12th July 1797
Reference Numbert17970712-56
VerdictNot Guilty

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465. JOHN HINDES was indicted for forging and counterfeiting, on the 27th of May , a certain order for payment of money, purporting to be the order of William Cavendish upon Messrs. Pybus, Call, Grant and Hale, bankers , London, dated Yarmouth, 1st May, 1797. for the payment of five guineas to George Wilkinson, Esq. or bearer, for value received, with intention to defraud John

Pybus , Sir John Call , Bart. John Grant and Pagan Hale .

Second Count. For uttering and publishing the same as true, knowing it to be forged.

Third and fourth Counts. For like offences, with intention to detraud William Ortman .

WILLIAM ORTMAN sworn. - I am a butcher : On the 27th of May, the prisoner came to my shop, and asked me for some rump of beef, I told him I had not got any; he purchased a leg of mutton, a fillet of veal, and three pounds of gravy beef, it came to thirteen shillings and five pence, I gave him change out of a five guinea note which he gave me. (Produces the note). it is read.

No. 976. Yarmouth. No. 976.

Messrs. Pybus, Call, Grant and Co. bankers, London. Pay on demand, George Wilkinson , Esq. or bearet, the sum of five guineas, value received Yarmouth, 1st of May, 1797.

William Cavendish.

Five Guineas. Entered, J. Jones.

Q. Did you ever get that note paid? - A. No; I carried it to Messrs. Pybus and Company, and they said they did not know any such parties.

Q. Do you know any thing of the prisoner? - A. He told me he lived with one Mr. Atkinson, in Park-street, but that was not true, he did not say in what capacity; my man took the meat with him to take it home; he wrote the name, John Atkinson , at the back of it, as his master's name; I went to Mr. Atkinson's as soon as my man came back.

Q. Did you find the prisoner there? - A. No.

Cross-examined by Mr. Alley. Q. You had never seen the prisoner before this day? - A. No.

Q. What time in the day was it? - A. About half past four or half past five.

Q. It was between four and five? - A. No; between half past four and six, I am sure.

JOHN MONRTON sworn. - I am servant to the last witness; I went with the prisoner at the bar, into Queen-street, Westminster, with some meat, he went into a private-house in Queen-street, and gave me directions to take the meat to No.3, in Park-street, Mr. Atkinson's; when I came there, there was no such meat ordered, nor thev knew nothing of the prisoner; from Park-street I went to this house in Queen-street again, and he was gone; they said they did not know any thing of him.

CHARLES GUBBINS sworn. - I am clerk to Messrs. Pybus, Call, Grant and Hale.

Q. Look at that note, and tell us if you have any correspondence with any house of that name? - A. This is a bill that was tendered to me by Ortman, on the 27th of May; I told him it was a forged note, and that we knew none of the parties; we had no correspondence at Yarmouth, nor did we know any of the parties.

Q. You have not any correspondence at Yarmouth, nor are you acquainted with any such names? - A. No, we are not.

Cross-examined by Mr. Alley. Q. I suppose all you mean to say is, that you have no correspondence with any such person at Yarmouth? - A. Yes.

Court. Q. Is there any body here that has been at Yarmouth? - A. No.

Prisoner's defence. As I am in the presence of God, these witnesses are mistaken with regard to my person, as I hope to prove by upright and just witnesses.

Mr. Alley contended that it was essentially necessary to prove the non-existence of such a person at Yarmouth.

Mr. Justice Buller. We are now upon a question of evidence, and it must go to the Jury-let us see how the case stands:-here is a bill drawn by a person at Yarmouth, who prosesses himself to be a correspondent of Pybus, Call, and Company; a witness is called, who is a clerk in their house, and he swears that they had no such correspondent; then it is not a genuine bill, and what it imports to be.

Mr. Alley. Taking it that the instrument is a false instrument, then the prosecutors are to prove the averment.

Mr. Justice Buller. They prove that there is no man of the name of Cavendish corresponding with that house.

Mr. Alley. it is not the best evidence that the nature of the case will admit of, because they might have brought a person here from Yarmouth.

Mr. Justice Buller. The witness has proved that no such man corresponds with their house, that is a fact positively sworn to.

Mr. Alley. (To Ortman). I think you said before the Magistrate, that the person who called at your house, had his hair well dressed and powdered? - A. I did not.

Q. Did not you say his hair was powdered? - A. No.

For the Prisoner.

GEORGE GREATHEAD sworn. - Examined by Mr. Alley. Do you know the prisoner at the bar? - Yes.

Q. Where do you live? - A. I keep the sign of the Goat, in Stafford-street.

Q. Tell us if you recollect at any particular time, and when, seeing the prisoner at your house? - A. On Saturday the 27th of May.

Court. (To Ortman.) Q. What time was it when the prisoner came to you? - A. I cannot speak nearer than from four to six; he was with me a quarter of an hour, or twenty minutes.

Q. How far is it from Queen-street to your

house? - A. About as far as from here to the top of Newgate-street.

Q. Have you any doubt about the person of the man? - A. I am positive to the man.

Court. (To Monkton.) Q. Do you remember what time it was when you went with the meat to Queen-street? - A. A little after five, I walked with him; he said he was going to drink a pint of porter.

Q. Did you walk and converse with him the whole way? - A. Yes.

Q. How long did you wait at the door in Queen-street? - A. About three minutes; he desired me to go to Park-street, and he would be home in three minutes.

Q. Did he stay no longer than to say that? - A. No longer.

Q. How soon after did you see the prisoner again? - A. On Monday the 29th; I took him in Pall-Mall.

Q. Did you meet him by accident? - A. Yes.

Q. (To Ortman.) When did you see him after he was taken? - A. My man brought him down to my house.

Jury. Q. Was he in the same dress then as when he purchased the meat? - A. No; on the Saturday he had half-boots on, and a white jacket and apron; he was all in a bustle as if he was just come off a journey.

Court. (To Monkton.) Q. Did you see him when he was bargaining with your master? - A. No; only about five minutes before he went.

Mr. Alley. Q. You do not recollect the person of every stranger that comes to buy a joint of meat? - A. I cannot say.

Q. If I was to buy a joint of meat at your house, you would not know me again? - A. I think I should, any body might know you again; I am positive of him.

Q. Did you think you should recollect any other stranger that was there that day? - A. I cannot say.

Q. When you met him he had two friends with him, I believe? - A. Yes.

Q. And he went with you readily, with his friends, and you had nobody with you? - A. Yes.

Q. And he did not attempt to escape? - A. No; I would have taken care that he should not.

Q. Had he powder in his hair on the Saturday? - A. Yes, he had.

Q. Was his hair tied? - A. No, loose.

Mr. Alley. (To Greatbead.) Q. Do you recollect seeing the prisoner at any time before this indictment was preferred? - A. Yes, on the 27th of May; he came into my house about half past three o'clock in the afternoon, and staid there, in company, till about six, or about ten minutes after six; he went out along with one William Fenwick, he returned again to my house a little before nine, in company with the same William Fenwick.

Court. Q. Who was in your house at the same time? - A. John Lee, William Fenwick, and a servant of Lord Macdonald's, came in a little before four, he staid there till about six o'clock.

Q. Where were you while they were there? - A. In the tap-room and the bar.

Q. How came you to know he was in your house at that time? - A. About a quarter before four, the boy always takes some beer to a shop in the neighbourhood, I asked him where he was going with that beer, and he said Mr. Fenwick and Mr. Hindes; and I am sure he was there before that, because I had spoke to him.

Q. How do you know he was there till six? - A. I was writing a letter to my brother at Egham, and I heard the bell go, it goes a quarter before six; I sent my boy after the bell-man with a penny, and instead of giving it to the bell-man he had put it in the Penny post-office; I asked him why he was gone so long; and he said the Post-office was half way up Bond-street; I sent him to get it back again, he got it, and I gave it to the bell-man; it was then past six, and while he was gone, Mr. Hindes and Mr. Lee, and Lord Macdonald's servant, were conversing about the letter, and offered to lay a wager it would go just as safe being put into the Penny-post, as if it had been given to the bell-man.

Q. Where were you all this time? - A. I had never been out of the house, I was no where but in the bar, and in the tap-room.

Q. Between the time of sending out the beer to this neighbour, and sending out the letter, had you seen the prisoner frequently? - A. Yes; he sat down directly under the dial, facing the bar-door.

Q. Do you mean to say, that during that time, he never went out? - A. I never missed him all that time, to the best of my knowledge; I do not think he could have gone out without my seeing him.

Q. How do you know it was Saturday, the 27th of May? - A. Because Mr. Hindes was taken up the very Monday after, and I had received an answer from my brother, that very morning, I have his letter with me. (Produces it).

Mr. Alley. Q. Do you recollect whether the prisoner was dressed in a jacket, or a coat, that day? - A. A coat.

Q. Did he wear powder that day? - A. No.

Q. Did you ever see him in powder? - A. Never in my life.

WILLIAM FENWICK sworn. - Examined by Mr. Alley. I live with Mr. Caldwell, No. 9, Upper Wimpole-street: On the 27th of May, It was in company with the prisoner, from a little before four, till half past ten in the evening; we were at

Mr. Greathead's till a little past six; from thence to Hyde-park; I had only been three days in town, and he went to shew me the places about; we went past the Serpentine River, into Kensington-gardens, within one hundred yards of the Palace; when we left there, it was between seven and eight o'clock, and we came down slowly to Mr. Greathead's, in Stafford-street, and stopped till half past ten.

Court. Q. What time did you get to Greathead's? - A. About half past eight, or a quarter before nine; he went away about half past ten to his lodgings.

Mr. Alley. Q. Had he hair-powder that day? - A. No.

Court. Q. Who was in your company at Mr. Greathead's? - A. I was a stranger; I do not know their names, there were two people there, Mr. Greathead himself was in the house.

Q. Were their names mentioned? - A. I do not recollect.

Q. How do you know it was a little before four that you went into Mr. Greathead's? - A. He was apprehended so shortly after, that I perfectly recollect the time; Mr. Greathead had sent his boy with a letter, and he had put it into the wrong post, the bell-man was then going about.


Court. Gentlemen of the Jury, it being a case of so much doubt, I do not think it necessary to go any further; it is certainly to be imputed merely to mistake.

Mr. Alley. I have five other witnesses to that fact.


Tried by the first Middlesex Jury, before Mr. Justice LAWRENCE.

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