Browse - Central Criminal Court

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805.
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<interp inst="def1-805-18771022" type="surname" value="MEIKLEJOHN"/>
<interp inst="def1-805-18771022" type="given" value="JOHN"/>
<hi rend="largeCaps">JOHN MEIKLEJOHN</hi> (38)</persName>,
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<interp inst="def2-805-18771022" type="age" value="37"/>
<interp inst="def2-805-18771022" type="surname" value="DRUSCOVICH"/>
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<hi rend="largeCaps">NATHANIEL DRUSCOVICH</hi> (37)</persName>,
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<interp inst="def3-805-18771022" type="age" value="43"/>
<interp inst="def3-805-18771022" type="surname" value="PALMER"/>
<interp inst="def3-805-18771022" type="given" value="WILLIAM"/>
<hi rend="largeCaps">WILLIAM PALMER</hi> (43)</persName>,
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<interp inst="def4-805-18771022" type="age" value="60"/>
<interp inst="def4-805-18771022" type="surname" value="CLARKE"/>
<interp inst="def4-805-18771022" type="given" value="GEORGE"/>
<hi rend="largeCaps">GEORGE CLARKE</hi> (60)</persName>,
<hi rend="italic">and</hi>
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<interp inst="def5-805-18771022" type="age" value="35"/>
<interp inst="def5-805-18771022" type="surname" value="FROGATT"/>
<interp inst="def5-805-18771022" type="given" value="EDWARD"/>
<hi rend="largeCaps">EDWARD FROGATT</hi> (35)</persName>,
<hi rend="italic">were indicted for</hi>
<rs id="t18771022-805-offence-1" type="offenceDescription">
<interp inst="t18771022-805-offence-1" type="offenceCategory" value="miscellaneous"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-805-offence-1" type="offenceSubcategory" value="pervertingJustice"/> Unlawfully conspiring with
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<interp inst="t18771022-name-354" type="surname" value="KURR"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-354" type="given" value="WILLIAM"/>William Kurr</persName>,
<persName id="t18771022-name-355">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-355" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-355" type="surname" value="BENSON"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-355" type="given" value="HARRY"/>Harry Benson</persName>, and others to obstruct, defeat, and pervert the due course of public justice.
<hi rend="italic">Other counts</hi> varying the manner of stating the charge.</rs> 

<hi rend="smallCaps">THE ATTORNEY GENERAL, THE SOLICITOR GENERAL, MR. GORST</hi>, Q.C.,
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. COWIE</hi>,
<hi rend="italic">and</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. BOWEN</hi>
<hi rend="italic">conducted the Prosecution.</hi> 

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-356" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-356" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-356" type="surname" value="WILLIAMS"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-356" type="given" value="MONTAGU"/>MR. MONTAGU WILLIAMS</persName> </hi>,
<hi rend="italic">with</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. WALTER BALLANTINE</hi>,
<hi rend="italic">appeared for Meiklejohn;</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. STRAIGHT</hi>
<hi rend="italic">for Druscovitch;</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. BESLEY</hi>,
<hi rend="italic">with</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. J. P. GRAIN</hi>,
<hi rend="italic">for Palmer;</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. EDWARD CLARKE</hi>,
<hi rend="italic">with</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. CHARLES MATHEWSM</hi>,
<hi rend="italic">for Clarke; and</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. COLLINS</hi>, Q.C.,
<hi rend="italic">with</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. HORACE AVORY</hi>
<hi rend="italic">and</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. HENRY KISCH</hi>
<hi rend="italic">for Froggatt.</hi> 

<hi rend="italic">The defendants, under the advice of their Counsel, declined to plead, on the ground that Counsel had not had an opportunity of seeing the indictment. The Court therefore directed a plea of</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">NOT GUILTY</hi>
<hi rend="italic">to be entered.</hi> 

<hi rend="smallCaps">THE ATTORNEY GENERAL'S</hi>
<hi rend="italic">opening occupied the first day.</hi> 

<hi rend="italic">Thursday, Oct. 25th.</hi> 

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-357" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-357" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-357" type="surname" value="KURR"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-357" type="given" value="WILLIAM"/>WILLIAM KURR</persName> </hi>. I was tried at the last April Sessions of this Court for forgery, and convicted—I made the acquaintance of the prisoner Meiklejohn in Nov., 1872, at the Angel Hotel, Islington—I knew he was a detective—I was a racing man—Murray was then with me—he was a racing man—Meiklejohn said "What are you, I don't take you for a flat, what are you?"—I said "I am a bookmaker"—he said "Where do you make a book?"—I said "In Scotland and in the north of Ireland"—he said "Have you seen that notice in the
<hi rend="italic">Times</hi> to-day?"—I said "Yes"—he said to Murray "I will bet a fiver that that notice is not right," meaning "is not correct"—I nodded to Murray to induce him to bet—he asked me if I knew Dumblane, I said yes—he said "My home is there"—I said
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What have you come up here for?"—he said "I have come to get some Swedish bonds back that some people at the confidence game have got"—he said that he had to go and see a man named Charley Scanes to get some information about it from him—I said "Will Charley Scanes give you any information about it?"—Meiklejohn said "If he does not I will give him a drag"—that means three months' imprisonment—he left me then and I followed him—in half an hour he returned and told me he knew a man named Davis who was the manager to Peddie, the adver
<lb/>tising list man—he said he could get the list of all Peddie's clients, and that he would see me about it to-morrow and have Davis there—he asked me how he should communicate with me—I told him to write to Murray—he said he would—on the following day Meiklejohn introduced me to Davis and said "Davis will make a good manager to your firm"—I said I was not satisfied with Davis—after leaving Davis Meiklejohn said "I should like to serve that man Peddie out, he is a man that has deserted his wife and family, why don't you start in his name? I was the first man to discover that the Betting Act did not extend to Scotland"—I said "I thought I was the first man to discover that"—he said "How is that?"—I said "I sent a person down to Glasgow to take counsel's opinion about it, and to insert an advertisement about it in the
<hi rend="italic">Sports
<lb/>man</hi> "—he said "Oh, you understand advertisements"—I said "Oh yes"—he said "Why don't you start in London?"—I said "If I started in London the Treasury would prosecute me"—he said "I can tell you how you can avoid that"—I said "How"—he said "Open two offices, one in the City and one in our district; if the warrant is issued in the City they cannot execute it in our district"—I said "That would only apply to a warrant issued to arrest persons on the premises"—he said "Oh no, any warrant, they cannot execute it in our district"—I said "Give me one of your cards, will you?"—he said "Do not make any bad use of it"—I said "What do you mean?"—I cannot tell you what has become of that card, it is five years ago—it had on it "Mr. Sergeant Meikle
<lb/>john, Scotland Yard," or "J. Meiklejohn, Sergeant of Police, Scotland Yard"—something to that effect—he was then a sergeant in the police—I established a betting agency in Edinburgh in the name of Philip Gard
<lb/>ner and Co. from February till April or May, 1873—two of my interviews with Meiklejohn took place at the Angel and one at Temple Bar, when he gave me the card, but we went to a public-house to see Davis—I saw Meiklejohn again at the Nag's Head, Holloway—he produced a printed police bill from his pocket and said "Do you know anything of these people; you have been making a book in Scotland, I should think you. ought to know some of these men"—I said I did not, but if he gave me the bill I would inquire—the bill referred to myself as Philip Gardner and Co.—about a fortnight after that I went to America and stayed six months, partly in consequence of seeing that bill, and partly to start a' betting agency in New York—a day or two after arriving in London on my return Meiklejohn sent a man named Burke to me, and in conse
<lb/>quence of a communication from Burke I went to 1, Mile Street, South. Lambeth, where I found Meiklejohn was living—Meiklejohn said "I can settle that affair for you in Scotland, and I suppose Burke has told you that I shall want 100 quid," meaning 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>.—I said "If you can settle it I will give you 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>.," and an appointment was made for the next day, when I handed Burke 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. at a public-house near Meiklejohn's house—
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I was not present when the 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. was given to Meiklejohn—I cannot say whether I heard from Meiklejohn that he had received it, but the arrange
<lb/>ment was made that I was to give him 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>.—I said "How am I to know that this thing is stopped?"—Meiklejohn said "I will write down to the police at Edinburgh and show you their letter"—that conversation took place within five minutes of my handing the 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. to Burke—I asked Meiklejohn, "How am I to know that this thing is stopped?"—he said "I will write down to the police at Edinburgh and show you their reply"—that was the same night after the money had been paid—I knew a warrant was out against me, and the subject was mentioned in the con
<lb/>versation—Meiklejohn said "They were nearly collaring you at Tippe-rary; they telegraphed over to Ireland, believing that you were there"—I had been in Ireland after leaving Edinburgh, in consequence of the warrants I supposed were out against me—after this conversation with Meiklejohn I did not keep in hiding, but walked about as usual—I never was arrested in consequence of the Edinburgh transaction—I next saw Meiklejohn in November, 1873, within about a month of the conversation I have last mentioned—I saw him at his own house in Mile Street—I have seen him at several places; at the Silver Cross, for instance—I saw him three or four times from November to the end of the year—when I wanted to communicate with him I went to Scotland Yard; but it was subsequently arranged that I should go to the Silver Cross, and send the potman there with a note to Meiklejohn—in the month of June, 1874, I paid Meiklejohn 200
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. in all; 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. was sent by post, and the other I took to him—the first 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. was sent on the 13th. and the other I gave him on the 17th—that was for giving me information while I was in Glasgow, where I had opened a spurious betting agency in the name of Adamson—it was called "The Discretionary Investment Society"—Meiklejohn was to let me know when they received any complaints at Scotland Yard—that society lasted about three months—I established another betting agency in London in the name of Archer and Co., in Adam Street, Strand—that was on 31st July, 1874—that lasted about four days—it came to an end 'because one of the clerks was arrested by Druscovich and taken to Scotland Yard; that was a man named Harry Street—the firm con
<lb/>sisted of Street, myself, and Benson—after that the firm was carried on at Glasgow—I was sent to Brighton for about three days—the same firm Archer and Co. was carried on there, only it was called the Paris Discretionary, translated into French—in Nov. I paid Meiklejohn 500
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>.—in speaking of these dates I am speaking from memory this is a letter that I received from Meiklejohn—(
<hi rend="italic">Read</hi>: "Nov. 16, 1874. Dear Bill,—I should like to see you to-morrow night at my place before 9 p.m. I have a letter from Glasgow. I now go on duty from 11 p.m. till 5 a.m. Wire what time I can expect you.") I was to wire to him to fix an appointment—there was no arrangement between us to telegraph to each other—this is also a letter from Meiklejohn. (
<hi rend="italic">Read</hi>: "Nov. 17th, 1874, Dear Bill,—Rather important news from the North. Tell H. S. and the young one to keep themselves quiet, and in the event of a smell stronger than now, they must be ready to scamper out of the way. I should like to see you as early as possible, and bring this note with you under any circumstances. I fancy the brief is out for some of you. If not, it will be. So you must keep a sharp look out.") I don't know who "the young one" referred to in that letter is—by "the brief" is meant a
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220081"/>
warrant—it is a sort of slang term for warrant—at that time we had just discontinued Archer and Co. in Glasgow—there was no warrant there in respect of that, but the firm was discontinued—this letter of 18th Nov. is also Meiklejohn's. (
<hi rend="italic">Read:"</hi> Wednesday afternoon. Dear Bill,—Yours to hand. I saw H. H. W. at Cannon Street at three p.m., and he is going to send me some orders for the theatre. If you are at his office at 11 or 10.30, and remain some few minutes, you will be sure to see him. He comes there at eleven o'clock every morning, and when I saw him he was going to the office. I should like you to see him first, and then I could keep him up to the mark. If you cannot see him to-morrow leave word for me at S. X. and I will write him and make an appointment. Why not go to the Vic Theatre to-night, and you will be sure to find him?" This is also Meiklejohn's—it is addressed William Kurr, Esq., Thursday evening, 19th Nov., 1874. "Dear Bill,—I have written to H. H. W. to meet me at the Silver Cross to-morrow at three p.m., and that I should wait for him 30 minutes. You and Bill had better see me at the Red Lion, Parliament Street, at 2.30, before seeing him, then matters can be arranged as to meeting. Should he not come then I can tell you when you can see him at his own private residence, but he is sure to come." I can't give the date at which I gave the 500
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. to Meikle john, only that it was about the first week in Nov.—that was for giving me information as to the firm of Archer and Co.—I paid it him in five Bank of England notes of 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. each—I got those notes from Burt and Co. of Cornhill, in exchange for some notes on the Bank of France—I paid them to Meiklejohn with my own hand—there was some discussion between us as to the amount—I at first said "Here is 300
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>., Jack"—he said "This won't do"—I said "What do you mean?"—he said "It is not enough," and I said "Here is 500
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>."—I had made money by the speculation of Archer and Co., perhaps about 8,000
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>.—I do not mean my share, the concern itself paid about that to the entire firm—the "Bill" referred to in one of the letters is Walters; he kept the Grapes public house in Red Lion Street, Holborn—Heiklejohn afterwards told me that he had purchased a house with the 500
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. I gave him, in the South Lambeth Road—this letter is in Meiklejohn's handwriting. (
<hi rend="italic">Read: "Dec.</hi> 30, 1874. Dear Bill,—Your telegram to hand. I should like to see you about a little matter to-morrow. See me here to-morrow if you can, if not send a telegram to S. X. where I can meet you at or about 5 or 6 with Bill if he can come. Just say whether you will come here or meet me.") "S. X." means The Silver Cross—there was an arrangement made at the end of December, 1874, with Benson, Walters, and Murray, for bringing out the Society for Insurance against Losses on the Turf—that firm was established at Gresham House and at 25, Moorgate Street—I first met Benson about February, 1874—this new firm continued for about three months, at the expiration of which period Walters and Murray were arrested, committed for trial, released on bail, and absconded—this letter is in Meiklejohn's writing. (
<hi rend="italic">Read</hi>: "June 27, 1875. My dear Bill,—Your letter to hand. I saw Publican, and all was right and comfortable. I saw H. on Saturday and had a long chat with him, but he seems a little hurt at my hinting to Publican that he was too intimate with B. M. Of course I told you the same. In such cases you cannot be too careful. But I do not actually think that he was wrong, only I saw them so intimate. P. has left to-day for America. I have given him some
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220082"/>
letters of introduction, and he will have a fine time of it there. How did the Old Chieftain come to speak of the countryman as a blockhead again. He must have been saying something about him again. I will try and run against B. M. and find if he has the brief you refer to. If so I will try and get it. Of course you know I have not spoken to him since B. W. came out. Send me the paper with Chieftain registered in it. If not let me have date when he was there. I will write you again soon.—I am, &c, &c. (signed) Blockhead.") I don't know what the first part of that letter refers to about H. or B. M.—I have no doubt I did know at the time—"Send me the paper with Chieftain registered in it" referred to a local paper published in the Isle of Wight announcing that Chief Inspector Clarke had arrived there at one of the hotels—"How did the Old Chieftain come to speak of the Countryman as a blockhead?"—that was in consequence of a conversation I had with Benson, and I wrote to Meiklejohn to tell him—"Chieftain" is Chief-Inspector Clark, and "Countryman" is Meiklejohn—"P. has left this day for America," that is Chief-Inspector Palmer—Meiklejohn signs himself "Blockhead," that was in consequence of what I had written to him—I can't tell who "Publican" is; it was either "Walters or Colkett, I should say—I can't remember which—they both kept public-houses—"Bill" is Bill Mitchell. a racing
<lb/>man—I think I first saw Palmer in July, 1872—I first saw him to speak to him, I think, about 1874—I first met him at one of the race
<lb/>courses; I can't tell which—he was in the habit of attending races in the course of his duty as an inspector of the detective department—there was a warrant out against me in respect of the Walters and Murray transac
<lb/>tion—I remember receiving a telegram, but I do not know who it was from, because I had left before, thinking there would be a warrant out against me—I went to a great number of places—I did not go abroad—I went to Glasgow among other places—in the course of 1875 I went to Switzerland with Benson—just before that I had been to Littlehampton; that would be about August—this letter (
<hi rend="italic">produced</hi>) is Meiklejohn's writing—it is addressed to me in the name of W. Gifford—the post-mark on the envelope is "Ju," which stands both for June and July—I should think it would be July—I could not say positively that this letter came out of this particular envelope—all of the letters were put by me carefully—I do not know whether any one has changed them since—as far as I know they are the same. (
<hi rend="italic">Read</hi>: "Wednesday morning. Dear Bill,—You will see from the enclosed letter that W. has sent a letter to your brother, and he is afraid that it may be opened. You had better see to it at once.") About June, 1875, I was living at that address under that name—this other letter of August, 1875, is Meiklejohn's—I was then' living at Littlehampton as Sinclair; this is addressed to Sinclair. (
<hi rend="italic">Read:</hi> Dear Bill,—Your wire to hand. Glad to hear very good news. Treasury has paid and settled up all accounts in case of W. and M., and I do not want to see or hear from them again. I will not leave here until Sunday night, and after that my address will be as before—Green Loaming, Perthshire, N.B.") W. and M. in this letter refers to Walters and Murray—that letter is also in the handwriting of Meiklejohn, and was addressed to me with the communication referred to in it as having been received by Meiklejohn from Wilson. (" Tuesday evening. Dear Bill,—You have not answered any of my last letters. I suppose you have not got them. I send you a letter which I have this morning from Wilson, from
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which you will see that he is still very friendly, and I must simply go and spend a day, or perhaps two, and have a—good lush, and that will settle B. M. as far as that is concerned. B. M. I have not seen or heard
<hi rend="italic">from</hi> since I saw him with Hay. I go on Friday night, so you had better say what you want done by return. (Signed) J. M.") (" Glasgow Police, No. 8 A, Central Police Chamber, 9th August, 1875. Dear Sir,—I re
<lb/>ceived your letter, for which I have to thank you, as it was in time for oar petition, and just what we wanted. I will be very glad to see you if you are in. Scotland this month, as I will go on my leave till the 2nd of—the next. If you see any of our friends before you come down remind me of them. Wish you and yours all manner of pleasure and good weather. I remain, yours truly, W. J. Wilson.") This correspond
<lb/>ence was shortly before I went to Switzerland—I was there a fortnight with Benson—he travelled under the name of Count Montague—when we returned he went to the Langham Hotel, I did not—I went there to see him, and on one occasion Meiklejohn went with me—Benson passed there as Yonge—up till that time I believe that Benson and Meiklejohn were not acquainted with each other—I introduced them to each other—I did not leave them alone on this particular occasion—at this time, so far as I knew, the warrant was still out against me in connection with the Walters and Murray transactions—up till this time I had not known Inspector Clarke—at that time I had in my possession a letter which Clarke had written to Walters, landlord of the Grapes public-house, Holborn—Meiklejohn gave me that letter—I learned from Benson that he was acquainted with Clarke—I took means to overhear what passed in a conversation between Benson and Clarke at the Langham—Benson occu
<lb/>pied a sitting-room, and I went into the adjoining bedroom—I knew that Clarke was coming—this was during the time that Benson was living at the Langham Hotel as Tonge, after our return from Switzerland—at that time he went on crutches, and had to be carried about—I did not hear a great deal of the conversation—all I can recollect is that Clarke said "No one will interfere with Kurr now"—I believe Clarke said "Will Kurr bring me my letter back?" or "Will Kurr send me my letter back?"—it was something with reference to the letter, but I can't tell you what it was—I wanted to hear from Clarke whether or not I was safe to walk about—I can't give a date for that nearer than the latter end of August or the commencement of Sept.—I procured this letter to be written to Clarke—Street wrote it. (
<hi rend="italic">Read</hi>: "To Mr. Chief Inspector George Clarke, Scotland Yard. Sir,—My. name having been connected most unjustly with the late turf frauds, of which I know nothing what
<lb/>ever, I should be glad to. meet you if you have any desire to see me, at any time or place you may choose to appoint. By forwarding a letter to the above address you will much oblige—Tours obediently, Wm. Kurr.") I gave the letter to Street—I do not know how he forwarded it—at the time Benson was staying at the Langham he had a French servant with him named Pierre Pionchon—Benson had at one time another servant, named either Wallace or Picard—I don't think it was Picard who was staying with him at the Langham at this time—after I had overheard this conversation at the Langham Hotel, I went and saw Clarke myself at Great College Street, Westminster—I found him near his house—I said "Good evening, Mr. Clarke, my name is William Kurr"—Clarke said "Don't you think you are a bold man to come to me when you
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know that I have got a warrant for your apprehension in my pocket?"—I said "Oh, it is all right; Yonge has told me all about it; I have come to give you back your letter"—he said "The—scamp has got a lot more letters of mine, but they all refer to information which he has given me about different things"—that remark had reference to Walters—I said "Here is your letter," and I handed him a copy of the letter—it was an imitation of the original—Clarke said "I sent that letter to Walters to get some information from him about some burglars"—I said "That letter has been photographed"—he said "Who photographed it?"—I said "1 don't know; I believe a friend of Walters's"—I said "Here is the original; that one you have got is a copy; a photograph has been taken of it, and you can say that the photograph has been taken of the forgery and not of the original," I meant in the event of the photograph being produced—these (
<hi rend="italic">produced</hi>) are the
<hi rend="italic">two</hi> letters—I made the copy. (
<hi rend="italic">Read</hi>: "Westminster, April 4, 1874. Sir,—I shall be glad if you could make it convenient to call at my house from eight to nine p.m. this day. Very important. Don't show this or bring any one with you. If you cannot come I will be at Charing Cross station at twelve noon to-morrow.") One of these is torn—the torn one is the original—I have not seen them from that time till they were produced at the police court—it was perhaps three days—at least it was a short time after the interview at the Langham that I saw Clarke and handed him those two letters—this letter dated 22nd September, 1875, is in Meiklejohn's writing. (
<hi rend="italic">Head</hi>: "22nd Sept., 1875. Dear Bill,—Enclosed you will find a letter for W., and of course you will tell your friend to take the name of Hall, so that it may correspond with my letter. I have had a long letter from Poodle, and he has written to C. last night very strongly, in effect demanding it. So you can let P. have the idea just as you think. I have written to B. M. telling him I shall not be there at the meet to-morrow, as I don't want to be dragged into the affair. And you can ask him why I am not at the meet, and then tell him it is useless for me to appear in the matter, that you can settle these matters yourselves. Say you have not seen me for 10 or 12 days; in fact, say anything you like, and tell them all s—") "Poodle" is Benson—"C" is Clarke this letter is also Meiklejohn's writing. (" Monday Afternoon. Dear Bill,—Yours to hand. No one from the factory is down or going to New
<lb/>market. I have a letter from W., asking if I knew anything for C—wich. I have written him purport of your letter, and telling him I should write you to let you know if the thing was good goods. So you can let him know by to-night's post. I cannot understand your letter as to Tommy wanting his wages and expenses. What Tommy do you mean? Do you mean Old Bill; if so, what does he want? Let me know about the horse, Argument, in time, as I want to let Power, the Old Man at Milbank, know; but I should like to be as sure as possible. He is a good pal of mine. I had a letter from Poodle this morning, in which he says that he expects a letter from Chieftain saying that the matter of mine will be settled in my favour. I simply told him the matter was settled Saturday week, and C. never intended me to get it, as he recommended D. him
<lb/>self.") The post-mark on the envelope of that letter is October 11th, 1875—the "factory" means Scotland Yard—I don't know who "W." is—it is relative to some racing transaction—oh, it would mean Wilson, of Glasgow—"Tommy" is the nickname of a clerk of mine who had com
<lb/>plained
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about his wages, which he refers to here—"Power" is the chief warder at Milbank prison—the "Chieftain" referred to is Clarke—"D". means "Davey," an inspector of Scotland Yard—the business referred to was a vacancy at Scotland Yard, caused by the death of Inspector Pay—this letter is in Meiklejohn's handwriting. (
<hi rend="italic">Read—envelope dated October</hi> 25
<hi rend="italic">th</hi>, 1875: "Sunday Evening. Dear Bill,—You must excuse us not coming this evening, but I have been so ill all day I could not come out. I have seen Bob twice here to-day, and I should like to see you to
<lb/>morrow evening at the One Tun, say sis o'clock. I shall see Von before that, and know for a certainty how things stand, yet I think you had better say nothing until I see you." The Autumn races at Brighton are held on 31st October—this letter is Meiklejohn's writing. "Saturday Night. Dear Bill,—Yours to hand. I am not going to Brighton, only Dustman and Lansdown, neither of whom know you, so there is no need for you fearing them. Have you heard from Poodle?" "120 x 20 Wizard, L'pool C." That is the odds against a horse named Wizard for the Liverpool Cup—I remember going to the Brighton races on 31st October, and Wizard tells me the year, it was 1875—"Dustman" means Druscovich—I had never spoken to Druscovich at that time—Lansdown was a sergeant of police; that is his proper name—I knew them by sight, although they did not know me—I saw them at the Brighton races—at that time I was living in Marquess Road—I lived there from about 1874 to 1877, until I was taken into custody, in my own name, William Kurr—in the year 1875 I gave Meiklejohn 150
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>., it was at the latter end of July—there was also a 10
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. note on another occasion—I first saw Drus
<lb/>covich to speak to him on 10th April, 1876—this letter is in Meiklejohn's writing. (
<hi rend="italic">Read</hi>: "December 23, 1875. Dear Bill,—Poodle in trouble again. Some one has been down, and, from the description, it seems to be like Fillister in the City. I shall see F. and find out if he has been down. P. writes and asks if you have sent me the sherry; I have written to say you have at last done so; but you promised it last July and kept it until now, so that you would get out of sending me a case of cham
<lb/>pagne, as you have done on former occasions; and I told him I should not object to fulfilling that duty this time. I shall be at home this evening at 9.30 and to-morrow evening, but will keep any appointment you may make for to-morrow.") "Poodle" there is Benson—"Fluister" is a City sergeant of police—I don't think the warrants against Walters and Murray were ever in his hands; he held a betting-house warrant issued in the City, I heard so from Fluister himself—"P." also means Poodle, that is Benson—these two letters are Meiklejohn's writing. (
<hi rend="italic">Read</hi>: "December 31, 1875. Dear Bill,—I was in the neighbourhood of Islington the other day, and saw some funeral carriages pass, and thought you might be dead, not having seen you for some time, but on inquiry I find you are about as usual, and not dead or drunk. When shall I see your old mug again?" "26th Jan., 1876. Dear Bill,—I had your letter on Friday night, and went to the One Tun on Saturday, at 12, and remained till 12.45, and the landlord told me you had been on the previous day. I am so very ill and have been so busy that I cannot say when I shall be able to see you. Yet you may write and let me know how things are going on, and what you have done with M—.") I cannot tell what the finish of the letter is—in April I saw Druscovich—I said previously on April 10th, but I now believe it to be April the 9th
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220086"/>
—I was aware from Meiklejohn that I was going to see him at Fentiman Road—Meiklejohn told me that Drusrovich had asked for the loan of 60
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>.—he said he could not do it, but Bill Kurr would—Druscovich said "Will he keep his mouth shut?"—Meiklejohn said "Oh, yea,—I always go to him if I want money. Druscovich is in a sad plight, he has got a bill to meet"—Meiklejohn said "I have told him you will lend it him. It comes nicely. It will save us both trouble. All you have to do is to lend him the money"—This ended in an appointment for next evening at the public-house in Fentiman Road—it is the only public-house in that road—I think it is the Fentiman's Arms—I said "I shall not be able to give Druscovich the money to-morrow, but I will come and see him at eight o'clock"—I went there at eight o'clock on Sunday and saw Druscovich and Meiklejohn—I said to Druscovich "Meiklejohn has told me you want to borrow 60
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>.," and Druscovich said "Yes"—I said "I will lend it to you to-morrow"—Druscovich said "Where shall I see you to-morrow?"—I said "I will meet you at the Oriental Restaurant at five o'clock"—the Oriental Restaurant is at the Blackfriars station—I gave Colkett a cheque of mine for 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. to get cashed—it was dated the 16th April, 1876, and payable to Colkett's order—it was endorsed "H. Colkett"—for that cheque I got from Colkett amongst the money sis 10
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. notes—I met Druscovich at the Oriental Restaurant in pursuance of the appointment—I am speaking from memory, but am positive about the denomination of the notes—when I met Meiklejohn and Druscovich I handed Druscovich the six 10
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. notes—Druscovich asked if I wanted any acknowledgment, and I said "No"—Meiklejohn was then present—I had a conversation with Meiklejohn in the absence of Druscovich—we had gone from the Oriental to the Ludgate Hill refreshment bar—Druscovich left us for a moment, and I said to Meiklejohn "What did Druscovich say?" He said "I did not like walking down here with Bill. Suppose we ran against old Clarke"—I said "What did you say?"—Meiklejohn said "I said 'Don't be a fool. Bill has got them all right at our place and in the City too"—I said "Did you tell him about Bailey in the City?"—Meiklejohn said "Yes; I told him about Bailey, and told him everything"—I said "I did not want you to tell him about Bailey"—he said "Oh, it don't matters a damn"—I remember nothing further—we parted at Ludgate Hill—this letter is Meiklejohn's writing. (
<hi rend="italic">Read—envelope dated 30th May</hi>: "Tuesday. Dear Bill,—I cannot be down on Thursday at Epsom. You must not for
<lb/>get me. Put me on 2
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. for Coroner, and write me that you have done so, or let me know what you are doing.") That referred to my own horse, Coroner—this is also from Meiklejohn. ("Dear Bill,—Got a letter from S. B Cresswell, Daventry, complaining that he has sent 10
<hi rend="italic">s</hi>.; also enclosing advertisement, and saying that he will come to London to prosecute if we will pay his expenses. I will inquire, and if so I will let you know. Mineral colt won the Derby, and I have ordered my suit of clothes, and the tailor has sent the bill to Henry Street. When shall I see you? I have not seen H. H. W. as yet.") Mineral colt won the Derby of 1876, run on the 31st May—this letter from Meiklejohn is enclosed in an envelope, dated June 10, 1876—("Dear Bill,—Yours to hand. Who does the horse you name belong to? What has become of Activity? Smith promised to let me know. If you get this in time let me know Your brother had better not go for any more letters. It is too hot. There
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are some there, but he had better not go. The old man has sent Andrews, and he has got the description. Be sure and let me know as early as possible the strength of this horse.") "The old man" alluded to there is Clarke—my brother, is Frederick Kurr—I suppose that alluded to some fraud that my brother and another person had been carrying on, not one of the turf frauds, I think—I don't know exactly what it refers to—it had nothing to do with me—"Andrews" is a police serjeant—I saw Clarke after September, 1875, at Epsom, and at Sandown Park races, where he was on duty as an inspector—these letters are (
<hi rend="italic">produced</hi>) in Meikle John's writing—this one with Clarke's address on was written about two days before I saw Clarke, that would be early in September, 1875—(
<hi rend="italic">Read:</hi> "Wednesday Night, 11.30 p.m. Dear Bill,—Your letter to hand. Just now the Chieftain's address is 20, Great College Street, not 17. If you have sent it you are wrong. Be sure about the horse as I am in a corner, but shall I see you and talk about Poodle? You have not written fully.") (" Wednesday morning. Dear Bill,—You will find enclosed the Chieftain's letter all right, as also one from Kramp. He is a scamp. You see his game. He wants to keep Poodle in a funk. You must not let him know I have sent his letter to you. I have not written him, and never intend to do so. When shall I have a chat to hear all news about Chieftain? Have you forgotten about the horse? Be sure to put something on, unless you send me as usual the name of the thing beforehand. P.S.—I forgot to tell you that we had a letter from Mrs. W., saying that she was to sail from Southampton on Monday last for America.") I think that both those letters are about the same date—the letter spoken of as Chieftain's letter enclosed, is the letter that I made a fac simile of—that is the letter I got from Meiklejohn—I went abroad on 19th July, 1876, and joined Benson in Paris—we stopped at the Hotel de Evrement, some
<lb/>where at the back of the Madeleine—I stayed with Benson three days—after Paris we went to Dover, and from there to the Cannon Street Hotel, where we were met by Meiklejohn on the platform—I had telegraphed an appointment from Dover—we dined at the Cannon Street Hotel, Meikle
<lb/>john, Benson, Bale, and myself—nothing was said then about opening a racing firm at Dover—it was in reference to opening a Paris loan—after that Benson went to live at Canonbury, at Mrs. Bruce's—on 14th July I saw Clarke at Sandown Park races, when a horse called Medora won—we had a conversation, but simply about the horse—he knew me as attending races, and I knew
<hi rend="italic">him</hi> as a police inspector—Benson also lived at Mrs. Ethel's, in the name of Yonge, I believe—that is in Beresford Road, Canonbury—I came back from Paris about 23rd July, and in August the scheme was prepared for what are called the De Goncourt frauds—Benson, Bale, my brother, and myself were parties to it—we were to get money by publishing a newspaper containing an article stat
<lb/>ing that the bookmakers did not give sufficient odds—this (
<hi rend="italic">produced</hi>) is the newspaper—it is called
<hi rend="italic">The Sport</hi>, and is numbered 1,713—it was printed in Edinburgh, and a translation into French was sent to various persons in France—the article suggests that the bookmakers would not give the fair odds to persons well known to be skilled in horses, so that if any body in France was inclined to bet through Mr. Montgomery they might make a commission, and he would make his bargain with the book-makers—the cheques for Mr. Montgomery were to be sent to anybody who would consent to act as agent, and he was to send them to certain
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bookmakers who were named—it was for writing those fictitious cheques in the names of non-existing persons that I was convicted—these are the cheques (
<hi rend="italic">produced</hi>) which I procured to be engraved for the purpose of the fraud—they are on the Royal Bank of London, Agar Street, Strand—there is no such bank—they were to be made available to get people's money by inducing them to send their own money as well as these sham cheques of Mr. Montgomery—I wrote this leading article in English first and Benson made the grammatical corrections—the translation was printed to be sent to the paper, so that if they doubted the French translation they had the English newspaper to compare with it—No. 8, Northumber
<lb/>land Street, Mr. Flintoff's office, was taken for the purpose of the fraud—this is the agreement—(
<hi rend="italic">This was dated 31st August for rooms at</hi> 8,
<hi rend="italic">North
<lb/>umberland Street for four weeks, for 61.</hi> 3
<hi rend="italic">s., renewable one day before the expiration of any four weeks</hi>)—I was at Flintoff's during the day, from 9.30 to about 5, and Flintoff saw me there from time to time during the day Inspector Clarke gave evidence on the trial that I was at Sandown Races that day, but it was not true—I was not there at all—in the progress of this business I received between 14,000
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. and 15,000
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. from abroad—be
<lb/>sides 8, Northumberland Street, other places were taken where cheques were to be sent to, Montgomery's in Fleet Street, Francis's in Cleveland Row, and Ellerton's in Duke Street—my brother Frederick represented Montgomery, Bale represented Ellerton, and my brother also re
<lb/>presented Charles Jackson at, I think, St. James's Place—my brother was also Jacob Francis at Cleveland Row—Bale was Richard Gregory; he was, I think, in Duke Street—it was arranged that the places should be in the south-west district, because we had bribed two of the post inspectors of that district to give us information, when the letters were stopped—I was introduced to those men to bribe them by Meikle john on 10th August—on the first Saturday in August I said to Meikle john "The French police have telegraphed to Dover, and stopped our letters," referring to the Dover frauds, the loan company—he said "I suppose you are going to try something else?"—I said "I am going to try to get those letters from the French police first"—he said "How are you going to do that?"—I said "I am going to send a forged telegram in the name of Mr. Williamson to the police at Paris"—and I said that Benson had got the French telegram destroyed by the Dover police—he said "How will you account for sending the telegram from London when the inquiry was at Dover?"—I said that I should pretend that the telegram had been sent to Scotland Yard to reply to—he said "There will be a stink about that when that is found out, what do you intend doing next? have you got any idea in your head?"—I said "Yes"—he said "What is it?"—I said "I am going to publish a newspaper, and am going home to-night to write the article"—he said "What is it about?"—I said "Similar to what you call the
<hi rend="italic">muddle again</hi>—there will be a
<hi rend="italic">duffing</hi> bank in it—(I had previously given him the outline of a scheme which he called the
<hi rend="italic">muddle again</hi>)—he said "When are you going to start it?"—I said "I shall lose no time about it, I am going home to do it to-night"—he said "Have you told
<hi rend="italic">Poodle</hi> about it?" meaning Benson—I said "No; I will tell him when he returns from Dover," and I said "Let me know if anything turns up about that forged telegram—he said "All right"—that was all that passed—on 2nd September I was present at a dinner at Ethel's with Benson and Meiklejohn, when my
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220089"/>
groom, Goldie, brought a telegram for Meiklejohn, which my wife had given him—it was sent by Meiklejohn's wife to my care, and I being absent, my groom brought it—it referred to the Gainsborough picture—after receiving it Meiklejohn left—I also saw Druscovich at Ascot races, when he told me he had found a pocket-book belonging to Mr. Collette—it did not relate to the frauds—Druscovich, Shaw, and I went to a refresh
<lb/>ment bar—this letter is in Meiklejohn's writing—(" 202, South Lambeth Road, S.W. Monday Morning. Dear Bill,—I have written the Dust
<lb/>man saying that I had a letter from you this morning, asking him to meet you at the Swan public-house, Clapham Road, at 8 p.m. this day Mon
<lb/>day. Do you know how things stand?")—I met Druscovich at the Swan—he said "I have a letter from Meiklejohn telling me to meet you here"—I said "Yes, go inside, I want to speak to you"—and I said "I am going to open a private betting office, inviting persons in Prance to bet"—he said "Is it a legitimate affair?"—I said "Yes, I want you to tell me when any application is made for warrants, or when any complaints come"—he said "What is the name?"—I said "Montgomery; here is 25
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. for you"—he said "I already owe you something," and he refused it, and I put the money in his pocket—it was in a small bag in gold—he said "How am I to communicate with you if anything turns up?" and "I know, I will write to you in such a way that nobody will understand it but you and I"—that was the end of that interview—a little later, about September, I saw Clarke—I had written a letter making an appointment, and called at his house at eight o'clock—he said "You wanted to see me"—I said "Yes, you know that I have got several horses"—he said "Yes"—I said "I intend entering them to race here and advising persons in France to back them"—he said "What do the people in France know about your horses?"—I said "They will know when I tell them"—Clarke said. "That won't pay"—I said "I will make that pay," and "Here is fifty for you," and I gave him 50
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. in a bag—he took it—I said "I will send you some post-cards addressed to myself, and if anything happens you pop one of them in the post and I will come and see you"—he said "Don't have post-cards"—I said "Well, I will send you some addressed envelopes"—Clarke said "What name are you using? I suppose not your own"—I said "Montgomery, and other names, but you will know that any betting affair coming from France concerns me"—I sent him some addressed envelopes one day afterwards—I went into 8, Northumberland Street, on 31st August, and continued there till the 26th September—it was about a hundred paces from the back of Scotland Yard—about 9th or 10th September Meiklejohn came in and said to Benson "It is very thick for you,
<hi rend="italic">Poodle</hi>, there is a warrant out for you, and there is a warrant out for Montgomery, Jackson, and Francis," and he produced a piece of paper with those names written on it—Benson said "Do not joke,
<hi rend="italic">Jack</hi>, is it a fact?"—Meiklejohn then said "No, it is only my fun, I have just come from Scotland Yard, it is all right"—I first knew Palmer in 1872—I met him first at the Angel Hotel—I saw him at the Northumberland Rooms, next door to 8, Northumberland Street, before 9th September—I said "Do you want to see Harry?"—he said "I want to see Bale"—Harry is Street; Street and Palmer were acquainted—I said "Is there any message for him?"—Palmer said "Tell him there is nothing"—Palmer then went away—Meiklejohn had gone to Derby while we were in North
<lb/>umberland Street—this is his letter—("Derby, 14th September, 1876.
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Dear Bill,—Things have gone on all right since you
<hi rend="italic">left.</hi> I will be at home at 8 p.m. on Saturday, and will be glad to see you and Poodle. You did not come last Sunday according to promise. I have heard nothing from J. W. C, so I think everything is safe from J. W. C") This letter is also from Derby—(" 20th September, 1876. Dear Bill,—"Was pleased you had your dust cleared away, so well done, so very satis
<lb/>factory. I will be in London by about 4 p.m. on Saturday. I leave here by train at 1.5. I send you here with a letter from Wilson of Glasgow for your perusal. I find that I must apply for assistance from you and Poodle. I will be moving next week, and I find that I will be short of brass; you might let me have a pony to go on with if it will not incon
<lb/>venience you very much, which I know it will not. I will meet you on the platform, St. Pancras, at 4.10. p.m. Saturday. We have got the house I spoke to you about.") I do not remember whether there was a letter in it—on Monday, 25th September, I left the office in my gig and saw Druscovich near the entrance of Scotland Yard—he said "lam glad I have seen you; there is a big swindle come in from Paris, 10,000
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>."—I said "Is it a racing affair?"—he said "No, I don't think it is, it is something to do with some spurious bills of exchange; a solicitor has been to the office"—I said "Keep the case in your hands"—he said "It is all right, I have got all the papers in my desk"—I went to Inspector Clarke about ten o'clock that night in a hansom cab belonging to a man named Porter—I drove from the cab-stand at the bottom of Ashby Road to the Bang's Arms public-house at the corner of Great College Street—(this was in consequence of receiving a piece of blotting paper in one of the envelopes which I had addressed to Clarke)—I saw Clarke there—he said "I expected you earlier"—I said "I could not get here before"—he said "There must have been some delay in the post-office"—I said "I received your letter only twenty minutes ago"—he said "There is something come in from France; I am frightened and alarmed, have you changed the notes yet?"—I said "No; will it be safe to change them now they have had time to stop them?"—I had said nothing about notes up to this point—he said "I think it will be right if you lose no time and change them to-morrow, but you must not go to any of the places or somebody will be sent there to-morrow"—The "places "were the addresses of the people concerned in the frauds—he said "It would look funny, after going there so long for letters, to have them stopped; can you account for it in any way?"—I said "I will send in some notices to get them to send on the letters to Newmarket"—Clarke said "Do some
<lb/>thing"—I said "Who has got the case?"—Clarke said "Druscovich;. is he all right?"—I made some reply which I cannot recollect and left—next morning at ten o'clock I went to 8, Northumberland Street, packed the things up and left—on the same night that I saw Clarke I drove back in Porter's cab to Newington Green Road and threw a stone through Benson's window between twelve and one o'clock—I did not see him—I wrote to Druscovich the same night to make an appointment to see him at ten o'clock next morning, the 26th under the arch of the Charing Cross railway, which is close to 8, Northumberland Street—I had received a letter that day from Drus
<lb/>covich, and when we mot he said "Have you got my letter?"—I said "Yes; here it is," and I returned it to him—I said "That swindle does concern me"—he was very excited and said "I know I
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am being:
<hi rend="italic">piped off"</hi>—that in our language means being followed or matched—it would imply that another detective was following him, but I do not believe it—I don't think he knew what he was saying, he was so excited—he said "What more are they doing? have they stopped the notes?"—I said "I don't know," and with that he walked away very sharply—he said "I have told you now, and you will have to look out for yourself"—I received these drafts (
<hi rend="italic">produced</hi>) from Madame De Goncourt on the Credit Lyonnais, which I had cashed at Reinhardt's, the money-changer's in
<lb/>London—they were all from the department of the Marne—(
<hi rend="italic">These were for sums varying from</hi> 5,000 to 125,000
<hi rend="italic">francs, payable in Paris)—I</hi> changed them for English bank notes, which I gave to Benson to take them to Glasgow and change them into Scotch notes so as to destroy the trace of them, as the bankers in Scotland do not take the numbers of their notes—I stayed at my own house that night, and went to Derby next day, where I saw Meiklejohn at his office, the Midland Railway Company's office—I said "There is something turned up, you must come to London and see Druscovich"—he said "What is it all about"—I said "We have been getting a lot of money from France"—he said "Have you seen Druscovich?"—I said "Yes; but I can get no information from him; I get all the news from the old man"—that is Clarke—he said "We have to do all the work directly the stink comes, how
<hi rend="italic">did</hi> the old man take it? did he funk it at all?"—I said "Yes, he did; he called my attention to the fact of leaving the places suddenly"—he said "I suppose you have left all the
<hi rend="italic">joints</hi> 7—that means the offices where the swindle was carried on—that is a cant word—I said "Well, don't you think Mr. Williamson will be suspicious about this?"—he said "Oh, he is a calf; he will
<hi rend="italic">never tumble</hi> to it in 1,000 years, I will come up and set it straight for you; I will send a telegram to Druscovich, telling him to meet us at St. Pancras, and we will go up by the 5.10"—I saw him write the telegram, and he told me that he had sent it—we came up together and got to London about 8.30 that evening, where I saw Druscovich on the platform—we went to the Midland Hotel, and Druscovich said "There is no mistake, you have got a clever fellow behind you,
<hi rend="italic">Bill</hi>; talk about Victor Hugo, I never read such French in my life"—Meiklejohn said
<hi rend="italic">"Bill</hi> thinks he has got the best French scholar in England"—Benson had translated all the documents, but he was referring to letters written by Benson and received by Madame De Goncourt—Meiklejohn said "What did they say when they read them? "—Meiklejohn said "The Countess's brother kept saying '
<hi rend="italic">Mon Dieu</hi>' "—I said "Have you got any warrants out?"—Druscovich said "Yes; we have got them out to-day"—I said "Who granted them?"—he said "Mr. Knox, and he said 'Don't be particular who you bring before me' "—Druscovich said "I suppose you will go to America now?"—I said "No"—Druscovich then said "I must arrest somebody over this job"—I said "Arrest me if you like," and he said "I think I will"—he also said "You have not been seen at any of the places, have you?" and I said "No"—he said "Well, you be at Fleet Street at one o'clock coming out of the Albert Club, and I will bring Clarke, or somebody from our place, and arrest you"—I said "I cannot wait about Fleet Street all day, I have got to attend to changing the notes; come to my house at nine o'clock and arrest me there"—Druscovich said "Very
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220092"/>
well"—I said "Have you got all the numbers of the notes that are stopped?"—Druscovich. said "No"—with that Druscovich left for a moment or two, and I said to Meiklejohn "Go and find out all about it, Jack"—Meiklejohn said "I will see you to-morrow, and tell you the numbers of the notes that have been stopped"—I had never been to the clubs or to Reinhardt's, so that I could not have been identified at any of those places—I went home that night, and went out next morning at nine—if I had been arrested, or if my house had been searched, there was nothing to connect me with the frauds—I saw Meiklejohn by ap
<lb/>pointment next day, the 29th, at the King Lud, at the bottom of Ludgate Hill, about twelve o'clock—he produced a piece of paper, and said "I have got the numbers of those notes"—the paper he gave me only represented the numbers of some of the notes which Benson had got—I then tele
<lb/>graphed to Benson—I then gave Meiklejohn 20
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. in gold, and made an ap
<lb/>pointment to meet him again that night, which I did, at 202, South Lambeth Road, but he was in bed when I got there, and we had no conversation—I went to the Kentish Town station of the Midland Railway on the Satur
<lb/>day at 4.20 and saw Druscovich, Meiklejohn joined us, and we three went to a public-house, where Druscovich said "What did you want to send that telegram to the postmaster at Newmarket for?"—that referred to my telegram on the 29th to the postmaster there to send all letters he had to Portsmouth—I had left word at the different lodgings for all letters to be forwarded to Newmarket—Druscovich told me that the postmaster had told him that, and I knew he had been down to Newmarket—Drus
<lb/>covich said "I want to make a cigarette, but the paper is so bad I cannot use it"—the landlord of the house said "Oh, have you been to New-market?"—I said "He means the New Cattle Market"—and he said "Yes, I mean the New Cattle Market"—the landlord did not hear the conversation about the postmaster, but he caught the word "Newmarket"—Meiklejohn called me to one side and said "What are you going to give Druscovich?"—he had previously said at the King Lud "I suppose you have given him five cents," meaning 500
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>.—I said "I do not know what I shall give him yet"—he said "When are you going to pay him?"—I said "I will leave the money for him on Monday or Tuesday in a cigar box at his house"—he said "How's Poodle getting on; has he changed the notes yet?" and I replied "I expect he wall change them on Monday, how am I to
<hi rend="italic">get</hi> any information from Druscovich? he is frightened to come near me; tell him to make all his business known at the office, and I am sure to know then, from others"—Meiklejohn replied "I
<hi rend="italic">will</hi> tell him," and afterwards Meiklejohn did tell him in my presence to make all his business known at Scotland Yard—I do not know the name of the public-house to which I have referred; but it is situated at the first turning on the left in Leighton Road, Kentish Town, and is the only public-house near the station, and is about a minute's walk from it.

<hi rend="italic">Friday, Oct.</hi> 26th.

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-358" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-358" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-358" type="surname" value="KURR"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-358" type="given" value="WILLIAM"/>WILLIAM KURR</persName> </hi> (
<hi rend="italic">recalled and further examined</hi>). On the Monday 2nd or Tuesday night 3rd after the conversation in the public-house at Kentish Town, which I narrated yesterday, I left at Meiklejohn's house a cigar box contain
<lb/>ing 200
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. in gold—I handed the box to Meiklejohn's wife—there was nothing on it by way of address—in the course of the same week, on Oct. 4, I saw Clarke at his house, 20, Great College Street—Clarke said to me "There has an account come in about the changing of those notes; some one has
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220093"/>
been in Glasgow changing those notes?"—I said "You soon heard of it"—he said "Yes, I suppose you have sent Yonge?"—I said "Yes"—he said "What a fool you must be to send a man like that; I suppose he was carried into the bank"—I said "Yonge has now recovered the use of his legs, so he would not be suspected"—Clarke said "You astonish me; Druscovich is going down to-night to make inquiries; where is Yonge?"—I replied "He has come back"—that was a fact—I then said to Clarke "Here is 150
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. for you," and handed him a bag containing 150
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. in gold—Clarke said "Thanks"—I cashed a draft of the British Linen Company which had been given to me by Benson at Messrs. Smith, Payne, and Smith's, and changed the notes for gold at the Bank of England. (
<hi rend="italic">The draft was produced, being on the British Linen Company, Glasgow, dated Oct.</hi> 30
<hi rend="italic">th</hi>, 1876,
<hi rend="italic">for</hi> 300
<hi rend="italic">l. in favour of Wm. Medway and endorsed Wm Medway"</hi>). I endorsed it. Medway is one of the names by which I went—I told Clarke I would go and telegraph to the people in Glasgow to stop them from going to the banks—I had heard from Benson the arrangements he had made in Scotland for getting rid of the notes—I next saw Clarke on the 10th October—Benson came back on the 4th October—I went to Brighton with Benson on the 5th—I stayed at the Brighton until Tuesday, the 10th—I telegraphed to Clarke at his house on the evening of the 10th from the Brighton Company's telegraph office at Brighton Railway station—I was coming up to see Clarke on account of receiving some infor
<lb/>mation—I had not at that time seen anything which attracted my atten
<lb/>tion—I also telegraphed to Palmer and Von Tornow—I first went to the public-house at the corner of the South Lambeth Road—I saw Palmer there—I said to him" Have you heard anything about a cab inquiry?"—Palmer said "No"—I said "Has the Governor come back yet?"—the Governor meant Mr. Williamson—Palmer said "No"—I said "Who is in charge? "—Palmer said "Old George"—Old George is Clarke—I said "I'll go on and see him"—there was also a conversation about a racing matter, not bearing on this—the telegram I sent was sent at 4.55, and we arrived in London a few minutes after six, and I saw Clarke about seven in his house, Great College Street—Clarke said "Where did that blasted fool drive to when he left the Midland? they are going to trace the cabman"—he said "He left Glasgow with the French servant in a Pulman; it must have been quite open, or they would not have seen him; why didn't he get out at some station and come on afterwards?"—I said "It's a bad job, but we must stop the inquiry somehow"—Clarke said "How am I stop it?"—I said "Easy enough, you are in charge; send You Tornow to make the inquiry"—Clarke said "Do you know Von Tornow?"—I said "Yes"—Clarke said "I must let things take their course"—I said "I shall go to the Midland, and stop whoever you send; so you may just as well send Von Tornow"—Clarke said "Very well, I will send him—directly he comes to the office to-morrow"—Clarke said "Does any one know that you have come to see me to-night?"—I said "No," that was all—he (Clarke) walked about fifty yards with me—Benson was waiting in a cab a
<hi rend="italic">few</hi> yards from Great College Street—he had come up with me from Brighton—I believe it was the same cab which we had taken when we first arrived in London—I saw the reward offered for the cabdriver on the Saturday after the conversation with Clarke—the bill produced was the one I saw (
<hi rend="italic">It stated that at</hi> 8.30
<hi rend="italic">a.m. on Wednesday, the 4th inst., a man</hi>, 36
<hi rend="italic">years old, 5ft. 4 in oroft</hi> 5
<hi rend="italic">in. in height, and of Jewish appearance</hi>,
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220094"/>

<hi rend="italic">hired a passing cab on Pentonville Hill. A reward of </hi>2
<hi rend="italic">l. would be given to any one giving information as to where the fare was set down, supposed to be in the neighbourhood of Stoke Newington. Information to be given to Superintendent Williamson at Scotland Yard.</hi>) I had heard of inquiries before that bill was issued—I returned from Brighton a second time through receiving a copy of the bill—I went to the Midland on the morning of the 11th as I told Clarke I would, and saw Von Tornow at five minutes to ten—I had a conversation with him and gave him 10
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. in a public-house in Judd Street—I next saw Clarke, I believe, about three days after Murray's arrest, about 30th Nov.—after the interview with Von Tornow I went back to Brighton with Benson, and stopped till Saturday—I then came up to London and went to my own house—I stayed there a month—on Tuesday, the 17th, I went to the Castle and Falcon—I saw Benson there—on the following day I saw Meiklejohn, and went with him to the Castle and Falcon, where Benson was staying—I said to Meiklejohn in the cab on the way to the Castle and Falcon, "I want you to tell Benson that Druscovich has said he must send that French servant of his away at once, or he will have nothing more to do with us"—Meiklejohn said he would—Meiklejohn said that they had got the boots up from the hotel at Glasgow—Meiklejohn also said that Superintendent Williamson before he left said to Druscovich, "Mind you catch those turf fraud swindlers before I come back"—we then arrived at the Castle and Falcon—when we got there Meiklejohn said "You must get rid of that Frenchman, or Druscovich will have nothing more to do with you"—Benson said "I would pack him off to-day, but my legs are so bad; I am afraid to travel alone; I am going down to Matlock, and will advertise for another servant there"—Benson had a conversation with Meiklejohn—I cannot remember all of it, but I do remember Benson saying "I intended to offer 200
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>., but I have made it 300
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>."—Meiklejohn said "What did you set that b——Jew on to me for? I suppose you did it? You make me an offer, Bill?"—I said "500
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>.; will that satisfy you?"—I said "Now you stand a bottle of champagne"—he said "No, make Poodle stand it"—I said "I shall have to pay you in Clydesdale notes, Jack?"—Meiklejohn said "All right, that will do as well"—this was in the evening—I said "Perhaps you will now pay me back the 20
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. you borrowed of me"—Meiklejohn said "You may go and whistle for that"—I said "I will try and catch the train at Kentish Town and give you the money"—I was going off by train—Iwent and fetched the notes and met him at the Kentish Town station—I handed them into the carriage—they were Clydesdale bank notes which I had got from Benson—Benson was with Meiklejohn at the time, and I left them together when I went to fetch the notes—I met them again at the Kentish Town station—I next saw Meiklejohn on Friday, the 20th Oct., at Derby—I went to Derby in consequence of having received a letter from Benson—when I got to Derby I had a con
<lb/>versation with Benson, during a portion of which Meiklejohn was present, but during what portion I cannot remember—Meiklejohn said "I put one of those notes down in Manchester, and they made me put my name at the back; I put the name of James Turner"—Meiklejohn said also "We have sent for you to arrange about starting in another town"—I said "London won't do; what do you think of Birmingham?"—meikle john said "Do you know any of the police there?"—I said "No, but I know some one who does"—Benson said "I don't think the banking
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220095"/>
facilities would suit us there"—Meiklejohn said "How would Dundee suit you? I could introduce you to Dewar there. Young Harry knows him; he used to be superintendent of the police at Greenock"—I said "I don't think the postal arrangements would suit us at Dundee, it is too far north; I think Edinburgh would be the best town to start in; I have got Gollan square there"—Meiklejohn said "Why not get at Linton?"—I said "Do you know Linton?"—Benson was present during the whole of the conversation—Meiklejohn said "Grollan can introduce us to him"—I said "Will you and Benson go down there and get an introduction to him?"—Meiklejohn said "No, you had better come down yourself"—after that I went to Matlock—on the Tuesday following I went to New-market—while there I saw Druscovich—there was a man with him at the time standing some thirty yards off—the man seemed to be taking notice of me—I spoke to Druscovich—we had a racing conversation—I went back to London the same night—I next saw Druscovich, I think, on the 30th or 31st at Dicks' Hotel, Temple Bar—on that occasion Druscovich said "I have satisfied Abrahams to-day in an argument I had with him—I have shown him that the notes which they stopped first came in last; but somebody has mentioned your name to him; I told him the cabman had seen you, I cannot do any more"—I said to Druscovich "Who told Abra
<lb/>hams about me?"—he said "The editor of a paper"—I asked him "The editor of what paper?" and he produced a letter from his pocket with "William Kurr "pencilled on the back of it—he then said "I will tell Meiklejohn the name of the paper"—I produced a copy of the
<hi rend="italic">Sportsman</hi>—from my pocket, and pointed to it significantly, and Druscovich nodded—Meiklejohn. was present at this conversation—Mr. Ashley is the editor of the
<hi rend="italic">Sportsman</hi>—I do not know that he knew me—Meiklejohn said "I am going back to Derby—are you coming my road, Bill?"—Druscovich said "No, don't go with him—I want to speak to you"—
<hi rend="italic">with</hi> that Meiklejohn left us—I said "What is it you want to say to me?"—Druscovich said "Ride a little way in my cab with me"—I did so—he said "I have not had enough, Bill"—I said "Very well, you must have some more, what time shall I see you to-morrow?"—he said "Twelve o'clock"—I said "Where abouts"—he said "At the North
<lb/>umberland Hotel"—I said "That is very near to Flintoff's"—he said "It don't matter a damn, I have had you identified," referring to the cabman seeing me, the man who was apparently looking at me at New
<lb/>market—I said I would be there at twelve o'clock—I kept the appoint
<lb/>ment next day, and I gave Druscovich 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. and some jewellery—I had been with Benson to Benson's on Ludgate Hill, and got the jewellery on 1st November, the same day that I gave the money—I think it was a necklet or bracelet or something—I paid 20
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. or 25
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. for it—on Thursday, and November, Benson went to Edinburgh—I remained in London till the next day, and then went to Leeds—I did not stay there five minutes—I met Meiklejohn there, and went on with him to Edinburgh, and ultimately on the Saturday to the Bridge of Allan, and met Benson there, that was by arrangement between Benson and myself; we stayed at the Queen's Hotel—I passed as Gifford, and Benson as Yonge, and Meikle
<lb/>john in his own name—this (
<hi rend="italic">produced</hi>) is the visitors' book—I see the name of Yonge here—I don't think that is Benson's writing—it appears to be the waiter's, with the word "London" added to it—I see my own writing here "Gifford"—before we were at the Bridge of Allan I believe
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220096"/>
it was arranged that Benson should be introduced to Mr. Monteith, of tie Alloa branch of the Clydesdale Bank, to open an account there—I did not hear the arran ement made—I know that he wasintroduced—I was not present—on the Sunday, the 5th November, we went to dinner at Dumblane—there were present at the dinner Wilson, a detective officer of Glasgow, Gollan, a detective of Edinburgh, Meikiejohn, myself, and Benson—Dumblane is about three miles from the Bridge of Allan—I had not driven over there—Benson and Meikiejohn had, or rather Benson met Meikiejohn at his house I believe—at this time I had about 6,000
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. of the notes obtained in Glasgow, and Benson about the same—on the 9th I opened an account at the Alloa branch in the name of William Gifford—this (
<hi rend="italic">produced</hi>) is the paying in slip—(
<hi rend="italic">This was for</hi> 500
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>.
<hi rend="italic">paid in by william Gifford on 9th Noevember</hi>, 1876)—it was in one Clydesdale note, and four others, either of the City of Glasgow Bank, or the Royal, two of each—I had got them from Benson on his return from his expedition to Scotland—while we were at the Bridge of Allan I saw accounts in the papers of this fraud, and on Friday the 10th I received a telegram—I destroyed it—it was from W. Brown, London, to Gifford, Queen's Hotel—"D. is coming down to-night. Get Shanks out of the way." The first telegram I received was at 3.20. I received three or four that day. W. Brown's came at 3.20, one from Parry about 4, I think, and another one from W. Brown about 8.20. The first one was: "If Shanks is near the Isle of Wight, let him come and see you." I can't recollect any more of that telegram—this is it (
<hi rend="italic">produced</hi>)—of course I received a duplicate of that—this was the contents of it—(
<hi rend="italic">Read;</hi> "From W. Brown, London, November 6th. West Strand Postal District, 3.24. To W. Gifford, Queen's Hotel, Bridge of Allan. If Shanks is near the Isle of Wight let him leave at once, and see you, a letter follows.") The next one was from Parry to Gifford—Street passed by the name of Parry—it was—"The air is very bracing here; shall go to London; not being interested, don't care about throwing a chance away." That came from Edinburgh about 8.20, I should think—I was in the act of leaving the hotel when the last telegram came—we had been dining together—I read it, and took it upstairs to Benson—that was the one. "D. is coming down to-night, let Shanks keep out of the way." Of course I guessed that D. was Druscovich, and Shanks Benson—there was no pre-arranged name, but I understood that—finding that Druscovich was coming down that night, I had a conversation with Benson, and left for Glasgow—I knew that William Brown was Palmer; at least, I did not know that of my own knowledge—when I got to Glasgow I telegraphed to Palmer—this is the telegram. (
<hi rend="italic">Read</hi>: "From Gifford, Post Office, Glasgow, to Palmer, 38, Methley Street, Kennington Cross, London. Your telegram received. Does our friend go to Edinburgh or Bridge? also say by what train if possible, as I wish to join him. Very important is he alone. I will await your telegram all night. Post office here open all night. I want reply to three questions, reply paid for. Glasgow, November 10th. Sent out at 11.45 p. 5
<hi rend="italic">s</hi>. 6
<hi rend="italic">d</hi>. paid for reply.") I received a reply at 4 a.m.—I destroyed it—the reply I received was—"D. is coming down, and will meet the cabman in Edinburgh." I cannot be certain as to the wording of that telegram—it asked for a reply to three questions, but I had read another telegram in the meantime, so I did not trouble myself at all about this telegram—the telegram I read in the meantime was from
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220097"/>
Mr. Wilson—I read it in the detectives' room at the Central Police Office in Glasgow, about three in the morning—that was from Wilson to the superintendent of police, Glasgow—I had sent the telegram to Palmer, I think about 12.45, or about 12 at night, and received the reply about 4 a.m.—you see that telegram answered the three questions that I wanted to know—I then went to Edinburgh, and from there I telegraphed to Druscovich at the police-office in Meiklcjohn's name—this is it. (
<hi rend="italic">Bead</hi>: "November 11th, 1876. Meet me at ten o'clock, end of Prince's Street, Caledonian station. Can give you information; must see you without fail; will wait till you come; important; come immediately on receipt of this.") I went to the corner of Prince's Street at ten o'clock—I saw Druscovich, and we went into the Rutland Hotel—I said to Druscovich "I suppose you are going to the Bridge of Allan?"—he said "Yes"—I said "I suppose you got your information from the servant girl in the Isle of Wight?"—Druscovich said "Yes, and a gentleman who was connected with Yonge's bankruptcy has been to the office"—I said "If you don't go to the Bridge of Allan I will give you l,000
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>."—Druscovichsaid "I must go"—I said "If you go making inquiries you will settle Meikle
<lb/>john, he has introduced Yonge to a bank manager there"—Druscovich said "I can't help it, I must go"—I said "You will find a letter there from Palmer, don't give that up"—Druscovich said "Why don't you go to the Bridge of Allan, and get the letters away first"—I said "If I do I shall be seen by McNab the cabman"—Druscovich said "I will keep in the hind part of the train, and you go near the engine"—this is the telegram I spoke of just now—I have never seen Druscovich write. (
<hi rend="italic">Superintendent Williamson</hi>: "This is Druscovich's writing.") (
<hi rend="italic">Read</hi>:" From Superinten
<lb/>dent Williamson, Scotland Yard, London, to Superintendent Brown. In
<lb/>spector Druscovich will arrive at Edinburgh to-morrow morning; send McNab by first train to meet him at the station, they will then proceed to Stirlingshire for a couple of days.") I had seen a duplicate of that—Drus
<lb/>covich and I were together at this interview for about fifteen minutes—after seeing Druscovich I telegraphed to Benson, as from Jackson to Clarkson, to Linlithgow, or Perth, I cannot recollect which—I went to Carlisle, then to Leeds, and ultimately to Derby to Meiklejohn's house—Benson had arrived there before me—this would be Sunday the 12th November—Benson and I stopped at Derby with Meiklejohn hour hours—duringthat time an arrangement was made as to what was to become of me and Ben
<lb/>son—it was arranged that Benson should go to Leicester, and that I should go to London, and find out from Scotland Yard what Druscovich had been doing—I communicated to Meiklejohn what had passed between me and Druseovich—I have no recollection of Meiklejohn saying anything as to what proof there would be about his having been at the Bridge of Allan—I had left 500
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. behind me at the Alloa bank—in order to get that back 1 sent Murray with these two cheques to Alloa on the 13th—(
<hi rend="italic">One of these was drawn by Henry Yonge for</hi> 3,000
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>.,
<hi rend="italic">and the other by William Gifford for</hi> 500
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>.,
<hi rend="italic">both in favour of Mr. Carson</hi>)—on the 13th I received a telegram from Meiklejohn—I destroyed it—this (
<hi rend="italic">produced</hi>) is the original in Meikle
<lb/>john's writing. (
<hi rend="italic">Read</hi>: "From Thompson to Kurr, 29, Marquess Road, Canonbury. November 13th. Come to Leicester by 2.30 from St. Pancras without fail. Just heard from the Contractor. I will be there.") "The Contractor "is Druscovich—in consequence of that I went down to Leicester at once—I there found Benson and Meiklejohn—Meiklejohn
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220098"/>
said "We have sent for you to arrange which is the best place for Yonge to go to"—I said "I think he had better go by Larne to Port
<lb/>land"—meaning Portland at Maine, United States—Benson said "I have sent Pierre away to America"—I said "I was going to London to find out whether they had received any notices at Londonderry or Larne"—Benson said that he was too late for the Irish mail that night—he would go the following day—the notices "were not in print at that time—I came back on the night of the 13th, and saw Chief Inspector Clarke—I saw him in consequence of a conversation that I had with Street—in consequence of that communication I went to the Duke of York's steps at eight o'clock on the Tuesday or Wednesday, I cannot fix it myself, and saw Clarke—Clarke said "What have you done with that fellow?"—I said "I have told him to go away from Londonderry or Larne, have you sent any notices away to those ports?"—Clarke said "We have been sending them away to-day"—I said "Have you sent any to Londonderry or Lame?"—he said "No, he can go from either of those ports"—Clarke said "Where is Lame?"—I said "In the north of Ireland"—on that occasion I saw Palmer walking up and down during the whole of this conversation—Clarke said "Did any one follow you?"—I said "Yes, I have seen Palmer following me"—he said "That is all right"—that was all that passed that I recollect—this was about eight o'clock in the evening—I saw Murray on the 13th—this interview with Clarke was either on the 14th or 15th—on 19th November I came back to London from a visit to Birmingham and other places to look after Benson—it would be Monday that I came back and met Benson in a railway carriage on the Great Western—Street met me by arrangement—we took a cab from the station and drove to the Kennington Road—we stopped the cab there and Street and I walked—that was about a quarter of a mile from Palmer's house—Benson remained in the cab—I walked as far as the Vestry Hall—Street there left me for some little time—he then rejoined me, and we went back to the cab in which Benson was still alone—I think these bills were out after that—Meiklejohn had previously told me that he had seen the bill being written out at Scotland Yard ready for print—Murray was arrested on 27th November—about three days after his arrest I saw Inspector Clarke at eight o'clock, at the Duke of York's steps, it was the 30th—I believe I wrote to Clarke to procure that meet
<lb/>ing, I can't say for certain—when we met Clarke said "They have got Palmer's letter"—I said "What do they say about it"—he said "Williamson said to Palmer, 'It is painfully like your writing.' I have advised him to go sick"—Clarke also said "They have got one of mine on blotting-paper, a few words in a printed hand, which they cannot identify"—I said "It was Druscovich's fault for bringing them back"—he said "Druscovich is a man I don't trust, do you? How long have you known him?"—I said "About six months"—Clarke said "How long have you known Von Tornow?"—I said "About two years"—Clarke said "They suspect him. Did you send a telegram to Druscovich while you were in Edinburgh?"—I said "Yes"—Clarke said "The Scotchmen put the blame on us"—I said "I don't think there is a case against Murray"—Clarke said "Who is that man Savory? when he came to Scotland Yard he said 'If you search the public-houses round you will find Kurr with all the money in his pocket' "—I said "Savory is a man of bad character, and has been convicted of perjury"—Clarke said "I
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220099"/>
am glad you know something about him. We had to search Murray's house the other night, Druscovich and I, and we found that d——d scamp Walters there; we were glad to let him slip out at the back. It would hare been a nice mess if we had taken him too; we had two sergeants with us, we left them outside"—Clarke said "There is another unpleasant thing, you or Benson have been saying that I received 400
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. out of the Walters and Murray job"—I said "Where did you hear that?"—Clarke said "In the City"—I said "Who told you?"—he said it did not matter—I said "I will tell you how the story originated—Shore told a man named Levy, and Levy told Bailey, the chief of the City, and Bailey sent a man named Krampowiski to see me and tell me "-Clarke said "I will see Shore about it"—I don't recollect anything further—I en
<lb/>trusted certain cheques to Murray on 13th November, and also entrusted him with money and notes to the amount of 300
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. or 400
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>.—I first heard of his arrest on 28th November, the day after he was arrested—I know Henry Stenning; he was staying in my house at the time of Murray's arrest—I was in the habit of going about with him and exchanging clothes with him, to render my identification difficult—on hearing of Murray's arrest I sent Stenning to Mr. Froggatt, who I had heard of—I first saw Froggatt on 4th December, at the corner of Southampton Row, with Meiklejohn, who said "Of course you know Benson is
<hi rend="italic">buckled"</hi>—I said "Yes, I heard it to-day"—
<hi rend="italic">buckled</hi> means arrested—Froggatt said "Why didn't you come and see me yourself, instead of seeing a man who don't understand it?"—I said "I don't care about trusting people I don't know when there is a reward of 1,000
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. out"—Froggatt said "Meiklejohn knows me"—Meiklejohn said "Oh, yes, you can stand him for your life; as you have introduced him I have no objection to speak openly"—I said "I was thinking of sending a telegram in the name of Mr. Williamson to the police at Rotterdam, saying that Benson is not the man we want"—Froggatt said "That is a d——d good idea; if you had come to me earlier you would have known about Benson's arrest—on Sunday"—I said "How was that?"—Froggatt said "The man who was on reserve at Scotland Yard opened Mr. Williamson's telegram and came to my house"—Froggatt then produced a piece of paper in the street and proceeded to draft out a telegram; he wrote, "Morton, the man you have in custody," and I added "and the two men you have in custody," and I said "The two men are under observation, they will never get away from Rotterdam, so you must conclude they are arrested"—Frog
<lb/>gatt then wrote "liberate them"—I added "Immediately"—he said "No, it
<hi rend="italic">won't</hi> do to be too anxious about it, leave it as it is"—he completed the draft of the telegram, handed it to me, and said "Won't old William
<lb/>son scratch his head when he sees this?" and he said "I look to you to return my draft"—I afterwards did so—I left them, taking the draft with me, and joined Stenning, and told him to copy it on a continental telegraph form and send it—that was between 6 and 7 p.m.—I went back within ten minutes, and Froggatt and Meiklejohn were still there—I said "I have got that sent"—Froggatt said "I suppose you sent Stenning with it, I hope it comes off"—I said "I suppose you want some money"—he said "The other is all gone"—that referred to money he had received from Stenning for Murray's defence—I said "Will you go over to Rotterdam and see what you can do?"—Froggatt said "Yes"—I said "See if you can
<hi rend="italic">square</hi> the matter straight over there"—Froggatt
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220100"/>
said "A 50
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. note will go a Iong way over there; I think you had better leave it and see the result of this telegram"—I said "Yes, I will meet you here to-morrow," that would be the 5th, "at the Red Lion, South
<lb/>ampton Row"—I kept that appointment, and Froggatt said "Do you want to sell any of those notes? I fetched a banker over from Paris, but he told him a lot of lies. Do you know a man named
<hi rend="italic">Pick?</hi> he has told me all about you. If you want to sell the notes I will send
<hi rend="italic">Pick</hi> to you, but you will have to go over to Paris"—he said "I will take the notes over, if you like"—I said "That won't suit me either; I will meet the banker in Dover"—Froggatt said "Well, you had better see
<hi rend="italic">Pick</hi> and arrange with" him"—I said "I want to oppose the extradition; I should like to get the opinion of Mr. Benjamin"—he said "I think Mr. Grain will be able to answer what you want to know, and you can consult him about Murray's defence"—I said "Will you fix a conference with Mr. Grain?"—he said that he would, and nothing further passed—he after
<lb/>wards introduced Piquot to me—I had a conversation with Piquot, and I told Froggatt that Piquot and I did not agree—I met Piquot at the Mitre, in Kingsgate Street—we then went to Mr. Grain's chambers about the defence of Murray and the extradition—on the following Satur
<lb/>day I received a small note from Froggatt, asking me to come to London Bridge station—the note has been destroyed, it was on the margin of a newspaper: "Meet me at London Bridge station at," I think, "six o'clock"—I went, and met him there—Froggatt said "I have got an introduction to a merchant man named Moses, a man who knows all the police there—he produced a letter, it was written in French—he read it to me in English—I said "I suppose you will want some money, here is 50
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>.," and I said "How am I to know whether any warrants are applied for while you are away?"—he said "My clerk will tell you"—on. The same occasion I said "You had better give me one of your cards," or" your authority"—Froggatt said "I will give you one of my cards"—he then took the card and wrote on the back of it, and handed it to me—this is the card (
<hi rend="italic">produced</hi>): "Mr. Edward Froggatt, 6, Argyle Street, Regent Street, London. Dear Sir,—If you have any news as to warrants against any other parties, tell my clerk, Mr. Lewis. Yours, E. F. To Mr. Costigan." I understood Froggatt to say that Mr. Costigan was a clerk of the Marlborough Street Police Court—he also gave me this other card "Edward Froggatt, solicitor, 6, Argyle Street, Regent Street," and on the back, "Lewis, instruct George Iiaines for me as you will be told by bearer. E. F."—I do not recollect what that card was for; some unimportant affair—Mr. Froggatt went off that night by the train—I saw him about a week after in Southampton Row—lie said "I have seen Morton and the others, and I have seen the Minister of Justice; they only hear evidence of iden
<lb/>tity"—he said "I gave the governor over there a
<hi rend="italic">tenner;</hi> he put Collins on black bread and water, so I got that altered"—Collins was my brother, Frederick Kurr—I said "What sort of man is the governor?"'—he said "he did not know what to make of that 10
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. note, he has never seen so much in his life"—Froggatt said "Were you thinking of getting at him, then?"—I said "Yes"—he said "If you go over there they will very likely stick to you, they have made a lot of inquiries about you"—he said "I have got a French directory to get from the Southborough Road"—I said "My gig is waiting here, I will drive you there;" and I drove to my own house first with him—as I was coming out from my house I met
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220101"/>
Funnell—I was just going to get into the gig when Froggatt said "I will just see what old Funnell wants, you drive round the corner and wait for me"—I drove round the corner and waited for Froggatt—Froggatt said "Old Funnell said 'Who is that man?'" and he said "Oh, that is Jack Smith the racing man"—I drove Froggatt to the Southborough Road—he got out and went to a house there—when he came back to the
<hi rend="italic">gig</hi> he said "We are too late; Lambert has been here and got it away"—he showed me a receipt that Lambert had given the landlady for the directory—Froggatt kept the receipt—I saw Froggatt after this almost daily, and used to inquire from him whether there was any warrant out for my ap
<lb/>prehension—I knew Sawyer—I saw him at the Half Moon at Dulwich on the 26th December with Froggatt—he said "I have had a letter from a man named Sawyer in answer to the letter you sent to Abrahams"—I had sent a letter to Mr. Abrahams anonymously—I caused these (
<hi rend="italic">letters pro
<lb/>duced</hi>) to be sent; I did not send them myself—I said to Froggatt "Who is this man Sawyer?"—he said "He is clerk at the Middlesex sessions"—he said "You must know him, he gets a bit out of stopping the jacketing up there"—that is, when a detective or an officer at the sessions is going to give a prisoner a bad character or speak to his previous conviction—he said they would want 3,000
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>., 800
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. of it to be in English money—by they "I mean Mr. Abrahams and Sawyer—Meiklejohn was present at this conversation—I said "Do you know Sawyer, Jack, can I trust him?" Meiklejohn said "Oh yes, you can trust him for your life"—I think there was nothing further beyond arranging to meet Sawyer—that was the 20th December—the last interview that I have spoken of that I had with Clarke was about the 30th November—I next saw him about the 8th December, I think, at the Duke of York steps—he said "I thought you got that man Yonge away to America; what a foolish thing to send that telegram to Rotterdam; the governor suspects one of us, he says he will make an example if he finds out who sent it," and "I thought the other two (referring to Bale and my brother, who were arrested) were in
<hi rend="italic">New</hi> York"—I said "I told them to go, I could not help it"—he said "Yonge has given a letter out by some Dutchman saying that if you do not get him out he will tell all he knows"—this letter was intended to reach me in some way—I said "Who are translating the documents for the Treasury?"—Clarke said "Albert"—I said "Is there any chance of me getting at them?"—Clarke said "What shall you do?"—I said "Put them behind the fire"—Clarke said "Ah, you are too late"—he asked who the other two men were—I said "One is my brother"—the other was Bale, but I do not remember whether I told him so or not—I saw Clarke again on 29th December by appointment at the same place—I said "I have heard from a man named Sawyer, he has made an offer to settle the prosecution"—Clarke said "Palmer has
<hi rend="italic">told</hi> me some
<lb/>thing about it, I do not believe in it"—Clarke also said, "I will tell you something, Mr. Abrahams came to me and showed me your letters, and said 'How are we to get this money?'" and he had previously told me that he intended getting a warrant out for you"—I said "Froggatt has got the clerk squared at Marlborough Street, so I shall know when they make application for a warrant"—Clarke said "You are only a boy, I have had experience before you were born; never you trust a lawyer"—I said "They can only give Yonge two years for what they are going: to extradite him for"—he said "Oh, can't they, did not they give Von
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220102"/>
Howard five years for the same tiling? you are quite right in coming to me for my advice, but they are both (
<hi rend="italic">referring to Sawyer and Froggatt</hi>) shifty customers, I should not trust them"—this was about eight o'clock in the evening—before we parted I said "If I want to see you again, shall I write to you?"—Clarke said "Yes, write a letter saying that you have some information to give me over the De Tourville case"—that was some case that Clarke had charge of; some extradition case for murder—I said "No, I won't write, I will meet you here at eight o'clock on Sunday"—that would be the 31st—I met Sawyer and Froggatt together at the Half Moon at Dulwich on the 26th December; we had a conversa
<lb/>tion—Sawyer said that Mr. Abrahams was going to get a warrant out for me, and that I could settle by giving up 2,000
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>., so that by giving 3000
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. they would get the Countess back to France without prosecuting—that was the pith of the conversation—I can give you the whole of it if you like—the 31st was the night on which I was arrested—I saw Froggatt on the 27th, and went with him to a cafe in Nassau Street, Soho—we joined Sawyer there—Sawyer said they wanted 300
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. more—I said "I shall have to consult my friends before I can give you an answer to that"—I remember seeing Mr. Froggatt on the 30th at the Blue Posts in Great Portland Street, not far from the Marlborough Street police-court—he left me for a few moments and returned, and then I went to the court with him—I don't think he told me anything when he came back from the court except that there was no one there now; that I could come over and see Murray—I went over to the court and I saw Murray—I had a conversation with Murray, but I do not think Froggatt heard that—Froggatt said "There has been a consultation with the Magistrate by Mr. Poland and Mr. Pollard from the Treasury—he said that he had to go to the Clerkenvell Police Court, and on his return he had to meet the clerk, who would tell him what had taken place—I saw Froggatt in the evening at the Mitre—I said 'What was that conference about?"—Froggatt said "They made an application for a warrant for you, but it was refused"—he pro
<lb/>duced a piece of paper with the words "Flintoff, Northumberland Hotel refreshments"—he said "Flintoff cannot identify you, so that is all right"—in leaving the Court on the 30th, I had a conversation with Froggatt about getting Murray away from Marlborough Street—I said "From what I could see of this place, Murray could
<hi rend="italic">get</hi> away from here, as long as they do not put him in the cells"—he said "We shall have to give old Poole 100
<hi rend="italic">quid;</hi> he will be sure to get the sack"—Poole is the gaoler—he commenced as if drawing a plan on the palm of his hand of the place—I said "I will come and see it myself in the week"—Froggatt said "All right"—this was on Saturday the 30th of December—on the next day I was arrested, and taken to the Islington police station—itvas about eight o'clock at night—I was going to see Clarke at the Duke of York steps—Stenning was with me—I believe he tried to prevent my being arrested, but I could not see what he did—I sent him with a message to Froggatt—Froggatt came to me about ten o'clock the same night—I said "Will you go down to Scotland and see if you can stop a banker giving evidence of the name of Monteith"—Froggatt said "Yes; how do the trains go?"—he then asked Mr. Williamson if he would send out for a time-table—Mr. Williamson did not hear the conversation, he was in the large room—Mr. Williamson sent for a time-table, and
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220103"/>
handed it to Froggatt—I then said "I think perhaps you had better leave that till to-morrow, and come and see me up at the court, I might want you there"—I also said "How do you account for this? I suppose Sawyer was
<hi rend="italic">nosing</hi> for Mr. Abrahams?"—Froggatt said "I cannot account for it"—I saw him the next day at Marlborough Street police-court—I said "Will you send Stenning to Flintoff, and to the potman at the Northumberland Hotel? tell Flintoff to say that he make a mistake last night; the light was bad, and he made a mistake in identifying me"—Froggatt said he would send Stenning to Flintoff—then I saw Froggatt a second time—he said "I have seen Flintoff myself; I have offered him fifty
<hi rend="italic">quid</hi>"—I said "What did he say?"—Froggatt said "He did not agree; but if he cannot do you any good, he won't do you any harm"—Froggatt also said "I have told him that you are a brother mason"—I said "All right; what about the potman at the Northumberland Hotel?"—he said "Stenning has promised him a
<hi rend="italic">fiver</hi>; he says he won't identify you"—he also said "I have arranged with Stenning to stand just in the door of the court so that he can pop into the dock instead of you"—I said "That is all nonsense; tell Stenning to leave the court at once"—when I was brought up before the magistrate, Flintoff was examined as a witness, and identified me—in the course of the examination Stenning was pointed out by one of the detectives who arrested me, as one who sought to rescue me, and upon that Stenning was ordered into custody—I saw Froggatt the day after Stenning had been tried in this court for that rescue—Froggatt said "What ought that Flintoff to be done to; ought not he to be
<hi rend="italic">lagged?"</hi>—I said "Yes"—Froggatt said "What would you give?"—I said "50"—Froggatt said "I will take you at your word; I have got a summons out against him to-day, returnable next Thursday, that will suit you; I have got two good witnesses"—I said "Who are they?"—he said "My clerk, Lewis, and a client of mine, both heard Flintoff offer me 50
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>."—I said "Those witnesses would not be enough"—I said "Cannot you get Savory to swear that he heard the conversa
<lb/>tion "—Savory was a witness who was called in the case—he said "No; Savory is a villain; once a villain, always a villain"—he said "I am going now to instruct George Lewis to prosecute"—that was all on that occasion.

<hi rend="italic">Cross-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. WILLIAMS</hi>. I am twenty-six years of age—my father was a baker in the Caledonian Road—I began to earn a living when I was about fourteen, as a clerk on the South-Eastern Railway—I remained there about twelve months, and then ran away—after that I took to racing, backing horses at the London Clubs, George Yard, Exchange, at the bottom of Snow Hill, where they bet in a yard—I remained there about twelve months—then I went to a money-lender's, West or Haines, in Brook Street, Grosvenor Square—it was called the Grosvenor Investment Society, or something like that—it was a money lending concern—I was a clerk—I stayed there six months—the com
<lb/>pany went to rack and ruin, shut up, and I went back to racing—from the year 1871 up to the time of my arrest I derived my living by plundering and swindling the public—from the time that I left the company up to 1871 I continued betting on the turf—my first fraudulent venture was in St. John Street Road, City—that was a turf affair, backing horses that did not have a chance—a man named Howard was associated with me in the John Street scheme—no one
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220104"/>
else—it was not very profitable—it lasted about twelve months—the newspapers refused to insert any more advertisements—we realized 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>., 200
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>., or 300
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. perhaps—I cannot tell you nearer than that—Howard was a bookmaker—he is one still—I dissolved partnership with him—he did not join me in any subsequent swindles—I think the John Street business began about 1870—the next swindle was, I think, Green and Saunders, Agar Chambers, Strand—myself and a man named Willoughby were associated in that; no one else—it was a system of discretionary investments—we advised persons to hack horses by means of this system—it was a very good system in theory, but not in practice; good for us, but not for the public—it was not exactly a winning matter, it was putting their money into our pockets—that lasted about three months—we made a few hundred pounds by it—I cannot tell exactly how much; under 1,000
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>.—the Treasury prosecutions put an end to that—I was not prosecuted, hut there were a number of other prosecutions, and I thought it was time to shut up shop—the next was "Warner, Harvey, and Co., another swindle in Great George Street, Edinburgh—Murray was associated with me in it; also my brother, the one that is dead, and Willoughby—that was successful; it lasted about three months—we made about 500
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. perhaps, I could not say exactly—Murray, myself, and Willoughby divided it—the scheme was, advising persons to back horses—you send so much money to back a certain horse, the horse I advise you to back is one that I think has got no chance, and we keep the money—or suppose instead of backing that horse with me you back it with some one else and win 1,000
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. perhaps you give me out—I was the author of all these schemes—the next was I hilip Gardner and Co.—Murray, myself, Street, and a man named Eustace composed the firm—it was carried on in Elder Street, Edinburgh—it lasted two or three months—I don't think I lost or gained anything by it—it was put an end to by Eustace being arrested; they bailed him out, then he appeared; he was neither convicted nor tried—Meiklejohn settled that prosecution—I have said that I had a certain amount of ill feeling against Meiklejohn, because I believed he was con
<lb/>spiring with Sawyer to rob me of 3,000
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>.—after Philip Gardner and Co. came to an end I went to America and opened a firm there—it was a turf swindle—it lasted about a fortnight perhaps—I did not make money by it—I stopped in America about six months altogether—I did not do any
<lb/>thing the rest of the time; I had got money—while there I formed the acquaintance of a man named Michael Read—we came over to this country in the same vessel—I believe he was afterwards tried for a burglary and an attempt to murder, and convicted—I did not know anything of his business at all—I would not form an acquaintance unless he was respect
<lb/>able—I returned from America in September, 1873—then I started the Edinburgh affair—it started in London, but the persons defrauded were Scotchmen—it did not have a name—only Street was my companion in it it lasted six days—it was carried on in London at Thornhill Eoad and Regent Square—I made about 300
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. or 400
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. in that time—the next adven
<lb/>ture was in Howard Square, Glasgow; another fraud—systematic invest
<lb/>ments—it lasted about three months—Street, myself, and Bale were in it—we made about 3,000
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. by that—I always did all the work, and took the greatest share of the plunder—the next was Archer and Co., Adam Street, Stand—Benson, Street, Bale, and myself were in it—I should have told
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220105"/>
you that Benson was in the previous fraud, the Glasgow one—Archer and C lasted about six days—it was a system of betting in Prance, fraudulent betting—that is the place where I used to send Street to way
<lb/>lay letters, and I used to remain in the street to waylay Street—I some
<lb/>times went for the letters myself, but generally sent Street to get them, then waylaid him to get the letters from him—we made about 4,000
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. in the six days in the Strand—the scheme was my invention, carried out by Benson—Benson used to translate the articles into French and write the French correspondence—that was the fraud where Street was taken into custody by Druscovich—then Archer and Co., after Street was given into custody and taken to Scotland Yard, was moved from London to Brighton, notice being given to the Post Office authorities in London to forward all correspondence to Archer and Co. to a certain address in Brighton—it lasted there about a week—we received there something under 1,000
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>.—then as far as England is concerned Archer and Co. col
<lb/>lapsed, we carried it on in West Regent Street, Glasgow—we made about 8,000
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. there, defrauding foreigners—the profits were shared almost equally by Benson, myself, Street, and Bale—Bale's share came to about 1,100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>.—the next thing was Walters and Murray, insurances against losses on the turf—we did not derive any profit from that, because the remittances were all stopped at the post office, and the accounts that we sent for advertisements were detained by the St. Petersburg police—we made use of Savory to get a number of gentlemen to go before the secretary to the post office to say that one of our companions, Montague, was a respectable man, in order to get the letters—Savory had 10
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. for getting Lord Clinton to come up—I do not know whether he pocketed the 10
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. or gave it to Lord Clinton to come up and identify Montague—I think I gave Savory about another 5
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. for getting Colonel Chamberlain to appear to give the same false testimony—also a sovereign to somebody else—I think Walters settled with Dr. Owen Evans, and I think he had 5
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. or 10
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. to be a witness at the application before the Lord Mayor for the parcels, and to appear at the General Post Office and say he knew Montague as a respect
<lb/>able man—that was false—Walters also settled with a Captain Berkeley—I cannot answer that the amounts I am giving you are ail correct; I am giving them as near as I can—Savory got them to come—I was privy to it—I was to pay Savory about 5
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>.—the solicitor, Mr. Stokes, of Chancery Lane, took them before the secretary, except Lord Clinton—I know Daniel Porch and George Manning—Berkeley gave Meiklejohn informa
<lb/>tion, that his (Berkeley's) name was improperly used by me—Berkeley was induced to meet me at Elphinstone's wine-shop in Holloway—that was a scheme of myself and Meiklejohn to get his letters—I do not know of his being induced to come by means of false telegrams—Walters and Murray were afterwards apprehended on warrants—no revolvers were used at the interview with Berkeley, nor knuckledusters, nor bludgeons, nor anything of the sort—Porch gave us the papers; they were thrown on the fire and destroyed by Waiters—Berkeley subsequently informed against us all, and warrants were issued—Walters and Murray were acquitted of the charge of assault and then re-arrested—Berkeley swore falsely—I would not do that—the City of Paris Loan was the next fraud of Benson, Bale, and myself—it was Benson's invention—that was a loss—it existed about a week, and was carried on at Dover and in London—the De Goncourt was the next fraud—I and my creatures bribed the
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220106"/>
prisoners and Von Tornow with reference to the cab inquiry at the Mid
<lb/>land, the police in Scotland Yard and in America, the warders in New
<lb/>gate, in the House of Detention, and at Millbank, as well as the Post Office Inspectors Jebb and Godwin, and Inspector Bailey of the City Police, and a good many more who have been mentioned by me at the police-court, but not to-day.

<hi rend="italic">Monday, October</hi> 29
<hi rend="italic">th</hi>, 1877.

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-359" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-359" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-359" type="surname" value="KURR"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-359" type="given" value="WILLIAM"/>WILLIAM KURR</persName> </hi>. (
<hi rend="italic">further cross-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. WILLIAMS</hi>). When I was in the House of Detention Benson and I were in frequent communica
<lb/>tion by letter—not personally—I told you that I could tamper with the locks of the cells at the police-station, but I did not—I communicated with Benson at the House of Detention by putting notes behind the officers' heels—I also communicated by means of perforated zinc with my visitors; not with Benson—my visitors were a man named Hines and another named Higgins, who was one of the witnesses I called to support my perjured
<hi rend="italic">alibi</hi>—I was forty days in the House of Detention—I was in communication with Benson only occasionally during that time, extending over about thirty days, perhaps—I was in Newgate before my trial from February 10th to April 16th—I communicated with Benson by letter in Newgate through the solicitor Mr. Humphreys and his clerk—I swear I wrote on my solicitor's instructions, and told my solicitor to show it to Benson—that happened about ten times, perhaps—I also gave Benson letters in chapel—I also communicated with the outside world from Newgate with Colkett, who is my brother-in-law, Street, Higgins, Hines, Meiklejohn, Brown, and Hood—I don't recollect any one else—I sent out of Newgate about ten letters, perhaps, to these different parties before my conviction—I passed them out by a solicitor—a pseudo-soli
<lb/>citor—I invented a solicitor; he was Hood—some of my letters to Benson were written in ordinary language and some in slang—some could only be understood by Benson and myself—I had written to Street as "Dear Parry" while I was in Newgate—I did not write to him that Iwas offered two "stretches" instead of ten to give information against the "coppers"—two "stretches" meaning two years—of course I know what you mean—you ask me if I have written in slang, and that is a slang term;—I have not sent any letter or paper out of Millbank since my conviction—I swear I have not sent a piece of paper out to Fred Hines charging Street with having given up one of my letters written out of Newgate to the defendants—I have not written any such letter, or that I would give Meiklejohn a great deal more "Tea-garden stuff"—I know what "Garden stuff" means—not "Tea-garden stuff"—"Garden-stuff" is a slang term for giving information to the police of any stolen property—I know nothing about a piece of paper addressed to Froggatt left at a barber's shop at Thornhill, Barnsbury, since my conviction—I swear amongst the letters I wrote in Newgate I wrote one which was produced at the trial purporting to come from Bale's father—this is it (
<hi rend="italic">produced</hi>)—it was found on Benson in Newgats—I believe Bale has no father—it was to be sent to Benson's father in order to get him to assist his son—that was not a forgery—it is a draft of it—it is a fictitious document—it was passed to Benson for his approval before it was sent out, and was subsequently found on him and taken away—I can imitate some handwriting—Meiklejohn's letters are impossible to forge—I have therefore imitated none—I said before the
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220107"/>
magistrate that I kept Meiklejohn's letters endorsed—you suggested "sorted and docketed"—I keep every paper—I had no intention in keeping them or hiding them under the boards—I kept a lot of things under the boards—I kept my tax papers under there—I didn't say I usually kept them there—I said before the magistrate "I have attempted to deceive one court by perjury," by other witnesses, I said; I did not commit perjury myself—I did not go in the box myself to do so—those were not my words—they were the words of whoever was examining me, and I said "Yes" to it—I did not say "I attempted to deceive my counsel on the trial and I instructed perjured witnesses to be called"—I said "to deceive the jury," and the magistrate said the words "and the jury "should be added—I did not want to deceive the counsel—it was the jury—we will leave it "the counsel and the jury"—I said "I contemplated perjury the night of my arrest"—that was to induce Monteith to commit perjury, and the next day I contem
<lb/>plated perjury again by inducing Flintoff to commit perjury—I say that I connived at Mr. Froggatt's bringing a false charge of perjury against Flintoff, when I knew that he was speaking the truth; but I knew at the same time it would end in nothing—I also suggested to him to get Savory to commit perjury against Flintoff, although, I knew Flintoff to be an innocent man—four or five witnesses were called to prove that I was at Sandown races on 31st August—they were called at my suggestion, all to swear what was false—I swore before the magistrate that Chief Inspector Clarke had also perjured himself to serve me—I say that I induced Clarke to commit perjury; that was true—Clarke was called on our trial at the latter part of one day, and was asked if he had seen me at Sandown on 31st August, and he said before he could answer accurately he must refer to his book—next morning he appeared with Ms book, and guided by that book he swore that he saw me on 31st August at Sandown—I mean to say that between night and morning I induced Clarke to make that perjured statement, I being in Newgate—I sent out my instructions—Clarke was in the witness-box about four in. the afternoon, and was recalled about twelve next morning—I had sent my instructions out previously to that, at ten in the morning before he was examined—I did not swear before the magistrate that the
<hi rend="italic">alibi</hi> occurred to me when Clarke was in the witness-box—I swear that—I had sent out my instructions, and I have identified the very document that I sent—I say now that the
<hi rend="italic">alibi</hi> did not occur to me while Clarke was in the box—I don't recollect swearing such a thing; if I did it was wrong—I will swear I did not—the
<hi rend="italic">alibi</hi> referred to the other men—I have given that evidence before, and it is true that is what I mean—I said before the magistrate that it was my brother-in-law Colkett that I sent to Clarke—I don't of course know who saw him—the other persons I got to support
<hi rend="italic">my alibi</hi> were William "Wiggins, James Griffin, a Mr. Clark, the proprietor of the Crown Brewery, in Sutton Street, Clerken-vvell—they were all communicated with on the same document—I wrote out full instructions, which I gave to Mr. Humphrey's clerk to give to Colkett, at ten in the morning, the day Clarke was first called—I contem
<lb/>plated corroborating Clarke by other persons—I thought of that at ten in the morning, and also when Clarke was in the witness-box—I mean to suggest that I sent out instructions through my solicitor to get perjured witnesses—when I first met Meiklejohn he suggested to me to start a
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racing firm—I had never seen him to speak to before; that was at the second interview, in the presence of Murray; Murray heard it—I occa
<lb/>sionally backed horses for Meiklejohn, or laid bets for him—the 500
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. I gave him was not a sum of 400
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. that I lent Meiklejohn, and which he repaid to me—I was constantly in the habit of meeting different detectives at race meetings, and talking to them—I frequently gave them informa
<lb/>tion, racing information, not any other kind of information—I should not betray a friend, or I should have had my liberty before this—I have been offered my liberty if I would betray my friends—I don't know whether I shall get my liberty or not—I swore before the magistrate that I hoped to get a remission of my sentence, and that was the reason I gave my evidence; that is not betraying a friend—I know a man called
<hi rend="italic">Flash</hi> Fred—I have seen him on race-courses—I did not give information to the police about him—I know
<hi rend="italic">Steve</hi> Raymond, he was taken into custody for forgery—I did not give information to Meiklejohn about him, or where he was to be found—he was taken into custody by Palmer—I don't know where; it was in the neighbourhood of the Blue Coat Boy public-house—he had come up from the country—on my oath I did not betray him; the man who betrayed him was Meiklejohn's friend, Burke—Meiklejohn had intro
<lb/>duced Burke to me—he is dead—Meiklejohn told me to send Raymond in the country, because Shore had got a warrant—he did go into the country, and came up again, and was then taken into custody—I never personated a detective—I remember Coletso, he represented himself to Benson as a man of means, not to me or in my presence—I incurred certain expenses in telegraphing abroad to find out, and did find out, that he was a swindler—I never saw Coletso in Benson's presence—I did not represent myself as a detective in that matter—I went to the Midland Hotel to get the money, but I never said who I was—I went to get back 16
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>., the cost of the tele
<lb/>grams to Galveston, Texas—I certainly did not on that occasion represent myself as a detective—I did not at any time tell Meiklejohn that I had got certain blank cheques on certain banks, or ask him to go the banks and see what they would give to get the cheques back—I remember asking Meiklejohn if he would give me some Bank of England cheques, and he said he would—I never gave him any blank cheques—I did not represent to Meiklejohn that I knew where the Gainsborough picture was, and could give information about it—I told him that I did not believe the picture was ever stolen—if Benson has sworn that I represented myself as a detective in the Coletso affair, that is untrue—before I was examined at Bow Street I gave perhaps thirty or forty written statements to the Trea
<lb/>sury—I have given one long one since my examination at Bow Street—, that was in instalments, I cannot write 600 or 700 pages of foolscap in one day—I suppose there were about forty instalments altogether, more or less; it was all in one narrative—I have not had any interview with anybody in the prison since my examination at Bow Street—I made up my mind when I gave my evidence to say all I was asked, about anybody—I don't know whether I mentioned at Bow Street that Meiklejohn had told me he had changed a note in the name of Turner, at Manchester—it is perfectly true—probably I did not state it to the magistrate—I know I told the Treasury so—I don't know that I did not say it at Bow Street—I don't know that after I was examined a man was called who proved that Meiklejohn had changed a note in the name of Turner at Manchester; this is the first time I have heard of it—
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I believe I did not not say anything at Bow Street about Meiklejohn calling the De Goncourt fraud a medley or a muddling story—I was not asked—I said it in my statement—I don't know that Benson said it after I had been examined—I have not communicated with the outer world" since I have been in Millbank—I am under the charge of the principal warder—the interview between Benson and Clarke at the Langham Hotel lasted about twenty minutes—I put myself in the bedroom to hear what passed; the door was shut—I was to hear through the keyhole—I did not put my ear there, but I judged that would be the simplest way for the sound to pass through—I heard some of it; a small portion—I hare told you a very small portion of a good many other twenty minutes, if I told you all it would take me three months—I have told you the whole that I remember of what I heard—the De Goncourt scheme was my in
<lb/>vention, the actual scheme was invented on the 5th August, at my house—the outline of the scheme I had known for some time, but I wrote the article on Saturday; the draft of it—I communicated the scheme to Benson on his return from Dover, that would be on the Sunday, at my house, but I commuuicated with him, I think, at his house—I don't know whether it was first communicated to him at his house or mine; it was either at mine or his.
<hi rend="italic">Q.</hi> "When did you first discover that Yonge was Benson?
<hi rend="italic">A.</hi> I did not know it until I was told by Clarke, about the 17th November, 1876; up to that time I did not know that Yonge was Benson, who had been convicted of forgery on the Lord Mayor—I don't know now that he has been convicted of forgery; he was convicted of fraud, not forgery.
<hi rend="italic">Q.</hi> You did not think your scheme was a forgery, did you?
<hi rend="italic">A.</hi> Nor did you; I did not, simply by your advice—I did not believe at the time that I had committed forgery—I gave 10
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. to Von Tornow on 11th October, and 5
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. the Christmas before, at the Oxford Arms—no one was present—we went into a public-house in Judd Street—there was a potman there present—I don't know whether he saw it or not—I gave it him all in gold—when I was taken into custody I had a loaded revolver on me—I did not anticipate that I was going to be taken into custody—I did not tell Mr. Pollard that at the time I was arrested I was going to meet Sawyer; I said I was going to meet Clarke—I did not tell Mr. Pollard that Sawyer and Froggatt wanted me to let them have the 3,000
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. of Clydesdale bank notes that they might pay them into a bank in their own names, and hold them for me, nor that I had told them I would take time to consider with my friends, and that I felt sure they meant to stick to the money, and that under those circumstances, and fear
<lb/>ing that Sawyer knew too much of my affairs, I had made an appoint
<lb/>ment to meet them that Sunday night for the purpose of handing him the notes—I told Mr. Pollard that the appointment was to take place at an empty house—I did not say with Sawyer alone—I did not tell him that the appointment was for Sunday night; I said Monday—I had no ap
<lb/>pointment, only with Clarke; nor did I say so—I said I had made an appointment with Sawyer at an empty house—that was true—I was carrying the revolver to protect myself—I was in the habit of carrying 6,000
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. or 7,000
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. about me, and jewellery—I was afraid of being robbed, that was the reason I carried the revolver, no other reason.
<hi rend="italic">Q.</hi> Did you tell Mr. Pollard, in connection with that meeting with Sawyer at the empty house, that you had made up a parcel of old newspapers and a cashbox; that as you were leaving your house with your companions
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you were arrested, and that you said "Thank God I was arrested"?
<hi rend="italic">A.</hi> Certainly not—I told him that I had intended to make up a parcel of newspapers, not that I had done so, and had taken them with me to meet sawyer.

<hi rend="italic">Gross-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. STRAIGHT</hi>. Prior to my meeting Druscovich in April, I thought it very desirable to have him in my pay—at that time Meiklejohn had intimated to me that Druscovich was rather a difficult person to approach—prior to April, 1876, I had never spoken to Drus
<lb/>covich—I knew the position that he filled at Scotland Yard, and that he had been in the service a number of years, and that he was a foreigner Benson was never present at any interview that I had with Druscovich—I remember an occasion when I and Benson and Meiklejohn were in a cab together, after the 60
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. loan—Meiklejohn asked Benson if he knew how Druscovich had been
<hi rend="italic">squared</hi>—Meiklejohn said he did not know I can't remember whether Meiklejohn said that one Sunday evening, early in the spring of that year, while he and I were at a public-house, a message was sent to him that he was wanted immediately—I am inclined to think it was said—it is scarcely correct to say that he said—when he got home he found Druscovich—he said that he went home and a message was left, and he came out to meet me, and Druscovich called in the meantime, and Druscovich was sent over to him; it is almost to the same effect, but not exactly as you put it—he did not say he had found Druscovich at his house—he said that Druscovich was in great dis
<lb/>tress, and that he wanted 60
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. or he was a ruined man—that Druscovich bad told him that he had backed a bill for his brother—he did not say that he said to Druscovich "I have got the very man; I have just left him"—he told Benson something to the effect that he had replied "Heis a friend of mine, and is an owner of racehorses, and a perfect gentleman, who will lend the money"—of course I might miss a word here and there in the jolting of the cab; the substance of it is correct—the first interview I had with Druscovich was on the 9th April, in Fentiman Road; the second was on the 10th August, at the Oriental Restaurant—that is the empty house—the next was on 13th April, at Ascot—I spoke to him there, but nothing in reference to this matter—the next was at the Swan at Stock well; the only date I can give you for that was about three days after his return from Jersey, in August—to the best of my belief it was the latter end of August—it was the day of the date of the letter that I received from Meiklejohn, that will fix the date—it may have been in September—it was earlier than September 20th—the next occasion was on the 25th, at the Northumberland Hotel; the next was on the 26th, under the arch in Craven Street, Strand; the next was the 27th, at the Midland Hotel, that was when he came up from Derby—I had gone down to Derby on the morning of the 27th—Benson came back that night—I had left at eight, and came back by the 5.10—the next occasion was on the 30th, first at the Kentish Town platform, and then at the public-house—the next, I think, was on 16th November, in the South Lambeth Road, not far from where he lives—the next time was at Dick's Hotel, on 31st October—that was before the other—the next was on 1st November, at the Northum
<lb/>berland Hotel—I have omitted one interview, on 23rd of October, at New
<lb/>market—the next was 5th November, at Edinburgh—then comes the 16th or 17th November, in the South Lambeth Road—I do not recollect any other meeting—when before the magistrate I did not say that prior to
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the loan of 60
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. Meiklejohn told me that he had told Druscovich that he could not lend him the money, but he would get
<hi rend="italic">Bill</hi> Kurr to do so, and that thereupon Duscovich said "Will he keep his mouth shut?" and that Meiklejohn said "Oh yes; I always go to him if I want money"—I included it in my statement—I did not say one word about it to the magistrate—I did not make use of any such expression as this before the magistrate—"It just came in nicely, and saved us a lot of trouble"—I am quite sure the 60
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>., I gave Druscovich was in six 10
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. notes—Drus
<lb/>covich said "Shall I give you an acknowledgment?"—I had previously spoken to Meiklejohn about an acknowledgment being given—Meikle
<lb/>john said he would not agree to it—I did not take one because he advised not—he did not say why—the acknowledgment I had wanted was an I. O. U. or a promissory note, but I never suggested any kind—when before the magistrate I did not say one word about asking Meikle
<lb/>john at the Ludgate Hill Restaurant, "What did Druscovieh say?"—I did not say before the magistrate that Meiklejohn told me that Drus
<lb/>covich had said to him that he was afraid of walking down with "Bill" for fear of "Old Clarke"—I did not say that Meiklejohn had told me that he thereupon said to Druscovich "Don't be a b——fool; Bill has got them all right at our place and in the City too"—I did not say one word about having said to Meiklejohn "I did not want you to tell him about Bailey," and that thereupon Meiklejohn had said "Oh, it don't matter a d——"—I was not in the habit of using the Swan public-house prior to meeting Druscovich there at the latter end of August or the begin
<lb/>ning of Sept. 1876—I suppose I may have been there twice or three times before—I should say that I had not driven there in my gig with my man Goldie onmore than three occasions—I did notknow the landlord—I used the public parlour, the door of which is perhaps three yards from the bar—when Druscovich and I met at the Swan we had something to drink—I do not think it was champagne—I do not recollect what it was—a waiter served us—I think that waiter had been there on the former occasions when I went to the Swan—I went there before to be introduced by Meiklejohn to Jebb and Godwin, the postmen—with regard to that interview I did not say, when before the magistrate, one word about Druscovich saying to me "I will write to you in such a way that no one will understand but you and I," and that it was to be in the name of Montgomery—it was on the 26th of September that I received the letter from Druscovich—I could not identify a telegram in the writing of Druscovich shown to me the other day—I have never seen Drus
<lb/>covich write—at the time I received the letter I did not wish to get Druscovich in my power—I wanted to get him into my pay, to give me information—there is not much difference in the words—I did not keep his letter because he said "Bring this with you"—I did not copy it, because I had no wish to do so—I met Druscovich in North
<lb/>umberland Avenue the same morning the letter came—our letters crossed, making the same appointment—I was not then in my gig—I met him before, on the 25th, when I was in my gig; Street was with me—it was not Bale, I am quite sure it was Street—it was about four on the 25th when I met him, and exactly ten on the morning of the 26th—I remem
<lb/>ber the clock striking as he came up—I do not recollect whether in my information I swore that Bale was with me in the gig—it was not so—it ""as Street—I do not think I mentioned when before the magistrate in
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reference to my conversation with Meiklejohn at Derby that Meiklejohn said "Have you seen Druscovich?" and I replied "Yes, but I can get no information from him"—I did not say before the magistrate "I got all the news from the old man Clarke," or that Meiklejohn replied "We will know how to do all the work when the tug comes"—nor did I say that he asked me "How does the old man take it—does he funk it at all?"—or that he replied "Yes, he did; and he called my attention to the fact of leaving the places suddenly," and that Meiklejohn said
<hi rend="italic">"You</hi> have left all the joints"—or that Meiklejohn made use of the expression that Superintendent Williamson was a calf, and would not tumble to it in 1,000 years—the interview at the Midland Hotel was at half-past eight in the evening—I had used the hotel before—I did not know the young lady at the bar—I do not know that I spoke to her; I might have said "Good evening" as I passed through the bar to the dining-roon—rt had two Lotties of champagne brought in by the same waiter by whom I had been waited upon before or since—I should know him again, I think—if ho was placed among a number of men I could pick him out—when I was before the magistrate I did not say one word about Druseovicli having said "There's no mistake, Bill, you've got a clever fellow behind you; talk about Victor Hugo, I never read such French in my life; he's the best French scholar in England"—I did not say before the magistrate that Meiklejohn said ""What did they say when they read them?" and that Druscovich replied "The Countess's brother said 'Mon Dieu' con
<lb/>tinually"—I do not recollect whether I said before the magistrate that I asked "Have you got any warrants?" and that Druscovich said "We have got them out to-day"—I did not say that I asked in conversation "Who granted them?" and that Druscovich replied "Mr. Knox," and that Mr. Knox had said to him "Don't be particular whom you bring before me"—I don't think I said before the magistrate that Druscovich asked me "Have you been seen at any of the places," and that I said "No"—it was at twelve at noon on 28th September I saw Meiklejohn at the King Lud—I had never before used the public-house to which we went form the Kentish Town station—if I were taken there I could point it out—the landlord noticed our conversation, and put in the word Newmarket, and I said something about cattle market—I did not mention before the magistrate that Druscovich said in the public-house "What did you want to send that telegram to Newmarket for?"—I did not men
<lb/>tion that I had sent a telegram—I did not mention before the magistrate that after the interview Meiklejohn said "When are you going to pay him?" meaning Druscovich—I never in Druscovieh's presence addressed him as Dustman or the Contractor—I did not say before the magis
<lb/>trate that Druscovich said he had satisfied Abrahams in an argument he had with him—I did not mention this "Somebody has mentioned your name to him"—he said "I told him the cabman had seen you, and we could not do any more—the editor of a paper told him about you"—I said "The editor of what paper?"—Druscovich produced a letter from his pocket with William Kurr in pencil on the back—I produced 3 copy of the
<hi rend="italic">Sportsman</hi> from my pocket, and pointed to it, and Meikle
<lb/>john nodded—Meiklejohn was present—Druscovich had shown him the paper at Dick's Hotel—the editor's name was Ashley; I don't know that he knows me"—upon the occasion when I gave Druscovich 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. and the jewellery, 15
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. of the money was in notes, and the rest in gold—that
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220113"/>
was after I had left the 200
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. at Meiklejohn's—I think I gave the jewellery into-his own hands—it was a necklet and locket with a carbuncle and small diamond in the centre—the necklet and locket were of gold—it Tras a suggestion of Benson's that I should give it—Druscovich had never mentioned it to me—I do not know who it was for, I gave it him to do what he liked with—I got the cigar bos into which I put the 200
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. from my own house; it had. held 100 cigars—I purchased it of my brother-in-law Colkett—I left it at Meiklejohn's house, because it saved me making an appointment with Druscovich—I had a great deal of difficulty in meeting Druscovich—the 200
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. was all in gold, placed in a bag, and wrapped up in a newspaper, so that it would fill up the box—I had to pass Druscovich's door in going to Meiklejohn's—it was at the last meeting but one, at the Duke of York steps at the end of November or beginning of December, 1876, that Clarke told me about the telegram I had sent to Druscovich in the name of Meiklejohn—there was merely an arrangement between me and Meiklejohn to get the numbers of the notes that were stopped—there was no arrangement made as to how many of them were to be stopped beforehand—I believe there is a stoppage book at the Bank of England—I knew that they entered stopped notes in a book—Druscovich was mainly instrumental in shutting up Archer and Co.—he had the case of Barrett and Co. of Dover, but it had been already stopped by the French government—I do not know if he stopped the letters being forwarded from Dover—we never got the letters—my first communication to the Treasury was in April or May, and in consequence Mr. Pollard came to see me in Newgate.

<hi rend="italic">Cross-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. BESLEY</hi>. My father died in 1873—he had amassed some little property—I was twenty-one the previous October—Mrs. Colkett is my sister—Mr. William Price, of 38, Walbrook, was my father's solicitor, and continued to be so after his death—my brother Frederick was not of-age when my father died—I heard all the evidence Mr. Price gave on my trial; it was correct—my father was not acquainted with any of my frauds, and I kept Mr. Price wholly ignorant of them—I knew that there were proceedings in bankruptcy in reference to Benson in Sept., 1876—I took Benson to Mr. Price and induced him. to act as his solicitor and supplied him with 500
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. for the purpose, but it was unsuccess
<lb/>ful and the money was returned—I know that Street went once only to Mr. Price—Street proposed to prove on a betting transaction, but Mr. Price refused to allow it to be done—on the last day of Oct., 1876, Mr. Price mentioned to me that if the proposal to close Tonge's bankruptcy tras accepted and I was the trustee to pay 1,050
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>., I might be examined in the Bankruptcy Court, and it might cost me some trouble, and I then said that I would not appear, and Street was put in as the trustee paying 1,050
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. to settle the creditors—Street first knew of the De Groncourt frauds in Sept.; it was earlier than 29th Oct., at all events—Mr. Price did not even know that I backed horses in a legitimate way—I was interested in a public-house before my father's death; it was in Colkett's name, and was the Oxford Arms, Halliford Street, Islington—I was not interested in the Angel—I remember two persons being murdered in 1872 in a shop in the neighbourhood of Hoxton, which was discussed at the Angel, Islington—I saw Inspector Palmer there, and saw his name in the paper. as having charge of the case—that is one of the occasions I speak to of having seen him—a person was with him; I do not know whether he
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220114"/>
was a detective or not—in 1874 the Oxford Arms was still kept by Mr. Colkett, but was my property—I read in the newspapers that Mr. Ireton who went by the name of Day, had a place of business nearly opposite the Oxford Arms—at that time I had my horses put up at the Oxford Arms, and I saw Palmer there with other officers two or three days suc
<lb/>cessively; he was inquiring of my brother-in-law's potman whether he could identify Day—there was a charge afterwards against Day—I cannot be certain whether I told him that I was the person really interested in the public-house; I may have—the charge against Day was in reference to some indecent pictures—Palmer was accompanied by Sergeant Lambert or Dudley on the two occasions when Day's house was watched—Day's business I believed was the only thing that brought Palmer there—I have seen Palmer doing duty at race meetings where I was betting with gentlemen, members of Tattersall's and others, paying when I lost and taking when I won—I was never a "welcher"—I betted legitimately, and in all those transactions I was Wm. Kurr and nothing else, and kept to myself and my confederates all connection with these frauds—Street is about my age—Bale and I were educated at the same school—Street was an exceedingly clever penman; he can imitate every person's writing—at my trial I saw a document which wasw ritten by Street, put into Mr. Chabot's hands, who swore that it was my writing—I saw Miss Palmer, who kept the house where Street lodged in 1876, 25, Dover Street—Raymond was sought for to be returned by extradition warrant from America and tried for forgery—he did go out of town—I had nothing to do with enticing him back to London—I had nothing to do with taking him in custody—Palmer took him; he was sent to New York and ac
<lb/>quitted—about Oct., 1876, I was employed in the service of Krampo
<lb/>wiski, and received from him numerous letters and telegrams—he was connected with a private inquiry office carried on by Mr. Levy—Krampo
<lb/>wiski communicated to me all he knew—I paid him 5
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. to go to
<hi rend="italic">Mi.</hi> Abrahams—Funnell was employed by Mr. Levy—I have seen Krampo
<lb/>wiski in Street's company—Street had two brothers in London—at all the race meetings I attended I paid and took in a lawful way as far as betting may be lawful—I ran racehorses, which I had kept a little less than tiro years—I remember running a galloway at Croydon when Palmer was there—in'the letter addressed "W. Grif Ford, Esq., Cynan Cottage, Bath Road, Leamington," the words "P. has left for America," refer to
<hi rend="italic">Poodle—I</hi> guessed that it meant Palmer; whenever I guessed I was correct—you have given me a wrong letter—"P. has left for America" means Palmer—in this letter of 27th June I see no "P." at all, it is "Wilson has seat a letter to B."—it does not refer to Palmer.

<hi rend="italic">Cross-examined by</hi> Mb. Clarke. I think I went into Clarke's house three times, on Sept. 26, on Nov. 4, and I cannot give you the other date—I did not swear last Friday that I went into Clarke's house on the evening of 10th Oct.—I saw him outside—I did not say on Friday "I saw Clarke about 7 in his house in Great College Street"—I said "Near his house"—I am unable to fix the date of the third time—I saw him inside his house, but it was shortly after he returned from abroad with Von Howard—on 26th Sept., a young girl, Clarke's daughter probably, opened the door to me—I cannot recollect who opened the door on 4th Nov., hut it was always opened by a female—on 10th Oct. I sent a telegram to Clarke before I went to his house that evening from Brighton station—my
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220115"/>
memory is distinct as to the date; there is no question about it—I repre
<lb/>sent that I saw Clarke that evening about 7 o'clock; the conversation lasted about twenty minutes, and as the result of the conversation I represent that I met Von Tornow next morning at the Midland station and bribed him—I had given money to Von Tornow the previous Dec. ten months before—that was the only occasion on which I myself had given him money—I can distinctly say that I visited Clarke on 25th Sept.—about the beginning of 1875 I was concerned in the swindle with Walters and Murray—I was aware of their arrest as soon as it took place—they employed a solicitor to defend them, Mr. L. Lewis—I was not in. communication with him—I was not in London when they were arrested, I-was at Shanldin—that was about Feb., 1875—I remained there about two days, and was then in London for one day only while the proceedings were going on, and did not communicate with the solicitor for the defence at all—I got to know what reports had been made by the officers at Scotland Yard—I knew that Clarke was in charge of their prosecution and heard occasionally the reports he made in the Waltera and Murray frauds—they were remanded for a time—I had not then a letter written by Walters and Murray, Meiklejohn had it when I first became aware of its existence—I knew that Clarke, during the adjournment of the assault case, obtained a warrant for the arrest of Walters and Murray in the turf fraud matter—I do not know that he endeavoured to prevent their being admitted to bail—I had means of knowing what Clarke was doing, but did not always take steps to ascertain—I had been a partner in that firm, and two of my partners were under charge—I did not interest myself suffi
<lb/>ciently to learn that Clarke was interfering to prevent their being admitted to bail; I was not in London—Walters and Murray absconded, I think,. on June I—Murray came to England in Dec, 1875; they had been staying at New York, not at Havre—I believe they went by the French, boat; I do not know how they came back—I do not know that they came over from Havre to England in Sept., 1875—Murray has stayed here ever since—I was at Sandown races about six different days in 1875—Eowe was then training racehorses for me—in August, 1876, I had two race
<lb/>horses, one called Chance and the other Coroner, in Rowe'r stables in training—those stables are nearly opposite Mr. Griffin's, the Red Lion, at Tadworth—I was there a week or a little more before the Leger of 1876—I have seen Mr. Rowe and Mr. Griffin together at Sandown Park races—I have seen Wiggins there, but have not been with him there—I went there with him earlier than July, and saw Mr. Geo. Clarke, of the Crown Brewery—I do not know the name of the house Mr. Wiggins put up at; it was in Esher—I believe I have seen Griffin and Rowe at Esher, but I do not know that I have seen them together—the place is on the high road—there was only one meeting a month at Sandown in 1876, about eight meetings, perhaps; they all lasted two but none of them "' three days—there was a meeting on 31st Aug., 1876, but I did not go to it at all—I mean to tell the jurv that Rowe, Griffin, George Clarke, and Wiggins joined with Inspector Clarke at my suggestion to commit perjury about having seen me at Sandown Park, and from written instructions which I sent out through my solicitor, but Mr. Griffin may have made a mistake—I do not know that he committed perjury, but he swore wrong—I concocted this
<hi rend="italic">alibi</hi> on the Sunday previous'Jo the false evidence being given—I had discovered that the meeting was really on the same day that
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220116"/>
Flintoffs agreement was signed, and then it came into my head to get this
<hi rend="italic">alibi</hi> sworn to—Flintolf says that the agreement was signed at 9 in the morning, but I say it was nearly 10—when I made my first state
<lb/>ment to Mr. Pollard I did not mention Clarke—I was professing to give Mr. Pollard all the information I could about these matters—he asked me whether Clarke was employed, and whether he was an honest man and I said "Yes."

<hi rend="italic">Cross-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. COLLINS</hi>. I lived in Marquess Road about three years—I had a liouse there, and lived there with my wife—I had a seven years' agreement—it is correct what I said before the magistrate, that I first knew Mr. Froggatt the night following Benson's arrest, that up to that time he was not in any way connected with me and my asso
<lb/>ciates, nor has he been connected directly or indirectly with my guilty intimacy with the police—I sent Murray to Mr. Froggatt, seeing his name in the papers as a criminal solicitor—he was to endeavour to recover the two bank notes that Venables, the money-changers, had kept—he was to sue Venables for them—I told Murray to say that he Lad attempted to cash the notes, and they were detained, and Mr. Froggatt was to do his best as a solicitor to recover them; to issue a writ, in fact Mr. Fr ggatt proposed that he should serve both Mr. Venables and Mr. Ahrahimis with a writ to try the question as to whether the notes were illegally detained or not—Murray was then going in the name of Wtlls—I know that Murray deceived Mr. Froggatt about some English bank notes—I know that he told Mr. Froggatt many lies in connection with these bank notes—it was about the 23rd November that I sent Murray to Mr. Froggatt—Murray was taken into custody on the 27th—the first day I saw Mr. Froggatt was the 4th December—he was with Meiklejohn—I think it was between six and seven o'clock—I cannot fix it nearer then about half-past six—I should say it was nearer half-past six than seven—I am speaking of the meeting at the corner of Southampton Row—lean show you how the exact time can be fixed, because it was ten minutes before the time the telegram was sent—I will undertake to swear that it was on the 4th December I saw Meiklejohn—I knew that Mr. Frogatt was not instructed to defend the men at Rotterdam at that time—Mr. Froggatt wrote the draft of the telegram on a piece of paper which he produced from his pocket; I swear that—I have said before that I did not know whether he took it from a pocket-book or not—I recollect that he took it from his pocket—I do not know whether it was the fly-sheet of a letter, or what; I know he took it from his pocket—I did not write to Mr. Ab ahams personally, it was through Stenning—it was perhaps about seven or eight days after I wrote these letters, through Stennidg, thai Mr. Sawyer saw me—I always represented to Mr. Froggatt that Flintofi was a truthful witness—I have told him that Flintoff exaggerated—when I was in the House of Detention I gave Mr. Froggatt, as my solicitor, certain instructions—with the exception of Flintoff's exaggeration I always told Mr. Froggatt he was a truthful witness—this (
<hi rend="italic">produced</hi>) is my hand-writing—I gave him those instructions when I was in the House of Detention—I posted them to him; I am sure of that—these are the instructions I gave: "In reference to Flintoff, will it be wise to cross-examine him now as to who got him to make his statement, which is so diametrically opposite to the one made to the detectives who called on him, wherein he states that he did not know Brooks or Kurr?" (
<hi rend="italic">Thisucs</hi> 
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220117"/>

<hi rend="italic">put in and read at length.</hi>) The words "on the day Flintoff says decamped, I was ill in bed, attended by Dr. Gordon Smith," are not my writing; mine has been written over—I was attended by Dr. Gordon Smith, and also by Mi. Oliver—I sent those instructions by post, through the governor of the prison—Mr. Froggatt had nothing to do with my defence at the trial—I employed some other solicitors, Messrs. Humphreys and Son—I was in communication with them and their clerks for some weeks—I gave them false instructions—I have said that Mr. Froggatt told me he had given 10
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. to the Governor of Rotterdam gaol—I do do not know that that was to provide better food, and that a balance was returned by the governor to the police officer—he said he had given the 10
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. to supply better food—I know that a French directory was left at the lodgings—I can't say whether any clothes were left; I did not take the clothes—they were lelt at my stables by Mr. Froggatt—it is not true that I was ill in bed on 31st August—I believe the 4th December was a muggy sort of evening—I first gave information to the Treasury on 1st May.

<hi rend="italic">Re-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. GORST</hi>. This (
<hi rend="italic">produced</hi>) is the draft of the telegram that was concocted in the street on 4th December—the interview between myself and Mr. Froggatt in the street took place about ten minutes before the telegram was dispatched—I was not then aware that Mr. Froggatt Bad sent a telegram to Rotterdam to say that he was instructed to defend Benson—I had not given him any such instructions—I. had never seen him before—he produced the draft of the telegram from his pocket—I can
<lb/>not recollect whether he got it out of a letter or a pocket-book—these in
<lb/>structions to Holicitor were sent out by me about 7th to 10th, January—I had frequently seen Mr. Froggatt before those instructions were sent out—there was something written in the postscript, I can't say what it was; it is erased; not that I erased it, the erasure is not mine—the name Dr. Gordon Smith, and the other name, are not my writing, and were not on the paper at the time I sent it out—I don't know whose writing it is—when I left the Bridge of Allan I went to Derby, leaving Benson at Leicester—Street came to London in the train with me—I got out at Keutish Town, and took a hansom to a public-house opposite Clerkenwell police court—Street there got out of the cab, and I saw him speak to Palmer for a few moments; he then called me, and I went and joined him and Palmer—Street said to me in Palmer's presence "What about the letter at the Bridge of Allan?"—I said "All right, I will
<hi rend="italic">give it to</hi> Street"—I believe Palmer heard me say that—he said "All right"—the idea of the
<hi rend="italic">alibi</hi> that was concocted at my trial; it first occurred to me on the Sunday—Clarke was examined on Monday, the 16th—these (
<hi rend="italic">produced</hi>) are the instructions I gave to the solicitor's clerk; his name is Coppin, a clerk of Messrs. Humphreys—those instructions were given at ten minutes past ten on 16th April, before Clarke was put into the box. (
<hi rend="italic">These in
<lb/>structions were put in and read.</hi>) I have told Mr. Clarke that in my original statement I said nothing about Clarke, and when I saw Mr. Pollard, of the Treasury, I made no charge against Clarke—when I found that the photograph was in existence, the photograph of the letter that was dated the 4th of April, I gave information to the Treasury—I was not sure whether it was in existence—I referred the Treasury to my friends, who would give them up a copy of the photograph, and they could not find them—"the old man at the Duke of York's Column "mentioned in my instructions, is Clarke.
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220118"/>

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-360" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-360" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-360" type="surname" value="BENSON"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-360" type="given" value="HARRY"/>HARRY BENSON</persName> </hi>. I am 30 years of age—Iwas born and educated in Paris—in 1872 I was convicted of forging a receipt for 1,000
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>., and sentenced to a year's imprisonment—during the time I was in prison I set fire to my bed clothes, and Mas so severely injured by the fire that I came out of prison a cripple, and assumed the name of G. H. Yonge—on the 26th or 27th February, 187-1, I made the acquaintance of William Kurr, by means of an advertisement which appeared in the
<hi rend="italic">Daily Telegraph</hi>—it was an advertisement of his stating that the party advertising required an editor or correspondent of a newspaper to write certain articles on given subjects—I answered that advertisement, and so came into com
<lb/>munication with Kurr—in July or August, 1874, I became associated with him. in a betting fraud that went by the name of Archer—Street and Bale—were associated with us in it—after the Archer and Co. fraud had been broken up, I became acquainted with Walters in October, 1874, and in the autumn of that year joined him and Kurr in establishing another fraud, "Insurance against Turf Losses"—the title in French is "Le Societe Generale contre pnrte"—that lasted about six weeks—there were two offices, one at 25, Moorgate Street, the other at 160 or 161, Gresham House—I never went to these offices myself—it was not a profitable scheme, and was broken up at the end of the year 1874—after that I went to live at Rose Bank, Shanklin, Isle of Wight—I think it was the 16th of January when I went to live there—my housekeeper at Rose Bank was a Mrs. Avis—while I was living at Rose Bank I heard of the arrest of Walters and Murray—Kurr was string with me at the time—he was then going by the name of Medway—I was constantly in communication with Kurr, both before and at the time of Walters' and Murray's arrest—he was implicated in the Walters and Murray fraud, and there was a warrant out against him—he altered his name a little later on, and took that of Gifford—I first communicated with Clarke by means of Mr. Andrews, on the 11th of April, 1875, and in consequence of that communication Clarke came down to the Isle of Wight to see me on the 12th of April, 1875—he arrived at my house between five and six in the evening—we had along interview, four hours—I think he had some whisky and water, I am not sure—I told him my object in asking him to come and see me was to give certain information concerning the turf fraud, the "Insurances against loss," the one Walters and Murray had been arrested for, but that the information I had to give amounted to very little—he stated that he would have come down to have seen me, had he not received my message, inasmuch as he had received from one source anyhow, but he mentioned other sources, certain communications stating that I could give' if I chose certain information respecting this turf fraud—I told him that' the part I had taken amounted simply to the translation of the prospectus, and also to discounting a cheque or draft through my bankers for Murray; no, for Walters, not for Murray, because Murray I did not know—he asked me if that was all—I said "Yes"—I said I should feel very much annoyed if I had to appear as a witness in court, for two reasons: firstly, because I knew so very little; and secondly, that I was a cripple—I said knew very little of Walters, but the little that I did know was not very much in Walters' favour—that from what I had been told from Walters it appeared that Clarke had, so Walters said, been bribed by him, Walters, and that Walters went so far as to say that he had in his possession
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220119"/>
letters of Clarke, one especially winch he had photographed—Clarke said that he knew all about it; that letter which had been photographed was one relating to an appointment Clarke had made with Walters, for the purpose of Walters giving him information concerning a burglary which Lad been committed at a place called Stannard's Mill, I think—I told him that the construction Waiters put upon that letter was very different to the explanation he, Clarke, had just given, that Walters stated that that letter had been written for the purpose of making an appointment with him for quite different purposes, and that Walters, moreover, had positively told me that he, Clarke, had received 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. from Walters after getting a publican's licence for Walters, and stating that nothing was known against him, Walters, when, in reality there had been a previous conviction—Clarke said he would not have been such a fool as to have taken any money from Walters, or to have said that there was notning known against a man when there really was—he denied ever having received a single farthing from Walters—he asked me what construction Walters put upon the letter, and I told him—I told him one of the purposes was that a warrant was out for Walters at the time, so Walters said Clarke had written to him to meet him in order that he might give him the information about the warrant—Clarke asked me where the letter was, and I told him I did not know at the time, that Kurr knew—he asked me who and what Kurr was—he told me that he had a public-house, or was interested in one—I told him that he was one of Walters's dupes—that Kurr was more sinned against than sinning, and although there was a warrant against him I did not think that he was deserving of being arrested—Clarke said that from what he himself had seen he could not find out what part Kurr had taken in the matter—the next morning Clarke asked me what evidence there could be—but during our four hours' interview in the evening I asked him if he would keep me out of the witness-box, and I said that if he would I should be most happy to place a sum of 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. at his disposal—he said that if what I had told him was correct there would be no difficulty whatever in keeping me away, inasmuch as I knew very little, and he could make a report according to what I had told him—I asked him to allow me to make the report myself, and I began dictating, when he interrupted me, and said "You had better leave it to me, I shall be better able to do it than you; I shall say I found you lying prostrate, and the information you had to give was insignificant, and you will hear no more of it"—he passed over my offer of 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>., took no notice of it whatever—I made an appointment the next morning for breakfast—he did not sleep at my house, but came the next morning and breakfasted with me—dnring breakfast I told him that I would find out for him where that letter was, and that if Kurr had it I would make it my business that the letter should be returned to him—I had previously wrapped 20
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. in gold in paper, and I offered him this small parcel—he took it, and said "What is this?"—I said "Simply 20
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>."—he pushed it back, and refused it, and said "No, I will take no money"—I said I should consider myself in his debt, and that if he kept me out of the witness-box I should certainly consider that I owed him a sum of money—I afterwards wrote a draft letter to Clarke, and handed the draft to my housekeeper to copy—she copied it, and it was afterwards sent by post to Clarke—this is the letter (
<hi rend="italic">produced). (Read</hi>: "Scotland Yard, "April 19th, 1875. Dear Sir,—In reply to yours of the 11th inst., I am utterly astonished that you, a stranger, should have heard anything
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220120"/>
of my character, good, bad, or indifferent; but, thank God, I am not afraid of any man, and do not care one pin if all my actions through life were published to the world to-morrow. You have certainly some what excited my curiosity, and I appeal to you as a gentleman to let me know what you have heard about me, and you may depend that I will in no way compromise you. It is quite impossible for me to see you at the Isle of Wight. Yours respectfully, G. Clarke.") That refers to a letter I had written to Clarke on the 13th April, which referred to a statement by Walters that Clarke had written to Walters, and also telling Clarke that reports had been set afloat by Walters concerning himself, to the effect that Clarke had been bribed by Walters—that is what I recollect of the letter—I also received this letter. (
<hi rend="italic">Read</hi>: "Detective Office, April 26th, Dear Sir,—Your letter of the 19th only reached me yesterday, having been absent from London. You must have misunderstood me when at Rose Bank, as I certainly said that my visit was purely official, and that I could not enter into any confidential correspondence respecting the two men walters and Murray, but I did express my astonishment when you told me that the secrets of the office were betrayed by some one, whose name you decline to give. I further said that I should be glad to hear from you on that subject. I am still prepared and anxious to hear on that matter.—Yours respectfully, Gr. Clarke.") I had written a letter to Clarke on the 19th, in which I expressed my astonish
<lb/>ment at having received his first letter, dated the 19th, and stared that he must have misunderstood me; that I wanted to remain a stranger to the whole case, and that I wanted Kurr likewise to be kept out of the matter if possible; that I also wanted information, but only information con
<lb/>cerning myself, but that I was really astonished at the tone of the letter he had addressed to me.—shortly afterwards I had an interview with Clarke at Shanklin, and still later in London—T wrote a letter, which was sent to Clarke on the loth June—this is a copy: (
<hi rend="italic">Read</hi>: "15th June, My Dear Sir and Brother,—We exchanged promises at our last interview. Yours was that would give me an early opportunity of proving my friendship; mine, that I would show you how kindly I feel towards you, and how anxious I am to pay my debt to you. I have also news of great importance to communicate to you about the letter you know. of. I will show you how thoroughly you can trust me. Will you, therefore, oblige me by coining down as soon as possible—Thursday or Friday? By leaving Waterloo at 8 p.m. you can return next morning in time to be in your office by 10. A line from you in return announcing your visit as requested will oblige yours sincerely, G. H. Y. If you do not like to write, merely let me know what time I may expect you, as it is urgent I should see you before Saturday.") I also received this letter: (
<hi rend="italic">Head</hi>: "20, Great College Street, Westminster, June 16th, 1875. No doubt you have heard that the two men, Walters and Murray, did not appear to take their trial and have not been heard of since. I hear they have left the country. I should be glad to see you to talk over the matter, but I cannot spare the time this week. I feel that I want a run out somewhere for a blow. Kurr and Montague have also left the country.—Yours truly, G. Clarke.") I also wrote on 17th June, 1375:" My Dear
<hi rend="italic">Sir</hi>,—Many thanks for your kind letter, but I write to ask you to beg you to come down this week—firstly, because I am anxious to pay my debt towards Mrs. Clarke; secondly, because I know you will have
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220121"/>
cause to be satisfied with some information I have to give you about the letter. In fact, I hope to be able once for all to free your mind on that subject. You want a change, take it here. If you will accept my hospitality I shall be only too happy to make you welcome here for as long a time as you like. Anyhow I should like to see you when at the Masonic, and I am sure you will be satisfied with my friendship and reliability.—Yours sincerely, G. H. Y." Clarke afterwards came to Shanklin about the 22nd or 23rd Jure—before he came I received this letter: "20, Great College Street, Westminster, June 18, 1875. Dear Sir,—Yours to hand, I cannot leave this week, but will endeavour to see you on Tuesday. Why don't you write more particulars?" I believe I also received a telegram—I also wrote this letter: "20th June, 1875. My Dear Sir,—I expect you on Tuesday and reserve all particulars till then. The best train you can take is one leaving Waterloo at 2.10, not 2.15,
<hi rend="italic">via</hi> Stokes Bay. If you wish to do so you can return to London the same evening. Hope to have the pleasure of seeing you on Tuesday. certain.—Yours sincerely, G. H. Y."—Clarke came down earlier than I expected—I think about 1.30, but I am not quite certain—he said Waiters and Murray had absconded from their bail, and I asked him
<hi rend="italic">how</hi> far Kurr was compromised in the matter, and he said that so long as Kurr remained out of the way he did not think that anything would occur to him—he said he was under the impression that Kurr had left the country—I told him that he had not left the country—I asked him if he had heard where Walters was—he said he was under, the impression that he had heard that he was in Havre—I gave Clarke and he took 50
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. in gold, which I had got from the Hampshire Banking Company through a Mr. Frank Cooper of Shanklin, who changed either my cheque or a 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. note—I apologised for not giving him the full amount that I had promised, and stated "It was impossible in a small place like this"—meaning Shanklin—"to get a large sum in gold at a small branch," but inasmuch as I should most likely have a letter to return to him the fol
<lb/>lowing week, I should be only too glad to return it if Kurr, in whose hands I understood it was, would let me, and that I should also give him the additional 50
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. which I considered I owed him—I asked Clarke to let me know whatever took place either concerning myself or Kurr, and I promised likewise to let him know if anything took place which con
<lb/>cerned him—he said he would not let me know unless something very material took place concerning me, but I was to consider the matter at an end, and if anything did take place concerning myself or Kurr he would let me know—I have not kept all the letters I received from Clarke—he wished me to return them, and I did—this is the draft of a letter I wrote and sent to Clarke. (
<hi rend="italic">Read</hi>: "June 24th, 1875. Dear Friend,—According to promise I write a few lines to warn you not to trust the two men whose names are Mitchell and Wood. I am given to understand they are both creatures of Walters', and would very much like to compromise you. They know nothing about you, except what that lying villain has told them, and in the event of their trying to approach you, you can tell them without fear that if they dare propose anything to you you will have them arrested. The letter you wrote to Walters is not in their hands, but in the hands of K., and it is as safe with him as with you. When all the affair is blown over he will restore it to you himself, and
<lb/>I well know he will be happy, through me, to give you every satisfaction. It
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220122"/>
is quite possible that in a day or two, or next week, I shall have to go to London on business, and I hope you will appoint a place and hour where I can see you quierly, unknown to anybody; I shall then have the pleasure of acquitting myself of the balance of my debt towards you. Please return this letter to me. If you wish to ask any questions pray do so without fear, as I have pledged myself to answer them, and return your letter by the next post.—Ever yours faithfully, G. H. Y.") The piece of paper produced is Mr. Clarke's address, to which the letters were sent, given me by Mrs. Avis—it was written by her. (
<hi rend="italic">Read</hi>: "George Clarke, Esq., 20, Great College Street, Westminster, London, S.W.") I saw Clarke again a week or 10 days after the interview of the 23rd, at all events before the 4th July, at Shanklin, at my house, when I gave him 50
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. in notes—I apologised for giving him notes, and told him that as he had not given me any notice when he was coming down I had no alternative but to give him Bank of England notes—he said "Nevermind," and he then asked me for the letter—I told him Kurr bad it—he said "Where is Kurr?"—I said "He is in the house; will you see him?"—he was not in the house, but Mr. Clarke said immediately "No, I will not see him, if I see him I should arrest him"—he said "Why will you not give me that letter back?"—I said "Kurr will not give it to me; he will only give it up himself"—I pressed him to see Kurr—he refused—I got these notes from the Hampshire Banking Company—they were of small denomination', such as 5
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. and 10
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>.—I afterwards received this letter: (
<hi rend="italic">Read</hi>: "20, Great College Street, Westminster, 12th August, 1875. Dear Sir,—Shall be glad to hear if you are likely to be at home on Saturday, as I expect to be in your neighbourhood, and may give you a call—Yours truly, G. Clarke.") I also received these tele
<lb/>grams: "16th August, 1875, from G. Clarke, 20, Great College Street, to Mr. Yonge, Rose Bank, Shankhm. Can be with you by 11 o'clock, if that will do," and "August 16, 1875, from G. Clarke, Ryde, to Mr. Yonge, Rose Bank, Shankin. Rail late. Shall leave here about 12." I saw Clarke that day, the 16th—he referred to the letter; it was principally for the letter that he had come down, and he asked me where Kurr was—I told him that Kurr and myself were going abroad on that day, and that Kurr had promised me that he would return the letter to Clarke himself, but to him only—I asked Clarke if he thought the time had not come when he might see Kurr without any danger to himself—he said no; he preferred not seeing him yet—he asked me if there was any fear of the letter being shown, and I said no—Kurr and I went to Switzerland on the 16th—my servant, William Picard; went with us—we were absent a fortnight—I passed abroad by my own name, Yonge; Kurr went by the name of Gifford—on returning to London I drove to 20, College Street—I had made an appointment with Clarke by telegram from Dover I think, or by letter—my servant got down to knock at the door, but before he could do so Mr. Clarke came out—I asked him to get into the cab, and he did so—I did not drive him far before he got down, but in the cab I asked him what had better be done for Kurr—I asked him first whether he thought the matter was completely over at the Treasury, and that if Kurr did show himself in London would he be arrested—he said he did not know, but he advised that a letter should be sent by Kurr to the Treasury, stat
<lb/>ing
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220123"/>
that he, Kurr, was very much surprised that a warrant should have been issued against him, and that he was here in London prepared to meet any charge that could be brought against him—that would be on the 30th August, between twelve and one o'clock—an appointment was made for the same evening at the Langham Hotel—I then went to the Langham, where Kurr had secured rooms for me, but Kurr went to his house to live—Clarke came about 8 p.m., or a little later—Kurr was in the bedroom—Clarke did not know that—I asked Clarke if he knew Kurr had sent the letter Clarke had advised me Kurr should send—it had been sent—Clarke said he knew a letter had been sent, but he did not know what steps would be taken, or what the Treasury would do—I asked him how long it would be before he would know—he said perhaps he would know the next morning, but he considered the matter was virtually at an end, and that nothing further would be heard of it—I said if the answer from the Treasury was favourable to Kurr, I supposed that he, Clarke, would have no objection to see Kurr—he said "None whatever"—I said "Then of course Kurr would return the letter"—I asked him to make a further appointment with me when I could see him—he said he would let me know as soon as the Treasury had decided what they would do—on that same day, the 30th August, I saw Meiklejohn for the first time, in my bedroom, at the Langham Hotel, at 11.30—Kurr introduced him and me to him by my nickname of Poodle—I told Meiklejohn what I had done during the day with Clarke, that Kurr had written a letter, and that I hoped the matter would be completely at an end—Meiklejohn told me how he became acquainted with Kurr—I saw Clarke twice again, once the same or the following week, at the Langham Hotel, when he told me what had taken place, that the matter was closed—I then asked him if he would see Kurr, and he said he would see him—I forget when the letter was given up—it was between the second and third time that I saw Clarke—Kurr was present on the second occasion. (
<hi rend="italic">Inspector Clarke's report, dated 30th August, was here put in, enclosing a letter from Wm. Kurr to him—dating that he was in London, and ready to meet the charge—which was brought to the station by a man who said that it was given to him in the Strand.</hi>)

<hi rend="italic">Tuesday, October 30th.</hi> 

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-361" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-361" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-361" type="surname" value="BENSON"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-361" type="given" value="HARRY"/>HARRY BENSON</persName> </hi> (
<hi rend="italic">recalled and further examined</hi>). About the time of the interview with Clarke at the Langham Hotel, there was a vacancy in. the police force, caused by the death of one of the inspectors; In
<lb/>spector Davey, I think—Meiklejohn wrote to me about that—I have not got the letter—it was destroyed—I have not seen it for the last two years—I do not know that I should like to say that I saw it destroyed—I last saw it amongst my other papers at my house in Shanklin—I left a number of letters there, and they were destroyed—the person who destroyed them wrote to me, and told me they were destroyed—I gave directions for the letters to be destroyed after I left Shanklin and before my arrest—I did not go to my house afterwards—sometime in September, during a visit to London, when I stayed at the "Westminster Palace Hotel, I told Meiklejohn that I had failed with Inspector Clarke, and that I had nut been able to do what he had requested me—after re
<lb/>receiving Meiklejolm's letter I had written to Clarke—in August or Sep
<lb/>tember, 1875, I had another interview with Clarke, at the Westminster Mace Hotel—the subject of that interview was that certain inquiries
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220124"/>
had been made about me from Shanklin, and that the inquiry had been lodged in his hands—I asked him what the nature of the inquiry was and he told me that Inspector Druseovich had been sent to the French Embassy to make certain inquiries, and that the reply which he had re
<lb/>received was that I was not known—I asked him to tell the inquirer that it would be better for his curiosity not to go too far—I told him that I wished the inquiry to be stopped entirely, as it was giving me a great deal of annoyance—he said that he would do his best, but that he did not intend to compromise himself—Clarke at that time did not know my real name;—he asked about it at this interview—he told me that it was strange that I should be on intimate terms with a man like Kurr—at the first interview he had shown me a letter stating that Yonge was not my name—he then pressed me at this interview to give him my name—I drew out a pocket handkerchief which I had in my pocket and showed it to him—it had a coronet on it—I asked him if he knew what that was, and he said "Yes, it is a princely coronet"—he asked me what the initials stood for, and I told him for the name of Murat—the initial were "G. M."—I saw Clarke again by appointment either in January or February, 1876, at No. 3, Bentinck Street, Cavendish Square—I asked him if he had seen Murray, the man who had absconded from his bail—he said no, he had not seen him, but he knew he was back, and he was informed that Walters was back too—I said so far as Walters was concerned I did not believe he was back, but that I knew Murray had returned—I said that both Kurr and myself
<hi rend="italic">were</hi> anxious that the whole affair should not be revived or reopened, and that if Murray was arrested naturally all the proceedings would have to be gone through again, could he suggest any means with
<lb/>out injuring Murray, whereby Murray should be so much frightened that he should either leave the country or not be seen about—after some little discussion, Clarke said he would insert a notice in the
<hi rend="italic">Police Gazette</hi> to the effect that information was required concerning Murray and Walters, and if any information reached, it was to be immediately for
<lb/>warded to Chief Inspector Clarke, Scotland Yard—by that means nobody could arrest or do anything until Clarke had given the order—that notice was afterwards inserted. (
<hi rend="italic">At the request of Mr. Clarke the witness was re
<lb/>moved from the court while the report of Inspector Clarke and the notice in the Police Gazette were read.</hi>)

<hi rend="smallCaps">SUPERINTENDENT WILLIAMSON</hi> (
<hi rend="italic">re-examined</hi>). The report produced is signed by Inspector Clarke. (
<hi rend="italic">This was dated 18th January</hi>, 1876,
<hi rend="italic">from the Metropolitan Police Officer, Scotland Yard, and purported to report that Walters and Murray, who had absconded from their bail, had recently arrived in England, that it was desirable they should be arrested; and a description of their persons was attached.</hi>) The advertisement inserted in the
<hi rend="italic">Police Gazette</hi> of the 24th January, 1876 (
<hi rend="italic">produced</hi>), is that referred to. (
<hi rend="italic">This was a descrip
<lb/>tion of Walters and Murray, stating that they had absconded from their bail, and were charged with fraud and conspiracy.</hi>)

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-362" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-362" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-362" type="surname" value="BENSON"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-362" type="given" value="HARRY"/>HARRY BENSON</persName> </hi> (
<hi rend="italic">continued</hi>). I saw Meiklejohn in June, 1876, at Nelson's Great Portland Hotel, where I was staying—I told him that 1 had received a letter from Kurr that morning, and that Kurr would not be present at the interview—I asked him whether it was true that a man of the name of Colettso, who had been arrested some time before, had offered him 10,000 dollars to let him free, and whether he would have taken 10,000 dollars if he had given them to him—Meiklejohn said that
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220125"/>
he
<hi rend="italic">had</hi> not offered them to him, that if he had had them he would not have taken them, if he had given him ten times 10,000 dollars he would have arrested him—I asked him what had become of all Colettso's papers he told me they were at Colettso's lodgings, in Pimlico, but that Mr. George Lewis, who had the case in hand, had applied for them to be given up—I asked Meiklejohn if he had seen any of the papers, and he said yes; that there were books and scrip of the Bastrop Coal Company, and cheques on almost all the banks in London—I asked how was it possible that he should have had so many cheques when to my certain knowledge the man had no money—he said he did not know, but that tie cheques were there, and he had gut a number of them in his possession—I told him that it was my intention to go to Egypt, and that if he could give me a number of Bastrop Coal Company scrip in blank; and also a number of those cheques just named, I should feel much obliged to him Meiklejohn said he would do so—subsequently I received from Meikle
<lb/>john two blank scrip of the Bastrop Coal Company, and a number of blank cheques on the London and Westminster Bank, Temple-bar branch, and on the London and County Bank, head office, Lombard Street—all these (
<hi rend="italic">produced</hi>) are documents I received from Meiklejohn a fortnight afterwards at the Langham Hotel—the writing was not upon them then; they were in blank—I asked him how Colettso had been apprehended—I spoke of Colettso at first by the name of Gray, which was his correct name—he said he had two friends in the post-office in tie district in which Colettso lived; that he had obtained a clue to Colettso's whereabouts by opening either a letter which was addressed to Colettso or written by Colettso (I do not know which), and which con
<lb/>tained Colettso's address—he said that he had promised these two friends of his a sum of 50
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>., which was to be payable out of a reward which kd been offered for Colettso's apprehension by the American Govern
<lb/>ment; that he was very much afraid the reward would not be paid, as Colettso was to be brought up before the judge in chambers the follow
<lb/>ing Thursday and discharged, owing to some difficulty which had arisen on the Extradition Treaty—he did not give the names of his two friends—my servant, Pierre Pionchon, came into my service on the 30th September, 1875—he succeeded Picard; not then, but ultimately—I went to Biarritz with Pionchon on the 9th July, 1876—I returned by way of Paris, where I was on the 18th July—I stayed at the Hotel Vieullemont, in the name of the Count de Montague—this is my hotel bill (
<hi rend="italic">produced</hi>)—I stayed there until the evening of the 22nd—on Thursday morning, the 21st, Kurr and Bale arrived in Paris, and stayed at the same hotel—we all three came back together to Cannon Street station—when we got there we met Meiklejohn by appointment—we went to the Cannon Street Hotel and engaged a private room—we all dined together—this (
<hi rend="italic">produced</hi>) is the bill of the dinner—Meiklejohn, Kurr, Bale, and myself were present—we talked about a scheme we intended carrying out and which was ul
<lb/>timately carried out—Gurney of London, and Barrett of Dover where the names—I stayed at Kurr's house that night—the scheme was to be carried out in London and in Dover—it was a fraud, but not of the same nature—I stayed at Kurr's house that night until the follow
<lb/>ing Wednesday, when I went to Dover—I stayed at Dover until the fol
<lb/>lowing Thursday week—I had Bale with me at Dover—on leaving Dover I went to No. 28, Grosvenor Road—the landlady's name was Mrs. Bruce—
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220126"/>
I stayed there a week, from the 3rd of August to the 10th—the De Go court fraud was concocted in the cab on my return from Dover on the night of the 3rd of August—Kurr, myself, Bale, and Savory—we kept a book later on in which we made all the entries in respect to the De Gon court fraud—this is the book (
<hi rend="italic">produced</hi>)—it is a petty cash account and also an account of the names of the parties who went money—it is not an account of all the disbursements, but I believe of all the receipts—the receipts are at one end of the book and the cash disbursements at the other—the whole of the expenses are not entered, only the petty cash expenses—I saw Meiklejohn on the 4th, 6th, and 8th of August—I saw him on the 4th of August at his own house in the South Lambeth Road—I went with Kurr and saw him in Kurr's presence—the conversation was about the Dover scheme, which had failed—I asked him to dine with me the next evening, the 5th, he said he would, to explain to him the scheme which we intended working I told him I would go into full par
<lb/>ticulars at the dinner—the dinner was on the next day, the 5th; it was Saturday—on the Saturday I received this letter (
<hi rend="italic">produced</hi>)—I know the handwriting—I know by whom it was written—what I mean is this, that my knowledge of the handwriting is not sufficient to enable me to swear that it is written by the party who has written it, but yet I know who wrote it—I heard it from Mrs. Meiklejohn, and he told me afterwards she had written it—the letter is "My dear Sir,—My husband won't be able to be with you this evening as he has an appointment he is obliged to keep." The letter is dated Saturday, and I saw him the next day, Sunday—I saw him at his house—Kurr was with me—I told him I was exceedingly disappointed at not having seen him at dinner the night before, and I said before proceeding to business I wished to make a short statement to him concerning the former scheme; it had been a failure, as he knew, but that as he had been put to some slight expense for cab fares and telegrams, I requested his acceptance of 10
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>., which I handed to him—I said I should have been pleased if it could have been more, but we had been placed at great expense, and instead of being gainers we were losers; at the same time I told him that we were now on the point of starting a fresh scheme, which we hoped, in fact we
<hi rend="italic">felt</hi> certain, would more than recoup our losses and would prove satisfactory, I hoped, to him—he asked me what it was, and I was on the point of telling him what it was when Kurr interrupted me and said "It is useless to explain; you know what it is, Jack? it is what is called the medley scheme"—he said yes, but in a thousand years he would not understand it; he knew all about it, but he could not understand it—he then said "You will find that two postmen (he named them) will be very handy in this"—"Don't you think," he said, turning to Kurr, "that you could afford something?"—Kurr said "Yes"—he gave me their names, Jebb and Godwin—he added "They were disappointed over the last; I promised them 50
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. which I should have given them; they did all they could for you in the Dover scheme, and it was not their fault that it was a failure"—Kurr said he had no objection whatever, but who was to give it them—Meiklejohn said he would—Kurr said "Would you have an objection to introduce me to them, I could then give it them myself?"—Meiklejohn said he would have no objection whatever—I believe at the beginning of the interview Kurr asked Meiklejohn whether he had made any appointment to see Drusco
<lb/>vich—Meiklejohn said that he had received a telegram too late to act,
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220127"/>
but that he had seen Druscovich before and that Druscovich. had remarked to him, "I don't know what Bill will think of me for my having stopped his little game at Dover," and that he (Meiklejohn) replied that he did not think that Kurr had anything whatever to do with the Dover fraud—I think it was at this interview also that Meiklejohn told us that Druscovich and Mr. Williamson had had some words, and that it ended in Mr. Williamson tendering an apology to Druscovich, that Druscovich had reported the matter to Captain Harris—he had alluded on the 4th to his going; to Derby, but on the 6th. I asked him whether he had heard any
<lb/>thing definite about his appointment to the post of superintendent of the Midland Railway Police—lie said not yet, that only Inspector Shore and himself stood any chance of being selected for the post—I then urged him to leave the field entirely to Shore, and told him that he would be of a great deal more use to us in London than he would be in Derby—he said no, he could do a great deal more for us in Derby, because his position was independent, than he could at Scotland Yard—"Besides," he said, "you know I can always run up at any moment if I get the berth "—I asked him if it was a certainty that he would get the berth—he said he thought it was, because Inspector Shore wanted too many things—I told Meiklejohn I should be content with his refusal of my invitation on the previous day, but I should expect him to dine with me later on, and should leave him to name the day—he never dined with me while I was at Mrs. Bruce's—I saw him on the 3rd at his house—he simply read a letter which he had received from the post people, making an appoint
<lb/>ment with him—I left Mrs. Bruce's on the 10th—I went to 55, Beresford Road, the landlady's name was Mrs. Ethel—this is Mrs. Bruce's bill—the order for the printing of the
<hi rend="italic">Sport</hi> newspaper was given while I was at Mrs. Bruce's, I believe about the 5th—between the 5th and 10th, I believe—the orders for the circular and for the sham cheques were given a day or two later, about the 8th—the different apartments in the neighbour
<lb/>hood of St. James's Street were taken a little later—I was at Mrs. Ethel's at the time—there were four or five different apartments taken—they were in different postmen's beats, but in the same district—in the south
<lb/>west district—I did not arrange this—I was not told by any of the prisoners—Kurr told me—I saw Meiklejohn while I was at Mrs. Ethel's—it was on the 13th, that was the Sunday, I saw him at his house—Kurr was with me—on that occasion there was a knock at the front door—Kurr said, on hearing it, "That's the Contractor"—Mrs. Meiklejohn came in and told her husband that Inspector Druscovich was there, and Meiklejohn left the room—on his return Kurr asked him who it was, and he replied "The Contractor, Druscovich"—Kurr asked "Why did you not ask him to come in?"—Meiklejohn replied "You have frightened him away"—Kurr said "Is there any news?"—and he said "No"—he said "By-the-bye, I have received this letter," and he pulled out a letter torn his pocket, a letter from Jebb—the letter contained the hours at which Jebb and Godwin were at the post-office in the South-Western district—one would be there, it said, from five p.m. to one o'clock in the morning, and the other from one till eight at night—he told me who he writer of the letter was, and showed it to me—on that occasion I old Meiklejohn that I had changed my lodgings; and when I asked to dine with me, he appointed the following Saturday, the 19th, on which day he came—that dinner took place at Mrs. Ethel's,
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220128"/>
and there were present Kurr, Meiklejohn, and myself—Meiklejohn was about half-an-hour late, and he gave as a reason that he had been waiting for Sergeant Reimer's return from an expedition relative to the loss of the Gainsborough picture—he said that an anonymous letter had been received at Scotland Yard, or by Mr. Agnew, I forgot which, setting forth that if Mr. Agnew would come to an appointment near Hyde Park, with 1,000
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. in gold, the picture should be returned, and that Reimers was instructed to go there—that he had taken a black bag, and pat into it
<hi rend="italic">two</hi> or three inkstands, and a brickbat or two, to make it appear bulky—I asked why Reimers was selected—he replied because his appearance was very much like Mr. Agnew's brother, but that at the time of his (Meiklejohn's) leaving Scotland Yard no news had transpired about the picture or about Reimers—I told him during the dinner that we expected the
<hi rend="italic">Sport</hi> newspaper that evening, that Frederick Kurr was in Edinburgh, and that as soon as the newspapers arrived the letters would be posted—I asked him which would be the best way of posting the letters, whether they should all be posted in one district or divided—he said he advised that the letters should be posted about forty or fifty at one time, in order to avoid too great a bulk—he asked how many letters we had, and I told him about 200 or 300—among those letters was one to Madame de Goncourt—the letter produced I think was written by Bale—I prepared the French circular—the letter is dated, "London, August 20"—at the time there were a number of letters ready for posting, each envelope containing a French circular, and a newspaper was to be put in, but it had not yet arrived, nor did it arrive, before Meiklejohn left—Meiklejohn went away early inconsequence of the receipt of a telegram—he said he must go home immediately, as he had received a telegram from his wife, which no doubt related to the missing picture—before he left an ap
<lb/>pointment was made to meet the next evening at his house—on the following evening I went to his house with Kurr—the letters had all been posted at that time—at that interview I first asked him "What about the missing picture?"—he said it was a hoax, that nothing had come of it—I then told him that all the letters were posted, and that now it was urgent that some steps should be taken for securing the different offices or rooms where the letters might be received, and Kurr and myself asked him to accompany us to see Jebb—he consented, a cab was sent for, or I believe the same cab, I am not quite certain, and we got into it and drove somewhere in the Wandsworth Road, I don't know where, when Meiklejohn and Kurr got out—whilst we
<hi rend="italic">were</hi> in the cab Meiklejohn asked me if Kurr had ever told me how he had managed to get the Contractor right—I said "No," although he had—he said "It was in this wise; early in the spring I was one night with Kurr at some public-house when a message came from his house that he was wanted immediately, that he left Kurr and returned home, and found Druscovich, who seemed exceedingly an
<lb/>noyed, and told him that he was in great difficulties, that he had backed a bill for his brother, and still required 60
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. to complete the money which was due, and if it was not forthcoming the Sheriff's officer would be put in possession; and he asked him to lend him 60
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>.; that Meiklejohn said that he could not, but he had a friend who he had just left. who would be very pleased to lend him that sum, and if he liked he would run round to
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220129"/>
the public-house and try and find that friend; that Druscovich wanted to know who his friend was, and Meiklejohn replied, "Oh, he is a perfect gentleman, he is an owner of race-horses, and you may thoroughly trust him, but leave it to me; "that Druscovich showed a great deal of hesita
<lb/>tion,' but Meiklejohn left and went to the public-house; but Kurr had left and Meiklejohn then made an appointment to see Kurr, and told him what position Druscovieh was placed in, and asked him whether he would lend him the 60
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>., and Kurr said yes, he was only too pleased to do so, but asked what kind of acknowledgment he was to receive—Meikle
<lb/>john said "None whatever; if you ask for an acknowledgment and Drus
<lb/>covich finds out who you are, he would never take the money; leave it to me entirely"—an appointment was made for the next night, Tuesday, I believe, when Meiklejohn introduced Druscovich to Kurr, and ultimately Kurr lent Druscovich 60
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>.—I said to Meiklejohn "Well, but can he be trusted, we are going to lose you?"—I meant that he was going away; he had told me that it was contemplated that he was to receive the ap
<lb/>pointment—he said "You can trust Druscovich as you would myself"—Meiklejohn told me all that in the cab—when they got out of the cab in Wandsworth Road, I was left alone in the cab for about an hour—I saw them go down the street, and a few minutes afterwards I saw them. go into a public-house with a third person, who I did not know then, but know now to be Jebb—they came back to the cab, and Kurr asked Jebb certain questions in Meiklejohn's presence about the limits of the S.W. district, in order to take offices all in the same district—he also asked about letters coming by post, whether they could open French registered letters, which have five seals—he said "No, not unless there are seals made to imitate the originals"—Kurr had named certain streets in which to take the offices, and Jebb replied that Jermyn Street, St. James's Place, St. James's Square, Cleveland Row, Duke Street, Charles Street, and Vere Street, to the best of my recollection, were all in the S.W. district; in fact, that the whole of one side of Piccadilly was—I had already taken the lodgings in King Street for Montgomery, but no mention was made of King Street, because we knew it—Kurr said that Jebb was not an intelligent man—Kurr said "No, when Godwin comes back, that is the man you will have to see," and he asked Jebb whether it would not be advisable to give the postman a gratuity—Jebb said "No, I will place a young postman on the beat, and if he does not deliver your letters properly, you must bully him"—Kurr had asked, in "the event of any inquiries being made, how long notice could he rely upon in order to change the addresses if the letters were stopped, and not lose any of them—he said You may reckon on a week"—I mean that we could get a week's notice before any letters could be stopped, and he explained how it could be done; that the information would come from the Post-office first, and would be put on a file and left for a time—I could only walk with crutches at that time, and when I was in the Isle of Wight I could not walk at all; I was carried—I can walk with two sticks now—I took to sticks instead of crutches while I was at Mrs. Ethel's—from July last year till I was arrested, I had a difficulty in walking—the answers which came to the circulars sent out on the 20th came to 11, King Street, to Montgomery's, and were then brought to the lodgings I had removed to at Mrs. Assy's, 120, Newington Green Road, on the 24th—I replied to them in French—I saw Meiklejohn on the 25th, and told him I had removed,
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220130"/>
and I saw him on Sunday evening, 27th, at his house, 202 South Lambeth Road, and told him that I had received a number of replies and the cheques he gave me at the Langham Hotel were completely used' having been sent to our foreign correspondents, and I should feel "grateful if he would give me some more—this cheque of the South-Western Bank of August 26th, is filled up in Bale's writing—I received it in blank from Meiklejohn, and sent it to one of the persons who had answered the circulars—it was forwarded to a correspondent and returned by him to one of the fictitious bookmakers, and so came again into my possession—Meiklejohn said "You don't mean to say that you have used up all those cheques?"—I said "I have, and a great many more"—he said "I have no more to give you"—I said "The printer says he ordered a great many more of our own, but the printer has not kept his word, and they have not yet come to London"—when I said cheques of our own, I did not at that time tell Meiklejohn what cheques I referred to—I know Palmer—I drove with Kurr last August to the Strand; Kurr alighted, and was met by Palmer; the two passed the cab a few minutes later, and went somewhere else—I was left in the cab about a quarter of an hour—I cannot fix the date—I did not know Palmer at that time personally—I think that was the first time I had seen him—this is Mrs. Assy's lodging book (
<hi rend="italic">produced</hi>) with her account in it—the offices at 8, Northumberland Street were taken on 30th August by F. Kurr only, but were not occupied till the 31st, when the agreement was signed—I went there every day and secured the letters sent to Montgomery, and the letters sent to the bookmakers were brought there by F. Kurr and Bale—W. Kurr was present when those offices were taken on 31st—when we went into occupation he was there all day—we were all there on the 31st—I first saw Meiklejohn there on Saturday, 7th September—he said that everything was at an end; the police had wind of our dealings; detectives had been sent to Murray's lodgings, where the letters were received, and, in fact, the whole scheme had collapsed—he drew out a paper from his pocket when I stated that I did not believe his statement, and from it he read Montgomery's address, 11, King Street; Jacob Francis, 2, Cleveland
<hi rend="italic">Row</hi>; Charles Jackson, 12, St. James' Place, and Thomas Ellerton, of Duke Street, I think—I said" There can be no doubt that the matter is correct, it is a great pity, it seems that ill-luck pursues us"—Kurr then winked at me, and I knew it was a hoax—I said to Meiklejohn "I know it is not true; if it had been true you would have been the first to have suffered"—Kurr then asked Meiklejohn if he had seen that morning's
<hi rend="italic">Sport</hi>—he said "No," and we both went into the back office, and I took from a box I kept there one of the numbers of the
<hi rend="italic">Sport</hi> newspaper, and brought it back into the room—I forget whether I gave it to Kurr or to Meiklejohn, but Meiklejohn took it, opened it, and on seeing Montgomery's name, he said "Oh, I have not got time for this
<hi rend="italic">bosh</hi> now, I must take it; I will read it later on"—I said "Yes, if you promise no one shall see it"—he did so, and put it in his pocket—500 were printed at first, and afterwards 250, but no second newspaper was issued—he asked us if we were doing well—I said no—Kurr went out and fetched some champagne from the Northumberland Hotel I think—on Thursday or Friday, September 7th or 8th, I saw Palmer at the office—there 'was a tap at the window with an umbrella—Kurr and Bale were in the
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220131"/>
office—I looked out and saw Palmer—Kurr went out, and was away a few minutes, and came in again alone, and in consequence of what he said I gave Kurr 10
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. in two notes I think, and a
<hi rend="italic">Sport</hi> newspaper—he went out with them, and stayed out half an hour—when he came back he had not got the 10
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>., but he had got the newspaper—I next saw Meiklejohn at the office on 11th September, between twelve and one o'clock—he asked for Kurr—I told him that Kurr had just gone to the Criterion grill-room to
<hi rend="italic">get</hi> a chop, and had left word that if any one called he would not be long—he said that he had not got much time, but he would wait to see if he came back—I had before me a number of our cheques returned by that morning's or the previous even
<lb/>ing's post—Meiklejohn made the remark "Have you received all these cheques this morning?"—I said "Yes; and you are quite welcome to them; they are all our cheques"—they were the Royal Bank of London—he said he did not want any of that trash, but he had certainly made up his mind to have his
<hi rend="italic">whack</hi> out of the present concern—I said I should have no objection if the thing were profitable—he said "Yes, I should expect it after the way I was treated by Walters; he promised me 250
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. out of the last affair, and I had nothing"—I said "You don't expect us to be responsible for Mr. Walters's debts"—he said no, but that over the Archer affair he had not been treated properly by Kurr; that all he had to a paltry amount in comparison with the large amounts that had been received in Archer—I said that he should have made that remark to Kurr at the time when he found he was not properly treated, and said "Besides, you forget the enormous advertising expenses, and also the fact that the French police stopped 8,000
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. at the post-office; but you need not fear a similar calamity in this ease, because we are working this quietly and by degrees; it is a lasting game, and you will have no fault to find"—he then told me that he had come up from Derby to see about the letting of his house—I asked him if he had. a tenant—he said that he thought he had—I asked him what rent he thought a tenant would pay—he said 40
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. to 45
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>.—I asked him what he paid for the house—he said that with various improvements he had made it had cost him 400
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. or 450
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>.—he told me he had got a very nice house at Derby, at 45
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. a year, with half an acre of land attached—I sent circulars to two departments of France, the Marne and the Gironde—this (
<hi rend="italic">produced</hi>) is the directory from which I worked—I have put "Fine" at the end of Marne—I simply selected the notaries and the gentry—Kurr came in before Meiklejohn went away on the 11th of September—I saw Palmer on Thursday, the 14th of Sep
<lb/>tember—he tapped at the window with his umbrella or stick—I sent Bale out—he returned alone—on that day I also saw Jebb at the office—I remember the night of September 25—I was disturbed in the night by a stone breaking the window—I did not get up—the next day I drove to Kurr's and fetched him away—on our way to Northumberland Street he made a communication to me—there we found Bale and Frederick Kurr—kurr went out for five minutes, and made a communication to me when he came back—in consequence of what he said I went to Glasgow that night with Bale and Frederick Kurr—I took 13,500
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. in Bank of England notes with me, and I afterwards received 500
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. in notes by letter—I had received the notes from William Kurr—I went in the name of Cosnove to Macrae's Hotel—the other two went in the names of Reynolds and Richardson—while I was at Glasgow I received several communications
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220132"/>
from William Kurr, letters and telegrams—I paid in the first notes on Friday, the 29th—I paid the money into two banks: one was the Tron gate branch of the Clydesdale Bank, and the other the Trongate branch of the City of Glasgow Bank—before I paid them in I received a letter from William Kurr on the 28th—I immediately went to the banks to open accounts—I also directed Bale and Frederick Kurr to open other accounts elsewhere in Glasgow—that was in consequence of the letter—I did not pay in all the money—I paid 5,900
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. into the Clydesdale Bank (Trongate branch), and 1,735
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. into the City of Glasgow Bank—I kept the balance back—I did not pay in all the notes be
<lb/>cause the greater portion of them had been stopped—I knew that from the letter I had received—I left Glasgow on Tuesday night 3rd October, on my return to London—before leaving I paid in on the Monday a further sum of 800
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. in notes, which I ascertained had not been stopped, to the Clydesdale Banking Company, and on the Tuesday I paid in the bulk of the remainder, 5,600
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. in stopped and 200
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. in Glasgow notes—that made up a sum of 10,000
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>., for which I obtained a draft on the Greenock branch of the Clydesdale Bank—I cashed that draft and got one hundred 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. Clydesdale notes at the Greenock branch at twelve o'clock—Greenock is only an hour's ride by rail—I left for London the same night by the nine o'clock express—before leaving I telegraphed to William Kurr—I arrived at St. Pancras (Midlanu) station the following morning at eight o'clock—I took a four-wheel cab, and my servant took a hansom—my cab broke down at the corner of the Caledonian Road—my cabman called another cab, and I got into it; but first drove to the tele
<lb/>graph station and telegraphed to Bale—the second cabman took me to my own door, 1.0, Newington Green Road, where my servant had just arrived—I saw Kurr that day about ten in the morning, and gave him a draft for 300
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. drawn by the British Linen Company in favour of Mr. W. Medway, I think, on Messrs. Smith, Payne, and Co—I had purchased it from the British Linen Company, at Glasgow, and paid for it with three of the notes which I had obtained from the City of Glasgow Bank or the Clydesdale Bank—Kurr took away the draft with him, and after a time returned with 300
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. in gold, in two small leather bags, and I counted out 150
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. and placed it in one of the bags, and gave it back to him—I saw him the same day a third time about six o'clock, and a fourth time about half-past ten—I gave him the whole of the notes that I had brought with me—I left Mrs. Assy's on the morning of the 6th October, and went to Brighton with Kurr to the Ship Hotel—I remained until the following Monday week, 16th October—Kurr remained until Saturday, the 14th during the time we were at Brighton we twice made trips to London—the first was on Tuesday, the 10th—we drove from Victoria station to the corner of Great College Street—Kurr got out of the cab, and after being absent about half an hour he came back alone, and made a communica
<lb/>tion to me—Kurr remained in London—I came up to London again on the 16th—I had an appointment with a solicitor, and I afterwards met Kurr and changed cabs, and drove to his house—I returned alone to Brighton on the same night—I left Brighton on the 16th; I went to Hastings, and on the following day came to London—I went to the Castle and Falcon in the name of Clifford, with my servant—I saw Meiklejohn that evening between seven and eight, at Kurr's house—I had shaved off my moustache and beard, and Meiklejohn stated that I looked like Mr.
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220133"/>
Lewis—Meiklejohn said he could not stay, as he was in a great hurry, but he would be in town on the following Thursday, and he wished to see us then—he told kurr that Druscovich was anxious to see him—Kurr asked fur what reason, and he said he did not know—Meiklejohn saw me on the 19th at the Castle and Falcon, about six o'clock—he had some champagne, and asked for his whack—he said it was time to arrive at a settlement—I asked him what he would take, he said 2,000
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>.—I asked him if he was joking—I said surely he might be serious, and if he could not be serious there could not be business between us—he said he was per
<lb/>fectly serious, he wanted 2,000
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>., and 2,000
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. he meant to have—I said Really I should decline to say anything more on the subject if he could not be serious—he said "I have stated what I will take, now tell me, what will you offer me?"—I said "I am ashamed to offer you anything after your remark; there is such a difference between my offer and your demand that I should not like to state what I am going to give you"—he then said that inasmuch as he had been cheated over the Walters and Hurray and Archer affairs he considered it was his due, and therefore he named 2,000
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>.—I said we could not be responsible for what Walters had promised him, and if he was disappointed over what he had received in the Archer affair he should have made his complaint to Archer—he said he had been defrauded of at least 300
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>., and we were to make it good—he said "What are you going to offer me?"—I said "I was prepared to offer you between 200
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. and 300
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>."—he said "Certainly rot"—he seemed to take it as an insult, and said "You cannot deceive me this time, I know exactly how much money you have changed; you have changed 13,000
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>., and that was all profit, as you have had no expenses in the advertising line"—I said "That may be," but of that 13,000
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. a great deal was our private money, and nothing to do with the amounts changed by Kurr and myself; and secondly, if we have had no expenses in adver
<lb/>tising, we have had great expense in the police line"—he said that that was do business of his what other people received; what he wanted was his own whack, and that he meant to have it, and he did not see why he should be treated worse in this concern than he had been in the Archer affair—Kurr then said "Well, Jack, we won't quarrel, let it be the same as over Archer, let it be 500
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>.;"—Meiklejohn said "Yes. but you are going to pay me this 200
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. or 300
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. and defraud me out of the affair of Archer"—I said "That is a matter you will have to decide between yourselves, I have nothing to do with it"—Kurr said "Now comes another question; we have no English notes and no gold; we have nothing but Scotch notes, will you take it in Scotch notes?"—he said "Yes," and Kurr turned to me and said "Have you got 500
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>.?"—I said "No"—he said "Then I shall have to go home and fetch the notes"—it had been arranged by Meiklejohn and myself on that night that I should go down to Madlock, and an arrangement was made that I should meet Meiklejohn at the Kentish Town station of the Midland Railway, he leaving St. Pancras by the 9.15 train—Kurr made arrangements to meet Meiklejohn at the same time as I left—Kurr was to drive home for the 500
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>., and give Meiklejohn the amount at the station—I sent my servant from the Castle and Falcon to the station, and I, with Kurr, got into a cab and drove to Kurr's house; there Kurr left me for a few Minutes and came back with a packet in his hand, which he showed me open—they were some of the notes I had brought from Glasgow—we
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220134"/>
then drove to the Kentish Town station—the train arrived at 9.20 and Moiklejohn jumped out of one of the carriages—I asked Meiklejohn whether he could not secure a carriage to ourselves—he replied that he could not manage it—I stepped in first and he followed—as we were get
<lb/>ting in Kurr handed to Meiklejohn the packet which he had shown to meat 29, Marquess Road, and Meiklejohn put it into his pocket—I do not know who else was in the carriage, but there was a gentleman a stranger to me—after wo had got some little distance he pulled it out and said "What has Bill given me?"—I replied "500
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>."—he opened the packet, and counted the notes on his knee in presence of the stranger—I asked him how he was going to get rid of them—he said there were one or two which he could manage through his brother—he also said he had a friend who had been to school with him, who was manager of the branch of the Clydesdale Bank at the Bridge of Allan—Meiklejohn said he would not have been so exacting had it not been for his family: that his boys were growing up, and that he wanted to give them a good education—that was my first visit to Derby—I said that I should go by the name of Clifford, of Melbourne—I had never been in Melbourne—I do not know whether Meiklejohn knew that—I went to the Midland Hotel, because he said the manager was one of his friends—I could not get a bedroom there—the only accommodation they could give me was making up a bed in the sitting-room—I stayed there that night—Meiklejohn came next morning to breakfast and showed me a letter from Wilson—I did not know Wilson personally, only by reputation—he is a sub-inspector of the detective police in Glasgow—after breakfast we went to Matlock and stayed at the New Bath Hotel—I went by the name of Clifford there—when I went on 20th Oct. from Derby to Matlock, Meikle
<lb/>john went in the train with me—I got out at Matlock Bridge, and he went on—he said he was going to Manchester to make some inquiry con
<lb/>cerning some outrage that had been committed on the Midland line—I went from Matlock to Derby on 21st Oct., and went to Meiklejohn's house—I asked him whether he had discovered anything about the outrage he said no—I then asked him what he had done in Manchester—he said that he had taken the opportunity of changing one of the 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. notes there—this (
<hi rend="italic">produced</hi>) is one of the Clydesdale notes—I asked with whom he had changed it—he said he did not know; some stranger—I asked him if there were any particulars asked by the money-changer, and what was the rate of exchange—he said when first he inquired about the charge they asked some exorbitant rate of exchange, but afterwards the man agreed to take less, and that the only inquiry made was his name and address—I asked what name ho had given; he replied that he had given some common name, I forget what it was, and the address somewhere in Piccadilly, St. James's Squaro or St. James's Place, I forget which—I told him I considered he had been extremely foolish in changing that note, especially in giving the address he had done, when he knew that the inquiries concerning the fraud would lead to St. James's Place or St. James's Square, in fact. Jackson had received letters there—Jackson was one of the fictitious bookmakers—he said there was no fear of anything arising, because the man was a perfect stranger to him, that he had seen him for the first time, and most likely would never see him again—at Derby Meiklejohn introduced me to Mr. Carr, the inspector of the railway police—I forget whether he introduced me under any name—I think he
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220135"/>
simply said "My friend"—I had before that written a letter to Wilson which I took with me and read to Meiklejohn, and I asked him to add a few lines to it or to write it himself, but he said it was perfectly unneces
<lb/>sary to write after what I had done and said in my letter; that would be sufficient, that Wilson would be perfectly satisfied—I told Meiklejohn that I had forwarded 5
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. to Wilson, regretting that he should have been placed at any annoyance through the inquiries he had answered for me, and that I hoped he would not, as he had stated in his letter to Meikle
<hi rend="italic">john</hi>, lose his situation, and that I hoped nothing more would be heard of the matter—I had promised Meiklejohn a case of champagne, and as I could not get it myself would he take the equivalent in money—he said yes, and I gave him five 1
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. Scotch notes—I next went from Matlock to Derby on Monday, the 23rd, and saw Meiklejohn at the railway station on the platform and afterwards went to his office—he said "I had a letter from the Contractor this morning"—I asked what he said, and he gave me the letter to read—I read it and gave it him back, and said I considered it a very clever one—I remarked that I did not think the writer of that letter could be thoroughly trusted—he said "You may rely upon him as you would upon me, but he is not up to the case yet," or I not up to the mark," I forget which—there was no enclosure in that letter—I was to have seen Meiklejohn the following day, but he told me that he would have to go to Leeds that day, Tuesday, and I made an appointment with him on the Wednesday, the 25th—I saw him that day at the terminus at Derby, and afterwards at his office—on that occasion he showed me another letter, but before that he told me that on the Tuesday (the 24th) at Leeds he had cashed another 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. note with a friend of his, a wine merchant, in Leeds—I said I thought it was a very foolish thing—he said that the gentleman with whom he had cashed it had kown him for seventeen years, and that therefore nothing would take place—after I had seen the letter I said I thought he had been exceedingly unwise and foolish to have changed a 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. note under those circumstances, especially after what the letter contained; no doubt there would be some serious consequences arising from it—he again replied that he did not think anything serious could arise, from the mere fact that the gentleman who had changed it had known him seventeen years, and in all probability no inquiries would be made on the subject at all—I said I did not think he had heard the last of it, and asked what was his hurry, especially after having changed a note on the Saturday—lie said he did not wish the money to lie idle—the letter he showed me had a printed paper enclosed, smilar to this (
<hi rend="italic">produced</hi>)—I saw Meiklejohn again on Friday, the 27th, at Derby—he told me that he had that morning received another letter from the Contractor—I asked him what the contents were—he did not show it me—he said that the Contractor had written to state that a letter had reached Scotland Yard from the chief or deputy-constable, to the effect that a 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. note had been changed in Leeds by Meiklejohn, and Druscovich wanted to know what reply was to be given—I told Meikle
<lb/>john that I thought the matter was exceedingly serious; what explanation was he going to give—he said that the deputy or chief constable at Leeds I don't know which) was an intimate friend of his, and that he was going to write to him to tell him that his inspector was a fool, and that in the meanwhile nothing would come of the complaint at Scotland Yard, beause Druscovich had destroyed it and put it on the fire—I said I was
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220136"/>
still of opinion that the matter was exceedingly serious, and that we should hear what Kurr would say when he came down on the same afternoon—Meiklejohn still treated the matter very lightly—Kurr came to Derby, and Meiklejohn and myself met him on the platform—I told him in Meiklejohn's presence what had occurred, and Kurr took the same view of the matter as I did—he went back with me to Matlock that night—I asked Meiklejohn previously to make Kurr remain over that night as we had to talk of business matters, and it would take some time' longer in fact than could be managed in the time that Kurr would remain in Derby if he had to leave the same night; so it was agreed that we should meet next morning, Meiklejohn, myself, and Kurr, at Derby—we met again next day and went from Matlock to Derby—our interview took place, first at the office, afterwards we drove in a cab to Meiklejohn's house—there we talked about the advisability of starting another firm similar to that of Montgomery, and where the best locality would be—I first proposed to start in Liverpool, but Meiklejohn said no, it was not advisable—I said so far as Glasgow was concerned I thought it was rather too warm, after what had transpired, to go back there—he agreed with me—I asked him "What about Edinburgh; can you give me an introduction in Edinburgh?"—Meiklejohn said that he could give us an introduction, but that he did not think we required one, because Wilson was an intimate friend of a person, he did not mention the name at the time, in Edinburgh, who would do all we wanted. and, turning to Kurr, he said "You know who I mean"—Kurr said "Who do you mean? do you mean Gollan?"—he said "Yes, I do;" he said "He is in the Custom House—no, he is not; he is a sheriff's officer, and as sheriffs officer if anything were to take place you are bound to know it, because no warrant can be issued in Scotland until the sheriff or the fiscal has granted it ""But," said Kurr, "I do not know the man sufficiently myself, I have only seen him once at a racecourse; cannot you give us another introduction?" He said "The captain of the police in Edin
<lb/>burgh is an old man of the name of Linton, but he seldom or ever comes to the office; in fact, I do not think he comes to the office more than once or twice a week. He leaves all his work to be done by his son, who is lieutenant of the police I might manage to give you an introduction to him, but I think." he said "you will find Wilson can manage it very much better than I can, but still I am quite ready to do so." Kurr then asked him whether he thought Edinburgh was the proper place to work—he said yes, he decidedly thought so—Kurr then pressed him to name a day when he would come down to meet Wilson and introduce him to Linton in person—Meiklejohn said that he would have to go to Edinburgh or to Glasgow; no, he would have to go to the north for some inquiry or for some arrangement in a very short time, in fact the next week, and if Kurr liked to make an appointment he would meet him and proceed with him as far as Edinburgh or Glasgow, and there the introduction should take place—it was afterwards agreed that on the following Thursday they should go down together, but they did not go down on the Thursday—Kurr returned to London on that evening—I went back to Matlock and stayed till the Monday next, the 30th—then I returned to London and. stayed at the Great Northern Hotel, under the name of Clifford, until Thursday night, 2nd November—while staying there I purchased a locket and necklet at Benson's, on Ludgate Hill—Kurr, who was with me, paid
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220137"/>
for them, 20
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>., and I gave the packet to him—on 2nd November I went by the night train to Bridge of Allan—Meikiejohn had recommended me to go there—firstly, because it was a salubrious place; and, secondly, be
<lb/>cause it was near Edinburgh, and also because he stated that he had a friend there named Monteith, manager of the branch of the Clydesdale Bank at Bridge of Allan—when I got to Bridge of Allan I stayed at the Queen's Hotel, under the name of Young—Kurr came to me on Saturday, 4th November, the day after I arrived—Meikiejohn came with him—I lad previously made inquiries about Mr. Monteith, and when I saw Meikiejohn I told him I had discovered there was no Clydesdale Bank at the Bridge of Allan, and that though Mr. Monteith did live at Bridge of Allan, it was true, but it was his private residence; that he had originally been joint manager of the branch at Stirling, and had just been promoted to the sole managership of the Alloa branch—on entering the hotel I asked Meiklejohn (he told me he had but a short time to remain) if he would kindly send to Monteith, asking him to come round, and he drew out one of his own cards and wrote something on it and then gave me the card—I handed it to the landlord of the hotel and asked him to send it up immediately to Bombay House, where Mr. Monteith resided, to ask Monteith to come down immediately—the message came back that Mr. Monteith was not at home, that he was not expected till late that night, and consequently he did not come—(
<hi rend="italic">card handed</hi>)—that is the one. (
<hi rend="italic">Real</hi>: "Mr. John Meikiejohn, Inspector of Detective Police, Scot-laud Yard.") On the back is written: "Mr. Monteith will be kind enough. to come to the Queen's Hotel as soon as possible"—I was then told what arrangement had been made for the next day, Sunday—they began by tell
<lb/>ing me that they had met in Edinburgh Wilson and Gollan, and that they had made an appointment that the two were to come on the nest day, Sun
<lb/>day morning, to the Bridge of Allan, and that they would be there in time for breakfast—I strongly objected to their coming to the Queen's Hotel, and Meiklejohn upheld me—Kurr was in favour that they should come, but I asked Meiklejohu whether there was not a place not far from Bridge of Allan where we could adjourn without its being at the Queen's Hotel he said "Yes, why not go to Dumblane, it is only a few miles?"—four miles I think from Bridge of Allan—he said "It is half-way between Bridge of Allan and my father's house," where he was going on—that was Green Loaming—I asked the landlord whether he could
<hi rend="italic">give</hi> notice at Dumblane so that we might find dinner ready, inasmuch as Wilson and Gollan would have to return that same night, Sunday, and, there was only one train, and by my instructions he telegraphed to the Stirling Arms at Dumblane and ordered dinner for five—it was then agreed that I should leave Bridge of Allan early in the morning, Sunday, drive to Green Loaming and fetch Meikiejohn, whilst Kurr would meet the other two at the station, take them back to the hotel, where he would engage a special room for them, and after I had left he would walk to Dumblane with them, and we should meet all at dinner—Meikle
<lb/>john then left me—before he left I asked him if he would introduce me to Mr. Monteith—he said he would, and that is all that transpired then—to the best of my recollection he returned by the 5 something train—no arrangement was made about meeting Monteith that night—I had not then seen him—the next day I drove to Green Loaming, fetched Meiklejohn away, and drove him back to Dutnblane—we all dined
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220138"/>
together, Meiklejohn, Kurr, Wilson, Gollan, and I—I afterwards drove Meiklejohn back part of the way to Green Loaming, and on the road I asked him whether be would not give me an introduction to Mr. Monteith—I said that it was early enough, and that in all probability it being Sunday, I should be able to catch Monteith at home that same evening, and see him before he went to the bank in the morning, and moreover make an appointment for Mr. Monteith to see Meiklejohn the next morning, as Meiklejohn was going back to Derby the next day—he said he would do so, and asked me what form of introduction I should like—I said "Simply give me a card, write a few lines of introduction." He got out of the cab and wrote a few lines at the back of this card—I took it with me, and after making an appointment with Meiklejohn to breakfast with us next morning, I drove straight to Bombay House, where Mr. Monteith resided, and gave the card to the servant who opened the door—I was shown into the drawing-room and Monteith came a few minutes afterwards—that was on Sunday, the 5th—I saw him again next moruing—Meiklejohn came to breakfast with us on the Monday, and the next day, the 7th, I opened an account at the Alloa branch of the Clydesdale Bank—I paid in 2,600
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>.—this is the paying-in slip:" Clydesdale Banking Company, 7th Nov., 1876. Paid in on account of Henry Young with the Clydesdale Banking Company, 2,600
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. sterling, by the hands of Henry Young"—I paid it in ten 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. notes of the City of Glasgow Bank, and eight 20
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. notes of the Clydesdale Banking Com
<lb/>pany—on Thursday, the 9th, I paid into the same account 400
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. in four 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. notes on the Clydesdale Banking Company—I do not know whether that is the slip, as it is not signed—I introduced Kurr to the Bank on the 9th, and saw him pay in 500
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>.—on Friday, 10th November, we had a dinner at Bridge of Allan—Mr. Monteith and Kurr dined with me—on Monday, the 6th, I paid a visit to Edinburgh, and saw Street and Bale—that is the only visit I paid to Edinburgh—Kurr passed in the name of Gifford at Bridge of Allan—about three or four o'clock on the afternoon of the 10th Kurr received a telegram—I saw it—this is the sub
<lb/>stance of it: "If Shanks is near I. of W. let him leave at once and see you—a letter follows." "While at dinner we received another telegram—this is the substance of it: "If Shanks is with you, let him leave you immediately. leaves to-night and will be at Bridge of Allan by the first train in the morning. Very important."—In consequence of that telegram I made up my mind to leave—the telegram came about eight o'clock, before we had done dinner—I left that same night—I apologised to Mr. Monteith and went away—my servant went with me—we arrived at Perth about one o'clock in the morning, stayed for the night, the next day I went to Linlithgow—(James Irvine Midwinter,
<hi rend="italic">Clerk to Mr. Abrahams, proved the service of a notice to produce, on Meiklejohn on 12th October</hi>)—Meiklejohn handed me a letter he had received from London from Druscovich the morning before—I did not read it—I read the enclosure—I stayed at Linlithgow a day, and then went to Derby, where I arrived at five on Sunday morning—I went to the Midland Hotel—I saw Meiklejohn at his house, and asked him whether he had heard why I was compelled to leave so suddenly—he said "No"—I asked him if he was aware Druscovich had turned up suddenly in Edinburgh, and then at Bridge of Allan—he said he had heard nothing on the subject, and asked for particulars, which I gave him—I then asked Meiklejohn to go to Bridge
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220139"/>
of Allan without delay, and I should be obliged if he would go that night, as we should have more time to discuss the matter, and Kurr would very likely be there—the same day, Sunday, I asked Meiklejohn to see Monteith at Bridge of Allan, and so to conduct matters that we should be able draw out the 3,500
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. which had been lodged at the Bank at Alloa—Kurr and Street came later—Kurr asked Meiklejohn if he had heard what taken place—he said that he had received two telegrams, and in order to be in communication he had left for Glasgow, and had gone to Wilson's house and slept on the sofa, and that he had telegraphed the better part of the night in order to intercept Druscovich on his way to Edinburgh or before he could get to Bridge of Allan, but he had not been able to do so, but had managed to meet him in Edinburgh about ten o'clock in the morning, and that Druscovich was more like a madman than anything else, that he kept saying, "Cannot I take him," meaning myself, "and after
<lb/>wards let him go"—I said that I had not any intention of trusting myself to the tender mercies of Mr. Druscovich—he said that he had got Drusco
<lb/>Yieh to consent, and he would not go so early as he intended, in order that someone might go to Bridge of Allan and get the letters, and Druscovich said that he would delay his departure till the 3 or half-past 3 train, and in the meantime he would send somebody to Bridge of Allan to get the letters, and that the landlord had refused to give up the letters, that he had received my instructions to that effect, and said that I should ask them the amount—Meiklejohn, myself, Street, and Kurr, were present—I asked Meiklejohn whether he thought Druscovich could be trusted—he said, "Certainly, why not, in face of all the facts?"—he said, "Well, the man has lost his head"—Kurr and myself urged him to leave for Bridge of Allan that very night, and also for Edinburgh, in order that he might see Druscovich to give us time to draw out the money from the bank, but he would not hear of such a thing, and he said that he did not see any reason for immediate hurry, if Druscovich compromised "him he would compromise Druscovich—I asked him what was to be done, he said he should have a line that night, and he would see Murray and ask him whether he would go to Bridge of Allan with my cheque and Kurr's cheque and carry out the matter—after I left Meiklejohn's house I drew a cheque and gave it to Kurr—I asked Meiklejohn what I had better do—he said "You had better not remain here"—I said "Where shall I go?"—he said "You had better go into Staffordshire"—I said "I want to be near you to get information as quick as I can"—he said—"Suppose you go to Leicester, and if anything comes either write down or telegraph"—I said" "Where shall I go there?" and he suggested the Bull Inn—I went to the Bull Inn that night, and passed in the name of Morris—I saw Meiklejohn that night; he came to the Bull—he showed me a telegram which he said he had received that morning from the Contractor, and he did not like the tone of it at all—he showed it to me—this is it: "
<hi rend="italic">From Druscouch Bridge of Allan, to Meiklejohn, Midland Railway, Derby, Novem
<lb/>ber</hi> 13, 1876 Shall be to-night at Ship Hotel, Edinburgh. I want some important information from you as to your knowledge as to three persons who have been staying here. Come up if you can."—I said I wished he had taken my advice and had gone on the night before, and asked what he had done in the matter—he said that he had done nothing, and had not decided anything, but he intended writing or telegraphing to Drusco
<lb/>vich
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220140"/>
that he could not come on Monday, as he had important business but that he would come the next night—I said "What is he going to say about the men mentioned?"—he said all he could say was that lie knew some men, but the description in the paper was not the same as would answer my description—I then told him that I had received a telegram from Kurr, which I could not make head or tail of—I showed him the telegram—to the best of my remembrance it was: "Go to Mrs. Dubliaton thence to the place where Strasbourg was telegraphed from, prepare every tiling to be ready to go to Hookey town." I could not understand it all—Kurr arrived that same evening at about seven o'clock—Meikle
<lb/>john was there when he came—I asked Kurr what news there was—he said "No news whatever," he could get no information in London: Drus
<lb/>covich was still dow n in Scotland—Kurr explained that the telegram which lie had sent M'as meant to read "Go to Dublin, thence to the place where Strasburg was telegraphed from," which wai Queenstown, because we had sent a telegram to Reinhardt from Queenstown; "thence to New York."—I asked "Why to New York?"—he said "Because they want you to be away"—"they" meant Palmer and Clarke—I asked Kurr what he had done with Murray—he paid, after some persuasion, that lie had induced Murray to leave that night for Alloa, he was to go on to Stirling, and the next morning he would present the drafts at Alloa—he said he had no doubt that Murray would succeed in obtaining the money, and that all wouldbe right—I had no English money, and I said I should feel obliged if lie would send mo English bank notes; that I would then go to Dublin that night and await instructions from him as to what port I could embark from, and as soon as I had definite information and the money I should embark for
<hi rend="italic">Isavf</hi> York—Kurr said to feiklejoim "Under the circumstances I think it is very much better that I should not telegraph to you any more to your oilice, where had I better telegraph to you?"—he said "You had better telegraph to me in the name of Thompson at the Railway Hotel and the Midland Hotel, Derby; where shall I telegraph to you?"—he said you had better telegraph to the name of Matthews, at the Mitre, Kingsgate Street"—that is in Holborn, London—I then left Leicester and went to Dublin by Holyhead—I stayed at the Gresham Hotel in Dutdin—my servant was with me—I stayed until Fridaj night, 17th November—while in Dublin I sent away my servant to New York in the steamer Polynesian, of the Allan Line, which went from London
<lb/>derry to Portland, in the state of Maine—I gave him both telegrams and letters which lie was to post from New York—I left Dublin and went to Rugby, and from there to Birmingham, and from there to Heading, where I arrived on Monday, 20th November—I met Kurr at the Reading station, and we came on to London—we arrived at about ten o'clock at night, and we met Street on our arrival at Paddington—we got into a cab at ihe station, and drove somewhere on the south side of the lhames, about Kennington—Kurr and Street got out of the cab, and wero absent at Jesist two hours—I remained in the cab—when they returned they made a communication to me—we drove then to St. Katherine's Wharf, and I left by the boat in the morning for Boulogne, went to Brussels for two or three days, and afterwards proceeded to Rotterdam, where I stayed at the New Bath Hotel in the name of Morton—on Sunday, 26th November,
<hi rend="italic">Y.</hi> Kurr and Bale both came to the hotel—I knew they had been in Rotterdam since Friday, but did not know
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220141"/>
where to find them—Frederick Kurr took the name of Collins, and Bale that of Taylor—on the 1st December I gave one Clydesdale note to the landlord to change, and the next day we were all three taken in custody by the Dutch authorities—I had 25 Clydesdale notes more on me—I received a telegram when in custody, and afterwards a second telegram, on 8th of December I think, from Froggatt—one was sent on the day of my arrest, and that was not delivered to me till some days after—the second telegram reached me first—this is the telegram which was placed in my hands after the second telegram. (
<hi rend="italic">Read</hi>: "Sept. 4th, 1876. From E. Froggatt to Harry Benson, care of Prefect of Police, Rotterdam. Am in
<lb/>structed to defend you. Send word when Druscovich arrives. No case against you." This is the second telegram, this was placed in my handsfirst. (
<hi rend="italic">Read</hi>: "Dec. 14, 1876. London, W. C From Froggatt, 6, Argyll Street, London, to Benson, care of Prefect of Police, Rotterdam.
<hi rend="italic">Fuffer</hi> has instructed me to defend the others; shall I defend you?"—
<hi rend="italic">Fuffer</hi> was William Kurr—I first saw Froggatt on the 18th December last year—he simply said that
<hi rend="italic">Fuffer</hi> had instructed him to defend me, and I asked him what he thought of the case—he said the extradition was bound to be cranted; that I could not have selected a worse place to come to than Holland, as the extradition treaty included everything, even assaults; and that if I had selected France I should have done much better, as, though there was an extradition treaty between England and France, it had not been ratified—he asked if I remembered the case of Walton, where the man was discharged—I said I did, and asked him if he could give me any information what was going on about Murray—he said the case had been remanded Last Saturday, the 16th—Mr. Poland, he said, had made some remarks about a 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. note, which he Froggatt had received in payment, and passed through his bankers—ultimately my extradition was granted—I came to England on the 12th of January of this year—prior to corning I received a telegram in prison at Rotterdam about the arrest of Kurr, but I am not sure about the wording of this telegram (
<hi rend="italic">produced</hi>)—Druscovich brought me from Rotterdam to London—on the voyage from Rotterdam to Harwich I had an interview with him—he came into the cabin, and after dismissing one of the officers in whose charge I was: I had before asked him to do so: he conversed with me—I spoke in French—we were alone—I asked him whether he could give me any information about the case—he said no, he could not give me any information whatever—he had, he said, been kept twenty-five days in Rotterdam, and he was evidently suspected, as nothing was imparted to him, and all his information was from the newspapers—I asked him how he knew he was suspected—he said they had written for his photograph, and he had replied that it would be found at the Home Office—he said he hoped the sides of the ship would open and that we should all go to the bottom—I echoed his wish and said "There is nothing tangible against you"—he said "I suppose you know how I became acquainted with Kurr; I wish I had never been acquainted with him;" and that he got into trouble through his brother, and accepted 60
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. from Kurr, underthe belief that he was a very different man to what he really was—I asked him where Madame de Goncourt was—he replied "She is in London "I said" We intend attempting to settle with her, and therefore the whole matter might drop"—he said he knew nothing about it at all, he was dreadfully compromised in the matter, he was not trusted, and he
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220142"/>
had his instructions written out—he was ordered to watch us carefully and it was even proposed at one time to send out a gunboat to fetch us' and lest I should cut my throat, my meat was to he cut up for me, and he had no discretion whatever—there were
<hi rend="italic">five</hi> other officers with Drus
<lb/>covich, a sergeant from Scotland Yard, and four detectives—there were three prisoners—I asked him if there were other complaints from France besides Madame De Goncourt's, and he said yes, ho had a great pile on his desk, some even about commissions that had not been paid—I asked him what had become of Kurr and what was known of Kurr—he said all he knew he read in the newspapers, and that was very little, and that having been in Rotterdam all the time he first saw him on the 9th, with the exception of twenty-four hours when he went back to spend Christmas, he could not give any information—I told him he might rely on Kurr that nothing would take place, that next day probably he would be placed in the box at Marlborough Street, and carefully cross-examined—he said if he was placed in the box he would have nothing to do but to answer that he had met Kurr—I urged him not to say anything until he was asked, and said that there was no proof of his seeing Kurr—when we got to Harwich we took the train to London, and I had a further conversation with Druscovich in the train—all the other officers and prisoners were present—they could not understand us, as I spoke French—nothing of importance in addition to what I have already told you was then said—he showed me a photograph of my servant, and asked me if I knew who it was—ho told mo how I came to be arrested through my servant—he said what a fool the man was to be in correspondence with some girl at Shanklin, and it was owing to that that information had reached the solicitor in London—either in the train or on board the steamer I asked him why he did not give us more time at the Bridge of Allan—he said he had given us as much time as possible, and would have given us more but for the cab
<lb/>man, McNab; that he was speaking to the landlord of the hotel about the intention of returning to Edinburgh without having found us, when McNab came in with a sergeant of the Bridge of Allan police—ho said "I know the men well, but I should never have suspected them"—Drus
<lb/>covich said he then had no other alternative but to follow up the clue, but nevertheless he had given us the whole of Sunday—I said that Sunday was no use to us, because we could not draw the money out of the bank—I remember one comment of his on board the boat was, "Well, my boys; I have done all I can for you, now you must do the best you can for yourselves"—although he said "boys," it was said to me alone—I said that the whole matter, so far as the cabman and the impossibility of cashing the cheques were concerned, was exceedingly unfortunate and ill-timed.

<hi rend="italic">Wednesday, October 31st.</hi> 

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-363" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-363" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-363" type="surname" value="BENSON"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-363" type="given" value="HARRY"/>HARRY BENSON</persName> </hi> (
<hi rend="italic">continued</hi>). When I was brought back from Rotterdam to London I was confined in the cells at Marlborough St. Police-court—I saw Mr. Froggatt there once—I had previously seen him at Rotterdam—the interview at Rotterdam was the first time I saw him—at Rotterdam he spoke to mo about Kurr under the name of
<hi rend="italic">" Fuffer"</hi>—he said "1 come from
<hi rend="italic">Fuffer;</hi> you know who that means?"—I said "Yes"—he then said "He has instructed mo to appear and to defend you and to do all I can for you"—we then went into what I stated yesterday—he men
<lb/>tioned
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220143"/>
others of my associates—he said Walters was in trouble at the time; some discussion or some difference had arisen between Walters and Kurr—he did not say what trouble Walters was in, he said something in the City—I saw Froggatt several times at the House of Detention—at Rotterdam I spoke of a telegram he had sent before he left, in which he had announced Kurr's arrest, and in which he had referred to a scheme he evidently had for our release, I should imagine—I asked him to explain, and he said he would explain when I saw him at the House of Detention on Monday—I saw him at the House of Detention on Monday, 15th January—I told him many of his letters I imagined had not reached my hands, there had been a great deal in some of his telegrams, and I knew from Druscovich all the letters I had written to him had been copied—I asked him then to explain the phrase in his telegram, "Trust me," as it denoted he had some plan or scheme—he said that he had a plan, but that Kurr did not trust him—ho spoke of Kurr by his own name then—he said that he had executed all Kurr's orders; that he had tried by Kurr's instructions to get the landlord of the office, No. 8, Northumberland Street, to abstain from appearing as a witness, but that apparently the solicitor for the prosecution had got on the right side of Flintoff, the landlord, and that nothing had come of it—at this or a subsequent inter
<lb/>view I stated I thought the only way in which the matter could be arranged was that a settlement could be arrived at between the prosecu
<lb/>trix and ourselves—Froggatt stated that he, was of that opinion too—he asked me whether I had any of the Clydesdale Bank notes—I said that I had, but that they were in the hands of a friend—he said that he could either for 10 or for 15 per cent, get rid of those notes if we chose, and he asked me how many notes I had—I stated I had twelve, I believed, and he said "Kurr says he has 17; call it £3,000."—I said that would hardly be what was due to the prosecutrix, and he said, 'Yes, there would be a further loss"—I replied, "I should not feel disposed to bear that loss; the prosecutrix must take the Scotch notes; she could get them easily changed, whereas we could not"—I then asked him if he would be ready for undertake the negotiations—he said yes, if the money were placed in his hands—on Thursday, February 8th, while I was having an inter
<lb/>view with our solicitor's clerk (we had then changed Mr. Froggatt) Froggatt came into the room and said, "I have this day taken out a summons for perjury against Flintoff"—either at that interview or pre
<lb/>viously he had told me he could prove by independent witnesses that Flintoff had committed perjury—I think it was at the previous interview he showed me that the six drafts (
<hi rend="italic">produced</hi>) five on the Credit Lvonnaise and one on the Socioto Generate which I received from Madame de Goncourt—I gave them to Bale and F. Kurr—some of them are endorsed by F. luirr only, and others by both F. Kurr and Bale—the 10,000
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. in cheques produced, drawn on the "Royal Bank of London," were sent to Madame de Goncourt—wo sent from 80,000
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. to 90,000
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. in these sham cheques to Madame de Goncourt—in the course of the fraud we also received French notes, which were changed, and the proceeds divided—the French paper nnnpy was given to Bale—after being committed for trial I was sent to Newgate—while in Newgate I communicated with Kurr clandestinely—onone occasion I communicated with Kurr in chapel—Kurr spoke first, replied to him.

<hi rend="italic">Cross-examincd by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. WILLIAMS</hi>. The newspaper advertisement by
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220144"/>
means of which I first became acquainted with Kurr was one requiring "a person who could write articles on any given subject—I answered it in writing, and subsequently in person—I was engaged to write a leading article in a piper—there was no salary named at the time—I Was asked to give my services at first on probation; I did so one week—subsequently I received five guineas per week simply for writing one article weekly sometimes two—at first I did not know the article was manufactured for the purposes of fraud—I was two mouths before I discovered it—I was not taken in as partner in the fraud till another two months—I was afterwards mixed up with Kurr in the different frauds up to the time of my arrest—I only participated in the profits equally with Kurr once, in the De Goncourt fraud—in the others I received one-eighth and ouf-fifth.—Kurr concocted the schemes and I assisted in carrying them out—I did the foreign element—outside these frauds, and before I became mixed up with Kurr, I once assumed an alias for the purposes of fraud—in Brus-els and in Paris I assumed the name of Count de Montaigu for social purposes, not for the purposes of fraud, for getting into society under a false name and title—that was in 1871—I was successful socially—in Brussels I was not the whole time under the name of Count de Montaigu, I was both in my own name, Benson, and that name—both were not equally successful socially—I passed in both names at the same time—I was Benson to some people and Montaigu to others—I lived in very good style at that time—I used both names on my cards; I had a double set—I represented the
<hi rend="italic">Gaulois</hi> paper at that time in the name of Benson—I was both Benson and Montaigu to my employers—I shrouded myself in air of mystery as Benson, and said it was an assumed name, that in reality I belonged to a noble family—I represented myself in Brussels as the son of a general officer—that was all false—I did not cease to be Montaigu after leaving Brussels—T went to Nice for two months after leaving Brussels—at Nice I was Montaigu—I dropped Benson—the name of Montaigu was assumed for social purposes—I do not know that it ended in fraud—I swear that—there was a process against me, but I do not know for what purpose—I took care to go—I do not know for certainty that it was for forging the name of Montaigu—I knew a man named Picard there—ho was not my friend—he was an acquaintance—hewas originally a barrister—he was then playing 1 at Monaco—I imagine the process was in connection with a forged bill, but I do not know it—it was suggested that I forged the natle of Montaigu—I left Nice for Paris on Oct. lutli, 1871—I was at Paris two or three weeks as Benson—I continued the name of Count de Montaigu also in London for social purposes always—I was socially successful in London under an assumed name and false title—I continued the name of Montaigu till my arrest on 23rd November, 1871, for the Lord Mayor's fraud—another name I assumed was Marquis Montmorenci, for the pur
<lb/>pose of fraud, I am sorry to say—I had 12 months' imprisonment—when I came out of prison I passed as Yonge until April last year—when 1—went to Biarritz on 9th July last year I changed my name to Montapo, altering two letters—that was not fraudulent—if it is "fraudulent" in the depositions it is a mistake—it was without any intention to commit fraud—from Biarritz I went to Paris in the same name—in connection with these frauds I assumed no othr name—I did not assume the name of Prince Murat, although I led Clarke to believe it—I said before the magistrate
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220145"/>
he asked me what my real name was, and I said Murat—my handkerchief iras not manufacturedif or the purpose—the coronetand "M" belonged to the lion taigu—the letters were "
<hi rend="italic">G</hi> M."—I first made up my mind to give information to the Tieasury on April 23rd, the day of my sentence—I did not make up my njind to bring these charges against the police—I did not
<hi rend="italic">Inott</hi> Kurr was going to give information—I do not know which was the first—Kurr knew I had given information—he asked me the question in chapel on April 26th; Kurr said "I understand you have given informa
<lb/>tion to the Treasury"—I made one wiitteu communication to the Treasury before the detectives vere charged before the magistrate—that is the oaly written one I made—I saw the solicitors to the Treasury during the investigation and several times before—Kurr and I frequently com
<lb/>municated with each other in the House of Detention before our trial, by letter and by verbal message—we communicated each time our solicitor came, every day for a fortnight, Sundays excepted—I had more nick
<lb/>names than one, as a rule two—they would be names that would, be understood by me and Kurr only, sometimes using one and sometimes the other—I do not know where we arranged the scheme—I really forget—it was arranged from time to time, in letters as a rule—we used to fix upon names, and then we would say '"In future, so aud so will be so and eo"—that was in writing—that was a continuous plan, arranged and changed as we went on—it was not all arranged beforehand, because the names were changed—they were continually changed I in iy eay—there was a pre-arranged scheme between us to communicate with each other,' supposing we were taken into custody—we always had nicknames, and it was au understood thing if we communicated between ourselves that we should employ those nicknames, so thai in the event of a letter falling into the hands of any of the authorities it could not be understood—that pkn wasformed before I wasin the House of Detention; it was lormed in the cells of the ilarlborough Street Police Court—in t'le letters the—'d "was tiken out of "Poodle" and made my nickname into
<hi rend="italic">u</hi> Foole"—Kurr was "Fijier" and "Williams"—I was "Poole" and "Harwood"—we deter
<lb/>mined upon the names of the other persons mentioned in the correspondence gradually—when I was at Marlborough Street Kurr said nothing what
<lb/>ever about turning upon me and the rest of ids confederates—he asked m' it I was aware that the Treasury had offered a full pardon to the people who would give information about me and return the money—that was before I was committed for trial, at Marlborough Street—it was while I was under examination there—I said nothing in answer to the suggestion—I did not say that I did not think it would be wise for him to do that, be
<lb/>cause he did not even suggest that he would do so—I wab asked this question at the police-court "Do you know that a full pardon was offered, and that if kurr had stated who you were he could have been released?" and I then said it would not have been safe; it would have been unwise for him to do so," and you will find that also in the depositions—I know I said that it would be unwise for him so to do—I have communicated with no one since my conviction, except upon that occasion of the 26th of which I told you—that was in chapel, never by writing—I bribed the warders in Newgate—I did say before the magistrate that Kurr said "Are you aware that it I choose to give evidence about you I shall get a full pardon and l,000
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>.?"—said at the police-court it would be hardly safe—you asked me that question—I said that to Kurr or Murray—I did not say before
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220146"/>
the magistrate that I hoped to get a remission of a portion of my sentence—if you will repeat the question as you put it to me at the police-court I will tell you what I said—von asked me if I had any hope, and I said that "he, indeed, would be utterly hopeless who had no hope"—I did not say I hoped to get a remission of a portion of my sentence—you said that I said I hoped—that was all I said—I meant by that that every man has a hope—you asked me that question, and I at first refused to reply to it—I simply said I hoped, and you added the word "remission"—I was not asked whether I hoped to get a remission of my sentence—I was asked "Have you any hope?" and I said "Yes I have," after being very much pressed, and then you added "Have you any hope of remission?" and I refused to answer the question—in reply to the question "Do you have a hope that you will be let loose again on society?" I said "Yes"—I did mean to convey by that that I hoped to get a remission of my sentence—I saw the City solicitor, Mr. Nelson, besides the interviews I had with the solicitors to the Treasury—that was on the 18th of June or July—I made a communication to him—the interview with him lasted about an hour—I did not swear before the magistrate that I had bribed Inspector Bailey of the City Police—I distinctly refused to say that I had bribed Bailey or anyone else—I did say that 15
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. a week was set aside for a considerable time for Inspector Bailey—I do not remember saying that from circumstances that subsequently came to my knowledge I was convinced that he had received it—I will not swear that I did not—I did say since the 15
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. per week was set aside for Inspector Bailey that I believed he was bribed—it was set aside for about six weeks—that was in connection with the Murray and Walters fraud, the Insurance against Losses on the Turf—I did mention a person of the name of Andrews at Shanklin during the investigation—I became acquainted with Andrews by means of an adver
<lb/>tisement—that was in February or March, 1875—I answered his adver
<lb/>tisement—I do not know that it was relative to a partnership, in the advertisement it was simply that somebody wanted to borrow money on good security, offering good security, and I answered it in the name of Yonge—Andrews came down to Shanklin to see me, and I subsequently agreed to place a certain sum of money in his business without incurring any risk—the sum was 3,000
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>.—Andrews was to find the business; the business was in existence—I do not think he was to find any money, nor do I think he found any—I suggested very much later that he should borrow a cheque for 500
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>.—I put in something like 2,600
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>.—it is easily proved—I did not subsequently suggest to him that he should borrow a cheque from Hodingham—I did not know from whom he should borrow it or where—he brought me a cheque upon Hollingham for 500
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>.—I do not know that Hollingham charged Andrews with stealing it—I took it and used the proceeds—I knew it was not obtained fraudulently—the fraud on the Lord Mayor for which I suffered 12 months' imprisonment was for falsely representing myself to be the Mayor of Chatreaudun, and obtaining a sum of 1,000
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. from the Lord Mayor—that was in connection with the French war—it was a fund for the relief of Chatreaudun that I wanted to organise, and it was a fund that was being raised at the Mansion House for the purpose of aiding the French—I first became aware that Kurr intended to set up an
<hi rend="italic">alibi</hi>, during the trial, after the trial had commenced—Kurr's witnesses
<hi rend="italic">were</hi> called on the Friday, and to
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220147"/>
the best of my recollection he told me on the Thursday, or perhaps on the Friday before, I should not like to say—I believe it was on the Thursday he told me that he intended setting up an
<hi rend="italic">alibi</hi>—he did not tell me that he bad been offered two
<hi rend="italic">stretches</hi> instead of ten—what he said to me was that if he chose to give information he had been told by his own solicitor that it was probable or possible that he might get two
<hi rend="italic">stretches</hi> instead of more, but he did not say ten—at that time the sentence was not passed—before bis sentence he told me that—by giving information, I mean giving information against the prisoners—Colkett went by the name of "Sheer-ness" in this correspondence, also by the name of "Keetus"—I did at gome time intend going to Egypt—that was what I stated—it was in June, 1876—I was going to Egypt for two purposes—the first was, at least at the time I speak to, I had an intention of raising a loan, but it failed—I mean by that a loan for the Viceroy of Egypt—I was going to raise the loan with a body of capitalists—I did not enter into communication with the Viceroy directly, but indirectly—I communicated with his son—that was a bona
<hi rend="italic">fide</hi> loan, which did not come off—I also wished to get rid of certain fraudulent Bastrop bonds—that was also my purpose in going to Egypt—I Knew that they were worthless, and I tried to get some more—with regard to those that were in my possession, I attempted to pass, and did pass some of them off—I knew a man named Colletso—I only knew him by that name—he did put himself into communication with me and Kurr for the purpose, as he then stated, of embarking a large sum of money in the turf frauds—I did not telegraph abroad for the purpose of making in
<lb/>quiries about him and find that he was a swindler—a telegram was sent, and I incurred a loss of 15
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. or 16
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>.; more, I believe, 18
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>.—I received a large quantity of Bastrop bonds from Colletso—I do not know howmany sheets of them, but I received the nominal value of 100,000 dols., but the real value
<hi rend="italic">nil—I</hi> received those bonds with a draft from Colletso to try and negotiate the draft, giving the bonds as a collateral security, and to raise a sum of 8,000
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>., not to invest in my frauds at that time when he actually gave me the bonds; it was not for that purpose, it was to float bis own company, the Bastrop Coal Company—Colletso got nothing for his bonds—I kept them all—I did not endeavour to sell them—I endeavoured on raise money upon them, but I never endeavoured to sell them or sold hem—I endeavoured to raise money upon them at the time I knew they cere worth nothing—I had not expended a farthing, Kurr endeavoured of get his money back—I believe that was at the time he represented a etective—I have no doubt about it from what I have heard—either Kurr Walters told me so—one of them represented the detective, I know—I should not like to say whether both told me so or one—I know one told ie so, perhaps both—they told me that on one Sunday night they had roceeded to the Midland Grand Hotel, where Colletso resided, and that they had asked Colletso—one of them had represented himself as being a Richardson, a detective, and said that he had come to claim a sum of 3
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. or 15
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>., I should not like to swear which, which had been incurred sending telegrams at his (Colletso's) desire, and that they wished him refund it, otherwise they would arrest him—Colletso laughed at it, the ruse, if it was a ruse, did not succeed—I never heard that when had gone to the Midland Hotel, one of them representing himself as detective, and that they had searched him and turned his pockets out I never heard of it until you mentioned it at the police-court—I repre
<lb/>sented
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220148"/>
that my lameness was the result of an accident on the London and North-Western Railway; that was untrue—I made that statement fre
<lb/>quently at Shanklin—I led it to be inferred that Yonge was not my real name that in reality I was a person of distinction, passing, for reasons of my own' under the name of Yonge—I don't know that I forced myself into society by that means—I went into society very much before that—I remember making a list of the warders of Newgate—this is it (
<hi rend="italic">produced</hi>)—that was taken from me—a letter was also taken away from me alleged to be addressed from Bale's father to my father; that was Kurr's invention—this (
<hi rend="italic">pro
<lb/>duced</hi>) is it—it was written by Kurr, and passed to me in Newgate, and found in my pocket; it was sent to me to know what I thought of it. (
<hi rend="italic">This purported to be written by Bale's father to Benson's father, and was an urgent appeal to him to aid in subscribing the necessary amount to settle with Madame de Goncourt, and so avert the disgrace upon a family of unsullied honour.</hi>) I did not know then that Bale had no father, I heard it at the trial—that letter was passed to me to know if I would consent that such a letter should be sent to my father—I believe Bale was a greengrocer before he was associated with me in these frauds—this other letter to my father was taken from me on 21st March, together with another letter to Kurr—the letter to Kurr was written first, I should not like to say how long before the one to my father, perhaps a day, I believe a day; the one to Kurr was written on Tuesday, 20th, and the other on the 21st, before twelve o'clock—they were both written within a day following (
<hi rend="italic">Read</hi>: "My dear Father,—You may imagine what depth of despair and distress I must have reached to dare address you whom I have so fearfully wronged and grieved; but in you is now centred my only hope, and therefore, it is better that I should face your just wrath than depute a third person to do. I will not (nor can I, for I am so sick of hopes constantly deferred) tell you how each day, during the last six weeks, has dawned with a faint prospect of success, and how it has closed with no hope. To live as I have done for months now is worse than death. I am now driven to the limits of my reason. I have lost all hope. Despair has hold of me, and in the extremity of my need I turn to you, who are my father, and beg you to save me. I know I have no right to ask you for anything, nor would I even do so were you to run any risk, but you (under God) have it in your sole power to save me from my doom. Were I to tell you what the result of my reflections has been, that I have formed, and with God's help, will carry out, good resolves, you would probably and also reason
<lb/>ably retort 'I don't believe you, you have made so many professions and and so few promises have you kept that I will not and cannot believe you.' Yet I am sincere this time, so help me God. I intend to carry out my good resolves if I am set free, and I intend to commit suicide if I am prosecuted. I can do you one good turn by saving you from the fearful
<hi rend="italic">expose</hi> of a
<hi rend="italic">cause celebre</hi>, and I will do so, for my judges I will not face. What mercy could I expect from strangers when my own father refuses to save me? But is flesh and blood nothing? Am I not flesh of your flesh, the bone of your bone; and is not blood stronger than water. That letter was intended to go to my father in Paris—that letter was written after I had written this one to Kurr, within twenty-four hours. Mr. Williams
<hi rend="italic">here read portions of the letter, which the witness explained as follows</hi>:—"Another straw for us to cling to—supposing that Baxter were of Batty's opinion, here is our negotiation, Forbes," that is Madame da
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220149"/>
Goncourt, "Forbes there says I won't be married," meaning I will not prosecute, "we know this, and we send that b——f——Batty to his dear friend Monkey"—"Batty" is Mr. Humphreys, "Monkey" is the Treasury—I think so, it represents the prosecution—I believe it repre
<lb/>sents the solicitor to the Treasury, Mr. Stephenson or Mr. Pollard—I don't know; it represents the solicitor to the Treasury, whoever he may be. "The family has settled with Cowdery, he won't come"—"Cowdery" is another name for Madame de Goncourt. "You have a good excuse, therefore, to close up the whole affair while pretending to figure, and my clients will if you drop it and Forbes be satisfied
<hi rend="italic">give</hi> you some flower show information," that is information concerning the police. "Monkey's honour will be saved, Cowdery satisfied, and Monarch gets what he fancies will enable him to renovate the gardener's system"—"Monarch" is the Treasury; this was language thoroughly understood between Kurr and myself, and was invented as we went on. "Thomas Taper can say nothing"—that is the press—"and the country would be saved a lot of expense. This I fancy will suit the the b——f——, he will be able to show his pomposity and say 'Through me the whole affair is ended.' Through me Monarch knew all about it. Indeed yesterday the beast began winking at me, and said, 'You will never know what I have (tone for you, but you will find the good of it later' (yes, 15 pennorths)." When I wrote this letter I had hopes that a settlement might be arrived at; when I wrote the other letter, I knew it was no use—my penitence came with my loss of hope of a settlement. "I may tell you that the governor has ordered no books to be destroyed anywhere until further orders," that is "telegrams." "I have got no confidence at all in him, and the only trust I can put in him is in the fact of the ludicrous vanity in which I have now to play. Our position is simply this. If Baxter ays, 'You are all right, provided Forbes does not get married,' hen we tell Batty to go and consult and learn his lessons from a clever lan. If he says, 'Batty is right,' I leave it to Williams to decide hether or not we adopt the gardener scheme besides satisfying orbes." "Williams" there means Kurr. "If not, we must prepare the very worst, if I have not been able to send out my
<hi rend="italic">flick</hi> to Sheer-ess," that is, my letter to Colkett. "Don't detain Batty long, but pack off at once. If Baxter says we are right, then Sheerness goes to atty the first thing to-morrow. Baxter is my man"—Baxter is George Lewis. "Harwood has planned and schemed all his but he never planned and schemed as much in his hole life as he has done for the last three months"—"Harwood" is (self—I have schemed all my life, and never so much as in the last three nths before writing that letter "to get out of prison, but unfortunately thout success hitherto, for as fast as one thing has been squared a greater ficulty has turned up. Be sure you put Sheerness's letter in a sealed develope; I find I have none, and it is not good enough to give it open a
<hi rend="italic">'screw'"</hi>—that is a warder—"Harwood will leave it with Batty; tract Batty to send it forthwith to Keetus"—that is Colkett—"I will with Elong to meet Moppy"—Elong was one of the warders, 0 is gone—"if Batty reports favourably I will write letter to Mrs. L., manage to let Sheerness have it before he leaves Birmingham"—is Newgate—"only I don't know the address. Be sure you read before you leave Harvey"—Harvey was my solicitor, Mr. Humphreys;
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220150"/>
he also had
<hi rend="italic">two</hi> names—"and do not give Fathead any flicks for outside"—Fathead was a warder—"he is on duty to-night, and will call on you for flicks for me every half-hour, so be ready when he calls"—he was calling for letters every half-hour—"Elong is the only one in whom any faith is to be placed; he is the only one who knows of the Hatton haunt"—I don't know what that is; I have not forgotten what it means, but I don't know where it was; it was some place of meeting for the purpose of giving information, for the purpose of receiving letters—"A thought has just struck me about Hood"—I don't know who he was, ho was not a man that came to see me in Newgate, I believe it is Kurr—"he says that everything is so awfully dear in Dublin"—that is, in Paris—"and he forwards the amount of his bill, which is under 6
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>., and he has had 40; it shows that he takes us fur b——f——s not to know the value of Irish money"—that means French money—"he will get the diamonds and gang to Hookeyland"—that means, get the money and go to New York—"this I defy him to do unless he cracks Poole's drum, which. God forbid"—that is, unless he breaks open the place where the notes are kept, and takes them away. Having written that letter on the 20th, I still say I was sincere in the letter I wrote to my father within twenty-four hours.

<hi rend="italic">Cross-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. STRAIGHT</hi>. The language in that letter is not language that I have been in the habit of using with Kurr in conversa
<lb/>tion—all those terms, with the exception of my nickname and Kurr's, were settled after wo were taken into custody; it is perfectly obvious that they must have bean—
<hi rend="italic">flicks</hi> is an understood term, and so is "drum"—I never saw Druscovich until I saw him at Rotterdam, at the Tribunal de Correctionale—the proceedings there were conducted in French and in Dutch—I understand French thoroughly—Druscovich speaks French—Druscovich mentioned my name in the court there, and identified me as Benson—he said he had been present at certain proceedings at the Mansion House in London—I was at this time passing in the name of George Washington Morton—I denied that I was Benson—I heard Druscovich say that if I was examined certain marks would be found—there were very large scars—the jewellery was purchased at Benson's, on Ludgate Hill, on November 1st, I do not remember whether at my suggestion or at Kurr's—it was quite understood that it was for Mrs. Druscovich—20
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. was paid for it, not 25
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>.—it was a gold necklet, and the medallion was a carbuncle set in gold, with a diamond in the centre—I only saw one telegram from Druscovich to Meiklejohn at Derby, and I do not know that any others were sent—Meiklejohn most decidedly conveyed to my mind that at the time Druscovich borrowed the money of William Kurr, he believed him to be the owner of racehorses; I am quite clear as to that.

<hi rend="italic">Cross-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. BESLEY</hi>. I had ceased to use sticks on the 17th October, 1876—I remained in the cab the whole time—it was some time in August, at half-past six in the evening—I am unable to fix the day—Kurr alighted from the cab, and I saw him speak to a man who passed from the horse's head to the back of the cab—his back was to me—it was only a momentary observation—upon the occasion of the tapping with an umbrella at the office window, I saw through the opaque glass—I might have been seen—I remained within the room—I have stated before, to Mr. Abrahams I think it was, that when Kurr left with 10
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. he
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220151"/>
took the
<hi rend="italic">Sport also</hi>—I have made five or sis statements, which have been reduced into writing—I have no feeling of revenge against any of the defendants—I am perfectly friendly towards the whole party—I consider the doom of a convict a terrible doom, and would not desire my worst enemy to undergo it—it was not from any motive of selfishness that I rave information to the Treasury; if I hud consulted my own feelings I should not be here—I did not first of all endeavour to induce the Crown to accept a plea of guilty to the misdemeanour, by tempting the Crown with the offer to give information as to other frauds—I offered a plea of guilty, and a return of the money to Madame de Goncourt, if they would withdraw the indictment for felony—there is a reference to my offer to give information as to other frauds in my letter, but that is the only one—it was some time in March—I suggested it, and was told it would not be accepted—I knew the Court could give me seven years only, and it was with a view to lessen that that I offered information—I suggested to my solicitor that I should get out on bail and not appear again—I did not say "escape"—that suggestion was made, perhaps, a fort
<lb/>night before the 31st of March—I suggested that if allowed out on bail I would give information to the Treasury about the police—my sole object then was to get away from punishment—it is not my sole motive how—that was my motive in part; the other part is not made up of evenge—I hope to assist not only Kurr, but all.

<hi rend="italic">Cross-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. CLARKE</hi>. Rose Bank is a pleasant and pretty and tell furnished house, with all the appointments of a gentleman's house.—I took Mrs. Avis there as my housekeeper—I had a valet—at that time I as unable to walk at all, and was obliged to be carried about the house, ad taken to the seashore in a carriage—I had a coachman and a housemaid—I had my own carriage—my education has been good—I am an accom
<lb/>lished musician, as well as a performer and composer—I got into the 1st society in Shanklin in 1875—there was no suspicion at that time that ere was anything wrong about my history, my lameness preventing my ing into society much—Mr. Andrews is a colonial broker in the City of radon—it was through him I communicated with Scotland Yard, and ocured the visit of Inspector Ciarke—I know a person named Hall the letter from him to Scotland Yard was not written at my suggestion he is related to Mrs. Avis—I first heard of his letter on the night of 12th of April, 1875—that was the day Inspector Clarke made his first it to Shanklin—he referred to the fact of the letter being signed by all—I had seen Hall before that time—Clarke told me on the evening the first interview that his visit was an official one, and that his senses were paid at Scotland Yard—Mr. Andrews was staying at anklin at that date—he had come down on that day—he met Clarke 1 brought him to my house—I knew on that evening that Andrews 1 obtained Clarke's address from Scotland Yard—money matters were pending between Andrews and me at that time, they were completed lst April—the completion did not result in my having a bill of rews's in my possession—a letter of guarrantee for 3,000
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. was deposited a the banker—I had a long talk with In Inspector Clarke in the Isle of ght, and mentioned a railway accident as the cause of my lameness—mming speculation was contemplated at that time, but much later on was contemplated in Wales, but not carried out—I do not recollect tromng that to Clarke—I did not say at the police-court "Shore had
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220152"/>
told me before this case that Clarke was the means of obtaining a publican's licence for Walters, and received from him a sum of 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>."—I said that Walters told me so—I never spoke to Shore in my life it is evidently a mistake—Shore's name was mentioned in the conversation, but not in connection with the 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. or with a publican's licence—Wood was in the habit of visiting Walters in prison, and who tried to tamper with a witness—it was brought to my knowledge that night that Hill, a barman, was accused of tampering with witnesses, but I did not know it at the time, nor who Wood was, or that he was a friend of Walters, assisting him in the turf frauds—he was acting as errand boy to Walters, that would be the better way of putting it—I had never seen Walters—a man named Mitchell was also acting in the same capacity as Wood, trying to corrupt the witnesses, but he had nothing to do with the Walters and Murray frauds to my knowledge—he is the person against whom I warned Clarke in a letter—Clarke gave me no information that night save what I have related—he asked me about my knowledge of Kurr that night or next morning—I did not choose to tell him exactly what I knew; but made up something to deceive him—I told him that Kurr was an innocent man, and I gave him the names of some persons who have been mentioned as having been bribed—one name was mentioned; I will not swear to more than one—I told him that some members of the police force had received bribes—I said at the police-court, "I told him I had likewise been told that many members of the force had received a consideration," and I remember giving him the names of one or two—I also said "I gave him names, though in two instances the names were false"—those were the only two I gave—I mentioned Inspector Bailey of the City police, and two names at Scotland Yard—in both those instances the statements that they had received bribes were false, but the names were the names of real persons at Scotland Yard—that was in order to deceive Clarke—I proposed to return Clarke's letters when he declined to write—it appeared to me that he distrusted me, and I made the offer to return his letters in order to induce his confidence—on 12th April I obtained information through Kurr with regard to Murray and Walters, and wrote to Clarke on 12th August, 1875, warning him against them—at the end of 1874 a man named Trevelli was associated with Walters in a betting fraud—in 1875 I gave Inspector Clarke information with regard to Trevelli, which infor
<lb/>mation I got from Kurr—I do not know whether it was true—to the best of my recollection it was with reference to a betting office or swindle to be opened at Croydon by Trevelli—it afterwards came to my knowledge that Clarke had acted upon the information I gave, and had sent to Croydon—from April to September, 1875, I was living in the Isle of Wight in good style, and was accepted by the gentlemen there as their associate and equal—I was the proprietor of a newspaper in the Isle of Wight in 1875—I purchased the copyright in September, although I had been proprietor actually since February—in April, when Clarke came to see me from Scotland Yard, I was actually in command and control of that paper—to the best of my recollection no mention was made in it of Clarke's visit, but in the natural course of things his name would be entered in the hotel books, and published in the newspaper, but I do not remember it—I formed the acquaintance of Captain Harvey at the Isle of Wight in 1875, but there was no friendship between us—in September I learned that he was making inquiries relative to my antecedents—Mr.
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220153"/>
Nicholls, a private inquiry agent, was employed by him—I told him that I was employed as agent for the French Government, and that secret service money might pass through his hands—I did not tell him that personally I could make the money pass through his hands—I mentioned a large sum, I forget whether it was 200,000
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. a year—I said that I was indirectly an agent for the French Government—I also represented to Mr. Nicholls that I was receiving, directly, information from the great chief, that is Colonel Henderson, of Scotland Yard—that was not true—I was deceiving Mr. Nicholls while I was employing him—at the same time I was keeping up, by my newspaper and with my house, a neat appearance amongst the people of Shanklin—I also represented to Mr. Nicholls that I was in communication with the Empress of Austria, who was then staying in Norfolk; and told him that there was a possibility, through my means of introduction, of her honouring Shanklin with a visit, but not of honouring Rose Bank—I intended visiting the Empress, and I believe I did say so, because it was my intention—from 12th April to the end of 1875 I was in the habit of conducting my own correspondence—before going to the Isle of "Wight, Mrs. Avis had never been employed by me to write or copy any letters; but on the 13th of April I asked her to copy for me the draft of the first letter which I wrote to Inspector Clarke, and she continued to copy letters for me until she left on the 5th My, 1875—after that I wrote in my own hand—after July I had no housekeeper in my service, but I had a cook—the establishment at Rose Bank then consisted of the cook, the housemaid, the coachman, and Piquot—this letter, dated Sept. 15, was written by me to Clarke—the Trevelli mentioned in it is the person to whom I have referred—I do not know where he is; he was sentenced, I believe, to five years' penal servitude.
<hi rend="italic">This letter was dated September</hi> 15
<hi rend="italic">th</hi>, 1875,
<hi rend="italic">and signed T. H. Y. It stated</hi> '—Your letter, which I return enclosed, and mine must have crossed, &c. I have written for particulars concerning Trevelli, and as soon as I receive them I will communicate them to you, &c. I daresay in the course of a couple of days I shall be able to give you some valuable news.") From the date of that letter I had not constantly represented to Clarke that I could obtain information for him about the persons implicated in these frauds, and any point which he wanted elucidated I would endeavour to clear up—that was honest so far as concerned the turf frauds—I was honestly representing to Clarke that I was getting information for him, and I was getting it from Kurr—Palmer was not one of the
<hi rend="italic">two</hi> names mentioned at Scotland Yard as having been bribed—I am sure of that—I remember two out of these three letters from Inspector Clarke in September, 1875—the one I do not remember is dated 28.9.75—it is in Clarke's writing, and has the Shanklin post-mark (
<hi rend="italic">Read: "</hi> Sept. 14, 1875, from George Clarke, of 20, Gt. College Street, Westminster. Dear Sir,—Many thanks for your note of the 9th. I find that Trevelli is now sending out betting circulars from No. 12, Dairy Terrace, Croydon; but the man I sent made a mistake. Trevelli appears to be hard up. The speculation, whatever it may, does not seem to be a very paying one. I should be glad to have a line from you at your leisure."—"September 22, 1858. To G. H. Young. Dear Sir,—Yours to hand. I thank you for the address of Trevelli, although at present it is of no use to me. I had no purpose in seeing you on Monday—Yours truly, G. Clarke." "28 Sept., 1875. From G. Clarke. Dear Sir,—In reply to yours of
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220154"/>
26th, I shall be glad to receive any information you can give, but I can
<lb/>not undertake to let you know how I intend to use it." Mrs. Avis left Rose Bank on 5th July, 1875, and went to live at 44, Cawley Road Victoria Park—Mr. Hall, her son-in-law, was living somewhere in the north of London, I believe—Mrs. Avis continued to live at Cawley Road till March, 1876—I was in communication with her every quarter—I made her an allowance down to the time I was taken in custody—when she left Cawley Road she went to live in Leaconfield Road, somewhere in the north—I never saw her there—I saw her once in London, I believe it was in February at Bentinck Street, Cavendish Square—I have seen her once since then, in Newgate—when I first went to live with her her husband was living—I went simply to be taken care of, as I was very ill from the effect of the burning in Newgate—my friends made her an allowance of 2
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. a week for taking charge of me—that continued for some time—the address was Paradise Terrace, Dalston—her husband died at the end of 1874—I did not give her any wages at Rose Bank, but have since made her an allowance of 40
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. a year—I did not see Mrs. Hall at any time during 1876—when I was in Newgate a man whom I knew by the name of Harrison called upon me—I believe his name was Izard, but am not sure—I only knew him by the name of Harrison—he lived at Dalston, either the "Waterloo Road or the Wellington Road, I am not sure which—Mrs. Avis came to see me in Newgate three or four times—Mr. George Lewis was my father's solicitor—he declined to take up the case for my defence upon the previous prosecution.

<hi rend="italic">Cross-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. COLLINS</hi>. I asked Mr. George Lewis to act for me on Saturday, 13th February, when I saw him at the police-court, at first he said he would see mo on the subject, but afterwards he refused—he was defending Kurr then—the telegram sent by Mr. Froggatt on 4th Dec. was not received by me until after the receipt of the second telegram of Dec. 14, which was "From Mr. Froggatt, 6, Argyle Street.
<hi rend="italic">Poodle</hi> instructs mo to defend the others, shall I defend you?" It was upon that both telegrams were given me—I know nothing of Froggatt at that time—I had seen his name as a solicitor practising in this Court, in the news
<lb/>papers, but he was an utter stranger to me—he employed a Dutch advocate named Arras to appear for me upon the question as to whether I should be sent out of the country or not—I only saw Mr. Froggatt once at Rotterdam—the Dutch advocate appeared for me—on Jan. 12th I came from Rotterdam to London—about the end of January Mr. Froggatt declined to act, so I placed my case and Kurr's in the hands of Messrs Humphreys and Son—I simply consulted thorn about my case—I saw them or their clerk constantly—I went from the House of Detention to Newgate on 10th February—sometime in March I made a suggestion that I was willing to give back the money and to be lot out on bail—someone went to Franco for me from Messrs. Humphreys and Son—when I first came over I wished to return the whole 10,000
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. to Madame de Goncourt—I was willing to hand over to her the Scotch notes—I hoped then that the proseeutrix would not come at all—I thought there would be no prosecution if the money was returned—I said at the police-court "During; my communication with Mr. Froggatt I had no idea of inducing him to act as an accessory to any crime that I committed"—he told me that with regard to the 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>.
<hi rend="italic">he</hi> had received that money in advance for his costs, as payment—I was of opinion that ho was trying to perform his duty
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220155"/>
to me properly and faithfully as a solicitor—the words I used before the magistrate were "Mr. Froggatt said the note was given to him simply in payment"—I believe the date of the conversation with Flintoff was 17th January; at was a Wednesday, I think—on Thursday, 8th February, Froggatt said that he had taken out a summons against Flintoff—I am positive it was either the 7th or 8th February—at that time Mr. Froggatt told me that Mr. Flintoff had stated at the trial that he, Froggatt, had offered him 50
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. not to identify Kurr—he appeared extremely indignant and angry, and said that he had taken out a summons for perjury against Flintoff—I have said I did not attempt to influence Mr. Froggatt to bribe any one, he made no suggestion to me"—it was on 15th January that he said that Kurr would not trust him—the first time the name of Flintoff was mentioned was either 15th or 17th January.

<hi rend="italic">Re-examined.</hi> When Froggatt told me that he had taken out a sum
<lb/>mons against Flintoff, I was in one of the rooms reserved for interviews between solicitors and prisoners at the House of Detention—I was first taken there on 13th January—Stenning was tried at this Court about the 6th or 7th; Flintoff gave evidence—it was perhaps a day after I had heard that the trial had taken place that Froggatt told me that he had taken out a summons against Flintoff—I had never seen Froggatt before he came to Rotterdam—I knew there was such a gentleman—it was at Rotterdam he told me he had got 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. in Clydesdale notes in payment—he did not say for what, or who had given it him—he did not tell me any
<lb/>thing more than that—I asked him how the case was proceeding with Hurray, who was in custody, and he told me Murray had appeared at the police-court on the previous Saturday, when Mr. Poland had made some remark about that 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. note, and then Froggatt told me that he had got this note in payment—there were two people in the room—I did not choose to go into particulars, so made no further inquiry on the subject, either then or subsequently—I asked my solicitor whether, if I gave the information that was required, I might be admitted to bail—I do not know that there was the understanding that we should not sur
<lb/>render, but in point of fact we should not have surrendered—it was either at the end of February, or the beginning of March, that this con
<lb/>versation took place—our solicitor told us it was absurd—it was from something Kurr had told me that I surmised that the Treasury required information respecting the police—I never heard it definitely—it was afterwards suggested that if we might only be tried for the misde
<lb/>meanour, obtaining the money by false pretences, we would plead guilty and restore the money—Mr. Williams asked me this: "I demand to know whether you do not expect your term of imprisonment to be shortened by giving this evidence; "I replied "I expect nothing, but I have hopes, and I submit, Mr. Williams, that that is a matter con
<lb/>cerning me alone; I have had no intimation to encourage any expec
<lb/>tations of this kind, but I hope for more mercy than I am likely to get from you"—I had no intimation, inducement, or allurement of any kind, at that time or since, to encourage any expectations—I
<hi rend="italic">lived</hi> with Mrs. Avis about nineteen months before I went to Shanklin—her husband was then ahve—he died on 22nd December, 1874—I did not go to Shanklin till 16th January—Mrs. Avis is about sixty, I should think—she has a son-in-law named Hall—she has several children; one of them, a son, was at school for about two years at my expense—I made her the allowance
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220156"/>
because she was exceedingly kind to me, and for no other reason whatever—there has been no improper conduct between myself and Mrs. Avis; if such a thing is suggested, there is not the slightest foundation for it—I last saw her on 20th April in Newgate while the trial was pending—the last time I saw her while I was out of Newgate was in Bentinck Street to the best of my recollection—the reason I got her to copy the letters to Clarke was because I did not wish any of my writing to fall into Clarke's hands at the time those letters were written—the letters she wrote were written between 13th April and 5th July—I was last at Shanklin on 27th June, 1876—I was perfectly unaware that Mrs. Avis had kept copies of the letters I had given her, till the drafts were placed in my hands in the police-court—in June, 1876, I gave some instructions to Mr. Clarke, a schoolmaster in Shanklin, with reference to some of my papers—Mr. Clarke, the defendant, came down to Shanklin for the first time on 12th April, and then I had a conversation with him—in that conversation mention was made of Mr. Hall, Mrs. Avis's son-in-law—Inspector Clarke said that if I had not asked to see him, he would have come down just the same, for he had received a written communication, which he showed me, signed "Hall," to the effect that I could give information on the matter of the turf fraud—the names of the visitors who came to Shanklin were, as a general rule, published in the paper; they are sent by the hotel-keepers—I did not see Clarke's name there—I had a communication from the Empress of Austria—I was desirous that she should visit the island—she could not come—I received this letter from the Austrian Ambassador; it is in French, in English it reads: "Austrian and Hungarian Embassy in London. London, 3rd April, 1876. Sir,—In answer to the request sent by you, in the name of the inhabitants of Shauklin, to Her Majesty the Empress, dated 23rd March, I am authorised to inform you that Her Majesty, whilst exceedingly touched by the sentiments of respect and of sympathy for her august person which have inspired your request, has not been able to accept or to give her' patronage to what you ask.—
<hi rend="italic">Signed</hi> Beust." Nicholls was first employed by Captain Harvey, then by me—I paid him—while in the House of Detention and in Newgate letters passed between Kurr and myself, but never after we were convicted—I was under the impression that they had all been destroyed—they were nearly all written in a language intelligible only to ourselves—I was acquainted, before I went to Newgate, with a good many slang expressions—"the brief is out" means the warrant—the nicknames alluded to in the course of cor
<lb/>respondence we fixed upon as we went along, when for the first time and in future we should call them by the nickname—I got letters conveyed to Kurr by bribing the warders—I used to leave com
<lb/>munications sometimes for Kurr, sometimes with the solicitor, as solicitor's instructions—I first became acquainted with Coletso, I think, in October, 1874—I knew him as Dr. Colitzo—I did not know till after his arrest that he had another name, Gray—he was an American—the Bastrop Coal Mine did exist in Texas; but it was not so productive as was represented—Coletso was endeavouring to bring out the mine—Coletso was endeavouring to convert the American company into an English company—I got two bonds from Meiklejohn after the interview in June—I also had from him some blank cheques—Druscovich was present when I was tried for the offence against the Lord Mayor—he was not a witness
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220157"/>
against me—he had not charge of the case—I never had him seen up to that time, to the best of my recollection—Druscovich put a stop to the Paris loan scheme, but he certainly was not aware that I and Kurr had any
<lb/>thing to do with that—I knew that from a remark made by Meiklejohn on the night of 4th or 6th August, which I have given in evidence.

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-364" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-364" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-364" type="surname" value="BALE"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-364" type="given" value="CHARLES"/>CHARLES BALE</persName> </hi>. I am convict, now undergoing tea years' penal servitude—I was convicted with Kurr and others in April last—I have known William Kurr for some years—about July last year I became his clerk—I was to receive 3
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. a week as salary, and 1-16th, or
<hi rend="italic">two</hi> shares, in the profits of the business—one Sunday in July, on returning from Dover with Benson, we were met in Cannon Street station, about five o'clock, by William Kurr, who said he had an appointment to meet Meiklejohn there—we waited at the station some time till Meiklejohn arrived by train—I had seen Meiklejohn many times before at the Alexandra Palace, at a public-house in the York Road, and elsewhere, and on one or two other occasions—I saw him at Alexandra Park in company with W. Kurr, but am not sure whether it was race-day—Kurr and I and a man named Mumford were with Meiklejohn at the public-house in the york Road—at the time Meiklejohn met us at Cannon Street Benson used to walk with crutches—when Meiklejohn arrived we went into the Cannon Street Hotel, and I carried Benson upstairs—they dined together at the hotel, while I went on a message for Kurr—I was there when the party broke up, about ten—we all left together, and left Meiklejohn outside—about the end of August last I took the name of Charles Jackson, and took lodgings at 12, St. James's Place—I changed my name in connection with the De Goncourt frauds, at the request of Kurr and Benson—I also took lodgings in Duke Street, in the name of Thomas Ellerton, and at Agar Chambers, Agar Street, Strand—I remember the business carried on at 8, Northumberland Street, about September, by Frederick Kurr, William Kurr, Benson, and myself—I was there the first day the business was carried on—Frederick Kurr, William Kurr, and Benson were there also—I cannot be certain if William Kurr was there all day, but he was there the first thing in the morning—I was employed in copying letters and running messages—I took the letters left at the lodgings to Northumberland Street—Kurr and Benson opened them, I did not—I do not under
<lb/>stand French—these (
<hi rend="italic">cheques produced</hi>) were filled up in my hand
<lb/>writing—they are on the Royal Bank of London—they are signed George Simpson, payable to the order of Jacob Francis and Charles Jackson—I endorsed the name of Thomas Ellerton on three of the drafts (
<hi rend="italic">produced</hi>), and changed them at Reinhardt's—I took the money to William Kurr and Benson—while at Northumberland Street I remember seeing Palmer, whom I had previously observed on one or two occasions in company with William Kurr—I remember seeing them in a public-house at Kennington Cross—I also have a faint recollection I saw Palmer with Kurr at the Oxford Arms, but I would not be certain when I saw him in Northumberland Street—he knocked at the window with a stick or an umbrella—I looked out, and said to Benson "It's Mr. Palmer"—William Kurr was not there at that time—Benson told me to go to the door and see Palme—I did so—he asked whether Kurr was in, and I replied that he was not—I said "Have you any message for him?"—Palmer answered "No"—that was all that passed—Kurr came to the
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220158"/>
office again that night after Palmer had been there—on the night before I went to Scotland I went to Ellerton's, 11, Duke Street, and took the letters from there to William Kurr's house; Frederick Kurr was with me—I left William Kurr and Benson in the house together—about 11 or 11.30 William Kurr met me in Islington, and we went to Benson's house, 120, Newington Green Road—William Kurr knocked at the door to speak to Benson, but it was not opened—I stood on the opposite side—William Kurr could not get admittance, or could not see Benson that night, and we left there next day—I, Benson, and William Kurr went to Scotland—I took the name of Elliott, and Frederick Kurr the name of Reynolds—we lodged at the Union Hotel, Glasgow—Benson stayed at McRae's Hotel, Bath Street, where we visited him—we remained at Glasgow about a week—Benson left first—we saw him off—I and Frederick Kurr went to Edinburgh and remained about four days—we left there for Scarborough—I did not go to Southampton at any time—we went from Scarborough to Hull, and returned to Edinburgh about the end of October or beginning of November—we remained in Edinburgh some time—I saw Benson there, but not William Kurr—I remember Benson leaving Edinburgh—a person named Broome left a box in my charge, which I sent off to London by train—after leaving Edinburgh Frederick Kurr and I went to Burntisland, and remained one night—I received a telegram there, in consequence of which we went to Leith, and ultimately to Manchester, when I received another telegram to meet William Kurr at Derby, followed by another telegram altering the appointment, to meet him at St. Albans—Frederick Kurr was still with me—I went to St. Albans and saw William Kurr—from St. Albans I went to Miss White's, 35, Southborough Road, South Hackney—I stayed there ten or twelve days—while there I saw William Kurr one night in the Kingsland Road, and made an appointment to meet him—from Miss White's I went to Rotterdam—I had a French directory at Miss White's—that is it (
<hi rend="italic">produced</hi>)—I got it from the boxes at Edinburgh—I had previously seen it at Benson's lodgings at Beresford Road, Stoke New
<lb/>ington—on going to Rotterdam I left the book at Miss White's—Frederick Kurr and I took private lodgings at Rotterdam—we received 15
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. each from William Kurr before going to Rotterdam—we found Benson at the New Bath Hotel, in the name of George Washington Morton—Frederick Kurr took the name of Taylor and I that of Collins—we were arrested at Rotterdam on Dec 2nd—we had been there nearly a fortnight—Mr. Froggatt came to Rotterdam after we were arrested—I saw him in the house of arrest about ten days after we were arrested—he said he came over for something connected with the extradition treaty, that he was going to try and get us liberated out there—I received a telegram before he arrived—this (
<hi rend="italic">produced</hi>) is the English original (
<hi rend="italic">Telegram read</hi>: "From Mr. Froggatt, Argyle Street, London, to Collins, care of Prefect of Police, Rotterdam. Am instructed by Fuller to defend you, say nothing unless through me." (
<hi rend="italic">On a separate piece of paper pasted on the telegram was "Answer paid to Bale, care of Prefect of Police, Rotterdam."</hi>) After that Mr. Froggatt came—I told him I had given Mr. Williamson the address, 35, Southborough Road, where I and Collins lived, and that there was a book and some shirts left there—I am not certain if I told him what book it was—I told him it must be got away, and asked him to telegraph to Fuffer, meaning Kurr, to see that it
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220159"/>

<hi rend="italic">was</hi> got away—he said he would see that that was done—I used the term
<hi rend="italic">Puffer</hi> because there were other people in the room that used a little English—I told him I had said nothing to any of the police out there—he said "Do not say anything unless through me; I shall call again to
<lb/>morrow and see you"—but in the meantime he was going to see what could be done out there about our being liberated on the extradition treaty warrant—while he was talking about Madame de Goncourt he rubbed his hands together—I saw Druscovich at Rotterdam—I had never seen him before—on the boat coming from Rotterdam Druscovich came into the cabin to me with three warrants, and asked if he should read them out to me—I said I would read them myself, which I did, and handed them to a detective who was in the cabin with me—he asked me if that was not Kurr's brother in the next cabin—I told him I should say nothing, he had better ask him—Frederick Kurr was in the next cabin—afterwards he asked me "I suppose you have heard William Kurr has been taken in London?"—I said "No; who took him, and where?"—he said "I can tell you nothing, because I have not left Rotterdam since I first arrived"—he asked me if I had taken the name of Charles Jackson, and I said, "Yes; for God's sake don't say anything about it," and he said he wouldn't, and we shook hands upon it—the name of Stenning was men
<lb/>tioned—he asked me if I knew a man of the name of Stenning—I said, "yes," and he said that Stenning was taken—I asked, "What has he done?" and he said he did not know—that I think is all that passed.

<hi rend="italic">Cross-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. WILLIAMS</hi>. I was at the Northumberland Street office each day from half-past 9 or 10 to half-past 4 or 5—I was always there up to closing time—we were at Northumberland Street about a month—I never saw Meiklejohn there—I had seen him at Sandown in Kurr's company—when I have seen him or other police-officers at race meetings they have been attending to their business—I knew nothing at all of a letter supposed to be written by my father to Benson's father—I have no father—he died in 1871.

<hi rend="italic">Cross-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. STRAIGHT</hi>. I have known Kurr some years, I think we went to school together—I am now 28—it was about fifteen years ago, I suppose—I have known him intimately four or five years—I knew he was racing—I knew about Archer and Co., but not about the Paris loan—I first made Benson's acquaintance about four years ago, through William Kurr, at Benson's house, in Cawley Road, Hackney—I was sent there with a note by Kurr—I was not in the habit of driving about in the gig with Kurr while the Northumberland Street office was open—one Sunday morning as we were driving to Epsom, Kurr pointed Druscovich out to me—I do not think I ever drove down Northumberland Avenue with Kurr in his gig—I will not be positive—we had to leave Glasgow rather in a hurry—there was something like 187
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. in the bank, and we did not get that before we went away—after he was pointed out to me on the road to Epsom I never saw Druscovich until I saw him at Rotterdam—I did not know him then until I heard the other detectives men
<lb/>tion his name—on the steamer I was very much distressed and crying in the cabin—that was about 12th January, after I wrote the letter to my wife—I was then deeply depressed at my position and to what I had brought those dear to me—Druscovich came and patted me on the shoulder, saying, "Be a man."

<hi rend="italic">Cross-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. GEAIN</hi>. I cannot fix the date I first saw Palmer
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220160"/>
—it was about the end of August we went to the office in Northumberland Street, and about 15th September Palmer tapped at the window—I could not be positive I saw him at the Oxford Arms—if so, it would be about 1875 I saw him in the public-house at Kennington Cross in 1875—I have known Street about eight years—I do not know that he was clever at imita-ting handwriting—I am not—I knew a man named Krampo only by see
<lb/>ing him in Kurr's company at the Oxford Arms—I never saw him in Street's company—I do not know what he is—I am quite certain William Kurr was not present when Palmer tapped at the window—Benson myself, and Frederick Kurr were there—there were two rooms—we were all in the front room—I did not see Benson go into the back room and give "William Kurr 10
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>., and William Kurr go out—I did see William Kurr come back shortly afterwards, but I do not know what communica-tion he made to Benson.

<hi rend="italic">Cross-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. COLLINS</hi>. The superintendent of police and his assistant, and another person, were in the room when Mr. Froggatt spoke to me at Rotterdam—I left shirts and the book at Southborough Road—Fuffer was to get someone to take them away.

<hi rend="italic">Cross-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. BOWEN</hi>. My connection with Archer and Co. was running about from one place to another for Kurr—all that I knew about the Dover scheme was that they were advertising something and they would not tell me—I was fetching letters at Dover—my connection with each was simply fetching letters, running messages, and copying letters—the endorsements of Thomas Ellerton on the Royal Bank of London cheques were not imitations; they were all in my own regular handwriting—there was no such person as Thomas Ellerton.

<hi rend="italic">Thursday, November</hi> 1
<hi rend="italic">st</hi>, 1877.

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-365" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-365" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-365" type="surname" value="KURR"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-365" type="given" value="FREDERICK"/>FREDERICK KURR</persName> </hi>. I am now undergoing a sentence of 10 years' penal servitude in Newgate—I was tried and convicted in April last with Benson, William Kurr, and Bale, on a charge of forgery, with intent to defraud Madame de Groncourt—I am the younger brother of William Kurr—I have passed by other names than my own, by the names of Collings, Reynolds, Chapman, and Montgomery—I have also passed as secretary to Jacob Francis; and I likewise remember opening a banking account under the latter name—I was in Glasgow in the year 1875—I took an office there as a money lender—the business was carried on under the names of Prendergast, McFarlane, and Howard—I first became acquainted with Benson in July, 1876—I was introduced to him by William Kurr, at the Oxford Arms, and after the introduction we drove to Marquess Villa, where my brother lived—I used the name of Purbrook about April or May, 1876—that was in a sporting business, a fraud in connection with my brother—I received about 20
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>., in different sums, in connection with that business—I remember the name of Creswell of Daventry in connection with that matter—the business was carried on in Cumming Street, Pentonville—we issued advertisements in relation to that business—the money I have named was received in reply to those advertisements—I was introduced to Benson in 1876—I entered into em
<lb/>ployment with him and my brother—I was to have 2
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. per week and one-sixteenth of two-thirds of the profits—I engaged rooms at 2, Cleveland Row, for Jacob Francis, and at 11, King Street, in the name of Andrew Montgomery—I took offices at S, Northumberland Street—I gave the name of Arthur Chapman—I think they were taken the last day of July or the
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220161"/>
beginning of August—I think it was the last day of August—(
<hi rend="italic">agreement produced)—this</hi> is the agreement I signed for those offices—I saw Flintoff's wife the day before the agreement was signed—I do not think that I saw Flintoff himself—when we entered on the business I used to get the letters from Cleveland Row and King Street and give them either, or Benson—on the 31st August, the day I signed the agreement, I think, William Kurr was at 8, Northumberland Street—this business ent on until the latter end of September—it came to an-end on the 26th September—I went to Glasgow on that day with Benson and Bale—we left the office in the afternoon, and went down to Glasgow by the night mail—Benson went to the Bath Hotel—Bale and I went to White's Union Hotel—I opened an account at the bank—Benson gave me 20
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. in cash and Scotch notes, which I paid in, together with a cheque—whilst in Scotland we received telegrams from time to time—our movements were directed by those telegrams—from Glasgow Bale and I went to Edinburgh—Benson left Glasgow before us—we stayed in Edinburgh two or three days—when I was in Edinburgh at that time, I did not see any of the prisoners—we then went to Scarborough, and thence to Manchester—Bale was with me all the time—I went to St. Albans, and went back to Edinburgh in November—Bale was with me—I saw Meiklejohn when there, and my brother was with him—I heard no conversation between them—I had seen Meiklejohn once in London—I went to Burntisland with Bale, and then returned to London—we went to Miss White's, 35, Southborough Road, and from there we went to Rottercdam—Kurr gave ach of us 15
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>.—we left behind us at Southborough Road a French Directory and a letter I had written addressed to Sawyer, who was an imaginary person—it was a Directory similar to this (
<hi rend="italic">produced</hi>) that we left behind us—I had seen Palmer once before I wont to Rotterdam—it was some time ago—I saw him at the Oxford Arms—I cannot say about when—I should think it would be about a couple of years ago—it might be more than that—he was not in company with anybody at the time—he was drinking at the bar—I had not seen Druscovich or Froggatt—when I got to Rotterdam I saw Benson—that was before I was taken into custody—it was a little over a week we were there before we were taken—I saw Mr. Froggatt at Rotterdam—before I saw him I had received a telegram—I was then going by the name of Collings—this is the telegram: "Froggatt, Argyle Street, London, to Collings, care of Pre
<lb/>fect of Police, Rotterdam. Am instructed by Fuffer to defend you. Say nothing unless through me.—Dec. 12." That is the same telegram—I do not remember the data I first saw Froggatt—I merely remember the circumstance—I think he referred to the telegram he had sent, and he said that my brother had instructed him to defend me—he told me to say nothing unless through him—I asked him whether I had better use my own name or the name that I had been going by—he said I had better use the name of Collings still—I spoke to him about Bale having given the Southborough Road address where the Directory was, and I told him he had better see about getting it away—he took the address down, and said he would see to it—I spoke to him about Murray's arrest, and said it was a bad business—I also spoke about Savory, and said I was surprised that he had behaved as he had, because my brother had such confidence in him—Mr. Froggatt said my brother ought to have left that to him—I don't think I said what Savory had done, but it was
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220162"/>
understood—I asked what sort of chance we had of getting out of the mess—he said we had got a very good chance, adding "There's a little mole at work under the ground; you understand what I mean, but I cannot explain it"—I spoke to him about the money he had sent out—he had sent over 10
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. for food—on
<hi rend="italic">the</hi> passage from Rotterdam I saw Druscovich—I had seen him before at Rotterdam, but had not conversed with him—I had a conversation with him on board the boat in a small cabin—there was another officer in charge of me—Druscovich had been in several times before—he sent the officer out or the officer went out—Rose was the officer's name—I heard him speak to that officer before he went out—Druscovich said to me "I have done all I can do for you; you must look after yourselves now"—no one else was present when he said that—he told mo about my brother's arrest in London, of which I knew nothing at the time—when he said he had done all he could for us, I said yes, I did not suppose he could do anything more now—I told him it was owing to Benson that we were arrested; or that it was Benson's fault—I asked Druscovich if he had been at Rotterdam all the time—he said yes; that he had been sent away from London purposely, because they would not trust him—Rose then returned into the cabin and Drus
<lb/>covich left—I have seen Meiklejohn with my brother at a public-house in Chandos Street—Stewart is the name of the person who keeps the house—that was at the latter end of July, 1876.

<hi rend="italic">Cross-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. WILLIAMS</hi>. I saw my brother at a public-house with Meiklejohn in July, 1876—that was not the first time by a good many that I have seen my brother in a public-house talking to different persons—I used to
<hi rend="italic">go to</hi> Northumberland Street about ten o'clock in the morning, and leave with the others at four or five o'clock in the afternoon—I was there the whole time, till the 26th of September—during the whole of that time I never saw Meiklejohn there.

<hi rend="italic">Cross-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. STRAIGHT</hi>. I am 25 years of age, my brother William must be 27—I had heard of Benson as Yonge, but knew little about him—Bale I have known two or three years, and Street about the same time—I had to do with the Paris Loan—I do not know that Drus
<lb/>covich stopped it—the French Government did it, I believe—I do not know that he prevented letters being forwarded from Dover to London—the first time I saw Druscovich was at the House of Arrest, Rotterdam Mr. Superintendent Williamson was also at Rotterdam—five other officers afterwards came out to take us over—amongst them were Rose, Bright, and Morgan, as I understood—I remember leaving Glasgow twice in a hurry—the first time was in October, and the second in November—on the second occasion I left 200
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. in the Clydesdale Bank, in the name of Reynolds—that was because we had a telegram telling us not to go to the bank—I went to Brydone's the printer, at Edinburgh, several times—I tried to get the
<hi rend="italic">Racing News</hi> printed by him in the month of November thai would be for a similar fraud, and as a substitute for the
<hi rend="italic">Sport</hi>—that must have been somewhere about the 10th of November—I left Edinburgh suddenly while making arrangements for the
<hi rend="italic">Racing News</hi>—the steamer in which I came over from Rotterdam ran to Harwich—I don't think the passage was a rough one—I believe one or two of the officers were sick Rose, the officer, who went out
<hi rend="italic">of the</hi> cabin, was not unwell; at least he said so, he did not look so—I was confined in a small cabin all the time and could not leave it—I did not hear the conversation between Drusco
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220163"/>
rich and Benson—he wag in another cabin—I think I said before the magi
<lb/>ftrate that Druscovich said he had been sent away from London, because they would not trust him, or words to that effect—the steamer left Rotter
<lb/>dam about 3 p.m., and was due at Harwich at 2 a.m.—I think it was about midway that I had the conversation with Druscovich. name of Parry—a telegram came in that name, I think at Burntisland—I believe that name was used by me on that occasion, but I won't be certain of it-Harry Street accompanied me to Brydone's on one or two occasions—he and I had not been to school together; my brother had known him some time, I had not known him very long, 7 or 8 years I think—I bad no connection with any frauds before the De Goncourt fraud, and the one in 1875—Street was not in that—I don't think Street's handwriting is particularly like my brother's, M. Chabot thought it was—I believe street banked at the same bank us my brother, the Holborn branch of the Union Bunk.

<hi rend="italic">Cross-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. CLARKE</hi>. I am not quite certain about my brother having been at Northumberland Street the morning the agree
<lb/>ment was signed, but I believe he was. I am almost certain—it was signed early, about 9 o'clock I think—the business in Cumming Street lasted a very short time; I took a furnished room there and paid the rent—I don't know exactly how long I was there—I never occupied the room, only called for letters—I forget the landlady's name—I don't know that she returned a number of my letters to the Post Office, very likely she did—I was told by my brother not to go there any more—I don't know what became of the letters—I don't think I took the name of Parbrook—I think I remember the name of Cresswell among others, and some email amount, I don't recollect what.

<hi rend="italic">Cross-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. COLLETS</hi>. Mr. Froggatt sent over the 10
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. for our food in prison—we were very badly fed indeed, they gave us black bread—I telegraphed for the 10
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. to get better food—I could not
<hi rend="italic">live on</hi> the food they gave us—the governor had the money and supplied us with different articles—I don't think I said anything before the magistrate about Southboro Road and the directory—I have only had two interviews with Mr. Pollard—on the first occasion, when I made a statement, Mr. Froggatt's name was not mentioned—the Solicitor to the Treasury came to me in the prison.

<hi rend="italic">Re-examined by the</hi> Attorney General I remember Benson going to the Bridge of Allan early in November—I and Bale afterwards went to Edinburgh—Street was there—I knew at that time that Benson was at the Bridge of Allan—I went there to see him between the 3rd and 10th November, and then returned to Edinburgh—while I was in Edinburgh I saw Brydone and made arrangements about the newspaper, for a new fraud—I don't remember a telegram being sent to the Bridge of Allan in the name of Parry—this telegram (
<hi rend="italic">produced</hi>) was sent by Street; I with him when he wrote the draft of it; that was in the name of Parry; it is dated 9th Nov. to Yonge, Queen's Hotel, Bridge of Allan—before seeing Mr. Froggatt at Rotterdam I only knew him by reputation as a solicitor—I did not know him personally.

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-366" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-366" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-366" type="surname" value="MURRAY"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-366" type="given" value="EDWIN"/>EDWIN MURRAY</persName> </hi>. I am now undergoing a sentence of 18 months' imprisonment with hard labour in Coldbath-fields Prison—I was tried with William Kurr, Benson, Frederick Kurr, and Bale, in April last—
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220164"/>
they were convicted of forgery, and I was convicted of being an accessory after the fact—I have known William Kurr for some time—I was con. nected with Kurr in an agency carried on in Edinburgh, known as Philip Gardner and Co.—I had the management of the affair, which was termed a betting agency, but it really was a swindle—we had a clerk named Eustace, who was taken into custody—we left before he was taken into custody, and did not again carry on the business—I know all the defendants by sight—the police-officers I have known fora number of years; but the first time I saw Froggatt was about the 17th of Nov. last—I have known Meiklejohn by sight, I should say, for about seven years, and I have met him occasionally at race meetings as an officer, and had a glass with him—I have seen him in company with Kurr—once when Kurr was in my compauy we met Meiklejohn, and we had a glass together at the Angel, Islington—that is all—I knew a man named Walters—I remember an agency being carried on under the name of Sidney Clarke and Co., in 1874, which was another turf swindle—I took part in that swindle along with Walters—Kurr did not—in February, 1875, Walters and myself were arrested for assaulting a Mr. Berkley, but we were discharged—we were afterwards arrested, however, for fraud, the Society for Insu
<lb/>rance against Losses on the Turf—I had nothing to do with that fraud—I was taken into custody by Inspectors Clarke and Shore—Inspector Clarke was active in my arrest—Walters and myself were bailed, but we absconded and sailed to America—I stayed in that country until December of the same year, when I came back to England, and went to lire at a house at Leytonstone, under the name of Munroe—I had taken the house before I went to America—Walters remained in America—until November, 1876, I had nothing whatever to do with the De Goncourt fraud—in that month, in consequence of a telegram which I had received from him, I proceeded to the house of Wm. Kurr—I saw Kurr, and he gave me two cheques, drawn in favour of Carsons, the one for 3,000
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. signed Yonge, and the other for 500
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. signed Gifford; and at his request I went to Scotland for the purpose of trying to get those sums out of the bank at Alloa—for this service I was to receive 500
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>.—I presented the cheques, but was arrested as I was leaving the bank—subsequently I was released—the cheques were detained at the bank—on returning to London next morning I met Kurr, and he gave me some notes to go and get changed for him in the City—he handed me three 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. Clydesdale notes, and I got them changed and gave him the money—they were changed at Kulb's and also at Burt's—I received 99
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. 13
<hi rend="italic">s</hi>. 4
<hi rend="italic">d</hi>. for each 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. Clydesdale notes, and Igot themchanged and gave him the money ook to Messrs. Venables—Mr. Venables detained them until I could give a satisfactory account as to how I had obtained them—in the course of the evening I saw Kurr, and having had a conversation with him, I went to Froggatt either the next day or the day after that—I saw him at his office in Argyll Place—I had never met him before—I did not, when I called, send up any name, but I was shown into the office, and there I gave the name of H. Wells—I told Mr. Froggatt that I had called upon him to solicit his assistance to recover some notes which had been detained in the City whilst I was attempting to change them——he asked me the reason of the detention, and I told him they said that certain notes similar to those which I had presented for exchange were supposed to be in the possession of parties who had committed a fraud
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220165"/>
upon a French lady—Mr. Froggatt asked me where I had got the notes, and I said that I had received them from a gentleman in Edinburgh, and that I had not given that explanation at Venables', because I had been requested by the party who had sent me not to do so—Mr. Froggatt said "Well, I think they are easy enough to get; I will take out a summons, and you will have to appear at the Mansion House"—he said they would have to show reason why they detained them, and I should not have to give an explanation—I told him that that would not do, and that I could not possibly appear at the Mansion House; I had an objection—he asked me "Why not?" and I replied "I have my par
<lb/>ticular reasons—he said "Tell me; you know I am straight enough," so after a minute or so I told him that I had presented two cheques in Scotland two days before, that there had been a row in the papers over it, and that my description had been given—he said "Then I suppose they are the notes," and I answered "Yes, they are"—Froggatt remarked "What a singular thing that you should come to me for assistance to recover them, when I have been speaking to an officer in the City about the case this morning"—he was referring to the De Goncourt case when he made the remark "They are the notes"—Mr. Abrahams had shown me an advertisement in the
<hi rend="italic">Times</hi> in Mr. Venables' office about the notes—Froggatt next said "Why didn't you come to me? I would have changed them for you;" and I replied "I did not know you; but if you are willing to change them you can have the job now"—he said he "would write to some friends of his in Paris, and that they would be over in a day or two, and then we could have a conversation about the matter—he asked me how many notes I had—I said I thought I could produce 10,000
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. worth—he said that we could have an interview on the Monday following—this was on the Friday—I told him that I had presented those cheques in Scotland in the name of "Munroe"—he said "Who are you then?"—I said "My name is Murray"—he said "Are you Murray who "was connected with that matter in the City with Walters two years ago?" as Walters was an old client of his—I said I was the same person—he then said that being the case, they might be watching his office, if he called at venables', knowing he was acting for me, I had better not come to his office again, but meet him at the Scotch Stores in Oxford Street, for which place a standing appointment for eleven o'clock each morning was made—I showed him a copy of a letter which I said was enclosed with the notes—after the conversation with him he said "I suppose this is in your handwriting?"—I said "Yes"—he said
<hi rend="italic">"It</hi> will not do to produce this in recovering the notes"—I said "I can get it written in some other hand"—he said "It will have to be done"—I met him next day at eleven o'clock at the Scotch Stores—I went there alone—he said that he had written the previous night to his friends in Paris, and he felt confident that we could have an interview on the Monday—I saw him again next afternoon—he said "I have called at Venables', and they have refused to deliver the notes," but he added that he
<hi rend="italic">had</hi> a plan in his head—I asked him to explain it to me, and as "usual with his legal explanation, I could not possibly understand it—he asked me if I would sign two 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. Bank of England notes, which he had just drawn out of his bank, and then he could get the two 100. Clydes's notes from Venables—I endorsed the notes, "H. Wells, Dante Road," in the same way as I had endorsed the two notes I had left with
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220166"/>
Venables—another arrangement was made for Monday, and on that day at eleven o'clock, I again found my way to the Scotch Stores, when' told me that his friends were in London, and that we could have an interview—in consequence of that we went to some house—I don't know the name of the street, but it is two or three turnings on the right hand side down Oxford Street, from Argyll Street, going from Oxford Circus, somewhere near Soho—Froggatt was with me, and introduced me to two gentlemen; one of them spoke to me—Mr. said "This is the party that comes from Paris. Now, transact your own business"—I had a conversation then with these gentlemen—Eromatt remained with us the whole time—he was sitting next to me, much nearer to me than the person I was speaking to—the conversation was in English—Froggatt said "This is the gentleman who has the notes" and he told me, "This is the gentleman who will buy them. Now arrrnge your terms"—the person who spoke to me was a foreigner—the other was also a foreigner, I believe, by his accent, but he spoke English very fluently—I asked the gentleman who spoke to me if he was prepared to make an offer—I told him there were 10,000
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. worth of 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. notes; that there were no means of identification; no numbers were taken of them; and that it only required somebody of position to pay them through the bank, and there would be no more bother about getting the money for them—the party said "Well, I am not buying and selling too. I leave it to you; and let me know what you will let me have them for"—I told him that if he would hand mo over 9,500
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. he couldhave them, but I must have the money in French notes or English gold—he ridiculed the idea of changing 10,0007. for 500
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>., and said that the least that they would undertake it for would be 15 per cent., 1,500
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. out of the 10,000
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>.—I told him that as the notes did not belong to me, I was not prepared to meet his offer, but if he would allow me an hour or two I would meet the parties to whom they belonged, and then give him an answer. We were to meet again at two or three o'clock in the same afternoon at Pamphilion's Restaurant in Argyll Street—I went there at the time appointed, after having seen William Kurr—I found Froggatt there. We went back together to this house I had formerly visited, where the two gentlemen from France were—Froggatt went with me—on the first occasion we had gone to a bedroom—the second time we went into the front parlour—I found the same two men there, and had a conversa
<lb/>tion with them—Froggatt was present at the time. I made them an offer, and told them I was not prepared to aocept their terms of 15 per cent., but they could have the notes for 10 per cent., which would be 1,000
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. out of 10,000
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>.—the party who had conversed with me before said that as the notes were those Scotch notes, being such peculiar notes, he could not take them for less than 15 per cent.; if they had been English notes he would have transacted business—I told him I had some
<lb/>English notes, but I wanted to get rid of the Scotch notes first; and if he would transact business with the Scotch ones he could have the English ones afterwards—we did not come to terms—then we left the house, and I said we would adjourn to Pamphilion's and have a bottle of wine. All four of us went to Pamphilion's—on our way there Froggatt said he thought 15 per cent, was not much to cut up amongst three—I told him I thought 10 per cent., which would be 1,000
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>., was not so bad; and that, according to his ruling, if he
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220167"/>
were to introduce fifty people we should have to pay them propor
<lb/>tionately, so as to have equal shares—he said, "Well, we have heard a lot about these notes, but we have not seen anything of them. Have you got one about you?" I said "
<hi rend="italic">No."</hi> He said "'I will buy one of them of you. I will give you 90
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. for one"—I told him I could get one—we then went to Pamphilion's—I paid for some wine and left them there—I went to William Kurr, whom I found at the Mitre, Kingsgate Street, Holborn, and got a 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. Scotch note—I went back with it to Pam
<lb/>philloii's, to the private bar—I showed the note to Froggatt; he looked at it—I think we went into one of the dining-rooms or sitting-rooms—after looking at the note he said, "All right," and began' counting out some money—I did not put any name on that—he' handed me 80
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. in Bank of England notes—I told him that that was not the agreement; that 90
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. was what I offered to sell it for—he said that he required 10
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. for expenses in conducting my matter in the City. I told him I did not see that he had moved in the matter at all, but that I was willing he should retain 5
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>.—it was some thing to have in hand, I thought he wanted—he gave me another: 5
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>., which made 85
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>., and 5
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. he gave me credit for would be 90
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. We had another bottle of wine on that transaction, and then we parted—a great deal more passed with reference to his conduct to me, and I left him with disgust—I think he said that he would give me in charg, but I had one of those notes which I held over him—I saw Kurr next morn
<lb/>ing, and I think I gave him 80
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>.—some time after that I called at Froggatt's office—I had shaved my whiskers and beard off—it was Wednesday, the 22nd, I think, but I have had quite sufficient to
<hi rend="italic">drive</hi> it out of my mind since then—Froggatt did not recognise me at first, but when I spoke he started and laughed—I asked him if" he could give me any information' respecting an umbrella and something else which I had lost-when in his." company, and if he had moved in the City matter—he said that it was going on all rig-lit, I had better have taken the offer, and had better see. them again—I said it was of no use, as we refused to give 15 percent.—I asked him what he had done with the note he had from me—he said "Paid it into my bank"—I told him that that was not a very clever. tiling to do—he said, "I don't care, there were no numbers taken of them"—I went then to see William Kurr, and had a conversation with' him, in consequence of which I went to Mr. Savory on 25th November,—at 19, Ledbury Road, Bayswater—I had a conversation with him about changing the notes, and made an appointment to meet him on 27th Nov. at St. Martin's Church—I went there with a Scotch note—Savory lifted His hat, and two police-constables, Robson and Littlechild, arrested me, and took me to a place where Clarke was waiting—I suppose he thought that if I saw him I would not keep the appointment—he charged me with defrauding a lady—I was taken to Marlborough Street and remanded to the following Thursday—Froggatt then appeared for m—he visited me on the Tuesday in the House of Detention—I had sent for him on the Monday—he said, "A nice mess you have got yourself into, trusting to a fellow like Savory, you had better by half have taken our 15 per cent., will you let me have them now? I will get you the money for them"—I told him it was ridiculous to make such a proposition, the first thing I wanted was to get out of my trouble, and we could talk about other business afterwards—he told me he should require
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220168"/>
some money; I said I would see about that, I understood from Stenning that 5
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. was given to him before he appeared for me at the police-court—Froggatt said he had received the money, which made 11
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. altogether—he appeared for me but did not get me out of my trouble, and from time to time I was remanded—I was identified as the man who had absconded from bail—I received 500
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. from Kurr which I had agreed for—I was kept in the House of Detention until I was committed for trial—excepting what I have told you, Froggatt had done nothing for which he could fairly charge—he called in the City once that was all he ever did for me—when I gave him the Clydesdale note it was not agreed that that 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. note should be given to him for his costs and expenses.

<hi rend="italic">Cross-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. WILLIAMS</hi>. I was charged in the other Court as a principal in this forgery, and convicted as an accessory after the fact—I knew nothing about the De Goncourt fraud—I knew this money had been obtained by fraud, but I thought it was the usual way he used to get money—I was ignorant of what the fraud was, though I believed the money came from the French lady, but did not know it was obtained by forgery—you defended me, and I had great trouble in making you believe that I had no idea of the kind—I know that my character is sufficient to convict me—I do not wish anybody to suppose I am trying to justify my acts, but I had no idea of the use of these cheques—I re
<lb/>member seeing Meiklejohn in 1871, at the Angel, Islington, when I was in company with Kurr—he came round the corner and spoke to us—he thought I was a legitimate bookmaker in Edinburgh, and said he would introduce a person named Davis, who would be useful to me—I don't think he would have proposed that if he had not thought us legitimate bookmakers; by legitimate bookmakers I mean persons who, to evade the Betting Act, transacting their business in Scotland in a legal way—Davis had left his situation in Edinburgh, and he thought we could give him a situation in our office.

<hi rend="italic">Cross-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. STRAIGHT</hi>. I went at Kurr's instigation to see Flintoff and gave him a sovereign—that was within a day or two of 24th November—I am sure it was after I had been to Scotland—I never saw the potman at the Northumberland Arms till he appeared in the witness box at the police-court—I first went to Scotland on the night of 13th November.

<hi rend="italic">Cross-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. COLLINS</hi>. Froggatt knew that these notes were obtained by fraud from the beginning—he was a perfect stranger to me when I first went to his office, he said that Walters was an old client of his, he had had some legal transactions with him—I showed him a letter when I went there; that was to deceive him at that time, most decidedly—our conversation in his office lasted an hour and a half or two hours—when I said that I would have it copied in another writing he said that it would have to be done, that it would not do to present it in that handwriting—what I said before the magistrate was the truth, but every
<lb/>thing may not have occurred to my mind—when I was to meet the gentleman from France I did not look up at the street I was going to or else I should know it now—I think I could find it again—it was about 11.15—I went a second time in the afternoon, and again I did not look I have lived in London many years, but I have a very bad memory for streets—you can easily find the street, it is about three turnings down the
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220169"/>
right-hand side—it does seem to me that I ought to have looted at the name—I left Froggatt in disgust after the second interview, not making any appointment—with him—I saw him again on, I think, the Wednesday, the day but one after—I was taken in custody on the 27th—my memory is very good for dates when such a thins as that occurs—I have, unfortu
<lb/>nately, on two or three occasion made the acquaintance of the police—I do not think Froggatt's mind would compass my case—I do not think mv case puzzled your learned friend Mr. Williams, but I think he could not believe that I was not so guilty as I appeared to be—Froggatt did not seem to trouble himself about the case—I think he was busying himself about other matters, he could get nothing out of it—he appeared—for me before the magistrate, and instructed Mr. Williams and Mr. Grain to appear in my behalf at the police-court time after time—I was remanded 15 times, but a great number of the remands—were merely formal, to await the arrival of the other men from Holland—Froggatt appeared for me about six times—he knew something of the case before I was apprehended, or I should not have sent for him—I gave him several written instructions, and handed them to him in the House of Detention—I very likely told him, as counsel's instructions, that the note for which I was arrested was one of 500
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. which I had received in payment of a bet—I gave him him a lot of instructions for him to use his professional ability to see which would get me out of the difficulty best—they were all false—if I had given him truthful instructions I might as well have pleaded guilty—I told him that Mr. Carson, of Liverpool, had bet me 500 to 5 on Footstep; it is a bit of amusement to write instructions while you are waiting—I said "The horse won, and on my asking him to pay me he said he would not until he received his money "—that was a tale I wrote as it might get me out of trouble—it was all—false—I wrote a letter to the Waverley Hotel to a fictitious person, Mr. Sampson—I instructed him also that on returning to London and seeing Carson he paid me the money in 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. Clydesdale bank-notes, and that he had asked me to address him in future as Mr. C. Sampson, Waverley Hotel, Edinburgh—that was to account for the letter I had sent—I thought the letter would be found there, and nobody would call for it—it required explanation why I wrote such a letter there—finding a difficulty I wrote to that address and received no reply—I used the name of Wells in changing the notes because I knew I had done something wrong in changing the cheque—I said "Neither did any of the people where the offices were held know me"—part of the instructions I gave him were true and part false; it was a conglomeration, I thought if I made up something false with the true it would be best, because none of the people at the different lodgings knew me—I wrote "I contradict Savory's statement entirely," and "It is all imagination about paying part proceeds of the said swindle;" but I knew different—those instructions are in my writing—in 1871 I had offices in Edinburgh—I have been living rather dishonestly for the last seven years, but not the whole time—I have been racing and paying—I have been connected with five or six racing swindles, not mixed up with Kurr in any business transactions, but in fraudulent transactions I was mixed up with him from 1867 to 1872—after absconding from my bail in the Walters and Murray fraud I went to America with Walters and started as a land surveyor—I surveyed land for people who wished to borrow money, I and Walters—that was a
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220170"/>
swindle—it was done in this way: Walters was advertised as an English gentleman wishing to lend money on landed property; when people applied to him for a loan he would refer them to his surveyor, that
<hi rend="italic">nt me</hi>; I surveyed the land, and as a great number of them were trying to cheat the English gentleman of his superfluous capital I used my discre
<lb/>tion and proposed in certain cases that they should victimise the English gentleman by giving me a consideration, for which I would make a favourable report of plots of land, and so deceive "Walters; Wallers never lent any money; I used to receive my payment from the people who wished to borrow, and when they applied to him he used to say that the report from the surveyor was satisfactory, but that as collateral security is was necessary that they should insure their lives; I was the insurauce agent also—that scheme did not last long, but I should think we made about 400 dollars a day—the Americans did not soon find out the decep
<lb/>tion—they have not found it out yet that I know of—I was arrested on a charge of smuggling—we underwent some amount of whitewashing, I suppose, for we were acquitted by a jury, and discharged without a stain upon our characters—we did not carry it on because I thought I had something better on hand—I started a pocket-book company, which was another swindle—we advertised that we had bought a great number of pocket-books very cheap, and were willing to let the American public have the benefit of the barga n. and that to those who would pay so much for a pocket-book we would give half the profits, to be distributed to the holders of coupons—we did nor. make anything out of that, but the Post Office did, for they stopped the letters, it being a lottery—I remained in America about a month after that, during which time I was driving about and enjoying myself—I then came back to England, and have been racing; ever since—that is my life for 1870.

<hi rend="italic">Re-examined by the</hi> Atiorney-General. Meiklejohn first mentioned Davis to Kurr and me as far back as Christmas, 1871—that was not the first time I had seen Meiklejohn, we had a conversation about racehorses before that—when I was in the House of Detention I used to hand the in
<lb/>structions to Froggatt myself—I saw him frequently and gave him a great number of instructions, and I always headed them "Counsel's instruc
<lb/>tions"—I saw him frequently and gave him a great many written instruc
<lb/>tions—you buy paper in the House of Detention, and you have it given to you in Newgate—these are the instructions which I gave; but I do not think all my instructions are hero—I do not see one which relates to six 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. notes—they were always headed in the manner I have already stated—I must have given him more, because I used to employ my mind with it—these account for six notes, but had I wished to deceive Mr. Froggatt I should have had to account fur seven, because six were traced to me, and one was found on me I may say, what I have forgotten to state before, that on one occasion of Froggatt visiting me at the House of Detention, I spoke to him as to the impropriety of his sending Stenning to me to try and induce me to let him have the notes—I told Froggatt how very wrong it was of him to mention the matter of those notes to a person who was not interested at all in the matter, and who knew nothing at all about it, and said it was wrong to send a person to try and induce me to let him have the notes—he replied that he had never asked Slenning to come to me to ask me to part with the notes, but that Stenning told him that had better have them and get them
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220171"/>
changed, but I felt confident that he had, because Stenning knew nothing about the matter.

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-367" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-367" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-367" type="surname" value="STENNING"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-367" type="given" value="HENRY"/>HENRY STENNING</persName> </hi>. I was tried and sentenced in February last on a charge of obstructing a constable when he was arresting Kurr, and am now undergoing twelve months' imprisonment—I have known Kurr about ten years—I was not in any way mixed up—with the fraud of which Kurr was convicted—I was never charged with any criminal offence before—I remember Murray being arrested, but cannot recollect the date—I saw Kurr a day afterwards—I have known. Mr. Froggatt since the 28th November last, when I took a letter to his office which I had written at Kurr's dictation, and a 5
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. Bank of England note—I said "
<hi rend="italic">Re Murray</hi>" gave him the 5
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. note, and asked him his line of defence—he said he did not think that Savory would put in an appearance against Murray and face his, Froggatt's, cross-examination; that he could prove that Savory was a
<hi rend="italic">mounter</hi> and a fradulent bankrupt—I believe a
<hi rend="italic">mounter</hi> means a person who will get into the witness-box for a consideration and give evidence—he then said "How about the paper?"—I said "I do not exactly understand what you mean"—he said "The paper; these notes"—I said that I knew nothing at all about them—I think that was all that passed at that interview—I saw Mr. Froggatt again about two days afterwards, and handed him a letter written by me at Kurr's dicta
<lb/>tion, like the former one—he said "Now how about these Clydesdales?"—I said I wanted Murray's line of defence—he then said that Murray had informed him that the money, having been obtained in Scotland, would not come within the jurisdiction of Great Marlborough Street Police Court; and just before I was leaving he said "If you have any of those notes I will hand you hard cash for them within twenty-four hours"—I assured him that I had not got any—I think I saw Murray three or four times a week in the House of Detention—I went with Kurr to St. Albans on several occasions—when I returned from there on 4th December I met Froggatt about twenty minutes after nine o'clock, at the Scotch Stores; in Oxford Street—I don't think I had made an appointment—he said "I am late, I believe"—I said "I have come a long way from the country"—he said "I have heard bad news from farther than you have come"—he then said "Cosnove and the other two are arrested"—I reported that to Kurr, and I believe I sent three telegrams—at that time I did not know who Cosnove was—I sent this telegram; it is in my writing—I think I got the form from the corner of Southampton Street—I received the wording on a piece of paper from Kurr—I afterwards handed the paper back to Kurr. (
<hi rend="italic">This was from Williamson, Superintendent of Police, Scotland Yard, London, to the Chief of the Police, Rotterdam. '"</hi> Find Morton and the two men you have in custody are not those we want. Officer will not be sent over. Liberate them. Letter follows."
<hi rend="italic">Signature of sender</hi>, "Frederick Carter, Scotland Yard.") I received from Kurr the draft from which I wrote that telegram in the parlour at the Mitre Tavern, Engsgute Street, Holborn—I was waiting there for Kurr—I don't think I saw Mr. Froggatt there that day—I saw him there frequently, when Kurr was present—I think it was more than a week after I had sent that telegram that Mr. Froggatt came into the parlour at the Mitre, when I was waiting for Kurr, and said "Where is Kurr?"—I said "lam expecting him every minute"—after waiting some little time, he said "I must go"—I asked him to sit down and have another liquor and a cigar
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220172"/>
—he did so, and said "A certain party says that Kurr must see Howard, I and all will be well"—Froggatt then said "Williamson is making a great fuss about the telegram you sent"—I said "I understood you sent it"—Froggatt answered "No, you sent it"—I then said "You seem to know all about it"—Froggatt replied "I should do, Kurr and I concocted it"—I think he used the word "concocted," or "drew it," one or the other—I believe Kurr entered the Mitre parlour about that time—I don't think I saw Froggatt any more that day—I left Kurr and Froggatt in the parlour—I thiuk froggatt always referred to Kurr as Kurr or
<hi rend="italic">Bill</hi>—shortly after 4th December, as Mr. Froggatt, Kurr, and I, were leaving Kurr's house, 29, Marquess Eoad, Canonbury, Froggatt, addressing me, said "Here comes old
<hi rend="italic">Ned</hi> Funnell"—after hearing a conversation with Froggatt and Kurr, Froggatt said "Follow him and see where he goes to"—I followed Funnell for about two hours, and reported this to Frog
<lb/>gatt on the same day, when I saw him by arrangement at the Mitre—I told him I had left Mr. Funnell half way down the New North Eoad, Isling
<lb/>ton—I remember Kurr being arrested, it was about seven o'clock, I think—I saw Froggatt about an hour and a half afterwards at Tulse Hill, his private house, I believe—I told him of Kurr's arrest—on leaving Tulse Hill Mr. Froggatt and I went in a cab together as far as White
<lb/>hall; I remained about a quarter of an hour in the cab, while he went to scotland Yard—we afterwards went to the police station at Islington, where Kurr was in custody—I remained in the cab, while Froggatt went in to see Kurr—he told me that he had seen Kurr, and had left him as comfortable as he could under the circumstances—I saw Mr. Froggatt the following morning at his office, we then went into Great Marlborough Street Police Court station yard; Froggatt was going to see Kurr, and I went in with him—we walked through Marlborough Mews, through the station, into the station yard—I had been there before—the officer asked Mr. Froggatt whether I was a solicitor; he said "No"—he said "I cannot admit him to see Kurr"—Mr. Froggatt went up some steps, I believe to Kurr'e cell, came down again, and told me he was going to instruct Mr. George Lewis to defend Kurr—he gave me a piece of paper with some names written on it in pencil—I think I destroyed it after I made use of it, but could not swear positively whether I gave it back to Froggatt or not—one of the names was "Flintoff, 8, Northumberland Street, Strand;" the other, "Housekeeper, No. 4, Agar Chambers"—I think Mr. Froggatt told me that Kurr desired me to go to those addresses and to ask Mr. Flintoff if he had identified the right man, and to go to Agar Street and ask tie housekeeper, if she was called on to identify Kurr, to identify persons that had taken offices there, if she was able to do so; and also to see the potman at the Northumberland Arms, to give him something, and to ask him, if he was called upon, not to give evidence against Kurr—I went to those addresses, and when I next saw Mr. Froggatt I told him I had been to see Mr. Flintoff, the potman, and the housekeeper—I said I had eeen Mr. Flintoff, and I thought I had persuaded him not to give any further evidence than he was absolutely obliged to; and that I had seen the potman, and he had agreed not to identify Kurr or give evidence; also, that the housekeeper said that she was not able to identify those persons that I had inquired about; that I had given the potboy half a sovereign, and that I would return the two sovereigns that I had borrowed of Sfr
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220173"/>
Froggatt in the afternoon, or he could place it in the bill—that is all that passed at. that time—it was 1st January this year, the day after Kurr's arrest—I saw Mr. Frogiratt about an hour afterwards, on the same day, si he was coming towards Great Marlborough. Street Police Court—Kurr. was to be brought up that day to undergo his examination—I said "There stands old Flintoff"—Mr. Froggatt said "Jump into a cab and follow that man who has just jumped into a cab, and see where he goes to."—. I did so—Froggatt said "Come back into the court and let me know where you have left him"—I did so—I know now that that man was Mr. Abraham's son—Mr. Abrahams was at that time conducting the case for the prosecution against Kurr—when I said to Froggatt "There is old Flintoff," Flintoff was standing on the steps leading into the court—I was about 10 yards off—I followed the gentleman in the cab, first to Mr. Keinhardt's, in Coventry Street, then back again to Marlborough Street Police Court—I then went into court, and during the progress of the case I was identified as the person who had attempted to obstruct the officer, and was taken in custody—in the interval between leaving Flintoff and. seeing Froggatt I drew this plan (
<hi rend="italic">produced</hi>). of the cell—this piece of paper was part of the evidence given against me on my trial—I remember being examined as a witness against the prisoners before Sir. James Ingham, at Bow Street, last September, and being cross examine I by Mr. Froggatt, and saying that I believed he was not present when I drew the plan—I am sure he was not—I also said that if either of his clerks attempted to look at me, I held my hat in such a manner that he could not see it—when I was standing in the body of the court, being hand
<lb/>cuffed, Froggatt said to me "Shall I
<hi rend="italic">square</hi> the
<hi rend="italic">screw</hi> for you?"—the
<hi rend="italic">screw</hi> is a term applied to the officers, of the House of Correction, and I suppose other prisons as well—they are turnkeys, so I suppose they are all "screws"—I said You had better not"—he said "Then I shall send your wife two
<hi rend="italic">quid for</hi> what you have said to-day"—when the deposi
<lb/>tions were being read over I was asked what Froggatt had said—I then stated to the court what I have now stated to you—upon that Mr. Frog
<lb/>gatt made a statement—I think he said that that day he had lost his mother, mi that his mind was in such a state that he really did not understand hat he had said; he also said, I believe, "On the occasion I made that remark I believe I also attacked Mr. Pollard outside the Court."

<hi rend="italic">Cross-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. COLLINS</hi>. I am a professional billiard-player, and have also commissions on the turf—I follow turf pursuits—Kurr is a
<hi rend="italic">very</hi> intimate friend of mine—I used to see him frequently, not at his house, but at race meetings, which I attend whenever I have an opportunity—I go all over England, Scotland, and even Ireland, and bet sometimes heavily; I sometimes win, and sometimes lose—I do not know Benson—I know Street very well, and have known Bale seven or eight years—I have not known Frederick Kurr many years—I first saw Mr. Froggatt on the 28th or 29th November—I went to him as a practising solicitor; Kurr sent me—I did not know that Kurr was mixed up with the De Goncourt frauds till he told me in the evening of that day—it was on the second occasion of my seeing Mr. Froggatt that he said "If you have any of these notes I will hand you hard cash for them within 24 hours"—I think I said that at the police court, I do not know—I made three statements to the Treasury, the first on 28th July, the second on 30th August, and the third I made to Mr. Pollard in a room that I was confined in in this building
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220174"/>
during the time the trials were going on—I said before the magistrate "In my first statement I did not say a word about the conversation I had with Mr. Froggatt about the telegram"—that was true—I also said "I think Mr. Froggatt said I was to see the poiboy at the Northumberland Anna"—I did not say before the magistrate "To see the potboy at the Northum berland Arms and give him something"—I was examined before the magistrate in August or September—as near as I can recollect I told Mr. Froggatt I had asked Fliutoff if he had identified the right man, and that Flintoff said there could be no question about it; that he had 'been called upon by Messrs. Abrahams and Boffey to give evidence, but that he did not like to be mixed up in a criminal prosecution; that he had not the slightest idea that the solicitors at Kotterdam had anything to do with it, and that he should not say more against Kurr than he possibly could—I reported what I have repeated at Bow Street Police Court.

<hi rend="italic">Re-examined.</hi> I have known Kurr 10 years—I met him at race-meetings—I had nothing at all to do with, any of the frauds with which he was mixed up.

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-368" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-368" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-368" type="surname" value="STATTNTON"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-368" type="given" value="JOHN THOMAS"/>JOHN THOMAS STATTNTON</persName> </hi>. I am at present employed at the Continental Bank, 79, Lombard Street—in 1874 I was manager for Messrs. Hartland and Co., foreign bankers—this is the bullion book of that bank for 1874—this entry is in my own writing—I find that I purchased, on 1st August, 1874, 7,500 francs in French, bank notes for 296
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. 8
<hi rend="italic">s</hi>. 10
<hi rend="italic">d</hi>., by cheque, it would appear—here is an entry in my cash-book on the same date, "Credit the Union Bank with 296
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. 8
<hi rend="italic">s</hi>. 10
<hi rend="italic">d</hi>.," which shows that a cheque for that amount must have been given to somebody—the name is E. L. Archer, but it does not necessarily show that the cheque was given to Archer—if anybody brings French notes, unless they ask for cash, I give them a cheque.

<hi rend="italic">Cross-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. WILLIAMS</hi>. It was given to some person who gave the name of Archer, but who it was I don't know.

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-369" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-369" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-369" type="surname" value="BURT"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-369" type="given" value="FREDERICK"/>FREDERICK BURT</persName> </hi>. I am a member of the firm of Burt and Co., of Cornhill, and produce my book—on 17th Oct., 1874, I changed some foreign money, and gave a cheque for 992
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. 1
<hi rend="italic">s</hi>. 4
<hi rend="italic">d</hi>., in favour of Archer, not Archer and Co.—I saw the cheque at the police-court and showed it to Mr. Abrahams—I did not draw it myself—it was endorsed "L. Archer 1 by the bank clerk, and was on the London and Westminster Bank—this is a copy of it.

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-370" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-370" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-370" type="surname" value="LLOYD"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-370" type="given" value="CHARLES"/>CHARLES LLOYD</persName> </hi>. I am cashier at the London and Westminster Bant, head office—Burt and Co. had an account there, and on Saturday, Oct. 17th, 1874, I cashed a cheque of theirs for 992
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. 1
<hi rend="italic">s</hi>. 4
<hi rend="italic">d</hi>. with nine 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. notes, Nos. 37122 to 37130 inclusive, dated 5th January, 1874, one 50
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. note, 0838, 6th August, 1874, and two 20
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. notes.

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-371" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-371" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-371" type="surname" value="JAMES"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-371" type="given" value="JOSIAH"/>JOSIAH JAMES</persName> </hi>. I am manager of the London and County Bank, Hackney branch—Henry George Yonge kept an account there in 1876; that is the convict Benson—the entries in this book (
<hi rend="italic">produced</hi>) were made by Charles Brown, under my supervision, but I did not see the notes at the time—on 19th October, 1874, Yonge paid in two 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. notes, Nos. 37124 and 37128, February 5, 1876.

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-372" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-372" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-372" type="surname" value="CARPENTER"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-372" type="given" value="JOSEPH"/>JOSEPH CARPENTER</persName> </hi>. I am a cashier at the London and County Bank, Islington branch—on 19th October, 1874, a man named Wm. Harrisson kept an account there; he is the convict William Kurr, and on that day
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220175"/>
he paid in 950
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. in Bank of England notes—this entry is my writing—the notes would be passed to Percv Snow, the waste-book-keeper, to enter.

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-373" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-373" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-373" type="surname" value="SNOW"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-373" type="given" value="PERCY"/>PERCY SNOW</persName> </hi>. I am waste-book-keeper at the Islington branch of the London and County Bank—on 19th April, 1874, a number of notes were paid in to William Harrisson's account, and among them two 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. Bank of England notes, dated 37122 and 37123, Feb. 5, 1874.

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-374" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-374" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-374" type="surname" value="TYLER"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-374" type="given" value="JOHN"/>JOHN TYLER</persName> </hi>. I am cashier of the Union Bank—on 1st August, 1874, I paid over the counter a cheque note, one 50
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. two 20
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. notes, and 6
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. 8
<hi rend="italic">s</hi>. 10
<hi rend="italic">d</hi>.—the 200
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. note was No. 67874, Sept. 8., the 50
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. 27794, Feb. 6, and the twenties, 41880 and 41881, March 7.

<hi rend="italic">Cross-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. WILLIAMS</hi>. There is no evidence as to whom the cheque was made payable.

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-375" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-375" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-375" type="surname" value="MONTEITH"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-375" type="given" value="ALEXANDER"/>ALEXANDER MONTEITH</persName> </hi>. I was cashier of the Stirling branch of the Clydesdale Bank in August, 1874—this slip is in my writing, but it is signed by Meiklejohn. (
<hi rend="italic">Read</hi>: August 21, 1874. Clydesdale Banking Company. Wanted, draft on London for 200
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>., payable to J. Meiklejohn, Esq., by J. Meiklejohn.")—I remitted the notes I received to Barnett, Hoare, and Co., London.

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-376" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-376" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-376" type="surname" value="HERBERT"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-376" type="given" value="RICHAED"/>RICHAED HERBERT</persName> </hi>. Fam a clerk to Barnett, Hoare, and Co.—I pro
<lb/>duce the particulars in my own writing of some notes of the Clydesdale Bank, Stirling—I received on 22nd August, 1874, ten fives and five tens, one 20
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>., No. 41880, and a 50
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. note, No. 27594—I have not the dates.

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-377" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-377" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-377" type="surname" value="ASTON"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-377" type="given" value="FREDERICK TUCKER"/>FREDERICK TUCKER ASTON</persName> </hi>. I am a solicitor, of 58, Lombard Street—in October and November, 1874. I was a member of the firm of Vander-vorst, Low, Hardy, and Aston—Mr. Edward William Hammond, the owner of 202, South Lambeth Road, was one of our clients, and he engaged us to sell that house—T received this letter of 15th October, 1874—I cannot swear that it is Meiklejohn's writing, although I afterwards saw him sign the deed—on 20th October the house was sold at the Auction—Mart, and purchased by Meiklejohn for 475
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>., who paid 47
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. deposit, and signed this contract (
<hi rend="italic">produced</hi>)—on 2nd November Meiklejohn came to my office and paid the 428
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. balance, and 9
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. his proportion of the insurance, in notes and money; we do not take cheques—my short-hand writer entered the transaction in my diary; it is initialled as received from him, and the cash is entered in the journal—Mr. Seldon is dead—here is id entry in my journal, "Hammond, 15
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. 9
<hi rend="italic">s</hi>. 5
<hi rend="italic">d</hi>."—I have an entry here "Same premises, balance of purchase money, 428
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. 4
<hi rend="italic">s</hi>. 9
<hi rend="italic">d</hi>., signed L. S."—the deceased clerk received the money; F. A. means'myself, and with other moneys recpived from him on the same day it comes to 519
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. 8
<hi rend="italic">s</hi>.
<hi rend="italic">Id.</hi>—our firm kept an account at Smith Payne's, and in my book in which he entered everything here is an entry "L. H. and A., 519
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. 8
<hi rend="italic">s</hi>. 2
<hi rend="italic">d</hi>." initialled "G. C. G." showing that he paid it in, and in the banker's book they are credited with the amount—Meiklejohn executed the assignment in the presence of his solicitor, who attested it.

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-378" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-378" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-378" type="surname" value="GOLDIKG"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-378" type="given" value="JOSEPH CTTTHBERT"/>JOSEPH CTTTHBERT GOLDIKG</persName> </hi>. I was cashier to Smith, Payne, and
<hi rend="italic">Co.</hi>—in November, 1874, Messrs. Low, Hardy, and Aston kept an account there—on 2nd November, 1874, 519
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. 8
<hi rend="italic">s</hi>. 2
<hi rend="italic">d</hi>. was paid in totheir account in notes and cheques—Mr. Robinson is the waste-book-keeper, he would enter the particulars of the notes.

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-379" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-379" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-379" type="surname" value="ROBINSON"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-379" type="given" value="FREDERICK"/>FREDERICK ROBINSON</persName> </hi>. I was waste-book-keeper at Smith, Payne, and Co.'s in November, 1874—I have here a note of 480/. being paid in,
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220176"/>
which formed part of a sum of 519
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. 8
<hi rend="italic">s</hi>. 2
<hi rend="italic">d</hi>.—there were two 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. rotes Nos. 317129 and 317130—as a matter of fact there are no bank notes with six figures, there must be some mistake, there is a figure too mud.—it is our practice to pay notes into the Bank of England the day after they are received—there are other numbers in that credit.

<hi rend="italic">Friday, November 2nd.</hi> 

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-380" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-380" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-380" type="surname" value="WILLIAMS"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-380" type="given" value="CHARLES JOHN"/>CHARLES JOHN WILLIAMS</persName> </hi>. I am a clerk in the Bank of England—I produce two notes, 37129 and 37130, dated 5th February, 1874—they came into the Bank on 3rd September, 1874, through Messrs. Smith Payne, and Co.—no notes have six numbers, they are all five—when tie date begins there is a "0" before the number, that makes the five.

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-381" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-381" type="gender" value="female"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-381" type="surname" value="AVIS"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-381" type="given" value="ANN"/>ANN AVIS</persName> </hi>. I am a widow, residing at 15, Clifton Road, Clapton—I have known Benson since July, 1873—it must have been four years ago last July—I was asked by his aunt and uncle if I would take him as a lodger—I was then living at Helena Road, Dalston—at that time he was quite unable to help himself, and had to be carried up and down stairs—I was married, and my husband was then alive—Benson lodged with us as near as I can remember eighteen months—I knew Kurt by the name of Medway, coining to call on Benson—Benson told me he came there through an advertisement—when we left Helena Road I went to Paradise Terrace—Benson went with me there—he also went with us to Caw ley Road—he did not take the honse himself at first, but he took it off our hands—it was a more expensive house than we could well afford—Benson had a servant named Picard about July or the beginning of August, 1874—my husband died in December, 1874—on 15th January, 1875, Benson went to Shanldin, in the Isle of Wight—his servant and I went to
<hi rend="italic">get the</hi> place ready for him—he was then better, but not able to walk—I stayed as his housekeeper at Rose Bank till 15th July, 1875, and saw Clarke twice: I saw him going out, he was taking a stick or umbrella out of the stand, and I saw him leaving the house—I had not seen him come in—I can't say how long it was between the two visits, it may have been a week or two weeks—Benson asked me to copy some letters for him—I did so—I kept some of the drafts, and some I destroyed—the last four I wrote I kept
<hi rend="italic">the</hi> drafts of—the first drafts I copied I burnt, perhaps four or five of them—Benson wrote them—these are the ones I kept—I posted some of them myself, to "George Clarke, Esq., 20, Great College Street, Westminster"—Benson gave me the address—these are dated June 15th, 17th, 20th, and 24th—I have the paper here—I have seen a Mr. Andrews at Rose Bank frequently—I saw Medway once on the lawn, and I think he had been there before, but I was in London at the time—Benson was not aware in the slightest degree that I kept the drafts.

<hi rend="italic">Cross-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. CLAEKE</hi>. I did not know when Benson first came to me from whence he came—I was told that he was coining from a Sanatorium—he came in the name of Tonge—I knew him by the name of Benson after some months—I understood it was an assumed name—I never knew him by any other name but those two, never by the name of Montague or Montago—it was before I went to Shanklinthatlknpwhim by the name of Benson—when I went to Shanklin I knew that Youge was an assumed name—I first saw Kurr, who I knew as Medway, at Paradise Terrace, Hackney—I cannot tell the date; we went there at Michaelmas, I think, as he came to me in July—I thought it was in the
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220177"/>
autumn, but it must have been in the spring of 1874 that Medway came—when I was at Shanklin I heard of him by the name of Gifltord—I cannot say when I first heard the name of Kurr—at Shanklin. he was always called Giflord or Medway—I knew him first by the name of Medwav, and afterwards I heard he was going by the name of Gifford while I was at Shanklin—I may have heard the name of Kurr at Shanklin—I cannot recollect—I saw him at Rose Bank, I think, the week before I left, which would make it 1st or 2nd July—I don't know that I heard him mentioned at all—I never spoke to him—I saw him sitting on the lawn—Benson, when at the Isle of Wight, lad a good deal of correspondence; I cannot tell what it all was—I don't how what were sent out—his man servant used to post them, or himself—I did not as a rule—I may have done so occasionally if I was going out—I did not go out on purpose to do so—I never copied any other letters for him—he never employed me in any other writing work—I took the exact copies just as these are—the first I wrote was on a Sunday, I think—that was 19th April—I destroyed the drafts of the letters I first wrote as I copied them—Benson always examined the copies I wrote before they were sent out—I handed them'to him with the drafts to examine—he always handed them back to me to put in the envelopes—when Clarke came down I did not know that he was Inspector Clarke, of Scot
<lb/>land Yard, at first—nobody assisted Benson in his correspondence at the Isle of Wight that I know of—he generally did his correspondence in the dining-room when I was there—when I left Rose Bank these four were the only copies of letters that I took with me—I then went to live at Cawley Road, Victoria Park, where my son had taken a house; not Mr. Hall, my son-in-law—I do not live with my son now—my husband was in the Custom House—we went to Leaconfield Road in March, 1876—that was my son's house—I am now living at 15, Clifton Road, Clapton Park—Benson put a boy of mine to school at Mr. Clarke's, Grove House School, Hackney—my husband had signed a paper that he should have the bringing of him up, that he should educate the boy, and, of course, at my husband's death, it was known—lie took a liking to the boy and said he should do so—my son-in-law has lived at Green Lanes, Stoke Newington, ever since he was married—he came to see Benson when he first came to me—he came to Helena Road and Paradise Terrace, perhaps twice a week—I never heard that he assisted Benson in his correspondence—lie would spend perhaps an hour or so with him—he never came to Shanklin to see Benson or me—I have another son-in-law, Mr. New
<lb/>man; he—was a lodger of mine when Benson first came to me, but he left—I think he kept up the acquaintance pretty nearly to the time I left Benson in July, 1875—he came several times to Shanklin—I do not re
<lb/>member his staying in the house; I cannot be sure—I have no idea of the last day he was at Shanklin, or how many times he was there, or the first or last time—I had not in my possession, at any time after I left Shankiln, any other, papers belonging to Benson—the next time I saw Benson after I left Shanklin was at Bentinck Street somewhere about Christmas I fancy—the first time I saw him, Mr. Clark, the schoolmaster, and Mrs. Clarke were present—I went several times to see Benson in Newgate—I used to take his things and get them washed for him—once did not go for a month—the letters and address remained in my possession until 25th May this year, when I gave them to Mr. Pollard at
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220178"/>
the Treasury, who sent for me—I did not take them with me when I first "went there; they said it was a serious accusation, and I said that I could produce the letters—I have no pension from the Custom House—I have a little from a leasehold house—I have not had anything for twelve months from Benson, at all events up to the time he was taken into custody—he continued up to that time to take care of my son—I did not know that Benson was in existence until lie came to me—I knew his aunt and uncle, my daughter lived with them as nurse.

<hi rend="italic">Re-examined.</hi> Benson allowed me nothing as his housekeeper. I thought his keeping my son at school was quite sufficient.

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-382" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-382" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-382" type="surname" value="PICARD"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-382" type="given" value="WILLIAM"/>WILLIAM PICARD</persName> </hi>. I am a valet, and am at present living at Hunger-ford House, Shanklin, Isle of Wight—in June, 1874, I entered the seivice of George Henry Yonge—he was then living at 5, Paradise Terrace, with a Mrs. Avis—I remember the death of Mr. Avig, about three weeks after which Yonge went to live at Rose Bank, Shanklin—I now know that he is the same man as Benson, who was tried at this court for the De Goncourt frauds—I know Inspector Clarke by sight, and have seen him with Yonge at Rose Bank—he first came in April, 1875—he sent in his card—he returned to see Yonge the following morning, and stayed to breakfast—he visited him once since then—I went with Yonge to London; we stayed at the "Westminster Palace and Langh am Hotels—I saw Clarke withhimin London at both of those hotels—I have carried a letter or note from Yonge to Clarke's house, 20, Great College Street—Clarke visited Yonge in the evening at Westminster Palace Hotel more than once; rather late on one occasion, just after we came back from Switzerland, when William Kurr was with him—I remember driving in a cab with Yonge to Clarke's house; it was either the last day of August or 1st September—I knocked at the door and Clarke came out—I thought Benson was going by the 2.10 train to Shanklin, and he called there on the way—I do not remember whether we went by that train or not—when Clarke came out of his house he stood talking to Benson about twenty minutes, I should say, and then got into the cab—I got on the box—we left Clarke at White
<lb/>hall—I believe we drove on to the train for Shanklin.

<hi rend="italic">Cross-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. WILLIAMS</hi>. I was at Shanklin a portion of that tinier—he went there on loth January, 1875—he lived there in very good style, going into the best society of the neighbourhood—part of the time he had tiireo men-servants, namely, a coachman and two in-door servants, a housekeeper and housemaid—he had one horse the best part of the time, and one he jobbed; and he had a brougham and a victoria—I think he was supposed to be a distinguished foreigner in disguise.

<hi rend="italic">Cross-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. CLARKE</hi>. I was in his service from June, 1874, to December, 1875—Clarke came one evening and to breakfast the follow
<lb/>ing morning—I don't remember any other visits; I went for my holidays—I only saw Clarke twice to my knowledge at Shanklin—there were three visits altogether, one evening, then the next morning to breakfast) and then another separate visit altogether—I took the breakfast in, the morning he was there—I knew Kurr at that time by the name of Capta" Gifford—I knew him first by the name of Medway—I first came to know him as Captain Gifford when we went to Switzerland—Benson travelled in the assumed name of Yonge—I saw Mr. Clarke once at the Langnam Hotel—I cannot tell you the date—before I saw him at the Westminster
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220179"/>
Palace Gifford was at both hotels—he was not present when Clarke and Benson were talking together—I do not think he ever saw Gifford at either of those hotels—on the occasion of our visit to Clarke's house we were going from the hotel down to Shanklin—Clarke came out and talked fur twenty minutes at the cab door, and then got in and was put down at Whitehall Place—there was no sort of concealment about it.

<hi rend="italic">Re-examined.</hi> I saw Kurr and also Clarke at the Langham and West
<lb/>minster Palace Hotels—I don't know that Clarke ever saw Kurr and Benson together at either of those hotels.

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-383" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-383" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-383" type="surname" value="KNAGG"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-383" type="given" value="WILLIAM WALTER"/>WILLIAM WALTER KNAGG</persName> </hi>. I am sub
<lb/>manager of the Langham Hotel—Benson was there on 18th August, 1875—he had a servant with him, and he had the rooms Nos. 70, 71, and 98—I do not know whether he had any visitors on that occasion—I was away from the hotel during that visit—lie was there again from 14th February to 15th March, 1876, and had rooms Nos. 68, 69, and 303—he had a servant with him again—he was either wheeled about in a chair or carried—he was there again from 27th June, 1876, to 8th July, under the name of Yonge—the first time he signed the book "W. Gilford, Shanklin"—I heard that he had got an
<hi rend="italic">alias</hi> during his last visit, and then I heard of him as Count Montagu—that was in July, 1876—the servants asked for letters for the Count de Montagu—I remember between 27th June and 8th July, 1876, bis going out for one day in a brougham—I remember one morning receiving a message from his servant, and Meiklejohn. came in five or six minutes afterwards—I asked Meiklejohn what he was doing there—he said that he came to see Mr. Tonge—I said that he could not see Mr. Tonge that day because he was unwell; he said "He is sure to see me"—I knew Meiklejohn perfectly—one of. the pages happened to be passing; I told him to take Meiklejohn's name up to him, and he said "Tell him—Mr. John wishes to see him"—the boy took the message upstairs, and Meiklejohn went up to Yonge's apartments—he did'not give any name—lie said to the boy "Say Mr. John wishes to see him," and the boy went up with the message—I cannot tell whether Meiklejohn waited till the. liny came down—I left him standing there—there was somebody with Meiklejohn—I cannot swear to who he was—it was during his last visit often days—it would be between 27th June and 8th July, 1876—he had no visitors while he was at the hotel except Meiklejohn.

<hi rend="italic">Cross-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. WILLIAMS</hi>. I knew Meiklejohn as a detective inspector—I knew perfectly well who he was; he had arrested somebody in the hotel in 1876.

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-384" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-384" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-384" type="surname" value="LANGDON"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-384" type="given" value="WALTER"/>WALTER LANGDON</persName> </hi>. I am cashier at the Holborn branch of the Union Bank, and was so in April, 1876, when William Kurr kept an account there—this is a cheque of his (
<hi rend="italic">produced</hi>)—it is made payable to H. Collett, and dated 10th April, 1876, for 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>.—I paid it over the counter, in two 20
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. notes, Nos. 35775 and 35776, dated 19th July, and six 10
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. notes, Nos. 45582 to 45587 inclusive, dated 20th September.

<hi rend="italic">Cross-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. GJRAIX</hi>. I was called for the defence in the De Goncourt frauds from the Union Bank—a man named Harry Street tad an account at that bank—these two letters (
<hi rend="italic">produced</hi>) were putinto my hands by Serjeant Parry at the trial, and I was asked if they were written by William Kurr, the convict—to the best of my belief I answered that they were not—they are very similar to Harry Street's writing, and still believe they are his.
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220180"/>

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-385" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-385" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-385" type="surname" value="HERMAN"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-385" type="given" value="HENRY EDWARD"/>HENRY EDWARD HERMAN</persName> </hi>. I am a solicitor, and am nowmanagin? clerk to Mr. Poole, a solicitor—I was in Mr. Poole's office in April and May last year—Mr. Poole was then concerned for two of the executors of George Joseph. This document (
<hi rend="italic">produced</hi>) is among Mr. Joseph's exe
<lb/>cutors' papers—Mr. Poole was concerned for George Joseph, the testator and for two of the executors to the estate—I do not know Inspector Druscovich's writing—this bill of exchange for 120
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. purports to be accepted by him—it is dated 25th April, 1874; the period 24 months—it is for 24 months after date. (
<hi rend="italic">Inspector Williamson here stated that the acceptance to the bill was in Druscwicks writing; it was dated April</hi> 5
<hi rend="italic">th</hi>, 1874,
<hi rend="italic">drawn by George Joseph and accepted by N. Druscovinh, for</hi> 120
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. at 24
<hi rend="italic">months date.</hi>) This letter
<hi rend="italic">produced</hi>) was written by Mr. Booth, who was managing clerk to Mr. Poole—he is dead.
<hi rend="italic">This was dated April</hi> 29,
<hi rend="italic">to Druscovich. stating that unless the</hi> 120
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. and 5
<hi rend="italic">s</hi>.
<hi rend="italic">charges were paid by the follow
<lb/>ing Monday, proceedings would be instituted.</hi>) Mr. Booth told me that Druscovich claimed to have paid off 15
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>.—this letter was written by Mr. Booth. (
<hi rend="italic">This was dated May 5th, 1876, to Druscovich, acknowledging tkereceipt of</hi> 15
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>.,
<hi rend="italic">and requesting the balance</hi>, 105
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>.,
<hi rend="italic">to be sent.</hi>) I have not got with me the account in the suit—I saw Druscovicb. once at Mr. Poole's office I believe it was on 2nd May—T cannot remember whether anybody was with him—I heard from Mr. Booth that the 105
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. was paid, and that he would pay the money he received to Mr. Poole's bank or to Mr. Poole himself—generally he paid money to Mr. Poole, who banked at Eansome, Bouverie, and Co.'s—this is the paying-in slip—it is in Mr. Booth's writing.
<hi rend="italic">This was dated 11th may</hi>, 187G.
<hi rend="italic">crediting H. H. Poole with three draflt, amounting to</hi> 32
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. 2
<hi rend="italic">s</hi>. 9
<hi rend="italic">d</hi>.,
<hi rend="italic">and Joseph Druscovich's bank notes</hi> 105
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>.) It is usual in paying in to bankers to designate the different sums, and we generally put the names of the persons who receive them, it assists our
<lb/>selves.

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-386" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-386" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-386" type="surname" value="FOSTER"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-386" type="given" value="WILLIAM"/>WILLIAM FOSTER</persName> </hi>. I am cashier at Messrs. Ransome and Bouverie's, and was so in May, 1876—Mr. Poole, the solicitor, of Bartholomew Close, kept an account with them—on 11th May, 1876, 137
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. 2
<hi rend="italic">s</hi>. 6
<hi rend="italic">d</hi>. was paid in to his account—this book is not kept by myself—the entry in it was made by Mr. Cox, one of our cashiers—when the evidence was wanted the book was given into my hands to make up—upon that Poole paid in the sum. of 137
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. 2
<hi rend="italic">s</hi>. 9
<hi rend="italic">d</hi>.—105
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. was paid in Bank of England notes, two tens, Nos. 45582 and 45583, dated 20th September, two twenties, Nos. 35775 and 35776, dated 19th July, and nine 5
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. notes.

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-387" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-387" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-387" type="surname" value="CRESSWELL"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-387" type="given" value="SACHAVEREL GORDON"/>SACHAVEREL GORDON CRESSWELL</persName> </hi>. I am a solicitor at Daventry—the letter (
<hi rend="italic">produced</hi>) is in my handwriting—I sent a copy of it on May 29th to a man named Edward Parbrook—I had previously seen the advertise
<lb/>ment in the Sporting Life (
<hi rend="italic">produced</hi>)—with the letter I sent a P. O. O. for 10
<hi rend="italic">s</hi>.—I sent the letter (
<hi rend="italic">produced</hi>) to Scotland Yard, with a copy of my letter to Parbrook. (
<hi rend="italic">The advertisement referred to in the first letter was headed "Great Double Event Competition—Derhj and Oaks," and went on to say that the sum of</hi> 50
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>.
<hi rend="italic">would be given to each gentleman who should name the absolute winners of the Derby and Oaks. Communications were to be forwarded to Mr. Parbrook:, of</hi> 31,
<hi rend="italic">Cumming Street, Pentonville, London, on or before Tuesday morning, the 30th of April. Each competitor was to forward a sum of</hi> 10
<hi rend="italic">s</hi>.
<hi rend="italic">Mr. Parbrook. As it was expected that a great number of commissioners con
<lb/>nected with the turf would compete, the whole of the information sent would in sifted. A proportionate share of the winnings was also offered to the sucessful</hi> 
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220181"/>

<hi rend="italic">competitors. The letter to Parbrook named Petrarch as the winner of the Derby and Camellia of the Oaks. The letter to Scotland Yard directed attention to the advertisement, stated that</hi> 10
<hi rend="italic">s</hi>.
<hi rend="italic">had been placed on Petrarch and Camellia, and added</hi> "
<hi rend="italic">Whether the advertisement is a swindle or not remains to be proved. Should you require any evidence from me, I shall be happy to offer it on payment of my railway fare to town and back. I may add that I am a professional man.</hi>) I did not prosecute.

<hi rend="italic">Cross-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. WILLIAMS</hi>. Camellia ran a dead heat for the Oaks, and Mineral Colt won the Derby.

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-388" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-388" type="gender" value="female"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-388" type="surname" value="BRUCE"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-388" type="given" value="ROSA"/>ROSA BRUCE</persName> </hi>. I reside at 28, Grosvenor Road, Stoke Newington—last year I let apartments in my house to a person named Benson, who went by the name of Yonge—a gentleman named Murray took the apartments for him—Yonge came to live there on the 3rd of August, 1876, and remained a week, leaving on the 10th—the convict W. Kurr daily came to the house while Benson was there—sometimes Murray came with him, and sometimes Kurr came alone—Benson's secretary also came, I do not know his name—I did not receive a letter from Benson after he left.

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-389" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-389" type="gender" value="female"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-389" type="surname" value="ETHELL"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-389" type="given" value="AGNES"/>AGNES ETHELL</persName> </hi>. I reside at 55, Beresford Road, Highbury—I was residing there last year, and had a person lodging in my house by the name of Yonge—I know him now to be the convict Benson—he came on the 10th of August and left on the 24th—his secretary took the apartments—I have since learnt that his secretary was the convict Frederick Kurr—I remember a person named Gifford coming there—I now know Him to be the convict William Kurr—the convict Bale also visited Benson—Benson had a man-servant with him, Pierre Pionchon, a Frenchman—I remember that on Saturday, the 19th of August, I had a dinner to prepare for three persons—the dinner was on the following day—I did not see any of the guests.

<hi rend="italic">Cross-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. GRAIN</hi>. I do not know 25, Devonshire Street, Islington—I do not know that there is such a street—I did not see a dark man about thirty years of age call while Benson was there—I do not recollect a person named Street coming.

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-390" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-390" type="gender" value="female"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-390" type="surname" value="ASSYS"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-390" type="given" value="LOUISA"/>LOUISA ASSYS</persName> </hi>. I live at 120, Newington Green Road—I remember the convict Benson as Yonge coming to my house to lodge in 1876—he came on the 24th August and left on the 27th of September—I remember the night before he went to Glasgow—I was disturbed that night a few minutes before twelve by a knocking at the front door—I went to the door and opened it on the chain—when I looked out I saw the young man who acted as Benson's clerk—I did not know him then—I now know him to be the brother of Captain Gifford, the convict Frederick Kurr—in consequence of what was said I went up to the servant's bedroom and afterwards made a further communication to the man outside, who threw stones at Benson's window and broke it—after stopping about a quarter of an hour they left—next morning Benson received a note, and he went away directly in a Hansom cab—he had breakfast first—he left for Glasgow in the evening.

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-391" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-391" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-391" type="surname" value="REINHARDT"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-391" type="given" value="CHARLES"/>CHARLES REINHARDT</persName> </hi>. I am a foreign banker and money-changer in Coventry Street, Haymarket—in November last I cashed a number of drafts on the Credit Lyonnaise of Paris—these documents (
<hi rend="italic">produced</hi>) were amongst them—I paid the money to the man who represented himself as Mr. Roberts, now better known as the convict Bale—the total amount of English money that I paid him between the 9th and 21st September was
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220182"/>
12,835
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. 9
<hi rend="italic">s</hi>. 3
<hi rend="italic">d</hi>.—the 21st of September was the last date upon which I cashed any drafts—on that day I paid him 6,032
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. 2
<hi rend="italic">s</hi>. 11
<hi rend="italic">d</hi>.—the greater part of it was paid in notes, 6,030
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. I believe—sixty 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. notes—I cannot give the numbers and dates of them—I can recognise the notes—we do not take any numbers when we pay out the notes—we can always tell where we take the notes from, by our private mark—these (
<hi rend="italic">produced</hi>) are the notes—there are more than sixty here—they have all passed through my hands—I made a payment to this man by this cheque on the 9th of Sep. tember, for 12,821
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. 5
<hi rend="italic">s</hi>. 9
<hi rend="italic">d</hi>.—I also made a payment by cheque onthe 13th of September by these cheques, one for 1,000
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>., and one for 200
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>., drawn in favour of J. Francis—upon that same day I paid him 476
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. 0
<hi rend="italic">s</hi>. 11
<hi rend="italic">d</hi>. in cash, and on the 18th of September I made a payment of 1,971
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. 3
<hi rend="italic">s</hi>. 8
<hi rend="italic">d</hi>. by this cheque—the drafts are generally payable to bearer—one got made out to the order of Francis—my attention was called to the De Gon-court fraud I believe on the 27th of September—I could not fix the date—Druscovich called either on the 27th or 28th—he asked for the numbers of the notes that we had paid to Bale—of course it is too long ago for me to recollect what he said to me—he inquired about the case; he told me that he was instructed by Mr. Abrahams in the matter of the De Goncourt fraud, and asked for the numbers of the notes; in fact Mr. Abrahams had told me to get the numbers of the sixty 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. notes, and by the time Druscovich called I suppose I had them ready—I knew very well on what business he called—I was able to give him the numbers of the sixty 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. notes—I can only recognise the notes by my mark—I did not at that time give him the numbers—I got the numbers from the source I received them from—I only got the numbers on the 27th or 28th of September, and I handed them to Druscovich without keeping a copy of them—I think forty-nine came from the London and County, three from Barclay's, and eight from the Union Bank, Charing Cross—I sent my clerk to make inquiries at those banks as to the numbers of the notes directly after Mr. Druscovich had called, and as soon as I had them I gave them to him—I gave him also a letter to the manager of my bank—I have seen that letter since in the hands of Druscovich—it was a letter merely stating the numbers and dates of the amounts, requesting the manager to put the numbers of the notes—I might have seen Druscovich again the next day—I had given him the numbers of the sixty 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. notes the same day that Mr. Abrahams called on me, the first day—I cannot say that I gave Druscovich the letter on that same day, it might have been the day following—I do not know Druscovich's writing.
<hi rend="italic">A paper was handed to Drus
<lb/>covich, who said the whole of it was his writing. This contained the numbers and dates of thenotes.</hi> I do not know what "Clydesdale" refers to, because there is no branch of the Bank of England at Clydesdale—I had nothing to do with the Clydesdale notes—the notes before me are not sorted, they have passed through my hands once or twice before—I recognise all these notes—these are eight 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. notes that do not belong to the sixty—these are the sixty of which I gave the numbers to Druscovich.

<hi rend="italic">Cross-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. STRAIGHT</hi>. I cannot say whether the first visitof Druscovich was the 27th or 28th of September—it was one of the two—I suppose it would be best to say the 28th—Mr. Abrahams had been to me before Druscovich came, in the morning; and it was from him that I first learned of the fraud upon this lady—they both came the same day,
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220183"/>
I think—the interval of time was more than two or three hours—I have no recollection whether Druscovich when he came in said he expected to find Mr. Abrahams at my office—I do not recollect Druscovich saving he had come from Scotland Yard, and that he expected to find Mr. Abrahams with me—I believe Druscovich did ask what kind of man it was who had cashed the drafts—most likely I gave him a description of the man—I cannot say what I described the man as; I really do not remember—I might have told him that I was just going to send into the City for the numbers of the notes—Mr. Abrahams called on me in the morning and I sent my clerk off immediately—I might have said so to Druscovich—it is too long ago for me to fix the hour—it might have been about one o'clock in the day—it is very possible Druscovich asked me whether he should call in a couple of hours' time for the numbers, and I may very likely have said it would be too early—I cannot answer whether Druscovich told me he had an appointment with Mr. Abrahams at Marlborough Street at four o'clock that afternoon—he may have said so; I cannot say for certain—it is very likely he may have said he would call either before or after he had been there—it is very probable that I said to him "To be on the safe side you had better come after"—I could not fix the hour that he came to me—it was late in
<hi rend="italic">the</hi> afternoon—I do not recollect on giving him the numbers of the sixty 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. notes his saying to me "This cannot be the lot, as the party defrauded has been defrauded of 10,000
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>."—I do not recollect his saying anything of the sort he might have said something to that effect—I do not know that I said "You are quite right, because the whole of my transactions with Jacob Francis amounted to 13,000
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>."—I do not know that I had cast it up—I scarcely think I made that observation—I may have told Druscovich at that time that it was not the whole, but I could not have mentioned the amount because I had to go over the books to find it—I then told him that the numbers of the sixty 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. notes were the numbers of the list—I did not tell him that Mr. Abrahams had intimated to me that it would be sufficient if I got the numbers of the notes; sufficient for the present, he might have said—I should think I had seen Druscovich after the 2nd of October—I do not remember his coming to me and telling me that he thought the notes may have been taken on the Continent—as I told you before, it is too long ago to swear to, and I should not like to swear to it—I think I am quite on the safe side to swear that it was not on the 2nd of October that he asked me for the list of the first batch of notes, because we lost no time in tracing the notes, and I think it was either a day or two—my impression is that Druscovich had the numbers of the sixty 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. notes and the letter to the manager of the Union Bank within the space of twenty-four hours; that is my impression, I am not prepared to swear to it—I did not give him a list of the cheques; I put it in the letter to the manager of the bank—I merely gave him a letter to the manager of the bank, and the numbers and amounts of the cheques in that letter; it amounts to the same thing—I remember his coming back to me and saying there was some mistake about an 800
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. cheque, they could not find it at the bank, for the very simple reason that it was cancelled and altered into a larger amount—it was cancelled and could not be produced—it never was presented—I had by mistake
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220184"/>
put it to the number of the cheque for 800
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. and he came back from tie bank and told me that the clerk could not find this one.

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-392" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-392" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-392" type="surname" value="BLUNDELL"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-392" type="given" value="EDWIN"/>EDWIN BLUNDELL</persName> </hi>. I am a cashier in the Charing Cross branch of the Union Bank—I was there in September last year—I remember Inspector Druscovich coming there one day with a letter from Mr. Reinhardt, of Coventry Street—I cannot say when it was—the letter contained a list of certain cheques which had been drawn by Mr. Reinhardt on our branch—on the list I attached the numbers of the notes which had been drawn out in payment of those cheques—I gave the note to Druscovich, with the particulars—I saw him again a few days afterwards at the Charing Cross branch—he asked me for a fresh list, to the best of my belief—I gave him a fresh list—I believe he said he had mis-laid the other list or lost it—I don't think that is the list (
<hi rend="italic">produced</hi>) which I gave him—it is in my writing, a copy of the numbers—I believe it is the one I gave to Mr. Abrahams' clerk—it is a list of the same notes of which I gave a list to Druscovich.

<hi rend="italic">Cross-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. STRAIGHT</hi>. I believe it was latish in the day when first Druscovich came with the letter, and I told him the books were below, and that he should have the numbers next morning—there are a good many books—he called and asked for the numbers, and I gave them to him next morning.

<hi rend="italic">Re-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. GORST</hi>. He came to me with a letter, and asked for the numbers of these notes—I did not give them to him at once, not till the next morning, on the letter which he brought—the second list was given some days after.

<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. WILLIAMSON</hi> (
<hi rend="italic">re-examined</hi>). One of those two papers is in the handwriting of Greenham, "Druscovich" is endorsed on the back—a portion of it is in the handwriting of Sergeant-Manton, with Druscovich's endorsement on the back.

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-393" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-393" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-393" type="surname" value="WOODROW"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-393" type="given" value="CHARLES"/>CHARLES WOODROW</persName> </hi>. I am an inspector of police on the Midland Bail-way, and am now living in Norfolk Street, Manchester—in the month of September last year I was stationed at the St. Pancras station in London—I know the convict William Kurr by sight—I have seen him once or twice during the month of September—he spoke to me once—I think I have seen him with Meiklejohn and Druscovich about four times—I only saw him in Druecovich's company once; that was in the latter part of September—I saw Druscovich first—he was standing on the arrival platform at St. Pancras station about half-past eight or 20 to nine at night—while he was on the platform the train arrived from Derby—I saw Meiklejohn and Kurr get out of a first-class compartment—Meiklejohn said to me "Have you seen Druscovich?" then before I had time to answer him, he said "Oh, there he is"—then they all three went together across the platform through the booking-office, into
<lb/>the entrance of the Midland Hotel Restaurant—this was after Meiklejohn went to Derby—Meiklejohn spoke to me one evening after September on the platform—he asked me if I knew Mr. Froggatt—I said "Do you mean Mr. Froggatt the solicitor?"—he said "Yes"—I told him "I do not know as I know the gentleman at all." "Well,"he says, "I have got an appointment with him here; there is something wrong with the lease of my house"—after that I saw him go and speak to some one—I afterwards saw him leave with a gentleman, not a policeman.
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220185"/>

<hi rend="italic">Cross-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. WILLIAMS</hi>. I cannot fix any time as to when Meiklejohn went down to Derby; my mind is rather hazy as to dates.

<hi rend="italic">Cross-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. STRAIGHT</hi>. I am a detective in the police force on the Midland Railway, not a Metropolitan policeman—I do not belong to the regular police force—I am a railway policeman, and often have to investigate crimes—I don't often take refreshment with bad characters—when I have got an inquiry to make I do the best thing I can—I have stood at bars with people of bad character before now—Kurr got out of the carriage first, and walked down the platform as far as the entrance—about fifty yards from there—he had to go round—he was about seven yards from me when Meiklejohn came and asked me about Druscovich—he walked straight ahead, as if he was going out of the station—I do not know that I spoke to Druscovich in my life—I do not know whether he knew me—I had seen him at Scotland Yard and going to the police-courts—I believe he would know I was an inspector of the Midland Police—Meiklejohn asked for Inspector Druscovich in his own name, the moment he jumped out of the train.

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-394" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-394" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-394" type="surname" value="REIMERS"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-394" type="given" value="WILLIAM"/>WILLIAM REIMERS</persName> </hi>. I am a detective-sergeant at Scotland Yard—on the 28th of September, before twelve o'clock, I received orders from Druscovich. respecting stopped notes—he gave me a piece of paper, and said "Go to the Bank of England and stop these notes for me." The numbers of the notes and the particulars were written on that piece of paper—I went to the Bank and stopped the notes—I had to sign my Dame in a book—the numbers were written in a book, and then I signed my name; those (
<hi rend="italic">referring</hi>) are the notes I stopped—that is my signature "William Reimers, for Druscovich"—I saw Druscovich on the same evening, and told him what I had done—in the latter part of November, or beginning of December, as Druscovich and I were walking over Vauxhall Bridge, I said "How are you getting on with the turf swindle?" He said "Damn the turf swindle! I wish I had never heard anything of it." He then added "I hare documents in my hand with which I could amash two"—just before he said this I had said "I believe there is some one else in it besides Meiklejohn"—then he made the remark about the documents—I then said "Have you told the Governor so?" (meaning Mr. Williamson)—to that he replied "No, I have not; let him find out like I have done"—I then said to him "Surely you will not jeopardise your position for the sake of screening others?"—he made no reply—in Aug. last year I was employed to make inquiries about the Gainsborough picture, and on one occasion I went at seven o'clock in the evening to Meiklejohn's house to make some communication to him—I did not find him in, but saw his wife and made some communication to her—on the same evening, at eleven o'clock, I saw Meiklejohn—he told me "I have been at a dinner-party, and I am very sorry that you disturbed me," or words to that effect—I think this was on the 19th of August or September, on a Saturday—on the second of May in the present year I met Mr. Froggatt in Oxford Street, close to Argyll Street, and went with him to the Pamphilion, a public-house at the top of Argyll Street—Froggatt said in the presence of two other men "Well, Mr. Reimers, is the missing letter found yet?" I said "What missing letter?" He said "Don't you know?" I said "No, I do not know what you are alluding to?" He then said "A superintendent from a northern town wrote to Mr. Williamson that a Clydesdale note had been changed there, and that letter never
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220186"/>
came to Mr. Williamson's hand"—I said "I know nothing of it and I do not want to know"—Froggatt then said "I can give a guess what became of that letter."

<hi rend="italic">Cross-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. STRAIGHT</hi>. I have been in the force 18 years—I will swear there have not been 20 complaints against me—I have been charged with an assault before the magistrate, when you prosecuted and failed to get a conviction—the magistrate did not reprimand me on that occasion—I was at one time an inspector, and was reduced to the position of sergeant on the 24th of December, 1876—I swear that the Commissioners did not first of all call upon me to resign my position—it was alleged that I had taken advantage of my position as a police officer to give information to a private inquiry agent of the name of Pollaky—it was alleged, instigated by your client Druseovich, that for 10 months and a fortnight I had supplied Pollaky with a "rough" of my Bremerhaven report—I was friendly with Pollaky at the time—we had not quarrelled, but I believe Druscovich set Pollaky to inform against me, and in consequence of what Druscovich did Pollaky gave information at Scotland Yard about the information that I had given him—the matter was investi-gated by Colonel Henderson and afterwards by the Home Secretary, Mr. Cross—after that I was suspended while the proceedings were going on, and reduced—I believed that this was a conspiracy between Pollaky and Druscovich; here is the proof of it (
<hi rend="italic">producing a paper</hi>), if the learned counsel will read it—I swear, in the presence of Superintendent "Williamson, that I was not ordered to send in my resignation—I do not know the date of the interview with Druscovich—I made a report of it to Superintendent Williamson two days after—not a written report—I told him all that I have told you—Mr. Druscovich had been out of town, either the latter part of November or December—we went from Scotland Yard to the South Lambeth "Road—I was the best part of an hour with him—after the conversation we had a glass together at the Elephant and Castle, at the corner of Vauxhall crossing and the South Lambeth Road.

<hi rend="italic">By</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. WILLIAMS</hi>. It depends on the Commissioners whether, if Meiklejohn and Druscovich were turned out of the police force, I should be the next for promotion—I am not the eldest officer by two.

<hi rend="italic">Cross-examined by</hi> Mr. Collins. Before Mr. Froggatt spoke to me about a missing letter, there had been a good deal of talk amongst the members of the police force about it—it was a matter of common report.

<hi rend="italic">Re-examined.</hi> It was after I had made the report to Superintendent Williamson upon the conversation that I had with Druscovich, that the complaint was made by Pollaky against me—I was on perfectly friendly terms with Druscovich, and had no idea then of what I have since been convinced of—it was after that report that a complaint was made by Druscovich.

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-395" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-395" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-395" type="surname" value="GREENHAM"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-395" type="given" value="GEORGE"/>GEORGE GREENHAM</persName> </hi>. I am a detective inspector at Scotland Yard—on the 3rd of October last year I received directions to stop some bank notes—I have not got my diary with me—I was not told to bring it—I have got a copy of the entries. (
<hi rend="italic">Head</hi>: Copy from diary of October 3rd, 1876—"Was in charge of special patrols, H Division; also Herman Andrew, deserting wife and children in France, Charlotte Street, Soho, Islington. Engaged till 12 a.m.; also Bank of England, Chief-Inspector Drusco vich. To stop notes re Turf Frauds.") That is all—I was engaged "in charge of special patrols, H Division" from 5 till 11 o'clock at night in
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220187"/>
Leman Street, Whitechapel—I was walking about in that neighbourhood—the entry that relates to Herman Andrews is an inquiry respecting a man for deserting his wife and family, for the French police—there is no address—the address in my memorandum, Charlotte Street, Soho, is simply where I went to make inquiries on that day—I cannot say whether I went to the City to stop the notes before that or afterwards—I cannot remember whether any one went with me to the Bank of England or not—it must have been some time before 5 o'clock—I cannot remember, but I must have seen Inspector Druscovich after I stopped the notes, evidently on the same day, to give him the answer—I have never said at what time I went to the bank—this is my signature in the stoppage-book—thoseare the notes I stopped—I think I stopped all the notes Druscovich had told me to stop—I cannot say whether this is the paper I went to the bank with or not—those are the numbers of the notes—I wrote down the numbers of the notes when I saw Mr. Druscovich—this is the paper on which
<hi rend="italic">I wrote</hi> down Druscovich's directions—it is in my own hand
<lb/>writing—there are some notes
<hi rend="italic">here</hi> that are not mentioned in the book—I did not stop all the notes on this paper—it is a list of those I was to stop and a number of notes that I did not stop—I either copied it from Druscovich's dictation or from another paper—it is evident from this book that I did not stop at the bank all the notes the numbers of which are mentioned in the blue paper—I cannot tell you why—this other paper is in Druscovich's handwriting—it may be that some notes had been paid into the Bank of England—I may have been told so, but I cannot remember.

<hi rend="italic">Monday, Nov. 5th.</hi> 

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-396" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-396" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-396" type="surname" value="GREENHAM"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-396" type="given" value="GEORGE"/>GEORGE GREENHAM</persName> </hi> (
<hi rend="italic">re-examined</hi>). The blue paper I produced on Friday contains the numbers of the notes which I had taken down at Drusco-yich's dictation—I had also the stoppage-book at the bank——I found I had not stopped all the notes on that paper—the reason is that some had already been paid—I think the bank-book, in the ordinary course of Business, would tell what had been paid in and where they came from—I should, in the ordinary course of duty, give that information to Druscovich—I cannot recollect whether I did—I must have done so.

<hi rend="italic">Cross-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. WILLIAMS</hi>. I very seldom attend race-meetings—I do sometimes—when I want to get information I often have to mix with very bad company—when I obtain such information I never give up the names of my informants—we never do it—if we did we should not be able to get the information—I from time to time attended the preliminary inquiry at Bow Street—Meiklejohn, Druscovich, and Palmer were arrested on July the 12th—Kurr and Benson were cross-examined about the middle of August I think—they gave the whole account involving Clarke and the rest of them—Clarke was not arrested till Saturday, the 8th of September—up to that time he was performing his duties at Scotland Yard as chief-inspector.

<hi rend="italic">Cross-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. STRAIGHT</hi>. I took the numbers of the notes from a paper shown me by Druscovich—the paper was like a letter—I copied it from a letter, but what letter I cannot tell you—I cannot show that it was destroyed—after I had taken those numbers I went to the Bank of England—I saw the stoppage book there—I think I was told by the clerk that some of the numbers had come in—I think I saw Druscovich' again that afternoon—I do not know that he wrote to Scotland; it would appear in the letter-book of the office, a book that Mr. Williamson will
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220188"/>
be able to produce—on the 11th of November I was sent to Shanklin—I made some inquiries—on my return to town Mr. Abrahams found fault with me for having been too pressing in my inquiries at Shanklin, that I was too energetic—I was only one day at Shanklin—Sayer and I went to Druscovich's house after he was taken into custody—we brought away a large number of cigar-boxes—I do not know how many there were—we also brought away all the jewellery belonging to Mrs. Druscovich we could find—I think Druscovich has been in the force about fifteen years.

<hi rend="italic">Cross-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. BESLEY</hi>. I was simply engaged in assisting Inspector Clarke in some of the betting prosecutions of 1872—there were a great many cases in that year—they were prosecuted under the Betting Act—a good many of those betting-offices went to Scotland, and later on to France—when a case is put into the hands of a detective officer at Scotland Yard if he requires assistance he asks for it—if he can attend to it himself he does it without instructions—we don't generally discuss the whole of the cases there—I heard of the Walters and Murray fraud—I believe Chief-Inspector Clarke had charge of that case—it was in that way I heard of it—I can't say whether Palmer had anything to do with it—I don't know that he had—that fraud was carried out by means of advertisements in foreign papers, prospectuses, directors, and solicitors and sworn brokers, occupying the whole side of a newspaper.

<hi rend="italic">Cross-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. CLARKE</hi>. I knew that Clarke was in charge of the Walters and Murray case—I do not know the O'Regan case—I knew generally that Clarke for years had charge of the betting cases, the Turf Fraud cases, and I should think he was pretty notorious, not only in the force, but among the betting people themselves—he was constantly appearing at the police-courts in such cases—when police inspectors are on leave and going about on their own pleasure, they are in the habit of getting railway passes given them by the authorities of the different railways—in the course of their official duty they constantly come into contact with the authorities of railway companies, and when out on then" own pleasure make their expenses lighter in that way.

<hi rend="italic">Cross-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. COLLINS</hi>. I cannot tell you who took Mr. Froggatt into custody—I cannot say whether he was taken on a warrant—I heard that Clarke took him into custody.

<hi rend="italic">By the</hi> Court. On obtaining information as to a fraud or what not, supposing a superior officer or chief inspector to have the charge of the case, we discuss the matter with him, but we do not give the name of our informant at any time, we can discuss it without doing that—in the case of a fraud which Superintendent Williamson or Chief Inspector Clarke might have charge of, and I had to go to Birmingham, Manchester, or Paris, and obtained information, it would be different—I mean in the case of an apprehension taking place, where a man is pointed out and we get information, providing the person who told me asked me not to disclose his name, I would not do so—it must be a question of degree in each case.

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-397" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-397" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-397" type="surname" value="HEWKE"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-397" type="given" value="HERBERT CUSTON"/>HERBERT CUSTON HEWKE</persName> </hi>. I am an officer in the secretary's office of the Bank of England—I have the book containing an entry of notes stopped at the bank on the 28th September, 1876, by "W. Reimers, for N. Druscovich"—the stop was merely in the name of Chief-Inspector Druscovich—there were fifty-six notes stopped of £100 each, 28th
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220189"/>
January, 1876—Reimers came to stop them at 3.50—I cannot say whether he asked me to stop any besides—I have an entry here of notes stopped on the 3rd October, 1876, by George Greenham—they were really stopped for Chief-Inspector Druscovich, but by George Greenham; he was acting or him—the stop was taken in Druscovich's name at 12.40—there were fourteen notes, 58376—83, 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. notes; 58359—68, also 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. notes; and 60771, also 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. note, bearing date 28th January, 1876; that would be about twenty-nine—I say fourteen notes, because some of the nineteen appeared afterwards to have been in the bank—it sometimes happens that the notes are in the bank, but we are unable to get the information in our office—we can tell up to two days whether notes are paid in or not—also Nos. 66319 and 76362, 50
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. each, 27th January, 1876; No. 45037, 20
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>., 26th January, 1876; 16643—45, 10
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. each, 21st December, 1875—it appeared afterwards that Nos. 58359 to 58368 and 60771 were stopped in error, those notes having been already paid.

<hi rend="italic">Cross-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. STRAIGHT</hi>. In the case of a police officer or an inspector on duty at any police station, we should take his revoke for a stop, or we should take the signature of the officer whom he sent—we should not require his authority to the person he sent, if he was a police officer—if a policeman comes to me and says he comes from an inspector at the station, I should take his stop, not any policeman out of the street—the stoppage book is not open to the inspection of anybody, it is kept in the secretary's office—if you gave a satisfactory reason you could see it.

<hi rend="italic">By</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">THE COURT</hi>. We should find out that the person had some real interest in it—we have all sorts of people asking for information, and we are obliged to be very particular. "

<hi rend="italic">Re-examined by the</hi> Attorney-General. When Greenham came, in all probability he explained who he was; he must have had a list of the notes he wanted stopped, for this reason, that he would put the particulars of the notes he was desirous of stopping on another slip of paper—if some of the notes had been returned to the bank, we should not stop them—it might so happen that they might be put down in error—I can't say whether some of the notes which Greenham had on his list had already been paid in, I should imagine so from this entry—the entry is "Nos. 58359—68 and 58,777 were stopped in error, those notes having been already paid in"—that is simply a footnote—that leads me to suppose that certain of the notes on his list had been paid in, I mean had been, returned to the bank—I cannot say now from whence they had come; it could be ascertained very easily, but that is in a different department—we should simply know the names of the bankers or the persons who paid them in—that entry might or might not show whether they came from the Clydesdale Bank—I can't say when it would be discovered that the notes had been paid in—I should imagine very shortly afterwards by this entry—the person would merely say "Don't trouble yourself about those, they have been paid in"—when I say "stopped in error," perhaps that is a wrong expression, I mean they may already have been paid in—it does not necessarily mean that they had been paid to the knowledge of the persons stopping them—it might have been so, I can't say, or it might be an error on our side, not knowing they had been paid in, I am not in a position to say.

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-398" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-398" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-398" type="surname" value="WILSON"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-398" type="given" value="HENRY"/>HENRY WILSON</persName> </hi>. I am a clerk in the detective department at Scotland
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220190"/>
Yard—on the 3rd October, 1876, a letter was written by me, dictated by Chief Inspector Druscovich, to Mr. P. Browne, Superintendent of Detective Police, Glasgow—that letter was as follows: "Dear Sir,—Warrants have been issued against five men for having attempted to defraud a French lady of upwards of 10,000
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. There were the following Bank of England notes (
<hi rend="italic">numbers and amounts specified</hi>). These notes have been paid into the Bank of England by Messrs. Barnett, Hoare, and Co., of London, who received them through the Clydesdale Bank, Glasgow. "Will you be good enough to inquire as to the source from which the notes emanated, and inform me of the result at your convenience? Upon the receipt of a telegram from you I will at once send down an officer. (Signed) G. Clarke." (
<hi rend="italic">The numbers of the notes were attached to the letter.</hi>) That letter was copied into the letter-book of the office by me—there was one more letter copied by me on that day—it was a letter about the You Howard case—the latest time at which those letters could be copied was sis o'clock, if they were dispatched that night—letters are generally sent on the same day on which they are written—there is an office diary—it is kept by Sergeant Neale—the letters were put into the bag for the post at a quarter to six—if they are not put into the bag then they would not be dispatched at six o'clock—I cannot remember the time at which the letter to Superintendent Browne was written—I can only say that I wrote it in the afternoon at the dictation of Inspector Druscovich, and it was copied—to the best of my belief Chief Inspector Clarke was present in the office at the time—on the 26th October a letter was received at the office—I believe Druscovich was in charge on that day—this is the letter (
<hi rend="italic">produced</hi>)—from this memorandum I conclude that Druscovich was in charge on 26th October; it would then be his duty to open all the letters and attend to them.

<hi rend="italic">Cross-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. STRAIGHT</hi>. The entry-book and the diary would show who was the Chief Inspector on duty—the Chief Inspector has himself to sign the book showing that he was on duty—sometimes an inspector might wish to send a letter, and he would make a rough draft and I should copy it from that—that would be copied into the book as well—there were only two letters written on 3rd October—I don't always write the letters—I can say that I wrote the one that was sent to Glasgow—I have to keep the various books in the office and to attend to the correspondence and reports which are received—I cannot recollect sending a telegram to Macnab at Glasgow for Druscovich—I have some recollection of a telegram being sent to the chief of the police there, but I can't say that I sent it; I don't recollect sending it.

<hi rend="italic">Cross-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. CLARKE</hi>. The letter would not be posted into the letter-book from the rough draft—I should write the actual letter which is to be dispatched from the draft, and then the letter would be copied into the book from the letter itself, not from the draft—letters could be sent by post as late as seven o'clock by paying extra postage; in an important case that might be done, it is not very often done—the letters are always signed by the officer in charge of the office, by Superintendent Williamson when he is there, and on this occasion, the 3rd October, by Chief Inspector Clarke, in the absence of his chief—he was the acting superintendent that day, and it was in that capacity that he signed the letter—the principal officers on duty at Scotland Yard take separate cases for themselves—I do not think Mr. Clarke had anything to do with the writing of this
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220191"/>
particular letter; he was sitting on the opposite side of the desk in his chair, I believe, when I was writing the letter from Druscovich's dictation—he would only sign it as being the superintendent officer that day.

<hi rend="italic">Re-examined by the</hi> Attorney-General. When Druscovich dictated the letter Mr. Clarke was sitting in his usual place—Druscovich spoke aloud, so that any one in the office could hear him—after it was written I should lav it before Mr. Clarke in the ordinary course—he usually reads the letters—he might not have read this one, as he was there and heard it—if he had not heard it it would have been his business to read it—I say that Druscovich was in charge of the office on the 26th of October from this memorandum, it is my writing—it is his signature—the memorandum is "Detective Department, 26th October, 1876. Memorandum. The attached letter was received yesterday evening." Then that is signed "N. Druscovich, Chief Inspector for Superintendent." From that I can say that he was in charge that day—I do not keep the diary, Sergeant Neale does that.

<hi rend="italic">By</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. STRAIGHT</hi>. There is a letter in this book of the 2nd October to Jams, Chief Constable of Portsmouth—that is in my handwriting—I do not think I wrote the letter, but I copied it—there was such a letter inthe office—that would not get into the official book.

<hi rend="italic">By</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL</hi>. Here is an entry on the 26th October: "Percy Robinson, Forgery and Fraud, also Aublin." That is in Drusco
<lb/>vich's writing—in the absence of Mr. "Williamson it would be the duty of the inspector in charge to open the letters, and his only.

<hi rend="italic">By</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. STRAIGHT</hi>. At one time the clerks opened the letters when the inspector was not there—I am not prepared to swear that at that time the clerks were not in the habit of opening the letters.

<hi rend="italic">By</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL</hi>. Before the Turf Fraud case came on it was the practice for the letters to be opened by Sergeant Neale, but I understand there was something about some letter or letters being missing, and an order was given by Mr. Williamson that the letters were not to be opened either by Neale or myself—I cannot tell at what date that order was given—at all events it was after the information about the turf frauds—before that the letters were mostly opened by Sergeant Neale—his position there is identical with mine—I am a clerk—we were the only two clerks—if anybody opens the letters except the officer in charge it would be myself or Neale—I did not open any letter from Leeds dated October 25th, received on the 25th, referring to the changing of a Clydesdale bank note at Leeds.

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-399" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-399" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-399" type="surname" value="BROWN"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-399" type="given" value="DANIEL GOSSETT"/>DANIEL GOSSETT BROWN</persName> </hi> (
<hi rend="italic">Policeman A</hi> 218). I received a telegraphic message at Scotland Yard in October, 1876—this book (
<hi rend="italic">produced</hi>) is called the Telegraphic Message Book—I make entries in it—this entry on the 3rd October is mine—if the telegrams are for Scotland Yard they are sent over to the department—by looking at this entry I am able to fix the hour at which Inspector Druscovich was the chief officer at Scotland Yard, 3.35—we put down the time we receive the message and the time we send the answer—I can tell by looking at this entry that Druscovich was at the office at that particular hour from 3.35 to 3.40.

<hi rend="italic">Cross-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. STRAIGHT</hi>. I only know it by the entry—the entry is: "There is a message from the City to know if D. was at C. O." The answer is: "Yes, 3.40." That was when I sent the answer.

<hi rend="italic">Cross-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. BESLEY</hi>. I cannot say whether I was on duty
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220192"/>
on 10th November—I have not got the Telegraph Book of that date and I have no memory with reference to it.

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-400" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-400" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-400" type="surname" value="STEWART"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-400" type="given" value="ROBERT"/>ROBERT STEWART</persName> </hi>. I am Procurator Fiscal in Edinburgh—I discharge the duties of public prosecutor for the County of Edinburgh—I should receive in ordinary course reports made by police officers in respect of some matters that are intended to be prosecuted—I produce a warrant against Wm. Anderson, Henry Williams, Harry Street, and Lawrence Eustace, in May, 1873, I think, there was a communication from Meiklejohn to Grollan, an officer in the service at Scotland—in August I received this letter from Gollan. (
<hi rend="italic">This was from Meiklejohn to Gollan dated 25th August</hi>, 1873,
<hi rend="italic">stating that Anderson, Williams, and Street were well known to him; that Williams'8 right name was Murray, and requesting tit Fiscal to send the warrant by some one who knew the men.</hi>)

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-401" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-401" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-401" type="surname" value="NEALE"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-401" type="given" value="RICHARD"/>RICHARD NEALE</persName> </hi>. I am a clerk in the office at Scotland Yard, and was so in October, 1876—Henry Wilson is my fellow-clerk—we were the only two clerks in the office in October, 1876—I heard a talk about a letter being missing—I opened no letter on 26th October—I did not open a letter from the Police-office at Leeds referring to the cashing of a Clydesdale bank-note in Leeds—we keep a diary, it is my duty to keep it—the 26th October was Thursday—on that day Druscovich was attendance officer in the morning—there is an entry in this other book, called the entry-book, in my writing, which shows that Druscovich was there attending the office that morning—Mr. Clarke would have been in charge that morning, only he was at the Central Criminal Court on Von Howard's trial; when he returned from that he would resume charge of the office; it was the second or third day of Von Howard's trial, I think the morning of his sentence—he was convicted of some fraud.

<hi rend="italic">Cross-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. BESLEY</hi>. I and Wilson make entries in this entry book—the officers make their own entries—the red ink figures are references to the case book—the officers put down their own cases upon which they are engaged, and by the red-ink figures you can tell what the cases are—I find, looking at that, that on 10th November Palmer was engaged in reference to some incendiary fire at Waltham Abbey, and also with regard to some indecent prints—without going through the book I can't say whether Palmer had anything to do with the turf frauds; I have no memory with reference to it—when it says that Palmer was attending to a case, it means that he was away from the office.

<hi rend="italic">Cross-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. STRAIGHT</hi>. The numbers 1056 and 1035 relate to particular cases on which Druscovich was engaged; they were the cases of Percy Robinson and a man named Aublin—if he was out for an hour or an hour and a half, he would still be considered at the office.

<hi rend="italic">Cross-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. CLARKE</hi>. I believe Inspector Clarke attended to the Von Howard case all the way through—he was afterwards very much engaged and away from the office in the De Tourville case—he puts 852 as the number of that case—he never had charge of the De Goncourt case that I am aware of; if he had, the number of the case would be put against his name.

<hi rend="italic">Re-examined by</hi> the Attorney-General. Druscovich was in charge of that case—the numbers denote the cases the officers are engaged upon—"office" means attending the office—the names are put in rotation, the numbers come from the case book—1056 and 1035 relate to Druscovich's
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220193"/>
cases, he puts himself clown in his own handwriting—the red letters are my writing—when he came back to the office he would not speak to me about the cases, he would put it in the book, and from that book I make up the other—the entry "Percy Robinson, forgery and fraud," also "Aublin," is in Druscovich's writing, the "attending office "is mine—I should write that before Druscovich wrote "Percy Robinson"—he must have come to the office first—the only three persons who might have opened any letter on the 26th were myself, "Wilson, and the officer in charge—I never opened a letter without having authority to do so.

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-402" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-402" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-402" type="surname" value="MILES"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-402" type="given" value="EDWARD ARTHUR"/>EDWARD ARTHUR MILES</persName> </hi>. I am a clerk to Messrs. Smith, Payne, and Smith, bankers; on 4th October, 1876, this draft for 300
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. of the British Linen Company, payable to W. Medway was presented for payment, and paid in two notes of 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. each, Nos. 70516 and 70517, dated 28th January, and 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. in gold.

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-403" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-403" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-403" type="surname" value="WILLIAMS"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-403" type="given" value="CHARLES JOHN"/>CHARLES JOHN WILLIAMS</persName> </hi> (
<hi rend="italic">Re-examined</hi>). I produce two 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. notes, Nos. 70516 and 70517, dated 28th January,.1876, which were changed at the Bank of England on 4th October, 1876—the name of W. Medway appears on the notes as that of the person presenting them.

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-404" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-404" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-404" type="surname" value="PIONCHON"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-404" type="given" value="PIERRE"/>PIERRE PIONCHON</persName> </hi>. I am not now in a situation—I was formerly servant to Benson under the name of Yonge—I entered his service on 29th September, 1875—he was then at Rose Bank, Shanklin—I never came to London with him—he did not come to London himself in 1875—the first time I came to London with him was about 22nd or 23rd February, 1876—he came to London several times in 1876—I have been with him twice to the Langham Hotel, also to Nelson's Portland Hotel, and the Castle and Falcon—he stayed at the Langham in the name of G. H. Yonge—on 26th July we left for Paris, and afterwards went to Biarritz—we were there from 11th July until 17th or 18th—we were at Paris on the 19th—
<hi rend="italic">on</hi> the 26th June we left Shanklin and came to the Langham Hotel—we were talking about going to—Egypt at that time—we stayed at the Langham Hotel till 8th July, when we left for Paris
<hi rend="italic">via</hi> Dover—we only stayed one night in Paris—we went from there to Font
<lb/>arabia in Spain—we then went to Biarritz and from there to Paris, and stayed at the Hotel Vieuillemont—we then came back to London, and stayed two nights at Mr. Kurr's, 29, Marquess Villa, Marquess Road—I went there before Benson, with the luggage; he came about an hour or an hour and a half afterwards—we left Paris on the 26th, and arrived in London on the night of the 27th—we stayed two nights at Mr. Kurr's—I left there before Benson, and went to Dover—Benson came after me—we stayed at Dover six days—from there we came to London, to 28, Beresford Road, Mrs. Bruce's—I saw Kurr's brother come there, he was called Chapman at that time, and Bale, who was called Elliott, and Wm. Kurr also—we stayed at Mrs. Bruce's from the 3rd to the 10th August—we then went to Mrs. Ethel's, 55, Beresford Road—I saw many letters there written to French people—we remained there a fortnight, from the 10th to the 24th—Benson was visited at Mrs. Ethel's by the same persons and by Meiklejohn—on 19th August there was a dinner for three persons; Kurr came, Meiklejohn came rather late, the dinner had begun—at the end of the dinner he received a telegram, and went away soon after—we stayed at Mrs. Ethel's till 24th August—we then went to Mrs. Assy's 20, Newington Green Road—Benson was visited there by the two Kurrs
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220194"/>
Bale, and Mr. Price—I never went to 8, Northumberland Street—during the time we were at Mrs. Assy's, Benson usually went out in a brougham at nine o'clock in the morning—one night some gentlemen came for it Yonge—Mrs. Assy went down and asked who he was—Yonge had gone to bed, and I would not wake him up—the gentlemen threw some stones up at the window, and broke it—that was on September 27th—I did not see the persons, I declined to get up—I could not say who they were—a letter came from Kurr in the morning—on the 28th we left for Glasgow and stayed at Macrae's Hotel—I saw Bale and F. Kurr there—from Glasgow we returned to London to Mrs. Assy's—from there Benson went to Brighton with me—Clarke and Street came down to see him there—we went from the station to Mrs. Assy's when we returned from Glasgow separately—Benson had a four-wheel cab—I took a Hanson and a portmanteau, and got there a few minutes before Benson—I did Dot see the cab he got into—I saw the cab he came in—he did not drive up to the house, but got out about forty or fifty yards off—later on I was at Derby with him at the Midland Hotel—Meiklejohn came while we were there it was some time in the afternoon—we left on the same day for Matlock Bath—that was the 19th of October—I cannot tell how long Meiklejohn was with Benson at Derby, because he went to a private room—at Mat-lock I saw Kurr and Meiklejohn—Meiklejohn and his wife dined with Benson on Sunday night, and left the same evening in a two-horse carriage—we remained at Matlock Bath about a fortnight—Benson went away several times
<hi rend="italic">to Derby</hi>, and I posted several telegrams to Meiklejohn at Derby—Kurr came to see Benson at Matlock, and had No. I room—we afterwards left and went to the King's Cross Hotel of the Great Northern Railway—we went from King's Cross to the Bridge of Allan, where I saw Kurr, Street, Meiklejohn, and a gentleman whose name I do not know—ultimately I went to America, from whence I telegraphed to Kurr in the name of Benson—I took two letters with me to send from America to England, one for Mr. Price and one for Mr. Shanks Brook—I sent the telegram for Mr. Price from the Great Western Compagnie Royal—in March, 1876, I saw Clarke at 3, Bentinck Street, Cavendish Square—Mr. Yonge had a sitting-room there on the first floor and my bedroom was on the second floor; and as I was coming downstairs I saw Clarke coming out of the sitting-room, going out—I do not know Palmer or Druscovich—I heard Druscovich's name at Bridge of Allan, that is all.

<hi rend="italic">Cross-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. WILLIAMS</hi>. I had no idea of the real character of my master at that time, I only knew after my return from America—I was engaged by Benson at Zurich, in Switzerland, where he went by the name of Yonge—he said he was the Count de Montagu, but he did not use that name—I also knew him as the Count de Montago—he told me why he changed his name, and said something about Mr. Andrews—I was serving a man who I supposed to be an honest person, and yet I knew him by three different names.

<hi rend="italic">Re-examined.</hi> He did not tell me why he took those names.

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-405" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-405" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-405" type="surname" value="PHIPPS"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-405" type="given" value="THOMAS"/>THOMAS PHIPPS</persName> </hi>. I am a private constable of the Midland Railway Company—a part of my duty is to take the destination of cabs as they drive from St. Pancras station—I was on duty on the morning of 4th October—this is my book—on that morning at 8 o'clock there were two cabs, one booked Stoke Newington Green, and Stoke Newington—their numbers were 13 and 19—it was on the arrival of the Scotch train.
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220195"/>

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-406" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-406" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-406" type="surname" value="ROSE"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-406" type="given" value="ROBERT"/>ROBERT ROSE</persName> </hi>. I am driver of No. 13 four-wheel Midland Railway cab;. on—4th October I took a fare from St. Pancras, for Stoke Newington, at 8 a.m.—I did not go there as my horse fell lame going up Pentonville Hill; I called another cab, the number of which I do not know, and my fare got into it.

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-407" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-407" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-407" type="surname" value="BRENT"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-407" type="given" value="EDWARD"/>EDWARD BRENT</persName> </hi>. I am a cashier of the Bank of England—on 4th October, 1876, two 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>.;, notes, 70516 and 70517, were changed by a man who gave the name of Medway—I gave him 200 sovereigns—I should not know him again.

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-408" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-408" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-408" type="surname" value="STEWART"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-408" type="given" value="ROBERT"/>ROBERT STEWART</persName> </hi> (
<hi rend="italic">Cross-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. WILLIAMS</hi>). The proceedings against Philip Gardner and Co. lapsed because the authorities did not intend to prosecute the inquiries further—Gollan is still in the public ser
<lb/>vice there, but not in the same position he occupied at that time—he was then in the force, he is now a Sheriff's officer—he has not had his position altered since the evidence given in the De Goncourt frauds, it was long before—I called upon him to give a report with reference to the De Goncourt frauds, and he did so—his name came into prominence at the Bridge of Allan visit, and I consequently called upon him to make a report—he made a report, and is still retained in the public service—in November last a portmanteau belonging to Dr. Wilde was lost, in reference to which, Gollan was making inquiries, and Gollan informed me that Meiklejohn, in Ms capacity of railway officer, visited Edinburgh for the purpose of making inquiries.

<hi rend="italic">Re-examined by the</hi> Attorney-General. Gollan was an officer in my department in November last, but before that he was a detective officer in the police—I have made no further inquiry in reference to Gollan—I have dated his report November, 1876—I am waiting for the result of these proceedings—in the case of Gardner, the man had absconded from Edin
<lb/>burgh before the warrant was got—we got one man, named Eustace, who was admitted to bail—about four months afterwards there was a letter from Meiklejohn, which I have produced, and the evidence was not con
<lb/>sidered such as would warrant the apprehension of the men; no proceed
<lb/>ings were taken against Eustace, in consequence of the deficiency of the evidence; they were all included in one warrant; the original summons was not sent to London, but a communication was made to the local police all over the country, and to the London police, that the men were wanted, and the warrant was ready to be sent—excepting Eustace, we heard sotting of the other men beyond the letter of Meiklejohn.

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-409" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-409" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-409" type="surname" value="CLARKE"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-409" type="given" value="HENRY RICHARD"/>HENRY RICHARD CLARKE</persName> </hi>. I am principal of Shanklin College, Isle of Wight—I was acquainted with Benson, and let Rose Bank Cottage to him, which he occupied at Shanklin—I know of some letters and tele
<lb/>grams which have been produced which purport to be sent from Clarke to Benson—these letters and telegrams were at one time in my possession—the last time I saw Benson at the Langham Hotel he wished me to take some private papers of his back to Shanklin, but the contents I did not how—that was early in July, 1876—he was missing, and there were reports about him which caused me great uneasiness, and I went to his house, looked for all letters in it, took possession of them, and sent them to the address he gave, 324, Essex Road, addressed to Mr. Watson, but that was an error of mine, the name should have been Hawkins—that was on August 12, 1876—other letters which I found at Benson's I destroyed, in consequence of a communication which I received from him
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220196"/>
—a policy on Mr. Andrews' life was given up to the trustees in bank. ruptcy.

<hi rend="italic">Cross-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. CLARKE</hi>. Benson paid for a boy at my school—I was acquainted with him from January, 1874, to July, 1876 and during that time he never betrayed himself in word or action; he appeared to me to be a gentleman in every respect—amongst the documents which I found at Benson's house and destroyed there was a large number of letters; perhaps about 150—I destroyed them at Shanklin a week or ten days afterwards without seeing their contents—a few which I found afterwards I gave to Mr. Abrahams—my wife put them in a packet and sent them to me; I was in London then—the address at Essex Road was given me before I burnt the letters—I think the policies and some other papers were put on one side when I burnt the letters—the idea of a fraud never entered my mind.

<hi rend="italic">Re-examined by the</hi> Attorney-General. Before burning them I read them casually to see what they were about—the other papers were con
<lb/>cerning business—I cannot say why I reserved the letters, they were put on one side, there could be no motive, I think they got among other papers which were thought to be of no importance—if I had picked oat letters of Clarke I might have found others—I never saw Clarke till I saw him here—I think I must have got the address from Benson on 8th August, 1876, if that was Monday.

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-410" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-410" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-410" type="surname" value="ACKHURST"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-410" type="given" value="WILLIAM WEEKS"/>WILLIAM WEEKS ACKHURST</persName> </hi>. I am in the Solicitor's Department of the General Post-office—I sent on to the Solicitor of the Treasury the packet of letters addressed to Mr. Watson, 324, Essex Road, in this brown paper cover (
<hi rend="italic">produced</hi>)—it was sent to the solicitor's office from the secretary's office, who received it from the Dead Letter Office—I believe it was at their office about twelve months or rather more—the date on the envelope is illegible—I saw Mr. Hodgson open it, and could see several letters, but not what they were—I did not identify the contents.

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-411" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-411" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-411" type="surname" value="FLINTOFF"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-411" type="given" value="GEORGE"/>GEORGE FLINTOFF</persName> </hi>. I live at 8, Northumberland Street, Strand, and have been there about a year and a half—last August I let my offices to a firm who called themselves Brooks and Co., of Glasgow—they were taken by a person calling himself Chapman, who I afterwards found to be Frederick Kurr—the arrangement was made on 30th August, 1876, and the—agreement signed on 31st August, about 9 o'clock in the morning Benson, Frederick Kurr, William Kurr, Bale, and myself were present, but no one else—when they took possession we were asked to supply them with furniture, and they stayed there till about half-past five in the evening—I saw them all four
<hi rend="italic">from</hi> time to time during the day—they commenced business about 9 30 a.m, but being the first day I did not, take so much notice as afterwards what their hours were—I was residing there all the time—I believed it to be an advertising agency—I had not the slightest notion what was going on until three months after they left the premises—I saw no correspondence connected with the offices by Benson and Kurr—Benson came in a brougham and was taken away in a brougham, and another time in a cab—I saw quantities of letters go by the post, but I only recollect one letter coming all the time they were there—they left on 26th September, about 2.30 p.m.—I had no notice that they were going to leave—on 30th December I went to Marlborough Street Police-court, and swore an information in the magistrate's private room, and on the next night I was taken to the police station at Islington
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220197"/>
and found "William Kurr there—I identified Mm without the slightest doubt—on January 1, about ten minutes before Wo, I went to Marl-borough Street Police-court, and while I was standing at the door Stenning and Froggatt approached me, Stenning walked on—Froggatt re
<lb/>mained in the front of the Court and made a signal that he wished to speak—I had seen Stenning at about 11 o'clock the same morning, and had had a conversation which resulted in my going to Scotland Yard, and also to the Treasury—Froggatt told me that he knew I was a witness about to give evidence in the case of Kurr, who had been apprehended on the Sunday previous, but he was a good fellow, that he was a Freemason in distress, and he asked me to assist him—I was a Freemason—I told him that Freemasonry was not intended to assist persons of that description, and that I could have nothing whatever to do with him—Froggatt said that he wished me to state that Kurr, whom I had identified the night before, was the wrong man—I told him that Kurr being a very tall man, and rather remarkable in appearance, whom I had seen from day to day for nearly a month, it was almost an impossibility to make a mistake; that Stenning had asked me at 11 o'clock that same morning to do the same thing, and had offered me any reasonable amount of money if I would do so; that I had declined his offer, and had communicated what had taken place to the Detective Department at Scotland Yard, and that I had been sent from Scotland Yard to the Treasury to state what had occurred there also—he said "Oh, never mind that, he is a good fellow, you must try and help him"—this conversation was in the street, a few yards from the doors of the police-court—just at that juncture Mr. Abrahams, a solicitor, passed with Superintendent Williamson—I followed Mr. Abrahams immediately into the Court, and Froggatt came after us—before I saw Mr. Abrahams and Mr. Williamson, Froggatt had asked me to accompany him to his office in Argyle Street—I said to him "I can go to no office, I do not even
<hi rend="italic">how</hi> who you are"—I never asked him his name, I had never seen him before—before he followed me into the Court he told me he would pay me' money to comply with his request, but mentioned no specific sum then—when he followed me into the Court the magistrate had not arrived, and he laid hold of my shoulder, and said "I want to speak to you, come along this passage;" that passage I afterwards found led from the Court to the gaoler's room, and the cells connected with the police-court—in that passage he said "I have instructed George Lewis to defend Kurr, let me go and tell him that you cannot identify Kurr, and for doing this I will give you 50
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>."—I said "This is impossible," and I left him and went into the Court—I saw Mr. Froggatt in conversation with Mr. George Lewis, and before Kurr had been brought into the dock, Mr. Lewis stated to the Magistrate that Kurr, he believed, had not been identified, and he wished to know whether it was so or not—the magistrate said "Let the prisoner to brought in, and we will see whether he can be identified"—Kurr was then brought in and I at once identified him—during the evidence given by the officers as to the time and. mode of Kurr's arrest, one of them stated that an attempt at rescue had been made by a person then in court, sitting immediately behind the prisoner in the dock—Mr. Newton, the magistrate, ordered him to sit on one side until he had heard the case out—ultimately Stenning was taken in charge, and evidence was given against him about his interview with me in the morning, and attempting to bribe me—afterwards a representation was made
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220198"/>
against me by Mr. Froggatt—I was before the magistrate four or five times, but was never asked a single question as to money being offered—on none of these occasions did Mr. Froggatt ever suggest anything of the kind—I was afterwards examined as a witness against Stenning; I believe Mr. Froggatt appeared for him at the police-court, but am not quite sure—I know that no such question as that was ever suggested against me, or put to me in cross-examination—after I had given evidence against Stenning, and after his conviction, I was served with a summons charging me with perjury—this is the summons dated 9th February—I appeared in pursuance of that summons—the case was before the magistrate on two occasions—on the first occasion Mr. Montagu Williams opened the case, and when he had done so it was adjourned till the following Wednesday, or about six days after, and the case was dismissed.

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-412" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-412" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-412" type="surname" value="DAVIE"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-412" type="given" value="JOSEPH"/>JOSEPH DAVIE</persName> </hi>. I am clerk at Guildhall Police Court, and was present on 15th February on the hearing of the charge of perjury against Flin
<lb/>off—I was also present on 21st February, and took notes—Mr. Froggatt, the now defendant, was examined as a witness, and cross-examined both on the 15th and 21st. (
<hi rend="italic">The depositions were then read.</hi>)

<hi rend="italic">Cross-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. COLLINS</hi>. I did not take down every word that Mr. Froggatt said, but what I thought material to the charge, which was the perjury by Flintoff—something was said about a journey to Scotland, that, of course, being included in the costs to be incurred.

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-413" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-413" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-413" type="surname" value="FLINTOFF"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-413" type="given" value="GEORGE"/>GEORGE FLINTOFF</persName> </hi> (
<hi rend="italic">continued</hi>). I have heard the evidence read which I heard given against me by Froggatt—there is not a single word of truth in the suggestion that I sent my wife to him, nor in the evidence which has been read, from beginning to end, except the fact that we did meet in the street; and I should never have spoken at all, but he took an advantage, and gave me a masonic sign—I treat the notion with utter contempt.

<hi rend="italic">Cross-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. COLLINS</hi>. I first knew that the gentleman I was speaking to was Mr. Froggatt when I went into the Court and Mr. Abra
<lb/>hams told me so—I never asked him his name—I never said that at the door of the Marlborough Street Police Court Stenning introduced me to Mr. Froggatt—Stenning did not speak, but slunk away like a dog—I saw Stenning on two occasions, first, when he passed up the street, and saw me standing there, he went up Argyle Street, and in ten minutes he came down again accompanied by another person, whom I afterwards found out to be Froggatt, and who came to the Court door—Stenning had pre
<lb/>yiously seen me; he walked on; Froggatt beckoned to me, and said he wanted to speak to me—he was introduced to me in the way I have described—Stenning never opened his mouth to me about Froggatt—I told Froggatt that Stenning had been to me, and I had been to Scotland Yard an hour and a half afterwards, and also to the Treasury—after that he offered me 50
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>.; it was in a passage—I walked in at the door a couple of yards, and when I found what he was proposing to do I came out far quicker than I went in—I did not go into the cells, but into the passage—I heard Mr. Froggatt give his account of what took place with regard to the masonic sign—every word of it was false—I did not know a word about him when he made me this offer—I did not ask Stenning his name, or him either—I would not waste time with a man who tried to tempt me to do such a dishonourable thing—when Mr. Abrahams told me his
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220199"/>
name, he told me also that he had rebuked him for tampering with his client, and Mr. Froggatt denied it—it was, perhaps, half an hour after I vent into Court before I knew what his name was—I did not see Mr. Lewis at the time I was talking to Froggatt—I was cross-examined once, I think, at Bow Street; Mr. Williams cross-examined me in Stenning's case—I was also cross-examined by Mr. Serjeant Parry at the trial of Benson and Kurr—it was not about the alleged interview with me and Mr. Froggatt (
<hi rend="italic">The witness's deposition was read to him</hi>)—on the 10th, when. I was further examined, I said "I did not know Mr. Froggatt before I was introduced to him"—the prisoner (that is, Henry Stenning) said to him, "This is Mr. Flintoff"—I was introduced in that name—I did not know Froggatt's name; I did not know who he was—Stenning spoke in a loud tone to somebody who I afterwards found to be Froggatt—Sten
<lb/>ning did not say a word to me—I said it was my usage as a professional man to ask for a fee before I entered upon any duty whatever—I was not alluding particularly to the case; I was alluding to my practice as an engineer—at the trial of Stenning I said "I do not walk outside my door without something to fall back upon; I should require 5
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. to come out
<lb/>side my door to see you"—I
<hi rend="italic">very likely</hi> said "I did not care a straw about furthering the ends of justice, and do not now"—that was because I knew that justice would take care of itself; it had done so before our time, and would after—I have read the reports and find them very imper
<lb/>fect—I never said that I was entitled to something, or "I live in hopes"—I sent in a bill to Messrs. Abrahams for expenses, 34
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. or 36
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>.—I was paid a guinea a day for my time and what I spent—my expenses were 22
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>., so I did not get much out of it—I have to eat and drink as you have, and live and pay travelling expenses;. besides, I had to be carried into Court on the backs of persons, because I was suffering from gout—I was paid 34
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>.—neither I nor my wife or family have ever received one farthing for this trial—about six weeks after Benson and his party had left, someone came to the door of my place and asked if I had heard any
<lb/>thing about Brooks and Co.—I said "I have made several inquiries about them"—he said "Yes, it is a pity to give you trouble; I will leave you a sovereign to drink Brooks' health"—I took it—I have been an engineer and lectured on gas-lighting since 3rd October, 1851—I was not connected with the Eupion Company, or any speculative gas compa
<lb/>nies—I formed the Sheffield Company in 1861—I have lectured in 200 towns in England, Scotland, and Ireland, and have never offended against the laws of my country—the only case against me was in the carrying out of this scheme, in which I lost my money—I was bankrupt in Ply-mouth in 1863, but did no dishonourable conduct—it is a very respect-able thing to be bankrupt—my liabilities were not 3,000
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>.—
<hi rend="italic">if you show</hi> any dishonourable conduct on my part, it does not matter to me—I never tad 30
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. or 40
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. worth of property put into a room for me—I have not been a bankrupt ten or twelve times, nor yet three times—I have been a bankrupt or liquidated in 1845, 1850, 1859, 1864, 1867, 1871, and 1872—I was arrested for a debt in 1859, but I never in my life made an assign
<lb/>ment for the benefit of my creditors—when I was bankrupt in 1864 I did not owe a shilling—I made a composition in 1866, because the last bank
<lb/>ruptcy was done improperly—I have compounded twice; I cannot tell you the dates—I have done all that the law required—I had 120
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. liabilities, and my creditors met and agreed to a composition, and it was paid—that
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220200"/>
is all I know about it—I cannot say whether I filed a petition in bank
<lb/>ruptcy in 1872; it was much the same process—there has been no liquid
<lb/>dation and no bankruptcy since 1872.

<hi rend="italic">Re-examined by the</hi> Solicitor-General. There has never been any charge against me of criminal misconduct—I have never been in a Court of law in my whole life—I was bankrupt in 1843; I was young, and was foolishly induced to bring out a weekly newspaper, and I failed—I am now in my 59th year—I had not capital to carry it on—my estate yielded about 688
<hi rend="italic">d</hi>. in the pound, and alter that I started in business in Fleet Street as a bookseller, and while I was there I was articled to Mr. Groves, of the City of London Gas Works, and under the advice of Dr. Andrew Ure, who was experimenting upon gas, I entered into articles with him, and ever since 3rd October, 1851, I have been practising that business, and have been engaged by over a dozen principal Corporations in Eng-ltnd, Scotland, and Ireland in improving gas, but with no juggle, no speculative scheme, merely showing how gas companies could get larger profits, and sell the article better, and I have succeeded—I never had anything to do with the Eupion or any dishonest company in my life—in 1864 I had signed a bill of exchange with a company of which I was the founder; one-third of the shares were sold, and 680
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. was owing to me tor salary, and 4,000
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. for drawing the specification—the company collapsed, and I lost the 680
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. and the expenses, and having signed a bill of exchange for 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. I was arrested, and had to go through the bank
<lb/>ruptcy court, but I did not owe a shilling of personal liabilities—the next time was in consequence of being mixed up with the gas company in reducing the price of gas in London, and it saved London 800,000
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. per annum—Mr. Froggatt did not know me, and he stated so in his evidence—I saw him just outside Marlborough Street Police Court, and Stenning with him—I had seen Stenning that morning—it was after Stenning and Froggatt had been together that Froggatt spoke to me—I know no other means by which Froggatt would know who I was, except through Stenning—I heard him mention my name, and it was after that he came and spoke to me—that was the only introduction I had—I knew that when the depositions were read to me—all these depositions are exceedingly vague, they don't give question and answer; the clerk takes down what he thinks is the effect of the evidence.

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-414" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-414" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-414" type="surname" value="BOYD"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-414" type="given" value="JOHN"/>JOHN BOYD</persName> </hi>. I am superintendent of the City of Glasgow police—on 4th October, 1876, a letter signed by Inspector Clarke was received by Superintendent Browne, and handed to me to be attended to—in conse
<lb/>quence of that letter I caused inquiries to be made that morning in Glas
<lb/>gow, and I telegraphed to Scotland Yard the same day the result of my inquiries—Drubcovich telegraphed that afternoon that he would leave for Glasgow, and he arrived the following morning, the 5th—I saw him, and in talking over the case, I said if he had sent a telegram instead of the letter we would have had Benson, or Coster, as he called himself—he said it was after bank hours before he received the necessary informa
<lb/>tion, and that was the reason no telegram was sent.

<hi rend="italic">Cross-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. STRAIGHT</hi>. The banks at Glasgow close for business at three o'clock, but they are generally to be found in the banks until four o'clock—the police can get admittance to the bank at four o'clock—I have never been examined as a witness in this case before Drug covich came in shortly before ten on the morning of the 5th—I had
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220201"/>
perhaps a quarter of an hour's talk with him—I had been to the bank, and afterwards saw the bank secretary on the day of sending the telegram, and I had been to McCrae's hotel, where Benson was staying, and I found the cabman who drove him—this is my telegram to Druscovich. (
<hi rend="italic">Read</hi>: "2.45, 4th October, from Superintendent Browne to Superintendent Williamson, Scotland Yard. Coster gives his address 12, Rue Pellettier, Paris—lodged notice referred to in yesterday's letter, on several occasions since Friday at Clydesdale branch of the bank, got 10,000
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. in his favour, got payment in 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. notes Clydesdale bank; numbers unknown; he with others supposed left last night nine o'clock for London, Midland route. Coster about 37, thin, large bushy black moustache, diamond studs and rings, gentlemanly appearance, looks like a Frenchman.") That was what I sent on the 4th at 3.15 as the result of my inquiries.

<hi rend="italic">Re-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. GORST</hi>. I sent my information by telegram, and not by letter—it was followed by a letter, of course.

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-415" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-415" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-415" type="surname" value="PORTER"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-415" type="given" value="JOHN"/>JOHN PORTER</persName> </hi>. I am a cabman, and drive a Hansom cab—at the end of the year 1876 I was working at a stand in Islington, and I used to drive a person whom I now know to be William Kurr—on two occasions I drove
<hi rend="italic">him</hi> in the autumn of last year to South Lambeth Road, and put him down at the farther end of the road, near the Clapham Road—I do not remember what day of the week it was—I remember driving him to Westminster one day, in the evening—I drove to the corner of Great College Street, where I set him down—he walked down Great College Street on the near side—I waited for him about half an hour—I took him back to 29, Marquess Road after that—I took him to the same place about a fortnight afterwards in the evening—I waited for him from half to three-quarters of an hour, and afterwards drove him back to Marquess Road—I drove him to South Lambeth Road before driving him to College Street.

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-416" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-416" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-416" type="surname" value="WOLFE"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-416" type="given" value="GEORGE"/>GEORGE WOLFE</persName> </hi>. I was a clerk in Meiklejohn's office at Derby last year—I remember a telegram coming for him which I opened—it was shortly after he came down to Derby with his family—(
<hi rend="italic">Mr. Cowie called for the telegram, but it was not produced</hi>)—I opened it and read it, and then gave it to Meiklejohn—the name of the sender of the telegram was Gifford, and it was sent from the Charing Cross office—I asked Meikle
<lb/>john if I should reply to it, and he said "No"—I remember a person calling to see Meiklejohn on that day—he gave the name of Gifford—it was about one o'clock—Meiklejohn was not in—he returned to the office about three o'clock, and saw Gifford; they shook hands together—I do not know that Gifford is the same person as "William Kurr—I have not seen the convict Kurr—Meiklejohn and Gifford went out of the office together, leaving me there.

<hi rend="italic">Cross-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. WILLIAMS</hi>. It was a common thing for me to open telegrams addressed to Meiklejohn—there was no secret about it—Meiklejohn did not mention to me that he expected some information about a robbery—there were many investigations about robberies on the line.

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-417" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-417" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-417" type="surname" value="HOLE"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-417" type="given" value="CHARLES"/>CHARLES HOLE</persName> </hi>. I am a detective policeman stationed at the Midland Station at Manchester—I met Meiklejohn by appointment on the 26th October last year at Manchester—he came in by the train from Derby—he said he had come with a friend as far as Matlock, who had got out there, having come with him from London on the previous evening and
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220202"/>
breakfasted with him that morning—he asked me where he could chance a 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. Scotch note, and I told him I did not exactly know—we went in search of a place, and ultimately found Mr. Nash's, in King Street—Meiklejohn went in by himself, and when he came out he said, "What b—y fools they are"—I said, "Why, sir?"—he replied, "Because they asked me my name, and I gave them some name in London"—I forget now what it was; but it was not his own.

<hi rend="italic">Cross-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. WILLIAMS</hi>. He told me this without my asking him any questions—he was laughing, and said it in a chaffing kind of way—he said, "I have had some transactions with my brother about some property, and I want to change a 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. note"—he said that on the journey before he went in to Mr. Nash's, and then he came out laughing.

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-418" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-418" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-418" type="surname" value="NASH"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-418" type="given" value="THOMAS BENNETT"/>THOMAS BENNETT NASH</persName> </hi>. I am a banker at 82, King Street, Manchester—on 20th October last Meiklejohn came to change a 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. Scotch note—he said he had a 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. Clydesdale bank note and he wanted cash for it—I asked him if he was travelling—he said he was—I asked him for his name and address, and he gave "J. Turner, Piccadilly, London"—I gave him cash for the note—I have a note of the number of it, "A C, 302," which I took at the time.

<hi rend="italic">Cross-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. WILLIAMS</hi>. I charged him 7
<hi rend="italic">s</hi>. 6
<hi rend="italic">d</hi>. for changing it—I paid him the full amount in Bank of England notes.

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-419" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-419" type="gender" value="female"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-419" type="surname" value="HALLAM"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-419" type="given" value="EMMA"/>EMMA HALLAM</persName> </hi>. I am a waitress at the New Bath Hotel, Matlock Baths—I remember a gentleman staying at our hotel with his French valet on 20th October last year—I now know him to be the convict Benson—he frequently went to Derby by train—a lady and gentleman came to dine with him on Sunday, 22nd October—I can't say who the gentleman was—I waited upon them—I did not hear the gentleman say where he had come from.

<hi rend="italic">Thursday, November 6th.</hi> 

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-420" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-420" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-420" type="surname" value="CARR"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-420" type="given" value="HENRY"/>HENRY CARR</persName> </hi>. I am superintendent of the detective police of the Mid
<lb/>land Railway at Derby—in October, 1876, I was chief inspector of the same department—Meiklejohn came to take charge of the office in September—I knew the convict Benson by sight, and I saw him several times with Meiklejohn in September, 1876—he then passed by the name of Yonge—he came into the office; and, if Meiklejohn was there at the time, he got up and went out with him—when Meiklejohn was out Yonge simply said, "Tell him Mr. Yonge called:" and I reported this to Meikle
<lb/>john when he returned—I remember Meiklejohn saying that he first met Yonge at Melbourne, when he went out there on a case, and that some. time after his return home he met him at the Langham Hotel, London—Meiklejohn told me that he was a perfect gentleman, that he frequently dined with the Lord Mayor, and attended his banquets—at that time he was staying at Matlock—Meiklejohn told me one morning in October, last year, that he and his wife had gone to Matlock the previous day, which would be Sunday, that they had driven over there, and had a "champagne dinner" with Mr. Yonge—in the course of my business at Derby I had to open telegrams when Meiklejohn was absent—during his absence on one occasion I opened a telegram purporting to come from a person named "Gifford," London—I cannot fix the date—the purport of it was: "I leavo here by such a train. Meet me at Derby"—when I handed that telegram to Meiklejohn I said, "Here is a telegram from Gifford—who
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220203"/>
is Gifford?"—he said, "He is a friend of mine"—I said "Oh, I thought it was a business telegram"—Meiklejohn went away from Derby that day—he went by the 5.15 train to London—I went to Leeds with Meikle
<lb/>john on the 24th October to introduce him to the officers of the depart
<lb/>ment there—I introduced him to Detective Blagg—at Leeds Meiklejohn said, "Do you know, Mr. Carr, where I can change a 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. Scotch bank-none? "—I said, "No, I don't, but perhaps Mr. Blagg does"—I asked Blagg, and he said he thought he did—we all three went together to Mr. Cowborough's, a wine and spirit merchant, who changed the note.

<hi rend="italic">Cross-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. WILLIAMS</hi>. I know Derby well—there are no money-changers at Derby—in the ordinary course of business at Derby if Meiklejohn was away when telegrams arrived I would open them—I did open them—there was no secrecy about the telegrams.

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-421" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-421" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-421" type="surname" value="BLAGG"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-421" type="given" value="JOHN"/>JOHN BLAGG</persName> </hi>. I am employed in the detective department of the Mid
<lb/>land Railway at Leeds—I met Carr and Meiklejohn at Leeds on 24th October last year, Meiklejohn gave me a Clydesdale bank-note for 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>.—I took it to Mr. Cowborough's, made a communication to him, and after
<lb/>wards went with Meiklejohn to him, when he handed over the change to Meiklejohn.

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-422" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-422" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-422" type="surname" value="COWBOROUGH"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-422" type="given" value="HENRY"/>HENRY COWBOROUGH</persName> </hi>. I am a wine merchant at Leeds—on the 24th October last year I changed a 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. Scotch note for Meiklejohn.

<hi rend="italic">Cross-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. WILLIAMS</hi>. Meiklejohn gave me his card with Ms own name on it—"Meiklejohn, Superintendent of the Detective Department, Midland Railway, Derby."

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-423" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-423" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-423" type="surname" value="LEWIS"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-423" type="given" value="MORGAN"/>MORGAN LEWIS</persName> </hi>. I am a detective officer, and clerk in the detective department of the Leeds police—on the 25th October last year I wrote a letter and addressed it to Superintendent Williamson, Detective Depart
<lb/>ment, Scotland Yard, London—I wrote it by the instructions of Mr. Henderson, and posted it—I kept a copy of it. (
<hi rend="italic">The letter was called for, but was not produced.</hi>)

<hi rend="smallCaps">SUPERINTENDENT WILLIAMSON</hi> (
<hi rend="italic">re-examined</hi>). Search has been made at Scotland Yard for a letter addressed to myself by Superintendent Hender
<lb/>son, of the Leeds police, and dated Leeds, Oct. 25, but no such letter has been found—I was not in London on the 26th October—the officer in charge of the office at the time would open any letters addressed to me.

<hi rend="italic">Cross-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. STRAIGHT</hi>. I am often considered to be on duty at the office, when I am in fact absent attending to matters of business at the courts—on the occasion when I was attending at the Bow Street Police-court, I was considered to be in charge of the office—nominally I was in charge of the office, when I was in fact away three or four hours at a time—in that case the letters or telegrams would be opened by one of the clerks, or by the officer in charge.

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-424" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-424" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-424" type="surname" value="LEWIS"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-424" type="given" value="MORGAN"/>MORGAN LEWIS</persName> </hi> (
<hi rend="italic">re-examined</hi>). I have a press copy of the letter which was sent. (
<hi rend="italic">Read</hi>: "25th Oct., 1876. Sir,—I am directed by the Chief Constable to inform you that we have warned all the bankers, &c., of the 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. notes mentioned in your bill of the 23rd inst. All that we have been able to ascertain up to the present is that yesterday a Clydesdale bank note for 100
<hi rend="italic">l</hi>. was paid by Mr. Cow borough, a wine merchant here, into the Yorkshire Company's Bank. Mr. Cowborough states that he re
<lb/>ceived that note from Mr. Meiklejohn, superintendent at the Midland Railway."

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-425" type="witnessName">
<interp inst="t18771022-name-425" type="gender" value="male"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-425" type="surname" value="POYSER"/>
<interp inst="t18771022-name-425" type="given" value="WILLIAM"/>WILLIAM POYSER</persName> </hi>. I am the landlord of the Pine Apple, Leverton
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="187710220204"/>
Street, Kentish Town—I recollect on the Friday or Saturday of New
<lb/>market race week last year some gentlemen coming into my private bar it was the October race meeting—I should not like to swear that any of the prisoners at the bar were among them—I fancy I have seen those two (Froggatt and Druscovich)—I had never seen them before, nor have 1 since—they were conversing, and I heard the word "Newmarket" mentioned, and while serving them I said "Have you been to New
<lb/>market?" They said "No, the new cattle market." I then said "I ask your pardon"—I could see I was not wanted—my attention has never been called to this till last Friday—my house is near the Midland Station, the first turning on the left up the Layton Road in Leverton Street, and my house is the only public-house in the street.

<hi rend="italic">Cross-examined by</hi>
<hi rend="smallCaps">MR. STRAIGHT</hi>. I have read some portions of the newspaper reports of this case—I saw what Kurr said about my plate, and that he said it was at the first turning on the left up the Layton Road—that is the fact—I saw his evidence in the papers.

<hi rend="smallCaps">
<persName id="t18771022-name-426" type="witnessName">
<interp inst

The Proceedings of the Old Bailey

London's Central Criminal Court, 1674 to 1913

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