JAMES KINSMAN, JOHN DELMORE, Theft > grand larceny, 9th January 1793.

Reference Number: t17930109-64
Offence: Theft > grand larceny
Verdict: Guilty; Not Guilty
Punishment: Imprisonment; Corporal > public whipping
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185. JAMES KINSMAN and JOHN DELMORE otherwise DELFORCE were indicted for feloniously stealing, on the 13th of December , a cotton gown, value 5 s. two cloth coat sleeves, value 6 d. the goods of John Hayman .

JOHN HAYMAN sworn.

I am a journeyman taylor ; I lost the articles in this indictment from No. 3, Crown-court, Temple-bar; I keep a small house; I did not see the prisoner take them; I lost them from the lower room, the ground floor, my parlour.

ANN HAYMAN sworn.

I am wife of John Hayman ; I lost the articles in the indictment from the ground floor in Crown-court, Temple-bar, it was the 13th of December that I missed them, I saw them there about half after four o'clock; I went out about half after four into Butcher-row, and returned about a quarter to five and missed the articles; they were loose in the parlour; I was out about a quarter of an hour, as nigh as I can recollect; I have never seen them since, nor recovered them.

Q. How came you to charge the prisoners with them? - I saw an advertisement in the paper the Sunday following, and I went to Mr. Conaway's; I did not see my property then, I saw it at the Hall on Monday following, I knew it to be my property; Mr. Conaway has kept it ever since.

Prisoner Delforce. They have took two guineas on account of settling the affair of my friends. - I never received any such thing.

Prisoner. My friends have gone after the witness that see it paid down.

Court to Mrs. Hayman. Have you had any conversation about this? - Both the boys mothers brought the money, but I did not receive it, nor my husband; two women came they said they were the boys mothers.

Court to John Hayman . Was any money brought to you? - No, sir, I was not at home.

WILLIAM CONAWAY sworn.

I am one of the patroles of St. Sepulchres. On the 13th of December, I think Thursday, I will not be positive, I and my fellow servant, Carter, was going by the side of Fleet-market, he is a patrole the same as I am; I observed the two prisoners at the bar going by me, they were together, they passed us about a step or two; I observed the prisoner at the bar, Kinsman, to have something of a bundle in his hand; I directly turned back to him and said, Kinsman what have you got there? he told me he had got a gown and he was going to take it to his mother's; I asked him where he had brought it from? he told me from a young fellow in the market who was an apprentice in the market; I forgot his name now, and he was going to his mother, and he said afterwards, he was going to the apprentice's wife to to carry a pair of stockings, who lived just by Moorfields; I took him to the Compter directly on suspicion of its being stolen; I found besides in Kinsman's pocket a pair of coat sleeves, two sleeves; after I had taken them to the Compter I went to the mother, and I could not find the mother at home; from thence I went over to Moorfields to the place where he told me he was going to carry the stockings. The next day we had them before the Alderman; I did not advertise them till Saturday; Kinsman said first of all, that he had received them of Delforce; Delforce said nothing at all to that. On Sunday evening, according to advertisement, the prosecutor and prosecutrix came to my house, and brought a piece of the gown, and it matched. I have kept the things till now; they did not see the property till Monday.

SIMON CARTER sworn.

I am a patrole; I was with Conaway; I have no more to say than what he said before.

(The things produced and deposed to.)

Court. I shall not call upon Delmore for his defence.

JAMES OATES sworn.

I am an hatter; I am an house keeper; I have nothing to say concerning the robbery; the night before last I went with the mothers of the two boys, to the prosecutor's; he wanted three guineas to make it up; they could not raise but two guineas; they said the patroles must have half a guinea a piece, and two guineas for ourselves; after much hesitation they went out to the door two times, and then they came in again, he would not take the two guineas himself, but another man did.

Court. I give you notice that you may be contradicted, and it is more than probable, almost certain you will be contradicted by people on their oath. To whom did pay these two guineas?

- I did not pay it the mothers paid it; they paid a guinea a piece.

Q. Did they pay together or separate? - Together.

Q. Which of them paid the money? - Elizabeth Brown paid one guinea to a man who was along with the prosecutor, and sat along with him.

Q. Is that man here? - I do not know.

Q. Do you know his name? - I don't know.

Q. Who paid the other guinea? - The mother of the other son Kinsman.

Q. To whom was the other guinea paid? - To the same man.

Q. Why was it not paid to the prosecutor? - The reason they assigned was that then they could not come on the prosecutor for damage, they could not hurt him for making it up.

Q. Who assigned that reason? - The man that received the money.

Q. Did they both agree to take it, Mr. and Mrs. Hayman? - Mrs. Hayman was there and set in the room.

Q. Did Mr. and Mrs. Hayman agree that the money should be paid in that manner, and for their account? - They did not say so to me.

Q. Can you swear that Mr. or Mrs. Hayman agreed that the man should receive the money for their use? - I cannot say that they did; the man made the proposition that the money should be paid to him; that was all that passed.

Q Was this man in the house when you went there? - He was.

Q. After he was paid the money did he give it over to Mrs. Hayman? - Not while we stopped; the money was left in his hands.

ELIZABETH BROWN sworn.

I am the mother of Brown; for a whole week we were every night with the patroles; we were a week up and down about after the patroles; we met with the patroles at the watch-house every night that we came out; the patroles were nothing concerned in the money, it was left to Mr. Hayman to make it up with what money he could get.

Q. Did you make any offer of compromise to the patroles? - No.

Q. Where the patroles present when you made it to other people? - They were; but they went away when we went to talk about the money, they said they must not then be seen.

Q. What was the day the last witness speaks of? - It was the night before last; Mr. and Mrs. Hayman wanted three guineas; I conversed with them both on my oath.

Q. Did they mention the sum or you? - They mentioned the sum, Mr. Hayman and Mrs. Hayman both together, at the time that the three guineas were mentioned; the night before last Mr. Oates was with us, we took him as a witness, there was present myself, the prosecutor, Mr. Hayman, Mrs. Kinsman and another man, I don't know his name, he lodges at the house, he was there every time we met; they went out two or three times this man that received the money and the prosecutor, and came back and said, they would not make it up without three guineas; Hayman went out and his lodger; we told them they must do as they would; we parted that night and we went back again and told them that we had made away with the things off our backs to make the guinea a piece, then the prosecutor said, you must go and make another half guinea; we had only got out at the door before we returned and told him we could make no more; and then he whispered to his wife, and called out to his wife to the door; the prosecutor came back and said, it must be half a guinea more for them, for the patroles would have a guinea, and he must have a guinea and a half, I said it

does not signify going away, they are fatherless children both of them; so he called his wife out of the room, we were in the room set down again, and they were out the value of ten minutes, and they went out, the prosecutor, his wife, and the man, to consult whether they would take the two guineas or not, then they came in again all three, and the wife set down and the man set down; I says to this gentleman, I hope, says I, you will have mercy, I will pay you the guinea, the same as the other woman, the man said, you must pay me the money, for he must not take the money, for it is felony compounding, or something of that sort, then sir, said I, there is mine, and the other woman got up, and said, there is mine, and we came away.

Court to Hayman. Did you take any money at all? - I took no money at all.

Q. Will you sware that no money was offered to you directly or indirectly? Did you or did you not refuse the money? - I never received any money.

Q. Is it not true what these people have all sworn concerning taking the money? - I never employed any person to take the money for me.

Q. On what account was this money paid? - I did not consent it should be paid to me, I know nothing of the man being in the passage; I have no such man lodger in my house, I went into the passage with a man, but I did not go into the passage with a lodger.

Q. Did you and your wife go into the passage or not? - We did.

Q. Do you swear that no man went out of the room with you and your wife. - There were three went out of the room into the passage. The man is not here at present, but he is not a lodger of mine.

Q Now what did you three go out for? - To consult about business of our own.

Q. Do you mean to swear that after all these people have sworn that you went out of the room and that you had no conversation about the compromise? Will you swear that when you went out with your wife and that man, you did not go out and talk about this business? - No, I don't know that any thing passed about this business.

Q. The money was mentioned. Do you deny that what these people say is true? - I deny that.

Q. You still insist on it that the man that received that money did not receive it for making up the felony? - I am sure I don't know what money was left in that man's hands. They offered me money to soften the affair and not to bring the indictment on capitally; for to soften the matter as much as I could.

Q. Was that money offered to you for that? - They said they would make me any satisfaction I required; I told them I required no satisfaction at all.

Q. What was the money paid for? - I don't know.

Q. Have you ever received it? - No.

Q. What was the person's name that did receive it? - John Enricker , he is a person who is backward and forward at my house.

Q. You still insist that when you three went out you did not agree that that man should receive the money? - I did not.

Q. And you still insist that you have not received the two guineas? - I have not.

Court to Mrs. Hayman. Have you ever received the two guineas? - No, I have not.

Q. Did you see two guineas paid to the man? - I did not; I was very ill at the time and laying my head on the table.

Q. Do you believe the two guineas were not paid to the man? - I cannot say whether it was or was not.

Q. What was you conversing about when you all three went out? Was it not for the purpose of settling what sum it should be for to soften the matter? - I said to my husband, do not you have any thing to do with it; there was a few

words dropped; we stayed out about five minutes and went in again.

Q. It has been sworn this, the lodger said, you must pay the money to me, because it is compounding felony. Did you hear these words pass? - I did not.

Q. Will you swear they did not? - Yes.

Q. And that you never received the guineas? - Yes.

JANE KINGSMAN sworn.

I am the mother of the other prisoner, I was present when these person were present with Mr. Henricker, and the mother of the other boy; I had been more than once with the prosecutor and his wife on this business, a week or thereabouts before the last time we met; he desired us to make up three guineas we could not, and that man's brother I think it is, he called him brother, took two guineas.

Prosecutor. I have no brother living.

Court to Mrs. Kingsman. What was the money to be given to him for? - That they should not lay hard against the boys, the man and his wife and the other man went out of the room; the other man was the man he called brother; they stayed out for the space of a quarter of an hour backward and forward and when they came in there was no farther conversation, they took up the two guineas, the man that he called his brother took it up.

Q. Did the other man that he called his brother say any thing before he took it? - They were to have one guinea, to settle their property and the two patroles were to have half a guinea a piece.

Q. Who was the bargain made with, was it made with Mr. Hayman and his wife? - It was.

Q. They were to have their property, and have a guinea? - They agreed to take a guinea.

Q. Where was this? - In their own house; they took it up after they came back again from the passage, that man did that he called brother; they both agreed together to take it; they told me they did.

Q. Do you mean to swear that when they came back, Mr. and Mrs. Hayman they agreed to take it? - They did, I sware that.

Q. To whom was the two guineas paid? - I paid one guinea down and the other party put her guinea down; the man who she called brother took the money up.

Q. The brother did not say why he was to take the money? - He did not.

Q. Did you see him give it over to Hayman or his wife? - The man took it up, but I did not see further because we went out of the doors afterwards.

James Kingsman

GUILTY . (Aged 15.)

Imprisoned twelve months and publickly whipped .

John Delmore , Not GUILTY .

Tried by the first Middlesex Jury before Mr. RECORDER.


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