John Carrier.
28th June 1758
Reference Numbert17580628-24

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243. (L.) John Carrier was indicted, for that he had in his custody a certain bill of exchange, with his own name subscribed thereunto, drawn upon William Margesson and John Collison , for the payment of 180 l. to which said bill of exchange he forged an acceptance, and for publishing the same with intent to defraud William Cooper , Sept. 28 . *

John Pyke. I am servant to Mr. Cooper, a dealer in worsted in Newgate-street.

Q. Where is he?

Pyke. He is ill at this time, the prisoner at the bar brought this bill to my master's house (producing one,) it had then the acceptance upon it.

Q. When did he bring it?

Pyke. I can't tell the day, but the prisoner himself since confessed it was the 9th of September, 1756.

Q. Was there any money paid upon it at that time?

Pyke. No, there was not; he desired me to let my master know of his bringing it, my master was then out of town; he said it was accepted by Mess. Margesson and Co.

Q. What did he want with your master?

Pyke. He wanted my master to let him have a note of hand upon it; my master not being at home, the prisoner took it away with him. After that he sent a woman with it, I suppose his wife. She said her husband gave this service to my master; she applied for a note of hand of 26 l. upon it. She left it, and on the 28th of Sept. he came and desired my master to give him a note of hand for 46 l. 5 s. on the credit of the same bill. My master gave it him, but told him he had never indorsed the bill; he then indorsed it, and delivered it back to us.

Q. Look at his name on the back of it, did you see him write that?

Pyke. I did.

The bill read to this purport:

Sept. 6, 1756.

Sir, pay my order 180 l. in Jan. next, for value received, for your humble servant,

John Carrier .

To Mess. Margesson and Collison, Southwark.

M. and C.

Q. What part did he say was the acceptance?

Pyke. He said the M. and C. was.

Q. Is that their way of accepting?

Pyke. Mr. Margesson and Collison say it was their usual way of acceptance at that time.

Cross examination.

Q. How can you undertake to say this is the bill that was brought by him the first time, because he took it back again?

Pyke. When the woman brought it, I took it out of her hand, she said it is what my husband brought before, and she obtained of my master a note of hand of 26 l. She said her husband sent her, and begged very much that my master would oblige her husband, and it was left with my master in my custody. Afterwards Carrier came himself with another note, as I mentioned before, of 46 l. 5 s. I believe we had two or three draughts before.

Q. Do you know of his trading with Mess. Margesson and Collison?

Pyke. I know he did for a considerable sum a year, by his own account.

Q. Was not a commission of bankruptcy taken out against the prisoner?

Pyke. There was, and this draught was proved against the prisoner.

Q. Can you say who he tendered the bill to?

Pyke. He gave it into my hand, and said he wanted my uncle to lend him a note of hand upon it; I read it over; I did not mind the two initial letters; I said it must be carried for acceptance, he said there it is, pointing to the M. and C.

Q. How was this discovered?

Pyke. By the bill becoming due, but we did not proceed sooner, because we could not find him.

Q. When did this bill become due?

Pyke. It became due in February.

Q. Was the commission of bankruptcy taken out then?

Pyke. It was.

Q. Did you ever go to demand the money?

Pyke. A gentleman in Newgate-street came and said Carrier was gone off upon the account of a forgery; then I went to demand the money of Mess. Margesson and Co. I saw Mr. Collison, and shew'd it him, he said it was a forgery, and was very sorry we had got it.

Q. Was the bill proved at the commission of bankruptcy?

Pyke. It was, on the 22d of April.

Edward Cook . I have been servant to Mess. Margesson and Collison twelve or 13 years.

Q. Look at this bill of exchange, the M. and C. ( he takes it in his hand.)

Cook. This M. and C. is not the acceptance of either of them.

Q. Do they appoint any body to accept besides themselves?

Cook. No, nobody accepts but themselves.

Cross examination.

Q. Had the prisoner dealings with them?

Cook. He had.

Q. What migh the deal with them for per year ?

Cook. I can't tell.

Q. Do you think he dealt with them for a thousand pounds per year?

Cook. I believe he might.

Q. Then in that transaction of business, might not there be several bills pass between them?

Cook. There might.

Q. How was their method of acceptance ?

Cook. Their method was at that time in this manner, with M. and C. but I am sure this is neither of their writing.

Rowland Salmon . I am apprentice to Mess. Margesson and Collison.

Q. Are you acquainted with their hand writings.

Salmon. I am.

Q. Are you with that part of their writing of acceptances on bills?

Salmon. I have to do with them every day almost.

Q. Look on this acceptance, ( takes it in his hand.)

Salmon. This is not their acceptance, it is not like either of theirs.

Q. Do you know the prisoner?

Salmon. I do.

Q. Is he acquainted with the manner of their acceptance?

Salmon. He certainly is acquainted with that.

Thomas Winter . I know the prisoner at the bar, he was taken up upon the forgery of a bill, and

I heard him say that Mr. Margesson and Collison knew nothing of those bills.

Q. Did he name this bill?

Winter. This is one amongst others that were produced to him at that time.

Q. What bill was he taken up for publishing?

Winter. He was taken up for publishing this bill, and the conversation related to this bill as one.

Q. Are you sure you heard the prisoner say Mr. Margesson and Collison knew nothing of those bills ?

Cross examination.

Q. Are you certain to this bill as one ?

Winter. I am, I have seen it several times.

Q. Where do you live?

Winter. I am servant to Mr. Cooper, and have been 27 years.

Prisoner's defence.

As for the marks that are upon them, it is the way that I commonly do; as to the bills being forged, there is nothing at all in it.

For the prisoner.

Roger Boston . I have known the prisoner about eighteen years, he has been a considerable dealer; last ten years that I knew him, I have had considerable dealings with him.

Q. What was his business?

Boston. A wool-comber and yarn-maker.

Q. What has been his general character?

Boston. I never heard any thing amiss of him.

Lewis Watkins . I have known the prisoner at the bar ten years, he carried on the business of wool-combing and yarn-making; a very considerable dealer. He employed a great number of hands.

Q. What has been his general character?

Watkins. He always paid his workmen, and behaved well.

Q. How long has he absconded?

Watkins. He absconded about a year and a half ago, but I cannot take upon me to say to a month.

Joseph Pascoe . I have known the prisoner eighteen years, I was servant to him once, he always bore a good character, and paid his workmen very well. He might deal for six, seven, or eight thousand a year; he employed some hundreds of spinners.

Mr. Beazley. I have known him six or seven years, I have sold him wool, he always behav'd like an honest man to me.

Mr. Langton. I have known him about seven years, my acquaintance with him has arose from the nature of my business. I have had bills from him; some of Mess. Margesson's and Collison's accepting.

Q. Look if this is like their signing?

Langton. I am not acquainted with their hand writing, I think those that I had were rather larger letters.

Thomas Hill. I have known the prisoner about seven or eight years or more.

Q. What is his general character?

Hill. I know no harm of him, in regard to his dealings with me, he behaved like an honest man.

Joshua Warne . I have known the prisoner seven or eight years.

Q. What is his general character?

Warne. I can't say much to his character; in the dealings I have had with him he behaved honestly.

Guilty , Death .

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