CENTRAL CRIMINAL COURT
FOURTH SESSION, HELD JANUARY 28TH, 1867.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE,
TAKEN IN SHORT-HAND BY
JAMES DROVER BARNETT
Short-hand Writers to the Court,
THE POINTS OF LAW AND PRACTICE
REVISED AND EDITED BY
EDWARD T. E. BESLEY, ESQ.,
OF THE MIDDLE TEMPLE, BARRISTER-AT-LAW.
BUTTERWORTHS, 7, FLEET STREET,
Law Publishers to the Queen's Most Excellent Majesty.
On the Queen's Commission of
OYER AND TERMINER AND GAOL DELIVERY
The City of London,
AND GAOL DELIVERY FOR THE
COUNTY OF MIDDLESEX, AND THE PARTS OF THE COUNTIES OF ESSEX, KENT, AND SURREY WITHIN THE JURISDICTION
CENTRAL CRIMINAL COURT,
Held on Monday, January 28th, 1867, and following days,
BEFORE THE RIGHT HON. THOMAS GABRIEL, LORD MAYOR of the City of London; Sir COLIN BLACKBURN , Knt., one of the Justices of Her Majesty's Court of Queen's Bench; Sir HENKY SINGER KEATING, Knt., one of the Justices of Her Majesty's Court of Common Pleas; Sir FRANCIS GRAHAM MOON , F.S.A., Bart., and JOHN CARTER , Esq., F.A.S. and F.R.A.S., Aldermen of the said City; The Right Hon. RUSSELL GURNEY , Q.C., M.P., Recorder of the said City; WILLIAM FERNELEY ALLEN, Esq., THOMAS DAKIN , Esq., ROBERT BESLEY , Esq., and WILLIAM JAMES RICHMOND COTTON , Esq., Aldermen of the said City; THOMAS CHAMBERS , Esq., Q.C., M.P., Common Serjeant of the said City; and ROBERT MALCOLM KERR , Esq., LL.D., Judge of the Sheriffs Court; Her Majesty's Justices of Oyer and Terminer and General Gaol delivery of Newgate, holden for the said City, and Judges of the Central Criminal Court.
CENTRAL CRIMINAL COURT.
GABRIEL, MAYOR. FOURTH SESSION.
A star (*) denotes that prisoners have been previously in custody—two stars (**) that they have been more than once in custody—an obelisk (†) that they are known to be the associates of bad characters—the figures after the name in the indictment denote the prisoner's age.
LONDON AND MIDDLESEX CASES.
OLD COURT.—Monday, January 28th, 1867.
Before Mr. Recorder.
195. THOMAS CHARLES CUTHBERT (33), HENRY BROWN (36), and WILLIAM NEWMAN (26) were indicted for stealing on the 13th of October twenty-four yards of silk and twelve yards of satin of Sherbrook Taylor and another. Two other Counts for stealing other silk on other days, and three other Counts for feloniously receiving.
MR. BESLEY, in opening the case for the prosecution, stated that the Counts upon which he should rely would be those for receiving.
After the examination of the first witness, MR. STRAIGHT, on behalf of Newman, took objection to the form of the indictment. The Counts for receiving did not allege that the goods received were the same as the goods charged to have been stolen; and as the Act of Parliament only permitted Counts for stealing and receiving to be joined in the one indictment, where that was the pose he submitted that it was a bad indictment, and must be quashed. MR. BESLEY contended that it was not a material averment that the goods should be the same, and referred to Reg, v. Knowlden, 9 Cox's Criminal Cases. He also submitted that if the Counts were bad for duplicity, all the Court could do would be to put the prosecutor to his election.
THE RECORDER. I am sorry to say I think this objection must prevail. I am very unwilling to stop a case unless I feel clearly that the objection is a good one. This case is perfectly distinguishable from that just cited by Mr. Besley, because there the qualification was this:—The rule in criminal pleading is, that where there is a general jurisdiction, and the qualification is subsequently put upon that, it is not necessary to enter the qualification on the record. Here, the authority to proceed in the way they have proceeded is given by statute; then it must appear that the statute has been complied with, and that the case comes within the provisions of the statute. By the statute it is
provided that they shall be at liberty to unite these Counts in the way in which they have been united here, when they are the same goods which are both stolen and received. But that is not stated here. Therefore it seems to me that this statute would not assist the prosecution. I was disposed to think at first that the only effect of that would be that under the old law I should, put the prosecutor to his election, whether he would proceed upon the, Counts for stealing or the Counts for receiving, because informer times that was the course pursued; it was only said it was irregular to unite the Counts, and the Judges held they must elect upon which they would proceed; but I have looked at the 11 and 12 Vict., where power is given to unite together in the same indictment Counts for stealing and receiving, and I find in the preamble a sort of decalratory statement: "Whereas, according to the present practice of Courts of Criminal Jurisdiction it is not permitted in an indictment for stealingproperty to add a Count for receiving the same, or in an indictment for receiving to add. a Count for stealing the same property." Therefore the Legislature have declared that it cannot be done except under a power given by the subsequent Acts, and this case not being brought within those subsequent Acts, I must act upon that, and hold that the indictment is bad, and cannot be proceeded upon.
The Jury were directed to find the prisoners NOT GUILTY on the Counts for stealing, and the Counts for receiving were quashed.
Afresh indictment was subsequently preferred and found by the Grand Jury, the trial of which was postponed to the next Session.
The following prisoners PLEADED GUILTY:—
NEW COURT.—Monday, January, 28th, 1867.
Before Mr. Common Serjeant.
MESSRS. CRAUFURD and GRAIN conducted the Prosecution.
JOHN COOPER . I am assistant to Mr. Cooper, a pork butcher, of 25, Newgate Street—on the 5th of January a man named Davis (See next case) came in for 1lb. of sausages, which came to 6d., he gave me a shilling—I put it between my teeth and found it bad—he took it out of my hand and gave me a good one—I gave him 6d. change—this (produced) is the shilling; the prisoner showed it to me afterwards, with the sausages.
HENRY GREASBY . I am a cart minder, of Giltspur Street—on the 5th of I January, about seven A.M., I was in Newgate Street, outside Mr. Cooper's I shop, and saw the prisoner and Davis—I had received information, and spoke to a constable—we followed them down Skinner Street, and stopped them in Farringdon Street—Lammas stopped Davis, searched him, and pulled out a paper containing florins, which he handed to me—I said that I they were bad, and gave them back to Lammas—I saw another paper I with a shilling at the top, but ho did not give that to me—Randall was
searched at the station, but nothing more was found—as Davis took his boots off, a shilling fell out by my feet—Randall said, "I picked up the money in the street."
JAMES LAMMAS (321 City). I followed the prisoners with Greasby from Newgate Street to Farringdon Street—they were in conversation—I took Randall by the arm and asked him what he had—he said, "Nothing; what do you stop me in die public streets for?"—I said, "You are in. possession of counterfeit coin"—he said, "I have none"—he was going to put his hand in his pocket, but I took from his hand four florins wrapped in tissue paper, and five shillings in another paper, bad money—I got him to the station with great difficulty, and Greasby took Davis—I found a pound of sausages in Davis's hand, and a good sixpence in his pocket—I told him to take his boots off, and this bad shilling (produced) rolled out of one of them—I showed it to Cooper, with the sausages, and he recognised them—Randall refused his address, Davis gave his at a lodging-house in Kent Street, Borough—Randall then said, "Oh! I live with him; I sleep with him."
Prisoner's Defence. I picked them up.
GUILTY . He was further charged with having been before convicted of a like offence.
GEORGE FARRANCE (762 A). I was present in December, 1865, when the prisoner was convicted in the name of James Hayes —I produce a certificate. (Read:—Central Criminal Court. James Hayes, convicted of unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin.—Confined Nine Months.) I am sure the prisoner is the man.
MESSRS, CRAUFURD and GRAIN conducted the Prosecution.
The evidence given in the former case was read over to the witnesses, to which they assented. RANDALL— GUILTY .— Confined Eighteen Months.
DAVIS— GUILTY .— Confined Nine Months.
MESSRS. CRAUFURD and GRAIN conducted the Prosecution.
ELIZABETH MART HERBERT . My mother keeps a tobacconist's shop at 28, High Street, Shadwell—on the 3rd of January I served the prisoner with half an ounce of tobacco—he gave me a bad shilling—I said, "You came here on the 29th of December for half an ounce of tobacco, and gave me a bad half-crown"—he said, "You are mistaken; it was not me"—I marked the shilling, and called my mother, who gave the prisoner in custody.
Prisoner. I was not there on Saturday; I was at work. Witness. I am sure of you—I gave you the half-crown back, and you paid me with a florin.
MARTHA APPLEBY . I am the mother of the last witness—she. called me on the 29th December, and handed me a bad half-crown—the prisoner was in the shop—I am sure of him—my daughter bit the half-crown and re turned it to him—he said that he got it at a skittle-ground at Hoxton—on the following Thursday my daughter again called me to look at a shilling—she said, "This is the young man, mother, who brought the half-crown"—I said, "Yes," and called a constable.
GEORGE PETTY (Policeman 96 K). On the 3rd of January I was called, and took the prisoner—this shilling was on the counter—he said, "I tried to pass that shilling, but on Saturday I was not in the neighbourhood; I did not try to pass the half-crown"—I only found a penny on him.
Prisoners Defence. I was not aware it was bad. I took it in change of a florin.
GUILTY .— Confined Six Months.
MESSRS. CRAUFURD and GRAIN conducted the Prosecution.
JOHN PEARCE . I am a cheesemonger, of 291, New North Road, Islington—on the 24th of December, between nine and ten in the evening, the prisoner came in for half a pig's head and two ounces of butter, which came to 1s. 1/4 d.—she gave me a bad crown—I asked her where she got it—she said at 32, Shepperton Cottages, New North Road, close to my house—I asked her to go with me there, and she did so, but first she said that, as the crown was bad, she could only take the butter, which she offered me 2d. for, but I did not take it—we went to 32, Shepperton Cottages, and saw the gentleman who keeps the house, who said that he had no knowledge of her—I took her back to my shop, and detained her with some difficulty till a policeman came—I kept the coin in my hand and gave it to the policeman.
Prisoner. The gentleman did not come down stairs at all; it was his mother. Witness. A lady of about sixty came first, and a gentleman about thirty or forty afterwards, but neither of them knew you—it is a very respectable private house.
WILLIAM GIBSON (301 N). I was called, and charged the prisoner with knowingly uttering a bad crown—she said that she got it at 32, Shepperton Cottages—I went there with her, and saw the landlady, who said she had never been there—the prisoner then said that a gentleman gave it to her that afternoon for going to bed with him—I took her to the station—she was charged at the police-court, remanded till the 2nd of January, and then discharged—she gave her name Catherine Jones—I am sure she is the person—I saw nobody but the lady at the house.
MARY LUNN . I am the wife of William Lunn, chandler, of Lansdown Place, Hackney Road—on the 5th of January, about eleven at night, the prisoner came in for half an ounce of tea, which came to 1 1/2 d. and offered me a crown—I found it was bad, and told her so—she said that it was not bad—I kept it in my hand and went round the counter—she made for the door, and pushed me back, but I got her by the shawl—the potman held her, and I gave her in custody with the crown.
Prisoner. I told you I was an unfortunate girl, and got it from a gentleman. Witness. You did not.
GUILTY .— Confined Six Months.
MESSRS. CRAUFURD and GRAIN conducted the Prosecution.
gin—I served her—she gave me a bad half-sovereign—I objected to it, and she said she had just taken it at King's Cross, and was positive it was good—I locked it up by itself, and gave it to Sergeant Parry next day—the prisoner went away.
JOHN STACET . I keep the Eagle, Farringdon Road—on the 6th of December I served the prisoner with threehalfpennyworth of rum—she paid me with 1 1/2 d—she then asked for another threehalfpennyworth and a biscuit, which came to 2 1/2 d., and offered me a crown—I told her it was bad—she said that she got it that morning from the matron of St. George's-in-the-East Workhouse, Southwark—I said, "There is no such workhouse in Southwark; St. George's-in-the-East is on this side the water"—she said that I was mistaken, as the linen of her child was marked so—I said she had better go and tell the matron and let me know—I gave her the rum and let her go—she never came back—I saw her in Court on the 10th January, when she was tried on another charge—(See page 305)—I recognised her and pointed her out, and after she was acquitted on that charge I gave her in custody—she said that she expected it.
JOHN MACKINTOSH (161 Y). On the 10th January Stacey pointed the prisoner out to me in this building, and I took her in custody—he charged her, and she said, "My God! this is hot; you might have let me have one night out; it is nothing but what I expected; if I had known you were outside, to take me in custody, I should have gone out at another door"—Stacey gave me this crown (produced).
EDWARD HOWARD . I am a bricklayer—on the 6th of December I was in the Eagle tavern, Farringdon Road—Mr. Stacey showed me a crown and directed me to look after the prisoner—I went out and saw her and another female and a man—they spoke together, and I followed them as far as the Royal Oak and then went back—the prisoner had got some distance from the public-house, and I do not know whether she saw me come out—I had a white dog with me.
SARAH ANN FENSOM . I am female searcher at the Southwark Police Station—on the 14th of December the prisoner was brought there on a charge of felony, on which she was afterwards acquitted—I found fourteen shillings in a purse in her pocket, ten of which were bad; 7 3/4 d. in copper was intermixed with it, and in a child's shoe in her pocket were ten more bad shillings done up with white tissue paper between them, looking like a pill-box—I handed them to the constable.
ROBERT BMSCHLAYER (Policeman L 167). I took the prisoner on the charge on which she was acquitted last session—I received a purse, a child's shoe, and some coin from the last witness—ten bad shillings were in the purse, and these ten bad shillings in the toe of the child's shoe.
GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months.
204. HENRY FRANCIS BECKER (35) PLEADED GUILTY to three indictments for feloniously forging and uttering orders for 8l. 12s., 17l. 13s., and 12l. 10s. also to stealing one book, the property of Stafford Henry Northcote and another.— Confined Eighteen Months.
205. HENRY PHILIP DASHWOOD ARTHY* (29) , to feloniously forging and uttering a receipt for the payment of 100l., with intent to defraud; also to unlawfully obtaining by false pretences, from the Right Honourable the Earl of Derby, a warrant for payment of 100l., with intent to defraud; also to feloniously forging and uttering a receipt for the payment of 100l., with intent to defraud.— Ten Years' Penal Servitude. [Pleaded Guilty: see original trial image]
OLD COURT. Tuesday, January 29th, 1867.
Before Mr. Recorder.
The following prisoners PLEADED GUILTY:—
206. DAVID ALLAN (21) , to two indictments for embezzling 1l. 18s. 9d. 1d. 2s. 9d., 34s. 2s. 9s., 9l. 3s. 9s., and 3l. 13s., of Samuel Alexander Bell and another, his masters.— Confined Twelve Months. [Pleaded Guilty: see original trial image]
207. GEORGE GOMERSAL HOLROYD (28) , to two indictments for embezzling 30l., 23l. 6s. 11d., 16l. 9s. 34s., and 19s. 3d. of Samuel Alexander Bell and another, his masters.— Seven Years' Penal Servitude. [Pleaded Guilty: see original trial image]
208. JAMES WILLIAM WOODS (22) , to stealing a 100l. note of Henry Barnett and others, his masters. Recommended to mercy by the prosecutors.— Confined Nine Months. [Pleaded Guilty: see original trial image]
209. ROSE FREWIN (18) , to unlawfully concealing the birth of her child.— Judgment respited. There was a charge of wilfulmurderon the Coroner's inquisition, upon which noevidence was offered. [Pleaded Guilty, Judgement respited: see original trial image]
210. SARAH ANN SPALDING (45) and ADAM SCHOFER (42) , to unlawfully endeavouring to conceal the dead body of a child. SPALDING— Confined Two Months. SCHOFER— Confined Fourteen Days. [Pleaded Guilty: see original trial image]
MR. COLLINS conducted the Prosecution.
JOHN STEPHEN SPINDLER HOPWOOD . I am a solicitor, of 47, Chancery Lane, and am a London Commissioner to administer oaths in Chancery—I was so on the 30th of September, 1865—the signature to this statutory declaration is mine; the signature "Thomas Cannon" was signed in my presence by a person representing himself to be Thomas Cannon—I do not distinctly identify the person.
Prisoner. Q. From what Courts do you hold commissions to take affidavits? A. From all the Courts of law as well as Chancery, this declaration is not entitled to be in any of those Courts—I think it was brought somewhere about two or three in the day, I can't be positive as to the time.
ALBERT HENRY ELWORTHY . I am a solicitor, of 14, Southampton Buildings, and have been so for the last ten or twelve years—in September, 1865, the defendant was introduced to me by a solicitor Mr. Jenkins—he came to my office with the solicitor—I first had an interview with the solicitor—he came for the purpose of borrowing 100l.—he said he wanted 100l. on security of some money which was then in the hands of the Accountant-General of the Court of Chancery, which he was entitled to in right of his wife; that the sum was something 'like 100l., but, it then being the long vacation, he could not get the money, or the
money could not be got out of Court until after the vacation—he said the money was required for business purposes in connection with two newspapers which he had—he named those two newspapers—that I might know exactly how he stood in the world, I took down on a piece of paper the amount of his liabilities from his own mouth, the exact titles of the two papers, the South London News and Croydoni Free Press, and other necessary information for me to judge whether he was involved or not—upon that I agreed to lend him the 100l. at ten per cent. per annum, payable at the end of three months, but I said, inasmuch as the amount in the hands of the Accountant-General could not be ascertained, it was necessary I should take time to inform myself of the nature of the fund; but, the orders of the Court being so lengthy and the expense to obtain them being so great, I required to have extra security, unless that expense was incurred to enable me to get the information, I proposed to advance 50l. at once on that day, it being Saturday, as he wanted to pay his wages for these papers, or else they would die, and I took an equitable memorandum—I asked him about his interest in the two newspapers—he said he possessed the copyrights of them—(he said nothing about the value of them)—upon that I advanced 50l.—I gave him my own cheque for 50l. before I received the money from the client, in order that he might have the money at once—upon that this declaration was drawn by me, it is in my writing; I drew it out in the prisoner's presence, he read it himself, I took the precan tion to hand it to him and his wife, and asked them particularly to read it, and they both read it—this is the defendant's signature.
Prisoner. Q. What have you done with the draft? A. There was no draft, I deny that I swore before the Magistrate that there was. (The depositions of the witness, being read, contained the expression, "I will not swear that the defendant did not strike out of the draft of the declaration the 250l.; "also, The draft of the declaration is not here, but I can produce it") Allow me to explain that; I was confusing at that time the piece of paper upon which I took the different memoranda I speak of, as the draft declaration, but I recollect as well as possible that I wrote that off at the time, such was the urgency of the matter—I did not say before the Magistrate that I could not swear you did not strike out the words "registered and unencumbered;"I said, with respect to the 250l., you might have struck that out, but you never struck out the word "unencumbered"—I did not afterwards, upon the Magistrate saying I could not sustain the prosecution, say, "Then I will swear it"—it first occurred to me to charge you with perjury when I found that the papers had never been Registered, and that you were not the sole and registered proprietor, and that you had encumbered it before to Mr. Atherton—I did not require to go to Somerset House to ascertain it, when you made a solemn declaration—Mr. William Henry Honey is the prosecutor in this case, that is all—if he states he knows nothing about it it is not true—he never said that I had not repaid him any of the money—I don't owe him anything, I have had transactions with him, I have repaid him this money, he has had the balance of 84l. after deducting the commission, I paid him 60l., I think it was out of the 84l. that I received in November; I paid him very soon after it was received—I can't tell the date exactly—I did not go and get the rest of the money, because I can have it any day I like, it is attached—I know Digby and Atherton, formerly printers in Chancery Lane—they have nothing whatever to do with this prosecution, except that Mr. Atherton is a witness—they have been at my office during the time you
brought several actions against them, to ask me for certain information connected with these popers—I did not know that you used to print your papers there; they told me so; they did not tell me that you discharged them for misconduct and making mistakes, and for embezzlement—you brought several actions against them, what for I don't know, none of which did you carry beyond the day of trial—I don't know that they placarded Croydon and the neighbourhood with libellous papers, I never saw one of: them—I began the proceeding for perjury as soon as I found it out—I found it out on inquiring at the Registry Office, Somerset House, and from information that I received; I don't know the date exactly, it is So long ago; it was after January, 1866, I think it was either February or March—you employed my firm to draw a deed; that was after this transaction, I don't know how many days after, I was in the country (referring to a bill produced by the defendant)—it was about five days after my first interview with you—my father was in partnership with me at that time—the deed did not turn out to be useless; it was your fault that it was not acted upon; we put in it everything we were instructed to—you refused to pay my bill, I sued you for it, you defended the action—the Jury did not find that I had been guilty of gross negligence in drawing the deed, and give you a verdict; I swear that—I sued you for 10l. on another bill at the same time, altogether 16l.—I recovered a verdict for something about 10l.—as far as I remember, there were two actions, one on my own account, as I was alone in business then, and one at the suit of my father and I, when we were partners—we have judgments against you which have never been satisfied—I did not subsequently threaten that unless you paid it I would transport you for perjury—I believe my father went to your sister's house to tell her ofthe fact that we were going to prosecute you for gross perjury—I believe the trial at the Sheriff's Court was on the 17th May—that was not the first occasion upon which I spoke about the perjury—it was expressly stipulated at the time you borrowed the 100l. that you were to pay interest at the rate of ten per cent, per annum, and the cost of the preparation of the deed—Mr. Jenkins did not explain to me that the newspaper had been registered in the name of your sister—I never heard of your sister at that time as connected with the matter—this assignment (produced) is in Mr. Jenkins's writing—I never saw it till the other day before the Magistrate, when you produced it, and never heard of it—I did not give Mr. Jenkins 5l. not to give evidence in your favour on this transaction—I lent him 5l., and he gave me an I O U, which he has since paid off—I did not get the 5l. from Digby and Atherton to give to him—I never had a sixpence from them—on the 23rd of January, after you had refused to pay this bill, I went to Mr. J. Bruton, printer, in Crane Court, Fleet Street—I think that was after I had got the 84l.—I served him with a notice which was required under the mortgage deed—I don't know that in consequence of that notice he ceased to print the paper—I did not hear so from Mr. Honey—I did not go to Mr. Bruton's about a fortnight afterwards, and tell him I had made a mistake, and there had been 84l. paid—I did not send my clerk to say so—at the time I lent Mr. Jenkins the 5l. I was not in great difficulties—I have never been applied to a second time for money—my father had his certificate at that time—he was not off the rolls for a considerable time, never—my firm was never in solvent—you did not tell me this was one newspaper with two titles—I distinctly made a point of knowing how many papers there were, and I took it down on the memorandum at the time—you told me it was the South
London News, and Croydon Free Press—you showed me one paper, and that was the South London News—it was one like this (produced)—I was not acting as your solicitor at the time I drew this declaration—I sent you in a bill for the mortgage, for acting for you—you were obliged to give ma a retainer under the mortgage deed—I was not your solicitor—you signed the necessary consent to the order to obtain the money out of Court, and that you had covenanted to do—it was a retainer, authorising me to appear; I have not got it—it was filed in Court. (The declaration was put in and read.)
EDWARD HUGH TILSLEY . I have the custody of the newspaper documents in the Inland Revenue office—all newspapers have to be registered in my office by printers, publishers, and proprietors—there is a paper registered called the South London News and Surrey Weekly Post—it was registered on the 17th April—the printers, publishers, and proprietors make the declaration for registration—this (produced) is a statutory declaration made—I declared the parts named there to it—on the 30th of September 1865, the prisoner was not the registered proprietor of the South London News, nor at any time? after the 17th April, 1865—the Croydon Free Press was never registered—on the 30th of September I received a letter from the defendant.
Prisoner. Q. Will you read that letter? A. Yes:—"Sir—I beg to give you notice that the copyright of this paper is now transferred to me; but as I shall have a partner in the course of a day or two, I shall wait till he comes to town to complete the necessary formalities." That is dated the 30th of September, the same date as the declaration—no time is allowed to complete the registration of a transfer—it is customary to get it as soon as we can get the parties to make the. declaration.
MR. COLLINS. Q. Did the prisoner ever register the paper in his own name? A. No, lie did not.
GEORGE ATHERTON . I reside at 44, Annis Street, South Hackney, and carry on the business of a printer at 22, Curator Street—I know the prisoner—I was not discharged by him for misconduct—in September, 1865, he was indebted to our firm, Digby and Aberton—we pressed him for money, and on the 11th of September, 1865, he signed this document in my presence. (This was a charge, in favour of Digby and Atherton, on the defendant's interest in the South London News and Croydon Free Press, for a debt due to them, 153l.)
Prisoner. Q. Were you printer and publisher of this paper? A. I was the printer of the Croydon Free Press, and my partner was the printer of the South London News—I believed you to be the proprietor, you always paid us—I did not go to Somerset House with your sister to register the paper in her name; I swear that—I knew your sister some time previous to knowing you—I was not at the house for weeks together, I was there occasionally on visits—I knew your sisters as friends—I did not know that your sister Emily was the registered proprietor of the paper until you commenced an action against me in her name—I did not believe that anybody was interested in it but you until that time—(looking at some receipts)—here is a receipt of Mr. Thomas Cannon "For proprietor of South London News"—these receipts were written at your dictation—you wished it done in consequence of some difficulty with the Daily Telegraph people—you always represented yourself to me as the proprietor, and I looked to you for the payment of the account—I did not know it to be my duty as printer and publisher of this paper to attend at Somerset House
every Monday and Wednesday to file a paper—I find now that I am liable to a penalty for not having done so—I made no attempts to get a committal in this case—I swore an information—I was obliged to, as a witness—a warrant was granted for your apprehension in July I believe—I swore I did not know where you lived or was to be found, and I do not know where you are to be found now—my partner told me ho met you one Sunday evening at Southend, and the officer went there to try and apprehend you—you brought an action against our firm lately—you owe us over 200l. now—I have spoken about that a score of times before now—we have acceptances of yours for it—I will swear that I have not been paid—I did not come to you one day and say that I was likely to be prosecuted by my former master, Mr. Smart, and that unless you lent me some money I should probably get transported—I did not embezzle his money—Ireceived 120l. from you—I never received a pound from you which I did not account for—I did not tell Mr. Law, of the firm of Vandecombe and Law, that I had only received 25l. from you—I believe I told you in October or November that application had been made to me by Mr. Law for that money, and I made the same reply which I do now, that I had paid it—I did not ask if you would get some money to pay to Mr. Law, or else my partnership would all be broken up—you did not on that give me a promissory note for 21l. to get discounted—you several times threatened to prosecute me about Smart's affair when we fell out and he pressed you for payment, but you have never done so—we stopped sending the paper one night because you would not pay us—we did not quarrel because I had not paid Smart the money—we did printing for you some two months after that, because you entered into arrangements to pay us more punctually—this letter of October 9th, 1865, is my writing—I gave Mr. Law a proper account of all moneys received from you—I did not commence a series of annoyances against you after this—we tried to get our money—we went to Mr. Rowbottom's to serve you with a writ—we went to get your address—you had several addresses, but you could never be found—we did not try to go on with the action, it was no good, we knew you were insolvent—we left the matter with our solicitor—we printed these placards in our office and posted them extensively all about London, we were advised by Counsel to do it—I know that newspaper property is very risky indeed—I did not go down to your house and make a riot and collect about 200 people about the steps—we had a ca. sa. against your sister for the action she commenced against us, and we went with the sheriff's officer to serve it—in January last you got a summons against me for an assault at Clerkenwell Police-court, it was dismissed—I did not bribe the policeman to say that it took place two hours after he left the beat—I served my time as a printer, I was never anything else—you laid the damages in the action you brought against me at some thousands of pounds—I do not know that these papers were valued at 5000l.—we were in hopes to get a purchaser for them—we should have taken possession of them if we had been able to sell them—I did not tell you that Mr. Digby would send you 20l. if you would sign that paper—you did not tell me it was not worth the paper it was written on as a mortgage; if you had told me so I should not have taken it—I did not tell you if you went on to Brownlow Street I would bring you the money; the paper was signed in Brownlow Street at your request, you wanted money that very night—my partner had a 40l. bill from you—we could not get it cashed—I gave you 5l. after signing the paper, and said that was all Digby could send you.
MR. COLLINS. Q. Did the prisoner ask you all these same questions before the Magistrate? A. Yes, and I answered them in the negative, as I have to-day—I think he and his sister have served us with seven writs, but they have never gone to trial on one; we have judgment against him—the trials were called on, but he was not forthcoming.
The prisoner in a long address entered into the circumstances of his connection with Messrs. Digby and Atherton, who he asserted were the real prosecutors in this case, and denied that he had committed perjury or acted corruptly in what he had done.
CHARLES WILLIAM STANTON . I have been connected with the London and provincial press for the last eighteen years, and am tolerably experienced in newspaper property and business; I am the editor of two papers—I acted for the defendant as agent in the Twickenham and Hounslow districts from about the middle of April, 1865, from the time of the starting of the third number of the paper—I should say during that time he must have spent considerably more than 3000l. upon it—at the end of the year I thought it a property of some value, otherwise I should not have taken the part I did in pushing it—in my district we got very large orders for advertisements, persons sometimes paying six months in advance—its circulation in my district exceeded that of all the other locals together as to time—the bulk of the profit arises from advertisements—I know that there were dreadful mistakes and blunders made in the printing by Digby and Atherton—I know that they published placards and quite ruined the paper in my district; I lost a large sum of money myself, in consequence of those placards, people gradually withdrew their patronage, and the thing was stopped—I have seen Elworthy, Honey, and Digby and Atherton together—I saw an assault committed on the defendant in Westminster Hall—I have heard threats to the effect that they would ruin him.
GUILTY . Recommended to mercy by the Jury, believing it was not done with the intention of defrauding, but to get the money more speedily.— Confined Two Months.
MR. POLAND, for the Prosecution, offered no evidence. NOT GUITY .
MESSRS. F. H. LEWIS and STRAIGHT conducted the Prosecution, and MR. MONTAGU WILLIAMS the Defence. Alfred Coates. I am clerk to Messrs. Westall and Proctor, of 7, Leadenhall Street—I produce a writ of summons, in which they are plaintiffs against Charles Yarwood, on the 23rd of November, 1867, in the Exchequer, for 114l. 17s. 8d., the balance of principal and interest on two bills of exchange for 49l. 6d. and 110l.; a copy of the bills is on the back of the writ.
CHARLES DRAKE . I am a London Commissioner for taking affidavits in the Courts of common law, this affidavit was sworn before me—I administered the oath in the ordinary way—I do not remember the persons who answered to the name in that affidavit; it was the person who signed the affidavit, it was signed in my presence.
JAMES PROCTER . I am a warehouseman, of 26, Gresham Street, in partnership with Thomas Westall; the style of our firm is Thomas Westall, Proctor, and Co.—the prisoner was a customer of ours—I have seen him accept bills—I produce a bill of exchange for 49l. 6d., dated the 5th of February, 1866, and one for 110l., dated the 1st of March, 1866—I know the defendant's handwriting; I have seen him write—the signature, "Charles Yarwood," to this affidavit, is his writing, also the acceptances to the two bills of exchange; they were drawn by myself in the name of the firm, Thomas Westall, Proctor, and Co.—the 49l. bill fell due on the 8th of June; a day or two before it was due the defendant called and said he should be unable to meet the bill, but he would do what he could towards it, and he paid 25l. towards it on the day it became due, with a notice that the bill was lying due at the banker's—he was at that time indebted to us beyond the bills, I can't say the exact amount—the bills had been given for the purpose of meeting an account—the bill for 110l. became due on the 4th July—I believe the defendant came the morning before it was due and told me he was in difficulty, that one of his creditors was pressing him, and he placed himself in our hands as his largest creditor—he paid us 15l. on account, he also paid us another amount for the creditor who was pressing him—I believe the 40l. bill was accepted at his own house—the name of our firm on the warehouse door is the same as the bills are drawn in, "Thomas Westall, Proctor, and Co."
Cross-examined. Q. What is the defendant? A. A tailor, I believe not a lawyer. (An affidavit of the witness was put in, in which he described his firm as "Westall and Proctor.") I suppose that Was a mistake of the attorney's clerk—I believe we were inserted by the prisoner in the list of creditors on these two bills—I have known him about fifteen months. (The defendant's affidavit, being read, stated that he never accepted the bills in question, or authorised any person to do so.)
RICHARD FOOTE . I am a warehouseman, of 30, King Street, Cheapside—I know the defendant and have seen him write—comparing the signature to these two bills of exchange with one I saw him accept, I believe it to be his—he called on me on the 2nd of July, as he said, to ask a favour; it was to renew a bill which was coming due on the 4th of July—I asked him some questions relative to his position, the reason he wanted a renewal—he told me that a creditor was pressing him, that Mr. Westall had taken the matter in hand and was treating him very kindly by negotiating with the said creditor, and upon the faith of what he told me of his position, that he could pay off everybody, if he had time, I renewed the bill, or a portion of it, adding an open account which forms this bill; it was drawn by my partner, and I saw him accept it on our counter.
Cross-examined. Q. Did you know that at the time he swore the affidavit he had his protection from the Bankruptcy Court? A. No, I knew nothing about it—I knew he was afterwards a bankrupt—I think it might have been three weeks after—there was a composition of 2s. in the pound offered, which the creditors repudiated, and I think he then petitioned the Court himself.
—WRIGHT. I produce the bankruptcy proceedings in the case of Yarwood—the date of the petition is the 5th of December, 1856—I find Westall and Proctor entered as secured creditors.
Cross-examined. Q. Does it appear upon the proceedings that he had protection from the Court? A. Yes, on the 5th of September, 1866—it was afterwards renewed.
Witness of the Defence
GEORGE HALL . I am clerk to Mr. Nash, a solicitor—I know the prisoner—I remember his calling at our office to consult Mr. Nash about being served with a copy of a writ at the suit of Westall and Proctor—he saw Mr. Nash in my presence—after speaking to Mr. Nash with reference to his having been served with a copy of a writ, and stating that he was a bankrupt and so forth, it was ultimately by Mr. Nash transferred over to me to draw an affidavit to get leave to appear to the writ—in looking at the writ I found that the endorsement of the bills was Westall, Proctor and Co, and on the face of the writ they sued as plaintiffs solely as Westall and Proctor—that was quite irregular—the prisoner said that Westall and a Proctor, not trading as Westall, Proctor, and Co., which they ought to have done; what does Westall, Proctor, and Co. mean to these bills as drawers? It appears to me, instead of your owing two bills here, you owe four; you owe two bills in favour of Westall and proctor, and two bills in favour of Westall, Proctor, and Co."—he said he only owed two bills, and that was with westall and Proctor—he said,"I am a bankrupt now passing throught the Court"—I said to him, "Who is your inserted these gentleman, Westall and Proctor, in your statement of accounts?"—he said, "Yes, I have"—I said, "Have you inserted Westall, proctor, and Co., also in your accounts?"—I then said, "I had better go to Mr. Munday and ascertain the particulars of this, as he is living in the same street"—I went to Mr. Munday's office and had a conversation with a gentleman there, and after that, and acting upon what the defendant said to me, I advised him to make this affidavit—I said, "It appears that Messrs. Westall and Proctor have proved their debt; how they should have issued this writ I am at a loss to know, and I advise the affidavit to be drawn, inasmuch as Westall, proctor, and co. drawing as the endorsers of these bills must be a forgery, if you only owe westalol and proctor money"—that was what I said to him—I said that, having only inserted westall amd proctor, he ought to have inserted as well estall, proctor, and Co., and having omitted them and sworn to the correctness of his preliminary statement leaving out those two creditors when he ought to have inserted four, as they were two firms he might he indicted—after making that statement to him he swore to the affidavit, acting upon my advice.
Cross-examined by MR. LEWIS. Q. Did you know the prisoner before he came to you on that day? A. No, not myself; I believe my principal; knew him—I think I asked him where Westall and proctor lived, and I think he told me they lived in Gresham street—I saw the body of the writ—I explained to him that it was a writ under the Bills of Exchange Act, and that unless he got leave to appear from the Judge the prosecutors
were entitled to judgment within twelve days—I asked him whether be knew such persons as Westall, Proctor, and Co., and he told me he did not, bat he knew Westall and Proctor—I did not ask him if he had any bill-book; I did not know if he had any—I saw the particulars of the bills on the back of the writ—it did not occur to me to ask him whether he had accepted bills for Westall and Proctor for these amounts—I said, "Do you owe Thomas Westall, Proctor, and Co., these amounts upon two several bills?"—he said, "No; I never dealt with Westall, Proctor, and Co.; all I have dealt with was Westall and Proctor,"which appears on the face of the writ—I say on my oath that I most decidedly believed Thomas Westall, Proctor, and Co. was a different firm to that mentioned in the writ—I certainly believed them to be different persons from information I received from the prisoner—he simply said he never dealt with Westall, Proctor, and Co., only with Westall and Proctor—I certainly believed them to be different persons, otherwise I should not have advised him to swear the affidavit to get leave to appear—I took it there were four bills instead of two—I saw the attorneys' names at the bottom—it did not occur to me to go to them and inquire who their clients were—I went over to Mr. Munday and had some conversation with him, and subsequently to the Bankruptcy Court to look at the proceedings—the application to a Judge is ex parte, the other side is not heard—I advised my client that I believed, from what he told me, that these bills were forgeries, and I told him he could be indicted for omitting Westall, Proctor, and Co. from his schedule—I knew there was a wrong one way or the other—he did not pay me, I don't know whether he paid my principal—I knew of these proceedings before the Alderman—Mr. Nash defended him there—Mr. Nash knew of the advice I had given, inasmuch as he knew I had drawn the affidavit—I was not called before the Alderman—in Mr. Nash's discretion he did not call me—I was there ready to he called.
NOT GUILTY .
MR. BESLEY conducted the Prosecution, and MR. RIBTON the Defence.
SAMUEL ALEXANDER BELL . I am the surviving partner in the firm of Bell and Black, of Bow Lane, City—the prisoner has been in my service about two years—he left on the 13th of October—his duty was to keep the cash and collect the City accounts on Saturdays, and keep the day-book—he was to enter the cash in his cash-book and hand the money or cheques over to me—I never saw this cheque whilst he was in my service—I never got the money, and it is not entered in any of our books—the books are there—I have been through them, and there is no entry—I find entries by the prisoner at the time—I discovered this about ten or twelve days ago—I believe this receipt to be the prisoner's writing (this was signed F. F.)—those are the prisoner's initials—I have the book now before me in which the cash entries are made by the prisoner.
Cross-examined. Q. I think you have been very unfortunate in your clerks? A. Yes; the prisoner is the third I have indicted, and who have robbed us to a very large amount—Holroyd and Allan have pleaded guilty—Holroyd absconded at the time I made the discovery about him, on the 15th of November I think, subsequent to the affair of this cheque—Allan absconded about the same time—the prisoner did not give himself up as soon as the charge was brought against him—I discharged him before that
for receiving money and not entering it in the cash-book—he did not abscond—he did not give himself up—I know nothing about his making any appointment with the policeman—Holroyd was my managing clerk between four and five years—the others acted under him—the other clerks were not in the habit of receiving money and handing it over to Holroyd—I am not aware of it—they ought to have acted under his direction, but I am not aware of their handing over cash, because it was not his business to receive the cash—any cash he received it was his business to hand over to the prisoner to enter, or to enter it himself in the cash-book—Holroyd was in the habit of handing over cash to the prisoner—the prisoner was the cashier—I know Mr. John Black, my late partner's son—owing to his not having business habits, opening letters and so on, which I would not allow him to do, he quitted the office—he was not in the office during this date—I think my partner died on the 2nd of October—Mr. John Black was not in the habit of coming there between May and October—I forbade his coming—Foale collected on Saturdays—it was Holroyd's duty to give him the list of debts that he was to collect—it was not the usual course of business for him to hand the money over to Holroyd on his return—I am not aware of his doing so—I was invariably there on Saturdays—I believe the entries of the sums he received on Saturdays are in his writing, not in Holroyd's—I saw one entry the other day in Holroyd's writing, which I imagined was in Foale's, but that was not his duty—it was contrary to it—I am not aware of it in any other case—I have not examined with a view to find out, because it was not brought under my notice—Foale had sole charge of the cash, and he alone I looked to for it, and if he collected money from any person it would not be to Holroyd or any other person in the office I should apply, but to Foale—I am not aware that there are Other cases like that, there may be—I do not know of any—I was generally there on Saturday when the prisoner returned with the money he had collected—I don't know about always, if there were any sums of importance I always was—I did not come there exactly in the morning—about two o'clock or between one and two—there was a locked letter-box—I opened that—I used to take Holroyd into the inner office to receive money or orders, and he entered the money in the cash-book, and the cheques or cash, or whatever it might be, he handed over to Foale—he was the person that had charge of the cash—after he entered it I got it from him again, for the purpose of banking, and any of those I always signed my name to—if there were cheques to send to the bank sometimes one clerk was sent with them and sometimes another—all cheques were paid into our own bank—I sent Foale to the bank—Holroyd had not charge of the cash at all—I am not aware of his sending Foale to the bank—I can't swear he has not—any money that was to be banked was made out on a slip of paper, and all the remittances I got I marked off—I do not know of Holroyd ever sending Foale with cheques to be cashed—I know now that both of them have done so—I did not then—I was half my time from the office—I generally left between five and six—I left Foale and Holroyd behind; not Allan, he had no business in the office except occasionally—I did not see him for months at a time—the others stayed till seven—it was the prisoner's duty to go on and collect accounts on Saturdays—I kept Holroyd in the office to settle and explain accounts—I was at the office on Saturday, the 6th October—I did not desire him to go and get this particular cheque—that would be Holroyd's duty—I don't know what amounts he had to collect that day—I do not see any entered as collected by him that day—I can't say whether I was there when he returned—I
believe it was the day of Mr. Black's funeral—I believe I sent him to Stratford that day with a cheque for 75l., to pay the men—that was at one o'clock—he might be gone two hours or an hour and a half—Mr. Dean's place is in Leadenhall Street, on his way to Stratford—the workmen at Stratford are paid about two—it may have been about eleven or twelve when I gave him the cheque—my usual time for coming to town on Saturdays was a little before eleven—I can't tell whether he received a list from Holroyd on that day—I can't tell whether he returned before six.
MR. BESLEY. Q. Do you find entries by the prisoner in the cash-book on the 6th October? A. Yes, moneys entered by him, but not accounts—he has entered accounts on the Monday following, but I don't see Mr. Dean's cheque—I never gave a customer's cheque to any one in my employment to go and get cashed—I invariably banked them myself—the one instance in which I mistook Halroyd's entry for the prisoner's was on the 6th of July of a sum of 6s.—no surplus money, which could have been the produce of this cheque, has come into my hands.
COURT. Q. Are there any entries of moneys received on Saturday, the 6th of October, in Holroyd's writing? A. Yes, of accounts paid—here is one of 13l. odd—that is the only one—that was a remittance—there is no London account entered by him.
JOHN HENRY WRIGHT . I am manager to Messrs. Dean, of 147, Leadenhall Street—on the 6th of October last I paid this cheque, and received this receipt in exchange—I presume it was written in our office—I have no recollection of it—I presume I gave the cheque to the person who signed the receipt—it has since come back through our bankers.
Cross-examined. Q. Had the account been sent in before? A. Yes, during the week, and I checked it and paid it on Saturday—I do not know Holroyd.
HENBY BOURNE . I am a licensed vitualler in Cannon Street, City—I have known the prisoner the best part of two years—I received this cheque from him in October, and gave him 21l. 1s. 3d. for it—I endorsed it.
Cross-examined. Q. Had you cashed cheques for other persons in Mr. Bell's employment? A. I had, not their own cheques, cheques of customers apparently—I know Holroyd, I have cashed-cheques for him several times—I cannot swear to the day on which I cashed this cheque, but I am quite certain I received it from the prisoner, it was on a Saturday, certainly after three—I had cashed cheques for him several times before.
MR. BESLEY. Q. What other persons have you cashed cheques for? A. I do not remember cashing any for any one besides Holroyd and the prisoner—I should think I have cashed eight or nine for Holroyd in the course of a year, not quite so many for the prisoner—I think the majority of the cheques I cashed were for Holroyd.
COURT. Q. Did you know in what employment they were? A. I did—I did not let Mr. Bell know that I was In the habit of doing this—I did not think it necessary, they were crossed cheques; it is a thing we very often do—they always told me they were sent by their employers.
MR. BELL (re-examined). This account of Mr. Deans's I believe to be in Holroyd's writing, the receipt is the prisoner's.
The prisoner received a good character. GUILTY . Recommended to mercy on account of his character.— Confined Eighteen Months.
NEW COURT.—Tuesday, January 29th, 1867.
Before Mr. Common Serjeant
JOHN BATTERSBEE . I live in the Minories, and manage the shop of Mr. Foster, Wells Street, Whitechapel—on Tuesday, the 15th January, I hung this coat up behind the door inside about six o'clock, or between then and half-past six—I saw the prisoner come in, take it, and run away—I followed him, he dropped it in the street, ran through Wellclose Square, and I lost him—on the next Friday I saw him in Wells Street near the shop, and pointed him out to Wilson—ho saw me, and immediately walked away, and then ran; I called a policeman, and we went, but could not find him—ho was taken on the following Thursday, but I was not present; that was nine days after the offence—somebody brought the coat back.
Prisoner. Q. Why did you not take me when I was standing against the post by the Sailors' Home? A. I never saw you—I can take my oath you are the person.
JOHN WILSON . I am the prosecutor's foreman—I saw the prisoner enter the shop on the 15th, look round the door, and take Battersbee's coat—there were four gas burners in the shop, and I am positive he is the person—I saw him several times on the day he was taken, but I was in the shop alone and could not leave.
Prisoner's Defence. I am as innocent as a child.
GUILTY .†— Confined Two Months.
MESSRS. BESLEY and STRAIGHT conducted the Prosecution; MR. WILLIAMS appeared for Wilson, and MR. PATER for Edwards.
EDWARD GILLAN . I am barman at the Boar's Head, Fleet Street, next door to the Bolt-in-Tun, which is a receiving house for Messrs. Chaplin and Home—I know Edwards by sight, he came in on Monday, the 14th of January, about a quarter-past nine in the evening, and had a glass of rum with another man, who had a glass of bitter ale—the other man said to Edwards, "Have you seen him?"—Edwards said, "No, I have not"—, the other said, "Go, and I will wait ten minutes"—Edwards drank up his glass of rum, and the other man did not stop five minutes after he had gone, but drank up his ale and went out—I know Mr. Snow's premises, you can see into them from Fleet Street, and can see the till and persons in there—the office closes at eight or nine, I will not be sure—I went to Guildhall Justice-room on the 15th, and picked Edwards out from about a dozen men.
Cross-examined by MR. PATER. Q. Were there other people at the beer-house at the time? A. About four of our regular customers; it is not a very long bar, and there is no sitting-room—I am certain of the time within five or ten minutes, as I had come down at nine, and I went to my supper at half-past, as I always do—business makes no difference in my going to supper, because there is always some one to take my place—the constable had not spoken to me before I fixed the hour—I had not
seen Edwards before that night, and I can bring people to prove that—one of the young mistresses was also in the bar, she is not here—Edwards was not in the bar two minutes—I did not see the man who was with him—the prosecutor had been there that night, he left about nine—I had not spoken to him, and did not serve him—he did not leave before nine, because I was not down till about five minutes to nine—they always awake me at nine.
WILLIAM SNOW . I am manager to Messrs. Chaplin and Horne, at the Bolt-in-Tun—on the 14th of January I was walking to, Ludgate Hill station, and went into the Boar's Head on my way at about a quarter-past nine, which is my time for closing—when I got to the side of the station a woman caught me round the waist, and three men ran against me—they moved off quickly, and I shook the woman off, and then missed my purse, containing two cheques and some gold, from my right-hand trousers pocket—I went to the Union Bank next morning and stopped the cheques—I was afterwards sent for there, and found Wilson in custody, and a cheque was shown to me—on coming out of the bank I saw Edwards at the corner of Bell Yard—I pointed towards him, and he immediately ran away; Simmonds ran after him and brought him back to the bank—this cheque for 9l. 8s. 6d. (produced) was safe in my purse when I left the office, it is payable to me or order—this endorsement on it is not mine, and was not on it when I took it.
FRANCIS WHITTALL . I am a cashier at the Chancery Lane branch of of the Union Bank—on the 15th of January, about half-past nine in the morning, Wilson presented this cheque to me endorsed as it is now—I detained him and sent for Snow, who came.
Cross-examined by MR. WILLIAMS. Q. Did you put Wilson into the manager's parlour? A. Yes.
WILLIAM SIMMONDS (City Policeman 461). On Tuesday morning, the 15th of January, I was on duty in Chancery Lane, and saw Edwards walking up and down near the Union Bank—I saw Mr. Snow leave the bank, Edwards then went and stood at the corner of Bell Yard—he ran away when Mr. Snow came out—I was thirty or forty yards from him—he ran through Bell Yard into Fleet Street, and through Searle's Place into Carey Street, where he was stopped, taken back to the bank, and given into my custody—I took him to the station and told him he was supposed to be concerned with Wilson in passing a cheque at the Union Bank—he said, "I know nothing of it"—I found on him 7s. 11 1/2 d. a tobacco pipe, and a key.
Cross-examined by MR. PATER. Q. Were you in uniform? A. Yes—I did not speak to Snow or he to me—when Edwards was at the corner of Bell Yard Snow was between us—I was going in the same direction as Snow—Edwards could see us both.
JOHN WEBBER (City Policeman 431). I took Wilson at the Bank—I took him to the station, searched him, and found three betting cards, a book, a knife, and two imitation sovereigns (produced)—he gave his address, 19, Webber Row, Union Street, Borough—I went there.
THOMAS NEWRY (Police Sergeant P 12). I have known Edwards a long time, and have seen him frequently during the last three months—I have known Wilson for years, and during the last three month have seen him frequently with Edwards, in Newington Causeway, and at the Sportsman beer shop, Kent Road, once, twice, and sometimes three times a day—I have seen them in conversation in the beer shop.
WILSON— GUILTY . He was further charged with a previous conviction at Newington in 1861, to which he PLEADED GUILTY. **— Seven Years' Penal Servitude. EDWARDS— NOT GUILTY .
MR. DALY conducted the Prosecution.
GEORGE MULLERHOUSER . I am packer to Messrs. Le Maitre and Bergemenn, of Cannon Street, dealers in clocks and bronzes—on the 4th of January, about five o'clock, the prisoner came and purchased a timepiece up stairs—a person named Davis brought it down—he paid for it, asked to have it packed up for him to take away, and told me to put it down on the counter close by the door—there were no other articles on that counter—I pretended to go down stairs, as his movements raised my suspicions—he was pretending to put on his gloves and rolling his eyes about, but did not offer to go out—I watched him along the flooring, and saw him take a musical box which was wrapped in brown paper with a ticket to it, and give it to a woman outside—he then came in for the clock, but I took it away—it was nothing like this box in shape, it was a timepiece under a glass shade—I said, "What have you done with that parcel you have just taken out?"—he said, "I have taken no parcel"—I insisted on having it—he said, "Come outside with me, and you shall have it"—I went out with him, and walked to the bottom of Bread Street—he wanted to leave me, but I would not let him—I took him back, and my employers gave him in custody—I afterwards went to his house with a constable—we waited there till nearly ten o'clock, when the woman came home—she denied having the musical box at first, but we found it on the bed—the prisoner was under the influence of drink, but not so bad as he pretended to be—the woman was locked up, and discharged next morning by the Magistrate—this is the box (produced)—it is worth 7l. 7s.
Prisoner. Q. When you asked my wife if she had the musical box, did not she say that her husband gave her a clock which he had bought? A. She said that her husband gave her the parcel which he had bought, but she did not know whether it was a clock or what it was—I saw the invoice given to you—you paid the money, and dropped a halfpenny.
THOMAS DAVIS . I am warehouseman to the prosecutors—I remember the prisoner purchasing a timepiece on the 4th of January—he did not buy a musical box—I left him in the warehouse, and gave the timepiece to Mullerhouser, who packed it—this musical box is my employer's property, and was in one of the pigeon-holes where the prisoner was.
Prisoner. Q. Were you present when I paid for it? A. Yes—I noticed that you had been drinking.
WILLIAM PEAK (City Policeman 578). The prisoner was given into my custody for stealing a parcel, contents unknown—he said, "It is all a mistake; I bought a timepiece, and have bought a good many here; I hare given it to my wife, and if you will go out with me I will give it to you if I have taken the wrong one"—I went out with him, but we could not find his wife—he asked me to let go of his arm, I would not, and he gave a sudden jerk and tried to get away—I took him back to the warehouse—he then said that he went back the second time for the invoice—I searched him at the station and found the invoice in his pocket—I went to 9, Vere Street, and found that he lived there, but had given a wrong name—I
waited till a quarter to ten, when his wife returned—I followed her up the staircase and asked for the parcel—I found this box there.
Prisoner. Q. Did the prosecutor tell you that all he required was his musical box back again? A. He said, "If you will give me my musical box I do not wish to prosecute."
The prisoner produced a written defence stating that he teas so intoxicated that his wife was obliged to go out to take care of the clock he was about to purchase, and had he been sober this would not have happened. GUILTY . He was further charged with a previous conviction in 1863, in the name of John George , to which he PLEADED GUILTY.**— Confined Eighteen Months.
222. JOSEPH BARRETT SIMMONDS (40) , to embezzling a cheque for 14l. 11s. 9d. and the sums of 23l. 9s. 5d. and 43l. 6s. 10d., of Alfred Hind Hopkins and another. Strongly recommended to mercy by the prosecutor.— Confined Three Months. [Pleaded Guilty: see original trial image]
223. GEORGE HAYES (61) , to embezzling the sums of 16l. 3s. 3d. and 19l. 3s. of Charles Philip Townsend, his master. Recommended to mercy by the prosecutor.— Confined Three Months. [Pleaded Guilty: see original trial image]
224. JOHN ANTHONY** (16) , to burglariously breaking and entering the dwellinghouse of Henry Batten, and stealing therein two watches and other articles and 18l., his property.— Seven Years' Penal Servitude. [Pleaded Guilty: see original trial image]
226. GEORGE KING** (15) , to stealing one handkerchief of George Bracebridge from his person, after a former conviction in August, 1865.— Confined Three Months, and Five Years in a Reformatory. [Pleaded Guilty: see original trial image]
NEW COURT.—Wednesday, January 30th, 1867.
Before Mr. Justice Keating.
MR. SLEIGH, for the Prosecution, stated that a man named Chaney, who was charged with the prisoner, had died since the last Session, and that under these altered circumstances he should offer no evidence against the prisoner.
NOT GUILTY ,
MESSRS. SLEIGH and THOMPSON conducted the Prosecution, and MR. STRAIGHT the Defence.
GUILTY of endeavouring to conceal the birth. She received a good I character.— Confined Six Months.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE, with MESSRS. GIFFARD and SLEIGH, conducted the Prosecution, and the evidence was interpreted to the Prisoner.
JOHN HARBOTTLE . I am a Russian merchant carrying on business at Alderman's Wharf—in the autumn of 1864 the prisoner introduced himself to me to inquire whether some friends of mine who were coming from Siberia had arrived, and in June, 1865, he borrowed 200l. odd of me on a bill of exchange—before that bill came to maturity, and before I knew whether it would be honoured or not, he came to me on the 30th of June, 1865, and said that he had failed, in consequence of difficulties in St. Petersburg, and had got a friend who had lent him some Russian rouble notes, upon the security of which he borrowed 36l. of me, as there would be a loss in exchanging them—he produced them; these are them (produced)—here are seventy-five of them—they are in the identical packets as he delivered them to me—they are for five roubles each; the aggregate value is 40l., but the exchange varies—I gave him this cheque for 36l.(produced); he endorsed it in my presence, and it has been returned to me by my bankers, paid—I never saw the prisoner afterwards till he was in custody last month—I put the notes by in my safe box, where they remained some months, for an opportunity of sending them to my agent at St. Petersburg, as to change them in London there would be a loss—in November, 1865,1 sent them to my agent at St. Petersburg, but took the numbers first; they were returned to me in May, 1866, as forgeries—when I was at the Mansion House the prisoner was asked whether he had any questions to put to me, and he said that he knew the notes were forgeries, and that I knew so also—there is not the slightest truth in that.
Prisoner. I never borrowed the money on the bill of exchange—I never had the money. I had 36l.; not on account of these notes at all, it was a different affair altogether. Witness. It was specially given him on the security of the notes.
Prisoner. Q. Why did you keep these notes in your possession so long? why did not you change them directly and get the money? A. It was a matter of no particular importance; they were put away in a safe, and remained there—I thought in the first instance that you might come back to redeem them, you borrowed the money for a few days and promised to repay it—I sent them to my correspondent to be realised, and if they had been good they would have passed into circulation like notes in this country—I did not say at the Mansion House that I sent them to the Russian Bank, it would be quite out of course to do so—I got them back without a letter; the person who brought them stated that they were false—he was a German from St. Petersburg—I do not know where he is—they were sent back in the identical package in which they were received, with the specification which was sent out with them—the German was directed simply to give me a message, because the possession of forged notes in Russia would be a very serious thing, and my correspondent would not like to commit himself by writing.
Prisoner. If he brought the notes he could substitute these notes for others. Witness. I had not marked them, but I had taken a specification of the numbers, and the identical specification sent by me to St. Petersburg was returned to me in London—I know that the notes are the same, because the numbers correspond—I have no other means of speaking to their identity—I know that the notes I sent were forgeries, because these are the identical notes—I have been to St. Petersburg—you asked me at the Mansion House if I knew a rouble note, and I said that I did, but I did
not say that I knew the difference between a good note and a bad one—I do not know that you were here in November, 1865—a letter may have been sent to the hotel at Charing Cross to know if you had come back, but I did not see you. and did not know you were here—I cannot recollect sending a letter there by a young Spaniard, but cannot undertake to say that I did not—I do not know that you were in London again in December.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Is this (produced) what you call a specification? A. Yes, it is in my writing—the number of each note was taken down on this paper, which was sent with the notes to St. Petersburg, to Herman L. Milroid, a merchant in a very good position there—the whole seventy-five numbers are here—the messenger was a person who came to me with a letter of introduction, and was charged to deliver the notes and state that they were forged—it was only a verbal communication—I then communicated with a Russian gentleman, who examined them, and afterwards with the Consul here—I afterwards heard of the prisoner in France—my clerks might take upon themselves to make inquiries about him without consulting me—I have carried on business in London twenty-five or twenty-eight years.
Prisoner. Q. Did you lend me any money before you had the notes? A. Before you pledged the forged notes I once lent you 40l. without any pledge, and it was repaid—I wanted a pledge for die 36l., because there was then a bill of yours pending for 217l., which was ultimately dishonoured—it may have been through the hands of ten parties, but I was responsible upon it, and I had to relmburse the amount—it had several endorsements—I did not know that it was had, but I had quite enough risk already.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Is there any connection between you and the Russian Government or police, or have you anything to do in any shape or way with the detection of fraud? A. Not in the slightest.
CHARLES ALBERT . I am a professional interpreter—I attended at the Mansion House on the examination of the prisoner, and interpreted the proceedings to him—after Mr. Harbottle had been examined in chief the Lord Mayor asked the prisoner if he had any questions to put—I interpreted that to the prisoner, and he then made a voluntary statement, which I interpreted to the Court—he first asked several questions which I interpreted, such as, "When did you send those notes to St. Petersburg?" and, "Why did not you send them before?" and, "Did not you lend me money without security on one or two different occasions?" and several more—he then said, "I knew the notes were forged, but Mr. Harbottle knew it as well"—I asked him two or three times, "Do I understand you rightly?" he said, "Yes, I knew they were forged, but he knew it as well."
Prisoner. Q. I did not mean that at all, because I pledged no notes at all there; did not you ask Mr. Harbottle whether he sent the notes to the Bank? A. You asked him where he sent the notes to and when, and he said that he sent them to St. Petersburg some months afterwards, and would have sent them before, but he thought the exchange was lower, and that he should have lost money by them—you never raised the point that these were not the notes—you did ask him whether this transaction did not take place before he stated, and he denied it—I think you asked him whether he had not taken notes from you before, but I cannot remember the amounts—I think you asked him whether you had had dealings with him before, you did not ask him whether he had changed forged notes for you.
EUGENE KLEIN . I am a Russian by birth, and am in the bank-note manufactory of St. Petersburg—it is part of my duty to determine the genuineness of notes presented to the Imperial Bank of Russia—I am well acquainted with Russian rouble notes—these seventy-five Russian rouble notes are all forgeries—they purport to be Russian state credit notes of five roubles each—one rouble is equal to about twenty-eight or thirty pence English, according to the exchange—these are the best executed I ever saw—I have seen the prisoner before, and have seen him write; he signed a receipt in my presence in London a year ago—I have also seen several letters written by him.
JOHN HARBOTTLE (re-examined). I have frequently seen the prisoner write—the signature and the conclusion of this letter (produced) are his, but the body is not—I also identify as his the signature and part of the conclusion of this letter to the Minister of Finance.
Prisoner. Yes, those are my signatures.
EUGENE KLEIN (continued). This is a forged rouble note, and this (produced) is an unfinished one—they are both on forged paper—the figure 8 on this one is incorrectly engraved, and it is put out of the line, pushed out of its place—all these seventy-five forged notes are from the same plate.
Prisoner. Q. Do you know that I was the cause of presenting to the Russian Consul in Paris these false notes? A. Yes, in August, 1865, you gave to the Russian Consulate in Paris such information as led to the apprehension of five or six persons who were afterwards convicted of having forged notes in their possession, which were printed from the same plate as these—some notes which were taken in London in 1865 are identical with these, from the same plate—you did send to the Russian government the punches with which the bock of the notes is printed; that was in November or December, 1865—they were not punches used in making notes of this description exactly, they might also be used for forgeries—I first saw this bundle of notes a short time before the case was brought before the Mansion House, when the extradition of the prisoner was asked for, and I was asked to give my opinion about them—I know that you offered the Russian government to find out the forgers—your services were accepted in the autumn of 1865—I do not know that the Russian government sent notes to you, to compare with others to find out the forgers, but when your services were accepted you asked for a sheet of paper on which notes are printed, and one was given to you, which was not the same as the notes were printed on, but it was not materially different—if you did not receive it from the Goverment you received it from their agent; you said that it was necessary for you to have a sample of good paper, that you might show that you knew where a very good paper was made.
COURT. Q. Do I understand that since August, 1865, he has been engaged in the employ of the Russian government or their agents in the detection of these forgeries? A. Not all the time, his services were accepted in November, 1865—they tried him for a month or two, and then he was refused—the sheet of paper with a water mark was given him in November, 1865, but it was not one of those which are used in printing bank notes.
MR. SLEIGH. Q. Just compare the letter of May, 1865, which he wrote to the Emperor, with this translation; it is dated the 23rd of May, 1865; is that the 11th of May according to our dates? A. Yes, the translation is
collated by me and is accurate. (Part of this letter was translated as follows:—"I avoided to meet this gentleman, but he persecuted me a every meeting, asking me only to look at their merchandise. I refused for a long time, but after I considered that, if I had already the misfortune to fall upon such an affair, there will not be any harm to look at it, and that I ought not to allow the opportunity to pass of gaining the information useful to my country, which I love sincerely. I allowed him to send me a sample by post. It was such a good one that I thought he was making a fool of me, and that it was a real note; I told him so and gave him back the sample. He said, 'I will send a worse one, so that you may be convinced that it comes from our factory;' and he sent me one finished here faulty. The figure 8 in the number was out of its place, and another unfinished, or a skeleton, as he called it (both annexed to this letter). After he came himself to me, and asked me if I did not wish to buy them, but not for less than 1000l. at once, at 4% per rouble. I answered him that I had not ready money, and that I am not yet decided to connect myself in this affair, but will think of it, and that I burnt the samples, fearing to keep them.")
Prisoner. You need not read that letter to me, I know all about it.
Part of a letter from the prisoner to the Russian Minister of Finance was here ready in which he stated that he had forwarded the forged notes fabriccated in London in his letter to the Emperor, and requested the Minister to send over a fresh official, for whom he had prepared a plan of action to detect the maker of the notes, but that they could not be discovered with shillings, as the fabricators did not spare pounds, and the official must therefore be provided with not less than 2000l. Dated the 20th of May, 1865. JACOB SCHNEUHR.
The Prisoner's Statement before the Magistrate:—"I wish to say something now. Being in this position now as a criminal, I wish the people around me to listen and hear something. I went to Mr. Harbottle, because I was aware that thirty or thirty-five years since he ran away from St. Petersburg for a criminal matter. He was in the service of Count Levashoff, as the manager of his estate. That was the reason I went to him, as I told him at once I knew him; I mean of course, not that I knew him, but that my father-in-law was serving under the same estate as him. Another person made my acquaintance, and then also of Mr. Harbottle, and that person is the first director for the forged notes. I was so well acquainted with that person that I was able to send to the government there a small piece of the type of the notes. As a proof of what I say being true, I refer to Mr. Klein. This was the reason why I wrote to the Emperor and the Minister about it, and in order to get into the confidence of this man, who had entrusted me with the bits of type. You will understand it was necessary that I should get into his good graces. It was arranged that I and Mr. Harbottle should become agents of this man. I did not buy or sell any forged notes, but Mr. Harbottle bought on several occasions. Mr. Harbottle had no business to speak of it through any person but me. I brought to Mr. Harbottle's notice the seventy-five rouble notes, but on another occasion I brought him another seventy-five before this transaction. This transaction took place before the time Mr. Harbottle states. On another occasion, prior to these two transactions, the gentleman gave Mr. Harbottle 200 of these notes. I did all this only because I had already written about it and thought it would be easy for me to discover more. I did not receive any money from the Minister of Finance, but afterwards I was offered money by him, which I declined to
take, as I wanted to serve the state only as a patriot. At a later period I received from the Minister authority that I might go in partnership with those people and make the notes with them. There are the papers about it in the hands of the officer. It will look extraordinary why Mr. Harbottle should all at once give information about it, but the cause of this will be shown later. I can prove that the reason they have not found out the manufacturers is that the persons are beyond suspicion."
The prisoner addressed the Jury through the interpreter, stating that he was a Russian, and Mr. Harbottle an American; that he had previously received money from Mr. Harbottle without security, and that having put his name upon a cheque was no proof that he had given any notes as security, which he denied doing, and contended that his letters to the Emperor and to the Finance Minister spoke for him and not against him; that on arriving in London he introduced himself to Mr. Harbottle, who he knew had been guilty of criminal acts in Russia for some years as adminstrator to an estate there and running away with the money, the prisoner's father living on the same estate at the time; that ten years afterwards Mr. Harbottle was manager of the estates of Count Pascoff, brother-in-law of Count Levashoff, the prisoner residing there at the time, but, coming afterwards to London, found that Mr. Harbottle was doing business there, went to see him, after which he met Radetzky, who proposed that he and Mr. Harbottle should become agents for passing forged notes, Mr. Harbottle staying in London and furnishing the prisoner, who was to go to Russia, with notes, and was to send back wheat or corn; that he did not like to lose their acquaintance and confidence, seeing that he could thus serve Russia as well as the poor peasants among whom the notes were circulated; that Radetzky proposed to Mr. Harbottle to send a certain sum to Holland, but the latter refused to have anything to do with any agents fat Radetzky himself; that Radetzky then proposed to send a commissioner with a parcel to meet the prisoner at a certain post-office, where there was a thoroughfare, another commissioner coming in the other way, who was to identify him, to which the prisoner consented, but declined being a party to utter the notes; that three transactions took place between them, in one of which, at the end of 1865, he received 200 notes, and in another the seventy-five notes in question, but, not having mixed himself up in the sale of the notes, he could not say how many Radetzky sold to Mr. Harbottle or what Mr. Harbottle paid him; that he handed over the packets of 200 and the 75 notes to the commissioner, who handed them to Mr. Harbottle, and that when he asked Mr. Harbottle what he had done with them he said, "That is my business;" that Radetzky was manager of the company who issued the notes, one of whom, named Lepault, was tried for that offence in Paris, but acquitted, as it was proved that he only acted for political purposes; that those who received the notes handed them over to their agents, who never knew the makers; that in writing for notes to the manufacturer, Radetzky would send an address, not his own, and if there was one line on it the person would know to whom to deliver it, but if two lines he was to give it to a higher authority; that a man named Jankouski took him to a house and introduced him to some of the agents, one of whom was Holchester (Tried December 20th, 1865); that on the 13th of January, when he was going to Paris, Mr. Harbottle said that he would give him some commissions, and gave him a cheque for 36l., for which he took three receipts, one for 20l. and two for 8l. each, in different names, telling him he was to pay the money to whoever brought him those receipts in Paris: that the receipt for 20l. was brought by a man named Lievitz, whom he paid and took the receipt, but that the two for 8l. did not come at all; that before going
to Paris Mr. Harbottle told him to come to him for some forged notes to hand to somebody there, which he promised to do but did not, not liking such a commission, which displeased Mr. Harbottle, as he afterwards told him; that he gave information in Paris to Prince Dolgorouki, now General Governor of Moscow, who referred him to the Russian Ambassador at Brussels, then in Paris, who requested him to obtain some of the forged notes and send them to him in Brussels, which he did, having obtained them by letter from Radetzsky under the pretence that he had a buyer for them, and a few days afterwards Radetzky sent over a person to Paris with more notes, demanding to tee the buyer, upon which he applied to the Consul, and the persons were captured with the notes, which Mr. Klein could confirm; that he then wrote to the Russian Minister of Finance, and afterwards went and saw him at Berlin, who begged him to assist in discovering the manufactory, and with one of whose agents, M. Kamensky, he laid his plans, and who offered him money, which he declined, not having then been at any expense; that he wrote to the Minister for a power of attorney for his protection, and received in reply a letter from the Department of the Minister of Finance, which he produced, dated November 14, 1865, and which stated—"I hereby authorise you to execute those plans, to enter into partnership in the manufacture of these notes, and, if necessary, you may as well assist in making the notes, and you are also to bring into this manufacture the controlling machine of which you spoke; in one word, you can do everything which you will deem necessary." He further stated that the Minister sent a letter in English to the police, requesting them not to interfere with him; that he then obtained the confidence of the forgers, and was thus able to obtain some of their steel types, which he sent to the Minister and to M. Kamensky which Mr. Klein was aware of; that Mr. Harbottle's statement was not true, and that it was not likely he should put off forged notes with a man who knew him so well, and who was acquainted with Russian notes, and never did so; that the trial of Holchester would have induced Mr. Harbottlt to examine the notes, if he really had them, before sending them to Russia; that he saw Mr. Harbottle in November, who told him that he had been instrumental in getting the forgers in Paris into custody, and, as Mr. Harbottle was mixed up in the matter rather heavily, he concocted this plan with Radetzky to crush the prisoner.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE to MR. HARBOTTLE. Q. Did you reside in St. Petersburg thirty-five or thirty-six years ago, and were you what is called attendant to a family named Levashoff, of high rank there, and holding an official position? A. I was the auditor of their estates—I left St. Petersburg with their sanction thirty-five odd years ago—no charge was made against me of any crime whatever by them, or by anybody connected with them—it requires two weeks' public notice in order to procure a passport, which is published in the newspapers and the Gazette, and, independently of that, two certificates are required from the police—a portion of these suggestions having been made against me before, I have searched and found the passport with which I came over—this is it (produced)—the first part of it is in Russian, and there is a translation into German—I came straight to England, and for twenty-seven years have been carrying on business at the same place that I do now, but being occasionally absent in the United States, where I have been fifteen times on matters of business connected with Russian and Austrian houses—I am an Englishman—for the last thirty years I have been in frequent and friendly communication with my former employers, the Levashoffs, and have acted us their banker for the last fifteen years—the last transaction was last year, when I sent them
1000l. to Paris, by their desire, in consequence of this telegram (produced)—not the slightest charge or suggestion has been made against my character in this country—I never received any notes from the prisoner but these seventy-five rouble notes—I know no person named Radetzky, and never heard his name mentioned—I never had any communication whatever with any person who I believe to bear that name—I did not tell the prisoner that I would not deal with any person except Radetzsky, and never received any rouble notes, except these seventy-five, from a commissioner, or anybody else—the prisoner never asked me what had become of some rouble notes, nor did I tell him it was my business and not his; there never was any question of rouble notes with him—I was not aware of his having any transactions with agents of the Russian government, and never heard that he had undertaken to discover any person—I never told him I intended to go to Paris, and never heard of the three receipts—the only receipt I got was the endorsement on the cheque—he never told me he would give me forged notes to take to Paris—I never heard of such a proposition—I never saw him in November—I never saw him after the transaction in June till he was brought up at the Mansion House—the whole of these letters (produced) are from my employer's family.
Prisoner. The crime which Mr. Harbottle has committed is against peasants.
COURT. Q. Is there any truth that you were within the purlieus of the criminal law in Russia? A. Never.
Prisoner. You never were, because you ran away.
GUILTY .— Seven Years' Penal Servitude.
THIRD COURT.—Wednesday, January 30th, 1867.
Before Mr. Recorder.
MESSRS. BESLEY and COLLINS conducted the Prosecution, and MR. DALY the Defence.
GEORGE ALFRED MORRELL . In November last I was clerk to Messrs. Taylor and Stokes, of Friday Street, Cheapside, silk and velvet manufacturers—I had been there three years—my age is eighteen—I know the prisoner—I first met him four or five weeks before November, towards the end of the summer, at the Swan, George Street, kept by a man named Newman—I had some patterns of silk with me—he asked me to bring him two or three dozen the next night—I mean by a dozen a dozen squares: all one piece, simply creased in squares, nearly twelve yards—he named 20s. to 25s. a dozen—I brought some the next night to the Swan, but could not see him—afterwards a man named Lewis brought him to me at the Swan—I brought three pieces; thirty-six yards, value about 12l.—I sold them to the prisoner for 2l. 1s.—he took no receipt—I stole them from Messrs. Taylor and Stokes's warehouse—about three days after that be asked me to bring him two dozen more—he paid me 18s. a down for
them; 36s.—the value was about 5l. a dozen; 10l.—he did not ask for nor did I give a receipt—I got them from Taylor and Stokes's warehouse in the same way—the next time I saw the prisoner at the Swan he asked me if I would be at George Yard, Snow Hill, a betting place, next day—I met him there about one o'clock—he there asked me to bring him ten yards of moire antique—I brought them the next day, and saw him at the Swanhe gave me 3l., or 3l. 10s., I am not certain which, for the ten yards—the value was 18s. a yard—no receipt was asked for or given—I stole them from a cupboard in Taylor and Stokes's warehouse—I saw him several times after that at the Swan, and brought him moire antique dresses—he paid me 16s. or 17s. a dozen on the average—the value was 4l. or 4l. 10s. a dozen—the value of a moire antique dress is about 8l.—he generally gave me 2l. to 3l. per dress—I cannot tell how many more transactions I had with him, say about half a dozen or more—one time he asked me to go outside, and said, "I don't want all these people to know my business; I'll meet you at the corner"—I said, "Very well," and made an appointment to meet him at seven o'clock the next evening outside the Portman Stores—he did not come—I met him a week afterwards, and he asked me to bring him three more, and meet him in the street—he did not come—I met him again at the Swan—these dresses (produced) are of the same description—I generally met him about seven in the evening—we spent some of the money for drink every night, and tossed for some wine at the Swan.
Cross-examined. Q. I believe before any transactions with the prisoner you had seen him at these public-houses? A. Yes—I never knew he got his living by purchasing goods at pawnbrokers' sales—I have heard it stated—I dare say I had somewhat about six or eight transactions with him—I did not say anything to him about selling on commission—I did not represent myself to him as a commission agent—I had not been robbing my employers before I met the prisoner—I met him, and he asked me to drink a glass of ale with him—I had some patterns of silk with me, used to make neckties of—after some little conversation he said he would not mind giving 20s. or 25s. a dozen for them—I said I would bring him some the next night—I did not say I was going to steal it—my father lives close by the Swan—I am not in the habit of selling goods on commission—I sold shawls, and got 6d. profit, or what I liked to charge on—I did not sell them on commission—I did not sell them for my employers, I sold them for Mr. Cushway—he is in their employment—I was not in the Swan for Mr. Cushway, or met parties there—I sold two shawls about a week before November—I took them to my customers' houses—I only took them to people I knew—my father is a jeweller—I used not to sell any goods for him—I used to frequent the Portland Stores—I might have tried to sell a shawl there to a woman named Reeves—I dare say I said to her that I sold shawls on commission—I am almost certain I never said to the prisoner that I sold these silks on commission—I believe I never said in front of the bar of the Swan that I sold shawls and silks on commission—I might have said I sold goods on commission, but I am almost certain I never said silks—I never said that the satin was part of an old stock made for the Duke of Wellington's funeral—nothing of that sort—I have no doubt I said part of an old stock; some of them were very old—that was after the sale was over—I never said that my governors had told me to sell it for the best price I could get—I might have said we had a large quantity on hand—he might have said, but I don't recollect, that
nobody wore scarves, and that the satin, being creased, was of no use for dresses—I did say, "Our dressers, Messrs. Richard, for a few shillings will take the creases out"—I have no doubt I have asked him 2l. for two pieces of satin—he always offered me less, so I dare say he offered me 35s.,—I cannot remember that I then said that I could not take that, as I had to give that to the governors—I might have spoken of the governors to him once or twice—I mean employers by governors—I never took out a little book to see if I could take the price he offered—I carried a pocket-book for some time—I never referred to that pocket-book while talking to him—I carried stamps in it—there was no writing in it—I might have taken it out, but with no idea of looking at the prices—I do not remember taking out my pocket-book and saying, "I can't take anything of that sort"—I did not say, "If I took that I should only have a shilling or two for myself"—I brought him a piece of moire and asked him 4l., and he offered me 3l. 10s., but I cannot recollect then saying that I had to give the governors 3l. 10s.—on the first occasion when I wanted patterns I asked Mr. Taylor if I could have them—he said I could if they were of no use—I afterwards took them without asking—I don't know whether you call that stealing—that was all before I met the prisoner—I never told him that I stole these things.
MR. BESLEY. Q. Will you tell me what the patterns were? A. Thirtyfour inches wide, the width of the stuff—they were kept in a box—they were large enough to make a narrow scarf—I had a scarf round my neck, and the prisoner might have seen it several times before he spoke to me—I sold him black satin first—I had not sold black satin to any one before I sold it to him—I did not make the observation about an old stock in respect to the moire antique—the moire antique was not old stock—I sold two or three shawls altogether—the price was from 5s. 3d. to 16s.—they were me property of Mr. Cushway, in the same employment as myself—I sold some of the patterns, and got 2d. and 3d. sometimes for them; sometimes I gave them away—when selling the shawls for Cushway I got a price from him, and anything I got above that I was to keep—I gained altogether three or four shillings by selling them—I don't suppose I took much above 4l. altogether to Mr. Cushway.
JURY. Q. On what basis do you state the value of the different articles you stole? A. The price mentioned in the number book as the value of the silk—I reckoned it at the cost price to Taylor and Stokes, or thereabouts.
COURT. Q. Did you buy the shawls you say you bought of Cushway for the selling price? A. Yes—on the first occasion no one was present with the prisoner at the Swan, afterwards he was accompanied by a man named Lewis, and some others whose names I do not know—Newman, the person who kept the Swan, was in the bar—we were in the parlour—we always had something to drink afterwards—he always expected us to.
SOPHIA JONES CLEVE . I am the servant of Mrs. Williams, 58, London Street, Fitzroy Square—I have been there seven years—I have known the prisoner fourteen months—he came occasionally when he had got anything to pledge, and asked me to pledge them for him, jewellery—he brought some dresses besides—I pledged three, two satins and one moiré—he asked my mistress to allow me to go and pledge them for him—I did not pledge the satins at the same time as the moire—pledged the moiré at Dobree's—I got three guineas for it—I pledged one of the satins at
Harding's, Holborn, and the other at Crouch's, University Street—I got 25s. from Harding's, and the same at Crouch's—before going to pawn the satins, the prisoner said I was to get him 23s., and all I got over was my own—I threw the tickets for the two satins away, not having any use for them—I gave the ticket for the moire to the prisoner—I do not know whether I put it into his hand or laid it on the table with the money—he told my mistress they were a bankrupt stock—I last saw the prisoner there last week—he was in the habit of coming there up to that time.
Cross-examined. Q. What is his business? A. A dealer in jewellery—he has told me he attends Debenham's pawnbrokers' sales, and I have seen catalogues come from there—I know that his business is to purchase things and sell them as well as he can—I pledged some of the things in my mistress's name—he did not tell me to keep it secret.
MR. BESLEY. Q. Do you know anything about his occupation except what he has told you himself? A. No—I did not think it mattered which name I gave to the pawnbrokers.
COURT. Q. Did your mistress give you leave to go? A. Yes. George Moxon. I am assistant to George Dobree, pawnbroker, 73, Charlotte Street, Fitzroy Square—I produce a moire antique dress and a duplicate, pledged on the 29th of October for three guineas by Cleve, in the name of Williams .
Cross-examined. Q. Do you know the prisoner? A. Yes—he purchases at pawnbrokers' sales, and makes what money he can on the things by pledging—goods similar to these often go very cheap at pawnbrokers' sales—a pawnbroker looks to get as much as he can—very often some things are sold at a sale for more than they cost.
MR. BESLEY. Q. You say you know the prisoner has been in the habit of pawning for some considerable time? A. I know he does pawn—we do not like doing business with him—I have known him five or six years.
COURT. Q. How lately have you done any business with him? A. As far as I know, I never took anything of him—he has brought us goods to show us, which I have not taken—if he pledges he always wants a profit, so I think it best not to have any dealings—I think the person who brought the moire wanted more than I was willing to advance—I fancy she asked 3l. 10s.—I offered 3l. and lent three guineas—It did not look so well by candlelight as it does by daylight.
JOHN FOY . I am assistant to Mr. Crouch, Grafton Street, Fitzroy Square—on the 25th of October I took a piece of satin from a female named Mary Williams for 25s.—it was redeemed on the 22nd of October, I do not know by whom—the ticket was thrown away, and I supposed some one picked it up and took it out—I only know by seeing the ticket what sum was given—I do not remember the actual transaction.
CHARTS BROOK . I am assistant to William James Harding, pawnbroker, 207, Holborn—on the 22nd of October Cleve pledged a piece of satin for 1l. 5s.—I think no more was asked—it was redeemed on the 22nd of October.
JURY. Q. Would you have advanced more if it had been asked? A. I might have advanced what I imagine it would fetch, from 28s. to 30s.
WILLIAM DODD . I am a farrier, of Craven Yard, Drury Lane—about the latter end of October I was in the Royal Standard public-house, at the corner of Russell Court; I saw the prisoner there—he offered to sell me a bit of silk—I did not look at it at the time; it was wrapped up in a piece
of paper—I gave 2l. for it—I think he asked 2l.10s. for it; I won't be sure—I had given it to my daughter, but I was called upon to give it up, and I gave it up to Carter, the policeman.
Cross-examined. Q. I believe no imputation has been made upon you in this matter? A. I believe not—I called in for a glass of ale and saw three or four customers there, who introduced me, and, knowing the prisoner was in the habit of going to Debenham's sales, I bought it innocently—another man was with him whom I have seen at Debenham's sales—it might have been 35s. I gave—I had no bill—I did not give a receipt, he did not ask for one.
CHARLES TEMPLE . I keep the Craven Head, Drury Lane—I have seen the prisoner there more than three or four times—he offered me a moire antique for sale—he asked me if I wanted it, if I would have it for my wife—I do not know whether he said what the price was—I bought a black satin dress of him—I cannot be sure whether I gave 2l. 10s. or 2l. 15s. for it—I gave it up to the policeman Carter.
Cross-examined. Q. Did you know that he was in the habit of attending Debenham's sales? A. Yes, I have met him there—I have seen him offer other things for sale.
MR. COLLINS. Q. Did you see him attending Debenham's sales in April, 1865, or for four months after that? A. No, not to my knowledge.
ISAAC CUSHWAY . I am warehouseman to Messrs. Taylor and Stokes, of Friday Street—they are large manufacturers of moire antiques, satins, and silks—I examined the stock when the robbery was found out—between the 1st of January and the 31st of December, 1866, when I took the stock, there was a deficiency of about 500l. worth—I missed forty-one moire antique dresses, value 350l.; also forty-four dozen and a half of satin handkerchiefs, value 149l., trade prices—this moire antique was manufactured by Taylor and Stokes—it is worth about nine guineas, trade price—a West End house, I dare say, would charge twelve guineas for it—there were dresses missing from my employer's stock corresponding to this.
ISAAC CUSHWAT (continued). This piece, received from Temple, was manufactured by Taylor and Stokes—I know it by a mark—I have got the fellow piece in my pocket, marked the same—the mark would have been 3098, but the dress has taken the first number away, and therefore it is 098—I produce this piece from Messrs. Taylor's stock—I have examined the piece from Messrs. Taylor's stock, and it is the fellow piece to this produced to-day—the trade price would be 120s.—I cannot give the retail price, because it is only used for old gentlemen—it is rich enough for dresses, but not made for that—the trade price of this piece, received from Dodd, is 4l. 5s. or 4l. 10s.—it is my employer's manufacture—the number is 707—it is a number put on the dresses to let us know our goods from other people's—it is a number missing from the stock, and so is the other.
Cross-examined. Q. Can you form any notion about how long ago the robbery commenced? A. I have no idea—Morrell asked me for some shawls from my shop—I keep a draper's shop—I thought he might want hem for his own family—I don't know that my employers ever gave him
damaged silk to sell—I should think they did not—damaged pieces of silk have been given to me to sell—I dare say I have sold 200l. or 300l. worth—Mr. Taylor does not deal in shawls; he never had any—I swear that I did not give Morrell shawls to sell on commission—I do not know that I said, "On commission," before the Magistrate, my recollection is that I did not—I said, "On sale or return"—if I had said, "On commission," when my deposition was read over to me I should have contradicted it there and then—Morrell was in the prosecutor's employ three years, as near as possible—I cannot tell during what period these were taken away.
MR. COLLINS. Q. Can you say they have been taken since the 31st of December, 1865? A. Yes; Messrs. Taylor have a large stock—this piece of moire antique is not damaged—the goods missing are not damaged goods.
COURT. Q. Who had charge of the property? A. I was ware-houseman, and had charge from nine o'clock—a housekeeper sleeps on the premises—most of them were taken before I was there—Morrell's proper time to come was nine o'clock.
MARIA WOOLNOW . I am housekeeper to Messrs. Taylor and Stokes, and live on the premises—during my management Morrell came eight or nine times to the warehouse before nine; sometimes at half-past eight, sometimes at twenty minutes to nine, before Mr. Cushway came—he sometimes stayed in, and sometimes went out before nine, making excuses for doing so—that was before any of the rest of the establishment came.
COURT. Q. Did you think of mentioning it? A. It was once mentioned to Mr. Cushway, and Morrell said he had been to see a friend off by railway, and that was why he came early—it was not mentioned to I Mr. Cushway that he came several times before nine.
ROBERT CARTER (Policeman 117 E). On the 6th of December I went to No. 3, Mather's Court, Wapping, and found the prisoner there—I told him I was a police constable, and was going to charge him with receiving silk at different times from a young man named Morrell—he said, "All right"—I said, "Do you quite know, Sylvester, what you are charged I with?"—he said, "No, I don't know what you mean 'at different times; I have only bought two moire antiques, and gave 3l. for one"—I asked him if he had the receipt for that, and he said, "No"—I then took him to I the station.
NOT GUILTY .
Confined Eight Months.
MR. BESLEY conducted the Prosecution, and MR. METCALFE the Defence.
THOMAS GREENAWAY RYDER . I am a clerk in the Vicar-General's Office, Doctors' Commons—Dr. Robinson is a surrogate there—I produce one of the forms—we prepare them ourselves in the office—it was afterwards taken before Dr. Robinson and there sworn, and after the affidavit the licence issued.
Cross-examined. Q. This is a form prepared from the instructions of a
party applying for a marriage licence? A. Some instructions were given to us, and we filled in this—with the exception of the signature of the party and the signature of Dr. Robinson, it is filled up by us—there are three clerks in the Vicar-General's Office, and it might be filled up by one or other—it is always filled up and read over to the parties before the signature is attached—this is in the writing of the chief clerk of the Vicar-General's Office.
MR. BESLEY. Q. Is the affidavit signed before it leaves your office? A. Always—the oath is administered in Dr. Robinson's chambers—the parties are accompanied by one of the clerks in the Vicar-General's Office, who takes back the affidavit to the Vicar-General's Office, and then the licence is granted—this is a licence—it is my own writing—there is no other document than the affidavit upon which the licence is granted.
COURT. Q. You say you prepared this from the instructions of the person who applied; do you know who applied? A. No.
WILLIAM ROBINSON , D.D. On the 3rd of November last this document was sworn before me—the course is that the document is put into my hands, signed by the party making the affidavit—I say to him, "That is your handwriting, and you believe the contents to be true, so help you God?"—a clerk from the Vicar-General's Office is with him at the time—that is the invariable practice.
Cross-examined. Q. You know nothing about this case individually? A. Nothing.
THE REV. HENRY SYDENHAM . I am incumbent of the parish church of St. George's-in-the-East—I produce a licence, upon the authority of which I performed a marriage between Thomas John Barnes and Emily Bow—the prisoner is the person—questions are always asked after the marriage as to the age of the persons married—I asked him questions, and he said his wife was of full age—he gave his address, 69, Johnson Street—this is an entry made at the time (produced).
Cross-examined. Q. Did you copy most of those things from the license, to that book, or do you ask the questions? A. Yes—it is in my own writing—I am not prosecuting this case.
COURT. Q. Who gave you the licence? A. It was brought to me by my verger on the day before.
THE COURT considered that further evidence would be required to show that the same person wuo signed the affidavit swore to it. MR. BESLET stated he could not prove this, and therefore withdrew from the prosecution.
NOT GUILTY .
FOURTH COURT.—Wednesday, January 30th, 1867.
Before Mr. Common Serjeant.
234. WILLIAM MOULTON (36) and ANN MAHOMET (35) , Robbery with violence on Levy de Boer, and stealing nineteen shillings, a pair of boots, and other articles, his property. Second Count, feloniously receiving the same.
MR. COOPER conducted the Prosecution.
on the 14th of January, about four o'clock in the afternoon, I was passing Rich Street, not far from my house—I met the prisoner, who asked me if I had anything for him to do, and I said, "No"—he said, "Will you treat me?"—I said, "No," and he then gave me a dig in the nose with his fist, and kicked me in the privates—I fell down, and became insensate—when I came to myself I was lying a little further off from where I fell—I lost nineteen shillings from my watch pocket, a pair of boots, a coat, a necktie, a pair of cuffs, and a cap—I have seen them since—I had seen the prisoner often passing by there before—I am quite sure he is the man—I had a good view of him—I could see his face—I afterwards pointed him out to the constable—I have been under the hands of a surgeon since.
Prisoner Moulton. Q. Did anybody assault you at eleven o'clock at night? A. No—I was never at your house at any time—I never borrowed sixpence of you—it is not true that I was in your house all day, sleeping with a woman—I have only seen the female prisoner pass up and down the road.
MICHAEL HOLTON (Policeman 26 K). From information I received, I went to the prosecutor's house on the morning of the 15th of January, about twenty minutes past one—I found him apparently in great pain—I then went to a house in a court in Rich Street, where I found Mahomet—the prosecutor followed me there—Moulton came in about half-past one in the morning, and the prosecutor pointed to him and said, "That is the man who knocked me down, kicked me, and hit me in the nose"—the prisoner said, "He came to the house about half-past seven o'clock in the morning; he went to bed with a girl, and slept with her all day; when he got up he struck me, I struck him, and took my own part"—the prosecutor said, "I have never been in the house; I never struck the man; it is all false what he says"—I then searched the house, and found a pair of boots and a cap in a cupboard upstairs, which were identified by the prosecutor—Moulton said, "The old woman has pledged the coat; she got nineteen shillings on it"—I asked him where the ticket was—he said, "I believe she has got it in her pocket"—he then said, "I will search your pocket, and see whether you have got the ticket"—Mahomet said, "Take care; do not put it in my pocket, and say I have done it"—he then searched her pocket—I went into another room, Moulton came after me, and said, "What is this lying on the table?"—I said it looked like a ticket, and took it off the table—he said it was a ticket—it was not on the table when I first went in—I found a coat at the pawnbroker's.
Prisoner Moulton. Q. Did you ask me if I could unlock the drawers? A. Yes, and you did so—you took a bundle of keys out of her pocket—I told the prosecutor where I was going on the way to the prisoner's.
Prisoner Mahomet. Q. Were not my keys taken out of my pocket at the station? A. Yes, but after Moulton took them out he put them in again—you were drunk.
COURT. Q. Did you go there in consequence of an address which the prosecutor gave you, or from a description of the persons? A. From a description of the persons—he did not name any house.
CHARLES SHEEN . I am assistant to William Nathan, a pawnbroker, of Limehouse—this great coat (produced) was pawned on the 14th of January for nineteen shillings by Mahomet, in the name of Clark , between five and six in the evening.
MATTHEW BROWNFIELD , M.R.C.S. I am a divisional surgeon, and practise at 171, East India Road—on the 15th of January, about half-past two, I called at the station, and found the prosecutor there, suffering from contusion of the testicles and the perineum—he was in great pain—a kick on those parts would produce what I saw—he is not under my care now, but he is not able to do any work—it will be some time before those parts get quite well.
Monitors Defence. I do not deny the assault, but I deny the time the prosecutor states it was done; and then I should not have struck him without he struck me. He came to my bedroom door and demanded me to open it, and when I opened it he kicked me. That was between eleven and twelve o'clock at night, an hour before I was taken.
Mahomet's Defence. I have only three keys, and they were taken from me at the station.
MOULTON— GUILTY .— Confined Eighteen Months. MAHOMET— GUILTY on the second Count.— Confined Nine. Months.
MR. COOPER conducted the Prosecution. and MR. GOUGH defended Stokes.
GEORGE DOUGHTY . I live at 3, Ashley Place, Stepney, and am foreman to a builder—on Saturday, the 12th of January, between eleven and twelve in the morning, I was lighting my pipe near the Tower Hamlets Cemetery, Bow; West and Waterhouse asked me for some money—I am quite sure they are the two—I said, "I have not got a farthing in my pocket now, but I shall have some when I receive my money, about half-past two or three, and I shall be back by this road, and will give you some"—Stokes was there—after that I went away—about half-past three I received my money, 5l. 15s. 6d., in gold and silver, and put it into my lefthand trousers pocket—I went the same road back, and when I came to the place where the women first accosted me I found them there again with the three male prisoners—I am positive they are the men—I could see them as I was walking up to them—they were close together, stooping down round a fire made on the ground under one of the arches—Waterhouse came out of the arch, held out her hand, and asked me if I would give her some halfpence—I put my hand in my left-hand trousers pocket, pulled out a shilling, and gave it to her—I turned to walk away, and was struck from behind on the left side of the head with something hard, which cut my head open, and caused me to stagger and reel against the cemetery wall—three men then appeared in front of me, and rifled my pockets—Butcher and Bowdey are two of them—Stokes did not put his hand into my pockets, or do anything—they were all there at the time—I had my back to the wall—they all ran away, and when I recovered myself I tried to pursue them, but could not discover them—I returned back and saw West, who I immediately seized, and said, "You have been the instigation of me being knocked down and robbed of all my money"—she made no reply—I conveyed her to the station, and gave her in custody—I gave information at the station, and me and Howlett went in search of the other prisoners—we found Stokes at his house, and he was there given in charge—we found the others in the artillery barracks at Woolwich—they were placid in a
room with a number of soldiers, and I picked them out—that was on Saturday, the 12th January.
Cross-examined. Q. What time were you robbed? A. From a quarter to three to half-past—I did not know the female prisoners before—I am not in the habit of giving money to women I have not seen before, simply because they ask me—I was at work that day—some of the money belonged to a mate who worked with me—I had no beer—there is a range of arches, and it is rather dark there, but I was robbed outside the arches—I was confused at the blow—I did not hurt my head when I fell against the wall—it is impossible for me to swear who hit me—Stokes did not do anything, because he was too far off—the place where I was robbed was about a dozen yards from where they were sitting down—it was about three yards from the outside of the arches—I could not make much noise.
COURT. Q. How far off was Stokes when the other prisoners were rifling your pockets? A. About seven or eight yards—he was near the place where they had been sitting.
JAMES HOWLETT (Policeman 461 K). Waterhouse was brought to the station by Doughty, who made a charge there in her hearing—she said she knew nothing about it—Doughty described the other prisoners to me, and I took Stokes on the 15th January, at his house—I asked him if he was at the railway arches on Saturday, and he said, "Yes, I was, but not when the man was robbed"—I had not said a word to him about the man being robbed.
Cross-examined. Q. I suppose this robbery had been talked about in the neighbourhood? A. I cannot say—I did not look for him till the Tuesday following the robbery.
STEDMAN NICHOLS (Policeman 433 K). From information I received I went to Woolwich on Friday morning, the 25th of January—I there received some information, and took Butcher and Bowdey in custody—the prosecutor went with me to the artillery ground—we went into a room where there were about five soldiers about the same age and height—the prosecutor ran direct to Butcher and Bowdey, and said, "You are the two men who robbed me"—they said they were not there at all, and that he took the wrong men for it—on conveying them to the station Butcher said he knew of the robbery, but did not do it.
West's Defence. I was not there. I never spoke to the man. The girl gave me a penny to get a pennyworth of bread, and the prosecutor said, "You were the woman who robbed me." I said I was not.
Butcher's Defence. He takes me and Bowdey for two other chaps. I know who did it. I am innocent.
Bowdey's Defence. There were several more in the arch besides me.
Waterhouse's Defence. I am innocent.
The Court considered there was no evidence against STOKES. NOT GUILTY . WEST— GUILTY . Recommended to mercy by the Jury.— Confined Six Months. BUTCHER— GUILTY . He was farther charged with having been before convicted, to which he PLEADED GUILTY. **— Confined Eighteen Months. BOWDEY— GUILTY .— Confined Fifteen Months. WATER-HOUSE— GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months.
MR. STARLING conducted the Prosecution.
CALEB LANGFORD (Policeman 98 H). About half-past two on the morning of the 19th of January I was on duty in White Lion Street, Spital-fields—I saw the prisoner coming from the prosecutor's shop, 25, White Lion Street, which is at the corner of Wheeler Street—I saw him stand in a dark corner of a door—I passed down the street, stood back in another doorway, and watched him—I saw him go into Commercial Street, turn round, cross over to the opposite side, and come back to the prosecutor's shop—he then went to the corner of Wheeler Street, out of my sight—I went through Church Street Passage and saw him standing at the shop in Wheeler Street, with a shutter down in his hand—the window was broken, and his hand was partly in it—these boots (produced) were outside the shop, on the stones, under the window—I took hold of him—he immediately said, "Look here, here is a window broken"—I said, "Yes, it is you that did it"—he said, "No, you can say what you like, I did not do it"—I took him to the station—I searched him and found this knife and tobacco box (produced)—the pane was forced open, and there were three marks on the window-frame which exactly corresponded with the knife.
DANIEL LEARY . I am a coffee-house keeper, at 25, White Lion Street, and 86, Wheeler Street—my shop is at the corner of those two streets—I sleep in White Lion Street—on the night of the 18th of January I fastened up the house at twelve o'clock and then went to bed—next morning, about half-past two, I was awoke by the officer—I went down and found one of the shutters pushed on one side, the window broken, and three pairs of boots missing, not including this pair—they were in the shop the night before—I keep a boot shop and a second-hand clothes shop.
CALEB LANGFORD (re-examined). When I took the prisoner I saw another man at the farther end of the street—the prisoner was about twenty or thirty yards from the shop when I first saw him—he never spoke to me until I took him.
NOT GUILTY .
MR. DALY conducted the Prosecution.
HENRY WILLIAMS . I live at 4, Paddington Street, Clerkenwell, and am a groom—I was talking to some friends in the Edgware Road, and the prisoner came up and struck me a violent blow in my mouth with his fist, and seized my watch and chain—my watch was in my waistcoat pocket—I caught hold of him by the coat—he struck me two more violent blows, and I seized the chain from his hand—in the struggle we fell together, and a constable came up—he ran away towards Market Street, and I got up and followed him—Bennett stopped him and went up to him—I am sure he is the man—I never lost sight of him—when I went up to him I received two more violent blows from him in the face and forehead—I have suffered very much since—I have got a mark, and had a black eye—I lost hold of him, another witness tripped him up at the corner of Star Street, and I fell over him—a policeman came up and took him in custody.
Prisoner. I was walking down the Edgware Road—two prostitutes
were in front of me, and just as they got up against the prosecutor they pushed up against me—the prosecutor came and fell over me and cut his forehead.
Witness. That is not true—you came up with another man, and made some remarks—I did not see the other man afterwards—I got possession of part of the chain.
LUCY BENNETT . I live at 27, Hertford Street, Lisson Grove, and am single—I was talking to the prosecutor in the Edgware Road on this morning with another female, and saw the prisoner come up with another man—he said to the other female, "You have a husband at home; you ought to be in bed with him, and not with this man"—he then said to the prosecutor, "You go away," and struck him with his left hand and snatched his watch with his right—there was an Albert chain to it—the prosecutor seized hold of him, and the prisoner struck him two more blows in the face—they fell together, and I saw the prosecutor snatch his chain from the prisoner's hand—the prisoner then ran away—I ran after him, and called out, "Stop thief"—I caught hold of him, and he wrenched my arm and got away—a person was standing at the corner of Star Street, who tripped him up, and he fell—the prosecutor came up and fell on top of him—in the scuffle another man came up, who the prisoner passed the watch to—I believe he was the same man who was with the prisoner before I caught hold of him—the prisoner struck me a violent blow in the face, and I let go of him—a policeman came up, and the prisoner was given in custody—I am quire sure he is the man—I never lost sight of him.
Prisoner. Q. Did I not fall down, and the prosecutor fall over me? A. Yes, but that was after you had the watch—I saw you take the watch, and I said, "He has got the watch"—there was no one else nearer than three or four yards to us—I followed you to the station.
ROBERT FOUKE . I live at 18, Market Street, Paddington, and am a decorator—I heard screams of "Stop thief," and saw the prisoner running along the Edgware Road—I ran and tripped him up, and the prosecutor came and fell over him—he got up and ran towards Market Street, and I caught him and held him till the prosecutor came up, and he struck him two violent-blows in the face—a policeman came up, and he was given in charge.
JOHN JAQUES (Policeman 98 D). About one o'clock on this morning I heard a cry of "Stop thief" in the Edgware Road, and saw the prisoner struggling with the prosecutor, who gave him into my custody, and he said he knew nothing about it—he struggled very violently to get away—I received a chain from the prosecutor at the time he gave the prisoner in custody, which was broken—the watch has not been found.
The Prisoner's Statement before the Magistrate:—"I had been drinking. I was in company with another man."
Prisoner's Defence. I do not know anything about it.
GUILTY .— Confined Eighteen Months. There was another indictment against the prisoner.
238. JAMES ROBERTSON (21) PLEADED GUILTY ** to stealing two pairs of boots, one shawl, and other articles, the property of William Hitchcock, after a previous conviction.— Seven Years' Penal Servitude.
NEW COURT.—Thursday, January 31st, 1867.
Before Mr. Justice Keating.
239. ADOLPH GROEGER (37) and GEORGE SZAPALS (48) , Feloniously having in their possession 150 pieces of paper, upon which were printed certain parts of an undertaking for the payment of Russian fiverouble notes, without lawful excuse.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE and MR. SLEIGH conducted the Prosecution, and
the evidence was interpreted to the Prisoners.
JOHN CHESTER (Policeman 25 H). On the 3rd of January this year, about five o'clock in the evening, I went with another constable to 21, Newnham Street, Whitechapel—I had had no communication with any person connected with the Russian government—we went into the back room on the ground floor and found the two prisoners there, but no one else—it is not a very large room, there was room for a bedstead and two or three tables—I took them in custody and told them in English that I was a police officer and took them in custody for having in their possession, as I was informed, a quantity of forged notes; Groeger said, "Not me, I am innocent"—I searched Groeger, and found on him this black bag containing this genuine rouble note and three Russian coins (produced), also these five papers in an envelope—I saw Gulley, who was in plain clothes, search Szapals—I searched the bed and found these 107 notes (produced) wrapped in this cloth, and folded as nearly as I can say in this manner, as near the centre of the bed as could be, and between it and the mattress—the bed was about three feet and a half wide—it was made—the prisoners were sitting on the edge of the bed when I went in or one might have been in the bed and the other on a chair; it was dark and I could not see—there was no light but the fire—they saw me find the notes and made some remark in their own language—I cannot say that either of them said anything in English—we took them to the station, when Groeger said that he was innocent, and Szapals said something in his own language, which I could not understand—I showed Groeger one paper, it was translated by an interpreter, and he said in English, "That is mine, I wrote it"—Szapals did not appear to understand.
Groeger. I do not understand English, I spoke in German. Witness. Now I come to recall my memory, I think it was through an interpreter.
COURT. Q. Had you known the prisoners before? A. No, I never saw either of them—I do not know a person named Moses, unless it is the man who came to the station the same evening and gave information that we should find a quantity of notes at that house—two men came to the station—I have never seen them since, but next morning, when I was up at the Consul's office, I saw one of the men pass by there—I heard no inquiry made of either of them who they were or where they lived; they walked away—I have been, looking for the shortest one, the foreigner; he had an interpreter with him, a dark man, who I should know again—they appeared both to be foreigners, but one spoke both languages.
Groeger. No person came to our room but Moses. Witness. The man went with us to point cut the house.
man, apparently a foreigner, and the two prisoners came in in the evening, accompanied by the person who took the room—the police came that day week—the man who took the lodgings used to come about ten every morning, and did not stay more than ten minutes or a quarter of an hour—I do not know his name—the prisoners made their own beds—I have let lodgings to single gentlemen before, and have always made the bed myself—I have never let lodgings to Russians, but I have to Germans—the gentleman who brought the prisoners was a German, and I thought it was for himself—I did not make the bed, because they kept in the room and I could not go in while they were there—I think they made the bed in the morning, because they used to come by my kitchen for water, and I concluded that they were then making the bed—the man who took the apartments did not come on the day the police came; some one brought the policemen in the evening, and I thought at first it was him, it was very much like him, but I do not think it was him, he looked more like a brother—my impression is that he was not the same man—that was at five o'clock in the afternoon—I can say positively that no one had been there that morning—they slept there the night before, and the bed was made when the police came—I made the bed before they went into the house, on the Monday; there were no papers in it then—I locked the room and kept the key, and did not part with it till they came—I know where the papers were found, they could not have been there without my observing them—nobody but these men went into the room before the police came—I showed the room to the man who came, and locked the door afterwards—he did not go near the bed, he looked at the room, said that he liked it very well, paid a deposit of 1s., and said he would pay the other 4s. in the evening when he came, which he did; that was a week in advance.
Groeger. Q. Was there another German living in the house? A. Yes—he went to the door of your room on one occasion—that was to interpret for me, and ask whether they would allow me to come in and make the bed on Sunday morning, and on another occasion you called him into the room out of the yard—he could not have gone in without my knowing it—I am not aware that you borrowed English money of him.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. How long has this young German been living with you? A. Four or five months—he is a cigar maker, and works at a factory—he is a respectable young man.
HENRY HAZLEBROOK . I keep the Brunswick Arms, and was sent for to interpret by the police—the prisoners both appear to be Germans—Groeger speaks perfectly good German—when I told the charge to Szapals he said that he was innocent, but I could not understand what else he said—he speaks a patois from the shores of the Baltic—Groeger said that this was his writing.
Groeger. Q. Was it not given in evidence at the police-court that I had the permission of the Emperor of Russia to deal in these notes? A. You said something about your giving information against somebody to the Russian government about a large circulation of notes, but that you were innocent.
EUGENE KLEIN . I come from the Office of Finance in St. Petersburg—all these notes are forged, and this one, which was found on the prisoner, is genuine—they are five-rouble Imperial Bank notes, and circulate in the kingdom of Russia—they appear to be struck from the same plate, and are the same as those I examined yesterday—the numbers are done separately—they arrange that afterwards—they are very well done—
I have read this paper—it is in German, and was translated at the Consulate—I am master of the language enough to know that it is correctly translated. This, being interpreted, was a letter from Groeger to the Emperor of Russia, dated from East Prussia, 24th of November, 1866, which stated, "I can indicate a forged mint for money, which cireulates nearly a million of silver roubles, and I could forward as proof thousands of silver roubles. Hereby is enclosed from that mint five roubles silver."
COURT to EUGENE KLEIN. Q. Does silver roubles mean notes or coin? A. A silver rouble, properly speaking, is a coin, but there is no silver coin of five roubles, so that when he speaks of five silver roubles he necessarily means a five-rouble note.
Groeger handed in some passports and seven certificates to his good character.
COURT to EUGENE KLEIN. Q. What are these passports? A. They are both from the King of Prussia, and show that the bearer left Prussia on the 2nd of May, 1856—they are both to the same person—this is a certificate given from the Prussian Embassy in St. Petersburg, which gives him permission as a Prussian subject to stay in Russia; the date is the 22nd of June, 1866—this document in Groeger's writing is a memorandum of some business not connected with this case.
Groeger's Statement before the Magistrate:—"I beg some paper to write down what I have to say. I am innocent. I have given information to the Emperor of Russia. Where I came from, in my native place, we can get plenty of forged notes there: we get them from a Jew named Moses. I was going to give information to the Emperor of Russia where these papers were manufactured. Moses told me he would take me to the manufactory where they were made the day after I saw him. Instead of that, he brought me to London, without my knowing where I was coming, and he got a room for me for eight days. I asked him to take me back again the Thursday the landlady was present. I went out with Moses to get provisions. Moses did not come again, so the landlady sent out her son for them. Moses thought I was going to inform against him, and put the notes between the bed and mattress. As far as I know, he put them there the Wednesday morning when the snow was. I was going on Friday evening to the Prussian, or Russian, or English Consul, or some one high in authority. I was going to give information that I was brought to London without knowing it, and that I was going to Berlin to find out where the notes were forged, and to ask the Russian Consul to send me back home. Whilst I was thinking of this I was taken into custody. If I had known that the notes were bad, then I should have taken them to the Russian Consul. If I was allowed I would prove that Moses dealt in these false papers, if the English government would assist me."
Giveger's defence, being interpreted, was that, after writing the letter to the Emperor, he pretended to Moses that he wished to become a dealer at the forged note manufactory, believing that Moses would take him there, and he should find out where it was; that Moses brought him from Berlin to London, and when they were sleeping at Ghent, Moses, having found the letter to the Emperor and discovered from it his (Groeger's) intention to betray the manfactory, determined on ruining him, so that he could not harm him or the manufactory and for that purpose placed the notes in the bed, and then gave information to the police, leaving him with only a penny, and unable to speak English; that Moses might be arrested in Borlin, as he lived at the house
of three brothers, fur makers, at 29, High Rider Strasse, opposite a baking-house, down a courtyard, and on the first floor.
Szapal's Defence, being interpreted, was, that he met Moses in Berlin, who brought him and Groeger to London, without telling them where he was taking them to; that they could not go back, having no money; that they intended to go to the police and inform them of their situation, but in the meantime Moses must have placed the notes in their bed, and they were then taken; that he asked Moses to take them back to their own country, but he delayed it from day to day, which the landlady knew.
COURT to EMILY COOK. Q. He says that he asked Moses to take him back again to his country, and that you were present; do you remember Moses and Groeger conversing together at all? A. No; Moses used to come and take Groeger out with him, and they brought back provisions.
Groeger. Q. Did not I always speak to Moses in my own language? A. Never in my presence—I never heard either of you speak English.
Groeger. Moses told me that he spoke to the landlady, and said that on the Sunday he would take us away from there. Witness. Yes, Moses told me on Sunday evening that these men would leave on Monday at four o'clock.
COURT. Q. What was the day of the week when the police came? A. Thursday—the men did not leave at the time Moses said.
COURT to JOHN CHESTER. Q. You say that the man told you that if you went to 21, Newnham Street, you would find forged notes; did he tell you where you would find them? A. No—he described to me the room—he was a short man, with dark whiskers, a stiff hat, a short coat, and dark trousers—I do not know whether the inspector asked his name and address before I reached the station—I was sent for from home.
GUILTY . Strongly recommended to mercy by the Jury, believing them to be the tools of Moses, but knowing that the notes were forged, and being privy to their being placed there.— Confined Twelve Months each.
THIRD COURT.—Thursday, January 31st, 1867.
Before Mr. Recorder.
MR. BESLEY conducted the Prosecution, and MR. RIBTON the Defence.
CHARLES GINN . I am a hairdresser, of Tothill Street and Little Chapel Street—previous to October I had some negotiations with the prisoner and his mother about his becoming an apprentice—he was to have 2s. 6d. a week for the first six months and 5s. a week for the last; the binding was for twelve months—this is the indenture which was afterwards made, my name is here—I remember seeing the prisoner write in it—he entered my service under the indenture on the 28th October, 1865—I paid him half-a-crown a week the first six months, and 5s. a week during the last six months—two or three times during the first six months my wife paid him, I was not present—sometimes Monday was the day for payment, and sometimes Tuesday—he used to go out once a week for a holiday, and whenever he went he received the money—the last payment I made to him was 5s., on the 28th October—I gave him his indenture with the money—about a fortnight before the last payment of 5s. he asked
me if I would lend him 15s., to pay for two pictures he had given him to be framed—I communicated with my wife and said I would not lend it to him—I had no communication with him after he left on the 28th until I had a letter from him—the same day I received it I went to him and asked him what he meant by sending me that letter—he said he had put it into other parties' hands and had nothing to do with it—he said, "You owe me the money, and I shall have it"—George Westlake was with me—the prisoner said he had not received anything during the first six months, and only half-a-crown a week during the last six months—I said, "I owe you nothing, William, I paid you all; I paid you every week." (This letter was addressed by the prisoner to Mr. Ginn, stating that, while by the agreement on his indenture he should have received 2s. 6d. a week during the first six months of his service and 5s. a week during the last, he had received nothing during the first six months, and only 2s. 6d. a week during the last, and asking him to send the 6. due, to save further trouble.) I heard nothing more about the matter till I received the summons—this is it—I attended at the police-court before Mr. Arnold—the prisoner was examined—I saw him kiss the book—William Evans was with me and George Westlake—the prisoner was recalled by Mr. Arnold.
Cross-examined. Q. Was the prisoner apprenticed to you by some charity? A. Yes, I received the sum of 5l.—during the last six months my wife did not pay him at all, because I was always at home—I used to pay him in my shop in Little Chapel Street—he used to be sometimes in one and sometimes in the other—I always paid him in Chapel Street—I mostly used to work there—I paid him on Monday or Tuesday, from one to a quarter-past—sometimes William Evans was present—another witness is dead—he was not alive when I was summoned before the Magistrate—I never made any entry of the payments—I do not keep a book—I am so exact as to the time because he always used to go to his dinner at one o'clock—he always took a holiday on the Monday or Tuesday, and did not come back till next morning—he used not to lodge with me—Evans was present during the last six months, when I paid the prisoner 5s. a week—I paid him at the same time, one to a quarter-past, during the last six months—Evans was called before the Magistrate—I have said nothing to him since we left the Magistrate at all on the subject, nor before I went to the Magistrate—he has been my apprentice two years last month—I pay him nothing, but allow him 6d. a week pocket-money—there is an indenture—I am not bound by it to pay him anything—he boards and lives in the house—I have never had an apprentice on the same terms as the prisoner—it is not usual to take an apprentice for twelve months, and pay him half-a-crown during the first six months and 5s. during the last—I attend to nothing else besides shaving and haircutting—I don't deal in jewellery—I have never bought Albert chains—I bought a ticket once of a man and took a watch and chain out of pawn—I recollect an officer from the Mendicity Society calling upon me to ask me about the prisoner's means—(a person brought forward)—I do not know whether it was that man or not—it was while the prisoner was in my service, when his wife was confined—I should not like to swear it was four months ago—I will not swear it was not October—I did not tell him, in answer to his questions on that occasion, that I only paid the prisoner half-a-crown a week—I told him he was having a crown—I said "a crown"—I did not say "five shillings."
MR. BESLKY. Q. Just tell us what this conversation was? A. He
came and asked whether he was deserving of charity, or something of that kind, I cannot tell the words he used—I said that he was—he said what was he having—I said "a crown" a week—I think those were the only words which passed—he was there five minutes altogether.
SUMMERS HIGGINS . I am one of the clerks of Westminster Police-court—this was a summons issued by Mr. Arnold against James Ginn for payment of 6l. for wages due to his apprentice, William Proud—the defendant appeared—the prisoner was sworn—I have a minute of his examination. (Reading:—"When I was bound the indenture was read over, but I did not hear it. A counterpart of it was not supplied to me. I served till the 28th of October. I received nothing for the first six months, and half-a-crown a week during the last six months. On the last payment of half-a-crown Westlake was present. Since I served my apprenticeship I have applied for 6l. He said he did not owe me anything. For the last six months it was only half-a-crown a week."
Cross-examined, by MR. ROBERTS (who appeared for the defendant). "I did not read over the indenture in November. Before I was bound the defendant said I was to have 2s. 6d. a week for the first six months, and 5s. a week afterwards. I did not think of the 5s. a week while I was there. I said nothing about the payment of the 2s. 6d. a week during the first six months. I trusted defendant's honesty. I did ask defendant to lend me 15s. to pay for some picture-frames. The week before I left I did say to Mr. Westlake, 'I wonder whether Mr. Ginn will give me anything when I go away.' I did not know how to set about it, or I should have taken proceedings before.") The defendant was sworn and called witnesses—he said he owed him nothing, and that he had paid him every week 2s. 6d. a week during the first six months, and 5s. a week during the last six months—the prisoner was then recalled by the Magistrate, and said, "I have heard the defence taken by the defendant, and his evidence, and I still say only received 2s. 6d. a week during the last six months, and nothing at all during the first six months"—the Magistrate dismissed the summons with 30s. costs, and the defendant was called upon to provide two bails of 25l. each to appear at this Court on a charge of perjury.
WILLIAM MANAGER KEELEY . I am clerk to the trustees of Lady Jane Grimsoll's Charity—I produce a paper, signed by the trustees, which I received from the prisoner's mother; also a paper from which the indenture was prepared—this is by the master, signed in my presence when the money was paid—it was read by me to all the parties who were present—Mr. Ginn was present, the prisoner, and his parents—it was a very small room—the prisoner must have heard it read.
Cross-examined. Q. Do you know whether the prisoner is deaf or not? A. No—when I say he must have heard it, of course I mean supposing he had ordinary hearing—I am in the habit of reading papers of this sort—I read it in the usual way.
WILLIAM EVANS . I am an apprentice to Mr. Ginn—I am 15—I was in Mr. Ginn's service before the prisoner came; in October or November—he was in Mr. Ginn's service a twelvemonth—I saw him paid half-a-crown the first week he was there, and on several occasions during the first six months half-a-crown—during the last six months I saw him paid 5s. Four or five times—when he first came he was not, to my knowledge, deaf at all—about the last month he was there he was a little deaf.
Cross-examined. Q. What day of the week was he paid? A. Generally on a Monday—he was paid in the shop in Little Chapel Street, generally
about one o'clock—he used to leave off work at one o'clock, to go to his dinner, and used to go for a holiday after, and he was paid before he went to his dinner—during the first six months I saw him paid about four times—I saw him paid the first week he was there, next about three weeks after, and the third time about six weeks after he was there—I never saw him paid during the last two months of the first six months—I was close to him—I was there more than four times during the six months, but was not always there to see him paid—I never saw him paid any day' but Monday—my master told me I was going as a, witness before the Magistrate—he only told me to speak the truth—he asked me if I remembered seeing the prisoner paid—I said I did—he said to me, "I shall want you to go to-morrow to the police-court; Bill is summoning me, and says I owe him 6l.; you know very well I have always paid him"—"Well," I said, "I have seen you pay him at one o'clock"—I am sure I said that before he said one o'clock—that was all he said to me—I saw him paid 5s. in the same place—I cannot say what coin it was in, it was always in silver—I know it was 5s., because I was close to him—my master did not say what I was to say before the Magistrate—I said, "I have seen him paid 5s."—my master said nothing to me except asking questions—since the examination I have not been talking with him about it; not a word.
GEORGE WESTLAKE . I entered Mr. Ginn's service about the beginning of October last year—the prisoner was then there—I saw him paid twice—in October—I don't know the amount—on the last day he was paid he said he should like to know whether Mr. Ginn would give him anything extra, as he was going away—I went with Mr. Ginn after he received the letter from the prisoner to the shop kept by the prisoner.
Cross-examined. Q. Did he at any time complain to you that he ought to have received 2s. 6d. a week during the last six months, which he had not got? A. No—I saw him paid in Mr. Ginn's shop—I think it was about one o'clock—I cannot say what was paid to him.
MR. RIBTON submitted that the Magistrate's jurisdiction with respect to differences and complaints arising between masters and apprentices, was gone when that relation ceased to exist, and therefore that the Magistrate had no jurisdiction in the complaint made by the prisoner against Mr. Ginn, when the alleged perjury was committed. MR. BESLET contended that the Magistrate's jurisdiction would depend upon the contract. He was required to see the indenture, to see that there had been the relationship between the parties, and in the case of a dispute arising out of that contract it would not matter when the proceedings were taken. THE COURT reserved the point. MR. RIBTON then submitted that, supposing the Magistrate had jurisdiction, yet by the llth and 12th Vict., cap. 43, that jurisdiction extended only over mailers occurring in the six months preceding, and consequently the assignment of perjury must be confined to the last six months. THE COURT considered that if the Magistrate had jurisdiction, the whole of the evidence would be material.
Witnesses for the Defence.
MARIA BUNN . The prisoner is my son by a former husband—he is lame—he is unfit for any other except quiet employment, such as a hairdresser—he was apprenticed by Grimsoll's Charity to Mr. Ginn—they paid 4l. 10s., and I advanced the other 10s.—I put my cross to the indenture—I did not hear it read over—I cannot remember whether it was read over—during the first six months he was there I took his dinner every day, more or less, to him, at the shop in Tothill Street, Westminster—I saw
him at work there—I hardly ever saw Evans there—during the first six mouths I never took his dinner to the other place—I did during the last six months—he has been deaf more or less for four or five years—sometimes he can hear better than at others.
Cross-examined. Q. Can he write? A. Yes—before I could get the 4l. 10s. from the charity I had to get a paper signed by a gentleman—I had it in my possession two or three days—my son was living at home with me, and I think he saw the paper.
COURT. Q. How long did your son continue to live with you? A. For about six or seven months—he was married during his apprenticeship—he left me when he married—her father, a master plasterer, helped them a great deal—I know of some one from the Duke of Buccleuch assisting him—I don't know of his applying to any one, but I think his wife did—she was confined the last day of August.
JOSEPH PRITCHARD . I have been an officer of the Mendicity Society nearly twenty years—between the 27th of September and the 2nd of October I was sent to Mr. Ginn to make inquiries—this is the report of the case I made at the time, after visiting the family, the next day or so—I made no entry at the time I visited Mr. Ginn—on the 2nd of October I took in my report—I am sure it was between the 27th of September and the 2nd of October—I merely asked him whether he employed the prisoner, what wages he gave, and what was his character—he said he gave him half-a-crown a week: he was only an apprentice, and he gave him no more than that—I am quite sure he said half-a-crown—I could not have made a mistake about it being a crown—I had heard it was half-a-crown a week before I went; because I went to his wife first—I made a report of that three days afterwards—they afterwards received relief, 30s.
Cross-examined. Q. When was your attention drawn to the conversation with Mr. Ginn? A. Three or four days ago.
MR. RIBTON. Q. What had the prisoner's wife told you? A. That her husband had half-a-crown a week from Mr. Ginn.
GEORGE JOHNSON SLADE . I am a hairdresser—I have been in Mr. Ginn's employment some time between August and September—I saw the prosecutor's wife pay the prisoner half-a-crown in Tothill Street—I am not sure whether there was one or two sixpences, and the rest in coppers—I think it was on a Friday, but I could not say.
Cross-examined. Q. Do you know of a quarrel between Mr. Ginn and his sister? A. Yes—I never took a parcel from Mr. Ginn's house—I left his service at the time of the quarrel, without notice; the same week I saw the money paid—if I had stopped till the Saturday I should have been there three weeks altogether.
COURT. Q. Was the amount you saw paid named? A. Yes—by the mistress.
The prisoner received a good character. GUILTY . Recommended to mercy by the Jury.— Judgment respited.
FOURTH COURT.—Thursday, January 31st, 1867.
Before Mr. Common Serjeant.
MR. STRAIGHT conducted the Prosecution, and MR. COOPER the Defence.
GUILTY .— Seven Years' Penal Servitude.
MR. GRIFFITHS conducted the Prosecutiont and MESSRS. MONTAGU WILLIAMS and STRAIGHT the Defence.
NOT GUILTY .
OLD COURT.—Wednesday, January 30th; Thursday, January 31st; Friday, February 1st; Saturday, February 2nd; and Monday, February 4th, 1867.
Before Mr. Justice Blackburn.
244. CHARLES WILLIAM LEE WEBB (20) was indicted for feloniously casting away the ship Severn, with, intent to defraud; and THOMAS BERWICK (42), LIONEL HOLDSWORTH (41), and JOSEPH STANSFIELD DEAN (42) were charged as accessories before and after the fact.
MR. SOLICITOR-GENERAL, with MR. GIFFARD, Q.C., MR. F. H. LEWIS, and MR. MONTAGU WILLIAMS, appeared for the Prosecution.
MESSRS. SLEIGH and KEMP defended Webb; MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE, with MR. METCALFE, defended Berwick; MR. SERJEANT TINDAL ATKINSON, with MR. WARNER SLEIGH, defended Holdsworth; and MR. RIBTON appeared for Dean.
HUGH THOMAS LEYLAND . I have been a master mariner since 1838—I commanded a ship for Holdsworth before 1866, called the Thomas, which was lost in a gale of wind off the west coast of Scotland—in March, 1866, I received a letter from Holdsworth—it is destroyed—it was to hold myself in readiness to take command of the Severn, which his friends were about buying at that time—on the receipt of that letter I came up from Liverpool to London, and saw Holdsworth at his office in Fenchurch Street—I had known him before that in Liverpool—I saw Dean in Fenchurch Street, he was a clerk in Holdsworth's office at the time—Holdsworth told me that his friends were about buying the ship Severn, that she was then on her passage from London to Newport, and was chartered for Shanghae, and that if the ship was purchased they would give me the command—he told me to hold myself in readiness—I went back to Liverpool and received a telegram or letter, I am not certain which, to proceed to Newport and meet him there—I destroyed that letter—I destroyed all my papers—I went to Newport, and there met Holdsworth and Berwick—that was on the 20th of of March, 1866, to the best of my recollection—I went from the Newport railway station to the King's Head hotel in a cab—on the way to the King's Head I met Holdsworth and Berwick—Holdsworth told me to drive on to the King's Head—I did so and met them there—I dined with them that day, in the coffee-room—Berwick told me that he
had purchased the ship, and that he had brought a mate from London to go out in the ship as mate—he said that he had known him for some time, and that he was a very trustworthy man—he said his name was Webb—the conversation was about the value of the ship, what it cost, and I think Berwick told me it would cost him 7000l. to put her to sea, that they intended to insure her for 8000l. or 9000l., and that they did not think she would ever reach China—this conversation was at the dinner-table in the coffee-room of the King's Head—they told me, in the event of the ship not reaching China, it would be worth 700l. to me, that Webb was a man whom they could depend upon, and that I was not to interfere with him, he knew what he was sent on board for—nothing more was said daring that conversation—Holdsworth said that Webb was an eccentric character, but that I would have to sail with him, as the owners wished him to go in the ship—he also told me I had better insure my effects for 200l.—that was after Berwick had left—I said that I would insure my effects for 100l. and my life for another 100l.—I said I had not 200l. worth of property—I do not remember anything more being said—I was introduced to Webb the same evening by Holdsworth, who told me that he was a particular friend of Berwick's, and that Berwick wished him to go in the ship—I received the Severn papers that evening from the late captain—on the following day I told Webb to go on board and take charge of the ship, and take an inventory of her stores—Holdsworth and Berwick left at noon the next day—the Severn was lying at Newport at that time—Berwick told me that he had been through the vessel a few days before, and said she was a very magnificent ship—I remained at Newport until the vessel sailed—Webb remained by the ship, but had liberty to go to London—that was three or four weeks after this interview—he went because the ship was neaped in dock, and the outer dock was dry—he asked my leave, and I gave it him—he was absent three days—shortly after his return Holds-worth came down to Newport, it may have been a week after—before that I had made a complaint to Holdsworth by letter—I received a reply from him—I have destroyed that letter—he told me to bear with Webb, as the owners wished him to go in the ship, and I was not to discharge him on any account until I saw him—when Holdsworth came down Webb took him into my cabin and was with him there about ten minutes—after that Holds-worth told me he had spoken to Webb, and I should have no further trouble with him—he told me he was put on board by the owner for a special purpose, and must go, and that it would only be for the passage out—a few days after that I saw Holdsworth at Newport, when he came down to clear the ship out—he handed me a bill of lading to sign for some cases that were on board, that came from Allsopp's—he had spoken to me before this about the cases, about a month before we sailed—we left the dock, and hauled out in the roads on the 15th of May—he told me that Allsopp and Co. had a dozen cases of hardware or firearms, I am not certain which, and that I should have ten pounds for carrying them as cabin freight—he gave me the ten pounds when he came to clear the ship—he afterwards gave me a brace of revolvers—the cases came that I was to carry in the cabin about ten days before we sailed—they were put in the store-room, and were addressed, "The Captain, Ship Severn"—they were marked in a diamond with a "W"—the cases were on board at the time he brought me this document (produced) to sign—I signed three other documents in blank; they were not filled up with the contents, but this one was filled up with the exception of my signature.
(This stated the shipment on board the Severn, from William Allsopp and Co., of twelve cases, containing 500 revolvers, 200 carbines, 200 sabres, and 200 swords, to be delivered at Shanghae, dated London, May 12,1866, signed by the witness, endorsed "William Allsop and Co.," and in the margin was a diamond, with "W. S.") The cases were marked with an "S," as well as a "W"—I think Holdsworth said the contents of the cases were hardware—when he gave me the revolvers he said they were a specimen of the contents of the cases—they were small soft-wood cases, bound with iron hoops—I never received any instructions from Holds worth, or any of the prisoners, what was to become of the cases—they were not addressed to any one else but myself—the ship was well provisioned for a twelve months' voyage—Holdsworth managed the provisioning of the ship—he ordered the stores—when the ship was in the dock I had an opportunity of seeing whether the ship was tight and strong—she was perfectly tight, and newly coppered—the copper was carried twenty feet forward and nineteen and a half aft—that is quite as high as usual—she also had a wood sheathing which went about five feet above the copper amidships, and three feet above aft, which would cover all trenail holes in the outer skin of the vessel—the object of the wood sheathing is to prevent the galvanic action of the sea upon the copper nails of the vessel—it is fastened on by nails from five to six inches long—they are of yellow metal—they are not fastened on by trenails or bolts—when we hauled out of Newport the Severn drew twenty-two feet six inches of water—about a week after we sailed from Newport Webb asked me whether he might put some hands in the boats, and I told him he could do so—the boats were all put in good order and fit for use—some time after that I remember Webb being in the store-room, where the twelve cases were—the store-room was in the after end, under the cabin, between decks—the cabin was in a house on deck—the vessel was American-built—after Webb came out of the store-room he said he had opened one of the cases, and found that it contained salt—I said, "You had no right to open the case"—he said he was anxious to know what was inside the cases, as he thought they did not contain arms, from their being so light—there was a little salt in the vessel, for the ship's use, which came from Liverpool—we had tolerably good weather until we were off Cape St. Vincent, where we had an ordinary gale of wind—it did not amount to a storm—we close-reefed the upper topsails—there was nothing in that weather, in my judgment, that would cause the ship to make water—she did make water, and increased her leakage very suddenly—that was about a fortnight before she went down—we had then been out about a fortnight—when we found the ship make water we pumped her dry—we had to pump her every two hours after that, till there was no water in her—the strength of the gale lasted about twelve hours; after that, we got to the trade winds—we had very fine weather then—we continued to pump her every two hours up to the 14th of June—the pumps sucked her every two hours—on the 14th of June we found that the vessel began to make more water, about four o'clock in the afternoon (she had made water before that)—it took some twenty minutes to half an hour to get the pumps dry, before they sucked—when the pumps sucked there was about seven inches of water in her—about four o'clock on the 14th of June I observed that the men at the pumps had a much longer spell than usual—they had been pumping an hour without suck—I then sounded the pumps myself, and found about twenty-six inches of water I think; I do not remember exactly—about eight o'clock that night Webb came to me on the poop and asked me if I would get the boats out, as the water was gaining on the
pumps, and that the ship was going down—I told him I thought he had tampered with the ship—he said it was done, and could not he undone—I asked what he had done—he said he had bored a hole, and in the act of driving a plug in he had broken the plug in the skin, and he could not possibly stop it—I told him he was mad to do such a thing to a ship in such a position, so far off the land, and told him to go below and endeavour to stop it, for it was plain to every person that the ship had been tampered with—this was about eight o'clock—he went down, and was there about ten minutes—he came again to me, and said it was impossible to stop it, as the water had flowed over the hole—if a plug had been broken in driving it into the inner skin, that would let the water in—the timber would be a foot or fifteen inches thick where I suppose the hole would have been bored, and there would have been fifteen or sixteen inches of space between the inner and outer skin, and the water would flow in there—when he said the water had flowed over the hole I said he was mad, for he would destroy every man in the ship—he said it would be better to get the boats out at once, as there Was no chance of saving the ship—I told him I would not get the boats out till the morning, and that I would hold the ship up for the Cape de Verd—that was the nearest land, but we were 180 miles to leeward of the nearest point—they were to the windward of the ship, and we were to the leeward of the islands—I held the ship up for the islands, for Port Baya, which was the only port we could fetch, and continued pumping the water in the vessel until noon next day—I divided the crew into three watches, and kept them continually at the pumps—at eight o'clock the next morning some of the crew came to me and requested me to get the boats out—the water was then gaining on the pumps, about six inches of water an hour—I kept them pumping up to twelve or one o'clock the next morning, the 15th of June—about two o'clock in the afternoon I gave directions to have the boats got out, and told the mate to provision the boats for twenty days—he told me the breakers were not filled, and that he would fill them himself—they were ten-gallon breakers—there were either ten or a dozen of them—they had been ordered by Webb in Newport—the boats were provisioned and the long boat filled with men—I was in the cabin when the long boat was manned—it was loosed down by the tackle and allowed to go astern—several of the crew were in her at that time—after that had been done Webb came to me in the cabin and told me that the men were crying out that there were two holes in the stern, and that he would have to shove off—he then went away in the long boat and cruised off in the distance, ahead of the ship—the long boat never got astern of the ship after that, as far as I know—Webb came to me on board again about six in the evening, on the starboard gangway—I hailed him—I called him into the cabin and told him that the merest child on board the ship could see that she had been wilfully destroyed—he said that there was no fear, he could buy the whole of the crew over, and that he did not believe any of them had seen the holes—he wanted me to leave the ship, but I told him I would not, and that I would rather go down in the ship than face the exposure—she was in a sinking state then—Webb did not say anything then that I recollect—he left me and went away in the boat—the carpenter, the boatswain, and three others, my boat's crew of the gig, were left on board—I remained until half-past seven, and then by the persuasion of the boatswain and carpenter I left—the ship could not have remained above water more than an hour after I left her I should think—I did not see her go do down—Webb had the log-book
in the long boat—(looking at a book) this is not the log-book—it dots not Resemble it—it was an old blue book—Webb wrote the log-book—I steered the gig about till the next morning—I found the long boat, but I lost sight of the cutter about eleven o'clock on the night of the 15th, and never saw her again—three days after leaving the ship I met a Hanoverian schooner—she was short of provisions and could not take us on board, and the captain advisd us to cruise about until we could fall in with some vessel—the day after that the crew of the long boat and the gig were taken up by the Arequipa, and we were taken to Pernambuco—we got there on the 11th of July—I received the log-book of the Severn on board the Arequipa from Webb—I looked over it and told him that he had exaggerated it too much—on that he cut some pages out and re-wrote it in the same book—I pasted some of the pages together and repaired it with paste, for it had got wet in the long boat—Webb re-wrote the log-book in the mate's cabin of the Arequipa; the door was locked at the time he did it—what was written in the log-book was taken to the British Consul at Pernambuco—I saw it last in Holdsworth's office, in Fenchurch Street—Berwick, Holdsworth, and Webb were present when I saw it; that was about the 7th or 8th of August, after we got back—I and Webb came home in the steamer Oneida to Southampton, and occupied the same cabin on the voyage—Webb told me he had bored seven holes in the bottom of the Severn—I said that it was mad for him to do such a thing, and that it was plain to the whole ship's crew that the ship had been scuttled—he said that it was all right, he could talk them over or buy them over—he also said he had done the same thing before with the Jane Brown, for Berwick—he told me he had done it the same way as the Severn, he had bored three holes in her—he told me he had bored holes now and again in the Severn, and had plugs for them as he bored them—he said that the two holes the men saw he had bored in the first gale of wind we had, and that was what caused the first leak—he also said that he could take the plugs out and put them in at his pleasure—he said he had broken the plug in the inner skin in driving it in, and when he found he could not stop it he pulled the other plugs out to make safe work—he said that was on the evening of the 14th of June, when she first sprang a leak—between three and four o'clock on that day I heard a knocking in the aft end of the ship, but I could not tell from whence it came—I know that it came from below deck—I was in the cabin when I heard it—this is the cabin I am speaking of (pointing to a model)—that is the place where I and the mate lived—that is the store-room at the end with the bulkhead—the coals were amidships up to the 'tween decks, at the ends—they were not full—the coals in the hold were full up to between decks and tapered off at the ends—there was an open space of fifteen feet from the stern post to the after end of the coals—there is a scuttle just before the bulkhead by which a person could go down into that fifteen feet space—it was a small hatchway behind the mate's cabin, by which he could get down into the store-room—when I got to Southampton I sent Holdsworth a telegram—I arrived at Southampton on the 2nd of August, and went up to town the same night—I went alone—I found Holdsworth at his office door in Fen-church Street—I told him that the sinking of the ship would be sure to be found out, that the men had seen holes in the ship, and had threatened to report it—he said that it was a bad job, but he would hear what Webb had to say in the morning—I told him that I was certain it would come to light, for the ship was lost in almost a calm—he seemed
very uneasy about it—about ten or eleven o'clock the next day I went again to Holdsworth's office—I found Holdsworth and Webb there—Webb said that the ship's company had seen him to the station at Southampton, and had given him three cheers, and that it was all right, and would never be found out—Holdsworth looked at the log-book, and said that it would be all right—Webb brought the log-book—Holdsworth examined the protest, and said it was all correct—Webb said that he had sounded the carpenter, that he had not seen the holes, and that no person but Kelly and the boatswain had seen them, and that they had threatened to report having seen them, because I had punished them for stealing rum, but that he had talked them over, and we should hear no more about it—Webb told me that Kelly had taken rum, but I had no other proof—I did not speak to Kelly about it—Webb spoke to me about Kelly having taken rum, on board the Arequipa—some days after this I was again at Holdsworth's office, when Berwick, Webb, Holdsworth, and Dean were present—Holdsworth sent Dean out of the office, and took the log-book out of his desk, and asked me how it would do—before this I had had a conversation with Holdsworth about another log-book, about a week after I arrived—after that he told Webb he had better get another log-book, because it had been tempered with and re-written—Webb said that he could get a new log-book and copy it—I went to Liverpool immediately after that—I was away a week I think, and when I returned I saw this one (marked A)—Webb was in the office at the time with the book—he brought the book there that morning, and he was turning down the leaves and soiling it by rubbing each page with his hand—it was all written then—it is in Webb's handwriting—Dean was sent out before the book was produced—I told them that the log would never pass muster, because any person could see at once that it was a new book, and had never been to sea—Holdsworth and Berwick both wetted the edges of the leaves and rubbed them—Holdsworth told me he would give me 10l. a month to keep me going until the insurances were recovered—only Holdsworth and myself were present then—this was about the time this book was produced—I last saw the book in Captain Downward's office—before I saw it there I last saw it at Holdsworth's office, on the occasion when they were wetting the edges of the leaves and turning them down—I got back to Liverpool on the 4th or 5th of November—in consequence of a communication I received on my arrival, I went to Berwick's house and saw him there—that was at the Willows, near Liverpool—that is the name of the street I believe—I think his house is 25, the Willows—he said that he had asked me to call upon him to let me know that he was going to London the next day to see how the business was going on, because he could get no information about it from any person—I told him that I thought the business would fall through—I also told him that there were inquiries about it, and that it was in the hands of Captain Downward—he said that he had had a letter from Holdsworth a few days previously, stating that the case was going on all right, that the underwriters wanted to compromise the matter—I told him that I was very short of money, that I had not had a remittance from Holdsworth lately, and I asked if he would lend me a few pounds—he lent me a sovereign, and said that he would send me a remittance as soon as he got to London—about three days after, Holdsworth came to Liverpool, and gave me 5l.; he told me the underwriters were going to prosecute me criminally, in consequence of my insuring my effects for 200l.—he said my insurance was the cause of all the row—I told him I did it at his
suggestion, or that he did it for me rather—he told me to go up to London and meet him there the following day—we parted then, and I never saw Holdsworth again until he was in custody—I had consented to insure for 200l., 100l. on my life and 100l. on my effects—I had given those directions to Holdsworth—I never heard from him whether he had done it, until I returned—I then heard from him that he had insured 200l. on my effects, and he sent the policy—this is it (produced)—I returned it to Holdsworth, (This was in the Friend-in-Need, dated the 8th of June, 1866, for 200l., on chronometer, nautical instruments, charts, books, wearing apparel, &c. Premium paid, fourteen guineas.) I did not pay the fourteen guineas—About ten days after the interview I have described with Holdsworth an inspector of the Liverpool police came to me—I made a statement to him, and when I was brought to London I made a statement at Lloyd's.
Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. You say you had known Holdsworth for some years, and also Berwick? A. I have known them—I knew Berwick as a master mariner—I had never seen Dean until the commencement of this transaction—Dean was in Holdsworth's office when I went there after receiving the letter from Holdsworth—Holdsworth desired Dean to leave the office, as he wished to have some conversation with me—after Dean left we had a conversation with reference to the appointments of this vessel, and entered into the whole particulars, in Dean's absence—after my return to London I had several interviews at the office—on almost every occasion Dean was desired to leave; when any business connected with the ship was broached Dean was sent out of the office.
Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. How long have you been in the business you are now in? you are a master mariner I understand? A. Since 1838—this was not the first accident of the kind that happened while I was master of a ship—the first I had was with a ship in 1845—that was the Edward Robinson—she sunk with a cargo of tea at Sheerness—she was under water and damaged her tea—I was master of that ship—an anchor pricked her bottom I believe—there was some inquiry about it—I had a pilot on board at the time—the inquiry was as to the nature of the loss of the ship, or rather the sinking—there was no imputation on me, no charge of any kind, I am quite sure of that—the pilot was examined—he had the charge of the ship at the time—that is not the only ship that has gone down while I have been the master—I lost a ship last year—I have known Berwick personally not twelve months—I had known him more than a month before I met him at Newport; two or three months—Holdsworth introduced me—I went out in this vessel, knowing that it was to be sunk, but I did not intend to sink her—I did not go out as a party to assist in that—I did not go out as a party to prevent it—I went out as a person to have the appearance of the captain, but to do nothing either to assist or prevent—that was the position in which I was placed on board—that was the position that I understood I was there for the purpose of carrying out—I knew that there was a gross and scandalous fraud to be committed, and I was willing to lend myself to it—I did lend myself to it—that was the first of any kind of fraud that I lent myself to—up to that time I had been a respectable man, with a character—no act of dishonesty was ever brought home to me—I believe I was thoroughly respectable, according to the world's ideas, up to that time—I cannot tell you why they selected me for this—I cannot give you an idea—I was recommended as a thoroughly good seaman, and, I believe, as a thoroughly respectable man—
I am fifty-one years of age—I did not remonstrate with them when this was proposed to me—I did not endeavour to persuade my owners against it—I took command of the vessel, knowing that they wished her to be destroyed, and that there was a party sent on board for the purpose of destroying her, and that they wished me to stand by and see it done—I admit that I was very wrong in doing so, and I am very sorry for it, perhaps not so sorry as if I had been in the dock—I did not intend to do it—I intended to take the ship to China—I was engaged for the purpose of standing by and seeing it done, but I intended to take the ship to China—at the time I took her out of the dock at Newport I intended her to arrive safely in China—I had no idea of allowing her to be scuttled—I intended to prevent it by all the means in my power.
Q. What made you swear just now that you knew the purpose for which you were employed, and that you intended to stand by and allow her to be scuttled? A. I do not think I said that—I did not go out innocently—I intended to have rogued the owners—I intended to have taken the ship to China—I intended to rogue the owners by taking the vessel safe—when I heard there was a hole in the bottom of the ship I did not go down to look at it—I was in complicity—I was an accomplice as far as lending myself to the transaction—I did not wish it to be exposed—had I gone down there, or sent the carpenter down, of course it would have then been known to all hands clearly that the ship was to be sunk, and I did not wish to save her then—I was engaged by the owners, and when Webb was put on board they told me that he was put on board for the special purpose of destroying the ship; that I knew—I knew there was something the matter with the ship in calm water—I did not go down and see what it was, because I was afraid of being detected by the crew—I intended to do honestly to the underwriters—I was afraid of detection, or I should have stopped the leak—I went out to make a living anyhow, that is about it, and whichever line roguery might take, I was willing to adopt it at that time—I thought the better plan would be to take the ship to China—that would be the most profitable to me and the most upright.
Cross-examined by MR. KEMP. Q. In addition to the log-book kept by the mate, did you keep a log-book? A. Yes; I destroyed that—I destroyed all my papers and books, including the log-book—it was a blue book—I bought it at a stationer's shop, I think, at Newport—I believe I destroyed it in the boat—I think so, at the time I destroyed the letters—letters, log, and chart went over together—I threw nearly everything in the boat overboard—I did not leave them to go down in the ship—I had not made up my mind what course I would take—I was never threatened with a prosecution—I knew the detective who was after me, and to save myself I made this statement; not to save myself; I intended to have made the statement when I found the case broke down—I never expected to get 700l.—I expected perhaps 100l.—I was promised 700l., and the mate 100l. I believe—he told me so—I never expected to get the 700l.
Q. Then what motive had you for assisting in this scuttling? A. I did not assist in scuttling her, they misled me—I was given to understand that the ship was to be destroyed in the China seas—I was told I should have 700l.—I expected I should have got perhaps 100l. or 200l.—when I found I was not likely to get that I thought I would tell the underwriters—if I had got my 100l. or 200l. perhaps I should not have said anything about it—there was no fire on board the ship about ten days after we were out—there was a little turpentine spilt, which caught fire, but the ship did
not catch fire—the mate did not put it out—the boatswain did I believe—the mate and I were both present—the mate assisted in putting it out, all the crew assisted—the mate was not the first man that came up—the boatswain was the first man at the fire I believe, I am not sure—Webb himself told me that the boatswain put it out—it was about four or five days after that that I heard the knocking in the after part of the ship—I knew from the commencement that she was intended to be destroyed, but I did not know she was to be destroyed at that time—I had not the shadow of an idea of it—I did not make inquiries about the knocking—I thought it was the carpenter at work—it never struck me who it was knocking—perhaps it might have been the carpenter—I was not on deck that afternoon from dinner time to four o'clock—it was not a heavy gale that we had—we have the topsails reefed in a gale in a deep sea, when the wind is contrary—she was tolerably deep, well laden; with a contrary wind we generally bring the ship under a snug canvas—Webb sent the man Kelly to me to apologise for having said he would report seeing holes in the stern of the ship—he said he was very sorry for it, but he did not intend to make any report of the sort—he said he was very sorry for what he had said to Webb—I never knew that there was a quarrel between Webb and Kelly about taking spirits from the ship—Webb mentioned that Kelly had stolen a bottle of rum, but that was after Kelly had reported seeing holes in the stern—when I went to Holds worth's I saw the old log-book—I knew where Webb was lodging at the time—I went to his lodgings from time to time—I did not take with me either that log-book or another at any time—I do not know the name of the woman where he lodged—I should know her if I saw her—she washed some clothes for me—I did not take the blue log-book, as well as the other log-book, to Webb's lodgings, not to my recollection, I did not—I never had it my possession away from Holdsworth's premises—I never went to Webb's place with the real ship's log-book, never to my knowledge—the log-book did not come into my possession when I was on board the Arequipa or the Oneida—Webb kept it—he did not give it to me, nor did I take it to Holdsworth's.
Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT ATKINSON. Q. You have known Mr. Holdsworth for some time I believe? A. Personally for two years—I think about 1864 I was captain of a brig called the Tyne—I believe it belonged to George Pryde—she was represented by Holdsworth to me as belonging to Pryde—I had never seen Pryde on any occasion—I had not been to his house prior to my taking command of the ship—I knew him after the end of the voyage, after the ship was sold—I have been to Pryde's house perhaps three or four months ago, in Catherine Street, Liverpool—I went there about the Severn, about these cases—no one sent me there—I went of my own accord—I had not placed myself in communication with Captain Downward or any police officer, neither had I seen any police officer on this subject, nor had any communication with Captain Downward before I went to Pryde's house—I had seen him at his office after the Tyne had been sold—I was not the owner of a ship called the Thomas—I had no interest in it whatever—I was captain of her—she foundered—at the time I had these interviews with Holdsworth he said that when I got to Shanghae he would send me out a letter of instructions—he did not tell me when I should get it; he said there would be a letter of instructions awaiting me at the British Consul's, telling me who would be the agents for the ship—it was at Newport he told me this, when the ship was about being cleared out—it was before that, that I had the offer of 700l. for
destroying the vessel—it struck me as somewhat strange that he should tell me I should find my instructions at Shanghae—I do not think I made any remark upon it at the time—while I was at Newport I had a quarrel with Webb, and a communication was made to Holdsworth about it—I do not think Holdsworth told me when I communicated with him that I might please myself whether I took Webb out or not—I think he said that the owners wished him to go out in the ship—Holdsworth told me to keep aloof from him—I do not recollect whether he told me that I might please myself whether I took Webb out or not—he told me that the owners wished Webb to join the ship—I do not recollect his telling me I could discharge him if I thought proper, I think not—I believe I said that I had no fault to find in him, but that he was a talking fool and very "gassy"—I do not remember his telling me that I could discharge him if I thought proper—Holdsworth asked me whether I would insure my effects for 200l., and I did so, the chronometer was a part of the effects—I brought the remnants of it back, it had been under water four days—I brought what there was of it back—I made a representation before the Magistrate with regard to my loss—I think I stated that I only saved my sextant and clothes, to the value of 15l.—I did not say anything about the chronometer or what remained of it at that time—I did not know the value of it—I went to a Magistrate to make a statement, in order to get my money—I made a written declaration to the Magistrate—I was sworn in the Court—I furnished a written declaration to the "Friend in Need" office—this letter (produced) is in my handwriting—it is dated 17th May, 1866, and is addressed to Messrs. Holdsworth & Co.—it says, "I have to inform you that I got my men on board last night"—in this letter I said I hoped to make a good run out—at the time I wrote that I did intend to make a good run out—the offer of 700l. had been made long before that—we had an ordinary gale and sprung a leak, and we were at work at the pumps every two hours—springing a leak is a serious affair, but making water is an ordinary thing—I made a protest with some other men at Pernambuco (produced)—this is only a copy—that protest was taken from the log-book—it was prepared by the Consul's clerk, from information forwarded by me, by Webb, and by the ship's crew—there were some of the crew, I believe, who signed the protest, and there were some who did not; they were all about the Consul's office—I was sworn to the truth of that protest—the protest says, "Sworn on the Holy Evangelists"—I stated in that protest that on the 29th May there were heavy gales, and that there was a violent squall that lasted an hour—that was taken from the log-book—Webb wrote it in the log-book, and that part of it was copied—it is not true—I swore that on the same day the ship was completely buried in the sea, and that the boats were adrift and everything unloosed, that the ship strained greatly, and that there was three feet of water in the well, that she was making sixteen inches of water in the hour, and that she had sprung a serious leak—all this was untrue—I also swore that the hands were constantly at the pumps, and that we passed a wreck on the sea, consisting of orange chests and a variety of seamen's effects; that was true.
Q. Did you also go on to state that at five o'clock that day the wind suddenly shifted to the north-west, and there was a violent squall, causing a fearful cross sea? A. The fact is, I swore to the whole contents of the protest—I can't exactly recollect now what the nature of the protest was—(referring to it) yes, that is right—I said that the ship was hit in all directions, that the fore scuttle was smashed, and there were heavy
cross seas—it is a fact that the vessel was hit in all directions—the decks were flooded sometimes, the fore-scuttle was smashed, and a little water got into the cabin—it is a fact that on the 29th of May the gale abated—it is not true that the pumps were almost constantly kept going—the vessel was pumped out every two hours—it is not true that we still made sixteen to eighteen inches of water, but it was sworn to by me—on the 1st of June the carpenter reported to the mate that he could hear water rushing into the forehold—the carpenter and mate went down with a light, but the carpenter told me he could hear no water—I said, "After carefully overhauling, they could not find water, although they could distinctly hear water coming in"—I swore to that, but it was untrue, like the whole of the document; not the whole, but the greater part—I said that the loss of the vessel was caused solely by the wind and sea, and not through any default or neglect of any person on board—I was sworn to that, but it is not true—I do not remember, when I came to London and law Mr. Holdsworth, his asking how the vessel was lost, I told him—he did not ask me—I told him that we had had very bad weather, and that no doubt the original leak was caused by the vessel touching the ground when leaving Newport harbour—we had touched the ground when we left Newport harbour, in going out of dock—we were drawing twentytwo feet—I don't remember telling him we were in such a state that we should have lost the ship and all hands if we had attempted to round the Cape—I did not, just before leaving the ship, order the carpenter to throw overboard the handles of the pumps—I told him to unrig them—I said if we could not save the ship nobody else should—he said she was past saving, there was ten and a half feet of water in her—the carpenter pitched one of the pump handles overboard in my sight, not by my order—I don't think I gave any order—I did not, I swear I told him to unrig the pumps—that was for the purpose of disabling the pumps, so that no one else could save her, because had she been saved it would have been evident to any person that she had been scuttled—I meant by "doing honest" to the underwriters, to take the ship to China—at the time I told the carpenter to unrig the pumps she was past recovery, a steam-engine would scarcely have taken the water out of her then—I was not drunk when I got into the gig and left the vessel—I am sure of that—I had drunk some brandy—there were three bottles drunk—I had drank the largest share—I fell asleep in the boat, and so did we all—when I was lying asleep atop of the thwarts I was awoke by the water coming up my legs—I was decidedly not drunk when I got into the boat.
MR. SOLICITOR-GENERAL. Q. Were you taken in tow by the long boat next morning? A. Next afternoon—I got from the gig into the long boat—at the time I gave the order about unrigging the pumps it was utterly impossible for any one by means of the pumps to have saved the ship, but to prevent the possibility the pumps were unrigged—the protest made at Pernambuco was drawn up by the Consul's clerk there, from my instructions, and Webb's, he was present—it was drawn from the log-book, and we both made suggestions; that was the log-book which had been altered on board the Arequipa—the crew had been waiting there two or three hours when they signed the protest—they had been there all the afternoon—an office boy read it to them—the mate and I signed the protest before the rest signed it—that part of the protest which refers to the heavy storm, when everything on deck broke away and the ship was buried in the waves, is not true, it is all wrong; but the part where some
wreck was passed, consisting of quantities of oranges, is true—I commanded the brig Tyne, to which I was appointed by Holdsworth, seven or eight months, in a voyage to Demerara—that vessel was represented to me by Holdsworth to belong to Mr. Pryde—I did not see Pryde with reference to commanding that vessel, not till after she was sold—I did not see Holdsworth at all with reference to any business of the Tyne—Holds-worth at that time was at Mil ford, and I believe he was deputed by Pryde to get the ship off—the crew were in gaol—they would not go to sea in the vessel, because she was leaky, and Holdsworth was managing the business for Pryde—he was staying at the same hotel that I stayed at in Milford—I sailed in that vessel to Demerara and brought her home, and she was sold—I was employed by Mr. Neate, of Liverpool, before I became captain of the Thomas—I became captain of the Thomas in October, 1865—nominally I was owner of that vessel—I do not know who the real owner was, unless it was Holdsworth—they promised that I should have 700l. if the Severn did not arrive safely at China—I made a statement of the real loss I had sustained—that included my chronometer—it was valued at 2l. in its damaged state—I lost some of my clothes—I saved a few things—15l. was the actual value of what I saved—I insured for 200l., and that return I made was an endeavour to regain the 200l., less the 15l.
HORATIO NELSON JONES . I shipped on board the Severn as second mate on the 10th of April, 1866—I remained on board, except on Sunday, until the 15th of May, when she sailed—I superintended the taking on board of several cases, between three and four feet long, and seventeen or eighteen inches high—Webb said they contained carbines and revolvers, and I think he said sabres—Webb would be the person to keep the log, according to the course of the ship's duty—the log was entered on a slate in the cabin—I kept a log of my own—I did that for myself, to see how to keep a log afterwards—the entries of latitude and longitude would not be made on the slate—I should work the latitude for myself—courses and distances, and the rate of sailing would be copied from the slate—in those respects the log and slate ought to be the same—in those respects the ship's log and mine ought to be the same—when it was my watch I should make the original entry on the slate, and when it was Webb's watch he would make it—I should occasionally write remarks on the slate also—I should fill up the rate of sailing on the slate—I do not know any other source from which the ship's log-book could be made than the slate—the state of the weather and so forth was written on the slate at the end of every four hours, with observations; that is, the officer of the watch wrote it down at the end of every four hours—(log-book produced)—my log was copied from a piece of paper, which was copied from the slate—the slate is not allowed to go out of the cabin—I copied it from the slate on to a piece of paper, and then took it to my berth and copied it in the book—the pieces of paper are gone, with my clothes, down to the bottom—on the 20th of May I find by Webb's account that the rate of the ship's sailing is a uniform rate of four knots, and never less than three knots an hour—that is not the fact—she went as much as six and a half knots sometimes, and sometimes as little as two—at the end of twenty-four hours all the entries on the slate were rubbed off, to make room for fresh ones—in Webb's log on the 21st of May I fined that the ship's sailing during the twenty-four hours was seventy-three knots, in fact the ship's sailing was forty-eight and a half knots in the twenty-four hours, by my own log-book—on the 22nd of May
the logs differ considerably—on the 24th of May the mate's log shows the ship steering one course the whole day—she steered two different courses by my own log—on the 25th of May the courses and the rate of sailing do not agree with my log—neither do the courses nor the winds—nor do they agree with my log on the 28th of May—that is my own log I am looking at. (Reading: "7.30 a.m., blowing hard, with clear weather; double-reefed the fore and main topsails, stowed the crossjack, and unbent the mizen-topsail. 9 a.m., stowed the mainsail and jib, set the main spencer. 11.30, blowing hard, ship taking in water fore and aft; passed a quantity of oranges and broken cases; bent, unfurled a new mizen-topsail. Noon, reefed the foresail, pumped ship every two hours.") That is all that day—the corresponding entry in point of date in the mate's log, beginning at 4 a.m., is (reading:) "4 a.m., barometer fell to 29 degrees, stowed foresail, blowing a heavy gale, which completely buried the ship by the sea. At 5 a.m. a heavy squall struck the ship, which split mizen-topsail and foretop-mast staysail, and blowed terrific for one hour; several seas, breaking on board, washed our boats adrift, and straining the ship greatly; sounded the pumps, and found three feet of water in her well; set on the pumps; pumped her out, and found she was making sixteen inches an hour, having sprang a serious leak; bands constantly at the pumps. 11.30 a.m., passed some wrecked sailors' chests, boxes of oranges, apparently not long in the water, pumps constantly going"—It could not have blown so hard as that, because it happened that while I was on deck a harpoon was fetched, in order that we might see if we could catch some of the oranges which were floating past, and if it had been blowing hard I don't think we would have cared for that—on the 29th of May the ship sailed four courses by my log—I don't see that she sailed anything at all according to the mate's log—there is one course put down in the morning, but no rate of sailing—the mate's report as to the weather on that day is: "May the 29th, Tuesday, p.m., blowing heavy gale and cloudy, with dangerous seas on ship, reaching under close-reefed topsails; shipping heavy seas and straining much. At 5 p.m. wind suddenly shifted to N.W. in a violent squall, causing a fearful cross sea, which hit the ship in all directions, flooding the decks and cabin, and smashing the fore scuttle. Wore ship, when she lay somewhat easier. Barometer rising. At 6 p.m. the gale abated; shook out a reef of topsails. Ship very uneasy, and kept the pumps almost constantly going. Split the crossjack. Midnight, more moderate, the sea going down, made all plain sail. A.M., strong breeze and clear. 4 a.m. ditto, ditto weather. 8 a.m. light winds and clear moon; ditto weather; people employed repairing damage; carpenter repairing boats. "The state of the weather by my own log was:" Tuesday, May the 29th, blowing hard, and a heavy head sea, with clear weather. 3 p.m., ditto wind and weather. 5.30, wore ship and set the mainsail and jib shortreef out of the foresail. 7 p.m., set the mizentopsail double-reefed. 9.30, short reef out of the fore and main topsails and spanker. Midnight, set the fore and maintop-gallant sails, shook reef out of the mizentopsail, and set the mizentop-gallant sail and crossjack; latitude being observation. 3.50 p.m., fresh breeze and bright clear weather; a good deal less sea on. 2 a.m., Bet the fore royal. Noon, bright clear weather, with light breeze; people winding sails; pumped the ship every two hours"—In the early part of the night before we had been constantly making more sail—she was pumped every two hours, it might be oftener than that—they would begin every two hours, and they might leave off in ten minutes, and then
they would take ten minutes in the next two hours—she was pumped twice in every four hours—the entry in the mate's log about the fearful cross seas, which hit the ship in all directions and smashed the fore scuttle, is not correct; it could not have been so, or it would have filled my cabin, which was on deck, right in the middle of the ship, where she would take in more water than where he was—on the 30th of May the wind and rate of sailing in the mate's log does not agree with mine—there is two points difference in the wind, and the rate of sailing does not agree—on the 30th of May the mate's log says, "Moderate and clear, leak seems to increase"—that is represented to be at midnight, one o'clock in the morning—the nautical day begins at noon—my entry is, "Midnight, clear weather and light winds, pumps constantly working every two hours, ship making five inches in the hour"—(the witness then read the entries of the 1st of June)—in the mate's log it states that we passed Madeira at ten that night—by my log we passed Madeira at two p.m. on the 2nd of June—on the 3rd of June the entry in the mate's log is: "P.M., fine breeze and cloudy; carpenter reported he could hear water in forwards. He and the chief officer went below with a light, but could not find it out, but could hear it plainly. The leak gradually increasing. 4 p.m., ditto weather. 8, ditto weather; all plain sail set. Midnight, ditto weather; pumps attended constantly to. A.M., fine breeze and clear. 4 a.m., ditto weather, 8 a.m., ditto; crew employed' repairing head gear; carpenters required Noon, lat., by observation, 29-30 N.; long., chron., 20-12 W."—My log says, "Sunday, June 3rd, strong breeze and clear weather; 4 p.m., dry wind and weather; 8 p.m., took in the spanker-jibs and staysails; 10, fresh breeze and strong weather; midnight, dark and cloudy, people variously employed; latitude by observation 29-8 N., long. 19-12"—The rate of sailing in the mate's log is not right, according to mine, neither latitude nor longitude; I have no entry of the carpenter's repairing—I can't say who would have the morning watch on the 3rd of June; I can tell you whose watch it was when the mate went down, because if I had been on deck the carpenter would have reported it to me, and it did not happen in my watch—I heard something of it, but I did not hear the carpenter's report, because I was below then—I saw the mate pass my cabin door with a bull's-eye lamp; where he went to I don't know, I heard afterwards. (The witness then read the several entries from the mate's log and his own up to the 14th of June, which differed materially in most respects.) If the pumps had been constantly attended to, as stated in the mate's log, on the 12th of June, I should have entered it in mine, and another thing, I should not have got any sleep, or very little; it was right in front of my door, and made an awful noise—the meaning of "pumps constantly attended to" is that they are sounded I should imagine; if that was all I should not necessarily hear it; he has not put whether they were worked at all, he only says "constantly attended to," in other places it is "constantly going"—on the 14th of June the entry in the mate's log is: "Midnight, heavy squalls; shipping water over all. A.M., light winds and cloudy; heavy cross sea on; ship making water fearfully, and rolling heavily; crew constantly at the pumps, only stopping to clear them of the small coal and cotton seed in the pumps. Noon, latitude 16-52, and longitude 28-13 west." My entry is: "Thursday, June 14th. Course, S.W. by S.; parrots, wind E.N.E.; fine clear warm weather, with light breeze; 4 p.m., ditto wind and weather; 7 p.m., light wind, part cloudy; 9 pan, fine breeze, and clear weather; midnight, ditto wind
and weather. Latitude by observation, 16-5-2; longitude, 28-11-45 W. 1 a.m., fine breeze and clear weather; 4 a.m., strong wind and mild weather 8 a.m., ditto wind and weather; noon, strong breeze, weather part cloudy. People employed fitting new upper foretopsail, foot-ropes, and securing fore lifts; one hand mending the cross jack; pumps worked every two hours, ship makes 4 to 5 inches per hour." If what is entered in the mate's log about the heavy sea, the ship making water fearfully and rolling heavily, had occurred, I should have known it and entered it; it did not happen—on the 15th of June Webb's log says: "P.M., moderate breeze and clear, thought the ship steered wild, sounded the pumps and found three feet of water in the well; set all hands at the pumps, which were frequently choked with small coal and cotton seeds. 8.20, the crew came aft and said they could not hold out much longer, and begged the captain to bear up for the nearest port. The captain told the men that he was making for Pernambuco or Bahia ever since the ship sprung a leak. Captain Layland called the officers and carpenter aft and consulted them; they were of opinion that the ship could not reach that port, but might reach Porto Baya. We then shaped our course for that port, but making small way, having too much water in her, which put her down very much by the head. Both pumps at work all night, the water still gaining on the pumps. A.M., fresh breeze under all sail, heading up for Porto Baya, but making little way; 9 a.m., the crew came aft, being exhausted and alarmed, requested the captain to put the boats, as they were afraid that the ship might founder at any moment The captain then again consulted his officers and carpenter, and they were unanimously of opinion that the ship could not reach Porto Baya, and that it would be advisable to get the boats out. Put water and provisions, in them. The chief mate and ten hands in the long boat, second mate with five hands in the first cutter left the ship at dusk, and lay to. 7 p.m., captain, carpenter, and boat's crew then left the ship, there being ten feet nine inches of water in the ship, and ship settling fast by the head. The captain, carpenter, and boat's crew then left the ship, all three boats having a lamp on board. Captain ordered them to keep lamps burning and boats to keep together and make sail for Porto Baya, bearing about east-south-east, distance 2.50, latitude at noon 16.10 north, longitude chron, 27.50 W. "I have only half a day's log in my book:" Friday, June 15th, fine weather and strong breeae. 4 p.m., sounded the pumps as usual and found twenty inches in her; pumped for half an hour again; sounded twenty-one inches. 5 p.m., 22 inches, all hands pumping. 8 p.m., thirty-one inches. Half-past 8, hands came aft and requested the captain to bear up for the nearest port; hauled ship close to the wind and bore up for St. Vincent. Midnight, thirty-nine inches in her." That is all I have here—the same sort of weather continued the whole of the 15th—I cannot tell what time I left the ship finally—just about dusk I had gone into the cutter before I finally left, and was there five or six hours—I went into the cutter in the first place between two and three o'clock—it was part of my duty to get the provisions into the cutter—I did not see any attempt made to discover where the leak was—there was nothing in the weather to account for the ship making water so suddenly as that—I recollect coming alongside the ship to take the boy Jones on board—that was after I had gone into the cutter to superintend the provisioning of it—I observed something in the outer planking of the ship's stern, on the port quarter—I had been away from the ship about two hours and a half—I left the vessel finally about dusk—I
began to provision the cutter about two or three o'clock—it was after I had been away two hours or so that I came back to fetch the boy Jones—it was about five o'clock when I took Jones on board—what I saw was some new wood on the port quarter—it was a small piece of stuff sticking out from the port quarter (pointing out the spot on the model)—it was about here, just above the copper, on the very far aft, on the larboard quarter—it was just as if a piece of wood was broken and not broken off clear, but left sticking out, it stuck out like a splinter of wood—I only saw it once—I did not look for it again—just as I passed I saw it under the quarter, the boat was under way then—I can't say positively whether it was always in view, or whether it was only in view by the pitch of the vessel, I should say only when she rose—I should imagine it was below the ordinary water line—I am not sure, I did not take notice—I was steering the boat at the time—my boat was the last to cast off from the ship—it was about dusk when I left her—when I left the ship she was settling—I imagine that she could not stay long afloat—I could not tell how long she would remain afloat—if she should give a heavyish pitch and send all the water forward, she would go down directly—I should say that the longest time she would remain afloat after I left her would be not more than an hour or an hour and a half—I did not actually see her sink—I could not see her 500 yards off—I lost sight of the two other boats that night, and was on the sea from Friday until the Tuesday morning following, when our boat was picked up by her Majesty's ship Challenger—I was taken to Rio—I was about three or four weeks on board the frigate—I went to the British Consul at Rio, and handed in my log—I told him it was not the ship's log, but one I had made myself—I was sent home in a steamer—I made a statement of what I knew about the loss of the vessel six weeks after I came back—when I was on board the Severn I slept in a house abaft the mainmast, and Webb and the captain slept in the cabin—Webb's door was generally locked when he was in the cabin—there was a sort of chimney pipe, by which one could see into Webb's cabin if they were disposed, but he put canvas over the top of it, and we could not see then.
Cross-examined by MR. KEMP. Q. How long, have you been to sea? A. Pretty well all my life, I think it was in 1859 I went first—I never was in a coasting vessel—I am twenty-two years old—I have not been out before as second mate—I have as another mate—I am sure that my log-book is accurate, as far as I know—I am not aware that I was constantly making mistakes—I understand navigation, or I should not hold a certificate—I was on board thirty days before we went out—I kept a harbour log while in the roads—this log begins on May 13th and ends June 15th—it is a matter of opinion whether there are mistakes in the longitude and latitude—Webb has never told me that I have made wrong entries on the slate, nor has the captain, nothing of the kind was said during the voyage—the pieces of paper on which I copied from the slate are lost, they went down in the ship—that model is not exactly correct—I cannot see my cabin, it is cut off—the mate's cabin is represented there—there were two windows in that cabin, people could see from the deck through the window, but there always happened to be a curtain in front of it—there was generally a curtain in front of it—it was always there, and generally covering the glass—it was not always drawn—it was always drawn when he was there—I was taken to Rio and made a protest there—that protest was correct—when I got to Rio I handed in my log-book to the Consul—the Consul or his clerk made the protest about the
vessel from my log-book, and I afterwards signed that as correct and swore to it—I suppose, as it is there, that I swore that on the 28th of the month we encountered a strong gale, accompanied by a heavy sea, on which the ship strained and laboured very much and commenced a leak—I do not remember what I did swear, not sufficiently to remember the dates—there was a gale of wind—the entry on the 28th of the month is a correct account—I got into the cutter on the port side of the vessel—it was on the port side I saw the pieces of wood sticking up—I did not call attention to them at the time—I did not see them when I first got into the cutter—it was not in the night, it was in the afternoon, about three o'clock, when I got into the cutter—the weather was fine then—we could not see the vessel at 500 yards when we left her—it was about five o'clock, I should say, when I came back to fetch the boy Jones—the mate gave me directions to go into the boat—I don't think I saw him at the time I saw the hole—I do not know where he was.
Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. Q. When you found the water coming in did you take the trouble to go and see where the leak was? A. No, because I did not think I could get down—I did not try or direct any one else to do so—I had no business to, unless I was told.
Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT ATKINSON. Q. In your log for the 28th of May you state that at half-past eleven it was blowing hard and the ship taking in water fore and aft; what do you mean by that, how was she taking in water? A. Throwing it in over her bows—sometimes it did so, wetting the deck—it was blowing a gale then, you may call it a gale—it was blowing a gale, a heavy gale—die word "over" is the same thing as "fore and aft."
MR. GIFFARD. Q. Did you give the Consul at Rio or his clerk any instructions besides handing in your log? A. I gave this log and a statement which I made on board the frigate—I was ill when I was taken up, and the captain told me to make a statement, and that and the log was all I gave to the Consul—I think Mr. Lewis has the statement.
MR. SERJEANT ATKINSON. Q. You say in that statement that after you had been to sea a week or ten days you experienced a gale of wind which strained the vessel very much and caused her to leak three inches in the hour? A. Yes—I did not see the protest made at Pernambuco before I reached England. (The protest was here put in and read.) That statement was made without the aid of my log, but it is true in substance—there is a great deal in it which is not in my log, and there are many things which I had not time to put down in my log—I supplied them from memory, and believe them to be true, while I was ill in bed—I did not make any entry in my log after leaving the Severn.
WILFRED HOLLAND . I was a seaman on board the Severn—I joined her on the 7th of May as second steward—I saw Holdsworth on board at Newport—I saw him talking to Webb—I was about the cabin a great deal in my capacity as second steward—there was very fine living on board—I was on board about six weeks before she left the dock—I recollect twelve cases being brought on board—I and George Barrett and the second mate, Jones, helped to carry them on board—we carried them from the head of the docks to the ship, and put them in the store-room aft, they did not appear very light or very heavy—they did not seem as heavy as if they contained iron—I heard something rattle inside, and we asked each other whether it was glass or earthenware—I was brought up as an iron turner—I posted a good many letters at Newport for Webb-some were addressed to
Mr. Berwick, the Willows, Liverpool—there were some to London, but I don't know the names—I recollect taking two or three augers and a hatchet out of the carpenter's tool chest by the direction of Webb, and taking them into his berth—they were three or four feet long, they would bore a hole about an inch and a half or two inches each—I recollect leaving Newport—it was my first voyage in that ship; it was my first voyage altogether—I slept in the carpenter's room—I recollect upsetting some turpentine, and it ran along by the lamp and caught fire—I ran on deck and gave an alarm, and the boatswain and others came down, threw some oakum on the flame, and put it out; that was about a week before the ship went down—it was very fine weather on the 14th of June—I remember being called to the pump about four, or ten minutes to four—there was a leak on the 15th; we ceased pumping the vessel about twelve o'clock—I never saw the captain or mate do anything for the purpose of saving the ship—I recollect the long boat being put out—I do not recollect much of what took place afterwards—I went into the captain's gig by direction of the captain, and was afterwards passed into the long boat by order of Mr. Webb—Webb did not give me any directions—it was about half-past seven or eight in the evening when I left the ship for the last time, she was very deep in the water then—I was in the end taken on board the Arequipa to Pernambuco—whilst I was on board there Webb told me I was to listen to the men, and if I heard them say anything about the sinking of the Severn I was to let him know—after he had given me these instructions he called me aft, and asked me if I had heard anything—I said, "No," but he said that I had, only that I would not let him know anything about it—I had seen the log-book in the ship's cabin a good many times—I saw it in the cabin, and afterwards in the long boat, after we had left the ship—I afterwards saw it in a tin box, after we arrived in London, at the mate's lodgings—I was lodging with Webb at the time, in Raven Street—that was after we arrived in London from Southampton—this is not the log-book of the Seven, (produced)—it is much larger than the log-book of the Severn, and much thicker and newer-looking, and the colour is not the same—it was a deal lighter at the back, and the morocco came further on to the paper.
Cross-examined by MR. KEMP. Q. On the day the turpentine caught fire did Webb come down and assist in putting it out? A. He came down, but it was all over then—when I left the ship first it was in the cutter, then I returned to the ship, and went in the long boat—I never passed under the port side of the stern of the ship, I never passed so far down—I signed some papers at Pernambuco, but I did not know what they were—to my knowledge, I was not sworn to the protest.
Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT ATKINSON. Q. After you came to England, when was the first time you were spoken to about this matter? A. In the house where we lived in Raven Street, No. 32—we were living with Mrs. Evans—no one but Mr. Webb, the mate, was living with me—no one on the part of the prosecution spoke to me there—I saw the account in the newspapers—that was the first I knew about it, and then I spoke to my grandfather, Edward Wilson—it was a few weeks after that I had a letter from Liverpool from Mr. Murphy—I did as he asked me, I went to see him in Liverpool, and he sent me home again, telling me I might be wanted in two or three weeks, in which case I should be sent for—Mr. Murphy paid my expenses, for anything I know—I went to Captain Downward's office in London—I used to go there often to get letters which were sent there for me—I made a statement to him, and I got money from
him—I got fire or ten shillings a week—he gave me two or three shillings at a time—perhaps it would amount to ten or twelve shillings a week—I have been, on the case about two months—Mr. Downward's clerk paid the money.
MR. GIFFARD. Q. Did you make the same statement to Captain Downward that you have made here to-day? A. Yes, something similar—I had other money, besides what I received from him, but I was not earning money in any way.
Thursday, January 31st
HENRY KELLY . I am a seaman, and in May last I shipped in the Severn—I was in the mate Webb's watch—I recollect some new sails being made for the boats about a day or so after we left Newport—I recollect the boats being caulked, and masts and spars being made for them—the carpenter did that—after that was done the boats were seaworthy, as far as I know—it is not usual to commence such work immediately after sailing from a port—I saw Webb the mate and the second mate fitting the rigging for the boats—I also saw the mate strapping the water-kegs—the boats were finished previously to the sails being finished—I believe the last sail was finished about twelve o'clock on the day she sprung a leak, the 14th of June—on that day my watch was from twelve o'clock to four—I cannot say who gave orders as to pumping the ship—there must have been orders given—I did not hear the order—another man sung out to me to pump the ship, and I went to the pumps there and then, about a quarter-past two—there were four of us pumping—Webb ought to be walking the poop the whole of the four hours, except the time he was dining—I never saw him at all until we were at the pumps—it was very fine weather—I did not see any reason for the ship making water—I assisted in the pumping—the water gained on the pumps—at six o'clock there was about two feet ten inches of water in the hold; I am not positive, I cannot say—I saw the carpenter sounding the depth from time to time—I saw Webb about five o'clock—he came forward to the pumps, and looked rather excited—when he was told the ship was making water he said it was all right; if he went to hell he had plenty of friends there—I recollect preparations being made for filling the water-kegs—that was between four and six o'clock—I did not see them filled—at eight o'clock the water still gained on the pumps—I remained pumping from eight to ten the next morning, till it was our watch below—then our watch got the boats over the side—at that time it was very moderate weather, very fine—the water still gained on the pumps—I recommended the crew being divided into crews, but it was not done—I think we breakfasted about eight o'clock that morning, perhaps earlier—the boats' tackle was got ready for the boats between eight and ten o'clock in the morning—I was at the helm—the boats were got over the side between ten and twelve o'clock, with the exception of the long boat, which was got over after—I was relieved at twelve, and went to dinner—the long boat was lowered directly after we refused to pump any longer—that was about one o'clock, when Webb, the mate, came down and said we were drifting away from land all the time, then we refused to pump any longer—eventually I got into the long boat—it was from about half-past two to three o'clock that I got into the long boat—I recollect the long boat being astern of the ship—at that time I noticed two holes in her stern—they appeared to me to have been made from the inside, as the outside was
splintered—the holes were from an inch and a half to two inches—they were in like a straight line—one might be a little lower than the other—. they were under the stern, about a foot and a half or two feet above the coppering, on the port side—I saw them three times at least; it was only when the ship plunged very heavily by the head that you could see them—Webb was at that time looking over the stern, almost right over where the holes were—I reported the holes—I said, "Two b----big holes in the stern"—Webb said, "Oh! it is nothing; it must have been the London carpenters that left a couple of trenails there," and that he would like to have a rope round their necks, towing them after the ship—the holes seemed capable of being plugged—if you bore a hole you can plug it—I recollect the carpenter getting into the long boat at half-past seven—I originally went into the long boat, but at that time I had got into the captain's gig—that may have been about four hours after I had spoken to Webb—Webb disappeared immediately after I spoke to him, and the first I saw of him after that was when he was getting over the side into the long boat—that might hare been a quarter of an hour after, or perhaps less—Webb took command of the long boat, and we cruised about the head of the vessel, but never went near the stern—we never went near enough to see the holes again—we never went nearer aft than the main gangway—I recollect the three boats going away—it was getting dark at the time we parted—the ship was then rather deep about the head, her fore-chains were in the water—the gig lost sight of the long boat—during the night I showed a dark lantern a couple of dozen times, and was never answered by either boats—in the end we were picked up by the Arequipa—while on board the Arequipa I had two or three conversations with Webb—the first conversation was the day after we had played a trick upon a foreigner who was there, and who told the mate we had robbed him of a box of matches—the mate called me aft and asked me about it, and in talking I happened to mention that I saw two holes in the stern—I said a man said he saw two holes in the stern—he started and said, "Don't you believe it, for the ship was top-booted"—by "a man" I meant myself—what made me say that was that he said he would put some of them where they would not get out so easy when we got to Pernambuco—I then said I had seen them myself—he said if he was me he would say no more about it, for if I was to say it when we arrived in England he should prosecute me or anybody else that would say that; that if it cost him 100l. he would do it—the next time I spoke to him he asked me who broke into the spirit-room—I said I did not know, but, as all command was given up of the ship, and everybody was left to do as they liked, he could not be surprised if spirits were taken—he said, "Did you take any?"—I said, "Yes, I collared a bottle that was about half full of rum, and if there had been any more I would have taken it too"—he said, "Well, I don't blame you, I should have done it myself, but it is the boatswain I want to get hold of"—he might not have said those very words, but it meant the same anyhow—I said, "I know nothing about the boatswain, all I know is that I got half a bottle of rum," I did not care whether he knew it or not—the next conversation I had with him was in Pernambuco—the first time was on the night we left the ship—the second time was when he came to me drunk at Pernambuco, in the Consul's office—he said, "Kelly, if I was you I would apologise to the captain for what you have said, because I told him"—I said, "That is very gentlemanly of you any way"—he said, "He told the Consul, and the Consul gave him a letter to the Magistrates in England to prosecute you"—I said,
"Well, I have said nothing that I know of to induce an apology, but if I have said anything I will apologise to him"—he said, "Well, I have interceded with him, and if you do apologise to him the matter will be allowed to drop"—I said, "Thank you"—so I went to the captain; the first time he was busy and would not speak to me—there was plenty to eat on board—there was no allowance of anything—there was far more than we had signed for, far more variety, in fact we lived in the forecastle a deal better than some captains—rations were not served out, we got them whenever we liked—I saw the ship's log-book on the captain's table—I carried it up and left it on the poop—the cover was blue—the book produced is nothing like it—I rather think the log-book of the Severn was rather thicker than this.
Cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH. Q. When you left the vessel was it in the gig or the long boat? A. The long boat—there was with me a sea. man named Napham, Bray, Ruperto, a young man named Davis, another named Haynes—I can't tell you the whole crew, there were ten or eleven I think—I can't say exactly how many of them are now in England, I think about four or five, there is Bray, Davis, Napham, and Ruperto—I have seen some of the others who were with me in the long boat—since I arrived in England I saw a lad named Barrett and Thompson, the boatswain, and Haynes—they were in the boat with me when I saw the holes in the stern of the ship—no, they were in the gig with me, but previous to getting in the gig I was in the long boat—the three men who were standing nearest to me in the long boat when I saw the holes were Gray, Napham, and Ruperto; there might have been half a dozen more for aught I know—anybody in the boat could have seen the holes if they liked to fix their eyes on the stern, or if they looked at the moment the ship hove, most decidedly they could—the holes were bored through the sheathing of the vessel, not the copper—the top-booting is above the wood sheathing, over the copper—I think they were about a foot and a half above the copper—it might have been more, or it might have been less—it could not be any more than a couple of inches either way—I know what the trenails are, they are made of oak—some of the outside planks are made fast with trenails, and some with bolts—I don't know how the Severn was built—the trenails are long bolts of wood about an inch or an inch and a half in diameter, and are made use of for the purpose of holding together the outer and inner planks—I don't know anything about the length of them, I never saw a ship built, I have seen them in the process of being built—I know that trenails, are used, but that is all I know—at the time I was in the long boat and saw these holes the weather was very fine indeed—you might say almost a calm, and you would not exaggerate much—there was hardly any weather to blow out a candle on deck all the time—we had a bit of a puff, but I considered it nothing—I have been in ships where we have carried topgallant sails in a heavier breeze, when we reefed the studding sails—we reefed the topsails when the gale was over, and the only good I saw in reefing them was to keep her from pitching too heavily—it was on Monday morning when we came on deck at eight o'clock that we reefed the topsails—it might have been a heavy gale in your eye—you are to understand me that the topsails were not reefed till Monday morning between eight and ten, and I went to the wheel from ten to twelve, and I hardly moved a spoke of the wheel—the topsails were reefed in the morning and shook out in the evening—we left Newport in the middle of the week, and I think the reefing took place on the Monday week following—I saw some
orange boxes float by, and, to give the mate something to put in his log, I told him there was a sailor's chest; that was a bit of a sensational thing—it was perfectly fictitious, or it was a lie if you like—we are not all immaculate—now and then I do indulge in a little bit of fiction if I think it will cause a bit of a sensation or a fight, but I am not on my oath on all those occasions you know—I wanted to ship on board this vessel as able seaman, but the captain said I was looking too young—I represented myself as an able seaman, and asked to be shipped as such—the qualification of an able seaman is according to the intellect of the man—I had been on board a vessel previously as an able seaman, and since—the captain would not receive me as such, because I had no discharge with me—the last vessel I was in as an able seaman was the Constitution—I did not get my discharge from her—they never give discharges out of that vessel, she is an American ship—they did not give me a discharge, nor the rest of the crew either—I was not on board the ship after the boat in which Webb was was pushed finally from the ship—I was in the boat all the time until the captain called the mate back; the mate went on board, and he and the captain went into the cabin—I followed them on board—I went and filled a bottle of water—he told me to go into the boat again—I did so, and never left till I went in the gig—I could not say how long I had been in the boat before I went on board the Severn again—I was on board the Severn about three minutes before I went into the boat again—I can swear that, because I had only time to go forward into the forecastle, take a bottle out, and fill it with water—the mate saw me at the barrel and said, "Go into the boat, Kelly"—I said, "All right, sir"—I was going back again, and he made me come back again and go in the boat—the crew of the Arequipa were not all English—I do not know whether the captain was—he spoke English; they all spoke English, but there were three or four Dutchmen on board—I do not remember how long the captain and crew of the Arequipa were at Pernambuco while I was there—I think I saw a couple of the crew once, and the captain once or twice—I never signed the protest—I was at the English Consul's office at Pernambuco, but I never heard of a protest being signed till I came to England—I told Webb that I took half a bottle of rum—he did not threaten to prosecute me for stealing some of the seamen's clothes—he said he would fetch me before the Consul—he said I stole them, but it was in consequence of the man having no bag to put his clothes in, and I put them into my bag—I was asked to take care of them; every man in the ship knew I had them, and when we got to Pernambuco I gave them up—Webb never threatened to prosecute me if I did not give them up—he asked me to leave the things in the office and I said I would, and I took them out of the bag and put them on the counter—he came in and said, "Where is the bag?" and, "Does any one know the boy's clothes?"—Webb did not have me before the Consul and charge me with detaining and stealing the clothes—it was not then that I gave them up—the only person I saw at the Consul's office was a boy of fifteen—nothing was said by him about the clothes—I never saw the Consul—there was no one present on any occasion when I had a conversation with Webb—I was spoken to in reference to this matter about six weeks after coming to England—I had been to sea again, and on account of heavy weather we had to put back to Queenstown, and there I was asked to come to London—I do not know who asked me—I do not know where I went when I did come up—I went next morning to Lloyd's—since I have been in London I have received 18s. a week
for board, and 1l. for wages—my wages were 3l. 15s. a month on board ship.
MR. SOLICITOR-GENKRAL. Q. When you were on board your rations were found you? A. Yes, there was no expense at all on board—out of the money I receive here I have to pay for board and lodging—I have not had a ship since the one at Queenstown—I am waiting till this trial its over—the boy's clothes were put into my bag on the 14th of June, when we were packing up our clothes for the purpose of leaving the vessel—Decimus Jones was the owner of the clothes—he asked me to put his clothes into my bag, and it was done in the presence of everybody in the boat—he went in the boat to Rio, and was not at Pernambuco at all—I was an ordinary seaman on board the Severn—I took my trick at the wheel—I do not know what my wages were—I never had any—it was only a month to a day that we were lost—I was only paid the advance money—it was directly after dinner that the long boat was put over the side, and when she dropped astern to rig her I got in, about two hours and a half after—she was moored astern by a line—the long boat was nearly full, but I cannot say how many there were—when I got on board she was close to the mizen rigging—she was left to drop astern—I was standing with my face to the stern, and saw the two holes—that was about five minutes after I was in the boat—it might have been a quarter of an hour after that the mate got into the long boat, and we cruised ahead—I don't know how long it was after that that we came alongside again and Webb and, I got on board—we had been cruising a long time; it might have been an hour, or less, or more—it was about half-past seven when the captain left the ship—that might have been two or three hours after Webb last left the vessel—during that time we were in the long boat, trying her sailing qualities, Webb was in her then—the strength of the gale was on Sunday—it was over before the Monday—reefing topsails might have eased her pitching after the gale was over—it is sometimes done for that purpose—they were shaken out between eight and ten in the evening—the top-booting is the same as the wooden sheathing—it is the wood which goes over the outer skin of the vessel—if trenails are used for joining the planks together the top-booting would be over the head of the trenails—the Arequipa was lying in the bay at Pernambuco, a good quarter of an hour's pull from land—I remained at Pernambuco three days I think, and the Arequipa was still in the bay when I left.
HENRY BRAT . I am a seaman—I shipped on board the Severn at New port as an able seaman—the weather up to the 14th of June was pretty tine—we had a breeze on—the weather was fine on the 14th—I remember the ship springing a leak about a fortnight after we left Newport—the pumps were used after that every two hours—the pumps sucked at the end of the two hours—I remember on the 14th of June asking the boatswain for some seizing stuff, about two o'clock—it was Webb's watch—the stuff would have to be got from him—seizing stuff is a small rope—when I asked the boatswain for it he went to fetch it, but did not bring it back—about half an hour after I had asked for it I was ordered to the pumps—I went to the wheel about three o'clock on that day—the pumps sucked in about ten minutes—I remained at the wheel till four o'clock—during that time the ship was in a very good state—she was not suffering or labouring at all—I was on deck from two till four o'clock that afternoon—I can't say whether I saw Webb or not—about nine that night Webb came to the forecastle door, he called me;
he said it was a bad job the ship springing a leak like that (the springing of the leak took place about four o'clock that afternoon), and I had better go aft to the captain to know what he intended to do with her—he said, "We are a long way from land"—I and the other men went to the captain about two or three minutes after he told us to go—the captain was in the cabin with Webb—Webb came out and asked what we wanted—I said we wanted to see the captain—he went in to tell the captain—the captain came out and asked us what we wanted—Webb was there too—we asked the captain, in Webb's presence, what he meant to do with the ship—he said he knew what to do with the ship, and he did not want us to come and tell him—he said he was running for the nighest land—we asked him how far it was, and he said a thousand miles—we asked him if there wad no land nearer than that—he said there was to windward, and we told him we had better hold for the nearest land—he told us to go forward, for he knew what to do with the ship—the vessel was hauled off about half an hour afterwards—I think she steered to the southward—the last time the men pumped was twelve o'clock the next day—when we left the Severn we went in the long boat—we first got into the long boat about three o'clock in the afternoon, to rig her out, to put the masts and sails in—while I was in the long boat it dropped astern, and I saw two holes in the stern of the Severn—I saw them about half-past three, I suppose about half an hour after I got into the long boat—the holes were about ten or twelve inches above the copper, and six or seven feet from the stern port—they were on the port side—I saw Webb on the poop at the time I saw the holes—I sang out to him that there were two holes in the vessel's side—I sang out so as Webb could hear, but he did not say anything, he went forward—I saw the holes two or three times when I was in the long boat—they appeared to be auger holes—they appeared to have been made from the inside, because the splinters where the auger came through were hanging from the ship—you could see the wood looking fresh where the splinters came off—there was no tar on them, I am sure of that—I know what is the top-booting of a vessel—these holes were through the top-booting—I got the long boat up to the port side of the vessel, and Webb went into the boat, and we cruised about—after I had called Webb's attention to the holes we did not go astern of the vessel again—we went a good bit off the stern—we did not go near enough to see the holes—Webb commanded the boat—after we had been cruising about for two hours we returned to the vessel—Webb went out of the boat for an hour I should say—after his return we stopped alongside for a bit, and then went away for good—we went to Pernambuco, and I came home in the Edith Marian—I did not see any cause, except the holes, for the ship making so much water, as we had fine weather all the time—the living on board was very good.
Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT ATKINSON. Q. You say you had fine weather all the time; had you not some rough weather about a fortnight after you left Newport? A. We had a strong breeze, and we reefed the foretopsail while the breeze was on—we did not want to do so after it was over—the ship made water after that, and we pumped oftener.
WILLIAM NAPHAM . I am a seaman—I shipped on board the Severn on the 15th of May, just before she left Newport—I shipped as able seaman—I had at times to pump and do other work on board the ship—on the 14th of June there was nothing in the weather to cause the sinking of the ship as far as I know—I remember it being said that she had sprung a leak—I
was on the poop when I heard it said—it was my watch, and I was attending to some sails belonging to the long boat—I was ordered to get those sails ready just after we had left the Channel—I was just finishing the main sail, that was the last sail to be done, but I had finished two others before—the long boat was ready for sea at the time, that is as soon as the sails were bent—when I heard of the leak I was ordered to the pumps—I continued to pump from four o'clock to half-past five, when I went to tea, as I had to relieve the man at the wheel at six o'clock, I believe that the water still gained—they continued pumping until eight o'clock, and then we went aft to the captain, to know what he was going to do—I had seen Webb before I went aft to the captain—he came into the forecastle and called out for Bray—I did not hear him speak to Bray—the forecastle on that ship was on deck—it was a house on deck—after they came back Webb said something to me and the crew, and in consequence of what he said I and several of the crew went aft to the captain's cabin, Webb came out and brought the captain out, I asked the captain what he was going to do, and had some conversation about the distance from land—he said he knew what to do with the ship, and we went back and started at the pumps again, we worked at the pumps till eight o'clock the next morning, the leak was still gaining, and we went aft again to know what the captain was going to do—they would not let us do anything at first; then the mate came forward and told the boatswain to get the tackles ready for getting the long boat out, that was on the morning of the 15th, the tackles were got ready in order to get the long boat out—it was about half-past one or two when the long boat was lowered over the side, the other two boats were astern at the time—everything was ready for the rigging of the other boats, the sails and masts were in the boats ready to rig them—the water had not been put on board at that time—about three o'clock I got into the long boat myself, after all the provisions were passed in by the direction of the mate; she then dropped astern in order to be rigged; after she had dropped astera my attention was drawn to the stern of the Severn, by Henry Bray—I observed two holes in her stern as the ship heaved in the water, on the port side, I could only see them now and then, they were below the water's edge, and as the ship rose and fell we could see them—I should judge, from the appearance of the holes, that they were fresh, because we saw the splinters outside—I should think they were not more than eleven or twelve inches above the copper—I have heard what the sheathing or top-booting of the ship is—I cannot tell how high she was top-booted—the holes were through the top-booting—after I had seen the holes I sung out, I saw Webb looking over the taffrail—I sung out about the holes, three or four of us sung out, Webb went away from the taffrail after we had sung out, but where he went I cannot say—after we told him what we saw he said the carpenters in London had left out two trenails, I saw Webb again two or three minutes after, be appeared aft, and ordered the boat to be hauled up alongside—he came on board the boat then, and we cruised about, but we never went astern again, we went all about the ship for a mile or a mile and a half until the captain hailed us to come back again—the sails were all fitted in the boat when we were cruising about, she had taken in her water, she took it in from the mizen rigging of the ship, she had all her provisions in then, the provisions were put in just after twelve and the water at the same time—when we came alongside after cruising about the mate got out and remained in the vessel for some
time and we went away—we came alongside again and the mate came into the boat again—he went to the vessel after that, and then the captain came on board—the rest of the crew were out of the ship then—the captain got into the gig—we left the ship finally that night between seven and eight o'clock, her fore chains were just in the water at that time—I did not see her sink, I did not see her afterwards.
Cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH. Q. Since you came to London did you meet one of your shipmates at the Alhambra? A. I did, Mr. Webb, the mate—I cannot tell what time it was or what day—it was before he was taken into custody—it would be the latter end of October—I had some conversation with him—there was nobody else in our company who could hear the conversation—there was nobody listening as I know of—we had a little talk about this Severn business—before I met him at the Alhambra I had been in London a week or two—I was not at Liverpool—I came from Newport to London—before meeting Webb at the Alhambra I had been to Captain Downward's office several times—Mr. Downward fetched me to London, and I had to go there—we are maintained now by Mr. Downward—if he was not to keep us we would have to go to sea again—I get 1l. a week and my board paid for me—that is not much more than we get at sea—we get 2l. 15s. a month, and we have no board and lodging to find out of that—I do not know that any interview I had with Mr. Downward lasted more than half an hour—of course Mr. Downward took down what I knew about the Severn, just the same as I state it here, nothing more—I told Webb, when I was at the Alhambra, I had been to Captain Downward's office once or twice—I did not tell him that Captain Downward wanted me to say a good deal more than I had told him—I did not tell him I could say a good deal more than I had said—I did not tell him that Captain Downward showed me a plan of the vessel and asked me where the holes were put, or that he showed me a model—I had nothing to do with the making of the model—I have seen the model before it came to Court—I saw it at Captain Down-ward's office—all the conversation I had with Captain Downward about the model was, he asked me what sort of model it was, how the stern represented that of the Severn, and I said it was a very good model—I told Webb, when I met him at the Alhambra, that I had informed Captain Downward where he could find Kelly, because he left Newport the day we came to London for Halifax, in a barque—I did not know where Jones was, because he was not in the same boat with me—he was picked up by a man-of-war called the Challenger—I did not tell Webb that one of the men was at Captain Downward's as his gardener—I knew nothing at all about it—I do not know anything about one of my fellow seamen being employed at Mr. Downward's private house while in London—I never heard that before to-day.
MR. SOLICITOR-GENERAL. Q. Who was it brought you up, or how came you up from Newport? A. One morning while at Newport a gentleman came there by the name of Pryde—it was not Captain Downward who came down—I received. instructions, and I came up—I saw Webb at the Alhambra about a fortnight or three weeks after—at the time I saw Webb he was at large—I had not seen any model at all then—I have not seen the model in the office since the prisoners have been in custody.
REECE DAVIS . I shipped as an ordinary seaman on board the Severn—I recollect the ship springing a leak on the 14th of June—it was fine weather then—I helped to pump until twelve o'clock on the 15th—it was much about the same kind of weather on the 15th—I recollect getting into
the long boat about two o'clock, I think, on the 15th—I recollect the long boat dropping astern—after it dropped astern I heard some of the men call out—I looked, and I saw two holes in the stern, one with a plug in, as I thought then; they were on the port side of the stern—what made me think there was a plug in was I saw something sticking out—I did not see anything with reference to the other hole but splinters outside—at the time I saw these holes I saw the mate on the poop—he was on the poop when the men called out—I did not hear him say anything—he went forward as soon as some of us shouted out—I recollect Webb afterwards coming into the long boat.
Cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH. Q. About a week or so before you abandoned her there was a gale of wind, was there not? A. Yes, but not much of a gale—we reefed the topsails—the gale lasted somewhere about twelve hours—we commenced to reef in the morning—the gale had been blowing about an hour or so before we reefed the topsails—the gale did not spring up sharp—it sprang up in the morning with sunrise, and increased towards the middle of the day—I have been to sea about four years—the topsails were close-reefed—I do not remember how long they were kept close-reefed—they were not taken out of reef before the evening—we do not keep the sails reefed longer than we can help—it was about eight o'clock in the morning they were reefed—I remember they shook out the reefs at three o'clock the following morning—I went aloft to help to unreef the sails myself—I should think that the gale was highest about twelve o'clock in the day—the topsails were close-reefed—the foretopsail was not taken in altogether—the maintopsail was not taken in—the mainsail was hauled up altogether—the maintopsail was not taken in altogether—the foresail was reefed—I don't'think the spanker was reefed; I am not sure—I never saw any other vessel in sight—it was about nine or ten days after the gale that an alarm was given that the ship had sprung a leak—it was more than that, I first heard she had sprung a leak on the 14th of June—she was making water ever since we left England—we had to pump her out every twelve hours at first; but after we had the bit of a breeze we had to pump her every two hours—from that time we pumped her every two hours—the ship was not hove to during the breeze; I am quite sure of that—we did not heave to till we left her—I suppose I know the meaning of a ship being hove to—I mean to say the ship was not hove to during this gale—after the gale I saw some boxes—I cannot tell what was in them—it was just after the gale commenced I saw them floating about—I went to Pernambuco—I was one of the men in the Oneida—I remained at Pernambuco after the mate and captain left for three weeks—I first made the statement I have now made after I came to England—the first time I told any one what I have been telling you here to-day was when I told Captain Downward in London—I arrived at Liverpool on the 4th of November—I had been in England about a fortnight before I came to see Captain Downward in London—I had been talking to Murphy about it at Liverpool—he brought me up—he was not a seaman or a lawyer—he is connected with a nautical establishment at Liverpool, a Sailors' Home—I talked to him about it at Liverpool.
MR. SOLICITOR-GENERAL. Q. You say you had spoken to Murphy about the matter at Liverpool? A. Yes, and after that I came up to London and saw Captain Downward—I told him what I knew about it—I don't recollect exactly how soon after I saw the boxes we came abreast of Madeira.
WILLIAM THOMPSON . I was the boatswain on board the Severn—we started from Newport on the 15th of May—I could not examine the hull of the vessel when I went on board, because I was drunk—I examined the hull at twelve o'clock that night, when I got sober—I found it in good condition, but she was a total wreck from the hull upwards—her masts and sails were in bad condition—she was not fit to go to sea—everything was out of order—her masts were right enough, but the mainyard was bad, and the jibboom and rigging were much out of order—the sails were old; they were not fit to go to sea—I called Webb's attention to the jibboom when we were going out, and shoved my knife (a sheathed one) into it up to the handle—I called both Webb's and the carpenter's attention to it—Webb said it would do—we. went to sea with that jibboom—first of all we pumped the vessel every twelve hours—in the Bay of Biscay we had a good topsail breeze—I have not been at sea thirty-seven years without learning what a topsail breeze is—it was a common breeze of wind, nothing particularly out of the way—nothing more than any ship could carry a good topgallant sail with—the sails were reefed in that breeze—I cannot tell how long we had been at sea when the breeze came on—I knew of a leak in the vessel before the 14th of June—I could not say the day of the month I first heard of any leak, but we had to pump her out every four hours—first every twelve hours, then every four hours, and then every two hours—the pumping every two hours went on until such time as the boats were finished—I remember the day before actually leaving the ship—I do not know of any extra pumping on that day—I was fitting the rigging on the day the ship went down—I was fitting the rigging on the 14th of June for the topsail yards of the ship—I had been working from six o'clock, or perhaps half-past five in the morning, up to four o'clock—the leak broke out about half-past three o'clock—I knew of it by seeing the men pumping—from that time they had to pump constantly for about twenty-four hours after that—I recollect on that day having to look for Webb—Bray made an application to me for some seizing—that is small rope—I went and looked for Webb all round the ship—I went to the captain's cabin, and asked the steward where Webb was—I could not find him—it was close on four o'clock that I saw him—I cannot say what time I began to look for him—I could not leave my business—I could not leave the men and go and hunt all round the decks for him—I returned to my work after I had looked for him—I saw him about four o'clock—I went to look for him about two or half-past two o'clock, I could not say exactly—when I saw him he came from the cabin, he came out of the cuddy, as we call it, and he was all over perspiration and sweat—I asked him for some seizing and got it—we were pumping all the next day until about twelve o'clock—I did not go on making preparations to get the boats out—the captain gave me orders to get all hands to dinner, and they left off pumping—I did not assist in getting the tackle of the boats out before dinner—I got it off after that—I saw the provisions and the water-casks put into the boats—I was not in the long boat at all at the time she was at the stern of the ship—I was standing in the main chains, engaged in getting the provisions and water into the boat—I handed the things—at one time I was in one of the boats at the stern of the vessel—in one of the gigs, the captain's boat—while I was in the gig at the stern of the vessel my attention was directed to two auger holes at the stern, on the port side, the port quarter—I can't say how far above the copper sheathing, I can't saw for certain what distance it was, three or four feet from the stern port—I saw the holes as
the vessel lifted to the sea—they were low enough for the water to get into the vessel—they were above the copper—I know what the top-booting is—they were about eighteen inches or two feet from the copper—I saw some splinters from four to five inches long out of the wood sheathing—the sheathing is sometimes called the top-booting—it is the outside planking—the splinters were three or four inches long—they were new, fresh—they were as if you took a knife and cut a piece of board—I took the captain out of the ship that night—I saw the holes about four o'clock in the afternoon—I saw them five or six times, not only once—I ran under the vessel's stern on purpose to have a good look—the captain was the last man taken off from the ship—I was in my boat when he was taken off—my boat was the gig—the captain first of all got into the gig—I had the charge of it—when we left the ship her fore-chains were underwater—she was very nearly sinking—I did not get into the long boat—I remained in my own boat, and we were at last taken up by the Arequipa and taken to Pernambuco—from Pernambuco I came home in the Oneida, the same vessel in which the captain and mate returned—I took leave of the mate at Southampton—he gave me a sovereign—that was for the time I was boatswain—I was to have 1l. more a month—he gave me the sovereign two days before we got to Southampton, and likewise two shillings to get a couple of bottles of beer—I had shipped as an able seaman, and was made boatswain—he paid this on account of my extra pay as boatswain—I took leave of him at Southampton, and saw him no more.
Cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH. Q. Were you on board the Oneida when the mate gave you the money? A. Yes—he gave me a sovereign and two shillings—no one was present, he called me on one side and gave it me—all who were on board the long boat came home in the Oneida, with the exception of those who shipped abroad—I cannot say how many came home with me—I first mentioned this matter about the ship, if any one asked me about it I told them—I mentioned it at Newport, I went to Newport from Southampton—I stayed at Pernambuco three days—I went twice to the Consul's there—I did not sign a protest—the captain was the last man in my boat—Webb had been cruising about in his boat two or three hours before the captain left—when I examined the vessel at Newport the hull was in a fit state to go to sea—I did not examine the vessel till we got to "the Spit"—the rigging was bad, likewise the jibboom and the mainyard.
JOSEPH RUPERTO . I am an able seaman, and shipped on board the Severn at Newport as such—on the 14th, the day before the ship foundered, it was very fine weather, and on the 15th the weather was also fine—I left the ship at about two o'clock to get into the long boat—Webb, the mate, sent me there—when the long boat was astern of the ship I saw two holes in the port side of the ship, that was about half-past two—they appeared to be from the inside to the outside, because the splinters came outside—on my seeing the holes I said something to Bray, who called out to Webb, who was aft on board the Severn, "Hole over the stern"—the mate said it was only a trenail out of the stern, and then went forward—Webb came and took charge of the long boat, and we cruised about—after he took charge of the long boat we did not go near enough to the vessel to see the holes—we left the ship for good in the evening—after that I was picked up by the Arequipa and taken to Pernambuco and shipped home in the Edith Marian—I have been a seaman thirteen years—there was nothing in the vessle, with the exception of the holes, to cause her to make water in the manner stated.
Cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH. Q. Were you before the Consul at Pernambuco? A. No, I was at the Consul's, but I did not hear the protest read—I know what the protest of a ship is—I was not there when the captain, mate, and crew were there, and the protest was read—I went to the Consul's three or four times—until I came to London I had never told one word about this matter—the gale which occurred about ten days before the ship went down was not a very stiff one—the sails were not closereefed—there were double-reefed topsails—it shipped a very few seas—during the gale I saw boxes floating past the vessel as if from a wreck—the gale lasted from early one morning till the next—I helped to reef the topsails next morning.
THOMAS HOCKRIDGE . I shipped in the Severn as steward—Webb engaged me—he came to my lodgings and asked me if I would ship with him—I told him I had just come to Newport and was in no hurry to ship again directly—he asked to go on board the Severn and I went—he said the captain was a nice man, and he had sailed with him five or six years before—I was placed under the shoot to take in the cargo—whilst at Newport I saw Holdsworth on board the Severn—Webb first said that he was agent for the ship, or broker, or something of that sort, and I understood at another time that he was the owner, or one of the owners—the last time I saw Holdsworth on board the ship was when we left the docks—he went out to "the Spit" and then returned in a tug-boat—I remember Webb saying at Newport that he had ordered eight new water-kegs—I also remember some wooden cases being taken on board—Webb told me they contained firearms, such as carbines, revolvers, and sabres—I slept in the house opposite the cabin, on the starboard side—after leaving Newport Webb got a lot of stores for me, and placed them in the store-room of the cabin—no mate, to my knowledge, had ever done that before—I recollect when the ship sprung a leak—we had a strong breeze when we left the Channel first—on the 14th of June it was fine weather, and also on the 15th—I think I left the vessel in the long boat about three o'clock in the afternoon on the 15th—I went into the boat by Webb's direction—while I was in the long boat, and at the stern of the Severn, I saw two pieces of wood sticking out in the port quarter, which I took at the time to be trenails—I recollect Webb getting into the long boat and afterwards cruising about—we were ultimately picked up by the Arequipa—I never saw this log-book on board the Severn—the log-book on board the Severn was a dark blue book, something of that size, but not so thick—Webb gave me money at Pernambuco to make the boatswain drunk—I did not make him drunk—Webb said if we spent more than he had given us he would make it up.
Cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH. Q. When you saw the holes you thought they were trenails that had worked out? A. Yes—there was a strong breeze about a week before we abandoned the ship—it was no storm, just a stiff breeze—very often they reef the topsails before the breeze comes on—I cannot say for how long the topsails were reefed, it had not to do with my duty—during the time the topsails were reefed I did not see the wreck of a vessel—I heard it said that the others saw it, but I do not know that they did, while the sails were reefed—that was when she began to make water first, I cannot say how long—after the vessel began to make water we had to pump every two hours—all hands are not at all times called to pump in a gale of wind—I was not called on to assist at the pumps, only the night before we left the ship, and then it was of my
own free will—I did not tell one word of the story I have been narrating to-day till I came to England—I appeared before the British Consul at Pernambuco—I there, in company with the captain and the crew, heard the protest read, and signed it.
MR. SOLICITOR-GENERAL. Q. Do you know by whose direction the protest was drawn up? A. I do not—it was first produced to me at Pernambuco in the Consul's office—I had been waiting there from ten in the morning till four in the afternoon before it was produced—I did not give any information from which the protest was drawn up—I did not see the Consul with reference to it—I had no conversation with any one—I was called in to sign it, and I signed it—I did not know what it contained—I only heard certain parts of it—a boy of fourteen or fifteen read it over, but I did not understand a great deal of it—the captain had to explain some of the words to the boy, because the boy could not read it—I cannot say whether he understood English—the captain and mate signed it before me, and then me and several of the crew put our names to it—I saw what I thought were the trenails as the ship rose and fell into the water, two or three different times; there were two pieces of wood sticking out of the stern.
GEORGE AUGUSTE OSTERGOVE . I am a Swede—I shipped on board the Severn as ship's carpenter—I have been a ship's carpenter and used to the sea for about ten years—I shipped in her the day before she left Newport—I think it was on the 17th that she got under weigh and proceeded to sea—at the time she left she appeared to be seaworthy—I remember having a breeze or some rough weather—that was about a fortnight after we left Newport—we were then close to Madeira I should think—the rough weather did not last long—after that the water had to be pumped out twice in a watch—by pumping it in that way we got the pumps to suck each time we pumped—that continued till the 14th of June—by that time we had got considerably past Madeira—before the 14th of June, and after the rough weather, the mate gave orders about pumping—we had to pump her twice in a watch—I told the mate one day, about two days after the rough weather, that one of the sailors said there was a leak in the forecastle—that was after we had orders to pump out twice every watch, and that if he liked to go down with me I would go down—we went down with a light, and made a careful examination, but did not see any signs of a leak—I did not hear any water coming in at all—after that we continued to pump as before, which kept the water down—on the 14th of June I sounded the pumps, and found water in her—that was about two minutes to four—up to that time they had pumped twice in a watch as before—when I sounded there were twenty inches of water in the ship—upon that we immediately set to work at the pumps—twenty minutes after I sounded her again, and there were twenty-one inches of water in her—the water was then gaining upon her—the crew kept pumping till the pumps drew clear water—I had not known of anything at the time which would be likely to occasion the sudden leak of the vessel—Webb came up and I told him about the leak, that it was very bad—that was in the carpenter's shop—he said, "Never mind that, carpenter; it will soon be over; it will soon be all right again, and I hope she will reach her destination in China"—he said, "When we get there I shall try and get you into my new ship, which I am going to be captain of, and I will give you 2l. or 3l. more in a month"—I had shipped to go out and home in the Severn—on the evening of that day orders were given for the purpose of getting the water-kegs ready—they were
filled with water—none of the crew were allowed to know it—the second mate did it—I did not help him, one of the boys did—he asked me for an auger to open the holes in the water-tank—he said, "Go to the pumps, carpenter, and do not say anything to the crew"—one of the water-tanks was opened and the water-kegs filled—I went back to the pumps—I went to see the captain in the evening—Webb came to the forecastle and spoke to Bray—I went alone to the cabin—Webb came in shortly after that—the captain asked me if I could keep her up that night—I said, "It looks rather odd; we have all hands at the pumps, and we cannot keep the pumps going all night"—he said, "But you must, and tryo keep her up till to-morrow morning"—he said he would run her to St. Vincent—the mate asked him what he would do at St. Vincent, and he said he would repair her or take her home to England again—Webb did not want to take her in there—I said, "We can get carpenters there"—he said, "There are no carpenters or other men to be got there"—we continued pumping all that night—I do not remember seeing the captain on deck that night—the last time I sounded there was ten feet nine inches of water—it was thirty-six inches on the 14th—the leak was still gaining on us—I said to Webb the same night, "If I knew where the leak was I would go and try to stop it"—he said, "No, carpenter, I will not allow that no way"—I did not get any orders to stop it—the mate told me I was not to stop it—I told him I would search for the leak and try to stop it—he said, "No, no, carpenter, I will not allow you to go outside, I will not allow you to search for the leak"—I did not search for it—at four o'clock the next morning I was again at the pumps—the water was still gaining on us all the time—Webb told me before he went below to make a boat mast for the cutter, which I did—there were three boats completely rigged—we were pumping till twelve o'clock that morning, when all hands went to dinner, and we did not pump afterwards—after that we received orders after dinner to clew up all the sails, which we did—the boats were all got out, and masts and sails were put in them, also provisions and water-kegs—I remember Webb going away and cruising about in the long boat—I remained on board the ship all the time—Webb came back on board the ship between three and four o'clock, and spoke to me about the depth of water in her—that was not the last time I sounded—he told me he should go to the captain and ask him whether he should leave or not—I sounded the pumps about half-past seven or a quarter to eight—it was nearly dark—there were ten feet eight or nine inches of water in the ship at that time—that was the last time I sounded—she would not go down before there were twelve feet of water in her, and I wanted to stay on board till then, but it was getting too dark—before I did leave the pumps were unrigged—I had orders from the captain to unrig the sockets that go over the pumps, and I did so—at eight or half-past the captain and those on board the ship got into the boat and left the ship altogether—in my judgment there was nothing whatever to account for the leak in the vessel—after I left the vessel I went into the long boat and saw Webb there, and told him there were ten feet eight or nine inches of water in the vessel—he asked me if I was sure the ship would go down that night—I said, "Yes, you can be sure of that"—I asked him if he would like to stop with the ship and see her go down—he said, "No, no, carpenter, not if you are sure that she will founder"—I said, "Of course I am"—he then said, "Let us make sail and get away," and we did so—we were out some days
and were picked up by the Arequipa, and taken into Pernambuco—I lived in the carpenter's shop, in the afterpart of the forecastle—I know where the mate's cabin was—Webb told me three or four times that he had tools in his cabin—he had one or two screw-augers—I got them from him when he was caulking the gig—I believe he got them from the scuttle behind the cabin—I think he gave me the augers and a plane—I remember his having some conversation with me about the vessel, on board the Arequipa—I had heard him talking to Kelly before that, the same day—I did not hear what passed, but he said that if the mate did not let the boatswain alone, Kelly should tell the mate something about the holes which he saw in the stern of the Severn—he said, "Do you believe,'carpenter, that there were some holes?"—I said, "I do not believe that, because the ship was newly repaired before she left London"—he said, "No, that cannot be; that must have been a couple of trenails left out by the carpenter"—I said, "No; that is not likely at all, because she has been hauled over and new coppered, and the carpenter would not have been such a fool as to leave out a couple of trenails"—Webb said, "I will try what I can do with the boatswain; do you remember what he did to me in the boats? if it costs me 100l. I will get them punished"—that passed between us on board the Arequipa—I told him what I had done before I left the ship, by the captain's orders; that was the unrigging the pumps—I asked him if there could be anything done to me for that—he said, "No, no, carpenter, you are all right, but keep still, and do not say anything to any one"—it would not have been possible to have saved the vessel with so much water in her, even if the pumps had not been unrigged—I went to Pernambuco, and remained there two or three days, and was one of those who made the protest—I did not give any instructions for the protest—I first heard about it at Pernambuco, at the Consul's office, before the paper was brought—I was there from nine or ten in the forenoon to four o'clock in the afternoon, standing waiting the whole time—the protest was read over in my presence by a boy about fourteen or fifteen years of age, and I signed it after the captain and mate—I came home in the Oneida with the captain, mate, and some of the crew—the steward and I met Webb the night before we came from Pernambuco—he asked us to have a glass of beer—I said, "If you please"—he took us into a beer-shop, and asked me if I was able to make the boatswain drunk the next day, so as to make him unable to go with us in the Oneida—I said, "I will try, but I have no money"—he then gave me two milreis to make the boatswain drunk—he said he wanted to make him drunk next day, because he did not want him in the mail boat, as he had too much to say—the boatswain is Thompson—I did not do what I could to make him drunk—I went into a public-house myself, and spent the money—Thompson did not get the benefit from it; I think he had a glass of rum before we started, but I do not know exactly—the boatswain came home in the same vessel as I did—after I came home I received a message from Lloyd's Salvage Association to go to them, and I went and told my story.
Cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH. Q. Is that account as to what Webb said about the boatswain having too much to say, the one you have always given? A. Yes—I was examined before the Magistrate—I think I said there that Webb told me that the boatswain had too much to say, and was a drunkard—I cannot swear I did, but still he told me so, and he told me something else, which I cannot remember now—it is very hard for me to remember; it is some weeks ago—I mean to say that the mate prevented
me from going below to see where the leak was—he did not go down with me that night to see where the leak was, he did two days after the gale was over; but I mean on the same day she sprung a leak—I do not use augers for caulking boats, I use caulking-irons for that—I did not ask him for the tools to do the work on board the ship; I had tools myself—the mate gave me one or two augers, not for the purpose of caulking the gig, but he said I could use them—I did not tell Webb at Pernambuco that I had discovered Kelly taking some of Johnson's clothes—it was about three or four minutes before we left the vessel that we unshipped the pumps and threw the sockets overboard—at that time there was no one on board but me and the captain—the ship could be saved without the sockets—when I made the protest at Pernambuco I did not object to any portion of it, and I do not think you would if you were a foreigner—I did not pay any attention to it; I did not understand it—I have been at sea sixteen years—that was the first time I ever signed a protest, and that was the fourth ship I had lost—I had been told many days before that we were to sign a protest, but if I had been going to hang next day I should not have understood it.
GEORGE BARRETT . I am seventeen this month—I joined the Severn in February, 1866, and went round in her from London to Newport—I saw Holdsworth there, and a gentleman with him, but I could not recognise him now—I saw Holdsworth twice on board the vessel—he stayed there about a quarter of an hour or twenty minutes each time—the other gentleman was with him only on one occasion—I cannot say whether it was either of the prisoners—I remember the day when we took to the boats—I got into the captain's gig—we cruised around first—when I was on the ship standing on the quarter, and the captain and mate were alongside, Kelly sang out, "No wonder the b----ship is sinking, there are two holes under the quarter"—the captain and Webb then went down into the cabin—the captain went first—they were away about ten minutes—the mate then came on deck and went into the long boat—I afterwards got into it and was put from there into the gig—about ten minutes after, when I was in the gig, I saw some splinters in the ship's stern—I have been in the carpenter's business for two years—the splinters were like as if a person was to bore a hole from the inside, and when he got about half an inch from the outside gave the auger a push, and sent it right through—while at Newport I assisted in blacking the outside of the ship—there were little splinters chipped off and chafing, but nothing like being bored through—I blacked those places over—Antonio Ellick assisted me in that.
Cross-examined by MR. KEMP. Q. Did you see some trenails sticking out? A. No, I saw nothing at all sticking out from the holes—this ship formerly belonged to Mr. Sweet—I am the son of Mr. Sweet's carpenter—I do not remember what month I arrived in London; I think it was May 2nd—I heard the men talking about the ship being improperly dealt with before I returned to London—I told my father about it first—I did not mention the circumstances before, because I was never asked anything about it.
ANTONIO ELLICK . I shipped as a seaman on board the Severn—I have been used to the sea—I am an Austrian—I was in the ship when Captain Shields, the former captain, gave her up—I remember Webb coming on board—after I joined the vessel I had orders to go and assist in blacking her—I blacked her all round—that was not the whole of the hull above the copper—she was lying in dock then, not dry dock—there were no holes
in the vessel when I blacked her—her hull appeared to be sound and good—before she left Newport I had orders from Webb to go to the head of the dock and fetch twelve cases on board—I went there and found the cases on one of the quays—I took them on board the Severn and put them down aft in the store-room, which is 'tween decks at the stern—I pumped from time to time, when she wanted pumping, first every twelve hours and afterwards every two hours—I remember being ordered to pump on the 14th of June, in consequence of the leak, and I assisted in pumping as long as the vessel was pumped—on the 15th the boats were got out and put over the vessel's side—I got into the starboard boat, the gig, which was got over for the purpose of having her rigged—she floated astern of the vessel—the mate called me aboard the cutter, which was astern of the ship, and I saw a hole in the Severn's stern, with plugs in it, of about four inches long outside—I saw that continually as the ship rose and fell in the sea—it was in the port quarter of the stern, ten or eleven inches or a foot above the copper—the boatswain was in the boat in the course of the afternoon—I stayed in the ship until she was up to the forechains in water, and then left her, and was picked up by the Arequipa and taken to Pernambuco—I came home in the Island Queen—after I came to England I had instructions to come to London and see Captain Downward.
Cross-examined by MR. KEMP. Q. Were you one of the men who signed the protest? A. Yes—I saw two or three holes in the vessel's side, but only one plug—it was eleven or twelve inches above the copper, manifest to everybody as she rose on the sea—when I saw it I told a man with me, "You see that plug in the hole, and you see holes in the ship?"—he said, "Yes."
WILLIAM HAYNES , I shipped on board the Severn as an ordinary seaman—I was treated very well on board—on the day we took to the boats and left the ship I was on the poop about four o'clock in the afternoon: Webb was near me; Henry Bray called out from the long boat that two trenails had washed out of the stern—I did not see what became of Webb, but he went away—I first got into the long boat, and afterwards into the gig—I heard a knocking the day before, which attracted my attention, in the afternoon about half-past four o'clock—it appeared to be under the port quarter—I did not see Webb at the time that the knocking was going on—it was not Webb's watch then; it had been—his watch would end at four o'clock—I had not seen him on deck during his watch.
Cross-examined by MR. KEMP. Q. When he said that the trenails had worked out, did you see it? A. No.
DECIMUS JONES . I was shipped as a boy on board the Severn—I joined the ship on the 11th of May—I remember the boats being got out on the 15th of June—I got into the second mate's boat, the cutter, about six o'clock, it might be before—it was still daylight—after I got into the boat it was cruising about, I and the second mate and four more were in it—we sailed by the vessel's stern once, and I saw a large splinter under the port quarter—we had got sail on at that time—I only saw it as the ship rose and fell—I remained in the cutter and went to Rio.
CHARLES WEST . I am in the counting-house of Mr. George Crowshaw, a shipbroker and shipowner, of 116, Fenchurch Street—he was managing owner of the Severn, and had the chief interest in her—he bought her about February, 1865—she stood us in about 4500l. with some extras—while Mr. Crowshaw was the managing owner she made one voyage—in January, 1866, an arrangement was made for the sale of her
to Mr. Sweet, for 4250l. for her—at the time Mr. Sweet purchased her a contract had been entered into with Sir John Pirie and Co. to freight the vessel for Shanghae—I was privy to that arrangement—Mr. Sweet made a deposit of 250l., and took Sir John Pirie's acceptance for 1500l.—that was part of the freight—1500l. was paid by Sir John Pirie, and the balance was secured by mortgage on the ship—the balance was 2884l.—that was interest and charges, which made the extra amount for which the mortgage was to be—I believe that the mortgage was to extend to the 1500l. as well while the bills were running. (Bills produced: one for 1000l. and one for 500l., drawn by T. W. Sweet on Sir John Pirie, Bart., & Co., at six months, dated 9th June, 1866, on account of freight of ship Severn.) Those are the two bills—they were paid at maturity—after this transaction with Mr. Sweet he advised us that a sale was arranged to a person named Ward. (The register of the transfer was here put in.) I never saw Holdsworth in connection with this transaction—after I heard of the sale from Mr. Sweet to Mr. Ward I received payment of the balance owing to us, on which the mortgage was secured—the amount paid was 2884l. 13s. 4d.—that was paid to us by Smith, Simpson, and Co.—I do not know how it was paid—that, and the 1500l. we had received from Sir John Pirie and Co., liquidated the whole of the amount due to us, with the 250l. deposit—I witnessed the signature of Sir John Pirie to the charter-party—the signature of Ward and Co. was witnessed by Mr. Simpson.
Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT ATKINSON. Q. I have been attempting to follow you through the various dates; is the substance of it that Mr. Sweet did not become owner until 17th January, 1866? A. Somewhere about that time—I did not see Mr. Holdsworth at all about this matter—I knew him by sight—I knew him in the City as a ship and insurance broker—I have seen him engaged in business in the City, but never at our office.
THOMAS WHITTLE SWEET . I am a shipbroker and owner, of 126, Fenchurch Street—my agreement for the purchase of the Severn was early in January, 1866—I had to pay down 250l., 1500l. in bills, and the rest was to be secured on mortgage—there were some subsequent payments—a part of the arrangement was that certain bills were to be handed over from Sir John Pirie—when I bought the ship I chartered her to Sir John Pirie—this (produced) is the original charter, dated 9th January—I agreed for the purchase of the vessel in December, 1865—after I purchased the vessel I expended money upon her in London; her hull was repaired and she was re-metalled and caulked—I saw her myself; she was a sound good ship for her age—she was American built—she was coppered eight or nine feet high when I bought her, and I coppered her to nineteen feet; when we put her in dock we found the metal was not good enough, so we re-metalled her—she was top-booted before I bought her—I knew Holdsworth in January, 1866—I met him at Liverpool some three months previously—after I had purchased the ship we met in the street, and he asked me if I had anything to sell, as he had established an office in London—that led to some conversation—I said I had nothing to sell but a vessel under charter, that she was a cheap ship, and had an excellent freight, and he might perhaps be able to do something with her—he said perhaps he could do with her, and asked me the particulars, and I gave them—I did not at that time give him the particulars of the charter-party—he went down to Liverpool and wrote me some letters—I saw him in London again occasionally—he said he thought he could get two friends
who would entertain the purchase of the ship, that one of them was a timber merchant at one of the east ports of Scotland—he also told me of some other person who was to purchase the vessel—he named Ward ultimately, who he said was a merchant, carrying on business at Botolph Lane, and I eventually arranged for the purchase of the ship through Holdsworth by Ward—that was subsequently reduced to writing—this is it (produced)—it is signed by Ward—this is his signature; and Holdsworth took a counterpart signed by me. (This was an agreement, dated March 10th, 1866, by Ward & Co., to purchase the vessel for 6500l. A bill of sale from Sweet to Wordy dated March 19th, 1866, and a mortgage from Ward to Smith and Simpson, of the same date, were also put in.) I could only sell the equity—that would be 2500l., but some further charges were incurred, and in the result I was paid by Smith, Simpson, and Co., by bills at six months, 2276l. 16s. 5d., which were paid at maturity—in the course of my negotiations I saw Holdsworth very frequently indeed—I saw Ward three or four times—I do not think I saw Dean in this matter; it was only when there was a little difficulty about the stores—I do not think I saw Dean at all in the course of the transactions—he may have been in Holdsworth's office at the time; yes he was. (The charter-party was here put in, dated March 19th, 1866.)
Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT ATKINSON. Q. Do you know how old the vessel was? A. I think she was about twelve or thirteen years old—I cannot say whether the jibboom and some of the spars were not in a very good state—I supplied new spars where they were wanted—the spar bill was 73l.—the object of coppering her higher was, that the worms might not eat into her in eastern climates—there were symptoms of that, but not to any great extents—she might have been wormed under the top-booting—I went round her before she was top-booted—I am accustomed to vessels—I only knew Holdsworth as bidding for the vessel for a broker in Liverpool—I never was in his office there—I paid him the commission as a broker—he acted as a broker, and took a warm interest—I thought he would try to get a buyer.
Cross-examined by. MR. RIBTON. Q. Did you see Dean often at Holds-worth's office? A. Occasionally; whenever I went there to inquire for Mr. Holdsworth I used to see him there with Holdsworth—there was only one room—he sat at one flap and Holdsworth at the other, like any other ordinary clerk—I had never seen him before this transaction—there was some bother about some items of stores said not to be on board, and Holdsworth was complaining of the deficiency in the inventory, and used to call on me.
COURT. Q. As far as you saw, Dean was only acting as a clerk might? A. Exactly.
HENRY GIDEON SHARP . I am managing clerk to Sir John Pirie and Co.—they were the charterers of the Severn—we accepted these two drafts of James Ward and Co. on 28th April. (Produced: dated 28th April, 1866, drawn by Thomas Ward and Co. upon and accepted by Sir John Pirie and Co., of London, one for 1000l., and the other for 1288l. 13s. 4d.). That would leave upon certificate of discharge of cargo in China 1894l. 6s.—the interest on that, so far as we are concerned, is an interest assurable at Lloyd's, and we assured it—we paid 428l. 17s. premium, ten guineas per cent, on 3000 guineas, and eleven guineas on the 1800l.—by the terms of the charter-party, we were to deduct that from the last payment of freight—for those premiums we received a draft
from James Ward and Co. on Smith, Simpson, and Co., which has been paid.
THOMAS WARD . I am a wine merchant—I have known Holdsworth twelve months—I met Dean at a merchant's office, and he introduced me to Holdsworth as a buyer of wines—I had several transactions with Holdsworth, and bought twenty butts of sherry of him—he was in the wine business—about March, 1866, I saw Holdsworth and Dean together in Holdsworth's office, 146, Fenchurch Street—something was said on that occasion about the purchase of the Severn—Holdsworth said a friend of his was about purchasing a ship, and mentioned Mr. Berwick's name as the owner—I asked him the reason Mr. Berwick did not want the ship to stand in his name—he said that Berwick did not stand well with Lloyd's, and said that if I would allow the vessel to stand in my name he would give me a commission of 50l.—Dean mentioned the sum of 50l. first—he said if I would allow the ship to stand in my name Mr. Holdsworth would give me 50l.—I said I had no objection, provided I was held harmless—nothing more was said—after that I was introduced by Holdsworth to Sweet—Smith, Simpson, and Co. were mentioned—they were to be the mortgagees—Holdsworth said that I should have to draw upon Smith, Simpson, and Co.—at first I objected, as I was not aware I should have to draw bills, but I agreed to it afterwards—he said that Berwick was in Liverpool, but he would be in town in the course of a day or two—I saw Berwick a few days after that at Holdsworth's office—I went there to see him on the matter of purchasing the ship—I heard that Berwick was coming; Dean told me so at my office the same day, and I went to Holdsworth's office and found Berwick there—Holdsworth said, "This gentleman is the owner of the ship Severn; he is to be the purchaser of the ship"—nothing particular occurred; we shook hands, but nothing particular was mentioned—I do not think Berwick said anything at the time—I saw a cheque pass from Berwick to Holdsworth, which I saw was for 500l.—during that interview an appointment was made for me to accompany Holdsworth to Smith, Simpson, and Co's (it was made by Holdsworth) the following day, for the purpose of drawing a set of bills upon Smith, Simpson, and Co.—before I kept the appointment I went to Mr. Sweet's with Holdsworth—I afterwards kept my appointment at Smith, Simpson, and Co.'s, and I saw there Mr. Simpson, and Mr. Crewe, his clerk—the bills were not ready, and I had to call again, on, I think, the following day—when the bills came I put my name to them.
RICHARD COLIN SMITH . I do not produce the bills of exchange—I have not been served with a subpoena duces tecum—I was not desired to bring any papers whatever—we would have brought them with pleasure if we had known it—we supposed they were not required, having been produced at the Mansion House—they shall be brought here to-morrow.
THOMAS WARD (continued). After I had signed those pieces of paper I went to Mr. Donaldson, a notary in Cornhill—I met Smith and Crowshaw there, and signed the bill of sale, which has been produced—I saw it handed over to Mr. Sweet—from there I went with one of Mr. Donaldson's clerks to the Custom House, and signed the register as owner of the Severn—the next day I went to Holdsworth's office again, and saw Holdsworth, Berwick, and Dean—nothing particular was said on the matter of the ship, only that the ship matter was settled, and they hoped it would be a profitable transaction; an appointment was then made to go down to the dock to show Mr. Berwick's wife the east vault of the London Docks—a few
days after that Dean came to me about the salt I had warehoused, but before that Dean came to me and said they required me to sign the charter-party for Shanghae—I made a remark at the time, "When will this matter end about this ship?"—he said there would soon be an end to signing any documents—I then went to Holds worth's office, and signed the charter-party—he had been to me several times—I believe Dean was present, but no one else—after that Dean came to me about a message from Messrs. Foster, of Clement's Lane—he wanted me to write to them, to ask them to insure the vessel for the cargo—at that time he brought that document (produced) for me to copy—Dean's writing and Holdsworth's are very similar; but I rather think it is Holdsworth's writing—I had a doubt about it at the Mansion House. (Read: "Messrs. James Foster and Company. Dear Sirs,—We will thank you to effect the following insurances on the lowest terms possible:—5000l. on the ship Severn, A2, American Lloyd's, 1250 tons, Newport to Shanghae, with coals, ship valued at 10,000l., either on time policies or out of them; also 2000l. on freight, valued at 6000l. The ship has been newly coppered in London, and has had a thorough overhaul, and is in first-rate order. She will probably sail on the 29th inst." No date or signature.) I copied that—this is my copy. (This was signed "Thomas Ward and Co.," and was addressed to Fraser and Co., and was a copy of the above, except that A2 had been altered to A1.) I handed the copy to Dean—I saw Leyland at Holdsworth's office on two or three occasions about the end of March—I saw the loss of the ship for the first time in the newspapers—some time after that I went to Holdsworth's office, and saw Berwick, who mentioned about the Severn going down, and said that it was a very bad job—this account between me and Holdsworth is in Dean's writing—in the list of items there is, "Commission on ship, 50l."—that represents the commission I was to receive for allowing it to stand in my name—I had no interest whatever in the ship; I never paid a farthing for her—I never saw her—Holdsworth said in March that he was going to send up about fifty dozen of salt, and asked if I could put it in my warehouse—I have got an entry which shows the payment of the carriage for it—Holdsworth asked me if I could take in about forty dozen of it for sale in jars—I agreed to take it, and about two days after that I received forty dozen of salt in four casks—my porter and my son unpacked them—I believe this jar (produced) is like those I received—Holds-worth gave me instructions to sell some at 6s. or 7s., I don't know which—I sold six dozen, and the rest were repacked and sent back to Liverpool, or rather about twenty dozen of them—they were packed in three small casks, which they came in, and were sent by Chaplin and Home—I did not gee the direction; my son put it on—they were to be sent to Liverpool, but I did not see the address—I heard Holdsworth say they were to be packed and sent off by Chaplin and Home to Liverpool, but I heard no-name mentioned, and I gave instructions for this to be done—the three barrels only contained jars of salt—I am quite sure they contained no arms of any kind—beside the jars I sold and those I sent back to Liverpool, I think one cask of about six dozen was sent to Newport—at the time of this transaction I saw Dean very often: two or three times a day—he appeared to be acting as clerk to Holdsworth—I did not know him at all by the name of Allsopp—I did not know he was trading under the name of Allsopp and Co. at that time.
Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. You have stated that during the whole of the salt transaction which took place in March, Dean was acting as
Holdsworth's clerk? A. Yes—he came to me on many occasions, and took me to Holdsworth's office, and whatever business I had to do I negotiated with Holdsworth—I heard that Dean was trading as Allsopp and Co.—I think he commenced trading under that name in August—he went backwards and forwards to Holdsworth's office during that time, and I was not aware he had ceased to be his clerk, as I did not go so much to Holdsworth's office—I do not think he had wholly left—very likely he had ceased to be clerk, but I don't know it—I did not make a complaint to Holdsworth about him—I complained to Dean—I merely mentioned it to Holdsworth, and said, "It is a pity you should fall out with Dean"—I was not aware that Holdsworth discharged him—I did not tell Mr. Brady and Mr. Parker that I had got him the sack; certainly not—I said very little to Brady or Parker, I never interfere in other persons' business—I did not say anything to them about Dean—Dean's and Holdsworth's writing are very similar—there is no signature or address to this paper—I am sure it is in Dean's writing—it is an account between me and Holdsworth—I heard Holdsworth give instructions to Dean to make out my account and strike a balance—that was about June—it was very likely in Holdsworth's office—Dean had a portion of a double desk there—he sat opposite to Holdsworth—I heard Holdsworth desire him to make out my account, and in accordance with those directions he made it out—I was not to have 100l.; only 50l. was mentioned, but they asked me to sign a receipt for 100l.—nothing was said about 100l. in the first instance—it was not suggested that Holdsworth was to have half the commission—only 50l. was mentioned to me—I signed a receipt for 100l., for him to show to Berwick—I signed it because I was asked to—I do not know that Dean was selling for himself on commission after this matter—in all the interviews, Holdsworth directed Dean to do certain things, which he did.
Friday, February, 1st, 1867.
THOMAS WARD (re-examined). These (produced) are the bills which I referred to in my re-examination yesterday—they are signed by me. (These were bills, dated the 25th of June, 1866, drawn by Thomas Ward on and accepted by Thomas Berwick, for six months, one for 2000l., and the other for 1764l. 19s. 8d., payable to the order of Smith, Simpson, and Co., and endorsed by them.) I do not know Berwick's handwriting—Mr. Holdsworth brought the bills to me.
Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT ATKINSON. Q. You say you carry on business as a wine merchant, I think? A. As a wine and general merchant—I was introduced to Holdsworth in the beginning of the year by Dean, as a general merchant, in Fenchurch Street—I did not know him as a ship broker—I am not aware that he practised as a ship broker; I had no transaction with him—I was not taken up on this charge—I was never told to go to any office—I received the salt to sell—I gave warehouse room to it for that purpose—I buy and sell other things besides wine—I told Holdsworth that the salt would not fetch his price.
Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. I believe you stated yesterday that you signed the charter-party in Holdsworth's office? A. Yes, I believe I did, to the best of my recollection, and Dean was present—I have a slight doubt about it—I believe I saw it first at Holdsworth's, and it might have gone on to Smith, Simpson, and Co., I can scarcely recollect
whether I signed it at Holdsworth's office, or at Smith, Simpson, and Co.'s—I think I might have signed it at Smith, Simpson, and Co.'s office—I think it was so—I was incorrect yesterday; it was a mistake.
MR. SOLICITOR-GENERAL. Q. Probably if you look at the charterparty you will be able to see where you actually signed it; I see Mr. Simpson's name as witness your signature? A. I think I signed it at Smith and Simpson's office—I do not recollect whether I had seen it first before I signed it there—Dean was not at Smith and Simpson's office at the time—Dean introduced me to Holdsworth, I think, about six weeks before I was spoken to about the ship—at that time I knew Holdsworth as a general merchant—Holdsworth fixed the price of the salt at so much a dozen.
RICHARD COLIN SMITH . I carry on business as a ship and insurance broker at George Yard, Lombard Street, under the style of Smith, Simpson, and Co.—I have a partner, Mr. Simpson—I have known Holdsworth about six years altogether—I have known Berwick about a year later—I never knew Webb—I never saw him till the day before he was arrested—I knew Holdsworth and Berwick in business transactions—I had more than one transaction with them before this, acting together, jointly interested—I have frequently been in the habit of advancing money on ships in my business—I have done so on ships in which both Berwick and Holdsworth were interested—we had advanced money to Berwick in connection with a ship, the Jane Brown—that has been paid—in the beginning of 1866 I saw Holdsworth in reference to the purchase of a vessel—it was about the beginning of March—he said he had a friend who wished to purchase a ship—he did not mention the ship at that time—he said he had come to us as a broker, to divide commission; my partner then came in and he asked him what kind of ship it was—he said it was a very fine ship, it was well adapted for China, that she could sail exceedingly well, but that he could do nothing unless we relieved him of a mortgage which the ship had on it—he then informed us that the ship was already chartered at a high freight for Hong Kong, or Shanghae—we replied that was an impediment to the business—he said that should not make any difference to us, we should have our commission, provided we would only take the mortgage on the ship—we said, "Well, who is your friend who is intending to purchase her?"—he told us that he was a respectable man, named Thomas Ward, of the firm of Thomas Ward and Co.—we said, "What is the amount required?"—I did not know Thomas Ward and Co. myself—I then said that we would inquire about him—he said he would require of us about 500l.—subsequently to that there were a number of interviews, which took place more with my partner than with me—Ward's name was mentioned by Holdsworth when we saw him again on the subject—we refused to take Ward—Holdsworth then said he knew some one we were acquainted with who was much better able and would become surety for Ward, and then he named Mr. Berwick—we replied, well, he had lost a ship not long ago, and we supposed he was in funds—he said, "Yes, he can pay over 1000l. immediately"—after two or three interviews a verbal arrangement was made that we were to receive 1000l. in cash, that we should receive a bill drawn by Mr. Holman, of Topsham, the manager of an insurance club there, for 700l.—we were also to receive two-thirds of the freight and to stand as mortgagees for from 3500l. to 4000l. on the ship and freight—it was merely a verbal guarantee, but it was confirmed by the 1000l. being brought to us—we would not deal in the matter unless we had the 1000l.—it was then
arranged that the mortgage should be properly prepared—the owner of the ship, Thomas Ward, was to be the party to it—nobody else at that time, but subsequently Thomas Berwick joined in the mortgage on the freights and policies—after that I think there was not any fresh arrangement—there is always a great deal of pro and con before business of this kind is completed—I think I have told you the substance of the arrangement—we were to advance from 3500l. to 4000l. altogether—Berwick became security at the time of the conversation about the value of the ship and the amount required—it was said that Berwick would come forward as security and would pay 1000l.—before the business was quite completed we found that they had not enough money—bills were given to us for the repayment of the 1000l.—it was repaid by me to Holdsworth afterwards, on receiving these bills—I have bills in my hands representing 3764l. 19s. 8d.—these bills are accepted by Berwick—upon receiving those bills we repaid the 1000l. which had been advanced to us in cash by Holdsworth, because they required money, in order that he might be enabled to fit the ship out—I presume that arrangement was with my partner at the time the money was advanced—these are bills drawn by Ward upon Berwick in our favour, deducting tho 1000l., there is 2764l. due on the bills—we held them as security—we asked for some other security, and we had some land in Liverpool assigned over to us—this is the mortgage on the ship, and here is also the other document, signed by Berwick—as the ship was to be mortgaged to us by Mr. Ward, Ward signed this for the purpose of carrying out that arrangement. (The documents were put in and read: both were dated the 19th of March, 1866.) We had at that time 1000l. in cash in our hands—we then agreed that we would accept drafts of Ward's for 3500l., to secure which we had first of all the mortgage of the ship, and, secondly, this deed, by which Berwick binds himself to repay the 3000l.—we did not pay the 1000l. all at once—we did not restore it on the 26th of June—we hardly knew what the 1000l. was for—I rather think it was part of the original agreement that the 1000l. advanced was to be repaid—my partner can tell you—by the arrangement in March the bills for 3500l. were to be aocepted—I have not the bills here—they passed out of my hands into Croshaw's, but they have been paid—probably my partner has got them. (Mr. Simpson. I have not got them—they are in our office—I suppose they have been paid.) The 3504l. was secured by mortgage of the ship and the guarantee of Berwick—I was aware of the fact that there was 1500l. freight, which had been paid for by drafts of Sir John Pirie and Co. to Sweet, and handed over by him to Croshaw in part payment—they never came to our hands—by the terms of the charter-party other drafts were to be given by Sir John Pirie, which we received—they amounted together to 2288l. 13s. 4d.—that made up the whole of the freight payable under the charter-party on this side of the water until the coals arrived—these bills, amounting to 2288l. 13s. 4d., were paid to our firm, and to that extent went in reduction of our debt—we paid Mr. Croshaw the amount of his mortgage on the 30th of March—we paid 2884l. 13s. 4d. in cash—that cleared off all Mr. Croshaw's interest in the vessel as mortgagee—that amount was in addition to the acceptances—he also received 1500l.; that left the ship free so far as he was concerned—Mr. Sweet arranged to sell the ship for 6500l., or something else, afterwards—the documents were handed to Holdsworth after the arrangement entered into between me and him—I have not myself since paid any money to Mr. Sweet—the drafts representing
the 2276l. debt still owing to Sweet on the sale of the vessel were delivered to Holdsworth I believe—our clerk was sent with Holdsworth to Mr. Sweet's office—those drafts for 2276l. were paid—we received 2288l. from John Pirie—the balance owing to us, as nearly as I can understand it upon the whole transaction, is 3700l.—there were further advances to make up the 3700l.—further advances were asked for by Holdsworth after the original agreement was entered into, and it was arranged that an equitable mortgage should be given to us on land, I presume that was about the middle of May—I cannot produce the memorandum of agreement made on the 22nd of May, 1856, between Thomas Berwick of the one part, and Smith and Simpson of the other—I did not know that it would be required—I do not think it was produced at the Mansion House—it is at our solicitors' office, Messrs. Ellis, Parker, and Clark—we made further advances to Holdsworth later in the year in respect of the ship—I have got a mortgage deed here—I think the matter stands in this way, on the debit side: To our acceptance, due the 18th of September, 2276l. 15s. 5d.; same date, cash paid for fire insurance, 1l. 13s. 9d.; Donaldson and Son, notaries, 11l. 13s. 4d.; Pirie, 691l. 17s. 8d.—that does not mean a draft—that was paid to Croshaw, as part of the balance of the account—on the 22nd of May, to Thomas Berwick, 100l.—Holdsworth asked for that—that was part of the 1000l.—a few days afterwards 150l. to Thomas Berwick; then our charge for commission, five per cent, on 5623l. freight, 284l. 3s.; commission on acceptances, 169l. 17s. 6d.; and our account due this day, 428l. 17s.—that is a former account I presume, not on former transactions—I think they are payments for premiums principally, because the following is a premium for insurance, 535l. 16s. 8d.—I remember now the 428l. 17s. was an insurance, in settling the transaction Pirie and Co. said that that ought to be paid; it was the amount of insurance on the advance of freight; and after some consideration we agreed that that should be done by an acceptance of ours—the 535l. 16s. 8d. is the amount of premiums on the insurance of 8000l., their balance of interest up to that time, 17l. 1s. 6d. and some petty expenses, 1l. 18s., making 4669l. 3s. 10d.—on the credit side we received of Fraser and Co. 350l. on the 8th of May—that was brought to us by Holdsworth—then we credit the draft of Holman and Sons, which I spoke of previously, 700l., less the discount, 37l., making 662l. 8s. 2d.—that leaves a balance of 3656l. 15s. 8d.—that closes the account—the 1000l. does not appear on either side of the account—our book-keeper superintended the keeping of those books—I did not look at them—Mr. Simpson did—there is Holdsworth's signature to this account in our books: "Settled and agreed on behalf of Thomas Berwick and Self, Lionel Holdsworth"—the account is headed, "Thomas Berwick, Esq., and owner,. of ship Severn, in account current with Smith, Simpson, and Co."—I think there is a memorandum at the bottom with reference to the 2288l., the amount of freight received from Pirie and Co.—it is not one of the items I have given, it appears separately on the account—that closed the account of money transactions.
Q. Just look again at your account, and see whether it is not now further reduced from 3700l. by payment of those drafts? A. Yes, I see a further amount of cash paid to Croshaw of 2885l. 17s. 2d.—that is merely a memorandum—I did not think it necessary to read it—against that balance we still hold the equitable mortgage—the amount of insurance effected by our orders was 5500l., with the exception
of 500l. that was effected through Mr. Fraser—Mr. Lupton did the 500l. for us—the policies are here, with the exception of the one done at Bristol, which our solicitor cannot lay his hands upon. (The two produced were dated 11th May, 1866, in the Friend-in-Need, for 500l.; and 31st May, 1866, for 4000l.; a Lloyd's policy, on the ship Severn, valued at 10,000l.)
Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. Q. During these transactions that you have spoken of did you see Berwick at all? A. We never saw Mr. Berwick—the two payments made for him were made to Holdsworth—they were cheques; I have not got them here; they will be brought here, we have them—all I can say is that we gave certain cheques to Holdsworth—the purchase price of the vessel was 6500l.—besides that there were many expenses on the vessel, so as to make her more valuable before she started; I do not myself know what they were; we did not make any expenditure upon the vessel; but necessarily upon a large vessel like that there would be very considerable expenditure.
Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT ATKINSON. Q. You had known Mr. Holdsworth as a ship and insurance broker I presume? A. Yes—in his dealings with us in these matters he acted as broker only—in the conversations about this vessel he asked if we could look out for a good Coolie charter; that would be in the Chinese seas—she was consigned to our agents at Shanghae for sale—we were also instructed by him, if we failed in a Coolie charter, to get a guano charter from the islands out in those seas; we were instructed to look out for whatever was profitable for the ship on the other side; a guano charter was certainly in contemplation.
Q. Was anything said about authorising you, as mortgagees of the vessel, to sell her if you could at Shanghae, in case a good price could be obtained for her? A. We held a written authority for that purpose, not only in the mortgage, but a separate authority—the vessel was bought at a reasonable price; she had a very good freight; if sold in Shanghae she would have realised a large profit; we thought she would fetch at least 10,000l. there, from our experience of having sold other vessels there—Holdsworth has owned two ships, of which we were mortgagees—one was not sold in China, she went out to China for the purpose of sale, but she was caught in a cyclone and condemned at Hong Kong, after performing various voyages from China; the other was sold in London—we have no security whatever of any kind or nature of Mr. Holdsworth in connection with the Severn—we looked at him only as the broker in the transaction—it was not at our request that he signed Berwick's account; it was done with our book-keeper; we did not know of it, either Mr. Simpson or myself—Mr. Crewe is our book-keeper; he will not be here, he has been for a long time in declining health, for two years past, and he has had an ague lately—he is so ill that he can hardly sit up in his bed—we received two sums of 500l. from Berwick—Holdsworth forwarded us 500l. in cash on the 20th of April—it is usual to insure over the value of the vessel; it is usually considered that we should insure double the value of a vessel to make ourselves safe—that is to secure ourselves against a variety of incidents—sometimes underwriters fail—in this case 1000l. is gone in the Accidental Death Company—the principal reason is that of bottomry, which overrides our mortgage—we consider it necessary to over-insure to make ourselves safe as mortgagees; it is not the habit of owners to insure a vessel for double the amount.
Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. Over what period of time did the transaction that you have now spoken to range? A. From March to
September—we saw Holdsworth only during the whole of that time in reference to these matters—we saw him about twenty times; he always came to our office—I never saw Dean in my life till I saw him here.
MR. SOLICITOR-GENERAL. Q. You have been asked whether you got 800l. cash from Holdsworth; did you? A. Yes; we received two sums of 500l., one on the 15th of March, and one on the 16th of April—I think I took that from our banker's book, from the cheque or the book—I cannot tell whether they were paid by cheque or cash; probably my partner can tell—I said I thought it was cash, but lam not sore—those are the dates on which I found two 500l. credited, they were advanced as the 1000l., according to the arrangement.
JOHN BARRY SIMPSON . I am partner to Mr. Smith—I was a party to this arrangement about the Severn—I negotiated the matter to some extent with Holdsworth—1000l. cash was to be given to us in exchange for our acceptances for the same amount—those acceptances were given and were paid; I have sent for them—we were to find 2500l. for the purpose of purchasing the vessel; we were to insure, and to have a mortgage, a second mortgage, and a guarantee; that was the arrangement—we were to give acceptances for 3500l., but, as we got 1000l. in cash, we only had to find 2500l.—eventually we had to find more—I received the 1000l., I think, in two cheques, one for 500l. on the Union Bank of Liverpool I think—this is it (produced)—it is in Berwick's writing—it was handed to me by Holdsworth. (This was dated the 14th of April, 1866, payable to Lionel Holdsworth or bearer.) In the balance that is now owing, and in the account which was received, the 1000l. is excluded on beth sides; it is not mentioned in the account either way; no commission or anything was charged upon it—we wanted to be put in cash, to show that they had money to go into the transaction—I have sent to see where the bills for 3500l. are—I was a party to an arrangement about an equitable mortgage on the estates of Berwick—I produce the document, it is signed by Berwick. (This was dated the 22nd of May, 1866, and was a memorandum of deposit of title deeds by Berwick to Smith, Simpson, and Co., in consideration of 600l.) What led to that mortgage was, that the whole of the money was not forthcoming to pay up the mortgage to Croshaw—our advances were over the 2500l.; we had to pay Croshaw 2884l. 13s. 4d., which was a little more than we expected, and Pirie's bills only realised between 2200l. and 2300l.—they amounted to 2288l. 13s. 4d., and realised about 40l. or 50l. less than that; the consequence was, we had to come under a larger advance than we expected in the first instance; we were pressing Holdsworth for money to pay up the account due to Croshaw, and, as there was no money forthcoming, we got what security we could, and we took this—Holdsworth arranged with us that we were to have an equitable mortgage for security—he said he could give us that, when we were pressing him for money; he said, "Well, there is 1000l. due to Berwick from Holman (that is the Topsham man); I have no doubt I can get that made over to you"—then he mentioned this land; until he mentioned it we did not know of it—we paid Croshaw on the 14th of May, and we got this mortgage on the 22nd of May—we did not get the whole of the 1000l., we got a bill for 700l., with a discount off, 662l.—I did not see Berwick at all with reference to this transaction, it was all managed by Holdsworth.
Q. What led to these bills being brought? A. We sent to Holdsworth at this time, and said that we should like to have bills for the amount of our account with the Severn—these bills were accepted on that account;
we wanted to negotiate them—Holdsworth brought the bills to us—they were not accepted then; they were brought by Holdsworth, he said he would get them drawn by Ward, and accepted by Berwick, if we would make up our account—the body of the bills is in Holdsworth's writing—they are drawn by Ward and accepted by Berwick—those bills, amounting together to 3774l., represent the amount of our account, as we had made it out up to the date of the bills, in addition to interest for six months—an account was made out for the purpose of ascertaining the amount between us and Holdsworth; I have it in this book—on the 25th of June the amount owing to us was 3656l. 15s. 8d. in cash—we added six months' interest on the bills—this account does not go later, it is made up as you find, the interest account to the 13th of September, which was the day our bills were due, and it is credited and debited to that date—on the 28th of December the amount due was the amount of the bills, 3700l. odd—in cash on the 25th of June, 36505l. was owing—on the 28th of December the bills for 3764l. were due, and 108l. was added for interest upon them—the bills correctly represent the amount due to us on the 28th of December—it is now more than 3700l., on the 25th of June it was less—these bills have been negotiated, and have never been paid—this is my endorsement upon them—Berwick has found no money for the purpose of taking up these bills—the insurances for 5500l. were effected, not on the freight, on the ship—all those transactions were managed by Holdsworth—I saw him several times on the matter—I never saw him at his office—I never was in his office—he always came to us—I do not know Dean—I never heard of him, and never saw him, not in any capacity—I did not know that such a man existed.
Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT ATKINSON. Q. In treating with Holdsworth in this matter, did you treat with him as a broker? A. Yes, all through—we knew him in practice as a broker—we had known him for some years—he divided the brokerage on the charter with us equally, in this transaction as in others—that is the practice among brokers—we first gave an order to Fraser on the 18th of April to insure this vessel for 5000l.—we afterwards gave an order for 500l. further insurance, when we found we had to pay Pirie and Company 418l. 17s.—when, we got into a further advance we insured a further amount to cover it—we had a margin over what we should have had to receive—that is always the practice.
MR. METCALFE. Q. What was the brokage on this transaction? A. Five percent, on 5000l., the amount of freight she did, about 170l.
MR. SOLICITOR-GENERAL. Q. That was what you divided with Holdsworth? A. Yes—we did not divide the commission we charged upon the advance of money, only the commission on the charter—I saw the second charter signed by Ward.
WILLIAM GIBBONS . I am a cashier at the London Joint Stock Bank, Prince's Street, City—this cheque (produced) for 500l., drawn by Thomas Berwick on the 14th of April, 1866, drawn on the Union Bank of Liverpool, was paid through our bank to the account of Smith, Simpson, and Co., and entered to their credit on the 19th of April—in March there is an entry of 500l. to their credit—both cheques were paid by Holdsworth.
EDWARD WARD . I am clerk to my father, Thomas Ward, of 28, Botolph Lane, City—in April, 1866, I assisted in packing and sending off twenty dozen of salt in three barrels—they were addressed to James Oliver, 6, King Street, Liverpool—I delivered them to Fish Street Hill, a receiving
office of the Great Northern Railway—my father trades under the name of Handley, Ward, and Co.—I know Holdsworth and Dean—I have seen Dean with Holdsworth from time to time at their office, and our office too—it was some time ago when I first saw them, I can't remember when—I very often saw them before I sent off the salt: I suppose they called at our office something about the Severn—I was present when they were there—I cannot say how many times I have seen them there, but a good many—I had seen them together a good many times at Holdsworth's office—I did not know Dean as Allsopp and Co.—I know his writing—it was not in consequence of this document (produced) that I packed the salt and sent it off—that is for something else—it is in Dean's handwriting—it relates to some provisions sent down to Newport, and also to one barrel of salt. (This was dated the 16th of Aprils 1866, signed, "Holdsworth and Co., per J. S, Dean"requesting Messrs, Ward to deliver the articles to bearer.) I saw those sent off—it was the same salt as that we sent down to Liverpool, but a different barrel—the provisions and barrel of salt were sent as required to Fish Street Hill Station—they were directed to Messrs. Oliver and Company—this document (produced) is in Dean's writing, and this (another) is in Holdsworth's—I have seen Holdsworth write two or three times. (The first of these was the bill of lading for twelve cases of firearms, and the other was the receipt for the three casks of salt, signed "Holdsworth and Co.") That was the sort of salt I packed (looking at a sample)—it was the same we had been trying to sell—I heard my father say something to Holdsworth about it—he wanted more than it was worth—it was after that that the jars were sent off to Newport—I cannot say whether I have ever had this document in my possession, but I think I have—sometimes we send such orders to give notice to the persons who are to receive it—Holdsworth never gave me this paper—Dean always gave them to me if anything was to be sent off—if I ever had this one Dean gave it to me.
Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. Of your own knowledge did you know of the salt being sent from London to Liverpool? A. Yes; I saw it sent to the railway station—I went with it to the booking-office—it was three casks of meat and one cask of salt—I packed all of them—Dean came down to write the directions, and I put them on—I saw Dean several times, and always thought he was acting as Holdsworth's clerk, and regarded him as such.
ARTHUR WILLIAM SLIGHT . I am the receiving clerk at the Royal Mint Street Station of the Great Northern Company—I huve my books from the Fish Street Hill Station—on the 6th of April last I received three casks of salt addressed to Oliver and Co., Wapping Station, Liverpool—they were loaded in a truck on the Great Northern Railway—in the course of a day or so they would arrive in Liverpool by luggage train.
PHILIP SMART . I am a carman of the Great Northern Railway—on the 6th of April, 1866, I took some casks from Fish Street Hill Station, for Oliver and Co., Liverpool—I delivered them at the Mint Street Station, the station at which the last witness was placed.
WILLIAM WHITBY . I am a salt merchant at Liverpool—I have known Holdsworth for some time past—he was at one time in business at Liverpool—when I last knew him he had a counting-house in King Street, Liverpool—I don't know the number—about February, 1866, he made a bargain with me about some salt—I sold him some in jars—the first time I met him was at Mr. Pryde's office, in the Goree Piazza—he told me to send
the salt to his own place in Botolph Lane, London—I don't remember the number—I believe we sent the salt according to his instructions—I afterwards received this letter from Holdsworth—it is his writing. (This was dated the 19th of March, 1866, acknowledging the receipt of the salt.) This is a sample jar—they were packed in barrels—that was the only transaction I had in salt with Holdsworth—I received 7l. 5s. for it, for forty dozen—that included all I sold—two dozen and two more were supplied—I have known Dean in Liverpool a great number of years—I think he had been chiefly engaged among ereosolt and tar—he had an office—the last office I remember was in Tower Buildings, Water Street—I missed him from Liverpool about two years or two and a half years ago, perhaps three years—I never knew him trading under the firm of Allsopp and Co.—I have not known him by any other name but his own, Joseph Dean.
Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT ATKINSON. Q. Do you recollect Holdsworth saying anything to you about getting you a purchaser for a large ship, that he had tried to and could not? A. No, I never remember anything of the sort—he never asked me if I could get him a purchaser for a large ship—I have known him since 1853—I did business with him in 1853 as a broker—I bought coals from him in 1853.
GEORGE PRYDE . I am a commission agent, of 4, Romford Place, Liverpool—I have known Holdsworth upwards of twenty years as a ship and insurance agent and broker—he had an office in King Street, Liverpool—I have been on friendly terms with him—I received a letter from him in the beginning of April last, which I have destroyed, as I generally do letters when answered—it was on general business, but one part of it was that I should procure some cases to repack some salt—I wrote to him for further directions as to what sort of cases, and received another letter from him which is destroyed, to my knowledge—it stated that there were three or four barrels of salt in jars coming from London, addressed to James E. Oliver, and that I should have the railway note in his office—Olliver and Mr. Holdsworth had an office between them—the letter went on to say that I was to procure cases to repack the salt—no description was given of the size of the cases, in that letter—I have told you all the contents of the second letter as far as I remember—I got the railway note from Holdworth's and Oliver's office, and gave it to a carter to go to the railway station and bring the barrels to Holdsworth's office—he could not get them that day, but he brought them about two days after—they contained jars of salt like these—they were repacked into twelve cases, but before that I received another letter from Holdsworth, which is destroyed, stating that I was to get the cases—no dimensions were given in that letter, but I was in daily communication with Mr. Holdsworth about other business, and was told to get the cases about four feet long—the usual cases for packing goods into are about two feet broad and two feet deep—I bought them of a man named Green, who had a great number, and I picked them out, and they were sent to Holdsworth's office—when I got them there I opened the barrels of saltand filled the cases with them—I found the cases would not hold all, and ordered some more cases, which made up the number to a dozen, the whole of which I packed with jars of salt, and got a joiner from Green's shop to nail them up—the packing was straw and waste paper, and there was iron hooping round the ends—when that was all done I received a letter from Holdsworth, which is also destroyed—he directed me to mark them, but I really forget the mark I put on them now—I remember that I addressed them to
Captain Leyland, ship Severn, Newport, Monmouthshire—I think I should recollect the mark again if I heard it—I think there was a diamond and a W. in it if I remember right, but I really cannot charge my memory—there was an "S" in the corner of the diamond—I forwarded the twelve cases to Newport; I gave them to a carman, who brought back this receipt note. (Produced: dated 27th April, 1866, and signed "William Bell.") William Bell is a servant in the employ of the London and North Western Railway Company—the cases were worth 35s. to 40s., and what was packed in them about 4l., a short time after that I received another letter from Holds worth, it is also destroyed, it was a copy of a contract which I was to make—I copied it, and this is my copy. (This was dated 21st April, 1860: to Messrs. Allsopp, and Co., and signed "George Pryds" stating that he that day sold them, on account of Mr. A. Smith, 500 revolvers, at 20s. each; 200 carbines, at 40s.; 40 sabres, at 10s.; and 200 swords at 10s., in packing cases, which would be delivered by Mr. A. Smith, at Newport, in a few days, on the back of which was a request for an acceptance for the balance of cash on delivery.) I know Messrs. Allsopp and Co.—Mr. Dean is the only person I know of that firm—I do not know what business that firm were carrying on at that time—I knew there was such a firm by Mr. Holdsworth writing to me.
Q. You say, "I have this day sold you on account of Mr. A. Smith;" who is Mr. A. Smith? A. I do not know—I know no such person, or of any such transaction with him as the purchase of these arms.
Q. In your letter to Mr. Holdsworth you say, "Mr. Smith says he will send in the case in a few days, I cannot do better for you;" does that represent any real transaction? A. Not with me—Mr. Cozens, of the Liverpool detective force, came to me, but I did not know who he was; I made a statement to him ultimately.
Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT ATKINSON. Q. You say that you have destroyed all Mr. Holdsworth's letters? A. Yes, immediately after they were answered, and also the draft of the contract—I destroyed them with my own hand in my office—nobody was present—that is not the office of Mr. Oliver—I was in the habit of going to Mr. Oliver's office once a day; Mr. Holdsworth gave me the key of his office to go and call for any letters for him to send to London while he was laid up with sickness—I have heard that Oliver is since dead—his name was on the office door—I know that Mr. Holdsworth had gone up to London to enter into business, and that virtually he had left Liverpool, except for such business as might be sent down there—he left Liverpool for that purpose about the latter end of 1865 I think—I had no thought about this being a very queer transaction—I had never seen Smith—I know now that Cozens is a detective officer—the first time he came to my office I was with Mr. Griffiths—they did not tell me who they were, and Mr. Cozens was the first detective I ever saw in my life—this was about September I should think—I made a statement to Cozens, as I found out afterwards, and also to Mr. Griffiths—I said to him that I had bartered and had business in fire arms—I do not think I told him at that time that a person named Alexander Smith had called on me in the middle of last April, but I did at one time—I did not make that statement to him after I had had the unpleasant conviction that he was a detective—I was under the belief that he and Mr. Griffiths came to see what business I was doing, to take some of it from me—I did not ask them who they were—I made a statement to Mr. Cozens and Mr. Griffiths before I knew what they were—I told him that a person named
Alexander Smith called on me in the middle of last April, but I did not know who Mr. Cozens was—I told Cozens that Smith had samples of firearms with him, and that he asked if I could get a customer, also that I had told Smith that I had tried, and had written to Allsopp and Co., and to John Slater of London, and that I had had letters from Allsopp and Co. to know whether I had seen the articles, also that I had got samples from Smith, and sent them by parcels office to London for approval, and that, after a little disputing as to the price, Messrs. Allsopp agreed to purchase as by the contract, which I then marked A.—I did not give it to Cozens, or produce it at that time—I did not show him a contract at the first interview, when I made the statement to him—I did not know then that he was a detective—the second statement was not to the same effect—at the second statement Cozens produced the contract I had made with Smith for the fire arms—I beg to explain; the first statement was made in ignorance of who Mr. Cozens was, and Mr. Griffiths, and I did not tell them the correct way of it, not knowing who they were; but the second statement, after I knew who Cozens was, I spoke everything as it happened—the first statement was erroneous, a falsehood; and afterwards I told them the second statement, the truth—I did not tell him I had never seen the invoice, but believed the signature, "A. Smith," to be in Smith's writing; I told him I had never seen the invoice produced to me—I will not say whether I told him or not that I believed it to be Smith's writing—I do not think I told Cozen's at the first statement that I had seen Smith write letters—he did not produce the invoice and allude to it till the I second interview—I did not on the second interview tell him I had seen Smith write letters, I forget whether I did at the first—I do not think I told him I had seen him write letters once or twice in my office—I told I him I had some of his writing at present in my office—I said that because I did not know who Cozens ivas—I said that I had never seen I Smith before he called on me last April, and that I did not know where he resided, or where the articles were stored—I never saw the arms, but I stated to Cozens that I did—I told Cozens that in the spring of 1865 I had a small vessel put into Milford Haven in distress—it ended in Captain Taylor being recommended to me as the captain of my vessel—I do not remember telling Cozens that the transaction of the arms with regard to Smith was the only one I had with him—I said at the first interview that Smith appeared to me to be between forty and fifty years of age, about five feet seven, rather short, and speaking with a mixed Irish I and American accent.
Q. And that he had a pale long face, with lightish hair and whiskers, and was shaved under the chin? A. I thought Mr. Cozens was asking me improper questions and I told him anything that came into my mind—I have not been doing that to-day—I am not in the habit of doing it—I thought he was very impertinent in doing it, and did not know who he was—I told him I thought Smith had been dealing in fire arms with the Confederate States, as he gave me to understand he had large quantities in addition to those which he had sold to Allsopp—not a word of that was true as regards Smith.
Q. I observe that when you forwarded this to London you said, "Dear Sir, I send contract as arranged; Mr. Smith says he will send over the cases in a few days:" is that true? A. Yes, that is my writing—the contents of it are true, that I could do no better for him and that I would send off the cases in a few days—that was according to my instructions—it is
not true that I had bargained with Smith and that he told me he would send them off, but those were my instructions—I did not sign Smith's name to any document that went down to the railway—I did not sign it to a shipping order: I swear that—I was formerly a ship master and afterwards a ship chandler—I have not been successful in business this last fifteen years—I have failed and have been bankrupt—a question was not put to me in one of my examinations at the Bankruptcy Court about my signature to a certain bill of exchange—I never denied my signature—the light first dawned on me that Cozens was a detective, at the second interview I had with him—he did not say that I was deceiving him—he did not say, "I have found you out;" nothing of the sort.
Q. Mind, he is coming, be careful what you are about; did not he say that he had found you out, and that you had told him a parcel of lies? A. I do not remember his saying so; I am almost sure he did not—I do not remember his giving me a short time to make up my mind whether I would tell the truth; I say that he did not say so to me—I do not remember his saying that if I did not tell the truth by the following Monday it would go hard with me, and I should not know the last of it till the end of my days; he did not say anything to that effect—I came up to London after that and sought an interview with Mr. Holdsworth—I told him I had been waited on by two persons about some salt—I did not tell him I was sorry I had implicated him about some salt—I never told him I thought of destroying myself—I did not tell him before I went back that I seriously thought of destroying myself—I had nothing to fear in the matter—I may have asked him to give me some money—I did not ask him for 50l.—I had had transactions with him in business and the balance was in my favour—I asked him for some money and got 15l. sent me—I did not tell him that I had been spoken to by Cozens, who had insured my freedom.
Q. Did you tell him that Cozens or some person had said to you that not only would you have your freedom insured, but your claim admitted on the Friend-in-Need Insurance Company for the St. George? A. No, not about my freedom—nothing was said about the St. George that I remember—Cozens said nothing whatever to me about my claim on the Friend-in-Need for 250l. to the St. George being satisfied.
MR. GIFFARD, After you had the conversation with Cozens when you did not know that he was a detective, did you write to Holdsworth? A. I did—when I saw him afterwards in London I knew from him that he had received my letter—the St. George was a brigantine; she was lost—Holdsworth had nothing to do with her that I know of.
CHARLOTTE ANDERSON . I live at 6, King Street, Liverpool—I knew Holdsworth when he had an office there—I remember seeing a number of cases at his office—I cannot say how many—I have seen Pryde at the office—I recollect his giving me three empty barrels for firewood—I saw them when they were filled with jars of salt, of the character produced—I recollect the cases leaving, I saw them go down stairs—I do not remember how long they had remained there before I saw them removed.
Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT ATKINSON. Q. I believe you never saw Holdsworth there during the whole time of the cases being there? A. I saw him just after the cases went away; he was away for months at a time—Mr. Pryde went backwards and forwards there—he had possession of the office and had the keys, and went in and came out as he liked.
MR. GIFFARD. Q. Do you remember Holdsworth coming there after
they had gone? A. Yes—I do not recollect remarking anything particular the day after the cases left—he burnt some papers when he was there.
PATRICK GRACE . I am a packing-case maker, of 68, Duke Street, Liverpool—I recollect making twelve cases to be delivered at an office in King Street, Liverpool—it is an office—I saw the name of Holdsworth and Oliver on the door—it was No. 6 building—they were made by my men in my shop—I delivered four cases first on 12th April; they were two feet six inches long, seventeen inches deep, and sixteen inches wide, outside measurement—they were called in the trade four dozen ale and porter cases—upon the 12th of the same month I delivered two cases of the same description, and on the 23rd four of the same size, and two which were five inches and a half longer, but the same width and depth as the others—Mr. Pryde paid me for four in person, and paid my man the remainder—they were iron-bound, with a hoop at each end—I made some similar cases as specimens—this is the sort of case from the same stock (produced).
MICHAEL MAGRATH . I work for Mr. Grace—I recollect delivering twelve cases at Mr. Oliver's office, 6, King Street—"T. Oliver" is on the door—after the boxes were packed I was sent to nail them up—I noticed that they were packed with straw and newspapers—I nailed them down.
WILLIAM BELL . I am a clerk at the Duke Dock, Liverpool—I received on 27th April, 1866, twelve cases, addressed "Captain Leyland, Ship Severn, Newport"—the note was signed" A. Smith"—I remarked the weight in the note at the time—it was 1 lewt. lqr.—they were marked W in a diamond, and S in the corner, and numbered from one to twelve—they were sent by Great Western Railway to Newport.
JOSEPH SMITH . I am a goods agent at the Monmouth Railway at Newport—they act as agents for the Great Western Railway for delivery at Newport—I produce the waybill of twelve cases sent from Liverpool to Newport, dated 27th April, 1866; it is from Smith to Captain Leyland, ship Severn, Newport Dock—Smith was the consignor—they were imarked W in a. diamond, S in the corner, and numbered from one to twelve—there was 1l. 2s. 6d. freight to pay—those cases were received in Newport on the 30th of April, and were delivered to our agents, Pickford and Co., at Newport—I also received on the 18th of April a cask of salt, addressed to Leyland—I have got the waybill of that—it came from Camden Station, and was delivered to the carriers to be forwarded—on the same invoice were three cases of preserved provisions and some barrels of beef
GEORGE MARLEY . I am clerk to Pickford and Co., delivery agents of Newport—on 30th April 1 received from Liverpool twelve cases, addressed to Captain Leyland, ship Severn Newport Dock, marked W in a diamond, with S in the corner—I gave them in charge to Arthur Roper, my carman—I have the delivery book—he went away with his cart, and brought back his book to me with a receipt for the goods—on 18th April there is a signature for a cask of salt in the same book.
ARTHUR ROPER . I am a carman to Messrs. Pickford and Co. at Newport—on the 7th of May I took twelve cases from their premises and delivered them on board the Severn's boat—I did not go on board the ship—I gave the sailors the delivery book to take on board and have it signed, and they brought it back to me signed.
is Webb's writing: "Charles W. Lee Webb, chief officer"—the signature on the 6th of April is also Webb's writing.
JOHN PINKERTON . I am a commission agent, of Howland Street, Fitzroy Square—last April I had a conversation with Dean in reference to some lire arms, and it ended in my telling him to write to me what he wanted, and I would see what I could do in the matter—I received this note on the same day: "London, 23rd April, 1866. Dear Sir,—The following particulars are what I mentioned to you to-day, upon which we want an advance for China: viz., 500 revolvers at 30s. each, 200 carbines at 5s. each, 200 sabres at 5s. each, 300 swords at 10s. each; samples to be seen at our office. An early reply will oblige. T. Holdsworth and Co., per J. S. Dean." I got a card from Dean, but gave it up at the Mansion House; it was similar to this. (Produced: "Holdsworth and Co., Commission Agents, Fenchurch Street, London.") I afterwards called in Fenchurch Street to see Dean, and I told him I had not succeeded in getting the advance for him—he showed me some samples at that time, a revolver, a sword, and some other things, which I cannot remember—he told me that the goods of which those were samples were either on board or going on board one of their own ships, for Hong Kong or Shanghae, from Newport—I had known Dean before this transaction—I was introduced to him on another matter of business—I knew, from what he told me, what his business was—I said that I hoped he was going on well—he said yes; first-rate, buying and selling ships, and that he had given tip colliery commissions.
WILLIAM JAMES HILL . I am a gun and pistol maker at 9, St. Mary's Road, Birmingham—I know Holdsworth and Dean—I have received letters from Holdsworth at different times—in consequenceof a letter I received from him I came up to London, and went to 146, Fenchurch Street, to see Holdsworth and Dean—I think Captain Downward has the tetter—I don't know What day it was, I think it was in April—I never heard of any firm of Allsopp and Co.—Holdsworth spoke to me first when I went into the office, and afterwards Dean—Holdsworth asked me my name—I said that I was Mr. Hill, of Birmtegham; that I was sorry my samples had not been delivered, which was in consequence of the number of the premises being given to me 140, instead of 146—Holdsworth did not show me any thing, but I saw patterns; a pistol and a sword—the maker's name was Philip Webley and Son—they are gunmakers at Birmingham—Holdsworth said it was anfortunate that my patterns had not been delivered in time, as they were compelled to oreder elsewhere—they told me they had purchased a ship, and it was bound for Shanghae—he did not say what the ship was to carry, but that the guns and pistols were for the ship—they said there were 500 revolvers and 800 swords—Holdsworth said he had ordered them from Webley's—he did not tell me where they had been sent—he Said that if I could leave my samples he would see the captain, and ask him if he thought it advisable to take out more arms than had been already ordered, and I left four or five revolvers as a sample—Dean was present at each interview I had; he took part in the conversation—I went back two of three hours after, to know the result before leaving London—he said the captain thought there were quite sufficient ordered, and he wolild not give a further order—I afterwards wrote a letter to Mr. Holdsworth, and received this letter (produced) in reply:—"W. J. Hill, Esq. Dear Sir,—We regret that we have been unable unable to induce our friends to ship any more revolvers for the presons, or
we should have been glad to send an order. Perhaps we shall another time be more successful. Shall we send the pistols to your order, or shall we send them to our friends at Shanghae as sample patterns, which might lead to future business? (Signed) Holdsworth and Co."I received an order from Holdsworth about July, and sent 100 revolvers by rail—the revolvers of which I took up the samples would weigh from 1 1/3 lb. to 21b., the carbines about 111b., and the sabres about 31b.
Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT ATKINSON. Q. Is it a long time since this conversation occurred: was it not about the beginning of last year? A. About April—Holdsworth did not say his friend had been supplied elsewhere—nothing to that effect, that I remember—I saw Mr. Webley's name on the samples, and it was mentioned by both of them—they both joined in the conversation—I saw Mr. Webley's name on the arms, and they, seeing me looking at it, said they had given out the order to "that party"—they did not mention Webley's name.
Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. How long had you known Dean? A. I had not known him at all previously—I did not know Holdsworth before that—the letter I received was signed by Dean, for Holdsworth and Co.—I always received Dean as Holdsworth's clerk.
PHILIP WEBLEY . I am a gunmaker, of Birmingham, trading as Webley and Sons—I know the prisoners Holdsworth and Dean—I am not aware that I sent any guns to either of them in March or April last, nor any revolvers or carbines; or to the firm of Allsopp and Co.—there is not another Webley in the trade in Birmingham.
ROBERT MAGNET . I live in Monmouthshire—I am a steam-tug owner and shipmaster—I also keep the Commercial Hotel, near the Newport Dock—in consequence of a letter I received in March last I looked out for the arrival of the ship Severn—I remember her arrival at Newport on 6th March—Captain Shields was the master then, and he lived at my house—the ship laid at the outer dock at first—a few days after her arrival I saw two persons besides the captain on board the ship—I did not know who they were at the time, but I do now—they were Holdsworth and Berwick—they went over the vessel—I went over part of it with them—they did not go into the lower hold; they went between decks—I suppose they were on board a little over an hour—some time after that I remember walking with Captain Shields to the railway station—as nearly as I can recollect, it was the 19th or 20th of the month—I remember Captain Leyland coming to lodge at my house; it was on the 21st—this bill (produced) is against him for what he had there—I believe it was the day before I went to the railway station that he came—I saw a train arrive, and saw Holdsworth, Berwick, and Webb get out of a carriage—they had some nautical instruments with them—I don't know whether Holdsworth came to my house a day or two after with Captain Leyland, but he was there at the same time—my tug took the Severn out into the roads; she was in a good seaworthy state, as far as I could see.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. How often were Holdsworth and Berwick on board the vessel? A. I cannot say—I only saw them at the time I mentioned—I never saw Berwick in Leyland's company—I have seen Holdsworth with him—I cannot say how many times—I never saw Holdsworth, Berwick, and Leyland together.
Cross-examined by MR. KEMP. Q. Was this ship too long to be moored to the buoys? A. No; she was moored to them—I am quite sure of that—there are three large buoys, and part of the time she was moored
to two of them—I remember her leaving; it was in the afternoon—I saw I her leave; she touched the ground in going out—I am sure she did not strike on one of the buoys.
Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT ATKINSON. Q. Were the buoys ironbound? A. There were no buoys when the vessel went out—the buoys to which the vessel was moored were wood buoys, iron-bound—there would be one at each end of the ship.
Re-examined by MR. SOLICITOR-GENERAL. Q. Were those buoys to which vessels are moored? A. Yes; they were ordinary buoys—she was moored alongside to take in her cargo—she was moored to the buoys after she was loaded, and after that she was taken out of dock into the roads—she laid there, and was then towed out—as far as I know she did not receive any injury from the buoys before she went out.
COURT. Q. Was the place where she touched the ground near where she was moored? A. No; it was in the river—there were no buoys in the river.
JAMES WILMOTT . I am a shipbuilder of Newport—I have known Berwick and Holdsworth some years past—I have seen them at Newport, London, Liverpool, and all about—I have never known them in business together—I remember the Severn being at Newport in March, 1866—I saw Holdsworth there about 19th March—I had some conversation with him on the evening of the 19th—he told me he was staying at the King's Head Hotel—on the next day I called there to see him—I went into the coffee-room to see if he was there, and I saw Berwick there—Holdsworth was not there—we had some talk on general subjects, and I asked him if he was the owner of the Severn—he said,"No"—he said that he was passing through Newport—I was with him perhaps a quarter of an hour—I saw Holdsworth that afternoon—I was at the hotel the next day—I had to pass it on my way to dinner—I went in and I saw Berwick; Holdsworth was not there—I did not talk to Berwick about Holdsworth—I met Holdsworth afterwards—Berwick did not tell me where he was going from Newport—he only said he was going away—I did not see him again after that day, or Holdsworth either—I met Holdsworth that day in the street, but never saw either of them in Newport afterwards.
Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT ATKINSON. Q. You are in the, ship-building business, are you not? A. Yes, and so is my father—I had known Holdsworth many years in business, in owning ships, that is all—I knew him about the time he was in Newport—he was in treaty with a shipbuilding company about the price of a large new ship—he was trying to find a purchaser for her at that moment—that was the business I had to meet him on—he would have earned his commission on that—we had several interviews about it, and he came backwards and forwards about it to Newport—it was about this time that the Severn was there—we always had a very high opinion of Mr. Hoidsworth, after many years' dealings with him.
EMILY MOON . I am barmaid of the King's Head Hotel, Newport—I was there on the 1st of March, 1866—I assisted the housekeeper in keeping the books and taking the money from the customers—of all the servants who were then at the hotel, I am the only one remaining—I know Holdsworth, and I know a person named Wilmott, who came to the hotel and made inquiries for somebody there about the middle of March—Holdsworth Was staying there at that time—Wilmott went into the coffee-room on that occasion—I don't know that there was any one staying at the hotel in company
with Holdsworth at the time—there were two or three persons staying there—I fancy Berwick was with Holdsworth in the coffee-room—I think I recollect him—Holdsworth paid for three persons dinners on 21st March—two gentlemen left on the same day, and one of them was Holdsworth.
ELIZABETH EVANS . I am the wife of Mr. H. Evans, of 32, Raven Street, Mile End Road—on 2nd March last year Webb came and lodged with us till the 20th—I remember a gentleman calling on him one morning—he wore a grey coat—I should not know him again—I do not recognise him among the prisoners—I thought Berwick was him, but am not certain—I think they both went out together—Webb told me that that gentleman had called again one morning when I was out—he told me late one Monday night that he was going next morning—he told me and my husband on Monday night that he was going in a ship called the Severn, bound for China, and was going to join the Severn at Newport—he returned on the 2nd of August and brought the witness Holland with him—they remained at my house till 27th September—when he left he told me that I might expect him back in ten months.
Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Have you any belief whatever as to who the person was who called on Webb? A. I am not certain—I have no belief in the matter—whoever it was, he only stayed ten minutes—I did not see him at all that time; they were in Webb's room.
Cross-examined by MR. KEMP. Q. When Webb returned in September did you see Captain Leyland there from time to time? A. In August; yes, I never saw the captain with any book like this log (produced), or with any book—there were a few things belonging to Captain Leyland that I was to have washed for him—he did not wish to see Webb—he came when Webb was out—he came twice—on the second occasion he saw Webb in my presence—Leyland did not come more than twice to my knowledge, but he may have called when I was out.
Re-examined by MR. SOLICITOR-GENERAL. Q. Do you say that Leyland asked you to do washing for him? A. Yes, Webb had a few things which he wanted washed, and which he had gathered up with his own—he gave them to me to get washed, and Captain Leyland called for them afterwards—Webb was not at home on that occasion—I told him so—a few days afterwards he called again, because his things were not ready on the first occasion—he then took them away—those are the only occasions, as far as I know, that he called.
JOHN WILLIAM DOLAN . I am waiter at Anderton's Hotel, City—Holdsworth lodged there in March last—he came on 13th February and stayed until the 9th of March—when he left he said that he was going to Newport—he returned again on the 12th—Berwick also came there about the 12th and stopped until about the 20th—they were stopping there together, and left at the same time, to the best of my recollection.
MR. SERJEANT ATKINSON. Q. Do you recollect Holdsworth telling you that he was going to reside permanently in London? A. Yes—he had stopped in the hotel for a couple of years from time to time.
JEREMIAH FORSDYKE . I am a carpenter and builder, of 5 King's Place, Commercial Road—I know Berwick and Webb—in October, 1866, I was present at Webb's wedding at Whitechapel—Berwick was also there—I lunched with the party after the wedding—I knew Webb before, but not I Berwick—I accompanied Webb's wife after his arrest to their house in
the Approach Road, Victoria Park—I was present when Mrs. Webb asked Berwick if he was going to see Charles, meaning her husband—he said no, he could not go—she said, "I am authorised by him to come to you for some money"—he said, "I have no money"—with that I said, "Mr. Berwick, have not you any money belonging to Charles Webb?"—he said, "No"—I said, "Has he never deposited any money from his savings in your hands?"—he said, "Never"—I said, "It is very strange he should have sent his wife here for money if you had not some in reserve for him"—he said, "I have none, I have none for myself; if he wants any money he must go to Smith and Simpson's for it."
Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Were you a friend of Mrs. Webb; what on earth had you to do with this; was it only a kindly interest you took in the bride, or what business was it of yours? A. What business was it for Mr. Webb to invite me to the wedding?—I got 100l. for giving information.
MR. SOLICITOR-GENERAL. Q. For what was it that the 100l. was received by you? A. For giving information where Berwick resided—that was the place where I had called upon Berwick with Mrs. Webb—there was a reward offered to anybody who would give information—it was an act of kindness that I went to Berwick's house with Mrs. Webb, as I believed Webb to be an instrument of Berwick's.
JAMES RUDD . I am a waiter at Mullen's Hotel, Ironmonger Lane—I knew Holdsworth and Berwick—I have seen them at our hotel together—they have both stayed there, but not together—when Holdsworth has been staying there I have not seen Berwick there, but at the time Berwick was staying there I have seen Holdsworth there—I cannot recollect how long ago—I have got the copies of Berwick's bills—this book (produced) proves that on 4th August, 1866, Mr. Holdsworth called to see Berwick, who was not at home.
Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT ATKINSON. Q. I believe, Holdsworth was an old customer at the hotel? A. Yes, he has been there many times.
WILLIAM BROWN . I am a tailor, and live at Pembroke Villas, Bayswater—I let part of my house as lodgings—I know Holdsworth—he and his wife came to lodge at my house in July last—Mrs. Holdsworth still continues to lodge there—Holdsworth left my house about the middle of October—I did not see him afterwards until he was at the Mansion House—I have known him since last June or July.
JOHN TALBOT BENTON . I am manager to Mrs. Southey, a stationer, of 140, Fenchurch Street—I know Holdsworth—he occupied one room in my first floor back—he took it at the beginning of 1866—he remained there till just before the end of September—in September or October he went away—he did not give me any notice of his going whatever—I did not see him again till he was in custody and I was examined as a witness—I know Dean—he came to the office frequently—"Holdsworth" only was on the door, and Holdsworth alone paid the rent.
SAMUEL CACKETT . I live at 29, Approach Road, Victoria Road, Victoria Park—I know Berwick—he took apartments of me on 28th September, and came to sleep there on the 30th—he stayed till Mr. Webb's marriage, and then he was away a week, when he returned, and remained until he wan apprehended—he was alone there—he paid 12s. a week for his lodging—Webb came there once after they came back from Jersey, after the wedding—he came to see Mr. Berwick.
Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. Q. Did he remain at your house
till he was apprehended? A. Yes—that was between five and six in the evening, on a Tuesday in October.
FREDERICK PEARS . I act as agent for Elizabeth Mithover—I believe she is the owner of 101, Leadenhall Street—she certainly has an interest in it—I was concerned in letting an office under this agreement (produced) to Dean—I saw him about it—I had not known him before—Mr. Marshall was present on one occasion—Dean negotiated the agreement himself—after it was negotiated I saw the name of Allsopp and Co. on the door; he did not enter till after the agreement was executed—it is signed by him. (This was dated 2nd August, 1866, and was an agreement by J. M. Dean, trading as Allsopp and Co., to take the premises at 20l. per annum.)
EDWARD JOHN MANUEL . I live at 6, Dobson Terrace, New Street, Kennington—Dean took one room on the third floor of my house about the latter end of May, at 5s. a week—I believe he and his wife slept I there—they lived there until the October following—he told me that he was a shipping agent in the City, and I understood from him that he was in partnership, and he spoke of Mr. Holdsworth as his partner.
Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. What did he say of Holdsworth? A. He said he had influence in the City, and spoke of Holdsworth as his partner, but not directly being partners with him—he said he was in the habit of going daily to his office—I do not know whether it was his office or Holdsworth's—he did not say that Holdsworth was his partner in express terms, but he said he had some transactions in the City in connection with Mr. Holdsworth, his partner, that he had influence through Holdsworth, and that his name was good—I heard him mention the name of Allsopp and Co. in August, on the night of his birthday—I did not I hear that Allsopp and Co. was the firm he had connection with—he merely said he had been to the office of Allsopp and Co., of Leadenhall Street.
MR. GIFFARD. Q. What were the words which you say were indirectly referring to Holdsworth, his partner? A. He was speaking of the position he held in the City, and that in connection with Mr. Holdsworth, his partner, he would have some weight—I never heard him mention Holdsworth as his partner except in the way of conversation—he did not say, "Mr. Holdsworth, my partner"—he was merely speaking of himself in connection with Mr. Holdsworth, and he led me to think he was speaking of Holdsworth as his partner.
MR. RIBTON to MR. PRYDE. Q. You say you did not know Allsopp and Co., except from Holdsworth's writing to you? A. Yes—I had not dealings with them in August with which Holdsworth had nothing to do (looking at a letter)—I still say that I had no independent dealings with Allsopp and Co. till after that transaction—I had several letters from them in August—I had dealings with them about tar and creosote, things of that sort—this is not one of many letters—there were negotiations between us—I wrote to the firm of Allsopp and Co., Leadenhall Street.
MR. SOLICITOR-GENERAL. Q. Did you ever know them to write from Leadenhall Street until August? A. No—the other transactions I have spoken of with Allsopp and Co. were through Holdsworth.
JAMES FRASER . I am an insurance broker and underwriter, of 32, Nicholas Lane, City—my partner is John Macbride—he was in partnership with me in the beginning of 1866—I have known Holdsworth some time, and have had business transactions with him as an insurance broker—I
never saw Berwick before to my knowledge, but have known him by name through Holdsworth—I had done business with Holdsworth with reference to insurances before this one on the Severn, in which he has mentioned Berwick's name—we had received money from Holdsworth before March, 1866, and had got moneys in hand—in consequence of instructions we received, we effected, as agents, an insurance for 8000l. for Smith and Simpson—of that, 4000l. was effected at Lloyd's, and 1000l. with the Bristol Insurance Company—the date of those insurances is 29th May, 1866; these are them (produced)—there is another for 500l., which we did not do, and were not aware that it was done at all—we effected insurances, by Holdsworth's instructions, also on the hull of the vessel—in addition to the 8000l., there was 8400l. or 8500l.—it is in foreign money, and I have called it 8400l.—the 1000l. was at Lloyd's of Rotterdam, a Dutch policy, dated 30th April, 1866, on the hull of the vessel—they are both underwriters and a company—it is in Dutch, and I think it is for 12,000 guilders, but will not be positive—the next is an Amsterdam policy at the Dutch Lloyd's, for 11,200 guilders, which is equivalent to 900l.—that is about the same date—they are both underwriters and a company as well—there was also 800l. with British underwriters at Cardiff, dated June 4th, 1866; 500l. at Glasgow with the London and Caledonian, dated 25th April, 1866; and 300l. with private underwriters at Glasgow, on 25th April; that makes, with the other money, 8500l.—in April, 1866, we received this letter; we do not know the signers at all. (This was dated 23rd April, 1866, and requested Messrs. James Fraser and Co. to effect the following insurance: 5000l. on the ship Severn, bound for Shanghae, A 1, Lloyd's; and 2000l. on her freight, valued at 6000l. Signed, "Thomas Ward and Co.") We effected 3600l. on the freight, by Holdsworth's orders, and not quite 5000l. on the ship—the things I insured for Holdsworth's order were in consequence of that letter, not separate orders—we found very great difficulty in effecting the whole amount of insurance on the freight, and communicated that difficulty to Holdsworth—when we had insured 3500l. we found we could not do any more, but we said that we might do it on the freight, if that would suit him, because the freight was more easily insured than the hull of the vessel—he said he thought that would do; as there was only 8500l. insured upon her, he thought she was not fully covered—we succeeded in getting the insurance for 3400l. on the freight, giving us the insurance in effect—we insured 1000l. with the Accidental and Marine Insurance Corporation Limited on 21st May, 1860, on the freight; 1000l. with the Universal Marine Insurance Company, whose policy is in your hands I think; the loss was paid and the policy returned—we also effected 300l. at Lloyd's, whose policy I have got, and Mr. Douglas did all the rest—I have got the policy, dated 31st May, 1866—I got Mr. Douglas to effect three insurances for 1300l.; I have the policies here; one is 300l. at Lloyd's, May 31st, 1866; 500l. with the Albert Insurance, May 15th, 1866; and 500l. with the Home and Colonial, 18th May, 1866—all these insurances were effected for or by us on the hull and freight, for which purpose we had to find the money for the premiums—we found it from funds which we were in the course of collecting for the loss of the Jane Brown, by Holdsworth's instructions—we had moneys in our hands to the credit of the Jane Brown—we never knew Ward and Co. in our dealings with the Jane Brown as having an interest in her—this cheque (produced) was drawn by my partner and endorsed by Berwick—we may have had a letter
from Berwick, but I cannot remember his writing. (Mr. Simpson here stated that the endorsement was in Berwick's writing. Read: dated 10th February, 1866, drawn by J. Fraser and Co., on the London Joint Stock Bank, in favour of Thomas Berwick or order, for 500l., and endorsed, "Thomas Berwick") I believe that cheque was delivered by my partner to Holdsworth—there was no other account on which it could be drawn besides the account I have mentioned—we paid about 800l., in round numbers, for premiums for insurances for Holdsworth, as distinguished from Smith and Simpson—Smith and Simpson paid their own money for their premiums—about two-thirds of the premiums were paid out of the moneys in my hands on account of the Jane Brown—we had a current account with Holdsworth—I had nothing whatever to do with the insurances effected by Sir J. Pirie and Co. on the freight; they were wholly independent—Holdsworth produced this letter to me about the date of it—he said some friends of his had got cases to be shipped in the Severn, and, as we had already effected the insurances on the ship and freight, we might probably be better able to effect them—my reply was that if he would get his friends to write a letter of order we would do the best we could. (Letter read: "London, 12th May, 1866. Messrs. James Fraser and Co. Dear Sirs,—We will thank you to effect insurances for us on the following goods, shipped by the Severn: 500 revolvers, 200 carbines, 200 sabres, 200 swords, for 1500l., and valued thereat. We trust you will do this at as low a rate as possible." Signed, "Allsopp and Co.") We were unsuccessful in effecting the insurance, but Mr. Douglas succeeded by our direction in effecting it at the London and Caledonian Marine Insurance Company for 1500l. (which is in London and Glasgow) on the goods according to that order—these were all valued policies—the premium was found by us out of the same funds, and we communicated to Holdsworth that we had effected that policy—we heard afterwards at Lloyd's of the loss of the Severn—after the ship was reported lost we saw Holdsworth, about 10th August, but I really am not certain, my partner will speak to that—after Holdsworth had spoken to me about the loss of the ship he handed me some documents for the purpose of applying to the underwriters to get the insurances—I never saw the log-book or any of these documents—my partner did—I went out of town on the 20th of August—I received the 1000l. from the Universal about the beginning of August—about 700l. of that was paid to Holdsworth.
Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. Q. Did you see any one but Holdsworth in any part of the transaction? A. No, neither before, while effecting the insurances, or afterwards—the insurances Smith, Simpson, and Co. directed us to effect were paid by cheque—we had a regular current account with them; and all the others, whether effected by us or Mr. Douglas, were debited to Holdsworth personally—the cheque dated February, 1866, paid by us to Holdsworth has nothing to do with the Severn at all—it was not paid out of the Severn money.
Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT ATKINSON. Q. Did Holdsworth act as broker in the transaction? A. I knew him as such—we had the utmost confidence in him—I think in this instance we did not share the commission with him according to the ordinary practice: we had in previous transactions, but in this instance we could have got as much as we liked without dividing—the Severn was 1235 tons, and a little over ten years old I think—I have never seen her—a great deal would depend on her condition, and what had been paid for her, as to whether 10,000l. would
be the proper value for her—between 6000l. and 7000l. was paid for her, and then there would be fitting to go to sea—the cost would run up to 10,000l.
COURT. Q. I do not quite understand what you mean by the funds of the Jane Brown paying the premiums: you put the premiums to the account you had with Holdsworth? A. Yes, and the money we received from the Jane Brown on the other side, whether the premiums were to the same account or not, that would be done in dealing with any broker—the fact of the Jane Brown putting us in funds does not show us where it came from. Adjourned.
Saturday, February 2nd, 1867.
JOHN MACBRIDE . I am Mr. Fraser's partner—I remember Holdsworth coming to me about an insurance on the Severn—I saw him frequently in connection with that insurance—I did not know Webb in any way—this document was placed in my hands for the purpose of effecting an insurance on the arms—I assisted in getting the insurances effected—after I had heard of the loss of the Severn I saw Holdsworth; he gave me instructions as to the collecting the insurance on the loss—he gave me certain books and documents to present to the underwriters—he produced a log-book, and I believe this one (produced) to be it—I believe that document (the account for the arms for 1225l., marked A.a.) was produced to me by Holdsworth, and this one also (the bill of lading for the arms)—I also received the Pernambuco protest—they were delivered to me in the beginning of August—I laid the log-book and the protest before the Universal Marine Insurance Company—after that I handed the documents I had received to Mr. Douglas; he had effected some of the insurances for me.
Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT ATKINSON. Q. Did you know Mr. Holdsworth carried on business as an insurance broker? A. As a broker simply—he was known in the City as a broker—I had never heard anything unfavourable of him—it would be death to a man in the City if anything was known against him—the commission on the transaction would be divided with him.
MR. SOLICITOR-GENERAL. Q. This document (produced) is in the writing of Holdsworth? A. I believe it is (marked 30).
LOUIS LUPTON . I am an insurance broker at Lloyd's—I saw Holdsworth with reference to insurances on the Severn—it was for 500l. on the ship, in the Friend-in-Need—I did 500l. for Holdsworth and 500l. for Smith, Simpson, and Co.—this is Holdsworth's policy (produced: dated the 18th of May)—Smith, Simpson, and Co. have theirs—the ship is valued at 10,000l.—Holdsworth did not call on me—I saw him in Smith and Simpson's office—the premium was not paid, I paid it—after I had the order from Smith, Simpson, and Co. for the 500l. Holdsworth asked me if I could do any more, and I did 500l. more—I had some conversation with Holdsworth as to who were the owners—Ward and Co. were represented to be the owners.
GEORGE DOUGLAS . I am an insurance broker—I effected the insurance of 500l. on twelve cases of arms, at the request of Messrs. Fraser—I first heard of the loss of the Severn when I saw it posted up at Lloyd's—I think it was in August, but I don't remember the date—I afterwards received some documents from Fraser and Co.—I received this log-book, the protest,
the bill of lading, and a document purporting to be an invoice—these are the documents, and this has all the appearance of the log-book I received:—it was a book like this—this is the contract—that was also produced—I placed these documents before the underwriters—I handed them to the officer of the London and Caledonian for settlement.
WILLIAM FENN . I am second underwriter of the London and Caledonian Marine Insurance Society—after the loss of the Severn was reported received some documents from Mr. Douglas for the purpose of laying before the underwriters—that was for the purpose of recovering the amount insured on the firearms—these are the documents, and this is the log-book—I don't know whether the dock receipt was delivered to me, but I saw it at the office.
WILLIAM COZENS . I am an inpsector of the detective department of the Liverpool police—I have known Berwick as a resident of Liverpool for many years, at 25, the Willows—I also knew Holdsworth at Liverpool for some years—I knew him to have an office in Tower Buildings—in October, 1866, I received instructions to look for Berwick and Holdsworth—I did so, but could not find either of them at Liverpool—I went to 25, the Willows, where Berwick had resided—I saw the servant—on the 31st of October I went there and searched the house—that was after I had heard of Berwick's apprehension—I found a large number of papers there, and took possession of them—I found this amongst them. (Read: "146, Fen-church Street, London, 2nd July, 1867. My dear Berwick,—Why don't you write? Have you heard from the clubs, or has the elephant hit you too hard, that you are knocked into a cocked hat? Telegram from Leyland will be here at seven p.m. Too late to write. Give me all the news. Lots of money wanted for crew, &c. If you have any to spare send it up. Yours truly, L. H.") I went to No. 6, King Street, the office Holdsworth had occupied, or part of an office—I went there two or three times to look for him in the early part of October—the first time I went into the office there was a large number of papers there on the wall and hanging about the desk—when I went on a subsequent occasion they were removed, and I found fragments of papers burnt in the grats.
Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. When was it you first went to Berwick's house in Liverpool? A. Some time in October—I can't give you the actual day, but I was there from day to day, watching—it was early in October—that was not when I went up and searched the bedroom where his wife had just been confined—that was on the 31st of October, after I heard he was in custody—his wife had then been confined three or four days I think—I did not search the bed in which she was, or take the child out—I swear solemnly I never touched the child—I told her that her husband was in custody—I don't know anything about the reward—I have heard of it since—I am not aware whether I had heard of it then or not—I think I must—we had no printed bills or anything of that sort—I believe I had heard of it—I have no doubt of it—I was not quite sure at the moment—I have refreshed my memory—probably I had heard of it a week or a few days before—I knew that I could not find him in Liverpool—I did not know that he was not there—I was not certain that he was not in his own house—I referred to this letter at the Mansion House, but I don't think it was produced—to my knowledge this is the first time it has been read in the presence of the prisoners.
Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT ATKINSON. Q. You say you paid a visit to Holds worth's office, and saw some papers there? A. Yes—I went
in search of him—I would have taken him if I had found him there—I did not look over the papers—he was not in custody, and I did not like to do so—I had no instructions to do so—I don't think I was looking after Berwick at that time—I think it was a little before I was looking after Berwick—I found a woman who cleaned the office there, Mrs. Anderson—failing to find Holdsworth, I placed myself in communication with Pryde some time after—it might have been a week—I think it was about eight or ten days after—I told him I was instructed to make inquiries about this matter—he did not know me—he asked my name and I gave it him—I had not known him—I told him I resided at Liverpool, but did not tell him what I was—he made a communication to me on that day, the 24th of September—it was in writing—it is here—he afterwards made another, also in writ-ing, about eight or ten days after—I told him I was not satisfied with the first one—on the first occasion I had Griffiths with me—he is here—he is not an officer—I did not tell Pryde if he did not satisfy me I should take him into custody—I told him I was not satisfied with his statement, I wanted some further information.
HENRY WEBB (City Detective). I received a warrant from the Mansion House on the 18th of October for Dean's apprehension—I went to his office, 10l., Leadenhall Street—he was not there, and a reward of 100l. was offered for his apprehension—in consequence of information I received I found him at Malpas Road, New Cross, Surrey—I went to his office several times in the meantime, but failed to find him there—when I saw him I asked him if his name was Dean, and he said it was—I told him I was a detective officer (this was on the 29th of October), and that I held a warrant for his apprehension, for being concerned with Lionel Holdsworth and others in casting away a ship, likewise for endeavouring to obtain money from the Caledonian Insurance Office. (The witness's deposition was here read, at Mr. Ribton's request as follows:) "I am one of the detective officers of the City of London Police Force—I received a warrant from the Mansion House Justice-room on the 18th of October, instant, for the apprehension of the prisoner, describing him as Joseph Stansfield 'Dean, otherwise William Allsopp, and since that time I have been seeking him—I have called at his office, at No. 10l., Leadenhall Street, and failed to see him there—the name of William Allsopp and Co. is on the front door, and on the door of a room on the second floor back—there was a reward of 100l. offered for his apprehension, and from information I received I went with Serjeant Bull to Malpas Road, New Cross, Surrey, and there found the prisoner—I was admitted into the house, where I saw him—I asked him if his name was Dean, and he said it was—I told him I was a police officer, and had a warrant for his apprehension, and I read it to him—he said he knew about it; he had read it in the newspapers, and if I had not come down that evening he would have surrendered this morning, and told all about it, he was willing to give every information he could, and that all he did was for Holdsworth, and by his direction—he said he would tell me what took place: that Holdsworth came to his office with three bills of lading, and asked him to fill them up, and at the same time snowed him a railway receipt for twelve cases, containing pistols, firearms, and swords, which had been sent from Liverpool to Newport, and shipped on board the Severn (I had not said anything up to that time about the Severn)—he said he
consented to do the filling-up, and he did so, and endorsed the bills of lading; then Holdsworth requested him to write a letter to Messrs. Fraser and Co., the insurance agents, that the goods might be insured; that he wrote the letter, and Holdsworth took it away with the bill of lading; that he had never seen the cases, and did not know what they contained, except what Holdsworth told him, that he knew nothing about the Caledonian Insurance Company, and that he was to receive 2 1/2 per cent, on the sale of the goods, but he had not received anything—I said to him, "Are you trading under the name of William Allsopp and Co.?" and he said he had a right to trade under what name he liked—he said further that he had been previously a clerk to Holdsworth, and that how he first heard that there was something wrong in the matter was that he was in Holdsworth's office one morning (a fortnight ago), and he picked up a letter and read it, and it was from a person in Liverpool, named Pryde, directed to Holdsworth, stating that he had, or was, going before the Magistrates in Liverpool, to make a statement about those cases; that the next day he met Holdsworth by appointment in St. Paul's Churchyard, and that Holdsworth then told him that there was a great row about those cases, and that we should all get into trouble, that he was "off," and that he (Dean) must do the best he could for himself—I took him to the station-house, and on searching him found 2s. 2d. in his possession"—That is all true—a reward was offered for Berwick's apprehension, and from information I received I went to 28, Approach Road, Victoria Park, with Sergeant Bull and Captain Downward—I asked for Captain Berwick, and was admitted—when I went into the room Berwick was sitting down dining at a table by himself—he said, "Mr. Dupre?"—I said,"Yes"—I had sent in that name—he said, "Take a seat"—I took a seat—I said I was sorry that I had called upon him when he was dining, but I hoped that he would excuse me; and at that moment Sergeant Bull and Captain Downward were let in by the front door and came into the room—I said to Berwick, "My name is not Dupre, Mr. Berwick, my name is Webb; I am a detective officer, and you must consider yourself in our custody"—he said, "What for?"—I told him, "For being concerned with Joseph Stansfield Dean, alias Allsopp, and others, in casting away and destroying a ship named the Severn, which sailed from Newport about the month of May last"—he said, "You are wrong altogether, I don't know such a ship"—I said, "Why, you were the owner of the Severn"—he said, "You make a mistake, I never saw her, I never was on board her, and know nothing at all about it"—I said, "You will have to go with us"—he said that he should not go unless I produced the warrant—he afterwards said, "Where is the captain? is he in custody? where is Holdsworth?"—I said, "Perhaps you know better than I do"—he said, "I suppose I do"—I took him to the station, searched him, and found some 23l. on him—this was on the 30th of October—I took Dean on the 29th, and Webb on the 25th—Sergeant Bull went with me to arrest Webb—we went to Providence Row, Commercial Road, Whitechapel, and saw Webb in the road—I told him we were two officers, and should take him in custody for being concerned with Holdsworth and others in scuttling and casting away the ship Severn, which sailed from Newport—he said, "I did nothing of the sort; it is not likely, when I had 150l. worth of property on board, and lost it all; it is not likely I should do such a thing to the ship"—I then searched his house, and brought away some papers—he requested his wife to go to Smith, Simpson, and Co., and tell them he was locked up at the station, and he wished them to come and see
him; he told her to go to 12, George Yard, Lombard Street—I received two warrants for Holdsworth's apprehension, one on the 18th of November and the other on 8th October—I searched for him in this country between the 8th of October and the 18th of November—I had a man watching at his counting-house all day—I know his lodgings—I searched there, and could not find him—from information I received I went abroad to look after him—I went to Hamburg first, and afterwards to Gottenburg, in Sweden—I found that a person named Thompson had been staying there—I saw Mr. Pollaky cut out of the visitors' book this slip of paper. (Read: "Oct. 30th. No. 5; J. Thompson, gentleman, Hamburgh.") No. 5 was the number of the room he stayed in at the hotel—I had a photograph of Holdsworth, and showed it to the persons in the hotel; and in consequence of the information I received I went to Basle, in Switzerland, and found Holdsworth there on the 29th of November; I read the warrant to him; he said he was quite willing to go back to England with me, he would not give me any trouble whatever—I did not know Berwick by sight—I took Captain Downward for the purpose of identifying him.
Cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH. Q. Did you take Webb into custody? A. I did, on 25th October, about two days after the reward had been offered, at the place where he was living with his wife—I knew his whereabouts about two days before I took him—amongst the papers I took from him was this bill and receipt for nautical instruments and things bought at Newport (produced) amounting to 14l. there was no other document relating to the purchase of property.
Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. You had no reason to suppose Berwick had changed his residence from the time Webb was taken into custody? A. No—we were not aware when Webb was taken where Berwick was living, but I have no reason to suppose he went where we found him after Webb was taken.
Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT ATKINSON. Q. I believe Mr. Holdsworth gave you not the slightest trouble in coming to England? A. None whatever—he went cheerfully before the proper authorities, in order to prevent my being delayed there—I have the papers he signed for that purpose—he said he was innocent of the charge, he was quite willing to return to England, he was tired of stopping out of the way so long.
Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. Have you an acquaintance named Andrews? A. No—I know Mr. Andrews, but he is no acquaintance of mine—he came to me and said, "You want a man named Dean?"—I said, "Yes"—he did not appoint to meet him next morning—I went the same day, and I found Dean at his place—he was willing to give me every information.
MR. SOLICITOR-GENERAL. Q. As I understand, you had ascertained where Webb lived before either of the parties were arrested? A. Yes—we were looking for Holdsworth and Berwick after we knew where W ebb was, and, not finding them, we looked for Webb, and after finding him the reward was offered—these documents were taken from Webb when arrested (produced).
JOHN MARK BULL (City Detective Sergeant). I went to the house where Holdsworth had been living, 48, Pembridge Villas, on 27th November—that was after I had heard that he was in custody—I found this document (produced) in the bedroom—I searched amongst other places—
in the watercloset I found these diaries. (Produced: one marked, "Where is it?" and the other, "Letts's Diary, 23.") I also found some bank-notes, which have been returned.
MR. WARD (re-examined). This document (produced) is in Dean's writing. (This commenced: "Expenses to Newport, 5l.; hotel, 1l.11s.; three fares to Newport. 1l. 15s.; paid Captain Leyland, 2l.; Nugent Ellis, 9l. 19s. and 14l. 17s. 6d., etc.)
MR. FRASER (re-examined). I believe the handwriting on this diary to be Holds worth's. (This contained entries with regard to the Severn, such as, "expenses to Newport, 5l.; hotel, 1l. 11s.," etc.)
WEBB— GUILTY .— Ten Years' Penal Servitude. BERWICK and HOLDSWORTH— GUILTY .— Twenty Years each in Penal Servitude.
DEAN— GUILTY . Strongly recommended to mercy by the Jury, he being much under the influence of Holdsworth.— Five Years' Penal Servitude.
Before Mr. Common Serjeant.
MR. GRIFFITHS conducted the Prosecution.
THOMAS DAVIES . I live at 25, Victoria Street, Hackney—on 29th January, between three and four in the afternoon, I went to Low Layton to see some empty houses, my mother's property—when I got there I heard some one coming down stairs in one of the houses—I unlocked the front door, and heard somebody run out at the back door and slam it—I followed through the house and saw the prisoner getting over some rails—I took hold of him and asked him what he did there—he said some carpenter, who he met in the street, brought him into the house to mend a door, and he did not know his name or where he lived—there were only footmarks of one person having gone into the house—I missed a brass tap from over the sink, and some keys, which were taken from the prisoner in my presence—at the station I said, "I believe these are mine"—he said he took them to try them to the doors.
Prisoner. Q. When we got back to the house did you not ask me how I got in? A. Yes—you did not tell me that the carpenter had left the door open, nor did I say, "It is impossible, as there has been no carpenter employed there lately"—the policeman did not press me to own the keys and the tap, so as to give you in charge—this tap is covered with whitewash—I had seen it a week or two before—'the policeman laid hold of your hand, which was partly in your pocket and partly out, and took out a number of skeleton keys—fifty or sixty keys were found on you, from which I picked but these six—I cannot swear to them, as about forty or fifty of them resembled one another very much, but mine were rusted through being in an empty house—I could not get into the other house because the lock had been tampered with, but I have broken in since and found the taps and keys arc gone from there—I had not been there for several weeks—I did not see you at the second house.
MICHAEL HILIER (Policeman 354 N). The prisoner was given in my custody—on the way to the station I pulled ten skeleton keys out of his pocket—I searched him at the station and found a number of skeleton keys
on him—there were altogether fifty-seven door keys and eleven brass taps—Davies picked out six of the keys and one of the taps—I took these six keys and tried them to six locks in the house, and they fitted—I compared the brass tap with a place over the sink which had been forcibly cut, and it corresponded exactly.
Prisoner. Q. Was there any policeman to be found? had not you to be taken out of bed? A. I was off duty and was in bed—Davies walked behind you to the station and said, "He has got something in his hand"—you were about dropping the taps and keys when I seized your hand, but you did not drop any.
The prisoner, in his defence, stated that he was employed by a carpenter at the house, and, having found the taps and keys concealed, he thought there would be a reward for them, and, as he could not find a policeman, was going to take them to Stratford Station when Mr. Davies came to the door.
GUILTY . He was further charged with having been convicted of felony at Clerkenwell in July, 1866, to which he PLEADED GUILTY.— Confined Twelve Months.
MR. GRIFFITHS conducted the Prosecution.
HANS NEILSON . I live at 63, Walden Street—on 6th January I was standing at the door of my lodgings—my wife was behind me—the prisoner came up and caught hold of my chain, which was hanging in front of my waistcoat—it broke and he ran away with my watch—I ran after him, stopped him, and gave in charge—I never lost sight of him—I am sure he is the man—I told the policeman which way he ran.
Prisoner. Q. Was I not in your house? A. No, I never saw you before—me and my wife did not turn you out of doors.
MINNIE NEILSON . I am the wife of the last witness—on 6th January we were standing at the door of our lodgings—the prisoner came up and stood against the pavement—I told my husband to come in, and the prisoner snatched his watch and chain off his neck—I followed the prisoner, calling out, "Police"—I saw my husband catch him—he has never been in our house—I do not know him—I have two or three foreign sailors lodging in my house.
JOSEPH MEEK . I am a labourer and live in Bethnal Green Road—about half-past seven on the morning of 7th January I was on my way to work in the North Woolwich Road, between the tollgate and the Thames Ironworks, and found a watch and chain lying on the ground—the chain was broken.
THOMAS COLLINS (Policeman 74 K). About half-past ten on Sunday night, 6th January, the prisoner was given into my custody by Neilson in the North Woolwich Road—I know where Neilson lives—he told me he caught the prisoner between the tollgate and the Thames Ironworks—I went there in search of a watch, but could not find one—there was a lot of snow on the ground—this watch (produced) was given to me by Neilson—it has been trodden on—Neilson identified it.
Prisoner's Defence. I ran towards the Victoria Docks because I thought he was going to beat me. I did not steal the watch and chain.
GUILTY .— Confined Six Months
Before Mr. Recorder.
MR. SLEIGH conducted the Prosecution, and MR. MACAFEE the Defence.
CHARLES BARWICK . I am a coal merchant, and reside at 7, Loampit Vale, Lewisham—the prisoner has been in my service as carman for about a month or five weeks—on the 28th of December I sent him with a van and horse to the Great Northern Railway, for two and a half tons of coals, and gave him twenty-five empty sacks to put them in—he was to take them to Mr. Tomkins, a customer of mine, at Varney House—I went on to Mr. Tomkins, and was there when the prisoner arrived with the coals—I asked what he had got in the van—he said twenty-two sacks, and three riders—the gardener counted them, and he found only one at the top instead of three; there were only twenty-three altogether—the prisoner then said, "Oh! I forgot, I shot two sacks over the weigh-bridge at King's Cross, as I had two sacks over weight"—I said that was a palpable falsehood, and insisted on having every sack weighed; he had delivered one—each sack should weigh 2241b.—they weighed the regular weight—the prisoner said the twenty-three sacks was the full complement of the two and a half tons—the two empty sacks were there.
Cross-examined. Q. What was there to prevent the two and a half tons being put in twenty-three sacks? A. I never knew such a thing—the prisoner continued in my employ till the following week—I paid him his wages, 21s., on the first Saturday, and when he came on the next Saturday I gave him in charge—I sent a regular delivery note with the coals, specifying so many sacks, containing 2241b. each—I did not give him in charge at once, because I was in hopes he would have admitted his guilt—I did not tell him I should stop his week's wages to compensate myself for the coals.
THOMAS CRUMP . I am a coal porter at the Great Northern Railway, King's Cross—I remember the prisoner coming there for some coals on the Friday; the ticket was directed for two and a half tons—I gave him twenty-five sacks; each sack would contain 2001b., or a little over; we generally give over the weight—some sacks weigh heavier than others; some weigh fourteen pounds, and some only four—I weighed the coals at the wharf or bays, where he loaded, and then he would go on to the weigh-bridge, where Toynton is clerk—I am not aware that I ever knew as much as a hundred pounds overweight in twenty-five sacks.
Cross-examined. Q. Is it not the custom to allow so much for falling out? A. Yes; we give a few pounds in excess—if a man is turned back from the weigh-bridge for having his sacks too full, he would shoot them at the bays where he loaded—I have seen them take some off the top at the weigh-bridge when they have had overweight—I did not see that done in this case.
SAMUEL TOYNTON . I am weigh-bridge clerk at the Great Northern Railway, King's Cross—on the 28th of December the prisoner came there with his waggon for coals—I weighed the bulk; it was 3 tons 14 cwt. 1qr. van and all; the van weighed 1 ton 3 cwt. 3 qrs.—the amount of coals was two and a half tons nett.
Cross-examined. Q. Did you come out of your office at all when the
prisoner's van came up? A. No; he did not tell me he weighed 3 1/2 cwt. too much—I put down 3 tons 14 cwt. 1 qr. in the book, that leaves half a hundredweight excess; that was not too much excess for me to let him pass—I said nothing to him; we allow one quarter excess to a ton—there is always coal lying about there—when the waggons are too heavy they sometimes throw some out of a sack there—I never saw them empty a sack there—I could see if it was done; if he had a hundredweight over he would have to throw some off at the side of the bridge.
COURT. Q. Have you ever known two and a half tons put in twenty-three sacks? A. I know nothing at all about how many sacks they have—I see that they do not go out with more than two and a half tons—a person may bring three tons of sacks and only take two tons or two and a half tons of coals.
CHARLES CHAPMAN . I am gardener and groom to Mr. Tomkins—I remember the prisoner coming there with a waggon of coals—he gave me the ticket, and was going to shoot them—I said, "Stop, let us see how many sacks you have got in the middle tier of the van"—he said, "Eight, and two sevens in the bottom"—I said, "That's right; how many top riders?"—he said, "Three"—I got on the wheel and looked, and there was only one—he said, "Oh! I beg your pardon, I made a mistake, I had to shoot two sacks at the weigh-bridge because I was overloaded"—I said, "I never heard of such a thing," and I and his master said we would have them all weighed—they all weighed legal weight—he had shot one already—twenty-three sacks were delivered.
Cross-examined. Q. What do you call legal weight? A. 224 pounds—there were twenty-five sacks put oh the ticket that he gave me.
WILLIAM SHELDRICK (Policeman P 69). I received the prisoner in charge on the 5th of January, at the prosecutor's house—he was charged with stealing two sacks of coal—he said he ought not to be locked up—he had to shoot them over at the weigh-bridge on account of their being over weight.
GUILTY .— Confined Eight Months.
250. ALFRED WILLIAM HOWLETT (20) , to stealing 70l. of William Howlett.— Five Years' Penal Servitude . The prosecutor (the prisoner's father) stated that he had been repeatedly robbed by him, and he could do nothing with him. [Pleaded guilty; see original trial image]
Before Mr. Common Serjeant.
Before Mr. Recorder.
MR. LILLEY conducted the Prosecution.
JAMES HANN (Policeman 5 P). On Monday night, the 24th December, about two minutes before seven, I was at the Elephant and Castle—I saw the prisoners and another man come from the London Road—I followed them—they turned down Frances Street into Hampton Street, went a few yards up, and then stopped and joined in conversation—I ran round Hanover Street to the top of Hampton Street—Hanover Street and Hampton Street both run from Frances Street into the Walworth Road—there is about fifty yards distance between them—when I got to the top of Hampton Street the prisoners were no longer where I had left them—I walked round and round till eight o'clock—I was then standing at the corner of Hanover Street, when I heard a heavy fall down the street—I went down and saw the prisoners coming from the railway arch on to the pavement—Metcalfe and Shepherd had two bundles of lead in their arms—as I was stepping from the pavement across the road to them they chucked the lead into the road and all started off—I chased them down Hanover Street, calling out, "Police!" and, "Stop thief!"—I chased Metcalfe into Frances Street, where he was stopped and taken by Parker—I then went back to the place where I first saw them, and found two bundles of lead, weighing twenty pounds, and a quantity more—it weighed altogether 1 cwt. 74lb., and was newly cut—the next morning I went to some stables belonging to the London, Chatham, and Dover Railway, just over the fence where I had seen the prisoners, and found that a quantity of lead haft been cut from the roofs—I compared the lead with the places from which lead had been cut, and found it exactly corresponded—on the 29th of December I saw Shepherd coming down the steps of the gallery of the Victoria Theatre—I followed him a short distance, stopped him, and said, "Master Shepherd, I want you for being concerned with three others in stealing a quantity of lead on Christmas Eve"—he said, "All right; I was not there"—I took him to the station—I knew all the prisoners by sight before—on the morning of the 29th of December I went with Sergeant Newy to 8, Berners Place, Waterloo Road—Newy knocked at the bedroom door and I went to the back of the house—in a few minutes I saw the blind drawn up and Hogwood trying to get out of the window with a stick in his hand—I called out, and he ran away and got into Sergeant Newy's arms—I produce part of the lead.
Hogwood. I went to pull the blind down to get a little light. The window was nailed down. Witness. No.
Shepherd. Q. Whereabouts did you hear the lead fall? A. Near the railway arch, about fifty yards off—I could see you quite well when I saw you at the Elephant and Castle first, and I got close to you when I saw you together in Hanover Street before I lost sight of you.
HENRY PARKER (Policeman 286 P). I was on duty in Frances Street on Christmas Eve—I saw Metcalfe, Hogwood, and another man running towards Newington Butts—I captured Metcalfe—I said to him, "Who is that shouting 'Police?'"—he said, "Some one I have been fighting with"—I said, "What, three fight one, and run away? You must come back with me and see what is the matter"—I took him back to Hanover Street, and there met Sergeant Hann, who charged him with being concerned with three others in stealing this lead—Metcalfe said, "That remains to be proved"—I took him to the station and examined his hands—they were very dirty and marked with lead—I found this life preserver on him when I apprehended him—I did not know Hogwood previously—he passed
about fifteen yards from me and turned round with his face towards me—I saw him next when he was apprehended and brought to the station.
Metcalfe. Q. Was I running when you stopped me? A. Yes—you had nothing in your hand that I observed.
THOMAS NEWTY (Policeman 12 P). About ten in the morning of the 29th of December I went with Sergeant Hann to 8, Berner's Place, Waterloo Road—the front door was opened by the landlord—I went in and knocked at the back parlour door—Sergeant Hann went to the back of the house—he called out, "Look out; he's coming out of window"—I burst the door open, went in, and found Hogwood with the window about a foot and a half up, up in the act of getting out—a female was in the room—I said to him, "lama sergeant of police, and have come to apprehend you on a charge of felony"—he said, "What is the charge T—I said, "It's being concerned with others in stealing lead on Christmas Eve from premises in Hanover Street, the property of the London, Chatham, and Dover Railway Company"—he said, "I know nothing about it; I was not out the whole of that evening."
WILLIAM HARRIS (Police Inspector, London, Chatham, and Dover Railway). I accompanied Hann to some stables owned by the company in Hanover Street, and compared the lead which was found with what had been lost from the building—it exactly corresponded and had been recently cut.
Metcalfe, in his defence, stated that he had been to see a friend, and as he was returning home he was set upon by three men, and while running from them was taken by the constable.
Hogwood's Defence. I was at home all that night very bad with lumps in my throat.
Shepherd's Defence. On the night of Christmas I was at home from half-past six, and did not go out at all till next morning, Christmas morning, at a quarter to one.
Metcalfe and Hogwood were further charged with having been before convicted, Metcalfe, at Newington, in the name of Richard Kirby , in March, 1863; and Hogwood in April, 1863, in the name of James Selby , to which the prisoners PLEADED GUILTY. METCALFE**— Eight Years' Penal Servitude. SHEPHERD†— Confined Eighteen Months.
MR. LILLEY conducted the Prosecution; MR. MOODY defended Carey.
HENRY JAMES ELLERY . I am a physician, of Kirkdale, Sydenham—Mrs. Ellery and I arrived at Sydenham Station on the 15th of December, having with us seven boxes—I hired a cab to convey my luggage from the station to my house—on my arrival at home one box was missing—about ten days afterwards that box was brought to me by the police, in a broken condition—all the valuable articles had been abstracted—there were various books and articles of wearing apparel, all of which have been identified—I was present when the articles were packed, and know that such articles as this chemise and flannel petticoat were put in the box—the mark on the chemise is "Ellen," that is the name of my wife—I identify distinctly this book of Moore's Poems—there is a name now in it,"Mary Ann Carey," and a leaf has been torn out that name has been inserted since I lost it.
THOMAS NEWY (Policeman 12 P). On the morning of the 29th of December I went to 8, Berner's Place, Waterloo Road, to apprehend Hogwood on another charge—on searching the room I found under the bed a portmanteau—I said to him,"What is this you have here?"—he said,"That's my petery" meaning a portmanteau; "the whole of the articles that that contains belong to this young woman;" Carey was in the room, and he was speaking of her; "they hare all been honestly bought and paid for—I said, "I shall take it away, for it is my belief it has been stolen"—Carey then said, "Do not take the whole of those, because they belong to me; you will find my name inserted in some of them"—I took the portmanteau away with the contents, and afterwards found they belonged to Dr. Ellery—Carey was afterwards taken into custody and brought to Carter Street Station—there she said, "I have a flannel petticoat and chemise, given me by Selby; I don't know anything about the other things which have been taken: if I did, I would tell you"—she mentioned the name of Selby distinctly, meaning Hogwood—I did not say they all be-longed to her—I said a few things belong to her, which I gave her.
JAMES HANN (Policeman 5 P). I was at the station when Hogwood was brought in with the articles which are here—I was taking some of them out of the portmanteau, when he said, "The contents of that are mine: I bought them for a little brother of mine for Christmas presents."
Hogwood. I told you there were two small boxes of toys, which I had bought to send to my brother? Witness. There were several boxes of toys in the box, which were not identified.
WILLIAM CUMMINGS (Policeman 196 M). On 23rd January I was in Gravel Lane, Southwark, and saw Carey with her mother—I asked her what had become of Hogwood—she said, "What for?"—I said, "You know he is wanted; I have received information that he has been taken, and he is either in Newgate or in the House of Detention on remand"—she said, "I do not care where he is, for I do not mean to round; you cannot hurt me"—I told her I should take her into custody for being concerned with him in stealing a box containing wearing apparel—she said, "I know nothing at all about it"—I was in plain clothes—her mother said, "Tell the gentleman all about it"—she said, "You mind your own business, and go to your work"—I said, "You will have to go with me to the police station"—on the road to the station she offered her mother a purse—I prevented her from giving it, and she put it in her bosom—at the station she said, "I have got a shimmy on me, and a flannel petticoat marked Ellen'"—she was then charged, and afterwards the I female searcher produced the things.
Cross-examined. Q. You know Carey's family, do you not? A. Yes; for thirty-one years her father has been in the employment of some black-lead works at Bankside—they are people of very good character—she is quite a child—she has been living with Hogwood lately—I am not aware that there was anything against her previous to her making his acquaintance—she told me about her chemise at the police station voluntarily.
----WELLS. I am the wife of James Wells, a police constable—on the afternoon of the 23rd I searched Carey at the Carter Street Station, and found the chemise and flannel petticoat produced.
Hogwood's defence. It's no good. It's all a lie.
HOGWOOD**— GUILTY of Receiving.— Ten Years' Penal Servituds.
CAREY— NOT GUILTY .
Before Mr. Common Serjeant.
MR. BRINDLBY conducted the Prosecution.
MARTHA TEDDEMAN . I am a widow, and live at 22, Fort Road, Willow Walk, Bermondsey—on Thursday morning, the 24th of January, I was in the New Kent Road, about twenty or twenty-five minutes past twelve—the prisoners knocked me down, and Gilbert took my shawl while Morley held me—I do not know which one knocked me down—they came up from behind me—Gilbert ran away with my shawl, and then Morley ran round by the barracks in the New Kent Road—this is the shawl (produced)—I gave 1l. for it.
GILBERT. Q. Did I not ask you if I should come and see you home? A. No—I did not come back after I went away—you did not shake hands with me—I said before the Magistrate that I had had a little; but I was not drunk.
DENNIS WEARE (Policeman 135 P). I saw Teddeman on this morning, I took Gilbert, and took this shawl from under his coat—I asked him where he got it—he said he picked it up in the New Kent Road—I told him I should take him in custody for knocking a female down and stealing a shawl from her—he said, "You are wrong"—his coat was not buttoned, but he held it as close as he could to him—I could see that he had got the shawl under it.
Gilbert's Defence. The prosecutrix came by as I was leaving a stall. She was very drunk. I offered to see, her home. She said, "No," and turned round to go away, and fell. The next moment I saw a shawl on the pavement and told Morley I had found it.
MART BARRY . I am the wife of Michael Barry, and live at 63, Rodney Road, Walworth, with Mary Murphy, who is a widow, and keeps a provision shop—about half-past eleven on Wednesday night, 23rd January, I saw the prisoners—I was standing inside my room, where there is a window looking out into the shop—Morley came in and asked Mrs. Murphy for a quarter of an ounce of tobacco, and threw down a penny to pay for it—Gilbert came to the door and said,"Get half an ounce"—while Mrs. Murphy went to get the tobacco Morley turned round, took a ham off the shelf, and ran away with it—Gilbert also went out, and Mrs. Murphy ran after them—they were both together—Mrs. Murphy sells the ham at 1l. a pound.
ERNEST STANTON . I live with my parents at 61, Rodney Road—on Wednesday night, 23rd January, I was standing at my door, and saw Gilbert and morley walking up and down by Mrs. Murphy's shop—they did not speak to me—after that I saw Gilbert run out of Mrs. Murphy's shop—he said to me, "I will kick your ribs out if you come outside" his he was coming out he shoved a stick up his sleeve—Morley ran away with the bacon—they went away together.
Gilbert's Defence. I asked Charley if he had got any tobacco and he said, "No, I will go and get some," and he went and got half an ounce. I do not know anything about the bacon; I never saw it.
GILBERT— GUILTY . He was further charged with having been before convicted, to which he PLEADED GUILTY.— Confined Eighteen Months.
MORLEY— GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months.
MR. WOOD conducted the Prosecution, and MR. GRIFFITHS the Defence.
NOT GUILTY .
MESSRS. POLAND and O'CONNELL conducted the Prosecution.
ELEANOR GARDNER . I am the wife of Robert Gardner, of 7, Great Wild Street, Drury Lane—last month I was sitting with William Thomas Moore, my son-in-law, who keeps the Flying Dutchman, Wells Street, Camberwell—on the 17th of December the prisoners White and Green (see next case) came in; Green called for a pot of half-and-half and gave me a bad sixpence, and then called for a second pot and paid with a good sixpence—the prisoner then called for a pot and gave me a shilling—I put it in the till, which I had previously emptied—there was nothing there but the two sixpences that Green had given me—Green's wife then came in for a pot of half-and-half to take home in a can—she was not going to pay for it—I said, "You must pay if you please"—she said, "I am well known to Mr. and Mrs. Moore"—I said, "That has nothing to do with me"—I asked Green if he had got any money—he said. "No," and the prisoner said, "Here, I will pay for it," giving me a bad florin, which I took to my daughter—I gave the prisoner the change, and he and Green left together—the woman may have left a minute before—I then went to the till, examined the shilling, and found it was bad, and the other also—I afterwards gave them to a policeman—I knew where Green lived, and sent to hit house.
ELIZA JONES . I am servant at the Flying Dutchman—on 17th December the last witness gave me a message to go to Green's house, which is just opposite, up a little turning—I went there—he was at home—I asked him where Jones was—he said he had gone to see his sister, and would be back in ten minutes or a quarter of an hour—I went away, listened at the shutters—I heard Jones there, went in, and said, "My mistress wants you, for passing bad money"—he ran away, and I ran after him and brought him back—he knocked my master down, who gave him in charge—it was a little before five in the afternoon.
GEORGE MARLOW (Policeman 570 A). I was on duty in Southampton Street, Camberwell—I saw the prisoner and Mr. Moore, who said, "I give this man in charge for passing bad money"—I was on horseback—the prisoner struck Mr. Moore on the eye and tried to get away—they fell—I did not dismount, but with Mr. Moore's assistance took him to the station, where I searched him and found two half-crowns, a shilling, three penny pieces, and ninepence halfpenny in copper, all good—Moore charged him with uttering counterfeit coin—he said that it was a mistake, he could bring friends to prove it, and the money was good—I produce a shilling and a florin which I got from Mrs. Gardner.
Prisoner. You were on horseback and I was not; therefore I objected to go through the mud. Witness. You unbuttoned your clothes, and tried to slip out of them—you had a scratch below your eye.
—I saw Green and White come in together, about half-past five o'clock, on 17th December—White gave me a shilling for some ale—I showed it to my son, who found it was bad—I kept it in my hand, and told White he had tendered me a bad shilling—she said she had a good half-crown, which she would give me in the place of it—she did so, and I gave her the change—she tried to escape, but I sent my son after her, who brought her back—she said there was no cause to detain her, as she was a respectable servant—I detained Green in the bar—after the money was given to me I saw six shillings and a florin picked up—the shillings were close to where they had stood, and the florin behind the door—I saw the prisoner who picked them up, and gave them to my son—I gave White back the shilling—she afterwards handed it to me, and I pointed out to the policeman the marks which I had made on it—it was the same—my son gave it to the policeman.
WILLIAM JOHN RYAN . My mother gave me a shilling—I noticed that it was bad—White ran from the front of the bar—I went after her, brought her back, and she was given in custody—I afterwards found a bad florin in front of the bar, just behind the door, inclosed in two pieces of paper, and a gentleman picked up six shillings wrapped up in tissue paper, which was not opened until I gave it to the sergeant at the station—I saw Swatton produce them at the police-court—they were found just where White had been standing.
JOHN SWATTON (Policeman 316 P). I was on duty in uniform, and saw a woman come out of the Odd Fellows' Arms, and go towards Southampton Street—I do not know whether she saw me—I afterwards took her, and took her to the station—I took Green to the Odd Fellows' Arms, where he was given in charge for being concerned with White—I received this shilling and florin from William Ryan, and six shillings, separately wrapped in paper, at the station.
WILLIAM WEBSTER . This shilling and florin, uttered to Mr. Gardner, are both bad—the shilling uttered by White is bad, and from the same mould as the one uttered by Jones—the six shillings and this florin which were found are bad, and three of the shillings are from the same mould as the one uttered by Jones and White—the florin is from the same mould as that uttered by Jones.
Prisoner's Defence. I picked up a parcel containing money. I selected a shilling and florin, and changed them, to give White the rest of the money. She is my wife. I have written to the church to have it proved.
GUILTY . He was further charged with having been before convicted.
RICHARD KEMP . I am warder of the House of Correction at Wandsworth—I produce a certificate. (Read: Central Criminal Court, December, 1861. John Quebec , convicted of uttering counterfeit coin.—Confined One Year.) I know the prisoner by the name of John Jones—he was in my custody in December, 1861, in the name of John Quebec—he was brought there from Newgate.
Prisoner. Quebec was my brother-in-law, and he died in Wandsworth. Witness. No, he was discharged, and had a pair of scissors given to him, that he might set to work as a tailor—I am sure you are the man—I have known you for years.
MR. POLAND conducted the Prosecution.
The evidence of Ellen Gardner, Eliza Jones, George Marlow, and Mary Ann Ryan was read over to them, to which they assented.
MARY ELIZABETH RYAN . The evidence of this witness was read over to her, to which she assented, and added, Green brought a friend of his in, who passed a florin to my daughter, on the Saturday previous—she said in his presence, "Your friend passed a bad two-shilling piece on me last Saturday, the 15th"—he said that he was not in the house, he was round Sydenham—on Sunday night, the 16th, Mr. Bathe brought me a florin, which I gave to the constable, with a shilling—I saw Green at our house on Saturday night with a person named Nunn, his friend.
Green. Q. Did not you tell me that a man came in and gave you a florin on Friday evening? A. No, I said, "I saw three of you together outside the house on Saturday night at a quarter to eleven"—I did not say Friday night.
AGNES S. RYAN . On Saturday, 15th December, about a quarter to eleven at night, I saw Green and another man at the Odd Fellows' Arms—I served Green with a pint of half-and-half, and Nunn paid me with a bad florin—I gave him change, but had to go into the parlour to get it from Mr. Bathe—they drank the beer and left—Mr. Bathe brought it back on Saturday evening, and gave it to my mother.
Green. Q. Who was the other man? A. Nunn—he is not in custody—he has no whiskers.
Jones. My wife has been a long while in prison—this is the certificate of our marriage. (It appeared by this certificate that the parties married were named Wells and Palmer.) I told her to give a false name, and I gave a false name myself—I have written to the church.
Green's Defence. I knew nothing about these people having had money.
White's Defence. My husband gave the money to me—I did not know that it was bad.
GREEN— GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months. WHITE— GUILTY .— Confined Nine Months.
MR. HORRY conducted the Prosecution.
OLIVER HOSKINS . I am the tenant of 7, Beulah Terrace, St. Mary's, Lambeth—on the 20th of December I went to bed about eleven o'clock—I saw the house secure, especially a parlour window which opens into the back garden—I fastened the latch in the inner door of the room on the passage side—I was roused between three and four next morning, came down, and found the staple of the lock unscrewed, and the window forced open—the screw had been forced out of the kitchen window,
and the window was up about two and a half feet—I lost nothing; but two drawers were opened—there is a house building at the back.
GEORGE CABLE (Policeman 91 W). I was on duty near the prosecutor's house about live minutes to three o'clock, and heard the scraping of a window fastening—I then heard a window slide up—I was in the rear of the unfinished house in a garden, and could see the window—I saw a match struck outside it, and about ten minutes afterwards saw two men get out of the window, and come in the direction where I was standing, within ten or fifteen yards of me—they must have seen me—they retreated to the rear of the gardens, over the fences—we traced Pitt over several gardens, and Rayment got over a high wall—we searched the garden, and found Pitt under a large laurel tree—we told him lie had been in that gentleman's house over another garden—he said, "I will go quiet, policeman"—we had kept them in sight from the window to where we took Pitt—I am sure the person I took was one of those who came out of the window.
Pitt. Q. How far was it from the house to the laurel tree? A. It might be sixty or seventy yards to the window—I lost sight of you when you dropped over the fence, but I said to the other constable, "I am positive there is one here."
Rayment. Q. What sort of morning was it? A. A beautiful light morning—it was a full moon—you resemble one of the men in features and dress.
MR. HOBBY. Q. Had you an opportunity of seeing the dress and appearance of the man? A. Yes, very good—I particularly noticed Rayment's long chin as he was going over the wall.
ROBERT BARTRAM (Policeman). I went with Cable in pursuit of two men over several fences and into a garden—we found Pitt under a laurel bush—I pulled him out, and told him he had been into a gentleman's house opposite—he said that he would go quietly—the other man got away—I went to the garden next morning, and found these two knives stuck in the ground, and this lantern buried in a piece of black rag.
JOHN MICKLEJOHN (Police Sergeant 7 V). On the 21st December, when Pitt was in custody at Wandsworth Station, two females visited him, about two o'clock—I was in an empty cell, and in consequence of what I heard I followed the females to No. 2, Ballard Street, South Lambeth—we went up stairs, and found Raymond sitting at the fire in the front room—he had a black coat on, and there was a slight tear in his trousers at the back of the right leg—he had a boot on his left foot, and on his right a small boot, like a female's boot, cut in front—I said I should charge him with being concerned with Pitt in burglariously breaking into the house of Mr. Hoskins—he said, "I know nothing about it"—I told him two females had been there, one of whom was in the house, and that I heard Pitt ask her what time Jack came home—I did not know at the time that Jack was his name—she said, "He came home very late, and he sprained his foot in leaping over a high wall"—she also said that his trousers were torn—he said, "It is all very good, I know nothing about it"—I said that Pitt said they got through an empty house—Rayment said, "I know nothing about it"—I found this boot, the fellow to the one he had on, under the bed—I did not look at his ankle—he said that ho had rheumatism—I took this to the garden at the rear of Mr. Hoskins's house, compared it with several footprints there, and the breadth of the heel and this part of the boot corresponded—I could not get a distinct print.
Pitt. Q. How long after you took me did you go to measure that boot? A. About an hour—I took a lamp from the station—there were a great many marks, as people had been examining the window—I do not swear that any marks were made by this boot.
Pitt's Defence. I had been drinking, and went into an unfinished house to sleep. I heard the policeman's rattle and thought there was a fire. I got over the wall and saw two constables with their staves out: I stooped down and they caught me.
Rayment's Defence. The sergeant says that he cannot swear that the footmarks were made by my boot. If you will have Pitt's boot measured by the side of mine you will see that there is not one-eighth of an inch difference in them. PITT— GUILTY . He was further charged with having been before convicted at Lambeth, in October, 1865, in the name of Richard Kirby , to which he PLEADED GUILTY.**— Seven Years' Penal Servitude. RAYMENT— NOT GUILTY .
262. HENRY SMITH (21), GEORGE LEE** (18), and JOHN MORRIS** (18) , to breaking and entering a certain chapel, and stealing therein one quart of wine, the property of John Edward Tresseder and others. SMITH— Confined Six Months. LEE and MORRIS— Confined Eighteen Months each .
[Pleaded guilty; see original trial image] Before Mr. Recorder.
ADJOURNED TO MONDAY, FEBRUARY 25TH, 1867.