The Proceedings of the Old Bailey

 

299.   FREDERICK CHARLES MATURIN was indicted for unlawfully obtaining money of   Frederick Greenwood Hales,   John Henry Seamer, and others, by false pretences.

MESSRS. BALLANTINE and ROBINSON conducted the Prosecution.

  FREDERICK GREENWOOD HALES . I reside in Grove street, Camdentown; I am a carpenter and turner. I know the prisoner—I first saw him about the 12th Sept.—I went then to where he resided, at No. 42, King-street, Woolwich—I was first introduced to him by a man of the name of Thompson—the prisoner said to me, "You are the party that wants to go to Australia, are you not?"—I told him I was—he asked me what I was—I told him I was a carpenter and turner—he asked if I was married—I told him I was, and I had three children—he asked me their ages—I told him a little girl six years old next birth day, a little boy three years of age, and another little boy about sixteen months—I asked him if he could get me out—he said, "Oh, yes," and he gave me a printed form—there was nothing done at that time with that form; it was not written on, it was folded up—he asked for a sovereign, and I paid it—nothing further was said with respect to the price at that time—he told me to take that form home, and fill it up according to the directions on it, and bring it to him in about a week's time—I filled up that form, and went to him about a week afterwards myself, along with a man of the name of Hindes—I took the printed form which I had filled up, with me—I gave it to the prisoner—he looked at it, and said it was filled up incorrectly, on account of my name—there was a mistake in my name, and he gave me another one to fill up, and said I was to send it down to him as soon as I could—but then there were three of us wished to go, and it was agreed I should act for them—there were three families, myself, my wife, and children; Learmond, and his wife and family; and Hindes and his family—that was mentioned to the prisoner on the second occasion—I mentioned it to him myself—I said, "Now, Sir, let us understand: what have we to pay you to get us out?"(the other persons had had an introduction to him, and he had given them a form the same as me)—I said, "What have we to pay you to get us out?"—he said, "Let me see, how many of you are there going?"—I told him the three families, that was Hindes, and myself, and Learmond—I told him how many there were, and I said, "There was something said about 20l"—he considered for half a minute, and he said, "Yes, that will do"—he said, "I would rather treat with you than a good many, and I will look to you for the money"—I had 2l. with me, and he said, "You make me up 5l. now, and the other 5l. when I obtain for you what is called an approval order, and the other 10l. when I obtain for you the embarkation order"—I said to him, "1l. I paid you when I got the form, Learmond has paid you 1l., which I paid you myself, and Hindes 1l., and here are 2l., which makes 5l. "—previous to paying the 2l., I asked if he had authority to get us out, and he said, "I have sufficient influence to do all I say I will do, and all I promise you"—there were two different papers given me to fill up—this is the last one (looking at it)—he could not have the other, because I destroyed that myself—at the time he gave me the second form, he said he had influence to get me out—the form was to be directed to S. Walcott, Esq., Park-street, Westminster—he did not mention the Commissioners, or Park-street, before I paid the 2l., but afterwards—he said that he could send me—he did not say anything about having authority to receive any money; no more than he said he could do it and he would do it—he did not say he had authority to receive money—I saw him again after the second interview—he said I was to see him again in a week or ten days—I filled up the form and sent it to him by post—I did not post it myself, but this is the form—I saw him again in about a week or ten days, at Woolwich—I always saw him at Woolwich—he told me that my

paper was right, I should go—I told him I thought I could not go—he said, "Why not?"—I told him I had three children under seven years of age—I he said, "That is all nonsense; I will make that right"—he then turned round and took a memorandum book off the sofa, or some place, and he said, "Mr. Bishop," or "Mr. Bailey has passed you all; you, Learmond, and Hindes, and you are all right."

Q. Did he say anything about the number of persons who were waiting for turns? A. Yes—one and another were talking, and I said, "How is it we can get out?" and he said, "If you apply to Park-street, in the ordinary way, you will have to wait your turn of 15,000 or 16,000"—he said if we paid him the money, he would get us out when we pleased—I believe he said that every time—he said it before he got the money—he said, on the first occasion, "Mark down on your paper the time you want to go"—I said I wanted to go about Feb.—he said, "That will do"—he said on the first occasion, "I can get you out any time you want to go "; and he asked me what time, and I said, "February"; and in the course of the same conversation he said, "I can get you out any time you want to go"—I believe nothing was said about our having to wait our turn of 15,000 or 16,000 on the first occasion—I believe that was on the second occasion—it was before I paid the 2l., because directly I paid the 2l. we came away—he told me to destroy the first form—on the bottom of this second form here is, "Wish to embark at the end of Feb., 1855"; that is my wife's writing—the first form was filled up just as this is—I can swear that "Wish to embark at the end of Feb., 1855," was on the first form—I wrote it myself—on the second occasion he said, if we applied to Park-street, we should have to wait our turn of 15,000 or 16,000, and it would take us two years, as all these applications were before us.

Q. What induced you to pay him the 2l.? A. I was introduced to the prisoner by Thompson.

Q. But what representation of the prisoner was it that induced you to pay that 2l.?A. He did not represent anything, he only said that he could do it—that was the whole and sole reason—I paid the 2l., because I knew that he had got other men out, and he said he would get me out in the same way—I took his word for it, and paid him the money—he said he would do all that he promised to do, he would get us out to Adelaide—it was his promise induced me to do it, certainly.

COURT. Q. What did you believe him to be? A. A gentleman—I did not at that time believe him to hold any office—I relied on his promise, and his saying he had influence and power to do it, and would do it.

MR. ROBINSON. Q. On the third or fourth occasion, having told you you were passed, did he say anything about the orders waiting? A. Yes, on the third occasion he said, "You are passed"—I then asked him when we could have our approval orders—he said, "When you like; they are all ready, waiting for you "; and he said we had to pay him our 5l.—I said, "Will it do if we come for them in about a week's time; we may have our 5l. ready by that time; can we have the approval orders?"—he said, "Yes," we could have them—I made some inquiries on a Saturday at the emigration office—I got some information—I saw the prisoner afterwards on 3rd Dec; I told him he had been deceiving us; he could not send us; he had no power to do it; "You have no power to get us out, "I think I said—that was on the Sunday—I told him the papers were not at Park-street; he had told me that they Were when he told me that they were waiting

for me, he told me they were at Park-street—I told him the papers were not at Park-street—he said it was all d—stuff, he had the power to send us, and he would send us; he had the power to do so, and would do so, in spite of the Commissioners, or anybody—he brought up some papers and said, "I have heard from the Commissioners in Park-street; I shall go up there to-morrow and set this right," and he would come round and fetch us all in a cab, and take us to Park-street—that was on the Sunday previous to his being apprehended—he did not come and fetch us—I did not see him again till he was in custody—I never paid him the second 5l.

Prisoner. Q. Before you came to me, had you seen me? A. No; I had heard of you from Thompson—he knowing that I had a wish to go to Australia, said, "I will take you to a man that can get you there"—I went to you in consequence of Thompson telling me that.

COURT. Q. Who is Thompson? A. A working man, a sawyer; he is gone to Australia.

Prisoner. Q. Do you know whether it was through my agency that Thompson went out? A. I only know what Thompson told me, that you got him out—I came to you with Thompson on the first occasion—it was on that first occasion that I came to you that you gave me the printed form—Thompson did not say in my presence, "This man wishes to go out in a similar manner to what we are going"—you did not point out to me on the form under what regulations persons would be sent out—the form was not opened—I never opened the form till I got home—you did not tell me to read it—you said, "Fill up that form, and bring it down with you in a week's time to me"—I read it when I got home—the form stated under what qualifications or regulations I would be taken out, and that was the reason I pointed out to you respecting the children—I told you I was not qualified, and you told me you could do it—I believe I pointed out that to you every time I saw you, because I had my doubts about it—after I had discovered it, I pointed it out to you, and you told me you would settle that—on the third occasion you told me I was passed—(at the prisoner's request the witness's deposition was here read)—I said on the first occasion that I was not eligible on account of having three children; that was after I had filled up the first paper—when I brought you the first paper I told you that—you took out a memorandum book, and told me Mr. Bailey or Mr. Bishop had passed me—it was an ordinary penny memorandum book—I think it had red covers, but not being sure I did not say so—I know it was an ordinary penny memorandum book.

Q. Your object was to employ me to get you to Australia 1A. My object was to go there—I went to you because I thought you could get me out—I did not know by what means—I took your word for it—you told me you could get me out—I went to you in consequence of what Thompson told me, that you could get me out—that was the reason I went to you—when I stated that my friends had paid you 2l., I meant that my friends Learmond and Hindes had paid you 2l., 1l. each—I believe Learmond and Hindes had applied to you previous to my coming—they told me they had been there—when I brought the first form to you, you told me it was incorrectly filled up—I applied to you in the name of Frederick Greenwood and the first form I filled up in the name of Frederick Greenwood—I signed the declaration attached to the form—you looked at me and said, "I thought your name was Hales"—I said, I thought it was no consequence; I was illegitimate—I took my marriage certificate on the second occasion,

but it was with the first paper that I took back that the name was Greenwood.

COURT. Q. Then you took the certificate on the second occasion? A. Yes; when I took the form back—on the certificate, the name is "Frederick Greenwood Hales," and in consequence of that, the defendant said my name was incorrect as Frederick Greenwood—I took Greenwood as a Christian name—I had not gone by the name of Frederick Greenwood Hales—I went by the name of Greenwood—my shopmates knowing me by the name of Greenwood, and Thompson knowing me by that name, I was introduced to the prisoner in that name.

Prisoner. Q. Did you not state to me that you had seen a letter from Mr. Bailey to Thompson, saying that if he did not pay me he could not go? A. I am certain I never did state that to you—I do not believe that I ever did state so—I did to Mr. Bailey.

Q. Did you not at my lodging say that you saw a letter from Mr. Bailey to Mr. Daniel Thompson saying, that if he did not pay me he could not go? A. I cannot say for certainty that I did or did not; I cannot recollect whether I said in course of conversation that I thought you must have great power, for I had seen a letter from Mr. Bailey to Thompson saying, that he could not let him go without he paid you—I do not recollect—when I first had the form, I paid you 1l.—I paid you 2l. afterwards which made 3l., and I then paid you 2l. more on account of the 20l. that was mentioned to get us all out—on account of the whole of us.

Q. Did you not understand that this was for my expenses and loss of time; going up to town and inquiring? A. No; I never understood any-thing of that sort—I gave you the 1l. to get us to Adelaide—I did not know for what services, or how you were to do it—you said you would get us to Adelaide, if we paid you that money.

Q. Did not the offer of paying me 20l. emanate from yourself, or did I demand 20l. from you? A. I said there was something said about 20l.; you said, "Yes; 20l. will do; I will get you out for 20l. "—it was about the 12th Sept. I first came to you—I do not know that you stated on the first occasion, that I should have to wait my turn of 15,000 or 16,000—you did on the second occasion, I will swear that.

MR. ROBINSON. Q. Do I understand you went by the name of Greenwood amongst your workpeople? A. Yes; but my certificate was in the name of Hales—my wife's relations found out more than I did, and I was compelled to be married in the name of Hales—I have been married eight years; but I have gone by the name of Greenwood—I was bound apprentice in the name of Greenwood, and persons who worked with me knew me by the name of Greenwood; but my wife went by the name of Hales—Hindes and Learmond were workpeople—they knew me by no other name than Greenwood, nor did Thompson.

Q. You have been asked whether you had seen a letter from Mr. Bailey, saying that he would not let Thompson go out, unless he paid the defendant? A. Yes; it was shown me by Thompson—he said, "Look here what I have got from Mr. Bailey," and he showed it me—the name of Bailey was signed to it, saying that if he did not call and pay the 2l. to Mr. Maturin, he should not go—Thompson told me that Maturin had got him out—my deposition, and what I stated on cross-examination is true to the best of my belief—there may be a little word or two altered—I said, on the second time I showed him the printed form and said I did not think I was eligible, because I had three children under seven—he said, "I can do

that," and laughed—he took out a book and said, "Mr. some name has passed you"—the first time he merely gave me the form—I signed the declaration after I had called his attention to the ages of the children, because he said it was all right, he could do it.

Prisoner. Q. On the Sunday did I not read to you a letter which I had received from the Commissioners? A. You read some long paper—I could not say what was in it—that was on the Sunday previous to your being given into custody—you did produce a letter, and said it was a letter you had had from the Commissioners at Park-street—that was on the Sunday before you were apprehended—you read it, and you read what you represented as your reply, but I do not know what was in it—I did not read the letter which Thompson told me he received from Mr. Bailey—Thompson came down with a letter in his hand, and said, "Look here, what I have received from Mr. Bailey"—I saw the name of Bailey on it—it was not a form—it was on a small sheet of note paper.

  CHARLES CHURCH BAILEY . I am in the Emigration Office. There is no other person of the name of Bailey in the office—I do not know a William Bailey connected with the office.

Prisoner. Q. Did you ever hear of Thompson, or know him at all? A. I know that a person of the name of Thompson went as an emigrant—I do not know that I ever saw him.

COURT to FREDERICK GREENWOOD HALES. Q. Just collect your mind, and answer me correctly this question; was it in consequence of the representations on the part of the defendant that he had power to get you out, or was it in consequence of the statements you heard from Thompson, that you paid him the 2l.? A. It was in consequence of what the defendant said himself, that he had the power to get me out—he said he bad the power—I did not believe him to be an authorized agent when I first went to him, nor when I paid him the 2l.

Q. What power did you believe him to have? A. I believed, certainly, that he could do it, because I knew that he had done it for others, or else I should not have gone to him.

Q. Was it because he had done it for others, or because he said he could do it, that you paid the money? A. It was both—I was not aware when I first applied to him that my family would make me ineligible—not till I took the form home.

  ARCHIBALD LEARMOND . I reside in Upper Harland-street, Kentish-town, and am a carpenter. In September I was desirous to emigrate—I saw the defendant at his house, at Woolwich, about 12th Sept.—I was introduced by a person named Thompson—the defendant asked my age, my family, and my occupation—I told him I had a child two months old, and I had a boy nearly three years of age—I said, "Do you think there is any chance of my getting out?"—he said, "Certainly, you are eligible; I will send you out in spite of everything, or else I should not take your money"—there was nothing said that night about the pay he was-to have, but we paid him 2l., Hales and me, the first night—I paid him that, because Thompson had told me before—Thompson was with us—Thompson introduced me—he said, "This is Learmond, the party I told you about"—the prisoner said, "Take a seat"—I sat down, and he asked my age and my family's age—I said, "Am I eligible? can you send me out?"—he said, "Certainly, I will send you out in spite of everything"—he gave me some papers, one form for me and one for Greenwood Hales, and I. paid him 1l.—he said, "I will get you out in spite of everything, or else I should not take your money"—I paid

that pound became he told me he had sufficient influence and power to send me out, and he had a brother out there—he said that after I paid the money, and before also.

COURT. Q. Then he said it twice? A. Yes; he used that word "power," that he had power to send me out, before I paid my money.

MR. ROBINSON. Q. He told you you were eligible; was anything said even if you were not eligible? A. No, he said nothing about that—what induced me to part with my money, was his saying that he had power; and I knew very well that he had power, he was actually getting Thompson and some other fellow workmen of mine away—I only knew at that time that he was getting Thompson away, from what Thompson had told me—I knew it from what Mr. Maturin himself told me, but that was afterwards—I have told you the main substance of what took place on the first occasion—I saw him again about 1st Oct.; that was at Woolwich—I asked him about my approval orders; he said, "They are ready, whenever you are ready with your money"—he said, "Let me know when you are ready"—I told him I would—I had not raised the money then—I did not pay him any money on 1st Oct.—all the money I paid him was 1l. on the first occasion, with my own hand; but Greenwood Hales paid him 13s. on my account—it was the third time he told me it was through his influence Thompson was sent—I said, if he was not very sure of my getting out, I would not go on with this—he said, "You have got proof of it; I have sent Thompson, and I have sent Marsh, your shopmates."

COURT. Q. When was this? A. About 9th Nov.; I asked him for my approval orders—I had expected them before—I told him I was not going to part with my money, without I got my approval orders—I asked him, over again, if there was any chance of my getting out—I said he had put me to great expense and inconvenience, and I wished to know if he had power to send me away—he said, "Certainly, I have the power; you see I have; I sent out your shopmates; I sent Thompson, and I sent Marsh."

MR. ROBINSON. Q. Did you, at any time, pay him any money for Seamer? A. Yes; I paid him 2l. 10s. for Seamer, I think about 12th Nov.—that was in consequence of Seamer having directed me to do it, and giving me the money.

Prisoner. It was Thompson and yourself came to me. Witness. Yes; Hales was not with us—it was about 12th Sept.—I do not know whether Hales had been then—it was on the very first occasion you told me you had power or influence to take me out, or else you should not have had any money—I did not see you on 9th Nov., in consequence of your sending for me—you never wrote to me at all—I remember stating to you, on that day, that I was perfectly satisfied with what you had dope; but I cannot do so now—I did not go to the Emigration Office on 9th Nov.—I went into Park-street, but not into the office—you did not want me that day.

COURT. Q. Did he go into the office? A. Yes, he went in.

Prisoner. Q. Did you not, on one occasion, go with me to the Emigration Office? A. Yes; but that was about the 12th or 13th, for my application form—you went into the passage, and told me to go up stairs to one Mr. Bishop for my application form—you gave me a note to Mr. Bishop—I went up and delivered the note, and likewise my papers—I saw Mr. Bishop; he took them, and looked at them—you were not there at that time—you told me, if there was anything wrong, you would be over in Fendall's Hotel; I could get you there.

COURT. Q. That is in Palace-yard? A. Yes—there was a difficulty

about my papers, and I went to Fendall's, and found the defendant there—I said, "Mr. Maturin, Mr. Bishop says I must have more certificates, the certificates of my children and my wife" (the baptismal certificates)—the defendant said, "I will come along with you"—he went back along with me—he went up to Mr. Bishop's office—Mr. Bishop said he did not see anything against me, but it was out of his power, or any other man's, to offer me a passage—I said to the defendant, "I can't get the certificates of my wife and children so quickly as they are wanted"; and he said, "You can make an affidavit of their ages"; and Mr. Bishop said that was perfectly right, that would do as well as my certificates—I was not passed at all—I was told to get these certificates—Mr. Bishop did not say I was eligible; but he said he saw nothing against me, if I got my certificates or the affidavits—he said that neither he nor any other man had got any power to offer me a passage, until the Commissioners had given their consent.

Prisoner. Q. Did you not leave the office with me, perfectly satisfied? A. No; I felt a doubt—I did not express to you any doubt at that time—I do not recollect that you remarked to me that you returned money to some persons—I saw you pay 2l. to a man that you could not get away—he wished to go to Melbourne, I think, and you could not get him there, and you returned him 2l.—it was a man of the name of Peddy—that is all I remember.

Q. You wished to go in Feb., and I told you I was going to Wales—I told you if your application went in, you would have to go almost immediately; did you not state to Mr. Bishop you wished to go in Feb.? A. Yes—I do not remember being told about two men, that they would come round in turn, if you sent them in about six weeks' time—I said one day that I came on account of Greenwood Hales, because he had a bad leg.

MR. BALLANTINE. Q. Where was this money given back to Peddy? A. In Storey's-gate Hotel.

  JOHN HENRY SEAMER . I am a sawyer—I live in Lea Bourne-road, Camden-town—I was working at Collard's—Hales and Learmond were working there—Thompson had worked there—I sent in an application to the Emigration Office, in Park-street, Westminster, and on 22nd Oct., I received a refusal order—from something I heard, I went on 29th Oct. to No. 42, King-street, Woolwich—I saw the defendant—he first sent his servant to know who it was—after a little waiting, another party came, and the defendant came down—he said to the other party, "Have you got your papers?"—he settled with that man, and then he said to me, "Are you the man that wants to see me"; I said, "Yes; I have come about a passage to Australia"—he asked me where I wanted to go; I told him to Sydney, but I said, "Before we go any further, I wish to state I have applied to Park-street, and received a refusal answer"—I opened the envelope and handed it to him; he took it from me, and laughed at it—he said, "Because there are so many applications, 15,000 or 16,000, there must be some refusals; they must refuse somebody, but you are the very party they want out there, having a wife and no family"—he took the order and said, "I will see into it"—I thanked him and was coming away, and he said, "Do you know what you will have to pay for going to Sydney?" I said, "Yes, 15l. according to the regulations—5l. to the commissioners, and 10l. within fourteen days after my arrival in the colony"—he said, "You had better go to Adelaide; you will only have to pay 2l., and I will give you a letter"; I said I thought it would not suit me so well—he said, "I have a brother there; I have influence"—I declined to go there, and he then

said, "You will pay me the 5l., as I have a percentage from the Government; 1' I told him I had noticed that nothing was said about paying the money in the form—he said, "Well, I can do nothing in it without the papers and the money; meet me to-morrow morning at my office in Park-street"—previous to my coming away he said, "By-the-by, it will be better to meet me between 1 and 2 o'clock, when the clerks go to lunch at Story's Hotel"; I was to meet him there—I went about a quarter before 1 o'clock, and had my marriage certificate and my wife's certificate—I said I could only raise him 1l., which I gave him; he said it was all d—d stuff, and he could do nothing without the remainder of the money, because he had got so many parties their approval and shipping orders, and they had never paid him the money—on 5th Nov. I went to his private house at Woolwich; I paid him 30s., and he gave me a new form—he told me it must be sent directly, as he was going to Wales; I filled it up, and sent it down to his house by post on 8th Nov.—this is the first form (looking at it) that I sent into Park-street; I got a refusal answer to this—this other is the form which I obtained from the prisoner, and sent him by post filled up—I had given him at Storey's-gate, and 30s. at Woolwich, because he told me he was authorised to take the to obtain my approval and embarkation orders—if he had not told me he was authorised, I should not have parted with my money; most decidedly not; I work too hard for it—I believed he was authorised by Government—on 12th Nov. I went to him again, and he told me I was passed, and that I must go directly—he told me he had my approval order, and everything ready for me, and I must go directly; I told him I was not ready—he got up and walked about the room, and said, "If you don't go it is not my fault, mind that"—I told him I would be ready when I obtained my orders, and he said, "Send the remainder of the money by Learmond; it will save your losing time"; I sent 2l. 10s. on 13th Nov.—I said to Learmond, "Here is 2l. 10s., don't part with that till you get my orders"—it was in the belief that the defend-ant had the orders, that I sent the money—I parted with everything, and sold every individual thing during that week, because he told me I was to go early in Dec.—I was not able to get my passage, and have never got any of my money back.

Prisoner. Q. Do Learmond and you work together? A. Yes, in various parts; it is all for one employer—when I went to you, you took up one of the forms and said, "A sawyer; you must be eligible, because it states so in the form"—you did not say there must be some mistake in my application; you laughed, and said there were so many applications, 15,000 or 16,000, there must be some refusals—I did not tell you I was ineligible, because I had worked at some machinery—I was not at that time aware that Learmond and others had applied to you; I was induced to come to you, because Thompson had worked there, and when I received my refusal order, many men spoke to me, and it was in consequence of that I went to ask advice—I knew nothing of you, I naturally thought you were a gentleman connected with Park-street, as you said that your office was there—I swear that you told me the first time that you bad an office in Park-street—you said, "At my office in Park-street," and as I was coming away you said it would be convenient to me to meet you at my dinner hour, and as the clerks went to lunch about 1 o'clock—I did not understand that the money I paid you was for your services—the second time you told me you were going to Wales immediately—you said you would inquire at the office the reason I did not go out—you told me that money was to be paid to

Government for my embarkation order, and you told me you had a per centage, and you were authorised to take the money for Government, because I pointed out the law on the paper—you told me when I brought the papers to Story's-gate that you could do nothing without the money, as so many had gone away without paying, and you mentioned the name of one—I remember coming to you, and you giving me a note to go to Park-street—that was on Sunday, the 26th Nov.—it was directed to Mr. Baynes, Esq.

COURT. Q. Did you take it to the person to whom it was directed? A. Yes, I did.

Prisoner. Q. Can you read? A. Yes; I think "W. Baynes, Esq." was on it—I remember you directing me to meet you at the Captain's Room at the Royal Exchange the next day—that was after I had taken the note—I recollect your stating that you had received a note from Park-street in reply; you showed it me—I did not read it—you read it to me, but you held your hand over the bottom.

COURT. Q. Did you afterwards read that note? A. Yes, on Sunday evening, the 3rd Dec.

Prisoner. Q. Did not the note state that your case would be taken into consideration in its regular turn? A. Yes.

COURT. Q. Was this before you had given the money to Learmond? A. No; it was on the 3rd Dec. I saw that note.

Prisoner. Q. Do you remember what I stated to you about my having got into a mess? A. When you came out of the Captain's room, you pulled a note out of your pocket, and it was sealed with a key—you said, "Do you know what this means?"—I said,"Secrecy, I suppose"—you said, "A d—pretty mess you got me in yesterday at the office; you keep as that key denotes next time, and keep yourself quiet"—I said if the key was turned, it would open—I said I did not know what mess I had got you in, what mess I had got you in was your own fault—you opened the letter and read it out to me, but there was so much traffic that I could not hear what it was—I told you I had reason to believe the note was a forgery, and you opened the note and showed me the postmark, and said, "Can there be any forgery in that?"—I said, "No, that is all right"—it was dated the 29th; I believe the postmark was the 30th.

Q. Did you not say, "If I have got you into a scrape it is all the fault of that little man, Mr. Baynes, for I took care to call him out to know that his name was Baynes, before I gave him your note?" A. No, I did not—you said, "I have done wrong in sending you to that fool, Baynes; I ought to have sent you to Bailey, for he has got your papers, and I will make him tremble"—you told me to be particular and give the note to Mr. Baynes—I did not tell you at the Royal Exchange that I had called Mr. Baynes out.

Q. Do you swear solemnly that you did not tell me that you were so particular that you called him out and inquired whether he was Mr. Baynes before you gave him the note? A. I asked him if he was Mr. Baynes, and he said he was, before I gave him the note—I do not know the gentleman's name—I think Mr. Kent received the note out of Mr. Baynes' hand, and then Mr. Cooper, and they all came round and read the note—Mr. Cooper and them advised me, after they had read the note, to get my money back, for you had no influence whatever—I told you on the 3rd Dec. that you had no authority whatever to obtain me a passage—you said you had—I said I had learned from Park-street that you had no authority.

COURT. Q. What did he say to that? A. He went on a great deal, and said, "To show you that I have authority I will show you this"—he opened

a portfolio, and produced a note which he read, but what it contained I do not know—that was on the rd Dec.—he said it came from Mr. Bishop, and it had all our names down—he said, "You see I have got all your names down who have applied at Park-street"—he read, he said, "To show you that I have authority I will read my brief"—he said the note came from Park-street, and they were surprised he was collecting emigrants at Woolwich, when he ought to have been at his post in Wales.

Prisoner. Q. Did I read a reply to that letter? A. You read a good many papers over—I remember your saying that was your reply, and you said you would fetch us in a cab—you said Mr. Kent had been down on Saturday night and brought you that letter—I did not seek your assistance as the others had done—you said on the first occasion that I was to pay you 5l., as you had a per centage from Government for obtaining emigrants.

COURT. Q. You gave Learmond directions not to part with your money without he got your order? A. I did—I would not have sent that 2l. 10s. by Learmond unless the defendant had told me that he had got my orders—I should not have sent that, nor have parted with my own.

COURT to ARCHIBALD LEARMOND. Q. How came you to part with this 2l. 10s.? A. I said, "Here is s. from Mr. Seamer, and he told me I was not to part with it without I got his approval"—I told him Seamer had told me not to part with the money without he gave me the order—he said, "That is all right; I have not time to write an acknowledgment for the money, but I will send it tomorrow the first thing"—he had got the money before that—he said, "You must give me the money before I can give you the approval order," as he had been taken in so often—he did not represent that he had got the approval, but that he could not get it till he had got the money.

Q. What were the words he said? A. He shuffled it off in this way—he did not come to any conclusion about giving me the order—I told him Seamer had desired me not to part with the money till I had got the order—he said, "The orders are all right, he shall have them," but he did not say when—I parted with the money on that.

Prisoner. As I would not work for nothing? Witness. Yes.

COURT. Q. Did he tell you he had not got the orders, or that he had the orders, but would not give them to you A. He did not give me any positive answer—he said, "I must have the money before I deliver up the orders"—I am sure he made use of that expression.

Prisoner. You put the. s. in my hand, and said, "Here is Seamer's money, give me his approval order." Witness. I told you, you had consented to give this order as soon as I brought down the a—you told; me you could not get the order till I gave the money, as you would not work for nothing.

  SARAH LEE GREENWOOD HALES (examined by the prisoner). I remember coming to the Royal Exchange on one occasion, and your making a remark that Seamer had got you into a mess—I do not remember Seamer saying, "It was not my fault"—I stood on one side, you having told me you would speak to me in a few minutes—I remember you had a letter in your hand—I do not remember your reading that letter to Seamer—there were many gentlemen there, and I was the only female—I was confused at the time—I do not remember Seamer making any remark or saying anything about Mr. Baynes.

  RICHARD BELL COOPER . I am the chief clerk of the Australian Department, in the Emigration Office; the object of the institution is to send out

certain persons on cheaper terrace than they can emigrate themselves—we have certain restrictions respecting persons who emigrate; Seamer would not be eligible, country sawyers only are, and he had worked at the City Saw Mills; Seamer's application was to go to New South Wales—here is one of the regulations which was found in the prisoner's lodgings—the emigrant must be of those callings most in demand, which, at present, are country mechanics, such as masons, sawyers, wheelwrights, and gardeners; a sawyer in the City Saw Mills would not be eligible—I know the prisoner; on 3rd Oct. he was appointed an agent for collecting emigrants for the county of Carnarvon; he had no authority whatever to procure emigrants from Woolwich; his authority reached to Merionethshire, but would not reach to Woolwich—he applied to be appointed to select emigrants, and this answer was sent him: "Sir, with reference to your application for the appointment of selecting agent, I am directed to state that the Board will be happy to avail themselves of your services for selecting emigrants on the terms inclosed; the district within which your operations are to be carried on is the county of Carnarvon, &c.,"—(A copy of the regulations was here read, relating to the qualifications of persons intending to emigrate. The instructions to agents was also read; by the 10th rule of which the agent was directed on no account to promise a passage to any one, but to warn applicants that the fact of filling up the forms conferred no claims whatever to a free passage; the 16th rule directed that no agent should canvass for or select emigrants out of his own district; and by the 17th, he was forbidden to receive any fee or remuneration from any person except the Commissioners, in respect of the emigrants he might select.)—The prisoner had no connection with the office, except for the county of Carnarvon—he did not reside or have any office in Park-street—he had no right to receive money from any emigrant, he was expressly forbidden to do so—I returned from leave of absence about the end of Sept., and as soon as I returned I had the account taken, and the number of persons on our books at that time was something under 3,000, not 15,000—supposing any approval order had been given to Seamer, I should have known it—I am able to say, on my oath, that no order for embarkation or approval had been given to him—I am the person who would know if any such had come.

COURT. Q. Could an order for embarkation or approval have issued from your office without yourself, or some of the gentlemen who are here now, knowing it? A. They must have known it—the date of the defendant's appointment was the 3rd of Oct.—some of these transactions began before he was appointed, and some after—he was desired to go to Wales, but from time to time we received excuses that he was not able to go.

  CHARLES CHURCH BAILEY re-examined. The prisoner had an appointment for Carnarvon—I heard he was not gone, and I said to him that it was very desirable that he should go and attend to his duty—he said that he was going in a few days—he had no authority to act for Woolwich as an agent—he had no right to receive money—I believe no approval order was issued for Seamer—he had been refused, and no approval order was afterwards issued.

  WALTER BAYNES . I am a clerk in the Emigration Office. I know the prisoner—this letter is his handwriting—(read: "Dear Baynes,—The bearer, John Seamer, is the man I spoke to you about, whose papers I inclose. Will you let him go as soon as possible?")—this letter was brought to me by Seamer—the prisoner had never spoken to me about Seamer.

Prisoner. Q. Do you remember addressing a note to me? A. Yes; I

believe I can recollect what the contents were: "Sir,—I do not recollect ever having spoken to you about Seamer, or any other emigrant If the man has applied, the case will be treated in the usual manner, and in its turn"—that, to the best of my belief, was every word in the note.

  CHARLES BISHOP . I am a clerk in the Emigration Office. No approval order has passed through my hands for Seamer—I know of nothing of the kind.

  FORRESTER KENT . I am a clerk in the Emigration Office. Seamer has not had any approval order.

Prisoner. Q. Are you aware whether any persons proceeded to Australia through my agency? A. I am aware that two or three persons whom you recommended, whose cases were brought forward, have gone out; I do not remember how many—I remember Thompson—I remember a Mr. Taylor going—I remember George Hibden and his family going—I believe a man of the name of Collins has gone—I merely know from inspecting the office books that they are gone—I remember a man named Ellis going.

MR. BALLANTINE. Q. Were they recommended by him? A. Some of them were—he was considered as a private gentleman—it was known that his brother held an influential situation in Adelaide—the defendant had no office in the Emigration Office in Park-street—no approval of Seamer had passed through that office—the defendant had no right to obtain money in the name of the office—I believe he has never accounted at the office, or handed over any money that he has received.

Prisoner's Defence. My lord, I stand before you under the greatest disadvantage; in the first place, my case has been placed since the last Session in the hands of a solicitor, and I was under the impression and informed that my brief and the whole of my case has been in the hands of Mr. Clark-son, and I was further informed that Mr. Ballantine and Mr. Clarkson had agreed that my case should come on this day; I paid no attention to this matter, resting sure I was in good hands, I gave myself no concern, but to my great astonishment I was brought up on Monday morning without a brief, or anything, and told that my trial was put off till this day. The witness has stated that he remarked to me when he brought the form filled up, that he was ineligible on account of the children, and that I told him he had passed; how was it possible for me to tell him that when he knew that the case had not gone up to Park-street? to him, and to every man who applied to me, I gave them the Government form, stating the regulations on which they can be conveyed; they are there informed that they are not to pay any money to any one; they! are informed that no person has any power or authority to grant or promise a passage, except the Commissioners, and they are not to give up their business till they have received the approval of the Commissioners; every man who applied to me was in possession of that; I was cautious in pointing it out; I asked them all if they could read and write, and they had days to look at the form and study, and read it, and therefore they had sense enough to know whether they were doing right in coming to me; I was at the dockyard one day, when a man of the name of Thompson came to me, and said, "I know you are very well connected in Australia; there is one of our men who wishes very much to go out; he is a hardworking man, will you be kind enough to try and get him out? his name is Neale"; I said, "I have no means of getting him out, but if he goes to the Commissioners' Office no doubt he will go"; this man came to me on several occasions, and I said the first time I was in town I would inquire at the Emigration Office; I went and spoke to some one; I have

no idea who, and I obtained a form and gave it to this man Neale, and I said, "If you will fill it up, if you are eligible, you will go out"; it went to Park-street, and he got an order; for this I received no remuneration; it never entered my head; a few weeks after, Thompson came to me at my lodgings, and said, "I want to speak to you particularly; my brother and three shopmates are very anxious to go out to Australia"; I said, "What nonsense are you talking? if a man has not money to pay, let him go to the Emigration Office"; he said, "They would give you 5l., if you could get them off"; he went away, and he came again, and said the men could not leave their work, and they knew if I would undertake it, I could get them off, and they would give me 5l. a piece; I said I would consider it; I considered whether I was justified in acting as an agent for these persons, and I spoke to others about it, and asked their opinion whether I could act as an agent; the person came a second time, and said, "Will you do it?" I said, "Bring the men here to me," and he said, "Very well"; his brother, Daniel Thompson, Chamberlain, and another came; they said they wished to go as soon as they possibly could; this, I think, was in the early part of Aug.; I had no form, I had nothing of the kind; I went to Park-street, and asked them to give me three forms; these were given, and I brought them down, and gave them to the men.; I desired them to fill them up, and bring them to me, or take them to Park-street; they brought them to me; I told them to take them to Park-street; they took them, and in a few days they came and told me they had received approval orders, and they brought me 2l. 10s., and in a few days they received their embarkation "orders; a few days after Taylor brought me his boy, who had been thrown on his hands; he had been: to school, and they were desirous to take him; I came and spoke to Mr. Kent, and he let me have another order; this gained great notoriety; they knew on what terms these persons had gone, and they all came to me from Camden-town and the different suburbs; they all came to me, knowing the advantage they would have in coming to me; knowing that they would get there for 2l.; this was the reason why so many persons sought me; when Hales came to me, he came with Thompson, and he must have had conversation with him, and he must have known what he had said; I said, "I am not going to run about for you without I am paid for it"; he then gave me., 1l., as be states to you, and he said he would leave that; I said, "I don't want any more money till you get your orders"; in case of any one not going whom I apply for, I return their money; Hales states that he was not to pay me till he received his approval order, and then only a portion, and the remainder when he got his embarkation order; this was my own proposal; this shows that no felonious intention was in my mind; from the confidence which these persons had in me, I might have obtained from them and the numerous persons who applied, a vast amount of money had I chosen to act fraudulently; I had every possible means of leaving the country, and going where I thought proper—having been in the earlier part of my life in the Royal Navy, I had volunteered for the Black Sea, the ships were going out day after day; I might have lined my pockets pretty well, and joined one of the ships in the Mediterranean, or the Black Sea; if I were desirous of remaining at home, my residence was in Wales where my mother and the whole of my family reside; I was anxious to go there and retire for a short while, and then go to the Mediterranean; the whole of our family are known in Carnarvon and Monmouthshire; under these circumstances, I applied to the Commissioners to appoint me their agent there; if I had designed to defraud these men, it is not likely should have applied

to the Commissioners; I must hare known it would eventually have come to their knowledge; Learmond said to me, "Mr. Maturin, you have always behaved to me as a gentleman; I am perfectly satisfied with what you hare done"; Osborn went with me there, and he expressed himself satisfied; another man was found ineligible, and he said he would like to go to some other place, and afterwards he said he would not go at all; I said, "Very well; I must return your money; I will not retain any man's money that I do not do the business for"; Learmond gave me 1l., and I never saw him again till I was taken; Hales states that I took out a red memorandum book, and told him that Bailey or Bishop had passed him, and when Mr. Pelham held up the only book that was found in my possession, he said that was not the book, it was a red memorandum book that I read to him; now I will prove that I never had such a book in my possession; he stated that Thompson paid me 2l., and subsequently he denied that he said so; afterwards he said that he meant Learmond and Hindes; it is very odd that Thompson should have been there the same day, and yet they should have been there separately; he knows very well that he had only paid 1l., and on a subsequent occasion he gave me another pound, and that was given me to pay my expenses, and from these persons I received no other sum whatever, neither have I demanded any; when the forms were brought to me they all stated that they did not want to go till Feb., 1855; I said, "What do you come to me now for, when you don't want to go till February? there the forms must lie; I will put them in at the proper time"; I presume that would have been in the latter end of October; I therefore retained the applications till I considered it was a fitting period to send them in; during a conversation I had with one of the officers of the Emigration Office, I said, "If applications are sent in, what is the usual time they come in?" he said, "It depends very much on the number of applications on the books"; I said, "Persons intending to go in February, when should they come in?" he said, "In about six weeks' time"; I said, "Very well; there are two persons I wish to send out"; Hales states in his evidence that he came to me in consequence of what he heard from Thompson, who told him I could send him out; he says he did not know in what manner I could send him, and that I did not represent that I belonged to the Emigration Office—with respect to the amount offered to me, when they offered me 20l. I told them all I required was to remunerate me for my loss of time and the expenses I was at; I cannot recollect all the conversation, and I am perfectly certain they cannot; with respect to Seamer's evidence, he acknowledges that it was in conesquence of what he beard from Thompson that he came to me; now he had applied to Park-street, he knew very well the proper form to go through, he had gone through it, and was unsuccessful; he knew that his other shopmates had got away, and he came to me to obtain my services; it is not likely he would have come to me, a perfect stranger, to get him over to Australia, or to give him advice, without he had known or imagined that I had some influence, and if he paid me I would get over that difficulty; he states that I said, "You know what you will have to pay for going to Sydney, 5l. here, and 10l. after you get there"; I said, "You are a very foolish man; you had better go to Adelaide, that is a registered colony; you would do better there"; he said, No, he would rather go where he said; I told him there must be some mistake, which I believed to be so, because on the face of the form it states that sawyers are eligible, and I now request that the Jury may see the form; he says that I said, "I will do nothing for you unless" you pay me, for I have got so many off who have not paid me"; now having

told him that, how could he believe that what I received was on the part of Government; these men came to me because they had an idea that I could get them off; when persons applied to me, I said I would inquire for them; I took Seamer's case, because he was out of work, and he said he would be very much obliged to me to get him there; I thought he was a most eligible person; I read the form, and told him that there must be some mistake in his mode of application; I said, "Meet me at Storey's-gate, I will make some inquiries, bring your certificates of your marriage, your birth, and your trade"; he came and spoke to me, and put something in my hand; I could not tell you what it was, for I put it in my pocket with other money; I do not know what it was; I said, "Very well, I will make some inquiries; I will give you a new form"; I gave it him; I told him I was going to Wales, and the sooner he sent it me the better; he sent it by post, but I was taken ill, and was attended by a doctor; that was the reason the application did not go up; as to my saying that I had his approval order, I deny it; he must have been aware that I had not got that order; he knew that I sent a note to Mr. Baynes, and he heard the reply of Mr. Baynes to me, where he says the case would be taken in turn; I intended to have taken his papers in, but I was ill, and not able to do so; when he sent the money by Learmond, I received it; I said I would not get his orders; I would not work for nothing; I was perfectly justified as a private individual to act as an agent for any one that came to me; if a person applies to you, and you think you are able to perform the service, you merely receiving enough to pay your expenses, on an understanding that they are afterwards to pay you for the service that you agree to perform for them, have you not a right to do so; I was not in the employ or payment of the Emigration Commission, nor have I ever received one farthing from them; I had a perfect right to act in the county of Kent; I had been appointed an agent in Wales, but I bad never gone there; I will prove that after my appointment, I gave instructions that no more persons could apply to me on the subject of emigration; I trust you will see that I had no fraudulent intention; thirty-five or forty persons have gone out through me, and they have gone on with their work till the time they were to go, and they are on their way to Australia; Mr. Kent has acknowledged, that several persons have gone out through my recommendation; it has been stated that I have in several cases returned their money; Hales never demanded his money from me, nor did Seamer; all they desired was to get away; when they came to me that Sunday, I read to them the letters from the Board of Commissioners, and my reply; I said, "You see the situation I am in, I can do nothing more, but I am determined to take every man of you to Park-street to see the Commissioners"; that was my intention, but I could not; I was sitting at dinner on Friday, and was taken by the officers; the Commissioners considered that I had acted a fraudulent part if I had received that money, but I stated on what terms I received it; I would have returned the money if I had had time, but I was not permitted to do it; I have been kept here two months; I will now leave my case entirely in your hands, if I have been in error or thoughtless I have borne punishment enough for it; but as for any idea of defrauding one of these men, such a thought never entered my mind; I have been in her Majesty's service, and suffered as no man ever suffered, in the West Indies, and other places; my thought and ideas were of a very different nature to this; could I have obtained access to my papers, I could have shown you what has been my situation and my intentions; when my country required my

service, I volunteered to go to service again in the Mediterranean; I obtained this agency to go on with till I went in the spring; I intended to go to Wales to my mother, to stay there till I went away; I trust you will give me every justice, though a great deal of the truth has been concealed from you; though you can see that as Learmond, and Seamer, and Hales gave their evidence, there was a degree of vindictiveness, I believe, to excite compassion on the part of the public; I have nothing more to say, I throw myself on your hands; I firmly believe that whatever verdict you give will be according to conscience, and whether you return me guilty or not guilty, it is the will of God, and I am prepared to meet it.

  ELIZA BARR . I reside with my mother—I remember your coming to reside at our place, about eleven months ago I think—I remember Mr. Thompson applying to you on the subject of emigration—he came to you to get his brother to Australia—I remember your saying you had no influence, the only way in which you could assist them was in a private manner—I know there were a great number came—some of them are gone—you said that those persons had paid you various sums of money for your expenses—I remember your stating that you would consult your friends whether you could assist them—you made no secret of the manner in which you did it—I had no idea that you were acting fraudulently in anything you were doing—I had no idea of it—there were so many came to you—I do not remember any of them by name—I am not aware of your returning money to any persons who had paid any—I have heard you repeat that you had no power or authority with the Emigration Committee—I have let emigrants in once or twice when they have come—I remember Hales and Learmond—I remember the name of Seamer—I do not know the person—I recollect Hales coming one Sunday evening when you was absent—he said he heard that you had no influence.

COURT to ARCHIBALD LEARMOND. Q. What day was it you went and gave him the 2l. 10s.? A. On the 13th Nov.—I am sure of that.

GUILTY on Seamer's case only. Aged 32.—Recommended to mercy by the Jury on account of his being in custody so long a time.— Judgment Respited.