Old Bailey Proceedings.
28th January 1861
Reference Number: t18610128

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Old Bailey Proceedings front matter.
28th January 1861
Reference Numberf18610128

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Sessions Paper.








Short-hand Writers to the Court,








Law Publishers in the Queen's Most Excellent Majesty.




On the Queen's Commission of the Peace,



The City of London,





Held on Monday, January 28th, 1861, and following days.

BEFORE the Right Hon. WILLIAM CUBITT, Esq. M.P. Lord Mayor of the City of London; the Hon Sir Samuel Martin, Knt., one of the Barons of Her Majesty's Court of Exchequer; the Hon. Sir James Shaw Willes, Knt., one of the Justices of Her Majesty's Court of Common Pleas; Thomas Challis, Esq.; and David Salomons, Esq. M.P. Aldermen of the said City; Russell Gurney, Esq. Q.C. Recorder of the said City; Sir Henry Muggeridge, Knt.; Warren Stormes Hale, Esq.; Benjamin Samuel Phillips, Esq.; William Ferneley Allen, Esq.; John Joseph Mechi, Esq.; and Edward Conder, Esq.; Aldermen of the said City; Thomas Chambers, Esq. Common Serjeant of the said City; and Robert Malcolm Kerr, Esq. Judge of Sheriff's Court; Her Majesty's Justices of Oyer and Terminer and General Gaol Delivery of Newgate, holden for the said City, and Judges of the Central Criminal Court.









A star (*) denotes that prisoners have been previously in custody—two stars (**) that they have been more than once in custody—an obelisk (†) that they are known to be the associates of bad characters—the figures after the name in the indictment, denote the prisoner's age.


OLD COURT.—Monday, January 28th, 1861.

PRESENT—The Right Hon. the LORD MAYOR; Mr. Ald. SALOMONS, M.P.; Mr. RECORDER; and MR. Ald. CONDER.

Before Mr. Recorder.

28th January 1861
Reference Numbert18610128-160
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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160. JAMES THOMAS, alias Patrick Bowling (30), was indicted for burglariously breaking and entering the dwelling-house of the Baroness Talbot de Malahide, and stealing therein 1 necklace and other articles, value 2,000l. her property.

MESSRS. METCALFE and POLAND conducted the Prosecution.

SARAH IVES . I am housemaid to Lady Talbot de Malahide—she lives at 3, Lowndes-square, Chelsea—on 30th November, Lady Talbot went out about five minutes before 7, in the carriage—the footman went with her—after she had gone out, the butler went out, and after that I went upstairs to Lady Talbot's bedroom; that was about half-past 7—her ladyship's bedroom is the front room on the third floor—I found the room all in confusion—the two wardrobe doors were wide open each way, the drawer was half out, and the cover of the jewel-case lay outside the drawer; the pincushion thrown down on the floor, and the drawer at the bottom of the looking-glass half open—Lady Talbot's watch, which had been on the dressing-table, was gone—the jewel-case was also gone—I had not been in the room since 4 o'clock in the afternoon—the room was then all right and straight—when I went up at half-past 7, it was to light her ladyship's fire—while I was in the room I heard a door go upstairs, and I went upstairs to my own room which is the front attic—I there found the jewel-close, and the two the two room trays that held the diamonds, lying at each end of it, and what is termed a jemmy, lying by the side of it—I then went into the next room, which is a spare room, that is a front room also; and there I found the window open, the floor all wet, and an upper square of glass broken in the window, near the lock of the window—it was a very wet night, and was raining very hard at the time—I missed my silver watch from my room, from off the fire-place—I had seen it safe at 4 o'clock, when I was up in the room—I saw that the jewel-case had been broken open, by the trays being out—I took the iron thing into my hand that they opened it with—I went down and called the lady's-maid, and she came up stairs and examined the room.

Cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH.Q How many persons were there in the house at the time you went up into Lady Talbot's room? A. Only myself, the lady's-maid, and the cook—the lady's-maid and cook were downstairs, and I went up to light her ladyship's fire—I had been hardly a minute in Lady Talbot's room at the time I heard the door bang—I heard it as I was in the act of setting light to the fire, and then I went up to my own room.

MR. POLAND. Q. The police took possession of the jewel-case and is the jimmy, I suppose? A. Yes—this is the jemmy produced), and this jewel-case—this is the cover that was lying outside the drawer—the jewel-case I found upstairs, and these two trays that are now in it, were lying at each end of it.

ELIZA DE LACHERY . I am lady's-maid to Lady Talbot—I was called by last witness on 30th November, about half-past 7—I went upstairs—I found the wardrobe open, and everything in confusion—I had dressed Lady Talbot for the theatre—the things were all right at that time—I left the bedroom about a quarter-past 6—the watch that I missed was on the dressing-table at that time—the jewels were in my charge—I kept the key of them—a diamond necklace was missed on this occasion, two tiaras, two diamond bracelets, two diamond brooches, and a small diamond ornament for the neck; altogether they are valued at about 2,000l.—there were other smaller things besides these jewels, but not in the case—all that were in the case, were taken; the others were about the room, but they were not taken—they were of inferior value—they were thrown about—all the valuable jewellery that could be got at was taken, all the diamonds—those strewed about the room had been turned out of the boxes, but not removed—I lost a brooch of my own, it was taken off a pincushion—the house is in the parish of Chelsea—to the best of my belief, this diamond (looking at a ring produced) belonged to her ladyship's necklace, from the size and purity of it—all I can say is, that it exactly resembles one of those in the centre of the necklace—I had been in the habit of cleaning these jewels for fifteeen years, brushing them almost daily—I think this was about the centre stone in the necklace, because it was the largest.

Cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH. Q. How many stones were there in the Necklace? A. I cannot say—this stone was shown to me set in that ring as it is now—I speak from the size, purity, cut, and brilliancy—they were all good diamonds, all brilliants, and all well cut.

RALPH ROLLS (Police-inspector, B). On the night of 30th November, I went to 3, Lowndes-square, and examined the premises—I went up into the unoccupied room and the attic, and found the window open—a pane of glass was broken near the fastening, and there was some glass on the floor—a person could get from the roof into that room very easily—it was a very foggy misty night, small rain—it was rather windy at times, gusty—being so dark that night, I could not make a very good examination; but at daybreak, I went on to the roof of the house—there is a balustrade in front—I saw finger-marks on the balustrade in front of the houses 4 and 5, Lowndes-square, on the dirt that had become damp on the balustrades—No. 7 is under repair—there were ladders against it, reaching up to the roof—it is a flat roof—the marks were such as a person might make in passing along the roofs, and keeping himself steady—I was shown this jimmy and the dressing-case—I compared the marks on it—it appears to have been broken open with that jimmy—some days after this, I think the 3rd December, I received a hat from Meakins, a constable on the beat—I made some inquiries with reference to that—I went to 40, Cambridge-street, Hackney-road, on, as

near as I can recollect, the 4th, 5th or 6th December, I can't say the exact day—I endeavoured to find the prisoner there, but did not succeed—I know that some things in Cambridge-street were afterwards moved to Clarence-place—that was as near as I can judge, about 17th December—I endeavoured to find the prisoner at Clarence-place, but was not successful in that—the things were afterwards removed from Clarence-place to 27, Hyde-place, Hoxton—that removal was on 20th December—I succeeded in finding the prisoner at that place, on 26th December—I had tried before that, between the 20th and 26th—on 26th, I saw him come out of 27, Hyde-place—his wife was with him, and a man and woman—Sergeant Potter was with me—he took the prisoner into custody, and another sergeant took his wife into custody—when Potter took the prisoner, he said to him, "Patsy, I take you into custody for a large jewel robbery at 3, Lowndes-square, Pimlico"—I did not hear what reply he made—I and the sergeants returned into the house No. 27, taking the prisoner with us—we made a careful search of the house—whilst searching, the prisoner said to one of the sergeants, "I know what you are looking for now, you are looking for tools, but I have done away with them years ago"—Potter was keeping him in custody—before this occasion, I saw a man come out of No. 27, once or twice in the dusk of the evening, but could not be certain whether it was the prisoner or not—we did not find any jimmy or anything of the kind at this house—a great portion of the furniture was quite new—I found a quantity of flannel, unmade, and linen also not made up—I have not got it here—at the station I asked the prisoner for his address, and he gave it 27, Hyde-place, Hoxton—that was the house we had watched—he said he was a lapidary—in the cab on the way to the station, he said, "If you gentlemen had me to rights, I should have given you a warming before you had taken me"—he meant, I suppose, if we had got the case clear against him, that I understood to be his meaning—that was after we had searched the house, and found none of the property—the prisoner's wife was taken before the magistrate, and discharged—this is the hat that was found (produced)—I found two or three letters in the house No. 27—I have one addressed to Mr. Arnold, 27, Hyde-place—I have also got a rent-book of the house 40, Great Cambridge-street, Hackney-road.

Cross-examined. Q. The prisoner was very willing that you should search the house, was he not? A. He went back very willingly—I did not bear him express any willingness—I do not know that it was at his suggestion that the house was searched—I could not tell how long the furniture had been at the house; there were some dated receipts for furniture—they were given to the prisoner's solicitor—I read the receipts—I know very well the furniture we found in this house never left 40, Cambridge-street—it was not the furniture we had seen removed from Cambridge-street—I did not go into the house after I had seen the last removal, but we left some one watching there for some time afterwards—I cannot say whether nothing was left in the house after I saw the things leave—the new furniture was not part of what I saw removed.

MR. METCALFE. Q. When you ceased watching, did you leave persons watching? A. I stopped watching myself for a considerable time after the things were removed to Clarence-place—I don't think I left anybody there after that.

THOMAS POTTER (Police-sergeant, D 2). I received a communication from Sergeant Huddy, and I was shown a hat at the College-road police-station—I was not aware at the time that there had been any inquiries at the hatter's

—I saw that hat worn by the prisoner at Lewes, on 2d July last—I expressed that opinion before I knew what was inside the hat, and said whose hat it was—I was present afterwards at the hatter's when inquiries were made about it—I had the hat shown to me at the cattle-show about the 11th; the cattle-show finished on Friday, and I went on the Saturday—I think I saw the hat on the Saturday, and on the Monday or Tuesday following I went to the hatter's—I was not there at the time he turned out the lining—I have seen the prisoner on many occasions—I had seen him wear the hat previous to that, previous to the date I have mentioned; I have seen him at Clerkenwell, where he lived—it was through the hat that I knew where he was at Lewes—the prisoner was traced to Hyde-place, from Great Cambridge-street—I apprehended him there on 26th, on Boxing-day, about twenty minutes before 2, his brother, his wife, and a woman with a baby were with him—I saw them come out of No. 27—I said to the prisoner, "Patsy (that is the name by which I knew him), I want you, you must consider yourself in my custody for a jewel robbery at Lady Talbot's, at Brompton"—he said, "Very well, Mr. Potter, don't expose me here"—he then turned round and saw the four others, who were there in custody of other officers, and said, "Potter, you don't mean to take him into custody? he is innocent"—that was his brother-in-law, who was present—I said, "I shall leave that to the inspector"—he said, "I suppose you mean to search my place," or lodging, or something of that kind—I said, "Yes," and he asked to be present during the search—I took him back into the house and kept him in custody while Mr. Rolls and two other officers made a search—while they were searching a cupboard at the bottom of the stairs, the prisoner said, "I suppose you are looking for tools, but I have done with them years ago," and he said something about jewellery, but I could hardly catch the words—he said, "You knew, Potter, I should not have anything here"—on searching him I found three 5l. Bank of England notes, and five sovereigns, a gold watch, chain, and diamond ring, and other things, these are the notes (produced).

Cross-examined. Q. Had you been with Rolls two or three days previously, at that house or outside that house? A. Yes—I had not seen the prisoner going in and out—sometimes Rolls was there, sometimes I was—we were scarcely ever there both together, but we happened to be there together on this occasion when he came out—if I had seen him before I should have taken him—I have said before that the prisoner said, "You know, Potter, I should not have anything here"—I do not know that I gave it in evidence before—it is the truth—he repeated it more than once—I believe there was a reward of 300l. offered in this matter, for the recovery of the property—I never had this hat in my hands in my life before.

MR. METCALFE.Q. What is the reward for? A. For the recovery of the property—it is not recovered—I have several reasons for knowing the hat.

WILLIAM GEORGE BARNES . I am foreman to Mr. Doyle, a plumber—I superintended the alterations at 7, Lowndes-square—there were two ladders there, reaching to the roof, on the night of 30th November—three days after that, on 3rd December, I was in the back attic and my son drew my attention to a hat in the gutter—I told him to get out, he did so and picked it up and gave it to me—I gave it to the policeman on duty, Meakins—I had been into that room several times between 30th November and 3rd December, but had not noticed it—the window is high, and unless I went

close to the window I could not see it—it had a black hatband on it—if a person had gone up the ladder and had got into the front gutter where the balustrade is, he could not get over the roof so as to fetch a hat, supposing it bad blown off; it is 9 ft. 6in. from the roof to the gutter, and nearly perpendicular—a person could not get along the roof from the front part—the hat was not wet, only just damp—we had a board on the ladders every night, but an expert person could get up even with a board there—I believe this to be the hat.

CHARLES MEAKINS (Policeman). I received this hat from Barnes and gave it to the inspector, it is the same.

Cross-examined by MR. LEWIS. Q. What has become of the band that was on it? A. I did not see anything more than is here.

THOMAS FLEET . I am a hatter of 10, Bishopsgate-street—the prisoner is a customer of mine—he purchased a hat of me about the beginning of August, and left this hat (produced) to be repaired—a policeman afterwards brought it to me in December, and on taking the lining out, I found this ticket pasted on the body of the hat, between the lining and the hat, it is, "Mr. Thomas, 40, Great Cambridge-street, to be cleaned and trimmed all through, Paid"—I saw that ticket placed there in August, when the hat was left to be done up, and remember the prisoner as the person who brought it—this other hat (produced) is the one I sold him at the time this was left.

Cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH. Q. Are you quite sure about its being in the month of August? A. Not quite positive; I have endeavoured to discover the exact time, and my belief is that it was the beginning of August; I am certain that it was within ten days of August either way—I saw a third hat but gave no opinion of it—the one with the crape on is the one repaired by me—the lining had not the appearance of having been taken out when I examined it—it is customary to remove the paper before a hat is Bent home, but this was the neglect of my shopman, he left it by mistake.

MR. METCALFE.Q. Did you put this band on? A. I am not certain.

MR. METCALFE to. ROLLS. Q. Where was the second hat found, which has just been produced? A. In a cupboard at the prisoner's house, 27, Hyde-place—I also took away two other hats of this description, and one wide awake, and one cap.

HENRY THOMAS WILSON . I am in the service of Mr. Fleet—I know the prisoner—I saw him there about five months ago—he left a hat to be repaired and lined, and gave his name and address, James Thomas, 40, Great Cambridge-street—I wrote it down, and pasted the paper into the top of the bat—the hat was repaired and lined without that paper being taken out, and I took it to 40, Great Cambridge-street, Hackney-road, and left it there.

Cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH. Q. Was it a lodging-house? A. No, it did not look like one; it looked like a dwelling-house—I do not know whether I left it with a man, woman, or boy—it was paid for at the time it was left.

WILLIAM HUNT . I was at this time butler to Lady Talbot—I remember the jewels being stolen—I saw the prisoner either that morning or the day before—he brought a letter to No. 3, Lowndes-square, falsely directed, and inquired if such a person lived there—I said, "No"—I had the letter in my hand, and saw that it was a strange name which I had never heard before—I stood talking to him three minutes or rather more, and directed him to 3,

Lowndes-street, thinking it might be there—he took it away—he wore a common black hat.

Cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH. Q. Had you ever seen him before? A. No—I saw him next at the police-station—the inspector called at the house and told me that they had the man who committed the robbery, and next morning I saw him in one of the rooms at the station—I was not accompanied there by any one but her ladyship's two maids, but was introduced by one of the officers to a room with a hundred people in it of all classes and all dresses—I may have had a communication with one of the officers respecting the robbery—I was taken-to the room and asked to look round and see if I could identify anybody—I saw the prisoner at the far end of the room with a female by his side, who was taken in custody and afterwards discharged—I saw him at a glance and knew him in a moment—there was an opening made, up to the fire which was in the centre of the room, and I could see him sitting there without going up to him, and had no occasion to look further—I had not had the slightest description from the officers of the person who was in custody—the person I saw and identified was not dressed in the same way as the person who brought the letter—I will not say what he had on in the room, but I believe he had a cap on—I do not think there was any other person there among the mechanics and others, dressed like a private individual—I do not think this is the dress in which he was on that occasion—I recognised him by his features, and not by his dress at all—I cannot tell you whether he had that coat on, but I can give you a little further information; he had an altercation with one of the police-officers in the polio-court, and I identified his voice.

MR. METCALFE. Q. Was that the second examination? A. Yes.

JOHN WILLIAMBON . I live at 32, Dover-road, and am the landlord of 40, Great Cambridge-street, Hackney-road—about the middle of July I let that house to the prisoner at 22l. a year, or 1l. 16s. 8d. per month—it was the half-quarter before Michaelmas—I saw the prisoner on the first Monday in December—he left the month's rent up to Christmas at home for me, with notice that he was going to leave at Christmas—that was the last I saw of him; I think it was 3d December.

Cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH. Q. Had he a right to leave at any time by giving a week's notice? A. Yes; he might have left at any time and put a bill up—this is my rent-book (produced), it is in my writing—the house was taken in the name of Thomas; he paid the rent regularly.

EDWARD WEST WILSON . I am a cashier in the Lothbury department of the London and Westminster Bank—on 24th December I paid four 5l. notes and 5l. in gold to the prisoner, to the account of James Arnold—these notes (produced) are three of them—100l. in gold had been deposited to the account of James Arnold, and the prisoner signed this deposit-note (produced) that day—it came into the Bank on the payment of 50l. and afterwards another note was given for the remaining 50l.—on 24th December 25l. was drawn out, these four notes were given out at that time and another note was given for 25l. as we always issue a fresh deposit-note—the last deposit-note was presented by Mr. Breed's clerk, the prisoner's attorney, on 29th December—the prisoner is the person who deposited the money in the name of James Arnold, 40, Cambridge-street.

ALEXANDER HUDDY (Policeman, B 2). On the evening of 30th November, about 5 o'clock, I was in plain clothes at Knightsbridge, and saw the prisoner at the end of William-street, about 150 yards from 3, Lowndessquare, standing conversing with another man—I waited about two minutes

and left them there, still talking—he had on a brown sleeve coat and a black hat, like one of these—I know him by sight, and had seen him in that neighbourhood before, about 300 or 400 yards from there, and three weeks before that I met him in Grosvenor-place.

Cross-examined. Q. When did you hear of the robbery? A. At 9 or 10 o'clock that night—I told Sergeant Potter at the cattle-show that I had seen two men standing there, that I knew one by sight, and took the other to be a butler—I was at the Court on the first examination but was not called—I saw the prisoner in the dock—I said at the time he was apprehended, and before he was taken, that he was the man I had seen on 30th November, and I said at the Mansion-house, "That is the man, I saw him standing in Alfred-street, near Enightsbridge that evening"—I was not called on the first or second examination.

WILLIAM HENRY EWER . I am a cab-driver—I was on the stand in Pont-street on the evening of 30th November, which is a very short street, into Cadogan-plaoe, and not a wonderful way from 3, Lowndes-square—three men hired my cab—one of them was muffled up about the head, he had no hat on—I was ordered to drive them to the Great Northern—one of them got out in the Haymarket and went into a hatter's shop—I then drove them as far as Bedford-place, where they got out and told me that there was a fare waiting on the other side of the street, which turned out to be incorrect—I saw no more of them.

Cross-examined. Q. You seem to be very certain that it was 30th November? A. I am—I cannot say when I was first asked about this—the waterman spoke to me—I know it was on 30th November because I recollect that the morning afterwards, about 7 or half-past, there was a report that there had been a robbery committed in Lowndes-square—the waterman's name is Yeatman, to the best of my knowledge.

JOHN YEATMAN . I am the attendant at the cab-stand in Pont-street—on 1st December I heard of the robbery at Lady Talbot's—on the night before that I was on the stand, and saw three down Cadogan-place from Lowndes-square—one of them had no hat, but his head was tied round with a wrapper—the other two had hats—one of them ordered Ewer to drive them to the Great Northern Railway, and they drove away.

Cross-examined. Q. Was it a very dark night? A. Yes—I cannot say whether the man without a hat was a white or a black man—he had no cap on—I could see part of his hair, or it might have been a rough cap.

MR. METCALFE.Q. To the best of your belief he had no hat and no cap on? A. I do not believe he had; if he had a cap it was something very hairy, and not a hat like this.

ABRAHAM CORBETT . I am a shoemaker, of 38, Great Cambridge-street, Hackney-road—the prisoner lived at No. 40, immediately opposite me—on 30th November, just before 9 in the evening, he came up to his door and knocked, and a cabman who had brought his mistress there about ten minutes or a quarter of an hour previously, spoke to him—he instantly went to the window, unfastened it or broke the glass, and got in, she having got in the same way previously—the prisoner had on a kind of billy cap, like this—I have seen him wear different styles of hats and caps, some of this description (The wide-awake) several times.

Cross-examined by MR. LEWIS. Q. I believe you have never spoken to the prisoner in your life? A. Never—I should say it was a fortnight or three weeks before I made any communication to the police—I had seen an account of the robbery in the newspapers—I did not know till the other day that there

was a reward of 300l. offered—it did not specify that in the papers—the way I was found out was I was talking to nay neighbour about the robbery, and about Thomas being arrested, and I said that it was a peculiar thing his getting through the window and his wife breaking the window—I did not see an account of the robbery on 1st or 2d December, I never saw it until I read of the prisoner being arrested—my house is opposite.

COURT. Q. Do I understand you that his wife had got in through the window just in the same way just before? A. Yes; that attracted my attention—I was standing at my own door and I saw her break the glass, undo the window and shutters and get in, and he in the same way.

ISAAC GLEED . I am foreman to Messrs. Alton and Walker, pawnbrokers, 7 and 8, London-terrace, Hackney-road—I have known the prisoner for about twelve months—I don't remember how shortly before 30th November he himself had pledged anything with us; his servant did on 28th November last—we had things of his in pledge at that time—on 1st December they were taken out, some by him and some by another party, things which I have known to be pledged, to the amount of 25l. 5s.—the money was paid on 1st December by the prisoner and some one else, not by him altogether—I can't tell what amount he paid himself—the tickets are all mixed together on files—this diamond ring is our setting—the stone was left by the prisoner to be set on 22d December—I had never seen it before that day—the ring was made to fit him—the value of the stone is about 15l.—we should value it at that in the trade—we would advance that on it—it is worth 20l. at least—on 3d December the prisoner ordered two feather beds, bolsters, and four pillows, 10l. was the price they were to be—5l. was paid at the time of ordering and the other 5l. on 18th December, and on 21st December he bought a set of china and a shade of fruit under a glass shade—he paid 2l. for the set of china, and I think 1l. 15s. or 1l. 17s. for the fruit, and 22d December he bought ten yards of carpeting at 1l. 7s. 6d.—the total amount is 15l. 4s. 6d.

Cross-examined by MR. LEWIS. Q. A portion of the things, you say, were redeemed by the prisoner, whether he had sold the duplicates or not, you can't say? A. No—he has been in the habit of pledging and redeeming at our shop for some time—he had purchased one diamond ring in the first part of August—I do not think he has purchased any other jewellery at our place—I do not recollect anything else—I know him well as a customer.

COURT. Q. What were the sort of things that were redeemed on 1st August? A. Mr. Wontner has a list of them.

JURY. Q. What was the cost of the diamond ring on 1st August? A. 5l. 10s.—a gold guard key and pencil case 5l.—a diamond ring, gold watch, a diamond ring, and a diamond ring again for 5l.—they were pledged between March and November.

THOMAS MAVETY (Policeman, N 43). I went with the inspector when the prisoner was taken in custody at 27, Hyde-place—I saw the rent-book found—it is for 40, Great Cambridge-street, and in the name of Thomas—when I found the book the prisoner said, "Mavety, you need not look at that it only refers to where I have previously lived"—I said, "I suppose you are not living here in the same name?"—he said, "Not likely"—I saw a letter with the name of Arnold, 27, Hyde-place on it—while searching a cupboard the prisoner said, "You are not looking for jewels; you are looking for tools."

Cross-examined by MR. LEWIS. Q. At the time he made that observation he knew what the charge was, did he not? A. Oh, yes.


The prisoner was further charged with having been before convicted of housebreaking, at this Court, in 1858; when he was sentenced to four years' penal servitude; the prisoner

PLEADED GUILTY** to this part of the charge.— Ten Years' Penal Servitude.

William Coombes, a police officer, stated that the prisoner had been thirteen times in custody.

28th January 1861
Reference Numbert18610128-161
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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161. THOMAS HOLLOWAY (38), and SAMUEL COLE(24), were indicted for unlawfully conspiring to obtain 1s. of Robert Protheroe by false pretences.

MR. BEST conducted the Prosecution.

ROBERT PROTHEROE . I keep the Adam and Eve public-house in York-street, Westminster-road—on 18th January last, about a quarter to 4 in the afternoon, the two prisoners came to my bar—they called for 1 1/2 d. worth of gin and 1 1/2 d. worth of peppermint, which they were supplied with by my son; I was then in the adjoining bar—as soon as my son had served them I came into the front bar—I saw that Holloway had something in his right hand by way of payment, and I stepped forward to take the money—he then withdrew his right hand and put out his left hand with a half-sovereign and asked for change—that strengthened my suspicion that something wrong was intended, and I went to my till and was very particular in giving them change—I put down a crown-piece, a half-crown, two shillings, and three pence, making 9s. 9d.—he had previously given me the half-sovereign—I placed the change on the counter before them—they did not seem inclined to take it up—I waited about half a minute—I never lost sight of the change for a moment, but I turned myself round partly, so, with my eye still fixed on the change, and I saw Holloway immediately snatch up 1s. and pass it about two inches below the counter, and the left band of Holloway met the right hand of Cole simultaneously, as it were, as if by magic—I immediately turned round, and Holloway said, "Governor, you have made a mistake, there is 1s. short here"—I said, "I see there is only 8s. 9d. there now, but I put down 9s. 9d."—"Oh, no, you have not," he said, "I have not touched it"—I said, "I know better, I saw you take 1s. and pass it to that man"—he said, "No I have not"—I said, "Have you it in your hand, then?"—he paid, "No," opening both hands—I then said to Cole, "You have it in that hand"—without opening his hand he put his hand into his pocket; he would not show me his hand; and brought up a quantity of silver, and said, "I have plenty of money of my own"—I said, "One of those shillings are mine, and I shall either charge you with stealing that 1s. or endeavouring to obtain one from me by false pretences"—they said, "That is just the thing, governor, that will suit us; you dare give us in charge, we will have your by house from over your head, if you dare charge us; and set Mr. Lewis on to you; we will have the gold watch out of your pocket: you dare do anything to us"—I said I should send for a policeman, and I sent my little boy—I said, "As you have no particular objection to the presence of a policeman, perhaps you will wait"—I called my potman and went round the bar to await the arrival of the policeman—they waited for about half a minute and then said, "We will not wait for any policeman, we will summons you, that is the best way;" and they threw me violently on one side and my man on the other, and made their escape through the door—I sent my man in pursuit of them—a policeman came within half a minute and we pursued the prisoners for about 150 yards; as soon as they saw we were in pursuit of them they stopped.

Holloway. Q. How long was the money on the counter before I picked it

up? A. Half a minute—you said, "There is not sufficient change here"—that was after you had picked up the shilling—I asked you to open your left hand with which I had seen you take the shilling, and you opened the other—I then said to Cole, "Let me see that right hand of your's," and he said, "Oh, I have got plenty of money of my own," and he pulled out three or four shillings and some half crowns.

Cole. Q. Did not you say before the Magistrate, that you did not see Holloway take the shilling? A. No—I said it was impossible to see you through your hand—I saw your hands come in contact.

THOMAS WATERMAN (Policeman, A 274). The prosecutor gave the prisoners into my custody for attempting to defraud him of a shilling—they said, "If you do, it will be the worst thing you ever did"—they repeated that several times.

Holloway's Defence. I know that he only put down 8s. 9d. on the counter.

Cole's Defence. I met this man in York-street, Westminster, I had not seen him for a month or two; he asked me to have a glass; I was talking to him and did not notice what he put down. I heard a dispute; he said, "Landlord, you have not given me sufficient change;" I looked and said, there was only 8s. 9d. there; the landlord said, "You are b----y scoundrels"—I said, "That is not a fit way to speak; don't have any; disturbance, you have got another remedy for it." He flew out of the bar and said we should not go out, but he would give us in charge. We went out, but as soon as we saw the policeman we stopped.



GUILTY .— confined Nine Months.

28th January 1861
Reference Numbert18610128-162
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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162. WILLIAM DAVIS (19) , Robbery, with violence, on Ann Maria Letitia Pulham, and stealing a pair of goloshes and other goods, her property.

MR. H. GIFFARD conducted the Prosecution.

ANN MARIA LETITIA PULHAM . I am single, and live at 18, De Beauvoirterrace, De Beauvoir-town, and am a telegraphic clerk—about 6 o'clock on the evening of the 12th January I was walking in Shoreditch—it was rather dark—I was attacked by three persons—the prisoner was among them—they caught hold of my bag, and pulled me a little way up a court, and when the prisoner found I did not leave hold of my bag he struck me on the cheek—I then let go of the bag and went into Mr. Woolf's, the linendrapere—Mr. Woolf sent for a constable, who went and found the prisoner in a cellar—he was brought back—in my bag that was taken there was a pocket-handkerchief, a comb, a pair of goloshes, and a box of powder, I think—I was hurt by the blow that I received—I felt it about two days—I am sure it was the prisoner that struck me—when he caught hold of the bag he said, "That is it," and he pulled it away—I heard him speak afterwards when he was brought back—this (produced) is my bag.

Cross-examined by MR. COOPER. Q. You say it was rather dark? A. Yes—I had my veil down—this was at the corner of Eyre's-alley—it was all done in the course of half a minute—I was very much alarmed and frightened—I said at first that I knew the man by his voice, and should know him again by his voice—when he came back he was told to speak, and then I said I knew the voice.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. While struggling for the bag, although it was dart, did you see the prisoner's face? A. No—I can hardly tell whether the person was about the prisoner's height and size; it was in the dark; of course I was confused.

WILLIAM WOOLF . I am a draper, of 80, High-street, Shoreditch—about 6 o'clock on the night of the 12th I was standing at my shop door—I saw the last witness coming—I saw the prisoner and two others with him—they were standing at the end of Eyre's-alley—directly the last witness came opposite the court, two pushed her into the court, and the prisoner caught hold of her bag—he succeeded In getting it from her—the other two ran away, and he rushed up the court—I sent one of my assistants for the police, who went up the court and brought the prisoner back—I am quite sure he is the man.

Cross-examined. Q. Had you known him before? A. No; I was standing about as far from him as I am from you—I saw him before they got into the court—I saw him standing at the entrance of the court—I noticed them because I knew one of them to be a well-known thief—I was at my shop-door waiting for customers—I had newer seen the prisoner before.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. How long were they there? A. Three or four minutes.

ADAM LANGLEY (Policeman, H 93). About 6 o'clock on the night of the 12th, in consequence of information I received, I went to an empty house in Eyre's-court—I found the prisoner there in the water-closet—I asked him to get up, and there I found the bag that had been stolen from the prosecutrix, under him, in the pan of the water-closet—this is the bag—I saw it opened—it contained a piece of calico, a pencil, a comb, a knife, and a pair of goloshes; 7 1/2 d. was. missing—I took the prisoner in custody—he said it was not he.

COURT to MR. WOOLF. Q. How long after you had seen the prosecutrix attacked, was it that the prisoner was brought back? A. About ten minutes—there is a door at the end of the court; I stood there and had the door shut so that he could not come out again.

GUILTY .* †— Confined Twelve Months.

28th January 1861
Reference Numbert18610128-163
VerdictGuilty > with recommendation

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163. JOHN MAY HOOK (38) , Stealing 4 cwt. of lead, value 4l., the property of Arthur Willock and another.

MR. LILLEY conducted the Prosecution.

WILLIAM WARDELL . I live at 2, Red-lion-street, Wapping, and am apprentice to my father, a lighterman—we work for Willock and Son—on the morning of 19th January, I was on the river in a barge laden with lead, at Fresh Wharf, about two hundred yards from the Tower—about 7 o'clock I heard a noise with the last pig that was lifted on the gunwale—I was in the cabin—I came on deck and saw a boat shoving away—the prisoner was in the boat—there were four pigs of lead in the boat—there was one pig on deck, near the gunwale, on my barge—when I first saw the boat in which the prisoner was, it was about four yards off alongside—I hallooed out for the police directly—I found no police came so I stood on the gunwale of the barge for about two minutes while he was rowing off—I saw him throw the first pig overboard against the stern of the Crocodile steam-boat—that was while I was standing on the gunwale of the barge—after that I ran through the wharf and took a sculler from Billingsgate, near the Custom House, and rowed after him—he rowed towards over the water, and then he turned back again when he saw me coming, and rowed towards Brewer's Quay, and when we got to him there was none of the lead in the boat—I had lost sight of him from one end of the steam-boat to the other—that was the only time I lost sight of him, when I went round to get the sculler—he was rowing past the steamboat then—when I overtook him at Brewer's Quay he was going on board a coal barge there to get a sweep of coals, and I told him I was going to give

him in charge for stealing the lead—he said, "I had made a mistake"—he is the man—I saw him alongside of my employers' barge—afterwards, at the police-station, I was shown by the inspector of the Thames police two pigs of lead that were picked up—it was the same lead that had been in my masters' barge.

Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. What was it he said when you told him you charged him with stealing some lead? A. He said I was mistaken—I slept on the barge that night; I was put in charge to watch her—it was laden with a great quantity of lead, nothing else—the weight of a pig is about 1 cwt. some of them run 114lbs.—there was not a soul on board the barge but myself, I was there all night alone; I was in the cabin—there was no bed there; I was not asleep—I was just lying down—I was disturbed by the noise and came up and saw the prisoner in a boat about three or four yards from the barge; he was not so far as six yards—it was not dark, it was just break of day, 7 o'clock—it was a clear morning, quite bright—it was last Saturday week, in the middle of the frost—I cannot tell that the boat was the man's own—it was the first time I ever saw him—I know there are men who go about to sweep barges for which they get the sweepings—I saw him throw one of the pigs into the water—I did not shout to him—I only hallooed out for police—the other pigs were then in the bottom of his boat—the pig went down with a great plash, in the water—it made a great noise—I heard and saw it—I followed the prisoner and never lost sight of him, except from one end of the steamer to the other—I kept turning round as I was rowing—he did not turn to meet me when he saw I was following him—he turned to row into Brewer's Quay, and we went there to him—the sculler that I took was with me—when we got to the boat there were no pigs of lead in it—there were four hundred and forty-three pigs in the barge that night—they were put on board on Friday—I counted them and loaded them; nobody assisted me—I loaded them myself; I took them from a schooner—I do not know whose schooner it was—she has gone away and the people with her.

MR. LILLEY. Q. Was there light enough to see who was in the boat? A. Yes; and it was light enough to see that there were pigs of lead in the boat—I can lift a pig of lead—I could have lifted one off the barge into the boat alongside—I gave the prisoner into the custody of the Thames police-inspector.

COURT. Q. You say you put four hundred and forty-three on board, were there any missing afterwards? A. Yes; four—I went back and counted them after I had given the prisoner in charge, one of my men was left in charge—nobody was with me counting them—the lead I pointed out to Inspector For far was the lead that had come off my barge.

WILLIAM HENRY FORFAR (Thames police-inspector). On Saturday morning, 19th January, I received charge of the prisoner from the last witness—he was alongside of a coal barge at Brewer's Quay—the charge was mentioned to him, he said he knew nothing at all about it—I conveyed him to the station—I went to the barge on the following Monday afternoon—the barge was then lying at Bagent's, she had delivered her cargo, and it was Iying on the wharf—it was pointed out to me by the last witness—I had previously received some information on the Monday afternoon from a man named Harris, and had at the same time obtained possession of two pigs of lead—I produce one of them to-day—those pigs were, shown to Wardell at the station—the prisoner was not present then—from the spot Harris described to me, to the Tower, is about from a hundred to a hundred and

fifty yards—I compared the lead with the other pigs that had been on board the barge—the names and the stamp mark are exactly the same.

Cross-examined. Q. Was it Wardell who gave him into your charge? A. Yes; he said, "I shall give this man into your charge for stealing four pigs of lead out of a barge I was watching"—I did not go on board the barge till the Monday—the prisoner said he knew nothing about it—a great number of things are fished up from the river at times—they tumble out of the boats—a great number of persons are on the look out for it, and get their living by it—there is no one here who saw the pigs counted except Wardell—I have known the prisoner many years—he works about there—he is what they call a bankside fisherman, or dredgerman, that sweeps barges.

GEORGE THOMAS HARRIS . I am a labourer of 2, Cavendish-street, Paradise-street, Lambeth—on Monday, 21st January, I was in a boat with a man named Bagent, on the Thames, near the Tower; I fished up two pieces of lead—that is one of them—I had them in my boat—the police-inspector took them from me—I fished them up outside the Crocodile.

Cross-examined. Q. What did you fish them up with? A. With a graveline—I was going to take them ashore, and take them home to find the owner.

The prisoner received a good character.

GUILTY .—Recommended to mercy by the Jury on account of his previous good character.— Confined Three Months.

28th January 1861
Reference Numbert18610128-164
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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164. WILLIAM SIMPSON(60) , Stealing a purse, value 6d., 3 sixpenny pieces, and 1 threepenny piece, of Ann Daley, from her person, having been before convicted; to which he

PLEADED GUILTY . **— Four Years' Penal Servitude.

NEW COURT.—Monday, January 28th, 1861.


Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

28th January 1861
Reference Numbert18610128-165
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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165. WILLIAM EWINS(28) , Maliciously wounding John New, a police-constable, and inflicting upon him grievous bodily harm.

MESSRS. CLERK and BEASEY conducted the Prosecution.

JOHN WILTSHIRE (Policeman, D 113). On 1st September, about a quarter to 6 in the evening, I was on duty in the Harrow-road, and was called into the Running Horse public-house—I found the prisoner there drunk and riotous—I ordered him to go quietly out of the house—he said he should not go out—he continued very violent—I then called New, a police constable who was outside—he came in—police constable Keenan and another constable came in in the meantime—Wore New came in, Keenan and I had hold of the prisoner—I had hold of his left hand with my right—he had thrown himself on the ground, and was kicking very violently—I heard New say, "He has kicked me in the private parts"—he appeared very ill, very pale—he had not got hold of the prisoner—he was behind me—Keenan was on my left, on the other side of the prisoner, assisting in getting him out—we succeeded in getting him out into the street with the assistance of Waterman—he resisted very much—we had to carry him the greatest part of the way to the station—he kicked very violently in the house, and also outside—on the road to the station he said

he would go quietly—we let him go, and he made a kick at me, and his foot came in contact with the lamp-post—we got him to the station.

Cross-examined by MR. ORRIDGE. Q. When you took hold of the Prisoner's arm was New standing behind him? A. Yes, behind me; towards the prisoner's feet; opposite him; facing him—the prisoner threw himself down—Keenan fell on him, no one else—New was standing when he called out that he was kicked—I did not see the kick; it was impossible for me to see it—New was behind me—the prisoner's feet were behind me—I could only see that he was kicking—I could not see whether New had taken hold of him at all—the prisoner was drunk—I do not know why his head is bound up—he was not like that then—he received no injuries that I know of—he made no complaint then, nor at the station—I did not hear him say a word to New—there were about four persons present at the commencement; perhaps there might have been one hundred and fifty at the last—the struggle lasted perhaps five minutes—at first there were four persons in front of the bar; I cannot say as to afterwards, the people kept crowding in—I did not see anything of a general fight—no one tried to get the prisoner from me—I saw no attempt at getting him away—I did not see any act of violence on the part of any one else—the prisoner was the only person struggling.

MR. CLERK. Q. Was it after New was kicked, that a great many came in? A. Yes—Keenan fell on his side at the same time that he commenced kicking—it was the potman that brought me to the house.

COURT. Q. Did you hear the prisoner say anything when he kicked, just before New cried out? A. No.

JOHN NEW . I was a police-constable—I am 28 years old—on 1st September I was called by Wiltshire to the Running Horse public-house, Harrow-road, about half past 6 in the evening—Wiltshire was in the house before I went in—when I went in I saw the prisoner there—he had no coat on, his shirt sleeves were turned up—he was standing by the bar—Wiltshire asked him to go out, and he would not go—Wiltshire took him by the hand, and he immediately threw himself on his back—while he was lying on his back Wiltshire was at his head, and the other constable was at his head, with his back towards me—the prisoner violently kicked me in the testicles, and I fell back against the form—I had not taken hold of him before he kicked me—he did not say anything or call out anything before he kicked me—he could see me very well where I was standing at the time he kicked me—his head was laid against the bar, and his heels against a little door that lead into the parlour or tap room—I was towards his feet—when he kicked me his feet were close to my heels, and as he lay on his back he threw his feet up—he could see me at the time he kicked me—I have done no duty from that day to this—I have been under the care of the surgeon—I was in the hospital six weeks—other constables came and took the prisoner into custody, and I was assisted home.

COURT. Q. Were Keenan and Wiltshire nearer the prisoner's head than you were? A. Yes, up against his head—they were stooping over him—he might have seen through their arms—I could see his head over their arms, and he could see my head over their arms.

JAMES KEENAN (Policeman, D 327). I was called in to the Running Horse on the evening of 1st September and found the prisoner there—New and Wiltshire were there when I got in—the prisoner was then standing in the bar in a fighting attitude, and the landlord requested him to go out—he refused—his conduct was very violent—he was in his shirt sleeves—I

said it was better for him to go out, than to get himself into trouble—he said he would see me b----d first—I caught hold of him; he and I fell on the floor—that was after New came—it was in my attempt to put the prisoner out—he got up and fell again in front of the bar, and I fell on the top of him—it was when he fell the second time that Wiltshire got hold of his left hand—the prisoner threw himself on his back—his head was between me and Wiltshire—I fell en him—I got up and kept hold of his right hand—he was kicking about very violently then—New was in the rear of him, and the prisoner, kicking, kicked me in the left knee—I did not see him do anything to New—after we bad got outside the door, I heard New say he was kicked—we had the prisoner in custody at that time—the prisoner did not say anything to that.

COURT. Q. Did you hear him say anything before New complained that he was kicked? A. No.

Cross-examined. Q. How many were there of you engaged in taking him? A. There were New, Wiltshire, myself, and two others; five of us—none were down on him except me—by the prisoner falling he pulled me down, and I was compelled to fall on him—he was on his back and kicking, when I fell on him—I had not hold of his throat—I had hold of his right arm and I fell down on him—I lay down on his breast for half a moment and then got up again—it was not while I was lying on his breast, that he kicked New—the other two policemen were keeping the mob back more than anything else—there was great confusion—it is not a very large place—the prisoner was drunk, not very wild drunk.

MR. CLERK. Q. At the time when you and Wiltshire had hold of him, was there any other constable in the house besides New? A. There was a constable named Mills—I was down—on the prisoner for a moment—I could not say whether I had got up again before he kicked New—I did not witness the assault—I did not hear New cry out at that time, that he was kicked; not till after we got the prisoner outside—the name of the other constable was Waterman.

HENRY ANCELL . I am surgeon to the D division—on 1st September, in the evening, I was called upon to see the constable New—I found that he had an injury of the testicles, and a general shake to the system, and it subsequently appeared that he had an injury to the spine.

Q. Did he appear to have been a strong man before this injury was inflicted? A. There was nothing to indicate the contrary—I believe he was in perfect health when the injury was inflicted—his life was for some time in danger from this injury, and I cannot say at present that it is wholly out of danger—he is not likely ever to be able again to do duty as a policeman—the injury to the spine is likely to be more or less permanent—that was inflicted by the fall against the bench or form—there is no doubt that the whole injury is fairly accounted for by the statement made of what occurred at the moment—a mil backwards against a form or bench would have produced that.

GUILTY Confined Nine Months.

28th January 1861
Reference Numbert18610128-166
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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166. JOHN GORMAN(20) , Robbery (with a man unknown) upon Joseph Hopkins, and stealing from his person, 1 watch and chain, value 7l. 5s. 1 purse, value 6d and 14s. in money, his property.

MR. LAWRENCE conducted the Protecution.

JOSEPH HOPKINS . I am a valet, and lodge at 6, Adam-street, Manchester-square—on the night of the 10th February, I had been at the

Serpentine, and then went to a public-house in Oxford-street; it was them after 12 o'clock—the bar was full of people, and the prisoner was among them with another man and a female—he said that he had been on the Serpentine selling torches, and having lost 2 1/2 d. by them, could not afford to have any beer, and would I give him a pint—I did so, and had some grog myself—I went out, and a friend of mine, Mr. Morgan, left me at the corner of Duke-street—the prisoner came up to me at the corner of Adam-street, and asked me for a light—I said that I had not a light in my pocket but was going in and would get him a light—I went in, went up to my own room, got a light, and as I came down with it, they came up the stairs—I asked them how they dared to come there—the woman was not there, only the prisoner and the other man—they said, "We will go away if you will give us a light, we will go down stairs directly"—the light was then knocked out, and the prisoner seized me tightly by the throat, so that I could not call out, or else there were plenty of people in the house that would have heard me—I felt my watch pulled away, and the chain broken, and my purse also, which I had seen safe in the public-house—it contained a half-crown, three florins, four shillings, and two sixpences—I held the other man a long time, as I thought he had got my watch—the prisoner had left go of my pocket, and got away—I then hallooed out, and the other man threw me down on the pavement—I was still hanging when he slipped out of his jacket, and they both ran away together—I gave information of the robbery the same evening, and took the jacket to the station—I was sober—there was a lodger named Fisher, in the room next to me—I was much hurt by the kicking, and I had my face, elbows, and hips braised.

Prisoner. He took me over to his room and lay down on the bed: we lay there for three quarters of an hour, and he was acting indecently; I got up, and he said he would not let me go, without my watch and money; the other man took his watch and chain—I am innocent; every time I have seen him he has wanted me to go home with him: he always treated me.

Witness. It is false—the pieces of my chain were picked up in the passage, and the prisoner's tobacco-box—I have seen him before—he was employed at a night-house, putting some shutters up, but I never spoke to him before, and never treated.

MR. LAWRENCE.Q. Can you say upon your oath, that there is no truth whatever in the suggestion made by this man? A. None whatever.

ROBERT FISHER . I lodge at 6, Adam-street, next to the prosecutor—on the night of 10th January, I heard him distinctly come up-stairs—I did not hear him say anything, but when he had been in his room two or three minutes, I was going down again, and heard him say, "Get out of this, you have no business up here," as near as I can remember—I then heard some-thing which I thought was a friend of his, and that they were merely larking—they opened the front door, and I thought he was going home with a friend—I heard his hat fall distinctly on the pavement, after he went down—he came and told me something next morning, and I noticed a soar on the side of his face—I should say from his talk that he was sober.

HENRY MORGAN . I am a cook, and am acquainted with the prosecutor—I saw him on the night of 10th January, at the corner of Duke-street, not far from his residence—he was sober—I wished him good night, and he said he was going home—I Saw him going towards home—I saw two more walking about two or three yards behind him.

WILLIAM BURT (Policeman, D 192). From information I received, I apprehended the prisoner on the 11th January, in Oxford-street—I said

that I wanted him for being concerned with another, in robbing a man in Adam-street, of his watch, chain, purse, and money, last night—he said, "Very well, I was drunk at the time, and did not know what I was about"—I took him to the station, and found 5s. 6d. on him.

Prisoner. What I told you was, that I was not so drunk that I did not know what I was about. A. You did not say so—you said that you would go with me.

Prisoner's Defence. I am innocent of this charge—it is the first time I have been in custody, and I hope it will go leniently with me.

GUILTY .†— Five Years' Penal Servitude.

OLD COURT.—Tuesday, January 29th, 1861.


Before Mr. Recorder.

28th January 1861
Reference Numbert18610128-167
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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167. ART REYNOLDS (45), was indicted for stealing a copper, value 20s., the property of William Souter, haying been before convicted; to which she

PLEADED GUILTY .— Three Years' Penal Servitude.

28th January 1861
Reference Numbert18610128-168
VerdictsGuilty > pleaded guilty

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168. JANE DIX (40) , Stealing a printed book, value 1s. the property of Henry Thomas Swatton ; also stealing 3 printed books, value 3s., the property of Henry Horatio Eimpton; to both of which she

PLEADED GUILTY .*— Confined Eight Months.

28th January 1861
Reference Numbert18610128-169
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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169. MARY ANN LOWE(26) , Stealing 5 shawls, value 2l. 5s. 7d. the property of George Emery. Second Count feloniously receiving the same.

MR. COOPER conducted the Prosecution.

JOHN JOSEPH EMBERY (City-policeman, 11). On 14th January about 4 in the afternoon I saw the prisoner with another woman, at the bottom of Holborn-hill—they passed by me, and rather hurriedly went up Plum-tree-court—I remained and watched them—I saw the other woman give some-thing to the prisoner about the size of this parcel (produced)—I walked up Plum-tree-court after them—the other woman turned round, and on seeing me, walked towards me—the prisoner went further up the court—I stopped the other woman and raised her shawl—I saw that she had nothing there, and I was compelled to let her go—I then went after the prisoner—on getting about a yard or two from her, I said, "Hi! stop"—she turned round, and I then distinctly saw her drop these shawls on the ground—I picked them up, and I dragged her with me out of the—court, and called out "Stop thief!" in reference to the other woman, who had crossed the road—the other woman ran through a house in Field-lane, got out of the back door and escaped—I asked the prisoner how she accounted for the possession of these, I did not say, shawls—she said, u I don't know what you have; I bow nothing about it; what the other woman had has nothing to do with me," or words very similar to those—I then took her to the station—the shawls were not tied up—she could see them.

Cross-examined by MR. BEST. Q. I suppose they saw you when you passed them? A. I don't think they did; there were a great number of People about—I had the same coat on I have now—they passed me—I followed them a few yards—T have not seen the other woman since—the

shawls were not wrapped up in this paper—I got this paper from Mr. Emery since—these shawls were loose.

JOHN FINLAY . I am assistant to George Emery, 79, Holborn-hill, draper—on 14th January the prisoner came to our shop in company with another woman, between 3 and 4 o'clock in the afternoon—I was called forwards to show them some mantles—I went with them up to the show room, and showed them some mantles of different styles—nothing suited them—the other woman put her mantle or shawl on a pile of shawls, and whilst I was on the table she put her mantle on again and said, "There is nothing to suit me"—they both walked down stairs, and walked out of the shop together—about half-an-hour after they had left, the policeman came to me with these shawls—I knew them again—they all have our marks on them—they are the property of Mr. Emery.

JURY.Q. How long were they in the shop together? A. About a quarter of an hour—they came in together and went out together—the prisoner came in to choose a mantle for the other woman, and to give her opinion about it.

GUILTY on the second Count.

The prisoner was further charged with having been before convicted.

EDWARD JOSEPH DUDLEY (City-policeman). I produce a certificate (Read: Central Criminal Court, 20th September 1858, Mary Ann Lowe convicted of stealing a shawl. Confined One Year)—the prisoner is the person—a raffle-card was found on her, for the benefit of a woman just convicted of shop-lifting.

GUILTY.— Confined Eighteen Months.

28th January 1861
Reference Numbert18610128-170
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceMiscellaneous > sureties

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170. HUBERT EDMUND CHAKLES KELLY (58) , Unlawfully receiving to board and lodge, one Edward Brackett, a lunatic, without an order under the statute, or a certificate, and without being licensed for the purpose. Other counts, varying the mode of stating the charge.

MESSRS. WELSBY and GIFFARD conducted the Prosecution.

WILLIAM GOODMAN . My wife is Mr. Edward Brackett's cousin—he has for some time past been residing in the house of the defendant, for about three months, I think, or it may be a little more—I made an arrangement for placing Mr. Brackett with the defendant, by order of his father, at the request of his father, who is a very old gentleman, bordering on eighty—Mr. Brackett was at a cottage for some time, and I called in Dr. Kelly to visit him at the request of his father—he thought it necessary for him have some shower baths, which there was not convenience for at the cottage—I asked Dr. Kelly if he would take him—he said he would, not so much for profit, as because he thought he could do him good, and he received him into his house at three guineas per week—that was with the understanding that his servant was to go with him, a female servant, he had never been out of her custody—that was by his father's request—he would not allow him to go without, and Dr. Kelly was quite agreeable to it—he wished it—he said he would rather her to attend to him; being perfectly harmless and very quiet there was no occasion for any man at all he thought—I have had frequent opportunities of seeing him—he is subject to delusion—he used to come to my house, and I have gone to Dr. Kelly's and dined with him, and found him very comfortable and quiet—sometimes he would talk about horses, but I never paid any attention to that; I used to turn it off directly to something else; and he used to talk about the Queen, that he fancied he was married to her; and about being a military man—at one time he had a man to take care of him; but when Doctor Kelly was called in, the man bad nothing to do; he was so harmless—the man only slept in

the room and took his meals with him; it was quite a sinecure for the man to he with him—the man had been taking care of him—he was sent from the father's house at the request of the medical gentleman—the man was with him for a short time before he went to Dr. Kelly's, at the cottage, only to be an attendant on him—the servant who was with him before he was taken ill is still with him—the man's name is Millbank—he came as a keeper—he was recommended by Dr. Carr.

Cross-examined by MR. ROBINSON. Q. I believe Mr. Brackett was a clerk in the Oriental Bank? A. Yes, that was up to June last—he was the deputy accountant—he was taken ill—I don't know what the complaint was—I do not know whether it was brain fever—he came down to Pinner, I think in September—Dr. Kelly is a gentleman of high character—the father of Mr. Brackett, and he himself was so satisfied with his comforts there, that he was really grieved that he should be removed—the moment Dr. Kelly found there was a question about this matter he sent Mr. Brackett home to his father—he was treated with the greatest kindness, as one of the family—Dr. Kelly is highly respected for his skill and general character—the three guineas a week included the servant—the situation at the Oriental Bank was kept open for six months for Mr. Brackett—I have known Dr. Kelly four years, practising at Pinner—he is an old practitioner.

MR. ROBINSON here stated that he was not in a position to dispute that Dr. Kelly had not the requisite licence, but that he was not aware that the gentleman in question came within the definition of the Act of Parliament, as a lunatic. The defendant stating in the hearing of the Jury, that he would plead guilty, the Jury found a verdict of

GUILTY .— To enter into his own recognizance, to appear and receive judgment if called upon.

28th January 1861
Reference Numbert18610128-171
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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171. JAMES TITE (30) , Stealing 1 box, value 5l., the property of Richard Sivier. Second Count, receiving the same.

MR. COOPER conducted the Prosecution.

HENRY ELMORE . I am assistant to Mr. Attenborough, pawnbroker, of Fleet-street—I produce a duplicate relating to a snuff-box, that was pledged at our shop on 21st May—I took in the pledge myself—it was pledged for 25s. in the name of James Tite—I gave a duplicate of that to the person who so pledged it—I can't speak positively to the prisoner being the person, but I remember seeing him in our establishment—I have the box here.

THOMAS SMART (City-policeman, 411). I took the prisoner into custody on 4th January—I searched his boxes—I produce a duplicate of a snuff-box—I found it fn a portmanteau that same evening, at St. Paul's hotel—the prisoner gave me a list of the property in order that I might obtain it from there—I found the key of it in his "possession—I also found several other duplicates, one relating to a watch pledged at Sheffield, and a gold chain in Scotland.

HENRY ELMORE (re-examined). This is the duplicate I gave to the person who pledged the box.

RICHARD SIVIER . I manage an hotel at Ryde, in the Isle of Wight—in 1859, I was a commercial traveller—I met the prisoner at Southampton in March of that year—in April I was staying at the White Hart hotel, at Bristol—I was ill from the' 1st to 29th April—during that time, I was seized with temporary blindness—the prisoner accompanied me to Bristol from Exeter—he staid there a short time, and then left—he returned in rather less than a fortnight—at that time, he visited me on several occasions in my bedroom—I believe my watch, chain, and snuff-box were on the dressing-table

in my bedroom at that time—this is my box—I bad it when I was laid up there—my ledger was not there at the time; it was sent four days after I was laid up—I can't say whether it was there when the prisoner returned the second time—I was about to go on the Wales journey at that time—I remember the prisoner leaving the second time—I did not miss my watch and chain and box, till 28th April—I was still at the inn—it was when I had slightly recovered my sight—I had got a little sight, after having lost it—I wrote to the prisoner the day we were starting from Bristol to the Isle of Wight—I had never given him leave to take my box—I believe 5l. was the price paid for it—this letter is in the prisoner's hand writing—(This was dated Manchester, June 2d., 1859, from the prisoner to the prosecutor, stating that he intended to hand him the accounts he had received, as soon as he could make up the amount, together with his watch and chain)—The gold watch and chain was worth 21l.—this letter is also in the prisoner's writing—(This was dated Liverpool, June 24th, 1859, assuring him that the watch and chain were perfectly safe, and that the first 5l. he could get, should be sent for it)—I never saw the prisoner again until he was at the Mansion-house—this is another letter of his—(This was dated Carlisle, September 9th, 1859, assuring the prosecutor that the watch and chain had that night been sent off, and on receipt of an acknowledgment of the same, the box should be forwarded)—I never received either the box, watch, or chain—on recovering my sight, I tried to find the prisoner, on several occasions, but did not meet with him till he was at the police-court.

Cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH. Q. Before the occasion when you first met the prisoner at Southampton in March, you had been to several places in company with him, had you not? A. I accompanied him to Warwick and Stratford-on-Avon, and to Reading on the way to Warwick—I was engaged in commercial pursuits myself, and I believe he was also, as a traveller—we made the acquaintance of each other by meeting in the commercial room of the hotel at Southampton—I went with him to Stratford, previously to going to Bristol—I did not see him for a fortnight after he left Warwick-at Southampton and the various places to which he and I travelled, we were on friendly terms—we there agreed to carry on a correspondence with one another as friends—I was first seized with this illness at Exeter—I met him there, and proceeded with him from Exeter to Taunton first, and then to Bristol—I asked him if he would be kind enough to go with me, as 1 could not possibly manage to go by myself, and he did so—I never authorized him to go to any of my customers—he has not assisted me in a commercial way—if he rendered me assistance in the performance of my duties as a commercial traveller in consequence of my illness, it was not to my knowledge—it was not at my request—I asked Mr. Smith of the White Hart to write letters for me, and he got the prisoner to write for him—Mr. Smith was well known to the prisoner, I believe—they were on friendly terms I should imagine—I had stopped at Mr. Smith's house once before—I don't know anything at all about Mr. Smith's respectability—I have not seen him here to-day—I was confined to my room from 1st April till 29th—the prisoner was not, during the whole of that time, at the same hotel—he left on two or three occasions, once to go into South Wales, as I understood; he was there off and on—my father arrived there on 27th April—the prisoner used to come into my room on different occasions; he read letters that I received from my friends, on one or two occasions—it was the time of the general election—I do not know what connexions he had at all—he never asked me on the nomination day at Bristol, to allow him to

wear that watch and chain, in order that he might cut a respectable figure—I did not know that he bad been wearing them before 1 left the hotel at Bristol—Mr. Smith did not to my recollection say to me, "Why, Sivier, Tite is a great swell, wearing your jewellery"—I never heard him say so—I can swear that he did not say so, not to me—I never heard him make use of any such observation, not to me or in my hearing—my father is not here, be is at home at Ryde—while my father was at Bristol, he, the defendant, and myself dined together.

Q. Did not your father make the remark to you, "Is not that your watch and chain that Tite is wearing? A. Not till after Tito was gone—he did not say it before Tite—he did not make the remark to me while Tite was at the hotel, and before he left finally; I can swear to that—I never went out with the prisoner while he was staying at the hotel, not in April—I might have been with him before I was laid up in Bristol—my father was not there before I was laid up, after—my father never asked me whether it was with my permission that Tite was using my snuff box, and wearing my watch and chain—he never mentioned anything of the kind to me at that time, or before Tite—previously to my leaving Bristol, and previously to the prisoner's leaving Bristol my father did not make that observation to me—I don't say never—I say the day after Tite left he mentioned it to me—I received a letter from him within a week of his leaving—that letter is not here; it was dated from Tiverton—I did not reply to it; I left word with Mr. Smith, at the White Hart hotel, if the things came, to forward them to Ryde—I meant the watch and chain—I left Bristol I believe on 29th April—the prisoner left on the 27th, two days previously—the first intimation I had of the prisoner wearing my property was from my father, the day after he left—my father arrived on 27th, and I left on 29th—the prisoner left on the same evening as my father arrived there in the morning—if my father had seen him wearing the watch and chain, it must have been while he was there—my father said, "It strikes me very forcibly that is the chain I saw Tite with"—that was after he had started—I did not, just previous to my charging him with stealing this property, send him a telegraphic message, that if this property was not given up, I would charge him, not to my knowledge, or to his wife, or any one connected with him—I was not aware of the message—I never heard anything at all about it until this morning—I knew nothing about this telegraphic message, or about any message sent to the prisoner, or any one on his behalf—I did not request the prisoner to take my father round Bristol for a walk—I was not aware of my things having gone from the dressing-room table—I had only occupied the sitting-room for a day and a half previous to my father coming—my sight was quite dimmed, I could scarcely see anything—I thought that my watch and chain at that time were on the dressing-room table.

MR. SLEIGH here withdrew from the case.

Prisoner's Defence. Originally I had intended, through poverty, to defend myself, and had made up a brief, which through the assistance of my friends was kindly handed over to Mr. Sleigh last evening I now feel that I can say nothing to the jury, therefore I leave it in your lordship's hands.


28th January 1861
Reference Numbert18610128-172
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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172. JAMES TITE was again indicted for embezzling the sums of 27l., 13s. 4d. 4l. 7s. and 1l. 15s. which he had received on account of John Thomas King, his master.

MR. METCALFE conducted the Prosecution.

HENRY SOUTH . I am a brewer at Great Haywood, in Staffordshire—I am a customer of Mr. King, an engraver and lithographer, in King-street,

Cheapside—on 27th October, I paid the prisoner an account of Mr. King 27l. 13s. 4d.—he gave me this receipt—I remember his signing it.

JOHN DUTTON . I am manager to Messrs. Walker and Knight, wine and spirit merchants, Chester—on 8th December, I paid 4l. 7s. to the prisoner, on account of Mr. King, and took this receipt from him.

RICHARD BULLER . I am cashier to Messrs. King and Co.—this receipt for the sum of 1l. 15s. paid by Kellinglay and Co. to Mr. King, is the prisoner's hand-writing—we had customers of that name—it is dated 26th December, 1860, and signed James Tite—Messrs. King are printers and engravers, in a considerable way of business—the prisoner came into the employment in October—this (produced) is the agreement that was made at the time he entered—as soon as it was made he started off on his journey to collect orders—there was no mention in the agreement one way or the other as to his receiving money—the first intimation I had of his receiving money, was from Mr. South—it would be his duty if anyone handed cash over to him, to remit it to us—it is the duty of travellers to do so—it is the ordinary part of a commercial traveller's duty—we did not complain of his receiving money after he had gone on his journey—I received a notice from Mr. South, that money had been paid to the prisoner—I communicated that to him by means of this letter—(This was a letter dated November 16th 1860, requesting the prisoner to account for the money received from Mr. South)—he did not answer that letter—he answered a subsequent letter which we have looked for everywhere but cannot find it—I remember the contents of it—he commenced by saying that it was a fact he had received the money, but trade was so bad he could not possibly get on just yet, but it would be all right if I kept it close for a day or two, and he would remit the money—I afterwards received this letter from him, marked "private"—(This was dated Leicester, November 23d, 1860, complaining of the badness of trade, and begging the witness to let the little matter stand over until he came to town, it contained an invitation to the witness to join him in Devonshire, and requesting him to farward him a cheque for 10l.)—I wrote him another letter, telling him that it was urgent, and that he must settle the matter, this is the letter—(This was dated November 24th, 1860, it informed the prisoner that the matter might be kept open for a week, but that he must settle it by that time)—I refused the invitation in this letter—I said it was not my custom to accept the invitations of travellers—I wrote to him on 19th December, "Unless I hear from you by return of post I must acquaint Mr. King with the whole transaction"—on 21st I received this letter from the prisoner (read) "Derby, December 21st, 1860—Dear sir—after my wife's serious illness, I have come on here, to spend the Christmas with some friends—from here I shall leave for London. Will you kindly in the mean time, send me your private address, and say if a Devonshire goose will be acceptable—write to me at the post-office Derby"—I received another letter the same day, stating that the goose would arrive; and I wrote an answer refusing it—I received another letter on 27th December, asking me to meet him at the Cathedral coffee-house, at three o'clock—I went there and saw him—he had not got the money with him—he said it would be all right, that I might rely upon him without fail, that it would not be more than two or three days at the most, but he would not compromise me in any way, and the money should certainly be handed over—on the 30th December, I received this letter from him, stating, "My friend will arrive to-morrow, faithfully—I will then come in and hand the money over to you"—on the 31th, I received this letter from him, stating that he was going to meet his father-in-law,

that afternoon, at the Paddington station, and that he would remit the money or bring it on—when we found that other money had been received we issued this circular to our customers—this circular was sent out that evening, (read)—"January 3d, 1861—We regret to have to inform you that James Tite, who was allowed by us to take orders on commission, has been dishonestly collecting money for us; this is to caution our friends against paying him money; we do not know where he is to be found"—I did not see the prisoner again until he was in custody—a telegraphic message was received from Maidstone, on the morning of 4th January, that he was in custody there—I went to the railway station and met him coming from the station in custody—he was taken to the police-station—as we were going along in the cab he handed me this account of the sums received by him; it contains the three sums in the indictment; neither of those sums have been paid over or any portion of them—they would be paid to me, as cashier—he has not done anything towards accounting for those sums, except giving me these papers,—he handed over this cheque for 52l. which he had received at Maidstone a day or two previous—when he handed me over this balance sheet, he said, "I am going to Queen-street; I will make it all right, I have not done anything wrong, here are some cheques for you—here is one I have received from Maidstone"—that is on a different account, not at all connected with these three sums—while Mr. King was deciding whether he should give him in custody or not, the prisoner said he could see it was all up with him directly he saw the circular.

Cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH. Q. There was an account sent up by post previously to the prisoner coming to town, was there not, including the three sums which you charge him with embezzling? A. Yes; the 52l. was an account he had received in the course of business in the country, that is a bond fide cheque—he was engaged in October—besides his commission he was to receive his expenses—there had not been any settlement of accounts with him, but his commission account had been overdrawn; no balance had been struck—during the time he was acting under this agreement, we received moneys from customers from time to time—I saw him more than once in town previous to his being given into custody—in all his interviews he always said he would make it right in a few days, but he never did; I gave him more time—I knew nothing about his borrowing money—he said he had a friend from whom he was sure he could obtain assistance, and that he would be able to settle the balance between him and Mr. King on the following Monday—I think it was on the very Monday following that he given into custody—I might have advised him, on his calling at the office one day, not to speak to Mr. King as he was not in a very good humour—I can't say which day that was—he went into the country again after that.

MR. METCALFE.Q. Can you at all fix the time when he came into the office? was it before he went away into the country? A. Decidedly, before his last journey—I delayed this matter out of kindness to him, in order that he should pay the money over—the day I saw him at the Cathedral coffee-house he said he would settle with me at once, without fail—he then proposed to bring the money the following day, but he went into the country and I never saw him again till he was in custody.

THOMAS SMABT . I am a detective officer of the City police—I took the prisoner into custody on 4th January, at Mr. King's warehouse—I found on him 5l. 17s., a pocket-book, and a quantity of letters and papers; amongst

others a printed placard, offering a reward for his address—I found the letter which have been given in evidence, and amongst other papers "the song of a poor debtor" and "the rules of a country gaol"—he gave me an order to get some things from the Cathedral coffee-house—this cheque for 52l. was given up in my presence—he laid it on the desk, and it was handed to Mr. King.

NOT GUILTY . (See New Court Wednesday.)

28th January 1861
Reference Numbert18610128-173
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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173. JOHN SPRINGHALL(28) , Embezzling the sums of 1l. 10l. and 1l. 17s. 6d., which he had received on account of George William Henry Bone, and another.

GEORGE BONE . I am a book-binder in partnership with my father, at 76, Fleet-street—the prisoner has been in our service as carman for about twelvemonths or a little more—on 15th October, he was employed to take some book covers to Messrs. Esquilant—he carried an invoice with him—the goods amounted to 1l. 10s.—he has never paid that over to me, or a sum of 1l. 17s. 6d.—we dismissed him from our service on 14th or 15th January—I asked him on that occasion what he had done with the money—I held out no promise to him—I named these sum of 1l. 10s. and 1l. 17s. 6d.—he said he had made use of it, that he had tried to obtain a loan to repay it—I received a letter from him on the Tuesday morning as he left us on the Monday night—this is it—(Read: "Sir, I did not like to tell you then were other amounts of money I made use of, last night, now I send you a list of them, hoping you will give me time, and not give me in charge, for the sake of my wife and children")—There is a list of sums on the other side—we gave him into custody on the Tuesday afternoon.

FREDERICK ESQUILANT . I am a stationer at 346, Oxford-street—on 15th October, twenty book covers were brought to me from Messrs. Bone, I believe by the prisoner, I am not certain of the person—he brought as invoice—I paid him, and he wrote a receipt—this is the invoice so receipted—I afterwards paid the same person, I believe, 1l. 17s. 6d.—I had an invoice on that occasion—the person came the following day for the money and receipted the invoice.

MR. BONE (re-examined). The receipt to both these bills is in the prisoner's handwriting.

Prisoner's Defence. When Mr. Bone spoke to me about this money, I told him I had made use of it, and had been trying to obtain a loan to repay it; he said if I would acknowledge it as a debt, he would not punish me; he afterwards gave me into custody.

GUILTY .**— Four Year's Penal Servitude.

28th January 1861
Reference Numbert18610128-174
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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174. JAMES DURRANT(36), was indicted for that, he being bailee of 4l. 5s., did afterwards feloniously convert the same to his own use.

MR. COOPER conducted the Prosecution.

WILLIAM SAMUEL COOPER . I am clerk in the goods department at the Great Northern Railway, King's-cross—the prisoner was a carman in the employ of Mr. Hawkins, who delivers goods in London for the Company—I had known him in that service for about a month before this oocurred—he had to carry goods in the vans of the Company to the docks and other places—on 11th January, he came to me and wanted money to pay some shipping charges—I gave him 4l., he had 5s. the balance of a previous day—he never accounted to me for that money in any way—he promised to bring me back a receipt in the afternoon—he never did so; and never accounted for the money—he left me between 10 and 11 in the morning.

FREDERICK HINDS . I live at 2, Essex-place, St. Pancras, and am van guard in the service of Mr. Hawkins—I was guard to the van of which the prisoner was driver on this Friday—he told me in the yard of the station that he was going to the East and West India Docks—that was the only load we went out with that day—he pulled up in Cannon-street by the side of a public-house, told me to put on the nose bags, and said he was going after the shipping notes—he was gone about an hour and a half, and came back drunk—he got up on the van and drove to Whitechapel—he got down there and spoke to two men, and went away—I waited for him from 2 o'clock till half-past 5, and then drove back to King's-cross—the docks close at 4.

JOSEPH GREEN . I am a constable of the Great Northern Railway—I took the prisoner in custody on 14th January—I had looked for him before but could not find him—I asked him for the sheets and the money—he add, "Here are the sheets, the money I have lost."

CHARLES WILLIAMS . I am inspector of the line of the Great Northern Railway—on 14th January, the prisoner was brought to me by Green—I told him he was charged with stealing 4l. 5s.—he commenced telling me that he had had the money—I cautioned him that he need not tell me unless he liked—he said he had received the money from Mr. Cooper to pay the dock charges, that he had driven the van to the Minories; that he left the van in the street, and went away and spent part of the money, and lost the remainder, and in the morning he found himself with only 3s. in his pocket; that he was afraid to go back, and did not know what to do.

W. S. COOPER (re-examined). The shipping notes were attached to the sheet which he had when he came to me in the first instance—he did not require anything further—he had all the papers in his possession when he left me.

GUILTY .— Confined Four Months.

NEW COURT.—Tuesday, January 29th, 1861.


Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

28th January 1861
Reference Numbert18610128-175
VerdictsGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentencesImprisonment > penal servitude

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175. HENRY CARTER(24) , Robbery on Charles Miller, and stealing from his person 1 watch, value 10l., his property; aim unlawfully assaulting Martin Stronach, and occasioning him actual bodily harm; to both which he

PLEADED GUILTY .*— Four Years' Penal Servitude.

28th January 1861
Reference Numbert18610128-176
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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176. THOMAS WHITE(24) , Feloniously uttering counterfeit coin; to which he

PLEADED GUILTY . (See page 281.)

28th January 1861
Reference Numbert18610128-177
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

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177. SAMUEL BALDWIN(43), was indicted for a like offence; to which he

PLEADED GUILTY .— Four Teari Penal Servitude.

28th January 1861
Reference Numbert18610128-178
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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178. TIMOTHY HAYDON(50), was indicted for a like offence; to which he

PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months.

28th January 1861
Reference Numbert18610128-179
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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179. ELIZABETH PHILLIPS(22) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin; to which she

PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Six Months.

28th January 1861
Reference Numbert18610128-180
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty; Guilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment; Imprisonment

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180. JAMES WHITE(29), MARY BROWN(30), and ELLEN BURNS(27), were indicted for a like offence; to which

BROWN** and BURNS PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months each.

MESSRS. ELLIS and COOKE Conducted the Prosecution.

MARY ANN PENNILL . My husband is a tobacconist, at sykes-terrace, Mile-end-road—on Monday, 7th January, about half-past 8 o'clock in the evening, Brown came in and asked for half an ounce of tobacco—I weighed it for her, and put it down—she gave me a shilling—I tried it in my detector, bent it, and gave it back to her as bad—she said she did not know it was bad—she went away without the tobacco—this shilling (produced) is Very much like the one I bent and gave back to her—I cannot swear to it—it is bent in the same way that I bent the shilling I gave to her.

WILLIAM STREET . I am assistant to Mr. Riddle, ironmonger, of 7, Mileend-road—the prisoner Brown came in there on Monday, the 7th January, about a quarter to 9 in the evening, and purchased this dog-collar (produced) the price of which was 5d.—she offered a counterfeit shilling in payment—I gave her this sixpence (produced) and a penny in change—I put the shilling on the desk by itself and soon afterwards found it bad—I went out but did not see Brown—about 9 o'clock I went to the police-station and saw her in custody—I gave the shilling to sergeant Copping.

WILLIAM COPPING (Police-sergeant, K 3). On the evening of Monday, 7th Jaunary, I and a police-officer, K 141, were together in the Mile-end-road in plain clothes—I saw the three prisoners in company—I know the tobacconist's shop kept by Pennill—I saw them together about fifty yards from that shop—that is in the direction of Mr. Riddle's—I saw them all go up to Riddle's window together, and Brown went in, the other two standing together a few yards out—I saw Brown come out—she went directly to the other two—they all three walked in company from there to the corner of Globe-lane—I saw Brown go into a tobacconist's shop in Globe-lane-Burns remained outside—I took hold of Burns, and told her she had bed passing bad money—White was standing a few yards off, at the corner, in the Mile-end-road—Burns became very violent upon my laying hold of her and she dropped these two shillings (produced) on the pavement—I saw them picked up, and they were given to me—she said, "A man gave them me" Brown then came out of the shop, and I secured her upon a charge of passing bad money—White was brought to the station, and on him was found a shilling, two sixpences, and four penny-pieces, good money—one of then sixpences is the coin which was shown to William Street, from whom I got this counterfeit shilling (produced)—at the station White said, "I known nothing of the women," and the women said, "We don't know each other"—they were all charged with uttering bad money in company, and White said, "I know nothing of the women."

White. Q. Where did you first see me? A. Just by the Vinehouse beer-shop, by the Mile-end gate—the other officer took you in custody—I never saw this dog collar till I saw it produced at the police-station—you were taken into the station-house and there it was produced—I did not go out and fetch it from somewhere, and then bring it in—I did not say that you chucked it away.

COURT. Q. Did you ever see him chuck any collar away? A. No—I never said that I did.

MR. COOKE. Q. You took charge of the women to the station-house, not the man? A. Yes—my attention was with the women—it was quite as much as I could do to secure them—I had nothing to do with securing the male prisoner—it was after I was at the station that I saw the dog collar.

THOMAS VENABLES (Policeman, K 141). I was with sergeant Copping in the Mile-end-road, in plain clothes, on Monday evening, 7th January—I saw

the three prisoners together—I saw Burns go into the shop while the other two remained outside—she rejoined them and all moved together in company towards Globe-road—I saw the women go down Globe-road, and White remain at the corner—sergeant Copping left me and went after the women; and while he was gone I took White in custody—I collared him, and told him I was going to take him into custody for being concerned with two females in passing bad money—upon that, I saw him put his hand into his right hand side pocket, and throw from his pocket this dog collar behind him—I picked it up—it is the collar that I showed to Street just now—when I picked it up White said, "Some other persons might have thrown it there"—ho said, "I don't know anything of any women."

White. Q. How did you secure me when you first took me? A. I caught hold of you by your hand and your collar; one hand to your hand, and one to your collar, and when I found you had thrown this down, one man held your hand, and I put handcuffs on you.

COURT. Q. Did you see him pull the collar out of his pocket? A. Yes; I saw him throw it away, and then I picked it up quite close to his feet—there is not the least foundation for saying that Copping brought the collar into the station-house—there was no one round when I first secured him—at the time I seized him there was no person in the road—I took hold of his hands and took him into the station, so as to take care that he should not throw anything more away.

PORTER WILLIAM DUNNAWAY (Policeman, H 129). I have known Burns and White for some years—they have been living together as man and wife for this last eight or nine months.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . I am inspector of coin to the Royal Mint—these three shillings are all bad, and out of one mould—this sixpence is good.

Whites Defence. I work in the London Docks; I was taking a walk and met the two females; I spoke to the one that I knew; the other I had never seen before. We went into a public-house, and she gave me a six-pence; I took it and called for something to drink; perhaps that might be the sixpence. I stood at the corner while they went up the turning; I waited till their return, but I never questioned them as to what they were going to do, and they never told me; then the policeman came up and took hold of my hands, and said he would take care I threw nothing away, and then he took me to the station. About a quarter of an hour or ten minutes afterwards Copping came in with the collar, and said, "Here, here is the col-lar," and the other one took it from him. They never said anything about the collar on the first statement, it was only at the second statement they mentioned it. If I had not known this woman, I should not have been in it.

GUILTY .**— Confined Eighteen Months.

28th January 1861
Reference Numbert18610128-181
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty; Guilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude; Imprisonment

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181. THOMAS WHITE was again indicted, (see page 279), with MARGARET NASH(21) , for a like offence; to which

WHITE PLEADED GUILTY .— Four Years' Penal Servitude.

MESSRS. ELLIS and COOKE conducted the Prosecution.

ALICE CARTER . I am servant at the Army coffee-shop, Westminster—on Sunday, 6th January, in the night time, the prisoners and another woman came into our house—Nash called for three cups of tea, the price of which was 6d.—I served them, and she gave me a half-crown—I brought it to my master, Mr. Howes, and he gave me 2s., which I gave to Nash—she afterwards asked me if she and the man could have a bed—I shewed them up stairs—Nash gave me another half-crown to pay for it—I charged 1s. for

the bed-room—I gave the second half-crown to my master, he gave me 1s. 6d. in change, which I gave to Nash—shortly after that I went to my master, and he gave me one of the half-crowns—I took it to Nash and said, "You have given me a bad half-crown"—I gave it to her, and she gave me back the 1s. 6d.—when I had got that, and before I left the room, I observed both of them go to the window—I did not see them open the window—I did not find the window open afterwards; it was closed.

Nash. It was the man that gave the money for the tea. Witness, The man gave me no money—it did not lie on the table, and I pick it up; you put it into my hand—you asked for the bed—when I returned the half-crown to you, and said, "You have given me a bad one," you said that you wished I would leave the room, and I left the room for a few minutes, but I did not leave the door—I saw you both go to the window.

MR. COOKE.Q. Did they sleep there that night? A. No; they came away together.

WILLIAM HOWES . I am the landlord of the Army coffee-shop—on this Saturday night, I saw the two prisoners in my house with a woman named Smith—the last witness brought me a half-crown, and I gave her 2s.—I put the half-crown in my pocket, I had no other half-crown there—soon after-wards she brought me a second half-crown, and I gave her 1s. 6d.—I put that half-crown in the same pocket with the other—very soon afterward Carter came back again and said something which induced me to pull the second half-crown out of my pocket, and I discovered it to be bad—I pulled both out, and returned one to Carter—I saw the two prisoners leave my coffee-shop—I discovered the other half-crown to be bad about half an hour after they had been gone—I gave the second one to the constable Ashley, and went with him to a Mr. Phillips' coffee-house, where I found the prisoners and gave them in charge.

MARY ANN SMITH . I was a lodger at this coffee-shop on 6th January—I was sitting in the box where the prisoners were sitting—they treated me to a cup of coffee—I saw Nash take a half-crown out of her bosom, out of a piece of paper, and lay it on the table—I saw it was bad, and said to her, "It is a bad one"—she did not say or do anything, but gave it to carter, and afterwards when the prisoners had gone up stairs to bed I spoke to Carter.

Nash. The man pulled it out of his waistcoat pocket and gave it Witness. I did not see the man pull it out of his pocket.

WILLIAM ASHLEY (Policeman, B 20). I took charge of the prisoners at Mr. Phillips' coffee-shop, on this Sunday morning—Mr. Howes gave me this bad half-crown (produced)—after leaving the station Nash said that if I went and looked out of the window of the room that she and White had been in, I should find some bad money—I went with her to the place she described—I produce the half-crown which I found on the window cill—I have a third half-crown, which I received from Edwards.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . These two half-crowns are bad, and from one mould.

NASH— GUILTY .— Confined Nine Months.

28th January 1861
Reference Numbert18610128-182
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty; Guilty > pleaded guilty; Guilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment; Imprisonment; Imprisonment

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182. THOMAS JACKSON(25), MARY SMITH(17), and MARGARET YOUNG(19), were indicted for a like offence; to which

SMITH PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Six Months.

YOUNG PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Nine Months.

MR. COOKE conducted the Prosecution.

CAROLINE REBECCA GREEN . I am servant to Mrs. Bonham, who keeps a

hiker's shop in Hackney—on Wednesday week last, about half-past 8 in the evening, Young came into our shop and asked for a pennyworth of jujubes—she gave me a shilling, which I gave to Mrs. Bonham, and gave the prisoner a sixpence, a threepenny-piece, and twopence in change—a few minutes afterwards Smith came in for a tart, and tendered a shilling, which Mrs. Bonham found to be bad—the shilling was given back to Smith, and the other shilling was placed on a shelf in the shop—I saw it given the same evening by Mrs. Bonham to Harmer, a constable—it was marked in my presence.

ANN COOPER . My husband keeps a tobacconist's shop in Hackney—about a quarter to 9, on Wednesday week, Young came for a penny journal—I gave her one—she gave me a shilling—I tried the shilling with my teeth and found it bad—I had not time to say anything, as the policeman came in immediately, and said to me in Young's presence, "Is that bad?" I said, "Yes"—I marked the shilling and gave it up, and he took her in custody.

GEORGE PALMER . I get my living by laying drain pipes—on the evening of Wednesday week, about 8 o'clock, I was near the railway at Hackney—I saw the three prisoners there in company—I watched them for half an hour—I saw Smith come out of Mrs. Bonham's—I did not see her previously go in—when she came out, the other two were standing under the railway—she joined them there, and they all three went together up the Amherst-road—I spoke to the police-constable who was in plain clothes, and mentioned what I had seen—he and I followed them up the road till they came to Duncan-place, where Mr. Cooper the tobacconist's shop is—I saw Jackson go to the shop window and look over—he nudged Young, like this—she then went into the shop—the other two went across the road, and I followed them—the officer left me and went into the tobacconist's shop—I secured Smith.

WILLIAM HARMER (Policeman, N 166). The last witness spoke to me, and pointed out the three prisoners to me—I saw them in the Amherst-road—they moved on there in company—when they came to Mr. Cooper's shop, I saw Jackson look in at the window and nudge Young, and Young went into the shop—the other two crossed over the road—upon that I walked into the shop and inquired if the shilling was bad—I was told that it was, and took the woman into custody—I got this shilling (produced) from Mrs. Cooper—I handed Young to some one to take care of—I went after the other two with Palmer—he secured Smith, and I took Jackson—in the Broadway at Hackney, I saw Jackson make some motion with his arm, sear the garden of an oil shop—I searched that garden early next morning, and found this counterfeit shilling (produced)—they were all taken back to Mrs. Cooper's; we went back there—I told them that they were charged with passing bad money, being in company—Jackson made no remark—I told them they were taken in custody on suspicion of being concerned with Mary Young for passing a bad shilling:—Jackson said he was a complete stranger to her—the women were afterwards searched—no money was found on either of them—on Jackson I found a sixpence, a threepence, and two penny pieces—I went the same evening to Mrs. Bonham's, and there got this counterfeit shilling (produced).

WILLIAM WEBSTER . The three shillings produced are all bad, and from one mould.

JACKSON— GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months.

28th January 1861
Reference Numbert18610128-183
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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183. MARGARET SPEXCER(18) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.

MR. ROWDEN inducted the Prosecution.

ELLEN BLACK . I am a widow, and reside at 8, Upper St. Martin's-lane, and am a confectioner—on Thursday evening, 3d January, about 7 o'clock the prisoner came to my shop and asked for a brick loaf—that came to 4d.—I put in a crumpet to make up the weight—she tendered a shilling, I gave her 8d. change, and she left—I put the shilling in a small box in the till by itself—there was no other silver there but a sixpence, which I took out to give her—the next day, Friday, she came again about half-past 4, and asked for a loaf—that came to 4d.—she tendered a shilling—I looked at it; it was bad—I said, "The moment I saw you coming, I was sure you were coming with another bad shilling"—when I said the shilling was a bad one, she said, "I did not know it was bad"—she begged me to let her go, and wanted me to give her the shilling back—I did not give it to her—I sent for a constable, and constable F 81 came—I gave him the shilling that I had taken on this occasion—the prisoner was then taken to the station-house—I went to the station, and after that, I went home and looked directly at the one I had taken the day before, and saw it was bad—it bad not been mixed with any other silver—it was placed with some halfpence to pay a baker—I gave that shilling to the same constable directly—my little daughter Mary serves in the shop besides myself.

Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. When you received the first shilling, did you know it was bad? A. No; anybody might think it was good—I had 1s. 3d. in the till, and I took the 6d. out and gave it her, and put the shilling in—I never keep my silver in there—that is not the till—it is where I place money to pay my little bills—I took the change out of that for the prisoner, to save sending out for change—I sell bread, but do not make it—a cart comes with Stevens' machine bread—I had two loaves of that to pay for—that was what the money was in the till for—when I put the shilling back, I took out fourpence so as still to leave 1s. 3d. in—I found out that it was bad, directly after I went to the police-court—when she came with the second shilling I had not found out that it was bad—if the baker had come for his bill I should have given him the same shilling without knowing it—the second shilling might have imposed on me if I had not looked closely at it—the prisoner asked me not to give her is custody—she went on her knees and pretended to cry—she said, "I did not know it was bad, give it to me back"—I did not give it to her—I know her only by seeing her standing about the street; never by her coming to buy bread of me—she is often standing at the corner of Lombard-court.

MARY BLACK . I am a daughter of the last witness—on Thursday, 3d January, I saw the prisoner come into the shop—my mother served her with a loaf, and the prisoner paid with a shilling, which my mother put in the till—nobody serves in the shop but my mother and me.

WILLIAM WILBY (Policeman, F 81). The prisoner was given into my custody by Mrs. Black, with this shilling—I took her to the station—she gave me this other shilling next day.

Cross-examined. Q. Did you find out where she lived? A. 12, Clement's lane, Strand, about a mile from the prosecutrix's—only two farthings were found on her.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . These are both bad.

The prisoner received a good character.


28th January 1861
Reference Numbert18610128-184
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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184. SUSANNAH MASON (22) was indicted for a like offence.

MR. ROWDEN conducted the Prosecution.

MARIA ANN SNOOKS . I am the wife of Samuel Snooks, a stone mason, of

5 North-street, Mile-end-road—I have three children, named Mary, Eliza, and Edward—they are grown up, and Edward is married—he married the prisoner's sister—I live next door to the prosecutrix, Mrs. Ravenscroft—on Wednesday evening, 2d. January, the prisoner came into my house—my daughter Eliza was not at home and her sister went and fetched her from her work—the prisoner then asked Eliza to go to Mrs. Ravenscrof's to get sixpenny-worth of gin, and put something into her hand, but I did not see the coin—Eliza returned shortly afterwards with the gin and the change, and gave it to the prisoner—in about half an hour the prisoner sent Eliza out for some more gin, and put something into her hand, but what it was I cannot tell—she came back and handed the prisoner the gin—my daughter Mary came in about half an hour and the prisoner sent her to Mrs. Ravenscroft's for six-pennyworth more gin, and gave her something, what it was I could not tell, but I afterwards saw her give the prisoner some change—on Sunday, the 4th, the prisoner came again with her sister Ann and my son Edward, whom she sent for sixpenny worth of gin; she gave him a coin and he brought back the change and gave it to the prisoner—shortly after he came back, Mrs. Ravens-croft came in and said to my son, "You can take this, this is no good to me, it is a bad one; I want my good change," holding a coin in her hand—he took it from her and gave it to the prisoner, who had the change in her pocket—she pulled it out and said, "I have only 2s. 1 1/2 d. giving it to Mrs. Ravenscroft.

Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. How many Snooks' are there? A, Two girls and a boy, and myself and my husband—there were four to drink the gin—they were sixpenny measures, a quartern and a half—there were four quarterns and a half among four people—I had a drop of it—my husband was not there—I have not had any to-day—my three children were all taken up fur passing this bad money—I went and gave evidence on 2d. January—I was in bed when they were taken—they were examined next day and I went but did not give evidence; they would not hear me speak—they were remanded and kept in custody, and on the next occasion I gave evidence—my son has been married four or six months—Eliza always goes for gin for her mistress—she is in service close by but she sleeps at home—my friends and acquaintances sometimes send my children out for gin, but not very often, they only go out for it for two neighbours—the first time Eliza went out, was about quarter to 8 in the evening—we were in the front room, and there was a candle there and a fire—she took a little decanter which Mrs. Ravenscroft knew well—the prisoner and her sister did not have supper at my house—Maria went to see the prisoner's little girl home—I do not know whether we had bread and meat or bread and butter for supper—I do not think I had a drop of beer that night—I went to bed about 12.

ELIZA SNOOKS . I am a daughter of the last witness—on Wednesday evening, 2d. January, the prisoner came to my mother's house—she gave me a half-crown and asked me to go to Mrs. Ravenscroft's and get sixpenny worth of gin—I did so, and got one shilling and two sixpences change which I gave to the prisoner with the gin—the half-crown never went out of my possession till I gave it to Mrs. Ravenscroft—a little time afterwards the prisoner asked me to go with another half-crown; that never went out of my hand till I gave it to Mrs. Ravenscroft—I brought back the change and gave it Jo the prisoner—I did not know that either of the half-crowns were bad—I had no other money to mix them with—I was taken in custody and taken out of my bed—the Magistrate discharged me.

Cross-examined. Q. After the first hearing? A. I was examined and

remanded first—I was not at home when the prisoner came: I was at my place at work, and the prisoner sent my sister for me—Mason and my mother and my brother's wife were there—my brother was not there at all—I went out for gin twice—nothing was said about the money or the change while I was there—I fetched the gin in a little decanter—I did not fetch the third—I had gone over to my father at his club at another public-house—Mason was still at my mother's when I came back—my sister Maria came in just 88 I was going out—she was not at home when I went out for the gin either time; she came in as I was going to fetch my father—she was at home when I returned, and we all went to bed together—we had supper after the gin-Mason and my sister were gone when we had supper—I was at my work on the Friday.

MARIA SNOOKS . On 2d January the prisoner came to my mother's house and asked me to go and fetch sixpennyworth of gin at Mrs. Ravenscroft's—she gave me a half-crown which I gave to Mrs. Ravenscroft, and she gave me 2s. change—I had it in my hand all the time—I was taken in custody but was discharged.

Cross-examined. Q. Do you go pretty frequently for gin? A. No—I live at home—I go out to work but come home at 9 o'clock—I was not at home when Mason and my sister came—I did not go out to see her children at all—Mason and her sister went away alone, and I stayed at home and went to bed—I had some of the gin—she asked me to have a little because I was cold.

EDWARD SNOOKS . On Friday, 4th January, I was at my mother's home—the prisoner came in and asked me to go to Mrs. Ravenscroft, and get six-pennyworth of gin—she gave me a half-crown—I took it to Mrs. Ravenscroft, and brought back the gin and the change, not having parted with the half-crown till then—I was taken in custody, and discharged by the Magistrate.

Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. Afterwards, did Mrs. Ravenscroft return to your house, and bring back a half-crown broken in half? A. Yes—she said that it was bad, and my sister gave her two schillings and three halfpence, which was all she had—that was about half-past 8 o'clock.

SARAH RAVENSCROFT . I am the wife of Henry Ravenscroft, who keeps the Crown and Sceptre, in James-street, Stepney—I know all the Snooks'—Eliza Snooks came to me on this evening, and gave me a half-crown—I gave her a shilling and two sixpences—I had no other half-crown—she came again a quarter of an hour or twenty minutes afterwards, asked for sixpenny-worth of gin, and tendered another half-crown—I put it in the till—there was no other half-crown than that—nothing had been taken in the mean-time—I gave her two shillings change—a little while afterwards Maris Snooks came for sixpenny worth of gin—she tendered another half-crown—I gave her two shillings and the sin—I put it into a small till on my right, as she came further into the bar than her sister did—there was no half-crown there—within five minutes of that time, I was going to give change for 8 half-sovereign, and discovered a bad half-crown—I remembered taking two previously, and searched the till, and found that they were bad—I put one in my watch-pocket and the other in the pocket of my dress, wrapped up in paper—no one else had access to either of those tills—on the night of the 4th Edward Snooks came with another half-crown for some gin—I put it is the till thinking it was good, but, being doubtful, I took it out, broke it" two, and discovered that it was bad—I went and knocked at their door—they opened it, and I said, "See what you have given me "—Edward Snooks

took the half-crown from me—they showed it round, and the prisoner gave me 2s. 1 1/2 d. saying that it was all she had, and she would send the rest—I kept the half-crowns in my pocket till Thursday night, and then gave them to K 112, having marked them at Arbour-square—one was in two pieces.

Cross-examined by MR. TAYLOR. Q. Did you give the change for the half-sovereign or not? A. No, not from the till—I went to the cash-box, and gave change, and then, knowing I had taken two previously, I went to look at them—I first found that the two were bad, and afterwards the one—I had many customers in between the 1st and the 2d, but not with half-crowns—I am sure I took no half-crown—I knew that I took them from Snooks, but did nothing in reference to them—I waited till the Friday.

Alexander Taylor (Policeman). On the evening of 4th January I received these two half-crowns (produced) from the last witness—I took Eliza Snooks into custody—I searched her when she was taken to the station, about half-past 12 on the morning of the 5th—I found two halfpence on her—that was about half-past 12 the same evening—I did not search the house; somebody else did.

CHRISTOPHER LLOYD (Police-sergeant K 22). On the night of Friday, 4th January, I was on duty at the police-station, when Eliza Snooks was brought there; and from information I received then, on the same morning, the 5th, I apprehended Mason, and also Edward and Maria Snooks—I told Mason that I took her in custody on suspicion of being concerned with Maria Snooks, Edward Snooks, and Eliza Snooks, in endeavouring to pass four bad half-crowns—she said she had given Edward one, but did not know it was bad; and that she had received it from a woman to whom she had previously lent a half-crown—I said, "Have you ever given any half-crowns to the female Snooks's?"—she said, "No "—I said, "Did you give them any on Wednesday night last?"—she said, "No, I did not"—I said, "Were you at the Snooks' house on Wednesday last?"—she said, "No, I know nothing about any other money with the exception of that half-crown I am now speaking of"—I received this half-crown (produced) from Mrs. Ravenscroft, at the station.

Cross-examined. Q. When you put these questions to her, was it at the station-house? A. No, at her own house, in her own room—I went by myself—Taylor was not there at all—I took the prisoner in custody, and took her to the station about half-past 8 o'clock as near as possible—the female searcher searched her—I searched her house—she was not in bed when I searched the house—she was up, sitting by the fire—she was quite sober, I believe.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . These three half-crowns are bad, and from one mould.

The prisoner's statement before the Magistrate was here read as follows: "I have nothing to say, only it was good that I gave them."

The prisoner received a good character.


28th January 1861
Reference Numbert18610128-185
VerdictGuilty > with recommendation

Related Material

185. RICHARD MAYNE(17), Was indicted for a like offence.

MR. ROWDEN conducted the Prosecution.

CHARLES STEEL . I am warehouseman to my father, a market-gardener at Ealing—on Saturday morning, 5th January, I was in Covent-garden Market—the prisoner came to me about 7 o'clock, and purchased a bushel of apples, which came to 2s. or 2s. 6d.—he gave me a crown piece—I gave him the change, and put it in my pocket, where I had no other crown—in ten minutes or a quarter of an hour he returned, made another purchase, and tendered another crown, which I put in my pocket, where there was

no other except the one I took from him, and gave him change—after some time he came again, and bought a dozen baskets of greens, which came to 3s.—he tendered a crown—I put it in my pocket with the rest—there were no others there—I gave him change, and then discovered that they were all bad—I gave them to Gould, the market beadle.

Cross-examined by MR. DICKIE. Q. I suppose you are very busy at that early period of the morning? A. Generally—I was taken to the station-house and shown the prisoner at once, not with other people—that was seven days afterwards—he was dressed differently—I pass a great deal of money through my hands, but have not taken three crowns in one morning since the spring—I had never seen the prisoner before that I am aware of—I am sure that he is the man.

COURT. Q. When he came the second time, did you remember him as having been before? A. Yes; and when he came the third time, I remembered him as coming twice before, and passing a 5s. piece each time—I took the first without suspicion, the second I looked at a great deal more care-fully, and the third piece I looked at for a quarter of an hour—he was trying to buy the greens, and afterwards he said he would only have one dozen, and when he gave me the crown it excited my suspicion very much indeed, as he was bargaining with me so long.

WILLIAM GOULD . I am beadle of Covent-garden Market—on Saturday morning, 5th January, Steel gave me these three crown pieces (produced).

Cross-examined. Q. Do you often have base coin in Covent-garden? A. Yes, a great deal.

EDWARD MIZEN . I am a market-gardener of White Hart-lane, Battersea, and am accustomed to go to Covent-garden Market—on 12th December, about half-past seven, the prisoner came there to me, and bought a bushel of onions—he tendered a half-crown and a sixpence—that would be paying a shilling for the use of the basket, which would be returned if brought back—I put the money into my pocket—there was no other half-crown there—as soon as he saw me put it into my pocket, he said, "I will have another bushel of onions"—I sold him another bushel—he tendered me another half-crown—I tried it between my teeth, and found it bad—I said, "What do you call this, my man I—he said, "Oh, is it a bad one I if it is, I will give you another"—I said, "No, this game will not do; I will keep it, and give you in charge"—he turned round and ran away while I was looking after the beadle—I ran after him, caught him as he was going out of the market, and gave him in charge—I kept the last half-crown in my hand all the time—I gave it to the officer when he came up, and said, "I have got another in my pocket like it"—the other one was bad and exactly like it.

Cross-examined. Q. Do you take much bad money A. I have taken some—I am not prepared positively to say that the first bad half-crown was one which the prisoner gave me.

SAMUEL PRIOR (Policeman, F 45). On the morning of 12th January, I was on duty near Southampton-street, Covent-garden—I saw a crowd, and found the prisoner in Mizen's custody—he gave him to me with this half-crown—I took the prisoner to the station, where Mizen charged him with uttering another half-crown.

Cross-examined. Q. Was he searched? A, Yes, and 8s. 9 1/2 d. in good money was found on him—I did not find out Mr. Steel to see the prisoner—he came himself—he came into the charge-room while the prisoner stood there.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . These coins are bad—the three crowns are from one mould, and the two half-crowns from one mould.

The prisoner's statement before the Magistrate was here read as follows:" was not aware that any of them were bad; the three crowns I took at Smithfield."

GUILTY .—Recommended to mercy by the Jury on account of his youth. Confined Nine Months.

28th January 1861
Reference Numbert18610128-186
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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186. CHARLES WILLIAMS(19), Was indicted for a like offence.

MR. ROWDEN conducted the Prosecution.

WILLIAM MANNING . I am a beer-retailer, of Prescot-street, Whitechapel—on the night of 2d January the prisoner came for a pint of half-and-half—he tendered a florin—I gave him change, and he left—he came back in a quarter of an hour, for a pint of sixpenny ale, which came to 3d.—he tendered another florin—I put it in the machine, and found it was bad—I then tried the other, which I had put at the back of the till, where there was nothing but a half-crown, and found that was bad also—I kept them in my hand, ran round the counter, took him in custody, and afterwards gave them to the inspector.

Prisoner. He says I entered the shop twice, but I only went once.

Witness. You are the same man—I said to you that you had been there not a quarter of an hour before—I said you have been here twice—you hummed and had, and said you had not, and held your head down and never spoke any more—you came in your coat the first time, and the second time in your shirt-sleeves—I have the pot here which you brought with you—it is new, and has never been washed.

WILLIAM BRUCE (Policeman, H 42). The prisoner was given into my charge—the prosecutor said that he had been there twice, passing bad coin—the prisoner said that he was sent in by another man—the florins were given to the inspector in my presence—he marked them and gave them to me—I am sure they are the same—one halfpenny was found on him.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . These florins are bad, and from the same mould.

Prisoner's Defence. I went with a jug to get a pint of ale for a man, and the prosecutor said that the florin was bad, and that I had been there twice. I had never been in the shop before in my life.

GUILTY .— Confined Nine Months.

OLD COURT.—Wednesday, January 30th, 1861.


Before Mr. Baron Martin.

28th January 1861
Reference Numbert18610128-187
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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187. JAMES COOKE(34), was indicted for wilful and corrupt perjury.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE, with MR. HOLL, conducted the Prosecution.

THOMAS EDWARD STUBBS . I am a messenger of the Court of Bankruptcy—I produce the proceedings in the bankruptcy of Poole and Bryan—the petition is dated 23d August, 1860—George Freeman Newton is the petitioner—the adjudication bears the same date—I produce the examination of James Cooke—it is dated 12th November, 1860.

FREDERICK EDGAR VAN SANDAU . I am an articled clerk to the solicitors for the prosecution—on 12th November I took down the examination of the prisoner—before he was examined he was sworn before Mr. Commissioner

Goulburn—I was present when the oath was administered to him—after his examination was taken down, it was read over to him, and he signed and acknowledged it.

The examination was put in and read at length; he stated himself to be a tanner at Walsall, Stafford; that the only purchase he ever made of Mr. Poole, Was on 9th or 10th July last, when he purchased some miscellaneous goods, about 780 pairs of boots and shoes, amounting to about 300l., which he paid the following day; that they were delivered to Mr. Thomas Chapman, who had been his agent for years, and at whose recommendation he went to poole and Bryant to effect the purchase.

THOMAS BEARD . I was in the employ of the bankrupts as carman to look after the horses and do any other work there was for me to do-previous to 13th August, I had never been employed to pack goods—on 13th August, the warehouse was closed for the men; they were all discharged except Woodford and myself—on the afternoon of that day, I got some orders from Mr. Poole—after I had got those orders, I went to Earls Barton—that is a village about seven miles from Northampton—I went to the house of Mr. Thomas Stone there—the bankrupts lived at Northampton; their warehouse was near Bull Head-lane—Mr. Stone was agent for Mr. Poole at Earls Barton, in giving out work and taking work in—when I got to Mr. Stone's, I received a large hamper of boots—I was present when they were packed—Stone packed them—I took that hamper to Thomas Chapman's at Kingsthorpe and left it there in his coach-house—Kingsthorpe is about a mile from Northampton—on the following day I went to London—I got back to Northampton on Wednesday the 15tb, between 5 and 6 in the evening—after I got back, I had orders from Mr. Poole—after receiving those orders, Wood to id and I went to the factory—we had orders to pack a lot of trunks with Wellington-boots, spring sides, Bluchers, and half Wellingtons—we packed from six to seven trunks—Woodford and I took them to Chapman's at Kingsthorpe, and left them there in the coach-house—Chapman was there when we took them—it was about 10 o'clock at night when we left the warehouse at Northampton with the goods—we did not go the direct road from the warehouse to Chapman's, we went round, I should say, about three miles round to what the other road is: we went the Kettering road—on the following day I received orders from Mr. Poole to go to the factory to assist again in packing a lot more trunks—we packed about twenty trunks with Wellington boots, half-Wellingtons, spring-sides, webbing, and different articles in the factory, some manufactured, and some unmanufactured—Woodford and Poole and Chapman assisted me—we were about all the day—after we had packed them, we had orders to take them to Chapman's at Kingsthorpe—we took them there in a van and a light spring-cart—I drove the van. and Woodford the cart—it was about 12 o'clock at night when we left Poole's warehouse with those goods—we took them to Chapman's and left them in the coach-house, where we had put the others—Chapman was there—on 19th August, we received some orders, after which we went to Kingsthorpe—we got there about half-past 6, went to Chapman's house and saw him—he took us into his kitchen, and we remained there till 11 o'clock at night—Chapman then, came—he ordered me to pack up a trunk—we began to remove away the goods out of Chapman's coach-house into a barn, that he had taken from, one of his neighbours—the barn might be a hundred yards, or it might be a little over a hundred from the coach-house—it belonged to Mr. Weston—we removed from twenty-six to twenty-seven trunks from the coach-house into the barn, and a large hamper—they

were the same goods we had taken on 13th, 15th, and 16th August to the coach-house—we left them in Weston's barn—it was upwards of 2 o'clock in the morning when we finished removing those goods—I did not see the goods afterwards.

Cross-examined by MR. HENRY JAMES. Q. I gather from you that you had not seen Mr. Cooke at all during the whole of these transactions? A. No—I recollect going over to Walsall on 1st October, to see Mr. Cooke—I told him that Poole and Chapman had told me that he was to advance me some money—he did not tell me it was all nonsense—he did not give me any money—I asked him if he had received a letter from Chapman—he told me that he had—the last time I was examined in this Court, I said, "I asked him if he had not received a letter from Chapman"—he told me that he had received a letter—I said, "Did you receive a letter from Chapman and Poole?" and he said, "I have received a letter from Poole?" and Chapman, bat they have never mentioned anything of the kind that you have said to me "—those were the words he used to me—I don't remember saying, when I was examined here before, "I asked him if he had received a letter from Chapman, he said he had not"—I said he told me that he had received a letter, and that nothing was said in the letter about advancing me any money—he did not give me any—he never said anything at all about not having anything to do with me—he said he should not advance me any money, and I went away and left him—I went' to my wife and family; they were at Walsall then—Poole and Chapman got me the situation to go to Walsall—Cooke did not say that I should or should not stop—I could not stop—he did not tell me I should not stop—I went away because my things were at Northampton—I asked Cooke for money, to enable me to stop, because Poole and Chapman told me they wrote to him to that effect.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. What had Poole and Chapman told you'? A. Poole came to me on 22d September, and told me he had got me an excellent situation, to go to Mr. Cooke's, at Walsall—I did not tell all that to Cooke—I went there on 1st of October—I had no communication with him on 1st October—I had a letter from Chapman—I was first able to see Cooke on 3d October—somebody opened the door for me at Cooke's ware-house on the 1st, but I could not say whether he was a clerk or what he was—Poole lived at 17, George's-street, Northampton—no person, to my knowledge, of the name of Simpson lived there—I got back to North-ampton on 4th October—I was at Northampton when the messenger from the Court of Bankruptcy came—it was after the messenger had come, that Poole sent me to Mr. Cooke's.

JOHN WOODFORD . I was in the employment of the bankrupts, Poole and Bryan, as carpenter—I recollect the people being sent away, previously to 13th August—on 15th August I assisted in the removal of some goods to Chapman's at Kingsthorpe—there were seven or eight trunks—on 16th, I assisted in the removal of some twenty odd trunks—they were also left at-Chapman's, in the coach-house, adjoining the house—the removal to Weston's took place on Sunday, 19th August last, at midnight—I was present at the removal, and assisted—they were removed from Chap-man's coach-house to Weston's barn—they were not removed anywhere else that I am aware of—I was not present when the messenger of the Court of Bankruptcy came down—I heard of it at the time—I was then at Northampton.

Gross-examined. Q. You never saw Mr. Cooke at Northampton? A. Never in my life.

JOHN SHEPCUTT . I am assistant to Mr. Stubbs, the messenger of the Court of Bankruptcy—I had the seizure warrant in the bankruptcy of Poole and Bryan—I went down to Northampton on 23d August, and in conesquence of some information I received, on 29th I seized some goods at Kingsthorpe, on the premises in the occupation of Weston—I seized twenty-six trunks, containing manufactured and unmanufactured goods—silk thread, elastic side-springs, jean lining, silk binding, galloon, patent hoots and shoes, side-springs and Wellington boots, and a hundred skins, wrapped up in canvass, and a hamper containing boots—I took the goods to Poole and Bryan's warehouse or manufactory, at the Mayor-hall, Northampton, and they were there opened—in one of the trunks I found this letter-bag (produced) marked "Poole and Co. Northampton"—I also found this peg-iron (produced) in one of the trunks—the letter-bag contains envelopes and cards, bearing the name of Poole and Co.—I showed the contents of the hamper to a person of the name of Stone, and I showed the contents of the trunks to Fossey, and the seven packages of skins to Butcher.

THOMAS STONE . I am a shoe agent at Northampton, formerly of Earls Barton—on 13th August I delivered a hamper of boots and shoes to Thomas Beard—those goods were afterwards pointed out to me by Mr. Shepcutt—I am able to say they were the same I packed.

GEORGE FREEMAN NEWTON . I am the trade assignee of the bankrupts, Poole and Bryan—I had large transactions with him—the amount of their debt to me, at the time of the bankruptcy, was between 5,000l. and 6,000l.

HENRY FOSSEY . I was in the employ of Poole and Bryan, as packer, for twelve months—I was discharged on 13th August—for the twelve months previous to that date they had no other packer than myself—there might have been a few trunks packed at the busy time by somebody else, but they must all come under my superintendence—I never received orders to pack any goods to be sent to Mr. Cooke—I never saw Mr. Cooke before—I saw a number of trunks which were seized at Kingsthorpe, at the warehouse—if those goods had been selected by anybody, and sent out in July, I must have known it—I saw the twenty-six trunks and hamper at the warehouse—I can't say about the value of those goods, as they were packed—when we packed them in the original way, we considered a trunk was 20l.—the stock was very scant indeed—I was on the premises daily in July, and up to 13th August—I never saw Mr. Cooke at all—I did not hear of any sale to him—such a quantity of goods as were contained in those twenty-six trunks and the hamper could not have left the premises in July, without my knowledge—I used to pack fifty pair of Bluche in a trunk, and thirty-six of all other kinds of goods—I saw some of these trunks opened—I cannot say exactly how many I examined, because 1 was getting keys, and some of them were broken open—I examined a number of them—the goods were not packed in the regular way, in which I should have packed them—I used to put Wellingtons and short Wellingtons, and Bluchers all in different trunks, and they used to be lined with felting, and paper over the felting—these were packed without anything at all, and mixed, short boots, Blucher boots, and all in different kinds of ways—I examined the goods at the warehouse, on 30th—they were shown to me by Mr. Shepcutt—I had seen this letter-bag on the boy's back, on 9th or 10th August—I never saw but that one, it has "Poole and Bryan" on it—I used this peg-iron on 13th August, before breakfast in the morning, in the shoe-room, at Poole and Bryan's warehouse—there were five pairs of boots, I recognised among the goods, that came from Kingsthorpe, made by Skempton, of Hartlepool, they

had been brought in by him to Poole's warehouse, on 11th August—something occurred which enables me to remember that date—they were not made sufficient for our trade—I showed them to Poole, and Poole said they would not do, and Mr. Skempton must pay for them—they are the same boots I saw on 30th, in one of the trunks that was seized at Kingsthorpe.

Cross-examined. Q. You saw these goods when the messenger seized them, I think, on 31st August? A. On 30th August—there was a packing-room at Mr. Poole's, where the goods were usually packed—I was in the packing-room, and all over the warehouse—there was also what was called a dry-room there—goods were sometimes packed there, two or three trunks, just as we were busy—the trunks that were generally used for packing, were kept in the shoe-room or in the coach-house—the key of the coach-house used to be hung up in the office, and we could go and-take it just when we liked—sometimes we went to a man named Jameson, to get the key, when he was in the office, but the key hung just inside the office door, and anybody who wanted trunks, could get the key and go to the stable.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE? Q. You knew the quantity of stock, from 7th to 9th or 10th July, and during those days? A. Yes, supposing twenty boxes full of goods had been removed during that time, it could not have failed to have been brought to ray attention.

ELIJAH WESTON . I live at Kingsthorpe—the messenger from the Court of Bankruptcy seized some goods on my premises—they were brought there on 19th August, at night—they came from Mr. Chapman's, and were taken to a barn in my garden—about seven or eight days after that, they were removed to the part of my house where they were ultimately seized—Beard and Woodford were the men who were removing the goods from the coach-house to the barn.

JOHN SPITTLE . I took a man named Dawson; an attorney, into custody—I took from him the papers that he had about with him—amongst the papers there were two invoices—(These were dated 9th July, 1860. "Mr. Cooke, of Walsall: bought of Poole and Go. boots and shoes (enumerating them). 300l. paid sane time. Poole and Co.")

Cross-examined. Q. You were authorized, I believe, by the attorney of the prosecution to arrest Mr. Dawson? A. Yes; he was charged before Alderman Carden with being a party to a conspiracy—the charge was dismissed by the Magistrate, after several examinations.

ALFRED CHARLES WOODWARD . I am a telegraphic clerk in London—all the messages that are sent from the country are sent up to London, and we have all the originals here—here is one from Walsall (produced), it bears date 1st October.

ANDREW VAN SANDAU . I am solicitor to the assignees in this case—I have seen Mr. Cooke write his signature several times, and I have no doubt that this is his handwriting.

Cross-examined. Q. The signature, not the body, I believe? A. The body certainly not, but the signature is his (read: "October 1st. James Cooke, tanner, Walsall, to John Simpson, 17, St George's-street, Northampton. The party has arrived all safe, without a blemish. Signed, James Cooke, Walsall.")

SAMUEL BRYAN . I was a partner with Poole in the two businesses in London and Northampton—I was in Northampton during the whole of the early part of July—I am one of the bankrupts—I was not acquainted with Mr. Cooke, of Walsall—my partner had no dealings with him that I am aware of—I do not know of any large quantity of goods being sent away

down to the 9th or 10th of July; or of any being sold to a person of the name of Cooke—if such a large quantity of goods had been sent out in July I must have known it—nothing could have been sent away without my knowledge.

Cross-examined. Q. Were the goods that were sent away on 13th August, sent away with your knowledge or without it?A. Without my knowledge, but I was away from the warehouse then—it was locked up by the accountant's clerk—I could not get in at all—we had a business in London as well as in Northampton—I was in the habit of going daily to the office at Northampton—Poole made the entries in the books—I had nothing to do with the books—our goods all went to one house, or nearly so; if a buyer came to Northampton Mr. Poole would, of course, be the person that sold, if he was there; I was not in the habit of effecting sales—I am not aware that Mr. Poole made any—there were no sales; the goods all went to one house—we were under an engagement to send them all to one house, Graham, Tobias and Co.—I don't recollect having any conversation with Poole, and speaking to him about a payment to his father of some money.

Q. You have been examined before; were you not, the last time you were examined here, asked this question, "Had you any conversation with Poole about his father some time previous to August?" and did not you say this, "Not that I recollect, I understood him two or three weeks before 14th August to say, that he should sell some goods to pay his father some money, I do not remember the day?" A. Yes; I did say that, I beg your pardon—I remember that—that is correct—he did tell me two or three weeks before 14th August that he should sell some goods to pay his father some money.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Do you know his father? A. I do—I have not seen him lately; not for some time.

GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months.

NEW COURT.—Wednesday, January 30th, 1861.


Before Mr. Recorder.

28th January 1861
Reference Numbert18610128-188
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

Related Material

188. JAMES TITE(30), was again indicted (see page 273), for stealing on 2d October, 55 whips, value 48l., the property of Benjamin Ellam, his master.

Upon MR. ORRIDGE'S opening, and the statement of the prosecutor, it appeared that the prisoner was engaged as traveller, and was entrusted with two cases of whips as samples, which he took to Dublin, and part of which he had neither accounted for nor returned. The Court was of opinion that it would be impossible to prove that any offence was committed within the jurisdiction of this Court, and therefore directed a verdict of


28th January 1861
Reference Numbert18610128-189
VerdictGuilty > unknown
SentenceNo Punishment > sentence respited

Related Material

189. JAMES TITE was again indicted for embezzling the sum of 4l. 16s. 6d., the property of Richard Adams Ford, his master.

MR. COOPER conducted the Prosecution.

RICHARD ADAMS FORD . I carry on a shirt manufactory at 38, Poultry—in 1857 the prisoner was in my employ as commission traveller—he went to Bristol in October, 1857—on his receiving money from customers it was his duty to remit it to me—I gave him samples of my goods to take orders, for

—he was to transmit the orders to me and 1 should execute them at my discretion—I have never received 4l. 16s. 6d. from Mr. Tonkin, a tailor, of John-street, Bristol—it is a very common occurrence for customers to pay the party who comes, and it would he his duty to transmit it to me—I never saw the prisoner again till I saw him at the Mansion House.

Cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH. Q. Did you pay him any salary? A. I paid him by commission—I did not pay his expenses—he might travel for me and twenty others—it was part of his duty to receive money for me, if parties paid him—I did not give him instructions to collect money, and I did not instruct him not to collect it, but it is considered usual—it is not the fact that he had any authority to receive money on my account—I certainly did not consider his receiving it contrary to his employment—it is a usual occurrence for a commission traveller to receive money, and I have said that he ought to have remitted it to me.

Q. Were not these the instructions, that he was to furnish you with the names of the customers, and that you should receive the money yourselves? A. Nothing was said about it at all—of course he must furnish me with the names, or we could not send the goods—if the persons in the country do not pay, we should send down an account for the goods which we had furnished—there was nothing said about the prisoner receiving money either way; it was merely a verbal agreement—only this one order was sent up by him to us—you are still to understand that if he received money it was not contrary to his orders, or contrary to his duty—that has not been my impression at all, quite the reverse—(The witness deposition, being read, stated, "He had no authority to receive money on my account; I consider his receiving it contrary to his employment and duty; if he had received the money, and had sent it up to us, we should have considered it under the ordinary course of business")—that is what I stated at the police-court—I should not consider his receiving it contrary to his employment—I said so, but I think you will find that that observation was qualified afterwards by saying that we considered it under the ordinary course of business—it is an understood thing with travellers, that the customers pay the money—I do not think anything was said about receiving or paying at all—I have no recollection of his writing me a letter from Bristol just after the receipt by me of Mr. Tonkin's order—I believe if we had a letter at our house of business we should be able to find it, but we cannot find any correspondence at all from the prisoner—Tonkin had not been a customer—his name does not appear in our books at all—a statement would be sent out to him about a month after-wards—he paid it, therefore we must have sent it—we received this order in October, or it might be the latter end of Septembers—it was executed in October—I cannot tell you exactly.

GEORGE TONKIN . I am a tailor, of 15, John-street, Bristol—on 2d November, 1857, I was indebted to Mr. Ford 4l. 16s. 6d.—I paid that sum to the prisoner at the time—This is his receipt (This was for goods, less 2 1/2 discount, 4l. 16s. 5d. Received, J. Tite for Richard Ford).

Cross-examined. Q. When did you hear anything from Mr. Ford?A. It so long ago, I cannot say—we probably may have had a demand for the money—I do not recollect receiving one from the time the order was executed, till we heard the prisoner was in custody.

THOMAS SMART . I have been, since before January last, searching for the prisoner—he was given into my custody by Mr. King, of Queen-street, on another charge.

MR. SLEIGH contended that there was no proof of the prisoner being a servant

within the meaning of the Act, as all he had to do was to sell goods and receive a commission, he was not to receive anything for his servitude; and, further, that he did not receive the money by virtue of his employment. THE COURT. upon the first point, was of opinion that his being paid by commission did not alter the case at all, and considered that the second point was a question for the Jury.

GUILTY .— Judgment Respited.

Before Mr. Justice Willes.

28th January 1861
Reference Numbert18610128-190
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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190. SARAH SADLER(24) , Feloniously killing and slaying William John Brooks Collins. She was also charged upon the Coroner's inquisition with a like offence.

MR. PHILLIPS conducted the Prosecution.

JANE COLLINS . I live at 2 1/2 Scott's-place, Islington, and am the daughter of the deceased, William John Brooks Collins—the prisoner and my father were acquainted, but she did not live at his house—she came there quite intoxicated on 11th December, between 8 and 9 o'clock, and as soon as my father got into the house, she began quarrelling, and they went away to the Crown public-house—they came back in about a quarter of an hour, and stood at the door, and she struck him just over his ear—it seemed like a violent blow—I saw her hands doubled, but did not see any weapon—my father fell over a chair, but did not fall on the ground, as the chair saved him—he sat down on the chair, and said, "If that had been my eye, it would have been a black eye"—he said, in the evening, that his head ached, and next day he complained very much of his head—Mr. Thane, a medical man, was culled in on the Monday—my father was in bed all day on the 22d, and continued in bed till his death—he was only able to attend to his business two or three hours in the day, between the time he received the blow and the time he went to bed—he was a baker—he attended to his business a little time after the doctor came.

Prisoner. Q. What time was it when your father and me first went out? A. lie never went out all day—if he had a bad foot and was unable to walk, that has nothing to do with this—after he came in he went out to lock you up, but you were gone—he did leave his house to go after you, after he had the blow—you came to see him once before the surgeon came, and you may have seen him twice; not once or twice a day.

COURT. Q. Where was your father? A. In the shop—she could not have met him in the town, because he did not go out, and I would not let her in; but she used to come and walk right through, whether I was there or not—I did not give her in custody when she came to see him, because I thought nothing of it.

JAMES LOVETT . I live at 42, Ward's-place, Lower-road, Islington, and am a general dealer—on this evening in December I saw the deceased with the prisoner in a public-house—that is within five doors of Mr. Collins'—they were drinking together, and I heard a Quarrelling between them—the land-lord put the prisoner out—I did not hear her say anything then, but about ten minutes or a Quarter of an hour afterwards, she said she would bury a penny in his head—I saw her waiting about the place after she had been put out; and when Collins came out, she went up to him and knocked his hat off—I did not see her follow him to the shop, where he lived—there was a crowd—they went in the direction where he resided.

Prisoner. Q. Did you see me lying down on the ground? A. I saw you knocked down by the landlord of the public-house, in pushing you out—that was about 8 o'clock—a gentleman and lady picked you up—I did not hear

what you said—I did not see you fall and catch your head against my barrow—I only saw you fall once—I did not say that if I bad a horsewhip I would horsewhip the old brute, for he ought to be ashamed of himself—it was only words between you and the landlord; not blows.

JAMES EASEY . I am a cheesemonger, of 4, Scott's-place. Islington, next door but one to where the deceased lived—on 11th December, I heard a quarrel in the public-house, and saw the prisoner pushed out, at a little after 8 o'clock—I saw the prisoner walk up to Collins, knock his hat off, and he went into the middle of the road, and picked it up—he walked past my house, and just as he was going to turn in, I saw her strike him a blow just behind his right ear—he went forward from the effect of it, and seemed as if he was knocked down—that was all I saw—it was a violent blow—I should not have liked to have had it.

Prisoner. I deny striking him at all—I shoved him away.

WILLIAM HOBBS . I am a floorcloth printer, of 5, Upper Queen-street, Islington—I was at this public-house on 11th December, between 8 and 9 o'clock, and saw the prisoner and Collins having some words together—Collins asked his brother to turn the prisoner out, and she was pushed out—she was intoxicated, but Collins was not, though he had had a glass or so—they both appeared to have the effects of liquor on them—it was Collins who sent for the landlord.

HERBERT STAMMERS (Policeman, N 136). I took the prisoner on 22d December—I told her she must consider herself in custody on a charge of striking Mr. Collins on the head with her fist, and thereby placing his life in danger—she said, "Me strike him! I never struck him!—I said, "Well, he appears to be in a dying state, from what I can see I—she said, "He will never die; he has been dying this four years: but if he was here now, I would give him something, if I got hung for it."

CHARLES SEYMOUR THANE . I am a surgeon, of Springfield House, Canon-bury-square, Islington—on Monday, 17th December, I was called in to see the deceased—he complained of intense pain in the head, especially on the right side—I questioned him as to whether he had received a How—he denied it until the Thursday, when the prisoner called on me—after seeing her I went to see the deceased, and told him that she had called on me, and he said, "She has done for me" or words to that effect, and admitted having received a blow—he became insensible for some days previous to his death—he was partially sensible at times, but not quite rational—that was from about the Saturday when the prisoner was taken—he died at midday on 1st January—I made a post-mortem examination, and found a quantity of fluid effused on the membrane of the brain—the vessels on the right side were very much congested, and there was a quantity of serum in the ventricle or cavity of the brain—there was no clot and no extravasation, but the vessels were very much congested, almost amounting to extravasation—there was no wound or other appearance on the scalp—I cut down through the membranes, and there was no appearance of anything but congestion—there was no black or blue mark, and nothing of a local character; no extravasation of blood under the scalp—I believe that he died from inflammation of the brain, which, I have no doubt, was caused by a blow—I put that down before making the examination—a violent blow on the head with the fist, three weeks before, would be quite sufficient to account for the appearances I found—I have no doubt that he was a man of intemperate habits, which very much increased the effects of the blow—if there had been any external mark three weeks before his death, it most probably would have been absorbed before I made the post-mortem examination; but when I was

first called in I examined him, and saw no marks of a blow—there was a slight tumefaction, but it is impossible to say whether that was not through a blister he bad been subjected to.

COURT. Q. Might this appearance that you found on the brain be the result of something other than a blow? might it not result from a fall? A. Yes, or violent excitement; but the symptoms were all local—the congestion throughout was on the right side—there was congestion through-out, but principally on the right side—I had attended him on several occasions before—I knew the connexion which existed between him and the prisoner—f found the right lung very much diseased—the left was diseased also, but that was not the cause of death—he could have lived for years—that did not accelerate his death at all—all the other organs were perfectly healthy.

Prisoner. Q. Did you attend him six months ago, when he fell off the omnibus opposite the Thatched House; I fetched you to him? A. I do not remember it—I attended him three months ago, when he was waylaid in Green Man's-lane, knocked down, and very much bruised—that might not be the cause of it, for he was about at his business since that, I understand; but certainly, a blow received four or five months before would not cause death—the symptoms follow one another in such a manner that it was impossible to mistake them—I think I sent him lotion and cold pump water for his head, now you mention it—he was merely suffering from a black eye then.

The prisoner produced a written defence, stating that she never struck that deceased; that when she went to see him, he said to her, "Good bye, God blest you and protect you, as I shall not be here long to look after you; for that row a few weeks sines in Green Man's-lane has finished me at last!" that he had also fallen from an omnibus and injured his head, and that he neater alluded to her having given him a blow, not having thought of anything so untrue.


THIRD COURT.—Wednesday, January 30th, 1861.


Before Mr. Recorder.

28th January 1861
Reference Numbert18610128-191
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown; Guilty > unknown

Related Material

191. JAMES READING (23), and HENRY READING (30) , Burglariously breaking and entering the dwelling-house of Charles Swift, and stealing therein 500 pairs of boots, value 100l., and 100 pairs of shoes, value 30l., his property. Second Count, Felonious receiving the same.

MESSRS. RIBTON and INDERWIG conducted the Prosecution.

EDWARD WATKINS . I am a boot and shoe manufacturer—these boots (produced) were made for Mr. Swift—I took them to him on 18th December.

Cross-examined by MR. PARK. Q. Do you make for on the people besides Swift? A. Yes; and the same kind as these—they are a different kind of shoes from what I usually make—I do not make a great deal of these for Mr. Swift—I have made fifteen pairs for him—I cannot say how many I have made for other people—I have been making for another party this three years—I make a great number in the year.

GEORGE BLAKE ; (Policeman, S 266). I remember being on duty in Cam-den-town, on Thursday, 20th December—I saw both the prisoners that

evening, about ten minutes before 12, in front of the Southampton Arms, standing talking with another man—that is between 400 and 500 yards from Mr. Swift's shop—I saw the prisoner James again, at about 17 minutes before 6, in Arlington-street, driving a cab—Arlington-street is just at the back of Mr. Swift's, which is in High-street—I passed in front of Mr. Swift's house after I saw him—I tried the door, it was quite safe, and then I went off my beat at 6 o'clock

Cross-examined. Q. Was the door quite safe at 17 minutes before 6? A. Yes—Arlington-street is in the same direction as High-street; on the left-hand side—the toll-gate is at the corner of High-street—he was not going through Arlington-street in the direction from the Mother Shipton, but in the reverse direction—he certainly could come round the back of that street if he wished to avoid the toll, but he was going in the wrong direction—the Southampton Arms public-house is just by the toll-gate—there is not a cab rank there—he was standing on the pavement; there was a cab—the South-ampton Arms is on that side of the street, against Mornington-crescent—I go on my beat at 10 o'clock—I have four streets to go round: Arlington-street, Mornington-street, Warren-street, and High-street—it takes me twenty minutes to go round them, so that, every twenty minutes, I try Mr. Swift B door—I pass it every twenty minutes—I saw both the prisoners with another man, about 10 minutes before 12—I passed close by them—they were standing on the pavement—my attention was not called to them in any way.

ALFRED BROWN . I live at 3, York-street, Camden-town—I remember seeing the prisoner James on Friday morning, 21st December, at about a quarter before 6, as nigh as I can tell, at the coffee-stall at the corner of Warren-street—he was with his cab—he got down off his cab and came towards my stall, lit his pipe there, and went and stood close to Mr. Swift's shop—I did not see anything more of him.

Cross-examined. Q. Were you taken by the policeman to identify the man? A. Yes; the policeman lifted his hat up—he had not his hat off when I saw him at the stall.

MR. RIBTON. Q. Did you identify him at once? A. Yes; when I saw him going down to fetch his cab out, I said, "That is the man."

COURT. Q. Did you identify him before the policeman did anything to attract your attention to him? A. Yes.

MR. RIBTON. Q. Was it after you had identified him that the policeman desired him to take his hat off? A. Yes—I identified him both before and after—I am quite sure now that he is the man.

COURT. Q. Were you taken to the stable yard? A. No—I was at the top of the yard—he was going down the yard—I was taken to the yard to see if he was there, and while there I saw a person coming towards the yard, and I said, "That is the man" and then the policeman went down the yard and lifted his hat off, and said, "Are you quite sure that is the man?"—I said, "Yes, I can swear to him."

SAMUEL HENRY MADDOCKS . T am a letter-carrier, and live in Kentish-town—on Friday morning, 21st December, I was on duty, collecting letters-in the neighbourhood of Camden-town—I was passing by Mr. Swift's house on the opposite side, sind saw a horse and cab, and a man on the box, before the door, about 10 minutes before 6—I hard the door open, which drew my attention, and I distinctly saw a person lift something which appeared to be a bag or sack full of something, and then they closed the door after them, and lifted it into the cab—I do not know who those persons were—I did nut see anything further.

Cross-examined. Q. Had you an opportunity of seeing who they were? A. No more than passing in the morning—there is one coffee stall just there—there are very few persons passing up and down the street at that time in the morning—I pass there every morning.

CHARLES SWIFT . I am a shoe manufacturer, of 12, High-street, Camden-town—on 20th December, I went to bed at about a quarter to 12 at night—I was the last up in the house—I fastened all the doors with my own hands—I was aroused in the morning by the police, at about a quarter-past 6—when I came down I found the front private door was open; the lock had been taken off—the shop door had been forced open—that is inside the passage—I found, upon searching the house, that about 300 pairs of boots had been taken away, which were safe the night before—the brickwork had been taken away from the back door, and the beam of the door, also the upright, so that anybody could get in—that door had five bolts—these boots are my property—I can swear to them—they were safe the night before—a man named Watkins made them for me—he was examined before the Magistrate—these are the boots the constable gave me.

Cross-examined. Q. Are there hundreds of pairs of those kinds of boots? A. I cannot answer that question—I am a bootmaker—I have never seen a boot like that before—I have sold a good many boots like these, but not exactly like them—I have never said that I could not tell whether they had been sold or not—I have never said anywhere that 1 might have sold them—my name is stamped on them—I have the stamp in my pocket—it has not been put on since.

MR. RUBTON. Q. What is there peculiar about these boots? A. They are riveted—they are cut by my own hands—I have the binder in my employ still that bound them, and I never saw a man make boots like Mr. Watkins—he makes them different to any one else—I have never sold any exactly like these lately—I am quite positive that they were on my premises.

COURT. Q. Do you remember having the fifteen pairs of boots from Mr. Watkins? A. I do—none of those had been sold previously to 21st December.

CHARLES MERRICK (Policeman, S 328). On the morning of 21st December I examined the prosecutor's premises—I found the back door had been forced, an entry had been made into the kitchen, and thence into the shop—I received information from Mr. Swift that a quantity of boots had been stolen—I saw the front door; the lock had been taken off from the inside—I made inquiries, and heard nothing until 28th December—I then went with Constable All day to No. 1a, Coldbath-square—I went into the second-floor front room, and saw the prisoner Henry Reading in bed—I told him to get up—this was between 12 and 1 o'clock at night—he sat up in bed, and said to James Reading's wife, who was sitting down on a chair, I did the job; they have got me now"—I had only told him to get up, nothing more—I took him into custody—he said, "Will you let me see Mr. Somers?"—I asked him who Mr. Somers was—he said his master, the landlord of the Cobham's Head—T went there, and Mr. Somers had gone to bed—this was on the night of the 28th or morning of the 29th—at the station he gave his address, 6, Warner-street, Clerkenwell—I went there, and, searching his rooms, I found this instrument (produced) at the head of the bed—I compared it with the marks of the back door of Mr. Swift's house, and found they corresponded with such an instrument.

Cross-examined. Q. When you took Henry Reading, was he in a state of intoxication? A. Not that I perceived—I should not like to swear

that he was partly recovering from the effects of it—when I went to the house at Warner-street, Clerkenwell, I found an old woman there, named Elizabeth Humphrys, the landlady—the wife of James Beading was in the room when Henry Reading used this extraordinary expression—she was taken into custody by Allday, another constable.

COURT. Q. Did Henry Reading say that his address was 6, Warner-street? A. Yes, he did not mention any particular room as being his—there were eight or ten rooms, I should say, at 6, Warner-street, occupied by different people—I did not take anybody else in custody—I had never seen the prisoner Henry in that room.

JAMES ALLDAY (Policeman, G 73). I received information with regard to the robbery at Mr. Swift's—that was, I believe, on the Thursday after-wards—I went on the night of Friday, 28th December, with the last witness, to Granville-mews—while I was standing at the top of the mews, talking with Brown, the prisoner James Reading came up—I went to the top of the mews with Brown, and he said, "That is the cabman I saw"—he pointed out James Reading, who was coming up at the same time—Reading then turned down the mews—I followed him down, and told him I wanted him for being concerned with others in breaking and entering the premises of Mr. Swift, of High-street, Camden-town—he said, "Oh J I must go with you then"—I then took the prisoner's hat off—on searching him at the station, I found on him a key, a knife, and eight shillings in silver—at the station he gave me the address, 1a, Coldbath-square—on going up stairs, I met a female on the first floor landing, I followed her up stairs, and she went and unlocked the door of the second-floor front room—I went in, and on searching the room, underneath a box in the left-hand corner, I found this pair of boots (produced)—I then proceeded to Mr. Swift's shop, Camden-town, and took the boots to him—he identified them—I did not then show them to James Reading—I did on the way to the police-court on Saturday morning—I asked him how his wife came in possession of this pair of boots—the boots were with me at the time—he said, "I bought them last Saturday night, outside the Maidenhead public-house, King's-cross, of a man who I do not know"—I said, "How do you account for your time on the morning of the 21st?"—he said, "The first job I took Up was at King's-cross, I then set it down three or four doors this side of the Mother Redcap, Camden-town; I then put on the rank in High-street, Camden-town, and got off at a quarter to three, to the Mother Shipton, which took me from that time till a quarter past six, when I arrived at King's-cross"—the Mother Shipton is about a mile and a quarter from High-street, Camden-town, up the Hampstead-road—he said, "I put up at the yard at half-past six."

Cross-examined. Q. When you took him into custody did he attempt to run away, or make any opposition? A. No, he went with me quietly—Elizabeth Reading gave no account of these boots, and so I took her in custody for receiving them well knowing them to be stolen.

Q. If he had been at the Mother Shipton on that night, it would bring him into the neighbourhood of High-street, on his way back, would it not, about the time the robbery was committed? A. Yes, he could pass by Were, decidedly—he would pass by there, by Old St. Pancras, on his way to King's-cross—if he had got any sort of a horse that would go, he ought to go in an hour, or less than that—there is a coffee-stall at the end of Warren-street, about six or seven doors from Mr. Swift's shop—I do not know whether he had any coffee or not.

JAMES BROOK (Policeman, S 334). On Friday morning, 21st December, I was on duty in High-street—I passed Mr. Swift's house—I found the private door standing open—that was about a quarter to six in the morning—it was I that disturbed Mr. Swift.

MR. PARK to JAMES ALLDAY. Q. Did not you go into a street in the Caledonian-road with the prisoner James? A. Yes; he took mo to a house in Cumming-street—he said he had taken them there—I went with him and another officer—when I got there I found nothing—he pointed out one house and said, "That is the house," and then afterwards to another, and so he kept on—he said that was the house where he took the boots to.

COURT. Q. When was this? A. I cannot exactly say the day, but it was on the remand—I went to the Caledonian-road, because he sent for the prosecutor, and the prosecutor went to him—I was not present.

MR. SWIFT (re-examined). I think it was on the last remand, I will not be positive, that the prisoner James sent his master to me—somebody came to me, and in consequence of that I saw James Beading—he said, "I own I took your property away, and if you will not prosecute me I will tell you where I took it to"—I said I could not do that—I said, "If you like to state where the property was taken to, the Magistrate, no doubt, will deal favourably with you."

COURT to JAMES ALLDAY. Q. You say that after this you went with James Reading? A. I did, and he pointed out first, No. 4, and then he said, "No, that is it," next door I think that was—and then he went back to No. 4—I did not take anyone into custody—I did not search any of those houses—I was in the cab all the time—since that, another constable searched a house there, and found a bundle of bristles, which corresponded with a burglary that had been committed in Clerkenwell—they took a person in custody, but he was afterwards discharged.

HENRY READING received a good character NOT GUILTY .

JAMES READING GUILTY on Second Count.†— Confined Eighteen Months.

28th January 1861
Reference Numbert18610128-192
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

Related Material

192. JOHN VERGO (27) , Stealing a watch, value 15 guineas, of John Watts, from his person.

MR. TAYLOR conducted the Prosecution.

JOHN WATTS . I am a stone merchant of 1, Northampton-street, Lower-road, Islington—on the evening of Tuesday, 15th January, between eleven and twelve o'clock, I was in Fore-street, Cripplegate—I went into a public-house there, at the corner of Moor-lane—I had had a glass of wine too much—I went in at the private door of the public-house, the bottle entrance, I think they call it—I called for three-pennyworth of whiskey and warm weter—I put it to my lips, and declined to pay for it—the landlord said that if I did not, they would put me out, and they did so, and when I came out the prisoner was on the pavement—he knocked against me—I felt the blow on my chest, and instantly he turned from me And ran away—I looked down and found my watch gone, and my chain hanging down—he ran away in the right direction, up Moor-lane—18 guineas was the value of my watch—this (produced) is the chain—it is what they term a patent swivel—this part was pulled open so violently as to straighten it quite—I shouted that a fellow had taken my watch, and the witness, Emma Sydham, came up and ask me if I had lost my watch—I requested her to come to the station—we went together to the station house—there was no other person near me when this occurred—next morning I went to the station between ten and eleven—I was shown I think five men, but I am not quite certain—Is

pointed out the prisoner at once as being the man that stole my watch—I will swear most positively he is the man.

Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. Q. Besides having had a glass of wine, were you having some whiskey? A. I just sipped it—I did not go into that public-house twice, that I am aware of—I do not mean to say that, I might have gone in three or four times—I went in at one door and he shut the other against me—I believe the door was shut against me twice—I think I tried to get in again—it was the second time that this man shoved against me—I believe I did not go in twice—I was quite in a sufficient state to recognise the man the next morning—I believed that to be quite sufficient—I told the police-constable first that I believed I saw the man on the pavement—I said I knew I saw him on the pavement—I swear most positively that I did see him on the pavement when I came out of the house.

Q. Did you not say, "I did not notice the male prisoner when I was in the public-house; I believe I saw him on the pavement when I came out?" A. Well, that is tantamount to my evidence—I do not know that I did say that—I cannot swear that I did not say it—I saw the person that I swear to be the prisoner, turn down into Moor-lane—I did not see anybody else near me at that time—I saw the on man Sydham, immediately I discovered that I had lost my watch—I was then at the bottle entrance of the public-house, and she was coming down the pavement—I did not go and drink with her at all afterwards, not that same night, nor the next morning; not at all, not when I went up to the police-court—I have never on any occasion been drinking with her, or drinking in the same public-house with her, since this matter occurred, nor yet in the same room—from that time to the present, I might have given her a glass of ale outside—I have done so, and I might have drunk at the same time—I had it brought outside in the street—I had a glass of wine—I asked her if she would have a little ale, and she did—that occurred twice—I will swear most positively that I was not drinking with her that night; not at all in her presence—I waited at the station-house till half-past two o'clock, as they told me they thought they could find the prisoner—the next morning I called at the station and found this man there—I believe the barman of the public-house pushed me out—I was turned out twice, the barman pushing me bodily out—I was never in that public-house before, and hope never to go into such a den of thieves again—I went there the following morning—they did not tell me that some man had picked up my pocket-book—I did lose a pocket-book—I found it wanting when I was dressing next morning—I received information at the office that some person had it—I was not told, when I went to the public-house, that a person had picked up my pocket-book—I did go to a person and get it—the gentleman that picked it up, wrote a letter the same night or the next morning, and put it in my letter-box, and I found the letter there the next morning; consequently I knew whereto find the pocket-book.

MR. TAYLOR.Q. You say that what took place on the pavement outside, was after you had been twice into the house? A. Yes; I went to the police-station the next morning—I received no information there about my pocket-book until I mentioned the circumstance.

EMMA SYDHAM . I live at 39, Walworth-road, and am a laundress and ironer—I am married; my husband is away—I was coming down Fore-street at about half-past 11, on the night of 15th January—I know the public-house at the corner of Moor-lane—I saw the prosecutor opposite the private door of that—I saw the prisoner and a female there—I saw the

prisoner take hold of the breast of the prosecutor's coat, and I immediately saw his chain hanging down, and saw the prisoner run down Moor-lane with something apparently in his hand—the woman ran after the prisoner—I spoke to the prosecutor, and afterwards went to the station with him—I there gave a description of the prisoner—I next saw the prisoner on the following morning—I am quite certain he is the man.

Cross-examined. Q. How near were you to Mr. Watts at the time this took place? A. Very near; I was passing by him on the pavement—I never saw him before—I did not see him bundled out of the public-house, I saw him on the pavement—I have been in that public-house; not very frequently—I live at 39, Walworth-road, occasionally—I have friends there—at other times I live sometimes at one place, sometimes at another—I work for persons, anybody that likes to employ me; some at Islington, and some at Covent-garden—I lived in Coleman-street, City, eight months—I came from my bed this morning—my bed is where I slept that night—I slept at the Oxford Arms, in Warwick-lane, Newgate-street—I was at Islington the night before—I slept at 39, Walworth-road, last Sunday night—Mrs. Ferguson is the person that lives there—on my oath I do not live in a court in Moor-lane—I was not, at the time this took place, living in a court in Moor-lane—I never have lived in Moor-lane—my occupation brought me out at that time—on the night of 15th January, the night this took place, I slept in Coleman-street, City—Coleman-street leads into Moorgate-street—it is a little distance from Moor-lane—the night before this occurred, I did not go to sleep all night; I was at work all night—I had been at work on this day at Bedford-street, Covent-garden—it was about 10 o'clock when I left there—it was about half-past 11 when I got into Fore-street—I was not going home then: I was going down Moor-lane to a party that does a little work for me—I very often go up a street and down a street—I am not there constantly.

Q. What induced you to give an address at Walworth, when you were at that very time living at Coleman-street? A. I have some friends there—I sleep sometimes at Walworth-road, sometimes at Coleman-street, and some-times at the Oxford Arms; where my business calls me—I have not had apartments of my own since my husband left me: but I have friends that will always accomodate me with lodging as far as their power—my husband left me two years ago last April—I lived then at the West-end, at Newman-street, Oxford-street—I never saw Mr. Watts before this—I did not see him afterwards till I came up to the Court—that was the next day—I never drank with him at all—he did not give me anything to drink; nor on the next day when I went up to Guildhall—I have not drunk with him at all since—I never drank with the gentleman at all—I never drank at his expense at all—I am quite sure of that.

COURT. Q. Has he given you anything to drink at any time? A. Well, I dined and drank at the same table, but I did not drink with the gentle-man.

MR. METCALFE. Q. When was that, and where? A. Where I dined with the witnesses—Mr. Watts did not pay for it—I have never had anything at his expense—I swear that.

MR. TAYLOR. Q. You say that your address is at 39, Walworth-road? I A. Yes; I have some friends there, and some friends in Coleman-street—I never saw Mr. Watts at all before that night—I am sure the prisoner is the man who came up.

AARON BLAKE (City-policeman, 177). I received information on Tuesday

night, 15th January, of Mr. Watts having lost his watch—I saw the last witness by the station—she gave me a description of a man, in consequence of which I made inquiry on my beat, and found out where the prisoner lived—I went to 16, Angel-alley—I went up-stairs to the room where he lived—there was no one at home—I came out of the house and went round on my beat—I went there a second time a little before 3 o'clock—as I came down-stairs I met his wife—after that I went and hid in a dark place, down an alley, and I saw him come and stand at the end of the little court out of that alley, and then run into the passage of the house—that was about a quarter or ten minutes to 3 o'clock—he had on the same dress that he has now—I followed him, took him into custody, and told him the charge, of robbing a gentleman of a gold watch in Fore-street, between 11 and 12 o'clock.

Cross-examined. Q. Did you search him? A. Yes; but found nothing on him.


OLD COURT.—Thursday, January 31st, 1861.


Before Mr. Recorder.

28th January 1861
Reference Numbert18610128-193
VerdictGuilty > unknown

Related Material

193. HENRY HART (68), was indicted for wilful and corrupt perjury.

MR. ERNEST JONES conducted the Prosecution.

ROBERT MERTON . I am a licensed victualler, keeping the Castle public-house, Portugal-street, Lincolns-inn-fields—in the month of October, I had a bill of exchange brought to me—this is it (produced)—it is for 23l. 10s., drawn by Mr. Appleyard, and accepted by George Hildebrand-Mr. Apple-yard was a lodger of mine—he was in my debt for lodging and different purposes, something over that amount; Mr. Hildebrand was a gentleman who allowed him a certain amount of money, and he gave me the bill for my debt—I know the defendant, he was a regular evening customer at my house—he knew that the bill was coming, from conversation between Appleyard and me—a week or eightdays before the bill came to maturity, the defendant and I were speaking about the bill, and he stated that he would give me the money for the bill, the full amount, which money I consented to hold for a certain time; and if he could get the money from Hildebrand, he should keep it, and I should keep the money I had; if not, I should return the money at any time he called for it—he told me that with me there might be some excuse, there might be a defence; but as against him a third party holding the bill, there could be no defence, as he had given consideration for it—I consented to that arrangement—the defendant gave me 23l. 78.—he said, "I must go into the City to present this bill, it will cost me something, allow me 38."—I said, "very well, anything that is reasonable," and I did allow him the 38.—he did not sign this memorandum at that time—this memorandum was given the day the bill came to maturity—the defendant told me that he went into the City, and presented the bill, and that it was dishonoured—a Mr. Wiseman came to my house that same evening and presented a notice of dishonour—the following morning T took this memorandum to the defendant—I paid him back the 231. 108., and he signed this memorandum and also wrote this at his office, before 11 o'clock in the morning—(read: "October 24th, 1860. Mr. Merton,—Dear Sir,—I hereby undertake to indemnify and save you

harmless from all or any costs, charges, and expenses, which may be sustained or incurred by reason of bringing an action or other proceeding to recover the amount due on a certain bill of exchange drawn by J. Appleyard, and accepted by Hildebrand, and I also undertake that no action or other proceeding, shall be brought against you in respect thereof; but that on payment of the sum of 23l. 7s. and 3s. allowed by you to me, I will deliver or cause to be delivered, the said bill of exchange into your possession, without any fee or other expense whatever. H. Hart." "I hereby undertake to pay over the full amount of 23l. 10s. without any deduction, H. Hart."—" 24th October, received the above sum of 23l. 7s. and 3s. from Mr. Merton. H. Hart."

COURT. Q. Was that written by yourself? A. No, by a friend of mine, and signed by Hart—all that side of the paper is Hart's writing.

MR. JONES.Q. Having paid him the money, did you take that receipt? A. I took that receipt away with me—he signed it, but the stamp was not then on it—I brought it from his office, and in the course of the day I put the stamp on it myself, and when he came in the evening, he signed over the stamp—I was not satisfied with the paper without a stamp upon it, from something I heard—he put his name twice, and his name over the stamp was written in the evening—there is no signature under the stamp—he signed it here and here (pointing to the paper)—he did not sign the receipt at. his office, and I was not satisfied.

Q. Here is an I.O.U. given by you to the defendant on 26th, will you explain how you came to give that?. A. Mr. Hart wanted something to hold, to show in any Court we might go to, that he had given me the money, and he asked me to give him an I.O.U. for 23l. 10s. to hold from me, as having given me the full amount of money, as I had got a receipt for the bill; and I gave him this I.O.U.—that was two days after the bill was dishonoured—I gave it him at his request—I left the bill in his hands for him to sue, in his own name—the defendant subsequently summoned me at the Westminster County Court, and the action was tried there, I think, about 23d January—judgment was given in my favour—on that occasion the defendant swore that I had paid him 20l. back, about six weeks before, and he also swore that I stole this document from his office—he said that 3l. 10s. remained due, for which 3l. 10s. he summoned me to the Court—he admitted his handwriting to the receipt, but said I had stolen it from his office—first he said I took the money and put it on the table, and then he said I kept it in my hand.

Cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH. Q. You have known this old gentleman a good many years, have you not? A. No, about six or seven months—this memorandum, commencing, "Dear Sir," I took from my house to Hart's office on the morning of 24th—he signed the receipt at my house in the evening—he came there alone—I had written the receipt before he came—that was all written when I took it to him in the morning—all was written in the morning except the signature over the stamp—I have not stated before that he signed "H. Hart" at the foot of the receipt in the morning; but I was not satisfied, because there was no stamp on it, and got him to sign it over again in the evening—this, which purports to be a receipt, was' written at the time when he signed "H. Hart" above here—that was done at his office—I did not notice the paper so much till I brought it away, and then a friend of mine who wrote it, said it would not do—that was Mr. Le Neve—he is a law stationer—he is not here—I knew what the contents of the paper were when I procured the defendant's signature to it—he said

that what he wrote on the opposite side was quite sufficient for me—I did not get him to sign over the stamp in the morning—I thought of that afterwards—I did not think it necessary to ask him to sign it in the morning—I asked the barmaid to watch for his coming in the evening, and before he went into the parlour, as was his ordinary rule, he came into my little parlour and signed over the receipt—he had not been in the house five minutes then—my barmaid is here who saw him sign it—he was as sober as he is now, I never saw him the worse for drink—he staid till 12 o'clock that night: after signing the paper—he came about 9; that was his usual time; he came every evening—this "I hereby undertake to pay," was written by the defendant at his office in the morning—I did not ask him to write it—he said, "I will give you something to satisfy you," and he wrote that—I was proceeded against with regard to the, bill, but the matter has been stopped, Mr. Appleyard came and said, "Let us be friends," and stopped the action—a writ was issued against me—it was an action of trover for unlawfully detaining the bill—I never had the bill—Mr. Hart would not give it up; it was impounded in the County Court—the action was not brought against me in the name of Hart—he admitted at the County Court that the signatures were his own—he did not say that he did not know what he was signing at the time—the judge put the paper in his hand three different times, and asked him if they were his signatures, and he said, "Yes, they are "—the judge asked how he could account for its coming from me, and he said, "I cannot account for it in any way; he brought the money in the morning"—he said at first that I put the money on the table, then that he saw it in my hand, and he said he must have signed it inadvertently, and I must have stolen it from his office—I don't know anything about this endorsement of "cash, 20l." on the I.O.U.; I never saw that till now—I gave the L.O.U.—it is in my writing—I don't know in whose handwriting the endorsement of "cash, 20l." is; it is not mine; I never saw it before—no messenger from the defendant applied to me for the payment of this 3l. 10s. before the summons was issued—there was a messenger came, but she did not come for that—I saw her—Mr. Hart was in the habit of sending to me for small amounts of money—she did not say a word about coming from Mr. Hart for payment of the balance of 3l. 10s.—she brought a note to me—I don't know where it is—on his (produced) is a note that came from him; it was one of this kind—it may not have been this note—I have received notice to produce it, but I have not got it and cannot tell where it is; perhaps it is burnt.

MR. JONES. Q. You have been asked why you did not get the receipt signed in the morning, and you state that you did not particularly see what bad been signed. A. Mr. Hart and I entered into the matter in good fifth, and I really did not notice so particularly as I should have done, and I brought it back inadvertently without his receipt to it—I was told something when I came home—the person who drew the form of receipt knew nothing of the matter—I received this note (produced) on 20th November from the same person who brought the other note that has been referred to—Mr. Hart was in the habit of sending his servant to me with different pieces of paper—this is his signature (Read; "Tuesday, 20th November,—Dear Sir,—Have the goodness to let me have, per bearer, 5a, more, together 7s. on account as my being short of small money just to-day—Yours, H. Hart, Castello—send word if seen by you.")—I am quite certain he signed this receipt when he first came in—the barmaid was waiting till he should come in—he did not go into the parlour, and he had nothing to drink; he came directly into my private parlour and signed this receipt before he went

into the public parlour at all—at the time the action of trover was brought against me, the defendant was suing Mr. Hildebrand, and he had possession of the bill—the I.O.U. was submitted to the judge at the County Court.

CHRISTOPHER CUFF . I am registrar of the Westminster County Court—this is the summons in the action of Hart against Merton—I swore the present defendant, Henry Hart, on that occasion—this is a minute of the proceedings of the Court, signed by myself—judgment was given in favour of the defendant on that occasion, that is the present prosecutor—it is not part of my duty to take a minute of the proceedings, but I did take a short memorandum of what took place, immediately afterwards, in consequence of expecting something to arise in future.

MR. SLEIGH. Q. Was the note which you made immediately afterwards, made from your own. independent memory, or from something somebody told you? A. From what I heard myself, without communication with any party.

MR. JONES.Q. Then will you state what the defendant swore on that occasion? A. He swore that he had given 23l. 10s. for the bill, and that Mr. Merton had paid him 20l. back, and no more—he said that 3l. 10s. was left in his hands to enable him to continue the action on the bill—the documents that have been already put in, with the exception of the note, have come from my hands.

COURT. Q. Do you remember what the defendant stated about this paper? A. His utterance is not very distinct—he certainly made many statements—he said at one time that the prosecutor held the money in his hand, and at another time that he put it on the table; that he wrote the receipt expecting to receive the money, and that afterwards Mr. Merton persuaded him to hold the bill, and the money was not paid to him—I don't remember that he made any other statement—he made several statements which I do not remember—I have no note of his stating how Mr. Merton got possession of the paper.

EMMA MERTON . I am sister to the prosecutor and act as his barmaid—I remember the evening Mr. Hart came there—I could not say whether it was 24th October; it was one evening in October—he came between 8 and 9 o'clock—my brother had asked me to tell Mr. Hart when he came in, that he wanted him—I told him that, and he went into the bar parlour—my brother asked me to—fetch the paper from the bar—that was after Mr. Hart came in—it was a paper that my brother bad put a stamp on, and Mr. Hart wrote on the stamp while I was in the parlour—I should know the paper if I saw it—this is it (produced)—I brought it from the bar into the parlour—Mrs. Merton, my sister-in-law, was there, my brother, and myself—after Mr. Hart wrote that, he went into the public parlour, as he usually did—I saw him sign it.

Cross-examined. Q. How long was he in the parlour? A. A very few minutes before I brought the paper to him—I did not hear any conversation between him and my brother previously—as soon as he came into the parlour my brother asked me to fetch the paper—I fetched it and saw Mr. Hart sign it—he had not been there before that evening—I looked at the paper—I could not say all that was on it—I saw Mr. Hart sign it—I saw the writing on the right hand side of it and the other without any signature to it—I saw him sign that; it was put before him—one pen would not write and my brother fetched him another—I did not hear anything pass between them before he put his name to it—I know nothing about the 20l. being paid.

GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months.

NEW COURT.—Thursday, January 31st, 1861.

PRESENT—Mr. Ald. Challis; Sir Henry Muggeridge, Knt. Ald.; Mr. Common Serjeant; and Robert Malcolm Kerr, Esq.

For the case of Jelf, Percival, Preece, and McGregor, tried this day, tee Surrey Cases.

THIRD COURT—Thursday, January 31st, 1861.

PRESENT—Mr. Ald. Condeb; and Robert Malcolm Kerr, Esq.

Before Robert Malcolm Kerr, Esq.

28th January 1861
Reference Numbert18610128-194
VerdictGuilty > unknown; Guilty > unknown; Guilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude; Imprisonment > penal servitude; Imprisonment > penal servitude

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194. THOMAS GRAHAM (22), GEORGE WILLIAMS (17), and EDWARD KINKIN (18) , Robbery with violence on Daniel Bushell, and stealing from him 1 watch and 1 chain, value 21l., his property.

MR. BROCKBURN conducted the Prosecution,

DANIELBUSHELL. I am a rope merchant, and live at Pensbry, in the Walworth-road—on 20th December last, I was going to lunch at my son's brewery in Whit ecbapel—it is my custom to go there almost every day, and I generally pass up Little Alie-street—that is the direct road—I generally wear my coat as it is now, unbuttoned—I have an over-coat—I had a watch with a gold chain across mywaistcoat which could be seen, on 20th December—I generally wear it in that way—the chain was visible—it was u near a quarter to 1 as could be—the prisoner Williams came in front of me, took my watch out of my pocket, caught the chain, and broke it—I caught the chain in my left hand, and this piece (produced) was left behind in my hand, and the watch and the other part of the chain were taken—Williams did not say anything to me before he did this—as soon as he had got away I called "Police!" and "Stop thief!" and then some one tried to put their legs between mine and trip me up—I could not see who that per-son was—Graham then came up and hit me on the ear and I was knocked or kicked down—they then ran away—I have not the slightest doubt as to the identity of Williams and Graham—it was a bright clear day—the value of the watch and chain was about twenty guineas.

Cross-examined by MR. COOPER.Q. When you first gave information of this, you said a man came before you, did you not? A. Yes; I suppose he calls himself a man—this snatching of the watch was not done in an instant—I was rather astonished when it was taken—I had never seen either of these men before to my knowledge.

JAMES WEAKLEY . I am twelve years old, and live at 31, Lambeth-street, Whitechapel—about a quarter to 1 on 20th December I was in Little Alie-street, and saw the prisoner Williams running down the street with a watch-chain hanging over his thumb—I knew him before—he used to be on the hot stones outside a sugar house in Lambeth-street—I have seen him there—I saw the prisoner Kinkin—he was about six yards before Williams, and he ran his hardest—I had seen Kinkin's face before.

Cross-examined. Q. What is your father? A. I have no father—I live with my mother—I don't go to school—I sometimes work at a gun-maker's and sometimes I have a job at a cork-cutter's—I have never been accused of anything and have never been in any trouble at all—the policeman Harvey came after me to come here—I cannot say how many days after this—I think it

was a week—when I saw these men run away, I saw the gentleman who was robbed, in Lambeth-street—I told a carman that I knew the persons, the same day, directly it was done—I saw him speaking to another man about it, and I told him I knew who it was—I was close to Williams—I was bowling my hoop at the time—he did not speak to me—he knew me well enough to speak—I am sure it was Williams, and I am sure it was Kinkin—he passed me six yards before Williams—there were other young men standing about—the street was pretty full—there were no lads the same height as the prisoners; some about the same height as me—the carman was in the street unloading some sugar—there was a lady there, and she asked Mr. Bushell what he had lost.

MR. BROCKBURN. Q. Was there any one immediately round where these prisoners were? A. No.

URIAH HARVEY (Policeman, H 174). I apprehended Williams on 11th January—I told him he would be charged when he got to the station with stealing a watch from Mr. Bushell in Whitechapel—he said, "I know nothing about it"—when he got to the station he said, "I was in Leman-street at the time, buying a pair of boots"—when he was going to the police-court the next morning he stated that he saw the old gentleman knocked under the horse, and he stood with a dog in his arms at the time—I then said, "You know something of the watch, where is it gone?"—he said, "I know nothing else of it, only that it was sold for 7l. 10s."—I asked him where it was sold—he said, "You know as well as I do where we sell them," or words to that effect—I have not found the watch.

Cross-examined. Q. Did he say this to you without your saying anything to him? A. I questioned him—I asked him if he knew anything of it—I do not know that it is contrary to regulations to ask prisoners questions; he knew I was a policeman—I was in private clothes, but he was charged at that time—I did not threaten him that it would be the worse for him if he did not tell me about it—these were simple answers to simple questions—I swear that—I did not take him into a private room and say it would be better for him if he would tell me all—I never held out any promise or threat.

THOMAS HOLBECK . I live at 5, Smith-street, St. George's, and am a carman—on 20th December, about a quarter to 1, I was in Lambeth-street, which joins Little Alie-street—you can see into Little Alie-street—I was at work on a wagon, unloading sugar—I saw the little boy Weakley the same day—I heard a scuffling by my horses' feet and when I turned round I saw Mr. Bushell on his hands and knees, in the act of getting up, and calling "Stop thief!"—Graham was standing alongside of him—he looked me full in the face and then ran away after two others—I did not see the faces of either of the others.

Cross-examined. Q. He looked you so full in the face that you could not mistake him? A. I knew him again when I saw him about a fortnight afterwards—I picked him out among two or three others—I can't say that Weakley spoke to me at all at the time—he was in the habit of being round the wagon sometimes when we were loading—I think I should recollect it if he did—he spoke to me about a fortnight after the event, when the first prisoner was taken—hearing nothing about the robbery for a fortnight I thought it was all gone over—if any one had said to me, on the day of the robbery or a day or two afterwards, "I saw the boys who did it, and what is more I know their names," I think I should have recollected it—when the boy spoke to me about the robbery I tried all I could to find it out.

MR. BROCKBURN. Q. Then it was after what the boy told you, that the second and third prisoners were taken? A. Yes—Graham was taken first—the boy told me that he knew the chap who stole the watch, and I told the policeman Harvey—the boy described Williams to me—he said he should know him again if he saw him—I did not know either of the prisoners before.

COURT. Q. You say you have a perfect recollection of Graham? A. Yes—when I saw him again I swore to him, and I knew he was the same man—I talked to the man who was in the cart with me of the occurrence the same day—I was then standing on the wagon—when we had unloaded it I went away from the place altogether—there was a woman came up and kicked up a noise about it—that was while Mr. Bushell was going down the street and coming back again—she said we might have stopped the thieves; and I said to my mate we could not have got out of the wagon—there were three or four women there when they heard Mr. Bushel! had been robbed—I heard one of them talking very loud—she is not here.

THOMAS LOWNDES . I live at 39, Lambeth-street, and am a gun-maker—on 20th December, about a quarter to 1, I was going from my dinner to my employment, and saw Mr. Bushell knocked down in Lambeth-street, just at the mouth of A lie-street, just at the corner—I met Kinkin, running as hard as he could run—I met him full face as he passed me.

Cross-examined. Q. Had you ever seen him before? A. Not to my knowledge—he was running fast past me—my attention was called to this afterwards, on last Thursday week—I was called out of my master's factory by a policeman, and he asked me if I could tell the parties again, and asked me to come to the police-station, and I went expecting to see the man—I saw some men there—they were not all dressed alike—I can't say whether all the other men had whiskers, I think they had, but I don't know—I can't swear whether they had or not—I can't say whether one of them had light hair.

MR. BROCKBURN. Q. You picked Kinkin out from those two men, do you think you would know those two men again? A. If they bad the same dress on.

COURT. Q. Had you any difficulty in picking him out? A. No; I recognised him in an instant—I saw Mr. Bushell as I was coming up the street, and saw one of them strike him, and as soon as he came to the ground they all ran away, the same way as Kinkin was going—I did not meet all three of them—it was so momentary that I really did not know what was the matter till Mr. Bushell got up and ran a fewyards, and then he said that he had lost his watch.

EDWARD MARKHAM . I live in Tenter-street—on Saturday, 8th January last, I went with a friend to a concert hall, and then went to a house No. 2, Little Turner-street, Commercial-road, with a girl—I saw the prisoner Kinkin there—he spoke to me first, and gave me a cigar and a glass of ale—I sat down with him, and he got taxing me whether I was a thief—he asked me if I was a gollof—I found out afterwards that means "a thief"—I told him "No"—he said, "I know a party who was in the steel with you," I have since ascertained that that means "Holloway prison," and a girl who was there said she knew I was—Kinkin then said to me, "I have just come from Plymouth; I have been out of the way, as I was concerned in a robbery in Whitechapel, for knocking an old gentleman down for his watch "—he also said that Graham and Williams were remanded till Tuesday:—he mentioned their names—he said that all he was frightened of was Deible

and Dunnaway, as he was frightened they would apprehend him—I went to the police-station on the Sunday afternoon—they gave me directions where Deible lived, and I saw him afterwards.

Cross-examined. Q. You have been in Holloway, have you not? A. No; I was never taken up for anything—this was a brothel that I was in—I am a bricklayer and plasterer by trade—I am in work now—I am always in work—I am with my father—he is not the only person I have been with—I don't frequent concerts much—I have never acted as spy for the police—I found a party out for Deible, at least I gave him the party's address—he asked me if I knew the party, and I said I did—it was an affiliation case—I was not the father of the child—I swear that—I have done nothing else for Deible besides that—I did not seek after some thieves for him some time ago—I have never done anything for Dunnaway—Kinkin's face is familiar to me—I had this conversation with him at once.

Q. You said you did not know what a gollof meant, but you answered him you were not, you said, "No," directly, how came you to say "No," when you did not know the meaning of the word? A. Because I found it out—I knew what that word meant—I knew what gollof meant—I have not been called gollof by other men—I have heard the word mentioned, but not to me—I have heard it mentioned by the police, by nobody else—I knew perfectly well what it meant—I did not hold no my finger or make any sign meaning "Yes," in answer to his question—I told him "No"—I know a person named Miss Haddon—(She was called into Court)—I say upon my oath, in her presence, that I have not had three months in Holloway.

COURT. Q. Is that the young woman you went to the house with? A. No.

MR. COOPER. Q. Will you swear you have not had three months in Holloway? A. I will; I don't know where Holloway prison is.

MR. BROCKBURN. Q. Was this case you speak of about where the father of the child lived, in the same street, and you knew the address? A. Yes; there is not the slightest foundation for saying I have been in Holloway prison.

COURT. Q. Where is this concert hall? A. In Wellclose-square—I went there with a young man named Donovan, a friend of mine—we went there for amusement—I met the girl at the concert room—it is frequented by those kind of girls—it was after the concert that I went to this house—I did not expect to see Kinkin there—I had no communication with the police about Kinkin, before going there—I told Deible on the Sunday evening about the conversation I had with Kinkin—I went to the concert on Saturday evening, and staid in the brothel till Sunday morning.

JOSEPH DENDY . I am inspector of the H division of police—I know the last witness, and know his father to be a respectable man—I was at the police-station on Thursday, 17th January, when the prisoner Kinkin was brought in—on the same day Captain Harrison, the assistant commissioner of police, came in and spoke to the prisoner—after he was gone Kinkin said, "He is very much like the old gentleman that was robbed; I thought he would have picked me out"—nothing was said before that about Mr. Bushell being robbed.

Cross-examined. Q. Is not Capital Harrison a much larger man altogether than Mr. Bushell; could you mistake one for the other? A. He is something like him at first sight—he is ladler and stouter—he has grey hair similar to Mr. Bushell.

JOSEPH DEIBLE (Policeman, H 195) I took the prisoner Kinkin into custody.

COURT. Q. Had you any conversation with the witness Markham? A. On the Sunday evening, not till then—I had told him nothing at all about this robbery—he was the first to give me information—I had never employed him before—on one occasion there was a warrant sent up from Yorkshire against a person who was living a few doors from this young man, on the Tenter-ground, and I said to him, "There is a man lives near you who I want, I wish you would let me know when he is in," and he came round to the station and told me—I had a warrant to execute.

MR. COOPER. Q. Has that man Markham ever been in Holloway prison? A. Never; for nine years I have known him to be a highly respectable young man.

GRAHAM— GUILTY .*†— Four Years' Penal Servitude.

WILLIAMS— GUILTY .**†— Six Years' Penal Servitude.


Kinkin was further charged with having been before convicted.

PORTER WILLIAM DUNNAWAY (Policeman, H 129). I produce a certificate (Read: "Middlesex Sessions, Monday, 15th February, 1858, Edward Kin-kin, Convicted on his own confession of stealing a watch from the person—Confined 12 Months")—that applies to the prisoner Kinkin.

GUILTY.— Eight Years' Penal Servitude.


Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

28th January 1861
Reference Numbert18610128-195
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceNo Punishment > sentence respited

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195. JEREMIAH McCARTHY(11) , Uunlawfully obtaining 1/4 lb. of rice and 1 lb. of plums, value 8d., the property of Edward Good, by false pretences, to which he

PLEADED GUILTY .*— Judgment respited.

Before Mr. Recorder.

28th January 1861
Reference Numbert18610128-196
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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196. GEORGE ARMSTRONG(30) , Feloniously killing and slaying Caroline Mortlock.

MR. POLAND conducted the Prosecution.

HARRIET MORTLOCK . My mother was a widow, and lived at 21, Nelson-street, Victoria-dock-road—she was living there on 31st December—her name was Caroline—the prisoner lodged at our house with his wife—there were other lodgers—the prisoner came home on Monday night, 31st December, from 6 o'clock to half-past—he was in drink—he came into the kitchen—the other lodgers were there—he sent out for a pot of ale—I fetched it—my mother was then in the front parlour, locked in the room—after I had fetched the ale the prisoner drank some of it—I do not know what he did after that—I went out of the kitchen soon, and went to where my mother was—the prisoner kept asking for mother—she heard him but did not answer him—she let me in, and after I was in I locked the door again—while I was inside the room with my mother the prisoner came to the door and knocked several times—neither of us answered him—after some time he said he should burst the door open if mother did not open it—my mother said that if he did he should pay for it—the prisoner swore at her—he then burst the door open, and struck her with his fist over the right eye—it was a very serious blow—it did not knock her down—I saw blood; she wiped it off with her apron—upon the blow being struck I rushed off the sofa between my mother and the prisoner—when the blow was struck there was no one in the room but myself and my mother—I called for two young men

Taylor and Thornton, two of the lodgers, and they came and took him out of the parlour—after that my mother left the room almost directly, and walked into the kitchen—the prisoner was there—he used some very foul language, and said what was in his room was his—my mother said, No, they were hers—she was excited, through the prisoner's language, and one thing and the other—she said she would go out and fetch some one to put a stop to it and she ran out of the kitchen straight into the parlour—after she had gone I heard her fall—the prisoner remained in the kitchen—I went into the parlour directly I heard the fall—I found my mother on the ground, lying flat on her face—I tried to raise her—I found she was insensible—I could not raise her; she was too heavy; she never spoke to me—I never saw her breathing.

COURT.Q. Was she dead at the time? A. Yes.

MR. POLAND.Q. Between the time when the door was forced open and the time you found your mother lying in that way, what time had elapsed? A. As near as I can tell it was from five to ten minutes, but not longer, if so long—I called for one of the lodgers to come and help her on to the sofa, and a doctor was sent for directly—after I saw my mother in that state I went into the kitchen to the prisoner and told him he had killed mother—he said, "Have I, I hope not"—when the doctor came the prisoner was given in custody—my mother was 51 years old, I think—she had pretty good health—she had been out with me in the afternoon.

Cross-examined by MR. TINDAL ATKINSON.Q. Then your mother has had no regular attendant lately? A. No—the prisoner works at some large iron works in the neighbourhood—he had lived in our house fifteen months, I think, and his wife with him—he is a very quiet man when sober—he was in drink this day—I do not know whether he was was very much so—I am quite sure he struck my mother on the right eye—I am quite sure he struck her—I was the only one there—I was rather frightened at the door being broken open—my mother had not been in the kitchen above two or three minutes—it was from five to ten minutes as near as I could guess from the blow to her death—it was not a quarter of an hour—I went by the time the men came in to their tea—when I went into the room I saw a concertina on the floor—it was close to where my mother was lying, about the length of my finger from the right side of her head, and it was the left eye that was wounded—if I said just how it was the right eye it was a mistake—when I had left the room previously the concertina was on the drawers; I think it must have been brushed off the drawers by her sleeve—I think Taylor was the first person who came in—I remember a glass of water being brought—I do not remember my mother drinking any of it—I think Thornton gave it her—I was in a state of great fright—I did not know what was going on.

MR. POLAND. Q. Are you sure you saw the blood after the blow was given? A. I am—I am sure the concertina was not on the floor when I left the room.

GEORGE TAYLOR . I lodged with Mrs. Mortlock, at 21, Nelson-street—I remember the prisoner coming home on New Year's eve—he seemed to be very drunk—he said it was New Year's eve, he had 2s. or 3s. in his pocket, and would have a pot of six ale, and he called for the deceased to come and fetch it—she did not answer—he said perhaps Harriet would—she came in—he gave her a shilling and she fetched it—the deceased was in the parlour—the prisoner said he would go and ask her for his Christmas-box, for he had never got it yet—he went and knocked at the door—she never answered—the prisoner's wife called to him from upstairs, and he went up—the deceased

then came out of the parlour into the kitchen; after staying some time, hearing the prisoner coming downstairs again she went into the parlour again and locked the door—the prisoner went and knocked and told her to open the door—she did not answer—I heard no more till the deceased called me and told me to take the prisoner out—I went in and saw him standing with his hand half open—the deceased was in the middle of the room and her daughter by her side—I persuaded him to come out, and he came into the kitchen—his wife told him to go upstairs and not make a fool and laughing-stock of himself there, and he went to the front door—the deceased then came into the kitchen and said she would not stand it any longer—the prisoner came in and said to her, "Have I done anything to you that you should lock the door in my face, a thing your ever did before, when I was drunk or sober; have you any spite to me that you should do so?"—she said, "No, my lad, but when you are drunk I am frightened"—a few more words passed—the prisoner said that every cup and saucer he took his tea in was his own—the deceased then said she would not have it any longer, she would go and fetch some one who should put him out—she left the prisoner standing in the kitchen and went into the parlour and there fell—the daughter followed her and called to me to come in—I went in and saw the deceased lying on the floor with her head on the concertina—I picked her up and saw she had received a blow in the eye—blood was beginning to flow—I laid her on the sofa, got a glass of water, and wiped her eye—I did not know she was dead till two or three more came in—I put the water to her lips—she just gasped at it—when she was in the kitchen she seemed excited and frightened.

Cross-examined. Q. How long have you known the prisoner? A. About five months—he is a very quiet man when sober—I think it was not above a minute from the time of the deceased coming into the kitchen to my hearing the fall—when I went into the room, I found her head on the concertina; the corner of the concertina was in the left eye—the blood was just beginning to string away from the eye—he said, "Harriet, have I ever done any harm to you or your mother?"—she said, "No, nothing; but my mother has fallen down on the concertina and killed himself."

JOHN THOBNTON . I lodge at 21, Nelson-street—I remember the prisoner coming home the worse for liquor—I was afterwards called into the parlour to take him out—I took him into the kitchen—Mrs. Mortlock afterwards came there, and they had a few words—the prisoner asked her why she had shut the door in his face, which she had never done before—she said she would not if he was sober, but when he was drunk she was afraid, for it was a thing she was never brought up to—there were some words between them—after that I saw Mrs. Mortlock leave the kitchen—she went into the parlour, and afterwards I was called—I saw her in Taylor's arms—he had taken her up.

Cross-examined. Q. Did you take the deceased out of Taylor's arms? A. I assisted Taylor to put her on the sofa—I saw the concertina on the floor at the time I went in—I went for some water—I had to go to the kitchen for that—I found her still on the sofa when I came back—I bathed her eye with the water—I gave her a glass of water—I put it to her mouth, and she took a little sip of it, but not much, a very small quantity—she seemed to have some power in her lips to take the water—I fetched a second glass of water—it was the second glass that she partook of—I should say it would take me about two minutes or so to get the water—I made all the haste I could—the first glass of water that I went for, I gave

to Taylor—I was perhaps about five minutes in going for the second—Taylor bathed her eye—he did not give me the same cup to get the water in, I got another one—I heard the young woman give an account of how her mother came by her death—when I first came into the parlour after Taylor called me, I said to the daughter, "What has done that?"—she said, "Oh John, my mother has fallen down, and cut her face on the concertina"—I recollect the prisoner saying "I have not done it"—the young person said, "I know that you have not"—the prisoner said, "I would not hurt her nor her mother"—I have known the prisoner as a fellow-lodger—ever since I have known him, his character has been that of a quiet kindly-disposed man—I never saw anything cruel in his conduct.

EDWARD JOHN MORRIS . I am a surgeon of Barking-road—on the night of 31st December, I was sent for to 21, Nelson-street—I found Mrs. Mortlock on the sofa dead—that was about twenty minutes past 8—I examined her, and found a severe contused wound over the left eye, and a scratch over the right eyebrow, and some recent marks of bruises about the arms; no other external appearances—I made a post mortem examination on 2nd January, in conjunction with Mr. Taylor—on dissecting the scalp, we found some extravasated blood over the entire portion of the left temporal muscle, corresponding to the seat of injury, the mark over the left eyebrow—on opening the head, I found the membranes of the brain much injected, and the convolutions much congested; the ventricles were gorged with sanguino-serous fluid in clots—the entire surface of the brain, and also the base of the brain, was covered with clots of blood—there was no other appearance in the head—the other portions of the body were healthy—the liver was slightly enlarged, and there was some gall stone in the gall bladder—the mark over the left eye was a contused wound—it was a slight wound—the skin was very slightly broken in five or six places—I should say that a blow from a man's fist would have produced it—I believe the cause of death to be extravasation of blood within and around the brain—taking into consideration the great excitement the woman was under, I believe that a slight blow would cause the mischief that I saw—insensibility might come on within a few minutes after the blow was struck—excitement after the blow would hasten the insensibility, supposing the injury to have been caused by the blow.

Cross-examined. Q. That is, in other words, if the blood had set in to the brain, the excitement would be the predisposing cause of that, and continue as long as it lasted? A. Of course excitement would tend to increase the tendency of blood-vessels to rupture—I do not attribute the death to the scratch over the right eyebrow—I think that had nothing whatever to do with it—I have listened attentively to the evidence given by the two last witnesses—I heard what was said about the concertina, that the woman was discovered with her left eye resting on it—I should say that the appearance I saw, was caused more by a blunt object than by a concertina—what I saw was more like the blow of a fist—I would not take upon myself to say it was impossible for the concertina to have inflicted what I saw—I should not attribute the death to the excitement alone; it might have been caused by great excitement, there was a possibility of it—you can distinguish a laceration of the brain or the membranes by excitement, and by a violent blow—I know what is understood by a counter-stroke—a violent blow given on the front of the head will very often cause death by a rupture at the back—you generally, where death is caused by over-excitement, find the appearances which I found on this person; a general suffusion of the

surface of the brain, and also clots at the base—I could not say in this case that death was more consistent with excitement than with the blow—she might become insensible from excitement itself, without the blow.

MR. POLAND. Q. In your judgment, supposing she was in a good state of health that day, would mere excitement, without a blow, produce insensibility? A. I should say not—it would be more likely to do so after a blow.

COURT. Q. I suppose what was wrong with the liver and gall bladder, had nothing to do with her death? A. Nothing.

CHARLES GIBSON TAYLOR . I am a surgeon at Stratford—I was present at the post mortem examination—I perfectly agree with Mr. Morris as to the state of the brain—in my judgment, the cause of death was the effusion of serum and blood in and upon the substance and surface of the brain, pressure on and within the brain—I think the excitement and the blow together would produce the appearance I saw; but I do not consider that the violence of the blow, as evidenced by the external appearance, would account for the fatal appearance exhibited inside the brain—I do not think the blow was sufficiently violent to produce the fatal lesion—I am not speaking from the mark of the blow, but from the gravity of the internal lesion compared with the evidence of violence—excitement very probably caused it—excitement produced by a quarrel would occasion the appearances I saw—a blow would certainly aggravate the mischief.

COURT.Q. What sort of woman was the deceased? A. A stout well formed well nourished woman.

Cross-examined. Q. You think that death was caused by excitement operating on the vessels of the brain? A. I say that death was caused by the effusion upon and into the brain, but I must be pardoned speaking positively as to the cause of that—I have heard the evidence—I do not think that a fall upon a concertina would account for the external appearances I saw—I would not say it was impossible, but very improbable in my opinion.


28th January 1861
Reference Numbert18610128-197
VerdictGuilty > with recommendation
SentenceNo Punishment > sentence respited

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197. SARAH LANE(18) , Embezzling the sums of 8d., 2d. and 2d. which she had received on account of William Fox, her master.

MR. HAWTHORNE conducted the Prosecution.

ISABELLA FOX . I am the wife of William Fox, of Walthamstow, a farmer and dairyman—the prisoner was in our employment as a domestic servant, for between two and three years—it was part of her duty to take milk round to our customers, to receive payment for it, and to account to me for it as soon as she received it—Mr. Charles Dabbs was one of our customers—milk was supplied to him from us, up to the 8th of this month, and sent to him by the prisoner—I have very frequently received money from the prisoner for milk supplied to Mr. Dabbs—a considerable quantity of milk has been supplied by us through the course of the summer—we have been paid for all, except one pint a-day, for the morning's milk, and I never received a farthing of that for the whole twelve months—2d. is the price of a pint of milk—Robert Hawkins was a customer of ours, we supplied him with milk by the hands of the prisoner—on 30th December last, the prisoner did not pay me 8d. on his account—Charles Braham was also a customer of ours, and was supplied by the prisoner with milk on our account—on 30th December last, the prisoner paid me 8d. which she had received from Braham.

ROBERT HAWKINS . I live at Walthamstow—the prisoner supplied us

with milk from Fox's dairy—we have always paid for the milk as we have had it—she has always been paid at the time, in the morning and afternoon—the afternoon milk might have been left till the next morning, but she has always been paid then; I have paid her every day—the prisoner left the employment of Fox on 15th or 16th of this month—on Wednesday morning, the 15th, I paid her a penny myself; that was the day before she left.

Cross-examined by MR. DICKIE. Q. Did this girl always bring the milk to you? A. Always; no one else ever brought it to my knowledge—I did not always take in the milk myself; my wife or children frequently took it—they did not pay the money generally, I never knew them do so—I do not always pay the money—my wife has generally taken the milk; the morning milk was always paid for, without my children took it in, and then my wife perhaps would pay in the afternoon—I paid the prisoner a penny myself on Wednesday, the 15th, that was on the day before she left—I am quite sure of that.

MR. HAWTHORNE.Q. Are you quite certain you paid her that penny yourself on the Wednesday? A. Yes; it was for the morning milk, half a pint—I did not see her in the afternoon.

CHARLES BRAHAM . I reside at Walthamstow—I have been supplied with milk from Fox's dairy for about nine months I should think; brought by the prisoner—it was paid for principally by me, weekly and fortnightly—on 30th December last, I made a payment myself to the prisoner of 8d.

Cross-examined. Q. What time of the day was that? A. In the morning, between nine and ten—I paid the whole of the amounts mentioned in this bill, with the exception of about seven, and I can say for certain that I paid this 8d. on the particular day, from the circumstance of having spoken to my wife about giving the prisoner a Christmas-box—a bill was left for this amount some days afterwards, I think on the Friday week—I had made no note of the payment of this 8d.—I did not make any payment to the prisoner subsequent to the 30th of December.

CHARLES DABBS . I am an innkeeper at Walthamstow—the prisoner has supplied me with milk from Fox's dairy for nearly a year and a half—we paid for it every day or next morning—I myself have paid her five times out of six—I remember paying her on the Monday before she left—I paid her 2d. on that occasion.

Cross-examined. Q. When were you spoken to about this case? A. It was found out by my sending in my bill for beer—two days never passed without my paying the prisoner—I have dealt with Mr. Fox for seven years—I told the prisoner to ask for the money if any was left, and I paid it myself—I have frequently asked her what there was left, and have paid her in the morning—it was in the morning part of the Monday that I paid her the 8d.—I do not recollect anyone but the prisoner bringing milk for the last twelve months.

ISABELLA FOX (re-examined.) The prisoner left my service a week last Wednesday—she did not on the Tuesday pay me a penny which she had received from Mr. Hawkins, or 2d. received from Mr. Dabbs on the Monday, or 8d. from Mr. Braham—on 30th December, she told me that there was 2d. worth left at Mr. Dabbs, and it was booked to him—the amount she gave me as owing to Mr. Hawkins, was 1l. 1s. 11d.—she did not tell me the amount Mr. Dabbs owed, but she used to call it over and I booked it to him—I frequently asked her if he had paid, and she always replied "No"—I also frequently asked her if Mr. Braham had paid, and she always said "No"

—I said to her several times, "There are so many weeks against Mr. Braham, it is very strange he does not pay"—she always replied, "He has not paid yet, but there will be a time when he will pay."

Cross-examined. Q. Do you keep any books? A. Yes, they are here—I kept them regularly at the time the prisoner was in my service—this book I kept regularly myself, since she was committed—I have copied this into another book which is here—I merely copied it because I had to give the accounts in at the police-court, and I did not like to give in such an old book as that—I took this book to the Court—they asked me there if I had copied it from another, I said "Yes," and they wished me to produce the other at the next examination, which I did—I did not make the entries on each day, generally once a week—the prisoner did pay me some money on the days to which my attention has been called, but I did not book it till the end of the week—I did not keep an account of all the cash I received from each party, but they had their milk so regularly that you must be troubled with a very short memory indeed if you could not recollect what they had for a week—the prisoner was with me between two and three years—at first I paid her 1s. 6d. a week, and then 2s.—she slept at home part of the time—no one else took out milk for the last twelve months—she was not paid regularly; she used to let it go on sometimes for three weeks, or four or five occasionally—I gave it her as she wanted it—on one occasion 10s. was due to her and I asked her if she wanted it, and she said "No," and I gave her 5s. then and the remainder the next week; she always had it when she wanted it—I used to make my books up every Monday—I did it from memory.

MR. HAWTHORNE.Q. Do you distinctly remember on the day before she left that she did not pay you a penny from Hawkins? A. Yes—she has not paid me anything from Hawkins since August last, nor from Braham since June, nor from Dabbs for twelve months.

MR. DICKIE. Q. Have you ever asked the prisoner to go over that book with you? A. No; I never saw her after she left my house, on the evening when she ran away, until she was taken in custody.

GUILTY .— Recommended to mercy by the Jury on account of her youth and the hose manner in which the prosecutrix's books were kept. The prosecutrix a also recommended her to mercy.—Judgment respited.

28th January 1861
Reference Numbert18610128-198
VerdictGuilty > with recommendation

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198. JAMES EDWARD WARD(39) , Stealing 4 metal measures, the property of Richard Norden; 2 metal measures, the property of Frederick Webb; and 2 metal measures, the property of Jane Cohn. Second Count, feloniously receiving the same.

MR. COOPER conducted the Prosecution.

GEORGE PAGE (Policeman, K 55). I am stationed at West Ham—on the night of 26th December from information I received I went with policeman Collins to a house in North Woolwich-road, West Ham—Collins knocked, and we waited two hours before we were admitted—the door was then opened by a female, with her son as I am informed, and on entering we found the prisoner lying on a bed in the back room, and Mrs. Ward lying on a bed in the front room—the prisoner appeared drunk; he staggered about very much—I then went down to his shed in the back yard and found these eleven pewter pots (produced) in a half-bushel basket—here are names on all of them, and some are quite new—I looked in the back room and found this quart pot (produced) under some rags, and this pint pot with Richardson's name on it (produced) in the shop—I also found a quantity of metal which has since been given up to the prisoner.

Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE.Q. Were there any other policemen there with you? A. Two others previous to my going, Phillips and Tapp—they are not here—three of us went in together, and one got a pair of steps from the yard of the adjoining house and got over into the yard in which the pots were found—it is a fence eight or ten feet high—I did not see him get over, but I let him in at the back door—I went through the next house with him, found the steps in the yard, and made use of them—I then returned again, leaving him at the back, and leaving the steps there—there is a street at the back, but it is some distance for persons to come that way, and they would have to get over a great many walls—I had heard previously that the prisoner had been in town and had returned about 1—it was Boxing-night—the prisoner's wife did not move while I was there—I did not touch her.

MR. COOPER.Q. What is behind the house? A. Yards; the workshop is built over the shed, and forms a square as you enter—the shed door was open.

RICHARD NORTHERN . I keep the Bell and Anchor public-house, Victoria Docks, West Ham—I missed a great quantity of quart and pint pots—I succeeded Mr. Richardson, and three of these pots produced bear his name, and one my name—when pots are worn out I send them to the pewterer's to be exchanged for new ones.

Cross-examined. Q. How long is it since you have had any of these four pots on your premises? A. I cannot say, but this one with my name is a new one, and was only made last June, I think.

MR. COOPER.Q. How far does the prisoner live from you? A. Half a mile—I used to deal with him, and have paid him several little accounts for what he has done for me—he made me some tin pint pots to spare the pewter ones.

FREDERICK WEBB . I keep the Custom House Hotel, Victoria Docks; nearly a mile from where the prisoner lives—I missed some pots—here are two here with my name on them which I only had home on the Saturday before Christmas—these have never been cleaned; they have never had any sand on them.

THOMAS COHN . I live with my mother at the Black Lion Inn, Plaistow—I have missed some pots, and find two of them here, but cannot say when I missed them—they have been in wear some time.

The prisoner received, a very excellent character.

GUILTY on the Second Count.—He was strongly recommended to mercy by the Jury, but the officer Page stated that 700 or 800 pots had been stolen, within a short walk of the prisoners house; that 115 lbs. of melted metal was found there; and that two persons had been followed carrying a bag from a beershop to the prisoner's house.— Confined Nine Months.


Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

28th January 1861
Reference Numbert18610128-199
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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199. WILLIAM EDWARDS(61) , Indecently assaulting Sarah Elizabeth Jones and Mary Maria Dobbs.

MESSRS. SLEIGH and ORRIDGE conducted the Prosecution, and MR. RIBTON the Defence.

The prisoner received an excellent character. NOT GUILTY .

Before Mr. Justice Willes.

28th January 1861
Reference Numbert18610128-200
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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200. JAMES SHELTON(32) , (an Artilleryman), Stealing 1 envelope and 6 postage stamps, value 6d., and 1 likeness and case, value 2s. 6d., the property of William Rees.

MR. CLERK conducted the Prosecution.

WILLIAM BEGS . I am a corporal in the Royal Artillery—on 7th November I made up a letter into which I put a photographic drawing and case—I addressed it "Mrs. J. Roberts, W. Williams', Esq., Langions Castle, Monmouthshire"—I put six penny stamps on it and posted it myself at a quarter to 10 in the morning, at the Royal Artillery post-office in the barracks at Woolwich—I made some inquiries with regard to that letter, and on 17th or 18th December this photographic case (produced) was shown me by sergeant-major Osborn—it is the one I enclosed in the letter—my likeness was in it.

Prisoner. Q. Did not the party you bought it of say that it was not the case? A. No—I bought it of corporal Quinn—he is not here; he has nothing to do with it—he said that if this was not it, it was a fac-simile of it—he said that he would not swear to it, but the one he sold me was the same shape and the same make.

JOHN OSBORN . I am sergeant-major to the garrison, Royal Artillery—there is a post-office in the garrison which is under the charge of George Groves, a sergeant—on 17th December I received information that the prisoner was in custody, and went to his house at 2, St. James's-place, Woolwich, between 6 and 7 in the evening—I did not know what rooms he occupied—I went into two rooms on the ground floor—his wife came in while I was there—I searched the house, and in a clothes-box in the front room found these three likeness cases and several other articles which I did not bring away—Rees selected one of them as his—I also found in a piece of blue paper twenty-four postage stamps which all appeared to have been put on and taken off again—one of them has a piece of paper adhering to it now, and ten I found in a black envelope, one of which appears to have been taken off and re-gummed—I found some sealing-wax and a button with a crown on it in the clock-case—there is a piece knocked out of it, which corresponds with the seal on the bag—the bag is sealed when it is sent down from the office, but not with a similar seal to the button—I find the impression on both is three guns, but one is raised and the other is sunk, and this button has been knocked about—this is the Royal Artillery seal—the prisoner was taken in custody before I heard anything about it.

GEORGE GROVES . I am a sergeant of the Royal Artillery—the post-office of the garrison is under my charge—it is not under the charge of the Post Master General—letters are sent from the garrison to the post-office in the town four times a-day: half-past 8. a quarter to 12, half-past 3, and a quarter-past 9—the prisoner was employed in November last as a messenger to carry the bag from the garrison to the town, but he did not go all the four journeys; only the quarter to 12 and half-past 3—he always went those two—if a letter was posted at half-past 10 at the garrison post-office, it would go to the town by the quarter to 12 bag—when letters are sent from the garrison they are tied in a bundle, put into a bag, and sealed—we have six or seven bags, and as one comes up the other goes down—they are similar to this one—I recollect that the prisoner took the bag for the quarter to 12 delivery down to the town—it was delivered to him to seal and was sealed in my office with the ordinance seal—it was his duty to deliver it to the post-master at Woolwich—on 17th December I went with sergeant Osborn to the prisoner's house and saw the button found and the stamps—the button was found in a small box on the mantlepiece—the impression on it is three guns.

Prisoner. Q. Did you see me shift the seal from the bags and use the button to make the seal? A. No; I did not see you break open the bag.

COURT. Q. Had the bag that went out on that day been used before on several occasions? A. Yes, and afterwards during the intervening period from then till 17th December—the bag goes on direct to the General Post-office, London, and comes back to me from time to time—as it goes up the other comes down—I cannot say whether this is the bag that went out on 7th November.

JEMIMA ROBERTS . I am a widow and have lived at Mr. Williams', Langions Castle, near Newport, Monmouthshire, for twenty-four years—Rees is my nephew, and I have been in the habit of receiving letters from him—I received no letter from him in November containing a photographic likeness in a morocco case.

JURY to WILLIAM REES. Q. Have you any particular mark on that case? A. Yes, it was slightly torn on the back here before I sent it away and I can swear to it without any doubt.

Prisoner's Defence. There are a great many likeness-cases alike; there is no proof that I opened the bag or took anything out; a small scratch on the case might happen in packing it up. I purchased the case before I went to the Crimea and have had it ever since.

GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months.

Before Mr. Recorder.

28th January 1861
Reference Numbert18610128-201
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty
SentenceMiscellaneous > sureties

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201. ELIZA HEDGCOCK (30) , Unlawfully and wilfully neglecting to supply her infant with proper food, whereby its life was endangered. Second Count, unlawfully deserting said infant, and leaving it in an open public place, whereby its life was endangered. Third Count, unlawfully neglecting to provide for said infant, whereby its health was likely to be permanently injured. Fourth Count, exposing said infant in a public place. Fifth, sixth, and seventh Counts, charging the exposure and desertion with intent to kill and murder.

The prisoner PLEADED GUILTY to the first four Counts, and MR. LAWBENCI for the prosecutor offered no evidence upon the others. The prisoner received an excellent character.— To enter into her own recognizances to appear and receive judgment when called upon.

28th January 1861
Reference Numbert18610128-202
VerdictGuilty > with recommendation

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202. MARIA CLARK(30) , Stealing a shift, value 1s., the property of Emma Brooker.

EMMA BROOKER . I lodge at No 7, Warren-lane, Walworth—the prisoner lodged in the same house—on the evening of Friday, 4th January, I had a chemise—I laid it on the window-ledge and told the landlady to wash it—I went out about 2 o'clock in the afternoon, leaving it there—I returned between 10 and 11, it was then gone—this is it (produced)—there is some of my own work on it—the prisoner was in the house when I went away.

Prisoner. Q. How many more were in the house? A. A great many more—there were a good many lodgers in the house, I expect about eighteen.

MARY ANN TIPPING . I am the wife of Frederick Tipping, of Union-buildings, Walworth—on Friday evening, 4th January, between 7 and 8 o'clock, the prisoner came to me with a little child, and a chemise in an apron—I bought the chemise—I gave her 8d. for it—a young woman came next day and inquired about it, and I gave it up to the policeman.

Prisoner. I have no child, and I had not been in the place on the Friday; she said before the magistrate that she could not swear whether it was me or not.

Witness. When the policeman brought her it was between light and dark, and I was not sure, but when I came to see her in the light I said she was the same person.

ANN WHITTHAM . I am a married woman, and live, at Walworth—on 4th January I met the prisoner—she asked me if I could tell her where the gardens were—I said I was going there, and I showed her where Mrs. Tip-ping's house was—I had never seen her before—she had a little boy with her, a very small child—it was between 7 and 8 o'clock in the evening.

Prisoner. Q. Did you see me sell anything? A. No; I saw you with a parcel, but I did not see you sell anything.

CHARLES PICKLE . (Policeman, R 89). I took the prisoner into custody, and received this chemise from Mrs. Tipping.

Prisoner's Defence. I am innocent of it.

GUILTY .—Recommended to mercy.— Confined Two Months.

28th January 1861
Reference Numbert18610128-203
VerdictGuilty > with recommendation

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203. GEORGE MAY(26) , Killing and slaying James Morris Knight.

MR. THOMPSON conducted the Prosecution.

ROBERT ELLIOT . I am regiment sergeant-major of the military train, second battalion, stationed at Walworth—I knew the deceased James Morris Knight—he was a very well-behaved man—the prisoner belonged to the same troop—I cannot tell when he left—I first heard of his leaving between half-past 2 and a quarter to 3.

WILLIAM WELCH . I am a private in the same troop as the prisoner and the deceased—on Christmas-day last, about half-past 2 o'clock in the after-noon, I was standing near the cook-house, and I heard a man crying, "Stop! stop!"—I did not know whose voice it was—I am not aware of the man's name—when I looked out, I saw the prisoner and Knight struggling—I observed them for about two minutes—they were in grip of one another—after they ceased struggling Knight broke away from him and ran by the side of the hatches, and May ran after him—he overtook him at the corner of one of the hatches, and struck him under the right ear with his right fist—Knight fell on his left temple, and May fell over him—May got up—he did not strike Knight when he was down—he walked between one of the hatches—I picked up the stone that Knight fell on—I have not got it here—it was about the size of an egg—I assisted in carrying him to the hospital—at that time there was blood flowing from his left temple—I picked Knight up instantly after the prisoner left—he was insensible then—he did not move—the prisoner struck him with all the weight of his body—his temple fell on the stone.

ISAAC PAYNE . I am a private in the same troop—on Christmas-day, between 2 and 3, I saw this disturbance—I came out of the rear and saw May and Knight fighting—they were fighting in the ordinary way in which men fight, squaring at each other—May knocked Knight down with a blow of his fist—Knight was running away, and he picked up a stone and flung it at May, and May ran after him and knocked him down again—the stone did not hit May—the prisoner got up again and ran away, and when he got to the corner of the rear May hit him under the right ear—that was the second time he ran after him—he knocked him down and he laid there two or three minutes—Welch came and picked him up, and he was taken to the hospital.

Prisoner. Q. You never saw me run after the man twice, did you? A, Yes; I saw him heave stones at you.

COURT.Q. Are you sure he knocked him down twice? A. Yes—I told that to the justices and coroner.

ALEXANDER M'ARTHUR . I am medical officer in the military train at Woolwich—on Christmas day-last I was called to attend Knight—I first saw him about thirty-five minutes after 3, at the hospital—he was then labouring under symptoms of concussion of the brain—I attended him up to his death, which was at five minutes past 5 that same afternoon, two hours and a quarter after it happened—he was perfectly insensible when I saw him, and he never rallied—I used everything I thought likely to produce re-action—I found an abrasion of the skin, extending from the sixth rib to the hip on the left side, and a scratch on the left temple over the left eye, about an inch long—I made a post mortem examination and found a fracture extending from the seat of the external wound, which fractured the frontal bone passing downwards to the base of the scull and extending up to the right temporal bone, terminating opposite the right ear—there was extravasation of blood at the base of the brain—I believe that was the cause of death—I believe the severe shock the brain sustained, and the extravasation of blood, causing pressure on the base of the brain, produced death—I believe that was caused by the injury which the man received by falling and his head coming in contact with a stone or some hard substance.

Prisoner's Defence. On Christmas-day the man that is dead had a pipe of mine. I went outside the hatch going to the rear, and coming back I saw him with a pipe, answering to my pipe; he would not give it me; we both had a row; we struggled and had a fight; we had two rounds when Knight fell; he got up, picked up some stones, and hit me; I ran after him and hit him; down he fell and I fell over him. I don't know any more of it.

GUILTY .—Recommended to mercy.— Confined Six Weeks.

28th January 1861
Reference Numbert18610128-204
VerdictGuilty > unknown; Guilty > lesser offence
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude; Imprisonment

Related Material

204. FREDERICK LANCASTER(30), and JOSEPH HARLING (25) , (Marines), Burglary in the dwelling-house of Francis Butler, and stealing therein two silk handkerchiefs and other articles, value 3l., his property. Second Count feloniously receiving the same.

MR. ROWDEN conducted the Prosecution.

FRANCIS BUTLER . I am a colour-sergeant in the Royal Marines—on the 12th Jan. we were stationed at the barracks at Woolwich—I have a room of my own there—no one else had access to it—I obtained leave of absence on the 12th, and left Woolwich on that day—the room has no internal communication with any other room—I locked the room door when 1 went away—on the 17th, in consequence of a telegraphic message that I received, I returned to Woolwich—I found that the door of my room had been broken open,—the box catch being smashed to atoms and everything in the place had been turned out—I had the whole of my things in that room when I left Woolwich—I missed 3 silk handkerchiefs, I silk mantle, 7lbs. of loaf sugar, 5lbs. of ham, 10 pots of jam, 2 jars of pickles, 1lb. of tea, 6 lbs. of loaf sugar, 4lbs. of biscuits, lib. of currants, 2lbs. of cheese, a loaf of bread, and a bottle of wine; they were all safe when I left on the 12th—these handkerchiefs and this piece of silk (produced) are my property—my initials are on the handkerchiefs—they are part of the things that were in my box on the 12th.

Harling. Q. On the Saturday after the robbery did I send to you and

tell you what I had had to do with it; that I had received the handkerchiefs from Lancaster, not knowing them to be stolen? A. You did; but previous to that you denied all knowledge of the matter.

WILLIAM WILSON . I am a private in the Royal Marines, stationed at Woolwich—the prisoners are comrades of mine—on Tuesday morning, 15th January, I got up about half-past 6—I was the first up in that room—After I lighted the gas I saw a lot of small biscuits on the floor, and I said, "Halloa, where have all these biscuits come from?"—there was no answer—that was not the room occupied by Lancaster and Harling—I saw Lancaster afterwards on that morning, and he told me if I was to go up into a room and look up on the shelf over the door, I should see a bag of sugar—he did not occupy the same room as I—he asked me to make away with it—I told him I should have nothing at all to do with it—a little time after that I vent on guard—I saw Lancaster again the next morning—he followed me oat into the passage from the kitchen and said, "Wilson, you are coming off guard and I am going on guard, and I want you to see Harling for me"—I said, "Well, what do you want?"—he said, "I want you to tell him to make away with the silk handkerchiefs and silk, that there may not be a bother about it"—I said, "What silk handkerchiefs?"—he said, "Why don't you know?—I said, "No, I do not know, I should only like to"—he said, "Don't you know that I broke into Butler's lobby the other night?"—I said, "No, this is the first I have heard of it"—he said, "Yes, I did intend to break into it on the ball night, but it was not quite convenient"—I said, "I can't stop to hear any more, I must go back as they will be relieving the guard," and I went away on guard again—when I came off guard I saw Harling—I told him that Lancaster told me to tell him to make away with the handkerchiefs and silk—Harling said, "What do you mean, what silk handkerchiefs?"—I said, "Well, I don't know, you ought to know the best, he told me to tell you"—he then said, "Well, I have got the silk handkerchiefs and the silk, and I am going to make away with then to night"—on the following morning I was in the passage and saw both the prisoners there—Lancaster had just come off guard and I was going up stairs—Lancaster said, "Weil, Harling, have you made away with those silk handkerchiefs and silk?"—he said, "No, I have not, I can't take them out now, because there is a stopper on the gate"—Lancaster made answer, "Well, then, the best thing we can do, to do away with them, is to burn them"—Harling said, "No, let us put them in one of the tanks"—that was all I heard.

Harling. Q. Were you in company with me on the evening of the 14th, and Lancaster and two others, drinking? A. I was; I never recollect seeing you in company with Lancaster before—I don't know whether you were on leave on the night of the 14th, but you said you were—you did not go into barracks with me—you bade me good night—I saw you in the kitchen when I came up on Wednesday, when Lancaster gave me this message.

REBECCA MILLS . I am single and live at Woolwich—on 15th or 16th January I saw the prisoner Harling—he asked me to go down the street with him, and he wanted me—he said he had a handkerchief and some silk which he wanted 5s. for—he did not like to go in with it himself, and asked me to go in with it—I asked him they if were his own—he said, "Yes, they were given to him by a man lately come home"—I took a silk handkerchief and some silk into a shop kept by Mrs. Ward, and sold them for 4s. and gave it to Harling.

BRIDGET WARD . I am the wife of George Ward, and keep a shop at Woolwich—I do not know what night it was, but Harling came in and asked me if I would buy these silk handkerchiefs and bit of silk—I asked him if they were his own—he said, "Yes," and that he had some prize-money coming to him, and took them of a Jew named Davis or Levi in payment of part of his prize-money—I refused to buy them, and he went away—Mills afterwards came and asked me if a marine had been in with them and offered them for sale—I said, "Yes"—I gave her 4s. for them, and kept them in my shop till I gave them up on Tuesday week to the corporal and police, but before that Harling came and said that if anybody came and asked about these goods I was to say nothing of it, and then he went away and spoke to the corporal.

Harling. Q. Did you hear the girl say that I came in company with her to sell the property? A. No, you did not ask me if I had ever seen you before, nor did I say I never saw you in my life.

JOHN HAWKSLEY . I am a corporal in the Marines—I received these silk handkerchiefs and pieces of silk from the last witness—I handed them to sergeant-major Dimsdale.

Harling. Q. Did you go with me to identify the property on the night of 22d? A. Yes—you asked the woman whether she had seen you before, and she said not to her knowledge.

DAVID DIMSDALE . I am a sergeant-major in the Royal Marines—I received these silk handkerchiefs and pieces of silk from the corporal about five minutes to 9 on the night of the 22d—I gave them to the policeman Price next morning.

Harling. Q. Did you ask me on the night of the 22d whether I would go and try and discover the property that was stolen? A. Yes, you appeared willing to do so.

JOHN PRICE (Policeman, R 198). I took Lancaster last Wednesday—I told him the charge—he said he had done it and wished the b—was going with him, who was in company with him at the time—I afterwards took Harling and told him the charge—he said he had received the hand-kerchief from Lancaster in the Crown and Mason's Arms, and gave them to a girl, who sold them and brought him back 4s.—I received these handker-chiefs and silk from the sergeant-major.

Lancaster's Defence. On the night of 14th Wilson and I and Harling were out drinking in the town till about half-past 8. Wilson broke a bottle of rum, and Harling left us and wished us good night, telling a recruit who was there to stop behind. He said, "Lancaster, there is something I want to do to-night, and I hope you will come up into our room and have some rum, and we will go down and put it all right. I went up into the room about 9 o'clock and had a share of the bottle of rum, and Wilson was sitting on the bed with his comrade. I said, "I am going down." He said, "I will be there in about half-an-hour." I went and watched there till about 10 o'clock, when Wilson came down. He said, "Now, Lancaster, Butler is away, I want you to come with me and break into his room; I know there is money in it." I said "Very well, we will go." Somebody came by, and I said, "Go and get into your bed." Wilson said, "No." I went with him to the sergeant's lobby. He took off his jacket and told me to hold it at the door; he took a large tile and broke the door, went in, and picked out four handkerchiefs and a new blue handkerchief, and put them into his own room; he brought two pieces of silk which he gave to me. Next morning he came and said, "Lancaster I have got half-a-crown out of the recruit

to get some breakfast," and told me to go to Derby's bag and get some ham. I did so, and he said, "You take and cook it for breakfast". It was then time to mount guard, and Wilson said, "You can sell them handkerchiefs, and spend the money; that will do till we come off guard." I asked Harling if he would come down the town and have a game at cards; we did so, and I said, "Harling, I have a couple of pieces of silk here, I want you to sell them, I have had them in my bag ever since I came home." He did not know where they came from. I am guilty, but Harling is innocent, Wilson was the other man.

Harling's Defence. On 14th I was walking round the town of Woolwich and Wilson and a recruit asked me to go and have some beer with them. I accompanied them part of the way to the barracks and wished them good Bight On the Tuesday, about half-past 2 in the afternoon, Lancaster came and asked me to go out and have a game at cards with him. I did so; we then went to an eating-house, and afterwards, at Lancaster's suggestion, went to a low part of the town, and he pulled out the handkerchiefs and asked me if I could sell them. I asked whose they were, and he said he had had them in his bag a long time. I had not the remotest idea that they were stolen. I gave them to the girl, who brought 4s. back. I never attempted to conceal what part I had taken in the disposal of the property.

COURT (to JOHN HAWKSLEY). Q. Did Harling go with you to Mrs. Ward's? A. Yes—it was not he who told me where it was; it was Rebecca Mills—he never mentioned Mrs. Ward at all—I asked Harling, who was with me, where it was, and he said at the Crown and Mason's Arms—we had some beer there as we went up the High-street—he looked into Mrs. Ward's shop—I said, "What are you looking there for"—he said, "That is a likely place"—I said, "You had better go back and see if you can purchase, any silk handkerchiefs"—he went and the woman was not within—a little girl fetched her, but she had not got any—he went searching round the town and then said, "There is the girl"—I got the police and charged the girl, who took us to Mrs. Ward's shop, who gave the handkerchiefs to me.

Harling. On the day I was given in custody Ward came and asked me to give her 4s. I said if I felt ever so wiling I had not the money. She said, "Well, I will come up and see if I cannot do you a good turn before the Magistrate in the morning," evidently intending to do me harm. She swore that I went on 17th or 18th and offered the property for sale, when it is known that I was confined in the guard-room on that evening; she afterwards swore that she had never seen me before in her life to her know-ledge. Wilson states that when Lancaster delivered the message to me he saw me in the kitchen; is it not highly improbable that Lancaster should leave my side and go to this man and get a message and deliver it to me; why not deliver it to me in the kitchen?

LANCASTER— GUILTY .— Three Years' Penal Servitude.

HARLING— GUILTY of receiving.— Confined Twelve Months.

Before Mr. Recorder.

28th January 1861
Reference Numbert18610128-205
VerdictGuilty > unknown; Not Guilty > unknown

Related Material

205. JAMES MABNEY (17), and RICHARD FULLER (20) , Stealing a coat, value 15s., the property of Isaac Isaacs.

MR. DICKI. conducted the Prosecution.

ISAAC ISAACS . I am a hat and cap maker, of Skinner-street—on 9th January, about half-past 7,1 was at Mr. Mills', High-street, Deptford—I had driven up in a chaise, in which I had a great coat—I alighted at Mr.

Mills', and I went into the shop—Mr. Watson came in and told me something, in consequence of which I went with him to my chaise—the cost was gone—I went with Mr. Watson to another street and saw the prisoner Marney standing among several others—Mr. Watson pointed him out and said, "You stop here, and I will get a constable;" and Marney was taken in custody.

Marney. When you came up to me, I asked you whether you had lost your coat, and you said "Yes," and that I had got it about me, and I offered for you to search me. Witness. No, I did not say you had it about you.

GEORGE WATSON . I live at 12, High-street, Deptford, and am a boot and shoe maker—on the 9th, I was passing along High-street and saw a chaise standing at Mr. Mills' door, and Marney peeping through the window and watching the chaise narrowly, which induced me to watch him—he remained like that for two or three minutes, and then waved his hand across the road to Fuller—I saw Fuller go across and deliberately take something out of the chaise—I did not know what it was—I went into Mr. Mills', and spoke to the gentleman whom I saw standing there—I brought him to the chaise—I knew Marney in particular before—it is impossible for there to be any mistake with regard to Marney being one that I saw on that occasion—it was in the evening, between 7 and 8 o'clock—the High-street is lighted tolerably well there—I saw which way Marney went, and took the prosecutor down there—Marney was standing among a crowd of lads, and I picked him out—I said, "This is the man that knows something of your coat."

Marney. When they came up, the man charged another boy with having taken the coat. Witness. No—the boy did not cry at all.

COURT.Q. Was there anything about your charging any other boy? A. No; I saw a small boy standing very close to Marney, very thickly dressed—I thought it was possible for Marney to have passed the coat, and I merely turned the lad round to see if the coat was there—I did not charge him as being concerned—I did not know Fuller by sight at all before; I have seen him in Deptford before—I did not know him by sight as well as Marney.

Fuller. When the constable took me into your shop, he asked you whether I was the other one with Marney? Witness. Yes—I said, "I think he is"—when I was brought up before the Magistrate, I said I had a doubt on my mind; I said my first impression was, that you were rather taller than the other, and I wished to be positive.

COURT. Q. Do you feel more positive now than then? A. Yes; the fact of considering the thing over, makes me so; but I do not feel so satisfied as I do with regard to Marney.

Fuller. Q. Where were you standing when I took the coat, as you say? A. Nearly opposite Mr. Mills'—I dare say it is seven or eight yard across the road—I saw your side face—I have seen you several times, selling things in Deptford.

JOHN OLIVE . (Policeman, R 171). I was on duty on 9th January at half-past 7, at High-street, Deptford—Mr. Watson fetched me—he came to me and told me Something, in consequence of which I went down with him and saw Marney with a great many persons standing round him—Mr. Watson said, "I give him in custody for stealing the coat"—I took him—I did not find the coat, and he said he knew nothing about it.

JOSIAH TURNE . (Policeman, R 307). From information I got, I apprehended Fuller on the 14th—I told him the charge—he denied it—he said he was not with Marney that day, and did not know anything about the

coat—I brought Mr. Watson to see him—when I first took him into Mr. Watson's shop, he said, "You are right this time"—I did not show him amongst others.

MARNEY— GUILTY .**— Confined Twelve Months.


Before Robert Malcolm Kerr, Esq.

28th January 1861
Reference Numbert18610128-206
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty; Not Guilty > unknown
SentenceNo Punishment > sentence respited

Related Material

206. JAMES STEELE(16), WILLIAM MILLER(20), and JOHN JAMBS(20) , Breaking and—entering the dwelling-house of John Moore, and stealing therein 2 watches, value 3l., his property; to which


MR. GRESHA.conducted the Prosecution.

RICHARD CLARKE . I live at Cheltenham-place, Westminster-road, and am a tobacconist—on Monday afternoon, 7th January, about half-past 3 or 4 o'clock, I was in the prosecutor's shop, Mr. John Moore, pawnbroker, of Church-street, Woolwich—I heard a noise as if glass was breaking—it appeared to come from the front, from Mr. Moore's window, as though his window was being broken—I ran outside, saw the broken window, and saw the prisoners Steele, Miller, and another, in front—they all three ran away when I went out—I pursued them—I identify Steele and Miller—the other I cannot swear to—I caught Steele and took him back to the shop—this watch (produced) was found on him.

Miller. I did not run at all; he was standing by the side of me. Witness.

You did; you were next to Steele when I caught him.

James. Miller did not run at all; he was standing by the side of me.

MR. GRESHAM.Q. How far had Steele got from Mr. Moore's shop before you caught him? A. About a hundred yards—Miller was not three yards before him—I had run from the shop—when I got out Miller was just outside, and he ran away.

COURT.Q. What o'clock was this? A. About half past 3 or 4 o'clock in the afternoon.

ALFRED CLARKE . I am an assistant of Mr. Moore—I remember being in his shop on the afternoon of 7th January—I did not hear the window broken, I happened to be at the other extreme end of the shop—in consequence of what was said to me, I went outside the shop and found the window broken—I was in the shop when the last witness brought Steele back with the watch in his possession—it is my master's, Mr. John Moore's—I can identify it by a private mark—here is another one, which I picked up off the pavement, just outside the window—that is also Mr. John Moore's, and has his private mark on—these two had been hanging in the window just previously—it is in the parish of Woolwich—this (produced) is the stone with which they broke the window—it was lying down outside—it was a plate-glass window—here is a piece of the glass (produced).

WILLIAM BOWLES . I am assistant to Mr. Moore—on this afternoon I was returning to his shop—when I got near there I saw the three prisoners running away in a direction from the shop—I am sure as to the three—I saw Clarke catch Steele—I ran after them, but could not catch any of them—I gave information to the police—the other two were afterwards taken, and I identified them.

Miller. Q. How far were you from use? A. About forty yards.

James. Q. You say you saw us running I A. Yes.

RICHARD AUSTI .(Policeman, R 439). About 4 o'clock on this Monday afternoon, I went to the prosecutor's shop—Miller and James were given into my custody—I told them they were charged with being implicated,

with another in custody, for breaking a pane of glass, and stealing a watch—they said they knew nothing about it, and did not know what they were detained for—I took them to the station.

WILLIAM WILKINSO . (Police-sergeant, R 12). On the 7th, about a quarter to 4, a few minutes before this affair happened, I saw the prisoners in company with two others, all conversing with each other—they passed me and went towards Mr. Moore's shop.

James. Q. Can you prove how they were dressed? A. In dark clothes—I cannot say what sort of things they were—they looked shabby.


28th January 1861
Reference Numbert18610128-207
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown; Guilty > unknown
SentenceImprisonment > penal servitude

Related Material

207. JOHN JONES(38), JAMES SMITH(28), JAMES WREN(26) THOMAS HUDSON(29), and THOMAS BALL(23) , (Marines) Robbery upon Patrick O'Brien, and stealing from his person, 19s. his property.

MESSRS. LANGFORD and OLDSWORTH conducted the Prosecution.

ELIZABETH BEACH . On the night of Christmas-day last, I was a servant at Mr. Thomas' coffee-house, in Woolwich—I left last Saturday—about 10 o'clock that night three marines, and Patrick O'Brien, a sailor, came into our shop—I can only swear to Smith and Jones, of the three marines—I did not see a fourth marine in the coffee-house—I did when I went to put the shutters up—they had supper, and the sailor paid 2s. 6d. for it—I did. not see him have any other money—I did not receive the money from him to pay for it—I did not see it pass at all—I saw my master take the money to my missus, and she said that it was not enough, that it was only 2s., and he took it back to the man and asked him for another 6d.—no one asked for change for a half-sovereign—I did not see a half-sovereign, or any half-crowns—nothing was said about a half-crown—they all went out together about half-past 10 or a quarter to 11, as near as I can guess—I saw altogether four marines and the sailor—I was examined before the Magistrate—I do not recollect anything about a half-sovereign, more than the sailor gave my missus a half-sovereign to make up 6d., and she said, "Have you no less than this to give me?"—upon that, Smith said, "You need not frighten yourself missus; I don't suppose it is the first half-sovereign the man has had."

Jones. Q. What time was it that I came into your coffee-shop first? A I cannot say—when I went to put the shutters up I saw you coming down with four others—you had a mark on your nose, and I thought you had been fighting—that was about half or a quarter past 10—I do not know how long you were in the coffee-shop, because I only came down as you were all going—I did not notice whether you were tipsy or sober—I cannot swear what sort of dress you had on, but I think you had on the same as you have now—the scar on your nose seemed as though it had been done that night—when I saw you all go, I should think it would be about half-past 10, as near as I can guess—I did not see four marines go out of the coffee-shop; three went out—it was when I went to put up the shutters that I saw four—the sailor went out of the coffee-shop after you.

COURT.Q. Who were the three marines that went with the sailor? A Jones and Smith; the other I cannot say.

Jones. You say in your statement, that the fourth marine was walking backwards and forwards, coming in and out of the shop? Witness. Yes—and he kept going to the door as if he wanted something.

Smith. Q. Which way did we turn? A. Up Air-street—I did not see you go into any house—I had something else to do than to watch you—I believe you had on the same dress as you have now.

PATRICK O'BRIEN , I am a seaman on board the Cumberland—I was at Sheerness on the night of 24th December—on the morning of Christmas-day I was in Woolwich—I came there on the 24th, and slept there at the house of a man named Jones, a civilian—I had my breakfast in the morning, not with Jones—there were two people in the house—I know the prisoner Jones—the first time that I met Smith on the Christmas-day, was early in the afternoon—I first met Jones at night; it must have been about 8 or 9 o'clock, at the Waterman's-hall, I believe they call it—he asked me to have a game at twenty-fives—we played a game, and I won—I cannot tell who was present then—there were two Jones's—I left that house—Smith and Hudson went with me—they locked arms with me going out—Jones was not, to my knowledge, the first marine there—he was in the house, but whether he was at this time, I cannot say—three left the house, but those two are the only two I can swear to—I changed a sovereign in the Water-man' shall—Smith told me to put the half-sovereign away, and not to put it in my pocket with the rest of the money—I had no quarrel in that public-house—I remember going to the coffee-shop of Mr. Thomas, and having supper—I cannot say what o'clock that was—I think it must have been past 10—three marines went there with me—I firmly believe that Hudson and Smith never let go of me—we went into another house before this coffee-shop—I do not know the third one that went into Thomas's, another man, joined us, and went backwards and forwards while we were having our supper—something was said about a crack, in the first part of the afternoon, when I met Smith—Smith and I left Jones and went together into a house called the Punch Bowl—Jones came out very soon after—he went for a glass of beer—while he was gone for it, Smith whispered to me, "I don't like what that fellow says; 'he whispered in my ear to give you a crack "—I said, "I am very doubtful of that, for I have known Jones a good while and have always found him a manly sort of chap"—I believe there were four of them when we came out of the coffee-shop, and I felt jaded—I said, "I can't get back to Sheerness to-night, and I should like you to show me a lodging as close to the railway as possible;" and they said, "All right"—we went a little further, and I found that two were holding me, but I cannot say which they were—they were feeling about my pocket—I said, "What do you mean, men?"—Smith got his hand into my pocket—I said to him, "After my treatment, is that how you are going to serve me?" and, to the best of my knowledge, he said, "Yes"—then we had a scuffle and they knocked me down—I do not know which knocked me down—there were four present at the time—I recognize Hudson smith, nobody else—I was in good sense—one of them said, "Hold his head up;" and then I expected a blow, and I shut my eyes—I received the blow, and then some-one said, "That's done him;" or "done for him"—I cannot swear to the words—when I recovered a little I lifted my head, and they were coming towards me—I recognised Smith—I said, "Smith, you villain, you nearly murdered me"—I did not know who was taking me to the hospital—the next thing I knew was I found myself in the hospital—I was not quite certain the next day, where I was—I am sure I had a half-sovereign in my pocket while I was at the cook-shop—I am quite sure of that, because when the Magistrate came to me he asked the question, when I changed the sovereign, did I have any gold—I said that I changed a sovereign and had a half-sovereign in gold, 9s. in silver, and some coppers—I gave a half-sovereign to the woman at the cook-shop—she gave me four half-crowns for it, and I paid for the supper with one of the half-crowns—when I came out of the

cook-shop I had some half-crowns in my pocket—I did not see them any more—they were taken out of my pocket before I was knocked down, to the best of my belief—I knew that my half-crowns had gone away from me—I do not know who took them, but I can swear that Smith had his hand in my pocket.

Smith. Q. You found my hand in your pocket? A. Yes; you came right in front of me—I cannot swear that you took the money out of my pocket—to the best of my belief I was robbed before I was knocked down—I cannot swear whether you either struck or kicked me, or whether they were kicks or blows that I received—I cannot swear what dress you were in, but to the best of my belief it was the one you have now—to the best of my belief, the first place I saw you at, that day, was the public-house, but I won't be confident to that—I cannot tell the exact time at which it was—I do not know the name of the house—to the best of my belief it was the Warwick.

Hudson. Q. Where was the first house you saw me? A. To the best of my belief, the same house where I first saw Smith—I cannot tell you what time.; it was before we went to have dinner—you did not go to have any dinner with us—I am not positive that you went to the coffee-shop—you took hold of my arm on leaving the Waterman's-hall—I cannot tell the exact time I went to the coffee-shop—it might be 10 o'clock or a little after—I was quite correct when I was robbed, enough to know to do my duty as a man—at the time you came down with the sergeant-major I had to lift my left eyelid to see you, I could not see anything with my right eye—I did not identify him—I do not know whether t e sergeant-major said, "Be positive"—I did not, to my knowledge, say that I was positive you were not the man—I could not say that, for I could not see you

WILLIAM' DIAMOND THOMAS . I keep an eating-house, 30, High-street, Woolwich—I recollect seeing the prosecutor, Patrick O'Brien, at my house on the night of 25th December, and Smith and Wren with him—there was 'one more with them, whom I cannot swear to—they had supper at my house, and left about twenty minutes to 11—the prosecutor and the three men left together.

Wren. Q. What time did I come into your house that night? A. I should say about 10 o'clock, and you remained there somewhere about half an hour, or a little more perhaps—the sailor paid 2s. 6d. for the supper—I recognise you by your features—you had on a soldier's dress—I am not prepared to say whether it was uniform, or as you are at present—I did not swear at Woolwich police-court, that you were dressed with a hat and tunic (The witness's deposition being read, stated, "Wren had a hat on, and tunic")—by a hat, I mean a shako, the ordinary hat worn by the marines; and by a tunic, I mean a short skirt—there were three marines in my house at the time—they sat in the front shop—Smith was close to the partition—the partition was between Smith and the sailor—they could not have any communication with one another—the partition is only half-way, it was the same table—it is a partition separating six at the table—the sailor supped at the same table—he sat by the side of the partition—the other marine sat next to you—I could not identify the other marine as well as you—you left my house about twenty minutes to 11—I cannot say who went out first—you walked out in company, one after the other—I did not see where you went.

ELIZABETH THOMAS . I am the wife of the last witness—I remember O'Brien coming to our house with some marines on the night of Christmas-day—I gave him change for a half-sovereign—Smith was one of the marines, and there were two others, whom I cannot identify—I did not see any marines outside.

Wren. Q. Were you in the house when the sailor came in? A. No; I was fetched in afterwards—I saw the three marines with him when I came into the shop—I can only swear to one of the marines—Smith was sitting next to the sailor, who was sitting at the end of the table—there was a partition separating them—I cannot say who the marine sitting next to Smith was—I looked particularly at Smith, not at any of the others—Smith was talking to me or I should not have noticed him—I cannot say that you were there at all.

BENJAMIN DEANE . I live at Montgrant-square, Woolwich, and am a labourer—on Christmas-day last, about a quarter-past 11 at night, I was standing at the corner of Placid-alley, Woolwich, about a hundred yards from Thomas's cook-shop, and saw Jones, Smith, Ball, one other, and the sailor, five altogether—I have seen the sailor here to-day—they were all standing in a lump round the sailor, talking, for about five minutes—I heard one of the marines say, "Have you got it?"—I could not swear which said that—another one said, "Yes, I have got it"—as soon as he said he had got it, Smith and Ball chucked the sailor down, and then I saw Jones and Ball kicking him together—then, after they kicked him, they ran up through the square—the sailor cried out "Murder!" and as soon as they left him I went down to him—I had seen Jones and Smith the same evening before, in company with the sailor, coming down High-street—I did not notice what time that was; about half-past 9—a woman named Jones, also came up to the sailor when he called out "Murder"—I sent her for the police—she came back to me and said she could not find them—the police ultimately came, and the sailor was taken to the Royal Marine Hospital.

Jones. Q. What kind of a dress had I on when you first saw me? A. You were in a red coat, but whether a jacket or a tunic I cannot say—it was about half-past 9 when I first saw you—you were not tipsy—I did not see what house you first went into after I first saw you—I passed you by in the street—I was going one way and you were coming the other—the sailor was in your company when I first saw you—I cannot say how long you were in his company—I was not watching you—I cannot say which feet you and Ball kicked with.

Smith. Q. What time do you say it was when you saw me with the sailor? A. About half-past 9—I saw three of you coming down the street together—it was a quarter-past 11 when I found the sailor down—I stood there for about five minutes—another man, a civilian, came down at the time—that was a brother of mine—I gave an alarm—I sung out "Police!"—we did not both stand near while the police came—my brother went indoors—he lives about two or three minutes' walk from there, I should say, I cannot say exactly as to the distance, I have not measured the ground—when my brother came down he said it was a shame to see the man treated like that—I did not interfere with you at all—my brother went with me to the sailor after the marines went away—he was having his supper in-doors, and after He heard "Murder!" he came out—he had neither cap nor coat on, and he went back and put them on and then came down again.

Wren. Q. When the sailor shouted "Murder!" had the marines run away? A. Yes; you were all in the alley when he shouted "Murder!"—you stopped about a minute after that, and then all ran away-there were four marines there, not five—I could only see five altogether.

Ball. Q. How long have you lived in Woolwich? A. About six years—I use the White Hart public-house, and have done so for about eight months—I have seen you there in the tap-room—I cannot say how many times—you have never been in my company, that I know of.

COURT. Q Was this about a quarter-past 11? A. Yes, or twenty minutes—it was not a dark night; it was dark at the time—I could see—they were between six and seven yards from me when this took place—I could see the faces of the marines—their faces were towards me when they were running away—I cannot say precisely as to Hudson being there—I am perfectly satisfied of the identity of Ball.

THOMAS DEANE . I am the brother of the last witness, and live at 25, Montgrant-square—on the night of Christmas-day last, I was having my supper at a little after 11 o'clock, and I heard very heavy screams of "Murder!"—I hastened from the table without cap or coat, and went to see what was the matter—when I got out I saw those marines beating the sailor O'Brien—the sailor lay down, and I saw Smith take some money in his hand, put it in his pocket, and then get up and strike the man with his fist—the sailor fell, and after that Smith gave him a kick—after that, Wren kicked the man, and said, "Come on, he's done"—I got away from the ground, not having a coat or cap, and went up to where I lived, for fear of being locked up myself—I stood at the top of the square—Smith and Wren came up against me, and Smith said to Wren, "Come on, you by fool, I have got it f he also said, "I think he's done—there were two carts in the square, and a lot of shells and stones lying in the square—Wren stooped down and picked up one—I cannot say whether it was a stone or a shell—I hastened in-doors—I am sure it was Wren—I had known him before, I cannot say how long, but he has been drinking in my company before.

Smith. Q. Were there any marines there? A. I saw four marines—you were the first man that ran away—I saw money in your hand—you were standing still with your jacket open, putting the money in your pocket—the sailor was up at that time—after you put the money in your pocket, you kicked him and threw him down—I live not 200 yards from there—it was a little after 11 o'clock—two marines followed you through the square a short time afterwards, running—there was a civilian there, but 1 do not know who he was—my brother was down there at the time, along with the sailor.

Wren. Q. What time do you say you heard "Murder!" shouted out? A. A little after 11—when I came up I saw you and Smith strike the sailor—there were four of you there—I cannot say who the other two were—they were standing up aside of you—I saw you under the cart after the marines ran away—I cannot say what you did with the stones or shells that you picked up—I know there were four marines there—I could not swear that there were five—I did not see you and Smith kick the man both together—I did not say so in my deposition before the Magistrate—I have known you, I cannot tell you how long—it was before Christmas—I cannot say whether it was a week, two months, three months, or six months before Christmas, that I was in your company.

COURT.Q. Do you think it was only a few weeks that you have known him? A. I think it might have been a few weeks—I cannot say very well.

Wren. Q. What clothes had I on? A. Well, much the same dress that you have now—I do not know that you bad a uniform coat on; or a hat—I did not take much notice whether it was a hat or cap, but to the best of my opinion it was a cap.

MARY ANN JONES . I am the wife of William Jones, a confectioner, of Woolwich—ours is not the house where O'Brien slept on the night of the 24th—I remember being near Montgrant-square on Christmas-day, about half-past 11 o'clock—I live at Mr. Pepper's cottages, near there—I was

going out of my cottage at a quarter or half past 11, to get a candle, and when I got outside, screams of "Murder!" stopped me—I heard them as loud as I could hear—and, with that, four marines ran by me, and Smith, who was one of them, nearly knocked me down as he went by me—I could not swear to the other three—I do not know Jones—I suspect him, only he had a sore down his nose—I saw O'Brien—after the marines ran by me, I ran down to the spot where "Murder!" was screamed.

Smith. Q. Was I the first, second, or third, running up? A. There were two of you; you were the two first that ran by me—the other two had their caps or hats in their hands, they bad nothing on their heads—when I got to the sailor, Deane was there—I did not see another civilian or anybody else there—I ran for a policeman, and, when I got back, two men were there—I did not see anybody kick or strike the marine.

Wren. Q. Which of the marines was it that you said had a sore on his nose? A. I cannot say which of them; I only say that one of them had—I did not stop by the sailor above ten minutes or a quarter of an hour—all the marines were gone before I left.

ELLEN WALLACE . I live at 25, Mountgrant-square, and am the wife of Joseph Wallace, a marine—on Christmas-day last, about 11 o'clock at night, I was coming out of my house—I heard some cries—I saw four marines rush up against me—I turned round and noticed Jones—he and another man were quite close together—he said, "Come on, come on, we have got it, and I think he is done for"—I was close by him—he rushed against my side—I went down to the corner, and saw the sailor bleed very much—I lifted his head up—I had seen Jones several times before, in barracks—I did not observe his nose—I knew his features—there was a cut on his nose when I saw him on Christmas-day—I am quite certain of that—my husband is a marine—he is on sea now.

Jones. Q. How long ago is it since you first knew me? A. I have teen you several times, by my going into the barracks with washing—I cannot tell what company you were in, in the barracks—it was a little past eleven that night when I first saw you—you had red clothes on, and I knew you were a marine—I cannot tell whether you had on a tunic, a uniform hat, or a forage cap—I had seen you that night two or three times before—I had seen you no later than six or seven weeks ago, in barracks—I know you quite well—I have never done anything for you—I know a good many in the barracks besides you—it was a starlight night when you ran against me—it was light enough to see your lips move—what you said was, "Come on, come on, you b—s, I have got it, and I think he is done for," only I did not like to explain the words you made use of—I cannot remember whether, at the time I first saw you, you wore whiskers, or were clean shaved—you were right up at the top of the square when I first saw you—I cannot say what distance that was from the sailor—I dare say it is about thirty yards—there were no more remarks passed at the time, than what you passed—there were four marines there—I could not identify any of the others—you seemed to be quite sober—I did not see you strike or kick the sailor—about five minutes past ten was the last time I had previously seen you that night.

Wren. Q. At the time you came down the alley was there any person there? A. Yes, my brothers, Thomas and Benjamin Deane—I was with them—I cannot tell you exactly the time, but I know it was a little past ten.

JAMES HAMILTON LIN WELL (Police-inspector, R). I remember Benjamin

Deane coming to me about half-past eleven o'clock, on the night of 25th December—I went with him to Placid-alley, near Mountgrant-square—that is about sixty or seventy yards from Thomas' cook-shop—I found the prosecutor lying on the ground on his left side, with his left arm under his head; there was a most severe wound on the right temple, and a large quantity of blood—I took him to the police-station, and then conveyed him to the Hospital—both his trowsers' pockets were turned inside out—I observed the prisoners after they were apprehended—Jones' nose was scarred nearly from top to bottom—it did not look like a blow; more like a graze.

Jones. Q. Did you see me anywhere that night? A. No.

WILLIAM HENRY CRUISE . I am assistant-surgeon at the Royal Marine barracks, at Woolwich—the prosecutor was brought there about one o'clock, on the morning of 26th December. He seemed drunk, he was lying on a stretcher, to the best of my recollection—I had him removed immediately to the bed—his wounds had been surgically dressed before—when I saw the wound afterwards, it appeared a contused wound over the right eye—from the position of it, I think he must have been lying down when it was inflicted—a kick with a heavy boot would have produced it, or a blunt instrument—I did not see the wound till some time afterwards—I saw it in consequence of erysipelas setting in—the wound in itself was not dangerous—the man was in danger in consequence of the erysipelas.

Jones. Q. It has been sworn that four marines were kicking the sailor, was there more than one mark about him 1 A. No, I found but one wound—I examined him for other bruises.

JURY.Q. How long after was it that you examined him? A. After 7th January; after the erysipelas—an ordinary bruise would have been visible then—I examined him on the first night, for other blows—I was told by the inspector of police that he had been surgically dressed before he was brought to me—I examined him for other blows, but found none.

JOHN PRIC . (Policeman, R 196). On the morning of 26th December, I went to the marine barracks and apprehended Jones—I told him, he was charged with being concerned with others, not in custody, for violently assaulting Patrick O'Brien, and robbing him—he said he knew nothing of it—Jones had a scar on the top part of the nose—I afterwards took Smith and Wren, Hudson and Ball.

The prisoners' statements before the Magistrate were here read as follows: Jones says" I went into the Waterman's-hall, on Christmas night, and before the pot of beer was brought, at a quarter to eight, the sailor and three marines left the house, and I and the civilian Jones, two girls, and an artilleryman, stopped in the house till eleven o'clock—what time the civilian Jones left the house, I can't say." Wren says—"About Ave o'clock on Christmas-day I went into the Warwick public-house, and called for a pot of beer; after I had drunk the beer, I went to the Coach and Horses; I had another pot there. I then went with an artilleryman to Uncle Tom's Cabin, stopped there till seven, and then I left. I went back to the Warwick public-house, and stopped there till eleven o'clock, when I went to a house where I stopped the night." Hudson says—"I was at the Waterman's-hall, on Christmas night; a sailorman and an artilleryman were playing at cards; I went then to Uncle Tom's Cabin, and stopped there till ten o'clock. I went next to Jack's Castle, and went into barracks. I did not see the sailor after I left him in the Waterman's-hall that night." Ball says—"I went into Uncle Tom's Cabin on Christmas-day; I had some beer there; I stopped there till eight o'clock, and then went over to Plumstead. I stopped there

till half-past nine, came over to Woolwich again, and went to the Coach and Horses; from there I went to Uncle Tom's Cabin again, and remained there a short time."

DENNIS WOODWARD . I am the landlord of the Uncle Tom's Cabin, in Woolwich—on the night of Christmas-day, between ten and eleven o'clock, the five prisoners were at my house, and they left at a little after ten—four of them were drinking together, and Jones was drinking by himself—the four went out first—to the best of my recollection it was between a quarter to eleven, and the time of shutting up, that Jones went out.

Jones. Q. What time did we come into the house? A. About a little after nine, I think—you came in before, at a little after six o'clock, and all drank together, and all left together—you were in a marine's dress, but whether you had a tunic on or not, I cannot say—I know you all—I have seen you at different times in my house—I could not exactly tell the last time that you were there before Christmas-day—I think it was about a quarter to eleven that you left my house the last time.

Smith. Q. Was the sailor with us when we came into the house? A. I did not see him at all, that I recollect.

Wren. Q. What was the last time that I came in? A. Something between 9 and 10—I do not know exactly.

Hudson. Q. Do not you think I was in your house at half-past 8 that night? A. I could not say exactly what time it was—I think it was about 9—it was somewhere about 10, I daresay, when you went from my house—I did not look at the clock—I do not recollect seeing the seaman in my house at all.

The prisoner Wren called

GEORGE MURRA .(examined by Wren): On Christmas-day, about 5 o'clock, you came into the Warwick public-house, and had a pot of beer—you then went out and stopped away some time—about 7 o'clock you came back to the public-house, and remained there till 11—I gave you a pot of beer in a can, when you went out—you then went away from the door, with a girl.

Cross-examined by MR. LANGFORD. Q. Is that girl a woman of the name of Carey? A. Yes; she lives at 17, St. Martin's-passage—I believe that is the name—I cannot write—I can read writing—my mistress is not here, that I am aware of—I have not received a letter from Wren—there were some notes that I had from Carey—she gave me one note, asking me to come here—I am sure that was all—I know Carey by coming to our house—I do not know in whose writing those notes were—I do not know whether they were the girl's writing, or Wren's—I have not acted upon those notes—I do not know where this note came from.

Wren's Defence. The prosecutor does not swear to me; he states that he was sober, and if so, he must be able to swear to me; then the other witnesses cannot swear that they saw me in his company; the next witness swears that, at the time of the assault being committed, he was sitting in his own house, which be says was about two hundred yards off; that he ran to the place, and saw two men in the act of kicking the man; he says that I am one of the party, that he knows me well, through being in my company in some public-house; when I asked him how long it was since he saw me before, he said before Christmas, and he cannot tell me whether it was a week, two months, three months, or six months; if he was in my company so often as he swears he was, he must be able to tell the truth; the other witness states that there-were four marines, and he stated at the Greenwich police-court that there were only two; then the woman

says she saw four marines run past her house, and identifies one of them; how can she swear that I am one of them? there is a Mr. Thomas that swears I was in his eating-house about 10 o'clock, and the landlord of Uncle Tom's Cabin swears that I came into his house about that time; it is for you to judge whether I could be in the two houses at the same time; the man that keeps the eating-house says that I had a hat and tunic on;' the sergeant can prove that I was never served out with a tunic; between all the witnesses they swear that there were four different men that kicked the man; if so, there must have been four different marks, but the doctor states there was only one cut, over the eye; you will find that not one witness corresponds with the others, and I hope and trust you will do justice between me and them, as I am innocent of the charge laid against me.



Wren was further charged with having been before convicted.

THOMAS WATSON (Policeman, R 124). I produce a certificate (Read; "Central Criminal Court, 28th November, 1859. James Wren, convicted of stealing a purse, and2l. 15s. the property of George Attwell, from his person—Confined Four Months.")—I was present when that trial took place—that certificate refers to James Wren, the prisoner.


SERGEANT-MAJOR DRYSDALE gave Jones, Smith, and Wren, bad characters.

JONES, SMITH, & WREN Six Tears' Penal Servitude.

Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

28th January 1861
Reference Numbert18610128-208
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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208. JOHN NASH(49) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.

MR. COOK.conducted the Prosecution.

JOHN JAMES CHOWN . I am the landlord of the Wellesley beer-house, at Woolwich—on Monday, 21st January, the prisoner came in there about half-past 11 in the morning, and called for half a pint of porter—he put down a fourpenny piece—I saw that it was bad, marked it, and gave it back to him, telling him it was bad—he asked me what I meant, and then put down a shilling, which I thought was bad—I told him I did not like the looks of it, and gave it him back—he then gave me a good shilling, and I gave him a sixpence and 5 d. in copper—upon that, he took off his coat and wanted to fight; he was very abusive—he left my house about five minutes after that—in consequence of what had happened. I followed him—I saw him sort his money and put something, which I suppose was money, into his mouth—after that I saw him go into several shops and public-houses, one after the other—I saw him go into the Royal Albert—after he came out, I went in and asked a question—these (produced) are the fourpenny piece and shilling that he gave me—here is the mark that I made on the four-penny piece.

WILLIAM WICKHAM . I am the landlord of the General Havelock beerhouse, Woolwich—yesterday week, between 11 and 12 o'clock in the morning, the prisoner came in there and asked for a pint of half-and-half—I drew it for him, and, upon that, he threw down a fourpenny piece—I supposed it to be bad, the moment I saw it, and prevented him from drinking the beer—the prosecutor and a constable came in in less than three minutes—I gave the prisoner in custody, and gave the policeman the fourpenny piece—it passed through no one else's hands.

ANN STEVENSON . I keep the Royal Albert, Woolwich—the prisoner came there yesterday week, between 10 and 11 o'clock, and called for half pint of porter—the Royal Albert is about thirty or forty yards from the

General Havelock—when he drank his porter, he put down a fourpenny piece—I put it in the till, and gave him, in change, 3d. in copper—I had no other fourpenny piece in the till, when I pat that one in—the prisoner went out at one door, and Mr. Chown came in at the other—I then examined the fourpenuy-piece, and discovered it to be bad—I gave it to the constable, who is here.

JOHN SELF (Policeman). Mr. Chown called upon me to take the prisoner into custody—I went into the General Havelock, where I received this fourpenny-piece, and took the prisoner into custody—I also got this fourpenuy-piece (produced) from Mr. Wickham—after I got the prisoner to the station, I searched him, and found this bad shilling, one good shilling, and 5 1/2 d. In copper—the shilling is copper silvered over—it is rather duller now, than when I took it from the prisoner, there was more silver upon it.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . These two fourpenny-pieces are bad, and from the same mould—the shilling is a farthing altered into a shilling; ground down, and then flattened out; afterward malted, and then washed over with silver.

Prisoner's Defence. I had a half-sovereign, a sixpence, and a peony-piece when I went out that day; I changed the half-sovereign at a public-house; 1 went on further and stood six-pennyworth with a potman at another public-house; I went across to Woolwich with a party to have something to drink; I then bad 5s. in my pocket; I went into a public-house, and called for half a pint of beer, and they gave me two fourpenny-bits, and a threepenny-bit; I had been drinking rather freely; I said, "I don't like this little fiddling money, can't you give me copper?" the landlady said she had no other money than that; I walked about first into one house and then into another, and found I was rather on the drink; as to knowing what money I had. I knew nothing about it scarcely; as to the shilling, I know not where I took, it; I get my living honestly enough.

GUILTY .— Confined Nine Months.


Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

28th January 1861
Reference Numbert18610128-209
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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209. HENRY DRAKERS (22) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.

MESSRS CLER. and POLAND conducted the Prosecution.

ELLEN TOWNSEND . I am barmaid to Alfred John Wrangham, who keeps the Gregorian Arms, Tooley-street—on Saturday, 19th January, about 4 o'clock in the afternoon, the prisoner came there and asked for half a pint of porter—I served him, and he gave me a penny in payment—he drank the porter and went out—he was absent about two or three minutes—he then returned, and asked for three pennyworth of ginger brandy—I served him, and he gave me a five-shilling piece—I took it up and went into the bar parlour and gave it to my sister, Mrs. Wrangham, in order that she might give me change—I did not give any change to the prisoner—I left the crown-piece with Mrs. Wrangham.

ELIZA WRANGHAM . I am the wife of John Wrangham—I was in the bar parlour on the afternoon of 19th January—the last witness brought me a crown-piece—I bit it, found it was bad, and gave it to my husband—he came out into the bar and spoke to the prisoner about it—the prisoner was then at the bar.

ALFRED JOHN WRANGHAM . I keep the Gregorian Arms, in St. James' place, Bermondsey—I received from my wife, what appeared to be a crown-piece—the prisoner was then in front of the bar—I went up to him and said" Old fellow, have you got any more of those things about you?"—he said, "Why, is it not good?"—I said, "No; didn't you know it was not good? you"—he said, "No, I thought it was a good one"—he said that he had taken it at a skittle-ground; that he had given change—he did not say precisely, but I understood him to say a skittle-ground near Woolwich—I asked him if he would have any objection to walk with me to the station—he said, "Certainly"—he went part of the way till I met a constable, to whom I gave the crown-piece which I had received—I gave him into custody.

JOSEPH LAWRENCE (Policeman, M 205). Mr. Wrangham gave the prisoner into my custody—I took him to the station and searched him—I found on him a florin, a sixpence, and 2 1/2 d. in copper, all good money—Mr. Wrangham gave me the five-shilling piece, in the prisoner's presence.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . I am inspector of coin to the Mint—this coin is bad.

Prisoner's Defence. On Friday evening I had the misfortune to take that On my way home on Saturday night I called in at the public house for the ale; I was going to buy a pair of new boots with the change.

GUILTY .**— Confined Nine Months.

Before Robert Malcolm Kerr, Esq.

28th January 1861
Reference Numbert18610128-210
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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210. THOMAS HARRIS(31) , Burglary in the dwelling-house of William Pinnock, and stealing therein 4 spoons, value 15s., 1 coat, value 1l., money to the amount of 9l. the property of Balthazzar Pinnock, and 1 jacket, 1 ring, 1 coat, and 3 studs, the property of William Pinnock.

MR. BRIERLY conducted the Prosecution.

WILLIAM PINNOCK . I keep the Nag's Head public-house in York-road, Battersea—on the morning of 20th April I went into the bar and found the bar door open, a screw drawn out of the box-staple, and the staple drawn back—I found a wooden bowl which had contained silver the previous evening, lying empty on the counter—I went outside; a policeman was passing at the time; he came in and found that Rome one had gained entrance in the public parlour at the rear of the premises and that the perforated zinc blind that was put there was broken away from the window, and the window thrown up—any one could easily step in—I looked about and missed a tin box, containing above five pounds' worth of halfpence, from a cupboard underneath the counter; from a desk in the bar three pounds worth of silver, done up in separate parcels; and about one pound's worth of loose money from the till—I also missed a gold finger ring, three gold shirt-studs, and four silver spoons from the desk—I afterwards found the tin box up at the end of the garden, very nearly thirty yards from the house, empty—before that I missed an overcoat, a pilot jacket, and an ordinary coat, and discovered a cord jacket in the kitchen—this overcoat, studs, ring, and pilot jacket are mine—these are them (produced)—the ring is not here—the four silver spoons belong to the executors of the late George Pinnock—this is the jacket I found in the kitchen—the bar was secure the night before—I did not fasten the window—I fastened the bar door and the outer door.

Cross-examined by MR. COOPER.Q. Do you know whether the window was down or up? A. No, I do not—I came down about a quarter-past six—I looked at the clock at the time—I am quite sure this property is mine—I have worn the studs some time—the spoons are old family relics.

ELIZABETH HUGGINS . I am in the service of the last witness—I was there on 19th April last—I am quite positive the parlour window was fastened at night, and the blind down, but the shutters were not shut—it was about twenty minutes past 6 when I came down stairs next morning.

WILLIAM ABROOK (Police Inspector, V). I went to the Nag's Head public-house on 20th April last—I found the parlour window open, and on going outside I found the marks of a knife which had been inserted between the two sashes of the window to force the catch back—I then went to the bar, and found the door open, and a screw had been forced out of the box where the lock fits in—I received this jacket from Mr. Pinnock; he stated that he found it in the kitchen.

RICHARD HARRIS . I am assistant to Mr. Dicker, a pawnbroker, of Lower March, Lambeth—I produce four silver spoons, pledged at our place in the name of John Harris—I do not know who pledged them—the assistant who took it in has left.

Cross-examined. Q. I believe it is a very common thing for persons pledging to give an assumed name? A. Yes.

LEONARD HAYWARD . I am assistant to Mr. Robinson, a pawnbroker, residing at 1, New Park-street, South wark—I produce a coat pledged on 20th, and three studs pledged on 23d April last, in the name of John Harris, 3, Worcester-street—I believe the prisoner is the party who pledged them—I took in the coat, and I am almost positive I took in the studs.

Cross-examined. Q. Have you not said that you may be mistaken with respect to his being the man? A. I said I was very nearly positive—I may be mistaken; the party was dressed differently to what the prisoner is now—I sometimes see five hundred faces in the course of the day.

JOHNCHUTER (Policeman, L 123). I-was informed that I had to identify the prisoner at Wandsworth police-court on 16th of this month—this jacket was produced—I told the Magistrate the marks on the jacket before I saw it—there is a quantity of ironmould on the left arm and also a great hole in the pockets—I had examined the jacket before, when I had the prisoner in custody on 13th January, 1860—I never saw it from that time till I saw it at the Wandsworth police-court, and I then identified it as the jacket the prisoner had worn.

Cross-examined. Q. It was a year before that you saw that? A. Yes—I have seen a good many dirty coats like these; they look like marks where tools have been carried.

FRANCIS PAYNE (Policeman, V 88). I apprehended the prisoner—I went to Bury St. Edmunds and saw him there—I told him I apprehended him on a warrant, and told him the charge; he said, "They can't prove I did it"—I then said, "You are apprehended in consequence of a statement that you made to Mr. Glazier, the superintendent of police for Bury St. Edmunds"—he said, "It is true I sent for Mr. Glazier, and the reason I did it was because I wanted to get four years, so as to get rid of all my old associates"—I said I must take him to Wandsworth on this warrant which I had, and I read a copy of the statement which he had made to him—he said he belonged to Yorkshire, and his friends were very respectable people—I said with respect to the robbery, that the things had been found at the different pawnbrokers'—he did not make any reply to that—I did not go to the pawnbrokers' myself on the first occasion; I merely went to warn them to produce the property—the prisoner further stated that he did not know anything about the robbery till after it was committed.

BENJAMIN RICHARD ELLIS . I am warder of the Wandsworth House of

Correction—I saw the prisoner on 20th January, 1860—I cannot swear to this jacket—the Nag's Head public-house is about two miles from the Wandsworth gaol, I should think.


Before Mr. Recorder.

28th January 1861
Reference Numbert18610128-211
VerdictGuilty > pleaded guilty

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211. MARK SULLIVAN(32) , Stealing 5 lbs. weight of metal, value 3s. the property of Edward Budd and others, his masters, to which he

PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Three Months.

Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

28th January 1861
Reference Numbert18610128-212
VerdictsGuilty > unknown; Guilty > unknown; Guilty > unknown; Guilty > unknown
SentencesImprisonment; Imprisonment; Imprisonment; Imprisonment

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212. JOHN JELF(32), JOHN PERCIVAL(30). and JOHN PREECE (45), were indicted (with James Harris not in custody) for stealing 51 lbs. of metal sheeting, value 2l., the property of Edward Budd and others, their masters, and ROBERT McGREGOR (53) feloniously receiving the same.

MESSRS. METCALFE and ORRIDGE conducted the Prosecution.

CHARLES THOMAS GAYLOR (City-policeman). I am a detective—on Monday afternoon, 7th January, I received directions from Messrs. Budd, and went in plain clothes to Princes Dock, Rotherhithe—I got there about twenty minutes to 5 o'clock, close by the dock, and saw Graham's wagon loading some old sheathing in front of the dock—Jelf, Percival, and some others whom I could not see, were bringing the metal from the dock to the wagon—Preece was in the wagon packing the metal—I saw a man named Sullivan there (See last case)—I followed and apprehended him, and after taking him to the station I returned to the wagon and found it had turned down Paradise-street, and drawn up at a public-house—it had turned to the right instead of the left—Preece was the driver of it—Clark's Orchard is at the back of that public-house—as I turned the corner to meet the wagon I heard the metal rattle, and a roan who had picked some metal off the wagon ran through the narrow court at the side of the public-house into Clark's Orchard, carrying some metal under his arm—I have not ascertained who that was—as I drew nearer I saw another person, who I believe to be Jelf, take another armful of open squares of metal and leave the wagon with it—it was like this sheathing (produced)—the man in the wagon trampled it down so as to lay close in the wagon like sheets of paper—when I first turned the corner Percival and Preece were drinking out of a pint of porter between the tail of the wagon and the cart—Percival brought it out and gave it to Preece—Jelf then came back from the court—I am positive it was Jelf—I knew him previously working at the wharf—Harris then ran through with another armful—Jelf saw me and held up his hands, giving a signal to Percival, who was shifting the metal down towards the tail-board where the others were removing it from—I ran before Percival and followed Harris across Clark's Orchard, and caught him half way through the wicket-gate of Mr. McGregor's house and half out—Clark's Orchard is a narrow court, more like a mews than a street—I caught hold of his collar, and part of the metal dropped inside McGregor's and some outside—we had a struggle—he was stronger than me—we had several ups and downs and he got away, and I have not seen him since—he ran past the wagon, and Percival and the others who were there never offered to stop him—the wagon then went on—I went hack and picked up the metal that laid outside, took it to the station, and came back with another constable to McGregor's, and rang the bell several times, as the wicket-gate was then shut: I did not see it open, it must have been shut in the scuffle, I suppose—I rang the bell three or four times, and at last Mr. McGregor came down—I said, "You have some metal in here which some men have been

bringing; I want to see it"—he said, "No, I have not; there has been no metal brought in to-day"—I said, "I know better, for I have seen two lots come myself—I asked him where he kept his metal and he took us up stairs—the house is like a mews, there is a pair of folding-gates and rooms over them, but nothing like a shop—I went to the first floor, and at the top of the landing there was a little square place, where there was a little box with a quantity of this metal in it piled up—there were scales and so forth on the landing—there was none lying on the landing, it was all doubled up in this form and put in the box—these small squares are where the folds were—I said, "How do you account for the possession of this V—he said that he bought it of some one whose name I forget, and had got a receipt for it—he called his daughter to bring the receipt—this is it (produced)—the name he mentioned is the name that appeared on the receipt—(Read: "King and Queen Dockyard, November 14, 1860.—Received of Mr. McGregor 25l. in part payment of 9cwt. 2qrs. 4 lbs. old metal and nails, for Reedy and Mar-shall, Robert Strachan.")—I said, "This receipt will not do for me, fort his stuff is quite wet as if just brought in, and this receipt is 14th November, and this is 7th January"—it was wet with frost and snow on it—there was very heavy rime that morning, and there was rime on the metal—there was rime on the metal in the wagon—he said, "My man always washes the metal"—I said, "This metal has not been washed, because here is all the frost and snow on it, and if it had been washed that would not have been there"—I took the metal away which had the frost and snow on it, leaving a quantity behind which was dry—I brought away 32 lbs. all with frost and snow on it, that was stacked: the bottom part was dry—I told McGregor that he would be wanted at Greenwich police-court next morning at half-past 9, and said, "I will call for you to go there"—! called for him but he was not there—I was at the police-court all day but did not see him—after I had taken the metal away from McGregor's I went by rail to the prosecutor's premises—the wagon had not come in—I waited for it—Percival, Jelf, and Preece came with it—I told them I should take them in custody for being concerned with others in stealing this metal of their masters—they said that they knew nothing of it, and Jelf said, "When you ran by me I felt struck to the ground, you might have knocked me down as you passed me; I know nothing about it"—I said, "I know better, you were there all the time; you were the person who went with the second lot, you were sent to the end of the court when I went through, and you held up your hands and gave the office to the others"—he persisted in his innocence—Percival said that he knew nothing about it—I said, "I know better; you were standing drinking with the carman when the other ran through"—he acknowledged drinking the beer, but said that one of them went to the water-closet and he never saw anything of it—Preece said he know nothing about it—I said, "You were standing by at the time and saw all that was going on"—I made the report to Preece's master, and he ordered him to be at the police-court on 15th January—I was there and took him in custody—that was after the first examination—the others were in custody before—I asked Preece how he accounted for going out of his road, as, instead of turning to the left, he turned down Paradise-street—he said, "Percival ordered me"—Percival was not present when he said that—the other would have been the more direct road—he persisted that he knew nothing about it and I said "You must answer that before a Magistrate."

Cross-examined by MR. ROWDEN. Q. Can you fix the exact time that you were standing there? A. As near 5 o'clock as I can say—it might have been

a few minutes after—it was a little after 5 o'clock when I saw these men running up the court—it was not dark, as there was a gas lamp over the door of the public-house, but it was dark in the street where I was—I saw Jelf coming down the court, and was confident of him at the time—I should not like to swear to him now, but I feel confident because I knew him long before—if he had a pipe in his hand I think I must have seen it, because I spoke to him and said, "I can take you at any time," as I ran by him—if he came out of the public-house it was before I came up—he put his h and up like this, and I considered it was a signal to the others to leave off—Preece was standing between the wagon and the public-house—I was on this side of the wagon—it did not screen them from me—Preece was drinking some beer—I know he saw what passed because his face was to me, and I saw it—I did not take him in custody till after we got to Greenwich—it was only after certain things he said that he was taken in custody—it is not customary for all the carts and wagons to go down Paradise-street to avoid the toll-bar—the bar is t' e other side of Mill-pond-bridge—Preece has been out on bail—his master seemed to think he was as bad as the others, or I do not think he would have had him taken in custody.

Cross-examined by MR. H. GIFFARD.Q. By going the way the wagon went would not that avoid the toll-bar? A. No; I ran by Jelf, to follow Harris—Percival was at that time on the side of the wagon—I believe Percival has been seven years in the employ of Messrs. Vivian—I have known him from a boy.

Cross-examined by MR. H. GIFFARD. Q. How many houses are there in Clark's-orchard, thirty or forty? A. I dare say there are—most of them are the same style of houses that McGregor lives in—there is no marine-store shop in that place—I have been up and down and have not seen one—I have not made inquiries for one—I will swear there is not a marine-store shop, but I cannot say whether there is a marine-store dealer's—McGregor may call himself a marine store dealer; I cannot say—I cannot swear that there is not a house in the court with "Marine-store dealer," written over the door, but I looked for one and could not find one—I pulled the bell four times, I think it was, before he came down—he seemed to be a long time coming—when I said that I had seen two lots of metal go in myself I meant that I saw it go through the court—I believe it did go in because I found the stuff there—I did not see it go into McGregor's gate—it is not true that I saw it go in, but it turns out that that was true—when I said I saw it go into McGregor's it was a mistake—Mr. Budd set me to watch—Harris is the man I followed and had the scuffle with—he has been out of town since, but there is a true bill found against him—I ran after him, seized him, and pulled him back as he was stooping, going in at the wicket gate—his head and shoulders were in, and his legs were out—there are two large gates, and this wicket is in one of them, and it was open—I did not see him open it, though I was very close upon him—the metal got scattered about, which he was carrying—there was not above one sheet inside, the rest tumbled outside—I had not a very long struggle with him—we had two or three ups and downs—I picked up 19 lbs. of metal which he was carrying, took it to the station, marked it, and weighed it by itself—several constables saw me do so—the copper was not all mixed up together to be taken to the station—I went down with this first, and weighed it before I took any out of McGregor's house—there was no snow that day, but there was a very heavy rime—the trees and everything were loaded with hoar frost—I mentioned snow to McGregor: there was snow on it, because there was

snow on the ground, and this had been doubled upon the ground—it had not been snowing that day, but the yard was covered with snow—I have not told you that when I said snow, I meant hoar frost—there were pieces of snow doubled up with it, which it had picked up in the yard, small pieces which hung to the metal; there were no lumps—McGregor's daughter brought a file with bills on it, and this bill was near the bottom—the copper that I took away, was lying at the top of other copper—I dare say there was a hundredweight or more, doubled up in the same way—my first question to him was, "How do you account for the possession of this metal? pointing to the lot; and he produced this receipt—the question in my mind only had reference to this—I knew that all that lay there could not have been brought in—I alluded to what I saw go in, and pointed to the metal—this is my signature to this deposition—(This being read stated, "When I asked him how he accounted for the possession of the metal, it had reference to the whole, about one hundredweight; the wet metal was on the top.")—I had not separated the two metals then, but this was lying on the top—I had never seen McGregor before—there was no sign of any business only inside—his dwelling-house is upstairs, over a place which appears to have been a coach-house, into which the gates open—there is a large place behind the gates—after you have got into that space there is a slight partition—it has been a large building, and is separated off—there is a ceiling over it—it is not a warehouse—there was a bed lying on the floor, and he said that was where his man slept—there were a lot of crucibles there to melt metal in, but I did not see any metal—there were lots of ashes and such stuff as that, as if it had come from some furnace—I did not empty the tuba of ashes—I went up stairs, but did not go into his room—I never heard the name of Ben brook mentioned, till it was mentioned at the police-court—I was then asked about Ben brook, and said that I had never heard his name mentioned—I said, "I do not think Benbrook is the name of the person he said he bought the metal of, the name of the person was on the invoice"—that is what I say now—I never heard him mention the name—Benbrook is the only name that was mentioned—when I drew McGregor's attention to some metal as well, he did not say that he bought it from Benbrook—the name of Benbrook was not mentioned—I drew his attention to it being wet, and he said that his man had washed it—with regard to his not appearing next day, I believe his solicitor, Mr. Cockle, explained before the Magistrate that he misunderstood what station to go to: and he may have said that would produce him next day if required—I do not remember the Magistrate stopping Mr. Cockle, saying he did not want to hear him, he was quite satisfied—Mr. Cockle, I believe, applied for the summons—I saw three lots of metal go down altogether—the second was, I believe, taken by Jelf—the metal taken from McGregor's was carried away by me and the other officer together—it was doubled up in three, not exactly as it is now, because we put it in a sack—it was weighed at the station—I mean to say that we took 32 lbs. of metal from McGregor's—we each took some—we went together to the station—I went with it, and gave some to another constable to carry—he accompanied me to the station, and then it was all put together—what we picked up on the road was in sheets, not doubled up; but we doubled it up to bring it here—we marked it first—the parcels have been kept serrate—the tail board of the wagon was down level with the bottom of the wagon—it was on chains—I told the Magistrate that it was all mixed together, because we put it together; but it was not mixed before it was marked—it was marked at the police-station—it was not mixed before

it got there, nor did I tell the Magistrate so, nor did he say it was very wrong, that I remember—I cannot swear he did not—on my oath it was not mixed before we got to the station; it could not be—this is the lot that we found on Harris, and this is the lot that we found at the house.

MR. ROWDEN. Q. Did not Preece leave the wagon and go up to the horses' heads? A. I did not see him—I swear that the corner of the wagon was not between me and him.

MR. METCALFE. Q. Was the parcel nearest you, picked up in the gate-way? A. Yes; and the other came from the house—both of them presented exactly the same appearance of frost and rime—I only brought those pieces away which had frost and snow on them—I took them away before I left the other policeman—the door was shut during the scuffle—not many minutes elapsed from the time the things were dropped, and the time I went back and found it shut—it was all done very quickly, in somewhere about four or five minutes—Harris did not shut it, because I pulled him back, but it was closed when I went back to take up the metal—the struggle continued part of the way up the court—I followed Harris rapidly through the court, and when I came back the gate was closed—at the time I asked about the metal, it was all in the box, the wet part lying on the top—it was at that time that I asked where he got them, and he produced the invoice—I do not think he took it off the file, but he showed it me—it was dated 14th November—no other in voice was shown me as covering any metal—there has been a large double coach-house there, in which a partition has since been put up—I saw the crucibles on a shelf down stairs—I did not find them or touch them—the ashes were on the ground, and in tubs and hogsheads—they looked like furnace ashes, as though they had come from a metal dealer's, and had been put there to be melted up—they were ashes with metal in them, I dare say there was a cart-load—there was no appearance of a shop or stock of any kind—the court leading to McGregor's is very narrow—there is just room for one cart to go down.

COURT. Q. From the entrance of the court to the wicket gate, how far is it? A. It is opposite—it is three or four yards off—it was four, five, or six steps from the tail of the cart to the end of the court; and from the court to McGregor's gateway, was about as far as from here to the Old Court door; and when you are out of the court it is five or six steps to McGregor's door, which is immediately opposite the end of the court—there is no appearance of a marine-store dealer's; it looked like private houses and mews—there is no shop or anything of that kind—there is nothing to show persons in the court that McGregor carried on the marine-store shop—I found no marine-store dealer's books—there were scales large enough to weigh metal—the daughter brought the file—she was standing by and heard what was said by her father—I have no doubt at all that Jelf is the person who returned from the court the second time—he returned about two or three minutes after I saw the person whom I supposed to be him, go up.

MR. RIBTON. Q. Did you ever mention to the Magistrate that the parcels had been marked so as to distinguish one from the other? A. The Magistrate asked whether they were weighed together or separate—I said that they were all put into the scale together, and weighed; but since I have brought them home, I have weighed them separate—I first weighed ail together, and it weighed 5lbs.—I had marked them first, and then doubled them up and weighed them all together—the Magistrate said that they ought to have been weighed separately—I did not then say, that the separate portions had been marked—the question was not asked me.

MR. METCALFE. Q. Have you weighed them separately since that time? A. Yes; but before that I kept them separately by means of a mark.

HENRY NATLO . (Policeman, M 118). On Monday, 7th January, from information I received, I went to Paradise-street, Rotherhithe, at 5 or 6 o'clock, and saw a van with Jelf, Percival, and Preece in it, going on towards London—I asked Jelf what was the matter—he said, "Nothing"—I said, "I received information at the station that some men had been stealing copper out of the waggon"—he said, "No, there is no copper gone out of the waggon"—Preece came up at that time, round to the back of the wagon—he heard what passed, and said, "No, there cannot be any gone, for I was at my horses' heads all the time"—I returned to the station, and shortly afterwards Gaylor came in—he and I went together to McGregor's premises—he rang at the bell three or four times—McGregor opened the little wicket-gate—Gaylor asked him if he had any metal—he said, "No," he had had no metal in that day—Gaylor said, "I know better, for I have seen one or two lots come in," and asked him where he kept his metal—he said, "Upstairs"—he got a candle and went upstairs, and in a little room od the right, on the first-floor, we found a quantity of metal—Gaylor asked him how he came into possession of it—he told his daughter to bring the invoices, which she did, and I saw one dated November 14—Gaylor said, "That cannot be it, for this metal is all over ice and frost"—I believe this to be the invoice—Gaylor said, "I shall take charge of this metal"—McGregor said that his man had been washing the metal—Gaylor said that he must trouble him to be at the police-court—we brought away the metal, which was all over ice, and rime, and frost, from the top of some more—that which was underneath was quite dry—we could not get in at the wicket-gate with-oat ringing the bell; there is no handle to turn to open it.

Cross-examined by MR. ROWDEN. Q. What were the exact words you used to Jelf when you saw the wagon come up? A. I said, "What is the matter?"—I asked him if there had not been some men stealing some metal out of his van—I did not say "Have you lost anything out of your wagon?"

Gross-examined by MR. H. GIFFARD. Q. Did you see Percival when you came up? A. Yes; he was about four yards behind Jelf, when I first saw him—when vessels' sheathing is being unloaded, there are frequently clusters of persons loitering in groups round those parts of the docks where sheathing is being unshipped; but I believe there is no difficulty in keeping them off.

Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. Did you accompany Gaylor in the chase? A. No—I did not see the struggle—the station is about 400 yards from this place—I got there between 5 and 6 o'clock—I carried some of the copper to the station the second time—I believe Gaylor carried the first lot, but I was not there—I was with him when the bell was rung—we tried to open the gate, but could not—I do not think I heard all the conversation between Gaylor and McGregor—I heard no name mentioned—I was getting the metal—it was in a little dark room—I did not see any window—there was a door about three yards from where the metal was, and 1 believe there was a door fronting the street, but up stairs—there was a pair of scales there—it was I believe a very cold day—I went into the warehouse, where the crucibles were found, and saw them—I saw a great lot of ashes which they put in, I believe, and melt down again, and from which metal is extracted—there was a furnace—there is no harm in that, that I know of—I believe one marine-store dealer lives in the Orchard—

there is a shop at the top end with "Marine-store dealer" up in large letters—I have known that some time and I knew it on that day—I did not tell Gaylor of it, nor have I told him since—I did not search the marine-store dealer's that day—I have known it two months, perhaps—I do not believe I was ever at the police-court, and said that I did not know there was one—I saw the daughter come—there is a forge or something of that description next to McGregor's, with folding gates the same as McGregor's—I cannot say whether there is a wicket gate—I believe that t here was a little snow that day in the afternoon.

MR. METCALFE. Q. How for does the Orchard run up? A. It is about twenty yards from McGregor's—that would be called in the Orchard—you have to pass McGregor's to come out of the court—you have to turn to the left to go to the marine-store dealer's—I believe that is Benbrook, the person who has been mentioned here—there are outward symptoms of a marine-store shop—I am sometimes on the beat in that district—Gaylor is a City-policeman, a detective merely—I have had very little opportunity of knowing this district—there is no outward appearance of a marine-store dealer's at McGregor's—Clark's Orchard looks like an old mews—the furnace at McGregor's is down below—McGregor lifted a few of the crucibles in his hands to show them, and opened the door of the partition—we tried to open the gate before we rang the bell—this room is not much more than a closet—it is a small place on the top of the landing.

MR. RIBTO. (to C. T. GAYLOR). Q. When you had the struggle, did the metal fall outside? A. Most of it—but some fell inside—I do not know whether it was one or two pieces—I am positive one piece did; I said one—I say two now, because there may have been two—I am not certain there were two, but I know some fell inside and some fell outside—when I came back I found the pieces outside.

JOHN BURRUPT . I am in the service of Messrs. Budd, copper smelters, 13,. Upper Thames-street—I know a vessel named the Gwalior—I had provided the metal sheathing for her in 1858, at the commencement of January in that year—I arranged with the owners, Messrs. Robert Henderson and Sons, to strip her and fresh sheath her—I transacted the business with Mr. George Henderson, and I know for a fact that the ship is his—I gave orders for the old sheathing to be brought back—it is worth 7 3/4 d. a pound in exchange, and the new sheathing is worth 9 1/2 d. a pound.

Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. I believe you put fresh copper on a great many vessels? A. Yes; I have been ten years connected with it—we have done on an average eighty ships a year, for the last six years—we take the old copper in exchange, it is weighed again when it comes to us—the foreman goes down and gives a receipt to the mate of the ship, of the weight, on behalf of the owners, and we weigh it as a check on the foreman, and if we find it materially out, we make the allowance, because in weighing it by the river, the scale is exposed to the air and it is weighed at two Cwt. draughts, but in our warehouse at five Cwt. draughts—if there is much deficiency we question the foreman, he gives a receipt, and if he is satisfied, there is no question, but if we find that the metal is short, we want to know why it is—we always give the owners credit where there is great excess in the weight if it is—deficient the owner does not suffer, but we suffer—I believe there was an excess on this day, and if so, we lost nothing—I believe more was delivered than the receipt represented—when a vessel is repaired, all the copper, most invariably, comes off, there are two other firms of importance who repair vessels—one of them might happen to repair the vessel on which our copper was originally put—they would put on

new and take our's back, but that very seldom happens—I should say the dock-master does something on his own account, but old metal would very seldom come into his hands; if it does, he generally sells it to the merchant—we do not sell old metal—it is sold very frequently and melted, but it ought not to be—I know Renuie and Marshall, they are respectable people; I should be surprised to hear that they buy it—Aston and Griffiths are large people like ourselves—I know that they buy it—I cannot say whether they sell it again—they are agents for smelters—Young and Dawson buy metal, I do not know whether they sell it again—Phipson and Co. are small people, I cannot say whether they buy it—old metal is never sold to us by the dock-master.

Cross-examined by MR. H. GIFFARD. Do you know whether, as a matter of practice, that sometimes over the actual weight is generally taken to allow for the dirt? A. My instructions to the foreman who represents Vivian and Sons, are, that they Should get fair weight between man and man—sometimes the weather is very wet, and I have frequently set questions at rest for them: we do not buy dirt, we buy metal.

MR. METCALFE. Q. Is this copper? A. Yellow metal; it is a compound—old yellow metal is a distinct article; you may call many things yellow metal—there are other manufacturers of this article, but we know of no dealers in it except the manufacturers—every manufacturer has a stamp; we stamp "V. and L." on every sheet that we manufacture—I find our stamp on this, and have identified it, and it is remarkable that it bears the mark of the substance which was supplied in 1858—I find our stamp on all that has been shown to me—we supply various qualities—it ranges from eighteen to thirty-two ounces the square foot, which our stamp denotes—the substance of this agrees with what was supplied to the Gwailor, and the specimen agrees also—I have compared it carefully—this, picked up outside the house, bears the same character as that in the wagon, and is the substance of that which was supplied—the two agree, and I believe they are the same—we have not stripped a ship, in King and Queen dockyard, since September, 1859.

MR. RIBTON. Q. Do you find any mark on that picked up outside? A. No, the mark is torn off, but it does not bear any other person's mark—we know where other people put their marks, and the corner where we put our's is torn—we supplied a particular substance in 1858, which I told the owner he was wrong in using, as it was too light—it depends upon where a ship is going, what quality they have.

THOMAS COLLEY . I live in Lower-road, Rotherhithe, and am gate-keeper at Princess Dock—the Gwalior was stripped there on 7th January—she belongs to George Henderson and Sons—I saw the metal weighed—the wagon waited outside, and the metal was brought past me—Percival was at the scale weighing it, and Jelf was beating the metal flat, on planks laid in the dock bottom—the frost and snow was swept away where they were beating the metal—I saw Preece assisting to load—he was the carman—they left about a quarter to five—the weight taken away, and which I got a receipt for, was 25 cwt 14 lb.—I was away for about two minutes while the weighing was going on, and they might possibly have put more metal through the gate at that time—of course that would be without putting it on the scale.

Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. You heard, I suppose, that more arrived than was weighed? A. Yes—the dock-master does business on his own account, as regards sheathing and repairing vessels, and a little old cop

per may at times come into his possession—if he repairs vessels he does not get the old copper which is taken off; it is sent to the coppersmith who supplies the new, but sometimes there are a few nails left in the rubbish—Aston and Griffiths do not repair vessels, but they supply new metal and take old in return—if any old copper or nails were left on the dock bottom, the dock-master would sell them to Aston and Griffiths—it is the owner who sells the old metal—the dock-master never does any on his own account so that the old would come into his possession—there are other dock-masters at other docks who repair vessels on their own account, that is what the dry docks are for, but the dock-masters do not get the old metal, that goes to the parties who supply the new—none of the old metal would come into the possession of the dock-master.

Cross-examined by MR. H. GIFFARD. Q. When you were away for two minutes will you swear that neither the clerk, the foreman, or the captain remained in your stead? A. No, they were not there.

MR. METCALFE. Q. Is the dock-master a ship owner? A. Yes; he has several ships, and when he wants them to be repaired he sends the old metal to Aston and Griffiths', and gets new—nothing is allowed to be done at marine-store dealers'—we have a board to that effect, but it is not nailed up at the gate.

COURT. Q. When you say that the dock-master repairs ships, do you merely mean that, as a ship owner, his own ships require sheathing? A. Yes.

WILLIAM HENRY POWELL . I am foreman to Messrs. Vivian, of Upper Thames-street—on 7th January, I sent Graham's wagon to the docks to bring the old sheathing away—Preece was the driver, and Percival and Jelf were two of the men—I was not at the warehouse when the wagon returned, I had left for the night—a memorandum was left by Percival, which I received the next morning—the extra weight was 26 lbs.—I have examined the metal brought by gaylor—it is all ours, and I believe it to have been stripped from the Gwalior—I have carefully examined it.

Cross-examined by MR. ROWDEN. Q. Have you frequently employed Jelf in these matters? A. Yes, he is not regularly in the service—he is an occasional labourer.

Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. What metal have you examined? A. The metal at the station, at Rotherhithe, and the metal brought home by the prisoners—many parts of it bear our stamp, but the names of some of the sheets are broken off—several pieces have not our mark—we supply many vessels with the same metal, bearing the same mark.

Cross-examined by MR. H. GIFFARD. Q. How many years has Percival been in your employ? A. He worked for us as occasional labourer as long ago as 1852—he was afterwards taken on at. a regular man in 1854 and 1855, and remained so ever since—it is the practice in taking metal from the docks to make allowance for the accumulation of dirt.

COURT. Q. Do you find any pieces of metal perfect without your name? A. No, that part is torn away—the pieces without the mark present the same features as I observe on the whole of it—Harris was in our employ as occasional labourer, Sullivan was not in our employ.

Jelf received a good character.

MR. RIBTON called

MOSES DRAKE . I live in Rotherhithe-lane, and am a foreman of shipwrights—this (produced) is a receipt—I remember it being paid by McGregor—it is a balance for part payment, the whole amount was 18s.—it was for some old yellow metal sheathing, which was sold to him, of the same.

character and colour as this metal which has been on ships' bottoms—I have sold it to him once before.

COURT. Q. Did you sell it to him? A. I went for him to come down and see my governors, Rennie and Marshall—I told him we wanted him.

MR. RIBTON. Q. Was that to tell him you had metal to sell him? A. Yes, and then he bought it—I know it was metal of this kind—I am in their employment now—it is for 13 cwt. 12 qrs. 6 lbs.—he paid me in March, for some metal sheathing which we bought of him, similar to this—my governors take it from the owners of the vessels in part payment for the new metal—they sell it, they do not melt down all they get—they would get 6d. or 8d. a pound for it—it depends on the market—I have been in their employ twelve months last October, and have known McGregor since March last—I know nothing else about him—he is a metal dealer to the best of my knowledge—I should not call him a marine-store dealer—I do not know that he buys largely for other people.

Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. Q. Do you say that the first lot in March was the same as this? A. Similar to this old yellow metal—I described it as copper, but I was a novice in the business then—it is yellow metal—this receipt in November was not paid to me, nor did I deliver the metal—Rennie and Marshall have on their premises Muntz's yellow metal principally—I do not know the marks of other metal—who they buy it of depends upon what ship we are going to do—I never noticed the trade mark on any metal I sold—the only stamp I noticed is Muntz's patent yellow metal—I did not see the metal when it was delivered, but I know it was similar to this—I saw it in the store.

MR. RIBTON. Q. Are you able to say that what you saw in store was the same sort that was sold to him? A. Yes, I am sure that what I sold in March was the same sort—I sent for McGregor in November, but did not see him—I afterwards saw him down in the yard—I am able to say that this is the same metal, because it is the only sort we had in store to sell—it is the same sort that we sold in March.

COURT. Q. What made you go down to him? A. My masters sent me down to see if he would buy—they are master shipwrights—they provide new metal, and take back the old in part payment—they sell the old metal to the manufacturer sometimes—they sell it wherever they get the best price.

WILLIAM BENBROOK . I am a metal dealer, and live at 1, Clark's Orchard—I go on board ships and buy metal of the captains or owners, that comes off ships' bottoms; metal sheathing like this—Muntz's patent has expired, and there are forty different makers now—I have been a metal collector shout eighteen years, and have sold a great deal of metal to Mr. McGregor—I recollect the Monday that this affair happened at his place; on the Saturday before that I sold him 28 lbs. of metal sheathing—I had had dealings with him before—I very seldom have a bill, and very seldom give one in ready-money transactions—I received 14s. 7d.; that is 6 1/4 d. per pound—McGregor's daughter paid me—she is a young girl somewhere about eighteen or nineteen—this is the sort of metal I sold him, it is precisely the same—he complained that it was dirty with coal dust, and 1 rinsed it in a very large tub of water, and allowed 6 oz. for the coal dust on it—Saturday was a very frosty day—I seldom or never look at the marks on metal I sell; I do not care what marks are on it—it was weighed in the scale at his place, and put on top of some more metal, in the metal room, where he keeps his metal with more of the same sort, which was dry, mine was wet—I have frequently sold him metal before.

Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. Q. Did you take the metal up stairs to him on Saturday? A.; Yes, into the metal room, which is a small room about nine feet square—I did not see a box there, it was merely put on top of the other metal—I washed it down stairs—I first took it up, then took it down to be washed, and then took it up again; I said, "I will soon alter that," and I rinsed it in the tub—I did not wash it very carefully, it was doubled up, and I left it so—there was 28 lbs., and very nearly a half, we took off the half—I got it from on board a ship, either the if kate, the Kite, or something—on the Tuesday before she was lying in the river on the upper side of the lower entrance of the London Docks—I do not know the name of the person of whom I bought it, I did not ask him—it was the captain—I paid him the money, but took no invoice or receipt—I did not think of trying to ascertain where the captain was, when I heard that McGregor was taken—I did not communicate with his attorney, but I said, "I will appear if you think proper"—I told Mr. Cockle that the ship was lying at Greenwich, and he had an opportunity of going and inquiring if he thought proper—the ship was not being stripped, she was lying in the river—the pilot told me of it—I do not know who he was, I see so many pilots in my travels, I do not know their names—I met him, and he said, "William, there is some copper on board that vessel for sale, are you a buyer?"; I said, "Yes"—I did not look at the mark on it—I do not call mine a marine-store shop, the marine-store dealers keep rag shops—I keep no books, I buy for ready money, and sell for ready money—I do not know that marine-store dealers keep books—I have not been charged with stealing from ready-furnished lodgings—I was going to receive some goods for a person, and they were charged with it; and they charged me as well—I went before the Magistrate, Mr. Maud, and likewise Mr. Traill, and they found out afterwards that I was wrongly charged—I was remanded and was to appear when called upon—that is four months ago—the person was charged with taking things out of his landlady's room—the lodging was unfurnished—I never assaulted a policeman in my life—I was never charged with assaulting anybody—I was never charged with anything else—I was in custody at the station-house with 56 lbs. of metal nails; I sent them to the vessel, I bought them of Captain Thompson, and they turned out to be quite correct—I was not taken before a Magistrate—I was in custody for a quarrel twelve or fifteen months ago.

MR. RIBTON. Q. You have found the metal business a troublesome sort of occupation, I suppose? A. Yes—it brings me into connexion with queer people—the police charged me with having the nails unlawfully in my possession—I did not take them to the vessel, but I stopped at the station while they went and saw the captain, and they gave me my property back—I sold the nails afterwards—I had nothing to do with stealing the blankets and sheets from the lodgings, but she asked me if I would get her a van to move the goods, as she had got the brokers put in for 2s. rent she owed, through spite, and was deficient of the money to pay for it—they sent a look table to a pawnbroker's and pledged it for 15s. and paid the broker—she came out with a basket and went to London by the omnibus, and because I was seen handing her into the omnibus, I was charged with her—I appeared before the Magistrate and was let out on my own recognizances; I was not even called on to give bail—McGregor's house is not exactly opposite the court leading into Clark's Orchard; you turn to the left after getting into the passage—if you cross directly over, you turn about sixteen feet before you get to McGregor's house—you cannot see the house if you are in the

passage—there is a marine-store dealer's in the Orchard, the next house to mine; mine ought to be No. 2, his is the first house—any one going there out of the passage would have to pass McGregor's and my house too—the marine-store dealer's name is Selina Harrington; I know her by sight—mine is a private house.

CAROLINE MCGREGOR . I am the daughter of the prisoner, McGregor—I recollect the Monday when this occurred about the copper that was thrown at our gate—I know the last witness, Mr. Benbrook—on the Saturday before, I paid him 14s. 7d.; a half-sovereign in gold, 4s. 6d. in silver, and a penny in copper—I knew what it was for—I saw the metal that he brought; I put the weights on the scale—it weighed 28 1/2 lbs.—it was dirty, and father said, "Mr. Benbrook, it is very dirty"—Benbrook said, "Yes, it is," and then father gave it to him, and he went down stairs and rinsed it in a large tub there—he brought it up again then; it was quite wet—it was put in a front room of the house, on the top of another bundle of metal—it was very like this piece; the same character and class of metal—I did not examine it to see marks on it; I never think of such a thing—where there were ready money transactions in my father's business, there were no accounts taken—where there are receipts, they are kept on the file—I brought that file to my father—I did not hear the conversation between my father and Gaylor—I recollect being up stairs on the Sunday, and the bell ringing—I was then sitting in the room; my father was with me. and also my mother—I heard the bell ring; not more than once—I said, "Hark! father, there is a ring at the bell, and father put the book down and went down stairs—he was reading at the time.

Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. Q. Had he been reading for some time?. A. yes, he was reading a good bit—we had tea before that; we had been sitting together some time up stairs—father commenced to read after tea—I should think we had been sitting together in that room, between tea and reading, half an hour—my father had not been out of the room during that time, that I am aware of—he had not been down stairs, to my knowledge—he did not go out of the room, to my knowledge, for I was sitting there—I was listening to my father reading a tale; he was reading aloud—he went out of the room when he heard the bell ring; when I called his attention to it—he had not, to my knowledge, shortly before the bell rang, gone out of the room and gone down stairs—I am certain, to my knowledge, he had not gone out of the room—I have got a little brother, eight years of age, who runs in and out at the gate—he cannot run in without the gate being opened from within, but when he goes out he leaves it on the jar—he went out as soon as he had had his tea—I did not go down with him—I cannot recollect my father ever moving—there is no one else in the house but my hither, mother, myself, and this child—my mother was with us in the room that day—she had not been out at all—father said to the officer, "There is the receipt of that bulk of metal that lies there"—I did not say to the officer, "And I bought some of that on the Saturday from Benbrook"—the officer never spoke to me at all—my father asked me to fetch the receipt, and then he said to the officer, "There is the receipt for the metal lying there"—the metal was lying there on a bulk of some more metal—I did not say it was bought of Benbrook two days before—there was a young man there with the detective officer, another police-constable, I believe he was, and he had got on his arm the white metal father bought from Benbrook on Saturday; he put it on his arm—I did not say that that was bought from Benbrook on Saturday—I did not hear my father say so—my father said to me, "Whom did I buy it

of?"—I did not then say, "Why, you bought it of Benbrook—Benbrook's name was not mentioned in my presence—I did not hear Benbrook's name mentioned to the officers, or to anybody connected with the case, until I got to the police-court—as soon as I got the file I retired into the kitchen—I went next day to the police-court with the attorney—my father was not there.

MR. RIBTON. Q. What police-court did you go to? A. Greenwich—I had, before that, gone to Rotherhithe with my father, that morning—the detective did not tell my father to meet him there at the police-court—I went down to Deptford with father that morning—we went to Greenwich to the Court together—we were at the police-court there at half-past 8—we found that was too early—I did not remain any time when I brought the file—my father said to me, "Who did I buy it off—I did not say," Of "Benbrook," because the policeman was jangling at the time with my father, and did not want to know whom he had bought it of—the policeman was quite satisfied—he did not want to know anything at all about it—he wanted to get away—I know the back warehouse where these ashes are kept—there is not a furnace there, or on any part of the premises—there never was.

MR. METCALFE. Q. Does your father work at Deptford as a carman? A. No; he is not a carman; he is a traveller—he did work at Deptford, but does not now—he is a metal dealer now.

THOMAS WATERMAN . I am managing foreman to Fitzer and Company—they have, at times, very large quantities of copper metal sheeting—there is Muntz's metal, Muntz puts his own initials on it—there are not several initials on it—the patent has expired—the men called floating shipwrights, are small masters—they get small jobs—the captains pay them, or the owners—they take the job and do it—if they take the ship and put it in the pontoon or a dry dock, they take the old sheeting in part payment of their work—they sell it through us—we sell it to anyone, and in any quantities; from one sheet up to ten or twenty tons.

COURT. Q. Old or new? A. New.

MR. RIBTON. Q. Do you take the old? A. Yes; we do not sell it again, unless to oblige another house; but we get it frequently from those we call the. floating builders; we buy it from them, and supply the new which they would require—I know that the old metal is sold—there are others as well as Rennie and Marshall, who sell the old sheeting: every dry dock does; there is not a yard round the river but does—they sell it themselves—there are a great many other parties besides Rennie and Marshall, who sell this old copper sheeting—I dare say they sell it to men like McGregor—I have known McGregor about three years I should think.

Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. Q. Is it not the general rule with respect to metal of this sort, that it is so valuable, that when old, and taken off the ship, it is generally taken back by the contractor? A. Yes; invariably they do—they can afford to give a much better price than collectors; but it is not at all times they would get it back; if the captain of a ship likes to sell the metal to anybody else, he has the power to do it if he gets the power from the owner—the captain would be most likely to sell to the highest bidder—I cannot answer as to whether he would prefer to sell it to people such as our's, rather than to any little dealer who would come about such things—I believe McGregor does on commission a great deal—I have dealt with him myself for the firm—I have bought metal of him—I have paid him ready money—the larger transactions have always

been through another source—the last three years, since I have known him, I have dealt with him for I should say 300l.; in the small way for himself and in the large way for other people—he sells for himself at times, and sometimes for other people—that has been going on all the time that I have known him—I have been at his premises at times—I have seen a quantity in stock; not a very large quantity.

MR. RIBTON. Q. Do you know that the captains of vessels very often sell the copper sheeting? A. yes; we do not deal in copper—it is yellow metal, this sort of metal—a great many of the captains sell that—they sell it to persons like McGregor, and persons who would give them the price for it—I do not know Mr. Benbrook.

GEORGE BOYCE . I live at 30, Paradise-row, Rotherhithe—I have known McGregor a little over two years—I let him the premises he now holds—I am not his landlord, but a sort of agent—I know him as a metal dealer—I have known him to bear the character of a respectable tradesman, and I have been in and out of the premises numbers of times—I do not collect the rents—I know a marine-store dealer's in that court, a little lower down on the road—I do not know the name—I firmly believe he keeps it—it if not Mr. Benbrook—I believe there is a board over the door.

FREDERICK IRISH . I am a metal dealer, refiner, and smelter, and live at Stratford—I have known McGregor two years—I have only known him as an honest, upright man—I have known him in the way of trade—I have had dealings with him amounting to some hundreds of pounds—I think it would go to nearly 1,400l. in the two years—I believe it to be quite 1,000l., it may have been more, paid and received; we have done business together.

Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. Q. What do you mean by "paid and received? A. I have paid him a great deal of money for goods I have purchased from him; he has paid me a great deal of money, some hundreds of pounds,' for goods which I have entrusted to him to sell on commission; and for goods which I have sold, not on commission exactly—the property which I have entrusted to his care, he has had a commission on, and then he has banded over to me the money which the goods have realized—he did not deduct the commission—we pay him that afterwards—I mean that the 1,400l. has passed between us, sometimes been paid, and sometimes received—I should say I have received from him, upwards of 1,000l., and then I have had to pay him for goods which I have purchased from him—I have received the 1,000l. for metals in various shapes; I suppose we may call it compound metal—we collect large quantities of ashes from various places—all founders do not use the same quality of metal—we put all the ashes together and extract the metal from them—after getting the metal from the ashes, we sell it to him—he sells us ashes and we sell him metal, and sometimes we buy metal from him; old nails, not metal ban—we melt the metal down—we have furnaces—he never sends us anything to melt—we have to clean down the ashes, we melt it afterwards—he does not sell us anything of this sort—we do not buy metal bars of that description, or anything of that sort—our place is at Marshgate-lane, Stratford—there is no number—I am the foreman of the firm, but I do the business—the firm is W. H. Crispin—the payment to McGregor has been through the firm, but it has passed through my hands—my master does not live at Stratford; he lives at Haverstock-hill—I cannot say whether he is aware of that sort of thing, about the ashes—we keep books—we have a book in which we have entries of transactions with the prisoner—there are books kept, not by me, in which there are those entries—those books are at, the works—the person who keeps those books is

the person who has entered the transactions, the money matters; the metal I do myself.

Q. Then you are not a refiner or smelter, but a foreman to Mr. Crispin? A. Yes, that is right—my master knows that I am here to-day—I did not tell Mr. Cockle, the attorney, that we had books in which those transactions were.

MR. RIBTON. Q. And he did not ask you, I suppose? A. No—these (produced) are Messrs. Crispin's invoices—the prisoner is in the habit of selling for them—these are in my writing—(Invoices read: "December 18th—Mr. McGregor, please to receive from W. H. Crispin, 322 pieces of metal, weighing 35 cwt. 2 qrs. 6 lbs."—"Mr. McGregor, please to receive from W. H. Crispin, 15 cwt 1 qr. 9 lbs., sample 11 lbs.)—he was to sell that for Mr. Crispin, and then pay the money back—commission to him was paid separately—Messrs. Crispin bought from him, through me—they bought ashes, and sometimes slags, the refuse of a furnace, and metal—within the last two years the amount they have paid him for metal that he has sold them, might be such a thing as 20l.—when I talked of the 1,000l. that was the metal that he sold for them to that amount, and accounted with them honestly and carefully for it—these invoices are all written by me.

MR. METCALFE. Q. Do those invoices all represent good B sent to him to sell on commission? A. Yes.

WILLIAM RAMSBOTTOM . I am manager of the Crucible Works, Deptford—I have known McGregor about two years and a half, and have always found him a very worthy character—he has been a traveller for me upwards of eighteen months—he has sold crucibles for me—I have sent them out by him, and others also have taken them out—those are the only dealings I had had with him—he has gathered the cash for that.

WILLIAM DALZIEL . I am a coppersmith and brass founder—I have known McGregor about three years—he is a very honourable and upright man—he has sold me metal; like this at various time a during these three years—I have bought it for the purpose of smelting—I have often been in his place—I know his warehouse behind—there is no furnace there.

COURT. Q. Do you know the partition before the first part? A. Yes; there is no furnace beyond the partition.

MR. METCALFE. Q. Have you been in Court all the time? A. Yes.

MR. RIBTON. Q. Has he sold crucibles to you? A. Yes—I have trusted him with sums of money at various times—I was quite aware that he bought the metal from managers of docks, foremen of docks, captains of vessels, and metal collectors.

Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. Q. What has he sold to you besides crucibles? A. Sheathing copper, ash metal, to the extent of several hundred pounds altogether within the last three years—I buy sheathing of him, what I require, not much—I don't suppose it was a sixth part of the metal—three hundred is about the quantity of metal during these three years—I mean that about 50 pounds has been of metal of this description in this shape—old sheathing that has come off of vessels—I keep books, and enter the transactions with him—I have not got the books here—I do not know where the sheathing metal is to be found—I manufacture for shipbuilders, for mounting the vessels—I cannot tell you, at this moment, where any metal of. that kind is to be found, that I bought from him—my place of business is at Pickbridge-road, Deptford—I had about 10l. worth of that metal of him in December—I have noticed Muntz's stamp on the metal—I have never noticed Vivian's stamp, nobody's but Muntz's—I know that

Vivian sells it—Muntz's is rather a large stamp, and put very prominently on it—it is an oval stamp, and is not confined to the corners—I have seen it in the middle of the sheet.

MR. RIBTON. Q. I suppose you know there is a great deal of this metal that is sold? A. Yes—I buy it for the purpose of melting it—I never attempt to look for the stamps—I may have had Vivian's stamp on the metal, just as likely as Muntz's.

MR. RIBTON to GEORGE BOYCE. Q. Was there a furnace there? A. There was—I pulled it down, as it was in McGregor's way.

MR. METCALFE. Q. What sort of a fireplace is there? A. None at all in the factory—I call both the back and front workshops the factory.

Other witnesses gave McGregor a good character. Percival received a good character.

JELF— GUILTY .— Confined Nine Months.

PERCIVAL— GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months.

PREECE— GUILTY .— Confined Nine Months.

MCGREGOR— GUILTY .— Confined Eighteen Months.


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