23rd May 1787
Reference Numbert17870523-21

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469. DANIEL HANDS was indicted for feloniously receiving, on the 11th day of April last, four bushels of coals, value 3 s. the property of Thomas Scott , Esq . (whereof Thomas Larney and William Shaw , at the last sessions, were convicted of stealing) knowing the same to have been stolen .

(The witnesses examined separate.)

Mr. Shelton, clerk of the arraigns, produced a copy of the record of the conviction of Thomas Larney and William Shaw , which was read and examined by Mr. Garrow and Mr. Schoen prisoners Counsel.


I live at No. 71, in Old-street-road , on the opposite side of the way to Hands.

What is the prisoner Hands? - He is a master dust-man , keeps six or seven carts, and employs men to collect dust about the metropolis; on the 11th of April, which was Wednesday, in the Easter week, between one and two, I was looking out of my window, there was one of this Hands' carts loaded with dust returning home; there was a stoppage; he could not get admittance till there was a vacancy; there were other carts belonging, and the property of Mr. Hands; I saw a couple of brick carts loaded with coals, coming down the road; and as I passed, this dust cart was still in the road, ready to drive into Hands' yard; Hands came out and bid the man return to his duty into the yard; he bid him return to his work; what answer the servant made to his master, I cannot pretend to ascertain, but he repeated again, I say, go to your work; the man immediately returned into the yard; Mr. Hands with his pipe (he was smoking) followed these two carts; they drove up against each other at the White Hart door; the baskets were left on the outside of the publick-house; the two carmen, Larney and Shaw and the prisoner, went into this publick-house, and they staid some time, it may be about five minutes or six, I will not pretend to ascertain; they came out again, then Shaw, who was one of the car-men belonging to Thoman Scott , Esq. took these empty baskets which were on the outside of the door, and carried them into the White Hart publick house; after that, the two carmen came out, Larney gets up into the hindmost cart, fronting the publick-house, and he took a very large coal out of the cart, and handed it to Shaw that stood at the tail on the ground, and as Larney handed it to Shaw, he chucked it into the publick-house, which I imagine must be received by some one person, but who, I do not know; after they had removed coals out of the first cart, in the manner I have related, Larney got out of the first cart into the second cart, and handed coals out of that likewise; Shaw received the coals out of the second cart, and chucked them into the White Hart; and when they had so done, Larney got out of the cart; the men went into the publick-house, which Mr. Hands was in already; after that, in about five or six minutes, these two carmen came out and drove away the carts; on seeing this, I stepped down stairs, followed the carts and took the numbers of them; the numbers were 21000, the other, 12508; there was wrote on them, Thomas Scott , Hoxton; I returned home again, and I saw one of the servants of Hands; the same servant that challenged the man for taking his baskets out of the cart; I do not know his name.

Mr. Garrow. Was Hands present? - I take it Hands was in the publick-house; his servants came out of the publick-house, with baskets of coals loaded; highly piled with large coals; I saw him go into his master's yard, and there I imagine he placed them, for he returned again empty handed.

Jury. Are you sure his master was in the publick-house? - I saw him go in, but I did not see him come out; the man returned from his master's yard; after he came out of the White Hart, he came again with another basket of coals, and he carried them likewise into his master's yard, and I kept my eye and was attentive if I could see any

thing of a removal of these coals, which I did not; I was so attentive as that, till the men had all done work and shut up the gates and they went about their business.

You was a witness on the former indictment? - Yes.

Are these the same coals which you talk of, for which Larney and Shaw were convicted on the last sessions? - Undoubtedly they are, and I gave proper information.


I keep the White Hart publick-house, in Old-street-road; the prisoner lives near me, within about four or five doors.

Do you remember his being at your house on the 11th of April? - Yes, I had been very ill of a fever and cold, and that was the first time of my coming down; I was not examined at the former trial; some carts were at the door; I did not see whose cart it was; I do not know what were in the carts; that gentleman came for change for a guinea; I went to the bar and I saw this Mr. Daniel Hands in the passage by the door, with some coals laying by him; the coals were carried into the yard by him or somebody belonging to him; and they were carried out again by Larney.

Mr. Garrow. By whom? - By a man who went by the name of mad Tom; I did not see the prisoner carry it; the coals went on the shoulders of a man whom the prisoner employed; Hands came into the yard, and said to me, Trevet, there is a backer for you, (that means a large coal) and the men had a pot of beer, and I was to put it to the prisoner.

Court. Was the prisoner in the passage with these men at the same time that they took away the coals? - When I saw the prisoner, there was nobody in the passage but a gentleman that wanted change; at the time his servant took the coals away, they were both together in my yard; the coals were in the yard.

Did you hear him give any directions or say any thing to him? - None at all.

How did the man carry them? - On his shoulders.

Who conveyed it on? - I did not see.

Mr. Garrow. The man carried them publickly? - Yes.

The prisoner is a dustman, and of course sells breeze and soil to brick-makers? - I know he dealt with Mr. Scott for these articles, to the amount of 20 l. or 30 l. a week.

Then I fancy it was not very uncommon for him to treat Mr. Scott's men with a drop of drink? - They had often pots of beer, for which I believe the prisoner often paid.

How long may you have known the prisoner to be dealing with Mr. Scott at that rate? - I have not known the prisoner a long time.

You knew all this that you have told, last sessions? - Yes.

But you was not here last sessions? - No.

Can you help us to any reason, why the prisoner was not indicted last sessions? - No, Sir, not at all.

You do not know of any dispute that may have taken place lately between the prisoner and any body about breeze and soil? - The prisoner was a good civil sort of a man.

Court. You say the coals were in your yard? - Yes.

Was the prisoner present at the time the servant carried the coals away? - The prisoner came out of the yard behind the servant; I did not see where the coals were carried.

Mr. Garrow. You made no objection to it? - I could make no objection.

You was not told to keep this a secret? - No.


I was in the publick house, the White Hart, on the 11th of April; the landlord happened to be at dinner and I dined there; after we had dined, I was standing up at his bar, and I saw a man come in at the door next Old-street-road, with a coal either on his head or shoulder, and he

threw it into a basket that stood adjacent to the door; I knew not where he brought it from, nor I saw no more of it after; Mr. Hands was at the door when it was brought in.


Mr. Garrow. Where do you come from now? - I was confined, because I could not get sufficient bail; I came from Bridewell.

What are you in custody for? - I was there to come here.

Have not you been convicted of felony, for stealing these coals? - No.

Court. You was there to be forth-coming to give evidence? - Yes.

Not charged with any crime? - No, I was a servant to Mr. Hands.

What happened on the 11th of April? - On the 11th of April, in the afternoon, I came home with my load of dust to my master's yard; I could not get into the yard; this Shaw and Larney were coming by at the same time; they took my baskets off my cart; I says to Shaw, you have no business with those baskets; I shall not pay a pot of beer for you; because if we do not take the things into the yard we are liable to pay a pot of beer; my master came to me at the gate and bid me go along and mind my business; afterwards he went to the White Hart; he followed the carts there; I waited the spaae of a quarter of an hour; I went to my master and desired him to come into the yard to shoot the load of dust; he said, he would come; but he did not come according to his promise; I went to him again afterwards; he gave me orders to go and shoot my load of dust; after I had shot it, I went to him again and asked him, whether I should put my cart on the outside of the gate, or in the yard; he asked me to drink out of a pot, I believe there might be a gill of brandy or hardly so much; then he came out of the tap room and took me into the yard belonging to Mr. Trevet; he says to me, take these two baskets of coals and put them into my yard.

What baskets? - Bushel and half baskets; they were the baskets that I had in my cart before, that my master directed Larney and Shaw to take them into the White Hart; there was coals in the baskets, but when I had them before, there was nothing in them; put them out, says he, take this basket of coals home to my yard; there was a great coal in particular, the basket would not hold it; he put it down by the side of the water tub; says he, that is for Mr. Trevet; after I took them coals home to where my master ordered me, I returned into the stable, and carried both these baskets pursuant to my master's directions, into the back yard; I directly unharnessed the horse, and rode him down and saw no more about the coals.

Mr. Garrow. So they only sent you to Bridewell because you had not a better lodging? - Yes.

How long have you been in Bridewell? - I believe I have been there about fourteen days.

Why, you was taken up for stealing these coals was not you? - No.

Which other of your good deeds was you taken up for? - Because I could not get sufficient bail.

Bail for what? - Bail for my appearance.

Has friend Trevet supported you in gaol? - No, Sir.

Who did? - I had money sent me.

Belike you can tell who sent it? - No, Sir.

How much has been sent you during this fortnight? - I cannot rightly tell, I believe about twelve shillings.

Now try your hand at recollection, who sent it you upon your oath, did not Trevet send it you? - No Sir, upon my oath, he has not sent me any, I believe it was Mr. Clarkson.

Pray, might you carry any of those coals home to your own lodging? - No Sir, none at all.

That you swear positively? - Yes, nor to no other place but the prisoner's yard, I believe I have worked for him about three or four months.

Did Mr. Scott use to deal with him? - Yes, for breeze and soil.

Pretty largely? - I do not know how much a week; he had large dealings; as fast as he could make the cinders into ashes, Mr. Scott was ready to take them from him.

How many of you honest men might your master keep? - There were eight of us to fetch the dust, besides the people we employed in the yard, and seven or eight carts.

Do you know Tom Dean ? - Yes, Sir.

Mad Tom? - Mad Tom Sir; he was not a fellow labourer of mine then; he was before this matter happened.

Now will you venture to say, that you did not carry any of these coals to your lodging? - Sir, I will say, that I did carry none of Mr. Scott's coals, no further than my master's yard.

Upon your oath, did you carry none of these coals home? - No, Sir, I did not carry any of them home.

Did any body else but you, carry any home? - No Sir, not at all.

Have not you been whipped for stealing Mr. Scott's coals? - No.

Will you swear that you have never been whipped for felony? - Yes Sir, I have.

Where was it they whipped you? - I cannot tell that.

Come recollect the last time? - You ask me so many questions.

How long is it since you was whipped the last time? - If you ask me proper questions, I shall answer them.

That is a proper question, and you must answer it? - It is not a proper question.

How long was it ago? - That I cannot tell.


I know nothing but apprehending the prisoners that were convicted for the felony; I know the prisoner; Armstrong apprehended him.


I apprehended the prisoner Hands; on Thursday, the 10th of May; I had a warrant to apprehend him; he was drinking at Mr. Trevet's, the White Hart, in Old-street; he was under confinement; as he was going to gaol, he said in the coach, he was surprised to see Mr. Trevet come to speak before the Justice, for he had left Mr. Trevet two coals, and he had four.

Court. Had you told him, to induce him to make this confession, that he should not be prosecuted, or receive favour, or any thing of that kind? - No, it was his own talk; he had his hearing.

Mr. Garrow. He knew you was an officer; I ask you, it is a tender question now and then; did he at all confess that he received them, knowing them to be stolen? - No Sir; he said, he wondered that Trevet should speak, for he had left two coals at Trevet's, and he had four.

Did not he constantly profess his innocence? - He certainly did; he never confessed himself guilty, any more than these words.

Have you known Mr. Trevet much? - Yes Sir, he lived in our parish; I never saw the last witness till I apprehended him.

You locked him up directly? - The moment I took him into custody, says he, I will not suffer myself to be served as the other two men were, for I will go before the Justice and tell the whole truth, for I am a servant, and what I did, was by my master's orders; but my orders were to take him away and not let him speak to any body, which I did; he has been in custody ever since.

Prisoner. I am innocent.


Transported for fourteen years .

Tried by the first Middlesex Jury before Mr. Baron PERRYN.

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