Old Bailey Proceedings.
18th October 1775
Reference Number: 17751018

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Old Bailey Proceedings front matter.
18th October 1775
Reference Numberf17751018-1

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THE WHOLE PROCEEDINGS ON THE King's Commission of the Peace, Oyer and Terminer, and Gaol-Delivery FOR THE CITY of LONDON; And also the Gaol-Delivery for the COUNTY of MIDDLESEX; HELD AT JUSTICE-HALL in the OLD-BAILEY, On Wednesday the 18th, Thursday the 19th, Friday the 20th, and Saturday the 21st of OCTOBER, 1775.

In the Fifteenth Year of His MAJESTY's Reign. Being the Eight SESSION in the MAYORALTY of The Right Honourable John Wilkes , LORD-MAYOR of the CITY of LONDON.

Taken in SHORT-HAND by JOSEPH GURNEY .

NUMBER VIII. PART I

LONDON:

Sold by T. BELL, at (No. 26.) the Top of Bell-Yard, near Temple-Bar.

[Price SIX-PENCE.]

THE PROCEEDINGS ON THE

King's Commission of the Peace, Oyer and Terminer and Gaol-Delivery, held for the City of LONDON, &c.

BEFORE the Right Honourable JOHN WILKES , Lord Mayor of the City of London; the Honourable Sir WILLIAM BLACKSTONE , Knt. one of the Justices of his Majesty's Court of Common Pleas *, The Honourable Sir JAMES EYRE , Knt. one of the Barons of his Majesty's Court of Exchequer +; Mr. Serjeant GLYNN, Recorder ++; and others his Majesty's Justices of Oyer and Terminer of the City of London, and Justices of Gaol Delivery of Newgate, holden for the said City and County of Middlesex.

The *, +, ++, and ~, refer to the Judges by whom the prisoners were tried.

(L) London Jury,

(M) First Middlesex Jury,

(2d M) Second Middlesex Jury.

London Jury.

Edward Curtis

John Petman

George Smith

Joseph Walton

Johnes Osburn

Thomas Goldsmith

Samuel Howe

John Peter Javellin

Daniel Ward

George Grainger

Patrick Hutton

James Biddin

First Middlesex Jury.

Luke Alder

Thomas Peck

Thomas Hawes

Thomas Walker

Robert Patrick

Thomas Jarvis

Henry Soames

Chas. Woodroff Cowse

Samuel Stone

John Lycett

John Adams

Alexander Hewitt

Second Middlesex Jury:

James Exeter

Edward Wybourn

William Cook

Thomas Metcalf

John Goss

John Berkley

Richard Dowding

Francis Earl

Robert Sugden

John Jenkins

James Bloy

John Greatorex

James Harris served part of the time in the stead of Thomas Walker

ALEXANDER TATE.
18th October 1775
Reference Numbert17751018-1
VerdictGuilty
SentenceDeath > death and dissection

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694. (M) ALEXANDER TATE was indicted for that he with a certain hanger made of iron and steel, value one shilling, upon William Bathurst feloniously and wilfully of his malice afore-thought, did make an assault, and him, the said William Bathurst , did strike and cut, thereby giving him upon his head one mortal wound of the length of two inches, and of the depth of one inch, of which he instantly died , Sept. 18th .

He likewise stood charged with the said murder on the coroner's inquisition. *

Phabe Rosmanson. I live in New Gravel-lane. I knew the deceased, and I know the prisoner. The prisoner was a runner to Justice Camper ; he had used to go to sea. The deceased had been to sea formerly, but was then a coal-heaver . On Saturday the 16th of September, the prisoner served a warrant upon the deceased for using a woman ill that he had lived with. The prisoner used the deceased very ill, in dragging him up and down the street, before he carried him to the justice. They quarrelled; upon this, after he had served the warrant, Justice Sherwood had him put into the watch-house upon the deceased's complaint of his ill treatment, and behaving ill to the justice himself. He continued in the watch-house from Saturday till Monday.

Q. Had he any warrant?

Rosmanson. I did not see any.

On Monday he was brought before Justice Sherwood at his own house. I was there from ten o'clock in the morning. When the prisoner came in, he asked the justice's pardon; the justice said, he would forgive him if the deceased would; the deceased said, he would forgive him, provided he would go on board a ship with him, that he might come into no more trouble. The deceased was going to sea, and wanted to take him with him. They were common seamen.

Q. Had they ever gone together before?

Rosmanson. I cannot say.

The prisoner agreed to go, and then the prisoner was carried over to the Virginia planters, a public house, in which they confined people, and locked up, till he could find money to discharge the justice's warrant, and such like. I fetched for that purpose, five shillings first, and four afterwards.

Q. Was that money paid to the justice's clerk?

Rosmanson. It was given into the deceased's hand, and he went over to pay what demand there was.

The deceased made the prisoner promise before the justice, that he would go with him; I saw him kiss the book upon it, and he made his compliments to the justice that he would go to sea with him.

Q. When he returned from the justice to discharge the demand, as you call it, where was the prisoner then?

Rosmanson. He was locked up there, in a lock-up room.

Q. Was the prisoner sober, or in liquor?

Rosmanson. I cannot say.

He went from the lock-up house first to his own apartment to his wife; his wife ordered me to go to him, and desire him to come out, as he did not live with his wife, he lived with Sarah Mills . The deceased went with him and his wife, the wife came out presently, and he and the deceased came out, and went down to the Black Horse. The deceased still kept with him, desiring him to go on board a ship with him. He called for a gill of wine at the Black Horse; the deceased had a pot of beer; when the prisoner had drank his wine, he laid down upon the bench, and seemed to be asleep. The deceased desired him to go on board to speak to the captain; the prisoner upon that, called him names, and said, he would not go. Then he went up to his own place again; he could not get in; the woman he lives with came out of Mrs. Gibbons's, a green shop, on the opposite side of the way, and then they went in there; there were there besides him and the deceased, Sarah Mills , Eleanor Salmon , a woman who keeps the room they were in, and another body, they call Elizabeth. The prisoner threw himself upon the bed as soon as he came in, and Sarah Mills covered him over with some cloaths, as he wanted to sleep.

Q. Was he sober then?

Rosmanson. He talked romancing and wild, I do not know, the deceased was teazing him to go on board, and said, he might come on shore again for his things.

Q. How did the deceased behave to him? Was he civil to him, or did he quarrel with him?

Rosmanson. He did not quarrel with him, he only desired him to go on board a ship.

Q. How long did they stay at Mrs. Gibbons's?

Rosmanson. They had three pots of beer, and bread and cheese. The prisoner did not drink any of it, he lay upon the bed all the time.

The deceased asked him to go on board again; he said, he would not; the deceased said, don't you know you are under my command by order of the justice; and he took out a paper, I believe it was a warrant; Sarah Mills snatched it out of his hand, and tore it; the deceased gave her a shove, and asked her how she dare do that: then the prisoner jumped up, and said, d - n his eyes, he would go to Tyburn rather than any body should hurt her. She desired Tate to come home; he went out, the deceased and Eleanor Salmon and Mills accompanied him, and he went home. I did not go into that house; I saw Sarah Mills come to the back door, in about ten minutes after they went over, with her hand bloody; I asked her how it came bloody; she said, my hand is cut all to pieces; she returned in doors immediately. The prisoner went out at the other door. Both the back and the front doors go into the street. Soon after, Eleanor Salmon came over for a bason of water; I asked after the deceased; she replied, Ellick had knocked him down; she went over with the water. I did not see any thing more for five or six minutes; then Salmon came over again, and said, Will, meaning the deceased, was dead. I ran directly over to the house, there was no one there but the deceased, who lay flat upon his back quite dead; I saw the wound made by the cutlass; it had gone in just under his breast; I run out at the back door, and just as I got out at the door, somebody laid hold of me behind, I turned round, and it was this Sarah Mills ; she said, what are you going to do? don't cry out till I have got my things away; I said, don't you see the man dead. I ran out, and she came into the street after me.

Q. Where was the prisoner then?

Rosmanson. I saw him go out of the house before, but I did not know what he had done then. I ran for a surgeon, I went to a gentleman who lives opposite Shadwell church; I don't know his name.

Q. Did you see any other wound than that upon his breast?

Rosmanson. Yes, a cut upon his forehead.

Cross Examination.

Q. The prisoner did not seem willing to go to sea, did he?

Rosmanson. He did before Justice Sherwood.

Q. Not afterwards?

Rosmanson. No.

Q. Did he not say, when the deceased went after him from place to place, that he would not go with him?

Rosmanson. Yes.

Q. Did not the deceased pull the prisoner out of bed at two different places?

Rosmanson. No.

Q. Did you see the deceased take the prisoner by the collar, and d - n his blood, and say, he should go with him?

Rosmanson. No, I did not.

Eleanor Salmon . I lodged about a month in the prisoner's house; I did not know the deceased. I know nothing of what passed till they came to Gibbon's; there were the prisoner, the deceased, Sarah Mills , Phoebe Rosmanson , and myself. The prisoner lay on the bed there, he slept about a quarter of an hour; there were two pots of beer, and some bread and cheese; they drank till it was out; the deceased went to awake the prisoner, and to take him on board a ship; the prisoner had made his affidavit that he should never be seen there again. The prisoner was unwilling to go that night, he wished to have his sleep out.

Q. Was he in liquor, or sober?

Salmon. He seemed vexed in his mind.

Q. Was there any quarrelling between them?

Salmon. No; Sarah Mills wanted the deceased to go; the deceased shewed the prisoner his discharge he had from the justice; Mills tore it in three parts; the deceased took up the pieces, and put it together again.

Q. That discharge was upon condition that he should go on board a ship, was it not?

Salmon. He shoved Sarah Mills on the breast; the prisoner came in and swore,

"d - n his eyes, he should not use his Sally so:" then he laid himself down again.

Q. Did he say nothing what he would do?

Salmon. No; he said,

"he would sooner go to Tyburn, than any body should use her so."

Q. Was she hurt much?

Salmon. Not at all; he only gave her a slight shove on the breast, then the prisoner laid down again; he laid still for about three minutes; the deceased still wanted him to go on board a ship; he seemed not willing to go; they went away from thence; Sarah Mills went down stairs first, the prisoner went down again, and the deceased followed after them; we went over to the prisoner's own house.

Q. Was the prisoner's wife there?

Salmon. Not at that time. We went into the lower room; the prisoner threw himself upon the bed again; the deceased said, Ellick get up and go on board a ship; you know I have given my affidavit for you to go on board a ship and you are not to be seen here any more; he would not give any answer whether he would go or no; then the deceased said to me, go down and see if any of the justice's runners are at Mr. Winn's, that is, the Black Horse, and fetch them up here; he said, he would have the prisoner carried to prison again; as soon as the prisoner heard those words he ran up to the chimney and took down a cutlass, he drew it, and said to the deceased,

"go out of my house directly." The deceased took up a quart pewter pot, and the prisoner cut him on the head with the hanger; the deceased held the pot up as if he was going to throw it at the prisoner, but he did not throw it.

Q. Did he hold it by the handle?

Salmon. Yes.

Q. Did he hold it the height of his head?

Salmon. Before he had got it so high as his head the prisoner struck him with the hanger on the left side of the head, near the temples.

Q. Did it bleed?

Salmon. I did not stop to see; the deceased then put both his hands upon the prisoner's shoulders and said, see what you have done?

Q. Was that in a friendly manner or a struggling way, or how?

Salmon. He wanted to get the cutlass from him I believe, the prisoner made a second stroke, Sarah Mills went between them to part them; she said, my dear mind what you are doing; that second stroke fell on the back of her hand, and cut it almost all the length of her hand; it bled a great deal.

Q. What did you do all the time?

Salmon. I was in the room, I did not know what to do; still the deceased had his hands upon the prisoner's shoulders, then the prisoner thrust the hanger into the deceased's left side; the deceased fell immediately upon his back, and the prisoner dropped the hanger upon the floor and ran out directly; I ran out and alarmed the people.

Q. Did the deceased die immediately?

Salmon. I did not go back to see.

Q. Did you see him after he was dead?

Salmon. No.

Q. Did you hear him speak after this happened.

Salmon. I did not hear him speak at all.

Cross Examination.

Q. Do you remember any thing of the deceased pulling the prisoner out of bed upon the floor?

Salmon. Not at all, I am sure he did not; he got up of his own accord.

Q. Do you remember any such expression as

"d - n your blood, you shall go on board a

"ship; I want money and money I will have."

Salmon. No; no such thing.

Q. Did the deceased take the quart pot to strike at him before he took the hanger?

Salmon. The prisoner took the hanger first.

John Orange . I am a weaver. I never saw the deceased before that day; I was with one Faulkner and the prisoner and the deceased at Mr. Winn's, the Black Horse, in new Gravel-Lane, in the afternoon at about three o'clock, which was about an hour and a half or two hours before the accident happened, Faulkner and I called for a pint of beer, the deceased said, make it a pot and I will join with you; that was agreed upon, and we had a pot; after that was drank the prisoner got up and struck

Faulkner; soon after that the prisoner went out and the deceased with him; when the prisoner struck Faulkner the deceased said, it was a malicious thing to strike a man without provocation; the prisoner said,

"he would serve him worse if he said any more."

Q. Did he make use of any other threat ening expressions to the deceased?

Orange. No, not at all.

Q. They had not been quarrelling before, had they?

Orange. Not as I know; they came in there together from the justice's.

Q. How was Tate in point of sobriety?

Orange. I believe he had been drinking a little, but was sober enough to know what he said and did: then they went out together very agreeable. I sent after the deceased for the money for his pint of beer: not knowing him, I did not know whether he might come back again: he sent me three halfpence. I went up after that to one Downes's, in New Gravel-Lane. I had not been there above ten minutes, or a quarter of an hour, before I heard Ellick Tate had killed his brother-in law. I had staid about three quarters of an hour at the Black Horse after they went away, to drink out my beer.

Q. Was the deceased his brother-in-law?

Orange. Yes. I ran down directly after him, and asked the people which way he had taken. We found him about two hours after among some cabbages and raddishes behind Vauxhall: he was lying upon his face; we turned him upon his back, and tied his hands behind him. While I was tying him, he said,

"Jack, what have I done! I have done

"murder!" Parker said, he had done so. I said he had not, in order to get him along quietly. Then he said,

"Jack, I am sure my

"hands are bloody, wipe them for me." I said, Ellick, they are not.

Q. Did he seem to be in great agitation at that time?

Orange. Yes; we brought him to the justice.

Cross Examination.

Q. Where is this Vauxhall you speak of?

Orange. In the New Road, Whitechapel.

John Barker . I was at the taking of him. I have nothing more to say than the last witness has mentioned.

Mr. Nathaniel Walley . I am a surgeon: I was sent for to the deceased upon the 18th of September, about half after five in the afternoon. I found him to every appearance dead, and I imagined he must have been dead half an hour. Mr. Calve, a surgeon present, opened a vein before I examined further. He is not here.

Q. Did it bleed?

Walley. Very little, as is common with people soon after their death just a spirt or two. There was a wound upon the side between the fifth and sixth rib: we examined it as accurately as we could: it had entered two inches and a quarter in an oblique direction, though not into the cavity of the thorax, but superficial.

Q. Do you apprehend that wound to be the occasion of the death of the deceased?

Walley. No, I found a large wound accompanied with a fracture upon the head. The substance of the brain was wounded by the instrument: it must be some instrument very sharp.

Q. Would a cutlass have made such a sort of wound?

Walley. Yes; it went into the substance of the brain about two inches and a half.

Q. What length?

Walley. About two inches long.

Q. What was the occasion of his death?

Walley. The wounding some principal vessels in the brain by that stroke.

Q. Would that occasion an instantaneous death; or would death come on by degrees?

Walley. I have known the substance of the brain wounded where a person has lived thirty days after.

Q. I believe you distinguish between the cerebrum and the cerebellum; the cerebrum may be wounded; and the party live?

Walley. Yes.

Q. The other is instant death?

Walley. Yes.

Q. Where does the cerebellum lie?

Walley. In the front of the forehead.

Q. There was a great effusion of blood?

Walley. There had been; it oozed out at the time I came.

Q. After receiving this stroke at first, he continued struggling with him upon his legs

for a minute or two, and then afterwards fell down?

Walley. I imagined the deceased to be falling.

Q. Upon the whole, you have no doubt but the wounds were the occasion of his death?

Walley. I am fully convinced within myself.

John Dixen . I am one of the people that belong to Clerkenwell Bridewell; I only prove the apprehending of the prisoner. I was along with Mr. Winn; when he took the cutlass out of the house, it appeared at that time to be very bloody all the way.

George Winn . I keep the Black Horse. The prisoner and the deceased came into my house that day they were both in liquor: the deceased insisted upon taking him on board a ship: the prisoner was much in liquor: he made a slip and fell upon some people in another box. I desired him to go home about his business: he went away directly. The deceased missed him: he had been gone about one hundred yards out of the house, when the deceased missed him and went after him: he went away without paying his reckoning; a person went after him, and brought back some halfpence. I went up to his house; I saw this cutlass lie in a closet close to the fire-side; there was some blood upon it then.

Cross Examination.

Q. Were they quiet at your house?

Winn. They drank together at the bar.

Q. Did you hear such expressions as one of the witnesses mentioned; as I will use you worse, or the like?

Winn. I was backwards and forwards; I did not hear such an expression.

Q. Has this man been frequently at your house?

Winn. He has been a tenant of mine about three years; I never saw him quarrel: the deceased kept company with and followed the prisoner's wife about.

Q. He insisted upon the prisoner's going on board a ship with him?

Winn. Yes, he said, he would never leave him till he did. The deceased was of a quarrelsome disposition.

Court. The prisoner did not live with his own wife, did he?

Winn. No, the deceased and this man's wife have been at my house together many times.

Dixen. I was present when the prisoner was taken; Paggett and I had been looking after him; coming over the fields we overtook him; he asked Paggett if we had been looking after him, we said, yes; he asked, if the man was dead; he said, yes; and you are dead I apprehend in law; he replied, if he is dead, I killed him, and I must die for it.

Prisoner's Defence:

He used me very ill; he followed me from place to place; he pulled me off the bed; he said he would make money of me on board a ship.

For the Prisoner.

Ann Gibbons . The prisoner and the deceased were in my room; there were a great many words between them upon account of the blows the deceased gave the prisoner; he made use of wilful expressions to the prisoner, he struck him twice in my own room; about three minutes before it happened, the prisoner begged him to let him have his sleep out, for he was laid down upon my bed. and the deceased pulled him off; the deceased came up into my room to avoid him. The deceased said, that he had pawned his jacket and shirt off his back, and he would have two guineas to redeem them.

Q. Was the deceased a kidnapper then?

Gibbons. I apprehend so. He said, he was to get two guineas for him.

Q. Who was there besides you, at that time?

Gibbons. Mrs. Mills.

Q. Any body else?

Gibbons. Only two girls, Eleanor Salmon and Phoebe Rosmanson .

Q. Did he make use of any oaths when he struck him?

Gibbons. He made use of a great many bad words.

Q. Do you know any thing of the prisoner?

Gibbons. I only know him by sight; he always

behaved with good manners as far as I saw.

Court. Did the prisoner make use of no bad language?

Gibbons. No, he only begged him to let him alone; the worst word he said, was, pray let me take my rest, and I will go with you any where.

Q. Who are the two girls?

Gibbons. I cannot say I know much of them.

Q. What is their reputation?

Gibbons. I fancy them to be no better than they should be; their general character is to be bad people about the street.

Court. What character does Mills bear, you called her a good woman just now?

Gibbons. She is a good woman as far as ever I saw.

Q. Who did she keep company with?

Gibbons. I don't know; she has an old man that she calls her husband.

Q. Did she keep company with the prisoner or not?

Gibbons. I am not able to say.

Sarah Mills . I unlocked the door for the prisoner; the deceased caught hold of the skirt of his coat, and came in with him; the prisoner flung himself upon the bed in the kitchen; this was at the prisoner's own house; the deceased said, the time draws on, you must go down to the ship; the prisoner made no answer. I said, Bill, for Christ's sake let him have a couple of hours sleep, then he will go, for what can you do with a man in liquor; he said; Buggor my eyes, he shall go, for there is no time to make any delay, and he pulled him off the bed upon his backside upon the ground. Ellick jumped up, and took him by the hand, and said, Will, I love you well, but if you will use me so ill as this, I will suffer imprisonment. The deceased struck him in the face, and Ellick struck again; then the deceased took a quart pot off the table to strike him, but I cannot say I saw him strike him with it; I saw him lift his hand as high as his head; then after the pot was taken up by the deceased, the prisoner took the cutlass; I saw it, and I cried murder immediately; I thought it was improper to be, I went between them, I tried to prevent the mischief; I pushed my hand against the cutlass, and got cut a lit-little, but not to hurt me.

Guilty , Death .

This being Friday the prisoner immediately received sentence to be executed on the Monday following, and his body to be afterwards dissected and anatomised.

JOHN MACGUIRE, WILLIAM WINTER.
18th October 1775
Reference Numbert17751018-2
VerdictsNot Guilty; Guilty; Guilty; Not Guilty
SentencesDeath; Death

Related Material

695, 696. (M) JOHN MACGUIRE and WILLIAM WINTER were indicted for that they in the king's highway, in and upon Thomas Quaintance did make an assault, putting him in corporal fear and danger of his life, and stealing from his person twenty-five shillings and nine-pence farthing in money, numbered, the property of the said Thomas , Oct. 13th . ++

Thomas Qaintance . I am a labouring man ; this day se'nnight about six o'clock in the evening, I was robbed between the four and five mile-stone on the Edgware road . I was on foot with a cart; the prisoner Winter came up and presented a pistol to me, and said, Stop this minute and deliver your money, or I will blow your brains out; then the other prisoner came up, and said to Winter, D - n you lay hold of my pistol, and I will soon see whether he has any money; he gave Winter his pistol to hold, then he (Macguire) took twenty-five shillings and nine-pence farthing out of my pocket.

Q. Was it light enough to distinguish the person of a man?

Quaintance. Yes, as plain as my mother gave me suck. I know Winter by his face; he said to me then, Go on, or I will blow your brains out, and then they left me. I saw them the next day at Sir John Fielding 's. I am positive to Winter; I recollected him immediately; the other prisoner I am not certain to.

Q. Did they take nothing but your money?

Quaintance. Nothing but my money, and the purse it was in.

William Ivers . I am a post-chaise driver; on Thursday last I drove a gentleman to the Three Cranes at Edgware; while I was there a gentleman came in a one horse chaise, he asked if I was going to London? I said I am, and he went away. I asked the hostler the meaning of it? and he told me, the gentleman

was afraid of being robbed, and wanted one to keep him company; I threw out the long reins and got into the chaise myself. Just as I came to the five mile stone, a man came up to the chaise and laid hold on the horses head, and another man came up to the side of the chaise and said. Holloa, who have you got here? I said only myself.

Court. You must not mention any thing of what they took from you.

Ivers. When they left me I went on to a public-house on the road, which is kept by Mr. Errington, and told what had happened. Mr. Errington and another charged two guns, and we went back in the chaise as far as the Welch Harp, about a mile and a quarter beyond the place where I was stopped; we staid there and had some beer, and as we were returning back we saw two men on the causeway; we jumped out and took them; it was then about seven o'clock; M'Guire said, if you are going to rob me don't use me ill; the other man that was with me said, no, we don't want your money, and put him into the chaise.

Joseph Errington . I live at Killburn Wells; about a quarter after seven the last Thursday evening, Ivers stopped at my door with a chaise and said he had been robbed by two men; he described them, and said, he believed we might take them; my brother and I each took a gun and loaded them, and went back with lvers in the chaise to take them; we went as far as the Welch Harp , but could see no such men; we returned back, and when we came within a hundred yards of the place where lvers, was robbed, we saw the two prisoners on the causeway, we jumped out of the chaise; Winter was walking fast; they went after him, and I took M'Guire; he asked if I was going to rob him, and said, he hoped I would not use him ill; I told him I did not want his money.

- Wilson. I was present at the taking of the prisoners; I can only confirm the evidence of the last witness.

William Barnett . On Saturday morning the prisoners were brought before Sir. John Fielding , and Quaintance charged Winter with the robbery, and said they had two pistols when they stopped him. I did not hear the prisoners say any thing; they had no pistols when they were taken; Quaintance said, he should know the pistols again if he saw them. I went with Wilson to the place where they were taken, and as near the place as possible, I picked up one loaded pistol, and Wilson another.

M'Guire's Defence.

I am innocent of the charge.

Winter's Defence.

I never saw the man in my life; I was coming along the road about nine at night, and they stopped me.

M'Guire acquitted .

Winter guilty , Death .

697. 698 (M). JOHN M'GUIRE and WILLIAM WINTER were a second time indicted for that they in the king's highway, in and upon William Ivers , did make an assault, putting him in corporal fear and danger of his life, and stealing from his person two shillings in money, numbered the property of the said William , October the 13th . ++

William Ivers . I drive post chaises ; on last Thursday evening I drove a gentleman to Edgeware , he gave me one shilling and sixpence, and sixpence for the ostler; as I was returning back, just as I came to the five mile stone, a man laid hold of the horses head, and another came up to the side of the chaise and said, Holloa, who have you got here? I said only myself; they asked what money I had? I told them only two shillings and a few halfpence, which they took from me. I asked them if they were not ashamed to rob so poor a man of such a trifle; then he who was at the chaise side asked the other if he should give it me again? he said no, keep the silver and give him the halfpence, which he did; then they went off; I went on to Erri ngton's, a public house on the road, and he and his brother charged two guns, and we went back in the chaise in pursuit of them as far as the Welch Harp , but saw nothing of them. As we were returning back we saw

both of them in the causeway. I jumped out of the chaise and came up to Winter first, but did not remember him; I said, he was not the man; when I came up to M'Guire, I knew him directly; we took them to the house of Errington. M'Guire was one of the men that robbed me; I knew his voice again as soon as he spoke, and I knew his lappel coat.

Q. What sort of a night was it?

Ivers. A cloudy night, it was M'Guire who took the money from me; I don't recollect Winter, he was at the horses head, and scarce said any thing to me.

Q. From M'Guire. You said it was a cloudy night?

Ivers. Yes.

Q. How then could you know me?

Ivers.