John Domine.
20th October 1756
Reference Numbert17561020-42
SentenceMiscellaneous > branding; Imprisonment > newgate

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443. (M.) John Domine , otherwise Dampney, otherwise Griffith , was indicted for that the two pieces of current mill'd money of silver coin, call'd shillings, did counterfeit and gild

over, so as to resemble the good money of this kingdom, call'd guineas, and unlawfully did put off to Robert Hall at the rate of five shillings each, being at a lower rate than their denomination imports , July 30 . +

Robert Hall. I am a dealer in stockings , and have a licence to travel about; I seldom go out of town, but sell them about in alehouses. I think it was the 21st of July I met the prisoner, at the end of Old-Street. I said how do you do. He said, I do not know you. No! do you not know me said I, my name is Richardson.

Q. Why did you tell him that was your name?

Hall. Because in the year 1752 I sold this Richardson some stockings, at the Castle in Wood-Street, and I paid away a bad guinea there, to Mr. Greenhow, which I had of one Richardson, and ever after that I suspected this man of making them, Richardson having told me he took it of the prisoner at the bar; therefore I told him my name was Richardson. I thought he dealt in this sort of traffick, so I asked him if he had any queer sixes; saying, I was going into the country.

Q. What did you mean by queer sixes ?

Hall. Because I have heard them talk so when they wanted to change thirty-six shilling pieces; I meant counterfeit ones.

Q. What answer did he make you?

Hall. He said, he had none; but he could let me have two or three guineas, and some half guineas. I ask'd him what I must give him for them. He said you know the price, it is fives, I said, what five shillings! He said yes, a piece for the guineas. Then I asked the price of the half guineas, and he said fours. He gave me two of the guineas into my hand. He took them out of a piece of brown paper.

Q. Were the half guineas in that same paper ?

Hall. They were. There were three half guineas, I agreed to give him ten shillings for the two guineas. When I had them in my hand he said, don't let us stay, come pay me for them. Said I, no I shall not. When he said, let me have my gold again. I said, no I shall not; for I apprehend you to be the corner of them, and I'll take you before a magistrate, so I desire you to go quietly with me, or I'll call an officer, and said I had direction to sieze him. We went quietly out of Goswell-Street down Swan-Alley. Turning up St. John's Street, to Woods Close, he offered to go from me. I took him by the shoulder, and said he might as well be quiet. Then he knock'd me down, and attempted to escape. I got up again, and we fell to fighting. Then a great croud of people gathered about, and there happened to be a constable. The prisoner charged him with me, and said I had rob'd him? Then I told the constable I had an order to apprehend the prisoner, and carry him before a magistrate for coming, and said I would not part with the gold out of my hand. We went to justice Keeling's house, and he was not at home. Then the constable took him to the sign of the Angel, in Goswell-Street, where we met with Mr. Baileys, the justice's clerk, and told him the case, and that I, having suspicion of him, had given information of him to the warden of the Mint. He advised us to take him directly to a magistrate. He was taken before justice Welch, and there he was searched; but we found none of the half guineas about him. He was committed. The two guineas were sealed up at the justice's, and I set a mark upon them, and the second time of his examination they were delivered to the solicitor of the Mint.

William Chamberlain . These are two pieces purporting to be gold ( producing two pieces like guineas ) that Hall swore he had of the prisoner before the justice. They were sealed up there, and delivered to me in Hall's presence. I broke them up to go before the grand jury.

Q. to Hall. Are these the same you had of the prisoner?

Hall. They are the very same pieces.

Cross Examination.

Q. You say you sometimes deal in stockings, pray what is your real trade?

Hall. I deal in stockings and labouring work.

Q. Don't you sometimes deal in money too?

Hall. I never did before this in my life.

Q. How came you first acquainted with all these terms of queer sixes, fives and fours?

Hall. People that go about selling goods see such things if they take notice. I go selling stockings about to those places, where I have seen such men along with Richardson, which was the reason I suspected him. One or two asked me to change thirty-six shilling pieces. I said, I would not, and they answered they were not queer.

Q. How came you to be so positive to the day?

Hall. Because when we were before the justice I set it down.

Q. Was this publick in the street?

Hall. It was.

Q. Did nobody hear it but you?

Hall. No, nobody.

Q. Did the prisoner know you before?

Hall. No, he did not as I know of.

Q. What name did you call him by?

Hall. I said as before; how do you do. I did not know his name.

Q. Is your name Richardson?

Hall. No, it is not. I answer to the name of Robert Hall in all my dealings.

Q. You are pleased to tell the court the prisoner did not know you: Did he tell you he could let you have guineas and half guineas without any reserve?

Hall. Yes, he did after I told him my name was Richardson.

Q. Did you understand at first what he meant by fives?

Hall. I might understand what he meant.

Q. Did you tell him you had a warrant?

Hall. No, for I had none.

Q. Did you tell him you had an order to apprehend him?

Hall. Yes, I believe I did.

Q. Did you give him the 10 s.

Hall. No, I did not.

John Beachamp , I am a constable. On the 21st of July I took this prisoner into custody, in Wood's Close. Hall and he appeared to me to have been fighting. I saw three half guineas (as they appeared to me) in a piece of brown paper in the prisoner's hand. They went to fighting again, and somebody laid hold of my mare's bridle which I was on, and I dismounted, and took hold of the prisoner. I asked him what was become of the three half guineas. He said, I don't know. The prisoner charged me with Hall, for robbing him of two guineas, and Hall charged me with the prisoner. I took them both to Mr. Keeling's. He not being at home, I took them to the Angel, in Goswell-Street, to inquire for Mr. Baileys (justice Keeling's clerk) for advice. There the prisoner went down to the necessary house (I knew he could not get out backwards.) I thought he was a long time before he came back again, so I went to see for him, and he met me at the door. He said, if you'll let me go I'll give you a guinea, and put one into my hand, and said, you never shall want for money as long as you live.

Q. Did he know he was charged with putting off counterfeit guineas?

Beachamp. Yes, he did very well. I said to him will you go and lose your two guineas, and give me another; if your's was a right cause why should you do that? He said, in a right cause in get rid of a villain what would not a man do. After that I went to see him in New-Prison, and ask'd him to drink a glass of wine. I believe he did not know me at first. I said, how do you make this affair old gentleman, I believe you'll come nastily off. How came you to sell the two guineas for ten shillings ? He said, suppose I had a mind to sell 100 l. for a halfpenny, what is that to you? Then he found I was the constable.

Q. Was you with him before the justice?

Beachamp. I was. It was justice Welch.

Q. Was he searched there?

Beachamp. He was, in the yard. There was a good guinea found upon him, and two or three shillings in silver; but there were no halfguineas found.

Q. Was he ask'd what became of the three half guineas?

Beachamp. I am not able to say whether he was or not.

Q. Did he know you was searching for the three half guineas from what was said ?

Beachamp. I said, I saw three half guineas in his hand, and he denied that he ever had any.

Cross Examination.

Q. Did he make any resistance, or strive to get from you?

Beachamp. No.

Q. Who did you take to be that villain he mentioned ?

Beachamp. I took him to be this Hall. I till then took Hall to be the aggressor.

Q. Are you sure that was a good guinea which he put in your hand?

Beachamp. It was as good a guinea as ever I saw in my life by its appearance.

Council for the crown. Was that guinea taken from out of a brown paper?

Beachamp. No, that and three shillings were in his naked pocket.

William Jones . I am headborough of St. James's Clerkenwell. On the 23rd of July I went to search the prisoner's lodging.

Q. Where did he lodge?

Jones. In Great Warder-Street, Cold-Bath Fields.

Q. What is the landlord's name?

Jones. His name is Duddle. I found several little materials, and some

Q. Look upon this money?

Jones. (He takes a piece in his hand.) This is a King George the first's shilling, made in the year 1723.

Q. to Chamberlain. What coin are the two counterfeit guineas?

Chamberlain. They are King George the first's 1723.

Jones. I found six of these shillings made that same year.

Q. Are they all good shillings?

Jones. They are. There is no alteration on them. I found another piece of silver in imitation of a half moidore, with cross bars. (Produced to the jury, who look at it.)

Q. Where was this money found?

Jones. The six shillings were in a drawer wrap'd up in a piece of paper. The half moidore was in the same chest, but not the same drawer.

Q. What other money did you find?

Jones. I found a 3 l. 12 s. piece, a very good one, and some very good guineas; these were in a drawer, but not in the same paper. I found also a little piece of box wood; here are some faint impressions on it ( producing it.) I saw a great sight of old snuff-boxes, some pieces, bottoms, and sides, and tops, some silver and brass rims, they look'd very dull, and lay in a dusty careless way, some in boxes, some in drawers.

Q. Did it appear to you that he carried on the trade of snuff-box making ?

Jones. I should think too. [He produced a parcel of other things tied up in a handkerchief.]

Cross examination.

Q. What business is the prisoner ?

Jones. I don't know.

Q. What place are you constable of?

Jones. I am headborough of St. James's, Clerkenwell.

Q. Do you live there?

Jones. I do; my house is there.

Q. Did you bring away the snuff-boxes ?

Jones. No. I did not meddle with them.

Q. Did you see the landlord of the house?

Jones. Yes, and told him, I wanted to search the house for one Domine; he said there was no such man lodged there.

Q. What name did the prisoner go by?

Jones. He went by another name, I can't tell what now.

Q. Did you not declare to the landlord, that there was no ground of suspicion whatever?

Jones. No, I did not.

Q. Did you find any thing else?

Jones. I found a small anvil or slake in the window, cover'd with paper (produced in court.)

Richard Yeo . I am engraver to the mint, and have been so about seven years.

Q. Look at this piece of box wood.

Yeo. (He looks at it.) This seems to have been intended to be used to flatten a piece of silver after it had been made hollow by raising the scepters, so laying it down and putting the end of this upon it, which is quite flat, by striking on the top of it, it would make the silver lie flat again; here seems, to be a confused mixture of the prints of money on the end, by the striking it.

Q. Look at these two guineas that are here produced.

Yeo. These certainly are counterfeits, they are shillings gilt after the scepters were work'd up out of the silver.

Q. What coin is it?

Yeo. It is a coin of his late majesty king George.

Q. What coin is the most easily alter'd this way ?

Yeo. These of king George I. and also some of queen Anne's, such as have a rose, heart, or letters between the crosses, which stand projecting, for by the means of chasing tools that metal may be drove out of its place, so as to raise the scepters; whereas others that have not this metal to work upon are run so early to form scepters on.

Q Look at one of these shillings that were found in the prisoner's room.

Yeo. These are the most fit for that purpose.

Q. Look upon this half moidore.

Yeo. It is silver; I suppose this to be a cast half moidore.

Q. Did you ever see any of these in silver before?

Yeo. No, never.

Q. There are other things the last evidence produced, look at them.

Yeo. Here is a sand bag or cushion to engrave on; a block of pewter with cement on it, to fasten down any metal to engrave or chase, engraver's scorpers, crucibles, and engraver's tools.

Joseph Duddle . The prisoner lodged in my house.

Q. How long did he lodge with you?

Duddle. At Michaelmas last he had lodged with me half a year.

Q. Was you at the searching of the room?

Duddle. I was. I saw all these things found.

Q. Did he follow any trade or business?

Duddle. I never could discern he had any.

Q. Did any body come about business while he was at your house ?

Duddle. Not one soul.

Q. Were there no watches, snuff-boxes, teaspoons, or any thing of the silver trade, sold while he was at your house ?

Duddle. No, none.

Q. When he went in and out, did he use to lock the door?

Duddle. Yes.

Q. Suppose he did not go out of the house, but out of his room into the kitchen, was his room door lock'd then?

Duddle. Sometimes not.

Q. How was it when he was in his room?

Duddle. Then it was mostly lock'd, but not always. I and my wife have been in the room with him.

Q. Was the key hole ever cover'd when he has been in the room alone ?

Duddle. It has sometimes; but with what I can't tell. We thought he lived upon a little matter he might have of his own, and not having much before hand might mend his own shoes, or the like; and we thought his blinding the key-hole was with intent the rest of the house should not see him.

Q. Did you ever hear him at work with tools, as a silversmith ?

Duddle. No, never.

Cross examination.

Q. Who made his bed?

Duddle. He himself.

Q. Did not a woman come to him sometimes?

Duddle. There was a woman used to come to and fro, that used to black his shoes. I know her. She is an honest woman.

Q. Did not she use to make his bed?

Duddle. I can't tell that. It is my opinion he made it himself.

Q. At the time he lodged with you did you suspect him of this ?

Duddle. No, I did not. We thought him a very honest man, that could barely subsist in a decent way and manner.

Q. Have you not heard what trade he was bred up in ?

Duddle. Not before they came to search his room, and take his tools away. Since that I thought (by the tools) he was a goldsmith, no otherways.

Prisoner's defence.

As to the tools, in the first place, they all belong to my trade, every tool there. As for the shillings, they are common money. There is hardly any body but what have them in their pockets, that have any silver. As for the half moidore, that is not one, it is something like it. These pieces are to be had common at goldsmiths shops and bankers. This of mine, it is to be seen, has been made a great many years. It may be seen by any workman that it is not made by any man in England. The two bad guineas I know nothing of. I never made one, neither did I ever utter any bad piece of money, either English or foreign coin, upon earth. Is it not a strange thing that having been in London so long, and in Mr. Pentelow's gaol a quarter of a year, and exposed to publick view, yet nobody should appear against me but this fellow, if I was guilty. This Hall is a fellow that has got neither house nor home. He is what we call a family man, a very bad sort of a fellow. He has others that go about with him a shop-listing, buying stolen goods, and every thing that is bad. I never saw him in my life time, nor he me.

Guilty .

[Branding. See summary.]

[Imprisonment. See summary.]

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