<!-- © 2003-2008 Old Bailey Proceedings Online -->
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<p>47.
<persName id="t17951202-48-defend622" type="defendantName"> JOHN WEBB
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<interp inst="t17951202-48-defend622" type="age" value="38"/> </persName> and
<persName id="t17951202-48-defend624" type="defendantName"> JOHN TAYLOR
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<interp inst="t17951202-48-defend624" type="age" value="36"/> </persName> were indicted for
<rs id="t17951202-48-off254" type="offenceDescription">
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<interp inst="t17951202-48-off254" type="offenceSubcategory" value="grandLarceny"/> feloniously stealing four gallons of rum, value 3l. </rs> the property of
<persName id="t17951202-48-victim625" type="victimName"> John Chatfield
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<interp inst="t17951202-48-victim625" type="given" value="John"/>
<interp inst="t17951202-48-victim625" type="gender" value="male"/> </persName> ,
<persName id="t17951202-48-victim626" type="victimName"> William Chatfield
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<interp inst="t17951202-48-victim626" type="given" value="William"/>
<interp inst="t17951202-48-victim626" type="gender" value="male"/> </persName> , and
<persName id="t17951202-48-victim627" type="victimName"> Robert Chatfield
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<interp inst="t17951202-48-victim627" type="gender" value="male"/> </persName> ,
<rs id="t17951202-48-cd255" type="crimeDate">November 28</rs>
<join result="offenceCrimeDate" targOrder="Y" targets="t17951202-48-off254 t17951202-48-cd255"/>.(The case was opened by Mr. Knapp.)</p>
<p>
<persName id="t17951202-48-person628"> RICHARD BUNCE
<interp inst="t17951202-48-person628" type="surname" value="BUNCE"/>
<interp inst="t17951202-48-person628" type="given" value="RICHARD"/>
<interp inst="t17951202-48-person628" type="gender" value="male"/> </persName> sworn.</p>
<p>(The witness cried.) - Q. What is the reason of your being frightened; is there any reason for it? - A. I dont know that there is. I am a carpenter by trade, and live with my father, No. 49, in the Little Minories.</p>
<p>
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="179512020071"/>Q. Do you know Messrs. Chatsield's cellar, in
<placeName id="t17951202-48-crimeloc256">Sheepy-yard</placeName>
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<join result="offencePlace" targOrder="Y" targets="t17951202-48-off254 t17951202-48-crimeloc256"/>? - A. Yes; on Saturday I saw Taylor, Mr. Chatsield's
<rs id="t17951202-48-deflabel257" type="occupation">servant</rs>
<join result="persNameOccupation" targOrder="Y" targets="t17951202-48-defend624 t17951202-48-deflabel257"/>, open the door and go in.</p>
<p>Q. Don't be frightened, there is nothing to frighten you? - A. Perhaps there will be.</p>
<p>Q. Had Taylor any light? - A. No; it was between three and four in the afternoon; on his going into the cellar, I went and told Wade, the other witness, as I was ordered to do; I returned to the cellar, and Wade followed me; I then saw a man, with a basket on his shoulder, come out of the cellar that Taylor had gone into.</p>
<p>Q. How long was that after Taylor went in? - A. About eight minutes, not longer.</p>
<p>Q. Do you know who that man was? - A. Yes; the other prisoner that stands by Taylor.</p>
<p>Q. What makes you so frightened? -
<persName id="t17951202-48-person629"> A.
<interp inst="t17951202-48-person629" type="given" value="A."/>
<interp inst="t17951202-48-person629" type="gender" value="indeterminate"/> </persName> Because I am brought here to condemn these men.</p>
<p>Q. Wade was with you? - A. Yes; we followed him into the Minories, and the constable took him into custody, and took him to the Fountain public-house; we searched the basket, and found a large bladder in it.</p>
<p>Q. What was in the bladder? - A. According to the smell of it, it was rum; it smelt very strong; Wade took him to the Compter: I left them at St. Mary-Axe, because I wanted to go back to my business.</p>
<p>Q. Are you sure there was but one bladder? - A. I am not certain; I did but just look into the basket.</p>
<p>Q. You had seen Taylor before? - A. Yes.</p>
<p>Q. You are sure it was he that went into the cellar? - A. Yes.</p>
<p>Q. You are sure the other man was Webb? - A. Yes.</p>
<p>Cross-examined by Mr. Ally. - Q. Who gave you instructions to come here and prosecute these men? - A. The constable; he gave me notice to attend at Mr. Knapp's house this afternoon.</p>
<p>Q. What were you doing at Mr. Knapp's house? - A. Nothing at all, but sitting there till I came here.</p>
<p>Q. On what business were you at Mr. Knapp's office; tell the truth; you must out with it? - A. I was waiting there till I was sent elsewhere; Mr. Wade ordered me to be there at half after four.</p>
<p>Q. Mr. Knapp is the attorney for this prosecution? - A. Yes.</p>
<p>Q. Upon your oath, what conversation had you there? - A. I had no conversation but with my mother, who was with me, and sat next me.</p>
<p>Q. What where you frightened about when you came into this court? - A. I was frightened to speak about these men.</p>
<p>Q. Upon your oath, what conversation had you with Mr. Knapp's clerk, about this prosecution? - A. When I came to the house, he said, come in and sit down; I had no conversation with him after I came in and sat down; I don't think a word passed after that.</p>
<p>Q. Who sent you to watch the prosecutor's cellar? - A. My father; he told me, if I saw any body go into the cellar, to tell Mr. Wade.</p>
<p>Q. You saw Taylor go into the cellar, and afterwards you saw the other man come out? - A. Yes.</p>
<p>Q. Then you did not see that man go in? - A. No; nor did I see Taylor come out; as soon as Taylor went into the cellar, I went to tell Wade.</p>
<p>Q. Then you don't know but this man took the basket with him into the cellar, which you saw him bring out? - A. No.</p>
<p>Court. Q. When Taylor went down into the cellar, had he a basket with him? - A. No; he had not.</p>
<p>Court. Q. Where did you dine to-day? - A. At my father's.</p>
<p>Court. Q. Have you had any liquor since dinner? - A. No.</p>
<p>
<persName id="t17951202-48-person630"> GEORGE WADE
<interp inst="t17951202-48-person630" type="surname" value="WADE"/>
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<interp inst="t17951202-48-person630" type="gender" value="male"/> </persName> sworn.</p>
<p>I am a constable: On the 28th of November, between two and three o'clock, in consequence of an information, I laid watch at Mr. Chatfield's cellar, in Sheepy-yard; I went with Bunce, the last witness, and saw the prisoner, Webb, come out of Mr. Chatfield's cellar, with this basket (producing it); he had it on his shoulder; I let him pass me, and followed him; I being a city constable, thought I had no power to stop him in the out-parts; I let him pass me till he got to George-street, which is in the city, there I stopped him, and asked
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="179512020072"/>him what he had got there; he informed me he had got a little rum; I asked him where he was going to carry it to; he said, the Lamb and Flag, Crutched-friars; he said, if I would take care of the rum for him, he would go and fetch a person to give him a good character; I took him to the Fountain; he said, he would leave the rum in my possession, if I would let him go and fetch a person from Tower-hill, to pass his word for his appearance; I left the rum with Mr. Crump, the landlord of the house, and took him to the Compter; I then went to Mr. Chatfield's house, and told him I had taken a person with some rum, which I supposed was his property; that I had left it at the Fountain, and taken him to the Compter; I found Taylor at Mr. Chatfield's, and took charge of him; he did not say any thing; I took him to the Compter; I went in the afternoon to the Fountain, Mr. Crump's, and took the property I had left there to Mr. Chatfield's, it was the same I had left, and the same that I took from the prisoner Webb.</p>
<p>Q. Did it contain the same things it contained before? - A. Yes; two bladders of rum. I attended the magistrates on the Monday; as I was taking Webb to the Compter, he said, he was taken in for the take of a few shillings; Taylor did not say any thing.</p>
<p>Cross-examined by Mr. Ally. Q. You saw Webb come out of the cellar? - A. Yes; I did not see him go in.</p>
<p>Q.Therefore you cannot tell in what manner he went in, nor what he took into the cellar? - A. No.</p>
<p>Q. For ought you know he took that into the cellar, and brought it out again? - A. I cannot say.</p>
<p>Q. This basket lay some time at the public-house? - Yes; I suppose half an hour.</p>
<p>Q. You had not opened these bladders? - No.</p>
<p>Q. Therefore the contents of them might have been changed, for any thing you know? - A. No.</p>
<p>Q. It was out of your possession half an hour? - A. Yes.</p>
<p>Q. The prisoner Taylor said nothing to you when you took him up? - A. No.</p>
<p>Mr. Knapp. Q. Had they the appearance of being the same bladders that were in the basket before? - A. I will swear it; I set a mark upon them; one of the bladders had burst, and run out a great quantity.</p>
<p>Q. Did you know what was contained in the bladders at all? - A. Yes; by the leaking of them, and putting my finger to it, and tasting it; and I tasted what laid upon the floor.</p>
<p>Court. Q. What did it taste like? - A. Very nice rum, my Lord.</p>
<p>Mr. Knapp. You were set to watch upon this cellar? - A. Yes.</p>
<p>Q. Was the cellar in a state of security? - A. It was when I first went round; there are two ways, and it was fastened secure.</p>
<p>Q. How was it afterwards? - A. I cannot say.</p>
<p>
<persName id="t17951202-48-person631"> ANN BUNCE
<interp inst="t17951202-48-person631" type="surname" value="BUNCE"/>
<interp inst="t17951202-48-person631" type="given" value="ANN"/>
<interp inst="t17951202-48-person631" type="gender" value="female"/> </persName> sworn.</p>
<p>I am the mother of
<persName id="t17951202-48-person632"> Richard Bunce
<interp inst="t17951202-48-person632" type="surname" value="Bunce"/>
<interp inst="t17951202-48-person632" type="given" value="Richard"/>
<interp inst="t17951202-48-person632" type="gender" value="male"/> </persName> ; I live in Sheepy-yard; I saw Wade and my son go past in a great hurry; I saw a man come out of the cellar with a parcel under his right arm, tied with a blue and white handkerchief; I saw another man come up from the same cellar with a bunch of keys in his hand.</p>
<p>Q. What time of the day? - A. As near as I can guess, it was after three o'clock.</p>
<p>Q. How long after Bunce and Wade were gone? - A. Not a minute.</p>
<p>Q. Should you know the person of the man that came up with the keys? - A. I did not take any particular notice of him.</p>
<p>Q. Look round the court, and see if you can see him? - A. I do not see him.</p>
<p>Q. Did you see the door looked? - A. No; he came strait up.</p>
<p>Q. Do you recollect how the man was dressed that had the keys? - A. He had a leather apron tied up to his breast, and a brown jacket, I believe; but I did not take particular notice; he went up Sheepy-yard, towards the Great Minories.</p>
<p>Cross-examined by Mr. Ally. - Q. This leathern apron is a common appendage to men in that line of business? - A. Yes.</p>
<p>Mr. Ally to Wade. - Q. You apprehended Taylor? - A. Yes.</p>
<p>Q. That was some time after the other prisoner was in custody? - A. Yes; I apprehended him at Mr. Chatfield's house.</p>
<p>Q. And that was some time after? - A. I suppose three-quarters of an hour.</p>
<p>
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="179512020073"/>Q. Might he not have gone away? - A. I look upon it he might.</p>
<p>Mr. Knapp. Q. How was the prisoner, Taylor, dressed? - A. In a leather apron, a brown jacket, and a hat; a common labouring dress.</p>
<p>Mr. Knapp to Richard Bunce. Q. How was the prisoner, Taylor, dressed, when he went into the cellar? - A. In a brown jacket, a leather apron, and a hat, with the brim cut round.</p>
<p>
<persName id="t17951202-48-person633"> JOHN CHATFIELD
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<interp inst="t17951202-48-person633" type="given" value="JOHN"/>
<interp inst="t17951202-48-person633" type="gender" value="male"/> </persName> sworn.</p>
<p>Q. What are the names of your partners? -
<persName id="t17951202-48-person634"> A. Robert Chatfield
<interp inst="t17951202-48-person634" type="surname" value="Robert Chatfield"/>
<interp inst="t17951202-48-person634" type="given" value="A."/>
<interp inst="t17951202-48-person634" type="gender" value="indeterminate"/> </persName> ,
<persName id="t17951202-48-person635"> John Chatfield
<interp inst="t17951202-48-person635" type="surname" value="Chatfield"/>
<interp inst="t17951202-48-person635" type="given" value="John"/>
<interp inst="t17951202-48-person635" type="gender" value="male"/> </persName> , and Wilham Chatfield.</p>
<p>Q. I do not expect you will be able to swear to the rum, but have you any samples of rum here? - A. Yes; I have a sample taken out of the bladder that was burst; I saw the vat made up, on Thursday last, myself to a particular strength; I took it out of the bladder that burst; it was about half gone.</p>
<p>Q. Is that the same sort of rum? - A. Exactly; I have tried it with the instrument; it is usual to let it alone for a week, that it may be perfectly fine; it is a store vat, and we never draw out of that, but for the wholesale trade.</p>
<p>Q. Do you use such bladders as these in the basket, now produced, in your trade? - A. Never.</p>
<p>Q. Was Taylor your servant at that time? - A. Yes.</p>
<p>Q. Had you given any orders to him to go, between the 26th and 28th of November, to this wholesale cellar? - A. No.</p>
<p>Q. Was any drawn from these vats to your knowledge? - A. No; nor by my orders.</p>
<p>Q. Have you examined the vats since? - A. I have examined the dip; there is a decrease of about sixteen gallons; in our dip we allow a little for the slow, which we reckon about two gallons; so that there is a decrease, I am positive, of fourteen gallons.</p>
<p>Q. Do you use such baskets as this? - A. No.</p>
<p>Q. Is three o'clock a usual time for your servants to go to this store cellar? - A. If they have orders so to do, but not else.</p>
<p>Q. Is it usual to take candles into this cellar, or go without candles? - A. It is not safe to work without candles; our cooper always takes candles, to see if the cocks are safe; for, upon hearing this. I was alarmed, and immediately went with a candle to see if all was safe.</p>
<p>Cross-examined by Mr. Ally. Q. When they go with candles into the warehouse, and a number of men are at work, the superintendant takes candles to see that they do their work? - A. They go to the counting-house and take candles.</p>
<p>Q. How many servants do you occupy in your business? - A. At that time only two,
<persName id="t17951202-48-person636"> John Taylor
<interp inst="t17951202-48-person636" type="surname" value="Taylor"/>
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<interp inst="t17951202-48-person636" type="gender" value="male"/> </persName> and Stephen Lloyd.</p>
<p>Q. What became of Lloyd? - A. He has run away.</p>
<p>Q. What was his occupation? - A. He and
<persName id="t17951202-48-person637"> John Taylor
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<interp inst="t17951202-48-person637" type="gender" value="male"/> </persName> were upon equal standing.</p>
<p>Q. As well as to wages as to the authority they had about your cellar? - A. Yes.</p>
<p>Q. Has it not been usual for Lloyd to give directions to the other man? - A. No.</p>
<p>Q. Did you not call him your cellar-man? - A. No; we had a cooper who had the superintendance of them; he was ill a fortnight, and I superintended myself; Lloyd took upon himself to order the other servants, and I took him to task for it; Taylor had complained to me that he made him work too much in drudgery of a morning; I told them to do it equally alike.</p>
<p>Q. At what time did Lloyd leave your service? - A. I received a note from him, telling me, that he should be very sorry to appear against his fellow servant; when the hearing was over, if I pleased, he would come to work again.</p>
<p>Q. When did he abscond from your service? - A. He went away on Saturday night, when he was paid, and I have not seen him since.</p>
<p>Q. The same night these men were apprehended? - A. Yes.</p>
<p>Q. Have you no person at all connected with you in business, but those you have mentioned? - A. None.</p>
<p>Q. None who derive any benesit from your business? - A. None.</p>
<p>Q. You have not been fortunate enough to obtain Lloyd? - A. No; I had a warrant today from the Lord-Mayor.</p>
<p>Q. Did you ever find fault with Lloyd for giving orders about conducting your business or trade? - A. No, never.</p>
<p>
<xptr type="pageFacsimile" doc="179512020074"/>Court. Q. What is the size of this cellar? - A. I suppose about twenty or twenty-five feet square; there is a cellar beyond it much larger.</p>
<p>Q. Could Taylor get to the cellar beyond it? - A. Yes; there was a door way and no doors; nothing was kept in it but empty casks.</p>
<p>Q. Whether your cellars are so situated, that your man being busy in one, another man could not go down into the other, and take something without his knowledge? - A. If he did not see him, he must hear him; if he has any ears, for there is a large open door way without doors.</p>
<p>Q. Do you think it impossible for a man to go into the other cellar without his knowledge? - A. He could not draw the rum out of that vat, being full, and the cock large, without being heard the length of this court.</p>
<p>Webb's defence. I was hired as a porter to carry that basket out of the cellar; I had nothing to do with filling it, or any thing else.(Taylor left his defence to his counsel, who called Mr. Chatfield,
<persName id="t17951202-48-person638"> John Hoy
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<interp inst="t17951202-48-person638" type="given" value="John"/>
<interp inst="t17951202-48-person638" type="gender" value="male"/> </persName> , John Harding, and
<persName id="t17951202-48-person639"> John James
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<interp inst="t17951202-48-person639" type="given" value="John"/>
<interp inst="t17951202-48-person639" type="gender" value="male"/> </persName> , who all gave him a good character.</p>
<p>Webb,
<rs id="t17951202-48-verdict258" type="verdictDescription">
<interp inst="t17951202-48-verdict258" type="verdictCategory" value="guilty"/> GUILTY </rs>. (Aged 38.)</p>
<p>Taylor, GUILTY.(Aged 36.)</p>
<p>Tried by the first Middlesex Jury, before Mr. RECORDER.</p>
<p>
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<note>[Transportation. See summary.]</note> </rs> </p> </div1></div0>
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