JAMES HENRY GRANT SEYMOUR, JAMES WOOLFORD.
18th March 1907
Reference Numbert19070318-34
VerdictsNot Guilty > unknown; Not Guilty > unknown; Guilty > unknown
SentencesImprisonment > hard labour

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SEYMOUR, James Henry Grant (32, commission agent), sad WOOLFORD, James (57, metal refiner) ; both conspiring and agreeing together with B. Holt and one Walters to cheat and defraud Charles Buch and others, and obtaining from them a certain valuable security, to wit, an order for the payment of £3,800 and Bank of England notes for £3,400, with intent to defraud; both conspiring and agreeing together with B. Holt and Walters to cheat and defraud Herbert Carpenter; Seymour obtaining by false pretences from Oscar Joseph Klein the sum of £5,800 in money, and a valuable security, to wit, an order for the payment of £3,400, with intent to defraud; Woolford obtaining by false pretences from Oscar Joseph Klein two valuable securities, to wit, orders for the payment of £21 1s. 6d. and £48 18s. 6d., with intent to defraud.

Mr. Purcell prosecuted; Mr. Ruegg, K.C, and Mr. James Todd defended Seymour; Mr. Eustace Fulton and Mr. Hoffgaard defended Woolford.

THOMAS ERNKST KLIEN , commission, merchant, West Kingston. I made the acquaintance of Woolford some three or four years ago and saw him in relation to dealings in antimony in the summer or commencement of autumn last year. He made a proposal as to finding someone to finance a sale of two small lots, 50 tons and 20 tons of antimony ore, which had been sold to Messrs. Quirk Barton, of Grace-church Street. Nothing came of those negotiations. The next matter which arose was a question of selling antimonial ore. Woolford found that I could sell ore and did sell ore, and we had numerous conferences as to how this was to be sold and who was to finance it. I found it necessary to work the business myself and tried to find someone for him to finance the whole transaction. He told me the amount of ore was 400 tons and that he had purchased it from B. Holt and Co., 25-29, Coleman Street, at what is known as the Wool Exchange, and he handed me the contract for sale at 8s. per unit. That would be about October 26, and a few days afterwards I went I to see B. Holt and Co., and saw someone who I was told was Mr. Holt. He, however, could not speak English, and his clerk, Mr. Walters, interpreted for me. The photograph (produced) is that of Walters, whom I saw the other day in Paris. (Walters or Labarre is now awaiting trial in Paris in connection with the conspiracy.) I then went to Messrs. Buch and Co., and reported my negotiations with them from time to time to Woolford. After numerous conference I arranged with Messrs. Charles Buch and Co. that I should lay the original bought contract before them and also my selling contracts, as I had sold the goods. I had already sold ore at prices running up to £30, £33, and £35 per ton in small lots of 150 tons, the avenge sale price per unit being about 11s. A unit is equivalent to one percent.

This ore was supposed to run to 50 units per ton. The arrangement with Messrs. Buch and Co. was that they were to finance the whole transaction, take up the bill of lading, deliver the orders to me and I was to collect the money from the buyers in their name and pay the proceeds to Buch and Co. The profits were to be divided into three parts, one-third to Charles Buch and Co. for financing, one-third to Woolford, who carried on business as the Comptoir Geologique de la Guyane Anglaise, for finding the sellers of the goods, and one-third to myself for finding the buyers and arranging the finances. Woolford agreed to that. The next question was about delivery. We were to receive the goods at the latest by the middle of November. There was a long delay, and we were continually pressing for delivery. On the question of delivery I was introduced to Mr. Grant Seymour and Woolford said he would be of great assistance, that at one time he had been in Messrs. Holt's office and was a great personal friend of Mr. Holt and had great influence with him, and as I could not speak French fluently I appealed to Mr. Grant Seymour to press Holt for delivery. Woolford described me to Seymour as the gentleman who had found people to finance the contract, and who had sold the goods. I asked Seymour if he was sure the goods would be delivered and when they would be delivered. He said he was perfectly sure they would be delivered according to contract. There was no justification for me making a disturbance about nondelivery as that time had not arrived. I had perhaps seven or eight interviews with Seymour. I was usually pressing for delivery, and Mr. Grant Seymour said he was doing all he could and he was perfectly sure the goods would be delivered at the right time. At one of the later interviews he produced a telegram from Seville to Holt and Co, stating that the documents for the goods, the bills of lading, etc., bad been posted. At one of the interviews he made the remark that he was assisting us greatly in obtaining our goods from Mr. Holt, who was a very difficult man to get on with, that his (Seymour's) time was of great value, and he thought he should receive some payment from me for attending to my business. Two sums of £25 and £10 were paid to him for his services, and a further promise was made that the moment the documents were in my hands and were proved to be in order he should receive £100 from me. I do not remember that he referred to any other part of the business besides the delivery. He stated, re the payment, that Mr. Holt had made it a special request that cash should be paid for these documents when they came forward, the excuse made being that Mr. Holt was a foreigner and did not understand English cheques and wanted cash and cash only. Cash was promised to him. At one of the interviews it was stated by Seymour that a North of England smelter had heard of these goods and wished to obtain them from Holt and Co., and one of the arguments he brought forward in obtaining money from us was that he had continued to sit on Holt's doorstep to prevent these goods going into other hands at a better price than we had paid. These conversations with Seymour took place in Finsbury Pavement, the

name over the door being that of Charles Phillips and Co. There were two rooms; one was quite empty, the other was a small room with just a table and two chairs. I saw some one else there once or twice, but I should not recognise him, nor did I ever speak to him. I heard the documents had arrived about November 24 or 25, but they were never handed over. I know that legal proceedings were commenced by Buch and Co. for an injunction to restrain Holt and Co. from parting with the documents and to compel them to fulfil their contract. I was present at a meeting at Messrs. Bellord and Co's office, Mr. Synnott (a member of the firm) and both the prisoners being also present, at which the legal proceedings were compromised by the signing of a letter from Holt and Co., guaranteeing that we should have the second consignment of 400 tons. Nobody ever saw the first lot. A telegram that Grant Seymour showed me on November 22 had reference to the second lot. On Friday, December 7, Walters came from Holt and Co. 's office to tell Mr. Grant Seymour to let us know that the documents had actually arrived. I at once went to Charles Buch and Co. 's office with the information. This would be about two o'clock in the afternoon. We had been continually asking the name of the shipping company through which the documents were to arrive, but Seymour said that if we had the name of the company we should be putting an injunction on the cargo, and that was what Holt and Co. wanted to avoid. On December 7 I went to Seymour's office in the afternoon and told him that Charles Buch and Co. were going round to Holts office to pay the money and take up the documents. We had a conversation with reference to a further consignment later on. I expressed a hope that next time goods came along there would not be all this trouble about it. Seymour agreed, and said he thought he could get hold of some further parcels of antimony ore. I said we should be only too glad to buy if the price was right. Then we talked about an antimonial ore mine in Cornwall that he had an interest in. I suggested to Seymour that we should go round to Holt's office, but Seymour said it was not necessary. Next day (Saturday) when I went to Holt's office I found it closed. On the same day I saw Seymour at the office of Phillips and Co. in Finsbury Pavement and told him a question had arisen as to the value of the documents which we had paid for, that Holt and Co. 's office was closed, that the shipping company's office was closed, and that the whole business seemed rather suspicious. He then asked me if I had got the £100 for him. I said, "No, I had not got the money yet," and then he turned round and told me that all these questions of suspicion were merely an excuse on the part of Charles Buch and Co not to pay the money they had promised, and so prevent me paying the £100. I did not see him again until he was in custody.

Cross-examined by Mr. Ruegg. It was Woolford who came to me about this matter originally. He intimated to me that he had a very valuable contract. If the matter had turned out all right I should

have made a tidy sum. Seymour was not to have any part of the profit except £100. Holts had to me the appearance of being a respectable firm, and, of course, I made myself responsible for the delivery of the goods, having sold them. I had not the least suspicion of Holt and Co. until the evening when they ran away with the money. Walters, at least, ran off with it, and Holt disappeared at the same time. Holt was not in London at the time; he had gone on to Paris before. As far as I know, Messrs. Buch and Co. had no suspicion of Holts until the climax came. I had arranged the contract by which Buch and Co. were to finance Woolford to the extent of 75 per cent, before I saw Seymour at all. I believed that Seymour had a great deal of influence with Holt. I was naturally anxious that he should work with me, and it was on that account I gave him the commission of £100. I did not give him a commission note, but wrote him to that effect. He seemed very anxious to get that commission. The £25 and £10 was given him as a present for helping Mr. Sey mour wanted the £100 immediately, but I said I would not pay it until everything was proved to be correct. I understood that Seymour had had a quarrel with Holt. When Holt stipulated for the money in cash that did not strike me as suspicious. When I was shown the telegram from Seville I believed that it had come from Holts. I believed Holt had told Seymour that there was someone in the North of England who had offered more, and I was extremely anxious to keep the contract. It was I who asked Seymour to go to the meeting at the solicitor's office. He was acting really in the interests of Buch and Co. I was anxious that the action should not go on. Mr. Seymour promised us at the solicitor's office that we should have the second parcel of goods instead of the first parcel. There were present at that meeting Mr. Seymour, Mr. Klien, and Mr. Kirchhove, representing Buch and Co., and myself. I saw Seymour at the office of Charles Phillips and Co. I know nothing of Charles Phillips and Co. I am not suggesting that there is not a Charles Phillips and Co. On one occasion when I asked Seymour the name of the ship or the shipping company he said he did not know, and if he had known he would not have told us as Holt and Co. wanted to keep the name of the ship away from us. I was perfectly friendly with Mr. Seymour and believed in him to the end, but I can hardly say I believe in him now. When Walters went to Prance the money disappeared. I cannot say that he took it with him. I had some conversation with Seymour about some mines in Cornwall. The subject was merely mentioned once, about the time the documents were being taken up. I was to get money to finance those mines through Buch and Co. after the other business had gone through. When I found the offices of Buch and Co. and of the shipping company closed, I had a shrewd shrews suspicion that the whole thing was a swindle. I went back to Seymour and discussed the position with him, and he seemed quite incredulous and said it was all nonsense—rot, and asked me if the time had not come for me to pay him his £100. As to

whether anybody connected with the transaction had the least suspicion of Holt and Co. before December 7 when the fraud was committed, Mr. Klein, of Messrs. Buch and Co., before he left for Russia some time before the documents did arrive left a message that we were to be very careful when paying the money for these documents, his personal idea being that we should never get either the goods or the documents.

Cross-examined by Mr. Fulton. I may have known Woolford three or four years, but I had no business with him until the summer or autumn of last year. I understood he was well known as an expert in metals, not an obscure man by any means. There was an agreement with him, and under which I was to introduce sales of metals to Messrs. Charles Buch and Co., and to them only. Naturally, Messrs. Charles Buch and Co. wanted to bind us to carry on this business later on, considering that they had found the money to make the first transaction possible. They gave us a commission note to that effect which I drew up myself. There was nothing I saw at Holt's to excite suspicion. In the interviews I had with Seymour Woolford was nearly always present. Woolford was acting for himself really as seller.

Re-examined. The information about the smelter in the North of England came from Seymour.

SAMUEL LOPEZ SALZEDO , Spanish interpreter. The bill of lading produced gives Ramires Lopez as the captain of the steamer Albatros, of the port of Seville, bound to London with a consignment to Messrs. B. Holt and Co., 25-29, Coleman Street, of 425 tons of antimony pre, one of the conditions being that three bills of lading had been signed upon one of which being executed the others shall be null and void. The date is December 4, 1906, Seville. The name of the shipping company is given as the Campania General Sevillana de Navegacion. Another document produced purports to be a maritime insurance policy issued by the Campania de Seguros Maritimos and the amount of the premium is 1,500 pesetas. The conditions on the back are full of misprints, which would immediately suggest to a person conversant with Spanish that the document is not genuine. There is no bad grammar. The document has been correctly transcribed from a Spanish original, and the misprints are due to the printer not knowing the language. In the second paragraph the word "no" is spelt "non," there being no "non." in Spanish, and the accents determining the tenses are not there. Looking at it I say that it was not printed by a Spanish printer. The consignment is stated to be in Hired for 250,000 pesetas, and the value of the peseta is about 27 to £1.

WALTER JOSEPH SYNNOTT , of Messrs. Bellord, Coveney, Synnott, and Figgis, solicitors, 4, Queen Victoria Street. I acted for Buch and Co. in an action against Holt and Co. for the delivery of ship's documents relating to a cargo of antimony, and in an injunction restraining them from parting with those documents and for damages. On November 22 there was an interview at my office about the matter, there being

present Woolford, Granl Seymour, Mr. Klien, Kirchhove, and myself. The prisoner Seymour told me he represented Holt and Co. I must explain that I had obtained an interim injunction in respect of the writ I had issued for the recovery of these documents. An application to continue that injunction was to have been made on the 23rd. Seymour told me he would appear and oppose this application on behalf of Holt and Co. A document was produced addressed to Buch and Co. undertaking to transfer the second lot of antimony on condition of the action being withdrawn. I said in the presence of Woolford sod Seymour that I must first see my client Mr. Klein (Buch and Co.), in shortly afterwards Mr. Klein came to my office. I saw Klein in the presence of the prisoners, and also privately in another room. I afterwards told prisoners in the presence of Klein that we would discontinue the action, and I served notice to discontinue. Seymour said he represented Holt and Co., and expressed satisfaction with them. Before Mr. Klein came, Woolford had urged the representatives of Buch and Co. to accept the second consignment of antimony and to stop the action. I cannot say all that Seymour said, because he talked a great deal. I made some notes of the conversation. Mr. Seymour said that if the injunction were not pressed Holt and Co. would certainly deliver this new consignment of antimony which he said was then ready to be loaded. That ended my conversation with the matter at the time.

Cross-examined by Mr. Ruegg. I did not then know who Woolford was. I knew that some 400 tons of ore had been sold by Holt sad Co. to the Comptoir Geologique, and we sued as the assignees of that contract. I believed that Buch and Co. were assignees through Klien, who was acting for them, but I believe the transaction was different from what I then supposed. I understood that they had sgreed to find the money to enable Klien to carry out the purchase of this ore from Holt and Co. They had not paid any money because there were no documents on which they could pay. An offer was made to supply another 400 tons of antimony, and I understood that offer was accepted, but no contract was made at all while they were in my office. I understood that Seymour was speaking either as Holt snd Co. or as their agent; I did not know which.

By Mr. Fulton. The view I put before my counsel (Mr. Maurice Hill) was that Buch and Co. and Holt and Co. were the principals, and that Woolford, Klien, and Seymour were middle people who were making commission. I thought Woolford was interested from his anxiety to see the new bargain carried through.

OSCAR JOSEPH KLEIN , continental merchant, trading as Charles Buch and Co., 6, Mincing Lane. I am the prosecutor in this case. This deal in antimony was introduced to me by Mr. Klien last October. I was given the name of B. Holt and Co. as the firm who had sold the antimony to Woolford. I made inquiries of my bankers, the Mincing Lane branch of the London and Westminster Bank, as to B. Holt and Co., and took the buying and selling contract down to them. I saw the manager, who looked the firm up in his bankers' book at once.

His reply was satisfactory, but I have since ascertained that it referral to E. Holt and Co., of Coleman Street, and not to B. Holt and Co. I agreed to pay 75 per cent, of the value of the ore on taking up the hills of lading. I arrived from Morocco on November 16, having been absent a fortnight from London. On November 17, I was in my office, and heard that the documents had arrived. In consequence, I sent Mr. Kirchhove, one of my staff, to Holt and Co. He was a long time absent, and I had a telephone message from him from the office of Holt and Co. In consequence I sent instructions that a cheque should be sent. It was then a message came through that Mr. Holt not being an Englishman, but a Frenchman or Spaniard, did not understand the value of a marked cheque and would prefer cash. The marked cheque was not accepted, and has never been passed, and in the meantime it had got to quarter to one. On the following Monday, Walters, the clerk of Messrs. Holt and Co., came around in the morning, and showed me a letter received from Mr. Holt in Paris, saying that after we did not comply with the contract by paying cash he had made a firm offer by telegram for the same parcel to somebody in Paris, and had had a wire from his Paris customer accepting it. Walters then asked me to come to Holt's the next day when Holt would be back from Paris, and receive the documents against cash. This did not satisfy me and I consulted my solicitor, Mr. Synnott, who advised me to go to Holt's and tender £7,200 in bank notes. On the Tuesday, Walters came and told me that Holt was still away, having met with an accident. I said to Walters, "Whatever happens, on the advice of my solicitor. I am coming to your office to-day at the appointed hour, and will tender the money. "Walters said he could not help it, he had to act according to instructions. Later in the day, I went and tendered the £7,200 and asked to sep the documents. Walters said, "They are in this safe (pointing to a safe) but I cannot give them to you." From there, I proceeded to Mr. Synriott's offices and got an injunction the same day at four o'clock. With reference to the arrangement for the second consignment, in December. I had left London for Moscow. The first time I met Mr. Grant Seymour was at Mr. Synnott's office and I inquired of Mr. Klien who Mr. Grant Seymour was. I ought to have left for Moscow on December 1, but was always waiting for these documents, being desirous of being in London when they were arriving, and as I doubled if they would come I postponed my journey until December 4. which was Tuesday. I left instructions as to what was to be done should the documents arrive. My staff were to make inquiries at the London office, and also telegraph to Spain. I arrived at Moscow on December 9. On the 16th I was informed what had happened.

Mr. Pureell intimated that he would examine prosecutor as to the special charge against Woolford at a later stage.

Cross-examined by Mr. Ruegg. The only time I saw Seymour was at the solicitor's office. I did not see him again until these proceedings.

I was very anxious about the first consignment; I was not so inxioua about the second. I was not suspicious. It never entered my head that the documents might be forged, but I thought perhaps there would be no documents for the-ore coming. As to Mr. Holt threat ening to sell the consignment in Paris, I really do not know whether in this case there is a Mr. Holt at all. I once saw somebody who was represented to be Mr. Holt. The fact that Holt required oath did not arouse suspicion in my mind, because it is usual in the trade; a banker's cheque is generally taken. I left instructions as to finding out the name of the steamship company after the documents had arrived. That was not being suspicious, but what I should call the ordinary carefulness of a business man. I saw Holt at hit office after I had obtained the injunction, but I do not think a real Mr. Holt does exist, all the same. I mean he has got another name. I had conversation with him for about 20 minutes. He appeared to be a respectable business man and aroused no suspicion in my mind at all. It was the fault of my staff and "bluff" that the instructions with regard to finding out the name of the shipping company were act complied with. They argued it in this way, that the shipping company having a London office, it was not necessary to telegraph to Spain. I left instructions to telegraph because, of coarse, we did not know by what line the documents were coming forward.

Cross-examined by Mr. Fulton. I have seen Woolford, but have not known him long. On my return in November I heard that my people had entered into an agreement with him.

HUGH MANCHA KILBY . I am a broker acting for Messrs. Buch and Co. After Mr. Klein had gone to Russia I heard that the second lot of documents had arrived. I went with Messrs. Buch and Co. 's cashier with a cheque made out for £7,200 in favour of Holt and Co. That was a cheque drawn by Charles Buch and Co. and marked by the bank manager as good. I saw Walters at Holt's office, and he showed me a registered envelope from which he took a bill of lading, the policy of insurance, and a letter of reference. I examined those three documents with the bank clerk and was satisfied that they were all in order. The cheque was then handed to Walters, who said he wanted notes and gold. The bank clerk then said, "Come with me and you shall have them." On reaching the street I observed that it was getting on for four o'clock and said, "If you want to get into the bank in time, you had better jump into a cab and go round and get the money. "Walters and the bank messenger got into a cab, the latter having the cheque and Walters the documents. When I got to the bank I saw Walters counting the notes. Outside the bank Walters said to me, "I hope, Mr. Kilby, that our future business will go off smoothly."

Cross-examined by Mr. Ruegg. It did not strike me as suspicious that Walters refused the cheque and asked to have bank notes because I had known throughout that for some reason or another Holt had insisted on payment being made in bank notes. I agree with me.

Klein that it is not unusual to make payments of this size in cask; a cheque is more general, but it was not sufficiently rare to cause suspicion. I had seen Seymour two or three days before December 7, when the transaction was completed, but I did not tell him that Buch and Co. had got very suspicious of the matter. I did not say they had a list of the shipping companies doing business between Spain and England. I did not say that if the name of the shipping company that appeared on the bill of lading was a name they did not recognise, Mr. Klein had left instructions to insist on a delay of two hours, during which they were to ascertain the status of the shipping company. Mr. Kirchhove was with me on that occasion.

Cross-examined by Mr. Fulton. Woolford was at Buch's office very frequently. I did not see him at Holt's office. Woolford, I understood, was the intermediary between Klien and Holt. I do not know anything about Buch and Co. 's agreement with Klien.

JOHN BRETT , manager of Mincing Lane branch of London and Westminster Bank. By instructions I marked a cheque for £7.200 drawn by Charles Buch and Co. in favour of Holt and Co. I gave that cheque to a messenger to take to Holt and Co. on December 7. The clerk came back with a man similar to the photograph produced (Walters). In consequence of what was said by this man and Buch and Co. 's representative I divided the cheque for £7,200 into one sum of £3,800 in bank notes, and gave a cheque for £3,400 drawn as on behalf of the bank, and crossed it. It appears to have been subsequently paid through Glyn's on behalf of the Credit Lyonnaise, I believe. In return for the notes and cheque I received three documents—the bill of lading, the policy of insurance, and the guarantee. I did not happen to look at them before the money was handed over. I minded them for Buch and Co. Later on I thought I will see what we have got," and looked at them. I saw that there should be three bills of lading, and communicated with Buch and Co. The cheque was cashed the same day by Glyn's house, and the money parted with just before four o'clock. Glyn's Bank is in Lombard Street.

Cross-examined by Mr. Ruegg. The cheque was cleared at the clearing house. They clear after banking hours up till half-past four. I do not know whether any bank would cash that cheque on the strength of the name of the London and Westminster Bank. Without snowing the people, probably they would not. The cheque appears to have been first paid to the Societe Generale, as it bears their name, and to have been cleared on their behalf by Messrs. Glyn and Co. If Glyn's knew their people they would probably give the money at once. I never saw Seymour until I saw him in the police court, and as far as I know he took no part in any of the transactions. I have not considered it any part of my business to trace the notes; the fraud was not on the London and Westminster Bank.

To the Jury. The letters "V. P." on the cheque for £3,400 I pull on myself, for the purpose of dividing the cheque. It signifies "various persons account."

To Mr. Fulton. I never saw anything of Woolford.

THOMAS ERNEST KLIEN recalled. I was aware of the message that came from the bankers about there being only one bill of lading. I then went to Holt and Co. and found it closed. I then went to the office of Emanuel Cahan and Co. and found that closed as well. I spent nearly all the Saturday morning (December 8) between the two offices. I saw Mr. Carpenter while I was watching, but did not speak to him. I did not see Mr. Collins.

GEORGE COLLINS , carrying on business as Geo. Collins and Co., printers, 77, Fleet Street. On December 7 I called at Holt's office for a little account. In consequence of what I heard I got into communication with Messrs. Buch and Co., and was afterwards shown the bill of lading, the policy of insurance produced. I recognise those two documents as having been printed by George Collins and Co., and also the heading of a type-written letter, "B. Holt and Co. "I got the order to print the bill of lading on November 19, 1906, and printed 100 copies. Of the policy of insurance we printed 500 copies on November 23. The heading of the letter of guarantee was an earlier order. The orders were given by Walters, whom I have since seen in Paris. With regard to the bill of lading, it is usual to put the printer's name at the bottom, and we put our imprint on the proof, out he would not have it. He made sundry corrections on the proof. We previously showed him good qualities of papers with the water mark of Walter Tanner and Co., London, makers, but he was not satisfied with any of the specimens, and finally chose a paper without any water-mark of a cheaper quality than we usually print bills of lading on. We had previously seen Walters in May, 1906. The first job he brought us was a bill of exchange in the name of Walter May, general merchants, Bear Lane, Southwark, London, S. E. We made a copper-plate which on October 9 we altered at Walters's request to Emanuel Cahan and Co., of Palmerston House. We also printed for him a cheque-plate, "Levis Brothers and Co., American Bankers,"and subsequently a cheque plate in the name of "Messrs. B. Holt and Co., 25-29, Coleman Street, London, E. C." In all there were 500 cheques bound in 20 cheque books. The plate produced it that from which Holt's cheques were printed. The Levis Brothers' cheque plate was obliterated, and nothing else put upon it. I took the order from Walters in each case. He seemed to be the principal man in each of these firms.

Cross-examined by Mr. Ruegg. I never saw Mr. Seymour. Walters paid for the things he ordered in May, 1906, and we looked upon him as a good customer. The bills of lading, etc., we did not get paid for.

To Mr. Fulton. Woolford was in no way concerned in the ordering of these documents.

To the Jury. I delivered the plate with the goods on each occasion. Walters usually fetched the work; it was very rarely that we sent it.

Detective-sergeant WILLIAM SARGENT, City Police. I obtained from Messrs. Alexander certain references—Meihe and Co., 216. Upper Thames Street, who are agents for the landlords of 25-29 Coleman Street. On February 5 I arrested Woolford in Queen Victoria Street, and took him to the police station, where the warrant was read to him by Inspector Murphy. Woolford made a statement to the effect that the ore was his property.

HENRY CHAMPION , ship chandler, 76, Leadenhall Street. I made the acquaintance of Grant Seymour possibly about twelve months ago. At first it was a friendly affair, and afterwards we had some talk about doing business in the sale of French products. I am not very familiar with French. Seymour was to write the letters in French and I was to sign them. I gave him two of my letter forms signed by Mr. Seymour afterwards wrote me concerning Holt, that they were going into business together, and asking me to be a reference for some offices they were about taking. I did not know Holt and I declined, and the matter dropped. I did not give the reference produced, though the signature, "H. Champion and Co.,"is in my handwriting. I did not authorise Seymour to give such a reference for B. Holt and Co. I should say it is written on one of the two sheets of paper I gave to Seymour. I do not use a typewriter, and have never had one.

Cross-examined by Mr. Ruegg. I write French very little. I was at school for two years at Tournay, in Belgium. I knew Seymour had not any office when he was proposing to start this French business. I have no recollection of receiving a letter from Alexander Meihe and Co. If I had I should have handed it to Seymour. I never saw Mr. B. Holt. I know that Seymour went for a short time into Holt's office. The French business would have been done from my office. I recollect giving him the two sheets of paper perfectly well. Our friendship did not break up somewhat suddenly. We had no business together and therefore we never met. We had a little dispute over a cheque and it was at that time our friendship ceased. He went to France about that time and I lent him a bag of mine and from time to time I lent him a few shillings. A cheque I gave him for £1 was dishonoured.

ARTHUR JOHN SHARGOOL , collector, Palmerston House Buildings, produced an agreement with reference to the letting of offices in Palmerston House to Emanuel Cahan and Co., dated August 27, 1906. Cahan, or whoever made the agreement, produced a visiting card with the address, "2, The Grange, Maiiland Park. "The references given were to a Mr. Middleton, 66a, Cannon Street, and Richard Walters, 65, Folkestone Road. The references were satisfactory. The man who took the premises was not Seymour. Witness recognised the photograph of Walters as Cahan. (The reference of Middleton is the handwriting of Grant Seymour.)

Cross-examined by Mr. Ruegg. I have never seen Mr. Seymour before. We had no communication with Cahan at Maitland Park—only at the office.

To Mr. Pulton. I know nothing about Woolford.

Detective-inspector JOHN OTTAWAY, City Police. At seven p.m. on January 12 I went with Sergeunt Sargent to 2, The Grange, Maitland Park, and saw Seymour, who there occupied a flat. I told him we were police officers and held a warrant for his arrest for obtaining large sums of money from Messrs. Buch and Co. He said, "I know nothing about it further than that I introduced the two parties to one another. Mr. Woolford, with whom the contract was made, has been to see me with reference to the matter on several occasions and told me that Buch and Co. had placed the matter in the hands of the police." I then read the warrant to him, and he replied, "This is monstrous. Buch and Co. are aware that I know nothing about it." While the room was being searched Seymour took a letter from his pocket and stooped towards the fire. I took the envelope from his hand and said, "You were going to burn that,' and he said, "I was not. Will you read them?" I produce the contents of the envelope. Some are letters in German.

(Thursday, March 21.)

Inspector JOHN OTTAWAY, further examined. I obtained the key of the safe in Holt and Co. 's office in Coleman Street from Inspector Murphy. In the safe I found nine unused cheque books in the name of B. Holt and Co. and two used cheque-books with the counterfoils remaining in them. There is no entry on any one of the counterfoils. Among the blank counterfoils I found one lettered "H., No.—," and running from No. 1 continuously. The copper plates had been, previously found by Anderton. At 2, The Grange, I found the agreement for the letting of those rooms to Grant Seymour, dated May 24, 1906. He is described as of 66, Queen Victoria Street, shipping agent. I have seen Grant Seymour write, and in my opinion the reference signed Middleman and handed to Shargool for the taking of the (premises at Palmerston House in the name of Cahan and Co. is in Seymour's handwriting.

Cross-examined by Mr. Ruegg. The agreement relating to Seymour's private house was not put in at the police court; it was not asked for. Amongst the papers were also two commission contract, on signed by Woolford in the name of the Comptoir Geologique and the other in the name of Soame Montague and Co. (Herbert Carpenter). "In consideration of services rendered by you in introducing us to Messrs. B. Holt and Co., for the purpose of our purchasing ore from the said firm, we hereby agree to pay you a commission equivalent to 10s. per ton on all ore purchased from this firm by us, this commission to be paid immediately the transactions between Holt and Co. and ourselves are completed." One is dated November 2 and the other November 7. Both have impressed stamps upon them. I thought the act of Seymour in stooping to put something into the fir was important, but I did not mention it at the first hearing at the police court because I then only gave evidence of arrest. I am

seriously of opinion that prisoner intended to burn the papers. He told me I could read the letters after I had taken them from him One was a complaint of a firm of German merchants that they had not been paid for goods supplied to the firm of Debouchere Warner and Co., and saying they did not like that sort of business, and would charge the account against Mr. Seymour, Debouchere Warner and Co. being "a swindle firm." The letter was addressed to Seymour. I arrested him on January 12. He had been at home in the interval from December 7 as far as I know. I had no trouble in finding him I know now he had a three years' agreement in respect of his residence. Walters is in custody in France. Holt has not been found. Warrants were issued against Grant Seymour, Holt, and Walters.

Cross-examined by Mr. Fulton. No warrant was issued against Woolford at that time. I made a thorough search of the premises of Holt and Co. and Seymour, and found nothing relating to Woolford with the exception of the one commission note and a receipt for two cheques given by Woolford to Grant Seymour: "Received from Grant Seymour, Esq., two cheques for £10 10s. in payment for one ton of antimony ore, this cheque to be held over until delivery of the ore I searched Woolford's house, but found nothing connected with this transaction. At Seymour's house I saw a Mr. Phillips. I do not know his Christian name.

HERBERT MIDDLETON , Emmanuel Road. Balham, denied giving the reference for Cahan and Co. in respect of Palmerston House premises or authorising a reference to be given in his name.

Cross-examined by Mr. Ruegg. The reference is undoubtedly on my paper, "Middleton and Co., mining engineers, ore merchants and mineralogists."

Re-examined. I know Woolford, who for years has come to my place on business. The paper was kept in the stationery rack on the desk. He might have been there sometimes by himself.

To Mr. Fulton. I know both Woolford and Seymour, who to my knowledge knew one another. The latter also often came to my office. To Mr. Ruegg. I do not know Holt or Walters. My office consists of one room, and the stationery is lying about on the table. I went to Holt's office to see Mr. Seymour with reference to some ore he had sold me.

Detective ALFRED ANDERTON, City Police. On January 1 I searched the offices of Holt and Co. and found five bills of exchange drawn by Emanuel Cahan and Co. in favour of Debouchere, Warner and Cosigned with B. Holt and Co. 's stamp. One is endorsed "Seamour," for 2,500 Italian lire. I found letters in French and Italian from foreign firms, all complaining that they could not get their money I also found five copper plates which have been produced and a die for impressing stationery, "B. Holt and Co., 25-29. Coleman Street, EC." There is a plate "B. Holt and Co." for impressions where the cheque is torn from the counterfoil. On the same day I searched the offices of Cahan and Co., 104, Palmerston House, where I found two

more of Mr. Collins's copper plates. Besides the copper plates I found the bills of lading in Spanish printed by Mr. Collins.

Cross-examined by Mr. Ruegg. The bills of exchange and cheques and other documents were all found either at Holt's or Cahan's. Some of the bills of exchange had several names on the back. I have not inquired if they were all forgeries. I have seen Grant Seymour's writing, which appears to me to be larger than the signature "Secmour."

WILLIAM OSBORNE , lift attendant, Palmerston House. Cahan and Co. had offices in Palmerston House three or four months before Christmas, latterly as agents of the Campania General Sevillana de Navegacion. I identify the photograph of Walters or Labarre, now in Paris, as the man I knew as Emanuel Cahan. We looked upon him as the head of the Campania General. He was a good deal at the offices and had many visitors. The man I knew as Cahan introduced me to a man I knew as Walters, whom when Cahan was away I might let into the offices with a key. He was about 45 years of age and rather a tall man, an older man than the photograph shows, with a rather conspicuous scar on his cheek. (Holt.) Prisoner Seymour used to visit Cahan two or three times a week. The office was on the second floor.

Cross-examined by Mr. Ruegg. A great many people used to come every day to see Cahan. The name of the Campania General Sevil-ana de Navegacion was up more than a week, more than a month. Caldwell Moore and Co. had offices above Cahan's. Cahan also had visitor named Franck, a Frenchman, but I do not know that Franck was a visitor to Caldwell Moore. The latter are old tenants and are there still.

ALFRED DOCTOR , trading as the Parisian Pleating Company. In June, 1906, Debouchere Warner and Co. were introduced to me. I am a costume skirt manufacturer and pleater, and now carry on business in Eden Street, but was then in Moor Lane. I let part of 23, Moor Lane, to a person representing Debouchere Warner and Co. on a verbal agreement at £60 a year, payable quarterly in advance. The first quarter was paid and no more. On December 1 I found the place shut up and had to force it open. In February I called at the office of C. Phillips and Co., on the third floor at 66, Finsbury Pavement, and there saw one of the persons who had been my tenant as Debouchere Warner and Co.

THOMAS ERNEST KLIEN , recalled, further Cross-examined by Mr. Ruegg. Two or three days before December 7 Seymour said to me he was getting rather sick of doing business with Chas. Buch and Co. and myself as none of the business seemed to go through satisfactorily. I think I told him that Buch and Co. had made inquiries of all the Spanish shipping companies they could think of, and if we found that the name of this company did not appear on the documents we should be very careful about parting with our money. I did not say we would not complete at all. Those were Mr. Klein's instructtions

before he left. I had nothing to do with completion. It was in Charles Buch and Co. 's hands. I heard afterwards that inquiries were to have been made by telegram to Spain, but did not know that at the time.

FRED ROBINSON , tailor and hosier, 47, Broadway, Ealing. On October 13 last a man named Crookshank bought goods, of me to the amount of £4 and handed me in payment a cheque for £10: "13th October, 1906.—Messrs. B. Holt and Co., 25-29, Coleman Street, London. Pay James Woolford and Co., or order £10.—H. J. Grant Seymour." That cheque was numbered "No. 16 1477," and corresponds with the bank counterfoils found in Holt's safe. I let Crookshank have the goods and handed him 10s. in cash. Crookshank should have called for the cheque, but I have never seen him since. I gave that cheque to my solicitor, and it came back marked, "Payment stopped." On October 25 I went to Holt and Co., bankers, Coleman Street, where I saw Seymour and told him I had come in respect of a cheque of which I had a copy which had been paid in at my business. He invited me into an inner office. When I told him the name of the drawer of the cheque he said Grant Seymour was a very wealthy customer of theirs, but at the present time there were no funds in their bank to meet the cheque. I said, "This is no bank." He replied, "Yes, a very respectable bank." I said if that cheque was not met I should at once inform the police. He said he would see Grant Seymour that evening and see what could be done. I asked him if he could give me the address, and he said they never divulged clients' business. On January 29 I paid a visit to the Mansion House Justice Room in consequence of having read something in the paper. I saw Grant Seymour in the dock and afterwards communicated to the police. Seymour could see me at the Mansion House and turned quite round towards me. On February 4 I received a letter purporting to come from Crookshank enclosing the £4 and the 10s. in coin. From October 13 I had heard nothing of Crookshank.

Cross-examined by Mr. Ruegg. I do not accept the suggestion that I am mistaking Seymour for Walters. I have never seen Walters. I do not recognise the photograph (of Waiters) produced. I gave a description of the prisoner Seymour to the police last October. After I had seen and recognised Seymour at the Mansion House I gave evidence. I did not hear Insector Murphy subsequently say, "I have seen Walters in. Paris. He could easily be mistaken for the prisoner (Seymour). He speaks English like an Englishman."

Re-examined. Having seen the photograph, I say that Seymour was the man I saw in Holt's office, and not the original of the photograph.

Detective-Inspector JAMES MURPHY, City Police. I have been to Paris in connection with the prosecution of Walters. I received from the French police, who arrested him, the key with which Inspector Ottaway opened the safe at Holt's. The address given by Seymour,

66, Queen Victoria Street, is a District Messenger's Office, where they take in letters at 1d. each. There is no shipping agency there. I cannot say that there are letters lying there for H. J. Grant Seymour.

Cross-examined by Mr. Ruegg. I said before the magistrate that Walters could easily be mistaken for Seymour, but Waiters is a bigger man. If he was sitting down that would not be very apparent. Like Seymour, he is a dark main. We have not been able to get bold of Holt, but have made every effort to find him. Walters speaks English fluently, but with a very slight accent. You want to be with bin—for some time for it to be noticeable. He has been over here for thirteen years. From the photograph of Waiters it will be noticed that he has rather a peculiar mouth and prominent cheeks. The man who has a scar on his cheek is Holt.

HERBERT CARPENTER , manufacturers' agent, Cadogan House, Surbiton, and carrying on business as Soame, Montagu, and Co. I made the acquaintance of Wool-ford about eighteen months ago, being introduced to him by Grooksbank. When I first made Woolford's acquaintance his proposal was to deal in a number of mining shares in a mine supposed to be in Spain. I afterwards saw Crooksbank at No. 1. Telegraph Street, the names up being "Gerard and Co., Gold and Silver Complex Ore Reduction Company." Woolford said he was interested in those businesses, and also mentioned the Comptoir Geologique. He told me he was forming a big smelting concern, and suggested that I should deal in ore with a view to supplying these big smelting companies, who were going to be smelters. He told me he would introduce me to the sources of supply, and in May he introduced me to Mr. Grant Seymour, who, he said, could supply me with a quantity of ore. They showed me a sample of what was supposed to be antimony ore, the amount on offer being 10 tons. Having got the sample, I went about to find purchasers and sold it. Having sold the whole 10 tons, I then wanted delivery, but could not get it. Woolford told me he would take me to where the ore was lying, and we started to go and see it. We met Seymour in Watling Street. Woolford and Seymour went on one side and had a little conversation together, and then they came back to me and Woolford said, "We will now go down and sec the ore." That was all that passed in Seymour's presence. Woolford and I went down to Old Ford and I was taken to a disused smelting works, where I saw a lot of rubbish, some of it loose and some in very rotten bags. Woolford said, "This is not our ore; our ore is somewhere else." I was afterwards shown the ore I had bought at Salmon's Lane. At that time Woolford had been paid £30 for the 10 tons I bought and resold by Nelson on our behalf. The ore at Salmon's Lane seemed a very mixed parcel, and I asked Woolford which was my 10 tons. He said it would have to be picked over, and I agreed to pay for the picking, as he said he had no money for the purpose. I paid £2 8s. and delivered two tons of the picked stuff to Hallett and Fry. They accepted and paid for 9 cwt. and refused the other as not worth treating. I asked Woolford to return to Nelson the balance of the £30. I first heard of B. Holt

and Co. during the latter part of this transaction. Their name had not been used in this transaction at all. I think I was introduced to them by Grant Seymour with reference to buying 400 tons of antimony ore which Seymour said Holts could supply me. I went to Holt's office several times and saw a man I believed to be Holt. Eventually a contract was entered into for the supply of the 400 tons. The contract described the goods as sulphide of antimony ore, as per analysis, guaranteed free from arsenic, zinc, and lead, on the basis of 60 per cent, and not below 50 per cent. I was to pay £7,200 when I had got the goods. I asked in a general way where the goods were coming from and was told from Seville, but they could not give me the name of the shipping company or the ship until the goods had been actually put on board. It was mentioned by Seymour that if I would take 800 tons he had a possible purchaser of 400 tons. The contract was signed about October 25. I saw him afterwards at the office of Charles Phillips and Co., 66, Finsbury Pavement, when I found the goods did not come through. In the meantime I had resold the goods at an enhanced price to 32 purchasers. Eventually I was shown a telegram purporting to come from Seville saying that the documents had left and on December 5 was told they had arrived. Seymour told me he was no longer at Holt's office because he had had a disagreement with Holt. The first time I called at Holt's office I saw a clerk, and afterwards on December 7, Walters. As I met him he was just rushing out. I went on the Saturday, but did not find him there nor on the Monday, when I learned what had happened from a representative of Buch and Co. The letter of reference, signed Middleton and Co., I should say is in Seymour's handwriting. I had several interviews with Seymour at Holt's office. I was told first that the bills of lading had arrived without the policy of insurance; and, secondly, that the goods had been disposed of elsewhere. I was offered a second consignment.

Cross-examined by Mr. Ruegg. I did not part with any money for any of these goods. As to whether this was an attempt to get money out of me, you have the facts before you; they entered into a contract with me which they failed to keep. Seymour arranged the contract. I have been some years in the City of London. Contracts are not always arranged by a commission agent, but I have heard of sometimes three or four commission agents having a claim on a transaction. When I saw the ore at Salmon's Lane I said I considered it a very inferior lot. I bought at £3 a ton and sold to Hallett and Fry for £6. The contract was for the payment of 75 per cent, on delivery of the documents and the balance 14 days afterwards, on it having been certified by Messrs. Claudet, who are perfectly well-known, assayers, that the goods were satisfactory. I did not think Seymour was acting as agent for Holt's. He seemed to be on equal terms in the office with Holt. I knew he was not Holt, but I did not know he was not amongst the company. I did not think it a strange transaction that Seymour should be taking commission for introducing business to a firm in which he was a principal. It is a transaction which is

carried out daily in the City of London. It would have been a good thing for me if the transaction had been carried out and a good thing for Seymour, whose commission would have amounted to £200 payable after the stone had been assayed and declared to be according to sample. I did not see anything suspicious in Holt and Co. until the final break up, but I thought it extraordinary the documents did not come round on the first consignment. I thought they were an established firm and did not trouble any more about it except that I wanted to get my contract through. I regarded Seymour as acting for Holt and Co. The telegram concerning the document was printed and had the appearance of coming from Seville. It was in French and purported to say that the documents had left Seville. That satisfied me. I consider the price I bought at gave only a fair business profit. I should not have got anything like 100 per cent. There was nothing to excite suspicion in the contract. Holt and Co. understood from me that money would be forthcoming against the documents, but I refused to tell the names of the people who would find the money.

Cross-examined by Mr. Fulton. I first got to know Woolford about 18 months ago. It is not the fact that I was in the habit of cashing cheques at Gerard's office. I called upon the firm of Quirk, Barton, whom I know by repute. I was not recommended to go there by Woolford. I also went to the firm of Locke, Lancaster of my own initiative. I have dealings in silk. The first deal I had in metals was in May of last year. Woolford introduced me to Mr. Middleton, from whom I bought 20 tons of antimony ore at £5, which I resold at £7 10s. on a unitage. Woolford was to have 1 per cent, of the profits for the introduction, but there were no profits,. and Woolford has not yet paid his proportion of the loss, which was about £20. When tested the ore was found not to be up to the standard. Buying at £3 a ton, I did not expect to get ores very rich in antimony. Antimony is now, I think, fetching £104 per ton. As a matter of fact, I expected to find 15 per cent. I am not an expert in ores, but can tell antimony ore from silicate or stone. I think the amount of antimony stipulated in the contract was 15 per cent.

ALFRED INGLE FROST , clerk in the Coleman Street branch of the London and South-Western Bank. Emanuel Cahan and Co. opened an account with us on September 17, 1906, with £60. They gave as references B. Holt and Co., Coleman Street; Charles Phillips, 37, Argyll Street; and A. Goldschmidt, 1, Finsbury Pavement. The account was closed on December 31 by the bank. On November 12 the bank received a letter from Cahan and Co. stating that on the following Saturday they had a payment to make of £7,000 in gold sterling, and asking if the bank would be ready to let them have the amount in gold and notes on the Saturday before closing time, the charges for commissions and expenses, and also charges for the collection of North American dollar bills, and the rate of exchange. The request for £7,000 in gold and notes fell through, as we heard no more about it I produce five paid cheques.

HUGH MANCHA KILBY . I saw Woolford on or about November 8 or 9. He wanted a loan of £70 to release a small smelting works in Salmon's Lane, on which there was a charge for rent, and where he said some 30 tons of antimony ore was lying. He said it was sold to Mr. Champion for £5 5s., per ton. I said we wanted to see the sale note. I did not think it was worth the £70. The sale note was to be given as collateral security. I said if he would produce the sale note he should have the £70. Two or three days afterwards he came again and brought a letter from H. Champion and Co., stating they had bought the ore on behalf of clients abroad, and I gave him the money. He agreed to put the stuff into a wharf and give us the delivery order. He came again with Mr. Pinhorn, who had distrained upon the stuff for rent, and brought a warrant showing that 680 bags of ore were deposited at the wharf of Knight Brothers, Ratcliffe. That warrant was endorsed by Mr. Pinhorn, and on the faith of the warrant and the letter I directed Messrs. Buch and Co. 's cashier to draw cheques, one for £20 1s. 6d., which was handed to Mr. Pinhorn in payment of his rent, the other for £48 18s. 6d. being handed to Woolford. Both were endorsed by Woolford. It was at this request that the £70 was split up into these two sums. I produce the receipt Woolford gave for the £70. On January 31 I took the sample to Mr. Kitto, assayer and analytical chemist, 30 and 31, St. Swithins Lane. I went with Mr. Kitto to Knight Brothers' wharf, where the 680 bags were examined and samples taken. The opinion I formed of the stuff was that it was soot and bricks, with which one or two pieces of ore were mixed.

Cross-examined by Mr. Fulton. I had seen Champion, and when we had his letter did not trouble to make inquiries. We required the stuff to be put somewhere where it would not be taken away. The warrant speaks of it as antimonial ore. I was not in the office on December 17 when Woolford came and saw Mr. Klein. We were quits satisfied with the security at the time. No steps were taken until Seymour was being charged alone at the police court. I had previously seen antimony ore. It looks like rock with antimony showing in it. I have heard of oxide of antimony. Mr. Champion's letter described the stuff as antimonial lead gold ore. As we had a contract for the sale of the stuff at five guineas a ton it did not matter to us what the ore was at all.

OSCAR JOSEPH KLEIN . After my return from Russia on December 17 Woolford came to my office. I caught sight of him as I was going upstairs, and slipped round into the office. He touched his. hat, and said he had come to ask me if I would release the warrant on which he had received an advance during my absence, or would I accept his cheque. I said I had only just returned from Russia, and could not yet see daylight in the matter. I had heard what had happened about the £7,200. He said the ore was worth more than £250, corroborating what I had heard from my staff. I told him if he would bring me 250 sovereigns he could have the warrant, and I said,

"Please do not call here any more. "I did not see him any more until he was in custody. I gave directions for both the bulk and the sample to be analysed. The warrant came into the possession of my foreign bankers. and the matter being brought to my attention I directed it to be inquired into.

Crosse-examined by Mr. Pulton. I directed the stuff to be analysed to make sure that it was worth £200. It turned out not to be ore at all. My staff made an agreement with Woodford that all his dealings in ore should be submitted to my firm. I had suspicion that all was not right, and that this forgery or swindle business was being brought about by collusion from my office or with people who were calling at my office. Respecting the antimony mine in Cornwall, Woolford introduced somebody calling himself Crookshank. Just at this time antimony was rising rapidly. Mr. Crookshank introduced a Mr. Nicholls, to whom I paid a deposit on an agreement, but Nicholls has been unable to produce the lease up to this date. The deposit was £34, and which was to be turned into £340 on production of the lease.

BENEDICT KITTO , F. I. C, assayer and analytical chemist, 30 and 31, St. Swithin's Lane. I have had more than 30 years' experience in this business. On January 31 Mr. Kilby brought me a parcel of ore weighing about 2 lb. to assay for antimony. After looking at the stuff I said, "There is very little antimony in this." I broke three of the large stones. One is lead ore, another manganese, and the third a poor sample of zinc ore. I assayed the remainder of the parcel, and found it to contain 2.59 per cent, antimony. It could hardly be called antimony ore; it is ore containing a little antimony. Antimony is not commonly found in manganese ore and zinc ore. It occurs frequently with lead, but not as a distinct mineral. This is what is known as galena, which is a sulphide of lead, but when antimony occurs with lead it is a mineral called Jamesonite, which is very different from galena, and has not the perfect cubical cleavage we find with galena. I afterwards examined the bags, taking 20 at random. The contents were mostly a black material that looked like flue and dust remaining from the treatment of ore of some kind, and amongst it were pieces of brick and flints. I saw a bit or two of lead ore, and three or four stones containing a little antimony. The contents of the 20 bags were then thoroughly mixed, and I took a sample, which on assaying I found to contain 04 per cent, of antimony. That would not be merchantable at all. Nobody would fetch it away.

Cross-examined by Mr. Fulton. I did not assay for other metals. If there had been any quantity of lead we should have observed it in the assay. There were traces of lead, but we did not assay for anything but antimony. I should say there was nothing else of any value whatever. More or less silver is always found in lead ores, but we do not often find it in antimony ores. Antimonial lead ore would be the Jamesonite of which I spoke just now. Antimony ore is a distinct mineral containing both lead and antimony. In my opinion

antimony ore or antimonial ore is not a proper description of this material.

To the Common Serjeant. "Black Jack" is a miner's term for zinc ore which is found with lead. They frequently occur in the same lode in close proximity. Mineralogists call it zinc blend.

GLEN STEEL , manufacturer's agent, 63 and 64. Chancery Lane. In July, 1905, I visited the "Three Crowns" public-house at Rainham, in Essex, near the mouth of the creek, where I saw some 60 tons of stuff and had it removed to Hart's Wharf, Old Ford. Smelting works were opened at Maryland Road, Stratford, but the attempt to smelt the stuff failed and the works were shut up. In May, 1906, Woolford called at my office with the object of purchasing the remainder of the ore, which was still at Hart's Wharf—about 20 or 30 tons). He agreed to give £14 for the parcel. He paid there and then £9 in gold and a post-dated bill for £5, which was dishonoured, but afterwards I received £4 in two sums of £2 10s. and £1 10s.

Cross-examined by Mr. Fulton. I am not an ore expert, but buy ore sometimes. I bought the 60 tons for £50, the idea being to resell it to a smelting firm. I do not know that smelting is not a proper process to apply to such ore as that. I was glad to sell the remainder cheap to avoid charges. The smelting people acted on advice, and no complaint was made to me that I had sold them a lot of rubbish. There was no mixing with the ore at Old Ford of the cinders and slag from the smelting works to my knowledge.

GEORGE HART , wharfinger, Old Ford Road. In May, 1906, there were some 20 or 30 tons of ore lying at my wharf, on which £15 11s. was due for charges. Woolford and Steel came to the wharf and I agreed to accept £9 in settlement. Woolford directed me to cart it to Salmon's Lame. The cost of carting (£3 15s.) has not been paid. Steel paid the £9.

(Friday, March 22.)

GERARD SANDS , formerly trading a 4 J. Gerard and Co., ore merchants, 1, Telegraph Street. At the beginning of last year I carried on business at 77, Salomon's Lane with Woolford, who at that time was using both 1, Telegraph Street and 77, Salmon's Lane for the business of the Comptoir Géologique and the Gold and Silver Complex Ore Reduction Company, of which he was managing director. In May, 1906. Some 30 tons of material were deposited at 77, Salmon's Lane, which Woolford said had been bought through Grant Seymour from Mr. Glen Steel. At that time I had no personal knowledge of Grant Seymour, but afterwards I constantly saw him and Woolford together. They were usually at the "Mecca," in Watling Street, where I used to go to see Woolford. That went on for two months. Of the lot of 30 tons 10 tons were sold to Mr. Carpenter. The rest remained at 77, Salmon's Lane for some months and was then removed to 58, Salmon's Lane, and for the purpose of removal was put into bags and remained until seized by Mr. Pinhorn for rent.

Cross-examined by Mr. Ruegg. I was not Woolford's partner, but we had a working arrangement as far as smelting was concerned. I have known Woolford, I should think, for 18 months. If there had been profits on smelting we should have shared them certainly. I never smelted at all. I knew that Woolford and Seymour were engaged in business transactions together. I had no business relations with Seymour.

Cross-examined by Mr. Fulton. During the 17 or 18 months I knew Woolford he was doing business in ore which I had nothing to do with. I would not describe the material at Salmon's Lane as rubbish. Part of it had been through a furnace. Putting ore through a furnace does not necessarily extract from it ail the ore it contains. A large part of it had not been treated. Part of it could be described as lead gold ore, but not the bulk. The best of the ore was taken away in the two tons. £3 per ton is a low price for antimony ore, and I should not expect to find ore very rich in antimony for that sum. I was present when Mr. Klien came to Salmon's Lane to take samples of what remained, but I could not say when it was.

Re-examined. I understood from Woolford that he had paid £30 for this ore. I paid Woolford over £200 in respect of the smeltng arrangement.

To Mr. Fulton. I have not asked for a return of the £200. The matter is not yet ready to commence. The suggestion that I have been defrauded of £200 is wholly untrue. I put £200 into a business which has never been begun.

ALFRED VICTOR PINHORN , estate agent and bailiff, Commercial Road. While Woolford was itenant of 58, Salmon's Lane, in November, 1906, I levied a distress for rent and seized a number of 'bags of material. (Witness also gave evidence as to attending at the office of Messrs. Buch and Co. on November 13 and receiving a cheque for £21 1s. 6d.)

Cross-examined by Mr. Fulton, In consequence, of a communication from Messrs. Buch and Co., I took the bags to the New Sun Wharf.

GEORGE HENRY WALTERS , trading as Williams and Co., carmen and contractors, deposed to removing 680 bags of material from 77, Salmon's Lane, to Knight's Wharf, Limehouse, and JOHN JOHNSON, in the employ of Knight Brothers, to receiving them.

HENRY CHAMPION .I identify the letter stating that the ore had been bought for clients abroad at £5 5s. per ton. Woolford offered me the ore, describing it as antimonial lead ore, and said it contained 30 per cent, of metal, and he would submit a sample cwt. bag to my lients to be assayed, and, if satisfactory, I should have the delivery order, or if I introduced my customers 'to him they should have the delivery order. After a time I wrote the letter produced. I had two clients, but I had a reason for not disclosing them to him.

Cross-examined by Mr. Ruegg. I never got the sample cwt I had no client abroad. I decline to say for whom I bought the ore. I had a customer in London.

Cross-examined by Mr. Fulton. At this time antimony was going up by leaps and bounds, and speculative business was being done. The statement that I had bought it of or a client was a statement of fact.

Re-examined. I was one of Seymour's references when he took Maitland Park.

To the Common Serjeant. There was no description or specification of the quality of the antimonial ore. The quality was to be ascertained by assay. No time was specified for delivery.

KENNETH VERE DOLLEYMORE , solicitor, Golden Square. Mr. Robinson banded me the cheque for £10 drawn by Mr. Grant Seymour in favour of Woolford. I went to the offices of Holt and Co., described as the Bank, about the beginning of November. I presented the cheque, and was referred to drawer. I saw a man whom I now know to be Grant Seymour. I asked if Mr. Grant Seymour was in, and was informed he was not, but might be back in the afternoon. I asked for an appointment to see him, and I said I come with reference to the cheque. I believe I showed it to him, out am not quite certain. I had written to all three people, and given them notice of the dishonour. When I left I asked him to write and make an appointment.

Cross-examined by Mr. Ruegg. Mr. Robinson handed me the cheque in part payment of the costs of his lease. The cheque was endorsed to me for the whole of the £10. It was endorsed by James Woolford, Crookshank, Robinson, and myself. I took it to be of the value of £10. He did not tell me that he had only advanced £5 on the cheque. When the cheque was dishonoured I wrote to Grant Seymour, and had a letter in reply, stating that the terms of the arrangement under which the cheque was given were that it was not to be negotiated until certain goods forming the consideration of the payment had been delivered. I do not accent the suggestion that I had mistaken Seymour for Walters. I do not know Walters by name or sight. I did not see Seymour again until I saw him at the police court.

Re-examined. A bundle of photographs was shown me, out of which I identified the photograph of Seymour.

Sergeant SARGENT, recalled, gave evidence of the identification of Seymour by last witness from the photograph.

Inspector OTTAWAY, recalled, gave evidence of two other documents found at Seymour's private address. One was a receipt of £3 from Seymour by Holt and Co. in respect of his tenancy of the office and the other a notification to Seymour by Holt and Co. that in respect of the sale to Soame, Montague, and Co., of 400 tons of antimony ore, it would be impossible to grant a commission on the transaction, the price having been cut down to such an extent as to make it impossible to encroach upon the narrow margin of profit left.

Sergeant ANDERSON, recalled, spoke to receiving from Mr. Brett a list of the numbers of the notes issued to Holt and Co., which has since been registered at the Bank of England. £l,200 of the notes had subsequently come in, some being endorsed.

Cross-examined by Mr. Ruegg. I have done my beat to trace where the notes came from, and have not been able to trace a farthing to prisoners.

Inspector JAMES MURPHY, recalled, spoke to obtaining in Paris the key with which Inspector Ottaway opened Holt's safe. Walters claimed to be a Frenchman, and undoubtedly is. When witness read the charge of conspiracy to Woolford on February 20, Woolford replied, "Great Scott I wish I had had the money. Do not you think that Mr. Klein, of Messrs Buch and Co., and Holt divided the money between them? It is curious that Mr. Klein went to Moscow a few days before the money was paid over."

Mr. Eustace Fulton contended that in order that the acts of co-conspirators might be evidence against a person charged with them it was necessary first to establish an agreement directed to a common design and here, he submitted, there was no evidence from which the jury could properly infer that there was such am agreement so directed.

The Common Serjeant: It is merely a question whether there is evidence that Woolford was taking part without guilty knowledge. There is plenty of evidence, of course, that he was taking part in a deal which we may call dishonest; it is only a question whether he was acting honestly or with criminal knowledge.

Mr. Fulton: There is plenty of evidence that he was acting in the deal with Mr. Klein, but in my submission there is no evidence that he was acting in the other deal with Herbert Carpenter.

The Common Serjeant: I do not see any difference between the two.

Mr. Fulton: There is nothing in the evidence from which the jury can properly draw the conclusion that he was a guilty party to this conspiracy, and that Doing; the case I submit that there is no case to go to the jury on the count of conspiracy to defraud.

The Common Serjeant: I cannot stop the case on one count. There is evidence against him on at least one of the counts.

Mr. Fulton said that on the count charging Woolford with obtaining £70 from Klein he did not make any submission.

Mr. Ruegg did not proceed with a similar submission as to the conspiracy on behalf of Seymour.

(Defence.)

JAMBS WOOLFORD (prisoner, on oath). I am a metallurgist and miner, and have had a long experience. I have a process of my own for metal extraction, which was tested by Messrs. Johnson, Johnson and Sons, who are the assayers to the Mint. I first came into communication with the firm of Holt and Co. through requiring about 14 or 15 months ago a small parcel of antimonial copper ore in order to make a demonstration before people connected with the Amalgamated Copper Association. I approached Champion, and he gave me an introduction to Seymour as a party capable of finding that ore; he introduced me to Holt and Co., and that deal went through. I had other small transactions. Holt and Co. having antimonial ore carrying 2 ox. of gold to the ton, I made an offer to them to take the entire output of a Spanish mine at £2 10s. per ton. I understood Holts' had about 800 tons of antimonial ore for sale. My French is very imperfect, and Seymour acted as interpreter, and I entered into a firm contract to buy the whole at 8s. per unit, on the basis of 50 per cent.

to 60 percent.—equal 50 percent, and upwards. Antimony was at the time going up by leaps and bounds in the market. I got it cheap because I undertook also to take 18,000 tons at 20s. on a basis of 10 percent, to 20 percent. I have a large firm of West End solicitors who would have backed me—I did not intend myself to take up that purchase, but would have tried to find people to buy at higher prices, and take the difference myself as profit. I made the acquaintance of Klien later on through Messrs. Coutts, Burn, and Coutts, Limited. I knew that he was anxious to buy ore, and introduced to his notice this contract or agreement I had with Holt and Co. I asked him what amount of money he could find, and used the vulgar expression, "You cannot do these things with 2 1/2 "He said he could find up to £97,000. I said I had two small contracts of 400 tons and we had better start with small contracts. In consequence, through Klien, Buch and Co. and Holt and Co. were put in communication with each other, and my contract with Holt and Co. was assigned to Buch. After that it was only a question of waiting for the deal to go through and getting my commission. I thought there Was £12 a ton to be made, of which I was to get one third. With regard to the meeting at Messrs. Bellord's office, I attended at the request of Kirchhove, and being a person who was going to make a profit out of the deal, did everything I could to make things go smoothly. Beyond that I took no part in the proceedings. An agreement was entered into between me and Mr. Klein with regard to some mining property. That is the transaction of which he complains that he has as yet made no money, but you cannot attack a lode to-day and get £2,000 or £3,000 out of in a night. With regard to Mr. Carpenter, I was introduced to him by Crookshank. Fourteen or fifteen mouths ago Carpenter was at constant visitor at the office of Gerard and Co., his firm of Carpenter and Berry being then in liquidation. I was dealing with Hughes and Shemery, of Billiter Street, for a parcel of 20 tons, and I suggested that Gerard's should go to Pratt and Son, of Queen Street, Cheapside, who would take lowgrade ore, with 12 per cent, or 13 per cent, of sulphide of antimony, when no other smelters in England would, but Gerard's could not find any money, and that fell through. The English smelters have not yet the methods of dealing with such ore. Carpenter said he could find £15,000 through a Mr. Whitehead, a linen draper, and asked me to bring some portion of Gerard's business to his office. Pratt's bought this parcel of ore at £7 10s. per ton through Carpenter. The 10 tons of ore sold to Hallett and Fry was brought from Ayrshire Mine in Scotland. Seymour came to know Carpenter by meeting him at the "Mecca." They were not introduced; it was my object to keep them apart and keep the business in my own hands. Carpenter bought 10 tons of ore from Middleton, but could not get delivery. That is the 10 tons which I took him to Salmon's Lane to see. It was a Broken Hill complex antimonial lead ore, known all over the world, and cannot be melted, but must be volatilised or sublimed. The zinc

is obtained by smashing up the ore, putting it into retorts and distilling it. Harry Furniss, the well-known editor, offered me some works at Old Ford and the whole plant for £50, and Carpenter went down with me to look at it. We went to Old Ford before we went to Salmon's Lane. At Old Ford we saw a parcel of mixed ore containing silver, lead, and oxi-sulphide of antimony; there were some South African tailings, carrying 2 oz. of gold to the ton. The ore we afterwards saw at Salmon's Lane had been removed from Old Ford. As I knew that Hallett's would only take the oxi-sulphide, the ore was picked over. I heard afterwards from Carpenter that Halletis had only accepted 9 cwt. Mr. Nelson handed me a cheque for £30 in Throgmorton Street in respect of this transaction. Carpenter was bird up, and could not find the money. We could not have got the ore without it on 'account of there being some charges. Nelson was to have £5 out of the deal. The cartage for the removal of the ore has not yet been paid, but I gave Mr. Steel £9 out of the £30, and with that he paid the charge. This is the first I have heard of the agreement between Holt and Carpenter for the 400 tons. As regards the charge of obtaining £70 from Mr. Klein, that transaction originated in this way. Very easily I get hard up and short of cash, and it was known to Mr. Klien, who told Mr. Kilby, and Mr. Kilby said, "Well, I do not see why a fellow like Woolfard should go without cash. "Klien told me he would go and see the firm of Buch and Co. and see what could be done for Mr. Later he told me he had seen them, and he could get me £60 on the ore. This conversation took place at the buffet at Fenchurch Street Station, and the reference was to the ore lying at Salmon's Lane. The next step in the bargain was to ascertain the amount I had to pay Messrs. Pinhorn and Pinhorn. Besides that £20 to them I had £10 to pay to smelters, and £60 I thought would hardly be enough, and we increased it to £70. Klien had the brokers in at the time at his private house. We afterwards saw Mr. Kilby, who said. "You shall have the advance on the ore" on condition that Mr. Pinhorn should bring the 26 tons to a wharf. Kilby then said. "We have got the warrant, but we should like to have further evidence that the ore can be sold. Have you sold any portion of this ore before? "and I said, "Yes; through Messrs. Champion and Co." "Well," he said, "provided you get as undertaking from Champion and Co. to sell this ore on your or our behalf you will have the money to-day." As a consequence of that conversation I went to see Mr. Champion, and asked him if his buyer in Brussels or Antwerp would take this parcel off me. He said, "Yea; they are making inquiries for a low-grade ore for the making of oxides, and I think this will just fit in. "He asked what I would take for the ore, and I said £7 10s. He said he did not think he could get me that, end after haggling £5 5s. was agreed upon, and he gave me the letter of sale, which I showed later to Mr. Kilby. Klien was present on that occasion. Samples of the ore were taken and the cheques were drawn. Mr. Champion's letter correctly set out the transaction as between him and myself. Antimonial ore, as in the case of the

Santa Cecilia Mine, may carry 15 per cent, of copper, 25 percent arsenic, and one per cent, of antimony. Where antimony is present in slight quantities the treatment is different; you are assaying for other metals. Antimonial ore cannot be properly treated in this country because the smelters here go for the displacement of the antimony by precipitation by iron. The oxidation process is the one that should be used. At present I have no smelting works, but my process has been satisfactorily reported on. The sooty matter spoken of as being contained in the material is the blue teroxide of antimony, obtained from Hues as the bye-product of smelting. The material spoken of as looking like bricks is the yellow oxide of antimony. As to the suggestion that I was taking part in the fraud upon Buch and Co., I have never had a halfpenny of the large sum handed over to Walters. I believed there were bills of lading.

Cross-examined. The stuff I wanted to sell to Mr. Champion for £7 10s. per ton was the stuff I had bought from Mr. Glen Steel for £14, and upon 10 tons of which I obtained £30 from Mr. Nelson. I did not tell Sands I had bought the 26 tons from Steel through Grant Seymour. I did not tell Carpenter that Seymour had 10 tons of stuff to sell and show him a sample of it. I did not introduce Seymour to Carpenter as a man who could supply a quantity of ore. Carpenter introduced himself. I introduced him to Middleton. Carpenter never went to Old Ford. He went to Maryland Point, where there was nothing but a disused factory. The only place at which I showed him ore was Salmon's Lane. I did not ask him to pay workmen to do the picking. I will swear that when I went to Mr. Kilby in November I did not tell him I wanted an advance on stuff I had sold at £5 5s. per ton; the bargain had not been struck then I never did ask for a loan. It was Klien broke the ice. Mr. Klien asked me to go and borrow money on the stuff by Heavens he did. I was hard up at the time; I was very often. The sale to Champion was, I say, an absolutely genuine sale. We could not wait for the money from the purchasers as the landlord swept in everything. It is 14 or 15 months since I first knew Holt, who was, I suppose, then carrying on business at the Wool Exchange. No transactions with Holt ever came off. The only stuff I had from Holt was, I think, 4 cwt. of 25 percent, ore, which justified me in going on. I was very frequently in communication with Holt, but we could never get on; he was too hasty for me and never spoke English, but very quick in French, and I got the interpretation from Mr. Seymour or Walters. I did not always find Seymour at Holt's place. I knew nothing about Holt's business except that he was in communication for Spanish and Portuguese ores. No particular mine was mentioned. I have had large dealings in mines. I was just buying a mine in Spain—two—when I was arrested, though I could not pay Mr. Pinhorn. We buy mines in shares, and metals were then at a high price. I think it would be safe to say I have known Crookshank for two years. I gave Crookshank a cheque for £10 drawn by Grant

Seymour in favour of James Woolford upon the eminent bank of B. Holt and Co. Crookshank is concerned in the Ayrshire Antimony Mine in Scotland. I paid him a cash deposit on the dumps. The cheque was in respect of two tons of antimony ore he had sent forward. Crookshank did not tell me that he bought £4 of clothing with it and had 10s. into the bargain. I had another cheque (produced") from Grant Seymour. That is my endorsement, but I cannot say what I did with the cheque. Seymour had contracted to supply some antimony ore from the minis in Cornwall, and samples of this ore had to be brought forward. Carpenter and Middleton had contracted to finance a man to work the mine. As samples of ore were required Seymour asked me to endorse the cheques to raise the money. I did not send Grant Seymour any ore. With regard to the receipt by Seymour for the two cheques for £10 in payment of one ton of antimony ore, the cheques to be held over until the delivery of the ore, the explanation is that Seymour had to supply a two ton sample of antimony ore, and I said I would get it for him from Crookshank from the Ayrshire mine, upon which I had paid a cash deposit. Seymour and I were both hard up, and to raise money Seymour drew a cheque, which I endorsed We had a party who, on receipt of the cheque, was to send forward the ore, and, having the ore, we should have a chance of meeting the cheques. I have heard to-day that the cheque given to Crookshank for the Ayrshire business was changed with Mr. Robinson of Ealing. Grant Seymour and I spoke about the matter several times. He said, as the ore had not come forward, I must get that cheque from Crookshank. I spoke to Crookshank about it, and he said, "It is all Tight; you will have the ore. "Crookahank did tell me he had had £5 on the cheque. Seymour did not tell me that a solicitor had written him at the Grange, Maitland Park, complaining on behalf of his client, who was a holder for value. Holt's office was well furnished, but had not the appearance of a Lombard Street bank. It may have looked like a loan office. I never heard of Emanuel Cahan until this case came on, or of the shipping company through whom this antimony was coming. I do not know that the day before Holt and Co. contracted to sell me 400 tons they had contracted tot sell 400 tins to Mr. Carpenter; that was rather behind my back. I contracted to take the whole 800 tons.

Re-examined. Maryland Point was a factory run by Harry Furniss, the editor, and disused. There was 1 £ tons of slag lying about which has since been made up into the roads. It is not possible I should have told Can; enter that was the stuff. Crookshank did not use the cheque for the purpose I gave it to him but used it to finance himself.

JAMBS HENRY GRANT SEYMOUR (prisoner, on oath). I commenced business as a commission agent in London in 1900, but have spent several years on the West Coast of Africa on and off, and was at the war and obtained a medal as a naval volunteer. As nearly as I can remember, I first came to know Holt and Co. in September, October,

or November, 1905, being introduced by a Mr. Tivison. It was in July last year that I asked them whether they were able to supply any ores. I had previously been requested to introduce Messrs. Holt and Co. to a firm of stockbrokers in the City for the purpose of disposing of some £600 or £700 of Spanish interior bonds not quoted on the London Stock Exchange, and that transaction was carried through. I received a commission of £10, half of which I had to pay to the gentleman who introduced me to the brokers. When I spoke to them about sulpplying ore I had no reason to doubt their being a responsible and respectable firm. When Woolford originally mentioned to me that he was a buyer of antimony ore, and particularly large quantities of high grade, I asked him to indicate to me the principal sources from which antimony ore was derived. Up to that time I knew nothing about antimony. He told me the principal countries were North America, Spain, and Asia Minor. I went to Holt about the matter because he was a Spaniard, at least, so he told Mr. Holt said they would communicate with some friends in Spain and let me know in due course. Some four or six weeks after that Mr. Holt told me that friends of his in Spain, who owned mines in the interior, but were not in a position to spend a lot of money out of pocket, would be prepared to forward 800 tons of accumulated ore to England to his order subject to the bills of lading being taken up on arrival on the basis of 75 percent, cash and the balance after delivery. I then in troduced Woolford and Mr. Carpenter. I should say I had known Woolford since the beginning of the year. He was introduced to me as a smelter and ore merchant. I never heard of Woolford agreeing to buy more than 400 tons of ore. I took a commission note from Woolford at £1 per ton, payable on the completion of the transaction I also took a commission note from Carpenter at 10s. per ton, so that on the transactions being completed I should have received £600. From the first Holt stipulated that the payment of the 75 per cent, should be in cash, and it is distinctly started in the contracts, but that excited no suspicion in my mind, because both parties required a letter of guarantee with the bills of lading to hold them immune from any possible loss, so that really there was no risk if 'the document, were genuine. I knew Walters as Holt's confidential clerk. Holt and Co. informed me that they had bought the goodwill of Emanuel Cahan and Co. As far as I know there was no one but Holt in Holt; and Co. I knew enough about Woolford to know that he himself was not a man of substantial means and capable of carrying out such a bi £ contract. Beyond introducing the people in the hope of getting commission I had nothing to do with the transaction. At that time I had no office, and when Holt and Co. were taking these offices in the Wool Exchange, and in view of the fact that Holt and Co. only consisted of Mr. Holt and his clerk, and they had three fairly large rooms, with a lot of accommodation, I tasked Mr. Holt whether he would be prepared for a reasonable consideration to give me such accommodation as I required, and he agreed. The consideration was

£3 per month, for which I bad the use of his stationery and typewriters and every facility. I was there a little over a month, and left in October because of a dispute with Mr. Holt. I cannot tell if Holt was often to be found at Cahan's offices, as I went there hut once in my life. It is not correct, as a liftman has said, that I went and asked for Cahan's two or three times a week, but, curiously enough, I went to see people in the office over Cahan's. I can tell you about the dispute in two words. Woolford agreed to take up two parcels of ore of 50 tons and 20 tone, but the person who was to finance Woolford failed him, and in consequence Holt declared that Woolford was a auricn, and practically forbade me to do 'business with him, and in consequence I left. With regard to the first 400 tons, it Was repre sented to me that the documents would arrive by Saturday, November 17, and be available for Messrs. Buch and Co. Mr. Kirchhove accordingly attended on that day to complete the transaction. Kirchhove sent for me, and when. I got to Holt's there were also present Holt, Walters, and Woolford. Mr. Kirchhove, in a state of great excitement, explained to me that he had come to Holt's with a marked cheque, but Holt insisted upon cash. After communicating with Mincing Lane by telephone, Kirchhove agreed to return on the following Monday and complete the transaction with bank notes. Holt conceived the very foolish idea that Buch and Co. wanted to lay a trap for him by causing him to deposit the documents, and than intended to keep him dangling for his money, and consequently, as he told me, at the expiration of the moment appointed, having previously made arrangements to sell this ore in France, he rushed downstairs to the; telegraph office in the Wool Exchange and wired to Paris to sell. At the interview on the Monday I was not present, but was told that Holt had gone to Paris. On the 20th Walters told me that Buch and Co. had called at the office with £7,200, of banks: notes to show their bona fides, as it might appear from what transpired on the previous Saturday that Holt's were under the impression that Buch and Co had not got this amount of money. I was also told that to Holt's (profound surprise they had been served with a writ and notice of an interim injunction, which was for hearing on the 23rd, at the instance of Mr. Klein. As to how it was I came to be at the meeting at the solicitor's office, Mr. Woolford and a Mr. Hall called on me at my office in Finsbury Pavement and asked me whether I could bring pressure to hear on Holt to enter into a specific agreement with Buch and Co. to deliver to them the next 400 tons of ore subject to the withdrawal of the proceedings. I was induced to go to the meeting because Kirchhove had arranged to give me £50 if I would enter into Buch and Co. 's service in so far as the negotiation of this transaction was concerned, and do all in my power that the second contract should not escape them as the previous one was alleged to have escaped; they were extremely keen on getting it. Mr. Kirchhove with Klien and Woolford met me at the Cafe Lyons in Gracechurch Street, told me that he was satisfied the only wise course was to settle this dispute amicably, as

if they continued the litigation there would be no earthly chance of their getting any ore from Spain at all, and that this litigation had only been brought about in consequence of Mr. Klein's extremely hasty temperament, and that if they met at a solicitor's office and deliberately thrashed out the whole matter Mr. Klein would no doubt see that no earthly object could be gained by continuing the litigation. Having had that explanation, I went to the solicitors with Mr. Kirchhove, Mr. Klien, and Woolford, and it was there agreed that Buch and Co. were to have the next lot. I most certainly believed that Holt and Co. would deliver the next lot. As to the shipping company they were to come by I naturally said I did not know; of course, nobody knew. Mr. Synnott's 'account of the meeting is in substance correct. It was towards the end of November that I heard the second lot of documents was about to arrive.

(Monday, March 25.)

JAMES HENRY GRANT SEYMOUR , further examined. I never saw the name of the Spanish shipping company at Cahan's office. There was no name at all when I went there. I have never had any transaction of any sort or description with Mr. Carpenter except that I introduced him to Holt regarding the £400. Captain Whitson offered me 10 tons of ore, in May, I believe, said to be 15 per cent ore. He said it was at a smelting works at Maryland Point. The proposition was that I should inspect this ore, and if it suited me I was to buy it for cash. I went there but there was no ore. Before going I offered it to Woolford, and he went to inspect also, but found no ore. That was the end of it, so far as I was concerned. I did not know then that Woolford had obtained £30 from a man named Nelson—I know it now. I have never heard of Mr. Steel until this case and had nothing to do with Woolford's transaction with him. I have no knowledge of any transaction that Mr. Carpenter was concerned in. I met him at the Mecca and introduced him to Holt and Co. I took a commission note from Carpenter for £400—1 should have been entitled to £400 if Woolford had got me first 400 tons, and £200 from Carpenter for the second 400. I should get no commission from Carpenter until the 400 tons had been delivered, assayed, and passed by Claudet. I understood Holt accepted Carpenter as a responsible person who could have carried out the contract. I have reason to say the latter had no means whatever, though I understood he was going to find backers, but he refused to give their names. Previous to that he had asked Holt's to cash post-dated cheques, and that made such a bad impression that Holt told me he had no faith in Carpenter's personal ability to carry through the contract, and presumed he intended to hawk the contract about. It is true I showed Messrs. Buch and Co. 's representatives on December 5 a telegram from Seville saving that the documents were despatched. I do not know whether Klien was there at the time. The telegram was brought to me by

Walters. At that time I had had a disagreement with Holt and had left him. I believed the telegram from Spain was genuine. Klien told me that since Holt and Co. persisted in declining to reveal the name of the shipping company or the vessels carrying the cargo, he had on Buch. and Co. 's instructions compiled a list of the shipping on. panics trading between England and Spain, and if on presentation of the documents they purtported to come from one of those firms they were prepared to complete immediately; if they did not they would demand sufficient time to enable the London and Westminster Bank to make inquiries as to the status of the company. I took it for granted that these precautions were being carried out, as I believed Buch and Co. were men of business. As regards the commission note from Woolford for £400, my original idea was to get a commission note from Holt and Co. direct They absolutely refused to give me one. The two contracts were drawn by the buyers, and those which are put in from Holt are verbatim copies of the contracts put in by Carpenter and Woolford as drafts. I did show Klein the copy of telegram from Seville. At that time I was trying (through Mr. Klien) to interest Buch and Co. in another mine in Cornwall—the Antimonial Lead Mine. Mr. Klien told me he had arranged with Buch and Co. to go down with me, following the completion of the 400 ton contract, and go over the mine and complete the transaction. The question of the £100 arose out of my complaining to Kilby and Kirchhove that the £50 which the latter had promised had not been paid. They paid me something, but not the £50. I received £12 and a fortnight later £10—the day before the perpetration of this fraud. That came from Buch and Co. In the week following the payment of £12 I had several calls at my office from Kilby and Kirchhove, and, finding the balance of the £50 was not feeing paid, I complained to them that I was not being fairly treated; then Kilby offered to pay me £100 after they had received these documents and after I had performed all the work I was intended to do. This offer went through Klien, because Buch and Co. did not wish to appear as principals. I stood to make £700 if this had been an honest deal. I made nothing except the payments by Mr. Klien. In regard to the dishonoured cheques, Mr. Woolford told me a friend of his had large quantities of ore dumps (antimonial lead ore on the lumps) in Scotland, and as a Mr. Hall wanted to buy ore of that kind I arranged with Woolford that two tons of this ore should be sent to me as a bulk sample. The two cheques were in payment of this. I heard that Woolford parted with one of these cheques to a man named Crookshank, and I wrote him a very strong letter complaining of his laving parted with the cheque in violation (the terms of his receipt, vhich were that the cheques should be held over till the delivery of the ore. I was under the mistaken impression that the receipt would be a defence for me if these cheques were negotiated before I obtained my goods. Mr. Robinson did not come and see me at Holt's office after the cheque was dishonoured. I had left Holt's early in October. I told Walters that in the event of either of the cheques

being presented before I told him to meet them they were to be marked "Stopped payment."I have never been in charge of Holt's offices alone. I first heard of the cheque being presented from Mr. Dolleymore by a letter addressed to me, "c. o. B. Holt and Co.," which I received on October 19. I wrote the same day explaining the circumstances. Then I received a similar communication about the other cheques, which I answered in the same way. Until Holt's got this money on December 7 I believed they were a respectable firm. I gave a reference from Holt and Co. to the tenants at the Wool Exchange, whose office they took over. There is a reference from Champion, bearing his signature. I do not remember Champion handing me some of his sheets of paper (in reference to some French agency we were going into) because he was not conversant with the French language. Holt had promised to procure a French agency for Champion. There was no necessity for me to have Champion's paper. He speaks French as well as I do. I have heard him discussing complicated financial business in French. In respect to the reference to Middleton, the body of the letter is in my writing. On August 13 I called at Middleton's office in Cannon Street, and was shown an application from the City Offices Company for a reference about Emanuel Cahan and Co. Middleton was in a great hurry to get off and asked me, "What shall I write in reply? Do you mind writing cut a draft?" etc. I wrote a draft and left it on his desk. That is all I know about it. In regard to the letter about Debouchere Warner and Co., the only reason they were mentioned was to substantiate the reason why Mr. Carpenter did not wish to give further reterences about Charles Phillips and Co., because he had been severely hit financially in consequence of his disappointment over transactions he had had with Debouchere Warner and Co. I had given no reference to the latter. I knew a Mr. Collin who traded as Debouchere Warner and Co. He asked me if I could put him in touch with somebody in Germany whom he wished to use as a general correspondent. I gave him the name of Kortwich, a very old friend of mine, in Berlin. I was not responsible for that introduction, as the Berlin people made their own inquiries and did not rely on anything I did in the matter. I received a letter from them on February 12, the day of my arrest. In regard to the bills found at Holt's office, I know nothing whatever about them. It is not true that on my arrest I bent towards the fire as though I were going to burn some papers. I handed them to the officer and insisted on his reading them. I told him I had only introduced the parties for a commission. I never saw the forged bills of lading and other documents and had no idea they were forged. Since Holt got his money I have never seen him, nor Walters either. I have not had a penny of it, and never made any arrangement with them to benefit through any fraud such as this.

Cross-examined. I first saw Holt at the "Mecca," in Watling Street. I used to see Holt with Woolford there occasionally. I

did not know Holt as of any address but the Wool Exchange I saw him about once a month between October, 1905, and July, 1906, as a casual customer at the "Mecca. "I had had business with him before I gave him the reference. I introduced him to a broker, but I do not know where his office was then. On the strength of that transaction I wrote the letter of introduction, saying I had known him a considerable time as a highly respectable man, possessed of means, apparently, etc. Under the circumstances, I considered it a justifiable letter—for the purpose. It was about June, 1906, when I introduced Holt to the broker, and made Walters's acquaintance about then. I took him to be an Englishman. I had never seen Emanuel Cahan. Holt told me he was dead. When I gave the reference about E. Cahan and Co. I did so because the business was an oldestablished one, I was told. I do not deny that the reference was a grave indiscretion on my part, tout it was open to Mr. Middleton to adjust it as he thought fit. I wrote it as a draft. I admit that I put words into the mouths of Middleton and Co. which, as regards them, are absolutely false. Taking into consideration that this reference was only for the purpose of taking an office, a purely nominal matter, it was simply an indiscretion. I did not know Charles Phillips at Argyle Place. I saw Collin at Charles Phillips's once or twice—at Finsbury Pavement. I nave no knowledge of Mr. Doctor going to Charles Phillips's and seeing the man he knew to be Debouchere Warner. It is quite probable Collin (the man referred to) was at Charles Phillips's. It is untrue that I introduced Debouchere Warner to some German dealers. I do not know anything about their getting 1,258 marks worth of burners from a German firm. The documents were in my pocket, but I just glanced at teem. I did introduce Chas. Phillips and Co. to Kortwich, and I knew Debouchere Warner had got some burners from Germany. I did not introduce Debouchere Warner to Kortwich. I have a faint recollection of seeing Sands at the Mecca. I knew Woolford was frequenting an office called "Gerard and Co." 1, Telegraph Street. He told me he was "The Gold and Silver Complex Ore Reduction Company," and the managing director of "The Comptoir Geologique de la Guyane Anglaise." I am quite clear that I bought one or two tons of antimony from Woolford; I did not hear him deny that, and I have no recollection of Woolford saying that the two cheques I gave him were for the purpose of raising money. Two blank cheques were given to me by Walters as a special arrangement for the specific purpose of figuring as security. I did not know Crookshank; I never heard of him until this case. It is quite untrue that Robinson saw me at the bank on October 25; he has mistaken Walters for me. I never went to Holt's until the end of October. I never saw Robinson until he appeared at the police court. Mr. Dolleymore has also made a mistake in identifying me as the man he saw at Holt's. I was on pretty friendly terms with Charles Philips. In May, when I first met Woolford and these other people I was living in Coram Street, W.C.; my business then was the same

as it has always boon commission agent; I had no office then. There is no question now that Holt is Cahan; Holt was everybody; Walters was simply a clerk. As to the interview at Bellord's office, Mr. Synnott is mistaken in saying that I there said, "I represent Holt and Co. "; no one was there representing Holt and Co., but Buch and Co. had a letter from them offering them a further consignment of ore if they would withdraw the litigation.

Verdict, both defendants, Not guilty of conspiracy; Seymour, Not guilty on the indictment for obtaining money by false pretences; Woolford, Guilty of obtaining £70 by false pretences. The police proved that Woolford was convicted at Lewes Assizes in October. 1904, of certain offences under the Bankruptcy Act. The Common Serjeant, taking into consideration the fact that Woolford had been in prison for six weeks, passed a sentence of Three months' hard labour.


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