Edward Lloyd, Deborah Lloyd.
11th September 1745
Reference Numbert17450911-40

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346, 347. +. Edward Lloyd , and Deborah Lloyd his wife , were indicted, for that they not having the fear of God before their eyes, nor weighing the duty of their allegiance, but being moved and seduced by the instigation of the devil, and devising and intending our Lord the King and his people, craftily, falsely, deceitfully, feloniously and traiterously to deceive and defraud, on the 15th day of July, in the 19th year of his Majesty's reign , at the parish of St. Andrew's Holborn in the county of Middlesex , twenty four pieces of false, feigned, and counterfeit money and coin, made of copper, pewter, tin, lead, and other base metals, each of the said pieces to the likeness and similitude of a good, lawful and current piece of silver money and coin of this realm, called a shilling, then and there, craftily, falsely, deceitfully, feloniously, and traiterously did make, forge, coin, and counterfeit, against the duty of their allegiance, against his Majesty's peace, his crown, and dignity, and against the form of the statute in such case made and provided .

The Counsel for the King * having opened the nature of the offence, and set forth the many ill consequences that attend this pernicious practice, they proceeded to the proof of the fact, and for that purpose called Joanna Wood : who was an accomplice with the Prisoners.

* The Council for the Crown were Serjeant Hayward and Mr. Benne.

Q. How long have you known the Prisoners?

Wood. About 25 or 26 years.

Q. What have they followed during that time?

Wood. Nothing but what they do now?

Q. What is that?

Wood. Making money, and putting it off when they have done, and sometimes I have done the same. Deborah Lloyd and I have gone out a great many times together.

Q. Have you gone out lately with her?

Wood. The last time was at that gentlewoman's house [Mrs. Lemmon at the Lord Cobham's head in Cold-Bath-Fields.]

Q. What time was that?

Wood. Really I cannot say rightly the day of the month; it was eight weeks ago last Monday, that was the 15th day of July; I have been in New Prison ever since.

Q. When you went to Mrs. Lemmon's house, who went with you?

Wood. Deborah Lloyd .

Q. What did you carry with you?

Wood. I think there were seven of them.

Q. Seven what?

Wood. Seven shillings.

Q. Were they good or bad shillings?

Wood. They were bad shillings?

Q. Did you ever offer any of these bad shillings to Mrs. Lemmon?

Wood . I offered one of them to Mrs. Lemmon at the time I was taken; we had been there that day once before, and Deborah Lloyd put off one; and I did not think it proper for her to offer money twice in one day.

Q. What time of the day was the first time?

Wood. I think it was about six in the evening.

Q. What had you there?

Wood. A pint of ale, for she drinks nothing but ale.

Q. Who did you give the shilling to?

Wood. To a young woman in the bar.

Q. What change had you?

Wood. We had ten pence halfpenny.

Q. So for that bad shilling, you had ten pence halfpenny, and a pint of ale.

Q. How long was it after that, that you offered the other shilling?

Wood. We had only been up at Islington and returned again. And when we came to my Lord Cobham's head, nothing would serve her, but she would go in there again.

Q. What did you call for then?

Wood. A dram of rum, and that came to three half-pence, for she drinks nothing but rum and ale.

Q. What did she do then?

Wood. She laid down the shilling, and the gentlewoman discovered it; (she was in the bar herself then) and would not give us the change. Says Deborah Lloyd , don't go off without the change; if she had not said so, I believe I should have gone off; so I was taken and carried by an officer to New Prison that night.

Q. Do you know where these Shillings were made, and by whom?

Wood. Yes, to be sure I do, they were made by him [ Edward Lloyd .]

Q. How are they made?

Wood. They are made in what they call a stask.

Q. What did they do with the stask?

Wood. The stask is filled with whiting.

Q. Is the whiting wet or dry?

Wood. It is partly wet and partly dry. It is made into a paste, and then put into the flask. This flask opens as a book may do, and has a spout to it. Then they make a sort of an impression upon the paste with a good shilling.

Q. After they have got an impression upon the paste, what do they do with the good shillings?

Wood. They shake them out: they give the flask a knock, and out drop all the good shillings. Then they make a sort of a gutter to let the liquor in; and then they pour the metal into the flask, and when the metal is cold, they turn the bad shillings out.

Q. What do they do then?

Wood. They file them to take the metal off that hangs upon the edges, to make them smooth.

Q. Have you seen this done more than once?

Wood. I cannot tell how often I have seen them do it; but I have seen them do it several times.

Q. Do you remember any particular day when you saw them do this?

Wood. I saw him do it upon last Whitson Monday. And about a fortnight or three weeks before I saw her do it, that was the last time I saw her do it.

Q. How many were made on Whitson Monday?

Wood. There were twenty four of them made then.

Q. You say you took out seven of these shillings, one of which you put off to the bar keeper, and the other Mrs. Lemmon stopped herself; were these some of the same?

Wood. These were some of the same.

Q. What did she do to them?

Wood. She scowered them.

Q. So his business was to cast them, and her business was to make them fit for sale?

Wood. That was just as they agreed.

Q. Were they boiled in any thing?

Wood. Yes.

Q. What were they boiled in?

Wood. They were boiled in allom water.

Q. I suppose you used to make some of them?

Wood. I never did any thing, but only assisted in putting them off.

Q. What did you do afterwards?

Wood. When I was in New-Prison I desired them to make every thing safe, and they came and told me every thing was safe.

Q. What did they do with the materials?

Wood. They used to put them into a close stool, or any other private place.

Q. Did they use to put them into a chair?

Wood. Yes, this is the chair they used to put them into. [There was a two armed chair produced with a false bottom, that let down like a flap.]

On Wednesday night when I saw Mr. North, I thought it better than to lie in goal, to make a confession.

Q. Did you say any thing to Mr. North where the things were?

Wood. I told him they were in a chair with a false bottom; and that there were some drawers with oil and other things.

Q. Pray what other account did you give to Mr. North?

Wood. Sir, I could give no other account.

Q. Was that money that you put off made

by the man and the woman [the two Prisoners?]

Wood. Yes, the same.

Prisoner, Edward Lloyd . I have not heard a word she says, and I am very deaf. Did you ever see me make any of this money? Oh, you strumpet! Did not your brother use to make them?

Court. She says, That on Whitson Monday she saw you coin 24 shillings.

Prisoner, Deb. Lloyd. She says, she saw me coin some too. These poor hands are not fit for coining. You know how to make them.

Counsel. She does so.

Deb. Lloyd. Did not you lie with my husband all night?

Speaking to her husband, she said, Did not you take her home, and was not she seen in bed with you?

Prisoner, Edward Lloyd . I would ask you whether when you came from South Carolina, you did not make an information to one Mr. Pinkney, and was an evidence against Morgan?

Wood . No, I did not.

Edw Lloyd . What, do you deny it? Oh you strumpet!

Brooks. (constable) About seven weeks ago Mrs. Lemmon sent for me to take charge of a person for putting off bad money.

Q. Who did she charge you with?

Brooks. With Joanna Wood . This is the shilling that Mrs. Lemmon gave me.

Prisoner, Deb. Lloyd. Pray, Madam, did I ever give you a shilling?

Jury. She does not say you did.

Q. to Mrs. Lemmon. Do you remember one or both of these women coming to your house?

Mrs. Lemmon. Yes, very well, I remember both of them; Deb. Lloyd, and the evidence Wood, came to my house, and had a three half-penny glass of rum.

Q. Who drank the rum?

Lemmon. Deb. Lloyd.

Q. Who offered you the shilling?

Lemmon. Joanna Wood offered me the shilling.

Q. Did you take this shilling of her?

Lemmon. I threw the shilling down upon the bar, but I did not like the sound of it. So I kept it and stopped her.

Q. Are you sure this is the shill ing she gave you?

Lemmon. I verily believe it is; I cannot swear positively to it; for I gave it several gentlemen there that looked at it, and then I gave it to the constable. It is the shilling I gave the constable; and that very night I found three bad shillings that the young woman at the bar had taken that day.

Prisoner, Deb. Lloyd. I never saw the gentlewoman in my life before, so I don't know how I can ask her any questions.

Lemmon. When I complained that it was a bad shilling, the Prisoner Deb. Lloyd run away.

Mr. John North , Sollicitor to the mint. Upon Joanna Wood 's being taken up, Justice Poulson sent me a letter, upon which I waited on him: When I came there, I saw Mrs. Wood, who I have known a great while, on account of her putting off counterfeit money. As I have known the Prisoners at the bar several years on the same account, I have often desired them to make a discovery of their accomplices, but they never would. Joanna Wood desired to go into another room to talk with me, and she said she was tired of that way of life, that she had been frequently in trouble about it, and was resolved to make a discovery of the affair. Then she said that Mr. Lloyd and Mrs. Lloyd, the Prisoners at the bar, for she [Mrs. Lloyd] went many years by the name of Moody, both of them coined; and that if I went to their lodging at a barber's shop in Purpool Lane , I should certainly meet with them, and I went there accordingly.

Deb. Lloyd. And what did you find there?

North. I went there the next day, but Mrs. Wood said she believed I should not find any thing, for she had given them a caution to put them out of the way. But she said if I found any thing it would be in a chair with a false bottom. I went there with two men, one of which was a constable: It was some time before I found out the chair with the false bottom; but at last I found that this false bottom let down with a sort of a hinge; but there was nothing to be found there. I searched the other parts of the room, and found nothing; but

in some private drawers there were several little parcels of tape, sealing wax, and divers other sorts of goods; but I did not see any thing relating to what they were charged with. And Deborah Lloyd said you may look as long as you will, there are no forty pounds to be found here. Then I went to Justice Poulson's, and Deborah fell in a passion, and said to the evidence Wood, What! have you served me so? you have got the start of me now. And Deborah asked me whether Wood had informed against her son and daughter for making of money; I said, no; then, she said, I will. She said to me, Mr. North, you have often desired me to make a discovery of the persons-concerned with me in coining, which I have always refused to do. When she said the evidence had got the start of her, why, said I, has she got the start of you, did you ever see Mrs. Wood make money? Yes, said she, I have.

Court. Did you ever see Wood make money?

Deb. Lloyd. Yes, I have.

Q. Did you ask her any questions with respect to the metal they made this money of?

North. Yes, she said that Edward Lloyd told her where he used to buy it. I went to the shop to make an enquiry into the affair; but the person who used to serve him is here himself, and can give your Lordship an account of what he knows of the matter.

Deborah Lloyd . All the questions I would ask Mr. North is, (for he said I slew in a passion, and asked whether Joanna Wood had put her son and daughter into the information, for they have coined money, and she learned them to do it) whether I did not bid him go to the evidence's son in law's, and make a search? I told you if you searched there, you would find something, did not I?

North. Yes, you did so.

Thomas Foot , constable . I was desired by Mr. North to go to the Prisoner's house to take them up. I saw this chair there, and there was a great quantity of little parcels of things. And here is a file, two marking irons, and a spoon.

Lloyd . These marking irons are to mark the spoons with.

[The gentleman's servant of whom the metal was bought proved that the Prisoner Edward Lloyd used to buy more or less once a months for eleven years together.]

Edward Lloyd (to the last witness.) Do you know me?

The witness. Yes, very well.

Lloyd. What are you, master or servant?

Witness. I am a servant.

Lloyd. What have you known me eleven years, and say I have bought metal of you for that time? I never bought any such thing in my life.

Prisoner Edward Lloyd . Here is but one single witness against us, (and the laws of England require two) and that is Joanna Wood , and she is no witness at all, for the laws of England say, that no single person shall be an evidence against another, unless their character be as clear as the sun; and she is as dark as ever she can be; she is as spotted as ever she can be; a rainy night cannot be darker. No person, especially one so dark as she, ought to be admitted to take another person's life away. There was nothing found in my room relating to coining. And as for the chair I gave 14 d. for it in Moorfields, as it is, Gentlemen, I hope that as there is but one single evidence against us, and one so black as she is, that you will have no regard to her. When you went to your son and daughter's, how could you get money to support yourself without putting off the money? don't saint now, but speak the truth; what day was it you ever saw me do such a thing, as you have been now speaking of, though I can hardly hear you?

Wood. It was on Whitson Monday.

Deborah Lloyd . I am not fit for a coiner, one that has no fingers . For six weeks together she lay almost every night, all night long with my husband; and she wanted him to marry her.

Edward Lloyd. She did frequently ask me to marry her, but I said I could not do that, for I had a wife already. She said, what signifies that, it is only burning in the hand.

Lloyd, (to Winifred Ward , one of the Prisoners.) Did not you hear Wood say, she would swear hard against me?

Ward. I never heard her say any thing, but that she was sorry for the old people, and was afraid it would go hard with them. Guilty Death .

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