22nd October 1855
Reference Numbert18551022-943
VerdictGuilty > unknown

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943. EDWARD AGAR , feloniously forging and uttering an order for the payment of 700l., with intend to defraud.

MESSRS. BODKIN, PARRY, and SLEIGH conducted the Prosecution.

WILLIAM SMITH . I am by trade a carpenter and cabinet maker. I know person named Humphries, he lives at No. 19, King's-road, Theobald's-road—in May last I was working for him—I was working for him about a fortnight or three weeks in May, and from eight to ten weeks altogether, on and off—I was not there every day—I know the prisoner, I knew him by the name of Jenkins—he came to see Mr. Humphries—he and Humphries appeared to be dn friendly terms—I think it was about the beginning or middle of June that Agar first came while I was there—he entered into conversation with me—I was in the East Indies when I was young, at Calcutta—Agar remarked my arms being marked with Indian ink, what is called tattooing—he asked me what parts I had been to—I told him to Calcutta, St. Helena, and the Cape of Good Hope—he told me be had been to America and the West Indies, but never to the East—after that he used to talk to me when he came, about the war, or anything—he used to come at least three or four times a week—sometimes he remained an hour, and sometimes two or three hours, and sometimes the major part of the day—Mr. Humphries used to he a great deal out, and he used to stay many times in the front office, and enter into conversation with me—he did not distinctly tell me that he had business with Humphries, but I have heard him speak to Humphries about some leasehold property—one evening in June he asked me to take a small box for him to Pickford's booking office, in Oxford-street, opposite Newman-street—when I got there I saw the prisoner, on the opposite side of the way—he had not said anything about my meeting him there, I did not expect to see him—about a week after that I was in Mr. Humphries's office, making a drawing of a door that I was about fitting up (I had known nothing of Agar before seeing him at Humphries's)—he said to me on that occasion, "You seem handy with your pen, old fellow; would you like to leave off carpentering, and get a better," or, "an easier Bert he?"—I said I should, and he said he would see if he could not do something for me in the course of a little time—he asked me if I could meet him that night, at 8 o'clock, at Raymond's-buildings, where I had met him before when I took the box—I did meet him—this was still in June—when I met him, he asked me if I would take ten sovereigns for him to a coffee house in Orange-street; that I should there see a tall, stout man, very dark, with spectacles on; that I was to ask him if he was waiting to see Mr. A—and if he said yes, I was to ask him what he was waiting to receive; and if he said 10l., I was to give him the ten sovereigns—I went there, and saw a person exactly like the one he described, and gave him the money—I did not

stop there two minutes—I then went to meet the prisoner at Tom's Coffee-house, Holborn, nearly opposite Day and Martin's—he had appointed to meet me there, on my return from Orange-street—I told him that I had seen his friend, and given him the money, and it was all right—he then gave me a sovereign, and gave me a small parcel to take charge of for him—he told me to take particular care of it, and asked me where I lived, in case he should want it in a hurry—it was a small parcel, about four inches wide, eight or nine inches long, and about half an inch thick—it was a very heavy parcel I never knew the contents of it—I told him I lived at No. 36, Blenheim-street, Chelsea—he said, "Why don't you get apartments in town?"—I said I thought I should do so shortly—the parcel remained in my possession something less than a fortnight (I had seen Agar in the meantime at Humphries's)—at the expiration of ten days, or a fortnight, he asked if I would meet him the following morning, and bring the parcel with me—I met him at the Black Horse, in Coventry-street, Haymarket, the next morning, and gave him the parcel—he asked me to meet him again the following evening, at the same house—I did so, and he then gave me another parcel—he told me to take particular care of it—that parcel was never opened until after his apprehension, I kept it until then—about the middle of July, he asked me if I had ever transacted business at a banker's—I told him I had repeatedly—he said he should want me to do a little for him some time—I believe that was all he said about it at that time—this was as we were walking from the Black Horse towards Oxenden-street—on 4th Aug. I moved from Blenheim-street to No. 61, Theobald's-road—on that day I met the prisoner by accident in Southampton-row—he spoke of the current things of the day, and then I think he said, "Can you meet me on Monday night?"—this was on Saturday, I believe—I told him that I had moved to Theobald's-road that day, or that I was going to do so—he said he wanted me to take a cheque for him to get the money—I do not know whether he mentioned the amount of the cheque that day, or on Monday—before this, he asked me if I should like to earn 100l.—I cannot positively say whether that was said on the Saturday, or the Monday, but I believe it was on the Saturday—I said I should, and asked him what it was to do—he said it was a matter where there was some little risk to run, but if I minded his instructions no harm could come of it—he then told me it was to present a cheque at a banker's for payment—I do not think he told me the name of the bank then—he said, "Take the cheque and present it in the usual way"—he did not produce the cheque to me then—he said, "If they ask you any questions you may judge then that it is wrong; they will most likely take you round to the manager's room, and ask you who you brought it from"—and I was to say from Captain Pellatt, of the Euston Hotel, and if they asked me if I was his servant I was to say, "No, a gentlemen as I was passing the Euston Hotel asked me if I would take a note to Mivart's Hotel to Captain Fitzgerald, "to hurry there and back, and merely give it to the porter"—I was to say that on my return to the Euston Hotel the gentleman asked me many questions as to my character, and that he then asked me if I would take a cheque to the banker's and get change for it, and that I consented to do so—that was the story I was to toll if I was taken into the manager's room, and asked questions—I think that was all that was said on that occasion—nothing was given to me at that interview—these conversations occurred so frequently that I can scarcely say upon which day the separate conversations were—I met him on the Monday at Tom's Coffee-house—he said to me on

the Saturday, "As now you have got up to this end of the town, can you look in at Tom's Coffee-house every night at 7 o'clock, and if I am there I shall see you and I will follow you out"—I met him there on the Monday and Tuesday outside the coffee house—it was on those occasions that the conversation I have related passed—I could not pledge myself as to any particular day—on Tuesday, 7th, he appointed me to meet him at about half-past 3 o'clock on the following Saturday outside the coffee-house, in King-street, Holborn—I was to walk up and down there until he came—I' did meet him there between 4 and 5 o'clock—I walked up and down the street until he came—he then asked me if I thoroughly understood what I had got to do, and asked me to repeat to him what his instructions were—I did so as well as I could, and he said, "You'll do"—he then said, "Take this cheque"—he produced it at that time, and also gave me a canvas bag and a half-sovereign—he said the cheque was dated for the following Wednesday, and he told me to go on the Wednesday, and I was to take a cab or walk to Sey-mour-street, Euston-square, first, I was to get a sheet of blank paper and an envelope and address it to Captain Fitzgerald, at Mivart's Hotel, to take a cab from Sey-mour-street and drive to Mivart's Hotel and leave the note, and then drive back to the Euston Hotel—I was then to go on to the bank with the cheque and get a glass of ale on the road, so that the change of the half-sovereign and the cab hire and the price of the ale should correspond with my statement—he said, "Take the cheque and present it in the usual way, if they ask you how you will have it, say 10 fifties and 200l. in gold, and if you get the money all right come back to me in Southampton-row, Bedford-square, or Russell-square; I will be walking about there."—he said if I saw him I was to take no notice of him, but give him the money and meet him next morning at 11 o'clock, at Tom's Coffee-house, and he would give me the 100l. in gold, but if I was detected he should not expect me after 6 o'clock, he should not wait after 6 o'clock, he should then watch the morning papers, and he said they could not do anything to me if I kept to that statement—he then gave me the cheque—after this I made a communication to Mr. Mullens, I believe on Monday, the 13th—Mr. Mullens gave me certain directions, which I followed—On Wednesday, 15th Aug., I walked up to Eaton-square and inquired at the hotel if Mr. Pellatt was there—the waiter said she believed he had slept there last night, but he was not there then—I then took a cab from there and drove to Mivart's Hotel in Brook-street, and left a letter there—I then drove back again to the Euston Hotel and paid the cabman—I then walked towards Lombard-street—I had a glass of ale on the road and some dinner, and then I rode outside an omnibus to the bank—I changed the half-sovereign for the cab hire and paid for my dinner out of the change—I got on to the omnibus in New Oxford-street and got to the bank a little after 3 o'clock—I went to Stevenson and Salt's banking-house in Lombard-street and presented the cheque—I gave the canvas bag which the prisoner had given me, and something was put into it by one of the clerks, I did not know what it was, I did not see it—I saw Mr. Mullens there—the bag was given back to me tied up, I took it in my hand outside the bank door—I was instructed to do so by Mr. Mullens—when I got outside the bank I put it in my breast pocket—I walked direct down the Poultry and Cheapside and up Holborn, and to Southampton-row—I got there about 4 o'clock and walked about there for some time—I walked from there towards New North-street, and had a glass of ale at a public-house—I walked from there to Bedford-row, and was standing there some little time when the prisoner came up to me at the corner of Bedford-row and Theo-bald's-road

—he came up to me, shook hands, and asked me if I had got it all right—I said, "Yes"—he looked across the road, and said, "Who are those two fellows over the way?"—I said I did not know, he looked round again and said, "They are following us, walk this way towards Holborn"—he then said "Sling me the stuff, and then I will run for it"—I gave him the bag—before I gave him the bag, he said to me, "How b——y careless you were in putting the bag in your pocket at the bank in Lombard-street"—I do not recollect that he said anything further—he said that I believe as we turned down Eagle-street, or one of the little streets from Bedford-row—it was after he said, "Sling me the stuff, and I will run for it"—I gave him the bag soon after, I could not at the moment, because the men were behind watching us, but as soon as an opportunity offered I gave it him, and he ran away as fast as he could—he told me to go into a baker's shop, and he would run to the fields, meaning Lincoln's Inn fields—he pointed to a baker's shop at the corner, so that I should not run the same way as he did—I saw him again in five or six minutes in custody of Thorogood and Goddard—I was also taken into custody by the officers, and we were handcuffed together—while we were at the Mansion House handcuffed together, he said to me, "It was your fault that I was taken, through running the same way as I did: but if you stick to me, if it costs me a thousand pounds I will get you out of it"—this was not said loud enough to be heard—we both sat on chairs together—it was before the handcuffs were taken off.

Cross-examined by MR. BALLANTINE. Q. How came they to be so unkind as to handcuff you? A. I believe it was their instructions—it did not surprise me—I had been acting as a friend of the public and of society—I could not help being handcuffed—I believe it was part of the trick—I was not aware that I was to be handcuffed, the officers thought it was necessary that I should be—I was not altogether innocent all through this transaction—possibly what transactions I have done have not been altogether honest—I was not joining in this transaction with a view to commit a forgery, I was acting innocently from the beginning to the end—I swear that—I never intended to present the cheque—I went to Mr. Mullens on the 13th—the conversation on the 4th was a queer conversation—I began to suspect then that Agar was not so honest a man as he ought to be—I did not make a communication to anybody on the 4th, nor on the 5th, nor, I think, on the 6th—I do not know why I did not—there was no offence committed—I thought what was spoken of I was not bound to tell everybody of at the time—I did speak of it about the 7th or 8th to Mr. Roe, on one of those days he is a hair-dresser—I do not know whether I told Mr. Mullens that I had told Roe—I have told him so—I do not know whether Roe is here—I have not seen him this morning—I believe he is to be a witness—I also told Mr. Humphries on the next day, I think, after telling Roe, on the Wednesday, the 8th—I have not seen Humphries here—I do not know whether he is to be a witness—I told Mr. Mullens that I had told Humphries—I was advised to go to Mr. Mullens by Humphries, and from that time I acted as an agent of the police, for the purpose of getting Agar taken into custody Humphries told me that Mr. Mullens was the attorney to the bankers, and that he was the proper solicitor for anything of that kind—Humphries at once lent himself to the discovery, and did all he could to suggest the means of discovery—he did not behave as if he were a very intimate friend of Agar's—I am a cabinet-maker by business, but I do carpentering as well—I am a master cabinet-maker—I do not at present carry on business at any place—I gave my address as King's-place—I gave it as King-street at first,

but I corrected it afterwards—I should have said King's-place—it is in Pall Mall—I did live there three years back—it was what is generally termed a lodging-house—they are let as lodging-houses, houses of assignation—it was not a brothel—I believe there is a distinction between the two—if parties came there to hire a room, to stop for any period, I never asked them their business—the question was never put whether they wanted to stop a night or a week—if any persons wanted to occupy a room, they could do so by paying for it—there were no women kept in the house—that is, no women for the purpose you imagine—I believe men and women could come and hire a room there for the purposes of fornication whenever they pleased—I never let a room myself—I derived a little of my livelihood from it—I was living there and keeping the house with my wife—I was not gaining a livelihood by that, I was still at work at my own business—I did not leave my wife to manage the house—my servants did—she was never seen in it—she did not attend to the door—I kept that house about two years, it might be three—I have been an eating-house-keeper at St. George's-street in the East—that is since that—I have been nothing else, except my own business of a cabinet-maker—I have never been in this Court before—I have been in the Old Bailey before, tried as a prisoner, but I do not know in which Court—that is between eleven and twelve years ago—I was then eighteen years of age—it was for baying a watch, receiving a stolen watch—it was only one article—I was convicted, and had twelve months—that was the only time—I am quite sure of that—I am not sure whether it was in 1849 or 1850 that I began to keep the house of assignation—I was tried here in my own name—I kept the brothel in my own name—I have always gone by that name, never by any other name, not for one day—I swear that—I do not know whether Humphries is a married man—there was a woman who passed as Mrs. Humphries—her name is Emily Campbell—I never did messages for her—I have gone out for spirits for her—I have not acted as servant at Humphries's house, but if I was asked to go on an errand, I did not hesitate to do so, and I have occasionally acted as clerk to Humphries when he has been out—he is a house agent and auctioneer—whenever I was there at work at carpentering, and he has said, "Smith, would you mind the office for to-day?"I have done so, and taken any names that came—I never knew him to act as an attorney, the only affair I knew of was when you had him at Bagnigge-wells for an assault, or some such case—I read of that, and I know of nothing more—I have known him to be engaged in collecting debts—he did not help me through the Insolvent Court—I have passed through the Insolvent Court in 1854—I never saw Humphries about that matter, to my knowledge—I do not know whether he is to be a witness; I have never heard—he had nothing whatever to do with getting me through the Insolvent Court—I did not know him at that time—he has never been concerned in preparing a bill of sale for me—I have not been very intimate with him—I have dined with him, at the same table with him and Emily Campbell—I do not know that the prisoner ran off with Emily Campbell—I swear that—I have heard it—I only know that the prisoner was living with her, in the name of Adams, from the evidence of the servant at the Mansion House, and from what Thorogood has told me—Humphries never spoke to me about it, and never alluded to it at all—Emily Campbell was not there at the time I made the communication to Humphries—I do not know that she was with the prisoner—she told me that she was away, with her mother, ill—she was not with Humphries—I do not know whether she

is with him now—I swear that—I have not seen her with Humphries—I do not know whether she is there or not—I saw her last, I should say, nearly three months ago, about a fortnight before this case first came on—I may have dined with Humphries four or five times—I was tolerably intimate with him, when I was there I had a long distance to go home, and he generally made me have a bit with him—beyond that, there has been no transaction between us—I swear that—I was not engaged in the transaction at Bagnigge-wells—I read of it, and was at one of the examinations, and on one of the occasions I dined with Humphries—I believe it was about breaking into a house in Ormond-street, to get away a child—I believe it was on the second examination that I dined with him—I am not sure whether it was the second or third examination—I was never in the house in Ormond-street—I am not the person who represented a Roman Catholic clergyman, and called himself Scholfield—I never called myself the Rev. Dr. Scholfield, for the purpose of getting into the house in Ormond-street—I was not supplied by Humphries with a broad brimmed hat, nor had I my face blackened for the purpose of not being seen—the whole of it is a fable, as far as I am concerned—I have heard of it before, because I was at the examination—I never had anything at all to do with it—I had not the curiosity to see what the first parcel contained which the prisoner gave me to take care of—I have no idea what it was—I gave the second parcel up to Forrester—it turned out to contain several forged plates—I have no idea why the prisoner should have trusted me with it—he gave me no reason, no more than I was to take care of it for him—I have never seen the forged plates, except when they were exposed at the Mansion House—I did not look at them—I had not shown them to Humphries or Mr. Mullens—I told Mr. Mullens that I had a parcel, and I told Humphries—he did not ask to see it—he asked me what it was like—Mr. Mullens did not ask to see it—I rather think 1 told him about it on Monday, 13th, but I could not be positive—he did not ask to see it—nobody ever saw it until I gave it up to the officer—I had on previous occasions presented cheques, and received money for them—that was all in an honest way—I do not know a Mr. Sid serf—I know a man named Sidd; his name may be Sid serf—they call him Said—I do not know that his name is Sid serf—I have not heard him called Sid serf—I do not know whether Sidd and Sid serf are the same person—I have repeatedly spoken to Sidd at Humphries's—I used to call him Mr. Sidd, not Sidd—I have known him dine there once, and only once—I do not know what he is—I have been a good deal with him lately—I have not been about the Court with him—I was not with him to-day nor yesterday—I saw him yesterday, but not here—I do not know anything about him—I saw him yesterday in one of the streets leading out of Gray's Inn-lane—I met him by accident, not by appointment—he and I have never had any talk on the subject of forged plates—I never learnt from him anything about his habits, or what his business was; I have always believed him to be a solicitor—I have seen him write at Humphriea's desk repeatedly—I believe him to be a solicitor from the style of his writing—I have never met Sidd here upon a former occasion, I never saw him here—I do not expect anything for this matter, more than my time to be paid for, I suppose—I have never said that I expected to get 100l., or that I would not take 100l. for my share, not to anybody—I am quite sure about that—I have seen a good deal of Roe since I made the communication to him—I saw him yesterday—I have told Roe that if I did not give Agar into custody, that Agar would

transport me—I cannot say the exact words I said—I said that Agar's object was, no doubt, to transport me, but he should not have the chance—I meant, by his using me as a tool in the matter—I should judge that was his object—I only give my own opinion—I do not know that I am right—I cannot recollect exactly what it was I said, or when it was; I kept no memorandum, it may have been three months ago; no, not so long, two months—it was since Agar has been in custody—I said this, that in the event of anything occurring, if I was taken for arrears of rent or anything, and these things had been found in my place, no doubt I should have been transported for the possession of them—I meant the forged plates—I have not had any money or clothes from Humphries since this matter has been going on, no more than what he owed me—I think he owed me about 2l. 12s.; I have had that in two or three different instalments; at one time he gave me, I think, 1l., at another time 30s., and the third time half-a-crown; I think that was how I received it—I have not had any clothes from him—I have not been concerned in any matter connected with a will with a person named Wisheo—I know Wychelo—I know something of a will under which Wychelo claims—I do not know that it is said to be forged—Humphries is also a claimant on behalf of Miss Campbell—I believe he was appointed executor to the last will.

MR. PAARY. Q. Is that all You know about this will? A. That it all—at the time I was in arrear of rent, I had the parcel in my possession that was afterwards opened at the Mansion House—it is twelve years ago since I was convicted about the watch—there was a fight at a public-house, between two men, and the watch was laid on the mantelpiece, the waiter got possessed of it, and showed it to me, and wanted me to boy it, I gave him 4l. for it—he owed me 2l., and I gave him 2l., more—I have presented cheques, in the way of business, at banking houses—the 2l. 12s. which I had from Humphries was for carpentering work that I had done for him.

JOHN DEVERRLL , Esq. I am a magistrate of the county of Hampshire, and reside at Purbrook-park, in that county. I have kept an account with Messrs. Stevenson and Salt for the last thirty years—this cheque is not my writing, nor signed by my authority, but it is a very fearful representation of it—I think it has been done by tracing paper, against a window—there is a tremulousness about the hand—I never signed a cheque for 700l., or authorised it—the transaction is a false one, as well as the signature—I have not the slightest idea how the prisoner could have got at my signature.

RICHARD MULLENS . I am solicitor to the associated bankers of the City of London, and conduct this prosecution. I first knew the witness Smith. on Monday, 13th Aug.—he made some communication to me, upon which 1 gave him instructions how to act—on the following Wednesday, the 15th, I attended at the banking house of Stevenson and Salt, in Lombard-street—I gave instructions to Forrester and Goddard, and two officers were placed in Glyn's banking house just opposite—about a quarter to 3 o'clock I noticed a man standing on the pavement opposite Stevenson's bank, smoking a cigar—he was under my observation altogether nearly a quarter of an hour—I was looking through the window blind of the bank—just about 3 o'clock a cab drove up very fast, and pulled up all at once exactly opposite Stevenson's window, where the man was—the person in the cab put out his hand, and beckoned to him, there was only one person

in the cab, and they spoke together very earnestly for a very short time; the man in the cab then got out, just said a word to the other man, and went away, and I saw no more of him—I observed the countenance of the man who was in the cab—I noticed him sufficiently to be able to form a belief as to who he was—I believe the prisoner to be the man—I wag just the width of the pavement from him—I was sitting at the window of the bank, and the cab drove up immediately to the window, on the same side—he got out of the cab on that side—I believe it to be the prisoner—I saw him again that same evening at the station-house—he was dressed much as he is now, I think, but not in a coat of that colour; I did not see much of his dress, because all the time he was speaking out of the window of the cab—I saw him get out, but he was away in an instant—all the conversation was while he was in the cab; I could only see his face, not his figure—when he got out, he walked quickly away—my impression is that it was a dark coat, not exactly a frock coat; it was cut away at the corners; I think it is called an Oxonian, but I would not undertake to say anything about it—I saw him again that same evening, but I have no idea how he was dressed then, I took no notice—from seven to ten minutes afterwards Smith came into the banking house—the man with the cigar remained—he was walking up and down before the banking house in Abchurch-lane until Smith came—the cab went away empty—the man who got out of it went away before the cab man could get on his box again, he went so quickly—Smith came in, and presented the cheque for 700l.—he brought this canvas bag with him—I put into the bag 200 farthings, and some marked pieces of paper, and tied up the bag—I had not arranged with any one what should be done—Smith did not know—I delivered the bag to Smith, and he carried it away—I gave him some directions as to putting it into his pocket as he went out—he carried the bag in his hand until he got outside the door, and I saw him stand on the pavement, and put it into his breast pocket—any person standing about would have an opportunity of seeing him.

Cross-examined. Q. Were you before the Magistrate in any capacity? A. I conducted the prosecution as the attorney—I made no opening of the case, I examined the witnesses—I was not examined—I did not think it judicious to call myself, while the other man was at large—I had at that time learned who that man was who was smoking the cigar—I thought it would have been injudicious to have been called at that time, although I affirm that it was the prisoner whom I saw—I am not aware that he had any conception of that fact until to-day—I gave notice to Mr. Wontner's clerk that I should be examined, but not as to what; yes, I did tell him about the man with the cigar—I did not tell him anything about the prisoner—in the progress of this case, Mr. Humphries has been to me when I have sent for him—I have seen him several times, perhaps a dozen times, more or less—I have seen him when I have thought it necessary to send for him—I do not know a person called Sidd, or Sid serf—I have heard of such a man—he is not a forger to my knowledge, or a coiner, nothing of the kind—I never knew him to be convicted, nothing of the kind—it is a totally different matter in which I have heard his name, nothing whatever connected with the Bankers' Association.

ELIZA BAILEY . I now reside at No. 7, Little Ogle-street, Marylebone. Up to the beginning of Aug. I was in the service of Mr. Humphries, at No. 19, King's-road, Gray's-inn—I think I was there three weeks or a month—during that time I frequently saw the witness Smith there at work

—I also saw the prisoner there frequently—sometimes two or times in a day—he has asked for Mr. Smith when he has called, was he there, had he been there, or whether I knew if he was coming—I knew the prisoner by the name of Jenkins—I have seen him and Smith in conversation together at various times, and have seen them drink together, and have meals together.

Cross-examined. Q. When did you leave Humphries's service; in Aug.? A. Yes—I was there, I think, three weeks or a month—he had a person living with him who was his housekeeper—she was my mistress—I do not know her name, and there was a lodger up stairs—some called my mistress Mrs. Humphries—they used to call her that, because they took her to be the housekeeper—I called her Mrs. Humphries—I think her name is Campbell—I never interfered with their affairs, it was nothing to me—I know Smith well—my father used to work for him some years ago—I have sometimes seen him with Humphries, I might have done so very often—I do not know whether they have been together a long time—I do not know that they have been together for two or three hours at a time, I never saw them, they might have been so, but I never stopped—I opened the door to him, and then left him—he was doing the door when I left—I have not seen him and Humphries a good deal together, I have seen them together—I think they have dined together—I have waited at table when they have dined together—he was working for Mr. Humphries, doing the door—I have seen him as much with Mr. Jenkins—I was not before the Magistrate.

HENRY GODDARD . I was for many years an officer attached to Bow-street office; I have retired. I was engaged by Mr. Mullens to assist in the detection of this affair—on 15th Aug. I went to Glyn's banking house, in Lombard-street, which faces Messrs. Stevenson's—I saw Smith go in and come out—before that I saw a man standing about five or six yards off, leaning against the side of the building—he was doing nothing, but merely looking towards the banking house—the fact is, there were two men—I observed one standing by the banking house for some time, looking towards the entrance, and shortly after I had observed him, I saw another man—whether he got out of the cab or not I do not know, but I saw a man standing opposite the door smoking a cigar—I have seen that man since, and have heard his name to be Pearce—I have endeavoured to take him into custody on this charge—I have not been able to trace him at all, not beyond his place of residence, at Kilburn—I saw Smith come out of the banking house; he remained a few seconds outside the door, and put a canvas bag something similar to this into his side coat pocket—Thorogood, a nephew of Forrester's, was with me—I cannot say that I observed the man with the cigar at the time Smith came out, because my attention was then directed to Smith—Thorogood and I followed Smith to the neighbourhood of Bos-well-court, and Theobald's-road—I saw him at last in Bedford-row—after being there some time he was joined by the prisoner.

COURT. Q. Had he been joined by anybody before? A. Smith was in a public house by Boswell-court, and a person of the name of Humphries, I understand, came in there—I saw him there—he was in there about six or seven minutes.

MR. BODKIN. Q. What part of the house did Smith go into? A. First into the bar, and then into the parlour—I was in the house, and went into the parlour also—he and Humphries were together in the public house about

five minutes—Thorogood was there also—we were all close together in the parlour—we were not sitting, we were standing—I heard what they said—I heard Humphries say to Smith, "He will not be here, "meaning, as I understood at the time, the prisoner—he said, "He will not be here now he will be at my office at 5 o'clock"—I do not know whether Smith made any answer—I am not aware that he did, I cannot recollect—this was said by Humphries openly, so as to be heard by me and Thorogood—Humphries then left the house, and Smith went out afterwards, and I after Smith—I saw what became of Smith until he joined the prisoner at the corner of Bedford-row—he did not join Humphries afterwards—Smith was walking up and down at the end of Bedford-row, and the prisoner came and joined him, and they shook hands—they remained in conversation for a very short time, and walked together up Bedford-row, and turned the corner of a street leading into Red Lion-square—the prisoner looked back—they walked on to Red Lion-square, and crossed Red Lion-square, the prisoner occasionally looking back, down Leigh-street into Eagle-street, and then into Kingsgate-street, where I lost sight of them for a few seconds—when I turned the corner of Kingsgate-street, I saw Smith, and he waved his hand, and said, "That way, that way, down Turnstile"—I went on down Turnstile, Thoro-good was on before me—I pursued down Gate-street into Great Queen-street, and saw the prisoner being led out of Parker-street into Queen-street by Thorogood—I did not see him taken, Thorogood was on before me—he and I had raised the cry of "Stop thief!"in Queen-street—I took him into a shop there, and as I was leading him into the shop Thorogood turned back and brought Smith in—I directed that they should be handcuffed together—the prisoner asked me what it was for, and said he would go quietly—I told him it was for uttering a forged cheque at the banking house in Lombard-street—I said, "This young man," pointing to Smith, "has been followed from the bankers, where he has uttered a forged cheque; have you received anything from him?"—he immediately put his hand into his pocket, and gave me this canvas bag—I said, "From whom did you receive this?"—he said, "He gave it me," pointing to Smith—that was all he said—I then took him to the Mansion House—they were together there in a room—there was no examination then, it was after hours—I observed that they spoke to each other, I did not hear what they said—I was at the Mansion House at the first examination—Smith was then examined as a witness—after the examination was over the prisoner said, in the room, that he was as innocent as the child unborn; that he was like an innocent man going to the slaughter; that he was innocent of this case—he said he had not knownn Smith, he never had more than a dozen words with him in his life—on the same evening that the prisoner was taken into custody, the 15th, I went to Smith's lodging, in Theobald's-road—I saw a parcel taken from a little box there—Smith gave it to Forrester—Smith was not committed at all—on 4th Sept. I was with Thorogood, in Union-street, Black-friars—we followed a man who came out of a public house there—it was the man that I saw smoking the cigar in Lombard-street, the man they call Pearce—he went to Mr. Wontner's office, in Snow-hill—there had been two examinations previous to that—I think the prisoner was not then committed—Mr. Wontner had acted as his attorney—I was there, I heard him put questions to Smith in cross-examination—some time after Pearce had gone into Mr. Wontner's office, I and Forrester went in—I waited at the door—I did not see Pearce come out, in fact, I went away to fetch Forrester

from the Mansion House, leaving Thorogood on the spot—when Forrester came he went in, and I went in with him—Mr. Wontner was there—some inquiry was made—I have never seen the man since.

Cross-examined. Q. You were a long time before you recollected about the prisoner saying he had not exchanged a dozen words with Smith in his life? A. I was—it is not mentioned in my deposition—this is the first time the prisoner has had the opportunity of hearing it from me—I have no recollection of his saying it was a plant put upon him by Humphries—I did not hear him say so, or anything to that effect—I do not recollect his saying anything of the sort, not to me—I do not recollect his making use of the word plant—he said he fancied there was some woman at the bottom of it—he said that Humphries wanted to cheat him out of 200l. odd, that he owed him—I heard him say that he was going to receive 200 sovereigns but I did not understand from whom, and he thought that the money he gave me was that money.

COURT. Q. Was that after the bag had been opened, and found to contain 200 farthings? A. Yet, some time afterwards—I think he said it before that—it was before the examination—he said he thought it was the 200 sovereigns he was going to receive.

JONATHAN THOROGOOD . I am not an officer—I am nephew to John and Daniel Forrester, the Mansion House officers—I was employed in this case—on Wednesday, 15th Aug., about a quarter to 3 o'clock I went to Lombard-street in company with Goddard—I went into Glyn's banking house to watch Stevenson and Salt's house—I saw Smith, and I saw a man standing outside Stevenson and Salt's, whose name I have since ascertained to be Pearce—I saw him standing there, and also walking up and down, and smoking a cigar—I saw Smith go into Stevenson's—the man was not there then—I watched Stevenson's house, and saw Smith come out with a bag in his hand—he stood on the pavement opposite the door of the banking house, put the bag into his breast coat pocket, buttoned his coat up, and walked away—I saw a cab opposite the banking house—I saw the cab before the man was walking up and down—the man and the cab were there at the same time—I did not see the man get out of the cab—I saw the man with the cigar in his mouth walking up and down by the cab—he was not there when the cab drove up—he was there while the cab was there—he was not walking there before the cab came up—he was walking up and down there whilst the cab was standing there—I did not see him until just after the cab came up—I was put there to watch for a party going into Stevenson and Salt's banking house—I followed Smith with Goddard until he came to Bedford-row—I saw him go into a public house as he went along, at the corner of Boswell-court—at that time he had the bag in his breast pocket—I went into that public house—I afterwards followed him to Bedford-row, and there saw the prisoner meet him—he came from up John-street, I believe—they shook hands with each other—I saw them talking together I should think between three and five minutes—they then walked up John-street together, talking—they walked up several turnings through Red Lion-square, till they came into Kingsgate-street, Holborn—when I turned into Kingsgate-street I missed the prisoner—I ran up and spoke to Smith—I ran across Holborn, down New Turnstile into Gate-street, Great Queen-street, Little Queen-street, into Parker-street—I saw the prisoner running during this time; not the whole of the time, but from time to time—I am sure it was the same person that I had seen with Smith—I called out, "Stop thief!"—I am not aware that that was

cried by anybody else except myself—the prisoner heard it, and turned back and looked at me several times—several persons attempted to stop him—when I was turning into Parker-street, he was walking towards me with his hat off—I laid hold of him—he said, "You have made a mistake; down that way, down that way!"pointing with his finger, "I have done nothing"—I said, "Come on, you will hear presently"—Goddard then came up, and he was taken into a shop in Little Queen-street—I went out of the shop, and took Smith—he was amongst the crowd in Little Queen-street—he had followed Goddard—Smith and the prisoner were then handcuffed together—the prisoner said to Goddard, "I have done nothing, what is it!"—Goddard said, "The fact is, this young man, "pointing to Smith, "has been watched from the banking house, in Lombard-street, and you have received something from him; what have you done with it?"—the prisoner put his hand in his breast coat pocket, took out this bag, and gave it to Goddard—Goddard said, "From whom did you receive this?"—the prisoner pointed with his finger to Smith—Forrester then came up; he was in the neighbourhood, and they were taken to the Mansion House—at the Mansion House I saw them talking together, but I was not able to hear what they said—I know the house, No. 7, Stanley-place, Paddington—on 18th Aug. I watched that house, and about 7 o'clock in the evening, I saw the same man that I had seen smoking outside the banking house in Lombard-street, come to that house with another man, a Jew looking man—on 4th Sept., I was at Kilburn, and saw the same two men at the Red Lion there—I followed that man as far as Mr. Wontner's office, in Skinner-street—I have never seen him since—I have endeavoured to find him.

Cross-examined. Q. You say you followed Smith into a public house? A. I did, at the corner of Boswell-court—Humphries came in afterwards, and they had a chat together—I heard what they said—when Humphries came in he said, "Oh, here you are, "and he laid hold of Smith's arm, and said, "Come this way, "and took him into the parlour—I followed them in—Humphries said, "Have you got it?"and Smith said, "Yes, "touching his pocket—Humphries said "Pull it out, and let us see it"—Smith did not attempt to pull it out—I stopped their conversation immediately—I said, "No, not in my presence, for if you take it I shall take you into custody; my instructions are to take the first man that Smith gives the bag to."

JOHN FORRESTER . I am an officer of the City. On 15th August I took the prisoner into custody at a shop in Little Queen-street, Lincoln's Inn Fields—I told him he was taken for a forgery—Goddard was there at the time, and I think he had told him previously what it was for—the bag was handed to me by Goddard—the prisoner and Smith were then taken to the Mansion House—I searched him there—I found on him several keys, amongst them a street door key, which I afterwards found fitted the door of No. 7, Stanley-place, Paddington—on the evening of 15th August I went to Smith's lodging, and in Goddard's presence took possession of this parcel (produced)—it was under a table, I think in a box, and he pulled it out, and gave it to me—it was tied up very tight—it contains some engraved plates for cheques of five different bankers, two of Robarts' and Curtis', one of Ransom's, one of Glyn's, and one of a Banking Company at Jersey—there are also thirteen pieces of paper, counterfoils of printed cheques, four blank cheques of Hill and Sons, and two of Lacey and Sons, Bankers, in Smithfield, forty-nine of the Eastern Bank, Norwich, sixty-nine of Coutts', three sheets of tracing paper, a forged 5l. Bank of England note, and a forged 10l. Bank of England note, three blank cheques, and some types.

Cross-examined. Q. Did you find any memorandum on the prisoner, connected with money matters between him and Humphries? A. No; I have a book here, which has the name of Humphries in it—that was taken from a portmanteau at the prisoner's lodging—I found that Emily Campbell was living at the prisoner's lodging—they were living together under the name of Mr. and Mrs. Adams.

ELIZABETH SCURRY . I am servant to Mrs. Hurst, of No. 7, Stanley-place, Paddington—in August last, the prisoner lodged there—he passed by the name of Mr. Adams—about 18th or 20th August I gave a portmanteau to Forrester—the night before that, a person made application for it, and I refused to give it up—I gave it to Forrester on the Saturday morning.

Cross-examined. Q. Do you know what has became of Mrs. Adams? A. No; I do not—she has left the house.

MR. BODKIN proposed to adduce evidence for the purpose of showing that forged cheques, impressions from the plates found at the witness Smith's lodging, and stated to be given him by the prisoner, had been successfully used on other occasions.

MR. BALLANTINE did not object, but MR. BARON ALDERSON was of opinion that it was not admissible, as it had no tendency to confirm the evidence of Smith, upon whose testimony the cam entirely depended.

ROBERT ALEXANDER TILCOOK (City policeman, 61). The prisoner was brought to Bow-lane station—I asked him his name and address, which he refused to give—he said he was a tailor by business.

(The cheque for 700l. was dated August 15th, 1865, drawn by John Deverell on Messrs. Stevenson and Salt, payable to W. Pellatt, Esq., or bearer.

GUILTY . Aged 30.— Transported for Life.

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