Old Bailey Proceedings.
10th June 1861
Reference Number: t18610610

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Old Bailey Proceedings front matter.
10th June 1861
Reference Numberf18610610

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Sessions Paper.








Short-hand Writers to the Court,








Law Publishers to the Queen's Most Excellent Majesty.




On the Queen's Commission of



The City of London,





Held on Monday, June 10th, 1861, and following days.

BEFORE, the Right Hon. WILLIAM CUBITT , Esq. M.P. Lord Mayor of the City of London; Sir George Bramwell, Knt. one of the Barons of Her Majesty's Court of Exchequer; Sir Charles Crompton, Knt. one of the Justices of Her Majesty's Court of Queen's Bench; Sir John Musgrove, Bart.; Thomas Challis, Esq.; David Salomons, Esq. M.P. Aldermen of the said City; Russell Gurney, Esq. Q.C. Recorder of the said City; Sir Henry Muggeridge,. Knt; Benjamin Samuel Phillips, Esq.; John Joseph Mechi, Esq.; Edward Conder, Esq.; and Thomas Dakin, Esq., Aldermen of the said City; Thomas Chambers, Esq. Q.C. common Serjeant of the said City; and Robert Malcolm Kerr, Esq. Judge of Sheriffs' Court; Her Majesty's Justices of Oyer and Terminer and General Gaol Delivery of Newgate, holden for the said City, and Judges of the Central Criminal Court.









A star (*) denotes that prisoners have been previously in custody—two stars (**) that they have been more than once in custody—an obelisk (†) that they are known to be the associates of bad characters—the figures after the name in the indictment denote the prisoner's age.


OLD COURT.—Monday, June 10th, 1861.

PRESENT—The Right Hon. the LORD MAYOR, M.P.; Mr. Ald. SALOMONS, M.P.; Mr. RECORDER; and Mr. Ald. PHILLIPS.

Before Mr. Recorder.

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-456
VerdictGuilty > lesser offence

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456. THOMAS PEAT (13), and ALFRED TILLEY (15), were indicted for feloniously throwing a piece of wood on the London and South Western Railway, with intent to endanger the safety of persons travelling thereon. Second Count, with intent to obstruct the engine.

MR. COOPER conducted the Prosecution.

JOSEPH WODEN . On Friday afternoon, 3d May, I was on the canal near Staines-moor, Ballasting for mud—James Wicks was with me—whilst there I saw the two prisoners upon the London and South Western Railway—they kept dodging about round the railway-bridge—I thought they were up to no good, and watched them, and as a train was approaching just before 3 o'clock I saw one of them throw a piece of wood on to the rail—this is the piece produced)—I believe it was the biggest one (Tilley) who threw it—I could not get out of my Boat at the moment, or I should have tried to go and take the wood off the rail—the train came on at a great pace—I beckoned to the driver, but he had no time to stop the train, or do anything; he could not have done it—I got out of my Boat, and went after them, and the Boys ran away—I knew it was no use running after them, so t watched them—they went to the next bridge, further down the line, and I went after them again—as soon as they saw me coming they got up, and ran away again—I saw a young man coming along with a horse and cart, and he caught Tilley—I went with him to the station—I am sure the prisoners are the two Boys—I was about a hundred yards from them at the time this was done—I had seen them for about seven or eight minutes before they did it, or it might have been ten.

Cross-examined by MR. LLOYD (for Tilley). Q. Were they a hundred yards off when you first saw them? A. Yes—I called the attention of the person who was with me to the Boys, and he watched them as well as me—they kept trying to get behind the corner of the Bridge, and were looking round it, first one and then the other—I picked up two of the pieces of wood, and the policeman found the two smaller pieces afterwards—they threw it on the

line whole, and the train split it up—I believe it was Tilley who threw it—I could tell by his size—I saw him come with it in his hands right against the rail, and I believe he would have put it on then if he had not thought we saw him—as soon as I saw him put it on the rails I got up, but the train was over it then; it was all done so suddenly—he dodged back, and threw it from behind the Bridge—I ran after them as soon as I could—Wicks, who was with me, did not run after them—when we took Tilley he said it was the little one that did it—I do not know that he said he could not prevent him from doing it—I had never seen him Before.

JAMES WICKS . On the afternoon of 3d May I was with Wooden—I saw Tilley standing behind the cattle Bridge on Staines-moor—when the train came up I saw him step out and stand by the side of the metals, and when the train came within about two hundred yards of him he stepped back behind the Bridge, and I saw the piece of wood now produced thrown across the metals—Wooden got out of the Boat, and went after him—I saw both the prisoners, but I did not see the little one till they ran away from behind the Bridge—I could not speak to him—I am certain they are the Boys I saw run from the Bridge, but I did not see Peat till they ran away.

Cross-examined. Q. Did you go after them? A. No; I remained in the Boat till Wooden went and caught them—they ran away together—they were not running very fast—I did not see which one it was that threw the wood—it came from behind the Bridge where they stood.

JOHN ALLEN (Police-sergeant, T 38). On 3d May, about half-past 4 o'clock, I was on duty at Staines police-station—Tilley was brought there by Wooden—I searched him, and found upon him this knife—it has a saw to it—I have compared it with the stick from which this wood was cut, and in my opinion it was cut by that saw—it forms a paling running along the side of the railway—it appeared to be fresh done—it was quite close to the Bridge.

NATHANIEL DEAN . I was driver of the Nile engine on this day, by the 2.45 train—as we came near Staines I saw a man in a Ballast punt Beckon to me—I looked and saw a piece of wood across the line, and I saw a Boy going up the Bank—a thing like this placed across the rail is dangerous—it was caught by the life-guard, and cut in two—the life-guard travels within about an inch or an inch and a quarter of the line, in front of the wheel—it is put there for the purpose of catching anything that may Be placed on the metals.

Cross-examined. Q. Does not that always prevent an accident from a thing of this kind? A. Not always—a piece of wood like this might cause an accident—I have known a piece, not larger, throw the engine off the line—I was travelling at great speed at the time; forty miles an hour—I shut off the steam as soon as I saw the wood.

The prisoners received good characters.

GUILTY on the Second Count—Recommended to Mercy. — Confined Fourteen Days.

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-457
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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457. THOMAS JENKINS (20) , Burglariously breaking and entering the dwelling-house of Henry Buckland, and stealing therein 30 lbs. of horse hair, value 1l. 2s., his property; to which he

PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months .

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-458
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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458. JOHN BURKE (32) , Assaulting Charles Graham, a relieving officer, in the execution of his duty, and occasioning him actual bodily harm.

PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Six Months .

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-459
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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459. WILLIAM JOHN IROMAN (26) , Stealing a watch and chain, value 13l., the property of John Ford Hannaford, his master; to which he

PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Nine Months .

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-460
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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460. ALFRED CULMER (25) , Unlawfully taking away one Emily Blackshaw, aged 15, out of the possession of her father, and against his will.

MR. LEWIS conducted the Prosecution.

EMILY BLACKSHAW . I am now residing with my father at 1, Brunswick-street, Hackney-road—I was fifteen years old on 27th of last March—I remember going to the Garrick Theatre last Whitsun Tuesday by permission of my father—I left the Garrick Theatre about half-past 11—I saw the prisoner, about twenty minutes to 12—I was then with a young man who had taken me to the theatre—I asked him whether he would excuse me for a few minutes—the prisoner was not capable of hearing what I said to my friend—I then left him, went to the prisoner, and went home with him to 7, Hatfield-street—he is a married man, and has two children—I remained with the prisoner a fortnight—during that time we were living as man and wife—his wife was not living at Hatfield-street then—after that time I went home to my parents—my father met with me, and took me home—I afterwards went back to the prisoner, and my father took me home again—I had not met the prisoner by arrangement—he had asked me to live with him before I went with him that night.

Cross-examined by MR. DICKIE. Q. When you met the prisoner on this night, who was with you? A. Mr. John Holding—it is twelve months ago since I first saw the prisoner—I met him at the King John, Mansfield street, at a concert—I was up stairs—there was no dance afterwards—my sister went with me to the King John—I. am not in the habit of going to concerts often; nor dances occasionally, only concerts—I used to go to a place in Banner-street—Holding was paying his addresses to me—I have also kept company with George Cameron and Mr. Culmer, that is all—I don't know that the King John is kept by Mr. Mace, a fighting man—my mother did not know that I went to all these places—I am generally home early, about half-past 10—I was not always home at that time—I have always come out before the concert was over—my mother knows how many sweethearts I have had—on my oath the same familiarities have not taken place between me and Cameron as between me and the prisoner—he never took any liberties with me—I have been to two or three concerts with him, but he has never taken any liberty with me—I have been to the King John, and to Banner-street with him once—my parents sanctioned my going to these places with Mr. Cameron, not with Mr. Culmer—I know Mr. Samuel Booth—he was a sweetheart of mine—when I went away with the prisoner on the first occasion my father took me home—my mother did not afterwards send me back to the prisoner—nobody sent me back; I am sure of that—my parents were not aware that I went to live with the prisoner—I went to take the key back, that was the reason I went back—my mother knew I was going to take the key back—I have not had any more sweethearts, not to go out with.

Q. Do you remember meeting the prisoner four months ago in a coffee-shop, when there was some attempt to rob you, or something of that sort, when you were robbed of 6s. 6d.? A. It is more than that; it is about eleven months ago—I met him about 11 o'clock on a Saturday night in Hoxton—I don't know what kind of coffee-shop it was—I was never in it but once—it was not a sweetheart of mine who robbed me; it was some strange gentleman—I first met the prisoner twelve months ago up at the King John, in the concert-room—I did not notice the time; it was in the

evening—it was not 1 in the morning—it was not half-past 11; it was about 9—I was sitting there with my sister—that was the first concert I ever went to—I did not tell him on that occasion, after leaving the concert-room, that my parents had turned me out of doors—I never told him I was going to commitsuicide,

MR. LEWIS. Q. You say your mother knew that you were going to take back the key; did she know you were going to live with him as his wife? A. No.

AUGUSTUS FRANCIS BLACKSHAW . I am a carpenter at Hackney—the last witness is my daughter; she was fifteen on the 27th of last March—up to the time of this occurrence she had lived with me and her mother—the prisoner was a visitor at my house—he used to bring his wife to my house—Both of them were visitors frequently—I gave my daughter permission to go with Mr. Holding to the Garrick Theatre—I never consented that she should go away with the prisoner—I have always forbidden it, and he knows it—I sat up for my daughter on the night she went with Mr. Holding till after 1 o'clock—I know a public-house which the prisoner was in the habit of frequenting—I used to frequent it myself at one time till the landlord left—I went to that public-house from day to day to find him, from the Wednesday up to the Saturday—I saw him every night, and he denied all knowledge of the child until I threatened to put it into the hands of the police; then he came round to my house on the Sunday afternoon, and told me that he had seen the party where she was residing, and had made arrangements for me to see her at half-past 8 on Sunday night, opposite St. Luke's Church; I went and saw her and took her home to my house, but she went off again when I left' the room a short time, and J never saw her again till the following Sunday, at a lodging—first I saw Culmer at the King John, and gave him in charge—the second time I found her she was at the prisoner's lodging in Hat field-street.

Cross-examined. Q. Were you aware she was in the habit of going to concert-rooms? A. Yes, perfectly aware: she had always some one with her, her sister—Mr. Cameron has been with her—he is a very respectable young man—I have never denied the prisoner to his wife when she has called at my house, nor do I know that my wife has done so—I have several times forbidden my child's going to the King John, in consequence of Culmer, because I thought the intimacy was getting too great, more than I liked, which he well knew—I do not know who keeps the King John now.

JOHN HOLDING . I am a printer, at 21, Ormsby-street, Kingsland-road—I took the little girl to the Garrick Theatre on Whit-Tuesday-night—I never saw her after I left the public-house—I was going to take her home, and I suddenly missed her.

Cross-examined. Q. How long have you known this girl? A. I should say six months—I can't tell where I met her first—I have only known her by seeing her—I knew her a long time before I actually knew her name—I have kept company with her since the Saturday but one before Whit-Tuesday—I was in the habit of meeting her at a concert-room—I had familiarities with her—I have had connexion with her.

AGNES DOWNES . I am the wife of Daniel Downes, a whip-maker, residing at 7, Hatfield-street—I recollect the prisoner and the little girl lodging at that place—they lived as man and wife—I can't say how long they lived there; about two or three weeks I dare say.

PETER DEVITT (Policeman, G 2). I took the prisoner in custody, and told him the charge—he took a half-crown from his pocket, threw it down

on the Bagatelle-table in the public-house, and said, "I won't lose that much by it; the law can't touch me."

Cross-examined. Q. Did you know this girl? A. I did not previously.

Witnesses for the Defence.

ELLEN WILKINS . I live at 14, Whitmore-road, Hoxton—I know the prisoner and the young girl—she was away from home about three mouths ago, for six weeks, with me—her father and mother both allowed her to go with me—she was at the mourning-flower making during that time—she kept very late hours, and that was the reason she left me—she came home one morning at 4 o'clock—her parents did not know of her keeping these bad hours.

SUSAN IRWIN . I know the prisoner and the prosecutrix—about six weeks ago I was present when Mrs. Blackshaw denied the prisoner being at her house—I was outside the door with his wife and my husband, and at the slime time I saw the prisoner looking over the top of the house.

GUILTY .— Confined Six Months .

NEW COURT.—Monday, June 10th, 1861.


Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-461
VerdictNot Guilty > no evidence

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461. EDWARD CHATER (52) , Embezzling the sum of 13l. 16s. 6d. the property of Alexander Graham and others, his masters.

MR. GIFFARD, for the prosecution, stated that as the case was fully gone into last Session (Seepage 46) he would offer no evidence against the prisoner.


10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-462
VerdictNot Guilty > no evidence

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462. EDWARD CHATER was again indicted for embezzling the sums of 24l. 7s. 6d., 27l. 14s. 6d., and 83l. 16s. 5d., the property of his said masters.

MR. GIFFARD offered no evidence.


10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-463
VerdictNot Guilty > no evidence

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463. EDWARD CHATER was again indicted for embezzling the sums of 110l. 7s. 4d., and 137l., and 150l. 19s. 6d., the property of his said. masters.

MR. GIFFARD offered no evidence.


10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-464
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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464. THOMAS RATTREE (33) , Feloniously forging and uttering an order for the delivery of 12 lbs. of wire, with intent to defraud, having been before convicted; to which he


10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-465
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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465. THOMAS RATTREE was again indicted for feloniously forging and uttering an order for the delivery of 12 dozen rings and 12 lbs. of wax, with intent to defraud, having been before convicted; to which he

PLEADED GUILTY .— Four Tears' Penal Servitude .

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-466
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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466. EDWARD MANNING (17) , Stealing 2 pictures and frames, and 1 coat, value 7l. the property of William Dacie, his master; to which he

PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Three Months .

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-467
VerdictsGuilty > pleaded guilty; Guilty > pleaded guilty; Guilty > pleaded guilty
SentencesImprisonment; Imprisonment; Imprisonment

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467. EDWARD SALES (39), RICHARD SCOTT (37) , Stealing half a hundred weight of tares, rye, oats, and wheat, and 2 sacks, the property of Henry Scudder, their master, and BENJAMIN GREEN (38) , Feloniously receiving the same; to which

SALES— PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Nine Months .

SCOTT— PLEADED GUILTY .*— Confined Twelve Months .

GREEN— PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months .

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-468
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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468. WILLIAM MORRISS (34) , Feloniously forging and uttering an order for the delivery of 1 piece of alpaca, with intent to defraud; to which he

PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Three Months .

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-469
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty; Guilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude; Imprisonment > penal servitude

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469. JOHN WILLIAMS (29), and WILLIAM BURKE (23) , Burglariously breaking and entering the dwelling-house of George Louis August Ferman, and stealing 1 teapot, 1 chatelaine, 2 lockets, and other articles, value 21l. his property, both having been before convicted; to which

WILLIAMS— PLEADED GUILTY .**†— Seven Years' Penal Servitude .

BURKE— PLEADED GUILTY .** †— Six Years' Penal Servitude .

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-470
VerdictGuilty > unknown; Not Guilty > unknown; Guilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment; Imprisonment

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470. JAMES COOK (53), JAMES WRIGHT (32), and RICHARD HUGHES (26) , Stealing 157 lbs. of hay, the property of John West, the master of Hughes; Second Count, Stealing, on 8th March, 56 lbs. of hay, the property of the said John West.

MR. SHARPE conducted the Prosecution.

WILLIAM RAVENING (Police-sergeant, T 7). I had a communication with the prosecutor, and in consequence of information he gave me I went on Wednesday, 8th May, about a mile and a half Below the Wagon and Horses, on the Uxbridge-road, in the parish of Hayes—I saw Hughes and Cook come along with a wagon loaded with hay—Cook was riding on the hind part of the load, and Hughes was driving the horses—I followed them to the Waggon and Horses—they pulled up nearly opposite the stable door, within about a yard or so—Cook then got off the load—Hughes and Cook then walked to Wright, the ostler, who was then in the road, about eight or nine paces off—they stood close by him, apparently in conversation, for two or three minutes—they then left him minding a horse and chaise, and they came back to the load of hay—Cook got up on the top—Hughes laid hold of the horse's head and put it a little towards the stable, in such a way that; the end of the load was close to the stable-door—Cook then put down one of the eight trusses that were on the load Behind, and Hughes took it into the stable—I was from fifteen to twenty yards off—Hughes then came out, laid hold of the horse's head, and drew it on three or four paces, and put it before the trough—I then came up—Cool had got off the load—I asked them why they left that truss of hay which they took into the stable—they both said that they had started with a load and had got a load then—I said, "You have left a truss in the stable, and you have started with more than a load, for there were eight trusses Behind, and now there are only seven"—they both said then that they had not taken any into the stable—I told Hughes that Cook had put it down, and that he had taken it in—he said that he had not—I then went into the stable, and found a truss of clover hay under the manger—it weighed fifty-six pounds—I brought it out and said, "I believe this to be the truss that you left"—they both said they knew nothing about it, and had left none—I told them I should take them into custody for stealing that truss of hay—I took them to the station—I then called Wright and asked him whether he knew what they had left it for—he said that he did not, in the presence of the two other prisoners—I asked the landlord if he knew what they left it for, and he said that he did not know; that the stables were in the occupation of the ostler, who had the full charge of them—I then took Cook and Hughes to the station, and then came back for Wright—I told him that I was come back to take him in custody for receiving two trusses of clover hay, yesterday evening, knowing it to be stolen, and to be careful what he said, as it was very likely I should have to

make use of the words against him again—he said that he had had two, and they were in the stable—I said, "Who was that left By?"—he said, "The same parties that left the one to-night"—this was not in the presence of the other prisoners—they were locked up—Paine was with me when I took Wright—he came up just when I was bringing the first truss of hay out of the stable—this (produced) is a sample of the trusses of 8th May—these other two are samples of the other two trusses that I found in the stable.

Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. Q. What time was it when you went there on 8th May? A. About 7 o'clock in the evening—the road I went on would be the road by which the cart came—the cart passed me—I was then in the field, in private clothes—Paine was not with me then—I did not know anything about his coming—when the cart passed me I followed it—I cannot say how many trusses there were altogether on the cart, or that there was a full load—I did not take steps afterwards to ascertain whether there was a full load—I only counted the eight trusses Behind—Cook sat upon them but did not cover them in the least—Mr. West took possession of the load of hay—he is the proprietor—with the assistance of Paine, the cart was taken up to Mr. West's, with the load of hay, and the prisoners also, and then I took the prisoners from West's to the station—I went back again to the public-house about 10 o'clock—it is a place very much frequented—nearly all the carts stop there and Bait their horses.

Cross-examined by MR. COOPER. Q. Do not you know that it is a custom for many of them to leave hay to Bait their horses? A. No; I saw the truss taken out—I saw it as soon as I went in—this stable is right on the pu Blic road—there is no yard before it.

COURT. Q. Was there any other cart or wagon at the time you saw this happen? A. There was nothing there but this horse and chaise, which the ostler was minding.

MR. SHARPE. Q. Was there any hay in that? A. No.

CHARLES PAINE (Policeman, T 252). On the evening of 8th May, I went to the Waggon and Horses, on the Uxbridge-road—when I first came up I saw Sergeant Ravening fetching a truss of hay out of the stable he told Cook and Hughes that that was the truss which they had put in, and which he charged them with stealing—he took them into custody—he went up and spoke to Wright—I did not hear what he said—I saw the other two trusses from off two or three cribs in the stable.

JOHN WEST . I am a corn-dealer and Baker, and live at South all—early in April, I bought a rick of clover-hay at a sale in Hayes parish—I employed the prisoner Hughes to Bind it—I did not employ Cook to drive it; he was in the service of Mr. Ford, my neighbour, and drove his cart—he was so employed for three or four days—in consequence of certain feelings in my mind, I gave information to Ravening—on Wednesday, the middle of the day, I directed him to watch—I saw him again at about half past 7 o'clock—he had Cook and Hughes with him then—Wright was not charged till late at night—some trusses of clover hay were brought with them at this time—the sergeant had charge of one, and there was a load on the cart also—the two other trusses were not brought till late at night—I did not count the load, but it was sent to one of my customers, and he found it all right—I looked and found that it was clover hay—the single truss corresponded with the bulk in the cart—it also corresponds precisely with the hay which. I bought early in April, in Hayes parish—About 10 o'clock in the evening I saw Wright, and desired him Be taken to the station—I then saw two more

trusses brought to the station—they corresponded with the load in the carf, and with the single one—I will undertake to swear that it was part of the hay that I bought in Hayes parish.

Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. Q. Do you mean to say that there is a other hay like that? A. Not in our parish or the next—my parish is, South all in the parish of Norwood—it is rather a large parish—there is plenty of clover grown about there besides in Hayes; but I believe this is the Best—on 6th May, I desired my hay-Binder to bring me a sample of it—I swear to the sample being the same—there is no particular mark upon it; it is only so far as my judgment goes—I do swear positively to it—I have not got the whole truss here—this is the sample that Hughes brought me—I measured this, and it fitted entirely where it was cut out—that is all I have here from the bulk—Morton's property was sold by the assignees; he is dead—the Business is now in the hands of a son-in-law; a Mr. Brewer, of Nothing-hill, is the present owner of the farm—I bought the stack for thirty-five loads—that was what there was left—there had been twelve loads cut out of it a month or two previous, and I bought all that was left—Hughes has only worked for me five or six mouths.

Cross-examined by MR. COOPER. Q. You bought only half the rick? A. I bought thirty-five loads, and gave 170l. for it.

COOK— GUILTY Confined Four Months .


HUGHES— GUILTY Confined Nine Months .

OLD COURT.—Tuesday, June 11th, 1861.


Before Mr. Recorder.

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-471
VerdictsGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentencesNo Punishment > sentence respited

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471. CAROLINE WILSON (24) , Stealing 1 gown and 1 shawl, value 4l. of James Scarlett Burton; also, 1 blanket and 1 counterpane, value 15s. of John Mansfield; also, on 24th April, 1 counterpane and 1 towel, value 11s. of Francis Henry Tredle; to all which she

PLEADED GUILTY .— Judgment Respited .

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-472
VerdictGuilty > unknown; Guilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment; Imprisonment

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472. JOHN DONGIN (30), and HENRY SUGDEN (17) , Burglariously breaking and entering the dwelling-house of Her Majesty the Queen, and stealing therein 1 coat and 1 Brush, value 1l. 1s. the property of Frederick Nicholls.

MR. ROWDEN conducted the Prosecution.

FREDERICK NICHOLLS . I am the office-keeper at 6, Craig's-court, Charing. cross, which is the Census Office—on the night of 6th May, about 10 o'clock, I heard a noise—I was going downstairs into my office—I thought I heard a footstep, and immediately went into the hall of No. 6, and there found the prisoner Dongin—there are two houses, 5 and 6—I took him into No. 5, and he tried to prevent my opening the door—I ultimately took him to Scotland-yard, and gave him in charge to the police—I afterwards went back to my office, went to look at the spot where I took the prisoner, and there found a coat which had been removed, about ten yards from my office—I had seen that coat a few hours previously in my office—it is worth about 1l.—this is it (produced) and this is my hat Brush (produced)—I had seen that a few hours before in my office—I did not examine any part of the houses—I was going to do so—I had merely gone into my office to get a light to examine the place downstairs—it was my usual custom to do so between 10

o'clock—I did so this night—I did not find anything out of place—I did not observe the windows—the windows and doors were secure, from what I could see—I slept in the upper part of the house.

Cross-examined by MR. BEST (for Dongin). Q. The place where you saw Dongin was in the hall, was it not? A. Yes; Craig's-court leads from the main road towards Hungerford-market—it is no thoroughfare.

Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON (for Sugden). Q. The coat you found in The passage? A. Yes; the hat Brush was found on Sugden—I was present when it was taken out of his pocket by the policeman—I saw it taken out of his pocket—I have no doubt of that—I do not think I mentioned that Before—I do not think I was asked the question, as my wife was the witness that saw the second man taken—I saw the Brush taken out of his pocket in the entrance hall of No. 5—I saw the policeman put his hand into his coat pocket Behind—it was either behind or at the side—I saw it taken from the back of him—I will not Be positive which pocket it was taken from—I saw it taken from a pocket—I can swear positively it was not taken from the ground.

COURT. Q. Had the house been secured before this? A. The doors had been secured.

ELLEN NICHOLLS . I am the wife of last witness—on the night of 6th May, in consequence of a noise I heard, I went down into the passage of 6, Craig's-court—I saw my husband there; he had taken the prisoner Dongin—my husband asked me to mind the house—I did so—I stood outside the Door with my hand on the handle of the door—I held it until I heard the prisoner Sugden coming down the stairs, and then I pulled the door to—I held it with both hands until I saw the officer come into the yard, and then, he secured the prisoner as he ran off—it was the prisoner Sugden.

Cross-examined by MR. RIBTOK. Q. You did not see him secure the prisoner, did you? A. He caught him as he ran out of the door—I did not watch him all the time—I saw the policeman stop him—I saw him take the man who ran out of the door—I swear I saw him open his arms and catch him as he ran out at the door—there was no other person for him to catch—I did not watch him the whole of the time—I saw him run out of the house—the policeman asked me if that was the man he was to take, and I said, "Yes"—I mean to swear that was the man who ran out of the house—I did not watch the policeman while he caught him, not at the moment he was taking him—I was so frightened that I cannot remember that I did see him take him in his arms—I saw him put out his hand and take him—I cannot say that I saw him put his hand on him—I had no opportunity of seeing his features, but by his height and dress I know he is the same person—I could not swear to his features when he held his head down in a stooping position—I did not see the Brush found—I was upstairs when it was found—the coat was found in the hall—I was at the door when the policeman brought Sugden to the door—I did not go in till the policeman brought him back to the house—I stood outside—I did not lose sight of the policeman—he took him opposite the door—there was no mistake—there was no one else in the court—he was brought into the passage by the policeman—I was upstairs when Mr. Nicholls came back.

MR. ROWDEN. Q. You saw Sugden in the passage first of all? A. I saw the person run out of the door—I was holding the door until he pulled it out of my hand, and the policeman took him—the policeman took the person that ran out at the door—there is no doubt about it—there was no other person in the place.

CHARLES RUFF (Policeman, 854). On the night of 6th May, about 10 o'clock, I was on duty in Craig's-court—I saw Mrs. Nicholls, and heard her crying, "Police!"—I ran to her assistance, and when I got about three yards from the door of No. 5, I saw her holding the door—she let go the door, and as soon as she had done that, the prisoner Sugden ran out—I caught him in my arms and took him to the station—I searched him, and in his coat pocket behind I found this Brush, and I also found this stick and a key (produced) just where I caught Sudgen—Mr. Nicholls was present when I found the Brush—I have tried the key; it opens the door of No. 5, Craig's court—the two houses communicate together.

Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. Where was Sugden searched? A. At The station in Scotland-yard—I searched him—it was there I took the Brush out of his pocket—Mr. Nicholls and the sergeant were present—I searched him in Scotland-yard, in the office where the other prisoner was—I took the Brush from his right-hand pocket Behind—I am quite sure I did not take it off the ground—I am quite sure I seized the man who ran out of the house—I apprehended him about three yards from the door—I never let him go.

Sugden received a good character, and his employer expressed his willingness to take him again.

DONGIN— GUILTY .— Confined Nine Months .

SUGDEN— GUILTY .— Confined Four Months .

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-473
VerdictGuilty > unknown; Guilty > unknown; Guilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment; Imprisonment; Imprisonment

Related Material

473. JOHN TURNER (36), EDWARD TUCKER (28), and JOHN MARTIN (45) , Robbery on George Frederick Christian Houseman, and stealing from his person 1 watch and chain, value 3l., his property.

MR. DICKIE conducted the Prosecution.

GEORGE CHRISTIAN FREDERICK HAUSSERMAN (through an Interpreter). I live at 2, Salmon's-lane, Limehouse—on Tuesday, 21st May, about 6 or 7 o'clock in the evening, I came from my master's and went towards Went worth-street, to go to my tailor's—a little dog ran against my leg, and I kicked is—Turner then came and spoke to me, but I did not understand him, and the other two prisoners came, and one gave me a strike in the eye—Martin came and caught hold of me round by the thighs and trousers pockets, and then the other two got hold of me, and we had a wrestle and fell to the ground—I lay on the top of two of them—Martin fell on the top of me—my lips were bleeding and my eyes were Black—as soon as I got up, I missed my watch and chain, and I ran after Turner and collared him—I had seen my watch about a in use or two Before—I am quite sure the prisoners are the men that struck me.

Cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH (for Martin). Q. Had you been in the Rose and Crown public-house? A. No; I had been in no public-house that evening.

Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON (for Turner and Tucker). Q. When you kicked the dog, was it nearly opposite a public-house? A. Yes—Turner was standing at the door—he could see that the dog was kicked—it was immediately after that that Turner came up to me—I struck him when they all three came on me, not Before—there was a regular row between us—there was a crowd there afterwards when we lay on the ground—we were all four on the ground together—I have seen the prisoners on previous occasions in some German public-house where I used to go—I had seen Tucker Before, but did not know his name—I went afterwards into the public-house with the policeman, and found Tucker there asleep lying on a Bench—the policeman did not then ask me if that was the man, nor did I say it was not—I did say "No," but Tucker then lay on his face on the Bench.

JOHN RAYNARD . I am a pork-Butcher in Floodgate-street, Whitechapel—I was in company with the prosecutor on the evening in question—coming through Salmon's-lane, Brick-lane, opposite the Rose and Crown, three men came out and struck him—he struck one of them back again and he forced him into the road, and fell on the top of him—the prisoners are the three men, I am quite sure—I saw the prosecutor' sugars round his neck—I did not see the watch taken away—I had seen the guard round his neck immediately before the fight—I did not know any of the prisoners Before.

COURT. Q. Did any other person get near to him while these persons were on him? A. No—I and a Butcher were there together, at the Beginning—other persons came round afterwards when he was down—nobody came near enough to have taken anything from him.

WILLIAM KING (Policeman, H 216). On 21st May, about 7 o'clock at night, I was on duty in Wentworth-street—I saw Martin and Tucker strike the prosecutor, and Turner take the watch from him, and when they saw me they ran away—two went into a house—I followed but could not see them—I afterwards took Turner into custody in Osmond-street—he said, "I did not take the watch; I struck him"—I saw the prosecutor on the ground—it was Turner that took the watch—I am quite positive.

Cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH. Q. What Became of the watch? A. He passed it to some one in the mo B.

Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. You say you saw Turner and Martin strike him? A. No; Martin and Tucker—Turner was in the struggle with him—Turner took the watch—I am sure of that; I have always said so.

COURT. Q. Did you know them by sight Before? A. Yes, two; Martin and Turner.

NATHAN NICOLAS (Police-sergeant, H 36). I took Tucker into custody on the night of the robbery—he said he had been asleep at the time—I told him the charge before he said that.

Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. You are not the policeman that went into the public-house where he was? A. No.

WILLIAM RILEY (Policeman, H 53). I took Martin into custody on Wednesday night, about 10 o'clock, 27th May—I told him I wanted him for being concerned with two more in custody for an assault, and robbing a German of his watch—he said, "I heard that I was accused of it, but I am quite innocent of it; I know no more of it than you do yourself"—he said that the German and Turner were fighting, and he only went and separated them, and the German turned and struck him in the mouth.

Cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH. Q. Where was it you took him? A. At the corner of Osmond-street, Brick-lane, the following morning—he said, "I came round for the purpose of seeing you, when I heard that I was accused of it, and you were to take me in custody."

MR. RIBTON to WILLIAM KINO (The witness's deposition being read, stated, "Tucker and Martin struck him; I then saw Tucker take the watch-chain from his neck as he was on the ground and pass it to some one in the crowd.") Q. What you stated, was read over to you before you signed it, was it? A. That was read over, but it is a mistake—it was read to me, and I signed it—Turner was the man who took the chain from his neck—I did not say Tucker before the Magistrate—I did not understand it to be Tucker when it was read over to me—I have not heard since that it has been stated that Tucker was asleep in the public-house all the time this was going on—I mean to swear that—I did not know that he was seen lying asleep on a Bench by one of the constables—I never showed him to the prosecutor—

I have not heard that he was shown to the prosecutor in a public-house, and that the prosecutor stated he was not the man.

MR. RIBTON called the following witnesses for Tucker.

JOHN PRICE . I do not recollect this squabble, but I was near the house at the time—I did not see any of the row—it occurred at from 4 o'clock to 7, I believe, or 8—I did not go outside to look at it—Tucker was in the public-house that day—he went to sleep at 4 o'clock and slept till 8—I am quite sure of that—he never went out at all—he could not have gone out and knocked down the prosecutor without my knowing it.

Cross-examined by MR. DICKIE. Q. What are you? A. A labourer at St. Katharine's Docks—I was acting as potman at the time—I saw Tucker lying till a quarter past 8 asleep; from 4 till 8—I have never been in any trouble myself—there was no other potman acting that day—I was the only potman—I go there occasionally to assist—I have been engaged several times before when they have wanted a potman; about three times—I am not sure that I was ever engaged before that day—I was there about twice Before—I will swear I was there Before; in Mr. Peacock's time, the land-lord before this one—that wag, I dare say, about eighteen months ago, or more than that.

MR. RIBTON. Q. How came you there on this occasion? A. Mr. Grove, the landlord, sent for me to assist, as his potman had left—I am quite positive that Tucker was there the whole time.

COURT. Q. What enables you to fix the time from 4 o'clock to 8? A. He was there at that time, because I never saw him move from the time he lay down—I know it was 8 o'clock when he got up, because I never left the place—I left the place a little after 12 o'clock—he went away about 8 o'clock—I can fix that time because I was in and out, and I never saw him move at that time.

MR. RIBTON. Q. Had he been drinking? A. Yes, a little.

WILLIAM PHIPPS . I am an undertaker—I know Tucker—I know him to be an honest, upright man, since I have worked for my employer, Mr. Shee—I have worked with him two years—I saw this riot—I saw the German there about two minutes after he was down—I did not see Tucker there—I am positive he was not there—he could not have been there without my seeing him—I saw Turner there.

JURY. Q. What time was this? A. Between 4 o'clock and half-past, or from that to 5 and 6o'clock, but I cannot Be positive to the exact time when the row commenced I saw a policeman standing against the saw mills, on duty, talking to the proprietor of the saw mills—I never saw him interfere at all.

COURT. Q. You did not see the fight? A. I saw the German bleeding at the nose, and with his eyes swelled, and I saw a great mo B of people, but I never saw Tucker at all there.

MR. RIBTON. Q. What do you say about the time? A. I think it must have been between 6 and 7 o'clock—I was out at first going off—I have not a watch—I never saw any watch passed.

Turner received a good character.

TURNER— GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months .

TUCKER— GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months .


Martin was further charged with having been before convicted.

THOMAS TOWNSEND (Police-sergeant, H 6). I produce a certificate—Read: "Central Criminal Court, May, 1852; John Martin convicted of stealing a

purse and money of a certain woman unknown, he having been before convicted; Transported for Ten Years")—The prisoner Martin is the person there referred to—I was present—he was not in my custody—I was in the case.

MARTIN—GUILTY.— Confined Eighteen Months .

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-474
VerdictGuilty > with recommendation

Related Material

474. JOHN MILLIGAN (20) , Robbery on Elizabeth Pickard, and stealing from her person I purse and 1l. 17s. in money, the property of Henry Pickard.

MR. SHARPE conducted the Prosecution.

ELIZABETH PICKARD . I am the wife of Henry Pickard, of 75, Devon-shire-street, Lisson-grove—he is a horse-Breaker—about 5 o'clock in the afternoon of 20th May, I was in Great Queen-street, and saw the prisoner there—I asked him to direct me to Gray's Inn-road—I took out my purse and gave him the direction which I had in it—he told me he knew where it was well, he would show me, and as he read the direction he passed a little way to show me—instead of showing me the right direction he took me quite the reverse—he walked with me, I should say, about five minutes, and then snatched my purse from my hand—it must have fallen on the ground—I can't swear that I saw him stoop down, or whether he ran or not; I was in a state of confusion—my purse contained 1l. 17s. in money.

Cross-examined by MR. HOLD BWORTH. Q. Which way were you going? A. To Gray's Inn-road—I "was coming from Lisson-grove, from the west part of the town—I do not remember crossing a street—I had got about half-way down Great Queen-street when I met the prisoner—he was talking to two young men—he had his face towards me—he walked by my side—I was rather in a hurry—I walked quickly with him—I had no more conversation than what he told me—I did not talk to him as I went along—it was near an oil shop where he struck the purse from my hand—I next saw the prisoner at the station-house—I stayed there till the policeman came for me—he took me to the station-house—the prisoner was there before me—the policeman had him in custody, standing with him close beside him—the other witness was there behind me—I was told that the man was in custody—no one else was there at that time but the policeman and the prisoner that I am aware of—I was told that they had got the man in custody that had taken my purse.

MR. SHARPS. Q. Are you sure there was no one else at the station besides the prisoner and policeman? A. Yes—I am quite sure the prisoner is the man who stole my purse, and the one I gave the direction to—I have not the least doubt of it.

JAMES BLAKEMAN . A. I live at 11, Old Compton-street, Soho, and am a printer—on 20th last month, I was passing through Wild-street, between 5 and 6 in the afternoon, and saw the prisoner run past me very swiftly and cross the road—I did not look towards him then—I am quite sure he is the person who ran by me, by the peculiar coloured trousers that he wore, and his appearance generally-after he ran by me, I went up to the prosecutrix; she was, I should think, about twenty or thirty yards from the place where the prisoner ran By—one end of Wild-street runs into Queen-street, and the other into Stanhope-street, Clare-market, which is a continuation of Wild-street—I was about the centre of Wild-street, about forty yards from the corner, when I went up to the prosecutrix—she was standing on the opposite corner of Wild-street to where I was standing, it a Buts on Great Queen-street—I saw a crowd round her and spoke to her—I put myself in communication with the police—I saw the prisoner about twelve minutes after, and pointed him out to the policeman as the man who had

run past me—I remarked his trousers and his general appearance at that time.

Cross-examined. Q. I think you said, when you met the prisoner, you were coming up Wild-street, towards Great Queen-street? A. Yes; I was on the left side of the street coming from Clare-market to the City—the prisoner was on the same side, running from Great Queen-street—he crossed over the street to the right—he was not more than two or three yards from me as he passed me—he passed me in the road very close to me—I was on the pavement—I did not see anybody else running at the same time—I did not hear any hue or cry—I feel suspicious when I see a man running, especially if I see a crowd on the opposite side—there were from seven to eight persons round the prosecutrix at the time, or it might Be more—when I saw the prisoner again, he was at the corner of great queen—street; street, in dray-lane; that is about fifteen yards from the corner of wild-street and queen street; I should think about half a dozen doors—his trousers were a yellowish colour—the prosecutrix identified them afterwards—they were a yellow cloth, I should say, no pattern; plain yellow.; a sort of Buff colour—when I came up to the prisoner the second time, he was looking anxiously towards the crowd at the corner that were standing round the policeman—some of them had followed us—the prosecutrix had left the scene then—I and the policeman were walking together, and we met the prisoner just at the corner of Drury-lane—I cannot say which way he came, but I noticed him again.

JAMES DRAYTON (Policeman, F 29). I was in Great Queen-street, at the corner of Drury-lane, on the afternoon of the 20th of last month—the last witness and the prosecutrix put themselves into communication with me, about five o'clock—the last witness pointed the prisoner out to me—I took him into custody—he was searched and nothing found on him—he was taken to the station-house—the prosecutrix was there—I had referred her there—the prosecutrix said, "That is the man;" and he said, "Ask her who picked up the half-crown."

Cross-examined. Q. You say that the prosecutrix was there when you brought in the prisoner? A. Yes; I had referred her there when she informed me of the robbery—I had hold of the prisoner when I took him in—I did not tell her that I had brought her the man, nor did Blakeman—the prosecutrix was standing in the passage against the door, leading into the charge-room, when I passed in with the man—I heard her say "That is the man"—I did not hear anyone else speak—I believe the last witness came in behind me—I will not swear that he did, because I ran and caught the prisoner after he pointed him out—I will not undertake to swear that the last witness did not go into the station-house before me and the prisoner—before he said to the inspector, "Ask her who picked up the half-crown," she had told me that she had a half-crown loose in her hand when the purse was stolen, and she showed it me; that was at the corner of Great Queen-street, before I saw the prisoner at the station—she showed the half-crown to the inspector at the station, after the prisoner had made that statement—I will not undertake to say that it was not before that statement was made—I did not hear it—I did not hear anything said about money.

COURT. Q. Had anything been said, after you brought the prisoner, about the half-crown, before he said that? A. No; I did not hear anything said—I must have heard it if it had been.


Strongly recommended to mercy by the JURY. The prisoner's employer gave him

a good character, and stated that he would be willing to take him again into his employ.

Confined Two Months .

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-475
VerdictsGuilty > pleaded guilty; Not Guilty > no evidence

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475. GEORGE ERNEST JONAS (17) Unlawfully obtaining 2 books of John Eedle; by false pretences, to which he

PLEADED GUILTYRecommended to mercy — Confined Nine Months.

There was another indictment against the prisoner, for feloniously uttering a forged request, upon which MR. HURST offered no evidence.

NEW COURT.—Tuesday, June 11th, 1861.


Before Mr. Common Serjeant

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-476
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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476. WILLIAM BIRD (18), (a Soldier) was indicted for a like offence; to which he

PLEADED GUILTY Confined Nine Months .

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-477
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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477. CHARLES BAKER (15), was indicted for a like offence; to which he

PLEADED GUILTYJudgment respited.

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-478
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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478. THOMAS JONES (27), was indicted for a like offence; to which he

PLEADED GUILTY Confined Twelve Months .

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-479
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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479. ANN WILLIAMS (45) , Feloniously uttering counterfeit coin.

MESSRS. COOKE and CRAWFORD conducted the Prosecution.

THOMAS JONES (Policeman 165 G). I produce a certificate—Read: "Central Criminal Court, May, 1859. Ann Williams convicted on her own confession of uttering counterfeit coin twice within ten days—Confined Nine Months."—I was present at the trial—the prisoner is the person.

WILLIAM TOBIT . I am assistant to Mr. Milton, a grocer, who keeps a post-office at 10, Mary-le-Bonne-street—in March last, the prisoner came for 4s. worth of stamps—I served her—she gave me a half-crown, sixpence, and a shilling—I told her that the half-crown was Bad—she said that she did not know it—I gave it back to her, and she left the shop without the stamps—I saw the half-crown again that day—White, the constable, showed it to me about five minutes afterwards, when he brought the prisoner back—Mr. Milton sent me to the station, where Sergeant White, I think, marked it—I did not know the date or reign on it—I first saw this mark when the sergeant showed it to me.

EDWARD WHITE (Police-sergeant 16 D). On 2d April I was in Devonshire-square, in plain clothes, and saw the prisoner and a man, about 5 o'clock in the evening, and followed them to Mary-le-Bonne-street—just before they reached the corner of Wimpole-street, the man gave the woman a loaf, and about two minutes afterwards he pulled something from his pocket and Beckoned towards Mr. Chandler's shop—the prisoner went in, and the man went the reverse way—the prisoner came out and went after him, but had not time to join him, as I went up to her—I told her I should like to know her Business at Mr. Milton's shop—she said that it was nothing to me—I then told her that I was a police-sergeant—she had she left hand closed, and

drew it under her shawl—I said, "I must see what you have got in that hand"—she said, "I have nothing there"—I pulled her hand from under her shawl and found in it this half-crown—I took her back to Milton's shop, and he and to bit both said that she had been there for half a crown's worth of postage stamps, as I understood, and that the half-crown was Bad—I asked them if they should know the half-crown again, they said, "Yes"—I showed it to them, and marked it in their presence—they had Bent it when she was in the shop—the prisoner was taken to the Mary-le-Bonne office, and discharged in two or three days—she gave her name, Sophia Cox—2s. 2 1/2 d., in good money was found on her.

Prisoner. The gentleman Belonging to the shop was not in the shop till the other gentleman rang the Bell. Witness. He rang the Bell for Mr. Milton, who was not in the shop, and he said that it was Bad.

COURT to WILLIAM TOBIT. Q. Did you ring the Bell, and did Mr. Milton come down and Bend the half-crown? A. Yes; he then gave it back to me and I gave it to the woman—my master had never seen the half-crown or handled it till the policeman brought the prisoner back.

Q. You have just sworn the very reverse? A. I gave it to her back—and she was out of the shop and gone when the Bell was rung—Mr. Milton came down after she was gone, and I did not see her again till the policeman brought her back—I do not recollect his saying to the policeman that he should know the half-crown again if it was produced, because he had Bent it—I did not hear the prosecutor swear that he had done so just this minute—when the policeman came back, he said to me, "What has the woman been in your shop for?"—I told him—he said, "Did she tender any bad money?—I said, "Yes"—he said, "I will bring her back"—he brought her back, and asked Mr. Milton if he would give her in charge—he said, "Yes;" and told me to go to the station—the prisoner said, "Shall you know the half-crown?"—I said, "Yes; it was Bent by Mr. Milton."

THOMAS HARRISS . I keep the Opera Tavern, Covent-garden—on 22d May, at midnight, the prisoner came for half a quartern of gin, which came to 2 1/2 d.—she tendered half a crown to my wife, who said that it was Bad—I said, "Give it to me"—I Bent it, sent for a constable, and gave the prisoner in charge with the half-crown—she said she got it from a gentleman a few minutes Before.

HENRY QUINTIN (Policeman, 46 F). I took the prisoner on 226. May, and received the half-crown—she had only three-halfpence in coppers upon her.

WILLIAM WEBSTER , I am examiner of coin to Her Majesty's Mint—these two half-crowns are Bad, and from one mould.

Prisoner's Defence. I received the half-crown from a gentleman for going home with him.

GUILTY *— Four Years' Penal Servitude .

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-480
VerdictGuilty > unknown

Related Material

480. CHARLES VINER (20) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.

MESSRS. COOK and CRAWFORD conducted the Prosecution.

JOSIAH LUCY . I am assistant to Mr. Dalton, a stationer, of 28, Cockspur-street—the prisoner came in, on 24th May, for 3s. worth of stamps—I served him—he gave me a florin and a shilling—I suspected him, and took up the money without giving him the stamps—I went towards the door, and met my employer, who came in, and I locked the door—I went out of the side door and called a policeman—when I came back the prisoner said, "Is the money Bad?"—he did not hear me call the policeman.

JOSEPH KENT (Policeman 260). On 24th May, I was on duty at Cha-ring-cross, and saw the prisoner at Mr. Dalton's shop, and took him on

a charge of passing bad money—I received a Bad florin, and a good shilling—he said that he did not know it was Bad, and gave his address, 110, Rupert-street, Oxford-street, but I made inquiry there, and could Bear nothing about him.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . This florin is Bad.

Prisoner's Defence. I have been convicted several times for felonies, but not for bad money. I am as likely to take Bad money as anybody else. A gentleman gave me the florin for carrying some things. GUILTY .*†— Confined Nine Months .

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-481
VerdictGuilty > unknown

Related Material

481. GEORGE PAGE (23) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin, having other counterfeit coin in his possession.

MR. COOKE conducted the Prosecution.

WILLIAM TOBIT . I am assistant to Mr. Milton, a grocer, of Great Mary-le-Bone-street, who keeps a Post-office—on 28th May, about ten minutes to 6 in the evening, a woman came for 3s. worth of stamps—I gave them to her, and she laid down half a crown and sixpence—the prisoner followed her in, and asked for a penny stamp—I found the woman's half-crown to be Bad, and Mr. Moulton, who was in the shop, Bent it—the prisoner then received his stamp, and paid for it with a penny—Mr. Miller told me to fetch a constable, and the woman followed me to Weymouth-street—I said, that as I could not see a constable, I must take her back to the shop—I was not then holding her—the prisoner came up to me and asked if that woman had passed any bad money—I said, "Yes"—he said, "What coin?"—I said, "Half a crown"—he said, "Let me look at it"—I opened my hand, and he snatched it—the sixpence was in my hand at the time, but I never saw it again—I pursued him, calling, "Stop him!"—a gentleman tried to stop him, but the prisoner struck him, and got away—he threw himself down on a grating at the corner of Wimpole-street and dropped a half-crown down—I saw it drop into the sewer—I went up and laid hold of him, and gave him in custody—he said, "I do not care a d----so as the female has got away—I took him back to the shop, and he said that he would split my head if he could get his liberty—I informed a constable of the place where the half-crown was dropped, and he afterwards showed it to me—it was the same—a man named Maynard was present when it fell.

GEORGE MAYNARD . On 28th May, between 6 and 7 in the evening, I was in Wimpole-street, and saw the prisoner in the grasp of to bit—I looked down the grating, got a stick, put some stuff upon it, got the half-crown up, marked it, and gave it to the policeman—this is it (produced).

JAMES SMITH (Policeman, D 262). I took the prisoner, and received this half-crown from Maynard—I searched the prisoner, and found on him three sixpences, a fourpenny Bit, 8d. in copper, and this bad sixpence (produced).

WILLIAM WEBSTER . This money is bad; the sixpence is bad also.

Prisoner's Defence. I took the sixpence in change at the corner of Oxford-street; and Sergeant White said that he did not think I knew it was Bad, as I had such an opportunity of making away with it.

EDWARD WHITE (Police-sergeant). I told the other officer, who was a young one, to pull off the prisoner's coat and waistcoat and un Button his trousers, to see what he had got about him—I said, "Now take his waist-coat off and search that," and he pulled a sixpence and a fourpenny Bit out—I said, "Are they good?"—the constable said, "Yes, I think they are"—I said, "No, this is a bad sixpence"—the prisoner said, "Well, so help me God, Sergeant White, I did not know I had that in my pocket or I could have made away with it.

GUILTY .*— Confined Eighteen Months.

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-482
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

Related Material

482. JANE PALMER (28), was indicted for a like offence; to which she

PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Nine Months .

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-483
VerdictGuilty > with recommendation

Related Material

483. MARIA CLARKE (72), and ELLEN SMITH (22), were indicted for a like offence.

MESSRS. CRAWFORD and ROWDEN conducted the Prosecution.

ALFRED GOUGH . I am shopman to Mr. Orton, an ironmonger, of Queen-street, Hoxton—on the evening of 4th May, about half-past 9, the prisoners came, and Smith bought a small saucepan, which came to 2 1/2 d.—she gave me a shilling—I bit it, and Bent it in the tried, and found it was Bad—I gave it back to her and she gave me a good one—I gave her the change and she left—she said that she had it from the Butcher—I spoke to my master and he followed them.

JOHN TAYLOR . I am shopman to Mr. Tullock, tea-dealer, of 15l. Shoreditch—Smith came there on 4th May, about 10 o'clock at night, and bought some tea and sugar—it came to about 10d., and she tendered a bad shilling—I handed it to Mr. Tullock, who cut a notch in it with the scissors and returned it to her—I told her it was Bad and she gave me a good one—she left and was brought back by a detective about two minutes afterwards, who produced the shilling—I knew it again by the scissors' mark.

PETER DEVITT (Policeman, N 92). On 4th May, about half-past 9 at night, the prisoners were pointed out to me by Mr. Orton, in Pitfield-street, Hoxton—they were speaking together—they walked long Old-street-road, close to Mr. Tullock's—sometimes Clarke was behind and sometimes she got in front, and spoke to Smith and returned again—Smith went to a corn-chandler's and purchased something which she gave to Clarke Smith then went into Mr. Tullock's shop and tendered a piece of money—I was in front of the shop door watching—Clarke was standing outside—some words passed between Taylor and Smith, and when she came to the door I went in and asked Taylor what Smith had given him—he said, "A shilling"—in consequence of what he said I took Smith in custody, and said, "You have got a bad shilling in your hand"—she said, "I have not"—I took hold of her right hand and took this Bad shilling (produced) from it, which Taylor identified.

Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. Where is the money that was found on her? A. That was all good.

MR. CRAWFORD. Q. What do you produce besides the shilling? A. Four sixpences, two fourpenny-pieces, three threepenny-pieces, and 1s. 7 1/2 d. in copper, all good—the female searcher gave it to the sergeant.

ISRAEL WATTS (Policeman, N 184). I was with Devitt when he took Smith—I took Clarke, and said, "I want you for being concerned with that other woman in passing bad coin," pointing to Smith, who was standing by her side—she said, "I do not know the woman; I never saw her in my life, and know nothing at all of her"—I had followed them from Mr. Orton's—Smith said at the station, "This woman has nothing to do with me; I never saw her"—Clarke had got a small new saucepan, some suet, tea, Butter, sugar, pork, flour, a new jug, a pair of scissors, and some Buttons, and tape—I produce a Bad shilling and a Bad sixpence which were given me by Sergeant Heath, also a quantity of duplicates.

RE BECCA ANN DONOVAN . I am the female searcher at the Hoxton police-station—I searched Clarke and found on her three purses, fifteen duplicates, 1s. 6d. in silver, and 2 1/2 d. in copper—I gave them to Sergeant Heath—I searched Smith and found on her all the good money produced—I handed it to the sergeant.

HENRY HEATH (Police-sergeant, N 2). I was on duty at the station when the prisoners were Brought, and received these articles from the last witness, and gave them to Watts.

Cross-examined. Q. When did Mrs. Donovan give you the 1s. 6d. A. On Saturday night; and on Monday morning I gave them to Watts—they had in the mean time been in my Box at the station, not mixed with other money—I had no money but gold there.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . These two shillings and this sixpence are Bad.

GUILTY.—Recommended to mercy by the Jury. — Confined Nine Months each .

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-484
VerdictGuilty > unknown

Related Material

484. GEORGE BENNETT (41) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.

MESSRS. CRAWFORD and ROWDEN conducted the Prosecution.

THOMAS WILLIAM HARK , I am a surgeon, and live at 3, Pierrepointterrace, Islington—on 27th April the prisoner came to my house and asked for a pennyworth of pills—I gave them to him—he gave me a sixpence in payment—I saw at once that it was bad and told him so, and asked him why he came to my place to pass bad money; that I supposed he preferred my goods to any one's—he said, "God for bid that it should be bad"—I said, "It is bad; you know it is bad"—I went round the surgery and closed the door—I asked him where he lived—he said, "In the borough"—I said it was a very long way to come for a pennyworth of pills; and that unless he gave his right address I should send for a police-constable—I called in a policeman and gave him in charge—I marked the sixpence and gave it to the constable.

Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. Are you celebrated for your pills? A. Not that I know of—it was compound rhubarb pills that he asked for—I gave him two for a penny.

JOHN HIGGINS (Policeman, N 64). I took the prisoner on 22d April—Mr. Hark gave me this counterfeit sixpence (produced)—the prisoner gave a name but not an address; he said he had got no home, that he was a harness-maker, and was on tramp—he was taken to Clerkenwell Police-court, remanded one day, and discharged.

JOHN AINGE . I was manager of the Blue Coat Boy, at Norton Folgate, on 10th May last—the prisoner came there about ten minutes past 11 at night—he asked for half-a-pint of porter—I served him, and he placed a shilling on the counter—I said, "Do you know, young man, this is a bad shilling?"—he said that he was not aware of it—he searched his pockets and declared that he had not got another farthing—I detained the bad shilling, and he promised that he would call next day to pay for the half-pint of porter—I watched him across to the Primrose public-house—I went there too, and watched him—I spoke to the Barmaid—the shilling that he had given me I kept in my hand till I saw the policeman, and then gave it to him—I saw the prisoner given into custody at the Bar of the Primrose public-house.

JANE LANDRAGIN . I am Barmaid at the Primrose public-house—the prisoner came in, on 10th May, at about a quarter past 11 o'clock—I served him with a glass of ale and he put down a bad half-crown—I told him it was Bad, and he said, "Dear me! who could have given it to me?"—there were several persons round the Bar—I saw Singe there, he came and spoke to me—I sent for my master, Mr. Metcalfe, and he sent for a constable, and the prisoner was given into custody—I gave the half-crown to my master and he gave it to me, and then I kept it in my hand till I gave it to the policeman—I never lost sight of it.

Cross-examined. Q. How long had your master got it? A. Not a moment; he put it in my hand directly—I gave it him just to look at and he then put it in my hand again.

WILLIAM METCALFE . I keep the Primrose public-house—on the evening of 10th May, the last witness gave me a half-crown—I gave it back to her—it never went out of my hand.

THOMAS RICHARD BUTLER (City-policeman, 619). I was called in on 10th May, and the prisoner was given in charge—Jane Landragin gave me this half-crown (produced), and I received this bad shilling (produced) from Ainge at the same time—I searched the prisoner and found on him one penny—he gave me an address, 3, E Benezer-row, Kennington-lane—I went there and found that no such person lived there, nor ever did.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . These coins are bad.

GUILTY .**— Confined Fifteen Months .

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-485
VerdictGuilty > unknown; Guilty > unknown; Not Guilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment; Imprisonment

Related Material

485. JOHN SMITH (21), JAMES MARTIN (25), and SARAH COLLINS (27), were indicted for a like offence.

MESSRS. CRAWFORD and ROWDEN conducted the Prosecution.

CHARLES BAKER (City-policeman, 95). On the evening of Monday, 13th May, I was in Fore-street, and saw the three prisoners standing talking together about 6 o'clock—suspecting something wrong, I followed them; they went up Redcross-street—Collins went into the Fountain public-house—the male prisoners were close by outside; about thirty yards higher up—after Collins came out they all three went together into Bar Bican—Collins went into a public-house there, the male prisoners stopping about thirty or forty yards higher up from the house—Collins came out, joined the male prisoners, and they went into Aldersgate-street—Smith went into Mr. Pannell's, No. 82, a Butcher's shop—the others were about thirty yards higher up the street on the right-hand side of the way, together—I saw Mr. Pannell, and said something to him—Smith afterwards came out and joined the other two prisoners—in consequence of information I received, I followed them some distance—Collins retired and went back to Mr. Pannells shop—Smith then stood some fifty yards up the street; Martin was opposite Mr. Pannells shop—I then got the assistance of some other constables and took the three into custody—they were taken to the station and searched—on Smith was found two half pounds of Beef steak, done up in paper separately; 2s. 3d. in good money, and a watch and chain—on Martin I found 1s. 11 1/4 d., good money; and on Collins 2s. 9 3/4 d., good money—Collins had this Basket (produced) in which were two eggs, a quarter of a pound of Butter, two mutton chops, two tea-spoons, and two door keys—Collins gave an address—I told them that I was an officer, and that they must consider themselves in custody for passing bad coin, or being concerned—Martin said, "I know nothing of the other two"—the others said nothing—I received these two shillings (produced)—one from Mr. Pannell, and one from Mrs. Pannell—I never lost sight of Martin from the time I first Began to watch them till the time I Began to take them in custody.

Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. Did you know anything of Martin? A. No; I never saw either of them before in my life—I have not made any inquiries about him—I received a letter respecting him—he is supposed to be a stranger in London by that letter—I first saw him at the corner of White cross-street, and Fore-street—he was then speaking to the female only—that was within twenty yards of a public-house—I did not see that the woman had come out of a public-house—Smith just came round the

corner at the moment I saw him—Martin and the woman went on and Smith joined them—they walked quietly on for about seventy yards, on the pavement, talking together, before I saw the woman go into one of the houses—I was on the opposite side of the way; there was only the distance of the road between us—the woman then left them and went into the Fountain—that is not one of the places where the bad money was passed—Martin did not go in—after Collins came out, they went on for about four hundred yards before any Bad money was passed—she crossed the road before they got to the Butcher's where the Bad money was passed.

MR. CRAWFORD. Q. Did Martin give you any address? A. He mentioned a street, but did not give me any number—I was in plain clothes.

HENRY PANNELL . I am in the employ of Mr. Thomas We B B Pannell, Butcher, in Aldersgate-street—on 13th May, Smith came between 6 and 7 o'clock, for half a pound of steak—I served him—the price was 4 1/2 d.—I weighed it and gave it to him—he paid Mrs. Pannell for it—shortly after that Collins came in alone—she asked for a mutton chop—I served her with a piece of mutton the value of which was 5 1/2 d.—I referred her to my mistress for payment.

Collins. Q. When I came in did not I pick the piece of mutton up and ask you what it was, and ask you to weigh it? A. Yes; I did not say that it was 8d. a pound and that I would let you have it for 7d.

MR. ROWDEN. Q. Bid you cut the mutton into two? A. Yes.

ELIZABETH PANNELL . I am the wife of We B B Thomas Pannell, a Butcher, of 82, Aldersgate-street—on Monday evening, 13th May, about half-past 6 o'clock, I was called into the counting-house by the last witness to take some money—Smith paid me a shilling—I did not notice the date of it—it was Bad—I put it in the till where there were only a few sixpences—a little time afterwards I received another shilling from Collins—I put that into the till also, the other had been previously taken out—there was no other money then in that compartment, only a few sixpences—another customer came into the shop while Collins was there, bought some meat to the value of 3s. 6d., and paid me with a shilling and a half-crown, which I put into a different compartment—I gave one of the bad shillings to my husband and he gave it to the detective; the other I gave to the detective myself—I had taken the first shilling out myself—I received information which made me take it out—my husband spoke to me—I did not find out when I took them that either of them was Bad—they were marked in my presence—on looking at them the second time I found they were Bad.

Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. Are you sure there were no other shillings in the drawer? A. Yes; because I had just been upstairs, and during my absence my husband had taken all the money out of the till—I saw the till was empty—when I came down there were only about four sixpences in it—I am quite sure there was not a shilling amongst it—I particularly noticed it being empty, when I came down—there are no corners to the till; it is round.

Smith. Q. Did not you say that you could not positively swear to me? A. Yes; I do not swear to you.

COURT to HENRY PANNELL. Q. Are you sure Smith and Collins were the two persons that came in one after the other? A. Yes; I watched them go to my mother to pay—I am quite sure they are the persons that paid.

Smith. Q. How do you swear to me? A. By your features. I do not know that there is any particular mark upon you—I noticed you

when you were in the shop—I did not notice what money you or Collins gave.

WE B B THOMAS PANNELL . I received a marked shilling from my wife on 13th May—I gave it to Baker—I was in the shop, and saw Smith and Collins pay their money—I was waiting on the person that bought the meat that came to 3s. 6d.

COURT. Q. Was that the only person in the shop between them? A. Yes—this is the shilling that I gave to the detective.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . These two shillings are Bad—one is of 1816 and the other 1826.

Martin's statement before the Magistrate was here read as follows:—"What I have to say is this: the two prisoners are strangers to me; I had no bad money on me, neither did I attempt to pass it; that is all I have to say."

At the request of Mr. RIBTON, the COURT permitted Martin to road a statement which was to the effect that he met Smith, and while going along with him, saw Collins coming out of a public-house; that she made some remark to him and he walked with her to Aldersgate-street, when she left him rather suddenly; that he went into a public-house and had a glass of ale, and upon coming out the uttering counterfeit coin; that he was taken across the road, and saw the other two prisoners in the hands of the police, and upon being taken to the station they were all charged with uttering counterfeit money to Mr. Pannell; that he denied it, but was told that being in company with Collins was quite sufficient; that the policeman at the first examination stated that he was watching them about three-quarters of an hour in Fore-street, and they um taken in custody in Aldersgate-street; and would it take a person that time to go from Fore-street to Aldersgate-street?

Smith's Defence. I know nothing about these two prisoners; I never saw either of them Before. I took the bad shilling at a pawn Broker's; I pawned my coat and waistcoat for is., and the policeman has the ticket to show that I did.

Collins' Defence. I am innocent of what I am charged with. The prosecutor said I gave him a shilling; and at the time I gave him my money a person, who was buying a piece of Beef, was giving some money at the same time; and the woman put it all into her hand, and put it all into the till together. She cannot swear that I gave the shilling.

SMITH— GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months .

COLLINS— GUILTY .— Confined Nine Months .


10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-486
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty; Guilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment; Imprisonment

Related Material

486. GEORGE WILLIAMS (43), and WILLIAM HARPER (27) were indicted for a like offence; to which

WILLIAMS— PLEADED GUILTY .*— Confined Twelve Months .

MESSRS. CRAWFORD and ROWDEN conducted the Prosecution.

SUSAN WILLIAMS . I am the wife of Isaac Williams, the landlord of the Duke of Sussex public-house, Hammersmith—on 17th April, about 11 o'clock, the prisoners and two other men came in—Williams asked for a pot of beer, and gave me a shilling—I put it in the till—there was no other shilling there—I gave him 6d. and 2d. change—Harper then asked for a pot of beer and gave me a shilling which I put with the other—there had been no shilling put in in the mean time—Williams then called for an other pot of beer and a quartern of gin, and paid with coppers—he then called for

another pot of beer and gave me a shilling—there had been no shilling put in the till in the meanwhile—I gave him change—I had, during that time, taken no shilling or given any in exchange—there was nobody in the house—Williams soon after called for another quartern of gin and put a shilling down which I saw was bad—I tried it with my teeth and it was soft—I said, "This is a bad shilling"—he caught it out of my hand and went out of the house—I directly went to the till, looked at the other three shillings, and found them all bad—during the transaction Harper and the others were outside the house sitting on a form which they had asked for—Williams was sitting with them before he ran away—my husband went after him, and I went to the door and told Harper that I had taken one bad shilling of him—he said, "I tossed with Williams; Williams lost the pot of beer, and gave me the shilling to pay"—my husband brought Williams back, and I charged him with being the man who had paid the other bad shillings—he said, "I did not know they were bad"—Williams and Harper offered to pay in good money—Harper paid me two sixpences, and five pence in copper was made up among them—Harper said that I had better put the bad money in the fire—Harper remained at the house—Williams went away and was brought back by a policeman, and both prisoners were given in custody—I kept the three shillings in my hand till I gave them to the sergeant—the policeman showed me another shilling which I suppose was the one that Williams snatched from my hand.

Harper. Q. Was I not at your place from 11 to 4? A. Yes; I did not. say, when Williams was brought back, that if he would make up the money I would not trouble any more about it—as soon as the money was made up Williams pulled two shillings out of his parse and said that that was all he had got—you said that you were a stranger to Williams.

COURT. Q. What became of the other two men? A. They belonged to a fur which was at the back of the house, and had used the house for two or three days, but the prisoners were strangers to me.

THOMAS TAYLOR . I am a coal-heaver, and live at Shepherd's-Bush—on 17th April I was in the Duke of Sussex, and saw the prisoners there—I heard the last witness tell Williams that it was a bad shilling, and he went outside and gave it to Harper—I saw him offer that shilling to Mrs. Williams—he snatched it away from her and went out and gave it to Harper, who took it round the corner and tried to bury it with his feet—he went into the urinal—I watched him—he dropped it on the ground and stamped upon it, to try and stamp it into the ground—when he came out I went and picked it up—it was a bad shilling—I gave it to Mr. Williams, the landlord—I marked it—this (produced) is it.

JOHN BALKWELL . I live with my uncle, at 4, William's-cottage, Latimer-road—I was outside the Duke of Sussex public-house on the morning of the 18th April—I know the urinal there—there is a gutter outside it, beside the pavement—I found a bad shilling in that gutter—I took it home and gave it to the police-sergeant Brown, on the same night—I am sure it was the same shilling.

GEORGE BROWN (Police-sergeant, T 18). I took Williams in custody and took him to the Duke of Sussex—I found Harper there and took him in custody also—I had received information from Mr. Williams's potman—I then sent a constable one way, and went the other—Williams was stopped, by the constable, and I took him back to the Duke of Sussex public-house, and when I got back Harper was there—I produce four counterfeit shillings—I received three of them from Mrs. Williams, and this one from

Mr. Williams—it is the one that was represented to have been snatched from Mrs. Williams' hand—they are all marked, but that is marked different—I also received this counterfeit shilling (produced) from Balkwell—there are five altogether—I searched Harper and found on him a crown piece and ten sixpences, good money—on Williams I only found a penny.

JOHN LAVER (Policeman, T 230). On 17th April, I apprehended Williams, and went back with him and Sergeant Brown to the Duke of Sussex public-house—on the way to the station, Harper said, "I offered to pay good money for the bad if they would do away with it."

WILLIAM WEBSTER . The shilling found by Balkman, dated 1837, is bad; the one found by Taylor is bad, and from the same mould as the other; these three which were taken from the till are bad, and one is from the same mould as the other two.

The prisoner put in a written defence, stating that a man asked him to get a pot of beer, and gave him a shilling to pay for it, which he did, not knowing the shilling to be bad, and that the woman afterwards came out and stated that the shilling he had given was bad; that the policeman afterwards came, and asked him what money he had got, and he showed him; upon which the policeman took him into custody and accused him of passing a bad shilling; that he never had that shilling found in the urinal in his hand, and though he went in there, it was ten minutes or a quarter of an hour after the man had gone away; that he gave the policeman his right name and address, and that he might hem found that he had been there.

COURT to JOHN LAVER. Q. Did he say he had been at work? A. Yes; in the Bayswater-road.

JURY to SUSAN WILLIAMS. Q. What coin was paid to you in the way of making up the sum? A. Two separate shillings, by Williams, and two sixpences by Harper.

GUILTY .*— Confined Twelve Months .

OLD COURT.—Wednesday, June 12th, 1861.


Before Mr. Justice Crompton.

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-487
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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487. JOHN BROWN (57) , Feloniously uttering 2 forged 5l. notes, with intent to defraud.

PLEADED GUILTY .— Six Years' Penal Servitude .

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-488
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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488. WILLIAM HODSON (40) , Stealing a post letter, containing a sovereign, the property of Her Majesty's Postmaster-General; to which he

PLEADED GUILTY .— Three Years' Penal Servitude .

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-489
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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489. JAMES INCE ( ), Stealing, whilst employed in the Post-office, 23 canvas Bags, value 23s. the property of Her Majesty's Postmaster-General; to which he

PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Nine Months .

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-490
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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490. SETH SEYMOUR (40) , Unlawfully causing and procuring to be exposed for sale in Newgate-market, 240 lbs. of mutton, unfit for human food.

MR. SERJEANT PARRY and MR. BESLEY conducted the Prosecution.

CHARLES FISHER . I am collector and inspector of meat at Newgate-market

—on Thursday, 26th February, I went to Messrs. George Lee and Co.'s premises, and found the car cases of seven sheep—they were in the back premises, lying on the ground—they were in a very bad state—they were car cases of animals very much diseased, and totally unfit for human food—the whole seven weighed about 170 lbs. odd, together—these sheep would have weighed about six or seven stone each, in a proper state of health; that is about 56 lbs.—I did not institute further inquiry on the subject—I on demand the car cases at the time, and gave Mr. Lee a certificate of condemnation—I have not got that note—in my opinion the sheep had not been dead long; about two days perhaps—I have been a butcher—I was brought up to the trade—from the state of the meat when I saw it, the animals were decidedly diseased before they were killed, and that must have been quite apparent before they were sent off from the country.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. A. I suppose you mean that an experienced Butcher would be able to tell that a sheep, when alive, had something the matter with it, if it was in such a state as you saw these sheep? A. Yes; a person with a very slight knowledge of cattle would been able to tell they were diseased—the disease was, what we call in London, the rot—I am not acquainted with the professional name of it—it affects the liver—that is generally the seat of the rot disease—that disease generally proceeds from a previous wet season—I believe it generally begins with the liver; what we call the flounders in the liver—I do not know whether that is the hospital term—I did not see the livers of these sheep, I had no opportunity of seeing them; but I could judge from the general appearance of the car cases—I am not aware what would be the external indications, if those sheep were alive, that they had flounders in the liver—I am not a veterinary surgeon—they would be in a very lean and weak state—I do not know of anything else—I do not say that anybody who sees a sheep lean and weak ought to see that it had got flounders in the liver—I am not aware what other indications there would be—I did not apply to Mr. Lee, Mr. Lee sent for me—I had a conversation with him, merely on the state of the meat—I did not see the hamper in which the meat had been Brought—I did not learn from Mr. Lee that they had been sent to him by a Butcher of the name of Clifton—I asked him who sent them, and he told me he did not know—I believe I asked him since if he knew, and he told me that he did not; that he had had no advice with them—it is not the usual way of packing meat to send it up immediately after being slaughtered—it is not a good way it is only done so in hot weather to save it—it does not spoil it if done in cold weather—it is a bad way, because it would spoil the appearance of it—if the meat was packed warm, toe effect of a journey from Dorsetshire would be, that it would hot look so good a shape; it would be stained by being packed hot—it would not present many of the appearances that I found in this meat—it would not present a shiny appearance—it would depend on the weather, whether it presented a damp appearance—it would not present a damp appearance in February, because the weather would be cold—if it was warm in February it would alter the appearance of the meat; it would spoil the shape and cause it to be stained, it would not alter the quality—stained meat would not have an appearance of putridity, not to any one not a butcher, I should think—I cannot tell you when the first complaint was made against the defendant of having sent up Bad meat to the market—it was some time afterwards that I went before the magistrate about it—I cannot tell the exact date—it must have been about six weeks ago—it was some time in April—I did not take any

steps—the Commissioners of Sewers ordered the prosecution; I do not know when they ordered it—I went before them about the middle of April—that was the first time I was examined on the subject.

MR. SERJEANT PARRY. Q. You have not conducted this prosecution? A. Not at all—Mr. Charles Pearson, the solicitor for the Commissioners of sewers, conducts it—whatever I have done has been under his direction.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. What age were these sheep? A. I do not know; I could not tell—late lambs is an expression used in the country; supposing them to have been born in March, April, or May, in the preceding year we call them tags; that is the trade name; they are neither sheep nor lambs, but between.

MR. SERJEANT PARRY. Q. You say you believe these sheep would have weighed 56 lbs.? A. I think that would have been about the weight of them—the actual weight was 25 lbs.—I should certainly think that a sheep weighing 25 lbs. would present appearances of disease while alive, or just before death; I mean a sheep of that age—they would present while alive a very lean and emaciated appearance—if they were lame, the lameness might arise from disease, or accident, or from cold—I did not see any part of the inside of the animals; it was merely the car cases that were sent—the appearances of the car cases and the flesh were what one might expect from their having the rot; they were very wet; what I should call very wet sheep, which is an indication of disease—from what I saw of the car cases, I have not the slightest doubt that these sheep were diseased at the time they were killed.

GEORGE LEE . I am a salesman in Newgate-market—George Lee and Co. is the firm—on 26th February, I received a consignment of seven sheep, which were sent to me—I did not open the hamper—I saw the sheep when the hamper was opened—I did not see the hamper—my partner did—he can be sent for immediately—my partner gave me a piece of paper—when I saw the sheep they were unfit to be exposed, without being subjected to the inspector—they were unfit for human food—I sent for the inspector, Mr. Fisher, and he condemned them—I have not got the condemnation note; I sent it to Mr. Seymour—I wrote a letter to him by that night's post, with the note of condemnation—I did not keep a copy of that letter—I know the contents of it—my clerk posted it with other letters—he is at the market.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Was any hamper pointed out to you? A. I never saw any hamper at all.

MR. SERJEANT PARRY. Q. Did you yourself go down afterwards to see the defendant? A. I saw him at Wimborne, in Dorsetshire, on 8th March—Mr. Clifton, a butcher, was with me when I saw the defendant—I went to the Crown Hotel, at Wimborne—I was introduced to him by Clifton before I spoke to him—he said, "That is Mr. Seymour, who sent those seven sheep"—Mr. Seymour was then in the room—I cannot say whether he said it so as Mr. Seymour could have heard it—he might or he might not have heard it—I was introduced personally to Mr. Seymour.

COURT. Q. Do you mean by introducing, that he pointed him out to you? A. Yes; he said it was Mr. Seymour.

MR. SERJEANT PARRY. Q. Were you personally introduced by Clifton to Mr. Seymour as the salesman? A. I was told by Mr. Clifton that that was Mr. Seymour, and I went up to Mr. Seymour—I don't recollect whether Clifton said anything as to who I was then—I told him it was a bad job he had sent these sheep, and that I hoped he would not get into any trouble about

them, and if he had any more, not to think about sending them—he said he would not think about sending them—he acknowledged receiving the letter I had written to him—he said he had had the note of condemnation, he had received that.

COURT. Q. Did he say how it came to him? A. By post—I don't think he said anything about my letter.

MR. SERJEANT PARRY. Q. Had you enclosed in that letter a certificate of condemnation? A. I had; and fastened it up in the letter—he said the sheep did not belong to him, that he had sent them for another party.

Cross-examined. Q. And he mentioned the party's name did he not—he mentioned Mr. Edwards' name did he not? A. I do not know that he did—I have heard that Mr. Edwards was the owner of the sheep—I cannot distinctly say that he said that at the time—he told me the sheep did not Belong to him—he did not say that all he had done was to recommend Mr. Edwards, the butcher, inasmuch as he was a stranger to the place—I never heard him say anything of the kind—I wrote to Clifton by the same post that I wrote to the defendant—Clifton had been an old customer of mine, for ten or twelve years—he is a Butcher—I was asked by Mr. Fisher who was the butcher who had killed these sheep, and I refused to give the name—I said I did not know who they came from—I said I had no advice of the meat—I did not tell the inspector that, some days after the meat had arrived, to my knowledge—I cannot swear I did not—I should not like to say positively—I do not recollect that I told Fisher, days after I had written to the defendant and to the Butcher, that I did not know who had sent up the meat—I had never had anything from the prisoner before—I did not tell the inspector over and over again that I did not know the butcher who had slaughtered the meat—I don't think he questioned me upon the subject—I will not 8 wear I did not tell him—I did not know the name of the butcher—I never gave the name of the butcher at all—I refused to do so—I did not give up the name of Mr. Seymour—I did not mention his name to the inspector—he told me who they came from—I did not refuse to give up Clifton's name—I was not asked—I said just now that I declined to give up the name of the sender—I did so because I did not wish to turn informer—I have been a salesman in Newgate-market twenty years—we very seldom give the name—if persons in the country send us putrid meat, we refuse to give up the name of the sender—I don’t know what is the practice in Newgate-market—that is the practice of our firm.

MR. SERJEANT PARRY. Q. Do you get a deal of putrid meat sent up then, or not? A. I do not know; perhaps we have had five or six lots of had meat in the last six months—we have invariably called the attention of the inspectors of the market to it.

COURT. Q. Do you mean meat unfit for human food? A. Yes.

MR. SERJEANT PARRY. Q. You say you call the attention of the inspectors to it? A. Yes; before it is exposed for sale—we receive these hampers from all parts of the country, every market day—we know nothing of them before they arrive at our place—I have not taken the least part in promoting the prosecution of the defendant here—I have only given my evidence—I do not know Mr. Seymour at all—I never saw him until I saw him at Wimborne, on 8th March—I knew nothing of him till then.

JOHN BROWN . I am a partner of Mr. Lee—I remember this hamper coming up—it was opened by one of our men in my presence—I was selling outside at the time—I believe I saw the hamper opened—I did not see this note taken out of the hamper—one of the men gave it to me; I do not know which.

COURT. Q. Did you see the hamper, then, when he gave you that? A. I did.

Cross-examined. Q. Did you see the hamper so as to notice it? A. did—I believe it had the name of "Clifton, Butcher, Wim Borne," upon it—I believe the letters were painted on it—we do not very often have consignments of bad meat; occasionally we have—we immediately send for the inspectors and have the article condemned—we do not give the name of the sender—that is in order to avoid these painful proceedings, if. possible—we do not give the names if we can avoid it—we never sell anything that is at all doubtful in its character—I have not been in communication with Clifton since this affair—I saw him here last session—I have never seen him except in London.

JOHN CLIFTON . I am a Butcher, and reside at Wim Borne—I know Mr. Seymour—he is a farmer—I believe he takes sheep in to graze—he keeps sheep—I have never seen sheep on his farm—I have never been on his farm; not to see sheep—in February last, on a Friday, he came to me—I believe it was the 25th—he did not bring any sheep with him—he said he had some lame sheep which he wanted me to kill to send to the London market—I objected to have anything to do with them—I said that, situated as I was, with a family trade, it did not suit me, of course, to have anything to do with that sort of thing, as he stated they were lame—he said he would speak to Mr. Edwards about it, or something of that sort—he called once or twice again, but I was not in—I did see him again, on the evening of that same day, and he then stated that he had seen Mr. Edwards, and he had prevailed on him to send them to London for him in his name—he said he would send them in to me to go to London—I objected, and he said he would send them and he would be responsible for anything that happened—I was to send them in his name.

COURT. Q. He was to be responsible for what? A. For them—I believe that was the word—I objected twice—I had objected just before he said that—nothing more passed—that was all I heard, and I thought nothing more about it till the Monday evening—I did not persist any more in my objection—he said he would send them in, and I thought nothing more of the matter—I did not object any more—this was on the Friday evening—they came on the following Monday morning; the 25th—the conversation was on the Friday Before, not the 25th.

MR. SERJEANT PARRY. Q. Who brought them? A. Mr. Seymour's shepherd—I had them slaughtered—my man packed them—I wrote this piece of paper (produced) and put it in the hamper—(Read: "Mr. Seth Seymour, Little moor Farm, near Wimborne, Dorset")—they entered the sheep in my name, instead of Mr. Seymour's, at the railway station, and they applied to me for the carriage—I showed him the bill—I told the railway company they were not my sheep, and I should not pay the carriage unless Mr. Seymour authorised me to do so—I told that to the station master—I spoke to Mr. Seymour on the Wednesday evening following, about the carriage—I told him there was the carriage of the sheep, and asked him if he would authorise me to pay it or not, and he said "Yes."

COURT. Q. Did you show him the Bill? A. Yes—it was for the railway carriage—I paid it.

MR. SERJEANT PARRY. Q. Has the defendent been in the habit of dealing with you? A. He has had a few joints of meat from me—he has dealt with me a little—he deals with me, and has done so since, I should think, about the early part of December—if I had my book here I could prove it—I cannot remember—he has bought his meat of me.

Cross-examined. Q. You do not mean to say that Be regularly deals with you as his butcher? A. I do not know whether Be regularly deals with me—he has bad several joints of meat—it is impossible for me to say what his consumption of meat is—I cannot say without my Books whether he has had three joints of meat from me—it was not a great number of joints—Mr. Newman has seen me about this matter—I saw him twice when I came to London, and once he came into the country—I saw him in the lobby here, outside the door—I saw him before this, down at Wimborne—he and I did not arrange together that Mr. Seymour should be prosecuted—he asked me about the sheep—he wanted to ascertain who they came from, and I told him—he never told me that I was likely to be prosecuted—I Have no recollection of his telling me that I was in peril—he merely asked who the sheep came from—he did not tell me he had not made up his Mind whether he should summons me or Seymour; nothing of the kind—he did not tell me that it was not date mined—he did not tell me there had been a question about summoning me; nothing of the kind—I employed an attorney to watch the case for me at the Guildhall—I do not know to whom these sheep really belonged; Mr. Edwards, they said—Mr. Seymour told me they did not belong to him—I did not see Mr. Edwards before the sheep were slaughtered—he was pointed out to me when I came to London; at Guildhall—the skins went to the man that has my skins; the regular skin man—I did not sell them—he gives me what the value of them is—they went—I have not had any bargain, and have not had the money for them, but I know what it will be—I have accounted to Mr. Seymour for them in my credit book—I have not accounted for them to anybody personally, but they stand on my book credited such—I have not had a communication with anybody about them; not with Mr. Edwards, nor anyone on his behalf—Mr. Seymour and I have an account together—if he had called on me it would have been settled; the carriage and so forth.

MR. SERJEANT PARRY. Q. Was anything said by Seymour about the skins? A. Yes; he asked me how much he was to pay Mr. Edwards for them; how much I had booked them at—the sheep were credited to him at the time, of course—he asked me how much he was to pay to Mr. Edwards for the skins—that was some little time after, perhaps a fortnight or three weeks; I cannot say as to dates.

JURY. Q. Was any arrangement made between you and the defendant with respect to he carriage of the sheep, previous to their being sent? A. No; nothing whatever—I wrote the note to put into the hamper by his orders—as they were not his sheep the account would come to him, and of course, he would hand over to Mr. Edwards—we never send an invoice except in the hamper; at least, I do not.

COURT. Q. You do not send any invoice? A. Only in the Hamper—I call that the invoice—I had agreed with the defendant that I was to send them in his a me—it was not said between us why they were to go in his name; at least, they were not is, they were Mr. Edwards'—it was for the purpose of the account coming to him, as they belonged to Edwards, not at all with reference to the quality of the sheep—he did not mention Edward's name—I did not ask him any question about it.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTIN B. Q. Did Mr. Seymour bring the condemned note to you?A. He showed it to me—he did not bring it—I met him at the hotel—he brought it to me, of course—I do not recollect saying I would make it all right; I said I would write to Mr. Lee—I had no conversation about making it all right; of course it was more than I could do—(The condemned

note and letter were read as follows: Letter: "From Lee to Seymour, February 26th, 1861. You will see by the enclosed note that your seven sheep have been seized, and I must beg of you to be more careful and not send such, for you have laid yourself open to three months' imprisonment for sending such, if the Commissioners of Sewers like to proceed against you; and I am not sure that they will not." Condemnation Note: "City of London. I here by certify that I have this 26th day of February, 1861, condemned according to law, as unfit for human food, seven sheep on the premises occupied by Mr. George Lee, Newgate-market.—George Fisher.")

GEORGE LEE (re-examined). I did not receive any answer to that note.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. But you heard from Clifton, I suppose? A. I did.

COURT. Q. In reply to that; letter? A. No; about two days after I had sent that letter—I have not got the letter of Clifton here; I cannot find it.

ROBERT EDWARDS . I am a farmer at Shack with, in Somersetshire—in October last, I sent 100 sheep to Mr. Seymour, the defendant, to keep—they were to remain there till 6th April; that was the arrangement—I remember going to see them in February—I was not sent for—I saw the defendant, and we saw the sheep together—I saw the sheep altogether; they were very much crippled, as a flock—these seven were, and a few more were crippled, but not so bad—we took the seven out of the fold into the field, just away from the other sheep, over the hurdles—I told the defendant that he had better try to sell them or get rid of them, for I did not think they would be able to walk down into Somersetshire—I had them separated from the other sheep because I did not think they would be able to travel home—I never directed that those sheep should Be sent to the London market—I never directed them to be sent anywhere—I told the defendant he had better try to make sale or get rid of them, for I did not know what to do with them—that was all that passed in reference to those seven sheep, as far as I know—he told me that one or two of them were dead.

Cross-examined. Q. When did you bring these sheep to Mr. Seymour? A. They were sent there, I think, in October—they were driven from Shack with, that is near Glastonbury—I suppose it is about seventy miles, or nearly; I don't know exactly—they were taken to Mr. Seymour's to keep—they were what are called stock sheep—we also call them lambs—they were lambs when we sent them—they were born late that spring; about February or March—there is a good deal of difference in the weight of lambs—they may be seven or eight pounds a quarter, or ten pounds they may Be—when I speak of the weight, that is supposing them to be in good condition—there was nothing the matter with the sheep when I saw them, that I know of, except that they were lame—I could see nothing wrong except that they were lame—Mr. Seymour had no interest whatever in them, that I am aware of; not a farthing—they were mine—I did not see the butcher who killed them—I have seen him here, but never to speak to him in my life—I sent them to the higher lands to be there for a time, and then to come back to me again for store sheep—I found they were lame—if they had been able to walk I should have taken them back again—on my oath, I knew nothing else, and found nothing the matter with them at that time—I knew nothing wrong in the slightest degree with them except their being lame—I got back the rest of the sheep to Glastonbury, the whole of them—they are very well indeed.

COURT. Q. I think you said that one or two died? A. a that was Before; the others are all doing well—I have had a good many sheep in my time—I know

what the rot is; I know it if I was to see it—I did not see the slightest sign of the rot about these sheep—we did not take particular notice; we looked at them to see them turned out.

JURY. Q. Were all these sheep in a healthy condition when they left Glastonbury? A. Yes; perfectly so—the over-driving of these sheep would not predispose them to the complaint called the rot, that I am aware of—I sent them by a careful driver—I do not think that over fatigue would predispose them to the rot—this disease is not contagious; one sheep would not Be likely to catch it from another—a wet season is not likely to produce the rot.

COURT. Q. Would the same circumstances give it to a good many in the flock; they would not catch it from one another, but all would be exposed in the same way? A. Yes; they would not catch it the one from the other—it was in February that I saw the sheep; I don't know the day of the month—I should have thought about the beginning, or something like that; I am not certain.

M B. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Had you known Mr. Seymour before you sent these sheep to him? A. Never in my life, and never saw him.

JAMES NEWMAN . I am an inspector in Newgate-market—about half-past 8 o'clock, on the morning of 26th February, I saw these seven sheep; they were pointed out to me by Mr. Fisher—they were very wet, and sheep that had been ill from rottenness—I should imagine that they had been ill some months before they were killed—any one who knew sheep at all could tell that they were suffering from the rot, because they had wasted away so much—I was instructed to make inquiries about these sheep, and on 25th of April, I went down to Wimborne, and saw Mr. Clifton—I made inquiries from him—I had a summons with me—that is the summons (produced)—at the time I took that summons, down it was in blank as regards the name of the party.

COURT. Q. Do you get blank summonses from the Aldermen, and then serve them on whom you like? A. For the Christian name; the Christian name was in blank.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Just Be cautious and attend; I think both names were in blank if you look at it? A. The top line was in blank.

MR. SERJEANT PARRT. Q. Then not only the Christian name, but the name of the party summoned was in blank? A. Yes; "S. Seymour, farmer"—at this time, we had not as curtained clearly who had sent the sheep to the market—I made some inquiries of Clifton, and saw the defendant on the next day—I told him I was an officer, and had come down from London to make inquiries about seven sheep that he had sent up—he said he had got into trouble through being good-natured, that the sheep did not Belong to him, that they were part of a flock that he had had to graze for some other party, that the flock had done so badly, that he had sent for the owner to fetch them away, and these seven were so ill they were not able to travel with the rest; that the owner had left them and told him to get rid of them in the best way he could; and that he had sent for Clifton, and told him to kill them, and do the best he could with them—I asked him what was the matter with the sheep—I said, "These sheep were rotten I believe"—and he said, "Yes; the livers of them were coated, no doubt;" that means floundered—I asked him if he had received the condemned ticket—he said he had; he had got it in a drawer, I believe he said in a sideboard, or something of that sort—he got up to get it, but he turned back and did not do so; he went as if to get it—while we were talking a

gentleman came in, and Mr. Seymour said to him, "This is Mr. Newman, come from London about those sheep that I sent to George Lee"—the gentleman said, "It is a pity there should be any bother about them, as they did not belong to you"—he assured me that he knew the sheep did not belong to Mr. Seymour, for he had seen the man that he had taken the grazing of them from, and he hoped Mr. Seymour would not get into trouble—there was a long conversation about different matters, sheep and such like—the gentleman said that the sheep rot had been very prevalent in that neighbourhood, that he had got some himself that were bad at the present time, that he could find four or five of them of a morning that were very ill, but he had never sent any of them to London to market—he said he had seen these sheep on Mr. Seymour's land and had persuaded Mr. Seymour to have them taken away; they were thriving very badly indeed; they were not going on well.

COURT. Q. That he had seen the seven sheep? A. That he had seen the whole flock, and he had persuaded Mr. Seymour to send to the owner as they were thriving so badly—he did not say anything about these particular seven sheep.

MR. SERJEANT PARRY. Q. I think you have said that they seemed to have been suffering from disease for some months? A. I believe so—wasting away, and emaciation is a consequence of the rot—this summons is signed "R. W. Carden"—I got it from the Solicitor's office—after my interview with Mr. Seymour, I served him with the summons—that was at the time I first saw him, at his own house; the time I have been speaking of, at the interview I then had with him—this "Seth Seymour, farmer of Little moor-farm, in the parish of Preston," written here, is my writing.

Cross-examined. Q. From whom did you receive this summons? A. From the Solicitor's office; from one of the clerks there; I do not know who—I had seen Mr. Charles Pearson two or three times; I do not know whether I saw him that day—I had seen him about the summons—I had instructions from him what to do—my instructions were to summons Mr. Clifton, and whoever sent these sheep up, if there was any other party—the word "butcher" stood there, before: I scratched out "Wimborne, butcher" myself, when I put in the other—I filled that up with the name of Seth Seymour, on the 26th, the day I delivered it to him, at an hotel in Wimborne—I do not know that any one was present when I filled it up; no one that took any notice of me—there were persons in the room—the name of Seth Seymour, in the body of the warrant, is also my handwriting—I also had a copy of that summons—I had one for Mr. Clifton, not in blank, and one with the name blank, and two copies as well—I brought back the one I took for Clifton—I have not got that other summons—I do not keep papers—the defendant said that the liver was coabed—when I was examined at the Guildhall, I produced a memorandum-Book, from which I professed to refresh my memory—I have it here (produced)—it is a few notes that I took when I got to the hotel; the conversation was at his own house—there is not a single word here about a coabed liver—I did not say to Mr. Rawlins, to Mr. Petty, and to Mr. Lowell, that I believed Mr. Clifton was guilty, and that Mr. Seymour was entirely innocent; not in those words—I did not say that Mr. Clifton was the person that ought to have been prosecuted—I do not say that I said nothing of the kind; I said I considered Mr. Clifton more to blame than Mr. Seymour; being a butcher, he ought to have known better—I do not know who was there: I said that—I did not say to

each of those three gentlemen that I believed Mr. Seymour to be innocent—I have no recollection of anything of the sort at all—I will pledge my oath I did not say it, to my recollection; I do not recollect a word of it—I said that I considered Mr. Clifton more to blame than Mr. Seymour; he, being a butcher, ought to have known whether the sheep were proper to send or not—I pledge my oath that I did not say I believed Mr. Seymour to be innocent—I swear I never said anything about his being innocent to any of these gentlemen—I did not say I believed Mr. Seymour to be the innocent party—I served Seymour with the summons instead of Clifton, because I knew they did not belong to Clifton—I had two glasses of sherry with him—Seymour said that had he known that the sheep were so bad he would not have wished them sent—he used the word "so"—I have looked at my memorandum—I decidedly repeat that he used the words "so bad"—(The memorandum was read as follows: "26th. I saw Mr. Seymour; he is a farmer. I told him I came from London, about seven sheep he had sent to Mr. Lee on February 26th, and that they were seized. He said he had innocently got into trouble, through being good-natured; he said the sheep did not belong to him, but were part of a flock he took in to graze from a man at Glastonbury; and these seven sent to London were not able to travel, and that the owner, who took the others away, told him to make the best he could of them; that thereupon he told Mr. Clifton to take them away, and do what he thought best with them, and Clifton had done so. He also stated that had Clifton told him they were bad he would not have wished them sent.")

JURY. Q. I understand you to say that Seymour acknowledged they were diseased? A. Yes; he said they were so bad they were not able to walk with the others.

MR. SERJEANT PARRY. Q. How long were you altogether with Seymour conversing about these sheep? A. More than half an hour, I should say; and about half that time, I think, with the gentleman that came in with me—I brought the summons against Clifton back to London, because I found he had no ownership of the sheep at all.

COURT. Q. But you knew Seymour had no ownership? A. But they were only sent to the butcher to be killed on his premises, and sent away—I found that from Clifton when I got there, and I subpoenaed him as a witness and summoned Mr. Seymour—I found I had got the name of Mr. Clifton, and put this name in the summons—I was not asked before the Magistrate about the rot or about the coating of the liver—I did not say anything About it—this is the first time I have said anything about it in public—I found that Mr. Seymour had not seen the sheep after they were killed—I gave Clifton a guinea with his subpoena when I saw him on the 26th—I subpoenaed him that night, and I could not see the defendant—the guinea was with the subpoena.


10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-491
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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491. HENRY MILES (29) , Feloniously uttering, on 26th April, a forged 5l. bank note; to which he

PLEADED GUILTY .— Five Years' Penal Servitude .

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-492
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceMiscellaneous > fine

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492. JOHN COX (65) , Unlawfully causing and procuring 400 lbs. of beef to be exposed for sale in Newgate-market, unfit for human food.

MESSRS. GIFFARD and RIBTON conducted the Prosecution.

CHARLES FISHER . I am inspector and collector of Newgate-market—on 18th April, last Heath, Mr. Baker's man, called my attention to some beef in the market, on Mr. Baker's premises—it was four quarters of a cow, the

head, tongue, heart, and liver—when I first saw them they were in the hamper marked "J. Cox," and there was a label on the hamper directed to Baker and Son, Newgate-market, from Mr. Cox;" and there was "High-Bridge Station" on it—I took this label off the hamper—the meat was packed with a cloth—that is the usual way in which all meat is sent up to market for sale—in my opinion, it was the carcase of a cow that had died from calving; the meat was in a very inflamed condition—it had evidently died, from the appearance of it; not been fairly killed, in my opinion—it was totally unfit for human food—the heart had the appearance of the heart of an animal that had died, not been killed; it was full of blood—that would not have been the case if the animal had been killed—the fat was red, and the whole of the carcase was quite unfit for human food—I seized it—I have been a butcher all my life—I believe I am perfectly qualified to form an opinion upon the matter—I gave into Mr. Baker's counting-house a condemnation note, in the usual way, and I also had the meat further examined by Mr. Newman, and by Mr. Davidson, the inspector at Leadenhall-market—I took it to the Guildhall Justice-room, and it was condemned by Mr. Alderman Finnis; he examined it, and ordered it to be destroyed.

Cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH. Q. You have great confidence in your own judgment and also in Mr. Newman's? A. He was of the same opinion as I was—the inspector of Leadenhall-market was there; I called his attention to it at the same time—the flesh of dead animals is not sent to Newgate market for other purposes besides for human food—I never knew it to be sent up to Newgate-market and then disposed of there by the salesmen to knackers, to make use of the bones and fat for manufacturing purposes—I never knew it sent for that purpose—it is not a fact that meat sent up to Newgate-market, obviously unfit for human food, is disposed of to persons of that description—I have known of such a thing, but not meat of this character—there is a difference between diseased meat and meat spoilt in its transit by the weather; good meat may be in an unfit condition when it arrives in the market in consequence of the weather.

COURT. Q. You said you never knew of meat sent to Newgate-market for sale to the knackers? A. No—good meat spoilt by the weather is sold for the purposes it is fit for; for boiling, perhaps—it may be good when it leaves the country and yet be bad when it arrives at the market.

MR. SLEIGH. Q. Then it may be good to all appearance to the person slaughtering it in the country, and in process of packing would be entirely spoilt? A. By the hot weather—when meat is sent to Newgate-market it is sent for the purpose of sale as human food—the Bakers are meat-salesmen—they do not profess to receive dog's meat—I do not know it to be the practice, when animals die or casualties occur to them, that the salesman sells the meat to persons of that description—I know it is not the practice—I never heard of such a thing in my life; it certainly is not the practice—I never saw it done, only in the way in which I state—the salesmen, if they get meat that is spoilt, send it to the boilers—I did not detect any disease in this animal, it was in an inflammatory state—I did not detect any diseased liver about this carcase—it weighed a little over 300 lbs.; there are eight pounds to a stone—that would be the proper weight for an animal of that size.

MR. RIBTON. Q. Without suffering from chronic disease, was the flesh unfit for human food? A. Yes, in consequence of the inflammation the animal must have been in while living—this meat had not the slightest appearance which would warrant one in saying it had suffered in the transit

—when persons in Newgate-market send meat to the boilers, it is meat that has been spoiled in the transit—we condemn it for that purpose; we give them permission to sell it to the boilers.

COURT. Q. Is it usual to send up animals for food that have died in calving? A. No, it is not.

MR. RIBTON. Q. You have had twelve years' experience in the market? A. Yes—this was certainly not meat that ought to have been sent for human food.

WILLIAM DAVIDSON . I am the inspector and collector of Leadenhall-market,—and have been so for twenty-one years—I have had a good deal of experience in carcases of meat—I was requested to examine this meat at the Guildhall-yard Police-court—it was four quarters of a cow that had evidently died from calving—the aitches of it were in a very inflamed state and gorged with blood—it was decidedly unfit for human food.

JOHN WHITTING . I am a farmer, at Tarloch, in Somersetshire, near High-Bridge—in April a cow belonging to me died—I found it dead in a ditch—I went to see her in the night about 12 o'clock, knowing she was near calving, and there was nothing the matter with her—I went again about 5 in the morning and found her in the ditch dead—I thought she was trying to calve, and had rolled in on her back—she died from falling into the ditch—she was worth about 15l. at dairy—she was in a perfectly sound condition—I sent for the butcher to skin her, and he skinned her by my direction—I sold the carcase to a Mr. Boddy.

Cross-examined. Q. You do not mean that the cow would have been worth 15l. supposing she had been in good health and been slaughtered? A. No; I mean if she had lived.

COURT. Q. What was the value when skinned by the butcher? A. I am not sufficient judge to say—I could not form the least idea—I do not deal in dead stock—the calf was in her, and went with the body in the bargain.

GEORGE RUSSELL . I am a detective officer of the City—on 17th May I saw the defendant at his house, at bad worth, in Somersetshire—he is a butcher there—I told him that I had come from London to make some inquiries concerning a cow that he had consigned to Messrs. Baker and Son, of Newgate-market—he said, "Is there going to be any bother about that? I have had two bothers already about it"—I said, "Do you mean going to Highbridge and paying the railway charges?"—he said, "Yes, I do"—I said, "I have heard that you did not consign the carcase of the cow on your own account, and if you choose to give me an explanation concerning it you can: you are not obliged to do so"—he then stated that a man of the name of Boddy, a butcher, living at Biddenham had come to him, and after some conversation had asked him to Buy the cow, and had asked him thirty shillings for it, that he bid him twenty-five shillings and he had the cow—he said there was some arrangement between him and Boddy, that he (Cox) was to send the cow to market, and that whatever the cow made, he (Cox) should have a profit—he likewise stated that he himself had taken the hamper containing the cow to Highbridge station, and had got the porter at the railway to sign the forwarding ticket, and the porter did sign it for him.

Cross-examined. Q. Did you go down to bad worth on two occasions? A. No; only once, on the 17th—I went by instructions from the City Solicitor—I did not take a summons with me—Mr. Fisher served it—I believe that was a long while after my visit—I went down to collect evidence—I did not make any particular inquiries about the defendant—I believe he is

a respectable man—I did not introduce myself to him as a detective officer of London—I did not tell him what I was—I was there before he came home—he came in while I was there—I was not hospitably entertained in his back-parlour—I was waiting in his shop—I did not know that I told him at all that I was a detective—I told him I had come to make inquiries, and gave him the usual caution—I had ascertained that he had been applied to about the railway charges, and had paid them—I did not communicate with the railway people previous to their making application for the carriage—I think the Bakers' people did—I have not mentioned before to day about his stating that there was an arrangement between Boddy and himself that he was to have a profit—I should have stated it before the Magistrate, but I was stopped and told it was not material—that was my only reason for not telling it.

GEORGE BAILEY . I am clerk to the Bristol and Exeter Railway Company at Highbridge station—I wrote this letter to the defendant—(Read: "Highbridge station, April 27th, 1861. To J. Cox. Sir,—On 17th instant you consigned a hamper of meat from this station to Baker and Son, Newgate-market, London. I have received advice that this meat was quite unfit for sale, and was seized by the authorities, condemned, and destroyed. I am therefore instructed to apply to you for the amount of carriage, 10s. 9d., and also to say, if not paid early, further steps will Be taken in the matter. An early reply will oblige."—The defendant called upon me after the receipt of that letter, and paid me the 10s. 9d. on the 29th—I after wards wrote him a second letter, on 3d May, demanding 8d. more for the cartage of the hamper from Paddington to the market—(read)—that was also paid.

Cross-examined. Q. Was he in the habit of sending up hampers to London by railway? A. Yes; frequently.

JAMES PADDON . I am porter at the Highbridge station—on 17th April I received a hamper, I believe, from Mr. Cox—this label (produced) was upon it.

JOHN CHARLES HEATH . I am a butcher, in the employment of Mr. Baker, of Newgate-market—on the morning of 18th April, I remember a hamper being brought from the Great Western Railway, containing four quarters of Beef—I caot say what the weight was—this label was upon it—I called Mr. Fisher's attention to it as soon as I found the state it was in—it was not fit to be sold—I opened it—Mr. Baker is unwell—meat that was to be sent to the boilers or knackers would not be proper to be sent up to Mr. Baker.

Cross-examined. Q. Have you been in Court during this trial? A. Yes; I heard Mr. Fisher examined—since I have been employed by Mr. Baker I have never known that meat sent up for the purpose of human food has been disposed of to the boilers or fat meters—I have had extensive experience in the market—I never heard of such a thing, not in Newgate-market—if meat comes up that has been spoilt we do not send it to the boilers—if we have any doubt, we always let the inspector see it before it is cut up—I am not aware that, after the inspector has seen it, it is sometimes sold to the boilers or melters—I never heard of such a thing—I never heard of the consignment of diseased or dead animals, except for sale in the market—I have known Mr. Cox by name as a customer of Mr. Baker's for the last four years—I have been there four years—during that time he has been in the habit of constantly consigning meat to Mr. Baker, and always the best of meat—we never had the slightest complaint to make of any meat he ever sent up.

MR. RIBTON. Q. Did you ever know of diseased meat, unfit for food, being sent up by railway, to be sent to the boilers? A. No; it would not pay the carriage—this meat came up with a cloth round it—it was dressed and washed precisely in the same way that meat is sent to the market to be sold, and as Mr. Cox had been in the habit of sending it up.

MR. SLEIGH here stated that, under his advice, the. defendant would retract his Plea, and PLEAD GUILTY to the charge.

GUILTY .— Fined 20l.

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-493
VerdictGuilty > lesser offence
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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493. LUCY TYRRELL (36) , Feloniously wounding Mary Ann Clark upon the head, with intent to murder her. Second Count, With intent to do her some grievous bodily harm.

MR. CARTER conducted the Prosecution.

MART ANN CLARK . My husband is a labourer, working for Mr. Newman—the prisoner's husband is also a workman of his—on 19th April last, about half-past 6 in the morning, I was in bed—my husband bad not left me five minutes—he had gone out and come back again—while I was in bed, the prisoner came in, and asked what I was doing—I said, "Lying in bed"—she had a shawl over her head—she came to my bedside, drew a hammer from under the shawl, and struck me on the head with it—I made my way out of bed, and struggled downstairs to get out of doors—I was calling "Murder!"and making an alarm—she struck me several blows with the hammer at the foot of the stairs—I had nothing on but my night dress—a man named Ball came up—he took hold of the prisoner, and held her till assistance came, and he took the hammer out of her hand—the blood flowed from my head, and the skin was Broken in several places—I did not hear her use any expressions towards me—I was confined to my bed for upwards of a fortnight in consequence of the blows, I was faint and insensible.

HENRY BULLOCK . I am a surgeon—I saw the prosecutrix between 11 and 12 the same morning—she had four wounds on her head—they seemed to have been given with considerable violence—they exposed the bone—I could hardly tell whether they were given by the blunt or claw end of the hammer; they were irregular, contused wounds, as if given with some blunt instrument.

GEORGE WHITE (Policeman, T 218). I apprehended the prisoner about a quarter of an hour or twenty minutes after this had happened—she said, "Take me; I meant murdering her if Ball had not taken her away"—I produce the hammer.

Cross-examined by MR. COOPER. Q. I suppose she was very much excited at the time?—A. She was excited—she did not at that time accuse the prosecutrix of having her husband.

The prisoner's statement before the Magistrate was read as follows:—"It is ten weeks ago since I and my husband were here. I was then living with my sister. My husband asked me to come home, and he would give Mrs. Clark's company up. I said I was afraid to come home, for she would not let him. I went into the house when my husband and Mrs. Clark had done tea. Mrs. Clark said, 'Put her out of the house, Charley,' meaning her husband. I said I should not go out of the house without my husband. She said, 'Go and fetch White, and have her locked up.' White, the constable, came: my husband told him that he did not send for him. Mrs. Clark said, 'Put her out or lock her up, and do not let her annoy me.' I went out afterwards with my husband; he stopped out with me till 10 o'clock. He did not come home to me till Saturday night. I slept at our

house. Mrs. Clark took her things out on the Tuesday before the Friday. Mrs. Clark came down in her chemise, at half-past 5, to let my husband in, I prevented her going. She said she would open the door for him at any time she liked. I saw Mrs. Clark, and said, 'You have been along with my husband again.' She said she had; and was going to meet him again that night, and he would buy her a new cap; and that he would not give me any more money. I saw Mrs. Clark and my husband go upstairs together, and come down, and I heard her say to my husband, that Charley could see that something was the matter with her. She said, 'Don't have her home again.' My husband said he must, for I was his wife, and he must keep me. She said she would lose her life before she should give up my husband's company. My husband has given her a shawl."

GUILTY on Second Count—Recommended to mercy in consequence of the great provocation.

Three Years' Penal Servitude .

NEW COURT.—Wednesday, June 12, 1861.



Before Mr. Baron Bramwell.

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-494
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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494. JOHN DURDIN (45), and JAMES HOLCROFT (50) , Stealing the sums of 185l., 150l., and 86l. 11s. 5d., the property of Mark Hunter, one of the public officers of the Commercial Bank, in his dwelling-house.

MESSRS. GIFFARD and POLAND conducted the Prosecution.

JOHN SLANN . I was ledger-keeper in the Commercial Bank of London, at the Henrietta-street Branch—I have been at the ledgers nearly ten yean—the prisoner Durdin, was a ledger-keeper at the same Bank—there were five current account ledgers latterly—they were divided from A to C, from D to H, from I to M, from N to Sl, and from Sl Z—the ledger D to H was kept by Durdin—it contained the Balances of the current accounts of customers whose names begin with D, and ending with H—it contains their accounts altogether—I know Holcroft by sight, as a customer of the Bank—I have seen him there generally two or three times a day, and on those occasions, he nearly always spoke to Durdin, either a note, or by word of mouth—they generally talked in the first portion of the Bank, away from the cashiers' desks—I have very frequently seen Holcroft's wife come to the Bank—she generally had a letter for Durdin, or spoke to him—I was not near enough to hear what was said, and I should say the other clerks were not—when I have seen Holcroft there, I have put many questions to Durdin at different times, and he always evaded it—I did not put any direct questions to him, as to his connexion with Holcroft; but I used to call him his man of business, which he did not seem at all times to approve of—six of the clerks used to take it in turns to remain till 9 at night—I remember one Saturday when it was my turn to remain till 9—I am not quite certain whether it was the Saturday, or Saturday week previous to the discovery of the fraud; but think it was the Saturday previous—Durdin had not been to the Bank since the Thursday—he left on the Thursday, and sent for me on the following Saturday—he had been away from illness; an attack of paralysis, I believe—he sent a ca B for me while I was at the Bank, saying that he should very much like to see me—I got somebody to remain at the Bank for me—I knew one of the parties who used to stop at

the Bank for Durdin; but Mr. Beal, one of the senior ledger-keepers, was there, and he offered to remain for me—I went in the cab to Durdin's house at 7, or half-past 7, and found him in bed—he said that he merely wished to ask me how his portion of the work at the Bank was getting on—I thought it was only natural, as I presumed he felt an interest in the concern—I think he detained me full an hour—I made several attempts to leave; but he requested me not to hurry away—when I got back to the Bank, it was about half-past 7—if I had remained at the Bank, I should have bad access to Durdin's books—Durdin returned to the Bank to do duty, I think, on the following Wednesday—he worked at his calendars to see that the balances were correct—they would contain the balances from the different ledgers—he was decidedly very ill—he worked at his calendars for a day or two the Bank, and I offered to come and help him in the evening, as I did not like to see him getting so much behind—he said that he thought he should soon have them up by himself again, as he was only able to post—I considered his remark was very natural; and said, "I shall see how you get on"—I believe I spoke to him one Saturday, about coming to work at night, as he told me that Mr. Beadon had told him I was coming to help him with his work of a night, to make his work right—he said that he would not allow any one to touch his work for anything—I said, that I had told the men that I was coming in, and therefore I should come—he said, "Well, if you are coming, I shall stop, and I shall stop as long as you stop"—he pushed himself back in his chair, and said to the porter, "Here, help me to the desk; it seems as if I could not get on fast enough for them"—I left at 5, returned at 7, and found Durdin there at his old post—(about 5 o'clock was his average time to leave); he asked me to take the ledgers, and he would keep the calendar and go through it, and tell me which accounts were altered, as every account does not alter during the day; it is merely those who draw money out or pay money in—I took the ledger, and Durdin kept the calendar—we continued to work till about 9 o'clock, when Durdin appeared ill; he looked excited, and said that he should give up, and lock up his papers—I said that he could do as he pleased, the papers were of no value, and it would take me some time to get the particulars again—we were very busy, as we had lost one of our clerks—he locked up the papers—he left first; I then assisted the other ledger-keeper, and left between 9 and 10—I came next morning, Friday 15th, at my usual time, 9 o'clock—Durdin was not in the habit of coming before 11 or 12—I examined the calendar which Durdin had had the previous night; he had not locked it up, but merely the papers—I found that he had taken the amounts correctly into the other calendar which I re-cast, and found it differed 30,000l.—these (produced) are the three calendars—there is not. one calendar to each ledger; two calendars contain two ledgers each, and the other but one—they are A to C, D to M, and N to Z—the D to M calendar was kept by Durdin, the balance of the three calendars would be posted up and the first calendar A to C would contain the balance of the three.

COURT. Q. Is this a calendar? A. Yes; these are the dates of balances—we have not to write the names every day, they last three weeks; they last as many days as there are columns, eighteen days—these figures represent the balance of the A to B ledger, these the D to M, and these N to Z—this is his casting; it is 30,000l. exactly—these are his figures these two rows, and these are the senior ledger-keeper's.

MR. POLAND. Q. Is that addition mis-cast 30,000l.? A. Yes; fearing that there might be further mis-casting, I re-cast Durdin's calendar roughly,

merely the pounds, not the shillings and pence, and found that it had been mis-cast about 36,000l.—the balance truly corresponded with the ledger, but it had been mis-cast—when I found that large deficiency I did not speak to the manager immediately, not during the morning—that same morning Durdin came to the bank; Holcroft came during the day and was asked into the back room to see Durdin—he remained with him alone a quarter of an hour or twenty minutes—after banking hours I left at my usual time, leaving Durdin there—I went to Mr. Chancey, the manager of the bank, that night, and communicated with him—I was afraid to communicate it to him during the day, fearing some serious consequences might arise—he and I returned to the bank and examined the books—we got there about 8 o'clock or a little after; we found Durdin there in his usual place with some books before him, his calendars, I believe—Mr. Chancey told him that he wished to speak to him.

COURT. Q. If I understand you right, every night after the drawings out and payings in are put into the ledger, it is the duty of the ledger-clerk to put down in the calendar the actual balances as they appear in the ledger? A. Yes; those that have altered—those that did not alter he would merely repeat—we turned them over by the papers; wherever there is any paper, we know it is the same, and that facilitates it; all those that do not alter we enter as the same—that is done after the last possible paying in or drawing out.

MR. POLAND. Q. Used Durdin ever to remain till 9 o'clock,? A. Not on duty, at all events; not doing what we call the notary duty—he would post his ledger and calendar during the day—it was not posted on the day of the transaction, not till next morning, unless anyone of us wished to go out next day, and then we carried our balance the same evening—the manager spoke to Durdin and requested him to go into the room—he asked him if what I had been saying was correct, that he had made away with 30,000l.—Mr. Chancey said, "Good God! is it true? and asked him how he had done it—he said he would rather tell him when he was alone, and I left the room, leaving him with Mr. Chancey.

Cross-examined by MR. BESLEY. Q. You have said that Durden had the whole control, of the letters D to M? A. Yes; of all the current accounts between D and M—we had an account some years back of a person named Joel—Durdin had to post that, it was between D and M—we presumed that that account was correct from Durdin passing it—no one checked it but him unless it differed—I am not sure who did the Books at that time—if Durdin had anybody to look at it, it would be either myself or Mr. Bessle, and no others; that is to say to post his account, not to compare his book—it was not the duty of some other clerk to post the ledgers—there are about ten clerks, but none of them would have to do it, because we do not consider the juniors capable—anybody might have referred to Joel's account—if they were asked a question, they might have examined it and checked it with the ledger if they thought proper—they were not barred from doing it—Durdin worked at his calendar on the Wednesday following, testing it to see if it agreed—that was all he had to do; he was not able to do anything else—when he locked up his papers, nothing passed—I said he could do as he liked—his papers were always left and his calendars were placed on one side—the little papers were there on which he would jot down from the calendars: they were not altogether private memorandums—they were not bank books; they were his own private slips—they were destroyed after we had tried them—5 o'clock was the average time for leaving—Durdin

remained there after 5 on two nights when I found him there, that is all know of—I think I generally left before him—I have no doubt I did—he frequently left with me; but generally I went before him.

Cross-examined by MR. HAWKINS. Q. How long have you known Holcroft? A. Seven or eight years—he is a boot and shoe manufacturer—when I first knew him he carried on business at Hatton-garden I believe—I have not been there—I knew him as a boot and shoe salesman when I first saw him—I should say from my remembrance that he had opened an account at the Commercial Bank as early as 1851 or 1852—I cannot say without referring whether it was a discount account—he has had a continuous account since 1851—I do not think it was any part of my duty to attend to Holcroft's account—I never had the ledger from D to H or to M; I only had the ledger M to Z—I saw Holcroft at the bank sometimes two or three times a day; he came twice every day on the average—I have seen him pay money in frequently, rather small sums usually—I never knew him pay in so much as 200l. or 300l.; but it is not my duty to receive money—I have been at the counter occasionally, during the last few weeks, but it is not my duty—the room in which the clerks sit is not very small; there are about ten clerks in it—Holcroft remained in that room with the ten clerks in it generally—Durdin sat between me and Mr. Beedle—when Holcroft wanted to speak to Durdin he did not go to his desk—Durdin sometimes went out, passed me, and spoke to him, but he generally spoke to him through the rails—I have sometimes spoken to a customer through the rails, and have gone to the inner office if anybody wanted to see me—when I have seen Mrs. Holcroft there, she has paid in or received money—I have seen Mr. and Mrs. Holcroft there without paying in or receiving, because they have been there to make inquiries relating to some required cheque or bill—I did not hear the inquiries made, but I know it from entries in the Books—various cheques of his were returned, we not having funds in our hands to meet them—I am not aware that I ever mentioned Holcroft's name in his presence to anybody—I used to call him Durdin's man of business—I never alluded to that to Durdin; it was merely a jocose expression—Durdin was a person of great confidence in the bank—I do not know that he was engaged in any building speculations—I know, about 1852 or 1853, he used to buy Cobre copper mining shares, and sell them again, and I think he did something with Clue Vay—I am not aware of anything else—I know a person named Ramsay; he was a customer of the bank from 1851 to 1853—I do not know say that he was an intimate friend of Durdin, but cannot speak positively—I have seen him, but perhaps not once a year on the average—I know Durdin used to see him, but not at the bank—I know that he was building very largely, between 1851 and 1853—I do not know whether Durdin advanced him money—I saw Ramsay in the lobby here—I never suspected Durdin, and do not think anybody else did—I looked upon him as the most honest man in the bank, or as honest a man.

CHARLES ARTHUR WILLIAM CHAUNCEY . I was, a short him ago, manager of the Henrietta-street branch of the Commercial Bank—Durdin was ledger-keeper there—his salary was raised, I think, to 150l. last Christmas—I received information from Mr. Slann, on the afternoon of 15th February, in consequence of which, I went the same evening to the Commercial Bank, shortly after 8, or between 8 and 9—I found Durdin there, working upon his ledger—I desired him to come into my room, and told him I had reason to believe that there was something wrong in his ledgers, and asked him if that was the case; after some hesitation, he said he would

rather speak in the absence of Mr. Slann, who then with drew; and on his withdrawal I believe he said, "I see by your face that there is something wrong, how much is it?"—he had a pencil in his hand, and he wrote on a small piece of paper the sum of 66, 992l. 7s. 8d.—I have it here; this is it (produced)—I was very much agitated and amazed when I saw that, and I did not know what to say for a moment or two—I then inquired how it was done, and he said, "It was done through Mr. Holcroft's account"—I asked him how it had been done, and he said it had been done by posting sums which had been received to some one else's account, to the account, not only of the owners of the sums, but Mr. Holcroft as well—I believe, but I am not certain, that he said he had operated through his own account as well—I am not quite certain whether he said that account was closed—he also informed me that Mr. Holcroft was not cognisant of the transaction in any sort or kind of way—very little more was said, and I left the bank—he told me he had some promissory notes of Mr. Holcroft's to the extent of 6,000l. and that he thought they would be ultimately good—I believe he alleged that Holcroft's father or a relative died shortly before, and that, through him, he was likely to receive a certain sum of money—I think he said something to the effect that he hoped the Bank would make him a loan of the money, and take his promissory note, or some such proposition at that—he said he had house property to the amount of 20,000l. of which he promised to give me particulars—he asked what my intentions were—I said I could not tell; I might probably have said, "I shall feel it my duty to consult others"—I knew Holcroft by sight, and knew that he had an account at the bank.

Cross-examined by MR. BESLEY. Q. Can you tell us how long Durdin has been in the service of the bank? A. I cannot—his name is in my Book as having been at the Henrietta-street branch since 1849—when I went to him I did not sympathize with him on his illness—I did not hold out any idea of his being prosecuted—I merely asked him whether the facts told to me were true or false—money paid over the counter is first put by the customer, on a slip of paper, called the "paid-in slip," which is examined by the cashier to see whether the items upon it are accounted for by the cheque which he gets, and then it is entered by him in the cash-book, and from the cash-book into the ledger—if the customer's pass-book is in at the time, it is entered in it the next day; but it is always entered in the pass-book at the time of the receipt, if the customer brings it, and requests it to be done—it is very unusual for all the entries in the three books to be made by the same clerk—I have never known it except in particular instances, such as the case of a trial, when half the clerks are taken away, and then the clerk who is left must do the other's business—we make a balance-sheet every day, and a special one every half-year—we do not supply the balance-sheets to our shareholders—the half-yearly balance-sheet is a combination of the daily ones, and somewhat shortened—it shows the same result in a different form if the balances are correct—we insert every day, in the balance-sheet any account we have allowed to be overdrawn, showing that it is overdrawn—the only difference in the half-yearly balance-sheet is, that it is amalgamated—it is a matter of arrangement what commission we charge on overdrawn accounts—the clerks have not authority to allow persons to overdraw; unless they have a general order they must refer to the manager.

Q. If you authorize a cheque to be overdrawn would there not Be a larger charge to the customer, and a larger profit to the bank? A. No—we set our face against that—we do charge upon overdrawn accounts—we should

let a good customer overdraw his account for a few days and charge him no interest—we do charge interest on overdrawn accounts, and it forms part of our profits and comes into the half-yearly balance.

Cross-examined by MR. HAWKINS. Q. What do you say his property consisted of? A. He said it consisted of house property at Northampton, and also other houses—I made no further inquiry of him—he did not hand me the promissory notes for 6,000l.—I believe I had them in my hands at the police-court before—I never had them to see them—I did not ask him when or how he got them, because I understood him to say that he had made Bona fide advances to Holcroft—he did not say that he had been in the habit of discounting Holcroft's bills himself—he gave me no account of Holcroft's transactions—I saw Holcroft when he was in custody—I instructed Mackenzie to arrest him, and he brought him to my office at the bank before he was arrested—Holcroft said that it was a very serious charge—I did not say "What have you brought him here for? take him away"—I asked him what he had brought him for, and the officer said that he wanted to speak to me—I do not recollect more of what he said than that it was a very serious charge that I was bringing against him, and that he had the means of showing that he was innocent—it is very likely I said "I suppose you know your position;" and I believe he said, "I really don't understand what you mean"—I charged him with stealing three separate sums of money, and ordered the officer to take him in charge—immediately following on his observation, "I really do not understand what you mean," I gave him in charge, reading from a slip of paper—I did not charge him with stealing 6,000l.—I, charged him with stealing three sums—this (produced) is the slip of paper.

COURT. Q. Did you say "What have you brought him here for?" A. Yes; because I understood that the officer would take him without any further orders from me—I had instructed the officer before, in conjunction with Mr. Humphreys—after Holcroft was in charge he sent for me—I believe he made some statement to the effect that he was willing to give any explanation in his power that I might require; how he became acquainted with Durdin, and every transaction with him—I cannot say the exact words—I made no inquiry of him—for some reason or other it did not strike me that the condition of these accounts was such as would have caused a greater balance—the actual increasing balance had more than covered the sum abstracted, and it had not occurred to me that it had increased to such an extent.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. Did you hear any conversation between Holcroft and Mackenzie? A. No—all that I recollect is, that Holcroft said at the station that he had been in a kind of partnership with a man in the City, whose name he did not mention—I asked who the gentleman was, and he refused to give me his name—I did not ask him to give me any explanation of the entries to his credit—Mackenzie was present.

MR. HAWKINS. Q. You said that you did not want any explanation just now? A. That was at the bank—I put no question to him then, but gave him in custody, and afterwards he sent for me to the station, and told me these facts—he did not tell me at the station that he was ready to give me an account of every transaction he had had with Durdin—it is impossible for me to charge my memory with it—I was greatly excited—I believe I understood him to say at the station, as well as at the bank, that every explanation he could give, or that I required, as to his transactions with Durdin, he was perfectly willing to give, but the only explanation I asked

him he did not give—I did not put to him a single question as to his transactions with Durdin—I told him at the bank that I did not want an explanation.

ROBERT STAGEY PRICE . I am one of the directors of the Commercial Bank—Mark Hunter is one of the trustees—in consequence of information I received, I went to 9, Park Village East, Regent's-park, on a Saturday, and found Durdin there, in his bed-room—we were introduced by Mrs. Durdin—we found him in his armchair, very feeble, and rather overcome from seeing us—Mr. Wentworth, the other director, said, "Mr. Durdin, I presume you can imagine the object we have in coming to see you?"—he did not speak, but bowed assent—I then said, "Durdin, we have come to ascertain what you have done with the large amount of property you have taken from the bank, and what securities you hold at the present moment" he said that he had been engaged in building speculations; that he had taken sums from the bank to the amount of 66, 992l. 7s. 8d.—I asked him where these speculations had been carried on—he said in Westbourne-square, and some streets adjacent, the names of which he could not exactly re member—I asked him where the title deeds of the property were—he said they had been mortgaged for between 32,000l. and 33,000l., and were in the hands of his solicitor, but he would send me the particulars on the following day, Monday, and was willing to make all the amends he could, and give all the particulars—I asked him what further securities he had—he went to his cash-box and took out various papers, amongst which were six promissory notes signed by Holcroft, and fourteen cheques—these (produced) are they—twelve of the cheques have various sums of money introduced into the body of the cheque, but are without date—they are all signed James Holcroft; all are undated, and two are entirely blank—I believe they amount to 885l. 18s. 4d.

Cross-examined by MR. BESLEY. Q. Can you tell us the amount of the promissory notes handed to you? A. 6,090l. 18s. 1d.—he indorsed them in my presence, and at my request—the effect of that indorsement is to make them valid if there were any effects in the hands of Holcroft—I thought it necessary that he should indorse them, but with what ulterior object I am not prepared to say—I left with the understanding that next day I was to have further particulars sent me of the money he had expended on the buildings in Westbourne-square and the street adjacent, the state they were in, how far they were mortgaged, and the sum that was mortgaged—I wanted to ascertain how much to recover for the bank—I certainly gave him no impression that we did not intend to prosecute him—I was careful not to excite him, for his health appeared such, that I thought he would hardly live throughout the day, therefore what forbearance I exercised was entirely out of regard for the man's position—I think Mrs. Durden came in, and I merely asked him if that was his wife—I asked him whether she knew of it, and he answered, "No"—I did not say it was as well she did not—I asked him who she was, because I did not know whether she was a servant or whether she was his wife—I took away the cheques also.

Cross-examined by MR. HAWKINS. Q. Did you know Holcroft? A. No—my knowledge of his name was entirely acquired in that interview with Durdin—I did not inquire who Holcroft was, upon seeing these six notes representing 6,000l. odd and this cheque representing 8,000l.—I saw Holcroft's address, "Hatton-garden, "on the notes—I left that for future inquiries—I did not go to Holcroft or make the least inquiry of him personally—I think Durdin said that Holcroft did not know anything at all about

it—the list of property which he said had been mortgaged was brought in the morning by Mr. Ramsay—I have not made any inquiry about it personally—I have satisfied myself about it being mortgaged through the medium of our solicitor or surveyor, to the extent of 33,000l.—the money had been expended in the name of a man named Ramsay, who had mortgaged it—I made no inquiry about who Ramsay was, but he is known to the bank as having formerly kept an account there—I know that by repute, not of my own knowledge—Ramsay called at the bank and saw his solicitor and myself; but, by the instructions of our solicitor, I did not enter into any particulars with him—I only saw him that once, and do not know whether I should recognise him again—I understand that this money has been expended through Ramsay—there has been no charge made against him and no inquiry made of him by me—he rendered the account himself, and our solicitor and surveyor made the necessary inquiries.

ROBERT MACKENZIE (Police-inspector, M). On 20th February, between 8 and 9 o'clock, I accompanied Mr. Chauncey to Durdin'a house—I found him in a chair in his bedroom—I found on him one of Holcroft's business cards, with some figures written on the back of it—I asked him what it related to—he said he could not tell me now—I asked him where he had seen Holcroft last—he said the previous morning, the 19th—I and Inspector Felton searched his house—I saw Felton find a large pocket-book in which there was a pass-book of Durden's with the Deposit Bank in the City, this cheque-book (produced), and a memorandum-Book with some papers relating to mining shared—next morning, the 21st, about 9 o'clock, I went to Holcroft's residence; I found him there—I said, "Your name is Holcroft"—he said, "Yes"—I said, "You were at the Commercial Bank?"—he said, Yes"—I said, "Will you allow me to have the pass-book and cheques?"—he took out a key and gave me them—I was in plain clothes—I opened the pass-Book, turned over the leaves, and referred to a sum of 1, 149l. 6s. 1d. on 14th January, 1861, to his credit—I said, "There is some mistake in this entry, can you explain it?"—he said, "No, I cannot"—I said, "Would you be good enough to walk with me to the Commercial Bank, in Hen-rietta-street?"—he said, "Yes"—on getting there I saw Mr. Chauncey, the manager, and said to him, "This is Mr. Holcroft; probably he will explain to you the sum you mentioned to me last night"—Mr. Chauncey read from a piece of paper he had—he said, "Mr. Holcroft, you are charged with the sum of 66l. 9s. 11d. on 3d. January, 1861, the sum of 156l. 8s. 9d. on 7th January, and 149l. 6s. 1d. on the 14th; those sums have been placed to your credit, and you have drawn upon them; can you. explain that?"—MR. HAWKINS objected that these three sums had nothing to do with the present charge, being all subsequent to it; MR. GIFFARD contended that although they there not the sums in the indictment, yet they referred to them, and therefore were not irrelevant. The Court admitted the evidence.) Holcroft said, "No, I cannot"—Mr. Chauncey said, "Then I will give you in charge for stealing these sums, in conjunction with the prisoner Durdin; take him in custody"—Holcroft begged not to be given in charge—he said, "I have nothing further to do with it"—I took him to the Bow-street police-station, where he asked me if I would send for Mr. Chauncey, as he wished to speak to him—I said, "He will be here in a very few minutes"—he arrived; and Holcroft said, "Oh, Mr. Chauncey, this is a very sad affair; I have known Mr. Durdin twelve or fourteen years; I was in semi-partnership with a person who conducted a business in the City, and we exchanged each other's cheques, and drew upon them"—Mr. Chauncey said, "That does not explain

why you should take money from the Commercial Bank that does not belong to you"—he said, "Well, Sir, I will tell you all; Mr. Durdin used to send me a piece of paper with a number upon it, and I used to draw upon that*—Mr. Chauncey said, "That does not explain the matter to me," and left the station—I asked the name of the gentleman, and Holcroft said he did not think he ought to tell that, it would not Be fair to tell—that was all that passed—I went to Holcroft's house, and found five small account-books in the counting-house at the back, and some counterfoils of some used cheques, also these four cheque-books, partially used, and a quantity of other papers, amongst which there is a pass Book—I produce Durdin's pass book from the deposit bank in Cannon-street—this is another cheque-book of a Mr. Brown, of Cannon-street.

Cross-examined by MR. BESLEY. Q. You understood that that part of the conversation as to the semi-partnership had no reference to Durdin? A. No.

Cross-examined by MR. HAWKINS. Q. Did you find some Bills of exchange! A. Yes—I have not pulled them out of the bag, because they were never called for before—I have not counted them—I took them at the same time—they have never been called for in evidence in any shape—I think here are twenty of them—Mrs. Holcroft gave them to me—I asked her if she had any other papers; and she said, "I have got these bills of exchange"—there was nothing concealed at Holcroft's—everything I asked for was given me, as for as I know—there was not a single document concealed for a second, when I was there; but Mrs. Holcroft was not there the whole of the time—her brother and herself gave me everything I asked for—I had not the slightest knowledge of any bills of exchange till they were given to me—I do not know what books there were—I took the books myself—these were the only things that were given to me—I had no warrant to search—I did not see any of the pieces of paper Holcroft told me Durden had sent with numbers on—I was asked that question by Mr. Chauncey—I have looked through the other bills, and the solicitor for the prosecution, I think carefully examined them—here are nearly the whole of the bills drawn and accepted by Holcroft—I think we went through them carefully—I do not pretend to say whether the whole of them are drawn or accepted by Holcroft, because I did not examine them minutely—I have not added them up—there are other documents which have not been produced at all—here are a quantity of tradesmen's small bills in his trade as a shoemaker—I have examined them—they have no bearing on this case—there is nothing else in the bag; in fact, Mr. A Brahams has had copies of everything for the defence—I first took Holcroft to Mr. Chauncey at the Commercial Bank—I did not tell Mr. Chauncey that Holcroft wanted to speak to him—I walked in with him and said, "Here is Mr. Holcroft"—I do not remember saying to Mr. Chauncey, "He wants to speak to you"—on my oath I did not—I will not swear that I said nothing of the sort—I will not swear that he did not offer to give Mr. Chauncey, at the bank, every explanation that was required, with reference to his dealings with Durdin—I was present at the station, and nothing of the kind took place there in my presence—what passed with Mr. Chauncey must have been heard by me—he, neither at the bank nor at the station, offered to give any explanation with regard to his dealings with Durden.

COURT. Q. Do you mean that there was nothing said about giving explanations? A. Nothing in my presence—he did not say, "I will give you no explanation"—I was not with him all the time—I had him in charge—I was at the bank at the time—I heard all that passed at the interview

with Mr. Chauncey, and at the station I was also present—I will pledge my oath that nothing passed—I cannot charge my memory that anything took place about explanations, but I should say not—I cannot remember any circumstance of the sort, but will not swear that there was not—I give the conversation entirely from my memory—I cannot recollect any circumstance of that nature—my memory is as accurate to the other parts of the conversation as it is to this—I do not remember Mr. Chauncey saying at the bank, "I suppose you know your position"—my memory is blank about that—I did not hear Holcroft say, "I really do not know what you mean"—I do not recollect anything of the sort—I am perfectly clear of all that took place at the bank, and no such observation as that came from Holcroft at the bank or at the station—of that I am positive—Mr. Chauncey said nothing to him before the Magistrate as to who he was in semi-partnership with—it was I—Holcroft volunteered a statement in the Bank about the three sums—Mr. Chauncey did not put a question to him in the station—I put no question to him at all at the station.

MR. POLAND. Q. You mentioned something about a subsequent-interview? A. Yes; but I was not present—he was in the hands of other officers—I had been away—there was a time when Mr. Chauncey saw Holcroft when I was not present—in Holcroft's pass-book with the Commercial Bank, which I found, there were these seventeen returned cheques (produced).

THOMAS WATSON . I am an accountant, of Moorgate-chambers, City—I know Holcroft—I only saw Durdin once before he was at the police-court—I recognise him now—I saw Holcroft on 30th August, at his house in Hatton-garden—he merely consulted me on his affairs—I saw him again on 31st August, and the interview was put off till Monday, 1st September—I went through his books on 3d September—I found no entry there of the name of Durdin as a creditor—I went again on 4th September—I was waiting for Holcroft and Durdin, and a man named Ramsay came in, upon which Holcroft put me off—on 13th September I was making out a list of Holcroft's creditors from his ledger and from his own mouth—Holcroft only mentioned Durdin's name to. me once,—I think that was before 13th September—he said that he was a friend of his and a large creditor, and he did not want him put down in the list of creditors which I was preparing for the Court, as he was a very good friend of his, and he wished to keep him, and help him when he got through his difficulties, and that it would injure Durdin's position at the bank perhaps—he also said that he depended on Durdin to pay his composition—I knew at that time that Durdin was a clerk in the Commercial Bank, but not before that—on 22d September I saw Holcroft again—I called to arrange, and to find a list of creditors, so that he might get his protection renewed at the Court—I advised him to put every creditor down—I had the list so that I might send notices to them—Durdin's name was not down in that list—(The proceedings in Bankruptcy were here put in by John Wright)—this is the list I furnished—Durdin's name is not mentioned in it—I wrote a letter on the 18th and posted it, or sent it by one of my clerks, declining to act for Holcroft, and I did not act any further.

Cross-examined by MR. HAWKINS Q. Was it on 4th September that Durden and Ramsey went to Holcroft? A. Yes; that was in Hatton-garden—I went up stairs there—it is a large house, but there was no extravagant living; anything but that—there was a great deal of economy—there was a boot and shoe establishment down stairs in the shop—I do not know whether the first-floor was let—it was the second floor I went to, and the kitchen—that was, as far as I know, the only part of the house occupied by Holcroft—I

was in the shop on the 4th—when Durdin and Ramsay came in, they sent up for Holcroft and he came down—Mrs. Holcroft was in the shop I think—they went up stairs together—that is all that occurred, and that is what I construe into putting me off—I did not wait any longer, I put myself off—I did not ask whether I was to wait any longer, I was told I need not—I do not recollect anything that was said by Durdin or Ramsay—I learned that Durdin was to provide the composition—I went through his ledger and his trade ledgers for a considerable number of years—he was doing a good trade, and not a mere sham trade—I have never said that it was a sham trade merely—it is very doubtful whether he sold on commission—he said that he had one or two persons who he sold on commission for—they were Northampton people—Mr. Gardner was the principal—he owed him a large sum—I was not able to judge of the cause of Holcroft's failure—I did toot make inquiry into that—I cannot tell from his books—I had no occasion to look through them to ascertain—there was nothing in them to show where any considerable sum had gone—there was nothing But matters connected with his trade—I saw nothing of any speculations I did not find in his books, losses to a considerable amount in bad debts, because I had no occasion to go into it—I did not look to see, and cannot tell the there there were or not—I looked for the liabilities, not for the amount of his assets—I did not endeavour to inquire—it was not part of my duty—Mr. Paul, I believe, succeeded me as his accountant—he was, I believe, introduced through Mr. Ramsey—I was not displeased, but I declined acting not thinking he was doing: that which was right for himself—that was after Paul had been introduced—I had not said a word before that about declining to act.

JOHN WRIGHT . I am one of the ushers of the Court of Bankruptcy—I produce the proceedings in Holcroft's Bankruptcy—it is the private arrangement—the petition is dated 5th September, 1860—it is a petition under the private arrangement clause—upon that 200l. was paid in on 5th September I believe—at all events, I see 180l. has been returned—the petition was afterwards dismissed, all the creditors being satisfied.

JOHN PAUL . I am one of the firm of Paul and Turner, accountants, of Coleman-street—I know Holcroft—he was introduced to me by a person named Ramsay—I went through his books; but never heard by that, or by his statement, of a creditor named Durdin—Holcroft told me that it was necessary to trace certain bills which had been discounted, and were in the hands of third parties—I asked him for the names of the holders; he said that they were in the hands of a particular friend of his, who held a high commercial position, and he had rather his name was not mentioned—I saw the creditors, and obtained their consent for the composition—I afterwards went to the clerk to Messrs. Lawrence and Plews, and paid the composition—the bills of which he was holder amounted to about 600l., among which was one for 170l. drawn by Holcroft and Millard, on 29th October—I got that partially from Holcroft's statement.

MR. HAWKINS. Q. Did you get it from Mr. Holcroft's lips? A. From his lips, and from the bill-book—it has from the Bill-Book; but I had it from his lips where the bill was—the particulars of the Bill I got from the bill-book.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. Did he tell you whether any of those were accommodation bills, or what did he say? A. He said that they were in the hands of a particular friend of his, and he did not wish his name to be mentioned in the matter—he did not tell me whether they were accommodation bills, or trade bills.

THOMAS DYSON . I am cashier in the Henrietta-street branch of the Commercial Bank—I know both the prisoners—I have known Durdin twelve or thirteen years, ever since he has been in the bank—I have been in the habit of seeing Holcroft there, for some years—during October, November, and December last, he has come to get his pass-book himself three or four times a week—the Bank returns the cheques in the pocket in the usual way—these six promissory notes are in Holcroft's writing, and these fourteen cheques also—this (produced) is the ledger containing Holcroft's account in 1860 and 1861—it was opened on 1st October, 1860, with what is credited as "Cash, 138l. 12s. 6d."—that entry is in Durdin's writing—it is carried over from the apparent balance of Holcroft and Co.—here is 15l. 7s. 6d." entered on 1st October, and 38l. 10s. on 2d. October, in Durdin's writing—all the entries on that page are Durdin's, and up to the 29th—on the debit side, I find 185l. on the 18th, and 150l. on the 19th—they are in the same writing—all the debits are in Durdin's writing—I should say that this amount to the account of Holcroft and Co., from which the 138l. has been brought forward as a credit, is in Durden's writing; but it is a little different—the credits entered from time to time for several pages appear to be in Durdin's writing—he was ledger-keeper, and would, in the ordinary course of business, be the keeper of that particular account—I have got the paying cash-book here, in which we keep an account of those customers who bring cheques to the bank—it is partially kept by me—they are cheques presented at the counter, and bills—the greater part of it is in my writing; I think nearly all—I find, from an entry in this book, that on 18th October, I cashed a cheque for 185l., drawn by James Holcroft—I paid him in banknotes; a 100l., a 50l., a 20l., a 10l., and a 5l.—the number of the 100l. note was 34,318—we have not the dates in this book, merely the numbers—I can get the dates by the waste-book—the 50l. note was No. 16,126; the 20l. note, No. 00,530; the 10l. No. 91,405; and the 5l. No. 16,794—on 19th October, I also cashed a cheque for 150l., drawn by Holcroft—I want another book for that this is it—the paying books are alternate days—I paid with a 100l. note, No. 25,482, and a 50l., No. 57,836—on 29th October, I cashed a cheque, drawn by Holcroft, for 86l. 11s. 6d.—it was paid short, with a 50l. Note, No. 51,136; a 20l. note, No. 99,590; a 10l. note, No. 70,918; and a 5l., No. 00,027—they are looking for the book by which I can tell the dates—I have seen Holoroft's pass-book—as far as credits go they are copied from the ledger—the debits are copied from the cheques themselves—they are written in from the vouchers then, unless there is some entry in the cash-book, or a paying slip—a person cannot get the fact anywhere but from the cash-book—the ledger-keeper never sees the paying-in slip at all—I have got some of the dates here—the note 34,318, is dated 19th May, 1860—there is a witness here who can give you the numbers better than I can; I mean Mr. Glegg, the accountant.

Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. Q. You say the first entry was made in the cash-Book? A. Yes; the ledger-keeper takes the particulars from the cash-Book—the entry is made from the cash-book into the ledger—the slip is placed on a file, by the party who places it in the waste-book—he makes an entry corresponding with the total on the slip—there is a waste-hook for both purposes; for that, and for the dates of paid cheques—the slips are sorted, placed on a large file, kept for months, and then destroyed—the waste-book is kept—we have them all—they are chequed by two of the clerks daily—if Durdin took the cash, and made an entry in the cash-book, he would not be the person to enter it in the ledger also—such a thing might occur, but it would not be the ordinary practice.

COURT. Q. I understand that when a customer comes, he ought to come with an abstract on a slip? A. Yes; which we should fill—the first entry of this kind is in the cash-Book, and the whole particulars are in the waste-book—the different ledger-keepers take out the different sums of cash according to the accounts which they have in their ledger, and they are then placed into the ledger—the ledger-keeper, not being the person who receives the money, would net Be the person to take the slips.

MR. METCALFE. Q. Then what is done with the waste-Book after it is made out? A. The tallies in the waste-book are checked by the cash-book nightly, by two of the clerks in the office: no two in particular—the ledger is checked by the cash-book, by one of the ledger-keepers, and one of the other clerks—it is generally the same person who enters in the ledger who checks it—the ledger-keeper generally takes his own ledger, and some one else calls out from the cash-book—I am not aware whether there is any audit to the accounts; but the manager will tell you—I believe this 60,000l. runs over some years—I am not able to say when the last date was, but the manager will tell you—most of the customers' books are balanced every three months—the calendars come after the ledger—they contain an abstract of the balance taken from the ledger—each ledger-keeper makes a calendar from the balance in his ledger, and there is a general statement made out from the calendars containing the total of the whole, by one of the ledgerkeepers.

WILLIAM TINGEY . I am a warehouseman, of No. 194, Tottenham-court-road—I know both the prisoners—I first saw Durden about three, four, or five years since, when I kept an account at the Commercial Bank, as a clerk there—I saw Holcroft in the month of October last—my clerk saw Durdin; I did not see him myself—that was not upon the subject of an advance by me of 750l. upon the security of Durdin's furniture—I never spoke to Holcroft in reference to that—my services were requested by Mr. Ramsay—Durdin afterwards executed a Bill of sale for 750l.

SAMUEL FRANKLIN . I am the attesting witness to that Bill of sale (produced)—I saw Durdin execute it—this was dated 19th October, 1860—The recital was read as follows:—" Whereas the said mortgagor hath applied and requested the said mortgagee to advance him the sum of 750l. which he hath consented to do upon security for the repayment thereof as here in after mentioned."

WILLIAM TINGEY (recalled). I advanced him 132l. 5s. 6d.—on the same date, 19th October, I received from Mr. Ramsay 155l. in notes—I paid those notes into the London and County Bank, Oxford-street Branch, the next day—on the 20th, I gave Mr. Ramsay a cheque for 255l.—I received 155l. in notes the day before as part of the cheque, and I received some bills as security for the extra 100l.—they were returned to Mr. Ramsay—they were drawn by Holcroft upon some of his customers—Ramsay had the bank notes in his pocket—he said he was going home and did not want to take them, and he said "Take care of these for me"—132l. 5s. 6d. was the amount advanced afterwards—I do not think it was the same day; I think it was the next day.

Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. Q. Was the 100l. you spoke of lent upon the security of Holcrof's Bills? A. It was—the amount of 132l. 5s. 6d. advanced upon the Bill of sale, was not returned the next day—that has never been returned except through Mr. Ramsay, a short time since—I was to have advanced 750l. upon the bill of sale, but Durdin asked that it should not Be registered; and as it would not be a good security, I did not carry out the advance—I advanced the 100l. upon Holcroft's bills.

Cross-examined by MR. HAWKINS. Q. This bill of sale was effected through Ramsay, was it not? A. Yes; the 155l. had nothing at all to do with the bill of sale—the 132l. 5s. 6d. which was lent upon the bill of sale has since been returned by Ramsay—Ramsay said the object of Durdin's wishing to borrow the 750l. upon the bill of sale was to pay a composition to Holcrof's creditors—he said Holcroft was largely inde Bted to Durdin, and that Durdin thought the best way of getting any return was by starting Holcroft again in business—the reason the whole 750l. was not advanced was, that I had not gone into the security to see whether it was sufficient and before doing that, Ramsay said Durdin did not wish the Bill of sale to be registered—I said, "In that case I cannot advance the money"—he had guaranteed the payment of the 750l.—Ramsay was going home on the 19th,. and said he had got 155l. in his pocket, which he did not want to carry, and he could not pay it into the bank—I gave him a cheque the next day for 255l. including that and the 100l. loan—it was the 132l. loan upon the bill of sale—the bills of Holcroft I got were some trade Bills of his; I think about 300l. worth—I do not recollect the names of any of the parties to them—I have seen a great many, but could not distinguish them—they were produced by Ramsay and left with me—I had only seen Holcroft once before—I had only had one transaction with him; I think it was about a week or ten days previously; it was an advance upon some boots—it was 100l.—I am not sure that it was not 200l.—I had discounted bills for Mr. Ramsay before; I have also taken Mr. Durdin's guarantee on account of those bills—I did this for a period of six or nine months, before September, 1860—I suppose, to a great many of those bills, Holcroft was a party—they were his draughts on his customers—I have discounted for Mr. Ramsay for a very long period—I have had a great many of Holcroft's bills—I think I began to discount Holcroft's bills in 1855—Mr. Ramsay told me that he had received them from Durdin, who had discounted them for Holcroft—that appears to have been from 1855—my transactions with him have been for four or five years—I could not identify any of the bills upon which I made the advance of 100l.—I should think there might be from ten to a dozen bills upon which I made that advance; they generally averaged from 20l. to 50l. each.

VIVIAN BENSON'PEARCE . I am a boot maker, and live at Norwood-green—on the 19th or 20th of October, I believe I received from Mr. Tingey a 90l. cheque and 100l. note—I gave the 100l. note to my clerk, Mr. Perry, to pay in to my account at the Unity Bank—I do not know the number of the note.

GEORGE HENRY PERRY . I am clerk to Mr. Pearce—on the 20th October, I received from him 190l. to pay into the bank—there was a 100l. note and a 90l. cheque—I paid them into Mr. Pearce's account, with the Unity Bank, Leicester square—I made out a credit slip, and gave it to the cashier.

FREDERICK ROWLEY BLUETT . I am accountant to the Western Branch of the Unity Bank, Leicester-square—Mr. Pearce keeps an account there—on the 20th October, I received on his account a 100l. note, No. 25,482, 19th May, 1800.

WILLIAM TINGEY (re-called). Besides what I have mentioned, I received a 100l. note from Ramsay, to take up a bill which Durdin had guaranteed; that was on the same day, the 19th of October—it was part of a guarantee of 300l.—I gave the guarantee to Mr. Ramsay to return to Durdin—I gave the 100l. note to Mr. Vivian Benson Pearce.

CHARLES MEACOCK . I am cashier at the Oxford-street branch of the London and County Bank—on the 20th October, I received 480l. 16s. 1d.

from Mr. Tingey, or his clerk, to be placed to his credit—I produce the credit slip—part of the money consisted of a 100l. note, No. 34,318 19th May, 1860; and a 20l. note, No. 530, 21st September, 1860; also three 10l. notes, Nos. 3,281, 3,282, and 3,263, dated 24th July, 1860—on the same day, the 20th October, I cashed a cheque for 255l. of Mr. Tingey's, with two 100l. notes, No. 29,226, 19th May, 1860, and No. 29,224 of the same date—there was a 50l. note, No. 59,152, and a 5l. note—I have not the cheque here; it was returned to Mr. Tingey with him pass-book—the cheque was payable to Mr. Ramsay.

COURT TO THOMAS DYSON . Q. You have given us the number and date of that 100l. note, what was the 50l. note on the same day? A. No. 16,126,20th June, 1860; the 20l. was No. 530, 21st September, 1860; the 10l. was No 31,945, 22d August; a 5l. note, No. 16,794, 11th May—there is a 100l. note, No. 25,482 19th May; a 50l. note, No. 57,836, 20th June; a 50l. note, No. 51,136, 20th June; a 20l. note, No. 99,590, 21st June; a 10l. note, No. 70,918, 27th August; and a 5l. note, No. 00,027, 25th July.

FREDERICK PEARSON . I am a clerk in the Bank of England—on 26th October I changed two Bank notes for Messrs. Lawrance. Plews, and Boyer, the solicitors—one was a 100l. note No. 29,226, dated 19th May, 1860; the other was a 50l. note, No. 57,836, 20th June, 1860—I gave in change five 10l. notes, No. 63,086 to 63,090, dated 22d August; five 20l. notes, No. 25,511 to 25,515.

FREDERIC EDWARD CROWTHER . I am a clerk in the office of Messrs Lawrance, Plews, and Boyer, of Old Jewry—I know the prisoner Holcroft, but only from his coming to the office in the matter of his petition in the Court of Bankruptcy—about the 16th or 17th October he called at the office and requested that some one from the office should go to Northampton to pay a composition to his creditors—I do not think I asked him at that time when I could have the money, but I did a day or two afterwards—he said it should be brought either that day or the following; that would be the 18th or 19th—he came to me on the 19th and said he had not got the money that day, but it should be ready the following day, Saturday, the 20th—I said I should be prepared to go to Northampton—I do not think anything particular passed as to the time I should have the money—he said he should get it in the morning—there was no arrangement made as to any particular hour I was to go down—I do not remember that I said anything to him that I was to have the money early—I merely said that he was to bring it on Saturday—I think something was said that if it was brought late in the afternoon I should not go down, because I should have to go down late at night and not pay the creditors—he said I should have it in time—on the following day, Saturday, the 20th, Mr. Ramsay came to me and gave me 720l. to pay the composition to Holcroft's creditors—I went to Northampton on the Monday, to pay the creditors, who signed the deed—I have the deed with me—I attested the execution of the deed by the creditors—the 720l. was all in bank notes—I did not pay among other creditors, Mr. Martin Alexander Ecklemanuboeme—I paid all the creditors that were paid in Northampton—some I paid to the Union Bank, Northampton—he is a clerk at the bank—I paid the bank—he did not sign the deed—whatever is his name I paid him—I paid the Union Bank—I do not know the amount I paid them—I paid the composition on the bills they held—what I paid I paid in the notes I received from Mr. Ramsay—I paid Mr. William Gardner in London, on 7th November—I paid that out of the same sum—I paid Mr.

James Weather all out of the same notes—I also paid Mr. Stranger and Mr. Hollister; Mr. Hayward I did not pay.

Q. Is he a clerk to Mr. Cannon? A. Mr. Hayward, the official assignee's clerk—yes, I paid him—I changed two notes at the Bank of England—those were two of the notes I got from Mr. Ramsay—I do not know what those notes were—these (produced) are two of the notes I received from Mr. Ramsay—they are Nos. 57,836 and 29,226—the produce of those I paid to Holcroft's creditors.

MARTIN ALEXANDER ECKLEMANN BOEME . I am chief cashier in the Union Bank, Northampton—on 22d October I received from Mr. Crowther, the last witness, 160l. in bank notes—it was part in payment of a dividend of Holcroft's, and part of another party—80l. of it was for Mr. Gardner, and 80l. for Mr. Josiah Bontems—in that 160l. there was a 100l. note—the 160l. was paid on account of Holcroft for two creditors, part Belonging to Mr. Gardner and part to Mr. Bantams—there was a 100l. note, No. 29,224, dated 19th May, 1860; a 50l. note was No. 59,956,20th January, 1860; and a 10l. note, No. 77,749, 24th July, 1860.

JAMES WEATHERALL . I am a leather merchant, at Northampton—I was a creditor under the estate of the prisoner Holcroft—I held his acceptances—on 22d October last I received 75l. from Mr. Crowther, clerk of Messrs. Lawiance, Plews, and Boyer—that was a composition of 4s. in the pound upon the Bills 1 held—it was paid in a 50l. note, a 20l. note, and a 5l. note all Bank of England notes—on 24th October I remitted the 50l. note, and the 20l. note to Mr. William Threw, of London—I sent it in that letter (produced).

WILLIAM THEW . I am a leather factor, of No. 1, Bury-street, St. MaryAxe and at Leadenhall-market—on 25th October last I received two Bank of England notes in a letter from Mr. James Weatherall, of Northampton—one was this 50l. note, No. 62,126, dated 20th June—I put Mr. Weathrall's name and my initials on it (produced)—Mr. Weatheralls name and my initials are on that note.

WILLIAM GARDNER . I am a shoe manufacturer, living at Welling Borough, Northampton—Holcroft was an agent of mine—he ceased to be so about the month of August in last year—I have occasionally seen him in London—I have sometimes accompanied him to the Commercial Bank—he said he was going to see Durdin, to see if he could lend him some money or do anything for him—I have seen them talk together at the end of the Bank—I have never heard what they said—at the end of August Holcroft owed me over 1,600l.

Q. Did he ever say anything to you about that time, as to your knowledge, of his being acquainted with Durdin? A. We had a few words, and he said, "I hope, Gardner, whatever this affair may come to, you will never say anything about me and Durdin"—I said, "I do not know what you mean"—he said, "No, you don't"—I received my composition, 150l. 14s. 9d. from Mr. Crowther—the greater part of that was iu Bank notes—I paid the Bank notes so received into my account with the Northampton Union Bank—I received my composition in London at Mr. Paul's office—Holcroft was present when I received my composition—there was a disagreement between us as to the amount of the composition; it was about 20l. Balance of a Bill, and he said if I would go with him to his house he would give me a cheque for 16l., which he did—that cheque was made payable to a number—I think it was No. 120, but I am not certain—I did not pay it in with the notes—he asked me to stop it for a week or two—he said he was very short of money—it was afterwards paid in, and not returned.

Cross-examined by MR. HAWKINS. Q. How long have you known Hoi croft? A. Well, I cannot say exactly; I should think about twelve or thir-teen years—I have dealt with him all that time in my way of Business—I have dealt largely with him the latter part of the time—during the thirteen years he has paid me some thousands in the way of trade—I knew beside that he was carrying on Business largely with other persons—he has been carrying on Bona fide Business transactions during the last twelve or thirteen years—I do not recollect what led up to the conversation I have referred to—we were talking about his affairs—I asked him what he meant to do, whether he meant to pay so much in the pound—we had not been talking about Durdin—he said he must wait and see his friends before he could make an offer—I believe he mentioned Durdin's name as one of his friend—I cannot exactly say whether he mentioned Durdin as one of the person to whom he was going to apply for assistance.

Q. Did he tell you he thought he should Be able to get assistance From Durdin, one of the clerks in the Commercial Bank, when he made use of those words? A. I cannot say whether he paid Durdin; but he said see his friends—I cannot say whether Durdin's name was mentioned—he might have mentioned Durdin's name in the course of the conversation.

Q. Did he mention Durdin's name as one of the persons he was going to apply to for the purpose of getting assistance to pay the composition? A. I cannot say that he mentioned him alone—I do not recollect whether he mentioned anybody's name or not—he said he should see his friends, and he could not say what he should offer until he had seen his friends—I do not recollect whether or not, in the course of that conversation, he mentioned Durdin's name—I cannot say what it was that preceded the conversation up to those words, "I hope, Gardner, whatever this affair may come to, you will never say anything about me aud Durdin"—he was very much excited at the time—I cannot tell what we were talking about at that time—I took very little notice of it.

Q. Did he not tell you, in the course of that conversation, that Durdin was holding an appointment at the Bank, and he would not like it known that he was giving money assistance? A. 1 cannot say whether he did; he knew that I knew Durdin was in the Bank—I will not say he did not say that; he might have said it—I do not recollect whether he said any thing after he made use of those words—I believe I left—I went away and thought no more of it—I had my debt with him to look after.

Q. Did he or not say anything about Durdin holding an appointment in the Bank, and would not like it known that he was tendering assistance? A. I believe he did say that to me previously to that—I cannot say he said it that day; I do not think he did—I knew that Durdin had been rendering him assistance for years—I believe he had discounted Bills for him for years—I do not know whether to a large amount or not.

Q. You knew he had been discounting Bills with him for years, pretty nearly since you dealt with him? A. I do not know, I am sure—I did not know anything about Durdin—when I first knew anything about him, was, I should think, about eight or nine years ago—I had seen Holcroft's pass Book—he had shown me that—my transactions with him for the last few years have been heavy, something like 400l. or 500l. a year, I think—I had been to Holcroft's house—I had heard that Mrs. Holcroft was employed a good deal as a lecturer—I believe Holcroft was a man who attended pretty well to his Business—I never knew of his speculating at all—I never knew him engage in anything except legitimate trade—as far as I knew, he appeared to be a hard-working, industrious man—his house in Hatton-garden was very

moderately carried on; it was a very small esta Blishment—there never seemed to be anything extravagant at all—they kept a servant, a young girl—they occupied the second-floor—a lodger lived in the first-floor—Durdin did not discount any Bills for me—I do not remember that I handed them to Holcroft and asked him to get them discounted for me—I did not that I know of—I have never done so to the extent of some hundred Bills—I have never had my Bills discounted through Holcroft; nor any Bills in my possession; nor any Bills endorsed to me—I have accepted Bills for Holcroft once or twice; twice I think—he asked me to accept Bills for him—I did not know who discounted them—I do not know whether he said Durdin would "do" them for him—I had Bills of this sort three or four years since—I cannot say exactly how long it is ago.

Cross-examined by MR. BESLEY. Q. I understand you know nothing of the transactions between Durden and Holcroft, except what Holcroft has stated to you? A. No; all the evidence I have given with regard to the discounting has been hearsay evidence; Holcroft's statement, not Durden's.

MR. GIFPARD. Q. As to the Bills you accepted for Holcroft, who got the money? A. He had it—I knew Holcroft when he was foreman to Mr. Westley—I do not know what his position was there, whether it was a weekly servant or what he had—he was a Book-keeper, I believe—I have heard him say that he had money from Durdin; Borrowed money of Durdin—it is some years since I first heard him say that—I cannot say how many years; I should think eight or ten—I do not know of his being in partnership with any one—he owed me 1,600l. at the end of August—I should think my transactions with him in the course of that year would be from 4,000l. to 5,000l.

CHARLES PELL . I am a clerk in the Union Bank, Northampton—I received, on 10th November, on behalf of Mr. Gardner, 165l. in Bank notes—there were among them three 10l. notes—two of them were numbered 63,086 and 63,087 and both dated 22d August 1860—there were four 20l. notes, Nos, 25,511 to 25,514.

JAMES MILLARD . I keep a shoe shop, at No. 526, Oxford-street—I have known Holcroft since 1848—he was then in the service of Mr. Westley, Bartlett's-Building, a wholesale shoe warehouse—I have been in the habit of giving accommodation acceptances to Holcroft—that has been about eighteen or twenty months—I do not think it has extended to two years—there was an acceptance of mine for 170l., due the 29th of October last—that was lying due at the Charles-street Branch of the London and Westminster Bank—that was a renewed Bill—a few days before it Became due I called upon Holcroft, at his shop in Hatton-garden—I asked him how the Bill was to be met—he said something about it should Be renewed for 150l.—I was to give another acceptance for 150l. for him to get discounted in order to pay the other one—I refused to do so—after some conversation, I gave my acceptance for 95l. 18s.—I left that acceptance with Holcroft—he said he would go to the City on the first occasion, to get the money—on the following day I called upon him—he said he had not succeeded in getting the money—that was the money for the 95l. 18s. Bill—I went down again in the afternoon or following day and he said that I was to meet him at the Commercial Bank, Henrietta-street, Covent-garden—there was an appointment made, and I went at the time mentioned—I was a little after the time—when I got there I saw Holcroft inside the Bank—I waited outside for him—after a short time he came out—he said he should have to go to Mr. Ramsay's, at Garraway's—I wished to accompany him—when I got to King William-street, City, I missed him; it was in crossing the road—he crossed

first and that was how it occurred—in consequence of missing him I went to his house. it Hatton-garden—I waited until he came back—when he came back he I told me to go to Mr. Ramsay, at Garraway's, the next day—I think that was Saturday—I went there and saw Mr. Ramsay, and he said he would call upon me on Monday morning—I believe I was to see Mr. Ramsay about this Bill—I was to go to Holcroft at Hatton-garden as I returned from Garraway's after I had seen Mr. Ramsay I went to Hatton-garden—I told him I was disappointed; he had said before it would be all settled if I would go to Durdin at the Commercial Bank on Monday morning—I told him I was disappointed at not having the Bill arranged, because I supposed it was to have been arranged with Ramsay—then he told me if I went to the Bank on Monday I should get the money for this Bill—that was the 95l. 18s. Bill—I spoke to him, I think, about how the money was to be obtained to pay the 170l. Bill; I think he gave me a cheque for 25l., and told me to come down to Hatton-garden on Monday morning for the remainder—I had to go to Durdin as well—I went on Monday to the Commercial Bank and sat Durdin—saw the acceptance I had given for 95l. 18s. in his hand—on that occasion he gave me 93l. 10s.; that was all in Bank notes I should say except the odd money—before he gave me any money I saw a cheque in his hand.

HENRY SCOTTS . I am clerk to Messrs. Humphreys and Morgan, the solicitors for the prosecution—I served the notice to produce, of which I hold a copy in my hand, on both the prisoners and also on their solicitors. (This was a notice to produce a cheque for 86l. 0s. 5d. cashed on or about 9th October, 1860.)

JAMES MILLARD (continued). before Durden gave me the money I saw a cheque in his hands, signed "Holcroft &Co."—I saw him erase "Holcroft and Co." and write "James Holcroft"—he then gave it to the cashier, who after wards gave me the money—I did not notice the exact amount of the cheque—I paid the notes in that Durdin gave me to my account at the London and Westminster Bank, Charles-street Branch, with other monies amounting to 170l.—I got an acceptance for 170l.—I do not think I saw Holcroft that same day—I saw Mrs. Holcroft that day—I received 25l. from her; I believe in cash—I think I also received a cheque for 25l. from Holcroft, but that must have been on the Saturday—the cheque and money were to take up the 170l. Bill.

Cross-examined by MR. HAWKINS. Q. How long have you known Holcroft? A. Since 1848—I recollect him when he first commenced Business—I dealt with him from his first commencement in Business down to the last—my loss was very in considerable—when he first commenced Business my transactions with him were not large; they were rather small—they were probably about 700l. or 800l. yearly—I did not know from any conversation with him that he was obtaining assistance in loans—I first heard him speak of Durdin about last August or September—I never heard him speak of receiving assistance from anybody before then—I do not recollect anything of the kind—I was aware that he had Bills discounted—the first instance that I was aware where he got them discounted was I think by Mr. Clay—I never heard of his getting them discounted with the Commercial Bank, or anybody connected with that Bank—when in August or September I heard about Durdin, it was in the way of assisting Holcroft.

Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. Q. As to the cheque, you say the name was written out: was not what he did to make a memorandum against the name? A. Yes, it was to go to the account of James Holcroft—I should

have thought it very odd if he had written out the name: I should not have allowed the signature to be erased and another added if I had presented the cheque—Mr. Dyson was the cashier who paid him.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. After the cheque had anything done to it by Durdin, was it the same signature as before of "Holcroft & Co.?"A. No; "James Holcroft."

CHARLES FISHER . I am a clerk in the London and Westminster Bank Charles-street Branch—on the 29th of October last there was an acceptance for 170l. lying there, drawn by Holcroft and accepted by Millard—I received some Bank notes to take up that Bill—amongst those notes there was a 5 l. note, No. 16,794,11th May, 1860; a 5l. note, No. 38,578,28th August, 1860; a 50l. note, No. 51,136, 20th June, 1860; a 20l. note, No. 99,590, 21st June, 1860; a 10l. note, No. 70,918, 22d August, 1860; a 5l. note, No. 00,027, 23d July, 1860—I received other money with those, making alto gether 170l. for taking up the acceptance.

JOHN DUNHAM . I am a dealer in and retailer of Boots—I have shops in the Strand and Oxford-street—I know Holcroft—I have been with him to the Commercial Bank—we went there together; I sat there some four or five minutes on a form facing the counter—after sitting there some little time Holcroft got up, went to the counter, and received some money in notes—I did not see whether it was in return for a cheque—he simply made a statement to me there, that he was not without a pound now—the money he had given him consisted of notes—one was a 100l. note; I could not see the others because they were concealed by the first—I do not know who paid him—I cannot say whether it was Durdin—he told me he was going to pay a person with it—I think he mentioned the name, but I do not remember it—the person was to be paid under Gray's-inn gateway.

Cross-examined by Mr. Hawkins. Q. When was this? A. I cannot speak to the month; I think somewhere about six months ago—I met Holcroft by accident in Covent-garden—I cannot say whether the notes were exchanged for a cheque.

JAMES GLEGG . I am an accountant, and one of the firm of Quilter, Ball, Jay, & Co.—I have been employed to look through the Books of the Henrietta-street Branch of the Commercial Bank, including the ledger account kept by Durdin for the last ten years—I have compared the ledger entries with the cash-Book, which ought to show the payments made in the first instance—I have marked the entries in Durdin's ledger, in respect of which I can find no corresponding entry in the cash-Book—the total amount of false credits in the account of Holcroft & Co. which are not found in the cash-Book is 51,851l. 12s. 8d. consisting of 624 items.

Q. Now I assuming all to be false entries for which you can find no corresponding entries in the cash-Book, what would be the Balance against the customer, deducting those which for this purpose are called false credits, at the time of closing the account of Holcroft & Co.? A. That sum less 138l. 12s. 6d. viz. 51,700l. and odd—there was no credit of the account in October, 1860; on the contrary, there was 51,700l. overdue—to the end of the month of October, including the 29th, I find 1,238l. 1s. 3d.; the genuine credits during the same time (assuming that all the others are genuine) are 484l. 5s. 3d.—I found, by the identification of the notes, some instances of money going out of the Bank one day, and coming in upon another, and being credited as a real credit—the amount I have given you goes down from day to day, or at no greater intervals than a week—there are at least some false credits in every week.

Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. Q. How did you test the false credits? A. By comparing the ledger entries, and the entries in the cash-Book and the day-Book, or diary—I treat as a false credit whatever I find in the ledger that is not in the cash-Book or diary—I do not mean the waste-Book; I mean the short Bill diary—the account commences with only a small sum; 138l.—it commenced the 1st of October with a Balance of 138l. 12s. 6d.—the total amount of credits altogether, including the false entries, is 208,000l. and odd, extending from the 2d December, 1851 to the 12th February, 1861.

COURT. Q. How much of that is genuine? A. There is about 153,000l. not found in the cash-Book, but part of that is transferred from Durdin—the 153,000l. certainly do not represent genuine credits—they represent partly a transfer from Durdin, partly monies drawn out and paid in again, and partly genuine credits for account—the Bankers received money—what I mean by a false credit is an entry not founded upon an entry in any other Book—there are other entries which I found in the cash-Book which seem to have been put in the cash-Book to give a colour to the account—there were about 150,000l. genuine credits, and 55,000l. fictitious credits, subject to the explanation I have given—there are inaccuracies to the credits of the account of Holcroft, and the additions are made wrong to a large extent.

MR. GIFFARD to THOMAS DYSON. Q. Was there a man named Collins who lived at the Henrietta-street Branch? A. Yes; during the month of October; as messenger—he lived and slept there—he is here.

HENRY COLLINS . I slept in the month of October in the Henrietta-street Branch of the Bank.

Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. Q. In the Basement? A. No; I am a messenger.

JOSIAH WESTLEY . Holcroft was in my service previously to 1849—Be. left in 1849—I cannot recollect the salary he had—it was a very moderate one; not so much as 100l. a year.

Cross-examined by MR. HAWKINS. Q. Do you know whether, when he started in Business, he had some friends to assist him? A. I do not—I do not know who found the original capital for him to go into Business—after he left my service I had no communication with him at all—he was with me, I think, twelve months—I had known him before about twenty-five years—I never found him other than a respectable man.

MR. HAWKINS to ROBERT MACKENZIE. Q. Just open that Book you produced and see if you find some more Bills? A. Yes; there are three Bills—they were not produced Before, as they were not called for—they were in the Book when I was examined—they were found upon Holcroft, and were given to the solicitors for the prosecution.

The promissory notes were here read; they were all four drawn at six months, and signed "J. Holcroft," and were for the sums of 532l. 12s. 6d. 697l. 17s. 1d., 485l. 17s. 4d., and 643l. 12s., in favour of Mr. J. Durdin, or his order.

MR. METCALFE, on Behalf of Durdin, submitted that the evidence did not establish a larceny of the three sums charged in the indictment, but only an obtaining them by falsely pretending; that there were assets to meet the cheques presented, and that there was a fund upon which he had a right to draw (See 2d Russell, p. 24, and Rex v. Jackson, 1 Crown Cases Reserved, p. 119). MR. BESLEY, in urging the same point, contended that when a person is induced to part with his property Believing that he will receive value for it, the offence is not

larceny, but obtaining by false pretences (See Reg. v. Bell, Dearsley's Criminal Cases), MR. HAWKINS, with MR. SLEIGH, for Holcroft, submitted that if the money had been obtained by means of a forged cheque presented to the cashier, it could not he said that the money so obtained was obtained by larceny (See East's Pleas of the Crown, 671—Reg. v. Barnes, decided at the Court of Criminal Appeal, December, 1850, and Reg. v. Dennison, Cox's Criminal Cases, p. 112, and 7 and 8 George IV. c. 29). MR. GIFFARD, in reply, contended that the cases relied upon, where the relation of master and servant did not exist, were in applicable; that as to the other cases, if a guilty person obtained money from an innocent agent, that person was only his hand for the purpose of reaching into the till (See Rex v. Hammond, Russell, and Ryan, and Reg. v. Bromley, decided in the Court of Criminal Appeal, in April last. THE COURT would not decide the question, but would reserve it for the Court of Criminal Appeal if it Became necessary; upon which MR. METCALFE declined to address the Jury upon the facts.


Holcroft received a good character.

THIRD COURT.—Wednesday, June 12th, 1861.


Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-495
VerdictGuilty > unknown

Related Material

495. THOMAS SMITH (26), was indicted for unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.

MESSRS. CRAWFORD and ROWDEN conducted the Prosecution.

SARAH ANN SMITH . I live with my father, at 12, Gower-street, North—about 9 o'clock on the evening of Friday, 3d May, the prisoner came for a penny sheet of paper—I gave him one—he gave me a shilling—I looked at it, said I thought it. looked had, and asked him if he had got a sixpence—he said that he had not—I called my father, who took that same shilling up off the counter and took it into the parlour.

Prisoner. Q. How long was the shilling on the counter before your father took it up? A. Not very long—I think my father was down stairs when you came in the shop—he was not in the shop.

SAMUEL SMITH . I am the father of the last witness, and am a stationer, at 12, Gower-street, North—my daughter called me, and I went into the shop and found the prisoner there—my daughter asked me if I had got change for a shilling—I said I had not—she said, "Have you got a sixpence?"—I said, "No, not for that shilling"—I took it up, just turned it round, and showed it to my wife, saying, "This is a bad shilling,—I took up a pair of scissors and cut it in half—I said to the prisoner, "This is a Bad shilling, and you know it"—he said that he did not know it—a person in the shop seeing a policeman outside, called him in—I dropped one half of the shilling, and then picked it up, and gave the policeman the two halves—there is a step out of my shop into the parlour.

GEORGE HOUSE (Police-sergeant, E 46). I was called to take the prisoner into custody at the shop of Mr. Smith, in Gower-street, on 3d May—I re ceived these two halves of a shilling (produced) from Mr. Smith—I searched the prisoner, and found on him a half-crown, four shillings, four sixpences, and three halfpence, good money—I asked him where he lived—he said 23, George-street, Drury-lane—there is no such place—there is a George-street, in St. Giles.'

Prisoner. Q. You did not take four shillings away from me in the parlour? A. I might have made a mistake as to one shilling—I was not quite certain whether it was three or four shillings—I know now that it was three shillings.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . I am inspector of coin to Her Majesty's Mint—this is a Bad shilling.

Prisoner's Defence. I was at King's-cross, at a public-house, drinking the Best part of the evening. As I was going home I called in at the prose cutor's shop and called for a sheet of paper. The girl was there. I put the shilling on the counter; it lay there two minutes, and if I was a smasher I should never have let the father come and take it off the counter. He took it into the parlour. I did not know, when I was asked, whether I had a sixpence or not.

GUILTY .— Confined Six Months .

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-496
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

Related Material

496. JOHN DUNCAN (18), was indicted for a like offence.

MESSRS. CRAWFORD and ROWDEN conducted the Prosecution. LOUISA MARSHALL. I am the wife of Edward Marshall, a Baker, of 21, Beaumont-row, Mile-end—on 26th April the prisoner came and asked for a pound of Bread and a pennyworth of Butter, which came to three pence—he gave me a half-crown—I gave him 2S. 3,d. in change, and he went away—I bit the half-crown with my teeth, found it was Bad, and went after him—I had kept the half-crown in my hand—the prisoner had told me that he was going to a coffee-shop to have his Breakfast; at least, he told me that he could get as much for three pence at my place as he could at a coffee-shop for six-pence, and so I thought he was going to a coffee-shop, and I went to see if I could see him—I took the half-crown to the Mile-end police-station—I did not mark it, the police did in my presence—I took it home again and put it by itself—I afterwards gave it to Kitchen, the policeman—on Saturday, 18th May, the prisoner came again for a pennyworth of Bread and a penny-worth of Butter—I gave it to him and he gave me a shilling—I tried it with my teeth and found it Bad—I told the prisoner I had no change down stain and I would go and get him change—I did not get the change, but brought a policeman and gave the prisoner in charge with that shilling—going to the station the prisoner told the policeman he was never in my shop Before—I did not say anything to him first—I did not charge him with passing this coin—I said nothing to him.

ROBERT KITCHEN (Policeman, K 366). I was called by the last witness and the prisoner was given into my custody, on 18th May last—I received this shilling and half-crown (produced)—the half-crown is marked—I searched the prisoner and found nothing on him—I asked him his address and he said he slept anywhere where he could.

Prisoner. Q. I told the policeman that if I had known the shilling was Bad, or had ever been in the shop Before, I should not have Stopped so long as I did. Witness. That is correct.

LOUISA MARSHALL (re-examined). When I went out for the policeman I was gone about ten minutes—I did not leave the prisoner alone in the shop—there was a customer in the shop, and a man at the door—I had mentioned to them that he was not to be allowed to go—the prisoner was aware of that.

Prisoner. It was a little girl in the shop, not so Big as myself, and she never said a word to her. Witness. It was not a little girl; I Suppose she was about sixteen or seventeen years old.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . These coins are Bad.

The prisoner produced a written defence, stating that he received the Billing from a gentleman; that when the policeman was called in, he said to the woman, 'So this lad has been here Before?' that she said 'Yes,' and he said, 'How long ago since he was here?' and that she said, 'About a month? which she re pleated at the station; that when before the Magistrate, the policeman told the prosecutrix to say it was a fortnight or three weeks age; that she said it was three weeks, where as he (the prisoner) had never entered the shop Before.

ROBERT KITCHEN (re-examined). I distinctly asked her in the shop how long it was since he was there, and she said three weeks or a month—I did not instruct the woman that she was to say it was a fortnight or three weeks—nothing of the kind passed—I asked her how long it was, and she said she could not speak distinctly as to whether it was three weeks or a month; a fortnight was never mentioned.

COURT to LOUISA MARSHALL. You said just now that you had never said anything in his hearing, about his having been in the shop Before, and that you did not know why heshould deny that he had. Witness. I won't Be sore whether it was on the road to thestation—I do not recollect exactly—I never went to the coal-shed and sent the policeman—I called the man from the kerb and hailed the policeman—he stepped into the shop immed iately before me; we both went in almost at once—I had not known the prisoner before he came and passed the half-crown on 26th April—I did not know, while he was in the shop, that it was had—I found it out directly afterwards—I do not fix any date—I said three weeks or a month—it was on a Friday.


10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-497
VerdictGuilty > unknown

Related Material

497. WILLIAM JONES (18) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin, having other counterfeit coin in his possession.

MESSRS. COOKE and CRAWFORD conducted the Prosecution.

THOMAS LING . On Tuesday, 14th May, I was in the road at the Hide, Kingsbury, Near Edgeware, about 3 o'clock in the afternoon—I saw the prisoner in the road near the Red Lion—he said, "Boy, go and fetch me a half-quartern loaf—he told me to go up to the Baker's shop—he did not point out any particular shop—there was only one Baker's shop there—he said he would give me a halfpenny—he gave me a half-crown—I went to Mrs. Jennings' shop, asked for the Bread, and put the half-crown on the counter—Mrs. Jennings said it was Bad—she kept it—I left the shop and went to look for the prisoner—I did not have the bread—I found the prisoner stooping down standing in Mr. Sowden's garden, peeping—I told him it was a bad half-crown—he went with me to Mrs. Jennings' shop—I asked him to go there—after having some conversation with Mrs. Jennings he left the shop and went towards Edgeware.

Prisoner. Q. At Mrs. Jennings' shop did not I say I did not give you the half-crown? A. Yes; you did not offer to take the half-crown away from Mrs. Jennings or ask her for it.

HARRIET JENNINGS . My husband keeps ft Baker's shop at the Hide, at Kings Bury—the last witness came to our shop on the afternoon of 14th May, and asked for some Bread—he put at half-crown on the counter, and I saw directly that it was Bad—I took hold of it, told him so, and asked him where he got it, and he told me—upon that he left the shop and came hack with the prisoner about ten minutes afterwards—he could not find him at first—I said to the prisoner, "Why did you give the boy this bad half-crown?"—I had it in my hand—he said, "I did not give him the Bad half-crown; I have not been the Boy Before"—I said, "I believe you gave him the

Bad half-crown, and I shall send for Mr. Pearce," who is the constable as Kingsbury—upon that the prisoner left the shop, and went towards Edge-ware—I sent somebody for Mr. Pearce, and he came—I gave him the Bad half-crown which I had received from the little boy—before the little Boy came into the shop I had seen the prisoner outside the door looking in at the window about ten minutes or a quarter of an hour.

GEORGE PEARCE (Policeman, S 149). I was sent for by the last witness, and went to the shop—she gave me this half-crown (produced)—she and the little boy gave me a description of the prisoner—I followed the prisoner and took him in custody at a place called Burnt Oak—he was looking into a little shop window—he stepped towards me as I came up—I said, "When have you come from, young man?—he said, "I don't know; I am strolling about"—I said, "From a description I received at the last village, you an the young man that I want, for enticing a boy to pass a bad half-crown"—he said, "I know nothing about any village, or any Boy, or any Bad half-crown"—I said, "I shall take you on suspicion; you answer the description"—I then took hold of him—he tried hard to get away—I then threw him on the ground for the purpose of searching him—I saw his left hand clenched; I forced it open, and found this Bad half-crown (produced)—I further searched him there, and found on him a two-shilling piece, six shillings, one sixpence, two fourpenny pieces, and sixpenny worth of coppers, good money—I took him to the station, and he was locked up.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . These coins are both bad.

Prisoner's Defence. Does it stand to reason that I should have gone back to the shop, if I had known it was a bad half-crown.

GUILTY .*— Confined Twelve Months .

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-498
VerdictGuilty > unknown; Guilty > unknown; Guilty > unknown

Related Material

498. WILLIAM REYNOLDS (59), HENRY ROUSE (30), and MARY ANN COLLEY (28), were indicted for a like offence.

MESSRS. COOKE and CRAWFORD conducted the Prosecution.

JO B TIDY (Policeman, N 154). I was on duty in Florence-street, Islington, on 22nd May last, about half-past 3 o'clock—I saw the prisoners there standing together, talking—I watched them, and saw Colley go and look in at the door of the Florence Tavern—the other two remained where they were, near the tavern—Colley then came back and stood with the other prisoners—after that Rouse went in at the door of the same tavern, Colley and Reynolds meanwhile standing outside—Rouse came out again and joined the other twoprisoners, and the three then went further on—they were still in conversation—they went to the corner of the Upper-street—I continued to watch them—Reynolds then came back and went into the public-house, leaving the other two standing together—I watched him in—he came out again and went towards the other two prisoners—the waiter followed him and overtook him before he reached them—the other two ran away when the waiter took hold of him—they saw the waiter when he and Reynolds came out—I went after the two that ran away—they separated, and I followed the woman—she crossed the road into Tindal-place—I caught her—when I got to the station afterwards, Harris gave me 5s. in this rag (produced)—I had charge of Colley then—she saw them given to me—I was going to mark them, and she said, "Don't mark them"—I said, "You feel annoyed at it"—she said, "Never you mind"—on the way to the Court she said, "Rouse is my husband"—they were all three together—she said, "I live at No. 5, James-street, Edgar-place, Bethnal-green"—on her were found six shillings, two sixpences, a fourpenny-piece, and fourpence

in copper, good money—a little child afterwards took me to Tindal-place, where I took Colley in charge—several children were playing about there.

Colley. I gave you the address, "5, James-street, Edgar-place, Old Ford." Witness. I put the address down in this hook; "Mrs. Rouse, 5, Edgar-place, James-street, Bethnal"—I wrote this at the time you told me.

WILLIAM HARRIS . I am the waiter at the Florence Tavern, Florence-street, Islington—in the afternoon of 22d May I was sitting in the Billiard-room window, which faces the street—I saw the two male prisoners pass twice, in company—they went as far as the corner of Upper-street; about forty yards—I saw them coming hack talking together, and then they went back again towards Upper-street—they went round the corner and I watched them a few minutes, and then I saw Reynolds return by himself—he made his way to our place—I ran down stairs and heard him ask for three halfpenny-worth of rum, and he put down a counterfeit shilling—Mrs. Lewis was in the Bar—I went and said, "Missus, give me that"—she gave it in my hand—she gave him the change while I was looking at it and marking it—he left the shop with the change—I found the shilling to be counterfeit—I ran out, laid hold of his collar, and said, "Here, old fellow, I want you; do you know what you gave for that rum?"—he said, "A shilling"—I said that it was a had one—he said that it might have been a bad one—I gave him in custody—I then went to the Upper-street and pointed out Rouse to the constable, as the man I had seen with Reynolds—I saw Colley in Tindal-place, walking gently along, turning her pockets out—I saw her taken in custody—after they were all three in custody I went to the place where I had seen her turn her pockets out, and saw the little girl, Kate Woolf, pick up a rag with five Bad shillings in it—she gave it to me and I gave it to constable Tidy—the Bad shilling that I had from Mrs. Lewis I gave to the constable Jones.

Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. Is Mrs. Lewis here? A. No, she is very ill—I was here yesterday—I was rather late this morning—I had not been drinking—Mrs. Lewis did not put the shilling in the till—she is in the country, very ill—the prisoner drank the rum and walked quietly out—he had got about fifteen yards when I overtook him—all he said to me was that it might be a bad one or it might be a good one—I told him, "You have given a Bad shilling"—he said, "Have IV—he did not say it was a good one—he said, "I was not aware that it was bad"—he went back with meat once—he remained with me till I had got a constable—the constable was near us when I overtook him.

WALTER HILL JONES (Policeman, N 229). The waiter gave Reynolds into Custody outside, in Florence-street, on Wednesday, 22d May—Mrs. Lewis gave me this shilling—I made her mark it—I went back to the house with him—the waiter did not go back with us all the way; he turned back to go after the other prisoners—I had received the shilling when he came back—I found on Reynolds two shillings, a sixpence, and 4 1/2 d. in copper, good money—he said, "You have made a mistake this time, I never was near the place," meaning the Florence Tavern where I took him—he gave an address which I found to be right.

WILLIAM HARRIS (re-examined). Mrs. Lewis gave me the shilling, and I gave it to the constable—I saw it was counterfeit—I saw from whom she received it—it was from the prisoner Reynolds—before I parted with it to anybody I made a mark on it, on the head side—this is the same shilling—it was marked with a lemon knife—this is the mark I made.

MR. RIBTON. Q. When did you make that mark? A. The same afternoon,

just as Reynolds went out at the door, after Mrs. Lewis had given it to me—I marked it so as to know it—Mrs. Lewis saw me mark it—I did not give it back to her after I marked it—I laid it on the counter and said, "Mind that shilling while I go after him"—I marked it because it was a bad one, and so as to know it—I was not outside when I gave the shilling to the constable—I laid it down after I had marked it—after I had given Reynolds in custody I went after the other prisoners—I was away ten minutes—when I came back Reynolds, and the constable were in our house—it was not then that I gave him the shilling—he had got it at the time he took him—we gave it him when he took Reynolds in custody—I laid it down and Mrs. Lewis took it up—she gave it to him—I saw her give it to him—I went out and followed Reynolds—I did go back again into the shop before I had gone after the other prisoners—I went in when the constable took Reynolds into custody, and then went out again—I went in with the man to say that it was the same shilling that he passed—there were two or three customers there then, standing at the Bar—Mrs. Lewis was in the Bar—I am aware that the constable has given the very opposite, and said that I never went in with them; that I went after the other prisoners, and never went into the shop—I went into the shop and then I ran out again with another policeman—there were no other shillings on the counter when I went in—missus had got the shilling in her hand—I Bad left it on the counter—I saw her give it to the constable—I was in the house at the tine—I went out after that—I saw the shilling in missus's fingers—it was not on the counter—I mean to swear that I saw her give it to him.

COURT. Q. Which is true; did you give it to the policeman, or did you see Mrs. Lewis give it? A. I saw Mrs. Lewis give it—I did not know that I swore three or four times that I gave it.

MR. COOKE. Q. Is this the mark you put on the shilling? A. Yes.

KATE WOOLF . I am seven years old—I was playing with some children At Tindal-place—I picked up a bit of rag with something in it—I did not see it come from anywhere—I saw it on the ground—I gave it to Harris, the waiter, who came up—I afterwards showed Tidy where I picked it up.

Colley. Q. Did you say anything to Harris when you gave the piece of rag to him? A. No; he said something to me—I do not remember what.

LUKE JAMES TOMPKIN (Policeman, N 315). I was on duty in Florence-street, Islington, on the afternoon of 22d May last—Rouse was pointed out to mi by Harris, and I took him in custody—I told him I took him for being concerned, with another man, in uttering a counterfeit shilling—he said, "Me! me! me! what are you going to do?"—he was going to put his left hand into his left-Band waistcoat pocket—I laid hold of his hand, put my fingers into his waistcoat pocket, and found a counterfeit shilling—I put it between my teeth and put two marks upon it—I gave it to Mace, another constable, who was with me.

WILLIAM MACE (Policeman, N 511). The last witness gave me this counterfeit shilling (produced)—I searched Rouse at the station, and found on him a sixpence, and a four penny-piece, good money.

JAMES WOOLF . I am the landlord of the Hare and Hounds public-house, Upper-street, Islington—on 22d May, Rouse came there about 3 o'clock in the afternoon, as near as possible—he asked for a glass of ale which came to two pence—my wife served him in my presence—he threw a bad shilling on the counter—she took it up and handed it tome—I said that it was Bad, and he tendered me another, saying, "It is very

strange that there is so many Bad shillings passing about"—I noticed the shilling that he gave my wife, because it was a Black one—this is it.

Cross-examined by Mr. RIBTOM. Q. What is the reason you say that is The one? A. I should know it out of a hundred.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . These coins are all bad—in the rag there are two of 1839, from one mould, and two of 1845, from one mould.




Confined Eighteen Months each .

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-499
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty; Guilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment; Imprisonment

Related Material

499. GEORGE SMITH (22), and JOHN DOUGLASS (26) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin; to which Smith.

PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Nine Months .

MESSRS. CRAWFORD and ROWDEN conducted the Prosecution.

JAKE RO BINSON . I am Barmaid at the Railway Tavern, Charles-street, Paddington—on 15th May, Smith came there for half a pint of Beer, and gave me a bad shilling—I bent it and said that it was Bad—he gave me a good one, and I gave him eleven pence change—I threw the bad shilling on the side Board—Policeman 113 D came afterwards and I gave it to him—I am sure that was the same—a man named Haddon was present while Smith was in the house.

GEORGE HADDON . I was just outside the Railway Tavern, on 18th May, and saw Smith there, inside, at twenty minutes past 10 at night—I saw Douglass standing under a gateway just outside—Smith, as he came out, cast his eye round to see under the gateway—he then went on about forty-five yards, And stopped—Douglass was still under the gateway, till Smith stopped—that was the gateway into which the Railway Tavern opened—when Smith stopped, Douglass walked on to him—they stood still for a minute or two, had some conversation, and then went along East Bourneterrace—I followed them into Praed-street, and then I spoke to Policeman 113 D, and gave information.

Douglass. I could Be seen by anybody either inside or outside the public-house when I went to speak to Smith. Witness. Not by anybody inside.

JOHN GENTLE . I keep an eating-house at 45, Praed-street, Paddington—On Wednesday, 15th May, about half-past 10 o'clock in the evening, the prisoners come there together—they asked for a quarter of a pound of spiced Beef and a pennyworth of pickles, which came to three pence—I served them with it—Smith gave a shilling, and I gave inference change—Douglass was standing close by him—I put the shilling on one side ofthe till—the prisoner stood at the door, and ate the pickles, but not the Beef after they had eaten the pickles they left directly, together—about a minute and a half after that the constable Wiltshire came in—in consequence of what he said, I tried the shilling, and found it Bad—I am positive that it was the same—I gave it to the policeman—this (produced) is it.

Douglass. Q. Why did you put it on one side? A. I had no particular reason—there were several other shillings in the till.

MR. ROWDEN. Q. Are you quite sure that the shilling you gave to the constable wasthe one that had been given to you by the prisoners? A. Yes.

COURT. Q. Why are you sure? A. Because it stood by itself where I had Put it in the till just Before.

JOHN WILTSHIRE (policeman, D 113). I was on duty in Praed-street, Paddington, on 15th May last, at about half-past 10 o'clock in the evening—in consequence of information Haddon gave me, I watched the prisoner,

and saw them go into Gentle's eating-house—I stood behind a little Board on one side ofthe shop, and saw Smith put a shilling on the counter—after they left I asked Mr. Gentle whether two men had not been in there passing bad money—he took out a shilling from the till—he said he had sounded it, and I told him to try it in the detector—he did so and found it was Bad—he gave it to me; this is it—I then went after the prisoners—they were both standing together about twenty or thirty yards from the shop, talking together—I and another constable took them in custody—on our way back to Mr. Gentle's, Douglass dropped a shilling out of his left hand—I saw it—a little Boy picked it up—I never lost sight of that shilling—it was dropped down a grating—it was Bad; this (produced) is it—I took Smith to the station and searched him—I found on him a good half-crown, a shilling, two sixpences, seven pence in coppers, and a duplicate for a coat—he refused his address—the other constable took Douglass.

Douglass. Q. When did you find that shilling? A. When I got to the station.

GEORGE JENNER (Policeman, D 226). I was with Wiltshire, in Pared street, on 15th May, about half-past 10 o'clock in the evening—I took Douglass, searched him, and found on him two shillings, four sixpences, three fourpenny-pieces, two threepenny-pieces, and two shillings worth of coppers; all good—I asked him where he lived, and he gave me his address Newton-street, Holborn, at a model lodging-house—I made inquiries there, but could hear nothing of him.

Douglass. Q. Did you see the shilling drop from me? A. I heard something drop from you—I did not see what it was—I had hold of your right hand at the time, and hold of your collar—your left hand was down by your side.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . These three shillings are Bad.

Douglass read a written defence, stating that he had lost his way, and having met Smith outside the public-house, was asking him to direct him; that Smith stated that he was going the same way to Tottenham-court-road; that they went into Gentle's shop, and, after coming out, two policemen came up, one taking Smith for passing bad money, and the other taking him for being in Smith's company; that something was heard to drop, and after searching about with a lantern, the bad shilling was picked up by Policeman D 113, who upon being asked at the station by the inspector where he got it, said, after sow hesitation, that Douglass dropped it; that the shilling might have been changed in its passage through so many hands, and did not come from his; that the address that he gave could not have been false, it being only the address of his landlady; and that he was an entire stranger to Smith.

GUILTY .— Confined Fifteen Months .

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-500
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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500. GEORGE MILLER (68), was indicted for a like offence.

MESSRS. CRAWFORD and ROWDEN conducted the Prosecution.

SUSANNAH DEARLOVE . I am the wife of John Dearlove, who keeps a refreshment-house at Tottenham—on Friday, 24th May, the prisoner came and asked for a quarter of a pound of ham, ready cooked—I gave it to him and he gave me a half-crown—the ham was five pence—I gave him 2s. 1d. change, and put the half-crown in my right side pocket, where there was not her half-crown—about half-past 12 I looked at it and found it was Bad—I then twisted it in a piece of paper and put it in my inside pocket—on 1st June, the prisoner came again for a quarter of a pound—I gave it to him—he offered a half-crown—I said "I have not got change, I will go

and get change"—I went out to tee if I could see a constable, and I re turned—I then said "You have brought me a had half-crown Before, and here is another"—I said to my husband, "You must go out and get me a policeman"—the prisoner said, "Here is at wo-shilling piece"—he throw it on the counter, and said, "There is something towards your loss for God's sake don't lock me up, for I have got a wife and family"—I gave him in custody—I gave the two half-crowns to the policeman—I marked one of them.

WILLIAM ADCOCK (Policeman, N 652). I took the prisoner, on 1st June, at the shopof the last witness, and received these two half-crowns (produced)—I told him thecharge—he said he was very sorry for it, he was not aware of it; but he had paid the woman 2s., which was quite sufficient to pay for it all—I searched him and found a half penny on him.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . These two half-crowns are Bad, and from one mould.

Prisoner's Defence. I gave her the half-crown, not knowing it was Bad, and she gave me the 2s. The Friday afterwards, I changed a halfsovereign, and went to get something for my Breakfast; the woman took the half-crown, and went out, and afterwards came back and said it was Bad. I said I would give her 2s. to make up for it; she would not take it, but would give mein custody. There was a crowd round the door; and the woman gave the crowd the two half-crowns tolook at. That afterwards, the policeman came, and she gave them to him; he asked her if she had marked them, and she said, "No;" and he said, "Then you ought to mark them;" and he marked them in the shop, and then I went with him to the station.

GUILTY .**— Confined Eighteen Months .

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-501
VerdictGuilty > with recommendation

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501. CHARLES MOORE (18), was indicted for a like offence.

MESSRS. CRAWFORD and ROWDEN conducted the Prosecution.

WILLIAM WESTON . I am a licensed victualler, of Old Swan-lane, Upper Thames-street—on Saturday evening, 11th May, the prisoner came with another man for a pint of beer—it came to 2d.—he put down a half-crown—my sister, Mrs. Pooklington, served him in my presence, and gave himthe change—I said, in his presence, that thought the half-crown was Bad—I took it out of the till where I had seen my sister putit—there were no other half-crowns there—when I took it out of the till, the prisoner and the other man immediately ran out of the house—I had been watching directly they entered the house—the potman and I followed them out—they ran up the alley—the prisoner ran across Thames street, up Miles'-lane, and afterwards, up into a court, called Meeting-house yard, where there was no thoroughfare—when I got up, 1 found the officer bringing him down by the collar—the other man escaped—I had got the half-crown in my hand—I gave it to the officer.

Cross-examined by MR. COOPER. Q. Did the prisoner tell you that he had taken it of a man? A. He told the officer so in my presence—he did not describe the man in my hearing—I do not know when he said that he had taken it—I never saw him Before.

ANN POCKLINGTON . I am the sister of the last witness—I served the prisoner—he gave me a half-crown—I gave him two shillings, and a fourpenny piece change, and put it in the till—there was no other half-crown there—my brother had just cleared it—he was present, and made some Observation—the prisoners ran out just at that moment—my brother took the half-crown out of the till, and followed them.

Cross-examined. Q. Was another man with hunt? A. Yes; a working looking man—my Brother found out that it was Bad—I did not look at it.

THOMAS HUBBLE (City Policeman, 94). On Saturday night, 11th May, the prisoner was given into my custody by Mr. Weston—I found him in Meeting court, Miles'-lane, behind a sort of carpenter's bench—there is no thorough fare through the court—Mr. Weston gave met his half-crown (produced)—I searched the prisoner, and found on him two shillings, a fourpenny-piece, and a halfpenny.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . This is a had half-crown.

Cross-examined. Q. You have not cut it? A. No; there is no occasion—I can feel it is bad—it is not what I call a fair counterfeit coin; it has not got the rim of avery good one—I do not think it would pass among labourers, if they were to be paid with it by their masters.

The prisoner's statement before the Magistrate was here read as follows:—"I was persuaded to go into a public-house to pass it, by a tall chap."

The prisoner's mother gave him a good character.

GUILTY.—Strongly recommended to mercy by the Jury. — Confined Six Months.

FOURTH COURT.—Wednesday, June 12th, 1861.



Before Robert Malcolm Kerr, Esq.

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-502
VerdictGuilty > lesser offence

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502. STEPHEN BREWER (59) , Feloniously assaulting Eliza Robins, with intent to ravish her. Second Count, Charging a like offence upon Eliza Ann Mason. Third Count, Assaulting Maria Jane Taylor, a girl under 10 years of age; and three other Counts for indecently assaulting each of the said persons.

MR. COOPER conducted the Prosecution; MR. LEWIS the Defence.

GUILTY on the Three Counts for indecent assault.

Confined Twelve Months on each Count, each sentence commencing at the expiration of the former .

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-503
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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503. JOHN RICHARDS (19) , Unlawfully attempting to commit B—st—y.

MR. KEMP conducted the Prosecution.


10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-504
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceNo Punishment > sentence respited

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504. ELIZA SMITH (16) , Unlawfully obtaining the sums of 2s. 2d., 10d., 10d., and 9d. of the General Omnibus Company, Limited, by false pretences; to which she


MR. BEST, for the prosecution, stated that thirty more cases could be brought against the prisoner.

Judgment Respited .

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-505
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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505. GEORGE COOPER (29) , Unlawfully obtaining 6 Books of George Smith, and another, by false pretences, having been before convicted; to which he


Three Years Penal Servitude .

OLD COURT.—Thursday, June 13th, 1861.



Before Mr. Justice Crompton.

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-506
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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506. RICHARD HODGSON ( ), Rape on Rebecca Walker.

MR. LEWIS conducted the Prosecution, and MR. SLEIGH the Defence.


NEW COURT.—Thursday, June 13th,1861.



Before Mr. Baron Bramwell.

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-507
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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507. JOHN DURDIN (45), was again indicted for stealing, on 19th May, 1851,10l. of Mark Hunter, one of the public officers of the Commercial Bank, in his dwelling-house. In two other Counts he was charged with stealing the sums of 580l. and 200l., and in other Counts the mode of charge was varied. [See page 118.]

MESSRS. GIFFARD, POLAND, and HARRY GIFFARD, conducted the Prosecution.

JOHN SLANN . I am one of the ledger-keepers of the Commercial Bank at the Henrietta-street Branch, and was so at the latter part of 185l—the prisoner Durdin was ledger-keeper—it was his duty to keep the two ledgers from D to J or K at that period—those ledgers would contain the current accounts—Besides those he would keep the calendars; that would be the summary of the ledgers from D to K, corresponding with the ledgers—in February last, it was the practice of one of the clerks of the Bank to stay till 9 o'clock at night—there were six of us—I remember the Saturday night when it was my turn to stay—I am not quite sure whether that was the Saturday before the fraud was discovered; I think it was the Saturday week previous—at that time Durdin had been absent from illness for about two days or two days and a half—I think he left on the Thursday afternoon in the middle of the day—while I was at the Bank on that Saturday, Durdin sent a ca B for me, stating that he should very much like to see me—that was about half-past 6 or 7 o'clock—when 1 remained of a night I should, in the ordinary course, have access to the ledgers and calendars kept by Durdin, if I had liked to examine them—when the ca B was sent, I went to Durdin's house—he was in Bed—he merely put a few questions to me regarding the Business of the Bank; how we were getting on, and so forth—I should think I was there fully an hour—I wished to go two or three times, but he rather persuaded me to stop—it was about half-past 8 when I got back to the Bank—I had just time to finish my portion of the ledgers—on the Monday or Tuesday following, the prisoner was again absent—he came to the Bank about the middle of the day on Wednesday—he had then lost the use of his left side or very nearly so—there was no particular remark made on the Wednesday; he commenced casting his calendars, trying the Balances of his ledgers, to see if they were correctly posted, and he continued at that for two or three days; but I found that he was not getting on very satisfactorily, and I said, "I have been thinking of coming o£ an evening to assist you in getting your work up close again"—he said, "You see I cannot do anything else, and I shall soon have them up close again if I continue at this"—I merely remarked, "Very well, I shall see how you get on"—on Friday, 14th February, about 2 o'clock, I went into the room at the Bank where Durdin was, and spoke to him—I rather think he spoke to me first—he told me that Mr. Beatle, the senior ledger, had been telling him that I was coming in the evening to get his workup close,

and he said he would not have anyone touch his work for anything—I told him that I had told the manager I was coming in the evening to endeavour to get his work up close, for I wished to commence perfectly straight next day, as we were going to have a new clerk, and I thought I could keep the work up close myself—he was very irritated and put out about it, and he said if I was coming in he should remain, and stop as long as I stopped—I returned to the Bank on Friday evening about 7 o'clock, for the purpose of working up Durdin's Books—when I got to the Bank, I found Durdin there at his usual place—he said, "If you will take the ledgers, I will take the calendar, and I will tell you which of the accounts are entered," to see that the Balances were carried out correctly—he had previously made the castings—I remained there till 9 o'clock—he made some memorandums upon the papers and castings—he then said he should go and lock up his papers—I said he could do so if he pleased—that would throw a difficulty in the way of casting the calendars, until he came in the morning—on the following morning, before he came, I thought it right to examine the calendars, and found that the summary had been mis-cast about 1,000l.

MR. METCALFE. Q. Do those calendars go back to the period of which you are speaking, ten years ago? A. No; the calendars usually last about a year, or a year and a quarter—there would be perhaps twenty or thirty calendars during that period—the Books I speak of have no reference to that period.

MR. POLAND. Q. Besides the castings of the calendars, did you add up the prisoner's ledgers? A. The aggregate amount I did—fearing there might Be further defalcations, I cast merely the pounds column of his other calendars and discovered about 32,000l. more deficient—they had been miscast between 36,000l. and 37,000l.—Durdin came to the Bank that day at his usual time, about 11 or 12 o'clock—I made no communication to anybody during the day, fearing there might Be a run or something of that sort, I thought it ought to be kept quiet, to give the directors an opportunity of meeting it calmly and quietly—I afterwards called at Mr. Chauncey's, and went with him to the Bank in order that he might satisfy himself that what I had told him was correct—it was about 8 o'clock when we got to the Bank—Durdin was there at work at his Books—he was requested to walk down to Mr. Chauncey's room—he was assisted down there—the facts of the discovery were communicated to him and he was asked if such a statement was correct, and he acknowledged that it was—Mr. Chauncey asked him in the first instance in regard to the 36,000l.—he acknowledged that it was so, and more—Mr. Chauncey then asked him how he had done it—he said he would rather communicate it to him when he was alone, and I at once walked out of the room, leaving him with Mr. Chauncey.

Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. Q. How long have you been in the Bank? A. Between ten and eleven years—I went on 7th February, 1851—I did not go immediately into the same position that I now occupy—I went to the ledgers in August, 1851; I went in us a junior, and took the junior's duties—I was on the walk for two or three months, collecting the cheques and Bills.

CHARLES ARTHUR WILLIAM CHAUNCEY . I was lately manager of the Henrietta-street Branch of the Commercial Bank—the prisoner was ledger-keeper there, at a salary of 150l. a year—in consequence of information from Mr. Slann, I went with him to the Bank on Friday, 15th February, between 8 and 9 in the evening—the Bank closed for pu Blic Business at 4 o'clock that day—I found the prisoner there—he was at work at his ledger, casting his columns—he went into my private room with me—Mr. Slann left us—i when asked the prisoner what the amount of the fraud was and when he had

placed on a piece of paper, which I now produce, the amount of the fraud, I asked him how it had been committed—he wrote down on the paper "66,992l. 7s. 8d.—I have the original here—I asked him how he had done it—he explained that it had been perpetrated by two accounts; first of all his own, and secondly that of Mr. Holcroft—I asked him by what method, and he told me that sums which had been paid into certain accounts had not only been credited to those accounts, but also to the account of Mr. Holcroft.

COURT. Q. Bid he say nothing about his own account then? A. He said nothing more about his own account.

Cross-examined. Q. How long have you been the manager? A. I was nominally manager on 31st July, 1854—I was actually manager on 14th February, 1860—a gentleman named Cadogan preceded me as manager in 1851—I do not know anything of him—I had nothing whatever to do with the Bank before I Became manager in 1854—I think the prisoner received 140l. a year when he first commenced, and 150l. at last—it was not 80l. for several years after 1 was there—there are entries in the Books which can Be seen—I am sure it was more than 80l.

Q. Had he sometimes to act as cashier in the absence of the other cashier? A. I do not think, during my management, that he ever, acted as cashier—he might have done ao for a single afternoon, or something of that kind—I will not Be positive, but I do not think he ever did—he may have received money across the counter accidentally, but not as cashier—he would have to give it to another cashier to account for—I do not know that he constantly received money across the counter.

COURT. Q. Any clerk in the Bank may, in fact, receive money if he sees a friend or a good customer come in, may he not? A. If he does not like to see him waiting he may go and receive his cash, but not as cashier.

MR. METCALFE. Q. Do you not find in the cash-Book that there are a great many entries by him? A. I have not examined those Books, not for the purposes of this prosecution—of course I saw the Books as manager—I. have no doubt there may Be entries of Durdin's in the cash-Book—that would not necessarily Be from his acting as cashier—he may have made entries to assist the cashier—the money might Be received by the cashier, and entered by him as a formal act, if entered at all—the fact of his entering in the cash-Book would not necessarily show that he had received the sums—entries in the cash-Book would be followed out by entries in the ledger, made by himself—the lodger was checked by himself and another clerk next morning with the cash-Book—another clerk called the cash-Book over to him—he was not a small Boy—we had no small Boy—I believe the youngest clerk in the office is nineteen or twenty—from the ledger it would go into the calendar, made up by Durdin, and then into the summary—the summary should not have been made up by him, though I believe in point of fact it was, but by the chief ledger-keeper—it was made up from the calendars, from A to C, which he kept—in point of practice, I believe, the summary was made by him.

Q. So that if he received money at the counter, he might enter it in the cash-Book himself, enter it into the ledger himself, check it himself, enter it into the calendar himself, and into the total summary himself? A. No doubt; there would be no check whatever upon him, from the time he received it and entered it in the cash-Book, until it got into the summary.

COURT. Q. Do you say there would be no check? A. Not if he received it as cash; but I think it will Be found upon an examination of the

Books, that he very seldom received as cashier—there may Be entries in the cash-Book which represent credits in the cash, but upon which there was no cash received; simply transfers—I think it will Be found if the cash-Books are examined, which I have not done, that whatever entries of his are made, are principally of that class, and not actual cash received.

MR. METCALFE. Q. If there was an entry in the cash-Book, without any corresponding assets, there would be a slip, would there not? A. Certainly; and a waste-Book—it would not necessarily Be in the waste-Book—if it was merely a single entry it would not go into the waste-Book—it would not matter whether the sum was large or small, if it was a single entry—one of the cashiers made up the waste-Book.

EDWARD LITTLE . I have here the ledger account of John Durdin, for May, 1851, and the paying-Book for May and July—it is in Durdin's handwriting—I find a sum of 91l. 0s. 7d. entered to the credit of the prisoner on 6th—it is in his handwriting—assuming the entries up to that point to be correct, the Balance before the paying in of that 91l. 0s. 7d. is 12s. 11d. from the cash-Book—there does not appear by the ledger to be anything paid in between 6th May and 20th—here is an entry in the paying cash-Book, under date 19th May, of 10l. paid—that is in his handwriting—that professes to be a cheque paid to himself—the entry simply is "J. Durdin, 10l. cheque;" and on the contrary side, "10l. in gold for the said cheque"—that is the entry of the customer's cheque to his debit in the cash-Book—the words" J. Durdin "there is the entry of the customer's cheque to his debit in the cash-Book—the name is the drawer's name—it means that Durdin's cheque was paid—the fact of his having entered it himself, in his own handwriting, shows who was the particular clerk that paid it; that the himself paid his own cheque; that it was a cheque payable to himself—that is not shown on the face of this Book—it is shown in the ledger—the entry in the ledger on 19th May, is "Durdin, self, 10l."—I have here the ledger account of Mr. Freeman, of 6th May, 1851—that is in Durdin's handwriting—I find there an entry of 91l. 0s. 7d.—I was therein 1851—this is the cash Book of 6th May, 1851 (produced)—there is only one entry to the amount of 91l. 0s. 7d. that day, and that is entered to the credit of J. Durdin; not to the credit of Mr. Freeman—that entry is in Durdin's writing.

Cross-examined. Q. Just turn to the ledger again of 19th May; you say that shows that the 10l. cheque was payable to himself? A. Yes; the entry is "self, 10l.—his account is reduced by so much—"self" means that it was drawn by himself on his own account—all the cheques entered there are drawn by himself; it is headed, "Durdin's account"—I do not know whether the cheque has been looked for; in all probability it is gone long ago—the entry of 19th May would be apparent in the calendar—the calendar merely carries out the Balances.

HENRY SCOTTS . I am clerk to Messrs. Humphreys and Morgan, the attorneys for the prosecution—I served a notice on the prisoner, a copy of which I produce; I also served one on his attorney on 5th June last. (In pursuance of this notice, the cheque in question and the prisoner's pass-Book were called for, and not produced.)

CHARLES ARTHUR FREEMAN . In 18511 had an account at the Commercial Bank of London, Henrietta-street Branch—On 6th May that year, I paid into my account there a cheque for 91l. 0s. 7d.—I have my pass-Book here; I find that entered to my credit in the regular way.

THOMAS DYSON . In July, 1851, I was one of the clerks in the Commercial Bank—the entry of 91l. 0s. 7d. in this pass-Book, under the date of 6th may,

is in Durdin's handwriting—it was my duty in the ordinary course to keep the pay-Book—in my absence from the counter, Durdin would cash a cheque—he did so on 30th July, 1851—here is an entry of that date in his writing: "Joseph Joel, 580l. paid short"—at that time Joel was a customer of the Bank—there was only one Joel—paid short means paid in a few Bank-notes—I find another entry on the same day in Durdin's writing: "G. Etches, 200l. paid with two 100l. notes"—Etches was a customer of tie Bank at that time—I have Joel's account before me in the ledger in Durdin's writing—there is no entry whatever of the payment of that 580l. to Joel on 28th July—By the ticks to the different items, the account appears have been checked—in checking Durdin would have the ledger, and somebody else would call over the pay-Book—I have Etches' account here—the whole of it is in Durdin's handwriting—there is no entry there of 230l. on, 30th July; that account appears to have been checked—that would be done the same as the other; Durdin would have the ledger and somebody else would call over the pay-Book.

Cross-examined. Q. Were you there in 18511? A. Yes; I was cashier at that time; the prisoner acted for me in my temporary absence, I suppose for a week or a fortnight; I can tell by the Book—it appears from this Book, that I was only absent one day—I may have been a sent on a trial, when Durdin would probably take my post—he did not always act for me when I was absent; sometimes one and sometimes another, but not of late years.

JOSEPH JOEL . I have been a Bill-Broker and discounter—in 1851 I had an account at the Henrietta-street Branch of the Commercial Bank—on 30th July, 1851,1 drew a cheque for 580l.; I do not find that debited to me in my pass-Book—the pass-Book correctly represents my account.

COURT. Q. Did you get 580l. on 30th July, 1851, from the Commercial Bank? A. No; nor draw for that amount.

Cross-examined. Q. I suppose your only means of knowing that is by the Book? A. Certainly—I am quite satisfied: I did not get it; I should say I did not have it, because if I had it would be entered in this Book; independ ently of that, I know nothing of it—my account was a pretty fair one at the Bank at that time, a few thousands—I kept another account besides.

GEORGE ANDREW ETCHES . In 1851 I kept an account at the Henrietta-street Branch of the Commercial Bank—I cannot ill whether, on 30th July, 1851, I drew a cheque for 200l. or received 200l. from the Commercial Bank, for I have not got my pass-Book—I have looked for the pass-Book, but have only found the cover—I have looked for the interior of that cover, but have not been able to find it—I remember once an error oocurring in that pass-Book; of my having drawn a cheque, and not being de bitted with it—it was about that time, but I can't say the day—that was a cheque for about 50l. or 60l. I believe to the Best of my recollection—I cannot under take to say whether there was an error to the amount of 200l. or not; but my impression is it was only 50l. or 60l.

COURT. Q. It ought to have been put to your debit, and it was not? A. Yes; it was put right by Durdin.

JAMES GLEOG . I am an accountant—I was employed to investigate the Books of this Bank—I am aware of the different sums which are the subject of complaint in this indictment—I have gone through the calendars and ledgers to see whether those sums are included in the mis-castings—they are included.

COURT. Q. Do you mean that upon particular dates you can show the casting to be wrong: to the extent of these sums, or that, in order to account'

for the total of the mis-castings, these sums cannot Be taken into account? A. We took it from three weeks to three weeks; and we have ascertained that the error in addition was increased by certain amounts in which these were included—with regard to the 91l. 0s. 7d. I find that, on that particular day, there is an additional mis-casting to the amount necessary to conceal it—there is an additional mis-casting of the 91l. 0s. 7d. which is increased by a sum of 8l. 19s. 5d. to make it even to the sum additionally charged, not debited to Durdin's account; which makes an even 100l. instead of 91l. 0s. 7d.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. Without giving credit for the particular sums, the subject of complaint in this indictment, will the result of your examination amount to the sum stated by the prisoner, 66,000l.? A. Not excluding those sums, nor yet to the portion of it shown in the calendar at that date.

COURT. Q. Would those sums make it exactly tally with the amount confessed? A. It tallies up to 30th July, but eventually it differs to the extent of about 140l.

COURT to THOMAS DYSON. Q. When an entry is made in the pay-Book in the handwriting of any person as a payment, does that indicate that his was the hand that paid it? A. Yes; and the person who pays is the person who takes the notes or money out of the drawer for the purpose of paying it—it might Be that, if I had been standing there, the prisoner might have said to me, "Just give me ten sovereigns out of your Bowl" and enter it himself—I think it is improbable—Mr. Mark Hunter is one of the public officers of the Banking company.

GUILTY on all three Counts. — Fourteen Years' Penal Servitude .

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-508
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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508. MARY BARNARD (37) , Feloniously killing and slaying Hannah Jane Barnard; she was also charged upon the Coroner's inquisition with the like offence.

MR. TAYLOR conducted the Prosecution.

MARGARET NIOHOLLS . I am an inmate of the workhouse of St. Leonard, Shoreditch, and am a nurse in the nursery there—I remember the little child Hannah Barnard being brought into the workhouse on 4th May; it Was given into my hands in a very dirty and neglected state—the lower parts of its body was completely raw, the Bones appeared to be coming through the skin, and bleeding—the matron ordered every nourishment and every care to be taken of it, from the state it was in; whatever was requisite for it was to be given—it took its food ravenously for two or three days, and then it Became more satisfied—it was five months old, I believe—it appeared to be that age—it seemed to do for two or three days—it Became more Satisfied—it seemed to do pretty well at first—the wounds healed up; it got very much stouter, improved in weight and its looks—within twenty-four hours of its death it refused all nourishment—it died in convulsions on the eighth day, Saturday, 11th May—the surgeon saw it once or twice a day.

Prisoner. What was on the child was not dirt but fuller's-earth; it was well washed every day, but I put the fuller's-earth on before I went out in the morning, as it had a sore raw place at the Bottom of the back. Witness. There was no fuller's-earth on it at the time I received it into my ward; it was in a very dirty condition, and the clothes were adhering to the wound on the back.

ROBERT COLE . I am inquiring officer of the parish of Shoreditch—on Saturday, 4th May, the little child was brought to the workhouse—I saw it at that time; it was brought by the child's sister, Mary Ann Barnard, and two or three women living in the court where the parents reside—it was dressed

in a very dirty night-gown—I did not examine its under clothing—I saw that it was very thinly clad, and it was a very dirty night-gown—in cones quence of what was told me I went to make some inquiries at the house in Start ford-place, No. 1, where the prisoner lived—I went there with the deceased child's sister, Mary Ann Barnard—I found no food there—there were three children besides the one in the workhouse—there was one lump of coal—I asked the child why she did not light that—she said she had no wood; there was no wood—I noticed the parents' Bed; it might have been made a com fortable Bed, but it was extremely dirty—the children's Bed was at the foot of the parents'—it consisted of a few flocks—I felt it; it was extremely hard—I tore the tick and found that the flocks from various causes, no doubt by the children, had got clotted and hard—there was a sack in two parts on the tick, and I said "What are these sacks for?"—the child said, "We lie on one and the other covers us," and that was the only covering.

Prisoner. There was more covering; there was a thick knotted quilt on the Bed, and the Bed was sufficiently good for me to lie on—there were sheets on, only they were taken off to dry.

Witness. There were no sheets or any knotted counterpane; nothing of the sort.

MART ANN BARNARD . I am eleven years old, and live at 1, Stratford-place, Ivy-lane—my father's name is William Barnard—he works at Truman and Han Bury's Brew house—the prisoner is my mother—I had a little sister named Hannah—I took her to the Shoreditch workhouse on Saturday morning—she was five months old—my mother used to suckle her once, only once; I mean when she was very young—she used to suckle it when she was in Bed, and she suckled it after she got up; not very often—my mother used not to stay at home with us—she used to go out at 7 in the morning, and come home about 11 or 12 at night—she was tipsy when she came home—she used to leave me nothing but a drop of milk and some Bread to give the child—there was not very much—I was hungry—there was not food enough left for it—I remember going to Mr. Wright's to get some food—my mother used to be away all day every day—there was no food left in the house, nothing that I could get at all—I do not know why she went out—the child used used to cry and scream—I took it to the workhouse on this Saturday because it was crying so—it had on a Bed-gown, a roller, a Blanket, and a little shirt—when mother left in the morning she only left one slice of Bread for the Baby, and a drop of milk—she did not leave any for me—she always came home at night—on the morning that I took the child to the workhouse, I got up at 6 o'clock—mother went away at 7—the child was crying then—I forget what time it was that I took it to the workhouse.

Prisoner. Q. Was not I at home every morning to give you your Break fast? A. No, you used not to sit upstairs because of the neighbours making a noise, only once—it is not true that I could go and get a loaf, or anything I wanted at the shop—you did not wash the Baby every day.

Prisoner. She is telling very wicked stories. I always gave the children food to the utmost in ray power, and I used to wash the child, and put fullers-earth on it every day, by the doctor's orders.

COURT. Q. What time did your father leave in the morning? A. At 6 o'clock—he used to come back between 8 and 9 at night—he was a kind father to me—he nursed the Baby—he noticed that there was something the matter with it, and he said to mother, "Why don't you attend to the child?"—I forget what she said—he was not angry or cross—my mother left me nothing at all—I did not have any dinner at all—I never had any dinner at

all—I had nothing between Breakfast and when my mother came home—she gave me two slices of Bread when she came home at night—I was very hungry—I used to feel that I should like to eat the bit of Bread that was left for the Baby—I never did eat it—I gave it to the Baby—I am sure of that—I told my father that I got no dinner, and he got me some at night—he said to mother, "Why don't you get some in?"—she never said anything—mother had plenty of money—father gave it her on Friday night.

ELIZABETH WRIGHT . I am the wife of James Wright, a Bricklayer, of 12, Stratford-place, which is right opposite the prisoner's—I have known her for two years by living opposite—I noticed the child Hannah Barnard since its Birth—I was present at the Birth—it was Born the Friday before Christ-mas-day—I think, as far as my judgment as a mother goes, it was a likely little Baby—after Christmas it seemed a nice little thing, but after the time that the mother went out it was neglected wonderful—I cannot exactly say what that time was, but I know very well she was out night after night, and I have heard her and her a busivetongue—she was away during the day, I do not say one day after another, and the poor Baby has been at the window, left neglected—I have seen it while she was away and have given it food—I have seen the last witness carrying it, and I have told her to take it in out of the cold—it was dressed in a Bed-gown and a little bit of a shawl tied round it—I never examined underneath its clothing—I have given it Bread and milk, and have actually Borrowed the money to get milk for it; it seemed very hungry; it would even devour a dry crust—it was not properly clothed, according to my idea, for a little infant; not warm enough for that cold time of the morning—on the morning it was taken to the work house, before 9 o'clock, my children went out and gave it some Bread and Butter, part of their own Breakfast—I did not see the prisoner that day until after 9 o'clock at night—the child went to the workhouse at 9 or 10 in the morning—the prisoner was in an intoxicated state when I saw her at night; the girl said she was not at home during the Friday night—it was my idea that she was always drinking in the same way—I have seen her come home in the same state several times, early and late, and insulting her husband in the most dreadful manner at the same time—the child did not seem to be properly clothed at any time after its Birth; I never thought it was nicely taken care of; it was very much neglected as to cleanliness after Christmas—the little girl washed it in a little iron saucepan on the stove the morning it was taken away, and she made Bread and milk in that same saucepan afterwards, and told me her mother had not washed it for a fortnight—when the little girl has been nursing it in the child seemed very hungry; she has been to me to ask me for the crusts that my children have thrown away.

COURT. Q. Did the prisoner suckle the child at all? A. Yes; at the Birth—I was never in her house latterly—I never saw her at the window—I can't say whether or not she had entirely left off suckling the child; she might have given it the Breast when she went in of a night, for what I know.

Prisoner. I always suckled the child, and instead of being out as is said, I used to sit upstairs with the Blinds down, because the neighbours were rather inquisitive, so that very likely they might have thought I was out.

Witness. We were very well aware when she was not out she was in Bed, and the children were going from door to door asking for Bread.

COURT. Q. Were the Blinds in the upper room pulled down? A. They never were drawn up from one week's end to another; the windows were all closed and never opened.

ELIZA BOONE . I am the wife of James Boone, a carpenter, and live at 3, Stratford-place, next door but one to the prisoner—I remember Saturday, 4th May, when the child was taken to the workhouse—I first saw the child that morning, just after 6—the little girl had got it, walking up and down before the house—I heard the child crying—she had on a Bed-gown and an old shawl or cap, I can't say, which—Between 9 and 10 I went with her to the workhouse; it was very hungry at that time—one of the neighbours, Mrs. Brompton, mixed some food and gave it to the little girl to give to the Baby, before we took it to the workhouse—I have known the prisoner two years—I have always seen the child neglected—I believe it to he thoroughly neglected by the parent—it never looked clean; no cleaner than when we had it taken to the workhouse—I only saw the outer clothes—I saw the mother come home on the Saturday night, about half-past 8, she was stupid drunk—I heard the expressions she used when she came—I have frequently seen her come home drunk—when she came home on the Saturday night, she said to the little girl, "Mary, where is the Baby?"—the child said, "The neighbours have had it taken to the workhouse"—she said, "It is a good job too; hallo, Boys, another Guy, the father should take care of the Baby"—the father had gone out in his rifle clothes that day—I had seen the little girl carrying the Baby about for two or three weeks before it went to the workhouse; and the Thursday before that I saw Mrs. Wright fling some dirty crusts out to the dogs, and I saw two little Boys that live in the place go and trample on them, and after that, I saw that little girl go and pick them up and eat them—I have never seen food supplied to the Baby by the mother—I have seen it eat food after the neighbours have brought in, very ravenously, as if it had been very hungry.

ELIZABETH TA BOR . I am the wife of William Tabor, a cabinet maker, of 13, Stratford-place, just opposite the prisoner—I have seen this child, Hannah Barnard, from the time of its Birth, about the place—the child, Mary Ann, was carrying it—the mother has been a very drunken dissipated woman, and has very much neglected her children; she was not usually at home during the day—when I have seen her come home she has been intoxicated—when I Observed the Baby last, it had on a very old Bed-gown, and a very old shawl; that was a month after Christmas—it never had any more at Christmas time—I have never seen food given to the child—I have had the eldest girl come knocking frequently at my door for food—it looked a very nice plump little Baby, but very neglected on the parent's part; most dirty and filthy—it continued a plump little Baby till they took it to the union—I never observed that it Became thin.

Prisoner. Q. I never made any acquaintance with you? A. Never; I did not wish you.

JAMES CLARK . I live at 22, Acton-street, Kingsland-road, and am medical officer of the parish of Shoreditch—on Saturday, 4th May, about 11 o'clock in the morning, I was called to examine this child—its clothing was very dirty—it was then in the act of being undressed by the nurse—the clothing was offensive, and the body was in a dirty and offensive state; the child altogether exceedingly emaciated—there was an excoriation at the extremity of the spine—the inner part of the thighs, and the parts adjacent were also in a state of excoriation, evidently from neglect—the child was weighed by my orders, and the weight I think was 4lb. 8 ounces—the average weight of a child five months old is about 12 lbs.; and the average weight of a female child at Birth is from 6 to 7 lbs., or from that to 8 lbs.—I gave directions that the child should Be put on milk diet—I saw

it constantly daily, and the first few days it seemed to improve—I did not see it take its food, but I had the report of the nurse that it took its food—it seemed to do pretty well for the first few days, and increased in weight; but on the succeeding Thursday, when the child was taken before the magistrate, I Observed a change in it, and it died on Saturday, succeeding that—I made a post mortem examination; there was a slight degree of congestion of the vessels on the surface of the Brain—the Brain itself was pale and softer than usual; there was very minute effusion at the Base of the Brain—the lungs were in a healthy state, but pale and thin—the stomach was healthy but pale, and contained some partly digested food—the intestines were examined throughout their whole length, and there was no trace whatever of any disease in or about the Bowels or glands—the death was caused from want of proper and sufficient nourishment; the different parts being pale would be evidence of want of food—it had not for some time it ought proper maternal care or the substitute for that maternal food which had the to have had—Dr. Barnes assisted me in my examination.

Prisoner. That gentleman is mistaken as to the dirt, in the same way as the nurse; what they describe as dirt was only fuller's-earth, and the place on its little back was, I believe, the same.

COURT. Q. Was there fullers-earth on it? A. No; I think the excoriation arose from the napkins having been allowed to remain for a length of time, and the excrement and urine passing over it—the death arose from the loss of vitality—the child sunk until nature could sustain itself no longer—there was no trace of disease to account for death—it had not strength enough to continue vital action even when supplied with materials; it seemed to be too late when the child was removed to the workhouse—it is strange that it should have increased in weight; still there was the fact—an interval of twelve hours without food would of course Be prejudicial to a child of that age—an infant requires food at least once in two hours—that long interval would in itself Be mischievous—any mother would know that.

DR. ROBERT BARNES . I live at 12, Finsbury-square—I am a fellow of the Royal College of Physicians, assistant to Obstetric physician to the London Hospital, and physician to the London Maternity charity—I was called in by Mr. Clark to assist in the post-mortem examination of this child on 13th May—I found what Mr. Clark has described, a state of extreme emaciation, no fat on the body, a want of nutrition; the organs internally were in an entirely Bloodless state, which accounts for the paleness observed—it was a want of formation of Blood—there was hardly any in the body—the skin was excessively pale—the parts were excoriated where the Bones project Behind—there being no cushion of fat to protect it from pressure—the skin had given way or was about to give way in one place over the spine—there was also excoriation about the cartilage; I consider from dirt and neglect—the Brain was very soft, Bloodless, which I consider to be the result of want of nutrition—it might Be attributable to that, but I could not draw anything considerble from that—the organs in the chest were perfectly healthy—the only thing I observed was that the lungs were exceedingly Bloodless; just a little had coagulated at the lower part of the lungs as it lay on its back—the heart and stomach were healthy—there was no disease of any kind in the Body—I attribute death to want of nourishment—it was a child of five months old—it ought to have weighed at least ten pounds—a small child would weigh that, at least, if well nourished—it is a little remarkable that it seemed to increase in weight—that goes to prove that there was some amount of nourishment going on at that time, but it did not come soon enough to rescue the

child from the state of depression into which it had sunk from longcontinued neglect—it has often been observed that a supply of food at the last rather seems to hurry the death than not, if not given carefully—that fact does not stall modify my opinion as to the cause of death, it rather tends to strengthen it—it shows that there was no organic impediment to the proper assimilation of food being converted into Blood—it sunk from real exhaustion, the food not coming soon enough to save it.

Prisoner's Defence. I was very fond of my Baby; it has always been a sickly child; it was Born before the midwife came, and was a very small Baby; it did not seem to have strength to take the Breast, and the midwife said I should have a great deal of trouble with it. I suckled it, and attended to it night and day, and gave it all the nourishment I could. It was very sore and inflamed about the lower parts of its body, and I took it to the doctor; there are two certificates from him in Court. He told me it had diseased glands of the inside, or consumption of the bowels, and ordered beef tea and milk, but if I had not sufficient milk myself I need not buy it any. I fed it, and continued to suckle it; it ate very ravenously, but never seemed satisfied. The doctor said it was of a very weak digestion, that I must not give it so much bread, accordingly I did not It had places like ulcers come out upon its body; I attended to it, and washed it, and put fuller's-earth upon it; the doctor said I could not do better. It was ordered cod liver oil twice a day, and sometimes a bark mixture with wine in it three times a day, and that it had constantly up to the time of its death. On the morning that it was taken away I had been ill, and I went to the hospital, and when I returned I found the child had been taken to the workhouse. My little girl could get whatever she wanted, and I had left enough in the place for breakfast. I had been, to look for my husband, who belongs to the volunteers, but he was gone into the country that day, and I did not return home till rather late, as I had been looking for him. I have four children living; they all went into this same emaciated state, and have all been under medical treatment from four years of age. My husband is consumptive, and has brought up a good deal of blood for years, every now and then.

DR. BARNES (re-examined). I have heard what the prisoner has stated—there is such a complaint as consumption of the bowels—there were no indications whatever of it in this child—I particularly looked to see, in consequence of what Mr. Clark said to me—the appearances after death in this disease are very distinct, and not to be mistaken, and there was no evidence of anything of the kind—it would certainly have been evident by the usual appearances if it had existed—before making the post-mortem examination there was a possibility that the child might have died from natural disease; I therefore looked particularly to see if there were any symptoms, and could find none.

ELIZABETH WRIGHT (re-examined). The prisoner never said anything to me about the child being sickly, and not having strength enough to take the breast, nor did the midwife to my knowledge—I have known the other children to be much neglected, and they are very much improved since the mother has been away—you would hardly credit the different there is in the children since she has been away.

GUILTY .— Three Years' Penal Servitude .

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-509
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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509. ALFRED KYFFIN (21), was indicted for feloniously killing and slaying Edward James Trundell. He was also charged on the Coroner's Inquisition with the like offence.

MR. LLOYD conducted the Prosecution.

WILLIAM WILLIS . I am a menber of the Royal College of Surgeons, and am house surgeon at the Middlesex Hospital—on 30th May last I saw the deceased Boy when he first came into the hospital—he was what we call "concussed"—he was capable of giving a monosyllabic answer when roused—I asked his name, and he said, "Teddy," and then went off again into a sort of sleep—there was a ragged wound abovey the left eye, extending through the scalp to the Bone—I could not detect a fracture until after death—he died about 6 o'clock next evening—I then examined the body, and found a fracture a the back part of the head, through the Bones—there was extravasated Blood, and the Brain itself was ruptured in parts—I therefore concluded that he died from the fracture and bleeding, the result of the injury he had sustained—it is difficult to say whether the wheel of a ca B knocking him down would produce that injury; it might, but I could not assert one way or the other.

COURT. Q. If you had heard that he had been walking apparently in health just Before, and had been struck by the wheel of a cab, what should you say? A. I should conclude that it was the cab that did it.

GEORGE PETTINGALL (Policeman, D 171). On 30th May last, at about half-past 9 in the evening, I was on duty in Oxford-street, at the corner of Regent's-circus—I saw a gentleman with two children, named Harris and Trundell—I took the children to the station and then proceeded with them towards Marylebone; up Baker-street—I had them both in my right hand—the deceased Boy was holding the hand of the other little Boy—we were going across Dorset-street, which crosses Baker street—we were on the right-hand side of the way as you go to the Regeut's-park; on the side nearest the City—there is a cab-stand in Dorset-street, on the City side; the side of Baker-street on which we were—as we were going across, the first cabman on the rank was just starting off—I had the Boys, Harris and Trundell, in my hand—they were nearer the houses than me—I saw a Hansom cab coming from Montagu-square—that is on the other side of Baker-street—I held up hand for the man to stop—I called out to him, "Stop, or you will run over the child"—he was five or six yards off when I said that—I pulled the Boy that I had got hold of out of the way; before I could get the other one out of the way, the cab was over him—I believe both the children were the same age, six years—I still kept calling out for the cabman to stop, and he still kept driving on—he was going towards East-street; down the other part of Dorset-street—Dorset-street runs right and left of Baker-street—I pursued after him—I saw he did not intend stopping, and when he saw me close behind him he pulled up—he went, perhaps, seventy yards, as nigh as I can tell, before he pulled up—he continued at the same pace—it was between eight and nine miles an hour, as nigh as I could tell—the third cabman on the rank picked up the child that was run over—I saw the wheel strike the little Boy—it struck him on the side, knocked him down, and ran over his face—when I overtook the cab I told the man he had run over the child—the prisoner was the man that was driving—he had no fare in his cab—I said, "You have run over the child"—he said, "you are a liar"—I said, "You have"—he said, "You are a liar"—I said, "You will find out you have"—I took the number of his cab, and told him I should insist upon locking him up for being drunk, and furiously driving his Hansom—I caught hold of him by the collar, and told him I should lock him up—he had got down then—he said, "I will see you d—d first," and then struck me on the face—he was very drunk—we had a scrimmage till I got the

assistance of 83 D; he came up and we took him to the station and locked him up—it was just about 10 o'clock when this happened; it was getting dark.

Cross-examined. Q. There was lamp-light, I suppose? A. Yes—I had both the children on my right-hand, Harris first and Trundell next to Harris—the children were straight before me, in front of me—when the cab passed me it was going across Dorset-street—I stepped back and pulled one of them back—the horse was in front of me then—I do not believe any one could have got out of the man's way—if I had had one child in each hand, I should have pulled both back in stepping back—I do not know how many cabs are on that stand—I know a good deal about horses and their paces.

COURT. Q. Had you stepped off the pavement to cross Dorset-street? A. Yes—there was a cab on the rank about starting—the prisoner passed between me and the cab-rank, in front of me—I was crossing, and if this man had not come up I should have passed the ca B-stand—he was on the other side of the cab-rank—he was on his right side of the cab-rank, the proper driving side—I had got past the ca B-rank and saw him coming, and pulled back one child, and could not get the other back in time.

JAMES BOWMAN . I am a cab-driver—on 30th May I was on the ca B-rank, in Dorset-street—I saw a Hansom cab coming along Dorset-street—I saw the police-constable—I heard him cry out to the driver of the Hansom, "Stop, stop, cab!"—I saw the child lying on the crossing, and I went and picked it up, and took it to the doctor's shop in Dorset-street—the lad in the shop said the master was not at home—I brought the child back again to where the man and the policeman were standing—the witness Berry called a cab, and got into it with the child—the cab was driving at the rate of about eight miles an hour—he had no fare—I cannot say whether the cabman was sober or drunk.

Cross-examined. Q. How far was the cab from the spot where the child fell when you heard the constable say, "Stop?" A. About the fourth cab off; not further than that—I ran to the child—I mean he had got four cabs' length down Dorset-street—I heard no cry of "Stop" till then.

CHARLES BERRY . I am a Commissionaire—I was in Baker-street on the night of 30th May last, about 10 o'clock—I took charge of a little child that was knocked down—I did not see the accident—I took him in a cab to the hospital.

FREDERICK GIBSON (Police-inspector, D). I was at the Maryle Bone police-station on the night of 30th May last—the prisoner was brought there by policeman Loadman, 83 D—I took the charge—the prisoner was so drunk that he could not properly walk, he staggered—I locked him up—I went to him about an hour afterwards; he was drunk then, lying on the seat in the cell on his belly and face—I tried to arouse him, but could not; he made several grunts, nothing more—he appeared nearly incenseble—shortly afterwards Pettingall came in, and the prisoner was charged with being drunk and incapable of taking care of his horse and ca B, knocking the child down, and running over it, and assaulting the constable in the execution of his duty—I reprimanded the policeman severely for not taking more care of the children; the tears ran down his cheeks; he said, "I could not help it, sir; I saw him coming; I called out 'Stop, stop' but he would not"—the officer has not got into any troutble about it.

ANN EVANS . I live in East-street, Manchester-square—on 30th May lat I was in Dorset-street, within two doors of Baker-street—I saw a little

child knocked down in the road; I cannot exactly say how it fell—I did not get near enough—I saw a Hansom cab driven by the prisoner—it seemed to me that he had not got power, as if the horse went its own pace—Bowman had the child in his arms—I turned back and saw the prisoner with the policeman—his hat was off—the child was taken in a cab to the hospital—the cab was going rather fast—there are only ten houses on each side in that part of Dorset-street, from Baker-street—I believe there were five cabs on the rank—I did not see him stop; the policeman stopped him, I believe.

BENJAMIN LOADMAN (Policeman, D 83). On 30th May last I wag in Baker-street, and was told that I was wanted in Dorset-street—I got to Dorset-street and saw the prisoner struggling with Policeman 171—I took the prisoner to the station-house—I laid hold of one side of him, and the other constable the other side—we went down about twenty or thirty yards; then I told him he had better go and look after the child, and I would tale the prisoner—the prisoner said he would come along as he knew me, but he would not go with the other constable—he was drunk—he was not capable of driving a cab—I have known him—he could hardly walk.

Cross-examined. Q. He was not so drunk but he knew you? A. Yes—the struggling might have made him worse.

MR. LLOYD. Q. Is the child's mother here? A. No; she is too unwell to attend—I believe she is at the hospital.

MARY ANN FLOWER . I am a sister at the Middlesex Hospital, in the accident ward—about 11 o'clock on the night of 20th May, I saw a little boy brought in—he said his name was Teddy—that was all he said; but his mother afterwards said his name was Edward James Trundell—I attended him till he died—he died at five minutes past 6 on the evening of the 31st.

MR. COOPER submitted that the name of the deceased was not proved properly proud MR. LLOYD suggested that the indictment might Be amended, by striking out the name, and inserting, "Name to the Jurors unknown." MR. COOPER did not think that course could Be adopted, inasmuch as it was imposeble to tell what proof on this point was laid before the Grand Jury: if the Grand Jury had come into Court, and stated that they had had no proof before them of the child's name, then the Bill could have been so amended; but as they had returned the Bill with the name, the presumption must Be that they had evidence before them on the subject. MR. BARON BRAMWELL thought that would be equivalent to saying that an indictment never could Be amended in this way. The learned Judge then retired to the other Court to consult Mr. Justice Crompton.

GEORGE PETTINGHALL (re-examined). The child told me first that his name was Teddy, and then he said his name was Tundell—he pronounced it Ton-dell, not Trundell.

FREDERICK GIBSON (re-examined). I heard the child say when he was brought into the station, that his name was Teddy Trundell; and that Be lived somewhere near the top of Crawford-street.

MR. BARON BRAMWELL . "I think there is evidence that his name was Edward Trundell There is no evidence that his name was James; therefore I will strike out the 'James' and that will meet the evidence."

The Indictment was amended accordingly.

MR. COOPER called the following witnesses for the Defence:

WILLIAM RICHARDSON . I am a cab-driver—I was first ca B on the stand the night this accident occurred—not one ca B left the stand at this time, or just before, and not for twenty-five minutes afterwards—I was waiting on my box at 10 o'clock, and saw the policeman coming across the road with the

two children on his right—in the meantime, the Hansom cab was coming across the road, and, as soon as it had passed my cab, I heard him say, "Stop!"and the cab stopped at about twenty to thirty yards after—he said, "You have run over the child"—I got off my box; and at the same time, Bowman came and picked the child up—when the cab came up, the policeman was about two feet from the horse's head—they were about one yard in advance of my horse, towards the Hansom, past my cab—the policeman was close by the side of it—I saw the cab pass the policeman, and the first child, and saw it strike the other one, who was a little in advance—if the policeman had a child in each hand, he would have saved the pair of them as well as himself it would not have happened—if he had taken one step he would have cleared the horse—the prisoner was not going at all at an unusual pace for a Hansom cab; they are not stopped directly—he pulled up in very good time—it was two or three cabs down, when the policeman halloed out "Stop!" and I do not suppose the man went more than from twenty to thirty yards after that—from what I saw, the accident could not have been prevented by the cabman—I do not think he was to blame—the night was dark; and I considered the one that was in fault was the constable, for not having one in each hand—I do not expect persons to be passing directly under the horses of a cabstand—it is rather a dangerous place—one would suppose he would look before crossing the road.

Cross-examined by MR. LLOYD. Q. Do not you think if the prisoner had been going at a less rapid rate, he would have prevented it? A. No—I should think his rate was not exceeding eight miles—the pace I go at is from seven to eight or six—four is the pace we go at by the hour; that is a different thing altogether—many do go at eight miles an hour, whether it is usual or not I cannot say—I was on the cab box—I jumped down directly, as soon as I heard the cabman say, "Stop, cab, you have run over the child"—I was facing Baker-street, facing the side that the policeman came over—I was watching the Bazaar at Madame Tussaud's, for a fare coming out—I had not a fare coming out, I was waiting for the gentleman there, that blows a whistle, to call us over—I did not make any motion of moving—I was not going to start—I was waiting for the whistle Blowing—I saw the cabman after he stopped.

COURT. Q. Did you hear the prisoner say that the policeman was a liar? A. I did not—I did not hear the policeman say, "You have run over the child;" or the cabman say again, "You are a liar"—after the cab had passed about six yards, he said, "Stop, cab, you have run over a child"—I did not see any struggle with him—I was there for about twenty-five minutes after—I was not there all the time.

JOHN KYFPIN . I am the Brother of the prisoner—I was with my cab on this night in Dorset-street—I was not on my cab—it was behind the four-wheeler, standing second on the rank—I noticed a Hansom cab coming across from Baker-street to Dorset-street, not knowing it was my brother—the cab was,—about six yards past the crossing—he pulled up between twenty and thirty yards after—it was about the third cab down—I saw the policeman with these two children—he was walking across the road with both children on his right-hand side—the youngest had hold of the hand of the eldest one—the Hansom cab passed the policeman and the eldest child; and the stock of the wheel caught the skull of the youngest child, he being farthest out—it just brushed his forehead—it could not have been prevented, whether my brother was sober or otherwise—I look upon it as a pure accident—the policeman, placed as he was, would hide the children from my" brother—it was rather a

darkish night—I have known my brother all his life—he is a very sober man, and kind—I never saw him under the influence of liquor before—he is a careful driver—he was not going at an unusual pace—it was a pace that is constantly gone by Hansoms, fare or no fare.

Cross-examined. Q. I suppose you know he was drunk on this occasion? A. I do not own that at all—I said that he had been drinking—one of the children was in advance, and the policeman would hide that child from the cabman—the policeman was crossing the road just ahead of the four-wheel—I do not know whether the eldest child had hold of the policeman's hand or not—the youngest was the outside one—it was natural enough that the man, seeing a policeman, would never think of looking for two little children by the side of him—the child that was knocked down was slightly in advance—it was impossible for the cabman to have seen the child.

MR. COOPER. Q. The night was so dark? A. Yes—on these cabs the cabman sits very much behind—there being no fare the ca B would project up; the shafts would be off the horse's back, and it would make a distance of six inches.

COURT. Q. You must have been close to where he stopped? A. Yes—the policeman told him he had knocked the child down—I did not hear my brother say he was a liar—the policeman had hold of his collar, and he had hold of the constable's collar—I did not see him strike him—I never heard him say he would be d—d before he would be taken.


THIRD COURT.—Thursday, June 13th 1861.


Before Mr. Recorder.

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-510
VerdictsGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentencesNo Punishment > sentence respited

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510. ERNEST BRAWN (48) , Embezzling and stealing the sums of 300l., 260l., also the sum of 500l., the monies of Julius Bordier, and another, his masters; to which he

PLEADED GUILTY .— Judgment respited .

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-511
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty; Not Guilty > unknown; Guilty > lesser offence
SentenceImprisonment; Imprisonment; Imprisonment; Imprisonment

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511. GEORGE BROWN (24), RICHARD SWINDLE (20), GEORGE DAWSON (18), JANE HAWKSWORTH (18), and ANN FOREST (19) , Burglariously breaking and entering the dwelling-house of George Frederick Fairburn, on 16th May, and stealing therein 4 books, value 10l., and other articles, value 23l., his property. Second Count, Feloniously receiving the same; to which

BROWN— PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Nine Months .

MR. ROWDEN conducted the Prosecution.

GEORGE FAIR BURN . I am a clerk at Somerset House, and live at 11, Hanover-street, Islington—my house is in the parish of St. Mary, Islington—on the night of 16th May, I secured my house—I believe the windows and doors were all safe—next morning I found one of the windows open—it had been opened by taking the pane of glass from over the latch, and the latch was unfastened—the pane was cut out, I believe—I had gone to Bed that night at 11 o'clock—I came down a little before 7; I should think a quarter before 7—I missed a great quantity of property—I have seen this property (produced)—it is mine—there were four printed Books, nine

smoking pipes, a cribbage Board, a pack of playing cards, a set of chessmen, a set of draughts men, six pieces of damask, four table cloths, three sheets, twenty-four handkerchiefs, four shirts, six towels, three shifts, four pillow-cases, an umbrella, two petticoats, a coat, a pair of trousers and hat, two pairs of Boots, a Bag, pipe case, and cigar case, twelve spoons, a powder-flask and other things, a knife, pencil-case, two pieces of leather, and a Basket—all those were mine, and I have seen them all in the custody of the officer who produces them—they were all safe on the night of the 16th, in different places in the house—I should think it would have taken any one a long time to collect them.

MARKS VAN BOOLEN . I am a pawn Broker, and live at 233, Hoxton Old Town—on 17th May, about 12 o'clock in the day, the prisoner Swindle came alone to my shop, and asked me if I wanted to Buy some property, mentioning Books, chess, draughts, plate, spoons, and different articles—I told him, Yes, I would Buy some—he had not got the things with him—I asked him where they were—he said, They are in the Vinegar-ground"—he said I should go with him to the place to purchase the articles—I told him I did not do that, because my house was open for everybody that had got anything to sell—he went away, and came back again, I daresay between 1 and 2 o'clock—the prisoner Brown was with him—they brought this Black carpet Bag and another one with them, loaded with things—they contained the articles he had spoken to me about—these things were among them, and several others, not produced to day—I asked him where were the silver spoons, there were only plated ones—they said they were Buried—I do not know which said that—as I was talking about the things the constables came in and took them into custody, and took the property.

MARY ANN SMITH . I am a single woman, and live at 15, Francis-street, Vinegar-ground—I know the prisoner Hawksworth—she has lived with me about three weeks—on 17th May, about 8 o'clock in the morning, George Dawson came into the room where we were—Hawksworth was lying in Bed—he brought this hat (produced) with him—it was afterwards taken by the policeman—Dawson gave her something else, but I do not know what it was—he put something into her hand.

THOMAS MAVEETY (Policeman, N 43). On 17th May, in consequence of information I received, I went with Gill, the other constable, to Mr. Van Boolen's—in the shop I saw Swindle and Brown—Swindle had some spoons in his hand—I heard Van Boolen say,"Is that all you have got?"—he said, "No, the others are Buried"—we then went into the shop, and took the two prisoners in custody—the property and the Bags were then on the counter—Brown had a walking stick in his hand—that has been identified by the prosecutor—the Bags were both on the counter—I asked them how they came in possession of the property—they said they had nothing to do with it, and did not know anything of it—after that I went to 3, Francis-street, Vinegar-ground—that is a Brothel—I found Dawson and Hawksworth there, in a back room on the ground-floor, sitting on a Bed, dressed—I found a great quantity of things on the Bed, and some under the mattress—the whole of them have been identified by Mr. Fair Burn—they said they knew nothing of it—there was as much as I and another constable, 12 could take away in three great Bundles—I afterwards went into the kitchen, which belonged to another lodger—Forest was" standing in the kitchen—the room in which the things were found was Forest's own room, her Bed-room—I asked her how she accounted for the whole of the property coming into her place—she said she knew nothing of it; it was not her's—she said

the room was her's, but the property she knew nothing of—I said, "Such a large amount of property as this could not come without your knowledge"—I also found this pair of Boots (produced) on Dawson, and this handkerchief in his pocket; a scarf round his neck, which was also identified by the prosecutor, and there were some trinkets in his pocket, also part of the stolen property—at the station, Swindle wished to speak to me—I said, "Whatever you say I will give in evidence against you, so you had Better Be careful"—he then told me that he was innocent of it, that the others employed him to get a place to sell this property, and he went to Van Boolen's to see if he would Buy it; he and Brown then took the property there together, to dispose of it, but he had nothing more to do with it—he then said, "Have you got the one with the pea-jacket? he has the Boots on him"—I afterwards found on Dawson, who wears a pea-jacket, the Boots that Swindle said he had on—there were duplicates picked up afterwards in Van Boolen's, which related to a coat and waistcoat pledged at a pawn Broker's—I afterwards went to 15, Francis-street, a Brothel—Hawksworth lives there, I believe—I found this hat there, and these two handkerchiefs under the pillow.

JOHN GILL (Policeman, N 299). I have heard the evidence given by the last witness, and corro Borate it.

COURT to THOMAS MAVEETY. Q. Who lives in this house of Forest's? A. There is another person who has a Bed in the front kitchen—Forest occupies the back room on the ground floor, the room in which the whole of the property was found; there was a large clothes Basket also.

COURT to JOHN GILL. Q. Did there appear to be the footmarks of more than one person? A. Yes; two or three different persons.

Swindle's Defence. On 17th May, between 12 and 1 o'clock in the day, I was going down the City-road to have my dinner—I met Brown—he stopped me and took me into a back room, and showed me some things, a Box of chessmen, draughts, twelve metal spoons, two meerschaum pipes, a shiny Bag, and four Books—he asked me if I knew any one who would Buy them, and that if I told him he would give me a shilling or two—I said I did not know, but would go and see—I then went to Van Boolen's, and said, "There is a young man down Francis-street has got some articles for sale, and he wants you to come and look at them"—he said, "I cannot; there is nobody in the shop, but myself, or I would"—he said, "Cannot you bring them?—I said, "I don't know, I will go and ask"—I then went to Brown and said, "The man wants you to bring them"—he then brought them, and I walked four yards behind him till we got to the place; we went in; he turned the things out on the counter; no sooner were they out than the constable came in and asked whose they were. I said they were not mine; he then asked Brown, who said they were not his. On being taken to the station-house, I said I was innocent of the crime; the things were given me by Brown to sell, who said that he would give me a shilling or two; that night I was in bed asleep at my place, and I have a witness in Court to prove it.

Dawson's Defence. I was walking down Francis-street; a man called me in and asked me if I wanted to buy a pair of boots; he said, "I will sell them to you if you like for half-a-crown, and your old ones"—I said I would buy them and I did so, and the scarf I gave sixpence for; and the hat I bought in the afternoon as I was coming back.

Forest's Defence. They have all got the use of that room in the house.


SWINDLE, DAWSON, and FOREST— GUILTY on the Second Count.

Dawson was further charged with having been before convicted.

PETER LUGG (Policeman, N 199). I produce a certificate—(Read; "31st July, 1860. Worship-street Police Court; George Reid, convicted of stealing a handkerchief from the person of William Reynolds.—Confined Three Months")—That certificate refers to Dawson—he was then sentenced in the name of Reid.

DAWSON—GUILTY.**— Confined Eighteen Months .

SWINDLE—GUILTY.— Confined Eighteen Months .

FOREST—GUILTY.— Confined Six Months .

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-512
VerdictNot Guilty > directed

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512. THOMAS BELLMOR (27) , Robbery (with another man unknown) upon John Randall, and stealing from his person 14l. in money, his property. MR. LEWIS conducted the Prosecution.

JOHN RANDALL . I live at Thames-street, Camberwell, and am a pig Butcher—I have known the prisoner from a child—on the evening of 23rd Hay, I was in the Duke of Wellington public-house—I went in with Mr. Hale and the prisoner, and remained there about half au hour—we went in at a quarter to 11, and went out at a quarter-past—I had 15l. in gold in my pocket when I went in, one sovereign was loose in my pocket and the other fourteen were in a Bag—after we were in the public-house, Mr. Hale Borrowed a pound of me and I took out the Bag—the prisoner was near enough to see the Bag and the money—he did see it—I put the Bag in my pocket again—that was about ten minutes before I left the public-house—I did not take out my purse after that time—we all came out of the public-house together, and the prisoner went back to finish the Beer we had left—Mr. Hale and I came out together—my house is between three and four hundred yards from the public-house—I next saw the prisoner just as I was going into my own gate within a yard or so of it—he came and put his arm round my neck, and I thought my head was off my shoulders—I lost my senses and my money—no one was with me at that time—Mr. Hale had left me about three minutes before I got to the house—I knew what I was doing then—I had bad a drop of Beer with the prisoner previous to Mr. Hale coming to me—I am positive the prisoner is the man.

Cross-examined by MR. LILLEY. Q. The Duke of Wellington is in the Wyndham-road, is it not? A. Yes; Thames-street is a turning out of the Wyndham-road—supposing you are coming from the Camberwell-road, it is a turning on the right-hand side of the way—it is very well lighted—a carriage could go down it—I have seen them—a carriage is rather a rarity there—I have been drinking with the prisoner before I went in with Mr. Hale—I was there about half an hour—I had my tea that afternoon between 3 and 4 o'clock—I had no supper—I dare say we had several drinks between tea time and a quarter to 11—I was not tipsy, I might have drunk two pots of porter, and I might have drunk three—I took nothing to correct the porter—Hale walked home with me part of the way; he had hold of my arm—when I took out the Bag to lend Hale the sovereign, no one else was in that Box where we were; there were other people drinking at the other part of the counter—anyone could look round a Box like that if they tried—the man came in front of me just as I got to my gate, and put his arm round ray neck—Mrs. Hodson lives next door but one from me—as soon as I was laid hold of, I saw the prisoner's face by the lamp—I cannot say whether I fell—I have been examined Before—I must have lost my senses before I fell—I had been always on very good terms with the prisoner throughout the evening—I only saw one man; that was the prisoner.

MR. LEWIS. Q. Whether you had drank two pots or three you were able to walk home straight? A. Yes; and the man that I saw was the prisoner—I communicated with the police, it might Be an hour afterwards.

ROBERT HALE . I am a hairdresser, at 57, Amelia-street, Walworth—I was with the prosecutor and the prisoner at the Duke of Wellington—the prosecutor lent me some money—for that purpose he took a Bag out of his pocket—I did not see whether it contained other money—he afterwards left the public-house with me; he was able to walk—he knew very well what he was about—the prisoner was on the step when we left the public-house—I left the prosecutor twenty or twenty-five yards from there; has house is about one hundred yards or a little more from the public-house—he would have to walk the rest of the distance alone.

Cross-examined. Q. You took hold of his arm did you not? A. I think he took my arm—I went with him about half-way to his house, a little way down the turning—he seemed to have been drinking—I did not notice any other men at the public-house—there might have been others without my noticing—I did not see any money in the Bag—I could hear it.

MR. LEWIS. Q. You say there was no one besides yourself, the prosecutor, and the prisoner, in that part of the Bar? A. No; I can't undertake to say whether it was possible for anyone else to see the prosecutor pull out his Bag.

COURT. Q. Is there any way by which a person could go round from the public-house and meet the prosecutor at his house? A. There is a court I believe, by which he could get there, but I will not undertake to say—that way would be a goodish bit farther—he must have had a sharp run.

COURT to JOHN RANDALL. Q. You say the person who put his arm round you, came in front of you? A. Yes; he met me—no one had passed me as I went from the public-house to my own house.

ANN HODSON . I am first cousin to the prisoner.

Cross-examined. Q. Do you live next door but one or next door to Mr. Randall? A. Next door—I saw him lying on the ground on this night—he was not bleeding—I ran and halloed out to Mr. Godfrey—just before I found him I saw two men running away—they were tall men—neither of them was the prisoner—the prosecutor was taken up quite senseless—the turning in which I live, is not so well lighted as the Wyndham-road—I was examined before the Magistrate.

MR. LEWIS. Q. Will you undertake to say that you ever saw the face of either of the men who ran away? A. No; I never saw the face of either of them—they were eleven doors down, or it may be more.

THE COURT considered that there was not sufficient evidence to convict the prisoner.


10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-513
VerdictGuilty > lesser offence

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513. THOMAS ASHWORTH (30) , Burglariously breaking and entering the dwelling-house of James Davis, and stealing therein 42 lbs. of silk, value 50l., his property. Second Count, Feloniously receiving the same.

MESSRS. METCALFE and ROWDEN conducted the Prosecution.

SARAH DAVIS . I am the wife of James Davis, a silk dyer, at 61, Fashion-street, Spitalfields—we have a very large warehouse there, at the back of the dwelling-house—there is an internal communication between the two—we go through from the dwelling-house into the dye-house—the back house is used for dying silks—there is a skeining-room there, where the silk is kept—there are some windows there looking out into a churchyard—the

prisoner worked for us—he had opportunities of going over all parts of the warehouse—I was called up by our watchmen from half-past 4 to 5—I and my husband both got up, and he ran all over the place—I ran down stairs—I did not go to any part of the warehouse—I had not seen it safe the night Before—I had no Business with it—I saw the prisoner on 30th April, at 10 o'clock, in Barnes-lane—that is about a quarter of a mile from our premises—he had a very large Bundle with him—I saw some white raw skein silk hanging Below the Bundle—he stopped twice to put it up—it was slipping out and he tried to put it in—I watched him as far as I could see him, for about a quarter of a mile, and then lost sight of him—he went into a house which I could not see, about two or three minutes' walk from our premises—the silk I saw him carrying was like some we had hanging on the pin in our warehouse.

Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. What night or day was it that you were called up? A. 1st May—I saw the prisoner the night Before, at 10 o'clock—I was close to him then—I knew him—he is a dyer—he was only in the habit of having silk to dye on our premises—I am not aware that he works for anyone else—he was employed by us weekly, and worked on the premises—he was not at this time—he had been away a for night or three weeks—he had left us altogether.

WILLIAM WALBROOK . I am employed as a watchman on the prosecutor's premises—it is my duty to be there at night—I am not there in the day-time—my master has got a dog—it is kept in the skeining-room at night—it was in the habit of barking when strangers came—I have not seen the prisoner take the dog out with him—I know the prisoner—it was part of my duty to lock up the main premises at night—the entrance downstairs was secured on the night of 30th April, but the windows of the skeining-room I cannot say anything about—I went in there at a little before 1 on 1st May—the window was then open—I then went Below to tell my Brother watchman—there is a ledge under the window large enough for a man to stand upon, and strong enough to support the weight of a man—there is a churchyard at the back of the premises—a person from that yard could get to the window of the skeining-room by means of a railing—a person on the railing could get on to the ledge of the window—I went up into the room again about 3 o'clock in the morning with my Brother watchman—he looked through the window, and I looked about the room—he saw some thing under the window, and called my attention to it, but we could not make out what it was—it was a parcel of about three or four pounds—it was lying in the churchyard and under the window of the skeining-room—it was afterwards handed to the officer—we went into the skeining-room again a little after 4 o'clock—I saw the Bundle then—it was silk of the same description that my master had in his warehouse—I had not seen it Before.

Cross-examined. Q. When you went up at 1 o'clock was it safe? A. The windows were open—everything was safe as far as I could see—I closed the window and fastened it—I looked all round the room, but not having been up Before, I could not say whether anything had been removed.

DANIEL LEE . I am a watchman in the employ of Mr. Davis—I was on duty there on the night of 30th April—I know the skeining-room—I did not go up there till the morning of 1st May, at 3 o'clock—something in the churchyard attracted my attention—it was three Bundles of silk—I had not seen that silk Before—I can't say whether it was the same sort that my master had in his warehouse—there were different sorts.

JAMES DAVIS . I am the owner of the house and warehouse in question—my watchman called me up at 5 o'clock, or a little after, on the morning of 1st May—in consequence of what he said, I got out of Bed and ran up into my skeining-room—I found some silk missing—I saw it safe at half-past 7 the night Before—there were two Bundles of raw Bengal silk gone, which had come in the night Before; nine pounds of what we call "China singles," that was safe at half-past 7; four or five pounds of silk called gold colour, dyed, some dra B and some slate-coloured silk—the value of the whole about 50l.—I ran out for a policeman, and then ran round to the churchyard and found some Bundles of silk there, which had been safe in my warehouse the previous night—the prisoner has worked for me for three years—he knew my dog as well as could Be, he used to take it home—it would fly at any strangers who came into the place—I accompanied the policeman to the prisoner's lodgings in Heneage-street, and he was given into custody—Heneage-street is about twenty yards from the end of the churchyard—any one getting from the churchyard into the warehouse window would get over the railings.

Cross-examined. Q. Did you find the prisoner at his lodgings? A. Yes—I have thirty odd men in my employ.

JOHN TUCKER (Policeman, H 67). I went to the churchyard at the back of Mr. Davis's warehouse, between 5 and 6 on 1st May, and found two Bundles of silk, one at the back of the warehouse and one at the churchyard gates—I took it to the station and ultimately gave it to the acting-inspector.

JOHN DOWNES . I am a carman, living at 12, Ely-place, Spitalfields—on the morning of 1st May I was going by the rails of the Spitalfields church-yard, between a quarter and half-past 4, and saw the prisoner there, coming from the back part of Mr. Davis's premises towards the front of the church rails—I know the windows of Mr. Davis's warehouse—I observed that there was one open—the prisoner had two Bundles with him, one tied up with a silk handkerchief and the other with a cotton one—as far as I could see they contained silk—when he came up to the rails of the Burying-ground he gave a whistle, and two men came up—he threw the Bundles over the railings, and then said, "Bee'f, you B----s, as fast as you can"—they ran as hard as they could up the side of Spitalfield's Church, Church-street—the prisoner ran at the back part of the church, and I lost sight of him—he went in the direction of Brick-lane—anyone could get out that way—I had seen the prisoner before several times—I have known him by seeing him go in and out of Mr. Davis's—I am quite sure he is the man I saw.

Cross-examined. Q. Did you know the meaning of Bee'f? A. I have heard the word Before—I have been in a little trouble through a row—I am a carman—I was at work for Mr. Wynn at this time, driving a cart for him—I was going to work when I saw the prisoner—I have never been in any trouble except for a row—I was never charged with stealing two 5l. notes from the master of the Ragged-school, in Gunn-street, Spitalfields—one of the notes was not found on me—there was a robbery at a school, but I was not in it—I was not charged with it—I swear that—somebody was charged with it—he was not a friend of mine—he was not convicted—that was a long time ago—I can't say how long; I was quite a child then—it may Be twelve years ago—I am twenty-three years old now—I mean to swear that none of the money was found on me—I have been in trouble for twenty-one days since then, for fighting—that was about four years ago—that was the only time—I know a potato salesman of the name of Billings, in Spitalfield's-market—I never worked for him—I was never charged with

stealing sacks from him, and never suffered imprisonment for two months; it is false—I have never been in prison for two months, I swear—I was never convicted by a Magistrate for stealing sacks from Mr. Billings—I was never convicted—I am out of work now—I have been out for three weeks—I had been in Mr. Wynn's employment for three years—I left him because the work was slack—I have been job Bing for him since, but not constant—the window was open when I heard the prisoner come to the front of the rails—I should say I was between four and five yards from the window—I suppose he had just come from the window; he came from that direction—he had the Bundles in his hands—I don't know whether he saw me—I thought there was something wrong by the words he said to the other men—I went on, and met a policeman, and told him—he is not here that I know of—when I came home to my Breakfast I heard that Mr. Davis had been robbed, and the prisoner had been taken—I went before the Magistrate, but I was too late; the case had gone in—the clerk would not let me in—I told him what I had seen, and he told me to wait outside, and if I was wanted I should Be called—he said I must stop outside till I was called for—he did not say that I should not come in after I told him who I was—I was not called in, swear that—I don't know how many days after the robbery it was that I gave information of it—I can't say whether it was fifteen days—the reason I did not go was because I could not lose my work—I went on the first day and the clerk would not let me in—I did not go on the second day—I went on the third day because I asked my master—I was with him at that time—after I got leave from him I went home, washed myself and then went to the police-court—I saw Mr. Vann, the attorney for the prosecution, and went to his office—I can't say how long it was after this transaction—I did not know where he lived before I saw him at Worship-street—he came in while I was there—that was the first time I communicated what I had seen on 1st May, except to the policeman and the clerk of the court, I believe—I went to Mr. Davis's house with the policeman on the Tuesday, as near as I can guess, as the prisoner came up on Wednesday—that was the last occasion—the day I gave my evidence,—the policeman, H 82, took me down to Mr. Davis's—he met me in Shoreditch he stopped and spoke to me, and I told him what I had seen—he has known me for a good many years—I did not know that he was engaged in the case—I met him and asked him if he knew the policeman who was engaged in the case.

Q. How comes it that you let such an interval elapse before you gave your evidence? A. I did not know that I should Be wanted—I mean to swear that I mentioned to a policeman on the morning of 1st May, what I had seen—I do not know the policeman's number—I spoke to him just by the railway, in New Commercial-street—I can't exactly say how far from Mr. Davis's premises—I was not five minutes walking to it—he was the first policeman I met, and I told him there must have been a robbery there—from that morning I never mentioned it to any human being, till the Tuesday before I gave evidence, when I met the policeman in the street I did not know that a reward of 10l. had been offered—I do not know now that the prosecutor has offered 10l.

MR. ROWDEN. Q. Had you seen these two men that you speak of Before? A. Never, to my knowledge—there is no truth in the statement that I have been charged with felony; only the assault—I saw the constable Brown, at the Worship-street Police-court—I asked him there if he was the policeman who had the charge.

WILLIAM BROWN (Policeman, H 82). On the morning of 1st May, the prosecutor came to the police-station and gave me some information, in consequence of which I took the prisoner—the prosecutor charged him, in my presence, with stealing a quantity of cochineal, and also on suspicion of stealing some silk—he did not say anything—I was not the first to see him when I went to his house, another constable saw him first—he was dressed when I saw him—I know the last witness, Downes—I did not see him at Worship-street Police-court on the morning of 1st May; I heard he had been there—I first saw him on the Wednesday following—he spoke to me first.

Cross-examined. Q. Then it is not true that Downes spoke to you on 1st May? A. Not to my recollection.

AUGUSTUS HANSHAW . I am a Bricklayer—I went to the prisoner's house about two minutes before Mr. Davis—I knocked at the door, and a female opened it—he came out in about two minutes—he had his trousers, and his shirt, and stockings on—I heard Davis charge him with the robbery at the station.

Cross-examined. Q. What time was it you went to his house? A. About three or four minutes to 5 in the morning—a woman opened the door—I asked if Tom was at home—I said, "Tell Tom I want him," and he came down—I don't know whether he could have heard me—he was not at work at Mr. Davis's at that time.

COURT to WILLIAM WALBROOK. Q. You said that you closed and fastened the window at some time, when was it? A. At 1 o'clock; then my mate went with me at 3 o'clock, and opened the window while I was in the room, and we saw something under the window—the window was closed and fastened when we went in at 3 o'clock—we shut and fastened it again after we opened it then—it was fastened with a catch—I went in again at 4, and the window was the same as it was when I left it—there are two windows there—they were both open at 1 o'clock, and I fastened both of them—they were fast when I went up at 3 o'clock—I went up again with my mate at 4, opened the window, and saw the silk underneath the window.

THE COURT considered that there was no evidence of Burglary.

The prisoner received a good character.

GUILTY of stealing only. — Confined Eighteen Months .

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-514
VerdictGuilty > unknown; Guilty > unknown

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514. JOSEPH FULTON (28) , Stealing 2 100l. notes, 2 10l., and 17 15l. notes, and other goods, the property of Her Majesty's Postmaster-General. Second Count, Feloniously receiving the same.

MESSRS. METCALFE and ROWDEN conducted the Prosecution.

EDWIN BROWN . I am a clerk in the Lincoln and Lindsay Bank, at Louth in Lincolnshire—on 2d February, I enclosed in a letter various notes and Bills, and addressed them to Messrs. Prescott, Grote, and Co., London—I know the number of the notes by referring to this Book (produced)—it is in my writing, and the entries were made at the time—I enclosed two 100l. Bank of England notes, Nos. G. Z. 62,045 and 8,2008—Both of them are G. Z.—I also enclosed two 10l. notes, and four 5l. country notes—these are them (produced)—the four 5l. notes are Messrs. Smith, and Co., No. G. 603, Messrs. Smith, Ellison, and Co., of Lincoln, No. A. D. 7,275, Messrs. Henley and Co., No. 0,444, and Sheffield Banking Company, No. X. 1,686—the total value is 1,361l. 0s. 6d.—I put these notes into a letter, sealed it with wax, and posted it at the Louth post-office myself, about half-past 5, to go by that night's despatch to London—we received no acknowledgment of the

receipt of it from Messrs. Prescott, and in consequence of that a telegram was sent to them—I saw those four notes again at the Mansion House, in the officer's possession—the notes were payable at the Sheffield Banking Company's—the one of Smith, Ellison, and Co., is payable at Smith, Payne, and Smith's—that is the only one marked payable in London—I think they are all payable in London, but that is the only one which states on the face that it is payable in London.

Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. Are there two 100l. Bank of England notes? A. Yes; and two 10l. Bank of England notes—there were seven-teen 5l. country notes, amounting to 85l., and the rest in Bills and cheques.

THOMAS SIMONS . I am post-master at Louth—I made up a Bag of letters on 27th February, and despatched it—any letters would go by that night's post and reach London the following morning.

ALFRED BAILEY . I am a letter-carrier in the General Post Office—a letter posted at Louth, in Lincolnshire, in the evening, would reach London next morning at 8 o'clock—I deliver letters to Prescott and Co., every morning—I did on that morning, and have every morning since—I delivered all letters that came to my hand that morning.

JULIAN HILL . I am manager at Messrs. Prescott and Co.'s Bank, 62, Threadneedle-street—it is my duty to open all letters addressed to the firm—I did not receive any letter containing the notes in question on the morning of 27th February.

Cross-examined. Q. You do not remember all the letters you received on that morning, do you? A. Yes; I can tell what letters I have not received—I cannot tell how many I received—I have not got any entry.

MR. ROWDEN. Q. You received a telegram about this letter, did you not? A. Yes; my attention was called to it by missing the letter—we never got the 1,300l.

JAMES DUKES . I am a foreign money-changer, at 1, Minories—in March last, I received a hand Bill respecting some notes—on Saturday, 11th March, the prisoner came to my shop, and wanted discount for four country notes of 5l. each—these are the notes he produced to me, all four together—he appeared in a hurry, and that struck me directly—when he put them down I referred to the hand Bill which was behind my counter, and found them all there—while I was there, I told my son, in Dutch, to go and fetch a constable, and he went—I was apparently counting out the money, making out the Bill when the policeman came—I showed him the list, and the notes, and the prisoner was given into custody.

Cross-examined. Q. A great many country notes pass through your hands I suppose? A. Yes.

MR. METCALFE. Q. Supposing you had not found them in this list, and had been disposed to change them, what is the commission? A. 2d. in the pound.

ALFRED CARTER (City-policeman, 48). I was sent for by Mr. Dukes on 11th May—I went there, found the prisoner, and took him into custody—Mr. Dukes showed me those notes, and the list—Mr. Dukes said he should give the prisoner in charge for having stolen notes in his possession—I said to the prisoner, "Do you understand the charge?"and he nodded—I told him he must go with me to the station—on the way there, he asked me whether he was charged with having stolen the notes, or whether the notes were Bad—I told him they were stolen notes—he said if they had been stolen during the last thirteen weeks, he could account for his time; if previous to that, he could not—he said nothing more till we got to the station

—he was there asked his name and address; he gave it, Joseph Fulton, Al Bion Cottage, Lewisham, Kent—he called himself a jeweller—he was asked by the station sergeant how he accounted for the possession of the notes, and he stated that he had bought them of a money-changer in Paris—he was asked where he bought them, and he did not know the name of the street, or of the person—he said he gave twenty-six francs (a pound) for them—he said that he wanted Bank of England notes; but the money-changer in Paris said that these notes were as good as Bank of England notes in England, and he would have to pay more for the others—he paid 10d. in the pound instead of 1s.—I found some letters on the prisoner—one addressed to Mrs. Poole, 6, A B Bott's-cottages, Lewisham, Kent, and one to Manchester—the prisoner is an Englishman, I believe—he was asked where he was Born, and he stated in England—I took him from Seething-lane to Bow-lane Police-station; and on the way there, he said it was a delicate position for a respectable man to be placed in; that he had been a political prisoner in France, and was only discharged on the Wednesday previous; that he received six sovereigns and some jewellery from the police authorities in France; that he sold the jewellery, and with 5l., which his wife sent him, he bought the four notes in question—he said that, under circumstances of this kind, no respectable man was safe to come to England with country notes in his possession—he was asked at Bow-lane Police-station whether he lived at Albion Cottage, Lewisham, Kent—he stated that he did not; but that his sister lived there, ands he was a respectable woman—he was then asked if he lived at 16A, Temple-street, Dalston—he said "Yes;" with his mother-in-law—I found that address in the letter addressed to Manchester—I found that he did live there—he told me his wife lived in the neighbourhood of Dalston but he could not tell me the name of the street, or number, or anything of the kind—that was after he said that he lived at Lewisham.

Cross-examined. Q. You found a passport upon him, did you not? A. At his lodgings; and a Napoleon, and 19s. in money—his sister lives at A B Bott's-cottages, and he gave it Albion Cottage, Lewisham, Kent—he was asked in the ordinary way—I heard him asked where he lived—he said he had just come from France—I have the passport here (produced).

MR. METCALFE. Q. Did you take the charge-sheet? A. Yes; it is there described as "Albion Cottage, Lewisham, Kent"—that was Before, I found the letter—he said, that if the notes were stolen within the last thirteen weeks, he could account for his time; but previous to that, he could not—he did not say why not.

ALEXANDER SAMUEL LESLIE MELVILLE . I am manager of Messrs. Smith and Co.'s Bank, at Lincoln—we had no other 5l. note marked "A D 7275,"on 27th February.

DAVID BILSON . I am a clerk in Messrs. Handley and Co.'s Bank at New ark—we had no other note of the same number and date on 27th February.

BENJAMIN HAGUE DALE . I am sub-manager to the Sheffield Banking Company, at Sheffield—on 27th February, we had no other 5l. note in circulation beside that produced, of the same number and date.

THOMAS LOWE ACTON . I am senior clerk at Messrs. Smith's Bank, at Nottingham—on 27th February, we had no other note of that number and date in circulation.

Cross-examined. Q. I suppose you would not have? A. We take every precaution—we have had two notes of the same number and date once within the last twenty-three years—one number was omitted, and another was doubled.

MICHAEL HAYDON (City-policeman). I have known the prisoner for some

time, by the name of Joseph Bonivarte, Joseph Lewis, and Joseph Montro—I have known him living in the neighbourhood of Shoreditch and Hoxton—I knew him in the last of the three names, three years ago—I have lost sight of him for the last three years—I have known him, but under what circumstances I do not think it right to state.


He was further charged with having been before convicted.

MICHAEL HAYDON . I produce a certificate—(Read: "St. Mary, Newington, 21st January, 1856. Joseph Bonivarte, stealing one watch of John Dodson, from his person. Confined Four Months.") The prisoner is the person mentioned in that certificate—he escaped from the officer, went to America, and was brought back, and tried.

Cross-examined. Q. Do you know he was in America? A. have reason to believe he was—I did not apprehend him in 1856—I was present at his trial—he only had four months—I gave evidence on that occasion—I did not then say that I did not know anything previously against him—I do not know that he went to America again—I have reason to believe that he did not—I know, from what I have been told, that he was at Bath; not of my own knowledge—he has not been tried since then—I have a warrant in my pocket now, for his apprehension, for an offence committed at Bath—I knew him when he was tried—I have known him seven or eight years.

GUILTY .*— Confined Eighteen Months .

FOURTH COURT.—Thursday, June 13th, 1861.


Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-515
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceNo Punishment > sentence respited

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515. ANN MARIA M'CABE (50) , Feloniously wounding Abraham Lowenthall, with intent to do him some grievous bodily harm.

MR. LLOYD conducted the Prosecution.

ABRAHAM LOWENTHALL . I am a tailor, in Fishmonger-alley—the prisoner worked for me two or three years, and continued doing so up to three years ago—I have seen her occasionally since—on 28th May last, I was walking through Billiter-square with a workman of mine, taking some work home, when I received a heavy Blow with this iron instrument (produced), which knocked my hat off and cut my ear open—I bled very much—I turned round and found the prisoner behind me aiming a second Blow, but I seized it, and a struggle took place—a policeman came up and he assisted me in taking her in charge—she said, "You villain," or some word like that, "you have deprived me of my work; I have got my discharge from Mr. Freeman in Lom Bard-street"—she did not say anything more then—I cannot swear whether the policeman took the instrument from me or from her—I had great pain for a few days from the Blow—I am quite recovered now.

Prisoner. Q. Did not the policeman take the weapon from you? A. cannot say—I did not stop your work at Mr. Freeman's, and get him on the Saturday night to discharge you—I had nothing to do with it—I never knew where you worked—I have seen Mr. Freeman since.

HENRY TRINDER (City-policeman, 586). On 28th May last, I was in Billiter-square, and saw the last witness and the prisoner struggling together—she had this weapon in her hand—I had some difficulty in getting it away from her—he was defending himself—they both had hold of this instrument—the prosecutor was bleeding very much from the side of his

head—I took the instrument away and took the prisoner into custody—she was very much excited and appeared in a great passion—she said it was a case of conspiracy, and that Mr. Lowenthall had been the means of getting her work away.

Prisoner. Q. Did not you take the weapon from him? A. No; you both had hold of it.

Prisoner. The prosecutor whispered to him in the court to say that it was in my hand, and that he took it from me.

COURT. Q. Did he whisper to you about that? A. No; nothing of the sort.

The prisoner's statement before the Magistrate was here read as follows:—"He has been stopping my work for the last twenty years—there is a conspiracy against me."

The prisoner, in her defence, made a rambling statement, which was to the effect that there was a conspiracy against her, and that the prosecutor had deprived her of work.


JAMES GANN , a hosier, stated that the prisoner had worked for his father for twelve years, and the whole of that time she used severe and threatening language, and used to come to the house with dangerous instruments, and that she once came with a carving-knife and threatened to murder his father. Judgment respited .

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-516
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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516. JANE FISHER (32) , Feloniously cutting and wounding Elizabeth Maria Pool, with intent to do her grievous bodily harm.

MR. SHARPE conducted the Prosecution.

ELIZABETH MARIA POOL . I am the wife of William John Pool, of 12, Lower Fenton-street, shoemaker—the prisoner lives at 29, Duke-street, St. George's-in-the-East—that is some distance from my house—I have been acquainted with her for eighteen months, previously to the 22d May—we have quarrelled on more than one occasion—on 21st May we had a quarrel and fought, at about 2 o'clock in the afternoon—I did not see her again till the 22d—about 9 o'clock in the evening, I was passing along Duke-street, St. George's-in-the-East, with Jane Bouten, another young woman, and I felt a stab in my shoulder—I had not seen the prisoner before that—I did not say anything to her then—I never saw her—I did not know which way she could have come—after I felt the stab I remembered no more till I found myself in a doctor's shop in Charles-street, and then my wounds were partly dressed—I did see her before I was insensible—I cannot say whether she had anything in her hand or not—I found afterwards that I had received seven wounds—I was very weak from loss of Blood.

Cross-examined by H. GIFFARD. Q. Are you occasionally a little hasty yourself? A. Not on that day; we had not had any words—I have not had a little difference with another woman—I have never had a summons taken out against me, except that Mrs. Fisher took a summons out on the Tuesday—my mother has never taken out a summons against me—I have had quarrels with the prisoner, not frequently of late—I have never called her a mare; that was what she called me—I did not call her a cow; she has called me very bad names—I did not feel anything or know she was there until I felt myself stabbed in the shoulder—nothing happened that I am aware of immediately after that.

JANE BOUTEN . I am single, and live at 9, Patriot-street, Commercial-road, St. George's-in-the-East—I was walking with the prosecutrix on the evening of 22d May, at about 9 o'clock, in Duke-street, and talking to her—I did not see Mrs. Fisher come up to her; she came all of a sudden

and pushed me on one side, and I thought she was pushing Mrs. Pool, but instead of that she was stabbing her—I saw her give her two Blows with the knife—I saw the knife at the second Blow—the prisoner said, "You B—y whore, I have got you now," and then she stabbed her again—that was after she had struck her in the shoulder—she stabbed her five times, I think, after that—at the fourth stab I saw the blood come from the back of her head, and the back of her neck—I did not see the prosecutrix so anything—she Bent her head down and prevented the knife going in the front of her neck, and put her arm up, and that is how she received the stab in the shoulder—she also received a stab in her hand—she then fell on the ground—I saw a man come up and pull the prisoner's arm back—when the prosecutrix fell on the ground the prisoner was stabbing her, as she fell; she kept on stabbing her—she stabbed her once after she fell down—a person named McKenzie then came up—the prisoner was secured and the knife taken away—nobody screamed out—there was nobody near—I was as frightened as Mrs. Pool—I did not catch hold of the prisoner, I was too frightened—I caught hold of Mrs. Pool to try to save her from falling—she was then taken to a chemist's shop down Charles-street—that is all I know of the matter—the prosecutrix had not said or done anything at all to the prisoner before I saw these stabs—I am quite sure of that.

Cross-examined. Q. Was the first notice you got, the pushing? A. Yes—I saw the prisoner give her four stabs—I saw the knife touch her each time—I know the prosecutrix, but the prisoner I never saw Before—they were both quite sober—I am sure the prisoner was quite sober, because I saw her about a quarter of an hour afterwards, going to the station—I did not know anything about their having quarrelled—I had been with Mrs. Pool about five minutes—it was in the evening—before that she had been putting her two children to Bed—I Walked from her home with her.

ROBERT ASKEW . I am a labourer, and live at 6, Starling-street, St. George's-in-the-East—on the evening of 22d May I was standing opposite the Star, in Duke-street, St. George's, at about a quarter to 9 o'clock—I saw Pool and Bouten together—in about three or four minutes after that I saw Mrs. Pool and the prisoner fighting, and I ran across the road to part them—they were fighting, as I thought, till I got across the road, and when I got across I saw that Mrs. Fisher had a knife—I did not see her do anything with it, I only saw that it was all over blood—I laid hold of her by the arm and said, "You have stabbed the woman"—Mrs. Pool was at that time on the ground—I saw her fall before I got up to them—I did not say anything else—the prisoner said, "I know that; I've done it, and I meant to do for another one, for they have scandalized me and taken nay character away"—during this time McKenzie came up and took the knife from her—I cannot say whether it was the commencement of it that I saw—I cannot swear that I saw the prosecutrix strike the prisoner at all—before I went across the road I saw them fighting together, as I thought—I cannot say whether they were fighting one another, or whether one was trying to protect herself—I did not see Mrs. Pool strike the prisoner.

Cross-examined. Q. Are you quite sure you saw Mrs. Fisher strike Mrs. Pool? A. Yes; once—they did not appear to be fighting two minutes before I came up—I only ran across the road—I dare say it was half a minute—there seemed to me to be a struggle before they fell—I saw the knife, and the blood coming from Mrs. Pool—I held the prisoner—I know both the prosecutrix and the prisoner as neighbours—from what I have heard, they have both been at variance a good while—they both seemed to me to be sober at this time.

THOMAS MCKENZIE . I live at 11, Star-street, St. George's-in-the-East, and am a deal porter, in the employment of the Commercial Dock Company—I was at the Star, in Duke-street, on the evening of 22d May, at about 9 o'clock, or a little Before—the first I saw was the prisoner and prosecutrix both on the ground—they had hold of each other by the hair—I went to part them, and saw the knife in the prisoner's hand—that is all I know of it—there was no Blood that I saw on it—I gave the knife to Mr. Pool, the husband of the prosecutrix—I believe this (produced) to be it.

COURT. Q. Did you see Mrs. Pool have hold of Mrs. Fisher's hair. A. Yes—I cannot exactly swear with which hand—I will swear she had with one—Mrs. Pool was in a very exhausted state when I had taken the knife from Mrs. Fisher—I do not believe she had lost her senses—she was exhausted with loss of Blood, I think—I did not see Blood—I saw she was in a very exhausted state, lying on the ground—I cannot say whether Askew was there before me—I did not see him—I did not hear Askew speaking to Mrs. Fisher—I was in the Star public-house, along with another young man—I did not see him catch hold of her arm, and say, "You have stabbed her"—that did not happen after I got there, that I am aware of—(THE COURT here read part of Askew's evidence to the witness)—I did not hear any of that—I must have heard it if it passed when I was there.

MR. SHARPE. Q. Was there a crowd there? A. Yes—a crowd would collect very rapidly there.

Cross-examined. Q. Did you have any opportunity of observing whether the parties concerned in this were sober? A. No, they were not; neither of them—the prosecutrix was rather tipsy, and the prisoner also.

MR. SHARPE. Q. When you say you only saw the prosecutrix on the ground, and she appeared to be exhausted from loss of blood, how can you say you believe she was in liquor? A. Because I saw her half an hour before this occurrence took place—I saw her at the prisoner's door; both she and Mr. Pool too—I never said that before; they would not hear it at the Thames Police-court.

DONALD MCKAY (Policeman, K 275). From information I received, I apprehended the prisoner on the night of 22d May, at Duke-street, St. George's, in the street, near the Star public-house, about 150 yards from the prosecutrix's house—I took her in custody, and told her it was on a charge of stabbing Mrs. Pool—she said, "I meant it"—I told her to be careful what she said—she said, "Her and another woman have scandalized me for this last twelvemonth"—I cautioned her both before and after that—I told her to be careful what she said; anything she said would be used in evidence against her—I then took her to the station-house—on her way there she said, "I hope she is dead; I will die happy in Newgate."

Cross-examined. Q. Do you happen to know, of your own knowledge, whether she expressed sorrow for her language and conduct? A. Yes, she did the next morning.

COURT. Q. Was she sober when you took her into custody? A. She was very much excited, but sober.

JOHN BROWN ROSS . I am a physician and surgeon, of 56, High-street, Shadwell—on Wednesday evening, 22d May, I was called to the police-station at King David-lane, to attend on the prosecutrix—I saw her at about 9 o'clock or a little after—I examined her and found she was suffering from seven wounds on different parts of the body—I found the first on the top back part of the head, about an inch and a half in length, extending to the bone—the second was at the lower part of the back of the head, five inches

in length, and down to the bone—the third was on the left arm, near the shoulder, an inch in length and three-quarters of an inch in depth—the next was on the back part of the right shoulder, half an inch in length and an inch and a half in depth—the next was on the left side of the neck, half an inch in length and the same in depth—the next was on the left eye brow, at the outer angle—it was a quarter of an inch in length, but superficial—the next was on the left hand, between the thumb and forefinger, about half an inch in length and a quarter of an inch in depth—she was pregnant, between five and six months—I consider that three of those wounds were of a dangerous character; the extensive one at the back part of the head, five inches long, and the one at the left side of the neck, and the one at the back of the right shoulder—she appeared exhausted from having lost a large quantity of blood—I considered that her life was in danger at that time—she is quite recovered now—such a knife as this would inflict those wounds—there are smears of blood on it now.

Cross-examined. Q. Show me whereabouts the wound on the finger and thumb was? A. Just here—it would be the sort of wound that could Be done by a person catching hold of a knife.

MR. SHARPE to DONALD MCKAY. Q. From whom did you receive the knife? the prosecutrix's husband. GUILTY .

It was stated that the prisoner and prosecutrix were continually quarrelling, fighting, and using bad language towards each other; that the prosecutrix was in the habit of annoying and provoking the prisoner, and had done so during the whole of the day in question; the police also stated that they had been frequently called to the prisoner's house, in consequence of the prosecutrix and her friends going there to annoy her.

Confined Twelve Months .

OLD COURT.—Friday, June 14th, 1861.


For the case of Francis Perrito, tried this day, see Surrey Cases.

NEW COURT.—Friday and Saturday, June 14th and 15th, 1861.


Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-517
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown; Guilty > with recommendation

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517. WILLIAM CRANE (41), PETER DEBOCK (34), JOSEPH BARKER (29), and JOHN NEWTON (59) , Stealing 10 bales of silk, value 800l., the property of the St. Katherine's Dock Company, in a barge on the Thames. Other Counts, for feloniously receiving the same.

MESSRS. GIFFARD and POLAND conducted the prosecution.

ROBERT THOMAS . I am a tallyman employed at the West India Docks—on 9th or 10th March the ship Solvents arrived there from Shanghaye with a cargo of silk—on 13th March I tallied 413 Bales of silk from the Solent into the Barge Dorville, Belonging to Henry Gray—this (produced) is the Book for the delivery of goods from the quay into the Barge—these entries are in my writing; they are copies of the Custom House order, which the Customs

have now got—I made them from a copy of the manifest which is the contents of the ship, and is made from the contents, by the Company's servants—I had one given to me at the dock—the manifest is not here—the numbers are in the other Book; I tick off the Bales as they pass me into the Barge—my attention has been called to ten of the Bales, they were all marked RF + RF, and were numbered 2,132, 2,028, 2,377, 2,153, 2,179, 2,136, 2,154, 2,156, 2,394, and one marked "L and Co.," in a diamond, with a small 99 over the top of the diamond and No. 7—I am able to say that those ten Bales were put into the Barge Dorville on 15th March—the loading of that Barge was completed by about a quarter past 4 in the after-noon, and it was moved away from the quay by Mr. Gray's men, for the purpose of being taken to St. Katherine's Dock—the docks adjoin the river Thames.

Cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH. Q. Did you make these entries before the goods were paid over into the craft? A. At the time—they were shipped from the quay, not over the ship's side—they had been transferred from the ship to the quay before I made any entry at all.

WILLIAM WALLER . On 13th March I was in the employ of Henry Gray, and was at the West India Docks in charge of the Barge Dorville and 411 Bales of silk—the Barge was loaded about a quarter-past 4, after which I moved her away from the quay into the tidal Basin, and left her fastened alongside one of the quays by a chain on the shore, so that any person could step into her—I left her at about a quarter-past 5—about half-past I in the night I took her out into the river with the tide and into St. Katherine's Dock—I left her from half-past 3 till quarter a to 4.

ANTHONY GRANT . I am a labourer, in the service of the St. Katherine's Dock Company—on the morning of 14th March, between 8 and 9 o'clock, the Barge Dorville was brought alongside one of the quays for the purpose of being unloaded—when I came to unload her I found a vacant space—the other parts of the Barge, except that vacant space, were all closely packed—the Bales near the vacant space were thrown about instead of being packed in the usual way—it is my opinion that if they had been stowed in the ordinary way, it would have held another ten Bales—the Barge was unloaded that morning.

JOHN FREDERICK MARTIN . I am assistant foreman at the St. Katherine's Docks—it was part of my duty to tally the Bales of silk out of the Dorville for the purpose of their being taken to the Cutler-street warehouse—I tallied them from first to last—I found 401, and there ought to have been 411; there were ten gone—I gave information of it immediately upon sending the last load to Cutler-street.

ELIZABETH ROSINA GARDNER . I am the wife of Thomas Gardner, and live at 11, George-street, Brick-lane, Spitalfields—in March last I lived at 2, Hope-street, Spitalfields, the house of the prisoner Barker—I occupied the first-floor front room, for which I paid him 3s. 6d. ask—he kept in his own occupation the two down-stairs parlours, and the back washhouse—I remember a van coming to the door one Friday night, a week before I left the house; it was between half-past 9 and 10 o'clock—I was sitting by the window—I do not remember the date of my leaving the house—it was a light van, with one horse, and covered with a tarpaulin—I saw ten Bales of something come out—I did not know whether it was silk, or what it was—the Bales were about a yard long, good sized Bales, square; about a yard each way from what I could see of them—I cannot say what sort of a covering they had—it was a dark material; Brown—it was not a wet night that I am

aware of—the ten Bales which were taken out of the van were taken into the house down stairs—there were two men taking them in, but I do not know who they were—Barker was at work at home at the time—I know that, because just before the van came up I saw him at work in the washhouse; and I heard him at work—he generally used to work all night on Friday nights, or very late at any rate—this was a Friday night—he continued working this night as usual—next morning I looked in the wash-house and the Bales were not there—at the time the Bales were unloaded I heard him say "Quick," that was all—the van drove away when they were unloaded—the men were not dressed like carmen—the Bales were in the front parlour—I did not see them in the back nor in the front—I supposed they were in the front because I looked in the back, and in the washhouse and could not see them there—they were not brought up stairs—I did not try to look in at the front parlour—if I had tried I could have seen through the window whether the Bales were there—the Blind was about four or five inches from the top of the Bottom curtain—By putting my head down and looking between there I could have seen—I did not look in that way—I did not see Mrs. Barker do anything when the Bales came—I did not see her at all—I did not see her go across the road after they had come—on the next Monday, the 18th, I saw another van come up—it was one of Pickford's vans; two men and a Boy came with it—I saw the Bales taken out of the house and put in—that was about half-past four in the afternoon—on that occasion I saw Mrs. Barker go across the road to the chandler's shop on the other side of the road, and get a pen—I think 11s. 6d. a week was what Barker paid as the rent of his house—I have heard from him that De Bock was his Brother-in-law.

Cross-examined by MR. COOPER. Q. What were you doing at the window on this evening? A. Merely sitting by the window; not working or anything—there was nothing to prevent me from going and looking in at the front window of the parlour—if I had gone there I might have seen—I had been with Barker about ten months—his family consisted of a wife and two children—he is expecting another child every day—since I have been there he has been a hard-working man—he was working the Saturday and Sunday after this Friday—on the Monday he was at a funeral—it was his habit to do all he could to rear his family by industry and hard labour—he worked in the little place Behind—I aid not employ him as a shoemaker—there was a door in the passage to prevent people going into that workshop of his,—it was generally shut when he was at work—t cannot say whether, when these things came in, it was shut as usual—when you enter the house there is a long passage to go down, with a door on the left hand side to go into the parlour at, and then a further passage leading on to the washhouse—the passage is a good length—all the time I lived with him I saw but one con-duct, that of industry—on the Monday when I saw the van come and the goods placed in it, Barker was at a funeral—he came home, I think, about 6 in the evening—he did not go to work that evening as usual he want out—Mrs. Barker is Debock's sister.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. How do you know the prisoner was at a funeral on the Monday? A. Because my husband asked for him, and Mrs. Barker said he had gone to a funeral.

WILLIAM TOOTH . I am a carman in the service of Messrs. Pickford, the carriers—I have known Crane eight or nine years, and knew that he was employed at Drakeford's, in Great Winchester-street—on 18th March I met him at the end of Great Winchester-street, and he asked me if I would go

and fetch ten Bales of silk from No. 2, Hope-street; that he should Be there as soon as I was, and would give me a shilling—I had my van with me—I took it to No. 2, Hope-street, straight off—that is three or four miles from Great Winchester-street—Crane was not there when I got there, but he was coming down the street, when a man opened the door of No. 2 for me, and I went in and looked at the Bales in the front room—the address on each of them was "John Newton, Derby"—I got one into my van before Crane arrived; the man who opened the door helped me to load them—we got the ten Bales into the van—I believe the man who opened the door, and who assisted me, to be De Bock—I was not told where to take the things—I drove the van away, leaving the man there, and called at seventeen or eighteen other places—I had to go to Drakeford's, where Crane was employed—I call there every night—Crane gave me a delivery note for them at Hope-street, but I found I had lost it when I got to Camden station—I went back to the office to see if it was dropped there, but it was not there—I saw enough to say that it was for ten Bales of silk, but I did not take particular notice of it—I doubled it and put it in my pocket—next evening I told Crane I had lost my delivery note, and wished him to give me another, but he refused—he said that it was not required—I said that it was required, but he would not make me one—I said, "I cannot make you if you will not"—I have known Drakeford's place, in Great Winchester-street, ever since I have been at Pickford's; eleven years—I was promised a shilling—the ordinary sum is sometimes two pence, sometimes fourpence—I took a shilling off the counter in Hope-street—I do not know which of them laid it down.

Cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH. Q. Of course you well knew the Messrs. Drakeford's where Crane was? A. Yes—I have been in the habit of going there every day for years—when I arrived at Hope-street I had no goods my van—after I had put these ten Bales in, I went with them in the ordinary course of Business to Drakeford's and other places, and put other articles in till I got to the Camden station—these ten Bales did not occupy a quarter of the van—the next cases put in would be Drakeford's—I sometimes receive more than a shilling, sometimes less—that is a gratuity for going out of the way—no sum is paid to me for conveyance—I put the delivery order in my pocket in the ordinary way, and missed it when I got to Camden station—I left the goods there, stopped at Camden-town all night, and saw Crane again next evening, when I went to Drakeford's.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT PARRY. Q. Is Hope-street a silk neighbourhood? A. There are a great many silk merchants and weavers—I have been employed in carrying silk for these eight or nine years—mine is a collecting van—it is very common for me to be told to go and take up silk—I cannot positively swear to De Bock being the person who assisted, though I was there about ten minutes—I do not know Debock at all—it was about half-past 4 when I left Hope-street—there are forty or fifty houses there—I am not well known in Spitalfields—it was Pickford's van.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. You say that you went out of the way to Hope-street, how do you mean? A. Old Broad-street and Winchester-street is my round—that is the silk district—I have no particular orders confining me to one district—I am engaged from half-past 3 in the day till the evening trains—my time is up at Camden-town about 8.

COURT. Q. Did you ever go to Hope-street for silk Before? A. No—Crane meeting me in the street was accidental—I was driving my van up the street, and he was coming out of Old Broad-street to the left—he met

me and stopped me—I was going to Drakeford's then—I walk all round the trade to see where I need call—it was just as I was about to commence my round that Crane came up.

WILLIAM HOLLOWAY (Police-inspector, H). On 22d March, between 3 and 4 in the afternoon, I went to Messrs. Drakeford's warehouse in plain clothes—I saw Crane, and said that I wanted to see Mr. Crane—I did not know him—he said, "My name is Crane"—I said, "Will you come out into the passage; I want to speak to you"—I told him my name, and that I was an inspector of police, and said, "I have come to make inquiry about ten Bales of silk that you sent into the country last Monday"—he said, "Oh, yes; you mean from Hope-street, Spitalfieids"—I said, "Yes; have they anything to do with your firm, Messrs. Drakeford and Co.?"—he said, "No, they know nothing about them"—I said, "I wish you to tell me, then, what you know about them; you had Better Be careful what you say"—he said, "A strange man met me at the of the street last Monday, and asked me which was the Best way to send some goods into the country; I said, "What goods are they?" he said, "Bales of silk;" I said, 'Pickford and Co.' He said, 'If you will go with me to Hope-street, Spitalfieids, I will give you three or four shillings for your trouble;' I went with Crane to Hope-street, Spitalfieids, thinking it was no harm, as it was a friend assisting a friend"—I said, "Now who was this man?"—he said, "He is a perfect stranger to me; I never saw her before or since"—I told him I should have to take him in custody, and I took him to the Leman-street police-station.

WILLIAM MORRISS . I keep the Crown and Cushion Tavern, 73, London wall, at the corner of Winchester-street—that is two or three hundred yards from Messrs. Drakeford's—I have known Newton about nine years—he has been in the habit of using my house, staying there while in London—I know Crane; he came there occasionally—Newton stayed in my house for eight or nine days in March—he left on Monday, 18th March, about 4 o'clock in the afternoon—I know Agg and Hunter—Agg keeps the Clown public-house, St. John's-road, Clerkenwell, near Sadler's Wells—Hunter keeps the Reindeer public house, Cambridge Heath-road—I have heard that that is the sign of it—during the eight days before 18th March, that Newton was staying at my house, Agg and Hunter came there and saw Newton for a short time—they were both there on Saturday, and Newton left on the Monday—they may have been there once besides; I cannot say—Crane saw Newton two or three times, and spoke to him.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Is Mr. Newton Lalarge throwster? A. Yes; and also a Broker—he lives at Derby—I have known Agg for a considerable time—I knew him very well when he was in Messrs. Drakeford's employment, and I know as a fact that Newton had large dealings with Drakeford at that time—I have heard Newton and others say, that after Agg had left Drakeford's he intended to act for himself as a Broker of silk—Bales of thrown silk Belonging to Newton have been at my house, and delivered to Agg after he had left Drakeford's employment—there were a couple of Bags at my house on the 18th, directed To Mr. Agg—Newton lived a good deal at my house; sometimes a fortnight, sometimes a month—I know that he comes up on purpose to Buy silk—he was always highly respectable—he may have taken a little more at my house sometimes than did him good.

MR. GIVPARD. Q. What Became of the two Bags of silk which were at your house on the 18th? A. A carpenter took them to Agg on Monday afternoon, the 18th, by Mr. Newton's directions—I cannot say that I heard

him give those directions, but I saw Mr. Newton stand in the passage, and saw him come and fetch them away—Agg and Newton were standing together in the passage when they were taken away—I did not hear Newton say anything—I do not know where Agg is now—I have not seen him since—I have heard Agg and Newton talking about transactions in buying and selling silk—they seemed on friendly terms—I have seen them together with Hunter, but not so much—Newton sometimes called Hunter Jim Hunter—I do not know where Hunter is—I have not seen him since—I think I heard Newton say that Agg and Hunter were partners, and they appeared to be dealing jointly in these silk transactions—I do not know of any place where they carried on Business together—I knew where they lived respectively—they both kept public-houses.

CHARLES ROWBOTHAM . I keep the George Inn at Derby, which is two or three minutes' walk from the station—I remember the mail train coming from London, on Tuesday, 19th March, that is the night of the 18th, about 1 o'clock in the morning—a few minutes after it arrived, De Bock and Barker came to my house, and Debock asked if they could have a Bed—my wife said that she had only one Bed at liberty, but would accommodate the other on a sofa, if he chose to accept of it, which he did—in a short time Newton came in, but they took no perceptible notice of him or he of them—my wife gave Debock a candle to go up stairs, while I was standing at the entrance to the hall by the staircase—I heard Debock say to my wife, "I know that gentleman standing at the Bar-door, but he does not know me; do not tell him that I have been asking about him, or he will Be asking to see me"—Newton was the gentleman standing at the door—Debock had not been previously asked anything about Newton—I did not hear Newton saw a word about where he had come from—I did not know for a fact that he had—I did not hear it from him-next morning I called Barker—he told me to call his friend, and I called Debock—I asked him his friend's name and he told me, Debock—they had Breakfast together—Debock asked the servant-maid, who attended the Breakfast table, where Mr. Newton's mill was—she did not know, and asked me, and I went in to them, and told them where it was—Debock then paid their Bill and they went away—they returned about 8 o'clock that evening, asked for a glass of ale each, which they drank, and asked for two more—Debock came across the vault, drew a 100l. Bank of England note out of a pocket-Book, from among some other notes—it was doubled up in four quarters—he showed me the "100l." and asked me to spell it for him—I said, "It is a 100l."—he said, "Thank you, I am much obliged to you; I cannot read your English notes"—he spoke in a Broken foreign accent—I said, "Excuse me, just allow me to look at that note again, if you please; there are a great many notes going about now that are forgeries"—he gave it me—I looked at it, as I wanted the number of it—I returned it to him, and said, "I believe it is good"—I said, "Have you received it in a Business transaction?"—he said, "Yes"—I said, "Have you received it in Derby?"—he said, "Yes"—I said, "Then if you have been doing Business to this amount, you ought to know what the amount of the note is without asking me—do you know the party that you have been doing Business with?"—he said, "I do not"—I was taken away to wait on another customer, over the counter, and he said, "I Beg your pardon, I did not take it in a Business transaction; I have given change for it, cash, notes, and gold"—I said, "To a stranger; have you given your good money to a stranger for a piece of paper you do not know the value of, whether it

is worth anything or nothing?"—he said, "I have done so and I cannot help it; that is the case"—I gave information to the police the same evening.

COURT. Q. Did these two people go away from your house? A As I turned my back I found they were gone, and had left their two glasses of ale standing untouched—that was from half-past 9 to 10 o'clock—they had sat in the vaults for some length of time—we saw them in custody about twenty minutes to 12 that night, and saw the same pocket-Book taken from Debock's pocket.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT PARRY. Do you say he said that he knew Mr. Newton, but Mr. Newton did not know him? A. Yes; my wife had been speaking of Mr. Newton by his name—he gave her a shilling to pay for two glasses of ale which he had ordered to be filled—another party called for a glass at the same time—my wife said to Mr. Newton, "What am I to take out of this?": wondering whether she was to take for two glasses or three—one of my servants did not mention his name also—they had all gone to Bed—Mr. Sperry, my next door neighbour, got up and shook hands with him across the table, and said, "How do you do, Mr. Newton?" and he said, "How do you do, Mr. Sperry?"—that was before the prisoners spoke—they had an opportunity of hearing him spoken of as Mr. Newton—in speaking about the note he assumed a foreign accent, but he could speak English well—I was not two minutes in the room, but I knew very well that he had spoken English Before—he got up at 8, and went away between 9 and 10.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. How far does Mr. Newton live from your house? A. About a hundred yards—my house is about central, between his and the station—he generally looks in when he comes down by the train, and has told me that he has come from London—there are no cabs there unless they are specially engaged—he used not to have his portmanteau carried up to his house by my porters—he would get some of the men from the station—the glass of ale he paid for was for the porter—I saw no recognition between them, appreciable by any one in the room—I have lived in that street nine years, and have known Newton perhaps six years, carrying on a very extensive Business, I believe—I never heard anything against his character—he did not appear that evening to have been drinking anything out of the way—I am not aware that he was rather in the habit of exceeding—he actually passed my house to go home—mine is not the only house open at that time of night—there is another opposite the station—I do not know that he was always in the habit of using mine—he came in perhaps once a month, or something like that—the porter came with him on that occasion, to whom he gave a glass of ale—he had no portmanteau; I heard that he had lost it; that it had gone to Leeds by the train.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. The train divides at Leicester, I believe? A. It does—the Derby portion of the passengers have to get into certain carriages—they are unhooked before getting on to the Derby platform, and the northern passengers go forward—I did not hear from Newton that the portmanteau had gone on—I believe the porter to whom he gave the glass of ale, was one of the porters of the railway—his name is John Gutteridge—Newton has been in an extensive way of Business for some years at Derby as a silk throwster.

ROBERT BARTLETT . I am a policeman, employed at the Midland Railway-station, at Derby—the mail train from London arrives at Derby, at 12.15—I am on duty when it arrives—I remember the mail train arriving that

left London on the 18th—I was then on duty on the platform—there was a passenger carriage and four second-class passengers; three of whom were in one compartment—they were Debock, Barker, and Newton—I saw them get out—my attention was called to Newton, because he had not his ticket; and I saw him at the Booking-office window, which is the place to pay when a person loses a ticket—it is not my duty to collect the tickets—Debock asked me if there was any place where he could stay—I told him that he could stop up above, pointing to Row Botham's house—I saw him go in that direction—Barker went with him—Newton left the station some short time after—he had to go to the station-master's office previous to paying his fare, to give some directions there—I saw Debock and Barker come to the station the same night, about half-past 9 or 10 o'clock—Debock asked me what time the mail-train left for London—I said, "12.35"—they then went away.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. How many people came down by that train? A. Four passengers—there was only one second-class carriage—there were two second compartments, and a first—my duty is to assist in any way that I think right—I do not take the tickets—my duty is to notice who goes in and out of the station, and to take anybody's luggage—I watch everybody—I stand and notice whoever comes in and out of that station—it is the duty of one of the porters to take the tickets: a man named Gutteridge, I do not know whether he is here; I believe I have seen him outside—I do not know whether I am supposed to tell you—that was why I said I did not know—I do not know that I answered you a falsehood deliberately, and I do not know that I care—I was not aware that I was telling a falsehood—I have heard Gutteridge state that Newton was alone in the compartment, but not that he came with him from the station, standing on the step of the carriage all the way—Gutteridge was a ticket-collector that night, whose duty it was to come up in the train—I have heard since that Taylor was the guard—I did not see him at the time—I have not heard that Taylor has also said that Newton came up in the compartment with him—I believe Taylor is here—I have not said that I did not care if I could only get my spoon into this affair; that I should get 10l. about it—I have said nothing of the kind in the presence of Gutteridge—I have never taken any particular notice of the date when I have been examined.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. What is it you have heard that Gutteridge has said? A. I have heard that he has said that they did not come in the same compartment—there has been a deal of talking about it—I remember Fern coming to my house, either on Good Friday morning, or Easter Sunday morning—I heard of a conversation between Gutteridge and Fern, on the Wednesday morning—I heard that Gutteridge said he could not recollect how they came.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Are you still in the employment of the railway company? A. Yes.

DANIEL WILCOXON . I am a guard in the employment of the Midland Rail-way Company—on the night of the 18th, or morning of the 19th, I was in Leicester station when the mail-train arrived, sitting on the platform to go home by it—all the passengers for Derby, that come from London, have to change at Leicester into a different carriage—two composite carriages that night started for Derby—one was for Leeds, and the other for Derby—I saw Newton on the platform, and two persons with him whom I did not know—I took more notice of Newton because he was drunk—I did not know his name then—Leicester is 29 3/4 miles from Derby—Newton asked if the carriage was for Derby—somebody said, "Yes"—the two persons assisted him into

the second-class carriage, and I went to assist in getting the parcel out of the van—the train stopped at Lough Borough; and there is a junction at Derby—there was one first-class passenger, and two other passengers, but they were for Loughborough—the entire number of passengers for Derby was four—they were in the hind compartment—I saw that the two, who said they were for Loughborough, got out there—I saw Bartlett on the platform at Derby—when the two persons were in the compartment with Newton, Newton was in the middle, and he was the biggest of the three.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Were you going back as passenger? A. Yes—I had to go to Leeds, and from Leeds to Leicester—I did not go in the carriage, I got into the Break—there were six passengers by the train—I was not drunk—I had three glasses of ale at Leicester—I was not at all the worse for liquor—I asked these persons whether they were for Derby, and they said, "Yes"—Taylor was the guard of the train—I did not get into the carriage at all—I have never said, when inquiry was made, that I was asleep, and knew nothing about it—you are to understand that I was not in any carriage—I went to sleep between Loughborough and Derby—I did not go to sleep between Debock and the other man—the ticket collector did not awaken me, and request my ticket—the guard awoke me—I have been examined Before—I did not appear before the Magistrate—Inspector Fearn asked me to appear on Saturday night—he met me on the platform, and told me he should most likely want me, and asked me if I had just come down by the train—I come down by the train every night for one week in eight—I knew the time, because it was the first night that I worked the train—when I got to Derby, it was mentioned that Mr. Newton had been robbed—I said, "What a pity; because if I had known it, I could have caught him."

ALEXANDER CLARK . I am cashier in the Derby Bank—I know Newton—he kept an account there—I produce a cheque for 300l., signed by his son, William Bullock Newton—he is authorized to sign for his father—I paid that cheque to his son on the day it Bears date, March 19th, in three 100l. Bank of England notes—I have not got the numbers: we do not take them—we have an issue of our own, and consequently issue comparatively few of these—(Cheque read: "Derby, March 19th, 1861, Derby and Derbyshire Banking Company: Pay F. C. Agg, or Bearer, 300l. p. p.J. Newton W. B. Newton)."—I think that was about 3'o'clock in the agternoon—I know the notes that I paid away—I know the balance in Newton's favour on 18th Mach, by the ledger—it is not here—these are the three 100l. notes (produced).

Cross-examined by MR. SERGEANT BALANTINE. Q. Is ths the degendant's pass-book? A. Yes; it is not made up by me, but in our establishment—the balnce he had on 19th March, was 6,604l. odd—350l. has been pid in since on the 26th—shall I strike the balance, up to the 19th—I make the balance 813l. 15s. 2d.

COURT. Q. Before he was debited? A. Yes—I hace had no instructions to bring my ledger—we call acceptances cash—they are cast to all intents and purposes as cash, and we allow people to draw against it—I know that the bank objects to allow people to draw before their former acceptances have been met—I cannot tell the amount of acceptances as well as of cash—I cannot calculate it—they are not certain—the ledger does not define what are acceptances and what are cash, the bill-book would—I know, in point of fact, that 350l. was paid in on the 22d, and that a portion of that was a cheque by a gentleman, named Rigge—this (produced) is a cheque-book supplied from our house—Mr. Newton passed between 10,000l. and 50,000l. a year through the bank.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. When was this cheque-Book supplied to Mr. Newton A. Near the first date in it, I suppose—there is nothing which, in my knowledge, identifies this check-Book from any other check-Book which we hare given to him.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Are they not numbered? A. No; it is not the custom in country Banks—every cheque in this pass-Book (produced), except one for 220l., of which this is the counterfoil, has been passed through the pass-Book.

COURT. Q. What is the first date? A. March 16th, Self 60l.—the next is 18th March, Self 540l.—this is a stamped cheque-Book, which we charge for—the next cheque is also on the 18th—Al Bur 70l. paid on the 19th; on the 19th here is Agg 300l.; on 22d, Agg 220l.; 21st, Self 10l.; on 22d here is another for 220l. which has never been presented, and Wright 6l. 17s—I was present on the 22d, when Mr. Newton came to the Bank and desired this cheque for 220l., in favour of Agg, not to be paid—here are forty-eight cheques here.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. Does Mr. Newton, in the ordinary course of things; number the counterfoils? A. Not always; he may sometimes—his son does not draw all the cheques, he signs them; we honour cheques by both—the amount of stock against which Mr. Newton was entitled to draw on the 18th, was 229l.—that would have been honoured by our house to a certainty—when the Bank have discounted a Bill, it is put to his credit; that is the object of getting it discounted—the 70l. would have to be deducted—the Balance up to this time is 953l. 15s. 2d.—I have to add both rides and then deduct one from the other—the 70l. has to be included—it had been paid that day, but when I referred to the ledger it had not been posted—before deducting the 370l., the Balance was 883l.—500l. of these Bills was with drawn on the 22d—that was after some notice had been given on this matter—I think you will find the pass-Book is 953l. 15s. 2d., and deducting the 70l., that leaves 883l. 15s. 2d.

BENJAMIN FEARN. I am inspector of police at Derby—in consequence of information I received, I went with Vessey to the railway-station on 9th March, about midnight—I found Barker and Debock in the waiting-room—I asked Debock where he came from and what he was doing there—he said he was not obliged to say—I never heard Barker say anything—I told Debock I wanted to know about a 100l. note that he had shown to Rowbottom a short time Before—he said that he should not show it to me—I told him I was a police-officer—he said, "How do I know that?"—Vessey said, "Here is one of the railway officials here; he knows that we are officers's—he was in uniform—I told Debock that if he did not show it to me, Bf should search him and lock him up—he still refused—I searched him, and in his pocket I found these three 100l. notes (produced)—I said, "How did you come in possession of these?"—he said he had been doing Business with a very respectable firm in Derby—I said, "Who is that firm?"—he said, "Messrs. Newton, silk manufacturers, and I have had the notes from them"—he did not say what for—he said he had been doing Business with them, but did not say in what way—I took Debock and Barker to the station—they both gave me their true address in London—next morning, 20th March, I left them at the police-station, and went to Newton, junior's, between 1 and 2 o'clock—I aroused him, and with him I went down to Newton's—we found him in Bed—his son told him that we had come about the silk, as there was some unpleasantness about it—the son had a good deal of talk with him about the silk, and I told Newton that we had

apprehended two men with three 100l. notes in their possession, who said that they had them from him—he sat on the side of the Bed and looked at his son—he had got his hand in this way, and I thought it was from the effect of drink—he said, "Oh dear, oh dear!"—I was there ten or fifteen minutes, but we had some talk with Mrs. Newton—his son said, "What have you got to say about this?"—Mrs. Newton said, "He is very ill; you had Better leave him for to-night," and we left him—later in the same day, from 9 to 10, I went there again with Superintendent Hilton; that was our second visit to the mill that day—we had an appointment with Mrs. Newton and Mr. Devonport, to meet at Newton's mill, to see what the silk was like—when we got there, young Mr. Newton pointed out a quantity of silk which was lying in the warehouse unpacked—in one Bale which was lying on the floor, he said, "That is the silk that we Bought"—he then produced other silk to Mr. Hilton, and handed him a receipt—he said it was silk which his father had Bought—Newton said that they were to give 14s. a pound for it, and that he gave three 100l. notes and a cheque for 220l. to two persons named Agg and Hunter—Mr. Hilton said, "you have got a receipt for 738l."—Newton, senior, then walked through the doorway, and Newton, junior, said, "Yes, we have got to pay the other by instalments"—he then followed his father—I said to him, "How is it, as you did not make the cheque out in full, that you gave two cheques?"—he had told Mr. Hilton in my presence that the cheque made out on 19th was payable on the 22d—he answered, "I thought we should want the money"—Newton then went out into the street—about 11 o'clock that morning, I went to the Corn-market in Derby, and saw Newton there—I told him that the Magistrates were then sitting, and I should Be glad if he would step over and explain about the silk—he said he should have nothing to do with it—I asked him the second time, and he made a similar answer—I then went before the Magicstrate, and by his direction went after Newton again, as he did not attend; but I could not find him—only four or five minutes elapsed between my seeing him and my trying to find him in the same place—I went back again to the Court, and then Vessey, a policeman, was sent, and came back without him—I did not see Newton, senior, till either Tuesday or Wednesday in the week following, I think—this was on Tuesday—I then saw him at his mill, and heard Mr. Mumford, the superintendent of St Katherine's Docks, who was down at Derby, charge him with stealing a quantity of silk from St. Catherine's Docks—he asked roe whether he might Be allowed to give his wife his watch—his wife was sent for up to the mill, and he handed over the watch—he said, "Fearn, what do you think they will do with me?"—I said, "I cannot say"—he said, "I bought the silk of Fred. Agg and Jim Hunter; they owe me nigh upon 1,000l. and it will Be the ruin of us"—he asked me whether we had got Agg or Hunter—that was before the conversation took place that I have just given, but it was in the same conversation—I said that we had not—he said he knew nothing of those two men that we had got in custody—I had not told him who the men were who were in custody; I had said nothing to him; but he might have heard it.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. You wanted him to go up to the Magistrates? A. Yes—he knew I had these two people in custody—I told young Newton who they were and what names they gave—I do not know whether Mr. Lewis was on the Bench that day—I know Mr. Crompton was the one who gave orders—I know Mr. Lewis is a magic strate—he has a large mill in Derby, not a quarter of a mile from Newton's—they sent Newton up to London without taking any evidence—Mr.

Hilton made a speech an then they sent Newton up to London—It was nearly 1 o'clock when we got to Newton's—he was in Bed—Mrs. Newton came down and let us in—he did not come down—I went up into the Bed-room—he was in Bed, and then he sat on the side of the Bed with nothing but his shirt on—this was on 19th March—he did not say, "We shall Be at the mill in the morning"—he did not speak except to say, "Oh, dear! oh, dear!"—young Newton said, "Father is too ill; we cannot get anything out of him to-night; you see how ill he is; you had Better come in the morning"—it was my impression that he had been drinking—he did not say anything about coming down to the mill—the son said, "We will try to see him in the morning"—on the following morning it was, at the mill, that we saw him—young Newton mentioned the names and addresses of Agg and Hunter, and I went to them—I went up to London—I saw Agg and ascertained from him that he had sold 1,000l. worth—I saw Agg and Hunter each at his own house—I was not satisfied with the account they gave—Hunter said that he had been to Warwick races, and had been round with Agg, but did not know what Business he had transacted—we were not at all satisfied—we did not put a watch on the house till next morning—I did not know then that the silk was stolen—I afterwards found that it had disappeared, and that Hunter and Agg had disappeared also—we have never had the satisfaction of meeting with them since—I never put any watch—Hunter had the invoice of the sale—I am an inspector—Hilton was there at the time of this interview—I have got a good memory—I sometimes take notes—I did of this, but they are at home, at Derby—it was only a few memoranda—I took them to charge my mind with them—I have been up to London Before—I have been to the House of Commons and other places, and this Court too—this is the first Derby case I have had—there was Mr. Frail's case—it was no fault of mine that Mr. Frail stopped that—I think Mr. Leach knows that nothing was said against my character—I took a memorandum to refresh my memory—I did not bring it up—I kept it till my deposition was taken in London—I believe it is at home—I had nothing to do with picking up Wilcoxon—I know what you mean—I went and saw him, by orders, because it was generally reported that he came down by the same train—I have not got a note of it—some of the porters at the railway told me—I believe the name of one is Phipps, and down I went to Wilcoxon and asked him whether he came with these men in the train—I was watching Mr. Leach's house five minutes—I saw two porters go across the market-place a week or ten days ago—Barnett was with us—he said, "There are two of our porters; I should not wonder if they are going to Leach's"—they went by the church, a long way round, instead of taking the short cut, and we stood still till they went in, but did not wait till they came out—we did not then go in and catch Wilcoxon, we had found him Before—I believe we had spoken to Wilcoxon a day or two Before—Frail does not live at Derby now, but I see him occasionally—I do not know what they said to our letting Agg off, it is not the first mistake that has been made.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT PARRY. Q. Was De Bock asleep? A. No, she sat on the seat—at the time that I searched him I made no distinct charge against him—I told him he had been showing the notes under suspicious circumstances, and I should like to know how he Became possessed of them.

Cross-examined by MR. COOPER. Q. Did you search Barker? A. No, nor did I see my Brother officer do so.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. What time was it when you went to see Agg and Hunter? A. We saw Hunter first—I think that was a little after 5 o'clock

in the evening; half-past 5—we got into London at 4 o'clock—we went to Agg some time afterwards; it might Be 8 o'clock or a little after when we saw him, and in consequence of what he said I went back again to Hunter, and then to the Leman-street police-station—that was between 8 and 9 o'clock—I there heard for the first time of the robbery—I went back to Agg and Hunter immediately, and neither of them were to be found—I have not made every effort to find them since, because I have been down in the country.

THOMAS VESSEY . I am a detective officer of the Derby police—on Tuesday, 19th March I was sent for to the George Inn, and saw Mr. Row Botham, the landlord—he made a statement to me, in consequence of which I went with Fearn to the Derby railway-station—Fearn spoke to De Bock, and I asked Barker where he came from—he made no answer at first—I told him we should take him into custody for being in company with De Bock respecting the note—he had told me his name then, and his address—I asked him a second time—the address he gave was 2, Hope-street, London—I searched him and found on him a halfpenny and a farthing—he and De Bock were both looked up that night—on the following morning, Wednesday, the 20th, I took Barker from the Court to gaol, after the examination—they had been remanded for a week—he asked me where I was taking him to—I told him I was going to take him to gaol; that he was remanded for a week while inquiries would be made as regarded how he had spent his time in Derby, and respecting him in London:—he said nothing—when we were conveying them from the gaol to the Town-hall again, Barker asked me if I had been to London—I told him that 1 had not, but that the Superintendent and Inspector Fearn had—he asked me if they had seen his wife or made anything out—I told him they had found the silk to be the proceeds of a robbery at St. Katherine's Docks, and that it had been traced to his house, and then to Derby—I do not think I said where—he Burst out into tears, and said, "I am innocent; my Brother-in-law and two more men asked me to let them bring some goods to our house, which I did, and they brought them on Friday night, between 9 and 10 o'clock, and took them away on the following Monday while I was at a funeral at Highgate"—while before the Magistrate, on the first examination, I was sent out to see for Newton; I could not find him—I then went to his mill and saw him there I entered the counting-house and saw him, and his wife, and son—I told him that he was wanted at the Town-hall, that I was sent by the Magistrate to tell him to come down—he seemed very much put about, and said that he could not go; he was not well, and asked his son to go down—I stayed some short time and tried to persuade him to go down—his son said, "You see how he is; you had Better explain it to them," and I did so—he asked me who they were that we had got, but I did not satisfy him—he asked me if I knew the names, and I said that I did not feel disposed to tell him—he asked me if one was named Agg and the other Hunter—I said, "I do not know"—he said, "What sort of men are they?"—I said, "They are two little men"—he said, "Then I am all right"—young Mr. Newton returned, and Newton said, "I cannot go, you know, and I will not go; you must go down"—no other conversation took place, except that he said he had lost his portmanteau and wished me to make inquiries about it—it was on the 20th that this conversation took place at the mill—after the remand on Wednesday, the 27th, I assisted Hilton at Newton's mill in packing up the silk, with Mr. Mumford, took charge of it, and it was conveyed to the Town hall—I brought Barker up to London on Tuesday, 2nd April, and remained

with him the whole of the time—I did not bring any of the other prisoners—he was very much in trouble all the way—he gave vent to his feeling very much—I told him to keep up his spirits, and said, "De Bock looks Brisk"—Barker said, "Ah! he does not care for home as I do; it is he that lugged me away from home and into this."

GEORGE HILTON . I am head constable of police for the borough of Derby—in consequence of information I received, I went with Inspector Fearn, on the 20th March, to Newton's mill, and saw a large quantity of silk there; his son showed it to us—there were three or four different qualities—it was all mixed together—there was a quantity of silk on the floor, and 109 Books of silk on the side Board, mixed together, different qualities—the quantity on the floor was opened but had not been unpacked—I said, "Now, Mr. Newton, I want you to give me some account of how you Became in possession of this silk," pointing to that which was on the side Board—he made no reply, but kept walking to and fro in the office, and saying, Oh, dear! oh, dear!"—the son said, "The fact is, my father has been to London for some days, and he bought the silk of Messrs. Agg and Hunter;" he produced the receipt, this is it (produced)—I asked him what Agg and Hunter were—he said they were dealers in silk, and kept public-houses in London—I said, "I do not see Hunter's name on this receipt"—he said, "No, sometimes one sells and sometimes the other, for it so happens that people will not Buy of one of them, when they will of the other; they were both here yesterday, and I paid them myself; I gave Agg three 100l. notes, and a cheque for 220l."—I said, "But that does not make 738l."—I turned, and was looking at the silk again, when Newton left the room by a side door which goes into the house—I sent a constable to keep watch that the silk should not Be removed, and then went to the Town-hall; at that time De Bock and Barker were in custody—I had them taken before a magis trate, and they were remanded for a week; they were brought into my outer office on the way to the gaol, while the commitments were made out; they were then conveyed to gaol—I had heard nothing of any robbery of silk at that time—I told De Bock I was going to London to make inquiries, and asked him his address; he gave mo his correct address, and said that I should find the silk was all right; that he bought it of a man named May, and gave 16s. a pound for it, that he did not know the weight, but he bought it by the lump—I said, "Well, if you bought it of May, you can produce the invoice and the receipt"—he said, "No, I cannot; I never had any; it is about four months ago, and it has been warehoused in my Brothers house ever since"—I said, "You mean Mr. Barker"—he said, "Yes"—I after wards saw Barker—De Bock said, "I called at Agg's, and I came down with hi a to receive the money"—I told Barker I was going to London to make inquiries about the ten Bales of silk which had been sold to Mr. Newton; he also gave his correct address, 2, Hope-street, Spitalfields—he said "I know nothing about any ten Bales of silk; I never saw any in my life"—I said, "Your Brother-in-law has just said that you have had it in your house for the last four months"—he said, "No, I have not; it might have been for three months"—he said he did not know what he came to Derby for; but he was out of work, and his Brother said if he came he would pay his expenses—I went to London, and returned on Friday, 22d—I telegraphed to Derby on the 22d, and when I arrived there, I found Sergeant Green in possession of 109 Books of silk, and a complete Bale of skeins—I saw Mr. Newton, Mr. Newton, jun., and Mr. Leach, Mr. Newton's solicitor, all together—that was on Saturday the 22d—I said to Newton, "I want a receipt I

saw the other day"—the son went up for it, it was taken off the file—Mr. Leach took a copy of it and handed it to Newton, who Banded it over to me—Newton said, "My son paid for it; he gave three 100l. notes and a cheque for 220l.; he bought it of Agg"—I said, "That does not make 738l."—he said "No, Agg owes me money"—he never made that statement to me on any former occasion—he said he had never seen the silk until it came into this office—I said, "It was a strange thing if you had never seen it that the receipt should Be dated London, 15th March, and the silk came down by the goods train the same night that you, Agg, Hunter, and the two men that we have got in custody, came down by the mail"—he said, "I came down with Agg and Hunter, but I have never seen the two men that you have got in custody"—the son said, in his father's presence, "Agg made the receipt out in this office"—the father said, "I did not look at the date"—I then went over to fetch the silk away—Veesey took possession of the wrappers—on the 27th, De Bock and Barker were taken before the magistrate again—I saw the wrappers found at Newton's—his son showed them to me—when De Bock and Barker were both together, before they were taken before the magistrate, I told them that I had been to London—they were not in the same office, but the partition only went half-way up, so that they could hear—I told them I had been to London and found that ten Bales of silk had been stolen from St. Katherine's Docks, on the 15th or 16th—De Bock said, "Stop till we get to London, then I will show you"—Barker cried and said, "I did not know it was stolen; I shall say what I know"—I looked in the silk Books and found these nine chop tickets (produced), and two chop tickets in the skeins—they were not in the silk on the side Board, but in the Bale—the ties were taken off—that is a fine bit of silk which goes round it—some few were left on, and a portion of some remained—I compared the few ties that were left and the chop tickets with some more which were in Mr. Wheatley's possession, and which he produced at the Thames Police-court, and they corresponded—I took possession of the silk after the prisoners were in custody, and gave it to Mumford—it was put in the same Bags and wrappers which were found at Newton's—I accompanied Barker and Newton to London on 1st April—during the journey, I told De Bock that Agg and Hunter had absconded—he said, "They need not have done that, for when I get to London I will show them something which will clear the lot."

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Did you watch Mr. Leach's house with Fearn? A. No; I watched a man who was going to his house, for perhaps twenty minutes—there were two parties who had told Fearn they knew nothing about it, and when they saw us they shifted and went round another road; and I said, "We will see where those parties are going;" one of them was Gutteridge—Fearn had told me what Gutteridge had said—we waited twenty minutes; not longer—we waited so long, because they would not go, and I wanted to see where they did go to; and when they went, I went away.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT PARRY. Q. Had you De Bock and Barker in your private room to examine them? A. I asked them their addresses; I did not ask them a number of questions respecting the silk, I told them what I was going to do—I did not ask De Bock to show me the invoice—I have not sworn that I did—I did not say, "Well, if you bought it of May, produce the invoice"—I said, "If you bought it of May, you can produce the invoice"—this was on the occasion when they were remanded—their addresses had not been taken Before, they were not asked, that I am aware of—when Barker said that he knew nothing of it, I said to him, "Your

Brother-in-law has just told me you had had it four months"—I generality do my duty according to circumstances; if I want to know the address of a prisoner I have him brought into my office—I am not in the habit of taking persons charged into my private room and examining them, or talking to them—I did talk to these parties—it was not for the purpose of catching him that I said, "Your Brother-in-law has just told me so"—a statement had been made that they had the silk, and we supposed it was stolen—it was decidedly on suspicion of stealing the silk—De Bock came into my private room at the station first—of course I had him sent for; he came from the lock-up to go to the gaol—my private office leads out of the pu Blic office—after De Bock left I had Barker in—this was merely a conversation, not with a view of entrapping them—the conversation about clearing the lot was when we were coming up in the railway carriage—I went to De Bock's residence in town—the shop is not half so large as this jury Box; it is a small house in Spitalfields.

Cross-examined by MR. COOPER. Q. Did Barker seem much distressed? A. Yes; he said he knew nothing about it—he called himself a shoemaker—I have heard that his father is an undertaker—I have heard that he assists his father on Sunday.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. Does his father live in Derby? A. No, in London—I went with Inspector Fearn to Gutteridge's house, stood at the front door, and heard the conversation—I could not catch every word, but Fearn told me outside that he had seen nobody come in, only Newton, who was very drunk.

JOHN PASSMORE MUMFORD . I am superintendent of police at St. Katherine's Docks—I was at Derby on 27th March, I went to Newton's mill, and saw him there with Fearn—I told Newton that I was superintendent of police of St. Katherine's Dock Company, and he must consider himself in custody for receiving ten Bales of silk—he said, "Oh God, what will Become of me!"—he repeated that several times, and similar expressions, and "What shall I do!"—after he was taken in custody I saw the silk packed up—on the way from the mill to the Town-hall he said, "I know Hunter, and when I lived at Dalston I used his house"—I saw the silk at the Town-hall, and saw it packed in ten Bales—I put some marks on it, and went with it to the railway station at Derby—I locked it up in a railway van and received the key—I met the van on its arrival in London, gave the key up, and saw it unlocked and taken out in my presence—I delivered it on the day of its arrival to Mr. Wheatley, at the Cutler-street warehouse, Belonging to the St. Katherine's Dock Company—I examined it there and saw my marks on it and in the Bales.

Gross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. I think you desired him to send for his solicitor? A. Yes; he then left the room, but did not go out of my sight—he was in a state of physical and mental prostration—he said nothing before the Magistrate—he was much affected—Mr. Leech was, I believe, sent for—he appeared at the Town-hall.

ROBERT DEATH . I am a clerk in the Booking-office of the London and North Western Railway—I issued tickets for the night mail of 15th March—there were only three second-class passengers to Derby by the mailtrain that night—I have nothing to do with first-class passengers by that train.

WILLIAM LEWIS WHEATLEY . I am the manager of the silk department of St. Katherine's Dock—Between March 12th and 18th I received the whole eargo of the Silent, less the missing Bales—I afterwards received ten Bales of silk from Mumford, which he had fetched from Derby—this (produced) is one of the wrappers of the ten Bales—I have compared the numbers of them

with the ten Bales in the consignment, and they correspond—they complete the series—there are check tickets, which are produced—I am a judge of silk—I have been upwards of thirty years in that department—it is not usual to have the ties of the silk cut off; quite the contrary, it is a disadvantage—there are seven distinct qualities in the ten Bales of silk—the original shirts had been removed from some of the Bales, and only these Bags were round them, but most of them had their original shirts—some considerable quantity of the chips had been removed—18s. per pound was the price and 12s. or 12s. 6d. the lowest—assuming these to be the ten that were lost, they would exactly in quality and quantity make up the missing Bales less one Book—a Book is about eight pounds—the silk is invariably cut exactly to weight, two pounds for a China Bag, and three pounds for a Calcutta silk Bag—the Dock Company are responsible for the weight—part of these were a consignment to Messrs. Rothschild, and part to Messrs. Glodstein—I have never found out the entire value of the silk less one Book—it does not concern me—the variation in consignments of silk is very considerable—I believe it is an invariable practice for Buyers of silk to examine it carefully, and they have every opportunity of doing so—I saw the Bags weighed that were brought from Derby—they varied from two pounds four ounces to three pounds—that signifies that they are not the Company's Bags.

Cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH. Q. If I understand right, these ales contain different parcels of silk under one wrapper? A. It contains one class of silk—the chips and ties are inside the wrapper.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. Would those chips and ties, if they were allowed to remain, furnish some mode of identification afterwards? A. Yes, that is our guide.

CHARLES BUCKLAND . I live at 13, London-wall—I know Crane—I never saw his writing much; very little of it—I saw him mark four packages—I should say that these ten packages were all marked by Crane.

Cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH. Q. How long ago is it since you knew Crane? A. Thirteen or fourteen years, and I have known him ever since in London—I was at Drakeford's about four years ago for a month or six weeks—I was certainly there longer than a fortnight, but I will not answer to any time—I was there more than a week—I was there when Agg was there and Crane was there—I will swear I was there an hour, but I do not know the time—I derive my information about Crane's writing from when I was at Drakeford's; it is only there that I have seen him use a brush or make a mark.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. How long ago is it, according to the best of your remem Brance, that you went to Drakeford's? A. About four years—I did not go as a weekly servant, I was only employed for a time—I was not exactly a weekly servant; I was employed by time in packing and marking—Crane was employed there at the same time—he packed and marked and did anything they required him—I had the opportunity of seeing him mark the Bags several times while I was there—there is a good deal of packing and marking at Messrs. Drakeford's—I believe these to be Crane's marking—I have seen him mark a dozen a day for several days.

W. L. WHEATLEY (re-examined). This (produced) is what is called a book—the value of it is 14s. per lb.—the total weight of the ten Bales is 1,058 lbs. 12 ozs., as I received it from Mr. Mumford—I have put a value according to the Best of my judgment upon each Bale—the value would be 800l.—if the silk is in a mill going to be thrown, you take the Bands off first, and then the ties—the tie is a piece of silk running across here with

some distinctive colour—I should not expect to find the ties taken off before the Bands were removed.

MR. SERJEANT PARRY, with MR. RIBTON, requested that De Bock might Be allowed to make a statement of certain facts which passed between him and Agg, which were incapable of being proved by witnesses, and that he (MR. SERJEANT PARRY) might then address the Jury upon them (See Reg. v. Matey, Carrington, and Payne, p. 242). MR. GIFFARD did not wish to oppose, But THE COURT considered that De Bock could not appear personally, and by Counsel also; he therefore made no statement, But MR. SERJEANT PARRY addressed the Jury on his Behalf.

MR. SLEIGH called

CHARLES DURANT . I am a member of the firm of Durant and Co., silk Brokers, of Copthall-court—I have known Crane by sight a great many years—two of his Brothers have been in our employment—I know a great deal of the family—I have had transactions with Messrs. Drakeford, and he has brought silk from them to us, and from us to them—I have known him to be in a respectable situation for years.

Cross-examined by MR. GIFFARD. Q. Do you know what has been described as the ties in silk? A. Yes; it is not usual to remove them in the trade—whether I should think it right to Buy a quantity from which the ties had been removed would depend upon who offered it—I should not make that an objection, I think; but if offered me without the ties by a person I did not know, I should object to Buy it—the tie does not distinguish the quality—silk which comes from China has it—this silk has come from China by the Peninsular and Oriental Company's steamers to Southampton—silk varies in quality a great deal—I should not think of buying ten Bales without seeing it—it is of great importance to examine it, to see that the quality does not vary.

MR. LEWIS. Q. You would not consider the absence of the ties an obstacle if you knew the house? A. Certainly not.

JOSIAH ROBINSON . I am in partnership with Thomas Drakeford—Crane has been in our employ eighteen years—I know several of his brothers—during the whole of that period he has Borne the character of a well-conducted, honest man—I am prepared to take him back if he is acquitted.

MR. METCALFE. Q. Was Agg for some time a clerk in your service? A. Agg was in our employ for many years—he was Crane's superior—he is related by marriage to Mrs. Drakeford—I know that after he left he continued to deal in silk—I know nothing of his having a public-house except by report—I know his writing well—these documents and this invoice are Agg's writing—Newton has dealt with our house some years—I have always considered him a very respectable man, and a man of substance of late years—he commenced by small Beginnings, and has risen by his own industry—during the pendency of this case the police asked me to go and look at the silk—they asked me more particularly to look at the markings of the Bags, but I looked at the silk also—I should call 14s. a pound a very full price for the silk—there was nothing about it by which a man must necessarily know that it was stolen, because the ties were not there when the Bands were—it is not usual to take off the ties, but I have often seen Bales without ties—I have not often seen job lots—sometimes silk comes in this way, but in the regular way it would have ties.

Cross-examined by MR. GIFFARD. Q. Who is Agg? A. He is a nephew of Mrs. Drakeford's—he was a great many years with us—he was employed in the counting-house and the warehouse—it was his duty to give directions

to Crane; to act as his master—Crane was not employed in marking these or similar Bales—he was engaged in packing and marking, the greater part of the time he was in our service—it was part of his duty to pack and mark—I should not call these ten Bales a job lot of silk—it seemed in good condition—it appeared perfectly new—it was not in any way damaged—silk varies in value greatly—China silk is generally bought by a sample of each Bill, where there is such a variation as from 12s. to 18s.—I should have looked at the Bales before I bought them—I should have considered 14s. the extreme value for it, as sound, perfect silk—I saw it all open.

De Boch and Barker received good characters.


GEORGE HILTON (re-examined). Young Mr. Newton, Mr. William Bullock Newton, acted extremely well from first to last—an officer was sent there to take care of the silk—that was not at young Mr. Newton's suggestion—I was informed that he had asked that somebody should go and take care of the silk, but the man outside could have taken the same care of it, as there is no back way out—he has acted very well from first to last.

Gross-examined by MR. GIFFARD. Q. Did you place a man outside to prevent it being removed? A. Yes—young Mr. Newton wished a man to be placed inside, because he did not wish him to be seen in the street.

JAMES TAYLOR . I am a guard, in the employ of the Midland Railway Company—I have been in their service since May, 1848—on 18th March I took charge, at Rugby, of the mail-train that left London at 9 o'clock—it left Rugby about twenty minutes past 11—I took charge of it to Derby—I was the only guard from Rugby—the train divides there in three portions, and I took charge of the Midland portion—I went in the rear Break van—I know Mr. Newton by seeing him frequently travelling by the same train—I have seen him in the mail-train on several occasions—at Leicester it is my practice to see that the passengers are in the proper carriages for Derby—I went to the composite carriage at Leicester, which was going to Derby, and saw Mr. Newton there about 12 o'clock, in the second-class compartment—a composite carriage is second-class in the middle and first-class at each end—he was quite alone—I asked him twice over where he was going to, and he said, "Derby"—there was no passenger in the first-class part—there were two persons in the other second class compartment—I should not know them if I saw them—they were men—they were for Derby—Leicester is 29 3/4 miles from Derby—as soon as the doors were closed and shut, I started the train—I think, if they had attempted to change carriages, I should have seen them—I walked straight back and signalled the train at once—Lough Borough is the next stopping place—we did not remain there more than two minutes—if Newton had got out there, I am almost sure I should have seen him—I did not see anybody get out there—we then went to the North-junction station before we got into Derby—we were there about two minutes—there is no platform, and nobody got out there—my Break-van was immediately in front of the composite carriages—I was not behind then, because the train divided there—I was riding in the last train up to the North-junction—I left the north portion at the junction and took the down portion, which consisted of one composite carriage and one parcel van—I left one Break van at the junction, and went on in the one which preceded the composite carriage—I was then next to that compartment in which I had seen Newton—when I got to the ticket-platform I saw Gutteridge—he collected the tickets—we stop to take tickets about 200 yards before the passengers alight—having collected the tickets, he rides on the step into the station—during all the time, I feel confident

that neither Newton nor the men changed places, though I cannot swear it—I saw Newton directly he got out, but did not see him get out—I had then been on the platform a minute or so—Gutteridge was with him; nobody else—I did not see Bartlett—I Began to put out the parcels—Gutteridge came to me and made a communication that Mr. Newton had lost his ticket and portmanteau—Wilcoxon is a guard in the Company's employment—he came down by the train from Leicester to Derby—I do not know where he rode—I saw him after we arrived on the Derby platform—he said, "I have been asleep; I am going to Row Botham's: there are some passengers going there;, I have recommended them for a Bed" I understood him they were two men with whom he had been riding—I do not know why he told me that—he asked me if I would go and have a glass of ale, and I said, "No"—there were several houses open—there were two Breaks, up to North Derby Junction, and only one from North Derby Junction to the station—I never saw Wilcoxon in the Break—the first I saw of him, was when he came to the Break-van that I was riding in, and took his signals out—that was the only Break-van there was—he was not in the Break before that: had he been I must have seen him—if he rode to Leicester in the Break-van, he must have got out there—he was not in the hind Break-van in which I came—if he came in the first, he must have got out at the junction—there is a train from Derby to London at a quarter-past 4 o'clock in the afternoon.

Cross-examined by MR. GIFFARD. Q. When is the next train? A. 6.40, and the next is 12.33, but there is one to Leicester before that—I did not see any passenger get out at Loughborough—I would not say they did or did not—I do not know where Wilcoxon rood; but if he was in the Break-van, he must have got out at the junction—I do not know where he rode from the junction—the first I saw of him was on the plat-form, when he took the signals out—Newton did not look particularly affected with drink when he got out—he looked as if he had been asleep, but you cannot tell when a man wakes up—I saw Newton on the platform at Derby, not at Leicester—if he was on the platform at Leicester at all, he must have got into a carriage before I saw him.

COURT. Q. When were you first asked about this? A. Last Tuesday—that was the first time my attention was called to the train that went on this night—I travelled by the mail-train every night for a week; one week in seven, as a general rule, unless I am taken off for anything—my turn has come once since 18th or 19th March, and it comes on again next week—the other six weeks I take day-work—that is the arrangement, not to give us night-work constantly—I take different trains during the week, in the intervals—I travel, on an average, about 155 miles a day—I heard about this silk soon after it happened—I did not hear that Mr. Newton had been robbed—I was first asked about this matter last Tuesday—of course there had been a word passed about it before that, but the first question I was asked was last Tuesday, as having anything to do with the train that Newton came down with.

MR. METCALFE. Q. When was your attention first called to the train that went down on the 19th-March; was it last Tuesday or when? A. There was nothing about it till last Tuesday—I was asked some questions by Mr. Newton's attorney's clerk, last Tuesday—I had not before that had my attention called to this particular train, on this particular night, with a view of ascertaining who the passengers were—I cannot recollect that anything passed between the night that Newton came down, and last Tuesday, to throw my memory back to the 19th of March.

JOHN GUTTEUIDGE . I am a platform porter at the Midland Railway station, Derby—I occasionally collect tickets at night time—I collected the tickets on the night of 18th March—the collecting platform is about one hundred yards from the station—if my re recollection is right, the train came in on that night at a few minutes after 1 o'clock, or something like that—it was composed of three carriages; one parcel van, one composite carriage, and one guard's break van—I collected the tickets from the composite carriage—that was a first-class between two second-classes—there was nobody in the first-class—there were three in the first second-class compartment; two passengers and one guard, that was Wilcoxson—he was lying asleep on the seat—in the other second-class carriage was Mr. Newton by himself—I Began at the end of the train and worked up to the engine—I did not receive a ticket from Newton—I rode from the ticket platform to the station, on the step of the carriage Newton was in; and riding for one hundred and fifty yards in that way I will swear that there was nobody in the compartment but himself—I did not see Bartlett at the station—I rode on the step of Newton's carriage, because he could not find his ticket—when I got to the platform, I saw Mr. Measurer, the foreman—I saw the two men who were in the carriage with the guard, and also saw them on the night following on the platform—De Bock and Barker are the men—I saw them step out of a carriage—they took no notice of Newton at all, or of anybody—Newton did not get his portmanteau from the train on his arrival at Derby—I afterwards went up to Bartlett in relation to that portmanteau—that was the first time I had seen Bartlett—I had to walk about a hundred and thirty yards to him—he was in the entrance hall—that is not in a direct line of sight—when Newton did not get his portmanteau, I spoke to Taylor about it—I afterwards went with Newton for him to pay his fare—he paid it to a clerk in the office—I saw what money was given—there is a clerk there all night to Book the night trains, and he paid it in the ordinary office to the ordinary clerk—I afterwards went with Newton to Row Botham's, and there saw the two men who I had seen in the carriage with the guard—they did not in any way recognise Newton, or Newton them—I had some ale—Newton paid for it—I stayed at the counter perhaps three or four minutes—I afterwards accompanied Newton home—I have never seen him come from London by any other than the mail-train—it is generally my habit to walk home with him when I am not on duty—there are no cabs at the station to meet persons, so that a porter must carry a portmanteau—we generally call at Row Botham's as we go By, and drink—when I spoke to Bartlett in the entrance-hall, he had not time to see the parties get out of the carriage—I recollect De Bock and Barker being apprehended—I heard Bartlett say, after that, that it was those two men who had come down by the mail the night previous—that was all he said that night with reference to them; but a night or two afterwards it was being talked over on the platform, in Bartlett's presence, and he said, "I must have my spoon into that affair"—some weeks after, we were down in the lamp-room, talking about this affair, and he said to me, "Are you not going to London?"—I said, No; not that I am aware of"—one of the other men asked him if he was going; he said, "Yes"—the other man said, "It will Be a good job for you, if you go"—he said, "I do not care if I can only make a 10l. note out of it"—the other man said that he would make the cat's tail spin about that night—I do not know what that meant—Fearn and Vessey came to my house, and asked me some questions—that was before Bartlett was brought up to London as a witness—I do not know when he was brought up, but it was about 23d or 24th March—some time afterwards, I went to

Mr. Leach—I did not observe whether anybody was watching me—I did not see Fearn or Vessey.

Cross-examined by MR. GIFFARD Q Who was this gentleman who talked about the cat's tail? A One of our porters—his name is Derbyshire—Fearn did not ask me what I knew about it—he asked me if I went home with Newton that night that they came down from London—I said, "Yes"—he said, "Did not you call at Row Botham's with him?" I said, "Yes"—he said" Were there two men at Mr. Row Botham's with him?"—I said, "Yes"—he said, "Did they take notice of each other?"—I said, "No; I never saw them"—I was in Bed, and he asked my mistress if I could talk to him up the stairs—I cannot call to mind what day of the week it was—I believe it was three or four days after the arrival of this train—I only heard his voice—I do not remember his coming with Hilton—I do not remember Fearn asking me any questions about this at any other time.

Q. Did Fearn come with Hilton and ask you whether you saw them ride in the train, and did you not say you could not recollect how they came, all you remembered was, that Newton was very drunk, and bad lost Big ticket? A. I never did—I never used those words to Fearn—I never saw him on this subject at all—I never spoke to him, except when he called up stairs to me at my house—my wife was there—she is here—it was in the morning—I did not come down, because he told my wife it was not required—I was asleep in Bed when he called out from the Bottom of the stairs—I never told Fearn that I could not tell him how the men came—I took Mr. Newton to the person who takes the money for the tickets—his name is Garratt—I never heard Newton say, he could not tell how he had lost his ticket, if the two men he had been riding with had not taken it—he never said anything about how he lost it—when I went up with Newton, I told Garratt that Mr. Newton had got his fare to pay from Loudon, for he had lost his ticket, and I had looked in the carriage for it—I never asked him how he lost it, at any time, nor did I hear Mr. Garratt ask him—Newton was the worse for liquor—my sole reason for accompanying him was to carry his portmanteau—he had no portmanteau that night; but he asked me to walk up with him, being the worse for liquor—he did not exactly say that he was the worse for liquor—I do not know the words Be used, but he said, "Will you walk up with me, you will take my arm?"and I saw that he was the worse for liquor—we both drank some more—I have not been reduced in rank for being the worse for liquor—I was ill at home, and could not come to my train—I was reported because I did not come—I was at home, and they came to call me to my train—I do not know whether they said I was drunk—no one told me that I am aware of what I was reduced for, Mr. Need ham told me, I ought to have sent word—he is next to the general manager, the superintendent—on my oath I do not know that I was reduced from my rank for drunkenness—Mr. Needham did not tell me so—if I had been drunk, I should have had to go away from the situation altogether—I was not accused of being drunk that I am aware of—I never heard it till this moment—my a Bility to prove where the different passengers were, was talked over on the station by different parties the week following—Hunter is one person—he is the inspector of carriages—he had nothing to do with Newton—I cannot say when I was first applied to on Behalf of Newton, to tell what I could say about the night when he came down by the mail-train—it is about two months ago—I cannot give you a date—I did not take particular notice whether it was a week, or a fortnight, or a month, after the night—it was before the prisoners were committed for trial, and after they had been sent from Derby to London—I was not

examined before the Magistrate—this is the first time I have given my evidence—I was su Bpoenaed here last Friday or Saturday.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. How long have you been in the employment of the Company? A Thirteen years; I began as a porter, remained so four or five years and then Became second porter, and after that I Became guard and foreman of Normanton station—I got 25s. as guard, and get 17s. now—it is twelve months this May since I was reduced—persons thought that I was drunk, and named it as such but I was not; I was ill at home—it was Fearn who came to me when I was in Bed—my wife was there—I did not see either of the parties who came—excepting from what my wife told me I did not know that there was a second person—I did not hear one—she said there was Fearn and another—she said, "Tell him it is Fearn the police-constable, and he will know who it is"—she did not know him—she went down and then Fearn called up to me, but I did not know Hilton was with him—when I was reduced by Mr. Needham, nothing was said about drunkenness; it was for missing the train—I have been in the Company's employment from that time to this—it is by Mr. Needham's permission that I am here to-day.

JOHN ROE . I am night porter at the Derby station, and was so on the night of 18th March—I remember the mail-train arriving that night—I saw Newton against the carriage door, when he got out of the nearest compartment to the engine and next to the break—the Break was between the engine and the carriage—he was feeling in his pockets for his ticket—Gutteridge was with him, telling him to feel for his ticket; he must have it somewhere about him—Measurer, the foreman, came up, and then Newton said that he had lost his portmanteau—I ran into the hall to the policeman Bartlett, and asked him if he had seen any one go out with a portmanteau—he said he had seen two men with one, but he did not think it was Mr. Newton's portmanteau—that was about a minute and a half after the train arrived—I could not see the carriage at the place where Bartlett stood—I had not seen Bartlett before that—he may have been oh the platform and I not have seen him but he had very little time to do it in.

MR. METCALFE. Q. Were you one of the gentlemen who were watching at Mr. Leach's? A Yes—they were against Mr. Leach's house when we went in.

WILLIAM BULLOCK NEWTON . I am the eldest son of the prisoner Newton—he has one other son—my mother is alive—I have for three years superintended the cash transactions of my father's business—my Brother superintends the working of the mill and paying the men; superintending the labour—my father is a silk-Broker and attends chiefly to the buying and selling—he has for some years acted as a silk-Broker as well as a throwster—he commenced as a working-man and worked his way up—he lives in his own house in the mill and has property besides—he carries on a large Business—we employ from 130 to 150 hands, and have done for a considerable time—we have done Business with most of the silk houses in town during that time—our wages are 60l. to 70l. a week, and during the last five years we have turned over on an average about 40,000l., a year—I know Frederick Charles Agg in the course of Business since 1850 and in no other way—he was at that time a Buyer for Drakeford and Co., and remained so up to 1859—we had transactions through him with Drakeford and Co., and continued to know him when he left Drakeford's—I heard it reported that he was a nephew of Mrs. Drakeford many years ago—I do not know that he had any interest after he ceased to act as their Buyer—

the first transaction we had with him after he left there was on 9th January—this letter (produced) is the first letter we received from him after he started in Business on his own account—Read; "62 St. John-street-road, 8th October. Dear sir, if you have any China-train, forty or sixty, let me have a sample; if you can do with 500 lbs. let me know. Yours truly, F C Agg. Also Taysam silk if you have any"—I had at that time silk answering to that description, which I could conveniently dispose of—I had no transaction with him at that time—we had the same class of silk—this (produced) is the next letter I received from him—(Read: "November 15th 1860. Dear Sir—Yours of the 15th is to hand and in return let us have a fair sample, with particulars; put the lowest price; the Bank has raised the rate to 6 per cent., which will no doubt cause the price of silk to go down. F C Agg ")—after the receipt of that letter, I sent a sample of silk to Mr. Agg—here is an entry of it in my consignment Book, on 16th November made by myself—it is "two Bundles of China train," they are entered to Messrs Agg and Hunter—this is the consignment Book in which I enter samples, so that I might afterwards call and send the bulk—I received this letter of 17th November from him—it says, referring to the samples, "Dear sir, yours of 16th is to hand, and also the Bundle and shall have my attention on Monday morning though I received it too late for to-day. Dated 17th November. P S Anything you may have in the job lot, I can always dispose of"—here is another letter of November 21st—(This was signed by Agg stating that Business was very difficult to do, if safe; that he never left a stone unturned and that there-fore the price of the silk must not Be above the mark)—Agg was in the habit of having samples sent to him by persons in town, on our Behalf, so that I cannot always tell the date—I next sent samples to him direct on 4th January—this letter of 5th January refers to the receipt of it—this ledger is indexed in the usual way—there are names Beginning with A, which come before Agg as well as afterwards—here are thirteen transactions of Agg—the first is a parcel of Tallium train, on 9th January sold by Agg for us—when I sent a sample up about October or November, that would be kept in hand; I should Be advised of the sale and should enter it in my ledger, but not till the sale was effected—I debit Agg with the amount—the first amount I have in the day-Book is 9th January—there are two sets of entries that day—420 is the number that appears in the margin—Mr. Agg, acting as our Broker in town would advise us of several sales at once—some of the silk had been sold previous to the 18th but all the silk he advised would be sold under the head of the 18th—all those entries in the day-Book correspond with the thirteen entries in the ledger—there are also entries in the consignment-Book of all the goods excepting those delivered in London—here is one from Mr. Patterson and one from Rigg—those would be entered as sold to those persons—they are what I call the account sales—my father went to London on 12th March and returned on the morning of the 19th—he was in the habit of buying silks once a month, and some-times oftener—while he was there I sent up two Bundles of Bengal train—this is the consignment-Book—it is entered to my father on 15th March—it is sold to Patterson, of Old Broad-street—on the morning of 19th March ten Bales of silk were delivered at the mill by Pickford's—they deliver through the medium of the company—they came about nine o'clock in the morning—ten Bales is not at all an unusual quantity for me to receive—I had received ten Bales on the previous Friday, and six on the Saturday—they were directed to my father—they remained in the office till he came

down about noon—I went to dinner about 1 o'clock, without an opportunity of speaking to him about the silk—none of the Bales were touched when I went away—I found one of them opened when I came back about 2 o'clock—they were still in the front office—that is the ordinary place for goods to be deposited until they are worked up—they were not taken away till the police took them—I went away without an opportunity of speaking to my father—he returned, at about half-past 2—Agg came with him, and a man called Hunter, whom I had not known Before; they went through the mill and examined the machinery—he was showing them over it—I went down the room and was introduced to Mr. Hunter by Mr. Agg, as his friend; but I understood that Hunter was in partnership with Agg—I left them down the room and commenced weighing Bo B Bins—Agg came and told me to come down stairs, that he had got some money for us—I went down with him alone, and he paid me a cheque for 108l. 17s., and a Bill for 60l. 16s.—I placed that to his account, and gave him a receipt—this (produced) is the cheque that he gave me—(Read: "London, March 9th, 1861, London and Westminster Bank. Pay Mr. Agg or Bearer 108l. 17s. Joseph Wilson")—this name, "John Newton" is my lather's writing—this was given to me on the afternoon of 19th March, in part payment of the account running—up to that time I had not bought any silk of Agg, but I had sold some right out, not on commission, on several occasions—I found an entry of them—the first sale to him is on 24th January—all these that have got 5 per cent. allowed are sold out and out—this cheque and the Bill were payments on account of sales made—it was Alexander Cox's Bill—my father came in afterwards and Hunter—Agg then said, "Your father has bought these ten Bales of silk from me for cash"—my father said to me, "You pay for them"—I asked Mr. Agg how much they would come to—he said, "Over 700l."—I said, "It will not Be convenient to pay the whole amount at this time; we have other payments to make; will 200l. or 300l. do to-day, and more in a few days?"—he said, "Yes"—I then wrote a cheque for 300l.—he did not specify any particular amount that he wanted—I took the cheque to the Bank, and cashed it as I was going there on other Business—this is the 300l. cheque (produced) which I drew—it is my writing—this counterfoil is also in my writing—I went to the Bank, because it was getting near closing hours, and I had to run to get there before it closed—he asked me to cash the cheque for him as I was going to the Bank—when I brought back the notes he gave me the invoices of ten Bales of silk—they were three 100l. notes—I believe this invoice is in the same state as when he gave it to me—it has my initials on it—he had written it out when I came into the office with the notes, and receipted it as it is now—I did not observe that it was headed "London," or "15th March"—I was in a hurry, because I had many letters to write that night, and hands were waiting, and he said he wanted to go to London by a train leaving at half-past 4—I do not know what day it was my father spoke to him about the silk—when the invoice was handed to me I asked my father how much we were to pay—my father said, "Pay him 200l. or so, and carry a Balance to his account"—I proposed 200l. or 220l. in addition to the notes, and to carry the Balance to his account—I wrote out a cheque for 220l., and made it payable on 22d March—that would be the three days that I had proposed—I find the counterfoil here of that cheque, "Agg, March 22"—immediately after that I find a cheque drawn on March 20th, another on 21st, another on 22d—I gave that on the 19th—it was inconvenient to me to pay the cash on that day—I had other payments to make

at that time, and it was inconvenient to give the whole sum—Agg saw that I had post dated the cheque—the difference was not made out, and the account gone into between us—he went away with Hunter and my father, and shortly after he had left I Balanced the account in the ledger—I showed him where to get a ca B as he was in a hurry to catch the train, and the station is a mile from our house—I have never seen him or Hunter since—I directed the police at the police-office to go to the address of Agg and Hunter—I made an effort to find them For the police-constables—I did not look into the invoices particularly, as I had been dealing with Agg for some time—he owed us a Balance of 394l.; not before the cheque—the whole amount that Agg owed us before he came was 563l. 17s. 2d.—first came a cheque for 108l. 17s., and then the acceptance for 60l.; deducting that, we get 393l. 15s. 2d.—when he left he owed us 176l. 3s. 2d.—I do not find Agg's acceptance to the amount of 323l. entered in this pass-Book—some short time after the 19th I was requested to return the acceptances with another name—he owed us more than 176l. 3s. 2d. at that time—during the whole of these transactions my father took no part in it at all—I have entered up the purchase of the ten Bales in the bought invoice-Book, which I have got here—I also posted up the ledger the same night—I have copied this from the invoices—I also enter up the sales in this sold invoice-Book (produced)—about 2 o'clock on Wednesday morning, the 20th, Inspector Fern came to my house, and knocked me up—I live away from my father, at my own house—he asked me whether we bad had any silk transactions that day—I told him that we had had transactions with Mr. Agg, and that we had paid him three 100l. notes and a 200l. cheque, and the Balance was to be carried to his account—I proposed to go with him to my father's, and did go—my father said, in answer to a question by Fern, that he should Be at the mill in the morning—Fearn then left—Between 9 and 10 in the morning Hilton came, accompanied by Fearn and Vessey, and I explained the facts to them, and offered the Books which I have now produced, and the invoices, but they left them with me—I offered to show them all the Books—I fetched them down stairs—Mr. Hilton placed his hands upon them, and said, "There, I see them, but I won't see them"—I did everything in my power to clear up the transaction—I never saw De Bock or Barker until they were in custody—I had seen Crane as a porter at Drakeford's—I gave a plain description of Agg and Hunter—when my father could not go to the police-court I went—I took one Bundle of silk to the station and one of the Bags—that was on the 20th—I attended before the Magistrate—Mr. Hilton came again to the mill on the afternoon of the 20th, accompanied by Mr. Davenport and Mr. Cramont—they are in partnership as silk manufacturers and thrusters—they looked at the silk in the presence of the police, who came with them—I repeated that I had paid for it in their presence—on Saturday, 23d March, Hilton came again with Mr. Leach, and I gave up the invoices, and offered to show the Books—Mr. Leach said he did not want them except for this one transaction—the silk was then packed, and taken away—Between giving the 300l. and the cheque coming due I sent for some money to meet the payment—it was a telegraphic message to Rigg, "Send me a cheque on account of sales"—this (produced) is a copy of it—in conesquence of that I received this cheque (produced. This was dated 21st March, for 270l. 7s. 6d. signed Rd. Rigg)—I paid that into the Bankers, with another cheque of Mr. Chappell's, making 315l.—on Friday, 22d, in consequence of what I heard from the police, I stopped my own cheque—up to that time I considered Agg to be a respectable man in his dealings—he had won my

confidence—I had heard that he was related to Mrs. Drakeford, and that increased my confidence—Drakefords stand very high in the trade—I was to send an invoice on the 19th—it was for cash in a month—that includes the sums I have given as owing to me.

Cross-examined by MR. GIFFARD. Q. Where is the account in the ledger that would come out? A. Down at the bottom, "By notes 300l., by cheque 220l."—here is "March 15, 10 chimes"—the next entry was not written at the same time, but on the same evening—all the one entry is by me—I do not see that two figures have been altered there—I did put 200l. and alter it to 238l.—the figures have, in fact, both been altered—the mistake happened in this way: I made it out, but did not put the credit price for 238l. down—I was running over the account again at night, after 1 o'clock, and found put the mistake—I did not find out that the 238l. was an error—I did not examine the invoices—the 238l. was brought into this account—I this other is the bought invoice-Book—this (produced) is the day-Book—I know it as the sold invoice-Book—I have no day-Book; nothing besides this—this shows the transaction of the 15th, 16th, 17th, and so on, every day, from day to day—But sometimes we do not have account sales sent down at the time the sales are made—this, March 18th, is entered on the 19th—I dare say there may Be a date after that of April 13th—you may take it that the ordinary course is to furnish the sales in the order in which they are entered—I did not leave the 13th Blank—this is the invoice which we should send to Thickett and Co.—if you look, you will see it is a corrected account—you must take it that that was corrected afterwards, about it is, in fact, headed "13 April"—that was written after 13th April—I am hardly tell you when it was written—it was done by a gentleman in London, who gave a copy of the account to our trustees—I should think it was written fully a fortnight after the 19th.

Q. How came you to enter that corrected account into this Book while this matter was under trial?"Agg owed us some money, and we had an acceptance to meet it for 130l., and some silk was returned by Agg's agency since this robbery—this was written in Derby—this was the original entry—some portion of it is what I referred to as the original account of Agg—I wrote it on 19th March—I entered it from our consigning Books—Agg had given us notice of the sale of the silk—I believe he had gone over some of our Books containing this account and different invoices—there is an account sale of China train and Bengal train—no part of these ten Bales is contained there—I have not entered them in any part of this day-book because I keep a Book for all sold accounts, and you will find nothing but received in that—I copy all the invoices—the invoices always specify the weight; this Book only exhibits the date of the original invoices—there is no Book at all which exhibits the date of the transaction except this which I took from the date of the invoices—I should put against it "clod" for "cleared" from the Docks—the Bill had been sent down, and we paid for it when it came back—if we had a ready money transaction at Derby the ledger would show it—I am quite sure I am correct in saying that I entered this 220l., having discovered the mistake the same evening the 19th.

Q Look at it again and tell me how it comes again opposite the date of the 22d? A. It is "March 19th cheque 300l."—438l. was paid in by cheque—the total is 438l., and it is summed up 738l.—the alterations in these invoices were made on the 19th—the 19th is the date of the cheque I drew—you have now seen every Book which contains an entry of this transaction except the carrier's Book; that contains the delivery of the silk to

different parts, and the carrier's signature—this is the goods delivered Book—you have seen every Book in our establishment which contains an entry of these ten Bales—there are no other entries than what you have seen—I never saw De Bock or Barker at all till they were in custody—a Balance is struck from the entries on this page (pointing it out to the Jury)—this is the Balance of the silk account—it is carried on from here—if there was a line drawn here it would not much matter—there is no other Book from which this Balance is taken—I am sure this was written at the same time—I do not see any difference in the ink—it might possibly Be so; for I have two inkstands, one with Blue ink and the other with Black—I have made three credits and one debit, but the result is the same—the cheque which I gave to Agg was to be paid on the 22d—we had also a London cheque-Book—this cheque-Book truly represents the transactions between the 18th and 22d—we have not a London Banker: they are agents—this cheque on 23d was given to Mr. Leach to draw out the Balance of our account—the Bank wished it; the Bank wished us to retire our Bills, and to close our account—we had to retire Bills between 19th and 22d out of the Balance in our favour—here it is in the pass-Book—the postponement of the 22d would enable us to meet the intervening claims upon us—we did not want to leave our Bankers without a Balance in our favour—the 121l. would come the very next day, and by the postponement of the cheque to the 22d I should have more time to get money in—I made this delivery shortly after Breakfast time, shortly after I received the letters—that was after my father's interview with the officers—it is my usual custom to go out about 1 o'clock, and come back at 2—I got to the mill at 8 in the morning; I was there till I went out to dinner at 1—I was there from 2 until I went to the Banker's, and cashed the cheque and got the cheque-Book—I was not gone to the Bank half an hour—I had to retire Bills there, I cannot say positively whether I did or did not, but I paid these two sums in on the same day—I do not always pay sums in myself—the pass-Book will not show whether I retired a Bill on that day, but I have no doubt I paid in a cheque and a Bill, though they have not given credit for the cheque on the day I paid it in—I believe there is an entry of it in the pass-Book—I have had dealings with Agg Before, and have sold goods to him.

Q. Can you point me out a single cheque made payable to him? A. He would give us cheques, we selling for him, he would make us payments—we were the Buyers on this occasion—that is the first transaction in which we have from first to last bought anything of Agg or Hunter—I cannot say whether Hunter took any part in the matter—he was chatting all the after-noon; I do not know whether it was in relation to the Business.

MR. METCALFE. Q. I observe the payment of 298l. 8s. 4d. into the bank that day, and the Bill added is 169l. 13s.; besides that is there a further amount, making up the 298l. which you paid in that day? A. Yes, and the cheque of Alwyn's of 70l. was paid—I gave that to Alwyn—here is one, the 21st, "Self, 10l."and an acceptance for 121l. 10s.—I knew on 19th that I should have to meet the 121l. 10s. on 21st, and also another acceptance—I have not been regularly brought up to Book-keeping—my father was a working man who raised himself, and I rose with him—I keep the Books in the Best way I can, so long as I can explain them—I am able to trace all these payments through the consignment-Book, which your friend never called for at all—they also appear in the sold invoice-Book—the sold invoice-Book and the bought invoice-Book make up the day-Book—I am able, from these three Books, to show the Jury the account entered in the ledger—these

sale accounts were made four or five together—these five top ones come together—I have entered this on 15th, which was copied from the invoice; that is, when I received an account of the sales my Brother entered it.

JOHN NEWTON , junior. I am a son of the prisoner Newton—I attend to the working-room—I have nothing to do with the Book-keeping, except occasionally, when my Brother is out of town, and so on—on 19th March Agg and Hunter came up to me in the top room of the mill, in the afternoon—Agg came to shake hands with me, and went down again—that is all I know of the transaction—I am quite sure they were both in the mill on 19th March.

COURT. Q. Did you know Hunter Before? A. No; Agg introduced him to me as Hunter.

GEORGE BROOM . I am an accountant, of the firm of Broom, Bag shaw, and Westcott, 35, Coleman-street, London—I have been in Business some thirty years—shortly after Newton's arrest, I was directed by his principal creditors to investigate the affairs—in consequence of that I went down on 4th April without any communication from him or his friends—I appeared there on 5th April—all the Books and papers were su Bmitted to me—I examined all the Books, the day-Book, ledger, bought and sold invoice-Books, the consignment-Book, and the carriers-Book—I saw the Bankers' pass-Book, and examined it sufficiently for the purpose for which I went down there—I prepared a statement of account for the creditors from those Books, and from the materials and assistance which I had—for instance, we had to take an account of the stock—I prepared a statement of his affairs—I examined Agg's account—my attention was directed to it from the circumcumstances that I then heard—I see the account of Agg's in the ledger—I have carefully, for that purpose, traced that account from the Books, and other documents, more particularly the-consignment-Book—I find that this supports the subordinate Books, but it is very Badly put together, unscientificcally—if the Jury have time to go through this Book and the consignment-Book, they can trace out every item in the ledger—there is no appearance of fraud about it, nor in any portion of the Books I have seen—I found that Newton was solvent, and as my object was to get the true statement of his affairs, I took care not to overstate anything—I found there was a surplus; not very considerable—I did bring the account here with me.

Cross-examined by MR. GIFFARD. Q. Would he have had no difficulty in meeting such a demand as 500l. if it had been made upon him? A. Well, I cannot say that he had not at that time; if you stop a current concern, however rich you may Be, you may have a difficulty to meet that, in the ordinary course of events—as far as I could see from the Books, I should say he could have met the demand, I cannot say for certain—this Balance of 218l. on the right-hand side, was explained to me—it is a deduction from 309l. on the other side to make up the deficiency in the purchase of ten Bales of silk—here is cash 300l. and 200l. odd, making 520l.—the 218l. is a deduction from the other side, an inartistic mode of doing it, to make up the whole 309l.—I have not got very good sight—I have not got spectacles, but I can see—the figure 4 in this 438l. seems to have been altered; it appears to have been a 2; I think so—I would not say positively, but if it were a 2 it would be wrong clearly—I have looked at this "creditor to Balance 218l." many times Before—I cannot say whether that has been written at the same time as the rest; it appears that it has—I inquired when I was in Derby who wrote this—it was written by young Newton—I could not say that it was not written at the same time as the rest—I should think from the style of it that it was

written at the time the account was made up—I see there are entries of figures on one side; then there is a Balance that descri Bes the ten Bales "10 China"—looking at the rest of the account and the entry of "10 China," and the figures carried out against it, I should think it appears to be written at the same time as the rest; I could not say to the contrary—it does not appear to me in any way different—I, who am so accustomed to Books, do not think this was written at a different time—I have been speaking of the "By Balance of silk"—I see nothing in it to lead me to believe that it is different to any other part—there is nothing in it, taking it right through, which would lead me to believe that it was written at a different time—I think the smudge on it would be no guide to that—it is in character with the rest of the accounts that I have seen—I have been speaking all this time of this "creditor to Balance 218l."—I see another entry on the other side, small letters—I should think it was all written at the same time that the account was made up; that is my opinion—this March 19th and March 22d in the margin and this "credit or to Balance" coming in together seem also to me to be written at the same time—I prepared an account from this to see how it would tally, bringing that out, because that is an erroneous way of putting it; but that 218l. being deducted from that Balance leaves this smaller sum at the end.

COURT. Q. The account is arithmetically correct, but as a piece of Book-keeping it is faulty? A. Very faulty indeed—I found it arithmetically correct.

MR. METCALFE. Q. Do you find, independent of the transaction of the 19th, that you can carry that balance through the Books, and trace the sums up to their source? A. Yes; every item—I have an account here made out from the Books, and put in order—I have already stated that I believe there is nothing irregular in the account, and nothing arises from that Blot—it is consistent with the other parts of the Book—the Book is all smudged and dirty.

COURT. Q. The latter part of the entry is not smudged; the first line is; the first line being smudged, and not the subsequent part, would that lead you to believe that it had been written at a different time? A. Well, I think it is likely that that may have been written at a different time to this other.

MR. METCALFE. Q. The down strokes are rather thick in a part of the "March," and it looks as if a finger had been smudged over it? A. Yes.

ROBERT RIGG . I am a silk-Broker in Great Winchester-street—I was indebted on 21st March, to Mr. Newton, for a sale effected by me—I received this telegram (produced) from him; on receipt of it I forwarded this cheque for 2,790l. 7s. 6d., the Balance of the account—I have had large transactions with him since 1859—I have done Business with him to the extent of 15,000l. altogether; not so large as my general transactions, but still it was a good deal—Mr. Newton invariably Bore the character of being a straightforward honourable man in all transactions I had with him, that was his general character; if there was any question as to the quality or other things, he made an allowance, if it was required and proved—the parcels, for which I was inde Bted were consigned to me direct through Newton—I do not know Agg at all—I should not know him if I saw him.

Gross-examined by MR. GIFFARD. Q. Did you expect to be paying that sum of money about that time? A. Mr. Newton, when I sold parcels for him, knew he could always have the money if he required it—the silk was sold on the 18th, and when I sold it, I told him he could have the money when he wished—the money was 270l. 7s. 6d.—if he had wanted the money that day, I should have given it to him.

MR. METCALFE. Q. Did Mr. Newton call on you on 18th March? A. Yes—there was 211 1bs. odd of silk at that time at my place—it was consigned to me, but Newton took it away—he told me in the morning that he bad sold it to Agg—my porter, Richard Jones, took it away by Newton's directions—it was taken away on the 18th, immediately, as soon as it could Be got ready—I got an offer for that for Mr. Newton, of 20s. on the Saturday, I and he told me I was to wait till Monday; and then he called in, and said he had sold it at 22s. per pound—that would amount to about 233l.—230l., odd—of course there would be the one per cent. storage which is usually allowed—I do not know when it was to be paid for—I had no transactions with Mr. Agg, neither did I interfere with Mr. Newton's transactions—it was to he taken to Morris.

RICHARD JONES . I was porter to Mr. Rigg on 18th March, but am not now—I recollect Mr. Newton being at Mr. Rigg's warehouse on that day—from something he said to Spencer, I took two Bags of silk to the Crown and Cushion, and delivered them there—I remember Newton coming in directly afterwards.

COURT to RICHARD RIGG. Q. What would be the discount? A. Three per cent. with one month's credit, and two per cent, to the Broker, one percent, Brokerage, and one per cent, as guarantee for the credit; five altogether.

Q. Rating it himself, he might allow anything lie liked? A. I do not I know; sold to me it would be five.

SAMUEL TYRRELL . I am a silk carman, and live at 77, London-Wall—I have known Newton about eighteen years—I have only carried one job for him during that period—I have known Agg from fourteen to sixteen years—I received directions from Newton, on 18th March, to go to the Crown and Cushion—I went there, and saw Newton and Agg, and another gentleman whom I did not know—I received instructions from Newton to take two bags of silk to Mr. Agg's house—I took them there—that is the regular way of taking out silk.

COURT. Q. Do you carry it from public-houses very often? A. No; but as Mr. Newton was staying there, I thought it was all right.

THOMAS ELLIS JONES . I am messenger of Messrs. Patterson s, Old Broad-street, and have been in their employ twenty-eight years—I know Agg—I know that he continued to deal in silk after he left Messrs. Drakeford's—I cannot tell you how long I knew him there—he was quite a lad when I first knew him—he was considered a respectable person while in their employment—I recollect being at the Crown and Cushion on 18th May, to see Mr. Newton—I there saw Tyrrell, the last witness—our house has had large dealings with Newton—we think very highly of him—I cannot say to what extent we have dealt with him; I think to about 5,000l. last year.

FRANK SHAW . I am a silk merchant, living in Derby—I retired from the business of a manufacturer last year—I have been in the silk trade twelve years—on Wednesday, 20th March, I met Hilton, the superintendent, in the market-place—he showed me some silk, and told me about the ten Bales being stolen, and about having De Bock and Barker in custody—in the after noon of that day I called at Newton's mill—young Newton snowed me some Bilk—except the two Books in Hilton's possession, I think 14s. a full price for that silk—I never take notice of the ties when I Buy silk—I should have bought them without ties—I should have bought that silk if it had been brought to me—I cannot say I should have given so much as that price for it—I have known Mr. Newton a great many years—he has always Borne the character of a respectable man of Business, and has been doing Business in a very large way—I know him as a Broker.

Cross-examined. Q. Did you examine the silk? A. I did; not every book, but as a lot; equally as much as I should if I had bought it—I looked at it in bulk, and I saw two Books of silk at Hilton's office—I observed that there were several different qualities in Newton's office; I should think five—I put a value on the highest and the lowest, and on the middle—the highest value I put was 19s.; the lowest 10s.—there was a very small proportion of the highest—I looked to see.

MR. METCALFE. Q. Did you examine it as much as if it had been offered to you for sale? A. Yes; 14s. is more than I should have given myself—silk was very low on that day—it has scarcely been so low in the market before as it was at that time; nor yet since.

JOSEPH LANDSFORD DAVENPORT . I am a silk manufacturer, with an extensive business, in Derby—on 20th March, Hilton and Fern, the superintendent and inspector of police, came to our mill, and told me of the arrest of Debock and Barker—they subsequently asked me and my partner, Mr. Craymer, to go with them to examine the silk at Newton's mill; and we did so—I was taken into the presence of De Bock and Barker before I went to Newton's—I heard De Bock say that he had not seen Newton—he said he knew Agg, and that he sold the silk to Agg—I am certain he said that—I cannot undertake to say whether that was from a question put to him, or a voluntary statement—Hilton went there to the lock-up with me, and we saw De Bock and Barker—De Bock said, "I sold the silk to Agg"—he said, "I have not seen Newton to-day"—he said he had not seen Newton with reference to the sale of the silk; that he had sold the silk to Agg—I am quite pure he said he had sold the silk to Agg—after leaving the lock-up, I went, in the afternoon, to Newton's house, and examined the silk—that was at the request of Fern and Hilton—I think from 14s. to 15s. a pound on an average was a fair price—silk was low that day—I did not notice that it was without ties—there was nothing suspicious about it for which I should have declined to Buy it, except its being mixed up altogether with different sorts—that was the result of its being taken out of the Bags and put on to the counter altogether—I did not see it till the afternoon of the 20th—the police did not, after I had expressed my opinion on it, to give my evidence at all—they did not require me to attend for the purposes of the prosecution in any way—I think I said that I did not consider the silk worth more than 15s. a pound—I heard young Newton give an explanation of the transaction—he showed a receipt from Agg for the silk—he said that he had paid 300l., given a cheque for 220l. more, and that the rest was to go to the Balance of account between Newton and Agg—that was said when Hilton and Fern were there—I think he offered to show his Books, but I cannot swear—he produced the invoice—he Behaved very well indeed—I haw known Newton some considerable time—I always considered him a respectable man—I believe he does a large Business.

Cross-examined. Q. I believe you expressed an opinion at the time, that the mixing all the silk together as it was, looked very suspicious? A. When I saw it it had been taken out of the bales and put on the counter—I do not remember saying that being unpacked and mixed together looked suspicious, or very suspicious—I dare say I might have said that the transacttion altogether was suspicious—Mr. Hilton did not, that I am aware of, say, "Did you ever do ten Bales of silk like this, Mr. Davenport?" nor do I recollect saying in answer, "Oh! dear, no, certainly not"—I might have said so—I do not think I did—I saw there were different qualities of silk—we frequently take the silk out of many Bales that we receive, and put it on

the counter in the same way—certainly I have seen silk treated in the way I saw this there, but we do not mix different qualities of silk—I saw this at Mr. Newton's mill, on Mr. Newton's counter—they were not all on the counter—there was one Bale of quite a distinct sort, on the floor—that was not mixed—I am not quite sure whether it was mixed or not when I saw it first—the parties that were there turned it all over, and afterwards it was mixed—it was all taken off the counter, looked over, and then pat on the counter again—I do not recollect Hilton saying, "You see, Mr. Davenport, this is all unpacked; is this usual?"—I do not recollect saying, "Oh! certainly not; it looks suspicious"—Hilton did not, that I am aware of say to me, "Did you ever do ten Bales of silk like this?"—I do not recollect the question ever being put—I did not, that I am aware of, say, "Certainly not—I might have said it, but I do not recollect—when I first went in, all the silk, with the exception of this Bale of skeins, was lying on the counter, and all open—it was taken out of the Bales and lay on the counter—I considered the whole transaction a suspicious one, from the effect of a super intendent of police calling on me and saying there had been a robbery—I do not remember saying to-day anything about the mixture of qualities being suspicious, but I was prepared to be suspicious of the transaction, having received information that this silk had been found under suspicions circumstances—I was suspicious myself—that is what I meant—I might have said, before I saw the silk, that I thought it was suspicions—I do not recollect saying so when I saw the silk—I will not undertake to say that I did not say so—I do not know that I said it seemed to me to have been got in some dishonest way, and that they wanted to get rid of it quickly—I will not undertake to say that I did not—I cannot recollect saying so at all—I deal in China silk myself—I never observed much about the ties at all—I never took any notice of them—I do not consider them of any importance at all—I saw the chop marks on the silk at Newton's—I cannot say whether, upon having a consignment of silk apparently coming direct from abroad, I ever did or did not observe such a lot without the ties on the silk, because I never took any notice of the ties—I may have received a a Bale of silk in which the chops were not to be found, but I never looked for them—I dare say I have observed it—I have been in my Business about thirty years—I think we usually found the ties on the silk, but they are not always given—it is a matter I have never thought anything at all about—I never look at the chops—they may furnish one means of identifying the silk; I do not know—I do not know what they are—there are Chinese characters on them—I never look at them—they are a matter of no importance to us—we merely look at the quality of the silk—not having looked for the chops, I cannot tell you whether, in the course of my thirty years experience, I have ever received half-a-dozen Bales without those chops in the silk—I never looked for them.

Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. Q. If you said anything about suspicion, did it apply to Mr. Newton or to De Bock and Barker? A. To De Bock and Barker—I do not recollect telling the police-constables that I thought there was any suspicion against Mr. Newton—they have not subpoenaed me at all—Mr. Lewis is a silk manufacturer there, and has a mill very near to Newton's—he is a magistrate also—I was before the Magistrates; not when Newton was there, but when De Bock and Barker were there—Mr. Lewis, the magistrate, was not there when I was there—he did not, when I was there, take an active part in sending Newton up to London for trial.

JOSEPH WILSON . I am a chenille manufacturer, of Bethnal-green—I have known Agg seven or eight years—I knew him at Messrs. Drakeford's and dealt with him for silk after he left them—I used to see him very frequently and Hunter with him—they were considered respectable men—they used to drive round in their cart to take orders—I produce an invoice, dated January 31st, and settled February 8th—this cheque for 108l. Bears my name; I paid it to Agg on March 9th—I found Mr. Newton's name on the back of it when it came from the Bank—I cannot tell what day I got it from the Bankers—I generally get my Book back about a week afterwards—I leave it once a week—I cannot swear to Newton's throw of silk, but I believe this to be his—I have bought some of Agg, which I believe to be Newton's throw, at different times.

Cross-examined by MR. GIFFARD. Q. I suppose you bank at the eastern branch of the London and Westminster Bank? A. Yes—I got the cheques in my pass-Book, as often as I send my pass-Book, so often do I get my returned cheques.

MR. METCALFE. Q. But you know that when it came back it had the name on it? A. Yes; I have another one the same.

SAMUEL LEACH . I am an attorney, in partnership with Mr. Gamble, at Derby—I have not been Mr. Newton's solicitor till a very short time ago—I believe he instructed me, because of my practice being particularly in Bankruptcy—I do not know his son at all—I was sent for on the 21st, and on the 22d Hilton came into my Bedroom rather early, and said that he had been to London, and Agg and Hunter were missing—it was understood that I should accompany him to the mill that morning—he said that he wanted further information, and he would not go behind my back to get it—when we got to the mill we found a person in charge of the ten Bales—Hilton asked to see the invoice again; young Newton brought it, and Hilton said that he should like a copy of it—I said, a You had Better take the original," and I made a copy, which I returned—I first saw the invoice on that occasion and the ledger also—Newton, junior, brought a number of Books down—I said, "Let me see the ledger," and page 114 was opened—it was in the same state as it is now; I noticed it very particularly—Hilton had the opportunity of examining it; but he said, "That is more for Mr. Turner than me"—I said, "We will not go into other transactions; let us understand this transaction of the 19th"—I found the name of Newton impressed on the corner of the invoice, and they brought me some paper to make the copy which Bore the same mark—that was noticed when it was suggested that it was drawn in London—young Newton gave every information; more than we required—Mr. Hilton said, "I do not want to go further into the transaction; I am quite satisfied"—Newton said that he had bought the silk of Agg and Hunter—I believe he said that they came down from London, and that he lost them at Rug By—I know he said that he had lost his ticket and Agg gave it to him next day, as he had it in his pocket, and that he took it to the railway station, and got his fare returned to him—I might say that there was no charge against Newton at that time, and he was examined more with the view to being a witness; I was quite thunderstruck when I heard he was given in custody—no man could give fuller explanations than he did, and his son also; the father referred to the son for the cash transactions—the explanation was given just as it has been given to day—I asked young Newton about the mode of making up the accounts in the ledger, but I found other accounts quite similar—the creditors afterwards retained me to act for them, and Mr. Broom was engaged two

days investigating the accounts—I also went through them, particularly in reference to Agg's transaction, and found them as Mr. Broom descri Bed them—the estate was quite solvent—in going through the Books, I did not find the slightest suspicion upon them—I was present when Newton waft at the police-court on the 27th—he was taken in about an hour before the meeting of the Magistrates—I was applied to, and appeared in court on his Behalf—Mr. Lewis, a silk manufacturer, whose mill is next to Mr. Newton's, sat upon the Bench, and it was suggested that Newton should Be sent to London without any statement, I opposed that, and said that I never heard of a man being sent from his home in custody without some prima facile case being made out—the clerk was very ill, and has since died—Mr. Hilton got up and made a speech—he was not sworn—he stated fact which he said could Be proved, and upon that statement the Magistrate sent Newton to London—Mr. Lewis said, "Do not allow him to speak to his legal advisers," and I subsequently had to plead very hard to speak to him, and was not allowed, except in the presence of Mr. Hilton—I saw him the same day, in Mr. Hilton's presence, but was not allowed to speak to him upon the transaction—I saw him on his monetary transactions, and he executed a deed of trust.

Cross-examined by MR. GIFFARD. Q. I believe the first time you visited the mill was on Saturday, the 3d? A. Yes—the ledger was then as it is now—I have seen it once or twice since, and it always appeared the same, balance and all—the officer was in charge of the silk at that time—I was first applied to on the Wednesday or Thursday; I think it was Thursday, 21st; it was, I think, one or two days before the Saturday—Hilton was in London, Because, when he came to me on Saturday morning, he said, "I hear you have been engaged for Newton"—I was retained by the creditors on the very night before Mr. Broom went into the investigation—I cannot remember the date: it was on 4th or 5th April—Mr. Broom was in Derby three days, and it was the first of those days—that was after the prisoners were committed to London—I fancy they were sent on the very day I was at the police court at Derby—I was only there once—Mr. Lewis was one of the Magistrates on the Bench—I do not say that he Behaved worse than anybody else.

MR. METCALFE. Q. You did not like the behavior of any of them? A. The prisoner was taken in custody either with or without a warrant—I do not know which; but he was going to be sent to London without any information—none was given.

Newton received an excellent character.

MR. GIFFARD re-called the following witnesses:

GORGE HILTON . I first saw the silk at Newton's mill about 9 o'clock on morning of the 20th—it was all mixed up, and I remarked it at the time.—MR. METCALFE objected to this evidence—first, because it was part of the original case, and could not therefore Be given in reply; and secondly, because grave imputations had been made upon the conduct of the Derby police, who had been in Court and heard them. THE COURT overruled the objection. I have not been in Court, and have heard nothing—I was ordered out—I know the character of the Derby police has been attacked here, and unjustly so—the silk was on the counter, and it had never been touched, I believe from that time until I took it away—I was there with Mr. Davenport, the first time I saw the silk—. I believe young Mr. Newton left it as I found it, until Mr. Thompson, who is a very clever man, saw it packed.

BENJAMIN FERN (re-examined). I went with Hilton to Newton's mill, on the morning of the 20th—I had been there in the night and called him up,

But never was there before the 20th—T saw a great quantity of silk on the counter or sideboard, and one bale lying on the floor covered over—I never touched the silk—on Sunday, 24th March, I went to Gutteridge to ask him questions about this matter—I spoke to him, but did not see him—I went to the bottom of the stairs and said, "You were ticket collector last Monday night"—he said, "I was"—I said, "I want you to tell me what you know about Newton and the party who came with him in the train"—I asked him what he knew about it—he said, "I cannot remember anything about who came besides Newton; the reason I noticed Newton was, that he was drunk and had lost his ticket."

Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. Q. Were you out of Court when Gutteridge was examined? A. I went out before his examination wag finished—some part of the questions were asked before I went out—I we out when the order was made—I did not, I believe, put my head down and cover my face with my hands when Gutteridge was answering these questions—Superintendent Mumford did not come and tell me to put my head up and not let the Jury see me in that bate—he never came to me, not to speak to me and I never put my head down—I knew Gutteridge and Taylor were coming up, told the attorney what had occurred—I did not know that Taylor was the guard of that very train—I did not inquire who was the guard—I understood, till lately, that Wilcoxon was the guard—I saw him the day but one after; that was the first time I heard him say anything about it—I knew he was a guard, and I took it that he was the guard of that train. I did not ask him at that time if he knew anything about it; he told me without asking.

Q. Be very careful, because Wilcoxon has been examined, and has sworn you never found him out till Saturday last; did you go to him before Saturday last? A. I did—I had not time to ascertain who was the guard of that train till Saturday last—I knew he was the guard, and had been many years—the first time I asked him about coming as a witness was Saturday last—I can tell you the conversation—he said, "I should have got into the same carriage as Newton, Barker, and Debock, if one of them had not been drunk"—he did not tell me that he himself had been drinking—he did not tell me that he was in the carriage—I always thought, till last Saturday, week, that Wilcoxon was the guard, and yet I made no inquiries of him till Saturday last—I did not go to How Bottom, but he came to me about ten days ago.

COURT. Q. Did you hear any rumor that Newton had been robbed? A. I heard his portmanteau was missing—in the conversation I had with Wilcoxon, I did not hear him say, "What a pity it is I did not know it; I could have caught them, for I let them into the train."

WILLIAM GARRETT . I was telegraphed for last night, to come up this morning—I remember, on the night of 18th, or morning of the 19th March, Gutteridge bringing Newton to me to pay his fare—he said, "This gentle man has lost his ticket"—he did not say to Newton, in my presence, "Where have you lost your ticket?"—I heard Newton say he did not know where he had lost it, unless one of the two men who were with him had got it—he said that in Gutteridge's presence.

Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. Q. Was the ticket afterwards found and brought to the office, and the money paid? A. Yes; I do not know when—I heard say that Mr. Newton had got his money returned—I am sure Gutteridge heard that; he stood by at the time—nobody else stood By—I do not think Bartlett was there, but I could not see all over the office—I did not sec him in the booking office—the money was paid to me.





DEBOCK— GUILTY OF RECEIVING.—Recommended to mercy by the Jury. — Confined Eighteen Months.


Before Mr. Recorder.

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-518
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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518. PATRICK FLYNN (36) , Stealing a gold locket, a chain, and seal, value 10l. 10s., of William Lewers, from his person.

MR. DICKIE conducted the Prosecution.

WILLIAM LEWERS . I am a Barrister, and have chambers at 3, Brick-court, Temple—on Saturday, 11th May, I had been dining at the Trafalgar, at Greenwich, along with other members of the Durham Sessions, and Between half-past 10 and 11 o'clock I was returning with my friends to the station—when we got near the railings of the College the prisoner and another man came up—I was walking with my friend Mr. Shield—the prisoner caught at my watch-chain, and it immediately went—I pursued him; in fact, we all pursued him—there were five of us together, myself and Mr. Shield in front, and three other friends Behind—after running for about forty or fifty yards we overtook him—I seized him a second or two after Mr. Shield had done so—a crowd came up, and he was taken to the station—I did not clearly see the prisoner's face as he came in front of me, but I never lost sight of him—I am quite certain that the man I seized was the man who took my chain—he was searched at the station in my presence, and this locket (produced) was found upon him—it was Broken, and the ring also, from the violence—the chain has not been recovered—the watch remained in my pocket—I am quite sure this locket is mine—it has initials on it by which I know it.

HUGH SHIELD . I am a Barrister in the Temple, and a fellow of Jesus College, Cam Bridge—on Saturday night, 11th May, I was with Mr. Lewers, about 11 o'clock—as we were walking from the Trafalgar to the station, past the College railings, I having hold of Mr. Lewers' arm, I saw two men meet us, and presently I heard Mr. Lewers call out, "He has got my watch"—I turned sharp round, and gave chase—I never lost sight of the man for a moment—I am certain the prisoner is one of the two men that met us—I cannot say what Became of the other—I cannot say that I saw the pull—I was present when the locket was found upon him at the station—the processsion to the station was accompanied by another person, whom we fancied was an accomplice.

GAINSFORD BRUCE . I am a Barrister in the Temple—I was at the dinner at the Trafalgar on 11th May last—on our way to the station I was walking a short distance behind Mr. Lewers—I saw a man run from him across the road—I gave chase, and came up to him almost directly after Mr. Lewers and Mr. Shield—the man I gave chase to I took to the station—I do not recognise him again—I saw the locket found on him.

THOMAS FOXLEY (Policeman A 48). On Saturday night, 11th May, about twenty minutes to 11 o'clock, I was on duty at Greenwich, and heard the prosecutor cry out, "He has got my watch"—I immediately turned round and saw three gentlemen running after the prisoner—I ran and caught him by the collar—I asked the prosecutor what he had been doing, and he said he would give him in charge for stealing his watch—I took him to the

station—he was very violent, and kicked, and tried all he could to get away—about half way there some man came in front of us and us going to interfere, but I told him to stand back, and after that I never saw him again—I took the prisoner to the station, searched him, and found this gold locket in his right-hand trousers pocket—as soon as I had charged him I went back to the spot, and found this piece of gold chain lying in the gutter by the side of the road, just where we had been scrambling together—he said he did not know how the locket came into his pocket.

Prisoners Defence. I have nothing to say. If I am guilty of it, I throw myself on the mercy the Court I have been in service in Russia for the last fifteen years. I hope the Court will not be hard upon me if I am found guilty, which I am very much afraid I shall be.

GUILTY .— Confined Six Months.

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-519
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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519. PETER BROWN (22) , Stealing 2s. 6d., the monies of William Hadley, his master.

MR. LEWIS conducted the Prosecution.

The prisoner, being a foreigner, had the evidence explained by an interpreter.

WILLIAM HADLEY . I am a baker, at Woolwich—the prisoner was in my employment for about six weeks—I made a communication to the police, and from what they said I marked some money—I marked 13s. 6d., the whole of the money in the drawer—it consisted of three half-crowns, one two shilling-piece, two shillings, and two sixpences—I marked them in the ear, and just underneath the neck—I then placed them in the till, and went into my bakery—the prisoner was there when I left the shop—I returned in about two and a half or three minutes—I then examined the till, and found that one half-crown was gone—the policeman has it—it is one of those I marked—I went for a policeman, and the prisoner was searched in my presence—he was asked to produce his purse; he did so, and the constable took the half-crown out of it—I gave him into custody.

The prisoner's statement before the Magistrate was read as follows; "Mr. Hadley gave that money to me himself I never touched a penny I received from the customers."

Prisoners Defence. After having served the customers, Mr. Hadley paid me with that money. He was drunk.

WILLIAM HADLEY (re-examined.) It is not true; I did not give him the half-crown—no customers came in from the time I put the money in the till until I missed the half-crown.

GUILTY .— Confined Eighteen Months.

The prosecutor stated that he had lost upwards of 6l. in the six weeks the prisoner was with him, and 6l. 6s. 6d. in silver was found in his box.

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-520
VerdictGuilty > unknown; Guilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment; Imprisonment

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520. ELLEN MURPHY (32), and CHARLOTTE COPPELL (18) , Stealing a watch chain, seal, breast-pin, and medal, the property of John Crane, from his person.

MR. KEMP conducted the Prosecution.

JOHN CRANE . I am a pensioner in Greenwich Hospital—I remember being in Greenwich on 2nd May about the middle of the day—I was accosted by the prisoners—they stopped me and asked me for a man of the name of Jones, belonging to the College—I said I knew two or three Jones', and asked what ward he belonged to—I named several wards, till I came to the Duncan—they said that was it—I said if they went down to the main guard they could direct them to the ward—they said the man had deceived them, and they

would not wait any longer for him; and they pressed me to go and have a drop of Beer for my kindness—we went to the Ro Bin Hood in the Greenwich-road, and we had altogether two pots of porter and two pints—they paid for the first and I paid for the other—we then went into the White Swan, and I called for a quartern of gin and mixed it with hot water, and we drank it—they then persuaded me to go a little further up the road with them—they said they had nothing to do, and had come out for a spree, and advised me to stop a little longer with them—I consented, and we went into another public-house, and had another quartern of gin and some hot water—they then found that I was going away, and said, "Let us have a drop of neat gin; we don't like mixed liquors"—I went in with them and we had some gin, and I recollects no more for seven hours—they drugged me there, and had no more intellects—when I came to my senses, I was in the station-house—I missed a gold Breast-pin, my watch, guard, and chain, and a silver medal—I had that property about me just before I Became insensible, Because, when I wanted to leave between 2 and 3, I looked at my watch, and saw what it was o'clock--J did not give either of those things to the prisoners, and had no idea of anything of the kind—I valued them at 4l.—this (produced) is my Breast-pin, which I had in my Bosom at the time.

Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. Who paid for all this drink? A. I paid, for the beer and for the first gin; they paid for the last quartern; I paid For all the rest—I was with them altogether about two hours and a half or nearly three hours—I am perfectly sure that the prisoners are the two women I met—I had no particular fancy for either of them—I did not invite them into the public-house—they invited me to have a share of a pint of beer—I resisted going in two or three times, but they persuaded me to go—I am seventy-eight years of age.

CHARLOTTE THORPE . I am the wife of Charles Thorpe, of 13, John-street, Deptford—the back windows of our house overlook the arches of the Dept-ford railway—on the afternoon of 2d May, between 3 and 4 o'clock, I saw the two prisoners bring the old college-man along, one having hold of each arm—I saw them push him down near the railway arch, and I saw Murphy take something from him, I could not see what, while Coppell was in the next arch looking out to see if there was any one coming—I stood looking at them—I saw them both come together and look at the old man, and look at what they had got, and then I saw them go away—I could not see what they had got—I saw no more of them till I saw them at the police court—I am quite sure they are the women—I went down to the old man; he was quite insensible.

Cross-examined. Q. Had you known the women before? A. No—my window is about as far as the length of this court from the arches—Murphy was taking something from the old man, whilst Coppell was in the next arch, with a baby in her arms—I saw them both go away together—Murphy carried away the property; I could not see what it was—I saw her show it to Coppell, and Coppell was looking in Murphy's hand.

ALFRED JOHN CROUCH (Policeman, R 92). I took the prisoners into custody on 2d May—I met them in King-street—Murphy was carrying a child—I told them they would be charged with robbing a college man, while drunk, under the railway-arch, of his watch, chain, seal, medal, and breastpin—they said they knew nothing about it—I took them to the Deptford station—Coppell was taken by the female searcher into a room to be searched, and she brought her back, and stated in her presence that she Had found this pin upon her—I asked her how she accounted for the possession

of it—she said it was her own, that se had had it given to her, and had had it some time—it. was afterwards identified by the prosecutor—a half-crown was found on Murphy—the other property has not been found—I had received a description of the prisoners from Mrs. Thorpe.

Coppell's statement before the Magistrate was read as follows:—"The college man gave man the pin to go home with me."

MURPHY— GUILTY .**— Confined Twelve Months.

COPPELL— GUILTY .— Confined Three Months.

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-521
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude; Imprisonment

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521. HENRY BURGOYNE (27), and ALFRED JOHNSON (23) , Burglariously breaking and entering the dwelling-house of Joseph Hanwell, and stealing three pairs of boots, and other articles, value 2l., his property.

JOHN NEALE . I am a gunner in the Royal Artillery, and servant to Captain Joseph Hanwell, who lives at Charlton—on 23d May I was at my master's house—I locked up between 10 and half-past—the house was made secure; the doors were locked, and the windows closed—I got up at half-past 5 next morning—I discovered that some persons had broken through the window of a small scullery at the back of the kitchen, and entered by forcing through the bars; the wire was all torn out—I found the winecellar door forced open, and some wine and spirits gone, and the drawers all ran sacked—I missed two coats and a vest, three pairs of Boots, a ham, and two handkerchiefs, the property of my master—the coats I was in the habit of wearing; these (produced) are them, and here is a Bottle which has the same mark on the cork as those in my master's cellar—a screwdriver was missing; this is it.

Burgoyne. Q. By what means can you swear to the coats? A. by the make; I have only had them a short time—there is no mark on this coat—I have tried it on, and am sure it is my coat, and the waistcoat also—the pocket of the coat, when brought to me, was full of eggs taken from the dresser, and were Broken in the pocket.

RICHARD AUSTIN (Policeman, R 49). About 7 o'clock on the morning of 24th May I received information of the Burglary, and about half-past 8 I saw the prisoner Johnson lying down in Union-street, Woolwich, drunk—that is about a mile or a mile and a half from the prosecutor's house—I raised him up, and then observed this pair of Boots in his coat pocket, and he had on this coat and hat, which have been produced—he was too drunk to be spoken to; when he came to himself, I asked how he came in possession of these things—he said he picked them up in the Charlton-road—in his trousers pocket I found a screwdriver and a Bottle of wine—in the course of the morning, Burgoyne was brought to the station—he was also drunk—he had on this coat and waistcoat—in his trousers pocket were two Bottles of gin, and in the coat pocket some Broken eggs—he said he picked them up coming from Chiselhurst—I took off the Boots which the prisoners were wearing, and compared them with some footmarks in the prosecutor's garden; they seemed to correspond—I put the Boots into the footmarks, and here is a nail on this one rather loose at the tip, and that could Be seen in the footmark; I am sure that impression was there before I put the Boot into it—I merely but the Boot in just to compare it; you could see the print of the other Boot in the garden Beds.

Burgoyne. Q. Who was present when you watched the footmarks? A. Captain Hanwell; no one else.

CHARLES WILDERSPIN (Policeman, R 268). I received information of this robbery, and discovered two pairs of boots and half a ham concealed in a dung-heap, in Rodney-street, Woolwich.

JAKES DREW (Policeman, R 184). I apprehended Burgoyne, and took him to the station, and the articles spoken to by Austin were found upon him.

MARY MUNTON . I live at No. 2, Mary Ann-terrace, opposite the Ship and Half-Moon, at Woolwich—there is a dung-heap near there—on the morning of 24th May, about half-past six, I saw a man go and put two bundles in that dung-heap—Johnson is the man—I gave information to the police—I looked to see what things they were that he hid, and they were two pairs of Wellington Boots and a handkerchief.

Burgoyne's Defence. I was taken up on the Friday morning, being quite drunk and incapable of taking care of myself. Nothing was said about the footmarks on the first examination. The man-servant states that the entry was made by the scullery window. It is very strange that people should put up bars that people can get through. He does not speak to any peculiarity about the footmarks, but the policeman can. I think it is a got up concern by the policeman.

JOHN NEALE (re-examined). There had been a way forced through the scullery window—there were some upright bars—they had not been forced away—it appears that there was room to get between the bars—there was no other way of getting in.


Burgoyne was further charged with having been before convicted.

WILKINSON (Policeman, R 12). I produce a certificate—(Read: "Henry Thompson, convicted, July, 1856, at Maidstone, of Burglary. Four years' Penal Servitude.") I was present at that trial—Burgoyne is the person mentioned—there is another conviction against him—I believe he served the whole four years.

BURGOYNE—GUILTY.— Four Years' Penal Servitude.

JOHNSON— Confined Twelve Months.

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-522
VerdictGuilty > with recommendation

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522. WILLIAM CRAIG (23, an Artilleryman), Stealing 1 pouch and 2 belts, value 12l., the property of Arthur Napier Pearse.

ARTHUR NAPIER PEARSE . I am a lieutenant in the Royal Artillery, at Woolwich—I joined my corps on 13th February—a short time before that I had a set of military belts made for me—I received them from Messrs. Hunt and Guthrie—I had them in my accoutrement case for the first month when I was lodging on the Common, because I could not get any quarters—afterwards I got quarters, and moved into them, and then the belts were in my drawers—they were safe then—I do not remember the exact date when I moved into quarters; I think it was about the middle of March—I missed them on the night of the ball given by the Marines at Woolwich—I think that was about 6th May—I had seen them, in packing up, in the third week in March—I do not know the prisoner at all—these (produced) resemble the Belts I lost—there is no particular mark on them; but when I was trying them on, the waist-Belt was rather loose, and the outfitter, in giving it a sudden pull, made a scratch here, and sent the Buckle the wrong way, which he could not get back again—I see that—they are perfectly new—I gave 10l. or 12l. for them.

WILLIAM RYDER . I am a gold-lace artist—some time since Christmas we made a set of Royal Artillery belts, for Messrs. Hunt ad Guthrie—the pouch was returned to us, as not being according to the regulation, and we made another instead—I believe the one produced to be the one we made—the first was silver, and this is gold—it is a particular shape, made especially to order—it is the only one of the kind we have made—I know it is one of our make.

TIMOTHY SPENCER . I am a military outfitter, at 32, Argyll-street—I knew the prisoner as servant to a medical officer in the Artillery for about four years—on 17th April last I met him at the railway station, London-Bridge—he said he was about proceeding to my place, that he had got a day's leave, for the purpose of disposing of a set of dress belts which he had, and would I purchase them, or direct him to some persons in London who would purchase them—I said I thought he would not be able to sell them so well in London as in Woolwich, because in London they would give little more than they would burn at, which would be about 30s.; but at Woolwich he might get a trifling advance upon that price—he said, "I should Be very much obliged if you would take them of me; I should Be quite satisfied with 2l."—I said "I have lately disposed of a set in Woolwich for 2l. 12s., so I can promise you 2l., if not a little more"—he said, Very well"—I took the parcel from him, suggesting that we should adjourn to the waiting-room to examine whether the Belts were as he represented them to Be, as good as new, having only been worn two or three times—the train was near starting, and he said, "There is not time for that; I will leave them in your possession"—I was going to Eltham, and said I would be in Woolwich about 6 in the evening, and appointed to meet him there, and give him 2l. or return the Belts—I got to Woolwich about half-past 5, and sold them to Mr. Hart, an old neighbour of mine, for 2l. 12s.—I cannot swear to the Belts—there was a mark of this description on the Belts I sold Mr. Hart—the prisoner said he had had them locked up in a Box for a considerable period, and he thought they belonged to an officer who had gone on the Chinese expedition—I had not then examined them—I did not see anything in their appearance calculated to excite suspicion.

Prisoner. Q. You cannot swear these are the belts you sold to Mr. Hart? A. I can say that the belts you sold to me I sold to Mr. Hart—I gave you two sovereigns—I did not say what I had sold them for.

PHILIP HART . I am a general dealer at Woolwich—I bought a set of military belts of Mr. Spencer on 17th April—on 16th May a gentleman from Mr. Pearse came and asked if I had got anything to sell—I showed them to him, and he said he had lost them, and I gave them up to the constable—I gave Mr. Spencer 2l. 12s. for them.

Prisoner. Q. Had you any more belts in your possession? A. No.

RICHARD AUSTIN (Policeman, R 49). On 13th May, I went to Mr. Hart's shop, in consequence of information, and got these belts from him—next day I apprehended the prisoner—I asked if he knew Mr. Spencer, who was with me—he said, "Yes"—I said, "Have you had any transaction with him?"—he said, "Yes; I have"—I said, "Did you ever sell him a set of gold belts?"—he said, "Yes; I did"—I said, "For how much?"—he said, "2l?"—I said, "How did you come by them?"—he said, "I had them from Dr. Fiddles ’servant, six months ago, and have had them in my possession two years."

Prisoners Defence. The belts I sold Mr. Spencer, I bought in December last from Dr. Fiddes' servant. I gave him 10s. for them, and kept them in my possession till August last, when I sold them to Mr. Spencer.

GUILTY.—He received a good character and was recommended to mercy. — Confined Three Months.

Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-523
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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523. ALFRED WALLACE (27) , Stealing 3 planes, 4 chisels, and other articles, value 1l. 12s. of James Upchurch; and 3 planes, 1 square, and I saw, value 15s., of Alfred Rayner. HE PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Six Months.

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-524
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

Related Material

524. CATHERINE POTTER (35) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin, to which she

PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Nine Months.


Before Mr. Recorder.

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-525
VerdictGuilty > with recommendation

Related Material

525. HENRY UPTON (21), and JOSEPH MATTHEWS (21) , Burglariously breaking and entering the dwelling-house of Charles Collyer, and stealing therein 1 basket, and 1 bottle of brandy, his property.

MR. PLATT conducted the Prosecution.

CHARLES HUMBY . I am barman to Mr. Collyer, of the Plough and Harrow public-house, in Lambeth parish—on the morning of 7th May, between 2 and 3 o'clock, I was awoke by the servant, Mary Ann Stone, coming to my door, and, from something she said, I went down into the Bar—as I was going down, I heard a sound as if the door was closing—I went to the door—it was not as I had left it the night Before, it was open—I did not notice whether there was any violence outside or not—I then went outside the door, and saw the prisoner (Upton) in custody—there was a Basket very near to him, on the pavement, which contained eight Bottles of Brandy—I knew the Brandy by the seal—it had been on a fiat behind the Bar the night Before—it Belongs to my employer, Mr. Collyer—I went outside, and looked at the window—it had been pulled down from the outside—it slides up and down—I went to Bed at half-past 11 the night Before—the window and door were safe at that time—I fastened the door with this Bolt inside the night Before—I should imagine the parties got in at the window—Both the prisoners were in my master's employment about twelve months ago.

Cross-examined by MR. DICKIE. Q. Did you say you fastened these shutters the previous night? A. Yes; with a peg—I did that myself—the window drops down—there is no fastening to the window—the shutter is fastened inside—the window slides down—I fastened the shutters—the window was down—the peg is a wooden spill—I have been out of a night myself—it is a common practice for the young people engaged in this house to go out in the evening after business is over.

JURY. Q. Was the window fastened by that small bolt? A. There is a large iron bar which comes across, and that secures the Bar in—the Bar drops into a staple—this peg secures it.

COURT. Q. Who was in the house on this night? A. Myself, the servant, and Mr. Collyer—I was not out after I went to bed at half-past 11—the shutter slides up outside—you cannot move the shutter without letting the window down—the window must go down when you slide up the shutters—the peg was on the floor in the morning—it must have been forced away.

MR. DICKIE. Q. Was there another male servant? A. Yes; but he was not in the house when I went to bed—he went out about 9 o'clock—I am sure he did not come back that night.

MARY ANN STONE . I am servant to Mr. Collyer—on this morning I was disturbed between 2 and 3 o'clock by the shutters going down—in consequence of that, I went and knocked at Humby's Bedroom door, and he and I went down together—on the way down, I heard the chain of the door moving, nothing else.

Cross-examined. Q. Have you been in the habit of going out at night after business hours? A. No—Henry Hunt was in my master's employ besides Hum By—I did not see him that evening—I know nothing about him—my employer is not addicted to habits of intemperance—he is never tipsy.

JOSEPH PRIOR (Policeman, L 23). On the morning of 7th May, about a quarter to 3, I was on duty near the Plough and Barrow public-house—I observed the prisoner Matthews close to the door of that house, outside—he went down Lower Kenniugton-lane into Duke's Head-court—I went to the door, and found it was closed—I heard somebody inside, and called another constable's attention to it—during that time, I saw Matthews come from Duke's Head-court, and go into Newington-crescent—I knew him—I am sure he was the man—I returned to the house, looked at the door again, and found it give when I put my hand to it—it was moved by some one inside, some one pressing it on the inside—when I saw Matthews come from Duke's Head-court into Newington-crescent I spoke to the other constable—Upton then came out from the house—he had a Basket with him, containing twelve Bottles of Brandy—it is here—as he came out of the house, the door caught his heel, and he fell outside, and Broke four of the Bottles—I took him into custody—he said, "I hope you haye coached the one that brought me into it; that is Joe"—I took him to the station, and afterwards went to look for Matthews—I found him in the Star coffee-shop, in the London-road—that is about half a mile from there—I charged him with being concerned with Upton in a Burglary at the Plough and Harrow public-house—he said, "I know nothing at all about it; I have not seen Upton since the early part of the evening, when I left him to go home"—after-taking him to the station, I returned to the public-house and looked at the window—I found that the window is always kept down, and the shutters are pulled up from the outside—there is a flap outside, and this Bolt is inside, and a peg comes from the outside, and drops into the Bar—they must have pulled the shutters down, and got in over the window, and then closed the shutters again—there were marks as if some one had got over it—I found the peg in the middle of the Bar.

Cross-examined. Q. When you first came up to this house, do I understand you to say you saw the door open three or four inches? A. Yes; I touched it, and some one inside closed it—I knew both of the prisoners quite well—I knew them at the time they lived there—it was getting light at this time, about a quarter to 3 in the morning—Upton came out of the house about three minutes after Matthews went away—I took Upton first—he came out with this large basket on his arm—I believe it was taken from the Bar—I have the spill here (produced)—the shutters were up when I got there.

COURT. Q. How did they get the peg out? A. By driving it from the outside—there was no screw used—they struck the spill, and it went through.

LEWIS DOLEN (Policeman, P 81). About half-past 2 on this morning, last witness called my attention to the house, and I saw Upton come out from the public-house with a basket containing twelve Bottles of Brandy—he fell down with it, got up again, and ran away some distance—Prior got hold of him—I picked up the Bottles, and a screw or Bolt, with the Brandy.

Cross-examined. Q. Was there anything else missed? A. Not that I am aware of—I found nothing else on them; no house-Breaking implements—I did not know them before.

COURT. Q. Did Upton appear to be drunk? A. Apparently they had been drinking, but not so drunk as not to know what they were about.

The Prisoners' statements before the Magistrate were here read as follows—Uptou says, "I was very drunk, or I should not have attempted such a thing. Matthews says, "I was drunk at the time, and I did not enter the house."

GEORGE MILLER (Police-sergeant, L 20). In the morning of this day, at 2 o'clock, I first saw the two prisoners together, about 400 yards from this

house—I am positive they are the men, and half-an-hour after that I saw them again.

Matthews. I live only twenty yards from the spot.

GUILTY.—Recommended to Mercy. — Confined Six Months.

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-526
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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526. MARGARET HENNESSY (18) , Robbery, with three others, on Benjamin Walton, and stealing a watch and chain, his goods.

MR. W. J. ABRAM conducted the Prosecution.

BENJAMIN WALTON . I am a coach-Builder, and live at Cumberland Cottage, Kennington-green—on the night of 28th May, about 11 o'clock, I was coming along Kennington-lane, by Vauxhall Gardens, and was accosted by two females—the prisoner is one of them—we went to the Duke of Cambridge public-house opposite—I gave them a pint of ale—while there the prisoner took up her dress, and I saw that it was torn—I had only had about half a glass of ale—I had nothing before that day—we stayed in the public-house about five minutes—I left it alone—the women followed me, and caught hold of my arm—I went round Durham-street—they still had hold of my arm—I then came round the Oval, and back into Kennington-lane—they pulled me down Miller's-lane, near a chapel there—the other woman had hold of my right arm, and the prisoner was on the other side of her—she went up to two men—she was not above half a minute gone—I did not lose sight of her—she came back almost directly, and, while she was coming back, I received a Blow across my mouth which knocked me down, and knocked two of my teeth out and loosened several—it was one of the men that gave me that Blow—I did not see whether it was done with some loaded instrument—the other woman still had hold of my arm, and while I was on the ground she took my watch and guard—the prisoner was about a yard off at that time—I was insensible for a time from the Blow, but only for about two minutes—when I recovered my senses, I saw the prisoner running off towards Vauxhall-Bridge—I did not lose sight of her till she was stopped by the police.

Cross-examined by MR. DICKIE. Q. Had you ever seen her before? A. No—I was about five minutes in the public-house with her—this was between half-past 10 and 11—I was on the ground when I was robbed.

WILLIAM SMITH (Policeman, L 158). About 11 o'clock on the night of 28th May, I was near Miller's-lane—I saw the prisoner coming along between a run and a walk, out of that lane, and directly after I saw a man run out—he said something to her as he ran past, but what it was I could not under-stand—about a minute or two afterwards I saw the prosecutor come out of the lane with another man—in consequence of what he said I went and took the prisoner into custody—I found that her dress was torn and pinned up—she said she knew nothing about it, that she had come the other way, from Vauxhall-Bridge—I am quite sure she was coming out of Miller's-lane towards Vauxhall-Bridge.

Cross-examined. Q. Has the watch been found? A. No—it was dark in Miller's-lane, but there was a lamp at the corner—the prisoner came out right fronting me—I was on the opposite side of Kennington-lane—she came straight out into the middle of the road—it is a narrow street there—there was not another person there except the prisoner and the man who ran past—seven or eight persons came up afterwards, when I took hold of the prisoner, but there was not one person there till I had taken hold of her—she gave two addresses, one of them was a correct one—I do not know of her ever having been convicted before.

JURY. Q. Had you an opportunity of seeing the man who ran past and spoke to her? A. Yes; and I should know him again.

The prisoner's statement before the Magistrate was here read as follows:—I was going to the races, but it was too far, and I turned back and walked till I came to Vauxhall station. When I got opposite Miller's-lane I saw the policeman. I asked a female to give me a pin, as my dress was torn, and the prosecutor said I was with the woman who took his watch." GUILTY .— Confined Eight Months.

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-527
VerdictGuilty > unknown; Guilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment; Imprisonment > penal servitude

Related Material

527. JOHN SULLIVAN (17), and JOHN RYAN (17) , Robbery, with violence upon Henry Turner, and stealing 14s. his money.

MR. LILLEY conducted the Prosecution.

HENRY TURNER . I am a journeyman Butcher, and live at Hoxton Old Town—on Saturday, 19th May, I was working at Brixton-hill—I was returning home from my employment that evening—I came to London-Bridge on the' Bus—I there met a friend of mine, a Baker, and we went to his Brother's, at Dock head—I remained there till about 1 in the morning—we had something to drink there, but I was as sober as I am now—on my way from Dock head to London-Bridge I met a female, and went with her to a public-house—we did not get any drink there—as soon as I came out of the house the prisoners came up to me—Sullivan said, "Where are you going?"—I said, "I am off home"—he put his arm round my neck, and Ryan rifled my pockets—I had two waistcoats on—the top waistcoat they ripped right up—I had 14s. or 15s. in my right hand under waistcoat pocket—I halloed out "Police" directly they let go of me, and a policeman came up on the instant—the prisoners ran down a court—I missed my money—I had felt it safe not three minutes Before—I also lost my scarf from my neck—after going with the policeman to the station, I went back with him, and Went into one of the houses down the court, into which the prisoners ran—I saw Sullivan in a room there lying on the Bed, and two other men beside him—he then had on a corduroy jacket—I said, "That is the man, but he has not got on the same jacket"—I knew him the instant I saw him—he was on the further side of the Bed—a man who was in the room jumped up, and said to Sullivan, "Pull off that jacket; you have no Business here," and then he got off the Bed, and put on his own—this was between 1 and 2 o'clock—the policeman then took him into custody—Ryan had been previously caught at the Bottom of the court, and it was in consequence of what he said that we went to this house.

Sullivan. Q. He at first said that another man was the one that robbed him? A. I did not—the policeman took another man, but I said I knew nothing of him, and he was liberated.

DENNIS CLARK (Policeman, M 108). Between 1 and 2 o'clock on Sunday morning, 19th May, I was on duty near Tattle-court, Bermondsey—I heard a cry of police, and immediately went to the spot, which was in Tattle-court, and I saw Ryan and another man run away—I could not swear to the other man—I saw the prosecutor, and asked him what was the matter—he gave me information, and in consequence of what he said I went and got the assistance of Policeman 112 and gave him directions—he brought back Ryan—the prosecutor immediately said, "That is the man"—Ryan then said, "I won't do any time for any one again, for it is King Sullivan as has done this ere jo B"—he went with us to a house in Davis-court, Tattle-court, and pointed out a house where I should find Sullivan—that was in the direction in which I had seen the men run from the prosecutor—Ryan told

me to go up stairs, and I found Sullivan lying on the Bed with it corduroy jacket on and his clothes all on—I pulled him, he woke up directly, and the party Belonging to the house said, "What Brings you here? you don't live here"—the prosecutor said, "That is the man"—the other man turned round directly and said, "You have got my corduroy jacket on;"I put on his flannel jacket; and the prosecutor said, "I can swear to that man's face"—I told him the charge, and he said he knew nothing at all about it.

Ryan. Q. You took another chap, and did not he tell you who had done it?. A. Certainly not—I got another man to come with me; it was the one that owned the corduroy jacket, but I did not take him into custody.

FREDERICK HOUGH (Policeman, M 112). Between 1 and 2 in the morning of 19th May, in consequence of information from Clark, I went in to Tattle-court, the reverse way to Clark, and met Ryan coming out of the court—I stopped him and told him I wanted him, and he must go back with me—he said, "What do you want me for?"—I said for robbing a man in Tattle-court—we met Clark and the prosecutor, and Ryan said, "I won't do any more time for anybody; it was King Sullivan that done it; I will take you to the house"—he took us to a house, and there Clark apprehended Sullivan.

Sullivan's Defence. I was coming down Tattle-court between 1 and 2 o'clock, and saw a man making towards the door of a Brothel; he said he had been robbed by a woman. There was a mo B of people outside. I went on, and thought I would go up to see my aunt. I went up and lay by my cousin on the Bed, and while I was there these people came up. At first the prosecutor spoke to another man and then to me. I had taken a little drop, and put on the wrong jacket. They then took, me to the station.

Ryan's Defence. I was bidding a chap good-night, and saw Sullivan walk down the court with a white jacket on like mine, and when the policeman poke to me and said he wanted me for robbing a man in Tattle-court, I said, "It can't Be me, it must Be King Sullivan; he had on a jacket like mine," and I told them where he was.

SULLIVAN— GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months.

RYAN— GUILTY .**†— Six Years' Penal Servitude.

Before Mr. Recorder.

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-527a
VerdictGuilty > with recommendation

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527. FRANCIS PERRITO (55) , Feloniously killing and slaying John Lynch. He was also charged on the Coroners' Inquisition with the like offence. MESSRS. SLEIGH and KEMP conducted the Prosecution.

The evidence was interpreted to the prisoner.

THOMAS DWTER . I am a private in the 1st Royal Surrey Militia—the deceased, John Lynch, was in the same regiment—on the evening of 29th April, between 9 and 10 o'clock, I was at the Magpie, at Richmond, in a room on the ground floor—some other militia men, some civilians, and the prisoner were there and three females—they were talking and drinking—just as I went in I saw the prisoner rush into the room, Lynch was close to the fire-place—I did not notice what he was doing—(he prisoner stabbed him in the groin, and then gave it a little touch up—I saw a knife in his hand—I rushed at Lynch, caught hold of him, and hallooed put "Police!"—the witness Jones went for a policeman—the prisoner was very roughly handled afterwards by the people in the room; they struck him several Blows.

Cross-examined by MR. TINDAL ATKINSON. Q. Had Lynch and the others heen drinking there? A. I suppose so; I was not there at the beginning; the

first I saw was the prisoner rush into the room—I did not see him struck with any Belts, but they certainly used him severely.

JOHN JONES . I am a private in the militia—I was at the Magpie on that night, between 9 and 10 o'clock, in the front room—there were other militiamen there, with Lynch and the prisoner, and one woman—the prisoner was standing with his back against a dresser, I believe—Lynch was talking to the woman—I believe it was the prisoner's wife—Lynch asked her to fetch in a pot of Beer—I did not hear him say anything else to her—he touched the prisoner with his hand under the chin, and told him not to be angry—I did not see that he did anything to annoy or provoke the prisoner—he appeared irritated and annoyed at his wife being told to fetch the Beer, and struck Lynch with his fist—Lynch hit him back with his fist in the face, and they got to fighting—they went out into the passage, and there was a fight there, which continued about five minutes—they then came into the house again—the prisoner went into the back room and Lynch into the front—in about five minutes the prisoner came in at the door of the front room, and went back to Lynch—he made a Blow at him with his left hand, and stabbed him with his right—I saw part of the knife as he came in at the door—he did not say anything before he struck Lynch—Lynch immediately called out that he was stabbed—Dwyer caught hold of the prisoner, and I went and fetched a constable.

Cross-examined. Q. Had you been drinking there with them? A. Not above half a pint of Beer—Lynch did not touch the prisoner's Beard, he merely touched his chin, and told him not to be cross, he did not wish to do any harm—it was done in a playful way, chaffing him—I heard no rough language used to the woman, no improper words—he was not roughly handled after the Blow was given with the knife; he was never touchedetched a constable, I did not see him touched after I came back—I saw that he had a cut, but I believe that was when they fell out in the court—there was Blood over his face; I did not see any mud on it.

JURY. Q. Did you see any liberties taken with the woman previous to the Blow being struck? A. No; she was never touched—she Began crying when they were fighting—she did not leave the room—I did not see her when the stab took place—I did not assist in Beating the prisoner afterwards in the street.

GEORGE CHEESEMAN . I live at 8, North-row, Chapel-street, Stockwell—I am a private in the Royal Surrey Militia—I was at the Magpie on this occasion—I did not see the prisoner there till the sta B occurred—I was sitting in the front room, the tap room, and while there heard a fall taking place in the back room, the kitchen—I did not go out—presently Lynch came into the room where I was, and stood by the side of the fireplace, and then the prisoner came in, and stabbed him—I did not hear a word said—he did not come rushing in, he walked in, and then stood and stabbed him—I did not hear the deceased say anything to him at all.

COURT. Q. How long had Lynch been in the room before the prisoner came in? A. About two minutes, or two or three minutes, I should think.

WILLIAM BURRIDGE (Policeman V. 188). I was called to the Magpie a little after 10 o'clock on that night—the deceased had then been removed—I found the prisoner standing in the tap-room—he appeared to have been roughly handled—there were evidences of it—I went and saw the wounded man lying on the sofa at Dr. Hassall's, and then returned and took the prisoner—I afterwards saw the dead body of Lynch—it was the same person that I had seen on that night.

Cross-examined. Q. Did you know the prisoner at all in the neighbour-hood? A. Yes—I have known him for about six years—he is a wellconducted, quiet, inoffensive man—the militia at the Magpie very often give us trouble.

JOHN COOPER GARMAN . I am a member of the College of Surgeons, and am acting with Dr. Hassall, at Richmond—on the night in question the deceased was brought to the surgery—he had an incised wound in the abdomen, from which the intestines were protruding—it was about an inch in length, and might have been inflicted by a knife—he was transferred to the care of Dr. Warwick, the surgeon of the regiment—I saw the dead body—it was that of the man who was brought to our surgery.

RICHARD ARCHER WARWICK , M.D. I am surgeon of the 1st Royal Surrey Militia—the deceased Lynch was under my care from the day the wound was inflicted till his death—it was an incised wound in the a abdomen—I did not see the protrusion of the intestines, as they had been replaced before I saw him, and a bandage placed over the wound—he died from inflammation of the Bowels, the result of the wound—I made a post mortem examination, and that is my judgment as to the cause of death—he died on the 7th of the following month.

Cross-examined. Q. Did he tell you before his death that he had struck the prisoner with a belt? A. At the time Sir Thomas Reeve took his depositions, he mentioned that he believed he had struck him with his Belt.

JOHN LYNCH . I saw my son after 29th April, while he was ill from a wound—his name was John Lynch. I afterwards saw his corpse.

ROBERT GRAHAM MCINTYRE (Police-inspector, V). I know nothing of the facts of this case—I was only formally bound over to prosecute.

Cross-examined. Q. Do you know the prisoner? A. I do—I have known him for some years—he has been residing in the neighbourhood off and on—I have always found him a remarkably quiet, inoffensive man—we occasionally have a deal of trouble with the Magpie.

GUILTY.—Recommended to mercy, the act having been committed under great provocation.

After the verdict, Leonard Batten, a greengrocer, of Brewer's-lane, Richmond, stated that before the act was committed the prisoner had been struck and beaten in the street by several of the militia, and Ann Cooper, servant at the Magpie, deposed to disgusting language used by some of the men towards herself and others, as well as to acts of violence towards the prisoner before the stabbing took place.

Confined Twelve Months.

Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-530
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty; Guilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment; Imprisonment > penal servitude

Related Material

530. JAMES LONG (48), and THOMAS WILKS (30) , Burglariously breaking and entering the dwelling house of Thomas Russell, and stealing therein 1 umbrella, 1 handkerchief, and 16 pieces of. foreign silver coin, value 30s. 5d., his property; and 1 coat and 1 cap of Charles Russell Wilks, having been before convicted; to which

LONG— PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Eighteen Months.

WILKS— PLEADED GUILTY .— Seven Years Penal Servitude.

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-531
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty; Guilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment; Imprisonment

Related Material

531. OWEN SULLIVAN (34), and GEORGE STEPHENS (17) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin; to which

SULLIVAN— PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months.

STEPHENS— PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Nine Months .

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-532
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

Related Material

532. ANN ROBERTS (19) , Feloniously uttering counterfeit coin; to which she

PLEADED GUILTY .*— Four Years' Penal Servitude.

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-533
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty; Guilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment; Imprisonment

Related Material

533. GEORGE WILLIAMS (45), and FANNY DOUGLAS (30) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin, having other counterfeit coin in their possession; to which

WILLIAMS— PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Eighteen Month.

DOUGLAS— PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Nine Months.

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-534
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

Related Material

534. WILLIAM JONES (20), was indicted for a like offence; to which he

PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Nine Months.

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-535
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

Related Material

535. CATHERINE STAGG, (28) , Unlawfully having counterfeit coin in her possession, with intent to utter it; to which she

PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Nine Montlis.

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-536
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

Related Material

536. MARIA PITCHER (17) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin; to which she

PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Fifteen Months.

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-537
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty; Not Guilty > no evidence
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

Related Material

537. SUSAN HALL (28), and WILLIAM MARKS (27) , Feloniously uttering counterfeit coin; to which

MARKS— PLEADED GUILTY .*— Four Years' Penal Servitude.

MR. CLERK, for the prosecution, stated that he had a certificate proving that the prisoners were man and wife, and therefore offered no evidence against Hall.


10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-538
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown; Guilty > unknown

Related Material

538. ANN HAYES (23), and HANNAH MOORE (18) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.

MESSRS. ORRIDGE and UNDERDOWN conducted the prosecution.

LYDIA LIECHTI . On 6th May, Moore came to our shop for a 10 1/2 d. teapot—she gave me a half-crown—I gave her change—she said she wanted a coffee-pot, but could not afford it then, and would come again another evening—I put the half-crown in the cash box—on the next day it was found to be bad—on 13th May Hayes came for small egg sancepan, which came to 4d—she gave me a half-crown—I put it between my teeth and detected that it was bad—it was very soft—I passed it over the counter to my husband and told him it was Bad.

FRANZ LIECHTI . I am a tin-plate worker, 180, Union-street, borough—on 7th May I found a half-crown in the cash-Box—my wife did not give it to me—the gas-collector was there, and said it was Bad—i put my soldering iron to it, and found that it was Bad—I was in the shop on 13th May, and saw Hayes there—she gave my wife a half-crown—my wife gave it to me—I examined it and found it was Bad—I asked Hayes where she got it—she said, "Is it a bad one?"—I said "Yes"—she said, "Well, it is very strange to me, a young woman just asked me outside if I could Buy a saucepan; it is very strange she should trust me, not knowing her, for I might have run away with it"—I asked her where the young woman was—she said, "If you come out you can see her"—I said, "Well, go on"—I kept the half-crown and she walked off, and I went over the other side of the way and followed her—I saw Moore going up to her, and at there same moment I met a constable and told him I wanted him—Hayes, just at the moment I walked up to her, Began to cry, and said, "You knew B—y well it was a bad one to send me with it"—Moore said, "Well, there is nothing to cry about"—she was very careless about it—I do not believer Moore saw me, but I believe Hates did—they were not near enough to know that I was within hearing—

I was just coming across the road—Hayes was watching me coming after her—I gave them in custody.

Hayes. I did not see you coming after me.

JOSEPH YARROW (Policeman, M 61). On 13th May, I received charge of the prisoners—I received from last witness this bad half-crown (produced)—I told the prisoners what they were charged with—Moore said, "Well, I did not know it was a bad half-crown, for I had not had it long in my possession"—Hayes did not speak—there was nothing found on either of them.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . This half-crown is bad.

Hayes's Defence. I met Moore going into the public-house; she asked me if I would have anything; she gave me the half-crown, and asked me to get a saucepan; I did not know it was bad; and Moore said she did not know it was bad; she had only just had it of a gentleman.


MOORE— GUILTY .*— Confined Nine Months.

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-539
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty; Not Guilty > unknown

Related Material

539. JAMES KELLY (17), and RICHAKD CHAPMAN (29) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin, having other counterfeit coin in their possession; to which

KELLY PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Nine Months.

MESSRS. ORRIDGE and UNDERDOWN conducted the Prosecution.

ELLEN WYMARK . I am 10 years old, and live at 3, Middle-lane, Blue Anchor-road, Bermondsey—on Thursday, 16th May, about a quarter-past 8 o'clock, I was at the top of Middle-lane—I saw Kelly—he said to me, "Will you go and get me a half-quartern of brandy? "—I said, "No"—he said he would give me a halfpenny—a little boy, Thomas Dowdy, was coming up—he asked him, and he went—Kelly gave him a shilling, in a piece of paper, and a bottle—I saw the shilling—I saw him wrap it up—Dowdy went into Mr. Dibbs', the Queen Victoria—Kelly went down by the ditch, where the black fence is, round the corner—Dowdy came up, and Kelly came forward to meet him, and stopped at the top of the lane—when he met him, Dowdy gave him the bottle and some money in change, and he gave Dowdy a halfpenny—after that I went into Mr. Dibbs' to get change, and told the landlady something—I came out, and Dray, the potman, came out with me—I pointed out Kelly—he was going further on.

ELIZABETH DIBBS . I am the wife of Solomon John Dibbs, who keeps the Queen Victoria public-house, Blue Anchor-road, Bermondsey—on 16th May the boy Dowdy came in and purchased half-a-quartern of rum—he gave me a bottle, and a shilling wrapped up in paper—I gave him 9d. change, and I put the shilling into the till—I had no other silver in the till—I remained in the shop—there was no one there but me—shortly afterwards Wymark came, and in consequence of what she said I looked in the till, and I found the shilling was bad—I afterwards gave it to the constable—this (produced) is the bottle that was brought, and that is the cork I put in it.

WILLIAM JAMES DRAY . I am potman at the Queen Victoria—on Thursday morning, 16th May, Wymark came to me, and in consequence of what she said, I went out of the house—she pointed Kelly out to me, in the distance—I followed him; and saw him meet the prisoner Chapman under an archly, in Church-street, Bermondsey—I there saw him take a bottle out of his pocket, and give it to Chapman, who drank something from it, and gave Kelly back the bottle—they then walked on together to Tooley-street, where I followed them, and then gave them in charge—it is some distance from the arches where I saw Kelly join Chapman, to Tooley-street, where the police stopped them.

COURT. Q. How far was it from Mr. Dibbs' to the arch where you saw Kelly meet Chapman? A. About a mile.

The COURT considered that there was no evidence to connect the prisoners.


10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-540
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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540. HENRY WOODRIDGE (33) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.

MESSRS. ORRIDGE and UNDERDOWN conducted the Prosecution.

ANN VICKERY . I am the wife of Robert Vickery, who keeps the Corner Pin beerhouse, Union-street, Southwark—I remember the prisoner and another man coming there at the latter end of April, or beginning of May—they had a pint of ale—the prisoner gave me a half-crown—I put it in the till and gave him change—he went away—my husband took it out of the till and said it was bad—there was no other half-crown in the till—on Monday, 3d June, I saw the prisoner again, alone—he asked for a glass of old ale, and gave me a half-crown—I kept it in my hand—I knew he was the man that had been before—my husband stood at the parlour door close by, and I passed it to him to look at—he asked me who I took it of, and I told him the man at the counter, and that he was the man who passed the bad one before—the prisoner heard me say that—he made no answer—my husband brought it to the counter, and told him it was a bad one—the policeman came, and he was given in custody.

Prisoner. Q. Was your husband there? A. Not when you brought the first half-crown—he was the last time—he was about an hour before he came in the first time—I did not notice the other man so much as you—he was rather taller than you.

MR. ORRIDGE. Q. Are you sure you had no other half-crown in the till before your husband came? A. No; so I could not give my husband any other.

ROBERT VICKERY . I keep the Corner Pin—I found a half-crown in my till about the latter end of April or the beginning of May—I gave it to my missus—she put it by—it was bad—she gave it to the officer—on Monday afternoon, 3d June, I was standing by my little bar parlour, about a yard from my missus and she passed me a bad half-crown—she asked me what it was, and I said, "It is a bad one; who did you take it of? "—she pointed to the prisoner, and said, "This is the party I took one of before"—I put it in my detector and bent it, and then I was going to show it to the prisoner and my missus took it and held it till a policeman came—I told the prisoner, it was a bad one—he made no answer—I gave him into custody—the missus gave the second half-crown to the constable—change was given for the second half-crown.

WILLIAM GREEN (Policeman, M 181). On the afternoon of 3d June I went into the prosecutor's house, and his wife gave me a half-crown, and another the next day—these (produced) are they—the prisoner said he had taken this half-crown in change of a half-sovereign, but did not know where—that was the first one that was given me; the one he passed on 3d June—I took him to the station, searched him, and found on him two good half crowns, and 2s. 5d.

Prisoner. I gave my right address. Witness. Yes; I went there and found it correct, and that you were a bootmaker.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . These half-crowns are both bad.

Prisoner's Defence. The woman says two men came in and gave a halfcrown; that the other man was taller than me; that is about six weeks ago. Do you think it possible she should know a man again after six weeks.

COURT to ROBERT VICKERY. Q. Were there several people round? A. Yes but he was close to me; there was just the bar between us—he was told half-a-dozen times over what he was charged with, and he did not make any answer.

GUILTY .— Confined Four Months.

10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-541
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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541. RICHARD KENDALL (44), Was indicted for a like offence.

MESSRS. ORRIDGE and UNDERDOWN conducted the Prosecution.

ELIZABETH HERBERT . I am the wife of James Herbert, dairyman, and live at 133, Union-street, Southwark—on Tuesday, 28th May, the prisoner came for half a pound of fresh butter—I gave it to him, and he gave me a five shilling piece—I looked at it, and while doing so he told me it was good enough—I thought it was bad—I told my husband—he was in the parlour—he came out, and I gave it to him—he found that it was bad. JAMES HERBERT. On 28th May I saw the prisoner in my shop—my wife ave me a crown piece—she said she thought it was bad; that the prisoner had just given it to her—I asked him where he had got it—he said from his employer, at Clerkenwell—I asked him where he lived himself and he said, "At Clerkenwell"—I gave him in custody—I told him it was bad—I gave it to the policeman.

HENRY HACKETT (Policman, A 509). I took the prisoner—I told him he was charged with passing a bad five shilling piece, and asked him where he got it—he said a man gave it to him whom he had been drinking with at a public-house, to go and get half a pound of butter—I asked him where the public-house was; he said he did not know—I asked him where the street was; he said he did not know; that he was a stranger about here—I searched him, but found nothing on him—he gave an address, 10, Shepherd-alley, Bunhill-row, St. Luke's—I made enquiry there, and could not find anything of him—the street is in St. Luke's Close, Clerkenwell—he was drunk when I took him in custody.

Prisoner. Q. You found my employer? A. Yes—he told me that you were a lazy character, and had not been at work there for six weeks, and that when you did work there it was not for more than a week at a time; he did not know where you were.

WILLIAM WEBSTER , This coin is bad—(The prisoner put in a written defence, stating that another man gave him the 5s. piece to pass, and that he did not know it was bad).


10th June 1861
Reference Numbert18610610-542
VerdictGuilty > unknown; Not Guilty > unknown

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542. WILLIAM BROWN (22), HARRIETT BROWN (19), and SOPHIA COLLINS (25) , breaking and entering the church of St. Mary, Newington, and stealing therein 1 cushion, 7 yards of velvet, and 6 yards of trimming, the property of Samuel Swonnen, and another, the churchwardens; 1 hood and scarf, the property of Frederick Freeman Statham, clerk; 1 hood and scarf, the property of Frederick William Holden, clerk; 1 pair of trousers, the property of Oliver Mitchell, clerk; and 1 coat, the property of Joseph Turner; to which

WILLIAM BROWN PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Eighteen Months.

MR. LILLEY conducted the Prosecution.

GEORGE HULL (Police-sergeant, P 32). I am stationed at Walworth—o the morning of 28th May, from information I received, I went to St. Peter's Church, Walworth about 10 o'clock, or between 9 and 10—I examined the hack entrance; that is at the east end of the church—I found the door had been attempted to be broken open in several places, and the door-post itself had nearly given way, just below the lock, and splintered it right up—the

lock was forced right away, so as to allow of the door coming open—the outer door was broken open; that is the other door—from that door we come into a passage, and from that you go to the vestry door—I found that tried in two places; it had also been forced—it appeared to have given very easily—the vestry was in great disorder—the iron safe had apparently been tried in two or three places—there were marks near the bottom end, showing that violence had been used upon it; and a small piece that matched with this instrument (produced) was broken into the door of the safe—I have mislaid the other piece—the safe remains safe still—I found this instrument in the lumber room over the vestry—St. Peter's district church is in the parish of St. Mary, Newington—I found four alms boxes broken open and the contents gone—I then went into the room above the vestry and found that in great disorder—there were several boxes in the room which appeared as though they had been opened and the contents strewed about the floor; that is where this instrument was found—there were a great number of lucifer matches that had been alight, strewed about the floor—there wag another room that had been attempted to be opened—I found the church generally in disorder—some velvet hangings that had been round the pulpit were gone—I did not see any velvet cushion—I had been in the church many times before—I cannot say that I had seen a velvet cushion to the pulpit during the time I had attended divine service there—I had seen hangings round the pulpit—I received information as to the articles that had been taken away—from the date I received information, the men of the station were employed on the look out.

THOMAS BENGOUGH (Policeman, M 82). From information I received, I went, at 11 o'clock on the morning of Tuesday, 4th June, to 12, Westcott-street, Kent-street, Southwark, accompanied by Burch, M 237—we went into Brown's room, the first floor front room, and there found William and Harriett Brown—there was a bed in the room—when I went in I observed a quantity of black silk lying on the top of the bed—I made search; I turned down the bed clothes and found this coat (produced) and a quantity of red damask, and some fringe with binding on it; and also a pair of trousers (produced)—the female, Brown, continued in the room while I found those things—I told 237 not to let any one out—having found those articles, I asked William Brown how he could account for the silk—he said he bought it out of Petticoat-lane—I asked if he knew the party he bought it or the shop—he said he did not—I asked him if he could account for the coat and trousers—he said that a man whom he did not know, left the coat at his house a few nights before; the trousers he said were his—nothing more passed between me and him—they were not undressed—the female was partly dressed—the bed was unmade—I told them they must go to the station with me—the female said, "Wait a moment till I put on my bonnet"—I observed this red velvet bonnet (produced)—I asked her where she had the velvet from; she said she bought it in Shore ditch—I asked her if she could tell me the shop, or from whom she bought it—she said she did not know—I asked her if she could account for the damask, which was made into a petticoat—she said she could not, and knew nothing at all about it—I then said they must come with me to the station—this binding was the only other article I found in that room—this is the silk which I found there.

COURT. Q. Were the two Brown's living together? A. Yes; they lived together and passed by the same name—there was one bed in the room—the man was having his breakfast—I did not know them before.

JOSEPH BURCH (Policeman, M 237). I accompanied the last witness to the house in Westcott-street, on the morning of 4th June—I went into the room on the first-floor—after we had taken the two prisoner in custody we tent back again into a room on the ground floor, and found Collins there—on searching the place I found these two towels and a white neck-handkerchief—I asked bow she came by them—she said the handkerchief she found to Bishopsgate-street, and the towels she had got to wash—I took her to the station, and when I got there she threw two pawnbroker's tickets under the form—I picked them up and asked her what she threw them away for—she at first denied ever having them in her possession—one was for a coat and the other for a quantity of silk—she afterwards said the coat belonged to her husband—I asked her how she could account for the silk—she refused to give any account of it—nothing further passed at the station—I left her at the station, and went back and searched her apartment, and found this portion of a red velvet bonnet and this white cloth.

COURT. Q. Do you know whether Coffin is married or not? A. I do not know anything about her.

JOSEPH BURNER . I am the sexton of St. Peter's Church, Walworth, and live in Peacock-terrace, Liverpool-street, in that neighbourhood—on the evening of Monday, 27th May I was engaged about the Church and church-yard till half-past 8 o'clock—after leaving work at that time I went as usual into the church and looked round to see that all was right—I then locked it on and returned home—I came away at a quarter to 9 exactly—the alms boxes were at the other end of the church—they were safe—on Tuesday morning my duty called me to the churchyard again—I am sure that on the evening of the 27th the door at the back of the church wad closed, locked—I am just as certain that it stood wide open—on the morning of the 28th, at a quarter to 10 o'clock—the vestry also was broken open, and in great con-fusion—among the articles I missed were the trimming of the pulpit, the hangings—this is a small portion that was left behind on the pulpit door—I have compared that piece of velvet with some portions of bonnets shewn to me by the policeman—they form part of the same, in my judgment, and likewise this binding—they exactly correspond, and the binding is exactly alike—there weir also some damask curtains missing—I did not miss them—this has been shown to me by the policeman—I never saw it in the church before—this alpaca coat belongs to a brother of mine—it was safe in the church on the night in question—I identify it by this white mark on the sleeve—here are also two silk hatbands, but I should not like positively to swear to them.

REV. OLIVER MITCHELL . I am assistant minister of St. Peter's—these damask curtains were mine, and these trousers—the trousers were in a box over the vestry—they were put there a few months ago—there is nothing else to which I can speak—neither of the hoods and scarves were mine.

FRANCIS FREEMAN STATHAM . I am incumbent of St. Peter's, Walworth—I identify this silk as one of the goods which was in the church—it does not belong to me, it belongs to one of the curates—I recognise it as part of a hood, from the materials—it retains the shape still; it is a hood of itself—it is a King's College hood—I recognise this also as part of an old scarf that we had; and there was also a portion of the other hood, which belongs to myself; this is a portion of another hood, a bachelor of Arts' hood, of Oxford—I do not see the other here now, but I have seen it—the ermine is taken from it—I recognise the velvets, especially by the binding; the gimp—when the police showed me the bonnets before, I recognised in one of them a particular

part of the cushion which was worn—any one can see that a part of this bonnet is made up of something that has been worn; where the hands have been placed in the pulpit—the pulpit cushion was missing as well as the hangings—there were also several other things missed—a looking-glass, and a picture, and two surplices have not been found—the feathers belonging to the cushion were found, at least some feathers were found—the picture was a framed picture of the vestry clerk—we cannot tell how much money was missing from the alms-boxes.

THOMAS MILLER . I am assistant to Mr. Barnet, a pawnbroker, carrying on business in the Great Dover-road—this silk (produced) was pledged at our establishment by the prisoner Collins on 30th May, in the name of Collins.

Collins. Yes, I did pledge it.

FRANCIS FREEMAN STATHAM (re-examined). This silk is a portion of our hatbands; I feel morally certain of it—I should not like to swear to it, it is dull and worn—there was a quantity of that sort lost—there is three or four yards of it.

JOSEPH BURCH (re-examined). I was present when the two Browns were brought into the station—the inspector on duty asked Harriett Brown where she was married, and she said, "Shoreditch Church "—she was then put back, and William Brown brought in.

COURT. Q. Did you hear either of them, when they were together, say anything about whether they were married or not? A. No—when we first took them to the station they said they were man and wife.

MR. LILLET. Q. Did they produce any paper? A. No.

Harriett Brown's Defence. The things were given to me by my husband, but I do not know how he came by them; he told me he bought them in Petticoat-lane.

Collins' Defence. I had those things given me for doing a bit of washing; Mrs. Brown was ill, and her husband out of work a long time, and he gave me those things that they might be of use to me.

At Collins' request the prisoner William Brown was examined.

WILLIAM BROWN . The silk that was stolen I gave to Collins, and she did not know where it came from—I told her I would give it to her as a present, on account of her doing a little bit of washing for my wife when she was bad.

COURT to THOMAS BENGOUGH. Q. Is it known whether Collins is married or un married? A. Her husband has absconded—they are looking for him now—she stated that he was her husband.



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