JOHN BURNS, WILLIAM HYDE CHAMPION, HENRY MAYERS HYNDMAN, JOHN EDWARD WILLIAMS.
5th April 1886
Reference Numbert18860405-465
VerdictNot Guilty > unknown

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465. JOHN BURNS, WILLIAM HYDE CHAMPION, HENRY MAYERS HYNDMAN , and JOHN EDWARD WILLIAMS were indicted for unlawfully and maliciously uttering seditious words of and concerning Her Majesty's Government, with intent to incite to riot. Other Counts, with intent to stir up ill-will between Her Majesty's subjects, and Other Counts for conspiracy to effect the said objects.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL (SIR CHARLES RUSSELL), with MESSRS. POLAND, R. S. WRIGHT, and CHARLES MATHEWS PROSECUTED; MR. THOMPSON defended Burns and Williams; Champion and Hyndman defended themselves.

JOHN WHILE . I am a reporter to the Times newspaper, and have been so for about 24 years—on Wednesday, 3rd February last, I went to a meeting at the Holborn Town Hall—I there saw the four defendants on the platform with others—Champion was the chairman—they all four addressed the meeting—it was a meeting called by the body called "The social Democratic Federation," to call for measures to meet the wants of the unemployed; it had reference to a meeting that was to take place on the following Monday in Trafalgar Square—Champion called on those who were desirous of seeing effective measures taken, to carry out the resolutions that were submitted to the meeting, to go to 36, Hatton wall on the Sunday night to concert practical measures in regard to the wants of the unemployed, and in direct reference to the meeting to be held in Trafalgar Square the following day—I should think, roughly speaking, about 1,500 to 2,000 people were at the Town Hall meeting, the place was very full—I took a note of Mr. Hyndman's speech on that occasion. (This was objected to and not pursued.) I did not go to Hatton all on Sunday—on Monday, the 8th, I went to Trafalgar Square about half-past 1 in accordance with instructions I received from the Times office—when I got there I saw a great number of persons assembled in the square, but not so many as were there subsequently—they were standing all over the square, but the greater number were round the Nelson monument—the meeting of the unemployed was to be at 3 o'clock, it was called by a different body—I did not see any of the defendants

there at first, except that I saw Burns's back; I did not know him at the time, but I found afterwards that it was him—he was then on the north side of the plinth of the monument; he had a red flag in his hand—there was some speaking going on, but the crowd was so dense and moving about that I could not get near, and I was at the rear of them, at the west side of the monument—I sought to obtain the assistance of the police to get on the plinth—there were a number of people on the plinth—I did not hear anything said at that time—presently I saw Burns on the stone balustrade under the National Gallery, the terrace—I heard him address the meeting there—I have it in my remembrance that the other defendants were there from the first because somebody asked me who they were—I have Burns's speech, I made some shorthand notes of it, and after the meeting was over I transcribed them; a part before I got to the Times office, and there I transcribed the rest—I afterwards saw a copy of the Evening Standard; I did not check my transcript with that, I only took the last part of it—the other speeches I had written before the Evening Standard came out—the original shorthand notes were left as usual on the desk at the Times office; I have asked about them and was told they were destroyed 24 hours afterwards—that is the usual practice when the transcript is made—I have the transcript that I made that afternoon—Mr. Burns was the nominal chairman, there was no chairman there, he stood on the platform in the position of leader—it was just about two o'clock, or a minute or so alter, when he began to speak there—I think I remember the clock striking two—I have made a copy of my transcript for the purpose of being attached to the dopositions—Burns had a stentorian voice, and could be heard distinctly at a great distance. (Reads.) "He declared that he and his friends of the 'Revolutionary Social Democratic League' were not there to oppose the agitation of the unemployed, but they were there to prevent people being made the tools of the paid agitators who were working in the interests of the Fair Trade League. He went on to denounce the House of Commons as composed of capitalists who had fattened upon the labour of the working men, and in this category he included landlords, railway directors and employers, who, he said, were no more likely to legislate in the interests of the working men than were the wolves to labour for the lambs. To hang these, he said, would be to waste good rope, and as no good to the people was to be expected from these 'representatives,' there must be revolution to alter the present state of things. The people who were out of work did not want relief but justice. From whom should they get justice?—from such as the Duke of Westminster and his class, or the capitalists in the House of Commons and their classes? No relief or justice would come from them. The unemployed too, the working men, had now the vote conferred upon them. What for? To turn one party out and put the other in? Were they going to be content with that, while their wives and children wanted food? When the people in France demanded food the rich laughed at those they called 'the men in blouses,' but the heads of those who laughed soon decorated the lamp-posts. Here the leaders of the Revolutionary Democratic League wanted to settle affairs peaceably if they could, but if not they would not shrink from revolution." The crowd had increased amazingly by this time; I should think there were 1,500 people there—a very large part of the crowd were of the orderly working class who were certainly men out of work, but the large part were very violent in their

expressions—the rougher part cheered and applauded the speeches—Burns asked those who were out of work to hold up their hands, and nearly all the hands were held up—then the speaker took up another strain, dwelling on their right to work and their right to live, and warning them not to give ear to the Fair Traders who were having a meeting for heir own purposes; that was the three o'clock meeting—Mr. Champion spoke next—the defendants were in the hearing of each other when they spoke. (Reads.) Mr. Champion "declared that the Government which had now come into power were able in 24 hours, when they thought they personally needed protection from Dynamitards, to carry a measure. Now was needed a measure to protect lives more valuable and of more importance than any of the governing classes, lives which had to be dragged out in miserable homes, and it behoved this Government to set on foot at once remedial measures for the existing state of things. The speaker demanded the provision of work and the enactment of laws limiting labour to eight hours a day, and insisting upon the erection of better homes for the labouring classes at a rent within the means of workers. He also called upon the crowd not to be made the tools of the flair Trade Leaguers, who wished the people to pay more for their food and necessaries of life, in rich men's interests, and then proceeded to say that if the demands of the workers were not granted the people must be contented to go back to their starvation and to bear quietly in the future, or else they must bring home in a practical way responsibility to those who had made it impossible for something to be done." Mr. Williams next addressed the meeting. "He now said he was not contented to clamour any more for work, and advised his hearers as men in want of work to regard the position from his point of view. He quoted words from Shelley, 'We are many, they are few.' The many were workers in want, the few were owners of wealth. The few were organised, while the many were not organised, and if the many organised and banded themselves together, the wealth of the country would change hands. The people should not care for Liberal or Tory, but should seek to benefit their own class. They must put the fear of man in the hearts of the rich and so obtain what they wanted." Mr. Hyndman next spoke. "He said the people out of work were asked to be moderate, but how could they be moderate when they were out of work and starving? If the thousands there had he courage of a few they would very soon alter the existing system of things. But what happened? They went away from meetings like that and forgot all about what they had heard. He and his friends would lead if they would follow, and even 500 determined men out of the thousands present could very soon make a change. It depended upon them whether they would drive the middle classes to bay, and if they did they would soon win." Mr. Burns then spoke again, "he observed that the next time they met it would be to go and sack the bakers' shops in the west of London. They had better die fighting than die starving, and he again asked how many would join the leaders of the Socialists, a question in reply to which many hands were held up. The men over there, Mr. Burns added, referring to the speakers at the rival meetings, were paid agitators, who were living on the poverty of the working classes. Those whom he was addressing he said pledged themselves to revolutionary doctrines, which elicited cries of 'No, no.' He concluded by asking the question, 'When we give the word for a rising will you

join us?' to which a large number of the audience replied that they would, and almost as large a number declared they would not." Besides these speeches other speeches were made—Mr. Burns was constantly, waving the red flag—I heard something said which I did not take down; I heard Mr. Burns make one observation which struck me very much, and that was, "We must have bread or they must have lead"—the speaking at that part of the square went on, I think, till about ten minutes past three, as far as my memory will serve; it might have been a little later—at that time I turned my attention to the other meeting—I did not see the end of the meeting at which the defendants were present; the speaking had finished where they were and the people went away, and I went to the Fair Trade meeting at the Nelson Column.

Cross-examined by MR. THOMPSON. I heard both Mr. Burns and Mr. Williams speak at the Holborn Town Hall on 3rd February—it is in my mind that they all made reference to the meeting of the 8th—I have not got the words they used, but I know they were all referring to it—I can't say that I remember the words they used—I have only part of the notes which I found among the slips on which we write, and they only refer to Mr. Hyndman's speech, the most particular parts; we do not take full notes of a meeting of that character, where only a paragraph is required—I have it now in my mind that Mr. Burns was referring to the Fair Trade League and the Fair Traders, and that the meeting on Monday was not held in the interests of the working-classes, and I remember some expression being used that they should go and break down their platform—I cannot tell who said that—I was communicated with by the Treasury authorities about this—I have here the original transcript that I sent in to The Times office—the original notes are gone, they are not lost, they are gone before—I heard the two resolutions that were submitted to the meeting at the Holborn Town Hall—some portions of the speeches I took from The Evening Standard—the red flag I saw in Trafalgar Square appeared to be bigger than that (produced)—it was on a stick—I will not swear it was twice that size—it was about the size of a very large pocket-handkerchief—the first speech I heard Burns make he was standing on the balustrade—there was a very considerable crowd below him—the rougher class were mostly on the terrace—they were fairly orderly below—I can't say how long Burns spoke—I did not care about putting my hand in my pocket to get my watch; moreover, my attention was diverted to other things—I may have said that what he spoke would make a column and a half, which I reduced to forty or fifty lines—it would be quite a matter of guess—I think you suggested that he might have spoken a column and a half, and I said he might have done so—I don't say it was a column and a half, I only adopt your words—I gave the character of the speeches in a necessarily condensed form—if there had been any qualifying words they would have been reported—it is not a matter of opinion, they are matters of fact—a reporter is an apostle of fact—I heard all Burns said in his first speech—it was not in his first speech he said "We must have bread, or they must have lead"—that was subsequently—in a subsequent part, when the meeting got more noisy, a sentence would be lost, because my attention was directed elsewhere—I was in a position to hear all he said and I heard every sentence he uttered, but I did not take it all down—his voice is a tremendous one—I can't tell how long Williams spoke; I won't pledge myself to time—

I said at the police-court that his speech might make half a column; again I adopted your words—I reproduced it in fifteen lines—he might have spoken about ten minutes, which would make about one-third of a column—a rapid speaker would speak half a column in ten minutes—he spoke rapidly at the Holborn Town Hall, but at a large meeting like this he would speak deliberately, in order to make his language tell—the fifteen lines fairly represents the character of his speech—Burns made a speech later on—I took a shorthand note of that—he spoke several times; then the meeting was getting of a changeful character, and the crowd had very much increased—where I was standing the crushing was not felt—the crushing was on the outskirts of the crowd, 50 or 100 feet from me—there was a roar of voices in the distance, but they did not interrupt my hearing—there was considerable noise and crushing in the square—when there was a noise the speaker turned round and stopped and then went on again—I heard Burns say "We must have bread or they must have lead"—I took that down, but I did not report it in the paper, in the public interests—had I written all the violent exclamations the public, abroad especially, might think there was a revolution in London—it would have given a fictitious character, an alarming character—at the time I wrote it appeared to me that the meeting was of a some-what peaceable character; at least, not of an unpeaceable character—The Times has an editor and a manager—they gave me no instructions as to what I should put in and what I should leave out—I was on my own responsibility and my own feeling—I had no book in my hand—these are the copy slips of the paper used in The Times office, and in the same way I wrote the shorthand notes of Mr. Hyndman's speech that night—in an open meeting of this character my experience has shown me that is the best way to write it—I took down more of the speech than I wrote out—I took down as much as would perhaps make a column and a half, if it was all written out—a good deal was necessarily omitted—the short summary makes forty or fifty lines—I heard Mr. Champion put the resolution—I think Mr. Williams seconded it—I think it was the same that was given at the Holborn Town Hall on the previous day—it was certainly of the same character—I went away before the meeting broke up and moved towards the other meetings that were going on—I did not hear Burns say "A suggestion has been made to me that we should march through the West-end to Hyde Park"—I heard Mr. Champion at Hatton Wall speak with regard to the meeting on Monday—I did not attribute any sinister meaning to what he said, not in regard to life or property in the metropolis—when I left Trafalgar Square I left a very large crowd there—the rough element came on the scene then—there was a very large number of real unemployed people there; people of fustian and with stains of labour upon them—the roughs kept very much together, and so did the working class—that was how I was able to take my notes in peace and comparative quietness—the working class was below and the rough element above—they became very disorderly; in fact, the platform on which I stood was broken down—that was an hour afterwards, near four o'clock—the defendants had then left the square—this was at the other end of the square, not very far from the Nelson Monument.

Cross-examined by Champion. In my report I only gave a sentence or two of your speech in Trafalgar Square; you spoke at some length, as

long as Mr. Hyndman—I had no reason for cutting your speech short except that I had other business to do—I put the salient points—at Hatton Wall you spoke of the steps taken by the Members of Parliament—you said they had been invited to attend, and read letters from them approving the objects of the meeting in Trafalgar Square—you spoke there to the same effect as at Hatton Wall, the two speeches were much the same in tenour—in Trafalgar Square you spoke of the rapidity with which legislation could be carried out, and that Parliament was able to pass the Explosives Act through both Houses in 24 hours, and that a special act for the relief of the unemployed could be passed equally speedily if they liked—you demanded the passing of a law limiting the hours of labour to eight hours; that was the gist of your long speech—you recommended constitutional and legal steps for calling attention to the great distress among the unemployed—there were police all round the Nelson monument—I sought the assistance of one policeman to get on the plinth, not of Superintendent Dunlop—the meeting I went to was the 3 o'clock meeting—yours commenced at 2 o'clock—I heard no language inciting to violence—there were some violent expressions from persons in front of me—I was summoned to the Treasury the day before the proceedings at Bow Street—I objected to be called as a witness, I said it was incompatible with my position as a reporter—I was then handed my copy, and was requested to sit down, and I was asked if I heard anything else besides what was there; the matter was then quite fresh in my mind, and I mentioned some of the expressions, and I said I heard the expression from Burns "We must have bread or they must have lead," and immediately that expression was written down—I said that I heard that—the solicitor did not ask me if I heard it, I volunteered it—I saw one other gentleman in the square who I supposed was a reporter, who he was I don't know, I thought it was Mr. Stead, but I am told it was not—other reporters must have been there—I did not take my notes from other papers—all my notes were written before the evening papers came out.

Cross-examined by Hyndman. I have not, prior to these meetings expressed any strong opinions of this agitation—I never attended any of your meetings, and knew nothing about your opinions—I cannot tell when I took my last verbatim report before this meeting—I go to meetings every day of the week, perhaps 500 in the year; it is almost a matter of daily experience that I have to use verbatim shorthand—at the Holborn Town Hall you spoke of building artisans' dwellings, and said it would be a very profitable thing—you dwelt upon the financial question—at the end of your Trafalgar Square meeting I went over to a fourth meeting that was being formed—there were five meetings altogether in the Square—when Burns was speaking I was about 60 or 65 feet from the balustrade—I went and measured it afterwards—there was an enormous crowd of 15,000 or 20,000—there was no pushing or shoving where I was—I heard the speeches—I heard no qualifying words to what I reported—I was thrown down in the square—the platform broke down, I don't know who broke it down—I saw a bag of flour thrown—that was on the plinth of the monument—before this I saw a policeman covered with flour—I could not tell the names of the persons who were speaking then—I say you delivered a violent harangue—I did not adopt the

description in other papers, I only used the Evening Standard—I saw other journals that evening, but I never opened them.

Re-examined by MR. POLAND. I went to this meeting solely as the Times reporter—I had no notion that I should be called as a witness—when I went to the Treasury I found they had got my transcript that I had prepared for the Times, I had not sent it, it had been obtained from the Times office—I was questioned about it, and I then gave the further statement about "bread and lead" which I had heard, and afterwards I was supoenaed to attend at the police court as a witness—I have not put a word in my report that I did not hear—I put in the passage from the Evening Standard to save the time of transcription; I compared it with my notes, and altered it so as to agree with them—I am quite sure that that was said at that part of the meeting at Trafalgar Square to which the speeches were addressed—the platform that afterwards broke down was by the fountain, about 50 yards from where I stood.

THOMAS MCDONALD RENDALL . I am a reporter for the Daily Telegraph—I attended the meeting in Trafalgar Square on 8th February, I arrived at 2.45 p.m., and saw some persons standing in front of the National Gallery—Burns and Williams were two of them; I heard Bums speak, and took down what I could hear, or that I wanted to take—these are my original notes, and this is the transcript that I made at the time—Burns said "Next time you meet here, will be to sack the bakers' shops in the West End; we have had too much talk; I stand here as an unemployed workman and as a revolutionist; the next time it will not be to move resolutions but to take the wealth and the bread they daily rob us of. You have pledged yourselves to a revolutionary platform; when you are called upon will you respond like men? the Social Democratic League and Union will assist; it is not true we are disunited; will you respond like men? Mr. Sparling, the Secretary of the Socialist League, will now address you"—Mr. Sparling did so—Burns also said "Unless we get bread they must have lead," and as I remember that was said twice—I think he spoke four or five times, and when the meeting broke up he said, "It is suggested we shall march through the West End; those who will go, hold up their hands;" I took that down—a great number held up their hands, and they moved towards the West End—Burns was carried along on the shoulders of the crowd—he had a red flag at some part of the proceedings—Williams had addressed the meeting before I got there, he made same remarks about Mr. Pigly, which I took down; I have the speech here, but I am not certain of the identity of the speaker.

Cross-examined by MR. THOMPSON. I was first asked to give evidence on Wednesday after the meeting, by the Treasury I believe—I do not produce the report which I furnished to the Daily Telegraph; there was a large number of people in Trafalgar Square; they were a bad lot; I tried to get a resting place in front of the speakers, but they were so disorderly that I got to the back of the speakers, where it was quieter—there was a very choice collection of the roughs of London, who did not seem to listen to anything—they were indulging in horse-play, bonneting one another, and all the usual amusements of London roughs—there was a great noise, and I had some difficulty in hearing the speeches, very many sentences were lost—I was several feet behind Burns; but it was after that that the crowd were disorderly, and a contractor's shed broke down every five minute with the pressure of people getting on it—I remember

Mr. Sparling, he was standing behind Bums, except when he was speaking; he was between me and Burns the greater part of the time but some distance off—there is a possibility of his using the words bread and lead, and my mistaking them for Burns's words—it was impossible to pay much attention, because four or five meetings were in progress at one time—I believe Williams spoke, but I am uncertain about it—when Burns spoke of marching to the West End, I think he said "It has been suggested that we should march through the West End"—I heard nothing said about protracting the speeches until the disorderly crowd had gone in another direction; the red flag was like this (produced), and not much larger; it was not a formidable banner, it was on a stick.

Cross-examined by Champion. I don't remember hearing you speak—I fancy I came after you had spoken.

Cross-examined by Hyndman. I think you had spoken before I had got there—it would require lungs in good working order to penetrate that crowd—I could not hear all that Burns said; some of the early part of my report was taken from the evening paper, as I was not there to hear it myself—there was noise throughout the whole business; but according to my understanding, it was Burns who used the words bread and lead—but if two people were on the balustrade, it is possible that I might have mistaken the words of one for the words of the other—I can hear well—my discomfort arose from the people in the square.

Re-examined. I was at two or three points—there were similar rushes and sallies and alarms of various sorts, and then I went behind where Burns was.

EDGAR WINDETT . I am a cricket-bat manufacturer, of 167, Tufnell Park Road—on 8th February, at 1.30, I went to Trafalgar Square—there were some thousands of people there—I saw the defendants at the base of the Nelson monument when I arrived—Burns had a red flag in his hand; he said that it was not the first he had had in his hand—there were policemen there, who turned the defendants off, and then they went to the balustrade in front of the National Gallery—I heard Burns speak there; he said that unless something was done for them, at their next meeting they would ransack the bakers' shops, and they would have to do the same as they did in other countries—he named France, and said they went there in their thousands to the Government and demanded bread, and were laughed at, and two years after the heads of those who laughed were stuck on the lamp-posts—Burns spoke two or three times—I heard all the other defendants speak, but do not remember their words—Burns made a remark about going round west, and somebody shouted out "To the clubs"—the crowd then moved to the west, and I saw Burns as he was leaving the square, with a red flag in his hand in the front of the crowd, and they followed him towards Cockspur Street and into Pall Mall, where I saw Burns climb up the parapet in front of the Carlton Club—he spoke there, but I could not hear what he said—the red flag was still in his hand—he then got down and moved in the direction of St. James's Street, and the crowd followed him—I saw some windows broken at the Carlton, but at no other club that I noticed—I saw a lot of windows broken on the left side of Ht. James's Street—they then turned into Piccadilly, where I saw some windows broken and a trunk being thrown about, but did not see where it came from—I went on with the crowd into Hyde Park and went towards the Achilles statue, and saw several carriages being smashed by the roughs, and I went and warned

one or two of the coachmen in the drive; a mounted policeman followed me, and when he caught mo up I went back to the Achilles statue and saw Burns on the pedestal, and afterwards the other three—I heard Barns speak from the statue and say "We have shown them to-day what we can do with stones, and unless they do something for us we shall show them what we can do with powder and shot"—I saw Williams on the pedestal beckon to a reporter who was below in the crowd with a book, and I believe Williams assisted him on to the pedestal—some of the crowd cried "Lead us to Oxford Street," and "No reporters"—not withstanding that the reporter began to take notes on the statue—the four defendants were close together on the pedestal, and each of them spoke, I cannot say in what order—the reporter stood close to them, in a position to hear and take down all they said—the cry of "Lead us to Oxford Street" was raised once or twice during the speeches—after the speeches the defendants all went off towards Notting Hill together, and the crowd moved towards Stanhope Gate—I went with it and passed with it through Dean Street into South Audley Street; a lot of windows were broken in both those streets, and shop fronts were smashed in and a lot of things stolen—I saw a lot of bread and some rabbits, and all sorts of things; I did not notice any jewellery—I went with the crowd across Grosvenor Square into North Audley Street, and saw shops smashed in, and then into Oxford Street, where there were some constables, I do not know how many, but the crowd dispersed—I left about 5 o'clock and walked along Oxford Street to Tottenham Court Road.

Cross-examined by MR. THOMPSON. I have not seen my depositions since I was at Bow Street—when I was first called to the Treasury they took down in writing what I have told you—I have not learnt it by heart since, I have not seen it—I have three shops and employ four men at present—when 1 was at Bow Street I was only employing one—I supply some of the police with cricketing goods, but never played with them—I hardly know why I followed the crowd—I was not one of the unemployed—I was an idler, it' you like—I had gone in the City to call on my brother, and was going for orders as well, but not for the police—I went to the meeting out of curiosity as much as anything—I knew that there was great trade depression, and I sympathised with the unemployed—I arrived there about 1.30 and saw Burns on the Nelson Column—I left the square about 4 o'clock—I did not follow Burns when he left the Nelson Monument—I only heard Burns make one remark respecting the flag—I was struck by his voice; he had a good voice—I heard him on the balustrade when I was in the middle of the square—there were a lot of people; they were not very noisy—I made no note of what Burns said—I may have had greater power of hearing than others had—I am not dull of hearing—I will not swear to what I have said word for word, it is two months ago—I do not remember the portions between the defendant's sentences—before I left Trafalgar Square the crowd got very noisy and there was a good deal of horseplay—I did not notice any police, except those round the Column, guarding it, I suppose—the crowd was increasing in size and in turbulence, and the police nowhere visible—I saw no police as we went up Cockspur Street—the crowd went on to the Carlton Club, and there I saw window-breaking take place—I saw no police there—I saw some persons at the window of the Carlton Club smiling, I suppose, at the ragged army—no damage was done till then that I saw—I saw something thrown from the centre of

the crowd, but I will not say they were stones—after the crowd got into St. James's Street it increased in violence—I saw no police in Pall Mall or at Hyde Park Corner—I saw a few by the Park gate inside—I don't know what they were guarding—when the crowd got into the Park they separated in two portions—most of them went on the right-hand side of the statue, and I saw Burns get on the monument—there were not more than 200 people at the statue when I first got there—Burns appeared to be waiting for the others, who had got behind—there was horseplay and confusion to my right—Burns was almost in front of me—the crowd ran a great portion of the distance to the gate—I was ten or twelve yards from Burns—he commenced speaking two or three minutes after I got there with the crowd—I was about 100 yards from the front of the crowd, as near as I can judge, in the middle of it—I do not remember hearing Burns say "You have shown by your procession through the streets to-day your poverty and determination"—he may have said so, I did not hear all he said—I did not take down the words "We have shown them to-day what we can do with stones, and unless they do something for us we will show them what we can do with powder and shot," and I cannot swear to their verbal accuracy, as it is some months ago, but they were words to that effect—I heard Williams speak—I don't remember what he said—I said at Bow Street that he said "Those who insult young ladies are not worthy of the name of men," and I remember Champion using similar words; they denounced those who insulted ladies coming along—I cannot say whether it was Williams, but one of the speakers denounced those who had broken windows; one of the speakers said that they were ashamed at what the mob had done—I did not notice any of the defendants during my passage to the West-end—the Treasury communicated with me on the Saturday, but I had communicated with them on the previous Wednesday—you can, if you like, say that I am an informer, but it was not with the intention of giving any of the speeches that I went there—I offered to give them evidence respecting the riot—I had no intention of giving evidence against any of the defendants, but when I was asked if I remembered any of the speeches made, I told them.

Cross-examined by Champion. I do not remember seeing you at the Nelson Monument—I think I first saw you on a balustrade opposite the National Gallery—my brother is not a prize fighter, he is an amateur boxer; he was not with me in the square—I have no evidence to give of what you said in the square—I did not see you on the right at Hyde Park—I do not remember hearing the crowd in Hyde Park say "Shoot the aristocracy"—I heard you ask all those who had brothers among the soldiers or police to get them to side with the oppressed, but I do not remember your saying "If the day should come"—these riots have damaged trade very much—they caused shops to be closed, and that was my motive for coming forward—I saw you go from the meeting, in the direction of Notting Hill; you were on the right hand side of the drive, the left side facing the Statue—I should not be surprised to hear that you were in Piccadilly five minutes afterwards—I did not speak to the patrol—I saw one mounted policeman ride down the drive and go away; he stopped some carriages; I did not speak to him—I preferred this information two days afterwards; in the interim I saw the accounts in two news-papers—I did not go to Scotland Yard to give evidence about what you said, but to put a stop to these riots, as it was said each day afterwards

that many thousands of persons were going to cause another riot, and I went to assist the police in putting a stop to it, as I was in the neighbourhood of Scotland Yard, and they asked me what I knew, and I told them what I remembered.

Cross-examined by Hyndman. I do not remember much pushing when I first got into Trafalgar Square—there was a very large crowd afterwards—there was noise and pushing—I don't remember seeing a man put into the fountain, nor did I notice hats knocked off—there was pushing and shoving if that be horse-play—I saw a bag of flour strike a policeman, it might have been thrown at some one else—it was rather a disorderly than an orderly crowd—I could not have sworn then to seeing you on the Nelson Monument—now I do believe I saw you, if not you some one very like you—I should be surprised to hear you were not there till an hour later—I had never been to a public meeting of that sort before—I took no interest in it; but I wondered what they were going to do, and so followed as far as the clubs—I did not hear much of what was said—there was pushing and running and shouting, but I did not notice any stone throwing till we got to the Carlton Club—I believe there are jewellers shops and clubs along there—I saw some people inside the windows of the Carlton Club; I saw some of them smiling—I saw nothing thrown from the club—I saw something, I could not say what, thrown at it—I should have noticed if it had been a big stone—I noticed no one molested in the neighbourhood of the club—I noticed stone throwing in St. James's Street; at the bottom of that street there was a cart full of rubbish of some sort—I don't know what it was—there are shops on the right hand side of St. James's Street—I noticed no breaking of windows or pilfering going on there—I saw the windows broken on! the left—I did not notice one policeman from Trafalgar Square to the top of St. James's Street—the crowd was scattered and running with no appearance of any special order—I don't Bay there was any appearance of anything like design—I saw no policeman from St. James's Street to Piccadilly—I saw one or two shops broken into at the corner of Piccadilly—I noticed no policeman up to Arlington Street—I did not notice you at all—I went on with the crowd to the park; it took about half an hour I should say to get there from Trafalgar Square—I noticed no clock any where—on entering the park the bulk of the crowd seemed to go to the right of the statue—I did not notice which way they went, they did not get so far as Stanhope Gate, but they were moving that way—I did not see them come back to the statue; I don't know that I should have if they did—I was about twelve yards from the statue—I can swear to the phrase, "We have shown them what we can do with stones to-day, and unless they do something for us, we will show them what we can do with powder and shot to-morrow;" it was to that effect—I say that Burns said that—there were several remarks made, but after that there was a disturbance—there was no disturbance when he first got up, they were very quiet then, waiting for what he was going to say—when I got in the park I went and warned all the carriages just in the drive on the left by the railings close to the statue, and told the coachmen to turn back; Burns was not on the statue when I did that, as he stopped at the bottom of the statue before he climbed up, I thought he was waiting for some of you, those were the first words I heard Burns say, to the effect I have mentioned—I would not swear that was the commencement of his speech—I should think the speaking at the statue

lasted about 20 minutes—it would have been possible for the crowd to go through Stanhope Gate and North Audley Street while the speaking was going on at the statue—I heard you speak at the statue, I don't recollect anything you said—I heard all four speak, but I don't remember anything else—there was a disturbance after Burns's speach, and I heard nothing else for a little while—after I left the statue I saw some policemen at Stanhope Gate—I went into North Audley Street, I don't remember seeing any policemen there—I went down and gave information, with no intention of saying anything about the speeches, but about what I had seen at the riot, the breaking of windows and so forth.

WILLIAM EDWARD BARLING . I am a reporter on the staff of the Daily Telegraph—I was at the meeting in Trafalgar Square, I got there about five minutes past three, and stayed till about 4 o'clock; I was in several parts of the square, chiefly near the Nelson Monument—shortly before 4 o'clock I saw a crowd of three or four thousand people moving along westward, towards Cockspur Street and Fall Mall, and I went with them—at that time I had not seen any of the defendants, I had seen a red flag waving at the top of Trafalgar Square—at the Reform and Carlton Clubs a halt was made, and a speech was given by some one on the balustrade of the Reform—at its conclusion some one in the crowd cried out "Three cheers for the Social revolution"—some one spoke from the balustrade of the Carlton, but I could not hear it; there was a red flag there; no windows were broken at the Reform, but at the Carlton there were—in St. James's Street and Piccadilly, some in the clubs and shops, and all the windows of the hotel at the corner of Wellington Street were smashed—chiefly gravel was thrown about, and some loose blocks of wood paving, and empty trunks were being kicked about—I got into the Green Park on the left and went quickly along to get to Hyde Park—I there saw some carriages stopped and the windows broken, and I saw things taken away from some of the people in carriages inside Hyde Park, and missiles thrown at the carriages, at the glass probably—I went to the Achilles Statue, about 400 or 500 people were there when I got there—all the defendants were there on the stonework of the statue—Burns commenced to speak; I think the first sentence I heard was "We have shown them what we can do to-day"—I was amongst the crowd in front of the statue—I think some other words followed which I did not hear—I took out a book and began to take a note; this seemed to displease some of the crowd, who called out, "No reporters, turn him out"—I said "I am not a Government reporter, I am a newspaper reporter: let me alone"—some of the defendants then hauled me up to the pedestal of the statue, from which they were speaking—I took down their speeches—I have a transcript of my original shorthand notes, which I have compared—Burns began, "We intend to submit to the Government all the resolutions that we moved, and pending the time we shall know what they are going to do, I ask you to be satisfied with that. (Cries of 'No' and 'Oxford Street.') We must insist on their doing what we want. (Cheers.) The reporter has arrived. (Daily Telegraph reporter here arrived.) He probably knows what has already taken place. We are determined that this business shall end as we the workers wish it. (Cheers.) We are determined to have an opportunity for those who through no fault of their own are starving (cheers), and I will ask this reporter to tell the Government and the people of London that unless they concede all our requests, then I say

there will be revolution in the streets of London. (Cheers and cries of 'Now's the time.') It is all very well for some hot-headed men to say 'Now's the time,' but you are not so large as you were. We will choose the time when we are strong enough to go, and not before. It isn't worth while losing one's life for breaking a window. When we lay down our lives it will be on behalf of the hungry. I ask you now to peaceably break up. I hope you will go away (No, no), and next when we meet we will tell you what to do." Mr. Champion: "I know perfectly well that this crowd can't stand against soldiers, or even against police. (Cries of 'Yes.') Listen to me; you cannot stand against them as you are now, but this you can do. Go from here, many of you have friends in the Army, in the regiment of Guards who will be the first brought down to clear this park. Go away and tell them, every man, so that when the day does come for taking sides in this great class struggle they will not side with these people who drive up and down here to-day, but be on the side of the suffering and privation you see here. (A voice: 'Shoot the aristocracy.') No, no, you want to upset the system, and breaking windows or interfering with women in carnages won't do that. I saw the window (interruption) that girl who was frightened. You who are fighting for the (Qy. emancipation) of your class, are you going to fight against your-selves by frightening timid women like thin? (A voice: 'It wasn't a man, it was a cur.') I was ashamed of the men who took the brandy out of the wine shop, and tore down that shopkeeper's (Qy. ties). Those are not the men. If your peaceable (? reasonable) demands are not met (confusion), my counsel to you is separate from here; go each man to his own home, but before you go to bed to-night find out some man in the soldiers or police, spread among them the truths we have told you to-day, so that if we have occasion to call another meeting it shall be so large, so organised, so orderly, so threatening, that your demands will be conceded without bringing you face to face unarmed and poverty stricken as you are (sentence unfinished.)" Mr. Hyndman: "Those who broke the windows were the paid champions of your enemies. If you are firm friends they must give in. They have seen you to-day, seen you march past their palaces. I ask you not to forget that you are (interruption). I ask you as a friend, both a middle class man and an officer (renewed interruption). You know perfectly well we are trying what we can do, at some risk to ourselves, against a system. I ask you not to render our work impossible. We are not organised. Mr. Champion is an Artillery officer and he knows you will have no opportunity against them. Organise, organise, and educate each other. We are going to demand from each party, so that the labourer may live in the land of his birth. I say have a good try first, and if all peaceful means fail we will be the first to call upon you to prevail." Mr. Burns: "Probably all the speakers here to-day will be in prison to-morrow. I hope so. I will tell you for why—the more they prosecute and imprison, the greater the cause of the workers will become. We are not strong enough at the present moment to cope with armed force, but when we give you the signal will you rise? (Loud cries of 'Yes.') Then go home quietly; the signal will be given if the Government doesn't move. (Oh!) We have shown our devotion to the cause of the people for five or six years. We have done everything men could do, and I (urge Qy.) you as a workman, as chairman of the meetings to-day, to disperse and arrange when we shall strike a blow for our own emancipation Kindly disperse; now kindly go home."

Then Williams again spoke: "Kindly go home for the very simple reason that there are a number of roughs who take delight in smashing windows, and don't do it because they want work. Don't attempt a revolution when you are not organised for it." (Cheers and cries of "Oxford Street." Then Burns and Williams said "No more speeches"—I took those speeches down from the lips of the speakers, so that I can speak to the accuracy of them—there had been little movements towards Stanhope Gate, and when the speeches ended the crowd went in that direction—I got off the stonework and ran with the crowd to Stanhope Gate—I did not see what had become of the defendants then; I do not think they had got off the stonework then—I went into South Audley Street, where I saw shop windows broken and goods thrown about in the street—Minton's china shop windows were smashed and the goods thrown about—I waited there some time and then went across Grosvenor Square into North Audley Street, where I saw the same sort of thing had taken place—windows had been smashed and things thrown about—I went as far as Marylebone Lane, where there were policemen—the crowd had begun to dwindle away then; I followed a portion of it into the City—I think about the last damage that I saw done was in Oxford Street, opposite Marylebone Lane—on the Wednesday after I was sent for to go to Scotland Yard, and afterwards I was seen by the Solicitor to the Treasury and my statement was taken—I produce my notes, and this transcript taken from them.

Wednesday, April 7th.

WILLIAM EDWARD BARLING (Recalled). (Cross-examined by MR. THOMPSON). I don't think I saw the leading article in the Daily Telegraph—I had a communication from the manager of the Daily Telegraph asking me to go to Scotland Yard—I was at Trafalgar Square on 8th February for about three-quarters of an hour; I was there for the purpose of taking the speeches, I took some, but did not report them—I arrived there about 3.5, and stayed till a few minutes to 4, about the time the crowd departed—I thought it was a very lively crowd, about as lively a one as I had ever seen—I mean it was composed of a rough element, I should say it was the rough element of London—those who went to the West End were mainly the lowest class to be found in London; there were a few working men, as I found out by inquiry—when they left the Square I was on the pavement in Cockspur Street, on the other side of the Union Club, rather towards the end of the mob, then I pushed my way forward along Pall Mall—I did not see any damage done up to the Reform Club, the crowd stopped simultaneously between that and the Carlton—I observed some speaking going on at the Carlton, I did not see any stones thrown—I did not see anybody at the windows of the Carlton, I think I saw some female servants there—the windows were closed; I don't think anything could have come out of them from Trafalgar Square to the Carlton—I had not met a single policeman, I only saw one behind the War Office gates—I went with the crowd up St. James's Street, I saw stone-throwing there by the roughs; that was my impression—I reached the top of St. James's Street without seeing a policeman—I then went into the Green Park and along the north pathway; I saw no policeman in the route—a good portion of the crowd went to the statue, and another portion remained near the gates—when I got to the statue I found a good many people there already, I gave it as 400 or 500, but the number was

continually shifting—I think Burns was speaking when I arrived—I heard him say "We intend to submit to the Government all the resolutions that we moved, and pending the time we shall know what they are going to do I ask you to be satisfied with that"—I don't say that those were his first words, they are the first words in my transcript—the first words I heard were the fragmentary portions of a sentence. "We have shown them what we can do to-day," or words to that effect—I was standing in front of the speakers—I have my original shorthand notes here (reading them)—then Mr. Williams and Hyndman spoke, then Williams spoke again—at the Achilles statue Burns advised the people to go home quietly—after the speaking the great majority of the crowd proceeded to Stanhope Gate, others went in another direction—I did not see any policemen as I went towards Stanhope Gate; I saw one mounted policeman previously, he did not make any vigorous effort to disperse the crowd, I think he made a vigorous effort to get away from the crowd—I said at the police-court" I have been in crowds inclined to disorder, most crowds are inclined to disorder; I do not remember such an entire absence of constables as on this occasion"—I adhere to that.

Cross-examined by Champion. I did not hear you speak in Trafalgar Square—the crowd took about half an hour in getting from the Square to the park, including the stoppage at the clubs—in order to get at the head of the crowd I had to run along the Green Park; I dare say I ran half a mile—the crowd was running and trotting now and then—on getting to the park about 500 people went to the statue, the remainder were up and down the drive, going in different directions, or standing about—I think about 3,000 people went into the park, the numbers around the statue were fluctuating—there was a little disturbance—they were objecting to me; I thought they were going to do something serious—I was then placed on the statue, six or seven feet from the ground—I don't think I could have got up there without assistance—I think Williams and Burns assisted me, knowing that I was a reporter—I then began to take notes—there were various interruptions and ejaculations from the crowd—I think the disturbance terminated about 5 o'clock—I saw four policemen at Marylebone Lane, their presence stopped the window-smashing at that point—by the time they got to Oxford Street the crowd had dwindled to 200 or 300—a considerable portion of the crowd who heard your speeches moved off in the direction of South Audley Street, and some of that crowd committed damage—I have never seen at such a meeting so small a number of police—after you had spoken Mr. Hyndman said that the crowd would have no opportunity against soldiers—"opportunity" is the word I have down, and I believe that is the word he used—he might have said "chance."

Cross-examined by Hyndman. The crowd in Trafalgar Square was noisy and troublesome—there was pushing and a good deal of noise from five minutes past three and on—I went with the crowd from the square—I saw no stones thrown between the square and the Carlton Club, if anything had been thrown from the Carlton I rather think I should have seen them, of course it is possible they might have been thrown without my seeing them—I think it was gravel that was thrown at the club, that was picked up on the road by Waterloo Place—I did not see any large stones thrown—there were a great many roughs in the crowd—I only saw one policeman from the square to the top of St. James's Street, that

was the one inside the War Office gates—I saw 4 policemen come through the crowd at Marylebone Lane, they stopped further depredations—when they appeared the crowd left off doing damage—I think twenty good men might have stopped them at other places—I have some idea that I saw a body of police at the corner of Arlington Street, but I am not quite certain—I aid not notice the time I got to Apsley House—when I came towards the statue I think you were there, you may have arrived later—the crowd was not absolutely quiet, there were a few ejaculations at different times—I don't think those could have been mistaken for words from the speakers—I have my notes of your speech (Reading the speech again)—I had not heard you speak before—I will swear to the general accuracy of what I have down, not to the words—I should say you had all been speaking at the statue about ten minutes or quarter of an hour from the time I saw you begin till you got down, not longer, the speeches were very short—I have been in crowds before—I don't know that I have been in very riotous crowds; parts of this crowd were specially disorderly.

This being the case for the prosecution, MR. JUSTICE CAVE inquired of the ATTORNEY-GENERAL what were the seditious intents alleged and relied upon. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL replied the intent to stir up ill-will and disaffection among Her Majesty's subjects, and suggesting that grievances might be remedied otherwise than by Constitutional methods, he referred to Reg. v Sullivan, 11 Cox Criminal Cases, and the report in Reg. v Piggott, p. 249; he did not suggest that the defendants desired the disturbances which took place, or excited the people to cause them, otherwise than it must be assumed that they must have been aware of and were answerable for the natural results of the language they used. MR. JUSTICE CAVE ruled that as the question was one of intent he must leave that to the Jury.

The following Witnesses were called for the Defence:

HON. GUY DAWNEY (By MR. THOMPSON). I was a member of the last Parliament—I am a member of the Carlton Club—on the afternoon of 8th February I was in Pall Mall about five minutes to four—I had been to the meeting in Trafalgar Square and turned back about ten minutes to four to keep an appointment at the War Office at four—I got to the Carlton about four o'clock—I noticed about 100 people crowded together in Pall Mall; those about me did not seem particularly decent, ten of them robbed me of my watch and pin in a scientific way at the corner of the passage between the Reform and Carlton Clubs—I had some hustle with the pickpockets and I heard a voice, I believe Burns's, say "Make him go into the club, take him into the house," and I saw Burns three or four minutes after on the step of the Carlton—I could not be quite sure it was his voice but I believe it was—I understood he wished to save me from further molestation—I saw Burns's brother there—he said to me, before I got to the Carlton, "These are a lot of prigs"—eventually I got into the club—my hat was twice knocked off and twice given to me again.

Cross-examined. I know no member of the Carlton would jeer at any of the unemployed, there was no suggestion of that—I saw stone throwing—some one who was speaking to me on the steps of the Carlton was hit in the neck by a piece of metal—I heard something hitting the windows of the club—I did not hear Burns's speech at the Carlton.

Re-examined. I saw members or the club at the windows for a

moment, but I was fighting with these people, and could not tee if they were jeering or not—it stands to common sense that they would not.

By Hyndman. I saw some milk spilt on the pavement and some person carrying off a milk yoke—I suppose he had been assaulted as he was taking milk to the club.

By Champion. There was a little horseplay in the Square—the only thing I saw thrown was a small square bit of old metal—I heard objects striking the windows behind me, but I was resisting attempts to take my property and did not notice what was thrown.

SIR EDMUND HENDERSON (By MR. THOMPSON). On 8th February I was at the head of the Metropolitan Police—I received information that a demonstration of the unemployed was to be held in Trafalgar Square on that day in the early part of the previous week from the Secretary of the London United Workmen's Committee—I do not knew that they are known as the Fair Trade League—it came to my knowledge that it was the expressed intention of the Socialists to interfere with that meeting, and to take their platforms and use them—we made inquiries; ascertained a meeting of the Socialists was to be held on the evening previous, and means were taken to ascertain if any such threats were held out, but they were not; we were given to understand that the Socialists intended to be present, and there was reason to apprehend there might be collision between the two bodies—no intention of disorder on the following day was expressed at the meeting—I detailed double the number of constables I had before on each occasion, apprehending there might be a breach of the peace, and I also made arrangements along the lines of route people attending the meeting might take—I attended the meeting myself, and it was very similar to almost every other large meeting I have attended in the last 17 years—there was a certain disposition to horseplay that I have seen at every meeting; it did not seem much more rowdy, but the opinion of other members of the force was that it was—I saw none of the defendants there, they are personally unknown to me—certain missiles that had been thrown at the Carlton Club and had fallen into the area were afterwards brought to Scotland Yard; they consisted of various objects, such as men generally carry in their pockets, old snuff-boxes, handles and blades of knives, and tobacco-boxes, and one very large stone, and it may be a few smaller ones—I did not observe the crowd going westwards; I observed it going down Whitehall and the Northumberland Avenue, and up the Strand—I took plenty of arrangements there, and, on the chance of some of them going down Pall Mall, I ordered the reserve in St. George's Barracks to go down Pall Mall, but the order was misunderstood, and they went down the Mall, and Pall Mall was left with only the police on ordinary duty—I had no reason whatever to expect an extraordinary disturbance on this occasion, except a collision between the unemployed and the Socialists in Trafalgar Square—it has always been usual for many years past for conveners of public meetings in Hyde Park and elsewhere to communicate with the police authorities, and arrangements are made—we have had no Socialists' riots or rows for 17 years—a year previously a meeting of the Socialists was called on the Thames Embankment, and no disorder resulted—there have been communications between the police and the Socialists, they asking us to assist in preserving order; a friendly understanding subsisted between us.

By Champion. I saw in the report of the meeting at the Holborn

Town Hall on 3rd February, that some threats had been made by one of the speakers of interference with the meeting on the Monday, and that the chairman said a meeting would be held at Hatton Wall on the Monday for those who desired to see practical steps taken—I sent two detectives to the Hatton Wall meeting; it is one of the weekly Sunday meetings held there—it relieved my mind to some extent that no threats of violence were held out there—the crowd arrived at the War Office at 4 o'clock—the rioting was entirely over at 10 minutes past 5—the crowd that went into Hyde Park divided into two sections, one which remained round the statue, and the other which went to Mayfair—the crowd was too dense in Trafalgar Square for me to get within earshot of the speaker—it was not a very disorderly crowd up to 4 o'clock—there was a little horseplay—not much information of the meeting to be in Hyde Park some years ago against coercion in Ireland was sent to the police.

By Hyndman. Previously you held a very large meeting at Dodd Street—I sent to you about it—all the previous meetings of this body have been orderly and well conducted—I understood the Trafalgar Square meeting was called by the London United Workmen—I made arrangements for it—I thought possibly there would be a disturbance between the two bodies—there always are a considerable number of roughs—about 20 constables stopped the rioting at the corner of Marylebone Lane—about 100 constables were in reserve in my charge—they were sent down to Buckingham Palace by mistake—they were more than ample to stop the riot if they had gone the right way—I had detectives and police on the outskirts of the crowd while the speeches were going on—they did not tell me there was any likelihood of any disturbance from what they heard—there were no police except those on ordinary duty on the route where the disturbances occurred—the notice of the meeting was issued by the United London Workmen's Committee—that has no connection with the Society to which the defendants belong—I had no notice from the defendants that they intended to hold a meeting—it came to my knowledge from the reports in the papers—he said that he had ordered an extra force apprehending a collision in the Square—I had no reason to apprehend a march westward—at the previous meeting they returned by the way they came, from the East, as far as I can judge, and we had made arrangements along that route—I had given orders for a number of men to be at Pall Mall, but had not foreseen a march towards the West, nor had anybody else—Mr. Childers was at the Home Office on 8th February for the first time on being appointed Home Secretary.

By a JUROR. We were very anxious to know whether the Socialists were going to interfere with the meeting of the unemployed, and therefore I sent two detectives there.

REV. MR. REANEY (Examined by Champion). I have known you many years in connection with this organisation—I think the first meeting I asked you to come to was at the end of 1883 to debate the question of emigration—I heard you there in my hall, and in the street at the East-end—I took the chair in my hall, and desired to have the subject fully discussed by working men—I recollect the occasion when the Union conference ministers were there; we were all impressed with your earnestness, though we did not approve of your method, we thought you were somewhat after the line of Mr. Parnell—we were seeking what would be very good for the people—we thought you were a national

party seeking some remedy for the terrible distress in London—I heard the speech by Mr. Pearce, who said that it was the practice to make the poor discontented with their lot—I do not know whether any prosecution for sedition followed that.

By Hyndman. I hare known you some years in respect of this movement—you have spoken in the open air and in public halls, and it has always been an open and perfectly fair argument—you came first with Mr. Champion to consider the condition of the poor, which has grown much worse since—your speeches were directed to an economical change, and to the poor not getting a fair share of the good things of life, and endeavouring that they should get a greater share—I am not a member of the Democratic Federation.

FRANCIS MORRELL (By Champion). I am an artist, of 4, Langham Place—I am not a Socialist—I belong to no political organisation—I was at the meeting in Trafalgar Square on 8th February—I saw Burns there—I noticed him first at the foot of the pedestal of the Nelson Column and afterwards saw him mounted on the balustrade in front of the National Gallery—I was between 40 and 50 feet from him—I heard him speak; I can't say how long—his speech was much shorter on the balustrade than before—at the beginning he looked round at the crowd and said "I am speaking to 20,000 or 30,000 people; there are many contending elements present, and I hope you will go home to your homes quietly"—several voices said "We have got no home"—in the square, near where I was standing, there was a young man who was very demonstrative—he had got a loaf, I don't know whether it represented the big loaf or the little loaf, but he threw it at the crowd, and that kind of horseplay continued for some time—there seemed to be a man being jostled, and Burns leaned forward and said "Leave that man alone; don't be cowards;" and on the left of the speaker there was a waterproof or oilskin upon which men were pouring water, and he stopped it—I could hear Burns better than anybody else, his voice was stronger, but I could not catch all he said—I was listening very intently—I did not hear him say "We must have bread or they must have lead"—his oratory did not have an exciting effect on the crowd; it rather quieted them—they were rather more noisy before it—it seemed that the whole tenor of his speech was an endeavour to convey to the Government the need of the people, by causing a big meeting and impressing on the Government the wants of the people through the newspapers—that was the idea it gave me—I am quite an independent witness.

By Champion. I heard you speak in the square, but I have no recollection of what you said—the tenor of it was not such as to frighten me—I had heard you speak before, in Regent's Park, and the tenor of your speech was the same in Trafalgar Square—there was nothing to lead me to think there was a sinister design in your mind—I heard you mention the steps you had taken to bring the matter before the Government—I cannot give the details, there was such a noise and disturbance.

By Hyndman. I saw a man speaking by Mr. Burns on the balus-trade, but I did not hear what he said, his voice was so weak—if Mr. Burns had used the words about bread and lead, I am certain I should have heard that.

Cross-examined. I cannot recall Burns's speech to mind, although I

heard it all—the general drift was to speak to the perple to organize themselves, so that they could have more power in bringing their wants before the Government—I cannot recall any particular passage, or the substance of any passage—I did not hear him say that a good rope would be thrown away, but I heard a man in the crowd repeating it—I heard something about hanging and something about the aristocracy—I heard the word "revolution" spoken once under the pedestal—there was a reference by Burns to the bakers' shops, but it was different to the way it was given in the newspapers—there were qualifications—I did not hear him say "bakers' shops," I heard him say "West-end," but I certainly did not hear what they put in the newspapers—he said something about if the Government did not act, the shops at the West-end might be sacked, giving the example of the French Government in the last century, when they did not listen; it was qualified in that way—he also said in that same sentence that people went to him to get bread, and he told them to eat grass, and three weeks afterwards his head was on the lamp-post, with grass in his mouth—Burns did not speak of the West-end, he said Hyde Park, and he asked the crowd who were in favour of going there to hold up their hands—he was acting as chairman and made a number of short speeches—he may have spoken three or four times—I have said that in my opinion no disturbance would have taken place if the crowd had remained in the square, and had not gone West—of course, they moved through the West-end streets to get to Hyde Park; and then he said if the Government resisted the demands, or did not yield to them, the shops might be or would be sacked; it was qualified in this way, that it would lead probably to trouble, unless the appeal of the people was listened to—that was received with great applause by a certain amount of the crowd—the proposition to go to Hyde Park was made later on—a good many speakers followed—my opinion is that Burns did not use the words "bread and lead"—I do not know the powers of my ears, but I think I heard everything; I could not lay my life upon it, but so far as my observation went, he did not use them at all—it was a natural platform on the wall, and on Burns's right was a youngish man with his legs astride on the balustrade—the four defendants followed one another speaking, but I won't say they had all arrived as early—when Burns was leaving the monument he held up a red flag or handkerchief sometimes.

Re-examined by MR. THOMPSON. As far as I remember there was something said about a head on a lamp-post; it was when Governments do not listen to the people in the shape of a popular movement it will often lead to trouble, and then he gave an illustration from the French revolution—I did not hear him give an illustration about a Cabinet Minister—it is not likely that such a strong phrase as "bread and lead" could have escaped my attention—I did not understand Burns to address the crowd in such a way as would lead them to march to the West End and sack the shops, or I should have followed them—Burns did refer to French history as an illustration of what came to the Government by not listening to the popular movement.

By a JUROR. I know what 60 paces means, but I moved about a great deal; at one time I was very near the column, and it was very easy to hear Burns, but as the crowd got larger it was more difficult to follow the speakers.

DARCY MORRELL (By MR. THOMPSON). I am an artist, of Langham Place—I do not belong to any organisation—on 8th February I was in Trafalgar Square, attempting to make some sketches, and noticed Boras at the foot of the Nelson monument, and afterwards on the balustrade of the National Gallery, and I followed, and was about 45 feet from him when he spoke—the crowd swayed about and I took no verbatim report—he spoke of the Fair-trade meeting as paid agitators, and said that free trade and fair trade were of no special benefit, and that the Government should be pressed to reduce the hours of labour—I fancy he mentioned eight hours a day—the crowd got very noisy, and occasionally he leant down from the wall, evidently trying to quiet them, and saying "Leave the man alone, don't be cowards," or words to that effect—I did not hear him say "We must have bread or they must have lead"—I just caught enough to hear that he was referring to the events which occurred during the French Revolution—he had a red flag about 15 inches square, like this (produced), or slightly larger—I heard Williams speak, but could not catch what he said—there was a great deal of noise, and unless a man had a tremendous voice it was impossible to hear—if a gentleman standing 60 feet off or more could take down accurately what Burns said he must have had a hearing much finer than, my own—there was a great deal of horse play—there was no sign of organisation or drilling—there were legitimate workmen and a certain number of the populace which you see in large towns, sometimes called roughs, and sometimes called the dregs of the population, and they were the persons who were causing the disturbance as far as I could tell.

By Champion. I heard your voice in Trafalgar Square—I cannot swear to what you said—it was after a quarter to four when the procession left the square—I was 15 yards more or less from Burns when he was speaking, but pushing and shoving was going on.

By Hyndman. I heard you speak; I think your last sentence was that if people did nothing for themselves the fault was theirs, and they therefore had to organise themselves, and to press on their case, and if they did so they would very rapidly get many of their just demands.

Cross-examined. I am the brother of Francis Morrell; we went together—I have been in Court while he gave his evidence—I cannot say exactly that I agree with him as to some matters of detail, because there were some moments when he was not close to me, but his evidence is correct—I cannot swear that I heard the words about the heads on the lamp-posts; but there was some reference to what had been done in the French Revolution, when the people had not been listened to—I cannot say that I heard Burns say the next time they met it would be to sack the bakers' shops in the West End of London, and that they had better die fighting titan die starving—I did not hear him say "If we give the word will you join us?"—I was engaged on my sketching, trying to get some effects, and my elbows were being jogged by the crowd—I read some statements in the papers next day, and my idea was that the speeches were represented as being stronger and more inflammatory that what I heard; and when the prosecution began, and I heard special stress put upon the words "If we don't get bread they shall have lead," I bought it my duty to come forward, as I did not hear those words—I may have lost something Burns said, but not his emphatic sentences—it would depend upon the loudness of his voice—I do not remember Hyndman

saying that he and his friends would lead if they would follow, he and 500 men—I remembered many more sentences at the time than I do now—there was a very strong impression that it was a mistake about the bread and lead, and I volunteered my evidence—I heard some man in the crowd say something like it when Burns was speaking on the balustrade, and it struck me that they might possibly have been repeating words which they heard from the balustrade—there was a speaker on the balustrade who was not Mr. Burns.

Re-examined by MR. THOMPSON. I had no communication with either of the defendants.

Thursday, 8th April.

RIGHT HON. JOSEPH CHAMBERLAIN , M.P. (Examined by MR. THOMPSON). On 8th February I was President of the Local Government Board—on the 9th I received a communication that a deputation desired to see me—in response to that I sent a written minute—in answer to that I received a further communication—I forget whether some resolutions were attached—some resolutions were submitted to me; I produced them at Bow Street.

By Champion. I don't think I have ever said that I was in favour of a revolution on the Land question—I have said I am in favour of a reform—I deny that I am an expert in agitation—my speeches, published by Routledge, were roughly corrected by me—I could not undertake to speak for their verbal accuracy.

By the COURT. One of the defendants yesterday professed to quote from speeches of mine, but undoubtedly the quotation was garbled and misleading, and I should like to put it right—the quotation was regarding a statement made by me which it was suggested I used as an illustration applicable to the present day; the real fact is that my reference occurred in a speech on the subject of Free Trade—I was giving an historical account of the state of things in this country before the Corn Laws were abolished—my information was derived from contemporary pamphlets and histories—I pointed out to what a state of misery sand privation the people were reduced—I then quoted an anecdote that a certain Duke of Bedford, who was reported to Lave said the people ought to have recourse to a pinch of curry-powder, since they could not find food; and I went on to say at that time the state of things was dangerous, and I referred to the case of Foulon, who was a Frenchman, who laughed at the people in their misery, and said they ought to eat grass, and he was subsequently hung up to a lamp-post with a bunch of grass in his mouth—it was purely an historical anecdote, without any reference to the present day.

By Hyndman. I think the distress is exceptional, certainly; and I may say that, in my position as President of the Local Government Board, I recommended the various local authorities to take exceptional measures in order to reduce the distress—that was after I came into office; I could not do it before.

COLONEL FRANCIS DUNCAN , M.P. (By Champion). I am the Conservative Member for the Holborn Division of Finsbury—I received a communication from the Social Democratic Association, signed by a Secretary, requesting me to attend a meeting at Hatton Wall the following evening, 22nd January—I answered that I would do so, and I did—I recognise you as present at that meeting—I did not know your name—I have not seen you since—on arriving there I saw Mr. Spensley, the Liberal

Member for Finsbury—he was asking for the Secretary, who was not present; you, if I recollect right, went on the platform and addressed the meeting in a perfectly temperate manner; you said you had sent letters to the Board of Guardians and others, but the answers had not come—I went to the Guardians and also to the Home Secretary, and forwarded the papers, there the matter stopped—after that the Mansion House Fund was started—I think it was stated at the meeting that there were large vacant spaces in the neighbourhood, upon which houses might be built, which would give employment for the moment and better dwellings afterwards—I think allusion was made to something like starvation, and that the workhouses were overcrowded—I should say that the measures proposed were to set in motion the ordinary constitutional machinery in order to get relief—I received an invitation to attend a meeting at the Holborn Town Hall on 3rd February, and I declined to do so—so far from having done nothing to get relief for the unemployed, both parties had meetings in the House of Commons, and appointed executive committees and appointed meetings with all the public bodies in London, got reports from them, and offered in every way Members of Parliament could to assist, and we have always worked with the Mansion House Fund—I cannot say that those steps were taken in consequence of our attention being directed to the distress by your committee—the sending the letters to the Home Secretary and the Local Government Board was distinctly recommended by the committee of the meeting I attended, but the distress was made known to us by the public press day after day—I was informed next day by the Guardians that steps had been taken, that they were relieving in a very generous way—the rpoter was that there was considerable distress among those who were just above paupers, which has been confirmed by inquiries we have made.

Cross-examined. There is no ground for suggesting that Members of Parliament and local bodies were indifferent to the distress and were not taking steps to relieve it; so far from that, I have seen most active steps taken both in Parliament and out—I declined to attend the meeting on 3rd February because I began to be afraid, not liking the title of the Society—I had complied with the request made to me, and thought I had done enough.

JAMES DAVEY (By Hyndman). I live at Rockingham Road, Battersea, and am a carpenter—I was at the meeting of the unemployed on 8th February—I saw Burns there, first on the Nelson monument and afterwards on the balustrade in front of the National Gallery—I was about nine feet from him—I arrived at the meeting about 12.30—I should think it was between 1 and 2 when I saw Burns on the balustrade, I can't say to half an hour—I heard him make a speech; I listened to it attentively from beginning to end—I did not hear him use the expression "If we don't get bread they will get lead"—if he had said that I certainly must have heard it—I beard him say "The beet way to get work was to bring their case before the Government," or to have some organised system of labour, or something like it—I heard Williams speak; I don't remember much that he said—Burns's speech did not appear to excite the crowd—I have heard him speak on previous occasions, this one was not more violent or different from the others—I left the Square with the section which went westward, there was a stop opposite the Carlton; there had been no disturbance up to that time—I saw

some members of the club at the window, looking out on the people, it seemed to me as if they were jeering at us, and the crowd said "They are only laughing and jeering at us"—I then noticed stones or something slung at the windows—I think it was stones, some hard substance it must be, it broke the glass—I won't swear it was stones, I did not see it—in my opinion the throwing was caused by the jeering at the windows—I saw Burns in the crowd at this time, I did not notice Williams there—I heard Burns tell the people to stop throwing stones—he got on the railings of the club and spoke, and shouted out to stop throwing stones, and he caught hold of some of them—he did that at some risk to himself, I should not like to have tried it—I afterwards saw Williams in Piccadilly—I saw him catch hold of people and tell them not to throw stones or damage property, or molest loot passengers that were coming in the opposite direction, he did that more than once, at different places down Piccadilly—when we got to Hyde Park gates about two-thirds of the people went towards Oxford Street, the rest stopped at the Achilles statue—I heard Burns speak there, I was about four or live feet from him—he said "We intend to submit to the Government the resolutions that were passed in Trafalgar Square," and he told the crowd to disperse and go home quietly—I did not hear him say" We have shown them what we have done with stones to-day, we will show them what we can do with powder and shot to-morrow"—I remember words to this effect, "We have shown them to-day by our march, our poverty and our determination"—I heard Williams speak, he counselled the people to go home peaceably and disperse, and he said he was surprised that working men should molest foot passengers and timid women, something to that effect—I was there at the break-up of the crowd; they went home, I believe, I know I did; some went one way and some another.

By Champion. I heard you speak in Trafalgar Square, I don't remember what you said—I should think the procession left the Square about 4, it took about half an hour to get from there to the park—I heard you counsel the crowd to go home quietly and disperse—I heard you say you knew very well that they couldn't stand against soldiers, something to that effect, not against the police—I did not hear the crowd dissent from what you said—the speeches took about 20 minutes—before the speaking a large portion of the crowd had gone towards Mayfair.

By Hyndman. I remained in the squire from half-past 12 till the crowd left there was a good deal of horseplay going on, not at the time Burns was speaking on the Nelson statue, but afterwards, and there was a good deal of pushing and shoving—I was about 10 feet from the pedestal then; I could see well what was going on—there was no disturbance then, it was all quiet—the crowd looked to me as if it was a body of unemployed workmen—I heard your speech, I was above then; you spoke about 10 minutes I should say—you spoke first—I don't remember what you did say, not to be sure—I have often heard you speak before—you didn't speak more violently or strongly on this occasion—I have been to large demonstrations when you have addressed thousands of men, and no riot or disturbance followed—I believe this meeting was called by the Fair-traders, not by the Social Democrats—I should think Burns left the square about 4 o'clock—I saw no clock—I saw the flag he held in his hand, it was a red rag—the crowd was going along peacefully, walking fast; I saw no stones thrown till we got to

the Carlton; it was the signs of contempt at the windows there that affected the crowd—I did not notice anything from the club but the jeering; if anything had been thrown from the club I might not have seen it—I saw things falling about, but I don't know where they came from—it could not have been gravel that the crowd threw, it was something larger than gravel—I only saw one policeman, and that was in Pall Mall, at the bottom of St. James's Street—I saw some policemen in Hyde Park—I didn't see any along Piccadilly—I should judge it was about half-past 4 o'clock when we got to Hyde Park—I saw a body of men go up the right-hand side, away from the statue—I heard you speak there—I don't remember hearing any ejaculations in the crowd while Burns was speaking, the crowd was orderly; I went home—I am a Socialist—I am not employed now, I was at that time.

Cross-examined. I have been a member of this Federation for 10 or 12 months—I attend a good many of their meetings—by Socialism I understand equal rights for all—I don't say that it means an equal share of property for all—I don't know what social rights for all are, I don't intend to go into that now—I think I have an idea what it means, it means that everybody should get a fair start—I have never spoken at any of the meetings—I cannot recall what was said, except by Burns in Trafalgar Square—I heard him talk of starting public works without the intervention of a contractor; I think that was in the resolution—I heard him tell the people not to damage the property which their labour had produced—I heard him ask those present who were in favour of going to Hyde Park to hold up their hands—I heard him say something about wasting good rope, but I couldn't understand it till I looked in the Echo at night; but I think that was an exaggeration—I know something was said about rope, but I don't know what it was—I remember hearing him say it was no use trying to get justice from such as the Duke of Westminster and his class or the capitalists, and about the men in blouses being laughed at in France, and something about decorating the lamp-post; I don't remember that it was their heads—I don't remember his saying that the Democratic League wanted to settle affairs peaceably if they could, but if they could not they would not shrink from revolution; he may have said revolution, I don't remember—something was said about the bakers' shops and the shops at the West End; I think it was, if it was necessary to call another meeting, probably it might be to sack the bakers' shops at the West End—that was it as near as I can say, I wouldn't swear to it—I think it was only the bakers' shops; he said something about having too much talk—I have heard a good many of the defendant's speeches at meetings—they were the ordinary run of speeches like those at Trafalgar Square, and at the Achilles statue—I don't remember his saying, "The next time it will not be to move resolutions, but to take the wealth from those who daily rob us of it"—I did not hear Burns say anything about bread and lead, nor did I hear anybody else say it—I heard Burns say something about probably being in prison next day—I heard the remark, "We are not strong enough at present to cope with an armed force," but I cannot swear whether it was him or not, or who said it—I heard it from one of the speakers—I did not hear him say, "When we give the signal will you rise?"—I think I should have heard it if he had said it; I was only two or three feet from him—I believe it was Champion who said they

could not stand against soldiers, and he said something to the effect, "Many of you have friends in the army; go and tell them, so that when the day comes for taking sides they will side with you"—I saw nothing thrown from the windows of the Carlton—it was not smiling that I saw at the windows, it was something like jeering, tossing up the head—it was upon that that the stones were thrown—there was a stop opposite the club, and Burns made a short speech there—it was just as he was finishing up that I noticed the people at the windows and the stones were thrown.

Re-examined by MR. THOMPSON. There was laughing as well as jeering, in a contemptuous way; they looked very scornful after the stones were thrown, not before; they looked as if they were glad to see us in the position we were, that is all I can say; I felt irritated and so was the crowd—I understand one of the objects of the Socialists is not to work more than eight hours a day, and less if you can get it, I don't mean no work at all, I believe in work.

JAMES BIGWOOD, ESQ. , M.P. I am Conservative Member for the East Division of Finsbury—on 13th January a message was brought to me at the House of Commons, that a deputation was waiting to see me; I came out of the lobby and saw Champion amongst others; he expressed himself as desirous that I should move in the House of Commons that relief works should be established at once, for the benefit of the suffering poor; I refused to do that, I stated my opinion did not coincide with it, nor that the amount of distress was so great in that particular district; I also said I did not think the House was in a temper of mind to listen with that attention which it might otherwise deserve; I said I did not think the distress was exceptional, and upon that I based my refusal to move—you brought to my notice some private investigations of your own, and you said the object of public meetings was to draw attention to the state of things—you said that in your opinion the distress was so great that the temper of the people would be dangerous, and you urged attention to these things as a matter of public safety as well as in the interests of the unemployed themselves—I might have received an invitation to attend a meeting at the Holborn Town Hall afterwards, but I don't remember it; I am under the impression that I did not receive any such notice—I was in communication with the Guardians, and their opinion somewhat coincided with my own—that was subsequent to our interview in the House of Commons—I received an invitation to sit on a Committee with other Metropolitan members to inquire into this matter.

By Hyndman. I heard Mr. Chamberlain's speech in the House of Commons on the amount of distress; he said that he found the distress was excessive, and quite exceptional amongst a certain class.

ALFRED HOARE (Examined by Champion). I am a member of the Holborn Board of Guardians—on 27th January you came with a deputation from the unemployed to the Board of Guardians and requested the Guardians to make an inquiry to test the accuracy of a report you had made as the result of an inquiry into the distress, and also to use their influence to induce the Local Boards to give as much work as possible, and I am not quite sure whether you asked the Guardians to apply for permission from the Local Government Board to give more outdoor relief—the Guardians did apply for it—I am not sure if it was your proposition—I should say you represented that there were 40 per cent, in want of employment in certain districts—the relieving officers stated when they

came before the Board that they did not consider the amount of distress exceptional, but on being pressed they said there was more illness in consequence of the low state to which the people were reduced, and one of the officers said he thought there was much distress—I think we called them up as the result of your deputation—we wrote to the Local Government Board as to relief works and outdoor relief—it might have been a week, a fortnight, or a month before we got an answer—I cannot say at all—I moved that a Committee of Guardians should be appointed to inquire into the distress, apart from the relieving officers, as the result of your deputation—we investigated not quite the Tory poorest streets, such as you had selected, and on working out the result I found about 20 per cent of able-bodied men were out of work—we opened a stone-yard, and the medical officers gave relieving orders to those whose debility was produced by want of food—I don't think the deputation had much to do with that—we did not apply to the Local Government Board for leave to grant outdoor relief till the deputation came—you were the spokesman of that deputation—the impression left on my mind was that you had given a very careful study to this social question, and had a very clear grasp of the Poor Law, and you proposed that the Guardians and Government authorities should take steps to diminish the immediate distress as a ample method of philanthropy, without regard to Socialism or any measures of that sort—the Boards of Guardians are bound hand and foot by the regulations of the Local Government Board, but that has its inspectors—I know last year you were advising the Local Government Board to give to the Boards of Guardians leave to give relief, and you were referred to us, who had no power-of action—we made representations after this deputation—I am a banker, not a Socialist—I have since discussed Socialism with you, and find it is a complicated subject, not very easy to understand.

By Hyndman. I felt the circumstances were very bad, and felt a great sympathy for the unemployed and with anything that would benefit them.

Cross-examined. We are limited as to outdoor relief—I understand it is a legal question if the Local Government Board have power to grant a relaxation, if occasion requires it—everybody on the Board of Guardians realised that they should do the best they could; they showed no want of feeling with reference to the sufferings of the people—some felt it was caused by circumstances and some by the people's own fault.

By Champion. It was pointed out that we could open labour yards and improve graveyards, and in that way employment was given—in the labour yard 10d. a day was given for breaking stones, and I moved that it should be 1s. for married men, with a little bread.

THE RIGHT HON. HUGH C. E. CHILDERS (Examined by Hyndman). I am Secretary of State for the Home Department—I believe about the 11th or 12th February I received from Mr. Gladstone's private secretary's some proposals that had been sent by you to him—I decided after advice and stated in Parliament that this prosecution would take place—in substance I stated in Parliament that the riots were caused by the Socialists, who came in numbers to Trafalgar Square—I cannot say whether I used the words "instigator "or "inciter "in the Mouse of Commons—I reported to the House on the information given to me as to those who ought to be dealt with in respect of that riot—I was in Australia thirty years ago—

I have no knowledge of relief works having been started there with advantage.

By Champion. Mr. Broadhurst is the Under-Secretary—I don't know that he was through Trafalgar Square three times on the Monday—a committee was appointed to inquire into the origin and character of the riots, and it had before it the whole of the evidence as to the conduct of the police authorities—Sir Edmund Henderson resigned after that report—to my knowledge there is no measure promoted by the Home Office before the House of Commons to relieve the distress at present existing.

By MR. THOMPSON. The report recommended that the reorganisation of the police force should be taken up, and I stated in Parliament that when the new Chief Commissioner had been appointed I should take in hand an inquiry with a view to reorganisation,; that was the result of the inquiry and the report.

By the JURY. I don't think there is a material difference between incitor and instigator—I am not sure which word I used.

HENRY WILLIAM PRIMROSE (By MR. THOMPSON). I am Mr. Gladstone's Principal Secretary—on the 12th February (four days after the occurrence) the prisoners called at the Prime Minister's official residence with a view of asking for an interview with Mr. Gladstone—I told him, and he said it was quite impossible for him to see them, but that if they had any communication to make and would put it in writing it should have his attention—they put it in writing; this is it: "We, the undersigned, having received this morning several applications to address meetings of workmen in and out of London, wish to know whether the Government have decided to commence works/' &c.;—no answer was given to that—I sent it on to the Home Office—I wrote a letter in answer to a subsequent communication.

SAMUEL BRIGHTY (By Champion). I am a member of the Holborn Board of Guardians—I remember the receipt by them, of a communication from 39, Hatton Wall, the Social Democratic Federation, on Wednesday, 20th January, referring to the distress alleged to exist in that district—no steps had been taken before that time by our Board to meet any exceptional distress—that letter was referred, on my motion, to a Committee of the Board, and on the following Wednesday a deputation waited on the Board—you were among the four or five that entered the Board room, leaving a large number outside—after you had addressed the Board and withdrawn, the Board discussed the whole question and passed three resolutions, one which Mr. Hoare has referred to, asking the local Government Board to give exceptional power to deal with able-bodied men—the second was asking the Clerkenwell district of Holborn for work to men living in the Union, and the third was to write to the Local Government Board, asking them to commence the new offices about being built somewhere in Whitehall at once, for the purpose of making work, and also to complete the arrangements for clearing away the site of the House of Correction, that artisans' dwellings might be built in the neighbourhood—the Board acceded to your moderate requests—at your request I attended a meeting of the body, it was perfectly open—our resolutions wore forwarded to the Government—I cannot tell what the Government have done in reply to our resolutions—the power of the Boards of Guardians to give relief is strictly confined under the consolidated orders of the Local Government Board, and that power can only be increased by

the Local Government Board—the only means the Local Government Board have of knowing whether exceptional distress exists are from Exports of the Boards and of their inspectors, and those have been met by the statistics of the relieving officers, showing no exceptional distress—our committee found a grave amount of distress among workmen from want of employment—I went to see many districts, and sent down many cases for relief, and had children sent to school that were in a wretched condition—we suggested that in the cases of a large number of able-bodied men who could not get relief, the doctor should give a certificate if any of the children were ill through debility, so that we could give the families coals and food—numbers of the working class were reduced to a state of no food, no coals, no blankets, and no sheets—nothing was done till the deputation came from Hatton Wall—finally the Local Government Board told us they could not grant us exceptional power of relief to able-bodied men, but that we could open a labour yard, and watchmakers, carpenters, and skilled labourers were sent to break stones at 10d. a day, with 2d. extra and bread for the married men—the Guardians were dealing with things in the ordinary way, and these things would not come to their notice—in one street I was in myself there were 35 men out of employment—a large number of men out of employment were labourers, painters, and men of all trades in fact—you asked that houses should be built on the waste lands; that the Board had no power to do—there are waste places in Clerkenwell—the committee proved there was a large amount of overcrowding—the death-rate is bad there, owing to the physical condition of the people, so that they are suffering and dying owing to want, and are crowded together.

By Hyndman. I am a working man myself, I have never known distress so bad as it is now among my class in Clerkenwell, it is altogether exceptional—no exceptional steps whatever were taken to deal with it until your application was made; I know of none being taken, I cannot say if they will be—I know the Social Democratic Federation had been in existence some years, and I have had some of its things—I am not a member of it—I fancy I have a recollection of speaking at Foresters' Hall some years ago.

FRANCIS CONNOLLY (By MR. THOMPSON). I live at Foley Street, Marylebone, and am a tailor—I am in employment now, I was not on 8th February—I then attended the meeting in Trafalgar Square—I am not a Socialist—I arrived there between 20 minutes and a quarter to three—I saw Burns on the balustrade facing the National Gallery, and went up to hear him speak—I was 15 to 20 yards from him, he was nearly at the end of his speech when I arrived; I heard him denouncing the Fair Traders in general terms; I heard him use no words about bread and lead—I ran off to see them duck a Fair Trader just as Williams began to speak, and when I came back I heard him quoting the words from Shelley—the crowd was full of mischievous fun—I left Trafalgar Square with the body that moved west—when I got opposite the Carlton there was a pause for about five or six minutes; I saw a great number of people in the windows; they were laughing at the crowd—I saw a gentleman in the window point to a man in a very ragged coat, and they all began to laugh—I saw some milk cans fall from what I took to be the Carlton, from a very great height—I was hit with some pieces of soap and boiled potatoes—I went on to Hyde Park, I was near Burns and Williams, the entire route—I saw some of the roughs in the crowd trying to loot Dare the hosier's shop; Williams pulled them

away, and prevented them as much as was possible for one man—I saw a gentleman struck several times, and Williams ran after him, and called on some of us to protect the gentleman, and we did so—I saw men with stones in their hands in Piccadilly—in Stratton Place, at the Baroness Burdett Coutts's, I think, there was a cart filled with stones—William pulled the stones out of the men's hands repeatedly through the entire route—once when the men were attacking some ladies, he shouted out "You are cowards and not men to act in such a way"—he several times told them to stop stone throwing—it was a very dangerous thing for him to do, and I think he suffered by it—when the crowd neared the gates of Hyde Park, a portion detached itself from the main body, and went up Park Lane, and the remainder went in the park gate—the crowd kept breaking away towards Oxford Street and the Marble Arch—I came up to the Achilles Statue, and was near enough to hear Burns make a speech, I was only two or three feet from him—I was there before he began—the opening of his speech was "You have shown them to-day by your procession, your poverty and your misery"—I swear positively he did not say "We have shown them to-day what we can do with stones, and we will show them at our next meeting what we can do with powder and shot," nor did he use words to that effect—when they were dispersing he told them several times to go home quietly, he kept repeating that—Williams denounced the cowardly conduct of the men in the Park, who were breaking open carriages, and assaulting ladies and gentlemen—after the speeches, those round the statue at the time went away very quietly—there were small knots of people scattered all over the roadway, as far as I could see, and as far as I could see after the meeting broke up they dispersed and went away very quietly.

By Champion. I did not hear you speak in Trafalgar Square—immediately you started speaking in Hyde Park there was an interjection from the crowd, "The soldiers are coming," and another voice said "Shoot them down"—you said "It is all very well for you to say 'Shoot them down,' but they are organised, and you are unorganised"—there was great sense in that remark—I believe there was something said about shooting the aristocracy, I cannot swear to that—I heard you denounce the crowd for their cowardly conduct in attacking people in the park—you said it was a system you were attacking, not individuals—the meeting at the Achilles statue was over at 15 minutes to 5 by the Piccadilly gates clock, I swear that positively.

By Hyndman. The working-class portion of the crowd at Trafalgar Square and Pall Mall was very orderly—I did not hear you speak—it was my impression that the attitude of the people in the Carlton Club produced some effect—I saw a knife thrown at the Carlton, no large stones were thrown at it—the crowd round the Achilles statue was very quiet indeed—I heard a great many ejaculations and interruptions from the crowd while Burns was speaking—I did not hear the phrase at all to my recollection about powder and shot, and I heard also very repeatedly ejaculations in Trafalgar Square—I repeatedly heard the ejaculation "Hang them," I ejaculated it myself as a joke—I did not think there was any prospect of setting to work to hang them then and there. I wish here was—I was out of employment then, and felt and feel very bitterly its to my situation—I heard you speak from the Achilles statue—some remark was made from the crowd about shooting them, or something of

the sort, and you said "It is no use you men talking like that; Mr. Champion, who is an artillery officer, will tell you it is no use unarmed men attacking armed men "—you said the men who looted shops and rioted were not the friends of Socialism, but their enemies—I saw several bodies go off towards Stanhope Gate before we arrived—I saw one body go towards Park Lane—I should think the speaking at the statue lasted for a quarter of an hour, and then the crowd peaceably dispersed.

Cross-examined by the ATTORNEY-GENERAL. I heard Burns say at Trafalgar square that those men calling themselves Fair Traders were bogus labour representatives of the working classes; I only heard the concluding part of his first speech, I remember nothing more of it—I heard him make several remarks when he was introducing the different speakers, nothing more—if he had made anything of an inflammatory speech I should have noticed it—Burns made a speech opposite the Carlton—a stop was made there simply because of the laughing and jeering in the window—I did not hear Davey examined—the jeering was the cause of the stop-page—the crowd forced Burns to stop, to make him see they were laughing at our poverty; I was one of those that caused him to stop—some gentlemen were pointing to people and to one man with a ragged coat in the crowd—I believe the milk cans fell from the top of the club—I don't suggest the gentlemen threw them; they were not thrown back at the club—I saw a knife but no stones thrown—I did not hear Hynd-man or Champion speak in Trafalgar Square—in Hyde Park directly Champion started speaking the crowd interjected "Soldiers," and some one said "Shoot them/' and Champion said "It is very well to say shoot them, but they are organised and you are disorganised"—that is all I recollect of what he said—Hyndman denounced their conduct as being cowardly in the extreme in attacking individuals as they had done, and Williams said the same—the phrase powder and shot was not used by anybody when Burns was speaking, to my recollection—I did not hear anybody say it; if Burns had said it I should have remarked it—I believe I heard something like "We will Choose the time when we are strong enough to go, not before; it is not worth while losing one life for breaking a window"—I do not recollect his saying "When we lay down our lives it will be on behalf of the hungry," nor "I hope you will go away, and when we next meet we will tell you what to do"—I heard him tell them to disperse quietly—I heard him say "Probably all the speakers here to-day will be in prison to-morrow," and "I hope so"—I did not hear him say "The more they prosecute the greater the cause of the workers will become," &c.; nor "The signal will be given if the Government will not move"—I heard something to the general effect of what has been given as Champion's speech—the words "Hang them" were ejaculated several times by a good many in Trafalgar Square—I was in rather an angry mood, and am in the same now—it was the Fair Traders I wished to hang; I called it out in a joke as much as anything else—I meant by what I said just now that I would like to hang the promoters of Fair Trade, Lord Dunraven and that gang of people, not the workmen.

Re-examined by Hyndman. I said about hanging more or less as a joke—I do not belong to the Social Democratic Federation, and am not a Socialist.

JOSEPH HENRY DUNLOP (Police Superintendent A). I was present at the Trafalgar Square meeting on the 8th February, in charge of a body of

police at the base of the Nelson Column—Burns commenced speaking on the base of the column, and I told him it was contrary to the regulations and could not be allowed; he said "If you will give me a few moments there shall be no row, and I will clear the column for you"—I permitted him to do so—he listened to everything I had to say very respectfully—several men got on the lions, and he shouted to them and reminded them that the pillar had been built with their money, and they should not damage it, and they acted on his suggestion at once and got off—the people at the base of the monument were rather turbulent; the police were driven about, and were not allowed to hear what was said—Burns seemed to have great control over them—they cheered him and he cleared the column in a very few minutes—he assisted rather than obstructed us.

By Hyndman. I have known of the Social Democratic Federation four or five years; I have had nothing to do with their meetings—I should probably have heard had they been noisy or riotous—nothing of that sort has been officially brought to my notice—after addressing the crowd Burns left the column quite peaceably—there was a great deal of swinging about in the crowd—if a reporter was in the crowd it would have been very difficult for him to take notes accurately; but if he was on the column it would be easy—I could not hear more than half a dozen words; we were driven about by the swing of the crowd—it was a very rough crowd, and a very turbulent one, they were ready for anything in my opinion—there was a dense mass of ruffianism in addition to the working-men—you had not so much to do with them as the police had—they were as likely to turn on you as on anybody, if it would have suited their purpose—I had no time for listening, I was taken up with preserving order—I was thrown down about a dozen times between the column and the end of Northumberland Avenue, and so were some of my men; the pressure was enormous; it was a big mob and very noisy—I am referring to that part where I was—I could not get to the west part of the square—there was noise all over the place—there was a great mass of ruffianism where I was—Burns assisted me to the best of his ability to keep order.

By Champion. I don't know if any of my men attend the meetings of the social Democratic Federation; there is no order forbidding their attendance.

Cross-examined. A small red flag was handed up to Burns at the Nelson Column; he called for three cheers for the Social Revolution, waved the flag, and jumped down—that was cheered, but not so much as one would have imagined—he seemed to have great control over the mob by their clearing the column directly he spoke to them—I remained about there till the evening—I did not see nor hear any of the speaking in front of the National Gallery.

Re-examined by MR. THOMPSON. The flag looked like a red pocket-handkerchief on a stick.

By Hyndman. Burns has a very fine voice and clear delivery.

WILLIAM THOMPSON STEAD . I am the editor of the Pall Mall Gazette—on 8th February I attended for journalistic purposes the meeting in Trafalgar Square—I saw a large crowd of people—I have seen a great number of large crowds—this had distinctive features, there were more

blackguards than usual; Mr. Bradlaugh's crowd was several shades more respectable; you ought to have taken care of your watch if you went into this crowd—among them were many whom I should have considered as the genuine unemployed—I saw no violence, except that one man was tipped over into one of the basins—I saw nothing approaching what Inspector Dunlop has spoken of, but I was where the meeting was, and he seems to have been near Northumberland Avenue, where the crowds converged—the fair traders came up later, and there was a good deal of squeezing there—I had no difficulty in circulation about the meeting—I arrived there about 2 o'clock, and was there for an hour—I heard all the speeches except Hyndman's, who was just beginning as I left to hear the fair traders—it was difficult to help hearing Burns speak, he has a voice like a bull; I heard every word of his first speech from the balustrade—I took no notes—he generally expressed utter lack of confidence in the governing classes, and declared that persons could not be trusted to legislate impartially if they were very deeply interested on one side of the question on which they had to legislate—I think it met with very general approval because it was obviously true, and then he went on to speak in a more warning tone, after the fashion of a man in earnest addressing a large mass of more or lees ignorant persons, and as it was his duty to do, because if you see there is great danger coming on the community unless a certain class stands out of the way, you are bound to use warning language to tell them the deluge is coming, as Noah did—he said it was the habit of the comfortable governing classes to turn a deaf ear to the cries and complaints of those oppressed all over the country, and that that was a dangerous thing, and he proceeded to illustrate that by referring to the fashion in which the starving lower classes of France had applied again and again for bread, and been met by jeers and taunts, until the heads of the jeerers were stuck on lamp-posts—that historical illustration was perfectly apposite and to the point; everybody would use it—then he referred to the political class at Westminster, and inquired how justice could be expected from them, and that they wanted charity, not justice—a small knot of believers in Hyndman as the high priest of the Social Democratic Federation called out, "Hang them," to encourage him; and then Mr. Burns said, "Hanging is too good for them, it would spoil the rope;" and then they all laughed, it was such a fantastical joke—it was only said as a relief to feeling—that was the substance of what Burns said—he never used the expression about bread and lead when I was there, and I heard the whole of his speech; it was used by none of the speakers I heard—I left about 3.10—I had heard him before near the Nelson Column—I heard no other speeches from him—I think Champion spoke next, and then Williams—I saw Hyndman get up and I left—the effect of Burns' speech on the crowd was varied according to the composition of the crowd—the believers in social democracy were before me, but those round were smoking and gossiping, and one man said to me, "We don't hold with them chaps, they go too far, but I think some good will come out of this agitation;" and that I think was the general feeling round about—I have a distinct impression, after hearing the three speeches, that most if not all of them most strongly impressed on the crowd that they were not to be guilty of any violence whatever—that was the general purport of all the speeches I heard—one of the speakers asked

all the unemployed to hold up their hands—the red flag wan a twopenny-halfpenny thing, not so good as a guard waves when he sends a train off—I think I heard everything Williams said—they all preached a sermon from the same text, and said pretty generally the same things, but the most striking thing Williams said was his quotation from Shelley—it struck me as rather a good remark, and certainly as nothing out of the way to tell the crowd they were many and the governing classes few—at the end he said the fear of God had ceased to be a power with the governing classes, and I think he specially mentioned Chamberlain, and that now he was President of the Local Government Board it was a chance to see whether he cared anything for the toiling poor; and that as the fear of God was not a power with the governing classes, the time had come to put the fear of man into their hearts—I think he meant that was the only fear they recognised—I certainly did not expect there would be any ri t after the speeches I heard, and none of my staff expected a riot as they came down at 3.30 to get an edition out—I should have been there myself if I had expected a riot—I was incredulous when I was afterwards told about the riot.

By Champion. You made a very short straightforward speech, in which you sail that ignorant people were starving and that it would not do to lock up the whole question for ever by reference to committees or something of the kind, but that you wanted immediate help and relief which you could not get, because Parliament and Government moved slowly—but that if they were sufficiently earnest about relieving distress they could pass a bill very rapidly, and you referred to the Dynamite Bill being passed in twenty-four hours—so far from being an inflammatory speech, it was merely a recapitulatory statement of what had been done—you had studied the subject because about a week before you sent a letter to me at the office of the paper—I said I could not trust evidence and should have to go into it myself or send some one to do so; it gave a return of people out of work in certain streets—I have made investigations—it was the black flag being hoisted on the 22nd that led to my investigations within three or four days after I came out of gaol.

By Hyndman. You came to me on 1st February—I have known you five or six years—you wanted an article written—I have known of your agitation in favour of the unemployed, for two or three years—I think we published at the end of 1883 or earlier, some debates at the East End on practical politics—I do not remember whether we published the manifesto which has been produced—I asked you whether you had any facts, and you sent me the record which had been taken by the Social Democratic Federation, and I upon that started the investigation which I have lately published—you only sent me the figures of those who were out of work and in work, I did not come to the conclusion that you were exaggerating it, it was a question of figures, you said there were so many per cent—we had three or four reporters in Trafalgar Square and we could have told more off—I have heard many open air meetings in the North of England, and have had a great deal of experience, the talk was not stronger than I have heard there—what I heard Burns, Williams and Champion say, did not convey the idea that they were going to bring the Day of Judgment on; on the contrary you said that you wanted the period postponed—the language was the same as I have heard Mr.

Chamberlain, Mr. Bright and other agitators use—I know that you have written many books, pamphlets and articles, I think you can put a good deal of strong language into a book—I have known you for some years as an economical writer—my experience of the meeting was that it was nothing more than I had heard many times before—it was your usual stock in trade that you have been speaking for two or three years and you never made a row, and you would not have made a row then if there had been any policemen about—you came an hour sooner and settled the fair trade audience for them—I think you have done good.

Cross-examined by MR. POLAND. I took the precaution to go yesterday to Trafalgar Square and step the distance, and I stood sixteen paces from the balustrade and near one of the fountains—Burns was on the balustrade so high that if I had been on the same level I should have been 15 feet in the air—I could move about by a judicious moving of my elbows, I went in and out because I was there to talk to the people, I had no difficulty in circulating among them—I only heard one speaker, Mr. Buns, his voice was like a bull, I mean a roar, and by the time he got to the end of his first speech he had roared himself out—I had no difficulty in hearing him, nobody could make a mistake about it—the next speaker was Champion and then Williams—I went away as soon as Hyndman began to speak and went to the spot where the free trade meeting was, and heard the beginning of a speech, but they talked such nonsense that I went away—I made no notes, but when I went to the office I found that no one had reported it, and therefore I wrote out the same afternoon within a quarter of an hour what I had heard—my notes are published—here is a copy of them—I did not do Burns' speech, one of my reporters did that, I did Champion's and Williams's—you may take it that this is the substance of what Champion said, and then followed Williams—this is what I wrote out the same night from memory this is a correct account, but very much condensed. (The notes were put in).

By MR. THOMPSON. I do not pledge myself to the verbal accuracy of the speech—I can report a speech from memory without notes.

By Hyndman. I think the crowd of roughs moved about in a kind of swaying way to see what they could pick up, and when they got close to the balustrade they got jammed up—I saw no horseplay—I have said that this kind of thing has been bread and meat to you for two years, by which I meant that you have done it morning, noon and night—I believe it has been a matter of impoverishment to you.

ERNEST ROSSITER (By MR. THOMPSON). I am a transfer agent, of Union Road, Newington Causeway—on 8th February, about five minutes to three, I happened to be in Trafalgar Square—I heard Burns speak from the balus-trade on the north side of the square—a great many people arrived about three o'clock and at first I was a good distance off, but I gradually got nearer to the speakers—Burns was not speaking at first, he appeared to be chairman of the meeting—I afterwards heard him speak, but could not hear all he said as there was horseplay going on, the general gist of his speech was that things were in a shocking way, people were starving, and it was the duty of the Government to provide immediate work for them, and in his opinion they ought to do all they could to impress that upon the Government—I don't remember that he gave them any counsel as to how they ought to behave themselves, but it is two months ago—I don't remember his saying "If we don't get bread they will get lead"; if he had it would

have struck me and I should have remembered it, he certainly did not say it in my hearing—I am not a Socialist, nor have I any connection with them—I have seen the defendants at public meetings, but do not know them personally—Burns seemed to be an agitator and nothing else; he appeared very earnest in the cause of the unemployed, but nothing out of the way; I say that as a perfectly independent witness—I heard some one speak who was introduced as a dock labourer; I think it was Williams—he likewise seemed very earnest in the cause of the unemployed; he spoke of the struggles of his class at the docks for work, and the great hardships that he had to put up with, and that it was the duty of the Government to give them work; I don't remember it all—I remember the crowd moving to Cockspur Street; I went with it as far as the Carlton Club—up to that point no damage had been done; there were a lot of gentlemen at each window of the club; their attitude seemed to have an exasperating influence on the crowd; I was very much struck with it—I saw people at the club laughing somewhat derisively, and it seemed to provoke the people near me, who appeared very bitter to the people at the Carlton—I have never heard such bitter remarks before as I heard on that occasion from the people standing near me—I remember the phrases they used, but I don't care to mention them because they were not pious—I saw Burns on the balustrade or wall—I didn't notice what he said because I was shoved about in the crowd, but I heard him speaking to the people, a man near me got his eye cut, and I was anxious for my own safety—I think Burns shouted to get some gentleman out of the crowd into the Carlton, he called "Take him inside; get him inside"—Burns remonstrated with several persons in the crowd, a man had something in his hand; my impression is that it was a stone, and Burns told him about it and I saw something drop from his hand—Burns appeared to be very angry with him—I saw Williams in the crowd; he appeared to be very much concerned with their attitude at the Carlton and alarmed, for they were under no control after they left the Carlton—I do not think anyone could have had any command over them—after that I saw Williams go up to several people and speak rather roughly to them about stonethrowing.

By Champion. I opposed you some time ago as I have opposed lots of hotheaded people, on Socialism—I was not much alarmed during the speeches in Trafalgar Square—you suggested that the Government ought to introduce relief work.

Cross-examined. I think Mr. Burns said something more; he introduced each speaker, but I did not hear his first speech, I heard his last speech—I was there when the meeting broke up, and heard somebody say something about going to the West End—I cannot say whether it was Burns or not—I do not remember any one saying that next time they would sack the bakers' shops in the West, and I will not try to remember—I will not undertake to say that it was not said.

HADLAND (Affirmed). I am an agnostic, and live at Grenwich Road, Islington—I am a bootmaker—I was at Trafalgar Square on February 8th, and stood just below Burns—I arrived just as he mounted the balustrade, and heard the whole of his several speeches—his first speech was denouncing the free-traders, he said that their meeting was a bogus agitation got up for the Tory party, and not in the interests of working men at all—he spoke as he has spoken at every place, in favour

of our proposal for establishing works on farms and factories—I did not bear him say "If we don't get bread they must have lead," and I heard all his speeches—I went with the crowd clown Pall Mall; they stopped opposite the Carlton Club, where the members at the window seemed to be laughing in a derisive and contemptuous manner, joking with one another as to their appearance and condition, which had a very exciting effect on the crowd—I saw something thrown at the windows, but I cannot say what—I want with the crowd to Hyde Park, and after they left the Carlton I harried to the front and passed by the side of Burns, and saw him take stones from the hands of several lads about 17 or 18—he said "Now lads, stop that stone-throwing, we shall be held responsible for it and not you," and just as we reached Hyde Park he noticed a pickpocket trying to carry on his operations, and he caught hold of him and almost strangled him, and Williams came to the front several times and interfered—I heard Burns make a speech at the Achilles statue very much to the same effect as at Trafalgar Square, that they would put the proposals before the Local Government Board next day—he never used the expression "We have shown them to-day what we can do with stones," nor did I hear him say anything about powder and shot.

By Champion. I am a member of the Social Federation, Clerkenwell branch—I was present on the previous Sunday evening—only one of the defendants was there, and that was you—I know the others very well by sight, and should have known if they were in the room—I was at the meeting on the previous Wednesday, 3rd February—you were in the chair, and asked those who wanted to see the black book steps taken, to come to the meeting on Sunday—you spoke before the ordinary lecture—you said that it was possible that the people bringing up the meeting would bring force to bear, and if so you intended to take the meeting to the other side of the Square, and have a meeting of your own—I got up and proposed that we should go there armed, so as to beat the free traders with their own weapons, but you deprecated force, as it could only do harm to the unemployed and to the cause—you spoke in Hyde Park about the soldiers and the police, but you seemed to say that force might have to be employed—you deprecated using force against the forces of the Crown, and said that argument and persuasion would teach the soldiers and the police—you said you were ashamed of those who had attacked carriages and passengers, and described them as cowards—I am a Socialist—I think people should have equal social rights; that means the reverse of the division of the property of the country, it is holding all property collectively—the property of the Post Office is held in that manner.

By the COURT. The Post Office and the telegraph wires and the Arsenal are held in that way, and the national docks and the parks.

By Champion. I understand it to mean a change in the manner of holding the property of the country—I have heard you describe that as an economical revolution—you have taken a great deal of trouble to bring the question of the unemployed before the Local Board.

By Hyndman. I have heard you deliver many addresses of an economic nature, with the object of bringing about a better state of things—I have taken considerable trouble to educate myself, and that is hard work.

Cross-examined. I am a member of the Social Democratic Federation—I think Mr. Champion is the Secretary, and Burns and Hyndman two of the Committee, I thin k—Williams in on the executive—the

meeting on the Sunday night was at the Phoenix Temperance Hall, the Clerkenwell branch, and Champion was there—I heard nothing said at Hyde Park like, "We have shown them to-day what we can do with stones"; Mr. Burns said, "You have shown you are determined men; you have shown them your poverty and distress and misery by your procession through the streets"—I took no note, but those are the exact words; I could swear to them, only I don't swear, and I cannot tell you how their walking showed their determination—I am not here to interpret what Mr. Burns said, but I should interpret it very different to what you do, because I saw him preventing people from smashing windows and picking pockets.

Re-examined by MR. THOMPSON. I was at the Holborn meeting; it was a weekly meeting called by the Clerkenwell branch, and I heard Champion invite the general meeting to come down to Hatton Wall.

By Champion. The meeting at the Holborn Town Hall was a large one, and the meeting of Sunday was the same, only that you had invited the general public to come and assist you—I was very much afraid at first that it was a bloodthirsty conspiring association, and I argued with you that it had been stated that you desired to use physical force, but I found it to be otherwise and joined you—there are several branches in London, and they hold meetings when they please.

By a JUROR. I should not have been there that afternoon if I had had any work to do—I thought I might as well go there as anywhere else.

Friday and Saturday, April 9th and 10th.

WILLIAM BOWMAN (by Champion). I am now working at my trade as a carpenter—I am a member of the Social Democratic Federation, Clerkenwell branch—I have been acting for some time as the secretary of that branch; I am fully aware of the steps that have been taken in calling attention to the distress of the unemployed in that particular district—I was present at the meeting at the Holborn Town Hall on 3rd February, where I heard the proposals for relief works, shortening the hours of labour, and other proposals, all the defendants were there—you told the workingmen present, and all who were interested on behalf of the unemployed, to come to 39, Hatton Wall on the following Monday, so that they might learn the progress made in the agitation, and the future arrangements; the meeting was called by handbills in the usual way—the Metropolitan Members of Parliament had been invited to attend, and I think were present—you read letters from some, giving their reasons for not coming—I was present at 39, Hatton Wall on 7th February; it was the custom of the branch to hold meetings every Sunday at that place, quite independent of the rest of the Federation—you are a member of the Clerlenwell branch—you spoke at the meeting of the branch, for about five minutes, with regard to the meeting on the following day—you said it had been arranged by the Federation, not to take measures for the upsetting of the other meeting, the storming of the platform or anything of the sort, which had been suggested by some individual, but leave would be asked to move an amendment to their resolutions, and if that was refused, the Federation would hold a meeting at the other side of the square, to avoid a conflict; and you asked the members to come and listen to what you had to say—some man present advised us to go armed with a good heavy stick, as the conveners of the other meeting would do so—you thought that was not advisable, because it would probably lead to violence and disorder,

which would discredit the whole thing; none of the other defendants were present at this meeting—this agitation began at oar branch on 17th January, that was the first conception of it, to collect statistics as to the number of the unemployed; I think the Walworth branch commenced a week or two after, and then the Marylebone branch—a great amount of distress existed, and still exists in my trade, more members are out of work than there have been for years past, and having a weekly allowance from the society—Socialism does not mean the division of property among the people, it means the holding of property in a collective sense, a holding by the nation on behalf of the people, and administered by the executive of the nation, that is what it means as far as I know—the division of property in the shop windows is opposed to the interests of the Socialist agitation—you and all the defendants have always advocated keeping from conflict with the armed forces of the country as long as possible—I live in a model lodging house for artizans—you proposed that such dwellings should be constructed by the local authorities.

By Hyndman. I have been connected with the Social Democratic Federation since February, 1885—I have known you connected with that body the whole of that time—I believe the other defendants were members of the body at that time—I joined the Federation simply on the ground of the principles it taught—I have been a Socialist eleven years—I have heard you speak many times—during that time we were engaged in advocating a better arrangement of society, a better form of administration for public affairs—I remember your going with a deputation to Whitehall—Burns and Williams have been pursuing the same course.

Cross-examined. We hold that all property is held in trust for the people, for the Executive to administer it for them; that there should be no private property at all, either in machinery, land, or anything else.

By MR. THOMPSON. I don't mean to say that a man could not have a pair of spectacles and a watch as his own private property, but I mean anything that pertains to the public good in the way of production, all things that minister to the wants of the community should be held as public property, all means of production on a large scale.

HON. HOWARD SPENSELEY , M.P. (By Champion). I am the Liberal M.P. for Central Finsbury—at the end of January I received a communication from the Committee of the Unemployed of the Clerkenwell branch of the Social Democratic Federation, requesting me to attend at Hatton Wall, and I did so—I believe you were in the chair; that was the first time I had seen you—there were about 40 or 50 people there—you referred to the general want of work and the distress, and the necessity of bringing the matter before the House of Commons—Colonel Duncan, who was there, addressed the meeting, I afterwards followed, and we promised to do our best to bring the matter to the attention of the Legislature—the whole thing did not occupy probably five or six minutes, and then I left with Colonel Duncan—my impression was that you were very earnest in the matter, and that you desired as far as you could to brine the question prominently before the public; you said very little, and there were no other speeches—you said you hoped it would not be made a party question, and Colonel Duncan and I referred to it in similar terms—we convened a meeting of the various Metropolitan Members, and the matters were discussed at considerable length, and various meetings have been held since, but the demonstration in Trafalgar Square caused

dissatisfaction, and so nothing was absolutely done—the matter was certainly brought before us more directly by yourself, and the effort was made—a very large amount of distress did exist, and exists at present to some extent in my particular district—I can hardly say that we took no steps to relieve until the matter was brought forward by your Association, because the Clerkenwell Vestry investigated the matter and did all they could to relieve it—subscriptions were got up and various steps were taken to relieve it before you brought the matter before us—there was an exceedingly large amount of distress among the class above the ordinary pauper class—I told you that it was an exceedingly difficult thing for a private Member to do anything in the matter unless something more was done—you endeavoured to induce me, together with the other Metropolitan Members, to stop all legislation until the matter was investigated—I told you that would be altogether out of the question and I would have nothing to do with such a procedure.

Cross-examined. I was in Trafalgar Square for two or three minutes—I saw a large crowd, but being lame I left; I saw nothing—I saw Champion a few days after the meeting—in my judgment that meeting did not help the cause of the unemployed, I think it had a contrary effect, to defeat the influence we were endeavouring to bring to bear.

BENNETT BURLEIGH (By MR. THOMPSON). I am war correspondent of The Daily Telegraph, and also do general literary work for that journal—it was my duty on the 8th of February to attend the meeting in Trafalgar Square—I saw all the defendants there, I think I arrived between two and three in the afternoon—I saw Mr. Burns there when I arrived, I got between four and five paces from him and subsequently went below and mingled with the crowd—I believe that was between two and three it might have been later—it was the usual out-door harangue to the unemployed—he spoke a great many times, he seemed to me chairman of the meeting—I was not struck by anything extraordinary or out of the way by what I heard—I heard him say nothing which I thought calculated to excite the crowd, it seemed to me a very good-natured crowd, several hundreds gathered about him and beneath him who were quiet and orderly—a portion round the fountains were somewhat disorderly between half and three-quarters of an hour before the meeting broke up—I heard it proposed to move westward—I think he said "Some one has suggested that we should march to the West End and show the people our poverty or distress"—he put it as a resolution in the usual way, and it was carried by a show of hands—I never heard him say "We must have bread or they must have lead," I hardly think it would have escaped my notice—I kept within a reasonable distance of the speaker for I did not care to go near the Nelson Column because I was wearing a tall hat and I wished to keep it—I daresay Burns spoke five or ten times.

By Hyndman. I believe I heard you speak, I should say for about ten minutes or a quarter of an hour, it could not have been a long time—there were a great many speakers, I should call you a rapid speaker—I think it would be rather difficult to convey your speech in four or five sentences I should say you spoke considerably over half a column—there was a good deal of horse play and pushing about on the fringe of the crowd, not immediately round the Socialist speakers but among the Fair traders in the way of knocking men's hats off, throwing pieces of plant about,

and an attempt to push people into the fountains, and I think they succeeded in some instances—I saw you the next day at the Local Government Board Office waiting for an interview with Mr. Chamberlain—Champion spoke at the meeting probably three-quarters of a column—Williams spoke at a greater length than yourself, I think you spoke more briefly than any of the others.

Cross-examined. I did not hear Burns say "We must get bread or they must get lead," I think I could undertake to say that he did not—Barns was standing on the narrow parapet with a stick and a flag or handkerchief attached—there was another man alongside of him, and I think it was that person that said it and not Burns—anyone taking a shorthand note would probably fancy the words were used by Burns when probably they were used by that man alongside of him, but I did not hear the words—I was not there for the purpose of reporting, only descriptive writing—I gave a sketchy account of what occurred—something was said about sacking the shops at the West End, but I cannot charge my memory whether Burns said it or somebody else—I heard Hyndman advise the people not to ask for charity because it was degrading—I think Williams or some one else said that the fear of God had not much effect upon the House of Commons, and I think he said they must strike the fear of man into the hearts of their oppressors, or something like that—I think Williams said something to the effect that they most have a revolution if they did not get work—I think Burns was striving by good humour to keep order, and he succeeded admirably in doing so.

By Hyndman. The crowd was very quiet and orderly—the rough element on the fringe of the crowd might have heard a word occasionally—I saw the crowd leave the Square, there was a great rush made after you—I heard a good many angry ejaculations from the crowd from time to time.

By the COURT. The speeches were of the ordinary nature of outdoor talk addressed to working men, many of whom were unemployed, and evidently from their appearances in great distress—the burden of the speeches were "Educate yourselves and make your political power felt"—I was deeply struck with the evident poverty of the people there, they looked worn and hungry—there were a great many agricultural labourers among them; for the most part they were listening quietly, not indulging in any horseplay—those who were indulging in horseplay seemed to be people from the East End, young men who had evidently come there for a lark, and were having it.

By Hyndman. I did not anticipate any riot as a natural consequence of the speeches—I did not follow you to the West End; I would have done so if I thought there had been any disturbance—I went later on.

MR. WHILE (Re-examined by MR. THOMPSON). From the speeches I heard on the 8th February in the Square I did not anticipate that there would be any riot afterwards, or any danger to life or property.

DANIEL MCNULTY . (By MR. THOMPSON.) I live in Trinity Square, south-east of London, and am a wine cooper—I am not a Socialist—on 8th February I attended this meeting in Trafalgar Square; I had nothing to do, so I thought I would go and hear what went on—I was out of employ at the time—I arrived there, I should think, between half-past 2 and a quarter to 3—Mr. Burns was standing on the parapet on the north

side of the Square when I got there; I got about 30 paces from him—I recollect him denouncing the Government for not opening up relief works and he also denounced the Fair Traders as shams—I didn't hear him say anything about bread and lead, I heard words similar to that used—the speaker that used them was referring to what impressed his memory as words used in the Irish agitation, and how they got what they wanted—I don't know exactly what he said, but I think it was, "If you ask for bread you will get lead"—I know the man who did use those words, it was a gentlemen named Sparling—I don't remember hearing the crowd repeat the words, neither of the prisoners used them—I have come here perfectly unsolicited—I read the account in the papers, and I thought some of the witnesses said things that were not true, and I thought it was not fair to the prisoners; that was mostly why I offered my services—I was in the park.

By Champion. I heard you speak in the park—I heard some one in the crowd sing out "The soldiers are coming," and some one said "Let them come, we will fight them," or something of that—you told them it was useless for them to attempt to fight soldiers and police, that they were not capable of doing so; you advised them to go quietly—if you had thought the soldiers were coming I believe you would have cleared away; I know several jumped off the statue and got away because they thought the soldiers were coming, I thought so myself—I heard one man say "Hungry men don't care what happens, we are ready for everything"—you said a few more words advising them to go home quietly.

Cross-examined. The speaker who spoke about bread and lead was referring to Ireland, that is how he used the words—I heard Burns speak in Hyde Park, he advised them to go away quietly—he said no good could come by smashing windows and assaulting ladies in their carriages, and he said it would be foolish to fight against soldiers, it would be knocking their heads against stone walls—there were other things said, but I cannot recall them—something was said about rope; Burns might have said it, it might have been somebody else—he spoke so often, and there were other speakers, one is apt to get things mixed up—Burns referred to the capitalists and railway directors and employers, and he spoke of workmen not getting their rights—I heard something said about the French Revolution, and about sacking the bakers' shops or the shops at the West End—I think Burns made reference to that—he said "The next time we meet here it will not be to talk, or move resolutions, but to sack the bakers' shops at the West End"—I don't remember hearing him say the next time they met would be to take the wealth and bread they daily rob us of—he put some resolution to the meeting and then he said "You have pledged yourself to the resolution, and when we call upon you will you respond as men?"—I don't recollect anything about powder and shot—he said "Probably all the speakers here to-day will be in prison to-morrow"—some one cried out "No, no," and he said "I hope not"—he didn't say "I hope so," he said "I hope not"—I didn't hear anything about a rising, he said it would be like knocking their heads against stone walls to meet soldiers—I heard him say "We are not strong enough to cope with armed forces"—I heard Champion say something to the effect that some of them might have friends in the Army and in the Guards, and that the Guards would be the first brought down to clear the park.

By MR. THOMPSON. When Burns was referring to the bakers' shops, it was about the same time that he spoke of the French Revolution, he referred to the starving people of Paris at the time of the Revolution, that the people asked for work, and got laughed at, and soon after the heads of those that laughed decorated the lamp posts—it was after he put the resolution that he said "Will you respond like men?"—I could not catch the words of the resolution, I am rather hard of hearing; something was said about eight hours, and artisans' dwellings, and the unemployed—I heard Burns at the Achilles statue counsel the people to keep quiet and go away quietly, and Williams also, and heard him denounce the roughs who had broken the carriages.

By Champion. What Mr. Sparkling said was, that if the people asked the ruling classes for bread they would give them lead—I am not an Irishman, but I am interested in Ireland—people have been given lead in Ireland in resisting evictions—the allusion was something similar to that—what you said was mostly denouncing those who smashed the windows, and advising the people to go home quietly.

HENRY SPARLING (By MR. THOMPSON). I am secretary to the Socialist League, and am manager of their organ "The Commonweal" that is quite a different organisation from the Social Democratic Federation—I attended the meeting on 8th February, and spoke there—I was standing beside Burns; it was some time between 2 and 3 o'clock, but I could not say exactly—I was within two yards of Burns at the very furthest end, till the end of the meeting; when I spoke I was beside him, touching him, almost arm-in-arm with him—the general impression of his speech was that he was trying to impress upon the people the absolute necessity of bringing their case before the Government, in such a way as to get relief works started, and that kind of thing—after Burns there were one or two other brief speeches, and then I spoke—I told the crowd that it was absolutely no use passing resolutions and having demonstrations, unless they really understood what they needed—I said the Irish people did not get what they wanted until they were strong enough to take it if necessary, and then they did take it—I used the old saying, that when you ask for bread you soon get lead—that was a popular adaption of the same saying current in Ireland—I heard Burns speech attentively—he did not use the phrase "bread and lead "in any of his speeches, save in one of them when he said both bread and clothes were scarce and expensive, because of the capitalists' monopoly; I am certain he did not use the word "lead "in one of his speeches, he used the word "bread "many times—"bread and lead "were shouted back by a great many of the crowd in numberless forms; it was taken up as a popular cry, it seemed to take their ear.

Cross-examined. I spoke before Mr. Burrows—Burns stood on the parapet, and as each speaker climbed up beside him he waved a flag, and called out the name, sometimes adding a few words—I said "If they were strong enough, and they could not get bread, to give lead, and they would get bread without it," what I meant was, if they were organised to take the bread if necessary, that they need not take it, it would be given, and that was caught up by the crowd, it seemed to strike them as rather a new idea—I was not reprehended by Burns or anybody for that language, but I don't think they exactly cared for the expression.

Re-examined. The effect of the words was that if they were strong

enough to take bread they would not have to exert their power and take it, it would be given them, and I used the illustration that the Irish people got what they wanted when they were strong enough to take it, without taking it.

By Champion. I was quite close to all the defendants while the speaking was going on in Trafalgar Square, and I certainly could not have missed any striking phrase.

ALFRED HICKS (By Hyndman). I am a pianoforte-maker when in work—I am not in work now—I am a member of the Social Democratic Federation—you came to my house and said you were proposing to take a census of those out of employ in Marylebone—I went from house to house and did so at your request—a public meeting was called and I invited the local Members of Parliament to be there at 4 o'clock; they did not come—I then applied to the Board of Guardians of St. Pancras, and also to the Metropolitan Board of Works—you attended the meeting of the unemployed in Camden Road two days after the meeting at the Holborn Town Hall—I have been a member of this body about 12 months, but I have been a Socialist longer—during that time you and your co-defendants have been endeavouring to carry on an agitation on behalf of those out of work—I was not at the meeting in Trafalgar Square.

CHARLES MARSON (By MR. THOMPSON). I live in East Terrace, Queens Road, Battersea—I am a modeller—on 8th February I went to Trafalgar Square about a quarter to 4 o'clock, that was near the end of the speaking—I heard a little of Burns's speech, not much—I heard a suggestion about marching to the West End, but I could not tell whether it came from him—I went with the crowd to the West End—I saw Champion in the crowd, I was close by him—I saw him assaulted by three individuals between boys and men, who bonneted him—he was walking along quietly by himself.

By Champion. I was in Hyde Park at the conclusion of the speaking; the crowd dispersed—I was there almost the last—two or three policemen then came up and said "Move on," and I did.

By Hyndman. When opposite the Carlton I saw several jeers from the gentlemen inside, and I saw some pieces of paper at the windows, also a can in its descent—where it came from I don't know—I saw no missiles thrown from the club—the jeers rather produced an impression upon me.

JAMES CONDEN (By Champion). I am a labourer in the building line—I live at 120, Tabernacle Street, E.C.—I am at present in work—I was present at the meeting at the Holborn Town Hall—I am not a Socialist—I went to Hatton Wall on the Sunday evening—there were about 50 or 60 in the room—you were there—I did not see the other three defendants there—you advised us not to have any bother with fair-traders, but Burns or Williams would move an amendment or have a meeting of their own, and possibly they might get Mr. Michael Davitt to address us—at the Sunday meeting some man advised them to take a piece of wood about two feet long in their hand, as the other party would be well prepared—you said if that was done it would cause a breach of the peace and bring them in collision with the police, and you did not want that—I was out of work at that time, but I would not break stones for the money that was given—I am married and have a family; I could not keep them or myself on 10d. a day—I applied to the Mansion

House Committee and they gave me 5s., and told me to go to the stone-yard—amongst my class of labourers there is a great deal of distress and discontent.

By Hyndman. I did not anticipate from anything I heard you say that you counselled riot, or incited to riot.

BENJAMIN ROSE (By MR. THOMPSON). I live in Denmark Park and am a joiner—I am not a member of the Federation—I attended the meeting in Trafalgar Square on 8th February—I arrived there about two—I heard Burns speak from the base of the monument and afterwards from the balustrade—I remained there till I went with the crowd to the West End—I heard all the speeches—I heard expressions from the crowd in answer to expressions by the speakers—I heard some person say "Hang them," in respect to the aristocracy, some "d—n them," and some "set fire to them"—I did not hear anything about "bread and lead" from any of the defendants—I did from Mr. Sparling.

The Jury found all the defendants

NOT GUILTY , and stated, "We are of opinion that the language of Champion and Burns was highly inflammatory and greatly to be condemned, but upon the whole of the facts before us we acquit them of any malicious intent. We wish to add that considering the circumstances and the public excitement of the moment, and after the reports made in the press of the speeches on the occasion of February 8th, the prosecution by the Grown was rightly instituted."


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