14th February 1798
Reference Numbert17980214-40

Related Material

ActionsCite this text | Print-friendly version | Report an error
Navigation< Previous text (trial account) | Next text (trial account) >

183. PETER DEKCLERK was indicted for forging and counterfeiting, on the 30th of January , a Bank-note for the payment of 20l. with intent to defraud the Governor and Company of the Bank of England .

Second Count. For uttering and publishing the same, knowing it to be forged, with the like intention.

Third and Fourth Count. The same as the first and second, only laying it to be with intent to defraud William Algar .(The indictment was stated by Mr. Giles, and the case opened by Mr. Fielding).

WILLIAM ALGAR sworn. - Examined by Mr. Knowlys. Q. I believe you are a shoe-maker , in Chadd-street, near Wapping ? - A. I am.

Q. Did the prisoner come to you on the 30th of January? - A. Yes.

Q. Did he purchase any goods? - A. He bought a pair of boots, and two pair of shoes.

Q. What did they amount to? - A. One pound eighteen shillings.

Q. Was any man with him when he came? - A.There was an elderly person, I imagined him to be the mate.

Q. How did he offer to pay you? - A. By tendering me down a 20l. note, as it appeared to me to be, (the note produced); I believe this to be the note.

Q. What did you do with the note that he tendered you in payment? - A. I took it and looked at it; I did not like the appearance of the colour of the paper, and I did not like to change it, but sent it over to a neighbour opposite me.

Q. By whom did you send it? - A. By my son, and he brought it back again.

Q. Are you sure that the note your son brought back was the same note? - A. It looked like the same; then I inspected more closely into it, and sent it to a Mr. Allybone by my son.

Q. Did your son bring it back unchanged? - A. He did.

Q. After your son had tried there, what did you do with it? - A. I took it to a Mr. Culland, in Wapping.

Q. Did you get change for it? - A. I sent it by a servant maid to Mr. Culland, only to inspect into it.

Q. Did she bring you back the note? - A. She did.

Q. After she returned you the note what did you do with it? - A. I took it to the Bank.

Q. Who did you deliver it to there? - A. It was a holiday; I delivered it to a clerk, and he delivered it to a Mr. Blifs, the inspector.

Q.Was it delivered to Mr. Blifs in your presence? - A. It was not.

Q. Who did you deliver it to? - A. I don't know the gentleman's name.

Q. When did you see Mr. Blifs? - A. I saw him about three minutes after.

Q. Did you see the note in Mr. Blifs's possession? - A. I did.

Q. Did you see whether Mr. Blifs put a mark upon it? - A. No, I did not.

Q. Was the note you saw in Mr. Blifs's possession the same note you sent in? - A. Yes.

Q. There is the mark of W. A. upon the back of the note? - A. That is my mark.

Q.Where did you make those letters? - A. I signed them at Bow-street.

Q.After you had shewn this to Mr. Blifs what did you do? - A. Mr. Blifs returned with the note, and we went to Mr. Winter, the Solicitor of the Bank; two officers attended Mr. Blifs, and then I went with them to my own house.

Q. When you got to your own house, did you find the prisoner there? - A. The prisoner at the bar was there, and this gentleman, the mate.

Q. When the officers came to him did you hear him say any thing about the note? - A. When the officers came in rather hot upon him and searched him, he stood with a great deal of fortitude.

Q.Did you hear him, while the officers were searching him, say any thing about this note? - A. I heard him say, he took it Chichester.

Cross-examined by Mr. Const. Q. I see you have put your initials upon it, you have no doubt but it is the same? - A. I know it to be the same, I think I could pick it out of a hundred, I observed the word, pounds, wrote with a pen, and not a copperplate; I don't recollect I ever saw one wrote with a pen, but the grand reason is the colour of the paper.

Q. When you went to the Bank, you gave it to a clerk, whose name you do not know? - A. I do not.

Q. He took it from you, and went away for about three minutes? - A. He did.

Q. Of course, except from your supposing it to be the same, it having been out of your possession three minutes, you have no other way of knowing it? - A. No other way than by believing it to be the same.

Q. The next time you saw it, it was in Mr. Blifs's hands? - A. Yes.

Q. You have told us that the prisoner said something, do you mean that he spoke any words in English? - A. I am sure of it.

Q. Do you mean by words in English, he made use of the name of a town, or the name of a man? - A.Several words in English.

Q. Perhaps he talked of the town of Chichester? - A.He did say Chichester.

Q.Do you mean, upon your oath, to say that he spoke the English language fluently? - A. No, by no means fluently; "no good" is an English word, and he said, "why?" when it was told him by the mate, that I did not like to change the note, he came and asked me in this manner, "why?" I told him, I did not like the colour of the note, I thought it was a bad one.

Q. That is the only thing you can remember? - A. I think it was very properly answered.

Q. The conversation between him and the mate was in their own language? - A. It was.

Q. Did you observe, when they were talking their own language, that many of the words were like our own English? - A. I cannot say that, I did not pay any attention.

Q. You sent the note out three times? - A. No; twice.

Q. Those different times of offering the note, took up some space of time? - A. It did.

Q.Each of the times that this note was returned, he continued still in your shop? - A. Yes.

Q. Did he entertain an idea of your suspicions? - A.There was not a doubt of his understanding my suspicions, because he was told of them.

Q. How long might you have been gone to the Bank? - A. It took some time; I might be gone very near an hour and three quarters.

Q.Notwithstanding this suspicion, and knowing where you were gone, you found him, on your return, still waiting for you? - A. I did.

Q. You described that he behaved with a great deal of fortitude? - A. With a great deal of fortitude.

Mr. Knowlys. Q. When you told him of your objection to the 20l. did he say, he could pay you in any other way? - A. No, he did not.

Q. Did you make your objection to the 20l. note before you went to make enquiries about it? - A. Yes, I did, before I took it myself.

Q. Had you made those objections before you sent your son to get change for it? - A.Not to the prisoner at the bar, I had made those objections to my son.

Q. Was that loud enough for the prisoner and the mate to hear? - A. I don't think it was.

Q. Did you ask the prisoner to pay you in any other way? - A. When he tendered me down the 20l. note, I did not like the colour of the paper, and I asked him, if he could accommodate me with a smaller note; I was made to understand, by the mate, that the prisoner had no smaller; the prisoner had his pocket-book in his hand, and he shewed me a note, which he said, was a 50l. note.

Q. When you asked for a smaller note, and he said, he had not a smaller note, did you mention any thing about cash? - A. I did not.

Mr. Const. Q. You understood by the mate and the prisoner, that he had not a smaller note than the 20l.? - A. Yes; when I asked him, if he had a smaller note, he said, no.

Q. You first suggested your objection to your son, and sent him out to get change? - A. I did.

Q. On his return, you told the prisoner and the mate, you had some suspicions about it? - A. I did; and the mate gave him to understand, I did not like to change it, and he said, why?

Court. Q. Was it before you went to Mr. Culland's, that you intimated your suspicions that the note was not a good one? - A. It was.

Q. After you had been to Mr. Culland's, you did not see the prisoner again till you returned with the officer? - A. No, I did not.

Q. You are sure he understood you when you asked him whether he had a smaller note? - A. I am sure he did, he said, no, and shewed me another note, which he said, was a 50l. note, I did not see it open.

Q.Did he shew you any 10l. notes, or make mention of any? - A. He did not; I saw no 10l. note.

ROBERT ALGAR sworn. - Examined by Mr. Giles. Q.You are the son of the last witness? - A. I am.

Q.Were you in the shop on the 30th of January, when the prisoner at the bar and his mate came in? - A. I was not.

Q.When did you come in? - A.Between the hours of eleven and twelve, those two men were then in the shop.

Q.What were they doing? - A.They were bargaining with my father for a pair of boots and two pair of shoes.

Q. Which of them spoke to you father? - A. The mate was rather the interpreter.

Q. Did the other speak any English or not? - A. I did not observe that he said any words of English that I could distinctly understand; they agreed to pay one pound eighteen shillings for one pair of boots and two pair of shoes; the prisoner at the bar gave my father a 20l. note for the payment of those boots and thoes, he took it out of a pocket-book; my father said, he would be obliged to him if he would accommodate him with a smaller note, as he had not change enough to change it.

Q. What said the prisoner? - A. I did not understand the prisoner said any thing, but shewed a 50l. note; he shewed a note in his pocket-book, which he said, was a 50l. he did not take it quite out of his pocket-book; my father gave me the 20l. note, and desired me to go over to Mrs. Glegg, who keeps a public-house, to get it changed; I took the note from my father, and gave it into Mrs. Glegg's hand; it never passed out of my sight till I returned it to my father; he then sent me to a Mr. Allybone, in order to have his opinion whether it was a good note; I did not go there to change it.

Q.Did you take the note back? - A. Mr. Allybone was not at home, I gave it to his wife, and she carried it back into a back room, to give it to her son, and there it passed out of my sight for a few minutes; she brought me back a note, which I believe to be the same that I gave to her, I took it back again to my father; my father and I went behind the counter to examine the note, and my father held it up to the light, and he perceived the water mark was very dull, and he saw the word, pounds, was wrote with a pen instead of the copperplate; my father said, gentlemen, if you will stop a minute, I will go up stairs and compare this note with some notes I have got; my father went up stairs, and when my father came down, he said, he had not change enough in the house, but he would go out and get it changed; my father put on his hat and went out, and took the note with him.

Q. When he was gone, had you any conversa

tion with the prisoner? - A. I had with the mate, but not with the prisoner; I could not understand what the prisoner said.

Q. How long was your father absent? - A. I believe about an hour or an hour and a quarter.

Q. Did the prisoner at any time learn where your father was gone? - A. I don't know.

Q. When your father returned, what passed between you and the prisoner? - A. Nothing at all.

Q. Who came with your father? - A. I believe two officers, and Mr. Blifs, belonging to the Bank, came with my father; the officers immediately searched the captain. (The note produced).

Q.Is that the same note you took, have you any means of judging? - A. By every appearance of the note, I believe it to be the same, but I cannot swear positively.

Q. Were any questions put to him respecting where he got the notes? - A. I believe the inspector asked him where he took the notes, and the mate said, Chichester, and the captain said, Chichester.

Court. Q. That was after the mate had said something to the prisoner, which you did not understand? - A. It was.

Q. You heard the captain say, Chichester? - A. I did, repeatedly.

Q. Was there any thing more passed? - A. I don't remember that there was, I believe I have told you the whole of what passed.

Q. Do you know what they found upon the captain? - A.There was a 50l. and a 10l. note; the 50l. note, they said, was a bad one, and the 10l. note was good.

Q.Any money? - A. Two guineas in gold.

Cross-examined by Mr. Knapp. Q. Before you parted with the note to Mrs. Allybone, you had put no mark upon the note? - A. I had not.

Q. How long was Mrs. Allybone absent with the note? - A. I believe, about a minute or two minutes.

Q.She went completely out of your sight? - A. She did.

Q. The mate was the person who was the spokesman upon this business? - A. He was, the whole time.

Court. Q. What do you mean by the spokesman? - A. He was the person who interpreted what the captain said.

Mr. Knapp. Q. Did the mate speak bad English himself? - A. He did.

Q. Though you might understand in general what he said, he might speak some words you did not understand? - A. In general, I understood what he said.

Q. Do you think that the mate could understand every thing that you said? - A. I believe he did by the answers he made.

Q. At that time your father and you were holding the note up to the light, where was the prisoner and mate? - A. They were in the shop at the same time.

Q. Could they, while your father and your were behind the counter, holding up the note to the light, see that you were doing so? - A.They could.

Q. At the time your father said, gentlemen, if you will stay a little, I will go up stairs and compare the note with some I have got there, did they hear what your father said? - A. I believe they did.

Q.Then it appeared to you, that the prisoner at the bar perfectly well knew what your father said? - A. If the prisoner did not, the mate perfectly did.

Q.Did the mate in general communicate the conversation held between your father and him to the prisoner? - A. I cannot say.

Q. You say, you think your father was gone about an hour and a quarter? - A. It might be an hovl and a half or more.

Court. Q. While your father was absent, where was the prisoner and the mate? - A.They were in the shop all the while.

Q. Who was with them in the shop? - A. I was there, I believe, the whole time; I don't believe I was out of the shop, except to see what o'clock it was once.

ELIZABETH ALLYBONE sworn. - Examined by Knowlys. Q. Do you remember young Mr. Algar bringing a 20l. note to you to change? - A. Not to change, he brought it me to look at.

Q. Did you return to him the same note that he gave you? - A. I did.

HANNAH WALTERS sworn. - Examined by Mr. Knowlys Q. Whose servant are you? - A. Mr. Culland's.

Q. Do you recollect, on the 30th of January, Mr. Algar, the shoe-maker, giving you a note to carry up to your master? - A. He gave me a note.

Q. Did you return the same note to Mr. Algar, that he gave you? - A. Yes, I did.

WILLIAM STOKES sworn. - Examined by Mr. Giles. Q. Do you recollect receiving a 20l. note from Mr. Algar? - A. I do.

Q. What did you do with it? - A. I gave it to Mr. Blifs.

GASPER DANE sworn. - Examined by Mr. Fielding. Q. You are the mate of the sloop called the William and Anna? - A. Yes.

Q. How many voyages have you been with the prisoner at the bar? - A. This is the second voyage.

Q.Were you on board when she went to Chichelter? - A. Yes.

Q. How long were you there before you made your voyage, and when did you come to London?

- A. We cleared the ship the 2d of November, and staid two or three days after.

Q. Did you return to the continent? - A. No; we went away from Chichester to Rotterdam, we went to Dunkirk first, by a gale of wind.

Q.And from Rotterdam you came to London? - A. We came to London.

Q. Do you remember, on the 30th of January, going to the house of a Mr. Algar, with captain Dekclerk? - A. Yes; I went there to purchase some shoes and boots.

Q. When you went into the shop, was it you, or captain Dekclerk that bargained for the boots and shoes? - A. I was with him as his interpreter, because they could not understand him.

Q. Does he understand any English at all? - A.May-be a word or so, very little.

Q. When the boots and shoes were produced, do you remember what took place upon the payment for them? - A. The shoe-maker asked the price, and the captain offered two shillings less, and whether they went for that or less, I don't know.

Q.What was the price at last to be paid for them? - A. The price at last was 1l. 18s.

Q. How were they paid for? - A. I cannot tell.

Q.What did he do? - A. He took a paper out of his pocket to pay it with.

Q.When the man receive this paper, what did he say, did he address himself to you? - A. That I cannot say, the man went out with it.

Q.Did the shoe-maker say any thing to you about the note, when he had got it into his hand? - A. I do not know what he said about it.

Q. When he came back again with the note, did he say any thing to you? - A. No.

Q.When the shoe-maker took the note, did he say any thing about the sum of it, or ask him for any smaller? - A. That he did.

Q.What did the captain say? - A. The captain said he had none but a 50l.

Q.When he, Mr. Algar, went out with the note, you and the captain, and the young man, the son, were left in the shop? - A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember Mr. Algar, the shoe-maker, giving the note to his son? - A. Yes, I saw him.

Q. Do you know what passed at the time, did you understand any thing that the father said to his son? - A. No, I did not take notice.

Q. How soon was Young Algar gone out before he came back? - A. May be two or three minutes, I cannot say.

Q.Did he go out a second time? - A. I cannot tell you whether he had been one or two times.

Q. How soon after was it that Mr. Algar, the shoe-maker, went out himself? - A. It might be half an hour from their first coming into the shop.

Q.When Mr. Algar was gone, how long, ac- cording to your opinion, was he absent, before he came back again? - A.About an hour and a half.

Q. Had you any talk with the young man about the note when his father was gone? - A.No, I never talked about the note all the time he was away.

Q. Did you yourself say any thing to him, asking him where his father was gone to? - A.No. he said he himself thought his father was gone to the Bank.

Q. Did you tell that to the captain? - A. I did; I told the captain it would be very late before we dined to-day, the captain said, if we don't eat at one, we shall at two.

Q. When you heard the young man say he thought his father was gone to the Bank, what did you understand? - A. I thought it would be late before we got to dine.

Q.Did you understand any thing more from it, than it was likely to delay you, and keep you from your dinner? - A. Not a single word.

Q.Did the young man desire you to ask the captain where he had got the note? - A. He never asked that in my presence.

Q.When Mr. Algar returned, with some other gentlemen, and they had taken the captain into custody, what then passed? - A. They took us both, and searched us both.

Q.When they had searched the captain, and had found the different articles upon him, what did he say, as to the place where he got the note? - A. He said he had received the likeness of this at Chichester.

Q. Was he asked where he had got that note? - A. Yes.

Q. I am speaking of Algar's shop, when he was searched there, and he was asked where he had got the note, what did he say? - A. I heard him talking about Chichester.

Q. He said something then, did he mention the name of Chichester? - A. Yes, he did.

Q. Now attend to me; you, as the interpreter, were desired to ask of him where he had got the note? - A.After we had been searched and arrested.

Q.When you asked him the question, what did he say? - A. I did not ask him in the shop, I did not ask him till after we had been in arrest.

Q. When you did ask him that question, where did he say he got them from? - A. He said he had got some notes from one Van-Haverbach at Dunkirk.

Q. Did he say any thing about Chichester? - A. He did not speak any more about Chichester afterwards.

Q. But when you asked the question by the de

sire of this Gentleman, Mr. Winter, what was the answer? - A. The answer was about Chichester.

Q.What was it? - A. That he had received such paper at Chichester.

Q. Do you mean to say that? - A. That gentleman asked the captain where he got it, I said it to the captain, and the captain talked about Chichester, that such paper was got at Chichester, but I understand it was not the same paper, but the likeness.

Q.Recollect, the question you were desired to ask the captain was, where he got it from, now repeat his answer? - A. The captain told me, at Chichester at that time, and so I told that gentleman.

Q.Were you desired by this gentleman to ask the captain, from what person he got it at Chichester? - A. Yes.

Q. From whom did he say he got it? - A. He named Mr. Hobbs.

Q.What persons were with you and that gentleman, when he desired you to ask such questions of the captain, how many people came into the shop? - A. There was only a single woman came in.

Q. You went from the shop to this gentleman's house, did you not? - A. Yes.

Q. That question being put to him, he gave you an immediate answer, that he had it from Mr. Hobbs, at Chichester? - A. At that time he did.

Q.Where was it, at the gentleman's house? - A. At the gentleman's house.

Q.When you went to Bow-street, did he tell this story? - A. I asked the captain where he had got it.

Q.Did he say that he had got it from Mr. Hobbs, at Chichester? - A. He had told me, he got it from one Van-Haverbach, at Dunkirk; I said, why did you not say so to me at the gentleman's house, when we were arrested, he said that the first time, I had misunderstood him.

Q. This was on the Saturday, when you went to buy the boots, on what day was it you were at Bow-street the first time? - A. The Tuesday following.

Cross-examined by Mr. Const. Q. When the shoemaker came back, with the two gentlemen that searched you, did he then say any thing where he got the notes from? - A. I did not take any notice at the time, I was out of my senses.

Q. The captain does not speak English? - A. No, every thing that passed was with my interpreting.

Q. While you were at the shoe-maker's, you do not remember any thing about the notes being accounted for? - A. No.

Q.When you were at that gentleman's house, they asked you some questions? - A. They asked nothing of me, but told me to let them know what the captain said.

Q.One of the questions they bid you ask him, was, where it was he got the notes from? - A. Yes.

Q. When you asked him that question, you said something to this gentleman that you thought he told you? - A. He talked about Chichester, but he did not mean Chichester.

Q. When you told this gentleman what he had said, did he speak to you again? - A. No.

Q.Nothing more passed about it? - A.Nothing more.

Q. At Bow-street, when you asked him, where did you get those notes? did he say to you, "I got"them of Van-Haverbach, at Dunkirk"? - A. Yes.

Q.And then you said, why did you not say so the first time? - A. Yes.

Q. You said, why did you not say so at first, for you told me Chichester? - A. Yes; he said his mind was so before, but it was only the likeness of them, and not those papers.

Q. Was that the way he explained it? - A.That was the way.

Q.You say his mind was so; can you tell me, in any other words, what the mind is in your language? - Court. Q. Tell the interpreter in the language the captain used at Bow-street; what the captain said at Bow-street about the notes to you. - In what language did the captain speak to you at Bow-street? - A.In Dutch.

Q. Tell the interpreter, in Dutch, what the captain said at Bow-street? - (The witness speaks to the interpreter in Dutch).

Interpreter. A. That he had received those notes an hour previous to his departure from Dunkirk, from Van-Haverbach.

Court. Q. You have told us, that upon his telling you that he had received those notes from Van-Haverbach, at Dunkirk, you said, why did you not say so the first time, for you talked of Chichester; now tell the interpreter, in the captain's language, what the captain said to that question? - Interpreter. A. He put the question to the captain, the captain said, he had misunderstood him.

Court. (To Interpreter.) Q. What more did he say? -

Interpreter. A. Nothing more.

Court. (To Witness.) Q.Did the captain explain to you then, what he had said to you the first time? - A.No, he did not.

Q. What did he say about the likeness of any paper? - A. That he had received the likeness of such paper at Chichester.

Mr. Const. Q. When the captain went to Chichester with his freight, you went with him to Mr. Hobbs? - A. Yes.

Q. Therefore you saw Mr. Hobbs paying him the freight? - A. I was present; I stood a very little way from them.

Q. Did you see Mr. Hobbs pay him any such paper as that? - A. Yes, I did; I saw the same sort of papers, five different papers; he put them into his pocket-book, and went to the Customhouse.

Q. I don't know whether you ever saw this 20l. note before? - A. I never saw it before.

Court. Q.When you repeated to the gentleman the answer which the captain gave you to the question the gentleman desired you to ask, where he got the notes, did you then understand that the answer you gave the gentleman, was the answer the captain gave to you? - A. Yes.

Mr. Fielding. Q. When you were with the captain at the house of Hobbs, you say he was paid so many different notes? - A. Five notes.

Q. What did he do with those notes? - A. He put them into his pocket-book, and went to the Custom-house to clear his ship.

Q. Did you go to the Bank? - A. I saw him change one note at the Custom-house upon the clearance.

Q. Did he get cash for the other notes? - A. That I don't know.

Q. Did you go with him to the Custom-house where he got money for his notes? - A. No.

VENAN VINT sworn. - Examined by Mr. Garrow.

Q. What are you, Mr. Vint? - A. I am a partner in the house of Van-Dyke and Company.

Q. Was your house employed as the agents in England, for the merchants to whom the prisoner's ship belonged? - A. Yes.

Q. Did you see the prisoner at your accompting-house on the morning of Tuesday the 30th of January? - A. Yes.

Q. Did you, at that time, pay him any money? - A. I did; I paid him a 10l. Bank-note.

Q. Should you know the note? - A. No.

Q. Have you no account of the number? - A. No.

Q. Did the prisoner, at that time, produce to you any paper purporting to be a 20l. Bank-note? - A. He did.

Q. Did he state to you where he had received that 20l. note? - A. Not at that moment.

Q.State to the Court what he did say upon the production of that note to you? - A. He shewed me a 20l. Bank-note, and asked me if I thought it was a good one.

Q.What more passed? - A. I answered him, I thought it was; I then passed it to Mr. Jackson, one of the clerks, he told me he thought it was a good one; I then asked Mr. Jackson whether there was any body in the Bank of the name of Greenway.

Q. Did he at any time, in the course of that conversation, say who he received that Bank-note from? - A.To the best of my recollection, he told me that he received it at Chichester.

Q. Was that communication to you, of his having received it from Chichester, from any question put to him - Did you ask him where he had received it? - A. I think I did.

Q.What were the words he told you? - A. According to the best of my knowledge - I can tell you in Dutch, but I cannot say them in English. (States the words in Dutch).

Q. What do you take to be the literal translation of those words you have been using? - A. I then understood that he received the notes from Chichester.

Q. Do you remember the name of any person occurring from the captain? - A. Yes; Hobbs's name was mentioned by him.

(The note produced.) Q. Look at this note, and tell us whether that is the note the prisoner produced to you? - A. I believe it is the same note.

Q. Will you endeavour to recollect, as near as you can, the manner in which Mr. Hobbs, of Chichester, was introduced into that conversation? - A. As his consignee.

Q.From the conversation you had with the prisoner, did you collect that Mr. Hobbs had any thing to do with the note? - A. I told you so before; I understood he had got the note from Mr. Hobbs, at Chichester.

Cross-examined by Mr. Knapp. Q. This notes you tell us went through your inspection, together with Mr. Jackson's? - A. Yes; and several other persons,

Q. In the course of your business, I take it for granted, you must have a great number of notes pass through your hands? - A. Yes, we have.

Q. If this had been offered to you in payment, should you have had any difficulty in taking it from the captain? - A. No; I should have had no difficulty.

Q. Would you not have given him change for it if he had desired it? - A. I would.

Q. You have been in Court during the time the mate was examined, Gasper Dane? - A. Yes.

Q. Did you hear that witness, the mate, admit, in the conversation he had with the prisoner, that he received such paper at Chichester? - A. Yes.

Q. You have told us, Mr. Vint, that the words were equivocal in themselves? - A. Yes.

Q. Then, having heard what passed by the mate's evidence, do you still persist in the terms being so equivocal, that you might not understand it in the fair interpretation? - A. I do think so; I think any body might be very easily mistaken in it.

Q. You were, at that time, conversing about

Bank-notes laying before you? - A. I tell you his answer was very equivocal.

Court. Q. Give us the answer literally in English? - A. I received some notes from Chichester, I understood it to include that note.

Mr. Knapp. Q. You have known the prisoner at the bar some time? - A. No, I have not; I never saw him before this voyage.

Q. Did he come to you well recommended? - A.Perfectly so.

Q.From persons whom you corresponded with? A.From one of the first houses in Rotterdam.

Court. Q. Did he give you any reason for asking your opinion upon that note? - A. None in the least; I gave him a 10l. bank-note, and then he went away.

Q. What time of day was it? - A.Between ten and eleven o'clock in the morning.

NATHANIEL LOARING sworn. - Examined by Mr. Garrow. Q.You are clerk to the solicitors of the Bank of England? - A. Yes.

Q. Were you present at Mr. Winter's house, when the prisoner was examined there? - A. I was in Mr. Winter's office at the time.

Q. Were you attending the examination? - A. I took the minutes by Mr. Winter's direction, in writing.

Q. Do you recollect Mr. Winter's desiring that a question might be put to the prisoner where he received the notes? - A. I do.

Q. What answer did you minute? - A. He received them at Chichester, from Mr. Hobbs, for a freight of his cargo in November last.

Q. The notes were the subject of this examination? - A. Yes; the notes lay upon Mr. Winter's desk, here are my minutes.

Q. Were these two the notes, respecting which the examination was had? - A. Yes, they were.

Q.I understand you are not conversant with the Dutch language - A. No.

Q. Attending to the answer given by the prisoner, are you able to say, whether the words,"Chichester" and "Hobbs" occurred in his answer? - A. He used those words, which I perfectly understood, and he pointed to the notes, so that I had not the least doubt but he meant the notes, he pointed to both the notes, and he produced a small paper out of his pocket-book, containing some part of the account of his freight, and the money he received for it of Mr. Hobbs.

Q. Though you did not understand the words which composed the rest of the sentence, you understood the words, "Hobbs," and Chichester?"- A. I understood no other words than Hobbs and Chichester.

Cross-examined by Mr. Const. Q. You understood no words but Hobbs and Chichester? - A. No.

Q. You were present during the examination of the mate? - A. Yes.

Q. The conversation was between the mate and prisoner, in which you understood the two words,"Hobbs," and "Chichester"? - A. I only understood "Hobbs," and "Chichester. I told you before, that the mate was desired to ask the captain in Dutch, how he came by those notes, and I minuted his answer down, through the interpretation of the mate.

Q. That is the conversation of which the mate has been talking? - A. Yes, it is.

EDWARD FUGION sworn. - Examined by Mr. Knowlys. I am one of the officers of Bow-street; I apprehended the prisoner at the house of Mr. Algar, I found upon him a 50l. note, a 10l. note, and two guineas in gold.

Q. Look at that 50l. note, and see if that is the note you found upon him? - A. It is.

Q. And that 10l. note? - A. Yes.

Cross-examined by Mr. Knapp. Q. When you apprehended him, you had no difficulty at all in searching him? - A.None at all.

Q.You have been an officer some time? - A. Yes.

Q. Did you ever apprehend any man who conducted himself with more propriety than the prisoner? - A.Certainly not.

Q. Did you search the ship? - A. I did.

Q. Did you find any thing? - A. No.

Court. Q.Where did you find the notes? - A. In a pocket-book.

THOMAS BLISS sworn. - Examined by Mr. Garrow. On the 30th of January, this note was brought to the Bank by Mr. Algar, the shoemaker.

Q. Is that a genuine Bank of England note? - A. It is not, it is a forged note. (The 50l. note produced).

Q. Is that a forged note also? - A. It is, it was found upon the prisoner, I put my name upon it,(the 20l. note read.)

No. 6362, No. 6362, 1796, Bank 11 Feb. 1796.

I promise to pay to Mr. Ab. Newland, or bearer, on demand, the sum of 20l.

London, the 11th day of February, 1796.

For the Governor and Company of the Bank of England. J. Greenway. Entered J. Gilbert.(the 50l. note read, signed E. Lewin.)

Mr. Blifs. That is a very bad imitation of Mr. Lewin's hand-writing.

- GREENWAY sworn. - I am one of the cashiers of the Bank.

Q. Look at that note, and tell us if that is your hand-writing? - A.It is not.

HENRY HOBBS sworn. - Examined by Mr. Giles. I live at Chichester; I know the prisoner, he

brought me a cargo of wheat and cheese early in November last, I advanced him ten guineas in part of his freight, on or about the 6th of November, I paid him in cash.

Q. Did you pay him any Bank of England note, or any paper, purporting to be one - A. None.

EDWARD HYDE sworn. - Examined by Mr. Knowlys. I am one of the partners in the house of Hobbs and Co. I remember paying the prisoner his freight, I paid him about 90l. the 14th of November, all in cash.

Q. Do you know who paid him the rest? - A. Mr. Stephen Hack, my partner, he paid him cash, I believe, except five Chichester 10l. notes.

Q. Did the captain make any objection to these Chichester Bank-notes? - A. He did; he wanted all cash.

Q. He received all cash, except these five Chichester notes? - A. He did.

Q. Do you know of your own knowledge, whether the prisoner got cash for these five notes? - A. I do not.

Q. What is your firm? - A. Hyde, Hobbs, and Hack.

Q. Is there any other person of the name of Hobbs, in Chichester? - A. Yes.

Court. Q. Is there any other that the prisoner is concerned with? - A. believe not.

CHARLES TAPPER sworn. - Examined by Mr. Giles. Q. You are a clerk in the Chichester Bank? - A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember the prisoner at the bar coming to the Chichester Bank, and cashing notes? - A. I do; I think there were five, I am not positive.

Q. Are you sure there were four? - A. Yes.

Q.What did you give him for them? - A. Cash.

Q. When was it? - A. To the best of my memory, I think it was either the 14th or 15th of November.

Court. (To Hyde.) Q. It was the 14th of November you paid him 90l. and you say you saw Mr. Hack pay him the remainder, was that the same day? - A. It was the same day.

The prisoner put in a written defence, which was read as follows:

My Lords and Gentlemen, I am innocent of the crime laid to my charge; the two Bank-notes found in my possession; I received from Mr. Van-Haberbach, on the quay, at Dunkirk, the day I failed from that place; I have been acquainted with him for many years; in the course of my acquaintance with him, I had lent him 20 guineas, which I asked him to pay me, he told me he had got no money, but said, here are two Bank-notes, they will be as good in England as guineas; you may pay yourself, and bring me some goods; he mentioned some hats, razors, great buttons, and small buttons, and some cloth; I put them in my pocket, and when I was at Messrs. Van-Dyke and Co.'s office, I observed that a pilot, to whom one of the clerks paid a Bank-note, wrote something on the back of it, it occurred to me that the notes I received of Mr. Van-Haberbach had not any thing written upon them; I shewed one of them to Mr. Vint, and asked him if it was a good one, as Mr. Van-Haberbach had not written upon it, and Mr. Vint said it was, and shewed it to one of his clerks, who said the same; I could not tell whether it was a good one or not, never having seen a Bank-note before, excepting five, which I received from Mr. Hobbs, of Chichester, the last voyage before the present one, and the only time I was ever in England before.

JAN POP sworn. - Examined by Mr. Const. (The witness being a foreigner, an interpreter was sworn.) Q. What countryman are you? - A. Of the city of Antwerp.

Q.What are you? - A.An able seaman.

Q. Did you fail the last voyage with the prisoner? - A. Yes, I was with him at Dunkirk, and failed from thence with him.

Q. Do you know a man of the name of Van-Haverbach? - A. I know him by fight, I believe he is a clerk in the Marine-office.

Q. Did you see him at Dunkirk before you failed? - A. Yes.

Q. What part of Dunkirk? - A. I cannot exactly say where.

Q. Do you recollect where you saw him last? - A. About an hour before we failed from thence.

Q.Whereabouts was it that you saw him at that time? - A. Near by the ship.

Q. Did you hear or see any thing pass between the captain and Van-Haverbach? - A. The only thing that I saw was two papers given by Mr. Van-Haverbach to the captain, to purchase things.

Q. Do you know what these papers were? - A. As far as I could see they were two notes, but whether they were great or small I cannot tell.

Q.Have you seen Bank-notes before? - A. I never saw other notes, except one or two the captain shewed me at Chichester on board; how big they were I cannot tell.

Q. Where have you ever seen any notes before these you saw at Dunkirk? - A. I never saw any others than those that the captain shewed me at Chichester; I heard the captain say he had got two Bank-notes to purchase goods, and that is all I know about it.

Q. Did you see them open or folded up? - A. I did not observe whether they were open, or whether they were folded.

Q. Did you see enough of the Bank-notes to be able to describe them? - A. I cannot say whether they were large or small.

Cross-examined by Mr. Garrow. - Q. How many voyages have you failed with the captain? - A. This is the second voyage that I have been with him, one to Chichester, and one here.

Q.(To the witness without the interpreter.) Have you got any Bank-notes in the ship. - A. There are no Bank-notes in the ship.

Q. You can talk a little English? - (Answers in Dutch.)

Q. Do you mean to swear you cannot understand English a little, do you understand what I speak to you now, have you not talked in English about these Bank-notes with any body? - A.(The witness made no answer.)

Mr. Garrow. Q.Ask him, in his own language, if he has not talked about these notes in English, and I will prove by-and-by that he has? - A. I know of no Bank-notes, nor of nothing.

Q. Do you remember a gentleman coming on board the ship, and asking you about these Banknotes, and you answering him in English? - A.There was an English gentleman came on board, who spoke to me, but I did not understand him only by gestures.

Q. Did you understand by gestures, or answer by gestures? - A. I understood the word Banknote, and I bid him look and examine where he would.

Q. Did that gentleman ask you whether you knew of any Bank-notes being delivered to the captain abroad? - A.I have forgot, I cannot recollect.

Q. Did not you tell the gentleman you did not know any thing about any Bank-notes being delivered to the captain at Dunkirk? - A. I cannot tell what I said, or what I did not say, to that gentleman.

Q.What you did say, did you say in English? A. I made him answer, look what you want.

Q. You did not say any thing to the gentleman, that you did not know any thing about the captain having any Bank-notes at Dunkirk? - A. I do not retain it in my memory.

Q.When did you first say that you saw Van-Haberbach deliver Bank-notes to the prisoner? - A. I told it when I was at the solicitor's.

Q.Have you seen any Bank-notes lately, have you had any shewn to you lately by any body? - A. I saw a Bank-note at Mr. Van-Dyke's, when I went to receive money for provisions.

Q.Lately? - A. I cannot precisely recollect the time.

Q.Was it before the captain was taken up? - A. After the captain was taken up.

Q. Are these papers now shewn to you, (shewing him some pieces of written paper), like the papers that Van-Haberbach gave to the captain? - A. No, they are not Bank-notes, it is not of the same paper as Bank-notes.

Q. Did you ever see them unfolded at all? - A. Never in my life time.

JACOB MARIN sworn. - Examined by Mr. Knapp. I am one of the seamen belonging to the same ship with the last witness.

Q. Do you remember failing from Dunkirk with the captain? - A. Yes.

Q. Do you know a person of the name of Van-Haverbach? - A. I know him by sight.

Q. Do you remember seeing the captain and Van-Haverbach together at Dunkirk? - A. I only saw them together when the papers were given.

Q. Was Pop with you at that time? - A. Yes.

Q. Do you know what those papers were? - A. I only heard say they were Bank-notes.

Q. Who did you see give any papers? - A. Mr. Haverbach gave papers to the captain, he said, there are two Bank-notes, which I give you to purchase goods with.

Q. Did Van-Haverbach say in what country the goods were to be purchased? - A. I did not hear that.

Q. Have you ever seen the captain since he has been apprehended? - A. No, I have not.

PETER OVERT sworn. - Examined by Mr. Const.

Q. Did you fail from Dunkirk with the captain? - A. Yes.

Q. Do you know Mr. Haverbach, of Dunkirk? - A. I know him by sight.

Q. Did you see him with the captain before you failed? - A. Yes, upon the quay.

Q.What passed between Mr. Haverbach and the captain? - A. I saw him give the captain two Bankpapers to purchase goods with.

Q. Did you hear Haverbach call these papers by any particular name? - A. He called them Banknotes.

Q.Have you seen the captain, or had any conversation with him since he has been taken up? - A. I went once to him to carry him some linen.

Q. Do you know any thing more that passed between Haverbach and the captain? - A. Nothing more.

The prisoner called three Dutch captains, who had known him from twelve to twenty years, and gave him a good character.

GUILTY of uttering, knowing it to be forged , Death . (Aged 55.)

Tried by a Jury of half foreigners, before Mr. Baron THOMPSON .

View as XML