody came to the door—he then went to the door, and threw a sovereign on the counter—it did not roll off; but while he was engaged in counting the silver and taking it to the door, the prisoner took the sovereign up—I directly said to Bassett, "That woman has taken the sovereign off the counter that you have thrown down"—the prisoner held it in her hand, and I said, "The sovereign you picked up does not belong to you"—she said, "It is the half-sovereign the foreman has just given me

for the boots"—I had not seen her receive any money for the boots-a shawl was afterwards shown to her, and she left the shop—I then gave further information to Bassett.

Cross-examined. Q. Was the till open at the time the sovereign was thrown? A. Half way—it is not very large; there is a bowl in it, but quite at the back—I saw the till before he pitched the sovereign—he pitched it over the top of the till—I left after the other young man—both he and Bassett served the shawl, I believe—I spoke to the prisoner twice—it was four or five minutes after that that I told Bassett again—the prisoner went round and came to the other part of the shop—she told me to fetch her husband in, and I did so—I said nothing to him about the sovereign—I thought it was no business of mine to speak to him—I did not see the husband give half-a-crown towards the deposit—I was standing at the other end of the shop, and do not know what he said—I did not bear the prisoner say that the sovereign she had in her hand she had sewn up in her dress—when she came into our place she said that it was one of a great. many her housekeeper was minding for her.

MR. LILLEY. Q. Did you mention this almost immediately the prisoner took the sovereign up? A. Yes—it is not part of my duty to sweep out the shop—I only help in the shop in the afternoons—after the prisoner left the first time a search was made on the floor by the foreman and me, but no sovereign was found—the gold is kept at the back of the till—Bassett did not endeavour to pitch into the till with the sovereign.

MR. ATKINSON. Q. Where did you search? A. At the back of the till and on the floor—I was certain, but the foreman was not, so he went to the back of the till to convince himself, and we looked on the floor down below the till—we did not take a light; it was quite light—the sovereign was pitched on the counter—it did not strike me that the proper place to look for it was beyond the place where it was pitched, because there is a ledge—I only searched to satisfy the foreman—I was certain the prisoner had taken it.

COURT. Q. You thought it quite absurd to be looking? A. Yes; but I looked very carefully to satisfy him—I did not look particularly carefully—I did not see the foreman find it.

HENRY CHILD (City-policeman, 128). On 10th July I was called to Misses Reeve's shop, and the prisoner was given into my custody for taking a sovereign from the counter—she said, "I did not take it; the sovereign belonged to me; I took it out of my dress"—I took her to the station—she was searched, but no money found on her.

Cross-examined. Q. Did not she further say that she had sewn it up in her dress unknown to her husband? A. Yes; and that it dropped out—she showed me a place where her dress had been torn—she gave her address—I went there and found it all correct—I made inquiries about her, and found that she was a hard-working woman.

The prisoner received an excellent character. NOT GUILTY .

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-667
VerdictGuilty > lesser offence
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

Related Material

667. SARAH SMITH (45) , Burglariously breaking and entering the dwelling-house of Leon Benjamin, and stealing therein 1 chair, his property.

MR. DICKIE conducted the Prosecution.

LEON BENJAMIN . I am a packer, and live at 8, Newcastle-street, Strand—about 5 o'clock, on the morning of 3d August, I heard a noise—I went down stairs in consequence, but not the first time I heard it—a few minutes after I got down to the kitchen, I discovered that these two chairs (produced)

were gone—the street door was on the jar—the last lodger that came in had fastened the door—I did not see the door safe—I immediately went out and looked up and down the street, and down the street opposite, and saw her with these two chairs—I am able to say that they are mine—I asked her to bring them back where she stole them from—she said, "What do you mean?"—I told her she knew very well what I meant—she struggled with me and I brought her back to the centre of the street, and she made an attempt to go away—I seized her by both arms, and got her as far as our door—she afterwards said she saw the chairs in the doorway—I called a policeman and gave her in charge—my house had been robbed very seriously five or six weeks before.

COURT. Q. Had the door been forced? A. Yes; the lock had been loosened so that a person could get in—there was a bolt inside the door, but it was not bolted—the latch had evidently been forced by some false key—I satisfied myself from examining, that somebody might have got in that way.

Prisoner. Q. Did you ever see me in your place before? A. I never saw you in my life before.

COURT. Q. Did you miss anything else on this morning in your house? A, No—I had seen my chairs safe the night before.

Prisoner's Defence. I never was in the man's house in my life; the chairs were outside the door, very dirty; I was going to Covent Garden market, and I thought they were put out there for any poor person to take, there being bottoms to them.

COURT to LEON BENJAMIN. Q. How many lodgers were there in the house? A. Four—the prisoner was going a different way than to Covent Garden Market.

GUILTY of Larceny.

She was further charged with having been before convicted.

WILLIAN HOOPER (Policeman, F 66). I produce a certificate (Read: "Central Criminal Court, 17th September, 1860.—Sarah Smith, convicted on her own confession of burglary, having been previously convicted. Confined Six Months.")—I was present—the prisoner is the person.

GUILTY.**— Four Years' Penal Servitude.

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-668
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

Related Material

668. RICHARD TOBIN (27) , Stealing 1 gelding, 1 set of harness, 1, cart, 2 cwt. of beef, 1 cwt. of mutton, and 1 cwt. of pork, the property of James Way.

MR. DICKLE conducted the Prosecution.

MARTHA BANKS . I live at 32, Queen-street, Mile-end, Newtown—my husband is a butcher—we keep a licensed slaughter-house—on 20th of last month the prisoner came to our house with a horse and cart loaded with meat—another man was with him—he unloaded the cart and went away—he did not say anything to me—that was about half-past 9 o'clock in the evening—it might be a little later, but I do not think it was any earlier—I saw what was taken out of the cart, but I cannot say exactly what it was—I did not see any name on the cart—the policeman afterwards came and found it, and took it away—I sent to my husband directly, and in consequence of that the police came almost directly; at about 10 o'clock, I should think they were there, and they kept watch there till about 1 o'clock—the prisoner then came, and was taken in custody—I saw the policeman and him have a scuffle together—he scuffled hard with the policeman outside the door, hut I was so frightened that I got away, and I cannot say exactly what it was.

Prisoner. Q. When I came up to your house, did not I ask you whether your husband was at home? A. No, you did not; it was the other man—

you never spoke to mo at all—I told the other man that my husband was not at home—I never saw you in my life before that occasion.

JAMES WAY . I am a butcher, living at 2, Limekiln-hill, Limehouse—on 20th of last month I was at Leadenhall-market, about 9 or a quarter past 9 in the morning—I had a pony and cart there—my name was on the cart—there was a quantity of meat in it, a side of beef, two sheep, a sheep cut up, a shoulder of mutton, breast of mutton, and some flanks of beef—I left the pony and cart just outside the market—when I returned I found them and the meat gone—the value of the meat was about 20l. and the pony, harness, and cart, about 30l., from that to 35l.—I next saw the pony and cart at my house—they were brought home to me about 5 o'clock by the witness Dunmore—I afterwards received a large quantity of meat said to be mine—it nearly all corresponded generally to what I had bought—there was a breast of mutton gone—Mr. Banks brought the meat—I saw the prisoner—I never authorized him to take my pony and cart away, nor any meat—I have seen him loitering about somewhere—his face is familiar to me some-where.

Prisoner. Q. When did you see me last? A. Your face is familiar to me about Leadenhall-market, or Limehouse, or somewhere—I cannot say what particular day I have seen you—I was never asked by the inspector of the station whether I knew you—when I went in there I saw you, and recognised you directly as the man I had seen about the market—a man at the market is in the habit of minding the ponies and carts, and I told him to mind mine, and when I returned they were gone.

COURT. Q. Was the harness all right when it came home? A. Yes.

ROBERT WELHAM (Policeman, K 189). On 20th of last month I was sent for to Mr. Banks' slaughter-house in Mile-end-road, and a large quantity of meat was given into my charge by Mr. Banks—he communicated something to me, and I remained in charge of this meat till about 1 o'clock, I cannot say to a few minutes—while I was there the prisoner came to claim that meat—I touched him on the back, and said, "If you please I want to speak to you if you choose to come into the house"—he came in—I was in plain clothes—I told him I was a policeman—he said, "I wish you would let me go as far as the door, I shall faint;"—he got to the door, and got me out into the street—we had a struggle—he attempted to get away—he said, "What do you want me for?"—I said, "For being concerned with others in stealing some meat"—he said he knew nothing about it—he was very violent—I got assistance, and we got back into the house again—I had to draw my truncheon—I ultimately took him to the station-house—the meat was taken to Mr. Way.

JOSEPH DUNMORE . I am a dyer, and live at 15, Albert-place, Seacoal-lane, Bethnal-green—on 20th of last month I was passing down Bethnal-green-road, and saw the horse and cart in a remote part of South Conduit-street—it stood there for some hours unattended, and when I found no one came for it I saw the name on the cart, Mr. Way, Limekiln-hill, Limehouse, and I took it to him—there was in it an oil-skin coat, a whip, and a cloth.

The prisoner, in his defence, stated that two men had asked him to go up to Mr. Banks' house for them, and that while he was there the policeman came and took him in custody, and that he knew nothing whatever about the property.


He was further charged with having been before convicted.

EDWIN COLEMAN (Policeman, M 52). I produce a certificate—(Read: "Central Criminal Court, 9th April, 1857.—John Burman, convicted, after having been twice previously convicted of felony, of burglariously breaking and entering

a dwelling-house, stealing therefrom four cwt. of beef. Four Years' Penal Servitude")—the prisoner is the person—I had him in custody.

GUILTY.**— Six Years' Penal Servitude.

THIRD COURT.—Wednesday, August 21st, 1861.


Before Robert Malcolm Kerr, Esq.

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-669
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

Related Material

669. HENRY ALFRED BROWN (27) , Stealing 9 bagatelle balls, of Reason Hough, his property; to which he

PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Six Months.

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-670
VerdictGuilty > unknown

Related Material

670. ANN SMITH (47) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.

MESSRS. CRAWFORD and HODGSON conducted the Prosecution.

RICHARD GREEN . I am a baker, of 123, Old-street, St. Luke's—on Wednesday, 5th June, the prisoner came, and I served her with half--a-quartern of flour, which was 3 3/4 d.—she gave me a 2s. piece, and I gave her change—she went out, and I then looked at the money, found it was bad and put it on a shelf by itself—I sent a person after the prisoner, but he did not see her—I took the money to the station, marked it, and gave it to the inspector—I took it back, and wrapped it in paper, and kept it till July—I afterwards gave it to constable, G 176.

JAMES MARSHALL . I am barman at the Sir John Falstaff, Old-street, St. Luke's—I served the prisoner about the middle of July with half-a-quartern of gin, which was 2 1/2 d.—she gave me a counterfeit florin—I discovered it to be bad, and told her so—she said it did not belong to her, it belonged to a young woman in the opposite street, and she would fetch her—I said, "No"—I kept the 2s. piece—she went away, and never returned—I kept the gin—I broke the florin when I found she did not return, and put it by on the shelf—I have lost one piece, the other I gave to the constable.

SARAH HULDES . On Thursday, 25th July, I was barmaid at the Brick-layers' Arms, Whitecross-street—I recollect the prisoner coming in that afternoon—she asked for a quartern of rum, the price of which would be 6d.—she gave me a 5s. piece—I took it up from the counter, and took it in to my master, Mr. Row—he took it round in the bar, and said something to the prisoner, which I could not hear—he sent for a policeman, and gave her in charge.

GEORGE HART ROW . I am landlord of the Bricklayers' Arms, Whitecross-street, St. Luke's—the last witness came to me on 25th July, and gave me a counterfeit crown—I came out of the parlour, outside the bar, to where the prisoner was standing—I said to her, "What have you got here?"—she said, "Oh! if you will let me go I will bring the person that gave it to me"—I sent for a policeman, and detained the prisoner till he came—I marked the money, and gave it to him—the prisoner and another party had been there previously that day, at dinner time.

CHARLES ROBERTSON (Policeman, G 176). On 25th July I received the prisoner in charge at Mr. Row's, and received a 5s. piece from Mr. Row—the prisoner made no reply to the charge—at the station she was asked for her address, and did not give any—this (produced) is the money that I received, a florin from Green, part of a florin from Marshall, and a crown piece from Row.

WELLIAM WEBSTER . These are all counterfeits.

GUILTY .*†— Confined One Year upon each uttering, the second year to commence at the expiration of the first.

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-671
VerdictGuilty > unknown

Related Material

671. WILLIAM FORD (27), Was indicted for a like offence.

MESSRS. CRAWFORD and HODGSON conducted the Prosecution.

JOHN RICHARD CRISWICK . I am a ginger-beer maker, of Little Earl-street, Seven-dials—I remember the prisoner coming to me early in June, and purchasing a penny bottle of ginger-beer—I gave him change, and he left, and I then found the shilling to be bad—I bent it, and put it away by itself and afterwards gave it to constable, F 80—on the following Sunday evening the prisoner came and asked for another bottle of ginger-beer—he tendered a 5s. piece—I found it was light, and was about to break it in the detector, and he said, "Don't do that, here is a penny"—I gave him the crown and he gave me a penny, and left the shop.

THEODORE MELLARTS . I am an egg-merchant, of 11, Little Earl-street, Seven-dials—on Thursday, 4th July, the prisoner came to my shop and asked for three eggs, which came to twopence—my wife served him; her name is Mary Ann Mellarts—I saw the coin that the prisoner gave her; it was a 2s. piece—she gave him change and he went away—as soon as he was gone, my wife gave it to me—I had not let it go out of my sight the whole time—I saw it was the same that the prisoner gave her—it was bad—I put it on one side, marked it, and afterwards gave it to constable F 80.

DANIEL AHEARN . I am a greengrocer, and live at 37, New Compton-street—on Saturday, 27th July, the prisoner came into my shop and asked for two pounds of potatoes, which came to 1 1/2 d.—I served him, and he gave me a bad 2s. piece—I did not like the look of it, and gave it to my wife to take next door to try it, and while she was away he offered me a good sixpence, and I took it in my hand, but I would not let him go—my wife called a policeman, and I gave him in charge.

ANNA AHEARN . I am the wife of the last witness—on 27th July, I received a florin from my husband and gave it to the constable—I never let it out of my hand till then.

SAMUEL HAWKER (Policeman, F 80). I was on duty in New Compton-street, on the night of 27th July—I was called to the last witness' shop, and the prisoner was given into my custody there—he said, "I know nothing of the 2s. piece"—when the wife returned with the 2s. piece, he said, "You can't lock me up for only having one place"—I took him to the station—I received some money (produced) from the last witness, and this shilling (produced) from Mr. Criswick—I searched the prisoner, and found on him three good sixpences and a halfpenny—I asked his address; he said he had none—I have produced two florins.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . These coins are all counterfeit, and the two florins are from the same mould.

GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months.

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-672
VerdictGuilty > unknown

Related Material

672. JAMES HARDMAN (18) , Unlawfully attempting to steal 1 watch, the property of Joseph Salmon, from his person.

MR. PARK conducted the Prosecution.

JOSEPH SALMON . I am an officer of the Customs, and live at 6, Elizabeth-place, Rotherhithe—about 8 o'clock on the morning of 26th July, I was on the Surrey end of London-bridge, reading a notice about the election; whilst doing so, I observed the prisoner standing very close to me, and on looking down I saw my watch in his hand—he was trying to get it off the guard—I snatched it out of his hand and said, "You scoundrel, you have got

my watch"—he did not succeed in getting it off the guard—I laid hold of him and accused him—he got away from me—I followed him and called out, "Stop thief!"—he ran on the left-hand side of London-bridge—he was stopped, and Mr. Scott came to my assistance—when I caught hold of the prisoner, he hit me on the back of the hand and attempted to kick me—he became so violent, it required half-a-dozen people to secure him—we dragged him along, and then he threw himself down and I fell on the top of him—when we got to the end of London-bridge a policeman came up and I gave him in custody—I have my watch here (produced)—it was not severed from the guard.

Prisoner. Q. Why did not you hold my hand while the watch was in it? A. I was anxious to secure my watch, lest you should pass it to anybody else—there were twenty or thirty people there.

RICHARD SOUTT . I am an officer of the Customs, and live at 2, Philpotterrace, Mile-end—I was on London-bridge about a quarter to 8, on the 26th of last July, standing alongside the prosecutor, who was reading a placard—I saw a tussle between him and the prisoner—I turned round and saw that the prisoner had got the prosecutor's watch ill his hand—he broke away from the prosecutor—I seized him, and he broke away from me—I then saw him put his hand in his waistcoat pocket and take something out—he ran against a ginger-beer truck there, and I seized him again on the other side of the footpath, he said, "If you don't let me go, I will murder you," and he kicked me dreadfully in the leg—he also said, "If you don't let me go, I will bite your b—finger off"—he hurt my hand very much—I have been under medical treatment since—when he got to the middle of the bridge he threw himself down—it took half-a-dozen people to secure him—we were obliged to take him from one end of the bridge to the other before we found a policeman.

Prisoner. Q. You say you saw the watch in my hand? A. Yes—I did not apprehend you then, because you broke away.

MR. PARK. Q. Did you see any knife? A. I saw him put his hand in his pocket and take out something.

THOMAS SHEEN . I live in the Borough-market, and sell ginger-beer on London-bridge—I was there on 26th July last, and the prisoner ran against my truck and a knife fell from the truck—I saw him struggling in the gentleman's hands and went to find an officer, and an officer came afterwards and took him—I do not know who dropped the knife—it was open—it was between the gentleman and the prisoner.

JAMES MILLS (City-policeman, 584). About a quarter to 8 o'clock, on 26th July, I saw the prisoner and prosecutor struggling together on the city side of London-bridge—I saw the prosecutor's hand bleeding—I received a knife from the last witness, which he picked up open—I took the prisoner to the station.

Prisoner's Defence. I never saw a knife; I never had one in my possession.

GUILTY .*— Confined Twelve Months.

NEW COURT.—Thursday, August 22d, 1861.


Before Mr. Justice Blackburn.

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-673
VerdictGuilty > lesser offence

Related Material

673. JOSEPH MEAD (33), was indicted for b—ty.

MR. ROWDEN conducted the Prosecution, and MR. BEST the Defence.

GUILTY of the attempt. — Confined Eighteen Months.

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-674
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

Related Material

674. JABEZ WRIGHT (19) , Stealing, whilst employed in the Post-office, a letter containing sixpence, the property of Her Majesty's Postmastergeneral.

MR. CLERK conducted the Prosecution.

WILLIS CLARE . I am one of the inspectors of letter-carriers at the General post-office—the prisoner was employed in July as letter-carrier at the eastern district, Commercial-road—he also assisted in sorting the letters before his delivery—in consequence of instructions I went to that office on the morning of the 24th—the prisoner was then engaged in sorting letters—Bingham came to me, and I placed myself in a situation where I could see the prisoner, but he could not see me—I saw him feel some of the letters—he found one and felt it with his finger and thumb—he then placed it at the back of other letters which he had in his left hand, and went on sorting till he came to that letter again, and then placed it at the back of some other letters—he then collected the letters which he had been sorting, and took them to hit seat to arrange them in order for delivery—when he got to his seat I saw him feel the letter again—it was then among some other letters—he laid it apart from them while he was sorting, drew it towards him, looked round him, drew his handkerchief out, wiped his mouth, and dropped his handkerchief on the letter, which he took up under his handkerchief and pat it in the inside pocket of the flap of his coat—I asked him his name, and then said, "Step into the inspector's room; I want to speak to you"—Bingham came into the room directly afterwards and said, "You have been seen to pot a letter into your pocket; is that so?"—he said, "No, I have not"—I directed Bingham to search him, who took the handkerchief from his pocket and this letter fell from it—it is addressed Mr. W. Tripple, 17, New-street, Londen, Limehouse—I could see that there was coin in it—I said to the prisoner, "How do you account for that letter being in your pocket?"—he made no answer—I said, "How came it in your pocket; who put it there"—he said, "I did"—it was not in his delivery, and he had no right to take it with his letters to his seat—it bears the post-mark of London, S.E.—Erith is I think in that district—that would come in due course to the Commercial-road office, for delivery at Limehouse.

Cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH. Q. How many persons were engaged sorting letters at that time beside the prisoner? A. Perhaps ten or twenty; they were in the same room as he was—this letter might rightly pass through the prisoner's hands in process of sorting, but it had no right to be at his seat—the sorters each take a bundle to sort promiscuously into different alphabets, and after they are sorted, they are taken to the letter-carriers' seats by themselves—several letters, including this, were taken by the prisoner to his seat, but they were not tied up in a bundle—it has always been my notion that he separated a particular letter from the others, and threw his handkerchief over that identical letter, because I had had information that he had done it before—that has always been my account of how this occurred—it is very possible that his handkerchief may have fallen over other letters, and he then picked it up and put it in his pocket—when I asked him who put the letter in his pocket, he said, "I did"—I did not hear him say subsequently that how the letter came into his pocket he could not say, unless he had picked it up with his handkerchief—he never said that he was innocent, or that it was a mistake; nothing of the kind—he said, "I put it there," and then ended the conversation—I gave him in.

charge—when I charged him with stealing it, he did not say, "I not steal it;" he said, "I put it there."

MR. CLERK. Q. On the sorting table, are the letters thrown out indiscriminately from the bags? A. Yes—a number of clerks are employed there sorting letters—they sort the letters to particular walks for the different carriers—a letter-carrier sorting, would have some letters for his own walk, and some for other walks—this letter was not in the prisoner's walk, so he should either have sorted it, or given it to the proper letter-carrier—the letter was just in advance of him—when he returned his handkerchief to his pocket, I could not see whether the letter was gone or not—I could not tell one letter from another—when he removed his handkerchief, I could not positively say whether a letter had been removed.

HENRY BINGHAM . I am a constable attached to the post-office—on the morning of 27th July, I accompanied Mr. Clare to the eastern district office, Commercial-road, and placed myself where I had a full command of the prisoner, who was sorting letters at the sorting table—I saw him feeling them with his finger and thumb—he put a letter at the back of other letters, I which he had in his hand; and when he came to it again, he sorted it to some letters which he took away to his seat—he then singled the letter from the others, pulled it a short distance nearer to him, in front of the others, put his hand in his pocket, took out his handkerchief, wiped his mouth and I nose, put it down on the table, picked it up and put it into his flap coatpocket—Mr. Clare called him into the inspector's office, and I followed—Mr. Clare told him he had been seen to put a letter into his pocket—he said that he had not—by Mr. Clare's directions, I drew the handkerchief out of his pocket and shook it; this letter fell from it, and I picked it up—I could feel that it contained a coin—Mr. Clare then asked him how that letter came to get into his pocket—her made no answer—Mr. Clare asked him again, and he said, "I put it there"—I then went away to search his premises, and left him with Mr. Clare.

Cross-examined. Q. Were those the words he made use of, "I put it there?" A. Yes; there is no mistake about that; I am quite sure of that—the words were not "I did;" he said, "I put it there"—I was examined at the police-court—I did not say a word there about watching the prisoner', and seeing all this done, because I was not asked—I considered that portion of my evidence of importance, but Mr. Clare had given it—I took the prisoner from the post-office to the police-station, and the charge was entered of stealing the letter—I did not hear him say, "I did not steal it, I must have picked it up with my pocket-handkerchief" nor words to that effect—nothing of the kind—he did not deny stealing the letter in my hearing at any time, nor did he offer any excuse—he was not asked.

MR. CLERK. Q. Did he make any excuse as to how he got possession of the letter? A. No; Mr. Clare gave a full statement of all the details, and I answered such questions as were put to me.

MARGARET TRIPPLE . I am a widow, and work at Erith—on 24th July, my son William was living at New-street, Limehouse, and I made up a letter, directed it to him, and put sixpence in it—I posted it at Erith, about 8 o'clock on 23d July.

GUILTY .— Four Years' Penal Servitude.

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-675
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

Related Material

675. PETER HOLLING (34) , Stealing, whilst employed in the Postoffice, a post-letter, containing two pieces of gold coin, the property of Her Majesty's Postmaster-general.

MR. CLERK conducted the Prosecution.

MR. SLEIGH, for the prisoner, stated that he would withdraw his plea; upon,

which the prisoner having said, in the hearing of the Jury, "I am guilty," they found a verdict of

GUILTY .— Four Years' Penal Servitude.

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-676
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

Related Material

676. ANDREW TOWNSEND (23) , Stealing, whilst employed in the Post-office, two post-letters, one containing a half-sovereign, and the other a sixpence, the property of Her Majesty's Postmaster-general.

MR. CLERK conducted the Prosecution.

MR. LILLEY, for the prisoner, suggested a similar course to that taken in the last case; and the prisoner having admitted his guilt in the presence of the Jury they found a verdict of

GUILTY .— Four Years Penal Servitude.

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-677
VerdictGuilty > with recommendation
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

Related Material

677. JOHN SMITH (18) , Stealing, whilst employed in the Post-office, a post-letter, containing an order for the payment of 3l. 3s., the property of Her Majesty's Postmaster-general.

MR. CLERK conducted the Prosecution.

JOHN GARKINER . I am senior clerk in the General Post-office—the prisoner was a sorter and letter-carrier at the Peckham office, and had been engaged there about twelve months—I received instructions to make up a test letter, and on 16th July made up a letter to Mrs. Smith, Grove-villas, Camdengrove, Peckham, and placed in it two half-sovereigns—there was no Mrs. Smith at that address—I do not know whether I addressed it—I fastened it—on the morning of the 17th I gave that letter to Mr. Clare that he might post it, and in the afternoon I received information and went to the postoffice at Peckham—the prisoner was brought there by Bingham at half-past 2—I told him that a money-letter, addressed Mrs. Smith, Grove-villas, Camden-grove, Peckham, was missing, and asked him if he knew anything about it—he put his hand in a pouch which he had over his shoulder, and handed me the letter—I asked him how he accounted for the possession of it; he said, "I did not know I had it till I got out with my letters; I found it in the middle"—I said, "Did not you arrange your letters "for delivery before you left the office?"—he said, "I did"—I said, "This letter is not in your delivery; how did it get amongst your letters?"—he said, "I do not know, I did not put it there"—Bingham then took him in custody—he was searched at the office, and I saw the keys taken from his pocket—this letter was not in his delivery, and he should have given it to the proper letter-carrier, who delivers letters in Camden-road, or sorted it to him.

Cross-examined by MR. LILLEY. Q. Do you know the prisoner's age? A. No; but I believe him to be between eighteen or nineteen—there are, I think, nine sorters at Peckham—if by accident a letter, which does not belong to a postman's walk, is found in his parcel when he gets on his walk, it is not his duty to return it to the office; he should take it to the place to which it is addressed on his finishing his delivery.

WILLIS CLARE . I posted the letter on 17th July, addressed to Mrs. Smith, which I received from Mr. Gardiner—I did not go to the prisoner's lodgings with Bingham; we could not find them.

HENRY BINGHAM . From instructions I received, I watched the prisoner on his delivery on 17th August, and about half-past 2, when he had finished, I took him to the post-office at Peckham—I searched him by Mr. Gardiner's directions, and found these keys (produced) in his breeches pocket—he went with me to his lodging, at his father's, in John-street, Commercial-road, Peckham, and he and his father and mother took me up into his bedroom—I said, "Which is your box?" and he pointed it out,

and his mother also—I unlocked it with one of these keys, and found this purse (produced) containing 14l. in gold and a cheque on the City Bank for three guineas, drawn by Mr. Ford, and payable to 153 or bearer—I found this gold locket (produced) in the box—I asked him if he could give any account of the cheque being in his possession, but he gave no answer—his father also asked him, and he gave no answer.

Cross-examined. Q. Where was he in the act of delivering letters when you saw him? A. In the Park-road—I do not know where Camden-grove is—I am quite ignorant of that neighbourhood—he did not produce his key voluntarily; I took them from his pocket when I searched him—he was confused when I found the cheque and money, and also when I took him.

CHARLES FORD . I live at 6, Fluke-lane, City—on 20th June I drew this cheque on the City Bank for No. 153, or bearer, for 3l. 3s. and inclosed it in a letter, which I addressed, Henry William Looker, Esq., 24, Glengall-grove, Old Kent-road, which I fastened in the usual way with adhesive gum, and left it on my table to be posted by my charwoman, Mrs. Page.

Cross-examined. Q. Did you direct the envelope? A. Yes—the cheque was not crossed.

JANE PAGE . I am a charwoman employed by Mr. Ford—on 20th June, between 10 and 11 in the morning, I posted a letter at the post-office, Watling-street, addressed Mr. Looker, Glengall-grove, Old Kent-road—it was fastened with adhesive gum.

Cross-examined. Q. Do you occasionally post letters for Mr. Ford? A. Yes—at this particular season I post a good many—I recollect it because I was told that it was for Mr. Looker, who would be very glad of his money the same as I should—I was told that there was a cheque in it—I can read, and will swear positively that the letter was directed as I state—I had no other letter to post that morning—I did not go out upon any other errand at the same time—I do not know how soon afterwards I was spoken to about the letter, but I had to go to Bow-street on 25th July—Mr. Bingham spoke to me between the 20th and 25th—I was not spoken to about it till I saw him.

MR. CLERK. Q. Was your attention called to the letter by some one before you posted it? A. Yes, by Miss Ford the night before.

ARTHUR O'CONNOR . I am a sorter in the General Post-office—if a letter was posted at Watling-street between 10 and 11 in the morning, directed to the Old Kent-road, it would come to the chief office in due course by the 11 o'clock collection; it would then be sent in a bag to the South-eastern office—it would be despatched from the chief office at fifty-three minutes past 11—if it was addressed to Glengall-villas, Old Kent-road, it would be sent to Peckham, if it is in the country delivery of the south-eastern district.

Cross-examined. Q. Is the south-eastern office in High-street, Southwark? A. Yes; nearly opposite St. George's Church.

----CORBYN. I am assistant charge-taker at the post-office, Peckham—the prisoner has been employed there about twelve months—his delivery was Glengall-grove, and Park-road, and Trafalgar-row; they are in the Old Kent-road—Camden-road is not in his delivery; it belongs to another walk—I was on duty at the Peckham office on 20th June, and the prisoner was on duty there sorting letters—this is the attendance book; it is signed by the prisoner—I opened this bag when it arrived from the south-eastern office—a letter addressed to Glengall-grove would come from the south-eastern office to Peckham.

Cross-examined. Q. On that occasion were there eight or nine other persons in attendance? A. Eight more—they sort together, but every one.

has a separate box—the bags are opened upon a table—mistakes occasionally occur in sorting a letter into a different walk from what it ought to be, and it is corrected afterwards—I know Peckam—Camden-road runs from the further part of the Commercial-road into the high road—I do not know whether Grove-villas are at the other end—it is about half a mile from the commencement of Park-road to the end of Camden-grove; I cannot say exactly.

MR. CLERK. Q. In the due course of things, would this letter be sorted to the prisoner for delivery? A. Yes; and would be sorted by him—if some other letter carrier had found it by mistake among the other letters, it would be his duty to give it to the prisoner.

SARAH LOOKER . I am the wife of Henry William Looker, of Glengallgrove, Old Kent-road—he is ninety-three years of age, and has been confined to his bed for the last six months—I open all letters addressed to him—on 20th June I was expecting a letter containing a remittance from Mr. Ford; but it did not come, and on the 24th I called on Mr. Ford.

GUILTY.—Recommended to mercy by the Jury on account of his youth. — Four Years Penal Servitude.

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-678
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

Related Material

678. WILLIAM PEARCE (20) , Stealing, whilst employed in the Postoffice, a post-letter, containing a gilt chain, the property of her Majesty's Post-master-general.

MESSRS. CLERK and METCALPE conducted the Prosecution.

LOUISA MARNERS . I live at 29, St. John-street, Clerkenwell—on 27th July I inclosed a gilt chain in a parcel to Miss Marners, Honeydew, Foots Cray, Kent, S.E.—I put it into a box first, and put the box into this paper (produced) as I had not an envelope large enough—I sealed it and gave it to my daughter to post.

Cross-examined. Q. Was it registered? A. No; I do not think there was a stamp on it at the time I gave it to my daughter, for I did not know how much it would be.

LUCY LOUISA MARNERS . On 27th July I put a stamp on this letter and posted it at Mr. Cooper'.-, in Oxford-street, about 12 o'clock.

Cross-examined by MR. SMITH. Q. What did you put on it? A. A fourpenny stamp.

WILLIAM TEMPLE COOPER . The receiving office for the Post-office is at my house in Oxford-street—a letter posted there a minute before 12 o'clock would go to the western office at 12, and if a minute after 12, at 1 o'clock—it is stamped at the western office.

JOHN GLEESON . I am a messenger at the Western district office—on 27th July I made up a bag containing letters for the south-eastern office—it was despatched from the western-office at twenty-five minutes past 12—this letter bears the stamp of the western-office of 27th July—the-bag containing the letters would go to the east central district, and be forwarded from there to the south-eastern in the same bag—this letter would go with them.

JOHN BISLEY . I am a sorter at the south-eastern office—on 27th July I saw the mail bag from the western district office received at a few minutes after 1 o'clock—I did not receive it—this letter bill came with it—I did not see the bag when it arrived.

COURT. Q. I thought you said you did? A. I can answer that it was received in due course from this bill being brought to me to sign—it is signed by me—it came in its due course that day.

Cross-examined. Q. Do you know that it frequently happens that letters break open in their passage through the post? A. It does it is then our.

duty to take them and have them sealed, and the stamp of the office put, on signifying that they were found open and re-sealed.

MR. CLARK. Q. Have the edges of the letter given way? A. I should say not.

ELLEN MARNERS . I did not receive a letter in July from Miss Lucy Marners, containing a gilt chain—I expected it about the 20th.

HENRY BINGHAM . I am a constable attached to the post-office. On 27th July, at a little before 3 o'clock in the day, I apprehended a letter-carrier named Wright—I watched him as he was delivering letters on his walkstopped him in the Old Kent-road as he was going home, and took him to the South Eastern office—I afterwards went to his lodgings, 6, Charlotte-place, Bermondsey—his mother keeps a shop on the ground-floor, behind which there is a parlour—I got to the shop about half-past 3, and saw the prisoner in the back room in his official coat, blue, with a red collar—he suddenly left as I went into the shop, and I followed him up-stairs to his bed room on the first-floor front, and found him in the act of pulling off his coat—he put it on the bed—there was only one bed in the room—I had made no charge against the prisoner at that time—while I was searching the room, the prisoner got towards the door, by the stairs, and I saw that he was about leaving the room in his shirt sleeves—I told him not to go away—he said that he was just going down stairs, he would return in a moment—he went down but did not return—I remained in the bed room nearly half an hour, and then went down to the lower part of the house and made inquiries for the prisoner, but could not find him—I had not then searched his coat—I gave instructions to Smee, another constable, to search it, left the house, and went to the South Eastern office—the prisoner had not been back there—I then returned to the lodging with Smee, who examined the coat, and I saw this letter found in the pocket with some others which Smee has got.

Cross-examined. Q. Were the other letters unopened? A. Yes; they have since been delivered—I had told the prisoner I was there to search the room—I asked him whose drawer one was, and as soon as I began to search it he went down stairs—it was warm weather.

MR. CLERK. Q. Had you told him that Wright was in custody? A. I had not.

WILLIAM SMEE . I am a policeman attached to the post-office—on 27th July, in consequence of information, I went to the prisoner's lodgings, the second floor front room, and saw this coat (produced) on the bed—I found in the pocket of it these four letters, and this cover of a packet (produced) addressed to Miss Marners—it has the western post-stamp of 31st July—on 27th July I went to Richmond, found the prisoner at the police-station there, and brought him up to Bow-street—I asked him how it was that he absconded from his duty on Saturday last—he said, "There were so many things in the room, that I thought I should be implicated with Wright"—I asked him where he went to on Saturday night without his coat—he said that he took his official cape with him, went to Deptford, and bought a coat for a pound, and then went down to Richmond—he was shown the cover at the solicitor's office on 21st July, and said that he knew nothing about it.

Cross-examined. A. Did he say nothing about having received it from Wright? A. No; the other letters were upon the prisoner's walk—I have since delivered two of them, which ought to have been delivered that day.

THOMAS HARRISS . I am inspector of letter-carriers at the South Eastern office—the prisoner was a letter-carrier there—he was on duty sorting letters on 27th July—I have a book to prove it—he sorted letters up to twenty minutes past 1—George Biggs Wright was another letter-carrier in the same.

office—his district was Blackman-street—the prisoner's walk was Long-lane—the two walks join—a letter sorted to Locks Cray, Kent, should have been sorted to the Woolwich division, and would go in the Locks Cray bag—it was neither in the prisoner's delivery nor Wright's—it was a suburban letter and should not have gone to any letter deliverer, but it might have passed through the hands of any person sorting at the South Eastern office—this is the prisoner's coat, it is the number that he signed for—I have a book here with his signature in it—he never returned to the South Eastern office after he went out on his delivery—he had no leave of absence.

Cross-examined. Q. Suppose a letter came open while being sorted, would it be the duty of the person sorting, to hand it to the inspector? A. Yes; if it came undone after it came in band for delivery, my instructions would be to deliver it rather than detain it—I never had an instance of a letter being detained and brought back.

JOHN COLLINS (Police-sergeant, V 38). I am stationed at Mortlake—on 31st July, about 7 in the morning, I went with Carter to the prisoner's brother-in-law's, Gloucester Cottage, Mortlake—I saw the prisoner's sister, and said, "Is Pearce up?"—she said, "Do you wish to go up stairs?—I said "Yes"—after I had searched the bottom part of the house, I went up stairs and searched till I came to the back bed room door, which was locked—I had sent Carter round to the back, and I called him up to break the door open—when he came up I heard a window open, and therefore broke open the door and found the prisoner on the window in his trousers and shirt, in the act of coming in from the window—I said, I suppose you know what you are wanted for?"—he said, "I have nothing to fear, I have stolen nothing; what I have taken is from my mate, Wright"—on the way to the station he said, "I meant to have secreted myself there and heard the result of my mate's trial, and if he got off I would have given myself up."

Cross-examined. Q. Has Wright pleaded guilty? A. I have understood so—Mr. Harriss was not with me when the prisoner was taken.

GUILTY .— Four Years' Penal Servitude

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-679
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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679. GEORGE BIGGS WRIGHT (18) , Stealing, whilst employed in the Post-office, 2 post letters, containing money, the property of Her Majesty's Post-master-general; to which he

PLEADED GUILTY .— Four Years' Penal Servitude.

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-680
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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680. ALFRED CHAPMAN (20) , Stealing, whilst employed in the Post-office, a post letter containing three 51. notes, and a post-office order for the payment of 1l. 8s. 3d., the property of Her Majesty's Post-master-general; to which he

PLEADED GUILTY .— Four Years' Penal Servitude

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-681
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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681. OWEN CALLAHAN (30) , Feloniously killing and slaying Thomas Lexton.

MR. MCDONNELL conducted the Prosecution.

MARY LEXTON . I am the widow of the deceased Thomas Lexton—he was a labourer, and fifty-four years of age—on Monday, 20th May, I returned home from my work between 10 and 11 o'clock, and found him in bed bleeding right down the fingers, and down the bosom of his shirt—his health before that was very good indeed—he never complained.

Cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH. Q. How long have you been married to him? A. Fourteen years—he was never ill for an hour the whole of that time—he has never suffered from any accident or blow that I know of—this was only his finger which was cut—the fourth finger of the left-hand—it appeared as if it had been broken by glass—it happened on Whit-Monday, and last Sunday six weeks he was buried—I am no scholar.

WILLIAM WILLIS . I am house-surgeon of Middlesex Hospital—the deceased was admitted there as an in-door patient on 4th June—I found the index finger of the left-hand very much enlarged, and a number of cuts on it—it smelt very horribly—the bones were dead—there were several sores which were discharging very unhealthy and fetid matter, and those communicated with the bones that were dead below—he had a dyspeptic appearance—his tongue was bad, and his digestion was bad—we tried to bring his system into a better state if possible before amputating his finger, therefore the operation was not performed immediately—his general health did not improve after the removal—the symptoms which existed to some extent before, increased, which made me and the other surgeon consider that abscesses were being formed in different parts of the body, which I after-wards found to be the case—he died on 19th June, and I made a postmortem examination—I found a large collection of matter and pus in the lungs and liver, with the structure of the lungs and liver by them in a state of mortification—there was also a collection of pus in the joint of the thumb of the left-hand—it was a very unhealthy sore, buried under the thumb and over the ball of it—the injury to the hand must have been inflicted some-time before I saw him, because the bones were dead—there must have been some violence—a simple cut would not be at all likely to be followed by such a severe injury—I believe he had this collection of matter in his lungs and liver consequent upon the injury to his hand—there were abscesses in the lungs and liver, that was the immediate cause of death.

Cross-examined. Q. I understand you to say that the collection of pus in the lungs was consequent upon the wound in the Land, or that it may have been? A. I mean to say that, not having received the wound in the hand, he would not have had that collection of pus—I say that the collection of pus did not arise from any bodily disorder, it was not the result of mortified action, having nothing to do with the hand—collections of pus do exist in the lungs quite irrespective of any injury, but you can trace their origin—if there is ulceration of the lungs the pus is formed first—these abscesses were cists filled with pus and not discharged—it is the same in cases of consumption, but not in the same form—consumption does not take place in the liver—there was a large abscess in the liver—in cases of dysentery, abscesses form in the liver wholly irrespective of any external injury—any external injury would produce collections of pus in the liver, lungs, and brain—we can trace their causes—I do not seriously mean to tell you that I can always trace the origin of a secretion of pus in the human system—the bone of the finger was dead—exfoliation is when a part of a bone dies; this bone was entirely dead—I believe the injury to have been inflicted a fortnight before he came in—a disease of the bone is not necessarily consequent upon an external injury—I mean to say that the bone would be not merely in an exfoliated state, but in a perfectly dead state, in one fortnight after the injury to the flesh—in a large number of cases such a wound would be inflicted without any disease following upon it—I do not consider that the man must have been labouring under disease for some time, and have been in a very bad habit of body prior to the injury; but these collections of matter in the lungs and liver took place subsequently—I do not consider that the bone was in a diseased state previous to the infliction of the wound—I cannot answer such a question—I cannot say what condition it was in previously, but the injury would account for it—I never heard of a case where a finger became dead of itself without any injury—I see no reason for the bone having been in a diseased state for more than a fortnight previous to my seeing the man—I

I saw nothing in the symptoms to enable me to say that the bone had not been diseased for more than a fortnight, but the thing is perfectly unique—I never heard of a bone dying without a cause—a bone of the leg might die but bones of the finger do not—I do not know what is called "Pott's mottification"—I have frequently heard of the celebrated Dr. Potts, who lived in the last century—I know he described a kind of gangrene which begins in the toes, and gradually involves the bones, but it does not begin in the bones first—gangrene is not a secretion of pus—I know a disease where the falanges or bones of the toes fall off, but both the flesh and the bones die—I mean to pledge myself that the disease commences in the flesh first and not in the bone—I never saw it originate in the bone and become communicated to the flesh—as a man of science I never heard of it and do not know it.

MR. MECDONNELL. Q. Were you able, from having seen the man, to say whether he was a healthy subject or not? A. I should not, call him a healthy subject, because there were indications of disease in the kidneys; but I saw nothing in the condition of the organs to prevent his living for years.

ELIZABETH PITCHLEY . The deceased was my brother—on Whit-Monday, 20th May, between 5 and 6, I entered his yard, my nephew was there—the prisoner, who is the landlord, afterwards came into the room and said he would have no music played there—my nephew had a fiddle and played once—my brother after that brought some porter, and the landlord again came into the room—my brother reached out his glass for a glass of porter, and Callahan took the poker and gave him a blow over the left arm and finger with it, and across the glass of beer—his fingers were round the glass—the glass was broken and the beer spilt—Lexton turned, seized Callahan with his right hand, and knocked him down—my brother's hand bled—the prisoner took the poker from this arm and gave a blow with it—they were none of them drunk.

JOHN HAYES . On Monday night, 20th May, I went to my uncle's and took a female with me—I played some music there—my uncle asked me to play a tune and I began, and the prisoner, who was outside the door, came to the door and said that he would allow no music to be played in the room—my uncle said that it was only his nephew, and when I had finished I should play no more—the prisoner would not have it, and he went away and went up stairs—after I had finished the tune my uncle fetched a pot of beer—he filled a glass and reached it to Callahan, who immediately drew a poker from behind him, knocked the glass out of my uncle's hand and broke it—his hand was cut by the poker and began to bleed—the glass was in his left hand, and the jug in the other.

MARY MACAULAY . On 20th May I lived in the same house as the prisoner—on Whit-Monday evening I was standing at the street door and heard some words, but took no notice—the prisoner then went up stairs and I went up after him and met him on the stairs with a poker in his hand.

WILLIAM HENDRY (Policeman, D 177). I took the prisoner on 17th July—the beadle told him the charge in my presence—he said, "Very well, I will come with you."

Cross-examined. Q. Did not he say that it was an accident, and he was very sorry it had occurred? A. No.

The prisoner received a good character.


THIRD COURT—Thursday, August 22d, 1861.


Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-682
VerdictGuilty > unknown; Guilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment; Imprisonment

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682. JANE JONES (22), and ELIZABETH SMART (32) , Stealing a purse and 2l. 10s. in money, the property of Maria Hennell, from her person.

MR. TINDAL ATKINSON conducted the Prosecution.

MARIA HINNEL . I am single, and reside at 124, Marylebone-road—on Saturday afternoon, 6th July, about half-past 2 o'clock, I got into one of the General Omnibus Company's omnibuses at the Circus—there were other persons then in the omnibus, but I do not recollect the number—I was sitting second from the door—there was one person next the door, but I was more than half-way up, next to the brass rod—there was a distance between me and the person sitting next the door—when we arrived at Tottenham Court-road, the two prisoners got in—Jones got in first and sat between me and the woman, next to the door—there were three in the compartment and she was the centre one, and was on my right hand—when I got in I had in my right hand pocket my purse, handkerchief, and a small button-hook—inside the purse was a smaller red purse—inside that, were two sovereigns, and in the larger one ten shillings' worth of silver—I had last seen it about 12 o'clock—I had been nowhere to spend any money—Smart sat next the door on the opposite side—she had the child with her that she has to-day, and her purse and parasol in her hand—she did not sit exactly opposite me—I was near the centre, and she was on the opposite side next the door—she was nearer to Jones than to me—as we went to Holborn-hill, I saw her put the parasol on Jones' knee—it remained there some time—as we were going down Holborn-hill I felt Jones draw her hand out of my pocket—I put my hand in to see what I had lost and found my purse was gone—I then said to the conductor in her presence, "Stop, conductor, this woman has put her hand in my pocket and taken my purse"—she made some sort of denial; I cannot recollect the exact words—the omnibus stopped before we got to the bottom of the hill—I do not recollect whether the windows were open or shut—I did not see any one get out—the conductor then called a policeman, and he asked me if I gave the woman in charge—I did so, for robbing me of my purse—I then saw Smart two or three yards from the omnibus, going away—I said to the policeman, "That woman is her friend, I think you ought to take her too"—then the conductor turned and said she had not paid her fare—I did not see what policeman came up to take her, but she was taken—she was not more than three yards from the omnibus when she was taken—there were persons round her, both men and women—there was very quickly a crowd—Jones was taken in custody in the omnibus—she did not get out till I did.

COURT. Q. Did you see Smart take her parasol off Jones' lap? A. Yes; when her baby was quiet—she had taken it off before I felt anything in my pocket.

Cross-examined by MR. KEMP. Q. On which side of the omnibus were you sitting? A. On the left hand side as you enter—12 o'clock was the last time I actually saw my purse—that was at a house in Cavendish-square, not a shop—I had looked inside, so that I knew exactly what was inside it—the outside purse was an ordinary leather purse with an elastic band round—there were other persons in the omnibus between Tottenham Court-road and where the prisoners got out—nobody got out between Regent's-circus and the bottom of Holborn-hill—when Smart got in a man sitting next the door got up on the top of the omnibus—that was at Tottenham Court-road—the man was on the right hand side as you enter—I do not know whether he was on the top of the omnibus when I got out—when the

omnibus stopped at Holborn-hill I did not see whether any one besides Smart got out—I got out; I did not continue my journey—I was goining beyond the place at which I got out—I do not think the omnibus went on three or four paces when Smart got out; I should not be able to say—my pocket is outside my dress—there was a pocket handkerchief in it—the purse was at the bottom of my pocket—I did not lose my handkerchief nor my button hook—there was nothing gone but my purse.

EDWARD WHITFORD . I am one of the General Omnibus Company's conductors—I was conducting this omnibus on July 6th, when the prosecutrix got in—the two prisoners got in at the corner of Tottenham Court-road—I think there were eight or nine other people then in the omnibus—when we got to Holborn-hill, I got down and put the skid on as usual to go down the hill, when I got up again the prosecutrix said, "I have had my pocket picked during the time I have been in your omnibus, I felt this lady's hand leave my pocket," pointing to Jones, who was sitting next to her on her right hand side—I called a police-officer and gave her into custody—I hung my skid up and took money from a gentleman that got down outside—during that time the door was opened and Smart got out—she had not paid me—there were people round her when the policeman was there—she was then about three or four yards off the omnibus—I did not hear Smart say anything about Jones—she said at the station-house, that she did not know her, and when given in custody she said she knew nothing of Jones.

Cross-examined. Q. How many people were there in the omnibus when this occurrence took place? A. I should say nine or ten; I do not know exactly—a gentleman got down from the roof between Tottenham Court-road and Holborn-hill—Smart only got out when the omnibus stopped at Holborn-hill—Jones did not get out—she was in custody.

COURT, Q. Did you call Smart back to pay her fare? A. Yes; she had her fare in her hand to give me; I took it, and she was about going away when the prosecutrix said that she got in at the same time as Jones—it is a twopenny fare from Tottenham Court-road to Holborn-hill.

THOMAS SORRILL JACKSON (City-policeman, 276). I was called, on the 6th July, to this omnibus on Holborn-hill—the door was open when I came up—Smart had just got out—Jones was inside—the prosecutrix said that she had lost her purse, and that Jones had taken it, that she felt her draw her hand out of her pocket, and therefore she should give her in charge for stealing her purse out of her pocket—I took Jones—when they got to the station-house they said they did not know each other, and never saw one another in their life before—Bailey took Smart—they were asked for their addresses separately, and both gave the same address—one was taken away to another part—they were both together when they denied knowledge of each other, and separate when they gave their addresses—they gave their address, 6, Great Cambridge-street, Hackney-road.

WILLIAM JAMES BAILEY (City-policeman, 89). I took Smart—she appeared very much agitated, and knowing that Jackson had Jones in the omnibus I asked Smart if she had not forgotten to pay her fare—I did that for the purpose of getting her back to the omnibus—she said she had forgotten to do so, and would pay it—going back to the omnibus, somebody said, in the presence of all, that they had both got into the omnibus together—I heard them give their addresses, they were given quite separately.

Cross-examined. Q. She had the fare in her hand, had she not? A. She had a purse in her hand—I do not know whether she had her fare in her hand.

SUSAN MARSHALL . I am searcher at the Smithfield station-house—I searched Jones, and found on her four shillings in silver, and some coppers—I searched Smart, and found on her a sovereign, half-sovereign, eighteen shillings in silver, and fourpence in copper.

DANIEL CARR . I live at 6, Great Cambridge-street, Hackney-road, and have lived there five and a half years—I never saw the prisoners in that neighbourhood, or anywhere—I am well acquainted with the neighbourhood.

Cross-examined. Q. Do you know Cambridge-place? A. No; there is Little Cambridge-street—mine is Great Cambridge-street.

JONES— GUILTY .†— Confined Twelve Months.

SMART— GUILTY .*†— Confined Eighteen Months.

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-683
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude; Imprisonment

Related Material

683. WILLIAM THOMPSON (23), and JOHN THOMPSON (17) , Burglariously breaking and entering the dwelling-house of George Brunswick, and stealing therein 2 coats, value 3l., 1 comb, value 1s., the property of George Brunswick; and 1 watch, value 10l. and other articles, the property of Myrthyl Brunswick.

MESSRS. SLEIGH and F. H. LEWIS conducted the Prosecution.

MYRTHYL BRUNSWICK . I am in partnership with my brother as cabinet-makers, 26, Newman-street, Oxford-street—on Friday evening, 5th July, I locked up the house, the entrance to the kitchen and so forth, between a quarter past 10 and a quarter to 11—I slept on the premises—I went to bed about that time—the next morning I examined the premises about 7 or half-past—I had not been disturbed in the night—I found the house had been broken into through the kitchen; the window was open and the shutter also pushed open, and they had broken open the kitchen door, which was locked—the window-sash was thrown up—it was not fastened the night before, but it was down—the kitchen door that leads into the house was looked the night before, but in the morning I found it broken open—the shorter prisoner of the two had been in my service two months or six weeks previous to the robbery—I do not know whether his name is John or William Thompson—that, is not the name I knew him by—he was in my service by the name of Lewis—he was acquainted with the lower part of the house—I took him twice into my service—I dare say altogether he was in my service twelve months, or perhaps more; I cannot say exactly—we pay our workmen on a Saturday—we have the money in the house on Saturday afternoon for that purpose—sometimes we have it on the Friday, but not often—our house is in Marylebone parish—I reside there myself.

PATRICK BYRNE . I reside at 2, George-street, Bloomsbury, and am a lodging-house keeper—the prisoner William, slept there for about seven or eight nights—the prisoner John has been there about five weeks, but he has been in that street about eight or nine weeks—the last night that William Thompson slept there, was the Monday night before he was taken in custody—the prisoner John has lodged in my house five or six weeks, on and off—the two slept in one room, went out together, and came home together—I received this duplicate (produced) from the prisoner John, on Tuesday morning, 9th July, and lent him sixpence on it, and he asked me if I would buy another which he had of a coat in pawn, for 15s., and the ticket of a gold watch and chain, in pawn, for 2l.—he did not produce those duplicates to me; I have not seen them.

John Thompson. In his first statement, he says that I only left' that ticket with him to mind. Witness. No; I said I received it from you on the Tuesday morning, and I was asked no further questions.

ALEXANDER HENNESSY (Policeman, E 84). I know the prosecutor's house—on the evening of 5th July, I first saw William Thompson, about ten minutes past 10 o'clock—I did not speak to him then—I saw him near a passage that runs from Newman-street to Upper Rathbone-place—I afterwards saw him in Newman-street at the other end of the passage, about twenty minutes past 10—I stood and looked at him for a second, and said, "You have a waiting job on to night"—he said, "I don't know what you mean, I don't understand you"—I said, "I spoke plain enough for you to understand; you have a waiting job on to-night"—he said, "Oh! it is not a late hour"—I said, "Whether it is a late hour or not I shall not have you about here, I shall see you away"—I followed him through two or three streets—he had been pointed out to me before—I am sure he is the man I saw him no more that night—I followed him till I saw another constable, and then I left him.

JOSEPH LAMBERT (Policeman, E 68). I searched William Thompson on the 24th, and found on him this coat (produced)—he was in custody at High-street Marylebone, on another charge—I know him under the name of John Shepherd—that is his right name—I received from Mr. Byrne the duplicate that has been produced—it is for a brooch—the prisoners were taken in custody on the 10th.

William Thompson. Shepherd is not my name; William Thompson is my proper name. Witness. I know that his name is Shepherd—I have known him and his mother for several years.

THOMAS TYRRELL . I am a pawnbroker in Munster-square—I produced a gold watch and chain pledged with me on Saturday, 6th July, for 2l., in the name of John Shepherd; I do not know by whom.

THOMAS ALLWORTHY . I. am assistant to Mr. Lee, pawnbroker, St. Mary's street, Hampstead-road—I produce a cameo brooch, pledged on 6th July, by a young man in the name of John Shepherd—I believe the prisoner William Thompson to be the person, but I could not swear positively—I gave a ticket to the person by whom it was pledged—this is the duplicate.

THOMAS DRY . I am assistant to Mr. Harrison of Wardour-street, pawn-broker—I produce a coat pledged in the name of John Thompson, on 6th July, for 15s.—I gave a ticket—I do not know the person.

JOSEPH JOSEPHS , I live at 37, Crown-street, Soho, and carry on the business of a pawnbroker—I purchased this opera-glass (produced) on 6th July, from the prisoner John Thompson for 3s.

MYRTHYL BRUNSWICK (re-examined). This watch, opera-glass, and cameo brooch belong to me—they were safe on the night of 5th July when I went to bed, and I missed them next morning.

GEORGE BRUNSWICK . This coat and comb are mine—I had a comb like that, and I missed it—I lost two coats.

William Thompson. Q. What mark have you got on the comb that you can swear to it by? A. There is no particular mark—there is a little mark on one of the teeth.

COURT. Q. Do you know it by that? A. Yes; it is not a natural mark; it has broken a little piece off one of the teeth in using it—I have had it two years, and used it myself—it is my pocket comb—I have no doubt about it being my property—I was not asked the question before the Magistrate.

William Thompson's Defence. All I have got to say is, that we are not brothers.


William Thompson was further charged with having been before convicted.

WILLIAM HEPHER (Policeman, E 99). I produce a certificate (Read:.

"Middlesex Sessions, Westminster, 11th December, 1856.—Robert William Shepherd, convicted, on his own confession, of stealing 4481bs. of lead fixed to a building, having been previously convicted of felony.—Four Years' Penal Servitude")—I was present at that trial—William Thompson is the person called Shepherd in that certificate.

WILLIAM THOMPSON—GUILTY.**— Six years' Penal Servitude.

JOHN THOMPSON*— Confined Eighteen Months.

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-684
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty; Guilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude; Imprisonment > penal servitude

Related Material

684. WILLIAM JONES (18), THOMAS BUNTER (21), CHARLES ALBERT SINCLAIR (25) , Burglariously breaking and entering the dwelling-house of Henry Barnes, and stealing therein 1 coat, 1 macintosh, and 1 handkerchief, his property, to which.

JONES— PLEADED GUILTY .*†— Six Years' Penal Servitude.

MR. COOPER conducted the Prosecution.

HENRY BARNES (Policeman, C 197). I was occupying a house of which I was in charge, 4, St. Martin's-court—on the night of the 18th, I had a uniform coat and macintosh hanging up in the kitchen, which was on the first floor, on a row of pegs behind the door, and my hat was also there—there were also a silk handkerchief, a pair of Wellington boots, and a coat of my son's—his coat was on a bench in the passage, the boots were in the kitchen, and the silk handkerchief in my uniform coat pocket—I went to bed at about half-past 9 o'clock that night—I was called up about half-past 1 by a police-constable—I did not observe any marks of violence upon coming down—I found the kitchen window open, and my uniform hat in the middle of the kitchen—my uniform coat and macintosh, and my son's boots and some other things, were gone—the window was shut when I went to bed—the constable Gordon had got my uniform coat on his arm when be called me, but I have never seen the other things since—this (produced) is my uniform coat.

Cross-examined by MR. DICKIE (for Bunter). Q. How many things did you lose altogether? A. The coat, in the pocket of which was a silk handkerchief, a pocket-book, and a bunch of keys, also a macintosh, and my boy's coat and Wellington boots—I have recovered this coat, and the pocket-book, and keys—they were in the coat pocket—I cannot speak to any of the prisoners—I know them—I did not see them about my house at all—there is no fastening to the window—I am sure it was not up a bit—it is the room in which we live, and we always sit with the window down—we do not have it open—I will swear it was down that night—my son was the last person in the room—the door was only on the single latch—my son was the last person that shut the door that evening—I went to bed at half-past 9—I was quite sober—I generally go to bed early—the value of all the things I lost I put down at about 4l.

Cross-examined by MR. KEMP (for Sinclair). Q. Were you the last person who went to bed? A. No; my son—my wife followed me to bed, about a quarter of an hour or twenty minutes before my son came in—I heard him come in directly the clock struck 10—it had struck 9 before I went to bed; I am sure it was half-past 9—I found out directly I came into the kitchen that I had lost the macintosh—it had two pockets and a small pocket, in which was a tobacco-pouch and box of fusees—the colour of it was a very dark green, nearly getting to a black—there was nothing peculiar about it that I am aware of—it was not so dark as your gown—the material was not like that—I described it to the policemen, Gordon and Holmes—I do not think they wanted much of a description, for they have seen it on.

me—I have not found it—I was not present when Sinclair was taken into custody.

MR. COOPER. Q. I believe the kitchen-window you speak of is on the first-floor? A. It looks on to the yards of the houses in St. Martin's-lane-a wall separates the next house from ours; it is impossible to stand on that wall and lift the window, But one could stand on the wall and another get on his back, and so do it very easily indeed.

MR. KEMP. Q. Is that window at the front or back of the house? A. At the back.

EDWARD BARNES . I am the son of the last witness, and lodge with my father—on the night of the 18th I came home about 10 o'clock—I was the last in the house, and the last up in the house—I closed the door upon going in—it closes with a lock that falls—after closing it I tried it, and it was fast—I went into the kitchen—the kitchen-window was closed—after that I went to bed—in the morning I was awoke by my father—I observed the kitchen-window then—it was up to the top—I missed my boots, and afterwards my coat.

Cross-examined by MR. DICKIE. Q. Have you ever been asked about this kitchen window before? A. No—I paid particular attention to it, and saw it was not open—I did not always look at the window of a night, but I should have noticed it if it had only been open an inch—I did not especially direct my attention, on that night, to the kitchen window to see if it was fastened.

WILLIAM GORDON (Policeman, A 336). At half-post 1 on the morning of the 19th, I was passing through St. Martin's-court—on passing No. 4, I saw the prisoners leave that house—I had known them very well indeed for some time—I am quite sure I saw them leave—I tried to stop them—Jones and Bunter ran one way, and Sinclair the other—I followed Jones and Bunter through the court into Cranbourne-street, and turned round Rupert-street, where Jones was stopped by a policeman—Bunter was stopped round the corner—I saw Jones carrying this coat on his arm on this morning, and in the chase I saw him throw it down in Cranbourne-street—when I came back two gentlemen were taking care of it for me—I searched Jones at the station, and found a broken candle and some lucifer-matches in his pocket; and on the stairs of No. 4, St. Martin's-court I found some matches which correspond; common matches—when before the Magistrate I did not mention Sinclair's name—I said Bunter, Jones, and another—I did not know his name—I knew him.

Cross-examined by MR. DICKIE. Q. What became of the boots and other things? A. I do not know—I never saw the boots at all since, nor any of the other things—I did not see them in the hands of the prisoners—I was within two yards of Jones when he was taken—Bunter, when taken, was some streets off—I was not present when he was taken—he gave his proper address—I have known him about four years—I have known him to be living with Mr. Moses, in Tower-street, a journeyman butcher—he has not been convicted before to my knowledge—when we took them to the station-house, Jones said, "All right, we took the coat;" and Bunter said, "I have never been near the house at all.".

Cross-examined by MR. KEMP. Q. How far were you from the house when you first saw the prisoners? A. I should think about seven yards when they came outside—I was in the court—I examined the door afterwards—I did not find it closed—it was open when we came back to it—I did not know Sinclair by name—I knew him by sight perfectly well—I gave a description of him to Ackrill about 11 or 12 o'clock, I should say, the

next morning—I swear that I did not see Sinclair between that time and when he was taken in custody—I know Dudley-street very well—I did not see him there—I did not know where he lived then—I knew that he lived somewhere in Dudley-street, but I did not know the number—I did not go there to try and find him—I went to the neighbourhood of Dudley-street—Sinclair was taken in custody, the next night, by Ackrill, at 12 o'clock or so—I was called upon to identify him at the station—there were four others with him—I did not know every one of those four—I knew one of the policemen that was there—he was not one that was put with the prisoner when I was called on to pick out the man—he had nothing to do with the identity—I did not know the four that were with him.

MR. COOPER. Q. Are you sure Sinclair is the man you saw? A. Yes—the house is in the parish of St. Martin's-in-the-Fields.

MR. KEMP called

WILLIAM JONES (the prisoner). I have pleaded guilty to this robbery—I was there with certain companions—Sinclair was not one of them, nor Bunter—I know Sinclair by sight, but never spoke to him.

Cross-examined by MR. COOPER. Q. How many times have you been in custody? A. Twice before—neither of them was for burglary—one was for uttering counterfeit coin, the other was for taking instruments out of a carriage—I have two other charges against me this time, for breaking into the house of Mr. Collins, and for breaking into the house of Mr. Roberts.

MR. DICKIE Q. Did you tell any of the policemen, at the police-station that these men were not connected with you in this burglary? A. When I was at the station I called Mr. Holmes on one side, and told him that these were not the men that were with me in these three burglaries.

MR. DICKIE to WILLIAM GORDON. Q. Did you search Bunter's house? A. I searched his mother's lodging—I do not know whether he lives there—I found nothing relating to the charge.

GUILTY .*†— Four Years' Penal Servitude Each

THE COURT directed a reward of 3l. to be paid to the policeman Gordon..

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-685
VerdictGuilty > with recommendation

Related Material

685. ADOLPHE CHAINE (19) , Burglariously breaking and entering the dwelling-house of David Gardiner Berry, and stealing therein 1 bag and 9l. in money, his property.

MR. HORRY conducted the Prosecution.

ELIZA WOOLDRIDGE . I am servant to Mr. Berry, of 96, Great Russell-street, Bloomsbury—my master is an engraver—the prisoner is an apprentice in his house—he lodges out of the house—about three weeks ago, on a Thursday, he left to go to his band practice, at 7 o'clock in the evening—he came back at half-past 10 the same night—I do not know how far away his lodgings were—he said he had come back for a music case—he went and took it—he said when he came in that there were suspicious looking characters outside the door, two on the step of the door—I had at that time fastened all the outer doors, except the front door which led into the street—I fastened the inner door, leading from the kitchen to the workshop", after the prisoner was gone—the workshop is at the back of the house—he went directly he had got his case—he did not say, as he was leaving the house, where he was going—I am quite sure of that—that was about half-past 10 o'clock—he went away, and I went to bed—when I came down in the morning, about half-past 7 o'clock, I went into the parlour—I felt a draught in the room as I opened the door—I am quite sure I had seen the window shut the night before—the draught made me look into the room—

it was the back parlour—there was a chest of drawers there, with three of the drawers open—they were shut the night before—I called Mrs. Berry—the window was open about half way, enough to let any one in—I went into the room with Mrs. Berry—I found the desk had been broken open—I went to the street door, the chain of which I had fastened—the chain was off the door—the prisoner said to me the night before, that one door was bolted and the other not—that was after he had been down to see if the doors were fastened—he said to me, "I have been down to see if the doors were all right, one of the bolts is bolted and the other is not"—he said that he had made them both fast—I did not see whether the door was bolted or not—I did not go to the door—he was speaking of the front area door, leading from the area into the kitchen.

MARGARET GARDINER BERRY . I reside with my son, David Gardiner Berry, at 96, Great Russell-street—on the night of 25th July, about half-past 10 o'clock, the prisoner came down to where I was sitting and said that there were suspicious characters at the door—I asked him to go downstairs and look and see that the lower doors were fastened-my son was not at home—I heard the prisoner go downstairs and come up again—he spoke to Eliza Wooldridge in the passage, and then I heard him go out at the street door—I opened the door to him when he came in at half-past 10, and he said that he had come for a music case that he had forgotten—the next morning Wooldridge called me down—I went into the parlour and the desk was broken open and three drawers were open—I did not know what was there.

GEORGE SMITH . I live at 4A, Minton-street, New North-road, and am an apprentice to Mr. Berry, the prosecutor—on the night of 25th July, I fastened the bolts of the back area door about 9 o'clock—I was the last of the workmen in the house—the other workmen and apprentices were gone.

ALEXANDER AITKIN . I reside at 36, Roxburgh-terrace, Haverstock-hill, and am an engraver in the employ of Mr. Berry—on the afternoon of 25th July, I placed a bag of gold, about nine pounds' worth, in the desk in the back parlour of his house—I saw the desk on the morning afterwards; it was open—it was pointed out to me—I had locked it and taken the key—I went into the parlour and examined the desk—I found it had been broken open—I immediately missed the bag and the gold I had put there—there was a considerable amount of property in the desk untouched, medals and coins of different sorts, and money also, which was untouched.

DAVID GARDINER BERRY . I am an engraver, and live at 96, Great Russell-street—the prisoner is my apprentice—on 27th July I was in Scotland, and received a letter—I came to town immediately, on 28th—I saw the desk had been broken open—the money in it was mine—the bag of gold spoken of was mine—I had left it to pay the wages while I was absent—from inquiries I made, I spoke to the prisoner on Sunday, the 28th, the day on which I arrived—I went to the prisoner's lodging—he knew what I had come about—he had been communicated with before—I said, Do you suspect any one?" and he said, "No"—I then went away—on 14th August I again went there in consequence of something I had heard—I said, "Adolphe, you have been spending more money than you can have come honestly by"—he said he had received some money from his relations in Paris, from his mother—I found that he had been spending sovereigns—I did not say anything about sovereigns at that time—I asked him to show me the letter in which the money had come—he could not do so—he referred me to his brother; his brother could not find any letter—I did not get any such letter—I spoke to him again that same evening—I told him it was

a falsehood about receiving money from Paris—he then said, "I will tell the truth, I picked up a bag of money in the garden the morning after the robbery, when the police were looking over the premises"—I asked him if any one saw him pick up the money—he said, "No"—I then said, "Adolphe, you have robbed me"—he cried and said, "I did do so"—I said that it did not matter what he said, it would not influence me in any proceedings I might take afterwards—I said that because he was making a confession about it—I said, "It was very ungrateful of you to rob me"—he said "It is so, and I deserve to be punished for it"—he said that he went downstairs, unfastened the doors, went outside into the street, waited till they were all in bed and the lights out, and then went over the area railings and went in at the door that he had left unfastened—I do not recollect that he said anything after that relating to it—no allusion was made to the drawers—we had spoken about that before, about the robbery—he said he had taken 4l. or 5l. out of the bag, and thrown the bag and the rest of the money away in Tottenham-court-road.

COURT. Q. Was the conversation you had with him before you gave him in custody? A. Yes; on the evening before I gave him in custody.

JOSEPH LAMBERT (Policeman, E 68). On the morning of 26th July I was called to Mr. Berry's house—I found footmarks on the area railings where some one had got over; it had been raining in the night—I passed through the area door and came to the first door leading from the kitchen into the passage—it fastens on the inside with a bolt top and bottom—the second door is fastened inside with an iron bar that goes across it; that is between the kitchen and the passage—I found that, by putting a knife or something through the crevices of the door I could unfasten it and let down the iron bar—I examined the desk and found it had been broken open—I compared this instrument (produced) belonging to Mr. Berry, which I found on the floor, with the marks on the drawers, and they corresponded—the prisoner was given into my charge on the Wednesday evening—I told him he was charged with breaking into his master's house, and robbing him of 9l. in gold—he said he had done so, and was very sorry for it; that he had taken four out of the bag, and had thrown the rest of the money and the bag away.

Prisoner's Defence. On this night I went back for the case, and when I came out again there were suspicious characters outside the door, and when I came out I met a man that I thought was a friend of mine. He said, "Adolphe, where are you going?" I said, "Home." He said he was waiting for me. He asked me to go a little way with him and I did so, to a public-house; when I left him he asked me whether I wanted any money. I said, "Yes," and he lent me some; that is how I came by the money which I had. Afterwards he said he would come next morning. He had come once or twice before to see me at my master's house, and he has sometimes asked me whether my master was out of town, and I said, "No." He asked at this time, and I said, "Yes," and from that time I have never seen him since. My master has been very kind to me, and it is not likely I should do such a thing.

COURT to DAVID GARDINER BERRY. Q. How long has he been your apprentice? A. Over four years, I think—he is about nineteen years old I think—it is only the last six months that he has lodged out of the house—I do not pay for his lodging; I give him wages—I always considered him a very honest youth—I never found anything wrong with him—I never heard any statement made by him like the one he has made to-day; it is the first time I have heard about that other man.

The prisoner received a good character


Strongly recommended to mercy by the jury and prosecutor on account of his previous good character.— Confined Nine Months

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-686
VerdictGuilty > unknown

Related Material

686. ANDREA CONTI (39) , Stealing 6l. in money, 1 breast pin, value 30s., 1 watch, value 4l., 1 pistol, value 2l. 17s., and 2 razors, value 10s., the property of Nicola Maggi, his master.

The evidence was interpreted to the prisoner

MR. MOSELEY conducted the Prosecution

NICOLA MAGGI . I am an hotel keeper, in Annette-street, Minories, in the City of London—the prisoner has been in my employment—he was employed in the kitchen to clean knives—he left me without any notice on the 13th, I think; I cannot remember the date, it was two Saturdays ago—when he left me my cash-box was in his bedroom on the table—it had been taken from my drawers in the parlour—I had left the key in the drawers, by mistake—the box was broken open and the money gone, and a gold watch and key were gone—I think there had been about 6l. 5s. or 6l. 10s., I cannot tell exactly—there was also a gold pin, a revolver, and some razors in the drawers—I did not find them any more—I subsequently received this letter (produced) from the prisoner—I have seen him write—I cannot say whether it is his writing—I have seen him writing, but I never looked particularly—I believe it to be his writing because it is the same as his talking; it is bad Italian—I saw him the night he was arrested, and when I went to take him he ran away.

GIOVANNI CASTELLI . I am a tailor, and reside at Aldgate-street, City—on last Monday fortnight, about 12 o'clock, I was at Mr. Maggi's house—I saw the prisoner there—he said to me, "Don't drink too much water, perhaps it will make you ill"—he spoke Italian—he said, "That vagabond, Mr. Maggi, he owes me 5l.; I can prove that; I have here a letter written, if he don't pay me 5l. I will shoot him with a pistol that I took from him"—he showed me the letter—I have seen it since—it was the one I saw at the Mansion-house—he said, "I will send this letter at 4 o'clock, and at 12 o'clock at night I will go to Mr. Maggi for the answer"—he said he would send one letter to Mr. Maggi and one to the cook—I was at Maggi's when he said that.

PIETRO CAPPONI (through an interpreter). I live at 3, Neptune-street, St. George's-in—the East—I saw the prisoner on Monday fortnight, in company with the last witness—the prisoner said that he had left Mr. Maggi's house, and that he had taken away a pistol, and had a letter which he would send to Mr. Maggi, and to the cook; and that Mr. Maggi was to pay him 5l., and if he did not pay him the 5l., the pistol he had taken would serve him out, and should he be condemned in England he would lose nothing by it, because he had already been condemned by the authorities in France, in the galleys he showed me a letter—this is it—it is spotted over.

PHILIPPO BONTA (through an interpreter). I am an optician, of 44, Selby-street—on Monday fortnight, about 8 o'clock in the morning, I saw the prisoner—he said, "Good morning!" and said that he had been robbing Mr. Maggi—I asked him of how much, and he said, "A pound, a shilling, and a brooch," and that he had pawned the brooch for 6s.—I then went away to my work—I knew the prisoner before, as servant at Mr. Maggi's house (A translation of the letter was here read as follows:—"To Mr. Maggi—You are aware that I am tired of you, because you kept me too much like your slave, and I have suffered too much from you. I have taken one pound and one shilling from you because 1 believe to be able to get more; therefore;

my dear Maggi, if you value your own life, you must give 5l. to the cook who will remit them to me, as I have merely given him a letter. He knows nothing about the matter; and if you do not have those 5l. for me which must serve to my purpose in leaving London, it will cost you very dear, because you are an infamous fellow; and if you do not do what I tell you, you must know that a pistol of seven knots, a revolver, will be for you, and for your policeman, if you dare to bring and to send me to prison, knowing that I have fled from Cayenne, where I have been condemned twenty years; therefore if England gets me I do not lose very much, but have the satisfaction of having saved the world of a rogue, who is guilty of so much infamy to his wife and to his children. Give then those 5l. quickly to the cook to take them to the place whence this was written; if not, I shall find you in the hotel or in the shop, and look out for you till I find you.".

THOMAS ROBINS (Policeman, H 157). I took the prisoner in St. George's-street, near St. George's. in-the-East, yesterday week—I told him I wanted him—he was given into my custody by a female—I do not know who she was—I took him towards the Minories, and met Mr. Maggi, who said, "That is the man I want; he has robbed me"—I could not understand a word the prisoner said.

COURT to NICOLA MAGGI. Q. Is there any truth in what the prisoner states, that there has been any conversation between you and him in respect of his being a witness for your wife in some quarrel between you and your wife? A. Not at all—I do not know anything about it—he came and asked me once for 10s. a long time ago, and I gave it him directly—I took him in my house for charity—he said he was a poor Italian—my waiter found the letter in the letter-box at the door—my cook found a pawnbroker's ticket in the pocket of the prisoner's trousers which he left behind him.

GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months.

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-687
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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687. HENRY COTTON (20), and WILLIAM WADSWORTH (22) , Feloniously wounding George Benham, with intent to do him some grievous bodily harm.

MR. COOPER conducted the Prosecution.

GEORGE BENHAM . I live at 2, M'Cloud-cottages, Upper Clapton, and am a warehouseman—on Sunday, 4th August, I was going from the direction of Highbury barn, from my uncle's, to my home at Upper Clapton—about twenty-five minutes to 10 o'clock I was in Gipsey-lane, and found that I was being followed, I supposed at first by a man and woman—when I got just up to an embankment I turned suddenly round, finding the people behind me very close—one was just in front on the left-hand side, and the other stood where he was, behind me on the right—the prisoners are those two persons—I am certain of it—I asked Cotton which was the way to Stoke Newington—he hesitated for a moment, and then said, "I don't know;" and turning to the other prisoner he asked him if he knew—he hesitated for a moment, and then said, "No"—Cotton then said, "Oh! well you" had better go this way, "pointing in a direction rather to the right of that which I was going; a direction where I knew there was a hedge—I said to him, "I can't go that way, there is a hedge there"—just as I was saying that, I caught a momentary glance of Cotton stooping down on his right knee, and throwing the instrument round, which caught me just in the eye—it was something such an instrument as this (a life preserver)—it was a starlight. night—I only had time to have a moment's view of it—I had an umbrella in my right hand; I immediately flourished that, and called out, "Help!"

and then "Murder!"—the blood gushed out all over me, and smothered the front of my clothes—almost as soon as I threw my umbrella up in the air they both ran from me, just at the moment I was calling out—one went in one direction, and one in another—I followed about eight or ten yards, but I was almost blinded with the blood, and so I stood still—I was taken to the Highbury Park tavern—some one came up and assisted me there the prisoners were afterwards brought in, one at a time, and I recognised them as they were brought in—I am quite certain they are the two men—after I had had the wound dressed, about twenty minutes to 11 I should suppose, I went to the place where they ran past, and pointed it out to the policeofficer.

Cross-examined by MR. DICKIE (for Cotton). Q. Were there a number of people passing up and down there? A. No; there were not—I only noticed two persons pass—it is a public highway—I asked about the neighbourhood just as an excuse for turning round to look at them—it was Wadsworth that struck me—if I said Cotton before, I mean the shorter of the two, Wadsworth—Cotton was then just at my left, scarcely in front, but more to the front than anywhere else—he did not attempt to do anything to me—there was no attempt on their part to rob me—they did not get any opportunity—I was struck from the front—Wadsworth was standing at my right—I had not been drinking that day at all—I had taken a glass of sherry at my uncle's—nothing more than that—it was a moderate sized glass.

Cross-examined by MR. KEMP (for Wadsworth) Q. Did you notice what head-dress the shorter prisoner had on? A. To the best of my belief they both had caps—it was not drawn down over his face, but was sufficiently up for me to see his features—the short one was on the right, and when the taller one said to him, "Do you know?" I turned round to him, and saw him—I am perfectly sure he is the man who struck the blow—I saw him at the police-court.

GEORGE BASER . I live at 2, Port Royal-place, Stoke Newington-w Sunday, the 4th of this month, about half-past 9 o'clock, I was out walking, and heard a cry of "Murder" about 100 yards from Highbury Park Tavern—I ran back instantly, and met Cotton running very fast—I said to him, "What's amiss;" and he said, "They have got him; they are coming behind"—he kept on running—I ran after him and stopped him—he said nothing more about himself.

Cross-examined by MR. DICKIE. Q. Did not he say anything more about what he did? A. No; he said he had done nothing; that it was not him.

PAUL HAYCOCK . I live at 4, Wharton-place, Clerkenwell—on this Sunday night I was going across from the Sluice House to Highbury Park Tavern—I saw the prosecutor—soon after that I saw the two prisoners following him about six yards behind him—I had got about sixty yards off, and I heard a blow like a thud, and a cry of "Murder!"—on hearing that, I turned and looked, and saw the two prisoners running across the field from the prosecutor—I ran after Wadsworth—he jumped over a hedge, and fell—I kept on after him, and at last caught him, and then took him to Highbury Park Tavern—when we got there Cotton said that if they had done anything wrong to the gentleman they would apologise—I cannot recollect exactly what the words were—they had got Cotton up at the top of the lane, and then we took them both into the tavern together.

MR. COOPER. Q. Were they taken together into the prosecutor's presence' A. I left them in the custody of two gentlemen, and went out to fetch the prosecutor.

CHARLES KIMBER (Policeman, N 32). On the night of the 4th, about a quarter to 11, I went to the Highbury Park Tavern, and then accompanied the prosecutor to some spot which he pointed out to me—the next morning I went and looked about, and there found this life preserver about 120 yards from where the assault was committed—I saw where the blood had been flowing about—it was about thirty yards from where Wadsworth was apprehended.

HENRY HOLMES (Policeman, N 261). I received the prisoners into custody—the charge was for assaulting a gentleman with a life preserver—the prisoners did not hear the charge till they got to the station—it was then read to them—they made no reply.

EDWARD THORNLEY BOND . I am a surgeon, of 4, Church-road, Stoke Newington I was called to see the prosecutor on the night of the 4th of this month—he was then at Highbury Park Tavern—I got there about 10 o'clock—he was very pale, faint, and exhausted, and had evidently lost a great deal of blood—he had received a very severe wound of from three to four inches long, extending along to three-fourths, I should think, of the left eyebrow, and some distance, a third, down the nose, and the bone was bare the whole way—if it had been a little higher, it would most likely have fractured the skull; and if a little lower, I think it must have destroyed the left eye—I think this instrument a likely thing to have inflicted such a blow.

The prisoners received good character.

GUILTY .— Confined Eighteen Months Each.

FOURTH COURT.—Thursday, August 22d, 1861.


Before Robert Malcolm Kerr, Esq.

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-688
VerdictsGuilty > pleaded guilty; Guilty > with recommendation
SentencesImprisonment; Imprisonment > penal servitude; Imprisonment > penal servitude

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688. ALFRED HARRIS (16), and JOSEPH STANFIELD (17), were indicted for stealing 37 hooks, 15 horn whistles, and 2 whip mounts, the property of John Smith and another, their masters, and GEORGE HARRIS (25), and JOSEPH TAYLOR (25) , for feloniously receiving the said goods, knowing them to have been stolen; to which ALFRED HARRIS, JOSEPH STANFIELD, and GEORGE HARRIS PLEADED GUILTY .

ALERED HARRIS and JOSEPH STANFIELD received good characters.—Recommended to mercy by the Prosecutor.— Confined Twelve Months

GEORGE HARRIS— Four Years' Penal Servitude

MR. LANGFORD conducted the Prosecution..

JAMES SCHOMBERG . I am a whip-maker, at 196, Southwark Bridge-road—I have known Taylor ten or twelve years; he is a whip-maker—I think he is a London man—about seven or eight weeks ago he brought me about eight small buck hooks, about seven or eight buck-horn whistles, and about eighteen buck-horn hooks which do not whistle—he came to me again about three weeks afterwards and brought me a few more buck-horn hooks and three sets of mounts; these are two of them (produced)—I gave him 7s. a dozen for the buck-horn whistles, and 8s. a set for the mounts—he said on the first occasion that he brought them from Birmingham—I knew he had come from Birmingham—my wife knows how some other whip mounts, found in my shop, came there—she is not here—I do not know anything about them.

Cross-examined by MR. LLOYDI. Q. What do you call the hooks? A. Those that do not whistle—there are eighteen of them, and seven or eight that do whistle—the value of them depends upon who is the maker—I should not like to give more than 3s. 6d. or 4s. a dozen for those that do not whistle—I gave 7s. a dozen altogether for those that whistle, and those that do not—I cannot exactly say the number I bought—I call these two things at the top of the whip a set of mounts—I bought three sets they are German silver—what is on one whip we call a set—it did not enter my head that this property was stolen at the time—I have known the prisoner ten or twelve years—he has been a whip-maker during that time I think—I have never heard anything against his character—he is a respectable man as far as I know—I am aware that he has been in Birmingham; only from hearsay, I never saw him there—I am a whip. maker myself—I deal largely in these things—I do not know the two prisoners Stanfield and Harris—I have never seen them—these things would be all in a very little parcel that one could carry about easily.

Q. You say that those mounts are metal; according to what you say you gave for them, you would be giving the price of silver? A. I gave 8d. apiece; at the rate of 8s. a dozen sets—I only gave about 2s. for the three sets—I did not enter these purchases in my books.

JOHN SMITH . I am a whip-maker in Barbican—I have a partner—Stan-field was an apprentice to me, and Harris was a servant—about a quarter to 8 o'clock, on the morning of 30th July, I secreted myself in a room on my premises and saw Stanfield force a door which leads to another room, which is used as a warehouse for unfinished stock—he forced it with a long bar I then saw him open several nests and take out some mounts similar to those produced, put some in his pocket, and some he secreted under the flooring of the outershop—about 12 o'clock on the same day I saw him there with Harris—they both went in about seven or eight times, and each time opened several drawers, took mounts out, and put them in their pockets—I had previously to that made a communication to the police—I know Taylor; he was in my service four or five months, about five or six months back, till about February or March last—we had missed whip-mounts from our stock before this 30th July, for a considerable time—Stanfield was in my service at the same time that Taylor was; Harris was not—we were missing the stock every day, and I at last watched—we had missed some of those horns—I know that these mounts are mine; they have come out of our stock—they cost us about 1s. 4d. or 1s. 6d. a set—I recognise these handles—we purchased fifty-four of these hooks, and they degenerated to thirteen—we call them buck hook whistles—they are used for sticks and hunting tops—we had not sold any either to Taylor, Stanfield, Harris, or anybody else.

Cross-examined. Q. Are you the only person in London who deals in those things? A. No, there are many more—we have no private mark on them—other people do not deal in mountings of that description—we know our own make—Taylor had an opportunity of seeing those mounts made while in my employ—I had no character with him; we have no character with journeymen—I know his father is in this business—the prisoner could not adopt our pattern and make some for his father, because he is not a mount-maker—he is not a chaser, he is a whip maker—I know he cannot chase or make a mount; there is nothing at all peculiar about, making them—I can swear to the chasing—Stanfield was in my employ during the whole of the time Taylor was, up to the time he was taken into custody—I had seen Stanfield and Taylor together several times after Taylor had left—they

were nightly together—we did watch them before this—I examined the door and could not make out how they got the things—Harris was learning the finishing and one part of the whip making—he did not learn the chasing part—he is a whip maker, not a mount maker—it is a distinct trade.

MR. LANGRORD. Q. Is your chaser here? A. No; the mount maker is.

WILLIAM SHOSBREE . I am a whip and cane mounted—these mounts are my making, and Mr. Smith's property—I have no doubt about it—Taylor is not capable of making one that I am aware of—he is a whip maker.

Cross-examined. Q. Was he in the prosecutor's employment with you?A. Yes—he has left some time ago now—he has seen me making these mouth—he is not particularly sharp—Harris does different parts; he rolls the whips—he was there with me also—I am still in Mr. Smith's employ—there is nothing peculiar in the way I do the mounts, different from what other people do, but I swear to these mounts—I made the tools myself, and made the mounts—I have been in the employment three years.

CHARLES BAKER (City-policeman, 95). At 1 o'clock, on the afternoon of July 30th, I was with Bull, opposite Mr. Smith's house, from information 1 received—I saw Harris and Stanfield leave the house—I stopped Stanfield, told him I was a police constable, and took him to the station—I searched him and found forty-two whip mounts similar to these in his trousers' pockets—I afterwards went to Taylor's father's house, 54, Coppice-row, and saw the prisoner in the workshop at the back—it is a whip maker's shop—I called him out of the shop, and said I wanted to speak to him privately—I told him that I was a detective police officer, and asked him if he knew Harris and Stanfield—he said, "Yes"—I asked him what he had done with the property he had bought of them; he said he had sold it to Mr. Scomberg, of 196, Southwark-road—I then took him to Mr. Schomberg's house and found these things—the prosecutor was with me at the time—Taylor said "I sold some of the whistles to Mr. Scomberg;" but he denied selling the mounts and some other articles—he said he had given 4s. or 5s. a time for them to Harris and Stanfield—I then took him to the station.

Cross-examined. Q. How much did he admit that he had bought? A. Three or four lots—he did not know how many there were in a lot—he mentioned two sets of mounts—the moment I spoke to him about it he told me he had bought them, and where he had sold them at once—I never saw him before that—his father is in this line of business.

JOSEPH STANFIELD . I was apprentice to Mr. John Smith, the prosecutor—on 30th July, about a quarter to 8, I broke open a door leading to the warehouse, and took out some whip mounts, and again at half-past 11. When the officer took me, he took away from me forty or forty-two whip mounts, which I had stolen. I had taken some about three times before that I took some to the prisoner Taylor, and some to Harris. I think Taylor gave me sixpence a set for some of these mounts. I took about fifteen or sixteen buck-horn hooks. I did not know that there were fifty-four of those—I took them to Taylor, and he gave me fivepence and sixpence apiece for them.

Cross-examined. Q. Did you tell Taylor that you had stolen them when you sold them? No; he did not know that I had stolen them.

COURT to J. SMITH. Q. Is George Harris any relation to Alfred? A. No.

Taylor received a good character;

GUILTY.—Recommended to mercy by the Jury. — Four Years' Penal Servitude.

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-689
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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Stealing, on 24th July, 30 pairs of ear-rings, value 25l., the property of Hayman Sukerladen, in his dwelling-house.

MR. ATKINSON conducted the Prosecution

HAYMAN SUKERLADEN . I carry on business as a jeweller and dealer in plate, in Finsbury-circus—on July 24th, about 10 o'clock in the morning the two prisoners came into my shop—it has a counter in it—I was behind the counter when they came in—I knew Sideman—I had seen him before—he came in for some particular kind of watch—I showed him some, and he said they were not the kind that he wanted—he spoke in English—at that time I had a parcel on my counter, containing about thirty pairs of earrings, wrapped up in paper—there was nobody else in the shop besides me and the two prisoners—when they said that the watches would not do, I turned to the shelf, a little way off, to get some more—they looked at them, and they both said they were not the kind they wanted—I showed them other watches, and they picked out one—I think Sideman asked the price—it was handled by Sideman, and Pollack took it in his hand too—I said the price was 1l.—Sideman said he did not know whether it would suit; he would leave me a sovereign and take it on approbation—he offered me a sovereign, and I said I only sold watches—when they could not get the watch of me they left the shop—I immediately looked for the parcel of ear-rings on the counter, and missed it—there had been nobody in my shop while they were there, from the time I saw the parcel to the time I missed it.

Cross-examined by MR. ORRIDGE (for Pollack). Q. Do you keep the three-quarter plate Geneva watches? A. Yes; that was the sort they asked for, in a German silver case—I did not know Pollack at all—I had never seen him before—I know Messrs. Abraham's, the wholesale watchmakers, at 136, Houndsditch—I do not know that they do not keep these watches—I know Mr. Harkman; he is assistant to Mr. Abraham—I do not know that before Pollack came to me he had been to Mr. Harkman for a watch—I was examined before the Magistrate—I do not remember whether Mr. Harkman was there the first time—I saw him there the second time—I do not know that a watch was bought of Mr. Harkman on that very morning—I have only been told so.

Cross-examined by MR. LEWIS (for Sideman). Q. Do you know that it was Pollack who was purchasing, and that Sideman was there to give him the benefit of his skill; do you know that it was for Pollack? A. I understood so—mine is a private shop; the door is closed—I had had nobody there before the prisoners came that morning—I wanted the ear-rings out on that morning to show a customer—I was intending to go out with the ear-rings to sell to a customer; his name is Rees, in Lamb's Conduit-street—I took them out in the morning about 8 o'clock, and they were on the counter from that time till the prisoners came in—I put them on the counter so that I should not forget to take them with me—I had not had an order for them—I go to take orders—I did not leave anything else upon the counter—I did not go to Mr. Rees—the parcel was tied up.

MR. ATKINSON. Q. When they were standing there, who was nearest to the ear-rings? A. Sideman.

COURT. Q. When you missed the ear-rings, what did you do? A. I went directly to Petticoat-lane and gave information where they sell such goods, to stop such a parcel if it came there—I looked after the men as well as the parcel—I afterwards gave information to the police, at the City station—I first went there about 12 o'clock.

JOSEPH DEEBLE (Policeman, H 195). I was informed of this matter on

24th July, by the last witness—from what he told me I went to 8, Grove-street, Commercial-road, and stopped very nearly opposite—another policeman was passing at the time, and I spoke to him—I saw Sideman go into the house, and I tried to get up to the door before it was closed, but I did not—I knocked at the door, but they did not admit me for five or six minutes—I searched the house—I did not find Sideman there—I saw him in the Commercial-road about half an hour afterwards, and took him in custody—I said, "I shall take you in custody for being concerned with another man in stealing a quantity of jewellery," and at the same time I took my pocket-book out, and produced the prosecutor's card—I said, "From No. 9, North Buildings, Finsbury"—he said, "I do not know the place; I know nothing about it; I was never there in my life"—I said, "You will have to go to. the station"—when he got there he told the inspector the same thing—he was searched, and 3s. and 4 1/2 d. in money, a watch, a key, a ring, and some duplicates were found on him.

Cross-examined by MR. LEWIS. Q. Are you quite sure that Sideman said he had never been near the place in his life? A. I would not be positive—he said, "I was never there," or, "I was never there in my life.".

ADOLPHE NEWSTEDT . I live at No. 9, North Buildings, and work at the tailoring business—it is the same place where Mr. Sukerladen carries on his business—on Wednesday, 24th July, about 10 o'clock, I saw the two prisoners come in; I opened the door to them—Mr. Sukerladen carries on his business up stairs, on the first floor—they asked for him—I do not remember which of them asked—I said, "I think he is at home," and they went up stairs.

Cross-examined by MR. ORRIDGE. Q. Was there anything to prevent a person getting up into this room without your knowing it? A. I think so; because when they knock I open the door—they cannot get up stairs without knocking, because the street door is shut.

Cross-examined by MR. LEWIS. Q. Did you know where Mr. Sukerladen was, at the time you let the prisoners in? A. No, I did not—I did not see whether he came from the shop—the prisoners went up stairs—they lead to the place where he keeps his jewellery—he has a good many rooms—I did not follow them up stairs to see where they went—I do not know whether the door of his rooms are kept open or closed.

WILLIAM CHANDLER (Policeman, H 117). I took Pollack into custody on the evening of 24th July, about 6 o'clock, at No. 9, Leman-street, Whitechapel—he occupies the first floor there—Deeble was with me—I told the prisoner that he was charged with being concerned with another in stealing some jewellery—he said that he knew nothing about it—I did not tell him the name of the other man, or the place where the jewellery was taken, or the name of the prosecutor—Deeble took him to the station—he had had some previous conversation with him—there was no property found relating to the present charge.

Cross-examined by MR. ORRIDGE. Q. Nor relating to any other charge. A. No.

Cross-examined by MR. LEWIS. Q. Were you with Deeble when Sideman was taken into custody? A. No.

MR. LEWIS to JOSEPH DEEBLE. Q. Who was with you when you took Sideman? A. Another officer, who has nothing to do with the case—he had just come from the police-court—I will swear the word "Never" Was used in my conversation with Sideman—I will swear that the words "I was never there in my life" were used—I received information of this robbery

from the prosecutor about 3 o'clock—he went to the Metropolitan station first, about 12—I do not belong there, and knowing me, he came down to Lime-street police-station.

COURT to MR. SUKERLADEN. Q. Were you in that room where the counter was, with the ear-rings upon it from 8 in the morning till when the prisoner came in? A. Yes; I looked out the ear-rings from a particular place, and laid them on the counter that morning—I was in the room from the time I looked them out till the prisoners came.

MR. ORRIDGE. Q. Do you know that gentleman standing there (pointing to a gentleman in Court)? A. Yes; I do not think I have said to him or to anybody, that I believed Pollack was innocent—I dare say I have said that, as Pollack was not near the parcel, he looked an honest man to me, as I had not seen him before—I have not said that I would not have prosecuted him if it had not been for the police—he has been on bail—I have seen him in the street since—I did not see the bail taken.

The prisoners received good characters.


19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-690
VerdictGuilty > with recommendation

Related Material

690. ADAM ROGERS (29), JOHN GLEESON (36), and WILLIAM PERCIVAL (31) , Robbery with violence upon Richard Hodson, and stealing from his person, 1 pocket-book, 2 bills of exchange, one for the payment of 100l., and the other for the payment of 34l., 20 pieces of paper, 5 keys, knife, and a handkerchief, his property.

MR. ATKINSON conducted the Prosecution..

RICHARD HODSON . I live at 61, Albert-street, White Conduit-street, Islington—I am out of business, living on my means—on a Monday, some where about the 30th July, about half-past 10, I was walking along White-chapel-road, close against Mile-end gate—some man came up and begged of me, and I gave him a penny and half a pint of beer at a public-house—while I was in the house, standing at the bar, the three prisoners and three or four others came in—they stayed there about an hour perhaps, and I was there too—I had two glasses of porter, and I likewise stood a pot of beer for these men—I changed a sovereign while they were there—I went out of the public-house first and went towards the City—all the men followed me—Rogers came in front of me—I had very strong suspicions that they wanted to rob me, and took my purse out of my trousers' pocket and put it in my coat-tail pocket—I saw a policeman and spoke to him, and the prisoners walked forward about ten yards—after that I' left the policeman and went on towards the Minories—as I was going along I saw the prisoners; there were seven men altogether, some were before me, and some behind—I can't say who were before me—I cannot say whether the prisoners were before or behind me—when I got close against Moses and Son's, Rogers asked me to give him some more to drink—I told him I wanted to go home—he said he knew where there was a house open in the Minories, and we would go and have a glass there, and then go home—I went and stood a pot of beer there, paid for it, and thinking that they meant robbing me I went out of the house—as I went out, there were others preventing my getting away—I paid for two pots of beer there—I put my hands in my pocket with the intention that they should see me, but in reality I put them behind, and I then put my hands in front, to make them believe I had got my purse in my front pocket, but in reality I put it behind—the prisoners were at the bar at that time—after the beer was drunk, we all went out together—it was between 3 and 4 at that time—I remember being close to Aldgate-market—I heard a whistle which attracted my attention, and at that moment I

received a terrific blow on the forehead from the prisoner Rogers—I do not know what with; I thought it was with his fist—it knocked me down—it did not deprive me of my senses—I jumped up as quick as possible and called out "Police"—I saw the other prisoners there—Rogers came up to me first, and said, "Have you been robbed of your purse?"—I said "You know I have"—I then put my hand behind me to see whether it was gone, and Rogers tried to wrest it from me, and scratched my hands—the other prisoners did not do anything to me at that time—Percival robbed me of my pocket-book and keys when I was first knocked down—all of them were there when I was knocked down, but I cannot say which one robbed me—I lost my pocket-book, containing two bills of exchange, several letters, five keys, a pocket-handkerchief, a knife, and almost everything I had in my pockets—they were in my trousers' pocket—I was robbed by Percival—I saw him, and felt him put his hands in my pocket—a constable came up after Rogers had spoken to me, and the prisoners divided—Percival and Gleeson went one way, and Rogers went another way—I gave them into custody—I was sober—a policeman came up when I shouted.

Cross-examined by MR. BEST (for Rogers). Q. You say you are a gentleman retired from business? A. Yes; I was a wholesale potato salesman before I retired—I had a greengrocer's shop—I have been here in the dock, it was through my wife; she brought a charge of rape against me, on purpose to get what profit I had got—I had got about 900l. in my box—I was tried by a jury and acquitted—my wife was not the prosecutrix, she had one to do it for her—I left home on this day about 8 in the morning—I had been to Covent-garden, and Spitalfields, and stayed there to have my tea—I had not a glass to drink during the day—I am quite sure of that—I had dinner that day in Fleet-street—I never take beer with my dinner—I did not take anything after dinner—I had something to drink before the beggar invited me into the house—I began about 10 o'clock in Cleveland-street, White-chapel—I had a pint of ale there—I went to a friend's house after that and we had a pint there, not more—we had some business there which took me longer than I expected, and as I was coming from Cleveland-street to the City, I thought, as I had a good long way to walk, that I would have a short pipe home, and a glass of ale—I then went to the public-house where these men came in, where the man invited me in—I frequently treat people to porter—I generally have a glass myself—I had two half-pints there—it is my opinion that when I got to Moses and Son's, it was 12 o'clock—I went to the other public-house, in the Minories, about half-past 12—I did not have a glass there—I stood a pot and paid for it, and coming out, there were a lot of people ready to stop me—I was not knocked down then, it was further on—when I got up to Moses and Son's I heard a whistle, and the moment I heard it I received a blow, and down I went—I had never seen these men before that night—I suppose I could not see any better after I had the Wow than I could before—I was not drunk.

Gleeson. Q. What time did you meet me at the Blue Anchor? A. I do not know—there was a man there with a razor—nobody was with me—I changed a sovereign there—I did not meet any of my acquaintances—I did not go to the Nag's Head after I left the first house—I know the Leaping Bar—I was never in there in my life—you know I saw you when I was knocked down—I am at home pretty regularly of a night—I do not live with my wife.

Percival. Q. At the time you say you stood us the pot of beer, was it not for some prostitutes in the house? A. No; I never saw a female there—I never spoke to one.

Charles Oliver (City-policeman, 31). About a quarter to 4 on the morning of 30th July, I was on duty in Aldgate High street, and heard a cry of "Police!" about twenty or thirty yards off—I went in the direction of the cry and saw the three prisoners—I noticed Rogers first, going down towards the Minories—the other two crossed the road and went down Aldgate—I spoke to the prosecutor and got some information—police constable 668, came up at that time—I sent him after Gleeson and Percival, and I went after Rogers—I called him back, and 668 brought back Gleeson and Percival—I searched Rogers and Gleeson, but found nothing; but on Percival I found two letters, five keys, a penknife, and pocket handkerchief (produced)—I asked him if the keys and letters belonged to him—he said, "Now, policeman, you have brought me to my senses, I have been drunk all night, they do not belong to me"—the prosecutor was sober when I came up he seemed very much agitated, and the blood was running from his forehead—I afterwards found this pocket-book in the churchyard near, containing two bills of exchange, one for 100l. and the other for 34l. and some papers.

Cross-examined. Q. You saw the prosecutor I believe directly after this affair took place, did he tell you that it was Gleeson who knocked him down! A. No; he said Rogers, I am quite sure of that—when I came up to him I asked him what was the matter—he was very much agitated—I asked him about the men, and he said they had robbed him of a pocket-book containing 134l.—he told me Rogers knocked him down and Gleeson and Percival rifled his pockets—I am quite sure of that—I have never said before that he said Gleeson—if Gleeson is put in the depositions it is not my mistake—I have always said Rogers.

Gleeson. Q. You got my address and went to my master, what character did he give you? A. A very good one—I know nothing about you.

Percival. Q. Have you inquired about my character? A. I have—Mr. Blackman gave you a very good character, as a hardworking man.

COURT. Q. Have you inquired about all their characters? A. Yes; they all bear very good characters—they all work for one firm.

WILLIAM HART HART (City-policeman, 668). On 30th of July, about a quarter to 4, I was near the church in Aldgate, and saw the prisoners come from the direction of Houndsditch—the prosecutor was ten or twelve yards behind them, calling "Police!" before the prisoners got to me and the sergeant, they crossed the road from the church—Rogers turned down the Minories, and the other two walked on towards Whitechapel—I went after them, stopped them, and said they must come back with me—Percival said he should not come back—he had not got anything belonging to the man—they came back, and I saw their pockets felt by Oliver—these keys were taken from Percival—the prosecutor was sober, but agitated; when I got to the station-house I made a further search of Percival, and found a silk handkerchief, a penknife, two letters, a halfpenny, a ring, this piece of rag and the five keys which had been given to him back by the sergeant, who found them on feeling down his pockets—he was asked whose they were—he said they were not his, and they were given back and taken to the station.

Gleeson. Q. When you came up to me, did not I say I was not frightened to go to the station? A. Yes; you were not running away.

Percival. Q. When you called me back, how far was I from you? A. I walked by the side of a van which was going towards Whitechapel, and then I went in front of you and stopped you.

RICHARD HODSON (re-examined). These keys are mine—I had them in

my pocket on that evening—this handkerchief, knife, and letters are mine—I had them in my pocket that evening—I cannot recognise the halfpenny—the pocket-book discovered in the churchyard is also mine.

JURY. Q. Did either of the prisoners pass the churchyard after you received the blow? A. Yes—Gleeson and Percival—in taking the purse away Rogers hurt my hand and made it bleed—my hand was all over blood.

JURY to CHARLES OLIVER. Q. Did you observe any blood on rogers's hand? A. No; I did not look—the prosecutor told me that he had hurt his knuckles—it did not occur to me to look at Rogers's hand—the prisoners were all sober.

Gleeson's Defence. I wish to call Inspector Ellison to prove that I assisted in taking a man who committed a robbery some time ago; I never put my hand into any man's pocket in my life; I have a good character from the Crimea, and have been working on the docks; I never laid a finger on the prosecutor; he was in the public-house with a lot of others he had picked up drinking.

Gleeson called

----ELLISON (Police-inspector). I remember a gentleman being assaulted. and robbed of his watch last December—Gleeson assisted in apprehending the party—he joined in the chase and assisted me very much—he gave evidence at the police-court—he came out of a house near, and, in fact, saved the gentleman's life—I have known him since then and have never heard anything against his character.

Percival's Defence. I am quite innocent; I don't know anything about the things that were found in my pockets; there were a lot more there besides us with him; he put himself on to us; we did not want anything from him; he must have been drunk; he drank at all the public-houses freely; he is well known all about that part; I never spoke to him myself at all; we did not want his company; I never was in charge in my life, and never robbed any man.

GUILTYRecommended to mercy by the Jury. — Confined Eight months Each.

OLD COURT.—Friday, August 23d, 1861.


Before Robert Malcolm Kerr, Esq.

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-691
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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691. THOMAS QUILTER (24) , Standing indicted for larceny as servant to the Postmaster-general.

In this case, the prisoner remaining silent and apparently imbecile when called upon to plead, the Jury, upon the evidence of Mr. Gibson, the surgeon of Newgate, and Mr. Jonas, the governor, found that he remained mute of malice; a plea of not guilty was entered. For the Trial, see New Court, Friday.

Before Mr. Justice Blackburn.

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-692
VerdictGuilty > lesser offence

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692. ALFRED LOUIS PONS DE VIDIL (52), was indicted for unlawfully, maliciously, and feloniously cutting and wounding Alfred John de Vidil, with intent to murder him. Other Counts—stating his intent to be to maim and disable, and to do grievous bodily harm.

MESSRS. CLERK and BEASLEY conducted the Prosecution.

ISAAC PERRY . I am a helper in Tollett's livery-stables, Oxford Street—

on 28th June last I had an order to take two horses to Twickenham—I took them there—when I got there two gentleman came to ride them—I should know them again—the prisoner is one of them—they left the yard at Twickenham about 2 o'clock, as near as I can remember—the other gentleman was younger than the prisoner—the prisoner had a whip, the other gentleman had not—the prisoner asked me particularly which was the quietest horse, as the other gentleman could not ride; so I told him which was the quietest, and the other gentleman rode it, and the prisoner gave him the whip—it was a very small whip, something like a lady's whip—the younger gentleman had the whip when they started—there were not two whips—the prisoner asked me to borrow one if I could—I could not; I went into the hotel and asked the ostler, but he could not get one—I told the prisoner that the horse he rode would require a whip—they then rode away—(a whip was here produced)—the whip was a similar one to this—I could not swear that this was the one—it was what we call a very small whip—the gentlemen went away, and I waited to receive the horses—the horses came back about 8 o'clock, or between 7 and 8—the gentlemen were not with them; some strange man brought them—in consequence of what he said to me, I went to the Swan Inn, at Twickenham, and there saw the gentlemen—I merely asked them for some money to pay for the baiting of the horses—I did not say anything about the horses coming back without them—I said nothing to the prisoner about any accident, nor did he to me—I do not recollect anything of the kind—I came back to town with the horses.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE (with MESSRS. SLEIGH and ORRIDGE). Q. It was a quiet horse that the young gentleman was on, was it? A. Very quiet—it was at the express request of his father that he was put upon the quietest horse—he asked me repeatedly, two or three times, which was the quietest, because he said the other gentleman could not ride a bit—the one the prisoner rode is a little fractious at times; he will stop and rear up at times—he requires a good rider to manage him—he required a whip, and the other one did not—I mean that the one the prisoner rode required a whip—the sou started with the whip—I told the prisoner that the horse he rode would require a whip, but he did not have one—I told him he bad better stop in the town and buy a stick or something.

JURY. Q. Did the prisoner ever hire horses at Tollett's before. A, Oh, yes, repeatedly, not two horses, one—he used to ride in the park in an afternoon for a couple of hours.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. He is a regular customer of Tollett's, is he not? A. Yes; he rides in the park several times in the season, for two hours or so.

MR. CLERK (Mr. Alfred de Vidil was here called in). Q. Is that the young man you have been speaking of? A. Yes.

ALFRED JOHN DE VIDIL (called). Am I called by the counsel for the defence?—I decline to be sworn for the prosecution—I believe it will be in the power of the defence to call me.

MR. JUSTICE BLACKBURN. What you are called upon to do is to give evidence indifferently of the truth, and the whole truth, without regard to what effect it will have one way or the other.

Witness. I feel that your lordship is right, but I am not able to give my evidence against my father—I shall be obliged to leave myself in your lord—I ship's hands—(The learned Judge explained to the witness that, in refusing to be sworn, he violated the duty cast upon him by law, and subjected himself to punishment)—I must still decline; at the same time, I feel that your lord—

ship is only saying what is just, but I must still decline—(MR. CLERK having, in reply to the Court, stated that the evidence of the witness was required, he was again Called upon to take the oath)—My lord, I still decline—I have well considered my position—I have had several weeks to consider of it—I thank your lordship for asking me again, but my mind is made up.

The learned Judge then proceeded to pass upon the witness a sentence of One Month's imprisonment for contempt of Court

JOHN EVANS . I am an engineer employed on the South-western Railway at the Twickenham Station—on the evening of 28th June I went to the Duke D'Aumale's to see some friends of mine there—there is a lane which leads from the church at Twickenham past the Swan Tavern towards the Duke D'Aumale's—that lane runs parallel to the high road from Twickenham to Richmond along the water-side—afterwards, when you get in the direct way from Twickenham it turns up and joins the main-road again—I was in this lane that evening about 7 o'clock—I cannot say whether it was after or before—there is a gate there—I saw a woman of the name of Fitzgibbon in the road—she came up to me whilst I was standing at the gate—I saw young Mr. de Vidil come up to where I and Fitzgibbon were standing—he had his hat off, and his face was covered with blood—he ran up and crouched down between me and the old woman—while he was there two saddle-horses came up, one after the other, both without riders, and directly afterwards the prisoner came round the corner, close after the horses; he was running—he came up to the gate where I was standing—he was in this manner (trembling), and saying, "What is the matter? what is the matter?" twice over—he made an attempt to jump over the rails—he missed the first time; in the second attempt he succeeded in getting over—he got over the rail next to the post that the gate was hinged on to—he got over the fence—there are tenter hooks at the top of the fence, and he got his hands fast in the tenter hooks—that was in the second attempt that he made to get over—there is a shrubbery on the other side of the fence; that leads down to the river—there is a foot road down to the river from the footway where I stood—I should say it is from twenty to thirty yards from the footway where I stood to the river; I do not know exactly, because I have only been once or twice in the place since this occurrence, I never was in the place before: it is something of that distance—as he was getting over I called to him, "What do you want there? there is nothing there for you"—at the time he came up he had a whip handle in his hand it was a whip handle with a loop at one end, and silver mounted, or some white metal, at the other end—I did not take particular notice what it was—it was somewhere about two feet, or two feet six long—the handle was of a yellowish colour—this is not it (looking at the whip already produced), this is not the sort of thing the prisoner had in his hand—the silver mount was longer—I expect the yellowish colour was the colour of the material—I did not notice what kind of material it was—my attention was taken up with the young man more than anything else—I cannot say whether the prisoner carried the whip handle over the fence with him or not—when he got over the fence he got into the path, and then there is another iron fencing, and he jumped over that and got into the shrubbery, and there I lost sight of him—I went with the young man towards the Swan Inn at Twickenham—the prisoner came up to me again before I bad got three or four yards away from the gate where I was first standing—I should not think he was absent in the shrubbery above two minutes; I do not recollect exactly, but I should say it could not be more than that—the gate is between one hundred and two

hundred yards from the Swan—he walked with me along the lane to the Swan—as we were going along I asked him how the injury had happened—he said the horse had shied and thrown him against the wall—I did not fetch the doctor—I cannot say who did—I did not see any whip afterwards picked up on the road—I do not remember whether the prisoner had anything in his hand when he rejoined me—I do not remember seeing anything.

Cross-examined. Q. How long altogether do you say he was away after he had got over the palings? A. From one to two minutes, I should think—he appeared to be very much excited—he went in the direction of the river—he could have reached the river in the time he was away, if he was running; not in walking—he could have done so without my seeing him—the shrubbery takes a winding turn to the river—he had to get over two palings from the lane—I saw him get over both, into the shrubbery, and then I lost sight of him—there is a path-road there leading down to the river—the distance between the two palings is about a couple of yards—they stand at about right angles to each other—part of the shrubbery reaches down to the river on one side, or nearly so—there is a footpath all the way down to the river—I do not know whether it also runs by the side of the river—the high road, where this happened, is very much frequented, not the foot-path—there is a footpath at the end of the lane leading down to the Twickenham Meadows—that is some distance off—at times a good many persons walk in that direction.

MR. CLERK. Q. Is there any footpath at the bottom of the shrubbery by the river? A. Not that I am aware of, I do not think there is—further on the lane leads to a footpath over the fields towards Richmond.

JURY. Q. Was the whip you speak of with a loop at the end, such as gentlemen sometimes ride in the park with, or was it a whip handle that was broken? A. It was a whip handle with a loop on it, which appeared to be about three inches in length—I do not know whether it was a loop that you would put a thong on—it was not such a loop as you see upon a life—preserver.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Was what you supposed to be the loop, at the end or the top of the whip? A. At the end of the handle—there was no thong to it—it was a leather loop, I believe about three inches long.

COURT. Q. Not a thong, but a loop such as a thong might be fastened to? A. Yes.

JULIA FITZGIBBON . I live at Brentford—on the evening of 28th June last I was in the road near the Duke D'Aumale's, passing a bye—Mr. Evans was there, on the road—the young gentleman was the person that I came up to first—I was frightened when I saw him coming along, it might be the distance from you to me, and I said, "Lord a mercy, what's the matter?"—he was on foot, running, and he put up his hands, and said, "Oh, mother, protect me"—he was bleeding in the face—his hat was not on, and there was some blood on his hair, too, a good deal—Evans was on the road, but there was nobody with me at first: I was up to the young man first—I saw Evans in the road, but the young gentleman took my attention—there was a good many ran to protect the horses, and so and so—I saw another gentleman come up, and he drawed off his gloves, and said, "What is the matter?"—I said "What is the matter, sir?"—he said, "He hurt himself against the wall"—I did not take any notice of the gentleman that said that, it was the young gentleman who was destroyed that I took notice of—I did not see the other gentleman do anything after that—I afterwards picked up some gloves—he told me when he went on with some of the men to take them up to the Swan

to take care of—he said, "I wish you would go and get my hat," and when I was gone for the hat I met a whip, and I picked it up, and his lilac gloves—the whip produced is not the one that I picked up—there were no lumps in it—it was mounted straight on with silver, like that—there was some on the bead, and it was mounted generally like that in the middle until about that length—I took them to the Swan public-house, and gave them up to the landlady—I did not see the gentleman again that day.

COURT. Q. Will you explain a little more the sort of whip that you picked up? What was it like, as far as you can remember? A. Why is it not brought here for me to see it—it was mounted with silver—it was all silver on the top, plated with silver—the body of the whip was a darkish colour—I can't tell how long it was; I did not measure it.

JURY. Q. Had it a loop at the end? A. No—I did not admire it having any loop on it—no there was not—I mean I did not notice any loop—there was no loop.

COURT. Q. Was it as long a whip as that? A. About that length, but rather thicker, not much.

JURY. Q. Was it heavier than that? A. Betwixt the betweens—that is not the whip—I don't suppose it was much heavier than that.

JAMES TANNER . I keep the Black Dog public-house at Twickenham—about 7 o'clock, on the evening of 28th June last, I was in this lane near Orleans house—I saw two gentlemen riding—they were then going away from the Swan towards Richmond, and I was walking towards Twickenham—a few minutes afterwards I heard some one say that there were two horses loose—I looked round and saw two horses loose in the road; they were both saddled—they were the same horses I had seen shortly before ridden by the two gentlemen—the prisoner was one of those gentlemen—upon seeing the horses loose I made towards them with others, and then I saw the young gentleman being led by Evans on one side, and the prisoner on the other, bleeding profusely from a wound in the forehead—I went forward, and said, "What has been the matter? what has occurred?"—the prisoner said, "An accident, a fall from his horse"—I then said, "What are you going to do? there is a public-house a little further on; had you not better bring him there?"—we all went forward together and medical assistance was sent for.

Q. Can you say how far they had gone down the road after you first saw them, before you heard that the horses were loose? A. About 260 yards; at any rate I had walked 260 yards from the time they had passed me—I was walking towards Twickenham.

JOHN EVERETT . I am a private watchman at the Duke D'Aumale's at Twickenham—on the evening of 28th June last, about 7 o'clock, I was outside the door of the Swan public-house, and observed two gentlemen on horseback—they were riding towards the Duke D'Aumale's—about five minutes after that I saw the two horses come round from the Duke D'Aumale's without riders—I caught hold of them—I saw blood on the saddle of the smallest horse of the two, and on the mane—I cannot say which gentleman was riding the smallest horse—I saw the young gentleman with his face all covered with blood—Evans had hold of his arm—his face was covered with blood, his coat, and waistcoat, and everything, and there was plenty of blood running down his face—I saw the prisoner a minute afterwards; he came up—I asked him how it happened—he said, "He was standing up in the stirrups, on the saddle, and the horse shyed and chucked him against the wall"—I asked him to send for a doctor three or four times, but he made no reply; he seemed very much agitated—that was all I saw—they went away to the Swan.

Cross-examined. Q. You say that the prisoner appeared very much agitated? A. Yes; he seeded hardly to know what he was doing; he seemed all of a tremble.

ALFRED CLARK . I am a surgeon at Twickenham—on the evening of 28th June I was called to the Swan Inn to see a young gentleman who had met with an injury there—I believe the prisoner was in the room when I got there—I am not very sure whether he was or not; he was immediately afterwards—all the front part of the young man's person appeared to be covered with blood—they had washed his face, therefore I do not think there was any blood running down his face at that time—I examined his head—there was one wound on the forehead, near the centre, just at the junction where the hair begins to grow—it was a contused, starred wound—the skin was cut—I did not probe it, from the character of it; it was quite through the scalp—I found another wound at the back part of the head, and rather on one side—I should say that was about the same depth as the other; it was through the scalp, apparently—it was of the same character as the wound in front; it was starred like the other—there were no scratches about the face—when I first got to the young man he was faint—I should say, from the state of his dress, that a great deal of blood had flowed, I think principally from the wound in front; but of that I cannot be certain, because the blood from the wound at the back might have trickled round to the front of the neck on to the dress, as well as from the wound on the forehead—I asked the prisoner, as any one naturally would, under the circumstances, how it had occurred (the young man was present at the time)—he told me that the young man had been thrown from his horse against a wall—I asked him in what way it had occurred; if the horse had run away, or had fallen, or shied—he told me the horse had shied and had thrown him against a wall—I did not make any observation to the prisoner with regard to there being two wounds, one at the front and one at the back.

Q. From the position and character of the two wounds, could they, in your opinion, have been occasioned by a person falling against a wall? A. If the wounds had been of a different character, different in their nature, I think it is possible that two such wounds might have been inflicted—there were no scratches about the face—I do not think those wounds could have been occasioned by a person falling against a wall—they were such wounds as might have been occasioned by a blow from a blunt instrument—I should say from their appearance that great violence had been used in inflicting them—I dressed the wounds—I then had some conversation with the young man—I had desired the Baron to leave the room before I had any particular conversation with the young man—he had made a statement to me before I requested the prisoner to leave the room—I afterwards sent my assistant to accompany the young man back to town; I believe he remained with him till 12 o'clock at night—I did not see him until the next morning—he was too late to return by the train that night.

COURT. Q. Was there anything in the appearance of the wound to indicate whether the foreign substance which had occasioned it was large or small? A. From the size of the wound I should say it was small—I should say it had struck on a small surface.

WILLIAM PARKER . I reside at Ware-park in Hertfordshire—I and the prisoner married sisters—the prisoner has only one son; that is the young man who met with this injury on 28th June—I believe he was the only child of that marriage—the prisoner's wife died before I was acquainted with the family—I think it must have been twenty-two or twenty-three years ago—I am acquainted with prisoner's handwriting—I have

corresponded with him frequently—I have no doubt that this note (produced) is in his handwriting—I received this letter on the morning following that on which it was dated—(Read: Saturday, 29th (post mark, June 29th)—My dear sir,—I am very anxious this morning about Alfred, who has left his lodgings at 40, Duke-street, without letting me know where he is gone to. I am the more anxious, that he met yesterday with an accident in riding; the horse having hit him on the forehead in rearing. I sat with him till 12 last night, and I told him I would call early next morning. I beg you may be so kind as to inform me whether you have heard from Alfred, and with my very best regards to Mrs. Parker and children, believe me, yours very sincerely, Baron de Vidil.")—Young Mr. de Vidil came to my house in Hertfordshire on Saturday morning, the 29th—I am not sure whether he was with me when I received this letter; I think not: certainly not—he did not remain at my house—I think he stayed about three hours.

Cross-examined. Q. This young man has always been of a very peculiar temperament, has he not? A. I hardly know what you mean by "temperament"—I do not know that three or four years ago he was in confinement as a lunatic—I know that he was taken into custody in the Isle of Wight—I believe he was not confined as a lunatic—I was telegraphed for to the Isle of Wight—I understood that he was taken up at 12 o'clock at night—I believe it was partly for having taken some brandy, and being out incapable of taking care of himself; so he told me—he was stated to be a lunatic, but I do not know that that was the charge—I saw the Magistrate—there was an imputation upon him in the Isle of Wight that he was a lunatic—I think that must be four years ago—I am not sure about that—his father was out of England at that time—I think I telegraphed to him—I informed his father of the nature of the charge against him—I think I told him what I am telling you—perhaps you will allow me to say, that when I saw the Magistrate I asked him to let me have the young man home, under my care, and he immediately said, "Will you take care of him?" and gave him to me—probably he had caused a great deal of excitement in the island, but I was not there—I do not recollect taking him down to the boat in a Bath chair; it may be so—I took him immediately to Portsmouth, and telegraphed to his father.

Q. As a matter of fact, supposing this young man had perished on the day when this matter happened, would you and your family have derived the entire benefit? A. I believe none at all, I am not sure—I think not—I do not know that whatever power he had of disposal he had exercised it before that time—I have not seen any will since, or any deed—I have heard of several wilis—I have never heard of any deed—I did not hear of one existing at the time of this occurrence—I do not know of one.

MR. CLERK. Q. Have you had an opportunity of seeing this young man for the last four years? A. Constantly—he has been at Cambridge—the first time he left Cambridge was immediately preceding the event to which the learned gentleman has referred, four years ago—he had no habits of intemperance at that time whatever—I think his intellect remarkably clear—I have seen peculiarities of habit, such as slow walking and peculiar abstracted habits—a stranger would say he was a peculiar person—I believe his mental faculties are perfectly clear and extraordinarily good—he took a first class at Trinity College, and has, since that, passed an examination at that college—as far as I have seen, his intellects are particularly good and sound—he has had delusions about his health—I think he is very fanciful about his health; he is very fond of consulting medical men more

than I think is necessary—that may be called a delusion—I do not know anything to affect his intellects—I have never seen that he has had fancies with regard to persons—I have never seen anything of delusions, except about his health and consulting different medical men.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. What age is he now? A. I am not sure, but I think twenty-four.

GEORGE HARRISON PALMER . I am clerk to Messrs. Gosling, solicitors, of New-street, Spring-gardens—I produce a marriage settlement made upon the marriage of the prisoner with Miss Jackson in 1835—a sum of 20,000l. was settled upon that marriage to her separate use for her life—the prisoner had a life interest in it—the reversion was to any of the children of the marriage upon their attaining twenty-one, or daughters upon marriage—I have also a mortgage of the life interest of the prisoner, by indenture of 17th August, 1844—he assigned the whole of his life interest for the sum of 4,800l. to a client of ours.

WILLIAM RICHARD RIPLEY . I produce the probate of the will of Mr. John Jackson, dated 19th March, 1841—under that will a sum of 6,000l. in the three per cent. consols is left to the executors, who are the trustees, young Mr. de Vidil was to have an absolute interest in it upon attaining twenty-one, and the executors paid it into the Court of Chancery as directed—by a codicil to that will, a further sum of 4,000l. is left upon the same trusts, making together 10,000l. consols.

WILLIAM DYOT BURNABY . I am chief clerk at Bow-street—on 16th July I went down to Twickenham—the prisoner was then in custody—the charge against him was for unlawfully, maliciously, and feloniously cutting and wounding one Alfred John de Vidil, with intent to kill and murder him.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Was the original charge made before the Magistrate at Bow-street? A. It was; and in consequence of the illness of Rivers the prisoner was taken down to Twickenham, and the deposition of Rivers was taken before two of the county Magistrates in the presence and hearing of the prisoner—subsequently, upon a further investigation at Bow-street, the prisoner was committed by Mr. Corrie.

MR. CLERK. Q. Was the prisoner taken down to Twickenham in custody? A. He was; and two Middlesex Magistrates, Mr. Donnythorne and Mr. Murray, were present—they went to the house of Rivers, at Twickenham—he was in bed—the prisoner was attended by his solicitor, Mr. Wontner, and also by counsel, Mr. Sleigh—the witness Rivers was examined that day at Twickenham in the presence and hearing of the prisoner—the prisoner could hear the statement made by Rivers, I think, distinctly, but I read it over after I had taken it down—I administered the oath myself to Rivers in the presence of the two Magistrates—he was cross-examined by the counsel on behalf of the prisoner.

JOHN SPARKS . I am a surgeon residing at Twickenham—I know John Rivers—he lives at a cottage at Twickenham—I have attended him professionally—I last saw him this morning—he is in a very feeble state of health indeed—for the last six weeks he has been unable to be taken out of his bed—he is not able to be brought here to-day.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE objected to the reading of the deposition, upon the ground that by 11 and 12 Vic. c. 42, the whole matter ought to have been taken by the Magistrate before whom the charge was originally made, so that the entire depositions might be perfected and returned by the one Magistrate; instead of which, there appeared to be the intervention of other Magistrate for

the purpose of taking this single deposition; those Magistrates not being the parties before whom the charge was made or by whom the prisoner was ultimately committed.

MR. SLEIGH, on the same side, called the attention of the COURT to the wording of sec. 17 and 18, and urged from those sections that the statute dearly contemplated that the whole proceedings should be before one and the same Magistrate; the words "such Justice," used throughout, applying to the Magistrate before whom the charge was made, that Magistrate being called upon to read over the depositions, and give the prescribed caution to the prisoner, before calling upon him for any statement.

MR. JUSTICE BLACKBURN (without calling upon the other side) was of opinion that it was not intended by the two sections referred to, to confine the admissibility of a deposition to the case of a person having been examined before some Magistrate, who afterwards completed the examination by committal: the common sense and reason of the thing would certainly seem to be this, that when a witness might be in a distant part of the country, or too ill to attend, the Magistrate of that locality should take the examination, in the presence of the accused, and that it should then be returned to the place from whence the accused came; if it should hereafter become important, or if, upon further consideration, there appeared to be anything in the point, he would reserve it; as at present advised the deposition might be read.

The deposition of John Elvers was then read, as follows:—"I live at Rosecottage, Lion-row, Twickenham. I am a labourer. I remember Friday, the 28th of June last, in the evening being at Twickenham; I remember leaving this (my own house) that evening. I was going to my work down by the Thames, by the Duke D'Aumale's; this was about 7 o'clock. I met two gentlemen on horseback, I think the prisoner was one of them; they were riding towards me, and riding side by side, and the youngest was nearest to the pales; I saw the older gentleman strike the younger one a backhanded blow on the forehead; it appeared to me to be like a whiphandle that he struck him with; I could see that it had a knob on the end of it, a shiny knob; when the blow was struck, the young one's hat fell off, and he cried out, "Oh! oh! don't, pray;" I saw the older gentlemen then strike the horse across the head; the younger one rode off as fast as he could, the older one rode after him as fast as he could, and when he got fore right of me he said, "Hoy, hoy! here's your hat;" he tried to get his horse back after the hat, but he would not go; the young one jumped off his horse and ran, and the older our got off his horse and ran after him; the older gentleman was running after the younger one and both horses were loose; I went and picked up the hat, and brought it back to the gentleman it belonged to; I delivered it to the landlord, and he gave me a shilling. I saw a man named William Liscombe the same evening, directly after it had happened, and I told him something; I also told my wife something when I got home that night. I have now looked at the gentleman before me, and I have not the least doubt he is the elder gentleman of the two that I saw on horseback, on the night in question. I now see in the room the younger man that the elder one struck." In answer to a question from the Magistrate, the witness states: "The blow was a very violent one, the young man appeared to be hurt by it; the blood poured down his face when the blow was struck; they were about a hundred yards from me."

Cross-examined. "I saw the two gentlemen just before the blow was struck, and it was immediately upon seeing them that the blow was struck; there is a turn in the lane, and anything that took: place between

the two before turning into the lane I could not see." Signed, "John Rivers—his mark.".

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE to MR. BURNABY. Q. What was the date upon which the information was originally laid at Bow-street? A. 10th July.

FREDERICK WILLIAMSON . I am a sergeant of the detective police—on 15th July I took the prisoner into custody in Scotland-yard—he was then in the custody of some French police-officers—I have produced this whip—I received it from the Baron's valet, at a public-house in the Haymarket where the valet was lodging after the Baron was in custody—I did not go to the Clarendon Hotel to see whether any whip had been left there.

Cross-examined. Q. Was there a document given to you at the time the Baron was handed into your custody? A. Yes—I have it here—I received it from the prisoner.

COURT to ISAAC PERRY. Q. You have stated that the younger gentleman rode the quieter horse of the two? A. Yes—one of the horses was rather larger than the other—the young gentleman rode the biggest of the two.

The Hon. George Barrington, Lieutenant-Colonel Carlton, the Prince Demidoff, Viscount Torrington, and Richard Porter, Esq., deposed to the prisoner's character for humanity and kindness of disposition.

GUILTY of unlawfully wounding. — Confined Twelve Months.

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-693
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceMiscellaneous > sureties

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693. THOMAS NEWCOMB (43), PHILIP POWTER (34), CHARLES WALES (32), and ALFRED SKERRATT (37), were indicted for unlawfully obstructing a public thoroughfare.

MESSRS. SLEIGH and BESLEY conducted the Prosecution.

GEORGE EDWARDS (City-policeman, 343). Since February last my beat has been the lower part of Fleet-street and Bride-lane—during the month of May I saw all the defendants there—they were there with books in their hands, receiving bets, and passing books to the bystanders, containing a list of horses—there were a great many people round them the chiefs part of the time they were there; I mean round each of them: sometimes perhaps half-a-dozen, and sometimes a score—I have seen them there almost every day since February, not every day, from about 11 o'clock or a little after, up to 1, 2, and 3—it is very bad indeed for passengers to get through the lane—it is so crowded, that people cannot get through without they squeeze themselves through; the passage is blocked up—I have noticed vehicles passing—they cannot get through without stopping and shouting for them to get out of the way for a yard or two—the people have been standing in the roadway, collected round the defendants—when vehicles have been passing they have been obliged to squeeze up against the houses to let them through, and to walk behind the vehicles to let them pass forward—the lane is not wide enough at this end for more than one carriage to pass—the footway is not much over a yard or a yard and a half wide—I have had complaints from the inhabitants and people passing up and down—they are obliged to go round instead of going up the lane; they have complained of the nuisance of so many people crowding in the lane—the lane has an opening into New Bridge-street—I do not know that it would save anything to persons going from the north part of Fleet-street to the bridge to go along Bride-lane—if they come into the passage leading to St. Bride's Church, and down by the churchyard, they would save a little—I was on duty there at the latter part of 1851, all 1852, and the early part of 1853—there was more traffic passing through the lane then in the middle of the day than there

is now, because they cannot get through now—the obstruction has been about the same ever since the spring; I have not noticed much difference—have seen the defendants with books in their hands, small books that they hand to one another with cards relating to the horses—I have seen them make entries in their books and I have seen all of them receive money.

Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. Q. Used you to go down there in plain clothes? A. No, in uniform—I am on duty in Fleet-street and part of Bride-lane—I have seen the four prisoners there, in different parts of the lane—I have seen them speaking together sometimes, once or twice—they were standing a little apart, each with a small number of persons round him, about ten or twenty, thick enough to block all the lane up—they were close up together, so that they all joined together through the lane; they were not far enough apart to be separated—they were all standing up and down the lane, passing one from another—each of the persons with books in their hands stood separate from the others with books, having persons round them with whom they were betting—sometimes I have seen a dozen persons, and sometimes more with books, in which they were apparently entering bets; each with a cluster of persons round him, a great many more than ten or twelve—I have never tried to clear the lane—I have asked them to get out of my way a good many times, but they took so very little notice that I do not ask them now, I generally push them out of the way—I was never directed by the City authorities to clear the lane—I never attempted it—it would be impossible for one man to do it.

MR. SLEIGH. Q. At the time these people have had groups about them, has the lane been so crowded by the assemblage of people as to render it inconvenient for persons to pass? A. It has—they have been so close together that they have all joined together—in the early part of the morning they assemble in little groups before the lane gets crowded up with people, but later in the day there is an absence of the groups in the crowd.

JAMES TRIM (City-police-sergeant, 20). In consequence of instructions I received from my superior officers, I went to Bride-lane in the course of May this year—I was there continuously for several days—on those occasions I observed the four defendants there—from 12 o'clock in the day till 2 is the busiest time in the lane—on 6th May, I have got it down in my book, that there were about 400 in the lane, and next day I counted 470 up the lane—upon different days, when I have been there, there was such an assemblage of people as I have spoken of, more or less—the defendants had books in their hands making bets—I have seen them, besides talking to the people in the lane, at other times talking to each other, in the evening—I have not observed the defendants when together making entries in their books—while talking to the other people they have been separate from each other, then each man had a book in his hand—I have seen each of the defendants having a book in his hand talking to the persons in the lane, and apparently making bets with them—at such times the public thoroughfare has been impeded or obstructed, both the footway and carriage way—I have myself witnessed a difficulty on the part of the persons getting through—I have had complaints made by the inhabitants and by passengers.

Cross-examined. Q. Were you sent down there in plain clothes? A. No, in uniform—I was sent to take notes in a book which I have here—I was there in May, and for eight months before that—I was sent in May for the purpose of taking notes—I continued to take notes from time to time—I communicated those notes to the City authorities—I have told these persons to move on—they have moved away when I have told them to do so, each of

them—I have seen one of them go away when the number of persons was getting large—that was Newcomb—I saw him run away one afternoon, so as to avoid having so many people round—when I have asked them to move they have moved about a yard, and immediately my back was turned they stood again—I have endeavoured to clear the lane, along with the constable that has been on duty with me, by walking down the middle and telling them they must get out of the lane, and the instant we pass them they come back again to the same place—I have never taken down a sufficient force to endeavour to clear the lane—I know nothing about our having power to do so—I try to remove the orange-women and all the obstructions that come in my way—I never warned any of these persons that they would get into trouble if they persisted in being there.

MR. SLEIGH. Q. Has the same state of things continued there up to August? A. Yes.

JOHN HAWKS . I carry on business as a builder, at 3, Bride-lane—during May, June, July, and August, I have observed daily a large concourse of people there—on nearly all those occasions I have seen the defendants there with books in their hands, receiving money and making bets—the thoroughfare has been so far obstructed by this congregating of persons, that it has been as difficult to get through it as it would be to get out of a theatre or a church; the crowd has been very great indeed—I have seen persons incommoded by it, struggling with great difficulty to get through—I have taken the dimensions of the lane—it is fifteen feet wide, and sixty or sixty-four feet in length—the crowd is such, that at times the whole of it is blocked up—that is that one half of the lane—there is a bend in it, one half in generally occupied, the other is comparatively free, unless the half nearest Fleet-street is so far full that there is no room for them—many persons have refused to come to me in my business in consequence of this assemblage of persons.

MR. METCALFE here interposed and stated that he did not intend to dispute the facts, but submitted as a matter of law that no joint offence was proved as against the prisoners. MR. JUSTICE BLACKBURN was of opinion that it was a question of fact for the Jury, whether each of the defendants were parties to gathering together the crowd, and so causing the obstruction complained of.

The Jury found the prisoners GUILTY , and they were discharged on their own recognizances to appear and receive judgment if called upon.

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-694
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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694. PHILIPPA EASTCOTT (18) , Feloniously setting fire to the house of Thomas Matthew John West, with intent to injure him.

MR. M'DONNELL conducted the Prosecution.

THOMAS MATTHEW JOHN WEST . The prisoner was in my service as a domestic servant, at 95, Gloucester-place, Kentish-town—I believe She had given my wife notice to leave, but I was then in the country—I went from home on the Monday previous, to 19th July, and on the Wednesday following, my wife came to me at Ramsgate—I returned on Saturday morning, 20th July, by the express train—I went into my bed-room and found the bedstead, the bed-clothing, the bed and part of the mattress burnt; and the paper behind the head of the bedstead was also burnt away, and some sheets and other articles out of the drawers were partially burnt—the wood work over the cupboard was burnt, it had been on fire, and the room door being open, the wind had apparently blown the flames round the room and ignited the Venetian blinds—the webbing of the blinds was burnt, and the blinds had fallen down—one pane of glass was broken, and thirteen or fourteen cracked.

Cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH. Q. Do you say the wood-work was burnt? A. Yes; over the cupboard door it had been scorched and burnt—you could pick it off easily with your fingers—it was not totally destroyed, but more than scorched, it was charred, and the outer part was like a cinder—the wood is still there.

ELIZABETH FAGAN . I live next door but one to the prosecutor—on the evening of 19th July, I saw some smoke coming out of his back bed-room, and I saw the servant (the prisoner) come out of the house and run down the garden with a bundle—she got through the hedge with it, but did not take it with her—I afterwards took it and gave it to the policeman.

MR. WEST (re-examined). The cupboard that was burnt is a fixture in the room; it is fixed to the wall—the wall forms the back of it, and there are wooden shelves and a door—if that wood-work were taken away, the house would still be complete.

MARIA WEST . I am the prosecutor's wife—I left home on Wednesday, 17th July, leaving my mother and the prisoner in charge of the house—I returned on the Saturday morning—I went with my husband into the bed-room—I found the bed very much burnt, and all the side of the room at the back of the bed; all the furniture burnt, and the cupboard very much burnt—the wood-work of the bottom was a little burnt—there were two cupboards in the room, one was very much burnt, and the other had the paint scorched and blistered—there were a great many things in the room burnt, which had been quite safe when I left home.

Cross-examined. Q. I do not understand you that any portion of the walls, or the sides of the room were burnt? A. The side of the cupboard was, and the skirting board that goes round the room—the paint was blistered, the wood was scorched, I call it burnt; it is still there, but it is injured by being burnt.

MR. M'DONNELL. Q. Did any portion of the wood-work appear to have been consumed by fire? A. I should think so—the prisoner had given me notice to leave three weeks before.

PHILLIS WESTBROOK . I live at 12, Gloucester-place, Kentish-town—on the evening, 19th July, I saw some flames coming from Mr. West's bed-room window, and then some smoke—I was at my parlour window—there were some Venetian blinds to Mr. West's room, and they very shortly dropped down—one pane of glass was broken by the flames.

FRANCES LUND . I am the mother of Mrs. West—I was left in charge of the house—on 19th July, I went out about 7 o'clock in the evening, leaving the prisoner alone in the house—I returned about 8, and found the police and firemen in the house—I went up stairs and found the drawers had been opened, and the bed on fire—it was out when I got home—the top of the bed was quite burnt, and all the furniture upon it, mattresses, palliasse, and other things—there were some sheets on the bed, some of which were burnt—I found a candle and candlestick on the landing—I had not given the prisoner directions to do anything requiring the use of fire.

Cross-examined. Q. I suppose there was some fire in some part of the house? A. I should say not—we had had tea at 5 o'clock, and when I left the fire in the kitchen was out—the house is lighted by gas.

SAMUEL DAVEY (Policeman, S 45). I was on duty on 19th July, near the prosecutor's house—about a quarter to 8, I heard a cry of fire, and went and knocked at the door—I was admitted at the front door by a young man—I went upstairs and found the drawers open, and the bed, bedstead, and curtains all on fire, and the paper on the wall at the back of the bed—the

cupboard was also on fire, and the wainscotings on the top of it—the window blinds were down, and the Venetian blinds lying on the floor on fire—I threw some water on the fire and called for some more; it was brought by different parties, and we ultimately got the fire out.


19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-695
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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695. PHILIPPA EASTCOTT (18), was again indicted for stealing a bracelet and other goods, the property of her master; to which she.

PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months.

NEW COURT.—Friday, August 23d, 1861.

PRESENT.—Mr. Ald. Mechi; Mr. Ald. CONDER; and Mr. COMMOS.


Before Mr. Common Serjeant

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-696
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty; Guilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

Related Material

696. HENRY COOPER (28), and FREDERICK HENRY DRAKE (29) , Feloniously forging and uttering a request for the delivery of goods, with intent to defraud; to which Drake


MESSERS. SLEIGH POLAND, and TAYLOR conducted the Prosecution.

FREDRICK HENRY DRAKE (the prisoner). I was formerly a clerk, in the employment of Messrs. Bryant and Hodges, sugar refiners of Fieldgate street—I went into their service in March, about three years ago—I know Cooper, he had a grocer's shop in Aldgate—I first became acquainted with him in the latter end of 1858, but did not become intimate with him at that time—he was aware that I was a clerk in Messrs. Bryant and Hodges service—he has called there two or three times on week-days, and once or twice on Sundays—he called twice on a single Sunday—I lived on the premises—he did not come in when he called on week-days, I saw him outside the door, but he did on Sundays—Messrs. Henderson and Constable, of Great Tower-street, are customers of Bryant and Hodges—before the writing was on this document (produced), I took the blank form from the rack in the sale-room, at Messrs. Henderson and Constable's when I was there on business for my employer—I knew at that time that Henderson and Constable had purchased some sugar of my employers, which was not delivered, a few days before the 24th May—after I had taken it I saw Cooper at a public-house in Whitechapel—I do not think it was by appointment, I cannot say—I do not know the sign of the house, it is opposite Whitechapel church, and is kept by a man named Morton—it is not quite half a mile from Cooper's premises—I had met Cooper there several times before—a person was with him on this occasion, whom he introduced as his brother-in-law—he is a foreigner—his name is Belio—we were there between 12 and 1 in the day—pen and ink was called for and brought—we were in a small back-room at the back of the house—I produced the blank form that I had taken from Henderson and Constable's—I presented it to Cooper, he gave it to his brother-in-law, who filled in the writing that is now on it—previous to that, he had said that he wanted the sugar; and when it was filled up, he said, "If the order is presented, will the goods be delivered?"—I said that they would be—it was an order to deliver to Henderson and Constable—Cooper took it and went away—nothing was said at that time about my receiving money for the sugar—everything on the face of the order was filled in by the brother-in-law—Cooper had told me previously that if the sugar was

sent in, the money would be given—it was to be small amounts, ten shillings or a sovereign—his words were, "I will give you a small sum if the sugars are sent in; I will give you what you want after the sugars are received," or something to that effect—that was in 1859—I have received money from Cooper from time to time in small sums—there was no sale by me of these two tierces of sugar to Cooper—I know Cooper's writing—the body of this receipt (produced) is the carman's I believe, and this "Hy C. not paid, "is Cooper's—when I saw Cooper at Bryant and Hodge's premises on week-days, I used to go with him to the Prince of Orange public-house next door—(Order read: "London, 90, Great Tower-street, E.C.; 24th May, 1861.—Messrs. Bryant and Hodges—please deliver to bearer two tierces T & H. 19/4, Statham, for Henderson and Constable, W. H. P.")—there is a William Henry Perrins in the service of Henderson and Constable.

Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. How long were you living at Bryant and Hodges'? A. Two years, as a clerk at 80l. per annum—I lived on the premises—I had a bonus of 20l. when we took stock—before that I was at Mr. Brown's of Shadwell, but had left there two years—before I went to Bryant and Hodges, I went to a banker's in the City, Temple-bar—I was there twelve months—I left because they wished to reduce their staff; I mean to say that that was the only reason—it was Praeds, and they wished to reduce their staff by one man, and I was the victim, being the junior clerk—that was in 1856 or 1857—on my oath that was the reason I was discharged; there was no other reason that I am aware of—I was not charged with robbing them, I swear that—my father had not to pay a penny for me—for the other twelve months, I was some time at home, and afterwards I went to the West India-docks as clerk—I remained there very nearly twelve months, and left to accept the situation at Bryant and Hodges—I had nearly 30s. a week at the docks—I will not swear that my father never had to pay money which I have been charged with stealing; that was for sugar that Cooper had—my father paid the money on account of Messrs. Budget—I was not charged with stealing the sugar; but my father had to pay for it, because Cooper issued the order on Mr. Brown's sugar—house and had the sugar—that was in May, 1860—my father paid about 70l. to Messrs Budget, who are large wholesale grocers—I was with Bryant and Hodges at that time—they did not charge me with stealing the sugar, but my father paid 70l. for it, because Cooper had the sugar for an order he had no business to have, and because Brown's bought a hogshead of sugar, of which Cooper had some—the money was paid to Messrs. Budget, because they had bought sugar of Brown's—Cooper forged the order, and I was a perfectly innocent party—my father paid the 70l., because Mr. Brown would have been robbed of it if he had not paid for it—I cannot say whether I should have been given in custody for stealing it—it was not in my writing—it was to prevent my being prosecuted with Cooper, that my father paid the 70l.—I was not charged with stealing it, but I was aware that Cooper had the two hogsheads from that warehouse—I was not aware that Mr. Brown would prosecute me.

COURT. Q. What complaint was made of your being mixed up in the transaction? were you charged with having some share in the transaction? Yes; there was an order in writing by Cooper for the two hogsheads—they were traced to him, and I was accused as having been a friend of coper's, and having had something to do with the two hogsheads.

MR. RIBTON. Q. Were you charged with stealing them? A. No; I was charged with being in collusion with Cooper in stealing them—I said

deliberately, on my oath, that I was not charged with stealing them, became I have not been accustomed to cross—examination—I adhere to what I said about Praed's bank—on my oath that was the reason I left Praed's—they were agents for a country bank, and that was removed to Jones Lloyds; and Mr. Fane thought it right to reduce the establishment by the junior clerk—I was apprehended on the 9th or 10th July, for obtaining sugars and treacle by false pretences—the prisoner charged me with stealing them by false pretences—that had nothing to do with this sugar; this was not found out then—I did not know all about it till I was taken in custody; I was aware of it, but I was not charged with it—I was also charged with stealing treacle from Messrs Bryant and Hodges—I sold that to Mr. Pennart—I represented to him that I was dealing on my own account; he was await that I was a clerk, and trusting to that representation, be bought the track of me—I also sold some to a man named Garrett, a grocer of Mile-end—I represented to him that I was trading on my own account, and he bought of me, believing that to be so—that was in 1859—he bought two hogsheads—I had only one dealing with him—I did not forge an order for them, they were delivered without any order—I stole them from Bryant and Hodges—I have had no dealings with him since—there is no other that I am aware of—I know a person named Swinge—I sold him two puncheons of treacle at the latter end of 1860—I told him that I was dealing on my own account—I bought it of Henderson and Constable, and it was delivered from Bryant and Hodges—it was bought; I paid the parties that I bought it of, Henderson and Newsom; they are two firms—I bought it on my own account, and it was delivered from Bryant and Hodges in my name—I bought it from their grocers, who buy of Bryant and Hodges—it had not been delivered to those grocers—they had bought a parcel, of which this formed a part—I bought it of Henderson and Constable, and it was delivered from Bryant and Hodges in my name, who were aware of the transaction, they saw it—I mean they saw the delivery order which was sent to Swing and to Pennell, a proper authority—they were aware that I was dealing on my own account, because they could see the order—I did not tell them, but the order was made out in my name; it was a legitimate transaction—the first charge made against me, was for stealing the sugar or treacle that I sold to Pennart—they were not aware of that transaction—what you are alluding to now was delivered without any delivery order—I did not steal the sugar that was sold to Swinge; I paid Newsom for it—I did not sell to anybody else—I represented to these people that I was dealing on my own account—I have had about three transactions altogether with Pennart, they were for treacle—I never signed the orders for the delivery of them, or of any of the things that I sold; not for treacle—I signed one order upon Budgett for sugar; that was the only one—I got several signed for me; Cooper signed them all—the parties where I bought them signed the others; they were legitimate transactions, and were signed by the clerk in the usual way—the treacle transactions are legitimate, the sugar transactions are not—I am charged with stealing Pennart's—that is the last oue on which I was apprehended—since I went into Bryant and Hodges' establishment I have been dealing with three persons, representing that I was dealing on my own account, Pennart, Garrett, and Swinge—it began in 1859—was taken and charged with Pennart—I heard that the officers had been to Mr. Cooper—I do not know that he had stated that he bought the sugar in the regular way from me—I did not know before I was apprehended, that he said so—I was not aware before I gave evidence at the

police-court that he had stated so—when I was in the dock at the police-court I heard Mr. Hodges state that he had been to Cooper's, and that Cooper said he had bought the sugar of me in the ordinary way, I representing that I was authorised to deal with it—that was at the previous remand, before I gave my evidence—I have dealt with Cooper as a grocer, buying things for my own consumption, but that was not my first acquaintance with him—what Cooper said to me was, "I will give you what you want"—nothing was said about" a small sum, "I was wrong in saying that—when I went to Cooper first, I did not represent to him that I had authority to trade a little on my own account—I did make that representation to the others—I showed him an invoice of Newsom's, of goods sold to me—that was not for any particular purpose—it was not for the purpose of satisfying him that I was dealing, and had authority to deal on my own account—I cannot say for what purpose—I admit having shown him the invoice—I may have mentioned Pennart's name, but not with the object of his applying to him to satisfy himself that I was dealing on my own account; it was not for any purpose at all—I cannot remember whether I mentioned any other name—I did not mention Garrett's name—I do not remember whether I mentioned Swinge's name—I asked him on one occasion to pay to Newsom's for me a balance of 24l., which he, Cooper, was indebted to me for sugar, and I believe he paid it; he has a receipt—I met him at the Prince of Orange public-house—I was negotiating for the purchase of that public-house, and an action was threatened against me in reference to it—Cooper introduced me to Mr. Buchannan, an attorney—he did not call on me in reference to this matter more than once—I do not recollect that he was advising me also with regard to some domestic affairs—I did not ask his advice with regard to my domestic affairs—I swear he never called on me in reference to my domestic differences—I am married—I did not abscond—I left Bryant and Hodges' before I was apprehended—they had given me notice to leave, and the time had expired—I was living at Rams-gate—I was there a few days before I was apprehended—I know a carman Darned Scott; he has often delivered treacle and sugar that has been obtained by my orders, by three or four orders, to Pennart, and other people—this order was signed between 12 and 1, at the Angel and Crown, White-chapel—I had been there about twice—it was in a small parlour—you may term it a private room—I remained there ten minutes—it was on 24th May—I do not know whether the landlord was at home—several barmen were behind the bar—they did not know me—I am not aware whether there was a landlady—I stayed there about ten minutes, and then left.

MR. POLAND. Q. You say that Cooper gave you small sums of money when sugars were received by him? A. Yes; I have received small sums from Cooper when sugars were delivered—I never sold him any sugar—the small sums were on account of having the sugar delivered to him—I asked Cooper to pay Newsom 24l.—that was the balance of the whole of the treacle—it was a debt to me on account of sugars which Cooper had received—I did not receive from Cooper the value of the sugars, or half the value—Cooper has been in the habit of receiving sugar through my instrumentality since 1859—I made out no invoices to him for sugar—my father is not a a partner of Mr. Brown—he is in his service—there were two hogsheads delivered to Cooper—I had no portion of that sugar—Cooper wrote the order, but I was in collusion with him in the matter—that was from Brown, on account of Budgctt—I know that Budgett applied for the two hogsheads of sugar, and it was stated that it was delivered—inquiries were then made

about it, and my father spoke to me about it—he paid that 70l. in order that Mr. Brown should know nothing of the transaction—that 70l. was the value of the two hogsheads—Bryant and Hodges had nothing at all to do with them—the charge before the Magistrates of obtaining sugar by false pretences was with regard to these false orders.

PETER PARKIN . I am in partnership with Mr. Statham, of Crutched Friars, as master carman—this order was given me by Cooper about the 24th or 25th; it was Saturday, which was the 25th, I think—he merely said that he wanted them up that day, or something to that effect; or, "Let me have them as soon as you can"—I knew him as a grocer in Aldgate—part of this receipt (produced) is my writing; it is the receipt which was sent with the goods—it is all my writing except the "H. C. not paid"—I gave directions to Mr. Elliott to fetch that sugar from Bryant and Hodges, and take it to Cooper's.

Cross-examined. Had you known Drake any time? A. Yes; I cannot say how long—we have received a great many orders of this sort on Bryant and Hodges, and other houses—I do not know whether we have received any of Drake—I know Drake by his being engaged at Bryant and Hodges'—I do not know his writing—it is very likely I have seen it—I do not know that I ever saw him write—I cannot tell you whether this W H P is like his flourish—Read: "W. Cooper, Aldgate, two tierces of sugar, Bryant. H. C. Not paid. 25/5/61. Carting 6s.".

WILLIAM ELLIOTT . I am a carman, and was in the employment of Parkton and Statham—in May last I received a delivery order from Mr. Parkton, but cannot swear that this is it—I went with it to Bryant and Hodges', got two tierces of sugar, and left the order there—I took the two tierces to my master's first, and next day took them to Cooper's in Aldgate—Mr. Parkton gave me this other paper to show that I delivered them—Cooper signed it, "H. C. not paid"—that is the cartage not paid there is no number in Aldgate on it, but I had been there once before.

Cross-examined. Q. Did you know Mr. Drake? A. No—I do not know his writing.

WILLIAM HENRY PERRINS . I am buyer to Henderson and Constable, wholesale grocers, of 90, Great Tower-street—I am in the habit of signing orders for the delivery of goods—this signature, W. H. P. is not my writing, or written by my authority—this is the ordinary form of one of our delivery orders for sugar—it is different from the others—it is taken out of a book.

Cross-examined. Q. If anybody took that without authority, I suppose it would be a case of stealing? A. I should say so—Drake would have no authority whatever to take it off the rack—I know Drake—he has never bought things of Henderson and Constable to my knowledge—I must have known it if he had, because he would most likely have bought of myself—I do not know his writing, though I think I must have seen him write—I think I must have received letters from him—this seems like his writing, but I cannot swear to it—I cannot say whether these initials are the character of his writing, or the style of his flourish—I cannot form the slightest opinion of it—I cannot tell that this is not the signature of some other clerk in the establishment, but it is not our delivery form.

COURT. Q. What is it then? A. It is a document which was made use of—it is lithographed, and is filled up for sugar and sent to our refiners, or for anything we wish—it is not a delivery order—this (produced) is a delivery order—they are bound up with counterfoils.

MR. RIBTON. Q. Could anybody steal this more easily than a delivery

order? A. Yes; this is not my writing—if any of the clerks had done it under the idea that he had a right to sign my initials, he would not have done it on this form.

MR. POLAND. Q. How long have you been in the service? A. Only a few months—the delivery orders filed would be accounted for in the book by the counterfoil—they are not numbered—it is like a cheque-book.

HENRY CONSTABLE . I am a partner in the firm of Henderson and Contable, of 90, Great Tower-street—I do not think this delivery order is in the writing of any of my clerks—this (produced) is the proper form of delivery order—a counterfoil is kept of every delivery order made out by my clerks—there is no counterfoil of the two tierces of sugar on 24th May.

Cross-examined. Q. Do you know Drake's writing? A. No; I never saw it to my knowledge—I will not take upon myself to swear that this is not the writing of any of my clerks.

MR. POLAND. Q. Would you know whether Drake purchased anything at your place? A. No; every transaction does not find its way to me.

JAMES HARVEY . I have known Drake for the last three years—I know his writing—I do not think this delivery order is in his writing.

Cross-examined. Q. Would you swear it is not? A. I am almost positive it is not—this is his writing, and so are all these papers (produced)—I do not think these initials, W. H. P., are in the character of Drake's writing—I do not think this P is in the style of his flourishing—I do not see any resemblance to it—I have never seen him make a letter P, in this form—he writes a free, bold hand; but write as free as he may, I do not think it is his—I know Cooper—I have not gone to him with samples of sugar, with Drake or at any time.

MR. POLAND. Q. Have you seen Drake write frequently during the last three years? A. Yes.

SYDNEY BRYANT HODGES . I am a member of the firm of Bryant and Hodges—Drake has been in our service three years—I have seen him write many times—my attention has been called to this delivery order, and I am quite certain that it is not in his writing.

Cross-examined. Q. Was this one of the last charges investigated. A. Yes; the first charge I believe was against Drake for stealing sugar, and Cooper for receiving it—there were five or six indictments—this came in with the other cases, but it happened to be the last before the Magistrate—believe it was one of the last—Drake was then examined; this was the only one upon which Drake was examined—on all the other charges he stood in the dock and heard me give my evidence—I called upon Cooper and he told me he had been dealing with Drake, who had represented that he had authority to sell—he did not show me an invoice as a guarantee of his dealings on his own account—he showed me no invoice of Newsom's—I never, at any period of the transaction, saw Newsom's invoice to Drake—he did not tell me that Drake had represented that he was dealing with him—he represented that Drake said he had permission to buy sugar of our customers and sell again, getting sixpence or a shilling by them, and he gave me an account of his dealings with Drake—I have not got it, my attorney has—I did not say so before, because I am placed here to give you a plain answer to all your questions—Drake was given in custody on the Tuesday afternoon that Cooper handed, me that list—I saw him first on the Monday, and got the list on the Tuesday—I called on Tuesday morning, at 10 o'clock, by appointment, but had to call again in the after part of the day, and then he gave me the list, and on that evening Drake was brought up from Rams—

gate in custody—the case was then left in the hands of my solicitors—there were two remands before Drake gave evidence.

MR. POLAND. Q. Is the list that Cooper gave you lost? A. It has been mislaid—I have tried to find it, but have been unsuccessful—I have made every inquiry about it—it was handed to our solicitors or to the accountant, Mr. Kemp, and I have not seen it since—this (produced) is a copy of it—it gives me an account of his transactions with Drake—the total of it is 1, 352l. 0s. 4d—I did not know of any of the transactions mentioned on this paper until I saw it—it is for goods supplied by Drake to Cooper between May 12th, 1860, and 22d, July, 1861—Drake had no authority to deal on his own account for sugar from us—no purchases during those dates were made of us by Drake—he had no authority to buy sugars of our customers and sell them again.

WILLIAM SUTCLIFFE . I am in the service of Messrs. Bryant and Hodges—Drake was a clerk there—I know Cooper's shop in Aldgate—I used to go there sometimes with letters and messages to Drake from Cooper, and brought back answers—I have seen them together at the shop, and next door to the sugar-house, the Prince of Orange public-house, since March or April, 1860—I know Cooper's brother-in-law Belio—I have seen him with them once or twice at Cooper's shop—I used to see them at 10 o'clock at night after I left the premises.

ROBERT JAMES . I am barman to Mr. Morton, who keeps the Angel and Crown—I have known the prisoners since Christmas—I have seen them in my house sometimes three or four times a week, and sometimes there was another party with them, but not very often—they used our coffee-room that is the back room—it looks into a court leading into Osman-street—they have asked for pen and ink—they would remain about half an hour—they used to come between 11 and 1—I might know the other man if I saw him.

Cross-examined. Q. How often have you seen them there? A. Three or four times a week, sometimes for about two months, counting from when I first went there; but I missed them afterwards—I am not there now—I left last week—they were there every week some days, and stayed half an hoar, sometimes less—I did not take a note of it—I noticed them because I used to have to run up from the cellar to serve them—there is a barman and a potman—Mr. Bennett is the foreman—he was there, and must have seen them—there have been two or three potman there since—I am barman—the potman is not here—I left last Saturday—I was not turned away, I chose to leave—the officer came to me the beginning of last week about giving evidence, and I told him what I could swear—he asked me if I had seen them there, and I told him what I have told you—before I was a barman I was apprentice to a shipwright at Wapping, for four years—from there I went to my brother's at Marylebone, a licensed victualler—I was there two years as barman, and then went to Mr. Morton's—I am now lodging on Tower-hill—I have only a sleeping-room there.

MR. POLAND. Q. Are you quite sure that these are the two men? A. Yes; I have fetched pen and ink every time they have been there.

CATHERLINE MEYER . I am the wife of Ludovic Meyer, the proprietor of the Prince of Orange public-house, which is next door to Bryant and Hodges sugar factory—I have known the prisoners for the last twelve months, and have seen them together for a minute or two in the private bar—they were there on an average once or twice a week—Cooper sometimes came alone, and asked for Mr. Drake, and I sent for him from the sugar refinery, and told him that Cooper wanted him, and he came in a minute or two.

PORTER WILLIAM DUNNAWAY (Policeman, H 129). I went to Cooper's shop on 8th July, and again on 15th, and took him in custody—I found this paper (produced) at the shop—I said, "Mr. Cooper, you know me"—he said, "Yes;" I said, "I am going to take you into custody for stealing and receiving sugar to the amount of 2,000l. belonging to Bryant and Hodges, and I am going to ask you a few questions, which you need not answer, without you like, because might have to use them against you again"—I asked him if he had been to the Prince of Orange, next door to Bryant and Hodges' sugar—house, for the purpose of meeting Drake—he said that he never had—I said, "The landlady says you have"—he said, "I shall answer you no more questions without it is through my solicitor"—he desired me to let go of him—I told him I should do nothing of the kind, it was a very serious charge, and I should not give him an opportunity of getting away—going to the station he said that he had been to the public—house on two or three occasions, but not often—I do not know Cooper's brother Belio—I have made inquiries, but have never been able to see him—I had taken Drake in custody before that at Ramsgate.

Cross-examined. Q. When you mentioned the name of Meyer, did not he say that he had been there? A. No; he said that he had never been there—it was after I mentioned Meyer's name that I mentioned the name of the public—house, and the landlord's name—I mean to say that I mentioned the landlord's name in the first instance.

COURT. Q. Did you say, "The landlord, Mr. Meyer, says you have?" A. Yes—I was with Mr. Hodges on 8th July, when he first saw Cooper—I apprehended Cooper on the 15th—I found him at his place, a grocer's shop. (The list given by Cooper to Mr. Hodges was here put in. It consisted of hogsheads and tierces of sugar told from May 12th, 1860, to June 22d, 1861, and amounted to 1,352l. 0s. 4d.).

MR. RIBTON called

DAVID KING . I am a builder, and am a Common Councilman—I live at 5, Mitre-street—I have known Cooper ten years—he is a very hard-working, industrious tradesman—I have always had the impression that he was a very honest man—that is my general knowledge of his character.

Cross-examined by MR. POLAND. Q. Do you know his brother-in-law, Belio? A. I do not—I have only had business transactions with Cooper, living in the neighbourhood.

MR. RIBTON. Q. You never had tea with him? A. No.

MR. POLAND. Q. Or dinner? A. No—I have not heard of Belio, I am not aware of the name—I know that Cooper was bankrupt last year—I do not know whether it was early in the year, but I think it was—I am a creditor to the estate—I have not the slightest knowledge when the certificate was granted—I have received no dividend—the certificate was, I believe, second class—I have not the slightest recollection of the date—it was some months after the bankruptcy—I not only was a creditor, but I am a creditor a second time.

MR. RIBTON. Q. Any honourable man may be unfortunate; that does" not alter your opinion of his honesty? A. No—I was a creditor to about 28l., and about 10l. or 12l. the second time.

WILLIAM HEMS . I am an ironmonger, of Aldgate, and Whitechapel—I We known Cooper ten or eleven years, and always considered him an honest man—I have heard of his bankruptcy—that has not altered my opinion of him, or my confidence in him.

Cross-examined. Q. Did you visit him? A. Not at all—I do not know.

his family, or his brother-in-law Belio—I live opposite to him—I cannot tell you the date of his bankruptcy—I was not a creditor—it was about the early part of last year—I do not know what certificate was granted.

THOMAS SALTER . I am a hatter, of Aldgate—I have known Cooper seven, eight, or nine years—I have heard the evidence given by the witnesses, and agree with them as to his character—his bankruptcy has not altered my opinion of him—we are all subject to misfortune.

Cross-examined. Q. Are you a neighbour of his? A. I live nearly opposite to him—he is married—I do not know Mr. or Mrs. Belio, and never knew such persons existed till I came into Court—the bankruptcy was at the beginning of last year—the shop was shut up, but was opened a short time afterwards—it might be July, or August, or" it might be November.

MR. RIBTON. Q. They do not usually shut up shops unless the bankrupt is an absconding bankrupt? A. No.

WILLIAM HENRY HARDING . I am a boot and shoe manufacturer—I have known Cooper about nine years—I have not taken tea with him, but have seen him constantly—I always considered him a highly respectable, straight forward, honest man—his unfortunate bankruptcy does not alter my opinion of him in the least.

Cross-examined. Q. Were you a creditor under the bankruptcy? A. No—my shop is at 112, Whitechapel—I did not visit him—I have had business transactions with him—he bought boots of me, and I bought grocery—I know none of his relations.

Drake, also received a good character.


MR. POLAND stated that the prosecutor recommended Drake to mercy, believing him to have been led into the crime entirely by Cooper; that they found Drake's statement to be the truth, and that he had concealed nothing from them.

COOPER— Five Years" Penal Servitude.

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-697
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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697. FREDERICK HENRY DRAKE was again indicted for unlawfully obtaining 4 hogsheads of sugar by false pretences; to which he

PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Eighteen Months.

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-698
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceMiscellaneous > fine; Imprisonment > penal servitude

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698. WILLIAM WRIGHT (37), was indicted for wilful and Corrupt perjury. MESSRS. COOPER and LEWIS conducted the Prosecution.

The evidence was of a nature totally unfit for publication.

GUILTY .— Fined 1s., and Three Years' Penal Servitude.

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-699
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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699. THOMAS QUILTER (24) , Stealing, whilst employed under the Post Office, a post letter, containing 3 pieces of crotchet work, the property of her Majesty's Postmaster-general.

MESSRS. CLERK and METCALFE conducted the Prosecution, (See page 437.).

EMMA KEMP . I live at Maltby, near Rotherham—on 7th July, I received a letter from my sister Hannah, containing some crotchet-work, which I copied and sent back to her—I put it into an envelope, addressed Miss Kemp, Morley's Hotel, Trafalgar-square, London, and posted it at the Maltby post-office—these (produced) are the pieces of crotchet—work which I in closed—these are the fragments of the letter—they have been pasted together.

THOMAS BURRELL COOK . I am inspector of letter-carriers at the Western Central Office, Holborn—the letter appears to have been posted at Rother-ham, on 11th July—it bears the stamp of the Western Central Office of

12th July—it would arrive there that morning—the prisoner was a sorter there that morning—this is the attendance-book (produced)—each carrier signs it—he sorts and delivers letters from that office—his walk is Gray's-inn-road—this letter is in the Leicester-square walk—it is not a letter for his delivery, but for a different part of the town—it might have come into his delivery in the course of sorting the letters at the sorting tables, and he should have sorted it to the Leicester-square walk.

The prisoner, who had been found by a Jury to be "mute of malice," being asked by the Court whether he had any questions to put, replied, "I have nothing to say."

HARRIETTS KEMP . In July last, I was staying with my mistress at Morley's Hotel—on 10th July, I wrote to my sister, and inclosed a piece of crotchet work—I expected to receive it back again, but did not—this is it (produced)—I know it by a particular stain upon it; I think it is port wine.

Prisoner. I have nothing to say.

WILLIAM SMEE . I am a constable, attached to the post-office—on 12th July, I received instructions to go to the West Central Office, in Holborn, and placed myself in a position to command the water-closets, in the base of the building—I could not be seen from the water-closets—about half-past 6 in the morning, the prisoner went to closet No. 5—he bolted the door, sat down on the seat without undoing his clothes, and took five or six letters from one of his pockets inside his coat, and placed them on the seat by his side—he took one up and examined it, took a piece of rag from his waistcoat pocket, wetted it with his mouth, and tried to wet the gum on the outside of the envelope; he then took his knife and tried to open it with the blade—he succeeded in opening one or two, without tearing the paper, and one or two he broke open and tore the letter and envelope into small pieces, and then threw them down the pan—those which he succeeded in opening I afterwards saw in his hand, refastened, and he put them in his coat pocket, after remaining there twenty minutes—I communicated with a plumber, named Blackburn, about half an hour after the prisoner left, and I afterwards saw the fragments of a letter, addressed to Miss Kemp, in Lia possession, and of two or three other letters—they were all given to Mr. Gardiner—when the prisoner had concluded his evening delivery that day, I followed him, and took him in custody on another charged took him to the Post Office, searched him, and found these three pieces of crotchet in his waistcoat pocket—one piece was stained, apparently with wine, as it now appears—he was asked, in my presence, where he got them from, and said that he found them one day when he was on his walk betweeen Frederick-street and Hampton-street, Gray's-inn-road—I asked him when—he said, "About a month ago.".

WILLIAM BLACKBURN . I am a plumber, attached to the Post Office—on 12th July, I examined the pan of water-closet No. 5, and found the fragmente of three or four letters, one of which I put together, and found it to he a letter to Miss Kemp—I gave them all to Mr. Gardiner.

Prisoner's Defence. I have nothing at all to say.

GUILTY .— Four Years' Penal Servitude.

THIRD COURT—Friday, August 23d, 1861.


Before Robert Malcolm Kerr, Esq.

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-700
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty; Guilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude; Imprisonment

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700. CHARLES LOCKE (22), and JOHN RICHARDS (16) , Stealing 12 vegetable cutters, and 1 box, the property of Richard Barber, and another, the masters of Richards. Other counts for receiving; to which.


MR. METCALPE conducted the Prosecution.

JOHN RICHARDS (the prisoner). I have pleaded guilty to this indictment—I was in the service of Messrs. Barber and Groom, who carry on a very large business at Union—court, Holborn—ill, as wholesale tin—plate workers"—I have been in their service about two years—I had to go on errands, and to look out orders—amongst the stock there were patty pans and sandwich—boxes, and all sorts of tin articles of that description—I have known the prisoner Locke ever since I have been in the employment—he was in their employment as a workman when I first went there—he has left about fifteen months—he then set up for himself; a retail tin—plate worker's shop—I believe it was in Albetnarle-street, Clerkenwell, but I am not certain—I saw him one morning after he had left the service, as I was going to work, about fifteen months ago—it was after he had opened his shop—he said to me, "Are you still at Barber and Groom's now?"—I said, "Yes"—he said, "You have been there a long time, haven't you?" and I told him how long I had been there—it was about six months then—he said, u You must come and see us some of these fine days; any time when you are passing the shop"—I said, "I do not know where it is"—he said, "Oh, it is in Little Britain; you will see a large red board outside; it is No. 71"—I happened to be passing that very morning, and as I came back I called—I went in and sat down in the back parlour—it was about 11 o'clock in the morning—he said, "Can you get me a knob for 8 tea-pot, I have got a very nice one?"—I hesitated, and said I would not get it for him—he said, "Well, come again when you are passing"—I went again about two or three days afterwards, and he asked me again to get him a knob for a tea-pot, and I got it for him, from Barber and Groom's—I took it out of the stock that day, and gave it to him the next day—he did not at that time give me anything for it—when he asked me to get it had some cocoa and biscuits, and I have had wine there at different times—the next thing I got for him was some solder—he asked me to get it—it was only a small piece, not a cake, as we call it—he gave me something for it, but I cannot remember just now how much it was—he next asked me to get a few tart pans for him—he said, "You know, those nice little round ones;" and I got them for him, and from that time he always asked me to get him different little things, and I got them for him—this extended over, it may be, twelve months—I used to take them two or three times a week, in the front of my apron—I have taken as many as six dozen pattypans at one time—they are these little round things (produced)—I could not say at all how many of those I have taken altogether—I could not give you any adequate idea—I have taken as many as three or four gross—I have taken other things also; these, which are called fancy pans, and some of these sandwich tins, about two dozen, it may be—I have taken two boxes of vegetable cutters—the Bolder was stamped with the letter M deeply cut in—I have afterwards taken that in cakes—I have taken two cakes, one at a time—it has been melted by Mr. Locke when I have been there; a whole piece melted, and then cast down, and he has used it—I have seen nothing done to the stamp—I have had 3d. or 6d. on these occasions—the most I ever had was 2s., and that was only one time—I did not take any thing at that time—I used to go two or three times a day—I did not take

goods every time I went—3d. a dozen was specified between us as the price for these patty pans; 3d. each for the sandwich boxes; 5d. a pound for a cake of solder—a cake used to weigh two pounds very often—3d. a dozen was the price for the fancy pans—on the Monday before I was taken in custody I went to the prisoner—I thought at that time that I was suspected, and told him so—he said, "Oh! it is all right, the man that has been and told can't swear to it, because he never saw me give you any money, neither did he see you give me any goods"—he was speaking of Mr. Biyth, a man who worked for him—Iliad not seen him there on that day, but I have at other times when I have been backwards and forwards—he used to work there—I have seen him when I have taken things.

Cross-examined by MR. SMITH. Q. When you brought solder to this man, and he saw the letter M on it, did not he tell you to bring no more? A. Never—I do not recollect his saying so—I know the witness Blyth—he was a servant of Locke's—I have never, that I am aware of, had any conversation with Blyth with regard to bringing things to the prisoner's—once I had an agreement with Blyth—that was not before the prisoner spoke to me at all—I had been with the prisoner some time—Blyth has asked me if ever I brought any goods to Locke, and I have denied it—it was not Blyth who first induced me to take things from the prosecutors—he did so once—that was about last February—it was at all times of the day, between 10 o'clock in the morning and half-past 6 in the evening that I took these things—I do not know whether he carries on any other occupation than this at his shop—I do not think he does—I do not know that he attends the theatres in the morning—I know he acts at them in the evening sometimes—I swear that it was to the prisoner, and not to Blyth, that I took these things, and with the prisoner that I had the conversation—Locke told me that Blyth was discharged from his place—I sold Blyth some patty pans—the things that I brought were quite new, not damaged—I do not swear that I sold those stamped ones, but I did those fluted ones—these (pointing them out) are the things that I sold—there is no mark on them—I can swear to the sandwich boxes, here is a mark upon them—they were new when I took them, but they have been in his shop some time, and have got damaged—they are damaged now—here are some patty pans that I can swear to as having sold myself—they are damaged and dirty now, but they were not like that when I took them—I swear that they are the things that I took—I can swear that, because no one else makes these things; I have heard Mr. Barber say so—there is no particular mark on them—these vegetable cutters are in a dirty and unshakeable condition, and I believe they were when I took them—the things were not for the most part odd lots—I took various sizes, and the sizes have got mixed—I used to take them in dozens—I told Blyth that I was working at Wilson's—that was not true—I never told the prisoner that I was working at Wilson's—I swear that he never told me not to come near" the place again, when he saw the M on the solder.

MR. METCALPE. Q. How long before you were taken into custody had you taken any with the M on it? A. I do not think I had taken it fora month or six weeks—I took ft every time with the M on it—I told Blyth I was working at Wilson's, that he might not know where I was working—the prisoner knew very well where I was working.

JAMES BLYTH . I reside at 8, Duke-street, Smithfield, and am a tin-plate worker, and worked for Locke at his shop, 71, Little Britain, for five months—I know the last witness—I have often seen him at the shop—he used to come there two or three times a day sometimes, in some weeks—I first saw him there when I first went to work there, and I saw him continually during—

all the time I was there, sometimes two or three times a day; sometimes there might be two or three days without his coming—I have seen him bring these patty pans with him, none of the other things, only the patty pans he used not to take them out where I was—he used to go into the front shop—I have seen him take patty pans out of his pocket, and after he has gone, I have seen large quantities there that were not there before he came—they used to go in together, leaving me in the back shop—I have also seen sandwich boxes brought by him—I have seen him take them out of his pocket, and give them to Locke—I have never seen Locke give him any money—I have heard Locke talk about money—I have seen Richards call and ask him for the money, and he would say, "Call at such a time, and I will pay you"—Richards would call, and they would go into the front shop together, and he would go away satisfied, without making any remark—I do not remember hearing anything said about prices at any time—I have seen part of a piece of solder that Richards brought, that is all—that was about five weeks, I think, before Locke was taken—I saw part of the letter M stamped deeply in it—part of it had been used—it was part of a square piece—I have never received any myself from Richards—I never had any transaction with him.

Cross-examined. Q. You persist in saying that you never received any patty pans from Richards? A. Never—I never ordered any—if he says I did, he is telling that which is untrue—I never induced him to take anything at all—I was in Court just now when he was giving his evidence—I heard him say that I had induced him, and that he had sold me patty pans—that is untrue—I have been convicted at the Thames police—court for having a piece of lead in my possession—that is the only time—the lead belonged to a person of the name of Driver, in the Minories, where I worked for two years—when I was at Locke's I used to go to Mr. Driver's to work for him sometimes, to oblige him, and then I was found with the lead—he discharged me—I then went to Mr. Locke, who took me directly I came out of prison—he did not keep my wife and family while I was in prison—he did not discharge me at all—he was slack, and had nothing to do, and he said that I might get what work I could myself, and come and use his tools—I left him at the end of the week before he was taken into custody—I have heard the money jink, but I never saw it pass between them—I never saw Richards bring any of this sort (pointing them out), only the round ones—I do not know whether there is any private mark on them at all—Richards took them from his pocket—I have heard him swear that he carried them in the front of his apron—I did not always see him when he came—what I saw he took from his pocket.

MR. METCALFE. Q. Did you give information to the police about this? A. I did, on the Saturday before Locke was taken, the Saturday after I was discharged—I thought first to go to the police, but I went up to the establishment—it was past the business hour—I saw the housekeeper, and went from there to the station.

MR. SMITH. Q. Do you recollect having been sent for 10s. on any occasion, and keeping 5s.? A. On the Saturday night before I was discharged I had got a job at Hudson's hotel in Bow-lane, and I got 10s. from Hudson, but not belonging to Locke—I gave him 5s. which belonged to him, and the other 5s. belonged to me—it was a partnership concern—Locke used to go to rehearsals in the day—he used to go sometimes about 10 o'clock, and come back sometimes in about two hours.

MR. METCALFE. Q. What theatre used he to go to?A. Sadler's Wells—he used to go and perform sometimes.

COURT. Q. You saw Richards at the very outset? A. Yes, when I first went there—I suspected that the goods he brought were not honestly come by about three months before I gave information, he began to bring them in such large quantities—I said nothing during those three months—I just bad a suspicion, and I did not know whether I could confirm it or not—I thought I had better find out where Richards worked—I never knew till a month before Locke was taken, when Locke and Richards had a break out about 5s. that was owing, and Locke told him not to come any more; be threatened him with the police if he did—Richards then came to me and opened his mind about it—that was the first time I knew he worked at Barber and groom's—that was a month before I gave information—he did Not continue supplying goods after that—I never saw him bring any after that—I advised him to desist—I told him he might get himself into trouble.

COURT to JOHN RICHARDS. Q. You have heard what this witness says is there any truth about that disagreement with the other prisoner about 5s? A No, it is false—he did not threaten me with the police at any time that I remember—it is not true—it is true that I opened my mind to Blyth, and he advised me to give up bringing goods—I did that because Locke would not pay me a little sum that he owed me, but it was not so much as 5s.—I had some disagreement with him about payment—I could not swear whether the police was ever mentioned to me by Locke—I do not remember it.

WILLIAM SMITH (City-policeman). On 15th July last, I made a communication to Messrs. Barber and Groom in consequence of information I had received—I apprehended Riohards on the 19th—I subsequently went to 113, Goswell-street, the house of Mr. Bates, a general dealer—I received this property (produced) from him; two sets of vegetable cutters, 57 patty-pans, and 1 sandwich box—after that I went to the house of the prisoner Locke, 8, Duke-street, Smithfield—I walked up into the front-room, first—floor, and there I saw him—I told him I was an officer—presently afterwards Richards came in with Mr. Barber and a brother constable—I asked Richards, in Locke's presence, whether this was Locke—he said, "Yes"—I said, "Is this the man who has been receiving the things from you, that you have stolen from your employers?"—he said, "Yes—I then said to Locke, "Be careful what you say, for whatever you do say, I shall give in evidence against you"—I cautioned him two or three times—I produced the things I had received from Bates—I asked him whether he knew Mr. Bates of Goswell-street—he said, "Yes"—I said, "Did you sell him these things?"—I asked him whether he knew where Richards worked—he hesitated, and seemed very much confused—I said, "Do you know that he works at Barber and Groom's?"—he said, "Yes; but I do not know that he works there now"—he said he had told Richards that if he came there again, he should send for the police—I then searched the room, and in a tin box I found this sandwich box (produced)—this is the second of the two—I asked him where he got that from—he said, "From Riohards"—I then took him in custody—on the way to the station, I told him that Richards stated that he had bought solder from him—he said, "Yes, I have bought some from him"—I said, "What did you give him a pound for it?"—he said five pence or sixpence; I do not remember which—I told him it was worth more than that; and at the station he voluntarily stated that he gave Richards three-pence each for the sandwich boxes.

Cross-examined. Q. Was anything said about the price for the patty-pans? A. Not at all—he admitted buying the patty-pans from Richards—he did not say how many—I believe he was asked, and he could not remember,

for he said he thought the patty-pans and all the things he purchased from Richards were his own property—I showed him 57 of these patty-pans that had been brought from Bates—some of the things are here now—the vegetable cutters, patty-pans, and the fluted ones, and the two sandwich boxes.

THOMAS MORRIS . I was formerly in the employ of the prisoner Locke as porter—I left his employment the day of his apprehension—I have been Richards there at various times—I have not seen him deliver any patty-pans there—I have seen some there after he has gone which were not there before—I have not seen that more than twice—I know Mr. Mucklestone—I have gone there from Locke to take some patty-pans; only on one occasion, about three months ago.

Cross-examined. Q. Do you know that Locke goes to Sadler's Wells Theatre in the morning to rehearse? A. Yes, he has been there about twice or three times only—I know that he has had a benefit there—when he went there I went with him first, and then I came to look after Blyth—I was a potboy at a public-house only once—I left there because the master turned jealous of me, for which I can give no reason whatever—that is the true reason—I have seen Richards at Locke's place several times, I cannot say how many—I do not know to whom he gave the patty pans when he brought them—I never saw him personally deliver anything to Locke—I do not know whether he has ever delivered anything to Blyth—I was not aware of any transaction between those two—the patty pans that I took to Mucklestone were various sizes and various numbers—I sold them to him for 10s.—I cannot say how many there were, nor how much apiece they were, I could not give you a notion; I am a perfect stranger to the trade—I took them in a square tin—they were all put together—they were not numbered, that I am aware of—I only know there was a large quantity—I got the money for them—that was about three months before Locke was apprehended—I had been in his employ for about a week or two—I used to call on him, for business was slack, and he could not afford to keep me on—he merely told me that he could not afford to keep me—I then left him—I still resided with him, but received no money for what I did—I was not dismissed.

FREDERICK MUCKLESTONE . I reside at 14, Great Charles-street, Blackfriars, and am a dealer in bakers' fixtures—I went to Locke's shop and purchased some patty pans and half-quartern tins—first of all, the last witness brought me over some; about two gross, or two gross and a half—they were odds and ends, and I gave 10s. for them—there were all manner of things—I bought things on two occasions, once at his place and once at mine—Locke told me he was selling off and was going to take a large shop in the Caledonian-road—these tins are worth about 4s. 6d. a gross—they are all made at one factory at Birmingham—I deal at Groom and Barber's, and at Birmingham—I cannot say whether these came from Groom and Barber's—I have not returned those that I bought from Locke—I did not buy any sandwich boxes; nothing but those round patty pans—there were two gross and a half—I paid 10s. for them; that is 4s. a gross—they were dirty and tarnished; they had been in the window for some time—they were not any of them in a new condition when I bought them—if they had been new I should have paid no more for them—it was about 4d. a dozen that I gave—they are hawked about the streets—4d. a dozen is their value to me—I do not consider that I bought them at unreasonably low prices at all—3d. a dozen, I should say would be an unreasonably low price—I considered that I was giving a fair price for them.

MR. LLOYD. Q. You say they were new, but a little tarnished; I suppose they are always like that if kept a little time? A. They are sometimes.

EDMUND BROOK BATES . I carry on business at 113, Goswell-street, as general dealer—I know Locke—I have been to his shop and made a purchase; and also frequently before he opened a shop; before he left his mother—this sandwich box and these patty-pans I purchased of him—these others I cannot swear to; I might have purchased them of him—I gave these things to the officer Smith—there are other things that I bought from Locke which I have sold.

Cross-examined. Q. Can you say the price you gave for the sandwich box? A. No, I bought it with other things—I bought an odd lot—I sometimes buy twenty or thirty saucepans, and bread tins, and other things—I really cannot give you any notion as to the price which I got that box or the patty pans for—sometimes there would be as many as 200 or 300 different articles—I have heard what Mr. Mucklestone has said about those patty pans—I think 4d. a dozen is the regular price in the way he bought them.

COURT. Q. Did Locke live with his mother? A. Yes; at least, in the same house—I bought saucepans and coffee-pots from him there, and I have often had patty pans, kettles, and bread-tins—I think I have been at his house as many as three or four times before he left his mother—that would be between eighteen months and two years ago—he had working materials and tin in his room, and seemed to work there—it was in the day-time that I went for the goods—I cannot say now at what hour.

JOHN GROOM . I am a tin-plate worker, at 1, and 2, John's-place, Clerkenwell—I know Locke—I am no relation to Messrs. Barber and Groom—I have been at Locke's shop in Little Britain—I purchased there on one occasion about six or seven dozen patty pans—I think I gave about 6d. a dozen for them.

Cross-examined. Q. Were those a larger kind of patty pans than those before you? A. They were mixed—there were some of this sort, but much larger than these small round ones—his shop was full of that kind of ware—I paid a very good price—I found out afterwards that I could buy them at a good deal lower price from the Birmingham houses—I never purchased such things before.

WILLIAM HENRY GROOM . I am the partner of Mr. Barber, we carry on business as tin-plate workers at Union-court, Holborn-hill—we employ 100 men altogether—Richards was in our employ in August, 1859, and Locke also—I am not quite precise as to dates, but I am sure they were with us together—Locke left us about eighteen months ago—the wholesale price of these sandwich boxes is a guinea a dozen—they are our manufacture; we can swear particularly to them—we also make vegetable cutters—the patty pans are all stamped in Birmingham—it is a peculiar manufacture; that refers only to this plain shape—we get them from Birmingham—the fluted ones we make ourselves; they are made by hand; this is our pattern—I should not like to say that it is peculiar to us—in our printed list the price of the patty pans varies from 6s. to 12s. a gross, subject to discount of course; or 6d. and 1s. a dozen—these vegetable cutters are our pattern, I have no doubt at all—they are, I think, about 2s. 3d. or 2s. 6d. a box—the solder is an article that we use rather than sell, but I should think it is about a shilling a pound—it is stamped with the letter M.

Cross-examined. Q. Do not you know that solder is pretty generally sold at 7d. a pound; some sort? A. Yes; solder varies very much—it is a compound of tin and lead—the tin gives it the chief value—we never buy

any—I am not aware of the price—we get some of these things from Birmingham—I really do not recollect how much a gross we pay for them—our average profit is not thirty or forty per cent.; we are quite satisfied with less than that—we are wholesale dealers, not retail—these are made by machinery, and the price varies—I was not at all aware that Locke kept a shop in which he sold pans and coffee-pots—he left us to go into business for himself, but I did not know whether it was a shop or not.

LOCKE— GUILTY of receiving. — Four Years' Penal Servitude.

RICHARDS received a good character, and was recommended to mercy by the prosecutor.— Confined Nine Months.

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-701
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty; Guilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude; Imprisonment > penal servitude

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701. JOHN LEONARD (25), and ALFRED SIMPSON (33) , Burglariously breaking and entering the dwelling-house of Lady Caroline Georgiana Lascelles, and stealing therein 1 eye-glass, value 15s.; 1 ring, value 1l.; and other articles, the property of Mary Louisa Lascelles; to which


MR. COOPER conducted the Prosecution.

FRANK CAVENDISH LASCELLES . I live with my mother, Lady Caroline Georgiana Lascelles, at 62, Eaton-square, in the parish of St. George's, Hanover-square—I recollect Friday, 26th July—about 10 o'clock I was alarmed by my sister, and, in consequence, went up-stairs and found the prisoner Leonard in the bedroom—this property (produced) belongs to my sister—I did not examine the house afterwards.

JOHN WHITTINGHAM . I am butler to Lady Caroline Lascelles—the servants generally sup at 9 o'clock—the family are generally in the dining—room at that time—on the night of 26th July it was a quarter or twenty minutes past 9—I had been down the area—I closed that door at twenty minutes past 9—it locks on the inside—it has no external opening—the windows down stairs were open, but they were all barred—as soon as I gave Leonard in charge I went to the top of the house—I found that he could not have come in at the top of the house—I searched all round—the hall door was shut at this time—I had occasion to go out as soon as dinner was over, about a quarter past 9, and when I went out I shut the door too—I know it was then on the catch.

Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. Q. Then you were out when this occurred? A. No, I had come in before—it is a Bramah lock—I have not got a key of it here, nor has Mr. Lascelles—I know by looking at the key, that it is a seven cut Bramah—there are two cuts on one side and three on the other—there are seven marks, and that is what is called a seven cut Bramah—I never heard the term "seven cut Bramah" before the evidence in this case—I have been to a locksmith about it—he is not here.

COURT to FRANK CAVENDISH LASCELLES. Q. Do you know the key of the front door? A. There is a new lock put on since this—the other was called a Bramah lock—whether it was a particular kind I cannot tell.

WILLIAM GORDON (Policeman, A 336). I know both the prisoners well as companions—I first heard of this robbery on the morning of the 27th—on the evening of the 25th I saw the two prisoners in Cranbourn-street, Leicester-square—I followed them across the Dials—the next evening I saw them together again in St. Martin's Lane, between 8 o'clock and a quarter past, and followed them from there to close to the Horse Guards, where I lost sight of them—you can go across the park to Eaton-square.

Cross-examined. Q. You do not mean to say that that is the nearest way from Charing Cross to Eaton-square? A. I would not go that way.

EMILY FRANCES PETTINGELL . I live with my mother, at 15, Sherard-street, Golden-square—Simpson called there about half-past 4 the day before my brother was taken in custody—he asked if John was in—that is my brother, the prisoner Leonard—I said no, he was not—he asked if he was in trouble—I said not that I was aware of—he then asked me what was the last time he called on us, and I told him about half-past 10 or 11 in the morning—he said if I should see him in the evening, would I tell him to meet him at the tavern at 8 o'clock—I said I would, and he went away.

Cross-examined. Q. He asked you whether he was in trouble, did not he? A. Yes; I knew what that meant, it meant if he were in custody—my brother often comes to our house—he has been in trouble before this.

MR. COOPER. Q. Was Simpson often calling on you at your house? A. No; my brother was—I had seen Simpson before—I do not know how often he had been there before; only two or three times—I had seen him with my brother, only once.

HENRIETTA CAROLINE PETTINGELL . I live at 7, Albion-buildings, Aldgate—I have known Simpson seven years on and off—he has not often been at our house—he had not been for between three and four months before the day of the robbery—Leonard is my brother—I have often seen him and Simpson together, but not lately—I recollect hearing of my brother being taken in custody—on the morning before that, Simpson came to my house about half-past 10 or 11 o'clock—my brother was at home then—I was present when Simpson first came—he said to my brother, "How are you Jack? I heard you were in trouble, and felt anxious about you"—a minute or two afterwards he said, "I have a place to be done, 62, Eaton-square; I have the key of it, and it is a seven cut Bramah"—he said that the servants would go to supper at about 9 o'clock, and the place must be done shortly afterwards—he was saying that they were to meet again at another place, the name of which I could not catch, with another man named Johnson—instead of finishing the appointment, he asked Leonard to go with him as for as Holborn-hill—they both went out together—I understood him that he got the key from one of the servants, but I cannot say for certain—I asked Simpson not to take him far, and asked Leonard to be quick back, on account of his dinner—my brother came back to his dinner, and left about half-past 3 or 4 o'clock—he did not return home at all after that—Simpson returned about half-past 11 that night—I was in bed—he knocked several times, and I got up and let him in—he said, "They have got Jack, and you had better go down to Rochester-row at 10 o'clock next morning"—I asked him was it much, and he said they found him in the house—I did not ask what house—he said nothing else—next day I went down to Rochester-row station, and found Leonard there.

Cross-examined. Q. Did you first speak to Sergeant Huddy about this? A. No, I did not; Sergeant Huddy had information from another party—I said a few words to him—I said so very little to him, that it was not worth naming—I did not speak to him about this matter until after Simpson was taken into custody—I did not speak to anybody before he was taken in custody, to give information about him—I did not speak to anybody about the evidence I have given to-day—I never told anybody at all until after Simpson was taken in custody—I am aware that he was not taken in custody till 1st August—I did not tell anybody that they were going to do a job at Eaton-square—no one came to me after Simpson was in custody, but I was up there to see my brother, and I saw Simpson being walked along by the police—Simpson was put in the dock and discharged—the Magistrate had,

not then heard the case; then when my mother and myself stepped forward to speak, he was put in the dock again and detained—my mother stepped forward when she saw him discharged, and I accompanied her and said what I knew—I did not speak to any one after he was discharged—my mother spoke to the Magistrate, and Simpson was sent for to be brought back, and I at once got into the box—I did not speak to any constable—when he was brought back, I told Sergeant Huddy that we could speak about it—this all took place in the Court—when he went out of the dock discharged, my mother said to the Magistrate that we could give evidence against him—he was then put into the dock again, and my mother and I gave evidence—it was after he was brought back again that I spoke to Sergeant Huddy—he was not then in the dock, but in the yard waiting to go into the dock—neither Sergeant Huddy, nor my mother, nor any one, told me that if I would give evidence it would diminish the sentence against my brother—I do not know why I waited till Simpson was discharged, before I said a word about this, and then give my evidence; nor what made my mother go forward after he was discharged; that she could say best—I cannot tell any other conversation that my brother had with Simpson on the night of 26th July, when he mentioned Eaton-square, except that he spoke of a likeness over the mantel-shelf—there is another brother living with us, who has been convicted once.

MR. COOPER. Q. Had you been in the Court long when Simpson was discharged or left the dock for the first time? had you just come, or been waiting there? A. We bad not been waiting there long; we had only just come there—he was discharged, and my mother mentioned it to the Magistrate, and then when he was being fetched back, I said a few words to Serjeant Huddy—I told him that he came up to our place—my other brother is younger than this.

ALEXANDER HUDDY (Police-sergeant, B 2). I was present before the Magistrate on the day when the two prisoners were brought there—Simpson was discharged, and immediately after that a communication was made by the mother of Leonard; in consequence of which I went and fetched Simpson back again—she did not make a communication to me—I could not say whether it was made to the Magistrate—Simpson was just outside the station-house, in the street—he was brought into the station, and I saw the last witness in the yard—she said something to me—I never told her that if she said anything or gave any evidence, it would be better for her brother, or that he would get less punishment; or hold out the slightest inducement for her to state what she was going to—she came forward of her, own accord readily, and gave her evidence.

WILLIAM ACKRELL (Policeman, F 48). I know both the prisoners—I saw them in St. Martin's-lane, about 7 o'clock on 26th July—I had seen them together for a fortnight before, in St. Martin's-lane, five or six times during the fortnight—I took Simpson in custody on 1st August, in Oxford-street.

Cross-examined. Q. On telling him the charge, did he say that he knew nothing about it? A. He did.


The prisoners were both further charged with having been before convicted; to which

LEONARD—PLEADED GUILTY.**— Fifteen Years' Penal Servitude

JAMES DEEMAN (Policeman, D 100). I produce a certificate (Read: "Westminster Sessions, February, 1857, Alfred Simpson, convicted on his own confession of stealing a coat and other articles, having been previously convicted.

—Sentenced to Four Years' Penal Servitude")—Simpson is the man—Leonard was convicted at the same time.

SIMPSON—GUILTY.**— Fifteen Years' Penal Servitude.

OLD COURT.—Saturday, August 24th, 1861.


Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-702
VerdictNot Guilty > no prosecutor

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702. ELIZABETH ANDERSON (23), JOHN MASON (40), and JOHN WILLIAMS (28) , Robbery upon Dennis Mc Sweeney Smith, and stealing 1 purse, 15s., and 2 postage-stamps, his property.

MR. PLATT, for the prosecution, stated that the prosecutor had left the country, and in his absence, he could offer no evidence.


19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-703
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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703. EDWARD KAY (40) , Embezzling the sums of 21l. 0s. 6d. and 13l. which he had received on account of Charles Edward Kolle and another, his, masters; to which he.


Recommended to mercy by the prosecutor

Confined Four Months.


Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-704
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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704. GEORGE PALFREY (29), was indicted for stealing 1 pump, of the value of 30s. the property of the Victoria Dock Company.

MR. ORRIDGE conducted the Prosecution.

HENRY CHRISTOPHER . I am a labourer in the Victoria Docks, at West Ham—on the evening of 13th August, about 7 o'clock I saw the prisoner on the jetty of the Victoria Dook—he was not employed, and had no business there; he had been denied being there—I saw him go in between some iron tanks and take out the remainder of a copper pump; he had nothing to do but to lift up a tarpaulin to get it—he took it on his shoulder and carried it to the end of the jetty, looked round, and seeing one of the Custom's officers he turned back and put it down again, and went to the top of the jetty and had some conversation with the police—I followed him to the top—he then turned back to the same spot again, took the pump again on his shoulder and carried it away to the top of the jetty, where he placed it down by the wall—I passed him and asked if he knew what it was o'clock—he said he did not—about ten minutes afterwards he took it up again and carried it about 300 yards, towards the bottom of the dock—I was watching him all the time—he then put it down in a shed, before a stack of guano; I suppose hearing me—I then told him he must go with me for having the pump in his possession—he said he was employed by some other man to carry it—the policeman came up and took him into custody—some man did come up and speak to him while he was at the bottom of the jetty; he then had the pump on his shoulder.

Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. It was very heavy, was it not? A. Yes; half a cwt. and twenty lbs.—I did not know him before—he did not ask me to go back with him and he would show me the man—the other man went away.

JOHN PORTER . I am one of the inspectors of police at the Victoria Docks—I know this pump, it was lying on the jetty at the dock; it is worth about 30s.—the prisoner was employed as a casual labourer at the docks.

Cross-examined. Q. He does job work, does he not? A. Yes, at times.


Before Robert Malcolm Kerr, Esq.

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-705
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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705. WILLIAM HORNER (29) , Stealing 4 bars, 1 lamp, and 2 union pipes, value 2l., the property of the Eastern Counties Railway Company, his masters.

MR. TINDAL ATKINSON conducted the Prosecution.

THOMAS DARBY . I am an apprentice in the workshops of the Eastern Counties Railway at Stratford—I know the prisoner from his coming into the shop—he works in a different shop to me; I know him to be a workman on the railway—on 9th August, about ten minutes past 9, I was on the railway works at Stratford going home, and saw the prisoner leaning on another man's arm as if to hide the weight of a bundle which he had, and pretending to be intoxicated—I followed them to the Black Bull, Stratford, they went in there and got a pint of beer, which they drank outside the house upon a form; he put the parcel under the form—the prisoner promised to meet the man at the quarter-past 12 trains from Barking station—he picked up the bundle, and after he had got a little way it fell, and I heard a jink, which made me more positive of what it was—I followed him to Stratford Bridge station—I went to see if I could find a policeman, but could not—I watched to see which carriage he got into and got into the same; he had the parcel with him—he went from Stratford Bridge to Barking Road—I got out and waited to see him come out, which he did, and directly he got on to the bridge I told inspector Mansel, who went after him—he dropped the parcel and tried to get away, but Mansel threw him on the ground—I ran for another man, and about ten or twelve yards from that place he dropped this brass (produced) out of his pocket—I picked it up and it was put with the others.

Prisoner. He is telling a falsehood. I found the parcel in a wateringplace.

CHARLES MANSEL (Police-inspector). On Friday night, 9th August, the prisoner was given into my charge by Darby; he had a bundle of brass fittings in a handkerchief—I said, "I think you have something which does not belong to you?"—he said, "No, I have not, and threw it down"—I had a severe tussle with him, held him, and sent for assistance—he begged and prayed of me to destroy part of the brass, as it would not go so hard with him—he said, "It is the first time, and I will never do it again"—I detained him till I got a constable and then took him in custoy.

Prisoner. I had had a drop to much that night, and I know I did make a little tustle. Witness. He did not appear to have been drinking.

THOMAS COLLINS (K 74). I was called by Mansel about half-past. 10—I told him the charge, stealing a quantity of brass from the Eastern Counties Railway—he said that he was sorry for it—I took him to the West Ham station, searched his house, and in a bureau in the front room I found these two pieces of brass (produced), some gunpowder, seven or eight fog signal cases, and in the back room this lamp—nobody can pick up fog signals on the railway, they always explode; these have not been exploded.

Prisoner. I asked the store-keeper to give them to me, and he did.

JOHN BALLOCK . I am foreman in the erecting shop at the Stratford I works of the Eastern Counties Railway—the prisoner was their servant—I the brass fittings are their property, and are perfectly new; they have I never been used—they are cast for the purpose—I ordered this fitter's lamp to be made; it has on it "E. C. R 40," which is partially scratched out and has been tinned over.

Prisoner's Defence. I picked up the things in a watering-place; I had I had five or six glasses of old ale and a couple of glasses of stout; they were in a basket with a skewer stuck through the top. I took them away with the intention of selling them, but afterwards something struck me, and I was going to take them to the police-station when Mr. Mansel took me.

JOHN BALLOCK (re-examined). Every casting has a number; I always order from the number which corresponds with the brasses—the prisoner was employed among these brasses—they have the same brand, and correspond with these wooden patterns (produced).


The witness Ballock stated that an immense quantity of property had been lost, and that men had been discharged on suspicion.

Confined Twelve Months.


Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-706
VerdictMiscellaneous > unfit to plead

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706. JAMES DAVIS (25) , indicted for unlawfully attempting to steal a watch of Anthony Armstrong, from his person.

Upon the evidence of Mr. John Rowland Gibson, surgeon of Newgate, the Jury found the prisoner of unsound mind, and not fit to plead to the indictment.

Before Mr. Justice Blackburn.

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-707
VerdictGuilty > lesser offence

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707. WILLIAM ROLFE (63) , Feloniously wounding John Morgan, with intent to do him grievous bodily harm.

MR. M. J. O'CONNELL conducted the Prosecution.

JOHN MORGAN . I am an umbrella maker and mender, and live in Mill-lane, Deptford—on Thursday, 30th May, about 6 o'clock in the afternoon, I was coming home from Lewisham where I had been doing some work, and as I was near the Ravensbourne river, going along a footpath leading to Deptford, I met the prisoner—the first words he accosted me with were, "You are the very fellow I want to see; you are a pretty fellow to go to a lady's house and do the work that I ought to do and have the money for it"—I asked him what house it was where the lady lived—he said "You d—d old b—you know well where she lives"—I said nothing to that—he then said that he would stab my—eyes out, and then I commenced to go on home, and he commenced stabbing me at the back of the head—I received the first stab there and the next at the side of the head—I held my hand up to defend myself—I turned to see what he had to stab me with, and it was the iron tube of an umbrella handle; and in turning my head he stabbed me right in the left eye with it—he then commenced stabbing me with it under the right eye and then under the ear, three or four times—I tried to extricate myself from him, I do not know how, and before I had gone many steps I fell to the ground senseless, and do not remember anything more until I found myself in the hospital some weeks afterwards—I was nearly ten weeks in the hospital—I have totally lost the sight of one eye and the other is very much damaged—unless I recover my

sight I am a ruined man, for I cannot follow my employment—I have known the prisoner by sight for many years in passing by, but never had any conversation with him, and was never in his company—he is an umbrella maker and mender—there had been nothing the matter with my eyes previous to this occurrence—I did not use any violence to the prisoner before he struck me, only in my own defence in pushing my hand out to defend myself; if I did touch him it was not intentionally.

Cross-examined by MR. ROSHER. Q. Were you sober? A. Yes, perfectly—I had been into one public-house, the Roebuck, at Lewisham, and had a pint of beer and some bread and butter; that was the only house I was in that day—I was there about a quarter or half an hour—I had no spirits—I never drink spirits—I did not address the prisoner before he spoke to me—I did not call him a b—y old b—, or ask what he was growling about—I did not call him an old sod, and ask what he wanted with me—I swear that; nor did he reply that all he wanted was civility—I swear that he struck me first—I did not strike him or attempt to do so, except I might have done it in extricating myself after I was stabbed—it was not after I struck him that he in self defence drew the umbrella handle from under his arm and struck me with it—I have been in prison for an assault on the police; that is two or three years ago—I had a month I think; it was not two months—that is the only time I have been in trouble; I swear that—I was never imprisoned for an indecent assault upon a girl—I was charged with it, but not found guilty—it is five or six years ago—the assault was that I smacked her—on account of her being so forward—it was before Mr. Trail!—I was never before a magistrate for any other assault or for being drunk—I have occasionally been before a magistrate for being drunk and been let go—I never kept an account of how many times it has been—I have never been imprisoned for being drunk—I was fined and then let off—I have not been charged with committing assaults when I have been drunk that 1 know of; I swear it—I say again that I was not drunk on this occasion.

MR. O'CONNELL. Q. Were you sent for trial for the indecent assault! A. No.

WILLIAM WARRINGTON (Policeman, R 279). On the afternoon of 30th May, I saw the prosecutor lying on the footpath leading from Lewisham to Deptford, near the Ravensbourne river—the witness Price and another man were with him, bathing his eyes with water from the river—his left eye was very much swollen, and he was bleeding from a stab in the right cheek—I got assistance and took him to the station, and then to Guy's Hospital—he was not able to speak—in consequence of information, I went to the prisoner's house at 9 o'clock next morning and saw him—he said, "I suppose you are come about that affair up by the water works yesterday?"—I said, "Yes, I am"—he said, "Well, I done it in self defence" and he delivered this stick up to me and said that was the stick he did it with.

Cross-examined. Q. You did not see anything of the assault? A. No; the prisoner produced the stick voluntarily and handed it to me—he expressed himself perfectly willing to go with me and meet the charge—I know nothing of the prosecutor.

WILLIAM PRICE . I am a seafaring man and live at Deptford—on the evening of 30th May, I was near the Ravensbourne river—I heard some persons talking rather angrily, and then saw the prisoner and prosecutor; I was thirty or forty yards from them looking at some men at work—I turued round and saw Morgan make a blow at the prisoner, whether it" was in self defence or not I cannot say, it partly knocked his hat off—the prisoner took

a stick from underneath his arm and made a blow at the prosecutor's face, and repeated it directly—it was a thrust—I made up to them directly, and Morgan was then lying on the ground bleeding from the—cheek and eye, and the prisoner was standing close to him—I took off his handkerchief and apron and bathed his eye, and remained with him till the policeman arrived—he was insensible when I went up to him—he vomited a great deal, and what he brought up smelt very strongly indeed of rum.

Cross-examined. Q. The first blow you saw struck was by the prosecutor? A. Yes; and then the prisoner had the stick under his arm.

GUILTY of unlawfully wounding. — Confined Nine Months.

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-708
VerdictGuilty > with recommendation

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708. PETER MASTERSON (22, a soldier), was indicted for the wilful murder of Martin Murphy; he was also charged on the Coroners Inquisition with the like offence.

MR. ORRIDGE conducted the Prosecution.

JOHN MCGRANARY . I am a gunner in the Royal Artillery—the prisoner was either a gunner or a driver—I knew Murphy, the deceased, by sight—he was a sergeant in the Royal Artillery stationed in Woolwich—on 8th July, I was on duty with the picket in the streets of Woolwich, and saw the prisoner in the streets about a quarter-past 10 at night—I asked him if he. was on leave; he said that he was—I asked him to show it to me—he said, "So I shall." and turned round and used very bad expressions, and ran away from me—I followed him about half a mile and caught him—he said, "I will rip your guts open if you come neat me'—I caught hold of him and saw that he had nothing in his hand—there was a gas light close to me—I took him, handed him over to the picket, and he was taken to the guard-room, where the deceased, Sergeant Murphy, was on duty—he was sitting here (pointing out the spot on a plan)—I told the prisoner to step forward and give his name to the sergeant of the picket—he said to the sergeant, "You well know my name, you got me three months at a Court Martial"—Sergeant Murphy asked him his name, and I told him to stand forward and give his name—Sergernt Ashton came in that time and asked the prisoner his name, but I did not pay particular attention to what he said because I was frightened—on that I left—I came back in about a quarter of an hour or more and asked Sergeant Murphy for the report of the men's names who were confined that night—Sergeant Murphy was still sitting at the table writing, and while he was in the act of writing the names, the prisoner came behind him and hit him with a bar of iron—I had not seen the prisoner come across, my attention was first attracted by the sound of the blow—my head was down on the table, lying on my arm—I turned round and assisted the sergeant of the guard and some of the picket to hold the man on the ground—I saw the sergeant of the guard take this bar of iron (produced) from the prisoner—while the prisoner was struggling, he said that he had had it long in for him—that is the way be pronounced the words—he was secured—I saw that the deceased was bleeding from the head at the back of his ear, and ran for a doctor—the prisoner was the worse for drink—he must have known what he was about, because he talked very sensibly to me when I took hold of him the last time—this iron bar was usually kept in the coal box for stirring the fire up—I cannot say whether it was there before he struck the blow—there are two platforms in the guard-room; the prisoner was sent to this one to the bed, I saw him walk over to it.

Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. Q. I suppose the bar is generally kept in that room? A. Yes; it is generally kept in the coal-box—in coming to that table he had to come a long way from where he was lying—I, was

leaning on the table looking over what the sergeant was writing—my back was towards the prisoner—to the best of my opinion the blow was struck on the further side of the sergeant from me—it was behind the ear, not quite on the top of the head, on the side—I think it was behind the right ear.

HENRY BARTHOLOMEW . I am a corporal in the Royal Marines at Woolwich—on this Monday I was on guard in the Arsenal in the guard-room—the prisoner was brought in about half—past 10 by the military police and the picket—the deceased was sitting at a table, and I was reading a newspaper by his side—he asked the prisoner his name—the prisoner said, "You know my name well enough, you gave me three months by Court Martial some time ago"—he asked him a second time, and the prisoner said, "Go to hell"—Sergeant Ashton came in, and the sergeant said, "He will not give his name;" but he gave it to Sergeant Ashton very quietly—Sergeant Ashton ordered him to the farther end of the guard-room—there was a small bed there and he sat down, and I heard no more of him for twenty minutes or half an hour—I was then sitting by the sergeant reading a newspaper, and he was writing, when I heard the sound of a blow—I turned my head round, and the deceased called out "Oh!" and staggered—I caught him in my arms—he was bleeding from the back of the right ear—the prisoner was standing behind, and the sergeant of the guard held him in his arms and took the bar away from him—I did not hear the prisoner say anything—I should think he was sensible enough to know what he was doing—he was taken away and secured.

Cross-examined. Q. Did you go out at all during the time? A. Not outside t he guard room—before the blow was struck I was reading the newspaper—to the right of the sergeant, at the same table, we were both sitting on one stool—I was sitting with my back to the prisoner; McGranary was on one side and I on the other—I did not Bee the blow; I only heard the sound, and heard the sergeant call out—I heard nothing said—the prisoner had been drinking a little, but was quite capable of performing his duties—he had had a little beer, and was rather riotous.

JOHN STARK . I am a sergeant of marines, stationed at Woolwich—on 8th July I was sergeant of the guard, and sat on the same stool with the late Sergeant Murphy—I remember the prisoner being brought in by the picket—as a soldier he was drunk; he must be either drunk or sober, and as a soldier he was drunk; but he knew perfectly well what he was doing—he was charged by McGranary with being drunk and absent—the deceased asked him what his name was—he said, "Oh, by Jesus, you know my name; you got me three months some time ago; I lay a month in the guard-room, and got two months by sentence of Court Martial"—the sergeant asked a second time what his name was, and he said, "Oh, go to hell!"—at that time Sergeant Ashton came in, and went up to him and asked him his name—he was quite civil to him—he said, "I will tell you my name, Sergeant Ashton"—he told him his name, and Sergeant Ashton ordered him to go over to the place where the prisoners are kept, and he did so—he was quiet for twenty or twenty—five minutes—I remained in the guard-room, still sitting on the same stool with the sergeant; and about that time I got up, turned to my right, and went towards the guard-bed of the guard, not the prisoner's guard-bed—I turned to my right again coming back, and saw the prisoner about two paces from the sergeant, in the act of walking up to him—his eye was fixed upon him—he had this crow—bar in his right hand, close to his right leg, as if he was hiding it—I instantly rushed to the place where the prisoner was, but before I got there he had struck the sergeant a blow with this crow.

bar at the back of the head, just behind the right ear—I caught bold of the prisoner and took the weapon from him, had him removed, and instantly sent for a doctor, who dressed his wound, and he was taken to the hospital—the prisoner was also taken away—this bar was usually kept in the coal-box, with the poker, shovel, and fire-irons—I am able to say that it was there that night—I saw it shortly before this took place; shortly before the prisoner was brought in by the military police.

Cross-examined. Q. Had you been in the guard-room long? A. I had not been out of it for an hour before they came in—I was not dressed as I am now—the side arms are kept on when persons come into the guard-room—there are side arms in the guard-room, and there were that night—they were hung on a peg, not in the part where the prisoner was to sleep, but at the other part—this (pointing to the plan) is the guards' bed, and the little one is a bed for the prisoners—the swords are hung overhead, not within reach of the prisoners; but any one passing along the platform might step up here and get one in a moment—they consist of swords and bayonets—there are no muskets, they are outside the guard-room altogether.

THOMAS ASHTON . I am in the Royal Artillery at Woolwich on the night of 8th July I went on duty in the guard-room about half-past 10 o'clock—I heard a noise, and saw the prisoner leaning over Sergeant Murphy and using threatening language—I cannot say exactly what he said, for I did not take particular notice—I asked Sergeant Murphy what was the matter—he said that the prisoner refused to give his name—I went to the prisoner and asked him what he meant by such conduct—he said he knew me perfectly well, and would do anything I ordered him to do; then turning rouud, facing Sergeant Murphy, he said, "I have had three months for throwing a quart pot at his head, and I will pay him off yet before I go to India"—he was under the influence of drink, but was steady, and quite aware of what he was doing—he was drunk in a military sense—I ordered him to lie down on the guard-bed and keep his proper place; he did so, and I left the guard-room—I returned in about half an hour and saw Sergeant Murphy carried out on a stretcher, apparently dead—the prisoner was brought out, handcuffed immediately after, and requested to see me—I saw him, and he said, "I wish to give myself up as a deserter from the 11th Foot—I told him he would have to answer the charge of assaulting Sergeant Murphy before that could be considered—he then said, "I wish I had killed him right out"—I ordered him to the guard-room.

THOMAS DUNVILLE SMYTH . I am assistant-surgeon of the Royal Artillery—on 8th July, between 11 and 12 o'clock in the evening, I saw the deceased in the hospital insensible—he bad a wound more than an inch long, behind his ear—I had it dressed, and had him put to bed—he remained insensible about two hours; after that he became sensible, and I saw him at 8 o'clock next morning—he went on pretty well till the afternoon of 10th July, when he became considerably worse—he continued to get worse, and died on 12th July—I made a post mortem examination, and found all the vessels of the brain very much gorged with blood—I found blood effused on the right side of the brain and also at the base, and a fracture of the right temple bone—the wound might have been caused by this bar—the cause of death was congegtion of the brain, proceeding from the blow.

Cross-examined. Q. Would that be from the concussion? A. Yes; the wound itself would not cause it, but the concussion would occasion effusion of the blood—concussion may arise from a blow with the fist—it might produce insensibility for some short time—the brain is more susceptible from a

blow at that part—the wound was about an inch long, and went downto the the bone—I attached no importance to the external wound—there must have been great violence to fracture the bone—the bone was fractured besides.

WILLIAM WILKINSON (Police-sergeant, R 12). On the morning of 12th July I took the prisoner at his cell at the Artillery barracks—I told him it was for violently assaulting Sergeant Murphy on the 8th—he said, "I am the man; it is done, and cannot be helped"—on the way to the station he asked me if Sergeant Murphy was likely to die—I told him I thought he was—he said, "I did not mean to kill him"—I produce this bar, which I found in the guard-room on the same day.

GUILTY.—Recommended to mercy by the jury, considering that the blow was struck when he was under the exciting influence of strong drink. — DEATH .

Before Robert Malcolm Kerr, Esq.

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-709
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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709. WILLIAM JANES (23) , Breaking and entering the dwelling-house of Mill Pellatt, and stealing 1 teapot, value 16l. and other goods, value together 44l., his property, having been previously convicted; to which he.

PLEADED GUILTY .**— Eight Years' Penal Servitude.

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-710
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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710. THOMAS LANCASTER (21) , Embezzling the sums of 10s. 8d., 2s. 4 1/2 d., and 2s. 9d., the property of William Robert Gattey; to which he

PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Six Months.

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-711
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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711. MARIA ROSE (19) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.

MR. HODGSON conducated the prosecution.

JAMES COOPER . I Am a licensed victualler of the Globe public-house, Woolwich—on Saturday evening. 27th July, about half-past 10 o'clock, the prisoner came there, asked for 2d. worth of peppermint, and paid with a I half-crown, which I tried in the tryer and found to be bad—I asked her where she got it—she said that a young sailor gave it to her—I did not say anything else to her, but sent for the policeman, John Page—I marked the money I had received from the prisoner, and gave it to the policeman—I never gave it out of my baud from the time I received it till I gave it to the constable.

WILLIAM BELL . I am employed in the Arsenal as store-keeper, and live at Union-street, Woolwich—I was at the Gun public-house on 27th July, and saw the prisoner there between 7 and 8 o'clock, I think; I cannot say exactly—she was served with a glass of peppermint by James, the barman he is not here—she paid with a half-crown—the barman took it up, looked, at it, and told her immediately that it was bad—she said that she did not know it and would go and get change, and she went out of the house—I saw her about ten minutes or a quarter of an hour after she went out, a little way from the house, standing in the road talking to an elderly female—I saw her pass something to the female, and the, female took something from a bag she was carrying and passed it to her—I do not know what it was—in consequence of what I saw I went to the Oak public-house and saw the elder woman there—she called for half-a-quartern of port wine and paid with a; half-crown, which the barmaid put in the till—I do not know whether it was good or bad—I asked the landlady afterwards to look at it, as I thought it was bad—I saw the landlady give it to the policeman, Wilkinson—I do not know whether it was the same half-crown; I could not swear that it was.

JOHN PAGE (Policeman, Woolwich Dockyard 60). On Saturday night, 27th

July last, I was sent for to Mr. Cooper's house, and there received the prisoner in custody for having passed a bad half-crown—I asked her where she got it, and she said that a young sailor gave it to her.

WIILLIAM WILKINSON (Police-sergeant, R 12.) On Saturday evening, 27th July, I was at the Oak public-house, Woolwich, and received from the landlady this half-crown (produced).

WILLIAM WEBSTER . These coins are both bad, and from the same mould.


19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-712
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

Related Material

712. CHARLES FRENCH (25) , Unlawfully assaulting Charles Overy, a police-constable, in the execution of his duty; to which he.

PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Nine Months

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-713
VerdictGuilty > unknown

Related Material

713. WILLIAM BUDDLE (23) , Stealing 1 gelding, 1 cart, a set of harness, 1 whip, and 1 nose-bag, the property of William Lee and another.

MR. UNDERWOOD conducted the Prosecution

ALFRED HARRIS . I am the son of John Harris, a coachman, living at 1, Pope's-buildiugs, Deptford—I had to look after Messrs. Lee and Bowie's horses at Walpole-street—on 3d July, the prisoner came to me and told me that Mr. Rutledge had sent him after his horse and trap, and wanted it at 6 o'clock—I helped him harness it and he took it away—I knew him before—he had been Mr. Rutledge's servant.

Prisoner. Q. Was there not another man went down with me? A. No.

EDWARD RUTLEDGE . I am in the employment of Messrs. Lee and Bowle's—they have stables in Walpole-street—the prisoner was in their employ, and in the habit of driving me round the works in a horse and trap, and looking after it—he was discharged on 29th June—since his discharge I have not given him or any other person directions to fetch the horse and cart—I have not required it.

CHARLES WENDON . I am an omnibus proprietor at Romford—on Wednesday, 3d July, a little before 9 o'clock in the morning, I saw this horse and cart going down the road towards Romford—after my return from London I went to Romford market, and saw the prisoner and two or three others with him, with the horse and cart—the cart was chalked on each side of the panels, "For sale"—it was standing directly opposite my house—I went and looked round it, saw it have a run up and down, and agreed to purchase it—I think it was 16l. they asked me for it—I bought it at 12l. and got a piece of paper at the time.

Prisoner. Q. Are you sure that I was one with the horse and cart? A. Yes; I put the money on the table—I will not swear whether you took it up or not—I am sure you were there.

BENJAMIN GEORGE . I am clerk to Messrs. Lee and Bowie's—I have seen he horse and cart—it is their property—the value of the two is about 45l.—the prisoner had no authority from me to take it, or from anybody else in the establishment.

THOMAS WASTON (Policeman, R 24). In consequence of information I received, I went to Romford on Friday, 5th July, and found the horse and cart in the possession of Mr. Wendon—I took possession of it and put it in another yard till the following Tuesday, when I went down with some one from Messrs. Lee and Bowle's, who identified it, and I gave it up to them.

JOHN LEECH (City-policeman, 508). The prisoner was given into my custody in Gracechurch-street, by Mr. Bennett, of the firm of Lee and Bowie's—the prisoner ran away and I ran after him—I told him what he was charged

with, and he denied all knowledge of it—I took him to the station—he was sent to New-cross that evening, and identified there as being the man.

Prisoner's Defence. I was discharged on the 29th June—on 2d. July, I went there, and a young man came and asked me if they were Messrs. Lee and Bowie's stables—I said, "Yes"—and he said he had been sent for the horse and trap—I helped him harness the horse and he drove away—I have never seen him since—I went down to the stables, but I deny being the person who took it.

GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-714
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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714. DANIEL CONNEL (18) , Embezzling and stealing the several sums of 17s. 6d., 7s. 6d., and 17s. 6d., the moneys of Frederick Johnson; to which he.

PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Four Months

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-715
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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715. FREDERICK BOSTON (24, a soldier), stealing 1 watch, value 5l., the property of George Barrell, from his dwelling-house.

MR. BEST conducted the Prosecution

GEORGE BARRERICK . I am a watch-maker, of 23, Thomas-street. Woolwich—I remember the prisoner coming into my shop on 29th July, and inquiring for a ring he had left to be repaired—he said a person of the name of Mary Ann Peel was to call for it, and I was to give it to her—he asked me about a watch, as he wished to buy one and pay for it by instalments—I took one out of the window and that did not suit him—I then took another out of the drawer, and said, I would be ready for him as Boon as he was ready for me—he then said, "There is one in the window—I am expecting a remittance from my friends to-morrow"—I took the watch out of the window and was in the act of opening it when he gave a whistle, snatched the watch out of my hand, and rushed out of the shop—I am sure he was the man, because of leaving the ring to be repaired—I did not see the watch again—I next saw the prisoner on Wednesday, when he was in custody—I mentioned this to the police, and described the person.

JOHN SERGEMENT . I am a police-constable of the R division, stationed at Woolwich—from information I received, I took the prisoner, he was then in military custody for absence without leave, for nine days—that was two days after the robbery—I asked him if his name was Boston—he said, "That is my name here"—I then told him he most consider himself in my custody for having stolen a watch from the shop of Mr. Barrell on the 29th—he said, "It is all right, you will find more to-morrow"—he stated that the detective was after him, and he thought he might as well give himself up as he was put back for court martial.

Prisoner's Defence. I was never in that shop after the 22d.

The sergeant stated that he had been four years in the service, and his character was bad

GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months


Before Mr. Common Serjeant

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-716
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceMiscellaneous > sureties

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716. GEORGE WHITWORTH (45), was indicted for a nuisance; to which he


To enter into his own recognizances to appear and receive judgment if called upon.

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-717
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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717. JOHN SUNTER (49), and ROBERT OUTMORE (23) , were indicted for stealing 2s., the property of William Edwards, the master of Cutmore.

MESSRS. SLEIGH and POLAND conducted the Prosecution

GEORGE TARRANT (Policeman, P 126). I have been nearly six years in the force—some time in June last, I received some information with refer-ence to Sunter, in consequence of which I watched him—I was in plain clothes—on Wednesday, 19th June, I saw him go into the Bridge-house public-house, in the Borough-road, about twenty-seven minutes past 4—Cutmore was barman there—he was behind the bar when Suuter went in—I had gone in previously, and was talking to Cutmore as a customer—I was drinking half a pint of beer—while I was drinking it Sunter came in—he called for a half a pint of beer—Cutmore served him; he put down a six-pence on the counter—Cutmore took up the sixpence, took some coppers out of one till, went to another till and took out two shillings; he came direct to where Sunter stood, and put down the two shillings and some coppers on the counter in front of him—it was put behind the beer engine, nearly out my sight—upon seeing the money put down there, I directly moved up closer to Sunter, and I saw the two shillings and some coppers—Sunter took them up and left the house—no conversation took place between the prisoners—no more than asking for the half-pint of beer—Cutmore pot the sixpence in the till—when Sunter took up the money, I was so close to him that my sleeve touched his arm—I am quite certain there were two shillings, and that only sixpence was given—I followed Sunter to a public-house in Newport-market, and to several other public-houses—on that occasion Sunter was walking in his waistcoat, and with his shirt sleeves tucked up, and I was the same myself; he had no coat—after going to several public-houses he came back to the Bridge house—I did not take him into custody that day—on the following Saturday, about 4 o'clock, I went again into the Bridgehouse-tavern—he went to another public-house that same evening, and shortly afterwards, about 9 o'clock, he was taken into custody—I was not present when he was taken; I beard of his being taken—on Saturday evening I went to No. 1, Duke-street, Westminster-road; that is a shop which Sunter holds; he could not live there, it consists of only two very small rooms, full of all sorts of locks, and keys, and other things—his name was up over the door—Sunter was in custody at the time I went there—I searched the premises—I found five or six packets of copper money, consisting of 5s. each, and some silver money also, amounting altogether to 6l. 8s. 0 1/2 d.—I found the copper money in all parts of the shop, some in an old pint-pot, some in an old boot, and some in an old watering-pot; I also found some other articles there—I took Cutmore into custody on the Saturday night (that was before I had searched at Sunter's)—I told him I was a police-constable, and I should take him into custody for robbing his employer, on Wednesday the 19th, of 2s—he said he knew nothing about it.

Cross-examined by MR. ORRIDGE (for Cutmore). Q. Was Wednesday afternoon the first time you. saw Sunter go to the Bridgehouse? A. No; I saw him go in several times during the day—I was not in the house all the time; I went in before him on this occasion, and was waiting for him—I saw Cutmore many times after that before taking him into custody, it might tea dozen times—I know Ridley, the other barman at the Bridgehouse, by being there; I did not know his name then—I saw him there several times during the day—I did not see him there at the time the money was passed—I am sure he was not there—I know that he has stated that he was there—I do not know whether Mr. Edwards, the proprietor, states that he was

there; I saw Mr. Edwards there several times during the time I was watching Sunter—there were all three in the place together at time—I searched Cutmore, and found on him two pins and a key—I searched his box, and found there two sixpences, a watch, and two duplicates—Sunter was taken into custody before Cutmore.

Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE (for Sunter). Q. I understand you were standing in the public-house, and distinctly saw the sixpence put down) A. I did; and distinctly saw the two shillings taken up—there was nobody with me—I did not see the landlord at that time, and I believe, from what he has told me since, that he was not at home at the time—I did not inquire—I followed Sunter out, and followed him about for two or three days to different places; I had him constantly under my eye—I did not take him into custody at once, because I had received information that he was in the habit of going about to different public-houses receiving money from barmen, and I wanted to get the case clear against him—I call this a clear case certainly, but I wanted a clearer case, because he was going to other houses and I wanted to see; I admit there could not be a clean case—I did not tell the landlord until the Saturday night—I told somebody—I have not got my memorandum-book with me—I have got my pocket-book, but. it contains nothing about this—I made no entry in that, I made it on foolscap and gave in my report—it is my duty to report everything at the station—I did make an entry at the time it occurred; it is not in my pocket-book, but on a sheet of foolscap that I carried with me for the purpose—it is at home in my box; I did not think it necessary to bring it—this is not a book given me for the purpose of making entries. I bonght it—I reported this matter the same night to my superintendent, Mr. Payne, of the P division—I believe he is not here—I did not enter this in my book, because I always enter such things as this on a sheet of foolscap that I carry purposely—I merely enter rubbish in this book, all sorts of things (handing it in); some of them are private entries and some on business—I enter anything that occurs on my beat, such as goods removed, or the numbers of cabs, and such things; those I enter in the book when I have got no foolscap with me—you may find this matter entered there, and now I come to recollect I believe you will—I made it on foolscap—I buy the foolscap; I do that out of my pound a week and less than that—no books or papers are provided for us; I have always found them for myself ever since I have been a police-constable—I see there is no entry here—there was nobody but Sunter and I in the compartment I was in at the time this occurred—no one but Cutmore was behind the bar—I did not call the attention of any, one in the house to this until the Saturday night.

MR. POLAND. Q. Is the book you have for the purpose of making memorandums, numbers of cabs, and so on? A. Yes—this was a special matter that I was engaged in—I made a report to my superior on the following day; that was on foolscap—it is usual to make reports in that way—when I have seen Suuter go into the house on other occasions, I have sometimes gone in first and sometimes after him—I did not see Mr. Edwards, the landlord, on this occasion, nor Ridley the other barman—I am sure he was not there at the time—Ridley was called as a witness on behalf of Cutmore at the police-court—Sunter's house is about 300 yards from Mr. Edwards's.

ARTHUR ELLIOTT (Policeman, G 13). I took Sunter into custody on Saturday, 22d June at the King's Head public-house, near Newport market—he had been in there and come out, and I followed him a short

distance and then took him into custody—I had seen him previously during the week at other public houses—I had seen him a number of times at the Bridgehouse—when I took him I called him by name, "Sunter"—he said, "Yes"—I said, "I shall charge you with inciting barmen to rob their masters, and receiving money from them well knowing the same to be stolen"—he said, "I have not incited any barmen to rob their masters, and I have only received my right change"—I said, "I hall-charge you with receiving 2s. from the barman of the King's Head public-house, in Newportmarket, knowing the same to be stolen"—I then asked him what money he had got on his person—he said about four shillings in copper and silver—on searching him at the station I found seven or eight shillings in copper and silver all intermixed.

WILLIAM EDWARDS . I am landlord of the Bridgehouse public-house, in the Borough-road—Cutmore was in my employment as barman for about eight months—on Wednesday, 19th June, I was from home in the afternoon—I left Cutmore in the house—I know Sunter as a customer—I have frequently seen him at my house.

Cross-examined by MR. ORRIDGE. Q. Have you been in the habit of serving Sunter yourself repeatedly? A. I have—Cutmore has frequently been in the bar at the time—I have served him, and also Ridley the other barman.

Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. Q. Is Ridley still in your service? A. Yes—Sunter was there too frequently for me—I do not know that he is a gas fitter, he has told me so, and asked me to give him a job—I believe this prosecution is instituted by the Licensed Victuallers' Society—Mr. Child is the attorney.

GEORGE TARRANT (re-examined). When Sunter put down the sixpence, I was about a foot from him—it is a very small bar—we were close together—I was talking to the barman at the time.

Sunter received a good character


19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-718
VerdictGuilty > unknown; Guilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment; Imprisonment

Related Material

718. JOHN SUNTER (49), was again indicted, together with JAMES DYER (25) , for stealing 2s. the property of John Rolt, the master of Dyer.

MESSRS. SLEIGH and POLAND conducted the Prosecution

ARTHUR ELLIOTT (Policeman, G 13). Previous to Saturday, 22d June, I had been watching Sunter—I was in plain clothes—I had seen him go into the King's Head, in Newport-market—on Saturday evening the 22d, I went into the King's Head about a quarter or twenty minutes past 5—I was then in plain clothes—Dyer was behind the bar acting as barman—Sunter was there when I went in—my wife was with me—I remained there about ten minutes or a quarter of an hour—during that time Sunter was sitting on a seat facing the bar—there were several persons in front of the bar when I 'entered, and they remained there for some considerable time—im-mediately the other parties had left the house Sunter rose from his seat, and went to the bar, and said to Dyer, "James, give me a screw of tobacco"—the screw of tobacco was given by Dyer, and a penny put down by Sunter which was taken up by Dyer—it was a sixpence that Sunter put down—Dyer took it up and put down five pennyworth of halfpence, and two shillings, which was taken up by Sunter—I could not see the till, but the money was taken from the direction where the till generally is—it was a high bar, and I could not see the till—I am quite sure it was a sixpence that put down, and not a penny—I said a penny at first, because I have him put down a penny many a time at other places—on this occasion I

am certain it was a sixpence that he put down, and he took up the 2s. 5d.—he then filled his pipe with the screw of tobatco, lighted it, and left the house—I followed him—he went about 100 or 150 yards away from the house when I called him by name, "Sunter," and said, "I shall charge you with inciting barmen to rob their masters, and receiving money from them well knowing the same to be stolen"—he said, "I have not incited any barmen to rob their masters, and I have only received my right change"—I had not said anything about change—I said, "I shall charge you with receiving 2s. from the barman at the King's Head"—he said, "You makes a mistake"—I then said, "What money have you got upon your person?"—he said, "About 4s."—(I am looking at a memorandum which I made at the time)—I took him to the station, searched him, and found on him 5s. 9d. in silver—there was a threepenny piece among it, and la. 7 1/2 d. in copper—it was in his pockets—silver and copper all intermixed—I went with Tarrart to Sunter's house, and there found this book under the shop counter.

Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE (for Sunter). Q. Did you make any memorandum as to the amount of money you found? A. Yes—I did not make a minute of what I saw in the public-house, because it was entered on the charge-sheet at the time—I went there for the purpose of watching—I took my wife for the purpose of taking off suspicion, as I had been into many other public-houses with Sunter, so that he should not know me—I wanted to disguise myself as well as I possibly could—my wife is not accustomed to that sort of thing—that was the first time she had ever gone out with me in that way—my superior officers knew that I took her with me for this purpose—Mr. Payne, the superintendent of the P division, knew it—I told him I was going to take her—I am not aware that she was paid as a police-officer—if she has received anything it is not known to me—it is not likely—I am willing to swear that she has not received a farthing—I cannot say what she is to receive—I have not inquired—I did not mention it to the superintendent in order that my wife should get paid—I said I would take some person with me to take suspicion off—he did not say whether he would sanction it or not—I commenced watching Sunter on 13th June—this occurred on the 22d—I had been into a good many public-hours with him during that time, and a great many times to the same houses—I have seen him put down a penny at other houses when the landlord has been at the bar—that was the reason I made the mistake in saying a penny instead of sixpence—I have not made any entry in my book of what coin it was put down—I made no report of it—I had no reason to do so as I took him into custody there and then—Tarrant and I were together every day on this business—we may sometimes have gone into public-houses together, and sometimes we went separately—I had been in the King's Head about thirteen minutes before the sixpence was put down—there was a clock in front of the bar—there were about three other persons in the house—no fresh customers came in after me—I was not sitting—I stood close to the bar—I had a glass of mild ale,—I pay for that out of my own pocket with out requiring to be paid again—I also pay for my books or papers—a pennyworth of paper would last me for a month—I cannot say whether I shall be repaid or not by the Licensed Victuallers' Society for what 1 expend in beer—if I was to expect to be paid, I might be deceived—I have not received one farthing—I have been on two occasions to Mr. Child's office on this subject—I believe the last time was on Friday or Saturday, and the other time was previous to the last Sessions—I went to Mr. Child because I received a note to attend there—it had no reference to payment—I have

very seldom talked this matter over with Tarrant—I cannot say that I have said anything to him as to what he has done, or what I have done—I have not talked it over this morning, or last Sessions, or at all.

Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON (for Dyer). Q. How many public-houses had you been in on this day? A. Only one previous to the King's Head—I bad not been into the Bridgehouse that day—I believe there were three persons besides Sunter in the King's Head—there was only Dyer behind the the counter—he served me with the ale—I paid him with a sixpence, and he gave me 2d. change—my wife had half a quartern of gin, and a drop of cold water—I had none of that—this was about a quarter past 5—I was thirteen minutes in the house altogether—I asked for the ale and gin directly I went in—I can't say whether the other persons called for anything—they were sitting at the bar, and there were several pint pots on the table—I cannot say whether they paid any money or received any change—I was not looking at them—I was looking more particularly at Sunter—there are three or four doors to the house—it is a corner house—I was standing close to the bar, and my wife was standing on my right—there are three compartments to the bar—Dyer was going from one to the other—he put the money I gave him, in the direction of the till: I could not see the till, the bar being so high; but he dropped his hands inside the bar—that was about a foot, or a foot and a half, from where I was standing—I found several books at Sunter's after he was in custody—I found this one in the shop—there was no person there—there are only two rooms, one up and one down—they are used as ware-rooms, both full of lumber and iron things—Sunter's name was up over the shop—he told me he lived there.

MR. POLAND. Q. Among the silver found on Sunter were there two shillings? A. There were three shillings, a sixpence, a fourpenny and a threepenny piece.

CATHERINE ELLIOTT . I am the wife of the last witness—at his request I went with him to the King's Head, Newport Market, on this Saturday—I saw Dyer there behind the bar serving—Sunter was sitting down behind me as I was standing in front of the bar—I had a glass of cold gin and water—after I had been there about five or ten minutes, Sunter got up and called for a screw of tobacco and put down sixpence—Dyer put it into the till, and gave him two shillings in silver and five penny-pieces, in copper—I saw that distinctly—I am quite sure it was a sixpence that I saw Sunter put down—I was not half a yard from him—I was told strictly to watch to see what money he did put down—he took up the two shillings and five pence, put it in his pocket, lit his pipe, and went out—I followed him out, and saw my husband take him into custody.

Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. Q. Did not you take him into custody? A. No; I am not kept for that purpose—I went there for the purpose of detecting this man—I had not been anywhere before that—I came straight from home with my husband—I had not followed Sunter about—this is the only time I have been engaged in a matter of this sort with my husband—he told me to watch the prisoner—he told me what he wanted to prove—I stood close to Sunter when he put down the money, and my husband was next to me—there had been other persons there, but they had gone out—there were none there then—my husband had a glass of ale, and I had half a quartern of gin, and water—he paid for both—I have not seen Mr. Child since then, or been to bis office—I saw him at Lambeth police-court—I was not examined anywhere but there—I believe my husband took my evidence—he did not ask me what I had seen, nor did I tell him—he saw it

as Well as I did—I examined it at the station—we have not talked about it since.

Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. Did you say you were in the house four or five minutes before you called for the drink? A. No; we called for it directly we went in—he told me to watch before we went in—I saw my husband pay for what we had—I can't tell what he paid, or what change he received—I had my eyes fixed on the prisoner, watching him—there was no one serving but Dyer.

JOHN ROLT . I keep the King's Head in Newport Market—Dyer was my barman, and had been in my employment for about six weeks—I do not know Sunter, except from seeing him come to my house three or four times.

Cross-examined by METCALFE. Q. I suppose the beer at your establishment is very good? A. I believe it is.

WILLIAM HAYHOE (Policeman, C 56). I was present when Sunter was taken into custody—Elliott told him he was charged with inciting the barmen to rob their employers, and likewise receiving money, well knowing it to be stolen—Sunter said, "I have incited no barmen, neither have I received anything but my right change"—before that nothing had been said about change being received.

SUNTER.— GUILTY .— Confined Two Years

DYER.— GUILTY .— Confined Eighteen Months

MR. SLEIGH stated that at Sunter's premises a savings' bank-book was found belonging to a man named Hazel, convicted last Session of a similar offence, and that Dyer had obtained his situation at Mr. Rolt's by a false character.

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-719
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

Related Material

719. THOMAS STANFORD (43) , Embezzling and stealing the sums of 72l. 9s., 16l. 1s. 4d., and 26l. 8s. 4d., which he had received as clerk and servant to the London and South Western Railway Company, his masters. MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE, with MR. LILLEY and WOLLETT, conducted the Prosecution

CHARLES HARVEY . I am a clerk in the treasurer's department of the London and South Western Railway Company—I know the prisoner's handwriting—the answers to the questions in this paper (produced) are in his writing—(This was a return made in October, 1860, by which it appeared that the prisoner entered the service of the Company in 1852, as a clerk at 70l. per annum, and that, in 1856, he was appointed cashier in the delivery department at Nine Elms at 125l. per annum.).

Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. How long have you known the prisoner? A. From the first day he entered the service, about nine years ago.

CHARLES THOMAS BRANDNOCK . I am a partner in the firm of Wilton and Co.—I produce a cheque for 21l. 11s.—it was paid to William Harrison, a carman, on account of the London and South Western Railway Company—it is dated 27th March—it is receipted by Harrison—at the time I made that payment, Harrison delivered goods to our firm to that amount—I also produce a receipt for the sum of 16l. 1s. 4d. dated 8th March, 1861—that was for goods delivered to our firm—that sum was paid to Harrison—I also produce another receipt for 26l. 8s. 1d. of 14th March, 1861—that was paid to W. Webb, a carman of the Company—the 16l. 1s. 4d. and 26l. 8s. 1d. were paid in cash.

WILLIAM HARRISON . I am a carman in the service of the London and South Western Railway Company, at the Nine Elms Station—on 8th March I delivered some goods at Messrs. Willian's in Lant-street, and received 16l. 1s. 4d. for them—this receipt is my writing—when I received the money I kept it the rest of the day, and paid it when I got to Nine Elms at night—

in the course of business an invoice is given to me by the cashier at Nine Elms, together with a voucher-sheet—this (produced) is the voucher we have with the goods—on this occasion this invoice was given to me—it was receipted' and left with the customer, and this voucher-sheet was signed by Messrs. Willan. and returned by me to the office at Nine Elms—we return it to the party we settle with, who pays us our expenses and tolls for the day—I pat it in what we call a pigeon-hole in a little office that we pay our money into—a cashier site inside to receive the money—I returned it to the pigeon-hole on this occasion with the cash, 16l. 1s. 4d., and it was taken by the clerk in the office.

Cross-examined. Q. You put the voucher through the pigeon-hole, I under-stand? A. Yes; who was on the other side of the pigeon-hole I do not know—there are generally two or three sitting inside—there may be half-a-dozen—we do not see as many as that—who takes the money we cannot tell—we are sure that somebody takes it—as we pass the money in it is taken from us—we might, by looking into the pigeon-hole, see who it was—we lose sight of the money when we put it into the pigeon-hole, because the party takes it from us—on this particular occasion I did not see who took it, if I did it would be impossible for me to remember four months afterwards which of the cashiers it was—I will not swear that I saw anybody take it.

COURT. Q. Do you mean that you lay the money down there and never see it received at all? A. The clerk sits there, and when we pay the voucher in, he takes it and the money from us—I am sure that somebody took it on 8th March.

MR. RIBTON. Q. Why did you say just now that you were not sure? A. said I did not see who took the money—I can swear that somebody took it, because it was taken from me with the voucher—I do not merely pass it in and leave it there—I give it to the party that takes it—I swear that—I saw a hand, that was all—I saw a hand take the money and the voucher—the voucher is to show to the hand inside on what account the money is paid—this was the only sum, I paid it on 8th March—I do not pay in money every day, sometimes four or five times a week, it is uncertain—I always pay it in the same manner, to the hand inside.

WILLIAM WEBB . I am a carman in the employment of the South Western Railway Company—it is my duty to deliver goods and receive money for them—on 14th March I took the goods represented by this voucher (produced), and received the money, 26l. 8s. 4d—this is the receipt I gave—I paid the money into the pigeon-hole in the usual way—I do not know to whom I actually paid it—I paid it to some one.

Cross-examined. Q. What do you say was the amount you paid in? A. 26l. 8s. 4d., that was what I received—this receipt states 26l. 8s. 1d.—I received what is on the ticket; that is, 26l. 8s. 1d.,—it is calculated wrong on the voucher—I did not calculate it, somebody else put that in—the cashier asked me for 26l. 8s. 4d.—I can't say now who it was—we put in the voucher and the money, and do not see who takes it—I can swear that somebody took it, because we always put it through the loophole—I saw somebody take it—we do not stop any longer than to see that it is all right—I saw it taken away—I paid in 26l. 8s. 4d.—the odd threepence must have come out of my own pocket at that rate—I did not know that or I should not have done it—no one spoke to me from inside, only told me what the amount was, and I handed in the voucher and the money—I can't say who it was; they would merely say what the amount was, and of course I should pay it in—I did not see the amount put on it—if they had said 26l. 8s. 6d., I dare say I should have paid it.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Do you carry the money in your pocket A. Yes; I hand my bill in, the clerk in the office calls out a sum of money and then I pay it in.

JAMES EDWARD PERCIVAL . I am a clerk in the employment of Richard Buck and Co., of 1, Crosby-square, Bishopsgate—on 29th December last I paid to the prisoner a cheque for 72l. 9s.; this is it—it has been paid—it was on account of the South-Western Railway Company—I took a receipt from the prisoner at the time—on 13th April I paid him a further cheque of 107l. 14s. 4d., for which I also took a receipt from him—that closed our account with the company up to that time.

Cross-examined. Q. What was the date of that? A. The date of the cheque is 10th April, but it was paid on 13th—both the cheques were paid by me to the prisoner, and were returned in the usual way through our bankers—the 72l. 9s. cheque I think was paid somewhere about 12 o'clock in the day—I cannot tell the hour precisely—I had paid him many sums before that—I cannot say how many—I should think three or four during the year 1860, about the same amount—from December to April I did not pay him any—he called for payment of the account, when I gave him the last cheque—he called before it was paid to him—I had told him to call on a certain day and he would have it.

DUDLEY CHARLES LE SOUEF . I am chief cashier of the London and South-Western Railway Company, at the Waterloo Station—the prisoner was in the habit of accounting to me for sums of money that he received, three times a week—I account to the company for the sums of money paid to me by him—I received those sums on account of the company—I cannot trace that he has accounted to me for the sum of 16l. 1s. 4d. on 8th March, or for 26l. 8s. 4d., on 14th March, or for 72l. 9s. on 29th December, on account of Buck and Co.—there is no entry of any sum of money received about that time on account of Messrs. Buck—I do not find any sum accounted for on account of Buck in the course of the month of April—there is no sum of 107l. on account of Buck—on loth April he paid a cheque of 107l. 14s. 4d.—with that exception, there does not appear anything on Buck's account that 1 know of—it does not appear on whose account this is—the whole of this is in the prisoner's handwriting—it is the book he was in the habit of keeping as representing the amounts he paid to me—he was bound to pay every amount either to me or direct to the bank—this last cheque was paid direct into the bank for me—it would still appear in this book.

Cross-examined. Q. What book is that you are looking at? A. A book containing the amounts of money paid by the prisoner to me—it is in his handwriting—I make an entry when money is paid to me—I have not got, the book here—I know this to be his handwriting—it was handed to me at the time he paid the money—some of it was paid iu money, some in cheques—the cheques coming first, then the notes and gold, in lump sums—I enter it on a sheet, not in a book—there is no representation here upon whose account these sums are paid—I do not know anything about how it was discovered on whose account they were paid; I suppose the cashier at Nine Elms knows that—the prisoner does not pay money to that cashier—he has the keeping of the accounts—I allude to Mr. Hagreen—I am not aware that the prisoner ever paid money to him—the 72l. 9s. cheque has gone regularly through the company's bankers—the cheque for 107l. 14s. was paid into the bankers—I find it entered in the book—I did not say "that cheque," I said, A cheque"—it is entered on 15th April—that is the only way in which I know it was paid in.

Q. Do you find in that book entries of several cheques, all entered in one sum? A. There is one amount, I believe, which I should imagine consists of several cheques—I cannot tell that the 72l. 9s. was not amongst them; for aught I know it may have been—the lump sum is 140l. 12s. 8d.—that is on Monday, 31st December—the 72l. 9s. may or may not have been included in that amount—the prisoner used to stamp his cheques or put a mark upon them by which I knew them—there is no doubt this has gone in the regular course—it has the stamp of his department on the back—that proves that it came from him, and that it had gone from the company to the bankers—I have not got any of my books here—this cheque of 107l. odd was paid into the bankers by the prisoner—I know that, because I have it here in an item that has not got my initials to it—I do not know that it has gone to the credit of the company—it has been paid in from the company to the bankers—what they have done with it I cannot tell—I should imagine it went to the credit of the company, but I have no knowledge—as to this other cheque for 72l. 9s. I can only say that that has come from the company, and that it is crossed to our bankers—that has not the bankers' stamp on it—whether that was included in the lump sum of 31st December or not I cannot tell—my books would not show that, if they were here—I am unable to tell you what the several amounts of the cheques were which made up that lump sum—I should imagine that Mr. Hagreen could tell that, and the bankers also—the prisoner could also tell, but this book does not show it—Mr. Hagreen is the cashier at the Nine Elms' goods station, I am the cashier of the company, receiving all the receipts—I do not know whether Mr. Hagreen received money from the prisoner—when the prisoner handed me in money in the way I have stated, he has handed in a list of the separate cheques—most likely he did so on 31st December, but I have not got it.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. On 29th December, how much money appears to have been paid in? A. 169l. 7s. 11d.—each, item is given in detail there—the cheque for 72l. 9s. does not appear in that—on 31st December the gross amount appears to be 352l. 19s. 2d.—I received a list of what that sum consisted, that is the lump sum I find in this book.

COURT. Q. You stated that the lump sum was 140l. 12s. 8d.? A. Yes,.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Is there any other lump sum, except that 140l.? A. No, there is not, it is a most unusual thing; I have looked through the book, and do not remember to have seen any other instance of it; I will look; yes, there is another, on 4th February, 482l. 10s. 2d. the lump sum of the cheques—there is 144l. 10s. 6d. and I see there is another on 1st April, where the cheques amount to 139l. 4s. 1d.—I have looked on to the end of the book and there is nothing more, there are some at the beginning; in the course of business, if the prisoner received money on the Saturday, it would be his duty to pay it in on the Monday.

MR. RIBTON. Q. Look back to the beginning of the book, and tell me how many lump sums appear there? A. I will look them through and tell you presently.

COURT. Q. Does the stamp of your department specify the date? A. It does not, so that that would be no guide at all as to the time when the money would have been paid in—one of these cheques bears the stamp of Williams, Deacon, & Co, showing that it has passed through the bankers—the other is crossed to Williams & Co. but there is no mark showing it to have been there.

WILLIAM ILIFFE . I am clerk to Messrs. Williams, Deacon, & Co. bankers of the South Western Railway Company—I attend to the company's

account—I know the prisoner—he was in the habit of paying sums of money into the bankers, to the credit of the South Western Company—I have with me an account of the moneys paid in by him on 31st December last—I have the book here in my own haudwriting, the amount was 352l. 19s. 2d.—I am reading from my own cash book in which I enter the money received from the South Western Company, received by myself over the counter—I can tell of what sums that amount was made up, that is not in my writing, the clerk is here who entered it, and I examined it after it was entered, and am able to say that it is accurate.

COURT. Q. How did you examine it? A. I enter the total sum in my cash book; I then pass it over to a junior clerk, sitting behind, he particularizes the entry from this book which I give him, and the cheques—a list is handed over by the prisoner of the particulars of which the sum consists and the clerk makes his entry from that, and afterwards agrees the list with my book—the list is then destroyed; it is destroyed after a few months.

MR. WOOLLETT. Q. Of what did the 352l. 19s. 2d. consist? A. 60l. in bank notes, a cheque on Willis for 3l. 13s. 6d., on the Union Bank for 5l. 6s., on Martin's 12l. 1s. 1d. and 10l. 9s. 11d., on the London and County 11l. 11s. 9d., on the Union Bank, Charing-Cross 3l. 19s., on Glyn's 72l. 9s., on Challis 17l. 6s. 10d. and on the Bank of England 3l. 5s. 7d.

Cross-examined. Q. Is that cheque for 72l. 9s. the identical cheque which the prisoner is charged with embezzling? A. I have no doubt it is; that was placed to the credit of the company.

JAMES THOMAS HADDOW . I am district superintendent of the traffic on the London and South Western line—I have been in the service about ten years, and in that capacity for the last three years—I know the prisoner and the business he was in the habit of doing—he was appointed on 27th August—I have the minutes here—the first minute with reference to him is a minute of the Finance and Estates' committee, appointing him a clerk in the passenger audit office—that is signed by the chairman of the committee, and was afterwards confirmed by a minute of the board signed by the chairman—here is also a minute of the Finance committee of 19th June, 1856, appointing him cashier, and a minute of 26th June, 1856, of the board, confirming that appointment; it is signed by the chairman, Mr. Chaplin—the minute is "Cashier in Goods Delivery Department; read minutes, Mr. Stanford to be appointed a cashier in the Goods Collection and Delivery Department, at a salary of 125l. per annum, and to give security with the Guarantee society for 500l."—He continued to act in that capacity down to the time of his suspension on 23d April last—it was his duty to receive money from the carmen—at the time they gave him the money they would return him the vouchers which they took out, signed by the party who received the goods—if the money was not received, the carmen's voucher would be returned, and the bill of charges; in the event of payment it would be left as a receipt—if a bill was returned without the money it would be the duty of the prisoner to hand the bill to the collector, to call for the money the next day—he would mark the letters "0. S." on the voucher; that represents "outstanding"—I find the initials "0. S." on both these bills, of 26l. 8s. 4d. and 16l. 1s. 4d.—they are in the prisoner's writing, and the figures opposite the initials are his; that represents that neither of those sums had been received—it was his duty to keep a carman's cash-book—that is nut the book that has been spoken of by Mr. Le Souef; that is the remittance book—the prisoner enters in this the whole of the

gums that he receives from the collectors and carmen, at least the total amount of money; it is something like a banker's book—he used to clear himself of those amounts three times a week, either by paying them into the banker's or to Mr. Le Souef—this book also shows amounts that the prisoner received from Mr. Hagreen, the chief cashier, to pay into the bankers on his account—this (produced) is the carmen's cashbook—in this the amounts that are on these vouchers ought to appear—supposing he had received these two sums, they ought to appear in this book—it is kept by the prisoner—I find that on Friday, 8th March, there is an entry of a voucher for 16l. 1s. 4d. as outstanding; the number 1487, corresponds, with that on the sheet; and on the 14th March, voucher No. 1813, 26l. 8s. 4d. is entered as outstanding—supposing him to have received personally, a sum of money from Buck & Co., it would be his duty to enter that in a book called the "C. C." book, or the collector's cashbook—I have it here—there is no entry of 72l. 9s. on 29th December, nor of any amount received from Buck & Co. at that time—there are entries of many amounts received that day, amounting to 226l. 13s. 9d.—in the remittance book on 31st December, there is an amount paid in by the prisoner to Mr. Le Souef, amounting to 352l. 19s. 2d.; 246l. 3s. 6d. of that amount belongs to the delivery collectors and carmen—the other portion of the amount belongs to Mr. Hagreen's department, the station account; that includes this 72l. cheque—in those sums of money there would be a considerable amount in actual cash—there would be notes 60l. and cash 148l.—I do not find in the other book that I have referred to any notice whatever of Buck's cheque, or any entry of any payment by Buck—as far as our books are concerned, Back was still debited with that amount, and continued to be so until April—on 12th April there are items paid in or accounted for, forming 72l. 9s.—77l., 12s. 8d. is accounted for; that sum includes all the items that had been paid in by the 72l. 9s.

COURT. Q. You say accounted for; in what book? A. In the collector's cashbook—this is the collector's cashbook alone, not the collector's and carmen's; it is a distinct book—if the prisoner received money direct from Buck & Co. he should enter it in the collector's cashbook—the items are the same as the amount of those forming the 72l. 9s.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Have you calculated the sums of money, and do you find that there is a deficiency of 72l. 9s. although that cheque was paid in? A. Presuming that the 72l. 9s. has been placed to Buck & Co.'s account, there would still be a deficiency of 72l. 9s. treating their debt as paid—there would be a deficiency, in the general balance, of that amount—at that time the prisoner had a considerable amount of cash in his hand—there is an entry, in which he makes up a balance as due from Buck & Co.; that is in a list which he gave to Mr. Hagreen, which I know to be in the prisoner's handwriting—it is contained in this book; the collector's cash-book—it is headed "List of accounts collected by Mr. Stanford, and not accounted for to the South Western Railway"—I find, under the head of Willan & Co. the two sums of 16l. 1s. 4d. and 28l. 8s. 4d.—I also find certain sums under the head of Buck & Co.—I have calculated those sums, and they amount to 71l. 0s. 2d.

Cross-examined. Q. Do you know anything about a circular that was issued in August? A. Yes; in August, 1857, I think—it was signed by Mr. Scott, the traffic manager—it was sent to the prisoner amongst others—(This was dated 6th August, 1857, stating that for the future Mr. Hagreen would take charge of all monies received on account of traffic, goods, &c., and that payments

were to be made to him)—I do not know personally that that alteration was made in consequence of its being found that the accounts in various quarters had got into a great deal of confusion—I believe I did hear something of the sort at the time—I believe it was well known that it was in consequence of that that the circular was issued—I know exactly what duties the prisoner had to perform—he would have had nothing to do with the station account—that refers to the carriage of goods up and down, the monies received at the terminus for goods not delivered or carted for the company, but brought in or taken away by the persons to whom they were consigned—the prisoner would receive the total amount of cash from Mr. Hagreen in the morning—Mr. Hagreen would receive the account from the clerks in the office—there are three or four clerks—they would pay to Mr. Hagreen each night the sums they had received, and he would hand the lump sum over to the prisoner to pay into the bank, or to pay to Mr. Le Souef; one or the other—I suppose that would amount to about 100l. a day on the average—Mr. Hagreen would not hand that over to the prisoner every night—he would hand it over to him before he went to the banker's—the prisoner would be the means of conveying the money to the banker's—if he received it on the Monday he would hand it over to the prisoner on the Tuesday morning, if he was going to the banker's—he would hand it to him just previous to his going to the banker's, which was three times a-week—sometimes he would hand over the amount of two days' collections in one sum—he gave him no memorandums of the items; merely the lump sum—I have a book in which I can tell the sums he received from Mr. Hagreen on that account—this is the book—it is a memorandum book of cash paid in—some part of it is in the prisoner's writing, and some Mr. Hagreen's—the total figures at the bottom of each page are in the prisoner's writing—I will give you an illustration of the book—on 16th March there are certain cheques, mentioning the names and amounts, received by Mr. Hagreen on the station account, gold so much, sovereigns so much, half-sovereigns so much; the total, in Mr. Hagreen's handwriting, is 53l. 12s. 2d.—then comes Ponten—these are the amounts that Ponten received on the station account, 69l. 13s. 7d.—that is not in Ponten's handwriting, but in Mr. Hagreen's—Ponten is one of the three or four clerks I have mentioned—the total, 123l. 5s. 9d. is in Stanford's handwriting—that is the proportion of the delivery account that goes into the banker's—it is all in his own figares—the total of the whole is 427l. 8s. 5d.—304l. 2s. 8d. is the total of his share—the 427l. 8s. 5d. is in his writing—that should represent the sum be paid into the bank that day, and it does so—it is stated in the book by whom the money was handed to him—Mr. Hagreen's name does not appear; but it is in his handwriting, and no doubt he was the party paying the amount, with the exception of Ponten—Ponten would not pay the prisoner anything on that day, according to the book—it only shows the proportion, which the department was eutitled to—it was no part of the prisoner's duty to receive money upon the station account—I believe he did so only on one occasion—that was about March, 1860—with regard to the delivery account, it was his duty to receive the cash from the carmen and collectors—there were two collectors for some part of the time; since February last, and about sixty carmen—during the year 1860, there was one collector, and I suppose the carmen would be about the same—Fry was the name of the collector—I am well acquainted with the pigeon-hole that has been spoken of—it was the prisoner's duty to be inside that pigeon-hole—there was no other cashier or receiver of cash, except be might have allowed Ponten to do

it; but that, of course, would be by his instruction—the only two persons who were likely to receive money there would be the prisoner and Ponten—Ponten should not do it—I do not know that he did—I have heard so—there were no others to my knowledge in the habit of receiving money from the carmen—I never heard that Grimsdick received cash during that time—there is a room behind the pigeon-hole—there are only the prisoner and Ponten in that room; no one else—the two collectors would go there of an evening; after 6 o'clock, perhaps, to settle up with the prisoner what they had taken during the day—I should think they would be the only parties in the room—I do not know whether Mr. Hagreen knows more of the department than I do—I have seen a great deal of the working of it—the carmen would not come there at all times in the day—from 6 till 10 o'clock at night is the time to receive money—the collectors would no doubt go there to settle after the day's round—I know a person named Cooper, who was in the service of the company—I should think he must have ceased to be in their service three and a half years—there were no defalcations at that time that 1 know of—I never heard of anything of the sort—I do not know that the clerks are sometimes in the habit of borrowing from each other upon I.O.U.'s—I have heard it since the prisoner has been in custody; that they have borrowed from the prisoner—not for the purposes of the company, certainly not—they might receive money from him which would be entered in a book, and they might sign for the amount there—I am not aware that instead of that I.O.U.'s have been given to him—I thought you were alluding to money borrowed from the prisoner personally—I have heard of I.O.U.'s being given to him for that—I do not know that he has given money to the other clerks for the purposes of the company, and that he has received I.O.U.'s from them for that money—I swear that—I have not heard of any except money borrowed for their own purposes—I have heard that he has had these I.O.U.'s to some extent, and that some of them were handed over when he was called upon to settle his accounts, but I do not know it of my own knowledge—I never heard of Mr. Hagreen's brother making mistakes in his accounts—I heard, at the examination, that Mr. Hagreen had paid 170l. for him—I know nothing of it, except what I heard at the police-court—I heard Mr. Hagreen's answer to the question put to him—I believe it was that he had paid 170l.—his brother is not still in the employment of the company—I do not know that the money was paid to the company by Mr. Hagreen—I did not hear him say that—I understood that he had paid 170l. on account of his brother, for debts owing by him at Southampton, not to the company—that was how I understood it.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. What position did Ponten occupy in the establishment? A. Ledger clerk under the prisoner—in the ordinary course of business he would be in that office—he was not in any way responsible to the company for the monies received—it is no part of his duty to receive them.

CHARLES HAGREN . I am in the employment of the South Western Railway Company, and have been so rather better than fifteen years—I recollect speaking to the prisoner about a sum of 21l. 18s. 10d., which I supposed was outstanding on account of the Fusilier Guards—in consequence of his answer, I said to him, "I am afraid that is not all"—he said, "It is not"—he had called me out, and told me that it was no use my sending for it, for he had received the amount—he afterwards supplied me with the list in this book—at the time he did so, he said, "This is the list of amounts that I have received and not accounted for.".

Cross-examined. Q. Do you know that that was handed to you after be and a person of the name of Grimsdick had been going over the accounts for some days? A. Yes; some weeks—Grimsdick is in the company's service—I knew that they had been going over the accounts—this list was not the result of that examination—it was handed to me after they had been going over the accounts, but not as a result of that—at the end of 1857, there was a surplus of 300l., which could not be accounted for or explained—I went over the accounts to endeavour to find out how it was, and could not—it does not follow from that, that the accounts must have been incorrect—it must have been through discrepancies in the carrying out—errors in the accounts would be different from discrepancies in the carrying out—errors of accounts are susceptible of being found out, but discrepancies in carrying out are not—Buppose, for instance, an item is ordered to be made paid; it might be 1s. and be carried out one 1l.; that would be a discrepancy in carrying out—by an error of account I mean simply a miscalculation; it might be 1s. entered as 1l.—it could not be accounted for by sums being paid in and no entry being made of them—I should get no money unless there was an entry of it—no money is paid into the company without there is a record of it—it would not happen that money would be paid in without any entry being made of it—the company would get no credit for it unless there was a return—I handed over to the company about 300l. surplus, which could not be accounted for, and they received it and gave me 30l. for my honesty—I have occasionally made mistakes myself in accounts; not very often—I did not enter 60l. which ought to have been 100l.—I entered it from a book where the figure was put down as 60l.—it was no mistake further than this, that I ought to have detected it—the prisoner was credited with the balance 40l.—that mistake was discovered by Grimsdick in going over the books, and set right—I have here a list of mistakes in reference to the account—it is a not a list of my mistakes; it is a list of the mistakes in Stanford's account—it is a list which Grimsdick made out, and which I recognist as being correct—some of them were mistakes of my own making—I cannot tell how many—I have not made many mistakes; I should say not half-a-dozen—it was not forgetting to enter sums that I received; they were chiefly errors in addition—that is all that I am aware of—it is impossible for me to say over fifteen years; errors only occur to me as they arise—I have made mistakes, and where id there a man that has not—there have at times been complaints that there were not clerks enough in some of the departments; not very often—Stanford complained in 1859 that he had too much to do, and that ho required an additional clerk, and he had another found him—he had been complaining of the want of Tone, it might be for three or four months before he got one—not constantly; occasionally—he has never complained since then that he has had too much to do, not to my knowledge—there is only himself, in a general way, to receive money from the carmen—his clerk would occasionally assist there; that is Ponten; no one else—I do not know as a fact that money has been received from the carmen by other persons besides the prisoner, only by his own arrangement—in one instance, I recollect it some time since, he had a party named Nee to attend for him one night when he was away, for his own convenience—Nee is a clerk under me—he received it on Stanford's authority, so Stanford told me himself—I have said that inaccuracies and mistakes in the accounts were so likely to occur that 10l. a year ought to be allowed for them—I said that about the period of his suspension—that was after he had got the additional clerk—on one occasion, in going through the accounts, I found that there was

a balance of 47l. against the prisoner—that was a balance which he ought to have paid, and which he could not account for, which he was unable to tell me anything about—I received his I. 0. U. for that sum—I paid a sum of 170l. on account of some of my brother's mistakes—he was not prosecuted; there was no occasion—the same thing did not happen with reference to another clerk as to a sum of 160l.—there was another clerk deficient 160l. and I, out of kindness, gave him time, believing it was a mistake on his part—that was in the present year—I am not aware that there have been frequent complaints from the several departments that there was not a sufficient number of clerks—there has been from the prisoner's department, and one other, the Down office—that is all that I am aware of—we have given them an additional number in the Down office, but not in the particular department from which the complaint was made—my brother's transaction was eight or ten years ago—it is since then, and since the other clerk's deficiency, that the additional clerks have been appointed—I do not know that the prisoner, since the irregularities in his accounts were discovered, has given a bill of sale in order to raise money on his house and furniture to pay the company—I have not heard him say so—he was suspended on 23d April, and was given into custody on 21st May—he had to go out to collect as occasion required, within the last two or three years—I allowed him for that the usual rate allowed to the collectors; Is. a day additional—he did not go out every day; sometimes two days a week, and sometimes four—he would be out the principal part of the day—he could not travel far; he would leave the station about 12 or 1, and be back again at six—I suppose he would be collecting accounts at different places during that time—after his return at 6 he would have to go in behind the pigeon-hole—it has not happened to my knowledge that in his absence money has been paid in and received by some-body else at the pigeon-hole—I have not heard it—he would remain at the office until about ten minutes to 10—he was there from half-past 9 in the morning till ten minutes to 10—before he went out to collect he would be making up his previous night's cash; that would be the different amounts he had received when out collecting, and the amounts paid in by the carmen—those amounts he would not hand over to me; he would send them direct to the cashier at Waterloo, Mr. ls Souef—I know nothing about his paying in to the bank—he was supposed to pay it at Waterloo—I used to band him over money to pay at Waterloo—I am not aware that I have handed him over money to pay into the bank—I should say, on an average, from 1,000l. to 1,200l. a week would pass through his hands; made up of the sums received from the carmen and from myself—he would have to make entries in three or four books—it was with my knowledge that Grimsdick was going over the accounts with him—he gave Grimsdick every assistance—it was not in consequence of their search of the books that these defalcations were discovered—this list was handed to me subsequently.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. How long was it after your inquiry about the 21l. 18s. 10d. that this list was handed to you? A. I am unable to say—it was in a period of from three to nine days—at the time he handed it to me I cannot say that he gave any explanation of the defalcations; he merely handed it in, and stated that it was a list of the amounts he had received and not accounted for—the transactions with regard to my brother were not at all connected with these transactions—I took it upon my own responsibility in order to serve him—with regard to the I.O.U. I accepted from the prisoner, that was not known to the company; that was also on my own responsibility—there was at no time any difference between us in reference to a cheque

for 54l. odd, as to the delivery account or the station account: I deducted a sum of 54l. 11s. 9d. from the delivery account, because the prisoner had the cheque and realized the amount—that was deducted by me in the prisoner's presence, and with his sanction—it was deducted from the delivery account—I cannot say that it ought to have been deducted from the station account—had he left the cheque with me I should have deducted it from the station account—it was a cheque that had been paid in by the firm of Cooper and Hornby, and it was refused to be received at Waterloo by our then cashie—the prisoner retained that cheque, and the amount was reduced by the cashier at Waterloo—the prisoner took the cheque and realized the amount; I mean he cashed the cheque, and he paid the amouut in on the following week—that is the only occasion that I recollect of a matter of that kind with a cheque of that description.

CHARLES HARVEY (re-examined by MR. RIBTON). I saw Grimsdick and the prisoner going over the accounts together—there were some I.O.U.'s handed to me by the prisoner, to the amount of about 22l. or 23l. speaking from memory—I have them here; some of them have since been paid to the company by the clerks, partly by being stopped from their salary and partly by their advancing the money—I do not remember the prisoner requesting me to go over the books with him in 1857, nor do I remember declining and stating that it was simply a dispute between him and Mr. Hagreen—I think if it was so I should have remembered it—he drew my attention to the 54l. which has been spoken of—I saw that error; he named it to me—that was about a week after he was suspended—in addition to the I.O.U. he handed me five sovereigns in cash.

MR. LE SOURF (re-examined). I find there are sixteen entries in the lump sum in the book that I have been referring to.

MR. HAGREEN (re-examined). The prisoner told me he was promised a cheek for 100l.—that was before he was suspended, in the early part of April.


19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-720
VerdictGuilty > with recommendation

Related Material

720. THOMAS STANFORD was again indicted for unlawfully obtaining, by false pretences, 21l. 18s. 10d., of William Smith, and 15l. 3s. 10d. of Arthur Waring, with intent to defraud.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE, with MESSRS. LILLEY and WOOLLETT, conducted the Prosecution

CHARLES HAGREKN . I am chief cashier of the goods department of the London and South Western Railway Company—I have been fifteen years in their service, filling the office of chief cashier at Nine Elms—the prisoner was a clerk in the Nine Elms' office—it was his duty up to February last to receive the carmen's accounts—he also collected certain other debts that were outstanding, by my instructions—I do not mean by my instructions with regard to each specific sum he was to receive—the character of those debts would vary, but they would be accounts that were outstanding—in consequence of some matters which occurred in the office, I gave him verbal instructions that he was to discontinue from that time going out collecting; but there was an exception made in the case of Buck and Co. on account of their being rather difficult to deal with in working the account, and therefore it was considered that it was better to remain in his hands—that was the only exception—it would be in opposition to those directions for him to obtain 21l. 18s. 10d. from quartermaster Smith of the Fusilier Guards; or 15l. 3s. 10d. from Frost on account of Waring—until I spoke to him on the subject of these accounts, I had not theleast idea that he had received either of them—if he had been authorized to receive them, it would have been his

duty to enter them in the C. C. book—I find no entry of those name except in the defalcation list—he did not make payments to me—he handed his money over to his own clerk, Ponten, by my instructions, in my presence, on 23d April; I think it was 128l. odd—I told him that thai was not sufficient for the amount he had received from the carmen on that day—there was the carmen's book total to tell me what he had received—he said that that was all he had—I asked him where the difference was, and he made a remark about having paid 10l. to Ponten—he did not mention or give me any account of 15l. 3s. 10d.—it was the same day that I spoke to him about the Fusiliers' account; he introduced the subject to me—I instructed a clerk, Mr. Grimsdick, to make out the account which he collected—I cannot say that 21l. 18s. 10d. was mentioned in the prisoner's presence—I saw the item standing open in the A. C. book, and I gave instructions in reference to that item—this was in the prisoner's own office, and be requested me to go out with him into the corridor, and told me it was of no use sending, for he had received the amount of the Fusilier Guards—there was no amount named—there were people in the room at the time—it was after that that be gave an account of his defalcations, and in that these two sums were put down.

Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. Is Grimsdick here to-day? A. I have seen him hero I believe—I desired him to make the account out, but I cannot swear positively—he was the cashier under me—he had to account to me for all the monies he received, and pay them over to the chief cashier at Waterloo—he might pay into the bank, but did not to my knowledge—he accounts to me in figures without paying me—the money was paid in three times a week, about midday; he would go to the secretary, and from the secretary would go out collecting—he would make up his accounts before 12 o'clock—he only accounted to me once a week—he paid in three times a week—he paid money in before he accounted—whatever money he had in his hands in the week he settled with, me, and at the end of the week a balance was struek—when I my he accounted to me, the account was an account of the various sources from which he derived the funds which he had paid to Mr. Le Sone—if he paid me in the course of the week in the three payments 1,100l., he would give Le Souef a list of the dates and the notes, and the gold, but not saying from whence they were received; and at the end of the week he furnished me with an account of the various parties by whom the money was paid—he furnished no account on 15th April—we finished the week up to the Sunday—he generally struck his balance on the Wednesday—on Wednesday the 17th, the Wednesday following the 15th, when the money was secured, he rendered me an account in the ordinary way of the monies he had paid into the bank—the account he rendered me was up to the 15th, up to Saturday (referring to a book)—he accounted to me on the 13th for 32l. 4s. 9.,; that is composed of twentyfive items, representing money he had received independent of the carmen—the carmen's is given in one lump—he did not furnish me with an account except putting his books before me—the books were not actually put before me on the 13th, but they were accessible to me—I do not remember whether I went through them on the Wednesday—I made up the accounts—I could not do that without looking at the books—by making up the accounts, I mean debiting him with all he has received, and crediting him with his expenditure—there is no date to guide me as to whether I did do so—I have got the book before me—I put no date in it at the time I make up the accounts—there is the date of the week—I should say that I made

this account on the Wednesday, but should be sorry to swear to it; it might be on the Thursday—I swear that there is no date in the book to show when I made it up—I call it the cash balance book—this that I made out up to 13th April, was copied from the books kept by the prisoner—I have got it here (produced)—the 13th is all in the prisoner's writing—all the other days are in Ponten's writing—it is the carmen's cash-book—it contains an account of the various sums, small and large, received from the carmen only, through the pigeon-hole—this 87l. 18s. on 8th April is not in one sum, it is the result of his additions—they are either his figures, or Ponten's—I do not add them up to see if they are correct—I take the addition that is given me as being infallibly correct—I have added them up to see if there are mistakes, and I have found occasional mistakes—I have not found errors against himself, large or small—I have found that in respect to other parties, mistakes have been made both against, and in favour of the company, but nothing like 5l. or 10l., nothingimportant, only a few pence—I am not dealing with errors of calculation, I am dealing with additions—I admit having found mistakes on both sides, but the errors were unimportant in amount—I never recollect an instance of 1l.—the balance of 300l. in favour of the Company, which I spoke of yesterday, may have arisen from mistakes in calculation in reference to pounds, and not to pence—this (produced) is the C. C. book—this represents the money that has been collected out of doors—it is not all in the prisoner's writing—the prisoner copies the book in his office—he has one clerk, whose name is Ponten—this entry, "April 13th," and others, appear to be the prisoner's writing—this "Legg, Exeter, 4l. 19s. 8d." is Ponton's—I cannot see that it was entered first 4l. 9s.—I should be sorry to say that the shillings have been altered—I do not feel certain—this first entry of mine, "Collector, 8l. 6s. 4d.," I got from this book—they are my figures—I made a point of adding this book up—this 19s. did not attract my attention—I cannot say whether there have been erasures or corrections in the collector's book—this 19l. 16s. 11d. are my figures I am sure—this book, which I have copied, commences with a balance of 18l. 12s. 3d.—he had not paid close up the week before, and had got that in hand—I mean that he paid 18l. 12s. 3d. less than he ought—he did not give any account of it—it was money which he ought to have paid over on the 13th, but which he retained in his possession—next week, beginning with the 15th, we commence with a balance—he then commences with a portion of the 18l. which he had retained the week before—the balance in his hands is less—that balance has gone on from the end of last year, when he paid close up—whether he had any occasion to keep money in his hands, would depend upon circumstances, on adding up I find there is a difference, and carry the balance on to the next week; the balance is one for which he is responsible to the Company—it is not in cash, but in vouchers—he has vouchers in his possession at the end of the week, which he has to realize in amounts down the line—I eater in this book the cash that is entered in the collector's book and the carmen's—the carmen would not realize the amounts—here is entered "Vouchers, 87l.," and "Vouchers, 556l. 4s. 2d."—that represents cash, but probably he has not realized the whole of it.

COURT. Q. Does he debit himself with that amount? A. Yes—if it is not cash, it should be—all he had to do was to draw the money from the Down office.

MR. RIBTON. Q. When you balance each account at the end of the week and find that both colums do not agree, do you carry that balance forward, debiting him with the amount? A. Yes—he admits having the money,

and he should have paid it over—that has been going on from January, 1861—I am not aware that the Directors are aware of this—on 23d April, I directed somebody to make out the Fusiliers' account: that bad been owing about three weeks—it was early in April when it took place—it was at the end of January, or the beginning of February, that I told the prisoner not to collect—I had authority for that from the superintendent—he called my attention to Stanford collecting accounts, as there was an additional collector appointed; and told me to tell Stanford to collect no longer—he assigned no other reason—I took the reason to be that there was an additional collector appointed—I believe I then told Grimsdick to make out the account—I believe he was to collect them—it was in the prisoner's own office that I told the prisoner he was not to collect any more—I went direct from the superintendent's office—Mr. Godson is the superintendent—I do not know whether he is here now—Mr. Pitching is the additional clerk—one clerk could not do it all—he was not the only collector, but we wanted another—to the best of my belief, Fry was present in the office when I told the prisoner—I mean to say that Bucks' is the only account I told the prisoner he might collect—he would go specially for that, and for no other—I first spoke to the prisoner about these matters on 23d April—the conversation which resulted in his being suspended—it was at the beginning of February that I told him not to collect—nobody had drawn my attention to the balance being carried over every week—Grimsdick is the only person who has overlooked these books for the company—he went, over them with the prisoner before he was suspended—I desired him to do so—no one had desired me to tell him to do so—I have not heard of any inquiry being set on foot to find out the notes paid by the Fusilier Guards; but the question was asked of the bank-clerk at the police-court—I do not know that it has been stated that the notes were paid in to the credit of the company—there is a person named McCarthy in the service of the company—he is superintendent of the delivering department—there is a small amount owing now from the Fusilier Guards-there was some dispute in reference to that account being overcharged—I do not know that the prisoner brought back the account front the Fusilier Guards about which the mistake was, and gave it to McCarthy to be set right—I cannot say whether McCarthy is here, or the bank-clerk—I only know from the prisoner's remittance book what sort of coin or money he pays to the bank, or to the cashier, three times a week—if the Fusilier Guards paid with certain notes, I should have no means of knowing that those identical notes had been paid in to the credit of the company—it cannot be discovered by a search into the books of the Company, because he kept no record of the note—he paid the monies to Mr. Le Souef, but paid in the lump—on one occasion I paid 170l. for my brother through a mistake—I did not pay 160l. for another clerk who was deficient—I gave him time to arrange it, but he did not arrange it—it is still standing now—the Company know of it—they knew of it at the same time that they knew of this—I found it out just at the same time as Stanford's—the other clerk's name was Crouch—I gave him time to arrange it without the knowledge of the Company, but afterwards I reported it—I may have known it a week before I reported it—I said yesterday that it was without the knowledge of the Company—I meant only for a week—I cannot say what has become of Crouch—I believe he is in 'the service of the Company—on another occasion there was a sum of 47l., which I allowed the prisoner to pay by an I. 0. U. on balancing the account—I know that, at the time he was taken up he handed over to Mr. Harvey IOU's to the

amount of 24l.—I do not know whether they were for other clerks—at the time he was suspended, I heard that he had been in the habit of giving money in that way to the clerks—there was a month between his suspension and his being taken in custody—he was at the office for the first week, going over his accounts, not with Grimsdick, but by himself—it was alter that that he furnished me with a list of his defalcations, and in that list were these two sums which he is charged with obtaining.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. You have mentioned to the Jury the distinction between the carmen's account and the out-door account, was there that distinction? A. Yes; Bucks' was an out-door account, and there were other out-door accounts, which, up to February, it was the prisoner's duty to collect—there were outstanding accounts, of which Waring's account, and that of the Fusilier Guards, would be a portion—the carmen's account were entered in a separate book—the out-door accounts were entered in the C. C. book, which would not show anything of the carmen's account—from February, when I gave him the directions in relation to the out-door accounts, he did not profess to have collected any except Bucks', or accounted for any, as though he had collected them, that I know of—on 23d April, the day after he collected the 15l. 3s. 10d., he made no mention to me of having received the money—when he took me out of his office and told me it was of no use sending for that account for he had collected it, he did not tell me that he had paid it again in any shape whatever—when he gave me the list of what he alleged to be defalcations, he did not account to me for having collected these two sums—he gave me no explanation whatever.

WILLIAM SMITH . I am quartermaster of the 2d battalion of Fusilier Guards—on 1st April. some luggage belonging to that battalion was removed by the South Western Railway—I received no communication from the Company of the amount that was due, and wrote to them for the account on the 9th, and on the 15th, a person called with the account, and I paid him 21l. 18s. 10d.—he signed the receipt "Stanford"—he said that he was a cashier, and had called from the Great Western Railway, for this bill to be paid—it was on the faith of that statement that I paid him the 21l. 18s. 10d

Cross-examined. Q. Was there another account due which they had had some dispute about? A. There was, the amount of it was 2l. 2s., it had been owing only since 2d April—somebody has called for it since—I had never seen the person before, who received the money—I do not recognise the prisoner as the man—I did not take the number of the notes—I paid 15l. in notes, and the remainder in gold—I know no means of finding out the numbers—I cannot say from whom I received them, but I believe I got them from the Windsor Bank—I received nearly 400l. there—I have made no inquiries there.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Whoever came, you paid the money to; did he sign this receipt at the time? A. He did.

CHARLES HAGREEN (re-examined). The whole of this receipt is in the prisoner's writing.

MR. RIBTON. Q. Whose writing is the body of it? A. Stanford's—the account I requested Grimsdick to make out, was not made out, because I was stayed in it by his telling me he had received the money.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Was it a fortnight after the 15th, when you gave directions to Grimsdick to make out the account? A. It was on the 23d—I told him to write out the account that stood in the book against

the Fusilier Guards, in the prisoner's presence and hearing—it was then for the first time that I heard the prisoner say that he had collected it—he had no authority to do so—when he said so, I said, "I am afraid that is not all"—he said, "It is.".

WILLIAM FROST . I am clerk to Mr. Arthur Waring, of 123, Fencburch-street, who owed the Great Western Railway 15l. 3s. 10d.—the prisoner came on the 22d April, and produced several vouchers, and among them this one, which contains an account of several amounts, amounting to 15l. 3s. 10d.—I paid him the money, and he signed this receipt (produced) in my presence.

Cross-examined. Q. How long had the account been owing? A. Some of it since January 11th and 23d—the most recent amount is 13th April, 1861—four accounts have been sent in, one for each separate charge—they are all contained in the account which is receipted—the prisoner came with that when I paid him—I know that frequent applications have been made by him before—I believe I received an account a few days after the date—he made two applications for payment on January 7th—there was some dispute about it—I claimed what they call a rebate on the former account—that was an allowance of 1s. 6d. a ton for some things at Warrington—the prisoner had called several times—I do not recollect in what coin I paid him—I made uo entry but the amount.

CHARLES HAGREEN (re-examined). This receipt is all in the prisoner's writing.

CHARLES GRIMSDICK (Examined by Mr. Ribton). I did not know of the prisoner going for these amounts to the Fusilier Guards—I made out the account, and handed it to Stanford for collection—I have not the slightest idea when that was, but it may have been in the beginning of April—I know it was not the latter end—that was all I heard about it at that time—I am chief clerk in the down goods' office—Stanford asked me to assist him in going through his accounts and making them up, and I assisted him for not quite three months before his suspension—I concluded on the day he was suspended—after his suspension I was appointed to take charge of his department, and I still attend to make his accounts up—I detected a great many errors—there was a mistake of 60l. entered 100l., or 100l. entered 60l., but which way it was I cannot say—I do not know that at that time he was trying to raise money on a bill of sale—I have heard that he had realized a bill of sale at the time—I do not fill his place now, I am in the same department, but in a very inferior position.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Have you been subpoenaed by the defendant? A. Yes; I did not go through the accounts with a view to assist him—I was asked by the chief cashier to assist in examining the accounts, to see if there were any defidcations, and to see if I could point out the errors—I was assisting the prisoner down to his suspension—he did not mention to me that he had received 21l. 18s. 10d., or 15l. 3s. 10d.—these bills are in his writing—I remember being told by Mr. Hagreen to make out the Fusiliers' account—I had not the slightest knowledge at that time that it bad been collected—I had no authority to give the prisoner any directions at all—I did not know that he had been directed not to collect any outstanding accounts.

GUILTY.—Recommended to mercy by the Jury

Confined Twelve Month

Before Mr. Justice Blackburn

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-721
VerdictGuilty > lesser offence

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721. WILLIAM HOSFORD (28) , Feloniously stabbing and wounding Eliza Budd, with intent to murder her. Second Count, with intent to do grievous bodily harm.

MR. DICKLE conducted the Prosecution.

ELIZA BUDD . I have been living with the prisoner as his wife—my husband has deserted me—I became acquainted with the prisoner in the workhouse, and afterwards went to live with him—on 11th August, the day before this occurrence, we had some words—he showed me a knife—I asked him what he had sharpened it for—he told me to cut his finger-nails with—he shut it up—he held it up to me in a threatening manner, and I went away—I saw him next on Sunday morning, between 1 and 2 o'clock, when I came home—he was in bed—I asked him what he was going to do with the lodger, down stairs, and he said nothing; if I was not out of the room he would let me see what he would do to me—I told him I should not go out as it was my own home—on that he jumped out of bed, and took the knife from under his pillow—It was a penknife like that I had seen the day before—he rushed to the door where I was standing, caught hold of my hair with his left-hand, and with his right-hand drew the knife across my throat—I screamed out murder, I was overcome with the loss of blood, and recollect no more—I have been under the care of a surgeon since—my throat was cut—this is the knife (produced)—I never knew him sleep with & knife under his pillow before.

Prisoner. Her keeping company with another man was the instigation of my doing what I have done—she came home intoxicated and abused me—I asked if she was tired, and she said, "What is that to you?" Witness. It is no such thing.

BARNARD CONOLLY . I am a labourer, and live at 1, Duke-street, Mint-street, Southwark, the same house as the prosecutrix—about half-past 1 on this Sunday morning, I heard her screaming murder—I ran up stairs to the prisoner's room, and there saw him having hold of the prosecutrix by the hair of her head with his left-hand, dragging her along the boards, and an open knife in his right hand—the prosecutrix was bleeding from the neck—I got hold of him and got him down, and after some difficulty got the knife from him—I sent for a policeman and a surgeon.

Prisoner. Q. Was there not more than one man besides you that came up stairs? A. No. Prisoner. That's enough—I leave it quite in the hands of the Jury now.

SARAH JENKINS . I live in the same house—the day before this took place the prisoner came to my window and sharpened a penknife for about ten minutes—this is the knife—the prosecutrix was in my room talking to me and Conolly—the prisoner pointed the knife at her, as much as to say she should have the contents of it, and the look he gave her was enough to cut any one through.

THOMAS EVANS . I am a surgeon, at 159, High-street, Southwark—I was called in to attend the prosecutrix—I found her lying on a bed insensible, bleeding from a wound in the upper part of the throat, about two inches long—it might have been inflicted with a penknife—it would not have proved fatal as it was, if it had gone deeper it might—it was not a deep wound—it would not require much force to inflict such a wound with such an instrument—if much force had been used it would have been deeper.

ROBERT RETHER (Policeman, M) 98. On this Sunday morning, in consequence of information, I went to 1, Duke-street—I heard a man's voice up stairs, saying, "Give me the knife"; or "shut the knife"—I went into the room and found the prosecutrix lying on the floor bleeding from a wound in the throat—the prisoner was on the right-hand side of the room, and Conolly on the left—Conolly gave me this knife, stating that the prisoner had cut the prosecutrix's throat—the prisoner said it was done in the scuffle—the prosecutrix

was then lying on the bed—she muttered something, and tried to get up, but fell right back again.

THOMAS GARDINER (Policeman, M 25). I was at the station when the prisoner was brought in, about quarter-past 3 in the morning—I took the charge against him, of cutting and wounding Eliza Budd with a knife, with intent to murder her—he said he did it because she aggravated him.

GUILTY of unlawfully wounding. — Confined Twelve Months

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-722
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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722. EDWARD FORDHAM (21) , Stealing 1 pair of boots, the property of Henry Frederick Adams; 2 coats, and other articles, the property of Joseph Quick and Frederick Ford; and 1 dressing gown and coat, the property of William Arbuthnot; to which he.

PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-723
VerdictGuilty > unknown; Guilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment; Imprisonment

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723. GEORGE HEALY (17), and JOHN WELDON (17) , Robbery with violence on Frances Frost, and stealing from her 1 purse, and 2l. 2s. 9d., her money.

MR. PARK conducted the Prosecution

FRANCES FROST . I am the wife of Edward Henry Frost, and live at St. James'-place, Bermondsey—about 12 o'clock on the morning of Monday,. 5th August, I was going down Long-lane, Bermondsey—when about halfway down I was pounced on by somebody—I had my purse in my right hand—we had a short struggle and he extricated the purse from my hand—it contained two sovereigns, a half-crown, and threepence—I was about to follow the thief who had run some few yards, when some young youths came up and asked me what was the matter—I paid very little attention and made no reply, but followed the person with my purse—at that time I was tripped up, I cannot say by whom—I fell and was injured very much—my dress and mantle were torn all to pieces—I was quite unconscious for some time after.

Healey. Q. Did you see me take the purse? A. No, I did not—I did not see you against me—I fell a very short time after I lost my purse—I had two falls; the first was a minute after my parse was taken, and the second time I tripped over my dress after it was torn, I think.

Weldon. Q. Did I take the purse? A. No—I think you were there—I will not say; I was very much flurried.

CHARLES REED . I am a painter, and live at 20, Great May's-court, Balls-pond—on Monday, 5th August, I was at work on some ruins joining Smith's-buildings, when the screams of a female attracted my attention, and I saw running ahead—the prisoner ran after him, saying that they would apprehend the prisoners in the act of getting her down—after she was down they ran him—he and Mr. Poolbrook. my brother-in-law, went in pursuit, and I being a little way behind sung out, "Stop the three"—I took one, and my brother-in-law took the other—we did not catch the third—he went after him, but did not catch him.

Healey. Q. Which way was I getting the lady to the ground? A. Your hands were on her, forcing her to the ground—she fell on her side on a bank—both of you had got your hands upon her—I was about sixteen yards from you.

Weldon. Q. Did you see the lady the first time she fell, or the second time? A. I only saw her fall once.

WILLIAM POOLBROOK . I am a carman in the employ of Mr. Reed, and live at Long-line, Bermondsey—on this Monday, I was at work on the

ruins in Smith's-buildings—my attention was called by a female screaming, "Stop thief!"—I turned round and saw the two prisoners in the act of pushing the lady down with their hands, and then away they went in pursuit of the other one, who was about ten yards ahead of them—my brother called out, "Capture the three"—I ran up and took Weldon—when I got him, he said he was innocent, or else he would not allow me to take him.

JOHN MCMILLAN (Policeman, M 272). I took charge of the prisoneres—I found one penny on Weldon.

Healey's Defence. I and this man were going down Long-lane about 12 o'clock, and heard the lady screaming; we ran to see what was the matter, and just as we arrived to assist her, she fell on the ground; she says she fell through her dress. When she got up she said, "Stop that boy, he has stolen my purse." We tried to catch him, and these men took us; the lady said at the station that she did not know us, and that she was sure we were innocent.

Weldon's Defence. It is quite correct what this chap has said.

HEALEY— GUILTY .*— Confined Twelve Months

WELDON— GUILTY . †— Confined Twelve Months

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-724
VerdictGuilty > unknown

Related Material

724. JOHN CAMPBELL (38), and JAMES CAMPBELL (27) , Unlawfully having counterfeit coin in their possession.

MESSRS. CLERK and UNDERWOOD conducted the Prosecution. JAMES BRANNAN. On Friday morning, 19th July, at 8 o'clock, I received information, and proceeded to a house in the New-cut, accompanied by other officers, where we conoealed ourselves—the house commanded a view of Windmill-street—at 9 o'clock I saw the prisoner James come up Windmill-street from the direction of Little Windmill-street, and join four or five men that were standing there—they all remained together for some time, and then two of them departed—he prisoner James went back in the same direction, and when he had been gone about five minutes he returned—there were then some additional men there, and he joined them—he then went away a second time in the same direction that he had come, and came back again—then he went down a third time, and on his return, at the bend of the street, by my direction he was seized by Sergeant Elliott—there is a bend in the street, so that we could not see Little Windmill-street from where we were placed—Elliott seized him, and I immediately went to his assistance—after Elliott had his hands in his pocket, he said, "Come on, sir, I have got him"—at that time all the other officers were there—they seized him, and Elliott and I ran to Little Windmill-street where I saw the prisoner John Campbell with another man run out of the house—he had neither coat, waistcoat, nor neck-handkerchief on—Elliott attempted to seize him, and he struck at him, and also at me—I said, "If you hit me I will knock you down"—Elliott hung to his neck, having no other mode of seizing him, and he said to me, "He has got it in his left hand"—I saw this black bag in his left hand, which he had closed like this, hitting at us with—he then said, "Here it is, Mr. Brannan, take it, that's all I have got"—we then pushed him into the house, and at that time James Campbell was brought up by the other officers—when the two prisoners were together, I said, "Mr. Campbell, I have received instructions from the authorities of the Mint to look after you, and endeavour to put a stop to your mischievous practice in dealing so largely in counterfeitcoin"—he said, "I have not been long at it, Mr. Brannan; my brother has been very ill; he is but just gone out; he knows nothing about it"; pointing to the prisoner James—he

repeated two or three times that his brother knew nothing about it—I opened this bag (produced) and placed it on the table—it contained 9 halfcrowns, 15 florins, and 3 shillings, separately wrapped in this tissue-paper, as it now appears—it is all bad—the house consists of two rooms, one above the other—a number of other things were found in the house, but not by me—I found in a little bag upstairs 2l. 9s. 6 1/2 d. good money—this galvanio battery was also found—it is used for making counterfeit coin—the coin is pot in this wire, and dipped in the solution until the solution sticks—about twenty might be plated in this at once—I omitted to state in my evidence, that there was a little acid in a bottle which was spilt on the table.

ARTHUR ELLIOTT (Police-sergeant, G 13). I was with Brannan and other officers on this morning—I saw James Campbell in the street—I put my hand in his trousers' pocket, and there found this paper packet (produced), containing four counterfeit half-crowns; nothing else—I was about thirty yards from Windmill-street when I seized him—at that time a woman ran away from Great Windmill-street in the direction of the prisoner's house—I could not see the house where she went—she ran in the direction of No. 22—I immediately called out, "I have got him, Mr. Brannan; come on, let us go to the bouse"—Brannan and I went immediately down to the house, leaving James in the custody of the other officers—as I got to Little Windmill-street, I saw the prisoner John coming out of the house, and the young woman on the opposite side—John was running out with another man, who got away—I attempted to seize him and he struck at me—I then caught him by the neck—he had no coat on—I called out, "Look out, Mr. Brannan, be has a bag in his hand"—I had seen the prisoners going in and ont of that house for about four months previously—I had been watching them—there are two rooms in the house, one over the other, not more than one bed-room—there was one bedstead and two beds; one on the bedstead, and one on the floor, both in the same room.

JAMES BRANNAN , Junior (Police-sergeant, G 21). On 19th July, I assisted to search the house, 22 Windmill-street—I found this galvanio battery wire in the cupboard in the lower room—I showed it to the prisoners, and John said that it was left there by a man who would call for it in a day or two—there was this other piece of wire also.

BENJAMIN BRYANT (Police-inspector), I was with Brannan and the other officers on this morning—I took charge of James Campbell after he bad been taken in custody by Elliott—I had directions from Brannan to search him, and bring him down to the house—I searched him on the spot, and brought him down to the house—I found nothing on him—John Campell was then in custody at the house—when we brought in James, John said that that was his brother; that he had only been gone out a few minutes, and knew nothing about it—I searohed the lower room, and in a drawer there I found a rent-book, upon which John Campbell said, "That quite right; we have lived here many years"—the two were standing side by side then—there are entries in the book of payments of rent for some years—he said, "You will see by the bed upstairs that we both sleep together"—there was a bed upstairs where two apparently did sleep; and the father was in another bed when we went there—I believe he is bed-ridden; a cripple.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . Amongst the money taken from the prisoner John, here are six half-crowns of George III. of 1818, counterfeits, and from the same mould; three counterfeit half-crowns of Victoria, 1846, from one mould; fifteen counterfeit florins, all from one mould; and three counterfeit shillings,

two of which are from one mould—of the four half-crowns taken from James, there are two of 1818, from one mould, and from the same mould as the six found on the other prisoner; and two of Victoria, of 1846, from the same mould as the three found on John.

GUILTY .—The prisoners received good characters; but Brannan stated that he believed them to be makers of counterfeit coin, and that they were the associates of utterers

Confined Two Years Each

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-725
VerdictNot Guilty > no evidence

Related Material

725. HENRY OTT (30) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.

MR. CLERK withdrew from the Prosecution


19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-726
VerdictGuilty > unknown

Related Material

726. JOHN WILLIAMS (39), was indicted for a like offence.

MESSRS. CLERK and UNDERWOOD conducted the Prosecution

REBECCA STEWART . My husband, Charles James Stewart, kept a beer-shop in Elder-road, Lower Norwood he is dead—I was there on 10th August—on that evening the prisoner came there with another man who remained outside—I saw them come up to the house—I served the prisoner with some beer, which came to 2d.—he gave me a shilling—I put it in my teeth—it was soft—it bent easily—I told him it was bad, and he gave me a good shilling—I gave him a sixpence and fourpence in change—I laid the bad shilling on the bar, and he took it up—when he came in he had not his jacket on, but across his shoulder—I watched him as he went from my door—he went down a turning to put it on, towards Mr. Gidner's, the baker's—I did not see anything of the otherman—this (produced) is not the shilling I bent—it was not so much bent as this.

COURT. Q. Are you perfectly sure that is not the shilling? A. I feel perfectly sure, because there are no teeth marks—I saw my teeth marks on it before I gave it up.

THOMAS GIDNER . I am a baker at Lower Norwood—on 10th August, at half-past 5 o'clock, I was in my shop—the prisoner came in, and asked for a penny loaf—he put down a shilling on a loaf of bread—the counter was strewn with bread—I said, "You vagabond, this is a bad shilling"—that was in consequence of information I had received—he had a good penny in the other hand—I tried the shilling in the tryer, and found it was bad—I kept him till the policeman came, and then gave him in charge with the bad shilling—this is the shilling—here is the mark, T. G. that I put on it when I gave the prisoner in charge—it was a good looking-shilling when it was offered to me—I did not notice that it had been bent—I bent it.

COURT. Q. You say you had information? A. Yes, I met a bricklayer between Mrs. Stewart's house and mine, who said something to me.

JOHN ARTHUR (Policeman, P 69). I received this shilling from Mr. Gidner—I searched the prisoner—he had only a penny on him.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . This shilling is bad.

Prisoner's Defence. It was given to me for a good shilling, and I did not know but what it was good.

GUILTY .**— Confined Twelve Months

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-727
VerdictGuilty > unknown; Guilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment; Imprisonment

Related Material

727. WILLIAM JONES (39), and SARAH KING (23) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin, having other counterfeit coin in their possession.

MESSRS. CLERK and UNDERWOOD conducted the Prosecution

JAMES BORLAND . I am a cheesemonger, of High-street, Camberwell—on Wednesday evening, 7th August, between 5 and 6 o'clock, the male prisoner

came and asked for a pennyworth of cheese, and tendered a counterfeit halfcrown—I told him it was bad—he seemed to doubt it, and I took it back, tried it, and marked it with acid—I came back and told him it was bad, and he said that his master gave it him at Turnham-green, and that he had not any other money—I gave him back the half-crown, and sent my boy oat after him to watch him—my boy soon came back and I then went into the street, and saw both prisoners walking together—when they came to another cheesemonger's shop I saw the female prisoner hand the male prisoner something, and he went into that shop—I then gave information to a constable, and pointed out the prisoners to him—I saw Jones come out of the cheesemonger's and go into a baker's named Taylor—while he was in the cheesemonger's shop the female prisoner was standing close in front of the shop—she walked across the road when he went into the baker's, and when he came out of there he joined her and handed her something—I then went up and took the woman into custody, and Bunting the constable took the man—one constable was in plain clothes, and as we were going along to the station I told him to watch and see if she dropped anything, and she dropped two pieces of coin—they were picked up in my presence by a constable—one was a half-crown, and the other a shilling—the constable was walking behind her—his name is William Pound—he showed them to me—one was the halfcrown which the man had tendered to me in my shop a short time before—as we were going along, the woman took her hand out of her right-hand pocket, and gave me a packet, saying, "I will give you the whole, and will speak the truth"—I handed it to the constable behind—Pound has the halfcrown that the woman dropped and he picked up—I saw the paper examined that the woman gave me.

SUSANNAH TAYLOR . I am the sister of Charles Taylor, a baker, of Beckford-row, Walworth—on Wednesday evening, 7th August, I was at my brother's shop—the male prisoner came in and asked for a half-quartern loaf, and gave me a half-crown—I put it in our detector, bent it, gave it him back, and told him it did not do for me, that it was a bad one—he said his' master gave it him—he then went out—I saw the half-crown at the other court—I believe it to be the one.

THOMAS BUNTING (Policeman, P 240). I was on duty on the evening of 7th August, in Camberwell—Mr. Borland gave me some information which led to my following the two prisoners—they were not together when I saw them—the female was on the right-hand side of the road—I saw Jones go into Mr. Taylor's, the baker's—the woman then crossed the road to the same side that he was on—I saw him come out—he overtook the female prisoner and gave her something—I then went up and took Jones into custody—I told him I wanted him for uttering—he made no reply—I searched him at the station, and found on him a knife, two purses, empty except a sixpence, and a letter.

WILLIAM POUND (Policeman, P 225). I was in plain clothes on 7th August—Mr. Borland pointed out the female prisoner to me—I walked behind her as she was going to the station—on the way she dropped this half-crown and shilling (produced)—I showed the half-crown to Mr. Borland—I did not receive anything from Mr. Taylor—I saw the paper given by the woman to Mr. Borland on the way to the station; it contained some counterfeit money—amongst the money there is a half-crown which is bent—it was shown to Mr. Taylor—at the station the female prisoner said, alluding to Jones, "He gave it to me, and asked me to go to Birmingham with him"—she said, "Did I see you before this morning?"—he said, "No"—she

said, "He said to me I shall turn this all up and go to square work"—square work means honest employment—she said, speaking of the money, "It is no use searching him, he has got no more."

JAMES BORLAND (re-examined). This is the half-crown that I marked with the acid—I see the place where I marked it.

SUSANNAH TAYLOR (re-examined). This is the half-crown I gave back to the man—I made a little hole in it.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . This half-crown with the acid on it is bad—the one tendered to Miss Taylor is also bad—the shilling dropped by the woman is bad—in this packet that the woman gave up, are six counterfeit half-crowns, three of them from the same mould as the half-crown with the acid on it, and three from the same mould as the bent half-crown—there are also three shillings from the same mould as the shilling dropped.

Jones' Defence. I had been at work up at Turnham Green, and had a sovereign of my master. I got it changed, and got in company with this party; I happened to get drunk, and did not know anything at all about it's being bad.

JONES— GUILTY .— Confined Eighteen Months

KING— GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months

19th August 1861
Reference Numbert18610819-728
VerdictGuilty > unknown

Related Material

728. CHARLES SMITH (28), and WILLIAM UPHAM (26) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.

MESSRS. CLERK and UNDERWOOD conducted the Prosecution

WILLIAM THOMAS GRADDICK . I am seven years old, and live with my parents in Belvedere-road, Lambeth—on Sunday, 28th July, I was in the Belvedere-road by myself, playing—I saw the prisoner Smith—he said, "Follow me;" and I went with him down the York-road—Upham had given me the jug—I was playing in Vine-street, and he said, "Boy, will you go and get me a quartern of the best gin?"—he gave me the jug and a two-shilling piece—he did not tell me where to go, but pointed to the White Hart—I went there with the jug, got the quartern of gin, gave the two-shilling piece, and got sixpenny worth of halfpence, and Is. in change—when I came out I did not see the man who had given me the jug; I saw Smith—it was then that he came up to me, and told me to follow him—I followed him to the York-road to the corner of a street, and he said, "You had better give me the jug and the change"—I did so, he gave me a penny, and walked on—I did not see the jug any more after I had given it to Smith; another boy had it—I did not see the other boy with it; I saw it at the police-court on a Wednesday.

Cross-examined by MR. LLOYD. Q. I suppose you had never seen either of these men before? A. No; I was examined at the police-court—the policeman Mansfield did not ask me to point them out—I did point them out to the policeman at the court; not before the policeman came to me to go to the police-court—no one was with him—he came to my school, and told me he wanted me to go to the police-court—when I got there I saw the two prisoners—they were alone—I was asked if they were the men, and pointed them out.

COURT. Q. Have you any doubt that Upham is the man who told you to get the gin, and that Smith is the one to whom you gave the gin? A. I gave Smith the gin, and Upham is the one that gave me the jug.

JOHN GARTON . I am eight years old, and live with my father and mother at 9, Fraser-street, Lambeth—on 28th July I was at the corner of College-street, and saw the prisoner Smith—I did not know him before—he said,

"Go and get me half a pint of six ale"—he gave me 1s. and a mug, and told me to go to the White Hart—I went there, got the beer, and gave the 1s. to the landlord—the landlord looked at the 1s., and then poured the beer back from the jug—I am quite sure it was Smith who gave the 1s. to me.

Cross-examined. Q. When did you first see the man after he had given you the jug? A. In the beer-shop—I was taken by a policeman—I cannot say how many people were there; there were three or four.

CHARLES SMITH . I am fourteen years old, and live with my parents at Fraser-street, Lambeth—on Sunday evening, 28th July, I was near the White Hart and saw the prisoner Smith—he called to me and said, "Mate, here"—I went to him and he said, "Fetch one of your mates;" I called Garton and told him the gentleman there wanted him—I saw Upham standing on the opposite side of the street; Smith was on this side, about a hundred yards from the White Hart, which is across in another street—I saw Smith give Garton a 1s. and a jug from underneath his coat—he said to Garton, pointing to the White Hart, "Go and fetch half a pint of six ale"—after he had gone I saw Smith go up a little street—Upham came past me and stood at the corner of a post, and when the little boy was coming out he walked along quick—I waited till Garton came out; Upbam could see the door of the White Hart from where he was standing—when Garton came out, Upham walked down to the Suspension Bridge—Mr. Douglas came out of the White Hart with Garton—about five minutes after he came out, I saw Smith and Upham together, and pointed them out to Douglas—I went with him into the Kings Head, and they were taken into custody there.

Cross-examined. Q. When Smith came up to you, did he ask you to go into the public house? A. No, Garton and I were together then, and he called me and told me to call Garton—while Garton went into the public-house I was waiting for him.

THOMAS LEMAN HEPPEL . I am the landlord of the White Hart, College-street, Lambeth—on 28th July, Graddick came in with a small mug for a quartern of the best gin—he gave me a two-shilling piece, and I gave him 1s. 7d. change, and the gin in the small yellow mug—immediately after he left I found it was a counterfeit florin; I marked it, and subsequently gave it to the policeman—about ten minutes afterwards Garton came in with the same mug and called for half a pint of ale, for which he tendered a shilling; I drew the ale, but before I gave it him I examined the shilling and found it to be bad—I walked round the bar and questioned him where he got it—I was not able to leave, and I asked Mr. Douglas, a gentleman in front of the bar, to go with the boy and ascertain who had sent him—I afterwards handed that shilling also to the police constable; these (produced) are the two coins.

Cross-examined. Q. You say the boy began crying? A. Yes—I threatened to give him in charge—he was very much frightened—I did not go out with Douglas—I was alone and could not go out—I let the first boy go out without saying anything at all—I had not ascertained it.

THOMAS DOUGLAS . I am an engine driver—I was at Mr. Heppel's house, the White Hart, on Sunday, 28th July—I saw him serve the two boys that came in with the jug—it appeared to me to be the same jug—I went out with the second boy—when I got out I saw the boy Smith, and he pointed out both the prisoners, Upham first, and then Smith—Upham was standing at the corner of College-street, and Smith at the corner of Belvedere-eresent—one was about sixty and the other eighty yards from the White Hart—

they walked together when they met—I followed them as far as the King's Head, at the corner of Tennyson-street—I then met a constable and spoke to him—they went into the King's Head, where they were taken in custody—I took the jug from Garton and gave it to the constable.

Cross-examined. Q. How far is the King's Head from this public-house! A. I should think about a hundred yards.

JOHN MANSFIELD (Policeman, L 70). On Sunday, 28th July, I was spoken to by the last witness, with whom were Garton and the boy Smith—I went with them into the King's Head public-house—Garton said, in the presence of the prisoners, "Those are the two men"—he said that the I prisoner Smith gave him a shilling—Smith did not say anything to that—the last witness went on to Mr. Heppel's, the White Hart—I took the prisoners into custody—on Upham I found a sixpence, three pence and a half-penny; and on Smith I found a shilling, two sixpences, three pence in copper, and a cup which is not here—the mug is here (produced)—Upham gave no account of himself—Smith gave me an address, and he afterwards gave me another—this money (produced) I got from Mr. Heppel.

Cross-examined. Q. You have not brought the cup here? A. No—I found it on Smith, in his coat pocket, in the station-house—I took both the prisoners in custody in the public-house—one followed me behind till I got to another constable—I told that one to follow me and he did so; he did not try to get away—he afterwards gave a correct address.

MR. CLERK. Q. You were the only constable at the King's Head? A. Yes; Douglas was there and walked down behind me, alongside of Smith.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . This florin and shilling are bad.

GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months Each


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