Old Bailey Proceedings, 12th December 1887.
Reference Number: t18871212
Reference Number: f18871212

CENTRAL CRIMINAL COURT

Sessions Paper.

DE KEYSER, MAYOR.

SECOND SESSION, HELD DECEMBER 12TH, 1887.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE,

TAKEN IN SHORT-HAND, BY

JAMES DROVER BARNETT

AND

>ALEXANDER BUCKLER,

Short-hand Writers to the Court,

ROLLS CHAMBERS, No. 89, CHANCERY LANE.

THE POINTS OF LAW AND PRACTICE

REVISED AND EDITED BY

EDWARD T. E. BESLEY, ESQ.,

OF THE MIDDLE TEMPLE, BARRISTER-AT-LAW.

LONDON:

STEVENS AND SONS, 119, CHANCERY LANE,

Law Booksellers and Publishers.

THE

WHOLE PROCEEDINGS

On the Queen's Commission of

OYER AND TERMINER AND GAOL DELIVERY

FOR

The City of London,

AND GAOL DELIVERY FOR THE

COUNTY OF MIDDLESEX, AND THE PARTS OF THE COUNTIES OF ESSEX, KENT, AND SURREY, WITHIN THE JURISDICTION

OF THE

CENTRAL CRIMINAL COURT,

Including cases committed to this Court under Order in Council pursuant to the Winter Assize Act of 1879,

Held on Monday, December 12th, 1887, and following days.

BEFORE the RIGHT HON. POLYDORE DE KEYSER, LORD MAYOR of the City of London; the Hon. Sir JAMES FITZJAMES STEPHEN, Knt., one of the Justices of Her Majesty's High Court of Justice; Sir ROBERT WALTER CARDEN , Bart., Sir JAMES CLARKE LAWRENCE , Bart., DAVID HENRY STONE , Esq., Sir JOHN WHITAKER ELLIS, Bart., Aldermen of the said City; Sir THOMAS CHAMBERS , Knt., Q.C., Recorder of the said City; JAMES WHITEHEAD , Esq., PHINEAS COWAN , Esq., STUART KNILL , Esq., and GEORGE ROBERT TYLER , Esq., other of the Aldermen of the said City; Sir WILLIAM THOMAS CHARLEY , Knt., Q.C., D.C.L., Common Sergeant of the said City; and ROBERT MALCOLM KERR , Esq., LL.D., Judge of the Sheriffs' Court; Her Majesty's Justices of Oyer and Terminer, and General Gaol Delivery, holden for the said City, and Judges of the Central Criminal Court.

HORATIO DAVID DAVIES , Esq.,

WILLIAM ALPHEUS HIGGS, Esq.,

Sheriffs.

GEORGE ROSE INNES , Junior, Esq.,

THOMAS BEARD , Esq.,

Under-Sheriffs.

CENTRAL CRIMINAL COURT.

DE KEYSER, MAYOR. SECOND SESSION.

A star (*) denotes that prisoners have been previously in custody—two stars (**) that they have been more than once in custody—a dagger (†) that they are known to be the associates of bad characters—the figures after the name in the indictment, denote the prisoner's age.

LONDON AND MIDDLESEX CASES.

OLD COURT.—Monday, December 12th, 1887.

Before Mr. Recorder.

Reference Number: t18871212-96

96. MARY ANN IVESON(35) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.

MR. HORACE AVORY Prosecuted.

CHARLES HEINTZ . I keep a coffee-house at 8, Mansell Street, Aldgate—on 19th November, about 9 p.m., the prisoner came in and asked for a cup of coffee, price 1d., and gave me a shilling—I gave her 11d. change, and put the shilling in my pocket, where there was but a two-shilling piece—she drank her coffee and then left—about two or three minutes after that the other woman, Ruskin (See next case), came in, and asked for something, and gave me a shilling—I examined it and found it was bad, and said "This is a bad shilling"—she said "Oh, is it?"—I said "Yes"—she then drank her coffee, and gave me a penny, and left the shop—I gave the shilling back to the prisoner—I put on my coat and followed her out, and found both prisoners talking together at the corner of Haley Street—I then saw a constable coming, and spoke to him, and went across to them and charged them, and gave the constable the shilling which the prisoner had given me.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. When I had given her the 11d. change I had only the two-shilling piece in my pocket.

JAMES WILLIAM MOULTON (City Policeman). On the morning of 19th November I was spoken to by the last witness, and saw the prisoner standing at the corner of the street talking to Ruskin—I moved towards them, and the prisoner then walked hurriedly away up the street, and Ruskin following her—I overtook Ruskin, and she then threw something down the grating of 23, Mansell street—I spoke to Mrs. Gunby, and shortly afterwards she produced this shilling—shortly afterwards I overtook Iveson, and told her I should take her to the police-station for being

concerned with the other woman in uttering a counterfeit shilling—she said "I know nothing about it"—I then took them to the station, where I asked their address, and Iveson said "I have no home"—the inspector who took the charge asked her what she had done with the change (she had then been searched), and she said she had paid it to a young woman whom she owed for lodgings.

EMILY GUNBY . I am the wife of Edwin Gunby, and live at 23, Mansell Street—on the morning of the 19th Moulton said to me in the presence of the prisoner "Go down and see if there is anything in your area." and I went and looked, and found a shilling, and gave it to the policeman.

WILLIAM JOHN WEBSTER . I am inspector of coin to Her Majesty's Mint—these two shillings are both counterfeit, and from the same mould.

The prisoner in her defence stated that a man gave her the shitting, and that she did not know it was bad.

GUILTY . She then LEADED GUILTY to a conviction at this Court on 11th January, 1886, of uttering counterfeit coin and having other in her possession,

Reference Number: t18871212-97

97. MARY ANN IVESON was again indicted with PRITCHARD RUSKIN(33) for unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.

MR. HORACE AVORY Prosecuted.

The evidence in the former case was repeated, JAMES WILLIAM MOULTON adding: When I to K Ruskin I told her I should take her in custody for uttering a counterfeit shilling with another person—she said "I know nothing about it"—at the station she gave her address as George's Yard, Golden Lane; I have been there, but she is not known.

Ruskin in her defence stated that she did not know Iveson.

GUILTY . RUSKIN*.— Nine Months' Hard Labour . IVESON**— One Year and Nine Months' Hard Labour.

Reference Number: t18871212-98

98. LAURA SMITH , Feloniously marrying Alfred Henry Smith, her husband being then alive.

MR. TAYLOR Prosecuted; MR. HUTTON Defended.

HARRY JAMES BAKER . I live at 52, Kerrison Road, Clapham Junction, and am a brass finisher—in 1879 I was living at Gloucester Street, Queen's Square—I knew the prisoner and Mr. Patten; I was present at their marriage; I produce a certificate of their marriage at St. Pancras Church; I signed the register as one of the witnesses—as near as I can recollect, the last time I saw Mr. Patten was in the, flower season, two years ago, on Waterloo Bridge—I knew him well, but I have not received letters from him—I have only seen him write on one occasion when he signed the register—the writing in this letter (produced) is something very similar to his writing, but I have no belief on the subject.

HENRY SMITH . I live at 78, York Road, Stoke Newington, and am a silversmith—I know the prisoner; I was present at her marriage with my son on 13th July in last year—she is described as "Laura Stansfield, spinster," on the certificate—they had been engaged four or five months—they have lived together since.

Cross-examined. I instituted these proceedings.

NEALE HEENAN . I live at 48, Richmond Road, Barnsbury, and was formerly foreman to Carter Paterson and Co.—I have known Mr. Patten

10 or 12 years, and I have known the prisoner five or six years as Mrs. Patten—as near as I can say I last saw Patten about 12 months ago—I have seen Patten write letters on several occasions, but I have not received letters from him—this letter (produced) is in his writing—I met Patten last in Tottenham Court Road—I was formerly in the Metropolitan Police Force, and I knew Patten there—it was just before Christmas I last saw him.

Cross-examined. It is about seven years ago since he was in the police force—I could not say why he left; I know he was sent to penal servitude a little time after 1880, but I have been in his company hundreds of times since then.

Re-examined. I met him in Upper Street, Islington, about three years ago, and he was sent to penal servitude about a year or 18 months after 1880—he got five years, but from what I hear the Earl of Enskilling did something to get three years of his sentence remitted.

ALEXANDER CLYOE (Police Sergeant A 35). In June, 1885, I was warrant officer for the Marylebone Police-court—I recollect the prisoner coming to me there for a warrant for the apprehension of her husband, William Patten, and he was bound over in his own recognizances in 50l. for six months to keep the peace to his wife.

JOHN SUMMERS (Police Sergeant N) About 6.30 on 22nd November I saw the prisoner in Chapel Street, Clerkenwell, and told her I should arrest her for marrying Henry Smith, her husband, William Patten, then being alive—she said "I thought he was dead, I have not seen him for 10 years, and Smith knew all about it."

GUILTY .— One Day's Imprisonment.

Reference Number: t18871212-99

99. EDWIN ROBERTS(15), SAMUEL ROBERTS (13), RICHARD SKEGGS (10), and WILLIAM MARSHALL(15) PLEADED GUILTY to a burglary in the dwelling-house of Annie Anning, and stealing a quantity of cheese and other articles.— EDWARD ROBERTS— One Month's Hard Labour . SAMUEL ROBERTS, SKEGGS, and MARSHALL— Fourteen Days and Five Years in a Reformatory.

Reference Number: t18871212-100

100. FRANCIS THOMAS HARTOP(26) to unlawfully endeavouring to have carnal knowledge of Emily Hartop, under the age of 13; also for two indecent assaults on the same person.— Two Years' Hard Labour. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

Reference Number: t18871212-101

101. JOHN JONES(24) to stealing a watch and chain of David Beltings from his person, and having been before convicted.— Twelve Months' Hard Labour. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

Reference Number: t18871212-102

102. HENRY HELDING(31) to stealing a watch and 22l. in the dwelling-house of David Runs, and to a previous conviction.— Eighteen Months' Hard Labour. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

Reference Number: t18871212-103

103. JAMES RUSSELL(23) to forging and uttering an advance note for 1l. 15s., with intent to defraud.— One Month's Hard Labour . [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]And

Reference Number: t18871212-104

104. SIDNEY EATON to unlawfully obtaining 7s. 6d. and 10s. 6d. by false pretences. He received a good character and was recommended to mercy by the prosecutor.— Judgment respited.[Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

NEW COURT.—Monday, December 12th, 1887.

Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

Reference Number: t18871212-105

105. FREDERICK JOHNSON(18) , Feloniously having counterfeit coin in his possession, with intent to utter it.

MR. WILKINSON. Prosecuted.

WILLIAM BROWN (Detective E). On 1st December I was with Temlett

in Clare Market, both in plain clothes, and saw the prisoner with two others, one of whom I knew well as a maker of counterfeit coin, and I saw him pass a packet to the prisoner, who put it in his right hand trousers pocket—we followed the two into Lincoln's Inn Fields and through Bear Yard—we went through Sheffield Street, and the man not in custody, who was two yards behind the prisoner, turned round and ran back into the court—Temlett pursued him, and I stopped the prisoner and said "I suspect you have counterfeit coin in your possession"—he made no reply—I pinioned him with my arms and kept his right hand in his trousers pocket till Temlett came back and searched him, and found 15 half-crowns in his trousers pocket in two packets, with paper between each coin.

SIDNEY TEMLETT (Detective Officer E). I was with Brown, and saw the prisoner and two other men in Clare Market—one of them, whom I knew as a maker of counterfeit coin, passed something to the prisoner, who put it in his right hand trousers pocket, and the other ran away—I followed him but lost sight of him—I returned and found Brown holding the prisoner, whom I searched, and found in his right trousers pocket 2 packets and 15 counterfeit coins, 10 in one paper and 5 in another, each separately wrapped in paper—he was charged at the station and made no answer—I found 4 1/2 d. on him—he gave his address, I, Middle Court, Middle Row, Old Street, St. Lukes.

WILLIAM JOHN WEBSTER . I am inspector of coin to Her Majesty's Mint—these 15 half-crowns are all counterfeit and of different dates and moulds—they are rubbed with black to take off the excessive brightness, which is rubbed off as they are taken out one by one.

Prisoner's Defence. Is it likely that if I had known I had counterfeit coin I should not have run away?

GUILTY . He then PLEADED GUILTY to a conviction at this Court in March, 1887, in the name of George Jones, of unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin twice Within 10 days.— Twenty Months' Hard Labour.

The COMMON SEBJEANT commended the officers' conduct.

Reference Number: t18871212-106

106. EDWARD TRANTER(51) , Stealing whilst employed in the Post Office two post letters containing postal orders, the property of Her Majesty's Postmaster General, and ALEXANDER TRANTER(17) . feloniously receiving the same.

EDWARD TRANTER PLEADED GUILTY Seven Years' Penal Servitude.

MESSRS. GILL and RICHARDS, for the Prosecution, offered no evidence against Alexander Tranter.

NOT GUILTY .

Reference Number: t18871212-107

107. HENRY CORMACK** (48) PLEADED GUILTY to feloniously uttering counterfeit coin, after a conviction in November, 1882, at this Court of a like offence.— Seven Years' Penal Servitude.

Reference Number: t18871212-108

108. GEORGE EDWARD FRANCIS WITHAM(19) to three indictments to stealing post letters, containing property of Her Majesty's Postmaster General whilst employed in the Post Office.— Five Years Penal Servitude. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

Reference Number: t18871212-109

109. CHARLES JAMES GALLIERS(25) to stealing while employed in the Post Office a letter containing property of Her Majesty's Postmaster General.— Eighteen Months' Hard Labour. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

Reference Number: t18871212-110

110. WALTER GEORGE ALLEN(30) to embezzling the sums of 15l. 12s., 15l., and 4l. 18s. 11d., the moneys of the Postmaster General.— Judgment respited.[Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

Reference Number: t18871212-111

111. ISAAC BARTON(33) to stealing whilst employed under the Post Office a post letter containing an order for 3l. 7s. 10d., the property of Her Majesty's Postmaster General .— Judgment respited [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.] . And

Reference Number: t18871212-112

112. HENRY JOHNSON(23) to stealing whilst employed under the Post Office a letter containing an order for 7s. 6d., the property of Her Majesty's Postmaster General.— Twelve Months' Hard Labour. Judgment respited.[Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

Reference Number: t18871212-113

113. HENRY PALMER(34) , Stealing whilst employed in the Post Office a post packet and other articles, the property of Her Majesty's Postmaster General.

MESSRS. GILL and RICHARDS Prosecuted.

JANE HAWKINS . I am the wife of William Hawkins, a tailor, of Cirencester—I am a mantle maker—on 2nd December I had this letter written (produced)—I put it in a registered envelope with two sovereigns and four sixpences—it was addressed to Messrs. Spreckley, White, and Lewis, 13, Cannon Street, E C.—I got the young girl, Eleanor Millington, to post it, and she brought back this receipt.

ELEANOR MILLINGTION . I am apprenticed to Mrs. Hawkins—on 2nd December, between seven and eight p.m., I took a letter, of which this is the envelope, to the Cirencester Post Office, gave it to one of the clerks, and received this receipt (produced.)

PHILIP REILEY . I am a sorter in the Registered Letter Branch, St. Martin's Le Grand—a letter posted at Cirencester on 2nd December would reach London the next morning—on 3rd September, about 10.40, the prisoner gave me this receipt for this registered letter, which came into my hands.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. You could not have obtained the letter without giving me the receipt—if you delivered the letter you would get a receipt and return it to the office—you would have to take a duplicate advice to the firm and get them to sign for it.

FREDERICK WILLIAM MANN . I am in the confidential enquiry office of the Post Office—on 5th December, in consequence of the non-delivery of this letter, I asked the prisoner to come with me to the Post Office; he had just finished his round—Hants was with me—when we started the prisoner said "Oh, let me go, I am a guilty man; lama doomed man"—when we got to the Poet Office I said "Have you anything about you belonging to the Post Office?"—he said "Yes," and produced from his breast pocket several letters, five of which were registered and addressed to firms in Cannon Street, and which ought all to have been delivered before that—one of them was addressed to Spreckly, White and Lewis, and was open—I looked at it and saw that there should have been 2l. 2s. in it, but there was no money in it—I asked him what explanation he had to give of a registered letter being open—he said "I had it on Saturday fur the 10 o'clock delivery; I put it in my pocket, and being short of a little cash I opened the letter and abstracted the contents, with the intention of replacing them this morning"—I said "Two of the other registered letters appear to have been opened; what have you to say about them?"—he said "I opened the letters and fastened the flaps down again, and I did not appropriate any portion of the contents"—I gave him in custody.

Cross-examined. The other two letters were delivered and found to be correct—when I met you at 11 o'clock you said that you were going to

deliver them; they had been opened and sealed down again, but the contents had not been abstracted.

LUKE HANTS . I am a policeman attached to the Post Office—I was with Mann when he stopped the prisoner—I have heard his evidence and corroborate it—I searched the prisoner and found a sovereign, a half-sovereign, 4s. 7 3/4 d., land some pieces of paper containing wet gum—when he was charged he said "I beg to state that I did not steal it; I only appropriated it, and the money found in my possession is only 8l. short of the amount."

JOHN CLEGG . I am inspector of the E.C. office—I took the contents of the prisoner's pocket and had the four letters delivered—they were unpaid, and were for 139, Cannon Street—they were not registered, but not being stamped double postage was charged on them—I delivered them and other portions owing to the prisoner on his walk, and I handed his wife 6s. 5d. for unpaid letters, which he had left on his walk.

Cross-examined. Letter carriers are in the habit of leaving unpaid letters for different firms, and they have a running account.

The Prisoner's Statement before the Magistrate. "I can only say I had no intention to steal it. I had run into debt, and intended to replace it within half an hour, when the detective stopped me."

Prisoners' Defence. I give you my word I had no intention to steal this letter. We had an extra delivery, and an extra letter was sent to me after the letters were delivered, and I put it in my pocket and took it home, and I used it till the Monday morning when money was due to me, and I intended to replace it.

GUILTY . Recommended to mercy by the Jury.—Four Months' Hard Labour.

OLD COURT.—Tuesday, December 13th, Wednesday 14th, and Thursday 15th, 1887.

Before Mr. Justice Stephen.

Reference Number: t18871212-114

114. LEON SERNE(38) and JOHN HENRY GOLDFINCH(30) were indicted for the wilful murder of Isaac Serne.

MR. POLAND and MR. CHARLES MATHEWS Prosecuted; MR. GEOGHEGAN and MR. LAWLESS Defended Serne, and MR. FULTON and MR. HUTTON Defended Goldfinch.

JOHN DIXON BUTLE . I am a surveyor—I prepared this model (produced)—it correctly shows the houses from 273 to 276, Strand, also the house 274 prior to the file as nearly as we were able to get it, the interior being gutted—at the time I made the model there was no roof to 274; I have supplied that—I have shown here the windows at the back of 275, from which it is easy to see the two windows at the 2nd and 3rd floors back of 274—the access from the 3rd floor back room to the roof of 275 is perfectly easy, the flooring of that back room is still left fairly complete—once on the roof you can go along the gutter which runs along immediately outside that back window (the witness pointed out to the Jury the several portions of the model)—the frame of that window had been burnt.

Cross-examined by MR. GEOGHEGAN. The distance from the sill of that window to the floor is about four feet four inches; the end of the gutter would be level with the middle of the window.

WALTER YOUNG (Policeman E 201) and HENRY ARTHUR JONES, surveyor,

of 7, Adam Street, Adelphi, produced and proved plans of the premises, and explained them to the Jury.

JOHN TROUTBECK . I am Deputy Coroner of the City and Liberty of Westminster—on 20th September I commenced an inquest on the bodies of two boys, Isaac and Leo Serne; the prisoner Serne was sworn and examined as a witness—I took down his evidence—I produce my original notes—after him the prisoner Goldfinch was sworn and examined—I took notes of his evidence which I produce—other witnesses were examined on that day, and then there was an adjournment to the 27th—no evidence was taken then—there was a further adjournment to the 11th October—Goldfinch was then recalled, and gave further evidence; after Mrs. Serne and her daughter Kate—Serne did not attend on that occasion; he sent a doctor's certificate that he was suffering from quinsey. (The depositions were read as follows: "LEO SERNE, 274, Strand, hairdresser, sworn, said The deceased are my two sons, Isaac Serne and Leo Serne; Isaac Serne was 14 years old; Leo Serne was 11 years old. My wife, my four children, my servant and myself were in the house on Saturday evening; three of the children went to bed at half-past 9 in the room next to my bedroom; the fourth child went to bed with me. I went to bed at half-past 12; the bedrooms are at the top of the house at the back; the servant went to bed at the same time; he sleeps front room, top floor. My wife awakened me about 2.30 am; she said there was smoke round the gaslight. I opened the door, and saw a mass of smoke. I pulled my children out of their room into my room. I helped them out of the window on to the roof. There was a fire in the front first floor; I left it in; it was burning very small. I left no gas alight; I left no candle or lamps alight. I keep no oil or petroleum in the house. I have been in the house five months. I tried to insure it. No company would take it. I paid a premium to a clerk in the 'North British Fire Insurance,' on the 1st of September. The premium was for the stock-in-trade and furniture. I do not know if the house itself was insured; the house was refused because it was considered dangerous. I took special precautions as to fires. I turned out the gas. Two gentlemen were with me till 10.45 p.m. Saturday. They were smoking. I smoked; that was in the 1st floor room. I saw no flame when I was roused. After ten minutes staying in the gutter I was helped into another window by the police. I can give no idea myself how the fire originated. We all went to bed at about 12.45 a.m." "JOHN GOLDFINCH, assistant to Mr. Serne, sworn, said: I assisted in putting out the lights at 12 o'clock. I went to bed at 12.45. I had been downstairs all the evening at work till 12; there were customers till then. No customers were smoking. The two gentlemen were smoking in ground floor back. They were Mr. Smith and Mr. Keenan. I went into the room at 11.30 after they left. I noticed nothing then; no smell of fire. Mr. Serne remained in the room until we retired at 12.45. I was also with him. There was a fire in the room. It was very low when we went up. We both smoked until 12.45. I am sure no matches were thrown about. Mrs. Serne was there as well. Nobody sleeps on the ground floor. There are no oils kept in the back room. I was alarmed by screams from the back room, about 1.30. I opened the window. I tried to get into the back room; I was suffocated and went back to the window. I called again. I got no answer. The escape was brought, and I got down by the escape. I have no idea where or how the fire arose. There was a small fender; there

was no guard. I put two small lighted coals on the hob; there was stone round the fireplace. On the first flour was one room used for an office. The 2nd floor two rooms; one as a sitting-room, the other as a kitchen; it has been used as a bed-room occasionally. I was not in that room. There was a small tank for hot water in the room over the shop over the front door; it was heated by gas; it is never empty. The gas was put out about 11.30 p.m.; the gas is not turned off from the main. Recalled. I have been three or four months with Mr. Serne. I have been employed by him previously at casual times. I lived and slept at the house, and had 17s. 6d. a week. Mr. Smith did Serne's correspondence. I was awakened by the screaming. I was sound asleep in bed, undressed. I found the room full of smoke. I opened the window at once, and looked out. I had nothing but my shirt on. I dragged my trousers on, and tried to get into the back room. I found the smoke so thick I could not get there. My room door is 10 feet from the boys' door. I found the escape outside near the window. I came down. I had only my trousers and shirt on. I only leant on the window two or three minutes. I was then putting my trousers on. The escape arrived as I got back to the window. I am quite sure I had not my coat on. Mr. Serne and his wife did not quarrel as far as I heard. I heard the name of Harry, my name. My real name is John Henry. I am always called Harry by the family. I heard nothing said besides that. I heard nothing fall downstairs. I heard nothing of the cats. I did not hear a call of murder. Mr. and Mrs. Serne quarrelled occasionally. I do not know why the little girl was removed the night before. I never knew for certain where the children would sleep. I was not asked to rescue the boys. I had been in bed three-quarters of an hour; sound asleep. The boys were treated very kindly by the parents; they were always clothed decently; they had new suits of clothes recently. I did not know the amount of furniture; there was a bedstead, chair, and carpet and cupboard in my room; there was perfumery in the shop. The hair-dressing business was not very extensive. He Lad 1,000 tins of capuala; they held about 4 ounces. There were a quantity in my bedroom, and a quantity in the office; the principal ingredient was hogs' lard. Mr. Serne never had any gunpowder to my knowledge. I know Mr. Antincke. Mr. Serne had no interest in his house. I saw him about a week previous to the fire. I think between 6s. and 7l. was taken weekly in the business. The advertisements' are made of gelatine. As I came down the fire escape the fireman that passed me asked if I was alright. I told the fireman the people were in the house. I knew it was easy to get out at the back in case of fire. We often talked about the place burping. He never mentioned any way but by the window. The pointed can produced was used for lime water; the other tins I have not seen before. I think the hairdressing stock, without the tools in the saloon, was worth 20l. to 25l. The daughters slept in the second floor front room. A large order was returned of the capuala. I don't think any of the tins were under the foot of the stairs. The smoke was very black.")

Cross-examined by MR. GEOGHEGAN. There was a very long inquiry at the inquest—during the course of it Inspector Conquest, who was in charge of the case, communicated with me, and it was partly from his information that I examined the witnesses—amongst them was Margaret Stanley, of 47, Holywell Street—she was examined on 20th September,

two days after the death of the two children—there was no committal, therefore the evidence was not read over to serne, and he had no opportunity of correcting any mistakes he may have made—Mrs. Burton was examined on the first day—the prisoner's two daughters were also examined, and Mrs. Serne—she spoke English, and the prisoner also, quite easily; there was no interpreter necessary.

PETER MCGORE . I am superintendent of the stables of Messrs. W. H. Smith and Sons in Water Street—about 1.30 on Sunday morning, 18th September, I was out in the street—I heard a whistle, and followed a police constable up the Strand to almost opposite 274—I did not at that time see anything coming from the shop window of 274—I went over to the shop window and looked through—I saw a fire about four or five feet high in the left-hand corner at the back; there was a flame of about four to five feet high from the ground; there was a space of about four or five feet between the flame and the ceiling—I went directly to the opposite side of the street and looked up at the premises, and saw fire and smoke coming from the second-floor window; it was apparently burning very fierce—that was about a quarter of a minute after I had seen the fire on the ground floor—I saw nothing whatever to connect the fire in the shop with the fire on the second floor.

Cross-examined by MR. GEOGHEGAN. When I looked into the shop I only saw one fire—my attention was called to the fire by the whistle; I believe it was a constable's whistle; there were two or three constables there—I could not say how far the fire I saw was from the window; it was in the left-hand corner; it was burning in a twirling position, the smoke and flame were rolling up—when the smoke cleared away I could see it was about four or five feet high—I did not go to the back of the premises in Holywell Street, I know nothing at all about that—when I got across the street I saw the fire was burning very fierce—it all seemed to flare up at once, it burnt very rapidly.

Cross-examined by MR. FULTON. I could not say whether the window of the second floor was open or shut; very probably the fire broke the glass—the flames were coming through the window; whether the window was open or not I could not say.

ALEXANDER ROSS (Policeman E 210). I was on duty in the Strand on the night of 17th September—in the course of my duty I passed in front of 274, Strand, at 20 minutes to I—I saw a light in the shop—I had been on that beat for about a fortnight—my attention had never been called to a light in the shop at so late an hour during that fortnight—I tried the shop door and found it secure—I then looked in over the window and saw the prisoner Serne sitting along with another gentleman smoking cigars, and glasses in front of them—the shop window is plate glass—there was a counter or ledge with some stock on it; there was a glass case painted white running up the back of where the stock was exposed for sale; the white paint ran up about half way up the glass; the glass was on the wall behind where the stock was—the two men were sitting behind the glass, one on the right, and Serne right in front—there were no shutters; I had to look over the window—it was an open shop; it was not shut up in any way—the glass was, I should say, about four feet high from the ground—the painted glass would obscure the shop from the street—I stood on tiptoe to look in; I had to do that in order to look over—I was looking in for about two minutes—the two men remained in the

same position smoking; they appeared to be talking—I was then called to assist a brother constable in Clare Market—I remained away about half an hour; as I was returning in the direction of Wych Street I heard a number of whistles blowing—I went in that direction to the outside of 274, Strand—my attention was called to the shop door by a small reflection through the crack of the door—as near as I could say it was then about hall-past one—I tried to force the shop door, but did not succeed—another constable came; he tried to burst open the adjoining door; he did burst it, and went in—I could not tell his name, there were so many—two or three of us burst open the door of 275—before I did that my attention was called to the shop window—when I looked in I saw a small fire burning on the right side of the shop door, and in the left hand corner I saw a fire burning briskly—the fire to the right was about a foot from the shop door—it was burning very slowly; it appeared as if it was something on fire, it was rising; it ran right up the wall in small flames; it had got up about four feet when I saw it; it was immediately behind the door—the fire at the left-hand corner was burning all in a mass; it had got about a foot high; it appeared to be some wood burning—the fire to the left was the higher of the two; that was about a foot high; the other was three or four feet high, but the flames were very small, running up the wall—the left fire was all in a mass; it covered more fire than the one to the right; it was about 18 inches broad—the other I took to be fifteen inches broad; it ran part of the way up—the flames grew thinner as they went up—there were two or three flames running up the wall at the same time—as near as I could judge the two fires were 12 or 14 feet apart—as far as I could see there was nothing to connect them—my brother constable came up after I had observed the fires; with his and others' assistance I forced the door of 275—by that time a good many constables had come up—when we forced the door we went into the passage and up the stairs—some glass was broken at that time by one of the constables—we called out "Where are you, where are you?" as loud as we could—I heard loud screams at the time, apparently from a woman, "Oh, my boys, my boys"—at that time the smoke in 275 was very dense, so much so that we all had to return to the street—I remained outside whilst some of my brother constables effected an entrance to 277—by the time I got in 274 was all ablaze; the fire escape was there—I could not say whether Goldfinch was rescued by a fireman; I saw him come down the escape from the top floor—I remained there till six in the morning; by that time the fire had been extinguished—the fire escape was kept by St. Clement's Church, about 50 yards from 274—I was not examined before the Coroner—I first gave evidence before the Magistrate on 3rd November.

Cross-examined by MR. GEOGHEGAN. The nearest fixed point is Temple Bar; that is occupied by a man of the Metropolitan Police up to one a.m.—after that the nearest one is in Drury Lane—when I looked in the shop other constables came up along with me, Nos. 181, 54, and 100; those were all I saw—the blinds were not drawn—there was nothing to prevent persons passing by looking in and seeing the fires—I did not see McGore there—when I saw the fires it struck me as very suspicious—I knew there was a Coroner's inquest two or three days afterwards—I did not hear much speaking about it—I and 181 did not speak about it—I was not left in charge of the premises; I was there keeping back the crowd—I assisted

to move one of the boys to the mortuary—I knew that Inspector Conquest had charge of the investigation before the Magistrate—I did not make a report to him at the time; I did on 28th October—I did not knew that the first inquiry before the Magistrate was on 13th October—I did not mention to any one what I had seen until after the second examination—I knew there was an inquiry the day after the first examination before the Magistrate—I asked my inspector, Mr. Hines, if I should make out a report, and he said there were two or three making reports—he did not say whether or not I should be wanted to make a report—I did nothing besides telling Conquest; I was not asked—he sent for me on 28th October, and asked it I knew anything about the fire—I told him I did, and then I made a statement to him—I could not say whether the other constables were there when I looked through the window; I did not notice—Inspector Hines told me that Bush, 181, was making a report—he did not say he was the only one; he said there were some others making out reports; I swear that—I did not tell my inspector that I saw the two fires—I thought it a suspicious circumstance—the fire was burning within a foot of the door; I don't know the one who was sitting on the right side—Serne was sitting in front of me; the one on the right was about five feet from the shop door; they were both smoking cigars—I take it that the painted glass was about 4 feet from the ground; I am about 4 feet 10 inches with my boots on—I had a good look over to make sure that no one had broken into the shop—I got no tip-toe and had a good look at the men.

Cross-examined by MR. HUTTON. I was there when Goldfinch came down the escape; he was in a very exhausted state—between 18th September and 3rd October, when the cans were found, the ruins had been visited by a number of persons, surveyors, and gentlemen connected with the press.

WILLIAM BLUNDEN (policeman E 100). About half-past 1 a.m. on Sunday, 18th September, I was in Howard Street, Strand, when I smelt fire—I immediately ran into the Strand and up to 274, where there was a shop window, which I looked through—I saw a fire on the right-hand corner of the shop window against the door-post, three or four feet from the door—I should think the flame ran two or three feet high; it did not run very wide, not so wide as high—I went more to the right, towards where the fire was, and looked through the same shop window at another place, and saw flames in the left-hand corner of the shop; it was very much in flames; I should say the flames were about four or five feet high, I could not say exactly; it was about three feet wide, I should say—It was the much larger fire of the two—the two fires were five to six yards apart, I should say—there was nothing between the two fires that I could see to connect the one fire with the other—I saw two or three constables there when I came up; I could not give the name of any person who was there when I came up; they were men in uniform, but they were upon the spot before I was—after I had seen the fires I broke into 275, next door, and, accompanied by brother constables, I made my way up some of the staircase of 275—a glass was broken—I heard screaming, it was a woman's voice shouting "Help"—some of our body called out as loudly as they could "Where are you? Where are you?"—the smoke in 275 then became very dense, and we were

obliged to make our way back to the street; the flames and smoke, too, were coming through and getting hold of 275—when I got back to the street I went in the next house, accompanied by other constables, amongst them being Johnson—I made my way up the staircase to the back—when I arrived opposite to a window my attention was called to people on a roof outside—one of the constables said "Here they are on the leads"—on the ledge of the roof outside, opposite to the window, I saw four persons, the prisoner Serne, his wife, and two daughters—they were rescued through the back window of 277 by the aid of the police—the cries I had heard when in 275 continued as I went from 275 to 277, and up the stairs there; they were always the same kind of cries, for help, and "Where are my boys?"—those cries continued up to the time of the rescue—the woman, when she was brought down, was very much upset by the look of her, she seemed almost crazy—she was undressed, with her nightdress on—I did not see that the prisoner Serne had anything on but his nightdress when I saw him, I did not notice that he had anything more on—I did not see that the two girls had anything more than their nightdresses on when I saw them at the window.

Cross-examined. I could not say whether Serne was in his bare feet, I did not notice that—I should think Howard Street is a minute's walk from 274; it is on the left-hand side going west, and runs from Norfolk to Arundel and Surrey Streets—just before I got into the Strand I heard a constable's whistle—when I got up to the shop there were two other constables there, 181 and 176—I saw 210 after I got there, I got there before he did; when he came up I was trying to break the door open—I did not see what he did—when I looked in the window I could see two separate and distinct fires, one three or four feet from the door and the other in the left-hand corner—I had to go to two different places at the window before I could see the two fires—I went up to the window and could see the fire in the left-hand corner, I could see the right-hand corner too—I had to go to a different part of the window to see the fire in the left-hand corner—I should think I was there about half a minute before Ross, 210, came up—I live at the station; Boss does not live at the station that I do; I very often see him on duty; we have not chatted about the fire—I paid no attention to two different fires burning in the shop.

By the COURT. I was called on to make a statement as to what I saw—I can swear I saw it—I mean at that time I made no particular remark of it in my own mind.

By MR. GEOGHEGAN. I first mentioned having seen two fires burning in the shop, on Friday, 28th October, I believe—I mentioned it to Inspector Conquest; he sent for me and asked me what I knew about the fire in the Strand—I mentioned this about two fires—that was the first time I mentioned it to any one; from 18th September to 28th October I kept it in my own breast—I was asked by the inspector to make a full report of what I did at the fire—he told me to attend the inquest; I did so; I did not give evidence there—I did not hear McGore give his evidence, I was not allowed to go in—I was not called as a witness at the inquest—I saw Inspector Conquest there; I did not know he had charge of the inquest—he might have been there for several things—he is my superior officer, he is our local inspector—Inspector Hines was there—I did not mention to him about the two fires—I was

at the inquest because I might be called on—I live at 64, Bow Street, 60 yards away, I suppose, from the police-court—I knew an inquiry was being held at the police-court when it was on—I saw in the paper that Serne and Goldfinch were apprehended, I cannot give you the date—I could not say how long it was before I spoke to Inspector conquest—I first spoke to Policeman 360 about this matter on 28th October—I do not think it was so long as three weeks before that that I read in the paper the two men were in custody on a charge of arson; it was some time before I gave my evidence—I knew that arson meant, that serne was accused of setting fire to this house; I saw it in the paper—I did not speak to Conquest before the 28th because I was not called on to do so—I have been rather more than five years in the police force—as they did not call on me at the Inquest I did not think they would think it necessary for me to give what I had seen—Inspector Hines asked me to make out a report on the 18th, I believe—I was to leave it with the office in charge of the station for Mr. Hines—I made it out and gave it to the officer in charge of the station—I saw Inspector Hines on the night before the inquest, the 19th—I had left it at the station before that; he did not ask me for it—I do not know the name of the sergeant to whom I gave it—I did not tell him about it, it was there for him—there might be 10 or 15 station sergeants attached to Bow Street—as I give in reports daily I did not take much notice whom I gave it to—that was 18th September—in that report I did not mention about the two separate fires; until I was spoken to on the 28th I mentioned it to no one.

Re-examined. Nothing was said to me about a reward when I was asked to make out a report—I was told to make out a full report of whatever I did at the fire, as a full report would be given in—this report is in my writing. (The report stated that at 3 o'clock on the 18th instant, being on duty in Norfolk Street, he heard a whistle blowing in the direction of the Strand; that proceeding there he discovered the promises, 274, Strand, to be on fire; that Police Constables 181 and 176 were already there, trying to arouse the inmates; that the police constables assisted to arouse the people, and entered the adjoining house; that they rescued the people, and took them to Glennie's house close by; and that he then returned to the fire, and waited there till relieved).

FREDERICK JOHNSON (358 E). On the early morning of Sunday, 18th September, I was standing at the King's College gates in duty in uniform about 1.30—Mellish, 300, was with me—we heard a whistle, and ran in the direction of the sound to 274, Strand—I saw smoke coming through the cracks of the door there—I assisted to Break open the door of the adjoining house—when I got to the door of No. 274 some private individuals and other constables were there—I did not try the door of No. 274, but I broke open the door of 275—I went along a passage and upstairs to the firstfloor; it was an empty house—I broke a glass window (on the left-hand side of the model) which looked into the second floor of No. 274—I looked through, and about a yard from where I broke the window I saw flames coming through the first floor and running up the Walls—I saw flames coming through the flooring on the second floor, running up the walls—the second floor ceiling was not on fire—I looked into the room above, the third floor, and saw it was one mass of flames, and I saw two distinct fires—our lamps and gone out—I shouted out

"Where are you?" several times—the fire was too general in this house; I had to run out, or else I should have been cut off—before I left I heard nothing else besides my calling out—I and the other constables left the house, and then I assisted to break open the door of the adjoining house, No. 277—I went up the stairs there, and was on the stairs when Mrs. Serne and the two daughters were brought down—she kept saying "Oh, my boys! my boys!"—we could not get her to say where they were—she appeared to me to be frantic with grief—Mrs. Serne and the daughters had their nightdresses on—Serne came downstairs along with or behind his wife, I would not be sure which—he had his drawers and a nightshirt on—I believe his feet were bare—I did not see them actually got in from the gutter of No. 274—they were taken to an adjoining house—I stopped in No. 277 to keep guard there for two or three hours.

Cross-examined. Serne was black and dirty from smoke, and Mrs. Serne appeared frantic with fear and grief; they were both terribly exhausted—the two separate fires I saw were clear and distinct fires; I have no doubt in my own mind they were distinct—I did not know about the inquest; it was three or four weeks after before I knew anything about it—I went on my leave on 19th September, and was away 10 days, and I never heard any more about it—I resumed duty on the 29th, I think—I did not hear that the two men were accused at Bow Street of arson until 26th October, I should think—I did not hear it on 13th October to my knowledge—I was on duty nearly every night in the Strand then—I was not on duty with 210 and 100 E—I did not see them between the inquest and the examination—the other constables mentioned my name to Inspector Conquest, who sent for me and asked me what I knew about the fire—I told him this—until I mentioned it to Inspector Conquest I never mentioned it to any one.

ROBERT MELLUISH (Policeman E 54). I was on duty in the Strand on the early morning of 18th September; I was outside King's College, when I heard a policeman's whistle shortly after half-past one—I went in the direction of it and came up to No. 274—when opposite to that house I saw Goldfinch at the second floor window—he had on a black coat, but no hat—he was leaning on the window; his attention was drawn to two constables underneath the shop—I shouted loudly "Fire!" Fire!" because I saw him looking at the constables underneath, and he seemed to be quite unconcerned—I saw smoke coming from the window immediately below him and passing his face—he could see the constables—after I called "Fire" he left the window—I crossed over the Strand and looked in the shop and saw a small fire on the left band side—I then tried to force the front door of 274; it was fastened too securely—we then forced the door of 275, and I went into 275 with a number of other constables—I was not there when the glass was broken—when the flames burst through the passage separating 274 from 275 I ran out back to the street—I heard screams at the back when I was in 275 and the constable shouting "Where are you?" up the stairs—I remember these words—when I first heard the screams I was in the back of 275 just leading out of the passage—I could not hear them in the street—when we forced the door of 277 we heard them again—after getting into the street we went to 277; I and other constables went through the door there, and then heard screams again—I could not say it was a woman's voice; it seemed to be screaming altogether—I could not hear any distinct words—I

made my way up to the second floor back of 277, and I was present when the window was smashed and the people rescued from the leads—when the woman came from the leads on the staircase she said "Oh, my two boys" or "Oh, my poor boys"—Serne said nothing—I put a question to Mrs. Serne; I believe Serne had gone downstairs then; I could not say; it was very dark—before Mrs. Serne was taken in through the window from the roof I heard the fireman on the roof say "Have you got her?" and I said "Yes, let her go"; that was the only conversation that passed with me; that was when I got her—I afterwards came down and went back to the Strand—I remained there till half-past four—I believe I was inside at the back when Goldfinch was brought down.

Cross-examined by MR. GEOGHEGAN. When I saw the Sernes taken off the roof the smoke was very dense, I don't know that the firemen were already on the roof with them before the police saw them in the gutter—I heard the fireman say "Have you got her?"—that was some time after the window was smashed—I could not say he was in the gutter at that time.

Cross-examined by MR. FULTON. 181 E and 397 E were the constables on the pavement looking up—I saw nothing when I came up to Mr. McGore, the superintendent of Messrs. Smith's stables—I know who you mean; I believe I was there before him; I did not see him that night—the window of the second floor was open when I got there; I pledge my oath to that—I did not see it shut—when the door of the next house was broken open, the second floor window remained open, I believe—I remained on the pavement with the two constables till I broke the door open—before I broke the door open Goldfinch had left the window; when he left be left the sash of the window open; I am quite sure of that—after the house got well alight I saw flames coming out of that window; that was after the Sernes had been rescued, after I got out again into the Strand—before the door was broken open I saw nothing of any flames coming out of the second floor window; no flames were coming out of, that window at that time—I remained on duty till half-past four; the second floor window was open then, I am quite sure—I believe the window opened from the centre, a French window—I had not seen Goldfinch before—I saw him with his elbows upon the window sill—I next saw him at the inquest after he had given his evidence—I did not see him when he was giving it—I saw him come out after he had given it—he was not pointed out to me as Goldfinch; I recognised him as he came out—I made no report of this matter to my superior officer; I told several other constables during Sunday morning—I was examined before the Coroner, and then I said Goldfinch had his coat on—I am sure it was a black coat, an ordinary black cloth coat—when I broke the door open I and the other two constables all went in together.

Re-examined. I saw Goldfinch come out of the room in which the coroner was holding his inquiry—I did not know at that time that he had been examined as a witness—I never saw him before the night of the tire, and then the next time I saw him was as he left the room in which the coroner was holding his inquiry, and I pointed him out in the Coroner's Court—I did not know at that time what he was, or what was his position in regard to Serne, or anything of the kind.

GEORGE BUSH (Policeman E 181). On early morning, 18th September, I was on duty in the Strand—about 25 minutes to 2 my attention was attracted by the smell of smoke—I got in the centre of the roadway, and

looked up the houses on the north side of the Strand, and saw a curl of smoke rising from die houses; I could not say what house it came from—I remarked it to policeman 397 who came up at the time—I ran round the coiner of Holy well Street to see if it was in Holy well Street—I could see nothing there—I came again to the coiner of the Strand—I could see smoke issuing from the first floor window of 274, Strand—I blew my whistle, and sent Policeman 397 to the fire escape in St. Clement's Church-yard—I tried to break in the door of 274, Strand, but it was very securely fastened—I could not get in—by that time several other constables had arrived, and with assistance I burst open the door of 275—we went through the passage there on the ground floor into a large room at the back, and then upstairs—we found it no good going up; the smoke was so dense, and the flames were getting hold of 275; they came from the ground floor of 274—we had to return—we got back to the Strand—Goldfinch was rescued immediately I arrived in the Strand again—he was brought from this top window (pointing to the model)—I did not notice how he was dressed.

Cross-examined by MR. GEOGHEGAN. I first saw fire in the left-hand corner of the shop, which would be the part that looked towards Holy well Street.

ALBERBT ASHBY . I am a fireman stationed at Great Scotland Yard—on early morning of 18th September I was on duty with the escape at St. Clement's Church—we had a call by a stranger at 1.41 a.m., and we at once went with the fire escape to 274, Strand—we put the escape against the house up to the top floor window—it took about a couple of minutes I suppose to get to the house—the ground and first floors were well alight—almost before the escape touched the house Goldfinch jumped out into it, and I assisted him down, and the flames then burst out from the ground and the first floor windows, and set fire to the escape—Goldfinch said nothing to me—he was dressed in his trousers and shirt; he had no coat on—we shifted the escape to the next house (273) to eastward, and got on the top of it, because we heard cries from the roof—I went over in the direction of the cries—when I got to the back of the house I found four persons in their nightdresses; Serne, Mrs. Serne, and their two daughters—I at once assisted them from the gutter in at a window of the adjoining house 277, where the police were—the woman was in a very frantic state—she was crying out "Oh, my boys; oh, my poor boys"—Serne was the last one that went in through the window, and I asked him, and he said "They are in there"—I saw the small back window which leads into the gutter from 274—the fire was through the roof then; it was impossible for me to gain an entrance to search—then we made our way back again the same way as we came over the roofs of the houses to the front, and got down the escape into the street, and assisted in extinguishing the fire—the fire burnt the place out; all the back part of the roof fell in—after the fire was put out between 5 and 6 in the morning, I saw the body of the younger boy found in the basement, a boy between 10 and 11 years of age—the head and arms and body were burnt—he had no clothes on him—there was only part of the ground floor and the basement and one room in the front at the top where the flooring had not fallen in—all the other part had all fallen in; you could look down to the basement from the next house—all the stairs were burnt away—you could walk in the top room, but it was not safe—all the

flooring was gone of 274, and the roof had fallen in—we went into 275, and then from the gutter in at the small window at the back—I did not see the second body found; I did not go there—I am quite sure Goldfiuch said nothing to me—I did not see him after he came down.

Cross-examined by MR. GEOGHEGAN. There were two of us firemen on the roof—the other fireman has no beard—he was there when Serne was present—Serne did not ask him to rescue his boys—that fireman is Coleman; he is at home—the younger boy's body was found in the basement at the back part of the house—I heard the description of the police as to where the body of the elder boy was found—the body in the basement was nearly underneath where the other one was found—there was enough of the house left for me to tell of the character of the building—it is made of lath and plaster, and very inflammable, like a match box—I did nut see where the staircase was—I see the staircase marked on the plan, and the door on the other side—there would be a tremendous draught up the staircase, which would carry the fire up very quickly to the other room; it would act like a flue.

Cross-examined by MR. FULTON. I rescued Goldfinch out of the top window, the third floor—it was a sash window, which pushes up—flames burst through the middle window, the second floor, as soon as Goldfinch, was out of the building—that second floor window is a sash one also; you push it up—I don't know if it was closed or open—the glass was broken; the flames were coming out—I could not tell if the sash was down or up—I am quite sure it was a sash window—I afterwards examined the premises; it is in the same condition now as it was when the fire was extinguished—I cannot say if the sash was burnt—Haslin was left in charge; I was not.

Re-examined. If the bottom doors of the house were opened, there would be more draught—the shop door was open when I got my escape there.

ROBERT DOBBIN . I am a member (No. 74) of the Salvage Corps—I was in charge of the premises 274, Strand, on 18th September when the body of the elder boy was discovered on the top floor—it was close to the window, with its head inclined towards No. 273—I did notice any clothes on the body, which was terribly burnt and disfigured—it was lying on the flooring, as near as I could say—I did not stop long; as soon as I saw it I went away—about seven or eight feet of flooring was left immediately under the window up the chimney—by that window access is gained to the roof—there was no glass in that window when I saw it—it was open from the room to the roof—the sill of the window and the wood leading up to the window had been burnt; a portion of it was left there—I could not see any remains of window frame holding panes of glass—that body was found about 4 o'clock in the morning, I should think; I don't know—all the other flooring on the top floor had collapsed; this eight feet was all that remained—I did not see the slightest signs of any bed, or bedding, or furniture, or anything of that sort in the room, only a tin chest, part of an umbrella, and an old book and this large chest containing correspondence, that was all—I remained in charge of the premises down to 4th October—between those dates I noticed the place where the staircase had been in the house—the staircase was completely destroyed by fire undoubtedly—on 4th October I was present when these three cans were found in or near the basement—when this pointed can was found the detective in charge of the place smelt it and passed it to me; it smelt of

paraffin—I noticed nothing in it—he only gave it to me to smell, and then passed it on one side—the three cans were found close together close to and under where the staircase had been—besides those I saw a large quantity of capuala advertisement paper, newspapers, small advertisement papers found near them—they were round the tins, lying scattered close to and round about these tins, and round and underneath where the stairs had been—there were 50 or 60 pounds of the capuala transparencies—they were all more or less burnt—they are all now in the condition they were produced to me—these are about the best among them; some were more burnt than others—almost immediately afterwards I made some experiments with them to see how they would burn, but they were wet, and would not burn—when dry they were tried in my presence in the Coroner's Court, and burnt very fiercely—besides the tins and the transparencies I found about half a dozen newspapers scattered about near the transparencies and the tins—besides those I was present when some 12 or 14 empty tins (I forget the exact number) were found—they had had capuala in, some greasy material; small portions were left, and some of them were burnt out—I saw some in relation to the staircase and other things—I did not notice any other bottles there at that time—I was present when a number of those tins, both full and empty, were found in the front room on the top floor, 371 full and 380 empty tins; some of them were labelled capuala—I don't know if most of them were labelled, nor if the empty ones were labelled as well as the full; we did not take that notice—I remained some considerable time in charge of the promises—there had been a fireplace in the front shop; it had been match-boarded over—that had been in the first floor—there was no fireplace at all in the front shop—there was a fireplace in the room running at the back of the shop—there had been a fireplace in what had been the first floor room; the floor had been removed and that fireplace match-boarded over—it formed a portion of the wall of the shop; the ceiling of the shop going up to what had been the ceiling of the first floor—there was a fireplace in the room at the back of the shop—I don't know if there was a partition running between the two rooms on the ground floor; there are no remains of it now—there was no fireplace in the front, or what seemed to be the front room—the only fireplace in the front was the fire-place that had been in the first floor when the first floor existed—it is match-boarded over now.

Cross-examined by GEOGHEGAN. There was carpet on the ground floor at the back in front of the fireplace; that was charred—the place was very inflammable, lath and plaster—the whole place was in a blaze within half an hour—the tins and capuala were found on 4th October by Howe, a labourer—I saw him find them—they wore close to the capuala tins, scattered round, not piled together—the other tins were found under the staircase—not one of the tins is a gunpowder tin—the capuala is stuff used in making this greasy stuff—some greasy stuff is used in preparing them—part of the building was of oak—oak catches fire very slowly—if old it creates a very dense smoke—this oak was old by the look of it—I don't think after smouldering it would burst out; it burns red hot—it gives out dense smoke.

Cross-examined by MR. FULTON. I don't think the window and window-frame of the front of No. 274 remained; I could not say for certain—I went over the place the morning after the fire—I could not tell you

whether the windows or window-frames, or any portion of them, remained in any of the floors.

WILLIAM MAYNE . I am an officer of the Salvage Corps—I was in charge in turning over the ruins after the fire—I was present when six newspapers were found; I smelt them at the time; I could not distinguish that they had any particular smell—I was present when these 12 or 14 tins were found underneath the staircase—I was also present when 700 of the capuala tins were found on the top floor; some were half empty, some were labelled and some not—they were affected by hot smoke; nothing more.

WILLIAM FEATHERSTONE . I am a labourer attached to the Salvage Corps—on 3rd October I was assisting in turning over the rubbish of the ruins—in the basement, where the stairs had been, I found this tin case, labelled "Gunpowder, Shultz "; it was empty—the tin was intact—there had been no explosion—I also saw some of the 13 or 14 small tins found and some of the labels.

GEORGE ERNEST HAZLETT . I am a surgeon, living at 3, Whitehall Place, Gravesend—I am now at the London Hospital—on Monday, 19th September last, I saw the bodies of the two boys at the mortuary in Denzil Street; they were terribly scorched—I examined them for the purpose of forming an opinion as to the cause of death—in my opinion they died from suffocation, caused by burning, produced by the smoke from the fire—from the intense smoke I think it probable that suffocation would be the cause of death.

MARGARET STANLEY . I live with my husband at 47, Holywell Street, Strand—our house runs behind the block of buildings of which 274 was one—274 was next door but one from the front of the house in Holywell Street—I was at home on the night of 17th September; I went up to bed about one—I slept on the first floor—my husband keeps a shop—as I was going upstairs my attention was attracted by a woman calling "Help, my God, my boys, there's murder"—those cries came from the back—I went into the scullery, which is at the back with a side window—the cries still continued—I heard a woman say "Don't, don't, my God, my boys, no"—I think I then went into the front room that faces towards Holywell Street, and is my bedroom—my husband was at home; he got into bed when I went into the scullery—he was in bed when I returned into the front room—I did not get into bed; I stopped there about two minutes—the woman was still screaming when I went back into the scullery—I still heard the woman calling out "My God, my boys, murder"—I should say that when I went into the front room I undressed with the intention of going to bed—the woman was crying out when I went back—the cries continued the whole time I was undressing—then it was that I went back into the scullery—after I had been there some few minutes I heard a man's voice—I could not understand what he said; it was in some language that I did not understand—after that I heard the same man's voice say "Get in" and something else, which I did not quite catch—the woman kept calling out "My God, my boys," and "Murder! will any one help?"—at the time I heard the man's voice saying "Get in" the woman called out "No, no," and she kept calling out "My God, my boys, help, for God's sake, help, murder!"—besides the man and woman's voice I heard a very feeble voice; it was a different voice from the other two—I should think it was a child's voice—at that time I

heard a strange noise, and I heard this weak voice call out "Oh, oh' three times to the best of my recollection—the noise was like something going downstairs; it was not a piece of furniture; it was a kind of thud, au unearthly noise—I thought at the time it was something going from the top to the bottom of the house—close upon that the woman screamed out "My God, my boys"—she kept calling out "My God my boys, murder," till I heard the policeman's whistle—I afterwards went into the front room and looked out of the front window in Holywell Street—it was quite half an hour from the time I heard the first cries until I went back the second time and looked out of the window—it was about one when I was going to bed, and about 1.30 when I looked out of my window towards Holywell Street—I saw two constables running on the other side of the road—I called out "What is the matter, constables?" but they did not hear me—then I saw smoke coming from the next door but one, the hatter's—the constables ran up Holywell Street, and I believe they said "It is all right here"—I called out, but one was calling to the other at the time—I was in my nightdress—I put on my ulster cloak—I went into the street—I was a minute or two finding my cloak—when I was at the bottom I saw the foreman moving the escape from St. Clement Danes Church—I asked some one running from the Law Courts where the fire was—I went back to my house and then to 274, and saw the premises on fire—I remained a little time, and returned home.

Cross-examined by MR. GEOGHEGAN. I stayed in Carrigan's house an how—I do not know the time—Carrigan came in, and said there were two boys lost—there had not been a discussion as to the boys being lost before that—Carrigan was out when the fire was lit in the coffee-room—he went out twice after that, and when he came back he said he had been to Pigill's to see if they were there, and he had been to Charing Cross Hospital the second time—that must have been after he told me the two boys were lost; it was the first intimation I had—we have known Carrigan as neighbours since we have been living there—I had not been to his place till that night—he was a hatter in the same street—I did not tell Carrigan of the cries I heard, because he was not indoors many minutes—his daughters were there, and his wife—one daughter said "Have you heard about the fire?"—I did not think it was a fire, because the woman called out "Murder"—I do not know the Dutch for mother—it was the same voice as cried out "My boys"—had it been cried I must have heard "Moeder"—I did not hear the girl scream out "Murder"—I did not hear he cry, "Hold your row; shut up"—I heard a sentence in a foreign language, something I did not understand—the child's cry was a pitiful wail of "Oh"—I did not say I heard the child's voice; You asked me the question—I said "Yes"—it was a child's voice crying for help—I concluded so at the time—I was asked, and said the noise in the staircase was a thumping noise—at the police-court you asked me how long after hearing the bumping I heard the child's voice—it did not sound like furniture being moved—I accept the word "thump"—it was a thumping or thudding noise—I did not call it an unearthly noise; I said the child's voice was unearthly—the noise was unearthly, accompanied with the child's cry—it was a composite sound of thudding and thumping, and a child's cry—I was greatly impressed by the noise and cries—I thought an awful tragedy had taken place—I said

at the police-court "I thought it was a man and his wife quarrelling"—my husband heard the call of murder—I told him there must be a man and his wife having a dreadful quarrel—he said he would not interfere between a man and his wife—I said "I begin to think it is something more than a man and his wife quarrelling," and I went in to him and heard the child crying.

LOUISA SPEED . I am the wife of James Speed of 48, Holywell Street—on the night of the fire I was sleeping on the first floor back—274, Strand would be at the back—I went to bed a little after 11—I went to sleep I was awakened by the cry of "Help," and "My poor boys," in a woman's voice—I heard a man say "For God's sake hold your row"—the woman kept crying "Help, help, my poor boys"—I got up, called my father, and dressed myself—I heard some one falling downstairs as if they bumped themselves on every step—that was before I got out of bed—I dressed partially—I called my father first, and as I was dressing myself the voice was still crying "Help, help, my poor boys"—I looked out of the first floor back to set what was the matter—I could smell burning, and could see there was a fire—the smoke and thumping noise came from my left as I looked out—from the direction of 274, Strand—I called and dressed my mother—then I went to the third floor back, and looked oat of window to see how the fire was progressing, and I heard a different man's voice say, twice, "Where are you?"—I had heard the breaking of glass—afterwards I heard a woman ask, "Have you got me"—I heard no answer—afterwards I went down into the street—from the time I was awakened to the time I heard the question asked was about 20 minutes—the woman kept on all the time, screaming, "Help, my poor boys."

Cross-examined by MR. GEOGHEGAN. My house is one house nearer 27 than Mrs. Stanley's—her house stands back a little—I did not hear the cry of murder, nor any foreign language.

SARAH SPENCE . I am a general servant at 281, Strand—I was sleeping at the top of the house on the night of 17th and 18th September—my bedroom is at the top, looking into Holywell Street—I went to bed between 12 and 12.30—I was awoke by the screams of a woman calling, "Help, help," and "Murder"—I got out of my bed and opened the window—I heard a woman say, "Oh dear, my poor boys," and "Get into the cupboard; get into the cupboard," in a different voice that sounded like a man's—274, Strand is to the right—the woman's screams continued all the time—I closed my window, but I opened it again; the screams were so terrible—I began to dress myself, and then opened the window the second time—I looked out, and I heard a voice say "Shut up, hold your tongue"—that was the same voice as said "Get into the cupboard"—it was like a man's voice—the woman's screams continued, but I closed my window again—I heard a girl screaming, but no words—I shut my window the second time after that—after I had closed my window the woman still continued screaming—I opened it again, and heard the hanging of a door or a window, and a woman say something I could not understand, and the voice that said "Get into the cupboard" said "Glad to get rid of them," or "him," or "her;" I cannot say which—I can speak positively to the first words—I believe I then heard a faint cry of a boy, but I am not positive from whom it came, and only once—I heard another and louder voice say "Where are you? where are you?" and a smashing of glass; the voice first—the voice was very

much stronger and louder, and a different voice to what I had heard—I saw a lot of smoke to the right, and for the first time I knew it was a fire—the smoke was coming from the direction of 274, Strand—I went downstairs, and got to the second floor of the house, and took a child that was asleep into my care and went downstairs, and to 281—Miss Palmer opened the door, and Mr. and Mrs. Serne came into the house—that was about 20 to 25 minutes after I first came downstairs—from the time I first heard the voice till I heard "Where are you?" was about 10 minutes to a quarter of an hour—Mrs. Serne was in great distress—she was still calling very loudly for her boys—I recognised her voice as the voice that was screaming loudly.

Cross-examined by MR. GEOGHEGAN. I used the expression, "They were clutching each other"—I am sure it was the same voice that said "Glad to get rid of them," as said "Shut up; hold your tongue"—I heard no foreign language at all—I was about seven houses away from 274—after "Hold your tongue," came the expression "Glad to get rid of them"—those expressions were used at different times—there was an interval between them.

HENRY WILLIAM HARRIS . lam a newsagent of 10, Blackfriars Road—Serne rented a shop of me at that address at 12s. a week—it was used as a barber's shop—he also rented three small rooms at the top of the house at 8s. a week—he was there from June, 1885, to last spring—he gave up the shop before he gave up the rooms—I had to put the broker in twice, a Mr. Fish—10l. was owing for rent—it was not paid—the broker was put in again in January for 4l., about four months afterwards—that was not paid.

AUSTIN JOHN FISH . I am a licensed appraiser, of 3, George Street; Blackfriars Road—I knew Serne at the hairdresser's shop, 10, Blackfriars Road—I made three levies on his furniture, I cannot give the dates, the last occasion for 4l.—I saw the furniture at the top of the house, there was not sufficient to satisfy 4l.—I then distrained in the shop on the loose things; their value was 6l.—I withdrew on his making an agreement to pay me 2s. a day, which he did not carry out; I did not get the money—the last levy was in February.

ROBERT KELLY . I live at 57, George Street, Blackfriars Road—I am employed there as a potman—I know Serne—I helped to move his furniture in June, I believe, from Blackfriars Road to the house in the Strand, in a barrow—I went four times altogether, three times and a barrow load of rubbish.

CHARLES BROWN . I am a clerk of the Bloomsbury County Court—I produce a certified copy of a judgment for 10l. 0s. 9d. and 2l. 14s. 10d. costs, dated 31st March last—the plaintiffs were Messrs. Yardley and Co., Ridgmount Street, Store Street, Tottenham Court Road—they are described as perfumers, and it is for goods sold to the prisoners—25th February is the date the summons was served on him.

Wednesday, December 14th.

ALFRED JOHN ISAACS . I am a stationer, of 56, Bishopsgate Street, City—274, Strand belongs to me—Serne applied to me with reference to taking it—I cannot tell the exact month—this is the lease under which he took possession; it is dated 26th April, and is for seven years, from 25th March, at a rental of 200l. a year—I insured the premises for a sum of 1000l. in the North British and Mercantile—I do not think Serne went

into possession till somewhere in June—by an arrangement between us I accepted a quarter of a quarter's rent for the intervening time between 26th April and 24th June—that was paid by him; this is the receipt for 12l. 10s., signed by my clerk—the first quarter's rent would be due on 29th September; that has never been paid.

Cross-examined by MR. GEOGHEGAN. The house was rather an old one—there was a passage from the street into the shop—there was another door besides the street door, and there was a door opening into the shop—I cannot say whether there was a lobby at the tide of the passage, I have not been into the premises—I have for a long time been expecting the Board of Works to pull the house down; I do not think I mentioned that fact to Serne—it had been in contemplation for some years to pull down that part of the Strand.

WILLIE LITTLEJOHN . I am clerk to Messrs. Low, Son, and Haydon, perfumers, 330, Strand—Serne came to our shop about the end of June last; he ordered some goods—he paid a deposit of 5l., on 5th July—we supplied him altogether with goods amounting to 17l. 18s. 3d. from the end of June to 4th August for articles of perfumery for a hairdresser's business—the balance, 12l. 18s. 3d., has never been paid.

DAVID MORRIS . I am a house furnisher, of 250, Pentonville Road, King's Cross—on 14th June this year Serne came to my shop and ordered furniture to be supplied to him at 274, Strand, to the amount of 13l. 2s. 6d.—he was to pay 5l. down and 1l. a month; he did not pay the 5l. down, but I supplied the furniture—I applied several times for the money—he paid 5l. on account; the balance, 8l. 2s. 6d., is still outstanding—I went to 274—I was there on or about 17th August, and then went over the premises—I made a rough estimate in my own mind of the value of the furniture there; as near as I could judge I think the outside value of it was from 20l. to 25l.—I afterwards heard of the fire—I next saw Serne somewhere about 24th September; he came to my place, I think he came with Goldfinch—Serne came into the shop, Goldfinch stood outside—Serne asked me to give him some fresh goods, and said that I could also put 2l. or 3l. extra on to make up for the trouble I had had in calling for the account; he said he was insured, and he expected to get about 500l. or 600l. from the insurance office, and he would then pay me the full amount—that was all, he then left—I believe he joined Goldfinch outside and went away with him—a few days after Goldfinch came alone—he said he came for some bills for Mr. Serne—I asked him what bills—he said he did not know—I said "Tell Mr. Serne I decline to have anything to do with making out fresh invoices"—he then left.

Cross-examined by MR. GEOGHEGAN. I think I went into four rooms at 274—I was by myself—I went into the sitting-room—I passed the bed-rooms, I did not go into them; the doors were open, and I glanced in—I think I said at the police-court I valued the furniture at from 25l. to 30l.—I think 25l. would be the outside value—I say to-day that Serne said he expected to get from 500l. to 600l.; he said so many different sums, I may have said at the police-court from 400l. to 500l.

Cross-examined by MR. FULTON. I am positive that Goldfinch was outside when Serne came—I do not know that I said "I believe" before the Magistrate—Serne was the only person that came into the shop; I saw him come in, and I saw some other person outside; he did not come

into the shop on that day—I could see him very well outside; I am sure Goldfinch Was outside.

CHARLES HKNRY BARNES . I am clerk in the bills of sale department, Central Office of the Royal Courts of Justice—the bills of sale registered there are in my custody—I produce one under date of 17th August, 1886, in which Leon Serne is the grantor and John Hillyer, the grantee—I also produce one dated 4th July, 1887, in which Leon Serne is the grantor and Heny Lewis the grantee.

HENRY LEWIS . I am an accountant, of 122, Alderney Street, Pimlico—in June this year I became acquainted with Serne"—he came to me with reference to an advance which he wanted on his stock and furniture at 274, Siraud—a negotiation was opened between us for that purpose—in the course of it I became a ware of the existence of a bill of sale which Seine had already granted in August;, 1886, on his furniture and other things on the premises, 10, Black friars Road, which he had previously occupied; that was for 40l. and interest—I declined to make him any advance unless that previous bill was given up to me—he afterwards brought it and deposited it with me, under a written authority from Mr. Hillyer, the grantee—it has remained in my custody from that time—on 4th July this year a bill of sale was executed between us—I advanced 80l., which was to be repaid by a sum of 100l. in 25 monthly installments of 4l. each—Serne to insure the stock, furniture, and fixtures, the lease secured the insurance of the premises—he was to keep up the value of the stock to a sum of at least 80l. during the continuance of the bill of sale, and to insure the stock, fixtures, and furniture in a sum of at least 100l.—there is a schedule to the bill under which everything in the house and shop passed to me—one item in the second floor front is 500 tins of capuala and a quantity of transparencies and printed matter; in the second floor front there is an item of 4,000 transparencies for advertising the capuala—I also took as security for the advance a policy covering the plate glass in the shop, and a receipt for half-a-crown as part payment of a premium on a proposal made by him to insure the plate glass on 20th June—the receipt does not mention any sum, simply to replace the glass—he also gave me a charge on the lease of 274, and the lease he deposited with me; also a charge on some hoarding outside the premises used for advertisements—he also gave me a charge on the first floor, which he had let as offices to Messrs. Laing and Smith—the most valuable of those securities was the lease and stock—on 12th August he came and handed me this letter, purporting to come from the agent of the North British and Mercantile Insurance Company. (Read: "12th August, 1887. L. Serne, Esq. Dear Sir, Re 274 Strand. I have made application for an insurance for 600l. on your trade and fixtures, drugs, &c., and you will be held secure until the survey takes place. Yours, F. L. Ashby.") I retained that letter—on the 2nd September he brought me this receipt. (This was for 1l. 15s. 3d. as premium on 700l., signed Jones, for Manager.) Before I took the bill of sale I went over the premises and saw the furniture that was there—there was not sufficient furniture alone to cover the advance—I took the other matters for the purpose of security—the value of the furniture was between 30l. and 40l.

Cross-examined by MR. GEOGHEGAN. I took that as the average value—I

constantly recommended him to insure; that was one of the conditions.

WILLIAM JOHN HEATH . I am a sanitary engineer, at 21, St. Bride Street, Fleet Street—on 26th April I sent Serne an estimate for some work to be done at his house, 274, Strand; it was plumbing work and gas fittings; it was done to the extent of 42l. 7s. 7d.—I received 10l. on account about 14th May—I made many applications for the remainder—I subsequently took proceedings and got execution, but was not able to obtain any portion of the balance—it was protected by a bill of sale.

FREDERICK WRIGHT. I am an Officer of the Sheriff of Middlesex—I sent one of my junior officers to 274, Strand, on 29th August—I saw Serne on the 30th; he came to my office in Chancery Lane—I asked him if he had come to pay the debt—he said "No"—I asked if he could pay anything on account—he said he could not; he was not earning anything; the business was not paying him anything—the amount of debt and costs was 40l. 2s. 7d.—the officer had remained in possession from the previous day—after taking an authority from Serne giving me power to re-enter after the bill of sale, I withdrew the officer—the date of the judgment was 28th July; the warrant was issued on 27th August.

ROBERT JESSOP . I am Valuer to the Sheriff of Middlesex—from instructions from Mr. Wright on 30th August I went to 274, Strand, and went over the premises for the purpose of valuing the stock, fittings, and furniture, to see what they would realise if taken away and sold by auction—I valued them at about 15l. or 16l.—the most valuable would be the shop fittings.

Cross-examined by MR. GEOGHEGAN. 100l. would be an absurd sum to put on the fittings for a sale by auction—we sell three clear days after the usual advertisement—we could hardly sell at a place like that; it was a very small shop—you could not get a company in to buy, if the things were sold there—I should not think they would realise 20l—certainly in the usual course of sale by the Sheriff they would not realise more than 15l. or 16l.

JOHN THOMAS ASHBY . I am a builder, of 8, Wormwood Street, Bishopsgate Street—I am acquainted with Serne—in June this year I fitted up a portion of his shop in the Strand—the work I did, I think, came to 33l. odd—of that 5l. was paid; the balance is still outstanding—I made frequent application for payment, principally by writing—on 30th July I received this letter from the prisoner.

FREDERICK CHARLES SMITH . In July and before and after I was employed by the prisoner in his business in the Strand at a salary of 10s. 6d. a week—I used to write his letters for him upon his instructions—I have seen him sign his name—I wrote this letter under his instructtions; it is signed Leon Serne in my handwriting, and initialed by me. (The letter was read as follows: "Gentlemen, I must ask your kind forbearance until the end of next month. I have been so much pressed for money since I opened here that I have paid away every shilling I could scrape together.")

JOHN THOMAS ASHBY (continued). After that letter we continued to make repeated applications for the money both by letter and through our solicitor—on or about 16th September I received this letter, (This and

the subsequent letter were proved by Mr. Smith to be either written by the prisoner or by his instructions.) "Gentlemen, In reply to your favour of yesterday I must ask you to wait a few days longer, as the cheque promised me has not come to hand. I am anxious to pay. I have had a severe struggle here, and am only just beginning to pull myself round." It was about this time that I placed the matter in the hands of our solicitors, and from that time the correspondence was continued by them—the outstanding 28l. has never been paid—I am one of the agents for the North British and Mercantile Insurance Company—on 12th August this year Serne came to me with regard to an insurance on his furniture, stock, and fittings; he mentioned the amount—he would like the premises insured for 800l. I believe it was—I said as far as I knew the premises it was excessive—he said there was a large amount of stock and drugs relating to veterinary surgeons' business—I said "Very well; we will secure you for 600l. "—the insurance was to take effect from that day, the 12th, when I wrote this letter, "Having made application for insurance, you will be held secure till the survey takes place"—I cannot tell you when the survey would take place—I merely recommended the client and then it was out of my hands; I do not know the practice of the office—I told the prisoner he would be covered from that time till such time as he received the notice from the North British to the amount of 600l.—no payment was made then—I sent the proposal to the office before writing that letter; I called at the office myself and told them I wished this property insured for 600l., and they gave me a memorandum that it would be covered from that time till the survey was made—I did not know at that time that the prisoner had made any proposal himself to the office to insure for 700l.—it is only since the fire that I became aware of that fact—I did not know that he had paid a premium upon it on 1st September until after it was paid—about a week or 10 days before the fire I met the prisoner accidentally—I told him I was surprised that he had not paid our account, and also that I had not received any notice from the North British—he said "Oh, I have paid the premium"—that was the first I had heard of it—no policy had been actually issued at the time of the fire—the policy was issued by the office on 24th September, and I forwarded it to the prisoner on the 27th—this is the policy (produced). (The total amount wan for 700l)

Cross-examined by MR. GEOGHEGAN. I cannot tell whether the premises were surveyed by a surveyor belonging to the Company—I have nothing to do with the internal working of the Company—I should think that the fittings were worth between about 100l. and 150l.; I never valued them—I went there two or three times—I cannot tell whether there was a lobby as you went in, or whether there were looking glasses on both sides of the shop.

JOHN RYLE . I am chief clerk of the Loss Department in the North British and Mercantile Insurance Company—I produce a proposal for an insurance on the stock, fittings, and furniture, and 100l. guarantee for six months' rent under date of 9th August, signed Leon Serne—it was accompanied by this letter: "Sir, Herewith I beg to hand you a proposal of insurance on my house, stock, &c. Please allow your surveyor to attend at his earliest convenience and oblige yours, LEON SERNE"—100l. was to be insured for the payment of the half year's rent, and 100l. on the household goods, linen, wearing apparel, &c, 500l. on the fixtures,

fittings, and utensils on trade—we entertained the proposal, and notified the same by letter to the prisoner. (Inspector Conquest proved service on the prisoner of notice to produce documents). On 1st September a premium of 1l. 15s. 3d. was paid at the office and a receipt given under that date; this is the receipt—the policy was not issued till after the fire—under date of 1st October this claim (produced) was forwarded to the Company by their assessor; it was accompanied by a letter signed McArthur and Company—the agreed amount of claim was 524l. 14s. 6d.—that has reference to things alleged to have been destroyed in all the rooms of the house, shop, ladies' room, first floor back, office, second floor front, back, third floor front, second back room—there is a claim for about 5,000 transparencies for capuala, advertisement, 40l.—capuala is a horse ointment which Serne prepared and sold, about 8,000 capuala labels. 8l., about 3,000 printed forms of directions for the use of capuala, 1l. 16s.—there is also a claim for 1,200 tins of capuala made up ready for sale, cost price, 60l., prepared for Messrs. Newman and Houston, of Commercial Road, East—there is no claim with regard to the contents of the third floor front room—the claim was accompanied by this document: "October 1. I, Leon Serne, declare that about half-past one a fire occurred. I am quite ignorant how such fire was occasioned. I further declare that the property enumerated on the detailed list annexed was destroyed or damaged by the said fire to the extent specified," and on the other side the claim is made for 524l. 14s. 6l.

Cross-examined by MR. GEOGHEGAN. This property was surveyed by Mr. Lance; he is a clerk in the Surveyor's office, and assistant surveyor—it was after we received his report that the proposal was accepted—the first two items in the claim are Heath's account, 42l., and Ashby 33l.—the fifth item is "stock in trade, 44l.," that is under the head of "shop and ladies' room," there is an item on the second floor back of "household goods continued" of 34l.

EDWARD GEORGE JARVIS . I am a surveyor and estate agent, of 29, Great Winchester Street, City—about 7th September I received this letter. (This wax from Serne requesting the particulars of the house, 51, New Oxford Street, which the witness had to let.) In consequence of that letter I called at 274, Strand, the following morning, 8th September—I did not see Serne then—on 9th September I received this post-card: "51, New Oxford Street,—Mr. L. Serne will be at the above premises at 9.30 to-morrow, Saturday morning, to view." I kept that appointment, and there met Serne; he made a view of the premises; he went all over them with me; he had already had the terms, they were recapitulated then—they were 170l. per annum, with a premium of 400l. for a lease of seven years, and 40l. for trade fixtures therein, and 190l. per annum without the premium—he said he proposed to carry on the business of a hairdresser and the sale of some patent medicine—he did not say when he should want the premises.

Cross-examined by MR. GEOGHEGAN. The shop had been vacant from September the previous year; it is not let at present—a great number of. persons come and make inquiries and do not take it.

WILLIAM EUSTACE CRAY . I live at Holm Lee, D'Israeli Road, Ealing—I am chief clerk of the Prudential Insurance Company, Holborn Bars—on 13th December, 1886, a proposal was made to the Company, which I produce—that proposal was entertained, it was not signed by Serne, it

was a proposal on the life of the elder boy for 9l.; a policy was issued on that—at the same time there was a proposal with reference to the deceased boy, Leo Serne under ten, for 5l., also for 4l. 14s. on his own life, 5l. 1s. on his wife's life, 9l. 6s. on the life of the elder girl Anna, and 10l. on the life of Kate; they were all received on the same day—all those proposals were entertained by the office, and in due course policies were issued on 27th September last year—under date of 19th September, 1887, I received this claim signed Leo Serne on behalf of Sejac, and witnessed by J. Goldfinch—on the same date I received this claim for 5l. in regard to Leo Serne that has not been paid.

Cross-examined by MR. GEOGHEGAN. Before we pay a claim an officer attached to the Company investigates the death—in this case Mr. Sullivan, the assistant superintendent, examined into the death and granted the two certificates on the claim—the elder boy Sejac might have been insured for twice the amount, and it would not prevent an insurance in any other office.

Re-examined. The highest amount which under the rules of our office we insure an infantile life for is 5l., at 1d. a week.

FREDERICK CHARLES SMITH (Re-examined). I am now living at 1, Albion Place, Blackfriars, and am an accountant by profession—for some months in this year I was engaged in keeping the prisoner's books and accounts, and writing letters for him in his business in the Strand—my employment commenced about July and lasted down to the fire—I was well acquainted with the downstairs part of the premises—as you enter you went into the shop—it was used as a barber's shop—there was a room at the back, divided by a partition from that which was called the ladies' room; it was used by ladies if they came to the premises—there was no fireplace in the shop, there was one in the ladies' room at the back—the partition between the two rooms was wood and glass—in the left hand corner of the front shop there was a staircase leading upstairs—the shop ceiling was carried up to the second floor, which left but one room on the first floor, and that was situate at the back—that room was used as an office; it was not rented by me, but I did the business there for which the prisoner engaged me—the second floor was composed of a kitchen at the back and a sitting room in front—I was not very well acquainted with the top of the premises, the sitting room was the only room I have been in; perhaps I had been in that a week before the fire, I think it was the Saturday previous, there was then a bed and bedding in it—I cannot tell from my own knowledge where the different members of the family slept—I have seen some of these transparencies in the office—they were kept on the floor in the office for some time in paper boxes or card board boxes, tied round with string, I believe, 25 in a box, and were divided by thin pieces of paper—I think I saw them there about a month before the fire—I can only give an approximate time—there was a fireplace in the office—the prisoner said the office was too warm for them, and he should remove them into the cellar—he said that perhaps a week before they wore removed—I was not present when they were removed; I never saw them afterwards, they were then in the boxes—I was in the house on the night of 17th September from about five in the afternoon until a quarter to ten, when I left, but I afterwards returned at 20 minutes to 12; I stayed five minutes in the shop, and then left at a quarter to 12—at that time I saw Mrs. Serne, the prisoner Serne, and Goldfinch, and I think the eldest

daughter Annie; she was about 15, Kate was about 12—Annie assisted in the barber's business—I knew the eldest boy and had opportunity of observing him, he was of weak intellect decidedly—I saw Serne three or four days after the lire; he asked me to make his claim against the Insurance Company; I told him he had better to his solicitor—I have only known Goldfinch since July as working for Serne—he came a few days after me—he and the Semes always seemed on very friendly terms—I kept a press copy book, into which I took off the letters written by me at the prisoner's request—this is it (produced)—about three weeks before the fire there was a sheriff's man in possession—to the best of my belief the signature to this letter of 19th December, 1885, is the prisoner's writing.

Cross-examined by MR. GEOGHEGAN. As you came into the shop from the Strand you went into a kind of lobby, a square doorway boarded up—I could not say whether a person looking through the window could not see the street door on account of that boarding—as you go in the door is on the left, and the shop is on the left; on the right is a boarding, and straight in front of you a glass written on; it is partly glass and partly wood—on the right is a wooden partition, it is really part of the partition between the two shops, the next door shop and 274; it is a kind of square entry—this rough sketch (produced) correctly represents it—there is no partition or anything between the door opening into the shop and the street door—the door opens inside the lobby; if the door was closed a person in the street could not see the street door—the door opens back into the lobby, you pull it to get into the shop—I remember Serne's brother coming over from Holland on a visit to him; a bed was put in the sitting-room while he was there—I Was not acquainted with their domestic life—I have seen Serns with his children—as far as I could see I considered him a kind and affectionate father, fond of his children, and they fond of him—Serne was very sanguine about this capuala, he thought if it was properly advertised it would become a valuable property—a number of newspapers used to be sent to the house containing copies of the advertisements—I do not know where the cellar was, I believe the entrance to it was under the front window, inside the shop—there was a cupboard under the staircase, inside which odds and ends were stowed—I recollect Serne mentioning about the shop in Oxford Street—I believe the reason why he wanted that was because their was a blank wall at the end, where he could advertise for Partington—he had such a place at 274, for which he got 60l. a year—Isaac was certainly not so bright as other persons of his age.

Cross-examined by MR. FULTON. I do not know whether a hairdresser's assistant has to bring with him the tools of his trade—I do not know whether Goldfinch had the tools of his trade with him or not.

Re-examined. I never knew till after the fire that the transparencies were put in the cupboard in the back room—the cupboard was under the staircase in the back room, not in a cellar—the fireplace was close to that cupboard—the transparencies were removed to the cellar because the office was too warm, that was what I understood—I knew of some of the capuala being sold, an agent in Norwich took six dozen—the shop door was usually open—I have never looked in from the street through the shop door when there has been a strong light inside—I cannot toll to what extent a person looking in from the shop door could see a light

inside—I say that Isaac was of weak intellect; not an idiot, but there was something about him more or less of an idiotic character—he went to school for a short time for about two months; I think he went in July.

GEORGE JAMES NEWMAN . I am a member of the firm of Newman and Houseton, of Ward's Wharf, Commercial Road, Blackfriars—about Dec., 1885, Serne asked our firm to take some tins of capuala for sale; there was no specified number—I can't say the exact quantity that came, but I think about a couple of gross, 12 dozen being a gross—the value was supposed to be 2l. 6d. a tin; he was to supply us at 1l.—we tried to sell them—we advanced him about 15l.—we were not able to sell any, except a very few tins, not any quantity—they were returned to him—we received this letter from him: "19th Dec, 1885. Gentlemen,—As you have taken a further stock of capuala before having started any advertisement, should you not sell these, I hereby agree to take it all back and refund the amount already advanced, and pay you the same by weekly instalments of 10l. "—he did not repay it; I don't think he paid any; he may possibly have paid one weekly instalment, or perhaps two—he said he was unable to pay, that he had not the money—we returned the things to him—we never ordered any more.

Cross-examined by MR. GEOGHEGAN. I don't know that we undertook to advertise the capuala—we were to have it at a certain price, and advertise it ourselves—I did not agree that he was to supply us with 1,000, tins; the agreement was with the firm—I saw Serne personally, and personally agreed with him about it.

JOHN CONQUEST (recalled). On the night of 12th October, about 11, I was in the Strand—I there saw Goldfinch—I said to him "l am a police officer; I shall arrest you for being concerned with Leon Serne in setting fire to his house, 274, Strand, and causing the death of his two little boys"—he said "Yes, all right"—I took him to the station at Bow Street; he was detained, and I went back to 279, Strand, with P. C. Collins—I there saw Serne—I said to him exactly what I had said to Goldfinch—he replied "Thank you, sir, thank you, sir"—I took him to Bow Street Station—he and Goldfinch were there together charged with the offence I had already stated to them—Seme made no answer—Goldfinch said "I spoke the truth at the inquest; I can't say any more."

Cross-examined by MR. GEOGBEGAN. I was present at the examinations at the police-court; they were very lengthy examinations, beginning at two and ran sometimes to half-past five—at the close of the case for the prosecution the Magistrate said he had made up his mind to send the case for trial—after that the prisoner's counsel said under those circumstances any witnesses they had to call they would call at the trial—I know Mr. and Mrs. Burton—I have seen Mrs. Burton, not Mr.—I subpoenaed Mrs. Burton—she was examined before the Coroner—she was not called before the Magistrate—the distance from the window from which the Semes were rescued was within 10 or 12 feet of the nearest window—I saw Mrs. Bishop afterwards and took her statement about the matter—I submitted her statement with others, and I was directed to subpcona her—I called on Mrs. Lazarus at the second-hand boot shop in Holywell Street—her house is almost immediately behind the fire, about the same distance at Mrs. Stanley's house—I saw Mr. Callagan and his daughter.

By the COURT. I questioned the different police officers as to what they

had seen—there were a number of police officers there, all that I found had been there—I say it is quite correct that Ross and Blackburn and Johnson did not report to me till 28th October; it was not my duty as a detective inspector to take those reports; that was the duty of the uniform department—I took their statements when I thought they would be likely to be called, in accordance with those of the other witnesses—it was not their duty to speak of me of what they saw—I was making a general inquiry, it may be they thought that I should see them later on.

By MR. GEOGHEGAN. They came to my station the day after the third examination, on the 28th, I ordered them to come, and then they made statements to me.

MR. FULTON, on behalf of Goldfinch, submitted that on this evidence there was no case to go to the Jury. MR. POLAND contended that the evidence taken as a whole made out a case for the Jury. MR. JUSTICE STEPHEN considered that it was a matter entirely for the Jury. MR. GEOGHEGAN proposing to call witnesses, MR. FULTON desired the decision of the Court as to the order in which Counsel should address the Jury. MR. JUSTICE STEPHEN (after referring to the case of Reg. v. Trevelli and others, Central Criminal Court Sessions Paper, Vol. XCVI., page 110, and Cox, Criminal Cases, ruled that the prosecution was entitled to a general reply upon the whole case. MR. FULTON then addressed the Jury for Goldfinch, and MR. GEOGHBGAN called the following witnesses on behalf of Serne

FRANCES BURTON . I live at 278, Strand, and am the wife of George Burton, who is in the employ of the Morning Post and also the St. James's Gazette—I was subpoenaed by the prosecution to attend at Bow Street as a witness, but was not called—I occupy the third floor at 278, Strand, and my front room looks out into the Strand and my back window into Holywell Street—the back window is about two and a half yards from where the Sernes were rescued—I remember the night of the 17th and the early morning of 18th September—on that night I went to bed about 11.30 my husband followed me shortly afterwards—about one or half-past I was aroused from my sleep by cries of "Help, help, my boys," I opened my window and looked out and saw Mr. and Mrs. Serne and the two daughters standing on the gutter facing my window—on that I aroused my husband, and while he was getting up I returned to the window—he then came to the window and said something to me, and then put his hat and coat and boots on, and went downstairs, but before he went down he told roe to tell them not to jump as he was going to bring a ladder, which was hanging in the passage—as he was going downstairs he slipped down; I could not tell how many stairs he fell down—he seemed to stumble because he had not done his boots up, and I could hear him falling down the stairs making a stumbling noise—when he had left I went back and opened the window again, but in consequence of the smoke being so thick I had to close it, and then I tore down my blind—when I closed the window I do not know whether it was Mr. or Mrs. Serne said "Don't"—I can't say whether they said it once or twice—Serne went several times to the window of their premises that looks out on to the gutter, every time Mrs. Serne called out for her boys, the window was then very thick with smoke—I then saw the reflection of a policeman's bull's eye in No. 277, and saw the prisoner break two top panes of glass—I could not say whether it was with his fist or feet—the policeman then came and told me to go out—Serne broke the panes of

glass in the window of the side of the house next door to me, to draw the attention of the police—the gutter slanted where they stood, and the window being lower than they were he was able to reach the top of the window and break the top panes—I see on this photograph the edge of the gutter upon which the Sernes stood; that is the window that Serne broke, but my window is not shown there; it is in this blank wall.

Cross-examined. I heard no cries before I opened the window, but afterwards I heard cries of "Help, help, my boys" coming from Mrs. Serne, and the children were calling as well; they were all halloaing together for help—it appeared to he a woman's voice, not a man's voice—I think they saw me looking out—that was all I heard—I called to them not to jump, they were going to jump—my husband got up directly—he was used to getting up at that time—he made a stumbling noise down our stairs as he went down—I could not tell bow far he had gone down the stairs when I heard the stumbling—I was at the window, I saw the Sernes actually rescued by the police into the adjoining house, about five minutes after the glass was broken—I could not say who it was said "Don't" when I closed my window—I could not say bow long it was from the time I got out of bed to the time I shut the window, such a lot happened in such a short time—I dare say it was a quarter of an hour from the time I heard the woman crying "Help, help, my boys" to the people being rescued by the police off the gutter; I cannot speak with any confidence as to how long it was—when I heard the woman's voice I saw Serne try and enter at the window, and then he put his hand like that—the smoke was then coming out of the window very thick—that it the only window that opened on to the gutter—I never left my window until they left the gutter.

Re-examined. My window is above the level of the gutter—Mrs. Serne afterwards said to me that it was like stabbing her with a knife when I shut my window.

GEORGE BURTON . I am husband of the last witness, and am a driver in the employment of the St. James Gazette—I live at 278, Strand, on the third floor—I remember this night, 17th September—I went to bed about three minutes to 12, and was awakened by my wife, and when I opened my eyes I saw her at the window, and heard cries of "Help, help, my boys"—I jumped out of bed and opened the window, and saw a group of people in the gutter—I told my wife to stop there while I got a ladder, and I put on my boots, trousers, and coat, and rushed out of the room, and going down I slipped down the first flight of stairs—when I got into the passage I found the street door had been burst open—I made several gropes in the passage for the ladder, which I had seen there before, and found it was not there, that it had gone—when I got outside the door I saw a woman screaming, and I said to her "Shut up, will you?" because my wife was upstairs with a child, and I did not want to alarm her—just as I got outside, the fire-escape got to the house, and I saw somebody jump from the top window on to the escape.

Cross-examined, I tumbled three-parts downstairs; my legs slipped, and I fell on my back on the stairs, but I was up again in a minute; I only grazed my leg—I was about a quarter of the way down the stairs when I slipped—there are three flights of stairs to our house, and I slipped down 10 or 12 steps.

MAY CARRAGAN . I live at 164, Portobello Road, Notting Hill—in September last I was living at 49, Holywell Street, with my father, who is a hatter there—I am schoolmistress of the Roman Catholic Middle School in Gate Street, Lincoln's Inn Fields—on this night I was sleeping in the back room of 49, Holywell Street, which is almost opposite to the window where the Sernes were rescued—I did not go to bed till after 12 o'clock, and I first heard screaming about 20 minutes past I—I then threw up my window and looked out, but could see nothing but smoke first—the screams continued—I then heard the words "My boys, my boys, oh, my God, my boys"—I then went into the next room and called my father, and then went upstairs to my sister—my father then came into the room, but I could see no persons—I then went upstairs to the third floor—at first I could see no persons, but afterwards I distinguished some figures standing on the ledge in the corner of the roof; I could not distinguish who they were; I could see one was a woman, and she was screaming, and my father called out to her "Hold your noise, there is help coming"—he called that out two or three times—the smoke was very dense at first, and then it cleared away—I then heard a policeman's voice, and Mrs. Serne came to our house and remained until after 4 o'clock.

Cross-examined. I heard a man's voice call out "Where are yon?"—that was after the voice said "There is help coming"—I think it must have been seven or eight minutes from the time I heard the voice say "My boys, my boys," to the voice saying "Where are you?"—I had time to partly dress—the smoke was very dense when I first looked out;—I have nothing to fix the time, but I looked at my sister's watch when I called her—the watch was then 20 minutes past 1, but I think it was slow; I cannot tell how much.

Re-examined. I looked at the watch almost immediately after I had heard the first scream.

EMILY COOPER . I live at 272. Strand—on this night, the 17th September, I was sleeping in the first floor back room—I had gone to bed about 12 o'clock—I was awakened by my sister, and then heard cries of "Help"—I could not say what time I was awoke—I should think about a quarter past I—I could not say exactly, as I did not look at the clock—I then got my sister out, and we left soon after that—the only cries I heard were "Help."

Cross-examined. It was about that time; I could not say nearer than that—I heard several voices cry "Help," a man's voice, and a woman's, and a child's, but nothing else.

ADA COOPER . I am the sister of the last witness—we were sleeping together on the morning of the fire—I had gone to bed at 12 o'clock—I was ill at the time with rheumatic fever—I did not fall asleep—about I o'clock I heard cries of "Help"—I could not tell whether it was a man's or woman's voice calling—they were the only cries I heard.

ANNA SERNE . I am the daughter of the prisoner—I am 15 years old—I remember the night of the fire—I was up with my mother till about 20 minutes past 12, and then she and I went to bed together on the third floor—that floor is divided into two rooms by a wooden partition, and in one of these partitions there is a window looking out on to the leads of 277—my two brothers and sister slept in the room to the left of the partition—this partition divides the room sideways—only one room looks out

into the Strand—the room where my brothers and sister slept looked out into the yard; not on to the gutter—the room where my mother and I slept looked on to the gutter—before this 18th September I had been sleeping downstairs, but the night before the fire I slept upstairs—I remember my uncle John coming from Holland—when he came he slept with my brothers, and I slept in the front room—I slept upstairs because it was getting rather cold, and my father took the blankets upstairs and put them on his own bed, and said I was to sleep there—on the night of the fire I and my father and mother slept in the same bed—the gas was not turned right out, there was a small light left—during the night I was awakened by my mother, but I don't know how—she got up and said something in Dutch, and I got up and said "What is it?"—there was smoke in the room—on that my father got out of bed, and pulled us both out of bed, and then went into the next room, the room which is divided by the partition—I did not hear him speaking in the next room, and I did not go in there—my father went alone into the room, and my mother went to the door—she did not go into the next room—she stayed in the room where I was—I then heard my father come back from the next room into the room where I was—I could not see him, because it was so dark and full of smoke—he was not alone, and I heard one of my brothers come back with him, and stand in front of me—I was turning round when he came in—the window that looks out on the leads opens like a door—that window was in the room where we slept—the next thing I remembered was my papa smashed one pane of glass, and lifted my mother out and then my sister and me and my brother—he then put his head out of the window, and looked back and called for the boys—the smoke was then coming out of the window very bad—he put his head out of the window and called for the boys, and then he got out himself, and said in Dutch, "I can no more"—he seemed to be going to drop down then—alter that he went back to the window three or four times, and called for the boys—he said in Dutch, "Leo, Sejak, where are you?"—he could not get into the window; the smoke prevented him—while he was doing that my mother was on the leads crying for the boys—she spoke the words, "Fire, fire, help, my boys," in English, and in Dutch, "Oh, my boys"—I called out "Fire, moeder"—after that we were on the roof about five minutes—I then saw a light, but could not see the man because it was so full of smoke—I did not see the dress of a fireman, only like buttons or something shining—he asked my papa something, and my papa said to him, "They are in there"—I then lost sight of the fireman, and I didn't see him again—when my father said "They are in there" the man disappeared, and I said in Dutch "The boys are saved," because I fancied that he went into the room as he disappeared all at once—at this time we were all standing at the edge of the gutter, and I then saw a light shining through the window at the end of the gutter, and I said "Papa, here is help"—he kicked the window, and smashed a pane of glass—a policeman then called out, "Where are you," and he also said "Mind the glass"—we were then taken to Mr. Glennies in the Strand, and my father was very ill and upset after that—I heard no quarrel whatever between my father and mother on that night—I was awake when my father came to bed—my mother slept in the middle between me and my father—my father has always been a very kind and affectionate parent.

Cross-examined. Before my uncle came over from Holland I and my sister always slept in the front room on the second floor—I had been sleeping in the other bed for about a month before the fire, and the night of the fire was the second night I had slept downstairs on Friday night, stairs on the night before the fire—I slept downstairs on Friday night, floor room—my two brothers always slept upstairs in one bed, and when my sister came upstairs she slept in the same bed with them—you have to go out into the passage to get into the adjoining room—I had not got into bed when my father came to bed—I went up to bed about 20 minutes past 12, but I had not got into bed when my father came up, I had undressed—my mother went to bed when I did—she was putting on her nightdress when pa came in—he came up about 10 minutes after we had come up, and then he undressed and went to bed—my brothers and sister had been in bed a long time—my mother first called my attention to the fire, she woke me from my sleep and the room was then full of smoke—my father at once went into the room where my brothers and sister were, and then he came and gave my sister over to my mother as she stood at the door; he carried her half way you may say, lifted her up by the arms—he then went into the room immediately and returned bringing my two brothers with him—he carried them in—I found one of my brothers standing by me, and he brought the other one in with him, then we all six were in this little room—the window opens like a door, on hinges, there is no sash to it—only half of window space is clear, the other side is fastened securely, and has never been opened—it opens inwards, and you bolt one half against the other—my father opened half of the window—the height of the window from the floor I should imagine is about 6 or 8 feet—it is above my head when I stand on the floor—I could not look out of the window standing on the floor—the top of the window reached to the ceiling—there was a box under the window, I could look out of the window when I stood on that—my mother got out of the window first, my father pushed her up, then my sister was pushed up, then I went next, and then my father came out—my brothers were in the room at that time standing close to me—about five or six seconds after I was pushed up my father came on to the gutter where I was standing—I did not go in again after that—the door of the little room downstairs—I saw a flame after I got out on to the roof, that was the first one I saw, but when we were in the room the smoke was very hot—nobody shut the door to keep it out—my pa came in with the two boys and left the door open, he never thought of it any more—I heard it sound against the bedstead—I did not hear it shut again—my eldest brother was a little behind in his intellect—when I came upstairs to bed I left my father and Goldfinch chatting together in the ladies' room as we called it, at the back of the shop—on Saturdays we always go to bed at half-past 12—I helped in the shop sometimes cutting hair, but not always—we close at half-past 10 on other days—I afterwards heard Goldfinch go into his own room, and I and my mother called out "Good-night" to him—the door leading into Goldfinch's room and the door leading into my brother's room are not more than a foot or two apart, they open on to the landing—my father and mother had had no quarrelling or words—the

first cry for help was when we got out on to the gutter—I heard no noise of any one falling before I got out on to the gutter, and no cries of murder, and no cries "For God's sake hold your noise," or "your row"—there were no words of that kind—we had no paraffin in the house for lamps—there was no paraffin on the second floor—I am quite sure I did not tell the Magistrate or the Coroner that there was paraffin used on the second floor—the Coroner asked if there was any paraffin in the house, I said "No;" he then said "Lamps or anything?" and I said "No"—the cans contained lime-juice water and oil.

Re-examined. I did not look at watch or clock when I went to bed—I had slept with my mother before my uncle came from Holland—the bed downstairs was bought for my uncle.

KATE SERNE . I am 13 next birthday; I used to sleep with my brothers at 274, Strand—I know the room at the top of the house where there is a wooden partition—on the night of the fire I slept with my two brothers—I went to bed at 9 o'clock; we all went to bed together; I fell asleep—some time afterwards I was awoke by my papa; he pulled me out of bed, the room was dark; he gave me to my mamma at the door, she took me into the next room, where she slept; my father went back to get my brothers; my mamma spoke to papa and asked him to help her get out of the window; she was holding me in her arms—I could not see my brothers because it was dark—I got out into the gutter outside the window; my papa lifted me up to the window, and mother took hold of my arm and pulled me; she had been pulled out before; she stood me up when I had got out; my papa came out after me—my sister came out alter mamma, before me—when papa came out on to the roof, the smoke was coming out as full as could be—when we were all four out in the gutter papa was shouting out "Leo, Leo, and Sejac!" and he was trying to get back to get them—I went as far down the gutter as I could—papa smashed the window, as soon as he saw somebody coming with a light, with his feet—we were then taken in to Mr. Glennie's.

Cross-examined. The night before the fire I had been sleeping with my brothers—I had been sleeping downstairs when my uncle came—I slept about a month downstairs with my sister Annie—the first time I slept upstairs was three nights before the fire—I slept with my brothers on the Friday night and on the Thursday night—on Wednesday night I slept downstairs—I am quite sure that I slept upstairs on Thursday, Friday, and Saturday—on the Thursday night my sister did not like sleeping with mamma and she went downstairs, and next night mamma said she could not spare the blankets, and she came up again—she slept downstairs by herself on the Friday night, and I slept upstairs—my papa pulled me out of bed on the night of the fire; he did not wake me, he took me to his bedroom and gave me into mamma's arms, he then went back to fetch my brothers, they had been left in bed—I could not tell whether he got them, he brought thorn into his own room; I did not see them, I know they were there, because I heard them fall down, I heard them fall—they fell on the ground because papa could not hold them in his arms when he helped mamma out—I could tell they were in the room—it was a very small room; I could not touch them, mamma had hold of me, I heard them fall, I don't know whether one or both fell—I could not tell whether anybody picked them up—I could not see

my mother helped out of the window, but I heard her speak, and I suppose papa lifted her out—I know the box that was against the window—it is not so tall as that box, it was taller than that (describing); if I stood on the box I could look out of the window—I did not tell the Coroner that the night before the fire I slept with my sister downstairs, I am sure I did not tell him that; I did not tell him anything, only that when my uncle went away I slept for a mouth upstairs—I did not tell him that my father did not bring my little brothers out of their room, I am sure of that; they got into the little room, because my papa went to fetch them.

Re-examined. By "the little room" I mean the room in which the window was that we got through; that was the room into which my brothers were brought—my mamma was holding me in her arms, and she called out to papa to help me and her through the window; then I heard something fall, I thought it was my brothers—before papa could open the window he had to let whatever he had fall—when I was examined before the Coroner I fainted; I had had nothing to eat in the morning; I had been to school—I was not asked many questions before I fainted.

Three witnesses deposed to Goldfinch's good character.

NOT GUILTY . There was another indictment against the prisoners for arson, which was postponed to the next Sessions.

NEW COURT.—Tuesday, December 13th, 1887.

Before Mr. Recorder.

Reference Number: t18871212-115

115. FELICIE VINCENT(31) , Stealing a quantity of wearing apparel and other articles, the goods of Humphrey Napier Stuart, her master.

MR. GRAIN Prosecuted; MR. BESLEY Defended.

FEODROWNA PHILLIPPA STURT . I am the wife of the Hon. Napier Sturt, of 6, Upper Grosvenor Street—the prisoner was in my service from December, 1886, to 27th June, 1887—she gave me notice to leave, and directly alter she left I missed a number of things—on 28th November I wan taken to Gerald Road Police-station, and shown all these articles—(produced)—they are all mine—the prisoner had no authority to take them, nor had I given her any of them; many of them are marked with my name.

Cross-examined. She came into my service with a recommendation from a lady named Burt—I did not go abroad, the service was in London and the country—I was visiting at different houses in the country from week to week—packing would have to be done six or seven times—she went to Lady Sebright direct from me—I had nothing to do with undertaking this prosecution, I am acting at the request of Lady Sebright's solicitor—I missed the things directly she left, and I wrote to Lady Sebright and told her that I suspected the prisoner—Lady Sebright prosecuted her and I joined in the prosecution—several articles were taken from a box in New Cavendish Street; I have a list of them—the flowers are not old bonnet flowers—here are flowers and feathers as well—these three pairs of gloves are new—I am quite sure they are mine—there is no mark on them, but I missed a lot—I had been travel ling about from house to house

and carried them with me—it is not a fact that I only purchased one pair while she was in my service—they are my size, and I missed them—I do not say that I only can wear that size—she was not with me at Bath—she did not buy this brown cloth herself for a dress; I had it a year before she entered my service, I bought it of a hawker at my house in London—I had three shawls, and this is one which my mother gave me; it is ice wool, it is worth 4s. or 5s.—I know it by the peculiar edging—they are not made by thousands—I do not know that this nightdress and three handkerchiefs came from the wash, and were put with the prisoner's things by mistake, and I do not believe it—this maroon and silk do not belong to her, they belong to my gown, which was picked to pieces; these are the marks, they match a gown I have got, and are worth about a guinea a yard—there is 1 1/2 yards here—there are no marks on these ribbons, but I know them; this one came oft a white muslin evening gown which has gone—I do not allow lady's maids to have worn-out gowns, I give them to understand that when I take them; my mother never allowed it and I inherited that—these stockings are not new, but I take a very large size, and that is how I know them—I never sell my old clothes, so I do not acquire a knowledge of their value—this soap is what we always use in the house—the prisoner could buy such if she chose, but I don't believe she did—some of this lace was on a white dress, and some not—there is no mark on these two pieces of muslin—this jet necklace could not be bought under 12s.; there is no mark on it, or on anything in this list except my handkerchiefs, which are marked with my name, and the night dresses—this brown silk dress, white silk petticoat, and blue serge dress and jacket were not bought by the prisoner of a lady's maid in South Molton Street before she entered my service; they were in my trousseau, and when I asked for them she made some excuse; I was in mourning, and had not seen them for two or three months before the summer of last year—she said that she had not had time to look through my clothes, and she did not know they were there—I had not had an inventory of my linen for some time—my previous lady's maid was named Mitchell, not Marie—I had Marie when I was married, and she left to be married—I do not know of her living in South Molton Street afterwards—I never saw her afterwards—there is no mark on these two boxes of violet powder, but I buy them by the half-dozen at Roberts's in Old Bond Street—they do not live upon my custom only—my handkerchiefs are all marked "Feo."; some of them are old ones—I did not give the prisoner these two bodices—I have made her presents, but cannot enumerate them all—I valued these articles at 40l. before the Magistrate; that was a mere guess, but this lace is worth 2 guineas a yard—I did not ask the prisoner to stay with me when her time was up; I did ask her to stay one day because I was going to a ball, and she replied that she bad made the engagement with Mrs. Sebright and was bound to fulfil it—I did not say to her on leaving "Mrs. Sebright is not a person whose reputation is such that I will give you a character if you stay there longer than a month"—I never give a character a second time—I knew nothing about Mrs. Sebright, nor of the cause of quarrel; I had no acquaintanceship with Mrs. Sebright, but I have now—the only time I saw her was when I wrote and asked her to come and see me after the prisoner had gone into her service—I

gave the prisoner a muff, I have not claimed that, and I gave her some old bonnets and hats.

Re-examined. I missed all these articles after she left when I searched, after receiving certain communications—I say without hesitation that they are all mine.

JOHN SCOTT (Detective Sergeant) On 20th November I went to Mrs. Wolton's, 14, Cadogan Place, who gave me some articles which have nothing to do with this case—on 21st November I went to St. Austell in Cornwall, and found the prisoner in custody at the police-station there—I had previously communicated with the local police—I read the warrant to her, and received some boxes from Inspector Newcombe, who said in her presence that they were her boxes, and she had brought them from Hilligan, where she was in service—I brought her to London—she was searched, and the female searcher gave me some keys found on her, with one of which I opened the only box which was locked, and made a thorough search of all the boxes—on 25th November she was brought before a Magistrate on Mrs. Sebright's charge, and on that day I went to Mrs. Tremaine's London house, 18, New Cavendish Street, and saw a number of boxes in a bedroom, some locked and some nailed down—they are still there—I opened them with the keys found on the prisoner, and Mrs. Sebright, who accompanied me, and Lady Sturt identified articles found in them.

Cross-examined. Hilligan in Cornwall is one of Mrs. Tremaine's country residences—the prisoner allowed me to look in her boxes, and gave me every facility—sue did not say that a nightdress of Lady Start's had been sent to the wash and got with her things—the person who coinmenced proceedings against her was Mrs. Sebright.

THOMAS DYSON (Detective Officer) On 28th November I met Lady Sturt by appointment at Cottage Road Police Station, and some of the articles produced were found in the prisoner's boxes there.

GUILTY . Recommended to mercy by the Jury. There were other indictments against her for robberies at Mrs. Tremaine's and Mrs. Sebright's.— Fifteen Months' Hard Labour.

Reference Number: t18871212-116

116. SAMUEL HILL(47) , Feloniously forging and uttering in September, 1885, an order for the payment of 2l. 11s., with intent to defraud.

MESSRS. MEAD and PARTRIDGE Prosecuted; MR. BEBLEY Defended.

ROBERT BLACKMORE . I am a builder, of 16, Argyll Road, Upper Edmonton—I have known the prisoner some years and have had betting transactions with him—in September, 1885, he had to pay me 2l. 11s. for a debt he had made by betting—I met him as we went to Camden Station, and he said "I have seen the party who has to pay the money, and he has not got a cheque with him; he banks at the same bank as you do, and if you can lend me a blank cheque of yours I can get the money"—I gave him this cheque form blank on the London Trading Bank, Limited, and he went into the waiting room and returned, and gave me the cheque filled up for 2l. 11s. 8d., as it is now—I gave him 9s. for his commission, and endorsed it and paid it to Walter Fox, who I owed some money to, and he gave me 19s. change—it was afterwards returned to me marked "No account"—I do not know the name of Hammond.

Cross-examined. I did not notice that there is no year on the cheque—I

was tried in this Court on 5th May, 1886, for forging and uttering this very cheque (See Vol. CIV., p. 31), and it does not seem that my Counsel noticed that it was not dated—I was sentenced to nine months' hard labour—there was another indictment against me for a cheque for 4l. 17s. 6d. signed by Mr. Cummings, a builder—I believed I had funds at the bank when I tore this cheque out of my book—Mr. Hazlewood wanted me to pay 10l. to give up Cummings' cheque of May, 1885. and while that was pending I went away from London on 8th October, 1885, and went to a situation—proceedings were nut then pending against me for forging and uttering these two cheques—I did not know that the charge was pending—it was arranged at the end of September that I should pay Hazlewood 10l., and he would give me back the cheque—after the cheque came back Hazlewood made a claim—I paid 10l., but was not in a position to pay more at that time—I left home on the 8th, leaving my address and my wife and family behind me—they knew where I was, and I wrote to Mr. Fox and promised to pay him when I took my first wages, but I never received my wages—I was taken at Winchester on 12th April, 1886—Hazlewood is a solicitor; he held Cumming's cheque—I last saw him at Edmonton County Court; he never got the 10l. out of me—if there was any fraud of Hazlewood it was a fraud of 4l. 17s. 6d. only—I was charged on that, but not tried; the indictment exists—I was tried on Fox's cheque—if I had paid the 10l. and got the cheque back they could not have taken proceedings—the warrant was in reference to the 4l. 17s. 6d. cheque, and not on Mr. Fox's cheque at all—I was taken to Edmonton—Mr. Hazlewood prosecuted me, and Mr. Wood defended me—Mr. Fox gave evidence, and I was sent for trial; I believe for both offences—I cannot say whether Mr. Fox acquiesced—I was brought out of the cell at Edmonton and saw Mr. Fox—he made a charge against me, but he did not charge me with uttering the 2l. 11s. cheque—the charge was read over to me and I said "I don't see how they can charge me with this offence; 10s. has been paid"—I believe it was my wife who paid the 10s.—through my not getting my salary I was unable to send the rest of the money—I was convicted of uttering a cheque taken from my own cheque book, and sentenced to nine months' imprisonment.

Re-examined. The first person defrauded was Palmer; he is dead—Hazlewood was clerk to the solicitor who prosecuted on Palmer's behalf—he asked me for 10l. for his costs, which he would take by instalments, and give me up the cheque.

WALTER FOX . I am a wirework manufacturer, of 373, Mile End Road—in September, 1885, Blackmore owed mo 1l. 12s., and on September 5th he called and tendered this cheque—I accepted it, and gave him 19s. change—I paid it into the London and South Western Bank, Bow, and received it back marked "No account"—I received 10s. on account of it from Mrs. Blackmore in October.

Cross-examined. I gave evidence against Blackmore on this very cheque—it was given to me on a Saturday, and on the Monday someone asked me not to pay it in, but it had then been paid in—he came and left a message for me; he did not see me—I wrote to Blackmore, and within two or three days he wrote or came—I saw him two or three times between then and his going into the country—he always said that directly he had money he would pay me—when he had gone I wrote to his wife asking his address, and she sent me 10s.—I had no reason to suppose he

would not pay me—my loss was only 9s., but I prosecuted him because I was requested to do so—I did not think it was a criminal proceeding—he told me that the cheque was given him in the way of trade; he did not tell me that the cheque came out of his own cheque-book—I merely saw Palmer as a witness; I did not know that Palmer brought him up from Winchester, or had negotiated for 10l. costs—I gave evidence at Edmonton at the request of Sergeant Maples, and on May 5th, 1886, I gave evidence here against Blackmore, upon which he got nine months.

WIGHTMAN COOPER . I am assistant manager of the London Trading Bank, 12, Coleman St.—there never was any account there in the name of Solomon or Sohm Hammond—this cheque was issued to Mr. Blackmore.

Cross-examined. If the name of a person was Solomon I should not cash a cheque signed Solom—the most juvenile clerk would not regard it as a valid cheque without a date—Mr. Blackmore had not at that time enough to pay a cheque for 2l. 12s.

ROBERT MURPHY (Detective Sergeant). I received a warrant for the prisoner's apprehension, but was not able to find him till 25th October this year.

Cross-examined. I inquired of his wife—I do not know that Mr. Hazlewood is here; he is managing clerk to Edward Smith and Co. now, but at this time he was in the firm of Curtis and Hilton—I saw him last Saturday, but not to speak to him—I believe there were some letters threatening proceedings it the cheque was not met—the cheque was dishonoured in May, 1885, and the warrant was not dated till October. 1885—I went to see Mr. Fox—I knew that he had lost exactly 9l., having had back 10s. from Mrs. Blackmore—that was the 9s. fraud on which Blackmore was tried—three sets of depositions were taken against him; the third was for a cheque on the Trading Bank for two guineas given to a butcher named Hornsby; I don't know in what name, or whether it was torn out of Blackmore's book—the butcher has had his money back—I know nothing more about Blackmore, but there were two other cheques in Southampton after he disappeared and before I arrested him, five cheques altogether—a complaint was made at Edmonton Sessions of having depositions taken in three cases—the other two matters were not the subject here of charges against Black more.

Re-examined. Charges were made against Blackmore at Southampton with regard to two other cheques—no solicitor prosecuted him at Edmonton, Hazlewood appeared there, and on something occurring the Magistrate directed me to bring the matter before the Public Prosecutor, who took charge of it—I saw the prisoner sign his statement at the police-court.

By MR. BESLEY. I mean to say that I was near enough to see him write this "S. Hill," that is all I saw—I think that was on 10th or 17th November, 1887—Hazlewood was not prosecuting at Edmonton, the police were prosecuting, but they had not got these two cheques—it was because I mistrusted Hazlewood with his offer of 10l. that I applied to the Public Prosecutor.

GEORGE SMITH INOLIS . I have compared this cheque with the signature "S. Hill" to the depositions; the "s s" are the same.

WILLIAM HENRY WEBB . The prisoner gave me this card "S. Hill"—he

called, and said "That is my name"—I did not exactly engage him as traveller, but he took away some umbrellas.

The RECORDER considered there was no case to go the Jury.

NOT GUILTY ,

Reference Number: t18871212-117

117. SAMUEL HILL was again indicted for Stealing three umbrellas, the property of William Henry Webb.

MESSRS. MEAD and PARTRIDGE Prosecuted; MR. BESLEY Defended.

WILLIAM HENRY WEBB . The prisoner told me he was traveller for Mr. Polson in hats and caps, and he might have an opportunity of selling umbrellas; I let him have three—he was to come back next day, but did not—he said he was going to show one them to Mr. Piggott, of Cheapside, and the lady's umbrella he was going to sell or give to a friend of his in a wholesale house, in the hope of inducing him to do business with him—I did not see him again till he was in custody.

Cross-examined. He would have a commission on them—I knew that one of them was not coming back, and the other two were entrusted to him—the value of the three was about 1l. to me—I am not prosecuting—I have not asked his landlady why he did not come back; I have had no chance.

NOT GUILTY .

Reference Number: t18871212-118

118. SAMUEL HILL was again indicted for obtaining 4l. 17s. 6d. from William Palmer with intent to defraud, on which no evidence was offered.

NOT GUILTY .

Reference Number: t18871212-119

119. GEORGE JAMES SHARP(38) PLEADED GUILTY to embezzling the sums of 127l. and 278l. received of the London and Westminster Bank, his masters.— Five Years' Penal Servitude . And

Reference Number: t18871212-120

120. JOHN HALL(30) to stealing two boxes and 150 cigars, the property of Henry Triggs, having been convicted at Guildhall in October, 1886, in the name of John Milson.— Nine Months' Hard Labour.

THIRD COURT.—Tuesday, December 13th, and Wednesday, 14th, 1887.

Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

Reference Number: t18871212-121

121. CHARLES MASON(20) and JOHN WILLIAMS (19), Robbery with violence on John Dollin, stealing his watch and chain and several trinkets, his property.

MR. GRAY Prosecuted: MR. PUROELL Defended Williams.

JOHN DOLLIN . I am a builder's surveyor, of 102, Theobalds Road—on 7th November, at 11 p.m., I was opening my front door—I received a blow from behind on the back of the head—I turned round and grappled with the man who struck me, I caught him by the coat; another man standing by him got hold of my watch and chain—I let go my right hand from the man that struck me, and caught the other man by the collar as well—I pulled the two men into the passage—I threw myself back, we all went over in the passage, I was underneath—two gas jets were alight in the passage—we struggled; I got up last, being underneath, and the men rushed out of the door—I never lost sight of them, but I jumped upon a man outside who struck me—I cried out "That is the other one," pointing to the man who took my chain—I was struck

several times by other persons—when I caught hold of Mason I was struck in the jaw, I think by a third person—I struggled for about fifty yards, and then got a blow at the back of the neck, and Mason wrenched himself away—a friend assisted me—I have been under the doctor's hands three weeks—in the struggle I lost a gold chain, an ace guinea, a half-sovereign, and an envelope—the bar of the chain was found in the passage—I suffered considerable pain in my head where I was struck—I communicated with the police the next morning—about a fortnight afterwards I picked out the prisoners at the station from about 16 men—Mason was the man I struggled with, I believe Williams to be the other man in the passage.

Cross-examined by Mason. I never knew you before the robbery—I did not look at you and walk away, I picked you out directly.

Cross-examined by MR. PUROBLL. The struggle occupied about five minutes—when sent for to identify the prisoners the men were young men of all sizes and complexions, and variously dressed and under 30—I looked at them all—I said I believed Williams was one, I do not swear positively to him.

WILLIAM PEAECE (Policeman E 48). I was in the police-station when Dollin came; he picked the prisoners out from about 10—he pointed to Mason and said "That was the man I had a struggle with in the passage"—the other one he could not positively swear to—I and Nicholls took them into custody, Nicholls having handed Mason over in to me.

ALFRED NIOHOLLS (Detective). I took Williams into custody.

Mason's Statement before the Magistrate. "I am innocent of every robbery there has been committed. It is all false.

WILLIAMS.— NOT GUILTY . MASON*†— GUILTY of robbery with violence. He also PLEADED GUILTY to a conviction of felony at Bow Street Police-court on 18th December, 1886.— Fifteen Months' Hard Labour and Twenty Strokes with the Cat.

Reference Number: t18871212-122

122. The said CHARLES MASON and JOHN WILLIAMS were again indicted for stealing a watch and chain, the goods of Benjamin Waugh from his person.

MR. GRAY Prosecuted; Mr. Purcell Defended Williams.

BENJAMIN WAUGH . I live at Southgate—I am a congregational minister—on Friday, 25th November, about 6.45 o'clock I was in Harper Street, Theobalds Road, at No. 7 (the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children)—I was on the doorstep or flat that corers the area leading to the footway—whilst I was ringing the bell my attention was called to persons behind—I turned round, and the middle one of three men asked me the way to Suliman Street—Williams was one; before I could answer the question he grabbed with both hands at my watch and chain, drew it out of its place and decamped with it—I followed him along Harpur Street into East Street or Ord Street, Great Ormond Street, down Conduit Street, Chapel Street, Emerald Street, which is entered by a court from Chapel Street, which I did not enter, but went for a policeman—when I found a constable he took me to enter the charge at Hunter Street, after which a detective was sent to the spot that I described—I was called to Hunter Street the following Thursday—I saw eight or 10 men similar in appearance to the prisoners and about the same age—I identified Williams at once as the man who had asked

me the way to Suliman Street—I was sure when I saw his face—I was doubly sure when I heard his voice—I pointed out Mason as one that I suspected to have been concerned—I would not swear to him—I had so little opportunity of seeing his face—when I was following Williams I was followed by two men—the value of the watch and chain is about 10l.—they cost 40l. about 10 years ago.

Cross-examined by Mason. I think I saw you at the robbery, but I do not swear positively.

Cross-examined by MR. PURCELL. The whole robbery only occupied about three seconds—the men were strangers—Williams was wearing bowler hat—I have no particular recollection of the other man or whether any one of them had hair on his face—I think Williams had his hat on then—I gave the police a fair description of the watch—I had its number telegraphed to me from the makers.

By the COURT. I said before the Magistrate "These three men came on the step close to me, and the voice of the one who asked the question was put so close to mine that he impressed himself on my face for ever"—I also said "I rang the bell, the three young men came on to the door-step close to me"—that is so.

ALFRED NICHOLLS (Detective). A complaint was made at the station—from the description given there I apprehended Williams on suspicion—he was placed among 10 other men, and Mr. Waugh identified him and said that to the best of his belief Mason was one of the other men—Pearce took Mason into custody.

Cross-examined by MR. PURCELL. I have not the description of Williams here—it was circulated in the "Police Information"—that would be the description given by some police officer, and put down by him to be circulated—it would be received by the officer on duty—I was present when Williams was identified—he wore a hat—the others wore hats—the other men came in from the street to oblige us—I did not sort them—some of them had whiskers—we are very glad to get anybody to come in.

WILLIAM PEARCE (Policeman E 48). I took Mason into custody—I took him to the station—I was present when he was picked out by the prosecutor—Mr. Waugh would not swear positively to him.

The Prisoners' Statements before the Magistrate. Mason says: "I was not There." Williams says: "I am innocent of the charge. I was at the Middlesex Music Hall at the time."

MASON— NOT GUILTY . (See last case.) WILLIAMS— GUILTY . †— Twelve Months' Hard Labour.

The Court concurred in a presentment of the Grand Jury as to the care and acuteness of the police constable Nicholls.

Reference Number: t18871212-123

123. JOHN PIPER(30) , Stealing a mare, a cab, and set of harness, belonging to Alfred Burgees.

MR. GILL Prosecuted.

WILLIAM BURGESS I live at 21, Long Yard, Lamb's Conduit Street—I assist my father, Alfred Burgess, a cab proprietor, of Lamb's conduit Street—about 6 p.m. on 29th November, cab No. 3882 left the yard driven by Frederick Thomas—he came back about 1 a.m. without the cab, and made a statement—I went with him in search of the cab—about 9 a.m. I saw it at the bottom of St. James's Street—the prisoner was driving it—no one was in it—I stopped the cab and gave the prisoner in

charge—Thomas said something, to which the prisoner replied "You started we with it"—the horse was sweating and covered with mud.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. I saw no fare get out of the cab—I did not say "stop, you have had that out long enough, you have been driving about too long"—you did not say "I have been started two or three times before"—it was not because you were not back in time—the driver said "I will start you with a policeman"—I said "Get down"—the driver denied starting you—you did not say "You are in a pretty row, you ought not to keep out so long"—the horse looked as if it had been racing about all night—I have not seen you before—I have not known you as driving a cab—Thomas drove Mr. Wilson's cab before he came into our service—the horse's foot was in the nose-bag.

FREDERICK GEORGE THOMAS . I live at 17, New North Street, Holborn—I drive cab 2583—on 29th November I went out in a cab for Mr. Burgess about 6 p.m.—I met another driver, a friend named Green, about 12—we went into the Bell public house, Leicester-street, Leicester square—we left our cabs outside—we were in the house four or five minutes at the outside—I spoke to no one—I went out first, and my cab was gone—I told Green and got into his cab and drove to the Police-station and then to Mr. Burgess's yard—I searched for the cab all night.—I went out with Mr. Burgess about 7 or 8, and about 9.20 I saw the prisoner driving it at the bottom end of St. James's Street;. no one was in it—I said "Pull up," and he pulled up—I do not remember saying anything, I was so excited—he said "You started me, now you are going to round on me"—I said "I will round on you when the policeman comes"—I had not started him with the cab—I had never spoken to him before.

Cross-examined. I had not seen you before except on the Monday, when you were trying to thieve a steak from the Temple Cab Shelter; that is the first time I spoke to you—I have had my licence stopped, but not taken away.

THOMAS GREEN . I live at 45, Ormond's Yard—on 29th November I was with Thomas driving cabs—just before 12 o'clock we went into the Bell public-house together, leaving the cabs outside for about 5 minutes at the outside—when we came out Thomas's cab was missing—I had seen the prisoner minding cabs, but not that night—I drove Thomas to Vine Street Police-station and to the yard to report the loss.

Cross-examined. I do not live in Drury Lane, nor belong to a gang there who are going to do a robbery—I never lived in Wych Street—I have driven a cab nine years—I have not lived in Drury Lane with the women who walk the Strand—I have had my licence all through—I, have always lived by driving a cab.

HORACE HOUSE (Policeman A 723). On 30th November I was in St. James's Street—Thomas gave the prisoner in charge for stealing a horse and cab—the prisoner said the driver (Thomas) started him with it over night.

Cross-examined. You said the driver started you in it, and you were to bring it back about 2 o'clock.

The Prisoner's Statement before the Magistrate. "I did not steal the horse and cab. I have no witnesses to call."

Prisoner's Defence. The driver has done this to clear himself; he started we with the cab, which is a common thing to do, only this night

I was not back in time. Green belongs to a gang who are trying to do a robbery, and because they were caught they waited fur me and smashed my face and cut my eye. I told about it, and that is why they do this. I live by minding cabs and cleaning the lamps.

GUILTY .*—He was further charged with a conviction of felony at this Court in May, 1881, in the name of Samuel Jones.

JOSEPH HOUGH (Policeman G R 29). I was present at this Court on 24th May, 1881, when the prisoner was convicted of stealing a horse and cab and set of harness and two rugs in the name of Samuel Jones, and sentenced to 12 months' hard labour—this is the certificate (produced).

GUILTY*.— Five Years' Penal Servitude.

Reference Number: t18871212-124

124. HENBY THOMAS HUNT(45) , Unlawfully obtaining from Samuel Thomas Stafford 30l., and an order for the payment of 30l. from George Pugsley Gamon.

MR. BLACKWELL Prosecuted; MR. SWAN Defended.

SAMUEL THOMAS STAFFORD . I am out of employment and living at Moore's Bridge, West Hallam, near Derby—on 4th July last I saw this advertisement in the Standard fir a clerk at 30s. a week and commission, 30l. cash security being required)—in consequence of reading that I wrote a letter and received this reply of 5th July from Hunt and Co., auctioneers, &c., 70, Fenchurch Street, asking for an appointment—in conesquence of receiving that I went to 70, Fenchurch Street, on 16th July, and saw the defendant on the first floor—there was Hunt and Co. on a board in red letters and two cases, one on each side the door of businesses for sale—there was a tailor's shop on the same floor—I said to the defendant "I am Mr. Stafford from Moore's Bridge, West Hallam, near Derby; I want to see Mr. Hunt with reference to his advertisement"—he said I am Mr. Hunt"—I said "I want to learn the particulars of business"—he said "I am an auctioneer, estate, hotel, and general business transfer agent; I am very old established; I have been established 30 years; I am in a large way of business, doing as much as 100l. per week; I want a young man to take charge of the general business to collect rents, accounts, and moneys, to take clients to view, attend the transfers, receive the deposits, and to obtain businesses for disposal; I want the 30l. as a guarantee that the money you receive one day will be paid in the next day; those moneys will amount to close upon 30l. a day"—he said "I am the sole partner in the firm trading as Hunt and Co.; my business is so large and increasing that I must open an office in the West End and at Lewisham. When the new office in the West End is opened I shall require you to take charge of that. I shall pay you 30s. a week and a commission"—the rates of commission are mentioned in the agreement—he said "The salary and commission will amount to over 2l. a week"—I said "I think it a good offer; you tell me you are in a large way of business, but before I close with you I should like to take time to consider it"—he showed me a few old papers—I said I did not reckon much about that; that was all right, but I wanted to see the books—he said "I do not keep any books; my business transactions are all cash"—he paid "I have received 25l. for the excellent way in which I do my business"—he showed me this agreement, drawn up ready for signature—I asked him to show me the way, as I wanted to see some of the sights of London, and he said "I never turn a band away from getting a honest

5s. "—he put me on a 'bus and I did not see him till 26th July—I had written to him in the interval, saying I would accept his offer—I came up again on 26th to 70, Fenchurch Street—I said to the defendant "I am not satisfied; I shall require some references"—he said "What better references could a man show than these papers, which prove my stability, but I will take you to some of my clients"—he took me to a public-house in the Mile End Road and a very dirty public-house off Commercial Street—he only treated me—he did not satisfy me as to his position—I said I should require further references—he said "I will do something for you that I have never done for any one, but I hope you will never mention it; I will take you to Somerset House to see my father's will"—he took me to Somerset House and showed me a will—I could not make much out of the will; I am not used to that sort of thing—I believed he was what he represented himself to be—I went back to the office and waited for him, but he did not come—I saw him again at five the same evening at Fenchurch Station waiting room—his managing clerk took me there—the defendant said "You see how business men are worried; when you think you are going home something turns up to prevent you"—they both took me back to the office—I paid the money and got a receipt—Mr. Gear, the manager, was present—I signed his agreement of 26th July. (By this Hunt agreed to pay 30s. a week and certain commissions to the prosecutor for his services as clerk, terminable on a month's notice, 30l. deposit being paid by the prosecutor. Also a receipt for same). I parted with my 30l. because I believed him when he told me the splendid business he was doing, and I thought I should have my 30l. in my hand every day—then they sent me home—that was about five p.m.—I came the next morning, when the manager gave me this list of businesses for disposal, and names of persons on whom I was to call—no business was done—in the six weeks I received about 3s. for an advertisement—that was all I received on account of business done—I received 30s. salary for the first week—I did not see Mr. Hunt at business—I went at 10 in the morning, and left about 6, but my duties were outdoors—I did not get my full wages the second week, but only 10s. from the managing clerk, Mr. Gear—at the end of six weeks I wrote to Mr. Hunt, and received this letter from him (Stating"I was at the office yesterday, and to-day, but did not see you; kindly see me on Tuesday next at two o'clock)—I went at the time indicated—I did not see him—this letter of 20th September is an answer to one I wrote: "Kindly see me at 12 on Thursday, or make an appointment by letter for next week. I was unable to keep the other"—I also received this postcard of 22nd September, and I kept the appointment mentioned in the letter. ("Make it 1 o'clock when you call instead of 12.30.") I saw the defendant on the 22nd at 70, Fenchurch Street—I said "I must have an explanation; you have swindled me; my duties are totally different. I never find any business being done, and I demand an explanation"—he said "There is no business being done; things are so very quiet"—I said to him "Where is the commission coming from? Where are the moneys, the rents, and the accounts I ought to have picked up"—he said "There are none now"—I said "Why did you take my 30l.?"—he said "I know I took it wrongly, but I was hard up; I had to meet a payment and must get money from somewhere"—I said "I shall take proceedings against you"—he said "Do not hurt me; give me another month, and I

will pay you all I owe"—I said "Have you served anyone else the same"—he said "No"—I said "Why did you serve Mr. Gamon and Mr. Davis so then?"—ho said "I intend to pay them if things will only turn round," and he said "If you will wait one month I will finish up all"—meaning that my duties would be at an end—that was to finish all the business connection between us—I said I would give him a trial, which was accepted—I was away for about a month or five weeks—on the day it was appointed I should recommence, Hunt failed to pay me the salary—he promised to pay me a week's salary in advance—then I got this letter. (Dated 24th, September, 1887. From Hunt, 70, Fenchurch Street, to the witness: "Circumstances prevented me doing as I wished, but notwithstanding I shall be at the office at 10 o'clock on Monday, when I hope to meet you, and if you work with me with a will you may depend upon a good result.") On the 26th I received a postal order for 1l. in the letter produced of 3rd October: "I missed the party on Saturday therefore shall not be able to do anything for you until Thursday morning. I shall be at the office soon after 10 o'clock on Monday"—that referred to paying me another week's salary—I got this letter of the 8th (a similar letter)—I stayed in the prisoner's service till November 1st—on the 18th October I wrote to him giving him a month's notice—I received this reply: "I received your notice to leave at one month from above date, and for withdrawal of security"—during the whole time I was in the defendant's service I only received 9l. in wages for about 15 weeks although I was entitled to 30s. a week—on the 1st November I went to the secretary of the Young Men's Christian Association in Aldersgate Street (City Branch), who put me in communication with Mr. Haywood, their solicitor—acting on my instructions Mr. Haywood communicated with the defendant. (letter read from Mr. Hay wood to the defendant stating "unless the deposit was returned by 11 o'clock to-morrow morning he should go at once to the Mansion House for a summons.") I was very anxious to get my money back—15l. was my own money; a friend lent me the rest—I did not get my money back—an application was made at the Mansion House before I parted with my money.

Cross-examined. I received this letter from the defendant of 5th November (Stating: "Referring to your letter of the 18th ult., if you will make an appointment for Monday, November 14th, say 2 o'clock, I will keep same, and shall be prepared to complete my part of the agreement, and pay over guarantee money")—I had written in October to receive back my deposit—I waited for my deposit in pursuance of my notice, and then applied to the Magistrate—before 14th November I had two interviews with the defendant—he showed me his father's will to prove his stability, but I was not satisfied as to his business stability—seeing the will only influenced me so far as it applied to himself—it proved that he was something of a man privately, and then I believed his word as a business man—I should have parted with my money if I had not seen the will—I wanted more references, but if I could not have got them I should have paid my money—that is why I said I was not satisfied—Mr. Haywood has conducted this case for me—I was a great deal out of the office in the daytime—a public-house broker usually is—the notes in the list produced are my writing—they represent the work done upon a particular day—when I went to the defendant's I did not understand anything of the business—I had acted as book-keeper—what

I did was by the instructions of the managing clerk—I saw the proprietors of public-houses as the defendant's clients—I did not ascertain what they were—he said they were his clients, and I took his word—when I asked him for references he took me to these public-houses; that I was before I paid my money—I called upon every person mentioned in the list produced, and made notes of the business I did—I did my part of the business—I got the businesses for disposal, and put them on the file—that was by the direction of the managing clerk, who put me in the way of doing everything that was required.

Re-examined. The defendant said "I will take you round to two of my clients," and he took me to a public-house—he did not introduce me to the landlord, but simply treated me—I took all he said to be correct—he did introduce me to a man at the dirty public-house off the Commercial Road as the landlord who vouched for his respectability, and gave me a drink there—I had the money with me, but wanted as much evidence of his respectability as I could get before I paid it—I had made up my mind to take the situation—I told him after seeing the public-houses that I was not satisfied—I said so at the police-court as far as I can recollect.

JOSEPH GAMMON . I am a manure and seed merchant, at Nankee, near Barnstaple—before 5th August, 1886, I saw an advertisement in the Daily Telegraph, in consequence of which I wrote, and received a reply, and two days afterwards I called at 70, Fenchurch Street, where I I saw the prisoner—he said he was in a large way as a broker, hotel and business agent; that he was the sole partner, and had been established over 30 years—he showed me his old books, and said it was all cash transactions then—he told me a few years ago he had done 100l. a day—he said he wanted 30l. deposit for security, as I should take about 30l. and 40l. a day; that I was to receive 30s. a week and commission and that the two together would amount to over 2l. a week anyhow—the next day I paid him at 70, Fenchurch Street a cheque for 30l. Dingly, Pearce, and Co., Okehampton—that cheque was passed through the bank and the money received—I parted with it from his account of the business he was doing—I believed the representations he made to me—there were a couple of loafers in the office that helped me out—I signed this agreement at that time; it was already drawn up, and was all ready but the filling in. (This was dated 5th August, and was similar to the other.) My cheque was the receipt for the money—on the day I paid my money and signed the agreement I commenced business for the defendant—I stayed with him altogether about four months—for the first few weeks I got my salary all right—afterwards I did not receive it regularly; I got it in 10s., and that sort of thing; in fact I hunted him up for it, but I did not get as much as 30s. in any one week—there was no business whatever done there—when I could not get my wages I stopped in the office to see what was done—the prisoner did not come; I had to hunt for him—I left the prisoner about November 15th or 16th—before that I asked him for my deposit and back wages, and he said he would pay me if I would give him time; he was an honest man—I had not hinted he was not an honest man—he gave me this bill for 35l. at six months—I paid it into my bankers; it was dishonoured, and he did not even pay the costs—I did not get a red cent—at the same time he gave me this other bill at three months for 30l., dated 15th November, the same as the other—he gave me a bill for 35l., because

there was 12l. owing for salary as well as the deposit—he said he had a wife and family, and asked for time to pay, and said he was an honest man, and I said I would let him off for 35l., and the 35l. was to settle the amount of my salary and deposit—I was willing to take it in settlement of my claim—the other bill for 30l. was for another man named Davis, who had been deceived in the same way as myself—I saw him then after I had been there two weeks—I had conversations with him, and smelt a rat—the day the bills were drawn I and Davis spoke to the prisoner together—the prisoner owed Davis more salary than he did me—Davis said he would give the prisoner time to pay, and the prisoner said he would pay; he was an honest man—Davis said he had not any banking account, and the prisoner said he would give me the bills as I had a banking account—I drew out the bills on November 15th, and the prisoners accepted them—I sent them to the bank—they would be due last February and May; they were dishonoured—I have not had a cent of my deposit from the prisoner—I was communicated with by Mr. Stafford—I don't know where Davis is now.

Cross-examined. I am a master, buying and selling seeds—at the time I entered into the prisoner's employment I was not a manure and need merchant; I had just come home from the Cape of Good Hope—the prisoner showed me his old ledger, day-book, &c, three or four books—I looked into them; I understand books—I gathered from the books that he had done several public-house changes of 25l., 35l., and on—I reckoned them up for one day—he said he had done 100l., and he had pretty well—I reckoned up and found they came to 100l. for one day—I can't say what year that was; some time before—he picked out this 100l. day—I asked him to point out another day where he had done as much—he showed me several in the books where he had done not quite 100l.—he said it was hard times now, and he had not done much—if I had thought it was as hard as it was he would not have got my money—he referred to the date at which he was speaking being not so good as it had been previously—I guess he had rather depreciated the business at the time I parted with my money.

Re-examined. While I was there, no business was done—he told me at the time he was doing business as a public-house broker, auctioneer, and business transfer agent.

FREDERICK LAWLEY (City Detective Sergeant) On 7th November I went to Albert Villas, Catford Bridge, about half-past 9—after some difficulty, the defendant being denied to me, I went up to the top of the house into the prisoner's bedroom, and there I saw him—he was just dressing—I told him I was a police officer, and held a warrant for his arrest—I read the warrant to him; it was for obtaining 40l. by false pretences from Mr. Stafford—after I had read it he said "I had no intention to defraud him; if he had waited he would have got his money"—I then conveyed him to Seething Lane Police-station—I searched him; he was charged; he made no answer to the charge, which at that time related to Stafford only—I found on him 6 1/2 d. and these 15 pawnbroker's duplicates relating to carpenters' tools and jewellery pledged for sums from 1s. to 3l.—he was wearing a brass chain. no watch—I afterwards went to the office at 70, Fenchurch Street—I found this letter-book—there was no day-book, ledger, journal, or any books which you would expect to find in an auctioneer's office—there

were a large number of old papers lying about—a number of leaves have been taken out of the press copy letter-book—I see the name of Stafford in the index with page 278 against it—that page 278 has been torn out of the book—all letters indexed to Stafford and Gammon have been taken out—there are a number of letters to Gammon in the index—there were old books and papers there—I could not say if there were any books with entries of business within the last 12 months.

SOLOMON SOLOMON . I am a tailor, of 70, Fenchurch Street—I lire at 50, Duke Street, Aldgate—I am leaseholder of the house at 70, Fen-church Street; I took those premises in March—the prisoner has had an office on the ground floor at 30l. a year since March—he owes me nearly three-quarters' rent; he has paid me no rent whatever—I took the premises from Mr. Arnsdale—I was standing in my doorway with Mr. Charles Arnsdale, and the prisoner passed through to his office—Arnsdale, in the prisoner's hearing, said "There goes the scoundrel that owes me nearly three years' rent; Hunt said nothing—he was only in there a few seconds, and then he sneaked out—I was at this place every day—I saw no business whatever carried on there; there were pretensions, but no business—he made appearance of doing a large business by the appearance of the office—there were applications for small amounts, summonses and that sort of thing, in and out—I saw the prisoner there once in about six weeks—I am on the same floor, the ground floor; his door is right opposite mine; no one can come in or out of his office without my seeing them from my door—I sued the prisoner in the City of London Court, but did not get my money.

Cross-examined. I have a shop—I am there every day—I am old-established—Arnsdale made the statement in the prisoner's presence as he passed through—he was two or three feet from me—I went into the prisoner's office to ask for my rent—it was fitted up very plainly; there were two or three old broken chairs; it was badly furnished; the furniture was worth about 15s.

SIDNEY WHITING . I was a grocer's assistant; I left on Saturday, and am now out of employment—I now live at 5, King Street, Deptford—about 25th July I entered the prisoner's employment as a junior clerk at 70, Fenchurch Street—I did not see the prisoner when I went, only the manager—I was to go for two months for nothing on trial, and after that I was to receive a small sum as salary, he did not say how much—I entered the service the same morning, and remained about six weeks, and I saw there was no business done, and I spoke to my parents—during the whole time I was there no business was done whatever that I saw—I had nothing to do—I had no one to help me—Gear was the manager—I left—I only saw the prisoner once in the six weeks I was there—he was there about half an hour—he locked himself in when he came, he locked us both in.

Witnesses for the Defence.

HENRY GILL . I live at the Sugar Loaf in Hanbury Street, and am a fully licensed publican—I have known the prisoner about five years as a public-house broker—on two occasions he has done business for me—he brokered me in the house in which I am now—31st August was the last date.

Cross-examined. I know nothing of him beyond this—I cannot say he was doing business at 30l., a day, or 100l. a week, or anything of that

sort—the first date was four years ago, I should think, and then the last last year.

GEORGE HART . I am a publican, and keep the Sovereign beer and wine house, Mile End Road—I hare known the prisoner seven years as a public-house broker—I have had three business transactions with him; he sold me a fully licensed house in 1880, and exchanged another for me in 1883, and the last was in September, 1886.

Cross-examined. That is all I know about him—I do not remember seeing Stafford.

GUILTY .— Fifteen Months' Hard Labour.

Reference Number: t18871212-125

125. THOMAS REED(22) , Stealing a roll of mantle cloth, the goods of Elias Holt.

MR. METCALFE Prosecuted; MR. PURCELL Defended.

After the case had commenced the prisoner desired to withdraw his plea of NOT GUILTY, and the Jury on that found him

GUILTY .

He then PLEADED GUILTY**†to a conviction of felony at this Court is February, 1885, in the name of Thomas Ayres.— Twelve Months' Hard Labour.

FOURTH COURT.—Tuesday, December 13th, 1887.

Before Robert Malcolm Kerr, Esq.

Reference Number: t18871212-126

126. JOHN GEORGE RAY(39) PLEADED GUILTY to stealing three pieces of cloth, the property of Frank Keller and others, his masters, after a conviction at this Court in February, 1882.— Five years' Penal Servitude.

Reference Number: t18871212-127

127. WILLIAM AGER(48) to unlawfully making false entries in a cash book belonging to his master.— Judgment respited.[Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

Reference Number: t18871212-128

128. JOHN CLARK(22) to stealing an overcoat and other articles, the goods of Frederick George Baker and others, his masters; also to obtaining from John Davis 4? pieces of cloth, with intent to defraud.— Six Months' Hard Labour [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.] . And

Reference Number: t18871212-129

129. CHARLES ARNOLD(44) to burglary in the dwelling-house of Ebenezer Newby, and stealing eight dead salmon his property.— Six Months' Hard Labour. Judgment respited.[Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

Reference Number: t18871212-130

130. THOMAS JONES' (54) , Embezzling 10l. 3s. 6d., 22l. 10s., and 13l. 8s., received by him on account of Arthur Edmeston Watson his master.

MR. MUIR Prosecuted; MR. AVORY Defended.

WILLIAM FREDERICK ELDRIDGE . I am a printer, of 39, Fish Street Hill, and am a customer of Alexander Cowan and Sons—on 21st April last year, I owed them an account for paper of 10l. 8s. 9d.; I caused it to be paid, and was allowed discount, and the net sum I paid was 10l. 3s. 6d.—I received this receipt (produced)—I am acquainted with the prisoner's writing, and I should say that this is his writing—it is signed with his name.

THOMAS FRANKLIN TODHUNTER . I am a stationer, of 64, Graham Street, and am a customer of Alexander Cowan and Sons—in July last year I owed them 22l. 10s. 5d.—I personally paid the prisoner 22l. 10s. in notes and cash, and he wrote this receipt and gave it to me.

SARAH ELLEN FROST . I am a stationer, and also postmistress, at 3, Albert Terrace, Finchley, and am a customer of Alexander Cowan and Sons—in July last year I owed them 14l. 4s. 3d.—the net sum paid was

13l. 8s., which I personally paid over the counter, but not to the prisoner, and I then got this receipt (produced) in the prisoner's writing—I did not see him write it.

Cross-examined. I do not know the person to whom I paid it, I should not know him again—I have paid it to several employees at the firm—I received the receipt at the time—as a rule, Mr. Jones brought me the receipt from the counting-house.

Re-examined. I could not swear whether on this occasion the prisoner handed me the receipt, as a rule he brought it to me.

ARTHUR EDMESTON WATSON . I am one of the firm of Alexander Cowan and Sons, of Edinburgh and London, paper and wholesale stationers—the prisoner has been in our employment 32 years—I entered the firm as a clerk in 1878; at that time the prisoner kept the books and the cash—I then took over the superintendence from the prisoner of the cash-book and the cash, and have kept them ever since except in my absence on holidays—the prisoner's salary lately was 200l. a year—looking in the cash-book at the date of 21st April last year, I can say that I was not in the office on that day—in my absence it was the prisoner's duty to keep the cash-book and cash, and on 21st April that book is in the prisoner's handwriting—there is no entry in the cash-book on that day of the receipt of 10l. 3s. 6d. from Mr. Eldridge—in the town ledger under the date of 13th April there is an entry of 10l. 8l. 9d., the gross amount is entered in the ledger, not the net amount—there is no entry in the cash-book on 13th April of the payment on that day of 10l. 3s. 6d.—if I was absent and the prisoner kept the cash-book and cash, it was his duty on my return to hand over the proper balance to me—he has never accounted to me for this 10l. 3s. 6d. and there is no one else in the firm to whom he could account—on 10th July I was in charge of the cash-book—I and the other clerks usually go out to our lunch about 1 o'clock, and in my absence the prisoner would take charge of the cash-book and when I returned he would hand over to me any sum he might have received and give me the name of the customer—he might enter it in the cash-book—I should see his writing there when he handed me the money—there is no entry of 22l. 10s. on 10th July, 1886, and the prisoner has never accounted to me for that sum—in the ledger account of Mr. Todhunter, under the date of 10th July, there is a credit to him of 22l. 10s. 5d. and a marginal reference to the cash-book thus, "Cash folio 149," which signified that on turning to the cash-book the corresponding amount would be found there to the customer's credit, but there is no corresponding entry—on 13th July the cash-book is also in my writing, but I find no amount of 13l. 8s. entered there as having been paid by Miss Frost, nor do I find any entry of that sum on 19th July—on 19th July in the ledger account of Miss Frost I find an entry of 14l. 4s. 3d., and there is a reference to a corresponding entry in the cash-book, but there is no such entry there—he has never accounted to me for that sum—about October in this year I discovered that some entries in the ledger had no corresponding entry in the cash-book, and that a sum of money was deficient—I told the prisoner what I had discovered and asked him to make a clean breast of the whole thing, and I said that we had found out about 120l. and asked him if there was any more—he said there was no more—I continued my investigations,

and as a result I communicated with the police, and the prisoner was arrested.

Cross-examined. He was arrested at our solicitor's office, Pancras Lane, City—I knew that my solicitor had written to him asking him to call—he had had several interviews with him before that, and I had had two or three interviews with him—we wished to get the prisoner's assistance to find out the extent of his defalcations—he came voluntarily in the first place to find out whether we were going to prosecute him or not, and we declined to say—we never had these interviews with him for the purpose of seeing what security he could give for the defalcations; there was no conversation about that—he was asked to sign a deed relating to a former robbery, I mean that 10 years ago he was not right in his cash by 240l. but my father kept him on then and reduced his salary to 200l., and the prisoner deposited with us then a lease of his house, and on the first day we discovered these robberies we communicated with our solicitor and he advised us as we had no security about the house to ask the prisoner to sign this mortgage in order to give us power to sell—his salary 10 years ago was 300l. and we then reduced it to 200l.—he said at first that he would not sign without seeing what was in it, but after having read it he signed it this (produced) is the mortgage that he executed; it professes to cover 270l. which the prisoner was short in 1878—the reduction in his salary had nothing to do with his deficiencies, it was because he broke his trust; it was not to repay ourselves; he did not do such responsible work afterwards—he was arrested about a month after the execution of this mortgage—I kept the books when he went to lunch, he had to wait till I came back—he occasionally made entries in the cash-book, but he need not; if he did so I should see the entry and he would hand the amount over to me, but he generally wrote on a piece of paper and handed me the cash afterwards—his general rule was not to enter it in the cash-book—the cash was kept in a box in the safe—I did not give him the key of that box when I went out, and he would either put the money he received on his desk or into his pocket—he would have to account count to me for any sums he had received when I returned—he never went to the end of the day—the ledger was also kept in the same office as the cash-box—we used to compare the cash-book with the ledger; the prisoner did that—the cash-book was open to my observation every day.

Re-examined This letter of 18th December, 1878, is in the prisoner's writing, and is addressed to our firm. (This stated:) "I herewith deposit with you this day, 18th December, 1878, the lease of my house at Walthamstow as security against the sum of 270l., which appears to be deficient in my account.") It is signed by the prisoner—the value of the house is about 200l.—at that time I was apprenticed to an accountant, but in consequence of these cash matters I broke my indentures and came into this office and took charge of the cash—that was the principal part of the prisoner's work—although this charge has existed on his house no steps have been taken to enforce it, and no steps would have been taken but for this matter—the deficit in 1878 was shown by the books—there was no falsification of entries; he had not entered in the books all the sums he had received—my father is now dead—he treated this matter as a debt by the prisoner—the prisoner used occasionally to post up the cash in the cash-book; that was his duty when the town ledger was

away—he did the comparison of the books, and he was the person who ought to have pointed out any discrepancies.

JOHN MITCHELL (City Detective Sergeant). On 17th November, about 11 a.m., I arrested the prisoner and told him I was a detective sergeant of the City Police, and I should arrest him on a charge of embezzling, on 5th February, 22l. 17s. 8d., the moneys of his masters, Alexander Cowen and Co.—he said "Very well"—he was taken to the station and charged, and afterwards brought before a Magistrate and remanded, and then, on the 24th he was committed to take his trial.

Cross-examined. He was arrested at Mr. Chapman's office—I had been looking out for him two or three days, and it was partly at my suggestion that the solicitor wrote to him to come to his office.

GUILTY .— Eighteen Months' Hard Labour.

There were two other indictments against the prisoner.

Reference Number: t18871212-131

131. GEORGE BARKER(48) , Burglary in the dwelling—house of John Walker, and stealing nine watches, 105 pins, three necklets, and other articles, his property. Second Count, receiving.

MR. METCALFE Prosecuted.

JOHN WALKER . I am a jeweller, at High Road, Finchley—on the night of 17th November my shop was property shut up, and at about 3.45 a.m. on the 18th I was aroused by a smashing of glass in the front of the shop—I went down, and found a large pane of glass broken out of the window; that was perfectly safe and sound the night before—I had revolving shutters in front of my shop with iron wires inside—several pieces of wood had been cut out, the iron wires moved on one side, and the window smashed—I missed 11 silver watches, 24 gold rings, 30 ladies' gem rings, 80 signet rings, seven necklets, one silver cross, 15 silver pins, and other articles, value altogether 80l.—this (produced) is part of the property; they have my private mark on them.

ALBERT HATTON (Policeman M 196). I am stationed at Fore Street police point, Blackfriars Road—at 10.15 p.m. on 18th November I was called by an assistant to Mr. Hyam's shop, 60, Blackfriars Road, and there saw the prisoner with this watch (produced), which he was offering in pledge—the pawnbroker said in his presence that the number of the watch was the same as one circulated—I asked the prisoner how it came into his possession—he said he bought it a few days before, and would produce the receipt if I would accompany him to 14, Broadwall—I left the shop with him, and he immediately ran away—I gave chase after him, and when in Volunteer Place he turned and faced me—we struggled together for about 20 minutes, and I then threw him to the road—he then threw me on my back, but I got up and used my truncheon—another constable then arrived, and he was taken in custody—on the way to the station he said "You cannot blame me, governor, for trying to get away"—at the station I searched him and found 11 shilling and 4d. in bronze, these two silver pins, and a knife—he said he had bought the five a.m. on the 18th I received information of this burglary, and went and examined this shop—a hole had been made in the shutters by a centre bit and a piece of glass about six inches by seven had been cut out of the window apparently by a diamond—outside the window I found a pair

of woolen socks, which smelt of hay, and I afterwards saw the prisoner's boots taken from him, and there was then a sample of hay inside them—I telegraphed at once to all the stations, and at 11 p.m. the prisoner was arrested—he said he knew nothing about the charge, but knew about the watch and pins.

Cross-examined. You did not say that the watch and pins had been given to you to pawn by a man who had previously lodged with you.

GEORGE HALL . I am manager to Abraham Hyams, a pawnbroker, of Blackfriars Road—on 18th November, between 11 and 12, the prisoner came in with a ladies' silver Geneva watch and offered it in pledge—I saw it was a new watch; I had just received at list, and looked down the numbers and found that it corresponded with one of them—I presented to take it in and communicated with the police.

JOHN GIBBS . I am a labourer of Whetstone—on the night of 17th November, between 11 and 12, I was in the Griffin Inn, Whetstone—the prisoner came in and called for some beer—I had not seen him before; I am sure of him—that is about a mile from Mr. Walker's shop.

Cross-examined. I don't know the other man who was standing with you at the station when I came to pick you out.

JOHN BRADLEY . I am gardener to Mr. Homan, of Frien Watch, Finchley—he has a shrubbery adjoining Mr. Walker's shop—on 26th November I was working in that shrubbery and found these tools (produced), which I gave to the police.

The prisoner in his defence stated that a man gave them to him to pawn, and that he gave a description of him to the police.

GUILTY on the second Count .— Eighteen Months' Hard Labour.

Reference Number: t18871212-132

132. JAMES LILLEY was indicted for wilful and corrupt perjury.

MR. METCALFE Prosecuted; MR. WILLS Defended.

CLAUDE JAMES JONES . I am a timber merchant, of 76, East India Road. Poplar—I have had dealings with the defendant, and have supplied him during July, August, and September, with timber to the amount of 56l.; there is now a balance due of 36l. 10s. 2d.—at that time he was building some houses at Argyle Road Custom House—on 15th October I applied personally for my account at Dongola Road, Plaistow, where he lived—I met him with his goods loaded up in a van, and asked him for the address where he was moving to, but he would not give it to me—he said he intended to pay, but if I served him with a writ he would not, and he would make good care of his goods—I said if he did not give me his address I could follow him—he then gave me his address at Romford—I afterwards wrote there and received this letter in his writing. (This was dated October 31st, and was from Romford, and stated that he would let the witness have some money as soon as he could get some himself.) On 2nd November I instructed my solicitor to take out a writ in the High Court—I could have gone to the Country Court, but I preferred the High Court.

Cross-examined. I have known the prisoner since last June, and knew that he was a builder—I know he built eight houses in Argyle Road, Custom House, and I know that my timber was delivered there to help to build those houses; they are apparently completed now; people are living in them—I believe that he moved to Romford in order to be near his work; he was building some houses there—after I told him I would

follow him in my trap he wrote down his correct address at Romford, and I knew always where to find him—there were many deliveries of goods from time to time on the works—the items on the back of the writ and the items which were delivered do not identically agree, but the totals do—there were several transactions, and they are made into one item on the back of the writ—I got my judgment eventually, and I believe the sheriff has been put in possession since the prisoner was committed here last Friday—the prisoner has the eight houses; they are only subject to the freeholder's claim on them.

PAGE TURNER . I am clerk to my father, a solicitor, at Hare Chambers, Fleet Street—I issued the writs in the action of Jones against Lilley, and notice of process was received on 10th November—on 11th I took out a summons under Order 14, and on the 17th I appeared before Master George Pollock—Mr. King's clerk was on the other side, and he produced an affidavit, of which I had received a copy, and upon the Master reading that he gave the defendant leave to defend on the condition that he paid the money into court within a week—on 26th November I went to the Pay Office at the Royal Courts of Justice, and found no money had been paid in, and I then signed judgment, and on 28th November I executed that judgment.

WILLIAM JAMES FIELD . I am a clerk in the affidavit department of the Royal Courts of Justice—I produce the original affidavit, a copy of which has been produced, in the action of Jones against Lilley—it was filed in our office on 18th November; it had previously been used before the Master.

HENRY HARD . I am a solicitor, at 26, Blake Road, Hammersmith, and a Commissioner to administer oaths in the Supreme Court of Judicature of England—this affidavit was sworn by the defendant before me on 15th November—I saw him sign it.

Cross-examined. I did not read it over to him; I read it over to myself—it was drawn by his solicitor, who requested me to swear it.

JULIUS JONES . I live at 21, Starry Street, Poplar, and am the prosecuter's brother—I served the defendant on 3rd November with a copy of the writ in the action of my brother against Lilley, at his buildings at the corner of Poplar Street, Romford—I said "I have come to see what you are going to do about the payment of the money to my brother"—he said "I have written to your brother telling him I will pay as soon as I get any money"—I said—"We have waited long enough now, and I have a writ to serve you with"—he said "I expected this; I was going to pay, but now I will not pay a d—d halfpenny," and he used, filthy and beastly language.

CHARLES NICHOLAS . I am an officer in the employment of the Sheriff of Essex—on 1st December an execution was given tome to levy against the defendant, and I tried to levy it, but was unable to get into his premises the first time—I made repeated endeavours to get in, and on the 9th I succeeded, and found a bit of furniture there value about 5l. or 6l. and also a claim for rent.

Cross-examined. The rent was 3l.—I went into his private house.

The prisoner received a good character.

NOT GUILTY .

Reference Number: t18871212-133

133. FREDERICK DRAPER was indicted for wilful and corrupt perjury.

MR. METCALFE, for the Prosecution, offered no evidence.

NOT GUILTY .

Reference Number: t18871212-134

134. HAT MARX(21) , Unlawfully taking Lizzie Boaz, a girl under the age of 18, out of the possession and against the will of her mother, with intent to carnally know her.

MR. A. METCALFE Prosecuted.

The Prosecutrix stated that her age was 19. The COURT therefore directed a verdict of

NOT GUILTY .

NEW COURT.—Wednesday, December 14th, 1887.

Before Mr. Recorder.

Reference Number: t18871212-135

135. HENRY JONES(20) , Burglariously breaking and entering the dwelling-house of John Stephen Palmer, with intent to steal.

MR. GRIFFITHS Prosecuted.

WILLIAM SULLIVAN . I am a greengrocer, of 180, Holloway Road—the numbers are even on one side and odd on the other—on 19th Nov., about 1.25 a.m. I was with Mr. Montagu in Holloway Road, and saw two men move out of No. 194, an empty house; one had boots on, the other had not—we followed them, and they ran round Eden Grove—they saw us and turned back, and the prisoner asked me for a penny for his lodging; he then asked for a pair of boots for his friend—I said "You don't want any boots, and you don't want any penny"—I heard an alarm bell ringing, and asked them to go back to see what was the matter—they would not—I said "You will have to come back," and we each laid hold of one—I said "I think you have been stealing the working men's tools"—the other man got away—we took the prisoner back to 194, and found Mr. Palmer ringing a bell at 192—we kept the prisoner till he was given in custody.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. Mr. Palmer did not come down, nor did the servant say that it was two men with billycocks; the servant was not there.

THOMAS MONTAGUE . I live at 253, Holloway Road—I was with Mr. Sullivan—I have heard his evidence, it is correct.

Cross-examined. You did not attempt to run—I did not tell the inspector I was not certain it was you; I said that I could not swear to the other man, but I could to you.

HARRIET ALLEN . I am servant to Mr. Palmer, 192, Holloway Road—on 19th November, early in the morning, I was in bed on the top floor, and was awoke by glass breaking, and saw a man with a billycock hat on kneeling on my window ledge—there is a skylight on the floor below, near the wall of No. 194—I aroused my master, who was sleeping in the next room—the water-closet is just under my window—it projects.

JOHN STEPHEN PALMER . I am an oil and colourman, of 192, Holloway Road—on 18th November I went to bed at a quarter or half-past 11, having seen the house safely locked up—my servant aroused me in the early morning, and I heard glass breaking—I rang a large bell which I keep under my bed—I went down and found the prisoner in custody—I found the water-closet door bolted outside; I unbolted it, and found this jemmy under the seat—there was a mark on the water-closet door, as if a person had tried to break it open, and the mark corresponded with the

jemmy—the window was open, and there was the mark of a penknife on it, as if it had been put up to move the latch, back—a wall divides my garden from that of No. 194, which was unoccupied—if a person got on that wall they could get into my garden, and from the cistern on to the ledge of the servant's window—they could get from the skylight to the water-closet window; it all connects—I found two pairs of boots in the garden.

FREDERICK COLE (Policeman). I heard a bell ringing, went to Mr. Palmer's house, and saw the prisoner in custody of Montague and Sullivan—he had boots on—I found in the garden of No. 194 marks of a man with boots on backwards and forwards from the back door of 192, going to the wall and returning, and several marks of feet without boots—I found two pair of men's boots there (produced)—I saw broken glass in the window, and the back door of No. 194 was open—Sullivan said that he saw two men leave the house; the prisoner made no answer to that.

Cross-examined. You did not tell me that two men came from the shop and asked you where there was a lodging-house, you said that you saw two men come out of No. 194 and cross Holloway Road, and one of them asked you if you had got a pair of boots to give him, and you said "I know nothing about the charge"—I did not take your boots and compare them, because the marks were too indistinct.

The prisoner produced a written defence, stating that he saw two men without boots come out of the empty house, one of whom asked him where there was a lodging-house, that he took him towards one on the other side of the road, when they met Mr. Sullivan, and the two men escaped and he was taken.

NOT GUILTY .

Reference Number: t18871212-136

136. JOHN WILLIAMS , Stealing 296 gross of sewing silk, the property of Messrs. Baylis and others.

MR. ST. AUBYN Prosecuted.

ADAM BROWN . I am warehouseman to Wardell and Davenport, of Leek, Staffordshire—on 21st November I packed 296 3/4 gross of embroidery silk, in a case addressed to Baylis, Galler and Co., 29, Newgate Street, London, and delivered it to the agent of the London and North-Western Railway to bring up—this is it (produced).

FRREDERICK ROBERT POTTS . I am packer to Baylis and Co., of 29, Newgate Street—on 27th November I received from the London and North-Western Railway a case of embroidery silk, which was deposited in a recess on our premises alongside the dock entrance—I saw it last at a quarter to 6 p.m., and missed it a few minutes after 6 o'clock—a truck was also taken—the police have since handed me a portion of it.

ALFRED BAKER . I am manager at the silk department of Messrs. Baylis and Galler—I have the invoice of the contents of this case 296 3/4 gross of embroidery silk, value 126l. 3s.

THOMAS FORD (Policeman M 73). On 26th November, about 8.45 p.m., I saw the prisoner in Southwark Park Road wheeling a costermonger's barrow with a tea-chest on it—I was in plain clothes—I said 'Where did you get that tea from?"—he said "It is not tea, governor"—I said "What is it?"—he said "Cotton"—another man then came up, and said "Halloa, what is the matter here?"—I said "Why? has it anything to do with you I am a policeman; I want to see what is in this box"—he said "We are just going to take it to the governor's"—I

said "Who is the governor?"—he said "Mr. Hall; I will go and fetch him"—the prisoner said "Make haste; I don't want to be stopped here all night"—the other man ran away—I said to the prisoner "Where is Hall's place?"—he said "Down here, but that has nothing to do with me; the man who has gone away asked me to wheel the barrow"—I took him to Rotherhithe Station—the case contained 74 boxes of silk, representing 73 gross.

The prisoner in his defence stated that he was employed to wheel the barrow.

GUILTY . He then PLEADED GUILTY** to a conviction at Newington in May, 1886, in the name of John Grover.— Five Years' Penal Servitude.

Reference Number: t18871212-137

137. PATRICK CARROLL(26) and CHARLES MOY(18) , Robbery with violence on Timothy Allen, and stealing 11s. and some pawntickets, his property.

MR. PARKS Prosecuted.

TIMOTHY ALLEN . I live at 6, Euston Road—on 23rd November, shortly after midnight, I was in Seymour Street, Euston Square—I had had a little drink, but knew what I was doing—the two prisoners collared me, one on each side, and pulled me backwards—while I was on my back I could see them plainly—I was knocked on my head—one man put his hand in one pocket and one in the other, and I saw a third man run away—the blow stunned me, but I was able to cry out "Murder"—I lost 7s. or 8s., and some pawn-tickets.

Cross-examined by Carroll. I had some coffee at a stall; no one was with me—I did not turn the corner with three or four men behind me, nor did they knock me down; it was you who pulled me back first and struck me afterwards, and one of you struck me on my head, and I lost my memory and senses for a time.

Re-examined. The prisoners pulled me down, and I saw them after they got me on my back—I cried out "Murder!" after they collared me, and they struck me after that at the very last when I was holloaing out.

GEORGE WALKER . I live at 7, Star Crescent Mews, St. Pancras—I have a coffee-stall at the corner of Euston Square—early on the morning of 24th November the prisoners had some coffee at my stall, and after they left I heard a disturbance at the corner of Seymour Street, and a cry of "Murder!"—I went round a corner, and saw Allen on the ground and the two prisoners standing over him—a constable came up.

Cross-examined by Carroll. I do not know that you went to pick the man up; you held him by one arm and had your, other hand on his shoulder—I did not see you pick him up—I did not see the end of it—I turned to get assistance—there were about four persons at my stall—you did not run away.

Re-examined. I saw them picking him up.

ROBERT CARRAHER (Policeman S 200). In the early morning of 24th November I was in Euston Road, and heard cries of "Murder," and went with Noakes and saw Allen lying against some railings, and the two prisoners and two other men standing there—I ran up and told them it was no use their going away—Allen said that he had been assaulted and robbed of 7s. or 8s.—I asked him who assaulted him—he pointed out the two prisoners—they said that they only went to pick him up—I took them to the station—Moy said that if he got six months for this when he came

out he would do for Allen—I only found a latch key on them—when I got up Carroll was bareheaded and his hat was in the road.

Cross-examined by Carroll. You did not say "I have just picked up this man, and am looking for my hat," but when you were accused of the robbery you said that you only went to pick him up.

Re-examined. Allen had been drinking, but knew what he was doing—he had had a blow and had a great lump on his head, which might have stunned him—he walked steadily to the station without assistance—the other two men went away.

ALFRED NOAKES (Policeman S 418). I was with Carraher, heard cries, and saw Allen leaning up against something, and the two prisoners with him—he said he had been knocked down and robbed—he was asked by whom; he pointed to the two prisoners—they said they only went to pick him up—there was another man there, but he went away—I took Carroll to the station, and found on him two sixpences, a halfpenny, and a match box.

Cross-examined by Carroll. You did not look for your hat till after I came round the corner—you said that you had picked the man up—he had been drinking, but he was sensible; he knew what he was doing.

Carroll's Defence. I was having a cup of coffee at the stall, and saw the man lying by the side of the kerb. I put down the coffee and said to my friend, "Come and pick this man up"—my hat fell off, and as I was looking for it the policeman came up, and I told him I had just picked up the man who had been knocked down.

NOT GUILTY .

Reference Number: t18871212-138

138. PATRICK CARROLL and CHARLES MOY were again indicted for assaulting Timothy Allen, with intent to do him grievous bodily harm.

MR. PARKS offered no evidence.

NOT GUILTY .

NEW COURT.—Thursday, December 15th, 1887.

Before Mr. Recorder.

Reference Number: t18871212-139

139. FREDERICK JAMES HILTON, Forging and uttering an order for the payment of 4l. 3s. 4d. with intent to defraud.

MR. BESLEY, for the Prosecution, offered no evidence.

NOT GUILTY .

For the ease of Whitehouse and others, see Surrey Cases.

THIRD COURT.—Thursday, December 15th, 1887.

Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

Reference Number: t18871212-140

140. RUDOLPH KOTCHER(19) and THOMAS FOX(23) , Stealing a coat, pipe, and tobacco pouch, of William Poole, and a coat, pipe, and tobacco pouch, of Frederick Barton Fisher , to which KOTCHER PLEADED GUILTY . He also PLEADED GUILTY* to a previous conviction at this Court in 1880.

MR. METCALFE Prosecuted.

FREDERICK BARTON FISHER . I am market manager to Messrs. Lamb and Fraser, tea brokers, of 39, Mincing Lane—on 5th December, at 10

o'clock, I hung up my coat in the sale room on the first floor, and I saw it there at a quarter-past 12, and at 1.30 I missed it—I afterwards went with the detective to the pawnbrokers, and saw it there—this is it (produced).

WILLIAM POOLE . I am clerk to Messrs. Lamb and Fraser—on 5th December, at 12.30, I left my overcoat hanging up in the sale room, and at 1 o'clock I missed it—there was a pipe and pouch, and a pair of gloves in the pockets—I have not seen the coat since, but this is the pipe and pouch (produced).

FRANK ENDINE . I am a sampler in the employ of Messrs. Lamb and Fraser—at 1.30, on 5th December, Kotcher came to the sale room door and asked for the name of Wilson—I did not notice anybody with him—I was then sent out with a letter, and saw Kotcher and another man on the stairs—I am quite unable to say who that other man was, but he was wearing a brown coat, and was about the same height as Fox—they were comparing a paper with a letter—when I came back in half an hour the coats were gone—nobody was left in the saleroom when I came out.

Cross-examined by Fox. I left the office at a quarter to 1, and stayed out about 10 minutes—it was half-past 2 when Mr. Lamb and I followed you—we overtook you at a public-house in Hart Street, Crutched Friars—you parted there, and stood still—I don't remember anybody saying, going to the station, "That is all right."

Re-examined. I saw the two prisoners taken in custody—they were walking together down Hart Street.

ALFRED BROUGHTON LAMB . I am a tea broker of 39, Mincing Lane—I followed Endine when he went out with the letter, and saw these two men at the bottom of the stairs going up to the next floor—to the best of my belief the prisoners are the men I saw—nobody was left in the sale-room when I left it, but there was some one in the office adjoining.

Cross-examined. Nobody came out of the office after me—Mr. Fisher reported the loss at the police-station about half-past 2, and within a few minutes after that the detective came and said something to me, and we went out, and the detective took you just outside Mark Lane—I then asked Endine if he was sure of the man who asked for Wilson, and he said "The one on the right hand"—I gave an exact description of you, and you had a coat on then the same as you have now.

JOSEPH JONES , I am a pawnbroker, of 31, Church Street, Spitalfields—I produce an overcoat pledged with me on 5th December, at 2 p.m., by Kotcher—he was alone—this (produced) is the ticket. (Pawned for 10s. in the name of Charles Smith, 14, Sun Street.) I made, the usual inquiries of him as to whether it was his own property, and tie said "Yes," but he was short of money.

RICHARD CUSTODAN (City Policeman 730). On 5th December, at 3 in the afternoon, I saw Kotcher, and then in Hart Street I saw the two prisoners together—I left Murphy while I went back to Mincing Lane to fetch Mr. Lamb—on the Tuesday and Friday previously I had seen them together—I had had a description of Fox and Kotcher given to me by Mr. Lamb—I then took Fox in custody, and said "You will be charged with the other man with stealing two coats from 39, Mincing Lane"—he said he knew nothing about it—in the muster room at the station Kotcher dropped these three keys—they put one of these in to feel the lever, and then put another one in and shoot the bolt, but if it is against a hard

lock one of them will open the door—Kotcher also handed me this pipe and pouch in the presence of Fox, and said "This pipe and pouch I took from the pockets of the old coat, and this pipe from the pocket of the new coat"—he also said he met a friend of his who he had slept with the night before, and as the old coat was not worth pawning, he gave it to him to sell for a few pence—Fox did not say anything to this—Kotcher also handed this pawnticket to Murphy—I found on Fox this sack and two brushes (produced). and this screw, and on Kotcher this thing, which is to fasten the screw with—they are for the purpose of fastening the door inside to prevent being surprised—I also found on Kotcher this pair of gloves, which have since been identified as having been taken from a coat which was stolen in Mincing Lane.

JAMES MURPHY (City Policeman 853). I took Kotcher, and he gave me this, ticket relating to the coat.

Fox, in his Statement before the Magistrate and in his defence, stated that he met Kotcher in Fenchurch Street, and asked him if he could show him two or three German merchants who would give him a letter of recommendation to a German society; that he said he would, and that he took him to two or three houses, but he could not get a letter; that he then, took him to a very large building in Mincing Lane, and that the detective then took him for stealing two coats, but that he knew nothing about them.

Witnesses for Fox.

FRANK TILLEY . I am a baker at 22, Buckle Street, Whitechapel, but I am out of employment just now—I met Fox on 5th December, about 20 minutes or a quarter to 11 in the morning, close to the Man-in-the-Moon public-house at the corner of Buckle Street, Whitechapel—we went inside and had a drink, and he stayed there with me about three hours—he left me about five or ten minutes to 2.

Cross-examined. I don't know Kotcher—he did not give me a coat on that day, nor did anybody else—Fox was drinking partly at my expense—Monday is the day that journeymen bakers meet together, and they give one another a drink—it is usual for me to go out about II, and I know it was very nearly 3 when I was by the People's Palace in Mile End Road—I don't know where Fox went when he left me, and I knew nothing about his being taken in custody until I received a letter from him on Friday last—he did not know my name and address—it took me about half hour to walk from Buckle Street to the Mile End Road.

By the JURY. I have known the prisoner since last July twelvemonths—I believe he has employment in London—he is not a baker.

OTTO SCHA (Interpreted). I am a carver, of 22, Buckle Street—on 5th December, about 11 o'clock I met Fox in a public-house, which is next door to a man named Moonshine—he went out about 2 o'clock, nobody was with him then.

Cross-examined. I was several times in that public-house, but first at 10 o'clock—I saw Fox there about a quarter to 11, he left about 2, but I am not sure whether he left the public-house first or whether I did—he did not go out while I was there—just before 11 o'clock I left the public-house and went to Moonshine about some work; I was away about 10 minutes, and when I returned I found him still there—I do not know Kotcher, I have known Fox since September last, I don't know what he is.

FRANK TILLEY (Re-examined by the COURT). I saw the last witness at the public-house on 5th December.

GUILTY .— Ten Months' Hard Labour . KOTCHER— Fifteen Months' Hard labour.

Reference Number: t18871212-141

141. HENRY BRADFORD, JAMES SMALLLY , and ROBERT WHALES, Robbery with violence on James Henderson, and stealing a watch chain from his person.

MR. POYNTER Prosecuted; MR. KEITH FRITH defended Smalley, and MR. PURCELL appeared for Whales.

JAMES HENDERSON . I am a journalist, of 45, Clarence Road, Kentish Town—on 1st December, about 2.30 p.m., I was at the corner of Clarence Road coming from an omnibus and was making my way to my lodgings—I had a top-coat on, which was partially buttoned, and an umbrella in one hand and a bag in the other—I saw a great crowd and I was hurtled and knocked about by the crowd, and I found myself in the middle of the street with my top-coat torn open and my hat knocked over my eyes—a hand then snatched at my gold albert chain, but did not succeed in removing it—I was hustled again and tripped up, and then a hand forcibly got hold of my chain and tore it away—Smalley tripped me up—the other two prisoners were there then, but they did not do anything to me at that time—the party who snatched at my chain is not to be found—other snatches were also made, but I could not say whether it was by the same party—I could identify the party who took my chain but he has disappeared—before he disappeared he was in momentary contact with Whales and Smalley, he went up to them and Whales I believe took the chain—Whales also made a snatch at my watch—there was a very large crowd moving up the street, and as they moved I followed, calling out "Police!" and a man, who afterwards turned out to be a police officer in plain clothes, asked me if I had lost anything, and he followed up the crowd—I could not point out the individuals, but I afterward saw Whales and Smalley in the company of the officers—I never lost sight of them from the time this occurrence took place—I was not much hurt, but exceedingly knocked about—I was only down on the ground once, but nearly twice—this (produced) is my chain—I next saw it upon a desk at the police-station, before which the prisoners were.

Cross-examined by Bradford. I first saw you a little way from where the assault took place, and you were one of the persons who hustled me and prevented me from following—you did not knock me down, you pushed me, I believe you did it intentionally—I did not see you in the crowd before the chain was snatched, but afterwards I did.

Cross-examined by MR. KEITH FRITH. I see well enough, but I use spectacles at night and during the day—I had not got spectacles on at this time, I do not wear them in the street—this was all over in a few minutes—I am not near-sighted, but I wear spectacles at night when reading documents—I did not see the process of arresting—this was on the occasion of the funeral of a pugilist, and a very large crowd was going to the cemetery—I saw Smalley in the custody of the police between three and five minutes after my watch was stolen, and about 100 yards away from where it was stolen—I never lost sight of the man who was in contact with the man who took my chain—Smalley is the man also who tripped me up.

Cross-examined by MR. PURCELL. Several hundreds hustled round me—the funeral was coming up at the time—I am under the impression that Whales was one of them—I don't remember saying before the Magistrate "The first man who grasped my chain is not here; I think it was Whales who broke off my chain and took it"—I said what I believed to be accurate—I remember saying I believed Whales also snatched at—I said before the Magistrate "I followed Whales up; I lost sight of him some time in the crowd"—that is correct; the crowd closed occasionally, but still I could discern the man passing on—he was an absolute stranger to me—the crowd who hustled round me were mostly young men of the same description.

Re-examined. My sight is sufficiently good to distinguish people in the street—I have never been deceived—I had got my hat raised from my eyes before I was tripped up, and before the snatch at my chain.

WALTER GEORGE SPURRIER . I am an insurance agent, of 27, Lime Street, Camden Town—on 1st December, about 2.30 p.m., I saw Mr. Henderson coming from the middle of the road on to the pavement, and saw Smalley knock his hat over his eyes; the prosecutor then struggled with Whales and two or three others—I then saw another man not in custody snatch his chain—his hat did not remain over his eyes a second—I saw his umbrella up, and I suppose he was adjusting his hat with it—I saw the chain in the other man's hand, and directly he got it he ran away up Clarence Buildings—I ran after him and caught him, and another man who got away then came up and struck me at the back of the head—I did not see a second snatch at the chain—Smalley then ran up to me and lifted his stick, and called on me to let the man go and when I let him go I saw him pass the chain on to Whales—I followed Whales into the Kentish Town Road, and Smalley then attempted to strike me with the stick again; he said "What the b—hell do you want?" and Whales said "That is him; hit him"—I still followed him until I got to the Castle in Kentish Town, and I then saw a police sergeant coming up the road, and ran over and made a communication to him—we then went after them, and he spoke to a police officer in plain clothes, and I pointed Smalley out, and he was taken by the detective, and the other police officer took Whales—Bradford then came up and put his leg in front of me and said "What the b—h—are you doing?"—I turned to the sergeant and said "This man is trying to throw me down; I suppose that is another of Them"—I had previously seen Bradford in the crowd before I saw the sergeant, and as I passed him I said "These men have got a watch and chain"—he said "A b—good job too, and I hope they may get another one."

Cross-examined by Bradford, You did not say "It is nothing to do with me if they get two more;" you said what I said just now—I saw you between the Clarence Road and the Castle.

Cross-examined by MR. KEITH FRITH. I was struck behind the ear, but I was not stunned; it was rather a severe blow—Smalley then came up and attempted to strike me—this was the funeral of a pugilist, and there were a lot of roughs there—I did not see any hats knocked off, only in one case.

Cross-examined by MR. PURCELL. I was on the opposite side of the road when the old gentleman was surrounded by the people—there were five or six surrounding him, not 40; there were about 40 people about

there—the people were between me and the prosecutor—the man who snatched his chain had his back towards me—I did not see Whales make a snatch at the chain; I must have seen him if he had—I did not describe Whales to the policeman as the man with the green coat on; I did not describe him at ail; I said "Take that man in custody with the green coat"—there were several green coats amongst the procession—the man to whom the chain was passed had his face turned towards me he was not three yards from me—they could see me following them.

Re-examined. The man with the green coat was the man in whose hand I had seen the chain.

THOMAS GRIFFEN (Policeman Y 559). About 2.30 on this afternoon I was at a point close to the top of Great College Street, and heard cries of "Murder" and "Stop thief"—I saw a great crowd coming towards me, and could hear them crying "Stop thief"—I could not discern them, so I took up the chase amongst the crowd, and as I was running in the centre of the road I heard one of the crowd say, "He will get away now; he knows his way about here"—I then saw Smalley turn into Bartholemew Road, which is a turning at right angles with Kentish Town Road—I ran after him, and he then turned back into Kentish Town Road, and ran up against a shop window and faced me, and said "What the b—hell do you want?"—I said "l am a police officer," and I went towards him to take him in custody—he said "Well, b—well take that," but I put up my arm, and it struck me across the arm, and bent the brim of my hat; I then caught hold of him, and took the stick away—the mob then hustled me against the window, and shouted "Let him go," but in a moment two uniform officers came up, and I handed Smalley over to them—they had not gone but a few yards when Spurrier came up and pointed out Whale to me, and I took him in custody—he said "You have made a mistake"—a policeman then took him to Kentish Town Police-station, and I was there when he was charged at the same time as Smalley and Bradford—I did not find the chain—I went out to look for Spurrier, and on returning I saw the sergeant find the chain.

Cross-examined by MR. KEITH FRITH. There were about 200 people in the procession at that part of the street that I am speaking of—there were a good many sticks there, and horseplay was going on during the procession—I did not see the robbery committed.

Cross-examined by MR. PURCELL. When Whales was pointed out to me, Spurrier said "That man coming along in the green coat has got the property"—Whales was then coming towards me, but I don't think he could see Spurrier talking to me, because there was a large mob between us; he was about six yards off when he was pointed out to me by Spurrier—I went up to him, and said "I am a police officer; I shall take you in custody for being concerned with the other man"—he said "You have made a mistake"—I am quite certain he did not say anything else—I don't recollect saying before the Magistrate, "The last witness came up and pointed out Whales to me; I took him in custody; he said 'What are you doing of?'"—I know he said "You have made a mistake"—I took a note of' this, but I have not got it here—it would not be correct to say he was close to any of the other prisoners.

THOMAS KEELER (Policeman Y R 5). At 2.30 on this afternoon I was accompanying a procession of people at a funeral—I was in advance of the funeral, and when I was about 150 yards this side of Clarence Road

I saw a scuffling in the road, and saw a gentleman apparently knocked down—I ran towards him, and heard cries of "Stop thief! Police!"—I ran on in the road, and my attention was then called by Spurrier to the three prisoners—I saw Griffin standing at the corner of the street, and as I was running I called his attention—I then saw Bradford running in the road just behind the other two and near to Spurrier, and I saw him put his foot in front of Spurrier, which appeared to trip him up, and he almost fell down—it looked to me to have been done on purpose—I then got up to him, and Spurrier called my attention to him, and I caught hold of him, and took him to the station—he did not go there quietly; he refused to go—when I got to the station I found the other two prisoners there—Whales was leaning on the desk, and Smalley was standing in the dock, and when I went in the room he made back—I then took Bradford in, and he stood in the place where Whale had moved from—about ten minutes afterwards I saw something shining on the desk—there was a book lying on the desk, and I saw this locket lying on it, and the chain was lying down between the book and the back of the desk—this bar of the chain was found next day on the spot where the robbery had taken place, and was offered in pledge next day in Kentish Town, but the pawnbroker gave information, and we obtained possession of it—when I took Bradford he said he should not go to the station; he had nothing to do with it, and he called on the persons around—I said "You must, and if you are not guilty it is all the better," and when I got to the station he was pointed out by the prosecutor as being one of the men who had assaulted him.

Cross-examined by Bradford, You did not say you had a witness to prove you were not in the road.

Cross-examined by MR. PURCELL. I could not say where the chain was when Whales moved away, but my belief is it was not there then, because I stood there 10 minutes—I was present when the charge was made—Whales gave a correct address, and he has never been convicted of any felony that I know of—we have made inquiries, and find no convictions against him.

Bradford in his statement before the Magistrate and in his defence stated that he was quite innocent of this charge; that he went to see what was the matter, and accidentally trod on spurrier's heel, and that he did not put the chain on the desk.

Witness for Bradford,

JOHN WILLIAMS . I am a painter, of 4, Edward Street, Barnsbury Road—I saw you in the crowd with the funeral; you were with the chaps at the robbery—I did not see you make a snatch at the chain—they have not got the man who done that—I did not see you have any hand in this affair at all—I did not see you try to throw Spurrier down—you trod on his heel accidentally—I think you looked to see what man was taken in custody, and happened to tread on Spurrier's heel—you had got your hands in your pocket, and a short pipe in your mouth—I did not see you doing anything to be locked up for.

By the COURT. Smalley hit the gentleman with the stick—I ran after the man who had the chain, but he got into a four-wheeled cab, and it went off before I could get to it, but I should know the cab again.

By the JURY. The three prisoners are all strangers to me—I was following this procession.

GUILTY . BRADFORD then PLEADED GUILTY**†to a conviction of felony at Marylebone in March, 1881.— Twelve Months' Hard Labour . SMALLEY— Ten Months' Hard Labour . WHALES— Eight Months' Hard Labour.

OLD COURT.—Friday, December 16th, 1887.

Before Mr. Justice Stephen.

Reference Number: t18871212-142

142. CHARLES EDWARD HAMMOND(22) was indicted for the wilful murder of John Brown. He was also charged on the Coroner's Inquisition with the manslaughter of the same person.

MR. POLAND Prosecuted; MESSRS. GILL and BLACKBURN Defended.

HONORA COTTON . I live at 8, Artichoke Hill, St. George's-in-the-East—on Saturday night, 5th November, I was in the Neptune public-house with Brown, Vega, and several other Spaniards—they were strangers to me—we left at closing time, 12 o'clock—there had been no disturbance there—we all three went through Neptune Street and stopped outside the Sailors' Home—Vega went in there and came out again and joined us—we then went and stood at the corner of Well Street for a few moments—whilst standing there a Spaniard came up and said something which I did not understand—I asked Brown what he said, and he said there was a row—I told Brown not to interfere, he said "No, Norah;" then we saw a Spaniard come up in the middle of the road bleeding from the head; he stooped and bathed his head in a puddle of dirty water; Brown walked to him and spoke to him in Spanish—Vega was with me—I screamed when I saw the blood—as Brown was stooping over the wounded Spaniard the prisoner came up from towards Neptune Street with a knife and stabbed Brown in the right side, by the thigh—I screamed at him, and he closed the knife up—I could not say whether he struck more than one blow—I screamed at him and said "You have done it"—he went away—Brown came back limping to me and fell at my feet on his face—I saw he was bleeding—he said "Oh, Honora, look what they have done"—a crowd came up and gathered round the wounded Spaniard—I saw the prisoner in the crowd—I could see his face and the cap he wore, it was a cap with two flaps tied together over his ears, and a peak—I have no doubt whatever about him—at the time I saw the stab there was no one else near the wounded Spaniard; no one was with me but Vega—Maggie was at the public-house, but she had left us—when the police came up I told them if they would come round the crowd I would show him the man that had done it, but he did not come—I believe Pantin was the name of the wounded Spaniard; he was afterwards taken in custody and was discharged by the Magistrate—Brown was taken to the hospital—I afterwards saw his dead body—I gave a description of the man who had done this to a man at the station, an interpreter I believe it was—on the Sunday and Monday I looked about to see if I could find the man, and on the Tuesday night about a quarter to 12 o'clock I saw the prisoner in the Artichoke—I recognised him, and he recognised me, and I saw him take a knife and open it and put it up his sleeve—I called Maggie and ran towards the corner of Princes Square, and the prisoner walked on the other side of the road—I went over to a young man named Harry Chesterton, who I knew, who was standing at the corner; I spoke to him—I then saw the prisoner run over to where I was; I screened

myself behind Chesterton and the prisoner ran up Princes Square, where he was caught—Chesterton ran after him; I fainted and was taken away—I afterwards saw the prisoner in custody—he had on the same, cap on the Tuesday night when he was in the Artichoke as he had on the Saturday night; when he was in custody he had no cap—I don't know what had become of it.

Cross-examined. Maggie and I went out together on this night about 9 o'clock, and went to the Cat and Neptune—I was sometimes up in the dance-room, and sometimes in the bar—it is a house to which a great many sailors go, and there were a large number of Spaniards in the neighbourhood and stopping at the Sailors' Home—I never spoke to any of them before—we were drinking with several of them at the bar for nearly an hour, the Spaniards paid for it—we all came out together—Vega asked Brown for my address and if I would go with him, and I said yes—he went to the Sailors' Home to ask if he could stay out for a few moments, he did not ask to stop out all night—we went to the corner of St. George's Street, and were standing there about 10 minutes when the first Spaniard came along—he seemed to run—he went up Well Street—I did not notice whether he had a knife in his hand—I don't know his name—Pantin was the second Spaniard—Vega was there when the stab was given, and when I screamed he seemed to take me to him—he was near enough to see what happened. (GEORGE BITTEN, Police Sergeant H 23, here produced and proved a plan of the neighbourhood.) There is a dock gate nearly opposite where we were standing—the prisoner came from the direction of Neptune Street, and gave the stab in this manner (describing it)—he was between me and Brown; I saw him sideways, and he stood up after giving the blow—Vega let me go as the crowd came up—I did not hear then that Driscol had been stabbed; I did not see Driscol—I saw the prisoner standing in the crowd that came up, looking on—I did not notice whether he was drunk or sober, I was excited—he walked away—he did not seem to make any haste—I saw some Spanish officers at the station; I told the interpreter that they were not the men that did it—I had never seen the prisoner before this night.

ANTONIO VEGA (Interpreted). I am a seaman in the Royal Spanish Navy—on Saturday, 5th November. I was staying at the Sailors' Home in Well Street—about 10 o'clock that night I was at a public-house—I there saw Honora Cotton and Brown; I did not know them before—Brown could speak English—we all three left together about 12 o'clock—I and another sailor went to the Sailors' Home; I came out again, and I, Brown, and Honora were all three together—we went down the street, I saw a Spanish sailor, he went to one of the petty officers and said there was a row somewhere in the street—his name was Ricardo Paz; he was running—after that I saw a Spanish sailor come up bleeding from his head; he was washing his head with some water in the street—a lot of people came up, and Brown said "I am killed"—the wounded Spaniard was then lying in the road, and Brown was stooping over him—I did not see anybody strike Brown, I ran away—I can't speak to the prisoner—a crowd was there—Honora screamed and fainted or swooned, I lifted her up and held her—I remained there for a few minutes and then went away—I did not come back—I was taken into custody that night, and four other Spaniards also, Pantin among them—I was afterwards discharged.

MR. JUSTICE STEPHEN considered that it was impossible to convict the prisoner upon this contradictory evidence. The Jury concurring, found the prisoner

NOT GUILTY .

Reference Number: t18871212-143

143. SEERANO LOPEZ FERNANDEZ was indicted for feloniously wounding Timothy Driscol, with intent to do him grievous bodily harm.

MR. POLAND Prosecuted; MR. LOWE Defended.

The circumstances of this case occurred on the same occasion as in the last, with similar obscurity and contradiction; one witness positively asserting that the wound in question was not inflicted by the prisoner, and another that the prisoner was the person who inflicted the injury on Brown in the former case. The Jury, under the direction of MR. JUSTICE STEPHEN, found the prisoner

NOT GUILTY .

THIRD COURT.—Friday, December 16th, 1887.

Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

Reference Number: t18871212-144

144. ALFRED MEDLICOTT(33) and JOHN TAME (), Unlawfully obtaining, by false pretences, from Adolphus May, 45l., with intent to defraud.

MESSRS POLAND, MEAD, and PARTRIDGE Prosecuted; MESSRS. POLEY and FIRMINGER defended Medlicott.

ADOLPHUS MAY . I am a traveller, of 14, Bishop's Road, South Hackney—in September last I saw this advertisement in the Daily Telegraph: "Traveller. Wanted a gentleman to call on an established connection. Proprietor's own round. Knowledge of trade not absolutely necessary, but applicant must be of good address. Horse and trap found to suitable party who would study employer's interests. Salary and commission, 3l. a week. Applicants must be able to invest cash security of 100l. Address," &c.—I applied and received a reply, signed "Ross and Co.," which I have searched for, but cannot find—it was addressed from the Pied Bull Granaries, and stated I had omitted to mention whether I was prepared to invest 100l. cash—I called the following morning, 20th September, at 172, Holloway Road—I saw the prisoners, and said "I have called upon you in answer to a letter I received last night. I am not in a position to place 100l. as security with you. I will hand 50l. to you, and work 12 months for 2l. a week and commission, instead of 3l. a-week and commission, which will leave you of the other 50l. at the end of the year'—they considered for a few moments, and Medlicott turned round to Tame and said, "Well, Tame, what do you think? I like Mr. May's appearance. Shall we take him?"—Tame said "Well, I don't know. I think we might as well"—Tame took off a file two or three pieces of paper which I could not read, saying they were large contracts for supplying forage, &c.—then Medlicott said "We have had to give up the travelling on account of having so much work to do; it is necessary that we should remain indoors to attend to the orders," and that was the reason they engaged a traveller—I said

"I have 45l. which I will place with you now," and Medlicott immediatly went to his clerk, and had a receipt written out for it"—I said "I will try and get the other 5l.; I have only got enough to keep my wife and family for the week until I am earning money"—that was all the money I had in the world—Medlicott proposed that the money should be placed in the business, for which they would give me five per cent.—I said "I object to place the money in the business but if you will place it in a bank in our joint names I have no objection to leave it with you," so that neither party could touch it—Medlicott said "Yes, I will place it in a bank but you won't expect any percentage on your money"—I said "Certainly not"—I said "Why do you want this Money?"—I said "Because you will collect bills for us"—the money was to be paid in on the following Thursday—I paid him the money, and this is the receipt, signed "G. Ross and Co."(produced)—I left, and was to go to work on 3rd October—I returned in the afternoon and saw Medlicott, and told him I did not feel safe about my money—he said "Oh, it's all right; we have a large business; your money is quite safe"—we then arranged that I should commence work on the 26th September instead of of 3rd October—I accordingly went at 9.30, when they packed a bag of samples for me, and gave me a list of customers to call upon—I asked Medlicott when he would go to the bank, and he said the following Thursday—I worked for them Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday, and met with little success—no customers seemed to know Them as being in business for themselves, but there were a few who knew Medlicott as traveling for some firm—I worked on to end of the week, and got about 10l. worth of orders—I called on the Thursday morning as usual for my list of customers, and said to Medlicott, "Are you going to the bank to-day?"—he said "No I am too busy; I can't go"—he turned to Tame, and said "Can't you go to the bank with Mr. May?" and he said no he was too busy—I said "When are you going to put the money in the bank?" and he said "Oh, we will do it next week"—on Saturday Medlicott said he would be back at 1 o'clock to pay me—I was there till 7, when I got my 2l. salary and commission of 4s. or 5s.—I observed a stranger in the place, and on inquiry I found it was a Sheriff's officer—I said to Medlicott "What is a Sheriff's officer doing here?"—he said "It has nothing to do with our business; Mr. Tame's father has put him in to keep other people out"—I went down the following Monday and returned my samples, and asked for my money, and said if he did not return it to me I should take proceedings against them—Medlicott said "I cannot give you the money; I have not got it, but I will pay it by instalments if you wish it"—I said "What instalments will you give me?"—he said "I can give you 10s. a week"—I said "That won't do; I have a wife and family who are simply starving; I must have the money back"—he said he could not pay me back the money, and I threatened him with legal proceedings—he told me then, as he had told me before, that if I prosecuted him I should get nothing at all—I was thoroughly destitute then, and living on charity—I got back 2l. 6s. in different amounts—I waited four weeks, and then laid an information before the Magistrate at Clerkenwell Police-court, and they were taken into custody on 3rd November and charged.

Cross-examined by MR. POLEY. I had not been in the trade before—I have been out of employment for some time—I was employed in travelling in Plymouth for about two months; before that I did nothing for eight or nine months—ten months previously to that I came from India—I have had experience as master of a ship, in chartering my own steamer, and so on, which gave me an idea of mercantile work—I have not had experience in selling goods—I insisted on beginning work a week earlier because I could not afford to wait doing nothing, they having my money—the place had the ordinary appearance of a granary, and had the appearance of business—there was a clerk in the office receiving 10s. a week—I don't know what rent they paid—they did not decline my offer of 50l., I taking 2l. a week instead of 3l—I paid the money as a guarantee of my fidelity, and on the understanding that it was to be put in the bank in our joint names—I cannot say whether such an arrangement would defeat their object—I think my commission was 10 per cent and 5s. a week for travelling expenses in lieu of horse and trap, the horse being supposed to be sick—an agreement was to be drawn up at the time of paying in—I never saw the horse and trap; there was a horse there but not a gig horse—I found little or nothing there on the Saturday—there was a machine of some sort there but I never saw it working—I was there every morning, and sometimes in the evening—I saw a cert there; I don't know what it was used for, I never saw it loaded—I don't know that they kept two vans and horses—it was not on the Friday previous to Monday, the 26th, that I first mentioned paying the money into the bank in our joint names—I am certain the first occasion was on the 20th—I thought I was dealing with an honest man—I thought the receipt enough to hold him to his word—the contracts they referred to they called Government contracts, not railway contracts—I called on about 16 customers on the Monday at Tottenham, Wood Green, and Stamford Hill—I got an order from Garraway—I am not sure whether I called on Waddington—I returned the book to the prisoners when I returned my samples—I can't remember the names at the customers, it is so long ago—on the Tuesday I called on other customers in the same district—I called on about 100 corn and hay people in the week—I could take you to them, but do not remember the locality—I know it was under 10l. worth of orders that I took—on the following Monday I refused to go on with my work because I could not get my money back—there was no agreement to return the money—Medlicott did not tell me he was temporarily pressed but hoped to tide over his difficulties—he offered me 10s. a week, which I said I could not accept—he paid me 2l. 6s. in different sums, during which my wife and children were starving and living on charity—he gave me some rice and a fowl—I saw him with a gold chain; I had to pawn mine—I gave him three or four weeks before I applied for a warrant—I have not been round to the customers since—I do not know that Medlicott had 100l. due to him—the customers did not know him as carrying on business for himself, but they knew him as a traveller—he told me he had been in business—I can tell you from the list those who did not know "Ross and Co."—Brett of Clapton, Bailey of Upper Clapton, and Gibson or Joslin of Essex Road did not know the name—the list of articles had the name of Boss and Co. on it.

Cross-examined by Tame. You wore sitting on the desk when I handed

Medlicott the money—you did not mention the London and County Bank.

Re-examined. I did not know what bank theirs was, but they led me to believe it was somewhere in Westminster—I was for seven years a ship's master, not the owner—the 50l. was part of my savings while I was at sea, and I was in India for 12 years—I found Thompson, of 47, Copenhagen Street, instead of being a forage dealer, was a tailor—it was some days before I found his name was Medlicott—I believe my wife is here—I am now looking after a ship—I did not go to Reading to find if they had a brunch, business there.

AUGUSTUS FREDERICK OUTRAM . I am accountant at the Pentonville Branch of the London and County Bank—the prisoners were customers, on 29th March in the name of Ross and Co.—the balance was then 3l. 6s. 8d.—the account has not been operated on since—our charges are 17s. 6d., leaving a balance of 2l. 11s.

Cross-examined by MR. POLEY. The account commenced on 30th July, 1886, 150l., the balance at the end of 1886 was 119l. 2s. 11d., the turnover was about 1,100l.

Re-examined. I don't know where the 150l. came from.

LOUISA MAY . I am the wife of Adolphus May—in consequence of a communication made to me by him as to Ross and Co., I went to see the prisoners several times about the money, which was mine—I got 7s. on one occasion—I asked them why they did not return our money—Medlicott said "We paid away 17l. of it ten minutes after your husband gave it to us to pay for some boots that were lying in the doorway he came in by"—he promised we should have it—he said he had got no money—my husband discovered a Sheriff's officer in possession on Saturday, 1st October; I told Medlicott we had not a farthing in the house, nor had we at that time; that was the 22nd October—I made him kill me a fowl, as I had nothing for my children; he gave me some rice, Tame gave me part of the 7s.—they said they began without capital, and that if my husband had given them the money they wanted at first they would not have been in that strait—I told them we were starving, and had parted with everything, and they said they were in the same condition.

Cross-examined by MR. POLEY. I went on the premises; I did not see crushing implements there, they had not a light—I don't know whether they expressed themselves sorry for what had occurred, I was too excited—I told them I had come for my money which my father had left me—it was in reply to my inquiry why they did not pay the money into the bank—when they said they paid it away ten minutes after I said "Why did you not give it to my husband when he went back a quarter of an hour afterwards'"—I did not give this evidence at the police-court; no one asked me—I went there every day; I did not break into the premises, but I told them I would—I was leaning against the wall outside, and would have stayed there till 12 o'clock to see them—we had not anything in our house to eat.

----TARGET (Detective Sergeant Y). I received a warrant for the arrest of the prisoners, and met Medlicott on the 3rd November at Highbury Corner, Holloway Road—I said "Good morning, I have a warrant for your arrest"—he said "What case is it?"—I said "For obtaining 45l. from a man named May; have you seen Tame?"—he said "Yes, I am going to meet him here in a few minutes"—I said "Very

well, I will wait"—I waited there with him, and we saw Tame coming down the road—I placed Medlicott in a cab with another officer—Tame came up—I told him I had a warrant for his arrest, and I took him into the cab and read the warrant to him—Tame said nothing—Medlicott said "It is a false warrant, I paid him back 10s. of the amount"—they were taken to the station and charged—I went to the Pied Bull Granaries and took possession of the books, which I gave to Mr. Wontner—I found a diamond ring on Tame worth I should say about 18l., 9s. in silver and 4d. in bronze—on Medlicott I found 14s. 6d. in silver, 2d. in bronze, a post-office order, a silver watch and brass chain—I went down to Reading and inquired at the police-station and post-office, but did not find any busmen of the prisoners' there.

Cross-examined by MR. POLEY. I believe Medlicott was in partnership with another man named Hancock in the Roman Road—he afterwards carried on business at Pied Bull Yard, Holloway Road, and then removed to Pied Bull Granaries, for which they paid 2l. a week rent—I went to the Granaries with Inspector Dodd—I got these books from James's father at 172, Holloway Road. (A bought journal, ledger, and larger ledger, produced)—I did not look through all the papers—I did not go to any of the people in these lists—I don't know what was on the premises before—I don't know what the Sheriff's officer took away—I saw a cart in Pied Bull Yard with "Ross and Co." upon it—I am not sure about the name being on the stables—there were no horses or traps—I went to Sulhampstead, near Reading, and found that Tame's father had lived there and farmed 50 or 60 acres.

Medlicott received a good character from hit solicitor's managing clerk.

Tame in his defence said he was not in partnership with Medlicott, and that he was not in the office when May paid over his money, and that he bought forage of a man in Bethnal Green Road in his own name during the time Medicott represented him as his partner.

GUILTY . Tame then PLEADED GUILTY to a conviction of felony at the Quarter Sessions, Great Yarmouth, on the 13th October, 1884.— Fifteen Months' Hard Labour. Tame was ordered to pay the costs of the prosecution.

OLD COURT.—Saturday, December 17th, 1887.

Before Mr. Justice Stephen.

Reference Number: t18871212-145

145. GEORGE HARRISON, Feloniously wounding William Williamson, with intent to disable. Second Count, with intent to do grievous bodily harm.

MESSRS. POLAND and MEAD Prosecuted; MESSRS. THOMPSON and BARLING

Defended.

WILLIAM WILLIAMSON (Police Sergeant L). On Sunday afternoon, 13th November, I was on duty in Bridge Street—I headed a procession coming across Westminster Bridge, which was stopped at the end of Parliament Street—I was not there for the purpose of dispersing the crowd; my duty was to detect thieves—a struggle was taking place—I had not seen that the police had drawn their truncheons; they might have done; I had none, being in plain clothes—I saw a constable in uniform knocked down about two or three yards from the pavement; his helmet came off—seeing that he looked very white, I went to assist him, to pick him up,

also his helmet; I picked it up—just as I got him on his feet I received a terrific from behind on the right ear; I staggered round, and caught hold of Sergeant Ward as I was falling, and I saw the prisoner run away—I then became unconscious—I lost a great deal of blood—the blow split my ear in two, and also grazed the back of the head just on the bone—I did not see the prisoner afterwards—I was taken to Scotland Yard by other officers, and was attended by Dr. Farr, the divisional surgeon—that was at half-past six—I was about a fortnight under medical treatment—I could not give up duty; I was so busy, I had a long firm case in hand, which is now here in the Court, and I was obliged to go on with that.

Cross-examined. There was a deal of confusion going on at this time, but not where I stood—I was on the outside of the mob; I was nearer Cannon Row, in the roadway, about three yards from the path—I have said on a former occasion "a disorderly mob of from 8,000 to 10,000 people passed over Westminster Bridge, many of them carrying sticks"—they did not approach the spot where I was standing; they passed me on the way to Parliament Street—the mounted men then started to disperse them, not till then—that was where the mounted police started breaking them up—I could not say the name or number of the constable I was assisting—before I had time to put his helmet on I fell to the ground—just as I was about to put his helmet on I received the blow, and I dropped the helmet and staggered round—I said at the police-court that I was about to put it on; it is not true to say that I put it on; I was about to do it. (The deposition stated) "I picked him up and put his helmet on.") I saw the prisoner leaving as I turned round, and as I got the man on his feet I had not time to see the constable's number or who he was—there were several policemen knocked down; they came from all parts—I am quite sure the prisoner is the man I saw running away; he had on a shabby light coat—I took him for a mason—I can't say that he was the only person I saw running away; they were running in all directions; a great many were running—there was a disorderly mob there—it was perhaps by instinct that I singled out the prisoner; he singled out me—I did not see who struck me—when I turned round I saw him running away; he had a roll of paper—I thought it was a parchment or something of that—he had some white paper in his hand—I did not say anything about the roll of paper at the police-court—I don't know why, two of the witnesses had deposed to it, I suppose that was the reason—he carried the roll of paper away with him as he ran—I had not much time to do anything, as soon as I staggered round I saw him leaving me; I became unconscious—I have known a man named Bevan since the proceedings at the police-court, not before—I did not search the prisoner at the station; he was not my prisoner.

ROGER HONEY (Police Sergeant M 19). On Sunday afternoon, 13th November, I was on duty in uniform in Kennington Road between a quarter and 10 minutes to four—I saw a procession there, a large number of people—I saw the prisoner in the front part of the procession, which started from the Blackfriars Road—I saw something in his hand, which appeared to be a roll of paper—I thought it might be something that he tad wrapped up that he was going to make a speech from—I also saw that he had something passed up underneath his waistcoat; the end of that was wrapped in paper—he left the procession; I can't say for what

purpose—I am quite sure he is the man I am speaking of—he returned in two or three minutes—there was a band, flags, and banners—the procession went on over Westminster Bridge, joined by other processions—I should say it consisted of about 3,000 persons altogether—I went on with them over the bridge and down Bridge Street; it was stopped at the end of Parliament Street—there was afterwards a very great confusion—I saw the prisoner in Bridge Street; he was rather more than halfway towards Westminster Bridge from Parliament Street—in Bridge Street I saw him run from the mob and deliver a blow at some person, and he turned and ran away—lie ran on To the pavement nearer Parliament Street, and stooped down to get in among the crowd—I ran after him and struck him across the back with my truncheon—he fell down, and I at once caught hold of him and took this weapon out of his right hand; it was then wrapped In paper—I was four or five yards away when I saw him strike the blow; he struck it with this weapon clearly—I did not see the person he struck—I had not lost sight of him from the time he struck the blow till I took him into custody—a constable assisted me, and he was taken to King Street Police-station.

Cross-examined. I escorted the procession from the Radical Club in Charles Street, Blackfriars Road, to Kennington Road—I should say there were about 150 people when I first saw the prisoner—my attention was attracted to the prisoner by his twisting the paper in a careless manner, and also that he had something underneath his waistcoast—I did not call it a weapon at the police-court—I said "I had previously seen the prisoner in Kennington Road with a pipe in paper in his hand, and another weapon under his waistcoat"—if I said just now that I did not say he had another weapon under his waistcoat I misunderstood your question—I did not know that it was a weapon, but I made use of that word at the police-court—I did not keep my eye upon him, I had no reason to do so; I could not watch one particular man on such an occasion as that—I did not notice whether other people in the crowd had weapons—there were some thousands of sticks there, I have no doubt; I cannot say about offensive weapons, I saw several walking-sticks—when I saw the prisoner in Bridge Street he ran from the mob—we were dispersing the mob, driving them back—I cannot say that the police were in a line, we were across the road, we were driving the people back at the time I saw the prisoner run from the crowd and make a blow, delivered, I believe, at some person; I was not able at the time to say who the person was—I followed the prisoner a very few yards before I arrested him, probably it might have been five or six yards—when I took the pipe from him it was still wrapped in paper—I did not know at that time that it was a pipe—I ran after him because I saw him commit an offence, and I considered it my duty to apprehend him—I sat him deliver a blow at some person; I did not see where the blow fell—I knew that a blow was given, from the fact that he made a running blow and turned and ran away—there was a great deal of confusion at the time, and a great number of persons were present—there were several other blows struck—I did not arrest any of them, because they were fighting against the police and we were fighting them back—several had their truncheon out.

Re-examined. It was about a quarter past 4 when I saw the prisoner

deliver this blow, it might have been a few minutes later, but I put it down about that time from the time we went over the bridge.

GEORGE HANLEY (Policeman L 280). I was in Bridge Street, Westminster, about a quarter past 4 on the afternoon of 13th November, on plain-clothes duty—I saw Sergeant Williamson there—I saw the prisoner strike him with the appearance of a paper parcel, on the right side of his head; it was a hard blow, and then he dropped an oyster knife out of his left hand; this (produced) is the knife; I picked it up—Williamson staggered; he wan assisting a constable at the time who had been knocked down—after Williamson was struck another plain-clothes officer took him away—seeing the prisoner drop this knife I hallowed out "Williamson, are you stabbed?" and I picked up the knife—I went after the prisoner, and he was in the custody of Sergeant Honey when I got to him; he was on the ground—I did not lose sight of the prisoner at all after he struck the blow till he was in custody—I helped to take him into custody.

Cross-examined. I did not see the prisoner make an effort to stab Williamson—I did not see this knife used at all—I had never seen the prisoner before—there was a great crowd and much contusion—I had not my truncheon out, some constables had—I do not know that orders had been given to take out truncheons—I was about two or three yards from Williamson when I saw the blow struck.

Re-examined. I was struck.

EDWARD DAY (Policeman L 166). I am now specially employed as a plain-clothes officer—on this Sunday afternoon I was on duty in Bridge street, Westminster, in plain clothes—Williamson was with me, also in plain clothes—about 4.15 I saw the prisoner in Bridge Street; I saw him run from the crowd and strike Williamson with Borne weapon; I noticed that he had something, I thought it was a roll of paper—it was a blow right under, like that (describing)—as soon as he did it he ran back to the crowd—Honey knocked him down, and he was taken into custody, and taken to King Street Station—Honey took from him the roll of paper, and it turned out to be this (a piece of iron piping)—almost immediately after the prisoner had been taken away I found this weapon, a kind of poker or bar, on the ground near the place; it was not wrapped in anything; it had this string to it—from the time the prisoner struck the blow until Honey took him I did not lose sight of him.

Cross-examined. I said at the station that I saw the prisoner strike Williamson with a weapon, I would not swear I did not say an iron weapon; it sounded solid, like a piece of wood—I found this weapon on the scene, and took it to the station—it was produced at the police-court—the prisoner ran from the direction of Parliament Street from the crowd.

HENRY MORRIS (Policeman L 306). On 19th November, about 4.15, I was in Bridge Street, Westminster, in plain clothes—I saw Sergeant Williamson there; I saw him assisting a constable up who had been knocked down, about three yards from the kerb of Cannon How—I saw the prisoner come up, rushing from the crowd in Parliament street, and strike him a heavy blow on the right ear with a weapon like this, wrapped up in paper—I saw Williamson put up his hand to his head and stagger—at that time there was a disorderly mob—I was knocked down—before that I saw the prisoner drop this knife from his left hand—I saw Hanley pick it up, and he called out "Is Williamson stabbed?"—I then

got a blow behind the neck, and was knocked down—I did not see the prisoner taken—about a quarter of au hour afterwards I went to King Street Station; I went at once to the cell—I saw the prisoner look me in the face, and I said "That is the man that struck Williamson"—I received a blow across my wrist, I thought it was broken.

Cross-examined. The constable who assisted was in uniform—the prisoner rushed from the crowd and struck Williamson across the ear as he was stooping; it looked to me as if it was a downward blow—the first evidence I gave in this case was at Bow Street on the third remand—I can't tell why I was not called before; I was there ready—I saw the assault, and went to the police court with others—the prisoner came from Parliament Street way with the rest of the crowd—I had no truncheon; I had a walking-stick—I was close to Hanley when I saw the prisoner drop the knife it was all done in a minute or two; I was getting blows myself—when, I went to the station there were a lot of constables there; there is no gaoler there; there was a reserve man—Hanley was with me—no one took me to the cell; I walked there myself—there is a little trap-door—I looked through, and said "That is the man that struck Williamson."

VICTOR BEVAN . I live at 8, Temple Street, St. George's Road—I am by trade a compositor—on Sunday afternoon, 13th November, I was in Bridge Street, Westminster—I was trying to get through Cannon Row into Parliament Street—I was not able to do so—I was blocked in by the crowd—there was a riot among the mob—they rushed towards me with the prisoner—he rushed close up against me—a man in front of me was endeavouring to get through—the prisoner pulled the man back, and I saw another man assisting another man up from the ground—I did not see anything in his hand then—he struck the constable in the ear with a piece of paper, I thought; I could, not tell what was in it—the constable put up his hand and reeled on one side, I turned round and said to a man "Good God, he has killed that man"—he was stooping to lift the constable up—I saw some man go up to Williamson—I did not see the prisoner taken into custody—I remained in the crowd about an hour, I think—I afterwards went to King Street Police-station; I was carried by the rush nearly close to it, and a man said "You had better go down to King Street and give evidence"—I saw Sergeant Boswell; and in consequence of what took place between us I went to the station about half-past 5—I there saw the prisoner standing in the dock—I did not pick him out from others; I recognised him—I said "That is the chap"—I have no doubt about his being the man—the policeman's ear was bleeding a bit.

Cross-examined. I have been known by the name of Whalley—I was known by that name as a member of the West Southwark Liberal Club—I was not expelled from that club till after I was in this case—I have been a member of a Conservative club; I was not expelled from that; I was called upon to resign if I did not pay up my subscription—I was out of work at the time, and I could not pay up—I am not a member of the Compositors' Society; I have been—I was not expelled from that; I ran out that means that I ran over a number of weeks' limit, through bad work—if you did not pay up in such a time you cease to be member, and I had to go to a non-society house to work; that was why I did not pay up my subscriptions—my name is Bevan Whalley; one name I was

christened in, and the other was my mother's name—I am not in the habit of visiting Kennington Lane Police-station—I have been there lately, getting my orders for the special constables—I am positive that the prisoner came from Parliament Street on this occasion, and not from Westminster Bridge Road—the man on the ground was a uniform man—I did not swear at the police-station that he was not in uniform I was a bit confused at the time; I corrected the mistake if I said so—the man the prisoner struck in the back was in plain clothes; that was not Williamson—he was endeavouring to get through—he fell on one side—it was not that man that Williamson was assisting; he was assisting a constable—the prisoner was in the dock at the station when I got there—Boswell told me to go to the station—I did not know the man was arrested till I saw Boswell a second time; that was in Bridge Street, near the station—I did not say that it was on the Embankment I saw him.

FRANCIS BOSWELL (Detective Sergeant L). On Sunday afternoon, 13th November, I was in Bridge Street—I saw Williamson there—I did not see him assaulted—I saw him after the assault in Bridge Street, a few yards away—he was bleeding profusely from the ear—he was cut; he was partly unconscious—I went to his assistance—I saw the witness Bevan, he spoke to me; that may have been two or three minutes after I went to Williamson's assistance—Williamson was assisted to the station—I did not go with him—later in the afternoon I saw Bevan, and told him to go to the station—I told him to go in the first place, but I met him again about a quarter-past 5 on the Surrey side of Westminster Bridge—I gave him that direction in consequence of what he said to me.

Cross-examined. I was not in uniform—I knew Bevan in common with a good many others that were there—I am known to two-thirds of the residents in Kennington—I was carried along with the rush with Bevan—he spoke to me—if I had seen him there it is. not likely I should have spoken—he spoke to me first—he came to me the second time; that was slightly on the Surrey side of the water, as far as I recollect—I cannot give in detail every little incident that took place, so many people spoke to me—it was about 300 yards from where the assault took place that he spoke to me, and he went with me to the station—where he first spoke to me I should imagine was under 120 yards from the station—that was about a quarter past 4, I think; I can't say for certain—it would have been simply impossible for him to get to the station within half an hour, carried about by the crowd as we were, I tried and could not.

FREDERICK WILLIAM FARR . On Sunday, 13th November, I was acting as divisional surgeon to the L Division of Police—about half-past 6 I saw Williamson at my surgery—he had a wound on the right ear about three quarters of an inch long—it had completely divided the ear—there was also a contused wound about an inch long at the top of the same ear; the ear was very much swollen—the wound was such as might have been inflicted by one blow from an instrument like that produced—he was under my care for about a fortnight—there was another wound behind the ear on the bone of the head; it was all done by one blow.

Cross-examined. A similar wound would be produced by a heavy stick, or a policeman's truncheon—there were three injuries, but, I think, all produced by one blow.

Witnesses for the Defence.

FREDERICK NOLAN . I am an engine-driver—I know the prisoner—on Sunday afternoon, 13th November, I saw him in a procession coming over Westminster Bridge—before that I saw him at the Lambeth Progressive Club—at that time he had nothing in his hand that I am aware of, or anything concealed under his clothes—in the procession he was not near me—he was in advance of me—he was before the banner; I was behind it—he would be one of the first men the police would see in the procession—he was from 18 to 20 ranks in front of me—the procession was brought to a halt at the foot of the clock tower—the marshal, Mr. Davis, had charge of the procession at that time—I saw the prisoner then; I saw nothing in his hand—up to that time the procession was an orderly and peaceable one—there was no interference with it whatever—I saw no arms of an offensive nature in the possession of the processionists—we had orders to leave our walking-sticks and umbrellas at home when we started, so there was nothing in the possession of the procession that was likely to do any harm—I know the prisoner to be a member of the club—I have known him about 12 months—when the procession was broken up I lost sight of him, and I did not see him for a fortnight afterwards, at the time he was bailed out.

Cross-examined. We had no band belonging to the procession—there was a band in advance of us—we merely had a banner; that was all—we had no sticks—the members had orders to leave their sticks and umbrellas behind—we had no idea that the men in the procession were carrying things like these—the last I saw of the prisoner was at the clock tower.

ALFRED ROWE . I am a scaffolder—I know the prisoner—I did not see the procession—I was standing between King Street and the bottom of Parliament Street, and I saw the prisoner with the police going quietly along—I did not see him assault the police—I stood at the corner as he passed.

Cross-examined. I saw nothing of the bother—I only just saw the prisoner pass as I was standing there—he is a mason by trade.

CHARLES HOLLY . I live at 20, East Street, Kennington Road—I am a member of the Lambeth Progressive Club—I know the prisoner as a member of that club—I saw him in the procession at Kennington Road—he had no weapon in his hand—I did not see any concealed about his person—I was at the head of the procession; he was in the next four—we were walking in fours—he was behind me when we got to Westminster Bridge—he had no weapon at that time.

Cross-examined. We went with the intention of marching to Trafalgar Square if possible—I knew that the processions were to be stopped—I had no idea that any of the persons in the procession were carrying things of this kind—everybody had instructions, even those carrying walking-sticks, not to take any weapons, I did not hear umbrellas spoken of—I had no stick; I never carry one—the prisoner was in the procession till we passed Parliament Street—the procession was stopped by this row all in a minute—he was with us when our banner was seized by the police, and I saw the police baton him—he said to the people who were hooting the police, "Don't hoot the police; don't give the police any chance."

Re-examined. I was not aware that the procession was to be stopped at Westminster Bridge. I saw the police batoning in all directions. I

did not see the prisoner hit—he did not hoot the police—he asked the people not to do it.

MARY ANDREWS . I am married, and live at 4, Grosvenor Street, Page Street, Westminster—I have known the prisoner 12 months, he has lodged with me during that time—he is a quiet, respectable man, peaceable and well disposed—I remember his going out on Sunday morning, 13th November—he took nothing in his hand; he had no iron weapon, nor anything covered with paper; he had no stick, nothing.

Cross-examined. He left about 10 minutes or a quarter to 11—I saw no weapon in his possession then.

Three other witnesses deposed to the prisoner's good character.

GUILTY .

Reference Number: t18871212-146

146. GEORGE HARRISON was again indicted for feloniously wounding Edwin Wheelhouse, with intent to disable him. Second Count. with intent to do grievous bodily harm.

MESSRS. POLAND and MEAD Prosecuted; MESSRS. THOMPSON and BARLING Defended.

EDWIN WHEELHOUSE (Policeman R 430). On 13th November, about a quarter past 4, I was on duty in Bridge Street—I was directed to disperse the crowd there—I felt a punch in my back; I called out to the man next me, "lam stabbed," and I staggered round and became unconscious—I was taken to the police-station, thence to the hospital, where my wound was dressed, and then sent home—after that I was attended by Dr. Kavanagh—I was 27 days disabled from duty—I have resumed now—I cannot identify the prisoner—I had not drawn my truncheon, I had not been out 10 minutes, or any of the men who were acting with me.

Cross-examined. I was in uniform—I cannot recollect seeing the prisoner.

GEORGE WHEELER (Policeman A 474). On 18th November, about a quarter-past 4 in the afternoon, I was on duty in Bridge Street, Westminster, about three yards from Wheelhouse, but at the time we turned out of King Street he was my front rank man—in Bridge Street I was about three yards from him—I felt a blow on my back which caused me to turn round, and I saw the prisoner strike a blow at Wheelhouse—I could not say what with—Wheelhouse sort of reeled round, and said, "Oh, I am stabbed"—he became partly unconscious, and was carried away—I lost sight of the prisoner—I saw him about 20 or 25 minutes afterwards, when he was being brought to King Street Station by Sergeant Honey—I then recognised him as being the man I saw strike the blow at Wheelhouse.

Cross-examined. There was a very large crowd about the spot—I received several severe blows—I was in uniform—the one blow did not hurt me much—I had several blows before that—I had one in my mouth—I have a tooth loose from it now—they did not affect my sight—I am quite sure the prisoner is the man that struck at Wheelhouse—I did not arrest him at the moment because my attention was attracted by Wheel-house saying "lam stabbed"—probably I might have done if he had not reeled round—the prisoner got away—blows were flying about in all directions—the utmost confusion prevailed—I did not see anything in the prisoner's hand.

GEORGE HANLEY (Policeman L 280). I was on duty in Bridge Street

on this afternoon—I saw the prisoner assault Williamson—at that time the prisoner dropped this oyster knife from his left hand—I picked it up before it had done rolling—I afterwards saw the prisoner in custody of another Officer, and I assisted in taking him to the station—the knife was very sharp at the time and clean.

Cross-examined. I was two or three yards away when I saw the prisoner strike Williamson—I was in plain clothes, doing duty detecting thieves—I had no truncheon—I was hit by a policeman—I am known to other policemen in my own division, not out of it; the policeman did not know who I was, he was sending me back the same as he was anyone else—I will swear I saw the prisoner drop this knife.

Re-examined. It has a circular; handle, so that it will roll; it had rolled a little way.

HENRY MORRIS (Policeman L 306). I was on duty in plain clothes in Bridge Street on this afternoon—at the time I saw the assault on Williamson, I saw the prisoner drop this knife from his left hand, Handley picked it up—I was two or three yards from Williamson.

Cross-examined. I was knocked down just after Williamson was stabbed, I don't know by whom—I was hit in the head, behind the neck, and the force of the crowd pulled me down—I first gave evidence on this matter at Bow Street, on the 29th November, at the third hearing—I don't know why I was not examined on the 14th, I was in Court—I identified the prisoner at King Street station on the Sunday in question—I mentioned seeing him drop the knife, to Hanley only—I saw the prisoner strike Williamson across the ear—I did not see Wheelhouse struck—the prisoner dropped the knife from his left hand, I am positive of it, I was looking straight in front of him—he struck Williamson before he dropped the knife—I heard Hanley say "Is Williamson stabbed?"

EDWIN OWEN COX . I am house surgeon at Westminster Hospital—I was on duty there on the afternoon of 13th November, when Wheel-house was brought in; he had an incised wound behind the right shoulder; it was half an inch deep at the upper end, and about an inch and a half in length; his clothes had been removed before I saw him—I stitched up the wound and he was taken away, and I have not seen him since except here—this knife would cause such a wound; the bleeding had stopped-when I saw him.

Cross-examined. The wound was more than a prick—the amount of violence would depend on the clothing the weapon had to go through.

EDWIN WHEELHOUSE (Re-examined). I was very thickly dressed, I had on a great coat, a uniform tunic, and two shirts, and one was woollen, next my skin, and a guernsey over the shirts—the coat I am wearing now is the one I had on then.

EDWIN OWEN COX (Re-examined). I think it would take a considerable amount of violence to go through those clothes—the prisoner is a comparatively short man—Wheelhouse is much taller—the wound was rather below the shoulder joint—I think it quite possible for a man of the prisoner's stature to inflict such a wound—the wound being deepest at the highest point and shallowest at the lower points, to the blow being given above the striker's head and the knife being brought out below—there was nothing dangerous in the wound itself—I should not think it could be caused by the man suddenly rising from a stooping position and

then coming against the weapon—I don't think the force would be enough, and the shape of the wound would be against it; the wound would have been more of a puncture than incised—supposing the knife was dirty, poison might have been introduced into the wound, that would introduce danger—as to the difference in stature, I should like to see them side by side. (Wheelhouse went into the dock and stood beside the prisoner). I think it possible that the prisoner could have inflicted that wound, there is nothing improbable in it that I can see.

PATRICK KAVANAGH . I am divisional surgeon at Deptford—on Monday, 14th November, I saw Wheelhouse at the station—I saw the wound was dressed and did not disturb the bandages that day—on the following day I examined it—the wound was looking very angry and in an unhealthy condition, and not at all inclined to unite or heal—I removed the stitches and dressed it antiseptically; it appeared to be in the condition of a poisoned wound, there was a good deal of swelling about it—Wheelhouse was disabled for a month; he was discharged on Saturday last—the angry character of the wound could have been caused by a dirty weapon—erysipelas set in round the wound—that shows blood-poisoning.

Cross-examined. It might be due to bad condition of the blood, but a wound of that kind occurring in a healthy man would be due to some septic matter or dirt getting into the wound—if matter got into an open wound the same condition would be likely to be produced—those symptoms would be produced more likely in a person with bad blood or whose system was charged with alcohol—the prosecutor was a healthy man—my impression was there must have been dirt or something attached to the weapon—it might arise from the bad blood of the person, if you can prove bad blood was there—I stripped and examined the man all over—he was a thoroughly healthy man.

GUILTY of unlawfully wounding .— Five Tears' Penal Servitude.

Reference Number: t18871212-147

147. WILLIAM BRICKLEY was indicted for and charged on the Coroner's inquisition with the wilful murder of Johannah Brickley.

MESSRS. POLAND and MEAD Prosecuted; MR. AVORY Defended.

WILLIAM BRICKLEY . I am the son of the prisoner—I am getting on for 16 years of age—I live with the prisoner at 4, Grown Street, Fulham—he is a gas labourer, who worked at the Walham Green Gas Works—on Saturday, 19th November, I met him in the evening as he came from work—I went with him to his sister's, Mrs. Davis, 24, Lodge Avenue, Walham Green—we stopped there about an hour—my mother came—my father was drunk—I left with my father and a young man—on our way home my father went into the Sheriff public-house—my mother came up and waited outside—I saw my father take this knife out of his pocket and scrape out his pipe—we all went out together—my mother sent me to a fish shop; I was away about 5 or 10 minutes or a little more—when I got back I saw a crowd in the passage of our house—I had left my father and mother going home, against the Rose and Grown, at the top of the street—I did not go all the way home with them—there was no quarrel between them before I left.

Cross-examined. I can give you no idea how long it was before I got back home—the fish shop is three or four minutes' walk off—I went to buy fish for my mother's and my supper, my father's supper was on the table—this was the knife my father always carried, his ordinary pocket-knife—I

have often seen him clean his pipe out with it before—after he did it he shut up the knife and put it away in his pocket—I did not see him again that evening till he was at the Walham Green Station.

MARY BYE . I am the wife of John Bye, a labourer, and live with him at 4, Crown Street, Fulham, where the prisoner lived with his wife—we had the front downstairs room, and they had two rooms on the second floor—on Saturday night, 19th November, I heard some people come in and go upstairs to the prisoner's apartments about 9 o'clock as near as possible—about two or three minutes after they got upstairs I heard a woman call "Ho!"—I recognised it as Mrs. Brickley's voice—next I heard a woman coming downstairs moaning—I went out, and saw Mrs. Brickley—I found something dripping, which I afterwards found to be blood—Mrs. Brickley then called for Mrs. Burt, who occupies the next room to me—she came out; Mrs. Brickley fell—I went into the street and screamed, and then Mrs. Marshall and other people came in neighbours from next door—I heard Mrs. Marshall call out at the foot of the stairs "Mr. Brickley, you have killed your wife"—he said "If I have, I am very sorry; I did not mean to do it; I loved her as I love my life"—then there was a call for the police, who came, and the deceased woman was taken away.

Cross-examined. I did not see Brickley at the time that observation was made; he was upstairs; he spoke from off the landing—I did not see him when he came in—the prisoner lives on the floor above me—I am on the ground floor; it is only a four-roomed house—they had the back and front room; the front room was the living room—Mrs. Brickley was in the room when she called "Oh!" as far as I could understand—I could hear her call from the front room over my head—both fish shops are within two or three minutes' walk—I did not see him go out of the house.

MARGARET MARSHALL . I live at 3, Crown Street—on this night, about half an hour before it happened as near as I can think, I saw the Prisoner go by my house with his wife in the direction of their home—I saw he was very tipsy; his wife was sober—half an hour after I heard a scream—I went into No. 4, and saw Mrs. Brickley lying in the passage—I said "Mr. Brickley, you have killed your wife"—he said "If I have I am very sorry, for I did not mean to do it, for I loved her as I love my life"—I waited with the deceased woman till the doctor came.

JOHN DOLLORRY . I am a labourer, living at 2, Crown Street, Fulham, next door but one to the prisoner's-between 9 and, 10 o'clock on the night of 19th November I saw a crowd outside No. 4—I went in the passage, and saw Mrs. Brickley lying there, and then went upstairs—I saw the prisoner standing at the top of the stairs crying bitterly—he asked who was coming upstairs—I said "It is me" and afterwards "Jack Dollory"—he told me to come up, and asked me if the woman was dead—he said "Is that you, Jack?"—I said "Yes"—he said "Is she dead?"—I said "No; if you keep yourself quiet she will be all right directly"—he said "It is all her own fault; I am very sorry; it is all her own fault; I did not mean to do it."—I went downstairs; he followed and went out at the back—I went into the prisoner's front room after the woman had been conveyed away—I touched nothing.

Cross-examined. I saw the supper table laid—there was some steak

and 'taters, and some meat on a fork, I believe: knife and fork and a chair at the table, I believe—there was nothing unusual in the appearance of the room, and nothing disturbed as far as I saw—the prisoner was drunk, and seemed very excited, when I spoke to him—he did not follow me downstairs till two or three minutes afterwards—I thought he was going downstairs to return again—I heard him come downstairs and go out at the back.

CATHERINE ROGERS . I live at 31, Crown Street, Fulham, with my husband, a labourer—I have known the prisoner by sight, passing—on Saturday night, 19th November, about 11 o'clock, the prisoner came into my house—he seemed in a wild state of mind, and he said to me "I beg your pardon; I have come to the wrong house; I have killed my wife, and I did not mean to do it: I shall get six months; the police are after me, and it was done accidental"—I told him to leave my place as I should get into trouble if the police were to come and find him there—he commenced rubbing his hands and tearing his hair, and seemed in a regular wild state, and with the greatest difficulty we got him out at the back out of the way.

Cross-examined. I had never spoken to him before—when he said "I beg your pardon," he did not say who it was he wanted—he was quite drunk—the actual words he used were "It was merely done accidental"—when he left he was wringing his hands and tearing his hair.

RALPH THOMAS (Policeman T 160). On 19th November I was fetched to 4, Crown Street, where I saw a woman lying on the floor in the passage in a pool of blood—I found Mrs. Burt there—I sent for Dr. Webb, who came, I suppose, three minutes after I was there—he ordered her to be taken to St. George's Hospital—I assisted to take her there in a ambulance—when I got there she was dead; the doctor pronounced life extinct.

HENRY JONES (Inspector T). On this Saturday night, 19th November, I went to 4, Crown Street, about half-past 11—I went upstairs to the front room, first floor—there was a plate containing meat and potatoes on the table, with knife on the right-hand side and fork on the left—a piece of meat was on the fork—the plate appeared just as if someone had just about commenced to eat—I noticed blood in the room; it started from the side of chair near the window nearest the fireplace, and from there went in drops all round the room to the door, and on the wall nearest the door there was quantity of blood—there was a pool of blood at the doorway and on the landing and at successive places down the stairs—on the handle of the knife on the table near the blade there were two spots of blood, one very small and one about the size of a pea—there was greasy matter in the knife, as if it had been used for food—the prisoner was not in custody then—I looked for him but could not find him—about half-past 2 in the morning I was searching No. 27 in the same street—we knocked at the front room—the prisoner eventually came to the door—as the door was opened he was in the passage—he spoke first—he said "I know what you want; I am very sorry for it; it was all her fault"—I said "Your wife is dead, and you will be charged with killing her; anything you say may be in evidence against you"—he said "I am very sorry to hear it; I came home to have a bit of dinner; I was eating it with my knife; it was all her fault"—I took

him to the station, where the charge of causing the death of his wife was entered—I read the charge to him—he said "You don't mean to say she is dead, sir?"—my opinion is he had been drinking heavily—his coat was on a chair in his front room—I found in the outer coat pocket this ordinary clasp-knife, shut up—there was no mark on it at all—this is the knife that was on the table; it is an ordinary table knife.

Cross-examined. The coat was on a chair on the side opposite the window, on the left-hand side going in at the room door, as if taken off in the ordinary way and thrown down—that chair was not at the table; there was a chair at the table—it looked as though a person had been eating—when I knocked at No. 27 someone opened the door after two or three minutes had elapsed—I did not ask the woman if the prisoner was there—he himself came down and opened the door to me; he was dressed.

HUGH WEBB, M.K.C.S . I live at Fulham—soon after 10 o'clock on Saturday, 19th November, I was called to 4, Crown Street, and on going there I found a woman lying on the floor of the back room, just inside the doorway, on her left side, with her head near the wall and her feet towards the bed, with her left arm underneath her—the clothes of the left arm and shoulder were saturated with blood, and until I cut off the clothes from the arm I could not find the would—I cut off the clothes from the arm, and found an incised wound at the outer and back part of the arm, an inch long and three inches deep, bleeding very little then—it was apparently from behind forwards, almost horizontal, passing between the bone of the arm and the skin on the inner side of the arm—she did not speak, and she appeared to be suffering from loss of blood—she just moaned and murmured; she did not articulate—I gave her brandy and dressed her wound, and sent her to the hospital in the ambulance—she died on the way to the hospital—I did not go too—I think if I had been called in earlier I could have helped her—on making the post-mortem examination I found several large vessels coming from the main artery and veins were cut through; that, together with the shook, was the cause of death—I found nothing more—the wound could decidedly have been inflicted with the larger of these blades of the clasp-knife—the size of the blade, half an inch wide and about three inches long, would correspond entirely with the size of the wound—great violence would be necessary—at another post-mortem examination that I made I found reasons which would induce me to believe that at the time the woman would be susceptible to shock—on examining the heart I found a fatty deposit of some considerable amount, and the stomach was very much dilated and very full of a recently-swallowed meal, and in addition to that there were eight or nine very large pieces of bolted steak of an extraordinary size; two of the largest that I measured were two inches long, and one inch and seven-eighths thick, almost two inches cube—that would render her particularly susceptible to shock.

Cross-examined. I have seen the table knife. (MR. JUSTICE STEPHEN measured this, and said that it was seven-eighths of an inch wide, and six inches long.) I have said that I do not think the wound could have been caused by the table knife because the point is not sharp enough, not because of the breadth—I found no trace of blood on the knives, except on the table knife I have described already; I saw that—the woman was suffering from a fatty heart—she was a stout woman generally—the place

in the arm is a place where there would be a great deal of flesh; it is a fatty part in a woman's arm.

The Prisoner's Statement before the Magistrate. "I have got nothing to say. I remember nothing at all how it occurred."

MARY BYE (Re-examined by MR. AVORY). When I heard something dropping I said to Mrs. Brickley "Is that water?"—she said "No, it is blood."

GUILTY of Manslaughter .—(The prisoner had been twice previously in custody for assaulting his wife.)— Seven Years' Penal Servitude.

THIRD COURT.—Saturday, December 17th, 1887.

Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

Reference Number: t18871212-148

148. GEORGE WETHERALL, Feloniously sending to Alfred Getting a letter demanding money with menaces.

MESSRS. GRAIN and E. BEARD Prosecuted; MR. KISCH Defended.

The letter demanded money in consequence of alleged acts of indecency on the part of the prosecutor.

The prisoner received a good character.

GUILTY .— Discharged on recognisances to appear for judgment when called on.

OLD COURT.—Monday, December 19th, 1887.

Before Mr. Justice Stephen.

Reference Number: t18871212-149

149. DANIEL FRANCIS DOHERTY(35) was indicted for the wilful murder of George Michael Graham. He was also charged on the Coroner's inquisition with the manslaughter of the same person.

MESSES. POLAND and CHARLES MATHEWS Prosecuted; SIR CHARLES RUSSELL, Q.C., with MESSRS. BESLEY and GILL Defended.

THOMAS MEEDEN (Policeman E 227). I have experience in making plans—under the instructions of Inspector Pinhorn I prepared this plan (produced) of the two rooms on the first floor of 47, Woburn Place, and this is an exact copy of it—I have marked and numbered the positions of the different articles of furniture in the room. (The witness pointed these out on the plan, and also on a model of the room).

JOSEPH TYLER HOWE . I am at present living at 186, Marylebone Road—I am an American by birth; I have been in England since May last—I knew the deceased, George Michael Graham—he was a fellow countryman of mine, and came over here in October, I think—I have met the prisoner, I believe he is an American—I first met him about June or July in London—prior to the 19th November I had seen the deceased and the prisoner together, and, as far as I could judge, they always appeared to be on perfectly friendly terms—on the night of the 19th November I went to the Churchill Club at 84, New Oxford Street, and there met the prisoner—we played baccarat together, and I won about 600l. from him—after the game we spoke to each other, and I said "I shall see you on Monday"—he has not paid me that money as yet—we parted from the Club about 2 or 3 o'clock in the early morning of Sunday—that was all that was said about it that night—on Monday, the 28th November, in the neighbourhood of 2 o'clock in the afternoon I went to the Bodega in

Glasshouse Street and there saw the deceased, and about half-past 2 the prisoner came in—Graham was still there—I asked the prisoner if he intended to pay the money, and he said he had not the funds to pay with—I said "Well, if you cannot pay that must end it," or words to that effect—nothing else passed between us then that I can remember—Graham had left the table and returned; he was not there when the conversation took place—he returned directly it was over; the prisoner then rose from his chair, and said to Graham, "Come, George, let us go," and they went out together—I should judge that to be about the neighbourhood of 3 o'clock—on the evening of this same day, about 6 p.m., I went to the American bar of the Criterion Restaurant, and there saw the prisoner—I went up to the bar to drink, and whilst I was there drinking the prisoner came up and said "I cannot pay that money"; he did not say why; I said "Very well, we shan't converse any more about it"—at this time I saw Mr. Graham at the bar, but I do not think he was sufficiently near to hear; the prisoner then mumbled over something, but I did not catch what it was—I walked away towards the grill, which is in the same room—as I was walking Mr. Graham, who was seated at a table, called me towards him and asked me to have a drink and to introduce him to his friend—I then sat down at the table where he was and ordered a drink—Mr. Graham then called Doherty, who came and sat down, and we all drank together—that was Mr. Graham, Mr. Graham's friend, the prisoner, and myself—we were sitting down there together probably five or six minutes, the prisoner then spoke to me and said he could not pay the 600l.—I had not alluded to it in any way whilst we were sitting there—he said it in such a tone that Graham could hear it, and he did hear it—when Doherty opened the conversation about the 600l. I said "I hope you will excuse me, gentlemen, I don't wish to have any conversation about this money"—Doherty then said to Mr. Graham, "Come on, George, you are going home to dine with me?"—we were talking rather loud, and the superintendent of the American bar came up the step and said "This won't do here"—I said "I shan't have any noise myself, excuse me," and I got up and left the table—when Doherty said "I can't pay you the 600l." I said "I am very much disappointed in you"—I think that was said at the Bodega, when he first spoke to me about it—at the Criterion Doherty was talking rather loud about the 600l.; he spoke in a loud voice so that the people round could hear—Doherty left the table when Graham left it, after I left; just before that Graham said to him "Are you not going to drink all your glass?" he had only sipped it, and I think he told him not to talk so loud; he touched him on the shoulder and told him to sit down—Doherty had risen and intended to go, I should judge; he then sat down—that was the first time that Graham had interfered in the matter—after the superintendent came up Doherty ceased to talk so loudly; the superintendent remained by the table; he then got up and walked away—I went to the bar and called for some more drink—whilst I was standing there Doherty came up and we drank together; before that Doherty said to Graham, "You are coming home to dine with me?"; Graham said "Certainly," and they passed out together—that was probably about half-past six, or it might have been a little later—it would be between 6 and 7 when they left the Criterion, nearer 7 than 6—I could not swear whether Doherty was drinking with any one else or not—I know he had two drinks—he seemed to know what

he was about—I could not say what he had been drinking; it was spirits; his manner was not very pleasant—he did not call me any name that I remember, he mumbled something or other, but I walked away, and did not pay any attention to it and did not hear what it was—between 9 and 10 that evening I received certain information which took me to University College Hospital—I there saw Graham, he was conscious at that time—he knew me, he shook me by the hand, and called me by name—I paid him two visits after—I last saw him on Monday morning, 27th November, and was with him when he died, at a quarter to 5 in the morning.

By the COURT. I saw Doherty walk at the Criterion bar, he walked straight.

Cross-examined. I was not examined at the inquest, I was not there; I do not know that Mrs. Doherty was examined on' oath on that occasion.

GEORGE HANSON . I am superintendent of the American bar at the Criterion Restaurant—on Monday evening, 21st November, about a quarter to 7 or nearly 7 o'clock, I saw the three men, Graham, Howe, and the prisoner, seated at a table there—my attention was called to them because they were talking rather loud, I was on the other side of the room—I went to them, and as I came to them Graham was sitting on the other side of the table, the prisoner and Howe were on the sofa—Graham said "It's all right, there will be no row here, I will keep them quiet"—I said "Very well, then, I won't say any thing"—there seemed to be some dispute going on between Howe and the prisoner—Howe then left the table—as soon as he did so the prisoner went out, Howe went to the door and the prisoner followed out; I did the same, because I saw that the prisoner was very excited, and I looked at him as he came to Howe—Howe said "You leave me alone, I will not have anything else to do with you, it is quiet enough now, you keep quiet and don't talk to me again"—Howe turned round and went to the bar—the prisoner followed him to the bar, I did the same, and as he arrived there near Howe, the prisoner said "Will you have a glass to drink now?" Howe smiled, and said "Are you getting into a better temper now, how is it you ask me to have a glass now?"—he said "Well, don't let us talk about it now, let us have a glass and everything will be all over," so he asked for a glass and they had a drink together; they were quiet then, and I left them standing at the bar—I don't think the prisoner was drunk; he seemed excited, but not drunk; he walked like a man who was excited but not drunk, quite well—I can't say that the man was drunk, I don't think so, he was very steady in his walk.

MARGARET REED . I am housemaid to Mrs. Addison, of 47, Woburn Place; the prisoner and his wife occupied two rooms, the drawing room floor, the first-floor; they came there about five months ago—the front room is the sitting room; it has three windows looking on to the street—, the bedroom is at the back, with folding-doors and a curtain as well—on Monday, 21st November, dinner had been ordered for 7 o'clock—Mrs. Doherty was at home at that time; Mr. Doherty came in at 20 minutes to 8 with a friend, Mr. Graham—he had a latch-key, I saw him let himself in; I was in the dining room, I saw him walk through the hall—I had seen Mr. Graham there on several occasions, he had dined there with Mr. Doherty—on this occasion I was not certain that he was coming to dine; I had laid the dinner things for three at the table in the middle of the room—I saw Mr. Doherty go upstairs, he walked all right,

I think—Mr. Graham also went up—I went up about 10 minutes after them—I took up the joint and put it on the table—Mr. Doherty was then sitting on a chair by the window nearest the fireplace, near the writing-table, which is in the furthest corner from the door (referring to the model), he was not doing anything—Mr. Graham was standing between Mr. Doherty and the other side of the table, Mrs. Doherty was standing between the dinner-table and the easy-chair, the ladies' chair—I did not hear anything said—I put the dish on the table and went out and fetched the plates and vegetables, brought them in and put them on the table—Mr. Graham pulled his chair and sat down by the dinner-table, Mr. Doherty remained in his chair—Mrs. Doherty never moved while I was in the room, she stood where she was when I entered the room—I put the things on the table and then left the room to get the sauce-boat from Wiseman, the page boy, who was assisting in bringing up the things; I went dawn three steps, Wiseman was on the landing ready to give me the sauce-boat—I heard Mrs. Doherty ask Mr. Doherty if he would come to his dinner; that was while I was in the room—he never answered her—I heard nothing more said—when I went down the three stairs I heard a noise, I was not positive what it was, I heard something fired—before that I heard Mrs. Doherty ask Mr. Doherty "Why do you look so strange?"—he made no answer; he did look very strange that night, he had a strange expression on his face; he looked as if he was cross and upset by something—I did not hear Mr. Graham say anything before I left the room—I do not remember anything else that was said before I left the room—after leaving the room the noise was the first thing I heard, and then I heard Mrs. Doherty scream, and she rushed out of the room—I can't remember any word that she used, not then—I had then gone down and got the sauce-boat from the page, he was on the first landing, just at the foot of the first flight of stairs—after Mrs. Doherty rushed out of the room she stood a little time on the landing and then went downstairs—after she rushed out I heard a noise in the room like scuffling, and then I heard another noise, a shot a second time—I heard nothing more, I then went downstairs—I should think there was an interval of four or five seconds between the shots—when I went down I remained in the hall—I saw Mr. Graham come downstairs; that seemed a little time after the second shot, I don't know whether it was five minutes or not, he came down alone and went into the dining room; Mrs. Doherty was there, and Mrs. Addison and some friends who lodge there—I did not hear Mr. Graham say anything when he came down; Mrs. Doherty sent Mr. Edinboro, one of the lodgers, for a doctor—I afterwards saw Mr. Graham undo his trousers, and I saw blood on his shirt—a Mr. Von Angern was there—I saw Mr. Doherty leaning over the banisters by the drawing room door, and he afterwards came down, between five and ten minutes after Mr. Graham had come down; the doctor had arrived then, he had arrived before I saw Mr. Doherty leaning over the banisters, about five minutes after Mr. Graham had come down—when Mr. Doherty came down he went into the dining room where Mr. Graham was—Mrs. Addison was there, and I believe the doctor—when Mr. Doherty came in he said to Mr. Graham "It was an accident"—Mr. Graham said "Yes," he was then taken away in a cab with the constable and Mr. Edinboro—I went up into the drawing room as soon as Mr. Graham went—I noticed the ladies' arm-chair on fire, in front of the back part, there was a red fire on

it, not burning, smouldering; it was standing—I moved it and saw a bullet on the carpet, just at the back of the chair—it was afterwards taken possession of by the police, and the board was taken up—I got a wet sponge, took the chair out of the room, and put out the fire; none of the furniture had been upset, nothing moved—I saw a table-napkin on the table, at the corner, it had not been unfolded, it was in the ring; there was something black on it like powder—this is it (produced), it was more black then—I had put it on clean on the Saturday, it had no black on it—the other napkins had not been moved—I had not put one for Mr. Graham, this one was moved to the corner—I afterwards showed Inspector Pinhorn the chair and where the bullet was, I gave it to him—I had seen a revolver once, on the mantelpiece in the bedroom quite two months ago—I did not know where it was kept—this is it, and this is the chair—when the police came Mr. Doherty was taken away, Mrs. Doherty remained.

Cross-examined. I was examined before the Coroner as well as before the Magistrate—Mr. Graham had been several times to dinner, not on other occasions—he always came with Mr. Doherty, and he and Mrs. Doherty and Mr. Graham dined together—Mr. Doherty generally came home to dinner—they all seemed to be very friendly and intimate—I never noticed any quarrel, estrangement, or difference between them—I did not take notice whether they were old friends—I never heard them call each other by their names—when they came in they had their hats and coats on—I don't know where Mr. Graham put his coat or hat—Mr. Doherty always used to put his hat on the fire-screen—sometimes he laid his coat on the sofa or the door—I was at the Coroner's Court when Mrs. Doherty was examined—I did not see Mr. Doherty go into his bedroom—I don't know whether he did or not—I don't remember whether the folding-doors were open or closed—I always look after the bedrooms—I cannot recollect whether the basin had been used for washing hands—I went into the room after Mr. Doherty came down, and the basin had been used, by whom I could not say—after I had seen them seated Mrs. Doherty was standing—I don't remember seeing a paper in Mr. Graham's hand—he drew up his chair to the table with his legs under the table—Mrs. Doherty sat at the end of the table, and Mr. Doherty was facing Mr. Graham—it was I who noticed the chair burning—no one called my attention to it, there was no one else in the room—I saw it after I saw Mr. Doherty standing by the landing, and after he had come down to the dining-room—I was three steps downstairs when I heard the first shot—I think I said four steps before the Coroner—there are 10 steps from the top to the first landing where the boy was—there was a tressel on the landing which I put my tray on—I took off all the covers when I left the room, and left them on the tressel outside—it was as I was walking down to meet the boy that I heard the first report—I took three more steps down when I heard the second report: the second followed the first very quickly—I was down the middle of the first flight when Mrs. Doherty screamed and rushed past me—it was after she came out of the room that I heard the scuffling—it was not like a man rising suddenly from his chair and pushing it from him—it was like two gentlemen trying to take something away from each other—it seemed like a scuffle—I heard no voices or angry words; only some noise on the floor—the drawing-room door was open—if there had been any angry words or

shouts, or anything of that kind, I should have heard them; I heard none—I don't think I said anything about a scuffle before the Coroner—I did not think of it at the time—I did not attach any importance to it when before the Coroner—I said before the Coroner that Mr. Doherty had a funny expression in his face, which I had not seen before; he looked rather stupid—I had never noticed him drunk—he looked rather stupid and cross—Mrs. Doherty said "Dan, why do you look so strange?"—I did not hear her say "Why, Dan, you have been drinking"—if she said so it must have been before I came into the room, I did not hear it—I don't know what made me look at him—I was seen by the police, and my evidence was taken before I was examined at the inquest—I mentioned about the scuffle to Mr. Pinhorn on the night of the occurrence—I had laid the table for three on this occasion—Mrs. Doherty had told me to do so—I did not hear any laughing or talking after they came in; I heard no talking at all—Mrs. Doherty had something in the fender, I could not say what it was—I said before the Magistrate: "I mentioned the scuffle first on the Sunday after Mr. Graham died—I think I mentioned it to Inspector Pinhorn at the time the statement was taken down"—that was after the death, but I made a mistake; I mentioned it the same night—I went downstairs when Mrs. Doherty went down—Mr. Graham came down very soon after her; I should say nearly five minutes—Mrs. Doherty had been running out into the street before he came down—he came down with ease as if not conscious of being seriously hurt—I did not think he was hurt—he came down without wanting any assistance; he walked in his ordinary way—I remained in the hall—I did not see what was going on in the dining-room—I heard them talking, but did not hear what they were saying—I saw Mr. Von Angern run downstairs before Mr. Doherty came down—when Mr. Doherty came down, he only said "It was an accident"—he still had the stupid look I have described—he spoke very little—I saw one doctor come—I don't know his name—Mr. Doherty asked one of the doctors if he was a doctor, and he said "Yes"—he was attending to Mr. Graham.

Re-examined. When I told the Magistrate that Mr. Doherty had a funny look, I was asked what I meant by it, and I said he looked cross—half of the folding-door was always kept locked and bolted—there were several newspapers in the room; they stood between the middle window and the wall.

FRANK WISEMAN . I am page boy at 47, Woburn Place—on the Monday evening I assisted in bringing up the dinner from the kitchen—I was on the landing between the ground floor and the first floor; I had got up the sauce-boat after the housemaid had carried in the joint and vegetables—I was on the first landing half-way down the stairs—as the housemaid came towards me I heard a report of firearms—she had taken the sauce-boat from me, and had just gone back with it; she had come down three stairs—Mrs. Doherty then ran out of the room screaming and went downstairs—I then ran down—I heard the report of another firearm—I can't say what interval there was between the two shots; I should say three or four seconds—about three, minutes after the second shot I saw Mr. Graham come downstairs and go into the dining-room—I saw him undo his trousers, and saw that he was wounded—I afterwards saw Mr. Doherty sitting in a chair in the dining-room—I had not seen anything of him before that—I had not seen him come downstairs—I saw

him at the top of the stairs opposite the drawing-room door—he seemed to be listening to what was going on in the house—he was standing with his hands behind him, near the banisters—I could see him from the hall.

Cross-examined. All who were in the hall could have seen where he was if they had looked, he was not concealing himself—I heard Mr. Graham say "I am shot," as he was coming downstairs—I was excited at what had occurred—I did not hear what took place in the dining room.

ELLEN ADDISON . I am the wife of Thomas Addison, and live at 47, Woburn Place we let apartments—the prisoner and his wife were lodging with us since June—on Monday night, 21st November, we were at dinner in the dining room on the ground floor, when the prisoner returned about 20 minutes to 8—Mr. Edinboro was dining with us, and Mr. Von Angern and my daughter—after dinner Mr. Von Angern went up to his bedroom—I heard a noise overhead, it seemed like something falling; I then heard screaming, and then a second, noise—I rushed to the foot of the stairs, and saw Mrs. Doherty rushing down—there was a very short interval between the two noises—Mrs. Doherty fell down the first flight—I caught her, she said "My husband has shot himself," or "has shot his friend," in the agitation of the moment I do not remember which—at that point Mr. Edinboro Went for a doctor—I think Mr. Graham had come down before Mr. Edinboro left—I stayed in the room for a second or so with Mrs. Doherty—I did not notice the boy—Mr. Graham came down directly after the second shot—I had only time to catch Mrs. Doherty—she went out of the hall door and came back again, and by that time Mr. Graham came down—I think he came down before Mr. Edinboro went out to fetch a doctor—I went into the dining room immediately with Mrs. Doherty and Mr. Graham—she said to him "Are you hurt?" he said "Yes, I am hit;" she asked where and he placed his hand on the part, in front of his stomach—Mrs. Doherty then said "It was an accident," he said "Yes, give me pen, ink, and paper," and he sat down in an easy chair—before he sat down he unfastened his trousers and showed Mrs. Doherty where he was wounded—I got the pen, ink and paper for him immediately, they were quite handy, and he sat forward if the chair as if to write; he then felt faint and leaned back—about that time Dr. Garlick came, he lives next door but one—he examined Mr. Graham, and it was arranged to send him to the hospital I went to the door for a cab—a cab was brought—I returned to the dining during that time, or before, Mr. Doherty had come down—I was away from the dining room perhaps a minute or not so long—Mr. Doherty said to Mr. Graham, "It was an accident," Mr. Graham said "Yes"—Mr. Edinboro then returned, and after him a police-constable arrived—with their assistance Mr. Graham was put into the cab; he did not want much assistance, he walked down the hall, and was. taken to the hospital-after he had gone the prisoner and his wife remained with me in the dining room—Mrs. Doherty was very excited and agitated, he seemed to me to be dull and stupid—I asked him where the pistol was—I don't think he replied, but Mrs. Doherty ran upstairs to see if it was in the room; it was all done very quickly—she returned almost immediately, she did not say anything, she looked at me and I concluded that the pistol was in his pocket—she shook her head, as much as to say it

was not upstairs—in consequence of that I went and sat down by the side of the prisoner, taking one of his hands in mine, whilst his wife sat on the other side of him taking his other hand—I thought he might take it out of his pocket, and that inadvertently it might go off—Mr. Von Angern then came into the room with Mr. Murphy, another doctor—I said to Mr. Murphy, "Would you take the pistol away?"—the prisoner said nothing—Mr. Murphy said it was not his place—I then said to Mr. Von Angern, "Fetch a policeman"—I think the prisoner said the pistol was upstairs—Mr. Von Angern left the room, then Dr. Padmore arrived, the prisoner was still in the dining room, and Mrs. Doherty also—after that policeman Wilton returned, I then left the dining room, when I returned I found that Wilton had taken the prisoner into custody—during all this time it seemed to me that he was in a stupid condition, he said nothing—as far as I can remember, I have given every word lie said—he might have been there a quarter of an hour perhaps, I am not at all certain of the time.

Cross-examined. I was at the Coroner's inquest when Mrs. Doherty was examined on oath—I heard the noise, which proved to be a report of firearms, and after the first report, and before the second, I got up and went into the hall, as well as I recollect—it was the second report that alarmed me, and then I rushed out into the hall on the instant of the second report—I found Mrs. Doherty rushing downstairs in an agitated manner—I had just time to catch Mrs. Doherty in my arms—she went to the door, and was coming back to the room when I saw Graham coming down; he was coming quickly after her—she spoke very kindly to Graham, "Are you hurt?"—she then said "It was an accident," not as a question, as a statement—he said "Yes, Mrs. Doherty"—that was some time before the prisoner came downstairs, immediately Graham got into the dining-room—I was there continuously in the presence of Graham and Doherty after Doherty came down until he was taken away in a cab; I was practically in Doherty's hearing all the time—there is no ground for suggesting that Doherty went close to Graham and felt in his pockets or pocket; I am quite positive of that—Graham was quite quiet, and seemed to have his senses under perfect self-command—the prisoner scarcely spoke at all, and when I and his wife stood on each side of him to see whether he had the pistol he was perfectly passive in our hands—I am quite sure from my own judgment that the prisoner had been drinking; I think he was Stupid from drink—I noticed huskiness in his voice; his voice was thick, like that of a drunken man—when he came down his manner was friendly towards Graham—he mumbled something about being sorry, in a thick voice; Graham was going off in the cab that was waiting for him—when he first came into the room Doherty said something about its being accidental—he said "Are you hurt, Graham?"—Graham said "Yes"—Doherty said "I am sorry, you know it was an accident"—Graham said "Yes"—Graham did not make any accusation or express any resentment against Doherty in any form of language to me or Mrs. Doherty before or after Doherty came down—I heard Dr. Padmore say he thought Doherty's condition was verging on delirium tremens.

MAX VON ANGERL . I am a journalist, and on 21st November I was living at 47, Woburn Place, and occupying a front bedroom, third floor, there—I had been dining downstairs that evening with Mrs. Addison,

but before 8 o'clock I went up to dress, as I was going out—about 8 o'clock I was in my bedroom, when I heard a loud noise, which I thought was a pistol shot, from below; then I thought I heard a scream, and after that another shot—I opened my door, and walked out, and downstairs—I had to pass the drawing-room landing, where I saw the prisoner standing in the open drawing-room door—I thought I noticed a pistol in his hand; I cannot say for certain in which hand or how he was holding it; I am not very sure I saw it at all, it is only my impression—as I passed down there was, I think, a space of four feet between us—he was simply standing quietly, he did not say anything; I expect he saw me going past him, he was facing towards me; he did not speak, nor did I—I passed on to the dining-room floor; I opened the dining-room door, which was closed, and inside I saw Mr. Graham—Mrs. Doherty was present—Mr. Graham undid his clothes, and then I went for a doctor—I was away, I expect, about 15 minutes, and when I returned Mr. Graham had left the house—on a chair in the dining-room I saw the prisoner seated, with Mrs. Addison on one side and his wife on the other, each holding a hand—I said to him "Do you intend to do any more mischief?"—Mrs. Addison asked him then for the pistol—the prisoner said the pistol was upstairs—there was some more conversation at the time with regard to the pistol—after that I left the house, and went to Bow Street for the purpose of calling the police to the, premises—when I came back the prisoner was already in custody.

GEORGE GARLICK . I live at 45, Woburn Place, and am a registered medical practitioner—I was sent for, and went to this house a little before 8 o'clock—I saw Mr. Graham there, and saw he had got this wound in the side—afterwards I saw Mrs. Doherty in the room—when I first went into the room the prisoner was not there; he came down into the room, I should judge, a minute after I arrived, or perhaps a little longer—when the prisoner and Mrs. Doherty were in the room Graham proposed that he should go to his house, and I was against it, and recommended that he should be taken to bed, so that we could have him undressed to examine him properly—Mrs. Doherty then spoke, looking towards her husband as if she were desiring him to come and assist Graham; I could not say the words she said—when they were in the room the prisoner did not assist, but afterwards, when we went into the passage, the prisoner came forward to assist Graham upstairs—when he did so Mrs. Doherty placed herself between the prisoner and Graham, and said something to the effect that the two should not go upstairs together—he was not taken upstairs; he was afterwards taken to the hospital—I saw the prisoner enter the room and walk to the other end, and then I saw him sit at the other end of the table—he did not appear to me to walk in any staggering way, and his step did not suggest to me that he was intoxicated—as he sat at the other end of the table he had a lowering, frowning expression—I do not know that I have much to add to that—he did not move, he sat at the other end of the table—when Graham was seated in the cab the prisoner was not there.

Cross-examined. I was occupied with my patient; that was the principal object of my attention—I said at the police-court "Doherty was sitting at the other end of the table, with a dazed expression, lowering expression," and I added "Not as though under the influence of drink"—I had not had it suggested to my mind at that time that he had been

drinking; no one had told me—the wound was on the right side of the abdomen, not quite so high as the hip-bone; not far off—I should say it was below the navel—I did not see the mark on the other side where it came out—Mrs. Doherty in the room made some intimation to her husband to come forward and assist Graham upstairs, and when he did come forward in the passage to assist she interposed between them, and said something—I did not notice that when the prisoner came forward to assist, Graham showed any resentment in any way to his offering to assist him—I noticed no recoiling from the prisoner; nothing of the kind—I heard the constable put the question to Graham when Graham was in the cab, and I was standing outside at the door, to the effect "Shall I arrest Doherty?"—the answer was "It was an accident"—that was meant as the answer, and that he was not to arrest—during all this time Graham was quite calm and collected; he was not in fact conscious, so far as you could judge, that he had received a serious wound—whether he did not know, or whether he was a man of great courage, he showed no want of self-command, and was completely calm and collected—I should say a wound like that ought to have caused pain after the first shock was over; when I say first shock, I daresay he would not have felt it the instant he was shot, but almost immediately after he would—I know he was not suffering considerable pain at the time he was put into the cab, because I asked him the question—he was not under much prostration at the time—one would not have said he was wounded unless you had known it, I think.

EICHARD WILTON (Policeman E 126). On Monday, 21st November, Mr. Edinboro spoke to me at the corner of Russell Square and Woburn Place, and in consequence I went at once to 27, Woburn Place; I got there about 10 minutes past 8—I saw Mr. Graham in the hall—afterwards a cab was sent for, and I and Mr. Edinboro took him to University College Hospital—on the way there he said "I feel myself bleeding in the stomach"—it took us five or six minutes to drive to the hospital—I and Mr. Edinboro assisted him out of the cab there; he gave me some directions—I left him just at the entrance of the door—I afterwards returned to 47, Woburn Place, where I saw the prisoner—I took him into custody and detained him there in consequence of what Graham had said to me when he got out of the cab at the University College Hospital—I went back to the house as quick as possible; the prisoner was sitting in the dining room—I said "Mr. Doherty?"—he said "Yes"—I said "A revolver, sir?"—he said "Yes"—I said "You had better give it to me, sir, before there is any further mischief done"—he then took the revolver from his waist-belt under his waistcoat in' front of the trousers—I had not seen it before he took it from there—his wife said "You had better give the constable the revolver," and then it was I saw him take it from his waist-belt—this is the revolver produced, a five-chambered revolver—three of the chambers were loaded and two empty—"Smith and Wesson, Springfield, Mass." is on the top part of the barrel—when the prisoner gave me the revolver he said to me "Is my friend hurt much?" (I made this note directly afterwards) "I hope he is not; I did not mean to hurt him; I am very sorry"—I told him I should detain him till the arrival of the inspector—I remained with him till Inspector Pinhorn arrived—I then handed the revolver to the inspector—I should think the inspector came five or ten minutes after—the prisoner

had said nothing more in the meantime—that same night I was at the hospital about 12 o'clock when the prisoner and the inspector were by the side of Graham—I heard a paper read—before it was read over in the presence of the prisoner and Graham I had heard the inspector read it to the prisoner, before he was taken in the operating room—when the paper was read the prisoner, Graham, myself, the inspector, a doctor, and a detective were present—at the end the prisoner said "I never had any wrong words with you"—Graham said "He is right"—when I detained Doherty he had been drinking, but I don't think he was drunk.

Cross-examined. I could see he had been drinking—just before we started for the hospital Graham said "I have been shot, bat if was quite an accident; call a cab"—I put no questions to him on the way to the hospital—when I came to arrest the prisoner he said "Is my friend hurt much; I hope he is not; I did not mean to hurt him; I am very sorry "—I charge my memory that that is what he said—he had been drinking; I don't think he was drunk—I said at the police-court "Doherty was not exactly sober; he had been drinking, but was not drunk, bat I cannot say whether he knew what he was about"—that presented my view of the matter at the time—I was present at the hospital when the prisoner was brought into the presence of Graham—I knew there had been an operation performed by Dr. Barnes about half-past nine that evening, I believe—I think it was between 12 and quarter-past at night when this statement was read over in the presence of Graham to the prisoner—Pinhorn said "You must not ask him too many questions; he is in rather a dangerous state"—I believe those were the words or words to that purpose; I don't know the exact words—I don't remember Pinhorn saying "If you have a question to put to him put it through me; I will put them to him; it will disturb him less if I put the questions for you"—Doherty put no question but the one I have mentioned—I am quite clear about the words used on this occasion, "Had I any wrong words with you?"—the deceased said he was right, meaning to assent, that he had not had any wrong words with him, as I understood—when the prisoner was told he might put a question he appeared to me to be about to make a lot of questions, and the inspector said "You must not ask him too many questions; he is in a dangerous state."

CHARLES PINHORN (Inspector E). About half-past eight p.m. on the 21st November, in consequence of certain information, I went to 47, Woburn Place—at the dining-room door I saw "Wilton, and in the dining room I saw the prisoner—Mrs. Addison spoke to me, and in consequence of what she said I said to the prisoner "l am an inspector of police; I am told you have wounded a man, and shall have to arrest you"—the prisoner replied "Yes"—I left the constable in charge of him after the constable had handed me the revolver that has been produced—accompanied by Margaret Reed I went up on to the drawing-room floor, where she pointed out to me an easy-chair—I noticed the spot on which the chair stood at the time she pointed it out; it is correctly shown on the model; this is the easy-chair—I noticed a hole in the front of the back and a hole at the back of the back of the easy-chair—the hole at the back was between three and four inches lower than that at the front—at the same time my attention was called to the carpet of the room immediately at the back of the chair, and to the floor boards under the carpet—I noticed a hole such as would be made by a bullet in the carpet and could

feel it in the boards—I have brought the floor boards away (the piece of board was produced)—there was no bullet in the board when I saw it; it had been taken out by the girl Reed—the hole did not go very far in; it went in transversely—at about the same time this bullet was handed to me by the girl; it has been somewhat flattened—I have since fitted that bullet in its present shape in the hole in the floor board—the bullet is 38 calibre—the revolver was handed to me by the constable—I examined and found it contained two empty cartridges, and three chambers had full cartridge cases—the bullet corresponds with those cartridges as far as I can see—while I was in the drawing room I believe Mrs. Doherty came up from downstairs—she returned from the dining room to the drawing room, and then handed me this box containing 45 full cartridges—I saw she took them from a chest of drawers in the bedroom leading out of the drawing room—the cartridges corresponded exactly with the full cartridges in the revolver—I then returned downstairs and took the prisoner to the station—I left him there and went to University College Hospital, where I saw the house surgeon, Mr. Jecks—in consequence of what he told me I went in search of a Magistrate with the idea of taking Mr. Graham's deposition—I returned to the police-station, and there later information reached me, in consequence of which I returned at once to the hospital, taking the prisoner with me—about quarter to 12 I told him I was about to take him to the hospital to see Mr. Graham; that I was about to take a statement from him as to what had occurred—he replied "I wish I was in his position"—I then took him to the hospital with Sergeant Leake and Constable Wilton—I left him there in charge while I went into the operating theatre—I saw Mr. Graham there lying on the operating table—he was drowsy; he kept his eyes closed for a while—I put certain questions to him, which had the effect of somewhat arousing him—I then continued my questions, and he answered them, and I took down in writing the substance of the answers as he gave them—I believe Dr. Jecks was present and others—the notes I made are attached to the deposition; these (produced) are they—I took the notes into an adjoining room, and from those notes and my recollection of what the man had said to me I wrote out this statement—I took the statement into the operating theatre and read it over to Mr. Graham—he was then fully aroused; he did not suggest or make any alteration—I then went to the prisoner and brought him with the officers into the operating theatre, and said to him "I have a statement here made by Mr. Graham, I am about to take you in to him and read it in his presence, and you will be able to, ask Mr. Graham any questions you choose upon it"—I then read it to him in the presence of the two officers—he was virtually in their custody—I then told Mr. Graham that Mr. Doherty was there, and that I was about to again read the statement to him—I did so; I read it slowly so that the prisoner could hear it—he stood by my side—Graham did not then suggest any alteration or addition—after I had read it I asked him to sign it, and he did so—this is it (Read: "I met Mr. Doherty at 4.30 this afternoon at the Bodega, and was with him until we went to his house; we went there in a cab, and on the way had some conversation about 600l. he had lost. He said he should not pay it. I said he ought to. In the room his wife said he had been drinking and was upset. Whilst they were talking I picked up a newspaper, and thinking that

dinner was ready, sat down. He went into the bedroom, and coming out again fired at me. I cannot say he pointed the revolver at me, because I had the newspaper. After he had fried he said to himself 'Fire, fire, fire. I said 'You have hit me.' He did not attempt to assist me. I went downstairs, and he then felt in my trousers pocket as if to see I had a revolver. I then said it was an accident for fear he should fire again")—this is signed George M. Graham, and by three witnesses—after that I told the prisoner that he could ask Mr. Graham a few questions if he pleased—he commenced to talk in a rambling, confused kind of manner as to their former acquaintance, and I then said to him "Please put your question through me, so as not to disturb Mr. Graham," and he said "Have I ever had any wrong words with you before?"—I commenced to repeat the question, when Mr. Graham answered "He is right," without waiting for my repeating it—I then wrote down the question and answer—I then said to the prisoner "Have you any other question to ask?" and he signified by his action that he did not wish to ask any other question—he shook his head, and turned to go—we then left the room, and he was afterwards taken to the police-station—he was there charged with shooting with a revolver at George Michael Graham, with intent to slay and kill—he made no answer—this was about half-past 12—I had seen the prisoner, and had him more or less under observation from half-past 8 in the evening—when I first saw him he struck me as being sober—he appeared to have been drinking, but he seemed fully to know what he was about—he spoke plainly—there was nothing peculiar about his walk—his condition afterwards was much about the same.

Cross-examined. The pistol is a new one—I should think it had never been fired before—it has the modern improvements—one, action of the trigger serves the two purpose of discharging one chamber, and bringing the next chamber in its place—it does not require two pulls at the trigger—I found three cartridges in the pistol, and two recently discharged, and I found 45 cartridges making up the packet of 50—one of them was a difficult make, and had no name on it; the others are Kynoch's—they are all the same size—the fact of having injured his friend should have a sober effect on him; it would upon me—when I arrested him I did not tell him that I believed his friend was seriously hurt—I think I never expressed any opinion to him as to the extent of the injury—he said "I wish I was in his place"—I am not prepared to say that he said it regretfully—when I went to the deceased I found that he had just gone through a serve operation, and he had not recovered from the effects of ether that had been given him—I asked him some questions, and took notes—these are the notes in pencil on the side of the paper—I afterwards wrote out the statement on the same sheet of paper—I did not read the notes to Mr. Graham—these are the notes. (Read: "I told him he must pay the 600l., and he then shot at me. He got revolver from bedroom—stood 8 feet off—first shot—friend—600l. lost—came in cab—met at Bodega 4.30—conversation in cab—wife—cross—drinking—you have hit me—not in house the dispute")—the notes are extremely brief—the statement was taken from memory; very much—he did not allege any dispute in the house—before saying to the prisoner that he might put a few question I had read the statement three times, first to the deceased, then to the prisoner, and then again to the deceased in the prisoner's presence—I should not have known that the deceased had gone through a severe

operation, except from once or twice an expression of pain—I should not have known it from his countenance—I fully understood that it was a severe trial to his system—I do not recollect the prisoner saying "I have always been your friend"—or "Have I ever had any misunderstanding with you?")—he did not refer to the length of their acquaintance, not tangibly—15 years was not mentioned.

Re-examined. The question the prisoner put was "Have I ever had any wrong words with you before?"—I wrote that question down immediately after leaving the theatre—I am sure that he used the word "before."

CYRIL WILLIAM JECKS . I was house surgeon at University College Hospital on Monday evening, 21st November, when about 8.15 I saw Mr. Graham—I at once proceeded to examine him—I loosened his things, and at once saw the wound in his side; it went right through—I saw from the trousers that there was a hole in front, but not behind—the clothes were searched, and I found the bullet in the coat—I saw no burning of the trousers at the place the bullet had entered—there was a very slight discolouration of both sides—there was some blackening round the wound, probably from powder; I could not say for certain—I attended to him; he was operated on—about half-past 9 I had him carried into the operating theatre—he had ether given to him at that time—I was present about 12 o'clock at night, when the inspector came and saw him—I heard the inspector ask him questions, and afterwards read the statement over to him—at that time Mr. Graham was perfectly conscious—the prisoner was brought in, and the statement was read over again, and signed by Mr. Graham, myself, the inspector, and the police officer—after that the inspector said the prisoner might put one or two questions to him—the prisoner seemed to try and push his way past Inspector Pinhorn to get to Graham to ask some questions or make some statement; then Pinhorn suggested that any question should be put through him—I heard the prisoner put the question, but I could not remember the exact words of it; it was to the effect whether they had ever had any quarrel, and Mr. Graham answered "He is right"—Mr. Graham remained in the hospital under my care and that of the other surgeons there—he was not in a dangerous state all the time he was there; he did as well as we could possibly expect for some days—on Friday he got rapidly worse; he was there five days—he had been seen from time to time by his friends—after he died, I was present at the post-mortem—the cause of death was peritonitis, resulting from the wound—one of the intestines had been injured—at the post-mortem I found an old bullet in his chest—he said we should I find it there, and we did—there was a scar, and embedded in the chest was an old bullet that had probably been there for years, I should say certainly for months—that was a small conical bullet, smaller than this, a pistol bullet.

Cross-examined. This is my signature—the first operation was a very mild one—the severe one was after his statement, at 1 o'clock in the morning—we thought the first bullet had not penetrated the abdomen—we put him under ether—he had recovered from the ether; he was drowsy, but conscious—that was a shock to the system.

By the COURT. After the severe operation I do not think he was well enough to have been examined by a Magistrate; he was in a very dangerous condition.

By SIR, CHARLES RUSSELL. He was in a very dangerous condition the next day—the operation is one of the most dangerous possible—the second operation was about two hours after the first—the first was at half-past 9 o'clock, and lasted half an hour, and the second was at half-past 1 o'clock, and lasted at hour and a half—I believe he saw his friends for a few minutes.

SIR CHARLES RUSSELL stated that the prisoner was desirous of making a statement. MR. JUSTICE STEPHEN said that the rule he had laid down was that if a prisoner was desirous of making a statement he must make the statement before his learned Counsel spoke, and that the result of the statement was that it gave a reply to the other side.

The prisoner then made the following statement:—I have known Mr. Graham the deceased, personally for 15 years; we have always been the best of friends, and have never had a word to mar our friendship in any way. I have always lent him my money. We have always befriended each other in every way; he has dined at my house six or seven different times, and since his arrival in London we have been in one another's company nearly every day. I met him at the Bodega on Monday, the 21st November, by appointment, a little after 4. I met Mr. Howe, a gentleman, a friend of mine. Mr. Howe got up and left for a moment, and went to the W. C.; after he was gone Graham said, "How about that 600l.?" I said "I am not in a position to talk to you now about it." I said to him "Come, let us go." I did not wish to speak to Howe. We went to the Criterion bar. We met Marshall and Stratton and a gentleman from the Moore and Burgess Minstrels; we had a drink there, and while we were there Mr. Howe came in and drank with us. Then Mr. Graham and I went down to the Leicester bar at Leicester Square; we had a drink there. We had a conversation in the Leicester bar about horses. He was going to Manchester, and I advanced him 25l. to go to the races. I had advanced him money. He owed me when he died about 60l. We went back again to the Criterion, where we met the same party we had been talking together with, Mr. Stratton and Mr. Marshall, and we had a drink again. Then Mr. Howe came over and said, "I did not think it of you. I don't think you intend to pay that money." I said "I am not in a position to pay it." I walked away from him and sat down at the table to have a drink with Mr. Graham. He called a friend of his over, I think a gentleman named Hyams, interested in some way with a New York paper; he introduced me to him; we all three had drink. Howe came and sat next to me and made some remark to me, I have forgotten what it was. That passed all off. He still kept talking about 600l., so I remember getting up and calling Mr. Graham. It was, I suppose, a little after 7. We went then downwards to Leicester bar again; we had a drink or two there and came back and took a cab, I think it was in front of the Piccadilly Restaurant. Coming home in the cab our conversation was of horse-racing, and if he saw anything that was good while he was at the races he was to send me a wire and I was to lay in the pool. We were talking about the riots in Trafalgar Square. He remarked that no more people were killed, I remarked that the reason why no more people were killed was because policemen don't carry firearms. There was talk of firearms. He said he had one at home. I said I had one I would show him. When we got home I remember coming in the house—I can't say exactly when I did get in the house, but when I got in the house I had

taken my clothes off, and my wife was talking to me of being in liquor. We both sat down to table, he on one side and me on the other, and Mr. Graham and me were laughing about my wife speaking to me about being drunk, and then I got up and went into the bedroom to wash my hands. I cannot say how long I was in the room, but the pistol was lying on the mantel-piece; I picked it up. As I stood at the door it went off; how it went off only One can tell, and that is God Almighty. I had no more idea how the pistol went off; the farthest from my mind was to harm my friend; we never had a word whatever. I was beside myself; I stood in that position. I cannot say how long I remained there. I got to the door. I found myself standing at the door. At the time I recovered myself I heard my wife talking downstairs. I went downstairs; I saw Graham and my wife and some people in the room. I remember my wife asking me for the pistol and me going with the policeman; they took me out of there and brought me to the station; I remember going there in a cab. I don't know how long I stayed at the station-house; they did not lock me up, they put me in a room. Mr. Pinhorn came to me and said "You will have to go to the hospital, Mr. Graham is going to make a statement." We waited downstairs in the hall with Mr. Leake and the constable about 20 minutes. Then Mr. Pinhorn came and the constable read the statement to me in the room. When he had read the statement over to me, I said "This is not so, it is a mistake. I want to talk to my friend." He said, "He is very low, you must not ask but one or two questions." I went in; when I got inside I started to talk to him about how the thing occurred, and Mr. Pinhorn said "You have got to ask your questions through me." Then I said "George, have we ever had a quarrel or a misunderstanding in our lives?" and he said" He is right." Then I started to put the next question. I said "Have not I always been your friend?" and he did answer the question. Graham said "Yes." Just as he said "Yes" Pinhorn pushed me into the hall and brought me in a cab back to the station-house. While in the cab and station-house I talked and told my story to I don't know how many policemen there. While in the station-house I asked the sergeant for my counsel, Mr. Roupell. They told me he would be in plenty of time in the morning. That is all I have got to say.

GUILTY .— Twenty Years' Penal Servitude.

ESSEX CASES.

Before Mr. Recorder.

Reference Number: t18871212-150

150. ELIZABETH JARVIS (16) and ANNIE YOUNG (18) , Burglary in the dwelling-house of Sophia Tolliday, and stealing a ring and brooch and 7l. in money, her property, to which

YOUNG PLEADED GUILTY .

MR. CARTER Prosecuted.

SOPHIA TOLLIDAY . I am a widow, and live at 4, Cook's Terrace, Barking Side—on Saturday, 26th November, about nine p.m., I left home and locked the door—the house and windows were all safe—I returned about 11 o'clock and found the front window open—I unlocked the door and went in, and found my bedroom in great confusion, and some dresses had been removed—I missed the property stolen, from a box in my room, and

a ring, a keeper, a brooch, and two sovereigns, one of which was an Australian one—I gave information at the station, and next evening, Sunday, I saw the two prisoners in custody at the station—they were charged with breaking into my house, and made no reply—this is my brooch, earrings, rings, and here are two sovereigns, one of which is an Australian one—I have known young five or six years—she had been in my house for four or five weeks before this, and had even slept in my bedroom—I have known Jarvis about six months—she is a companion of Young, and came occasionally to the house, but never slept there—she lived at Ilford.

GEORGE BLANK (Detective Officer). On 27th November I examined the Prosecutor's house—I received information and went with a policeman to Ilford, which is about two and a half miles off, and saw the two prisoners in High Street—I said to Jarvis "Is your name Jarvis?"—she said "Yes"—I said to the other "Your name is Young"—she said "Yes"—I took them to the station, and said I should detain them for breaking into a house at Barking Side—they made no reply—I made further inquiries, and returned at 12 o'clock, and said I should charge them with being concerned together in breaking and entering into No. 4, Cook's Terrace. Barking Side—Jarvis said "I don't know what you mean by burglariously"—Young made no reply—I took them in a cab to Barking Side with a constable—Jarvis said in the cab "What do you think I shall get for this?"—I said "I don't know"—she said "I will tell the truth about it; I wanted her not to get into the house, but she would" Young was sitting by her side and could hear that; she made no reply—Jarvis then said "If you look in a flower pot in the small room, you will find the brooch and earrings and gold keeper tied up in a little old handkerchief.

The prisoner Young. It was not Jarvis who said that it was I. The witness. It was Jarvis; you never opened your mouth—I returned to Ilford about 1.30, and searched a small room where they lived together, and found a number of flower pots—I turned them out and found an old handkerchief with this brooch and earrings tied up in a corner of it, and these two sovereigns were buried half way in the mould of the flower pot—I went back to the station, and charged the prisoners with burglariously breaking and entering 4, Cook's Terrace, and stealing a brooch, a gold keeper, and two sovereigns—Young said "I did not steal them."

JOHN COX CANNON (Police Inspector J). I am stationed at Barking Side—on 27th November I received information, went to these premises at 11 a.m., and found a pane of glass in the kitchen window, broken—I inserted my hand and drew back the catch without difficulty—in a room on the first floor I found a box with the lock broken—the garden wall is only three feet high, and from there a person could get into a field behind.

Jarvis's Defence. I did not know anything about it till the she told me on Sunday evening in the station that she did it. She asked me to go to her aunt's with her. I said "No, I am going home." She came home 20 minutes afterwards, but told me nothing. I went to bed while she was out. We went out next evening and were locked up. I did not say to the detective "I shall tell the truth about this; I wanted her not to get into the house, but she would."

Evidence for Jarvis.

ANNIE YOUNG (The prisoner). I have pleaded guilty to this charge—I know Jarvis; we have lived together at Ilford since Christmas—we were at Barking Side on Saturday, November 26, and I left her about a quarter of a mile from Mrs. Tolliday's house, and I went into the house and took this money—Jarvis was not with me; I did not see her till I got home—I did not tell her what I had done I had not mentioned anything about it before I went to the house—she did not say "Don't you get in"—she was not with me—I had left her quarter of a mile off—she had nothing at all to do with it.

Cross-examined. We had just come out at our door on Sunday night when we were arrested—he left us at the station while he made inquiries—when I was first charged in the street I denied this—Jarvis said "I do not know what burglary is"—I heard her ask the policeman in the cab how much she would get for it.

JARVIS— NOT GUILTY . YOUNG— Four Months' Hard Labour.

Reference Number: t18871212-151

151. GORNELIUS McCARTHY (41) and WILLIAM SIMMONDS (43) , Stealing a case and six dozen bottles of oil, of the London and St. Catherine's Dock Company.

MR. GRAIN Prosecuted.

CHRISTOPERS WILLCOX (Detective Dock Officer) I know the prisoners by sight also Jones, who is not here—the prisoners have nothing to do with Docks that I know of—on 15th November, at five p.m., I was in the Albert Dock, close to No. 27 shed, and saw the two prisoners and Jones loitering about—knowing them I watched them—they got up to the opening between sheds 17 and 19—the numbers are even on one side and odd on the other—the electric light is used there—they went across metals and went to the third class buffet, when I saw them all three drinking a pewter pot—they left by the side door and walked towards shed, stopped in conversation, and returned to No. 19 shed—they all three went under the opening—Simmonds took the end of the shed looking out, and Jones went into the urinal—McCarthy went after him and had a conversation—they came out and went to the platform at the back of No. 19 shed, when I lost sight of them—the next I saw was McCarthy carrying a case to Jones, who put it on his shoulders, crossed the rails and across a fence 3 feet high—I got hold of him and said "What have you got there?"—he looked me in the face, threw the case into my arms, which broke my hold, and he got away and ran between No. 17 and 19 opening—McCarthy and Simmonds followed him and escaped—I picked up the box and took it to the station—next day a constable brought McCarthy to the station, and I said "That is the man"—he said "I know nothing about it; I was at home at three o'clock on the 15th, and remained at home till nine o'clock on the morning of the 16th"—the box was opened and contained six dozen of Jacob's Oil—it was re-packed by order of the Magistrate and forwarded to Bombay.

Cross-examined by McCarthy. I know that you are not allowed to be employed by master stevedores and ships' people on account of things being missed while you were working on ships.

Cross-examined by Simmonds. It was shortly before 5 o'clock when I first saw you loitering about in the docks.

JOHN CONDON (Dock Officer). On 15th November, in the afternoon, I

saw three men near No. 31 shed—McCarthy was one of them; I knew him before—another was a man about Simmonds' size.

EDWARD GRINDALL (Dock Sergeant). I know the prisoners by sight—on 15th November, about 9 a.m., I saw the prisoners in the docks with a tallish man, coming off a barge as if they were going to work—I called the attention of the officer to them and saw no more of them.

CHARLES JOHNSON . I am a checker in the Albert Docks—on 15th November, about 7 a.m., I was checking some goods out of a railway truck, close to No. 19 shed—by the invoice there ought to have been a box of Jacob's Oil, marked with four marks in a diamond, sent to Phillips and Co., of Bombay, by the P. and O. Co.—it was not there.

JAMES WILKINSON (Policeman). On 16th November I received information, and at 2 o'clock I arrested McCarthy at Lilyput Road, Canning Town—I told him the charge—he said "You have made a great mistake; I was at home from 3 o'clock yesterday afternoon till 9 o'clock this morning"—to the best of my knowledge I had not mentioned the time of the robbery—he went with me to the docks to Mr. Hamilton's, where he was again told the charge, and repeated his former statement—I took him to Barking Road Police-station, where he was told the charge, and made the same reply—going from the station he asked me what time the robbery occurred, and I told him about 5 p.m.

GEORGE BINGLEY (Policeman). On December 9th, about 7.45 p.m., I was on duty in Alley Street, Canning Town, and from information I received I went to Simmonds' house, 3, Alley Street, and saw him in a back room and said "Simmonds, do you know what I want you for?"—he said "No"—I said "I shall take you for being concerned in stealing a box of Jacob's Oil"—he said "I heard about it"—he was placed with six other men at the station, and Mr. Willcox identified him.

The Prisoners' Statements before the Magistrate. McCarthy says: "I am not guilty; I know nothing about it." Simmonds says: "On 15th November I was taken on to go to work at Mr. Green's. I went to Albert Docks and worked up to 5 p.m., when we were ordered to put hatches on, and I got my money and went to get a drink in the hotel. I came out of the docks. I know no more about it. I cannot say the name of the ship."

Witnesses for McCarthy.

RACHAEL SIMPSON . I live in the same house as McCarthy—on 15th November he came in at 3 o'clock or a quarter past; I think it was a Tuesday—he stopped in till 9 o'clock or 9.15 next morning.

Cross-examined. I live in the next room—I know the day by the fog—there have been more foggy days than one—I was in till 10 o'clock at night; I must have known if he had gone out—he doesn't live there now, he lives next door—he works, but I do not know what at—he does not go out to work every day—he is not in the habit of coming home in the afternoon.

JOHANNA MCCARTHY . I am the prisoner's mother—I live now 10 doors from Mrs. Simpson, but at this time I lived in the same house—on 15th November my son came in at a quarter past 3—after a little time he had a little supper, and as he was not very well he went to bed, and next morning he went and had a little drop of stuff as he was not well.

Cross-examined. I remember it was the 15th, because my landlady was downstairs very bad, and sent me for a doctor—I am positive about the

time; I have a clock in the house; I am sure it was past 3 o'clock—I used to have half a house, but now I have only one room—when he came in he had a cup of tea in my bedroom and parlour combined—I did not say before the Magistrate "He had a cup of tea and went upstairs to bed."

Simmonds called—

GEORGE HAMILTON . I am a dock inspector, and live in the Victoria Docks—since Simmonds has been in custody I have heard that he was at work on the 15th and 16th.

Cross-examined. He was stevedoring one of the ships in the docks at No. 35 shed, which is on the same side as No. 19 shed, but over half a mile from it—a man working there as stevedore had no business at No. 19; he ought to take his money and go out.

Simmonds here handed in a paper from his employers, stating that he was at work on a ship on November 15th, and went back to work on the same ship on the 16th.

Simmonds' Defence. I went to work at 6 o'clock on the 15th, and finished at 5 o'clock. I then went to the hotel and had a drink with a comrade, walked out of the Docks, and went home. I was not seen by Willcox handling any case. The constable says he cannot recognise me as one of the three men who ran away, although he says I resemble one; if so, the man who resembles me must be the one that Willcox saw loitering about at 5 o'clock, which could not be me, because I was at work. We put the hatches on at 10 minutes past 5.

CHRISTOPHER WILLCOX (Re-examined by the JURY). It was shortly before 5 o'clock when I saw the prisoners; it was not at half-past 4—I first saw them opposite the British Indian shed, and the men were just leaving to get their money—it had not gone 5, but it was just before 5—a certain number of men are told off to put down the hatches, and the others go and get their money.

MCCARTHY— GUILTY .— Twelve Months' Hard Labour.

SIMMONDS— NOT GUILTY .

Reference Number: t18871212-152

152. EDWIN WEBB (19) , Feloniously wounding Frederick Peters, with intent to do him grievous bodily harm.

MR. WARBURTON Prosecuted.

FREDERICK PETERS . I live at 41, Becton Cottages, Becton—on Saturday night, 29th October, about 10.10, I went to the Dog and Gun in Vernon Street with a friend named Trott—the prisoner came in afterwards—I and Trott went into the skittle alley; while we were playing Webb and Bush came in swearing—I said to Webb that he ought to be ashamed of himself for using such filthy language—we left off our game and went into the bar—they came in and they began swearing again, and they pitched into a man, the master, called Tom—they went outside; Webb struck the man again, and the man went down the street—Webb went on swearing, and said I could have the same—he made a strike at me—I told him if he wanted a row he could have one, and I shoved him down—he got up again, and we had a tussle together, and I felt a knife go across my upper lip—I said to Trott "I am stabbed"—as I was walking away Webb came round in front of me and stabbed me on the top of my left eye—I did not see the knife in his hand—I fell down after the second stab—I bled profusely—I was taken to Poplar Hospital, and remained

there four weeks—I know the prisoner quite well; we had no quarrel previously—he was sober.

ELLEN COLVILLE . I am the wife of John Colville, a labourer, of 64, Burnham Street, Canning Town—on the evening of 29th October I was at my door opposite the Dog and Gun—a row went on in the street, and I went over and saw the prisoner and Bush rowing—they were having a fight, and the landlord turned them out—I and my husband remained inside a few moments; afterwards the prisoner came back—my husband asked if he had done anything to him—he said "No, but I have got something here that I will give the b—to night"—he put out his hand, and he had something up his sleeve; I thought it was something in a piece of paper—after the public-house was closed I went into the street—I saw Peters go up to the prisoner and say "What do you want to row about? if you want a row you had better have one; did not you say you would knock this woman's eye out?"—the prisoner said "No, I did not; you are a b—liar"—with that Peters struck at him, and Webb nearly fell to the ground—they closed together, and both fell, the prisoner under—Peters halloaed out "I am stabbed"—I saw the prisoner running down the street, and some one after him.

CHARLES HUBBARD . I live at Canning Town, and am a professional harp player—on 29th October I was in the bar of the Dog and Gun when the prisoner and Bush came in—I saw Peters in the skittle alley—I came out with him—the prisoner came up, and they were having a few words Peters said to him "You are two cowards for two men to get on to one"—all at once I saw them struggle together, and Peters said "I am stabbed"—they were on the ground together—the prisoner got up and ran away—I ran after him seeing Peters bleeding—I could not catch him, and hearing Peters' screams I came back and found him standing against the shutters helpless—he was taken to the doctor's—when they were talking about fighting I heard the prisoner say to Peters that he had got something in his pocket that would do all the b—lot.

AVERY CLOUGH WALTERS . I was house surgeon at Poplar Hospital on 29th October, at 12 at night, when Peters was brought in in an unconscious state; his face was partially covered with two or three wraps covered with blood—I removed the wraps, and found a clean cut vertical wound about three-quarters of an inch in extent on the outer side of the left eyebrow penetrating about two and a half inches downwards and backwards towards the ear—it had produced a fracture of the temporal bone—there was another wound extending from the nose to the lip; that was an oblique superficial wound—they were such wounds as must have been caused by a sharp instrument—he continued in a dangerous state for 14 days, and under my care—he is quite well now.

WILLIAM GOLDING (Detective). On 30th October I apprehended the prisoner for violently assaulting Peters, also stabbing him—he said "I know nothing about it"—I took him to the station where he was identified—he said nothing.

The Prisoner's Statement before the Magistrate. "I don't remember anything about it; I was too drunk at the time."

GUILTY .— Eighteen Months' Hard Labour.

Before Mr. Justice Stephen.

Reference Number: t18871212-153

153. CHARLES LEZEMORE (43) was indicted for, and charged on the Coroner's Inquisition with, the manslaughter of George Warman.

MR. GRIFFITHS, after opening the case, at the suggestion of the Court, offered no evidence.

NOT GUILTY .

There was another indictment for a common assault upon the same person, upon which also no evidence was offered.

NOT GUILTY .

Reference Number: t18871212-154

154. MARY ANN MULROY (30) , Feloniously administering to John Mulroy phosphorus, with intent to murder. Other Counts for attempting to administer it with intent to murder, and for administering it so as to endanger life.

MESSRS. POLAND and MEAD Prosecuted; MR. BLACKWELL Defended, at the request of the Court.

The prisoner being totally deaf, the REV. MR. DUFFIELD, by request of the Court, wrote down the evidence as it was given, and showed it to the prisoner.

MARIA GEOGHEGAN . I live at Powis Square, Bayswater—the prisoner was in my service as a domestic servant from 11th June for three months and a fortnight—she was under notice to leave on 4th November—on 25th October she was confined at my house—on 1st November she went to the infirmary—I had no notion that she was going to be confined till half an hour before—I got clothing for the child from Miss Rye—first my own doctor was called in, and afterwards the parish doctor—after she went to the infirmary I did not know where she was going; she was not coming back to me, I could not have taken her back.

Cross-examined. The prisoner was in a most excitable condition the day she was taken ill and the night before.

GERTRUDE GUERNSEY . I am midwife at Kensington Infirmary—on 1st November I received the prisoner and her child—the child appeared to be of full time—she remained under my care till 7th November, when she was sent to another ward—the child was baptized George—on 14th November, the day before she left, I saw her—she said she had nowhere to go unless she went to her late mistress's, who she supposed would take her back, but she was not quite sure about it—during the time she was under my care she seemed to treat the child very kindly indeed.

HENRY HAWKINS . I am gate porter at Kensington Infirmary—on 15th November, about 3 p.m., the prisoner produced a pass from the steward for me to let her through the gate—I have my book with the date of her discharge—she left with her child about 3 o'clock in the afternoon.

WALTER ATKINS GROGONO . I live at the Broadway, Stratford, and am a registered medical practitioner—on Tuesday night, 15th November, about 10 o'clock, I received some information, in consequence of which I went out of my front door on to the doorstep, and I saw the prisoner with her baby in the area—I heard the baby cry previously to that—the prisoner got out of the area carrying the baby—I spoke to her; she made no answer, but went obliquely across the road to the side of the churchyard—I followed her, and then Police-constable Berkin came along—I spoke to him—he took the prisoner and the baby to the West Ham Police-station—there I discovered a strong odour of phosphorus, which appeared to come from the child's mouth—the child's clothing in front was wet—I had the mother and child placed in a dark cell; I found the outside and the front part of the clothing luminous, showing that

some kind of phosphorus had been used—the wet on the child's clothes was as if the child had vomited—I smelt the child's mouth; I have no doubt there had been phosphorus in the mouth; I found no phosphorus actually in the mouth, I examined it for that purpose—the prisoner said "I come from Kensington, and was going to a Mrs. Smith, Market Place, Romford," to leave her child there—it was nearly an hour from the time I first saw the child to the time I left it—during that time the child was crying, but otherwise appeared all right—the constable has pointed out to me the place near the railings of the church; that is where I gave her into custody—this is a bottle labelled "James's Phosphor Paste," for destroying rats, mice, blackbeetles, &c.—phosphorus is a poison; this is a preparation of phosphorus, and is a poison; it would be poison for a child three weeks old—the result of this going into the stomach would be, in all probability, death—no ill effects resulted; the child was perfectly well afterwards.

Cross-examined. I followed her across the road—as soon as the constable came up I gave her into custody—I kept my eye on her the whole time—I am perfectly certain of that—I did not see her throw away anything—phosphorus, or any preparation of phosphorus, has a strong smell of garlic—I do not suggest that the child actually swallowed any part of the phosphorus; I take it the phosphorus was so pungent in the child's mouth as to produce vomiting; I think the child did not swallow any—I found traces of phosphorus on the child's clothing and round outside the throat—I saw a luminous appearance and one or two small particles of something—if a child vomits without anything of this sort there is very often a sour smell—if milk turned sour on the stomach it would be of an acrid smell—I know the difference between phosphorus and the other smell—phosphorus has an acrid smell, but it is pungent—the child had a pink head-square and white clothing—the door of the dark cell was shut completely; light may have come in—if the child had vomited milk curdled, you would not have got the white luminous fumes coming from it—there was luminosity with white fumes—I saw nothing in the way of luminosity with white fumes from the child's mouth—I should not have expected to find traces of phosphorus in the child's mouth if the child had vomited immediately—I should think the child had vomited immediately—phosphorus paste is put down because rats and other animals eat it readily; death is the result, I believe—I have no experience if they do eat it readily—I suppose that is the object of getting this stuff and laying it down—they experience nausea immediately, I believe—I do not know if the immediate result is pleasant—the vomit was ordinary child's vomit.

HENRY BERKIN (Policeman R 66). I am stationed at West Ham—on the night of 15th November I saw the prisoner carrying her baby, being followed by Dr. Grogono—he made a statement to me; I was in uniform—I asked her what she was doing down a doctor's area—she said "I only went there to give the child the breast"—she was taken to the station—the inspector and the doctor saw her there again—the charge was written and handed to her—she read it, and said "I only went there to give the child the breast; oh dear no, I naturally did not do it"—she told me at the time she was very deaf—on Saturday, 19th November, at 3 o'clock p.m., I searched inside the St. John's Churchyard, in the Grove, opposite Dr. Grogono's house—I there found this bottle produced,

labelled "Phosphor paste"—it was lying about a foot and a half inside the church railings from the footway, as near as possible to the place where I saw the prisoner with Dr. Grogono on Tuesday evening, the 15th—there was no cork in it; it was as it is now.

Cross-examined. I did not search for four days after—I was first called by Dr. Grogono—the prisoner was not searched at the station—I believe no money was found on her.

By the COURT. The female searcher searched her at the station—I do not know what was found; it was handed to the inspector.

WILLIAM ROOKS (Inspector K). The prisoner was brought to the station about five minutes past 10 on this night, and after I and the doctor had some examination of the child, I came to where the prisoner was, and wrote on a piece of paper "The doctor says the child has had phosphorus"—I handed that to the prisoner—she read it, and said "I know nothing about it; I was in a situation at 11, Powis Square, Bays-water, where the child was born; my mistress, Miss Gehagan, provided clothing for the baby, as I had none; I was afterwards taken to Kensington Infirmary, and I left there to-day; I came from London to Stratford in an omnibus, and I was going to Mrs. Smith, Market Place, Romford, to see if she would take my baby, as it is cheaper to keep babies the country than in London"—pointing to the baby's head-square she said "That was put on to-day for the first time; I know nothing about any phosphorus being used"—I then wrote on a piece of paper "You will be charged with attempting to poison your child by administering phosphorus"—I handed that to her—she read it, and said "Who will charge me?"—I said "I will"—she said "How do you know? you did not see me do it"—she was shown the charge after it had been written down, very much in the language I have used—after she saw it she said "I naturally did not do it"—I was present when the female searcher searched her; she found on her 2s. 1/4 d.—such phosphor paste as this can be purchased at any chandler's shop for a penny a bottle.

MILLICENT MUNDAY . I am Superintendent of the Linden House Refuge, at the Green, Stratford—in consequence of information on 23rd November, I went to the West Ham Police-court—I obtained permission of the Magistrate, and I saw the prisoner first in the policemen's room before she went into the dock—I could not make her hear—I took the baby from her and kissed it, and then I wrote asking her how she could do it—she said "I was starved with cold and hunger"—I first of all said in writing I was a friend; I had come to her as a friend to help her; she had not a friend in the world; I would be her friend—after that it was she said she was starved with cold and hunger—at that time she said "I was going to take the baby to Mrs. Smith, Market Place, Romford"—then she went in the dock, and the Magistrate remanded her for a week, and said I might take her away—I took her to our Refuge for a week, from 23rd to 30th November—before I left the police-court on that day I said "You would not dare to attempt to poison your baby again?"—she said "No"—she remained at the refuge between the two remands, and I brought her back on the 30th—I saw a good deal of her; I watched her carefully—she behaved very well indeed; I can speak in the highest terms of her behaviour—she was committed for trial on the 30th—after she had been committed, I obtained permission of the Magistrate to speak to her alone again—she had the child with her—I

wrote down twice asking her if she attempted to poison her baby—to each of those questions she answered "No; look how well and strong it looks"—I then said "If you did not poison your baby, who did it?"

By the COURT. I had her for a week—she could have gone away if she had liked; we had no locked doors—I was not her bail—cases are often remanded to us for a week.

By MR. BLACKWELL. If she had attempted to go away I should have communicated with the police, and had her locked up at once—I had told her I would be her friend if she would be willing to come with me, and be obedient and tell the truth—I did not say "Tell the truth," but if she would be willing and obedient we would be her friend—after she was committed for trial, I told her she had better tell the truth, and then I would be her friend and come and see her at the Sessions—at the time I said "If you did not, who did?" I had not said to her "You had better tell the truth"—I cannot quite remember whether at that time I had said "It is better for you to tell the truth"—I think I can swear I did not—I was anxious to get her to say the truth, but I did not put those exact words to her—I can swear I said nothing to her of that effect; I was anxious to get the truth out of her—I swear I did not use any form of words or in any way say it would be better for her to tell the truth before she gave the answers that form the rest of these conversations—I don't think at any time I had told her it would be better for her to tell the truth; all my conversation inferred that—I did not say anything to make her believe it would be better for her to tell the truth—I did not say "If you tell me the truth I will be your friend and come and see you at the Sessions"—I said I would be her friend anyhow—before I got these answers I had not at any time or in any way conveyed to her mind that it would be better for her to tell the truth, that I positively swear. (The COURT was of opinion that nothing had been said to the prisoner amounting to such a threat or promise as to exclude her statement.)

By MR. MEAD. When I said "If you did not do it, who did?" she did not answer—then I said to her "Had you any other woman with you?"—she said "No" most emphatically—then I wrote "Did you try to poison your baby?"—(I did not keep the pieces of paper I wrote on, I tore them up at the time and threw them into the fire in the policemen's room)—she then said "Yes, I did; I put the phosphor paste in its mouth, and then I was frightened, and wiped it out with its little nightdress"—it was then I promised her I would not forget her, and would attend at the Sessions, and would be her friend, whatever happened, and if I was allowed I would bring her back to the Refuge after the trial, that was the last thing, I think, I said to her.

Cross-examined. I was anxious to find out the truth as much for the sake of the Magistrate as anything—I thought the woman would plead guilty when I brought her up on the 30th—I was most surprised she did not—I heard at the police-court, I think the inspector told me, that there was another woman near where the prisoner was—the prisoner told me sobbing that she put the paste in the child's mouth and got frightened, and wiped it out immediately.

JANE SMITH . I live at Market Place, Romford, about eight miles from Stratford, I should think—three or four years ago the prisoner lodged at my house when she was out of a situation for about 10 days, and left telling me she was going after a situation—she came to me again—I

did not know on this night she was coming to me—if she had come to me on this night I should not have taken her in, I had not a room.

Cross-examined. Stratford is on the way from London to Romford.

The Prisoner's statement before the Magistrate.—"Look at the child now, it is quite healthy. I never gave it any poison."

MR. JUSTICE STEPHEN considered there was no evidence to go to the Jury as to the intent to murder. MR. BLACKWELL submitted that there was no administration, as the poison was removed again immediately.

MR. JUSTICE STEPHEN was of opinion that was for the Jury to determine.

GUILTY of administering poison with intent to aggrieve, injure, and annoy .— Three Month's Hard Labour.

Before Robert Malcolm Kerr, Esq.

Reference Number: t18871212-155

155. FLORENCE PALMER (25) . Unlawfully wounding Fanny Shepherd. Second Count, for a common assault.

MR. JONES Prosecuted.

FANNY SHEPHERD . I live with my husband at 65, Leyton Road, Stratford, and am the prisoner's sister—on 5th December, between 3 and 4 in the afternoon, the prisoner brought a man to my house and I told her she was not to make a common place of my house—she then pretended to go out, but instead of that she went into my bedroom—I did not go in there, but when my husband came home I heard a confusion in the passage and found that he had found them in the bedroom—the prisoner and the man were running about not knowing where to go, and my husband ordered them out, but they would not go—the prisoner then went upstairs and remained there some time, and then she came down and said "What is all this bother about?"—I said "It is all about you and you know it"—she then picked up this little knife with which I peel my potatoes, and said "Take that, then," and she said she would have my brains out, and would gouge my eye out—I put up my hand and got a cut on the cheek and on the nose—I bled dreadfully—the prisoner's language was disgusting—when I found everything was quiet I went for a constable at Maryland Point, and when I came back with him she was still in the house—she said in the constable's presence she would blind me, and she tried to hit me, and it took three to hold her back—she threw the knife on the floor, and the constable turned on his light and picked it up.

Cross-examined by the prisoner. The man was not in the house and did not open the door when you came in—I did not take the paraffin lamp off the table and throw it at you.

WALTER DROHONOGUE . I am a surgeon at Stratford—on 5th December, about 10.30, I was called to the West Ham Police-station, and there saw the last witness—she was suffering from a clean incised superficial wound on the right cheek, about an inch and a half in length—it was caused with some sharp instrument, such as the knife produced.

WILLIAM WALTON . I lodge at the house of Mrs. Shepherd—on 5th December I was called downstairs, and there saw the two women fighting, and saw blood on the prosecutrix's face, and wiped it off—I did not see any wound inflicted—I separated them, and the prosecutrix was kept in her room sometime, and she was in there three-quarters of

an hour afterwards when I went out—neither of them were drunk; they were very much excited.

Cross-examined. I came down and pushed you down—your sister did not complain to me that she was stabbed—I told you to come to my apartments to keep you from her, as I knew you would have done something else to her if you had got near her.

By the COURT. I did not hear anything of a man—I was not at home in the afternoon.

WALTER SHEPHERD . I live at 65, Leyton Road, Stratford—I remember this disturbance between my wife and the prisoner on 5th December—I went in between 1 and 2 o'clock and found the prisoner had been drinking, and that there was no dinner, and I ordered her out—I had to go out again on business, and came back again in about an hour, and found the bedroom door barred inside—I got it open about three or four inches, and said "Who is here?" and heard voices—I then went and said something to my wife, and when I came back I found the prisoner and a young man there, and I turned the young man out—he was not in the house by my permission or consent.

JEREMIAH GILES (Policeman). I am stationed at West Ham—on 5th December, about 9.15, the prosecutrix came to me, and I went with her to Leyton Road, Stratford, and there saw the prisoner in an upstairs back room—I said "I shall take you in custody for assaulting Mrs. Shepherd"—she said "I did not assault her; she fell on the fender, that is how she cut her face"—she then got up off the chair, and before I could prevent her she struck the prosecutrix in the face—after I had taken the prisoner to the station I returned to the house, and prosecutrix handed me this knife—Idid not see her pick it up from the floor.

GUILTY on the Second Count. Four Months' Hard Labour.

KENT CASES.

Before Mr. Recorder.

Reference Number: t18871212-156

156. JOHN THWAITES (23) , Unlawfully obtaining by false pretences a quantity of copper nails, and MARY ROWLESTON, Unlawfully receiving the same.

THWAITES PLEADED GUILTY .— Nine Months' Hard Labour.

MR. GRAIN Prosecuted; MR. GEOGHEGAN defended Rowleston.

On behalf of Rowleston, MR. GEOGHEGAN submitted that there was no evidence to show that she knew the goods to have been obtained by the false pretences alleged against Thwaites. The Q. v. Wilson decided that it was not enough to allege merely that the goods were unlawfully obtained, but it must be alleged and proved that the defendant knew them to be obtained, by the false pretences alleged against the principal. The RECORDER considered that the objection prevailed, and the Jury accordingly found Rowleston

NOT GUILTY .

Reference Number: t18871212-157

157. WILLIAM PAYNE (39) , Burglary in dwelling-house of Margaret Mary Sergeant, and stealing 11 spoons and other articles.

MR. COLE prosecuted.

ALICE BROOKS . I am general servant to Mrs. Sergeant, of Plumstead—on 9th November I went to bed at a quarter to 11—I was the last up—all

the doors and windows were fast and safe—I came down next morning at a quarter to 7—I found the catch of the kitchen window broken, and two inches open from the bottom—I missed a quantity of silver spoons and forks, some clothing, and other articles—these produced are some of them.

EDWARD WEST (policeman R). On 10th November, about 6.20 a.m., I was on duty in Albion Road, Woolwich, and saw the prisoner coming from the direction of the prosecutrix's house, and about half a mile from it—he was carrying a bundle—I said "I am a police officer; what have you got there?"—he said "It is my own; I shan't show you"—I said "You will have to go to the station with me"—he went with me about 50 yards, when he threw the bundle down, and said "If you want to know what it is, you will have to carry it," at the same time he tried to escape—I saw him put his hand in his pocket and try to take something out, which I at once snatched, and found this jemmy and centre-piece—further on I searched the bundle, and it contained the articles mentioned—I took him to the station, and charged him—he did not say how he became possessed of the things.

THOMAS CLARKE (Police Inspector R). I examined the premises, and found that an entry had been effected by forcing the bottom sash of the front that an entry had been effected by forcing the bottom sash of the front kitchen window, and I found marks corresponding with this jemmy—in the back kitchen I found this small piece of candle and a box—he refused his address.

Prisoner's Defence. I know nothing about the stealing. The things were given me by a man to carry, done up in a piece of rag.

GUILTY .— Eighteen Month's Hard Labour.

Reference Number: t18871212-158

158. SAMUEL LAURENCE and ANNIE REED , Stealing a leg of mutton, the goods of Thomas Daynes Wood, the master of Laurence. Second count, Feloniously receiving the same, to which LAURENCE PLEADED GUILTY .

MR. FOSTER Prosecuted; MR. MUIR defended Reed.

THOMAS FRANCIS (Police sergeant R). On 19th November I was in plain clothes in Catherine Grove, Blackheath Hill, and saw a cart at some distance down the road; the prisoner Laurence was in it, and Reed by the side of it—Laurence drove past me and I saw the name of Wood on the side of the cart—I followed Reed and said "I am a police officer, what have you got in that bundle?"—she said "What is that to do with you?"—I said "I want to see it"—She said "You can," and handed me a leg of mutton, a piece of beef, and two sausages wrapped in a sheet of brown paper—I said "Where did you get these?"—she said "I shan't tell you"—I said "You will have to come inside and see the Inspector"—I took her into the station, told what I had seen, and asked Reed where she got it—she said "I found it round by the dyer's in a heap of rubbish"—I then went to Mr. Wood's; Laurence was called in and charged and taken to the station where Reed was, and he said that she did not know it was stolen—Reed was charged and said "I don't know anything about it."

Cross-examined. I am positive I told her I was a constable before asking her what was in the bundle—I have made inquiries and find that she lives with her sister, who is perfectly respectable as far as I know—I know nothing against Reed's honesty.

HENRY HALL WILLOUGHBY . I am manager to Thomas Day Wood, a butcher, of Blackheath—Laurence was in his employ—I identified the leg of mutton by the cut, and its general appearance, but could not speak positively to the other articles.

WILLIAM MILLER (Policeman R 42). I was in charge of the station when Reed was brought in—she was not charged—I asked where she got the meat—she said "Round by the dyer's in Catherine Grove on a heap of rubbish."

MR. MUIR called

SAMUEL LAURENCE (The prisoner). I am 20 years old—I have known Annie Reed about a year—I gave her this mutton as a present, and did not tell her where I got it—I know her as a respectable young woman—she did not know that this mutton and other things were stolen.

Cross-examined. I have known her a year, but not very intimately—I know the constable Francis, and yet I say that I only know her occasionally.

By the COURT. I got out of the cart, and took the leg of mutton out and gave it to her.

THOMAS FRANCIS (Re-examined). The meat was in a brown paper Parcel, but I did not see her receive it—it was under her arm.

REED— NOT GUILTY MR. MUIR stated that a former master was willing to take Laurence back in his service. LAURENCE— Three Days' the Imprisonment.

Before Mr. common Serjeant.

Reference Number: t18871212-159

159. JOHN ELLIS (16), GEORGE BOSWELL (18), and GEORGE MEAD (21) , Stealing an overcoat, the goods of Thomas Ramsay.

MR. A. METCALFE Prosecuted.

ISABELLA JONES . I am a servant to Mr. Ramsay, who lives at Wickham Road, Brockley—about 10 o'clock a.m. on 10th November I was in the dining room—I saw Mead looking down into the area; he had an empty sack round his waist—I went into the hall for about two minutes, and then I saw Mead afterwards going down the hall steps with the sack over his shoulder; it had something in it—I saw Boswell outside standing by the post of the adjoining house—I saw another man with a barrow, not one of these three—after I saw Mead go down the steps he went into the Wickham Road—I told my young master, Claud Ramsay—when I saw the man coming down the front steps the door was open; it was open the whole time—we missed Mr. Richard Harris Ramsay's coat that had been hanging in the hall before—I had seen it that morning.

Cross-examined by Boswell. I saw you outside the door.

Cross-examined by Mead. I saw you going down the steps with the sack across your shoulder—something was in the sack—I did not see you go up the hall steps to take the coat.

CLAUD RAMSAY . I am the son of Mr. Ramsay, who lives at 29, Wickham Road, Brockley—on 10th November the last witness spoke to me, and I went out into the road—after I had walked about 100 yards, and when going down a side road, I saw the three prisoners all walking together—Ellis was wearing this overcoat of my younger brother's which was stolen—I walked behind them—I saw Boswell, I think, with a sack; I am not sure—eventually with assistance I caught hold of all

there of them—I told Ellis I should charge him with stealing the coat; he had taken the coat off then—I held him till I met a constable, and gave him in custody, and then went to the area of a house in St. Peter's Road which I had seen them pass—they were walking in that direction—in the area of a house I found this coat, which Ellis had been wearing; I did not see him take it off, I only saw him put his hands into the pockets—I lost sight of them for awhile; I went round a corner—I did not go for a policeman, I went into two shops and asked them to come and assist me—when I saw Ellis again he was in the area of this house, with the coat off, and the coat was in the corner.

GEORGE LENNY . I live at 178, Brockley Road, and am a poulterer—I assisted the last witness in catching Boswell, who was just going to run off—he did not run; I stopped him on the run—he said "I have done nothing wrong, old man"—I stopped him on the run—he said "I have said "So help me God, I have done nothing wrong"—he had this empty sack under his arm—my brother-in-law took Mead.

Cross-examined by Boswell. I did not take you to the station, I let go of you—I saw Mr. Ramsay in the area with Ellis, and I went to his assistance and took him into custody—you stood there, and my brother-in-law came up, and I said to him "Take that man"—we want on with Ellis till we met a constable, and then I handed him over.

ARTHUR HARRIS (Detective P). I met the prisoners detained by the two witnesses and the brother-in-law of the last witness—I took Ellis and called on the local tradesmen following behind to see the others to the station, where they were charged—in the reply to the charge Mead said the lad had made a mistake—Ellis said "He has made a mistake, governor, I did not steal the coat"—Boswell said, "We were going out to get some turf"—I searched Boswell at the station, and found this sack and knife on him—I found there pawn-tickets on Mead, and two pawn-tickets on Ellis.

ISABELLA JONES re-examined. This is the sack of a similar one to the one I saw.

Ellis, in his defence, said he saw the other two men with a barrow, and that passing the area in Peter Street, he saw the coat lying there, and went down to look at it, when he was apprehended. Boswell and Mead denied all knowledge of the coat.

GUILTY

ELLIS**†then PLEADED GUILTY to a conviction of felony in October, 1886, in the name of John Grogan, at this Court; BOSWELL†to one in December, 1885, at this Court; and MEAD** to one in October, 1886, at Kingston. Twenty Months' Hard Labour each.

Reference Number: t18871212-160

160. KITTY TAYLOR (37) , Stealing a jacket, the goods of George Edwin Smith.

MR. A. METCALFE Prosecuted.

GEORGE EDWIN SMITHM . I am a draper, of 75, Hither Green Lane, Lewisham—on 21st November I had a cardigan jacket hanging up in my doorway—I saw it safe at 5 o'clock in the afternoon—I missed it about 7—I did not sell it—I identify this as the one.

JOHN MERRIT . I am assistant to Mr. Philips, a pawnbroker, of 62, High Street, Deptford—this jacket was pledged with me for 1s. 6d., the First thing in the morning of 22nd November, by a female, in the name

of Ann Gray, of 7, King Street—I do not recognise the prisoner—I did not ask her whether it was her property.

WILLIAM BLAKE (Policeman 491). On 23rd November, at a quarter to 10 in the evening, I met the prisoner and two men in Manor Road, Brockley—a charge was made against one of the men at the police-court, but he was discharged—I asked the prisoner what she had in her apron; she said she had a few things that a lady had given her to make up to sell—I took her to the station, and in her apron found this roll of flannel, and a shoulder of mutton—she said a gentleman had given her the flannel—she could not say the street where he lived, or the number of the house—these boots were found on the man; the prisoner said they were hers—there were two towels in her basket, and a piece of bacon.

JANE COLEMAN . I am female searcher at the Brockley Station—I searched the prisoner, and found this pawn-ticket in her pocket—it is the duplicate of that produced by the pawnbroker—she said it was her husband's ticket, for a jacket she had pledged for him for 1s. 6d.

The Prisoner. I bought the ticket from the woman at the public-house.

ELIZABETH WILKINS . I am employed by Harry Wood, a draper, at 7, Westow Hill, Upper Norwood—this roll of flannel is his property—I cut it myself from a larger roll—there are about 20 yards—I last saw it safe on Wednesday, 23rd, when I put it down at the end of the counter, at 11 o'clock—I missed it when the constable came to me on the Saturday, about 1 o'clock, three days after—I did not know till then that it was out of the shop—it had been in front of the counter; not outside.

The Prisoner in her Statement before the Magistrate, and in her defence stated the flannel was given her by a gentleman; the jacket she pawned for a man the lived with, to get stock for his basket in the morning.

GUILTY .— Judgment respited.

Reference Number: t18871212-161

161. JANE HARPER (46) , Stealing a bottle of whisky and 7l., the property of Henry Robert James Perch, in his dwelling-house.

MR. A. METCALFE Prosecuted.

HENRY ROBERT JAMES PERCH . I am a lieutenant in the Royal Navy, and live at 69, Blackheath Hill—the prisoner has been our general servant and was so on 24th November—I and my wife occupy the whole of the house, and the prisoner would be the only other person in the house on the 24th, with the exception of a little daughter—I have a cupboard, in which I kept a bottle of whisky, which was safe on the morning of 24th—I was away during the day, and from what my wife said to me on my return I gave the prisoner in custody—I and my wife have a key to that cupboard, and nobody else—after having given the prisoner in custody on the charge of stealing the whisky I missed about 7l. from a dispatch box in my bedroom—I had last seen that safe at half-past eight on that morning, when I had occasion to give my wife some money out of it—it was a locked box, and the bedroom was also locked—my wife and I both have keys of the bedroom, but I only have a key of this dispatch box—when I went away I left the room locked and also my dispatch box, and took the key with me—when I missed the 7l. the box was locked—I have not got it here—it is a wooden box; this is the key of it—I do not

find that the lock of the box has been tampered with in any way—I have not been able to trace either the money or the whisky—the prisoner denied both when she was charged.

By the COURT. I said to her "Here is another bottle of whisky gone; I must put a stop to it; I will give you in custody"—she said "I don't know anything about it"—the money inside the dispatch box was fastened up in bags and tied with a sailor's knot—there were two bags; one bag contained between 23l. and 24l. in Jubilee money, and the other bag contained 12l. and five 5l. notes—the 5l. notes were left and also 5l. in gold—when I left the money at eight o'clock in the morning it was tied up in the bag in this way—that is how I always tie up my bags—when I missed the 7l. the bag was tied as it is now, and four sovereigns and two half sovereigns and the five 5l. notes left in it—the other bag contained about 23l. in the new coinage—that was in an old-fashioned purse, and was tied at each end with a reef knot—I found the reef knot had been disturbed, and a landsman's knot substituted, but none of that money had been taken—I always put my initials "H. R. J. P." on any notes I receive, and I suppose that frightened the prisoner, and she did not take them—I cannot say whether the bag which had contained the 12l. was tied in the same way when I found it as when I left it; I was rather excited and confused.

MARIA LOUISA PERCH . I am the prosecutor's wife—on the 24th I had occasion to go to the cupboard, where the whisky was kept, two or three times; it was a general cupboard—the last time I went there was about three o'clock; the bottle of whisky was then safe—I then went out for a walk, taking the key of the cupboard with me, and leaving only the prisoner in the house; the little girl was not at home—I returned about half-past four and went to the cupboard to get some biscuits, and missed the bottle—I then said to the prisoner "Jane, do you know anything about this bottle of whisky; where is it?"—she said "The cupboard is locked, is it not?"—I said "It is"—I said no more then till my husband returned.

THOMAS FRANCIS (Police Sergeant R). I was called to Mr. Perch's house, and examined the cupboard, and found some marks against the lock as if someone had inserted a knife there—that lock could be opened by a knife—the cupboard stands out some distance from the wall, and it has a single door, and between the door and door-post there is room enough to insert a knife, and they could then put it behind the lock and push it back—I also examined the box upstairs, in which the money was kept, and found no marks whatever upon it, either upon the lock or box—the box is about a foot and a half long—the prosecutor charged the prisoner with stealing 7l. in gold and a bottle of whisky—she said "I am innocent; I don't know anything about it"—I have searched for the money and whisky, but have found no traces of it.

By the COURT. When Captain Perch showed me the bags they were as they are now.

The Prisoner's Statement before the Magistrate. "I am innocent of this; I never saw the money box while I was in that house. I don't know what kind of a box it was. As for whisky I have never handled a drain since I have been in Blackheath."

The prisoner repeated the same statement in her defence.

MARIA LOUISA PERCH (Re-examined). The prisoner was in my service from 30th July.

NOT GUILTY .

Reference Number: t18871212-162

162. JANE HARPER was again indicted for stealing a chemise and a nightdress of Henry James Robert Perch, her master.

MR. A. METCALFE Prosecuted.

MARIA LOUISA PERCH . The prisoner's box was kept in her bedroom; it was kept locked, and she had the key of it—this chemise and nightdress (produced) are mine; I have never given them to the prisoner or to anybody else.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. I did not say if you took the trouble to mangle and wash them you could have them—I have not been in the habit of giving you things.

MARY ANN FOXLEY . I am female searcher at the Greenwich Police-station—on 24th November I searched the prisoner, and found three keys upon her, which I gave to Sergeant Francis—I also found upon her 2s. and a purse.

THOMAS FRANCIS (Police Sergeant R). I went to the prisoner's room on the night of the 24th, and again on the 29th, and with one of the keys which were handed to me by the last witness I unlocked a box in that room, which was pointed out to me by Mrs. Perch, and found in it this chemise and nightdress with Mrs. Perch's name on them—I showed them to the prisoner on the morning of the 29th, and she said Mrs. Perch threw them down to her and said she could have them—the prisoner's room was at the top of the house—I also tried the keys on the cupboard and box, but they did not fit.

MARIA LOUISA PERCH (Re-examined). My daughter went to school in the early part of September, and I have worn these things ever since then.

Cross-examined. I did not give them to you after my daughter went to school.

By the JURY. They are summer garments, and are very thin; they are not worth much in point of money, but they are in point of use—they were left off by my daughter, and she gave them to me to wear for thin summer garments—my daughter is 22 years of age—I have four daughters altogether—I kept these things in my drawer, which was not locked; any person pulling open the drawer could get at them—I had missed them, but did not think much of troubling about them—the prisoner did all the washing—my daughter gave me the things just before she went to school; she is a governess at a school at Worthing.

The Prisoner's Statement before the Magistrate. "As for those two articles found in my box, I will take my oath that Mrs. Perch gave them to me the day after Miss Minnie went to school. She was not out one hour; when she came in, the clock had just struck 4."

The prisoner in her defence repeated that Mrs. Perch had said she could have them if she took the trouble to wash and mangle them.

GUILTY .— Eight Months' Hard Labour.

Reference Number: t18871212-163

163. THOMAS O'TYLER (60) PLEADED GUILTY to obtaining by false pretences from John Clements the sum of 30l., with intent to defraud.— Twelve Months' Hard Labour.

SURREY CASES.

Before Mr. Recorder.

Reference Number: t18871212-164

164. GEORGE HARLEY (29) PLEADED GUILTY to unlawfully uttering two counterfeit coins.— Nine Months' Hard Labour.

Before Mr. Justice Stephen.

Reference Number: t18871212-165

165. PAMELA PERRY (27) was indicted for the wilful murder of her new-born child.

MESSRS. POLAND and MEAD Prosecuted; MESSRS. PURCELL and WILLIAMS

Defended.

GUILTY of concealing the birth .— Six Months' Hard Labour.

Reference Number: t18871212-166

166. ALBERT BISHOP (22) , For a rape on Mary Eades.

MR. DE MICHELE Prosecuted.

GUILTY of an indecent assault .— Six Months' Hard Labour.

Reference Number: t18871212-167

167. KATE COLLYER (18) was indicted for, and also charged on the Coroner's Inquisition with, the wilful murder of Norah Ada Scott alias Collyer.

MESSRS. POLAND, MEAD, and PHILLIPS Prosecuted; MESSRS. GEOGHEGAN and LAWLESS Defended.

ADA MOCATTA . I live at 21, Cambridge Square, Hyde Park—I am a member of a local branch of the Charity Organisation Society—by that means I became acquainted with the prisoner in February last; she wanted a letter for a hospital—I made arrangements for her to enter a home at Mrs. Harrier's, 7, Pope's Road, Brixton—she entered that Home on 4th March—I visited her there twice before her baby was born, which was on 28th May, and I visited her once afterwards—I saw the baby when it was 10 days old—she asked me to arrange for the child to be taken care of by a nurse, and I did so for a week, and then to be taken by Mrs. Remnant, of West Grove Cottage, Walton-on-Thames—before it went away the prisoner behaved to it most affectionately—I have used the expression "She was tremendously fond of the child"—before it went to Walton I told the prisoner that I thought I knew of a lady that would adopt it—she said she would rather work for it; keep it herself—the child went to Mrs. Remnant's about 29th June—in the meantime the prisoner went on 21st June to a lady in Eaton Square as wet nurse—I afterwards received a letter from her in which she spoke of the child with great affection—about the beginning of August I went abroad—I received a letter from the prisoner while I was abroad—I have not that letter; I lost it—this letter (marked G) is similar to the one I lost.

ADA REMNANT . I live with my husband at West Grove Cottage, Herschell Road, Walton-on-Thames—I know the prisoner—I have seen her write twice—this letter (E) was written in my presence—this other letter (G) I received from the prisoner; it is her handwriting—these other letters (A, B, F, and L) I also believe to be her handwriting.

MISS MOCATTA (continued). In a letter I received from her while abroad, she told me that she was going to let her cousin adopt the baby, and in that case a man called Frank would marry her, and she wanted me to write to Mrs. Remnant and let her give it up, shortly after my return

from abroad, I think about the second week in September, I saw the prisoner at a friend's house, having made an appointment—she then told me that this cousin was going to adopt the baby—I said I haw written to the cousin, and she had said she was no cousin of hers, and she would not think of adopting the baby—I asked the prisoner what she would telling me one story and telling Mrs. Remnant another one—she then said that this man Frank would marry her if the child was taken to a home; that he would see about the home—I said I would give the child up to the cousin myself, or not part with it—she did not suggest the name of any home—she then asked me what she should do—I said that she might work for 15l. too, and give me the 15l.; that the young man Frank might give 15l. too, and I would give 10l. to make up 40l., and Mrs. Remnant would adopt the baby—she then said she would try to find a Place, she would think about it and write to Frank—that interview took Place about the middle of September—between that and 21st September I received two letters—that was the next I heard of the prisoner—I was at Sunbury then. (The first letter, dated from 27, Nursery Road, Brixton, stated that she had succeeded in getting a place with Mrs. Seymour, of 1, Mandeville Place, where she would have to see to all to begin with, and that If she got on in two months she would get 17l.; that she had said she had Been a nurse, not daring to say a wet nurse, and that she had written to Mrs. Sewell asking her not to say anything about it, but to speak as well as she could for her, and that she (the prisoner) wished Miss Mocatta would see or write to Mrs. Sewell asking her to do what she could for her, and also to write to Mrs. Seymour; that she had been to see Mrs. Morgan, but that she was out; that Miss Mocatta would be surprised to hear she was at Brixton, but that she did not like to go back to her cousin so she had written to her, and should stay there till she got something to do, which she should do at this place; that the lady there was very nice, and that there was one dear little baby; that she should be pleased to hear from Miss Mocatta what she thought, but that she was almost sure she would approve of what she had done. In a postscript she added that she did not intend going near Mrs. Harrier although she was in Brixton.) Two or three days after I received this letter "B." (This was dated from the same address, saying that she had not got a place; that she had not got the one in Mandeville Place as she had not old enough, but that she was going to try again that day; that she would not be able to pay Mrs. Morgan 40l., as she had had a quarrel with her sweetheart, and should not see him again, the fact being that she could not settle down and marry; that she had no doubt she could manage somehow, and if Miss Mocatta would not let her have the baby she could not help It; she could not pay for her, so that would Miss Mocatta please let her know what was to be done at once; she could not be guided any longer; if she could have done as she wished at first she should have settled to something before; that she did not know how Miss Mocatta could think she could get 6s. weekly to send to Mrs. Remnant, as she was not earning anything, and that she must either have baby herself or put her away somewhere where she would not cost her much; but that if Miss Mocatta insisted on keeping her at Mrs. Remnant's, she could not pay anything for her; and a postscript requested Miss Mocatta not to come to see her as she was hardly ever at home during the day.) After receiving that I wrote to Mrs. Remnant, and on 21st September I received a telegram, in consequence of which I went

to Vauxhall Station, where I met Mrs. Remnant, who had the baby with her—I went with her to Scotland Yard, where I saw the police—I expected to meet the prisoner at Vauxhall Station at 6—after I returned from Scotland Yard I saw her in the waiting-room at Vauxhall Station with Mrs. Remnant—I asked the prisoner what she was going to do with the child—she said "l am going to Brixton to get some one to look after it while I go out to work"—Mrs. Remnant said "I shall go with you"—the prisoner said "I shall take the child to its father at Brighton"—I asked Mrs. Remnant to keep the child for a day or two, and then I or she would give it up to the aunt—Mrs. Remnant said she could keep it no longer without having money—I think she said three weeks were in arrear at 7s. a week—I spoke to Mrs. Remnant alone and she went outside—then I tried to frighten the prisoner in several ways; I said a certain policeman was coming in and would sign his name to a document, and would take a good look at her, and if she dared do anything he would be able to follow her up, and some words like that—Mrs. Remnant came in with a constable, and the document "E" was written—I saw the prisoner sign her name to it. (This document was read as follows:—"September 21st, 1887. I, Ada Remnant, deliver up the child Ada Norah Scott, aged three months, to Annie Scott, the mother, in perfect health, in the presence of the following witnesses—Annie Scott, cook, Vauxhall, Ada Mocatta.") The prisoner then turned round and said to me, "Where will you take me to?"—I turned to Mrs. Remnant and said "Is she mad?"—I then took the prisoner and the baby in a cab for the purpose of finding lodgings—I took them to Mrs. Russell, 24, Molyneux Street, and left the prisoner and the baby there in the lodgings—next morning, Thursday, September 22nd, I went there—the prisoner was not there—I saw the baby—the same evening I received from the prisoner a letter, which I burnt—in that letter she complained of Mrs. Russell, said she was drunk, and that was chiefly why she left during the day, and that she would return the same evening or the following morning—on the following morning, Friday, 23rd, I saw the prisoner at Mrs. Russell's—the prisoner said to me "I have received a letter from a lady and am going into a situation next Thursday"—she did not give me any particulars that day as to where the situation was—she said she could pay for the baby if she was in a situation—I offered to pay the first month—I then went with her to Mrs. Fleming's to get other lodgings until she should go to her situation, and for the baby to be taken care of there—I was going to find it another nurse up to the Tuesday—it was arranged between us that I should have to find a nurse for the baby when the prisoner went to a situation—I then introduced the prisoner to Mrs. Morgan, who lived in the neighbourhood, with whom she might spend part of her time every day while waiting for a situation with the baby—on Saturday, 24th September, I went to Mrs. Morgan in the afternoon and saw the prisoner and her baby there—in the prisoner's presence Mrs. Morgan said that the milk had been drugged, she thought—I don't think anything was said as to where the milk came from—Mrs. Morgan said in the prisoner's hearing that she had tried the milk and had felt very sleepy after it—the prisoner said "Mrs. Russell may have put aniseed into it"—I left then and went back later in the day—I saw the prisoner alone with the baby—I said "Of course I believe in you, but it would look very black for you if the baby became worse,

because Mrs. Remnant would say that you had drugged it"—next day, Sunday, the 25th, I saw the prisoner again twice, first at 10 o'clock in the morning—I made an appointment to meet her next day at 10 o'clock at a photographer's in Molyneux Street, Edgware Road, in order that the baby might be photographed—that Sunday evening was the last time I saw the baby alive—on the Sunday morning I told her that she could get the child into a home at no expense to her or into a workhouse after it was 12 months old, and it would be well looked after—in case of its going into the workhouse she would have to keep it at her own expense till it was a year old—that would not apply to it if it went into a home—if she kept it at her own expense till it was a year old it would then be well looked after at a workhouse, and could be boarded out—she could get it in the workhouse before it was a year old, but it would not be well looked after, and I thought she had better not put it into the workhouse till it was a year old—they take them into the workhouse at any age, but they are not looked after very well when quite young—after they are 12 months old they are boarded out—I said "If you will give me 10l., or even 5l., I will keep it altogether"—she said "I will go into a situation and work for it"—on the 26th, Monday, at 10 o'clock, I went to keep the appointment in Molyneux Street, but could not find her—she was not there at Mrs. Fleming's, nor the child—was unable to find her—on Tuesday morning, the 27th, I received this letter "F" from her. (This stated that she had taken the baby to Brighton, and had seen its father, who she would almost swear was married, as he seemed much put out at seeing her; that she told him he must do something for the baby, and that he said he would pay for it if she would put it where he wished, with an old woman whom they both knew; that she had consented, as she had had enough of paying for it herself; that it was settled, and she was going into a place to-morrow, and that she hoped Miss Mocatta would not think her ungrateful.) I tore the envelop up; I did not notice the post-mark—after receiving that letter I went with Mrs. Morgan to 27, Nursery Road, Brixton, about 10 o'clock or shortly after—I saw the prisoner there—I said "What have you done with the child?"—she said "I have taken it to its father at Brighton"—I said "I don't believe a word of it"—I lost my temper, and called her murderess, and said she made away with her child—she only looked insolent—I then charged her with taking Mrs. Morgan's shawl and brooch, and said I would have her taken—she for that—she then gave the brooch to Mrs. Morgan, who was there—she said "The shawl is with baby, and I will return that another day"—I begged her to let me have the baby, and I would adopt it altogether, and she should not be bothered with it again, and I gave her a copy of the rules of the Founding hospital—she said she would keep them and show them to the baby's father—to my proposal to adopt she said "It is too late; you should have told me so before"—I again threatened to send for a policeman—I said I must go to Brighton with her, and that it I saw the baby in anyone's care I would not worry her for it again—she agreed to go with me to Brighton, and we three took train from Brixton to Victoria station—she tried at Brixton to get us into a Hammersmith train—at Victoria she went on ahead; I called out a cab was coming, and she came back again—ultimately I took two return tickets to Brighton for Mrs. Morgan and her—next day Mrs. Morgan wrote to me; in consequence I went to Scotland Yard to have her boxes

stopped—on the following Sunday, October 1st, I saw something is Lloyd's Newspaper, and then I went to the mortuary at Battersea, and identified the child—articles of wearing apparel that I had given the child were shown me by the police—the child was not then wearing them.

Cross-examined. There are three or four platforms at Brixton Station; trains for different places draw up at the same platform—from the time I interested myself in this girl until 27th I brought her into connection with Mrs. Remnant, Mrs. Russell, and Mrs. Gurney, not Mrs. Fleming, I never had much to do with her, she is Mrs. Gurney's daughter—the prisoner took a strong objection to Mrs. Russell because she drank, and because of her moral character—she had to spend the night on a chair with her baby—I introduced her to Mrs. Gurney, Mrs. Remnant, Mrs. Fleming, Mrs. Morgan, and Mrs. Russell within three or four months—the agreement with Mrs. Remmant about 6s. or 7s. a week was mentioned when the prisoner went first as a servant at 12s. a week for the first three months—out of that she had to pay Mrs. Remmant 7s. a week—it was not until after 27th September I offered to provide for the child without payment; until then there was always a monetary condition attached to my offer—on 23rd she agreed to send what she could for the baby's support when she had found a situation at Clapham Junction at 15l. a year, and I said I was going to find a place for the baby on the Tuesday—I agreed to pay for the first month—until 27th, when she said it is too late, I always expected that she would contribute something to the baby's support—I suggested the piano she had at her aunt's should be sold to pay some expenses—during the month I offered to pay for the child she would have had no expense about it—that was providing she could not support it—I put it that "Supposing you cannot provide for it I will support it for a month:" I thought she was going into a situation, and knew she could not pay at first, until she got her month's wages, and then she would have to pay for it herself—during that month she would have had nothing to pay—I did not tell her I should expect her to repay the outlay—I think I told her this when she told me she was going into this situation on the Friday—she agreed to the terms, she said she would go into a situation and work for the baby—two or three times when I and Mrs. Remmant were discussing about the baby she said the baby was hers and she would sooner have it—when I accused her of being a murderess I had lost my temper—I was very much annoyed at the way she treated me, she looked so insolent—I was very anxious then about the baby.

ADA REMNANT (Recalled). About June I received a communication from Miss Mocatta, and on 29th June I saw the prisoner and Miss Mocatta at Vauxhall Station, and arranged to take charge of the prisoner's baby at 7s. a week—I took the child home with me and was paid the weekly money up to 29th August by the prisoner—about 18th August I received this letter "G" from her. (This stated that she would call on Thursday or Friday week and bring the money for baby; that she had good news at last, as one of her friends had offered to take baby, and that of course she would be only too glad for them to do so, as they would bring her up and put her to a good school, and do better for her than she could do; that she was sorry in one way for this, as she was sure Mrs. Remnant was very fond of the baby; but she was going to be married as soon as she could leave baby, so she thought

it would be much better to let the baby go to them, and she could see it sometimes; that the baby would only need one set of clothing, and that her friends would buy her clothes afterwards.) The address was East Moulsey, where the lady was living to whom she was wet-nurse—I went to see her on 20th August—I asked her when she wanted to take the baby away and where she was going to take it to—she said "The man I am going to marry wants to put the baby away; he won't have it with me"—she said "He is going to pay a sum of money to put it in some home in London"—I said "What home?"—she said she did not know—I advised her not to let the man have the baby without letting her know what he was going to do with it—she said she would let me know when she wanted the child—the next time I saw her was 29th August—she came to my house—she said "I am leaving Mrs. Sewell on their return to London"—she wanted to take the child away that afternoon by a train that left Walton at half-past 4, it had then turned 4 o'clock—she told me some people were waiting at Esher Station—I said "Why cannot they come here?"—she said she did not want them to come to my house—I proposed I should go to Esher Station to Bee them; she objected to my going—I refused to allow the baby to go with her—she went away, and on 7th September I received a letter from the prisoner saying she was going to meet Miss Mocatta, and asking me to meet Miss Mocatta at my house on Wednesday night—I destroyed the letter—on Wednesday, the 7th, Miss Mocatta came; she left after an interview with me, and then the prisoner came—she said she wanted to take the child away to a cousin's—she said she thought Miss Mocatta might have told me her plans, what was to be done—I asked her what position the man was in and what he could afford to pay—I told her I would take the baby and bring it up as my own for the sum of 40l.; she said she had only to write and ask the man for the money—I did not ask for his address—she said a cousin had offered to adopt the baby, and I asked for the address, and she wrote down this: "Care of Mr. Collier, 116, East India Koad, Poplar, E."—she said that was her cousin who wanted to adopt the baby—I told her if on inquiry it proved satisfactory they could have the baby—I said I would write to Miss Mocatta in order to learn her plans and forward the address to her, so that she could telegraph the prisoner to have an interview with her—she told me her cousin would write to me or she would write to me herself and tell me her plans the next day—I heard no more till 21st September, when I received this letter "I" from the prisoner. (This was dated from 27, Nursery Road, Brixton, and requested Mrs. Remnant to be at Vauxhall Station next day with baby at 6 o'clock p.m., when the prisoner would meet her; that she had written to Miss Mocatta and told her she could not pay for the baby any longer, and so the prisoner would have her herself, but need not tell all her plans to Mrs. Remnant or Miss Mocatta.)—In consequence of that letter I communicated with Miss Mocatta, and on the 21st September I went to Vauxhall with the baby—I accompanied Miss Mocatta to Scotland Yard to see if I could keep the baby—ultimately I gave the child up on receiving a piece of paper signed by the prisoner.

Cross-examined. The prisoner owes me 1l. 1s. for the keep of the child.

By the COURT. The child when I gave it up was perfectly well.

JANE RUSSELL . I am a widow living at 24, Molyneux Street,

Edgware Road—on Wednesday, 21st September, Miss Mocatta brought to my house to lodge there the prisoner and a baby—they stayed with me Wednesday and Thursday, and till Friday evening, 23rd, when they left—I am not aware that any soothing syrup or aniseed was ever put into the child's milk—the child was quite well while she was with me—on the Thursday, the day after the prisoner came to me, she was out all day—I had only one room and one bed—she preferred to sleep in the chair the first evening—on Thursday night she occupied the same bed with me.

Cross-examined. The first night she did not wish to go into bed, but slept with the baby on a chair—she did not tell me till three or four minutes before she left that she was going; she left quite unexpectedly—I fed the baby in the daytime—this is the first child I have taken care of barring my own—it is the first child brought to me by Miss Mocatta—I fed the child in the daytime and the prisoner fed it at night—it is not an unusual thing to give aniseed to children, especially if they suffer from stomachache—I never knew anything dangerous about it.

ELIZABETH FLEMING . I live at 14, Providence Place, and am the wife of Thomas Fleming—on night of 23rd September, Miss Mocatta brought the prisoner and her child to lodge at my house, and they remained with me till the morning of 26th September—the prisoner said she was sick and tired of children—she left me on Monday morning, 26th September, at 10 o'clock, taking the baby with her—she said she was going to meet Miss Mocatta—she said nothing about not returning again—she took a bundle with her, but did not take all the child's clothes—I did not feed the child at all while she was with me—I gave the clothes that were left at my place to Mrs. Morgan—Miss Mocatta sent for them.

Cross-examined. The prisoner slept at my house the three nights, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday—she slept in rather a small room, there was another lodger with her with her baby in the same room—she told me she had been at a wet-nurse's place—she said she hatod the idea of suckling children.

ELIZABETH MORGAN . I live at Marylebone, and am the wife of Alfred Morgan, a farrier—on Friday, 23rd September, Miss Mocatta introduced the prisoner to me—she came on Saturday, bringing the baby, and spent the day with me—she brought a feeding bottle with milk—the child was fast asleep, in a very heavy sleep—I asked the prisoner what sort of milk she used; she said condensed milk; she said Mrs. Russell gave it to her—I tasted the milk after that and noticed something—I asked her what she had in the milk—she said Mrs. Russell must, have put some aniseed in it—I said "It is not aniseed"—I put the milk out of the feeding bottle into a Worcester sauce bottle that had been cleaned; I washed it in the prisoner's presence—I put the same stopper in it and took it to a chemist—I brought it back and ultimately gave it to Dr. Kempster—I took the feeding bottle to the chemist—it was arranged that I should take care of the baby until a nurse was got for it—on Monday morning, the 26th, I expected the prisoner to breakfast; she did not come—in the evening I went to Cecilia Patterson at Nursery Road, Brixton, after eight o'clock, who told me something—I received a telegram next morning—I communicated with Miss Mocatta and went with her to Brixton—after I saw the prisoner at Brixton I went with her and Miss Mocatta to Victoria Station, and then I and the prisoner went to Brighton—when we

reached there she took me to 11, Victoria Road (that is near St. Nicholas; we went towards Hove after coming out of the station)—she-said she was taking me to the place she had put the baby to, and that Mrs. Fox lived there—she asked me to stand outside while she went in, because Mrs. Fox would think it strange her going there again so soon—she spoke to the servant, who opened the door, and I heard the name of Fox mentioned, but I did not hear distinctly what was said—when the prisoner came away from the house she said she would return again in about half an hour, and that Mrs. Fox had possibly gone to see the father of the child—she mentioned the word "him"; "gone to see him," meaning the father of the child—I asked her to let me have the baby to take back to Miss Mocatta—she said it was too late; she should let it remain where it was—I then went with her to a telegraph office—while there or coming out I lost sight of her, and did not see her again at Brighton—I went to 11, Victoria Road, and made inquiries there, and failed to find her there—I went back and reported to Miss Mocatta, and on the Saturday I identified the child with her at the mortuary.

Cross-examined. I identified my shawl on the child; I have no doubt about the shawl; I could have sworn to it anywhere—when I spoke about the milk tasting very queer the prisoner appeared very anxious and said "I hope it won't hurt the child," and she ran upstairs too see if the baby was all right—I took the child to a doctor about nine o'clock at night—I had tasted the milk about one o'clock—I did not say before the Magistrate that the doctor said something to the effect that the child would not wake up so fresh if it had taken poison—he said it would not wake at all had it been drugged—I said "Afterwards we took the baby to a doctor, who said we need not be alarmed," and that the child would not wake up so fresh if it had been drugged—that was on Saturday night—I don't know if a child is given soothing syrup if it is peevish and fractious; I never gave any to my children.

CECILIA PATTERSON . I live at 27, Nursery Road, Brixton—I made the prisoner's acquaintance at the house at Brixton where she was; she lodged in the same street as I did in September—on Monday evening, 26th September, about half-past eight, I saw her—she said she had been down to Brighton and had taken her baby there, to the father, I believe, who had promised to provide for it—she said she and the father had taken the baby together to some old lady they knew, and had left it with her, and that the father had signed an agreement that he would always provide for the child—I asked to see the agreement; she said she would show it to me; she looked for it, but could not find it—before that I had seen Mrs. Morgan—the morning after that interview with the prisoner I telegraphed to Mrs. Morgan—about a week after the interview, as near as I can remember, I received this letter in the prisoner's writing. (The letter requested her to send the prisoner's boxes to Brighton Station, that the would send the address if she thought the letter would reach her all right; that she was going abroad, and should have started by the time the letter reached the witness, but that her boxes could be sent on after her, and that after her return to England, which would be very soon, they would be only too glad for the witness to make her home with them; that she should write on Tuesday, if possible, from France, and tell her everything; that she would send the 3s. when she wrote again, and it requested her to put a letter in one of the boxes, and address them

to Mrs. Shernon, Brighton Station, left till called for. The postmark of the letter was Bedford Street, Brighton.)

Cross-examined. The prisoner had mentioned Miss Mocatta to me—she had not told me her address—I knew I could hear of Miss Mocatta through Mrs. Morgan, and I knew where Mrs. Morgan was to be found—my first intimation that the prisoner was at Brighton was when I rereceived the letter—I did not at once tell Mrs. Morgan; I knew Mrs. Morgan had taken her there.

Re-examined. I did not know where Mrs. Morgan lived before she called on me on the Monday night, the 26th; I had never seen her before that—I was living at 10A, Nursery Road—the prisoner took lodgings opposite at No. 27, and after she went away I took her room there—at the time Mrs. Morgan came I was at 10A.

By MR. GEOGHEGAN. The prisoner did not show me a letter she had received from Miss Mocatta—I read none of those letters, nor letters from anyone, and she never showed me those letters.

ROBERT SKINNER . I am a carpenter employed in Battersea Park—I recollect hearing about the child being found in the park on the day it was found, Thursday, the 29th—on the Monday previous, about half-past 12 or a quarter to 1, I was in Battersea Park, near the Albert Bridge, in the middle of the day—there are a number of stones there, the remains of Burlington House—I saw an old woman there sitting on the stones; I did not see what she was doing, she seemed to be knitting or something, moving both arms—I noticed a young woman walking, a few paces to the right hand of her, from the Albert Bridge end towards the steamboat pier; she was carrying what looked like a child in her arms—I did not see her face, only her back; she was similar to the prisoner—that spot is about 300 yards, I should think, from the refreshment rooms.

Cross-examined. I am employed in the park as a carpenter—this place is about 500 yards from the old Civil Service Cricket Ground beyond the refreshment rooms—that is kept by an Italian, Brooke or something—I only saw the young woman, it might be, five minutes—Row is the gardener—the old lady, as far as I could see, was doing something with her hands as if she were knitting.

GEORGE ROW . I am a gardener in Battersea Park—on Thursday, 29th September, about half-past 2 p.m., I was working close to a plantation near the refreshment room in Battersea Park—I went into the plantation—six feet from the path, from the fence, I found in a bush the dead body of a child, about 3 feet or 3 feet 3 inches from the ground, about that height—the child was in a sitting position, the same as it would sit in an easy chair, fully dressed with the exception of shoes, socks, and hat; its feet and head were bare—I took it to the gatekeeper, and conveyed it to the police-station, and from there to the mortuary—I gave it into the custody of Saxby, the Coroner's officer.

Cross-examined. There is a seat on the path by the side of the fence, and the bush is 6 feet from the fence at the back of the seat—there is an ornamental flower-bed in front. (The witness pointed out the position of the bush on the plan.) We started the flower-bed in June—we bed out in June with geraniums and bedding stuff, and they remain all the summer—the body would have been 15 or 16 feet from that flower-bed—there are two flower-beds near the refreshment rooms—if persons going to the refreshment rooms wished to see the flower-beds, this is the nearest place

they would go to—there are something like eight seats there—people go there to read and work and lounge; that is what it is principally used for—you could not see the child from the path; it was at the back of the bush from the path—whoever placed it there would have had to get over the fence to do so—I should think it would be about 60 yards from the refreshment-room building itself in a straight line across the paths and the green; it might be 80 yards—the flower-beds are about 60 yards from the building—as gardener I know the regular people who come there day after day—I never saw an old woman sitting and knitting constantly—an old woman came constantly to that part of the park; she would sit on one of those eight seats every day from the middle of July; she might have missed a day occasionally—I have been a gardener there 23 years—the old stones of what used to be Burlington House are about 300 yards from this seat, down the river frontage, the north-west corner—since 8th October, on the Saturday morning, I have not seen this old lady, although from July until October she was always there.

Re-examined. She was a person in a very humble station of life; she had no home to go to, she told me that—she was a woman who sat in the park doing knitting—there was nothing remarkable in that; I have seen them habitually sitting in the park and doing knitting.

HENRY SAXBY . I am coroner's officer for the parish of Battersea—on 29th September I took charge of the body of a child which Row brought to the mortuary at half-past 3 p.m.—that is the body Miss Mocatta and Mrs. Morgan came and saw on the Sunday, and on which Dr. Bond and Dr. Kempster held a post-mortem examination—I received this bottle from Dr. Kempster on the 1st, and this one on 5th October, both filled—I handed them both to Dr. Stevenson on the 5th—I have a receipt for them.

THOMAS BOND , F. R. C. S. I am surgeon to the Westminster Hospital—on 1st October, with Dr. Kempster, I made, a post-mortem examination of the body of a female child—the last witness was there, and pointed out the child—the body was well nourished, and was that of a child about five months old—I found no marks of injury externally or internally—there was externally a good deal of hypostatic condition at the back of the buttocks and legs, and other parts of the body—the body was of a pinkish red colour, from the blood having gravitated to that part—that would occur after death—on opening the skull I found a good deal of veinous congestion of the brain, and membranes of the brain; the brain was otherwise quite healthy—I found the lungs congested, and especially were they congested at the base and the back part of the lungs—I found the right side of the heart full of blood, and also the veins leading to the heart turgid with blood—the left side of the heart was empty—I found all the other organs of the body perfectly healthy—I examined the mucous membrane of the stomach, it is perfectly healthy; it was stained from congestion—there was no food in the stomach, but about two teaspoonfuls of mucous fluid—I gathered the contents of the stomach and also the stomach, and put them in a bottle—I also took parts of the intestines, and liver, and spleen, and put them into a bottle, and they were sealed in my presence and handed into the custody of the last witness—I considered the death was due to exposure—it might have been caused by narcotic poisoning, but the pupils were normal; I should have expected to find contracted pupils in death from a narcotic; I should also have expected to find food in the

stomach, in which the narcotic was given—there was no trace of narcotic in the stomach; there would be nothing in the condition of the stomach which would indicate a narcotic even if it were there.

FELIX CHARLES KEMPSTER , M. R. C. S. I was present when Dr. Bond made a post-mortem examination—I agree with what he says—Mrs. Morgan handed me a bottle containing a fluid—I gave it to the Coroner's officer, having previously sealed it—I handed the bottle containing the contents of the stomach to him after sealing it up.

Cross-examined. I saw a shawl in which the baby was wrapped; it was a good thick, warm shawl—I tasted the milk, it tasted of catsup; I heard it was a Worcester sauce bottle; it tasted of something else—the bottle had not been properly cleaned.

DR. STEVENSON. I am one of the official analysts at the Home Office, and I also occupy a position at Guy's Hospital—on 6th October I received from the Coroner's officer two sealed bottles; the first contained three portions of the viscera of an infant and three teaspoonfuls of fluid—on analysis they did not show any unhealthy or unusual appearance; there were no remains of food or any special odour; I could detect no trace of morphine or poison—the second bottle contained seven ounces or a quarter of a pint of fermented milk—on distillation I discovered about a tenth of a grain of alcohol, and it had a peculiar spirituous odour—it contained traces of morphia, about a tenth of a grain in the seven ounces, no aniseed—a dose of a tenth of a grain of morphia would be a dangerous dose for a child of five months if it had not been accustomed to it—if given several hours before death it would be possible for me not to find traces of it in the interior of the stomach.

Cross-examined. Most of the soothing syrups are made of opiates—Q. The sugar fermented, would that account for the odour? A. I should think it had been added in some form of tincture, I cannot say quite what it was; some part of the odour may be due to the fermentation of the milk—it was a fine, large, healthy child, I understood; I should think it had not been dosed with opiates, I mean, not for any lengthened period.

WALTER BEAN (C 29 of the Brighton Borough Police). Before the 8th October I received information from London, and about half-past 2 on Saturday afternoon, October 8th, I saw the prisoner in North Street, Brighton—I said "Annie"—she said "My name is not Annie"—I said "Is it Kate Collyer?"—she said "Yes, it is"—I said "I shall take you into custody and charge you with the supposed murder of your child in Battersea Park"—she said "I did not murder it; is it dead?"—I took her to a police station—she there gave me an address that turned out to be correct, and she gave her name as Kate Scott.

JAMES MALONE (Inspector of Police). I went to Brighton on Sunday, 9th October—I saw the prisoner in custody—I told her I was a police-officer, and was going to take her back to London—I said "I am going to charge you with the murder of your child by abandoning it in Battersea Park on Monday, 26th September"—(I made this note at the time)—she said "Yes, they told me when I was brought here"—on the way to London in the train she said "I did not know the child was dead; I meant to leave it somewhere, and thought of Hyde Park first; then I thought there were too many people there, so I took the train from Victoria to Battersea Park. I got there about 12, and strolled about, not knowing where to put it, when I saw a woman sitting on some stones

knitting with string; she said to me 'What is the matter?' I told her my trouble, and she said 'Have you got any money?' I said 'Yes, 5s. 6d.;' she said 'Give me 5s. and I will put it down for you. I will leave it where it can be found, and if I cannot do that I will take it to the workhouse, and if it is put on the steps they are bound to take it in.' Then I gave it to her, and went straight to the pier and took the boat to Westminster, and then the train to Brixton. After I left Mrs. Morgan in Brighton I walked about all that night, Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday; on Friday an old gentleman, a German, took me home. I got work on the following Wednesday, and on Thursday I left him and took the lodgings at 63, William Street, where I remained until the policeman took me on Saturday, as I was going back to work after dinner. On the Monday that I took baby away I pawned some things at a pawnshop in John Street, Edwards', I think, and got 5s. for them. The things pawned were a red pelisse and child's bonnet, and, I think, a dress, in the name of Ann Sweetman, John Street." I cautioned her before she made that statement—I went to 11, Victoria Road; I could find no Mrs. Fox there; no one of that name was known there.

Cross-examined. I made inquiries at Brighton as to her story as far as it related to Brighton, and as far as I could find out it is quite true—I had not succeeded in finding the pawnbroker when before the Coroner's jury—I have found him since then and he is here now—it was true she pawned the things, but it was for 3s. instead of 5s.—I have 5s. in my book, there may be some mistake.

MRS. MORGAN (Re-examined). Nothing was left behind with me.

MRS. FLEMING (Re-examined). The prisoner left behind her a woollen baby's bonnet, and the baby's summer hat—I did not see any on the child's head when she left; she wrapped her shawl over it—I am not aware if anything was on the child's feet; I did not see her leave the room, I was downstairs—this bonnet was not left behind with me—I identify it as belonging to the child; I saw it once.

By MR. GEOGHEGAN. I saw the mother and child going; the shawl was wrapped round the child completely, enclosing head and feet and everything—the mother took a bundle with her; I don't know what that contained—the prisoner was with me three days.

JOHN ALLAN BRIDGE . I am a pawnbroker, of 20, John Street, Marylebone—between 9 and 10 a.m. on Monday, 26th September, someone (I could not swear it was the prisoner) came and pledged this child's hood for 3s. in the name of A. Sweetman—she did not have a child with her—to the best of my belief the prisoner is the person, but I would not swear.

CECILIA PATTERSON (Re-examined by MR. GEOGHEGAN). The prisoner borrowed 2s. from me—Mrs. Morgan did not call at my house before ever the prisoner came to me, nor before the prisoner went to Brighton—I said before the Coroner "I had seen Mrs. Morgan the evening before Annie Scott came to me, and in consequence of what she said I telegraphed to Mrs. Morgan"—they both called the same evening.

JAMES MALONE (Re-examined by MR. GEOGHEGAN). I do not know the prisoner's age—she stated she was 18 when charged.

GUILTY of Manslaughter —Recommended to mercy by the Jury on account of her youth.— Five Years' Penal Servitude.

Before Mr. Recorder.

Reference Number: t18871212-168

168. WILLIAM ROBINSON , Unlawfully entering by force certain premises of the Midland Railway Company and expelling them therefrom.

MR. BESLEY Prosecuted; MESSRS. FRITH and BURNEY Defended.

JOHN TRUMAN BURTON . I am agent of the Midland Railway Company at their coal depot, Walworth Road—they purchased under Parliamentary powers some houses bordering on the depot, among which was No. 136, Walworth Road—I let that house on June 4th, 1886, to the prisoner, under this agreement, and saw him sign it in my office in St. Pancras Station—his occupation is not described, nor did he tell me what he was—this is a form of agreement which the Company adopted, it is for three years—he was to pay 4l. 10s. a quarter, the first quarter on 29th Sept.—when the first quarter was up I went there and found the house let out in tenements—there were eight rooms and about three lodgers—I tried to get the money by distraint, but the lodgers claimed the goods—the prisoner was not there—I had applied to him for the rent, but got none—when the second quarter fell due, at Christmas, I went there again, and it was occupied in the same way—I met him in the road and asked him for the rent—he said he would call and pay when convenient, but he never did—at Lady-day three quarters were due, but I got no payment, and no June rent—the Company then issued this writ (produced), and there was judgment—this is the Inquisition (produced)—on 24th September the Sheriff gave us possession—there were then two tenants on the premises, Nieman, and a woman upstairs, Mrs. Wadey—I showed them both the reason of my being there, and required them to pay their rent to me—it was arranged that I should call on Monday morning, the 26th I did so, and it was stated that Mr. Robinson would be there later on—I went at 10.20, and the prisoner was there—a woman lot me in, and I saw three men in the passage—they were described at the police-court as the defendant and his cousin, and a man named Irving—Mr. Bell was also there—when I got inside, Robinson ran downstairs and said "You b—, what do you do here?"—I said "I am here on behalf of the Sheriff, on behalf of the Midland Railway Company"—I had the Inquisition in my hand—he seized me by my throat and said "You b—, I will settle you, I will serve you the same as landlords in Ireland are served"—I got away from him and said if he came with me and got a constable he could read the Inquisition himself—he seized me with both hands by my throat violently—I went and got a constable two or three hundred yards off; Robinson was swearing all the way, and said that if ho knew where my office was he would come with a gang of men and do for me—he read the Inquisition and said "It is only a b—garnishee order"—the constable said "You have your remedy, it is a civil case"—I went to the house; Nieman, who was inside, spoke through the parlour window——the door was fastened, and the same people were there—Nieman said "You shall not come in"—Robinson said that if Nieman did not open the door he would burst it open, and he pushed his shoulder against it, but it would not give way; the two others helped him, and it flew open—it was then closed against me—I remained outside a quarter of an hour, and heard an altercation inside, and heard Robinson say that he was there, and meant to stay there—Nieman afterwards let me in—Robinson was still there with his men—I wont away and went to the solicitors—I have not got possession now, the premises are still occupied

by Robinson's tenants, and neither he or anyone else has paid sixpence or any of the costs of the proceedings.

Cross-examined. I have not been resisted by force by the defendant since September 26th—the agreement was not prepared by him but by him, but by me, it is a form printed by the Company—the date of the Inquisition is September 21st, and the alleged forcible entry took place on the 26th—I did not in the interval write to Robinson informing him that there had been an Inquisition, nor did I see him or inform him—on 26th September he told me that he had the premises under a three years' agreement which was still running—he did not say that he had never been lawfully ejected or deprived of the use of the premises—I was aware of the proceedings against him by the Sheriff—I acted under the orders of the Company's solicitor in taking possession—I charged Robinson with an assault on me, and after that while he was going with the constable, he continued to threaten me—I made no complaint to the first constable of any assault, but I did to the second, and he said that it was a civil action—he was called at the police-court—I do not know his name, but there were only two—I have seen him here to-day—I do not think I made any complaint about the threats—I was seized by the throat—I was not hurt or frightened, but it was not a pleasant position to be in—I told the first constable that I had been put out of the house—I saw a woman named Wadey, who I believe is a lodger there, at the police-court—I saw nobody in the house that day looking at apartments which were to let—from the way in which the door was opened, if anybody swears that she opened it from the inside, I swear that that is untrue—I said "to the best of my belief it-was not," before the Magistrate, but of course I could not see through a wooden door—I say that it may have been opened from the inside, but it is very improbable, because I saw it forced open—I base my judgment on the way the door flew open.

Re-examined. The force used was a violent push by Robinson and his two men, and the door flew open to the widest extent with a bang, and it was then closed against me—I notice that in the agreement there is no power of re-entry for non-payment of rent.

FREDERICK NIEMAN . I am a ventriloquist, of 156, Walworth Road—Robinson lot me the kitchen and ground floor as a lodger—I was there 18 months, and left the first week in November—he never occupied any part of the premises, but I made him sleep there one night—he had no property there—three floors were let to lodgers—he called every Monday for nine or ten months for his rent, and I paid him regularly, but sometimes Maitland called, that is Irving—on a Saturday in September Burton called, and showed me an Inquisition, he explained what had occurred, and on the Saturday afterwards I agreed to pay him my rent—I afterwards told Robinson so; he said "You will have to pay me; when is Mr. Burton coming again?" I said "Monday, at 10 o'clock," he said "I will be here, and go downstairs after him, and give him a d—d good thrashing, and if I get six months it will not be the first time"—I had kept a few weeks' rent in hand, and he said if I paid Burton he would broker me—Burton came first on the Monday, but he bad another place to go to, and was away 10 minutes or a quarter of an hour, and when he came back I was in the kitchen, and saw a crowd coming up the front garden—I went up and opened the front door and let Robinson in and three others—Robinson asked me if Mr. Burton had

called, I said "Yes, he will be back very shortly"—he went upstairs, to Mrs. Wadey, and the other fellows stopped in the passage—Mr. Burton came back and Robinson came down and put the chain on the front door—I said, "Mr. Robinson, you must not lock me in my own place," and he put his arms round my neck and held me—I got my police whistle, and he ran to Burton and got hold of him by his throat—as the door was locked I ran up to the window and blew my whistle—I then heard Mr. Irving say "That will do Jemmy, leave him alone"—I am sure Robinson assaulted Mr. Burton—something was said about authority, and he said "I will show it to a policeman"—they went out, and I locked the door and put the chain up—I went into the front room and saw Robinson and the gang come up the front—I heard two blows against the door, and the second blow broke the lock and the catch, and the chain was forced through the slot—I saw that and paid for repairing it—it is not a fact that Mrs. Wadey or anybody else opened the door to Robinson—Mrs. Wadey never came down lower than the landing—three fellows came back with Robinson and used most filthy language, and forced open my inner door and hurt my wife's thumb—a policeman came and I went outside and told him I would give Mr. Robinson in charge—he said "I cannot do anything, it is a civil action"—Robinson stayed about half an hour—I remained in the house a week or a week and a half, and each time Robinson came he threatened to bleed me and knife me—he came the following morning for the rent and I was advised to Pay him, and he allowed me 2s. 6d. payment for the repair of the lock of the front door—I said, "Will you put it in the book?"—he said "You don't want me to incriminate myself; I shall have you up for criminally assaulting a child," and then he threatened to sue me for keeping a writ back—there is no truth in either—before the repairs were done I saw the woodwork broken away and the bolts also—the locksmith had to take the lock away for a day, and in the interim I had to use the large lock—I repaired the door of my own room myself.

Cross-examined. The alleged forcible entry took place on September 26th, and the locksmith was called in on October 2nd, and the lock was brought back on the 4th—I mentioned that at the police-court, Mrs. Wadey and I have never had any words—I have not told her or Mrs. Bowles that I wanted to get possession of the house and take it as a tenant instead of Robinson—I am now living at No. 152, but I am not a tenant of the Company or living rent free; I paid Mr. Hooper, the landlord, last Monday—I never had any quarrel with Robinson till he assaulted me—my wife is not here, the assault on her was not intentional; he burst the door open and she was behind it—I did not take out a summons against him; I told him if he would send me a letter of apology for assaulting me and for the language he used before my wife I would accept it; he said he would do so when those proceedings were over.

Re-examined. What he did to me was done purposely; he got behind me and held me by the throat, and I could hardly move, and if Mr. Irving had not interfered it would have been more serious.

HENRY BRANSBY . I am employed at Mr. Dunn's, 132, Walworth Road—on 2nd October we had an order to take off a lock at 136, Walworth Road, and I took it off on the 4th; the bolt was bent, the spring broken, and the box strained—I did not find the bolt torn away from the

woodwork of the door, but the screws of the lock were bent—I repaired the lock and put it back.

WILLIAM HOOPER . I am a ladder maker, of 152, Walworth Road—on 26th September, between 10 and 11 o'clock, I saw Robinson and three or four others at No. 136, the door of which was closed; Robinson made a rush at it, it gave way and flew right open.

Cross-examined. No one could have opened it from the inside; they could not have stood there, they would have been knocked down—I am under Mr. Burton now, and Nieman is my tenant.

Witnesses for the Defence.

JOHN BELL . I am a general dealer, of 3, Trigwell Street, City—on 26th September, about 10.30 a.m., I was with Mr. Robinson and two others outside this house—he opened the door with a key and went in, and Nieman said he had no right there, and Mr. Burton would be back directly and very likely he would get the worst of it—Nieman also said that he should pay no more rent—Mr. Burton came in, and an argument took place; one said "You have no right to be here," and the other said "You have no right to be here"—they shoved one another, and each tried to shove the other out—after a time Burton walked out and Robinson followed him, and they went and spoke to a policeman, and then they each went different ways—Robinson went back to the house, and asked me and the other two men to go and see the rooms, as had been arranged; he unlocked the door with a key and found the chain on—Nieman was standing at his parlour window, and he went from there to the first floor window, and said that we should not go in—Robinson kept on ringing and knocking, and someone came to the door, I believe it was a female—I was two or three yards from the door when it was opened from the inside by Mrs. Wadey, I believe—it was not burst open by Robinson or by anybody with him—I was there the whole time.

Cross-examined, I live at 16, Ball Street, Balls Pond—I wanted to live at Walworth—I have gone by other names; I might pledge in three or four names a day—I have been convicted of assault and disorderly house keeping—I did not go in the name of Richardson—I do not know John Thompson, of 75, Parkhurst Road, Holloway, or John Miller, of Colebrook Terrace, Islington—I have gone in the name of Grimston—I have known the defendant three or four years; I only knew Irving recently—I have seen the proscecutor and Mr. Irving as clerk at 187, Blackfriars Road, supposed to be Mr. Goatley's office, but I never saw Mr. Goatley—I have not seen a clerk named Judge there—I was not talking outside Lambeth Police-court to a person named Levy, a son of Lawrence Levy, after I had given my evidence, and who goes by the name of Judge—I have not been concerned in getting money from persons who give up houses—I do not know that Robinson had possession of these premises for months and never paid 1s. rent.

Re-examined. I do not know Mr. Goatley at all—I have been to his office once in relation to this case and since it came on; I got intimate with his clerk at the police-court.

EUGENE WILLIAM ROBINSON . I am independent, and live at 17, Harleyford Street, Kennington—on 26th September I went to see my cousin, the defendant, at 136, Walworth Road—I met him outside the house, he entered with a key; he went for his rent—Mr. Bell and Mr. Irving: were with us—Nieman came out of the parlour and told my

cousin he had no right there, and Mr. Burton was called down from the first floor—my cousin asked him what right he had there; he said he was there on behalf of the Midland Railway Company to collect the rent—my cousin asked him to show his authority; we went out to a constable, and he opened his bag and showed a paper; my cousin read it, and said he was satisfied with it, and we went back to the house, and when we got back the door was on the chain; my cousin put the key in and could not get in, and knocked and rang two or three times—Nieman was looking at the window, and the lodger on the second floor came down and said "Wait a minute and I will let you in," and she withdrew the chain and we all went in, and I saw her behind the door—since then I have spoken to her, her name is Wadey—I know her voice—a policeman came and my cousin went to the door and made a statement—Burton was in the hall, but made no complaint to the constable of any assault, neither did Nieman.

Cross-examined. I went to the Cape early in 1883, and came back in 1884—I have not been back again—I have, known my cousin well since 1884. I never knew him to go by the name of Eugene William Robinson, only as William—I never knew him have to do with 17, Parkhurst Road—I have never gone by any other name; I do not keep a house—he has been a clerk at Goatley's fur the last six months, and I know Mr. Irving as another clerk, but not Mr. Judge—I have been there occasionally during the last six months, but not very frequently—I have seen Mr. Goatley, and I should say he is considerably over 60—he is not over 90—I do not know from my cousin of other houses which he has got and put in lodgers, and got money out of the landlord to give up possession—I did not Hear the expression about serving Burton as they do in Ireland—Burton equally pushed my cousin as my cousin did him—when the prosecutor was reading I saw the document read by my cousin, and heard him say that it was only a blooming garnishee order—there was no shoulder-pushing against the door.

EMMA WADEY . I am a widow, and live at 267, Kennington Road—on 26th September I was a lodger of the defendant at 136, Walworth-road—I remember Mr. Burton coming about 10.30 a.m.; he asked me for my rent, and I said I would pay Mr. Robinson; he said he would call again, and went down to Mr. Nieman's room—Mr. Robinson afterwards came in, and I heard him ask Mr. Burton what sort of a thing he had there—there was a dispute and some angry words—they all left the house, and Robinson and two friends came back—Robinson tried to get in with the key, but could not because Mr. Nieman had put the chain up—he rang the bell, and I went down and took the chain from the door and opened it and let him in.

Cross-examined. My room is on the second floor, but I came down further than the first floor landing—I did not know Robinson left in March of this year—when I went into this house I paid him rent every week—he never came for rent after this row—I heard nothing said about serving him the same as landlords in Ireland—I did not hear Robinson say that he would settle him—on the Saturday Nieman brought Mr. Burton up to my room and told me that was my future landlord—Mrs. Phillips had been living there—I have seen Robinson since these proceedings have been going on—I have not been to Goatley'a office—before I left the house Mr. Robinson asked me to come as a witness,

and I signed my name to a paper that I would do so—I swore two affidavits for him at the High Court—he took me there both times—he told me I had better get out of the house as soon as I could—he paid me nothing for the affidavits—I paid no rent.

Re-examined. I have been a widow six years—my husband was a butcher—I have to work for my living—I have no interest in this matter—the door was not burst open or injured in any way.

By the COURT. I went down because the prisoner rang the bell—his hand was inside trying to undo the bolt, and I said, "If you will take your hand away I will open it"—the chain allowed him to ret his hand in, he had opened it with his key sufficient to get his hand in—the lock of the door was not taken off to my knowledge—I positively deny that it was broken or sent to be repaired—it is untrue as the locksmith says, that the lock was bent, the spring bent, and the stock damaged, the screw of it being bent; those are all lies—I was there till November 7th, and the lock was not broken off—it was not broken, there has been no repair done to it or to the chain either.

FREDERICK BROADHEAD (Policeman 571 P). On 26th September I saw the defendant and several others—he said "Mr. Burton has been in my house, and has no right there"—Mr. Burton said "Yes, I have," and showed me a paper—Robinson made no reply, but another gentleman said "This is a civil case," and something about the rent—Burton said nothing about being assaulted or seized by the throat, or about any threats, but they were both very much excited—I declined to interfere on the ground that it was a civil matter.

Cross-examined. I did not take that suggestion from Mr. Irving—a paper was shown to me with several seals on it, and after that Mr. Irving said that it was a civil matter.

By the COURT. We do not take up anybody for assault unless we see it, or see marks of violence; we leave the parties to take out a summons.

GEORGE WATSON . I live at 74, Grange Road, Bermondsey, and am an upholsterer—I was pasting 136, Walworth Road, about 10.45 a.m., and saw a crowd, and a coloured man and the defendant having an altercation—the coloured man ran into the house and slammed the door as he saw the gentlemen coming along, and the defendant took a key out of his pocket and partly opened the door, and then it stopped and he rang the bell and a lady came down and opened the door—it seemed that the chain was on the door when Robinson opened it.

Cross-examined. I work at Mr. Solomon's, 74, Grange Road—I am speaking of a Monday—I had a letter sent me the following day to call at Mr. Goatley's office; I have not got it—I took no notice, but did not get another letter—I saw Mr. Goatley at his office in Blackfriars Road; his age is between 50 and 60—he wrote to me; I did not go there voluntarily '—Robinson came down the garden, and asked if anybody saw it, and I gave my name and address—he never asked me to go before the Magistrate—I have so many letters that I burn them as I get them—I went to his office once; that was to give my statement, more than a fortnight ago.

JOHN WAKEFIELD (Policeman P 89). Neither Nieman or Burton complained to me on 26th September—Broadhead and I were the only officers called at the police-court.

Cross-examined. I am not the man who was at the door of the house in Walworth Road.

GUILTY* of the forcible entry, but not of the assault .— Four Months' Hard Labour.

Reference Number: t18871212-169

169. WILLIAM SMITH (25) , Robbery with violence on Matthew Bateman, at Farnham, and of stealing a watch and chain, his property.— GUILTY .— Twelve Months' Hard Labour.

Reference Number: t18871212-170

170. HENRY WHITEHOUSE (42), RICHARD SIMMONDS, alias Hamilton (52); HENRY SIMON, alias Hasper, alias Edwards ; JOSEPH GOSLING , ALFRED LEDICOTT , HENRY HAWKINS , EDWARD BROWN, alias Maltby (39); RICHARD FRANK HAYES, alias Osborne (50); CHARLES HANCORN (49), WILLIAM HAYDON (39), HENRY MAY (40), and DE WYKEHAM CHAPMAN were indicted (with HENRY WRIGHT, E. W. PRICE , and HENRY BARNES not in custody) for unlawfully conspiring to obtain goods from divers persons by false pretences.

MR. CHARLES MATHEWS, MR. H. AVORY , and MR. GILL, jun., Prosecuted;

MR. HORRELL appeared for Simmonds, MR. T. M. PHILLIPS and MR. LYNCH for Gosling, MR. HUTTON for Ledicott, MR. DILL for Hancorn, MR. MEAD for Hawkins, MR. MOYSES for HAYDON, and MR. KEMP, Q.C., and MR. KISCH for Chapman.

GEORGE STEPHENSON . I am a traveller, and live at 131, Royal Road, Kennington Park—I know all the defendants except Hawkins and Chapman—I have only known Whitehouse since last December; Hayes, May, Simon, and Haydon about three years; Gosling since last year, and Ledicott only the last year to be friendly with him; Brown four or five years, and Hancorn only through connection with the others—I used to meet them at the Wine Shades, Dowgate Hill, last year, but not Ledicott or Hawkins—before January, 1886, I was traveller to Mr. Woods, a jam manufacturer, of Swanley, to whom I introduced orders from May and Miss White, who is not here, to whom Simon was manager—Simon is Harper—the goods were supplied on that introduction—I left Mr. Woods in January, 1886, and went into the employ of Wright and Ashbridge as traveller, to whom I introduced Ledicott, Simon, Hayes, and Gosling, and Brown in the name of Maltby, to all of whom goods were supplied—Ledicott gave an order for goods value 1l. 5s., which were supplied—I owed Ledicott 10s., and gave him 5s. and signed a receipt for the full amount—I did not hand Wright and Ashbridge any of it—goods were supplied to Hayes by Wright and Ashbridge to the amount of 3l. 8s. 6d., for which Hayes paid me 25s., and I signed this receipt in full (produced)—I did not hand any of it to Wright and Ashbridge, but I wrote and told them I had collected the account—they discharged me at the beginning of December, 1886, on account of my orders not being satisfactory—during 1886 I used to meet several of the defendants at the Silver Grill, Hart Street, Mark Lane, and also at Ledicott's house, the Antelope, which has an off and on licence; it is a dining room as well—I have seen a man there who has been discharged, also Perks, and Farrington, and Price, and Barnes—I knew Simmonds as Baxter and Hamilton and Sinclair and Seymour, and he was generally known as Shylock among his friends—he said to me that when any new

name cropped up he was introduced as a customer who was to buy goods, and Simmonds told me that when goods were obtained he had taken them to Chapman's, and that he took some there which had been sent in the name of Hamilton from Alexander's, the soap people, and he had not got his share of it, as the goods fetched 1l. 3s., which was less than half the amount of the invoice—in August or September this year there was a row in Hancorn's shop; they had been to Chapman's with goods, Whitehouse came in, and Simmonds was there; he was excited to find they had been to Chapman's, and Barnes did not meet him to give him his commission, and he said he would round on him—Whitehouse accused them of letting the man go away after keeping him two hours without paying him his commission; he said that he had had five years already, and he did not care if he got ten if he did not get his commission—Simmonds said if Hamilton had goods Simon took them to Chapman, who would pay half the invoice price—he said he had a commission on them, and if he only got the price of the invoice the traveller would have his share, and the remainder would go to the men who sold them—the men who got the goods would have the biggest portion, and 10 per cent. commission was paid on the invoice—after the case was launched at the police-court I met the prisoner Wright, who threatened me—I know Simmonds's writing—this document marked 74 is his writing—the address on this document, 812, Old Kent Road, is Simmonds's—I know he lived there.

Cross-examined by Whitehouse. I think I first saw you in December, 1886—I told you I travelled for Wright and Ashbridge, that I made a lot of bad debts, and received several accounts and stuck to them—I have been a traveller on and off eight years—I only saw you once at the Silver Grill; I did not see you there in 1884; I did not see Westlake there, who has been discharged; I never knew him—I brought Simmonds to your house the morning you were arrested, because I was passing—I did not come by the instructions of the police—I had been there three or four times before—I have never been charged with forgery or false pretences—I did not go to Shepherd's Bush and ask for money to assist your wife and children, and put it in my pocket—I did not make Wright and Ashbridge 150l. bad debts; not so much—I had some of their money—I wrote and told them what I had—I paid them back some and put the rest in my pocket.

Cross-examined by May. I knew you first in 1884—you were then at Northfleet doing a good business—I went there and you handed me some money.

Cross-examined by MR. HORRELL. When Simmonds said he had only had 1l. 5s. we were at the Shades—the conversation with Simmonds was at Hancorn's—I did not say that Simmonds said they were to have certain shares, I said that that was the usual way of sharing it, so much for the traveller and so much for the commission man—I got a card printed with the name of Richards on it—I was Richards for the time being—I took the cards to poor bakers and got their money—bakers had swindled me, and I retaliated by swindling the bakers.

Cross-examined by MR. LYNCH. I have never seen Gosling at the Shades or at any public-house, or in company with the other prisoners—I saw him at his shop at Peckham, and he gave me an order for Wright and Ashbridge for about 30s. worth of black lead, which was executed, and the bottles were all damaged, and part of the goods were returned.

Cross-examined by MR. HUTTON. I went to the Shades three or four four times a week, but never saw Ledicott there—there is a dining room at Ledicott's—I often dined there, and many others besides the prisoners—Ledicott had given me 10s., to get something, and I put it in my pocket instead—I have had Suffolk ale there—he sometimes let my account run on, but I don't think I owed him anything besides that 10s.

Cross-examined by Brown. I have been either at the Cannon or the Shades with you.

Cross-examined by Hayes. I have not seen you with any of the prisoners except Haydon—I have only seen you about three times—I thought you were carrying on a legitimate trade—yours is a provision shop in King's Road, Hammersmith.

Cross-examined by MR. DILL. When I went to Hancorn's shop and Whitehouse expressed himself disgusted, we all adjourned to a public-house—Hancorn said he thought they were very foolish to make such a noise in the place—he did not know, to my knowledge, what Whitehouse was making the noise about.

Cross-examined by Simon. I never took an order of you at Ledicott's or at the Shades—you gave me two orders; they have been paid for—the bother was about your taking some goods which Whitehouse had sent to Chapman's place—I do not know that it was a pony.

Cross-examined by MR. KEMP. Mr. Naper has the benefit of my services now, and I think he is satisfied with me; I have been there six weeks—my master had a character with me—the police came to me seven weeks ago—I was not in anyone's service then; they did not tell me they wanted someone to speak about Simmonds and other persons—I was brought to Mr. Wontner's office because Simmonds mentioned my name at the police-court, and when the police came to me I thought, instead of being in that place, I would be in this place; to save myself from going into the dock I went into the witness-box, but I did not know I was going into the dock—I have only told the truth; I have not said anything to protect myself—there was no prosecution against me—I did not know I ought to go into the dock, but I know I associated with the others.

Re-examined. I have only seen Gosling at his shop at Peckham—I saw Simmonds at that shop—Simon only gave me two orders for 30s. and 2l., and they were paid for.

Cross-examined by Simon. The address was Purley Street, Peckham.

Cross-examined by Hayes. Haydon introduced you as Osborne, and told me you were trading at Fulham.

Henry Wright here surrendered, and MR. MURPHY appeared for his defence; with the prisoner's consent the jury were discharged, and the prisoners, including Wright, were again given in charge to the jury; the previous evidence being read by the shorthand writers.

GEORGE STEPHENSON . (Continued). I have only seen Wright once; that was at his shop, 134, Newington Causeway—I called there with Haydon who introduced me—I got my orders from Wright; they seemed friendly, greeting as if they knew each other—I went there without any object—I next saw Wright on a tram—there had then been more than one hearing before the Magistrate—he got on the tram car with his wife, and said "I have a mind to throw you off the car; you have rounded on 12 of these men, and I suppose you have had 12s. from each"—I said "I have received nothing;" there were only 12 prisoners then, and he said "You

have ruined 12 families by rounding on these men, and if my wife was not here I would chuck you off the car"—I never answered him, but left the car at Kennington Park, and as I got off he hooted me, and said "The sooner you get out of London the better."

Cross-examined by MR. MURPHY. He did not say he would throw me off because I was telling lies—the conductor did not want to turn me off for being drunk—I had not had a drink all day, which was unusual.

Cross-examined by MR. MOYSES. I met Haydon by accident, and went with him to Wright's for refreshment—his acquaintance with Wright only seemed that of an ordinary customer—he only told Wright I was a traveller, and mentioned my name—Wright was serving customers, and his name was up.

Cross-examined by MR. HORRELL. I was in the employ of Jenners, brewers, and Simmonds gave an order for a barrel of beer, which was sent, but it was returned because he wanted credit and we wanted cash.

JOHN FISHER ASHBRIDGE . I am one of the firm of Wright and Ashbridge, blacklead merchants, of Dowgate Hill—in September, 1886, George Stephenson entered our service as traveller, on commission—he introduced a number of orders, which were, generally speaking, unsatisfactory—goods were supplied, but the money was not forthcoming—he introduced Mr. Maltby, of 1, Princes Street, Deptford, and afterwards produced an order purporting to be signed by A. Maltby, and dated September 23rd, 1886, upon which we sent goods, value 1l. 12s. 9d., by the L. P. D. Co., but did not then know that Maltby passed by the name of Edward Brown, or that he had any other address—the goods have not been paid for—on 1st October, 1886, we received from Stephenson an order from Ledicott, of the Antelope Stores, Western Street, Bermondsey, value 1l. 4s. 9d.—they were sent on the 4th, and have not been paid for—on 4th October Stephenson introduced a customer, R. F. Hayes, of 345, King Street, Hammersmith, who signed an order for goods, value 3l. 8s. 4d., and gave us a card, "R. F. Hayes, purveyor of cheese and provisions, the favour of your recommendation is respectfully solicited"—those goods have not been paid for; some were returned before we communicated with the police—we did not know Hayes as Osborne—on 29th October Stephenson gave us another order from Hayes, amounting to 2l. 11s.—those goods were returned some time after—on 20th October, 1886, we received from Stephenson an order for blacklead and blue, amounting to 2l. 16s. 9d., purporting to come from H. Simon, 53, Harvey Road, Peckham—the goods were sent; they have not been paid for—on 22nd October we received a post-card from Stephenson, with an order from J. Gosling, amounting to 2l. 11s., and on 2nd November another, amounting to 1l. 10s. 8d.—we have never been paid for any of those goods—in September, 1886, we advertised for a traveller, and received these letters from the prisoner Haydon. (These contained the names of references, and proposed doing business on the same terms as Stephenson.) We consented, and Haydon introduced orders from a man named Farrington, who has never paid us any money, but we got the bulk of the goods back; a small balance is still owing—in answer to an advertisement we received on 8th September, 1886, this letter from R. Simmonds, 812, Old Kent Road. (Stating that he had a first-rate connection, and kept his own horse and trap.) In February, 1887, we advertised for a traveller, and received an answer from a man named Whitehouse—we

communicated with him—he sent references, and was ultimately engaged—he said he had a very good connection—we asked him if he knew Haydon or Stephenson—he said "No"—he introduced Hancorn as a customer on May 18th, 1887, and we supplied goods to him, value 16s. 6d., which has not been paid—there was a second order, but we did not supply it; that was on June 7th, and with it came an order through Whitehouse for goods for Gosling—we made inquiries, and did not supply them—Gosling was the name of a customer introduced by Stephenson, who had not paid—Whitehouse also gave us an order from Hawkins, at the Shades, Dowgate Hill, to which we did not reply—I have been to the Shades twice, and have seen some of the prisoners there—I think Hayes is one, and Simmonds and Whitehouse together, and I stood and watched them—I afterwards told Whitehouse that if he had any regard for his character he would keep away from that gang—he said he went in to have a sandwich, and they asked him to have a drink—I have seen Haydon with some of the other prisoners, but I cannot identify any of them, and I have seen him coming out of Ledicott's.

Cross-examined by Whitehouse. We gave you 10 per cent, commission without expenses—I had confidence in you till I saw you with the people I have named—people go in there to dinner—you have obtained accounts for us, a good many of which have been paid—I do not know the amount of the bad debts Stephenson made—we did not prosecute him—you sent in your account to us, and the next thing we heard was that you were in custody—we had told the police—the Shades is not quite opposite our house; we cannot see all who go in and out—I only saw you there once—we have paid you your commission and more.

Cross-examined by MR. MOYSES. Haydon gave me satisfactory references, and we engaged him for that reason, and from the style he wrote in—his orders were unsatisfactory—we unfortunately executed them without inquiries because my partner was away ill—I submitted some of them to an inquiry agency, and in several cases the goods were not supplied—we received very little money on Haydon's orders—he was paid by commission, and used to draw 25s. or 30s. a week, but when the orders continued unsatisfactory we discontinued paying him—he was engaged in October and discharged in November—when Farrington's goods were returned, Haydon said he could not understand Farrington ordering them—he did not say they were of bad quality, and I defy any one to say they were bad.

Cross-examined by MR. HORRELL. We advertised under a number—any one might make a fortune by being our traveller—we only know of two accounts which Stephenson received, and those he has never accounted for.

Cross-examined by MR. PHILLIPS. Some of the goods supplied to Gosling were returned, owing to the bottles being broken by the carriers, and an amended invoice was asked for—it was our collector's duty to apply to Gosling for the money—the travellers are not authorised to collect money, but Stephenson did.

Cross-examined by MR. HUTTON. I have been to Ledicott's three or four times for the money; they said that they would pay, but I believe Stephenson has collected it.

Cross-examined by Hayes. I expect our traveller called on you for our money, I did not—I do not remember your applying to us to take a

portion of the goods back directly they were delivered—I do not know of your having any other place, but we have got the name of Osborne.

Cross-examined by Simon. I did not hear Stephenson admit this morning that my account was paid—I do not think I have seen you at the Shades.

Cross-examined by MR. MOYSES. We make no secret of subscribing to the agency, but I cannot say whether Haydon knew it.

Re-examined. I saw Whitehouse just by Cannon Street Station with a man; I stood there 10 minutes, and he passed me without speaking to me—he sent a commission account in, but there was nothing owing to him for commission.

Cross-examined by Whitehouse. You have had a lot of money from us which you never earned.

WILLIAM BARRINGER . I am a provision merchant, of 26, Henrietta Street, Covent Garden—we advertised for a traveller in December, 1885, and Haydon came and said that he had a good connection round London among paying men, and could do a large trade—among the people he introduced was J. W. Lowden, who was known to us unfavourably—I asked Haydon if Lowden was the person we knew; he said "No"—I asked if he was quite sure; he said he was positive, he was travelling for him, and he was a very respectable man and well connected, and he had known him many years—in consequence of that I supplied Lowden with goods to the value of 52l., which has not been paid—Haydon also brought me an order from Henry Simon, of Farley Road, Peckham—he said he was a good man doing a good trade, and would pay short—I supplied Simon with goods value 72l. 9s. 5d. t but have only been paid 10s.—Haydon also introduced me to Alfred Ledicott, of High Street, Peckham, and made the same statements—I supplied him with goods to a much larger amount than 74l. 18s., 5d. but that is the sum he has not paid—I have made repeated applications for it—I did not go to High Street, Peckham, but I saw him at the Antelope and other houses, and asked him for the money—I afterwards found out that Lowden was the person I had known unfavourably—I then discharged Haydon.

Cross-examined by MR. HORRELL. The 74l. which Ledicott owes us does not represent the whole transaction, he has paid us about 270l.—he promised to pay on delivery; I did not inquire at the agency about Simmonds.

Cross-examined by MR. DILL. The total amount supplied to Ledicott was 340l. or 350l., and we have had all but 74l.—we only inquired of Haydon—I have seen his place of business in Bermondsey, he appeared to be doing much business.

Cross-examined by Simon. You only gave us two orders; each was through Haydon—you arranged to pay 10s. a week to settle the account—you wanted the cash, and I heard after that you had an execution in the house.

ARTHUR COPPING . I am a vinegar maker, of Bow—in July, 1884, I advertised for a traveller, and received a letter from Haydon and engaged him; he introduced orders to the value of about 29l., one of which was from Maltby, of Prince's Street, Deptford, for goods value 1l. 16s. 8d., and one from Henry Barnes, of Northfleet, for 1l. 19s. 2d.; they were not paid for.

Cross-examined by MR. MOYSES, One of Haydon's orders was partly

paid for, but a large order was sent in from Mr. Brassey, which we did not execute—we sued last year for the other but recovered nothing—Haydon was a month in our employ—our terms are cash on delivery or a month, and therefore we have some difficulty in getting orders.

ZACHARIAH WALTER GOODMAN . I trade at Barking as the Globe Silk Company—in September, 1884, I advertised for a traveller, and on the 18th I received this letter from Haydon, giving as a reference, F. Pike &co., silk manufacturers, New Church Road, Camberwell—I engaged him on October 2nd—he said he had a large connection, and could sell about three tons of silk for me, to safe people—he introduced orders to about 40I., which I supplied, for one of which I got 1I. on account, and in another, after I had sued and obtained judgment, I got 5I.—those are the only two payments I have received—one of the orders was from Alfred Ledicott, Antelope Stores, Bermondsey—I made enquiries, they were unsatisfactory, and I told Haydon so—on 21st October he brought me an order and gave me a bag with the address on it, W. J. Gosling, grocer, 88, Peckham Rye—I again enquired, with the same result, and told Haydon I declined to execute the order—on 9th October he gave me an order from R.F. Hayes, grocer and cheesemonger, 345, King Street, Hammersmith—those goods were supplied with this invoice for 4l. 11s.—they were never paid for—he also gave me an order from Mr. Farrington, Essex Road, Tidal Basin—I supplied goods value 3I. 7s., but have only received 1I. on account—I have made repeated application for the money.

Cross-examined by MR. MOYSES. I ordered Crease, my traveller, to apply to Hayes for payment—he made a report that he had applied for the money and had not got it—I have discharged Crease because his accounts were unsatisfactory, not because he had received money which he did not account for, but on account of bad debts—this is in Haydon's writing, it is an order from Gosling.

Cross-examined by Hayes. I have about three travellers in London, two of whom called on you—Priest was in my employ about four weeks—he left in April this year; he never paid me any money from you—after Priest a man named Skinner called twice, and the last time your shop was shut up—I have my receipts for a portion of 1886, and the whole of 1887.

WILLIAM JOHN AINSWORTH . I am secretary to the Viking Food and Agency Company, Limited, of Herne Street, Curtain Road—it is a preserved meat company—in December, 1886, we advertised for a traveller, and received a letter from Haydon, dated January, 1st, and in answer to the same advertisement the prisoner May called—we came to terms with Haydon; he was to obtain orders and we were to pay him a commission—I also engaged May on the same terms—among Haydon's orders was one from Hayes of 245, King Street, Hammersmith—it comes to 5I. or 6I., and has over it the words "On at once," which means the goods are to be sent on at once—I made inquiries and did not send the goods—he also introduced an order from Charles Maltby, grocer and cheesemonger, of Queen's Road, amounting to 2I. 10s. or 3I., marked "On at once"; that was not sent—he then introduced two orders of 19th January and 14th February from E. Brown, grocer and cheesemonger, of Penge—I had no notion that Maltby and Brown were the same person—Brown's order was marked "On at once," and I supplied goods to him amounting

to 6I., which have never been paid for—he introduced several other customers, to whom goods wore supplied, value 30I., but in many cases the goods were not supplied—no money was received from any customer—May did not introduce as many orders as Haydon; he introduced one from W. Farrington, grocer, of Barking, for 7I. or 8I.—I made inquiries and did not supply it.

Cross-examined by MR. MOYSES. Haydon was to be paid by commission, half at once and the other when the money was received—I belong to an inquiry agency, and I believe Haydon knew that I submitted the orders to them.

Cross-examined by May. Some goods were supplied to a man named Vogle; they came to 3I., and have not been paid for—I do not remember their being returned—an order was also sent by Marston—the goods were sent, and the matter is in the solicitor's hands—you were one of our first travellers; we had only started a month—I have only paid you about 4I. 6s. commission.

Cross-examined by Brown. Maltby does not owe anything, but Brown does—Brown's was a written order—I found it satisfactory and delivered it, but refused Maltby's order.

CHARLES SEWELL . I am one of the firm of Sewell and Co., of Greenwich, manufacturers of the electric washing powder—in April, 1887, we advertised for a traveller, and on 8th April received a letter from Haydon—we afterwards saw him—he said he had a thorough good connection among oil and colour shops and grocers, and could give us good references—after a trial we engaged him—he gave us 21 orders, of which we supplied 14, but never received a farthing—he introduced Alfred Ledicott, of the Stores, Bermondsey, and C. Hancorn, grocer and provision dealer—that was in April; this is the order—it has on it "This man is just starting in business here; W. HAYDON"—I took the stuff to the shop myself—no one was in the shop; the shutters were up, and there was no appearance of a brisk trade; it was a good deal after 10 a.m.—no one could tell me anything about Mr. Hancorn, and I returned with the washing powder—I afterwards told Haydon that I did not like the look of the place, and did not care for sending them, that Brown had disappeared, and I did not like the look of his customers at all, and afterwards he brought May down, saying "This is a thoroughly good man," and at the same time recommending Mr. Gosling, who gave an order for five gross of the No. 2, which I supplied, but he had it altered afterwards at his own request—it was reduced in price, and he had a different quality—that was never paid for—20 boxes were supplied to Ledicott, and 17 were returned—after that we declined to pay Haydon any further commission—I requested him to call and see me, but he did not.

Cross-examined by MR. HUTTON. They were 2s., 3d. a box—Ledicott did not say they were such rubbish he would not keep them.

Cross-examined by MR. MOYSES. Haydon introduced Vennall as a customer—he has not paid or offered to pay, nor has Goddard paid; he has gone away.

Cross-examined by May. You said you had sold Hancorn some tea, and had also supplied Mr. Gosling with 11I. of stuff, and he was a good man also.

Cross-examined by MR. PHILLIPS. I was not there when Gosling gave you the order, but I took them myself—he said that there was, too much

of one sort, and would I change some of them for halfpenny packets—I went again, and he offered to pay me half—I did not say that I would take the powder back.

HENRY WILLIAM SMITH . I trade as Van Haag and Co., provision dealers, 32, Chobham Road, New Town, Essex—in April, 1867, I advertised for a traveller—May applied by letter, and afterwards came—he said that he had a good old standing connection—I said that I had been taken in by so many people; if he had any shady customers not to introduce them—he said that the business houses he introduced were thoroughly satisfactory, and all paying people—I believed that, and engaged him on commission—he introduced Hancorn, of Richardson Street, Bermondsey, who he said was going to open a large shop, and he had known him some time—I supplied Hancorn with goods value 4l. 11s. 0 1/2 d., and afterwards there was another order for 1l. 14s. 6d.—he said if I sent that order he would settle for the whole—I applied week after week, but got no money—he said that he was entitled to money under his father's will, and when it was settled I should have the money—on 2nd June I received the letter: "I regret not being able to get the money till the middle of next week. C. HANCORN"—I did not get the money—I received an order from Henry Barnes, Europa Coffee-house, on the back of which was written the name of Mr. May—two orders were supplied to Barnes introduced by May, and not paid for—I also got this order from May given by C. Brown, Green Lane, Penge; not Edward Brown—May said that he had been continually acquainted with Brown for years—I supplied goods amounting to 1l. 3s. to Brown, and then received a written order from May in Ledicott's name, dated May 27th, from the Antelope, Western Street, but my suspicions had been thoroughly aroused, and I would not supply it—Bennett, a traveller of mine, introduced orders from Gosling, Hawkins, and Wright—he is now "scarce"—he told me that he knew May.

Cross-examined by May. There is no Van Haag—you came to me with a piteous tale, and I let you have 10s. in advance, and 1s. to pay your way home, and afterwards you said you could not get any money, could you have some—I said "Provided you collect the money," which you did, and appropriated it to yourself—I called on Hancorn, and found he had not received the order I had from you—I did not call on him a third time—you sent the order by post—you were there six weeks—you collected 27s., and received 1l. 17s. 2d., y and when I sent to the man I found you had given him a receipt for it—I think you are in my debt.

Cross-examined by MR. PHILLIPS. I deal in butterine otherwise bosh—I supplied bosh value 12s. 9d.—it was not bad and unsaleable—I do not know that Gosling paid 2s. 6d. to Bennett on account of that 12s., 9d., but I will not disbelieve it; he never mentioned it to me.

Cross-examined by MR. HUTTON. I supplied Ledicott with American cheese, butterine, and bacon, value about 4l.—he did not write and tell me not to supply them—I have no shop; I am a middle man—I lost so much money through these men that at the beginning of September I had to arrange with my creditors.

Cross-examined by MR. DILL. I had interviews with Hancorn every day for three months—he only gave two orders—he said he was expecting money every day under his mother's will.

Re-examined. It was a fourth-class baker's shop, one of the most

miserable I ever set eyes on—I have been ruined through the actions of these men.

JAMES CUMMING NAGLE . I am a manufacturer, of Stanley Works, Plaistow—in January this year I engaged Haydon as traveller—he gave me references, but I did not apply for them—he was with me about three months—he introduced orders amounting to 137l. 15s. 8d.—we recovered 10l. in cash, and some goods have been returned, leaving 100l. still unpaid—on July 16th we received this order in the name of Osborne, alias Hayes, amounting to 11l. 2s. 8d.—Haydon said that Osborne was a very reliable man; he had known him many years, and he was a refreshment contractor—I supplied the goods, and they were not paid for—on July 13th Haydon brought me an order from H. Wright, 134, Newington Causeway, for goods, value 3l. 5s. 7 1/2 d.—he said he had had many transactions with Wright, and he was a very reliable man—I supplied the goods, but received no money—on 19th August I had a second order from Wright for goods, value 6l. 9s. 3d.—I only supplied part of them, amounting to a little over 4l.; that has not been paid—I went to Newington Causeway three times, and saw Mrs. Wright, but I never saw him—the third time the shop was shut, and I heard that the brokers were in—I saw some of my goods there and one ox two hams—I told Haydon that it was a "very unsatisfactory sort of business—he said that Wright had had some goods from the country, and there had been some bother about them, and he had been sold up in consequence, but it was all right.

Cross-examined by MR. MURPHY. I did not find the brokers there, but I went to the police, who told me that his goods had been taken away by Dear, of Old Street—I wrote to Dear, and he replied that the goods were on the hire system, and as he did not keep up his payments, they were sold—I employed Stephenson, but only on the old adage of "Set a thief to catch a thief."

Re-examined. I have had about 27l. in goods and 10l. in cash—I have not supplied any of the customers Haydon introduced since he left—I have supplied Baxter and White, who have paid 7l. or 7l. 5s. out of 11l.—they were introduced by Haydon—he also introduced Jones, of Fulham, who owes me 4l. 1s. 10d., and Freeman, of Wandsworth, who paid two instalments of 10s. each, and still owes 9l.—Goldsmith, of Pentonville, has paid 1l. out of 5l., and sent 1l. worth of the goods back—Haydon introduced him, and also Mackenzie, of Nunhead, who is bankrupt—he has paid 1l. or 1l. and a few shillings—he did not return any of the goods—I know Dash and Co., of Tanner's Hill; they owed me under the name of Costin 4l. 17s., of which 1l. has been paid—Haydon gave that order—I also sent an order to Hennessy, but he said it was sot ordered, and I had to send for it back—that was through Haydon, but I had formerly known Hennessy as a respectable man—I made no inquiries as to any of the others—Haydon also introduced Mr. Bryan-court, to whom we sent an order, value about 10l.—he returned part of the goods after pressure; also Mr. Hubbard, of Abbey Street, Bermondsey, 2l., who has paid in full—Haydon's remuneration was 10 per cent, and commission—he had altogether 2l. out of me in 11 or 12 weeks—on 21st September, 1887, I gave him a cheque for 1l., which was dishonoured—I don't know that it was returned marked "Not sufficient"—I refuse to answer further questions as to the cheques; it

is irrelevant to the question—we manufacture flavouring essences and syrups.

HENRY DELASPIE . I am in partnership as Alexander and Co., perfume manufacturers, Paradise Street, Lambeth—we advertised for a traveller last June—Whitehouse answered and called—he said he had a very good connection in London, and had been a traveller for some years—he gave us references—I don't remember whether we applied to them—he was engaged, and his instructions were to obtain customers of good standing for cash credits—that means within a month—he was paid 25 per cent. commission off the selling list price, out of which he had to allow his customers discount—he introduced a considerable number of customers—he brought an order from Ledicott, of 48, Weston Street, Bermondsey, who he said was a ships' chandler, in a good way of business, and had a connection among ships' pursers—I sent the goods on 8th July, and an invoice for 1l. 0s. 6d.—on 10th August I got a written order from Ledicott, and on the 17th the goods were sent off, value 1l. 15s. 6d.—there was also a third order—it was not executed—after which I called at Ledicott's—it was a kind of beerhouse—I had not received payment for any of the orders, and on 24th August I sent in a statement—I attended at the police-court when Whitehouse was charged, and on returning home found that Ledicott had been and paid the first order to my partner, who sent this receipt (produced)—I went next morning to Lodicott's for the second order—it is a small eating-house—I showed him the signature to this letter, and said, "Is that your name?" he said "Yes;" I said "I merely want to be sure I am speaking to Mr. Ledicott"—I told him I had come for the goods supplied by Messrs. Alexander—he went to a cupboard where the goods were—they were not exposed for sale—I said to my man, "Get those out for him," and he assisted—after we got them out, Ledicott asked for a receipt, and I gave him one (produced)—the goods we supplied on 14th July were fancy soap, and the second order was perfumes—on 14th July we received a written order from Mr. Hancorn, 18, Richarson Street, Long Lane, for goods value 21s., which were sent by Pickfords—on the same paper was an order from E. Brown, 2, Green Lanes, Penge, for goods value 2l. 2s., which have not been paid for—on 12th August we received another order on Hancorn's card for goods value 28s., they were forwarded by Pickfords, and have not been paid for—on 27th August we received a third order for 4l. 16s. worth of goods which were delivered and not paid for—Whitehouse said that Hancorn's business was among shippers—finding I was not paid, I went to Hancorn's address, and found that his establishment was even worse than the others—it was in a corner of a little street where people make sacks at the doors—there were no signs of business going on—I had supplied Hancorn with fancy soap and perfumery—after that journey I called in a detective to meet Whitehouse on the Saturday, and went through this list with him, and asked him what account he had to offer of the customers I had supplied to his orders, and in every case he said they were all good men, and that Hancorn had some property coming to him—I believe he said through a will—I said, "How can you think there is any perfumed soap needed in that neighbourhood?"—I have since seen a quantity of the perfumery that I supplied to Hancorn, in the hands of the police—on 18th August Whitehouse introduced an order from

Hamilton, 14, Cuthill Street, Denmark Hill, who, he said, was connected with shippers, and was doing a large outdoor trade, and he had known him for many years as a respectable man—the first order was for goods value 2l. 8s., but it was afterwards increased at Whitehouse's suggestion to 6l. 11s. 6d.—those goods were forwarded by Pickfords on 25th August—on 10th September I received a further order from Hamilton through Whitehouse, for goods, value 2l. 8s.; that was not executed—Hamilton has not paid—I afterwards saw the goods at Chapman's—on 20th August, Whitehouse gave me an order from J. Edwards, 33, Batchelor Street, Poplar, for goods value 3l. 12s., he said that Edwards had carried on business some years as a grocer, and also did an outdoor trade, and he had known him 10 or 15 years—we have not been paid for the goods—I was present when this box was found on Chapman's premises, these are part of the goods supplied to Edwards, and the other box which I saw found there contains the goods we supplied to Hancorn, it has his name on it, which was done for the information of the packer—on 28th July we received an order in Whitehouse's writing from Gosling for some toilet soap, value 1l. 12s., which we sent on August 4—he said that Gosling was a good man—I made no inquiries about him, but I said it was necessary to pass him through Stubbs—we have not been paid—on the same paper is an order from H. Barnes, of 3, Church Street, Rotherhithe, for soap and other articles, value 3l. 1s. 9d., which we supplied, and have not been paid—another order was from E. V. Pine, Spa Road, Bermondsey, for soap and other goods, value 1l. 13s., which we sent, and have not been paid—on 20th July we received through Whitehouse an order from Osborne, of Fulham, who we supplied with goods, value 1l. 12s. 6d., which have never been paid for—Whitehouse said that Osborne was a good man, and there was no necessity for inquiry—on 15th July we received through Whitehouse an order from H. Wright, 34, Newington Causeway, on White's bill-head, which describes him as a refreshment contractor, for goods, value 2l. 4s., which we sent on July 22nd; they have never been paid for—on August 15th we received an order direct from Wright, and sent him goods, value 16s. 6d., which have not been paid for—Whitehouse said that he was a respectable man—on 16th August we received an order from Wright for 29l. worth of perfumes, but we did not think it proper to execute it—Whitehouse afterwards called and I told him that Wright had not paid, and if he got two-thirds of the money I would execute the other order—he said he thought Wright was capable of paying—I passed him through Stubbs who knew nothing about him—on 10th August I received through Whitehouse from H. King, Old Anchor House, Peckham, an order for goods, value 1l. 12s.—we proposed to put him through Stubbs' Agency, but Whitehouse said that there was no occasion whatever; the goods were sent, but not paid for—Whitehouse also gave us an order from W. Farrington, 4, Addington Square, Camberwell—we supplied him with goods, value 1l. 13s. 6d., and have only been paid 8s., which was since this prosecution was instituted, but we got the goods back—we also received through Whitehouse an order, on. September 8th, for goods, value 1l. 16s., from Mr. Haydon, of Worlington Road, Peckham, which we did not execute—I produce an order, in Whitehouse's writing, from H. May, 21, Tumm's Road, Rye Lane, for soap and other articles, value 1l. 17s. 6d., which we delivered on August 13th, and have, not been paid—before

10th June a former traveller named Rose introduced us to Mr. Chapman—we received two orders from him, and forwarded them with two invoices for 1l. 4s.—it was a reserve order for soap, 6l.; there had been two deliveries of 12s. each at 12s. a gross—it would have been 16s. a gross for onlyone gross—the amount, 13s. 6d., was paid after Whitehouse's arrest—the wholesale price for a 58 dozen found at Chapman's was 11l. 16s. without allowance; the wholesale price of these 2-ounce bottles of eau de cologne is 7s. a dozen, subject to 10 per cent, reduction over a large order—the wholesale price of the goods found at Chapman's would be 3l. 4s. 9d.—the pumice soap is in 6d. and 3 1/4 d. tablets; the wholesale price is 4s. 6d. a dozen boxes, subject to 15 per cent, allowance on a large order—the wholesale price of the 129 boxes of pumice soap found at Chapman's would be 2l. 8s. 4d.—the boxes of universal and of transparent soap contain three dozen tablets; the wholesale price is 16s. a gross, of which 22 full boxes were found and seven half full, the wholesale price of which would be 5s. 2d.—the wholesale price of all our goods found at Chapman's amounts to 22l. 11s. 9d.

Cross-examined by Whitehouse. We applied to the references you gave us, and I presume we were satisfied, or we should not have taken you—you told me that Hancorn was about opening, that he was an honest man, and you believed he had money coming from his mother's will—you only gave me one order from Wright, but after that he wrote for a gross of soap, which was sent—you said it was a very large order, and advised me to let him pay the first account—you took the statement to him and brought it back and said that he would not pay you, as he had no authority—I said I should not send the 30l. order till I got part of the first order—I received an anonymous letter, after which the police sent a detective—I have not the letter; it stated that I was in the hands of the long firm—I went through the account and asked you about each man; it took half an hour or an hour—I won't swear Williamson did not say "Wait till next week and see what you get"—my partner was away on the day he came up—I said I would go round and look at these people, and I went to Ledicott, and Haucorn, and Barnes, who had got a sheriff's officer in their places, and I said to myself "This is what I thought," and the same evening I wrote out the accounts and sent them to Stubbs to collect—I had nothing to do with expenses; it put me to expense—I paid you no commission that day—I don't know what I expected of you, the matter had gone so far—you had the statement previously; you were carrying the statement in your pocket—I do not give three months' credit to all my customers—I only sell goods for 12s. a gross in the contract way—I do not give 15 per cent, for cash—I was not shown a letter in my writing at the police-court, agreeing to give three months' credit; that letter was very cautiously worded—as soon as the account is made up we wait for three months—the largest businesses sometimes owe us money for three months; we don't always put it in Stubbs' hands—ours are monthly accounts—all trade accounts are the same—none have three months' credit for fancy goods—Price's order went whether you asked us not to send it or not—I found out afterwards what sort of a place it was—if you told me so I cannot understand how they went—I don't admit it; if you say so, it may be—two orders have gone to Littlewood—if you had given me instructtions they would have been stopped—we should not have sent goods where

there was no chance of getting our money—goods were sent because you did not stop them—I complain that you were selling to doubtful houses, all connected—that was not after I received this—I have said I wished I had had nothing to do with this case; that is, I wish I had not been led into it by you—I have not said I wished I had not taken these proceedings.

Cross-examined by MR. MOYSES. I had this order from Whitehouse to send goods for a small amount to Haydon; it was not sent.

Cross-examined by May. I believe application was made through Stubbs for your money, 1l. 16s., after you had the goods—I made none unless Whitehouse applied to you—I don't know if I had a letter from you from Wheat Street, Maidstone, telling me you had a letter from Stubbs applying for money, and asking me not to summons you, as I had sent more goods than you had ordered; I don't remember such a letter—I don't remember a letter saying you would be in London in a fortnight and would call and pay me, or anyone calling and offering me money—I have not seen a gentleman who called on two consecutive days and offered me the money—I don't know he did so.

Cross-examined by Simmonds. I was with one firm in the wine trade for 22 years previous to being in the soap trade—that was the only firm I was in—I was in my own name, Gillespey—I had no partner named Alexander in that business—I bought the name of Alexander with this business—I did not advertise for a partner—I was not bankrupt a little while ago—I have been in this business about three years, I dare say—I dare say I engaged Whitehouse as my traveller before 13th July—he entered the order for Hamilton on 18th August—I sent the order in on 25th August—my books would not account for it; it was Pickford's delivery—I presume it would be all sent together—the amount came to 6l. 11s. 6d. with the cases—I have only one date of delivery, 26th August—it was in one invoice, which you have—if you have two receipts, it may be Pickford's fault—I have not Druce's name on my list—whether soap improves or spoils by keeping depends on whether it is kept in a proper place; it must not be exposed much to the air; if you put house-hold soap in a cellar it improves, and if you put toilet soap there it perishes—the perfume does not evaporate in these screw-top bottles if they are screwed down—this Eau de Cologne is genuine, made from the recipe from the old firm—it is only third quality, at 4s. a dozen the ounce bottles—if a traveller took off 25 per cent, it was at his discretion and came out of his commission—I put your account, which was due, into Stubbs's hands, the same evening that I had been going about looking at the different customers—how could I instruct Stubbs to take off discount if there was none to take off?—your account was unsatisfactory, and I wanted to get the money as soon as possible—I did not know I was going to lose it—the goods were not at your place—I did not go there—I called when I had a notice from Stubbs, to know the reason why, and there was no one in the place—you might have been out looking after your customers.

Cross-examined by MR. PEARCE. This is the order I received from Whitehouse for Gosling—I don't remember if Whitehouse told me it was the first transaction—if Whitehouse said he was a small dealer I should think he could do nothing with my goods—I do not know that the terms between Whitehouse and Gosling were that he should have

three months' credit—I should assume if a regular traveller knew his money would become due on the account being collected he would collect it the next day if he could—Whitehouse had to collect the money—the goods were delivered on 4th August—I am not aware they were seized by the police on 5th October at Gosling's place—Whitehouse received one-third commission on Saturday for orders he gave me—ours is not a comparatively new business; I am new in it—this was the only transaction with Gosling—Gosling would be applied to for payment through Whitehouse, who had the statements—I applied among the rest through Stubbs the day after my partner arrived in town, and the day before proceedings were taken, because things were just coming to a climax—I hear now for the first time that all the soap supplied to Gosling was seized on his premises—none was seized at Chapman's that I know of—there is 7 1/2 per cent, discount on this order—we had nothing to do with allowing discount—that might be his way of putting it, and is a matter for himself; my letter to Whitehouse explains it—that was the only transaction.

Cross-examined by MR. HEDDON. I was not in the shop when the soap was found—the only application I made for money was through Stubbs, shortly before Hawkins arrest in October.

Cross-examined by MR. HUTTON. These were the two orders executed to Ledicott; the first was sent on 18th July, and the next on 17th August—they were not at three months—it would not be in the discretion of the traveller as to time—they were all 30 days—we never take orders as three months' orders—we do not press for credit for over three months in cases where credit is good—application was made to Ledicott through Stubbs—I received this letter from Stubbs, and went to Ledicott with the letter in my hand. (This letter said he was surprised at the letter he had received, as he expected three months' credit.) I stayed at his place while he wrote a letter—I went through a shop into a sort of back half kitchen, whatever it may be—I saw Ledicott at the door—I applied for the goods—the goods were given to me, and I drove them away—the amount of the goods must have been 1l. 13s. 6d. at the two accounts—I have not applied for payment; the prisoner called in a cab and paid the amount—I don't know the date of the warrant for his arrest; it was before he was arrested—my books are not here—I have not in my books any accounts of three months' credit—we have what is termed a contract.

Cross-examined by MR. MURPHY. I saw the order for the 16l. lot; that is, the second order—it did not come through Whitehouse—we are not household soap makers—I ent perfumed soap—it was ordinary soap that he had before; it is quoted at 16l.—ours would not do for scrubbing—Whitehouse introduced Wright as a customer, and qualified him as highly respectable; he appeared to be so—I don't suggest he does not appear respectable—the trade take advantage of three months' credit, and if it is a good house we submit to have it taken—on the second occasion I put Wright through Stubbs, who said he had a clean sheet, or as much as that—I said that at the police-court; it means a good deal—I have never seen Wright personally—I know now where his shop is, it is opposite Tarn's.

Cross-examined by Brown. I applied for your money through Stubbs—my arrangement with Whitehouse was that he should pay himself out of this 26 per cent., to be divided between him and the customers, so that he could allow them what he liked—I may have said at the police-court

my books had not been posted while my partner was away—it happened about the time of year when one partner is resting—the order-book was not posted into the ledger—if we applied ourselves before going to Stubbs we should be doing nothing else but being about on foot; we have too many customers—I am in my business from 8 o'clock to 7 o'clock at night, and am fully occupied—on this occasion I took the opportunity of looking after these accounts—I did it at the wrong time; I should have done it before I sent the goods—if you were ready to pay the money you could have explained to Stubbs about the discount.

Cross-examined by MR. G. DILL. On 22nd August I sent in 4l. 6s. worth of goods—I had not seen Hancorn; I don't recognise him now—Whitehouse told me his mother had died, and money was coming in for him—I cannot tell you whether it was after that I sent in this 4l. 10s. worth—some conversation took place in the presence of a detective—I cannot tell who it was—I did not send in an order after speaking to him.

Cross-examined by Simon. Whitehouse spoke of you; I had no other reference—he said it was not necessary to inquire of Stubbs; he said he had known you many years; that you knew pursers, and were able to sell your goods on board ship—he told me you were a grocer; both grocer and purser, I think—I have heard all these sorts of things since—I presume he said you were a grocer—you were supplied with goods in the name of Edwards on 26th August—the account would be due next day in our way of dealing; that is to say, cash within a month—I should think myself entitled to have my money next day—that may not be on the invoice; there may be other things not on the invoice either—if he were dealing honestly I don't think our traveller would give three months, because his money would be pending then for three months—I don't know the day you were arrested or appeared at the police-court—very likely you were arrested on 24th September—I placed the matters in the hands of Stubbs all at the same time—I went to the police-court and swore an information after I put it into Stubbs's hands; I cannot give dates—it was before your arrest—goods have been found at Chapman's; other goods than those of Haydon, Hamilton, and yourself must have been found there; we only recognised the goods by the names being on the perfumery.

Cross-examined by MR. KEMP. The name of our firm is Alexander and Company—I have heard Simon had two or three names—Chapman told us he heard Simon had married Miss Harper, and used that name at the beginning of this year—this is part of the goods that came from Chapman's premises belonging to me—on that is pasted "Lot 63"—on several boxes among the goods delivered up to the police was "Lot" so-and-so—when we discovered them at Chapman's place we saw them—this is a sample of our pumice soap—it is not damaged; it is in the state it would be in three or four months after leaving our premises; it is in the state in which it loaves our premises, we send it out more or less like this—pumice soap has the peculiarity of not having a special finish in appearance; that is not detrimental to the soap nor to the appearance of the soap—retail dealers are not guided in the purchase of a speciality of soap by its appearance—you can scarcely call this soap—I do not suggest that, in the transaction with Rose, Chapman was doing anything wrong—he sold him certain pumice soap which appears on my list at 16s.; with my assent it was invoiced at 12s.—I should not give my

traveller 25 per cent, off that; that was another traveller; he had a salary of 3l. a week, and was not on commission at all—I paid him salary in way of commission; he was a regular traveller—I should not allow Whitehouse, if he got an order amounting to 12 gross, to sell for 12s. instead of 16s.; it would injure the trade; that was his own offer—with a large house a traveller might make a reduction—if Whitehouse had an order from Chapman for a gross of goods, I should not allow him to reduce the price from 16s. to 12s.—Rose supplied 10 gross on a contract order—if Whitehouse had made a contract for 10 gross to a large house, I would have allowed him to sell at 12s. instead of 16s.; when he had done that I certainly should, not have allowed him 25 per cent. off the sum at which I sold it—it is with my sanction that the price of a large order from a wholesale store is reduced from 16s. to 12s., but the traveller gets nothing out of that; he gets 25 per cent. off our list price—in the first instance Whitehouse would not reduce our price from 16s. to 12s.; it is done in Chapman's case because that was an order we took through our own establishment as it were, the traveller was one of our staff—if Whitehouse had got an order for 10 gross of goods marked in our catalogue at 16s., I would not have allowed him to make a contract with Chapman to sell it for 12s.; at 16s. less 25 per cent.—I went to Chapman's on the 21st with a policeman—I suppose there was nothing in the policeman's dress to show he was a policeman—we were shown upstairs into Mr. Chapman's office—we went there twice; the first time he was out, the second time he was upstairs—I saw no ledger, and he told us he had none—I did not see him writing in a book—he must have heard us coming upstairs; he was sitting on a stool, and looked round at us—I saw no books before him—he was asked by me or the detective "Have you any goods of James Alexander in your establishment?"—he considered a little and said "No, I don't think I have"—the policeman, I believe, introduced himself as a detective at first—coming up he said "I am a police officer"—the detective told him when he came up he was a detective—the detective said it was a serious matter several times—the detective said "l am a police officer, it is a serious matter, please look," many times—the detective asked him to turn up his books—he said, pulling out a long file, "These are my books, these are all my invoices," and he pulled out another file, I don't remember what he said then—the detective said "If you act square to us we will act square to you," and then after that I saw a piece of soap lying there, and said "This is ours," and then he remembered he had some goods of Alexander and Co.—we were two hours and a half there—"Very likely," he said, "I have some goods with the name of Alexander"—I cannot say, it may have happened in the course of conversation; it did happen in the course of conversation—the detective then said "We have the soap and they are all here"—Chapman said he bought from a man named Brent at the door—he said he bought from people who attended sales; this man Brent attended sales—the perfumes were exposed in the shop below, and the soaps were in the cellar—I saw no soaps in the shop—the policeman did not take up any—Chapman invited us to go through the file—the detective found receipts relating to our goods; I stood back—I scarcely had a word to say about it—Chapman called his man Thorpe and said "Count all the essences, perfumes, and soap we have bought from men who go

to sales"—that was a long time afterwards; he did not say it in those exact words, but that is the exact meaning he conveyed to the man—I didn't know Thorpe's name—I don't know that he said "men that have gone to sales," he only referred to one man—he first said he had dealt with Brent, and then he referred to Simon afterwards and that Hancorn—I cannot remember if certain names were read over to Mr. Champion by the detective; I was there all the time—Chapman did not say "I cannot remember any of them except Simon and Harper, and that is only one man"—he only discovered the two men because he found a receipt on his premises—he found a receipt of Harper and said "This is one and the same man"—he may have gone on to say "His wife has a shop in the name of Harper, the name she married his in"—I have only seen two receipts produced, one signed Simon and the other Harper—I believe those are the only two I saw—I came away and went back on 23rd September—I think all the goods were produced on the same date, because we kept saying that was not enough—we found all the goods there on the 23rd—I pledge myself that the whole of the goods I saw on the second occasion were produced to me on the first, because they fetched them from another shop afterwards. when we said there were more—that was an ironmonger's shop—it may be a shop now where they sell soap and candles and oil, it was not then because I saw it, I swear that—he afterwards referred to buying of men who attended sales—afterwards he mentioned one or two names—he said "I bought currants from a man named Brent, and if I had not bought them at the price I should not be able to buy them at all"—the whole of the goods were given up to the police, and have remained in police custody up to the present time—I keep an order book; it is posted—it is not here—I post that into the ledger; it was neglected during the time my partner was away, during September; one portion of the posting of the order book—Chapman has a very large shop and a very large business; I believe it is a ready-money business—I should have no hesitation in executing his orders if he gave them to me—these are the only two invoices I recognise as produced by Chapman on my first visit, while he was looking for them he mentioned Brent as the man he bought the goods of, but he did not name Harper or Simon—he went up and down the file two or three times, he said he had heard in the summer that Simon and Harper were the same, that was late in the interview—some perfumery was exposed for sale in the shop, and then we asked to go to the cellar, and found some soap there, damaged by damp; I saw some cheese there, and a lot of other articles; the pumice soap was found in a private part of the house, upstairs—there were over 160 boxes of it, and also some perfumes, and besides that, Chapman's man brought 10 or 12 boxes of universal soap from the ironmongery department on the other side of the road—the detective said he was a detective officer, on going into the room where Chapman was.

JAMES CORY . I am one of the firm of Sardou and Co., perfumers, Red Cross Street—we advertised in June for a traveler, and Whitehouse called, and we arranged with him to travel on commission—he was to have 10 per cent.—I told him our terms were cash in a month—on 4th July he introduced Ledicott, of Weston Street, Bermondsey—White-house brought the order and gave it to me, and the goods were sent off, value 18s. 9d.—that account was paid on 28th October—I received an

order through Whitehouse from Barnes, 2, Church Street, Rotherhithe, which was executed on 16th July, and goods to the amount of 1l. 18s. were sent—on the same paper as that order was an order from J. Osborn, of 5, Cranbourn Terrace, Munster Street, Fulham—on 18th July I executed that, and sent goods to the value of 1l. 18s., both orders were for the same amount—neither has been paid—there was also an order from Brown, Green Lane, Penge, for the same amount of goods, 1l. 18s.—we delivered them on 18th July—that has not been paid—I also received from Whitehouse an order from Hancorn, 18, Richardson Street, Long Lane, Borough; it came on Hancorn's card, enclosed in a letter from Whitehouse, and on 25th July I supplied Hancorn with goods to the value of 19s., that has not been paid—I received an order from H. Hawkins, of 8, Leveter Lane, High Street, Peckham, through Whitehouse, in his writing, and supplied the goods value 1l. 19s., on 13th August—we have not been paid for them—I sent an invoice, someone called on us, and in consequence we allowed Hawkins three months' credit—the next order from Whitehouse was for Edwards, 33, Barchester Street, Poplar, and we supplied him with goods value 3l. 12s., which have not been paid for—I received an order in writing from H. Wright for goods value 3l. 12s. on July 15th—that was not executed—and another from George Price, of Spa Road, enclosed in a letter from Whitehouse for goods value 19s. 1d.—I supplied them on 25th July, they have not been paid for—in all about 40l. worth of goods were sent out of our establishment on Whitehouse's orders; he received his commission on all—of that about 2l. has been paid—he told me when he brought in the orders that he knew these people well, and had done business with them previously—on 26th September I went to Chapman's premises, Edgware Road, with a police officer, and saw a quantity of goods which I identified as part of the goods supplied on Whitehouse's orders—I did not see any of the goods exposed for sale in the shop—one of the assistants brought every packet to me to look at; I don't know where they were taken from—our essences are 6s. 3d. a dozen if ordered in half gross, 6s. if ordered in one gross, lots—6s. is the lowest price—35 3/4 dozen of our essences at wholesale price would amount to about 10l. 15s. at 6s.—at end of August I had an interview with Whitehouse, and told him some of the goods had been returned as not ordered, and that the accounts were becoming due, and I must wait a month before I continued my relations with him—I always paid him the commission that was due—he left my service.

Cross-examined by Whitehouse. The difference between 19s. 3d. and 19s. 9d. is probably the cost of boxes and package—Edwards's order I gave as 3l. 12s.—your order is for 6 dozen, which came to 1l. 17s. 6d., but Edwards came and increased it personally to 12 dozen—he arranged to take the extra 6 dozen to save 3d. a dozen—there was no arrangement to give him three months' credit—I have an order for Wright for 3l. 12s.; you did not stop our sending that; we inquired about it—I did not admit at the police-court—two accounts have been paid, only one in full—Ledicott has not paid his; Mackenzie paid 1l. on account—Littlewood has not paid—I had no complaints to make about you travelling—you had no money transactions with us.

Cross-examined by MR. HUTTON. We do not give three months' credit; people sometimes take it—Ledicott's goods were delivered on 4th July,

and were paid for on 18th October—I sent a collector there; that was our first application.

Cross-examined by Hayes. I made no application for your money except through the post when it became due; you would not have got the statement if the month had not expired—our terms are 2 1/2 per cent, at one month; if our traveller gave more he exceeded his duty—articles such as ours may be sold at three months—I do not know Crosse and Blackwell's or Yateman's terms.

Cross-examined by MR. DILL. Our entire transactions with Hancorn were one order for 19l. 1s.

Cross-examined by Simon. I do not remember your calling on me with reference to your order; I think you saw my partner—I have no entry when the goods to Edwards were delivered—I have no account of the terms; you did not see me—I am certain my partner did not give you credit for three months.

Cross-examined by MR. KISCH. I carry on business as Sardou and Co.—there is nobody of that name in the firm; I came into Sardou's business—we supply goods wholesale—we supply large retail shops, not small ones—we do not supply wholesale to retail shops, not under what are called wholesale houses—they again retail them to retail shops—they are middle houses—we cannot tell the ultimate destination of those goods—some of the essences sell better than others—cinnamon is a less saleable essence—celery would not be in such demand as vanilla—essences get less in quantity by evaporation, and therefore less valuable and less saleable—the bottles we use are special bottles; that is 2-ounce bottles; it is ounce by measure, not by weight; we have no idea of the weight—I should think they weighed less than 2 ounces.

Re-examined. The liquid measure is 2 ounces—I saw some of the bottles that were recovered; so far as I saw there was no sign of evaporation in them.

GEORGE STEEL . I am managing clerk to the Antilles Produce Company, 4, Fenchurch Avenue—the proprietors are Anderson, Bonnor, and Company—last June we advertised for a traveller, and Whitehouse subsequently called on me—he named several houses which he represented, and showed me samples in his bag as representing those firms—I won't swear whether he mentioned Alexander and Co., but it is my impression he did—he said he had been in the trade calling on firms of the class we required for at least the last 14 or 15 years, and that his customers were all a very good kind, because he had an old connection—he had known his customers many years, and could introduce the very highest class of people—I agreed to give him a trial—he produced 15 or 20 orders—we supplied goods in consequence of those orders to the extent of 46l. odd, out of which we have been paid 7l. to 8l., rather less, I think—I received an order from him from Hancorn, and supplied goods to the amount of 2l. 7s., delivered in two instalments on 6th and 21st July—that has not been paid—I received an order from Osborn and Co., 5, Cranbourn Terrace, Munster Place, Fulham, and supplied goods to them value 5l. 12s. 6d.; 14th and 22nd July are the invoice dates—I have not received that money—there was also an order from E. Brown the same day, and we supplied goods to him, value, 4l. 17s. 6d.; also an order from Barnes, 3, Church Street, Rotherhithe, and supplied him with goods value 2l. 2s. on 6th and 22nd July; that has not been paid—on the same

paper was an order from Hawkins, of Blue Anchor Lane, Peckham—in consequence of making inquiries we refused to execute the order; the amount was 16s. 6d.—I received an order from H. Wright, 134, Newington Causeway, and supplied him with goods value 6l. 15s.—on the day we delivered the goods some neighbour gave us information, and we sent to Wright and got back a portion of the goods—there is still an outstanding balance of 3l. 1s. 6d., which has not been paid; no cash was paid—I received an order from Gosling, of 1, Preber Street, for about 25s.; we did not supply the goods-amongst his orders were two from Ledicott on 1st and 7th July; we supplied the goods, value 3l. 6d.—we sent for payment frequently—he afterwards paid half the account to our carman and we received it; he came and paid the balance after the prosecution was instituted—I spoke to Whitehouse particularly in reference to Ledicott, as one of our juniors had seen him dining there on one or two occasions—I said I did not like the idea that he was mixed up with our clients in that manner, and I severely reprimanded him—Whitehouse said he had known Ledicott a great many years, and from Whitehouse's idea of him I should have thought he was a most extraordinary man and a man of unlimited wealth; that is what he gave us to understand—about this time I caused inquiries to be made through a Trade Protection Society—I told Whitehouse the answer we had received was that Ledicott's was a thieves' meeting house—he said he did not think so; he seemed somewhat surprised, but did not make many remarks—he said he had known him a great many years, and that Ledicott had always paid; that he had had a good deal of money from him at various times—when this came out we made inquiries about the other people, and got the most shocking replies, and I told Whitehouse those were not the class of people we wanted to do business with; they would not suit us at all; they were all a bad lot, and in consequence of that he was discharged—I received an order from Price, of Spa Road, through Whitehouse and in his writing on 22nd July—I supplied goods, value 3l. 7s. 6d., for which we have not received payment.

Cross-examined by Whitehouse. I engaged you at the latter part of June, 1886—you gave no references, you mentioned several houses which you represented, and showed me their samples—I did not apply to them because I was simply giving you a trial, and I did not think it worth while—I am not sure whether you gave me a reference to Alexander—I was not satisfied with the orders you brought in—you told me Garland's, in the Kent Road, were good people but that was not this Mr. Garland, unfortunately—we did not trouble to find out about this gentleman—no invoices were paid at the time—now I think Ledicott has paid, and Booth, of Starch Green, and Sterne, of High Holborn, no one else I think, from my list—Sage, of Clerkenwell, has not paid—we have had some returns from him, but no money at all—Vineall of Nunhead, has not paid—we have repeatedly sent to him—I have nothing to do with arresting him.

Cross-examined by MR. PRICE. The order from Gosling is in White-house's writing, it is not signed by Gosling—it would be early in July; if was not executed—we gave Whitehouse 10 per cent, commission, and our cash terms, as we impressed on him, are 30 days—he never received cash from us—we paid him commission on orders, sent in, long before they were executed; he was a poor man.

Cross-examined by MR. HEDDON. The order from Hancock is invoiced on 5th July—we wrote for the money—some time after, in July, Hancock came to our office and said we had written for the money for goods which had never been sent; the clerk would have done that; I expressed my regret to him—I might have given him a bottle to show my regret, I don't remember.

Cross-examined by MR. HUTTON. We supplied lime juice cordial and sauce to Ledicott—a case of lime juice would be three dozen at 11s., 33s.—we have been paid all, not all at the same time, some after proceedings were taken—we sent our cart down repeatedly to get the goods back or our money—he paid a carman a portion of the money and gave us a portion of the goods, and then the balance was paid three days after the prosecution was started—I don't remember any dispute about the lime juice—we never have any dispute about it.

Cross-examined by MR. MURPHY. Whitehouse could not give Wright three months' credit—I only presume he can give the terms we are always supposed to give—he was arrested before the three months were out.

Cross-examined by Brown. You had goods to the amount of 4l. 17s. 6d.—we have had back goods to the amount of 2l. 2s., there is still a balance which you have not paid.

WILLIAM BLENKARN . I live at 180, Salem Road, Peck ham, and am sole agent for Harrison and Co., of London and Leicester, manufacturers of hydroleine preparations—I advertised in the Daily Telegraph for a traveller in September, 1886—this is Whitehouse's letter in reply—he entered our service as traveller in September, 1887—he showed me a book having the names of a lot of customers in it, saying they were very good men, that he had done business with them for a long time—he said he was representing Wright and Ashbridge, a black lead firm, and Alexander and Co., soap makers—he mentioned their names when I asked for a reference—he said he would rather I did not apply to them as he was in receipt of a salary from Messrs. Wright and Ashbridge and they might object to his taking a second commission; I was satisfied and did not apply to them—he introduced to me about 13 different names—he brought me the orders; I asked if they were good men; he said yes, he had done business with them previously, and always got the money for the goods he had sold—I said as they were small amounts, and he said they were good men, I should not put them through Stubbs—I took his word, and did not make inquiries—he brought me an order from Ledicott dated 14th September, and I supplied Ledicott with goods value 2l. 5s. 6d.—when the police made a seizure on the premises our goods were not found there, they have never been returned—we have not got the goods or the money—nothing has been paid—we had an order from Hawkins, Blue Anchor Lane, on September 2nd and supplied him with goods value 3l. 6s. 6d.—we sent our carman to see if we could get them back—we got some back, leaving a balance of 12s. 9d. still unpaid, which was not applied for—we got an order through the post on Hancorn's post-card, dated 5th September, 1887, for 1l. 6s. worth of goods, we supplied them—they have not been paid for, and we have not recovered them.

Cross-examined by Whitehouse. I engaged you about 5th September—you were only with me two or three weeks before you were arrested—Hancorn's order came through the post, not from you—I think you were

not representing me at that time—none of the accounts were due when you were arrested—I have been subpoenaed to come here by the police.

Cross-examined by MR. HUTTON. I have since heard Hawkins say that Whitehouse sent him more stuff than he required—Stretton, the carman, said Hawkins complained that too much had been sent—I cannot say how much Stretton withdrew in consequence; but he said Hawkins complained that too much was sent, and some was returned—I gave 30 days' credit, and Ledicott's money would not be due till October 14th—I do not know that he was arrested on the 13th.

Cross-examined by MR. DILL. I sometimes called on Hancorn after some handbills had been left, but I never saw him till I was at the police-court—I saw a woman in the shop, and said "This is a funny sort of shop, the shutters are up and it is dark"—I did not ask for an order.

JOHN LANGRIDGE (Police Sergeant M). On 13th January, 1883, I was in this Court when Whitehouse was tried—I produce a certificate of his conviction and sentence to five years' penal servitude—he was discharged on ticket of leave on 13th December, 1884; he was charged with getting vinegar by false pretences, and William Parks and Henry Barnes were charged with him—that was the same Henry Barnes against whom a warrant is now out, and who we have been unable to take—a warrant was also out against Henry May in association with the same fraud; I cannot say whether he is the same May who is now in the dock.

Cross-examined by Whitehouse. I made inquiries and found that that was your first conviction.

Re-examined. There was a warrant out against him in 1880, which was not executed.

Cross-examined by May. I did not know you till I saw you at the police-court in this matter; no one of your name was convicted in the vinegar frauds.

GEORGE HARVEY (Police Sergeant M). I was in charge of a prosecution here in August, 1880, against several people for obtaining goods by fraud—I had a warrant against Whitehouse, but could not get him—William Farrington was also charged with the same frauds, and convicted and sentenced to 18 months' hard labour—the prisoner Simmonds was also charged, but by the name of Edward Simmonds; he was acquitted; all the travellers were acquitted in that case—several facts against Whitehouse were given in evidence in the hearing of Simmonds.

Cross-examined by Simmonds. The Magistrate did not say he saw no reason why I should connect you with the other prisoners; he sent you here for trial.

JOHN HARN . I am a builder, of 71, Denmark Hill—in June this year I let 41, Cuthill Road, Denmark Hill, to the prisoner Simmonds; he gave Mr. Farrington, of 4, Addington Square, Camberwell, as a reference—I wrote to him and received this reply (produced)—he also referred to a man named Bryancourt, and received this letter from him; and Simmonds left the house about the middle of September—I never received a farthing of rent from him—it was a private house.

Cross-examined by Simmonds. You did not send back the key, nor has the landlady had it—I am only the agent.

ALBERT FOX BEVANS . I am an auctioneer, of 7, Parade, Lordship Lane—I was formerly manager to a firm who let No. 1, Creborne Street

to Gosling, in January, 1887, at 30l. a year—there were six rooms—he has paid all the rent—it is a private house, but business was conducted there.

Cross-examined by MR. PHILLIPS. As far as I know he was an honest tradesman—his was a general business—this (produced) is a receipt for his snuff and tobacco licence.

JAMES LADD . I am a rent collector, of 22, Goodman Road, Peckham Rye—in July, 1887, the prisoner Hawkins took a baker's shop at 8, Blue Anchor Lane."

Cross-examined by MR. MEAD. Other things were sold there—it was a general shop—I found him highly respectable and a good tenant, he paid his rent punctually—I went there; the house was properly furnisned, and the shop was well stocked—in my opinion he was carrying on a genuine business.

Re-examined. He paid for everything as far as I know.

EDWARD TANNER SNEE . I am manager to Arohell and Cockrill, solicitors, 21, Tooley Street—the prisoner Ledicott was the assignee of the original lease of 48, Weston Street, Bermondsey, and No. 15, Melior Street—they are both in one lease, it is all one premises.

Cross-examined by MR. HUTTON. He has been there since 10th Aug., 1886—the rent has always been paid.

WALTER COPELAND WEIR . I manage a building society at 122, Southampton Road—on,24th June, 1887, the premises 134, Newington Causeway, were let to the defendant Wright, at 70l. a year, to be paid monthly—he paid the first monthly instalment; we distrained for the second and it was paid—on September 26th we had to distrain again—about the end of September he sold the business, which was a restaurant and hotel.

WILLIAM STONE . I am a builder, of Havelock Terrace, Battersea—in August this year I agreed to let to the prisoner Wright No. 67, Elm Road, Clapham Park, at 47l. a year, with possession from September 29th—it was a private 10-roomed house—some of his things were placed on the premises.

THOMAS WOOTTON . In January, 1886, I let a general shop, 2, Green Lane, Penge, to a man named Banks, and the prisoner Brown came there as his manager, and Banks afterwards left and Brown continued as my tenant—he has paid me rent for the last three-quarters of a year—I put the brokers in when the half-year was due, and the goods were sold—there is nothing there now to distrain upon, and he still owes me rent—it is a general shop.

JOHN WORCESTER . I am a house agent, of Victoria Road, Peckham Rye—in June, 1886, I let Brown a shop in Prince's Street, Evelyn Street, Deptford—he gave his name Charles Brown—he never paid any rent—he left without notice in October.

Cross-examined by Brown. You wrote to me and told me you had shut up the shop—you suggested an acceptance for 12l. 10s., and promised to pay me 1l. a month—I have never had possession—a quarter's rent was 10l., but you were there a month over the quarter—you stripped the shop of the fixtures—I have never presented the bill, but I wrote to you for payment.

HENRY NEWMAN HUMPHREYS . In October, 1886, I let a shop 38, Gibbon Road, Nunhead, for 30l. a year to Brown, in the name of Charles

Brown—I went there in January for the rent; he paid a portion then, and the balance in February—he left on 12th April, 1887.

Cross-examined by Brown. All the rent is paid.

GEORGE HENRY NEWTON . I let a shop to Hayes, which he occupied till February, 1887, when I put the brokers in for the last quarter's rent—he purchased the goodwill and fixtures from the previous tenant—I live in the neighbourhood—to the best of my belief he carried on a legitimate business, and the name of Hayes was on the door—when I distrained the rent was paid—the business was assigned to him by a man named Browning—the rent was 40l.

Cross-examined by Hayes. Putting the broker in was not through any fault of yours—a man purchased the business and failed to complete, but a day or two afterwards the rent was handed to my agent—I passed frequently, and saw you there with your apron on, and a boy with you, and latterly you had a man—it was a cheesemonger's shop.

ALFRED RICHARD GROVE . I am a pawnbroker, of 44, Greyhound Road, West Kensington—on 10th August the prisoner Hayes pledged a box of soap with me in the name of Young for 1s. 6d.—this is the ticket.

Cross-examined by Hayes. You also pledged a suit of clothes with me, and very likely a watch.

JOHN HENRY PALMER . I am an oilman, of 613, Fulham Road—I know Hayes as Osborne—he sold me some vinegar, sauces, black lead, and Venetian red, for which I produce his receipts. (Signed "Pro Osborne &co., J. Osborne.")

Cross-examined by Hayes. I paid you the ordinary price—I was opening a new shop, and you introduced yourself, and said you had a business at Hammersmith which you had let, and brought me some of the things, and were about to open a baker's shop at Fulham—there is no name on the cheap sauces.

Cross-examined by MR. KEMP. I am a grocer—I should charge you from 2 1/2 d. to 10 1/2 d. for a bottle of Worcester sauce—I get cheap sauces from Howard, of the Old Kent Road—they cost me 1 1/2 d. each.

HENRY FREDERICK MAY . I am clerk to Waring and Nicholson, 53, Parliament Street, architects and surveyors—I let the shop 18, Richardson Street, Bermondsey, to the prisoner Hancorn on 3rd May, 1887—he stayed there till he was arrested.

Cross-examined by MR. DILL. I thought he was doing a good business in the bread and general trade—he told me he expected money under his mother's will, and as soon as he got it he was going to stock his shop and pay me—he asked me to give him credit, and I let him run a few weeks' rent.

MR. JONES (Re-examined by Hayes). You said that you brought it for a customer who was not at home, and you left it with me because you did not want to carry it about with you.

GEORGE TAYLOR . I am an house agent, of Hanover Park, Peckham—I let the shop 62, Purley Street, Peckham, to the prisoner Simon in October, 1885—he remained there till April, 1886—the place was sold, and I stopped the money for the rent—Simon afterwards came again, and I let him No. 90 Wells Street, which he occupied in the name of Harper, which he said was his wife's name—I got no rent, and put in a distress.

(Simon here stated that he wished to PLEAD GUILTY.)

FRANK BOYTON . I am an auctioneer, of Fulham Road—I let No. 5, Cranmer Terrace, Fulham, to the defendant Haves in March, 1887, in the name of Hayes—he remained till the end of September, but paid no rent.

Cross-examined by Hayes. I referred you to the solicitor to prepare the lease, and I believe he took your references—you saw me twice, and said you would not do anything more till you got the lease—I admit that you paid for it—the windows were broken when your wife went out.

Re-examined. I never saw him there after April—a printed form was sent for the rent, and then a clerk would call.

RICHARD BOYLES (City Policeman 541). I have frequently been on duty on Dowgate Hill—I know the Shades under Cannon Street Station—I have seen all the prisoners but Chapman in company outside the Shades, and I was once called into the Cannon public-house to put Ledicott out—I requested him to go, and he went out.

Cross-examined by MR. MOYSES. I have been three years in the force—I never went inside the Shades.

Cross-examined by Whitehead. I know now that you are employed at 11, Dowgate Hill—I did not know it then.

Cross-examined by MR. MEAD. I have been there nine or ten months—the prisoners were in the dock at the police-court when I identified them, and I was invited to touch each one whom I knew.

Cross-examined by MR. HUTTON. I was not at Dowgate Hill for the purpose of watching them—the only time I saw Ledicott there was when I was called to put him out—it was this year—I will swear he is the man.

Cross-examined by MR. PHILLIPS. I have seen Gosling about the neighbourhood of the Shades and at the Cannon, walking up and down outside, and talking to some of the others; I cannot say which—I have seen Stephenson there—I am sure I have seen Gosling there more than ouce during the last nine months.

Cross-examined by Wright. I had no particular duty on Dowgate Hill—before I went to the police-court I was told that I was to see if I could identify the men in the dock—I have seen Wright there.

Cross-examined by May. I have seen you there—I cannot say whether in July, August, or September, but I know your face—I was on duty and round there every half hour—the Shades closes at 8.

Cross-examined by Hayes. I have seen you there, but cannot say with which of the other prisoners—I did not touch two other prisoners at the police-court as having been in your company—I have not said that I saw you coming from Cannon Street Station.

Cross-examined by MR. DILL. I have seen Hancorn round Dowgate. Hill several times before I saw him at the police-court.

Re-examined. I have seen May there in the afternoon; I am on duty from 2 o'clock to 6 o'clock, and sometimes from 6 o'clock to 10 o'clock.

WILLIAM OLDHAMPSTEAD (City Detective). During the last year and previously I have had the Shades and the Cannon public-houses under my observation, and also the Bell in Bush Lane, and the Sugarloaf, Little College Hill—they are all in one neighbourhood—I know White-house, Haydon, May, Simmonds, Osborne, Brown, Hayes, Hancorn, and Simon, but not Hawkins—I have seen them at the Shades, inside and outside, but not always in company; I more often met Simmonds—I

have known May, Simmonds, and Hancorn for years, meeting at different places, and meeting people who are not here.

Cross-examined by Whitehouse. I first saw you at the Shades about six months ago—I have seen you there with Simmonds and May—I do not know that you were employed opposite.

Cross-examined by Wright, I have charge of that district in plain clothes, and have had charge of the neighbourhood five years—I go into the Shades sometimes—we know the class of people who use the house, and we go in; we are suspicious—I sometimes go in to have a drink, sometimes to see what people are doing.

Cross-examined by May. I have seen you perhaps a dozen times—I have seen you about the Sugarloaf about two years—I do not know that the landlord is a distant relation of yours—you have been in my company there—I have seen you at the Shades and at the Bell.

Cross-examined by MR. PHILLIPS. I have seen Gosling three times with Simmonds and May outside the public-house, and I believe inside too, about six monthsago between 11 and 12 a.m.—I have not spoken to him.

Cross-examined by May. I am sure I have seen Gosling, with you on Dowgate Hill.

Cross-examined by Brown. I have seen you in the Shades during the last eight or ten months, and have seen you with Simmonds and with King, who is not here.

Cross-examined by Hayes. I only recollect seeing you once; that was outside the Shades—you might have just come from Cannon Street, but you were close to a group who were talking, and Simmonds was in conversation with persons in the group—no one has told me to say that.

Cross-examined by MR. DILL. I have seen Hancorn several times, both inside and outside the Shades.

ALFRED JOHN SAUNDERS (City Policeman). The witness Ashbridge called my attention to the Shades some time back, and I kept observation on the house—I have seen Whitehouse, May, and Simmonds in company, and, I think, Simon and Hancorn, but I will not swear it—I did not give evidence at the police-court, but I met Hawkins the next day just by the steps of Cannon Street Station, coming from the direction of the Shades towards Ludgate Hill—I spoke first—I said "You know where it is to-day?" meaning the Shades, as I had heard the evidence—he said "You made a mistake yesterday"—I said "That is all nonsense"—I had never seen him there before to my knowledge.

Cross-examined by Whitehouse. My attention was first called to you in the beginning of September—I have seen you with May and with Hallows, who is not in cuscody.

Cross-examined by MR. MEAD. Hawkins told me it was all nonsense—I do not think I made any mistake—I have been 3 1/2 years in the force—I won't swear to Haydon.

By the prisoner Hawkins. You were not interfering with anyone, but I addressed you because at the police-court, when Boyles gave evidence, you said "You are a liar; I don't know where it is" (The Shades)—I did not say to you "An officer gave your description last night at the police-court to a T," but the description answered very well—I did not say "Oh, we will warm it up for you at the Old Bailey"—I said nothing about coming to the Old Bailey.

JOHN BROGAN (Police Sergeant L). On 24th September I was with

Sergeant Williamson in the Walworth Road, and saw Simmonds and Whitehouse—I said to Simmonds "Is your name Hamilton?"—he said "No"—I said "Is your name Simmonds?"—he said "No"—I said "You answer the description of a person who is wanted on a warrant for being concerned with Whitehouse and others in obtaining a quantity of goods from Alexander and Co., of Lambeth"—he said "I will come, as I have not obtained goods by fraud"—at the station he made no answer to the charge, but refused his address—he was taken to the police-court, and before the case came on he said "I suppose we are not the only bad men in the world"—I said "I suppose not"—he said "How is it that Ledicott is not locked up?"—I said "I don't know"—on the same day, at 3 o'clock, I arrested Hancorn in Reading Road, Walworth, and told him the charge—he said "I have obtained no goods by fraud; I own that I have had goods from Alexander's on three months' credit, and when the time is up I shall pay for them"—he had a sack and a bag with him, and said he was going to purchase some bread—he gave his address, 18, Richardson Street—I went there in the daytime and found the shutters up and the door shut, but I had looked in previously, and only saw a couple of bottles of sweets; the door was then half open—on 5th October I took Gosling at 1, Creborne Road, East Dulwich, and told him he would be charged with obtaining goods from Alexander and Co.—he said "I have had some goods, but I meant to send them back; the traveller would leave them here, although I told him I did not want them"—I said "What traveller?"—he said "I don't know"—I afterwards examined his premises—it was a kitchen made into a shop, the basement of the front parlour, with steps going down—I found a large quantity of perfumery, soap, and vinegar, and six boxes of Universal soap identified by Delaspie—on 7th October I took Brown in Green Lanes, Penge, and told him the charge—he said "I know I had the goods, but my landlord has put the brokers in and sold me out for rent, therefore I am unable to pay"—he gave his address, 4, Green Lanes—it is a small shop; there was nothing whatever in it, neither goods nor furniture—on 27th October I arrested May at High Street, Sydenham—I read the warrant to him, and he said "I own I had goods from Alexander"—I paid "What became of them?"—he said "My wife used some of the soaps and perfumeries, and the others I have sold to the neighbours"—I said "I understand you are traveller for Mr. Cook"—he said "Has he been kicking up a row?"—I said "Yes"—he said "It is a bad job; I ought to have seen their shop before the orders were executed"—I said "How is it you have not?"—he said "I was in the habit of meeting them at the Corn Exchange, where I took their orders, and that Wright is the worst of the lot"—I had mentioned Wright and two or three others.

Cross-examined by May. I did not say "Do you know Wright?" nor did you say "I have only seen one once through the glass," nor did I say "He is the worst of the lot, he threatened to knock one of our chaps off the car the other night"—I did not know anything of him till later on—you did not tell me that you had taken some of the soap with you into the country where you went hopping every year—you were away, because we could not find you at your address—I did not say that if I could find any of the soap and the perfumes I would make it much lighter for you

at the trial—I did not say that Wright tried hard to knock one of our fellows off a car; it had not occurred at that time.

Cross-examined by MR. PHILLIPS. I saw exposed in Gosling's window some boxes of soap from Alexander and Co,—I asked what traveller he obtained them from—he said that he did not know his name—he did not say that the traveler Whitehouse had only been there once—I went over the whole house; it was not very well furnished, but I said that the beds were very good—I do not know that he supplies milk and butter round the neighbourhood; I did not notice any cans—I have been applied to for a list of all the goods I found in the house, but have not given it—I saw no blacking there; there was blacklead, soap, and gelatine—I took the whole of the things away, and the receipts and invoices—Gosling keeps one or two shops in the neighbourhood—he took a shop in Peckham Rye, and paid no rent, and when six months was up he left with the key, and they had to break in—he has paid the rent regularly of the house in which he is now—I have heard nothing against his character—the articles I took from his place are at the station; I gave the solicitor a list of them; this is it (produced); it would take a quarter of an hour to read it.

Cross-examined by MR. MURPHY. I know Wright's shop; it was shut up when my attention was drawn to it.

Cross-examined by Brown. I found in your shop-parlour a box and a table and a few paid bills, but no file—I found in your pocket-book a list of the things seized by the brokers—you told me that your landlord had seized everything I spoke to you about.

Cross-examined by MR. DILL. Hancorn had a brown bag or sack in his hand—I did notice any letters in it—when I went to his shop before he was arrested the shutters were all up but one—the sun was shining; the shop is on the sunny side, and it was afternoon—the door was half open; I could not see the whole of the shop, but I was satisfied there was very little there—I put my head in, and saw nothing but two small bottles of sweetstuff; they were not boxes.

Re-examined. I found these receipts (produced) in Brown's pocket-book, and this notice of a distress for rent—the goods I took from Gosling's shop have all been identified, and some by persons who are complaining in this case that they have not been paid for.

WILLIAM WILLIAMSON (Detective Officer L). On 15th September I had a man named Rose in custody—he had been employed by Mr. Delaspie, to whose premises I went and saw Henry Simon—I went again on 17th September, and saw the prisoner Whitehouse—Mr. Delaspie had a list in his hand which he read out to Whitehouse—it contained all the prisoners' names except Chapman—Whitehouse spoke of them all as men of good standing, who he had known, some of them, for 10, 12, and 15 years, and who had always paid, and that he knew Hamilton as a shipping agent—I had to go to Ledicott's, the Antelope, Bermondsey, half a dozen times between September 1st and September 22nd—it is a small beer-house with a general shop attached—it is a very low neighbourhood, where the demand for perfume is not so great as the necessity for it—I have seen Whitehead, Haydon, May, Simmonds, Hancorn, Ledicott, Simon, and others there—when I went on September 1st Whitehead and Simon were quarrelling about dividing their shares—Whitehouse, who was the worse for drink, said "I have done five years

already, and if that fellow doesn't brass up I will do 10," alluding to a man who is not in custody—"brass up" means "pay"—Ledicott was present—there was a general conversation between them, which wound up with "Don't forget dear old Alfred's fourpenny supper"—I was there as a commercial traveller—my second visit was September 20th; Whitehouse and a man not in custody were transferring orders from one to the other—they had books in which to enter the names of customers, and Barnes, said "How many have you got for me?"—Whitehouse took the names out of his book, and the man who I believe to be Barnes put them into his book, and then the other men gave Whitehouse names, which he entered in his book in Ledicott's presence—Barnes said "How about Alphie's order?"—Whitehouse said "Oh, yes; we must cake one from Alphie" (Ledicott)—on 24th September I saw Whitehouse leave Milton Street, Camberwell, and join Simmonds in the street—I followed them half a mile, and took Whitehouse on a warrant, which I read to him—he said "The accounts are not due yet; I let the people have three months' credit"—I found on him at the station a pocket-book and a card of Messrs. White and Ashbridge—on the same day I took Simon, who made a statement to me in reference to Chapman, and gave me the address, 33, Barchester Street, Poplar—I went there and found he occupied two small rooms at the back without carpets; a bedstead, bed, table, and two chairs were the only furniture—on 6th October I took Hawkins at 8, Blue Anchor Lane, Fulham, on a warrant, which I read—he said "I have obtained no goods by fraud; I intended sending them back; I only ordered a box of soap, and they sent me all this lot"—I asked why—he did not send them back to the firm—he made no reply—he sells bread, and I saw two or three boxes of sweets; it is a small general shop—I found there a number of things identified by Mr. Delaspie, Mr. Sewell, and other prosecutors—I found some hydrocene, and this tip-top tea—they are all costermongers in the neighbourhood, and it is not a likely part to have a demand for such things—on 10th October I took Wright in the New Kent Road, and read the warrant to him—he said "I have had the goods, and the brokers have taken them off for debts; Whitehouse pressed me to take the orders"—he gave his address 67, Elms Road, Clapham Park—he had before given it as 39, New Kent Road—I made inquiries there, through which I went to 67, Elms Road, which is a 10 or 12 roomed house—the windows had apparently new curtains—I knocked at the door, which was opened by a servant in a cap and apron—I went all over the house—I saw his bed and a child's bed on the floor, and the servant had a bed in the next room—a large trunk in the kitchen was used as a table, and there were two or three chairs—I found 24 boxes of soap, some tea, and a quantity of other things which have been identified, locked in a cupboard—on 13th October I saw Hayes in the street at Fulham—I had a warrant against him in the name of Osborne—a milkman pointed him out to me—he ran in at his door, No. 5, Cranmer Terrace, and I got there just in time to prevent his closing it—I said "Mr. Osborne, I am a police officer," and read the warrant to him—he said "I don't know what you mean; my name is not Osborne"—I said "Hayes"—he said "No, not Osborne or Hayes; I am a baker; what should I want with soap or perfumery?"—it is a very large baker's shop, a shelf was full of flour bags; I looked into them, they were full of sawdust—on the way to the station he said

"There has been something sent to my house for a man who lives with me"—two men stopped him in the street and said "Mr. Osborne, when are you going to pay that bill?" he said "I have not got a penny in my pocket"—I found on him at the station a cheque book on the London and South Western Bank Hammersmith, a pocket book, and 12 pawn-tickets, one of which relates to a box of soap, pledged with Mr. Jones in August, and identified by Mr. Delaspie—on 26th October I took Haydon at 17, Worlingham Road, Peckham; his wife opened the door, and I gave my name loudly as Purks, on which Haydon called out "Come in, Bill"—I went into the kitchen, saw Haydon, and read the warrant to him; he said "No more than I expected, but they cannot harm me, I will pull my master to pieces for this"—I asked who his master was, he said "Mr. Nagle"—I kept observation on Hancorn's shop for four or five hours from a beerhouse opposite, and I passed through the street several times, and only one or two shutters were down—I afterwards went in, some scents were found there—on 21st September I went with Mr. Delaspie to Chapman's shop, 242, Edgware Road, which is more premises than shop, it is very large, and he has premises on both sides of the way, butter and eggs on one side and ironmongery on the other—on entering I saw some scented soap and perfumery, with the name of Alexander and Co. on it, in a glass case—I put a tablet of the soap into my pocket—we went upstairs into Chapman's office, and found him alone—I said "Good afternoon, sir; I am a police officer, will you give me the names of the men who you have bought fancy soap and perfumery from?"—he said "I have bought no fancy soap or perfumery, I have only bought currants"—I said, "I have not come about currants," and showed him the tablet of soap which I took out of my pocket, and asked where he got it—he said, "Oh, yes, I bought that from a man who I know as a respectable tradesman, who comes to my shop with a pony and cart, he visits sales"—I asked him for the receipt, and to show me his books—he said "Those are my books," pointing to these two files (produced) "I only buy it from that one man, and his name is Brent"—as he went over the file I noticed that he passed over a receipt signed "Harper"—I stopped him and said, "Here, that is one of the men who has had goods"—he said "I have known that man for 10 years"—he then showed me a receipt signed "Simon," for perfumery value 2l., dated August 23rd—I asked him if those were all the receipts he had; he said "Yes"—I said "Now, look here, Mr. Chapman, if you act straightforward with us we will with you; where is the receipt for the perfumery we saw in the shop?" he said "I will go through the file again"—he then found this receipt signed "Simon," on one of Hancorn's cards, for perfumery amounting to 6l. 10s.—I could not understand it, and he said, "That is for perfumery and soap"—I again asked, him if that was all he had, referring to property of different firms; he said, "I will call my store-keeper, and have all the soap and perfumery up here"—he called out, Bring up all the soap that man brought, also the perfumery"—I then went with Mr. Delaspie and the storekeeper to the cellar, where we found a great quantity of soap, which Mr. Delaspie identified, and it was brought up to the shop, and then to the office, from which a door leads into the living part of the house, into which we went, and in a cupboard in a private room there we found some perfumery which Mr.

Delaspie identified—we then returned to the office, and I said to Chapman, "Are you sure that this is the lot?"—he said "Yes, that is all" Mr. Delaspie then showed him a tablet of soap lying on a box in the office, and said, "I have sent out a lot of this universal soap on Whitehouse's orders"—Chapman said, "Oh, yes, I have some of that," and told his storekeeper to fetch the soap from the other shop—the man went over the road, and brought over 10 or 12 large boxes of soap, similar to this, from the ironmongery shop—I said "Have you any receipt for that?"—he said it must be in the 2l. lot, as it was a job lot—the receipt for 2l. signed H. B. Simon, is for 10 dozen of perfumes; it has no reference to soap—Mr. Delaspie said, "No wonder my customers complain when they see my goods sold so cheap"—Chapman said "That is nothing, there are some boxes of stuff there which cost 1s. 9d., and I can buy them for 3d." pointing to some bottles in his office, "I never deal with travellers, I always deal with those men who visit sales; I have some currants there, if I bought them through a traveller I should have to pay twice the money for them"—he then went down with us to the shop, and told his storekeeper that if we called when he was out he was to give us every information—we then left—on 21st September I saw some essences exposed for sale in the shop which Mr. Cory, the representative of Sardou and Co., has since identified—they were two-ounce bottles, and were marked 3 1/2 d., and Mr. Delaspie's larger tablets of soap were exposed at 1d.—on September 23rd I went there again; Chapman was not there—I examined the place and came across three boxes which have been produced—they had the name of Edwards written on them, which is an alias of Simon; another had the name of Hancorn, and another Henessey, which is an alias of Simmonds—I went there again on 26th September with Mr. Cory and Inspector Chamberlain.

Cross-examined by Whitehouse. I did not ask you how long you had known Ledicott—I had been to Ledicott's before that day—I do not know that I arrested you as you were going to Mr. Alexander's; you told me that the accounts were not due; I found, I think, five accounts on you, I have them here—Simmonds was with you arm in arm—I know that you are on licence; I found it on you; you would have been arrested if you had not reported yourself regularly.

Cross-examined by MR. MOYSES. I searched Haydon's house but found nothing—I saw his wife and three or four children there, not ten,—Mr. Delaspie and several other gentlemen had sworn informations against him for conspiring to obtain goods by fraud—I said nothing to Haydon about Ledicott—I think I put down in my book every remark I made—I have not put down about the milkman addressing him as Osborne, nor did I mention it at the police-court.

Cross-examined by MR. HUTTON. I went to Ledicott on half a dozen different dates—it is a licensed house—I went with a seedy high hat and a black coat and a bag—Suffolk ale at 4d. a pot is a speciality there.

Cross-examined by May. A man named Westlake was arrested and there was nothing against him—I did not say outside the police-court that if you would tell me where Barnes and Price were I would make it light for you—I did not take a sovereign out of my pocket and say I would bet you 1l. that you had been seen with Barnes drinking within six weeks—I did not say that I would make it much lighter for you if you would

confess—I told you further that I had information that you had been drinking with these men since your remand, and he said "I will find out where the fellows are if I can and let you know"—I did not induce him to go to you and say that it would be all right if I would only tell him where Barnes was.

Cross-examined by MR. MURPHY. When I arrested Wright he said that he had got three months' credit—I did not find much at his place, and did not expect to, as the brokers had been there—I never saw him at Ledicott's—none of the stuff has been traced to Chapman.

Cross-examined by MR. DILL. The sweets at Hancorn's were in bottles, not in boxes, or I should not have seen that they were sweets—there were not more than three bottles—he brought five loaves in in a sack and put them on the counter—I saw no flour—each time I went there the shutters were up except one or two.

Cross-examined by Hayes. I introduced myself as a detective officer, not as a commercial traveller, as I had a warrant for your arrest—there was a pre-arrangement between me and the milkman that he should come out and see if you were the same Osborne—I read the warrant under a lamp.

Cross-examined by MR. KEMP. I went to Chapman's during business hours; customers were being served; I remained two and a half hours—the storekeeper said that two gentlemen wanted to see him—he said "What is your business?" and I said "l am a police officer"—he pointed to these great files on the floor, and said "Those are my books"—he told me that Simon had married a lady named Harper, his master's wife, and succeeded to her business—he said he was in the habit of buying of persons who came to the door—there is a class of persons who buy salvage stock; it is a well-known trade; I have heard that they sell things slightly damaged or bankrupt's stocks—other persons, in a large way of business, deal in precisely the same way—the cellar is used as a storeroom, and a large quantity of property is kept there—I did not say that I had not time to find the receipts, and we came back next day, but the broken part of the file related to years ago—when I went on the 2nd they would not give me permission to what Mr. Chapman promised, and I waited for him—on the second occasion I had received information that the prisoner's names were on some of the boxes, and I found them in pencil—on three of the perfume boxes I found the word "lot," but not on the essences—I did not take any of the packets marked 3 1/2 d. away—I was looking for Sardou's essences—on the first occasion I found four or five boxes and about six of sauces; some of the soap was marked 1 D—it is a large shop.

Re-examined. The receipt signed Harper was discovered half or three quarters of an hour after my arrival—I had both the receipts in my hand and commented upon them—Chamberlain said that Simon and Harper were the same person—I think I took away the second and third receipts for 2l. and 6l. 10s.

WILLIAM CHAMBERLAIN (Police Inspector L). On 26th September I went with Williamson and Mr. Delaspie to 402, Edgware Road—we saw Chapman—I said "l am a police officer," and showed him my warrant, and said "I have called respecting soaps, essences, &c., you bought of Simon, otherwise Edwards or Harper; I want to see the goods you have bought of Simon or any other person you have bought goods of"—he

said "I have not bought goods of any other man but Simon; I have known him for some years, and have bought hundreds of lots from him"—he then produced a large quantity of soaps and essences, and handed these three receipts to Sergeant Williamson, which I believe he had previously seen—two of them are signed Simon and one Harper—he said "Take them all away and keep my name out of this affair, or it will ruin me; I will send them all in my van"—he directed his storekeeper to gel them together, which he did, and I saw them put into a van—he then said "You must not let my name be mentioned; what are you going to do; shall I brought into it?"—I said "I cannot tell you, it is in the hands of the Public Prosecutor"—he said "I will give you any information I can if you will keep my name out of this; I am about to enlarge my premises, and should the public get hold of it, it will ruin me"—the van and goods were then driven away under my directions, and we arrived at the police-station about three o'clock—the two receipts and invoice were handed to Williamson on the 26th in my presence—the receipts are "26th July, Mr. Chapman, bought of H. B. Simon, 6 dozen essences at 3s. 4d.; 1l. settled; H. B. SIMON;" "August 24th, received of Mr. Chapman, 3l. 5s., less discount, for 12 dozen essences; H. B. SIMON;" "12 dozen perfume soap, 1l. 16s.; 3 dozen one ounce essences, 12s.; pumice stone soap, &c., 4 dozen glycerine tablets, 14s.; 4 dozen perfection tablets; total, 3l. 18s. 3d. "—on 5th October, in the afternoon, I called at 402, Edgware Road, and saw Chapman—I said "I have a warrant for your arrest for receiving essences, soaps, &c., which you have had through Simon, knowing them to have been obtained by fraud"—I read the warrant to him; he wanted to see it—I handed it to him, and he said "Well, I have bought of Simon only what you have taken away"—I said "Go through your receipts, and see what you have bought of a man named Brant"—he said "I have not bought anything of any one but Simon"—Williamson said "Where is the receipt for the currants you bought?"—he said "I have bought no currants; I have bought figs from Brant"—Williamson said "That is the name I believe"—I asked for the receipts of the things he had bought from Brant—he said "I will find them," and went on looking through the file—while doing so I noticed several without names or addresses, and said "Who did you buy these goods from?"—he said "Oh, I buy anything of hawkers who come to my shop with barrows"—I said "Anything they like to bring?"—he said "Yes, and if I am not at home my shopman buys them and gets a receipt like this, and goes to the desk for the money, and gets it from the cashier"—I said "That is a very loose way of doing business"—he said "Do you think so?"—I said "I do; have you got any more goods you have got from Simon?"—he said "No, those you took away were the whole lot I got from him"—I said "How can that be when you told me to-day you had known him for years, and bought hundreds of lots from him during that time"—he said "No"—I said "I have a search warrant with me"—he said "You can see all over my shop, and you have got all I have had consigned to me"—I went over to his ironmonger's shop, which I found packed full of boxes of goods; it was impossible to search; it would have taken two or three days, and I took his word that he had no more—the front shop was ironmongery, the other part was a warehouse—I said "What is there in it?"—he said "I don't know any more than you do"—they were packed so close we could not get in between them—I then

took him in custody—the van was taken away I said "You had better take a list of the goods and give me a copy"—this produced is the copy he gave me on the 26th—a book like an order book was the only book I saw; the young lady had got it at the desk—on 6th October, about four a.m., I went to 48, Weston Street, Bermondsey, and saw Ledicott—I said "I have a warrant for your arrest for conspiring with Whitehouse"—he said "I don't know Whitehouse or any one you have mentioned"—I said "I shall be able to prove that you do know them"—Sergeant Williamson then said "I have Whitehouse with you on several occasions here"—he said "Yes, but only as a customer; all the goods I have got here I have paid for"—I said "No, I don't think you have; I have reason to believe you have obtained a large quantity of goods which are not here"—he said "Well, you must prove it"—his premises were searched, and four boxes of essences were found, which Mr. Cory identified, and some soap with the name of Alexander and Co. on it, a number of bottles of sauce of the Antilles Sauce Company, a large quantity of Hydroleine washing powder—the sauce and the washing powder were identified.

Cross-examined by MR. HUTTON. I was there three or four hours; I did Not search the premises; the things were found below—there were about 200 boxes of bottles of sauce—this is a licensed house.

Cross-examined by MR. PHILLIPS. I went into Gosling's shop; I saw materials for carrying on the milk trade on the counter—it is a private house, with the kitchen made into a chandler's shop, with a cellar.

MR. DELASPIE (Re-examined). The pumice soap is usually retailed at twopence a tablet—we supply a number of printed documents with it for the retailers to wrap it up in like this produced, marked "Sold quarter pound tablet, twopence each"—so much pumice soap as we did supply we sent a quantity of these printed papers with it.

Cross-examined by MR. MOYSES. I never saw Haydon in my life.

HENRY SIMON (The prisoner). My real name is Henry Bagram Simon—I have passed by the names of Harry Harper, Henry Edwards, and Thomas Edwards—I lived as Thomas Edwards at 33, Barchester Street, Poplar; as Harry Harper ar 11, Arthur Road, East Dulwhich; and as Simon at 62, Thirley Street, Peckham, and also at 53, Green Hawkins used to Peckham—I know most of the prisoners—some time ago Hawkins used to serve me, but I have not had to do with him for the last six years—I did not know Wright, Brown, Hayes, or Gosling to do business with them—independently of doing business with them I know them all except Hawkins, Wright, Brown and Hayes—I have heard Stevenson's evidence; he has said that there was a commission paid, but I paid Whitehouse nothing—I can't say as to the other arrangements he spoke about, because I was not always with them when they gave orders—Whitehouse asked me to give him an order, and said "Now, you will be sure and pay for them at the end of the time," and I agreed to pay at the end of three months—the goods were sent to me at my address at Poplar. and I sold them to Chapman, who I have Known for a number of years—I first knew him when I was in business in Edgware Road—he only knew me as Simon and Harper; he may have known me at three shops at one time—I sold Chapman all the goods for which the police found my receipts—I used to put the goods on my shoulder and carry them, 12 dozen perfumes at a time; it is some time ago—I can't give you the exact

quantity—I took as much as I could carry—the lowest was 2s. a dozen; the next half-a-crown, and the highest 3s.—the soap was 6s., 8s., and 10s. a gross, and the essences 3s. 4d. a dozen—I never got more for them—that was 2l. a gross—this receipt of July 26th is my writing; it represents the price at 3s. 4d. a dozen—I received that money on that day; that was the price paid—this other receipt of August 24th is for essences which I sold to Chapman; it is very likely marked at more than 3s. 4d. a dozen—I was paid 3l. 5s. altogether—this other bill is for a gross of essences; a small amount of discount has been taken of—I did not receive 3l. 5s. that day; I only received 2l.—there was no discount on, the 2l.—I made out the bill on one of Chapman's printed billheads—I saw Chapman that day, but I did not sell the essences to him; I left them in the shop—my conversation was with him—that was not my first transaction with him in essences—I proposed to make the receipt out for the full amount, taking off 7s. discount—3l. 12s. would be the gross price—I entered it as 3l. 5s., because I thought it better to put down the actual cost of the goods rather than the amount actually took, the invoice price—I thought it would be well to have the invoice price on the receipt instead of the sum paid me—Chapman was present when I made out this receipt; the whole of the writing is mine—he paid it, at least he gave me an order on the cashier for 2l.—this was neither the first nor the last transaction I had with him for essences—after I took him the first lot and made arrangements it was understood that I was to be paid 3s. 4d. a dozen for essences, and I gave receipts for the amount agreed upon, but sometimes I took off more discount than at others from the invoice price—the receipts were to be made out at the invoice price, subject to discount, quite apart from the sum paid to me—on 26th August this receipt for six dozen of essences, 6s. 3d., is my writing—I was only paid 3s. 4d., and the 7s. allowed was the same as was allowed on the 3l. 12s.—I have given receipts for soap—I can't say that I put in the word "Soap," unless you show me the receipts—I can't say whether this receipt for 6l. 10s. is for soap; I fancy not—my receipts for soap were made exactly under the same arrangement, and the same as to profits—this receipt for 6l. 10s. is in my writing, but I did not receive it—it is on the back of one of Hancorn's cards, which I happened to have in my pocket—I think I got 4l. 10s. of that—when the goods were paid for Chapman brought me an order on the cashier except on the first occasion, which was 1l., which I got from a boy who gave evidence at the police-court—as to the 6l. 10s., Mr. Chapman and I went to the desk, and he said to the cashier "There you are, Miss, pay that"—he took the whole amount and went to the provision counter, gave me about 4l. 10s., and kept the balance—that was because the receipt was made out for the full amount—I took the goods to him because I knew he was a man who could do with that class of goods—I had a similar parcel of goods from Simmonds—after taking goods to Chapman I kept 10 per cent, as my share, and handed the balance to the party to whom it belonged, Simmonds, Winter, Thompson, Hancorn, or Littlewood—I never handed Whitehouse any money—I have sold goods on commission for six, seven, or eight years—I have taken goods to Chapman for some years—I sold him some goods, and then I left off going there, but the making out the receipts in this way commenced in July—as to the word "Lot," Mr. Chapman said something about his men thinking it rather

suspicious that I should bring goods in that way, presuming they had came from sales, and then I put on the word "Lot" and a number, and laughed and said "You see these things have been bought under the hammer"—they had not been bought at any sale—I cannot remember whether he made any remark.

Cross-examined by MR. MOYSES. Some time ago I had three large shops, and did business to the amount of 300l. a week—Haydon knew me then—he has only sold me me one lot in recent years, coming to 17l., from Mr. Barringer, and on that account I paid 10s., and promised to pay 10s. a week if he would give me time, as I had an execution in.

Cross-examined by MR. PHILLIPS. I never had any business transactions with Gosling—he lives in Peckham, and I have lived there—he bought a bedstead of me 12 months ago, that is the only transaction between us—I have reminded him of that since I have been in the dock—I frequented the Shades, but I never saw him there.

Cross-examined by Whitehoute. When I gave you the order I knew your position—I never paid you one penny commission.

Cross-examined by MR. KEMP. I do not call myself a thief—Chapman knew that the goods were not going to be paid for—he did not know it from my general character—I did not tell him they were stolen goods, because I did not think they were, nor was there anything to lead him to suppose so—I have pleaded guilty to obtaining goods by fraud—I do not call it fraud, but not being in a position to obtain legal assistance I plead guilty—I am morally guilty—when I was taken in custody I did not apply to Chapman to assist me in my defence, I only asked him for bail—he did not decline to have anything to do with me; I sent for Mr. Dent for bail—I told Mr. Brighton that Mr. Chapman ought to have found me money or bail, but I did not say "I will swear anything so as to get him put away"—he is here; he did not bet me 2 to 1 that I should get off—I do not think I ever went to more than one sale in my life—I know Mr. Izzard, an auctioneer, I never attended his sales; I know him as a trade valuer—I said to the police that I was in the habit of attending sales to deceive them, and make them think these things had come under the hammer—I did not tell that to Chapman to deceive him, because he knew—he knew me carrying on business as a respectable man as Harper and Simon—I swear that the word "lot" was not on the first lot of boxes Chapman bought, nor did I tell him that I had bought them at sales—he said "Don't bring me any more of those goods, for I am sure they will never be paid for"—he said that from the price he was paying for them—I did not say "What do you mean by aspersing my character"—I was an honest man, not legally guilty, I fell in with anybody's views I was getting money out of—I should fall in with anybody's views who would lighten my punishment, that is only natural.

Cross-examined by MR-DILL. When Hancorn opened his shop 21, Richardson Street, he told me he intended paying for the goods supplied to him by money coming from the executors of his mother's will—I was frequently there; he employed me to fetch bread from the baker's, and while I was there Whitehouse asked him to give orders for goods; I cannot say whether the terms were mentioned—he had a fair business for the size of the shop, and he might have done better if he had more money—I have brought him sweets in boxes from Messrs Pink, but I never saw a bottle of sweets in the shop—I was not regularly in his

service—the name of Alexander and Co. was on certain "boxes, some of which I took to Chapman's; they had been in Hancorn's shop a week or 10 days—I think I was at the Shades with Hancorn once.

Re-examined. I have been to Ledicott's and to the Antelope—Chapman said all through "You keep quiet and I will find you bail," and I dare say the police know the name of the bail—before my statement was made to the prosecution I was told distinctly that no bargain or terms could be made with me, and I must make my statement if they chose to call me.

Cross-examined by MR. HUTTON. I went to Ledicott to get refreshment—the ale was the attraction—I never saw him at the Shades.

Whitehouse, in his defence, stated that he had known Ledicott 20 years in the provision trade, and had taken hundreds of thousands of him, and when he gave him these orders they were on three months' credit, and that Haydon, who he had also known 20 years, gave him similar orders; that lie gave a similar order for soap, and May and he had tendered the money and it had been refused; that he had known Simmonds many years and believed he would pay for the goods he ordered, and that he only took one order from Gosling; that he believed Haickins to be an honest man, or he would not have trusted him; that he could have given Hancorn an order for 16l. instead of 16s. if he wished to swindle his employers, and his commission would have been larger; that Osborne had a fine shop, and he took his order believing he would pay, and the same as to Brown and Wright, and lie contended that he ought not to, be held responsible, and stated that he gave information to Mr. Sardou, upon which he stopped one order, which was a proof that lie was acting honestly; he stated that he had never done business with Chapman, and never saw him till lie was in custody, and that he had reported himself regularly to the police since his liberation, and had always lived in one place, endeavouring to get his living honestly.

May, in his defence, said that he never described himself as a commercial traveler, and had had shops at Croydon, Mitcham, and Northfleet, after which he became agent to Van Hagen, of Rotterdam, and obtained orders from him which he gave to Hancorn, but afterwards revoked them; that lie believed Brown to be respectable as he was an old customer, and that after he had given other orders he could not obtain payment; that he met Whitehouse and told him lie was going into the hopping district, and offered to obtain orders for soap, and took samples there with him; lie complained that the perfumes were unsaleable, being so bad as to be worth less than the bottles, and stated that Stephenson's evidence was not to be trusted; he produced a large file of cheques to show the amount of business he had done.

Gosling received a good character.

Simmonds, in his defence, stated that Whitehouse called on him and he gave him a small order; that on 24th September Stephenson called on him and induced him to take a walk with him, saying that he wanted to call on White-house, which he did; and Whitehouse came out directly. Stephenson then went into a urinal, and Williamson came up and arrested him; he said that he went to the Shades to get orders on commission from Simon, who he met there, and that there was not a traveller in London better known them himself.

Witness for Wright.

GEORGE STEWART GRAJIAM . lam manager to Johnsonand Co., auctioneers,

and was employed in July or August to value the premises 154, Newington Causeway, with a view to a sale—I valued the goodwill and business without the stock at 250l.—Wright put these certificates (produced) into our hands by way of reference, and on the strength of them we went to certain expense in advertising the premises for sale, but before a sale was effected he was arrested—he is married, and has children—he said he was going to take another house and let lodgings, and I know that he took a house in Elm Park, Clapham, at a lower rent for that purpose.

Cross-examined. 250l. was the price we intended taking, but nobody offered it—we had offers of 150l. and 200l.—he left about the end of September, and the property is not in our hands now.

Witness for Hancorn.

CHRISTOPHER BLEINES . I am a baker, of 55, Rodney Road—I supplied Hancorn with bread and flour from May to December—the weekly average was 3l. 8s. 10d.—it was always paid for except the last two or three days, when he was arrested—it was a small shop, and a small stock.

Brown in his defence produced his landlord's receipt for his rent, and stated that he traded in the name of Maltby as it was his wife's name; that he never saw Whitehouse in his life till he called at his shop in Penge, when he gave him an order amounting to about 6l.; that he received Alexander's soap on the 19th, and on the 20th his landlord put in a distress for rent, and seized all the goods, and that he had applied to the auctioneer for an account of what the goods fetched, but could not get it. He contended that he gave the orders in the usual course of business, and not with the intent to defraud.

Hayes in his defence contended that it was impossible for him to have conspired with men whom he had never heard of before. He stated that the money Stephenson had from him he put into his own pocket, and the rest of the goods were returned; that he never saw Whitehouse till July, when he called and pressed him for an order which he gave for 1l. 12s., which was not applied for because it was not due; that some of the accounts had never been applied for; he complained of Mr. Delaspie having indicted every one of Whitehouse's customers; he produced his cheques drawn during the last 15 months to prove that he had been doing a legitimate business.

Witnesses for Chapman.

ARTHUR THORPE . I have been warehouseman to Mr. Chapman nearly two years—he carries on a very large business, and employs from 30 to 36 people—he turns over about 500l. a week—I have charge, in conjunction with William Serjeant, of the whole of the stock—sellers occasionally bring samples which I take in, and I show them to Mr. Chapman, who gives me instructions as to quantity and price—some of them are paid for in cash—I sometimes check the goods and get the money and pay the sellers, and sometimes I take the money to the cashier and tell him to pay them—Mr. Chapman is usually out all day—he goes out about 10 o'clock, and returns about 3, when he goes into his office—the shop floor is not opened to the whole extent, as there is a show-case, but there are no walls dividing it—the office is on a landing up 18 stairs; it is not very small—no stock is kept there; anyone can go there when Mr. Chapman is out—no goods can go into stock without my knowledge—I have known Simon about three months now—I first saw him there towards the end of the summer, when he brought the goods mentioned in these receipts, having brought a sample the day before—I did not take in the sample—he saw Mr. Chapman—the next day he brought the goods—Mr. Chapman

was out—they were not in good condition—some of them are very unsaleable—they were essences—cinnamon does not sell well, and celery does not sell fast—I paid Simons 1l. for the first lot—this is the receipt—one of the assistants put this stamp on—I left some of the goods in the shop for sale, and packed the others in the store case close to Mr. Chapman's office—I did not hide them—I have weighed the contents of one of Mr. Sardou's two-ounce bottles when full, and they only weigh an ounce and three quarters, but some of the bottles have evaporated—Simons afterwards brought some perfumes and soaps, which I purchased—here is a receipt for 6l. 10s. for three gross of perfumes, which he brought on 7th August—I took them in—I sometimes took Simon to the desk, and told the cashier to pay him, and I have seen the cashier do so—the amount has been the same as shown by the receipt, and never less—I once took him to Mr. Chapman for the money, and brought him the amount as shown by the receipt; it was never less—that was done when there was not enough money in the cashier's desk—I also took in three gross of perfumes—I don't remember whether Mr. Chapman was present, but I should not know what to pay for them without his instructions—I stored them away; some were in the shop for sale, and some in the glass case just by the door near the grocery counter—the perfumes were priced 4 1/2 d., and there was a ticket on them—they were never marked 3 1/2 d.—every time Simon or Eyres brought soap, perfumes, or essences I or Eyres checked them—when they were brought the assistants and customers were about; it took place in the shop during business hours—there are four cashiers; I do not always get the money from the same cashier—I began to take these goods on this receipt for 3l. 8s. 3d. from Simon, but I was going out, and Eyres finished—I saw the receipt next morning for the purpose of getting the prices, but I do not know where it is—I took the goods in from Simons which are on this receipt for 2l. of August 23rd—I do not remember whether I paid him or took him to the cashier—here is a receipt on Mr. Chapman's printed paper for 12 dozen essences, 15s. 5d. a dozen, on 24th August—the cost-price of these was 6s. a dozen—I do not know whether there was any discount—this receipt of 26th August is on Harper's printed bill-heading—I took them in—I do not recollect who paid Simon for those—apart from Rose and apart from Simons no other goods of Alexander's or of Sardou's were Drought to the premises—on 27th August I bought perfumery from Simons amounting to 4l. 0s. 8d., and took a receipt for it, which I put on the desk if I got it from Mr. Chapman—I cannot remember whether I paid Simons the 4l. 0s. 8d.—when Mr. Chapman was out, Simon waited for him to come back—the goods were exposed in the shop, and they could be seen, but not on the counter—some of them had lot tickets on them when I took them from Simons; on all the goods there were about four lot numbers on the top—the boxes would be tied together—Simon never told me where the goods came from, or where he had got them—I always examined their condition to see if it corresponded with the sample, before they wore paid for—no goods were taken by the police from Simon or Harper except a few tablets—Mr. Chapman has about 30 horses—he sells about 20 tons of goods per week—the essences were sold at 6 1/2 d. If never at 3 1/2 d. this size, and there is only one size of Sardou's—I always took receipts, except once when I was called away—Mr. Chapman does not keep a

goods bought book; he keeps the receipts for goods on the file, but sometimes they get mislaid—the police visited the shop five different times, and conversations passed at each—when Mr. Williams and Mr. Delaspie first came I was in the shop—they went up to Mr. Chapman's office, and shortly afterwards Mr. Chapman called me and told me in their presence to count all the perfumes, essences, and soaps about from Simon—I counted the goods, and then saw the inspector and Mr. Delaspi looking over the receipt files—I told him how many there were—Mr. Chapman asked me if I was sure I had counted them all, and I said "Yes"—Serjeant, a man in Mr. Chapman's employ, then said that there were four boxes over the road, referring to the ironmongery and china shop—I said that I had counted those—Mr. Chapman said "I told the gentlemen what we had bought," and I said that we had bought figs and prunes from Brant—I do not remember anything about currants—some soap tablets were lying on a biscuit box that had come from Simon—Mr. Chapman in their presence said that if the gentlemen called again I was to give them any information, and Mr. Williamson afterwards called—I said "Mr. Chapman is not in"—he said "Can I see Mrs. Chapman?"—I told her, and she saw him, and told me to show him everything, but I did not do so because the men were having their tea in the room where the glass case was, and I said "I must wait a few minutes till they have done"—I then showed him the perfume and the pumice soap; those were in the store-room—there were essences in that room in a glass case, but I do not remember whether he saw them—the case is about 12 feet long, 8 feet high, and 3 feet deep—there are six glass doors and six panel doors; the property was all inside the glass doors—the case covers the whole of the wall; it stands against the wall, and reaches to the ceiling—you could not say that the essences and perfumes were in a private part of the house—the shop has been built out over what was the garden or forecourt of a private house—you get access to the private house upstairs where the office is, and you go downstairs to the stores—while I was showing him the goods Mr. Chapman came in—on the third occasion Mr. Williamson came with Mr. Delaspie and Mr. Chamberlain—Mr. Chapman was in; he called me up to the office, and told me to show them the soaps, perfumes, and essences; I took them into the store-room and did so, and they could see other goods—I took some other goods out of the glass case, and they looked at them—there were some parcels; there were names on them, and the lot numbers on one or two—Mr. Chapman said he knew nothing about the names that were written in blacklead pencil—they then went with me downstairs to what we called the soap cellar, which goes under the whole shop—Serjeant, the head warehouseman, then came, and I showed thorn the Universal tablet soap bought from Simons, and Serjeant said "There are four boxes over the road, go and fetch them"—I went over and brought them—there were only four—they were afterwards taken up to Mr. Chapman's office—Williamson asked Mr. Chapman if he had bought goods from other persons; he paid "Yes"—the names of the persons attending sales who I bought of were Brant, Clarke, Burnand, and Haywood—Brant called about once a week with a pony cart, and sometimes with a horse and cart—I have never seen any of the prisoners except Simon—Mr. Chapman said to me "Tell them of anything we have bought of men as goes to sales," and I told the officers

what we had bought of Brant, of Clarke, and Burnand, jars and bottles of nutmegs—on the fourth occasion Inspector Chamberlain and Williamson came and saw Mr. Chapman in the office, who called me and told me to get the goods into the office—he did not say why—I counted them, and a careful list was taken of them—Mr. Chamberlain said "We must have the soap that is downstairs"—Mr. Chapman said "You need not bring the soap up"—he told Serjeant to get a horse and cart, and the goods were removed—Miss Salmon took a copy of what the police removed—the tickets were not removed before the perfumes were taken—I have one here (produced)—when they were taken out of the case I saw Walters remove one ticket—the pumice soap was sold at 1 1/2 d. a tablet, none at 1d.—these tickets were placed on the bottles in the case in the shop near the door, not in the large glass case—the police took away seven or eight files of receipts, and retained them several days—I do not remember seeing them come back.

Cross-examined. The essences were exposed for sale in the shop, but not with the prices; the price was marked on the box in lead pencil, that the assistant might know, but the buyer would not—some pumice soap was exposed for sale in the shop, and some universal soap at 1 1/2 d. a tablet—some of Mr. Alexander's perfumes were in the glass case near the door—I pledge these were the tickets on the perfume—they were not written on cardboard, nor had they 3 1/2 d. on them—the bulk of the soap was left in the cellar, and the bulk of the essences and perfumes in a room upstairs—there is no door between the office and the living part of the house, but you go through a door in the office to get to the room where the bulk of the things were kept—it is not kept open—I don't remember whether it was shut when I was called upstairs—Simon first came on 25th July—he was shown in to Mr. Chapman and saw him—he did not return the same day—he brought six dozen essences on the first occasion in a parcel in boxes with wadding, he had no sack on that occasion—I pledge my oath to that—I did not know Messrs. Sardou's prices at that time, not till I saw the price-list about a for-night ago; I did not know it on 26th July—when I paid over the money Simon made out the receipt and I paid him the 3s. 4d. a dozen; that was what Mr. Chapman told me to pay—I remember Simon bringing 12 dozen essences on 24th August; they are carried out at 3l. 5s.—I cannot say that I handed him the money, but I was there; he delivered the things to me—I will not pledge my oath that they were not brought in a sack—I have bought goods from people who bring them themselves—it did not strike me that I was paying on 24th August 5s. 5d. a dozen for the same things which I had purchased on 2nd August for 3s. 4d.—I am 18 years old—I am not the principal storekeeper, Sarjeant is the principal, and I am second warehouseman—Mr. Chapman instructs me to check all goods—on 22nd August Simon came and brought six dozen of Mr. Sardou's essences—they are carried out at 6s. 3d. a dozen, but I did not notice that at the time, and it did not strike me as peculiar; my attention was not directed to the figures—nearly a cartload of goods were put into the van—it was a small pony cart—Simon had brought them all to the shop in about seven visits, during two months—I saw him with the pony at the door once, but whatever he brought he always brought it in his hand—I only remember his bringing goods in a sack once; I think that was when he brought the essences in a box—he

had come twice with soap—he brought about 30 seven-pound boxes in all, like this (produced)—I saw a receipt for soap, but I cannot produce it—the 36 dozen of perfumes on 7th August were brought in boxes packed in wadding—my master instructed me to pay—I will not pledge my oath that Mr. Chapman did not go to the cashier's desk with Simon that afternoon—I did not notice that this receipt for 6l. 10s. was written on the back of one of Hancorn's cards; I first noticed the card when it was shown me at the police-court—on 23rd August 10 dozen perfumes appear by the receipt to be sold to my master for 2l.—I have been at Chapman's two years—I noticed the prices of things—I had not forgotten the receipt for 6l. 10s., dated August 7th, but it did not strike me as peculiar that he had paid 6l. 10s. on 7th August for 36 dozen—I cannot swear that I handed Simon the money with my own hands, but I took the receipt, and I think laid it on the desk—it did not strike me as peculiar that the transaction of 24th August was in the name of Simon, and that of the 26th in the name of Harper—one and the same man brought the goods—Mr. Chapman keeps account books, but no stock book; he keeps a goods want book, not a bought book, or a sold book; he keeps a ledger—it is sometimes on a desk and sometimes in the shop—he keeps a cash book—these can all be produced; they are in constant use—I was present at the interview between Mr. Chapman and the police on September 21st—I did not hear him deny to them that he kept any books—I do not remember his pointing to the files and saying "There are my books; I have no others"—I first saw Sardou's price-list when I was at the police-court, about a fortnight ago—Brant generally called once a week or once a fortnight—he attends sales—he used to bring figs in bottles, and jam—I never saw Simon at the shop till July 23rd—I have said "I have bought six lots of you; I paid you 1l.; the 6l. 10s. I paid you too; I am not sure of that; the 3l. 18s. 3d. I did not pay you; I did not pay you for all the goods you brought"—that is a fact—I cannot swear whether I handed him the money or took him to the cashier—this memorandum (produced) is not mine; I will not swear that it is not Mr. Chapman's writing—I don't know whose writing the note on the back of it is; it is rather unlike his usual hand—it is not disguised—I do not know that it is his writing on both sides—I cannot swear whether I handed Simon—the money for the goods brought on 22nd August, but I bought them—I have said "I counted these goods; I won't swear that I bought them"—sometimes when Simon could not get enough money he would see Mr. Chapman, who would give him more—I said before the Magistrate that I did not buy the goods because Simon would see Mr. Chapman; sometimes that happened once or twice—he would then go into the office, and the cashier would be there—I used to sit in the office at that time till about a month ago, when the new office was opened—I do not know whether there was a cashier there on 23rd September when the officers came, but there was on some of the occasions—it was a woman; she would hear the whole conversation between Chapman and Simon—her name is Miss Salmon.

Re-examined. I cannot remember whether she was there on any occasions when Simon was there; that was her place; I mean to convey that she was actually there, and that I remember it—when Simon was in the office with Chapman there would be nothing to call my particular attention to her presence—I said at the police-court "I counted these goods, I

won't swear I bought them"—the condition of the goods bought for 5s. 5d. a dozen in August and 3s. 4d. a dozen in July differed, and the quantity differed, and the essences were of different sorts, and sometimes I bought kinds more saleable than others, and there was a difference in the quantity in the bottles—the receipts speak for themselves—there were receipts for the soap, though they are not produced, they occasionally get lost—I should say that the boxes all held the same quantity—this memorandom includes pumice, universal, glycerine, toilet, and perfection tablet soaps—these are the 30 boxes I speak of—that includes all the soap, except one lot of pumice—it includes three dozen of pumice soap—these dozens are tablets, not dozens of boxes—some of the books are here, and others can be brought—I received 12s. a week and my board.

WILLIAM SERJEANT. I have been head warehouseman to Chapman four years—the pumice soap was sold 1 1/2 d. a tablet, never at 1d., and the perfumes at 4 1/2 d. a bottle, never at 3 1/2 d.; the perfumes were labelled in a show case against the door of 402, Edgware Road—these are the tickets; they are in Mr. Bevis's writing, who is going to Canada—when the police came I was instructed to go into the shop and remove them from the case—Mr. Walters can swear that I sold the essences at 4 1/2 d., we never sold or marked them at 3 1/2 d.—I remember Sergeant Williamson coming, and alter I had had my tea he came into the essence room with Thorpe and looked at the essences—they did not go into the cellar on that visit, but they did the next time, and I followed them—Mr. Thorpe said "Is that all soap?"—I said "No, there are four boxes over the road, go and fetch them," which he did—Sergeant Williamson said "Have you any more soap?"—I said "Yes, we have plenty of much better quality; here is a piece, what do you say to that?"—he said "We don't want that, where are the currants and the sauces you have bought at the door?"—I said "We have bought no sauces or ham or candles; go and see if you can find them?"—the police made five visits—no goods could come in or go out without my knowing it; they might be in stock two or three days without my finding them, but they would come to my notice eventually—I defy Mr. Chapman to know by heart what was in stock at 402—warehousemen bring jams and other goods—they would get the money from the cashier's desk, and if she has not enough he had to go to Mr. Chapman—I remember seeing Mr. Chapman at Tom Wilk's sale at Kilburn—I went to check the goods, and brought them away—he bought some essences there, I cannot say whose—the small were 1s. a dozen and the large 1s. 6d.—I know Brand and Co., Limited; they supply beef to Australia; we had a large quantity of goods from them at a reduced price two or three years ago—I can bring one of the bottles to-morrow—I swear that no goods have been brought by Simon for the last four years except those claimed by the police, and none have been removed—I think Mr. Chapman sold 1 lbs. bars of almond soap at 1 1/2 d., and I think Crossfield sold some at 1 1/2 d.

Cross-examined. All the goods brought by Simon have not been given to the police; some were sold in the course of business—Mr. Chapman told the warehouseman to buy certain goods in his absence, and pickle jars and empty bottles and waste grapes, but nothing without orders—I have only bought soap from Simon, and from him only in the last two or three months—a statement was forced out of me; this is it—it is in Inspector Chamberlain's writing, and it has my signature—I say there

that Simon generally came between 6 and 7 at night, but it is some time ago—he has been in the morning, and in the afternoon—he sometimes brought the goods in a sack, but I can't say always—I don't think I told Chamberlain that every time I saw Simon he brought the goods in a sack, but he may have a shopman who would buy in his master's absence anything brought in a barrow, and if the cashier had not the money the man would wait till Mr. Chapman returned, and then Forth would hand him the money—I never saw Chapman go to the desk with Simon—I swear this is the piece of paper which was on the perfumes—I saw Mr. Bevis write this 4 1/2 d., and saw it put on and taken off—there was no ticket on the essences, but 6 1/2 d. may have been marked on the box—my wages were 14s. a week, and board and lodging—Mr. Chapman has not failed in business since I have been there—I believe it was just before I came; I don't know for what amount he failed—he was not bankrupt.

Re-examined. Mr. Chapman sent me to Hatton Garden, and when I returned he said that a police officer had been from Lambeth Police-court—I went there, but they would not let me into the court—I went to the station, and said to Inspector Chamberlain "I am sorry I was in the City, and could not get here before"—he showed me into the billiard room, and said "You know all this case, and you are to tell me"—I said "I must see Chapman"—he said "You can't see him; how long have you known Simon?"—I said "I don't know"—he said "Yes, you do"—I meant I did not know Simon by name—this pocket-book was handed to me in the same condition as it is now—some one then came in; I don't know who he was—I never knew Simon's name till Chamberlain asked me how long I had known Simon—I said "I don't know him"—he said "Oh yes, you do; you know the man who brought the goods to your place"—the first receipt is July, 1887, and the last 24th August, 1887—it would be daylight there up to 7 o'clock; we don't shut till 9—I have known goods to be brought to Edgware Road in a sack—I can't say I ever saw Simon come with a barrow—I never saw prices marked on the essences, and if they were they would not be marked 3 1/2 d.—we usually mark them on the box, and they were never sold under 4 1/2 d.

HARRY WALTERS . I have been four years in Chapman's employ, and am first counterman—he keeps 12 or 13 horses—his profits are small, and returns quick—he turns over 300l. a week—I am 27 years old—my father was a grocer, and I have had experience with him—I superintended the marking at Chapman's, or did it—the only price we have sold Sardou's essences at is 6 1/2 d.; there were no marks on the bottles, but there may have been on the box; they were never sold at 3 1/2 d.—the perfumes were marked with these tickets. (Produced.) They are Mr. Bevis's, the clerk's writing—when the goods were removed by the detective the tickets were removed, and I put them in a box; I either took them out myself, or they were handed to me—those perfumes were never marked or sold for less than 6d.—I remember seeing the essences which Simon brought in July; they had a rough appearance—I thought they had come from a sale, because a box or tins had some bottles short, and the soap and other things had a damaged appearance; there had been evaporation from the bottles, and some were worse than others—I never saw any of the other defendants till this case arose—I know what menthol is; I have seen a man bring it from a chemist in Wood Street—One lot was brought in a sack, but I should not like to swear it—Chapman

has bought of Brent, Furber, and Clark, anything going cheap at a sale—the store case in the essence room was 12 feet long, 8 feet high, and 3 feet deep, and a list of articles numbering a hundred is painted on the glass—Chapman was usually out in the daytime—candles, matches, soap, and a number of other things were sold at the ironmonger's shop—it used to be an oil shop; it is a mixed business—Mr. Morrish was the manager.

Cross-examined. It was not difficult to see into the ironmonger's shop; it was not crowded—there are two shops, 400 and 402, on one side, and 347 and 349 on the other—I am employed at 402—the essences were kept in the large case; you have to go through the office to get to it, but not through the living rooms—the door is usually open; there is so much traffic there—you then come to the essence room—the essences are about 5s. a dozen to buy from a respectable tradesman, but I believe we have bought them for 3s. 9d. in a legitimate way—when the police came Mr. Chapman called Arthur Fair to bring the perfumes up—the soap was not marked, but 1 1/2 d. might have been put on the box—the only things marked with the price were the perfumes; the other could not well be marked without my knowing it—when the police came the tickets on the boxes were bound to be taken away—they have been under my control ever since—I put them in the drawer—on the third visit the police were in the house at the time.

Re-examined. The police did not take the goods away till the fifth visit, but they were removed from the case on the third visit, and the police could not help seeing 4 1/2 marked on them.

HARRY MORRISH . I am in Mr. Chapman's employ at the ironmongery shop; it is also a glass and china shop—I am the manager; I have been there since July, 1886—we sell in that department glass and earthenware and china, and matches and soap, and prepared paint in tins, but no oil—that has been the state of things ever since I have been there—I received the pumice soap in June or July last, and sold it at 1 1/2 d. a tablet, never at 1d.; it was never marked 1d.—later on four more boxes of pumice soap were sent over, and were exposed for sale—I sold the round transparent soap at 1 1/2 d. a tablet, and the standard soap at 4d.—I have never seen any of the prisoners at the ironmongery shop, and have never seen them before this—the transparent soap was very soft and had not a ready sale—I remember Thorpe coming over for some soap a short time before Mr. Chapman was arrested, and he took away four boxes, two of standard and two of round glycerine—the glycerine is stamped with "Standard" across the top—there was never any perfection or universal soap in that shop; I am positive of that—I am in the habit of buying manufactured goods from hawkers who come to the door, such as steps and cinder sitters that they make themselves—all those transactions are for ready money, and the practice is to make out a memorandum and give it to the man, and he takes it across to the grocer's and gets the money—these (produced) are some of the memorandums; I make them on the first piece of paper I come across—I have had several dozens of such transactions since I have been there—I am familiar with the glass case in the grocer's shop, but I am not able to say at what price the perfumes were sold, with the exception of what I sold myself—I sold Atkinson's at 4 1/2 d., and I engraved 4 1/2 d. on two boxes, one of which I had exposed in my case, and one Mr. Walters, the manager of the grocery department, had—they afterwards

came over for it and took it away, and I have not seen it since—I am prepared to say I did not sell at any other price but 4 1/2 d.—I do not keep books at the ironmongery shop; I keep my bills and receipts—what credit I have in my department is entered in the books of the grocery department—I have not got my bills and receipts here, but I can bring them.

Cross-examined. Perfumes and scented soaps are sold on the ironmongery side, and are exposed for sale there—all the soap I had was some glycerine and some standard soap—I am not accustomed to people coming to sell things with sacks; such a thing has never happened—this ironmonger's shop is very full, but it is not at all difficult to see into it or move about in there; the things are not closely packed together—the officers did not come into my shop, but I saw them at my master's shop—I deny that 14 or 15 boxes of universal soap were brought over from my shop on the first day the officers came.

CHARLES AYRES . I am warehouseman to Mr. Chapman, at 402, Edgware Road—I remember Simon calling with some soap some time before this prosecution was commenced—this lot of 3l. 18s. 3d.; is the lot I finished checking—Arthur Thorpe was called away, and he called me up to finish taking these goods in, and I then paid Simon the 3l. 18s. 3d.; I swear that I paid him every penny of it; he gave me a receipt, and I took it up to the office and handed it to Mr. Chapman—I did not take much notice of it, but I am positive it was for 3l. 18s. 3d.—I went to the desk, but they had not got money enough there, and I then went to Mr. Chapman and got it—I have not seen that receipt since—the goods which I took in stood in front of the grocery counter till the next morning, and then they were packed away, and, as occasion required, the shop was replenished from the store.

Cross-examined. Mr. Chapman was not in when Simons called, he waited till he came in; I cannot say how long he stayed—I never saw Simon come with the goods, but he was there when I was called up from the cellar about 4'clock, and Mr. Chapman came in between 4 and 5 o'clock, that is his usual time—Simon waited in the shop where the goods were; he did not go up to the office, to my knowledge, to see Mr. Chapman, nor do I remember Mr. Chapman coming down to see him, I could not say he did not—Mr. Chapman did not go to the desk with Simon and ordered them to pay the money; I went upstairs for it, I did not count it, I handed what money had been given to me over to Simon—this was about a fortnight or three weeks before Mr. Chapman's arrest—I did not see Simon write the receipt, I suppose it was already written—I paid him the money and he took the receipt out of his pocket and said "Here is the receipt," and I took it up and handed it to Mr. Chapman, and that is the last I saw of it.,

Re-examined. I saw the amount of the receipt was 3l. 18s. 3d., that I can swear to, that is all I looked at—Mr. Chapman arrived just as I came up from the cellar—it took about a quarter of an hour or 20 minutes to finish checking the goods, and then I went to the desk for the money, and there not being sufficient I went to Mr. Chapman—Simon at that time was in the shop—I could not say how much I handed to Simon, but I asked Mr. Chapman for 3l. 18s. 3d., and I know he gave me 3l. in gold, I can swear to that—I do not know what became of Simon after that, I went into the cellar then.

FREDERICK WILLIAM IZOD . I am an auctioneer, in partnership at 147, Cannon Street—I act in grocers' sales for the Official Receiver of the Bankruptcy Court—I have acted as grocers' agent eight or nine years, and have had experience with their books—I do not usually find a proper bought book—the receipts are kept on a file, and in making up the account I have had the use of the files—I sometimes sell salvage stock—I have known Chapman about five years, and have known him buy lots at my sales—the last time was about three years ago—he has generally been at our sales, but I only speak to one sale where he actually purchased—dealers make their money by purchasing at the sales, and taking them round and selling them retail—I know Furber; he used to attend sales frequently, but lately only once or twice—I know Brant; he attended sales frequently, and so did Haywood and Jesse Clark for many years, but not of late—I once saw a man outside one of my sales at a general store, who, I believe, was Brant, delivering goods to Chapman—those men only buy when the goods go cheap—I have seen them go away with sacks and barrows, and with pony-carts—if the goods are not cleared we move them to some other auction, or sell them to some of the buyers at the same sale, and generally at considerably less price, and those goods could find their way into the market at all sorts of prices—we do not give invoices; we give a delivery order which the buyer leaves when he takes the goods—I have never heard of Sardou's essences before this case—these bottles would be very unsaleable; this is not full; it is what we term an ullage bottle; some has come out by evaporation or leakage—we might get half-a-crown a dozen for them at a sale, but it is more likely we should not get a bid—I never saw essences put up like these, and I have seen the principal makers—I have heard of Alexander's goods, but have not sold them to my knowledge—their name would not be mentioned in the catalogue—these perfumes, the sixpenny size, would fetch about half-a-crown a dozen by auction—the celebrated Johan Farinas would be sold at half-a-crown a dozen at an auction—this transparent soap is damaged; it is rather old, and has shrunk very much—I have been told that the quality affects the shrinking—they would fetch about 2s. a dozen undamaged, but we sold some at an auction at 9d. a dozen, similar soap but different boxes, and damaged about the same—this universal soap is old and shrunk, and very damaged and faulty; it would fetch about 1 1/2 d. per pound at a sale; there should be four of these to the pound—the quality is very bad—men who attend sales retail them to shops, such as Mr. Chapman's—I have Been goods removed in sacks.

Cross-examined. I have no special knowledge of the manufacture of soap—I do not know how long this soap has been at the police-station—I have not taken that into consideration—I have not an official appointment—prices vary very much; we sell without reserve—I would not pretend that the prices we realise are fair prices—the last sale of mine Chapman attended as a buyer was at Christmas, 1883—5s. would be a fair price for these essences in the trade, and the perfumes 3s. 6d. a dozen, or even less—if Mr. Delaspie says he sells them at 4s. 6d. a dozen wholesale, I never heard of that price, and I should be surprised to find people give 6s. a dozen for the essences.

Re-examined. The public do not always come our sales, they buy at shops—I saw the boxes a few weeks ago at the police-court—they

had been opened I think—I do not think three weeks would make an appreciable difference in the soap, it was quite dry—Chapman sells at different prices than what Rimmell would sell at; it is a cheap thoroughfare; the same people who give 6s. a dozen for essences could buy them at our sales for 3s.—some men who attend sales keep shops and some have not—we always sell "without reserve," it is not limited to bankrupts' stock.

CHARLES WILLIAM STANTIN . I am a wholesale sugar and dried fruit merchant, of 150, Fenchurch Street—Chapman has been a large buyer from me for some years—in 1885 he laid out 2,700l. with me, and in 1886, 1,672l., and in 1887, 1,089l.—he does not owe me anything—I continue to serve him notwithstanding these proceedings—he always paid cash, and I gave discount—he is an honourable man.

Cross-examined. I keep books—I do not buy from men who come to the door with sacks and barrows—I believe Chapman failed three or four years; I do not know for what amount.

WALTER HERBERT WOOLF . I am one of the firm of Yateman and Company, manufacturers of flavouring essences, in Denmark Street—we have supplied Chapman for about two years with essences and cornflour and baking powder—the price of the essences as far as I recollect was 2s. 2d.—he is a very keen buyer—these bottles of Sardou's are of an unusual shape, and entirely out of keeping—I never heard of Sardou's before this business—this is one of our 1 oz. bottles, liquid measurement—our 2 oz. bottle are 8s., by the list price for the very best—Sardou's is not clear, and from being put in a bottle like this leads me to think it is an indifferent article, and that it would not be saleable—we only sell to the West End trade; no small shops—Chapman also bought cornflour, baking powder, yeast powder, and a job lot of jellies—they had faded a good deal in colour, and we wanted to sell them to a man to whom the colour made no difference—he would push them and dispose of a large quantity, I thought, so I took them to him—there is nothing the matter with the quality of these jellies, but they have faded in gas light, and we could not send them to our customers.

Cross-examined. Langdales are the only men who put essences into these bottles; theirs is a much older concern than Sardou's—the bottles at 2s. 2d. are 1/2 oz.—the 2 oz. bottles are 8s. a dozen, wholesale, and less for larger quantities.

Re-examined. Chapman has only laid out about 35l. with us this year—his business is till going on—I have spoken to several witnesses; they all appear to serve him still—last year he laid out about 60l. with us—he has always paid for what he has had.

JAMES BROWN . I am a managing clerk in the meat market, and have supplied Chapman with meat for two years or more—he was quite a casual customer—he might come and spend 5l. 6l., or 10l. one morning and then we might not serve him again for a fortnight—he has laid out perhaps 30l. a week since these proceedings have been pending, and before that sometimes 2l. or 3l. a week, and sometimes 10l. or 15l.—he has not recently opened a meat department, but he has extended it—he buys of other tradesmen in the market.

GEORGE AUGUSTUS ANDERSON . I am clerk to Peter Kavill, a provision merchant—Chapman has dealt with them for four years—the average

amount has been 1,888l. per annum—he has six or seven shops—he failed in 1883, and paid 8s. 6d. in the pound, which was accepted.

GEORGE REYNOLDS . I am a corn-dealer, and have served Chapman for seven years, to the amount of 700l. a year, and this year nearly 800l.—I supplied him with flour—I gave him credit—I found him particularly correct—he has several times come to me and said "Here is something omitted"—he has borrowed cash of me, and I have always found him honest, and you could always take his word.

FREDERICK ALFRED HUNT . I am in business with my father at the Bow Soap Works—we have done business with Chapman for 10 or 12 years—his payments were sometimes over 100l. a year—there have been a few cash transactions, but it was principally credit—I have always found him honest—we are now selling brown Windsor soap at 25s. a hundredweight—the soap produced is not good by any means—I do not know that I could sell it—it is supposed to be transparent, but it is quite opaque—it has shrunk, but not very much.

Cross-examined. I could sell it by giving it away at a low price—Alexander and Co. are very little known as perfumers—two years ago we could not trust them, but we got our cash afterwards.

HUGH MACPHERSON . I am agent for Crossfield and Sons, soap manufacturers, of Warrington—Chapman has dealt with them for five years, to the extent of five tons a time on many occasions—he paid us 300l. a year for one sort of soap, common yellow—we have continued to serve him since these proceedings—we have supplied him with almondscented soap at 13s. a cwt.—there is no brown Windsor here—this universal is very common soap—I should say 25s. a cwt. is the value of it—the very best toilet soap is 42s. a cwt.—I represent other firms who do business with Chapman—he lays out with us about 500l. a year; not for soap alone, but in other goods, candles and grocery—I have bought Alexander's transparent soap in St. Paul's Churchyard at 1d. a cake—it is rubbish—soap like this should lather very freely, but it does not—the reason I spoke so strongly was, we found Alexander and Co. were using the word "perfection" soap, and we sent to the trade agents to prevent that.

ROBERT MILBURN . I am manager to Messrs. Carr and Co., biscuit manufacturers, of Carlisle—Chapman has dealt with them to the amount of 50l. per annum—he has had both credit and cash—it is usually cash.

ALICE SALMON (Not examined in chief).

Cross-examined by MR. MATHEWS. I am 16 years old, and was book-keeper to Mr. Chapman 16 months—I was in the office upstairs, but have been at the desk in the shop six weeks—I was under 15 when I commenced—I was there from morning to night, except from 5 to 7 o'clock—Mr. Chapman usually came back at 5 o'clock; I went before that; I came back about 7 o'clock.

RICHARD BRIGHTON . I am a builder, of the Edgware Road—I have done work for Chapman for 12 years, doing any alterations lie has made, except one, and he has paid me about 6,000l.—Simon came to me last Monday week during the adjournment outside this Court—this inquiry had not then commenced—he said ". What do you think of it now?"—I said "It is all right, so far as I know"—he said "Chapman is and fool not to find money for my defence: you know I am going in the witness box"—I said "That will not make any difference; if you have anything

to say you would have said it before this; I will bet you two to one he gets off"—he said "Well, I would bet any money, if I had it, that he does not, for I will swear to anything to pull him in"—he left me and went across the road to some friends—I saw him again on the Tuesday, and asked him to have a walk with me, which he did, and said "I have been advised to go into the witness box"—I said "Do as you like"—I saw him again on Thursday morning before the Court opened—that was the first day of this inquiry—I asked him if he would take a glass before he went in, he said "Yes, let us go up to the corner"—I said "All right," and we went to the corner, and went into a public-house—he looked outside the door, as if looking for something, and came back and finished his drink, and when he came out with me again he looked up Newgate Street and said "I want to see Stevenson, to see if he has got any tip for me from the police.

Cross-examined. I am a friend of Chapman's; I have taken a great deal of money from him—I believed when Simon said he would swear anything to pull Chapman into it that he would do so, but my asking him to drink was no detriment to me—I remember an application for bail being made for Simon at the police-court—Mr. Chapman sent me to Mr. Death, with the view of his being bail for Simon—Mr. Chapman handed a bill of sale over to Death—Mr. Death went and tendered himself as bail, but was refused by the police, on the ground that Mr. Chapman had a bill of sale on his furniture—I thought it was best if Simon's people pressed on Mr. Chapman to have nothing to do with him—on Friday last George May, a friend of mine, came here as bail for Simon, and another person came with him who is in court, and said that he would not mind being bail, and on Wednesday Mr. Houseman, a surveyor, offered to be his bail.

Re-examined. I know that Chapman has known Simon for years—the gentleman who came here as bail was subpoenaed to prove a plan; that was how he came to be here; I saw the subpoena and the plan.

JESSE CLARK . I have been a grocer about 30 years—I have known Chapman 10 years—I have attended sales, and have had many transactions with Chapman, selling him goods bought at sales—I refer to sales at the Great Western, South-Western, London, Chatham, and Dover Railways, and at Izard and Dawe's—they were all sorts of grocery goods, anything cheap—I bought grocery goods at sales from railway-stations—they are what we call lost property—there are sales every year—I also buy at the Great Western weekly or fortnightly—I also bought 3,000 tons of salvage at Messrs. Whiteley's—Mr. Chapman offered to take them, but he did not have them all—the police, bought a good many—I live opposite the police-station—I constantly offered Chapman goods; he was ready to buy goods at any time—I have sold him soap at 14s. a hundredweight—goods I buy at sales are offered in all sorts—I know Hayward and Briant as attending such sales—I know Simon; I saw him at sales years ago, I could not say on more than one occasion—I think I first met him at a sale at Kilburn—I have seen Simon at Chapman's, and business being conducted before anybody who might come in—on one occasion I saw the goods that were being purchased; it was some time in the summer, I think August—the goods had lot tickets on them, I saw—I have seen Chapman at such sales as I have been speaking of in former years—he told me to buy for him if he had to go

away or anything—I have attended sales frequently—I have not ever heard of Sardou's essences—I have only recently heard of Alexander's soap—Langdale and Lorimor's are well-known goods, I had heard of those—I have seen essences sold at sales; I have seen Langdale and Lorimor's sold at sales—mostly at sales essences fetch 2s. 6d., or you might not get a bid for them—I have bought soap at sales—this universal soap, in my opinion, would fetch about 14s. a hundredweight—it is difficult to recommend it—I always look for the maker's name on soaps, Anderson, and Catley, and Cleaver—these common soaps skin your face—I have seen soap better than this sold at sales, and soap even worse; I have seen some not soap at all—this sells for little more than the other, but not much—goods find their way to sales by auction—I have bought hundreds of lots at Kilburn and sold them to Chapman, grocery and fancy goods—I knew Simon at Mrs. Harper's, and he was called Harper—such goods are taken to grocers' in sacks or barrows—I have delivered grocery in that way, including such things as I see before me.

Cross-examined. It is 12 years since I paw Simon at a sale—it was in the afternoon that I saw him at Chapman's shop, between 3 and 4 o'clock; Chapman was there—Simon brought a bag, but all I saw was some boxes; I don't know what was in them—I was going out when he came in—they were having a deal, and I did not interfere—I have attended sales, but it is no good now, because goods get better prices than we can get elsewhere.

MRS. HOBBS. I am the wife of William Hobbs of Canterbury Terrace, Paddington—I have been a customer of Chapman's for three or four years—I produce an invoice for a bottle of Sardou's essence, which I bought there for 6 1/2 d. on 30th July, 1887—this was given to me at the time, and this is the bottle I bought—I have on other occasions, bought essences there—I have an invoice for a bottle of essence bought on 19th August for 6 1/2 d., and on 27th August a bottle of lemon essence, of which this is the invoice—I have never bought Sardou's essences at lees than 6 1/2 d.

Cross-examined. I bought at the counter—I go there every Friday night—I have a large family.

MRS. NICHOLS. I live at 66, St. Mary's Terrace, Paddington—I have purchased Sardou's essences at Mr. Chapman's in bottles like these—I paid 6 1/2 d.; never less—I bought this bottle (produced) in August—a small ticket was given me, which I passed to the cashier, and paid for it.

Cross-examined. I went and bought at the counter—the things were taken out of a glass case—I kept the ticket—I don't think I bought any other article on that occasion—I did not see the price marked in the glass case.

HORACE HOWARD . I am a grocer, of 45, Prince's Road, Notting Hill—I have been a grocer over 30 years—I have attended auction sales, but not for the last two years—I have attended Izard and Dawe's sales, and purchased grocery principally, and essences and fancy soap—I have known Chapman about 10 years, and have sold him goods many times which I have so purchased—it is not usual to show receipts, we get no receipts at sales—I never heard of Sardou's essences before this case—I have never seen goods delivered otherwise than with a van; if a person has not got one he hires one, or gets someone else's.

Cross-examined. I have had transactions with Chapman recently—there is a running account between us—I was in his debt about 100l.—I always found him a very careful buyer.

JOHN THOMAS WILLIAMS . I am a grocer, of 11, King Street, Baker Street—I have known Chapman eight or nine years, and have attended sales where groceries are sold and such goods as these for 10 or 12 years—I have seen Chapman purchasing at such sales, and am under the impression that I have seen Simon there—I should hardly like to buy Sardou's essences because they are not known—the names are on our bottles, and the things are on view before hand—I should not think these would fetch more than 1s. 6d. or 1s. 9d. a bottle—these perfumes are called sixpenny bottles—I should give about half-a-crown a dozen for them—this transparent soap is of very poor quality; it has shrunk very much and got out of condition—I have bought it as low as 1s. 9d. a dozen—the universal soap is very ordinary—I should not give more than 15s. or 16s. a cwt. for it—I have seen small quantities delivered in bags, baskets, hand-barrows, and so forth—I can most emphatically speak to Chapman's integrity and reputation; lie is a straightforward, genuine man.

Cross-examined. He does not under sell to my knowledge—I go there about once a month; I do not take goods in a barrow or sack—the last transaction I had with him was a quantity of mustard bought by me to sell—I will not pledge my oath that I have seen Simon at a sale—I have no personal knowledge of the cost of manufacture of perfumes nor the essences, but I have of soap—the retail price of tablets of good soap is about 2d., but not such as these—Mr. Chapman sold it, but if I sold it I could not get less than 1 1/2 d. for it—I am not aware that he put 2d. a tablet on it—I saw the essences exposed in his shop the last time I was there.

CHARLES HALL HARRISSON . I have been in the grocery and oil business some years—I retired in 1874—I contracted largely for warehouses—I attended grocery sales regularly for six or seven years—I saw Simon at Izard's grocery and oil sales from 1868 to 1874 on several occasions, and saw him buy goods—I went promiscuously into the police-court, and saw Simon there—I did not know what he was charged with—I said to a person there "I have seen that man before;" he said "He is my brother; we want to get bail for him; can you help?"—I said "I have not seen him for some years; I should not like," but I volunteered to give evidence—I was a perfect stranger to the solicitor—I have known Is. articles sold at 3s. 6d. but there is no rule—this universal soap is rather inferior; it is a different colour on each side, and it would not go like that—if it was a well made article it would improve by keeping, but a bad soap deteriorates by keeping—the transparent soap is very bad indeed—it would not shrink like this—there is too much liquid in it—Rimmell's 1s. articles are invoiced at 8s. 6d. or 9s. a dozen, and at the sales they would fetch about 6s., and sometimes lees, but the trade would not allow them to escape; names have a good deal to do with it apart from quality—I have known excellent goods which would have fetched double the price if they had had another name upon them.

Cross-examined. Cleaver's soap and Pear's soap are retailed at 2d. the quarter-pound tablet—this is only fit for a very cutting trade—I did not remember Simon's name, only his face—I saw him at every sale; sometimes

two or three in a week—he bought odds and ends—I had not seen him since 1874.

Re-examined. I should be very much mistaken if he is not the man I saw at those sales—I firmly believe he is.

JOHN FURRER . I live at 178, Uxbridge Road, Shepherd's Bush—I was a grocer for many years, and have known Chapman five or six years—I have seen him at several sales—I saw him at Williamson's sale at Kilburn, and I saw him at Rouse's sale four or five years ago—I have bought goods at two or three sales this year, and sold them to Chapman—he is a very low buyer in prices—I always found him a very straightforward, kind-hearted man.

Cross-examined. He is a very careful buyer, and gives a very low price for some things—I am in the habit of attending sales, but I have never knowingly seen Simon at any of them.

GEORGE WILLIAM SCHOFIELD . I am clerk to Messrs. Yates and Harris, of 125, Great Tower Street—since the beginning of this year we have supplied Chapman with goods to the extent of 1,700l.; we have always found him ready paying—we have sent in our statement and received the money a day or two afterwards—these were credit transactions—we have standing orders from Mr. Chapman now.

Cross-examined. I don't know that the amount has risen 600l. since I was before the Magistrate—I cannot tell the exact amount.

Witnesses in Reply.

SERGEANT WILLIAMSON (Re-examined). I went to Chapman's shop on the 21st and 22nd, and on each occasion I saw these perfumes exposed for sale at 3 1/2 d. per bottle, this price 4 1/2 d. was not placed on them then, it was then a piece of light cardboard with 3 1/2 d. on it—the pumice soap was exposed for Sale at 1d. a tablet—I am sure I saw it marked in that way—the essences in the glass case were marked at 3 1/2 d. on a small piece of cardboard—since the witness Morrish was examined here yesterday who spoke to 4 1/2 d. being marked on one of the boxes, I have been through the boxes which have been taken possession of by the police—before that an examination had been made in the presence of Mr. Kish and the solicitor, but last evening we made a further examination of the boxes inside and out, and there is no box with 4 1/2 d. marked on it—it is incorrect to say that only four boxes were brought from the ironmonger's shop—the boy Thorpe went three times to the shop, and on each occasion he came back with a number of boxes under his arm, as many as he could carry—he brought them in in the presence of Mr. Chapman and myself and Mr. Delaspie—the number of those boxes was about 12 at the lowest—I am quite certain that was universal soap, and the name of Delaspie being upon it led to the inquiry.

Cross-examined. I am quite sure I saw the essences marked up 3 1/2 d. on a cardboard ticket, and also the perfumes—I put the notes down as Mr. Chapman answered me, and then I made a note in the evening—I did not put in my note that the essences were marked 3 1/2 d.—I treated the essences and perfumes as the same—this was the size of the essences I saw.

WILLIAM CHAMBERLAIN (Re-examined). When I went to Chapman's the perfumes were marked 3 1/2 d. on a piece of cardboard about this size, and the essences in the same way; they were in a box and marked at the

same price, but on a different piece of cardboard—the soap was, I believe, marked 1d.—I looked through all the boxes last night, but found no box with the figures 4 1/2 d. outside or in—they were produced 15. or 16 times at the police-court, and have been in my custody from September 26th; they have been taken backwards and forwards from the station to the Court, and they were in the library, where there are six burners and a large fire, and of course that damaged the goods every day.

Cross-examined. I went to Chapman's to get evidence against him—it occurred to me that 3 1/2 d. was a very low price, and that they would be a piece of evidence against him, but I did not take one—I did not go into the shop again—I know nothing to prevent Williamson taking one of the tickets—when we got to the station I asked for one—I said something at the police-court about having seen the price—I was not asked: I am recalled now and give the evidence for the first time—all these boxes of soap were brought to the police-court, but not made use of, and we have brought two fresh boxes now, which have not been knocked about so much.

Chapman received a good character.

GUILTY . WHITEHOUSE*, SIMMONDS* LEDICOTT*, MAY* and HAYDON*— Five Years' Penal Servitude each. SIMON— To enter into recognisances. GOSLING, HAWKINS, and CHAPMAN— Nine Month's Hard Labour each. WRIGHT and HAYES— Eighteen Months' Hard Labour each. HANCORN— Fifteen Months' Hard Labour.

Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

Reference Number: t18871212-171

171. GEORGE TARLING (16) , Indecently assaulting a person unknown, under the age of 13, on 25th November.

MR. ROGER Prosecuted.

GUILTY .— Judgment respited.

Before R. M. Kerr, Esq.

Reference Number: t18871212-172

172. WILLIAM MAYLON (19) , Unlawfully attempting to have carnal knowledge of Georgina Mary Salisbury, a girl under the age of 13. Second Count, indecently assaulting her.

MR. BAKER Prosecuted.

GUILTY .— Eighteen Months' Hard Labour.

ADJOURNED TO MONDAY, JANUARY 9TH, 1888.


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