Offence: Sexual Offences > sodomy
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535. (M.) ROBERT JONES was indicted for feloniously making an assault on Francis Henry Hay , an infant of the age of thirteen years , and, against the order of nature, carnally did know the said Francis Henry Hay , and with the said Francis Henry did commit that
Q. How old are you?
Hay. I shall be thirteen next January.
Q. I suppose you can say your catechism?
Q. What are you sworn for, are you to tell the truth?
Q. What do you know against the prisoner?
Hay. I was walking up St. Martin's Lane, I believe on Tuesday.
Q. Did you go to school?
Hay. Yes, I did. I live with my uncle a jeweller in Parliament Street. I met Capt. Jones the prisoner, in St. Martin's Lane; he told me he had a buckle to mend.
Q. How long is that ago?
Q. Had you ever been in company with him before?
Hay. No; he always used to look at me, and give me halfpence when he met me; he pulled down my breeches and then his own.
Q. Was not you frightened at this?
Hay. Yes, I was a little. He set me in an elbow chair; he set me down and kissed me a little; then he made me lay down with my face on the chair, and so he came behind me; he put his c - k into my b - e.
Q. Did you submit to it quietly, or make any resistance?
Hay. I submitted to it quietly.
Q. How long might he keep it in your b - e?
Hay. About five minutes I believe.
Q. Was he quite in?
Hay. A little.
Q. Was he in at all?
Q. Did you find any thing come from him?
Hay. Some wet stuff that was white; I wiped it off.
Q. Can you describe to the jury how far it was in your body?
Q. What did you wipe the wet off with?
Hay. My shirt.
Q. You are sure it was in you?
Q. What did he do after this?
Hay. He spouted some on the ground.
Q. Did he spout some into your b - e?
Q. What did he do after this?
Hay. He set me down in the elbow chair, kissed me a little, and gave me some halfpence, about a groat, and told me not to tell any body.
Q. How long did you stay?
Hay. About half an hour.
Q. Did he attempt to do any thing more to you?
Hay. No, not then.
Q. Was any body in the house besides?
Q. How came you not to cry out?
Hay. I was ashamed.
Q. Had ever any body served you in this manner before?
Q. Did you tell your uncle, or any body, when you came home?
Q. How soon did you go again?
Hay. He desired me to come next day; I went; he unbuttoned my breeches again, and then his own.
Q. What time did you go next day?
Hay. About eleven o'clock; he made me rub his c - k up and down till some white stuff came again.
Q. At the time he put his - into your b - e, it was stiff and hard, was it?
Q. Did he attempt any thing behind then?
Q. How long did you stay with him then?
Hay. About ten minutes.
Q. You quietly submitted to all that?
Hay. Yes; he gave me the buckle and some halfpence then, and desired me to come again next day; I went next day about eleven o'clock, he told me to come at eleven; he unbuttoned his breeches again, and mine too; he did the same again that time as he did the last day.
Q. When did you discover this?
Hay. I was taken very ill after this; I was ill a week; I had a pain in my thighs and legs that I could not stand. About a fortnight ago, after I was well, he came to the shop one day, and looked on the show glasses; he did not speak to me, I was serving a customer; he bespoke a shirt buckle of my uncle; it was to be sent home
Q. When you went so willingly two days together after the first offence was committed, how came you to make the objection to go now?
Hay. I was afraid he would serve me the same thing again.
Q. How came you to object to go now and not before?
Hay. He told me not to tell of it, and I was ashamed; the reason was because I was so ill.
Q. Did you think you had been doing a wrong thing?
Hay. Yes; as soon as he left the shop I told Mr. Rapley of it; he is a jeweller in Tottenham-court-road; directly after I had spoke to my uncle.
Q. What time was it the captain came to look at the shew glass?
Hay. About twelve o'clock.
Q. How came you to tell Mr. Rapley, and not tell your uncle?
Hay. I was ashamed to tell my uncle.
Q. Did you go there before dinner?
Q. Did you tell your uncle the whole story, how he had served you these three times?
Hay. I told him what he had done to me the first time, but not the three last times.
Q. How came you to tell it now, when you kept it a secret so long.
Hay. I thought I would tell of it all the while, but I was ashamed.
Q. Did you think you had been doing a wrong thing with him.
Q. Then how came you to go of your own accord the second and third times?
Hay. I thought my uncle might get business by it.
Q. Where does your mother live?
Hay. In Tavistock-street.
Q. Had you seen her often?
Q. How came you not to tell her?
Hay. I was ashamed.
Q. How long had you been acquainted with Mr. Rapley?
Hay. About a year.
Q. Was you very intimate with him?
Q. Did you tell it any body else?
Hay. Yes; the next day after I had told Mr. Rapley, I told Mr. Brast.
Q. Are you intimate with him?
Q. Do you know what trade he is?
Q. How soon after you told them was Capt, Jones taken up.
Hay. That was about a week.
Q. Had you or your friends been with the captain after you made this discovery?
Q. When you discovered this to Mr. Brest first, did you discover the whole of the transaction?
Hay. The whole of it.
Q. Did any thing more happen than what you have told us now?
Q. Had you ever seen him before you met him in St. Martin's Lane?
Q. That was the day you went home to his lodgings?
Q. Did you see any body there?
Hay. No body up stairs?
Q. Any body below.
Hay. Yes; the mistress of the house.
Q. Was it a shop?
Q. And other people there?
Hay. I saw no body else.
Q. How long do you think you was there?
Hay. Half an hour, I believe.
Q. The mistress of the house saw you come in?
Q. Did the mistress of the house see you go out again?
Q. You said nothing I suppose to her?
Q. Nor had no marks of having been crying, or any thing of that?
Q. You did not call out, or cry out, did you?
Q. You knew the woman of the house was below stairs, and if you did call, it would be heard?
Q. You said he put his c - into your b - e?
Q. Did he hurt you?
Hay. A little.
Q. Was it against your b - e or in?
Hay. In a little way.
Q. Who washed your linen?
Hay. One Mrs. Jerret that washes for the family.
Q. You never heard any thing of your linen being taken notice of?
Q. You found no inconvenience afterwards, was you sore?
Q. Where was you sore?
Hay. I straddled as I walked.
Q. That was never taken notice of by your uncle, or any body in the family, was it ever mentioned?
Court. Did you find yourself sore after the first time you was at the captain's lodgings?
Hay. Yes, directly afterwards.
Q. You say you wiped something from your b - e with your shirt?
Q. And it was white?
Q. You said the captain squirted something on the ground?
Hay. Yes, he did; not much; that was white.
Q. What part did you wipe it off of?
Hay. About my thigh.
Court. Did you find any wet come from him while in your b - e? You must remember you are on your oath, and the prisoner's life is at stake on what you are saying, therefore don't say any thing that is not strictly true; where did you wipe the wet from?
Hay. From the hole.
Court. You are sure of that?
Q. How came you to say it was on your thigh?
Hay. Yes, it was on my thigh on the hole.
Q. Was your soreness over before you was taken ill.
Hay. No, I had it all the while I was ill.
Q. How soon after this was you taken ill?
Hay. About a week afterwards.
Q. Did any surgeon attend you?
Hay. No I got well in a week.
Q. That illness was pains in your thighs and legs?
Q. What did you say to your relations about it?
Hay. I thought it was the cramp.
Q. When was the captain taken up?
Hay. A week after I told Mr. Rapley.
Q. What did you tell Mr. Rapley?
Hay. I told him I was going up St. Martin's lane.
Q. Did you tell him the same story as you have told here now?
Hay. I told him as to the first time.
Q. Did you tell what was done to you the first time?
Q. And it was a week after that, that Capt. Jones was taken up?
Q. Can you account for it, why he was not taken up for a whole week after your telling this story?
Hay. I do not understand it?
Q. You are sure you told Mr. Rapley the same story as now?
Hay. Yes; my uncle was backwards, and as soon he came into the shop, he told my uncle what a sad affair had happened?
Q. The first time you told Mr. Rapley, did you go to his shop, or tell him at your uncle's shop?
Hay. In my un cle's shop.
Q. How long had the captain been gone at that time?
Hay. I believe about five minutes.
Q. How long is it ago that you told this story to Mr. Rapley?
Hay. A fortnight ago.
Q. Do you know when he was taken up?
Hay. Last Tuesday.
Q. If you had been hurt the first time, how came you to go the second?
Hay. Because he always used to give me money?
Q. Had you no shame nor remorse?
Hay. I was quite ashamed of it when I was with him?
Q. But when you went the second time?
Hay. I went for the buckles, he ordered me to come for them.
Q. Did you see the mistress of the house the second time?
Q. You went up stairs?
Hay. Yes, and then he locked the room door.
Q. Did you ask the mistress of the house if he was at home?
Q. Do you say that on a perfect knowledge of what you are saying?
Q. Was any hour appointed for you to come?
Hay. Yes, eleven o'clock.
Q. And it was three weeks before you discovered it?
Q. Did you ever meet him before?
Hay. Yes; in St. Martin's-lane and he gave me 2 d.
Q. Do you recollect that ever you saw him before the Tuesday you went to his house?
Q. And afterwards during the three weeks you saw him?
Q. How has the boy behaved himself since he lived with you?
Mercer. Very well; he has been a good boy.
Q. What is his character for veracity?
Mercer. Very good.
Q. He is not a lying boy is he?
Q. You have not caught him in lies?
Mercer. No; when I came in with Mr. Rapley, I saw the boy behind the counter; Mr. Jones was looking into the shew-glass; I told the boy, there was his friend Mr. Jones; I asked him why he did not speak to him; he said he did not like it, and made several evasions, he was ashamed and such as that, which I thought was the boy's bashfulness; the captain afterwards came in, looked at the shirt buckles, and bespoke one; I was to send it home: after which, the boy said he hoped I would carry it home myself; I asked him, why? his reply was, that perhaps I should get some more of the captain's business by so doing. I went out of the shop backwards.
Q. When was this?
Mercer. I believe about a fortnight ago; when I came back, Mr. Rapley said, the boy had been ill used, he believed there had been an attempt to commit buggery upon him.
Q. If this discovery was made a fortnight ago, how came you to stay so long before you took the captain up?
Mercer. The next day Mr. Brest called upon me; I thought it proper to communicate it to him sooner than any body else, I did not tell it to him, because I did not know the story; I rather chose the boy might tell it another person, then me, as I thought he might be ashamed, and not tell me the truth. I told the gentleman, he said he was going further and would call again, and desired me to bid the boy tell him all the truth. He came, and the boy did; then he told my father (the boy's grandfather) of it; after that we went to one of the justice's of the peace.
Q. How soon was the application to the magistrate after this discovery?
Mercer. Two or three days.
Q. What justice was the application made to?
Mercer. Justice Mercer.
Q. The captain was not taken up till last Tuesday I believe.
Mercer. No, Mr. Mercer desired we might consider minutely on it, and not do any thing rashly.
Q. Was you present when the captain was apprehended?
Mercer. No; I was at the justice's.
Q. You did not discover any awkwardness in the boy's gate?
Mercer. Yes, he walked lamish.
Q. What immediately?
Mercer. No; I believe about a week, the Sunday after.
Q. He had a general pain all over his limbs.
Q. He complained of a pain in his feet, thighs and legs?
Q. The boy had a good education?
Q. Can he read and write?
Q. Is he a sensible boy?
Mercer. Yes, rather so than otherwise.
Q. Has he told this story pretty much the same to all of you?
Mercer. Yes he has; he has told it to me, Mr. Brest and Mr. Rapley.
Q. I suppose his linen was washed before this discovery?
Mercer. Yes, a long time.
Q. You never heard that any blood was found on his shirt?
Mercer. No; I never heard any thing of it?
Q. You have heard the boy's story here; did
Mercer. As near as I can recollect.
Q. Did he tell the story to you, that the captain was in his body?
Q. And that he wiped some wet off?
Mercer. He did not tell that to me, I heard it from others that he told it; I rather chose he should tell the story to other people.
Q. Do you say you never observed any aukwardness in his gate till the pains in his legs; and when he went these days to the captain, you did not observe any thing of it?
Court. I suppose you know you evidence, if the jury believe it, may take away the life of the prisoner; consider his life is at stake; I ask you if what you have said is true?
Hay. Yes, it is true every word of it?
Court. Do you conceal nothing?
Hay. I have told all the whole truth.
- Rapley. I was in the shop when Capt. Jones bespoke a shirt buckle.
Q. I believe Mr. Mercer went backwards after the captain was gone?
Q. Who was in the shop?
Rapley. The boy and me; the boy expressed a wish; (I believe that was his word;) "I wish my uncle would not let me carry the buckle home." I asked him, why? he would not answer me; I repeated the question several times; he said then, he was ashamed.
Q. How long was it before he did tell you?
Rapley. It was two or three minutes before I got any thing from him, then he said the captain hurt him.
Q. Did he cry or any thing?
Rapley. No, he turned his head from me; I asked him how he hurt him; he still persisted he was ashamed; I insisted on knowing how he hurt him, otherwise I would inform his uncle; he then, after my further persisting in knowing it, said he would tell me, if I would promise not to tell his uncle, but still evaded it; I then shifted on it that I would tell his uncle, and get him to hear the story from him; he then told me, that after meeting the captain in St. Martin's-lane, he went home with him, took him on his knee, unbottoned his breeches, and unbuttoned his own, and hurt him that way: I asked him how; he then said, with his c - k: I asked him, where; he persisted he was ashamed; I then called it by the vulgar name of a - e; he said he hurt him there, by shoving against him; I asked if it was there, he said, yes. I asked him if he had ever been there after that time.
Q. Did he say any thing about any wet?
Rapley. I did not question him as to that, neither did he mention that to me.
Q. Did he say where he shoved him, or how he laid him down?
Rapley. He did not tell me of laying him down.
Q. Did he say how long he stayed with the captain the first time?
Rapley. He said he was there some time, that the captain locked the door as soon as he got in; and he had been there two or three times besides. I asked him if he ever served him so again; he said he always took his breeches down, likewise his own, but no further.
Q. Have you been frequent in the boy's company?
Rapley. Yes; by seeing him at his uncle's.
Q. Do you know whether he is a boy of veracity or used to tell lies?
Rapley. I never knew him any other then to tell truth.
Q. When he gave you this account, he said only that he had shoved against him?
Rapley. And hurt him by shoving.
Q. He said nothing of his penetrating his body?
Rapley. I did not ask him, nor he did not tell me.
Q. You heard nothing of this story of the wet?
Rapley. I have heard it but not at that time.
Court. When did you hear that first?
Rapley. After having informed the uncle, he set a friend, Mr. Brest, to enquire more particularly of the boy. The uncle coming into the shop, at the time I had heard from the boy what I have related, prevented my further enquiry.
Q. From his account, by what you told the uncle, you thought it an attempt only?
Q. Is he a boy of veracity?
Brest. I know he used to tell the truth if he had committed any little fault in the family, if asked to tell the truth afterwards.
Q. You was desired by the uncle to examine him respecting this charge of Capt. Jones. I believe; when was that?
Brest. Last Tuesday was se'ennight I examined the boy, at his uncle's.
Court. Tell the story particularly.
Brest. I had business with Mr. Robinson, in Parliament-street; I called on Mr. Mercer to ask him how he did; he told me a terrible accident had happened, and gave me a little item of it; he said the party was Capt. Jones, who appeared in the character of Punch at the Masquerade. I told him I was going farther, and would call again; he said in the intermediate time, he would speak to the boy, and order him to tell me nothing but the truth. I called again on my return, and took the boy into the parlour; we were by ourselves. I asked him if he knew there was a God; he told me, yes. (I know the family is a religious one, and the boy is obliged to go with them to church every Sunday, and is afterwards kept at home to read his catechism and the like.) I asked him, if he knew the consequence of telling a lie? he told me, yes; I said do you know what you are going to say? he said, yes; he was going to say nothing but the truth. I said if you call God to witness to an action that you are going to tell against Mr. Jones, it is either truth or a lie; the consequence of it will be, you will terminate either his fate or your happiness, and be particular. I told him as he began his story again, that bad people went to hell, and good people to heaven. I mentioned these things by way of caution to him, that he might utter nothing but truth. He then told me Capt. Jones met him in St. Martin's-lane, and told him to go home with him, that he had a buckle to mend; that he went; Capt. Jones locked the door as he went in. Capt. Jones pulled down his breeches and his own; that he took him on his knee, (to the best of my knowledge;) put his hand on his c - k, and took the boy's hands and put them on his own, and rubbed it till some wet stuff came; that he then, on the wet stuff coming from him, kissed him; that he turned the boy; I believe the boy told me the intermediate time of that was about ten minutes; he turned him on his face in an elbow chair; he then put his c - k to his a - e hole, that was the language of the boy; that he there pushed, and made it hurt him; that he got off presently, and that there was wet, which he wiped off with the tail of his shirt. I asked him if the captain's - was in his body; his answer was, he found it hurt him. I asked him particularly at that time, whether he found it in him; he said it hurt him exceedingly, that he could not walk, and he believed it was; I then interrogated him very minutely, respecting its being in him; he said it was, and hurt him, and that he wanted to strike him, or push him away, or to that effect.
Q. Then he said positively it was in him, did he?
Brest. Yes; and he said the wet was at his a - e hole, and he wiped it off with the tail of his shirt. I cannot remember whether he said he himself put his breeches up, or whether the prisoner did.
Q. Did he tell you how long he was there at that time.
Brest. Half an hour to the best of my knowledge; that then the prisoner gave him four pence, I think, and a halfpenny; that the prisoner desired him not to tell any body, but bid him come again in the morning. The boy told me to the best of my knowledge, that he went next morning; however that he went twice more; that each time he robbed him, as he had the first time he went, and that the white stuff fell upon the carpet, but nothing more.
Q. When the boy told you this story, he said he had pushed at him in the elbow chair, was that his expression?
Q. And he said nothing more till he was asked several times about it, did he give you an answer?
Brest. Yes; with the greatest case without any emotion.
Q. Did he answer in the negative the first time?
Brest. When I asked him any question, I told him he must consider the consequence of telling this story, as it might be made public.
Q. At the first did he deny that the captain had entered him?
Q. How often did you put the question to him, whether he had been in his body, before he said he had?
Brest. I cannot be certain as to that; I said if you are sure the captain did not put it in your b - e say so, if he did you must know, tell me whether he did or not; the boy said he did.
Q. Then he was told by you, that the chief matter turned upon it, whether he entered his body or not?
Brest. I said a man's life depended upon it if he spoke true; he said, will he be hanged? I said yes, if what he said was true; he said well, he had told the truth.
Q. But it was some considerable time before he said this?
Brest. It was not more than three minutes. I was in a hurry, and desired the boy to be quick and explicit.
Q. When he told you this, did you believe him.
Q. How long was it before you applied to a magistrate?
Brest. I did not apply to any; his friends I believe did; the grandfather knew of it; I cautioned him to take advice. I took him to a particular friend of mine, a gentleman of fortune, who knew Captain Jones by same; he said every body, guilty of that crime, ought to be brought to justice; they took the advice of justice Mercer.
Q. Is justice Mercer here?
Brest. No. Mr. Bishop was present at the time, I believe.
Mr. Bishop. I know nothing of it, but what I heard from justice Mercer.
I have some witnesses to prove my attachment to women, and my landlady can prove the boy was never a minute in my lodgings.
For the Prisoner.
Q. Do you remember that little boy coming to the lodgings.
Q. He says he was three times at the lodgings.
Dobson. I do not remember that; I remember his coming once, I believe twice, but I will not be positive; when he came in the first time, I hardly knew him at first; I said to him, Frank, is it you? he said he came about a buckle, or some such thing; I said go up.
Q. Can you tell what time of day it was?
Dobson. No. He went up stairs.
Q. Do you remember his coming down again.
Q. Was you in the house for some time after he was up stairs?
Q. Did you hear any noise, or crying out, or any noise of feet, as if there was struggling.
Q. Where was the Captain's apartments?
Dobson. He had a dining room and a bed-chamber; the dining room is over the shop, and the bedchamber over the parlour.
Q. If there had been any noise or struggle should you have heard it?
Dobson. I think I must have heard it.
Q. What shop do you keep?
Dobson. A china shop.
Q. Is there a carpet in the dining room?
Q. Does it go all over the room?
Dobson. Almost, it does not go under the chairs.
Q. Had you any suspicion of the captain of any thing of this kind?
Dobson. No; I should not have thought it of him; my maid servants complained a little of him. The people that came after him were people of character.
Q. from the Jury. What sort of chairs are there in the room?
Dobson. Two two-arm-chairs; one on each side of the chimney, and six others.
John Dobson I have known Captain Jones near nine years; he lodged with me three different times; he has been abroad; I never saw any thing but what was honest in his conduct, character and connections. I should have thought him the last man in the world, that would have been guilty of any thing of the sort if I had thought it, he should not have staid a night in my house.
Dabson. I do not recollect seeing him there.
Q. What is your opinion of him?
Edwards. That he is quite a different kind of a man; he bears an extreme good character, and is very fond of the women in general.
Q. Do you think him capable of committing such a crime as is a ledged against him?
Edwards. No; I think not.
William Darling . I have known him a great many Years; I was born close to the house, where he was. His father lived in St. Martin's Lane. I am an engraver; I have done a good deal of Business for him, with regard to publications. I could never have thought this of him. I engraved the plates for A Treatise on Scaiting, and a book of Fire-works. I never heard his character impeached, and should never have suspected any thing of this sort. I was amazed when I heard it this morning.
Q. You have been on terms of intimacy with him?
Hope. I was formerly much so seventeen years ago, when he was very young, about fifteen or sixteen; I understood he was addicted to women; I remember once it was said he was clapped or poxed, and I believe it was so.
Q. Had you ever reason to suspect him capable of the crime alledged against him.
Hope. I had quite a different opinion of him; I remember a good many years ago, there was a girl had a difference with her friends, and he wanted to seduce her, and I advised him to keep to common women; he struck me on that occasion several times I remember.
Q. to Mr Mercer. What is the boy's age?
Mercer. I believe he will be thirteen next January.
Hay. I shall be thirteen next January, the last day of the month.
Guilty . Death .