Old Bailey Proceedings, 3rd April 1876.
Reference Number: t18760403
Reference Number: f18760403


Sessions Paper.








Short-hand Writers to the Court,










On the Queen's Commission of



The City of London,





Held on Monday, April 3rd, 1876, and following days,

BEFORE THE RIGHT HON. WILLIAM JAMES RICHMOND COTTON , M.P., LORD MAYOR of the City of London; The Hon. Sir CHARLES EDWARD POLLOCK , Knt., one of the Barons of Her Majesty's Court of Exchequer; THOMAS QUESTED FINNIS, Esq., Sir WILLIAM ANDERSON KOBE, Knt., WILLIAM FERNELEY ALLEN, Esq., Sir SIDNEY HEDLEY WATERLOW , Knt., M.P., JAMES FIGGINS , Esq., Aldermen of the said City; Sir THOMAS CHAMBERS , Knt. Q.C., M.P., Common Serjeant of the said City; and ROBERT MALCOLM KERB , Esq., Judge of the Sheriff's Court; Her Majesty's Justices of Oyer and Terminer and General Gaol Delivery of Newgate, holden for the said City, and Judges of the Central Criminal Court.

Henry Edmund Knight. Esq., Alderman.

Edgar Breffit, Esq.


Edgar Alexander Baylis, Esq.

Henry Home wood Crawford, Esq.




A star (*) denotes that prisoners have been previously in custody—two stars (**) that they have been more than once in custody—an obelisk (f) that they are known to be the associates of bad characters—the figures after the name in the indictment denote the prisoner's age.


OLD COURT.—Monday, April 3rd, 1876.

Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

Reference Number: t18760403-259

259. ALBERT RICHARDSON (26), was indicted for unlawfully obtaining 65l. and 120l. of Robert Percy Attenborough, by false pretences.

MR. BESLEY and MR. ATTENBOROUGH conducted the Prosecution; and


ROBERT PERCY ATTENBOROUGH . I am a pawnbroker, at 11, Greek Street, Soho—on 26th July last, the prisoner came and wished to borrow some money on some furs—he brought forty-three sables, a gold watch, and a ring—I asked who he was, and he produced this bill head; I then asked him as to the value of the property—he produced this invoice and said it represented forty of the forty-three sables that he brought—I remarked that the invoice purported that the sables had tails, and those he produced had no tails—he said he had cut off the tails and used them in his business for muffs, &c.—I said that the invoice represented forty, whereas the goods offered were forty-three sables—he said he had brought three sables from his stock—I then lent him 65l. on this agreement note; I lent the money, believing that the forty skins cost 125l.—before I lent the money he signed this agreement note. (This was dated 26th July, 1875, signed "M. Bernard Co., 3, Princes Street, Finsbury") He showed me a letter or telegram and stated that he had to take up an acceptance which had been dishonoured—I am a judge of the value of jewellery—the value of the watch and ring is from 3l. to 3l. 10s.—after he had got the money the skins were done up in a parcel and sent, upstairs into the warehouse, the. jewellery was done up with the invoice and sent downstairs into the plate-room, and the ticket No. 802 was pinned on to the skins, which number corresponded with the number of the agreement which the prisoner signed—at the expiration of the term the goods were sent to public sale; but there was no bid for them—I went to Mr. Davis, and afterwards went to the police-court.

Cross-examined. I advanced the 65l., believing the skins cost 125l.—I have a good many establishments at the West-end—I have not a good deal of experience in furs—the prisoner came to me three times—he pledged furs on two occasions, this was the first transaction: he came and. had

another loan of 120l.—I have four assistants on the premises; I advanced the money without inquiring as to the value of the furs, that is not the way I generally do business, but my manager was away on his holiday, and therefore I had nobody I could send out—I thought I had a good property from the representations made—"Bernard Co." I presume means a partner; I don't know it of my own actual knowledge that he had a p partner—I have not tried to find out, or inquired—I found out that the invoice was a fraudulent one after I had sent the goods to sale, I first found out that the furs were not of the value, I supposed—he did not leave some of the goods with me first of all for me to look at—he came into my private office—he was there from fifteen to twenty minutes—from three to five days elapsed between the first and second time of his coming—I believe he brought all the 120 skins together to me on the second occasion—perhaps I said before the Magistrate that he first brought eighty and forty subsequently; if it is put down I presume I did say so—any fool would know that the tails were gone from the furs—the skins are all here—I will not say that this was the first transaction in skins that I ever had, but it was the first one I can remember, certainly the first to this amount, I may have had a skin for 1l. or something of that sort—shortly before this I had a great quantify of sealskins left, but I did not lend any money on them, they had been in the house ten years.

Re-examined. He produced an invoice on the second occasion—I have not got back my 120l., the third time he came I believe was on 3rd August, and he wanted some more money lent; I did not see him then; I implicitly believed in this document, without such a document I would not have parted with the 65l.—I did not advance anything on the third parcel of skins; I kept them—they were perhaps of the value of 10l. or 15l.; I have kept them up to this time and refused to give them up—I may have said that his partner brought the third lot.

EDWARD SANDERSON . I am assistant to Mr. Attenborough, and have been so for seven years—on 26th July, I saw the prisoner in the passage, leading to the office—immediately after Mr. Attenborough had advanced the 65l., the furs, the gold watch and ring were handed to me; I wrapped up the watch and ring with the invoice, and put this ticket on it, written in private figures, the furs were done up separately and a ticket put on them and sent upstairs, where large parcels are kept—the watch and ring were sent, down to the plate-room—I should think the prisoner was there from fifteen to twenty minutes.

Cross-examined. I did not hear what passed—there was the usual conversation over it—I looked at the furs after they were pledged; I was not there on the second or third occasion.

MAURICE DAVIS . I carry on business in partnership at 4, Jewin Crescent, City, in the name of W. Davis Co., fur skin merchants—this is one of my printed memorandum forms—I do not know the writing on this paper—there has been no such transaction with my firm as is represented there—no one in jay firm authorised the making of such a memorandum—I have do idea how that memorandum came off my premises, we never had any transaction with the prisoner—I don't know him—I have looked at these skins; I should say the outside value of them would be between 20l. and.25l.—skins vary greatly in value, from 2s. to 8l. or 10l., according to quality.

Cross-examined. I don't know the firm of Bernard, of Finsbury Square—I never heard of it—I know Bernard, of Finsbury Square, personally—I don't know that he is a dealer in skins—! don't remember saying before

the Magistrate "I know Bernard, of Finsbury Square personally, he has been to our place of business"—I have seen Bernard once or twice—I don't know whether he was in partnership with the prisoner—I knew he was something in the fur trade—I have not had any dealings with him, nor has my firm—the firm consists of myself, my father and brother—I am not always there, if I am not my brother is—this is not the writing of any person in our firm.

PHILIP SHRIVES (Detective Officer C). I took the prisoner into custody on loath February—I asked him if his name—was Bernard, he said, "No, it is not,"' 1 he was in company with another person who he said was Bernard—I said "Well, you are the person I want, and I shall take you, I have a warrant against you for obtaining 65l. from Mr. Attenborough."

Cross-examined. The other person went part of the way with me to the station, and then he went away—Sanderson came up after I had stopped the prisoner.

EDWARD SANDERSON (re-examined). I saw the person who was with the prisoner, I did not know him by the name of Bernard, I know him by the name of Mitchell—I don't know that he was the prisoner's partner, he did not tell me so.

R. P. ATTENBOROUGH (re-examined). The furs upon which the prisoner got 120l. were sent to auction and they were bought in without a bid—when he came the third time the skins were stopped, that was without his consent; he did not summons me to the police-court for detaining them, but Mr. Knox sent a constable and asked me to come round, and I went before Mr. Knox and explained the matter—I satisfied him that the 120l. had been fraudulently obtained, and he said that there was not a shadow of a stain resting upon me—when I left the Court the clerk came out with me, the prisoner was annoying me in the street, and the clerk said, "You had better come round to the police-station and be charged, rather than let him follow you", I did so, and the inspector refused to take the charge.

By the Prisoner. The third parcel was brought early in August—your proceedings against me before Mr. Knox took place, I think, on the 6th or 7th—I will swear it was within three days of the goods being stopped when. you called on me to ask why I detained the goods your partner brought—I stated that I had grave suspicions as to the value of. the goods already pledged—you did not ask me to go with you to any furriers and if the goods were not worth 200l. I should keep the eighty-two skins, and put them to the others till they were removed.

By THE JUTY. When the prisoner first came he asked for a loan—I don't know that I reduced the amount "he asked, we do not necessarily depreciate the value of goods offered; our value is, what goods will realise at public auction—it was two months afterwards that I found the invoice was a forgery.

GUILTY .He also

PLEADED GUILTY to having been previously convicted at this Court in February, 1873— Seven Years Penal Servitude.

Reference Number: t18760403-260

260. THOMAS MORTON (53), and ADELINE MORTON were indicted for stealing on 18th February, 31b. of mutton and other goods, the property of the Governors of St. Bartholomew's Hospital, two other counts for stealing other property on 19th and 25th February, and SAMUEL LEADBETTER (26) , feloniously receiving the same.

THOMAS MORTON and LEADBETTER PLEADED GUILTY . No evidence was offered against


LEADBETTER, Fifteen Month's Imprisonment.

Reference Number: t18760403-261

261. WILLIAM ALEXANDER IRVINE (38) , Unlawfully obtaining 2l. 9s. 6d. of William Thomas Taylor, by false pretences. Second Count— Obtaining 8l. 10s. 6d. from Ann Guyer.

MR. RIBTON conducted the Prosecution; and MR. WARNER SLEIGH the Defence.

WILLIAM THOMAS TAYLOR . I am a florist, and live at 10, Sandhurst Terrace, Kensal Green—on 18th September, the prisoner called on me and said he was very pleased that I had attended to his father's and late wife's graves, and he wished to settle my account, it was 1l. 13s.—he tendered me this cheque for 4l. 2s. 6d., written on plain paper, drawn on the Continental Bank, Lombard Street, signed, W. A. Irvine—I gave him the difference, 2l. 9s. 6d—I paid the cheque to my butcher, and after a few days it was returned to me marked, "No account"—the prisoner gave me his address," 2, The Terrace, Richmond"—I made enquiries there, I found it was an empty house—I communicated with the police and called at his mother's, 6, Somerset Terrace, Kilburn—I did not see him there—I afterwards obtained a warrant for his apprehension.

Cross-examined. I have known the prisoner between two and three years as an occasional customer—I received one cheque from him before in the early part of.1875, from Belgian; it was a cheque for 50 francs, on a Belgian Bank—that was not" to be paid through the Continental Bank—I believed him to be a respectable gentleman—when he gave me the cheque for 4l. 2s. 6d. he said he had just come from Belgium, and asked me to excuse it being on plain paper as he had not sufficient time to get his cheque-book—he did not tell me that his account was transferred from Belgium to the Continental Bank.

Re-examined. I believed the cheque would be paid when presented—I don't think I should have given him the difference if I had not believed it would be paid, if he had been an entire stranger I don't think I should have done so.

GEORGE HUMPHREYS . I am a cashier at the Continental Bank, Lombard Street, and have been so for about two years—this cheque was presented—there is no account in the name of Irvine, and never has been—it is marked "No account"—that was done by our principal; I know his writing, he has now left the firm.

Cross-examined. I don't know that ours is the principal bank in London, for transferring accounts from abroad, such a thing might be done, it is not a regular thing with us, it is not very often done; I don't remember such an occurrence; I never heard of such a thing—I am not the cashier to whom this cheque was presented; I know there is no such customer as Irvine; I know the names of all the customers—there is a ledger keeper—it is not my duty to keep the books.

ANN GUYER . I am single and live at 2, Russell Gardens, Kensington—I am post mistress there—on 8th or 9th December, the prisoner came to me; I had known him before by frequently calling at the post-office—he asked me how the post-office was getting on, and after a little conversation he asked me if I could change a cheque for him—I said I could not then, but I might later in the day—he called later in the day and presented this cheque. (This was dated 6th December, 1875, for 12l. 10s. 6d. dram by W. R. Irwine, 36, Leinster Square, on the Union Bank of London, Princes Street, payable to bearer.) I gave him the money for it—I asked him his address—he said his private address was Leinster Square, and his business

address was the Echo office—this "W. R. Irwine, Echo office, Circus, London," was written on the back of the cheque—I did not see him write it; he said either of those addresses would find him—the cheque was not crossed when he gave it to me; I seat it to the post-office as a remittance, it was afterwards returned to me marked "No account."

Cross-examined. I did not go to the Echo office, my sister did, she is not here.


Reference Number: t18760403-262

262. WILLIAM ALEXANDER IRVINE was again indicted for felonionsly forging and uttering an order for the payment of 15l. with intent to defraud.

PAUL VARGUES . I keep an hotel in Leicester Square—the prisoner came there in December, and remained about nine days—every day he was at the hotel, he was going the next day, on the 8th day he asked me if I should be able to.' cash a cheque for him—I said yes—he said he was unable to cash it on account of its being crossed, but I could pass it through my bankers—I said "Very well, have you got the cheque"—he said "I will give it you to-morrow"—I said "If you have it, give it me now, and I will send It to my bankers and have it cashed it to-morrow—he gave me this cheque. (This was dated 25th December, 1875, and purported to be drawn by R.C. Wyley, on the Union Bank Princes Street, for 151. endorsed E. G. Irvine, 6, Somerset Terrace") He gave me the cheque on Friday the 29th—on the Saturday afternoon he came down with his portmanteau, said he was going, and handed me an address in France, his father-in-law's, where I could send the balance of the cheque—I said "I don't know that this cheque will be paid, I can't allow you to take your luggage away"—he said "It will be paid all right"—I said "But you cannot take your luggage till I get an answer from the bank"—about, an hour after the porter of the bank came back with the cheque "marked "No account"—I did not let him take his portmanteau—he went away and said "If I cannot come back I will send my messenger and you will give him my portmanteau and the balance"—he never came back or sent any messenger.

JOHN CHARLES MANN . I am chief ledger keeper at the Union Bank of London, Princes Street—this cheque was presented there—we have no account in the name of the drawer; "No account" was put on it by my direction—we have a customer named Wylie, but the name is spelt differently, and the initials are different.

GEORGE URBAN (Detective Officer A). I took the prisoner on another charge—I showed him the cheque for 12l. 10s. 6d., I did not mention this charge—I received this 15l. cheque from Mr. Vargues—I have Been the prisoner write—to the best of my belief the body and signature of this cheque is in his handwriting—there is no address of the drawer on this cheque—I found this other cheque on him. (This was dated 8th June, 1876, for 15l. 8s. 9d., purporting to be drawn by R. C. Wyley, 84, Cannon Street, on the Union Bank, Princes Street, endorsed E. C. Irvine.) In consequence of the address on that cheque I found Mr. Wyley.

Cross-examined. It was at the police-station that I saw the prisoner write—he wrote a letter to a friend—I posted it—the inspector was present at the time I took it from the prisoner—he gave it me open; I said I should want to see what it was—I read it in his presence, and it was then put in an envelope and closed—that was the only opportunity I had of seeing him write—it was not exactly similar writing to the cheque, but I

believe both to be his writing—I compared the cheque with the letter and with other writing as well—I have a number of letters and scraps of paper here—the letter was addressed to Mr. Mann or Manning, Railway Record Office, Fleet Street.

ALAN CARSWELL WYLIE . I am an engineer, of 84, Cannon Street—the signature to these cheques is not mine, or written with my authority—there is no other Mr. Wylie in Cannon Street.

Cross-examined. The prisoner is an entire stranger to me, I never saw him till he was arrested.

GUILTY of UtteringJudgment respited.

Reference Number: t18760403-263

263. JOHN DIXON (28) , Stealing a coat and a pot of pomade, of. Richard William Flick.

MR. DENNISON conducted the Prosecution; and

MR. A. B. KELLY the Defence.

RICHARD WILLIAM FLICK . I am a brewer, at Alresford, Suffolk—on 9th February I was staying at the Tavistock hotel—when I left my room in the morning I left in it my carpet bag, a frock coat and several other things, this (produced) is the coat—I had missed the pomade previous to missing the coat—I was present when the prisoner was brought into the manager's room and searched—I was asked by the detective if this was my coat—I said "Yes"—he asked how I could swear to it—I said by the name of the maker on the back of the collar, Scott—the prisoner said. "Oh, I get Scott to make for me very often."

Cross-examined. I left the coat hanging on a chair—I had not put it on for four or five days—I did not lock my bedroom door—I know the pomade pot by the stopper being irregular, and a part of the label having come off when I put it in warm water—it was shown to me in the manager's room—I deal with Mr. Scott, of Bond Street.

WILLIAM BOYLE (Detective Officer E). On 9th February I went to the Tavistock hotel, and the prisoner was brought into the manager's room—I sent for the prosecutor—I asked the prisoner to undo his overcoat, and underneath it he was wearing this coat—the name of Scottson, 55, Bond New Bond Street, is on the collar—I pointed it out to the prosecutor, and he said "This is my coat"—I said "How do you know it"—he said "My coat has in the—band of the collar, 'Scott Son, New Bond Street, London'"—the prisoner turned round and said "Why actually that is my tailor," or words to that effect—the coat was tried on the prosecutor and it fitted him exactly—this pot of pomade was found in his carpet bag, which was locked, in the prisoner's bedroom—I opened it with a key which the prisoner gave me, he had a bunch of sixteen keys.

Cross-examined. He showed a good deal of reluctance in showing the coat—he did not unbutton his overcoat; I had to do it for him; he called me. all the scoundrels he could lay his tongue to, and said I had no business to do this—he did not say the coat had been left in his room by mistake—he was not charged with stealing the pomade at first, only the coat.

ARTHUR ROBERT SCOTT . I am a tailor of 55, New Bond Street—the prosecutor is an old customer of mine—this coat was made for him at my shop—not for the prisoner.

The Prisoner's Statement before the Magistrate: I shall be able to show that the coat was taken in mistake, it was left in my room and put on by mistake.

GUILTY Six Months' Imprisonment.

Reference Number: t18760403-264

264. JOHN DIXON was again indicted for unlawfully pledging certain securities which had been entrusted to him for a special purpose.

No evidence was offered on part of the prosecution


NEW COURT.—Monday, April 3rd, 1876.

Before Robert Malcolm Kerr, Esq.

Reference Number: t18760403-265

265. GAVIN WRIGHT (23), PLEADED GUILTY to unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin after a previous conviction of felony **— Two Years' Imprisonment. And

Reference Number: t18760403-632

632. JOSEPH BLACK (17), to unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin— Twelve Months' Imprisonment. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

Reference Number: t18760403-266

266. THOMAS HORNSBY (21) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.

MR. CRAUFURD conducted the Prosecution; and

MR. COLE the Defence.

JENNY LUND . My father keeps the Cock and Magpie, at Hammersmith—on 5th October, about 11.45 pm., I served "the prisoner with 2d. worth of gin; he gave me a half-crown; I gave it to my father who said in the prisoner's hearing that it was bad and asked him if he had any more—he said "No" and that he got it from his governor, a butcher—Detective Blake, who was in the house at the time, asked him to turn out his pockets—he had only some coppers in them—the florin was put behind a tub in the bar where it remained for about a fortnight till Blake called for it, and I gave it to him—I have since recognised it—it is marked with a cross.

WILLIAM BLAKE (Detective Officer). I was in the Cock and Magpie, and saw the prisoner served with 2d. of gin, he handed something to the barmaid, and her father said what do you call this, this is a bad one, have you any more—he said "No"—I said "Turn out your pockets' he turned them out, and he had some sixpences and coppers good—I asked him who his governor, and he told me—Miss Lund put the coin under a whiskey tub, and I afterwards got it from her—the prisoner was not charged then, but I afterwards saw him at Bow Street.

FRANCES JANE PARFIT . I am barmaid, at the Yorkshire Stingo, Maryle-bone Road—on 11th February, about 10.30 p.m., I served the prisoner with 2d. worth of gin and lime juice, he gave me a half-crown—I put it in the till where there was only a sixpence and a few coppers—he left, and in about ten minutes returned and asked again for 2d. worth of gin and lime juice—he gave me a half-crown, I tried it and told him it was bad—he said that he must have taken it of his master—I told Mrs. Peters and Mr. Ford—the prisoner gave me a good florin, and I gave him the charge—I put the florin in the till with the half-crown, and there was then the half-crown and a sixpence there—I had taken no other coin but coppers—I said "You are the man who came in before"—he said "How do you know, I came in before?"—I said "I am sure you are the same man"—I put the half-crown in the tester, found it was bad and gave it to Ford.

Cross-examined. We do a pretty large business, that was the only till in that bar—the prisoner came right up to me the second time with the second half-crown—a policeman was sent for and he was taken in custody—the prisoner had remained in front of the bar.

GEORGE FORD . I am a barman, at the Yorkshire Stingo—on 11th February, about 10.30 I was called, and my brother showed me a bad half-crown—the prisoner was there, and I asked him who he got it from—he said from his master—I sent for a policeman and went round to the other

side of the bar so that the prisoner could not get away—I went to the station with him, and on the way there I secured this other bad half-crown (produced) from James Hadley—I gave them both to the constable.

Cross-examined. I did not collar the prisoner, but I stood by him.

JAMES FORD . I am a brother of the last witness—what he has said is correct—Miss Parfitt handed me a half-crown, and I handed it to ray brother—the prisoner asked me to look in the till, but I did not do so till after he was gone—I then found a bad half-crown, a florin, a sixpence, and some coppers—I broke a piece out of the half-crown, and gave it to James Alley, who ran not with it.

Cross-examined. The prisoner actually asked me to look in the till—the constable was there.

JAMES ALLEY . I am a fritterer of 7, Chapel Street, Edgware Road—I was in the Yorkshire Stingo, on 11th February, and saw the prisoner given in custody—after he left I secured a half-crown from the last witness and went after them, and gave it to George Ford.

GEORGE VINE (Policeman D 108). I was called into the Yorkshire Stingo, and the prisoner was given into my custody—he said that his father gave him the half-crown previous to his leaving home—he asked the barman to search the till, but it was not done before we left—he did not say why he wanted it searched—I searched him at the station and found three sixpences and 6d. in bronze—I received these two half-crowns (produced) from Ford—the prisoner asked how the barmaid could be sure he had given her a half-crown.

WILLIAM WILSTER . These two half-crowns are bad, and from the same mould.


Reference Number: t18760403-267

267. JOHN CLARK (38), and WILLIAM JOHNSON (24) , Unlawfully having counterfeit coin in their possession with intent to utter it.

MR. CRAUFURD conducted the Prosecution. '

JOHN STOKES DARBY . I am wharf manager to Mr. Freeman, of Westminster—on 23rd February, about 4 p.m., Clark purchased a small piece of stone of me, which came to 9d.—he gave me a florin, and I gave him the change—I found five minutes afterwards that it was bad, when a private constable brought the prisoner into the counting-house and asked me if I had taken a bad florin—I had put it on a desk and it was never mixed with other money—I gave it to a constable at the police-court.

WILLIAM HENRY SNAYSLAND . I am a constable in the employ of Mr. Webster, of St. Martin's Lane—on 23rd February, between three and four o'clock I was in Parliament Street, and saw Johnson, who I knew by the name of Goddard—I spoke to him, and he asked me to have a glass of ale with him—as we walked toward King Street I asked him what he was doing for a living, he said that he was show fle pitching—I said "What do you mean 1 he put his hand in his pocket and pulled out a lot of base coin—Clark than joined us, and I left them and watched them—I saw Clark come out of the stone yard—they beckoned me over, and I went and had a sip of ale with them—I said that I should not be long and went out and asked what coin they had passed—I then got a constable and apprehended them both—we took them to Mr. Freeman's, where Clark was identified—as we came out I saw that Johnson had some coins in his band which he was going to throw away, but I seized his hand and gave them to the constable.

Cross-examined-by Clark The public-house where you were apprehended is about twenty-five yards from the stone yard.

Cross-examined by Johnson. I asked what you were doing, because I knew you; it was a matter of business—I have known you ten or twelve years.

RECORDER. I do not know the phrase shoofly 'pitching, but I could see afterwards that it meant passing bad coin.

ALFRED VENOE (Policeman B 302). I was on duty and Snaysland called me—we went to the public-house and took the prisoners—I found these two bad florins (produced) on Johnson, and two shillings, three sixpences, and Is. 2 1/2d. in bronze, and on Clark a sixpence and 2 1/2d.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . These coins are all bad, the first one is from the same would as one of the two found on Johnson.

Clark's defence. I met a man who I had been at work with, who asked me to go and buy the piece of stone to put in a window cell and he would stand a pot when I came back. He gave me a florin and I bought the stone with it. I did not know it was bad or I should not have gone to the public-house bow near. If the constable had waited a little longer, the man who gave me the florin would have been back.

Johnson's defence. No bad money was found on me.

Clark received a good character.

CLARK— GUILTY Eight Month's Imprisonment.

JOHNSON— GUILTY Two Years' Imprisonment.

Reference Number: t18760403-268

268. JOHN MITCHELL (17) , Unlawfully having in his possession—eight counterfeit coins, with intent to utter them.

MR. CRAUFURD conducted the Prosecution.

SUSAN ELWORTHY . I keep a dairy, at 48, Carnaby Street, and the prisoner came in on 23rd March, and asked me if I had any coppers—I said "How many," he said, 3s. worth"—I counted out 2s. worth and gave him 1s. worth—he put down 3s. which I found were bad—I broke two of them and kept them in my hand—I told him they were bad, and he said "Please give them to me, and I will take them back to where I got—them from"—I said "No, I shall give you in custody," he ran away—I was alone in the shop and did not follow him—I afterwards gave the bad coins to the detective.

JAMES ODED (Detective Officer). I was on duty and saw the prisoner about 300 yards from Carnaby Street, going westward, and trying a white coin in his mouth—I asked him were he got it from, and he put it in his pocket—I said "Have you got any more," and he put these (produced) in his hat—another constable found more bad coins in his pocket—altogether, with the coins Susan Elworthy gave me, eight coins were taken from him.

PHILIP SHRIVES (Detective Officer C). I was with Oded and searched the prisoner—I found this money, (produced) upon him—he put some coins in his hat.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . These are bad coins, and among the eight are four of the same mould as the two.

Prisoner's Defence. A young man gave me a parcel of coins to mind, and I put some in my hat. I was never in the woman's shop.

GUILTYJudgment respited.

Reference Number: t18760403-269

269. FREDERICK WATTS (18) , Unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.

MR. CRAUFURD conducted (the Prosecution; and MR. M. WILLIAMS the Defence.

ADELAIDE WINSBORROW . My father keeps the Two Chairmen—the prisoner and two other men were in our house between 10 and 11 o'clock on Saturday evening, 18th March—the prisoner tendered me five bad shillings in payment for drink—I called in my father and gave him the coins—a constable was sent for and the prisoner taken by him with the coins.

Cross-examined. The prisoner ordered Irish whiskey, which he and his friends drank—he was there about an hour and a half; he was there a long time before ordering anything—there was only myself serving in the bar—I kept the money in my hand—the prisoner was sober—he treated the others.

JOHN WINSBORROW . I am the father of the last witness—I received from her the 5s.—I tried them and told the prisoner he had given five bad coins—he said he had made a mistake—there was a disturbance in another part of the house—a constable was brought in to whom the prisoner was given in custody and who had the coins.

JAMES BRIDGES . I was in the public-house and saw the prisoner tender the shilling—the witness called her father and told him the prisoner had given her bad money—there were two other men with the prisoner—I was there when the constable came.

JOHN WESTWOOD (Policeman C 38). I was called to the house because of the disturbance, and while there the prisoner and these coins were given into my custody—two other persons in his company tried to rescue him from me.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . These 5s. are bad; three are from one mould, and two from another.

Cross-examined. I have been connected with the Mint twenty-five years—I know, generally speaking, that counterfeit coiners go from one place to another to pass their money—I have known many cases where persons have come back the same day and the same minute to again pass bad money.

The Prisoner received a good character.

GUILTYRecommended to mercy by the Jury Twelve Months' Imprisonment.

Reference Number: t18760403-270

270. WALTER HARPER (20), was indicted for a like offence.

MR. CRAUFURD conducted the Prosecution; and MR. FRITH the Defence.

MARY DIEM . I am the wife of John Diem, and keep a chandler's shop—on 15th March the prisoner came into my shop at about 6.30 p.m.—he asked for a biscuit and gave me a bad sixpence—I told him of it", and he said "Is it"—I told him he had given me a bad 2s. piece when he was in my shop, before—he said "I was never in your shop before"—I called my husband down and the prisoner was given in custody with the florin, which I had kept by itself.

Cross-examined. He put the 6d. in his mouth and asked me if it was bad—T swear I did not say "Oh, you must be the man that gave me the 2s. piece"; I said "You are the man"—I did say "If you do not give me 2s. I won't let you go"—then he said "Oh, you make a mistake, I never was here"—he said that he had not the money with him, but that he would give it to me—it was about ten days after I received the florin that he tendered me the 6d.—I knew him before, and he used to come in every night for a packet of cocoa at about 8 o'clock.

MARY ANN WILLIS . I am the owner of 89, Berwick Street, which I have let to Mrs. Diem for the last six or eight weeks—I was in her shop when the prisoner came in, I cannot tell the date—he asked for 1/4 lb. of prunes, which

came to 13/4d., and put down Is.—I took it up and said "This is bad"—he took it up and put down a good one, saying "I should like a few like it"—I said "I should not like many of those"—he got his change and left—I was not there when the 2s. were found, but I saw him in the shop when he gave the 6d. heard what the first witness said, that is correct.

JOSEPH BUNYAN (Policeman C 261). On 16th March, about 6.30, I was called to Mrs. Diem's, and the prisoner was given into my charge with this bad florin and 6d. (produced)—I found on him 8 1/2d. in copper.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . This florin and 6d. are bad.

The Prisoners Statement before the Magistrate. "On Wednesday I lost a day. I had my breakfast at a coffee shop. I had some ale with a friend and changed a shilling and got a sixpence change, and then I went in for 1d. worth of biscuits. I gave the lady 6d. and she went to get change and came back and said it was a bad one. I put it to my teeth and gave her another. She said 'You must be the one who gave me the 2s. piece, if you do not give me 2s. I won't let you go.' I said sooner than lose a day's work I would give it to her, but I had not it with me, and she said 'I must lock you up.'"

MRS. DIEM. When I saw that the 6d. was bad I kept it in my hand—I tried it with my teeth; I did not give it back to my husband—the prisoner offered me another 6d. before the policeman came.

The Prisoner received a good character.


OLD COURT—Tuesday, April 4th, 1876.

Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

Reference Number: t18760403-271

271. JOHN HAMMERMAN (21) Robbery with violence, together with two others, on Edward Hyett and stealing from his person a watch, his property.

MR. MONTAGU WILLIAMS conducted the Prosecution;

EDWARD HYETT . I am a baker, and live at 50, Smith Street, St. George's in-the-East—on Sunday evening, 12th September, between 9 and 10 o'clock, I was in Royal Mint Street, going to my employment—I had a silver watch in my left waistcoat pocket attached to my button hole by a chain—I had a tall hat on—some parties came behind me and tried to knock my hat over my eyes—I went into the middle of the road and called for the assistance of the police—they threw me on my back and my head was cut in two places—I called out "Police.'" repeatedly—three or four persons surrounded me in the road, I can't swear to any of them; they tore my coats open and took my watch away—one of them placed his hand over my mouth so that I should not halloo—they then all ran away—I was stunned; some one took me to a surgeon, and I had two scalp wounds where I fell on my head in the road; they had to be sewn up.

JOHN WILLIAM SMITH . I am a tailor, 8, Minories—about 9.30 this Sunday evening I was in Royal Mint Street—I heard a shout of "Police!"and saw three young men running in the road from the direction of the cry; the prisoner was one of them—as they passed one said to the other "If you don't mind what you are doing I will give you a b——job in the eye"—they ran close past me—I then went up to the prosecutor and found him lying in the road, he was just beginning to get up—I waited till a constable came, and gave him information—next morning I was fetched to Leman Street police-station—fourteen men were placed before me and I picked out the prisoner, he was wearing the same cap and clothes as he had on the Sunday night.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. I did not say anything to you at the time I identified you; I told the constable I recognised you by your features and by your clothes—you are the man that passed nearest me.

WILLIAM HUTT (City Policeman). In consequence of information I received from Smith, on 12th December, I took him to the Leman Street station, on the 13th—the prisoner was there in custody on another charge with two other men—they were placed with eleven others—Smith then told me the prisoner was one of the men; he had a doubt about the other two—the prisoner was sent to the House of Correction for three months on the other charge, and at the expiration of that time I took him into custody on this charge.

GUILTY He also

PLEADED GUILTY to a previous conviction in March. 1873**— Seven Years' Penal Servitude.

Reference Number: t18760403-272

272. JOHN PARKER. (18) and WILLIAM WORTLEY (19) , Robbery with violence on Thomas Ewins and stealing a watch, his property.

MR. RIBTON. conducted the Prosecution; and MESSRS. STRAIGHT and MONTAGU WILLIAMS the—Defence.

THOMAS EWINS . I am a pensioner—I have lately removed from 15, Alexandra Terrace, Clapham—on 25th February, a little after 7 o'clock p.m., I was walking in the Mile End Road with my wife—when I came to the corner of St. Peter's Road, next the brewery, Parker made a snatch at my watch chain, he gave it a twist, the chain broke at the swivel, and he ran away with the chain as fast as he could up St. Peter's Road—I ran after him—a man came and tripped me up with his foot and sent me right on my face and hands; I hurt my shoulder very much—I believe by his dress and stature that Wortley is that man, but I could not swear to him, I did not see his face—I got up and called "Stop thief!"and ran as fast as I could, and my wife also—Parker was stopped by the witness Dixon—I came up and said "You vagabond, where is my chain?"—he said "I have not got it"—he began to cry, or appeared to do so, and said if I would let him go he would go on his knees and beg my pardon—he dropped the chain—my wife pointed to it at his feet in the gutter and she picked it up—I am perfectly sure he is the man that snatched it.

Cross-examined by MR. M. WILLIAMS. It was done very quickly, indeed—there were people about, but that was rather a bye place and rather dark—there was a lamp, just at the corner—Parker was stopped within 20 or 30 yards—when I said where his my chain, he looked on the ground and said "Why, there's your chain."

Cross-examined by MR. STRAIGHT. This was about 7.15; it might be between 7 and 8 o'clock—my watch glass was broken, and I took it to the watch-maker's to have a glass put in, and it was then about 8 o'clock.

ANNIE EWINS . I was with my husband, and saw Parker snatch at his watch—I am positive he is the man, he ran as fast as he could up St. Peter's Road, my husband followed him—Wortley tripped him up, I am quite certain of him; I ran and called stop thief; Parker was caught by Mr. Dixon—I came up and asked him for my husband's watch and chain—he said "I have not got his watch"—I said "If you have not got his watch, you have got his chain"—after a little time he said if I would let him go he would tell me where the chain was—he afterwards said it was in the gutter; I saw it and picked it up—I did not see him drop it—a constable was fetched, and he was taken to the station—Wortley followed and asked

me what the young man had been doing—I told him he knew very well—I had seen the two prisoners together crossing the road before Parker snatched the chain.

Cross-examined by MR. M. WILLIAMS. I may make a mistake sometime?, but in the present case 1 do not, it was very sudden, and rather dark, not very—Parker had ran two or three times the length of this Court, before he was stopped—he said "I have not got the chain, there it is in the gutter," and there it was.

THOMAS DIXON . I am a cellar man, and live 33, Burnside Street, Bow—on 25th February, a little after 7 o'clock, I heard a cry of "Stop thief" as I was coming up St. Peter's Road, I saw Parker running round the corner, I caught him by the collar—he said "Let me go, it is only an affair of punching a man in the nose"—I said "I shall do nothing of the kind, stop with me"—I held him and the old lady and gentleman came up—the prosecutor said "Give me my watch and chain"—he said "I have not got your watch and chain"—he said "No, you have got my chain"—he turned round and said "I never done such a thing as this before," and he went on his knee and cried, or attempted to cry, and said "If I tell you where your chain is, will you let me go"—the prosecutor said "I will"—he said "There it is in the gutter, there"—the old lady picked it up and gave it to me—a policeman came up in a few minutes and I handed him over and gave the chain to the sergeant at the station—I saw nothing of Wortley.

JANET HOUGHTON . I am single, at this time I was living at 471, Mile End Road—a little after 7 o'clock, I was walking up the Mile End Road and I saw Wortley put out his foot and knock the prosecutor down under the lamp—I am sure he is the man—I did not see Parker.

GEORGE GOLDSMITH (Policeman K 492). I received Parker in custody from Dixon—I told him the charge—he said "Very well, all right."

WILLIAM HUNT (Detective Officer K). I took Wortley into custody—the prosecutor pointed him out to me—I told him the charge—he said "You have made a mistake this time Mr. Hunt, be careful what you are doing;" I was going to the Forester's Music Hall—I said "You are going quite the reverse way to it"—he was going the reverse way—I took him to. the station, and both the females identified him—he gave a correct address.

GUILTY. PARKER was also proved to having been previously convicted in August, 1873 *— Fifteen Months' Imprisonment.

WORTLEY received a good character— Nine Month's Imprisonment.

Reference Number: t18760403-273

273. WILLIAM TOWNSEND, (43) PLEADED GUILTY to unlawfully foiling to discover to his trustee, all his real and personal property. Second Count—for not delivering up the property— To enter into his own recognisances in 100l. to appear if called upon and.

Reference Number: t18760403-274

274. WILLIAM CHARLES SMITH , to unlawfully obtaining by false pretences 23l. 15s., also fifty bottles and money to the amount of 46l. 11s., having been before convicted— Six Months' Imprisonment. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

NEW COURT.—Tuesday, April 4th, 1876.

Before Robert Malcolm Kerr, Esq.

Reference Number: t18760403-275

275. GEORGE DRURY (56) , PLEADED GUILTY ** to. two indictments for stealing pewter pots after a previous conviction in July, 1873— Seven Years' Penal Servitude.

Reference Number: t18760403-276

276. EDMUND FRANSHAM (25) , to stealing one half-crown and one florin, of Charles Smith, his master— Five Years' Penal Servitude. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

Reference Number: t18760403-277

277. ERNEST SEPTIMUS PRICE (17) , to four indictments for feloniously forging, altering, and uttering receipts for the payment of money with intent to defraud.

He received a good character. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.] Recommended to mercy— Eighteen Months' Imprisonment.

Reference Number: t18760403-278

278. ANNE WELLER (49) , to stealing 42 yards of alpaca after a previous conviction in February, 1871**— Ten years' Penal Servitude. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

Reference Number: t18760403-279

279. FRANCIS ROBERT GROSVENER (28) , to stealing 20l. and other sums, of George Walter Tyler and others, his masters.— Five Years' Penal Servitude. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

Reference Number: t18760403-280

280. ROBERT RAY (16), JAMES SMITH (20), and CHARLES THOMPSON ** (22), to stealing 300lbs. of lead and other goods, the property of the Earl of Radnor — Twelve Months' Imprisonment each [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

Reference Number: t18760403-281

281. FRANCIS GOLDING (49) , to feloniously forging and uttering an endorsement to a bill for 600l. with intent to defraud— Twelve Months' Imprisonment. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

Reference Number: t18760403-282

282. WILLIAM PAULEY (25) , to stealing a shawl and other articles, of Bernard, Birnbaum, his masters, also to stealing leather leggings, after a conviction at this Court in 1870— Seven Years' Penal Servitude. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

Reference Number: t18760403-283

283. WILLIAM HENRY FAZAKERLEY (18) , to feloniously receiving a clock and a chain, well knowing them to have been stolen, also to receiving 8 yards of cloth, of Samuel Nelson and another, his masters, also to breaking the window of Edward Walker, with intent to commit a burglary.— [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.] Judgment Respited.

Reference Number: t18760403-284

284. JOHN FOSTER** (31) , to stealing a roll of cloth, value 5l., of Thomas Emsworth after a previous conviction in 1867— Ten Years' Penal Servitude and. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

Reference Number: t18760403-285

285. PATRICK STUART (47) , to feloniously marrying Martha Sewell, his wife being alive— Five Years' Penal Servitude. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

Reference Number: t18760403-286

286. JOHN BILLINGSLEY (32), and WALTER GILLIES (22) , Stealing 121 yards of cloth of the London and North Western Railway Company, the masters of Billingsley.

MESSRS. STRAIGHT and HUMPHRIES conducted the Prosecution; Mr. W.SLEIGH appeared for Billingsley and Mr. Cole for Gillies.

THOMAS THURSTON (Railway Police Sergeant). The prisoner Gillies is in the employ of Messrs. Chaplin Horne—his van is No. 626—Billingsley is a van setter in the employ of the London and North Western Railway Company—in consequence of instructions I received I watched the prisoners, and on 13th March, about 7.45 I saw Billingsley go to Pickford's van 238, look at it and 'go away—he returned in a few minutes with Gillies, who mounted the van and examined the goods while Billingsley stood looking at him—Gillies came down and they had a conversation, which I could not hear—they went away and returned in about five minutes—Gillies again mounted the van and handed down this truss (produced) to Billingsley, who carried it a short distance to Chaplin Horne's van 626—Gillies mounted that van, received the truss from Billingsley and placed it between two casks in the front of the van, under the driving seat—I came out of my hiding place, Gillies jumped down oft the van—Billingsley said something to him which I could not catch—I followed them and stopped them as they were making their way into the street—Gillies said "What are you stopping me for?"—I said "I charge you with stealing that truss"—he said "You have got me, you may make the best of me"—Billingsley said "I was not there when you took me."

Cross-examined by MR. W. SLEIGH. It was daylight—I was 15 or 20 yards from them, concealed on top of a loaded van in the open ware-house—they were in the same warehouse.

Cross-examined by MR. COLE. I have been ten years a detective—I had been watching the prisoners for a week—no one else was there.

GEORGE BERKSHIRE . I am a delivery foreman, in the employ of Chaplin & Horne—I know Gillies, van No. 626 was in his possession on 13th March—it was his duty to get his horse and deliver that load.

Cross-examined by MR. COLE. He has been in Chaplin Home's employ about six years.

HENRY EDWARD YOUNG . I am outdoor superintendent at the Goods Station, Broad Street—it was not Billingsley's duty to load or unload any of the vans, nor had he authority to order a parcel to be removed from one van to another.

Cross-examined by MR. COLE. A van setter is a man who removes vans either loaded or empty wherever they are required.

Re-examined. He has nothing to do with removing the goods and has no control over them.

GUILTY Five years' Penal Servitude each.

There was another Indictment against the prisoners.

Reference Number: t18760403-287

287. JOHN SIMPSON (17), and DANIEL WESTON (20) , Stealing a watch of Daniel Levy, from his person, to which


MR. COOPER conducted the Prosecution.

FREDERICK DOWNES (City Detective 102). Between 3 and 4 p.m. on March 6th, I was on duty in High Street, Aldgate, and saw the prisoner and another man who is not in custody—I watched them—there were a great number of people there, and I saw Mr. Levy and a lady—Weston placed himself on Mr. Levy's left and Simpson was behind him—the man not in custody was in front impeding her progress—Weston put his left hand under his own right arm and lifted the chain "from Mr. Levy's pocket—I saw it fall, and then Weston passed something to Simpson—I called out "Your watch is gone," and put my arm round the prisoners—Simpson put his hand in his trowsers pocket and threw the watch into a cart—a gentleman picked it up and gave it to me—Scarlett came up and took Simpson from me—Weston kicked me twice on the knee; I got him to the other side of the road; he seized me by the throat and jammed my head against the wall—blood came from my mouth—he said "You sod, if you don't let me go I will strangle you"—a number of roughs came up and assisted him—he became very violent and the uniform men had to draw their truncheons—I was taken to the hospital and laid there four days.

JOHN SCARLETT (City Policeman 915). I was on duty—Downes seized the two prisoners and called to me—I seized Simpson—Weston put his foot before me, I did not fall, but in recovering myself I laid hold of Simpson by the left leg—he put his right hand into his pocket and slung this watch away among the carts—I found this chain in Simpson's waistcoat to represent that he was wearing a watch.

DASIEL LEVY . I live at Bow—I lost my watch in Aldgate on 6th March, this is it; it was attached to a chain to my waistcoat, and somebody called to me and I missed it.

Weston's Defence. I was not with him at all. I was looking at the decorations and the detective pounced upon me and nearly strangled me. I was not there when the watch was stolen.

WESTON*— GUILTY Five years Penal Servitude each.

Reference Number: t18760403-288

288. HAWKEY PRYNNE (22) , Stealing 6l., the monies of George Henry Phillips.

MR. POLAND conducted the Prosecution.

GEORGE HENRY PHILLIPS . I was shop foreman to Messrs. Hill Son, of 60, Bishopsgate Street, confectioners—the prisoner was in their service and another man named Thompson—the prisoner and I occupied the same room, and Thompson slept upstairs—ours was a back room on the second floor—I kept money in that room in a tin box in a drawer which was locked—the prisoner knew that, because he was there one morning when I took some money out to lend to Thompson—the prisoner was discharged, and he and Thompson both left on Tuesday—on the next Saturday, the 26th, I went out about 8.45, leaving my bedroom safe and 6l. in the box in the drawer, there were four sovereigns, three half-sovereigns, and some silver—I was away half an hour—I had seen the box safe a quarter of an hour before I went out, at 8.30, and when I returned I found that the drawer had been forced open and the money taken out—I went to the prisoner's lodgings the same night, but could not find him; I saw him next morning at 11.30—he was taken in custody and searched—Clara Hartley was in the house when I went out.

Prisoner. I went to the house for a tobacco pouch which you have of mine, also for some books and a brush.

CLARA HARTLEY . I am housemaid to Messrs. Hill—on Saturday evening, 26th February, the prisoner came there and came upstairs for his clothes brush—he was alone—he went down to Mr. Phillips' room, where he had slept, for his clothes brush; he was only there about two minutes—he came out with books under his arm, but 1 saw no clothes brush—the kitchen door was open and he had to pass it to go to Mr. Phillips' bedroom—Mr. Phillips had gone there just before—no one but the prisoner passed the kitchen door I am sure—after the prisoner left Mr. Phillips returned and complained of the loss of his money—the entrance is through the shop.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. You came into the kitchen and asked me in the cook's presence whether you could go into the bedroom and fetch your brush and things—the cook offered you a glass of beer—you said "I cannot find the brush, will you kindly look for it and keep it for me if you see it."

CHARLES SPILLEY (Policeman). On Saturday night, 16th February, I went to Tichborne Street, with Mr. Phillips, and waited till 2 am., but did not find the prisoner—I found him at the station, about 11.30 next morning, took him to Bishopsgate Station, and found on him 2l. 2s. 6d.


Reference Number: t18760403-289

289. JAMES HENRY DUNCAN HARPER (28) , Feloniously marrying Margaret Agnes Harvey, his wife being alive.

MR. A. METCALFE conducted the Prosecution; and MR. MOODY the Defence.

ROBERT WESTON SURTEES . I a ship owner of North Shields, and know the prisoner very well—I first knew him in 1867 or 1868, and he was in my employ in 1869—I was present when he was married to my wife's sister at the Wesleyan Chapel, North Shields, and produce a copy of the certificate. (This certified the marriage of James Henry Duncan Harper, and Martha Eleanor Mann, at Tynemouth, on 16th November, 1869). I saw the prisoner's wife last Saturday night—the prisoner left his employment in 1871, and left Tynemouth altogether—I afterwards went to the parish of St. Matthews and obtained—this other certificate. (Read: "St. Matthew, Middlesex,

19th April, 1875, James Henry Duncan Harper, batchelor, and Margaret Agnes Harvey, spinster, married by banns.") I saw the entry, it was signed in the prisoner's writing.

Cross-examined. I have had no instructions from or communication with the second wife—I am her brother-in-law—I am aware that the prisoner has written a letter expressing doubts of her fidelity, but he withdrew it entirely—this (produced) is his withdrawal—he never complained of her fidelity till the letter of 1st July, 1875 (produced), that was the first time he ever made such a charge to my knowledge.

GEORGE GILLINGHAM . I live at 52, Charlotte Street, Portman Place—in April, 1875, I was present at a marriage, between the prisoner and a woman named Harvey.

GUILTY Five Years' Penal Servitude.

Reference Number: t18760403-290

290. JOHN WILLIAMS, (19) Stealing a watch of Robert McEwen, from his person.

MR. A. B. KELLY conducted the Prosecution.

ROBERT MCEWEN . On Saturday eight, 18th March, I was walking in Holborn, somebody rushed past me and snatched my watch—I am almost sure it was the prisoner—I pursued him, a policeman stopped the prisoner and I gave him in custody—I am not positively sure of him, but just next to it.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. I had not been drinking; I had dined.

GEORGE LOCKYER (Policeman E 208). I was on duty, heard cries of stop thief, and saw the prisoner coming towards me—I stopped him and said "What is the matter?"—he said "I do not know I have not got the gentleman's watch"—no one had said anything about a watch then, but a moment afterwards the prosecutor arrived and said that he had lost his watch and should charge the prisoner with it—the watch was picked no.

Prisoner. I did not say anything about the watch.

Witness. You did.

SAMUEL HARPER . I live at 48, Eagle Street, Holborn—on this Saturday night, I heard a cry of "Stop thief"—I was in ray parlour—I went out and saw the prisoner standing by the constable, a few doors off—I ran up and he was removed round the corner—as I went back I picked up this watch within a few yards of where the prisoner was stopped.

Cross-examined. I did not say at the police-court, that I found it 50 yards from where you were stopped.

Prisoner's Defence. I saw a crowd and went up to see what it was; I saw the prosecutor drunk, and swinging his stick about and jumping; I laughed at him and he struck me with his stick; I ran away and he ran after me and caught his stick in his trowsers or waistcoat, and two or three men got bold of him and began to pull him about; they shoved me away and I ran. The prosecutor called "Stop thief," and the policeman stopped me. The prosecutor came up and he fell down from drink before he got up to me. As I was going down the witness gave the policeman the watch and said "You have got the jack." The policeman said that he would "make it up for me. "I can get nine or ten witnesses to say that the prosecutor was drunk and incapable.

GEORGE LOCKYER (re-examined). McEwen was perfectly sober—no one but the prisoner was running within 30 yards.

SAMUEL HARPER (re-examined). McEwen was not drunk—he walked from the Eagle to the inspector, and there was nothing the matter with him that I saw.


Reference Number: t18760403-291

291. WILLIAM CAIN (29) , Stealing a coat of John Henry Puttick.

MR. FOSTER-REED conducted the Prosecution.

BENJAMIN LOCK . I am in the employ of Mr. Puttick, of 44, Fleet Street—on 1st March, I heard him call out "High," and saw the prisoner leaving the shop with a coat thrown over his shoulder—I followed him, he dropped the coat and ran across to St. Dunstan's Church—I never lost sight of him till he was taken in Bell Yard—this is the coat (produced).

Cross-examined by Prisoner. I did not see your face, but I did not lose sight of you, the coat did not hide your face, because you dropped it—I did not see another man running towards Fetter Lane.

THOMAS COLE (City Policeman 452). I saw the prisoner running, followed him into Bell Yard and took him without losing sight of him.

Prisoner's Defence. I met two men; I know one of them left us and returned with the coat. I immediately saw that it was stolen and ran away. I did not touch it, or enter the shop.


He was further charged with a previous conviction at Clerken-well in August, 1870, to which he

PLEADED GUILTY**— Ten Years' Penal Servitude.

Reference Number: t18760403-292

292. GEORGE FISHER (18), and JAMES SPICER (21) , Robbery on Cohen Marks, and stealing a watch and chain his property.

MR. A. METCALFE conducted the Prosecution.

COHEN MARKS . I am a Dutch surgeon, of 28, Princes Square—on 10th March, about 9.30 I was going home through Shovel Alley, and heard footsteps behind me—a woman cried out "Gentleman, take care there are thieves after you"—I turned to my right and some one put his right hand on my face and mouth, and one or two others got my arms in this position, another man unbuttoned my over coat and took my watch and chain and handkerchief—I cried "Police," and they ran away—my watch has not been found—I Cannot identify either of them.

Cross-examined by Spicer. I did not say at the police-court that you were not the men.

HARRY SMEETH . I am a grocer's boy, and live at 3, Chapman Place—I was in Shovel Alley about 9.30 p.m. and saw four chaps pass me, the prisoners are two of them—one stood at the bottom of the alley and three of them went to Mr. Marks and put their hands over his mouth and round his throat, unbottoned his coat and took his watch—when one of them was caught he had two black eyes.

Cross-examined by Fisher. You were laughing as you went by and you all helped.

RICHARD COLLIER . I live at 44, Spencer Street—I was in Shovel Alley and saw Marks there and four chaps, the prisoners are two of them—they all ran towards him put their hands over his mouth, took his watch and chain and ran round the square.

Fisher. I did not. I am not strong enough. I can hardly hold myself up.

MICHAEL JACOBS . I live at 129, Cable Street—I was in Cable Street, and saw four young men—this gentleman had some eggs and bread and butter, one of the boys looked into the public-house and they ran after him—one put his hand over his mouth and the other took his watch and chain—the prisoners are two of them.

Cross-examined by Fisher. You had that scarf on when you did it.

JOSEPH NEWMAN (Detective Officer H). I took the prisoners on the 12th,

two days afterwards, took them to the station and some persons brought to identify them failed to do so—I took Fisher again on the 16th, and charged him with being concerned in stealing a watch, he said "Do you think if I had done anything wrong I should be walking about here"—I said "I don't know"—I went with detective Girling to Spicer's house—Girling went up-stairs and I waited below—a woman came there who had been to the station to ask if George Fisher was locked up—Girling took Spicer—they were put with four others and identified by the three boys and the female.

Spicer. The boy Collier identified neither of us, he picked out a boy with a blue gurnsey.

Witness. He picked out one other boy who I knew was innocent; he also picked out Fisher, but he did not identify you—I did not tell the boys anything about your dress.

WILLIAM GIRLING (Detective Officer H). I took Spicer on 16th March—He said "You have taken me before on the same charge, so help me God, I am innocent. I know nothing about it.

Spicer's Defence. I was at work at the time.

GUILTY Fisher was further charged with a previous conviction at Clerkenwell in 1874, to which he

PLEADED GUILTY. FISHER**— Seven Years' Penal Servitude.

SPICER— Five years' Penal Servitude.

OLD COURT.—Wednesday, April 6th, Thursday, 7th, and Friday 8th, 1876.

Before Mr. Baron Pollock.

Reference Number: t18760403-293

293. FERDINAND KEYN was indicted for feloniously killing and slaying Jessie Dorcas Young on the high seas. Second Count—within the jurisdiction of this Court. He was also charged on the Coroner's Inquisition with the like offence.


STRAIGHT conducted the Prosecution; and


ARCHIBALD DONALD . I am master of the vessel, The Queen of Nations—on 17th February, I was near Dover on board my barque—I saw three bodies in the water, two men and one woman—I picked them up and brought them to London—the woman was dead when she was brought on board my vessel—I gave her body to Terry, the Thames police inspector.

JAMES WILLIAM TERRY (Thames Police Inspector). I received from Donald the body of a woman, with two others, in the parish of Poplar—I conveyed it to the mortuary in High Street, Clapham, and it was afterwards viewed by the Coroner's Jury.

ROBERT FREDERICK YOUNG . I reside at Kingsland—I am a bank clerk—Jessie Dorcas Young was my sister; she was about 19 years of age and unmarried; she was a first-class passenger on board the Strathclyde on 17th February, going to Bombay—on 21st February I saw her body at the Poplar dead-house; it was the body that was viewed by the Jury at the inquest.

THOMAS GRAY . I am a member of the Royal College of Surgeons, and reside at Poplar—on 22nd February I saw and examined the dead body of a woman there, it was the body that was viewed by the Coroner's Jury at the inquest—in my opinion her death was caused by exhaustion and shock to the system occasioned by immersion in the water.

JOHN DODD EATON . I was captain of the Strathclyde—I started from London on Thursday morning, 17th February, about 5.30, from the Victoria Dock, bound for Bombay—I carried twenty-five passengers and forty-seven

crew, including myself—we arrived off Dover at 3.30 in the afternoon—I stopped there to discharge my pilot—after that my course was S W by S—I started at 3.55—I noticed the Franconia immediately after I started, that was about sixteen minutes before the collision—we had started full speed, but it had taken our ship a little time to get way on her—at the time of the collision we were going about 9 knots—when we started the Franconia was on our port quarter—I judged her to be about 3 miles off, she was coming apparently from outside the Goodwin Sands, coming down channel—she appeared to be going very much faster than we were, she was overtaking us, she was to the east of us—I continued the course that I was steering, for about sixteen minutes; I did not alter my course until I saw the Franconia very close to us, so that I could read her name on the bows and saw her overlapping us, and then I altered our course from S W by S to S W half S, that would be half a point; the effect of that would be to bring our head nearer to the land and from the Franconia—I then went to look at the compass to see that this order was obeyed and I saw that it was obeyed, and on looking up from the compass I saw the bows of the Franconia coming round towards our vessel—she had altered her course and was altering all the time under a port helm, that would bring her directly for us—I did not alter my course until I saw that the Franconia had overlapped us on our port side—I then saw that a collision was inevitable, and to avoid the direct blow I put our helm hard a port, so that it might be a sliding blow if possible—if I had kept our course the blow would have been direct stem on—my vessel answered her helm a little—the Franconia struck us on the port side between the engine-room bulkhead and the after batch, about 60 feet from the stern—the length of my vessel was 300 feet—the stem of the Franconia penetrated about 4 feet into the Strathclyde, she rebounded and again struck us nearer towards the stern, making another hole; both blows were on the port side—she then dragged along the port side, carrying away one of the boats, until she cleared our stern—I did not observe any one on the look out on the Franconia, I could have seen perhaps had I looked particularly, but I noticed no one; I was in a position to see if they had been standing there; I could see some one on the bridge, it was flood tide, not high water, been half flood and high water—the tide was running about E S E—the wind was W S W, it was nothing to interfere with the conduct of steam vessels, there was a fresh breeze—I was not watching the Franconia immediately after the collision for some time—I saw her again just before our vessel sank, then I noticed her steaming towards Dover—as near as I could judge from ten to eleven minutes elapsed between the striking of the first blow and the sinking of our vessel—when I saw her steaming towards Dover she was, I think, about half a mile from us, or a little more; she appeared to me to have steamed away, going towards the land; she never came back to us—after the collision I went aft to see what damage had been done; I saw the water rushing in with terrific force—I told the ladies to come up on the bridge with me, and the other passengers, as I saw the ship's stern sinking rapidly—previous to leaving the bridge I had given orders to lower the lifeboats, not only one, but two, to clear them away—when I came back to the bridge with the lady passengers I found the port lifeboat ready for lowering—I placed the ladies in the boat in charge of the third officer and three of the crew—just at that moment the extreme end of our ship's stern went under water and a number of the gentlemen passengers and my own crew rushed into this boat—we were then unable with so many people in it to swing her

out, and I appealed to my own crew and the gentlemen passengers to come out for God's sake and let the ladies have the first chance—some men got out, gentlemen passengers and some of my own crew, and two or three of the ladies got out, saying "If it will help you, captain, we will get out"—they got out and I directed them to go into the other lifeboat on the star-board side, which they did—we then swung the port lifeboat out and lowered her down into the water—I saw the boat unhooked from the tackles and told the crew to shove off—just at this moment a heavy sea, caused, I think, by the sinking of the vessel's stern, drove the boat forcibly against the ship's side and overturned her—I then immediately turned my attention to the starboard lifeboat, but seeing the ship had sunk so much then I saw we had no time to endeavour to lower her, and I gave orders to unhook the tackles and get her all cleared, so that she might float off the dock—there were a number of people in her; this had already been done; I could not be sure whether the whole of this order had been executed before I was washed off the bridge; the ship bad gone down so far that the bridge was submerged—I found myself on the fore part of the deck—I was washed over the fore part of the bridge on to the forepart of the deck—I scrambled up to the bows, the ship was then lying so that her deck was a good inclined plane—I looked round and saw that the starboard lifeboat was bottom upwards—I then looked around to see what assistance was near us, and I saw the Franconia steaming away—I saw the barque Queen of Nations—I did not know then that it was the Queen of Nations, but I saw a barque, I saw a Deal lugger and a tug boat—at this moment the vessel seemed to me to be going down entirely and not being much of a swimmer I took a plank under my arm and jumped overboard—as I floated beyond the ship I saw two ladies in the water holding on to a rope that was attached to the ship; with a little assistance from me they left the rope and joined me holding the plank; one of the ladies seemed very much exhausted and held on only a few minutes, and then she dropped off and sank—the other lady remained on the plank for nearly half an hour with me, I was talking to her, I knew her by her face; I knew who she was, a lady named Tubbs, I think; I had been introduced to her the afternoon previous; I think I knew her very well by face, but I could not remember the name until I saw her likeness after coming on shore and then I recognised her, it was the same Mrs. Tubbs—I helped her and encouraged her and tried to keep her mouth shut, she was calling for help and praying, and calling on her children, and seemed to be swallowing a great deal of water, and at last she let go the plank; I got her by the shoulder and pulled her towards me again, I saw that her face was lying under water, I lifted it up and tried to hold her, and I did, I think, for a minute or two, but I was getting so exhausted myself and I thought she was dead that I had to let her go—I was. ultimately picked up by the Deal lugger Early Morn—I had been in the water about forty minutes, as near as I can judge—we were about 2 miles from Dover Pier when my vessel was struck by the Franconia and about 2 1/4 miles from the land—the tonnage of my vessel was 1,254 nett register and 1950 gross register.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT PARRY. We were a little over half a mile, I think, from Dover Pier, when we stopped to land the pilot, he landed on our port side, we were off the pier a little more than ten minutes before we started again on our course, the head of the Admiralty Pier, is about S S E, I think—while we were waiting there we were pushed further towards the cast by the wind and tide—the tide was flowing about E S E—

we were about a mile east of the pier when we started on our course for the Channel, perhaps rather more—the head of our vessel was then nearly south, a little to the east of south—I first saw the Franconia, just previous to starting, but took no particular notice of her then—I first began to take particular notice of her as soon as I had given the order to full speed ahead; I judged her then to be about 3 miles off, or between 3 or 4; I really could not judge the distance correctly, but that was the idea I formed at the time, I think—she was then taking her course down Channel, I think that would be WSW, (I was steering S W by S,) that was her right course; she never altered her course at all that I noticed; she appeared to come on the same course until just previous to the collision—I had her in sight the whole of the time, now and again, I was watching her, coming along, of course I had to look out ahead of my ship, not astern—the only thing I did, was to port my helm, half a point before the collision—I say that the Franconia was a following vessel—I was not crossing her bows—had our courses been parallel we could not have crossed, but they were not parallel, and therefore at one time either one vessel or the other must have crossed; I don't say I would have gone across her bows, she might have gone across mine, she appeared to me to be going that way—the captain standing on the bridge of the Franconia, might have formed reasonably the judgment that we were coming across his bows—the lines were so nearly parallel, and the Franconia's bows being on our stern, I naturally concluded seeing that she was coming after, that she was a following vessel, also a crossing vessel, in the sense that at some point our courses must have crossed—she might also naturally conclude that we were a crossing vessel—I judged she was about quarter of a mile distant when she put her helm to port—if she had put her helm hard to port half mile, she would have gone under our stern—she struck us about 60 feet from our stern, I am not sure—it was a question of 60 feet, I suppose whether she came into collision with us or not, when her helm was ported—had she been a little further off it would have been easier for her to have ported; she ought to have ported a little sooner than she did, perhaps she could have done it safely, 300 or 400 yards sooner—I did not see the captain of the Franconia wave us to port; I am not aware that any one on our vessel did see him; I have not heard of it from any of our own people; I have heard it said in the other Court, on the other side—we were 1 1/4 miles from the Admiralty Pier when the collision took place, nearly 2 1/2 miles, I am not sure of the distance, I don't think it would be 2 1/2 miles—I intended to have gone out about 5 miles in order to get an offing—in the state of the weather that day I considered it not my duty to go only half a mile from the Admiralty Pier, and then take the course for the Channel W S W—the weather was moderate, there was nothing in the way previous to the collision, it had been raining—it was perfectly clear at the time of the collison—we could have steered out half a mile, and then taken a course straight down channel, but that would have taken us very close to the land—the Franconia was going straight down channel—I say she was going more rapidly than we were, because I saw her approaching us so quickly—I did not get out of her way and turn down channel, because article 17 of the rules of the road at sea, says, that the vessel who is ahead or who is on the starboard side of another one must keep her course, and the other one must keep out of her way—I think articles 14 and 17 refer to that—I am not allowed to keep clear of her, I should have done

wrong had I gone away, moreover I believed that she was the vessel that had to keep out of the way, and I thought she would—our full speed is nine knots, the Franconia appeared to be going at a greater rate, of course, I could not positively tell—it would take us some little time to obtain the speed of nine knots, although the engines started full speed, we were going nine knots for about sixteen minutes. (Rule 17 was read by Counsel: "A vessel overtaking any other vessel shall keep out of the way of the said last mentioned vessel.") The Strathclyde could not in some sense he said to be an overtaking vessel—our stern was beyond her bow; we were ahead of her—it was a question of who was crossing the bows—we would have crossed, but whether she would have crossed us or we her was a question relating to speed; it was a question which would cross the bows of the other first—I am quite familiar with article 16, which says: "A steam ship when approaching another ship so as to. involve risk of collision, shall slacken her speed, or if necessary stop and reverse"—I did not slacken and reverse, because I was not the overtaking ship—that was my only reason, it was not my duty to do it I say, and at the same time had I done it the collision would have occurred—when I saw that the collision was inevitable, then the rules tell me to do something to prevent it; that is my judgment—when I saw that the collision was certain I did try to avoid it, not previous—when I saw it was certain I attempted to avoid it—if other ships had been coming in the same course as the Franconia, I must have crossed them, either at the bow or the stern—I know that it is usual for vessels of our description to go out more than a mile—I mean a large ship with passengers on board—I am aware that the bearing of the wreck of the Strathclythe is S S E of the Admiralty pier—I am aware of articles 19 and '20. (Read: "In obeying and construing these rules, due regard must he had to all dangers of navigation, and due regard must also he had to any special circumstances which may exist in particular cases rendering a departure from the above rules necessary in order to avoid immediate danger." "Nothing in these rules shall exonerate any ship or owner, or master or crew thereof from the consequences of any neglect to carry any lights or signals, or any precaution which may be requisite by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case.") I consider those two rules in the light of controlling rules of the others—they give a large discretion to the captain of a ship in the management of his vessel when he sees danger; at the point of danger I did do something.

Re-examined by THE SOLICITOR-GENERAL. Those articles are only provisoes in certain cases—Article 18 says "By the above rules one £two ships is to keep out of the way, the other shall keep her course, subject to the qualifycation contained in the following articles"—my strict rule would have been to keep my course and not alter it at all till I saw danger, but when I saw danger of collision I did alter my course by half a point, so that I did as far as I could follow that exceptional rule (Article 14 again read)—I never had the Franconia on my starboard side—I had not the slightest reason to sup-pose that the Franconia would not act according to these rules, and if she had there would have been no collision—it was not a proper course to run it so fine as to port within 400 feet, not when there was plenty of room—as a matter of fact I was going down Channel—had we been going right across to Calais we should have been going almost at right angles to the course of the Franconia: he would still, in my opinion, have been a following vessel, his bow was astern of us, on our quarter—when I first saw him he was between 3

and 4 miles east of us; the course of both of us was west, with a modicum of south, towards the S W; we were both coming from the east—my reason for going out 5 miles was that it had been raining previously, about 2 o'clock in the afternoon, and the fog had hung about the high lands, and I thought it was going to be foggy that night; the wind was westerly, and I knew that this west wind would be bringing a number of sailing ships up Channel towards Dungeness for pilots, where the pilots are put on board—1 should have to clear Dungeness—having landed my pilot I wanted no further communication with the shore, and therefore I thought it was best to go outside the track of the vessels coming up seeking pilots at Dungeness, and I would have passed Dungeness between 7 and 8 miles off—it did become foggy that night, before dark—I consider it was the proper course to take in coming out that way, and I think it was the prudent course, considering the number of lives I had under my charge, that I ought to have taken.

By MR. SERJEANT PARRY. I cannot from memory tell you the distance from Dover Pier to the Barne Sand, I can measure it with a pair of com-passes (after measuring), it bears south, and the distance is 6 1/2 miles, as near as possible to the N E.

By THE SOLICITOR-GENERAL. There is a light on the S W of the Barne Sand—if I had kept on my course of 5 miles, allowing for the tide that was running against me, it would have left me 3 miles away from the Barne Sand, and I should not have come near the N E bay—by the course I was steering I was coming more out to the lightship, which is a considerable distance further from the pier head than the bay—when I had got to the 5 miles I should have altered my course down channel, taking the Red sand light as my mark, which is about 11 1/2 miles from Dungeness—I was making a straight line for about 6 miles off Dungeness.

By THE JUTY. We started full speed from Dover Pier, but it was perhaps four or five minutes before she got her proper full speed on—when I read the name of Franconia on her bows I saw no one on the forecastle—I read the name with the naked eye—she had not a raised forecastle, I should say she was a flushed deck ship with rails, no bulwarks.

EDWARD WEATHERDON . I live in Cumberland Street, Pimlico—I hold an appointment in the East Indian Railway—I was a passenger on board the Strathclyde, going to Bombay in the duties of my appointment—I remember the vessel landing the pilot and then starting again on her course—I was standing with my back to the deck-house on the port side of the vessel, talking to the doctor of the ship, facing the stern—there was a boat near me on the port side which rather interfered with my view—the doctor called my attention to the Franconia as it was approaching—she was on our port side, overlapping the stern of our vessel, when I first saw her; I mean her bow had got past the stern of our vessel—she was coming very rapidly—I did not see her earlier, my attention was not drawn to her until that moment—I could not state positively how far on our port quarter the bow of the Fran-conia would be, I am not accustomed to judge distances by sea—I could not read the name on her bow, I am short-sighted—I did not see anybody on the fore part of the vessel; I could have seen if there had been anybody there—when I first saw her I could not see any one on her, looked at it from under our port quarter boat, and therefore I could not see the deck—when my attention was directed to her I ran forward to get clear of our boat and have a clear view of the approaching vessel—I stood on deck and had a clear view, and I saw the Franconia almost immediately turn sharp round and run into

Us; she turned sharp round to the right, bringing her bows in the direction of our vessel—I did not see anybody on the forepart of the Franconia at that moment; to the best of my belief there was not anybody—the collision occurred almost immediately afterwards, there was a terrible shock, I was thrown off my legs by it—I did not notice the hole that was made by the Franconia in the side of our vessel—I stood looking at the vessel for some moments, and then ran up the rigging; several persons crowded up the rigging—I slid down almost immediately, as the vessels were separating, and ran down the companion to my cabin and got my belt and put it on; I then came on deck and went on the bridge—I got into the lifeboat for a short time—I did not hear the captain, speak, a lady spoke, and then I came out and saw others come out also—I saw the port lifeboat lowered, I did not see it swamped—I walked across the deck and got into the starboard lifeboat—then I noticed that the stern of our vessel went down, and almost immediately afterwards there was a puff of steam went up close by me and there was a cry that the boilers would burst, and I then looked round and saw the Franconia steaming away in the distance towards the land on our starboard quarter—shortly after that our vessel went down and the starboard lifeboat was capsized—the first thing I can remember after being capsized was being under the boat; I managed to get clear of it, and when I came to the surface I caught hold of a hencoop that was floating by and by means of that was picked up by a boat called the Brave Nelson of Deal—I did not see a number of people in the water; just before I was capsized I noticed Captain Beckett pass by me, he was in the water—a few seconds elapsed between the Franconia turning sharp round and the collision; it is difficult to say, but not more than a few seconds.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT PARRY. I saw the bows of the Franconid stove in; I could not say that I saw the sea rushing in, but I saw a fissure, I should describe it as a long, narrow hole; the sea must have been entering, I suppose; I did not see right through the fissure, I saw that the plate was broken, I saw the jagged ends—I only saw it for a few seconds, I stood and watched the Franconia back out of us.

Re-examined by THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL. The Franconia was an iron vessel, and I believe the Stratchclyde also, but I could not say from my own knowledge.

JOHN BEVAN . I was chief officer of the Strathclyde—I have been at sea fourteen years—I have been six years in the same employment—the Strathdyde was an iron vessel—on the afternoon, of 17th February, I was on the bridge with the captain—I saw the Franconia about two miles astern—my attention was drawn to her by my captain; I looked at her through a glass; she appeared to be going much faster than we were—she overtook us—we were steering S W by S—I did not see her name on the bows—she came up with us very close until within about a quarter of a mile of us, her bow overlapping over stern—my captain thought she was coming rather close and altered the course half a point; looking at her again she was coming stem into us hard round on her port helm; she struck us abaft the engine-room bulk head, about 60 or 70 feet from the stem—we had been going full speed, there was plenty of sea way when she struck us—before she struck us the order was given by my captain to port and hard a port; that was obeyed, I went to the helm myself to assist in heaving over, there were two quartermasters at the wheel—our helm is on the bridge—the Franconia struck us almost immediately after the order was given—

considering that we were going 9 or 9 1/2 knots, the Franconia must have been going at least 11—I did not see any change in her speed as she approached us—she struck us more than once; she first struck us and then rebounded; she must have done so—she was towering above us, very much higher, when she was in collision with us—I took a momentary glance at the damage done to our vessel, and saw a tremendous gash in our ship—I saw others rushing up the rigging, and I rushed up also and got on board the Franconia, others did the same, the rigging was crowded—when I got on board the Franconia, I rushed along the deck and shouted "boats" pointing to them to everybody I met—I did not see the defendant at that time. I did afterwards, while we were working at the starboard boat to try and get it out, other persons on board the Franconia worked at it afterwards, they were some of my own men—I heard an exclamation in English, "My God, my poor shipmates", I looked up and saw my ship sinking, and then I ran to the bridge—it was George Mclntyre, who made the exclamation—when I went on to the bridge I saw the defendant and another man who proved to be the English pilot—I stood between them and pointed to my ship and begged them to go back to her—I said "Go to my ship, go back to my ship," pointing to her—she must have been half a mile off then as near as I could judge—the Franconia had been going on towards Dover, while I was on board—the English pilot replied, "My dear man we are sinking too"—I could not say whether the defendant was there then, he was standing there, walking across the bridge, the Franconia appeared to be going pretty fast in the water; I said various things to the defendant at different intervals, nothing further about our ship that I remember—I saw her sink, that could not be ten minutes after she was struck—none of the boats of the Franconia were lowered into the water—she was sounded, after a suggestion made by myself to sound her; I suggested to the captain that soundings should be taken—I asked him if she was making water—he told me the fore compartment was full—some one came to the bridge and received orders from the captain to sound her and a report was brought back sometime after that she was making no water—that was about twenty minutes or half an hour after the collision; she did not at any time appear to be sinking—we went on to Dover Bay—a man came on board in a row boat from the shore—all the Franconia boats, but two or three were swung outside ready, level with the ship's rail—the Franconia went to the Downs, before she stopped—there would be a difficulty in lowering boats with a vessel going through the water; if she had stopped there would have been no difficulty whatever in lowering boats.

Cross-examined by MR. COHEN. I did not see the Franconia when she was lying off the Admiralty Pier—I saw her at about 2 miles distance as near as I could judge—I looked at her occasionally; I did not watch her particularly—I may have looked at her more than once when I was by the side of the captain, I don't remember—I presume our helm was ported half a point because the Franconia was coming near us; I dare say that was the reason, I believe it to have been the reason—that was the only thing that was done on board our ship before the collision—we were going full speed, that is from 8 1/2 to 9 knots—when the collision took place I received no orders from anyone to go on board the Franconia—it was the impulse of the moment, seeing others rush to the rigging; I thought the Franconia would go right over our ship—I got from the rigging over her rail—I saw no ropes hanging from the Franconia, I was too much excited

to see any at that moment—I was doubtless in a state of considerable excitement—I went to the starboard boat of the Franconia, and I and the crew of the Franconia, and some of our own men were trying to lower the boat; I say our vessel sunk ten minutes after the collision; I could not estimate the time then, it may have been seven minutes, I would not be positive to a few minutes—I could not say how long it was after the collision that I suggested to the defendant that soundings should be taken; it, was sometime shortly after I got on the bridge; it was after the Strathclyde had sunk—I am not aware that any soundings were taken till after she had sunk—I will not undertake to say that the captain did not immediately after the collision give orders to the carpenter to take soundings, it was after our vessel had sunk that I heard the report that the fore compartmeat was full of water; I don't know how long after; I could not be positive to a few minutes how long after the collision it was that I heard the report that the Franconia was not making water, it may have been half an hour, and it may not; it may have been three-quarters of an hour, or it may have been half an hour; I could not judge to a few minutes; I could not account for time at that time.

Re-examined by THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL. I believe the Franconia was in compartments—the first report was that the front compartment had water in it—at the time the report came that she was making no water I think we had reached Dover—at the time the order was given for our vessel to port half a point the bow of the Franconia was beyond our stern, she was coming closer—a further order was given by my captain to port, and then hard a port—that order was given' and obeyed before the collision actually took place—I don't think there was sufficient time for her to answer her. helm—the order was given instantaneously, almost immediately before the collision took place—I do not know whether there were any other soundings on board the Franconia besides the two I have spoken of.

ROBERT JOHN JARMAN . I was a quarter-master of the Strathclyde—I was at the wheel after she left Dover—soon after we left; the captain gave the course S W by S and soon after S W half S—when that alteration was made the Franconia was almost abeam of us, a little abaft the port beam—I should say she was a quarter of a mile from us, perhaps less, perhaps more—the Franconia was going faster than we were—as far as I know our vessel kept on the same speed between the change of course and the time of the collision—the Franconia came gradually nearer and nearer from the time I first saw her—I could not say how long before the collision I noticed her bow overlapping our stern—the next thing I saw was that she was heading quite in for us—she appeared to have altered her course—the captain thereupon gave orders to port and hard a port—we put it over as quickly as we could—the collision took place a very short time indeed after that order was given, we had answered our port helm about a point—the second blow followed shortly after the first—an attempt was then made to get out the boats—I was washed off the bridge into the water, and was ultimately picked up by the Early Morn lugger.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT PARRY. I cannot say within what time of the collision the order was given to put her SW half S; it was a minute—I should be inclined to say it was more—I did not bear the captain examined—the order to port half a point is the same as S W half S—I believe he said port, and then SW half S—I heard that, I was at the helm—the first I saw of the Franconia was when we lay in Dover—she

appeared to me to be coming down channel—I saw her now and again until the collision, that was I should think twenty-five minutes—almost all our hands were forward—I don't know that there was not a special look out, and I don't know that there was—I and Short were at the helm—I should say we were going between 8 and 9 knots; I should not think it was 9 1/2—I should think it would be rather under 9 than over—I did not see the hole in the Franconia's bows at the time—I have seen it since, in the Victoria dock, not in dry dock—I did not see any steam tug either before or after the collision, nor any boats—I saw a barque—I believe it was the Queen of Nations.

Re-examined by THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL. We were lying off Dover when I first saw the Franconia, she was coming from the east, down channel—I know nothing about its being her regular course; I simply saw her, she was coming at a good speed—the bows of the Franconia were a little abaft our beam when the order to port was given, she was overlapping our stem—I should say she was then about a quarter of a mile off I should think—it was very short time after the order to SW half S that I saw the Franconia turning directly on us, then the order was directly, port, hard-a-port—our vessel answered her helm very quick indeed—I noticed that through the day; I had plenty of chance of ascertaining that—she had commenced to answer her helm about a point before the collision, after the order to port and hard a port.

LUKE SHORT . I was second quarter-master of the Strathclyde—just after we started from Dover, when we had left the pilot I first perceived the Franconia, she was on our port quarter, and 1 1/2 miles off—I was with the last witness Jarman, at the wheel—we steered SW by S—I remember Captain Eaton altering the course half a point—the Franconia was then nearly abeam—the captain next gave the order to port, hard-a-port—we obeyed that order and the vessel had answered her helm before the collision—I think the Franconia had lessened speed before she struck us—she had altered her course between seven or eight points to starboard, porting her helm so that her head came round to starboard—she struck as about the after part of the bridge and I left the wheel—she then seemed to back off and came back and struck us a second time—in clearing off the second time she struck the port-quarter boat which I was clearing away ready to lower—the effect of that was to knock me into the water—I saw a line over my head from the Franconia and held on to it till a bow was put over for me to get into, and I did so—the Franconia continued backing off and stopped, and then she went off—I was busy with the boats, and afterwards I found she was some distance away and the Slrathclyde sank; my attention was fixed on the boats when I got on board the Francoina and I found the Strathclyde sinking, and then we found there was about a mile distance between the two vessels—the Franconia's engines were going and her bow was to the land.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT PARRY. The Franconia was about two lengths from us, as near as I could judge, when the order was given to port the Strathclyde—her stem was then overlapping our midships; she was then abeam of us—I had seen the Franconia about ten minutes from the first—I saw a hole in the Franconia's bows—I did not see any ropes thrown over, I saw one rope when I came to the surface—I did not get up by that rope, another rope was thrown—I did not see three boats lowered within 5 or 6 feet of the water—I saw the starting, I do not think she was a mile off—

the Strathclyde had then sunk—I cannot tell where those on board of the tug were, or whether they must have seen the collision—I had been on board the Strathclyde four days—I had not sailed in her before.

GEORGE CROKER . I was an able seaman on board the Strathclyde—I was on deck before the collision and noticed the Franconia first on our port quarter about 2 or 3 ship's lengths from us—I was standing forwards, and all at once 1 saw her, as she must have done, port her helm, and stand on to it—she struck us somewhere near the main rigging—I then ran aft, the rigging was crowded, and I saw that there was no chance—a line was hanging over, there was a crowd of people; a lady passenger called to me, she wished to be made fast to the line—I saw that my only chance was to jump overboard, and was pulled on board the Franconia, and when I got on board I told them that Luke Short was hanging there and they pulled him up'; I told them that no attempt had been made to lower any boats; we both went aft, and when we were near the bridge I heard the mate of our vessel call out "Is there any Englishman here who will assist me in getting the boats"—I assisted to get the boats out and cut the lashings, but no boat was lowered—the Franconia steamed away—I noticed no difference in her speed before she struck us—I cannot say whether she was sounded when I was on board of her, but I saw the carpenter with a sounding rod in his hand about a minute before I. got on board—the Franconia continued to go on till we got to Dover Bay—I went with her to the Downs, but not to London.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT PARRY. I saw the hole in the Franconia—my firm impression when I found myself hanging there was that she was in danger—it was a serious hole, as far as I could judge at the time—she went away at about half speed—I have been at sea sixteen or seventeen years—I did not hear an order given by the captain to sound the well—I heard no statement by the carpenter or any one that the forehold was full of water—I heard no order given to shore up the bulkhead—I was not very much alarmed—my attention was carefully directed to lowering the boats—the crew were not assisting us—the first boat was" a steam launch; that would not have been of much use—they did not assist us at the second boat, there was no reason for that that I know of—the second boat had a hole in her—the third boat they lowered themselves some time afterwards within 5 or 6 feet of the water—I did not see any ropes thrown over the side—a rope was hanging, and I got in by it—I did not hear the captain of the Franconia the moment after the collision give orders to lower the boats—I did not see the English pilot on board—I heard nothing he said—I did not hear him say to the captain "My God, get on shore as soon as you can, we are sinking"—in order to lower a boat thoroughly it is necessary to stop the engines—the Franconia's engines were not stopped after I was on board, they may have been eased off Dover—she was going at half speed—I saw a steamtug three-quarters of a mile or a mile away, and I should say that those on board of her must have seen the collision—the tug came near to the Franconia, but that was half an hour afterwards; she went inside first—she did not bear down to help—she afterwards came alongside the Franconia—I did not see any other luggers or boats about that might have helped—the tug was not very large, she would only tow a small class of vessels—if she had come down alongside the Strathclyde she could have saved many lives; I think a great deal of help might have been given—I could not judge on board the Franconia whether there was a general fear and alarm that she would sink—I did not hear any explanation the pilot made, or anybody else

—I did not know at the time that the bulkhead required shoring, and was shored as she went to Dover.

Re-examined. After I went on board I went so far as to get the assistance of somebody to lower the boats—we may have been a quarter of a mile from the Strathclyde, at that time—there was nothing so far as I know to prevent the boats being lowered at that time—between that time and the time we got to Dover, the Franconia was not stopped at all—some of the crew came to get the third and fourth boats lowered—we were then from three-quarters of a mile to a mile from the Strathclyde, she was then sinking, she was stern down, her bows were up, and her stern under water—we had increased our distance half a mile at that time—the tug boat was then nearer to us than to the Strathclyde, and about the same distance from the land as we were, and about the same distance from the Strathclyde as we were—she had a mud lighter in tow and was making out seawards with it—we left the Franconia at the Downs, between 6 and 7 o'clock—from the time I got on board of her to the time I got off, I saw no reason to suppose that she was on the point of sinking—none of the boats were ever actually lowered to the water.

ALEXANDER HOLLAND . I was third engineer of the Strathclyde—I was in the engine-room in charge of the engine at the time of the collision—the engines after leaving Dover were going about fifty revolutions—the Strath-clyde's usual speed averaged 9 knots—with the sea that was on at the time of the collision, I should say that she was going about 9 knots through the water, but not that past the land, it would depend upon how the tide was and the wind—I heart a crash and sent an engineer on deck to see what was the matter, and almost immediately the telegraph ran to "Stop her"—at the time of the collision the engines were just slowed like, backed, I should suppose that was caused by the helm being put hard over—that would "break" the engines—I did not feel the second crash—I stopped the engines and eased the safety valve—there was an escape of steam and I gave orders to the furnace men to open the stoke house doors—I then jumped into the stokehole to see if there was any water, because I heard a rush of water and then I knew it was in the hold, and I made for the deck to see what was wrong—the water was then just lapping over her stern, and the second engineer and I lowered the port quarter boat, but the water at that time was up to our uncles—we tried to lower the boat but it sank, it was smashed—I went down with the vessel on the bridge, and 1 was the hast man who was picked up—I had a hasty glance of the Franconia, she was nearer on our port quarter than to starboard—I should not like to judge how far off she was when our vessel went down, because it was a hasty glance just before she went down—I could not see people on her deck—I should not like to give an estimate of her distance—at the time I was in the water there were plenty of people floating there, for at least twenty minutes after the accident.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT PARRY. I saw no tug—we were going about 3 short of full speed of course, but it was nothing to speak of—we were going full speed at the time of the collision; which is about 9 knots—I was examined at the inquest at Poplar—I did say there "Sometimes her speed was 9 to 9 1/2 knots;" but the average was 9 through the water.

STEPHEN BECKETT . I am a captain in the Brigade Staff Corps—I was-a passenger on board the Strathclyde—I remember stopping at Dover to land the pilot—my attention was first called to the Franconia after we had seen

the Calais Mail come up; we saw the Franconia and she neared us, and immediately before the collision she overlapped us, and then turned round and ran into us—I was on deck when the Strathclyde was struck, and for some time before—I was standing by the companion ladder just before she struck—I saw her distinctly when she altered her course; there was nothing to intercept my view between her and the collison—after she had struck us she backed out a little and then struck again, and the second time she ripped along the side and then forged past the stern, and after she got a little distance she turned her head and steamed away from us—I got on some floating substance and was picked up by the Early Morn—I was in the water thirty or forty minutes, and saw several people floating about.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT PARRY. I was on deck all the time after lunch until the Franconia struck us—I saw the Franconia all along, except for a moment, when I ran down to the cabin to see my wife and found her asleep, and came up—before the collision some. of the passengers on deck remarked "If that vessel goes on in the course she is, and we keep on our coarse, she will run into us"—I said "Oh, no, she is going so much quicker she will get ahead of" us and get into Dover"—when the collision occurred we were not going in a slanting direction, we were going perfectly straight—I think the Straihclyde was going straight ahead, because I saw the swell of the ocean—the Franconia was coming diagonally at about an angle of 45°—I do not know anything about going up channel or down channel, but I know that after putting out the pilot we appeared to have gone straight ahead, without turning—I suppose Captain Eaton was on the bridge at the time that observation was made, he was not on deck—I did not look to see whether he was on the bridge, I was not noticing—he did not hear the remark—I was on the left side by the companion' ladder, which leads down to the saloon, not up to the bridge.

Re-examined. When I heard those words I thought the vessel behind us was going into Dover—I found my wife on a spar and held her and saved her.

WILLIAM GEORGE BODECKER . I was chief steward of the Strathclyde—I was on deck about three minutes before the collision and saw the Franconia on the port beam, about 1,000ft. off; about three ship's lengths, going parallel to us—she seemed to port her helm suddenly, and came right into us, and struck us by way of the after hatchway and engine-room, and again abaft the first blow—she then went away—I think she was going full speed when she struck us—the captain of the Strathclyde was on the bridge at the time—I heard orders given to port the helm, and immediately afterwards hard a port, and the Franconia struck us almost instantaneously—I got on the bridge and assisted in launching the lifeboat, which I believed was carried down by the suction—I went down with the vessel and was picked up by the Early Morn, after floating for about forty minutes—I saw people floating about.

Cross-examined by MR. COHEN. Our vessel sank about five or six minutes after the collision—I saw a very large hole in the Franconia.

ARCHIBALD DONALD (re-examined). I was on my barque but did not see the two vessels come into collision—when I first saw them, the Franconia was standing towards Dover, and she was to appearance about 100 yards from the Strathdyde which I saw was gradually sinking by the stern and I ordered the helm to be put hard up and to get into the boat, which was not to bow lowered but after going pretty close I ordered the boat to be lowered

when I first saw the Franconia she was going towards Dover on a straight course as far as I could judge—I saw my boat pick up three ladies, and saw the Strathclyde go down; that was about ten minutes after what I first saw—the Franconia had then got away from the Strathclyde about a quarter to half a mile—I was I think about half a mile from the Franconia—am of the Deal boats was also about—she was bringing a pilot from Dover and I believe she belonged to a man on board my barque—that was the only boat I saw at that time but I saw two more boats afterwards.

Cross-examined. I did not see the Franconia or the Strathclyde before the collision—I was off the pier, off Dover—I did not see her go from the pier southward—I rendered every assistance I could—I saw a steamtug with a punt 2 miles or 2 1/2 miles off.

HENRY THOMAS ACTON . I am a Channel pilot and boatman—on 17th February, I was on board the Queen of Nations which was lying to, waiting for a pilot on the west of Shakspeare's Cliff and about a couple of miles I should judge, from Dover pier—my boat is called the Brave Nelson, and I had come out in her to the Queen of Nations—mine is a pilot boat—I saw the Strathclyde start from Dover Bay and saw the course she steered—I judge that when she started she was standing S S W—there was a moderate breeze, it had been blowing all the morning—I could see, I judge, 6 or 7 miles—I first saw the Franconia about 3 miles away to the eastward; she might be a couple of miles from the Strathclyde then—the Franconia appeared to me to be going a great deal faster then the Strathclyde was—I did not see them go into collision but I saw the Franconia backing her stem from' the Strathclyde—I judge that I saw both vessels about three minutes before the collision—I can not say whether if the Franconia had star boarded her helm at that time there would have been any collision; I was rather too far off—after the collision I saw the Franconia backing out, she seemed to lay there about three minutes and then she ported her helm and steamed away into Dover—at the time of the collision the tugboat was close off the Admiralty Pier; I mean near to the pier—there was a breeze in the morning but there was no sea to prevent the lowering of boats.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT PARRT. I have known the port of Dover twelve years—I saw the Early Morn and the boat Cruiser and my boat, the Brave Nelson, and the ship's boat attempt to render assistance to the Strathclyde—I do not think it was quite high water—the Strathclyde's course as she came out from Dover was about S S W; that is not a usual course on a flood tide; the usual course on a flood tide is S W by W; the proper course is to Dungeness S of W—the Strathclyde and the Franconia were both going to pass Dungeness—I understand these matters thoroughly—if I had been in command of the Strathclyde I should have gone out nearly close to the pier and then shaped my course to Dungeness Point—the tide from the Admiralty Pier would set her off a good piece before she did start.

Q. Then she would not have to go so far out? A. Well, every captain pleases himself—the Strathclyde was pushed out by the tide, and I think she might have taken her course direct for Dungeness with safety—she would not go out 4 or 5 miles to do so, nor 2 or 3.

Re-examined. Wind and fog come on at night—a man would keep out and avoid Dungeness as much as he could—it is not uncommon for vessels to come looking for pilots up to Dungeness—that is the ordinary course that vessels take up Channel to Dungeness looking for pilots—I cannot say whether by keeping out to sea you would avoid them.

EDWARD HANGER . I am master of the Early Morn, a Deal lugger—I was examined before the Coroner at Deal and Poplar—on 17th February I had been cruising with my lugger all day, and at 3.30 or 3.35 p.m. I saw the Franconia and the Strathclyde coming down Channel towards us as we were running up—I saw both vessels keeping down and all of a sudden the Fran-conia turned round on her port helm, and I saw them both strike, and the Strathclyde sinking—the Franconia seemed to turn round 5 or 6 points, but I was not looking at the compass at the time—I saw the Strathclyde afterwards sinking, and then made the best of my way towards her—she was coming in towards the land then—I picked up twenty-three men and women—all but four or five in the ship's boats were floating about in the water—afterwards I made the best of my way to Deal with the persons I had on board.

Cross-examined by MR. COHEN. I was about 1 mile off the Franconia when I saw her; she bore about ESE or SE and by E from me, as near as I could judge—she might be a little more or a little under a mile; about a mile is as near as I could get at it—I was examined at Poplar—I might have said she was a little over a mile from me—I saw her come round all of a sudden—it was a very short time before the collision that she ported her helm, a minute it might be—she appeared to come round 5 or 6 points all on a sudden—I went direct to the Strathclyde—I caught a glimpse of the tug Palmerston before the collision, and that was all, no, it must have been about the same time—she was just clear of Dover Pier when I saw her—that is all I saw of her; she had her head off, but whether she was under steam or not I could not say—I did not notice her after the collision—it would take a steamtug perhaps a quarter of an hour to go from Dover Pier to the place of the wreck—she had cast off the lighter—the weather was clear at that time, there was no fog; it had been raining and dirty in the morning—it was fine weather at the time of the collision; the sea. was not heavy;. the weather was clear.

ALFRED REDSTALL . I live at 86, Lower Street, North End, Deal—I am a boatman, and work on the Early Morn lighter, on the day of the collision I was homeward bound—I noticed two sceamers coming down Channel, they might have been 3 miles apart when we first saw them—I found one of them afterwards was the Franconia—when I first saw her she was making her course S W and by W to the best of my knowledge—the other vessel appeared to be making about the same, near to one another—the Franconia ported her helm, and her head came in a point—she ported to the best of my knowledge from 5 to 6 points; I did not see what the effect of that was—the Strathclyde was between us and the other—after this porting the vessels both appeared to me to be stopped—we made for them as quickly as possible—on our road to the Strathclyde the Franconia passed us to the westward, she was then about a couple of lengths from the Strathdyde—when we got up the Strathclyde had gone down, and we took up twenty-three men and one woman.

Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT PARRY. I saw the tug, I believe called the Palmerston—we got up to the place of the wreck, and did all we possibly could—as to the tug coming up to save more lives I should think there was nothing impossible—she could have come up after us in about three or four minutes according to my judgment—she was not an overlarge tug—a well-known handy tug—she might have come up quickly and saved more lives—I could not form any idea of what she was doing at the time—

we were the first boat there—the ships were about three miles apart when 1 first saw the Franconia—at that time the weather was perfectly clear—the sea was moderate and so was the wind—from the place where the collision took place we could see the town of Dover, and the houses quite plainly with the naked eye—she was rather abreast of the pier if at all—I noticed the Franconia porting her helm—I should think it was about two or three minutes before the collision, or it might have been four minutes, I could not say to a minute or two exactly—she was going a course S W by W to the best of my judgment.

Re-examined by the Solicitor-General. I did not time it by a watch—I am only speaking to the best of my judgment—from where the steamer lay they could see any part of Dover—we could see the Strathclyde very plain—we were close to her—we could see half across the Channel.

WILLIAM CUSHNEY . I live at Walmer, I am the master of the lugger Brave Nelson—on Thursday, 17th February, I went from the Queen of Nations, to fetch a pilot from Dover—just before getting there I saw the Strathclyde steaming from Dover Pier—she was steaming in a south westerly direction—I suppose she was steaming out in order to get into a fairway—I saw the Franconia at the same time steaming down in a westerly direction—when I first saw them I should think the Franconia was about two miles from the Strathclyde—we did not actually see the two vessels strike, but we saw them together; apparently in collision—we saw the Franconia come clear off—I saw the other steamer go down, and the Franconia steaming towards Dover—our boat was ashore at the Admirably Pier, waiting for the pilots that were coming there, we immediately made sail and proceeded towards the wreck—it was not more than a quarter of an hour between the time we saw the collision, and when we got to the wreck—we passed near the Franconia, as we were going, as near as 200 or 300 yards—I think we were then about three-quarters of a mile off the land—when we got to the wreck we found the Early Morn there, and we assisted in picking up the bodies.

Cross-examined by MR. COHEN. The bows of the Franconia were stove in, seriously damaged—there was a hole which you could see right through—you could not see right through into the fore compartment—you could see right through the bows—at the time of the collision the ships were nearly abreast of Dover Pier—we were a little over 2 miles off, it might be 2 1/2—I saw the tug Palmerston; she is a well-known, very handy tug; that tug could have got to the Strathclyde before us; she could have been a great deal of use and saved a great many persons—I saw the Franconia after the collision; she was steaming in towards Dover—she was going slowly—the weather was not foggy at the time of the collision—it was so clear that you could see 4 or 5 miles—there was no sea at all—there had been a heavy sea in the morning, all the forenoon—there was no heavy sea at all at the time of the collision—the flood tide was running; it runs eastwards—the hole in the Franconia's bows was about 4 or 5 feet above the water line.

THOMAS BLACK . I am Superintendent of the Peninsular and Oriental boats—I examined the Franconia after her arrival in London—I do not remember the exact date—it was one of the days of the inquest at Poplar—I was examined as a witness there—I examined her on behalf of the builder of the vessel—I found that the stem was considerably damaged—part of it gone, and that the bows had been stove in as far as the collision

bulkhead which was 11 ft. abaft the stem, but the bulkhead was sound as far as I could see, with one slight exception, which was a little bulging on the starboard side—I was given to understand she had come down from the Downs to London—her entire length is about 360 ft—she was quite safe going at a moderate rate of speed in fine weather, as far as my judgment goes—there was no imminent danger of sinking as far as I could see—she had another bulkhead as near as I can recollect, about 21 ft. abaft that—it was not water tight—there was one about 39 or 40 ft. abaft that, which was watertight up as far as the lower deck—the first bulkhead was about 21 ft, from the collision bulkhead, and the next about 40 ft—the second was not watertight, because it had a hole in the bottom—I did not see the size of it, the ship was too narrow for me—I did not go down, I was informed by the carpenter that it was 1 1/2 to 3 inches in diameter—I don't think the vessel would have sunk at all from those injuries if she was going slowly; if she had been driving at full speed it is impossible to say how long she would have taken to sink; if the collision bulkhead was sufficiently tight to stand the force of going against the sea she would not fill in the other compartments, and she would not sink at all—supposing it did give way, I should think it would take five or six hours to fill the fore part up to the next watertight compartment—I should doubt whether that would sink her, it would bring her down by the head—the collision bulkhead is made strong for that very purpose—this was very strongly made and well supported.

Cross-examined by MR. COHEN. I did not examine the Franconia at the request of the owners of the Strathclyde—I examined her at the request of the builder—I was in communication with Mr. Gellatly, the solicitor for the owner of the Strathclyde, the morning that I went down to see her, not with the owners—I was about three-quarters of an hour examining her, she was then in the Victoria Dock—I have been in the habit of surveying the Peninsular and Oriental Company's vessels, not as a surveyor, as their superintendent—it is my duty to survey vessels—I have surveyed vessels officially—I said at Poplar that I had not, but I corrected myself before the Court rose, and said I had made a mistake there—I surveyed the Baltimore that is the only vessel I have surveyed outside the company—when I survey the Peninsular and Oriental Company's vessels, I make the reports when they are asked from me; it is not generally asked from me; on special occasions—official surveyors do not accompany me—by official surveyors, I mean gentlemen who profess to be surveyors of vessels—when the Peninsular and Oriental Company's vessels are seriously damaged, as a rule there is official survey, not by me alone—I give them a very partial examination when they come into port, that is all, unless in special cases—when I went on board the Franconia I measured the distances of the bulkheads I have named—I have not got them here, they are at my office—I was not aware until this morning that I was to be brought to give evidence—I came up from Victoria Dock as fast as I could—to the best of my recollection the collision bulkhead was three-eighths of an inch thick; I am not quite certain, it might have been seven-sixteenths of an inch, I don't know—I did not notice the extent to which the plates were puckered—that would be a very good indication of the severity of the blow, possibly the best—I saw that they were, puckered, but I can't say to what extent—the danger of a bulkhead giving way depends entirely upon the severity of the blow—I was not asked to examine the extent to which the plates were puckered, or

whether there was danger of the collision bulkhead giving way; that was not the object 1 had in view in seeing the ship; I looked at it and saw that it had not given way—I have a certain amount of practical experience which would enable me to judge when I see a bulkhead, whether it is strong enough or not, or whether it has given way—I examined the plates on the inside of the bulkhead carefully, and I examined those on the after side as far down as I could see, I could not see any broken—I could not undertake to say whether one was broken—I did not see any danger of the collision bulkhead giving way—I tried to see on the inside, I went down and examined it, as far as I could get, I suppose about 6 ft. off the bottom of the ship—without going down to the bottom you could not for certain ascertain the danger of its giving way—I say as far as I could see there was no danger of its giving way—I have not seen her in dry dock since the collision—I have not been asked to do so—if the collision bulkhead had given way I should say about 350 tons of water would have got into the ship—I will not undertake to say that 600 tons would not have got in—I took no measurement that would enable me to say that only 350 tons would come in, it is a guess—I looked at the plates in the immediate vicinity of the bulkhead—I did not notice any particular damage abaft the collision bulkhead—I am not prepared to swear there was not any—viewing it from the front I should say it would indicate great danger—if I had seen it at the moment, I might, as an experienced captain have feared that the collision bulkhead would hare given way; I might have thought there was imminent danger—I noticed that there was a small shore there—I did not take its dimensions, it struck me from the look of it as being small—I did not observe any shore there above 6 inches thick—I can't say whether there was only one shore, I did not pay any attention to the amount of shoring, if it had been heavily shored I should have observed it—I mean, with heavy baulks of timber—I observed only one shore between one of the frames and the bulkhead—I did not pay any particular attention to it; I will not undertake to swear how many shores there were, or how thick they were—it would have taken about five minutes to put up the small shore I saw—I can't conceive it would take an hour—I have seen a bulkhead shored before, I saw one on board the Baltimore that went on shore at Hastings, about eight years ago—that was the last time I saw a bulkhead shored up; that is the only time I can call to mind—I was examined before the Coroner, at Poplar—I did not hear Mr. Barnard examined—I heard of his having been appointed by the Coroner to examine the vessel, and I saw his examination in the paper the next day—the Second bulkhead was not watertight; I took that from the carpenter—I did not go sufficiently low down to see whether there was a hole or no—I could not get down, I tried—I noticed some iron doors on the lower deck, at the end of one of the bulkheads; those doors were not nearly watertight, so that that bulkhead would not be watertight above the lower deck—the time it would take for the vessel to sink would partly depend upon the quantity of water that would get into her—if I am wrong in my estimate of 350 tons of water getting in from the collision bulkhead giving way, I may be entirely wrong in my estimate of the time it would take to sink the vessel—there is a good deal to be seen in dry dock which cannot be seen when the vessel is not in dry dock—a good deal of valuable information as to the state of a ship is to be obtained from examining the bottom of it—I had no opportunity of properly judging of the state of this ship—I had no opportunity further than the examination 1 made in the Victoria Dock.

Re-examined by THE SOLICITOR-GENERAL. The builder asked me to give evidence at the inquest on his behalf, because I have been in the habit of seeing a number of his vessels, and was therefore in a position to give evidence as to the strength of the vessel forward—it was entirely with reference to that question and in the builder's interests that I was examined as a witness, as far as I am aware—it would take a minute or two to see what the real condition of things was 021 board—I have been in the habit of looking after the repairs of vessels for the last fifteen years—I was a seafaring man before that—I have been in command of vessels for seven years before I became superintendent—I came through the various grades of officer—it is thirty-two years since I first went to sea—I have been partly in iron vessels and partly in wood.

This being the case for the Prosecution, MR. SERJEANT TARRY submitted that the Franconia, being a Gentian ship carrying the German flag, with a German captain and crew, this Court had no jurisdiction to try; she was merely on her way on the high seas from Hamburgh to New York, not in any way seeking the protection of this country, not bound to any port in this country, or engaged in commerce here; she, therefore, owned no local allegiance to this country, but was simply sailing on the international highway within 3 miles of the shore, which for some purposes, not for all, might he said to be part of this kingdom; but the defendant had done no act to alter his German nationality, and in Germany alone could he be tried, Mr. Cohen, on the same side, urged that the mere fact of the vessel passing through the territorial waters of Great Britain did not give this Court jurisdiction.

THE SOLICITOR-GENERAL contended that the very phrase "territorial waters" was an answer to the objection; it was immaterial with what object or intention the foreigner was there; the word "territorial" expressly pointed to dominion and exercise of power over the place in dispute; the moment he got to the territorial waters the right of territorial sovereignty existed.

MR. BARON POLLOCK considered it best that the trial should proceed, the Jury being directed that for the present purpose this Court should be held to have jurisdiction, the decision of that question being left for the Court of Criminal Appeal.

Thursday, April 6th.

The following witnesses were called for the Defence.

CHARLES MARTIN CALLOW . I a first-class clerk in the Admiralty Registry—I produce a certificate of the register of the Franconia, in German, to which is attached a notaries translation—it has been. filed in the Registry in a cause of damage which is pending there.

THE SOLICITOR-GENERAL objected to this document, which was not read.

EDWARD HEINEICH METER (interpreted). I was chief officer of the steam ship Franconia on the 17th of February last—I understand a little English—the Franconia is a German ship and carries a German flag—the captain is a German and the crew nearly all German—the ship carries passengers as well as cargo—on 17th February the number of the crew was seventy-three, and we had four passengers and the mails on board, bound to Havre, and ultimately to St. Thomas, West Indies—we had an English pilot on board named Porter; we took him at Grimsby—we passed the South Sand Head light on the right hand—we also had a French pilot on board, who was to take us to Havre from Dungeness—the English pilot was also going to Havre—when we passed the South Sand Head light we were steering S W by W, that would not be the right course to Dungeness—after passing the

South Sand lightship our course was altered to W S W 1/4 S; that was the right course to Dungeness; that course was not altered or deviated from up to the time of the collision, and if there had been no collision we should have continued that course right away to Dungeness—Captain Key was on the bridge up to the collision, I was with him—I know the course was W S W 1/4 S from an examination of the compass, which had been adjusted at Grimsby—after we had passed the lightship a little, I noticed the Strathclyde, about 3 miles off, 6 points on our starboard bow—when I first saw her she appeared to be going the same course as the Franconia—after I saw her again she had altered her course, because she came from land towards me and appeared as if she wanted to cross our bows—our engines were stopped by the captain's orders—the Strathclyde was then about 2 ship's lengths off—the order was first stop and then go astern, and then he gave the orders to me to port the helm, and I waved my hand to the quartermaster to turn the helm over, which was done—the Franconia still had headway about 4 miles at the time of the collision—we were going down Channel at 8 3/4 knots by the log before that—the engines were going astern about two minutes before the collision—the captain waved to the Strathclyde with his cap to port his helm and shouted "Keep off!"—I hardly believe the captain of the Strathclyde could have heard it—I did not see the captain of the Strathclyde on the bridge—I felt the shock of the collision—I did not see the damage that was done to the Franconia—I remained on the bridge—the captain left the bridge and ran forward; he came back directly and gave me orders to get the boats out to save the men from the other ship—I and the crew got the boats ready—I think the engines were then still going astern; I believe they were stopped after, but I did not take any notice—the crew were in good order and obeyed the orders that were given—we got the port boat out first over the side, ready to be lowered down—I then went over to the starboard boat—the second officer, Lubbe, came on deck just when the collision happened and took command of the port boat—I and the crew got the starboard boat ready—we had seven boats altogether and one steam launch; we got three ready for lowering, they were lowered within a few feet of the water—I saw a steam tug at this time about a quarter of a mile off us and about the same distance from the Strathclyde—at the time of the collision the English pilot was below—directly after it happened I saw him run forward—I did not hear him say anything to the captain—before I got the starboard boat quite ready I got the order from the captain to go down below to see whether there was water forward; I found the forward compartment was full—the collision bulkhead was bent and water was coming through it—the fore compartment was full up to the draught of the ship, 15 feet—I came on deck and reported to the captain—I was sent down again and remained for about half an hour for the purpose of watching.

Cross-examined by THE SOLICITOB-GENERAL. I am a sailor myself; I hare been at sea since 1853, and have been in command of vessels—the English pilot continued on duty till we got to the South Sand Head light vessel, and then the captain took command—we passed about a mile seawards of the light—the captain gave me orders to steer a course W S W 1/4 S—at that time I saw the Strathclyde about N W from me, a little northerly, about off the South Foreland—we had no look-out, it being clear weather—our course was kept till within two ships' lengths of the collision—I know that she being on our starboard bow it was our duty to keep out of the way, but not at such a great distance, not sooner than there was danger apprehended—we

believed she would go down the Channel the same way as we did—we stopped and went astern—I consider coming into danger, a few ships' lengths—the ships were a good two ships' lengths apart when I considered they were coming into danger—the captain was then at the telegraph—if I saw there was danger I should consider it my duty to speak to the captain, although he was in command—I did not speak to him, because he was already at the telegraph—I was examined before the Coroner; my evidence was taken down in writing, and I signed it—I said then that if I had been in command I would not have gone so close to the vessel, but I meant if I had been in command as officer, not in command as captain—I understood if I had had command as officer in my position, but not so much so as if I was captain—the captain has much more right to do a thing than I have as officer—if I had been acting on my own judgment and in my own command as chief officer I would not have gone so close—if I enter a port where I go in as captain of the ship I should not enter that same port perhaps if I was officer of the ship—there was not so much risk in my judgment in getting so close, but if I had been chief officer in command I would not have done so—if we had starboarded our helm the Strathclyde would have run into us with her stem—I remember being asked that question before the Coroner, and I said "I was not in command, so I cannot say why the helm was not starboarded"—I believe there would have been a collision if we had starboarded our helm three ships' lengths away from the Strathclyde—I did not say that the Strathclyde ported her helm; I cannot swear that she did not, because—I did not see it—I cannot swear whether she has done so or whether she has not done so—I did not see any alteration in her course; perhaps I did not attend to it—I am not able to say whether she did or did not—if she had ported her helm, and we had starboarded, it is difficult to say whether there would have been any collision; it may be possible that she would touch the after part of the vessel—I heard our captain give the order to port our helm when the engine began to go astern—the first order was "stop" and at once "astern"—the first order was to stop and reverse the engines, and then as to the helm, to port—the order to port may have been given about a minute before the collision—the effect of that would be to bring our vessel's head nearer to the Strathclyde at first, but very little—we still had way on the vessel at the time of the collision—we had, I think, got the tide against us—I cannot say, but 1 think you can reverse the engines and stop the vessel dead in about four minutes, till the ship goes astern—it is, of course, easier to do that when the tide is against us than when it is with us; the vessel will stop sooner—the wind was on our port bow a very little; if you call a quarter of a point on the port side the port bow, then yes—I went down to the compartment it may have been seven minutes after the collision—the Franconia was not then making her way to Dover; I am positive of that—she was in motion, but I do not know in what direction; I did not look over the side—I know she was not going to Dover because we had the land on our starboard side—I did not take notice whether we were making our way to land—the first boat was ready about six minutes after the collision—she was got ready directly after the collision—I began it and the second officer finished getting her ready—I did not see the mate of the Strathclyde come on board—I did not hear him ask somebody to get ready the boats—I saw one man from the Strathclyde come on board when I was at the port boat—I understand a little English—I heard one call out "My poor ship," but who it was I do not know—I did

not also hear him ask to have the boats made ready to save them from drowning, or say anything about the boats—I did not speak to the captain at all, but he gave me the order to get the boats ready—I said before the Coroner that if I had been in command of the ship I would have lowered the boats, but I added to it "if I was not afraid my own ship was sinking"—I mean to say that I added that before the Coroner; I said "Yes, if I was not afraid of myself"—I also said "The boats were never put into the water, because we never stopped"—I was asked "If you had been in command of the ship would you not have stopped by the Strathclyde and got out the boats?"and my answer was "Yes, I would do so if I was not afraid for myself"—I was asked "If your ship had been in danger of sinking. would you not have wanted your boats in the water to save yourselves?"—I answered "I do not think so"—they would, have been obliged to get our boats into the water as soon as the bulkhead was burst in—as a matter of fact our boats were never lowered into the water—I remained down examining the damage for half an hour—I cannot say whether the vessel was ever stopped during that time; I was at work down below, and I could not hear the engines forward in the ship—I don't believe that the ship stopped, though I cannot say; I did not take notice—when I had examined the damage I went up and reported it to the captain; I said that the bulkhead was bent and water was coming through on the starboard side, and the fore compartment was full of water—when I told him that the boats were outside ready to be lowered they were lowered a few feet from the water, but not to the water—the engines, I believe, were still going at that time—when I came on deck again I saw that the Strathclyde had sunk—I did not see her sink—this occurred on the afternoon of the 17th—the Franconia started from the Downs at 7 o'clock next morning on her journey to London, and we arrived in the Victoria Docks on the evening of the 18th when it was getting dark.

Re-examined. I have known captain Keyn one year—this was the fourth voyage I made with him—I always found him a careful and cautious commander—I have the fullest confidence in his skill and judgement—he was humane and kind man—whether he was right or wrong he tried to do the best he could, what he thought was the best—after the collision and when the Franconia was going towards Dover, towards the land, the English pilot was on the bridge and as far as I know he took her in—I know article 16 which Bays "Every steamship when approaching another ship so as to involve risk of collision shall slacken her speed or if necessary stop and reverse"—if the Strathclyde had slackened her speed as she was approaching the Franconia, and the accident had happened at all it would not have been so severe—when I said that the Strathclyde appeared to be wishing to cross our bows, I meant that she appeared as if she wanted to cross our bows to go across ahead of us—at the time of the collision she was lying at a pointed angle in reference to the Franconia—supposing the Franconia had been distant enough away so as not to interfere with her, that position would have enabled her to cross the Franeonia bows—I said before the Coroner "If we had put our helm to starboard when we were 100 yards off I think the Strathclyde would have struck us; the Strathclyde looked as if she, the Strathclyde, wanted to cross our bows"—this is the Franconia and this is the Strathclyde (pointing) if we had gone to starboard we should have gone that way and the Strathclyde would have run into the Franconia—if I had been in the captain's position at the time of the collision I should have stopped and reversed the

engines as he did and it is possible that I might hare ordered the helm hard a port, and perhaps not, it is difficult to say—the boats could not have been lowered into the water while the engines were going ahead—I heard some one say "My God, my poor ship" or some expression of that kind—at that time I was getting the boats ready—I did not hear the pilot say anything to the captain or urge him to proceed or anything of that kind—anybody could see that the mate of the other vessel was excited—I do not know that gentleman (Mr. Gellatly).

By a Juror. We were running at 8 3/4 knots an hour, and when we struck it was only 4 knots—we could stop the vessel in four boats' lengths—I had not power as chief officer to order the helm to be put hard a port—when the order was given to stop and then to reverse, the effect was to lessen the speed as soon as the engine was turned astern—at the time of the collision the ship may have been running at the rate of 3 miles or 4 miles; that would be possible against wind and tide—they would take effect against the vessel, but she would possibly be still surging through the water at 3 miles an hour, or it might be less; I cannot say exactly.

WILLIAM CASPAR EDWARD LUBBE (interpreted). I was second mate of the Franconia—I had the watch down below, and was in my cabin at the time of the collision—I noticed that our engines had been stopped about three minutes before the collision—I went on deck just after the collision—the chief mate was then on the port boat and the captain was on the bridge—the English pilot was not on the bridge at that time—I ran forward to call my watch to attend to the boats, and the captain called out and gave me the order to get the boats ready to save the people from the Strathclyde—this was immediately after the collision—I looked over the the bow and saw that the stem was wholly gone; there was a large hole—I ordered all hands to go to the starboard boat, which was obeyed at once—there was good order on the ship—the starboard boat was lowered to about 4 feet above the water—when the boats were ready to be lowered into the water I asked the captain for orders—while I was still at the starboard boat I heard the pilot call out to port the helm and go towards land, because the Franconia was sinking—the pilot came running back from forwards to the bridge when he said that—a minute later, after the pilot had called out that, I went to the bridge, and the captain told me to keep the boats hanging, as he saw already a steamer going out from Dover to the Strathclyde—the engines were going at first; they stopped after the collision; I did not look at the watch, but I think for a few minutes—the engines were ordered to go ahead again after the pilot cried out that the vessel would sink—the Franconia then went towards the land—a towboat passed at the same time that the captain said that the boats were to remain on board—the tug may have been half a mile or perhaps three-quarters from the Strathdyde at that time—the space on our ship before the collision bulkhead had to be cleared away before it could be shored up, but I did not superintend the work; I was on the bridge—later on I went down and saw the collision bulkhead; the starboard side of it was broken, and the water was coming through—if that collision bulkhead had given way the ship would have sunk—I think there was danger to it; I thought it would never keep tight—the crew were clearing away just in front of the collision bulk-bead, and afterwards I was down below and saw that it was shored up—I saw three shores when I was there afterwards—I did not go down—I could not say the thickness of the shores except by measure—at the time of the collision, when I went forward, all the ropes that were on the fore part of

the vessel were over the side; they must have I seen thrown out for assistance, because we never allow ropes to hang over the side—I was not forward at the time, but I know that five men got on board the ship, and one of them was the chief mate of the Strathclyde—he was alarmed; I saw—that he was very excited—I saw him while I was putting out the starboard boat leaning with his back against the house, making exclamations—there was a steam launch on board the vessel, and the chief mate tried to cut the lashings of it, but I told him it was of no use because they could not row in it—he did not ask me to help him—that was, I believe, during the time I was getting the starboard boat ready—besides the tug, I saw a barque and a Deal lugger—the tug could certainly have saved lives from the Strathclyde, because she went full speed towards the place, and it was after the tug was seen that the master ordered the engines to go ahead—I first saw the tug when I went on the bridge and reported that the boats were ready.

Cross-examined by the SOLICITOR GENERAL. That may have been 6 to 7 minutes after the collision, and as I said before according to my opinion, the tug was then 3/4 or 1/2 a mile from the Strathclyde—that was the first time I saw the tug; the captain told me to keep the boats as there was a tow boat coming out already—that was the first time I saw the tow boat—I mean that the captain told me not to put the boats out because the tow boat was coming to save the people in the Strathclyde, and besides that he believed that our ship might be sinking every minute—at that time we were about half a mile, three-quarters, or a mile from the Strathclyde, but I cannot say exactly, because I had so much to do with the boats—I am a sailor, and am in the habit of forming a judgment of distances at sea, and I think we were a good half mile from the Strathclyde, at the time the captain told me that—I did not see that the Strathclyde was sinking; I only saw her once, and that was when I came on deck; I kept on the starboard side with the boats, and when I was later on the bridge I looked for her, and did not see her any more—I did not see her when she struck, only when I came on deck after the collision, and I did not see her again from that time, I had no time for it—I cannot say whether the Franconia struck her twice, I was in my state-room dressing at the time—I only felt one shock—I went on deck because it was the changing of the watch; I had to be on deck at 4 o'clock I did not come on deck because the engines stopped; it drew my attention that they were stopped, but I believed there was something elseaccording to my idea there was three minutes between the collision and the stopping of the engines—when I came on deck, I saw the people engaged at the port boat—I did not see anything particular on board the Strathdyde, because I had not time to look at it—she was on our port side, scarcely half a mile off—I did not hear the mate of the Strathclyde say that his poor shipmates were being allowed to drown, or about the people on board being allowed to go down without anybody to help them—I understand a little English, but not much.

Re-examined. I heard when I came on the bridge that the English pilot called him "Captain," and he answered to him that it was a misfortune that he was not the captain; otherwise this accident would not have happened—he said nothing as to why he had left his ship with so many passengers on board.

By THE JUTY. There were seven boats on board, and one steam launch; they were all seaworthy except one, and she was broken by the ice—they were very large boats and some small boats; altogether they would carry

100 or more—the crew were seventy-three, and there were four passengers and two pilots.

By THE COURT. There were only six boats, because one was broken, and the other was the steam launch—I cannot see the use of lowering the steam launch to save life because it is so difficult to work her—she would live on the water though we could not move her, she is about 25 feet long, and 4 or 5 feet beam; I cannot give the measure exactly—many people would not go in it because there is a large boiler—it would hold ten or twelve people—it is fitted with rowlocks or poles to pull by—she could actually have been pulled if she had been lowered into the water, but she was very bad because she was only fitted for two to pull.

By MR. SERJEANT PABRY. It would take much longer to lower the steam launch because she was very heavy.

EMILE KOATZE interpreted). I am chief engineer of the Fran-conia—I had charge of the engines, and had three assistant-engineers under me—at the time of the collision I was superintending the engines; they are of 350-horse power, and will work up to 1,100—up to a very short time before the collision we were going at full speed; that would be 8 3/4 knots an hour, and making 54 1/2 revolutions per minute—we were using what is called the expansive gear—I was near the engine room at 4.2—it was Suspensor, the third engineer's watch—the second engineer had changed with the third at 1 o'clock—at about 4.2 I received an order from the bridge by telegraph "Stop; full speed astern"—those were separate orders suddenly given, one after the other—it was the third engineer's duty to execute that order in the engine room, and he executed it at once—he stopped at first and then full speed astern—in about two minutes after going astern I felt a light shock.—the first minute after the order "Full speed astern" the engine made thirty revolutions, the second minute forty—the engines were going astern about five minutes; they then stopped for about a minute—they began to stop two or three minutes after the collision—the next thing was "Slowly ahead" for a short time, and then "Stop" for one minute—all the orders for these different movements were executed by the third engineer—I saw-nothing of the collision; I was down in the engine-room.

Cross-examined by THE SOLICITOR-GENERAL. I was not on duty in the engine room; I never am on duty; I was superintending—I was attending to the business of the engine in the engine-room—I got the revolutions by the dial—the third engineer took the revolutions, and I, as an old practical engineer, knew how much the steamer did make—I did not observe it myself, I guessed it—I connected the pumps; there were six pumps on deck and three in the engine-room—I connected the pump with the steam-engine immediately, and it worked all right—it took me about a minute to do it—it is a donkey engine; I worked it then and there—8 3/4 knots is the speed the Franconia runs, we have done. 10; that is to say, with the tide and wind in favour—in seven voyages our average has been 10 knots decimal 2; that is the run over the ground, not through the water—she is always under steam—10 3/4 would be the maximum speed with all chances in her favour, wind, tide, and everything—I don't know how much cargo we had on board; we were light loaded, how much I can't say.

Re-examined. We were going 8 3/4 up to the time of the collision; I am quite certain of that.

JOHN BEVAN (re-examined by MR. SERJEANT PARRY. I do not remember when I was on board the Franconia the pilot addressing me as the

captain of the Strathclyde; I distinctly contradict it—I never said "Unfortunately I am not the captain of the Strathclyde; if I had been this would not have occurred"—I don't think I could have said it and forgotten it, not to him; if it was said it must have been said to the man that came on board at Dover; it was he who addressed me as captain, not knowing at the time who I was—I was examined at Poplar—I may have said "Unfortunately I am not the captain," but not using the phrase "of the Strath-Clyde"—I may have said "If I had been captain of her," but such a thing would not have occurred implying the Franconia, because I mean to say that I could not possibly have done anything else or anything more than my captain has done in the case—I don't remember my deposition being read over to me; I signed it.

By THE SOLICITOR-GENERAL. I landed at Dover from the Franconia someone there addressed me as "captain;" he was not speaking to me directly—I saw some conversation going on between the captain and the man who came on board from Dover; I happened to come there at the time, and he addressed me as "captain"—I remember saying, "Don't call me 'captain;' I am not captain of her; if I had been, such a thing would not have happened"—"of her," not of the Strathclyde—I was then on board the Franconia—I thought he apparently took me for the captain of the Franconia—I could not possibly have said such a thing with regard to my own captain—if it was taken down so I did not mean so.

ROBERT STEIN (interpreted). I was second engineer of the Franconia—on 17th February last 1 was in the engine-room shortly before the collision—I was there on duty as engineer—I heard the order given, "Stop, full speed astern"—the orders were given by telegraph from the bridge—no time elapsed between the two orders; they came one after the other, about two minutes before the collision—they were obeyed directly, and I gave the counter order on deck that it was done—they were obeyed by the third engineer—I stayed in the engine-room after the collision; I can't for certain say how long; I left when the fourth engineer came down and told me there had been a collision; then I went on deck—I was with the first engineer on the deck, and he told me to go forward to see what damage there had been done—I did so—I saw that the whole bow was cut away forward, and the collision bulkhead was leaky—I went forward between decks; the sea was coming underneath where I stood—I went right up to the bulkhead; it was forced in on one side, and leaky; water was coming through.

CONRAD BERTHOLD SUSSENHOP (interpreted). I was the third engineer of the Franconia—it was my watch at 4 o'clock in the afternoon of the 17th February—I was down in the engine-room when the captain gave the order to stop, full speed astern—I executed that order myself at once—the Franconia obeyed it at once; she went astern about two minutes before I felt any shock—after the collision she first went astern and then stopped, and then went slowly ahead—we stopped several times after the collision; three times—when the order was given, "Full speed astern," the engines made thirty revolutions the first minute and forty the second, seventy altogether.

Cross-examined by THE SOLICITOR-GENERAL. I counted it, and saw it at the telltale or dial—I am quite certain; I can swear that there were seventy revolutions—the vessel obeyed momentarily; we at once closed off the steam—all I can tell is that the engines obeyed; whether the vessel was

going ahead although the engines were going astern, I could not tell in the engine-room—I don't know how soon you can make the vessel go astern under full speed ahead in still water—I don't know how many knots an hour she can make; it might be she could run from 11 to 12—I said at Poplar it might be, I did not know for certain—we did not take in coals at Grimsby.

Re-examined by MR. SERJEANT PARRY. I cannot tell at what speed we were going at the time of the collision—I was asked before the Coroner how fast the ship could run, whether she could run 11 to 12 miles, and I said that might be, according to wind and weather—that is what I say now—the coals were bad; that would affect the speed of the vessel; if we cannot have so much power we cannot go so quick.

CARL BENTEIN (interpreted). I was quartermaster on board the Franconia—I was on duty from 12 till 1 o'clock on the day of the collision—I was at the wheel up to 3 o'clock—we were steering W S W 1/4 W—I think that is the ordinary Channel course—I remained at the wheel after 3 o'clock—about a minute before the collision I heard an order given to the helmsman, "Helm hard a port"—I did that myself, and stood by it—at that time the vessel was steering W S W 1/4 W—I saw the Strathclyde about a quarter of an hour or twenty minutes before the collision—she had not then started for her course down Channel—I don't know the Channel well.

Cross-examined by THE SOLICITOR-GENERAL. I continued at the wheel up to the time of the collision—I put the helm hard a port myself a minute before the collision; that is, a minute as near as I could judge—we steer in the wheel-house, under cover—we get our orders from the captain on the bridge—they have a wheel-house on the bridge too, but we were steering aft at that time—I was never off Dover before; I have been several times down Channel, but not by Dover so close—I thought she was steering the right course; she was steering more southerly.

RICHARD JULIUS PETERSON (interpreted). I am purser of the Franconia—I was in my room writing at the time of the collision—I felt a little shock—I went on deck at once—the men were occupied forward and in the bows of the vessel—ropes were thrown over the side of the vessel by the crew and myself—I saw some passengers come on board from the Strath-dyde; I saw five persons scramble on board the Franconia—some caught hold of the ropes that were thrown out and some not—I got the boats ready, first the midship boat on the port side; others of the crew of the Franconia assisted in so doing—we put the boat outside the ship and lowered it to about 3 feet above the water, and the men on the starboard side lowered the boats 3 feet above the water—I saw the English pilot once in the midships and once forward in the bows of the ship—I did not hear him say anything—I afterwards noticed the injury that was done to the Franconia; I saw the stem, and the plates had been pressed in from star-board to port, and some part of it had fallen off already, broken away—we had about eighty persons altogether on board.

Cross-examined by THE SOLICITOR-GENERAL. We had four passengers—I do not know where they were at the time—the between deck passengers were husband and wife named Yarn—I don't remember the name of the first cabin passengers—none of them are here.

lie-examined by MR. SERJEANT PARRY. None of the passengers were called at the inquest.

GEORGE WESTPHALL (interpreted). I was boatswain of the Franconia.

I was in the port watch, that is the mate's watch—at the time of the collison my watch had just gone—I was on the fore deck a few minutes before the collision—I had hove the log at 3 o'clock—we were then making S 3/4 knots—after the collision ropes were thrown from our ship to assist, and ropes were hove on to the Strathclyde, I myself hove one—three of the crew of the Starthclyde had hold of the ropes—orders were given about getting boats ready; we obeyed them, we got ready two on the starboard side and one on the port side, she was launched all ready.

Cross-examined by THE SOLICITOR-GENERAL. We did not lower the boats to save all the Strathclyde people, because we thought we were sinking ourselves—we got them ready to go to the Strathclyde, but from what we heard we were going down too—I believe there were boats enough to save both the people in the Strathclyde and the Franconia, but we could not have got them all out—we had seventy-three in crew, all told, but only thirteen sailors amongst them, the others were firemen and stokers, and so on, they could not do much in the boats—there were eleven able seamen and two ordinary—four quarter-masters and two officers, besides the captain—the boatswain is a petty officer—I believe there were twenty-six firemen and stokers—it would take twenty-four hands to lower the steam launch—we had plenty of men to do that—I said before the Coroner that I thought the Strathclyde had starboarded before the collision; I think so now—I also said that the Strathclyde apparently came broadside on to the Franconia— and I think so still.

Re-examined by MR. SERJEANT PARRY. It would take a good ten minutes to lower the steam launch—at the tune of the collision I was forward, in the stem of the vessel.

By THE JURY. There was a boat's crew told off to every boat on board the Franconia—I was told off to the port boat—I went to try to lower that boat as soon as the order was given; that was one of the boats that was lowered towards the water—the crew was divided into two watches, six in each watch—there were four boats on the port side.

ANDREAS CHRISTIAN HEINRICH KAULBERSS (interpreted). I was a carpenter on board the Franconia, I came on deck just at the time of the collison—immediately after the collision I went forward and threw ropes over the ship's bows and helped to pull in two persons from the Strathclyde—I then received orders from the captain to sound the pump, I did so immediately after the collision—I found 12 or 13 inches of water, and directly afterwards it was 14 to 15 inches—she was always a dry ship—I inspected the bulkhead, I found that water came through the collision bulkhead; it was broken—I afterwards shored it, in order to do so I had to clear away forward, that took me about a quarter of an hour—I then proceeded, with the assistance of the crew, to shore up; there appeared to me to be danger of its giving way—at first only one of the crew helped me, they were busy with the boats, afterwards they began helping me—I used eight shores, 5 by 6 inches thick, and then planks up and down; there was considerable shoring—if the collision bulkhead had given way the vessel would have been in imminent danger, she would have been right filled up.

Cross-examined by THE SOLICITOR-GENERAL. I told the captain first that there was 12 inches, and then afterwards 14—the first was ten minutes after the collision—then I went to the engine to keep the pumps on—I then went down to the collision bulkhead to shore it up—I was at work at that about half an hour—I could not know then that the vessel was not sinking—the

chief officer Mr. Meyer stood by my side and told me not to go down there, because we might sink every minute; I did go down—I found difficulty in shoring up the collision bulkhead—I did not get ready in half an hour with the eight stancheons, it took me longer—I said before the Coroner that the water was oozing and trickling through the rivets—I don't recollect whether I said that the engines were moving during the half or quarter of an hour before we got a good look at the bulkhead, and it was not much injured—I don't know whether I said it exactly as it stands there—it was not much injured where I could see it at first—I did not say "I had no difficulty in strengthening it", I shored it up with struts—the ship made 2 inches of water during the voyage—I had sounded her that morning, at eight o'clock, she was making 2 inches then—while I was shoring the bulkhead, one man came first to help me, he was an hour with me; he was there before me—I was there half an hour, the other one remained there for an hour, and I came down again and shored it up later, to fix it more; that was after we came to Dover—the 14 or 15 inches was not in the collision bulkhead, in the second compartment—I had a difficulty in shoring up the collision bulkhead, we had to take all the ropes out, and then to fetch wood and timber together; that is the difficulty I mean.

Re-examined by MR. COHEN. There was no difficulty in shoring, but in labour, that was all—I was asked before the Coroner "Whilst your ship went slowly, was there any danger of the bulkhead giving way?"and I answered "Yes, certainly;" that was true—I also said that the collision bulkhead was broken in the lower compartment and in the upper compartment on the starboard side, and bent besides; that was true.

JAMES PORTER . I am a licensed Trinity House pilot from Hull to the South Foreland—I have been a pilot twenty years along this route—I went on board the Franconia in Grimsby Dock—I had piloted her six time before on a similar voyage to that which she was going—she always goes from Hamburgh to Grimsby, then to Havre and the West Indies—she was in dock at Grimsby—we arrived safely at the South Sand lightship, and then took her course down Channel—my duties terminate at the South Sand lightship—I remained on the bridge about a mile to the westward of the South Foreland—I saw the Strathclyde inshore of us, about two points before our beam, close to the land, about the easternmost part of Dover; she appeared to be landing her pilot—I did not notice what course she took afterwards—I was off the deck then—the captain ordered me below—I stayed on the deck a few minutes—I know what the ordinary course is down channel coming out of Dover Bay—when they have a pilot to land, if they are half a mile from the pier, they will sail W by W or S W by W 1/2 W, some will—the whole of the course to Dungeness, half a mile in, is in deep soundings, plenty of water for the largest ship in the world—when I was ordered below I had been twenty-four hours on duty and had had no rest, only sitting down a minute'—I went into the after saloon—our vessel was going S and by S W to W. there was a quarter of a point deviation in the compass—she was going in the direct course towards Dungeness, that course would have taken us about four or five miles outside Dungeness—while I was in the cabin I sat right aft over the propeller drinking a cup of coffee; I sat 20 minutes, and I heard the ship stop; directly she stopped it was "full speed astern;" you—can tell when you are sitting over the propeller—she went full speed astern then, I should say, for three minutes; then I heard the crush, and I thought it was the shaft, I jumped on deck and saw the Strathclyde lying athwart

our bows, with her head about S and by E 1/2 E—I wont forward, and the ships were separated from each other then, and I saw them hauling the men in over the starboard bow, and other men with ropes, but they were no use, they could not reach the vessel, she was a long distance off then—I looked over our port bow, and I saw our bow from about 6 or 8 feet turned right out like a bulkhead, up and down, and I said to the captain "For Gods's sake, captain, put the helm a port, and let us go for the land, our ship will go down"—my object was to put the vessel on the beach—at that time I thought she would go down, I only expected so—I saw the chief officer of the Strathclyde about five minutes after he was on board, I saw him rowing about the deck; he afterwards came on the bridge and said to me "What. are you going to do?"—I said "My good man," at least I said "Captain, my good man, go forward and look at our bows"—he said "I am not captain, unfortunately, if I had been it would not have happened"—afterwards he asked the captain for grog—I was on the bridge all the time after saying to the captain "For God's sake take her on shore"—I was not giving directions and acting as pilot till we got into the bay, the captain gave me charge then—I saw the steam tug—she was, I should say, from three-quarters to a mile from the Strathclyde—I can't say that the captain of the Franconia dipped his flag in sign of distress, he was on the bridge with me, the men did it—I know where the wreck of the Strathcyde now lies, she lies about N W and by N 1/2 N from Dover Pier—if she had been going S W by W, taking that course down Channel, I do not believe that she could possibly have got where she now lies—I will show you where he would be if he had started about a mile from the pier (marking the chart)—I have taken the course as S W by W (the witness also marked the position of the wreck on the chart)—the Strathclyde, if she had been going the course I have marked, could not have got to the spot where the wreck is—she must have been going S by E.

Cross-examined by THE SOLICITOR-GENERAL. I have marked the chart three miles from the coast, unless I have made a mistake—I see I have measured a mile from the shore, instead of from the end of the pier—I made no mistake about the scale, the wreck lies about 2 miles and a half from the end of the pier, as near as I can guess—the pier is N W by N 1/2 N from the wreck. (The witness here by desire of the Solicitor-General marked the line of the alleged course of the Franconia, from the South Fore land light.) I should say the Strathclyde, would drift about 2 lengths from where she was struck, not more, in about a S S E direction, that would be further from the shore than the spot where she was struck—the tide was flood, setting to the E—it was high water at Dover, just at the time—I am a Trinity House pilot—this is ray certificate (produced)—it is a branch of the Trinity House, that is established at Kingston-upon-Hull—my jurisdiction ends at the South Sand Head light—I am not qualified to act as pilot after that—I gave the Coroner and the Jury my view about the saving of the Strathclyde—I did not hear the mate of the Strathclyde, repeatedly speak about his shipmates who were drowning without any assistance—he did not say anything about them at that time—I said to him "My good man, why, we are sinking ourselves"—that was when we got into Dover Roads—he came and asked me what we were going to do—I said "My good captain, go forward and look at our bow, if you think it is prudent, and he said "I am not captain unfortunately, if I had been it would not have happened," and there was no more, only what he asked the captain—that is all he said to me—I swear I did not hear him say to anybody anything

about saving the lives on board the Strathclyde—I said at Poplar, that I never thought of saving lives from the Strathclyde, or of trying, to save lives from the Strathclyde, I considered our own lives were as good as others—I did not look to see whether the Strathclyde was sinking—I was looking to see if our own ship would sink—I saw the Strathclyde go down—I heard the carpenter report to the captain of the Franconia, that there was water in the ship, but very little, that was after we had shored up—I think so; I did not trouble my head with that—I only think so; I am not sure—the Strathclyde, had disappeared altogether when we were in Dover Bay—the people were drowned then, and I am very sorry for it—we were 2 miles and a half from Dover Pier, at the time of the collision—I said. before the Coroner "We got within quarter of a mile or so of Dover Pier," the captain had before that in my hearing, ordered the carpenter to go and shore the bulk-head up—it might have been before, I cannot toll you, I heard him say so, but I don't know whether it was before he shored up or after—the Franconia boats were got within about 3 feet of the water—I can give a reason why they were not lowered into the water to save the lives on board the Strathclyde, because if our vessel went down, we could jump into them in a minute—I did not know that the Franconia had got a collision bulk-head—I cannot, tell you whether that would have made any difference in my advice to beach the vessel—I took the bearings of the wreck when I went on the bridge, not since—I had piloted this vessel before from Grimsby six times—I have sometimes landed at Dover, and sometimes at Deal, and sometimes in Havre; I have landed in Havre, I should think twenty times with the same captain—I have been to Havre three times in the Franconia, the last time was three months before this 17th February, there is no arrangement made—if it is fine weather I land, and if it is bad weather I go on—I did not land this time at Dover, because I did not want to trouble them to go inside—we usually go nearer than 2 1/2 miles, going to Havre—when I have landed at Dover, the captain steers. his course for Dungeness, S S W half a mile from the pier, or three-quarters at least—when we passed the East Goodwin, it was thick weather and I made up my mind then to go to Havre—the captain never asked me where I was going to land—I can't say whether I said anything to him—he told me to go down below and get dressed; I was tired.

Re-examined by MR. SERJEANT PARKY. We had a French pilot on board to take us to Havre, Mr. Crochemoro—he had taken us to Havre before—on this occasion we steered from the Newsome Float light-ship, S E by S to the Dudgeon coming from Grimsby, that is about 24 miles from the shore—we steered S S W from the Dudgeon, for about four hours and when we came within 4 miles of the land—and when we got down to the South Foreland at the time of this accident the ship was going right on to Havre—I honestly and conscientiously believed that my ship was sinking or might sink, and that was the-reason of my giving the advice which I did to the captain—I have known the Defendant about 6 or 7 years; I had been with him before in other ships on several voyages, he had confidence in me and I in him—he is a perfect sailor, a man of skill in his profession, and very strict—I have always found him a kind-hearted and humane man, and a perfect gentleman.

By A JUROR. When I came on deck after the collision I examined the bows of the Franconia and found them stove in. I ran back to the captain and shouted to turn her head and beach the vessel to save her, because I

thought she was sinking—I had no power to give any order, I only said so, it was, advice—I cannot say whether the advice was acted upon—I believe the was sell went inshore—I did not know at that time whether the Franconia had a collision bulkhead—I could not say, had I known that, whether I should; still have given the same advice—if the collision bulkhead had given way the other compartments could be filled and the vessel would have gone down; very quick—the vessel was not run ashore, we went close to the pier.

Q. What had caused the change in the vessel's course; what had changed your opinion A. There was not much water in then—it was no use off us going off to the Strathclyde then; if our vessel had sunk then we should; have been in shoal water; there was not so much danger—I never heard anything about the collision bulkhead until we were close into Dover.

JOSEPH CROCHEMORE (interpreted). I am a licensed pilot to the port of Havre—I went on board the Franconia at Grimsby at 6 o'clock in the morning of the 10th February to pilot her into Havre—at 3.45 on the 17th February I was down below and the cabin doctor said something to me—I went on deck and saw a steamboat on our starboard side about two ship's lengths, steering S W by S—I went on the bridge—and looked at the compass—our vessel's head was W S W, a few degrees &—the captain was on the bridge on the starboard side; I saw him walk quickly towards the telegraph and he brought the handle of the telegraph upright, which means stop her—he then turned it towards the after part of the ship, which means astern full speed—he then walked to the extreme port side of the bridge, and said "Port the helm," and waved for the helm to be ported—he then went to the starboard side of the bridge, took off his cap and waved it, and made use of an English word which I did not understand—I saw no effect at all on the Strathclyde—the courses of the two vessels crossed immediately afterwards and the collision happened—when I saw the Strathclyde before the collision she was certainly crossing our course—we were steering W S W and the other one S W by S—the courses were crossing each other by 3 points, that is only approximately—at the time of the collision Dover was abreast of us about—I did not pay attention whether our course was changed—three of the Franconia's boats were got over the side—the English pilot was shouting out to port the helm and to go ahead.

Cross-examined by THE SOLICITOR-GENERAL. I had been about three hours down below when the doctor spoke to me—I arrived on the bridge at the time the captain was setting the engines astern—the vessels may have been a little nearer than two ships' lengths then—I took notice of their courses—the Franconia was going full speed astern when the collision took place; the vessel herself might have been going two knots ahead—I cannot say exactly what headway she had lost, but I should estimate three-quarters of her speed—I did not say before the Coroner that the Franconia had lost half a knot, it was done so quickly—it must be an error—I signed my deposition, and had an interpreter—I am ready to swear that I do not remember having said so, or that it is a misinterpretation—it is impossible that I could have spoken of half a knot—I have been a pilot sixteen years, conducting large iron screw steamers—I cannot say what means would have avoided the collision—I know there is a rule with crossing vessels, that it is the duty of the vessel that has the other on its starboard side to keep out of the way, but what rule it is I don't know—I heard the captain give the order to put the helm a port, and then I saw the Franconia go with her head stem on into the other vessel.

TIMOTHY HARRINGTON . I am a consulting engineer, of the City of London—I have had great experience with ships, especially iron ships—I have made a careful examination of the Franconia—I examined her in the Victoria Docks, and more recently in the dry dock—on the first occasion she was afloat—in such a case as this you cannot ascertain when she is afloat all the damage a ship may have sustained in a severe collision—it takes several days to carefully survey and ascertain the damage done to a ship similar to the damage done on the present occasion—it is impossible to do much in three-quarters of an hour—I have carefully examined the condition of the collision bulkhead—it was shored up when I saw it—it is not true that there was only one small shoring; there were six shores and two stiffeners tolerably thick and strong—it would take much longer than half an hour to shore up those bulkheads—I do not think anyone could have examined that bulkhead carefully who said that there was only one small shoring—I found on the first occasion the forepart of the ship, from the stem to the collision bulkhead, from the shear streak down to the surface of the water, completely crushed and puckered and bent over—I am speaking of the skin of the ship; I am coming to the bulkhead—a great portion of the plating was crushed, and it fell overboard; all the frames were broken up to the collision bulkhead, and some of the frames of the collision bulkhead itself on the starboard side—the frames on the collision bulkhead were twisted inwards—"puckering" is indentation, and of course the deeper it is indented the weaker it becomes—the collision bulkhead had sustained considerable damage, and there was considerable risk of its giving way, and if it had given way it would have caused serious danger to the ship—there are three water-tight bulkheads in the ship, two are water-tight up to the main deck and one to the lower deck—if the collision bulkhead had given way 533 tons of water would have got into that compartment—I have calculated that carefully—if that quantity of water had got into the ship the next bulkhead would have given way, and in that case the ship would have been in imminent danger—there is an open hatchway in the fore peak which is not water-tight, and if the collision bulkhead had given way that hatchway would have been 2 feet below the level of the water—on my examination before the Coroner I had not been able to get sufficiently low down in the ship to know that the second division was not water-tight, and I assumed that it was water-tight—another surveyor and I went down and found a hole, and found that it was not water-tight, and I found that it was never intended to be water-tight—as regards the bottom of the ship, which I could not examine when she was afloat, I found that the stem was entirely gone—that shook the bulkhead very much—the stem would act as a stay and support to the bulkhead—when it had gone it would not tend to injure the bulkhead, but having given way it started the bottom—the ship making 10,12, and very soon 14 inches of water almost immediately after the collision clearly showed that it had started the bulkhead—supposing the collision bulkhead had given way, what I call the division bulkhead, the hatchway would have got below the level of the sea, and the ship must have gone down in a very short time—the collision bulkhead and the bow must have presented an appearance such as to alarm a captain of ordinary skill; it must have made him believe that the vessel would sink; it certainly was such as to make a careful captain believe that his ship would sink—the shoring of the bulkhead had some effect in strengthening it—if

it had not been shored I think it would have been very risky—it would not have been safe for the ship to have gone ahead with that bulkhead unshored—I think it would have given way—it would, I should say, take ten minutes to launch the steam launch, and she could not be rowed if she were launched—she is too big a thing for two men to row, and it would take at least a quarter of an hour to get up her steam—I saw the Palmer-ston tug, and I know her size—she is large enough to have saved all the lives if she had got to the Strathclyde—if I had seen this collision take place, and had seen the damage to the collision bulkhead, and noticed the water coming through, and had seen the state of the bows, I think a prudent man might have considered it necessary to have beached his vessel—I have no interest whatever in this matter.

Cross-examined by THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL. What I mean to convey is this, if I had been in command of the Franconia and seen the damage she had received I would have steamed away to Dover and let the people drown, and I am as humane a man as most people are—I should certainly have been so much alarmed and felt so much for my crew that I should have felt it my duty—I have heard that three boats were put over the side of the ship and that there were about five others—I do not know whether there were eight, I have not been listening to the evidence—I do not know whether the cap train could have put some of the boats in the the water and put some of his crew into them before he started to Dover—I do not know whether the Franconia's boats would hold the crews of both vessels and all the people in them—the collision bulkhead is a structure for the especial purpose of preventing the water getting into the other part of the ship, supposing a collision occurs and the stem is injured, but not for such a crash as this; that is the object of it; it is a strong bulkhead, made of iron—the Franconia is very strongly built—it would take, I should say, two hours to shore up the bulkhead—it was shored up and it was very efficiently done—I heard the carpenter say that the first thing he did when he went down was to clear away, and then, I suppose he would begin to shore it—there would be a little more pressure if he did it when the vessel was going 8 1/2 knots than when she was at rest, but not very much—I do not know that it would make much difference—there would be a little danger when going through the water at considerable speed, of widening the aperture made in the stem, but not much—twenty-eight plates of the stem were injured, down to the bottom from the shear streak to the keel, fourteen on each side—the plates on the starboard side were very much crushed and puckered, and on the port side there was nothing to prevent any body of water rushing in—I am an engineer, I have not had command of vessels—in my opinion, as an engineer, I do not think the most prudent thing for the time for the Franconia to have done would have been to remain still, for this reason, she was in a tide way, as I understand, and every minute she remained at rest she would he going from shore—the next compartment I speak of was 22 feet further to the stern than the collision bulkhead, and it extends up to the lower deck—there would be an ordinary bulkhead to divide it from the provision hold—I supposed it to be an ordinary bulkhead before I examined it, and I supposed it to be watertight, as it ran on to the main deck; I could not get at it on the first occasion; there were some Custom House things in it on the first occasion, there was a seal on the door, and I could not get in—the collision bulkhead I examined was originally perfectly sound and strong, but not when I examined it; it was started and puckered on the

starboard side in this shape; it would not admit a great quantity of water; if that bulkhead had given way it would probably have been an hour before the vessel sank—I do not say that if the bulkhead gave way the captain of tie Franconia would have had an hour to do whatever he wanted; the ship would have been perfectly unmanageable before that—the boats would have lowered themselves, the vessel would have gone down so rapidly—the crew could have lowered the boats in an hour if they had nothing else to do, if they had not the ship to save and their own lives—when I said before the Coroner "I should be sorry to insure her life more than five hours if the bulkhead had given way," that was assuming that the bulkhead, which I call the divisional bulkhead, had been watertight—if the divisional bulkhead bad been watertight she would have floated five hours.

Re-examined. The craw do not generally remain on board till a ship sinks—the captain was perfectly right in my opinion in taking his vessel towards the land when he saw the Palmerston, steaming towards the Strathclyde— if the Franconia had gone at full speed there would have been serious danger of the collision bulkhead giving way—I should not have allowed the Franconia to have gone at full speed with that bulkhead—I have examined the bulkhead very carefully, and am perfectly astonished at its not giving way, it is next to a miracle that it did not.

By THE JUTY. I think it was a miracle that it did not give way, or that its efficiency was not entirely destroyed—you must not take it that it turned out stronger than I estimated, on the contrary, I found when she was perfectly dry that the danger was much more serious than I at first anticipated, in fact, the bulkhead was merely hanging as it were by a string; had it not been for these shores she must have gone down—it is a difficult question to say how many shores were necessary to take away the imminent danger, and how long it would take to place them—I have explained to you that it was an awkward place to get at—there is a hatch, say 2 feet square, and then you are landed on a place 6 feet deep, and it is very difficult to get the shores down; you cannot get the materials down, there would not be space enough—I do not think shoring alone would take away the imminent danger of the bulkhead giving way, because the sides of the ship were started and we wanted something to take away the strain—it is no use shoring unless you have something to shore against, and the shores which they had got there occupied all the space which you could shore against—there was never in my opinion 15 feet of water inside the ship; certainly not in the bulkhead, nor in any part—I say that, because when water gets into a ship it generally leaves a mark, just as you would see in the tide, and I found no trace of it.

By THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL. I should think there may have been 15 or 16 feet depth of water on the outside of the collision bulkhead, between the bow side of it and the stem—if you were to drop a line down to the bottom of the keel, on the side next the bow, it would be 15 or 16 feet deep, and that portion of the ship from the bulkhead forward to the stem was open to the sea.

By THE COURT. Behind the bulkhead there might be more than 13 or 14 feet for what I know.

EDWARD ROUND BARNARD . I am a consulting marine engineer—the Coroner appointed me as an impartial person to go down and survey the vessel on his behalf, and as far as I possibly could I surveyed her while she was lying afloat in the Victoria Docks—I have since surveyed her in the

dry dock, and have thereby arrived at a more accurate knowledge of her condition—I have heard Mr. Harrington's evidence, and quite agree with it—the collision bulkhead was puckered back 4 inches and the frames were started from the bottom and were cracked in the throat, which is the internal part of the angle, and the rivets were started from the top of the collision bulkhead to the keel on the starboard side—I also examined the bottom of the ship in the dry, dock to the stem—there was considerable clanger of the collision bulkhead giving way when I saw it afterwards—I found it shored up with several wood shores—anybody who says that it was only shored with small shores could not have gone down to examine it at all—there were I think eight pieces of timber—he could not get at it to shore without clearing away—it might take an hour and a half to two hours to do that shoring, it is such a small place to work it—if there had been no shoring I should only have liked to go very slow indeed—the bows of the vessel were entirely gone—I have a rough sketch here in Court—that part of. the ship in front of the collision bulkhead was full of water—I am not at all astonished to hear that there was in the other part of the vessel from 14 to 15 inches of water; the port side where the collision bulkhead came in, was open 1 inch and I put my hand in, and on the other side three-eighths of an inch, it was broken off short—the next was not a watertight compartment, nor was it intended to be—if the collision bulk head had given—way and there was a rush of water, I have no doubt that the next compartment would have given way, and there would have been serious danger to the ship—she would have floated some time, but she could not have been navigated, her helm would have been useless to her—the crew could not have remained on board—if the. two compartments had given way, two hatches would have been under water, she would have gone down rapidly and the water would have come into the main forehold—I have been at sea twelve years—if after this collision I had seen the bulk head in this condition, I should have thought most decidedly that there was danger of its giving way—as captain of that ship, I should have thought that she was in imminent danger; it is easy to be wise after the event—it would take a great number of men to launch the steam-launch; two men could not have moved it with rapidity, nor ten—I know the tug Palmerston well—I have heard that the English pilot on looking at the bows, cried out to the captain to bench his vessel—I heard him say that when he saw the Palmerston standing down towards the Strathclyde, he ordered the engines to go ahead to bring the vessel nearer the land—that was not improper in my opinion—I dare say the Palmerston could carry on her deck 200 people—I also heard that there was a barque and a lugger—the Franconia certainly could not with any consideration for her own safety have gone ahead with that bulkhead injured; the bulkhead would have given way I am certain—having seen its condition I should not have liked to go at any speed with it unshared—I had not seen the ship in dry dock when I gave my evidence, she was in the Victoria Dock, afloat—when I saw her in the dry dock she appeared far more damaged below the water-line than when I saw her afloat—my evidence before the Coroner when I saw her afloat was not the same as today—I had not the opportunity of saying what I say now—it was absolutely necessary to see her in the dry dock, and I remarked that to the Coroner—Captain Black must have been very smart to have ascertained the damage to the collision bulkhead in three-quarters of an hour—I was there on three different occasions; the debris had to be

cleared away, piece by piece; the bulkhead to be cleared away, and it was on my fourth visit that I saw the bottom of the bulkhead—having devoted so much care and time I say that the vessel was in imminent danger before the bulkhead was shored up—it could not have been shored up in half an hour; there were eight shores.

Cross-examined by THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL. They could have done it better when she was still, than when she was going through the water—the screw was going very slow to keep her from going out to sea, and the crew would occupy themselves in shoring it up as quickly as they could to prevent further damage—if I had been the captain I should not have liked to go quickly through the water; I should have gone slowly, but I cannot say that I think I should then have been tolerably safe because it might have given way; not safe for the sea, considering that I should have been on a damaged vessel—if the bulkhead had given way; the hold would hold some 530 tons which would have brought her to the water line, and the water line I calculate from a drawing would come down 20 or 22 feet, and the hatches would both be under water which would fill the other compartment, and the rush of water would come in very fast—if the bulkhead had given way it would perhaps have been a couple of hours before the Franconia went down—when I say "perhaps," that is the opinion I arrive at after making the best calculation in my power—if I had been master of the Franconia, I think I should have thought it prudent to man my boats with part of the crew, and then steamed towards the shore—if that had been done a good many lives might have been saved—I have not heard what the weather was—there was no well into which they pumped the water—the 14 inches of water was from the keel up to the floor, I suppose; all along the vessel, I suppose—there were some powerful pumps and taking those 14 inches of water, in seasonable weather I should probably have stood by and seen whether I could have saved any of the lives, but it is hard to say what you would do on an occasion like this—she was a fairly strong vessel; I have seen stronger—it would take ten minutes or a quarter of an hour to get the steam launch over the side, and when launched she would have been useless—I cannot say whether the other boats could have been got out—a reasonably nimble crew if a boat is properly managed can get her out in about five minutes.

Re-examined. To lower a boat the engines must be stopped, and the tide would carry the vessel away unless she was fitted with patent shifting gear which she was not—if the boats had gone away, perhaps the ship might have been in a reasonable condition of safety for some time; I cannot say for how long—if I had been placed in this position of emergency as captain, I should have thought no doubt that my vessel was in very great danger—I know nothing about any pumps, I merely examined the damage done—I do not suppose the crew would remain on board the whole time that the ship remained afloat, because she would have been going gradually down by the head all the time.

By THE COURT. It would take five minutes per boat to get them out, and with an efficient crew—if the men were at their stations at the boats, I would allow ten minutes to get them all out except the steam launch.

WILLIAM HENRY COUSINS . I am master of the Trinity House steamer Argus—it is my duty to look after the lights and buoys in the London district down to Dover and beyond to the English Channel—I went in February by orders to the wreck of the Strathclyde—her masts were then

above water, and ail (standing—I sank a buoy and a lighter in order to prevent vessels running into collision—I placed a light vessel and a buoy, and then took the bearings of the light vessel and buoy from various places on the land, and made a report of the bearings to the Trinity House for the information of mariners generally—when wrecks of that nature are buoyed advertisements are made—Dover Pier Head bore from the wreck N W W 1/4 W—this (produced) is the chart which I accurately placed—I marked on it at the time the position of the wreck—turning it to the east, Dover Pier Head is S S E 1/4 E; that is, somewhat east of the Pier Head, not to the west.

Cross-examined by THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL. I have not made a very distinct mark, that would occupy too much room—it is this left-hand cross—there are two or three crosses—the wreck is 1 mile and 9 cables from the Pier Head: it is given as 2 miles in the notice to mariners, but that is an approximate thing—I decimal 9 is right; that is 1 mile and 9-10ths—it would depend upon how long the ship was sinking how far she got after her engines were stopped—she would drift some distance—if the tide was setting E N E that would bring the vessel a very little nearer to the laud, almost parallel to the land—having got to the bottom she would never move afterwards—the state of the tide would not drive the Franconia or the Strathclyde out to sea—I have heard two or three different courses as that which the Strathclyde was making, that she was S W by S when left Dover, that she then altered half a point and made it 1/2 S—if the captain started S W by S to get into the offing, and when he saw the vessels approaching each other altered his course to S 1/2 S, that would be altering her course to the west; that would bring her head half a point to the westward—if the Strathclyde, when she started from Dover, was a mile to the east of the Admiralty Pier she would get into the stream if she steered S W by S—I mean into the line of the tide; she would get decidedly to the west of the position she did, but not a great deal to the west—S W by S would bring her 2 miles to the south from the Pier Head—I think I said before the Coroner "If the Strathclyde left a mile east of Dover Pier she would get into the position she has if steering S W by S; if half a mile off the pier she might have come into the same position, but if east of the pier, she could not."

By THE COURT. The result of that would be that if the tide was running straight she might get somewhere near that spot, and if she started straight away from the pier she would have been at a distance from the land two miles eastwards.

GUILTY . Judgment reserved. To enter into recognisances and find sureties to appear and receive judgment when called upon.

NEW COURT.—Wednesday, April 5th, 1876.

Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

Reference Number: t18760403-294

294. ELIZABETH HOCKINGS (35) , PLEADED GUILTY to feloniously marrying John Hockings, her husband being alive— One Month's Imprisonment.

Reference Number: t18760403-295

295. FREDERICK WILLIAM LEWIS (39) , Embezzling the sums of 1l. 19s., 5l. 10s., and I. 11s. 8d., of our Lady the Queen.

MESSRS. POLAND and MOODY conducted the Prosecution; and MR. J. P. GRAIN the Defence.

The Jury, being unable to agree, were discharged without giving any verdict, and the trial of the case was postponed to the next Session,

Reference Number: t18760403-296

296. DANIEL SCULLY (26) , Robbery with violence, with two others, on John Conrad, and stealing a watch and chain, his property.

MR. MOODY conducted the Prosecution.

JOHN CONRAD . I am a cigar maker of 30, Albert Street, Shadwell—on 28th February, between 11 and 12 o'clock at night, I was going along; Cable Street, Whitechapel—three men met me—I think the prisoner is one of them—as soon as they met me they parted, one turned to my left, the other two kept on my right, and I felt one tear my coat open, and I felt a smash across my bead—I could not exactly say that the prisoner is that man but he is very much like him—I became senseless there and then and fell—I hallooed "Police!"at the time he struck me—I came to and some ladies gave me some water and bathed my head—I was taken to the hospital and was there four weeks—I felt two blows on my head and then remember no more—one of the men wore a cap.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. I took notice of the three men as I was passing, I had some suspicion—I should recognise one of them if I was to meet him—it was not far from a lamp, which shone on their faces—I say you are very much like one of them but I am not quite sure; I have positive belief in my own mind that you are the man that struck me.—

By THE COURT. I lost my watch and chain—I was wearing a high hat and that has never been seen since.

ARTHUR SPRINGHALL (Policeman K 86). I was called to the prosecutor—I found him lying on the ground bleeding; he appeared to be coming round then, they were bathing his head with water from a pail—I took him to the hospital—some one in the crowd gave me this cap, and Mrs. Bolan gave me this broken life preserver—I handed them to Superintendent Rouse.

HANNAH NAIRN . I am the wife of Andrew Nairn, of 237, Cable Street—on the night of 28th February, between 11 and 12 o'clock, I heard a voice in broken English in the street say "You have stolen my watch," and he then called "Police!"and I heard three heavy blows—I went to my window and looked out and saw the prosecutor lying on a grating on the opposite side of the road and a man was stooping over him, emptying his pockets and putting into his own whatever he took from him—I raised the window, and the man who was robbing stood up erect and looked at me, he had no hat on—he then ran, and as he ran he stooped and picked up a hat that was lying on the pavement and put it on, it was a large felt hat, a wide awake.—the prosecutor made a mistake in saying it was a high hat, it was a round hat: he speaks very bad English—I believe the prisoner to be the man that robbed him, although I could not swear to him—I picked him out of about twenty at the police-station that night or the next, and I feel confident in my own mind that he is the man; there was a lamp very close and it shone on his face as he stooped to pick up the hat and it is a face once seen not forgotten.

Cross-examined. I could not say how long the man was picking the other's pocket, it might be a minute or two, it was long enough for me to have a good view of you and if I could have put on my clothes quick enough I' would have had you and held you till I dropped—I saw your face as you picked up the hat and I recognise your features.

ANN STACEY . I am the wife of Charles Stacey, of 203, Cable Street—

on this night, about 11.30, I heard a cry and went to the window and saw two men knock the prosecutor up against the wall and one ran away, apparently as if he had taken the watch and chain—the other one stayed behind and gave him three violent blows on the head, he fell down and lay as if dead—I ran downstairs—he was lying insensible—the man ran away, and as he ran he picked up the prosecutor's hat—the prisoner very much represents the man that gave the blows.

Cross-examined. I said at Arbour Square that I could not swear to you, but I firmly believe you are the man; I saw your side face, and as you ran you dropped this life preserver.

HARRIET BOLAN . I live at 248, Cable Street, nearly opposite Mrs. Nairn—on this night, between 11 and 12 o'clock, I was in my kitchen on the ground floor—1 heard a noise outside and opened the door and looked out—I saw the prosecutor lying on the ground, bleeding, and a man in the distance running away—I picked up this cap, it was lying just by the prosecutor's head, I gave it to the policeman—this life preserver was picked up just by the gutter and given to me, and I gave it to the constable.

GEORGE WOOD . I am a pawnbroker, of 110, St. George's Street—on Monday night, 28th February, about 11 o'clock, I was outside the Hoop and Grapes, next door to my house, and saw the prisoner and two more with him; it was about 200 yards from Mr. Bolan's—they were moving about among some sailors who were quarrelling—the prisoner was wearing this hat—I had seen him several times before about the neighbourhood—I had seen him and one or two more rob a man fifteen or sixteen days before—I have seen him two or three evenings a week always about the same place—on the morning of the 1st or 2nd March McKay, the detective, brought me this cap; I knew it, and gave a description of the prisoner.

Cross-examined. I noticed the cap because I thought it looked a handy cap to double up and put in your pocket, and then put on another, so that nobody should identify you—I never saw a cap like it—I did not give you in charge when I saw you commit the robbery; if I was to give everybody in charge that I see commit robberies in Ratcliffe Highway I should never be in my own shop at all—I pointed you out to McKay.

JOHN ROUSE (Police Inspector K). Springhall gave me this cap and stick, and I gave them to McKay—I was present when Mrs. Nairn and Mrs. Stacey were brought to the station—twelve or fourteen persons were brought in and placed round the library; some were got out of the street and some from a neighbouring public-house, working men—I did not take charge of the identification; I was present.

Cross-examined. Mrs. Nairn said you resembled the man; she asked to look at your back, as she thought she should know the man as well by his back.

DONALD MCKAY (Policeman KR 64) I received information of the robbery on the 29th February—this cap and this weapon were given to me by Mr. Rouse at 9.30 in the morning—I took the cap to Mr. Wood about half an hour after—I took the prisoner into custody on the evening of the 1st March at 8.30 in St. George's Street—Mr. Wood pointed him out to me I told him I should charge him, with others, with robbing and assaulting a man the other night in Cable Street—he said "Oh, I had bold of him by the collar"—he said "Don't collar me"—I said "No, but I will cuff you"—I got hold of the sleeve of his coat—he said "Oh, who will pay for my day's work?"—I said "I have no doubt you will get paid for two or three

days' work"—he went quietly until we got to the corner of Angel Gardens—he then unbuttoned his coat one button and made a dart to get away—I buttoned up his coat and got hold of him by the collar; he went a few yards, when he partly slipped his coat and ran away down Angel Gardens into a house—I followed calling out "Stop thief!"—he came out of the door on his knees and went between my legs—with the assistance of another constable and a sailor I got him to the station—he was afterwards put in the library with several others, and the witnesses pointed him out—he said "I will prove where I was on that night."

HENRY UPGOOD . I was house-surgeon at the London Hospital when the prosecutor was brought there—he was suffering from six wounds on the head, three of which were severe and dangerous—three were simply scalp wounds; the first three laid bare the bone and damaged it—there was no evidence of fracture of the skull; the danger was from inflammation inside the scalp—he continued in a dangerous condition for some time—he was more than three weeks in the hospital, and is still under my care—the three severe wounds might have been produced by this instrument; the other three might have been caused by a-fall.

The prisoner in Jus defence denied the charge, and stated that the witnesses had been induced by the police to identify him.


He was further charged with a previous conviction in February, 1869, to which he PLEADED GUILTS. Other convictions were proved against him— Fifteen Years' Penal Servitude, and twenty strokes with the cat:

Reference Number: t18760403-297

297. THOMAS SIMMONDS (24) , Breaking and entering the shop of Thomas Sharwood, and stealing therein six pencil cases and a locket, his property."

MR. A. METCALFE conducted the Prosecution; and MR. SIMS the Defence.

SIDNEY PLOUGHMAN . I am assistant to Mr. Sharwood, a pawnbroker, of 183, St. John Street Road—on 10th March, about 9.20 p.m., I heard a crash outside the shop—I ran out and saw a man running away, I ran after him and caught him—it was the prisoner—I took him back to the shop, and these four watches, a locket, and an eyeglass, were shown to me which had been safe in my shop, about 12 inches from the glass—the prisoner's hand was very much cut—he did not appear excited—he made no answer to the charge—I should say that he was sober.

Cross-examined. I did not dress the window that morning—I do not take the things out at night—the watches were suspended on hooks, about a foot and a half above the window board—this is one of the hooks (produced).

Re-examined. I dressed the window a fortnight before.

WILLIAM HUMPHREYS . I am an assistant to Mr. Sharwood—I heard a crash on 10th March—when I was outside I looked on the ground in front of the shop and found four watches, a silver pencil case, and a locket—the watches were greatly damaged, the glasses were broken, the believes bent, and otherwise damaged.

Cross-examined. There were a few people outside,' and among them a witness who caught the prisoner—I picked up the pencil case, and the locket was given to me.

GEORGE JACKSON (Policeman). I took the prisoner from Ploughman, and told him the charge, he made no reply—his left hand was cut in four places—he did not appear excited, he was quite calm, and I believe he was sober.

Cross-examined. I took him direct to the station—he was quite calm,

though I took him immediately after he had run away—I knew that he had come out of a lunatic asylum, within a week—this was on Friday, and he had only been discharged on the Tuesday—he was at Colney Hatch a year and eight months—I do not know that he began drinking when be came to.

He-examined. There is no doctor here from the asylum, that I am aware of.

ROBERT MASON . I live at 19, Home Road, Battersea—on 10th March, about 9.20, I saw the prisoner deliberately break this window with his fist,' which he put right through it—he ran towards me, I caught him round the waist, he knocked me down, hurt my knee, cut two of my fingers and got away.

Cross-examined. He could see me before he did it—other persons were there—it was a very deliberate act.


He was further charged with hiving been convicted of felony at the Mansion House, in March, 1874, to which he

PLEADED GUILTY Six Months' Imprisonment.

FOURTH COURT.—Wednesday, April 5th, 1876.

Before Robert Malcolm Kerr, Esq.

Reference Number: t18760403-298

298. FREDERICK WATTS (28) , PLEADED GUILTY to burglariously breaking and entering the dwelling-house of Henry Day and stealing therein one coat and 3l. 15s., having been previously convicted— Seven Years' Penal Servitude and.

Reference Number: t18760403-299

299. WALTER JOYCE (57) , to stealing id. from the person of William Cross, having been previously convicted—. Ten Years' Penal Servitude. [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]

Reference Number: t18760403-300

300. ELIZA HARRIS (40) , Stealing from the person of Louisa Price 1l.

MR. HUMPHRIES conducted the Prosecution; and MR. SIMS the Defence.

LOUISA PRICE . I live at 52, Conduit Street—about 7 o'clock on the 15th March I got into an omnibus at Regent Circus—the prisoner sat on my right side—I felt a pressure at my side and put my hand down—she said to me "This gentleman takes up a good deal of room"—I looked round and she stopped the omnibus—her manner looked suspicious, and I put my hand in my pocket and found I had lost my money, about 10s. 6d.—I charged her with robbery, and she denied being in the omnibus at all.

Cross-examined. The omnibus was very full—there was not a boy standing—I put the money into my pocket just before I went out of my house—it was not in a purse, but loose in my pocket—a half-sovereign and silver—I could not say how many pieces altogether—I got out of the omnibus behind this woman—she got out first—I think I sat second from the door and she would be third—there were other ladies opposite—I was dressed exactly as I am now—my money was in an outside pocket.

DAVID KING (Policeman D 73.) On the 15th March soon after seven o'clock I was called to an omnibus—the last witness gave the prisoner in charge for picking her pocket—I took her to the station—she was searched and there was found upon her 1s. 6d. in silver and 5 1/2d. in bronze.


Reference Number: t18760403-301

301. THOMAS WILLIAMSON (48) , Burglary in the dwelling-house of Frank Sutton Hawes, and stealing seventeen spoons and other articles.

MR. HUMPHRIES conducted the Prosecution.

HENRY WALLER (Policeman S 376). At 1.35 on the morning of the 20th February I was in company with Constable S 323, in Charles Street, Portland Town—I saw the prisoner spring from a wall—I caught him and asked him the meaning of coming over that wall, he said "You did not see me come over"—I said "My eyes deceived me if you did not"—I took him back, and he said he went in the door—I said "If you did go in the door, why did not you come out that way"—he then said he had been to see a man, a. friend of his—after all he said "To tell the truth I have been there to see a young woman and did not want to get her into trouble"—I told him he would have to explain the reason in coming out in such a manner—in taking him back from where he came I noticed something sticking out of his pocket, and I found all round his waist these tools, and I also found on him this card case, in which were six duplicates relating to new property—he said at the station had he known what we were going to do he would have made a run for it."

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. I saw you jump from the wall—you were 80 yards from the wall when I took you.

ELIZABETH LAMB . I live at 79; Avenue Road, St. John's Wood, and am in the service of Mr. Frank Sutton Hawes—on the 20th February I fastened the window securely, and on the next morning I found the house had been entered and the property had been stolen—this card case (produced) is Mr. Hawes' property—the house had been entered by the window—I am sure I had fastened it the night before.

Cross-examined by Prisoner. I know the card case—there is no particular mark on it—this is like it.

FRANK SUTTON HAWES . I live at 79, Avenue Road—I was called up at 6.30 on the morning of the 5th February, and found the house had been entered—I can identify this card case as my property—there are hundreds like it—I have compared the marks made on the window, by which the entry has been effected, with these tools, and they exactly fit—a box of matches or more were burnt; the matches do not correspond with the box left behind.

Cross-examined by Prisoner. I have no particular mark on the card case—it was new, and this is new—no doubt a dozen might have been bought at the same place.

Prisoner's Defence. The tools there I get my living by. On the Saturday I went out to work and got drinking. I left those tools at where I stopped in the evening. I fell asleep, and when I came out the policeman saw me take them. I did not steal them; the woman that is locked up has got a card case, the same as that one, and she was to come here with it, and get some one to defend me.


There was another indictment against the prisoner for being found by night with certain housebreaking implements in his possession, upon which no evidence was offered.


Reference Number: t18760403-302

302. CHARLES FREDERICK COLE (30) , Stealing, on the 11th of September, 1875, 2s. 6d.; on the 13th September, is. 3d.; on the 11th September, 1s. 1d., monies received by him on account of a certain copartnership called the Journeymen Carvers' Trade Society, of which he was a member.

MESSRS. J. P. GRAIN and TICKELL conducted the Prosecution.

GEORGE BOX . I live at 18, Great Coram Street—I am a member of the

Journeymen Carvers' Trade Society—the meetings are held at the Crown, Cleveland Street, Fitzroy Square—they meet every Monday—I paid 2s. 6d. to the prisoner on the 11th September, 1875; he is secretary to the society—this (produced) is the receipt I received from the prisoner in acknowledgment of the sum—it is dated 11th September—the money was sent by post-office order.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. I have a difficulty in remembering dates—on the quarterly night, October 4, 1875, my memory will not allow me to say that I paid you 2s.—you called at my house afterwards, but you never said "I have paid 5s. more than you paid me."

FREDERICK TALBOT . I live at 46, Norfolk Road, Essex Road—I am a member of this society—William Knight and James Gibson, are also members—I have seen them there taking part in the proceedings—on the 13th September, I paid 4s. 3d. to the prisoner—I paid Mr. Knight's and Mr. Gibson's money and my own—afterwards I had a conversation with a man, named Fernay, and on the 27th September, 1875, I paid a further sure to the prisoner of 1s. 1d.

By THE COURT. I paid money to him as secretary, who had authority to receive money. (The prisoner handed in a copy of the rules referring to a rule which stated that the secretary was not authorised to receive money.) It was the practice to pay the secretary the money.—

THOMAS FERNAY . I live at 22, Wellington Street, Oakley Square—I am the check steward of this society—I was in that capacity on 13th September, 1875, and on 11th September, 1875, the prisoner did not account to me for 2s. 6d. paid him on 11th September—that would not be a club night—it would be the 13th, he did not hand me any such sum, the next meeting would be the 20th—at this meeting he never accounted to me for 4s. 3d—I afterwards communicated with Mr. Talbot—on 27th September, the prisoner did not account to me for 1s. 1d.—on 13th September, 1875, I heard the prisoner say he was very short of money, and he should have had a holiday that day, if he had sufficient money in his pocket.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. I have occasionally known you to be late—it is part of my duty to receive money and sign-cards—you are not putting it nice and straightforwardly in asking me if it is possible for you to see what money I receive by the position of the desk.

By THE COURT. He has been secretary, between nine and ten years—this is the first arrear that has been found out—there is no arrear book. (The prisoner stated to the Court that there was an arrear book amongst others, all of which he demanded to be produced). There is a minute book, but it disappeared on the night of this offence—the secretary pro tern took the prisoner's keys, and he can tell what books there were.

WILLIAM HENRY HOWARD . I live at 12, Southerton, Road, Hammersmith—I am one of the committee of this society—I have been secretary since 4th October, 1875—I produce the secretary's book and the check steward's book—I have investigated the books and checked them—it was the prisoner's duty to enter in his book the—subscriptions he received—I cannot tell whether I can find any mention of the sum of 2s. 6d., on 11th September, paid by George Box; except by his card—the minute book is lost—we have not got an arrear book—there is nothing about arrears—the only knowledge 1 have of arrears is from some slips of paper left by the late secretary—he made out a list of arrears, in my opinion it is no use at all—it does happen that frequently there is a number of arrears, and it is

then the secretary's duty to make them out—I have attended the meetings previously and heard of arrears—not publicly but privately.

Re-examined. There is no entry in the secretary's book of the sum of half a crown paid by Box, of 11th September, nor is there an entry of 4s. 3d. paid by Frederick Talbot, on 13th September, 1875, nor is there anything entered to Knight or Gibson—I find no entry on 27th September, 1875, paid by Talbot for Fernay—I have looked also through the check steward's book and find no entry of those sums there—these are the only we have—the others I have not seen to my knowledge; I took possession of the key and the desk.

By the Prisoner. There is an entry of 7s. 4d. in your book, October 4th of last year, Box's name—his card has 2s. 4d. upon it.


Reference Number: t18760403-303

303. CHARLES FREDERICK COLE (30) was again indicted for feloniously embezzling and stealing 2s. 2s., and is. 6d., received on account of the same society.

GEORGE BOX . On the 8th December, 1873, I was at work in Deddington—on that date I was indebted to the society my subscription of 2s—I sent it to the prisoner at the bar by post-office order—this card (produced) "contains all the dates on which payments are to be made, and payments are filled in by the secretary—I did not send my cards, they were filled in afterwards, when I came to London—on the 2nd February, 1874, I was still in Deddington—March, 2s. 6d.—I sent all the sums by post-office order. (Card handed to witness.) They are entered by the prisoner here—this, is his receipt for the money.

Cross-examined by Prisoner. I was at the special meeting when you were taxed with these defalcations—you might have said "Get out my books and I will prove I do not owe the money."

GEORGE HUMPHREYS . In April,. 1872, and to 1874 I was "check" steward—the prisoner was the, secretary—our meetings were weekly, Monday—nights—the prisoner's duty with reference to myself was to book all monies in the secretary's book, which he kept himself—he would take money occasionally from a member—it was my duty to receive money, not strictly his duty—if he received money it was his duty to hand it to me, and book it in his own—(referring to look) there is an entry down here of 2s. received on the 8th December—the secretary had sole control of the book; no, one ever had anything to do with it—the books have been bound up since 1873 every quarter. (The prisoner handed to the Court part of a balance-sheet, which stated that an amount of 3l. 0s., 4 1/2d. was in the secretary's hands). The secretary was allowed to retain money—he had no right to retain money for the purpose of petty cash received by him from members—there is an entry in this book (referring) on the 8th December of 2s. received from Box—there is an entry on the 2nd February, 1874, of 2s. from. George. Box—in this book—(Referring to another) there is no entry of this in the other book—on the 2nd March, 1874, there is no entry—the entries. shoulder be made in both books, the prisoner reporting to me all monies received—there are no totals in the prisoner's book, and he has been, nine years, in the society.


NEW COURT.—Thursday, April 6th, 1876.

Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

Reference Number: t18760403-304

304. HENRI HERVE (39), NICOLA CLAUSE (35), and GABRIEL HERVE (42), PLEADED GUILTY to unlawfully obtaining from Alphonse Hypolite Foncon, by false pretences, ten promissory notes, each for the pay. ment of 5,000 francs, with intent to injure him— Five Years' Penal Servitude each.

Reference Number: t18760403-305

305. ELIZA BOTTOMLEY (19) was indicted for wilful and corrupt perjury.

MESSRS. J. P. GRAIN and HORACE AVORY conducted the Prosecution.

This case arose on a charge of rape preferred by the prisoner against James Mausley, the Grand Jury having ignored the bill. The particulars were unfit for publication.

GUILTYJudgment respited.

Reference Number: t18760403-306

306. FRANK POWER (25) (a black), Feloniously cutting and wounding Richard Goodwin, with intent to do him some grievous bodily harm.

MR. MEAD conducted the Prosecution.

RICHARD GOODWIN . I live with my father and mother, at 2, Escott's Cottage, Poplar—before this occurred Margaret Carcass had been living in the house—I came home on the 17th at 12.30 p.m., the morning of the 18th, and the prisoner was in the parlour with my father—I heard a scream from my mother, who was upstairs, and Margaret Carcass with her, who had come for her clothes—the prisoner then went to run upstairs, but I—pulled him down and put him out of the house—I sat down for a quarter of an hour, and then went out and found the prisoner standing outside—he struck me on my shoulder and ran away—I did not know that I was stabbed, and ran after him and caught him—he hugged me and threw me down and cut me on the head and round the neck—the wound on my head is still bad; that is why I am wearing a bandage—I was under the doctor's care more than a week—I bled a great deal, and have not been able to do anything since—my shoulder and neck are healed, but my head is not quite healed yet.

ANN GOODWIN . I am the prosecutor's stepmother—I recollect Margaret Carcas coming for her clothes—I asked her up into my room—the prisoner came up, and I sent him down again—after that I had a qnarrel with her—I afterwards heard a kicking at the door, and my name called out—my Bon was then brought in.

ROSE PEARCE . I live at 17, Cubits Street, Millwall—on the 18th March, about 12.15, I heard a scream outside my house—I went out and saw the prisoner lying on the prosecutor, who was on the ground with his head covered with blood—he was calling out—I gave the alarm to Mrs. Goodwin—the prisoner ran away, and the prosecutor was taken into his house.

THOMAS WOODS (Policeman K 634). On the morning of the 18th March I heard a noise in Cable Street, and saw the prisoner running up the street—I asked him what he had in his hand—he-said "I took that to save my life," and dropped this knife—there was blood on it, and two of the blades were open—I kept him.

DANIEL HERBERT BASKERVILLE . I am a surgeon—I found the prosecutor suffering from a. scalp wound about 4 inches long and going down to the bone, and a stab in his left shoulder about 4 inches wide and an inch and a half deep—I attended him a fortnight; he is out of danger now—the wounds did not touch, but they were near to vital parts, and there is always danger of erysipelas—the wound on the neck would have been very dangerous if it had been deeper, because it was within one-eighth of an inch of the carotid artery, and the one on the arm was close to the auxiliary artery

—if those parts had been injured they would have been highly dangerous, and, supposing, he had a bad constitution, they might have been fetal—he lost a great deal of blood, and I could not allow him to go to the police-court on the first remand because he was so weak.

Prisoner's Defence. I went with my friend, a young woman, to get my clothes from Mrs. Goodwin's; she and Mrs. Goodwin went upstairs; I waited down stairs ten minutes and heard a scream, the prosecutor went up, and I saw the young woman fall downstairs, and the prosecutor and another man beating her; I interfered and the three of them jumped on me, and pushed me outside; I pulled out my knife and said "If any of you come you may have this." I had hardly said it when he took me by the neck, and sang out to him to-let go of me, he would not, and then I cut him in defending myself because three of them were trying to choke me.

Witness for the Defence

MARGARET CARCAS . I am unfortunate—I went upstairs with Mrs. Goodwin, we had a quarrel—she struck me and I struck her, again—she called for her husband, he did not come, but Jack Shaw came up and struck me, and then he shoved me downstairs and struck me again; the prisoner told him not to hit me, and then Shaw rushed on him, struck him, and shoved him outside—there were three of them, Goodwin, Shaw, and another—the two others came back, but Goodwin stopped outside with the prisoner—I afterwards saw him come in bleeding from the neck—I did not see what cause it.

GUILTY Eighteen Months' Imprisonment.

Reference Number: t18760403-307

307. JOHN SALE (24) , Robbery with other persons unknown, on John McGowan, and stealing from his person, one watch and guard, his property.

MR. MEAD conducted the Prosecution; and MR. W. SLEIGH the Defence.

JOHN McGOWAN . I am a surveyor, of 34, Charles Street, Caledonian Road—on February, about 12.30 a.m., I was in the City Road, and received a kick on my legs from behind—that did not make me fall—I turned round and saw three men behind me walking deliberately after me—I was struck by one of them on my lip which cut it—I was immediately knocked, down on my face and my shoulder put out, and my right eye cut nearly across—they turned me over on my back to gel at my watch which they took, and a portion of my chain—this, other portion (produced) was left in my fingers—the prisoner is one of the men who was stooping over me—I did not cry out, but Mr. Clark came and shouted "Police" and "Murder," and the three men went away—a policeman came sometime afterwards—I was taken in a cab to the hospital, where my shoulder was set in half an hour—I then returned home in a cab—I remained in bed for a month, and have been ill ever since—on; 11th February, Haydon. brought four men to my bedroom and I pointed out the prisoner who was one of them—I think he said that he was not one of the men, but I am sure he is.

Cross-examined. I was not knocked senseless—the men were close up against the wall, and so was I—the prisoner was brought to my bedside five or six days afterwards—I do not know who the others were, but I had known, one of them by sight before—I think one of the others was something like the prisoner—the detective told me he had taken a man and was going to bring him for me to identify—they followed one another into my room, and I think the prisoner was the last—I looked very hard at him. and pointed him out saying "That is one of the three"—I may have said at first "I believe that is one of the men who knocked me down," but looked

at them a second time and said that I had no doubt—the detective may have been in the room when I said that I believed, but I did not know him—I do not know whether the man who told me that he had taken a man in custody, brought the four men into my room, there were two or three detectives in the room, I believe—I will not swear that I knew Haydon—he is the detective in charge of the case at present, but he is not the party who came to me at first—I wont swear whether he is the party who told me that he had got a prisoner in custody—it was a beautiful night when the assault took place, if it had been dark I should have ridden home—I don't think I heard Clark's evidence at the police-court—I what not fit to remain after I had given my evidence, and the prisoner had the witnesses ordered out; I have seen Clark since his examination, and have very likely spoken to him about this case—he did not tell me that it was a dark night—I think It was a fine night and clear—I could see people on the opposite side of the street—I wont swear that it was moonlight or starlight—my vision was perfectly clear—I had no drink to injure me; I might have had a glass or two of ale, but no spirits since Christmas—I was as sober as I am now.

He-examined. When the three men knocked me down they were not in the shade of the wall, but in the centre of the street—the four men were all present at my bedside before I picked out the prisoner—I said at first that I believed he was one of the three men; I then had another look and said that he was one of the men.

EDWARD CLARK . I live at 160, Pentonville Road—on the morning of February 5th I was in the City Road, and as I was crossing I saw the prosecutor lying in the centre of the footway—I almost passed him, as I was thinking—I partly raised him, but he was very heavy—I asked him what was the matter and saw this piece of chain hanging on one of his fingers and his left thumb was broken and turned up with the knuckle joint showing—I called "Police!"and hailed a cab.

Cross-examined. It was a dark spot, but it was a fine, clear night—I cannot say whether it was moonlight or starlight—I have been a teetotaller for twenty years—there was not a lamp near—he did not look drunk or senseless, he looked very much injured, he was lying on his side, and I fancied I heard a groan—after I had partly raised him he spoke to me—I believe I said at the police-court that I was looking on the ground and meditating—I was deep in thought" and my eyes were on the ground—I should have had a little superhuman strength if the fellow had caught me.

BENJAMIN DIAMOND (Policeman G 282). I found the prosecutor in charge of Mr. Clark—I put him in a cab and took him to the hospital—I could see is features at that spot and I saw Clark and recognised him afterwards.

WILLIAM HAYDON (Detective Officer G). On 11th February I took the prisoner and charged him with this offence—he said "I know nothing about it"—I went with him to McGowan's who I found in bed—I waited outside till we could get four other persons to place the prisoner with, and then I told him that he could stand wherever he chose so that it was not unfair—McGowan was then awoke by his wife and asked if he could identify among those five men any man he saw in the City Road—he looked at the prisoner and said "I believe that is the man who was with the other two and robbed me of my watch and chain"—he then laid down in bed again—I asked him to look again and he said "I still maintain that that is one of the three"—the prisoner said "Be very careful, it is a very serious thing for me"—McGowan said "Little did you think of that when you knocked me down

and put me in the state you see now—the prisoner said "I know nothing about it, you have made a mistake."

Cross-examined. I mentioned at the police-court that he lay down in bed and I asked him to get up and look a second time—I signed my depositions but I did not read them—I believe that statement was in them when they were read over to me—I swear that I gave that evidence—this is what I said "I believe that is one of the men who knocked me down in the City Road and robbed me of my watch and chain"—I gave my evidence first at the police-court, and the prosecutor gave his afterwards, there were three remands—I heard him say something about the second identification—I first saw him when I took the prisoner there—I stood behind the four men and the prosecutor's face was towards me.

Witnesses for the Defence.

JOHN HARVEY . I am a fishmonger, of 37, Bed Lion Street, Clerkenwell—I have known the prisoner eighteen months or two years by sight, but not as a customer—on the morning of 5th February, two or three minutes after midnight, he came into my shop to buy some fish—he did not stay any time, only just while he was served, he took the fish away with him.

Cross-examined by MR. MEAD. People eat fish in my shop—I have a refreshment license—two men named Monk, were there that night they both ordered some fish, they did not speak to the prisoner, they came in before him, and the three were in the shop at the same time—I was., first asked to give evidence on 2nd March, eight or nine days after this occurred—a female friend of the prisoner came to me—I knew him by sight and knew his name—I do not recollect everybody who comes, into my shop, but this was the first time the prisoner came there—I did not give evidence till March, because I could not leave my business—the Monks ordered about 6d. worth of fish"; they were in the habit of coming there; they said that they were going to have a glass of ale, and when they came back my shop was shut up.

By THE COURT. I have seen the female, who called on me in the prisoner's company; she asked me first whether I remembered John Sale being in the shop on the morning of the 5th, and I said "Yes" she did not name the hour—she asked me to go as a witness and told me why—that was the first I had heard of his being charged—I had no reason to remember it before that—I cannot tell you what customers came in between 12 o'clock and 12.30 on the 3rd or 6th February, but I could if my. attention had been cnen called to it, unless they were strangers.

By MR. W. SOEIGH. I can give you' the names of persons who were in my shop last Saturday night—Mr. Yougal, landlord of the Red Lion is one—I cannot remember the names of others, there are so many I did not take notice—I recollect the prisoner, because he was a new customer—the Monks came in first and went out first.

By THE COURT. I knew his name, because his father had been a tenant under my father-in-law some years, and I have called and taken the rent and seen him on several occasions—that is more than knowing him by sight—I knew who his father was and knew him as John Sale—fix the time, because it was near my closing time—my shop is about, quarter of an hour's walk from Charles Street, City Road.

JAMES MONK . I am "a general house engineer, of 19, Berkley Street, Clerkenwell—I manage my father's business—on the morning of 5th February, just before 12.30 I was with my brother in Harvey's shop and

ordered some fish to be got ready for me—I know the prisoner by sight, but I never spoke to him—he was there, but I did not hear him order anything—I was just sauntering out of the shop and he came in; only it was done in a slow manner, because my brother and I were joking—I did not speak to the prisoner—I did not know his name till I was summonsed—I have known him for years and years about the neighbourhood.

Cross-examined. I gave my evidence on 2nd March—I was summonsed nine or ten days before that—I read it in a Sunday paper first that the prisoner was arrested, and I knew that it referred to him, because Harvey and two others said that it was Turco's brother, and I knew his brother by that name—they said that he was the man who was in the fish shop on a certain day—that was four or fire days after I was in the fish shop—it might have been a fortnight after I was in the fish shop that I next saw the prisoner—I recollected that it was the morning of 5th February—I have been into Harvey's shop since to Day fish—I went there last night, and I dare say I went the week before, but I cannot name any day—I I cannot say whether I went there on 12th March.

Re-examined. I may have gone on 12th January—I remember so strongly that it was February 5th, because we ordered some fish to be made ready and we never went back for it, and next day he bowled us up for it.

By THE COURT. What I said in the paper was headed "A candidate for the cat"—I knew Turco and knew his brother by sight, but I had not spoken to him—I did not know that Turco was named Sale, but I connected. him with Sale because Harvey said "Don't you remember coming into the shop on the night you did not come back for your fish"—I said "Yes," and one or another hearing what we were talking about I got summonsed to appear on his behalf—I connected Turco's brother with John Sale, because Harvey pointed out to me that it was John Sale.

HENRY MONK . I am a locksmith and gasfitter, of 19, Berkeley Street, Clerkenwell—I have known the prisoner by sight only as long as I can remember—I saw him in Harvey's shop on Saturday morning, 5th February, two or three minutes before 12.30—I remember the date, because my brother and I ordered' Borne fish and we never went back for it, and the same day he reprimanded us for it.

Cross-examined. He reprimanded us in the morning or the afternoon, or it may have been at my dinner hour—I can't "say, because it is too long ago—I recollect that it was Saturday, because I was paid on that day which made it strong in my mind—I was first asked about it when" my brother was subpœnaed, which was one day in the next week—I was in Harvey's shop last Thursday evening—I do not know whether I was" there on 11th March.

By THE COURT. I did not see the case in the paper—my brother said "You remember such and such a person being in the shop on Friday night?"—I said "Yes," and he "You remember the prisoner"—by the prisoner I understood the man they had in custody, John Sales—I don't know whether my brother knew him by name then, but he named him, and I said "I don't know him"—he said "You will have to come to the police-court"—I said "Why?"—he said "Because you were with me on that night"—I said "All right, I will go with you," and I went with him—whatever I know about the name I learned from my brother—my brother had not told me anything about seeing Mr. Harvey, or about having seen it

report of the case in the paper, or how he knew the man's name—I see Harvey every day—I went to the police-court and recognised the prisoner as the man who was in the shop, but I did not recognise him by name.

BENJAMIN DIAMOND (re-called). It was between 12.40 and 12.45 when I put the prosecutor into the cab, it was exactly 1 o'clock when I arrived at the hospital.

WILLIAM HAYDON (re-examined). I could walk the nearest way from Harvey's shop to New Charles Street in ten minutes—it is at the end of Red Lion Street, leading into Clerkenwell Green.


FOURTH COURT—Thursday, April 6th, 1876.

Before Robert Malcolm Kerr, Esq.

Reference Number: t18760403-308

308. CHARLES FREDERICK COLE (30), was again indicted (see page 518) for embezzling and stealing 7s., 5s., 11 1/2d., and 6s. received by him on account of the Journeyman Carvers' Trade Society.

MESSRS. BESLEY and TICKELL conducted the Prosecution.

WILLIAM GIBBS . I live at Dorchester Street, New North Road, and am a member of the Jurneymen Carvers' Trade Society—the prisoner was the secretary—I used to see. him sometimes attend the meetings of the society, acting as secretary—the subscriptions were paid upon cards of this kind—there is an entry on the 26th, which I paid on Sunday, the 25th October, 1874—I gave him 7s., he signed the card, he put in the figures himself—on Sunday, the 3rd January, 1875, I paid him another sum, it is entered on the 4th—on the 4th, April, 1875, a Sunday, I paid Mm 6s., it is entered on the 5th, he put in the amount and initialed the card.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. I knew at the time I paid you the money that you were obliging me by receiving it to save me the trouble of attending—I said "Take my money for me and pay it in to-morrow night—I do not know that you are not supposed to receive money.

THOMAS FERNAY . I am a member of this society, and I acted as check steward since July, 1874—I was present at the meeting of the society upon the 26th October, 1874—the prisoner was there as secretary, and I acted as check steward—he paid the 1s. entered here on the 26th October—there is no entry of 7s. on that night—there is no entry on the 4th January, 1875, of 5s. 11l. 1/2d.—there is no accounting for the sum of 6s. paid on the 5th April, 1875—at the time I wrote down Cole 1s.—the prisoner gave me his own subscription—all money I received was written down "by me.

Cross-examined. You have been frequently late and had to sign cards—I remember one occasion when you came in late and I had to take the money and place the amounts on slips of paper—it is no part of—your duty to receive money—on one occasion I have been to you on a Sunday to hand you money to save me the trouble of going upon the Monday following—I was present, on the night of the 4th October, when your minute-book was read to the society—you said to the members "Produce the books, and I will show I do not owe the money"—very likely you have said the same at the committee meeting—I cannot swear the books were there that night, nor that you read the minutes over—it is, I believe, the "business of the secretary to read the minutes over—it was put before the society that you should be excused reading the minutes.

WILLIAM HENRY HOWARD . I am a member of this society and one of the committee—I have been acting as secretary since the 4th October when the defendant was discharged—I have got the secretary's book, which professes

to contain entries of monies paid—there is no entry of the receipt of is., 5s. 1l. 1/2d., or 6s.—on the 25th October, 1874, January, 1875, and 5th April, 1875, respectively, there is simply the word "country" in the prisoner's handwriting, which is written when work is actually being obtained in the country—there is no entry under 4th January, except his own 1s.—there has been no balance-sheet since October. 1874, because we have not had the books.

Cross-examined. I cannot say that you have put query on the arrear-sheet to show that you were doubtful whether the money had been paid or not—no doubt you have told me that you do not owe the money, and if the books were produced you could show it—(referring to arrear-sheet) I see here "Query 6s."—I may have told you at the committee meeting I had been to an eminent solicitor, I do not recollect the words—you were not advised to go away in-order to avoid proceedings—I do not recollect saying to you we were advised to accept an offer of repayment—this letter (produced by the prisoner) is my handwriting. '(This was addressed from the Crown-Tavern to the prisoner, and dated January 14th, 1876; it referred to the committee taking legal advice, and summoned the prisoner to attend a meeting of the managing committee.) I did not write out an order for repayment—I wrote this offer at your request. (It contained the words: "I undertake to pay the sum of—by weekly instalments of 2s. 6d:, such to commence on any day the society shall name.")

By THE COURT. After taking that we took him to the Magistrate—we did not accept that; it is my handwriting; it is a proposal—we were acting as mediators between him and the society.

By the Prisoner. I did not ask you to give me a bill of sale on your goods. (A letter to the prisoner was put in and read and contained the following wards: "We (the committee shall be ready to consider any proposal"). I investi gated all the books there were.


There were two oilier indictments against the prisoner for embezzling sums of money upon which no evidence was offered.


Reference Number: t18760403-309

309. SAMUEL GREEN MARTIN (55) and ISABELLA CATCHPOLE (27) , unlawfully obtaining by false pretences from Messrs. Gask and Gask and others, certain articles, with intent to defraud.

MESSRS. BESLEY, J. P; GRAIN and TICKELL conducted the Prosecution; MESSRS.

STBAIGHT and C. MATTHEWS defended Martin, and MR. HORACE AVORT defended Catehpole.

ELIZABETH MORGAN .' I am employed by Messrs. Charles and Henry Gask, silk merchants—on the 8th February I recollect the female prisoner coming to my department, she wanted to look at some gentleman's nightshirts—I showed her some ladies', and a variety of things from which she made a selection—she gave her name as Mrs. Martin, 42, Ampthill Square, Hampstead Road, and said the goods were to be sent home at 7.30, and that a gentleman would pay by cheque—I gave the directions in the ordinary way that the goods were to be sent.

JOHN LANGWORTHY . I am an assistant to Messrs. Gask Gask—on the 8th February, the female prisoner selected some calicoes and linen—I have since seen the same goods in hands of the police—she gave her address Mrs. Martin, 42, Ampthill Square, and said that the goods were to be sent home after 7.30 at night as Mr. Martin would be at home and would give a cheque for them.

Cross-examined by MR. AVORY. She did say, that Mr. Martin would not be at home earlier than that.

BENJAMIN THOMAS , I am manager to Messrs. Gask Gask—I went on the 11th February, with one of my assistants to 42, Ampthill Square, with the goods mentioned in this invoice (produced) amounting to 44l., 18s., 3d.,—previously I had received this letter—I saw the, female servant first, of all, I know her name to be Sindall—I gave the account—she went—away and come back again; I went into the backroom on the ground-floor and soon after in came the female prisoner—she had the invoice in her hand, she asked for the discount to be deducted as her husband was waiting to write, out a cheque—I said we never allow discount this was a cash transaction—she said "My husband is a banker and is very particular"—she. left the room and presently returned and asked me to receipt the invoice while the cheque was being written out—she said "would we allow her to return a pair of silk stocking her husband did not think they would be of any service in America"—I said "we should be very pleased to exchange them for any goods"—she then said she did not know what parcel they were in but would come down to-morrow and have them, changed—she brought me a pen and ink to receipt the, account and presently came and handed me this cheque for 44l. 18s. (The cheque was Messrs. Martin& Co., london payable to messrs. Gask Gask, or order and signed S. G. Martin). The female, prisoner, as I looked at the cheque, said "You see my husband is a banker"—I left the goods and took the cheque thoroughly—believing it was a fact—the cheque was subsequently paid, through—the Bloomsbury Branch of the London and Westminster Bank and returned with N.E on it which means "no effects" Mrs. Martin did not come to our establishment the next day about the silk stockings—on Wednesday, the 15th, I went, with Mr. Oatway to 42, Ampthill Square, but was told that Mr. and Mrs. Martin, were both out of town and would not. return until the end of the week.

Cross-examined by MR. STRAIGHT. I cannot say that we supplied customers in Ampthill Square before—not to my knowledge—by the appearance of the house it was a ten or eleven room house.

Cross-examined by MR. H. AVORY. I was impressed on looking at the cheque with the fact that Mr. Martin was one of the bankers in Lombard Street.

He-examined. I believed the cheque was a good one when I took it.

ROSE HARRIS . I. am in the employ of Messrs Lewis, Allenby silk mercers, Regent Street—the female prisoner came to our shop on the 7th February—she ordered a fifteen guinea black silk dress—she gave her name and address, Mrs. Martin, 42 Ampthill Square—she said she wished the things sent home after 7.30 at night, when her husband was home and would settle the account—I made the entry at the time.

MR. OATWAY. I am manager to Messrs. Lewis & Co.—on 12th February, I, accompanied by a porter, went to 42, Ampthill Square—I took a portion of the goods, some had been left in the morning-a servant girl opened the door; I was shown into the dining-room, and shortly afterwards the female prisoner came in—I said "Mrs. Martin" said "Yes"—I said "I have brought you the remainder of the, goods and also the account"—she said "Oh, I thought it was rather strange that the goods: had been left in; the morning as I have no account with you"—I said. "It is for that I have come as the goods are to, be paid for on delivery"—she said "Have you brought the children's dresses'—I said "No, you have not finally given the order for those, you were to call on the Monday, to complete giving the

order"—she said "Then, would you like me to pay you now"—I said "Certainly, for that reason I came"—she then left the room and fetched a cheque—I made the remark 'You are going to pay me by cheque are you"—she said "Yes"—I was about to make a further observation when she said "This house is our own and my husband is a merchant in the City"—I then said "This cheque is on Martin's," and she further said that Martin Co., the bankers' were related to her husband—I said "He is a man of high position"—she then filled up the cheque for 38l. 10s.; the writing and the figures—as the 10s. was put some distance from the pounds; I requested her to add an "0," which she did, and also added "s" to the shillings in writing—she then said she was very pleased, indeed, with the goods she had purchased, and thought the dress was very reasonable in price, and that she would be requiring several more dresses and would call to give a further order, and to complete the order for the children's dresses on the Monday following—I had left the porter in the hall with the goods—as I came out I offered to take the goods in (as I had. received a cheque), and her statement was "Pray leave them there," which I did and departed; I was induced to leave the goods by the representations she made; I had no suspicion at all about the cheque—that cheque was returned, after being paid through the bankers—on the Monday morning I went to our bankers; Messrs, Harris, and accompanied their clerk to Messrs. Martins, the bankers, and saw the cheque presented and heard the answer given—after that I went to the house and reached there about 12 o'clock—this was the 14th, on the Monday—the transaction was on the 12th(Saturday)—it was too late on the Saturday to present the cheque—there was a servant sweeping the snow from the door, and I asked for Mrs. Martin—I did not see Mrs. Martin, or Catchpole, nor Mr. Martin—I went again the same evening with the same result; I went again the next day with a like result, and again the following day, I think twice with the same result—neither of the prisoners called at our premises as she bad promised, and I never saw them until they were in custody—I have since seen the goods in the custody of the police, and identified them.

Cross-examined by MR. H. AVORY. All the goods are ladies articles for any woman's personal use.

MICHAEL BOWEN . I am manager to Messrs. Shootbred Co., Tottenham Court Road—the female prisoner called at the establishment, about the last day of January or the 1st February—she wanted to open a credit account, she said so, and I said we don't give any credit accounts—if we were satisfied with her representations, we did not object to open a monthly account; and she gave references—she came again within two days after I had gone for the references—I declined to open an account, because we understood that Mr. Martin, was separated from his wife—I told this to her as a reason—she said "It was so, but we are not now"—she then said If you send the goods on the Saturday following, Mr. Martin will send a cheque for them"—she had looked out the goods on the first day; over sixty odd pounds worth; I sent the goods—they came back again, and at the same time the person brought me a cheque—shortly after Mr. Martin, the male prisoner came and saw me and said "You have a cheque of mine"—"Yes", I said "We have"—he said "Is not it rather singular when an order is given for goods you do not deliver them?"No", I said, "I do not, we will deliver the goods when I get the money for them and not before"—he then said that either he or Mrs. Martin would call that afternoon

or nest morning, and bring the money for the cheque which they did not do, but they sent a note asking for the cheque to be returned—I received this letter (produced)—the cheque came back and was taken away—our goods never were parted with.

Cross-examined by MR. H. AVORY. Mrs. Martin did not say to me her husband was a relation to the bankers.

BARNABY THOMPSON . I am employed by Messrs. Shoolbred Co—I took some goods to 42, Ampthill Square on Saturday 5th February; the goods are described in this list—I saw the female: prisoner and said "I have brought the goods from Shoolbred's"—she asked for the bill, which I presented, and she filled in a blank cheque—I told her it was not customary to leave goods except for ready cash, but if she would give me the cheque I would take it to these firm and let them see it—she said Mr. Martin had left the cheque for her to fill up—she gave me the cheque and I took it down; Mr. Bowen saw it—she said that the cheque was not to be presented until the Tuesday—I was there on the Saturday with the goods—she wasted me to leave them, but declined, and took them back—she also said her husband was a broken in the City and no relation to the bankers; she volunteered this—as a reason why the cheque was not to be presented she said her husband was a broker and had large-dealings and sometimes a large amount was at the bank and at others scarcely anything, sometimes thousands by speculations, and sometimes he would only have a few shillings there—when I refused to leave the goods she said I know the reason that this has' happened when I saw; the chief cashier he asked me whether I had been separated from my husband; I thought that had nothing to do with the matter; but certainly we had a little difference at one time and I went home to live with my ma for a few months, but it is all made up now, and I am living with him still."

WILLIAM HILLTER . I am a carpenter and joiner, living at 42, Ampthili Square—I have that house upon a three years' or eight years' agreement at a rental of 90l.—Elizabeth Catchpole is my daughter—she has a husband living, but I do not know where he is—she has been living with me at 42, Amipthill Square ever since I have been there, nearly twelve months—her mother is living there—the male prisoner came to live there, I think, about a fortnight or three weeks after we went into the house—have seen his wife in Court—the house did not belong to him—he was living in furnished lodgings.

Cross-examined by MR. AVORY. I do not know when her Husband left her, it was some time before we came to the house—she ought to have left him years ago—Mrs. Martin, when living at my house, was so constantly drunk that I would not allow her to stay, and so my daughter looked after Mr. Martin's children.

SARAH ANN SINDALL . I was servant at Mr. Hillier's 42; Ampthill Square—the two prisoners were living there as man and wife—I remember Mr. Thomas, from Gask Gask, coming, and the cheque being produced—I went upstairs to Mr. Martin (the male, prisoner) with the cheque; he signed at and I gave it to Mrs. Martin (the female prisoner) in the backroom—I was there as servant during the time Mr. Oatway was coming for several days to make inquiries—Mrs. Catchpole gave me directions once what to says she told me to say "Not at home"—she was in, I think, at the time—Mr. Oat way, I think; called there.

PETER CHRISTIAN HEXSON . I am manager to Messrs. Martin's, the bankers,

at Lombard Street—I have been employed by them upwards of twenty-one years—the prisoner is not in any way connected with the firm only in keeping an account there—an account was opened by him about seven years ago—I have our ledger here (produced)—the account stood on February 16th, 1875, 199. 11s. overdrawn—several cheques have been presented, but none cashed—there were not funds to meet these (cheques produced)—he had no authority to draw the cheque upon us—I know the prisoner's writing—I have cashed his obsequies on many occasions upon his signature—this is his signature, to the best of my belief; I little demurred to it at first; it is slightly different.

Crass-examined by MR. STRAIGHT. He has been a customer about seven years—I could not tell the sums of money—I could not say whether he had 1,000l. standing to his credit—we hold American bonds against a loan of between 2,000l. and 3,000l.; we have two sets of bonds—I cannot tell the exact date when we made the advance—the money was put to his credit in his banking account—previous to these securities being deposited he was permitted to have a large over draught—these were deposited by him as security for that large over draught—he has only deposited one sort of security with us, an American railway, called the Lakeria, Makeen, and South Western—I could not tell you at all what was the amount, the thing had run on so—we have carried forward the over draught in the ledger of the next-year—we have not credited him with the value of the bonds—if monies had been paid in we should have placed them to his account—the account is still open—I am not aware that between January and March, 1876, he was in communication with Messrs. Martin upon the subject of a further advance upon those bonds—I will not swear he was not.

Re-examined, The bonds were sent to us by the company itself—we are not to part with a single bond unless we get 55l. for 100l.—we gave him notice of the account being overdrawn in 1875.'

WALTER ARMITAGE . I am manager to Messrs. Puckeridge, provision merchants—this is the letter (produced) I received from the prisoner Martin (Read: "61, Gracechurch Street, February 11, 1876. Dear Sir,—Advices 6 a.m. from Glasgow, as also from Hull. Again ask for delay. I will not, therefore, be prepared to meet your claims until next week unless funds come in from other sources. Begging your continuing your indulgence for a few more days, I am")

WILLIAMM HARRISON . I am a bootmaker, living at 14, Gracechurch Street, City—I received this cheque (produced) from the prisoner Martin on the 18th October, 1875—I let him have is. 18s.—at the time he gave me the cheque he stated I should find it quite correct; it was upon his own account at the bank—I paid it in, and it came back to me—I did not get my money nor my boots back—these letters (produced) I received from the prisoner. (Read: "Memo from S. G. Martin,. Gentlemen,—After I have seen my bankers this day, or not later than to-morrow (Wednesday), I will call and—take up the cheque for 5l. Regretting this very much, I am respectfully yours, S. G. Martin. 2nd Nov., 1875." "Dec. 15,1875. To Messrs. Harrison Bros., 14, Gracechurch Street, City. Gentlemen,—I hope you will not take such a course as is threatened in your memorandum of this date. I have been sadly pressed for the past few weeks and annoyance from various sources, which has rendered it impossible for me to take up the cheque. I will take it up next week. Please extend this courtesy, and you will not have cause to regret it.") I threatened him with proceedings.

Cross-examined by MR. STRAIGHT. He has been a customer of mine some few years—I cannot tell how much money he has paid me—I do not call Mr. Donnie a customer of mine; he wants the goods without the money—I pledge my oath he never offered me the money for the cheque.

PHILIP SHRIVES (Detective Officer C). I was entrusted with two warrants to take the two prisoners into custody—I went to 42, Ampthill Square, a little after 8 o'clock in the evening of the 18th February—I saw Martin go into the doorway, and I. followed him in—I said "Mr. Martin"—he said "My name is not Martin"—I said "I believe it is"—he said "Well, if it is, what do you want?"—I said "I have a warrant for you for obtaining goods from Puckeridge"—he denied the existence of any warrant, and threatened to put me out and attempted to. do, so—I struggled with him and got him into the dining—from; after being there some time I asked time I asked faced him if he had any weapon about him, and he said; "No"—I said "I shall see if you have"—he said, "If you put your, hands upon me I williblowza hole through you big enough for a dog to bark through"—I asked for Mrs. Martin, and they "denied that she was there—I went into the coal-cellar and found her there—I said "Mrs. Martin, come out; I have a warrant for you"—she came into the kitchen, and I. told her it was for obtaining goods from Cask Gask—she said she did not know how I had a warrants for her—I read it to her—I took her to the station and on the way she said the cheque was given to her by Martin and she did not know but that he had an account there—I found the goods there, and I have them outside the Court now—she said he gave her both the cheques, and she only filled up the amount.

JAMES NEWRY . I was in, company with Shrives, and remained in the dining-room with the male prisoner while he went downstairs he wanted to know what right we had, there—I told him; we had a warrant for him for obtaining goods from Puckeridge—he said "I do not deny having goods there; it is only a debt."

WILLIAM MARTIN . I am related to the bankers—there are my uncle, two cousins, and myself in the firm—the prisoner is not in the slightest related to us.

Cross-examined by MR. STRAIGHT. We all, more or less, take active parts in the business—my uncle is the senior partner.

Witnesses for Martin.

HENRY MONDAY , I live at George Street, Hampstead Road, and am a packer—I, am employed at the Bedford. Pantechnicon, Tottenham Court Road—I know, the prisoner Martin—I have not seen him at the Bedford Pantechnicon, but at Notting Hill, over twelve months ago—I brought to away a houseful of furniture; it was very good—I took it to the Bedford Pantechnicon by his order—I was then ordered to take them to Victoria Hall, Archer Street, an auction place—I cannot say who are the people that carry on business there—I received instructions to. take the furniture there on the 10th February of this year—I do not know any person of the name of Raven Co—I took the furniture the same night that I received instructions, and the remainder on the 11th—I helped to prepare it for scale—I have had about eighteen years' experience in furniture—this Was worth more than a couple of hundred pounds.

Cross-examined. I do not know anything of the bill of scale—I do not know that the goods were lodged at the Pantechnicon under the order of the gentleman who had a bill of sale—I know nothing at all about a bill of sale.

WILLIAM HHILIER (re-examined). I was aware Martin had furniture at the Bedford Pantechnicon, and that it was removed to certain auction-rooms in Bays water for the purpose of being sold—I knew nothing of Raven Co., nor that an advance had been made upon this furniture—Mr. Rave told me the value of the furniture—Mr. Raven is an auctioneer—I have not seen the furniture—I saw Mr. Raven about two days after Mr. Martin was arrested, after Mr. Raven had sold the things—I 'went yesterday to Mr. Raven's place of business, but could not find him.

Cross-examined. I understand nothing about the bill of sale, registered. in favour of William Corman, for Mr. Martin, and amount of security 275l.

Re-examined. I heard from Mr. Raven that this furniture was of very considerable value—if anyone advances 275l. the furniture is worth double the money.

MARTIN— GUILTY Five Years' Penal Servitude.


NEW COURT.—Friday, April 7th, 1876.

Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

Reference Number: t18760403-310

310. WILLIAM PAYNE (29) and JAMES PERRY (47), were indicted ( with THOMAS SWINSCOE , not in custody) for stealing 345 dozen bottles of the Great Northern Railway Company, their masters.

MESSES. COOPER and STRAIGHT conducted the Prosecution; and MR. WARNER SLEIGH defended Payne.

HENRY BAKER . I live at 214, Cable Street, St. George's in the East I am a dealer in bottles—two and a half years ago I was convicted at the Middlesex Sessions of receiving some property and sentenced to eighteen month's hard labour—I served my time—I was buying two dozen bottles at my own door, "Mr. Sleigh knows all about it, he defended me—I received this slip of paper (produced) from a van driver not in the employ of the Great Northern Railway—in consequence of that I went, on 6th March, to the goods yard of the Great Northern Railway—I there saw Perry and showed him the piece of paper, it has on it "James Perry, No. 763"—he said "All right, we will show you them presently"—he took me down where the horses were kept and inside, at the back part of the stables, he showed me a lot of crates and bottles that had been re packed—I am acquainted' with bottles and know the manufacture—they had not the proper labels of the manufacturers on them—there were perhaps 150 crates, about twenty six of them" were repacked'; they were all. different people's manufacture; some were Mr. Breffit's, his" name was not on them; Mr. Bush is the only manufacturer of them—while I was looking at the bottles Payne came in—Perry said "It's alt right, he is my mate, he is the same as me, he will show you some more directly"—I was then taken up to" a loft and there saw some more crates—both the prisoners were there—they said "We can let you have this one, or let you have that one," they both spoke—I said "All right, they will do"—the conversation went on altogether half an "hour, I suppose—I asked them how they could get them out—they said "Cannot you get a van of your own"—Payne said "We can get one of the company's vans to get them out, if you can't get one of your own, but we would rather you got one of your own"—I said I would see them again respecting the affair—I then left and went straight to the Old Jewry and gave information to the inspector there and he put me in communication with Osborne, the detective—on 8th March, I went again to the goods yard and saw both the

prisoners—I said "I can do with them, can you let me have some samples"—they let me have some and I booked the contents of the crates-Perry had a newspaper in his hand at the time, I went and Payne was sitting on a crate, they apparently had nothing to do—I said to, Payne "What is the, Matter with Perry"—he said "The b——old fool is frightened now"—I asked Payne what the price of the. crates would be—he said "Will 14s. a crate hurt you?"—I said "No, that, will be very cheap; when can I have them" Payne said "I can't say, but, we will let you know"—I said "How is it you can't let me know at once"—he said "We have got to watch our opportunity there is our foreman, who has got a hundred eyes; he has to go and see the beer stowed at the hotel, and when he goes away we have a chance to get them out, for we have a drunken little clerk in our place and he will give us the pass to get them out all right"—I took these five bottles (produced) as a sample of the various sorts, there were three crates of them—I took them to Osborne—two or three days afterwards I went again to the goods yard and saw both the prisoner—I did not say much to Perry—Payne said that he could not tell me when he could get them out but he would meet me on Sunday at the Royal Exchange drinking fountain at 11 o'clock—I went there on the Sunday with Osborne, but Payne did not comer-Osborne wrote a letter, and on the Monday night, I went again to the royal exchange, about 8 o'clock, and there saw Perry—he said "They are all ready loaded and we should have sent them down, to-day only we did not know whether you would be at home, here are the tickets of the crates," and he handed me these tickets—I Said I don't want you to send, them to my place, I want you to send them to Peter Street, Hackney Road—he gave me one of these advice notes—we went to a public-house—I had a bottle of ginger beer and he had a glass of ale—he said "Meet me in the morning up at the station and we will have the goods out—I said "And I will pay you for them"—I went next morning, that would be the 14th, I saw Perry—he said the notes were already given in and they ought to have been given out before this—I said I would wait for them till they were out and I would meet him at the yard and saw Payne—I said "Where is Perry, how is it the goods are not out"—he said "They won't be long now"—I said "You will be out to dinner soon, won't you"—he said "Yes"—I said "Then I will wait till you come out, over at the City of York—I went there and waited—both the prisoners came over and Perry gave me one of these advice notes, saying that the goods were coming out; he said "They are just transferring the lot out of one van into another, they are sure not to be long now, the carman will be out with them directly, he don't know nothing about the load, the carman don't, be sure and don't let him know anything about it"—Payne was present then and I said to Payne "As soon as they are out. I will pay you"—they said they were not frightened of the money—Perry went away saying "I will come out and let you know when they are ready"—Payne remained with me—Perry came back in about a quarter of an hour and said the goods were loaded and they would be out directly, and that he had put some flocks on the top of them—he gave me another advice note and said "When you get the goods you can burn that b——note"—I saw the van come out in charge of Butcher—I saw the flocks on the top of the bottles, I did not see where the van went to, I left it there—I had at that time given all the information to the police, and all the notes and as the prisoners gave them to me.

Cross-examined by MR. W SLEIGH, I don't think I said at the police-court that the prisoner said they would rather I brought my own van, or that I saw Perry reading a newspaper and that Payne said "The b——old fool is frightened"; I forgot to speak about that—I knew nothing of the prisoner before this—I saw a man named Harrison along with Perry sitting down in the public-house, that was the first and last I saw of him—I did not know till then that he was in the employ of Messrs. Bogley, Wild Co. glass bottle manufactures—I did not ask him if he could get me any bottles.

FREDERICK BUTCHER . I am a carman to the Great Northern Railway, and live 23, Pulteney Street, Barnsbury—on 14th March, I took my van No. 497, alongside van 298, and put 11 crates and 1 bag of bottles on to my van, I afterwards loaded 4 bags of flocks, they were added to the delivery sheet—a man named Cook helped me to load and Perry came up and lent us a hand—he said "Come outside and I will show you the man the bottles belong to"—he took me to the gates and pointed Baker out to me and I went up to Baker and told him I had got his bottles and I should be there in, about an hour—I went out with the van and when I got to Gray's Inn Road I was stopped by Thorogood the constable—I was going to Peter Street, Hackney Road, that was on the delivery sheet—this is the sheet (the first item on it was headed "Henry Baker, Peter Street")

Cross-examined by MR. W. SLEIGH. Baker was standing just outside the gates by himself—I did not see Payne till I went and spoke to Baker he came up at the same time, and he was not standing with Baker, he said nothing, only passed the time of day—I went into the City of York to have half a pint and Payne came in at the same time.

WILLIAM OSBORNE (City Detective). On 7th March, I was put into communication with the witness Baker, from that, time until the prisoners were apprehended he was acting under my instructions—on 9th March, I received from him the five sample bottles that have been produced—on Sunday, 12th March, I went with him to the Royal Exchange—on that evening I wrote a letter addressed to "Mr. William Perry, 62, Blundell Street Caledonian Road," and on Monday, about 2 o'clock, I received this letter (produced)—in consequence of receiving that I communicated with Baker, and also with the Great Northern authorities, and on Monday evening, about 8 o'clock, I went to the Royal Exchange—about 8.15, I saw Perry go up to Baker, and have a conversation with him, they afterwards went into the European public-house, I followed them in, I saw Perry give something to Baker—after Perry left Baker handed me the two papers, they were rolled up in his hand—in consequence of what he told me 1 went with him next morning, Tuesday, about 10 o'clock, to King's Cross—I obtained the assistance of two officers, Thorogood and Hollis—I went with Baker to the gates of the goods depot, and about 11 o'clock I saw him meet Perry—they were walking about in the goods yard, for about five minutes in conversation—they went out of my sight for about half an hour or an hour—Baker then came out and handed me this advice note—from what he told me I went into the company's yard, and there saw van 298 laden-with crates tied down with sheet, 11,602; I then came out—about 1 o'clock, I saw Payne talking to Baker, outside the City of York public-house, immediately opposite the gates—after talking a short time they went into one of the side bars of the City of York and Perry came up and went in after them—Perry came out first and went into the yard, and then I saw Payne and

Baker come out—Payne walked away and Baker came, and made a statement to me; I afterwards saw Perry come out of the yard with Butcher, and point towards Baker, Perry then went away, and Payne walked up by the side of the carman and went into the City of York—the carman afterwards went into the yard again and came but driving the van 497, it was laden with crates and some sacks on the top containing something—he went over the bridge towards King's Cross, I gave Thorogood instructions, and he followed; I and Hollis went up to Payne—I said to him "I am a City detective officer, and this is a Great Northern detective, you must consider yourself in custody for being concerned with others in stealing a load of crates and bottles—I did not give him time to reply, for at that time I saw Perry going into the yard, and—said to Hollis "Look after him," and I went after Perry and. said "Perry"—he turned round and said u Yes"—I said "I am acuity detective officer; I shall take you. into custody for being concerned with another man in custody in stealing a load bottles"—he hesitated slightly and then said "I cannot understand it"—I said "you ought to, as you have written letter—to me;" at the time producing the letter I had received the day previous in answer to the one I had written.(Read: "Monday, March 6th Dear Sir—I am could not meet you yesterday as I was at work, but I will meet you to night at 8.30 at the Fountain, Royal Exchange, or if you do not see me you may expect the crates to-morrow by Great Northern van; I can't say what time; be there to meet it, I will meet you to night if possible. Yours truly, J. Perry.") that enclosed an envelope addressed "Mr. Baker, care of Mr. Drew, Monument Tavern, East Cheap, City"—Perry said "I did not write that letter, a clerk in the office wrote it"—I believe it is in the handwriting of Swenson, who has absconded—I then pointed in the direction of Payne, who Was in custody and said "Do you know that man"—he said "I can't understand this," and smiled—I spoke to him' in the ordinary tone, and he spoke to me on the way to the station.

JOHN HOLLIS . I am an officer in the service of the Great Northern Railway Company—on 14th March I accompanied Osborne and Baker. to the York Road Station—I went to the van.298—I partially removed the tarpaulin and saw that it contained crates of bottles—I pulled two or three out and saw that they agreed with the ticket shown on this list which I had seen in Osborne possession—about l' o'clock I saw the two prisoners together come from the' yard and go into the City of York, where Baker was—I saw Perry leave and go to the goods yard again—Baker made a communication to us—I went to the yard and saw that the bottles had been removed from 298 van and placed in 497 with four bags of flecks over them—I then returned to York Road—I saw the van come out—Payne was standing on the pavement" nearly opposite the goods gate—I was present when Osborne took him into custody, he was left with me whilst Osborne went and took Perry—I repeated to Payne the charge Osborne had made—he said "May I ask what crates of bottles you mean;—I said "Yes, the load of crates of bottles, you have been in communication with a man at the East End about, and that you sent a list to"—he said "may I ask who the others are"—I said "Yes; Perry and another that you have been drinking with in the City of York"—at that time I saw Perry in Osborne's custody, and I said to Payne "There is Perry"—he said twice that he did not know him, he afterwards turned round as we passed him and said "Yes, Perry has been my mate about three months In the glass

bottle warehouse, what bottles have been loaded I and Perry have loaded"—I took him to the station and searched him, and found on him this pocket-book, his name is in it—I asked him if it was his book, and his handwriting—he said it was—there are two pages in this book for the list of bottles—he said that was his writing—there are seven items on those pages marked off in lead pencil, and one not marked off—those marked off correspond in number and description with seven of the crates shown on the list handed by Perry to Baker, and the other item corresponds with another of the crates—this paper marked "A" is a leaf from this book, that leaf was handed by Baker to Osborne, and had been given to him by Perry.

Cross-examined by MR. W. SLEIGH. I knew that Perry had given this list, the tickets and this leaf, at the time I had Payne in custody—I had seen them all that morning—I did not cross question him at all; he asked me questions, not I him—I did not know that he was Perry's subordinate.

JAMES WESTON . I am foreman porter at the inwards goods department, King's Cross—the prisoners were in the employ of the Great Northern Railway Company—Perry as a porter in the crate and bottle department, and Payne as assistant under him—Perry has been nineteen years in the company's service, and Payne about three months—it is my duty, amongst other things, to look after the bottles that are stored in the warehouse—in January last I gave Perry instructions to repack certain bottles in stronger crates and to put them in order—he did so, and they were placed at the end of the warehouse—amongst others there were five crates of mother's feeding bottles—Payne assisted Perry in repacking them—and labels were placed upon them similar to these produced; they are in Payne's writing—in consequence of a communication made to me by the police I took stock of those bottles on 19th March—I then found a large quantity missing—I was shown those found in the van, they were of a similar quality and description to those that were missing—neither of the prisoners had any authority to dispose of the bottles—this piece of paper with "736, Jas. Perry" on it, looks like Swinscoe's writing, but I could not say—these advice notes, "B" and "C" are in Perry's writing; the entry on the delivery sheet "Peter Street, Boker", I believe is Swinscoe's writing, with the word "important" attached to it, the portion at the bottom, is in the writing of one of the clerks in the office—the letter "D" is Swinscoe's writing; also the envelope—this list is in Payne's writing.

Cross-examined. by MR. W. SLEIGH. This book of Payne's is not one supplied by the company to their servants; they do supply books—I did not know Payne before he came into the company's service; he came from Messrs. Bagley, Wylde, Co.—Perry had no right to sign these advice notes.

GRYOE WAKEFIELD . I am delivery clerk at the King's Cross goods department—Swinscoe was in the same office—on the 14th March I saw this delivery-sheet, marked E, lying on my desk—Perry came and asked me to deliver it as early as I possibly could because the consignee was waiting for the goods.

THOMAS HENDERSON . I am clerk in charge at the inwards goods department of the Great Northern Railway—the prisoners were on my staff, especially employed in the bottle warehouse—Swinscoe's was a clerk—this advice note (B) is in Perry's handwriting—this "H. Baker" in the delivery note E, is Swinscoe's writing, and this "W. Cox, pro." is in Perry's; also this

(C)—I do not know whose writing this is (C); it is not like Swinscoe's; I don't know whose it is.

FREDERICK AGARD . I am goods manager at the Great Northern Railway, King's Cross—it is the course of business, where property is to be obtained from the station, for the consignee to have an advice note—an invoice is also sent with the goods—the company do not part with the property till the advice note is presented—this advice note is one of the forms of the Great Northern Company—I did not authorise anyone to put the words "W. Cox, pro. Agard," on it.

THOROGOOD. I saw this van on the 14th, and took charge of it—it contained the bottles afterwards shown to Weston.

WILLIAM OSBORNE (re-examined). Payne gave me his address,."62, Blundell Street, Caledonian Road"—that was the address I sent the letters to.

HENRY BAKER (re-examined). Perry was not a witness against me when I was tried.

Payne received a good character.

GUILTY Eighteen Month's Imprisonment each.

Reference Number: t18760403-311

311. JOHN WHITEHOUSE (44) and LUCY WHITEHOUSE (26) , Feloniously forging and uttering an endorsement to a bill of exchange for 4l. 2s. 1d., with intent to defraud.

MESSRS. SAFFORD and NIOHOLLS conducted the Prosecution; and MR. W. SLEIGH the Defence.

MART ANN DUNBAR . I am the wife of Francis Edward Dunbar, an engineer, who is at Yokohama—I used to work at Mr. Bamford's, the tailor's, 35, East Street, and I received remittances at Mr. Baraford's private residence, 82, Stanley Villas—I left his employment at Christmas, 1874—I know the prisoners; they lived at 4 1/2, East Street, which is opposite No. 35, where I worked—I never spoke to them, or made any request to them as to my remittances from Yokohama, nor did I tell Mr. Bamford to do anything with them—I did not receive any remittances after October, 1874.

JAMES BROADBENT . I am cashier to the Hong Kong and Shanghai Bank, 31, Lombard Street—I received these drafts (produced) at the bank; I cannot tell you who from—this is one, dated 4th December, I received on the 13th January, and cashed it—a woman brought it to the bank—it was then signed "Mary Ann Dunbar"—I have seen the female prisoner at the bank—this order, dated 11th January, 1875, was also signed when I cashed it on the 8th March—I also cashed this order of the 17th February, 1875, which was signed when I received it; as also was this order of the 10th of March, 1875—I cannot remember whether a man or a woman brought them—the drafts were all in order when I paid them.

Cross-examined. I know the prosecutrix by sight, only from seeing her at the bank and at Bow Street—I do not remember Mrs. Dunbar coming to the bank with a female—I cannot be sure where I have seen the female prisoner, but I think it must be at the bank—I will not undertake to swear that I have not seen her with Mrs. Dunbar, but I do not remember seeing them together—I paid all these orders; they are cancelled by me, but I do not know who presented them—the first time I saw Mrs. Dunbar that I remember was in December, 1875—the last order I paid was on the 26th of April, 1875—1 have had no other orders to pay for her since—I have

another order in my pocket, which I paid for her (produced)—the acknowledgment of the receipt of the monies never went through my hands.

Re-examined. The one I produce was cashed in October, 1874—the indorsement is in different writing to the others—I found that out after receiving the summons 'to appear here—these four appear to be all endorsed in the same writing.

GEORGE BAMFORD . I am a tailor, employed at 35, East Street, Lamb's Conduit Street—I know the prisoners; they live at 4 1/2, East Street, just opposite our shop—the prosecutrix worked at that place till about October, 1874, when she left—after she left I received two letters with the Yokohama post-mark at my private address, 82, Stanley Buildings, King's Cross—one, I believe, I received on the 2nd January and the other on the 11th January, 1875—I took them to 4 1/2, East Street, and Mrs. Whitehouse took them in—I had orders to take them there—I put them into her hand and said nothing—all the instructions I had about it was to take them to where she lived, and, Mrs. Whitehouse being a friend of hers, I was to take them there—I do not believe I saw Mrs. Dunbar from October, 1874, till I saw her at the Court; it was over twelve months.

Cross-examined. I know that in 1874 Mrs. Dunbar and Mrs. Whitehouse were on very friendly terms that was the time I had instructions to take letters there—Mrs. Dunbar was in the habit of visiting the White houses—I used to work at East Street, for Mr. Sherwood the tailor and Mrs. Dunbar worked for me as seamstress—in consequence of my being slack of work she ceased to work for me, she left my service in January or February, 1874—I never received a letter till June or July, and those which I received before October I used to give to Mrs. Dunbar herself—I do not know what she did after she left me—I do not know Mr. Gray—I knew Mr. Thomas Watts, the first time I saw him was in October, 1874—he was then I believe living with Mrs. Dunbar; she told me so—I do not know that she lived with him under the name of Thomas Dunbar—I know that she had a husband named Thomas Dunbar in Yokohama—I know that she was living with Watts while she was drawing her money from her husband in Yokohama—I never wrote letters for her, I cannot write—the last time I saw her was at 4, Windmill Street, I cannot tell you the landlord or landlady's name but that is were I took the last letter—she may have told me then that she was out of work, it was a slack time of the year—I do not remember her telling me that she had been out of work since she left my employment, but she might have—I saw Mrs. Dunbar at both hearings at Bow Street—I told her that she had better be careful what evidence she gave—I went into a public-house with her—it does not matter to me what she says, I came here to speak the truth.

M. A. DUNBAR (re-examined). These orders are made out in my name but the signature at the back is not mine it is the female prisoner's to the best of my belief—I have seen her signature—I never authorised her to sign them—one of them bears my signature—it is true that I authorised Mr. Bamford to send my letters to the prisoners and I believe they were sent there—the female prisoner said that she would bring them if there were any—I never inquired whether they had received letters, I depended upon them and took it for granted that there were none—I am quite sure that I never authorised either of the prisoner's to sign any paper or to open any letters for me.

Cress-examined. I was on very friendly terms with the prisoners—I first

knew them about November, 1873, or it may have been September—Mrs. Whitehouse and I were very thick friends—she was very kind, indeed, to me in 1873—I did not exactly have my meals there, but I used to go backwards and forwards, and occasionally had something to eat and drink—I never paid anything for that and was never asked to—I did not tell Mrs. White-house, that my second husband who was in the Guards had deserted me and gone to Japan, and I had not heard from him since, or that I had deserted him—I have heard from him—I told her that he did not send me any money to support me—I asked her in January, 1874, to go with me to the Foreign Office, for the purpose of making enquiries about my husband who was in Yokohama, and as to whether he would send me over any money—she went with me and waited outside while I went in, and when I came out I told her that they would communicate with the engineers in Yokohama, and let me know—in January, 1874, I dismissed myself from Bamford's on account of slackness of work and. went to Windmill Street to work as a waistcoat tailor—that brought the same money as Mr. Bamford's as long as it lasted—I told Mr. Bamford that Mrs. Whitehouse was to take charge of my letters—I write very little and have been in the habit of getting certain people to write letters for me—when I was at Mr. Powers, in Little Windmill Street, in June or July, 1874, I got a letter from the Yokohama Light Horse Company, stating that my second husband was in their employment and would make me an allowance of 1l. a week—in July, 1874, I made the acquaintance of Mr. Watts, who I called my friend at the police-court—he is a silver polisher—I do not know from his own mouth that he is a married man, but I heard from others that he is—he has no children—he lived with me under the name of Thomas Dunbar, and during that time I drew money from my husband, the real Dunbar, at Yokohama—I borrowed some money from a loan office, and Watts was security—he signed my husband's name to the best of my belief—they put an execution into my house, and Mrs. Whitehouse then went with me to the door of the loan office—I asked the loan office people to give me time and not to press the execution—I did not say that my husband was going to have some money from India—I promised them that it should be paid—I said that I expected to receive some money from abroad; I did not say from India—I paid them 1l—I worked for that in Tottenham Street, and was paid 1l. a week—it was not paid out of the proceeds of this money order, which I am charging the prisoners with forging—I never fell out with the White houses—I first met Watts at Christmas, 1873—I never asked Mrs. Whitehouse to go to the Shanghai Bank for me and get the order of December 30th paid; I decline to say whether I was in the family way by Thomas Watts, in December, 1874—Mr. Whitehouse did not tell me in September, 1874, that he would not have me at his house because I was, deriving money from my husband and keeping Watts and myself upon it—Watts signed these rules for me in my presence—Mr. Gay has written acknowledgments abroad for me—I mean to tell the Jury, that-knowing that the Light Horse Company had promised that my husband would remit 1l. a week, I never from October, 1874, went to ask the White houses about my remittances—I knew that Whitehouse was a confidential clerk in one of the. largest houses of business in London, and I should never have thought they would have robbed me; I believe this letter (produced) is either Mr. Watts' or Mr. Gay's, I do not know which—Mr. Gay is a schoolmaster—these other two letters (produced) are in the male prisoner's writing.

By THE COURT. I bad give instructions for my letters to be delivered to the prisoners, but I did not know that any had actually been delivered.

WALTER ANDREWS (Police Sergeant). In December last my attention was called to this case, and I went to the prisoner's place with Sergeant Garnham—I saw Whitehouse come from a beerhouse in East Street—I told him we were police officers and should take him in custody for forging the endorsements to some bills of exchange—he said "I know nothing about it, I am as innocent as a babe"—he was very much excited, and we went with him into his house, 4 1/2, East Street—the female prisoner returned home from shopping—we repeated the same to her—she said "It is all through that wicked" or "wretched Mrs. Dunbar"—the male prisoner said "I shall never deny writing these letters this year"—the female prisoner said "I went to the bank with Mrs. Dunbar, endorsed the cheques, and gave the money to Mrs. Dunbar, who was waiting outside"—the male prisoner said "If you have dragged me into this, Lucy, for God's sake, tell me"—she made no answer, but on their way to the station in the cab they both repeated their statements about writing the letters and endorsing the cheques.

GREENHAM (Police Sergeant). I was with Andrews.

Cross-examined. On 9th November I went to the prisoners' house and asked the address of Mrs. Dunbar—the female prisoner said "Are you the gentleman she expects from Yokohama?"—I said "I do not know, I come from Yokohama, and I want to find out her address"—she did not say "If you have got anything for Mrs. Dunbar you bad better send it back to the husband, as the wife does not deserve it"—I have got some private letters; they were produced at the police-court.


Reference Number: t18760403-312

312. JOHN WHITEHOUSE and LUCY WHITEHOUSE were again indicted for feloniously forging and uttering the endorsements to certain other bills of exchange with intent to defrand.

No evidence was offered.


FOURTH COURT.—Friday, April 7th, 1876.

Before Robert Malcolm Kerr, Esq.

Reference Number: t18760403-313

313. JOHN LANE (23) and ALFRED MARTIN (33) , Stealing a book of Gilbert Noble. Second Count—Receiving the same.


MR. SAFFORD conducted the Prosecution; and MR. C. MATHEWS defended Lane.

GILBERT NOBLE . I am assistant to my father, of 312, Strand, a bookseller—on the 8th March, at 4.30, Martin came into our shop—he produced a list of books, upon which was the name "David Copperfield," and another book about America—I noted down the prices—after he had gone I missed a copy of "David Copperfield"—it was afterwards produced to me by Constable Morels at the police-station—it is worth 12s—I had last seen it just before Martin came in.

THOMAS MARELS (Policeman E 462). At 0.30 on the night of the 8th of March I saw Lane in the Strand—I went to him and he ran away—I followed and stopped him—he mingled with the crowd so as to escape my vigilance—I caught hold of him, and he said "Loose me, I will go with you"—I said "I shall not loose you"—I took him back to the shop to Mr. Waller, and he said "That is the man"—I said "I have brought you back this book"—the prisoner said the book was purchased by another party,

describing the prisoner, at a public-house in Drury Lane, and that he received it from him to sell—I kept him in the shop for a time until another constable came up, and from the evidence I received from Lane I said "Go to the public-house with Mr. Waller's son," and I gave him the description that I have had given me—I said "Take Martin out and we will charge him with being concerned"—I took Lane to the station, and the, prisoner Martin was afterwards brought there, who said in the presence of the prisoner Lane "He is going to pay me for my time; I know nothing of these books"—he saw the book "David Copperfield" lying at the station, and said "It is my book, and I have had it in my possession for three years—Lane did not say anything to that.

JOHN WALLER . I am a bookseller, at 320, Strand—on Thursday, 8th March, Lane came to my shop—he brought this copy of David Copperfield, and said that he wished to sell it—I did not purchase it, but detained him having recognised him—I sent for a police constable—he ran off, but was brought back in a few minutes by the police-constable.

The Statements made by the Prisoners at the police-court were read. Lane says: " During the last nine months' I have been a general dealer, and did not think I was doing wrong when I sold one of these books and offered the other for sale; I received these books from the prisoner Martin, and we were to share the profit." Martin says: "I am sorry to say Mr. Waller has made a mistake; I pleaded guilty to stealing the book from Mr. Noble's yesterday, the other I know nothing about; Lane has made a mistake in saying he has received the book 'Pickwick Papers' from me."

GUILTY . Each prisoner PLEADED GUILTY to having been before convicted of felony— Seven Years' Penal Servitude each.

Reference Number: t18760403-314

314. CHARLES THEODORE BARKER PLEADED GUILTY to unlawfully writing and publishing a libel of and concerning William Thornton— To inter into recognizance to appear and receive judgment of Court if called upon.

Reference Number: t18760403-315

315. WILLIAM EDWARDS (25) , Feloniously wounding one Maurice Doherty, with intent to do him some grievous bodily harm.

MR. PLATT conducted the Prosecution.

MAURICE DOHERTY . I live at 19, Queen Street, Seven Dials, and am a carman—between 1 and 2 o'clock on the morning of the 29th February, I was in bed—the prisoner lived in the room above me with five other men—I heard a great noise, and I went up and asked them to be quiet because my mother was very bad—the prisoner went on with some bad language; I was standing by another man's bed, and all at once the prisoner pulled a knife out of his pocket, opened it and ran it in me—I went down and called a policeman—I was bleeding fearfully.

JEREMIAH PHILP (Policeman E 415). At quarter to 2 o'clock this morning, in question, I was called by Maurice Doherty—I went to the second floor front room, where I saw the prisoner and other men—Doherty said "That is the man that stabbed me"—I told the prisoner I should charge him with stabbing the prisoner, and he said "I have no knife"—one of the men in the room said "It could not be the prisoner stabbed him, because he had no knife"—the prisoner appeared sober, but the men all said he was drunk—as I left the house in Queen Street, and heard something drop as if from some height, and I found this knife (produced) in two pieces.

SAMUEL MILLS . I am a surgeon of Southampton Street, Strand—the last witness brought Doherty to me, about 2 o'clock—I looked at his

trowsers, and there was a large cut over the left hip, it corresponded with the wound, which was an inch and a half, a punctured wound, widely gaping—it went 3 inches in depth, and was stopped by the thigh bone—he was bleeding fearfully, and his stockings, and inside his shirt was full of blood—a wound like that must have been with great force—I attended to it, it is lealing—there is a great deal of discharge and he walks with a limp, which he says he dip not before—this knife is an instrument likely to cause such a wound.

Witnesses for the Defence.

WILLIAM MANN . When the prosecutor came up he called the prisoner a notch-faced 80d.; I do not know this knife—I have known the prisoner the last five years, and never saw it—I heard Doherty call out "He has done me"—the prosecutor woke out of a drunken sleep—I did not see a knife at all in the prisoner's hand—the candle was an inch and a half long when given to us—we were all singing, five or sis of us in the room.

PATRICK HOLLAND . The prosecutor called the prisoner a notchyfaced sod—they both had a" struggle—I did not' hear prisoner make use of any bad language; I was not quite sober; I do not know this knife—I have known the prisoner about five years—I heard Doherty say "He has done me"—I did not see the window open at all.

Prisoner's Defence. He called me a notchy-faced sod. I said "We cannot help the row." and he threw me over the bed and said "He stabbed me." There is not a more riotous man in the neighbourhood than the prosecutor. He has a brother away now for killing a man.

JEREMIAH PHILP (Policeman E 415) (re-examined). I do not think the prosecutor was drunk—I know nothing against him—he is a carman having horses of his own.

GUILTY Five Years' Penal Servitude.

Reference Number: t18760403-316

316. MATILDA WATSON (27) , Feloniously wounding Arthur Barnes with intent to do him grievous bodily harm.

MR. F. H. LEWIS conducted the Prosecutions

ARTHUR BARNES . I am a metal turner, living at Cottage Road, City Road—I know the prisoner—I remember her coming about ten weeks before my being stabbed—there was a quarrel between some of us and she was sent to prison—when she came out of prison she came again to the house—I attempted to turn her out—I recollect her coming about 1.30 on the morning on which I was stabbed; she was half sober—I was in bed—she knocked at the parlour door and my mother told her to go away—she burst open the door—I spoke to a policeman—I laid hold of her for the purpose of turning her out and she stabbed me—I did not know it was a stab until the next morning—I put her outside on the door step and she hit me on the face—I saw the blood on my arm and found it was a stab—my lip was out—the policeman was there at the time—she was taken into custody, and the doctor afterwards attended me—I saw something glitter in her hand, but could not sec exactly.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. You came round on the Monday night for some things you left—the street door is generally open—before my mother gave you two months; when you used to tap at the parlour window you were let in, because my mother thought you would make a disturbance—you slept on the floor, not in my bed—I did take hold of you by the hair of the head and try to throw you down and kick you—I cannot say the expression I made use of—I am sure you struck me with a knife.

GEORGE BATES (Policeman G 157). On the morning in question I heard a heard a disturbance at 18, Cottage Road—I saw this woman being ejected from the house—I saw her draw a knife from her pocket and stab the prisoner on the upper lip—she did not do anything more—I took her into custody—I took this knife out of her right hand, it was open—the wound was dressed at the police-station by the surgeon.

Prisoner's Defence. I was in a respectable situation in December last. I have been led to the streets by the prosecutor's wife. The prosecutor has been out of employment and he and his mother have been living on my means. He asked me to live with him. My case is to be pitied. I did draw ray knife in the excitement of the moment and cut him.

GUILTYRecommended to mercy—Judgment respited.

Reference Number: t18760403-317

317. JAMES PAYNE (30) and BENJAMIN SARGENT (22) , Feloniously ravishing and carnally knowing one Catherine Clarke.


OLD COURT.—Saturday, April 8th, 1876.

Before Mr. Baron Pollock.

Reference Number: t18760403-318

318. CLARA RAINS (21), was indicted for the wilful murder of her new-born child.

MESSES. POLAND and F. H. LEWIS conducted the Prosecution; and MR. HORACE AVORY the Defence.

GUILTY of concealing the birth Six Months' Imprisonment.

NEW COURT.—Saturday, April 8th, 1876.

Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

Reference Number: t18760403-319

319. JAMES HURLEY (22) , PLEADED GUILTY to feloniously killing and slaying Thomas Geoghan— Nine Months' Imprisonment.


Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

Reference Number: t18760403-320

320. FREDERICK AYLETT (23) and DANIEL ROBERT SAUNDERS (23), Stealing a quantity of beer, of the goods of the Great Eastern Railway Company, their masters; and WILLIAM BICHENOE (38), feloniously receiving the same.

AYLETT and SAUNDERS PLEADED GUILTYRecommended to mercy Two Months' Imprisonment.

The Court considered that the case against Bichenoe was too slight


Before Robert Malcolm Kerr, Esq,

Reference Number: t18760403-321

321. ARTHUR JAMES HUNT (26) , Unlawfully obtaining by false pretences from the London and Manchester Oil and Soap Company a quantity of soap, with intent to defraud.

MR. LUCAS conducted the Prosecution; and Mr. KEITH FRITH the Defence.

JAMES ASHWORTH . I am manager to this Company at Stratford—I engaged the prisoner as a commercial traveller—he was not entrusted with goods or money—I received a letter on the 3rd January, in consequence of which I parted with some goods—I asked the prisoner if this "Arthur" was a trustworthy man, and he said "Yes"—on the 27th January 1

received a letter from Hunt enclosing an order from Arthur, in consequence of which I sent more goods.

RACHEL ASHWORTH . I am wife of the last witness—on the 23rd March I went with him to Peckham—I went into the shop that was kept by the prisoner in the name of Arthur—there was a young boy there, and I asked for the master of the shop—I did not see him on the 23rd, but on the 24th I did—he said "Is it you that is come to buy this shop?"—I said "Yes"—he wanted 10l. for it—I bought the shop, and he gave me a receipt for 10s. on account—I gave a signal to the detective, who came in.

Cross-examined. There was above 10l. worth of stock.

THE COURT directed the Jury to return a verdict of NOT GUILTY, as there was no intent to defraud, the prisoner appearing to have embarked in a little business of his own, but concealed the fact, fearing he might lose his situation.

Reference Number: t18760403-322

322. ANDREW MOKIN (17) , Stealing 3l. 17s., a pocket book, and other articles, of Denis O'Connor.

MR. NICHOLSON conducted the Prosecution.

DENIS O'CONNOR . I am cook on board a ship lying at the Victoria Dock—I was on board on the 28th February, and missed certain articles out of my box—I had seen them a week after leaving Sydney and a week after we arrived—I was not sufficiently convinced to say anything to the boy—I employed a detective, who searched the prisoner's chest.

Prisoner, I found a purse amongst old rubbish, as I and another boy named Allen McKay were cleaning out.

WILLIAM BUCKINGHAM . I am a detective—my attention was called to a robbery that took place on board this ship on the 28th February—I went on board and searched the prisoner's chest, and found these articles (produced) in it.

Witness for the Defence.

CAPTAIN MURRAY . The prisoner has been under me about eleven months—I have never locked up anything, and always found the boy very honest—I have been at sea since 1856, and never heard of a case like it; I believe it has been done out of malice—no complaint was ever made to me—his box was open the whole journey.



Before Mr. Common Serjeant.

Reference Number: t18760403-323

323. WILLIAM CHARLES SMITH (59) , Unlawfully obtaining 23l. 15.s., 50 bottles, and 46l. 11s., of Louis Friburg, by false pretences.

MR. GOODMAN conducted the Prosecution; and MR. MONTAGU, WILLIAMS the Defence.

LOUIS FRIBURG . I reside at 469, New Cross Road—I was in business as a licensed victualler twenty-five years—I have left it about eighteen months—on 25th May, 1875, the prisoner was introduced to me by a person named Rywall, an auctioneer at New Cross—he said he wanted a little money—I asked what security he could give; he said I might go home to his house in Cooper's Row, Kent Road, and see his furniture; he would give me that as security—I asked him whether, it was encumbered or whether he had any lodgers; he said no, it was all his own—I went with Rywall to the house 30, Cooper's Row, and we took an inventory of two rooms—the prisoner said that all the furniture there belonged to him—his daughter was not there at that time—this bill of sale was written out by

Rywall on that same day, and the prisoner signed it—this is his signature, "W. Chas. Smith" (read)—I advanced him 23l. 15s. on the security of that bill of sale—in August he came again, and said he wanted to increase the loan to about 80l. to purchase a horse and cart—he said he was an, egg merchant, and was supplying the Crystal Palace with eggs and butter—I Bad some stone bottles, to contain from two to seven gallons, and he said he could work them in his business very nicely if I could sell them cheap—they cost me about 15l.; I sold them to him for 6l.—they were branded with other names, which made them rather unsolvable—I gave him 46l. 11s.—I asked him what security he was going to give for it; he said he would give the horse and cart that he was about buying with, the money I was going to lend him—that was added to the bill of sale—no part of the money miss repaid—he put me off several times; at last, hearing that he was in very great difficulties, I went to his house—I then saw him and his daughter—I said I had come for my money—he wanted to put me off a little longer, and said he would pay me every. halfpenny—to make a long story short, I left a man in possession—the daughter said to me, "Is that your authority? this is mine," producing some papers rolled up in her hand—she did not show me what they contained—she said she had got a bill of sale, on the furniture; that her father would be the ruin of them;. it was all her own furniture, and he knew it—she said that in his presence—I afterwards instructed the man to take the goods (away—I afterwards received a notice not to part with them—I kept them for a month in case the prisoner should, redeem them, and then they were sold—an action was brought against me by the daughter in the Common Pleas, and she recovered a verdict for 65l. and costs 7l—I never had any of my money—the prisoner offered me 7l. before I took the goods away.

Cross-examined. My son-in-law, Freeborn, went with me to the prisoner's house—Rywall is not here that I am aware of; he is now somewhere in Fleet Street—the first bill of sale was for a month; I was to have 1l. 5s. for the lean of the 25l. for the month—I have not many customers like that; I do not charge more than 60 per cent—I do not know a man named Diprose; I never heard of him—I was asked that question at the police-court—I don't know that Rywall was connected with Diprose; I have only seen him once for the last six months—I believe I said before the Magistrate "I have persons now indebted to me at the same rate of interest, 60 per cent., on monthly bills of acceptance"—I don't know that the prisoner was charged 2l. 2s. by Rywall for preparing the bill of sale; I gave him half a sovereign—I don't know what the prisoner paid him—both bills of sale were signed at Smith's house; no one was present but Smith, Rywall, and myself—Rywall has drawn half a dozen bills of sale for me—I do not keep any books—I did not tell Smith I would not let him have the money unless he took the bottles; I old the daughter if she would give me 30l. down and a bill of sale for 50l. I would withdraw—I did not like to break the home up—Smith offered to give me 7l., and that was all the money he could scrape together then—would not take it—that was when I left the man in possession—I think here were two or three beds sold at the auction—Smith brought the horse and cart and harness to my place; I sold them—I don't know who bought hem; they fetched about 11l.—the prisoner was sober when he signed the ill of sale—we went into a public-house after it was settled—Rywall was a the Common Pleas when the action was tried; he was not called as a

witness—that was the last time I saw him—I know a man named Coles I charged him 60 per cent.; I have not received the money—I said at the trial that I sometimes charged 2 1/2 per cent. when it was longer than a month—Rywall read out the bill of sale and witnessed it—I have not endeavoured to bring him here as a witness.

JAMES SMITH I live at 30, Cooper Road—I am a purveyor of eggs for glove manufacturers and leather dressers—they are put in patent jars—the prisoner is my father; he lived in the house with me—the house belonged to him, and his name was on the door—he has got into difficulties on several occasions—on one occasion a distress was put in for rent, and I bought the goods with money earned by my own exertions—I was in business quite apart from my father—the whole of the furniture mentioned in the schedule to the bill of sale is mine; my father knew that they had become mine prior to May, 1875—1 brought an action against the prosecutor and recovered damages.

Cross-examined. Mr. Freeborn first came to the house on the 4th October and waited till my father came home—he took possession and then left a man there, and the goods were removed next day most disgracefully and left me almost destitute—I did not say I had a bill of sale; I said I would show my authority, and I offered to show my receipts for the furniture, and Mr. Friburg said they were got up for the occasion, and he wished me to come to his terms, to pay 30l. down and sign a bill of sale of my furniture for 50l—I refused, and on that they cleared the house of everything—I should think the value of the things they took away was between 200l. and 300l.—they took my piano, and nearly broke it in pieces it taking it out—I saw these bottles; I should not think they were worth 3l.—the horse was valued at 30l. or 40l., and the cart cost 25l.; they were not mine.

RICHARD FREEBORN . I live at 13, Laura Grove, New Cross, and am a theatrical manager—I am the prosecutor's son-in-law—on the 25th October I went with him to 30, Cooper's Row—the prisoner said all the goods in the house belonged to him, and the Brock as well.

Cross-examined. I am at present out of business—I was in the police eight months, and was discharged for intoxication—I turned theatrical manager about three years afterwards; it was the Elephant and Castle, New Kent Road—I was at the sale; Rywall was not there I know him very well—I saw him on Thursday or Friday last—he is with Mr. Holloway, the auctioneer, of Fleet Street.

GUILTY. Strongly recommended to mercy by the Jury Four Months' Imprisonment.

Reference Number: t18760403-324

324. THOMAS WILES (24) , Stealing a silver tankard and other articles of John Crossby Fielding in his dwelling-house.

MR. PURCELL conducted the Prosecution.

WALTER CAPE . I am coachman to Mr.—Fielding, of Lewisham—on the afternoon of February 3rd I saw the prisoner leaving the premises with a carpenters basket—about five minutes afterwards I went into the house made enquires and some plate was missed which has not been recovered—on 17th February a policeman took me to Kennington Lane where I picked the prisoner out from seven or eight men.

JOSEPH PAYNE . I am footman to Mr. Fielding—on 3rd February about 3 o'clock or 3.15 I missed a tankard, a goblet, a spirit stand, and a mug which I had seen safe at a few minutes before 3 o'clock.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. I did not say at Deptford that it was 3.15 that the goods were taken and that you left the house at 3 o'clock.

CHARLES TIMMS (Policeman P 365). On 14th February I took the prisoners at Norwood on a charge of begging, he was taken to Lambbeth police-court and remanded till the 22nd—I saw Cape in the mean time. and he went to Lambeth and identified the prisoner among seven or eight others—he was sentence to 21 days for begging and on his release I apprehended him on this charge.

The Prisoner's Statement before the Magistrate. "I am not the man, it is not likely I should go begging in that neighbourhood if I had stolen the plate."

Prisoner's Defence. If I had taken it I should have bought clothes with the money who would trust me with an umbrella to repair in such clothes as these? I was compelled to ask a gentleman for a trifle" of bread for my children but I know nothing about this. I don't know where I was on 3rd February I made the remark to the Magistrate that I was seen there after the goods were missed.

GUILTY *— Nine Months' Imprisonment.

Reference Number: t18760403-325

325. ROBERT LONGHURST (20) , PLEADED GUILTY to unlawfully obtainting 50l. and 10l. of David Noakes by false pretence— Eighteen Months' Imprisonment.

Reference Number: t18760403-326

326. JAMES QUINLAN (15) , Stealing a watch the property of Robert Huntley.

MR. RINGWOOD conducted the Prosecution.

HARRIETT HUNTLEY . I am the wife of Robert Huntley, of Ampthill Road, New Cross—on 24th March about 12.15 o'clock I had a watch on the mantle-piece in my parlour—I went into the back garden for quarter of a hour or twenty minutes but did not leave the door open—when I returned the area door and the parlour door were open and in two or three minutes I missed the watch it was worth about 25s. this is it (produced) the detective showed it to me.

HENRY GOODWIN (Policeman R 289). On 24th March about 2 p.m., I took the prisoner in Deptford Broadway on another charge—he passed this watch to another person; I siezed them both and took the watch out of the other person's hands—the prisoner said that it was his father's watch and: he going to ask the young man to take it home—I made enquires and found that it was not his father's watch—he then said that he gave 7s. 6d. forefoot a young man in the Broadway.

Prisoner's Defence. I bought the watch for 7s. but I do not know the person.

GUILTY**† of receiving Eighteen Month's Imprisonment.

There were also other Indictments, against the prisoner.

Reference Number: t18760403-327

327. JOSEPH JOHN COPELAND (21), Burglariously breaking and entering the dwelling-house of William Stimpson and stealing boots and other articles. Second Count—Receiving.

MR. THORNE Cole conducted the Prosecution.

WILLIAM STIMPSON . I am a cow keeper, of 43, Sydenham Park, Lewisham—my house was broken into on the night of the 30th November—I came downstairs about 5.45 in the morning—I found the back kitchen window open—I missed a pair of long boots that came up to your knee, such as fire-men wear—I missed another pair of boots, which are here, at least I cannot

swear to them myself—when I went to bed the night before the place was perfectly safe, about 10 o'clock——the kitchen window was not fast, but closed—I have no doubt that these boots (produced) are mine, they are similar—I only had them two days previously to being taken; they were made by Mr. Pearce; they are worth about 15s.

JAMES PEARCE . I am a bootmaker, living near the prosecutor—these boots were made for him by me.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. I am sure I made those boots—there is a difference in them now, they had tips on the heels which have been taken off—Mr. Stimpson always has his boots made in a particular way.

JOHN JAMES FOX (Policeman P 8). On the night of the 12th February I took the prisoner into custody for loitering near the prosecutor's house, Sydenham Park—I searched him and found this knife (produced) in his breast pocket and a box of silent matches—I took him to the station and made him take off these boots; they had these pieces of carpet (produced) inside to pad them out—I asked him how he came in the possession of the boots, and he said he bought them in October last.

GODFREY FIELDER (Detective Officer P). I found a box nearly full of lucifers in the prisoner's pocket.

Prisoner's Defence. I made a mistake in saying I bought the boots in October, it was last Christmas. The weather being very cold, and I suffering from chilblains, is the reason I bought them rather large. I cannot call the man I bought them of, because I did not take notice of the name nor the street. I do not think the boots ever belonged to Mr. Stimpson.


Reference Number: t18760403-328

328. JOSEPH JOHN COPELAND (21), was again indicted for feloniously breaking and entering the dwelling-house of George Ware and stealing a coat and other articles. Second Count——Receiving same.

MR. THORNE COLE conducted the Prosecution.

GEORGE WARE . I keep the Railway Tavern, Sydenham—on the night of the 29th January my house was entered—I missed a great coat, undercoat, vest, pair of trowsers, a lady's jacket, and a pair of cloth boots—this coat (produced) I swear is my property—all my property was safe at 7 o'clock in the evening—we went to bed at 12.30—as I was passing upstairs I noticed two large bed-room windows open; they were always shut before dark—I found a table knife near one of these windows—the value of the property altogether is about 20l.—I know the prisoner by sight perfectly well—his father lived at Peak Hill at the back of my place.

RICHARD BUDGEON . I live at 9, Clyde Place, Forest Hill, and am a carman—on Saturday night, the 29th January, I was in the Bird-in-Hand public-house—I saw the prisoner there at about 9 o'clock—he had a bundle with him, and said he had a very d—bad day at Sydenham—he offered me a pair of trowsers for sale which I bought for 1s.—he offered me a waistcoat for 6d.; I did not think it was worth the money and would not have it—he sold a coat to a man of the name of Cheeseman, for 4s.

CHARLES CHEESEMAN . I live at 7, Clyde Terrace, Forest Hill—on 29th January, I was in the taproom of the Bird-in-Hand public-house—to the best of my belief the prisoner is the man I saw there—it was as near as I can recollect, about 8.45 when I went in—he had a bundle of clothes with him, and he offered me this coat (produced) for sale which I bought for 4s. 6d.—on the following Monday, in consequence of a communication I gave the coat up to the police.

Cross-examined by the Prisoner. I will not swear that you are the man; only to the best of my belief.

GUILTY . He also PLEADED GUILTY to a previous conviction, and other considions were proved against him—— Seven Years' Penal Servitude.

Before Robert Malcolm Kerr, Esq.

Reference Number: t18760403-329

329. THOMAS COOKSON (20), and FANNY BRADY (20) , Feloniously by force taking away one William Jeffery, a child of the age of fourteen months with intent to deprive John Jeffery, the parent, of the possession of the said child.

MR. KEITH and MR. FRITH conducted the Prosecution. EMILY JEFFERY. I am the wife of John Jeffery—I remember the 26th, February—I, sent my child Emily out that day with this baby to her grandmother—she came home without it—I Heard it had been stolen—I went to the police-station and made enquiries, but heard nothing of it until the 3rd March—the detectives found it—at the time I lost him he was wearing a white shirt, a petticoat, and a frock, and boots, and socks, but he was not wearing the same when I found him—his hair was also cut.

EMILY JEFFERY . I am eleven years old and live with my mother, at 3, Basins Follet—I was sent to grandmother's, on 26th February, with the baby, my brother; I was returning home along Trafalgar Road, at about 7.20—there was a band of music playing, and I saw Polly Perkins standing there—Fanny Brady touched me on the shoulder and asked me to get a 1d. worth of the rosyest red apples I could, and gave me a 1d. for myself—when I came back I found my sister crying, and she said the woman had run away with the baby; I ran to my grandmother and told her—I sent my sister home.

Cross-examined by Cookson. You did not take the child font of my arms.

WILLIAM MORGAN (Policeman R 155). In consequence of information I received I went to 20, Waterman's Fields, Woolwich—the prisoner Brady had left there, so I sent to where she was living; told her I was a police-constable and had come to make enquiries about a child she had in her possession—she said "I have a child and got it from a woman"—she did lot know where she lived—I accompanied her to where she had lived for some time, and on going upstairs I saw a child that answered the descripion I had received—on the way to the station she said "He took it, I did lot take it, he carried it all the way home"—I said who is "he"—she said 'I will not tell you his name, if I am to suffer, I will suffer alone."

PATRICK DAVIS (Policeman R 238). I went, in consequence of informaion, to 6, Sandy Hill—in the room that was occupied by the two prisoners found several pieces of paper, which on putting them together I saw to a soldiers pass in the name of Thomas Cookson—I apprehended him in another part of the house—he said "I know nothing about the child"—I took him before the superior officer and repeated the charge, and he made to reply—afterwards he said "The female prisoner took tickets for him and her to Greenwich, and when they got there she walked over to where the hilled was standing with the child in her arms, took the child and then me back together; I did not know she meant to steal the child."

GUILTY Eighteen Months' Imprisonment each.

Reference Number: t18760403-330

330. MORRIS DONOGHUE (22), THOMAS MALONEY (18), JOHN ROONEY (25), RICHARD MALONEY (21), and MICHAEL BARRY (19), Unlawfully assaulting Frederick Richbell, a police officer in the execution of his duty.


MR. MEAD conducted the Prosecution; and MR. CHARLES MATTHEWS defended Rooney.

FREDERICK RICHBELL (Policeman R 235). On Saturday, 19th February, I was on duty at the top of High Street, Deptford—I was fetched by the landlord of the Fishing Smack public-house—I there saw Richard Maloney, Barry, and Donoghue—they were pushing each other about inside the house—the landlord pointed out Maloney and Barry to me and said "Turn those two men out, they have been very disorderly all the evening"—I took hold of Richard Maloney and put him outside—he struck me in the mouth and ran away; several people came up at the time—I ran after him, struck him across the leg, and he fell on the pavement—I left him there and went back to the house after Barry; he was drinking at the bar—I said he was to go out—he said he would throw the beer over me, or some remark of that kind—I was then kicked by Donoghue on the leg—I succeeded in turning Barry out—he stood outside in a fighting attitude and struck me on the head and shoulder—I then drew my truncheon and hit him on the leg—he ran away; I caught him a short distance down the street—he began to cry and begged me not to strike him again—I said I would not do so if he behaved in a proper manner—on going towards the station I received a blow at the back of the ear from Richard Maloney—I tried to catch hold of him, he slipped through ray hands, got between ray legs and pulled me down, and when I was down I was kicked by both of them—a man who was lying on the ground beside me kicked me with his heels—I got up and still kept hold of Barry—I went down a second time in a doorway, and while on the ground I was kicked by a number of men round including Barry and Maloney—Barry came up a second time after he got away and kicked me in the eye; I had to put my hand up to receive the blow or 1 should have suffered severe injuries—I was thrown across the doorstep and Maloney was a-top of me and bumping my head and there was a number of others round me; among them I saw Rooney and Thomas Maloney—I was lying on my back and Richard Maloney was on the top of me—somebody got hold of him and got him off me—I then got up and followed him for a short distance, and he turned round and butted me and I was kicked in the back and lower part of my body.

Cross-examined. This was about 7 o'clock in the evening—the crowd was composed of about fifty—it was fairly dark—I was a good deal excited—I was as bad as I could be, severely injured and exhausted.

EDWARD WILLIAM OVERTON . I am landlord of the Fishing Smack—on this Saturday evening Richard Maloney and Barry were in my house, they were misbehaving themselves—I sent for a constable and he came and turned them out—I did not see Donoghue do anything.

GEORGE EVERITT . I saw Barry in custody of the policeman as I was outside the Fishing Smack—I saw the policeman bring Richard Maloney out, Maloney made a punch at him and hit him in the mouth and ran away—the constable hit him across the leg with his staff and he fell and cried—the constable then returned to the public-house—Barry made a kick at him and punched him, I don't know whether he did kick him—I saw the constable down in the crowd—I did not see Rooney or Thomas Maloney there.

CATHERINE MCSWAINE . I live at 9, Old King Street—I was looking out of my window and saw the constable walking along without his hat, he had Maloney by the arm—I saw Barry come out of the house and shove and kick him until he rescued Maloney—the constable hit him. and he began to cry—the constable said if he would go along quietly he would allow him to do so—he was then kicked by Richard Maloney—I saw him in the doorway and they kicked him there several times—I recognise Richard Maloney and Barry—I called out "Don't kill the policeman"—a man called me a foul name and asked me if if I was going to take the policeman's part—I said "No"—I ran up the street to see for another policeman.

JOHN O'BRIEN . I live at 15, Old King Street, Deptford—on this night I saw a crowd of persons and saw the constable Richbell with Barry in custody—Barry tried to get away and "he hit him with his staff and he fell down and cried—he had not got 3 yards when I believe it was Richard Maloney caught hold of him round the waist and got him into a doorway and began punching him, this continued for three minutes—the policeman got up and ran after him, but was too exhausted to catch him—it was very hard to see who was in the doorway there were so many there—I could only identify Maloney and Barry there.

FREDERICK GREENFIELD (Police Inspector.) On February, the 19tb, police-constable Richbell was brought in by two private individuals, he was in an exhausted state—I noticed several bruises and an, eye wound—his mouth was bleeding—he described some persons and I went out and had them apprehended—shortly afterwards Thomas Maloney, Barry, and Rooney were brought in, and he immediately identified them—Thomas Maloney said he had nothing to do with them—Rooney said he was in the Prince Regent public-house and had nothing to do with it at all—the Prince Regent is 300 or 400 yards from the Fishing Smack.

THOMAS FRANCIS (Policeman R). I took Rooney into custody—I found him outside the Prince Regent public-house—I told him he would be charged with assaulting the constable—he said he was not there, and asked me how long ago it was—I said about half an hour—he said "I have been in the Prince Regent about an hour and a half"—I said "You could not have been, because I met you in High Street"—I met them just before I heard of the disturbance, about twenty minutes—I saw him 200 yards from the Prince Regent—he was with Thomas Maloney.

GEORGE BEOKWITH (Policeman R). On March 4th I arrested Barry at Barking—I charged him with assaulting Frederick Richbell—he said he was drunk at the time, he knew all about it—I found some marks on him at the back of his head.

WILLIAM WOODSFORD (Policeman R). I took Donoghue into custody from police-constable Sandys and charged him with being concerned with others in assaulting Constable Richbell—he said he knew nothing of the recognised him.

ROBERT HENRY SANDYS (Policeman R 297). I took Thomas Maloney and Rooney into custody—I met Donoghue first and told him the charge—he said at the station he was there, but didn't assault the constable—I apprelended Thomas Maloney at a different place—he was running away—I Pursued him, told him the charge, and he said he was there, but did not assault the constable.

EDWARD HUGH DOWNING . lam a surgeon, of 419, New Cross Road, Deptford

—I saw the constable, Richbell, first of all on the Sunday 20th, the day after the occurrence—he was suffering from severe contusions, large cut on the right eye, and on the left knee, he received an injury at the lower part of his back, and great numbness of limbs—he is still under my treatment—he was in danger at one time.

Prisoner's Statements before the Magistrate. Donoghue says: "I am innocent, and have witnesses to prove it." Thomas Maloney says: "I was in the King William from 7.45 until late that evening, and as I came out I was told my brother was fighting with the constable. I ran to tell my brother the policemen were after him, and the police came and caught me." Rooney says: "I have witnesses to prove I was not there." Richard Maloney says: "I have a witness to prove I never kicked the policeman." Barry says: "I have a witness to prove I never kicked the policeman."

Witnesses for the Defence.

PATRICK LAHEE . I live at 10, Rope Wharf, Deptford—I was not near the row, and did not see it—I saw Donoghue taken by the police, and he never interfered with the row at all.

Cross-examined. I was in the public-house with Donoghue—I saw Barry and Maloney turned out—Barry struggled a good deal.

MR. FINNITY. I was in the Fishing Smack bar on the evening of the row—I saw Donoghue standing there, and I never saw him do anything out of the way—I was there the whole of the time.

Cross-examined. I never went out to see the row—there were several in the bar beside myself.

MR. OVERTON. Donoghue was in the house that night—he never left the house, I am sure.

Cross-examined. I saw Barry resist—there was a scuffle—there was no kicking by Donoghue.

WILLIAM LONG . I met Thomas Maloney—we had several drinks, and went into the public-house together—he could not have taken part in the row because of his being with me.

Cross-examined. I went to the King William about 4 o'clock; it might be after—I left very soon after 7 o'clock—I was once in trouble for going down the river in another man's boat, and fined 10s.—I have never been in prison.

GUILTY .—Several previous convictions were proved against Donoghue, Rooney, and Barry.

DONOGHUE— Twelve Months' Imprisonment. RICHARD and THOMAS MALONEY, ROONEY, and BARRY— Five Years' Penal Servitude.

Reference Number: t18760403-331

331. ALFRED SMITH (21), and ELLEN SMITH (24) , Burglariously entering the dwelling-house of Joseph Bretherton Martin, and stealing spoons, forks, two knives, &c. Second Count—Receiving.


No evidence was offered against Ellen Smith



Before Robert Malcolm Kerr, Esq.

Reference Number: t18760403-332

332. GEORGE HOWS (16) , Unlawfully uttering a counterfeit half-crown to Annie Watson. Second Count—A florin to Emma Marsh.

MR. POLAND conducted the Prosecution.

ANNE WATSON . I am barmaid at The Harold public-house, Borough Market—on the 28th February, about noon, I served the prisoner with half a quartern of gin, which came to 2 1/2d.—he gave me a bad half-crown—I gave it to Mr. Geary, who spoke to the prisoner—he said that a woman with a blue bonnet and a red shawl gave it to him—he had a bottle with him.

JAMES GEARY . I keep The. Harrow—the last witness brought me this half crown—I asked the prisoner where he took it; he said from a woman in the street, who requested him to fetch some gin for her, and promised him 1 1/2d. for his trouble, and that she was at the corner of the street, with a blue bonnet and a red shawl—I went out, but could see no such woman—I gave the prisoner in charge with the coin.

JOHN LOCK (Policeman M 154). I took the prisoner and received this coin—I asked him to see if he could find the woman, but he could not—he was remanded for a week, and then discharged.

EMMA MARSH . I am barmaid at The Equestrian, Blackfriars Road—on the 23rd March, about 12.15, I served the prisoner with half a pint of porter, price Id.—he gave me a florin; I bent it in the detector, and told him it was bad—he said that he was not aware of it, and said "Pray don't look me up"—I gave it to another barmaid, who asked him how he came by it—he said that he had pushed a truck from London Bridge—I gave him in custody with the florin.

WILLIAM BAKER (Policeman, L 14). The prisoner was given into my custody; he said that a man gave him the florin for pushing a truck from London Bridge nearly to Clapham.

WILLIAM JOHN-WEBSTER . I am inspector of coin to the Mint—this half-crown and florin are bad.

GUILTY on the second count. Strongly recommended to mercy by the Jury on account of his youth Fourteen Days' Imprisonment and five years' in Feltham Reformatory.

Reference Number: t18760403-333

333. JOHN MORRIS (27) , Buglariously breaking and entering the welling-house of John Charles Jowett, and stealing therein five pipes and cases, his property.

MR. HENRY GIFFARD conducted the Prosecution.

BOBERT BRIGHAM (Policeman). On the 21st March, a little after 3 'clock, I was in Upper Kennington Lane, and heard glass breaking at No. 130—I saw the prisoner going away from the shop, stopped him, and asked him what he was doing—he gave me a pipe and said that he had found it—I took him back to the shop, saw a pane of glass broken and the pipes disturbed—I asked him where the pipes were, and he gave me these five pipes and cases from his pocket—I called the prosecutor, who gave him in barge—there are no shutters to the shop.

JOHN CHARLES JOWETT . I am a tobacconist, of 230, Upper Kennington and—on the 21st March, about 3 a.m., I was called by the constable, who lowed me some pipes, which were mine, and were safe the night before.


He was further charged with-a-previous conviction at Newington March, 1870, to which he

PLEADED GUILTY Seven Years' Penal Servitude.

Reference Number: t18760403-334

334. JOHN BELL (35) , Embezzling and stealing several sums of money received by him on account of John Pearce and. others, the trustees of a train friendly society, by which he was employed as clerk and servant.

MR. BESLEY conducted the Prosecution; and

MR. SAFFORD the Defence.

CHARLES FORDHAM . I live at 3, Passmore Terrace, Peckham Park Road

—in Whiting Street, Waterloo Road, there is a tent of the Retaliate Society—about the 1st February, 1876, I drew a cheque upon our funds for the payment of the quarter's contribution to the London District—I paid the prisoner in the tent room at Whiting Street; he gave me this paper "F," signed by him—it is a document of our society. (Rend: "Independent Order of Retaliates. Pay Mr. Brother Bell, district secretary, the sum of 2l. 9s. 2d. for district dues. By order, F. Franklin, C.R.,.")

Cross-examined. MR. FRANKLIN was the chief ruler of the tent at the time—this is in his handwriting—the treasurer was present at the time—he is the right man to receive the money.

THOMAS CARTMELL . I live at Victoria Terrace, Queen's Road, Peckham, and am a member of the committee of the Reckabite Society, London district—I am also a member of the finance committee—on the Sunday, before the 29th May, 1875,1 paid the sum of 2l. to the defendant, and on 29th I paid him 135s. 1d.; I received from him this receipt (produced). This was a receipt by J. Bell, secretary.)

Cross-examined. That is from the district, not drawn up by our tent—they are book receipts and differ—we have a balance-sheet for 74l., but not 75l. on account of the prisoner's defalcations—I was present at the committee meeting at the beginning of this year, when a resolution was come to in reference to the prisoner. (A letter from the prisoner was put in and read. It contained the following: "Dear Sister and Brother,—Just; a line of apology for my unavoidable absence last evening, c. As to all the members being glad when they get shut of me this is to be proved. After nearly four years labour, sacrificing time, money, and health; I am not to be insulted by any member of the order in this way.") That is a private letter, I cannot say whether it is true when he took office there was not a 1d., and not only that, but in the hands of a man we could not get hold of—Mr. Jump, is our past district chief ruler, to whom the letter was written, and he has had it in his possession until I had it this week—no accountant has been appointed to go into these accounts.

HENRY SATURLEY . I live at North End, Fulham, and am a member of this society—I paid to the defendant 1l. 15s. 10d., and also 1l. 15s. 7d., and had this receipt (produced) from him—that was on account of the contribution of the tent to the district.

Cross-examined. I paid it in cash to the defendant himself—the receipt is his handwriting.

THOMAS JOHN RYAN . I am a member of this society—the defendant has been our secretary of the London district, and acted as such.

Cross-examined. The secretary is appointed by resolution of the committee—he is paid a salary of 10l. per annum.

Re-examined. The 29th January, 1876, was the time when he ceased to be secretary—(minute-book handed in)—it is my signature at the 1st June—I was present at the meetings of the society. (A certified copy of the rules was handed in. A resolution was read as follows: " Resolved that Brother Bell be elected secretary.") He continued to act until January, 1876—it is noted (in the book) that the secretary's salary be left until the next meeting—I think I was not present at the meeting held in February last, with reference to prosecuting the prisoner—I know Mr. Jump, I do not remember the production by him of the letter—the accounts have not been gone into by an accountant, that I am aware of—I ceased to be chief ruler some two years ago; I think early in 1874—when the prisoner was appointed, it is

incorrect that there were only eleven members; I should say between 200 and 300—I did not say before the Magistrate there were eleven members—I signed the depositions; I did not hear them read over—it was at the Southwark police-court—I cannot exactly swear they were not read over to me; I read them—since the prisoner has been secretary the members have greatly increased—he has been a very industrious secretary—I think there are 700 or 800 members now—in 1873 and 1874 he was ill and attended by a doctor; I do not know it was our own doctor. (The witness depositions stated he was attended by our own doctor). It was the treasurer's duty to receive these monies.

Re-examined. The increase of the numbers was not entirely brought about by Mr. Bell—he recovered from the illness and attended to his duties, making no complaints.

FURR (cross-examined). I do not know that Mr. Bell's Balary has not been paid for last year—I doubt that there are 23l. owing to him at the present time from the society.

JOHN HOPKINS . I live in Essex and was treasurer for three or four years up to June, 1875, for the London district of this society; the defendant acted as secretary—(looking at three-papers marked F. E. and K., and referring to three sums of money), he has never given me these sums of money—he used to see me at my place of business when I did not attend the meetings to hand over to me the monies he had—I believe I miscalled all the counterfoils for monies received—(treasurer's cash book produced) this book has not always been compared with the check-book—the entries were made by my clerk always in my presence—I never entered them myself—even at the district meeting I put them on a sheet if paper and took it home for my clerk to enter—I compared the sheet if paper with the book and checked the amounts—this will enable me to ay positively that he did not account for these three sums.

Cross-examined. I attended to the business as treasurer like most others I did not attend regularly—it is my duty to attend every district meeting—I do not know that in my absence he acted for me—when I was at the meetings I signed every counterfoil—when I was not there I signed them other night. (The witness' depositions, being read, stated; "I have not received from the prisoner those monies. I used to attend the meetings, at I did not attend regularly. I cannot say what I received. When I did at attend he used to come or send to me. I used to receipt the counter hills and the receipts were given in my absence"). (One of the society's rules ad as follows was: "The treasurer shall receive and pay all monies.") I day it is my duty to receive monies, but only from the secretary—that is my perpetration of the rule with regard to the monies he received on behalf of the society—the entries were made by either my clerk, daughter, or myself—I do not know that the prisoner after I had made entries saw them in deer to know if I had them down all right.

The Jury stated that the whole difficulty in the case arose from the loose and tersely bad way of keeping the books. The prisoner was charged on two other documents on which no evidence was offered.


Reference Number: t18760403-335

335. GEORGE BEAVIS (22) and GEORGE BILBE (23) , Burglariously peaking and entering the dwelling-house of Alfred Lamb and stealing two coats. Second Count—Receiving

MR. DOUGLAS conducted the Prosecution; Mr. C. Mathews defended Beave; and Mr. Foster Reed defended Bilbe..

ALFRED LAMB . I live at 31, Brontie Place, Walworth, and am a laundry-man—I was awoke on the 3rd March at 1 o'clock in the morning by a ring at the bell—I went down and found a constable at the door—I found the parlour window wide open—it was shut when I went to bed the night before—I missed two coats which the. policeman brought in.

DAVID JACKMAN (Policeman P 424). I was in Brontie Place, Walworth, and observed 4 men standing underneath a lamp post—I concealed myself and watched them ten minutes—I saw Beavis get on to the fence and open the window—Bilbe shortly after got up and got into the window—I was about 20 yards off—I crossed the road towards the house—there was a lamp shining right in front—one of the two outside called "Look out"—the two prisoners got out of the window and ran away—I ran after them—a gentle man named Barton ran after the whole of them—they did not all run the same way—I apprehended Bilbe the same afternoon at Beavis' lodgings—directly Mr. Barton saw the prisoner Bilbe at the station he said "That's the man."

Cross-examined by MA MATHEWS. One of the coats was picked up in Portland Street and the other in the prosecutor's garden.

Cross-examined by MR. REED saw them by the light of the lamp—I only saw the backs of the other two men—Bilbe had gone to the other prisoner's house for work, I believe, when I arrested him—nothing was found in his possession.

HENRY WALTER BARTON . I live at 110, Neate Street, Camberwell—I saw four men, about 1.15, running—I ran after them and stopped Beavis—I saw him throw down a coat—I had a good sight of all their faces as they passed me—Bilbe is one of the four.

Cross-examined by MR. REED. I was taken to identify Bilbe the nest evening—there was only one man there—I gave the description to the sergeant—directly I saw him I said "That is the man."

ALFRED BOREHAM . I live at St. George's Terrace, Peokham, and am a cabdriver—I was in Brontie Street on the 3rd March, in the morning—I saw Beavis and three others, and stood and watched them—I saw Beavis enter the premises of Mr. Lamb; another one entered, to whom I am not prepared to swear.

Cross-examined by MR. MATHEWS. I saw the prisoners about 30 yards off—I was in conversation with the constable—after I passed them I was close by the constable, and had the same opportunity of seeing, but could not swear to Bilbe—I believe he is the man.

GUILTY . Several previous convictions were proved against Bilbe. BEAVIS— Two Years' Imprisonment.

BILBE— Seven Years' Penal Servitude.

Reference Number: t18760403-336

336. WILLIAM HENRY HOLT Unlawfully taking one Florence Ellen Rattray, an unmarried girl under sixteen years of age, out of the possession of her father.



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