HERBERT TEMPLEMAN, ANDREA GIRAUD, Deception > forgery, 2nd February 1874.

Reference Number: t18740202-179
Offence: Deception > forgery
Verdict: Guilty > no_subcategory
Punishment: Imprisonment > penal servitude
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179. HERBERT TEMPLEMAN (42), and ANDREA GIRAUD (52), were indicted for feloniously forging and uttering an order for the payment of 1,242l., with intent to defraud.

MESSRS. POLAND and STRAIGHT conducted the Prosecution; MR. METCALFE, Q.C., with MR. BOTTOMLEY FIRTH appeared for Templeman, and MR. HARRIS for Giraud.

WILLIAM MOORE BRANDHAM . I am a clerk to Robarts, Lubbock & Co., bankers, 15, Lombard Street—they are the London agents for Messrs. Dunsford & Co., bankers, of Tiverton—as far back as July, 1872, Major-General Morris had an unlimited credit on our bank, and we had authority from Dunsford & Co. to pay any cheques drawn by him—on Friday, 5th July, 1872, I received this cheque for 1,242l.—it is a cheque dated 2nd July, 1872: "Messrs. Robarts, Lubbock & Co., please pay to C. Carew, Esq., or bearer, 1,242l., which charge to my account with Dunsford & Co., of Tiverton"—it is written on a sheet of paper, and signed "H. J. Morris, Major-General"—I am in the country department, and the cheque would come to me in course of business—the cheque required that I should initial

it for payment, and I did so—the blue murk upon it is my mark—at that time the witness Hawkins was a clerk in the country department of the bank—I can't say that we have on any former occasion received cheques on blank paper from Major-General Morris.

Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. We were not furnished with Major-General Morris's signature at that time, and his cheques were sent up to us without at all knowing or being able to test the signature—I don't know of any other clerk besides Hawkins who has since been sent away from the bank in disgrace—I don't know the handwriting on the cheque—I know Hawkins's handwriting—it certainly is not his—I don't know it at all.

Re-examined. Hawkins has been a clerk in the bank fifteen years, and I have been there about nine years.

EDWARD GRANVILLE COARD . I am cashier at Messrs. Robarts, Lubbock & Co., and I was so in July, 1872—this cheque is marked by the last witness for payment—I paid it to a man who came from Allard's, on 5th July.

EMILE DE WAAL . I am in the service of Messrs. Allard &Co., foreign bankers, No. 3, Great Winchester Street—we are the London agents of Messrs. Allard & Co., the bankers, of 12, Place Dubois, Paris—on 5th July, 1872, we received this cheque from Paris—it is endorsed "Francis Kelvers" at the back—he was the manager of the bank at that time—the cheque was sent to Messrs. Robarts, Lubbock & Co., and the money was received for it in bank-notes—we telegraphed that fact to Paris.

HENRY JOSEPH MORRIS . I am Major-General of the Royal Artillery—I have an account with Messrs. Dunsford's, bankers, at Tiverton, and have an unlimited credit at Messrs. Robarts, their agents—the signature to this cheque is not my writing, nor made by my authority.

FRANK JOHN HAWKINS . I was formerly a clerk in the service of Robarts, Lubbock & Co., and I was so in July, 1872—I had been in their service for fourteen years up to July, 1873, when I was discharged—I was employed in the country office—in May, 1871,1 was in want of money, and Mr. McLean, an acquaintance of mine, drew upon me for 30l.—I accepted the bill, and Mr. McLean was to get it discounted for me—I did not receive any money upon that bill—it was a three months' bill—before it became due Mr. Tuck called upon me about it, he is a stationer in Union Court, City—when it became due it was presented by the prisoner Templeman—I had never seen him before—he left me his address, No. 1, Aldermanbury Postern, and he said he was a solicitor—the bill was presented to me at the bank, and he asked for the payment of the bill—I said that I had not received any consideration for the amount, and that Mr. McLean would attend to it—nothing further passed at that time—I was afterwards sued in the Mayor's Court upon that acceptance by a person named Brown—my solicitors were Messrs. Peckham, Maitland, & Peckham, of Doctors' Commons, and Mr. Templeman was the solicitor for the plaintiff—the action was not tried—the arrangement was made that I was to pay 12l. 10s. by instalments, and I was to make those payments at Mr. Templeman's office in Aldermanbury Postern—after the compromise I made the monthly payments until the whole of it was paid—I used to pay the money personally, and I received from Templeman these receipts (produced) from time to time; they are signed by him—there was also an action by Brown against a person that I knew, relating to another bill, and they were both included in one settlement, so that on the two bills 25l.

was to be paid—the last receipt is dated 21st June, 1872, and at that time the whole of the 25l. was paid—I saw Templeman write the receipts—while I was in communication with Templeman, he spoke to me upon certain matters—I can't fix the date exactly, but seeing him from time to time we got into conversation—of course he knew where I was—we conversed upon banking matters generally, and what means were used in the case of any one living in the country wishing to draw a cheque payable in London—I told him that arrangement was made with the customers of the country banks according to their wishes and their standing, some to draw large amounts and some small amounts—he said that we might use that information to our advantage, and obtain some money; that he could cause a cheque to be presented, of which the proceeds could be obtained and divided, and subsequently to that I gave him the name of Major-General Morris, and that any cheque that he drew would be honoured, because he had an unlimited credit—I told him that the country bankers of Major-General Morris were Dunsford & Co., of Tiverton, and it was arranged that a cheque should be prepared and presented for payment—he said if I left it to him he should be able to carry it out—it would be about the latter end of June, 1872, that I gave him the information about Major-General Morris—some little time before that I had received a sum of 22l. from Mr. Tuck—I had told Templeman that I wanted some money and I asked him if I could get it through his means in anyway—that was some weeks before—he said no doubt if I went to Mr. Tuck he would accommodate me—I afterwards went to Mr. Tuck, of Union Court, and got from him 22l. on my acceptance of 25l. to run six weeks—Templeman said that a cheque was to be drawn, and that it would be presented at the bank for payment, and I should inform him when it was paid—General Morris's name was mentioned as the person whose cheque it should be—he also said it would most likely be presented through a French house, and that the amount would be about l,200l.—I saw Templeman frequently at the end of June and the beginning of July—I was to let him know when the cheque was paid, and he would go over then to Paris and receive the proceeds—on Friday, the 5th July, the cheque came into the bank, and was paid—I saw Templeman on the afternoon of the same day, but I don't think I knew at that time that it had been cashed—I saw him the next day, and told him that it had been—I met him by appointment, either at his office or some place close by—I can't fix the exact place—when I saw him on the Friday afternoon, he said that he expected that the cheque would have been in—I went back to the bank that afternoon, and the following day I met him and told him that the cheque had been paid, and he said he would start off at once to Paris and obtain the proceeds—I had not given the information about Major-General Morris's account to anybody but Templeman—I saw him again on the following Tuesday after the Saturday when he said he would start for Paris—he told me that an unforeseen circumstance had occurred, the man who had been employed to receive the money had been lost sight of, that no doubt he should find him again; we should have to wait—he said he saw the man come out of the bank of Messrs. Allard and Co., in Paris, and get into a cab, that after following the cab for some little distance, it took a contrary direction to what had been arranged between them, and it was lost sight of—I saw Templeman continually after that, from day to day, and at last he told me that the man had come back to London; that was three or four days after—he told me before that that the

man had the money with him—he told me that the man had come back to London, that he had mentioned the business to some friend of his, who advised him to keep the money, or at least half of it, if not the whole—he afterwards told me that an arrangement that the man should give up half the money and keep the remainder, and the half would be divided between himself, myself, and a third person—he said the odd money, the 42l. was to be paid in expenses to the man who went to the bank—on Friday, the 12th July, I think it was, he gave me either 180l. or 183l., the difference between that and the 200l. I was to receive he accounted for by commission, exchange—at that time I did not know at all who the man was who had gone to Paris—I knew that a man had gone, but I did not know his name, nor who he was—I knew nothing of Giraud—at the end of the year 1872, I was in want of money again, and I applied to Temple man upon the subject, and he drew a bill for 75l., which I accepted, and he got it discounted for me of a Mr. Pilley—I lodged a bond as security, and this memorandum was signed by Templeman (Read: "7th December, 1872.—Bond 1,000 dollars, Cincinatti Water Works, deposited with Mr. Pilley as security for the payment of bill for 75l. for two months. Templeman on Hawkins"—on 14th July, 1873, I was discharged from the bank, and on the 15th I made a statement to Mr. Mullens, the solicitor to Robarts, Lubbock & Co.—I saw Templeman on the 15th, at his office, and I told him that these matters had been mentioned to me, and they had also mentioned that they disapproved of some of my actions, and I had been dismissed—I saw Mr. Mullens again within a day or two, and made a further statement to him—I saw Templeman several times after that—it was not until the latter end of November last I agreed to be a witness in this case—I had seen Messrs. Peckham & Co., my solicitors, from time to time, and I agreed to give evidence, and I attended at the Mansion House before the Lord Mayor after Templeman was in custody—the 2nd December was the first day I went there, and on that occasion I saw a man named Asselin—I had never seen Asselin up to that time.

Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. I remained in the bank for twelve months, from July to July—after the cheque had been presented I received part of the money—it was known in the bank that such a cheque had been paid, and that it was a forgery—I was the only one sent away—I never heard that suspicion attached to any one in connection with this matter—I believe there was one clerk sent away, but I forget the date—he was a man of the name of Mitchell—I continued in the same department—nothing else was ever lost to the bank or to any one else—I have been made a bankrupt since—that was in September last year—my father-in-law, a man named Penton, made me bankrupt—I had a house down at Merton, and a quantity of furniture—my wife was living there—I gave my mother" authority to take the furniture and turn my wife out of doors, and then I went and lived with another young lady part of the time at Godalming, in Surrey—I was discharged from the bank in July, 1873—I was called in, and asked about these matters, and I was accused of dissipated habits—they said they had had me watched, and had seen me in undesirable company; female more especially—Mr. Robarts told me that himself—Mr. Mullens was not there—he told me about the matter of the 1,200l. cheque, that he suspected me—I denied knowing anything about it, and I was then discharged—I left the bank on 14th July, and have not been there since—I saw Mr. Mullens on the following day—I made an appointment on the

14th to meet Mr. Mullens on the 15th, and then Mr. Mullens said something further about the cheque—he said something about Templeman also—he said it was known that I was intimate with Templeman, that I had been seen with him—I knew that Asselin was in custody before that—I think he was awaiting his trial at that time—he did not tell me at that time that they were going to let off Asselin—I believe he told me so afterwards, and he wished me to give evidence against Templeman as the man who had something to do with the cheque—J refused at first—it was before November he told me he was going to let off Asselin, and take him as a witness—I had four or five conversations with Mr. Mullens before November, and during those conversations he was endeavouring to persuade me to give evidence against Templeman, until November I refused, and in November I was finally seduced, and I gave a statement then to Mr. Mullens, which was taken down in writing—I said, amongst other things, that from the day the cheque was presented I saw Templeman for five or six days, and that was true—I saw him at his office, or in the neighbourhood—I know the Lombard Rooms—they are close to the bank—I have been inside there twice or three times, part is a luncheon room, and part is a kind of exchange—I have been in the luncheon part frequently—I have seen Mr. Bonbernard, and know now who he is, and I knew from Templeman where his place of business was—I know now it was Benet's Place close to the bank—Mr. Templeman has supported me from the time of my discharge until his arrest, and since then I have received such small amounts as I want from Messrs. Peckham & Co; who are also solicitors for my mother—it comes from my mother as far as I know—I have not received any money from the bank—I have not had a promise made to me to go out to Australia.

Re-examined. Messrs. Peckham & Co. are my mother's solicitors, and that was why I went to them to defend the action for me, and I have been receiving money from them—Templeman allowed me money on account of the bill, after the money was paid to Pilley—I received money from him up to the time of his arrest; on an average about 1l. a week—I saw Templeman on the Saturday after the cheque had been presented, and afterwards on the Tuesday; and after that every day for several days—when I had an interview with Mr. Robarts on the 14th July, I denied knowing anything about the cheque, but before I left I said that if they would not take any further proceedings, I would not mind telling Mr. Mullens something about it—Mr. Robarts said that he could not make any promise about that at all, I had better place myself in their hands—I saw Mr. Mullens afterwards, but I refused to appear as a witness—I did not know Bonbernard.

JOHN CHARLES ASSELIN . I am a commission agent, and reside at Brixton—in June, 1872, I knew Mr. Louis Bonbernard—he had an office in St. Benet's Place, Gracechurch Street—I had known him about two years at that time—about that time; about June, I think, I made the acquaintance of the prisoner Giraud—I met him at other places besides Bonbernard's, I met him in some wine vaults near the penny boats, in Thames Street, and at the Lombard Rooms—I remember his speaking to me about some business at Paris—that was in the commencement of June, as far as I can remember, about a week before I started—he told me that a friend of his who had an office in Lombard Street, was the son of a rich proprietor or land owner in the country, and that he was in the habit of having from his father, who was very ill in bed at the time, cheques in blank to pay for

whatever was necessary in the business; that a short time previous to that he had incurred some debts for betting, or in business, which he did not explain to me, and that he wanted to fill up a cheque for a rather larger amount than he usually used to draw, and as the father was very ill he was afraid to cause his death by showing that he was drawing for such a large amount—he never told me the amount, but he said if I was willing to go over to Paris with him and cash the cheque for him, which he could not do, because he was too well known in the Exchange there, and by everybody, that I should be paid a commission, and he added "There is nothing to fear, as I have the clerk of the bank who will let me know if the cheque has been paid, or if they will send a telegram to the father and if the father has said that the cheque is not to be paid, in which case you shall not present it, you shall not go to receive the money"—I was to have 40l. for my trouble—I asked five guineas a day, and Giraud agreed to give me 40l. altogether—I agreed to go about three days before I started—we were in Gracechurch Street, and he said "If you go over you must not receive the money in your own name, because if the father does recover (he is very ill, and it is a crisis in his illness that may recover or kill him), he will at once sue against you; and that is why you must not go in your own name, you can take any name, you can call yourself Jones, or Jack, or James, or any name you like"—he told me to take the name of Foster, and I took it—I wrote this slip of paper "Captain J. Foster, 10, Albert Terrace, Clapham"—Giraud suggested that address; he took a piece of paper out of his pocket-book and tore it and said he had no eye-glass, and could not write it himself, and asked me to write it, which I did—he took it away with him and said "In half an hour I shall bring you the cards printed"—he came back in about an hour with the cards printed—he arranged with me to start the same evening, Wednesday, 3rd July—I saw Bonbernard at the London Bridge Railway Station, and Giraud and a woman—I don't know who she was; she was some friend of Giraud's—I had 6l. given me before I started—Giraud got the tickets—Bonbernard left us just a moment before we went into the train—we went to Newhaven, Dieppe, and on to Paris—we arrived at Paris on Thursday, 4th July, and went to the Hotel de Lille et d'Albion, in the Rue St. Honore—I do not know where Giraud stayed, we parted at Paris—we arranged to meet in the Palais Royal, at the Cafe de la Rotonde—I stayed at the hotel as Captain Foster—I met Giraud that same day at the Cafe de Rotonde, and we went together to the Comptoir Escompte, near the Post Office—it is a discount office—Giraud there gave me this cheque (produced)—he gave it me just at the door, and told me to go up stairs and ask one of the clerks if they would send it for cash ment—I went on to the first floor and saw-one of the cashiers—he told me something—I came outside with the cheque, and told Giraud that they told me I had come to the wrong place, that I ought to have gone to a banker's instead of them, that they would send it for cashment if I required, but they would not pay it till twenty-two days after—he said "That will not do at all, then you come with me;" we then went together to Allard's bank—Giraud had the cheque in the meantime—he told me to give it to Mr. Allard, and send it for cashment to London—I left it with Messrs. Allard, and they told me if I came in two or three days that they would have a telegram and would let me know in a couple of days—Giraud had told me to ask for a telegram when it was paid—I left the cheque and gave a card, one of those I had

received from Giraud, with "Captain Foster" upon it, and I wrote on it the "Hotel de Lille et d'Albion"—this is the card (produced)—when I left the cheque Messrs. Allard gave me this receipt—I gave it to Giraud when I came out, and told him what had occurred inside—he said that he was expecting his friend, the son of the gentleman who was ill, over on the Sunday with a clerk of the bank, that the clerk of the bank was to meet him late on the Saturday afternoon to sec if any opposition had been put by the father to the payment of the cheque—on the Thursday night I went back to the Hotel de Lille et d'Albion—on Friday I saw Giraud again, and he told me he thought it would be better for me to change my hotel in case they were not coming, to keep my room at the hotel but simply to state that I was going over to Versailles—I did as he told me; I left the Hotel de Lille et d'Albion and went to the Grande Hotel de Paris in the Boulevard de Strasbourg—I knew that house, and had been staying there once before; I then stayed there in my own name of Asselin—on the Sunday I went with Giraud to the railway-station at the Chemin de fer du Nord; he told me he was waiting for his friends to come over; we remained there about three hours but nobody came—we then parted, but he said he knew where to find them if they had come—I saw him next day, Monday, the 8th, in front of my hotel, he said "My friends have arrived, it is all right, you have only to go and receive the money, I shall wait for you at the Cafe Cardinal"—he put me into a cab, gave me a receipt, and I went to Allard's; I there presented the receipt and received the money, 30,000 francs in French notes, thirty notes of 1,000 francs each, 55l. in English money, notes, and gold, and 19 francs and 60 centimes in French money; the telegram was 6 francs, and the other was only the difference of exchange—I signed my name to the receipt, "J. Foster"—while I was at Allard's I saw two persons there, I think Templeman was one of them; I had never seen him before—I did not know his name, or who ho was—the counter is like a corner counter, those two persons were at one corner whilst I was at the other corner, so one was near me and the other was further from me—they were exchanging some English coins or English notes for French money; one was speaking English and the other French—I came out with the money and got into a cab—I went to Gibus, the hat maker's, and bought a hat there; I had a hat which was paining me very much, and I left it to be put in shape, and went to the hotel in the one I bought instead—after that I met a friend and went with him to the Palais Royale; I remained with him about three-quarters of an hour—I discharged the cab; I left my friend and went to the Cafe Cardinal to meet Giraud and give him the money; he was not there, I waited there about two hours, he did not come; I afterwards went to my hotel—I saw the landlord, M. Chevallier, and he told me something—I remained at the hotel that night and next day; that day, the 9th, I loft for London—at the time I was in Paris I did not know where Giraud or Templeman were staying—I went to Dieppe and stayed there about ten hours—I lost a portmonnaie there, with about 17l. or 18l. in it; with that exception I had all the rest of the money in my possession—I left Dieppe at 8 o'clock that night, and arrived in London on the Wednesday morning—I went first to the City; I went everywhere where 1 could think of meeting Giraud, as 1 did not know his address—I went to the Lombard Rooms and afterwards to Bonbernard's office—I had the money with me, and I gave it to Bonbernard to take care of, not liking to carry it about me—I handed to him 30,000 francs as they were handed

to me, pinned as Mr. Allard had given them to me, by ten each—I owed Bonbernard about 70l. at that time and I paid him 27l. on account; the rest of the money I kept, I only handed Bonbernard the notes—I saw Giraud I think the same evening—I told him that I ought not to be the loser of what I had lost at Dieppe, that it was through his own fault in not waiting for me; he wanted mo to be the loser of it, and also to pay back the 6l. that he had advanced tome—I did not agree to that, I told Bonbernard not to pay over the money until I gave him my authority to pay it—I got the notes back from him the same evening, and I returned them to him about an hour or two after; that was after I had seen Giraud—on the following day I saw Giraud again in the wino vaults, and went with him to Bonbernard's—I believe it was forty-eight hours after that we came to an arrangement that he was to indemnify me for my loss, and he was to take the 30,000 francs; I was to keep the rest—we went to Bonbernard's together, and Bonbernard produced the notes and gave them to Giraud in my presence that was two days after my arrival, on the Friday—that was the whole of the money at I 'had for my share in this matter—some three or four weeks after this I saw Templeman near my house in Malpas Road, New Cross—a man was with him, who told me that his name was Walker—I recognised Templeman as the man I had seen at Allard's—Walker first spoke to me, Templeman was only a few yards off—I was in a shop, buying something—Walker came to me and said "Mr. Asselin?"—I said "That is my name"—he said "I want to talk to you"—I came out—he said "You have been to Paris, and you have received' 1,242l."—Templeman was on the other side of the road at this time—Walker made a statement to me—I did not have any conversation with Templeman on that occasion—about two or three days afterwards Walker called again, Templeman was just by—I would not answer Walker, seeing somebody very near, and he said "Oh, it is no matter, he is a friend of mine"—Templeman then came near, and said "You can say all, because I know all about it"—then I said "Your name must be Mr. Templeman"—he said "That is my name"—he said that Giraud was a scoundrel and a thief, that he believed I had paid over the whole of the money, but that he had kept it, giving them only 200l. at first, and then 200l. afterwards, and keeping the remainder—I said I could prove that I had paid the whole of it, because I deposited it with a merchant in the City, and he handed it over—he said "Will you name the merchant?"—I said "No"—he said "Will you come and meet Mr. Giraud, and then you shall have your share, your share is 300l., you have not received it"—I said "If I had known that I would not have had anything to do with the matter, because I would have known then that there was something wrong in it"—I said "I am prepared to meet Mr. Giraud"—I told them I had received only about 60l., of which I had lost about 17l.—I then made an appointment with the person who gave the name of Walker for the next day—I did not see Giraud next day, I saw him perhaps six or seven, or eight weeks after—I told him I was quite annoyed at having these people coming and annoying me, I meant Walker and Templeman—I told him they had annoyed me by going about and telling everybody that I had been a thief and robbed them of their money—he said "I don't know thorn at all; the best thing you can do is to give them in charge when they come' to trouble you"—in the following year, 1873. I saw Sergeant Reimers, of the detective police, at Scotland Yard; something passed between us—

after that I saw Giraud, that was about a fortnight before I was arrested—I was arrested on 24th June—after seeing Giraud, I went with him to Templeman, at his office at Aldermanbury—I told Templeman that I had been met by Sergeant Reimers, who had asked me some questions, and wanted my handwriting, which I had given him, and I said I was sure it was about this business—Templeman said "No, it can't be, they would never employ a Scotland Yard officer for that business, it must be for some other matter"—I told him that could not be, because I had nothing at all except this business—he said "Oh, it can't be, it must be something else, they would employ a City officer for this case; but if you are wanted send for me"—Giraud was waiting down stairs for me at this time—Templeman said that Giraud had been robbing them, there was no mistake about it; then he stopped me not to speak any more, because the clerk or somebody in the office understood French; we were talking in French all the time—he said that there was some other business, a large transaction, that Giraud knew all about it, and he asked me if Giraud had spoken to me about it—Giraud had spoken to me about another transaction—I did not agree to do anything else—I met Giraud down stairs after seeing Templeman, and I told him what Templeman had told me—Giraud said "Will you come up stairs with me, and I shall tell him before you that I gave him the whole of the money"—I said "No, I have had enough of the business"—I would not return—I told him that he had spoken to me about the large business—as to this matter, I said if I was arrested of course I would tell as it had passed—on 24th June, I was arrested, taken before the Lord Mayor, and committed for trial—Mr. Wontner was my solicitor—while I was in Newgate I was visited by a person named Hauzau—I knew him—I afterwards saw Mr. Mullens in Newgate, and made some statement to him; Mr. Wontner, my solicitor, introduced me to him—I was examined as a witness against Templeman before the Lord Mayor in December—up to that time I had never seen Hawkins at all, or heard his name, or knew who he was, until I saw him there—I was afterwards acquitted in this Court of the charge upon which I was sent for trial.

Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. I did not arrange with Mr. Mullens that I was to be acquitted—I never made any terms with him at all—I was taken into custody by Inspector Clark—he told me the charge was going to Paris and uttering a forged cheque, and I said I knew nothing about it—I did not say I had not been to Paris, because I had been to Paris four times that year; I said nothing more than that I knew nothing about it—I think it was about two months after I was in custody that I was introduced to Mr. Mullens—I was not pressed in the least to go to Mr. Mullens—the moment I was taken I gave my statement in full to Mr. Wontner, I mean the day I saw Mr. Wontner, that was three days after I was taken into custody; he had the whole of my statement—my notion was that this was a cheque drawn by a son for his father who was dying, for a larger amount than he ought to draw, so that he would cheat his dying father; but I was told he was the only son, he was only cheating himself—I was helping nobody, I was helping myself, to have my commission—I helped myself to 40l.—I was told he was an only son, that if his father recovered he would of course make it right with his father, who was very sick, and if he died he was the heir, and he would lose nothing—if the father recovered, I was told he would be very angry, and therefore I was to give a false name

in order to give the son time to pacify the father—I wrote my name as "Captain Foster, 10, Albert Terrace," on the cheque—I put the "10" in pencil—I did not put "23"—I have not been to Bonbernard's house more than twice in my life, I have been frequently to his office, he lived at 23, Albert Terrace—I don't know whether No. 10, was an empty house at the time I wrote this, or whether it belonged to the same landlord as No. 23, I had never been there at all at that time—that address was suggested to me by Giraud—I did not see Bonbernard, it was not at his office, I swear that—I saw Giraud at Bonbernard's office once, that was the first time I had a conversation about these matters—I afterwards saw him in the wine vaults near the penny boats in Thames Street, and in the Lombard—Bonbernard's office is just opposite the Lombard—I don't know whether Robart's bank is very close to it—I never saw Bonbernard at the Lombard but once or twice perhaps; I went there frequently, to the refreshment part—when I had no office of my own I used to receive my letters at Bonbernard's; my letters were addressed to me there—my name has been always Asselin; I never changed it except this time—I did nothing else there, more than doing some commissions; the letters were about commissions for me to do; I used to do some transactions with Bonbernard on business—when I executed commissions I frequently gave the parties Bonbernard's office as my place of business—he is a commission agent; he has one room on the ground floor, a large room at the back—he was frequently there when I was—I have only seen Giraud there once—Bonbernard first told me that Giraud had offered him to go over to Paris for a certain business—I afterwards told Bonbernard that I was going on the business that he had proposed to me—I did not tell him about getting the cheque cashed—he came to the station to see us off by the train—a lady went with us, I don't know who she was; it was a lady with Mr. Giraud—I did not start from Bonbernard's office, I told him we were starting by that train—he saw the last of me when I left, and I went to his office when I came back, and I gave him all the money except the 17l. or 18l. that I lost at Dieppe—I paid him 27l.—I took about 13l. for myself, besides that—I had 6l. given me to go with—I did not make a very bad thing of it—I signed the name of Foster to the cheque, I knew that was no forgery—I changed my hotel because Giraud told me that it was not advisable for me to remain there, and to say that I was going to Versailles for a day or two—that was not to keep me out of danger; there was no danger, but he told me too so, and I did so, I was under him—I went to the Grande Hotel de Paris, in the Boulevard de Strasbourg, that is not quite at the other side of Paris, it is near the Northern Railway; it is a very good hotel, I went there by my own name, I was obliged to, I was known there—the hat I changed was one that I bought a few days before I left London, it was a very hard one, and pained me, and I left it to be put in shape, and bought one of those soft hats; the other was sent to the hotel, and it is there now—the hat I bought was not a slouching hat that came over my face, it was a small hat, not a chimney-pot, I had had enough of that—my luggage was sent to London forty-eight hours previous—I had merely a hand-bag with me—I did not go to Barton's, the printer's, I swear that—I heard Barton say that I gave him the card; that was wrong, he swore it, it was a perjury—there was a watch factory in the Malpas Road, near where I lived—there was no watch factory that Bonbernard was carrying on at that-time, that I knew of—Bonbernard came once to see me in prison; that was long after I

was introduced to Mr. Mullens, I had been six months in custody—Bonbernard assisted to relieve my family during that time; he did a little, nothing regularly, sometimes 10s., sometimes 1l. when he could—he did not pay for my defence—my brother-in-law instructed Mr. Wontner for me and paid for it—Bonbermard did not.

Cross-examined by MR. HARRIS. There is no ground for saying that I am not a perfectly honest man—I am honest as much as you are—this money was to be obtained without the father's knowledge because he was too ill, and if he knew so much was obtained it might kill him—if he was to be killed I would have stuck to the money, which I did not, which shows I did not know anything about it; I shared nothing—the 27l. I paid Bonbernard was out of my money, because I was to receive 40l. commission; I was offered that before I started, by Giraud—I did not come back with Giraud, because he missed me; I did not see him after I got the money, 17l. I lost—I paid Bonbernard the 27l. out of the money I got at the bank—that was part in cash and part in notes, about 7l. in English sovereigns, and two 5l. notes—I don't know whether they were new notes; I lost them at Dieppe—I did not telegraph to the bank—I took no means to ascertain the numbers—I lost them in a billiard-room where I was playing; I did not lose them at billiards; I lost them out of my pocket in the billiard-room;. I was robbed of them—I don't know how many people were there, perhaps about forty; the money was in a small portmonnaie, it was a pocket-book and portemonnaie—I had separated that 17l. from the other on purpose, and put it into my portemonnaie, and it was in my pocket—I did not know that I had lost it till I was on board the steamer—I had no bill to pay, I had a return ticket—I was at no hotel, I arrived in the morning and started in the evening—I had some loose silver—I am married—I gave my wife 13l.; that makes 63l., with the 6l.—I was only to receive 40l.—it was a dispute with Giraud—that would be the difference that I had lost; I wanted not to return the 6l.—the dispute was about the 23l.—I believed at the time that this was a perfectly fair transaction—I had met Giraud many times before I met him at the wine vaults, without knowing even his name; I had met him at Bonbernard's—you ought to know what a commission agent is; it is an English term, I am a foreigner—I sell and buy for persons, upon which I receive a commission—I have been in that line for the last five or six years in London—I have no shop—I had an office for about a year in Lawrence Pountney Hill—I did not do anything in English races—I keep no books and no clerk, and no banking account; I have nothing at all—I could tell you firms that I did business with, no great firms—I had dealings with Sir Antonio Brady, of the Admiralty—I had a large estate in Australia, and his brother was my partner—I came over here about that estate, Sir Antonio Brady will give you an account of it—I don't want to give any other firms, I think that is enough—I have not gone to Paris before to cash a cheque—I have never been called Foster before—I wrote that name on the cheque at Giraud's suggestion, and he had no spectacles, he could not see—he speaks English as well as I can—I did not think there was anything suspicious about my going over in a false name, or in changing my name when I got there, because it was explained what it was for—I was first apprehended on the 24th June, I think—I met Giraud, and told him that complaints were made about my being a thief, that was very annoying, I did not much like it, and he told me to give them in charge—they said I had stolen the money—I never did give anybody in charge; I

never made any complaint until I was taken into custody—after I had seen Sergeant Reimers I went to Giraud—I was not in custody then—it was a fortnight before I was arrested that T saw Reimers, perhaps on the 18th; he said he wanted me to sell him some wine—I sell wine sometimes, I sell anything as a commission agent—I have frequently wine to sell—I have not any at my office, but if you want some I can send you some—I hare no licence, I am only an agent for many persons, for Messrs. Renaud Freres, for one—Reimers said he wanted some of my handwriting to know where to send for me, and I gave it him—I said "You want my handwriting, not my wine," and he had it in his pocket-book—it was after that that I went to Giraud—I was taken in custody about a fortnight afterwards, and then two months afterwards I made a clean breast of it—I was not told that if I saw Mr. Mullens no doubt I could square it, if I would implicate somebody—two days after I was arrested I saw Mr. Wontner, and made a clean breast of it—I told him all I knew, and left it in his hands—Mr. Mullens came to me to know all that I told to Mr. Wontner; he came with Mr. Wontner, Mr. Wontner remained with him—I then told this story about picking up Giraud, and his paying me to go to Paris, I had never had such a transaction before—Bonbernard never told me that the cheque I had uttered in Paris was a forged cheque—I told him so after I had seen the man who calls himself Walker.

Re-examined. Mr. Wontner acted as my solicitor all through—my brother-in-law paid him, he paid the whole, and was answerable for a part, and my family and Mr. Bonbernard paid part—I acted entirely under Mr. Wontner's advice—when Reimers-spoke to me about buying some wine he asked me to write my name and address, and I did so—this (produced) is what I wrote in his pocket-book "J. C. Asselin, care of Mr. Bonbernard, 10, St. Benet's Place"—I am quite certain that I did not get the cards printed—I was waiting in Gracechurch Street; I did not know the printer, nor where he resided—I was never near it—Giraud brought me the cards.

Louis Bonbernard. I am a commission agent, residing at 23, Albert Terrace, Clapham Road—I had an office at 10, St. Benet's Place, Grace-church Street, but I left it last December—I had been there about four years—I have known Asselin for about three years, and Giraud a little over two years—Asselin was in the habit of coming to my office from time to time—about June, 1872, I remember Giraud coming to my office and asking me if I would go over to Paris on a certain financial business he had to conclude over there, that he would pay my expenses, and besides that 10l. or 15l., or a certain sum for my trouble—I had business to attend to at that time, and I declined—Giraud did not tell me what the business was—I could not say that Asselin was present at that conversation, he might have been—I don't remember whether I communicated with him, or whether he was present when Giraud came, but he made a proposition to Giraud, and after that I saw them together at a public-house in Bell Yard, and also in Talbot Court—I ultimately saw Asselin and Giraud at the London Bridge Station, with a female, that was the end of June or the beginning of July, 1872—Giraud told me that he was going to Paris with Asselin—I don't know whether he or Asselin told me that they were going by Newhaven and Dieppe—I did not see them go by the train—some few days after seeing them at London Bridge Station, I saw Giraud at my office—he was very excited, and he asked me for Asselin's private address—he told me that he had missed Asselin on the road from Paris to London, and that

he wished to sec him as soon as possible—I refused at first to give the address—he asked me to go with him, but I told him I had no time to do so, and then he said he wished only to see him for his own good, and I ultimately gave him Asselin's address—on the following day Giraud came again and told me that he had not seen Asselin—he said he was very sorry to have made the acquaintance of Asselin, because Asselin had robbed him of a large sum of money—I don't think he mentioned the sum at that time, but he may have done so—when he told me that Asselin did not behave honestly, I told him I was surprised at the accusation, and he told me then he had an appointment in Paris at the Cafe Cardinal, and he did wait for Asselin there, but he did not come, and so he did suppose that he had run away with the money entrusted to him—I said that I did not believe it—he said I would be obliged to believe after Asselin did not come back, and he was afraid he would not return—I afterwards went with Giraud to Malpas Road, New Cross, where Asselin was living, to try and find him—I went to the house, and Giraud waited for me at a public-house opposite—Asselin was not at home, and I went to the public-house and told Giraud—he said that Asselin was a thief, and had robbed him of his money—I asked him if he was quite certain that nothing had happened to Asselin at Paris, and he said that he was quite certain that Asselin was very well, and that no accident had happened to him—I knew a person named Walker at this time, but I did not know him before—I also knew Templeman—I took him for a solicitor—after I had been to New Cross with Giraud he came to me again, and wanted me to go to New Cross again, but I declined to go—Walker came to my office after Giraud came back from Paris, but never before—he came twenty times during the day and wanted Asselin—I saw Templeman outside once when Walker was in the office, but I never saw him in Walker's company—on Wednesday, 10th July, Asselin came to me at the office and made some communication to me, and I communicated to him the fact that Walker had called, and Giraud wanted him—Asselin handed to mo on that day some French notes—I did not notice how many there were—they were 1,000 franc notes; there was a bundle of them—he told me there were 30,000 francs, and they were left for me to take care of—Asselin owed me some money at that time, and he paid me 27l. on account—after Asselin had left the money in my charge, Giraud came to my office—he ultimately mot Asselin, and I heard part of the conversation between them—Giraud was very pleased to see Asselin come back, and Asselin said "I am surprised that you accused me before Mr. Bonbernard, my friend, of having robbed you; if you had waited for me in Paris we would have met each other there, and you would not have been in anxiety, and you would have saved my anxiety"—Giraud said that he was waiting at the Hotel Cardinal a certain time, and Asseliu did not come as appointed—Asselin told him it was impossible that he could have waited there, that he had his breakfast and his lunch there—Giraud said that he did wait at the cafe, and afterwards went to the hotel and inquired for him—Asselin said "I can't understand it, because after I left the caft I went to my hotel, I slept there all the night and left Paris the next morning"—there was considerable conversation between them as to how they came to miss each other, and after that Asselin asked me to hand over to him the bank-notes, as he wanted to give them to Giraud—I handed Asselin the notes, and he and Giraud left my office together—Asselin afterwards returned alone, and again handed me the notes to take care of—I afterwards saw

Giraud in reference to the commission Asselin was to get for his trouble—I told Girand that I was surprised that after accusing the man as he did, that he was disputing the commission—he told me that if the business was in his own hands he would not dispute it at all, but as he had to give account to some other people he could not deal with it—Walker came after that, and on the day following, Giraud and Asselin were together at my office, and I then handed to Giraud the notes that Asselin had handed to me to take care of—I said to Giraud "Now the matter between you and Asselin is settled, I should like to get rid of that man Walker, if he comes again to trouble me at my office, I shall ask a policeman to put him out"—Giraud said "When Walker comes again, tell him that you know that he comes from Mr. Templeman, and he will never trouble you again"—about the commencement of January, 1873, I went with a friend by train from Cannon Street to Charing Cross—I saw Templeman at the Charing Cross platform—he asked me to have a glass, and I did so—I remained with him in conversation two or three hours—we went from the station to a cigar shop, and then to the Alhambra—he mentioned Giraud's name more than once in the course of conversation—he told me that Giraud was not one of my friends, that ho accused me of robbing him of five or six hundred pounds—I said it was perfect nonsense, because if I had robbed him of anything he would have had plenty of means to ask for it—he said that Giraud had told him that out of the 30,000 francs Asselin brought from Paris, he had only received 15,000, saying that I had kept 15,000 myself—I said that it was a perfect lie, and that if I had robbed Giraud of anything he would not have left without asking me for the difference—'when I told Templeman that Giraud had received all the money, he said that Giraud was a very great rogue because he told him that he had only received 15,000 francs, and he took him one-third of it, leaving to Templeman and another person 5,000 francs each—he said that the other person was a banker's clerk; the 15,000 francs had been divided between Templeman, Giraud and the clerk—Templeman said he would not do any more business with. Giraud, because having taken the trouble to bring the business to a certain point, he thought it was a shame of Giraud to rob them afterwards—he said "If I have any more business, I will call upon you instead of going to Giraud"—I said I would not like the business, because I could not understand that the business in which the proceeds were to be divided was an honest one—he said "Oh, you are a child, you don't understand business, there is no fear at all"—I said "You say there is no fear, anyone would have known that the proceeds were to be divided, and in what case would poor Asseliu be"—he said it was all perfectly arranged that nothing could happen to Asselin—he said, through a money lender in Union Court, he knew a clerk of a bank who was in difficulties, and through that clerk he had certain information which enabled him to do the kind of business he was doing, Asselin went over to Paris to cash a cheque there, but there was no danger for him at all, because he did not go to the counter and ask for the money, but he did go and say "Here is a cheque, cash it, and when you have received the news from London that the cheque has been paid, then I will call and fetch the money;" and at the same time that he did so that they were looking out here in London to know from the clerk at the bank if the cheque was paid or not; if it would not have been paid in London, Asselin would have been prevented in Paris from going back to the bank to receive the money—I am not quite certain whether Templeman told me that he was in Paris with Giraud, but he said that he told

Giraud when the cheque was paid, and Giraud told Asselin, and he went and fetched the money—I don't know whether he sent a telegram to Giraud, or whether he went to Paris with him—Templeman told me that some one was in the bank when Assclin received the money, that Asselin left the bank and drove off in a cab or carriage, and from that time he was missed in Paris—he also told me that between the time that Asselin presented the cheque at the bank and the time for fetching the money he had changed his hotel—I knew before that that Assclin had gone to Paris to get some money on a certain paper, but I did not know, until that conversation with Templeman, whether it was a cheque or a bill, or what it was—I did not know Hawkins the clerk at all—from the time of the conversation with Templeman to the time of his being taken into custody, I saw Asselin frequently.

Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. I am a commission agent—I buy and sell goods and take a commission upon them—I did act for people and firms upon the Continent, but I don't now—the office at St. Benet's Place was a back room on the ground-floor—Asselin did not use it jointly with me—he received some letters there—he did not do a commission business there at all—if he says so, that is utterly untrue—he was a commission agent—at first he did his business at Mr. Deacon's, where I knew him—he had an office in Cannon Street in the beginning of 1872—he had no office in July, 1872—he came to my place at that time—he was there every day—I did not use the Lombard Rooms—I went to the refreshment rooms from time to time, but not often—I don't know that I heard the first conversation between Asselin and Giraud—they had twenty or thirty conversations altogether—I did hear one—I did not hear anything said about cashing a cheque for a dying man—it was that the son wanted to get a larger cheque, or something of that kind—the son wanted to get some money, but I don't know whether that was at the first meeting—I don't remember when it took place, but I heard it said that Asselin was to go to get the cheque for a son who was drawing on a father beyond what he ought to do, or something of that sort—that the father was ill, and the son was in his business—I declined to go over to Paris—I said I was too busy to go—I went to see Asselin off at the railway-station, and Asselin came to me directly he came back—he was not clean when he came, and he went out afterwards to get shaved and washed, and left the money with me—I did not count the notes—I think I told Assclin, after 1 had seen Templeman, that I was afraid that the cheque was a forgery about which he went to Paris—I know when Asselin was taken into custody; it might be six months after my conversation with Templeman—I told the solicitor after Asselin was in custody—I don't know whether it was after he was sent for trial—I did not give any information of what Templeman had told me before Assclin was taken into custody—I was about four years in St. Benet's Place—before that I had an office in George Street, Westminster—I called at the Union and Credit Bank, or something of that kind, but I did not speak English at that time, so I don't remember the English name—I had a partner at that time in Spain, and it was to do some business with Spain—I lost my money by it, and the landlord distrained and swept off everything—nobody trusted to the bank, so nobody lost any money—I am a bankrupt at the present time, and I have been bankrupt once before—I did not pay anything, because I had done no business at that time—there were no creditors in fact—I was not a bankrupt in Switzerland before I came to this country—I male an arrangement, but it was in my father's name—I did not come over here

then—I remained there for four years—I did not fail again—I was summoned at Clerkenwell Police Court in September last for obtaining diamonds by fraud—I had given a cheque on some bank, and there was not sufficient money to meet it—I bought diamonds then—I never proposed to take a house of the Mr. Walker that I have mentioned—I don't know a house of his at Westminster, near the Abbey—I know nothing at all about it—I never went to look at it in my life—I did not tell Walker I was carrying on business as a watch maker—my bank-book is in the hands of the trustees, but I have one of my diaries here—I live at 23, Albert Terrace—I don't know whether No. 10 is held by the same landlord—I don't know whether No. 10 was an empty house—I never had the curiosity to look—I did not consult Templeman about any business after my conversation with him.

Cross-examined by MR. HARRIS. Giraud asked me to go to Paris on some financial transaction—that was not at all in the way of my business; I am a merchant, I was then a commission agent—I was doing business then in my own name, for myself—I did business for nobody but myself—I did not ask him what the nature of the transaction was, because I declined it altogether; I had not the least idea what it was—it was long after that that I went to see them off by the train—I had only known Giraud about six months at that time, I had very seldom seen him—I did not know what ho was—I did not know whether he had got plenty of money, or if he was poor—I had known Asselin for some time—I knew he was not a man of wealth, I knew ho was poor—I was certain that the 30,000 francs was not his, it was merely entrusted to have—if it had been 30,000l. I should not have been more surprised than at its being 30,000 francs; I thought he was an honest man, it was not his own money, it was only entrusted to him; I knew that from Giraud first and from him afterwards—I did not know at all what Giraud's means were, but I knew perfectly well that Asselin was only acting as an agent for Giraud—he told me it belonged to Giraud—I had seen Giraud at my office an hour or two before, and he said that Asselin had not come back, and he was going to New Cross to see if he was at home, and if he came to my place to tell him he would return and see him there—he said that Asselin was coming with 30,000 francs—he did not say that it belonged to him, he did not say at that time who it belonged to, but an hour or two afterwards he told me that the money did belong to him and somebody else—he afterwards came back in a state of excitement, saying that he had missed Asselin in Paris; I had not then got the 30,000 francs—he did not come to me after I was in possession of the money; if he did it was only for a few minutes—I told him I would not give up the money to him without the presence of Asselin; Asselin told me not to part with it without his presence—I did not find out who the third party was to whom it belonged; I did not wait till he came on the scene; I had the money from Asselin, and I had only to return it to Asselin—I had no share of it, certainly not—I had 27l.; that was no share of the 30,000 francs, I got the 27l. from Asselin, it was part of his commission, he owed me about 55l. or 60l. at that time—he was ill more than once before, and when he was ill I lent him some money—I was not a bankrupt in 1872, I had money to lend—I got it in my business—when Asseliu gave me the 27l. he said "Here is 27l. on account of the money I owe you"—no I O U passed between us—I did not give him a receipt for the 27l.—I think he paid me in English money, I don't know—Giraud said, but not to me, that I had

kept half the 30,000 francs; he charged me with stealing it; he said so to Templeman, if Templeman told me the truth—I had such a little amount of prospect from Giraud, and such a low opinion of him at that time, that whatever he would think or say of me would be quite equal to me—he never accused me of stealing the money, I was told by Templeman that he did—I took no means to put it right, my character was not affected by such a charge—I had heard before that that I was accused of keeping some of the money, and I met Giraud and Asselin together at the corner of Cornhill and said, "What does this rumour mean?" and they said it was all nonsense, they never did say a word of the kind, it was not true—Giraud himself told me so—I could only see him accidentally because I did not know where he was living.

Re-examined. The charge that was made against me at the Clerkenwell Police Court, was last year; it was dismissed—I was a bankrupt in 1869—it was when I first came here, I could not speak a word of English—I bought some furniture of a man, and paid him 40l. in cash, and 40l. in a bill—I knew Templeman at that time, and through him I came to be a bankrupt, but I did not owe anything in business at the time; Templeman acted for me at that time, as my solicitor was away, Mr. Plews of the firm of Plews and Irving—I think I have known Asselin since 1871, I knew him long before, but only to see him often since the end of 1870 or 1871—he told me before he went to Paris that his travel was to be paid, his expenses, and he was to have 20l. or 25l., or something of the kind, I don't know exactly—Templeman speaks French, I only spoke French with him—this letter (produced) is my writing, I wrote it the day after I had seen Templeman and had the conversation with him, the letter was dated 3rd January, it was on the 2nd that I had the conversation with him.

CHARLES ROLAND BROWN . I am a printer and stationer, at Eldou Street, Finsbury—in 1871 I received several bills from Jabez Tuck, and in 1871 or 1872 I received a bill from Tuck which was accepted by Hawkins—I cannot positively tell you the date, but it was in August, I think—it was not then due—I delivered it to Mr. Templeman with directions to act upon it, I mean to present it to Mr. Hawkins—Templeman afterwards brought an action on the bill in my name—I had given value for it in printing.

ALBERT CAHEN (Through an Interpreter). I am chief cashier to Allard & Co., money changers—this cheque for 1,242l. was brought to the bank by Asselin on 4th July, and left for collection, and we handed him this receipt (produced)—I saw him write the name of Foster on the back of it—he left this card with me (produced)—we simply sent the cheque to London, and got a telegram back that we were to pay it—Asselin called about three days afterwards, he produced this blue paper, and we paid him partly in French and partly in English money—the particulars are on the paper.

Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. Captain Foster did not tell me he was going to Constantinople, or where he was going.

LOUIS ARTIMON ESTAMPE (Through an Interpreter). I am a porter at the Hotel de Lille et d'Albion, Rue St. Honore, Paris—in the beginning of July, 1872, a person named Captain Foster came to stay there—Captain Foster and Asselin are one and the same person—when he left the hotel he said that he was going to Versailles—he left no address; he only had a small black bag.

JEAN CLAUDE NOEL CHEVALLIER (Through an Interpreter). I am proprietor of an hotel on the Boulevard de Sebastopol—I know Asselin; he stayed

there from 5th to 9th July, 1872, in the name of Asselin—on the 8th, which was the day before he left, he was in and out a good deal, and while he was out Giraud, who then wore a beard, came and inquired for him several times, and I told him every time that Asselin was out—he seemed anxious and troubled about it—I remember a hat coming from Gibus for Asselin; I received it myself,

Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. Asselin said that he was living in London, but he did not leave any address—he sent his luggage to London the day before he left—he took the hat Gibus sent away with him.

Cross-examined by MR. HARRIS. I had never seen him before, and I did not see him afterwards till my attention was called to him at the Mansion House this January—I was shown a photograph before that, and I found it much more like him than he is now—I was asked whether it was like the man who came to my place in July, and I said "Very nearly"—I said that I should not be able to swear to him because of the long time which had elapsed; of course you cannot keep features in your memory for so long a time—when I was shown Giraud I said that it resembled him a little; he had no beard then, and I recognised him mostly by his eyes—I would not swear to him then, nor will I now.

Re-examined. This (produced) is the photograph which was shown me—I recognised the person who came by the photograph—I afterwards came over and saw Giraud at the Mansion House; there was a great change in his appearance then altogether, he appeared very much aged, and he was rather stooping—he asked me whether I recognised him by his voice, and I then observed that I could not recognise his voice at all—I recognised his eyes and his look—he seems to me to be the person who called at the hotel, but of course I cannot swear positively.

COURT. Q. Do you recollect what kind of hat it was that came from Gibus to the hotel? A. A black felt hat; he left at the hotel the hat he had previously, and there it is now; I found it about a week ago at my hotel.

JULES LOUIS . I am a photographer, of 299, Euston Road—I do not know Giraud, but in 1869 I took a portrait of a man, and have an entry of the name of Giraud in my book—this is the photograph—the person gave me a name, and he seems to have written it down himself, but I would not be positive, because on one occasion he had a lady with him, and it may be the lady's writing—I cannot recollect whether he wrote it himself, or the lady for him—it was not written by anyone in my establishment—there is no number on the photograph.

JOHN CHARLES ASSELIN (re-examined.) I know Giraud's writing—this entry, "6 vignette, A. Giraud, 157, Gray's Inn Road, W.C., paid 2s. 6d.," is to the best of my knowledge in Giraud's writing.

WILLIAM PILLEY . I am a tax collector for the City, and have an office at 1, Aldermanbury Postern, and my son carries on business as a tailor in the front shop—Templeman was my tenant on the first floor—he told me that he was a solicitor—I have seen Giraud several times in 1872 in the passage leading to Templeman's offices—I do not think I ever spoke to him, except once when I asked him what he wanted there, as he was rather shabby looking, and he said that he was waiting for Mr. Templeman—on the first Saturday in July, 1872, I believe it was, I saw Templeman, who said that he was going to Brussels—he shook hands with me and wished me good bye—he did not say how long he should be away—I am not

certain where he said he was going, but I know it was on the Continent—lie was often away for a few days together—I know a man named Walker, I have seen him constantly in Templeman's office during the whole time of his tenaney—I took the premises, to the best of my belief, in 1869, and Templeman was a tenant there then—early in 1872, I discounted a bill for 75l.—I believe it was a bill of Templeman on Hawkins, but I don't know whose acceptance it was—it was at Templeman's request—I discounted it for Hawkins, but I paid the money to Templeman—a bond was deposited with me as collateral security—I don't remember ever seeing this memorandum before—the bill was not paid, but I received about 25l., and a fresh bill was drawn, I retaining the security—I will not swear whether it was Templeman or Hawkins who paid the 25l., they were both together.

Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. Walker is a builder, he has done work for me.

ROBERT YOUNG . I live at (5, Bridge water Square—I know Pilley—about 8th or 9th July, 1872, I went to Templeman to consult him as a solicitor; it was cither on a Monday or Tuesday—ho was not there, but I saw his clerk. (MR. METCALFE submitted that what the clerk said in Templeman's absence was not evidence, especially as the clerk was in Court subpœnaed by the Prosecution. MR. POLAND contended that he had a perfect rigid to put the question, and relied on the authority of "Price v. Marsh" (1, Carrington and Payne.) THE COURT ruled that the evidence was admissible, and declined to reserve the point.) The clerk said that Mr. Templeman was not in, and that he would not be back for two or three days, or three or four days, I don't know which—the clerk went by the namo of Thomas—I knew him by that name up to the time of leaving—I heard at the Mansion House that his name is Condie.

Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. I have seen him here to-day—I do not know that he is subpœnaed for the prosecution—I did not see him at the Mansion House—I am a builder, of 23, Red Cross Street, City, on my ray own account, and have lived twelve years at 6, Bridgewater Square.

CHARLES HAUZAU . I live at Dalston, and am employed at Ebert's, the commission agent's, in Tower Street—I know Asselin; I was present when he was taken in custody on 24th June—I knew Giraud—after Asselin was taken in custody I went and saw Giraud; he begged me to go and see Asselin—he had asked me for an interview, and I went—I did not say anything to him before that—Giraud asked me to be at Mr. Templeraan's next day, and then he asked me to go and see Asselin in prison, to ask him whether he would like to take Templeman as his solicitor—Templeman did not mix up hardly at all in the conversation—I afterwards had some conversation with Asselin in Newgate, and after that saw Giraud and told him that Asselin did not intend to take any solicitor as ho had one already.

Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. I do not know whether Mr. Templeman defends a great many people who get into trouble in criminal matters—he does not often act as an attorney, to my knowledge.

ROBERT CHILD (Policeman N). I knew of a warrant being taken out against Giraud in November—I afterwards saw him in Le Fevre Road—he went to 10, Merchant Street, Bow Road, at 10.30 at night—I did not see him again till ho was arrested—he had then changed his appearance—he formerly had long Dundreary whiskers, and they were shaved off; that was on 22nd November—Sergeant Moss knocked at the door; no one answered—I got in at the area window, and went up and opened the front door—

we then went into every room of the house with Giraud—it was dark then; but next morning I saw gravel on the path and gravel on the wall, as of a person escaping over the wall—I had watched closely, and he did not come out the front way.

Cross-examined by MR. HARRIS. I sometimes wear a moustache and no beard—I please myself about that.

JOHN MOSS (City Detective Sergeant). On 22nd November, I had a warrant from the Lord Mayor to arrest Giraud—I searched his house and he was not to be found—100l. reward was offered for him—I saw him in the Euston Road on 12th January, and told him what he was charged with—he said "Yes, I will tell Mr. Mullens when I see him all about it; Mr. Mullens can speak French"—I afterwards searched some papers at 1, Aldermanbury Postern—thoy were not in the office, they were in the basement, a lot of papers had been removed by the clerk, Condie, upon whom I found this pocket book (produced)—he said it was Mr. Templeman's—I found in it this letter dated 3rd January, 1873—I searched at Mr. Templeman's for any call-books, and a book called a cash-book was found among the papers in the basement—this call-book (produced) is not for 1872—the dates outside it are 1867, 1868, and 1869—I find entries in it "Giraud, 25, Road," and "Mr. Giraud, 7, Grove Road, Antill Road"—those appear to be addresses—when Giraud said "I will tell Mr. Mullens all about it; Mr. Mullens can speak French," I had not mentioned Mr. Mullens's name; I am sure of that.

Cross-examined by MR. HARRIS. I do not speak French; what I said to him was in English—he said he could not speak good English, but he understood English very well.

RICHARD MULLENS . I am a member of the firm of R and S. Mullens, solicitors to the Bankers' Association—we were consulted in July, 1872, on the subject of this cheque for 1,242l.—after Asselin was arrested, on 24th June, 1873, his solicitor, Mr. Wontner, made a communication to me, went with me to Newgate, and introduced mo to Asselin—I took down asseliu's statement, which I have here—I saw Asselin on 7th, 8th, and 12th August—I first spoke to Hawkins on the matter on the day ho was dismissed, 15th July, 1873—I was busy, and asked him to call at my office next day—I then took down his statement—I saw him again on the 17th, again on the 30th, and then not again till November—I asked him to become a witness; he asked time to consider, and did not come back again—I communicated with his solicitors, Peckham and Maitland, after I came back, having been away two months ill—I afterwards saw Hawkins, and he was called as a witness at the Mansion House—after Giraud's arrest I was present next day, 13th January, at the Mansion House, and after the evidence was given he said he wished particularly to speak to me; I asked the Lord Mayor for permission to see him down stairs, and I saw him in the jailor's room—I speak French—I said "I don't know what you are going to say, but you know who I am, and I hold myself quite free to make what use I please of what you are going to say"—he said "I quite understand, but if you will listen to me and receive me as a witness, I will tell you a great deal that you do not know now"—I made no reply to that—I did not take down anything that he said—(MR. HARRIS submitted that the witness's remark "You know who I am" might be considered to operate as such an inducement as to exclude the statement that Giraud afterwards made. THE COURT entertained some doubt upon this point, but as Giraud knew that Mr. Mullens

was the person to accept him as a witness or to treat him as a criminal, his statement had better be excluded, the more especially as Giraud was a foreigner.

MR. POLAND did not press the question).

Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. I have been accustomed to deal with such matters for many years—before I agreed to acquit Asselin, his information was taken on oath before the Lord Mayor; that was before he was acquitted—he had sworn in formations before I made him a free man—I then found Hawkins—Messrs. Robarts handed him over to me, and I examined him—that was in July, 1873—after that I applied for warrants against the two prisoners—one was given to Sergeant Moss, and the other to Inspector Clarke—that was not the first time I communicated with the police—I have had thirty years' experience—I act as attorney, but I certainly do not give personal attendance in watching—I do not think I ever watched a person going to a bank in my life—Bonbernard was brought to me by Sergeant Moss—he did not come voluntarily—Walker was brought to me in March, but that did not relate to this matter at all—I asked him questions about this matter—I have not taken his examination in this matter—he calls himself a builder in Westminster, he is not in a large way, I should say.

Cross-examined by MR. HARRIS. They were not brought to me to put the screw on—I examine prisoners in the cells when they wish to see me—I never turned the screw on in my life.

GEORGE CLARKE (Detective Officer). I took Templeman in Coventry Street on 22nd November—I told him the charge—he said "I know nothing about it."

LOUIS BONBERNARD (re-examined). I received this letter from Giraud—I have only seen his writing three times, but I believe it to be his.

RICHARD MULLENS (re-examined). I did not see Giraud afterwards—I refused him as a witness—(The letters were translated as follows: "Newgate, 16th January, 1874. Mr. Bonbernard, I have received to-day the visit of one of our mutual friends. I have begged him to convey to you that I should be delighted to see you, because you might be useful to me, and as he lives far from you, namely, at Stratford, he has suggested to me to write to you directly, and therefore I entreat you not to refuse this favour, and you will oblige much the person who calls himself your very devoted, A Giraud. I can only see one lady at 10.30, and a gentleman at 1 o'clock in the afternoon. I depend so much on your kindness, that I have sent word to the porter that I will not receive anyone to-morrow, but you. Mr. Reimers will see you outside to speak to you about a solicitor"—The other letter was dated 3rd January, 1873, to Mr. Templeman from L. Bonbernard, requesting Templeman to meet him at any hour he, liked to fix at his office, and stating that he would sell him, if possible, the diamond of 21 carats, of which he spoke to him the night before.

E. G. COARD (re-examined). I am second clerk in the bank of Robarts & Co.—I remember the dismissal of Hawkins—no other clerk was dismissed with reference to that matter.

Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. Two other clerks were dismissed in July, 1872—that was for intemperance—they were not in disgrace for any other act— GUILTY Fifteen Years' Penal Servitude each.


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