10th April 1865
Reference Numbert18650410-454
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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454. SERAPHINI POLIONI (), was indicted for feloniously wounding Alfred Rebbeck, with intent to murder. Second Count, with intent to do him grievous bodily harm.

(For the previous trial of the prisoner, see page 283, and for that of Gregorio Mogni, see page 449).

MESSRS. GIFFARD, Q. C., and BEASLEY conducted the Prosecution, and MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE, with MESSRS. RIBTON, and F. H. LEWIS the Defence.

FREDERICK HENRY CAIGER . I am a surveyor—I made a plan of the premises in Saffron-hill—this (produced) is the original plan—it is correct; the dimensions are made on the scale of a quarter of an inch to the foot.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Will you look at this model (produced) and tell me whether your recollection serves you enough to say if it is a correct one? A. It is quite correct.

FREDERICK SHAW . I keep the Golden Anchor in Great Saffronhill—I know the prisoner by sight—I had known him three months—I saw him at my house on the evening of 26th December—he said something to my wife as she passed, but I did not pay any particular attention to him—it was about 6 o'clock—there were five or six other Italians with him—when I was

going from one end of the bur to the other (he had been muttering something, he said he could settle any such six Englishmen as me—I did not answer him—I never spoke to the man in my life—he left shortly after this; the others remained; I did not observe where they went—I did not hear a disturbance after that; there was no disturbance until one Gregorio struck me in the mouth—that was a very few minutes afterwards—I have no idea what Gregorio struck me for—I had not spoken to him—he was in the part of the bar leading to the tap-room—I was in the bar, behind the counter—I was about to get over the bar to him, and I was pulled back by tome of the customers—he went into the tap-room—I did not go after him; I could not, they prevented—I went as far as the bar-parlour door, and I got hustled towards the street-door, leading into Castle-street—I was going out for the purpose of calling the police—I did go out—I went to the door, and saw Fawell, and as I came back from the door they thought I was going into the bagatelle-room, and I was thrust into the bar-parlour, and the door locked upon me.

COURT. Q. That was by your own friends? A. Yes—there were no Italians in that part of the bar—that was after I had been to the door for the police.

MR. BEASLEY. Q. When you went to the street-door did you see a constable there? A. I saw Fawell passing, and called him in—at that time there was a noise going on in the tap-room—I never saw the prisoner again until the police had got him in custody, and were bringing him out of the bagatelle-room into the street—I was then in the bar-parlour—he was not brought in there; only taken by the door—I afterwards saw Michael Har-rington—he is now dead—when I saw him he was at the door leading to the bar from the bagatelle-room; that is the north door, the door facing Castle-street—I raised his clothes, and found his bowels protruding all over the lower part of his body—he was taken away to the hospital—on the Saturday night before the 24th, I had turned an Italian out of the house, and an Englishman too who was in his company.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Was that in the presence of the prisoner? A. No—I have kept this house about a year and nine months—before that I was in the Metropolitan police—my house is not a good deal frequented by the police—Fawell, the policeman, had not been in the house that evening—he had not been drinking there at all—he had neither been in the tap-room or at the bar—my wife might have been in the bar when the prisoner said he could settle any such six Englishmen as me—she was in the bar—I would not say for certain what part of the bar she might have been in; if she had been at one end, it would be im-possible for her to hear what was said—I would not say for certain whether she was in the bar or not, but I really believe she was—I would not swear that she heard what Polioni said—I can't say whether she was near enough to hear it—I may have stated, "I and my wife were in the bar;"very likely she might have been—it is true that I stated before, "The prisoner made some remark to her, I don't think she took any notice"—he did make some remark to my wife—that was immediately before the remark he made to me about six Englishmen—it might have been uttered at the same moment—I have not the least doubt that my wife was present, and heard it—she is here—I think she was here at the prisoner's former trial; I am not certain—I don't think she was examined—I won't say whether she was or not—I really do not know for certain whether she was or not—I know she was here on one occasion, and she was not called—she has been living with

me since the prisoner's former trial—I hare told you she was here, but not examined on one occasion—I don't know whether she is here as a witness today—she is subpœnaed, I believe, on the opposite side; I mean for the defence—I can't say whether she is subpœnaed by the Crown; if she has been, it is within the last hour—she has not been out of the way to avoid the service of a subpoena that I am aware of; I am quite certain she has not—I know that she in here now—we have not talked this matter over; we may have merely made a remark about it, but we have never made it common talk—I am nick and tired of hearing of it; I have left off talking of it entirely—I am certain my wife and I have not talked it over; not of late; some time ago, I dare say we might—I have not had any quarrel with my wife about this matter; none whatever—since this case has been going on I have been taken up for an assault on my wife's sister—I was not Charged; I was merely summoned before a Magistrate—I was not brought up; I went up, in obedience to a summons—I dare say I knew if I did not, that a warrant would soon follow—on that occasion I called four policemen to prove that the whole thing was untrue—the Magistrate bound me over, with two sureties, to keep the peace—all the witnesses on the opposite side were Italians.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. When did this transaction take place? A. It was supposed to have taken place in the passage of the Police-court—my wife's sister was there on behalf of the opposite party—I can't say as to the date; it was previous to Gregorio's trial—I think his case was then being heard before the Magistrate—I was going to the witness-box to be examined—the allegation against mo was striking her in the breast in the passage of the Court—it was very much crowded, I had great difficulty in getting by—she was there, I believe, with the witnesses for the prosecution in that case—Mr. Negretti was in Court on that occasion. My wife was in the bar on this evening—I think the size of the bar is about eighteen feet by four—we were very busy indeed—if my wife was at one end of the bar serving she could scarcely hear what passed between me and any other person at the other end, if any one was hallooing.

ALFRED REBBECK . I have for some time been potboy at the Golden Anchor—I have known the prisoner about four or five years, known him to speak to, and known him well—I called him Seraphin—on the night of 26th December, between six and seven o'clock I was serving in the bagatellc-room—there were no Italians in the bagatelle-room—there were a great many Italians in the tap-room—I saw no others but Italians in the tup-room—there had been a little dancing there in the early part of the evening, about an hour and half before—it is called the dancing-room—I went from the bar and passed from the bagatelle-room into the tap-room—at that time I saw the prisoner there—I also saw a man who is called John, Gregorio's brother, his proper name is Giovanni Mogni—he does not play an organ; he is a frame-maker—there is a man named John who plays an organ; that is a different man—when I went in Giovanni Mogni told me to go back or else I should catch it as well us the others—the prisoner heard it; he might have beard it, he did not speak it soft, he spoke loud—I did not say anything to that, I went back—I asked him first, what for, I had done nothing—he said, "Go back, don't be a fool" and I went back into the bagatelle-room—I made a communication to the persons who were in the bagatelle-room, and in consequence of what they said to me I went out into the yard—I got out of the window—the window was open, it remained open—I got some sticks from the brew-house, kitchen and cellar, I dare say there were five or

six—there were two or three or three or four blind-roller, a copper-stick, and a broom-handle—I handle those through a cupboard in the corner of the room; it is represented on this model—it leads down into a room below, it was a place formerly used for handing up dinners or something of the sort—I did not come hack through the window, I came through the cupboard—there is a passage and some stairs running up, the cupboard has no took to it, the basement of the house is underneath—the persons in the bagatelle-room took the sticks from me before I came in again, at I was coming up—after I had got into the room I went out again into the bar for a pipe—I came back with the pipe from the bar through the bagatelle-room door (the north-door)—as I was coming back into the room I saw Mrs. King—she was going out of the door leading to the tap-room (the west-door)—I had only got just by the door, just by the cupboard—I saw Mrs. King falling as I came in; I taw her go backwards when the door was open—she fell half in the passage and half in the door, fell back like—upon that I ran of to tell them I wanted no row—I went to the door—I did not do anything with my hands till seraphin stabbed me—I went and laid hold of the door like that (describing) and Mr. King and Mellership were behind the door—I said, "I want no row here"—that place is lighted with gas, both the bagatelle-room and the passage—when I got to the door I saw Serapbin the prisoner; he stabbed me in the right side—I saw the knife after he had stabbed me, I saw him pull it out of me; then I hit him on the head with the broom-handle—it was on the form by the side of the door—he then ran at mo again—I saw the knife in his hand like that, when he came in, backhanded, with his arm up and his head down—I bobbed aside and he went past me and the door was shut—Mr. King and Mellership were behind the door; that was the same door I had taken hold of—at that time there was no other Italian in the bagatelle-room besides the prisoner—I fell half on the table with my face to the wall, leaning half over the table and my hand by my right side where I was stabbed—there was a good bit of shuffling in the room; they were shuffling about, and when I looked round I saw Seraphin a-top of Mick Harrington and I went to pull him off by the collar, I tried to do it, but I lost my senses and rolled off—when I recovered my senses again I found police-constable Fawell, 425 in the room and another one also named Elliott—I said to Fawell, "That man stabbed me"—I pointed to the prisoner—he made no answer—I was taken to the Royal free Hospital, Gray's-inn-road—some time after I had been there the prisoner was brought to my bed-side; I don't know how soon that was after the occurrence, they awoke me up; I was asleep, just in a doze—-at that time it was thought I was not likely to recover; I thought so myself—Mr. Hill the doctor told me to speak the truth as I was dying—I looked up and at the tack of me I saw Seraphini, and I said, "There is the man what done it"—the prisoner made no answer; he held his head back—I think I was in the hospital about two months—on the 26th December I wore a white billy-code or wide-awake; it was very dirty—I do not know what has become of it—I have never seen it since that night, or heard anything of it.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. What age are you? A. Twenty-two—I have passed the greater part of my life in this house, from childhood—I became pot-boy and have been so ever since—I know Gregorie—I have known him I dare say about two years, by using the house—I never knew his name—I had known the prisoner before—a great many I talians frequent our house; they work at frame-making—I don't know what the English work at; that is a rummy question to ask me—I don't

know at the same trade as the Italians—the Italians don't always dance there; they do sometimes, when they want to I suppose—the Italians do not as a general rule use the bagatelle-room—the English play bagatelle, they enjoy themselves when they want to, I suppose—the cupboard is in the bagatelle-room and the staircase is at the bottom of it—you can get from the cupboard to the staircase; it leads to the kitchen and up into the bar by the half-door and so on to Saffron-hill or Castle-street, or any part you like—this was Boxing-night; they boxed me very well too—I had not been making myself rather happy; I was too hard at work that night, too busy—I had not been very thirsty in the early part of the day—I had not been drinking—I had taken nothing—I had taken my beer; I am allowed three pints a day—I had no more on Boxing-night than any other day—I had not had my three pints at this time, I had only had two, they did me out of the other—I did not have any supper—I know Fawell the policeman—he does not come to our house often, never—he had not been in the house that evening, not before the row; I am quite sure about that—I did not see him or hear that he was there—if he had been there I dare say I should have seen him; I am in and out of the bar all the night—of course I have seen him in the house, but not that day—he does not use the house—he was there last Saturday, he brought me my paper, my subpoena—the tap-room is not a dancing-room, they do dance there when they want to—the young ladies from the neighbourhood dance there when they want to—the Italians were all in that room—I did not see them breaking up the benches, but when I came out of the hospital I saw they had been broken up—it was me who supplied the English in the bagatelle-room with their weapons—I had never done such a thing before—they were nicely convenient.

Q. You anticipated a row, and so you thought you would give the English the means of a good stand-up fight; that was the history of it, was it not? A. No; a woman came in and said there was seventeen of them with knives in their hands the night before this—that was a Mrs. Stewart—I don't know whether she is here—after I had supplied the English with the weapons, they did not go to the tap-room door in a body of six or eight and call out to the Italians to come out to them—I mean to say that did not occur; they were all sitting down there; nothing of the kind occurred—I saw Mrs. King falling—I did not see who struck her; I said so before—I did not see anybody strike her—I daren't say who it was; I saw some one's arm up—I have no doubt she was struck, from the way she fell—I did not see anybody strike her—I did not see who it was done it—I said before the Magistrate that it was not Seraphini who struck her; that was what I told you before—I don't know whether it was Seraphini who struck her—(The witness's deposition being read stated: "I saw one of them knock Mrs. King down, it was not the prisoner done that")—I know I said that; I said so before, at the first trial—I was not examined before the Coroner, only at the Police-court—I heard Mrs. King say at the Police-court that it was Seraphini that did it; after that when I was examined here on the first trial, I said, "I saw one of them knock her down; I don't know which it was—I can't say it was the prisoner, I don't know"—I say so now; I say I don't know who it was done it—I saw some one's hand up to knock her down, but I don't know whose it was—I saw her falling, and I saw some one's arm up—I did not see any thing but the arm.

Q. If you saw nothing but the arm, how are you able to say it was not Seraphini? A. I say I don't know who it was done it—it might have been Seraphini, or it might have been some one else—there was a lot morn behind

him; anybody else might have reached over his shoulder—I saw the arm go back—there were about twelve or fourteen altogether; not all coming in at the same time, all behind him, and up he went and stabbed me in the room and the door was shut, and the others were all shut out; they turned back—the others did not know he was in the room—I don't know that I ever said before to-day that I used the words, "This man stabbed me"—I daren't answer whether I did or not—I did not hear that Fawell said I did, and pointed the prisoner out—I did say it—I think this is the first time I have mentioned it; I don't know if I mentioned it before or no—I don't think I have mentioned before the fact of the prisoner being brought to my bedside—I don't know who brought him to my bedside; he was there when I looked round—he was not the only person brought; there was a lot more there—I was not asked to say which of them it was—I don't know whether he was the only Italian—I had known him so well that I am sure he was the person who was brought to my bedside—I did not see any other Italian—MR. Baldock said, "You listen to me"—he was reading a paper, what I said—he said, "Listen to this, Rebbeck, hear what the doctor says; you are dying, "and they they took him away—he said nothing else—I pointed out the prisoner myself—he was standing at the side of my bed—Baldock was not close to him; he was at the other side with the doctor—Baldock was one side of the doctor, and the prisoner the other, close to my bedside, looking over the bed, and when I looked up I saw him—he was looking down, and when I said, "That is the man, "he held his head back—I remember Gregorio Mogni being before the Magistrate—I was examined as a witness there.

Q. I will read what you said on that occasion, "I believe I said before it was not Pelizzioni who knocked her (Mrs. King) down, I am not sure; I know the prisoner—I saw him in the tap-room—I can't say whether he is the man who knocked Mrs. King down?" A. Yes; so I say now, because I don't know who it was—I was coming in from the bar when I saw Mrs. King knocked down—I saw the arm, as I came in at the northdoor from the bar; it was not in the passage; it was in the room—Mrs. King was not actually in the room—she was going out at the west-door and was knocked down into the passage; she was half out of the door.

COURT. Q. Did she fall back into the room or into the passage? A. Half in each like, not backwards, sideways; her face was towards the tap-room; towards the bagatelle-room I mean—she was more in the passage than she was in the bagatelle-room; then she went into the passage.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Did she fall with her legs into the bagatelle room and her head in the passage? A. No; her legs were in the passage and her head partly in the bagatelle-room—I saw her head—she was lying on her side—I saw no more of her that night, because I was stabbed a minute afterwards—she was lying partly in the door and partly out—if the door had been closed at that moment I dare say it would have crushed her head, and then she moved away into the passage—she pulled her head up, I suppose, I saw no more of her—at this time, the English were congergated in the bagatelle-room; I don't know how many of them; there might be fifteen or sixteen, more or less—the bagatelle-room is lighted with three lights in the middle of the room, and there is one over the bagatelle-board—there are four lights altogether—the three lights are not above two feet from the bagatelle-board—there is a light in the passage; it is a gas light atop of the water-closet—it is to light the water-closet and the passage too—immediately on seeing Mrs. King knocked down, I went to the door to tell them I wanted no row—none of the other English came forward—I did not

see any of them—I was then immediately stabbed—I had got right up to the door, because I had hold of the lock with my hand—the door was partially open and I had hold of the door, so that my body would be presented face to face to the man who was entering.

Q. Then except your own physical power there was nothing to prevent the whole of the Italians from rushing in? A. Mr. King and Mr. Mellership were standing behind the door—they did not all rush to the door—the others were sitting down in the room singing a song—I was stabbed in the side here (pointing to his right side) between the eighth and ninth ribs, I believe—I struck the prisoner with the broom-handle—when he pulled the knife out, I laid hold of the broom—handle and hit him in the head, and he ran at me again and I fell in the room and the door was shut—I went back into the room—the door closes with a spring—it is not a swing—door which opens either inwards or outwards; it opens inwards and closes of itself with a spring.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. How long after you were stabbed were you first examined before the Magistrate? A. I do not know; I think it was about five or six weeks—when I fell or leaned over the table I had gone back into the room and the door had been shut—when I was examined here before as a witness against the prisoner, my deposition that I had made on 23rd January was put into my hands, and I was asked if I saw my signature, and then it was read to me—I am not now able to say whether it was the prisoner or not that struck Mrs. King; I do not know—I believe I did tell the Magistrate that it was not the prisoner—I cannot explain how I came to say that; I don't know; I was so bad; I felt so bad; I was taken from the hospital to the police—court, and from the police—court back again to the hospital—when the other Italians turned back I don't believe they knew that Pelizzioni was in the room, or else they would have made a rush to come in with him—I suppose they turned back or they would have began pushing the door if they were there—I bad got some information about the Italians having knives, from a Mrs. Stewart the night before, Christmas—night—when Pelizzioni was brought to my bedside at the hospital he and the doctor were on one side of my bed, there was a lot of them round the bed—I saw there were two policemen and Inspector Potter; I don't know whether there were any more persons or no—when I said, "That is the man that done it, "the prisoner made no answer—he understands English—I have known him and conversed with him—he talks very good English.

COURT. Q. You say you fell towards the wall, leaning half over the table? A. Yes; with my face to the wall; then I heard a good bit of scuffling in the room, and when I looked round I saw the prisoner on the top of Harrington—I had seen Harrington all the day—I had noticed him in the room just before I saw the prisoner, not above five or ten minutes before—he was singing a song—that was the last I noticed of him before I saw the prisoner atop of him—he was sitting down in the middle of the table—the table was facing the door—that was the table near the gaslight, underneath the lights—bis face was to the door, he asked me to trust him twopence for a pint of beer—his back was to the window, and his face towards the door that Mrs. King was going out at.

MARIA KING . I am the wife of William King—I was with my husband at the Golden Anchor on the night of 26th December—Harrington and several others were there at the same time—we were in the bagatelle—room there—there were no Italians in the room while I was there—from 6 to half—past 6 o'clock I got up to leave the room to go home; I proceeded to the door of the room to go out—that is the door leading out of the bagatelle—

room to go across the passage (the west-door)—when I got to the door I was knocked down—I can say who knocked me down, Seraphini—he—struck me in the mouth with his fist—I cannot say which hand it was with—I was opening the door to go out when I was knocked down—I had got the handle of the door in the act of opening it towards me, to go out, when I was met by the prisoner and knocked down—the door opened towards me—I was opening it with my left hand—when I was struck I fell in the bagatelle-room; I fell back wards—I do not know who picked me up, but I have been told since it was my husband—I know nothing of what happened after I fell.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Then you had not actually got out of the room when you were struck? A. No—I could not exactly say how I fell, how far I was in, because I was knocked backwards into the door, and I had got the door in my hand—I had opened the door with my left hand, pulling it towards me, and at that moment I received the blow, while my left hand was on the door—while I was on the floor in the bagatelle—room I did not bear the people outside rush in; I do not recollect anything more after I was knocked down—there was not a rush before I was knocked down—I did not say so at the last trial.

Q. This is what you said at the last trial, explain it in any way you can, "There was a rush, and I was knocked down by the prisoner?" A. Yes, at the door; that was at the time I opened the door—several persons rushed behind Seraphin—I do not know that I ever knew the prisoner before—I never saw him before, but I saw sufficient to know him again—I next saw him when I was got up and the constable came, and I told him to lock him up—I did not know that any one was stabbed then—I said, "That is the man that struck me" pointing to Seraphin—he was then in the bagatelle—room, in the constable's hands—I saw no other Italian so distinct in the face as Seraphin—there was no other Italian there then—he was the only person in custody, and the only Italian—I was struck in the mouth by that man—I was examined before the Magistrate.

Q. This is what you state in your deposition, "I was going out to go home, and the prisoner met me at the door of the parlour and struck me full in the face—he knocked me backwards—he struck me with his fist—there was a rush just then when I was struck, and I was partly knocked down by the prisoner, the rush completed it, "is that true? A. Yes; I said it—there was a rush made and I was knocked down—I was knocked down by the prisoner; I could not say what was after, because I was knocked down and stunned—I never swore that the rush completed it.

Q. You said you were partly knocked down by the—prisoner, what did you mean by that? A. Because I fell right backwards when the form gave way—there was a form which stood at the back of the door, a seat with a back to it—I was knocked on that and that gave way, and I went down.

COURT. Q. Where did the form stand? A. Facing the door as the door opens; not behind it, facing it—I can't tell how far from the door it was; I never measured it—it was far enough from it for the door to open—I don't understand this plan—the form did not lean against the wall—I think you could pass between it and the door if the door was wide open—it was a moveable form—I had hold of the handle of the door with my left—hand, going out, when I was struck—I was sideways to the door—the door would not screen me, I stood more for going out, I was not opening it so wide.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. Whereabouts in the passage was the prisoner at the time he struck you? A. He was at the door—he was between the two—

doors, in the passage—there were some others behind him—nothing passed between us before he struck me—when I got up I went out, and Mrs. Shaw sent me down into her kitchen—I went out by the door against the bar—parlour; that was afterwards—at the time I left the bagatelle—room I do not know whether the door I had been trying to get out of was shut or open.

WILLIAM KING . I am the husband of the last witness—I am a bone—button manufacturer—I was at the Golden Anchor with my wife on the night of 26th December last—I remember my wife getting up to go home—we were having a bit of a concert to ourselves in thebagatelle—room—Harrington sang a song before my wife got up to go home—I was sitting near the table, about a couple of yards from the door—when my wife got to the door I saw her knocked down—from the position I was in, I was not able to see who did it—I went and picked her up—I saw the prisoner there—I pulled him off atop of Harrington—he was the first that came in the room—he came in very shortly after my wife was knocked down; I don't know exactly how soon after; he followed soon after she was opening the door—I saw her knocked down, and I ran and picked her up, and I was knocked down myself behind the door, and when I got up again I saw the prisoner on the top of Harrington—I Was knocked down after I had picked up my wife—I can't say whether the door continued open or whether it was shut—I was only down a few seconds—the door was shut when I got up—it was then that I pulled the prisoner off Harrington—at that time there was no other Italian in the bagatelle—room besides the prisoner—no Italian besides the prisoner got into the room.

COURT. Q. When you saw your wife knocked down, was there any Italian in the room? A. No, he had not come in the room then—there was no Italian in the room.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. Did you keep hold of the prisoner until you handed him over to Fawell, the constable? A. Yes—I don't think any one assisted me to hold him—I got him by the collar—I could not say whether any one held his hand.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Do you mean that up to the time you were knocked down there was no other Italian in the room but Seraphim? A. No, there was not—the door was pushed to as soon as I was knocked down—at the time I was knocked down there was no other Italian in the room but the prisoner—it was the rush at the door that knocked me down, but they were knocked back again—there was a rush at the door, and there was a person got in—I was behind the door, trying to hold the door—Seraphini did not knock me down, it was the rush at the door—no one got into the room, because I was up again in a second—I was pushed down by the door being pressed against me by the persons outside—before I got up not one of the other Italians bad got in. (The witness's deposition before the Magistrate on 27th December being read, stated: "There was a rush of persons into the room. The prisoner and other Italians came into the room; there was a scuffle, and I was knocked down")—I contradicted that the last time. I believe I did not say that; it was a misunderstanding, as I said before; I contradicted it on the former trial—I picked up my wife at the door of the bagatello—room, inside the bagatelle—room—I did not say before the Magistrate that I followed her out and picked her up; she was knocked down in the bagatelle—room, and I picked her up in the bagatelle—room.

COURT. Q. You were behind the door? A. Yes, trying to keep it closed—I could not say exactly how near Mellership was to me—I believe he was

on one side of the door, and I on the other—he was trying to hold it as well as me, I believe; I could not say exactly.

RICHARD MELLERSHIP . I am a button-maker—I live in Birmingham now—I did live at 42, Cold Bath-square—on the night of the 26th December, I was at the Golden Anchor—I was in the bagatelle-room between 6 and 7 o'clock—Harrington was there at the same time with me—he had been sitting by the side of me—he bad been singing a song—just after he finished bis song there was a disturbance in the room, and the Italians rushed in—there came a rush at the door, and one came in at the door—that was the prisoner—no one else rushed in besides him—there was an attempt made to get in, but they were forced back—there were two or three behind; I could not see who they were—no one else got in besides the prisoner at that time—I was standing just inside the door, about a yard from the door, keeping guard—when the prisoner rushed in he struck a side-blow as he rushed—I did not see anything in his hand—he struck a side-blow, and Harrington fell to the ground—he struck the blow as he came in—I don't know that he made it at any one in particular; it went near Harrington, and he fell—my wife caught hold of me and pulled me away to the other side of the room.

Cross-examined bv MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Did the prisoner come in alone? A. He was the only one that got into the room—he struck a side-blow with his hand as he came in, upon Harrington—Harrington was close to the door, hardly a yard from it—he was the nearest person to the prisoner when he came in—the door was forced open by the rush; nobody opened it from our side—if anybody had opened I must have seen it; I was close to it—I will undertake to swear that nobody did open it—I can't be mistaken about it—I mean deliberately to swear that nobody in the room opened the door; the one that came in opened the door—he pushed it open—that was the prisoner—he was the only one in the room—the door was forced to and the others were kept out; I swear that—(The wilness's deposition being read, stated:—"The prisoner rushed in first—there were several other Italians behind him—when the Italians came into the room the deceased had just finished singing a song, and the prisoner without having a word, struck the deceased and he fell")—only one Italian came into the room—there is no mistake on my part—that was all I ever said, and all I know about it—if I said "Italians "came into the room, I was mistaken; they rushed, but he was the only one that got in—the last time I was here I did not make that statement—I don't think I ever made that statement about "Italians"—I signed my deposition—I put a x to it—I said the Italians made a rush, but only one came into the room—I did not say what in put down in that deposition—I did not say the words you say—no Italians got in, only the prisoner—I did say, "the prisoner rushed in first, there were several other Italians behind him"—what I meant, was that they were behind the door, outside the door—I swear that that was what I meant—if I said, "When the Italians came into the room" it was a mistake—there were Italians who made an attempt to get in—if the word is there, of course I must have said it—I meant that the Italians made an attempt to get in and only one got in—I can hardly account for the use of the word—I knew afterwards that the case was that only one got in, and that was all that did get in, and that was the one the policeman caught.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. Did you ever say anything about the policeman having caught one? A. No—it was King that secured him and gave him into custody of Fawell, I think his name is—I saw Mrs. King start to go out of

the room, she was knocked down—I cannot say who knocked her down—the next I saw of her was in Mr. King's arms—I should think that was not a minute before the door was forced open.

JOHN LIDDELL . I am a French-polisher—I was engaged at the Golden Anchor on 26th December at my ordinary work of French-polishing—I had been engaged there that day—I was in the bagatelle-room between 6 and 7 in the evening—my work was then finished for the day—I sang a song—I was the first that sung, and then Harrington sang one called the "Ship's Carpenter"—just after he had finished his song I saw Mrs. King in the act of going out of the room—she went out, passed the door, as it were, and in less than a moment she was on her back, knocked down by some one—she could not have been knocked down by any one else but Seraph mi Pelizzioni, because he was the only man that entered the room—I did not see the hand that struck her, but that was the only individual—I did not see him strike the blow—her husband went and picked her up—he returned back into the room, and Seraphini was in the room, and he made a blow at Harrington in that way (describing it) and he fell on him and I was one of the parties that struck Seraphim with the blind-roller which was then in the room—there was an attempt made by several other Italians to get into the room—no other besides the prisoner did get in; they attempted or endeavoured; the first one who was the leader of the lot behind was struck on the shoulder—I believe that was Gregorio's brother, the man that plays the organ—they call him "John"—the rest all flew back—by whom he was struck, I do not know—I do not know what occurred at the door—when they were forced back they slammed it to, of course—the door shut to, because it was on a spring hinge—I mean the door leading from the passage, which divided it from the tap-room—it closes by a spring hinge, which causes the door to close every time you open it—it does not fasten into a socket, it only closes to—I saw the prisoner make a side-blow at Harrington, and saw Harrington fall—he said, "I am stabbed"—I believe I have known the prisoner by sight upwards of two years—I did not know him by name—I have seen him in the house—I have worked in the neighbourhood twenty-five years, and I have worked for the Italians; I believe Mr. Negretti knows it.

Crass-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. You are quite sure that only Pelizzioni came in, and no other Italians? A. No other Italian was in the room at the time the man fell—I have been taking something to day, not a little too much—I was not drunk on that occasion—I did not have the amount of three pints of porter the whole day; I should not think that would be likely to affect me—I positively swear, so help me God, that no other Italian came into the room at the time that affair occurred—I have no vindictive feeling against the prisoner, but I am perfectly positive, solemnly positive, and always have been, no other came in with Pelizzioni—I was quite positive about it the next day—(The witness's deposition being read, stated: "Several other Italians followed the prisoner into the room")—I beg leave to say my evidence before Mr. Baron Martin is very different to that; I used the word "attempted, "and I used it at the police-court, the deposition is facts, and what was written wrongly at the police-court I can't account for—that is my name and handwriting—what I said was that several other Italians attempted or endeavoured to follow the prisoner into the room; if the reporters did not put it down correctly they are wrong—the Italians followed behind, but they did not come inside the door of the bagatelle-room—I did not say they followed the prisoner into the room, they followed into the passage—they followed him out of one room into the

passage until they got to the bagatelle-room door, where the woman wan struck—I am answering your questions—I do not think to beat you, you are an educated man, and I am not, but I will not be beaten, I speak the troth; I am not excited—I am not always as cool and collected as I am now; not when I get with such educated persons as you to excite roe, because it is very exciting; you do excite me very much—I was not excited in the bagatelle-room, I had not had sufficient to be excited—I have not been drinking now; I have had a glass of porter it is true, possibly you have had a glass of wine, which is stronger, but I am not excited—(The Court cautioned the witness to answer properly and respectfully)—several other Italians attempted to come into the room; they followed as far as the passage, only attempted, that was the leader behind Seraphini, Gregorio's brother; he was the first—I did not say before the Magistrate that several other Italians followed the prisoner into the room; they attempted—I did not say what is put down—I altered it when it was read over to me here—I am not aware that it was read over to me by the Magistrate's clerk; (it was read over at the hospital)—I can't say positively; I really forget whether it was read over to me, but I know positively that I never asserted such a thing—I sang the first song, and Harrington the next—Pelizzioni got into the room by the rush, rushing into the room; there was some row at the first onset in front of the door, or the tap-room, but I could not see through the door—I suppose he got into the room on his legs, how could he anyhow else? he rushed into the room, and there I saw him—none of us opened the door, certainly not, when I was standing inside and poor Harrington on my right not five feet away from me—nobody opened the door, it came open through Mrs. King falling down, in a moment, and he was taken out in two moments—it came open by Mrs. King falling down, it has got no latch to it; her bead or some portion of her frame must have come against it to knock it open; it might be her shoulders, I don't know—I saw her fall against the door, and that knocked it open, decidedly; I should think a woman of her weight would knock it open, or almost a kitten would—I am positive that was so.

Q. Then I am afraid she was knocked down, or fell, before Pelizzioni came in? A. How could she be, when no other man was there but him—the woman was not intoxicated, she was knocked down by the party that came into the room; that party was Seraphini Pelizzioni—the door was not opened till she fell against it; she was knocked against it, and that opened it.

Q. How could that open it if it opened inwards? A. She must be out-side must she not, and when the door flew open she was the woman that was knocked against it—there are two sides to a door—she was not knocked against it inside, but her head came partly inside—she must have been knocked against the door from the outside, not from the street, from the passage, and that knocked the door open, and a portion of her was knooked into the room, perhaps her head, or her head and shoulders; at all events, enough of her for me to see that it was Mrs. King; her shoulders might We come in, I don't remember; if I saw you knocked down, and saw your wig knocked off, I should know your wig from your hair—I am giving straightforward evidence—she was pushed down, or hit in some way so that she fell on her back—she was inside the room before the door was open—she was in our company; she went out, saying, "I am going home; "she went to go out, and did open the door, and the door slammed to again, and then in a moment she was knocked down, and the door flew open.

Q. That was it, was it; I thought you said Seraphini knocked her down? A. I said the first man that entered the room was the man that knocked her down; I don't know his name, although I have known him two years—I had not been in the tap-room in the early part of the evening; not half-an-hour before—my business was confined to the bar the whole of the day—I was French-polishing the window-boards—I did not see any policeman there—I saw no policeman inside the bar, not till the policeman was called in—Mr. Shaw, the landlord, called him in.

Q. Just attend to this: "There happened to be a private policeman there, and he fetched another one in uniform, "that was what you said on the last trial; what did you mean by it? A. Mr. Shaw said there was a private policeman, it was what I was told; I did not assert it, it was what I was told—Mr. Shaw said the private policeman was there, just in the bar or outside, or somewhere; he was not in the bar; there was no private policeman in the bar—I have known that private policeman these twenty-five years, his name is Richard Fawell.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. Was Fawell in plain clothes or in uniform when he came in? A. In plain clothes; that is what I mean by a private policeman—I was in the bagatelle-room when Fawell came in, and at that time he was in private clothes—Mr. Shaw told me he had sent for him; that was what I said at the last trial—at the time Mrs. King got up to go I was in the bagatelle-room, standing as near the bagatelle-table as possible—I don't know how she got out—I saw her go across the room and go to the door—I saw her knocked down—I heard a noise, which caused me to look round, and I saw Mrs. King on her back; that was the first I knew of the row—I had not moved at that time from where Harrington and I sat together.

Q. At the time you saw Mrs. King on her back was the door shut or open? A. When I saw her on her back it had flown open, but when she went out, it closed after her, and presently I saw her on her back—between her going out and the door closing and flying open again when she fell back into the room, was scarcely a minute I should think; I could not say exactly to a minute—the next thing I saw was that man Seraphini, or a man whose name I did not know then, I know him now, I mean the prisoner, jump over as it were, and he rushed at Harrington in that way, and Harrington fell, and said, "Oh, I am stabbed"—I saw the prisoner make a kind of jump over Mrs. King as she was lying on the ground, and then King runs and picks up his wife; King came from close behind one of the seats, the seat nearest the door; he was on the opposite seat to me; in a second the police came, and took the prisoner in hand; King was the man that lifted him off Harrington; I had no time to do anything—I followed him out to the bar when they were taking him out through the private-bar, and then the potman rebbeck threw himself in my hands, and said, "Oh, MR. Liddell, I am stabbed"

GEORGE STANLEY . I am a painter, and was in the employ of Messrs Banting, of St. James's-street, before I got the sack on this occasion—I was at the Golden Anchor on Boxing-night; I had been there pretty nigh all day—I did not particularly make friends with any one there; there were other persons there—I was in the bagatelle-room—between 6 and 7 in the evening I heard a noise in the tap-room; upon that I went out of the bagatelle-room into a little street, I don't know whether it was Castle-street or not—I went out of the door leading into the bar-parlour, and then out into the street, and went round to the door opening into Saffron-hill and entered again at the door leading into the tap-room—I went

into the tap-room—I saw several Italians there; they were breaking up the forms and seats—there were three or four standing against the table; I can't say whether they were breaking up, they were in the act as I thought of doing so; I can swear that I saw one or two breaking up forms, some of them had got pieces of wood in their hands; they seemed to be crouching towards the door leading to the bagatelle-room—they said something in Italian, but I did not know what it meant, at least they told me to go out: they said, "You had better go out"—I did go out, and went into the bagatelle-room, exactly in the same way I had come, and I told the people in the bagatelle-room what I had seen—when I got back there was no Italian in the bagatelle-room, not one—I will take my oath of that—I had not been absent more than six or seven minutes I am sure—I saw Mr. King in the bagatelle-room; he placed himself behind the door—I saw Mrs. King go out of the bagatelle-room; I can't say who opened the door, but I know die went out, and she came tumbling back, but I can't say who struck her, or whether she was struck at all; she came tumbling back in some way or other, whether shoved or struck I don't know; she fell into the bagatelle-room—I saw Rebbeck go into the tap-room with a pipe—I did not see him come back into the bagatelle-room—I saw him in the tap-room—I don't (mow how he came back—I saw him afterwards standing up in one corner of the room with hishand on his side, but I did not know whether he was stabbed then or not—before that I had heard him say, "I will have no row here, "or something to that effect; that was after he left the bagatelle-room to go into the tap-room—I saw Polioni when he came into the baga-telle-room, that was after Rebbeck went out with the pipe—I saw Polioni come in, and make a sort of a side-thrust at Michael Harrington—I did not see anything in his hand, I merely saw that—I could not exactly judge the distance he was from Harrington—Harrington was facing the door, and Polioni rushed at him like that; I believe Harrington tried to make a grab at him, and he went like that (thrusting)—Harrington had nothing in his hand; he made an attempt to catch him, and he twisted and went down on his side, and Polioni made a rush to get out at the door, and Bannister being in his way he made a strike at him, and Bannister rolled on to the bagatelle-board, and fell down at my feet, and said, "Look out, Painter;"Bannister said that after he was stuck in the hand—I did not see Rebbeck at that time—I looked round, and saw Bannister lying under the bagatelle-board, with some blood coming from his hand; I can't say which hand.

Q. Did you do anything to Polioni? A. If I had not done something to him I suppose he would to me—I struck him on the head I believe, with a piece of wood—he fell on Harrington, and then the piece of wood I hit him with broke, and I had nothing more to defend myself with, so I got out the window and out of the yard and went to fetch more assistance—I asked some to come and they would not—I went back exactly the same way, an got in at the window again—I saw Harrington there—I asked him what was the matter—he did not make any statement—Polioni was gone then—King and Mellership had got hold of him when I went out of the window—up to that time no other Italian but Polioni had got into the rooui; none whatever, if I was to die this minute.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. I suppose you were examined before the Coroner and at the Police-court? A. I was not examined before the Coroner—I was examined at the Clerkenwell Police-court—I was examined on Seraphini's former trial, not on the other—I was examined for the prosecution.

Q. What did you mean by saying this, I cannot quite make it out, "I said to King, 'Open the door and let them come in one at a time,' "did you say that? A. Yes—I said we were bound to do them, to beat them—I thought that was the best way to beat them—we were prepared with broomsticks and other articles of a similar description in our own defence—I can't say whether all of us were armed; I am sure I was—I don't know that Rebbeck had brought us arms; some one did; I don't say Rebbeck; I can't say who did—some one gave me a stick, but who I can't say—some one brought in some sticks, and laid them on the bagatelle-board, and I took one up, I can't speak for others—I can't say whether the others were armed or not.

COURT. Q. Did the person who brought up the arms bring them up through what is called the cupboard? A. I can't say—I should not like to take an oath.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. You did say to King, "Open the door and let them cone in one at a time?" A. Yes—that is quite right—that was before Seraphini had come in at all—I believe King did open the door—I am sure he did, a little way, and Seraphini came in and the door was shut; King shut it immediately—whether it was opened again I can't say, my eyes were upon Seraphini—what he did afterwards I can't say.

Q. Then your version of the story is, not that the door was pushed open by Seraphini and the people outside, but that King opened it? A. That I can't say—whether the door was pushed in or Seraphini was pushed in; I can't say; he came in one way or the other—I will swear Seraphini was the only man in the bagatelle-room—we took good care he should be the only man—we thought that was the only way to beat him—he would have beaten us if we had given him the slightest chance—we did not get him in, he was shoved in, or he came in at all events, and I hit him on the head, bat before that he made the thrust at Harrington—I told King to let them in one at a time, because when I was in the tap-room I saw there was a lot, so I thought I would let them in one at a time and beat them in detail—what was the motive of their coming into the room if they did not mean mischief?

MR. GIFFARD. Q. You had seen the Italians in the tap-room breaking up benches? A. I had—I should think there were fourteen or fifteen Italians there—I told the people in the bagatelle-room what I had seen, and then I took hold of a weapon as soon as I got in; they laid across the bagatelle-board—I saw Mrs. King go out of the room, but she came tumbling back.

Q. Did you see King open the door, or do you suppose that he opened it? A. He was standing behind the door—I did say that he opened it, but I should not like to swear whether he did or not—it does not matter who opened the door—whether the door was pushed open or whether he opened it I don't positively know; it is a very hard thing to say—at the time Seraphini turned to go out of the room, Bannister was between him and the door, so that he should not get out.

Q. Are you able to say positively whether at that time any other Italian was in the room? A. I am sure, if I was to fall dead on these steps this minute, there was not—I am telling no lie, if I am may God strike me dead—Seraphini was in the room when Harrington fell, and no other Italian—he struck Bannister, and Bannister rolled under the bagatelle-board, sayiug, "Look out, Painter"—they call me "George the painter."

COURT. Q. Did you know the prisoner before? A. No—I saw him plainly—that was the first time I had seen him—of course he was in the room long enough for me to notice him; I could not see him before; I could not

see him in the tap-room—the first time I saw him was in the bagatelle-roem, but I am quite convinced about the man.

CHARLES BANNISTER . On the evening of 26th December last I went to the Golden Anchor, between 6 and 7 o'clock—that was the first time I had been there that day—in consequence of something that was said to me at the bar I went into the bagatelle-room—I went from the bar. from the Castle-street entrance; that would be across the end of the bar and the barparlour—I know the half-hatch which is between the inside of the bar and the tap-room—a person in the tap-room could see me going across the bar into the bagatelle-room—I did not see Mrs. King go out—about three or four minutes after I had got into the bagatelle-room I saw the Italians rush towards the door to push it open—I mean the bagatelle-room-door leading to the tap-room, the west-door—they did not get further than the door—the door was thrown wide open, but Seraphini was the only one that got right into the room, the others got no further than the door—when the door was wide open the fight began at the door—the moment Seraphini got into the room the door was closed—he was the only Italian I saw in the room at the time, the others got no further than the door, and when the door was closed he was the only one in the room—I know no more, I made it my business to get out of the room—I was stabbed—I don't know who it was stabbed me—I was standing in between Rebbeck and Harrington—I can't say how I was with reference to Seraphini—we were standing all within about two or three feet of the door, very close together—I was stabbed in the right hand with ft knife—the knuckle was cut of the little finger—I have lost the use of my finger—I was knocked down—I laid first on the table and from there I think I fell under the bagatelle-table or close by—I spoke to Stanley and said, "Stanley I shall get out"—the prisoner was then in the room, he was being held down by King, or King had him in hand.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Will you show the Jury where you were out? A. Here (showing it)—the doctor the it from here to there to take the knuckle out—I did not see how or where the man who stabbed me was standing at the time he did it—I did not see him raise his hand, or anything, before I was stabbed—I did not put up my hand to protect myself that I recollect—I was examined before the magistrate at Bagnigge Wells police-court on 23rd January—I was not called upon the first trial; I don't know how that was—I was waiting outside the door on the first trial, but was not called in—I did not hear from any policeman why I was not called—I have never heard why I was not called—I have been told several things, but I never thought they were facts—I think I know Inspector Potter; he did not tell me, nor did any of the constables—I was not bound over, I was here on subpoena.

Q. I will call your attention to what you said before the magistrate, "almost as soon as I got in, a number Italians, of whom the prisoner is one, rushed in; "have you no idea now, why you were not called? A. If I was not called in, it was not my fault, I was outside—the Italians rushed to the door, the door was wide open and the fight was against the door, perhaps it may be in the room or it may be out of the room, it was at the door—a number of Italians rushed to the door but the door was closed, and when I got up off the ground Seraphini was the only one in the room.

Q. Is it true that a number of Italians, of whom the prisoner was one, rushed into the roem? A. They rushed to the door and tried to get in but they did not—I said they rushed to the door, I think that was what

I said in my first evidence—the door was thrown open and the fight began at the door; that was where all the mischief was done—I stated that before the magistrate, Mr. D'Eynconrt.

Q. Have you not expressed a doubt as to whether Seraphini was one among the first who first came up? A. Well, I do not say that I have not.

COURT. Q. Have you expressed any doubt whether Seraphini was one of the persons that got into the room? A. No, I have not.

MR. SERJEANT BALLAKTINE. Q. Have you not expressed a doubt as to whether Seraphini was one of those who first came up? A. I have I know; I know that I have.

Q. Did you not say to a policeman that you doubted whether it was Seraphini, and did not the policeman say to you something of this kind, "Oh, d—it, you funk, do you?" A. Yes, that was said to me at the Police-court; it might have been by a policeman in private clothes, I was in Bagnigge Wells-road, and there were several others, policemen I fancy, one of them said to me, "Well, Bannister, I think you are funking on this case, you are afraid of the knife, but it don't matter what you say, Stanley knows all that you have got to say."

COURT. Q. What bad you said before that? A. I had said nothing—I had said nothing to any policeman, nor to the magistrate—I did express a doubt whether the prisoner was one of those who first came up—I can't say exactly when I first expressed that doubt—I have said it I think several times—I have said to several that I was not exactly sure, because I thought at that time two or three of the Italians were so much alike, I did not exactly know one from the other.

Q. Had you expressed that doubt before the man in plain clothes, whom you thought was a policeman, said this to you? A. To tell you the truth I did not care much about speaking to policemen; it might have been a policeman in private clothes; before he spoke to me I had not expressed the doubt I now mention, to anybody; I think that was the first person I spoke to, and that was the second or third morning after the affair.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Was it after you had been examined, and made the statement, that I have read to you? A. Before; it was not said in the presence of policemen, only those in plain clothes—I think it was in Bagnigge-wells-road; at least, it was close against the Police-court—there were no policemen near that I am aware of—I had come from the hospital, and was going towards the Police-court, and I met with some gentlemen, as I thought they were, they might have been policemen; they spoke to me, and said, "Good morning, Bannister"—I said. "Good morning, "and they said to me, "How is this case going on?"—I said, "I don't know, "and one of them, chaffing, said, "Oh, I think by what I hear, you are funking a bit on it, but it don't matter; we have got the witness Stanley; he knows all about it, don't he?"—I said, "I think he does; he is a young friend that spoke up for me"—I have never seen those persons since—I expressed the doubt as to whether Seraphini was the person, long before I went to the Police-court, to my mother and several others.

COURT. Q. When you say you expressed a doubt whether the prisoner was one of the persons, are we to understand that you have a doubt in your own mind whether he was or not? A. Yes, I have a very great doubt.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. When first did you ex press any doubt? A. I think it was on the next morning, the first time—I was asked by my mother when I went home, "Whatever is the matter with you?"—I said, "I am stabbed

in the hand"—she said, "Who stabbed you? and I said, "I don't exactly know"—she went over to a public-house opposite our place, and some one told her about it, and that Seraphim was locked up for the case, and she said, "Was it Seraphini stabbed you or not? "and I said, "I am not sure whether it was Seraphini or not"—that was what I said before the Magistrate; that was the only doubt I spoke of, because I could not say which man it was—I know I was stabbed, but I can't say who it was thai stabbed me—I saw Seraphini in the room; I have no doubt whatever about that; he was the only Italian in the room when I got up off the ground—I saw no other Italian but him in the room that night—I saw him at the time I saw a number of Italians at the door—I have not the least doubt about that; I saw him at the door then—that was not when I was looking over the dwarf-door—I was in the bagatelle-room within about a foot, or two feet, of the door when it was thrown open, and he passed in—I saw who was in the passage, because the door was thrown wide open, and the light from the centre of the bagatelle-room shone right on their faces—they were prevented coming into the room—I think they were knocked back by two or three English chaps; there was Stanley and young Raffell, I think they were the two that used the sticks, and I had a stick, and we kept them back the tat way we could.

Q. Are you able explain how it was that Seraphini managed to get into the room? A. I think there were only two or three of us when the was first pushed open, and the English chaps were a little bit timid or frightened, and ran away, to left the door, and allowed them to push into the room, and I think when they found we had sticks, and two or three had cracks on the head, they stopped a bit—I don't know whether I was exa-mined before the magistrate the same morning that I had the conversation with the persons in plain clothes in Bagnigge-well's-road, but it was after wards, and I was then bound over to appear at this Court—I attended here it the last trial on my subpoena ready to be called; why I was not called I do not know.

WILLIAM ELLIOTT (Policeman, G 137). On 26th December last I was Called by Fawell, another policeman, into the Golden Anchor—I was in uniform—I went from Saffron-hill into the tap-room—there were a number of Italians in the tap-room, and in the passage—the door leading out of the tap-room into the passage was open when I went in—the door from the passage into the bagatelle-room was shut when I got to it—Fawell went in with me—I put ray shoulder to the door, and forced it open—when I got in I saw the prisoner, and the witness King having hold of him by the collar—at that time there was no other Italian in the room—I and Fawell took him into custody.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Where were you fetched from? A. From Saffron-hill, just opposite the Golden Anchor—Fawell fetched me.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. Were you on duty in Saffron-hill that night? A. Yes; I was on duty when Fawell came up to me—I was standing against a post when he came across to me, apparently from the house.

RICHARD FAWELL (Policeman, A 425). On the night of 26th December last, I was passing down Saffron-hill—I was in plain clothes—Mr. Shaw beckoned to me—he was standing at his door—in consequence of what he said to me I went into the tap-room—I saw a number of Italians there fighting together, breaking the forms; they were all striking at one another; I think it was fighting—I got out as soon as I possibly could, and saw

Police-constable Elliott, G 137, on the opposite side of the way—he and I went first into the tap-room, and from there into the bagatelle-room—Elliott was in front of me rather; he threw one door open, and forced the second door open—there are two doors; it was the door leading into the bagatelle-room that he forced—Rebbeck made a charge against the prisoner—he said, "Oh, MR. Fawell, I am stabbed"—I said, "By whom?"—he pointed to the prisoner, and we then lost sight of him; I did not hear him say anything—I took the prisoner into custody for stabbing Rebbeck—I was not a ware that.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. I suppose you looked about for a knife? A. When I returned back from the police-station I did—I should say that was in half an hour—I found none—I first saw a knife when it was given up to Mr. Potter; I think it was the following night—I saw it given to Mr. Potter by the potman at Bordessa's public-house—Bordessa's is not more than a minute's walk from the Golden Anchor; it is very close—I was alongside of Mr. Potter when I saw the knife; I don't know whether that knife is here now—(looking at a knife produced by a constable)—I believe that to be the knife.

Q. At the time it was given to Potter was a statement made by the potboy who gave it him? A. There was something said; they were in conversation together; I was looking after other things; they had some conversation respecting the knife I have not the least doubt—at least it was about a knife; it might have been about the knife—I have not sworn this moment that it was about the knife; I said they had some conversation no doubt about the knife—I have not seen another knife—I did not see this knife produced on the first trial—I do not know that it was not produced; all the witnesses were ordered out of Court—I do not know that this knife was never shown during the progress of the prosecution, but was only produced on the prisoner's defence—I believe Mr. Potter kept possession of the knife after he received it from the potboy—I was looking after somebody else at that time; I was looking after other parties who were wanted for the same affair—I was looking after some persons who I had authority from Mr. Knox to look after—I was certainly looking after some parties in connexion with this murder; I was directed to do so by the Magistrate—Gregorio's name was not mentioned—I was looking after a person whom I now know to be Gregorio; I was looking after those that I was told were in the room from inquiries I had made—I was looking after Gregorio from information I had received and from inquiries I had made—anybody that I had received a description of, I should have taken into custody, if the parties from whom I had received information could identify them as being there, as accessories—I was directed by the Magistrate to take up all the accessories—all the parties that were there—several parties described Gregorio to me; I had not been told that he was the person who inflicted the wound—never; I swear that, not by anybody.

Q. This is what you said before: "I have made inquiries for another one, particularly one who is supposed to be away; I have not been able to find him; he is known by the name of Gregorio?" A. That was not on my first examination; I stated that at the trial; it is correct; it is true that I had been making inquiries—when Rebbeck said the prisoner was the man who stabbed him, the prisoner said nothing; not in my hearing; he was a very short distance off—he might have said something without my hearing it, the confusion was very great—there were about twenty of us in the room—I did not hear him say anything; I swear that—I asked Rebbeck by whom he

was stabbed, and he pointed—I certainly never heard the prisoner say anything—I was looking after myself, I can assure you—I never heard him say anything, and I have never said that I did—I took him into custody with the assistance of Elliott—I told him I took him for stabbing Rebbeck—that was when we got him into the street; not till then—he made an answer to me in Italian which I did not understand.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. You have stated that you did not know the name of Gregorio at the time you were first before the Magistrate? A. Yes—I mentioned the name when I was examined at the last trial; I had learnt his name before then—I had been searching and making inquiry respecting him—I went to all persons that would be likely to know, in my judgment—I inquired for him, and two others—I had also made inquiries respecting their names.

COURT. Q. When you say you were looking out for a person whose name you afterwards ascertained to be Gregorio, you were then aware, not only that Rebbeck had been stabbed, but that Harrington and Bannister had been stabbed, were you not? A. Yes; I was looking out for Gregorio, and some other persons.

JAMES RAFFELL . I am a gun-barrel maker, living at 28, Cross-street, Hatton-garden—I went into the bagatelle-room at the Golden Anchor between 6 and 7 on the evening of 26th December last; when I got in I saw the prisoner in the room, lying on the top of Harrington—the bagatelle-room-door leading into the passage was shut—I have known the prisoner by sight for some time, I can't say how long; there was no other Italian in the bagatelle-room—I saw King there, and saw him pull the prisoner off Har-rington—the police came in at that moment—when I went in, there was no other Italian in the room but the prisoner.

MARIA MELLERSHIP . I am the wife of Richard Mellership, who has been examined—I was with my husband in the Golden Anchor on 26th De-cember last—I heard a noise in the bar; I recollect Mrs. Shaw coming in, and saying something, and after that the door being opened, or forced open, and some persons trying to get in—I was standing by my husband, and the Italians tried to rush in at the door, and the English got up, and pushed them back—there was only one got in; that was the prisoner—my husband was then standing against the table where we had been sitting—my husband rushed up to where they were trying to get in, and I pulled him back by big coat—I did not see Rebbeck struck; I saw him after he was struck—that was after the prisoner was taken to the station—I saw Mrs. King pick up two hats; one was a light one, and the other a dark one—one was a big wide-awake; that was the dark one—it had rather a biggish brim; the other was not so large; but it was also a wide-awake—she picked them up by the table in the bagatelle-room—one was under the bagatelle-board—Harrington was standing against my husband, against the table where we had been sitting.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. You have not been examined at all before, I think? A. No; a gentleman came to me about this matter last Monday week—I have not talked this affair over a good deal with my husband—I dare say we have talked a little about it—the bagatelle-room door was pushed open from the passage—nobody opened it from the inside while I was there—I saw it pushed open—the Italians pushed it open—I saw it burst open.

MARIA KING (re-examined.) I picked up two hats in the bagatelle-room; I gave them to Mrs. Shaw.

RICHARD PATHORNE (Policeman, G 158.) On the evening of 26th December I was called to the Golden Anchor public-house, between 6 and 7 o'clock—I found Harrington lying there; I knew him—he was in the bar-parlour insensible; his bowels wore protruding—I got a cab, and took him to St. Bartholomew'S Hospital, and put him under the charge of Mr. Peer-less, the surgeon there—he had no hat or cap—I did not go back to nee if there was one—I did not think of it.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. I think this is the first time you have made your appearance in this case? A. Yes—I have not inquired since about Harrington's hat; I have hoard that two hats were delivered to Mrs. Shaw—she is here, outside—I heard that those hats were found in the room where the affray took place.

LEWIS WORMS . I live at 9, Brook's-market, Leather-lane, Holborn—my lather deals in building-materials, and has a place next to the Golden Anchor—the deceased, Michael Harrington, was a brother-in-law of mine—I gave him a hat some short time before Christmas last; it was a black wide-awake, one the same as this (producing one,) only wider in the brim—I saw him on the afternoon of 26th December, about 4 o'clock, and I saw him about 7, when he was taken out of the Golden Anchor—when I saw him about 4, be had the wideawake with him; he was wearing it—he had not got it when I saw him at 7—I was with him for three hours after he was taken to the hospital—I went back to the house and inquired for it, and they said it was not there—it has never been seen since by me or any of the family.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Who did you ask about it, when you wont back to the house? A. I asked if Michael Harrington's hat was seen there—I asked anybody who was there; I did not ask Mrs. Shaw—I asked some of the people that were in there.

GEORGE VERGE . I am six years old; I do not go to church or chapel—I live at home with my mother—I have not got any brothers or sinters—I remember finding a knife in the ruins against the arch; I should know it again if I were to see it (looking at a knife with a broken point produced by Baldock)—this is it; I brought it home to my mother—I showed the constable McMnhon, G 78, where I found it—it was the day after Boxing-day that I found it.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Before you showed the policeman where you found it, had you shown your mother? A. Yes—I am sure I pointed out the place to my mother; it was not a place where they kill cats—I hada little brother with me when I found it; he is about nine years old.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. Where is he? A. Playing—his name is Joe Verge; he is bigger than me—he saw where I found it; I took hold of it first—I went with my mother and showed her the place.

HARRIET VERGE . I am the mother of the last witness—he was six years old last October—he gave me a kuife; this is it—I gave it to the policeconstable McMahon, after I had it in the cupboard for Home time—my little boy gave it to me on 27th December, about ten in the morning—he showed me the place where he found it, yesterday; I did not see it before he pointed out the place yesterday—he told me that he was walking on a piece of wood, and it lay down by the wood on the ground—I know the place perfectly well; I should say it won between fifty and sixty yards from the hack window of the Golden Anchor—he pointed with his foot where he found it.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. When did you give up the knife to McMabon? A. The same day as the boy found it—Mcmahon came to me; he was in private clothes—I learnt afterwards that he was a

constable—I have not been examined until now—I don't know that Mr. Negretti found me out—I never spoke to him; I don't know him—my biggest boy is, I expect, in Hatton-garden; I loft him to stay there—his name is Joe—it was not the big boy that pointed out where the knife was found, it was the little follow—I did not point out to anybody the place the child pointed out to me; I have not teen any one about it—a gentleman went with me at the same time; I don't know his name.

COURT. Q. How came you to give the knife up to McMahon; did he apply to you for it, or did you volunteer to give it to him? A. He asked mo for it—my children have found knives there before—I thought it would have done for my husband—a woman first came to ask me for it, and I said I wad not going to give it to anybody, and then the policeman came and demanded it, and I gave it to him.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. In what state was the blade of the knife when the child gave it to you? A. It had a yellow, mattery substance on the edge of it—the ruins where it was found is a resort for all sorts of filth and of course I thought the knife belonged to tome of the filthy people—there is a regular trade of catskinning going on there—I saw some lying there yesterday, skinned, and just the tail left—the knife looked as if it had been used for something of that kind, and I thought it would poison the boy; that was why I tok it from him.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. What do you mean by "something of that kind?" A. Either cleaning guts, or something of that sort—there was nothing else to attract my attention to the knife, only the point being broken, and there were two letters on the handle.

COURT. Q. Did you wash the knife? A. No, I never touched it—I asked the boy how he found it, shut or open, and he said, "Shut"—I gave it up in the same state as be brought it in—it was quite dry—there was a little mite of blood on the top of it, more at the back, and another right on the edge of the knife—there is no mark there now; it is worn out.

JOHN MCMAHON (Policeman, G 78). I received this knife from Mrs. Verge about 1 o'clock on the afternoon of 27th December—I handed it to Sergeant Baldock, at the Police-court, about five or ten minutes afterwards, the same day—I went with the little boy Verge, and be pointed out where he found the knife—he said that was the exact place, and I put a stone there to mark it—I was there when Mr. Caiger measured this morning; he measured from the very spot I showed him.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. When do you say you put the stone? A. When the boy showed me the spot, that was in the afternoon, after I came from the Police-court, on 27th—I put an old pavingstone there, which was amongst the ruins—I was on duty there every day, and could see it—I recognised the spot; I am always on duty there, and I now it well, and should have done so if I had never put any mark at all—the knife had more blood on it when it was given to me than it has at present; not a good deal, but a reasonable share, for the size of the knife, more than there is at present; it was on the blade, not on the point—there was no matter on it when I saw it; I never heard there was any, nothing but blood—I can't say whether it was produced for the prosecution on the first trial—I was not a witness—I gave it up to Sergeant Baldock, and he gave it to Mr. Potter in my presence.

MR. GIIFFARD. Q. Did you point out to Mr. Caigor the same place that the little boy had pointed out to you? A. The identical spot.

MR. CAIGER (re-examined.) I measured by stricles this morning the

distance from the spot pointed out to mo by McMahon, to the back part of the Golden Anchor; it was about twenty-one or twenty-two yards—I could not take it quite in a direct line, because there were some boards put on end.

COURT. Q. You measured from the atone, to what part of the Golden Anchor? A. To the window, the nearest edge of it; it lies in an oblique direction, to the right towards Castle-street. Adjourned.

Thursday, April 13th, 1865.

GEORGE BALDOCK (Police-sergeant.) I was in charge of the Clerkenwell Police-station on the night of 26th December last—the prisoner was brought to that station that night by constables Fawell and Elliott—he was charged by Fawell with stabbing a man on Saffron-hill—I told him he was charged with stabbing a man on Saffron-hill, that he would be detained at the station until I had ascertained if the man was dead; if dead, he would be charged with wilful murder—I asked him if he understood English—he said, "Yes"—I noticed that hisright hand was covered with blood—I pointed it out to him—he said, "I only protected myself"—he said nothing more on that occasion—I searched him, and found in his right-hand pocket an old knife—it did not appear to have been used during the day—this is the knife (produed)—next day I told him he would be charged with the wilful mur-der of Michael Harrington, at the Golden Anchor, Great Saffron-hill, by cutting him in the belly with a knife (I had heard of his death that morning)—he said, "I never used a knife."

ELIZA HARRIET SHAW . I am the wife of the landlord of the Golden Anchor—on the night of 26th December, I was serving in the bar about 6 o'clock, or from that to 7; we were very busy—I saw Gregorio Mogni there; I did not see him come in—he was standing at the gate leading from the bar to the tap-room—that is what has been called the half-door—he was on the tap-room side of that door—it was shut—he was leaning over it—I saw him slap my husband's face—he then went back again into the tap-room—my husband was at the bar, and he went towards the door to call the police, the street-door leading into Castle-street—I remained in the bar still serving—I remember a disturbance taking place at the door of the bagatelle-room; I did not see it, but I heard the noise—I had seen the deceased man Harrington before that; it might be ten minutes before, I cannot say to a few minutes; I should think it was that, more or less—he was at the halfdoor leading to the tap-room then, just going through it—it was open—he was near the tap-room door; the door was pushed open then—I cannot say that I saw where Harrington came from; he came from the bar to the half-door—I know that, because he came behind me as I was behind the bar—I could not see whether he came from the front of the bar or from the bagatelle-room, because my hack was towards the door, but it was quite evident that he came through the door to get to the halfgate—I am not supposing anything, because I am sure he came through the bar—I saw him in the bar before he pushed the halfdoor open, and saw him go through there—I did not see whether he came from the front of the bar or the bagatelle-room; I did not see him till he passed through the door, but he must have come by the bar or the bagatelle-room—when he got to the halfdoor he went through it towards the tap-room door, and Gregorio took hold of him and rose his hand as if to strike him—by some means or other Harrington was got away from Gregorio, I cannot explain how; ho was got away by some one and taken into the bagatelle-room—he was drawn through the bar again, not through the tap-room and the bagatelle-room and the passage, but through

the bar, and brought back again into the bagatelle-room—that was after my husband's face had been slapped—I saw no more of the transaction whatever—I remember two hats being handed to me at a later period of the evening; I cannot describe what hats they were—all I can say is that they were two round hats, what we term billy-cocksy or wide-awakes—I do not know who gave them to me—I threw them over the bar to Gregorio and his brother; they took them away.

COURT. Q. Do you know what they call Gregorio's brother? A. They call him John.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. What became of those two hats? A. Gregorio and his brother took them away directly I threw them over the bar—they did not say whether they were theirs or anybody else's, they took them—they came and said something about some hats, Gregorio did—he said, "Give me my hat, "or something—he was in company with his brother—I told him I did not know anything about it.

Q. Did you hear anybody talk about killing six Englishmen? A. There was some talking at the bar, but I really cannot say that I heard it, I was so busy I did not pay attention to what was said—I believe Gregorio was there at the time, but I cannot say—I do not know whether Gregorio made use of that expression.

THOMAS AMBROSE POTTER (Police-Inspector G.) In consequence of information I received I conveyed the prisoner to St. Bartholomew's hospital on the evening in question about seven o'clock, Fawell, Elliott and Sergeant Baldock went with me—on arriving there I found Harrington in bed—I had spoken to the doctors Mr. Peerless and another, and a number of other persons—I took the prisoner to Harrington's bed-side—there were a number of other persons there, I should think there were a dozen, including the officers—I placed them round the bed—Fawell was the only officer there in plain clothes—both doctors were present—I spoke to the deceased and said, "Harrington, listen to me, the doctor who is present informs me that you have but a short time to live"—he made a sigh and went off into a doze; I then roused him gain—I took hold of his hand and his head and said, "You bad better listen to me"—he then said, "; If I am to die, God have mercy upon me"—I told him I wanted him to look round the bed to see if there was any one there who he knew; I said, "Tell me where you are hurt?"—he said, "In my belly, untie my belly"—it was bandaged up; a sheet or cloth of some sort sort was tied round him—I then asked him again to look round the bed and he did so—the persons at that time were standing two deep round the bed, I mean one behind the other—he looked round the bed, first looking at the doctors who were standing on the opposite side of the bed to myself, till he came to the prisoner, who was standing three persons from me, nearer the foot of the bed—he took his hand from mine, put out his right hand, pointed to the prisoner and said, "That is the man who did it, him with the black moustache"—he said "black" or "dark"—I am not positive which, but I believe he said "black"—he also said, "God have mercy upon him, "or "God forgive him, "I cannot bo positive which—I then held a pen in my hand to Harrington and asked him to sign what he had stated; Sergeant Baldock had written it down; it was read over to him; I asked him to sign it and ho declined—he said, "No, "and replied, "God have mercy upon him "several times—he did not sign the paper—that was all he said, I think, as far as ray recollection carries me—I said to the prisoner, "Do you understand what is said?" he replied in English, "I do not understand English writing"—I had the paper in my hand at the time, I had taken it

from Baldock—I then said, "Harrington says you were the man that did It"—he said nothing—I then conveyed him back to the station, and he was there charged with stabbing Rebbeck—this (produced) is the paper that was taken to the Royal Free Hospital to Rebbeck's bedside—that is not the paper I have been speaking of.

COURT. Q. What did you do with the paper that Baldock wrote? A. They were both taken to the police-court and only one could be found, we had some difficulty in finding this—it was produced at the police-court.

MR. BEASLEY. Q. When did you last see that paper or hear anything about it? A. On the second examination at the police-court; it was shown to the magistrate, but not taken in evidence, as the officers were present who heard the statement, and the doctors; they said it was not required—I produced it at the police-court and this paper also; they were left there—I have since made inquiries for both papers and have only been able to get this one.

COURT. Q. In whose hands did you last see it? A. Lying on the desk in front of the magistrate, on the solicitor's desk, where the professional gentlemen sit—they were taken from me and handed to the gentleman who was then prosecuting, Mr. Wakeling.

MR. BEASLEY. Q. You went to the Royal Free Hospital and went to the bedside of Rebbeck there? A. Yes; this was written down before I arrived there, it was read over in my presence—when I first arrived there the prisoner was not there—I immediately sent for him when I was told Rebbeck was dying, and when the prisoner was there at the bedside I asked Dr. Hill whether it was true that Rebbeck was not likely to live, he said "Yes, he is dangerously bad,"—Rebbeck was in bed, I was standing by his bedside—I then asked the sergeant for the statement which he had written down from Rebbeck and asked him to read it over—it was written before, and afterwards read over in the prisoner's presence by Baldock—I asked Rebbeck if it was true, he said, "Yes."

GEORGE BALDOCK (re-examined). I was present by Rebbeck's bed-side and read the paper over to him—I read over correctly what was in the paper—Rebbeck said that it was quite correct and quite true, Mr. Potter and Fawell signed the paper and Rebbeck made his mark—the prisoner made no remark—I read it over distinctly to the prisoner—I read it over both to Rebbeck and the prisoner, they were both present—(Read: "26th December, 1864. Statement made by Alfred Rebbeck—"My name is Alfred Rebbeck, I reside at 59, Great Saffron-hill—I am potman—I am twenty-two years old—about seven o'clock this evening there was a disturbance at the Golden Anchor, Great Saffron-hill—I went into the room to try to quell it. An Italian was in the room. That man stabbed me. I immediately struck him with a stick. I afterwards gave the man in custody of policeman, 455 A., Fawell. This statement is true; I know I am dying. The man that stabbed me is now present; that is the man.")

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE to THOMAS AMBROSE POTTER. Q. When was that drawn up? A. On the evening of the 26th, the night of the occurrence, at the hospital—I was not present when it was written.

GEORGE BALDOCK Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Where was that drawn up? A. At the Free hospital—I believe Mr. Marriott the surgeon was present, and Fawell and the prisoner—Rebbeck pointed the prisoner out as the man—I think there was a nurse or two also, but I cannot speak positively as to who the other persons were—Rebbeck was in bed

—this paper is my writing; it was drawn up from Rebbeck's statement as he stated it—the prisoner was present when it was written, because it is put down on the paper that Rebbeck pointed the prisoner out and said, "That is the man"—I could not say whether Potter was there when it was written, I am not clear upon that—I know the prisoner was there, I am positive as to that, he heard all that Rebbeck said which I took down, I presume he did—I do not say that he did, he was standing near—he was fetched there to see if Rebbeck could identify him as the person who stabbed him; he was at the foot of the bed—he was not there before Potter brought him—I think Elliott and Fawell fetched him—Fawell was present when that statement was written down, and the prisoner—I know he was there when I wrote it down—he was there to see if Rebbeck could identify him; he was in the custody of Fawell and Elliott—I was a sergeant at that time, the other officers would do anything I told them—I took care that the prisoner should be near enough to hear—I am not sure that he did hear, but I think he did—he was present while the answers were given to my questions—he was list ening to my questioning Rebbeck and to Rebbeck's statement—he would we me write it down at the time—I thought it was best to read it over; because it was not given all at once—Rebbeck was very bad and there were short intervals elapsed—after I had taken down the whole of it I read it over, the whole of it, to see that there was no mistake—I believe Mr. Potter was there at the time I read it over—I cannot tell the exact time at which Potter came, but I saw him there with the surgeon and the nurse—it is not true that the paper had been written and that then the prisoner was sent for—he was present at the time I wrote the paper—he was not sent for lifter it had been written; that cannot be true; it is not true—I will undertake to swear that the prisoner was present at the time I wrote that paper—I can make no mistake about it at all, it is not a fact that he was sent for after it was written.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. At what time did you go to the Royal Free Hospital? A. I should Bay about a quarter to 8, or between half-past 7 and 8 in the evening; they sent for me—at that time the prisoner was in custody; I did not take him there—Fawell and Elliott, I believe, were the two constables that fetched him, I should say between half or three quarters of an hour alter, Mr. Hill was very busy at the time, and he could not attend; I should say it was quite that time—I do not know of my own knowledge who sent for the prisoner—I did not send for him—I believe he was sent for to see if any one could identify him—I do not know that of my own knowledge—I think I saw Inspector Potter at the time I was going across to the ward with Mr. Hill, which was between 8 and 9 o'clock, or he came in directly afterwards, I will not be quite positive, but I know he did not come in till sometime after I was there—Inspector Potter, when he arrived, would have authority to send for the prisoner—I think I went across to the bed-side of Rebbeck with Mr. Hill, but I think Mr. Hill left afterwards—I believe Mr. Marriott remained—at the time I took that statement, Polioni was present; I believe Mr. Marriott was present too—he is one of the surgeons of the Hospital.

COURT. Q. You say you did not get all that statement at once? A. No; it occupied some time—I think I put some questions to Rebbeck; I think I asked him what he was, and where he lived—I know I asked him several questions—I think it was all in answer to questions put by me; I will not be quite positive, but I think it was—I should think from the time I went into the ward until I came out, was about half an hour—I might say that a

quarter of an hour elapsed from my beginning to question him, until he completed his statement.

THOMAS AMBROSE POTTER (continued.) I should think it was about half-past 8 when I got to the Royal Free Hospital; I am not certain, it might be before that—Baldock was there when I got there, and several other officers—I should think Pelizzioni was there ten minutes or a quarter of an hour after—I sent for him immediately I heard from the doctor that Rebbeck was likely to die—I heard that as soon as I got there—Pelizzioni was at the police-station in Bagnigge Well's-road—that is about seven or ten minutes' walk from the Royal Free Hospital—Fawell was one of the officers I sent for him—he was in plain clothes—I remember sending him—the other one I do not remember, but he was in uniform whoever he was—I first saw Pelizzioni at the foot of the bed—the officers were also there when I got there, Fawell and I believe Baldock, and the two doctors, and several others—after I had gone to the hospital, and had sent for Pelizzioni, I went away, and searched for Rebbeck's clothes, seeing that he was naked in bed—that was after I had sent for Pelizzioni, and before he came—I went into Gray's Inn-road where I was told they were—I might be absent about twenty minutes—it was when I came back that I found the officers and the prisoner at the foot of Rebbeck's bed—I sent for a Magistrate during that period, and I went and found an officer to go.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Before you sent for Pelizzioni had you seen that written statement. A. No—I was away looking for the clothes, about twenty minutes I should think, not more—I first saw that written statement when I saw the prisoner and the officers round Rebbeck'8 bed when I returned—I did not hear the prisoner make any statement before it was read—I had not spoken to him, and had never seen him before. When Harrington spoke of the man who had wounded him, he said it was either the man with the black or dark moustache, I am not positive which—my opinion is that he said black, but I should not like to to be certain whether he said dark or black—i have not always stated that he said black; I think he did, but I will not be positive—I know Gregorio now; I do not know whether he wore a moustache—I saw him with a moustache when he came to the police-station, but I was told he had not a moustache when the offence was committed—several persons on Saffron-hill told me so—I saw him at the station-house with a moustache, when he was there with Mr. Negretti—I have not got the date; it was not uutil after the conviction of the prisoner—I should think it was about a week or a fortnight after the first trial—it was a dark moustache—I did not lose the paper that I produced to Harrington, I gave it to the solicitor, and the clerk took it—I do not know who employed the solicitor; I swear that—I have heard, but I do not know of my own knowledge—I heard that Mr. Shaw the Magistrate, and he handed them to the clerk, and he laid them on the table as being of no value—Sergeant Baldock had drawn out that paper—he wrote it down—I have stated to-day that when Harrington said it was the man with the dark or black moustache, the prisoner said nothing—he said nothing until he said, "I do not understand English writing"—he never opened his mouth to my knowledge—I never heard him speak before that—he uttered no ejaculation, not the slightest—he appeared very much hurt, as far as that he hung down his head, and appeared to feel his position, and never looked up—he said nothing, and uttered no ejaculation, I am quite sure about that.

Q. Just listen to this, "The prisoner said, 'I do not understand English writing;' I said what Harrington has said is, 'You did it,' the prisoner said, 'Oh.' "A. Yes, that is quite right; I said that he said nothing until he said he did not understand English writing—he did say, "Oh"—I did not remember that—I did not think of it; I forgot it—I do not know that there were any other Italians at the bed-side of Harrington—I was the officer of the highest rank there—I managed the affair on that occasion—I did not let in anybody who liked—I prevented no person from coming—I asked several to do so; I cannot say whether any other Italians were present, in my opinion there was not, but I don't know, there were four other persons in the room with moustaches, two strangers who I asked to come in, and I believe both the surgeons had a moustache—I found the two strangers at the entrance-door—they were quite strangers to me—when I take persons to be identified, I go into the street and ask some persons whether they have any objection to be placed with others, for the purpose of identifying the prisoner—I did not watch for a couple of persons with a moustache—there was a crowd of persons standing at the door, I took in three, two with moustaches; I cannot say who they were—I believe there were five with moustaches in the room—there was an officer belonging to the building with a moustache on—I do not know the name of that other person—I received this knife, with the broken point, I believe, from one of the officers—it might have been Baldock, I believe it was.

Q. I believe during the former investigation you never produced the knife at all, until it happened to be called for by the defence? A. Yes; I did produce it on the part of the prosecution—I left it in the hands of the gentlemen who were prosecuting—I am speaking of this knife (the broken one)—the knives were there—that knife was produced on the part of the prosecution on the prisoner's first trial—it was in Court—it was produced to the Jury—I saw it in the hands of the Judge—I have been an officer about seventeen years—during that time I have been a witness in some hundreds of cases—I quite know what a prosecution means—I could not say whether the knife was produced on the part of the prosecution—I know the knives were here in Court; it was produced during the case for the prosecution—I am quite sure of that.

COURT. Q. You are not asked whether it was in Court but whether it was produced? A. Well, I could not say as to that; I don't think it was.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. You know it was not, do you not? A. No; I am not sure—I was not in Court all the time of the prosecution—I was out of Court, and the knives were in Court, so I can't say—the knife was not in my pocket, it was in Court; I can't tell with whom—I sent it in by Sergeant Baldock—I received it when the knives were called for, and I received it again of Baldock—they were handed up to the Judge—they were brought here in the usual way if required, the same as other property—I don't say that the knife came out of Baldock's pocket; it came out of his possession—I can't say that it was not produced, till the case for the defence was going on—I can't say that I was in Court when it was first produced—I handed it up to the Judge—I myself produced it in Court; it was given to me and I handed it up to the Judge—I handed it up at the time it was given to me, during the examination of Cowland, one of the witnesses—I remember Cowland being examined as one of the witnesses for the prisoner—it was during his examination that the knife was produced—I took it off the table, I remember now—I can't say whether that was the first time the knife had been produced publicly—it was at the police-court, and at the

commencement of the trial I sent the knives into Court—I was outside—I can't say when the knife got on the table—I took it from the table—I believe I brought it down to the Court; I know I did—I brought the two knives to the Court, and at the commencement of the trial I sent them into the Court—I delivered up both the knives when I was called upon to do so—I did not bring this knife down to the Court, only that one—Cowland said that was not the knife that he gave me—I said it was—I sent the knives into Court before I gave my evidence; before the case commenced, in the morning, by one of the officers—I could not give his name—I don't recollect saying at the trial that the knife, with the broken point, had been found just outside the window—I will not swear I did not, but I don't remember those words—I did not know at that time where it had been found, only what I had been told—I sent the officer to find the person who found the knife, when I heard that a knife had been found, and he came to the Police-court to give that evidence—I believe that officer, McMahon, was called before the Magistrate; he was there, whether he was called or not I don't remember—I don't think Mrs. Verge, or either of her children, were called upon any occasion until to-day—I know they were not at the Police-court, because I was told they were of no use, as we could not trace the owner of the knife—I had been told that the knife was found near the house, but I knew no more than what I was told about it—I cannot say whether this knife (the long one) was mentioned in the course of the prosecution—I can't say that it was not—I know I handed them both up to the Judge—I don't know that that was the first time they were produced—I received that knife from the potman of the Three Tuns, Cowland, I think, I have heard his name is, since—I got it from him on the night of the occurrence, the 26th—I brought that knife to the Court with me—I was told where it was found—I pursued the inquiry on the subject of that knife—I was told it had been fouud in the urinal at the Three Tuns—I asked the person when it was given to me, whether he knew who put it there, and he said "No"—I do not take for granted everything that is said to me; very little—I made inquiry as to who was the owner of the knife—I did not hear any name mentioned as being the owner of it—I did not hear any person described; I swear that; not with reference to the knife—I never heard to whom it was supposed to belong; I don't say I never did; I say at the time I was pursuing the inquiry—I knew it at the time of the first trial—I heard it at the Police-court—I heard a tale about the knife, and I heard a name mentioned in relation to it.

Q. Did you in point of fact ever see that knife or call attention to it, during the progress of the prosecution? A. Yes, here in this Court—I make no mistake if I can help it—I do not say I produced it during the case for the prosecution—I did not call the attention of the Court or the Jury to it, during the progress of the case for the prosecution—I was not in Court, only when I was examined—the knives were lying on the table—I did not mention either of the two knives in my examination that I remember—I don't think I did; I don't believe I did; I should not like to be positive—I saw the knives all the time lying on the table—I had heard that the knife belonged to Gregorio; I heard that statement made at the Police-court—I did hear it before the first trial; before the second trial I did—I did not hear that it belonged to Gregorio, who was tried; I heard that it belonged to his brother John—I had heard of the knife when Pelizzioni was tried—I brought it to the Court—I had not then heard that it belonged to Gregorio, I had heard it belonged to his brother; that was

at the time of the first trial—I had been looking for him before that, and also the other; I was looking for three Italians—I did hear before the first trial that the knife belonged to one of the Mogni's—I had not heard that it was delivered up by one of them, within a very few minutes after the murder bad been committed, or the day after—I heard that it was found in the urinal—I heard nothing else about it.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. Do you remember when this case was first taken up by the Treasury? A. Yes—I do not think it was above a week before the first trial of Pelizzioni; it was something like that—I gave my statement to the Solicitor to the Treasury—he was aware of the existence of both the knives which I had in my possession, and how I found them—I produced them to him—when I came to the Court on the morning of Pelizzioni's trial I myself brought those two knives here, and sent them into Court by a constable, whose name I do not remember—I think I was the last witness called for the prosecution; or the last but one—I was out of Court during the time of the trial—I had nothing to do with the production or non-production of the knives at that trial—when I came into Court as a witness I saw the two knives lying on the table—I had heard that this knife belonged to Gregorio's brother, at the time I was trying to find three Italians—I was not able to find John at that time; I found out where he had been working and had the place watched, but was not able to find him—I did not conceal from anybody the fact of my having got those knives, or where I got them; quite the reverse; I mentioned the fact of having found them—I got the persons, who I took to Harrington's bedside, from the entrance to the hospital, there was a crowd of persons there, and I asked two or three of them to come in; there were several others besides—Harrington was in a separate bed, but there were several beds in the ward—before I admitted these persons into the ward I left the prisoner and the others outside, and went and spoke to the doctor's to as certain whether Harrington was sensible or not—I knew none of the persons that I brought in, and none of the others except the constables and the doctors, and the brother-in-law of Harrington, Worms, and I did not know him at that time.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Did you know about two hats having been delivered up by Mrs. Shaw? A. I did after the trial; I did not know it before—I heard of two hats being lost by the deceased and Rebbeck—I heard that before the trial—I could not be positive whether I mentioned it at the trial; I do not think I did; I do not remember—I did not make inquiry of Mr. or Mrs. Shaw as to whether any hats had been found—I do net know whether I made any inquiries of Mrs. Shaw; I forget if I did—I think I spoke to her about it some days after the occurrence—I believe I asked her where she was, and she told me she was in the bar—I asked her several questions, and from that I should have expected to bare heard all she knew—I did not ask her whether she knew anything about the hats; I had not heard about them then—I knew there were two hats lost, but I made no inquiries about them.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. Had your attention been called at all until the first trial to the fact of there being anything of importance in the loss of the hats? A. No; if there had been I should have made inquiry—since I have known about the hats I have endeavoured to trace them, but cannot—that is since the last trial.

The deposition of Fawell before the Magistrate, 27th December, was put in by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE, and read.


the Magistrate, "In going from the tap-room I saw Alfred Rebbeck following the prisoner into the bagatelle-room; the prisoner was going into the room by himself?" A. Yes; that is the fact—Rebbeck said, "Mr. Fawell, I am stabbed/"and pointed a man out to me, as I supposed, the prisoner—it is true that Rebbeck said he was stabbed, pointing to a particular man—I did not see Rebbeck follow the prisoner into the bagatelle-room—I and Elliott followed in—it is not true that I saw Rebbeck following the prisoner into the bagatelle-room—Rebbeck told me he had been stabbed, and we followed through—that statement is not correct—the deposition was read over to me at the Police-court, but not read as it is—Rebbeck told me that he was stabbed; that was my reason for following the prisoner—this is my signature to the deposition—it was made on 27th December, the day after the occurrence—I believe that is the evidence I gave, but I had been spoken to by Rebbeck then, and told that he had been stabbed—there was a man, I believed to be the prisoner, we lost sight of him.

COURT. Q. Was he going into the room by himself? A. A man wag going into the room, I never saw his face; Rebbeck was in a following position and we followed after him.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. You swore before the magistrate that it was the prisoner that was going in to the room and Rebbeck following him? A. That was the only man I found in the bagatelle-room; I should suppose it was the prisoner; of course I swore that it was, because he was the only man I found there; nobody could have gone in but him, no Italian; all the others were English as far as I know, Harrington was Irish—I followed Elliott immediately into the room; we both pushed to get in together, when I got in the prisoner was being pulled off the body of Harrington—the prisoner was bleeding from the head, not a great deal, he was bleeding slightly from the forehead—there was only one wound I should say. (The deposition of the witness before the Coroner was also put in and read, stating, "I saw Seraphini rush from the tap-room into the bagatelle-room: we got into the bagatelle-room and found the prisoner Seraphini held by William King")

MR. GIFFARD. Q. You have spoken of being in the tap-room twice? A. Yes; I went in and then went out again to look for another constable—it was on the second occasion that I went in that I saw a man, I suppose to be the prisoner, rushing into the bagatelle-room; Elliott was with me at time—was then about a yard from the tap-room; Elliott was with me at the bagatelle-room, the first doors—I might be very near the centre of the tap-room when Rebbeck spoke to me—I did not see the bagatelle-room door open when I was in that position, the tap-room door bad closed then, it was impossible to see then; we could not see the bagatelle-room door—Elliott broke open the door in order to get in—that door was not open between the time I entered the tap-room the second time with Elliott and the time when he broke it open—when I got back again with Elliott I saw Rebbeck standing close to the door, I should think within a foot, the tap-room, with his hand to his side—he was shut out of the bagatelle-room then.

Q. What did you mean by saying before the magistrate, "I saw Rebbeck following the prisoner into the bagatelle-room?" A. That was from the tap-room door, when we went through the two doors; I do not mean after we broke the door open; previous to that; Rebbeck told me he had been stabbed—he was going into the bagatelle-room as I stated, following the prisoner as I supposed—when he stated that he had been stabbed we went in at one door and pushed the other door open—Rebbeck stood in the tap-room

by my side—I did state before the magistrate that I saw Rebbeck following the prisoner into the bagatelle-room; he pointed a man out; a man was pointed out to me who I believe to be the prisoner.

COURT. Q. You are supposed to have said, (if you made any mistake correct it), that when you got in the tap-room, the tap-room door was closed, and further that the bagatelle-room door was not open as far as you know till Elliott broke it open? A. Yes, when I went in after I had got the assistance of Elliott I met Rebbeck in the tap-room, he said, "Mr. Fawell, I am stabbed"—I said, "By whom?"—he said, "By that man"—the tap-room door was opened, it was immediately closed again, we rushed through and burst the other door open and when we got in we found the prisoner in the custody of King and Mellership.

Q. At the time Rebbeck said he was stabbed, where was the prisoner? A. I suppose he was the one that pulled the door open, I suppose it to be him—there was a man there, I do not know whether it was the prisoner or not; I believe it was—Rebbeck followed him.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. But as I understand you the door opening from the bagatelle-room was not open till Elliott broke it open? A. No, I should judge not—I went from the tap-room into the bagatelle-room by pulling one door and pushing the other—I cannot tell whether Anybody opened it from the time the first door was closed, because we had to pull it open again to get the other door open; Elliott was in some part of the tap-room at the time; the man was pointed out to me, he must have been a very short distance from me; I cannot say whether he was in front or behind, we were all in confusion; there were about twenty people in the tap-room at the time.

COURT. Q. Are you quite sure that Elliott did force open the door? A. Yes; I followed clone upon him, and when I got into the room I saw the prisoner—I cannot say that anybody went through the door, although the door was partly open—I am quite sure that Elliott did open the door—I immediately followed him into the room and saw the prisoner held by Mr. King and Mellership.

Q. Had you seen the prisoner before that? A. There were so many in there—I do not know whether I saw the prisoner—he was the only man I saw in the room when he was pointed out—I saw several English people in the bagatelle-room besides the prisoner—I did not see Rebbeck there—I saw Bannister, Stanley, and several of the witnesses who have been examined.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. You came in I suppose from the Saffron-hill entrance? A. Yes—I went at once to the door; there was nothing to delay my passage from the tap-room door to the bagatelle-room, more than getting through the squabble—there were a great number of Italians—it did not take Elliott an instant to break open the door—when I got in I found the prisoner in a stooping position in the hands of Mellership and King—I cannot say whether I had seen him before that or not.

COURT. Q. Had you before that seen Rebbeck following any man into the room? A. He pointed a man out and said that he had been stabbed, that was in the tap-room, before we got into the bagatelle-room at all—he pointed to a man who was standing close to the door, in the tap-room; not in the passage, but in the tap-room—I do not know what became of that—I do not know whether it was the same man or not—he pointed out a man in the tap-room and that man was standing there.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. Why not take that man in custody at once? A. I could

not get hold of him, there was such a fight in the room that it was impossible—I do not know what became of him—I did not see Rebbeck go into the bagatelle-room—when I got into the bagatelle-room I found the prisoner being held by two parties—it was in the tap-room that Rebbeck told me he had been stabbed, by the swing-door that comes from the bar—he pointed out one of the men that was there—I could hardly tell which one he meant, there was so many—he was nearest the door and I judged that was the one he meant—he was close to the door through which he went—I did not notice him at the time, for I was looking after myself as well as looking after him—I was very near the middle of the room when Rebbeck spoke to me about a yard or a yard and half from him—there were several persons between me and him—he was a little way in the tap-room from the half-door, I should think about a foot or a foot and a half from the swing-door leading to the bar—the swing-door was open at that time—I do not remember seeing Rebbeck afterwards—I did not see him move—he moved in the tap-room, but I do not remember seeing him after we got into the bagatelle-room—he did move in the tap-room, he was putting his hand to his side in pain—I do not know what became of him then, he altered his position in the room; the pain caused him to do that I believe—the last place I saw him at before I went into the bagatelle-room was standing near the bagatelle-room door, behind me—he had moved then, he had got to the tap-room door—he moved from where I first saw him and got near the bagatelle-room, that was the last time I saw him—the last place I saw him at was close to the tap-room door, leading to the bagatelle-room—before that I saw him close to the swing-door, holding his hand to his side—it might not be much more than a minute between my seeing him there and seeing him at the tap-room door—I saw him move from the one place to the other—I do not recollect that he spoke to me again when he got nearer me.

Q. Listen to what you said before the Magistrate, and see if you can explain it—"In going from the tap-room I saw Alfred Rebbeck following the prisoner into the bagatelle-room; the prisoner was going into the room by himself" A. That is correct—I suppose two or three minutes elapsed after I entered the tap-room with Elliott, before I got into the bagatelle-room; not more than two or three minutes, at the very outside, elapsed between Rebbeck telling me he had been stabbed and my taking the prisoner into custody—we got into the bagatelle-room as soon as we possibly could.

ALFRED REBBECK (re-examined). I have been in Court during the time the last witness has been in the box—I was in the bagatelle-room at the time I told Fawell I had been stabbed—I went to the tap-room and Fawell was coming through the tap-room, but I was in the bagatelle-room—I was stabbed in the bagatelle-room—I did not go into any other room after that—I was not in the tap-room after I was stabbed; I am quite sure of that—I do not remember seeing my master call Fawell before I was stabbed—I first saw Fawell that night coming into the bagatelle-room with Elliott—I was in the bagatelle-room at that time—at the time I told Fawell I had been stabbed, the prisoner was in the hands of Mr. King—I saw Elliott and Fawell come into the bagatelle-room; I believe Elliott came in first.

COURT to RICHARD FAWELL. Q. Just look at the witness in the box, do you know him? A. Yes; I have known him for years—that is the person that told me he had been stabbed.

WILLIAM ELLIOTT (re-examined). I remember going into the bagatelle-room and breaking in the door—I could not say that I saw Rebbeck; I cannot say I knew him before—I did not see him to

know him till I saw him at the hospital—when I entered the bagatelle-room door Mrs. King pointed to the prisoner, and said the Italian had knocked her down—I did not hear any other charge made against him until be came outside—the door of the bagatelle-room was open when I entered the tap-room, and it was closed before I could get up to it—when I got into the tap-room I saw the fight going on, in the passage between the bagatelle-room and the tap-room—I saw some sticks; they were striking at each other—the time that elapsed between my seeing the sticks and forcing the bagatelle-room door open was just as short a time as it would take me to get to the door—I then put my shoulder to the door.

JOHN VALUE HILLS . I am resident medical officer at the Royal Free Hospital, Gray's-inn-road—I recollect Rebbeck being brought there—he was very weak, and had lost a very farge quantity of blood; he was in great danger—he was suffering from a wound in the side; it was what we call a punctured wound, between the eighth and ninth ribs, three-quarters of to inch long, and half an inch in extent the other way—it was a rectangular wound; it was three inches in depth, extending into the lungs—its direction was upwards and inwards—he was bleeding from an artery, which was severed beneath the ribs—I had him removed into the ward—he had no other injury upon him that I perceived—I think there was a little abrasion on the knee, but nothing of any importance—inflammation of the lungs followed—there was no part of the weapon that inflicted the injury left in the wound.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Look at that sharper knife, the one with a point to it; is that the kind of knife that would infiict such a wound? A. Yes, I should think that would be a knife likely to produce such a wound—I should imagine if the parties met face to face the wound would be produced by the left hand—Rebbeck had been drinking, but he was not intoxicated—he gave his evidence in a very straightforward manner—he had been drinking, that is certain; he smelt strongly of spirits.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. Why do you say the wound was inflicted with the left hand, if the parties were facing each other? A. It was a little towards the right side, between the eighth and ninth ribs—if it had been done with the right hand they could hardly have met face to face—it might have been done sideways; it would depend upon how the weapon was held.

Q. If the weapon was held in the right hand, and a back-handed blow was struck, would not there have been precisely the same effect as a forward blow with the left hand? A. I think it would be hardly done so, considering the position of the wound—it extended towards the middle of the body—the wound was upwards and inwards, towards the middle line of the body—it was inside the body that the wound was upwards, it inclined towards the left, from the point to the end—it was a sort of wound that would be inflicted by a back-handed blow, used dagger-ways if done sideways—I judge that the wound was produced by a knife with a single edge, and this knife appears to have a single edge, except at the point—the wound was three-quarters of an inch long one way and half an inch from the angle; the vertical wound was smaller than the oblique one—I could not form any opinion as to the shape of it. but it appeared that the knife had passed in obliquely and had ed or straight—I could not form any opinion, except from the description of meeting of face to face, and that I infer from Rebbeck's

evidence—I do not say I think it impossible it could be inflicted if the parties met face to face, but only unlikely.

CHARLES DURANT PEERLESS . I am house-surgeon at Bartholomew's Hospital—I remember Harrington being brought there—the prisoner was brought to his bedside, and Harrington made a statement—the inspector came and asked what condition he was in, and I told him he was not likely to recover—the deceased was asked who had stabbed him—he pointed out the prisoner, and said, "That is the man"—there were eight, nine, or ten persons present—one of my fellow house-surgeons had a moustache on, and I think one other, though my attention was not particularly called to the matter at the time—I did not notice it.

Cross-examined. Q. Was there one other in addition to the prisoner with a moustache on? A. I cannot say, I am not quite certain; to the best of my belief there was not more than one—I and my fellow surgeon were on the opposite side of the bed.

JURY to MR. CAIGER. Q. Were there any forms or tables in the tap-room? A. At the time I made my survey I believe the room was perfectly empty.

Witnesses for the Defence.

GREGORIO MOGNI (through an interpreter). I have been convicted, and sentenced to five years' penal servitude—before my conviction I had lived as a journeyman looking-glass manufacturer, with Signor Angelinetta—I was at the Golden Anchor on 26th December last, from about 6 in the evening to half-past 6—when I went there I saw Mr. Shaw, the landlord—I said to him, "You will take six Italians, and I will have six English like you"—I gave him a slap in the face—he then placed himself close to the bar, and then he went towards the bagatelle-room by the bar—two English came up to me and said something to me, but I did not understand them, as I did not understand English—they were going to do something to me, but afterwards we shook hands—my brother John was there at the time—after that one Englishman went outside the door, and one went into the bagatelle-room—I did not hear anything said in the bagatelle-room; I was outside—I saw some one at the tap-room door with a stick, and I heard the English say, "Come on, you Italian; come on, you Italian, "with their sticks in the air—there was a man of the name of Marazzi there—when the expression was made use of, my brother went on first, and went inside of the bagatelle-room door—I saw him go into the bagatelle-room; I went in too, and so did Marazzi—when I got in I found my brother up in a corner, with the blood streaming down his face, and heard him say, "Brother, they kill me"—when I heard that I pulled out the knife—Marazzi was behind me then—he said to me, "For God's sake, Gregorio, don't you use the knife"—I said, "Let me do myself, otherwise we shall not go out alive from this room"—I struck the knife in the first that stood near me; I put the knife into. the belly, so (describing)—I don't know who it was I struck—he did not fall to the ground.

COURT. Q. Do you recollect enough to be able to point to the part where you put the knife, what part of the person the knife struck? A. I do not know—I stabbed him in this way, with my left hand.

MR. RIBTON. Q. What was the name of the next person you wounded? A. Rebbeck—I had known him before—I believe I wounded another after him—I know the man by sight, but I don't know his name—(Bannister was here called forward)—that is the man—I am not sure if I wounded him in the hand or in his arm—as he was striking me with a stick, I struck him with the knife, but I am not sure where I cut him—I don't know the number

of English there were in the room, bat it was full; I saw one woman there—I know who she was; I know her by sight, but I don't know her name—(Maria King was called forward)—that is the woman that was in the room—I did not take any notice of her doing anything—I throwed her down in going in—I came out of the bagatelle-room; out at the door where they dance—I crossed the passage; my brother and Marazzi were already out—I don't know how long they had left the room before me, because I did not see them in the room any more; I don't know when they left—I found my brother a little way up Saffron-hill, going up Saffron-hill at the right hand coming out from the Anchor, up the right hand side; I found Marazzi just above the public-house of Bordessa—I was not wounded but I was struck with the fist, and had blows with sticks on the head—the blows on the head did not bring blood—I did not see Pelizzioni when I went out—they told us they had arrested Pelizzioni, and me and my brother went up as far as the workhouse—I met my brother just in the street going up, and we followed, because they told us they had Seraphim in charge—I went as far as the work-bouse—I first heard that Seraphini was in charge, in the tap-room—after I saw my brother I went back to the Golden Anchor to fetch our hats—I saw the landlady of the public-house and she gave me the hats—I took the hat that was given to me; it was not my own hat—a hat was given to my brother likewise—I afterwards saw Marazzi up at the public-house the Bordessa, near the pump—I said something to him—I saw Cetti at the Bordessa—I gave him my knife—this (the one produced) is my knife, and the one I gave him—I have had it nine or ten months—ou the same evening I went to the house of my employer, Angeliuetta, to fetch my clothes—I fetched them away—I did not sleep at my employer's house that night; I slept at Manzoni's, on the shavings—I asked his permission to do so—on the next morning I went on the other side of the water; I remained there till the Saturday and then went to Birmingham—I remained there till Mr. Negretti came down to me—I first learnt from him at Birmingham, that Polioni had been tried and convicted—I learnt that Polioni was sentenced to be hanged—I then came up to London with Mr. Negretti; I was taken to the police-court, there was an inquiry before the Magistrate, and I was committed and tried at this Court.

Cross-examined by MR. GIFFARD. Q. Are you related to the prisoner? A. Yes; we are cousins; third cousins—my brother Giovanni Mogni is here—he may be outside the court; he is here.

COURT. Q. Does your brother John speak English? A. Very little.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. You knew that your cousin had been taken into custody on the night of this murder? A. Yes; he was sentenced in the latter part of January—I heard from Mr. Negretti that he had been tried, convicted, and sentenced to be hanged, six or seven weeks after he was taken—I made inquiry what had become of my cousin—I heard from Mr. Negretti that the sentence of death was passed upon him—I cannot write—I never wrote to London for my clothes—I got John Schiena to write for me to ask what had become of my cousin—he wrote to a party of the name of Cettoni—that was just a little while before Mr. Negretti came down to Birmingham I don't know the time; it was about two weeks before Mr. Negretti came to Birmingham—I got an answer from Cettoni soon after; the next day—I have not got Cettoni's letter; I don't know what has become of it—Cettoni told me in the letter that he could not say about Seraphini, there was nothing yet decided, but he was going bad—I did not hear anything more until Mr. Negretti came down—I heard nothing between the letter and the

time when Mr. Negretti came down—I say I was at the Golden Anchor on the night of 26th about 6 or half-past 6; that was the first time I was there that day—I went there in company with Seraphini and Marazzi—Seraphini, Marazzi, and I went there together—we all three went in at the same door—it was not directly we went in that I said something to the landlord—I slapped his face, but that was a good while after.

COURT. Q. When you all three went there together, what did you first do? A. We were drinking.

MR. GIFFARD. Q. Where? A. Just in the little recesss that goes toward the bar from the tap-room, where there is a half-door—the first who spoke was Seraphini—I did not hear what he said to the landlord because I did not understand; I don't understand English—Seraphini spoke to the landlord in English—I did not take any notice that the landlord made any answer—I spoke to the landlord after Seraphini went away; about two minutes after—I spoke a little in English and a little in Italian, as I could—I said. "You take six Italians and me take six English just like you"—between the time that Seraphini had gone away and my saying that to the landlord, the landlord did not speak to me—I said that to the landlord because they struck one on the back on the Saturday night previous, and the landlord prided himself of taking six Italians—I had not been present then; I heard it from Gaspar Amossi—we had not been talking about that before I spoke to the landlord—the Italian who was turned out is called Coruepu—he has another name—I don't know where he works—I struck the landlord in the face because he had said on the Saturday night that he would have six Italians; some one had told me that he had said so—at the time I struck him I did not say, "If you insult one Italian you insult all, "or anything to that effect; I swear that—at the time I struck the landlord in the face Pelizzioni was away; he was not there—I don't know where he was—I was at the halfdoor, I don't know where Pelizzioni went when he went away; I went from the half-door to the bagatelle-room door—before I went to the bagatelle-room door I saw the landlord going towards the bagatelle-room by the bar—I believed that he was going into the bagatelle-room—I went to the bagatelle-room door because they invited us with the sticks to go in—I was then where they dance—I don't know the names of the two men with whom I shook hands—one I should know by sight; one I have seen again, had the other one not—I saw one at the police-court and I saw him in this court—I cannot tell you his name—he was dressed as a policeman—I had no weapon with me when I went to the bagatelle-room door; I went there with nothing in my hand—I drew out my knife in the bagatelle-room, not before; I am quite sure of that—when I went out of the bagatelle-room after that I had stabbed the people, I did not pass through the tap-room straight into the street; I stopped in the tap-room three or four minutes—it was while I was in the tap-room that I heard my cousin had been taken into custody; I don't know who it was told me so—I did not see my cousin in the bagatelle-room at all—I cannot say whether he was there when I was in—he was not there—I am ready to swear that he was not there—I can tell what persons were there—I did not know Harrington—when I got into the bagatelle-room there were Italians and English there—the door was open when I got in; I knocked or pushed a woman down—she was on the left in going in; she was in the room—the other Italians that were in the room had got in before the woman could get out—at the time I pushed the woman down there were three Italians in the room, my brother, Marazzi, and I—I did not take any notice where the man was that I stabbed in the belly—when I

went in I began to defend myself with the fist, and took do notice where he was standing—I knew Rebbeck—I stabbed the other one before I stabbed Rebbeck—Rebbeck was nearest the door; he was in the room—I stabbed Rebbeck after I turned back from having stabbed the other man—at the time I stabbed Rebbeck the door of the room was open—I did not see it shut at any part of the time that I was in the room—I am quite sure it was open all the time I was in the room—my brother got out of the door in the time that I stabbed Rebbeck—I did not see Marazzi go out—I don't know what time he did go out—I did not see any of the Italians beaten back from the passage—it might have happened without my knowing it—we three were the only Italians who tried to get into the room—I don't know how many there were in the tap-room altogether; six or eight; I did not take any notice—there were not several friends of mine there that night—I knew them by sight, but not to say friendly; they were acquaintances—I saw some of the Italians breaking up the forms in the tap-room—I did not know them, but I saw them breaking up something like a form—if I were to see the persons I might know who they were, but I did not take much notice—it was when I came out from the bagatelle-room that I saw them breaking up he forms—I did not see any of those people go into the bagatelle-room and try to get in—between the time that I came out of the bagatelle-room and the time I heard my cousin was in custody I had not seen anybody go into the bagatelle-room—my brother was working with me on 26th December—I don't know whether be left his work and got out of the way; I went away immediately and left him there—I went on the other side of the water on the Wednesday—the transaction happened on the Monday; on the Tuesday I Was with Mr. Manzoni, I did not go to work, and on the Wednesday I went over the water—my brother was not with me; I don't where he was—he had not done anything that I saw—his head was covered with blood—I don't know whether be showed it to a doctor, because I went away—I saw it that night—we went up as far as the workhouse together and came back directly to the Anchor (looking at Fawell) that is the man that I shook hands with—I am quite sure of that; it was at the half-door that goes into the bar that I shook hands with him; it was before I had been into the bagatelle-room—I put out my hand and touched his hand—there was this policeman and another one, and we shook hands together—I was tried here and convicted—Mr. Negretti brought me to London to be tried—he did not provide me with any attorney to defend me; I had one—I don't know if Mr. Lewis was the gentleman—I can't see him here—I do not know that the same attorney who prosecuted me was the attorney who instructed counsel to defend me—I did not provide any funds for my own defence—there was an advocate at the Police-court who defended me.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. How long have you been in the Penitentiary? A. Four or five weeks—I wore tonus taboos on this evening—Fawell was in plain clothes that night—I ceased to wear the mustachios when I went to prison—it was a light brownish colour, what they call chestnut; the same as Seraphim's.

JAMES GRAHAM LEWIS . I am the head of the firm of Lewis and Lewis, of Ely-place—I was solicitor under the instruction of Mr. Negretti, on the prosecution of Gregorio Mogni—I had nothing whatever to do with the defence of the man, not the most remote—I never saw him till he was prosecuted in this court.

Cross-examined. Q. Was Mr. Montague Williams instructed by your firm to defend him? A. No, neither directly or indirectly; he appeared, I

understand, instructed by Mr. Bordessa, one of the friends of the prisoner, not by me; I had nothing whatever to do with the defence—I did not instruct Mr. Williams, nor were instructions given by any member of our firm, or by our clerks or servants; I say so decidedly and emphatically, directly or indirectly—we employed no one whatever as agents. Adjourned, Saturday, April 15th.

ROCCIO ANGELINETTA . I am a looking-glass manufacturer—I know Gregono, he was in my service from 14th January, 1864—on 26th December he was wearing a moustache, a little darker than mine—he is a left-handed man—he was in my employment up to 26th December, Boxing day—3l. 17s. was due to him in wages—he gave me no notice of his intention to leave me previous to 26th December—I had no quarrel with him—he did not come to work on the 27th—he lived in my house, and slept there, and had done so during the period of his service—he did not sleep there on the night of the 26th December—I never saw him again until he returned from Birmingham with Mr. Negretti—I instituted inquiries for him, and communicated the result to Fawell the policeman—I communicated to Fawell the fact of his not having slept at my house after this affair, and everything I knew on the subject—I told him I thought he was in the Boro', from what I had learnt from his brother John—I believe his things were removed from my place, I never saw them after—I did not hear when he removed them; I made inquiries next day, and was told he had taken them away in a bag—he goes by the nickname of Mat; that means "Madman," it is a Patois; I have heard him called that repeatedly.

Cross-examined. Q. Did his brother also work with you? A. He did; he continued to work with me after the 26th, not down to the present time; he was in the shop next day, and I discharged him, because I heard he was in this affair—he took his wages, and left for Nottingham—I knew where he was to be found, and I communicated the same to Fawell, Flash Charley, as they call him—I swear that I communicated it to Fawell, on 30th December—I was examined as a witness on the prisoner's former trial—I said then that Gregorio's moustache was about the same colour as the prisoner's; I don't see much difference—I also said that Gregorio bore a strong personal resemblance to the prisoner; that is so in ray judgment; they were both shaved in the same manner on Boxing-day—on that morning Gregorio wore a beard, and he shaved himself about dinner-time, and that left him with a moustache without a beard; he had no whiskers, but a full beard in the morning.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. When he shaved about 12 o'clock he left only a moustache? A. Yes; his chin was clean—the trim of his moustache was exactly the same as the prisoner's—when I speak of their personal likeness I speak of the two men when they both had the moustache—I had never seen Gregorio with an entirely clean face before—I saw him here yesterday; I do consider there is a likeness between the two; of the two moustaches I should say Gregorio's was the darkest—I told Fawell what I had learnt about Gregorio, that he was over the water, and as he could not speak English in all probability he would be able to find him in some Italian house, and as there were very few Italians over the water, he would have no difficulty in knowing him.

COURT. Q. You say he went by the name of Mat? A. Yes, that means "mad;"I do not mean that he was mad, he was very jocular and frisky, jumping and running about, and squeaking at times, as though he was on he mountains.

GIOVANNI MANZONI . I reside in Francis-court, Berkeley-street, Clerkenwell—Gregorio came to my house on 26th December, about a quarter to 10 at night—from something he said to me I allowed him to sleep on the shavings that night—he made a statement to me of something that had taken place at the Golden Anchor—I did not see him next morning, I did not see him again until I saw him at the Police-court.

Cross-examined. Q. You were examined as a witness, I think, at the first trial? A. No, I was not, I was prevented from speaking; I was examined, and when I had got as far as I did just now, you stopped me—I said that Gregorio very much resembled the prisoner.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Was that your opinion? A. It was, and it is so now; and in a row like this, it was quite near enough to be very much alike.

DOMINICO CETTI (interpreted). I recollect Gregorio coming to the Bordessa public-house on the evening of 26th December, about half-past 6 or 7 o'clock—he handed me a knife, and at the same time made a statement—I threw that knife in the court-yard—I did not examine it well, but it was the same size as this produced, but shut up—I threw it in the yard of the public-house, directly Gregorio left; he did not stay longer than five minutes—it was shut when he gave it to me; I did not open it—when he gave it to me he said, "Be so kind as to keep the knife for me; "he told me it was in a question at the Anchor.

Cross-examined. Q. You were examined at the first trial, I think? A. Yes; I said that the prisoner much resembled Gregorio.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. What is your opinion now on that subject? A. They are a little alike, not precisely; but they are something like each other—I don't know in what part of the yard I threw the knife.

THOMAS COWLAND . I am potman at the Bordessa—the morning after Boxing-day I found a knife in the urinal in the court-yard, between 9 and 10 o'clock—this is the knife (looking at it)—it was shut—it was all covered with water from the urine.

Cross-examined. Q. You were also examined as a witness on the first trial? A. Yes—I did not then swear positively this was not the knife—I gave the knife to Mrs. Miller—two knives were placed in my hand when I was in the witness-box—I said the first was not the knife—I said of the other, "It is like this, only the spring is broken; "it was looser then than it is now—Inspector Potter was called, and asked if it was the knife he received from me, and I was recalled, and said, "the knife I found and gave to Potter was looser than this; "what I said was, "looser than it is now"—I do not remember saying on cross-examination, "This is not the knife;" I only said that it was looser than when I found it—it might have got rusty and stiff from lying in the water.

COURT. Q. What sort of a urinal is it where you found the knife? A. It is a level place, with two flagstones and a sink—there is no covering to it; there are two places—there is a wooden door to it which shuts by a spring; the bottom of the door comes down to the stones—the door I speak of leads from the passage of the house into the yard; there is no other door, no separate door to the urinal itself—it is an open yard; you go from the house door into it—I gave the knife to Mrs. Miller between 11 and 12 o'clock, and I got it back from her between 8 and 9 the same night—when I found it I did not wash it; I opened it, shut it again, and put it in my pocket.

JOSEPH CAPRIANI . I am a stereotype-printer—I know this knife, it was

mine two years ago—I exchanged with Gregorio, about ten months from the present time; I exchanged my knife for his—this is the knife I gave him.

Cross-examined. Q. How came you to exchange it with him? A. I exchanged it for another knife—I have not got that other knife here—I can get it in five minutes, it is still in my possession—it was not the same sort of knife as this—it was one that is not used to carry in a pocket—I went to see him in the shop where he worked and saw the knife, and this one was of no use to me; the other was very handy for cutting open bundles of paper, and I exchanged this for it, because it was convenient to my work—this is a knife that shuts up—the other was a hook-knife, handy to cut string with quickly—this opens with a spring; it is not broken, the spring is all right; it is in the same condition in which I had it—there is a good deal of rust on it—I can fetch my knife in three minutes.

JURY. Q. Is there any particular mark on this knife by which you can positively swear to it? A. There is not any very particular mark on it, but I can swear to it, because I had it fifteen months—(the witness was desired to fetch his knife).

FREDERICK GRIFFIN . I am an artist and modeller—I know the witness Harriet Verge, by sight—I saw her examined here—she pointed out to me a place where it was said a knife was found—I took the measurement from that spot to the window of the bagatelle-room at the back of the Golden Anchor, which faces the ruins—I know the premises; I made a model of them—the distance was 130 feet, that was to the yard; there is a yard before you get to the window, and I should think it was twenty feet from the yard to the window; in all, the distance would be 150 feet; we could not measure close, on account of the timber and high planks in the yard.

Cross-examined. Q. When did you take this measurement? A. Last Thursday morning—the little boy was with me, and his mother—the mother pointed out the place, but the child was with her—his mother asked him, and he pointed out the spot; Mr. Galli was also there—I was employed to do it for the purposes of the defence.

COURT. Q. How does the window stand with reference to the place that was pointed out to you, in a right line or in an oblique direction? A. More oblique—I should think it was eight or nine feet out of the right line, more to the north—the pieces of timber were piled close so that there was no possibility of measuring up to the window; they were piled up on end—the whole space between the commencement of the yard and the window, was occupied by it; I should think that was about twenty feet; you could hardly discern the window, only just the top of it—I had been there before, but not before 26th December—I can't say in what state the yard was then—the timber was higher than the window—I got up on some old doors that were piled there, and I could then see the length of the yard and the whole of the windows.

JOSEPH CAPRIANI (re-examined). This is the knife I exchanged with Gregorio (producing a knife with a round blade to it).

JANE MILLER . I received a knife from Cowland on the Tuesday after Boxing-day, the 27th, about 10 in the morning—I took it home to my husband; I thought it was his, the handle resembled one that he had lost—he said it was not his, and told me to take it away, that it had been in the row last night, there were spots of blood on it—I put it on the mantel-piece at the time, until I was going out; I then took it with me to Mr. Bordessa's, and said it did not belong to my husband—I gave it to the Inspector in the

evening—several persons were present when I gave it to him; the young man who gave it to me was there—I am sure it was the same knife; I should know it if I was to see it; this is the knife (looking at it)—I have never been examined before on this matter, and was not aware till ten minutes ago that I was to be; I was fetched from my work.

Cross-examined. Q. Did you do anything with the knife in the way of cleaning it? A. No, the spots were on it when I gave it to the inspector.

ANN SAMS . I am a brush-drawer, and live at 15, King Edward-street, Mile End New Town—I work for Gospel's, of Bury-street, St. Mary Axe—I am employed on their premises, and have been so for six or seven months I am there now—I was at the Golden Anchor, on Saffrou-hill, on Boxing-day—it was a holiday with me that day—I was in the dancing-room—I have known the prisoner for three or four years—there was some dancing going on between 4 and 5 o'clock—I danced with the prisoner once, but that was not till between 5 and 6 o'clock—I danced before he came in, and then I danced with him—I believe it was a Polka—I did not finish it—I was treading on my gown, and I felt giddy, and would not finish it—I saw the prisoner go out of the tap-room into the street leading out on Saffron-hill—that was between 5 and 6 o'clock—I remained there until the row took place—I did not see the prisoner at all after I danced with him, before the row took place—I saw a man strike Mr. Shaw.—it was Gregorio—I knew him before by sight, seeing him in the company of other men—there is a little resemblance between him and the prisoner—the landlord was serving in front of the bar when he struck him—I did not hear him say anything at the time; Mrs. Shaw was serving in front of the bar, and she turned to Gregorio and asked what he had struck her husband for, and she pushed her husband away—I know Gregorio's brother—I saw him there that night—after I saw Gregorio strike Mr. Shaw I went into the tap-room again—I bow Fawell by sight—I saw him that night at the side-box, at the side of the bar-parlour—I am quite sure of that—it was about 5 o'clock—I did not notice him later than that—I did not see him shaking hands with anybody—after I went into the tap-room, I went round and stood at the sidebox—I was then standing close to Gregorio—I saw Gregorio hold up his hand, shaking his band and gritting this teeth—the tap-room door was then opened; I can't say who opened it, but I saw Gregorio's brother going in, John, he was going in the tap-room door; that faces the bagatelle-room—I did not know that there were English in the bagatelle-room—I did not hear any disturbance before this—I then came out of the side-box where I was standing, and the people in the tap-room were then standing with the sticks, several of them—I saw them then make a rush; there were too many for me to see who was first—Gregorio came from the side-box where I was standing, and went into the door that leads into the tap-room through into the bagatelle-room—I could see that he did get in, because both doors face one another—there was a rush then with the other men; I did not see Pelizzioni among them—I saw Gregorio come out again a few minutes afterwards without a cap on his head, and he looked very white and angry—I did not see anything in his hand—I saw his brother come out—the left side of his face, if I am not mistaken, was streaking down with blood; I am sure one side was, because I saw the blood after they came out of the bagatelle-room into the tap-room—I heard Gregorio speak in English to another man, and ask him to come outside—I don't know that man—I saw Gregorio go out, and his brother—I went again into the side box where I first was—I did not see Pelizzioni again at all that evening—I never saw him return to

the house after he finished dancing—there was no particular intimacy between us.

Cross-examined. Q. Does the half-door shut off the bar from the sidebox? A. Yes, that is where I was standing—I saw the prisoner come into the house from the street—there was another person with him; a young chap whom they call "Peter"—he is outside—his name is Peter Moraltz, or Marazzi—they came to the side-box where I was standing, and had something to drink—I did not hear the prisoner speak to Mr. Shaw—I did not hear or see him talk at all to the landlord—there were four or five of them in this side-box—that was before the dance, five or ten minutes before—I did not remain at the same place until Gregorio struck the landlord in the face—I was there for about a quarter of an hour—there was no striking of the landlord in the face during that time—I did not notice Gregorio there when Seraphini first came in—I saw him come in before I danced with the prisoner—he and the prisoner and Peter all had something to drink at the half-door—there is no seat there—I went out of the tap-room when I saw the blow struck—I was then standing in front of the bar—it was after I had danced that I saw Gregorio strike the landlord; I am sure of that—I was asked to go and have something to drink in front of the bar—I went out of the door that looks out into Saffron-hill—I cannot say whether Gregorio was there before I was dancing—I went from the side-box to join in the dance with the prisoner—it was about twenty minutes after I had stopped dancing, that I saw Gregorio strike the landlord—the prisoner was in the tap-room five or ten minutes before he asked me to dance with him—I can't say how long I had been at the side-box when I first saw the prisoner come in; I might have remained there about ten minutes afterwards—when Gregorio struck Mr. Shaw, Mrs. Shaw pushed her husband away, and said to her husband, "For God's sake, Fred, go in-doors, "and Mr. Shaw then went and stood between the bagatelle-room door and the parlour-door—I went from the front of the bar into the tap-room, in the same way I came—it was immediately after that that I saw the rush made at the bagatelle-room door—the bagatelle-room door was open; I saw it—that was immediately after the rush took place—I saw it opened when the rush of the men was going in—I was then in the middle of the tap-room—when I first went into the tap-room, after leaving the side-box, the tap-room door leading into the passage was shut—I could not then see whether the bagatelle-room door was open or not—I saw the tap-room door opened after I was in—I did not see who opened it—there was a lot of people standing between me and the door—when I saw the tap-room door opened, the bagatelle-room door was open—i could see into the bagatelle-room—I could see that from where I was standing—it was kept open by the men that were going in—I can't say whether it was open before the men got to it, or whether any one was trying to prevent its being opened—the Italians had sticks in their hands, making their way into the bagatelle-room; I could not see anybody in the bagatelle-room with sticks trying to drive the Italians back; I could not say whether there was or not—I did not see the bagatelle-room door shut—I suppose I was standing there about five minutes altogether while I saw the bagatelle-room door open—all the Italians who were trying to get in did not get in; three or four of them were left in the tap-room—I could not tell how those who were trying to get in were prevented—I could not say who actually got in, and who was kept out—I know Gregorio got in, because he left when I was standing at the side-box, and he came back when I was standing—I saw him go through the tap-room door—that is my only

reason for saying he got into the bagatelle-room—I was examined at the prisoner's first trial—I can't say whether Gregorio's brother was in the heat of passion, or not; I don't remember saying so at the last trial—he seemed anxious to get out of the tap-room—I was frightened to look at Gregorio, because he looked so white and angry—when I was examined before, I remembered that Gregorio's brother had his face streaming with blood; I did not mention it—I never saw the prisoner again that night after dancing with him—I left the house after all the row was over, about half-past 7, or a quarter to 8—before I left the house Mrs. Shaw asked me to fetch a cab—I did not hear that anybody had been stabbed until after I came back with the cab; that was about 7 o'clock—I saw Gregorio go away before I went for the cab—I did not see Mrs. King there at all—I did not see her, or any woman knocked down.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. How did Gregorio's brother come out of the room? A. He came out without a cap on his head, and the blood was trickling from his head down his neck and face—I did not notice anything else—Gregorio came out with a rush to the side where I was standing, and he said to a man in English, "Come outside, it is right"—I saw him go out—I did not notice his face—I had never seen such a row before—I was frightened; I could not get out one way or the other—while Gregorio was standing at the side-box with me, the other Italians who were in the room were breaking up the forms, and had sticks—the Italians said something to Gregorio in Italian—I don't understand Italian—Gregorio then went from the side-box where I was standing, and the tap-room door was opened.

COURT. Q. What did Gregorio do after somebody spoke to him in Italian? A. Gregorio was the first to rush to the door—I can't say whether the man they call Peter was among the men that went in—I did not see him afterwards—I have spoken as to time as near as I could judge.

JOHN MOGNI (interpreted). I was at the Golden Anchor on the evening of 26th December—I got there between 6 and half past, about quarter of an hour before the disturbance—I saw my brother there—I did not go in at the same time with him—I saw him have a dispute with the landlord—he was speaking to him—he said, "You want to take six Italians and I take six English like you, "and he gave him a slap in the face—the landlord went round by the bar to the other room—I went to the bagatelle-room—I went in at the door where they dance—directly I went in at the door they knocked me down with sticks—they gave me some blows on my head with a stick—I went into the bagatelle-room alone—while I was being struck I saw Marazzi come in and my brother—that was while they were beating me—my brother came in, after Marazzi—I said to him, "Brother, help me, otherwise they kill me"—my brother gave blows and kicks after that—I saw him pull out a knife and give a blow in the right with the knife—after that I saw him come down near to me to give a blow to another, and after that I ran out from the room—when I came out my face was all bloody; I was wounded here (on the head)—I went out at the door into the street—my head was not covered at that time—I saw my brother in about five minutes—his head was not covered—we went back again to the Golden Anchor—I received a hat from Mrs. Shaw, and my brother also—I took my hat and went home—I left my brother there—I knew he was going to leave London—I did not know it before 26th December.

Cross-examined. Q. I think you say you were the first of the Italians that got into the bagatelle-room? A. Yes; when I got to the door it was closed; I did not open it, the English inside opened it—I was going in to

quiet them—they were in there with their sticks; I mean the English were—after my brother gave the landlord a slap in the face the English were inside the bagatelle-room preparing themselves to fight us—I saw the landlord go in, and I saw them—I am quite sure I saw him go in—I saw him go in by the door close to the parlour—it was directly after I saw him go in at that door that I went round to the other door—I know that the English were preparing themselves with sticks to fight us, because they opened the door and called—I do not know them—when I got to the door it was shut, but it was before that they opened the door and called—they shut the door at the same time that I got there—I know Rebbeck—I did not see him come out at the bagatelle door into the tap-room—I swear I did not see him—I did not say to him, "Go back again, or you will catch it as well as the rest"—they call me John there—I did not say to Rebbeck, "Get back; do not be a fool"—I did not speak to him—I said nothing about his catching it as well as the rest, or anything of the sort—I saw him that night where they pull the beer, and only there—what my brother said to the landlord was, "Do you take six Italians; me take six English like you"—I had been in the house About ten minutes at that time—I do not know how long my brother had been there; he was in before me—I did not see the prisoner when I first went in; he was not there—I saw my brother, but the prisoner was not there; I am sure of that—Marazzi was in the room—he was standing with my brother when I went in, and there was a third party, named Gaspar, a frame-maker—he is here—he was in before me—I am sure the prisoner was not beside my brother and Gaspar when I got in—I saw him when they were taking him away, and that was the first time I saw him—at that time I and my brother had left the house about five minutes—I saw him outside going on the street by the workhouse, where they go up by the police-station—I did not actually get into the bagatelle-room before I was struck—I was struck in the act of going in at the door—the first blow did not knock me down, but it stunned me; I was able to make my way into the room—I was struck down as soon as I got in at the door—I was struck down, but not till I got to the end of the room—I understood English very little—I could not see who it was that Struck me—there was light there, but there were so many I do not know any of them—if I were to see those who struck me I should know them—I did not see a woman knocked down—I did not see a woman in the room—I saw my brother outside this morning—I have not been with him the greater part of the morning; I was not with him three minutes—my brother and I left the house without our hats—we went a little way up near to the workhouse along with Seraphini, who was at that time in the hands of the police—my brother did not tell me immediately on going away that he had stabbed anybody—he told me to go back to get the hats—he went back with me—I was examined at my brother's trial—I said then that the hat my brother got was his.

MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Why did you say that the hat was your brother's? A. Because I believed it was—we asked for our hats, and those hats were given us—they gave mine and his—I knew that my brother was going away, when we got down to the house where we were living, about a quarter of an hour after—when the English opened the door and called out, they said, "Come here, Italians; we want to fight you with sticks"—I have been in Mr. Angelinetta's service eighteen months.

RICHARD WILLIAM COLVERT . I am a constable of the liberty of Saffronhill, and have been so about two years—I know the Golden Anchor public-house

—I was there on Boxing-day from about 3 o'clock in the afternoon until 4—I know the constable Fawell very well indeed—I saw him there that day—he entered the house a few minutes after I went in, and he was there when I left—he was in plain clothes—he was smoking a cigar—he stood at the back of the counter, with his face in the direction of Saffron-hill—I could see him very plainly—he was talking to the landlord when he could get away from serving—I could not see that he was drinking at all—I did not notice that particularly—I left him there to the best of my knowledge.

Cross-examined. Q. Do you mean that he was there for nearly an hour? A. He was quite an hour to my knowledge, or nearly so, it must have been—he did not sit down at all—I did not see him drink—I have known kirn for years—I was drinking with a friend in front of the bar—it was as near 4 o'clock as possible when I left the house.

PIETRO MARAZZI (interpreted). I am a looking-glass silverer and work in Bleeding Hart-yard—I know the Golden Anchor—I was there on Boxingday—I went there about 3 o'clock—I was there about an hour and a half—I went back again a second time, at a quarter to 5—I saw Gregorio there—I saw him take the landlord by the chest and say, "Is it you that want six Italians, I will take six English"—after that he gave him a slap—that was about between 6 and 7 o'clock—the landlord went round the bar, but I do not know that he went in or if he stopped at the door of the bagatelle-room—Gregorio came in to where they were dancing and went into the bagatelle-room—I was in the bagatelle-room when he went in—Gregorio's brother was also in the bagatelle-room—the first I saw was that they were striking Gregorio's brother—they struck me after I got in, after Gregorio came in—in coming in he threw a woman down—I was holloaing to help, and his brother was also halloaing to help him—he then pulled out a knife—I said to him, "Stop, for God's sake, don't you use the knife"—he replied, "You let me do, otherwise we will not go out alive"—I saw the knife in his hand—I cannot swear that this is the knife (looking at it), it was brighter, shinier—I did not see him do anything with the knife, because one took me by the collar behind and pulled me outside—Gregorio's brother's ll covered with blood, where they struck him—I saw Gregorio afterward in Cross-street, that was half or three-quarters of an hour after.

Cross-examined. Q. After you saw Gregorio strike the landlord and the landlord go round by the bagatelle-room door, did Gregorio immediately make up to the door of the bagatelle-room? A. No—I was examined as a witness at the trial of Gregorio—I stated then, After I saw Gregorio attacking the landlord and he went round to go in the bagatelle-room door, Gregorio made up to the door of the bagatelle-room"—it was about five minutes from the time I saw Gregorio strike the landlord, to the time I saw him make up to the door of the bagatelle-room.

Q. How came you to go to the bagatelle-room at all? A. Because I heard a noise inside, and because they kept saying, "They are going to fight, they are going to fight, they are going to begin a row"—the Italians said that.

Q. But how came that to bring you into the bagatelle-room? A. I went for to go to the water-closet—the water-closet is in the passage—it was not my intention to go in among the Euglish, but directly I opened the door they struck me down with sticks—there are two doors, one that goes from the tap-room into the passage; I went in by that door, it was shut, I opened it, and when I got in, the door of the bagatelle-room was open and the English were there—I did not get into the bagatelle-room before

I was struck, they struck me directly I went in, then they invited me to go in and, I went in—one of the sticks I was struck with broke my finger—I was examined at Polioni's first trial—I did not then say a word about my having been in the bagatelle-room—I did say about Gregorio having a knife in the bagatelle-room. (The witness's evidence on the former trial toot read over to him.) That was what I said, and all that I said.

PIETRO GUCOHIANA (interpreted). On the evening of 26th December I was at the Golden Anchor—I recollect the disturbance commencing—I saw Gregorio were—after the disturbance commenced I went outside for about ten minutes—I afterwards went to the Bordessa public-house—I saw the prisoner there and spoke to him—he came outside, and then we walked gently on to the Anchor public-house; we walked both together—I saw him go in—I did not go in.

MR. J. G. LEWIS (re-examined). Neither Mellership, Stanley, Miller, or King, were called as witnesses on the trial of Gregorio—Rebbeck and Mrs. King were called for the defence—before the prosecution I forwarded a copy of the depositions to the Home Secretary, and I received a reply after two days, stating that the Crown declined to interfere.

JURY to ALFRED REBBECK. Q. What timber was there about the yard on 26th December? A. There was a lot of window-sashes, one or two doors, and some quartering, twelve, fourteen, and twenty-four feet long, all sizes—the bagatelle-room window opens both upwards and downwards—there are two sashes, the lower part was open when I got out of the window—it is about eight feet from the ground—the timber was always there, but it has been piled up since that by Mr. Worms to show that Seraphini could not have thrown the knife there—it was done the week before last—(A photograph of the yard was handed to the Jury)—when I got out of the window I got into the yard—the timber is the same, but it has been packed up differently since—Mr. Worms employed two men to pack it up.


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