Offence: Breaking Peace > riot
Verdict: Not Guilty
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301. HENRY JOHN MASKALL , apothecary , was indicted for that he, with forty others, and more, did unlawfully, riotously, and tumultuously, assemble, to the disturbance of the public peace, and did begin to demolish and pull down the dwelling-house of the Right Hon. the Earl of Mansfield , against the statute , June 7th .
Where do you live? - At No. 1, Weymouth-street.
About what time in the night or morning? - The first time I was there was about half after one as near as I can recollect.
That I presume was Wednesday morning? - It was.
What occasioned your going there? - I had spent the evening at Mr. Sparrow's, who keeps a house in Portland-street. A little after one I heard there was a fire in Queen-square. I had a wife on a visit to her father and mother in Devenshire-street; I was anxious left they should be frightened, and therefore I went there.
Did you know Lord Mansfield's house? - Perfectly well.
Give an account of the general disturbance you observed at that time about and in Lord Mansfield's house? - I saw a great mob and four or five fires, which were alight in the street. There were some people in the house flinging out the furniture.
What number of the mob do you conceive there were at that time assembled round the house? - A great number.
Were there a hundred, two hundred, fifty, or twenty? - There were a great number upon the Duke of Bedford's wall, a great number in the street, so that I passed with difficulty through the mob.
Then you was in your way to Devonshire-street? - I was.
At that time did you see the prisoner at the bar, Mr. Maskell? - I did.
Were you acquainted with his person before? - Some years. I have known him personally, though not intimately.
Whereabouts was he at the first time you saw him? - Standing facing Lord Mansfield's, by the fire, nearest to Lord Mansfield's door, with his hand upon a boy's shoulder who was putting books into the fire.
Did you observe whether he had any thing in his hat at that time? - Not at that time, I did not observe that he had any thing in his hat; I passed on immediately to Devonshire-street, to see if my wife and her father and mother were safe.
Explain to the jury what it was he was doing to the boy? - I looked on it that he was encouraging the boy; but I passed on; I did not then make observation, but passed on to Devonshire-street, to see if the family were safe. I did not then knock at the door for a very particular reason.
You did not stop but passed on? - I might be detained in passing by the door in the whole five minutes
Was this all you observed the first time when you was making your way to go into Devonshire-street? - I saw some furniture flying out, particularly a remarkable table, which struck my eye; it was thrown out of the two-pair-of-stairs room.
Was you near enough to observe what became of the boy, or what was done with the books he had with him? - There were several books which were burning upon the fire at the time, and this book; I saw the boy bring it down: he was a well dressed little boy. It was a large book; he just had come to the fire as Mr. Maskall clapped his hand upon his shoulder. The boy brought the book upon his head, it was a large book; it seemed to me to be a folio.
From the manner in which Mr. Maskall did that did it appear to you that it was done for the purpose of preventing the book from being thrown into the fire, or encouraging him? - He put his hand upon his shoulder in the manner one would to encourage a boy, to say good boy; but I was at such a distance that I did not mind the words.
Did you then go on to Devonshire-street? - I did, but I did not speak to any part of the family there, for I was pleased the family were a-bed for a singular reason; it was the only house I believe in the street that was not illuminated.
How long do you think it might be before you returned again into Bloomsbury-square? - About a quarter of an hour. I have in that neighbourhood a faithful honest servant, who lived with me many years, one Soss, an embroiderer; I went to see if he was safe, I saw him at the window that he was safe; then I returned again to Bloomsbury-square.
What time might it be before you returned to the square? - I stood some little time in Devonshire-street, to see if there was any light in the house, and I looked down into the area, to see if they had prudently concealed any light below stairs; seeing none, I would not disturb nor alarm my wife.
What is your conjecture as to the time? - I apprehend, from the time I left Mr. Sparrow's, till I got the second time back to Bloomsbury-square, that it must be near about two o'clock.
When you returned to the square, did you see the prisoner at that time? - Not immediately on returning to the square, for I stopped
What happened upon that? - A person upon my right hand, who stood even with me, said, Maskall, you are always in sedition, or you are a seditious person, I cannot say which, but words to that effect; I looked Maskall full in the face; he put his hand upon the man's shoulder that stood on my right hand between him and me, and said, That man in the black cockade (meaning me) is a spy; I had a black cockade in my hat.
How came you to wear a cockade? - I have had the honour to bear his Majesty's commission these thirty years.
In what capacity? - Upon the physical staff.
What is the nature of your appointment, what was you in the army? - In the last war surgeon to the Royal Dragoons, operating surgeon to the army. Since that I have been promoted.
You are entitled to pay? - Yes, and and to an honorary rank, I rank as a captain in the army. The man on my right hand next Mr. Maskall seised me by the collar, and cried out spies! spies! meaning me and my companion, as I supposed.
Court. This man, if I understand you right, had before said to Maskall, you are always in sedition? - No; another person who stood even with me said that; the person whom I made the remark to it was who called him seditious. Several people ecchoed his words; and the people who were about shoved me through the ring of people who were there, and then back again.
How far do you think you was shoved backwards and forwards? - About three or four paces backwards and forwards.
Was you by this shoving removed any farther from Mr. Maskall? - Getting back again I was shoved nearer to Mr. Maskall.
Did you afterwards make any observation upon Mr. Maskall's conduct? - I got hold of a person who had a leather apron on and appealed to him, thinking myself in danger, whether Lord George would not repeal the bill. By applying myself to these people, particularly a man whose button I laid hold of, who said Lord George would repeal the bill, I slipped from them, and then got behind Mr. Maskall. Just then the Guards came up; they came as from Russel-street way. I did not see the Guards till they were very close upon me. Maskall, who was before me at this time, pushed forwards some boys, and huzza'd and cried out, No Popery.
He or the boys? - He did, and the boys did the same.
How far distant might he be from the Guards at the time? - The ranks closed. Mr. Maskall went up close to some other of the mob, close to them; he huzza'd, and called out, No Popery.
Had he his hat on or off then? - He pulled off his hat and huzza'd, and said, No Popery. He had a blue cockade in his hat before he pulled it out. The mob pressed close on the Guards; the officer of the Guards pulled off his hat and told them that he would not hurt a hair of their heads, but desired them to disperse. I lost sight of Mr. Maskall. Then the Guards wheeled to the right; presently after I saw Maskall come near Bedford-wall again, and then there was a party of people, about a dozen, who came with a blue flag, and called out where next, where next! and then came up towards Mr. Maskall.
How near do you think they were to Mr. Maskall when they said where next? - They were about twenty yards I fancy from where we stood. They came very near to where Mr Maskall stood; and when they asked where next? I heard the word answered, Duke
Do you know who gave that answer, Duke? - I really believe it was Mr. Maskall. It was the tone of his voice, but I will not so positively swear that it absolutely was his voice; but I most firmly believe it.
What became then of those persons who had the blue flag before them? - They turned about and went away; and I think then they returned back again. I did not see them go to any particular spot; I saw them join the crowd.
How near were you to Mr. Maskall at this time or did you get near to him at any time afterwards? - At the time I came up to Mr. Maskall I might be a yard and an half or two yards from him.
Were you near enough to distinguish whether the voice which made that answer Duke was either the voice of Mr. Maskall or of somebody in his company? - I did not look at his face at the time the words were uttered or I might have been more certain, but I most firmly believe it was his voice from the tone, and the impression that his words had made on me but just before.
After that did you hear any thing said to Mr. Maskall, and any body with him, and any answer given by Mr. Maskall afterwards? - After that I saw Mr. Maskall go towards Russell-street, and I went towards home. I had occasion to stop at the corner of one of the streets, and Mr. Maskall with three or four persons whom I had seen him walk with towards Russel-street, seemed then to be halting and close to a bulk. I heard a man who had a paper in his hand say, Why leave out Peterborough and Bristol? Mr. Mascall was inarm-hold with another person, him, and there were three or four more with You said he halted? - Yes. I did not immediately follow them to Russel-street, out within a minute or two I did; and I stopped a minute or two at the end of one of the streets. As I turned again into Russel-street it appeared to me as if Mr. Maskall and the people with him had made a sudden halt just at the instant. It was in Russel-street, on the left-hand side of the way. A person who seemed to hold a paper in his hand, or something that appeared to me like a paper, said Why leave out Peterborough and Bristol?
To whom was this addressed? - It appeared to me to be addressed to Mr. Maskall and the person who was with him in arm-hold.
Was any answer given, and by whom? - The answer was returned by Mr. Maskall. As near as I can tell the answer was, They are not left out, I have not scratched them out, but don't stay long in Devonshire, but go to the Bank, there is a million of money to pay you for your pains, and at the Excise-office there are forty thousand pounds not paid in.
After these expressions did you observe any other different persons address themselves to Mr. Maskall? - No. I passed them close.
Did you in your way home or in the course of the evening afterwards see any other persons address themselves to Mr. Maskall, or Mr. Maskall address himself to any of them? - No, after that I saw no more of Mr. Maskall.
What became of you? - I made an observation upon his conduct and I went home.
Were you near enough to Mr. Maskall to be sure that he was the person who gave the answer you have just now mentioned? - I am certain; I was very close at the time. I turned close round the corner; the people were then against a bulk at the corner of the street, and he stood nearer to the channel.
Were there many other persons about him? - Three or four that he went with; they appeared to be the same persons whom I saw him go with towards Russel-street.
Were there any other indifferent persons
You live at No. 1, in Weymouth-street? - Yes.
Whereabouts is that? - It comes into Portland-road.
Your wife I think you say was upon a visit in Devonshire-square? - At her father-in-law's.
Was it the way then to go through Bloomsbury-square? - I could go no other way from where I was spending the evening that I know, unless I had gone across the fields which would not be safe and prudent.
How happened it that your wife should be upon a visit to her father and mother's without you? - I have expected for seven or eight months past to be called upon full pay, and consequently when I came to town I did not take a house; she has always when I have been in town been at her father's.
Then because you soon expect to be called upon full pay you do not take a house, but your wife goes and lives with her father and mother, and you take lodgings? - Yes.
What is the meaning of that? - It is a great deal more convenient to be with a parent who loves her than at a lodging.
So when you went to the house, from the affection you bear your father and mother you never knocked at the door to see if they were safe, but immediately left them? - Finding there was no light in the house I was pleased that they were abed, and I thought it would be cruel to alarm them.
Was there no other reason for your not entering that door? - No, for I sat up next night in that house.
Are you at liberty to enter that house when the father is at home? - I have not visited in that house for these nine years, though Mr. and Mrs. Morris have been frequently in the country with me for three or four days together.
Does not your wife live entirely with them and separate from you from the ill usage she has received at your hands? - So far from it that my wife is often with me, lies with me, and lives with me, and no man ever loved a woman better than I do her. I married her for love, and I love her still dearly.
At half after one you say you passed by? - I believe it might be thereabouts.
Mr. Maskall was then just before Lord Mansfield's door, in Russel-street? - I do not know the name of the street which Lord Mansfield's door comes into; he was opposite that door which comes out into the street.
There was I understand a fire just before the door? - Yes, there were three or four fires.
Were there no soldiers there at that time? - I observed two sets of soldiers. There were some soldiers on the pavement on the same side with Lord Mansfield's house in the square. The soldiers that I saw come as a guard to disperse the mob came from Russel-street.
I am asking whether there were not a number of soldiers that were in a circle before the house when you came there at half after one? - I did not see them. I saw the soldiers drawn up upon the pavement, but I did not see any when I first went there.
Was it on the pavement immediately before the door? - In the square on the side of Lord Mansfield's house.
Then the soldiers were in a line upon the pavement down the square, did they cross the street to the Duke of Bedford's wall? - No, I did not see them cross to the Duke of Bedford's wall.
How were the soldiers situated when you came back from Devonshire-street? - I did not see the soldiers then, I saw the soldiers as I came from Russel-street, when I first crossed Bloomsbury-square upon the pavement next Lord Mansfield's; I mean the pavement in the square. In no other position did I see soldiers, or take notice of them, but there might be.
At that time you say Mr. Maskall had no cockade in his hat? - I did not say that; I say I did not perceive any.
Did you speak to Mr. Maskall at that time? - I did not; I did not speak to him the whole night.
When you returned there you was so lucky as to see Mr. Maskall again? - I did.
Court. If I took you right, when you first saw the prisoner, he was on the opposite side of the street facing Lord Mansfield's? - He was.
And when you saw him again, upon your return, you then saw him near the Duke of Bedford's wall, was it near to Russel-street or the gate? - Between Russel-street and the gate.
Counsel for the Prisoner. At that time that you saw him between the Duke of Bedford's gate and Russel-street, were there a line of soldiers then between the mob and you and him? - I did not perceive any line of soldiers then on that side next to the house; there were soldiers upon the pavement on the other side.
Was not the pavement rather too close to the house for them to stand there; the house was on fire then? - No; the house was not on fire.
Were the fires within or outside the soldiers? - There were fires along Russel-street up to the square, there were four or five of them; I took no notice of the position of the soldiers further than I have mentioned, there were four or five fires that way from the street along the square, looking towards Southampton-row.
You are very particular as to the situation of the persons, one to your left hand, and the other to your right? - It made a very great impression upon me.
What did? - Every thing I saw that night; when I went the next day to Devonshire-street, I found my wife so extremely ill, in consequence of a fire which had happened that night; that I was obliged to sit up with her all night; her father was gone to the Excise-office, her mother was gone into the country; I then mentioned Maskall's name, and said I thought his behaviour very wicked.
And you mentioned all the circumstances that it was necessary to tell to day? - Not necessary to tell to day, for I mentioned it the next day and on the Thursday publickly in three different places.
Do you happen to know the person who said, Maskall you are always in sedition? - Yes.
What is his name? - Molloy.
Did not you hesitate a little in that answer? - No; I have declared it publickly before.
Molloy is a friend of your's, is he not? - Only a very slight acquaintance, he spends the evening in the same house that I often do.
Was he with you before, or only just at that critical minute? - I had desired him to go with me from Sparrow's, left there should be any danger to my family.
He set out with you from the place where you spent your evening, to Devonshire-street? - Yes.
You both set out together, and you both returned together; what was the reason he gave for saying Maskall was always in fedition? - He gave me a reason why he said so.
Molloy returned with you from Devonshire-street? - He did.
He came up directly with you to the place where Mr. Maskall stood? - I will not take upon me to say he came up directly with me, because in a crowd people are often a little separated; he came up and stood close to me, and was so when he said to Maskall, you are always in fedition.
Upon which Mr. Maskall said, the man in the black cockade is a spy? - Yes.
He meant to compliment you upon that occasion? - I believe so.
I think you say you are a surgeon in the army? - An apothecary.
Do other apothecaries in the army wear cockades? - There is a standing order of the army, in order to distinguish the gentlemen upon the staff, and the surgeons in the regiment, by Prince Ferdinand, the Marquis of Granby, and General Conway , that they should be distinguished by a separate uniform.
How long have you received half pay? - Seventeen years.
Have you constantly received it for seventeen years? - I have sworn to it constantly, I swore to it last Monday, before Justice
For seventeen years you have received this half pay? - I perceive your quibble, it is by way of exposing my character. I have not received the whole of it, but only a part of it; for in order to discharge some debts that I owed, the regiment which I was surgeon to, I parted with part of it.
I do not mean to quibble, but it is my duty to sift your character: Have not you been a bankrupt within these few years? - Not a few years, it is sixteen years ago.
And you have received your half-pay ever since, instead of your creditors? - My creditors have nothing to do with it, as I understood.
You have been an insolvent debtor since that time? - The government, some years ago, held out to officers an act of parliament, that they would be relieved from any sums of money that they had taken up upon usurious contracts upon their pay; a great number of officers embraced that opportunity, and exposed their names and characters, without any effect, for it had no effect in the Pay-office.
You have shown sagacity enough in the course of this business this morning to understand the question I have put to you; Have you been in jail within these last sixteen years? - No; I never was in jail.
Have you or not been cleared under an insolvent debtors act? - Under that clause of the act for the benefit of officers I was, but I never was arrested, or had any demand made against me for the monies.
Have you ever had your certificate as a bankrupt? - I had it immediately.
Have not you within these three or four years assigned over your effects for the benefit of your creditors? - Yes, upon leaving Kingston, I did.
These effects were assigned over by a bill of sale, I believe. - They were.
How long was it that you was near to Mr. Maskall, within his sight, upon your returning from Devonshire-street with Molloy till the time you left him, when the Guards came up? - I had not been very long there before these words passed, that I was a spy.
How long was it? - I suppose I had been in that circle four or five minutes when I made the observation, that it was a pity the books should be burnt.
Then, in four or five minutes after you had been there, he went down to Great Russel-street? - I stopped some time; when I returned, I did not see him in the place where I first saw him; but in going on farther, I saw him; I stood by him, and there happened the conversation I mentioned.
You saw him when the Guards came up? - Yes, and I saw him before the Guards came up.
You had omitted seeing him some little time? - I was turned during the time, I was shoved about by the mob, but just as I got loose from them, the guard came up, and I then got behind him.
You said, I think, that you saw him opposite Bedford wall? - Yes, near the spot where I had left him.
Then you continued to see him near Bedford wall when you returned, till the time he walked towards Great Russel-street? - Yes.
At that time he was walking with a gentleman under his arm? - He had hold of a gentleman or a gentleman had hold of his arm.
What kind of a man was that, a fat or a lean man? - I did not take particular notice, he seemed a good-looking man.
So these two gentleman were walking away down Russel-street? - With three or four other persons.
What sort of persons? - They did not appear very reputable persons.
So you took the opportunity of walking after them? - It was time for me to go home.
Just at the time Mr. Maskall did? - He had gone two or three minutes before.
You do not mean that you dogged him? - I did not mean to dogge him.
And they could see you too, I suppose? - I do not doubt it.
Was Molloy with you at that time? - He was.
Did you not think it rather imprudent in Mr. Maskall to hold this treasonable and diabolical conversation, when they saw you whom Mr. Maskall had before said was a spy?
Counsel for the Crown. He did not say they saw him.
Counsel for the Prisoner. Yes, he did say so.
One of the Jury. I do not understand him so.
Counsel for the Prisoner. What did you say? - I said they might have seen me. I turned round the corner as I said before and they seemed to have made a sudden halt.
If four or five people were in company and they had made a sudden halt in all probability they would have looked round so as to have seen you, you was near enough to hear their conversation and to see Mr. Maskall's face, and therefore it was possible he might have seen you? - It was.
Was it not more, was it not probable? - I think not, while he was talking to them.
So Mr. Maskall, who before had told the mob that you was a spy, was so imprudent as to hold this conversation while you was at his elbow? - I believe they made that sudden halt not supposing that I was near them. When I turned up the street they were not there; I did not take notice of them.
So there were Mr. Maskall and the gentleman who was with him, and three or four persons who did not look quite so creditable, and Molloy and yourself? - There were.
There was no mob at that time in the street? - I saw no mob in the street.
I would not misunderstand nor mistake what you said, you said some time ago, when asked who was in the street, that no indifferent person was in the street besides yourself? - I did not say that; the question asked from my Lord, was, whether there was any indifferent person in the street. By indifferent person I comprehend my Lord meant any indifferent person with him; when it was asked, any person like myself. I said yes.
Court. I meant persons whom the prisoner might be cautious of speaking before? - I observed there was only that one person with me whom I mentioned before.
Court. That was Molloy? - Yes.
Counsel for the Prisoner. What time was this? - I was abed a little after three o'clock.
How do I know when you go to bed. I am asking you at what time this conversation in Russel-street was held? - I suppose I was twenty minutes going home and getting to bed.
Then it was about half after two? - I suppose so or rather near three.
I am desired to ask you whether you are not now an insolvent? No, I am not.
Court. Did you give any account of burning the books when you was examined before the magistrate? - I think I did. I think I mentioned every circumstance then as I have now mentioned them; and I declared I had no view whatever of any reward. I declared the whole on Thursday to a friend of mine, who will appear. I declared it likewise to some gentlemen at the coffee-house. I likewise declared it afterwards at Mr. Sparrow's. And when Mr. Maskall and his counsel were admitted before Justice Wright, I desired they might cross examine me, and take any notes they pleased. I believe I see the gentleman in court who took some memorandums.
Court. As to the reward that is out of the case, for he discovered it next day? - I did, but I declare to God and this court I never had any idea of any malicious intention against Mr. Maskall.
It does not appear upon the examination, as returned by the justice, that any thing is said about the books having done no harm.
Whether you was at Lord Mansfield's house upon Tuesday the 6th of June at the time of the riot? - I was.
Do you know the prisoner? - I do. I knew him by sight before.
Be so good as to tell your story in your own manner? - At about a quarter
Where was you? - In my lord's house. They then began to break the windows in the dining parlour of the house. Lady Mansfield and the ladies came down stairs. I conducted Lady Mansfield to Lincoln-Inn-Fields, and left her in a house there. I instantly returned, knowing there was a detachment of the Guards in the square in order to make them act and save the house. I found the officer at the head of his detachment in the square at his lordship's house. I applied to him to enter the house with his men; he told me that the justices of the peace had all run away, and that he would not and could not act without the civil magistrate. I had some warm words with him, pretty high, but he insisted upon not acting without the civil magistrate. The mob heard me talking in this manner, they seised me and dragged me towards the fire; there were two or three fires then near Lord Mansfield's house, and they threatened to throw me on the fire; one of the people behind called out to me Maskall will protect you, call to him; there he is very active.
Counsel for the Prisoner. You know very well that you are not to give an account, particularly in the case where a man's life is at stake, which is not evidence.
I looked for him. Some gentlemen interfered and rescued me from the hands of the mob; at that time I looked and saw the prisoner at a good distance from me, beyond all the fires; they happened at that time to be bringing out Lord Mansfield's gowns and wigs, when the prisoner with others, upon these things being thrown into the fire, huzza'd and cried out No Popery! He had a blue cockade in his hat. I afterwards went to two or three streets in the neighbourhood where I was told any justices of the peace lived, which might take me up near half an hour, and carried it as near as I can guess to a quarter or half an hour after one when I returned. I found no justice at home any where. I returned again and they had then got into the library; there were five or six coming out at a time, with papers and parchments and books in their hands; at that time I saw the prisoner upon the upper step of Lord Mansfield's house.
Where was you? - In the square. I tried to make a dash to get round the fires, as I could not go between them, and to get upon the top of the stairs, in order to expostulate with them once more about the papers and the books.
I do not recollect that you mentioned any expostulation with them before? - I did speak to several of them before.
Not to the prisoner? - Not to him; I meant to expostulate with the prisoner at that time.
Counsel for the Prisoner. You said with them? - With him I mean.
Court. You said expostulate with them once more? - I did at first, upon seeing him, mean to call out to him to protect me; three or four of them, who were pretty well dressed men, and whose faces I should know, if I was to see them again, laid hold of me, and advised me not to go a step farther, for otherwise I should be thrown inuo the fire or into the area, for they had marked me and were determined to do it. I then thought it more prudent to leave them, and I never saw the prisoner after that to my recollection. I went down to the Secretary of State's office to know whether there existed any civil magistrate; and I came back again about a little before three, and I then looked round for the prisoner but I did not see any thing of him.
You say you saw the prisoner upon Lord Mansfield's steps? - I did.
Did you either hear him say any thing or see him do any thing? - I did look, and I cannot, in my conscience, swear that I saw any thing in his hand; but there was an activity about him; they were passing him with papers and books in abundance.
I ask you rather for form's sake than any thing else, to describe to my lord and the jury the situation in which this house was left by the mob? - I was there all the night, excepting those times I mentioned, when I went away; I left it at six o'clock in the morning, when the roof fell in.
In fact, the house was totally demolished, except the bare walls? - Yes.
Was the wainscoting demolished? - Yes, every thing. I went into the house a quarter after three o'clock, then there were fires in three or four of the apartments.
When you came back, they seemed, you say, to be another mob? - Yes.
What time was it when you returned from conducting Lady Mansfield to Lincoln's-Inn-Fields? - I think about half an hour; I walked with her down, and made all the haste I could back.
It was after twelve o'clock when you conducted her ladyship out of the house? - Yes, a quarter after twelve.
When was it that the windows of the parlour were broke, what time was that? - I think that might be about a quarter after twelve o'clock before I left the house.
What time was it that you had the conversation with the officer of the Guards? - Immediately upon my return.
How long might that conversation last? - A few minutes.
How long had you been kept by the mob when you was seised and dragged in the manner you have described? - Two or three minutes, probably; they had time to drag me about, and tear my coat off my back.
Can you describe what time that was when the person called out, there is Maskall, call to him for assistance? - About three quarters after twelve o'clock.
It was that when you returned? - It might be a few minutes more.
As nearly as you can, what time was it that you heard that man call out to you to call to Maskall to protect you? - Before one o'clock.
At that time he was at a considerable distance from you? - Such as the distance of three or four fires.
What distance might that be? - The breadth of a house.
That is very indeterminate? - Seven or eight yards.
After this you was rescued? - I was.
Then you went in search of magistrates in order to protect the house? - I did.
How long might you be absent upon that? - Half an hour.
Then this brings you to a quarter after one o'clock, or more? - A quarter or near half an hour after one o'clock when I returned.
When you returned, was that the first time you took notice of Mr. Maskall's being upon the steps. - It was.
About half after one o'clock? - Yes.
Did you see any body else upon the steps besides Maskall? - Several with blue cockades.
Was there any body that you knew? - No, not one.
You say you had seen Maskall before? - Yes, I have seen him many times; I knew him by sight.
Have you ever been in company with him? - Never; I can tell you how I know him by sight; I lived in his neighbourhood six or seven years; I have a house in Poland-street; he lives not a great distance from that; I used to pass his door five or six times in a week, and I have seen him in his shop frequently.
You have however often seen him before? - A hundred times.
How came you then to go to the prison to see Mr. Maskall, before you went before the grand jury? - I had an order to some other people, and therefore I went in.
Who did you carry with you? - I did did not carry any body.
You had an order to carry other people? - My lords servants, who went without me; I happened to be out of town, and they went without me.
Why did you go? - To satisfy myself.
Then you was not satisfied before? - I was satisfied before perfectly.
You said you went there to satisfy yourself;
You was not satisfied before you went down? - I was perfectly satisfied.
Why did you go then; what was the view with which you went? - That is a question I do not see any necessity for answering.
You can have no objection to answer why you went there? - I had no kind of view in going there, I had an order to carry my lord's servants, and they went with some other order.
Then you went without those people, what was your motive for going there? - It being in the night, I might have occasion to go to satisfy myself that it was the man.
Then you went to be satisfied, not being satisfied before? - I was perfectly satisfied before. I had not seen him for some years, and there might perhaps be doubts.
Had you any doubts? - In my conscience I cannot say I had a doubt.
Why might there be doubts if you had none? - Yes, in the night and in a tumult of that sort it is very reasonable to suppose so.
And you went down there to be satisfied? - I went there to satisfy myself.
I wish to know whether you was an object of an indictment for an assault some time ago?
Counsel for the crown. Are we come here to try any indictment for an assault.
Court. No I was going to stop the counsel for the prisoner, if he had not stopped himself when he was enquiring the private situation of the last witness with his wife.
Counsel for the Prisoner. My Lord, I meant to ask whether Sir Thomas Mills had not been indicted for an assault, that he had been acquitted, and whether he had not made an affidavit which is the subject of an indictment.
Court. A witness must be in a dreadful situation if you can examine into a private fact relative to him, which he knowing nothing of before cannot disprove. You may impeach any man's character by calling witnesses to his general character, but you cannot enquire into particular facts.
Counsel for the prisoner. When was it you first made your evidence known? - Frequently to my private friends.
When was it you first mentioned this? - The very day after: I did not go to bed that night.
Did you go before any magistrate? - No, I did not choose that; it was with difficulty I was brought here. I was pressed. I did not make up my mind about coming here till very lately.
Not till you went before the grand jury? - Not till I went before the grand jury.
That was the day you went to see Mr. Maskall? - I am not perfectly sure of that.
Counsel for the Crown. You stated that you had an order to go to the prison where the prisoner was confined, for the purpose of seeing him? - Yes.
Was it in consequence of that order or request that you went? - I asked for the order of admission for Lord Mansfield's servants. It was to admit the bearer or some such thing.
Counsel for the Prisoner. Were any of Lord Mansfield's servants present during the time you say you saw Mr. Maskall upon the steps? - No, not with me, I believe. But the first time I saw him there were, and there were some about me at the time the mob had hold of me.
At the time you say you saw Mr. Maskall on the steps were they near you? - I do not recollect that they were.
When were they with you before? - I spoke to them frequently in the course of the evening.
You never saw any of Lord Mansfield's servants after that? - Yes, I saw them till six in the morning, in the square and about.
Did you see them any ways near you at the time you describe to have seen Mr. Maskall; - I do not recollect that.
Counsel for the Crown. Whether you have not related and particularly to Mr. Chamberlayne this story, and the recollection
Counsel for the Prisoner. The witnesses's conversation with Mr. Chamberlayne is not evidence.
Counsel for the Crown. Was you or not desired by any body to go to the prison to see the prisoner? - I am not sure whether Mr. Chamberlayne desired me to go; I think he did.
Did he or not give you any note? - He gave me a note.
And in consequence of that, after you had told him your story, did you go to see the prisoner? - I did.
Court. You mentioned that they were bringing out Lord Mansfield's gown and wig when the prisoner, with others, huzza'd, and cried out No Popery? - Yes.
Whereabouts was the prisoner then standing? - I was at the corner of the square, at the corner of Lord Mansfield's house; the prisoner was about eight or nine yards from me towards Southampton Buildings.
How far from the house? - Four or five yards in the front of the house, and seven or eight yards distance from me.
You are Lord Mansfield's porter? - I am.
Do you remember being in the house when the mob came there? - Yes.
About what time did they come? - As far as I can recollect between twelve and one.
Did any of them get into the house? - They did.
By what means? - They first broke the windows. Where they broke them I chained up the door to keep them out as long as I could; they forced the door open with iron bars and came in that way.
When they got into the house what did they do? - They began throwing out the furniture.
Did they do any thing to the house? - After the furniture was thrown out, I saw them tear down the window-shutters.
When did you quit the house? - I believe between four and five o'clock.
During the time you was there, besides the furniture being thrown out was any thing else done? - Some of the iron rails were pulled up.
Was any thing done to the inside of the house, the wainscoting and so on? - I saw only the shutters pulled down. I did not take any particular notice afterwards. The door was split down.
What became of the door-posts? - I did not take any particular notice about the door-posts. The door was taken down.
What condition was the house in in the morning? - Totally burnt.
Whether you happened to be upon the steps at any part of the time? - I was some part of the time.
Did you see Mr. Maskall there? - No, I did not; I never saw him till I saw him at the office in Bow-street.
What time was you upon the steps? - I think between one and two.
And you saw nothing of Mr. Maskall? - No.
Counsel for the Crown. Was this before they broke into the house? - It was after they broke into the house.
Was there any body upon the steps at that time but yourself? I saw Mr. Loton there.
Did you see any people there whom you did not know? - There were a great many of the mob about the door then.
But upon the steps? - Yes; several of them were talking to Mr. Loton.
Counsel for the Prisoner. I suppose you were backwards and forwards pretty often in the night? - Yes, to get out things. I did not take any particular notice of any body.
You saw the fires? - I did.
You saw the people who were standing about the fires? - Yes; but not to know any of them.
What time might it be before they began to burn the house? - I think it was about four o'clock.
Counsel for the Crown. You was upon the steps you say? - I was.
You are not very correct as to the time? - Yes.
When you was upon the steps Mr. Loton was there? - Yes. I remember his being upon the steps talking to the mob who were about the house.
Did you observe any thing else particular at the time you was upon the steps? - It was in such a confusion that I cannot recollect.
Counsel for the Prisoner. I think you said you believed it was between one and two? - It might be so, but I will not be certain.
Court. Is not Molloy here?
Counsel for the Crown. I believe he is.
Counsel for the Prisoner. His name is upon the back of the indictment.
Court to the Counsel for the Crown. Do not you mean to examine Molloy.
Counsel for the Crown. We do not mean to examine him; he is here I understand if they please to examine him.
Counsel for the Prisoner. I beg it may be known he is not subpoenaed by us.
Court. Mr. Maskall, the counsel for the prosecution have finished their case, and examined all the witnesses they propose to examine, have you any thing that you choose to say for yourself, or any witnesses which you choose to have called and examined on your part.
Prisoner. Yes, my Lord, I have something to say for myself, and some witnesses to call.
My Lord, and Gentlemen of the Jury, Permit me to implore your patient and serious attention, while I defend myself against a charge, which I am called upon to defend with my life. The humanity of the law presumes every man to be innocent, and the good sense of the jury will suppose there must be some adequate inducement for the commission of a crime, when you consider that my profession supports me in affluence, and that my character has been irreproachable, I trust you will expect the clearest and most decisive testimony in support of so atrocious and so incredible a charge, as having incited and abetted the mob in the destruction of Lord Mansfield's property. I defy my bitterest enemy, I call upon the most profligate of my accusers to assign a reason for such conduct. Will you then, my lord, and gentlemen of the jury, suppose that I, who have lived hitherto neither accused nor suspected of any criminal or even dishonest action, should associate with boys, pickpockets, and the lowest dregs of the people, and in the face of my neighbours and acquaintance, in a place where I am particularly and almost universally known, that I should, without any possible motive, be guilty of so horrid a crime, although not one of these neighbours appear against me: on the contrary I shall produce many of them who are housekeepers, and persons of good credit whose testimony will flatly contradict the evidence given by the witnesses for the prosecution. It is extraordinary that from the 7th to the 17th of June Mr. Ingram should have concealed my supposed guilt, which it was so much his interest to have discovered; and that ten days should have elapsed before he gave his information. God forbid that I should insinuate that the reward of fifty pounds could have any influence on the evidence of any honest man, however poor, however distressed; but when infamy is united with poverty, such a sum carries with it irresistable temptation. It is to me a painful task to expose the characters of these witnesses, though they have been unfeeling enough to attack, upon false grounds, not only my character but my life. In justice therefore to my other witnesses, and to relieve you from any difficulty in determining to whom you should give credit, I ought, and doubt not to be able, u od evidence, to prove that the witnesses the prosecution are worth of no credit. I will shew you by the most undeniable testimony, that Ingram has been a bankrupt, that he has been discharged by an act of insolvency, that he is now insolvent, and that his word and his conduct are as exceptionable as his credit. It is very singular that Molloy, who was with Ingram the whole time, is not called by the prosecutors as a witness against me, though If evidence would be so material in the support of Mr. Ingram, especially as he attended at the justice's when the information was laid against me; and at my examination, besides his name being on the back of the indictment.
Court. I am sorry, in the situation you stand in, to interrupt you; it is indeed very painful to me, but as what you offer cannot be admitted in evidence it is my duty not to permit you state it. I am very sorry to be obliged to interrupt you,
Prisoner. I, with the greatest submission, hear and attend to what your lordship is pleased to give me in instruction; but when my life is at stake, and I have now an affidavit of that gentleman's in my pocket contradicted by five positive witnesses, three of whom are now attending, I trust your lordship will permit that to be given in evidence.
Court. I am sure you would not, upon recollection, wish your acquittal should be attended with the admission of improper evidence.
Prisoner. Reflect for a moment on the improbability of the charge; recollect the character of the persons whose interest it is to prove it, and consider the degree of solly imputed to me by it, and then let me ask you whether in your consciences you believe me guilty? I speak with boldness, for I am armed with innocence. I dare therefore speak the language of truth. Happily for me providentially I may say, for the Almighty still protects the innocent, I can produce my ervants, and my neighbours, to prove that I was in my own house in Oxford-street, when I first heard of the fire, with my night-cap and slippers on; that I expressed much concern at it; that it was near one o'clock when I left my house; that in coming into Bloomsbary square, for I admit I was there, I met with two acquaintances with, or near, whom I stood about an hour close to the Duke of Bedford's gate. I continued a quiet and peaceable spectator during all the time I staid there; and so far from stimularing the mob, I declare solemnly, I frequently lamented the mischief they were doing; this I can prove by several housekeepers and other persons of credit, who, thank God, accidentally happened to be there, and saw me at different periods till I returned home. I shall likewise call other witnesses of equal credit, who know me, to prove that they, from their situation near Lord Mansfield's house, and the notice they took of the rioters, must have observed me if that, which is imputed to me, had been true; but that on the contrary they did not even see me, it was indeed impossible they should; for I was at a distance from the house, and from every person who was in the least concerned in the outrages committing there. On my return home, between two and three o'clock, my servants will testify I spoke of the mob with horrour, and of the mischief they had done with unfeigned concern. When you have heard all this evidence I am confident you will not believe that I am guilty of this horrid offence; you will not withhold your credit to the great number of witnesses, all of unblemished characters and most of them housekeepers living in the neighbourhood, and who can have no other interest in the event of this business than the heart felt satisfaction of protecting innocence from that punishment which guilt alone deserves, and you will not, in preference to them, implicitly believe witnesses whose characters are exceedingly suspicious, and whose testimony is interested. Forgive me, my lord, and gentleman, if I detain you for a moment longer, but my anxiety, my lord, to vindidicate my injured reputation induces me to trouble you with some witnesses who will tell you who and what I am, who have known me for many years, who have honoured me with their friendship, and who, I trust, will declare I have not disgraced that friendship.
For the Prisoner.
- EVANS sworn.
You are a servant, I believe, of Mr. Maskall? - Yes.
Do you remember the evening of the fire at Lord Mansfield's, the 6th of June? - Yes.
Was your master at home that evening? - He was till half past twelve o'clock.
At that time how was he dressed, as a man going out or going to bed? - I had fetched my master's slippers and night-cap for him to go to bed.
How happened it he did not go to bed? - I went into the street, enquiring where those fires were? they told me at Lord Mansfield's. I ran in and told my master that Lord Mansfield's house was on fire.
Where does your master live? - In Oxford-street, No. 57.
What part of Oxford-street is it? - Two doors from Berner's-street.
What time will it take to walk from your master's to Bloomsbury-square; did you ever happen to walk that way? - No, therefore I cannot say; but I imagine my master could not be above twenty minutes. I told my master I heard Lord Mansfield's house was on fire; his answer was God forbid! He ran out into the street and desired me to fetch him his great coat, for, he said, he had an acquaintance in Russel-street, and he would see if all was safe.
Was any one in the house at the time this conversation passed between you and your master? - No; they were all at the door.
Were any of your neighbours in the street at that time, that you knew, who spoke to your master? - Yes.
Who were they? - Mrs. Sawyer was at her door; she lives next door to my master.
Did you see Mrs. Simpson and Mrs. Hough and her daughter? - Yes; they came up to me soon after.
Did they pass, or converse with your master before they came up to you? - They told me they did.
At that time was your master gone? - He was.
At what time did your master leave his house? - As near as I can guess, about half past twelve o'clock.
Can you tell when he returned again to his house? - At half past two; the watch were going half past two as I stood upon the stairs with a candle to light my master to bed.
Were the journeyman and porter at home when he came home? - They were just gone to bed; but the porter got out of bed to open the door, and he let my master in.
Did your master tell you when he came home whether there had been a fire at Lord Mansfield's, or what he had seen? - I asked my master? he said yes it was the horridest sight he had ever seen in his life, and the most awefullest thing he ever met with, and it chilled his blood in him.
You are a servant maid? - Yes.
He went out in a great hurry? - Yes.
Had he his slippers on? - No. He was unbuckling his shoes; he buckled them again and went out immediately.
Did he take up any bat that was in the way? - He sent me for his great coat and his hat.
The hat had no cockade in it? - I saw none.
It had no cockade in it when it came home? - I believe he left it upon the counter when he came in, I did not see it.
He was not called up again that night, was he? - He was about five o'clock, as near as I can guess.
Did he tell you what they had done at Lord Mansfield's that shocked him so much? - He said they had burnt very fine furniture.
What trade are you? - A coachmaker.
Where do you live? - In Dean-street, Oxford-road.
Do you remember seeing any thing of Mr. Maskall on the Tuesday when the fire happened at Lord Mansfield's? - Yes, I do.
What passed between you and Mr. Maskall at that time? - When I went to the fire it might be about half after one; I stopped there about ten minutes.
Where did you first see Mr. Maskall? - At about twelve at night at his own house; he came out and said Wood, where do you think the fire is? I said, Sir, some say it is at Lord Mansfield's, and some say it is at a school. Said he, Evans get me my great coat and I will go and see where it is. He went directly; in about a quarter of an hour after, or it might be more, his shopman and I went there. When we came to Russel-street, I saw no disturbance in the least. When I came back to Great Russel-street, I saw a fire in the square. There was a fire at a school, I think it is in Little Russel-street.
Whereabouts in Little Russel-street? - Upon the right hand of Great Russel-street, going from Tottenham Court-road into the square. Coming into Great Russel-street I saw a fire in the square. I said to Mr. Nichols let us go and see whether this fire is at Lord Mansfield's. We went into the square. I went within the iron rails, the gate was open, and I walked there; I might stop there about a quarter of an hour; I did not like to stay any longer for fear any lives might be lost. Coming home again, I walked by the Duke of Bedford's dead wall; and just by the gate I saw Mr. Maskall talking with a gentleman and lady there.
What time was this? - It might be a quarter before two.
Where was it that Mr. Maskall was standing when you saw him? - There is a gate in the centre of the dead wall at the Duke of Bedford's, it might be about half way from that dead wall, or not so much, to Lord Mansfield's.
How long might you observe him in that situation? - I was with him about a quarter of an hour; I had my hand upon his shoulder while I was conversing with him.
And that, I think, you said was about a quarter before two? - It might be about two when I left him.
What was the behaviour and conduct of Mr. Maskall during all the time you was there? - Standing very quietly, as far as I saw; all his discourse was to this lady and gentleman.
Did you see him do any thing, any one act whatever, to encourage the mob? - No; very far from any such thing. I know Mr. Maskall extremely well.
Did you see him do any thing whatever to encourage them? - Not in the least.
If Mr. Maskall had done any thing to encourage the mob should you have seen him? - Undoubtedly I should have taken notice of such a thing, if I had been by.
If any persons with flags had come up to him should you have seen it? - Undoubtedly.
If any person had come up to take directions from him, for any part of their conduct, or what they were to do, should not you have seen it? - I should.
Then no such thing passed, did it? - No such thing
Did any thing drop from Mr. Maskall upon the occasion? - Nothing that I heard; I cannot pretend to say what the discourse was between this gentleman and lady and him; but when I came home he said, how do you Wood? that was all that passed. I was talking to the shopman about the disturbance that had happened.
When you went away you left him there? - Yes. The watch was going past two when I got home.
Where do you live? - In Queen-street, Bloomsbury.
What are you? - A cheesemonger.
Did you happen to be in Bloomsbury-square the night of the fire at Lord Mansfield's? - Yes.
In what part of the square was you? - About five yards from the Duchess of Bedford's gate.
Was you there at one o'clock? - I believe I was, or a little after; it could not be
How long did you stay there? - I was at my own house at ten minutes past two exactly.
From the time you came there to the time you went away from the square did you continue in that place? - Within a few yards of it.
Did you see Mr. Maskall there? - Yes, I did; about five minutes after I came there.
How near did Mr. Maskall stand to you? - When I first saw him he was standing close behind me.
What was his behaviour at that time? - Very quiet and very still.
Are you acquainted with Mr. Maskall? - I am through business.
You know his person perfectly well? - I do.
How long did you happen to keep your eye upon Mr. Maskall? - During the time I was there, I cannot say that I was ever three or four minutes without having my eye on him; about two minutes before I went away I did not see Mr. Maskall; he told me he was going home.
Do I understand you to say that during the whole time that you yourself staid, which was from very soon after one till near two or quite two o'clock, you had not Mr. Maskall out of your sight for above two or three minutes at a time? - No; I cannot think it was more, for whenever I looked I saw him.
And what was his behaviour? - Very quiet; as quiet as any spectator.
If he had behaved during any part of that time unlike a quiet innoffensive spectator must you have seen it? - I must.
Did you see any person during that time come up to him with any blue flag, or a flag of any kind? - No; I saw no flag.
Did you see Mr. Maskall speak to any persons that were active in the mob? - I did not.
Did you see any that were active in the mob address themselves to him? - No; I did not.
Did you see Mr. Maskall speak to any of the other spectators? - Yes. I saw him speak to different people at different times, but I was not near enough to over hear the conversation.
But to none you heard him speak that were at all in the activity of the mob? - No; only to quiet spect ators.
Did he speak to you? - He did.
Who was with you? - My wife.
Did he speak to both of you? - He did.
Where might the soldiers be at that time? - I cannot be particular to a few yards, but they were by the sides of the fires that were lighted.
Were the soldiers between the mob and you? - I was outside of the spectators.
What distance might Mr. Maskall be from you at the time you are now speaking of? - I suppose not more than five or six yards.
And you saw the whole tenor of his behaviour during the time he was at the Duke of Bedford's gate? - I did.
At what time did you first speak to him? - It could not be more than a quarter past one. I said what shocking work this is; in about half a minute something was thrown out at the window. Mr. Maskall held up his hands and said, Good God! how shocking it is to see all this fine furniture destroyed.
Were they creditable innoffensive looking people that you saw him speak to? - They were.
Then upon the whole was the tenor of Mr. Maskall's behaviour during all that time that you saw him, just the same as your own, your wife's, and every other person you saw there that was inoffensive? - It was.
What time was it that Mr. Maskall told you he was going home? - I think it was about two o'clock.
You think you must have seen if there was any thing improper in Mr. Maskall's conduct during that time? - I think I must if any thing had happened like it.
Did you go there out of curiosity? - We heard there was a fire near our house, we could not go to bed we were so frightened, therefore I went to see where it was.
Did any body go with you, besides Mrs. Cooper? - No.
The first place where you saw Mr. Maskall was near the front gate of the Duchess of Bedford's? - Yes.
Nearer to the gate or Lord Mansfield's? - Nearer to Lord Mansfield's.
You turned yourself towards Lord Mansfield's house? - Yes.
And kept fixing your attention to what passed there? - Yes.
Mr. Maskall was, you said, behind you at first? - He was.
Did you converse with any body besides Mr. Maskall? - No.
Was there any other person that you knew there that you recollect? - Not any.
Did he keep behind you all the time? - No; he was sometimes a few yards one way or the other, my eye was generally upon him; there were not above two or three minutes, to my knowledge, that I did not see him.
How many times did you speak to him while you staid there? - I do not recollect how many, but what passed there was lamenting the destruction of the furniture and such things as that.
Did you leave Mr. Maskall there? - He said he was going home about five minutes before we came away.
Will you swear that he went away before you? - He went past us and turned up, as if going to Great Russel-street; when he came by he said, I think, I will go home, and I never saw him any more; we staid about five minutes after that.
Which Great Russel-street do you mean? - He turned up towards the Museum.
That is the way to Oxford-street, to his own house? - It is.
Mr. Cooper is, I think, your husband? - He is.
Do you remember at what time in the night it was when your husband and you first went into Bloomsbury-square? - It was one o'clock or a little after, to the best of my knowledge.
Did you see Mr. Maskall there? - I saw him there.
Was it soon after you came into the square that you saw him there? - To the best of my knowledge, it was about five minutes after.
What part of the square was you in at the time you first saw Mr. Maskall? - By the Duchess of Bedford's wall near to the gate.
Was it between the gate and Lord Mansfield's house? - Yes.
Are you acquainted with Mr. Mascall? - I saw him once before that evening.
Mr. Maskall dealt with your husband? - Yes. Mr. Maskall once called at our shop and paid a bill.
Did you hold any conversation with Mr. Maskall? - I do not recollect any conversation; he asked us how we did? we asked him how he did; he joined with us in lamenting the loss of such fine furniture. The particular expressions I do not remember.
I only wish to know how long you and Mr. Cooper continued with Mr. Maskall, or how long you had him within your eye? - It was ten minutes past two when we got home.
How long do you think you were walking from Bloomsbury-square to your own house? - A few minutes.
Had Mr. Maskall left you before you proceeded to go home, or did you leave Mr. Maskall there? - Mr. Maskall left us.
How long had Mr. Maskall quitted you before you left the square? - About five minutes.
Then I suppose it might be about two o'clock when Mr. Maskall l eft you? - I believe it was.
Which way did he go when he left you? - He went up towards Great Russel-street leading to Tottenham Court-road.
Had Mr. Maskall been frequently in your eye, from the time he first asked you how you did, and lamented the fine furniture that had been destroyed, till he said he was going home and left you? - Frequently in my eye.
Was he very near you? - Sometimes very near.
Did you ever see him at any great distance? - No.
Was he ever at such a distance but you could observe him talking to people and who they were? - I observed his speaking to several of the spectators.
Were they people of credit in their appearance? - They were.
During the course of that hour did you see him speaking to any of the mob? - I did not.
Did you see any man with a blue flag come up towards him? - I did not.
Or any number of persons that had the appearance of the mob? - I did not.
Did you see him take any active part whatever
Did you hear him utter an expression that conveyed a wish that the mob should do the mischief they did? - Not in the least.
Was the whole of his conduct and conversation as quiet and peaceable as your own? - As much so.
If I understand you, very little conversation passed between your husband, you, and Mr. Maskall? - Very trifling.
You did not hear what the nature of his conversation was with other people? - I did not.
About what distance do you think he might be from you? - Three or four yards, perhaps; sometimes five or six.
There was nothing particular in Mr. Maskall's conduct that called for any particular attention from you to it? - Nothing at all.
I presume your attention was chiefly taken up by seeing the dreadful work that was going on? - Yes, I did attend to that.
Did you see so much of him as to be able to form a judgement of his conduct during the whole time? - I think I did.
Do you remember the fire that happened at Lord Mansfield's upon Tuesday the 6th of June? - I remember the goods being burnt.
You are an attorney? - I am with Messrs. Bateman and Barnard in Maiden-lane.
Did you happen to be present in Bloomsbury-square during any part of the business? - I was present.
Do you recollect about what time it was that you was present? - I believe about a quarter after one o'clock in the morning.
What part of the square was it you stood in? - Near to the gates of the Duke of Bedford; I stood between them and Lord Mansfield's house, but rather nearer to the gates than Lord Mansfield's house: after I had been there a little while, I spied Mr. Maskall very near to me, within a yard, I believe, of me; I had a gentleman with me; and I said, there is the pedantick Maskall, or there is Mr. Maskall.
How long did you observe Mr. Maskall there, or did you continue there? - I think I was there about an hour.
Did you make any observation of Mr. Maskall being near you, or where he was during the time of your being there? - I frequently, at various times, saw him about that spot where I first saw him; I did not speak to him, not having any acquaintance with him.
Did you frequently, or only now and then, make any observation of Mr. Maskall's behaviour and conduct? - I did observe him two or three times, but not to notice any thing particular about him. I did not observe that he was any way riotous, or concerned about the riot. I did not observe any body come to him, or he speak to any body, or go near to the fire or the rioters, and I well remember seeing him frequently during that hour.
That was his conduct during all that time? - During all the time I saw him. I have well recollected myself. I came here last Thursday entirely unsollicited to give evidence on his behalf, having heard he was taken up upon this business of Lord Mansfield's, and being conscious he had nothing more to do with it than I had as a same spectator.
Court. How long did you say you might be there? - About an hour.
Was you at this fire in Bloomsbury square? - I was.
At what time did you go there? - Before ever the doors were broke open, I believe it might be a little before one o'clock.
How long did you remain there? - I suppose till near five o'clock.
Do you know Mr. Maskall? - Very well.
What part of the square was you in? - I went up to the captain of the guard to get him to draw the soldiers round the house. I went into the house with Mr. Dowse, one of Lord Mansfield's officers. I saw people plundering and pulling things to pieces. I went out again, and saw people pulling thing about. I went into the thickest of the mob, and was about for some hours, and I did not see Mr. Maskall at all.
You went into the house for the purpose of giving assistance? - I did. I have a house near Lord Mansfield's.
Was you upon the steps, or in the street about the house between one and two? - I was in the street at that time.
Did you see Mr. Maskall there? - I did not.
Did you see the mob in general? - Yes,
If Mr. Maskall had been there, and been active, do you think you should have seen him? - Undoubtedly I should, and must have known him, from the number of years I have known him. I left the place just before the soldiers fired upon the mob.
What are you? - A carpenter.
Do you happen to know Mr. Maskall? - I have known him about three years.
Was you at any time at Lord Mansfield's house? - I was, about twelve o'clock.
You was there quite at the beginning? - I was.
How long did you stay there? - Till near three in the morning.
Can you recollect where you was between one and two o'clock? - Standing at the end of the Duke of Bedford's wall, at the watch-box, almost opposite Lord Mansfield's house.
For how long a time was you on that spot? - I believe I might be there till two o'clock.
During that time had you your eye towards Lord Mansfield's door? - I had.
During that time did you see Mr. Maskall? - I did not.
Mr. Maskall having been known to you for three years, if he had been before the door was it likely or probable that you should have seen him? - Yes, if he had been before the door or upon the steps I must have seen him.
Did you see any people upon the steps? - Yes, I might tell twenty, and they were chiefly boys.
And you are clear you never saw Mr. Maskall during that time? - I did not.
Did you see any books and parchments brought out of the house to be burnt? - I did not take any particular notice of what the things were which were brought out; a great many things were brought out.
When you was going towards home did you see Mr. Maskall? - I went up to the side of the Duke of Bedford's wall, and went towards the west side of the square, and at the end of Great Russel-street, that leads into the square, there I saw Mr. Maskall stand by himself; some new buildings have been erected there; he stood up close to the buildings; that was the first up I saw him; I asked him how he did? He said, he had staid about the square till he was cold, and he was going home to bed. He bid me good night; I bid him the same. I saw him go up the street, I believe forty yards before me. I turned; then I went down the west side of the square, and went home.
Do you know that fellow Ingram? - I do not.
You say you saw Mr. Maskall walk up Russel-street forty or fifty yards? - I did, and he told me he had staid till he was cold, so help me God.
What time was this? - Between two and three o'clock.
How near to three? - I do not believe it was quite three; it was at the breaking of the day. I did not look at my watch.
I am desired to ask you whether you saw any one join Mr. Maskall as he walked down Great Russel-street? - No, nobody; nor was there any body with him when I saw him.
Where do you live? - In Bloomsbury.
Whereabouts? - In Swan Passage.
What are you? - A coach carver.
Did you happen to be in Bloomsbury-square at the time of the riot? - I was.
At what time did you first go there? - I believe between twelve and one. I was there before the door was broke open.
When did you first see Mr. Maskall? - I did not see him at all.
Where was you? - I assisted one of my Lord's servants in getting some of his things out of the house.
Was you in the house during the time of the riot? - Several times.
Did you observe any of the mob carrying any of the things out of the house? - I did.
Do you know Mr. Maskall? - I do.
You know his person perfectly well? - I do.
If Mr. Maskall was encouraging or doing any acts to abet the mob, do you think you should have seen him? - I must have seen him.
Did you see any parchments or books burnt? - I remember a vast number of different articles set on fire. I do not remember in particular any books.
Then you did not see Mr. Maskall do any one thing? - I did not see him at all.
If he had been upon the steps as you passed the house must not you have seen him? - I am confident, if he had been there, I must have seen him.
Were you carrying things out at the same time that the mob was carrying things out? - Yes.
Where did you carry them to? - I went up the area stairs with the servant Grove.
That is a different slight of stairs from that which the mob went up? - Yes.
It comes into the street? - Yes.
Then you must have seen people that were upon the steps? - Yes, I went in that way myself.
Do you remember seeing Mr. Maskall on the Tuesday night? - Yes.
Where did you see him? - Between Newman street and Berners-street, near his own house?
At what hour? - Between twelve and one; I asked him whether he was going to see the fire? He said, Yes, he heard Lord Mansfield's house was attempted, but he hoped in God Almighty that it was not true.
Had you any further conversation with him? - No, he bid me good night, and went away.
Are you so fortunate as to know Mr. Ingram? - I am.
Counsel for the Crown. Is that a proper way of putting the question?
Counsel for the Prisoner. Do you know Mr. Ingram? - I do.
What is he? - He was a doctor in physick.
What is he now? - I do not know.
Have you any reason to know any thing of his character? - Yes.
Is he to be confided in? - People think there is an hazard in that, and I think so.
What do you mean by there being an hazard? - Because he might deceive them perhaps.
I am asking you a general question; what was his character in the neighbourhood where you and he lived? - As a man who would take people in, as they call it, if they had any dealings with him.
Court. It is a plain question you are asked; you reason about it, instead of giving an answer; you say he might deceive, to be sure he might, so might any body; your answer must be more decisive.
Counsel for the Prisoner. Was he a man that was believed as well as his neighbours? - No.
Would you believe him as far as your other neighbours? - No, far from it; perhaps he might not always deceive me.
Court. Would you believe him upon his oath? That is the question which is always asked when you impeach a man's testimony; do you think he is to be believed upon his oath. - He is the last man I know that I would believe, even upon his oath.
Then you mean to say, that you would not believe him. - He is the last man that I would believe.
Court. That imports that you would believe him. You know he has been called here to give his testimony, which testimony he has given upon his oath; you are called upon your oath to discredit his veracity, and to say that he, in your belief, ought not to receive credit upon his oath. - I would not believe him upon his oath.
Where do you live? - At Richmond.
Where did you live before? - At Kensington.
You are the clergyman perhaps of that parish? - Not of that parish, I live there.
What, do you keep a school there? - No.
You have no connection with the parish? - None.
You have no particular connection with Mr. Ingram perhaps? - No, not now.
You can only speak to the general character of a person here; is it your meaning, that let him swear what he may, you would not believe him upon his oath? - I mean so.
Have you any connection with any parish, or any parochial duty? - Yes, at Malden, near Kingston.
Are you a Vicar or Curate? - A Curate.
To whom? - Mr. Bean of Malden.
That is all your duty? - It is
What are you? - A printer.
Do you know any thing of his general character? - His general character is that of an abominable lyar.
Do you know any thing more of him? - I have been in several companies where he has been mentioned, and whenever his name was mentioned, he was generally known by the appellation of Lying Dick; he was as well known by that appellation as Richard Ingram .
From the knowledge you have of the general character he bears, is he a man that you would believe upon his oath? - Upon my oath, I would not believe him upon his oath.
What are you? - An attorney.
What character does he bear? - There is a diversify of opinions respecting him; some give him a good character, and some a very indifferent one.
Which is the most prevalent of the two?
I hear that he is a most notorious lyar.
What is his most general character? - I have heard that character of him, that he is a lyar.
Is the opinion more general of his being a lyar than otherwise? - I have heard them that know him a good deal say so.
Have you had any conversation with Mr. Ingram relative to this business? - I have; I happened to be at the London Coffee-house; I think I turned in for the purpose of reading the despatches that were received from Sir Henry Clinton ; I think it was on the 16th, though I will not be particular to the day; whilst I was there Dr. Ingram came in, and after some little conversation he said Lord Mansfield writes a very plain hand, or a good hand, words to that import; he then had some letters in his hand; upon which he delivered me over a note from Lord Mansfield, as he said. He asked me if I knew Lord Mansfield's hand? I said I had been in possession of his name, and I believed that to be his lordship's hand-writing; it was a complimentary card from Lord Mansfield to him; I think Lord Mansfield was then sitting at Guildhall; the import of the card I do not remember particuarly, but I thing it was, Lord Mansfield sends compliments to Dr. Ingram, he is much obliged for some information, and probably he might hear from him; something of that import. He also produced another letter, which he said was the handwriting of Lord Stormont; and further he said he had breakfasted that morning with Lord Stormont, or was to breakfast with him. I then congratulated him on having an interview with such great personages. I told him that I hoped he would be provided for; in answer to which he said he was provided for. My curiosity did not lead me to inspect the letters he said he received from Lord Stormont.
What passed else? - That is all I know of the business.
What did you understand from Mr. Ingram, when he said he was provided for? - I understood he was provided for in the way of his profession, I have not the least idea of the circumstances.
Did he say any thing more than you have mentioned? - Not a syllable more.
Would you believe Mr. Ingram upon his oath? - I would believe him as soon as any man in the kingdom upon his oath; I have indeed heard the character of him which I mentioned, but I would believe him.
Counsel for the Crown. Mr. Ingram, I wish you would explain this conversation about the note you had from Lord Mansfield.
Ingram. Here is a letter I received from Lord Mansfield, in consequence of a letter I wrote to his lordship.
Relative to this subject was it? - I wrote a long letter on the Thursday.
Is that the letter you wrote to Lord Mansfield, in consequence of which you received that note in answer? - It is
"Lord Mansfield sends his compliments to Mr. Ingram, and returns him many thanks for his letter, he will probably hear of it."
What are you? - A perriwig-maker.
How long have you known Mr. Ingram? - Thirteen or fourteen years.
What is his general character? - His general character has been, that he is a man rather that would romance.
Is he a man that you would believe now upon his oath? - No, I would not.
Upon your oath you would not? - Upon my oath I would not.
And you have known him thirteen or fourteen years? - Yes, or thereabouts.
What, do you think he would romance upon his oath? - I cannot say about that any more than what hearsay is.
He is called a man given to romance? - Yes, much so.
What are you? - A publican.
How long have you known him? - These three years.
What is his character? - He lodged and boarded with me all last winter from August till March.
What do you know of his character? - I know he eat and drank my property, and did not pay me any thing.
What is his general character? - Not to pay-any debts he contracts.
Court. You are not called here to speak to any particular parts of his conduct, or to any other part of his character, but that of veracity. What is his character with respect to veracity? - He gave me a note here for payment of money.
Court. You were told you was called here only to speak to his veracity. - He told me a great many falsehoods, that he had something to receive at the War-office; when I came to examine, he had nothing.
Do you think him a man to be believed? - No, I do not, he has told me so many falsehoods.
Is he a man you would believe upon any occasion? - No, I would not, he has deceived me so often.
Is he a man that you would believe upon his oath? - No, he has deceived me upon his word so often, that I would not believe him upon his oath.
ATKINSON BUSH, Esq. sworn.
What evidence, Sir, are you come to give? - Between the Prisoner and Mr. Ingram, respecting his veracity.
Do you know any thing of his credit? - I know nothing of his credit, but much of his discredit.
Where do you live? - In Great Ormond-street. I have known him thirty years.
During that time has he been a man of a fair and good character or not? - When I went to school with him he was known by the same appellation by which he has now been described, that of Lying Dick.
Has he deserved that name from his infancy even until now? - From the time I have known him, from the general character he bears, he has.
You think he still deserves that appellation? - That was his character at school, and from that character I have never been intimate with him since; that is the character he has now at the Coffee-house I frequent, the Ormond-street Coffee-house.
One of the Jury. Pray, Sir, what are you? - I believed one among the Jury can inform the rest.
Is he a man that you would believe upon his oath? - No, I say so upon my oath, and I believe the Sollicitor-general, and many more here, will believe me upon my oath.
Ingram. I am in a disagreeable situation, my character has been attacked here; there is not a debt I owe which I have not written down, and have not delivered in to the sollicitor in this cause, knowing such an attack would be made upon my character; every circumstance of my life, from my first setting out, I have put down the general heads of; and some general officers, the first officers in the army, have promised to be here, because I was told that such an attack would be made upon my character, and that my debts and misfortunes in the world would come out in court. I appeal if I did not make the remark myself, and desire that such an appeal might be made to gentlemen, as to my character.
(Several witnesses were called, none of whom appeared.)
Counsel for the Prisoner. Mr. Maskall opened in his defence that he would call some witnesses to his character; if he will be determined by me, I think it quite unncessary.
NOT GUILTY .