JOSEPH SLACK, Deception > forgery, 7th May 1788.

Reference Number: t17880507-57
Offence: Deception > forgery
Verdict: Not Guilty
Navigation: < Previous text (trial account) | Next text (trial account) >

386. JOSEPH SLACK was indicted for that he, on the 25th day of April last, in the parish of St. Dunstan's in the West, having in his custody or possession, a certain order for the payment of money, addressed to Messrs. Goslings, subscribed Foster Bower , whereby the said Foster Bower did require Messrs. Goslings to pay to John Lane, Esq; the sum of 15 l.

dated the 24th of March, 1778, directed to Robert Gosling , Francis Gosling , and William Gosling of London, bankers, by the name and description of Messrs. Goslings, which said note was in the words and figures following, that is to say:

"March 24th, 1788.

"Please to pay John Lane, Esq; or

"bearer, fifteen pounds for your humble

"servant, Foster Bower .

"15. Messrs. Goslings, bankers."

And the indictment further states, that the said order for payment of money, was falsely altered, by the letters en in the word fifteen, and the figure 1, being falsely erased, and a stroke added to the letter e, thereby changing and altering the letter e, into the letter y, and by the figure 5, in the figures 15, being falsely altered and changed in the cypher o, and another figure inserted, whereby the said order of the said Foster Bower , to the said Messrs. Goslings, requesting them to pay to John Lane, Esq; or bearer, fifty pounds , which said order for payment of money, so falsely altered, is in the words and figures following, that is to say;

March 24th, 1788;

"Please to pay John Lane, Esq; or

"bearer, fifty pounds, for your humble

"servant, Foster Bower .

"50. Messrs. Goslings, bankers."

And the indictment further states, that the said Joseph Slack , on the said 23d of April, did falsely utter as true, the said order for payment of money, so altered as aforesaid, with intent to defraud the said Richard Gosling , Francis Gosling , and William Gosling , well knowing the same to be falsely altered.

A second Count, the same as the first, only stating, that the order in its original state, when drawn, was for fifteen pound, and not pounds; and that when altered, it purported to be an order for fifty pound, and not pounds.

A third Count, that it was fifteen pound, and when altered, fifty pounds.

A fourth Count, that it was fifteen pounds, and when altered fifty pound.

(The Case opened by Mr. Silvester.)

WILLIAM EWINGS sworn.

You are clerk to Messrs. Goslings? - Yes.

What are their Christian names? - Robert, Francis and William.

Do you know the prisoner? - Yes.

When did you see him? - On the 23d of April, he came to our shop, and tendered a draft to me for payment.

What time of day? - Between eleven and twelve; I am sure it is the same person; I gave the draft to Mr. Bower, and he returned it to me again.

You are sure that is the draft? - I am clear of it.

Mr. Graham, Prisoner's Counsel. You gave this immediately after it was presented to Mr. Bower? - I carried it to Mr. Bower.

When did you see this note last before to-day? - I had it from Mr. Bower; I think it was last Thursday.

So that it had remained in the custody of Mr. Bower, from the 23d of April, till last Thursday? - I imagine so.

Had you ever seen the prisoner before? Not to my knowledge; the prisoner went with me to Mr. Bower's; I was at Mr. Bower's about ten or fifteen minutes, and I left him with Mr. Bower.

Did the prisoner shew any objection to go with you? - He readily agreed; I pointed out no alteration in the note; I told him, I must see Mr. Bower before I paid him the draft; I did not mention my suspicion; I only said, I must see Mr. Bower before I paid the draft; I then gave Mr. Bower the draft; he looked at it; he then said, this is my draft, and should only be for fifteen pound; this is a forgery; the prisoner was in another room; I called in the prisoner; I could not perceive any discomposure about him.

Did you point out to him in what particular parts of the note the alterations seemed to have been made? - No, I did not; Mr. Bower had the note in his possession; Mr. Bower told me, it was a forgery; the prisoner expressed his surprize, very much indeed, and in a very natural manner, and I believe I was with Mr. Bower a quarter of an hour, till he sent to Mr. Lane's chambers; when I came away, the prisoner, Mr. Bower, and Mr. Lane were together, and I knew no more.

Court. I understand you, that the prisoner expressed surprize, but did not seem confounded? - Yes, I went into the back shop where Mess. Gosslings were, and was shewing them the draft, and while I was doing that, the prisoner came into the back shop; I was not absent from him above two minutes.

You do not recollect he entered into any conversation about the alteration? - No, I do not recollect he did; I had no suspicion he was the person.

Court. On what account did he follow you into the back shop? - I cannot say.

It is not usual for such persons to go in that come for drafts? - No it is not, but he must see Mr. Gosling and me with the draft, and that might induce him to come in.

You say he came into the back shop, was the communication with the back shop open, or was there a door between? - There is a door, but it was open.

In point of fact, you never paid this draft? - I never paid it.

Court. Pray when you went in to Mr. Gosling, did you express your suspicion in the hearing of the prisoner? - No, I did not, but from the ragged state of the note, it induced me to suspect it.

Court. The note is Mr. Bower's hand writing? - Yes, it is.

Mr. Graham. You have seen Mr. Bower write very often? - I have seen him write very often, I have not the least doubt but it is his.

(The note handed up to the Court.)

THOMAS LANE sworn.

(Looks at the Draft.)

On the 22d of March last, in the Court-house, in Hereford, having occasion to send to London a particular sum of money, and not being able to do it so exactly to my mind, without obtaining a fifteen pound or twenty-five pound draft; I applied to Mr. Bower, who is an intimate friend of mine, to accommodate me with fifteen pounds, which he was obliging enough to do by giving me a draft on his bankers, Messrs. Goslings, for that sum, the draft was by him post dated on the 24th; it is not material, but I believe I could tell literally the terms of the draft; it was to pay me or bearer, the sum of fifteen pounds on his banker's, Messrs. Goslings, in my favour for fifteen pounds.

Court. Do you happen to know why the date was post dated? - I only know from conjecture; it was not expressed at the time. I beg pardon, I will tell you in a moment, whether it was or not; yes, it was; I mentioned to Mr. Bower, I said, oh! what you draw it on the 24th, because it is to be in town, do you? I remember saying that to him across the table, in the presence of fifty people; he said, when I draw from the country, I always post date it; it was understood between us, that it should be so, it was to arrive in town that day, and was to be presented there; the draft which I so received from him, I put together with two bank notes of ten pounds each, into a letter which I adressed to Mrs. Mattingley, and which I sealed, and which letter so containing the drafts and notes, and so sealed, I put together with several other little letters and papers into a cover, a frank which Mr. Bearcroft gave me, and directed it to my clerk, in Lincoln's-inn, and sent it by the post to him, I addressed it to a clerk of mine, who always is in my chambers in London, I gave it to my servant at Hereford, so addressed to my

clerk in London, at my chambers, to put it into the post.

Do you know whether that is the draft that you put in? - It is impossible for any man to say positively that it is, but I have no particle of doubt that it is, having with the utmost care and attention examined it, and being master of the literal words of the draft, I particularly attended to it, and accurately looked at it; I had my reasons at the time, I did not chuse to use my friend's paper, but I could not get a fifteen or twenty-five pound note; the first alteration which I observed in the draft, is that instead of the word fifteen pound in the draft I received, in that in my hand appears the word fifty pound, it seems to have been done by a substitution of the last part of the letter y in the place of the two last letters of the word fifteen, in the place of the letters e n, perhaps it is more correct to say by an addition of the part of the letter after the letters fifte, or an addition of the last part of the letter y to the first e, in the word fifteen; the long stroke in the last part of the letter y, to the first e, in the syllable en. I take it to be so because I observe from very accurately attending to Mr. Bower's draft, and I have observed it very often in his writing besides, that his e's do not appear to have any opening, they are a little perhaps fuller at the top, but are like i's; only no tittle, there remain the original letters fifte, and in the place of the last en, there is a substitution of the last past of the letter y which make it fifty.

Court. What do you conceive to have become of the letters e n? - I rather think that the n has clearly been erased, and perhaps the e also; that is, perhaps the second e in the word fifteen; upon the strictest attention, I am much inclined to think the conjecture which I offered last is correct; that is that the letter e as well as the n, have both been erased, because there seems to be the least but some running ink at the latter end of this substituted stroke for the y, it seems to be jagged and incorrect, more so than it would have been if written upon the original letter.

Then you say, you seem to incline to think, that both those letters have been erased? - Yes, and again because I cannot trace under that half of the letter y any other ink, which in another instance in the note I do; because I do not trace under that the mark of any other letter; there is a small difference in the blackness of the ink, which I attribute to the spreading upon the erasure, fresh ink, and its sinking in.

Mr. Graham. I submit these are observations for the Jury to draw.

Court. They are reasons which he has assigned, having said he believed the alterations to be made in that manner, being matter of observation, the Jury can draw it to be sure, but they are proper questions.

Mr. Bower. It rather appears to me, that the erasure, that is to say, that there had been by a knife or other instrument on the paper, a running, rather to the left hand of the stroke, which I have described to be joined to the first e, a little in the additional part of the letter, it seems to me rather to extend beyond that mark, but the whole of the alteration seems to be most bunglingly executed, and therefore further than conjecture it is impossible for me or any other person to say.

Court. To be sure the Jury must judge intirely? - The next alteration which may have taken place is by the addition of the letter s to the word pound, but I think that stood originally pounds, and that it is now as it was originally, pounds and not pound, as to that I will not say more, because I attended literally to the draft, and I think it was so, because it would not have been so correct.

Court. That is not one of the alterations laid, and it seems to be perfectly immaterial as the indictment states it, I observe, that from that time the indictment charged it both wrote pounds and pound, but without charging that it is made; none of the counts charge any alteration to have been made in that word; if it did, that would be a material piece of evidence; but the counts themselves vary, some of

the counts stating it to be pound, and some of them stating it to be pounds; but none of the counts charge the word itself to have been altered.

Mr. Graham. It is by adding the letter s to the word pound? - As I recollect it is so in two of the counts, I heard Mr. Bower read it.

Court. Let me look at the indictment itself, for it certainly is not so in the abstract.

Court, (looks at the indictment.) The two first counts state the alteration that has been in substance given in evidence, and take no notice of the alteration of the word pounds; and they state the draft as having upon it the word pounds; the third count states that the word stood pound; the fourth count states that the letter s had been blotted out from the word pound? - I take the liberty of saying that I did fancy the letter s to have stood now as it was written originally.

Do you think so on memory of the draft, or on inspection? - I do on memory of the draft, because I very accurately attended to it, and I should have observed that it was not quite correct, if it had been the word pound instead of pounds, indeed Mr. Bower would not have needed the correction from me; there appears then to have been one other alteration, a material one in the figures, which were originally 15, turned into 50 as I conceive in this manner, I think the I in fifteen has been erased, and a 5 substituted in its place, there has been no easure committed on the figure 5 of the 15, but that 5 is by ink changed into an o; I am not aware of any other alteration in the draft, I said before I believe, that I had put this with two bank notes, which I inclosed with other papers, to my clerk, and these bank notes and this draft were directed to Mrs. Mattingley; perhaps it may be right to say, that I was sending to her as part of an annuity, which I for many years had paid her.

Mr. Graham. There seems to be a material objection to the competency of Mr. Lane; is is not an obligatory annuity; you have not executed any instrument for the payment of it? - I have not.

Mr. Silvester. When did you first see or meet with the prisoner at the bar, when and where, and what passed at the meeting?

(The note delivered to Mr. Shelton.)

T. Lane, Esq. The first time I ever saw the prisoner at the bar in my life, to my knowledge, was on the 23d of April last, in the chambers of Mr. Bower in Lincolns Inn; it was the day of his commitment, be it what day it might; but I think it was the 23d of April; a message from Mr. Bower had taken me thither in great haste, I presume I should be as accurate as I can, as to the words that passed that were used by the prisoner, and in his presence, I shall mention no other words than what were used in his presence: says Mr. Bower to me, so, Mr. Lane, says he, there has been a capital forgery committed on this draft of mine which I gave to you at Hereford; I think they were his words, standing up and looking very much distressed at the subject, as were we all.

Mr. Graham. The prisoner was then by? - I will not tell you one word, nor a letter, not an atom but what passed in his presence. God bless my soul! says I, I am very sorry for it. Good God! or some involuntary and strong exclamation. Yes, Sir, says he, it has been altered from a 15 l. to a 50 l. do look at it, (I am attempting to give the words as near as I can, but will not affect to say that I am accurate to the precise words, but as near as I can, and the substance I do not vary it) do you recollect what you did with it? feeling much agitated by the question, and the discovery he had so made to me, of the forgery in this draft which he had kindly given to me, I had prudence enough to consider

for a second or two before I gave an answer; I turned round, and having considered for a second, I said yes, I do, perfectly well, I have no doubt but I can trace it with the utmost ease; I think Mr. Bower then said, well, Sir, you must do it, or you must endeavor so to do, or to that effect: Mr. Bower then told me, the prisoner being present, says he, this gentleman I believe, saying Mr. Slack, or whether he mentioned his name or not I cannot tell, but the prisoner, says, he received it for some goods he sold to a Lady, who laid out 40 l. with him; I think who laid out 40 l. was his expression, I am not positive whether he said 40 l. or 50 l. but I think he said 40 l. in goods, and took them away in a hackney coach: Mr. Bower going on says, he has seen the Lady often, he says, but does not know her name or place of abode: I think Mr. Bower added then, she is a pale thin woman, of about five and thirty, that was Mr. Bower's giving to me (in the presence of the prisoner) the relation the prisoner had before given to him; I think Mr. Bower added that, but of that I will not be positive, I think he added a pale thin woman of about five and thirty: during this part of the conversation I think Mr. Bower and Mr. Ewings were both present, and I rather believe, but am not not positive, that when the conversation had gone this length, that Mr. Bower called me aside into another room, and that Mr. Ewings went away; but I will not affect to be positive whether Mr. Ewings heard this or not, but I think he did.

Court. To what passed in the other room we cannot ask you of course? - I retired with Mr. Bower into the other room, and left the prisoner in Mr. Bower's chambers two or three minutes, I rather think Mr. Ewings was with him then, but of that I am not positive, I took upon myself then to speak to the prisoner, wishing to learn from himself his story, that he so related to Mr. Bower; I wished to know accurately and clearly and precisely what he said, I rather believe I said to the prisoner

"a tall pale woman of five and thirty;" for Mr. Bower said so to me, I certainly did repeat it.

Mr. Graham. If you do not recollect it, you had better not speak it, because if you only heard it? - I rather think I did, but I do not speak positively, I said to the prisoner, this lady laid out 40 l. with you and upwards, and took the things away in a hackney coach.

Court. You repeated so much of what Mr. Bower had said interrogatively? - Just so: Yes Sir, said the prisoner, 40 l. and upwards, the precise amount I cannot tell you, my books will tell you that; Sir, says I, I do not mean the precise sum, but upwards of 40 l. Upwards of 40 l. yes Sir, says he, upwards of 40 l.

Mr. Graham. are you positive as to that? - I am, I will add that there is not a little of my evidence that I have not mentioned to Mr. Bower, choosing to confirm my evidence by his, before I was certain; he repeated that a second time; I had my reasons for choosing to make him particular; I said, as to her name or place of abode, you do not know; No Sir, I do not, says he, the lady I have often seen at my shop, but her name or place of abode I do not know; I think he repeated the words I have previously made use of; I do not recollect any thing material which passed at that time.

Court. As to the substance of this conversation you speak with certainty? - Literally as near as I can recollect, but to the substance, I speak most positively.

Mr. Silvester. Have you any doubt that he told you he did not know the person's name and place of abode? - I have not any doubt, for he repeated it twice, and also that the amount of the purchase would appear in the books; when Mr. Bower and the prisoner and myself went our of Mr. Bower's chamber's together, Mr. Bower saying in the presence of the prisoner and myself, that he

was going to Bow street, says he, we must go to Bow street; I went immediately to Mrs. Mattingley, I shall not repeat any thing that passed there, unless you wish it.

Court. Not unless you are asked by the prisoner's council? - Mrs. Mattingley lives in Long Acre.

How soon after did you see the prisoner again? - I will not take upon myself to speak to minutes, or indeed perhaps to a quarter of an hour, but perhaps it might be an hour, as soon as I got to Lincolns Inn, I called on Mr. Bower, he was not returned, as soon as he was returned, he sent me word, and I called on him; and as we were going together to Mr. Bower's chambers, I turned my head, and saw the prisoner on the other side of the new Square, Lincolns Inn, the prisoner saw us too, for he immediately came across towards us, and he accosted me, and said Mr. Lane, have you seen Mrs. Mattingley? upon which I started much amazed, and with great sternness said, yes, Sir, I have; have you seen her twice? (said he quickly) no, Sir, says I, I have not, in the same stern manner; why, said I, have you seen her? very sharply; Yes, Sir, said he, I have; I did not ask any further question at that moment, nor did any thing further pass between us, for a few seconds; he put himself by my side for a few paces, as one of the company, I holding Mr. Bower's arm, as we were walking looking at the ground, Mr. Bower and myself were not attending to the prisoner; I think when we came to the corner of Lincolns Inn New Square, round which we were going to turn, to go into Portugal Street, the prisoner first spoke again, he began the conversation, he seemed (I should say) in vast agitation, and he said, pray Mr. Bower, will you give me leave to speak to you? no, said Mr. Bower; you must not speak to me, Mr. Slack; he repeated, pray Mr. Bower, will you give me leave to speak to you? in terms of anxious entreaty; for God's sake, says Mr. Bower, Mr. Slack do not say any thing to me, I may hereafter be obliged to tell the conversation which might now pass between us, I beg of you not to speak, I cannot hear you: we passed on then for several paces, without any other words passing between us, when we came I think twenty or thirty yards in Portugal Street, keeping on the right-hand side of the way, which is not much frequented, Mr. Slack changed his position, and quitted my left-hand side, and went towards Mr. Bower; Mr. Bower and me having separated, we were walking singly, and he several times made fruitless attempts to gain an audience of Mr. Bower, and I do not think any other conversation passed between us, unless it might be a repetition of similar expressions, between that spot of ground and Russel-court, Covent Garden; I will not be positive whether that repetition might be made often, but perhaps once or twice; and I think in Russel-court, but I am positive there or thereabouts, he would speak, in spite of the humane caution he had received, and he said for God's sake Mr. Bower, do speak to my friends, for I have very good friends; I think Mr. Bower said, it is in vain, Mr. Slack, your solicitation to me, I must do my duty, it is my duty to investigate the matter, and the guilt must fall; let it fall where it may; he repeated again nearly in the same terms, do for God's sake speak to my friends; then turning round to me, he said, do, Mr. Lane, pray do Sir; upon which I said, Mr. Slack, do not speak to me, it is impossible for me not to do my duty; I am not aware that he repeated any other, or different words, between that place and Bow-street; and just before Mr. Bower and he went into Bow-street, I said, I will go and fetch Mrs. Mattingley as fast as I can; I said in a low voice but audible, and I believe both did hear, they were both together; I addressed myself to Mr. Bower, I will go and fetch Mrs. Mattingley as fast as I can, I shall be back again in five minutes I dare say; I did go up to Mrs. Mattingley's house, with a view to find her, and left Mr. Bower and

him together at the office door, Mr. Bower was saying some words, what I did not hear.

Court. Up to that time the prisoner went voluntarily with you, without any compulsion? - Quite so; quite so indeed, for I myself had gone many paces before, that I might not seem to be a restraint upon him, and Mr. Bower apparently was very much intent upon his own thoughts.

There were no means taken to prevent his escape? - Certainly not, it was far from a wish that he should not; I went immediately for Mrs. Mattingley, who was not at home, I learned she was gone to my chambers, I run there as hard as I could, and found her there in a very different state of mind to what I did before, as I had not at that time apprised her of any particulars of the case, I had not told her of any forgery having been made, I made an excuse to her, I had not apprized her that any forgery had been committed, that was when I first saw her, I had seen her but once, then I called a hackney coach, handed her into it, and we went to Bow Street, I apologised very much to Sir Sampson Wright, I believe, and Mr. Bower for keeping them so long, and mentioned to them my reasons for staying; I was not present at the time any thing was taken down in writing, that was when he and Mr. Bower were together, while I went to Mrs. Mattingley's; this time I am mentioning is the second time the prisoner came before the magistrate, and the first time I was there, I do not believe that there was any thing else passed particular.

Mr. Graham. I understand you to say, that you had in the same letter sent Mrs. Mattingley two ten pound notes? - I said I had, being part of an annuity I call it, I mean an annual sum that I had paid her for some time.

Had you at any time sent any drafts to Mrs. Mattingley from that circuit? - No, certainly not, I actually attended to this being quarter day.

Had you made her any remittance before at that time from that circuit? - I had not, I am certain she had not a bank note when I left London, three weeks before, because I had given her some money myself.

You represent yourself to have left Mr. Bower's chambers some little time, and to have returned, when the prisoner made that enquiry of you, whether you had seen Mrs. Mattingley? - I said I could not say whether it was an hour or not, it was while I went to talk to Mrs. Mattingley, went to Mr. Bower's chambers, and found he was not at home, went to my own, and left word for him to send to me.

You do not know where the prisoner had been during that interval? - I do not of my own knowledge; Mr. Bower and the prisoner went from his chambers, where Messrs. Gosling's clerk, the prisoner, Bower and I were together: Mr. Bower and the prisoner went to Bow Street, I left them at that time, and went to Mrs. Mattingley's.

Court. So in the interval the probability was Mr. Bower and the prisoner had been to Bow-street? - I could speak positively to that, they had been at Bow-street, because it was mentioned in the prisoner's presence afterwards, that they had been there; I heard it said when I was at Bow-street afterwards, that they had been there.

During the time you was at Mr. Bower's chambers, previous to their going to Bow-street; do you remember that any mention was made of the name of Mrs. Mattingley? - I am sure that there was no mention in the prisoner's presence of the name of Mattingley, or any other thing like it; I am very clear and positive that there was not any mention of any name whatever; and that caused me to describe, what I really felt, a great surprise, at his asking me afterwards.

Had you conversation with Mr. Bower (not in the presence of the witness) had you mentioned the name of Miss Mattingley to Mr. Bower? - I had, but had not told him where she lived, nor did he know, for he asked me afterwards, nor

did he know till they got the door of the public-office, I said to him I will just go up to Long-acre for Mrs. Mattingley, she does not live an hundred yards from hence.

Court. You are sure there had been no mention of Mrs. Mattingley in the prisoner's presence before he mentioned it, but that you had mentioned it to Mr. Bower but had not told him where she lived, till you came to the door of the office in Bow-street; had you told Mr. Bower that you had sent the fifteen pound draught which you received from him to Mrs. Mattingley? - Upon recollection I am not quite sure that I had even mentioned her name, I am not quite sure, but rather think I might.

I understood you to mention just now that upon recollection you had? - You question suggesting to my memory precisely what passed, I am not certain, that I used her name at all to him, I used another expression.

Did you mean to explain to Mr. Bower what you had done with the draft? - Yes.

Then I should imagine; consult your recollection upon it; I should naturally imagine that you would mention the name of the person you sent it to? - You may think so, but the fact was, that I described her by another name.

Could Mr. Bower understand at all by that? have you reason to believe that Mr. Bower could understand it was Mrs. Mattingley; had he known her before? - I do not believe that at that moment Mr. Bower ever knew the name of Mrs. Mattingley; I have no reason to believe that he knew her name.

Then have you any reason to believe, that Mr. Bower ever knew that there was a person, to whom occasionally you did make those sort of payments? - No, he did not; no man alive knew it, unless a confidential brother.

Excuse me; have you any reason to know, that he knew you had a certain connection with a person of the name of Mrs. Mattingley? - Most certainly, because I had spoke to him about it before.

Did you mention to him the purport for which you wanted the draft? - Most certainly not, it was in the court.

Did he know the purport? - I am certain he did not, because I had applied all round the town for 15 l. or 25 l.

Then from that moment to the moment the prisoner accosted you, as you represented him, you had not mentioned to Mr. Bower, during that interval, the name of the person to whom you addressed those notes? - I cannot say that, I will not say that I have not mentioned Mrs. Mattingley's name, but I am rather inclined to think, that the expression I used was of a different sort to her name.

During any part of the conversation that took place in Mr. Bower's room, had you by any gesture, or by any language that you had held, intimated to him any suspicions that you had of his being guilty of altering the note? - I did not directly or indirectly make the slightest mention to Mr. Bower, of any thing that passed between me and the prisoner, except that Mr. Bower's attention being employed in looking for some papers, I called his attention, and said, Mr. Bower, be so good to attend to us; and then I asked my questions I have repeated to you, making Mr. Bower hear what he said; Mr. Bower had first given me a detail; what he represented the prisoner to have said; it was in the presence of the prisoner and Mr. Bower: I have before said, I am not sure whether he was in the room or not; the description that Mr. Bower had given me was quite correct; whether the prisoner would repeat the same description, therefore I put what I said to you before:

"then, Sir, it was a pale thin woman of five and thirty?" I put the material part of this relation of Mr. Bower into questions.

I suppose your intention was sufficiently obvious to the prisoner? - I cannot say that.

At the first conversation, the prisoner

had reason to suppose he was suspected? - Do you wish me to give an answer to that?

Had you communicated to the prisoner the suspicions of your own mind? - I will not say he was aware of it; to say the truth, it was rather my intention, that he should suppose I did not suspect him; I did not want to put him on his guard, but the contrary.

When you perceived him as having come over to you from the opposite part of the inn, to Mr. Bower's chambers, was there any anxiety in his behaviour? - There certainly was a great deal.

Then was not that agitation encreased on your addressing him sternly, in the manner you have represented? - I cannot say it was at that moment, but I do not think his feelings appeared to have changed, or to be altered, between his first address, my stern answer, and his second interrogation; I am pretty clear it was so, for his manner struck us both.

Now you say, when this passed, and while Mr. Bower was gone to Bow Street, you went in search of Mrs. Mattingley? - I went to her house, and found her at home, and had a great deal of conversation with her without apprizing her of the forgery.

I speak of the second time going in search of her? - I found her from home, and I then went to my chambers and found her there.

I understand you to say, you found her in a situation very different from that in which you had left her the first time of your calling upon her? - I did.

What was the difference of her situation? - She was very much alarmed at something or other which I had not communicated to her, she was apparently in a very considerable agitation, it was an agitation (I do not know whether I ought to say what passed on that subject) but I wish correctly to describe, I cannot so correctly describe it as by using her words.

Mr. Silvester. I shall certainly ask you.

Mr. Graham. Give me the note: can you take upon yourself, from your recollection of this note to say whether the ee's in the word fifteen as you suppose it to have been, were closed ee's, or whether they were open ee's? - I have said before, and I repeat now, that I believe the first letter e in that word in the body of the note, which was originally fifteen, continues as it was originally, I think the first e is not altered at all, that is my opinion; with respect to the second e, I apprehend it to be altered.

Do you apprehend that to have been altered from an open e originally, or from a closed e at the top? - I cannot say, I understand the erasures to be confined to the two last letters of the word fifteen.

Mr. Silvester. You saw Mrs. Mattingley much agitated, much alarmed, in great agitation? - I did.

What was the occasion of that agitation.

Mr. Graham. My Lord, I certainly do object to the enquiring into that alarm, I wish to be informed of the fact in which she then was; with respect to particular conversations that might have passed between Mr. Lane and that Lady; the clear simple fact is the thing to which the enquiry particularly applies.

Court. I think at present the objection is right, a very little further of your examination would have let in this examination of Mr. Silvester's, but it seemed to me, that you stopped in time, because you had got nothing beyond the fact of Mrs. Mattingley's situation, and she was in a very different state to what he had seen her in before; Now in that state I cannot permit Mr. Lane to say what was the cause of that agitation; if Mrs. Mattingley is called, I think we may ask her.

(The note read and examined by the record.)

"March 24th, 1788. Please to pay to

"John Lane, Esq. or bearer, fifty pounds,

"for your humble servant, Fos. Bower;

"50 l. (and two cyphers.) To Messrs.

"Goslings; bankers."

Mr. Graham. My Lord, the note is read, and it is laid that on the 23d of April, &c. My objection is upon the evidence now given on the face of that indictment.

Court. It will be matter for the consideration of the Jury, that together with the inspection of the note and comparing it with the record will possess the Jury of the question; for it seems to me, that the erasures are so laid in the indictment, as to require a very strict proof; I doubt whether they need to have been so laid, if it had been laid that the word fifteen was altered to fifty, it would have been sufficient: It is impossible to be too accurate.

THOMAS OLIVER sworn.

I am clerk to Mr. Lane, I live in Lincolns Inn; I received a letter from Mr. Lane on the Hertford assize, on the 24th of March, I am certain to the day; there were several letters, and among the rest, there was one to Mrs. Mattingley, which I left on the afternoon of the same day that I received it, at her lodgings, in Long Acre.

Mr. Knowlys. You know nothing of the contents? - No.

MELISSA MATTINGLEY sworn on the VOIRE DIRE.

Mr. Graham. You paid this note in part payment for some goods that you bought at Mr. Slack's shop? - Yes, I did, for some things that I had bought before, the amount was 3 l. 3 s. 1/2 d. or 2 1/2 d.

Mr. Graham and Mr. Knowlys, Councel for the prisoner, objected to the reception of Mrs. Mattingley's testimoney, which was over-ruled by the court.

MELISSA MATTINGLEY sworn in chief.

Where do you live? - In Long Acre.

Where did Mr. Slack live? - In James Street, Covent Garden.

How long have you known Mr. Slack? - About seven months.

What kind of shop did he keep? - Part a linen drapers and part a haberdashers shop.

Have you been in the habit of dealing at that shop often? - Very often, I do not suppose I passed a week from the first time.

Did he know where you lived? - Yes, almost from the first of my dealing with him.

Did he use to send goods to your house? - Sometimes.

Did you in March last receive a letter from Mr. Lane from the circuit? - I did.

What did that letter contain? - It contained a 15 l. draft, and two bank notes of 10 l. each.

Do you recollect on whom the 15 l. note was drawn? - Messrs. Goslings, Fleet Street.

What did you do with the note which come in that letter from Mr. Lane? - I paid it to Mr. Slack for a small bill that I owed him.

What was the amount of the bill you owed him? - It was 3 l. 3 s. and some odd halfpence, but I only paid him the 3 l. 3 s.

What did you pay him with? - With the 15 l. note.

Was it the same note you had from Mr. Lane? - It was the same note, I never had another note in my life of that value, the bank notes were ten pound notes.

Do you recollect the day, or how soon it was after you had received it from Mr. Lane, that you paid it? - I received it the 24th of March, and I paid it away either the 26th, 27th, or 28th; it was either Wednesday, Thursday or Friday, I do not know which day.

Be so kind as to look at that note? - (Looks at it.) I have seen it before.

What do you think of it? - I cannot say it is the note I paid Mr. Slack.

But you are certain of the note you received in Mr. Lane's letter was the same note you paid to Mr. Slack? - Yes Sir, that I am certain of.

Do you recollect whether the sum of 15 l. was both in words and figures? - Both in words and figures I am very clear.

Having been there the 26th, 27th, or 28th, was you there after that for any other account, before he was taken up? - Many times, between the time I paid that

note and the time he was apprehended, I cannot say how many, but I should suppose perhaps a dozen times at least.

When was you first informed by the prisoner about this note? - The day he was apprehended.

What passed on that day? - It was the 23d of April, Mr. Slack came to my lodgings about a quarter after two, that was the first time he ever called at my lodgings in his life; when Mr. Slack came, the gentleman of the house rang the bell, and my sister opened the door, and he asked for Mrs. Mattingley, and he was desired to walk up stairs; and when I went into the room to him, he said as soon as he saw me, madam, you recollect the 15 l. note you paid me; upon which I said, yes, Mr. Slack, what of it? he said, madam, a very unfortunate circumstance has happened, I said; what Mr. Slack? I think I am wrong in what I said first, I think he first of all asked me, or whether it was afterwards, he asked me, if I had seen the gentleman who had wrote the note; I do not recollect whether it was first or last, I rather think it was first.

Court. That must have been after he asked you if you recollected the 15 l. note? - I said, no Sir, I have not seen the gentleman that wrote the note, but I have seen the gentleman I had the note from.

What answer did he make? - I cannot say, I believe he asked me where Mr. Lane lived, and I asked him what business he had with Mr. Lane, what he could wish to see Mr. Lane for; then I believe it was, he said a very unfortunate circumstance attended this note; then I asked him what; upon which he said he had paid this note to a man in Bread Street, that man had paid it to another man who had forged it, and had come to his shop, and bought goods to the amount of 50 l. that he had taken these goods away, and was gone to Ireland, and had paid him with this note; upon which I was very much surprised at his receiving this note for 15 l. and paying it away, and receiving it again altered to 50 l. and I said, Dear, Mr. Slack, could you be so very thoughtless as to receive this note and pay it away as a 15 l. note, and take the same note back again as a 50 l. note, without observing that the name and date and every thing corresponded? he said yes, he had indeed; I believe I repeated again that I was very much astonished, that he should not pay any more attention to it.

Mr. Graham. Was any body present at this conversation, was your sister present? - No, nobody was present, only just at the first part of it my sister was there.

Mr. Silvester. Go on? - When he found Mr. Lane had been with me he appeared much agitated and wished he had come a little sooner.

Mr. Graham. Did he express a wish that he had been there sooner.

Mr. Silvester. What did he say? - Something of that kind, that he was sorry he had not come there before, I do not know that he expressed a wish, he wished me to inform him where Mr. Lane lived, upon which I supposing Mr. Lane might not be at home then, I said, Sir, if you will tell me any business you have with Mr. Lane, I will go and inform him myself.

Had he before this said where the note was? - Why Sir, he had hinted in some slight degree, that the note was at Bow Street, upon which I said, then how came you here Mr. Slack? or something like that; and he told me that his boy was detained with the note; then I thought that the boy had offered the note for payment, and not Mr. Slack himself, that was a thought that struck me; he did not tell me, he was very anxious to know where Mr. Lane was; and I told him I would go to Mr. Lane, he wished me, I believe, to go to Mr. Lane, and tell him of the circumstance, the purport of what he said was, that he wished me to go to speak to Mr. Lane, that the note had been through several persons hands, and that the man being gone to Ireland, he thought he should not be able to bring him back, and the blame would fall upon himself, he wished me to say as much to Mr. Lane, that great as

the loss was, he would put up with it; and he could not trace the persons whom he had received it from, he would rather be at the loss of the note if Mr. Bower and Mr. Lane would agree, than have any thing further said about it; in some part of the conversation I might say, pray Sir is not the man to whom you paid this 15 l. note able to trace it any more than yourself; upon which he said, no, he was not? he repeatedly requested of me that I would go to Mr. Lane's, I promised him I would, I immediately put on my hat and cloak, and went down stairs with him, and he went out, and I went to Mr. Lane's.

Did any thing happen in your way to Mr. Lane's? - As I went along Lincolns Inn Fields I believe the wind might blow, I looked back, and I was almost at the top of the fields, and I saw Mr. Slack following me, upon which I felt myself very much hurt, thinking he might know something more than he had told me, seeing him there I rather thought myself inclined to go towards the houses, I looked to see if I was right, but I was not positive till I came to Holborn, then he overtook me just by Great Turnstile, I went through Turnstile, and down the top of Chancery Lane, not through Lincolns Inn; when he came up to me, he said, madam, have you been to Mr. Lane's? I said; no Sir, I have but just left home, I believe you know that, Mr. Slack, as you have followed; he said he wished very much to know what Mr. Lane said; I told him I would let him know when I came back; upon which he was turning to go towards Lincolns Inn Fields again; but I feeling myself very much hurt, supposing he was wrong in the story he had told me, thought I would speak to him before he went, and I called after him and said, I should like to speak to you Mr. Slack, if you please, and I said, I beg your pardon Mr. Slack for my suspicion, but if you know any thing further of the business than what you tell me, for God's sake run away.

What did he say to you? - I said I can tell you thus far, that you are in the hands of men of honor, but men that though they are very good gentlemen, they will see justice done; I then said, I speak Sir as your friend, and I beg for God's sake if you know any thing of the business, fly as far as you can fly; upon which he said I beg madam, you will not alarm yourself upon my account, as it is nothing that can hurt me; and seeing me very much agitated he quite composed himself, seeing me very much agitated and hurt; I felt as if I should fall down in the street; he composed himself.

What answer did you make to that? - I said, you know best, Mr. Slack, but I speak to you as a friend; I believe there was nothing farther passed; I then went to Holborn towards Lincolns Inn, to go down Chancery Lane, and I saw him returning into the fields.

Mr. Silvester. When you paid that small bill that you owed of 3 l. 3 s. had you a bill delivered? - I had, this is the bill, these are the articles I paid for that day, the bill is 3 l. 3 s. 2 1/2 d. (Bill of parcels handed up to the court.) I never owed him any bill but that and that which you have in your hand which is 2 l. 10 s. which I paid to his brother after he was taken up.

Mr. Graham. You have for some time dealt with Mr. Slack before this happened? - Yes, between six and seven months; his shop has not been open above eight months.

Have you ever paid him before this time in paper for any thing you had of him? - Never in paper, in my life.

Are you quite clear in that? - He once changed me a ten pound bank note, that might be about three months before this happened.

You say he had sometimes sent things in that you had, to your lodgings? - Very often.

Have you lodged in Long-acre the whole time of your acquaintance with him? - I have lodged in Long-acre three years.

Was you always called by the name of Mrs. Mattingley? - Yes.

Do you positively say that? - I have been called Mrs. Mattingley rather better than seven years.

What name did you go by before you was called Mrs. Mattingley? - I was called Miss Mattingley before.

Will you give me leave to ask you, within seven years was you never called by the name of Holton? - Never.

Was you never called by the name of Scott, or Miss Scott? - Never Sir.

So that the name of Mattingley, either as Mrs. or Miss. has been the only name you have ever assumed? - It has.

Is that your real name? - It is.

Were there any persons present at the beginning of the conversation, besides yourself and the prisoner, at your lodgings? - Only the maid, I think she shut the door, and heard Mr. Slack say, you recollect the fifteen pound note you paid me; that is all she told me she heard, I did not know she heard one word, when Mr. Slack was introduced to me, she shut the door and went away.

In what way did you receive this fifteen pound note, that you say was drawn on Messrs. Gosling, in a letter, or by a porter? - I received it in a letter, which I received from Mr. Lane's clerk, it was inclosed in that letter with two ten pound bank notes.

Are you clear in your recollection that you had paid for the goods? - I paid for the first bill, with the fifteen pound note.

That you are clear about? - Yes.

Did you pay into the hands of Mr. Slack, either of the two ten pound notes? - The ten pound note I got change of him for, was three months before, I did not owe him any bill, it was to pay for some trifling articles I bought of him.

Will you say on your oath, that in all the four, or five, or six months you are speaking of, you never paid to Mr. Slack's shop any thing more? - I can take upon myself to say, that to the best of my recollection I never changed any other note, but that ten pound note.

Did you ever send any body with any papers on your account, to be paid by the hands of Mr. Slack? - I never did.

How many times might Mr. Slack send goods to your lodgings? - Many times, seven or eight times, may be more, but not less.

ELIZ. MATTINGLEY sworn.

I live with my sister in Long-acre, I remember opening the door for Mr. Slack, I was at the door.

Mr. Graham to Mrs. Melissa Mattingley. Do you know a gentleman of the name of Windham or Windus? - I do not; I have heard that my Lord Egremont's brother's name was Windham: now I recollect that Mr. Slack has changed me two 10 l. notes, I changed one of them in Long-acre, and I have the other now.

Elizabeth Mattingley . I shewed Mr. Slack up stairs, he asked for Mrs. Mattingley; he said, Madam, you remember about a month ago, paying me a 15 l. note or bill; I do not know which; I left the room, and heard no more; as he was going down stairs, I heard Mrs. Mattingley say, you may be sure I will go directly; the shop is near our house.

Were you in the habit of dealing at this shop? - Yes, I have been sent there several times.

Did they use to send from the shop to your house? - Yes, they have.

Court. Are you certain as to the sum that he mentioned of the note or bill? - Yes, I am quite certain of it.

The remainder of this Trial in the next Part which will be published in a few Days.

Old Bailey Proceedings front matter, 7th May 1788.

Reference Number: t17880507-57
Navigation:

THE WHOLE PROCEEDINGS ON THE KING's Commission of the Peace, Oyer and Terminer, and Gaol Delivery for the CITY of LONDON; AND ALSO The Gaol Delivery for the County of Middlesex, HELD AT JUSTICE HALL in the OLD BAILEY, On Wednesday the 7th of MAY, 1788, and the following Days;

Being the FIFTH SESSION in the Mayoralty of The Right Honourable John Burnell , LORD MAYOR OF THE CITY OF LONDON.

TAKEN IN SHORT-HAND BY E. HODGSON, PROFESSOR OF SHORT-HAND; And Published by Authority.

NUMBER V. PART IV.

LONDON:

Printed for E. HODGSON (the Proprietor) And Sold by J. WALMSLAY, No. 35, Chancery Lane, and S. BLADON, No. 13, Pater-noster Row.

MDCCLXXXVIII.

THE WHOLE PROCEEDINGS UPON THE

KING's Commission of the Peace, Oyer and Terminer, and Gaol Delivery for the CITY of LONDON, &c.

Continuation of the Trial of Joseph Slack .

Mr. Sylvester. Did Mr. Slack know you as well as your sister? - Yes, he knew I belonged to Mrs. Mattingley.

Mr. Knowys. I think you say, you are sister to the last witness? - Yes, I was just in the room when Mr. Slack came in, I shut him into the room; and went across the room and heard them words.

Did you shut the door immediately on Mr. Slack's coming in? - When I had shut Mr. Slack into the room, I went across it immediately for something, I cannot tell what; my sister came in then, and I heard those words.

It is rather a singular remembrance! how long have you lived with your sister? - Almost seven years.

I think you said you changed a 10 l. note for your sister? - Yes, Sir, the prisoner changed it for me himself; I went by my sister's desire, she gave it me on purpose to change, I did not go for any thing, but to ask Mr. Slack to change the note.

Have you gone on any other occasion, but to change the notes at Mr. Slack's? - Never.

Do you recollect whether you have ever changed any other note for your sister? - I have before, but not since Mr. Slack opened shop.

Have you changed many in the course of your living with her? - No, I may have changed three or four; I am not sure.

JOSEPH HILL sworn.

I am clerk at Sir Sampson Wright's; I remember Mr. Slack being there, I took this entry, which I have here myself from his own mouth.

Did you take it accurately from what he said? - Yes.

(Reads it.)

Mr. Graham. By whose direction did you take that down? - Sir Sampson Wright's.

He directed you then to follow the prisoner in the account he gave? - He did.

Were you sworn? - There are some alterations of the place he called himself of, this is his exact account.

Did you write it in short-hand, or at length? - At length.

Court. You took this by the desire of the magistrate? - Yes.

Was the prisoner asked to sign it? - No.

Why was he not? - Sir Sampson Wright asked him how he came by it, and what was purchased, and there are his answers.

Court. Then it was only minutes taken by you, of what passed at the time? - No.

Court. Then you cannot read it; the witness may speak from his memory, he may refresh his memory with it? - I remember the prisoner coming on Wednesday, the 23d of April; in company with Mr. Bower, to the office in Bow-Street.

Mr. Knowlys. Are you reading that piece by piece, or are you refreshing your memory with it? - I am refreshing my memory.

Court. I understand that you speak from your recollection, now assisted by the minutes which you, yourself, took at the time? - Yes.

The note, or order for payment, was produced in the presence of the prisoner, the first time I saw it lay on the table, being asked how he came by it, he said, that about ten days, or a fortnight, preceding that day, at three in the afternoon, a lady came to his shop, and purchased haberdashery and linen-drapery goods, to the amount of 40 l. and upwards, and gave him the draft of 50 l. and he gave her the change in cash; he said that he had frequently seen her before, but did not know her name, or where she lived; he said she had taken the things away in a hackney coach, but he did not know the number; she was genteelly dressed, and appeared to be about 36 years of age, she was thin, and had a comely face, and he described her dress, that she had frequently come to his shop, but always took the goods home herself, that his boy was in the shop during the whole time; and his brother came in just as he had finished, but did not see the draft; he then said that she bought a piece of Irish cloth at three and six-pence a yard, and several other articles, he said that there was no entry in any books of any thing that was sold to her, that he did not keep a cash book, but kept a day book, in which were entered those articles only that were not paid for.

Did he say whether he gave any bill of parcels with the things? - He said he did not give her a bill of parcels, but that he cast up the different sums on a piece of paper, which he gave her, that she never dealt for so high a sum before; his boy came a little while after, and I saw him go away from the office in Bow-street, with Mr. Bower.

Was the boy examined in his presence at all? - No he was not.

Mr. Graham and Mr. Knowlys the prisoner's counsel, took two objections; one, that there was a variance between the alteration of the note, as described in the indictment; and as described by Mr. Lane in his evidence; and another, that the note was not set forth in the indictment, to be feloniously altered, but falsely; which was not consistent with the act of parliament.

Mr. Silvester contended; that the word feloniously was used in the part which charges the prisoner with uttering it, and that that was the offence, for which he was indicted. These objections were over-ruled by the Court.

Court to Prisoner. Mr. Slack, your counsel can only take objections in point of law; and examine your witnesses; if you wish to state any facts to the Jury, you must do it either in word, or by writing.

Prisoner. My Lord, I have witnesses.

(The Prisoners witnesses examined apart.)

THOMAS SLACK sworn.

The prisoner is my brother; I have been some time his shopman.

How long have you lived with the prisoner? - Ever since he began business, about eleven months ago.

Do you remember in April last, any lady that was a stranger to you, coming

to your brother's shop to purchase some goods, and paying for those goods in paper? - Yes.

Do you recollect what time in April it was? - It was about the beginning of April.

Do you recollect what goods she called for? - I was not in the shop at the time she bought the goods.

Did you come into the shop, before the goods were purchased? - The goods were purchased and packed up, when I came into the shop.

Court. Speak out and speak cautiously: did you see the lady pay for those goods? - Yes, I did.

Do you recollect what she paid for the goods in, whether money or bills? - She paid a bill.

Should you know the bill, if you was to see it again? - Yes.

(The Bill going to be shewn to him.)

Court. Let him first describe it? - It was a check of Messrs. Goslings.

Do you recollect for what sum it was? - It was for 50 l.

Upon whom was it drawn? - Upon Messrs. Goslings.

Do you recollect the name of the person that drew it? - It was drawn by Mr. Bower.

Do you recollect the name of the person, to whom it was made payable? - It was made payable to Mr. Lane.

Have you ever seen the note, since the time it was paid to your brother by this Lady? - No, I have not.

Do you recollect what the amount of the goods were, that the lady bought? - I do not exactly recollect.

Can you say about how much? - It was about 40 l.

Had you ever seen that lady before? - Yes, Sir, I have seen her frequently in the shop.

Did you know her name? - No, not her name.

How was the lady paid the difference, between the note and the goods which she bought? - In cash.

Did your brother give her any cash? - he did.

Let me ask you whether it is usual in your shop, and in your manner of doing of business, when you sell goods for ready money, to make entries in your books of those goods? - No, Sir, we never do it.

Now what kind of shop is yours, as to being light, or dark? - Why, Sir, it is rather a dark shop.

Is there any particular reason for its being dark? - In having few windows, and those windows blinded up, to make the goods appear to the best advantage.

You put the goods up to the window, to expose them for sale, and it will necessarily have the effect of darkening the shop? Yes.

Was there any thing that drew your attention particularly, to what was passing between your brother and this lady, that you recollect distinctly? - There was respecting the check, she asked my brother, she took out a red pocket book, she presented it to my brother, and asked if he would take it in payment.

You remember then the circumstance of her taking out the red pocket book? - Yes.

What did she do with the draft when she took it out of her pocket book? - She laid it on the compter before my brother, he took it up and looked at it, and laid it down immediately.

Did you take it up also in your hand? - Yes, Sir, I took it up immediately, on account of her saying, would he take it in payment, I took it and looked at it myself.

Can you take upon yourself to say, it was for 50 l.? - For 50 l.

Court. You were in the shop when she took out this note, from her pocket book? - Yes.

You have seen the lady often? - Frequently, she has been in the shop.

Should you know her if you saw her again? - Yes.

Have you ever seen her since that time? - I have never seen her since that time.

How came you to take up the draft, to look at it? - The reason why I took it was, she asked my brother if he could take it in payment, that made me anxious to see it, in order to judge if it was a good one.

This lady was an entire stranger, both to you, and your brother; as to her name and where she lived? - Yes.

Have you ever had drafts of Mr. Bower's hand writing before? - Not that I recollect, my brother might have.

Then do you know how your brother came to take a note for so large a sum as 50 l. of a stranger, of a gentleman, whose hand writing he was perfectly unacquainted with? - I do not know what my brother's reason was for taking it.

Did he ask any questions who Mr. Bower was? - He asked a question or two, he asked her who Mr. Bower was; she said he was a gentleman that lived in Lincoln's-Inn.

Did not he ask her at all who she was? - No, he did not.

You looked at this, did you look at it so that you could take upon yourself to swear what sum it was for? - Yes, Sir.

Are you certain it was for 50 l? - Yes, 50 l. I swear to.

Was it 50 l. both in letters and figures? - Yes.

Are you sure of that; you say it was a check on Messrs. Gosslings, in the name of Foster Bower, payable to Mr. Lane? - Yes.

You have been eleven months in business under your brother? - Yes.

Have you ever been in business before? - No, I have been in the same business before.

How long? - Three or four years.

Have you seen many banker's checks during that time? - I cannot say that I have seen many.

You have seen bankers checks however? - Yes.

What sort of a check was this; in the first place are you sure it was a bankers check? - Yes.

You are sure of that? - Yes.

Can you describe a little what sort of check it is, before you see it, what part of it was copper-plate, and what part was writing? - I cannot say.

Therefore, now if you recollect so accurately, you have stated to me whose check it was, who it was drawn by, and who it was payable to, and that you are sure the sum was both in words and in figures 50 l. now what part of the check was in copper-plate, and what part was in writing? - I cannot say that, I perfectly recollect what I have said.

You recollect that from your view of the draft? - Yes.

Then from your view of the draft, what part of it was in copper-plate, and what part was in writing; you know bankers checks are a narrow slip of paper? - I do not think any part of it was copper-plate.

Upon what account then did you call it a banker's check? - By being drawn upon a banker.

Did you mean no more than that it was a draft on a banker? - Nothing more.

Do not you know the difference, having been so long in business; do not you know the difference between a common draft and check; do you know what a banker's check is; it is a narrow slip of paper with a correspondent part in a book, and one is cut out so as to be a check on the other? - It was a draft on common paper.

Then what did you mean by saying it was a check of Gosling's in Fleet-street? - I understood it to be the same as a check drawn.

Did you take notice to whom it was directed? - No.

Did you read the direction of it at all at the time? - On the back.

The direction of a bill is never on the back, but on the face? - It was drawn by Mr. Bower, and payable by Messrs. Gosling's.

How was it directed; how was the bill addressed? - I cannot perfectly recollect.

How do you know then that that was

to be paid by Messrs. Goslings? - That was what I took particular notice of.

Did you take particular notice of the date of the bill? - No, I did not.

Was it payable to bearer or order? - It was payable to Mr. Lane or bearer, I think, I cannot say perfectly.

Was there any indorsement upon it? - No, not any.

You are sure of that? - At that time there was no indorsement upon it.

Which of the Messrs. Goslings was it? - Mr. Gosling in Fleet-street.

Your brother knew nothing of Mr. Bower before? - I did not know any thing of him, my brother probably might.

And this lady you have never seen since? - I have not seen her since.

Has your brother taken any pains after her, to enquire after her, to find her out? - Not any.

Why has he not, when it is so material for his defence against this charge? - It would have been very material if we could have found her out.

In fact he has taken no pains at all to find her out? - Not that I know of.

What did he do with this bill after he had received it? - He put it in his pocket I believe.

This you think was about the beginning of April? - Yes.

Do you recollect how far in April? - I do not recollect.

Was it in the first, second, or third week in April? - It was either in the first or second week.

How came your brother to keep the draft so long before you carried it in for payment? - I know nothing of his cash account, he kept the cash himself.

You kept no entry for goods sold for ready money? - No, we did not.

Let the amount be to what it may? - Not any.

What means have you then of comparing your cash with your stock and with the goods sold? - By the cash we have in hand.

What check has your brother when he is absent from the shop as to what goods are sold in the shop when no entry of them appears? - There is the account of the money in the till.

Then he takes the word of the person in the shop when he is absent? - Yes.

Do you think you should know the draft if you saw it again? - Yes.

Mr. Graham. I understand you to say that the person who paid this draft to your brother, was a lady whom you had some time seen and did not know? - Yes.

Was it Mrs. Mattingley? - No.

Mr. Silvester. You knew Mrs. Mattingley perfectly well? - Yes.

Had she often dealings at your shop? - Yes.

Do you remember the note she paid at the shop? - No, I do not.

Did you never hear of any note she paid in? - I have heard of it, but never saw it.

Which way am I to understand you; have you heard of it as the note for 15 l. paid by Mrs. Mattingley? - Yes.

What is become of that note? - I do not know.

Did you never tell any body what is become of it? - No, I cannot say that I did.

Did you never say it had been paid away long ago? - I do not recollect that ever I did.

Come young man, recollect yourself a little; did not you tell somebody that as to that note, that had been paid a good while ago? - No, I do not recollect that I ever did.

Do you mean to swear that you never said that note that Mrs. Mattingley had paid in, had been in twenty different hands before the time they applied to you; did you say so? - No, Sir, I did not.

Take care what you are about, I caution you; look at these two ladies, did not you tell them, when they applied to you, and informed you of your brother's being in custody about this note; did not

you say that the note had been in twenty different hands? - No, Sir, I did not.

You hear me, you understand me? - Yes.

I do not want to entrap you, I assure you it is a painful thing for me to cross-examine you against your brother, but it is my duty; will you venture to swear that when Mrs. Mattingley come to inform you of the situation of your brother, you did not say that that note which she had paid in for 15 l. had been in the hands of twenty people? - I might, perhaps, say it had been paid away into twenty different hands, but I did not positively say that it had, for I did not know, I did not know that my brother had paid it away at that time.

Did not you inform them in the words I say, that that note had been paid away into twenty different hands by this time? - No, Sir, I did not, I said the bill might have been paid away twenty different times.

Do you know of their being at your shop? - Yes.

Do you remember their coming to inform you of your brother's situation? - Yes.

Did you tell them of this lady at the time? - I did not know anything of this note at that time.

When did you first learn about this note? - Mrs. Mattingley mentioned at this time that she paid my brother a 15 l. note, and by some means it was altered to 50 l. I said that the bill might have been paid to twenty different hands, but I did not know any thing about it, that was the word I said.

Then you did not tell them at all of this other note of this strange Lady's? - I did not know any thing at all of what my brother was taken up for.

You read the 50 l. note particularly? - I looked that over.

Was it payable to Mr. Lane, or Lane, Esq. or what? - I do not recollect particularly, it was to Lane or bearer.

But whether it was to Lane, Esq. or Mr. Lane, you do not recollect? - I do not recollect.

Now this other note of 15 l. you never saw at all? - No, I never saw that at all at no time.

Not at any time? - No.

If you was so accurate in the note, do you mean say, it was directed to any party there by the name, you know there are four partners; was it directed to them by name? - It was to Messrs. Goslings.

Was it telling where they lived? - I cannot recollect.

Was not the note directed to any particular place as Mr. Goslings residence? - I cannot recollect it was, it was Messrs. Goslings.

Are there many of that name? - I do not recollect.

What makes you so accurate in the sum, for the goods you know were all packed up before you came in? - I did not see any of the goods, they were packed up when I came in; they were on the counter when I came in, I never saw any of them, I took up the note and looked at it particularly.

Yet you cannot say to whom it was directed? - It was to Messrs. Goslings, that I recollect, but not the place of residence.

Are you sure it was not Fleet-street? - I cannot say.

How came you to mention Fleet-street, just now? - I did not know of any other Goslings but that, I had been there before, I knew Mr. Gosling, the Banker, very well, but whether this was Mr. Gosling's, Fleet-street, I cannot tell; my brother generally took his drafts himself, if I was going into the city, perhaps I might take it, I never took any of 15 l. to Mr. Goslings, never.

You do not know whether any such one was taken there? - No.

What o'clock in the day was it? - I cannot recollect the time of the day.

Was it light? - Yes, it was light, it was in the day time.

Light enough to see and look at the draft I take it? - Yes, it was light enough

to look at the draft, we had not lighted candles.

Did you examine the draft accurately? - I did not take particular notice of it only the sum, and that it was drawn on Messrs. Gosling, and I recollect, Foster Bower.

Was in full length? - Yes, it was.

Mr. Bower's name was Foster Bower , at full length? - Yes, it was, that I am sure of.

As to Mr. Lane, whether it was Lane, Esq. or Mr. Lane, you cannot be positive? - No, I cannot.

Nor are you positive whether it is to Lane or bearer, or order? - I think it was bearer, but I do not recollect.

Are you sure it was either Lane, Esq. or Mr. Lane? - It was one of the two.

Are you sure as to the christian name? - No, I am not; it was Lane, I know perfectly well.

All you are sure of was to the sum, and to the name of Foster Bower being wrote at full length? - That I am sure of.

You have not the least doubt about the sum any more than the name? - No.

Now look at that note and see whether Foster Bower is wrote at full length, (looks at it) is that the note the Lady gave? - Yes.

Is the word Foster at full length? - That is what I am looking for.

Mr. Graham. It is Fosr.

Mr. Graham. You have not seen this note, I understand you to say, from the time it was first paid into your brother's shop? - No, I had not.

Then the impression that you took up was that Foster Bower was written at full length? - I took it to be at full length.

You find you are mistaken in that particular? - Yes.

Do you know any other instance in which your brother had drafts in his hands after these drafts were payable? - Yes, Sir, I know he has frequently had drafts in his hands some time after they were payable.

Court. You are shopman to the prisoner? - Yes.

Had he any other person in the shop but you at that time, has he any other shopman? - The boy, but I do not recollect whether he was in the shop at the time.

Do you recollect whether he was or was not? - No, I do not.

What is the boy's name? - John Payne .

What age is he? - I fancy he is about nineteen or twenty.

JOHN LOCKEE sworn.

I live in Poland street.

Did you ever discount a note with the prisoner at the bar? - I never did, but I desired my servant to go and get cash at a banker's for a draft, and she went of her own accord to Mr. Slack's, it was a check on a banker, I had the check on the 7th, and I never had any intelligence of it on the 15th or 16th, I cannot recollect the month.

Who demanded that money of you afterwards? - Joseph Slack demanded the money of me.

How long after? - It was, I dare say, fourteen days, I am not sure, I know it was after the 7th of September or October, it was due directly; it was demanded fourteen days after, my friend who had given me the check, had in the interim drawn out his money, I was surprized when Mr. Slack called upon me for the money.

Court. Who was the check payable to? - It was not payable to me.

What was your friend's name? - I conceive that has no business here.

Yes, it has, if you chuse to give evidence of the transaction, you must give the whole evidence. - His name is Mr. Firth.

What is his christian name? - James Firth , simply the name of Firth.

The draft was signed James Firth ? - It was, it was made payable to me, or bearer, for 30 l.

You did not know the prisoner before? - I never saw him in my life-time.

How came he to demand the money of you? - I will tell you, after the young woman had been to receive the cash, I had no knowledge of it, I thought it came from Mr. Harrison's the banker's.

What banker was it drawn on? - Harrison.

Where? - I believe it was it was in Ludgate-street, or Mansion-house-street.

Court. Is there such a banker's?

Jury. Yes, there is, opposite the Mansion-house.

Have you ever dealt in Slack's shop? - No, the young woman told him where I lived.

How came that? - Oh, he called upon me, I told him; Mr. Slack, I am not obliged to pay this check, but as you are a young man coming to business, rather than you should lose the money, I will pay it you, and I did so; at least my friend produced the cash, and we paid the money.

Mr. Silvester. You just looked at the draft? - And the check I gave the young woman to take to the banker's.

I do not understand you? - I only tell you that I had a check of 30 l. from James Firth .

What is Mr. Firth? - Why he is a haberdasher.

Where does he live? - In Ryder's-court, I believe you will call it; I am so apt not to remember the names, but it is by Newport-street, it is Ryder's-street, or Ryder's-court, Little Newport-street, haberdasher.

Are there any dealings between you? - Yes.

He owed you 30 l.? - No, he did not.

How came he to give you a 30 l. draft? - Because I had given him a bill for 55 l. and he gave me the draft, because I wanted money immediately for furniture I had bought, he gave me a check on the banker for 30 l.; I am sorry I am obliged to expose my friend.

Then this is not the one you gave your maid? - Yes, her name is Davis.

Is she in in court? - No, I desired her to go and fetch cash for this draft, ( Mary Davis is not in court, nor in any of the galleries, she is up stairs in the housekeeper's room) I told her to go to Mr. Harrison's, I lived then in Newport-street; I told her to go to the banker's to receive the money for that check.

You told her where Harrison lived? - Why, Sir, she could read herself, it was at the top of it, Harrison, Mansion-house-street.

Instead of that she went somewhere else, and got the money? - Yes.

Then when Slack applied to you for the money, you told him you was not bound to pay it? - I told him so.

When did you give him this caution, what month? - I cannot be positive, I believe it was October, but it either was September or October.

So then, so long ago as September or October last you told him, you was not bound to pay the draft, and told him not to leave drafts? - Yes, I did.

Court. What time was it you sent for this? - It was in the morning.

How long had she lived with you? - She had lived with me five or six months.

How long was she gone? - She was not gone long, I went into Poland-street at the time.

Did she tell you when she came back, who she got the money of? - She did not tell me.

You did not ask her at all? - No, I did not, she produced me the money, and I thought she had it at the banker's.

How long might she be gone? - I was not there, I was in Poland-street at the time, she gave the money to my wife.

How long was it before you got it? - It was, I believe about two or three o'clock.

You are sure she gave it to your wife, not to you? - Yes, I am sure of that.

MARY DAVIS sworn.

You know Mr. Lockee? - Yes.

Do you remember his giving you at any time a check, or draft to get money on? - Perfectly well, I cannot recollect when it was particularly.

Was it before Christmas? - Before Christmas a long while.

Where did you take that draft? - I took it first to a relation's of mine; he asked me who it was drawn upon, I told him I did

not know; he asked me who Mr. Firth was, I told him I did not know; my not knowing who Mr. Firth was, he would not pay it; I knew the prisoner.

Did you go with that note to the prisoner? - I did.

Had you known him any time before? - I knew him when he was shopman to Mr. Thompson.

Did you ask him to give you cash for that draft or not? - I did.

Did he give you cash for it? - He did.

How did he find where you lived, or where Mr. Lockee lived? - I met him several times before that, and informed him where I lived; he told me me he was going into business, and I gave some of his cards about.

Mr. Silvester. Did Mr. Slack know what business you was in? - Yes, at that time I lived with Mr. Lockee; I worked with Mrs. Lockee.

Then you was not a servant to Mrs. Lockee at all? - No.

What did Lockee say to you when he gave you the note? - Mr. Lockee came up stairs, and desired I would get cash for it as soon as possible.

Did he desire you to go to the bankers? - No, he said not to go to the bankers, for that would take up too long a time; I asked Mr. Slack, if he would be so kind to change that note for me, to give me the cash for it, and he took the note.

Did you know who it was drawn upon? - No, Sir; I really don't know; I told him it was for Mr. Lockee; Mr. Slack knew I was at Mr. Lockee's, that was all he knew of Mr. Lockee; he knew me.

As to Mr. Firth, you did not know who he was? - No, Sir.

How came you to pick out Mr. Slack to get this note changed? - I thought him a man in business, and likely to have the cash.

Did not you lay out a single farthing with him then? - No, he changed it merely to oblige me.

Lockee lived in Newport-street then? - - He moved to Poland-street, a very short time after: he moved at Michaelmas; I left them; I did not put my name upon it; I know it was signed, James Firth ; he drew the note payable to John Lockee , but who was to pay it, I cannot tell.

Court. Were you long gone? No, a very short time.

Can you read and write? - I can both.

Did Mr. Lockee complain of your having staid so long? - No, Sir, he did not; he thought I had made exceeding great haste.

What made him in such haste for the money? - The house that he took, the gentleman that was leaving it was going to sell some of his goods, and the auctioneer was to be there at a set hour, and Mr. Locke thought he would be waiting for him; he told me he wanted to get it before he went to Poland-street.

Then you did not wait till he was out of patience, and went without the money? - No, Sir.

You got in time to give it him before he went to Poland-street? - Yes I did.

Was Mrs. Lockee at home, or was she gone to Poland-street - She was at home.

Did she see you give him the money? - Yes.

You are sure of that? - Yes.

She was at home? - Yes.

Upon your oath, are you sure that both Mr. and Mrs. Lockee were at home when you brought back the money? - Yes.

You are sure they were both at home? - Yes.

Who opened the door to you when you came back? - The little daughter; I am not quite sure, whether Mr. Lockee was not gone, and Mrs. Lockee waited for the money; I am not quite confident.

Why you told me, that when you came back, he told you, you had made great haste? - Now I recollect myself; it was Mrs. Lockee told me I had made great haste; but I fancy Mr. Lockee, I think to the best of my remembrance, was gone.

Was not Mr. Lockee very angry with

you when your came home? - No, I do not recollect his saying any thing to me about stopping; I think he was gone.

Was he, or was he not gone, which will you stick to, for you have sworn both ways? - Upon my word I cannot positively say which, but I think he was gone; he came home to dinner, which I think was about one o'clock; Mrs. Lockee went after him with the money.

How came you to tell me just now, that he told you when you came back, you had made great haste? - It was Mrs. Lockee that told me so; a mistake will happen sometimes.

How came you to swear that you got back in time to give him the money before he went out? - I did not recollect he was gone, but I recollect Mrs. Lockee telling me I had made great haste.

Mr. Slack gave you the cash for the note very readily? - Yes.

Never asked you any questions about it at all? - No, he did not.

(The Prisoner was ordered a chair by the Court.)

JONATHAN BUNTING sworn.

I live in Cushion-court, Old Broad-street; I am a clerk to a woollen-draper.

Did you at any time discount a bill with the prisoner? - No, never.

Did you ever go with him on the subject of some bills? - I saw a bill which he discounted for a person once; the prisoner told me he had discounted it; I went with the prisoner for a bill; I saw the prisoner present it for payment; it was over-due two days to the best of my recollection; I saw the bill; I have known the prisoner I suppose better than ten years; I was bred up with him from a boy.

How old is he? - I do not know upon my word, about twenty-one to the best of my recollection.

And in the time you have known him these for ten years past, did you ever hear any thing unfavourable of his character? - No, Sir, never.

On the contrary, what character did he bear? - A very good character.

FRANCIS THOMPSON sworn.

Do you know of your own knowledge of any bills or notes that have been discounted lately by the prisoner? - No, I do not; the prisoner was clerk to me for about a year and half; I am a haberdasher; he was not in my business, he was clerk to me.

Was it in the course of your dealings to make any entries of such goods as you sold for ready money? - Oh dear! no; it is impossible; it is too trifling; we never book any thing we sell for ready money. I never knew the prisoner before he came to live with me; he was with me as a clerk; he managed my books, and he likewise took the charge of the money; he has had the receiving of all my money at times, and more especially when I was out of the way; I had another person, a shopman, that was a check upon him; I never found any thing wrong in him; I had a very good character of him; he might have done me a great deal of mischief, for he had it entirely in his power; he had a banker's check book lately; I have 350 l. of his in my hands at present; I have it in money, and two bills on demand, which bill I reckon as good as money.

Court. When was that placed in your hands, and for what purpose? - It was placed in my hands, I believe, for the purpose of satisfying his creditors; he is in debt considerably, though he has effects sufficient.

He was not embarrassed at all in his circumstances? - Of course, being in trede, he must become indebted to a set of creditors, but he has property on the premises in money and goods, to a considerable amount.

My meaning of the English word, embarrassed; I mean, when whether they have effects or property or not, they have more debt, than they can immediately pay, and are obliged to give security to their creditors, by making a deposit in the hands

of another person? - Clearly, in that case, this sum of money was put in my hands, in trust for his creditors.

Was that sum of money put into your hands since this prosecution was commenced? - Yes, it was; there was nothing put into my hands before then.

Mr. FENWICK sworn.

The prisoner was committed to me the 22d of last month, in the evening.

Can you give any account of his property that you have come to the knowledge of since that circumstance? - Yes; about eight in the evening, my maid servant came into my garden, and told me, my turnkey wanted me; I went into the kitchen where he was; he told me, (he is here present) that he had property of Mr. Slack's.

- BRINE sworn.

Do you remember giving to your master any property, any effects belonging to the prisoner? - Yes, the night I received him into custody, the 24th of April, to the amount of 373 l.

Where is that now? - My master I believe gave it to Mr Slack.

Mr. Thompson. This money was deposited in my hands only one day last week.

Court to Mr. Fenwick. What did you do with it? - He was committed on the 23d, on the morning I had it, I returned it to the prisoner at the bar; there were forty five guineas in cash and the remainder in bills.

The prisoner also called Francis Henderson , baker; Snowden, linen-draper; John Clare , linen-draper; Richard Tinkler , mercer; Peter Oliver, linen-draper; Gatfield, hatter; Pilgrim, lace-merchant; George Coleman , ribband-weaver; George Bell , publican; Alexander Sykes and Richard Thompson , haberdashers; Mason, gauze-weaver; and another; who all gave him an extraordinary good character.

Court. You cannot carry character further.

Mr. Graham. We have many more.

Court. Call John Payne .

Mr. Graham. He was not present.

The Jury retired for above an hour, and returned with a verdict,

NOT GUILTY .

Tried by the London Jury before Mr. RECORDER.

Old Bailey Proceedings front matter, 7th May 1788.

Reference Number: t17880507-57
Navigation:

THE WHOLE PROCEEDINGS ON THE KING's Commission of the Peace, Oyer and Terminer, and Gaol Delivery for the CITY of LONDON; AND ALSO The Gaol Delivery for the County of Middlesex, HELD AT JUSTICE HALL in the OLD BAILEY, On Wednesday the 7th of MAY, 1788, and the following Days;

Being the FIFTH SESSION in the Mayoralty of The Right Honourable John Burnell , LORD MAYOR OF THE CITY OF LONDON.

TAKEN IN SHORT-HAND BY E. HODGSON, PROFESSOR OF SHORT-HAND; And Published by Authority.

NUMBER V. PART IV.

LONDON:

Printed for E. HODGSON (the Proprietor) And Sold by J. WALMSLAY, No. 35, Chancery Lane, and S. BLADON, No. 13, Pater-noster Row.

MDCCLXXXVIII.

THE WHOLE PROCEEDINGS UPON THE

KING's Commission of the Peace, Oyer and Terminer, and Gaol Delivery for the CITY of LONDON, &c.


View as XML