Offence: Killing > murder
Verdict: Not Guilty > directed; Not Guilty > directed; Not Guilty > unknown; Guilty > no_subcategory
Punishment: Death > no_subcategory
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412. WILLIAM DESMOND (38), TIMOTHY DESMOND (46), NICHOLAS ENGLISH (46), JOHN O'KEEFE (25), MICHAEL BARRETT (27), alias Jackson , and ANNE JUSTICE (22) , were indicted for the wilful murder of Anne Hodgkinson; O'KEEFE and JUSTICE were also charged on the Coroner's Inquisition with the like offence.
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL, THE SOLICITOR GENERAL, MR. GIFFARD , Q.C., MR. POLAND and MR. ARCHIBALD conducted the Prosecution; MR. WARNER SLEIGH appeared for Wm. Desmond, MR. STRAIGHT for Timothy Desmond, MR. KEOGH for English, MR. M. WILLIAMS for O'Keefe and Justice, and MR. BAKER GREENE for Barrett.
JOHN BUTLER . I am a surveyor—I have made a model of the House of Detention at Clerkenwell and the surrounding neighbourhood—(produced)—it is accurate, and shows the part of the wall blown down—the width of Corporation Lane is 24 feet from the houses to the prison wall—I saw the houses that were blown down, or so much shattered as to be dangerous; they were taken down soon after the occurrence—the roof of the house most damaged was partly blown off—the floors were very much injured indeed—that was No. 3a—ten other houses were more or less injured—No. 2 was very badly shattered—so much so as to be unsafe—of Nos. 4, 5, 6, and 7, the windows and doors were blown in—and the houses were rendered otherwise dangerous—the windows of Nos. 1, 3, 1a and 2a were blown in—and the houses were very seriously damaged—the windows of other houses were also blown in, and the sides and roofs damaged.
GEORGE RICHARDSON .—On the afternoon of the 13th December, after the explosion, I assisted in taking the bodies out of the ruins—I took out the body of a female from the ruins of No. 3a—I found it on the 1st floor at ten minutes or a quarter to four—that was about five minutes after the explosion—she was dead when I found her—I removed the body for a time into the prison yard, I afterwards took it to Bartholomew's Hospital—I did not find the body of any other female in the house—I did not know the person myself.
EDITH BRIGHT .—I am the wife of Wm. Bright, and the sister of Sarah Ann Hodgkinson, who lived at 3a Corporation Lane—in consequence of what I heard on the day of the explosion, I went to St. Bartholomew's Hospital, and found her dead body there.
EDWARD M'LEAN , M.R.C.S.—I am one of the house-surgeons of St. Bartholomew's Hospital—on the 13th December the body of Sarah Ann Hodgkinson was brought in—I examined it—it had a cut on the neck, extending in front of the right ear to the cheek—the scalp was cut with glass—the right sub-clavian vein was cut, and she had a clot of blood in her windpipe—she died partly from hoemorrhage and partly from suffocation.
PATRICK MULLANY (in custody).—I am a military tailor—before my arrest I was living at 20, Sherwood Street, Golden Square—I carried on business as a tailor there, and did not work out—I lived on the first floor—the house consisted of four rooms—my shop was the front room—I had the room behind as well—from the staircase you could go into the back room, without going into the shop—there are two doors, one leading into
the front room and the other into the back room—if you want to go into the back room it is not necessary to go into the shop—I understand that I am in custody on a charge of treason-felony—I have been about six years in London, and during that time I have been a tailor—I am a member of a combination called the Fenian Brotherhood—I was sworn in about 15 or 16 months ago, in the Teetotal Hall, Pollen Street, Maddox Street, Hanover Square—the objects of the Fenian Brotherhood are to establish a republie in Ireland, and to overthrow English rule there—at the time I was sworn in, the prisoner English was there—he introduced me to a man named James Kelly—I was sworn in as a centre—the centre is supposed to have nine B's under him, and each B has nine men.
COURT. Q. Is B a brother? A. That is what they term it—at the time I was sworn in, Kelly and Daniel O'Keefe were there—not the prisoner—Maurice O'Connor, Kennedy, John Donovan—
MR. ATTORNEY GENERAL . Q. Who else do you recollect? A. I think Jeremiah Murphy was there—there might be a dozen there—I had been introduced the night before that by English to James Kelly—when English introduced me, he said I was a very decent fellow, and fit to be a centre—on the second occasion, when I was sworn in, English was there—we were all sworn together—Kelly said the oath, and we repeated it after him—William Desmond was not present—the conversation was principally how they conveyed men to Ireland, it was the time of the rising in Ireland and it was about the best means of raising money to seud men into the volunteers, and to get arms—I had known English since about 1865, he is a tailor—William Desmond I had known about the same time, he is a shoemaker or bootmaker—I also knew Timothy Desmond and O'Keefe—I first met the latter in the Thirteen Cantons, at the corner of Seymour Street and Pulteney Street—Burke I had known since about April, 1867, after the rising—I was a centre before that—I had no place to meet Burke, he used to call at my place—he was a Fenian, an American officer, as I understood—he was first introduced to me by the name of Winslow; but afterwards I was told not to call him Winslow but Brown, and after that I knew him by the name of Burke—I afterwards heard of Burke being arrested, and after that I saw Barrett at my house—that might be a fortnight or more before the explosion—he and a man called Captain Murphy came to my house, one morning about ten o'clock—I knew Captain Murphy before—he was a supposed captain in the American army, and took a great part in the Fenian movement—as I was dressing to go out for orders, Murphy came and shook hands with me, and he introduced Barrett by the name of Jackson—he told me he had eight revolvers in the bag, and he was come to do something for poor Burke—he opened the bag; I saw some powder and caps, but I do not think there were so many as eight revolvers—Murphy went with me to a house where I do business in Hanover Street—I do not wish to mention the name—we then went to Cavanagh's public-house, leading off Hanover Street—I was in the habit of going there; I used to take lunch there—English joined me there—I do not know whether we sent for him—I left them speaking together—I think Barrett was there, but I could not say; neither could I say whether I saw him again that day or not—I saw him again coming down Regent Street, I think the same day—I cannot say how soon I saw him again—I know Felix Fallon—I have seen him at Rice's public-house in
Silver Street, and at my house with Barrett—I did not know where he lived until the time of the explosion—he lived at No. 8, Pulteney Court, near Silver Street—that is no great distance from my house—Barrett lodged with him—Barrett told me they lodged together, and a man named Ryan told me so—when I met him in Rice's, the conversation was all about Burke, and he asked me whether I could give him my interest for a barrel of powder—Felix Fallon asked me at Rice's for my address, to leave a barrel of powder—before anything was said about powder, our conversation was about Burke, and the best way of getting him out—I did not hear anything talked of for a time as to how they were going to get him out; nothing was settled on—Murphy went by the name of Hastings—after I first met Murphy with Barrett, he spent much of his time in my place—he had dinner there occasionally, and went away after dark—Barrett dined there two or three times—Murphy was there at the time—I knew a woman named Berry, or Barry—I first saw her about a day or so after he came to my place—she called to see him—she is a sister of Burke's—Murphy showed me a letter after Berry had left—that letter was referred to afterwards, at a meeting in William Desmond's house—I do not know whether it was that letter—he had several letters, but I only know of that one—after that, he asked me if I would bring him in an ounce of green copperas—I got the green copperas before I saw the letter—I did not read the letter; Murphy read it to me—after that the letter was shown to three or four at William Desmond's—he put some hot water in a teacup, and put the copperas in it, and rubbed it on a board, and the writing came out through the letter, brown and burnt like, and I said, "Captain, what is that?"—the writing had been invisible before—there was some plain writing besides this—the invisible writing came out between the lines—after that I heard something read—Barrett knew of it previously at my house; I saw Murphy show it to him after the copperas was applied—it was shown round before any meeting—at the time it was shown at William Desmond's, there were present English, Murphy, and I think Casey; a brother of Casey—there were twelve or fifteen, or more in the room—it was the Wednesday night before the explosion—there were three marks on the letter—one of the marks was the position of a house at Clerkenwell prison, and the wall is marked—the position of the house is drawn, just marked—another mark was that of the sewer that runs from this public-house—I saw Murphy the morning of the explosion, and I should have seen him that night, only I was arrested.
(MR. WILLIAMS objected to any evidence relating to a document not before the Court. THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL stated that he could prove that Murphy had gone to France.)
JAMES THOMPSON . I am an inspector of the Detective force—after the explosion took place, I had orders to look out for Murphy—I have done so, but I have not been able to find him in England—I have made inquiries respecting him, and I ascertained that he went to Paris, that from thence he went to Havre, and then to America.
PATRICK MULLANY (continued). As nearly as I can recollect what was in the letter was this—"Dear Friend, you know my position here; you know how I am situated here; there is a house here called 'The Noted Stout House'"—that is the name of the public-house—"at that house there is a sewer and a weak part of the wall; if you get a barrel of powder and place it there, you will be able to blow the wall to hell. Get the men to buy
it in small quantities, and it must be done at the hour of 3.30 or 4 o'clock; if you do not do that you ought to be shot"—that is all I recollect—there was more of it, but I only recollect that portion of it—there were three marks in the letter—you can see "The Noted Stout House" from the yard where the prisoners are exercised—the other marks are the sewer and the weak part of the wall—it might be that day or the next after I had seen the ink come out, that Murphy showed it to Barrett—after it had been shown to Barrett I met some others at a place called O'Donnell's, or M'Donnell's—it was at a small street off Queen Street, in Holborn—it was at a private room in the top of a house—Barrett went with me, William Desmond was there, a man named Lynch, Felix Fallon, Hayes, and Murphy—Murphy said that if he could not get money, he could not carry out the rescue—the money was to buy powder—some of the men present volunteered to give or get 1l., some 10s., and some 12s.—I cannot tell how long this was before the explosion, but I think it was the same week—arrangements were made that evening to meet in the American Stores, Oxford Street, the next evening—I went there the next evening—the prisoners, William Desmond, English, and Barrett were there—there were several others present—Murphy was there, and Fallon, Ryan, and M'Carthy—the house was reckoned half-way between the Holborn and the West-end men—English said that he could get a place in Castle Market—we went there—it was a public-house—the only thing I heard was that one of the men said he had got 25 lbs. of powder—that was Ryan—he told me he got it at some place off the Dials—I did not know of anyone else having powder at that meeting—I did not hear of any—that night or the next day I heard of more powder being had—I heard it from Fallon and Barrett when they were together at, I think, Rice's public-house—Felix Fallon asked me for my address to leave a barrel of powder at—I asked him what he wanted with a barrel of gunpowder: I knew at the same time—and he said he and his partner were going to hawk it in the country—I think this was said in the private bar—Miss Rice was behind the bar—I told him I did not understand giving my address for it—he then said that he would send it to his lodgings—he told me it was to be delivered, I forget the day—I gave half a sovereign to Felix Fallon, but I received it back again from Captain Murphy, it was not expected from me—I was out of work then, owing to the tailor's strike—I was working on my board that day, and I saw M'Carthy with a half or quarter barrel under his arm—that was the same day that the powder was to be delivered at his lodgings—he was not the same man who had been present at one of the meetings—it was in Sherrard Street—I knew that M'Carthy—I think he is a shoemaker—he had been present at some of our meetings—I do not know what the powder cost—Murphy used to get letters addressed to my house—the postman brought them—I did not see anything done with them—I saw newspapers—Captain Murphy rubbed the stuff over the papers, and the writing on them came out—I think no one else was there—I saw Murphy write a letter in secret writing—on 11th December I was at a meeting at William Desmond's—I went there about 9.30 or 10 o'clock—there were present English, Barrett, William Desmond, Captain Murphy, Ryan, Lynch, Hayes, Quin, the M'Carthy who had the barrel of powder, Fallon, and, I should think, about a dozen and a half altogether—when I went in I saw a man looking very pale in the face, with his coat open—I went over to see what was the matter with him—he was not shot, but it had grazed his skin—a revolver which English had in his hand went off by accident—Ryan was the man
who was wounded—there were six or seven pistols in the room—it was there I learnt who was the man who had the barrel, and the man who had got something to carry the fuse—Captain Murphy said that they had the powder all right, and then asked what they were to do for a truck to wheel the powder on—someone in the room, I think it was I, said that a man named Maddox, living in Marshall Street, kept a truck—Felix then went out, and he was gone about the time that he would be gone there and come back again—when he came in he said, "All right"—I also saw Captain Murphy load a cavalry pistol there, and give it to a man who was there—Captain Murphy said that we were to meet at 12 o'clock the next day at Desmond's house, to go from there to the House of Detention, for the purpose of rescuing Burke—we were to go in twos and threes—I did not go—a tundish or funnel was spoken about: that is to carry the fuse—Felix said that he had got it—it was not said what the tundish was for, or what was to be done at the House of Detention, but they all understood it—they were to be at the House of Detention at 3.30—Burke knew all about it—nothing was said as to how Burke was to know anything about it, that I am aware of—on Thursday, 12th December, I was at home—I am not aware that I saw either of the prisoners on the Thursday, but on the evening of that day I saw Barrett at Cavanagh's public-house, Pollen Street—Felix, English, and Patten were there, I think there were some others: I do not know their names—it was about eleven o'clock: it was late when I went out—Barrett came part of the way home with me—Felix was with us—I asked Barrett how they got on that day with the barrel, and he told me that the Captain failed in lighting the fuse that day, but that he, Barrett, would light it to-morrow, and blow it to hell—Barrett always went by the name of Jackson—Ryan lived at Sherwood Place, across the street—on the following day I went to Ryan's, to know if he had done some work for me—I saw Captain Murphy and English there—Ryan was there too—I did not see Murphy after that day—I did not see one of the prisoners from that time until after the explosion—in the evening I heard of the explosion—it was about 5 or 5.30—I was in my shop, and went out to see if I could see anything about it in the newspaper—I saw Patten come into my front room, where I work—his ear was bleeding—a conversation took place between us respecting it—he went into, the back room, through a door which communicated—I did not see him again that night—I did not see Barrett at my house that evening—I saw him later in the evening at the Welsh Stores, at the corner of Glasshouse Street—I noticed that his whiskers were off, and he had a short coat on—up to that time his whiskers were something like mine; the whiskers and beard joined—I cannot say whether he had a moustache or not; I think he had a slight one—Barrett wore a blue coat previous to that night—the jacket that he has on now belongs to Patten—I began to chaff him respesting his whiskers being off, and he said, "Don't speak so loud; it was I who fired the barrel"—I asked him who was with him, he said, "Murphy"—he said that he got his whiskers taken off because he feared that he might be noticed: that he might be identified—I did not see Barrett after that until I saw him at the Bow Street Court—I was taken up on the Thursday after the explosion—I did not see Murphy, Fallon, or Patten after the Friday night—on the Friday night Mrs. Koeppl, a workwoman, came to the public-house—Barrett was there then—I was arrested on a charge of treason-felony, but some time afterwards I was charged with having assisted in this affair, and I then gave evidence before the Magistrate—I
said at the police-court that I knew more; I then referred to the letter of Barrett, which I did not mention there.
THOMAS BUGGINS . I am a foreman at Messrs. Thwaites & Reid, 4, Lower Rosoman Street, Clerkenwell—on Saturday, the day after the explosion, I went on to the roof of the workshop to see what injury had been done—I found on the roof half the stave of a barrel—when I found it it smelt strongly of paraffin—I gave it to Inspector Potter.
THOMAS AMBROSE POTTER (Police Inspector G). I received part of the stave of the barrel (produced)—I found three small pieces of the barrel on the same morning (produced)—a stave was given to me after that by Slocombe.
RICHARD SLOCOMBE (Police Constable 186). On the morning after the explosion I found a stave in the exercising yard of the prison—it was amongst the ruins and rubbish of the wall that had been blown down—I sent it to Inspector Potter.
Tuesday, April 21, 1868.
PATRICK MULLANY , cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH. Q. You have been a Fenian, you say? A. Yes; since some time before the rising—when I was made a Fenian I was not made at the same time a centre—I always passed as a Fenian since I came to London—before I was made a centre, the prisoner William Desmond was not a visitor at my house regularly; not often—in London I was not the entertainer; I did not receive the centres that came from the country to transact business—I entertained some of them, not all—I knew none of them, except Barrett—Captain Murphy never slept at my house—he came, and took his meals with me and my wife sometimes—Barrett, when he came to London, did not stop with me; he dined there sometimes—I once pawned my watch, but not for the purpose of entertaining these people from the country—I never knew a meeting but once, at my house—I heard of another on a Sunday evening, but I was not there; I went out and left them to do what they liked—there was another meeting at my house, better than twelve months ago—Vaughan was not in the habit of coming to my house—he is not a friend of mine; I never spoke to him, to my knowledge, until I saw him at Bow Street court-house—upon the 1st, or one of the first three days of December, I remember a meeting in Little Queen Street, Holborn—I said positively, yesterday, that William Desmond was at that meeting; I made myself quite certain of it—the first time, I said I was not certain of it, but since that I have made myself quite sure.
COURT. Q. How do you mean, quite certain? A. I have brought things to bear on my memory which remind me that he was there.
MR. SLEIGH. Q. You spoke, yesterday, of a meeting at the American Stores, in Oxford Street; there, you say that William Desmond was present; you gave your evidence on 28th January, and I ask you, when the matter was then fresh in your memory, did you make one mention of William Desmond's name as being present at that meeting? A. I can't say whether I did or not; but I know he was there—there were a great many people there whom I cannot think of—I know William Desmond was there—I was present at Father O'Connor's meeting—I believe I have not given evidence before of that—I did not know Vaughan at that time—I have seen him since, at the police-court, but do not recollect whether he was present at the meeting; I know nothing at all about him—I was on the platform, and
was very active in the room, going round with plates—I do not think I saw William Desmond there—I cannot say whether he was there or not; I do not recollect seeing him—I had no conversation with these men—I merely lifted the plate before a few in the front row; another man went down the room—I do not remember the Saturday night before Father O'Connor's meeting—I do not know, I might have seen Vaughan there, but I did not know him—I had often been in conversation with men without knowing who they were—I did not know Vaughan was a Fenian till I saw him at the police-court—on 11th December there was a meeting at William Desmond's house—a man, before I went, had been accidentally shot—he was not shot, a pistol had gone off accidentally—he looked rather ill and queer, and went out to get the fresh air; William Desmond took him out—I cannot say the time they were absent, but the meeting was nearly over—they may have been three-quarters of an hour, or an hour—during the time they were out, I did not see other persons come into Desmond's room.
Q. You have said there were eighteen men; I want to know whether some of these men did not come into this room and join in conversation with you after William Desmond and Ryan had gone away? A. I cannot say that—I heard, at the American Stores, there was going to be a meeting at William Desmond's—it was generally understood; the women in the street knew it—it was generally understood that it was to be done—when I went into the room, I did not say to William Desmond, "I want you to heel my boots"—I said that in the streets a day or two before then; I did not say so on that night—I went to a public-house, but I had no whiskey with him—Desmond and Ryan were in the public-house—I did not see Ryan come back—I and Desmond did not go into this public-house, the other men remaining upstairs in William Desmond's room, Desmond was in the public-house when I went in—I went out again, leaving them in, and went to the men in Desmond's house—the letter that copperas had been used to was not twelve months ago—Murphy had that letter, and there were two or three people round him—that letter was not read out publicly at that meeting—I have not mentioned William Desmond as one of the men who were standing around Murphy; I could not say so—the letter was not read out aloud.
Cross-cxamined by MR. KEOGH. Q. Were you a Fenian when you were working in Ireland? A. No—I merely passed for one when I came to London—when I came to London I mixed with them, and English introduced me to Kellyas a decent fellow—I was then sworn as a centre—very likely that was a tribute to my hospitality, I can't say—I never pawned my watch for the purpose of entertaining them—I was then earning good wages—I used to make 4l. or 5l. a week—you see the position I am now in—I paid 14s. a week for my lodgings—I pawned my watch last summer, when the tailors struck, I could not get men to work for me, and I lost money—I cannot read much—I did not read the copperas letter—I heard it read, and was satisfied it came from Burke—Burke's sister was never out of my house until he came there—I am quite satisfied the letter came from Burke—Murphy read me the letter—I can't read print distinctly—I have not read any of the placards about the Crown offering rewards—I daresay I could have read them—I got drunk on the Friday night, and I was not quite sober until I was arrested on Thursday, the 19th; I was so much upset by the affair—I have a brother in America—he never wrote to me since I was a boy—I expect he is there, he went there; I have not heard
of him for years—I do not recollect meeting the prisoner English in Regent Street in March last—I recollect his doing a job for me—he did it for a Mr. Dolan—he finished a coat for him—will swear it was for Mr. Dolan—I have seen the man wear it—I know a Dr. Morrison—I do not know what English may do for Dr. Morrison—he introduced Dr. Morrison to me—on the Thursday before the explosion I was at Mr. Davis's, Hanover Street, Hanover Square—I saw English and William Desmond on the Thursday, going off to see the explosion, and they asked me, but I would not go—it might be about a quarter to four on the Thursday—he asked me to go to Clerkenwell—I do not recollect that anything was said about the explosion—I do not know whether the word explosion was used, I cannot exactly say it was, I cannot say it was not; I can't say—he asked me to go up to Clerkenwell—it was well known that there was going to be an explosion at Clerkenwell—I knew it from previous meetings, of course—I had not the pleasure of Father O'Connor's acquaintance, till English introduced me, just a day or two before the meeting—I might see Vaughan at that meeting—I did not know him—I first saw him at Bow Street—I do not know what date; I was too much troubled at that time—very likely he knew me, a good many men know me that I don't know—I used to employ many men, and I was a good deal about—I never bought any arms for this Fenian movement—I never took much interest in the movement—I said I passed as a Fenian for five or six years—my sympathies were with them—I dare say I was anxious to promote the movement up to then—I was not all the time plotting my apostacy—I would have made more of it if I had been plotting; I did it because I knew English was splitting—I did not expect any money—I do not know what they may do with me—I know the English Crown always pay people for their services—I turned for the sake of my family—I did not want to be thrown into prison for ever, with a young family, and my state of health—when I entered into the conspiracy I never gave that a thought—I expect nothing—I stand charged with treasonfelony. Q. Do you expect to get punished? A. I do not know—I am the property of the English Crown, they can do what they like with me—I never purchased arms—at least a revolver, once—I never went to Enfield to purchase arms; I do not known where it is—I was never in the volunteer force. Q. How did you know that English was about split? A. He told me in Bow Street court-house—he told me I would not see him another week in the position he was in, I should see him walking into the witness box—I knew the sort of man he was.
COURT. Q. What were the exact words he said to you? A. He said he would see them all at the devil, or something like that, before he would suffer imprisonment for them.
MR. KEOGH. Q. I suppose it was a dead race between you as to which would inform first? A. I do not know about that—I knew it was the best thing I could do—I informed perhaps the next week—I knew for a week that English was going to split—I did it to save myself—it might be the next day for aught I know that I informed—I know I thought of it very much—I think I informed in that week—I made the statement in Bow Street—it might be Monday or Tuesday, I can't say—I never thought of reward—I have turned solely for the sake of my family—it may have been a day or two after English's statement to me that I informed—it weighed heavily on my mind—I knew very well what the man was—I believed he was doing it at that time—I fully believed it—I do not know what time
passed—I sent for the governor of Millbank prison, but he will never come to you when you send for him—you have to give notice a night or a day clear before you see him—I expect nothing from my evidence, only what the Crown chooses to do with me.
Cross-examined by MR. BAKER GREENE. Q. You seem to have made a great many admissions; are you aware that those may be used against you? A. I do not know; I have not received any information that they will not be used against me—when I was in prison I did not hear from any of the warders that any of the prisoners were going to inform—I cannot be certain of that, it may be—we were confined in separate cells—I saw the prisoner English going across the yard—I don't think I received any intimation from any officer or warder that any of the prisoners were about to turn informer—to the best of my opinion I did not—there was so much on my mind at the time, that there are many things I have not thought of.
Q. How did you go about being introduced into this brotherhood? A. A good many of the Fenians were tailors, and I used to meet them at these houses they resorted to, and English introduced me to Kelly—they are very friendly when they meet—I expressed a wish to join—that may be fifteen or sixteen months ago—it may be more—I could not say exactly how many persons were present when I was sworn in—there might be eight, or ten, or twelve, perhaps, there at the time—the head centre repeated the oath, and we repeated it after him—James Kelly was the head centre—several persons took the oath simultaneously—I have heard Vaughan's testimony—the rule is that the oath is administered in the absence of others, but that is not the centre's—they have an oath for the centres—it was the centre's oath that I took—we were all made centres at one time—I was not a Fenian before—I passed for one, but I was not one—a centre is a high grade.
Q. When was it you first saw Barrett? A. Well, I do not know the date—he came with Captain Murphy to my house a fortnight or so before the explosion, I can't say exactly—I don't think I stated this before the Magistrate—he introduced Barrett to me by the name of Jackson—the first conversation we had about getting Burke out of prison was, I think, on the night that Barrett was introduced to me—I do not remember the date when this letter was produced—it may have been three or four days before the explosion; about that—it may have been a fortnight—it may have been seven or eight days before the explosion; but three or four days after I had been introduced to Barrett—the operation took place at my house—copperas is not used in my trade, I don't know anything about it—Murphy asked me to get it, and I did—he got some hot water in a cup, and a cloth, and rubbed it over the letter, and the writing came out—the paper was made wet—it dried up very soon—English, Desmond, and Barrett were present—they did not seem surprised when they saw these words come out—I gave the Crown solicitor information about this letter before I went to Bow Street; at least, I can't say, I am not quite sure—I did not mention about the letter in my examination in Bow Street, because I was not asked—I had told the Crown solicitor before that—I knew about the blowing up of the wall before it was blown up, and I gave a half-sovereign towards buying the powder—I asked Fallou what he wanted with the powder, because I did not think he wanted so much, and there was a person standing by who overheard the conversation—that was the reason I asked Fallon that question, it was to take the harm out of it, as a person was by—there was an arrangement
about meeting at William Desmond's on the Thursday, the day before the explosion, between 12 and 1 o'clock, to go to the House of Detention—that was arranged at the meeting on Wednesday night, the 11th—it was arranged that we should go in twos and threes—there might be sixteen or eighteen persons present at the meeting at Desmond's—they were to go there, and of course to be of some service in carrying out this plot—nothing was said, it was understood—I did not go, because I was too busy, and another thing, I refused—I said it was not proper for any man of family or a married man to go there at all; I said that as well during the week; I always said so—I did not encourage the explosion at all—I knew they reckoned one traitor among them, so I thought that would be the best way to get out of it—I don't think I mentioned at the Police Court about going in twos and threes, or about Felix Fallon asking for my address in order to put the powder there—I think I gave that information to the solicitor of the Treasury previously—I don't think I mentioned to the Magistrate that I asked Fallon what he was going to do with the powder, and that he said he was going to hawk it—I did not think of it—I did not expect to give evidence on that day, and I did not think of these things—I think I had given information of it to the solicitor for the Treasury, but I am not sure—I saw Barrett on the Thursday, the day preceding the explosion: that is a thing I wanted to mention to-day—yesterday I was asked did I see Barrett—Barrett came to my room either on the Wednesday or Thursday of the explosion, I think Thursday, with another man—I thing it was Felix or young Casey, I can't say which, and at night I saw him at Cavanagh's—I did not expect to see him there—it was in the public bar—I was standing at the bar and they were inside the tap-room—there were a great number of people about there—I used to go there nearly every night—the conversation about the attempt which had been made that day to blow up the House of Detention was on our way home—Fallon was with me at that time, and English was in company with him in the public-house, and so was Patten—I was by myself at the bar and they were inside the tap-room till we came out—I asked Barrett what became of the barrel of powder, or how they got on with it—he said they got it back all right—he said the captain had failed in lighting the fuse, but that he would light it on the morrow and blow it to hell—I asked him where the barrel was—he said if I went with him he would show me—I don't know whether anything more passed about the failure of the attempt, there may be—I did not inquire who took part in it then, it was too late—I can't say whether I said anything at the police office about Barrett's having said the captain had failed to light the powder, I am not sure—I don't know whether an arrangement was then made for the members to be present next day at the House of Detention—I was not with them, I was where they met—I saw that some of them met at Ryan's house—I was not required to be present—I had said I would not attend it—I saw Murphy on the morning of the explosion—I never saw him afterwards—no arrangement was made by Murphy for me to attend on that day, or for the other members to be there, that I am aware of—I saw Barrett again on the Friday evening, the day of the explosion, in the Welsh Stores, at the corner of Warwick Street and Glasshouse Street, or it may be outside the door, I don't know—I recollect my apprentice, Henry Morris, being examined before the Magistrate—I was at that time in the dock—I believe Morris then stated that on the night of the explosion Barrett came to my house, accompanied by a man whose ear was bleeding, and that he
had been fighting; the man said so himself—I did not see the man whose ear was bleeding, at the Welsh Stores that night—I saw him at my house—he came into my workshop and asked for a needle and thread—I asked him what was the matter with his ear, and he said he had been fighting and a man bit it—I did not see Barrett—I have heard that he was in the backroom, since; I did not know it—Morris said so at Bow Street—I don't recollect that he said his whiskers were then on—when I saw Barrett the same evening his whiskers were off, and I chaffed him about it at the bar of the public-house—I knew of the explosion then—Mrs. Koeppl, and Barrett, and I were there—Mrs. Koeppl has worked for me about two years—I did not speak in the presence of a number of people, only Mrs. Koeppl—I do not know whether she was in the secrets of the brotherhood—I would not speak about the explosion in her presence, or anybody's, except somebody's who I had confidence in—Barrett said that it was he who lit the barrel, and he took his whiskers off as he should be identified if he kept them on—he said that about 7 o'clock—I was paying my wages, and met Mrs. Koeppl, who asked me for some money, part of her wages—I asked her in with me, and gave her 2s. 6d. or 5s., I do not know which—there was a change in Barrett's dress, he used to dress in a blue coat and an ordinary hat, but he was then wearing the jacket that he has on now—I never saw him after that night; and never saw Fallon or Murphy afterwards—I saw Ryan during the week after the explosion; I heard since that he was in France—I do not know whether the other men are in England, they may be.
MR. ATTORNEY GENERAL . Q. You have been asked about entertaining these people from the country; Murphy, you say, had his meals with you for some time when he was there? A. Yes? he gave me 1l. 5s. for it—O'Connor's meeting was twelve months ago, last May; it was some time before the explosion—it was before Burke was taken, and had nothing to do with it—I understood the object of it to be, to get funds to build a church, nothing to do with Fenianism—Father O'Connor said something, and I heard a clapping of hands, but I do not know what he said—they told me to take the second chair; in fact, I was under the influence of drink, and I do not think I was able to take the chair—a great many persons were present at the meeting—I did not know Vaughan then—I am a tailor, and employ men—I had, I think, eleven men working for me at the time of the strike—I have a wife and two children—I may have been an hour and a half at the meeting at William Desmond's—it might be an hour after the meeting that William Desmond went out with Ryan, who had been grazed, and until then he was in the hall with the rest of them—I went out to the public-house, had threepennyworth of brandy, and went back to the meeting—I think none of the men had left except Ryan—I think William Desmond was in the room—he or English asked me to come up next day at twelve o'clock, and I said that I could not, I was too busy—when William Desmond went away with Ryan, I think he came back into the room—Dolan is a man who I worked for—I had been ill, and English finished the coat for me, which was partly finished—Mr. Dolan paid for it—I have seen him wear it—it would not have fitted Mr. Morrisson, as Mr. Dolan is bigger than any man here—Captain Costello, an officer in the American army, gave me a ticket for the coat; it was pawned—I was arrested on Thursday night, and was, I think, taken before the Magistrate on the Friday—on one occasion, when I was at Bow Street, English made a statement to me, and very toon after that I sent for the
Governor of the gaol—I remember being examined at the police-court—the Magistrate put questions to me, and I answered them—I had made statements before that with regard to other persons not present in the dock—I think the gentleman who examined me told me that I was not to mind names—I answered the questions put to me at the police-court as well as I could—Mrs. Koeppl worked for me on my premises—I met her accidentally, I think on the evening of the 13th, at the corner of Brewer Street, in the street—she was leaving work and going home—she made an application for money—I think Barrett was in the street; I think I met him a few minutes previously—I went into the house to get change, and gave Mrs. Koeppl 2s. 6d., I think—I do not think I said anything about Mrs. Koeppl at the police-court; I said nothing there but what I was asked.
JAMES VAUGHAN . I am a tailor, and work for Messrs. Davis & Goodman, in Oxford Street—I have known Timothy Desmond since 1865, William eighteen months, English four or five years, and O'Keefe about eighteen months—I have spoken to Mullany upon different occasions, principally at Cavanagh's—I was sworn in in 1865 as a member of the Fenian Brotherhood—Timothy Desmond administered the Fenian oath to me—I saw Timothy Desmond on the day of the explosion, between 1.30 and 2.30—he called upon me at my house, Pugh's Place, Carnaby Street, Golden Square, and halloed out "Ahoy!"—I said to him, "Tim, have you been muddling it?"—he replied, "Well, I have seen my son off to sea this morning"—I asked him that question because I could see he had been drinking that morning—I should not say that he was then drunk—he asked my wife did she see his wife—she said, "No"—I said, "You do not mean to say, Ted, that your wife has hooked it from you?"—he said, "Yes, and, by the God that made me, she will never lay beside me again"—he then wished my wife good-bye and kissed her, and said that he was going to take a jump—my wife said, "Do not be so foolish"—he then leant over the board to me, and whispered to me that the thing must be done—I asked him what, and he said, "We are going to blow up the House of Detention"—I asked him why: he said, "The thing must be done; we have found out from Anne Justice, by going in with Casey's dinner to him, that they exercise in the yard, and the thing must be done between 3.30 and 4; the trick must be done"—he then wished me good-bye, and said, "When I am launched into eternity, pray for me; or if I get nothing, and am unarrested, the next place will be Millbank"—he then kissed me, and shook me by the hands, and went away—I did not see him again till he was a prisoner—on the same evening, the day of the explosion, English came to the door leading into my room, and said, "For God's sake, Jim, give me as much as you can, for we want to send them off"—I asked who—he said, "What, have you not heard?"—I said, "No"—he said, "The House of Detention is blown b—y bang up!"—I gave him 2s., and told him I could not give him any more, as I was slack—he said, "For God's sake, Jim, try and get as much as you can, for we want it d—d bad"—I saw him next morning, Saturday, in Tyler Street, Regent Street—I went in to buy a newspaper, and when I came out I saw him reading a placard on a board against the shop, and he said "Diabolical" reading from the placard, which was headed "Diabolical Outrage"—I said, "Halloa, Nick!"—he said, "Yes, it is diabolical, and we will burn the whole of London yet, and that will be more diabolical"—I then wished him good-bye in Carnaby Street—on the same day, at 12.30, I was at Bow Street, and saw O'Keefe at the corner of Bow
Street and Russell Street—he came across the road to me, and asked me if I had seen Nick—I told him I had, and had left him in Carnaby Street—he said, "D——it, I had an appointment with him"—I then had a conversation with him at the corner of the street, and with two other gentlemen who had joined us: neither of the prisoners—I said that the explosion was a cruel thing: that there was such a great sacrifice of human life—O'Keefe said, "A thing like that cannot be done without a great sacrifice"—we crossed the road, and went into a public-house at the corner of Bow Street and Russell Street, past Drury Lane Theatre—O'Keefe went with me, and two other young men—when I was in the public-house William Desmond came in, and said, "Halloa, Jimmy, what do you think of that d——d fool?"—I said, "Who?"—he said, "Ted's wife" (we always called Timothy Desmond Ted); "She has been saying that they have called him a coward. Did you ever hear me call him a coward, Jimmy?"—I said, "No"—English then came in, and took William Desmond by the arm, and said, "You don't ward here, now"—he repeated the same words did I ever hear him call Timothy Desmond a coward?—I said, "No"—he had been drinking with the company, but was perfectly sober—I was not drinking that morning—I then said that it was a bad job, and William Desmond said, "It served him b——y well right, "I understood him to mean Timothy Desmond, "for he had no business there, we sent him back, and told him to go and take an hour's sleep"—English said that it served him d——d well right, for he had no business there, and if he was anything of a man he would not let his wife know as much as he knew himself—serving him right had reference to the explosion—I took from their meaning that Timothy Desmond was rather too drunk to go on with the business—Timothy Desmond had been arrested on Friday night, and this was Saturday, after the explosion—they both left—I went to Bow Street to see the prisoners brought up—I thought I would be in time to see them brought up or go away—I did not see them brought up, but I saw Timothy Desmond's wife, and spoke to her, and asked her to have some drink—I did not see either of them after that till the Sunday evening, when I saw William and Timothy Desmond at Cavanagh's, in Pollen Street, and Mullany and some others in the private bar—I saw them on Friday night at Cavanagh's, and saw William Desmond and his wife outside—I told him there were several detectives watching his house, and I should advise him to take his hook—he said, "What am I to do, Jimmy, I have got no money?"—William Desmond and English were then inside the public bar, and Mullany was in the private bar, with several other gentlemen—William Desmond did not say anything outside about we being seen together; the only conversation between us outside was about seeing detectives watching his house—I asked him for some money to get some drink—he said, "Jimmy, you know b——well I have got no money, and therefore I cannot move"—we went inside, and Mullany handed a glass of liquor; which I took to be whiskey; to English—I have seen Barrett on two occasions with English: on 6th December, in Cavanagh's private bar, but had no conversation with him, and about four days afterwards in Regent Street—he then had long Dundreary whiskers and a slight moustache.
Cross-examined by MR. W. SLEIGH. Q. You state to-day that William Desmond said "What am I to do, Jimmy, I have got no money?" when you were examined at the police-court did you say that? A. Yes—my deposition was read over to me, and I signed it—I found something wrong and altered it—as I left it, so it is.
Cross-examined by MR. STRAIGHT. Q. What were you before you became a Fenian? A. A tailor—I was in the Army at one time—I refuse to say whether I deserted—am I bound, my Lord, to criminate myself?—I ceased to be in the Army in 1859, or 1860—in fact, I answered the question before at the police-court—I am married, and live with my wife—I have a stepdaughter—I cannot say whether this was nearer two than half-past—I was very busy, it was my pay day, and I was at work on the board—I do not know the size of the board, perhaps you had better get a carpenter—it is perhaps eighteen feet long—I did not say I had a shop, it is a room—I cannot always afford to keep a shop to work in—I cannot say whether my step-daughter was there—my wife wag there on the other end of the board—I am positive Timothy Desmond had been drinking when he said "Ahoy"—he said he had sent his son Danny to sea—I have never been mad—I cannot say that I have ever been under restraint—I used to drink—I cannot say whether I ever drunk myself into delirium tremens—I know Dr. French, he told me I was not to drink, but Dr. Dickinson told me I was to drink—I cannot say whether I have had delirium tremens, or whether I have been under restraint—I was in St. James's workhouse twice—I am a very hard working man—it was after I had commenced being a tailor that I went into St. James's workhouse; in fact, I have been several times in the workhouse, not inside, but applying for relief—I have been in twice as a lodger—I am positive I was not put into the mad part—I do not wish to swear at all—Timothy Desmond might have been a yard and a half from my wife when he whispered to me—he put his mouth right up to my ear—until then he had been talking in the ordinary way to me—he had spoken previously to my wife—he rubbed his side against me, but did not lurch against me—it was after he asked my wife about his wife that he said he was going to take a jump; it was when he kissed her—the impression on my mind was not that he was going to commit suicide, certainly not; because he winked at me when he said it.
Cross-examined by MR. KEOGH. Q. How long had you known Mullany? A. I dare say eighteen months or two years, I cannot say which—I remember the night before the O'Connor meeting, which was in a room in Cavanagh's public-house—Mullany was there—I cannot say what month it was in—it was about three months from the time I gave my evidence, which was in December—I spoke to Mullany at that meeting—I was a soldier in the 15th Regiment, if I was in it now I should not be standing here—I took an oath when I went into the Regiment, to serve Her Majesty the Queen—I expect I broke that oath when I deserted away—I did desert, I gave that evidence before.
Cross-examined by MR. GREENE. Q. You are a member of the Fenian Brotherhood you say, have you ever sworn in any members? A. No—I was sworn in—only two persons are present when a man is sworn in—that is the invariable rule—it is not done in the presence of a number of members—I did not know the House of Detention was going to be blown up—I knew so much as Timothy Desmond told me—I thought it was only the wall, I said so in my evidence—no mention was made of Barrett in the conversation—I made no allusion to him at my first examination, but subsequently I was informed that a man named Barrett had been arrested and brought up from Scotland, and I was taken to Millbank Prison to identify him—I was asked, did I know any prisoner there? I was to look for the right one—I saw Timothy Desmond, and Anne Justice, and all of them,
and immediately Barrett came outside I knew him—I had seen them at Bow Street police-office, except Barrett, and knew them.
Q. Were you shown Barrett? A. I was taken to the cell, and he was called out, but I did not know his name; and another party was called out, I think it was O'Neill, and another man named Clancey—those were the persons who had been arrested—I recognized Barrett—I knew him before; I had seen him twice—I said that the first occasion was in the early part of December; it might have been the 6th—it was about the 6th that I saw him at Cavanagh's; and I saw him about four days afterwards in Regent Street—there was nothing to fix it on my memory more than seeing him with English at Cavanagh's, talking privately—I did not know him connected with the Fenian Brotherhood; there are plenty of us who do not know each other in the Fenian society, it is so large—I did not see him—he is quite a stranger to me—no mention was made of him in the conversation I had with the Desmonds—when I saw him in December his whiskers were very large, a kind of Dundreary whiskers, coming down in a bunch, and a slight moustache, but no beard; his chin was clean shaved—when I saw him in prison, his whiskers had been shaved off, and had three or four weeks' growth; but, notwithstanding that, I recognized him immediately he came out of the cell.
Cross-examined by MR. WILLIAMS. You say you were in the Army; were you ever tried by court martial? A. I was once, and was reduced to the ranks—I had been a corporal—that is the only time that I was tried—I refuse to answer how I have been living since I gave information to the police—I have been receiving payment from the police; I cannot say through whom, but through a certain constable, and through different parties at times—that has been my only means of subsistence ever since I gave information—I saw a placard offering a reward before I gave information; I did not read it at all—I gave information to Sergeant Cole, I dare say three hours afterwards—I have known him thirteen years, or more—I never drank with him in my life, nor have I been in the habit of going about with him—I expect to get a portion of the reward, if these men are convicted—the conversation which began with "Ahoy" was not earlier than 1.30, or later than 2.30—it was a few paces off, near Carnaby Street, Golden Square—it could npt have been later than 2.30—I swear that I heard that conversation outside Bow Street police-court, with O'Keefe and two other men, that it was a cruel thing, and there was a great sacrifice of life—that conversation was in the street; I am sure of that, and likewise in the public-house as well—I did not say, "Have you seen English?" when O'Keefe ran over to me I said, "Have you seen Nick?"—we talked about the explosion previous to going to the public-house—O'Keefe and the two strange men talked about the explosion at the corner of Russell Street, and Bow Street, and likewise at the public-house—I said, at Bow Street, that they talked about the explosion, both in the street and the public-house—I said that it took place in the public-house, and also O'Keefe's answer, "A thing like that cannot be done without a great sacrifice"—that was also said in the public-house—I have not said that the same conversation took place in the street; I said that the first thing that you asked me took place in the street and the public-house, but not the last—O'Keefe said, at the corner of Bow Street, "These things cannot be done without a sacrifice," and he said it in the public-house as well—there were more than five or six people in the public-house, but I never counted them—what was said was not
said aloud, it was a kind of whisper among the lot of us—I was not drinking that day—it was not said loud enough for the other people in the bar to hear, but loud enough not only for me to hear, but the other parties who were with me—there were five of us in the public-house, O'Keefe, William Desmond, English, and one or two others—they were not strangers; I knew them well, and also the men at the corner of the street, but I do not know their names, only their features—I have known Mullany eighteen months or two years—I have met him on several occasions, and have spoken to him; I have said "Good evening"—I suppose he knew I was a member of the Brotherhood—I did not know that he was, but I was told he was a centre—I have only said "Good day," or "Good evening, "to him; I never had conversations with him—I have been at meetings where he was—I knew his name—he has not addressed me as Vaughan—that is the name I have always gone by up to the present time—I did not change my name when I left the Army—my wife is living with me, and I have been living on the money supplied by the police.
MR. SOLICITOR GENERAL . How many years is it since you deserted? A. It was between 1859 and 1861—I was reduced to the ranks for absence without leave—that was before I deserted—I was never tried for anything disgraceful before I went into the Army—I was learning the tailoring trade with, my father, it may be two, three, or four years ago, that I was an indoor dweller in the workhouse, I cannot say—it was then that was I warned by Dr. French about the habit of drinking—my step-daughter is about nine years old—when men are sworn into the Fenian Brotherhood only two persons are present, but there are always others in the room when they are sworn in as centres—I was never present, but I have heard so—I was sworn in in Duck Lane, Soho—I have seen Mullany at different times at Cavanagh's, and at the meeting for Father O'Connor—plenty of people were present when I saw him.
COURT. Q. What punishment had you for being absent without leave? A. I was only degraded—I served eighteen months or more—I went out at night and stopped about two days out and returned back again.
JOHN PATRICK M'EWEN . I am a clerk to Messrs. Curtis and Harvey, gunpowder manufacturers—on Wednesday, December 5, a man called at 74, Lombard Street—he asked if he could have some 501bs. of blasting powder next day—I told him he could have it the day after the next day—he said he would see his partner and call again—about four o'clock the same afternoon he came and ordered 2001bs., to be delivered at 8, Pulteney Court, Silver Street, on Friday, to the name of George Smith—on the Friday, the 6th, the powder was sent by a man named Purchase, our carman, who is here—the powder was delivered from our works at Hounslow to Purchase.
WILLIAM PURCHASE . I am carman to Messrs. Curtis and Harvey—on Friday, December 6th, I took four half-barrels of gunpowder to 8, Pulteney Court, each weighing 50lbs.—I took them in the van to the end of the court, and went up to No. 8, a greengrocer's shop, and asked for Mr. Smith—a man purporting to be Smith came to me, and took charge of the powder—I carried one half-barrel into the yard of No. 8, the other three I put into a truck at the tail of the van, by Smith's directions—the truck was taken in the direction of Golden Square, by a man who was waiting with it, when I came back from the house—a piece of tarpaulin was put over the powder, before the truck was taken away, by Smith—it was
between 10.30 and 11 in the morning—I was paid 3l. 7s. 6d. for it—the barrels were about the size of a butter tub.
MARTHA KENSLEY . In December last I lodged at No. 8, Pulteney Court, at Mrs. Martin's—she kept a greengrocer's shop—at the time of the explosion, and before, I had seen Barrett several times there, in the shop, and coming in and out of the parlour door—the last time I saw him, I think, was the Sunday night before the explosion—he then wore very full whiskers, no beard, and a very little moustache—I had seen him several times—I identified his photograph before he was brought from Glasgow.
Cross-examined by MR. BAKER GREENE. Q. Did that photograph represent him as he was when he was arrested in Glasgow, without whiskers? A. No, it was the same as I had seen him at Mrs. Martin's—I am a waistcoatmaker, living with my parents—I first was brought to see Barrett by the police, at the King Street station, Westminster—he was amongst other prisoners, and I did not at first recognize him—I saw him next, I think, at Millbank, where I was taken by the police—I had an idea at first that he was the man, but wanted to see him again to be quite sure of him—at Millbank I recognized him amongst the other prisoners—I was ordered to attend at Bow Street on the Monday morning—the police came and inquired at the house about the young men who had lodged in the house—several lodged there: I believe three or four—I first saw Barrett, I think, about two months before the explosion—I never spoke to him—the last Sunday I saw him he was going out with Mrs. Martin, and I made the remark to my parents, because she was a lone woman—I fix this as the Sunday before the explosion, from my parents having traced it back—I also believe it in my own mind—I stated before the Magistrate that it was on the Monday night—I saw him on that night as well as on the Monday night, so I make a mistake when I say the Sunday was the last time I saw him—I believe it was about a week after the explosion that the police first applied to me—I did not know when Barrett was arrested in Scotland—he had sandy whiskers, very full and very long—he had nothing on his chin—I am not sure whether he wore a moustache, but if he did it was very little indeed—he always carried a carpet bag—I never saw him once without—he had it when he went out with Mrs. Martin.
MR. ATTORNEY-GENERAL. Q. How long was it after the explosion that you were shown Barrett's photograph? A. I don't recollect for certain—I went to identify him a week after that—I lived with my parents on the first floor—Mrs. Martin lived in the parlour, and I saw Barrett and her at the private door, going out—at the station-house I saw Barrett amongst a number of other prisoners on the Sunday—I went to Bow Street on the Monday—at Millbank, Barrett was shown me with the other prisoners, and then I was satisfied it was the man—he was not pointed out to me—I was timid on the first occasion—he was very much altered both in dress and appearance from when he was in Pulteney Court—I saw him eight or nine times at Mrs. Martin's—Mrs. Martin, I believe, is now in prison—I was twice at Bow Street, but only once before the Magistrate—I saw Barrett only twice before I identified him—Mrs. Martin is in prison for threatening my life—my father and mother, I believe, have seen Barrett once—I am nineteen years old.
WILLIAM PURCHASE (re-examined: looking at the staves produced). These are much larger than a 501bs. barrel—the half-barrels I delivered were nothing to be compared to these; they were about twenty inches by fifteen.
THOMAS KENSLEY . I live at 8, Pulteney Court—I am brother of the last witness—we have left there now about three weeks—we were living there a short time before the explosion—I know the nearest prisoner to me (Barrett)—I have seen him at Mrs. Martin's, the same house I lived in; she was the landlady of No. 8—I first saw him there about five or six weeks, I should think, before the explosion—the last time I saw him there was about a week before the explosion—it was on the Sunday morning before the explosion, between 9 and 10 o'clock—he was outside the shop door; I mean the entrance to the shop—there is no outer door to the shop—it is open on Sunday—they were just beginning to open the shop that morning when I saw him—no one was with him—I can't exactly recollect how recently before that I had seen him—I had seen him at Mrs. Martin's—I was examined before the Magistrate—I saw him at Millbank on the Saturday before that: I went there to identify him—the prisoners were taken out of their cells one at a time; he was taken out of his cell pretty nearly the last—I did not at first recognize him as the man I had seen; there was a great change in him, about his dress, and his whiskers were greatly altered—when I saw him before the explosion he had long whiskers, no beard, and only a faint moustache—when I saw him at Millbank his whiskers were all shaved off, but they had been growing again—he was also dressed differently—he wore a light grey overcoat at Mrs. Martin's—when I saw him afterwards he had on a blue pilot jacket—Pulteney Court is between Windmill Street and New Street—a truck can come down either of the streets at the side of the court, but cannot get up the court—No. 8 is near the end of the court, on the right-hand side.
Cross-examined by MR. GREENE. Q. When were you first spoken to about giving information at Bow Street? A. About a week after the explosion I was asked if I had seen any man that used to come to our house, as there were some lodgers over our head—I said, "Yes, my father took-me down to Scotland Yard, "and I told Inspector Clark how the man I saw was dressed—I singled out this man because I knew the others, and had seen them mostly with Mrs. Martin—Barrett was a man that noticed you, he had a very peculiar way with his eyes of noticing you as you passed out—I noticed him most—I mentioned about him because my sister had told about the others that lived in the house, and he was the man I noticed most as I passed out—I did not know whether he lodged there or no—I knew the other men lodged there, but my sister had given a description of them, not of Barrett, she had not noticed him much, I think; she did not tell me so, but she did not say anything about him that night—I recollect her going to see Barrett at King Street—I think it was on the Sunday—I think it was after I had been to Millbank, I won't be sure—I think it was after I had recognized him, my sister was not with me at Millbank, and I was not with her at King Street—She did not speak to me about having been to King Street to see him—I heard no account of it from her own lips, my mother was talking about it—I can't say whether that was before I went to Millbank—I won't be positive—I heard no description of Barrett before I went to Millbank—I did not hear that he had shaved his whiskers off—I did not ask my sister whether she had identified him—I believe I was examined at Bow Street the same day as my sister—I did not go there with her, I went by myself—I knew she was going—I did not know she was going to identify the man, then—my father and mother are not here—my father had seen the man continually, and we have been kept awake in the night, by men passing up and dawn.
stairs frequently, till 2 or 3 in the morning—when I say the prisoners were taken out of their cells at Millbank, I mean the prisoners at the bar—I can't say whether they were dressed as they are now—I did not see the photograph that was shown to my sister—I never saw it—she was not with me when I saw Barrett on the Sunday—I was just going to my work at the Regent Street station—I am a telegraph clerk—we go to duty three Sundays out of four, very often.
MR. ATTORNEY GENERAL . Q. It was in the morning you saw him? A. Yes, as I went to work—my father has complained several times of the people making a great noise going up and down stairs at night—I have seen Barrett in the shop with Mrs. Martin, and in the parlour as well—in passing the shop you can see into the parlour, it is a very wide shop—it has no door—it is a greengrocer's—the man struck me, from having a peculiar way in his eyes in looking at you—I have seen that person there several times in the week, at night time, at the opening of the shop, and also in the parlour with Mrs. Martin.
MART ANN PAGE . I am the wife of Charles Page—I live at 1, Pulteney Court, opposite to Mrs. Martin's—I remember the explosion—a short time before that I saw William Desmond and English at Mrs. Martin's, talking to her—I have seen William Desmond once or twice there; it might be a week before the explosion, it might be longer—I have seen English several times waiting about as if for other men.
Cross-examined by MR. W. SLEIGH. Q. How long before the explosion did you see William Desmond in Pulteney Court? A. I can't say—when at Bow Street I said I identified only one man, and he was not William Desmond—after being examined I saw Martha Kensley, and spoke to her, as well as to other witnesses and policemen—I said then I fancied I knew William Desmond, and I did know him—on the second examination, I suppose, I told the Police Magistrate that I had seen him nearly every day at Mrs. Martin's, a week before the explosion—I saw him and a great number of other men that I could speak to if I saw them—I went to Millbank to identify the prisoners, and failed to identify William Desmond.
Cross-examined by MR. KEOGH. Q. You had no acquaintance with English? A. No; but I remember him being at Pulteney Court shortly before the explosion—I did not know his name.
MR. ATTORNEY-GENERAL. Q. How long after speaking to Martha Kensley, at Bow Street, on 28th January, did you go back into Court and identify William Desmond? A. Directly—I saw English waiting outside for other men who were in Mrs. Martin's house.
CLARISSA DEPOIX . I live with my husband at 1, Pulteney Court, at the time of the explosion—before that time I had seen William Desmond, English, and O'Keefe—William Desmond I have seen several times talking outside of Mrs. Martin's, the greengrocer's, with other men—I think the last time I saw them was about six weeks before the explosion—O'Keefe I have only seen in the neighbourhood.
Cross-examined by MR. W. SLEIGH. Q. Is your house opposite Mrs. Martin's? A. Right opposite—I occupied the shop all day and could see people who went in—I went to Millbank, and I did not on that occasion recognize William Desmond—at Bow Street, on 28th January, I recognized English and O'Keefe, but said nothing about William Desmond—after leaving the Court, I said to Mr. Cole, or Mr. Thompson, that I knew the gentleman with the red beard (William Desmond), and he asked why I did
not say so in the Court—I then went into Court a second time and identified him—I had no conversation with Butters or Mrs. Page, or Craufurd.
Cross-examined by MR. KEOGH. Q. The last time you saw English and Martin was six weeks before the explosion? A. Yes.
Cross-examined by MR. M. WILLIAMS. Q. Before the Magistrate did you say "I thought I knew O'Keefe's features?" A. Yes.
ELIZABETH BUTTERS . I am the wife of Charles Butters, and live at 2, Pulteney Court—No. 8 is nearly opposite—I have seen William Desmond and English at Mrs. Martin's, Desmond several times, and English two or three times—the last time I saw them before the explosion might be a month or six weeks.
Cross-examined by MR. W. SLEIGH. Q. I believe you also, in giving your evidence at first, omitted the mention of William Desmond? A. I did not at first recognize William Desmond, either at Millbank or in the Police Court—I went back into the Court after telling Sergeant Cole I could recognise William Desmond, and identified him—it may have been two or three months before the explosion that I saw William Desmond—at the Police Court I said it was last summer.
Cross-examined by MR. KEOGH. Q. Was this what you said with regard to English at the Police Court, "I have not seen English there since the summer, it might have been a couple of months before the explosion that I saw English there?" A. Yes.
ANN STRINGPIBLD . I live at 3, Wingrove Place, Clerkenwell, just at the corner of Corporation Lane, near Woodbridge Street—my husband is a baker—I have seen Barrett at the corner of Woodbridge Street and Corporation Lane on several occasions—I saw him there about a month previous to the explosion, and on several occasions—me and my husband both thought he was a detective—I saw him there repeatedly—I cannot say how many times—the last time was about a week or ten days before the explosion.
Cross-examined by MR. GREENE. Q. You say that you recognize Barrett, but when you were asked in the police-office whether you recognized him, did you do so? A. I said that to the best of my recollection I thought he was the man—there are a great many people in the neighbourhood where I live—the first time I saw Barrett was a month before the explosion—he wore, on one occasion, a drab or brown coat, and on the next occasion, something of a pilot coat, I think, and a mixed straw hat—I was taken to Millbank to see if I recognized the man there—before I was taken there a friend of mine, Mrs. Smithers, was there, and I happened to say that Barrett was one of the men—it was after the explosion—she is a witness, and had been examined the same day, and was talking to me—she gave no description of Barrett; he was not in custody then—I said, "I wonder if the man who is about here so often is the man?" and when I was taken to Millbank, I recognized him as the man—he had whiskers, but when I saw him at Millbank they were much shorter, but I recognized him, although there was that difference—in my depositions I say to the best of my belief, and that is what I say now—I should not like to swear that he is the man, but to the best of my belief he is.
who is in the country—we live at 71/2, Cross Street, Regent Street—I was living there last December, it is close to Golden Square—Pugh's Place runs out of Carnaby Street—I know William Desmond, and have seen him there—I heard of the explosion in December—at that time William Desmond lived at 10, Cross Street, on the same side as us—we could not see into his back yard from our house—I was at his street door on the day I heard of the explosion, and could see to the back yard, where there were two or three men who I did not know—I did not see William Desmond there—I saw English come from the house, and go towards Carnaby Street, which opens out of Cross Street; he stood at the corner of Cross Street, and Carnaby Street, talking to some gentlemen who I do not know—I had not known him before he came from down stairs in Desmond's place—Desmond lived on the second floor.
Cross-examined by MR. KEOGH. Q. About what hour did you see English come out of the house? A. Between 2 and 3 o'clock on the Thursday—it was not quite 3.
SARAH SMITHERS . I am the wife of Joseph Smithers, who keeps the Bell beer-shop, at the corner of Corporation Lane and Plummer's Place, close to the prison wall—about 3 o'clock on the day before the explosion, four men came in and asked for bread and cheese and stout; my husband served them—we do not keep bread and cheese, and they remained while it was fetched—English is one of those, to the best of my belief—they were there about twenty minutes—I think Barrett was also one of them, but am not sure; I am quite sure I had seen him before the explosion; I do not know when, but I remember his face.
Cross-examined by MR. KEOGH. Q. You have stated "I remember the day before the explosion, four men who I have not seen before came to our house; I believe the prisoner English to be one of the four men; he had been in our house before?" A. I said that I had seen him before—I said that because I remembered having seen his face when I saw him at Bow Street afterwards—I do not remember whether it was in the house or outside, but I am sure I had seen his face—it is only my belief that I had seen them before when they came to my house on Thursday.
Cross-examined by MR. GREENE. Q. You say that you are not sure you saw Barrett? A. No—I have a fluttering notion that I had seen his face—I think his beard was longer then; he had a long beard when I first saw him—I had a conversation with Mrs. Stringfield after the examination at Bow Street, we went and drank tegether, I mentioned that I had been to Bow Street, but I did not say that I had seen a man who I had seen before at my house, because I had not seen Barrett then.
MR. ATTOREY GENERAL . Q. I believe you were taken before the Magistrate? A. Yes—there was some interval between the two times—I had seen Barrett at Millbank before I was before the Magistrate the second time, and recognized him—he then looked about the same as he does now, only that his beard was longer—I saw no alteration in his appearance then, only regarding the beard.
JAMES STRATTON . I am in carman, at Plummer's Place, Corporation Lane, and was so in December last—I was in and out of the Bell beer house on the day before the explosion several times—I saw English come in and out of the Bell—I would not be certain as to the time; as I go in very frequently to have some refreshment—on the same day I was standing against a post which leads to my stable, and saw two men coming in a direction from St.
John Street Road, they passed me with a truck and a barrel on it, it Was about fifteen or sixteen minutes to four—one man had a sort of old sack thrown over his shoulders, when the truck passed me—I saw them make a sort of a slip with the track, it looked to me done accidentally, it went down in this manner, with the handle on the ground, and a cask, like a paraffin cask, came out of it; a sort of dark-headed cask—it did not fall, the man with the truck eased it and it was put against the prison wall there, nearly opposite No. 3 or 3A—the numbers run rather different, but I think it was opposite 3A—it was placed close to where the prison wall was blown down the next day—I went into my stable after that for two or three minutes, and when I came out again the cask and the truck and the men were gone—Timothy Desmond is the man who passed me with the truck; I could not see the other because he was on the other side—he was on this side of the truck from me, but I did not notice him.
Cross-examined by MR. STRIAGHT. Q. At what time was it you say you saw the truck? A. About 3.45 or 3.50, or something like that—I would not be positive to the time—the Bell is at the corner of Plummer's Place—my premises arc round the corner, at the back of No. 7, my stable is in Bennett Place, down at the Bell—I go in and out of the Bell for refreshment when I think proper—I had had lunch that day—the truck was at the side of the prison wall when it passed me—I was standing by the beer-shop—I have not been lunching to-day at your expense—I have been drinking to-day—I am giving you my serious attention—there are two ports of Plummer's Place—I have to take my horse through here to get to my stable; it is opposite the private door of the Bell—it is the narrow passage at the back of Mr. Bonnett's, No. 7—these men were not on the pavement, they could not be driving the truck, they were on the road with it—I have been examined several times before the Magistrate; I can't say the dates, I could tell you if I had my book—I was examined twice at Bow Street in this manner, once I was examined before the Judge, and since before the clerk; the Coroner—on the night of the explosion I told Mr. Potter and Mr. Bryant that I had seen persons in Corporation Lane the day before—I cannot say when I first went to the police court, whether it was a week afterwards or a month—I said then "I think it was the prisoner with black whiskers" and that is all I am able to say to-day—I said "I think Desmond is one of the men who drawed the truck, but I did not take particular notice"—I did not follow the man to see what he was doing of—I said that the man passed me and I did not take particular notice, and the reason was that I had no notice to take of him, but I saw the man pass with the truck. (The witness's deposition stated. "I took no particular notice of lameness")—a truck in Corporation Lane is sometimes extraordinary.
Cross-examined by MR. KEOGH. Q. Is English a stranger to you? A. I know nothing of the man, only seeing him come inside the Bell—I am not positive about him—I do not know that I ever saw him before that time I am positive he is the man who came in and out—I used to make out my little bills inside the beer-shop—I cannot say that I ever saw him come in and out before that day, but before the explosion took place it was not my business to take notice—I am in the habit of taking refreshment when I require it—I took refreshment there in the morning if I required it—I did not do so at the Bell that morning; they do not open very carly—I go there in the afternoon for refreshment, and in the middle of the day—the day I saw English was the day before the explosion—I went to the Bell at mid-day,
and saw him come in and out—I did not notice the time—I do not notice every man who comes into a man's place.
RICHARD WELLS . I am a gold chain maker, at 10, Earl Street, Clerkenwell—I remember the explosion taking place on the 13th—on the day before that, at 3.45 or 3.50 in the afternoon, I had come from Bowling Green Lane, and was in Corporation Lane, which is a continuation of it, and saw two men with a barrel on the pavement, about a foot from the prison wall, rather better than half-way up the street—the wall was blown down next day, just at the place where I imagine the barrel to have been—one man was standing with his back to the wall and the other was leaning over the side of the barrel—I saw a truck two or three yards from the barrel—they left the barrel there, came towards me and passed me, one going towards Rosoman Street and the other towards Bowling Green Lane—Rosoman Street turns out of Corporation Lane, and Bowling Green Lane is a straight line from it—I was about a quarter of the way up Corporation Lane when they met me and passed me, and after they got past me I turned and looked after them, and one of them turned round and laughed at me—that was O'Keefe, to the best of my belief, he was the one who was leaning over the barrel—I went on through Corporation Lane, and as I passed the barrel I saw that some substance projecting from it was alight; it burnt blue and then went out—a woman and child were near the place—I passed on and took no further notice—I observed the truck as I passed, it was two or three yards off in the road, and the words "To let" were painted on the back of it—the barrel was about a foot from the prison wall as I passed by—there is pavement on the prison wall side as well as the other—there was a bit of black oil cloth on the truck—I went about my work, and saw nothing more.
Cross-examined by MR. M. WILLIAMS. Q. Had you ever seen the person you believe to be O'Keefe before that day? A. No—when I saw him at Bow Street he was not in the dock, but he was brought out of a cell and put in the dock for the purpose of identification—it was as he turned his face, on the day before the explosion, that I saw him, I did not notice any more of him—I have never said anything more than "To the best of my belief"—judging from that glance I believe him to be the man.
COURT. Q. You did not notice him otherwise? A. No, I only know the coat and hat he had on, it was a brown coat and a black wideawake hat.
COURT. Q. Have you ever seen Timothy Desmond before you saw him with the truck? A. No, not to my belief; he might have passed me, but not to my knowledge.
Wednesday, April 22nd 1868.
THOMAS REEVES CLIFFORD . I am a warder in the Clerkenwell House of Detention, and also a cook—in December I was living at 11, Corporation Row—it is opposite the Bell public-house, next to Woodbridge Street—on the afternoon of the 12th of December, I left the prison and went home a little before 4 o'clock—I went to my window at about 4.7 or 4.10, a few minutes past 4 o'clock—I saw three men, two dragging a truck—there was a barrel on it, with something black over it—the men were coming up Corporation Lane to Coburg Street—they left the prison, and passed my house—the truck was in the road—as they passed they were in conversation—a third man was on the pavement—the men with the truck went to the left into Coburg Street—I saw them turn into it—I could only see them turn into Coburg
Street—I saw them look back at the prison wall several times—they were smoking—I believe that Timothy Desmond and William Desmond were the two men who were drawing the truck—(the prisoners were ordered to stand up. The witness pointed to Timothy Desmond and English)—I mean Timothy Desmond and English—I did not know either of the men before—I should think that it was a 36 gallon cask that I saw—I recognized the third man on the pavement as Allen, who was discharged—I lost sight of them in Coburg Street.
Cross-examined by MR. STRAIGHT. Q. I understand that you saw them from the window of your house? A. Yes, the truck was coming from the direction of Rosoman Street, going towards Woodbridge Street—I know a carman in Stratton's Place—I believe Timothy Desmond and English were the two men, but cannot swear to them.
Cross-examined by MR. KEOGH. Q. What floor were you on? A. The second floor—I saw their side faces—I had not seen them before.
Cross-examined by MR. WILLIAMS. Q. Had they tall hats on, or wideawakes? A. All three had tall hats on.
HANNAH GILLES . In December I was living in 3, St. James's Buildings—the night before the explosion I was going through Woodbridge Street, about 9.50—I saw the second prisoner in the dock (O'Keefe)—he was in the middle of the street—he was going towards Aylesbury Street, from Corporation Lane.
RICHARD MASKELL . I was a warder in the House of Detention in December—I remember taking the prisoners out to exersise at 2.45, on the afternoon of 12th December. (MR. GREENE objected to the evidence which this witness was about to give, as it related to what was done by Burke inside the prison, and not to any of the prisoners now upon their trial. MR. ATTORNEY GENERAL offered the evidence in proof of a conspiracy to aid Burke in his escape, in pursuance of which conspiracy, the acts done by the prisoners were carried out. THE COURT considered the evidence admissible.) Burke was a prisoner in the House of Detention, on a charge of treason-felony—Burke was in the exercising yard, walking round the circle with the other prisoners—he was in the yard near Corporation Lane—there was not a separation between that yard and the other yard—persons could pass from one to the other—Casey was in the adjoining yard at that time—in the yard in which Burke was exercising there were two rings of prisoners—Burke was in the outer ring—I observed him fall out of the ring against the wall, at the farthest point from the scene of the explosion, and near the Governor's garden—the spot was the farthest Burke could get from the outer wall—he took off his sidespring boot, wiped his foot and stocking with his hand slowly, at the same time looking up at the houses in Corporation Lane—he then put his boot on, fell in the rank, and walked on with the other prisoners—this was done very slowly—it was about 4.2—the next day I saw the effects of the explosion—there was nothing from the explosion thrown near the spot where Burke went, nothing within five or six yards of it.
WALTER HOLGATE . I am not quite 14 years of age—I work at a greengrocer's, at the corner of Corporation Lane—I remember the 12th of December—on that day I was running round the St. James's Buildings, a small court near Corporation Lane—I saw a barrel on the pavement, and a truck in the road—I asked Charles Moseley to roll it—that was a little after three o'clock—I know the time, because my usual dinner-hour was one, and I did not go till two that day, and did not get back till three.
GEORGE RANGER (Police Constable). On the 13th of December I was on duty in the inside of the House of Detention—I know the prisoner Anne Justice; I saw her at the House of Detention that day—the first time was 12.20 o'clock—she came to the gate and asked to see Casey—I cannot say whether she had anything with her; Mr. Worth, the warder, asked her if she was a relation of Casey, and she said, "Yes, I am his aunt"—she went inside the prison, and came out at twenty-five minutes to one o'clock—when she left she went to the Prince of Wales beer-house, which is just opposite the gate of the prison—she there spoke to a man named Allen—afterwards Mrs. Barry or Berry came, at about one o'clock, and said that she was "Burke's sister"—she was admitted—that was at one o'clock—in company with another constable I followed her, when she left at 1.50, as far as Fleet Street, where I lost her—she drove up in a cab to the prison, and left in a cab—I returned to the House of Detention by Short's Buildings—I saw Anne Justice there—that was at ten minutes to three o'clock—I went to the prison and made a communication to Mr. Moore, the warder—soon after that I saw Anne Justice again—Timothy Desmond was with her—they were opposite the Prince of Wales beer-house—I should say this was at a quarter or twenty minutes past three o'clock—while they were together I saw Allen and a man not in custody come down Stratton's Ground—Allen left the strange man and went and spoke to Anne Justice, and then Timothy Desmond joined the strange man and went down Short's Buildings—that goes towards Bridewell Walk—it leads to Corporation Lane—I should think this was about twenty-five minutes to four o'clock—I spoke to Goldsmith, the constable—I was in the House of Detention when the explosion took place—I was in the lodge gate and was blown down—I said to Worth, "Let me out," and I went out—when I got out I saw police constable Sutton, and said, "Come on," and we went into St. James's Walk, through Short's Buildings—I there saw Anne Justice running side by side with Allen—I should think at that time they were about twenty yards from the prison—I knocked Allen down and took him into custody—Justice was also taken—I saw Timothy Desmond running from the direction of the Prince of Wales beer-shop—he was coming from Short's Buildings to St. James's Walk—he was stopped by Sutton and taken into custody—he was wearing a black hat with a hat band—it was an ordinary high hat—the prisoners were taken into the prison yard—I went with them—we had a scuffle in the prison yard, Desmond and Allen were rough, both their hats fell off their heads—I put Allen on his back, and I think Desmond was put on his back—the two hats were picked up by Worth—the next morning, when they were removed from the House of Detention to Bow Street, I saw Timothy Desmond wearing a white billycock hat.
Cross-examined by MR. STRAIGHT. Q. It was a soft felt hat was it not? A. Yes, such a hat as a man might put in his pocket—I am positive it was about 1.40, when I left the prison—there is a clock there, and I can speak to the times with accuracy—in the door of the prison there are three bars through which the warder can look—it is the rule from 12 to 2 o'clock that relations can visit the prisoners—I am not an officer of the prison—the gate looks down St. James's Walk—you can see three or four doors down—after Anne Justice left I looked through the wicket—when I so looked Timothy Desmond was not at the corner—I was in and out of the prison several times, but I did not see him till after I came back from following Mrs. Barry—it was about 3.25 or 3.30, that I spoke to Goldsmith—when Inspector Thomson
arrived, about 3, Timothy Desmond was not by the Prince of Wales beer-shop—Allen was there—I saw police constable Sutton before the prisoners were taken—when I came back from following Mrs. Barry, I came through Short's Buildings—Timothy Desmond appeared to have been drinking, but he was not drunk or reeling about—Sutton took him into the prison—I did not use considerable violence—I did not give Desmond a black eye.
Cross-examined by Mr.M. WILLIAMS. Q. Was the 13th the first time Anne Justice had been in the prison? A. I believe it was—when I saw her running, it was on the other side of the prison from where the explosion took place.
WILLIAM ALFRED WORTH . I am a warder in the House of Detention, and was on duty at the entrance gate on 13th December—I saw Anne Justice there between 12.30 and 1 o'clock—I had never seen her before—she asked if she could see the prisoner Casey—I said "Yes"—I passed her in—I had orders from the governor to pass the friends of Burke and Casey in differently from those of others, without a ticket, which is the number of their cells—she was there about a quarter of an hour—when she went out she stood about the place for a considerable time—I could see through the wicket the whole of the time—I remained there till 2.10, and returned at 3.10 o'clock—I went off duty during that time—I saw her there when I went off—when I returned I saw her there still, speaking to Allen—I did not know him before—since that I have seen him several times—after I returned, I first saw Timothy Desmond between 3.30 and 3.45, he came from the direction of Rosoman Street, along Short's-Gardens, towards the prison—Allen and Justice were then standing at the corner of the Prince of Wales beer-house—they joined their heads together, as though they were conversing together as friends.
COURT. Q. I want to know whether they joined their heads in the ordinary way, as persons conversing familiarly, or as though there was some secret mystery? A. I should imagine, by the way they were close together, that they had some secret—there were several people about, and perhaps they did not wish them to hear.
MR. POLAND. Q. How long were they together like that? A. Some minutes—they then dispersed—Desmond went back again the same way towards Corporation Lane, and Allen went the contrary way, towards Stratton's Ground—they left Aune Justice at the corner, where she stood until—the explosion took place—it was about a quarter of an hour after they separated that the explosion took place—I was at the gate—Allen had then returned to Justice—when the explosion took place they ran up St. James's Walk—I let Ranger out, and he overtook them—Timothy Desmond was also brought in—he wore a black hat—I should say he had been drinking—I saw the scuffle, I opened the door and called to bring them in.
Cross-emmined by MR. STRAIGHT. Q. Are you one of the chief warders? A. One of the senior warders—prisoners are kept in separate cells, and are prevented from having communication with each other—Timothy Desmond came down Short's Buildings—I can't tell where ho came from—I say that he came from Rosoman Street, because that is the principal thoroughfare.
Cross-examined by MR. M. WILLIAMS. Q. You say you saw Anne Justice at ten minutes past two, did you see her continuously from the time she
left the prison at ten minutes past two. A. Yes—I do not recollect asking her what relation she was to Casey; she would be asked at the next gate—I might have done so—I have no recollection that she replied that she was his aunt—I said before the Magistrate "Nothing was said to me by Justice as to her relationship to Casey."
THOMAS KNOWLES (Policeiman G 200). I was specially on duty at the gate of the House of Detention, in December, while Burke and Casey were there—a Mrs. Barry or Berry used to come there, purporting to be Burke's sister—I was at the gate when Anne Justice applied for admission there on 13th December—she asked to see Casey, and said to the warder that she was his aunt—I saw her go from the prison at a quarter or ten minutes to one o'clock—Mrs. Barry came there about one, and left about twenty-five minutes to two.
Cross-examined by MR. M. WILLIAMS. Q. Was it to Worth that that was said about the aunt? A. Yes—I am certain of that.
JOHN GOLDSMITH (Policeman G. 264). On 13th December I was on duty outside the House of Detention—I saw Timothy Desmond, Anne Justice, and the man Allen, at a quarter-past three o'clock, opposite the gate of the prison, and by the Prince of Wales beer-shop—they stopped there for five minutes, and Allen then left—he walked up Stratton Yard and was gone eight or ten minutes, then he returned with another man not in custody, and rejoined the other two at the corner of St. James's Walk—they stopped together for about five minutes—Desmond and the man not in custody walked down Short's Buildings—they turned to the right, through Clerkenwell Close, in the direction of Corporation Lane—they turned to the right, by the Jolly Coopers public-house, into Clerkenwell Close, into Bridewell Walk and Corporation Lane—I then spoke to Ranger and Sutton, and went back to watch Allen and Justice—I did not know at that time that Allen was in communication with the police—ten or twelve minutes after Desmond and the other man left, the explosion took place, and Allen and Justice ran away—I followed them, and Desmond came running round the corner; he had been drinking.
Cross-examined by MR. STRAIGHT. Q. Were several constables on duty round the House of Detention? A. Yes—I was on duty in Short's Buildings—Ranger was next to me, and then Sutton—I did not see Knowles, he was in plain clothes—Anne Justice stood at the corner of St. James's Walk—Sutton was then standing by the Jolly Coopers—I did not see Timothy Desmond, Anne Justice, and Allen trying to get into the public-house, nor did I see either of them drink, or see beer brought out.
AMBROSE SUTTON (A R 243). On the day of the explosion I was on duty in plain clothes at the House of Detention—I saw Anne Justice leave the prison, and saw Timothy Desmond about 3.0 in the afternoon—I did not speak to him—he was at the corner of St. James's Walk—he joined Anne Justice, and afterwards left her, and came down Short's Buildings towards me—he went up Bridewell Walk, and turned down Corporation Lane—I followed him, but lost sight of him for two or three minutes at the corner of Corporation Lane—I came up on the opposite side to see whether he was gone by Bowling Green Lane, and looked round the corner of Corporation Lane—I saw him coming back, and saw a truck and a barrel about four or five yards behind him, in Corporation Lane—the barrel was about half on and half off the pavement, and the handle stood up, not quite half a yard from the prison wall—he came towards me and turned down Bridewell Walk—the
explosion took place about ten minutes or a quarter of an hour after that—I did not go into Corporation Lane; I was standing at the corner of Bowling Green Lane, near the public-house—I followed Desmond into Short's Buildings—I lost sight of him there, looking to see if Anne Justice was at the corner of St. James's Walk—I turned to the right, to see where he was gone to, but I did not see him—at the time of the explosion I had gone back towards Corporation Lane to look for him—I was fifteen yards from the corner of Corporation Lane, and I was thrown down—I got up and ran to Short's Buildings, and as I got to the corner of, St. James's Walk I saw Ranger—Anne Justice was then running away, and she and Allen were taken into custody—as we were returning to the prison I saw Timothy Desmond running round the corner of Short's Buildings, from St. James's Walk, towards Clerkenwell Green, away from the prison—I stopped him, catching hold of him with my left hand—a person assisted me, and he was taken, with the other prisoners—I had been on duty in plain clothes the best part of the day, and to the best of my belief I had seen O'Keefe come from St. James's Walk, from Short's Buildings, down Bridewell Walk, towards Corporation Lane, between 3 and 4 that afternoon; he was alone.
Cross-examined by MR. STRAIGHT. Q. About what time had you the communication from Ranger? A. About 3.20, and I followed Timothy Desmond directly afterwards, it might be three or four minutes—I then saw him go up Bridewell Walk, and turn to the right, down Corporation Lane—on coming back he turned to the right, round the Jolly Coopers—he had been drinking, but he was not drunk—I did not say before the Magistrate that he pretended to be drunk—I said he was not drunk—there is a urinal opposite the John of Jerusalem.
Cross-examined by MR. M. WILLIAMS. Q. You have spoken to day, as you have always spoken, to the best of your belief, with regard to O'Keefe? A. Yes—I will not positively swear to him; he was charged, discharged, and subsequently taken again.
MR. ATTORNEY-GENERAL. Q. You say that opposite the John of Jerusalem there is a urinal? A. Yes, right opposite, at the corner of Bowling Green Lane—when I saw Timothy Desmond turn back from Corporation Lane, he was not opposite the urinal; he passed on the prison wall side, and I was on the urinal side.
COURT. Q. You had been there all the day, I understand? A. Yes, watching Anne Justice and Allen—both Desmond and Justice could see me—I was in plain clothes—I do not know that they took much notice of me; they were looking down—they saw the same man standing there all day—Desmond had not an opportunity of seeing that I was following him the first time, going up Corporation Lane, but on the second occasion, when I saw the barrel and the truck, he must have seen me—at the distance I was, I did not see anything in the shape of a fusee stuck in the barrel—I was fifty yards from it, or more—there were five or six, perhaps seven men, in uniform, and three in plain clothes—the same men did not perambulate there all day; we changed—I do not know the arrangements that were made with the plain-clothes men.
ISSAC ALLUM . I am a journeyman wheelwright, working at Bucklebury, near Reading. On 13th December I was in London, and had been to the Cattle Show, Islington—I left at 3 o'clock, went and had some refreshment, which took up about twenty minutes, and I went then near Clerkenwell
Detention House, on my way to Blackfriars Bridge—I was in Corporation Lane, and saw a man coming up with a truck, and a barrel in it, towards me—I was going towards Farringdon Street—the man turned the truck to the left, and shot it back against the prison wall—another man then came across the street, and assisted him to take the barrel—he threw a cloth over it, and the truck went on in front of me, down Corporation Lane, whecled by the man who brought it—the barrel was then against the wall—the man who threw the cloth over the barrel crossed the street, and stood at the comer of a court on the opposite side of the road—I passed him as I went on my way, and saw him looking after the truck as it went away—two other men were standing in the court or passage; that I saw as I went by—Barrett was the man who was looking after the truck, and who assisted with the truck, and threw the cloth over the barrel—William Desmond is like one of the men standing in the passage, but I cannot say positively—I was twice before the Magistrate, and on the second occasion I saw Barrett, and identified him—his appearance was then different—when I saw him by the barrel his beard was cut off away from his chin; he had long red whiskers, and a very slight moustache, if any—before the Magistrate, he appeared as if all his face had been shaved about a month previously, and his beard and whiskers were a month old since growing—about two minutes after passing the men, I heard the explosion.
Cross-examined by MR. W. SLEIGH. Q. Do you speak of a court, or a passage? A. Not a covered passage; it merely led to some court.
Cross-examined by MR. GREENE. Q. The 13th December was not a bright day? A. No—it was nearly 4 o'clock when I passed down Corporation Lane—I then saw the men coming towards me from the direction of Corporation Lane—I said, before the Magistrate, that I thought Allen was one of the men, and I think so still—Barrett's hair was cut out under his chin; he had not a beard.
HENRY BIRD . I am a dairyman, of Turnmill Street, Clerkenwell—on 13th December, I was serving milk in Corporation Lane, at Mrs. Parr's, No. 6, and at other houses—it was about 3.45 when I was at Mrs. Parr's—I then saw a truck coming along with three men with it—it was brought about opposite No. 3A, then it was turned round, and backed into the gutter—it came from Bowling Green Lane; but it was in Corporation Lane I first saw it—two men were drawing it, and one walking by the side—the two men turned it half round opposite No. 3A., just past the entrance of St. James's Passage—it was run back into the gutter, and the barrel fell out of itself towards the prison wall—one man spoke with a rough Irish voice to the one with the truck; I thought it was a signal to go on; it was not in English, or I should have understood it, and the truck was taken away by one of the men, back the way it came—one man twisted the barrel round, flung a mackintosh or tarpaulin over it, and walked away—the barrel was then on the pavement, near the wall, but at the edge of the kerb—two men wore there when the tarpaulin was thrown over the barrel; both then crossed the road, and went up St. James's Passage, and I saw no more of them—I was then, I think, at No. 5, Corporation Lane—I saw next a gentleman, in appearance, standing on the pavement by the prison wall—after the man had left the barrel this gentleman walked along by the prison wall till he had passed me, and then he crossed the road—he was not one of the three men—I saw him at the time the others were putting down the barrel at the Woodbridge Street end of Corporation Lane, the opposite end from which the men came—he
was standing still, with both hands in his pockets—after the two men went into St. James's Passage he walked towards the barrel, passed me, and crossed the road, so that I only saw his side face—I never saw his full face—he then re-crossed the road directly, and went to the barrel—he looked at the head of the barrel, as if he were looking for a name or a number—the tarpaulin was across the belly of the barrel, and he could see the head without meddling with the tarpaulin—I saw him then take a fusee or match from his pocket, strike a light, and apply it to the head of the barrel—I saw it light something, and then he pulled the tarpaulin over the light, and walked into the passage opposite—I lost sight of him—I went into Japanner's Yard then, and-served two customers—that yard is at the Woodbridge Street end of Corporation Lane—I think Mr. Crump lives there—I then came out into Corporation Lane again—I had a horse and cart with me; it was standing in the wide part, where three or four turnings meet, at the end of Corporation Lane—I there met the constable Moriarty, and spoke to him—I then went to the cart, and led the horse into Coburg Street—Moriarty walked towards the barrel after I spoke to him, and very shortly, perhaps not more than a minute, the explosion took place—I recognize Barrett as the man that put the light to the barrel—I cannot make any mistake—he was then dressed differently to what he is now—he had a long brown coat down to the calves of his legs, and a high hat—I saw him next at Millbank, when he was differently dressed, and his whiskers were off—he then had a different coat and a grey felt hat with a big brim—on 13th December, he wore long whiskers, which came down here, and had a flush colour on the side of his face, his whiskers were a kind of sand colour, rather fair and long—at Millbank I saw nine or ten men, and I thought at first that O'Neil was the man who fired the barrel—afterwards, when I turned Barrett round, I knew him directly—I saw his side face—I never saw him full face on the 13th December, and I did not recognize him, full face with short whiskers, at Millbank—I recognised him by his side face, and said I was very sorry I had made the mistake, for Barrett was the man and no other—I am now sure Barrott is the man—I have not the slightest doubt whatever—I believe that Timothy Desmond was one of the three men with the truck—I am not positive whether he was wheeling it or alongside it, but he is one of the three who were with it.
Cross-examined by MR. STRAIGHT. Q. Were you examined before the Magistrate? A. Yes; I was examined by the Coronet before I went before the Magistrate—I was at the House of Detention on the Saturday afternoon—I then saw certain persons, whom I identified though I did not say so, because I was very ill at the time, through the explosion, and I did not feel confidence in myself—they asked me if I knew any of them, and I said I did not, but I had an idea—on the 28th, when I was before the Coroner, I believe I said I did not like to swear to any of the men—I was examined twice at Bow Street—the first time was after I had been examined before the Coroner; that was after I had been examined by Sir Thomas Henry, at Bow Street—I did not then say, "Timothy Desmond very much resembles one of the men who was assisting drawing the truck"—I believe I did say that—I went-to Millbank twice, and I saw him there—I also saw him in the dock at Bow Street—there were several witnesses called before I was—on the second occasion, when I was before the Magistrate, I said Timothy Desmond was a man who was with the truck.
Q. Then, on the first occasion, before Sir Thomas Henry, you said he
resembled the man, and on the second you said he was the man? A. I said I believed so; I did not swear it. (The witness's deposition stated; "I saw Timothy Desmond wheeling the truck")—I did not say two minutes ago that he was one of the men walking on the pavement—I will not swear to him, but according to the best of my belief he is one of the men—there were three men with the truck—one went towards Bowling Green Lane; and two of them went up St. James's Passage—Timothy Desmond was one of those who went up St. James's Passage—it was 3.45 when the truck set down the barrel—the explosion took place quite five minutes later.
Cross-examined by MR. GREENE. Q. How many men have you, at different times, identified as the person who lighted the barrel? A. Only one—I did say at Bow Street that William Desmond was like the man who fired the barrel; I said he very much resembled the man, but I felt confident in my own mind he was not the man—he very much resembled him in face, and I believe I used words which led the Magistrate to believe he was the man—I went to Millbank, and saw O'Neil—I first said he was the man—I afterwards said it was Barrett—I did say he had a long beard—he had a long beard at the time he fired the barrel, and long whiskers coming down here—I never saw his chin—I saw his" side-face—O'Neil is not so stout a man as Barrett—he had long carroty whiskers—I believe he had a beard—his hair was about the same colour as his whiskers, but not quite so red; it resembles William Desmond's—the first two persons I said fired the barrel had hair rather differently coloured from that of Barrett, not quite so red—I was near enough to see the flush on Barrett's cheek—the man that crossed over was standing there at the time the men put the barrel down, some distance up on the same side of the way, about twelve yards from the barrel—Barrett did not take the barrel out of the truck—he wore the same clothes at Millbank as he has now, at least I think so—I am positive as to the clothes he wore when he fired the barrel—there were a lot of persons present when I saw Barrett at Millbank—I recognized him directly he turned round, and I altered my decision there and then.
MR. SOLICITOR-GENERAL. Q. Had you a very severe shock by the explosion? A. Yes, and I had not recovered from that on the Saturday.
COURT. Q. Did it affect your memory? A. No; it would not prevent me from identifying—I felt very nervous, and very much frightened—when I saw Timothy Desmond on the Saturday it was in the cell, by gaslight—I was examined before two different Coroners—I was five or six times before one—the prisoners were not present—when I saw the man in Corporation Lane I only saw his half face—he had his hat over his eyes, and his hands in his pockets—when I said Desmond was like the man, I said he was a little stouter—I had not then seen Barrett—at Millbank none of the men were pointed out to me—nine or ten stood round the cell, and I looked at them—I believe O'Neil was the first I picked out—I did not think William Desmond was the man: when I said he resembled him, I wished the Magistrate to understand that he resembled him, though I was not confident he was the man—I might have said I did not believe he was the man—I did not mean him to understand that he was the man—he resembles him in features; I don't think he does resemble him, because one's whiskers were more carroty than the other's.
Q. In your judgment is there any likeness between the two men now? A. Well, I cannot say there is any particular likeness; there is not an unlikeness.
Q. You have spoken of three men; does your evidence come
to any more than this, that if one of those three men is the man, Barrett is the man? A. Barrett is the man—I am certain Barrett is the man, and no other—I believe there was a reward—I saw it on the prison walls on the Sunday after the explosion—I do not think I thought anything about the reward, no more than I do now.
MR. GREENE. Q. Was not Barrett brought out of the cell, and asked his name and age, and then sent back to the cell, and was it not after that you identified him? A. I identified him before he went to the cell; I knew him directly—I did not say I turned him round, he turned himself round, and when I saw his neck and sideface and hair, I identified him at once—I turned O'Neil round—when I went into the cell, after having identified O'Neil, I left the cell without identifying Barrett—I am not sure whether I left the cell—I identified Barrett in the cell, as soon as he turned round—Barrett was not called out of his cell before I identified him—after I identified him I asked to be allowed to see him again—after I had identified him I blieve he went back into his own cell.
COURT. Q. Why did you ask to see him again? A. To make me a little more confident—his whiskers were all off and he looked quite a different man from what he was on the day of the explosion—as soon as he turned round I identified him at once—I asked to see him again, and he was brought out of the cell, and I saw him in the passage—he was not asked any questions, I am quite sure—I never heard his name mentioned.
Q. Had you heard that Barrett and O'Neil had been arrested. A. I heard two had been arrested, but I did not know what their names were—I knew there were two fresh prisoners taken, and I was taken to identify them—I believe it was Barrett, I had not heard who it was, to the test of my recollection.
ELIZABETH CRAWLEY . I am the wife of Mr. Joseph Crawky—on Friday, 13th December last, I was in Corporation Lane, about 3.45, going from the direction of Rosoman Street, in the direction of Woodbridge Street—as I turned into Corporation Lane I saw on the pavement what appeared to me to be a large packing-case, covered over with a cloth—it was close to the prison wall, and opposite the house No. 3a—as I was going along I saw a man standing opposite the package, and close to the front of it—I also saw two little boys standing close beside the barrel—two men were standing at the opposite corner of the street—I saw one of these two throw something from St. James's Passage to the man at the barrel—one of the little boys stooped and picked up something—I am not able to say what it was, I was not close enough—I continued to walk on—I got nearly close to the barrel, and I crossed over to the opposite side of the way to avoid going past it—it occupied nearly the whole of the pavement, and there was not room to pass on that side—when I did pass I saw that it was a barrel, and that there was a squib in the head of it—that squib was burning at the time I saw it—I met a policeman near the house No. 5—he did not quite reach the barrel when the explosion took place—I was blown down by the explosion—the barrel was opposite the house No. 3, and I was blown against the door of No. 5—all my clothes were nearly blown off.
Cross-examined by MR. STRAIGHT. Q. Did you notice whether the men at the end of St. James's Place went down the passage? A. I did not—I have said one of the men standing there was like the man Allen.
Cross-examined by MR. GREENE. Q. Did you not state before the Magistrate that you thought he was the man? A. Yes, from his general
appearance I thought he was the man who threw something towards the man at the barrel—I do not know what became of what was thrown across the street—I saw one of the little boys pick something up directly after.
CHARLES MOSELY . I am getting on for eleven—I lived at 2, Corporation Lane—my father is a watch-spring polisher—on the day before the explosion I was playing in Corporation Lane with a boy named Wheeler—I saw a barrel against the wall of the prison, opposite our house—there was a truck there—I did not see any men there—I went and touched the barrel—after that I saw some men put it in a truck and take it off—there were two or three men—I did not see where they came from—next day I stopped at home from school to mind a child, and after my mother came in I went out to play in Corporation Lane—I went down St. James's Passage—at the end I saw three men standing—as I came down I saw a man throw something like a white ball over the prison wall—when they had done that, they ran up the passage to St. James's Buildings, and round to Rosoman Street—they all three came back again to the corner of the court in Corporation Lane—from our house I can see the prisoners walk round, and I had been in the habit of looking at them—after the men came back I went up stairs to the second floor front room to look at the prisoners, but they were not at exercise that afternoon—I noticed a barrel lying cross ways on the pavement, one end near the wall, one end near the kerb—I did not see any truck with it—after I had seen the barrel, I saw one of the three men who were standing at the corner of the court go to the barrel—he put a squib in the barrel and set a light to it—he struck a match, and it did not light; so he struck another—I did not see where he got it from—two or three little boys were standing beside the barrel—when he struck the second match he set light to the squib in the barrel—the other men were then standing at the corner of the court—these were the same men that I had seen before in the court—I saw a policeman coming from Gloucester Street—he got to about No. 4 when the explosion took place—it knocked me over and injured me, and I knew no more until I was taken out by the fire-escape man, and taken to St. Bartholomew's—I was twice before the Magistrate—I had been to Millbank to see some prisoners. (The Prisoners stood up.)
COURT. Q. Have you seen one of these men before? A. This end one (Barrett); he lit the barrel.
Cross-examined by MR. STRAIGHT. Q. On the 12th you were with your master's cart, weren't you? A. No; I have no master—it was between 11 and 12 when I saw the barrel on the 12th; I am quite sure about that—they took it away on the truck towards Woodbridge Street.
Cross-examined by MR. GREENE. Q. You were examined twice at the police-Court? A. Yes; I did not at first describe the man who lighted the powder—I was then taken to Millbank—the police never gave me any description of the man I was to identify at Millbank—there was a number of men before me, about twenty, and I picked Barrett out—I stated to the Magistrate that my reason for believing Barrett to be the man was that he had little eyes, and they went in—he had a long moustache—he had it shaved off when I saw him.
COURT. Q. What do you mean by a moustache? A. Here (stroking his chin).
MR. GREENE. Q. Did you say anything about his chin? A. I said he had hair on his chin, and long whiskers—his beard came down to about here (below the chin)—I always thought that hair on the upper lip
was whiskers—I was not told anything about the man, or his whiskers, or his eyes, before I saw him—I do not say anything as to the other men.
THOMAS WHEELER . I am going on for 12—I lived at 14, Plummer's Place, Corporation Lane—on the day of the explosion I was playing in the lane with a boy named Charley, about 4 o'clock—I saw a tub on the pavement—two men were on the other side, at the corner of St. James's Passage—I did not see the tub put there—there was a man near it—he put a squib in, and lighted it—one of the other gentlemen on the other side chucked him a box of fusees, and he lit one of those; then he ran away—the first one (Barrett) lit the squib—when the explosion took place I was standing at the corner of Rosoman Street, and I was blown down by the explosion, and had my finger blown off—before the explosion I saw a boy pick up a squib—he picked it up on the pavement beside the tub, and ran away with it.
Cross-examined by MR. STRAIGHT. Q. How long was it from the time you saw the tub to when the explosion took place? A. I don't know; it was not quite, five minutes—I was at the corner of Rosoman Street the whole time.
Cross-examined by MR. GREENE. Q. Did the man who lighted the barrel come up Corporation Lane? A. Yes, and walked straight to the barrel; and then he lighted it—when I identified Barrett it was in the yard at Bow Street—I was taken by a policeman, and told to pick out the man I knew—Barrett was standing by himself—at first I turned away from the man without knowing him; then a policeman took hold of me, and took me back again to look at Barrett.
MR. ATTORNEY-GENERAL. Q. Where was that? A. In the yard at Bow Street—there was more than one man—they were all standing in a row—I do not know how many there was—I saw them all—I looked at Barrett all over, and then said he was the man—I had turned my head away, and the policeman told me to look at them.
COURT. Q. Why did you turn your head away? A. Because I did not like to see them—a policeman told me to pick out the man that I knew, and not to turn my head away—I looked at them three times, and then picked him out—about a quarter of an hour after that I went to Bow Street, and gave my evidence—the man lighted two or three matches before he put the one to the squib—I saw a boy pick up a squib—when I went to Bow Street to see the men I was frightened of them—I was hurt by the explosion.
JOHN SMITH . I am nine years of age, my father is a printer, and works for Messrs. Spottiswoode—on the day of the explosion I was playing with Tommy Wheeler in Corporation Lane—I saw a barrel, and went up and raised the cloth on it—I saw three men up a little court about five minutes after I had lifted up the cloth—one of the men went near the barrel and put a squib in—I saw him light it—one of the men in the passage had thrown him a box of matches—the man at the barrel struck a fusee and lighted the squib—the first squib would not light, and ho threw it down—I ran and picked it up, a woman spoke to me, and I went down towards the public-house—the man that lit the squib ran to the court and went away—the other men also ran—I ran away at the same time—I got just round the prison wall when the explosion occurred, and I fell down two times—I dropped the squib when I got to the Jolly Coopers.
was among them—in the course of that afternoon a white indiarubber ball came over the wall, about two or three minutes after four o'clock—I picked it up, and next day gave it to my children—it came from the end of Corporation Lane close to the end of the exercising yard—I was at the House of Detention as a warder during the time Burke was there—I saw a female, named Barry or Berry, who used to come to see him every day while he was in my charge—she Thought him underclothing and food, and she took dirty things away—it was part of my duty to show her to the cell—it was my duty to search the things that were brought in clean before they were given to Burke—after Burke was in my charge, and before the explosion, I remember Mrs. Barry coming in with some things that had been washed—I went with her to the door of the cell—I examined the things before I delivered them to Burke—I examined a stocking.
MR. GREENE. objected to this evidence and the consideration of it was postponed.
Thursday, April 23rd, 1868.
JOHN DAVIS . I live at 48, King's Cross Road, and am an engineer—on 13th December I was fixing a grating at 7, Corporation Lane, the end house, opposite to the Bell public-house—I heard something, and looking, in the direction of the goal, I saw a cask against the wall—three boys were on one side of it and a man on the other—the man was kneeling down looking at the head of the barrel, with his back towards me—a constable passed down the road, and I then saw fire coming from the barrel—it looked like a squib—the man ran away across the road, as, if he was going up some court—I did not see his face at all—he had a sort of brown overcoat on, a high silk hat, and was of gentlemanly appearance—the policeman turned back towards me, the boys ran away at the same time as the man, towards Bowling-green Lane, I suppose through seeing the fire, and then the explosion took place.
MR. GREENE objected to this evidence, on the ground that it took place in the absence of the prisoners, and that the contents of a letter with secret writing, in it, referred to by Mullany, had not been made evidence, because Mullany could not read writing, and therefore could not know what were the contents of that document.
THE COURT considered that as Mullany had given secondary evidence of the contents of that letter, and that evidence had been received, no objection being taken at the time, the evidence proposed to be submitted by the Attorney-General was admissible, apart from any reference to the letter.
JAMES THOMPSON (continued). After the arrest of Burke I searched him at the station, and found this glass bulb, containing some substance—I delivered it to Dr. Odling, and he returned it to me—I have since given it up, to be returned to Burke—the solicitor applied for it.
Cross-examined by MR. W. SLEIGH. Q. We have heard that a man named Allen was taken into custody, and made two statements; were they subsequently signed? A. He made two statements to me, and one to Mr. Brannan, in reference to persons he had seen on the day of the explosion.
Cross-examined by MR. STRAIGHT. Q. Were you at the prison almost at the time of the explosion? A. I arrived at 3.30, and left at 3.50 or 3, 45—I saw Timothy Desmond, with Anne Justice, at the corner of St. James's
Walk, about 3.30—he looked hard at me and a witness who was with me—I remained in the prison about twenty minutes—when I came out Timothy Desmond was still at the public-house—he came out into the road, and looked into the cab—it was a Hansom cab and a good horse—the witness was still with me, and he made a remark about Timothy Desmond—we drove, in consequence of a communication I had received in the prison, to the nearest police-station, by way of Rosoman Street, and had got sixty or seventy yards past the John of Jerusalem, when the explosion took place—I got out of the cab and ran back—people were running in all directions—I did not see Timothy Desmond.
MR. ATTORNEY GENERAL . Q. When you came out with the person from Birmingham, which road did you take, St. James's Walk? A. I think the name of it is Short's Buildings, by Bridewell Walk, into Rosoman Street, and were about seventy yards up that street when we heard the explosion—the barrel staves found after the explosion we delivered to Dr. Odling.
COURT. Q. When you got into the cab, Timothy Desmond was in front of the prison? A. He was close to the Prince of Wales—he would not have had time to go to where the barrel was, between the time of my coming out of the prison and the explosion—he appeared to be drunk—there was a good horse in the cab, and I directed the cabman to drive with all speed—a person on foot would not go by the same road as a cab; he could get there by a shorter route than the cab; but still I think Desmond had barely time to get to the spot where the barrel was—if he did go there, he must have gone and got back before I returned to the prison after the explosion.
JAMES CAPE (re-examined). Mrs. Barry used to come and see Burke when he was in my charge, bring food, and take away dirty linen and bring clean clothes—I examined the things at the door of the cell, and on one occasion, in one of the stockings, found some pieces of green stuff in the toe—I took those pieces and gave the clothes to Burke—I reported the fact, and gave the green stuff to Moore, the chief warder—I did not inform either Mrs. Barry or Burke that I had taken them out of the stocking.
DR. WILLIAM ODLING . I am a chemist—in December last I received from Moore a small sealed glass bulb, containing crystals—the contents were chloride of gold—no analysis was necessary to enable me to tell what it was, but I applied the necessary tests, to be sure—that salt, dissolved in water, makes characters on paper, which are invisible for some length of time; several hours; but they may be rendered visible by several means—copperas brings them out directly—this note (producing one) represents half the page of such writing brought out by copperas—it was written on Tuesday—the writing is never absolutely invisible, if carefully examined, and held up in a certain light; but it is practically so for a few hours—after the expiration of a sufficient time, the writing on the part not treated by copperas would be as visible as the other, the only difference beings that a yellow stain would show where the copperas solution had been applied—writing with chloride of gold never is quite invisible, the change in the glaze of the paper being seen in certain lights and positions—on the 21st of this month I received a paper parcel from Moore—it
contained green copperas, or sulphate of iron—chloride of gold is easily obtained, as it is used in photography, and its property of secret writing is known to chemists—I only referred to one book, and I found it there—a grain or less in solution would be sufficient to write half-a-dozen lines of a note—soon after the explosion, the staves of a barrel were brought to my laboratory—I saw them on 4th January—the barrel had contained petroleum—on the staves I found sulphate of potash, the chief solid product of the explosion of gunpowder—some of the staves were split, and in the cracks there were unexploded grains of gunpowder, which I removed and exploded—I returned the staves to Inspector Thompson—I infer it was a petroleum barrel from the appearance of the staves, the characteristic smell, and the way in which portions of the wood burnt—there was nothing to warrant the conclusion that the explosion had been produced by petroleum.
JOHN MOORE (re-examined). On the afternoon of 13th December, about 2.50, my attention was attracted by Timothy Desmond and Anne Justice being near the prison—I was inside when the explosion took place—the prisoners usually exercised from 3.15 to 4.15 in the afternoon, some in one exercising yard and some in the other, so as to equalize them—both abut on Corporation Lane—on 13th December there was no separation between them but the open corridor of the prison—up to 13th December Burke exercised at that hour; but on that day the hour was, for certain reasons, altered to the morning—the part of the wall blown down had been a gateway made for the convenience of the contractor who, early in 1866, enlarged the prison—when the work was done, the gateway was taken away, and the wall was made good at the end of 1886—the new part of the wall was visible from inside the prison—there is a house near the prison which has a board, visible from the exercising yard, on which is painted "Noted Stout House"—it can be seen from the exercising ground—Smithers is the landlord; it is the Bell beer-house, in Corporation Lane—Burke was lodged in a cell facing the part of the wall blown down, up to within ten minutes of the time of the explosion—he was then removed to another cell, in accordance with a custom of frequently changing the prisoners' cells—I am present when prisoners are received from the police-courts—I produce warrants of remand, of 7th December, of the prisoners Burke and Casey—on that occasion I escorted the prisoners to Bow Street, having previously handed over the prisoners and the warrants to the inspector of police—I received them back the same evening—they first came to the House of Detention on 23rd November, were remanded to 7th December, and then to 14th December.
Cross-examined by MR. M. WILLIAMS. Q. On the 13th December the prisoners were exercised early? A. Yes, some few hours before Anne Justice visited Casey—they are only exercised once a day—the names of visitors to prisoners appear in the prison book—I don't know, whether Anne Justice had been to the prison before that day.
COURT. Q. What are the visiting hours? A. From 12 to 2 o'clock, and the time of each visitor is limited to twenty minutes—no notice had been given to the prisoners that the exercise in the morning was instead of that which they usually had in the afternoon—no one had told them that they would not also be exercised in the afternoon: even the officers of the prison would not know—they never are exercised twice, so they would have no reason to suppose they would be taken out again—the prison rules state that prisoners shall be exercised daily—we often have prisoners there six or
even twelve months, for want of bail—prisoners do not communicate with each other—there is no hard labour performed in this prison.
JAMES THOMPSON (re-examined). I arrested Burke on the 20th of November, in the evening, in the neighbourhood of Woburn square—a man named Devany was with me to identify Burke—Casey was with Burke, and a scuffle took place, in which Casey into charge for assaulting the police—the charge-sheet was made out in my presence, and I now produce it—I attended before Sir Thomas Henry and gave evidence against Burke and Casey, Who were remanded—these remand warrants are signed by Sir Thomas Henry, they refer to Burke and Casey.
Cross-examined by MR. STRAIGHT. Q. Have you the warrant upon which Burke was arrested? A. No it was a warrant granted in Dublin, and sent to the Metropoliton police for execution—I have not the sworn information on which that warrant was granted. (The warrant was against Burke for Treason felony.)
WILLIAM SCOT . I am a painter—the day after the explosion I was put in charge of house 5 and 7, in corporation Lane—on December 21st, while walking over the bricks and rubbish of the fallen prison wall in the exercising ground, I found a white ball, which I gave to a policeman named Knowles.
HENDRY MORRIS . I live with my father, in Helen`s Place, Deptford, and am eighteen years of age—I was apprended to Mullany, the tailor, in Sherwood Street—I saw there agreat number of times a person whom I knew as Brown—I saw him (Burke) yesterday in Newgate with Inspector Thompson—I heard that he had been arredted—I know Burnett, Lynch, and Ryan—they used to come from time to time Mullany`s house—I know the prisoner English, who used to come there very often—I have seen him there once or twice when Brown was there—they spoke together, I believe; they were in the same same room—I remembar the explosion—some six weeks before that two persons came to Mullany—I knew them as Mr. Jacksonand Mr. Hastings—Barrett is the man who went by the name of Jackson dined there a few times—they together at Mullany`s—I last saw them at Mullany`s the day before the exlosion—I did not see Hastings after that day—on that day they were there between 11 and 1 o`clock, and Hastings dined there—Jackson left before dinner—after dinner Hastings left—on the day of the explosion I did not see either of them in the morning I heard of the explosion that same evening—Mullany was there when the news came, and he got off the board and went out—he returned in about half an-hour into the workshop—soon after a man named pattern came in and asked for some thread and buttons to sew upon his trousers—I had known pattern before that as coming to Mullany`s—he was a tailor—I noticed that a piece of his right ear was off, that his neck had been washed, and the top of his collar was wet—there was blood on the shirt collar and the wound on his ear was fresh—something was said about the way his ear had been hurt—I had not then seen another man—pattern then went into the back room—when pattern came in Mullany was sitting on the board—soon after I took an iron into the back room put him into the fire—I there saw Jackson Pattern, and Mrs. Mullany was also there: he had followed
contained green copperas, or sulphate of iron—chloride of gold is easily obtained, as it is used in photography, and its property of secret writing is known to chemists—I only referred to one book, and I found it there—a grain or less in solution would be sufficient to write half-a-dozen lines of a note—soon after the explosion, the staves of a barrel were brought to my laboratory—I saw them on 4th January—the barrel had contained petroleum—on the staves I found sulphate of potash, the chief solid product of the explosion of gunpowder—some of the staves were split, and in the cracks there were unexploded grains of gunpowder, which I removed and exploded—I returned the staves to Inspector Thompson—I infer it was a petroleum barrel from the appearance of the staves, the characteristic smell, and the way in which portions of the wood burnt—there was nothing to warrant the conclusion that the explosion had been produced by petroleum.
JOHN MOORE (re-examined). On the afternoon of 13th December, about 2.50, my attention was attracted by Timothy Desmond and Anne Justice being near the prison—I was inside when the explosion took place—the prisoners usually exercised from 3.15 to 4.15 in the afternoon, some in one exercising yard and some in the other, so as to equalize them—both abut on Corporation Lane—on 13th December there was no separation between them but the open corridor of the prison—up to 15th December Burke exercised at that hour; but on that day the hour was, for certain reasons, altered to the morning—the part of the wall blown down had been a gateway made for the convenience of the contractor who, early in 1866, enlarged the prison—when the work was done, the gateway was taken away, and the wall was made good at the end of 1886—the new part of the wall was visible from inside the prison—there is a house the prison which has a board, visible from the exercising yard, on which is painted "Noted Stout House"—it can be seen from the exercising ground—Smithers is the landlord; it is the Bell beer-house, in Corporation Lane—Burke was lodged in a cell facing the part of the wall blown down; up to within ten minutes of the time of the explosion—he was then removed to another cell, in accordance with a custom of frequently changing the prisoners' cells—I am present when prisoner are received from the police-courts—I produce warrants of remand, of 7th December, of the Prisoners Burke and Casey—on that occasion I escorted the prisoners to Bow Street, having previously handed over the prisoners and the warrants to the inspector of police—I received them back the same evening—they first came to the House of Detention on 23rd November, were remanded to 7th December, and then to 14th December.
Cross-examined by MR. M. WILLIAMS. Q. On the 13th December the prisoner were exercised early? A. Yes, some few hours before Anne Justice visited Casey—they are only exercised once a day—the names of visitors to prisoner's appear in the prison book—I don't know whether Anne Justice had been to the prison before that day.
COURT. Q. What are the visiting hours? A. From 12 to 2 o'clock, and the, time of each visitor is limited to twenty minutes—no notice had been given to the prisoners that the exercise in the morning was instead of that which they usually had in the afternoon—no one had told them that they would not also be exercised in the afternoon: even the officers of the prison would not know—they never are exercised twice, so they would have no reason to to suppose they would be taken out again—the prison rules state that prisoners shall be exercised daily—we often have prisoners there six or
even twelve months, for want to bail—prisoners do not communicate with each other—there is no hard labour performed in this prison.
JAMES THOMPSON (re-examined). I arrested Burke on the 20th of November, in the evening, in the neighbourhood of Woburn Square—a man named Devany was with me to identify Burke—Casey was with Burke, and a scuffle took place, in which Casey endeavoured to get him away—Burke was taken and Casey followed to Bow street, and I then gave casey into charge for assaulting the police—the charge-sheet was made out in my presence, and I now produce it—I attended before Sir Thomas Henry and gave evidence against burke and Casey, who were remanded—these remand warrants are signed by Sir Thomas Henry, they refer to Burke and Chasey.
Cross-examined by MR. STRAIGHT. Q. Have you the warrant upon which Burke was arrested? A. No, it was a warrant granted in Dublin, and send to the Metropolitan Police for execution—I have not the sworn information on which that warrant was granted. (The warrant was against Burke for Treason Felony.)
WILLIAM SCOTT . I am a painter—the day after the explosion I was put in charge of houses 5 and 7, in Corporation Lane—on December 21st, while walking over the bricks and rubbish of the fallen prison wall in the exercising ground, I found a white ball, which I gave to a policeman named Knowles.
HENRY MORRIS . I live with my father, in Helen's Place, Deptford, and am eighteen years of age—I was apprenticed to Mullany, the tailor, in Sherwood Street—I I saw a great number of times a person whom I knew as brown—I saw him(Burke) yesterday in Newgate with Inspector Thompson—I—heard that he had been arrested—I know Burnett, Lynch, and Ryan—they used to come from time to time to Mullany's house—I know the prisoner English, who used to come there very often—I have seen him there once or twice when Brown was there—they spoke together, I believe; they were in the same room—I remember the explosion—some six weeks before that two persons came to Mullany—I knew them as Mr. Jackson and Mr. Hasting—Barrett is the man who went by the name of Jackson—they came very often—Hastings used to dime there every day, and Jackson dined there a few times—they were together at Mullany's—I last saw them at Mullany's the day before the explosion—I did not see Hasting after that day—on that day they were there between 11 and 1 o'clock, and Hasting dined there—Jackson left before dinner—after dinner Hasting left—on the day of the explosion I did not see either of them in the morning—I heard of the explosion that same evening—Mullany was there when the news came, and he got of the board and went out—he returned in about half an-hour into the workshop—soon after a man named Patten came in and asked for some thread and buttons to sew upon his trousers—I had known Patten before that as coming to Mullany's—he was a tailor—I noticed that a piece of his right ear was off, that his neck had been washed, and that the top of his collar was fresh—something was said about the way his ear had been hurt—I had not then seen another man—Patten then went into the back room—when Patten came in Mullany was sitting on the board—soon after I took an iron into the back room to put it into the fire—I there saw Jackson, Patten, and Mrs. Mullany—Mr. Mullany was also there he had followed
Patten in before I went in—Jackson was washing his neck, wchih was black—Mullany stayed five or ten, minutes, and then came back and sat on his board—I remained only two minutes in the room—Patten had changed his clothes when he first came into the workshop: he came from the back room—he had a different suit of clothes on to any that I had ever seen him in before—I think Jackson had a different pair of trousers on, but I cannot be sure—when Jackson was washing his neck he had his coat and waistcoat off and his whiskers were the same as they had always been—at the time I knew him he had whiskers coming down the side of his face—I did not see Jackson again after that night till he was taken into custody; I then saw him at the station in King Street, Westminster; he then had on a different dress, and his whiskers had been shaved off—I knew a Mrs. Barry or Berry, who used to come to Mullany's before the explosion, soon after the arrest of Mr. Brown—I heard a man named Burnet say that Brown was arrested—I never after that saw Brown at Mullany's—the black on Jackson's neck seemed like gunpowder or soot; it did not look to be dirt, but it was smutted on as if it had blown from a chimney or gun—I have played with gunpowder.
Cross-examined by MR. KEOGH. Q. How long Have you been apprenticed to Mullany? A. Two years—I believe the last time I saw Burke there was the latter end of last summer—I cannot say how often I saw him there—English was very frequently there; almost every day—the last tame I saw him was probably a week or a fortnight before the explosion—I have seen English there while Burke was there, I believe, but cannot say for certain, or whether they spoke.
Cross-examined by MR. GREENE. Q. were you examined on 20th January, at Bow Street, the first time? A. Yes; the only time I was examined there my master was in the dock, and on the next occasion he gave evidence—Barrett always went by the name of Jackson at my master's house—I identified him two days before I went to Bow Street—I went to Scotland Yard and saw Inspector Williamson—I first gave information to the police, by my father's persuasion, at the Greenwich station house—I saw the placards about the reward at Bow Street, the day after my master was taken—I first went to Scotland Yard about 16th or 17th January—my father did not say anything to me about the reward—he went with me to Scotland Yard and to King Street police-station—I identified Barrett amongst a number of other persons—I was only told to pick out all I knew—jackson, when I first knew him, wore only long whiskers coming down to a point, no beard, and no moustache—when I went into the back room, on the evening of the explosion, Mrs. Mullany was folding up a bundle—it was between 5 and 7 o'clock in the evening—we take tea at 4.30 or 5 o'clock, in the back room, and this might lie a quarter, or half an hour after tea—that day Mullany took his tea on the board, I think—I don't know whether it was after tea or just before that Mullany went out for half an hour—I believe he went out at 8 o'clock, or between 8 and 9.
MR. SOLICITOR-GENERAL. Q. After the explosion did you remain at Mullany's? A. On Christmas Eve my father came and took me away home to Deptford—I have been living with him since—it was while I was with my father that he persuaded me to go to the police—I had told him what I had seen—I was afraid to go myself for there had been two attempts to do away with me—he persuaded me to go to the station directly I had told him What I had seen, and next day I went to Scotland Yard—I saw Jackson in the prison cell, Barrett is the person.
MR. GREENE. Q. Did you state to Magistrate that one of the workmen asked your master what was the matter with the man whose ear was bleeding? A. Yes, and he said that it had been bitten off—there was two or three men and a woman; Mrs. Koeppl; in the room—that was after Patten had left.
JANE KOEPPL . I am the wife of Henry Koeppl, a tailor, and "worked for Mulltany some time, before the, explosion, in his shop, the front room first floor—I knew English from his coming to Mullany`s several times—I saw William Desmond there once—I knew Barrett there under the name of Jackson—I first saw him, I think, about a month or five weeks before the explosion—he used to be there three or four times a week—I have talked to him at times—I knew a man called Hastings at Mullany's—he often took his meals there—I dined at the same table with him, in the back room—I last saw Hastings, I think on the Monday before the explosion—but I saw Jackson once after that, I don't know the day—I saw Mrs. Berry or Berry there several times—she used to come to see Hastings, she had never been to my knowledge before Hastings came—I did not see any of them after the explosion took place—I remember a person called Brown or Winslow coming to Mullany's—I first knew him as Winslow, and then I was told he was Brown—he first came in the early part of the summer, and he was introduced to me as winslow by Mullany—afterwards I heard Brown spoken of and I asked who Brown was, and then I was told by Mullany that Winslow was Brown—I heard of his beeing arrested, and I saw him yesterday in Newgate—he was not at Mullany's after I heard of his arrest—I remember hearing of the explosion—on the afternoon of that day. I was at work at Mullany's—young Morris was there—a man named patten came in from the back room—I had seen him several times before, both in the street and at Mullany's—his ear was bleeding when he came in—he asked me for a needle and thread to sew on a button—I gave them to him, and he went into the back room—young Morris then went into the back room, either to put an iron on or take one off—that was about 5 or 5.30 in the afternoon—we had not had a tea—I am not sure whether the gas was alight or not—I have not seen Patten since that afternoon—on the same evening, as coming from a public-house at the corner—Mullany came across the road and spoke to me—I asked him for some money—he said he must get some change, and asked me to go into a public-house with him—I went in and Barrett came in with us to the Welsh Stores at the corner of Warwick Street, Mullany got some change, and gave me some money, 2s. 6d. I think, and some bandy, and water, and Barrett had a glass of his own—we remained about five minutes—till that time his whiskers came down his chin; but then his face was clean-shaved and he was dressed differently—he used to wear a long blue Chesterfield outside coat with side pockets; but that night he had on a short jacket—I did not known him till he spoke—I remarked the change in his appearance to myself, but I did not say anything to him about it—I left Barrett and Mullany together at the corner of Warwick Street—I saw him next morning, about 9 o'clock, passing through Sherwood Street, and then I did not see him again till I saw him in custody at Bow Street—his beard was then growing again—I am certain Barrett is the man I knew as Jackson—I knew a man called Lynch at Mullany's also Felix Fallon and Quin; but I have not seen any of them since the explosion—I knew Ryan; I saw him there three or four times a week and the last time I saw him was the night Mullany was taken into custody.
Cross-examined by Mr.W. SLEIGH. Q. On the one occasion that you saw William Desmond at Mullany's was Mullany at home? A. No—his hair and whiskers are the same now—I knew Captain Murphy at Hastings—he had a large brown beard and moustache, which were turning grey.
Cross-examined by MR. KEOGH?. Q. When was the last time you saw English at Mullany's? A. It might have been a fortnight before the explosion.
Cross-examined by MR. GREENE. Q.. Have you been some time employed at Mullany's? A. Nearly two years—I was taken to the Home Office the Saturday after Mullany gave his evidence—I first saw Barret again in the dock at Bow Street after my master tuned approver—I received instructions at the Home Office to go to Bow Street—I told the policeman at the door I was witness, and I was admitted—I had not then seen Barrett since the explosion—the prisoners at the bar were in the dock, and two more men—I recognized Barrett in the dock, and stated so to the gentleman who was examining me—Jackson, when at Mullany's wore long whiskers, but neither beard nor moustache—on the night of the explosion Patten came in, as near as I can remember, about 5 or 5.30 o'clock, we had not had tea—I am sure it was not between 3.30 and 4, it was later—I am not sure whether the gas was alight or not, or whether Mullany was in the shop or in the back room—we were working—Mullany did not leave the workshop for half an hour before Patten came in—I did not see Barrett at Mullany's house that evening—Mulany said, after Patten had gone, that he had been fighting—my master saw him with his ear cut, because I heard him speak of it; he went into the back room when Patten was there, and to the best of my belief he was there when Patten came—I left the house 8 o'clock—when I last saw them Mullany and Barrett were very drunk—it does not take more than a minute to walk from my master's house to where I met him and the other man—a Chesterfield is as long as a frock coat, it comes down near the knees.
MR. ATTORNEY GENERAL . Q. Did you say anything about this till you were sent for. A. No, I saw Mr. Pollard at the Home Office—I read Mullanys's evidence in the newspapers before I went to the Home Office—Mullany wrote to me from Millhauk, and I went some days after, but he was not there; he had been removed—I then went to Scotland Yard, from there to King Street station, and after that I went to the Home Office—I saw Mullany at King Street, but none of the other prisoners—I then went to the Home Office, or Treasury, and told them what I knew—I gave my evidence at Bow Street, and I saw two men in the dock who I think were Allen and O'Neil.
COURT. Q. When Jackson came to Mullany's did he come to the shop where you were all at work. A. Sometimes—he used to converse with the work people—we dined, two or three times times at the same table—I conversed with him as an acquaintance at the Welsh Stores—I have not heard Barrett speak since he has been in custody, so I do not recognize him by his voice—I do not remember what we conversed about at the Welsh Stores—I did not mention his name—I conversed with Mullany, but not about the evidence he wished me to give; he asked me if I remembered such things, and I said "Yes" or "No"—Sergeant Bell was present, I did not see him alone.
JOHN JOSEPH CORYDON . I was in the Federal Army of the United States, at first as a private, and them as officer—I am an Irishman—I was intimately acquainted with Burke—I knew him by the name of Winslow—I
first knew him in 1862, in the American Army, and continued to know him up to the time of his arrest—I first knew him as Winslow in May, 1866—I was a Fenian, and attended Fenian meetings in America—I knew Burke as one—when I was in Liverpool, in 1866, with Winslow, I was there as a Fenian—I had left Ireland lest I should be arrested—I was sent there by the Fenian organization—Winslow was there purchasing arms for the Fenian Brotherhood—I last saw him there just before the Chester rising, which took place on 11th February, 1867—Burke was first a private, and then a captain, in the 15th New York Engineers, that was the highest rank he got in the Army.
JOSEPH BUNCE (Police Constable). I know John O'Keefe, William Desmond, Timothy Desmond, and Nicholas English—I have seen them at Cavanagh's public-house, in Pollen Street—I had seen English nightly at that house for six weeks before the explosion—on the night of the explosion I saw O'Keefe and English at Cavanagh's, between 9 and 10 o'clock—a man named Dan M'Carthy was with them—when the two brothers Casey came in, English patted them on the back, and I heard O'Keefe say to them, "I saw the two b—slops by the public-house, and I got afraid, and ran away"—on Sunday, 15th December, at 1 o'clock in the morning, I arrested O'Keefe for being concerned in the outrage at Clerkenwell—he gave some account as to where he was, and upon inquiries being made, he was discharged—he was re-arrested on 19th December upon the charge of treasonfelony—I found some cards on him—he said, "This man (alluding to Sergeant Cole, who was with me) had me a few days ago; I got turned up for that, and I shall soon get turned up for this"—on the same night, the 19th, I was with Cole, at Cavanagh's. and assisted in taking English and Mullany into custody.
Cross-examined by MR. W. SLEIGH. Q. While you were watching at Cavanagh's, did you notice that it was visited by artizans of different kinds? A. Principally tailors and shoemakers.
Cross-examined by MR. KEOGH. Q. Do you know where English lives? A. Yes, at 8, Pollen Street, directly opposite Cavanagh`s—I was watching Cavanagh's five or six weeks previous to the explosion—it is a place of call for tailors, principally Irish—I did not Watch it during the tailors strike—I don't know that it was a place of call at that time.
Cross-examined by MR. M. WILLIAMS. Q. It is a fact, is it not, that the first time O'Keefe was taken into custody, it was in reference to the Clerkenwell matter? A. Yes—the second time was for treason-fellony; that was on the 19th.
Cross-examined by MR. GREENE. Q. The first time he was arrested was he discharged? A. Yes.
JOHN HALL . I am a sub-warder of the House of Detention—it is my duty to keep a book to enter the names of the persons who come to see the prisoners—I produce it—on 13th December I have entered the name of Anne Justice; the entry is my writing—she gave me the information which I entered—(Read: Visitors' name, "Anne Justice;" Prisoner's name, "J.F. Casey;" Relation or friend, "aunt;" Address,"7, Pulteney Street, Oxford Street")—that is the only entry—that was the only time, as for as I know, that she was there.
Cross-examined by MR. W. SLEIGH. Q. on the one occasion that you saw William Desmond at Mullany's, was Mullany at home? A. No—his hair and whiskers are the same new—I knew Captain Murphy at Hastings—he had a large brown beard and moustache, which were turning grey.
Cross-examined by MR. KEOGH. Q. When was the last time you saw English at Mullany's? A. It might have been a fortnight before the explosion.
Cross-examined by MR. GREENE. Q. Have you been some time employed at Mullany's? A. Nearly two years—I was taken to the Home Office the Saturday after Mullany gave his evidence—I first saw Barrett again in the dock at Bow street after my master turned approver—I received instructions at the Home Office to go to Bow Street—I told the policeman at the door I was a witness, and I was admitted—I had not then seen Barrett since the explosion—the prisoners at the bar were in the dock, and two more men—I recognized Barrett in the dock, and stated so to the gentleman who was examining me—Jackson when at Mullany's wore long whiskers, but neither beard nor moustache—on the night of the explosion Patten came in, as near as I can remember, about 5 or 5.30 o'clock, we had not had tea—I am sure it was not between 3.30 and 4, It was later—I am not sure whether the gas was alight or not, or whether Mullany was in the shop or in the back room—we were working—Mullany did not leave the workshop for half an hour before Patten came in—I did not see Barrett at Mullany's house that evening—Mullany said, after Patten had gone, that he had been fighting—my master saw him with his ear cut, because I heard him speak of it; he went into the back room when Patten was there, and to the best of my belief he was there when, Patten came—I left the house about 8 o'clock—when I last saw them Mullany and Barrett were very drunk—it does not take more than a minute to walk from my master's house to where I met him and the other man—a chesterfield is as long as a frock coat, it comes down near the knees.
MR. ATTORNEY GENERAL . Q. Did you say anything about this till you were sent for. A. No, I saw Mr. Pollard at the Home Office—I read Mulany's evidence in the newspapers before I went to the Home office—Mullany wrote to me from Millbank, and I went some days after, but he was not there; he had been removed—I then went to Scotland Yard, from there to King Street station, and after that I went to the Home office—I saw Mullany at King Street, but none of the other prisoners—I then went to the Home Office, or Treasury, and told them what I knew—I gave my evidence at Bow street, and I saw two men in the dock who I think were Allen and o'Neil.
COURT. Q. When Jackson came to Mullany's did he came to the shop where you were all at work. A. Sometimes—he used to converse with the work people—we dined, two or three times at the same table—I conversed with him as an acquaintance at the Welsh Stores—I have not heard Barrett speak since he has been in custody, so I do not recognize, him by his voice—I do not remember what we conversed about at the Welsh Stores—I did not mention his name—I conversed with Mullany, but not about the evidence he wished me to give; he asked me if I remembered such things, and I said "Yes" or "No"—Sergeant Bell was present, I did not see him alone.
JOHN JOSEPH CORYDON . I was in the Federal Army of the United States, at first as a private, and then as officer—I am an Irishman—I was intimately acquainted wit Burke—I knew him by the name of Winslow—I
first knew him in 1862, in the American army, and continued to know him up to the time of his arrest—I first knew him as winslow in may, 1866—I was a fenian, and attended fenian meetings in America—I knew burke as one—when I was in Liverpool, in 1866, with winslow, I was there as a fenian—I had left Ireland lest I should be arrested—I was sent there by the feninan organization—winslow was there purchasing arms for the fenian brotherhood—I last saw him there just before the chester rising, which took place on 11th February, 1867—burke was first a private, and then a captailn, in the 15th new york engineers, that was the highest rank he got in the army.
JOSEPH BUNCE (police constable). I know john O'keefe, William desmond, timothy desmond, and Nicholas English—I have seen them at cavanagh's public-house, in pollen street—I had English nightly at that house for six weeks before the explosion—on the night of the explosion I saw O'keefe and English at cavanagh's, between 9 and 10 o'clock—a man named dan M'carthy was with them—when the two brothers casey came in, English patted them on the back, and I heaved O'keefe say to them, "I saw the two b——slops by the public-house, and I got afraid, and ran away"—on Sunday, 15th December, at 1 o'clock in the morning, I arrested O'keefe for being concerned in the outrage at clerkenwell—he gave some account as to where he was, and upon inquiries being made, he was discharged—he was re-arrested on 19th December upon the charge of treasonfelony—I found some cards on him—he said, "This man (alluding to sergeant cole, who was with me) had me a few days ago; I got turned up for that, and I shall soon get turned up for this"—on the same night, the 19th, I was with cole, at cavanagh's, and assisted in taking English and mullany into custody.
Cross-examined by MR. W. WLEIGH. Q. while you were watching at cavanagh's did you notice that it was visited by artisans of different kinds? A. principally tailors and shoemakers.
Cross-examined by MR. KEOGH. Q. do you know where English lives? A. yes, at 8, pollen street, directly opposite cavanagh's—I was watching cavanagh's five or six weeks previous to the expolsion—it is a place of call for tailors, principally Irish—I did not watch it during the tailors strike—I don't know that it was a place of call at that time.
Cross-examined by MR. M. WILLIAMS. Q. It is a fact, is it not that the first time O'keefe was taken into custody, it was in refernce to the clerkenwell matter? A. Yes—the second time was for treason-felony; that was on the 19th.
Cross-examined by MR. GREENE. Q. the first time he was arrested was he discharged? A. Yes.
JOHN HALL . I am a sub-warder of the house of detention—it is my duty to keep a book to enter the names of the persons who come to see the prisoners—I produce it—on 13th December I have entered the name of anne justice; the entry is my writing—she gave me the information which I entered—(read: visitors' name, "anne justice;" prisoner's name, "J. F. casey;" relation or friend, "aunt;" address, "7, pulteney street, Oxford street")—that is the only entry—that was the only time, as far as I know, that she was there.
PATRICK MULLANY (re-examined). I know English well, he was in the habit of coming to my house—he is lame; he has a halt; he got his leg broke some time ago—sometimes he can walk better than others, still I believe he has a halt—I never knew Vaughan to know him till I saw him at Bow Street police-court, and I asked there who he was that sat there prosecuting—Burke has called at my house a few times, I think it was last summer—I met him once, he asked me to make him some clothes, and he called at my house—I was not in the habit of attending the Fenian meetings frequently—I never saw Barrett at any of them, I never saw him any where till the time he came to London before the explosion with Captain Murphy—Murphy, when he introduced him to me, said that he had come from Glasgow to do something for Burke—he said they had both come from Glasgow—he said, "He is a friend of mine, Mr. Jackson, we have arrived from Glasgow"—I think that was as near as possible what he said—that was all he told me about Jackson—I cannot rocollect whether I was at Cavanagh's on the Sunday evening after the explosion—I never was in a private room at Cavanagh's—I was not in a private room there on the Sunday after the explosion, with English, William Desmond, and Vaughan; I am quite sure of that—I recollect now, I was in the private bar, and English, Desmond, and other persons were on the other side, about four or five yards round from me, not with me at all—I was in company with a lady—if I saw Vaughan there I might not know him—when I am in a public-house I take no notice of them—he might be there, but I took no notice of him.
This closed the case for the Prosecutions. THE LORD CHIEF JUSTICE having intimated that the case against ANNE JUSTICE was slight, the ATTORNEY GENERAL withdrew the case as to her, and a Verdict of ACQUITTAL was taken.
Friday, April 24th, 1868.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL stated that as he did not consider the evidence against O'Keefe was sufficient, he should not press the charge against him .
ALEXANDER CHISHOLM (re-examined). At the time I arrested Barrett I arrested a man named O'Neil, he was discharged—it was not with reference to this charge that he was arrested, it was for firing a pistol—I arrested them a second time at their lodging, and they were kept in custody till they were sent up to London.
MR. GREENE called the following Witnesses for Barrett:—
MICHAEL MCNULTY . I am a boot and shoemaker, living in Glasgow—I know Barrett—I have seen him three times in Glasgow, and once in gaol, last night—he was introduced to me on Thursday evening, 12th December, by a man named Mullen, whom I knew personally—I had never seen him till then—Mullen asked me to sole and heel and welt a pair of boots for the gentleman, mentioning his name—I said I would, and promised to have them done the next evening—Barrett came the next evening for them—I had not touched them, and he asked me the reason; I told him I was in too big a hurry with my own work—he asked when I would have them done, and I promised to have them done next day—next day he came, about 2.55, on the Saturday—the boots were not then touched—he called me any thing but a gentleman, and if it were not on account of Mr. Mullen I actually would have put him and the boots out of the house; at least I would have
ordered him out anyhow, but just as he cooled down a little bit, two acquaintances of mine came in; shoemakers—I asked one of them to do me a favour, to sole, heel and welt a pair of boots—he asked whet I wanted them done—I said between 6 and 7 that evening—one said he could not do the boots in that time; when the other man (Welsh) said he would do one—they both sat down to do the boots, and got them done between 6 and 7 o'clock—Barrett sent out for an evening paper while the boots were doing, by my little boy—he sat in the left window of my shop, and read the paper about the explosion which happened in London, and I heard it read by him—it was not the first I had heard of the explosion—I heard of it on the Saturday morning—he remained till the boots were finished, and took them away with him—Mullen, I believe, has gone to America—Barrett then about three or four day's beard on him—I never saw him since till I saw him yesterday evening in the gaol—a man named Captain McCaul called on me and asked whether I knew a man named O'Neil, Barrett, or Jackson—McManus came first, and asked me if I remembered soling the boots for the gentleman—he showed me a letter, and I gave him some information, after hearing it real.
Cross-examined by MR. ATTORNEY-GENERAL. Q. Where do you live in Glasgow? A. In Bridgegate Street, a short way up the green—I have not a shop—I work for a shop, and for anybody that will fetch me a job to do I draw my work from shops—I work for Mr. Johnson and Mr. David Mahon—those are the only shops—there is on name on the door—Mullen was a shoemaker—he worked for a man named Neeson—I don't know what street Neeson lives in, because I have no acquaintance with the man—I have lived in Glasgow fifteen or sixteen years—I knew where he lived about ten months ago—he manufactures for shops—I had known Mullen about twelve months as a shoemaker.
COURT. Q. Where was Neeson's shop ten months ago? A. At the foot of Stockwell—Mullen brought Barrett to me because, he, was a peg worker for Neeson, and could not do any jobs that did not go through his master's hands—he worked at Neeson's shop.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL Q. When did you last see Mullen? A. About the beginning of January, the 2nd or 3rd—I saw him at a soiree and ball—not a Fenian ball—he was a married man with a family and lived in cannonreach Street—he had a house of his own, I don't know the number—I have not seen him since that night—when Mullen brought Barrett first, there was no one with me—Barrett came alone next day, also the following day—no one was present except my little boy, who is between, five and six years of age—on the Saturday I was alone when he came for boots—the soiree and ball was at the Bell Hotel, Trongate, Glasgow—Barrett was in my shop between ten and fifteen minutes before the two shoemakers came in—he was not calling me "no gentleman" all that time, I was calling him something as well—he said I was no man at all, I said I was as good a man as he was, and that if it were not for Mullen I would throw him and his boots down the stairs—they were lying on the floor touched—I might have met Mullen after the 2nd or 3rd January, but am not sure—they were side-spring boots, they were lying alongside my seat when the two men came in, about 3.10 or 3.15—Barrett was to stop till the boots were finished, and he sat there the whole time on a chair by the side of the window, reading and smoking—I was very much engaged doing work, and in a great hurry to get it done, or I should not have got my money, as the shops shut at 8.30—he went away between 6 and 7—I got 4s. 6d. for the boots—Mullen paid me
for them that evening, in a public-house in my own street, the name of which I do not know—the two journeymen shoemakers' names are Peak and Welsh—no one else was in the room but those two men, myself, and Barrett, when they did this work—my wife might have come in with a light for the pipe, but nobody else—I did not give Mullen a receipt for the money—I heard to my sorrow that Mullen had gone to America, for I was bail for him to a loan office for 5l.—Captain McCaul called on me, I think, on the Sunday, after O'Neil and Barrett were taken—I knew Q'Neil, but I did not know, where he lived—I had known him between six and eight months—when Captain McCaul called on me I did not know that the two men had been taken to London—McManus called three, or four days after Captain McCaul came the first time—I did not say to Captain McCaul that I had never repaired any boots for Barrett, nor did I remember any man coming to my house about the time to get boots "bottoned"—he never made use of the word "bottomed" to me, but "buttoned"—he asked me if I remembered a man kicking up a row about boots being "buttoned"—I never "buttoned" boots, and I did not understand what Captain McCaul meant—he did not mention the name of Barrett when he talked about "buttoning" boots—I said I knew neither Barrett nor Jackson, but I knew Q'Neil—I said no man came back and kicked up a row when he found his boots unbuttoned—I did not tell him that no man fetched in a newspaper and read the account of the Clerkenwell outrage—I said that O'Neil had fetched in a paper on the Saturday morning, containing an account of the Clerkenwell outrage—he did not read it; he only asked me if I had heard tell of it, and I said not—Captain McCaul never asked me whether I had soled, heeled, and welted a pair of boots for a man—I did not tell Captain McCaul that no man came and kicked up a row whem he found his boots were not done, or read out of a newspaper an account of the Clerkenwell outrage.
Q. Did you tell Captain McCaul that no man came to you with work which you had to got two men to assist you in doing? A. I did not say work, I said that I never buttoned any boots since I had been in that house—I told him that I did not know a man named Hughes, a publican; nor did I know such a man—I told him that I never knew any other shoemaker of my name in my street, and not in Glasgow—I am an Irishman, and have lived in Scotland fifteen or sixteen years—McManus asked me if I remembered "bottoming" or repairing a pair of boots—I said I did not remember at that time—McManus read a paper which told him to go to a man named James Mullen—I believe McManus has the letter—it was brought to me three or four days after McCaul came—I cannot tell whether this is the letter; as I did not have it in my hand; he read it to me, I heard Barrett's name at the bottom of it; as far as I could understand he read the whole of it—(Letter read:—"Millbank Prison, London, Jan. 24, 1868—My dear friend, you will be very much grieved to hear the serious reverse that has befallen me lately, the cause of which I am as ignorant of as yourself; nevertheless, I have got into the meshes of the law, and when once fairly entangled, it is no easy matter to get extricated. It is needless to enter into details, as now you will have learned all the particulars through the public press. I wish you to go to Mr. James Mullen, who will take, you to a shoemaker named McNulty, in Bridgegate Street; mention my name, and see if he remembers doing a little work for me at the time this crime, of which I am supposed to be the author, was committed; if not, mention the few following incidents, namely, that I am the
party who waited on him on three different occasions to have my boots bottomed—first on Thrusday, then again on Friday, when he promised them on Saturday and I found they were not done I kicked up a row with him, and that then two men set to work on them, and during the time they were working I sent out for the Evening Post and read an account of the Clerkenwell explosion, which was the first they had heard of it. I think this should bring the matter quite clearly to their remembrance. Tell McNulty, if these two men have left him, to find them out, and also who the other parties were that were in the place at the time. I wish you to go to my old lodgings at once, and take anything of mine that is there out of it, and if you can, send me a change of under-clothing, there is nothing I want more. P.S.—Will you please send me the red Urimean shirt that you will find in my lodgings, and drawers are what I need most; you will also find some collars, of which I would like you to send me a few. You may rest assured we are in a miserable enough condition, being without friends or acquanatances to do anything for us. Now please not to neglect what I have told you to do; write at once. Of course all letters are read by the Governor. I would also wish you to send me a pair of Stockings. See Mr. Lewis at once. Mr. Mullen will bring you to him; he will also bring you to my old lodgings. I hope that you at least do not accuse me of being guilty of this charge. Please to write by return").
Q. Now, I ask you whether, before McManus came to you with that letter, Captain McCaul did not expressly ask you whether you had not repaired boots for Barrett; whether a man had not come to your house about that time to get boots bottomed had kicked up a row when he found them still undone; whether you had not got two men to do them, and whether the man did not send out for a newspaper, and read an account of the Clerkenwell outrage while the work was being done? A. Captain McCaul came on a Sunday, and led me completely astray by talking of "buttoning" instead of "bottoning"—I told him that O'Neil had fetched in a newspaper between 10 and 12 on Saturday morning—O'Neil brought in a paper, and left it in my shop on Saturday morning, and my little boy carried it upstairs—he did not read from it about the explosion—he asked me if I had heard of it, and I said, "No"—I was too busy to read anything about it—I came up from Glasgow on Monday night, with McManus and six others—I, McManus, and the two shoemakers saw Barrett last night in prison—he work in Glasgow a stiff billycock hat and darkish clothes—I believe the jacket he has on now is the one he wore then—I did not assist in getting up a subscription for the men at Manchester—I never saw Barrett before—O'Neil used to bring tea to my house every week.
MR. GREENE. Q. You say you saw Barrett last evening in the gaol: were there any other persons with him? A. Yes—I did not count how many there were: there were a good few of them, perhaps a dozen or so; many there might perhaps be one or two more or less—they were walked round, and I picked him out as the man who had been in my shop—some of the officers of the gaol were there—I do not know whether the Governor was or not—I do not keep a shop in Glasgow—my work is mostly making men's boots—I do not work for wholesale places—I work for a custom shop only, and sometimes you cannot get enough from the custom shop to keep you going—it is mostly shop work I do for Neason—I sometimes get two lodgers, and sometimes none at all—they are always shoemakers that I do have—the public houses in Glasgow have the names of the persons who keep them
for them that evening, in a public-house in my own street, the name of which I do not know—the two journeymen shoemakers' names are Peak and Welsh—no one else was in the room but those two men, myself, and Barrett, when they did this work—my wife might have come in with a light for the pipe, but nobody else—I did not give Mullen a receipt for the money—I heard to my sorrow that Mullen had gone to America, for I was bail for him to a loan office for 5l.—Captain McCaul called on me, I think, on the Sunday, after O'Neil and Barrett were taken—I knew O'Neil, but I did not know where he lived—I had known him between six and eight months—when Captain McCaul called on me I did not know that the two men had been taken to London—McManus called three or four days, after Captain McCaul came the first time—I did not say to, Captain McCaul that I had never repaired any boots foe Berrett, nor did I remember any man coming to my house about the time to get boots," bottomed"—he never made use of the word "bottomed" to me, but "buttoned"—he asked me if I remembered a man kicking up a row about boots being "buttoned"—I never "buttoned" boots, and I did not understand what Captain McCaul meant—he, did not mention the name of Barrett when he talked about "buttoning" boots—I said I knew neither Barrett nor Jackson, but I knew O'Neil—I said up man came back and kicked up a row when he found his boots, unbuttoned—I did not tell him that no man fetched in a newspaper and read the Account of the Clerkenwell outrage—I said that O'Neil had fetched in a paper on the Saturday morning, containing an account of the Clerkenwell outrage—he did not read it; he only asked me, if I had heard tell of it, and I said not—Captain McCaul never asked me whether I had soled, heeled, and welted a pair of boots for a man—I did not tell Captain McCaul that no man came and kicked up a row whon he found his boots were not done, or read out of a newspaper an account of the Clerkenwell outrage.
Q. Did you tell Captain, McCaul that no man came to you with work which you had to get two men to assist you in doing? A. I did not say work, I said that I never buttoned any boots since I had been in that house—I told him that I did not know a man named Hughes, a publican; nor did I know such a man—I told him that I never knew any other shoemaker of my name in my street, and not in Glasgow—I am an Irishman, and have lived in Scotland fifteen or sixteen years—McManus asked me if I remembered "bottoming" or repairing a pair of boots—I said I did not remember at that time—McManus read a paper which told him to go to a man named James Mullen—I believe McManus has the letter—it was brought to me three or four, days after McCaul came—I cannot tell whether this is the letter; as I did not have it in my hand; he read it to ma, I heard Barrett's name at the bottom of it; as far as I could understand he read the whole of it—(Letter read:—"Millbank Prison, London, Jan. 24, 1868—My dear friend, you will be very much grieved to hear the serious reverse that has befallen me lately, the cause of which I am as ignorant of as yourself; nevertheless, I have got into the meshes of the law, and when once fairly entangled, it is no easy matter to get extricated. It is needless to enter into details, as now you will have learned all the particulars through the public press. I wish you to go to Mr. James Mulleu, who will take you to a shoemaker named McNulty, in Bridgegate Street; mention my name, and see if he remembers doing a little work for me at the time this crime, of which I am supposed to be the author, was committed; if not, mention the few following incidents, namely, that I am the
party who waited on him on three different occasions to have my boots bottomed—first on Thursday, then again on Friday, when he promised them on Saturday and I found they were not done I kicked up a row with him, and that then two men set to work on them, and during the time they were working I sent out for the Evening Post and read an account of the Clerkenwell explosion, which was the first they had heard of it, I think this should bring the matter quite clearly to their rememberance. Tell Mc Nalty, if these two men have left him, to find them out, and also who the other parties were that were in the place at the time. I wish you to go to my old lodging at once, and take anything of mine that is there out of it, and if you can send me a change of the under-clothing, there is nothing I want more. P.S.—Will you please send me the red Urimean shirt that you will find in my lodging, and drawers are what I need most; you will also find some collars, of which I would like you to send me a few. You may rest assured we are in a miserable enough condition, being without friends or acquaintances to do anything for as. Now please not to neglect what I have told you to do; write at once. Of course all letters are read by the governor. I would also wish you to send me a pair of stockings. See Mr. Lewis at once. Mr.Mullen will bring you to him; he will also bring you to my old lodging. I hope that you at least do not accuse me of being guilty of this charge. Please to write by return").
Q. Now, I ask you whether, before McManus came to you with that letter, Captain McCaul did not expressely ask you whether you had not repaired boots for Barret, Whether a man had not come to your house about about that time to get boots bottomed had kicked up a row when he found them still undone, whether you had not got two men to do them, and whether the man did not send out for a newspaper, and read an account of the clerkenwell outrage while the work was being done? A. Captain McCaul came on a sunday, and led me completely astray by talking of "buttoning" insted of "buttoning"—I told him that O`Neil brought in a newspaper between 10 and 12 on saturday morning and any little boy carried it upstairs—he did not read from it about the explosion—beasked me iuf I had heard of it, and I said, "No"—I was too busy to read anything about it—I came up from Clasgow on monday night, with McMinas and six others—I, McManus, and the two shoemakers saw Barrett last night in prison—he wore in Glosgow a stiff billycoek hat and darkish clothes—I believe the jacket he has on now is the one he wore then—I did not assist in getting up a subscription for the men at Manchester—I never saw Barrett before—O`Neil used to bring tea to my house every week.
MR. GREENE. Q. You say you saw Barrett last evening in the gaol: were there any other person other person with him? A. Yes—I did not count how many there were there were a good few of them, perhaps a dozen or so there might perhaps be one or two more or less—they were walked round, and I picked him out as the man who had been in my shop—some of the officers of the gaol were there—I do not know whether the governor was or not—I do not keep work for wholesale places—I work for custom shop only, and sometimes you cannot get enough from the custom shop only, and sometimes you cannot get enough from the custom shop to keep you going—and sometimes none at all—they are always shoemakers that I do have—the public house in Glasgow have the names of the person who keep them
over the doors, but they do not have signs—I cannot tell you who this Captain McCaul is who called on me—I understand he is the Captain of the Glasgow police; he told me so—he did not tell me when he came—he came into the room, and asked if we had any private place to talk in—I said I had no place but the kitchen, and he took me into the kitchen, and I told the wife to go out—another gentleman was with him, who, I understood, is a detective, named Smith—I asked him who this gentleman was, and he told me it was Captain McCaul—I am quite sure he never mentioned bottoming boots at all; he only said buttoning boots, and I said I did not understand what that Was, neither do I yet—that was the reason I misunderstood him altogether—the journeymen shoemakers in Glasgow mostly try to get their work done by 2 or 2.30—I had a pair of boots to make that day in a particularly great hurry, and I could have got no wages unless they were done—the shops shut about 9, and I could not have got the wages that height if I had not done them—I could not have done Barrett's boots for all the money in the world, and I should have lost my work if I had; the reason that I did not do them.
COURT. Q. How long did it take Barrett to read the account of the Clerkenwell outrage? A. I could not tell exactly, but not more than five minutes, I should think—I don't know which of the Glasgow evening papers it was; I believe there are two published—it did not give an account of any examination, or inquiry, or anything taking place at a police-court, but only of the blowing up of a wall, or something of that kind—Mullen did not tell me where Barrett lived, nor did I ask him—Barrett did not pay, himself, for repairing his boots, because Mullen told me he would pay and I would have let him have three pairs of new boots on Mullen's word—I looked to Mullen for the money—he paid me; I gave no receipt—on that saturday night I took a pair of ordered boots home to the shop I work for, Mr. David Mahon's, who lives in Argyle Street—I had got them out to make on the Thursday might, and had only one day to make them—Barrett's boots were brought in on Thursday—I did not repair them on Friday, because I was making a pair of boots for the shop day also, Which I took home on the Friday night—I shop a pair of boots every night—on Saturday I was very much hurried to get my work done, because, if I had not got the boots in before the shop closed, I should not have been able to draw my week's wages—the two men who called on me, and did Barrett's boots, Were journeymen shoemakers who had finished their work early—I don't know which of them mended the right boot, and which mended the left—I believe they had not before, heard of the Clerkenwell explosion before it was read to them—there was some talk about it afterwards—I said it was horrid, and I believe the other two men said the same thing—Barrett said it was as ridicnlous a thing as he had ever heard—by "ridiculous," I suppose he meant something horrifying, or terrifying.
saturday, A pril 25 th, 1868. JOHN PEAK. I am a boot and shoe maker, of 60, Rose Street, Glasgow—I work for a shop—I make boots and shoes at home and take them to my employcrs—I have know McNulty about two years—I remember going to his house on a Saturday in December; I was coming from the shop after getting paid, and mer a shopniate; I asked him how he was getting on, he said that he was not very busy—I said that I was going over to McNulty's to see if he had finished—he said would go with me, and we both went
over—I live on the south side and McNulty lives on the city side of Glasgow—on going into MrNulty's, I saw a strange man that I know nothing about—Barrett is the man—I had never seen him before—McNulty asked me whether I would oblige him to do a job for him—I asked what sort of a job it was—he said it was to sole heel, and welt a pair of boots—I asked when he wanted them done—he said he wanted them before seven—I said I could not have them done in that time—my acquaintance Welsh, who accompanied me, said he would do one of them—we sat down and commenced, an finished them within the time that they were wanted, in McNulty's workshop—the strange man called in McNulty's little boy from the kitchen to go and buy a paper, the Evening Post—it was between three and four, I think, when we went into McNulty's—I leave off work at nine o'clock on Saturday morning, as all my work has to be in by that time—the boy brought in the paper, and the strange man sat and read it, while we were doing the boots—he read the explosion in London—I had heard of it before that morning—I first heard of it that Saturday morning the foreman was speaking of it. Where I took my work at nine o'clock—we worked at the boots, and finished them between 6 and 7—I can't say exactly, for there was no clock in the house—the strange man then want away and took the boots with him.
Cross-examined by MR. ATTORNEY GENERAL. Q. Who do you work for? A. Mr. Mackintosh, of Stockwell Street—I do not work for him now, but I did for about eight months—I have ceased to do so about two months—I now work for Mr.Martin, who ha a shop in the Gallowgate—I have heard Mr.Mullr's name in Glasgow, but never knew him—I did no work on Saturday but these boots—between 9 o'clock and the time I went to McNulty's I was at different places; first I was at McCann's and another place was a man's named Finnis's; and I was at different places, walking about—I did not go home before I went to Mc.Nulty's; I walked about until I went there—I found the man who went with me in Stockwell Street—I had no dinner that day—I received no pay till 2 in the afternoon; I then received 15s—I met Welsh directly afterwards—it was not far to McNulty's—I can't say whether it was 2 or 3 o'clock when I met Welsh—when I went in the stranger was sitting on the left side and McNulty on the right—I think he was dressed something the same as he is now; he had a felt that, round in the crown—the kitchen was the next room—no one else came into the room while I was there but the little boy who was called in—after leaving there I went home—the man. Welsh left with me, but he did not go home with me; he went with me as far as the Close mouth—I had no dinner till I got home, I often go without—I saw McNulty the next week—I call on him regular, sometimes two or three times a week; he don't often call on me—I had heard of the explosion—I don't know whether it was placarded about Glasgow, or whether it was in the morning papers—I don't know McManus; I have heard of the name—McNulty came and asked me about this afterwards—a letter had come down, I believe—I did not see it, or hear it read—McNulty told me about it at my house—I cannot fix the day of the week—Welsh was not there at that time—I had heard of Barrett and O'Neil being taken up before that, in Glasgow, for a pistol affair—I can't say how long after that I heard of the letter—I came up with McNulty, Welsh, and others to London, and we all stayed together, at some place near Fleet Street—I saw Barrett in Prison on Thursday; that is the only time I have seen him, except now, since I mended the boots.
MR. GREENE. Q. I understand you to say you went to receive your
money at 2 o'clock on the Saturday? A. Yes; it is sometimes not paid till 3; on this day it was later than usual.
COURT. Q. When the account of the explosion was read, was there any talk about it? A. Yes; I said it was a very grate shame; a very bad thing—I don't remember any of the others saying anything—Welsh said nothing—there was a kind of word among us all, something about badness—he found fault with it; he thought it was wrong; but I don't remember anything particular that was said—I do not remember which boot I mended—I have nothing to fix that particular Saturday in my mind, only the report of the explosion was on the particular day that I was at this shop—the explosion was on the Friday before, but the first I heard of it was on the Saturday morning—I am sure that the day I heard of it was the day I was at McNulty's shop.
JOHN WELSH . I live at 78, Stockwell Street, Glasgow—I am a shoemaker, and I work for Mr. Neeson—I have worked for him for fourteen months—I know McNulty and Peak—I remember one Saturday in December last, meeting Peak in Stockwell Street, Glasgow—it was, I think about half-past three o'clock—we walked together as far as McNulty's and went in—there was a man in at the time getting his boots done—Barett is the man—McNulty asked John Peak to oblige him by doing a job for him—he asked when the job was wanted—McNulty said he wanted it done in two hours—he said he could not have it done in that time—I said that I would do one of the boots for him—we both set to work then at McNulty's and continued working at them till they were finished—I had never seen the stranger before to my knowledge—he sat there while we were doing the boots, and sent out for a paper, which was brought in—he then read an account of explosion at Clerkenwell—I did not here him read any other part of the paper—I had heard of the explosion in the morning and had seen it on the placards of the Herald newspaper but I had not heard any of the particulars till the strange man read them—when the boots were finished I went home—that was about 6.30
Cross-examined by MR. ATTORNEY GENERAL. Q. Who is Neeson that you work for? A. A manufacturer—McNulty did not work for him while I was there, which was nearly sixteen months continuously, and I do not think he worked for him at all—I work for him now—the workshop is in Stockwell Street, near were I live, it used to be in Hutchinson Street—the change was last May, I think—I always worked on the premises—Neeson keeps no men out—they generally all work on the premises and have done so since I have been a workman for him—as a usual thing he may have ten or twelve men on the premises, and some weeks less—I had finished work for good that day, about 3 o'clock, and had received my wages—I was going to my lodgings when I met Peak, about fifty yards from my lodging, just across the street from McNulty's who is a friend of mine—I have known him a long time—I asked him how he was getting on, and whether he was paid—he said that he was and off we went out—I asked him if he had finished his work, he said "No"—he was sitting at the window at his work, and the strange man was sitting at the other window—the strange man was getting his boots soled, heeled, and welted—he had left them with McNulty to get them done, but they had not been begun—he had boots on—it was about ten minutes after I went in that the paper was sent for—no one came into the room except McNulty's wife and little boy during the time I was there—his wife did not stay for more than a minute or two—she
took no part in the conversation that I heard—I generally go to work at 6 a.m—I saw the placards after coming from my breakfast at t 9 o'clock—I think the explosion was talked about at Neeson's—the stranger had dark clothes on, a low hat with a round top—I knew Mullen, he Worked at Neeson's—he left two or three months ago, as near as I can remember—I don't know McManus—I have heard of him from McNulty—I don't know what he is—I know him by sight, having seen him once at Neeson's—after the explosion I remember hearing of Barrett and O'Neil being taken up at Glasgow for the pistol affair—I remember McNulty coming to me after that; he did not say anything about a letter he had received—he came to my lodging in Stockwell Street—I saw Peak soon after; and we went to McNulty's—sometimes I went every night to McNulty's, and sometimes not for a week—I Have often met him there.
COURT. Q. Do you remember at McNulty, when the account was read by the man of the Clerkenwell explosion, either you or peak saying that it was the first you had heard of it? A. I do not know—I think it was peak I heard say so—I think he said that he had not heard of the explosion before when the stranger read it—someone said it, and I am almost sure it was Peak—I am sure I did not say so—I had seen it in the placard, but I had not read it before that—the stranger had a pair of boots on his feet, and the pair I assisted in repairing were, in the shop—there are two windows I sat at this right hand one, near it, for the sake of light—I sat there the whole time I was doing the boot—three of us sat round the window—I worked by the light of the window the whole time—we had a lamp—it is generally lit about 3 or 3.30—it was placed just by the window—I can't exactly say how long I had been at work when the lamp was brought in; not long: I think about half an hour—I met Peak about 3.30—we went to McNulty's, and began to work shortly after going in—we could work half an hour by daylight, I think.
ARTHUR BURGOYNE . I live at 14, Greenside Lane, Glasgow—I am a blacksmith, and work for laidlaw & Sons, Glasgow—I have worked off and on for them for two years—(looking at the prisoner) I recognize Michael Barrett—I first knew him last August, in the Britania Music hall, Trongate, Glasgow—I went into the music hall, and he was sitting on the seat which I went to—we got talking together), and made an appointment to meet there a week afterwards—I generally saw him after that once a week—it is usual for Working men to meet by appointment at the Cross, in Glasgow, to take a walk or have a glass of porter—I remember the executions in Manchester—there was a torchlight demonstration in Glasgow by the Irish residents on the Thursday, two days before the excution—I attended It myself, and saw Mr. Macorry, the chairman, and Michael Barrett there—the object was to petition the Home Secretary—I carried a torch and got burned, and my clothes got destroyed from the drops falling, the torch was composed of resin or tar—I heard Barrett afterwards say that evening that he had sustained injury from some person running a torch against his jaw—he said his face and clothes were destroyed—he said his face was almost destroyed by it—I thought he meant hair—when I first knew him he had a light small whisker, Which appeared to be thin—after the demonstration he had no whiskers—he had whiskers at the time the demonstration—when he made this remark about his face being destroyed his whiskers seemed Binged, and there were marks as if drops had fallen on his face here and there from the torches—in December there was a committee to get up a funeral demonstration—it was proposed that it should
proceed from Glasgow Green to Dulbeth Cemetery—Dr. Grey, the Roman Catholic bishop, wished to stop it, and the night of the last meeting to arrange the demonstration, on a Friday night, when it was thought that all would be finally settled, the chairman, Mr. Macorry, the editor of a Glasgow paper, made a communication to the committee to the effect that the bishop promised, if they would abandon the demonstration, he would instead give a solemn requiem high mass for the repose of the souls of the men—that was accepted—I was at that meeting—I saw Macorry and between fifty and sixty other persons there—the meeting was held at the Bell Hotel, kept by Mr. Bell—after it broke up some persons remained behind, and I saw Macorry, Gallagher, Michael Barrett, and others—I did not see Barrett at the meeting, but I saw him afterwards—we had a cup of tea, and Maeorry played the piano in a private room—it was after 11 o'clock at night—Barrett was with us there—his face had not been shaved then for a day or two—I had met him between then and the torchlight meeting, and his face was then bare—I know that Friday was the 13th December by the meeting—I saw Barrett once or twice after that, and then I heard of his arrest—I have not seen him since until I now see him in the dock.
Cross-examined by MR. ATTORNEY-GENERAL. Q. You are a Fenian, I suppose? A. No I am not—I sympathised with the men who were hanged, but not with Fenianism—I don't remember what I called those men—I did not, that I remember, call them murdered men or martyrs—Mr. Macorry then edited the Glasgow Free Press and now edits the Irish Catholic Banner—I saw Barrett alone on the first occasion in August—I don't know O'Neil—I did not go to the Police Court to see him—I know McManus—I hare known him at those meetings only—I can't say whether I have met him at the Music Hall—I don't know where Barrett lived in Glasgow—I never knew where be lived, I never asked him; he appeared to be working about the quays—I don't know where he worked—I don't know what his employment was, I did not ask him—he has been once or twice to my house—the torchlight meeting before the execution of Allen and others was at the Bell Hotel, in a room there—the demonstration was on Glasgow Green, but there was a meeting before at the Bell, and then we went to Glasgow Green with the torches—I can't say how many persons attended that meeting, more than 300 or 400, the Green was almost full—the meeting at the Bell was to get up the torchlight demonstration—the room was about full, I don't think there was so many as sixty or seventy—Mr. Macorry was there, and McManus; I don't know about Mullen; I don't know him—I mean I don't know him at all, by sight or anything—McManus I believe is a bottle blower—I don't know where he lives—when I said Barrett's face was almost destroyed by the droppings of the torch, I meant his whisker was injured—I don't know whether the hair of his head was injured—I can't say whether both his whiskers were injured, I meant to say one—no mass took place that I heard of for the Manchester men—there might have been between fifty and sixty persons present at the meeting when Mr. Maoorry spoke about the Bishop—I did not see McManus there—I have not said that he was, I don't know whether he was or not, he might have been or he might not—there might be six or seven who remained behind after that meeting—I can't give you the names of the others—I have heard that Gallaghar is a foreman tailor—I used to see him at the meetings—he was a regular attendant; I can't say whether the others were; I may have seen them there—I remained at Glasgow till I came up here with the others, Mr. Macorry and McManus.
CHARLES MCMANUS . I live at 30, Canal Street, Port Dundas, Glasgow—I know the prisoner Michael Barrett—I am a bottle|makei*, and work for Messrs. Casson and Co., and have worked for them for twenty years—I first knew Barrett about thirteen months ago—it was at a soiree held in honour of St. Patrick, on or about the 17th of March, 1867—he then wore Whiskers on the cheeks—I met him from time to time in Glasgow after I first made his acquaintance—I saw preparations for the torchlight demonstration, but I was not at it myself—I knew that after the execution of the Manchester prisoners there was to have been a funeral demonstration as a mark of sympathy—I know Mr. Macorry; and I was at one meeting to carry it out—I saw Michael Barrett about that time—he, was at that meeting—he had no whiskers or beard on his face then; nothing but a two or three, or three or four days growth of hair all over his face—the date of than meeting would be about the 13th of December, to the best of my recollection—it was held at the Bell Hotel, Trongate—after that I heard of Barrett's arreet.
Cross-examined by MR. ATTORNEY GENERAL. Q. Did you see him after he was arrested? A. No—I saw him the Friday, preiously—he remained without shaving, I think, as long as I saw him—all the hair on his face was growing, whiskersand and beard alike—he lived at first in Centre Street, Glasgow, south side—I think No. 52—I don't know with whom he lived—I was never in the house—he left, I think, some time in October—I don't know of any! permanent lodging that he occupied after that—the sympathy meeting was held at the Bell Hotel, Trongate, Glasgow, after the execution—Macorry was there and addressed the meeting—he told us that Dr. Gray suggested the demonstration should not take place—I know Mr. Hughes, a publican, Gascaven Street—there is no sign up, only "Thomas Hughes, spirit merchant"—he sent letter to me, and went to McNulty with that letter, and read it to him—the day I cannot fix, but it was three or four days after receiving the letter—I told Macorry of, that letter—I adhere to the statement that, I don't know of any other lodging of Barrett than that at Centre. Street—I went to no other lodging after receiving that letter—the letter contained instructions to fetch a red Crimean shirt and drawers from his lodgings, but I did not know where those lodgings were—I saw a Mr. Lewis, but I did not go to any old lodging—I did not see, Mullen—I feftew he had left the Centre Street lodgings, because he told me so himself—I came up with McNulty, Macorry, and the rest—Barrett, I believe, worked on the quay at Glasgow, something to do with loading ships, or that like—I that like—I have never seen him working on the quay, nor do I know for whom he worked—he told me himself he worked on the quay.
COURT. Q. Why did you not write back and tell him could not send the things to him, because you did not know when he had lived? A. I went and got new things for him in Glasgow instead. Q. Did you ever blow glass bulbs round a powder or any mineral substance in your life? A. No, I never blow anything but glass bottles—I am quite sure I never blew glass bulbs round powder or other mineral substance—I sympathized with the men who were executed—I did not approve of what they had done—I don't say with all what they had done; not altogether to that extent—I think they did wrong; still I was sorry for them.
PETER MACORRY . I am editor of a newspaper in Glasgow, the Irish Catholic Banner—I am also the proprietor—my duties bring me, in constant Communication with the Irish section; of the inhabitants of Glasgow—my
paper specially circulates among the Irish Catholic population—it is a weekly paper, published on Friday, but dated for Saturday—I know Michael Barrett—I first knew him eight or nine months ago—I met him walking on Glasgow Green, on a Sunday afternoon, and he was introduced to me by a gentleman called Frank Gallagher—Barrett then had small-sized light whiskers, about four inches long, from the ear, not below the chin, on the cheek only—I met him afterwards, often—I remember the execution of the Manchester prisoners, and the torchlight demonstration previously—a great many persons were present—Barrett was there—it was two days before the execution—I saw Barrett a few days afterwards, and thought the whisker on one side of the face was singed slightly—I was damaged by the torches—my overcoat was destroyed, and my own whiskers were partly singed—my coat was injured by the droppings from the torches—after the execution they were going to get up a funeral demonstration—I was waited on by a large number of working men to get it up—I protested against it; but I found it was of no use, so I consented to attend—it was never held at all, because the Roman Catholic Bishop of Glasgow made a communication to—I was chairman of the committee for the demonstration—the communication was made to me by the Rev. Alexander Munro, on Thursday morning, 12th December, to the effect that the bishop disapproved of the demonstration—he wanted the names of the committee—I gave the names of some of them—I only knew three or four—there were fifty-eight at the last meeting—on the following night (Friday) a meeting was held in the Bell Hotel, Glasgow—I was the chairman—I told the meeting the result of a deputation to the bishop, and his proposal to have a requiem high mass instead—the meeting decided that the demonstration should not take place—no that evening I saw Barrett in the Bell Hotel—after the meeting a few members retired to a small room for a cup of tea—I and Barrett were amongst that number—this (produced) is the paper that was published by me, it is the Glasgow Free Press, the name is now changed, but it is the same paper—it is dated December 21st, 1867, it contains a report of the meeting of the 13th December—that was the first paper published after the meeting of the 13th.
Cross-examined by MR. ATTORNEY-GENERAL. Q. This paper, then, of December 14, published on the 13th, is your paper? A. Yes—I have no doubt I penned that article, "Scottish Catholic sympathy with the men who were murdered at Manchester"—it was not on Friday that I knew the requiem would be held, on Thursday—this notice of a solemn requiem for the repose of the souls of Allen, Larkin, and O'Brien, within a black margin is from my pen—this leading article, "Proposed funeral demonstration in honour of the three murdered men, Allen, Larkin, and O'Brien," I think is mine—I have no doubt of it—it begins, "It is with no little satisfaction we notice that the empty honour of a funeral demonstration has been changed for a solemn requiem high mass for our martyred brethren"—I was president of three or four of these meetings—they were not meetings of sympathy with the martyrs, they were preparatory meetings for the projected meeting on Glasgow Green—it was in honour of the martyrs, if it had taken place, but it did not—there was only one torchlight meeting—I attended no meeting before going to Glasgow Green—we did not meet at the Bell for the purpose of going there—I did not carry a torch myself—I was at a meeting in a private place of two or three individuals about getting bills printed—I don't know their names—I know few people in Glasgow by name, but a great many by
sight—Mr. Gallagher is a foeman tailor or cutter—I have known him for some time—he took an active part, and was a member of the committee—I presume he buys and reads my paper—I said Barett's whiskers were four inches in length from the ear when I first saw him about four inches long from the ear to the chin—I noticed that they appeared slightly singed on the night of the demonstration—I never knew Winslow, Brown, or Burke—I know there is such a person as Rickard Burke, by the papers; I don't know him myself—at the committee meeting on 13th December I counted fifty eight persons present, in counting votes on the bishop's proposal—I don't know where Gallagher lives in Glasgow, or Barrett's address; I never heard it—I understood Barrett was a stevedore—I don't know for whom he worked—I have known M' Manus between two and three years—he came from time to time to my place of business—I know two persons named Mullen—I have not seen Mullen lately—I know a gentlemen in Belfast, a stonecutter, named Murphy—I never had 18l. left in my hands for Mr. Murphy, or for Hastings—I know a person by sight called Kyne; I don't know how he spells his name—I have seen him once or twice at my place of business—he never placed any money in my hands for Murphy's wife, or anyone else—I have only seen him purchasing newspapers at my place—I stated in my paper that I was glad that a requiem high mass had taken the place of the funeral demonstration—this article in my paper of the 14th about Thompson is not written by me—sometimes I insert things without seeing them—I must have seen it after it was printed—this is it: "If proof were wanted to confirm our assertion that the three Irishmen were hanged, not for murder, but from a vindictive feeling, and to strike terror into the ranks of the Fenians, that proof would be afforded by the proceedings against the young man who is now awaiting his trial at the hands of 'English justice'"—I must have seen that.
MR. GREENE. Q. I suppose in your capacity of a journalist you see a large number of persons? A. A very large number, without knowing their addresses—I do not sympathize with Fenianism; on the contrary, I ascribe it to my influence over the working population of Irishmen in Scotland that they have been kept from Fenianism—I strongly suspect that I have been the means of preserving the working men from that influence, by my desire to keep them to such demonstrations as were legal—I strongly desired to persuade them even against demonstrations, but when I found they would have gone on by themselves I endeavoured to lead them—my articles have never had any Fenian tendencies, though they are written in an Irish national spirit.
COURT. Q. What do you mean by that? A. I mean the right of Irishmen to the same justice that exists in England and to legislative independence—I should say not with the view of the separation of Ireland from this country.
Q. But surely you would know? A. Well, then, I say no—I have never been prosecuted by the government for any matter of a political kind contained in my paper.
Q. Have any circumstances particularly impressed on your mind the fact of having seen Barrett, especially on that Friday evening? A. Yes, one or two things—he took an active part in guiding and controlling the demonstration, and in preserving order, and suffered by being burnt, and his clothes being injured—I notice him on that account—he wanted the
posting of bills throughout Glasgow announcing that demonstration—he was an active person on the committee for the proposed demonstration which, did not take place, and on this particular occasion we had great difficulty in getting the committee meeting to accept the proposal of Dr. Grey; the greatest possible difficulty on that Friday evening, because the people were determined to hold the demonstration, provided it were legal—I used every exertion to prevent it, and I believe he assisted me in permeating men's minds with my idea: hence my knowledge of him, and my desire to look upon him as an intelligent person—a few others in the same way assisted me in carrying out my project, but we had considerable difficulty in getting the meeting to accept the proposal of the bishop—six or seven persons were present at the tea—I knew them, all by eight—Barrett was one, Gallagher was another.
The following Witness was called in reply:—
AEXANDER MCCAUL . I am superintendent of the police at Glasgow—in January last I saw a document sent from London—I read it, and went to McNulty on Sunday, 26th January—I saw him, and asked him sotne questions, noting down his answers in this book (produced)—I had not known him before—what he stated was in answer to my question—I told him who I was—I asked him whether he had heard of the Clerkenwoll explosion—he said he had first heard of it from O'Neil; that he had known O'Neil for about four months, and was introduced to him by a man named Campbell—he said "O'Neil came into my house for 2s. 6d. on the Friday morning of the affair, and James Lewis, shoemaker, was in the house at the time, and I told O'Neil to call in the evening for payment; he called same evening, between 4 and 5 o'clock, and he did hot get payment, as I had not got money for work. On Saturday morning he called in the forenoon, and I gave him a shilling, and took as much tea as made up the shilling. I remember the date of the Clerkenwell affair from the fact that O'Neil left, on Saturday morning, that morning's Herald; and James Lewis came in after 2 o'clock, and read the account of it which had happened the day before. When O'Neil was in on Friday, Lewis was the only one in the house but my own family; there was no one in when O'Neil called on Saturday. I never had any men working to me, and certainly none about that time. I never heard Barrett's name, nor-do I know him at all; he never was introduced to me by O'Neil. I never-repaired any boots for O'Neil. I don't remember any man coming to my house about that time to get them buttoned"—that was in answer to a question I asked him, if he had any recollection of a man coming to his house to get a pair of boots "buttoned"—I asked him if he did not remember a man coming back, and that the work was undone, and he kicked up a row—he said he had no remembrance of such a thing—I asked him if he remembered a man who had brought some work for him sending out for a newspaper and reading the Clerkenwell affair—he said ho did not, and that such a thing could not have taken place without his remembering it—I asked him if he knew anyone of the name of Hughes—he said "No: "
Cross-examined by MR. GREENE Q. Did you receive some information from London? A. I had a copy of a letter from London; It was given to me by the chief constable—I did not receive it through the post—I told McNulty that I was a superintendent of police.
COURT. Q. Why did you say "buttoned"? A. I knew that the word used in the copy of the letter was "buttoned".
MR. ATTORNEY GENERAL to MICHEL MCNULTY. Q. Do you remember when McCall came to your house? A. Yes, on the Sunday—I did tell him O'Neil called on the Friday for 2s. 6d.; that he called the same evening, between four and five, and I could not pay him; that on Saturday morning he called between 10 and 12, as near as I could guess, that I gave a him and took a shilling's-worth of tea—I said O'Neil came on Saturday morning and left the morning's Herald; that James Lewis, the Shoemaker, came in, as near as possible at 2 o'clock, I could not tell to a moment, and read the account; that when O'Neil and Lewis were there, there was no one in the house but myself and family; that, when O'Neil came on Saturday morning, thee was no one n the house but my own family, and that there was no one with me when he came—he asked me if I ever employed any men, and I said "No"—he asked me if I ever worked for shops—I said, "Sometimes I do and sometimes I do not"—I never said that I had no men working for me, I said that I could not employ any men, I was working at a shop myself, those were the words I said—I said that I did not know Barrett, no more I did.
Q. That no such man was introduced by O'Neil? A. Never; he asked me if anybody introduced him in my place, and I said "Never"—I said that I never buttoned any boots in my life, in the house—I told him I had not done any boots since I had been there.
Q. Did you tell him he came again and kicked up a row? A. I did not understand what he meant by a row—he asked me what her I called in two men, I said "What was it for, to assist me or to throw him down stairs", he said that he did not know; he completely humbugged me—I do not remember saying that he did not come back and find them still undone and kick up a row—I cannot be perfectly sure, whether I said I did not remember any man sending out for a newspaper and reading the Clerkenwell affair.
Q. Did you say "If I did so I was drunk?" A. That was in the buttoning the boots, not about the paper; I said "If I buttoned any boots I was drunk when I done it"—I did not say that I did not know any person named Hughes, a publican, I said that I did know him.
COURT to CHARLES MCMANUS. Q. You said in the month of October last Barrett left his lodgings in Centre Street? A. As nearly as I can recollect he told me it was October, I rather think about the beginning as near as I can recollect—I did lose sight of him for a little time; I met him occasionally afterwards—from the time he told me he left his lodgings, it might he three or four weeks before I met him again—I generally met him every three or four weeks, or two weeks sometimes—the last day I took notices of him he was in my house, and took tea with me—there was a man there and a woman, who also saw him—I know it because it was Halloween in Scotland—I saw him gain the next week, and again after that, it might be the end of November, or the beginning of December, I cannot recollect the exact date—I did not lose sight of him then, I saw him about a week after that—I all this time made inquiry where he was staying, but he was dilatorty in telling me where he stopped—he was a great deal put about by circumstances—he had been a long time bed with sore eyes, and afterwards with a giddiness in his head—he could not work—I advanced him a little money, as he was in straightend circumstances—he told me he would pay
me as soon as he was able—I said, "Never mind"—I asked him several times where he was lodging, and never learned—I, believe he was lodging in some of the common lodging houses—I believe he went sometimes there—the reason I know it is, that he left me one night and said that he was going to a lodging house in the Trongate—that is convenient to the Tron Steeple, between the Tron Steeple and the Cross—when I got the letter from London I did not write any answer—I sent him the clothes that he desired, at least others instead—he tells me in the letter to go to his lodgings and get certain things.
Q. What did you understand from that, seeing that he had declined to tell you where he was living? A. He told me I was to call on a man named Lewis, and he was to take me to his lodging house and get those things, as near as I can recollect—I did not go to his old lodging; I thought by his saying I was to go there that I was to see Mr. Lewis—I did not know Mr. Lewis then—I know him now—he is a shoemaker, I believe—I do not know his house—I was taken to the Calton to see him—I do not know whether he is the landlord of that lodging, I made no inquiry—I asked him if he knew the lodging—he said that he had not time to go and see just now—I felt for Barrett, and sent him some things myself.
WILLIAM DESMOND, TIMOTHY DESMOND, and ENGLISH— NOT GUILTY .
BARRETT— GUILTY — DEATH