CENTRAL CRIMINAL COURT
TWELFTH SESSION, HELD OCTOBER 22ND, 1866.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE,
TAKEN IN SHORT-HAND BY
Short-hand Writers to the Court,
ROLLS CHAMBERS, No. 89, CHANCERY LANE.
THE POINTS OF LAW AND PRACTICE
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OYER AND TERMINER AND GAOL DELIVERY
The City of London,
AND GAOL DELIVERY FOR THE
COUNTY OF MIDDLESEX, AND THE PARTS OF THE COUNTIES OF ESSEX, KENT, AND SURREY WITHIN THE JURISDICTION
CENTRAL CRIMINAL COURT,
Held on Monday, October 22nd, 1866, and following days,
BEFORE THE RIGHT HON. BENJAMIN SAMUEL PHILLIPS, LORD MAYOR of the City of London; Sir JOHN MELLOR, Knt., one of the Justices of Her Majesty's Court of Queen's Bench; Sir GILLERY PIGOTT, Knt., one of the Barons of Her Majesty's Court of Exchequer; Sir JAMES DUKE, Bart., M. P., and JOHN CARTER , Esq., F. A. S. and F. R. A. S., Aldermen of the said City; The Right Hon. RUSSELL GURNEY , Q. C., M. P., Recorder of the said City; WILLIAM FERNELLY ALLEN , Esq., THOMAS DAKIN , Esq., DAVID HENRY STONE , Esq., and JOHN ANDERSON COTTON , Esq., Aldermen of the said City; THOMAS CHAMBERS , Esq., Q. C., M. P., Common Serjeant of the said City; and ROBERT MALCOLM KERR , Esq., Judge of the Sheriffs' Court; Her Majesty's Justices of Oyer and Terminer and General Gaol delivery of Newgate, holden for the said City, and Judges of the Central Criminal Court
CENTRAL CRIMINAL COURT.
PHILLIPS, MAYOR. TWELFTH SESSION.
A star (*) denotes that the prisoners have been previously in custody—two stars (**) that they have been more than once in custody/—an obelisk † that they are known to be the associates of bad characters/—the figures after the name in the indictment denote the prisoner's age.
LONDON AND MIDDLESEX CASES.
OLD COURT.—Monday, October 22nd, 1866.
Before Mr. Recorder.
Recommended to mercy by Prosecutor.— To appear and receive judgment when called upon .
883. JOHN DONALDSON (71) was indicted for a libel upon Mary Ann Deans, alleging that she (a nurse in the Middlesex Hospital) had been guilty of indecent and immoral conduct with a patient in one of the wards.
MR. SLEIGH conducted the Prosecution, and MR. RIBTON the Defence.
NOT GUILTY .
MR. M. GIFFARD, Q. C., for the Prosecution, offered no evidence.
NOT GUILTY .
NEW COURT.—Monday, October 22nd, 1866.
Before Robert Malcolm Kerr, Esq.
MESSRS. STRAIGHT. and GRAIN conducted the Prosecution, and MR. COLLINS the Defence.
EMMA JANE KEMP . I am assistant at Victoria Station refreshment room—on 24th September, about a quarter to seven, the prisoner came to the bar for a glass of port wine—he tendered a bad sovereign—I sent for
Mr. Sweeting, the manager—before he came I gave the sovereign back to the prisoner, and he gave it back to me, and said, "Oh! yes, it is bad," and he paid me for the wine with good money.
Cross-examined. Q. Where was the prisoner when the manager came? A. Standing at the corner—a gentleman looked at it, and said it was a worse one than we had taken in the morning—we took one in the morning—the prisoner said he thought it was bad—he paid me with two three-penny pieces for the port wine, and he had another sovereign.
FREDERICK SWEETING . I am manager of the refreshment rooms, Victoria Station—Miss Kemp called me, and gave me a bad sovereign—I told the prisoner it was bad, and asked him where he got it—he said at New Cross—a waiter who was standing there put it in his teeth, bent it, and threw it on the counter, and the prisoner then took it up and broke it in half.
Cross-examined. Q. Were you there when the gentleman had it? A. No; the prisoner kept the broken pieces for some time, and then handed them to me, and I gave them to the constable, who was there.
ALFRED TAYLOR (Policeman A 246). I was called, and took the prisoner—he gave me the broken pieces of a sovereign—I searched him at the station and found a good sovereign and 2¼; d. on him—he said he took the bad sovereign in payment for some clothing on the platform there—he told me where he lived, and I found that correct. NOT GUILTY .
MESSRS. STRAIGHT and GRAIN conducted the Prosecution, and MR. HARRIS the Defence.
MARY VINCENT . On 19th September I was serving in the "Lord Campbell" beershop, Campbell Road, Bow—the prisoner came in for a glass of the best half-and-half, and put down threehalfpence—he drank it, and then called for another glass and a newspaper, and gave me a florin, which I put in the till—I cannot say whether it was there by itself—he then went out—when he was gone I looked at it and put it on the shelf—he came again on the 25th—I served him with a glass of the best half-and-half, and he put down a bad shilling—I said, "This is bad, and you were here the other day and passed a florin; I knew you directly you came in"—he then ran out at the door, and I sent the potman after him and he was taken into custody—I gave the florin and the shilling to the constable.
Cross-examined. Q. I believe you told the magistrate you put the florin on the shelf first? A. No, I did not—I put it into the till first, and then took it out again—there is a man who collects the letters who I thought was very much like the prisoner—I had not the slightest doubt when the prisoner came in the second time—I could swear to him from a thousand—when I saw them both together I knew the one.
GEORGE WHITELOCK (Policeman K 387). On 25th September I saw the prisoner running across a field—I ran after him and caught him, and took him back to the landlady, who charged him with uttering a counterfeit shilling and florin—I searched him in the field and found 6s. 6d. good money on him—I produce a florin and a shilling, which I got from the landlady.
Cross-examined. Q. Did he not say anything when you took him? A. Not a word.
GUILTY .—He PLEADED GUILTY to a former conviction of uttering counterfeit coin, at this Court, in June, 1862, in the name of John Jones.— Five Years' Penal Servitude
MESSRS. STRAIGHT and GRAIN conducted the Prosecution, and MR. HARRIS. the Defence.
THOMAS WELBELOVED . I am landlord of the "Shakespeare" tavern, Allen Road, Stoke Newington—on the 8th September the prisoner came to my house and I served her with twopennyworth of ginger brandy—she gave me a shilling, and I gave her change, and she left directly—I then looked at the shilling and found it was bad—I called the barmaid in, and ran out and tried to find the prisoner—I could not find her, and I wrapped the shilling up in a piece of paper, marked it outside with the date, and locked it up in a box—the prisoner came again on the 3rd October—I re-cognised her the moment she entered the door—I served her with three-halfpennyworth of gin and peppermint, and she gave me a bad shilling—I said, "This is the second time you have been here, and now I shall lock you up"—she said she had not been there before, she was an honest woman—I ran over and got a policeman, and told the people in the bar not to let her go—I gave her in custody, with the bad money.
Cross-examined. Q. She never attempted to run away, did she? A. She could not; she wanted to go—she drank what she ordered—she gave a false address to the inspector at the station—I am quite sure she is the woman who came on the 8th.
JOHN MILLER (Policeman 171 N). I took the prisoner on the 3rd October—she was charged with uttering counterfeit coin on that day and on 8th September—she said she was an honest respectable woman, and she had never been in the house before—Mr. Welbeloved gave me two bad shillings—a good half-crown, a penny, and a halfpenny were found on her.
Cross-examined. Q. What address did she give you? A. 1, Fleur-delis Court, Ludgate Hill—that was not correct—none of the city men could tell me where it was—I see what this card says, but I could not find it—she did not produce that card then.
The Prisoner's Statement before the Magistrate:—"On the 7th September I was so beat about and ill-used by a man that I was unable to go about on the 8th—I brought the man to the Clerkenwell Station, but I did not lock him up, and I could bring witnesses to prove that I was not in a fit state hardly to stand from loss of blood."
GUILTY .—She PLEADED GUILTY to a former conviction of a like offence at this Court, in April, 1862*.— Five Years' Penal Servitude .
MESSRS. STRAIGHT and GRAIN conducted the Prosecution, and MR. PATER the Defence.
POLOGNA CAROLINE STEPHENS . I am the wife of Robert Stephens, of 16, Hemmings Road, ivory turner and carver—the prisoner came to our shop on the 1st October, about half-past four, and asked for a set of crib-bage pegs, Which were 3d.—she gave me a half-crown, I gave her change, and she went away—I then tried it, marked it, and put it on a table in the parlour by itself—I then went out in search of her, and found her at Mr.
Fenton's, No. 8, in the same street—I waited till she came out, and then said, "You have given me a bad half-crown"—she said, "Dear me, did I?"—I said, "You had better come back with me"—she went back—I showed her the half-crown—she took it in her hand and bit it, and said, "Yes, it is a bad one"—she then gave me a five-shilling piece—I returned her the good half-crown, and the bad one she kept in her hand—she was about leaving the shop, when the lady from No. 8, Mrs. Bellingcroat, came in and said, "She has likewise given us a bad half-crown"—my husband fetched a constable, and she was given into custody—the constable took the bad half-crown from her hand—I had bent it—this is it (produced)—before the constable came she endeavoured to conceal it in a packing case, which was standing there with goods in it with a lot of straw—she put her hand towards the straw in the packing-case.
Cross-examined. Q. How recently was that before the constable arrived? A. My husband was not more than five minutes going for him—I was close to her—I told her to keep it in her hand till the policeman came—if the half-crown had been thrown into the packing-case I should have seen the act—I said nothing to her when I took the half-crown—I bent it directly she left—there was not another half-crown in my till except the one I gave to her—I gave her a newish half-crown in change—I said, "I will give you a rougher one, so that you shall not make a mistake with your bad one," which was smooth—a rougher one means a sharper one, a new one—I went into the parlour to get the change—I keep my till in the parlour—I gave her a florin, 3d., and a half-crown in change for her crown-piece.
MARIA WELLS . I am in the employment of Mr. Fenton, an ivory turner, of 8, Hemming Road—the prisoner came there on 1st October, and asked to look at a brooch—she said they were too expensive, and she bought a cross, which was 6d.—she gave me a half-crown—I gave her 2s. change—I put it in the till—I had only one florin in the till, and the 2s. which I gave her—some one came in, and I looked at the half crown and found it was bad—I gave it to Mrs. Bellingcroat, and she went out with it.
Cross-examined. Q. Who serves in the shop besides yourself? A. Mrs. Bellingcroat—nobody else—it was between four and five in the day—Mrs. Bellingcroat was in the shop when the prisoner came in, at the bottom—it is a long shop—we had both been serving there that morning—I am confident there was no other half-crown in the till—I did not know the half-crown was bad when I took it.
SARAH BELLINGCROAT . I am the wife of Charles Frederick Belling-croat, of 8, Hemming Road—on October 1st the Last witness gave me a bad half-crown, and I took it to Mr. Stephens's shop and saw Mrs. Stephens and the prisoner—I asked Mrs. Stephens if that was the person who had been to our shop, as I did not know her—she said, "Yes"—I said, "She has passed a bad half-crown"—Mrs. Stephens said, "She has done the same here"—the prisoner said she had no knowledge that it was bad money—I kept the half-crown in my hand till the policeman came and gave it to him.
Cross-examined. Q. Do you remember whether the prisoner came into your shop whilst you were there? A. She did—Miss Wells's and my till are separate.
JAMES HARDING (Policeman C 223). On October 1st the prisoner was given into my custody—I took the bad half-crown from her hand—it is bent—Mrs. Bellingcroat gave me another—these are the coins (produced)—the prisoner was searched at the station, and 8s. 6d. in good money was
in her purse, which consisted of two florins, one half-crown, and two shillings—I found no cribbage pegs.
Cross-examined. Q. Did you not ask her where the cribbage pegs were? A. No—she said at the station she must have dropped them.
The Prisoner's Statement before the Magistrate:—On Sunday night I met a gentleman, and he gave me three half-crowns—I afterwards went to Mrs. Stephens's shop and purchased the articles.
GUILTY. Recommended to mercy by the jury. — Confined Nine Months .
WILLIAM ARBOUR . I was originally in the F division of police—the prisoner was convicted at the June session of this court, in 1864, in the name of Flynn—I produce the certificate—(read:—"6th June, 1864, James Flynn convicted on his own confession for uttering counterfeit coin.—Confined Nine Months)—the prisoner is the person. GUILTY.— Five Years' Penal Servitude .
OLD COURT.—Tuesday, October 23rd, 1866.
Before Mr. Recorder.
The following prisoners PLEADED GUILTY—
891. ROBERT MOLCHARECK (23) , to several indictments for forging and uttering endorsements to bills of lading, with intent to defraud.— Confined Eighteen Months . [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]
892. CHARLES JOHN PARDUE (19) , to forging and uttering two receipts to post-office orders for 1l. 12s., and 7s. 9d.; also to embezzling 11s. 6d. and 1l. 19s. 6d. of Charles Thomas Ingram. He received a good character.— Confined Twelve Months . [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]
893. JOSIAH RICHMOND ANDERSON (20) to embezzling 65l. 6s., 57l. 16s. and 23l. 4s. 4d. of Joseph Liddell and others, his masters.— Confined Twelve Months [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]; and
894. MORRIS HENRY GOODMAN (19) , to feloniously harbouring him knowing him to have committed the said felony.— To enter into recognisances to appear and receive judgment if called upon . [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]
895. RICHARD WADDINGTON (42) , to embezzling the sums of 47l. 11s., 24l., 3l. 10s., and 37l.; also 56l. 4s., 47l. 12s. 9d., and 21l. 11s. Recommended to mercy by the prosecutor.— Confined Eighteen Months . [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]
MR. COOPER conducted the Prosecution, and MR. LEWIS the Defence.
WILLIAM HILLS (City Policeman 150). On 18th September I went to Mr. Grossmith's house, 120, Fore Street, where the prisoner was employed as housekeeper—she complained of being robbed of 20l.—from further information I received, I went to the house again, about half-past one in the afternoon—I saw the prisoner and asked if she knew a Miss Morgan—she said
she did—I asked her when Miss Morgan had been there—she said the day before, on the Monday—I then went with Mr. Grossmith to Miss Morgan's, at 23, Redcross Square—with her assent, I looked over the place, and in the parlour cupboard I found this box of cosmetiques—they were wrapped up in this paper—she took me to her father's room, unlocked one of the drawers, in which I found about twenty different packets—she then took me downstairs, and there I found one and a half hundredweight of per-fumery—some old saucepans were piled in front of them—I took possession of the goods and went back to Mr. Grossmith's premises with Miss Morgan, and told the prisoner I should take her into custody for stealing a great quantity of soaps and perfumery from her master's warehouse, and sending them to 23, Redcross Square—she made no reply—she asked me to allow her to put some other things on—she went into another room for that purpose, and I heard a purse of gold fall from her pocket as she took her dress off—it fell heavily on the boards—I went into the room and asked what money she had about her—she said a good bit, she could not exactly tell how much—she handed me a purse containing 29l. 7s. 10d. in gold and silver—I took her to the station—two other sovereigns were found up the sleeve of her dress at the station—previous to that she had told me she had got only 3l. about her, when she complained of being robbed of 20l.
WILLIAM CARTER GROSSMITH . I am a wholesale perfumer, of 120, Fore Street—I have one partner—the prisoner has been in our employ as housekeeper about three years—we had a good character with her—I have examined the property that has been produced by Hills, and identify it as our property—the prisoner had no right whatever to take it—I have seen Miss Morgan at our place as a friend of the prisoner's—the value of all the things found is about 25l.
MARGARET SARAH MORGAN . I am single, and live with my father at 23, Redcross Square—I have known the prisoner twelve months—she brought a box to me about three months ago—she said first of all she was going to buy a parcel, and would I take care of it—she said she was going into business—she has brought other parcels to me since then—she brought all the things that the police took away. GUILTY .— Confined Six Months .
MR. COOPER conducted the Prosecution.
WILLIAM FLETCHER . I am a van guard, in the employ of the Great Northern Railway Company—on Friday, 28th September, about seven o'clock, I was with the van in Paternoster Row—I took eleven parcels from Mr. Kent's, at the corner of Ivy Lane, and then went to Messrs. Longman's—while waiting there I was standing by the side of the van—I saw the two prisoners there together against the tail of the van, and afterwards I saw Willbud with a parcel on his shoulder—I asked him where he was going with it—he said the other prisoner gave it to him to carry, he was about half a dozen yards from the van—Hayter went round another van and got away—I found a constable near, to whom I gave Wilbud in charge—I am quite sure the prisoners are the two men.
Hayter. Q. Where was I? A. When Willbud got the parcel on his shoulder you were behind him, laughing at him—I could not say which took the parcel.
HENRY HOWELL . I am a bill-poster, of No. 27, Castle Street; Holborn—at times I work for Messrs. Whitaker, of Ave Maria Lane—I was employed there on 28th September—I saw the two prisoners together several times in the Row—I saw them once near the Great Northern van, near Longman's—I saw Fletcher, and made a communication to him—I was taking a parcel from Whitaker's to another van, and saw Willbud with a parcel on his shoulder, going up the Row, and the other prisoner running away—I am quite sure they are the two men—I had known them before, and seen them together several times before.
Willbud. Q. Did you see me take the parcel? A. No—I did not go to the station, as I had to take out my parcels—I did not go to the police-court, because I was not asked—I have known you about fourteen or fifteen years—I have not had a regular situation for some years, I can do better with my bills—I do jobbing as well.
Hayter. Q. How long have you known me? A. About five or six years—I do not know a person named Conroy—I never told him I should apply to the Great Northern Company for a situation.
JAMES HANN . I am a detective officer of the City police—I know both the prisoners quite well—on 28th September I watched them for three or four hours—they were together at the railway station, Ludgate Hill, and in Fleet Street—I have frequently seen them together, and have had occasion to watch them.
Hayter. Q. Don't you know well where I live? A. No—I know you lived in Poppin's Court, that is not many yards from the station—you prowl about Fleet Street with a bag under your coat, and the other one follows you.
WILLIAM ROWLAND (City police officer). On Thursday, 4th October, about eleven o'clock, I saw Hayter in Poppin's Court—I told him I was an officer, and he would be charged with being concerned with another man in custody, named Willbud, with stealing a parcel containing books from the Great Northern Railway van, in Paternoster Row—he said, "I know something about it," or, "I have heard something about it; I was not there at the time of the robbery, I left Willbud at five o'clock"—I took him to the station, searched him, and found a knife on him.
Hayter. Q. Have I ever absented myself from home about this time? A. I am not aware—I met you in Farringdon Street, the same morning, and spoke to you soon after six o'clock—I did not then know you were the person who was concerned with Willbud.
Willbud's Defence. I have been two years out of work, I could get no situation—I have tried to get an honest living—I have aged parents, and I can't see them starving to keep me—I was asked to carry the parcel, and I did, and that has placed me in this position.
Hayter's Defence. I got into trouble in 1862, and had six months—since then I have got my living honestly up to five weeks before this—if I had been guilty of this I should not have remained at home. GUILTY .
The Prisoners further PLEADED GUILTY to having been before convicted—Willbud, in October, 1864, and Hayter, in September, 1862.— Confined Eighteen Months each .
MR. COOPER conducted the Prosecution, and MR. MONTAGU WILLIAMS the Defence.
JOHN SOLOMONS . I am a printer in Belle Sauvage Yard, Ludgate Hill—the prisoner has been in my employ as town traveller for two months—I authorised him to collect small sums for me—he was to account for them as he collected them, when he came back—he never accounted to me for 5l. received on behalf of Mr. J. Lewis, of No. 485, Oxford Street, or 3l. 15s. from Henry Bradshaw—I showed him Mr. Lewis's receipt, and he said he knew it, that he had taken the money—I gave him in charge—he said he would pay me back the 5l. if I would wait—he made no reference to the 3l. 15s., that was not found out till afterwards.
Cross-examined. Q. Do you keep any books? A. Yes—I have not brought them here—I paid him 2l. a week, commission, and 5 per cent, on his orders—about 1l. 4s. was due to him for commission at the time he was given in custody—he has called at my house on a Sunday morning, and we have walked to the office together talking on business matters—being a Jew, I do business on a Sunday—it was on a Sunday that I gave him into custody—he did not say he would pay me back on the Monday—he said he would do so on the following Saturday—I do not know that he had been offered another situation—I can't say that it was agreed that his commission should be settled every month—he had it when he wanted it—he had not asked for it a short time before, nor had I told him to wait; I might have said such a thing—I have not stated that I should not have pressed the case against him if it had not been for my father-in-law.
WILLIAM HAMMOND . I am manager to Mr. John Lewis, of No. 485, Oxford Street, medicine vendor—on 22nd August last I paid the prisoner 5l., which Mr. Lewis owed Mr. Solomons—the prisoner signed this receipt (produced).
HENRY BRADSHAW . I am a coal and corn merchant, of No. 129, Lower Thames Street—I was indebted 3l. 15s. to Mr. Solomons, for printing—on 3rd September I paid that to the person who signed this receipt (produced)—I do not remember to whom I paid it.
MR. SOLOMONS (re-examined). To the best of my belief these receipts are the prisoner's writing.
WILLIAM LEWIS (City Policeman). On Sunday, October 7th, I went to Mr. Solomons's warehouse, and saw him and the prisoner—Mr. Solomons showed him a note that he had received from Mr. Lewis, of Oxford Street—the prisoner said he knew all about it, and asked Mr. Solomons if he would take it back by instalments—he thought he could pay him in a week—he refused to do so, and gave him into custody.
GUILTY. Recommended to mercy.— Confined Four Months .
NEW COURT.—Tuesday, October 23rd, 1866.
Before Mr. Common Serjeant.
900. FRANCIS JAMES HARLEY (27) , to unlawfully obtaining 200 sacks from Henry Marandez, with intent to defraud. He received a good character, but Thomas Marks, City Policeman, stated that he was convicted of larceny in 1857.— Confined Twelve Months . [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]
902. MARY BROWN** (45) , to stealing one purse, 15l. in money, and a cheque for 25l. of George Starling Teede, from his person, after a previous conviction.— Confined Twelve Months . [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.] And,
JURY, having stated that he was Guilty, the COURT directed a verdict of GUILTY .— Confined Three Months .
MR. COOPER conducted the Prosecution.
CHARLES POPLETT . I assist my father in his business as a printer, and live with him at Beach Street, Barbican, in the parish of Cripplegate Without—on the 23rd September, about ten o'clock, I went into the cellar with a candle to get some beer—I saw two men crouching down behind a brick pillar—the cellar is about eighteen feet long and twelve feet wide—the prisoner is one of them—I could not see his face in the cellar, but I called to my father, and went upstairs—I slipped on the stairs and the candle went out—the men followed close behind me—I endeavoured to shut them in with the door, and the prisoner struck me on the forehead—I was not able to shut the door, and they ran to the private outer door, but could not open it—I kept calling out—my father came down and opened the door, and my sisters called "Police!" from the window—the prisoner looked up the stairs to see how many came down—I saw the glare of the gas on his face, and am certain he is one of the men—they pushed through and got away—the other has not been caught—the prisoner was brought back at about a quarter to three, and I recognised him at once—I examined the cellar, and found the lead wrenched out of the sink and out of the wetting trough, and the water pipe was pulled from the wall, but not cut—the men had entered by wrenching out a grating which leads to the court.
JOHN POPLETT . I am the father of the last witness—I heard my daughters shout, went downstairs, and saw the prisoner and another man—we always fasten the door when we go up to supper, and I was obliged to open it to call for assistance—I saw the prisoner by the gas-light as distinctly as I see him now—the lead was laid ready to be taken away.
CHARLES OLIVER (City Police Sergeant 29). I went to the house at half-past two o'clock, and found the prisoner in bed—I told him to get up, and took him to 43, Beach Street—while the man on the beat was calling the prosecutor up the prisoner said, "It is no use, I am booked now"—I took him to the station and searched him, but found nothing.
Prisoner's Defence. I know nothing about it—I was in bed and was taken by the policeman. GUILTY †.— Confined Twelve Months .
MR. BESLEY conducted the Prosecution.
JAMES SMITH COOK . I am a brass rule maker, of 6, Ropemaker Street, City—the prisoner's father works for me, and the prisoner came to my place five or six times a week to bring work from his father—this composing stick is mine—I put a mark on it, wrapped it in paper, and locked it in a drawer on, I think, the 16th September, about one o'clock—the prisoner came in about that time, and asked me to lend him a small file—I went upstairs to get one, and when I came down I opened the drawer, missed the composing stick, and communicated with the police.
WILLIAM FRANCE (City Policeman 135). On the 27th September I went to the prisoner's residence, told him I was a detective officer, and should take him into custody for stealing a large quantity of composing sticks—he cried and said, "I took them"—I asked him where they were—he gave me this one (produced)—I asked him where the other was—he said, "I took three up to Mr. Livermore's, a pawnbroker, in Shoe Lane, Holborn, who lent me 1s. 6d. each on the three," and that when he went again he said, "Here is 2s. for you, you do not want a ticket," and that that had been going on since.
CHARLES WENTWORTH . I am assistant to Mr. Livermore, a pawn-broker, of Shoe Lane—I produced thirty-nine composing sticks, twenty of which were pledged with me during thirteen months, and nineteen were bought for 37s. 6d.—the prisoner brought them all, I believe.
J. S. COOK (re-examined). These are my property—they are worth from 4s. 6d. to 10s. a piece—I have lost forty that I know of, and chiefly within the last three months—two of them are German silver—the value of the whole is 14l. or 15l.—they are used by compositors for setting the letterpress.
Prisoner's Defence. Last winter, when my father was ill, we made several composing sticks, and I took them to Mr. Livermore to pawn—I made several myself, and Mr. Livermore told me that several of them were being brought to him by other people when I asked him a little more for one of them.
GUILTY .— Confined Six Months .
MR. PATER conducted the Prosecution, and MR. WRIGHT the Defence.
THOMAS GARDNER . I keep a lodging-house at 43, Golden Lane—on the 2nd July, about twenty minutes past eleven at night, I was in Golden Lane in a waggonette with Mary Ann Milroy and Mr. Martin, an under-taker, who had to deliver a coffin—I inquired of some women for 17, Golden Lane, and the prisoner Welch and James Mooney came out of the "Crown" public-house and threatened to pull me out of the waggonette—James Mooney spoke first, and said that I insulted the women—I said that I did not—he made a blow at me—I got out and he struck me on my face—I defended myself as well as I could—Mary Ann Milroy also interfered, and a woman who was standing by caught her by her hair and dragged her across the lane—Martin got out of the waggonette first, and went off to search the lane for No. 17—the police came and the prisoner ran away—I afterwards went with Martin to the "Crown" public-house; it was then twenty minutes past twelve—Welch was there, and directly he saw me enter he struck me in the face—James Mooney and his brother came out and tried to throw me down in the road—I got away from them after a
great deal of struggling, and turned round and saw Martin lying in the gutter, and James Mooney went up and kicked him—when I saw that I could render Martin no assistance I ran to the station for assistance—I saw Welch in Golden Lane about three o'clock the same morning, and gave him in custody—I never saw Walter Mooney.
Cross-examined. Q. How long have you lived in Golden Lane? A. Eighteen months, my parents have lived there fourteen years—I was coming from my other house, the "King's Head," Shoreditch—I knew all three prisoners by sight—the gas made it quite light—there are two public-houses almost opposite each other—I never had any dispute or un-pleasantness with either of the prisoners—Welch said something at the time he struck me, but I do not recollect what.
MARY ANN MILROY . I am single, and live at 4, Robin Hood Court, Golden Lane—on 3rd July I was in a waggonette with Gardner—he inquired for 17, Golden Lane, of some women who were standing round the public-house, and not many minutes afterwards James Mooney came up and said that Mr. Gardner was insulting the women—he said, "I am not"—he made a stroke at Mr. Gardner—I jumped out of the way, and caught hold of him—Gardner jumped out of the waggonette, or he would have been pulled out—he exchanged blows with James Mooney, and a mob collected—James Welch came up and struck Mr. Gardner—they both got hold of him at once—a woman caught me by the hair and dragged me along the road—I called "Police!" and they ran away—I know the prisoners by sight—I did not see Walter Mooney there—there is no pretence for saying that Gardner insulted the women—Martin, who was with us, had a coffin to take to the lane.
Cross-examined. Q. How long have you known Mr. Gardner? A. About twelve months—I had been with him since nine o'clock, and had one glass of wine with him—he had a glass of gin and water with Martin, but was quite sober—he gave no retort whatever—I know them by sight by living in Golden Lane—when Mooney attempted to strike Mr. Gardner they had a common fight.
COURT. Q. Are there any numbers painted on the doors in Golden Lane? A. No—I do not know No. 17.
JAMES MARTIN . I am a plumber—I lodged with Gardner—on the night of the 3rd July, a little after twelve o'clock, I went with him to the "Crown," in Golden Lane—I saw Welch there—he ran after Gardner, but I did not see him strike him—two other men, not in custody, knocked me about—they left Gardner and came back to me outside the house—Welch punched my face two or three times with his fist, but I did not fall—James Mooney then came and helped him to thump me, and because he could not hit me hard enough he kicked me on my head—they were not satisfied with that, but they both picked me up and threw me down in the gutter, and while I was scrambling to get up Walter Mooney said, "I will show you how to kick the b—s—," and kicked me under my jaw, which broke the jaw—I became insensible, and when I came to my senses I found my-self at home—one of my teeth was kicked out—I was taken to the hospital, and am still an out-patient—I had seen the prisoners before that night passing up and down, but I never spoke to them—I did not speak to them on this night.
Cross-examined. Q. When you went into the "Crown" with Mr. Gardner were you quite sober? A. Yes—we went into a beerhouse first, but the prisoners were not there, and then we went into the "Crown,"
—I was with Gardner the whole time—I should know one of the other men again—I think I had seen him two or three times before—they struck me in the face and pulled me about—Welch then came up—I believe Mr. Gardner was perfectly sober—I have never been in prison.
COURT. Are you quite sure that Walter Mooney is the person who used that expression and kicked you on the jaw? A. Yes.
MR. PATER. Q. Since this assault have you lost your hearing? A. Yes, with one ear.
GEORGE HUNT ALLEN . On the 3rd July I was house surgeon at St. Bartholomew's Hospital—I remember Martin being brought in—his jaw was broken, and one of his teeth knocked out, and he was severely bruised all over the head and face and various parts of his body—he was in a very precarious state—we despaired of his life for some days—he is, I believe, still an out-patient, and is in a very weak state—it is a question of strength—if he is able to support himself and take a proper amount of nourishment he will be out of danger—he has lost the hearing of one ear.
Witnesses for the Defence.
HENRY RICHARDSON . I am the andlord of the "Crown," Golden Lane—I was at home the whole of this day—Walter Mooney was there from six till half-past nine, when he went away with his wife, who came to fetch him home—he was in a state of intoxication—I did not see him again.
Cross-examined. Q. When did you hear that he was in trouble? A. Not till dinner time next day—he is one of my customers, and is there perhaps twice a week—he is a labourer—I went upstairs to the bagatelle board about eight o'clock, but was downstairs when Walter Mooney was taken home—I keep a young man to do the house work, but he has nothing to do in the bar—I will swear that he was upstairs at half-past nine—I left him upstairs—he came down in the course of the evening—I cannot say whether he was downstairs about twelve o'clock—he would be more downstairs than up—I know when I was before the Magistrate that the prisoner was charged with assaulting a man named Martin after twelve o'clock—I had not seen Walter Mooney on the morning of the day this happened—I first saw him from two to three o'clock—Welch was with him—the three prisoners came in together about half-past nine, and I saw them there about twelve.
COURT. Q. Were you in the house when Gardener and Martin came at half-past twelve? A. I was upstairs—I do not know what took place when they came in—I heard a disturbance and went down—I saw several people, but cannot swear to them, or say who was creating the disturbance—that was the second disturbance there had been—they were all going out—I did not think it necessary to go out and see who was there—I found my house empty, and who was outside I do not know—I know Gardner and Martin by seeing them in and out of my place—Gardner is a customer of mine—Welch and the Mooneys live in the neighbourhood—they were very much in liquor when I last saw them, which was at a quarter to one, and then I had the house shut up—I saw them outside as I was put-ting the shutters up—I did not see Martin on his back in the gutter—I heard cries, but did not go out—I was glad enough to keep them out—Walter Mooney walked away with his wife, as far as I saw.
WILLIAM REDDINGTON . I am a labourer, of 2, Britannia Court, Golden Lane—on the night of the 2nd July I was outside the court, and saw the row—it was between twelve and one o'clock—I had a clear view of the
people that were making the disturbance—I know the prisoners as hard-working men—I know Walter Mooney so well that I swear he was not there—as to the other two, I do not know whether they were there, there were so many there, but I can distinctly say that Walter Mooney was not there—I know him well, because he worked with me at the same firm.
Cross-examined. Q. How near were you to the mob? A. From twenty to thirty feet away, about the length of this court—the "Crown" is across the road—I saw no one come out of the public-house—I saw nobody on the ground—I have come here to swear that the man was not there at all—I never saw Martin till to-day—I was not among the crowd—I did not see Martin or Gardner among the crowd—I cannot say how many were there.
COURT. Q. Unless you conduct yourself properly you will be committed. You can tell how many there were if you choose; were there 50? A. Yes, over 50—I did not see Welch or James Mooney there.
SARAH BRENAN NEAL . I live in St. Helen's Place, Lower Whitecross Street—I live in the same house as Walter Mooney—on 2nd July it was as near as possible half-past ten when I came home from my work—I went to unlock my door, and his door was wide open—I spoke to his wife, and saw him lying on the bed as I stood at the door—I went to the chandler's shop to get some pickles at about a quarter to twelve o'clock, but was not absent more than four minutes, and as I came in I saw him still on the bed, which is opposite the door—I was about the passage or in my room the whole night—I went to the top to get some water, it was then past twelve, his door was open and I saw him again—he could not have got out of the house the whole night without my seeing him, because I have little things to do—I did not fasten the door—I can swear he never went out that night—I fastened up about twenty minutes past one.
Cross-examined. Q. When you came back with the water did you go to bed? A. No—I went into my own room—the water was outside the door—when I locked up, the door of his room was open—I did not see him again that night.
COURT. Q. When did you see him? A. Not till I saw him at Guild-hall—I generally go to bed about nine o'clock, but I did not leave work on this night till half-past ten, and then I came home and had my fire to light and my husband's supper to get ready—my husband went to bed after twelve, when he had his supper.
MR. PATER. Q. Was your husband at the "Crown" public-house this night? A. Not that I know of—I did not go to the "Crown"—I went to Guildhall every time that the prisoners came up to be tried, except the last, when the witnesses were called—Mr. and Mrs. Walter Mooney do not go to bed with their door open, but she was doing something, and I asked her if I could not close the outside door—they closed their door when I fastened up the house—the outside door is left open, because some people live upstairs.
MARY ANN MACDONALD . I am single, and live at 2, Denmark Court, Golden Lane—I did not see Mrs. Neal on the night of 2nd July—I went to Walter Mooney's house about half-past nine o'clock, and he was in bed undressed—I left between ten and eleven—he was rather drunk—his wife was going to bed when I was there.
Cross-examined. Q. Had you any other object in going to the house? A. I went to deliver a message from my mistress, which was given, to me between nine and ten—I did not deliver the message when I was there at
half-past nine, because I had not seen my mistress—I went there first to see Walter Mooney home from Mr. Richardson's public-house—I saw Welch and James Mooney at the "Crown"—I was in the neighbourhood when the disturbance took place—I was coming by at the time—I left off work at eight or nine o'clock.
COURT. Q. What took you down there at the time of the row? do you mean the row when the waggonette was there? A. Yes—I heard Gardner ask for No. 17—there were such a lot of people that I could not say who was there—when I took Walter home I had left work, but mistress told us to call in and let her know what time we would come in the morning, as work was rather slack—I went to the "Crown" between nine and ten to get some beer, that was before the row with the waggonette—Walter was gone before that.
MR. PATER. Q. Did you assist to take him away from the "Crown?" A. Yes, with his wife—the last I saw of him was in bed, when I delivered the message—I was at home from half-past nine till that time—I was out to get some beer, and afterwards to get a candle—I am not one of the girls who was asked where No. 17 was, but I heard them ask—somebody came out and said that they had been insulting the girls, and it was all in an uproar in a moment.
JURY. Q. Were you the person who dragged the young woman across the road? A. No; I saw her dragged across the road.
WELCH** and JAMES MOONEY— GUILTY .— Confined Eighteen Months each . WALTER MOONEY— NOT GUILTY .
MESSRS. POLAND and BEASLEY conducted the Prosecution; MR. WILLIAMS appeared for Pitfield.
THOMAS FOX (Policeman 45 H). On Saturday night, October 6, I was on duty on Tower Hill, and about half-past eleven was called to the "Little Tower" beershop, Tower Hill—the disturbance was then over, and there were some soldiers in the beershop—they did not come out till twelve o'clock—the prisoners were there, and another soldier, who has been in custody and has been discharged, also other people not soldiers—when they came out Ashbrook took off his belt and wanted to take off his tunic to fight—he said, "I will fight any b—man in the street"—Burke came to my assistance at twelve o'clock, and he was the first that was assaulted—he went up and said, "You had better go away; do not make a disturbance in the street"—Ashbrook said he would not go away for any b—sod of a policeman like him, and said, "I will put you away off the street before I go"—Burke told him to go away again; he said that he would not—Burke took out his rattle and sprang it for assistance, and as soon as he did so Ashbrook came up and said, "Will you fight me? Put up your arms and fight if you are a man"—he struck Burke on the breast, and then on the mouth with his fist—Burke took him in custody—Pitfield then made a rush to seize Burke, but I caught hold of him to prevent his doing it, and as soon as I did that Pitfield drew back and struck me a blow across the head with Ashbrook's belt, which knocked my helmet off, which was taken away and has not been brought back—it stunned me, and the blood flowed—I was rendered insensible for a few minutes—I received several
other blows with a belt—I cannot say from whom—the other soldiers used their belts also—we were obliged to leave them and went to a surgeon—we afterwards went back and took Pitfield, got assistance a quarter of an hour afterwards, and took Ashbrook to the station.
Cross-examined. by MR. SLEIGH. Q. Pitfield was not about there for a quarter of an hour? A. About a quarter—he was then in company with a girl—they clear this house at twelve o'clock at night on Saturday—six soldiers cleared out I think, and about twenty civilians—that is rather a noisy neighbourhood—the first time I saw the belt it was in Ashbrook's hands.
MR. POLAND Q. When Ashbrook was taken had he any belt? A. Yes—he had got it again—he unbuttoned one or two buttons at the top of his tunic, but one of his comrades prevented his taking it off.
THOMAS BURKE . On Saturday night, 6th October, about twelve o'clock, I went to this beershop just at twelve o'clock to the assistance of the other constable—the prisoners were there and several other soldiers, they were just coming into the street—there were several soldiers outside, and lots of prostitutes and civilians—they were all drunk and disorderly, and inclined to kick up a row—I advised the soldiers to go away, two of them did so, and the others refused—Ashbrook called to his comrades, and said, "Come on, and we will remove the b—sods off the street"—he took off his belt and Pitfield held it—Ashbrook thought he would take off his tunic too, but his comrades held him and would not let him—he came up to me and shoved me several times—I took out my rattle and sprang it, and Ashbrook struck me several times with his clenched fist, and another soldier not in custody took my rattle out of my hand—several others behind me struck me with their belts—I cannot say who they were—I took hold of Ashbrook at the time, and as soon as I got liberated I went to take him in custody—I could not see what Pitfield did, but we took him ten minutes afterwards—he was with some girl on the very spot where this matter occurred—Ashbrook was taken by another constable and brought to the station—he was drunk—I saw Fox's head bleeding—Pitfield was very drunk—while they were there Leech made a complaint to me.
Cross-examined. by MR. WILLIAMS Q. I believe you have stated, not at the police-court, that you do not know who took your rattle, but that it was a soldier? A. Yes—there was a soldier there named Brenan—I took him in custody, and he was discharged.
MR. POLAND. Q. Was Brenan there at the time of the assault? A. Yes—I cannot swear whether he struck me or not, and whether he struck the other constable I was too much engaged to see.
Ashbrook. Q. Did you come up and commence shoving us about? A. I never touched you—I did not push you into the middle of the road—I did not want to interfere with you if I could help it—I did not say, "Go on or I will send this staff at your head"—I never drew my staff—I only sprang my rattle.
CHARLES LEECH . I am a watchmaker, living near Tower Hill—on 6th October, at twelve o'clock at night, I was returning home, and saw a number of soldiers, prostitutes, and civilians congregated round the "Tower" public-house—I spoke to Fox and Burke, but do not know whether the prisoners heard what I said—the policeman asked the soldiers, at my request, to move on, as there could not be a disturbance there—Ashbrook said, "Move on? We will not move on for such b—sods as you," and began pushing about in all directions—Pitfield had a belt,
which he was using on Fox and Burke, and on every one indiscriminately—I saw him strike both the prisoners.
Cross-examined. Q. Have you ever said one single word before to-day about seeing Pitfield use his belt? A. Yes—I saw two soldiers strike blows at the policemen—I saw one use the belt, and saw both use their fists—I told the Magistrate that two of them struck blows—I swear that the prisoners and Brenan struck blows—I will not swear that Brenan was not one of the two.
MR. POLAND. Q. Are you quite sure you saw one soldier with a belt strike the constable with it? A. Yes, I am positive the prisoners were there.
COURT. Q. Had Ashbrook his belt on or off? A. He had it on at first—I cannot say whether he had it off afterwards—I saw him undoing his tunic and taking it off.
Q. You say in your deposition, "I saw you with Ashbrook's belt?" A. I saw Pitfield using a belt—I cannot say whose belt it was.
GEORGE BAGSTER PHILLIPS . I am the divisional surgeon—I saw Fox on Sunday morning—he had a wound on the side of his head about an inch long, an incised wound, and a bruise—it went through the scalp—it might be inflicted by a soldier's belt.
Ashbrook's Defence. I never made use of the language mentioned—there were a lot of soldiers there—the man knocked me about, and I struck him in my own defence—the police looked on, but never offered to take anybody in charge—the Tower gates were closed at twelve, and I had to give myself up, but I fell into the hands of five or six policemen—they threw me down, and commenced kicking my shins—I was smothered in blood—I do not remember striking a policeman.
COURT to THOMAS FOX. Q. Were you present when Ashbrook was taken? A. Yes—he fell by the cab rank when he made the rush at Burke, and Cut his face.
JURY to THOMAS BURKE. Q. Were these men pushed about or touched before the assault was commenced? A. No—nothing was done, more than asking them to go on, and they struck us several times—neither Fox nor I had touched them.
The Prisoners received good characters.
ASHBROOK— GUILTY. Recommended to mercy by the Jury. — Confined Four Months . PITFIELD— NOT GUILTY .
OLD COURT.—Wednesday, October 24th, 1866.
Before Mr. Justice Mellor.
MR. DALY conducted the Prosecution.
ELIZABETH PATERSON . I am a widow, living at No. 48, Brunswick Street, Poplar—on Sunday evening, 9th September, the prisoner called on me, in the afternoon—I had known him about eight or nine months—he is a labourer—he is married—he followed me to church on the Sunday afternoon—he walked behind me, not by my side—he did not sit with me—he did not go with my consent—I wished to go by myself—when I came from church he overtook me, about twenty yards from the church—I went home, knocked at my door, and my little girl came from the kitchen with a light, and opened it—the prisoner went into the parlour with me,
and he said to my little girl, "Sarah, take the light away, as your mother can see to take her bonnet off by the light of the lamp"—he then said to me, "Will you be mine?"—I don't remember the answer I made, whether I said I would or would not—I might have said before the magistrate that I said yes, I don't remember now—he caught hold of me vehemently—no other conversation passed—he caught me around, and threw me on the floor, and I instantly felt a knife in my throat, and also one or two cuts across the chin—I felt blood—I rose with a hard struggle to my feet, and made to the street door, and gave an alarm—the prisoner remained in the room, as far as I know—I was taken to a doctor's—I did not see any weapon in the prisoner's hand.
Prisoner. I recollect going indoors, and pulling off my coat and sitting down—I don't remember any more afterwards—something came over me that took all my knowledge right away from me.
COURT. Q. Had the prisoner ever said anything of the same kind to you before? A. No, never—he was always very kind—he had not exhibited any eccentricity or singularity of manner—he talked to me only as a friend—he has no family—I know his brother's widow—my little girl had taken away the candle when this occurred, but the room was not dark—it is lighted by the lamp at the station—the prisoner was always kind and good up to this time, and wished to follow all that was good, his church in particular.
JAMES PONSFORD (Policeman K 260). I took the prisoner into custody—he was all over blood, from a wound in his throat—I had not seen the prosecutrix at that time—when I went in the prisoner looked up at me and said, "Is that you?"—I had a slight knowledge of him—I think I had spoken to him some months, or it might be years, before—I got assistance, and took him to the hospital—he said, "eligion, and going to that church, is the cause of all this"—he was quite sober, but excited—he resisted me when I got him out into the street—I produce a knife, which was handed to me by a man named Boone, in the room—he is not here—the prisoner saw Boone hand it to me—it was open and bloody—he did not say anything upon it—he has been in prison since 19th September—he was in the hospital ten days.
HOWARD BARRETT . I am a surgeon, of 213, East India Road—on Saturday, 9th September, about a quarter past eight, the prosecutrix was brought to my surgery—she was then bleeding profusely from two wounds, one of which, the slighter, was on the chin, the other, and much the larger, was on the left side of the neck, to the extent probably of four inches and a half—it penetrated through the integuments—some of the muscles were partially divided, and one or two small arteries were divided—such a knife as this would produce such a wound—it was a dangerous wound—I saw the prisoner, but only casually—I did not examine him.
JOHN SNOOKS . I am a ship's smith, of 42, Brunswick Street, Poplar—on Sunday evening, 9th September, between eight and nine, I saw the prosecutrix coming out of her house with her throat cut, and bleeding—I took her to a doctor's—I afterwards returned to the house, and saw the prisoner there—he was lying on his back in the passage with his throat cut—Dr. Baines looked at him and said he would be all right presently—the doctor went away—the prisoner got up, and went into the room—I followed him—he said, "Let me alone, let me die quiet"—he then asked me where the woman was—I said she was all right—I asked him why he did it—he said he done it through religion, love, and jealousy, and he
hoped they should both die together, for there was no man on earth that was more just than he—I was present when the knife was found in the room and handed to the policeman.
EDMUND JAMES JONAS (Governor of Newgate, examined by the Court). The prisoner has been in Newgate five weeks—I have seen him daily—his demeanour, has been quiet and inoffensive, and as regular as that of any other prisoner—he has been seen by the surgeon repeatedly—I have had no reason to suppose that his mind was at all affected since he has been with us—I have talked with him occasionally, not on the subject of this charge.
REV. THOMAS EDWARD LLOYD JONES (Chaplain of Newgate). Since the prisoner has been in Newgate I have had frequent opportunities of seeeing him—I have conversed with him on the subject of the charge against him—he seems to have a general recollection of the circumstance, but nothing particular about it—he has been very quiet in his demeanour—he understood perfectly what I said to him—I have spoken to him four or five times—I have not observed anything which gave me the notion that he was of unsound mind—he always struck me as being a dull heavy sort of man—he has conversed on the subject of religion; that he had been a well-Conducted man, and had been in the habit of attending a place of worship constantly for two or three years.
GUILTY of unlawfully wounding. — Confined Six Months .
MESSRS. HARRIS and JUNNER conducted the Prosecution, and MESSRS. PATER and MOODY defended Soley.
REV. FREDERICK GARD FLEAY . I am a clergyman of the Church of England, and reside at Ealing—I keep a boarding school for young gentleman—on Friday night, 28th September, I returned home by the half-past nine train from London—I reached home at ten minutes to ten—I found the house shut up as usual—the part of the boot-house that I examined was carefully shut up—it is at the extreme end of the house, doors open from it into the house—it is all under one roof—there are two outside doors to the boot-house—the one that opens into the open air was securely fastened—the other, which opens into the coal cellar, I did not examine—that door is fastened by a bar—that is the only fastening the coal house has—I was woke next morning about ten minutes to six by the ringing of the door bell—I went down and examined the premises, found the doors open, and missed eleven pairs of boots—a large portion of them I had not seen for some time before—they were the boys' Sunday boots—one pair I had seen the night before—I know both the prisoners, they have been in my employment and in the employment of other persons on the premises.
GEORGE STEELE . I am boot boy in the employment of the Rev. Mr. Fleay, and live in Baker's Lane, Ealing—on the Friday night that the robbery took place the boots were all right—I saw them about half-past Six, when I locked up the cupboard door—I fastened up the door leading into the room at the same time—I put up the wooden bar to one door and bolted the other—one leads into the yard and one leads into the coalshed, and is never opened—whether I went back and opened the doors after-wards I do not know—I cannot say whether the doors were shut or not
when I last saw them—after fastening them I went into the house, and went home between seven and eight—I know three of these boots (produced)—they are odd ones—this one is Mr. Pettifer's—that is one that was left about half-past six—the others belong to Stephen Palmer and Richard Tong—I have cleaned them, and am sure they are theirs—I went to the boot house about a quarter past six the next morning and found the two outside doors open—the wooden bar was lying on the coke—the cupboard was open and the boots gone.
Cross-examined. Q. Do you generally get to the house first? A. Not. always—that morning the painter was there before me—he generally is—he is employed there regularly—these boots were there on the Sunday—they were all right when I locked up the cupboard on Friday night—I am sure these identical boots were then in the cupboard.
GEORGE MILLER (Police Sergeant T 15). In consequence of inquiries I made, I went to. Old Brentford and saw Charles Pierce—I got from him two pairs of boots, which I produce, and also one pair of James Moore.
JAMES DODD (Police Sergeant 21 X). About two o'clock on Thursday afternoon I took Ware into custody at the "Wheatsheaf" public-house, Ealing—I charged him with burglariously entering into Mr. Fleay's premises on the night of the 28th—Constable Blake took Soley there at the same time—he said nothing—we took them to the station—when they were in the dock Soley said that Ware sold the boots—I had told them that they were charged with stealing boots—Ware said that it was no use telling a lie about it, he had sold the boots to a man named Puffy Smith, it was Ware and him did the job—I examined the prosecutor's premises, and the door where the bar was—Constable Blake went outside and put a knife in the crevice of the door, and he chucked up the bar, which fell down and the door opened.
Cross-examined. Q. Was Soley in custody at this time? A. Yes, he had been taken the night before—he was not present when Ware made this statement—I cautioned Ware and told him to be careful of what he said, because it would be given in evidence against him—he afterwards made that statement—I said nothing to him to induce him to make it.
GEORGE BLAKE (Policeman 172 X). From information I received, I went to the prosecutor's on the 4th of October—I examined the premises, and traced footmarks across the path, right up to the boot-house—they were footmarks of persons who had no shoes on—I found the bar of the door down, and lying on some coke—that was no doubt the way they got in—I made a further search, and found the four boots produced in a hollow tree adjoining the premises—on the Thursday morning I went to the "Wheatsheaf" and apprehended the prisoner—at the station Soley said that it was Puffy Smith's barrow that he had up in Ealing on the night he took the boots away.
Cross-examined. Q. Was he in the dock when he said that? A. Yes, at the station—the other constable was not there at that time, he had gone outside—I told him I took him for burglariously entering the Rev. Mr. Fleay's, and stealing boots from there.
Cross-examined. Q. What did you give for them? A. 4s.—that is the
full value—Soley goes about collecting bones and rags—I do not sell any boots—I bought two pairs, one for myself and one for my little girl, on Monday evening—I do not know the day of the month.
MARY ANN GARDNER . I live at Old Brentford—I bought these pair of boots of George Smith on Monday afternoon—I don't know the day of the month—it was about four or five o'clock in the afternoon—it was about a fortnight or three weeks ago.
Cross-examined. Q. What did you pay for them? A. 4s.—I was not asked any more—I consider that a pretty fair price—I have known Soley a short time—he offered the boots openly in my shop.
GEORGE SMITH . I am known by the name of Puffy Smith—I am a labourer, and live at Old Brentford—last Monday three weeks the prisoners came to me with some shoes in a basket—these produced are like them—they asked me if I would buy them—I said, "No"—I don't know which spoke, they were together—I asked if they were right, so that I should not get into any trouble about them—they said they were quite right, I should not get into any trouble, and they asked me to go and sell them for them, and I went and got rid of them—I sold one pair to Moore, two to Charles Pierce, and one to Gardner—the prisoners had part of the money next day, I can't say how much—we had some beer and bread and cheese.
Cross-examined. Q. When the two men come to you was it not Ware who spoke to you? A. I believe it was him that spoke first—they were both together—I believe they both had a say in it—Ware had the boots—I never had any dealings with them before—I was taken into custody about this, for receiving the boots.
Soley received a good character.
WARE— GUILTY .*— Confined Twelve Months . SOLEY— GUILTY .— Confined Ten Months .
MR. GRAIN conducted the Prosecution, and MR. COLLINS the Defence.
JOHN MCADAM . I am a plumber, and live at No. 38, Queen Street, Brompton—about a little after eleven on the night of the 23rd September I was in the Holloway Road, near St. John's Church, and saw the three prisoners coming up the footpath—I met them—Atkins came right up to me, and said, "We want some money"—I refused to give them any,
and told them to go on—he put his hands up to my breast and felt about my waistcoat, and then he put his hand into my right-hand waistcoat pocket, and took out some tobacco—he then put his hand into my left waist-coat pocket—there was nothing there—he then tried my right-hand trousers pocket—I had got my hands and my money in my trousers pockets, and when he did that I said if he attempted to rob me I would blow his brains out—I put my hand into my coat pocket, and he then stepped back a little—the other two went and got a piece of paling from across the road, and Atkins got hold of it in his two hands, and declared he would knock my brains out—this is the little thing (producing a very large stake)—I got hold of it by the middle and prevented him from striking me—I then pretended to get my pistol out again to shoot them—two men were coming up the road at the time, and I suppose they heard them, and were frightened about the pistol, and they took to their heels and ran across some fields—a police sergeant came up in two or three minutes—I told him what had happened, and gave him a description of the men—the other two prisoners did not do any thing—Green told Atkins to poleaxe me—the other did not touch me at all—he was standing by at the time—they were all three standing together when Atkins put his hands in my pockets—I went through the fields with the policeman in search of the prisoners, but did not find them—I went to a friend's house near, and about two hours after-wards a policeman came and fetched me to the station, and told me to go into a room there, and see if I saw the men, and I identified the three of them—there were others in the room, but these three were all sitting together, and I noticed them distinctly—I am quite sure they are the men—when I went in Atkins was lying with his head down on the table—he lifted up his head, looked round at me, and said, "All right; I know what I have done, and I know I shall have to suffer for it;" but he begged that the two other might be let go, as they bad; done nothing—when the inspector asked me what I had lost I felt my pockets, and about my breast, and found I had lost my scarf pin—I had seen it safe about a quarter of an hour or twenty minutes before I met the prisoners—I fortunately had not my watch with me—Atkins punched me in the ribs and up against the wall—he did all the work.
Cross-examined. Q. Where had you been that. evening? A. To see a dying friend, who died the next day—that was about half a mile from this place—this occurred about twenty or twenty-five yards from the "Horse and Groom"—I did not see a lot of persons standing outside the "Horse and Groom" at the time—I had had some tea about seven o'clock that evening, and two or three pennyworth of brandy at the "Lion" public-house—that is about a quarter of a mile from the "Horse and Groom"—I did not go into the "Horse and Groom," it was past eleven o'clock, and they shut at eleven o'clock on Saturdays—Atkins did not come up and ask me for a bit of tobacco—he took French leave and took it—it was loose in my pocket—he put his hand in my pocket, and took what he could find—I had got a sovereign and some silver in my pockets—I stood on the footpath while they went and got the stake from across the road, and then I threatened them with the pistol—I had no pistol—they did not hit me with the stake—I took it from Atkins—I did not call for help—I might be a little frightened, and so would you if you saw a stake like that over your head—it was a moonlight night, I could see more than 200 or 300 yards—I am not see the men coming up till they were close to me—I gave the prisoners an apple each at the station, as they said they were thirsty, and
asked for water—I gave the stake to the sergeant—when he came up I Was standing with it in my hand in the middle of the road looking after the prisoners.
THOMAS STOCKER . I am a labourer, and live at No. 15, Brunswick Place, Upper Holloway—on Sunday night, 23rd September, from eleven o'clock to half-past, I was in the Holloway Road, and saw Atkins put his hands in the prosecutor's pocket—it Was a moonlight night, very clear—I stood about four yards from them—I did not say anything to them—I did not consider that the prosecutor was intoxicated—I was going home—when I saw Atkins put his hands in his pocket I went up to him, and asked how he came to do it, and then he went across the road and fetched the pole—I stood there all the while—they fetched the pole from a brokendown fence—when they said they would poleaxe him I went across the road, and said, "No, you won't poleaxe him while I am here," and Atkins said to the prosecutor, "If you touch me I shall poleaxe you with this piece of wood"—the prosecutor took hold of the stake, and Atkins again said he would poleaxe him.
COURT. Q. Why did not you lay hold of one of them? A. I don't know—I stood there and saw it, and the sergeant came down—I did not know whether they were robbing him—I saw their hands in his pockets—I did not know what they were feeling for—the prisoners ran away up St. John's Villas—when the sergeant came up we told him about it, and I and the prosecutor went with him round the fields to look for them, but we could not find them then—I am sure the prisoners are the men.
Cross-examined. Q. Was there not another young man with you? A. No—I was by myself—there was a young man there, named Kester—I don't know where he was—I was about four yards from the prisoners when they came up—I did not hear Atkins say, "Come, old fellow, give us a bit of tobacco"—this happened right opposite the door of the "Horse and Groom," close to the paling.
JOHN HARRISON (Policeman Y 27). On Sunday night, 23rd September, about a quarter past eleven o'clock, I received information that a gentleman had been robbed near the "Horse and Groom" public-house—I went down the Holloway Road, and there saw the prosecutor standing in the road with the pole in his hand—from what he told me, I went and searched round several fields, but could not find the men—I took a description of them—at two o'clock in the morning I went to the back of the "Horse and Groom," and in a stable found all the three prisoners sleeping. together—I told them they were charged with robbing a man on the highway—Childs and Green said they knew nothing of it—Atkins made no remark in reference to the charge, but used disgusting language towards me—I got assistance, and they were taken to the station—Childs and Green there denied the charge, but Atkins said, "I admit to it, I did it, the other two know nothing about it; let them go and see after my horses"—that was when the charge was read over to him—the prosecutor had said in their presence, "I charge these three with stopping me and attempting to rob me"—Atkins had no horses of his own there—his master had some, that he was looking after.
ATKINS received a good character.
NOT GUILTY .
NEW COURT.—Wednesday, October 24th, 1866.
Before Mr. Baron Pigott.
MR. GRIFFITHS Conducted the Prosecution.
CHARLES JONES . I am a labourer, of No. 3, Mermaid Yard, Chelsea—on 13th September, about two o'clock, I was walking in George Street when Keefe jumped out from a corner, and struck me on the chest twice with his fist—the second blow knocked me across the pavement against some shutters—he then closed on me, put his arm round my throat and hurt me—two other men came up—one seized me by one hand and one by the other—Graham is one of them—I knew him by sight before, but not by name—two constables came up, and while they were coming up the prisoners ran away—I missed 7s. 9d. from my trousers pocket, which was turned inside out—I stood against the shutters insensible, which was caused by Keefe throttling me—he held me four or five minutes by the throat—I heard money drop on the pavement.
Keefe. Q. Was I standing there when the policeman ordered me away? A. I was insensible, I cannot say—I had threepence in copper—I stated before, you mentioned dropping some coppers—I was perfectly sober—I was not talking to a, prostitute—I was leaning against the shutters after you struck me—I was excited, but, when I came to, I told the constable I had been robbed.
Graham. Q. How can you swear that I was one of them if you were insensible? A. You had me by the collar—I was not insensible until I was held by the throat—I did not see you sitting on the stone coping outside Chelsea Barracks—I gave a. description of you, and did not see you till you were in the station on the Sunday afternoon.
EDWARD HUSDEN (Policeman 116 B). On the 23rd September, about two in the morning, I was with another constable in Queen's Road East—a woman told me something—I went towards George Street, and just before I got there heard some money rattling on the pavement—I turned the corner and saw Jones leaning against the shutters of a house—I could not see him till I turned the corner—Keefe was standing by him picking up some money, and Graham and another man ran away as soon as I appeared—I told Keefe to go away, because he had been creating several disturbance in the course of the evening—I did not know then what had happened—Jones could not speak then, and I thought he was drunk, but after Keefe had gone, Jones made a communication to me, in consequence of which I ran after Keefe, and could not catch him, as he ran round into a courts—I went with Smith in search of the prisoners—I took Keefe, and shortly afterwards Graham—they were together when we took Keefe in the Grosvennor Road, but they were not apprehended together—that is about 200, yards from, where the robbery was—I did not take Keefe, because I had not had a description of him from Jones—they were walking deliberately along the street when I went up to them—Jones's trousers pocket was hanging out.
Keefe. Q. You say I ran away, did not you tell me to go? A. Yes—you might have stopped two or three minutes—you picked up some money.
Graham. Q. You and Smith knew we were both wanted; did not I
follow you to the station? A. Yes, but I did not take you, because I had not had a description of you—I knew you were there, and I saw you with Keefe when I took him—Smith was with me when I took Keefe—I did not hear him say that he had a description of you—I was on one side of the street, and Smith on the other—if you sat on the stone coping when you came back from following us to the station I did not see you—we passed the stone coping with the prosecutor at four o'clock on Sunday afternoon—that is outside Chelsea New Barracks—we went along the opposite side of the street to where the coping is—you were standing out-side the "White Horse" when I and Smith came from the station—Smith went over and said, "Graham, I shall take you as well as Keefe"—you said, "What for?"—he said, "For being concerned in a robbery last night"—you were then 150 yards from the coping—I did not say to the inspector at the station that you were very drunk.
COURT. Q. When did Jones first describe Graham to you? A. On the Sunday afternoon—I did not see him after the robbery till Sunday afternoon.
WILLIAM WATLING (Policeman 197 B). On the 23rd September, about two o'clock, I was with Husden in White Lion Street—I went with him along the Queen's Road, in the direction of George Street, and heard money fall on the pavement—I saw Jones leaning against some shutters at the corner of George Street, and Keefe stooping two or three yards from him picking something up—he was ordered away by the other constable—some other men ran away—I believe Graham to be one of them, but cannot swear to him—Jones seemed to be in a drunken state; he could not speak, but when he came to himself he said he had been robbed—his right-hand trousers pocket was hanging out—I believe him to have been quite sober—there was no woman there.
Keefe. Q. Did you tell me to go away? A. Yes—I did not hear you say, "What shall I go for?"—you said something, I do not know what—I did not say, "If you do not go I will kick you"—you were in Graham's company, before that, at the "Sun" public-house.
PETER SMITH (Policeman 163 B). On the 23rd September, about two o'clock, I received information, and went in search of Keefe and two more men, and I found the prisoners together in Grosvenor Road, Pimlico—Keefe had been described to me, and I was told there were two more—we gradually got round them, and I took Keefe—I said, "Keefe, I shall take you into custody for being concerned with two more in a highway robbery, with violence, at the corner of George Street, at two o'clock in the morning"—he said, "You won't take me by yourself"—I put up my hand, and Husden came across, and we took him to the station—Graham followed us there—from what Husden said, I thought it would not be safe to take any more until I had seen Jones, as I did not know anything about it, or where he lived—Husden did not say that it would be desirable to take Graham—we took Keefe to the station and then went to Jones—he came to the station, and we asked him if he could describe the others—in consequence of what he said, I took Graham ten minutes afterwards—I said, "I shall take you for being concerned with Keefe in committing a high-way robbery with violence, at two o'clock in the morning"—he said, "I know nothing about it. Where did it happen?"—I said, "At the corner of George Street," and pointed out the spot—he said he was drunk on Chelsea Common at two o'clock in the morning, and that he could prove—Jones identified him as soon as he saw him.
Keefe. Q. Did I offer any resistance? A. No, but you said I should not take you by myself—I did say I had taken a better man than you and I hoped I should again—that was to show you that I was not frightened of you—I did not say I was very glad of the chance of locking you up.
Graham. Q. Did not you tell the Magistrate that you received information from the prosecutor on Sunday that me and Keefe were wanted? A. No, I had not seen him—the Magistrate did not say it was false—he said he did not believe the way we stated that we apprehended the prisoners—he did not say he had meant many times to tell us before, and now was a very good opportunity to do it—he did not turn me out of the box—he said it was very strange that two constables should only take one man, and I gave him the reason—I did not say that I took you because you had white trousers on—Jones did not say that one had white trousers on.
COURT to CHARLES JONES. Q. This happened at two o'clock in the morning; what had you been doing from the time you left work? A. I had been to Shoreditch Theatre—I was walking home—I had not been drinking.
Keefe's Defence. I was standing at the time the constable came up—he told me to go away, and I walked away—I was soft taken till next day, when I was charged with highway robbery, with violence—Graham was not there at all.
Graham's Defence. I was not near the place—I have not been at Chel-sea since I came from the infirmary three months ago.
GUILTY .—KEEFE, Five Years' Penal Servitude, and twenty-one lashes with the army cat . GRAHAM was further charged with having been before convicted at Newington, in March, 1861, to which he PLEADED GUILTY.— Confined Eighteen Months .
MR. HOUSTON conducted the Prosecution.
JABETH THOMAS CHORLEY . I work, at a corn dealer's, and live at No. 9, Aston's Buildings, Battersea—on Sunday night, 23rd September, I was going along Bridge Road, Chelsea, at a few minutes past eleven, and saw the prisoner opposite Chelsea Barracks gate—I was on the opposite side of the way—the prisoner was quarrelling with a female, who called out, "Bill" or "Tom"—I am not sure which—the female came across the road, and the prisoner followed her, struck her twice or three times, and commenced kicking her—I have seen her before, and knew her by sight—he commenced kicking her, and then he pulled out his knife, and said he would stab her—she ran behind me, and he made a strike with his left hand—I put up my right hand to avoid the blow, and he struck me on the chest with his right hand—he had a knife in his right hand—he stabbed me just here. (At the bottom of the chest)—I do not think he had a knife in both hands—I did not know I was stabbed until I saw the blood running down my trousers—I was taken to the hospital, where I have been till last Wednesday—I had never seen the prisoner before—he was the worse for
liquor—I was quite sober—I had not had any beer since dinner—I did not give him any provocation—I only told the girl to come away.
Prisoner. Q. Did I say I would stab the girl? A. Yes; you kicked her, and pulled out your knife, and said, "I will stab you with this."
MICHAEL MOORE . I am a tailor, of 19, Stratham Place, Fulham Road—on Sunday night, 23rd September, I was in Bridge Road, Chelsea—it had just gone eleven o'clock—I saw the prisoner there against the barrack railings, on the opposite side of the road—I saw no one with him until I heard a woman halloa on the other side, and then I saw a female—the prisoner walked over—I saw the prisoner walk across the road to Chorley and put his hand in his right-hand pocket, and give him a blow in the stomach—I did not know he had a knife—I saw the blow given by the prisoner to the prosecutor—I did not know the prisoner had a knife in his hand until after the girl put her hand into Chorley's trousers and pulled it out red with blood—I turned the prisoner round, and advised him to put the knife away, but he did not—I held him till a policeman came up—I did not see the last witness do anything to the prisoner—I was looking at some soldiers—the prisoner was very drunk—he walked up and down at the station raving.
JAMES MARTIN . I am a labourer, of 24, Arthur Street, Battersea—I was going along Bridge Street on Sunday night, 23rd September, a few minutes after eleven—I saw the prisoner go across the road and strike at Chorley with his left hand and stab him with his right—he kicked the girl twice—I saw the knife in his hand when he struck the prosecutor—I went and got the police.
ELLEN FRANCES BANKS . I am single—on Sunday, 23rd September, I was going along Bridge Street, Chelsea—I saw the prisoner—he was intoxicated—I walked about 100 yards. with him, I should think—we had no quarrel till we got to the barrack gates, when he turned round and said I robbed him, and struck me—I saw Chorley on the opposite side—I went over, and the prisoner followed me and kicked me—he put his hand in his waistcoat pocket, drew a knife, and said he would stab me—I went behind Chorley, and he stabbed him instead of me—Chorley did not give him any provocation—the police came up, and the prisoner was given in custody.
Prisoner. Q. I did not strike you? A. You kicked me three times—I did not hit you in the face—I did throw a handful of slush at you after the stab, because you were coming after me again—I took no money from you.
WILLIAM WATLING (Policeman 197 B). I was on duty in the Bridge Road about twenty minutes past ten, heard a cry of "Police!" and saw the prosecutor supported by two witnesses—the prisoner was pointed out as the man who stabbed him—I took him in custody, and Banks said, "He has the knife now in his hand"—I took this knife from his right hand—he said, "I have done it. What I have done I have done in self-defence. They had two knives"—he complained going to the station of being robbed of his money, which was in a red sock, by Banks—on searching him another knife was found in his trousers pocket—Chorley was sent away to the hospital in a cab—I was under the impression that I took a black horn handled knife from him, but he said, "No, it was the buckthorn handled knife I did it with."
Prisoner. You laid hold of my hand before I could say anything, and they felt the knife in my hand, but I did not know that it was there; you
said, "This is the knife"—I said, "That is a falsehood"—I did not know that I had the knife in my possession—you said, "Have you got another?"—I said, "Yes," and pulled it out of my coat pocket, and now you swear you took it out—the sergeant never saw me in possession of it.
Witness. You were quite drunk.
WALTER PURCHASE (Police-Sergeant 10 B). On Sunday night, 23rd September, I was in College Road police-station—the prisoner was brought in about half-past eleven—I stated the charge to him, and finding Chorley to be in such a sinking state, I ordered his immediate removal to the hospital—the prisoner made a statement that I took down at the time—he said, "I paid for drink at Mr. Paine's public-house for all of them in the road,—the female robbed me, and called me a b—sod, threw mud at me, and called out 'Bill'—the men came up—I do not know that I have done any wrong—life against life—they had two knives to me—they made an attack on me—I kicked them—I held the knife and threatened them—I do not know that I used it—I might have done so—I asked for Sergeant Marsh, at Chelsea Barrack gate, to get rid of them—the soldiers at the gate would not let me in—the female has my money, it is in a red sock—I think it is about eighteenpence"—at the hospital I produced two knives, one was given to me by police-constable Watling at the station, the other was taken from his fob-pocket—the police-constable expressed a doubt as to the knife I produced being the one he took from the prisoner, and he replied, "It was the black-handled one that I done it with."
Prisoner. I never said that I had done it.
GIFFARD HANSFORD . I am house surgeon at St. George's Hospital—I examined Chorley there, about half-past eleven at night, on 23rd September—he had a wound in the abdomen, about two inches above the ribs, and two inches to the left of the navel—he was so faint from loss of blood that I thought it necessary to send for a Magistrate to take his depositions—it did not go into the stomach or bowels—he is perfectly well now—this knife would inflict the wound'—he remained in the hospital till 17th October.
The prisoner produced a written defence, stating that Banks robbed him of some money and threw mud at him, but that he had no knowledge of taking a knife out of his pocket, being deep in liquor. GUILTY of unlawfully wounding. — Confined Nine Months .
MR. M. WILLIAMS conducted the Prosecution.
WILLIAM EATENTON . I am a harbour-master's waterman—on 10th October, about half-past three in the morning, I was awoke by a violent screaming in the house—I got up and went downstairs with my son-in-law—I opened the door of the servant's bedroom and found the prisoner there—the servant girl was in bed—I opened the street door to call for the police, and found that the top bolt had been forced, the socket into which the bolt goes was lying on the floor—the prisoner appeared half stupid, more like a lunatic than anything—he offered no defence whatever—he said, "I could get out if I liked."
ANNIE MARIA BARON . I sleep on the first floor—I heard the smashing of glass—I asked twice who it was and received no answer—it was dark—I screamed out for my cousin, a young man named Thomas—the prisoner said, "Oh! I have made a mistake and come to the wrong room; do open
the door, pray open the door; I have made a mistake and come to the wrong house"—I had never seen him before—my master then came.
CHARLES STEPHENS (Policeman 496 K). I heard a violent screaming, ran to the prosecutor's house, and found the prisoner in the custody of Mr. Eatenton and his son-in-law—he said that he had made a mistake in the house, and it was all right—I searched him and found this large stone, this box of matches, and these other stones tied up in a handkerchief (produced)—the bolt of the street door had been forced, and the catch forced away—I asked him who he was—he said a charcoal burner—he refused to give his name and address, but afterwards told the inspector—he afterwards told me he was a tallow-candle maker—he was quite sober.
THOMAS WILLIAM EATENTON . I am the prosecutor's son, and live at 2, Church Row, Stepney—on 10th October I came home between ten minutes and a quarter past twelve—I let myself in and fastened the doors back and front—my father called me up about half-past three, and I found the prisoner in the servant's bedroom.
The Prisoner's Statement before the Magistrate:—"I was the worse for drink and went into the wrong house, the girl was screaming for some time before any one came—I did not attempt to get away—I knew I had made a mistake when I heard a noise in the room."
Prisoner's Defence. I had been drinking nearly all day—I went home about half-past twelve to my own house, but could not make them hear—I knocked at the shutters with two stones, but was not aware that I put them into my pocket—I felt very bad, sat on the step, and went to sleep—when I awoke I kicked the door with my heels, thinking it was my own door—I went in, took my coat off, and went to sit down on the bed where my own bed would have been, and fell staggering backwards against a glass, and the girl said, "You have come into the wrong bedroom"—I said, "I have come into the wrong house as well"—she began screaming—I told her not to scream, as I should not attempt to get away till somebody came—it was eight or nine minutes before anybody came—I waited till three men came down—I had plenty of time to get away.
COURT to WILLIAM EATENTON. Q. When you came down had the prisoner his coat on or off? A. On, but his waistcoat was all unbuttoned—he lives at 4, North Street, Bethnal Green, about two miles from my house. GUILTY .— Confined Eighteen Months .
915. HIGINIA RODRIGUEZ (23), Feloniously, and without lawful authority, having in his custody two metal dies, two metal counters, and a wooden block, on each of which was engraved parts of an undertaking for the payment of money.
MESSRS. GIFFARD and POLAND conducted the prosecution, and MESSRS. LEWIS and COLLINS the Defence.
THOMAS AMBROSE POTTER (Police Inspector). On 21st September I gave instructions to Ranger and Knowles, police officers—on 29th September, about noon, I went to Mr. Neal's shop, a diesinker, of 19, Perceval Street, Clerkenwell—I went into the back parlour—the two constables were in the street—the prisoner came into the shop about three o'clock with another man, Claramont, and said, "Good morning, sir, are those things done?" Mr. Neal said, "Yes, they are quite ready"—the prisoner spoke to the other man in a foreign language—Mr. Neal passed round the counter, and got this press and die and counterpart as it now appears—it is an octagonal die—the prisoner and Claramont examined it, and the
prisoner said that it would do very well—Mr. Neal said to the prisoner, "Here is your screwdriver, for which I paid 1s.," and gave it him—Mr. Neal did the press up with the die, and Claramont took possession of it, and took some money from his pocket, which he laid on the counter, and the prisoner shoved it up to Mr. Neal, who took it—they then turned round to leave and bade Mr. Neal good afternoon—the prisoner said that he should call again on Monday or Tuesday, and give further orders—I was all this time in the back parlour—I could not hear everything that passed—I left the shop two minutes after them, and found the prisoner, the two officers, and Claramont outside—I followed them to Tysoe Street, Wilmington Square, Clerkenwell, where they both went into Mr. Manuel's, a brassfounder—they were in there a minute and a half or two minutes—I was going in and met them coming out—I walked in front of them to Farringdon Road, and the two officers were behind them—the prisoner and Claramont walked arm in arm—on arriving at the corner of Calthorpe Terrace, Farringdon Road, finding they were close to me, I turned round and said, "I am a police inspector, and those are two police officers," pointing to the officers behind them—the prisoner said, "Oh! my God, it is a bad job"—I told them I should charge them with being concerned with a man in custody in committing frauds on the Spanish government—the other two officers took the prisoners, and I took this press (produced) from under Claramont's arm—he resisted, I called the assistance of some gentlemen passing, and then ordered the constables to search the prisoner—I searched Claramont, and found in his coat pocket this round die and the counterpart, one on steel and the other on copper, this pocket-book, containing a large portion of a genuine Spanish note with the signature torn off, this envelope, on which are the impressions of the two dies, the round die and the octagonal one, a number of letters, some Bank of England notes, and some gold, which has been given up to him—I afterwards went to 91, Guildford Street, Russell Square—I had previously seen the prisoner and Claramont go in and out there—the landlady showed me a bedroom there, in which I found a portmanteau containing this type case (produced)—I also found some brass figures which fit into the type case, and will make figures similar to these large figures on the genuine note—I have tried them—I also found in a book in his box this piece of paper, with some figures impressed upon it in dirty blue ink.
Cross-examined. by MR. LEWIS. Q. You say that a screwdriver was produced, for which Mr. Neal said he paid 1s., who took it? A. I believe the prisoner took it, but I found it on Claramont—I will not say that Claramont did not take it up—I said to the best of my belief—I said before the Magistrate that my impression was that Claramont took it.
MR. LEWIS submitted that, under Mr. Denman's Act, he could ask the witness the question without putting in the depositions.
MR. GIFFARD contended that that enactment had nothing to do with the rule of law. A document could always be put into a witness's hand to refresh his memory. Mr. Denman's Act, though it had altered the rules of evidence, had not altered the law, and the practice was not to allow the question to be put without putting the deposition into the witness's hands.
MR. LEWIS Q. I warn you, and ask you whether you did not say
before the Magistrate that Claramont took possession of the screwdriver also? A. I believe I did, but I cannot swear it—Mr. Neal held it up, and said, "Here is the screwdriver"—I have heard that Rodriguez is interpreter at the Bridge House Hotel, Blackfriars—I saw him searched—I did not see two letters taken from him, but I have seen the letters—I searched his room, and found a pocket-book, with a strap round it, which I left there—I did not examine it and find entries of sums of money which he had received—I brought a number of things away which have been applied for by Mr. Lewis and given up, but I did not give up the pocket-book—I did not take it away from the lodging—I opened it, to see if there was anything in it with reference to these notes—I did not examine it sufficiently to see that it was an account-book—it was a pocket-book with memoranda in it—I do not know whether there were any memoranda in it of payments by Claramont to him for interpreting.
MR. POLAND. Q. Was the pocket-book you produce found at Guild-ford Street? A. Yes—the other pocket-book was found at Guildford Place, about 100 yards from Guildford Street—one is the prisoner's lodging, and the other Claramont's.
GEORGE RANGER (Policeman 199 C). I gave Mr. Neal instructions in September, and with another constable watched his shop, 19, Perceval Street—on 24th September I went into the shop—Knowles remained out-side—I went into the back parlour, and while I was there the prisoner came in with Claramont—it was then a few minutes past three—I heard what passed—the prisoner said to Mr. Neal, "Good afternoon"—they went into the shop, and said, "Is the die as nigh like the note?"—Mr. Neal said that he believed it was—the prisoner then asked Mr. Neal the price of a press—I could not catch the price—he then asked the scale of it—Mr. Neal said, "15lbs." (the scale is the pressure)—the prisoner asked if that would be sufficient pressure—Mr. Neal said that he believed that it would—the prisoner said, "I suppose this one will be more money?"—Mr. Neal said, "Yes; 18s. more"—when they left I followed them into Guildford Street, where they joined a man not in custody, and when close to the doorstep of No. 91 I saw the prisoner put what I believe to be a die into the other man's hand—it was not wrapped up—the other man looked at it, and the prisoner said, "It is done very nicely"—they all went into No. 91, and remained there some time—the prisoner and the third man then came out, and went to No. 3, Guildford Place, where I left them—on Saturday, 29th September, Knowles and I were standing outside Neal's shop, when Potter went in—I saw the prisoner and Claramont go in about three o'clock, and saw them come out—Potter came out after them—I followed them to Mr. Manuel's, in Tysoe Street—they came out again, and went to Farringdon Road, where I took the prisoner—he said, "My God, it is a bad job, I am only an interpreter"—I searched him at the station, and found a complete note for 200 reals—this wood engraving, with the name of Manuel Losada, was in his waistcoat pocket, and two pieces of a note, the filagree outside part—this (produced) is the third piece, containing the name of Manuel Losada—those three pieces were all in the prisoner's pocket-book—I also found a bill, "Received 22nd September, 1866, of Mr. A. Munoz 4l., on account of engraving, with thanks. Sher-bourne, 22, Warwick Street, Regent Street," and some pieces of tissue paper, with the letters "La Sala" and something before it—it is the tracing of some letters of similar size to those on the note.
Cross-examined. by MR. LEWIS. Q. Did Rodriguez go quietly?
Yes—Claramont resisted slightly—here are some letters which I found on the prisoner—I did not produce them before because I was not asked—I did not hear Mr. Poland undertake at the police court that they should be produced—I have not read them, but I see there is something from a sweetheart—I do not know that one is from Claramont to the prisoner—I do not know what they contain—I cannot speak Spanish.
RALPH NEAL . I am a die-sinker, of No. 19, Perceval Street, Clerkenwell—on 17th September the prisoner came there—I asked him into the counting-house—he produced something like a note, and asked me if I could engrave a die or stamp the same that was on the note—this is the note (produced)—I said that I could, but complained of its being rather an imperfect impression—he said, "If you hold it to the window and look on the other side you will see better." (That was looking at the reverse side). "If you use a strong glass you will be able to see"—he then asked the price, and I think I told him 2l.—he said it was rather dear, and I agreed to do it for 1l. 18s.—he wanted it in two or three days—I said I could not do it in the time, and promised to get it done on the Monday following—he said he could not wait so long, and I agreed to get it done by Friday, by four o'clock—he then left—I saw two stamps on the note, and asked him if he required the second—he said, no, they would only require the one—it was plural, either "We" or "They"—I asked him if he required a press—he said, "No"—I put myself into communication with the police, and what I did afterwards I did under their directions—the prisoner came again on the Friday, and asked me if the stamp was done—I said, "No"—he brought out another note, and told me he wanted the round stamp engraved—he gave me a small piece of paper of the size of the round stamp, and the letters round it—that was for the size—I suppose he thought the impression imperfect, but he did not say so—this lettering was round it when he gave it to me: "Eliz. II. Dei Grat. Hispan. Regina"—the second note was produced, and he asked me which note I should require—I went to the light to look, and said I thought I had better have the two, the impression of one being perfect on one side, and the other on the other side—he asked the price of several presses, and picked up a very small one, and asked if I thought that would do—I told him the power was not sufficient, and showed him a large fly press, but he said that was too much, and took too much room, as he wanted it to put it in a box to send it abroad—I ultimately sold him the press at 2l. 18s. with the die and counterpart all complete—he brought out a 5l. note, and said he would pay me first—I gave him the change—he asked me if I could do wood engraving—I said no; but I had a brother-in-law in that line, and I gave him the addresses of several parties—I agreed to get the first stamping press ready by Monday, the octagonal one—he paid me for the press and die, but did not take them away—Ranger came to my place, by arrangement, on 24th September—the things were to be ready between three and four o'clock that day—I put him into a back parlour, and the prisoner and Claramont came about four o'clock—that was the first time I had seen Claramont—the prisoner asked me if the die was done, but previously to that he had given me his address as B. Claramont, Guildford Place, Russell Square—I do not know the number—he gave me that address in writing—I gave him a pen and ink, and he wrote it down—I do not know where it is—they had to wait ten minutes, as the press was not quite finished—I then took an impression of the die by the press which had been purchased, and showed it to them—I then gave him the notes to
correspond with the impression—he asked me whether it was exactly like the impression, and I gave him a pair of compasses to measure with—he measured it, showed it to Claramont, and told me it would do very nicely indeed—after that the octagonal stamp was taken out of the press to allow me to fit the other die in, and I gave the stamp to the prisoner, and I think he gave it to Claramont—I marked both the notes—he asked a second time which of the two notes I should require—I picked out the best impression, and gave the prisoner the other back—a further sum of 2l. was paid on account by Claramont—the round die was to be ready by the Friday, but it was ultimately arranged to be ready by Saturday at twelve o'clock—before they left I told the prisoner that one press had about one quarter more power than the one he chose—the prisoner asked me to get him a screwdriver, so that he might take one die out and put the other in, which I did—one of my men made it—I communicated with the police, and on Saturday it was arranged that the police should come—the octagonal stamp will make the facsimile of the impression on the note—they took that away on Monday—that is the one that was measured by the compasses—it bore on it Emissium debillitum, and at the bottom Lex. quartier Rey.—it would produce an impression on paper—on the Saturday, between two and three o'clock, they both came again and asked me if the stamp was done—I said, "Yes,"—I asked them into the counting-house and made these two impressions with the round stamp on this envelope—I then took the round stamp out and put the octagonal one in and made an octagonal stamp on the same envelope—the octagonal stamp was left in the press when they took it away, just as it is now—I showed both of them how to use it, and Claramont took several impressions—I asked the prisoner if he would have a receipt, but he said that he did not require one—the screwdriver was to take one stamp out and put the other in—there are two screws to take the counterpart out, and one to take the die out.
Cross-examined. by MR. LEWIS. Q. When Claramont was present did he talk Spanish to the prisoner? A. Yes—he did not pay for the first dies—he was present when the money was paid—I gave the prisoner the die and the press, and he gave them to Claramont—I left him going out at the door with them—Claramont took away both the dies—I communicated with the police.
JURY. Q. What was the reason you took the order? Did not you think that these men gave you an illegal order? A. Certainly not—I should not have thought of taking an order of this kind without a deposit—I was told I was not doing wrong, and I did not think I was till I had half executed the die, when I communicated with the police.
COURT. Q. When did you first discover it? A. Several of my friends told me it was wrong, and my brother-in-law and my father told me so—I have been a die-sinker nearly eleven years and am well known as such—I communicated with the police three days after I had the order.
CHARLES WILLIAM SHERBOURNE . I am an engraver, of 22, Warwick Square, Regent Street—on Wednesday, 26th September, the prisoner came to my shop with Mr. Salvatella, whom I know, and who introduced him to me—the prisoner produced a 200 reals note, and asked me if I could engrave it, explaining that I was to leave out the figures and the signatures—he asked what it would cost—I asked who it was for—he said, "For a Spanish gentleman in the city"—I told him I should require a little time to think it over, and I think he agreed to call at four o'clock—I requested him to bring the gentleman with him—he came again at four o'clock alone, and I told
him it would cost 8l. on copper, and 12l. on steel—I said, "I shall require the name of the gentleman whom it is for, and a deposit"—he left and brought me 4l. deposit between ten and eleven next morning—I gave him this receipt, which was, I believe, found on him and produced to day—he told me to get on with it as nicely as possible—I said that I could not do it without another note, because the writing on the side was not perfect—he said that he would get another note from Spain, and a gentleman would bring it in about a week—he left, and I consulted some friends, and went to the Spanish embassy and made a communication—the next I heard of the prisoner was, that he was taken in custody—I never saw Claramont—the part I was to do was all the lettering and the engine-turning—on the note left with me there is an erasure under the cornucopia—I told the prisoner it would be a month engraving.
Cross-examined. by MR. LEWIS. Q. Do you say that one of the notes is not perfect? A. the margin is not.
JOHN WILLIAM SCOWEN . I live at 63, Newman Street, Oxford Street, and am in partnership with Mr. Deane—on 12th September Claramont came, Rodriguez spoke to me, handed me a note, and asked me if I could engrave the whole of it—I said, "No, not the whole of it; you will have to go to a diesinker and a seal cutter to get the dies engraved for the stamps and impressions; I can engrave the note, but not the dies on it," and that I would let him know about it in a day or two—they both left, and a day or two afterwards the prisoner came by himself—he said that there were some numbers on the note, and he wanted to get them done to stamp them on—I said that he must have a tracing—he asked me to give him a tracing, which I did, and he said that it would do—he asked me the price—I told him I could not let him know then, but I would to-morrow or the day after—I ultimately decided on having nothing to do with it—I did not see the prisoner again—he did not come to learn my determination—he had left his address, 3, Guildford Place, with me, and I sent the note back there.
GEORGE JOSEPH EVANS . I am a wood engraver, of 42, Acton Street, Gray's Inn Road—on 25th September the prisoner called on me, and produced this piece of paper with a signature on it (produced)—he asked me if I could engrave it by foreign post-time next day—I said that I could—he left it with me—he did not come next night, but the next morning—I had got this block ready (produced)—he asked me how much it would be—I said, "5s."—he paid for it and left—I gave him an India proof, which he took away—he came to me the same afternoon and brought the block and the proof, which was pencilled in three places—this is it (produced)—he said that he should require it to be done again with the pencil alterations, because he wanted it exactly like the original—I said that I would do it—it was to be ready by post-time the following day—he left the proof and block with me, and next day I made this fresh engraving on another block—he called about seven o'clock—I showed him a proof, he examined it very minutely with the original, and said he thought there were two letters which wanted the least shaving taken off—I looked at them, I had not noticed the deviation before—I took a shaving off in his presence, and then gave him the new engraving and kept the old one and the pencil proof—I did not charge anything for the second block, as the first was not so correct as it ought to have been.
Cross-examined. by MR. LEWIS. Q. Did you go to the door when he left? A. I let him out—I did not see Claramont there, or any other person.
JOHN WILLIAM WATERS . I am foreman to Mr. Manual, a type-founder, of 19, Tysoe Street, Clerkenwell—on 15th September the prisoner called there and showed me two pieces of tracing paper with figures drawn on them—he asked me if I could cut some figures exactly the same—I said yes, we had some already in stock in cast brass—he said that he was afraid they would not do, as he wanted them executed like the pattern—I showed them to him—he placed them together and said that there was not the same distance between the figures as there was in the pattern—I told him I would cut him some—he told me to cut five of each, and the figures 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 9, and 0—I asked him if I should cut the 4, 6, and 7—he said no, he would bring me the pattern for those—he mentioned a type case, but did not give me the order then—the order was to be executed on the next Wednesday—he called on Wednesday or Thursday, and I said that they were not ready, but I would do them next week—he called on the following Monday, they were not done, and he asked when he should have them for certain—I said on Friday—he said that they were for a shipping order, or were going abroad—he then showed me two pieces of tracing paper, with the letters B and J J on one, and Y and V on the other, and asked me to cut them exactly the same as the pattern, but on longer brass than ordinary, as he wanted them to place in a handle—he also ordered a type case to hold six of the figures—I promised him that they should all be ready for certain on Friday night—he called on Friday about half-past seven, and asked me if they were done—I said that they were—the shop was shut, and he came through the side door—I gave them to him, and asked him what name I should make the invoice out in—he said "Claramont"—I did so, and he gave me the money—he then noticed that the V on one of the little letters was a little shorter than the other—I looked at it and saw that it was so—I told him I would alter it for him the following day at five o'clock—he then left—I have got some of the letters I made in accordance with the tracing—the type figures I made would make similar figures to these on the note—this letter B corresponds with the B on the torn note.
CAROLINE WEST . I live at 91, Guildford Street, which is a private hotel for Spaniards—on 8th September Claramont came to live there—he had a bedroom there, and used the common room for his meals—that bed-room was the one the police searched—while he was there I saw the prisoner nearly every day; he always saw Claramont—Claramont does not speak English, and the prisoner very little.
Cross-examined. by MR. LEWIS. Q. Did you know the prisoner before Claramont came to lodge at your house? A. No—I knew the prisoner as interpreter to Claramont—Claramont recommended the prisoner to me as a very good interpreter, so much so that I spoke to the prisoner about it.
NICASO EMIDGO JURALDE . I am a Spaniard, and hold an office corresponding to the English Mint in manufacturing notes—I am connected with the Spanish Financial Commission which sits in London—these three notes (produced) represent 200 reals which is copper Spanish money—the value in English is about 2l.—here are two signatures of the officers of the Spanish Mint—La-Sala is one of the Board of Money—these notes are in the form in which notes are made.
The prisoner received a good character. GUILTY. Strongly recommended to mercy by the Jury, believing him to have been the tool of others. — Five Years' Penal Servitude .
THIRD COURT.—Wednesday, October 24th, 1866.
Before Robert Malcolm Kerr, Esq.
916. WILLIAM CHARLES HADDON (58) , Stealing on 26th February an order for the payment of 277l. 14s.; on 1st March an order for 215l. 16s. 10d.; and on 27th March an order for 101l. 5s. 8d., the property of John James Russell.
MESSRS. METCALFE and F. LEWIS conducted the Prosecution, and MESSRS. H. GIFFARD, Q. C., and STRAIGHT the Defence.
GEORGE SILAS GUY . I reside at Wednesbury, Staffordshire, and am an accountant in the service of Mr. James Russell, the prosecutor, who is a tube manufacturer there—I have been an accountant about ten years, during which period I have known the prisoner in Mr. Russell's service—he had a London house at Upper Ground Street, Blackfriars, of which the prisoner had the management—the accounts connected with that house passed through my hands—I produce the cash-book kept by the prisoner—the usual mode of business was for them to receive orders at the London warehouse, to transmit them to Wednesbury, and for us to supply those orders—they collected the money and remitted it to us at Wednesbury—we sent the goods according to instructions either to the warehouse, or to the party who ordered them—the course of business was for the prisoner to receive money and to remit it to the Wednesbury house, less any payment for salaries or accounts that he might have in London—I produce a remittance note of 26th February, 1864, in the prisoner's handwriting—by this note he remitted 452l. 17s. 3d. (The witness read the several items and the letter accompanying the remittance.) I find the items corresponding to that remittance note, in the cash-book—the cash-book shows receipts to the amount of 770l. 7s. 6d.—his remittance and payments was 544l. 17s. 11d.—this paper (produced) is a copy of the cash-book made by myself—he enters the payments in the cash-book—that shows a deficiency of 225l. 9s. 7d.—the entries for the week correspond with the entries on the remittance note—those that appear in the remittance note appear also in the cash-book, and others beyond, to the amount I have stated—the items that appear in the remittance note are selected from items in the cash-book—they are intermediate amounts—I have the remittance note here of the week ending 5th March—on that 244l. 11s. 4d. appears to have been received—he disbursed 1l. 10s. 2d. that week—that is what appears by the cash-book—he appears to have received 461l. 18s. 4d., amount remitted 244l. 11s. 4d., deficiency 215l. 16s. 10d.—on 27th March he remitted 276l. 5s. 3d.—he disbursed 116l. 6s. 5d., the two together being 392l. 11s. 8d.—by the cash-book he appears to have received 493l. 17s. 4d., deficiency 101l. 5s. 8d.—there is no balance carried forward on 1st March—the books are not balanced at all, they appear to be carried on in pencil all through the month, but no balance struck at the end of the month—it is the same with reference to the month of March—the balance should be struck at the last of the month, and the balance carried on to the first of the month—none of these deficiencies of which I have spoken appear afterwards in the books to the prosecutor's credit, they have not been accounted for at all.
Cross-examined. by MR. GIFFARD. Q. What time did you come to London? A. On the 25th June—I had been in London before officially to the house on business, but not for the accounts—I may have called several
times, but I have never been there officially to go through the accounts—I have been upon pleasure, and called at the warehouse—there is no hand-writing in this book except the prisoner's, unless it may be some of the pencil entries—the ledger clerk must post into this book—there are many items in here which the ledger clerk has not posted—the three sums I have mentioned were posted by the ledger clerk into the ledger—they would be posted to the credit of the different parties—I believe he posted all the sums mentioned in those three weeks—it was not the practice in the Birmingham house to send at stated intervals in the year a copy to each customer of the state in which his account stood—that was left to London—we have not done so from Wednesbury for seven or eight years—it was my duty to make out the accounts at Wednesbury—if the prisoner was to keep back John Smith's cheque for 50l. we should not know anything about it at Wednesbury—I believe there was no document of any sort or kind sent by us from Wednesbury to Mr. John Smith, by which he would see that he had not received credit for the 50l. cheque he had paid—there may have been an exceptional case if any inquiries were made—there was an account of money handed to Mr. Russell himself personally—that would be treated in the same way as if he had transmitted it—in the account that was just read, part of the money was handed to Mr. Russell—the letter states, "excepting the two first items, the others representing cheques and bills handed to Mr. Russell"—the money handed over to Mr. Russell is treated as remittance—there is no separate account of that—the prisoner rendered accounts to the Wednesbury house monthly—they were balanced quarterly, of course, in the ledgers—we have not had a monthly account rendered for three years—not since 1863—I have none of them here—I can't say how often Mr. Russell was in town—he did not take an active part in the business—the prisoner was at the London house two days after I came up—on the 25th June he was suspended—he was not told to go away—Mr. Baker, the solicitor, said in the prisoner's presence that he was suspended until the further examination of the books—that was on the Wednesday morning—I will swear it was not on the Monday—I remember stating to the prisoner that I was about to send out a circular to the different creditors—he said, "You had better consider before you do that, for if you do I will send out a circular stating the circumstances under which your circular goes"—he also added that it should cost Mr. Russell 10, 000l. more if he proceeded against him—it was said in Mr. Russell's presence that the prisoner had made improper use of Mr. Russell's money—what he said was that it was through some speculation which unfortunately had turned out wrong, but that had the transaction been successful he should have heard nothing—he did not say they were speculations of Mr. Russell's, I mean to swear that, most decidedly—Mr. Russell said he had no right to use his money to speculate, and Mr. Baker made the remark that he might just as well take his money and bet on the Derby—the prisoner said they were speculations—he left the inference that they were his own—I understood that they were his own speculations of course—there was no allusion as to what the speculations Were at that time—the prisoner told me the day previous—the prisoner said, in the course of conversation, when Mr. Russell was there, that he believed to a certain extent he had Mr. Russell's authority—his words were, "I consider that I had to a certain extent your authority for what I have done"—before that
I said to the prisoner I was very sorry to see it, but I had discovered a discrepancy of 3000l. and he said, "It was Sullivan's affair"—he said most unfortunately Sullivan's affair had turned out a failure—there were a great number of Sullivan's bills going through the accounts up to 1863—when the prisoner said, "I consider I had to a certain extent your authority," Mr. Russell said, "Show it, prove it"—he denied it—I won't say the exact words he used—the prisoner also said, "As regards Sullivan's matter, I have your letter where you give authority to the Alliance Bank to be responsible for a certain amount," and from the tenour of his remarks I concluded he referred to that as his authority—nothing was mentioned about Mr. Russell having told him to keep the matter secret from his manager—Mr. Russell was sitting beside the Alderman when the prisoner was committed—the prisoner reserved his defence, he said nothing—I believe at the close of the case, that gentleman (Mr. Wontner, junr.) said something to the effect that the prisoner had done what he had by Mr. Russell's authority—Mr. Russell is here to-day.
MR. METCALFE Q. Was the prosecution conducted by Messrs. Lewis and Lewis? A. Yes, it was left to them to do what was thought proper—Mr. Russell was at that time in a bad state of health, from which he has to a certain extent recovered—if an order for goods came to us through the London house we should send the invoice to the London house to be re-invoiced by them to the customer, but the goods we should send directly to the customer—the prisoner was left to conduct the London business as a separate business entirely—the greatest confidence was reposed in him, which continued up to a short time before I went to London—I said to him, "Mr. Haddon, I am very sorry to see from the cash-book, as far as I have gone, that you are 3000l. short"—he said, "Yes, I am very sorry, it is Sullivan's affair; Sullivan has had many promising things, and amongst many other promising things which he had they have most unfortunately all turned out failures"—copies of letters were produced at that time—we may have had promiscuous bills of Sullivan's since 1863—one of the letters produced was a letter proposing to guarantee the bank—this is it—(Read:—"James Russell and Sons, to Alliance Bank, Limited. Gentlemen,—We beg to say we will guarantee an amount not exceeding 500l. you may advance to Mr. W. C. Haddon on bills endorsed by him, presented at this bank to be discounted.")—I produced that—I was a party to that letter—the thing was canvassed over before it was done—it was done by letter, by Mr. Smith, the manager—after that guarantee a bill of Sullivan's might have come to us, a promiscuous bill, a bill bearing his endorsement—I cannot say whether Sullivan's acceptances came in—there was a little confusion in the name, there being the father and the son—one was J. S. and the other J. G.
JOHN JAMES RUSSELL . I am proprietor of this business at Wednesbury, and at Upper Ground Street, London—rather more than twelve years ago, I think, I placed the prisoner in the London branch of the business—he was to conduct the London business entirely, to receive money, supply the goods when they were ordered, keep the accounts, and send down remittances to me—I treated London as one single customer, debiting the warehouse with the goods, and crediting the money received from there, knowing very little indeed about the customers which the prisoner had—I had every confidence in the prisoner until May this year—he had been with me rather more than 15 years—it was his duty to send down remittances as he received them, sometimes once a week,
sometimes oftener, and to send monthly accounts—he did that for some, considerable time—about three or four years ago they ceased—I have applied to him for monthly accounts personally—the excuse he made was that as the warehouse was treated as a debtor, in some instances some of the goods were sold for more than the warehouse was charged, and on others there were drawbacks, and he had not made up the differences—if there was an excess it would belong to my firm—the prisoner had a salary of 180l. and a house and firing—I asked very frequently for the monthly account—he should have sent nearly the whole of the cash weekly—he might have kept a small amount of cash back for the purpose of any little account that might come in, the ordinary expenses of a business—I did not know of his having received 600l. during the week ending 25th February, and only sending 400l.; I did not in any way authorise that—I did not authorise him to keep back moneys, except in one instance some months ago; that was for him to keep a certain amount of what he collected between the time of my writing to him and going up, and it was paid to me when I went up—I knew that he had a banker's account, inasmuch as I guaranteed a bank for an amount for himself, but after transferring it from there I knew nothing more—I did not know that he paid my moneys into any banker's account—I never authorised him to do so—I gave a guarantee to a bank for discount for a person named Sullivan—his father had owed me a debt—I came up to London with the accountant—on the Saturday previous I had a conversation with the prisoner, which induced me to send for the accountant—I dismissed the prisoner—the accountant said the books were very far behind, and there was a considerable balance against the prisoner, and upon questioning him he gave some very evasive answers—he ended by saying that had things gone on right he should never have heard anything of this—I dismissed him at once—I told him he was suspended—he did not say what he had done with the money—he said if these speculations had gone on right he would have heard nothing of it—I had not authorised any speculations—there was only one exception, that was the Hanoverian—that had nothing to do with the moneys of the firm—I did not authorise in any way any application for speculative purposes of the moneys of the firm that the prisoner had, or for any other purpose, there was a special direction—I did not give any special direction about the application of my own individual money that I recollect—I bought some shares once, at the prisoner's request, in the Petroleum Company—I provided money of my own for an acceptance, bills met the acceptance, renewed bills took up the bills, eventually I took up the renewed bills out of my own funds—the prisoner did not, as far as my authority goes, ever apply a sixpence for those bills, or for any other purpose—the Petroleum matter was in September, 1865—Sullivan's bills had been sent down in 1863 by Haddon—it was for the purpose of providing discount to assist Sullivan that I gave that guarantee to the bank—Haddon had lent him some of my money, and in order to get out of that debt he said if I would guarantee the Alliance Bank for him he would work it out in that way, and that was done—I did not know at all of any of my moneys being paid into the Alliance Bank—up to May I believed Haddon was sending down to me all the moneys that he received.
Cross-examined. Q. I entreat you to reconsider that answer. Do you mean to say you were not aware of cheques and bills being applied to the liquidation of Sullivan's bills? A. Yes, I do—I was not aware of it at the time—it is not a fact that I ever directed the prisoner to apply them
in that way—it is a fact that I told him to keep back from the weekly statements the receipt of any money I so applied, in order that my manager, Smith, might not know it—that was in writing, not personally—I can't tax my memory as to the time.
COURT. Q. Do you mean money you applied in Sullivan's matters? A. No—moneys received on my own account, which he handed over to me on my arrival in town.
Mr. GIFFARD. Q. I thought the course of business was that all money handed over to you should go into the remittance? A. Yes, decidedly, but this was a special matter—it was simply because I wanted the money for my own private purpose—I did not wish my manager to know that at the time—I knew he must know it at some time—I told the prisoner I had been engaged in speculations in London with accommodation bills and various speculations—the Hanoverian Petroleum Company was one, and the Bank of New Zealand, nothing else but what is gone past—I had no interest in Sullivan's matter—that was an advance made by him unknown to me in the first instance—I believe it was a speculation in the leather trade, or something of that kind—I know it was—I don't know that the speculations with which the prisoner had to do had nothing to do with the leather trade—I know he bought and sold shares—I knew nothing about our firm supplying tubing for the speculation in question—that I swear—I was not cognisant of it.
Q. Did you never hear of Sullivan's steam-generating machine? A. I beg pardon, I am speaking of the present Sullivan, the successor—that was the father—that I did know about—that was some years ago—I should think in 1861 or 1862, perhaps—I have no account of what is due to me from Sullivan, nothing more than what the books show, and that I have not looked at—I never got payment of profits made in that concern—I never had a penny—this is my handwriting (Looking at a letter)—this has nothing to do with profit—this 50l., I expect, refers to a speculation that I was out of altogether, but that I can't recollect.
Q. Just read the letter? A. "Mr. W. C. Haddon. Dear sir, I wish you to take the accompanying papers and pay into the bank 50l. for me"—that was into my own bank—now I recollect what it was, it would be, I expect, Hankey's, for some shares—"first of all putting on a receipt stamp marked"—it was a banker's receipt for a deposit—"and also adding the date on the day of application. If you can't manage it in a day or two let me know, and I will send you a cheque. P. S. Don't forget Mr. Sullivan's 116l. bill, and that you owe me 75l. out of the bill"—I don't recollect receiving that as my share of the profit—whatever I have received from Sullivan was not as a partner—I have heard it insinuated that I was a partner with Sullivan—this was a personal arrangement, that on the condition of my giving the guarantee as a remuneration, one-half of the produce of the business of Sullivan should be handed over to me as a bonus for giving it—I can't say whether that sum was received upon the footing of that arrangement—I won't swear it was not, but I cannot say it was—I have a doubt that this came from Sullivan, certainly—I did not take a cheque of Sullivan's to the Middlesex Bank and get it cashed—I merely handed it over for them to do it, if I did send a cheque—I have not got a cash-book of these affairs, because I trusted to Haddon to keep everything—I can't say whether I received for the cheque a 50l. note, No. 89662—I won't swear I did not—I was not engaged in drawing or accepting or endorsing a large number of accommodation bills for
Sullivan in 1864 and 1865, certainly not—I was engaged in accommodation bills connected with the Hanoverian Petroleum, not Sullivan—I should think Sullivan's transaction began somewhere about 1861 and 1862—it has never been wound up—Sullivan became a bankrupt, and after that I knew nothing of it for some time—I did not know that my bills were being used to work Sullivan's business until after it was commenced—I knew it in 1862 and 1863—I know the account has not been balanced—I know Sullivan's is a different business now, but I did not know it was the same Sullivan—he was represented to me as a different Sullivan—Mr. Smith is here—this is his writing—you subpoenaed Mr. Smith, and me too—when I have been at the London house I have simply asked the prisoner for money, that is all—there was my brother-in-law in the country, whom I did not wish to know about these speculations—he was the manager too—I have written to the prisoner to write to me for sham excuses to bring me up to town that I might talk to him about these speculations that I was engaged in—he was not authorised to apply any money from the business, and was not to take cheques for any purpose, except on such an occasion as that special one—in one or two instances when I could not take up the accommodation bills I have made up the difference from the business—I have not complained to the prisoner that he has truly entered the amount, so that my manager found out I was speculating in London, nothing of the sort—this letter (produced) is in my handwriting (This letter was from the prosecutor to the prisoner, stating that he was very vexed indeed that he had referred to the bills or to the amounts in his letter to Mr. Smith, and stating that if he kept ang cheques or cash he was to debit him with the amount and let it go into the monthly statement)—with regard to that, it is very distinctly stated that I have given him permission to debit me with money—I told him to make the bills payable at Ground Street, and not at Birmingham—that was in order that they should be met there, in order to keep it from the manager, (take it that way if you like), and because awkward questions had been asked down at the bank there—I was asked by another house whether the prisoner had any authority to accept bills—I said he was authorised to conduct the whole business of the firm—I believe I have prosecuted him for forging the endorsement of a cheque received in London—that was previous to these transactions—this letter of 11th May, 1866, is in my writing. (This contained a direction to the prisoner to write to the prosecutor a very urgent letter requesting him to come up to town. The postscript was)—"Urge me to be sure not to be later than Monday night. I shall explain all when I see you"—the object of that was to discuss with the prisoner the speculations which I wanted to conceal from my manager.
At this period of the case Mr. Metcalfe, having consulted with the prosecutor, stated that, with the sanction of the Court, he should withdraw from the prosecution. NOT GUILTY .
There were eight other indictments against the prisoner for embezzlement, and one indictment for forgery, upon which no evidence was offered . NOT GUILTY .
MESSRS. SLEIGH and WILLIAMS conducted the Prosecution, and MR. RIBTON the Defence.
was in our employment—his duties were to see the invoices from the workmen, enter those invoices into a book expressly for the workmen, to bring the book to me, and I would then see that the entry corresponded with the invoices—I then attach my initials, "M. D.," and give an order on the petty cashier for the amount—the book is what is called the "Bought Ledger Book," for work only—it was the prisoner's duty to give the order to the workmen—I have always given the orders to the prisoner—the petty cashier paid the workmen—latterly the prisoner has paid them—I remember on 10th August the prisoner bringing in this invoice—the sum total now is 2l. 12s.—when he brought it to me it was 2l. 2s., and he put his initials on it—it is an account due to a glass-cutter in our employment, named Garland—the prisoner also brought to me this order for the payment of 2l. 12s.—it was for 2l. 2s. when he brought it to me—the "o" has been taken out and the "elve" been put in, and I before the 2—there is my mark in the ledger, which I invariably put—the figure 2 was in the shilling column when I put my mark—I find 12 now—the 1 is put over part of the D of my initial—the cashier would pay the money on the production of that order if it was signed by any member of the firm.
Cross-examined. Q. The workmen send in a bill, is that the commencement? A. The workmen give the bill into the prisoner's hands—this is the original one—it was his duty to copy the total into the ledger, and then come to me with the book and an order for the payment of the amount, which I sign and give to him—after he copies it into this book it is filed—I cannot tell you whether he files it at once or copies a number at the same time—they are brought to me on the Friday afternoon to sign—we have between 200 and 300 in our employment—nobody had access to this book—the prisoner has kept it locked up in his desk—it ought to be in the iron safe—we ought all to have access to it—when he received the order he would put it in his desk and lock it up—I look at perhaps eight or nine in the course of the day—I can tell you, from recollection, that when I looked at this book it was 2l. 2s., and not 2l. 12s., because the I here is put over the tail of my D—he ought to give this bill to the workman—I cannot tell you how long he has been in the habit of giving it to the cashier—I don't know that the cashier has asked him to do so—the question has been asked of the cashier by another member of the firm, not by myself—the cashier being of our own persuasion, two or three times a year, when I have been behind, I have asked him to come to my house for half an hour on the Sunday morning to check the books with me—sometimes bills of this sort have been produced on the Sunday—this very bill was not produced on the Sunday following—I have been very ill—I can't do the work as I did formerly, and we were behindhand—this bill was brought to me on a Sunday by the cashier—he had complete control over it—it is kept by him as a voucher till I pass it, and then it goes into the hands of the manager or sub-manager—that is sometimes a week, or a fortnight, or a month after—the cashier is in quite a different office to the prisoner—after the cashier paid the money this bill would go again into the care of the prisoner—it is his duty to see that they are filled up and then put into a drawer—the cashier would not ask to see the bill—he has nothing but my order for payment—the prisoner has a junior clerk with him—he is here—the prisoner has been with us about three years—he has done his duty like others—there was something like 50, 000l. or 60, 000l. in cheques, payable to order, and crossed, which he could not
touch, passing through his hands, and between 500l. and 1000l. a year of these orders—there was not about 200l. a week paid by the prisoner—that is a mistake entirely—his salary was at first 30s. a week—he came in as junior clerk in the export office, and I promised him 40s. after he had been there some time, and when I returned from my accident I advanced him again to 45s.—we had a fire a short time ago—the prisoner was not working all night for twenty-five nights after the fire—all the lads of the department worked two or three nights, but in our service no Christian is at our place from Friday night until Monday morning—the cashier would charge this order in his book—if he charged me with 1l. more than he ought it would not go into his own pocket unless he was feloniously inclined—he would find it out upon adding it up in the evening—the cashier has been with us some years—we have discharged one or two clerks lately, one for irregularity—Lazarus was his name—we have sent round a circular to our customers, warning them about the conduct of some people in our establishment—we discharged Lazarus because he was under an agreement with us, and during that time he was getting goods and supplying customers.
PHILIP CANTER . In August last I was petty cashier in the employment of Messrs. Defries—the prisoner presented and left with me this order—I paid the amount for which the order appeared to be, 2l. 12s.—I have not made any alteration in the order at all—I think I know the prisoner's handwriting—I don't know in whose handwriting this "elve" is—I have got my book to show that I paid him 2l. 12s.—I made this entry the following day from the order, which I had in my possession in the meantime—I balanced my cash the following day—it was all right.
Cross-examined. Q. Where do you leave the orders? A. I lock them up in my iron safe when I leave at night—they remain in my desk or drawer till then—I used to pay the workmen—it might be eighteen months or two years ago—for the last eighteen months I have paid the prisoner—the Sabbath used to come in earlier of a Friday, and he paid them for me, so that I should get away a little earlier—I got the orders before I gave him the money, and entered them in the book the next day—if it was on Friday night I should keep them till the Monday—the total of the column where the 2l. 12s. is 103l. 8s. 5d.—it has been altered, because there was an error—it might have been 177l. or 197l., I can't say which—it was a mistake of mine in the casting up—I corrected it when the manager, Mr. Berry, checked the book with me—I made this other error here and the alteration—nobody ever assists me in making these entries in the books—I get a cheque from Mr. Defries for the amount I want—I know the amount I want from the accounts—if I pay only part of what I get on the cheque I should hand over the difference—I do have another piece of paper, which is destroyed—it is a list, which I get from Mr. Lane, of the amount of money I require to pay, and the sum total—I destroy it because it is no good to me—I have seen Mr. Lane write very often—I am not particularly intimate with him.
MR. SLEIGH. Q. Is it the regular course of business to destroy that list which you have from the prisoner? A. Yes, and keep the originals, of which this is one.
JOHN THOMAS GARLAND . I am a glass-cutter, and work for Mr. Defries—the body of this blue paper is in my handwriting—I gave this paper to Mr. Ball—when I handed it to him it was not in the same state as it is now—a I has been added since—it was then 2l. 2s., and I received
that amount from the prisoner—I did not receive 2l. 12s. from him—when I received the 2l. 2s. I put the receipt stamp in this book; and signed it—this is my signature—when I signed it it was 2l. 2s. to the best of my recollection.
CHARLES BALL . I am one of the foremen in the chandelier department at Mr. Defries'—it was my duty to check the cutters' account as to price—I checked this account—I can't say how much it came to—I only checked it as to price—I don't add it up—I sign my name on the invoice if the price is correct, and then take it into the prisoner's office, and put it on the file, and I have nothing more to do with it—I was not in the same office as the prisoner—I have been working in Gravel Lane, ten minutes' walk from the business.
EMANUEL NORDON (not examined in chief). I am in the same office as the prisoner—there are no other clerks there—I am the only one—the invoices are sent in there—the petty cashier comes into that office, not to do anything—he would go in for anything he might want—these invoices are there, and the book, lying about the desk sometimes—I eventually take them away, and put them in a drawer in Mr. Defries' office—the petty cashier never has them—the book is in the office—he has nothing to do with that.
MR. SLEIGH. Q. When the prisoner is not actually using that book where does he keep it? A. Sometimes he used to keep it in his drawer, and sometimes locked up in his safe. NOT GUILTY .
MOSS DEFRIES . On 31st August the prisoner brought me this order (produced)—it is now for 1l. 14s. 4d.—it was for 14s. 4d. when he brought it to me—these two words "one pound" were not there when he brought it to me, nor was the "1l." there—he also brought me this ledger at the same time, which was also 14s. 4d.—I ticked it with a blue pencil—it is now 1l. 14s. 4d.—I am sure when they were brought to me that the order agreed with the ledger.
Cross-examined. by MR. RIBTON. Q. I suppose Levy sent in a bill, did he not? A. Yes—every workman sends in a bill—I believe Levy's bill can't be found—we have a copy of it, taken from the book—I believe Levy was asked to make out another bill—I am not aware that it was for the purposes of this prosecution—it was after we had found out this fraud, and after we had shown him a journal in which was entered the workmen's work—he took a copy of that, and then he brought us in the bill—I believe we told him we had lost the original—it was one of my brothers who spoke to him about it—he is here—this order was brought to me with nine or ten others—I say that the 1 in the pound column has been added—it was 14s. 4d. when I saw it and compared it—I don't say that from memory—I went to the prisoner's office on the Monday, and asked him to let me have all the cutters' bills that were paid on Friday, 31st August—I did not take away Levy's original bill amongst those—I could not find it—I mean to swear that—I could not ask him for it, he absconded—I have not seen him since—we have some of the bills here which I took from him—the others are locked up.
MR. WILLIAMS. Q. Are these things which are supplied by Levy, the cutter, entered in a book? A. Yes—this is the book—William Lane, who receives the goods, keeps this book, he makes the entries in it.
JOHN LEVY . I am a glass-cutter, and work for the prosecutors—in the week ending August 31st I did work for them amounting to 14l. 14s.—on 31st August I received 14s. 6d. from the prisoner—he had no coppers, and I had none myself, and I was to owe him 2d.—I signed this receipt in the ledger for 14s. 4d.—it is now for the sum of 1l. 14s. 4d.—the 1l. has been added since I signed it.
Cross-examined. Q. What time was it that you received this? A. At various times; sometimes between six and seven o'clock or seven and eight o'clock on the Friday night—this was for my week's work—we generally take our work in every Thursday, and get paid on the Friday, and the Friday's work goes into the following week—Mr. Coleman Defries spoke to me about this somewhere about the 8th or 9th of September, about a fortnight after I received this—I can't say to a day—he did not tell me my bill was only for 14s. 4d.—he did not show me the book—he asked me what the invoice was that I brought him for the last account on 31st August—without looking at any document I recollected the amount—I remembered that I had 14s. 6d. instead of 14s. 4d.—on 7th September I received nothing because our holidays came on at that time, and I did very little work—the bill after the 1l. 14s. 4d. was 1l. 0s. 2d.—that is my answer—I mean after the 14s. 4d.—I have received as large a sum as 4l. and 1l. and 2l. and 3l., various sums—Mr. Defries showed me a list of what I had supplied them with in that week, ending 31st August, because the invoice was destroyed or lost—I was able to tell him what I had received, but I could not tell what the work was.
MR. WILLIAMS. Q. Did you know the sum? A. Yes—I did not receive 1l. from Mr. Defries on that day at all.
WILLIAM LANE . I am warehouseman to the prosecutors—I entered the work done by Levy in this book (produced)—I see the name of Levy here at folio 49—the entry is "twelve knobs"—it does not show the amount here—at folio 51 there is Levy's name—the entry is "two nossles."
COURT. Q. Did you receive those goods? A. I can't say—there is a party who assists me.
Cross-examined. Q. Is that your handwriting? A. No—not this entry—I generally make the entries—I don't make mistakes sometimes that I am aware of—this is the "Cutters' in and out book"—it is all one—this is not copied from anything—it is copied into the ledger afterwards—I make the entries when the goods are brought in—it has never been found out that I have entered less to a man than I ought to have done—other cutters have not found that out that I am aware of—I can't say whether they look at the entry after I have made it, but they see the entry.
PHILIP CANTER . I remember this order being brought to me—it was in the same state as it is now, 1l. 14s. 4d.—I paid that sum to the prisoner—it was his duty to hand it over to the cutter—I did not alter it.
NOT GUILTY .
There was another charge against the prisoner, which was postponed until the next session.
The following prisoners PLEADED GUILTY:—
919. WILLIAM MOULD (21) , to stealing one watch, one chain, and 5l. in money of James Crichton, his master. The prisoner received a good character.— Confined Twelve Months . [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]
920. HENRY PERCY (45) , to two indictments for stealing one cigar case and four cigars of Isaac Belisha, from his person, and one pipe and one pipe-case of John Phillips, from his person.**— Five Years' Penal Servitude . [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]
FOURTH COURT.—Wednesday, October 24th, 1866.
Before Mr. Recorder.
921. JAMES PADDON (18), WILLIAM CRAWLEY (18), and HENRY THOMPSON (19) were indicted for stealing one case, 100 pieces of cloth, 100 pieces of flannel, and 200 pieces of stuff, value 15l., of Mary Ann Mackie, in her dwellinghouse.
PADDON PLEADED GUILTY .
MR. LILLEY conducted the Prosecution; MR. COLLINS defended Thompson, and MR. MONTAGU WILLIAMS appeared for the prisoner Paddon.
GEORGE WHITNEY (City Policeman 98). On 26th September, about twenty minutes to five, I was with Green in Wood Street—I saw the three prisoners in company—Paddon was carrying a bag over his shoulder—we followed them into Wood Street, and ultimately into Ironmonger Lane—they went down Ironmonger Lane, and Paddon handed the bag he was carrying to Thompson—Paddon then went into Mullen's hotel, kept by Mrs. Mackie—he came out and spoke to Crawley and Thompson—Crawley then went into the house with Paddon—they came out, Crawley leading the way—they went towards Gresham Street—Paddon was carrying this sample case (produced) on his back—Thompson followed a few yards behind—I and Green rushed across the road and attempted to secure the three prisoners—Paddon tried to throw the case on my head, but did not succeed—I secured Paddon—the other two ran away towards Cheapside—a cry of "Stop thief!" was raised, and Green followed and brought Crawley back—they were taken to the station and searched—6s. was found on one, and 8s. on the other—the case was found to contain samples—on 28th September, about two o'clock in the morning, I went in company with Green to a brothel in the Curtain Road, Shoreditch—in the back parlour we found Thompson in bed with a female—I took him into custody—I told him I was an officer, and should take him into custody for being concerned, with two others already in custody, in stealing a traveller's case from Mullen's hotel, Ironmonger Lane—he said he did not know anything about it—he was taken to the station and charged—the charge was read to him—he said he had nothing to say to it—I had followed Thompson and the other two prisoners on that occasion for about half an hour—I had seen Thompson before—I know him by sight—I found the case belonged to Mr. Moir.
Cross-examined. by MR. COLLINS. Q. How near were you to the three prisoners? A. At first nearer than I am now, in fact, I almost touched Crawley going down Friday Street—very few people were about at that time—Paddon had a black coat on, and one of those high deer-stalker hats—Crawley was dressed as he is now—he had a deer-stalker hat—Thompson had a high deer-stalker hat—it is a hat round at the top and made of felt—Thompson was not in custody at the first examination—I did not mention Thompson's name at the first examination, for I did not know his name—I said, another man—Green and I separated at times—he was a little in advance of me in Friday Street—I was standing in Gresham Street, at the corner of Ironmonger Lane—Mullen's hotel is about fifty yards up—Thompson stood about two yards off the hotel while the others were in, a little below it, further away from me—I cannot say whether his back was towards me or his face.
MR. LILLEY. Q. Although you did not know the name of Thompson
before, you knew him by sight before? A. Yes, perfectly—it was quite light at the time.
WILLIAM GREEN (City Detective Officer 280). I was in company with Whitney on the afternoon of 26th September—I saw the three prisoners in Friday Street, and watched them into Ironmonger Lane—I saw Paddon go into Mullen's hotel, return, and speak to the other two, and give Thompson the sack he was carrying—he went in again with Crawley—they returned, Paddon carrying this case on his shoulder—Thompson was walking up and down outside the door—Crawley came out first, Paddon following, carrying the case—Thompson was behind—at the corner of Ironmonger Lane, in Gresham Street, we endeavoured to stop the three prisoners—Crawley and Thompson got away—I pursued Crawley—he was stopped by a man in Church Passage—I brought him back—Thompson got away—on the morning of 28th I went with Whitney to a brothel in Bateman's Row, Shoreditch—we there found Thompson—we took him into custody—I have no doubt whatever that he was the man who was in company with the other prisoners on this occasion—I had seen him before and knew him.
Cross-examined. by MR. COLLINS. Q. How far were you from the three prisoners? A. I passed them twice in Friday Street—I was in plain clothes, as I am now—the hotel is I think about twenty yards from the corner of Gresham Street—it was not so much as fifty yards—I should think it rather more, or under twenty yards—it may be twenty-five—I was standing at the corner in Gresham Street—I don't know how they were dressed—Thompson wore a deer-stalker hat—neither of them wore high-crowned hats—to the best of my belief, the other two wore caps with peaks—I can hardly say what coat Paddon wore—I think it was a lightish over-coat—I think Thompson wore a shortish black coat.
MR. LILLEY. Q. Whatever Paddon and Crawley wore, were they both taken nearly on the spot? A. Yes, at the corner.
LEWIS MOIR . I am a commercial traveller in the employment of John Ponsford—this case is my property—it contains samples of black and fancy cloths, flannels, and vests—the value to me is about 15l.—I was staying at Mullen's hotel, in Ironmonger Lane, on the 26th September—that is kept by Mary Ann Mackie—I saw my case in the morning about half-past ten o'clock, when I came from Newcastle—it was deposited in the passage at the bottom of the stairs—I saw it again safe about half-past three o'clock in the afternoon.
Crawley's Statement before the Magistrate:—"I persuaded the others to go home all I could."
Thompson's Statement:—"I am guilty of stealing it—I met the prisoners and persuaded them not to do it."
CRAWLEY— GUILTY . THOMPSON— GUILTY .
They were further charged with having been before convicted of felony, on 7th November, 1864, at the Middlesex Sessions/—Crawley in the name of Arthur Russell, and Thompson in the name of William Cook, to which they PLEADED GUILTY.
PADDON.*— Confined Three Months .
CRAWLEY.**— Seven Years' Penal Servitude .
THOMPON.**— Confined Eighteen Months .
MESSRS. DALY and BESLEY conducted the Prosecution, MR. SLEIGH the Defence
FREDERICK EDWARD LAMB . I am an officer of the Court of Bankruptcy—I produce a copy of deeds from the Trustees' Office—I also produce two affidavits—one of them refers to the original deed—it is sworn on 5th of April before Robert Bolton—Mr. Bolton is a commissioner for administering oaths—the other affidavit refers to an account or list of creditors, and is sworn before James Johnstone, Esq.—the copy of the deed bears the seal of the Court of Bankruptcy—the original deed is delivered back to the solicitor or his clerk, somebody appointed by him, after complete registration—the original deed in this case appears to have been given to a person named Heath, in consequence of a letter signed by Mr. Bradley, who appears on the papers as the solicitor for the debtor—the letter was dated llth April—that was after complete registration—this deed is a certified copy of the deed of arrangement—it is not a petition—there is a method by which a bankruptcy may be changed into an arrangement—I think not by petition, but by a resolution of the creditors—the deed is filed, showing the request of the creditors—the register of that is a complete registration under order of the Court of Bankruptcy—it is the duty of the solicitor of the case to certify that it is a true copy.
JOHN HEATH . Q. Did you go to the office of the registrar of deeds in bankruptcy in order to get this deed on the 6th April for the purpose of getting it away? A. I really cannot say whether I went to feteh it—I signed my name at the office in Quality Court—I remember signing a book at the office in Quality Court—I really don't know whether I signed the book or not—I do not know whether I took anything there or whether I brought anything away—I said before the Magistrate, "If I signed the book I took the deed"—I have had the deed of arrangement in my possession—I handed it to Mr. Brashier—I don't know the date—I had before that taken it to different creditors.
JOHN DADE . I am clerk to Walker and Twyford—I served a copy of this notice on the prisoner yesterday—I had previously served a copy on his solicitor, Mr. Watson, on Thursday, 18th October—I left copies with them.
JAMES JOHNSTONE . I am a solicitor, of No. 55, Chancery Lane, and a commissioner to administer oaths in Chancery—on 6th April last I administered the oath to a person acknowledging this signature to be his—the signature is, "Edward Brashier"—I do not know whether that person is the prisoner—he acknowledged the name and handwriting to be his, and swore that the contents were true.
THOMAS ALFRED MANNERS . I am a clerk in Mr. Commissioner Holroyd's Court—I produce the proceedings in bankruptcy in reference to the case of Edward John Brashier—the petition was filed on 25th July, 1866, by the bankrupt himself—upon that petition he was adjudicated bankrupt—I have here all the proceedings and the schedule signed by him—I have also an examination transcribed from a shorthand writer's notes taken before the registrar—all the documents were sealed by the Court.
PHILIP NEWBURY ENGLAND . I live at No. 30, Polygon, Golden Square, and am an accountant and money-lender—I know the defendant—I have seen him write—this affidavit is in his handwriting—the signature to this schedule is his—I saw him sign his petition in the Bankruptcy Court.
for the defendant—about two years previously to this on several occasions I went to Mr. Johnstone's office with Mr. Brashier—I cannot speak positively, but I was under the impression that Mr. Heath went with me—it was the day the deed was filed—I was in the outer office—I saw Mr. Brashier go in, and Heath to the best of my belief—Mr. Brashier took the affidavit with him, and the account attached—I took the deed to the registrar's office—it was a deed of arrangement—this is my certificate: "I certify that I have examined this with the original, and that it is a true copy"—it was the original of this copy which I took to the registrar's office—I registered it—that was after I saw them go in—I could not swear that Mr. Brashier went with me to the registrar's office the second time.
JOHN HEATH (re-examined). I went to Quality Court with Mr. Brashier—I think it was the Registrar's Office that I went to at Quality Court—I did not go anywhere before I went to Quality Court—I went no-where else but to Quality Court—Mr. Bradley was with me—I first saw him at Quality Court—I went to Quality Court with Mr. Brashier because he was not able to see by himself—he went there to meet Mr. Bradley—I did not go anywhere else from there—I did not go to Mr. Johnstone's—I did not go to any attorney's office in Chancery Lane—when I left Quality Court I went nowhere else with Mr. Brashier—I went home if I went anywhere—I waited in the street till Mr. Brashier came to meet me—I cannot tell you where he went—I was in a room with him at Quality Court—I was at the further end of the room—I did not see what he did in the room—I did not see him do anything—I did not see him sign anything.
MR. BRADLEY (re-examined). I met Brashier at the Registrar's—I did not see him sign this affidavit—it was done before the commissioner, Mr. Bolton—I don't know that I saw him sign any of the documents.
JAMES JOHNSTONE (re-examined). I cannot say what sort of a person it was who made the affidavit—I happen to recollect the affidavit, because, it having been sworn before, I thought it rather singular—I have no idea whether it was an old man or a young man.
The Court, being of opinion that there was not sufficient evidence to prove that the prisoner was the person who swore to the affidavit, directed an acquittal. NOT GUILTY .
SMITH PLEADED GUILTY .**— Confined Twelve Months .
MR. COOPER conducted the Prosecution.
DAVID CONNELL . I live at No. 3, King's Court, Minories, and am a tailor—at ten o'clock on the morning of 3rd October I saw Mr. Millard's truck in the Minories, containing some boxes of tea—I saw Smith behind the truck—Roberts was by the side of the truck, on the pavement, with his coat over his shoulder—Smith took the box of tea, Roberts throwing his coat over it—Roberts took it from Smith, carried it across the Minories, and laid it down on the pavement—Smith took it down Whitechapel—I followed, and gave him in charge of the police—I lost sight of Roberts—I did not see Roberts again until the officer told me he had him in custody—I then went and saw him in custody at the Mansion House, at the bar—I identified him—I am quite sure he is the person.
FREDERICK WEBB (Policeman 106 H). I was on duty on 3rd October in Whitechapel—about half-past ten o'clock the last witness came to me, and in consequence of what he said I took Smith in custody—I did not see anything of Roberts at that time.
CHARLES JAMES CHILD (Policeman 193 H). I was on duty in Whitechapel on the morning of 3rd October—I saw the two prisoners—I was watching them from a little after nine—I was in plain clothes—I watched them for about three-quarters of an hour—I took Roberts into custody outside the Mansion House—when I had locked Smith up I went outside and found Roberts there in company with the girl Smith, whom he lived with—I took him into custody—he tried to get away—I told him the charge—I had seen him and Smith together in Butcher's Row, WhileChapel, and in Aldgate—I watched them for three-quarters of an hour—they were in company all that time—they took a quarter of mutton in Butcher's Row.
Roberts. I was not the man at all.
SAMUEL SALMON . I am errand boy to Mr. Charles Paul Millard—he is a tea-broker, No. 37, Crutched Friars, City—I was with Mr. Millard's truck on this morning in the Minories—it contained three caddies and one chest of tea—I and another boy were pulling it. (Tea chest produced.)—when I got to the corner of Jury Street I missed this tea chest—I was told that some one had taken it—I did not find it got lighter as I went along—it contained 20lbs. or 28lbs. of tea.
Roberts's Defence. I have nothing at all to do with it—the man had orders to take me into custody—I know nothing at all about it.
ROBERTS— GUILTY .**— Confined Twelve Months .
MR. COOPER conducted the Prosecution.
EMMA WALKER . I live at 31, White Place, Drury Lane, and am an unfortunate girl—at a quarter to two on Friday morning, 5th October, I was walking along Gray's Inn Lane to King's Cross—I was crossing from one side of the road to the other, just by Verulam Buildings—when I got on to the pavement the prisoner came up to me, and asked me where I was going—I told him I was going home—he said, "I'll go with you"—I said, "You will not"—when I was crossing the road he said, "I want you"—I said, "I don't want you, I would rather have your room than your company"—he then struck me a violent blow on the chest, which caused me to fall down—when I was on the ground he knelt upon me and took away my handkerchief and my purse—my jacket pocket was cut very much and torn—my purse was in my hand—that was taken away, it contained one sovereign, one half-sovereign, a half-crown and sixpences—I screamed out, but nobody came—afterwards the police-sergeant came, and I told him what had happened—the prisoner ran away down Verulam Street—there was a gaslight opposite—I could see his features plainly—I described him to the sergeant—I am positive he is the man—I saw him the next day at the "Clock House," Leather Lane—the policeman was with me—the prisoner was at the bar—I could not identify him then, as he was leaning against the bar, and I could not get a full view of his face—I waited till he and his three companions came out and were going up Leather Lane—I went up to him and told him he was wanted—I gave him into custody—I recognised
him as the person who had attacked me on the Friday morning—he struck me and held me down, and hurt me very much.
THOMAS JONES (Policeman 165 S). I received a description of prisoner from the sergeant—on the Sunday night I was going with the last witness along Leather Lane, and she went into the Clock House—the prisoner was there—his back was towards her—other people were with him—he and his friends came out and walked up Leather Lane—the last witness got in front of him and turned him round, and said, "You are the man who robbed me"—he said, "You have got this up."
Prisoner. Q. When the woman gave me in charge for robbing her didn't I ask what it was for? A. You were told what it was for—you asked first what it was for.
Prisoner's Defence. Then I said, "This is a got-up thing for me," and enough to make me say so, I think—I am innocent—I can't plead guilty to what I never done. GUILTY .
He was further charged with having been convicted of felony at the Clerkenwell Police-court, on 14th March, 1862, to which he PLEADED GUILTY.**— Confined Eighteen Months
MR. COOPER conducted the Prosecution.
JOHN FINCH . I live at 10, Conduit Street, Long Acre, and am a coster-monger—between six and seven o'clock on 28th September I was returning to my lodgings—just as I entered Conduit Street I heard a great disturbance, and when I got to No. 10 I saw the prisoner creating a great disturbance, and insulting every one who passed through the court—as I passed in the doorway she said to me, "Here's another b—gun"—I took no notice and passed into the kitchen—I sat down for a quarter of an hour—as I was coming out along the passage the prisoner was still standing at the door—she made use of some bad coarse language—I passed by out of the door—the prisoner then came up and struck me—I shoved her away—she came up again and stabbed me in the head—I bled much—I did not see what it was done with until the knife was produced after this happened—a witness found it—I had a severe wound in my head—the doctor saw it—I had never seen the prisoner before—she was drunk, but she knew what she was about.
Prisoner. Q. Did you not strike me, knocking me down, and put your hand in my pocket and take out 1s. 6d.? A. No—I shoved her away—she fell down—I am crippled in my left hand—I am paralysed all one side—I did not see the knife in her hand before I shoved her—I have no daughter—I did not hear a woman say, "Don't knock her about."
JAMES GROVE (Policeman 83 F). I took the prisoner into custody in Long Acre—she was drunk and very violent—the prosecutor's head was bleeding very much—I sent him to the hospital—the witness Dolland gave me this knife (produced)—there was blood on the handle.
GEORGE AIREY . I am one of the house surgeons at the Charing Cross Hospital—the prosecutor was brought there—I found an incised wound on his head a little better than an inch long—it went down to the bone—it
was a fresh wound—it was bleeding—he had lost a great deal of blood—a knife of this sort would do it—I dressed the wound several times—it was not dangerous—he went on very well—he was very weak some time from the loss of blood.
The prisoner in her defence made a long statement, to the effect that she had lived with a man named Mortimer, who had ill-treated her, and that the prosecutor was "one of his set, got to annoy her," because she would not live with him now. GUILTY of unlawfully wounding.**— Confined Twelve Months .
The following prisoner PLEADED GUILTY:—
927. JOHN WILSON** (38) , to stealing four pounds weight of printed papers of Thomas Parks and another, after a previous conviction.— Confined Eighteen Months . [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]
928. AUGUSTE DUEL** (26) , to stealing one guard chain, two pairs of earrings, and one necklace, of George Giert, in his dwellinghouse; also to stealing one portmonnaie, one rug, and divers articles, of Francis Zambrzycki.— Confined Twelve Months . [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]
OLD COURT.—Thursday, October 25th, 1866.
Before Mr. Justice Mellor.
MR. SOLICITOR-GENERAL, with MR. PATTESON, conducted the Prosecution, and MR. RIBTON the Defence.
JAMES WILLIAM CRABB . I am chief officer of the East Central District office of the General Post Office—on Friday, the 14th September, the China mail arrived—a letter arriving by that mail for Chelsea would be forwarded to the Brompton sorting office for delivery that evening.
WILLIAM SMEE . I am a constable attached to the General Post Office—I produce a bill of exchange—it is partly burnt—in consequence of information I went to 37, St. James's Street, Lisson Grove, where I found the witness Newenham—I took him to the General Post Office, searched him, and found this in his coat pocket.
Cross-examined. Q. Had you known Newenham before? A. I had seen him and heard of him—I had not known him personally—the first time I saw him was in the City, a fortnight or three weeks ago—at that time I had no information in reference to him—I had known him—I used to see him come backwards and forwards to where the linendrapers meet opposite our office—I did not take him into custody—I brought him down to the office—I did not charge him with anything—I compelled him to come; if he had declined I should have made him—I took him into the solicitor's office, he was there searched, and this bill found in his coat pocket—he was asked to account for it.
CHARLES NEWENHAM . I am a draper, of 37, St. James's Street, Lisson Grove—I know the prisoner—I saw this bill of exchange in his possession—he asked me if I knew what the value of it was—I said, no I did not, but I would see, and I put it in my pocket, and did not think any more of it till I met him some time afterwards, and then I told him I did not think it was of any value—one part of it is burnt—the prisoner did that in the
closet in a public-house in South Audley Street—I had it in my pocket about a week or ten days, perhaps a little longer—I did not take any trouble with it at all, I never even asked the value of it—I also received from the prisoner a cheque for 25l—that was torn up—I really do not know whether it was him or me tore it up—I never took any trouble with that—he gave it me, and I had it in my pocket some little time along with the other, and I gave it up, but whether he or I tore it I do not know—I fancy it was torn in my presence; I am almost certain it must have been—it was drawn on Smith and Elder, of Pall Mall.
Cross-examined. Q. What are you? A. A draper by trade—I have been on for myself about two or three months, travelling round—I travel to every part of London pretty nearly—I have never been dismissed from any place; I swear that—I have been in a great many situations—I was with Mr. Watts, of Oxford Street, last—I lived with him twice—the last time I was only there a week—I left about two months ago—since then I have been doing business for myself—he allowed me patterns of the things he had in his shop to travel with—before that I was with Mr. Horne eighteen months—I left him because trade was slack—I was the highest salaried man he had—I have travelled with his patterns as well—I did not know Smee the officer till I saw him—I have seen Sale—I can't say that I know him, we very rarely have many words together—I have been in his company once or twice at the "Royal Hospital," and at Parkinson's public-house—I have drunk with him once, I cannot remember more than once that he paid for—I have seen him in public-houses, but not to drink with him—I have not known him more than three months, or so long—this bill was given to me, and I kept it in my pocket—I said I would make inquiries about it, but I did not, I took no trouble at all about it—I kept it to give it to the prisoner again when I saw him—I knew no one among my acquaintances who knew anything about these things, and I gave it back to the prisoner—he threw it down, or gave it to me to throw down—I did not burn it—I had occasion to go down to the closet some time after, and I saw it was not burnt, and I picked it up and put it in my pocket, and there it was found; I had no idea I had got it—there is a large gas flame in the closet, and the prisoner put it in and burnt it like that—it was not alight when I went into the closet, I did not go there till twenty minutes after I should think, it was there lying on the seat half in and half out, not on the ground, partly burnt, it was not burning at the time.
MR. SOLICITOR-GENERAL. Q. Did you first see this in the prisoner's possession? A. Yes, when it was found on me I gave information where I got it—at the times when I have been in company with Sale at public-houses the prisoner has been there—on one occasion I saw a cheque or part of one—I don't know whether Sale had it or not—that was at the "Royal Hospital" tavern—I have not seen letters produced that I knew contained anything—I never saw any letters pass from Sale to the prisoner.
—BIDDLE. I live at 33, Oakley Square, Chelsea; it was formerly called Cranfield Villas—Robert Swinhoe is my grandson—he is consul at Amoy, in China—he is in the habit of remitting me bills and cheques, drawn on Smith and Elder generally—the signature to this bill is his writing—the body of the bill is some clerk's—I sometimes have bills like that—this was never delivered to me, nor a cheque for 25l. drawn upon Smith and Elder—I was expecting a remittance from him.
Cross-examined. Q. Do you recognise your grandson's handwriting? A. I do, I am very familiar with it.
JOHN SALE . I was formerly in the employment of the Poet Office—I should have been so two years next January—I was employed at the Brompton office—I first became acquainted with the prisoner about eight or nine months ago—I first saw him at the "Royal Hospital" tavern—he asked me to drink—I was then an auxiliary letter carrier—I did drink with him—he paid for it—I saw him from time to time after that—I saw him about three times in that week—the third time I saw him he asked me to walk through the Queen's Road with him; I did so—during the walk he said he wished he was in the Post Office, he would soon make his fortune—he knew I was a letter carrier, I was in uniform—he asked did I ever get anything—I said no, I never did anything of that sort—up to that time I had never taken or secreted any letter belonging to the Post Office—he said if I ever could get anything he could always get rid of it, that he knew one of the cleverest men in the world to get rid of things—he said nothing more then—he said he would see me again next day—he did so—I met him about twelve o'clock in the Queen's Road as I was on my duty—he said, "Have you got anything?"—I said, "No"—he said, "Will you have anything to drink?"—I had some drink at his expense at Parkinson's, in the Queen's Road—he said he would see me again at seven o'clock—that was about the time I was on my rounds again—I saw him again at seven o'clock and gave him a letter, it was a post letter that I had to deliver—I opened it in his presence, it contained some postage stamps—the prisoner took them from my hand, and said that he would see me again by-and-bye—I saw him again about half-past nine—I was on my rounds—he met me in the street—he gave me some money for the stamps I had given him—I can't remember how much he gave me—after that he used to meet me almost every day—I gave him a good many letters at different times—I saw them opened—some of them contained valuable articles—I remember some letters that came by the China mail in September—there was one addressed to Mrs. Biddle, No. 8, Cranfield Villas, Oakley Square, Chelsea—I received that letter to deliver in the course of my duty—I saw the prisoner that day at Parkinson's public-house, and gave that letter to him—I opened it in his presence—it contained a cheque for 25l. on Smith and Elder, and a bill of exchange on the Board of Trade for 5l.—this is the bill (produced)—the prisoner said he would take them and see me again—I gave the bill and cheque to him—I saw him the next day, and he said they were no good, he had burnt them—he did not give me any money—he has given me money at other times, I should think about 2l. 10s. altogether.
Cross-examined. Q. You were taken into custody, I suppose? A. Yes, I have been at home ever since—I was kept in custody while they went and searched my room, about two hours—I don't know whether the police have kept a watch upon me ever since I was examined before the magistrate—I did not meet a good many friends at these public-houses—there was one letter carrier named Skinner that I used to meet and drink with, and I knew two or three more by sight—I was not in the habit of drinking with them—I generally drank with Skinner—I know Smee the officer now, since the 6th of this month; that was the first I saw of him—I know Newenham—I have seen him in the prisoner's company—I did not know him before I saw him with the prisoner—I have not been on intimate terms with him—I have drunk with him once or twice at different places, that is all—I believe he is a draper—I have not been to his house, and he has never been to mine.
MR. SOLICITOR-GENERAL. Q. When you were taken into custody were you examined? A. Yes, I mentioned at the office how it was I had taken the letter, and through whom, as I have mentioned to-day.
THOMAS JEFFERY . I am a travelling inspector belonging to the General Post Office—I have seen the prisoner frequently in company with Sale about the Queen's Road, Chelsea—I have seen them go into public-houses together.
Cross-examined. Q. I suppose you have seen Sale in the company of other persons? A. I have.
After Mr. Ribton's address for the defence, the Solicitor-General, on rising to reply, Mr. Ribton submitted that he had no right to do so, and was prepared to support his objection by a case. Mr. Justice Mellor was clearly of opinion that the right existed; he had so ruled over and over again after objection taken. Mr. Ribton suggested that the ruling was probably confined to cases in which the Attorney-General appeared in person. GUILTY .
MR. SOLICITOR-GENERAL, with MESSRS. METCALFE and PATTESON, conducted the Prosecution, and MR. RIBTON the Defence.
THOMAS JEFFERY . I am travelling inspector of the missing-letter branch in the General Post Office—from information I received, on Friday, 5th October, I made up a letter directed to Mrs. Tucker, Smith Street, Chelsea, and enclosed in it a cheque for 22l. 10s., drawn on the National Bank, Oxford Street branch, payable to Mrs. Mary Tucker or bearer—it was a genuine check, drawn on purpose for this letter—I have an account with that bank—I also enclosed a directed envelope with four penny postage stamps affixed to it—I securely fastened the letter, and handed it to Smee, one of the constables, the same evening to post—I knew that Smith Street was in Sale's delivery—I went to Chelsea next morning, and saw Sale in the Queen's Road, about ten o'clock—I was standing near the post-office—I saw him go across the road and shake hands with the prisoner—they went across the road together to Parkinson's public-house, and remained there about five minutes—Sale came out first, and a few minutes afterwards the prisoner came out—Sale went towards the Brompton post-office—I went there too—on my way there I got some information about the letter—I saw Sale again on his delivery about half-past eleven, in the Queen's Road, and saw him go into Chelsea Hospital, which is the last place in his delivery—when he came out from there it was just about twelve, and he went across the road into the "Royal Hospital" tavern—a few minutes afterwards I passed the door of the tavern, and saw Sale and the prisoner at the bar of the tavern—I got several police officers, went in, and had them both searched—I was probably ten or
fifteen minutes getting the officers—I found nothing of the letter or cheque.
Cross-examined. Q. When was the first time you saw Sale? A. In the morning, at ten o'clock—he was searched at just past noon, between noon and one o'clock—I first saw him with the prisoner at ten o'clock in the morning in the Queen's Road—I did not at that moment know where the letter was—I believe Sale had it—it was after that when I again saw the prisoner and Sale in the "Royal Hospital" tavern—in the interval Sale had gone to the Brompton post-office—the second time I saw them they were together three-quarters of an hour at least—they were not under my observation all that time—I passed the door, and saw them both there, but it was nearly twenty minutes before that I had seen Sale go in there—they never left the place.
MR. SOLICITOR-GENERAL. Q. When was it you received the information that led you to send for the police officers? A. About a quarter to one—I sent for them almost directly.
WILLIAM JOSEPH WILLIAMS . I am superintendent of letter carriers at the Brompton post-office—I was on duty on 6th October, at seven in the morning, when the South-Western mail arrived—Coker, the overseer, who is on duty at the same office, gave me a letter addressed to Mrs. Tucker, of Smith Street, Chelsea—that was in Sale's walk—I sorted it to his delivery—it was a letter posted in the ordinary way.
CHARLES NEWENHAM . I am a draper—on Saturday, 6th October, I was in Parkinson's public-house—I saw the prisoner there—Sale came in afterwards—he did not stop many minutes—they had one pint of ale—Sale then went away, and I went to the "Royal Hospital"—I was there an hour and a half—the prisoner came in there, and Sale came in afterwards—I saw in the prisoner's possession part of a cheque for 22l. 10s.—I did not see the whole of it—I mean I saw it partially—I was with him scarcely two minutes afterwards—I also saw an envelope directed to Mrs. Tucker, Smith Street, Chelsea—they were in the prisoner's possession when last I saw them.
Cross-examined. Q. Did you see the prisoner searched afterwards? A. No—I never had the cheque in my possession—I don't know what became of it.
JOHN SALE . I was an auxiliary letter carrier at the Brompton post-office—I was on duty on the morning of 6th October—I went out on my delivery a little before eight—Smith Street is in my walk—I received a letter for Mrs. Tucker, of Smith Street, Chelsea—I took that out with me—there was nobody of that name in the street—it was my duty to return it—I gave it to the prisoner in the "Royal Hospital" tavern, about a quarter-past twelve, after I had finished my second delivery—I opened the letter—there was a cheque in it—I don't know the amount of it—the prisoner took it from my hand—I gave him the letter and the envelope—he did not say how much it was for, there was somebody coming through the yard at the time, and he said he would see me by and bye—I gave it him in the yard, in the urinal—I saw Newenham there that morning—the prisoner had the letter and the cheque when Newenham was there—that was in the urinal—I did not see Newenham there—I gave the letter to the prisoner—I afterwards went into the house—I went into the urinal to open the letter—I don't know what became of the letter or cheque—I did not see it after the prisoner had it—shortly after I was taken in custody and searched.
Cross-examined. Q. How soon after? A. I think about one o'clock—I had not the cheque—I was very much astonished that it was not found—I don't know what became of it.
MR. METCALFE. Q. Were there any other persons in the public-house? A. Yes, a great many—the prisoner's wife was there, and a letter carrier named Skinner—there were other persons there whom the prisoner knewbesides his wife.
GUILTY .— Ten Years' Penal Servitude .
There was another indictment against the prisoner, for burglary.
931. BARTHOLOMEW CLARAMONT (35) was indicted for feloniously, and without lawful excuse, having in his possession two metal dies and other things, upon which was engraved parts of an undertaking of a foreign state.
MESSRS. GIFFARD, Q. C., and POLAND conducted the Prosecution, and MESSRS. DALY and STRAIGHT the Defence.
The prisoner being a foreigner, the evidence was interpreted to him.
The evidence in this case consisted of that of Ralph Neal, John William Scowen, George Joseph Evans, John William Waters, Thomas Ambrose Potter, Caroline West, and Nicaso Emidgo Juralde, and was to the same effect as in the case of Rodriguez—(see page 586).
GUILTY .— Five Years' Penal Servitude .
MR. STRAIGHT conducted the Prosecution.
JAMES AUGUSTUS HAYDON . I am resident medical officer at Charing Cross Hospital—on Sunday evening, 9th September, about half-past seven o'clock, a child was brought there by the prisoner—she did not give its name then, she did afterwards, she said it was Alfred Charles Holmes—she said it was her own child—it was dead—it was about fifteen months old—I told her that it was dead, and she began to cry, and said, "Oh! no, it is not dead"—I examined the child, it was very thin, and its clothes were very dirty and ragged—it was covered with vermin and dirt—its weight was eleven pounds—that is not the usual weight of a child fifteen months old—it ought to be from fifteen to twenty pounds at least—its height was the average height of a child of that age—I made a post-mortem examination—its stomach was quite empty and contracted—it contained no food or trace of food—the body was very free from blood, and there were no signs of fat—there was slight disease of the lungs, but, apart from thinness, there was no disease of any organ—I attributed the child's death to want of sufficient nourishment—there were no signs of severe diarrhoea—if it had had slight diarrhoea there would not be any signs.
JOHN WILBY . I live at No. 59, Chandos Street, and keep the "One Tun"—on Sunday afternoon, 9th September, about two o'clock, the prisoner came there—she had a child on her knee—she called for half a pint of beer—after she had drunk the beer she asked me if I would make a pennyworth of port wine—I told her it was unusual, but, as I knew her for some time, I said if the wine was for the baby I would give her a glass of wine, which I did—she dipped one of her fingers in it, and moistened the child's mouth—I observed the appearance of the child—it was very
sickly, and appeared to me that it would not live many hours—I told her so—I did not notice whether the child drank the wine, I was busy with other customers at the time—the other customers were begging and praying of the mother to take the child to the hospital immediately, to have medical advice—she said that she could not go to the poor house, that when she left it two or three months ago she had been supplied with bed and bedding, and she had lost them—I have known the prisoner very nearly three years—she has sometimes been to my house twice a day, sometimes once, and sometimes not at all—she was an occasional passer-by—I think she had been at my house the day previous to this Sunday—she came for drink—she generally called for half a pint—sometimes she would come once, twice, and three times a day, and sometimes she would not come for two or three days—I have never seen her incapable or the worse for liquor—she used to bring her children with her—she did not give them any of the beer to my knowledge, she might.
Prisoner. Q. Do you remember my coming for some warm water for the baby? A. I do, frequently—she has come to my house in the morning with a small portion of bread and a teacup, and asked me for some warm water to warm it with—I do not know what she did within the last few weeks—the reason why she visited my house was to sell a box of matches, which I have frequently purchased of her.
MARY BEAUCLERK . I am a widow, and live at the "Horse and Groom" public-house, Maiden Lane, Covent Garden—on Sunday, 9th September, the prisoner came to my house about a quarter to two o'clock—she had a baby with her—she called for half a pint of fourpenny ale—I noticed the child was ill, and asked her what was the matter with it—she said it was consumptive—I asked her if she had any advice for it, and she said she took it to the Charing Cross Hospital twice a week, and that they were giving it cod liver oil—she attempted to give the child some beer, and I said, "Don't give it some beer, I will give it some wine," and I gave it some—I told the prisoner if she came to my house I would give it a little port wine or arrowroot, or beef tea, seeing the child was so very debilitated—she came again in the afternoon, about ten minutes past five o'clock—she had half a pint of ale—she told me the child had been sleeping ever since, and I said it would sleep a long time before long, the child was very ill—she came in again about eight o'clock with a boy, and told me the child was dead—she was crying—I begged of her to go the union in the morning, because she did not seem very well clad—it was a damp sort of day—she said that her children sold fuzees in the street, and I said that was a very dreadful way of getting her living, and she had better go to the union—she did not make any remark.
MR. HAYDON (re-examined.) I should think the prisoner did not bring the child to the Charing Cross Hospital, from what the porter said—I should not see her if she did—she said she brought it to see one of the visiting physicians—there was no disease of the mesenteric glands—the glands were hardly visible—a child may die from partial neglect—in such a condition it would require more nourishing food.
EMMA ALLEN . I am a widow and live in Shelton Court, Bedfordbury—the prisoner lived on the same floor as me previous to 9th August—she first came to me in April from St. Martin's workhouse—she is a widow—she had four children, three now—she lived in this one room with her four children—I found some nuisance from the children—sometimes she would go out and there were little bits of bread over the floor, and the two little
ones used to be crawling about on their soil, and when she came home I used to give her some hard words—she said she had been hard at work, and what could she do, she could not afford to pay a nurse—she was very kind to her children when I saw her—I noticed the deceased child daily—I saw that it was gradually losing flesh—I have known her several times go and get spring water to bathe the child's eyes with—they all had bad eyes—she was very attentive to it—I never had the opportunity of seeing what sort of food she eat herself—I never took the liberty of going into her room—she did needlework and was a very good dressmaker—I do not know whether that sort of work is badly paid—she had not work always, she was very often without it—she has a son of fourteen—I cannot say whether he was at work at the time; I was out nursing.
JOHN BOWMAN . I am relieving officer of St. Martin's workhouse—I have known the prisoner close on two years—that is since April, 1865—her husband died on 14th April, 1865—she was admitted into the workhouse in that month—she was close to her confinement at the time she was admitted—the child was born after her husband's death—she was confined in theworkhouse, and remained there close on twelve months, down to 19th April, 1866—she applied to be allowed half a crown a week and a set of bedding, which was granted—they gave her two sets of bedding instead of one on account of her four children, because they did not consider one would be sufficient for her—the reason for her not receiving the half-crown a week any longer was that the board did not think proper to give it her, and said they would receive her into the workhouse, and she was informed of it by the chairman—I made the order—the allowance was discontinued at that time—she did not receive any more half-crowns after the 20th August—she did not avail herself of the offer to come in—I did not see her for some time after that—I saw her a week before the child died, in front of the railway station, Charing Cross—she had got some matches in her hand, but I did not see her offer any to any one—the blankets that were supplied to the prisoner were gone from the room that she occupied—I went to the room—I have never seen any of the bedclothes or bedding—the value of the bedding was from 50s. to 3l., flock bed and bolsters—no allowance was paid to her after she refused to come into the workhouse—her own statement to me was that she did needlework—her allowance had ceased for three or four weeks at the time I saw her at the Charing Cross Station—it was on 20th August that I went to her house—I saw her standing in Bedfordbury nursing the child—the last opportunity I had of noticing the child's features was on 20th August—it looked delicate, but did not appear to be ill—she was nursing it as a mother would do—I should think it had been delicate since its birth.
ANN SIMMONDS . I keep a general shop in Bedfordbury, and am a single woman—the prisoner is my sister—I went to the workhouse shortly after the prisoner was confined of her last child—when she came out in April I noticed the child—it appeared a healthy child to me—I think I have taken the child into my arms once—I think the prisoner once made a complaint to me about the child's health, but I could not be positive—she suckled the child—some time after this I told the prisoner to keep away from my house—she was given to drink—she frequently used to get intoxicated—I have seen her the worse for liquour—she lived very close to me—she got her living by needlework—I have very often given her needlework—I should think within six weeks or two months from the time, but I could not be positive—I paid her different sums—I could not say about what sum—I
have paid her for one week perhaps half a crown—I know that she worked for others as well as me—I could not tell you what she could earn, I have not the slightest notion—she did not mention to me what she earned.
HENRY EDWARD ADAMS . I am the hall-porter at the Charing Cross Hospital—I know the prisoner by sight—she has applied three times as an out-door patient for medical advice for the deceased—the first occasion was on 4th August last—she had some medicine given to her, but I do not know what it was—I only remember seeing her once have cod liver oil—she came on the 9th and on the 17th—after that I did not see her any more.
NOT GUILTY .
NEW COURT.—Thursday, October 25th, 1866.
Before Mr. Baron Pigott.
MR. D. D. KEANE, Q. C., with MESSRS. POLAND and F. H. LEWIS, conducted the Prosecution, and MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE, Mr. GIFFARD, Q. C., and MR. SLEIGH the Defence
JAMES MICHAEL . I am a clerk in the Inland Revenue department, Somerset House—I produce a bond of the Leeds Banking Company—the date of it is 26th November, 1859—I also produce a Gazette, the date of which is 27th August, 1844—that shows the amount of notes that the Leeds Banking Company are entitled to issue irrespective of stamps: that amount is 23, 076l.—that is the total amount of notes only, not of notes and bills; there is no limit to bills—I also produce the last half-yearly return made at our office—it is dated 4th August, 1864—it contains an account of notes for the half-year ending with the week Saturday, 25th June, I believe—it was returned to our office—the half-yearly return contains the amount of notes and bills in circulation, week by week, from the beginning of January—I also produce the weekly returns corresponding with this half-yearly return—it is the weekly returns of the amount of notes in circulation this is only a copy of the original—these are sent up week by week to the stamp office, the Inland Revenue office—they relate to notes only—there is no limitation for bills, and I have no separate return for bills—I have got the other half-yearly returns from 1860 to the time the bank stopped payment, the 10th September, 1864, is the latest account—I have got the half-yearly returns for the same period as well.
Cross-examined. by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. This prosecution is not conducted by the Inland Revenue, is it? A. I believe not—I have no reason to believe that it is—I do not think that it is, I am not aware of it.
COURT to JAMES MICHAEL. Q. Did you bring the original affidavit? A. No, a copy—I stated that the original was in court—here it is (produced). WILLIAM SYKES WARD (continued). This is the original—the affidavit of the 4th July, 1864, is at the back of the half-yearly return—that is an affidavit purporting to be signed by the prisoner—I administered the oath to him, and this is his signature—he was sworn in the usual and regular
way—each of these weekly returns for that half-year appears to be signed by the prisoner—I know his signature—it is his writing—these others are also signed by him.
Cross-examined. by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Are you a Commissioner to administer oaths? A. I am—I am a solicitor by business—I was also connected with this bank—I was a director of it—a paid director—I think I got about 175l. per annum—that was in addition to my share of the profits.
Q. Just give me an idea of this prosperous bank down to 1864, what profits did you divide last year? what did you get out of it yourself for the year 1863, ending 1864? A. I cannot recollect the amount of dividend, without reference to figures—I cannot answer without making a calculation, but possibly about 200l.—about twenty per cent. per share on the original capital on 15l., that is including bonuses—I was paid for attending as private Director of the bank—I did various matters—I was undoubtedly paid independently of a Director of the bank to investigate the accounts and see that the matters were rightly returned—it is the manager's duty to examine the weekly accounts—I did not take on myself to perform that duty.
Q. Do you mean to say that you did not perform that duty? These banking companies are attracting public attention; we want to know what Directors do. Did you as a paid Director never look at the weekly returns? A. I never looked at the weekly returns—I never verified them—I may have casually looked at them—I did not take care to inform myself of the correctness of the half-yearly returns.
Q. Then what did you do? A. I had a great variety of duties; I cannot enumerate the whole of them—I did not ascertain the state of the bank, the state of the issues, or the state of the assets—I took my money when it was offered to me—I do not mean to represent to the jury that I entirely neglected the duty that I undertook—there were a good many duties in advising the manager of the bank.
Q. How could you advise if you did not make yourself acquainted with the state of the bank? A. I could not inform myself of everything—Mr. Wilson was a paid director, equally efficient with myself—his duties were the same as mine—he and I did not meet and have any conversation in relation to the issues of the bank—there were five other directors—we had board meetings once a month, and occasionally—I was nearly always present, and the others were generally present—all the books were not laid before us—I am not aware of any book being asked for and not produced by the manager—it was a rule of the bank that the general Directors should not look into the books at all—that was an original rule—the private Directors had to look into the books—we actually had a rule excluding the general directors from looking into the affairs of the bank, and we two gentlemen are the only persons who did it, and were paid for doing it—the bank went to ruin on the 19th September, 1864, and since that time it has been in the hands of the liquidators—I do not know whether 13, 000l. has been spent on the liquidators.
Q. Was there a complaint made against the defendant about the mode in which he managed the affairs of the bank long after this affidavit; do you know that an action was commenced against the prisoner? A. I believe it was brought in my name, but beyond that I know little about it—in addition to being a paid director, I was a paid plaintiff—I know nothing more than that—the action was compromised, I have heard by the prisoner
paying somewhat beyond 6000l—I only know from hearsay that he settled that action, and that this action was commenced long after all these matters were known—Mr. Turquand is in Court—we were carrying on a very large speculative business, discounts at an enormous amount, and rediscounts with our own name on the paper—I believe that was the source of the mischief—I knew of the nature of the business to some extent—I also knew that the bank was holding mining shares to a considerable representative amount belonging to a person named Osborne—I took a good deal of trouble to ascertain whether those shares were good—I did not entertain a good opinion of them to any great extent, it was very doubtful—bonuses were granted while this business was going on, but no bonuses were affected by the value of those shares—they were of an inconsiderable amount, compared to the entire transactions of the bank.
Q. What do you mean by saying he was sworn in the usual and regular manner? Do not you know perfectly well that the directors ought to have made this return, and to have made the affidavit?
COURT. They are authorised to do it.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. How is it done? was it part of your duty as a paid director? A. No, it was not—I have a memorandum of my appointment as Commissioner, if you will allow me to refer to it (doing so)—I see that it does not assign a district—I believe I had a regular jurisdiction—I was commissioned by the Lord Chancellor—I have not got my commission—it is filed I presume.
Q. Have you the least notion notion what you are commissioner for? A. If you had asked me as to the Queen's Bench, Common Pleas, or Exchequer, I could have answered you, because there a commission is delivered which definitely points out the district, but the Chancery commission does not.
Q. Have you the least notion what you are commissioner for? A. To administer oaths in England, no, I believe it would be for the West Riding of Yorkshire—I do not know whether it includes all England—I have administered a great many oaths beyond the bank parlour—this oath was administered most probably in the bank parlour at Leeds—I will swear it was at Leeds, because I have signed it at Leeds.
Q. No, you have not. Look at it. You have told me your reason for knowing that it was sworn at Leeds is that it is so written, where is it so written? A. I am much surprised that the form issued by the stamp office is defective—I have put the jurat to the form, which is printed—Leeds is in Yorkshire—I do not find Leeds on this paper—I was mistaken in saying that it was at Leeds because I had put it on this piece of paper—I can recollect that it was sworn Leeds—my recollection is that it was at the bank parlour, but I will not swear whether it was there or at my office—I do not know.
Q. Whether you are a commissioner of Leeds, you have no notion? A. Yes, I have—I have no doubt this was sworn in the bank parlour, but I do not wish to swear it.
Q. I suppose there was no very great solemnity about it, a lot of papers are brought in, and you say, "I say, Mr. Greenland, just swear this?" A. Probably it would be the reverse, and Mr. Greenland would say, "Swear me to this affidavit"—Mr. Michael produced the returns, but Mr. Greenland himself produced them in the bank parlour—I swore him on the Testament—I am quite sure of that—I kept a Testament in the bank parlour, and it was amongst the books—I am quite sure of that if it was sworn there.
MR. KEANE. Q. I presume you have a Testament at your office? A. Yes. MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Who did Mr. Greenland succeed? A. Mr. John Smith—Mr. John Smith did not succeed a person named Redfern—John Smith was the first manager—he became partner in one of the principal Yorkshire Banks, and on that the prisoner was appointed in his place—I do not know of my own knowledge that the returns were made in precisely the same way in Mr. Smith's time—I know nothing about it—the business was very large.
Q. And Mr. Greenland had to see the whole of the customers; you never saw a customer? A. Yes, I did, but Mr. Greenland saw the great majority of them—he made all the money arrangements of the bank I understand, and there were a number of clerks kept who would make different entries in the books—there were about ten or twelve clerks—I do not recollect the number.
Q. Was it not your duty to verify the books, and was it not his duty to see the customers? A. It was not my duty, I verified the accuracy of the books periodically—I mean every half-year.
COURT. Q. Then your answer must be altered; it was your duty to verify the books? A. Some of them, not the whole.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. If it should turn out that there are any over issues, do you know that? A. Certainly not—I might have known it by going into laborious calculations—I cannot tell you whether I might have known it by going into the books or not—I never tried.
COURT. Q. Do you mean that the accounts were so kept that they could not be unravelled? A. Certainly—they were very voluminous indeed.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. How many hours did you spend there every day about lunch time? A. I do not know that I have ever lunched at the bank—there was no chief clerk by that precise name—there was a rule that the paid directors should be out of business—I am an attorney, but a profession is not a business—I consider that an attorney is not a commercial business.
Q. You do not consider an attorney in business, the interests of clients are not so necessary to be attended to? A. I could not have the oversight of those who might be regularly in commercial business—I never considered I violated the rule—I consider an attorney is in a profession, but not a business in that sense—the defendant became manager about twenty years ago—he is now more than seventy, I believe.
MR. KEANE. Q. Were there other persons in the service of the company besides the defendant? A. Twelve clerks, more or less—as far as I know, the defendant had the control of them all—he is not a director or a shareholder—he received a salary from the banking company, which, I think, was 3000l. a year—I think that included his bonuses—he had nothing to pay out of that, no clerk—I was there when he entered the service of the company—I was not connected with the bank then—it would be a mere guess if I were to tell you with what salary he began, but it is within my recollection when his salary was less than 3000l. a year—it was increased several times—he had the custody of the books, and as far as I know he examined them.
COURT. Q. Was he cashier? A. No, and he was never called accountant.
MR. KEANE. Q. Had he the control and management of the cash? A. No—the person who had the actual cash had to take his orders and instructions from the defendant—the notes were issued by Mr. Greenland, and
were usually countersigned by one of the other clerks—there were three cashiers—the prisoner directed the issue of notes and nobody else—the accounts that were submitted to the directors from time to time were submitted by the prisoner in the usual way—he did so when he chose, but always at each half-year. (The witness here handed in his appointment as commissioner.)
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. It all turns upon the question whether the case is one which, in the words of the statute, is "not otherwise expressly provided for." This is an indictment for perjury, which cannot be supported at Common Law, nor is there any cause pending; therefore, to constitute perjury, it must be made so by the words of an Act of Parliament, and the question is whether the perjury is created by this section. The affidavit is totally illegal from beginning to end, because it is the duty of the bankers to make the affidavit together with the defendant. The question has been raised whether the prisoner is a qualified person for that purpose; but, without going into that at present, the question now is, what is the jurisdiction given by this section to adminster an oath? has it been given? and how are these words to be interpreted? and, also, if there is to be a verification on oath, what is to be the verification, and who is to administer the oath? The 9 Geo. IV., c. 23,s. 7, says that any Justice of the peace is empowered to administer it. My learned friend's contention is that that Act of Parliament (55 Geo. III., c. 184), in which the words are introduced, "not otherwise expressly provided for," relieves him from the responsibility of taking this oath before a Justice of the peace. I contend that there is a distinct provision for the way in which the oath is to be administered.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Then I will call the attention of the Court to the other point. At the time the Act passed there was no such person as the manager of a bank in the sense in which it is now understood. He is a new. officer, performing duties of a different kind, resulting from the formation of joint-stock banks. The 9 Geo. IV., c. 23,s. 7, requires the bankers or directors to make the affidavit, and they are to make it to the best of the knowledge and belief of such person or persons, and of his or their cashier, accountant, or chief clerk. Therefore, unless the Commissioners choose to interfere, the banker would produce either of those three parties to join in the affidavit. In that affirmation the only person who acts is the manager. In this case the only person who makes the affidavit is the manager, and he does not declare himself to be either cashier, account, or chief clerk. Altogether the transaction is utterly informal; the Directors have not been sworn to the affidavit, and the manager is not the person intended. He is in the place of the proprietors or owners of a private bank; he is, in fact, what bankers were before joint-stock banks existed.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. In conjunction with the partners. The legislature meant to have the master and the servant, and not a person who was
neither one nor the other. The master and servant must join, and the servant must come within one of the three descriptions given, or there would be no jurisdiction.
MR. BARON PIGOTT . If this person had been required by the Commissioner to make the affidavit, and he made it falsely, I cannot think it would be less perjury from the fact that somebody else ought to have sworn also. As to the first point, I overrule it; as to the second, that the prisoner is neither an accountant, cashier, nor chief clerk, that is doubtful; as to the last, the question of jurisdiction, I will hear Counsel upon it.
MR. GIFFARD (on the same side). If there had been such an office as manager at the time the Act passed I could understand the defendant making the affidavit. Before the passing of the Act there was no jurisdiction, but the Act created a forum before which the oath is to be taken.
MR. GIFFARD. The 52nd section does not say that such and such documents shall be verified before such persons, but it creates a forum for certain specific purposes. It does not say, "All these things shall be verified before certain Commissioners;" but it says that they shall have power to administer the oath. The power to administer the oath is coextensive with the obligation. It requires that it shall be verified before them, there is no general power given.
MR. GIFFARD. Yes, before one of the Commissioners. Those words are expressly intended to contemplate the case of future Acts of Parliament, which do provide a forum, and speak of the words, "In cases not otherwise expressly provided for."
MR. BARON PIGOTT . I cannot read it as you do. I think "expressly provided for" means both exclusive and inclusive. When it says that an oath is to be taken I do not think it expressly provides for the person before whom it is to be sworn, but it does say that you may go before a Justice.
MR. GIFFARD. What I submit is, that the 52nd section created for the first time the power to take the oath.
MR. BARON PIGOTT . I do not think there is a forum created by the Act of Geo. IV., but there is one permitted, there is not one created before which you are bound to go. My leaning is against you have made me waver, and I shall not decide it.
MR. SLEIGH. Surely the words "not otherwise expressly provided for" mean "not now provided for", and have no reference to anything else.
MR. SLEIGH. The 9 Geo. IV. proceeds to say that competent authority shall be a Justice of the Peace, although we are well aware that in an Act of Parliament passed before, other persons are commissioned to administer the oath.
MR. KEANE. Your Lordship has anticipated what I was going to say: a manager at that time was not known.
MR. KEANE. The practice for some years has been to swear the affidavit
before Mr. Ward (the witness). Is it necessary to do more than to present the affidavit and act upon it?
MR. POLAND. These returns are made with a particular object, which is to let the Stamp Office know the amount of duty to be paid. They accept this form year after year and accept these figures as correct, and receive payment upon their footing. The statute makes it necessary that the returns should be sent to the Stamp Office.
MR. POLAND. It is not necessary there should be a requirement in writing.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. It says, "sworn before me this/—day of/—Justice of the Peace for the County of—." That is the requirement issued by the Stamp Office, and my friends are relying on it.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. This was struck out at the bank. MR. BARON PIGOTT. Because it was not done before a Justice of the Peace. I am not disposed to decide the matter myself, but as you are anxious to have it decided now, I will take an opportunity of consulting with my learned brother. (After the adjournment the learned judge said, "My brother Lush agrees with me in the view I have taken, and if you choose to have the point reserved it can be reserved.")
MR. KEANE. Q. You do not recollect whether it was in your own office or in the bank parlour that you administered the oath? A. I do not recollect, and after making one mistake I do not wish to make another—I am satisfied that I administered the oath in Leeds.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. I say that this gentleman has not shown that he had any authority to administer the oath in Leeds. Witness. I have never had occasion to consider the point beyond the county of York, but I was always at Leeds.
MR. KEANE. Q. Have you always acted as Commissioner at Leeds? A. Yes.
MR. MICHAEL here produced the half-yearly returns of the bank since 1860.
GEORGE BROWN . I am now secretary to a commercial firm in Leeds, Holdsworth & Co.—I was formerly junior clerk in the Leeds Bank—I afterwards had the discounting of the bills—I took my orders and instructions from Mr. Greenland, and if any question arose I consulted him—there was a weekly trial balance-book, also a weekly statement of cash, and a weekly statement of the affairs of the bank—it was the practice to put them before Mr. Greenland on Monday—entries were made by three cashiers in the weekly statement of cash-book, Mr. Kirkby, Mr. Hunt, and the third was Mr. Servant—I know the book—this is it (produced)—the signature of Greenland to this book is the prisoner's writing.
Q. Is that at the bottom of each page throughout? A. The 25th June is signed by Mr. Greenland, but there are only two pages earlier than that.
COURT. Q. Does he sign it every Monday? A. No—three times in this book it is not signed by Mr. Greenland—it is signed by Mr. Ward on one occasion, that is on 11th June, and on 6th August, 1864, it is not signed by any one, nor is it signed on 13th or 20th August—the three
pages which have no signatures whatever are after the 25th of June. (MR. POLAND here stated that the book commenced on 4th June, 1864.)
MR. KEANE. Q. Just take this book in your hand (another). Look at the first page, and tell me the date? A. 19th March, 1859—the last date is 28th May, 1864.
COURT. Q. Is that a weekly statement of cash? A. Yes, the former book.
MR. KEANE. Q. Are the persons who make entries in it the cashiers? A. Kirkley is the first, and Servant—I find Greenland's signature here on nearly every page from May, 1859, to June, 1864.
COURT. Q. Who signs when he does not? A. Mr. Ward and Mr. Greenland both signed in conjunction—I am familiar with these books, and have seen these entries many times.
MR. KEANE. Look at the word "notes," and tell me the meaning of it? A. It means the notes of the Leeds Banking Company, and any notes not Bank of England notes which were in hand at that date—this book (labelled weekly balance of cash) is the weekly statement of the affairs of the bank, it was laid before Mr. Greenland every Tuesday—I have seen him with it—it is not signed—the weekly trial balance and the weekly statement of the affairs of the bank are the same thing—there is also one of cash—"notes in circulation" means notes signed, both in circulation and in the till—the notes in use on 25th June, 1864, were 47, 400l.—that is in Mr. Clarkson's writing, but it was laid before the prisoner.
Q. Just tell me from this book (the weekly balance of cash book) the number of notes in hand on 25th June? A. It would be more convenient if I gave them in three sums as the items appear—Mr. Kirkby's return is 2535l., Mr. Hunt's 3335l., and Mr. Servant's 2370l., making 8240l. (MR. POLAND here stated that that made the notes in circulation were 39, 160l., and that the half-yearly return made for notes and bills was 157, 577l. 14s. 7d., and that the weekly return, signed by the prisoner, for the same week was 26, 160l. as the amount actually out on the Saturday, that deducting the 26, 160l. from 157, 577l. 14s. 7d. left 131, 417l. 14s. 7d. as the amount of bills, and that the over issue was 13,000l. under the proper return for that week.) The 5l. note account is in the general ledger, and was kept by Mr. Clarkson.
Cross-examined. by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Now it is, as far as I gather, from that book that you gather the weekly amount? A. This is the cash in hand each Saturday—I get the issues by taking the notes in use as appearing in the general ledger, and deduct the notes in hand, which I get from the cash balance book.
Q. The result, as far as you have put it, is that there is a larger issue than there ought to be? A. There appears from these figures to be an over issue—it is from these two books that that conclusion is arrived at.
Q. Do you find that the paid director, Mr. William Sax Ward, signs every one of those as well as Mr. Greenland? A. They are not all signed by Mr. Ward, but most of them are—he signs them as having found them correct—he attaches his signature to the cash balances—the cash balance is obtained by the notes, gold, silver, and sundries being counted by Mr. Greenland and Mr. Ward—they would count it on Monday morning and attach their signatures to each sheet.
Q. And that is one of the foundations for the weekly returns? A. For this purpose it is made use of—it is the only thing that is made use of for these returns—Mr. Greenland had a variety of matters to attend to, and
was continually engaged—the minute-book was kept by him recording what took place at the Board—I do not think any book from which the balance-sheet was made up was kept by Mr. Greenland.
MR. KEANE. Q. Who prepared the balance-sheet? A. Mr. Kirkby—Mr. Greenland prepared a balance-sheet of profit and loss, but Mr. Kirkby entered it in a book—Mr. Greenland drew the draft, and Mr. Kirkby afterwards inserted it in the book—this certificate of the cash to which the signature of Mr. Ward is, is undoubtedly true—I find Mr. Ward's signature to other books of the bank, the balance-book, and the journals—I do not mean the weekly balances, but the annual balance-book—Mr. Green-land signed the notes.
JOHN KIRKBY . I have been in the service of the Leeds Banking Company since 1835—I was twenty-eight years a cashier—I was fifteen months junior clerk, and then went to be cashier—in 1859 Mr. Redfern, one of the cashiers, died, and I took his place—I made a discovery in 1859 with regard to the issue of notes, in consequence of which I spoke to Mr. Green-land, who was then the manager of the bank—I told him that I had not notes sufficient to make the return correctly.
COURT. Q. What do you mean by notes? A. Our own notes, our own issue.
MR. POLAND. Q. What do you mean by that? A. I had not notes sufficient to make a proper weekly return on the average of four weeks.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. What did you tell him? I told Mr. Greenland that I had not sufficient notes to make the returns, he said, "You must do it as it has been done; take from the Bank of England notes, and put it to our own notes, and make the return in that way."
MR. POLAND. Q. What more took place? A. I did as he told me—I added the Bank of England notes to our own notes in making the return, reducing the Bank of England notes, and making our own notes more—that would have the effect of making a false statement as regards the issue, by taking the extra number of notes.
COURT. Q. You did not want the Inland Revenue to believe you had issued a larger number of notes than you ought? A. No, but a smaller number—I wished to make the return under the mark—if I had made a true return it would have been above the mark—I was to add the notes of the two cashiers to our notes as if we had our own notes in hand—I added Bank of England notes to the notes in hand, thereby apparently reducing the notes in circulation by that amount.
MR. POLAND. Q. You did that from time to time? A. I did—I prepared the half-yearly and weekly returns which had to be made to the Stamp Office with reference to the notes: it emanated from me—those weekly returns were signed by the prisoner and sent up to the Stamp Office week by week.
COURT. Q. Did you know that they were untruly returned. A. I did, I would not swear to every one, but as a bulk they were.
MR. POLAND. Q. Was that done week after week till the bank stopped? A. Yes, from 1859 to 1864—in making those returns I always arrived at it in the same way, by adding something to the notes in hand—it was always done by a false addition to the notes in hand—during the time I have been in the bank I have been under the prisoner's orders, except four years, when I was under Mr. Smith—the returns were not the same then, the Act of 1844 had not come into operation—since I have been under the prisoner I have had to obey his orders implicitly—I took my orders from
him—I have before me the weekly statement of cash-balances for the week ending 25th June—I find my signature to that week, and find that the notes in hand, which I certify to as being correct, are 2535l.—that is a true statement of notes in hand as far as I am concerned—all the other weeks in that half-year are correct, to which I have certified as far as my cash is concerned; the notes in hand—you may take it that all the others to which my signature is attached are correct—this book was laid before Mr. Green-land every Monday when he was at home—he might have been absent a few times.
Cross-examined. by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. How long do you say you were under Mr. Smith? A. I think four years and a half from. July 1835—I am now in a bank in Leeds, the Exchange and Discount Bank.
Q. If I understand your evidence, it is that you were committing for some years a deliberate fraud? A. I did not feel myself responsible for that fraud—I knew it was not correct—it was wrong—you may call it a fraud, but I was not responsible for it.
Q. Do you mean to say that you considered it your duty to commit fraud in obedience to a superior officer? I dare say the bank you are in will like to know. A. They know all about it—I admit that I was committing a deliberate fraud for years, but I do not consider myself responsible; but if my superior officer was to tell me to do it again I would not do it, because I have had trouble about it, and 10, 000 to 1 I should not be asked to do it—I could not object to it; I could not quarrel with my bread and butter—rather than quarrel with my bread and butter, I admit this.
Q. Why did not you tell one of the managing directors that this gentleman put you up to commit a fraud? A. There was no appeal—Mr. Smith was my first employer—there were directors, but they never interfered with the bank business at all, not with me personally—they had to examine my accounts—they never asked for any book—I knew, as far as regards the notes, that a false account in my writing was laid before them, and I knew that from week to week I was practically deceiving my employers, as far as that goes.
Q. And now when the bank breaks you charge the prisoner with being the person who told you to it; having committed it for years, you throw it upon him? A. It would be much easier for me to have got through the work in the proper way than to do as I have done—I believe nobody was present when he told me, but it is seven years ago.
Q. When did you betray the man whom you had been acting as an accomplice with? A. Immediately the bank stopped there was a meeting at my house—I live at the bank—I will not swear whether I then said that I had been making all these false returns, or whether it was found out by Turquand's people, because I am not quite sure—there were 40,000l. reissues, and I think Mr. Charles Butler found it out—I, of course, then owned to it—he found out that we had not notes in the bank anything like what the issue was—he knew what we had a right to issue.
COURT. Q. What did he find in the books that was false? A. He would know what notes we had in hand by the books, and he knew what notes were issued—when I was told to take from the Bank of England notes and add to our own I made false entries in one book—if Somerset House wanted to look at my books they would have confirmed the returns.
Q. Then, if you had the false entries of notes in your books, what was
to prevent anybody abstracting any notes from your book and putting Bank of England notes instead? A. it was merely in figures, not in cash—though I could make one false result, I could not make another in actual cash by taking away part of our own notes, and filling up with Bank of England notes—it was only in one book—the "notes in circulation" here is all false—the only way to show what our circulation was would be to take the addition of these three.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Suppose by some possibility there was some rogue in the bank, could not he have got hold of some of the cash? A. No, because every other book is correct, but this book is not correct.
COURT. Q. Which is the book you made the false entries in? A. This book—it is called the circulation account—it is not all my writing—this is one of my false entries (pointing it out)—this is a false sheet as far as notes are concerned—this, "Particulars of cash in hand ending 14th December, 1861, notes 14, 595l.," means our notes in our own hands—it is not 14, 595l. in circulation, but in hand—this entry of 19th November means the same—the whole of this entry is false—I can scarcely tell how it could be corrected, or how an accountant could find out how much of this is false—if 1000l. worth of our own notes actually in the till had been abstracted I could tell it, because this book is of no use in the actual cash transactions of the bank, it is only for the Inland Revenue—the only other book that I kept is our cash-book—that will not show what cash we had on 18th November, 1861, but the earlier book will—this is the true book, and this is the false book, and by comparing one with the other you see the difference—I had a similar book before me when I made the entry—when I saw that I had only in my till 3000l. in notes, and that if I returned that I should be above the issue I added an imaginary figure to make it up 11, 000l., so as to make the issue below the proper sum.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. What do you call this? A. The circulation book—it was kept in the safe—it was not among the books. produced to the directors at their board meetings, but I have nothing to do with that—I was not present at the board meetings; I was never called in—the safe was open to every clerk—I kept the key at night for five years—Mr. Greenland had a duplicate key—no living persons made entries in this book but myself, but Mr. Redfern did, and false ones—there are no entries, I believe, by Hurst—I have not told Hurst to make entries in this book or to make false entries anywhere—I will swear that—I never told Hurst to make entries which I knew to be false—I was aware that the returns made from my false book had to be verified on oath—I knew that once every half-year any one who was a party to this would commit perjury if he knew it.
MR. KEANE. Q. You never went before the directors at all? A. Never, except the half-year when I took the books before them to audit—this book never went before them, but they were entitled, to see it—this book does not affect the accounts of the bank at all—I had one key of the safe and Mr. Greenland had one—the safe was open in the day for any one in the office to take out the books—Mr. Greenland was present at the meeting of the committee after the bank stopped, and Mr. Butler said to him, "Now, Mr. Greenland, we have been asking Mr. Kirkby about the issue of notes; will you tell us what you know about it?"—I referred to Mr. Greenland, and said that I had asked him how I was to do it, and repeated what I have to-day—he said that he did not remember my
speaking to him about it; but, the question being very much pressed, he said, "Well, I do not remember, but I believe what Mr. Kirkby says will be truth"—I believe that is word for word—I know a gentleman named Wales, and another named Biggs—they were both present—the balance-sheet of the affairs of the bank was not prepared with the slightest reference to the book, which I pointed out before.
COURT. Q. Was there a yearly balance-sheet made? A. Half-yearly—that was a true balance-sheet of profit and loss, not having the slightest reference to this circulation book.
BENJAMIN HURST . I was a cashier at the Leeds Bank—I had been so eighteen years before the stoppage—I acted under the manager's directions, Mr. Greenland—I made out a list of bills in circulation in reference to the half-yearly returns—it is in one of the books I have seen in court—this is the book (produced)—it is in my writing—it clearly shows the state of the bills in circulation from 23rd March, 1863, up to the stoppage of the bank—I know that, because I abstracted the figures from the draft-book—I made it from another book—all I say is that what I made was a true copy.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. In whose handwriting is the draft-book? A. Various parties, who draw the bills.
MR. LEWIS. Q. Was the draft-book open to the prisoner? A. Yes—it is not signed by him.
MR. KEANE. Q. By whose directions did you copy it from the draft-book? A. It was in the course of business, through the manager's directions orignally no doubt, it was part of my business.
MR. LEWIS. Q. Did you make up the half-yearly return before it was placed before Mr. Greenland? A. Yes—I took the number of the notes from a book in Mr. Tattersall's writing—I see here, on 23rd June, 1864, a gross result of 157,000l.—I arrived at that figure from my own statement of the bills of exchange in circulation—I made it up from that item, and from an item which you find kept by Tattersall—this book which I have before me divides the notes from the bills.
COURT. Q. That is not a return, is it? A. It is a copy of returns which were made to Somerset House—thin book makes the division.
MR. KEANE. Q. How is that book headed? A. "An account of unstamped notes and bills of exchange, under the 44th of George IV., chapter 3."
MR. LEWIS. Q. When you made out the return what did you do with it? A. Placed it in the hands of Mr. Greenland—I placed the return and this book together.
COURT. Q. The half-yearly return? A. Yes, and also the book of bills—I am now speaking from the "Account of unstamped promissory notes and bills of exchange ascertained in conformity with the provisions of the Stamp Act"—this is a book showing results.
MR. LEWIS. Q. When did you receive that book from Mr. Greenland, how soon after you handed in the return? A. Sometimes in five or ten minutes, sometimes the next day—I have been in the habit of placing all the half-yearly returns before him—I was cashier, and was in the habit of making a weekly statement of my notes—the amount of notes in my hands on 25th June, 1864, was 3335l.—Mr. Greenland has signed that in reference to its accuracy, and I have signed it also—this book commenced 4th June, 1864.
MR. KEANE. Q. Is it your practice to sign it? A. It does not amount to a signature, our names are put opposite our respective cash.
MR. LEWIS. Q. Did you return a correct amount for the whole period? A Yes.
Cross-examined. by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Have you made any entries by the direction of Kirkby that you recollect? A. Never, do you mean false entries—I never made any false or true entries by his direction to my knowledge—I did not receive instructions from him I never made any entries in any book by Kirkby's direction—I have taken so long to answer, because I did not understand—Kirkby has not asked me to make entries—he might bring me a book and say, "Will you post up your cash?" but I cannot say that he did or did not—I was never present when the affidavit was sworn—I produced certain half-yearly returns myself—I handed them to Mr. Greenland—he invariably asked me whether the entries in the books were correct, and took his information from what I said—I was not present when he swore the returns.
MR. KEANE. Q. When you took the returns to him did you take anything else to him, did you take that book at the same time? A. Yes, and he invariably asked if it had been examined, and I said, "Yes"—I then went to my ordinary business, leaving him the return, and the book—I went back to my own department—he sometimes took the return to be sworn within five or ten minutes, and sometimes the next day—sometimes Mr. Ward might be in the private room, before whom he swore the return, and sometimes he might not, and that was the reason of the occasional delay—whether he examined them before or after I do not know.
COURT. Q. You took these from a note-book in the writing of Tatter-sall? A. Yes, I have seen that book in Court, but I do not see it now—I got this, "Notes 26, 160l.," on the 26th June, from the books of the bank, and the amount of the bills from the book you are quoting from—that book is made up from the weekly note return—the note return is sent to Government weekly—these two books were truly kept as far as I know.
MR. KEANE. Q. And the one with regard to notes is identical with the return made to Government? A. I believe so.
JOSEPH SERVANT . I was a cashier in the bank—I do not see the return of cash which I had on the 25th June, 1864, in this book—my signature is in the margin of the other book—it contains the account of cash in my custody—this statement is quite true—it shows the notes on that date to be 2327l.
PETER TATTERSALL . The note circulation book was given to the last witness for the purpose of making out the return—this is it (produced)—I kept it—I got the materials from Mr. Kirkby's daily cash balance book now before me.
COURT. Q. This book of Tattersall's comes from the untrue book; that was self-evident long ago. You took it from the book kept by whom? A. By Mr. Kirkby—I did not take it from the weekly balance book—if Mr. Kirkby called it the circulation book, that is an error—it is the book without covers—some part of that book is false, but I cannot say all of it.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. How do you know it? A. I have had to call Mr. Kirkby's attention to the excessive averages, that made me know it.
MR. KEANE. Q. What is the first column? A. Notes on hand—I only know the quantity of notes on hand by looking at these books—this book shows the quantity of notes we were allowed to have the average of—I made out the weekly returns signed by Mr. Greenland from that book
before you (the note circulation book)—I placed them before Mr. Greenland every Tuesday—this is his signature at the bottom—the amount of notes authorised by law is 23,076l.—it did differ at the end of the four weeks—we had not sufficient notes on hand, and I called Mr. Kirkby's attention to it—this is the way it was made out afterwards—I went into the service twenty-five years ago.
Cross-examined. by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE, Q. When did you call Kirkby's attention to it? A. It must have been at the end of each month, but not perpetually—it would be at the end of the month—they must have been altered—these amounts of notes are wrong—I did not continually call Mr. Kirkby's attention to it, but I kept the book, and called his attention to the excess—the error was rectified by altering the amount—I must have knowingly made a false entry in my book, yes I did—I did not connive with Mr. Kirkby to make a false entry, I copied from his book—I believe every clerk in the bank knew the same thing as I did from the manager down to the junior clerk.
COURT. Q. You say that you copied the false entries from Kirkby? A. Yes, these are Kirkby's entries.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. When you say from the manager down to the junior clerk, do you include the directors? A. No, I believe they did not know it—I believe they were the only persons who did not know what was going on in the bank—I was not dismissed by Mr. Greenland for drunkenness—am I obliged to answer—I was suspended, but not dismissed—you might say it was for drunkenness I was suspended, I do not say it was—I do not wish to say what it was for—I might have been accused of that.
Q. Had you been accused pretty often of drunkenness, and were you suspended at last by Mr. Greenland?. A. Yes, and he took me back—I was not suspended after that, or turned away—I remained till the bank broke up.
MR. KEANE. Q. Do you say Mr. Greenland knew this? A. I believe from Mr. Greenland down to the junior clerk knew it.
HENRY WEBSTER BLACKBURN . I am an accountant of Bradford—I have examined the books of the Leeds Banking Company, for the purpose of ascertaining the number of notes in circulation from January, 1860, to 25th June, 1864—I examined the ledger and the cash balance books—I compared these books with the half-yearly return, and the corresponding weekly returns from the 2nd of January to the 25th June, 1864—I have made a tabular statement from the books—I used the ledger, that gave me the notes in use also—the weekly cash balance book, the notes circulation book, the bill circulation book, which is a different book from the note circulation book, and the general balance book.
Cross-examined. Q. Are they all in your writing? A. Yes, this is posted from the general cash book—there was no other book in use from which I made this ledger—it is not impossible to make out a banker's ledger from the cash-book only—the cashiers had a cash-book each, which are written into one book, and this book is posted from it—the book from which the ledger is made is not here.
COURT. Q. What is the name of it? A. The general cash-book—the cashiers wrote up their entries daily in the general cash-book, and the
ledger is posted from the general cash-book, which is made from the dally cash-books—there was what they called a weekly cash balance book and a daily cash-book—the weekly cash balance book was made from three—I posted from the daily and weekly cash-book, and not from the general cash-book—the general and weekly cash-book was written into the general cash-book, and I posted from that—the general cash-book is not here—I do not know whether it is at Mr. Turquand's.
MR. LEWIS. Q. Was the ledger constantly before Mr. Greenland? A. I do not know whether the ledger was, the weekly statement was taken from the ledger and placed before him—from the 2nd January, 1864, the notes in use were 39, 700l., the notes in hand 8950l., and the notes in circulation 30, 750l.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. How do you get the notes in hand? A. From the weekly cash-book—I get the notes in use from the ledger, and the difference between the two gives me the notes in circulation—the amount of notes in circulation is my conclusion from certain facts—I have made out this tabular statement from the 23rd January to the 25th June in that way.
MR. LEWIS. Q. Where do you get the bills from? A. From Hurst's book—the notes in use on the 2nd of January were 39, 700l., the notes in hand 8950l., and the notes in circulation 30, 750l, and the amount Green-land returns on the 2nd January, 1864, is 20, 750l.—the amount of excess of return is 10,000l.
COURT. Q. Does that return, 20, 750l., divided by twenty-six weeks, give the average yon name? A. Yes, 15, 260l. average excess per week—I cannot prove by the books of the bank what the over issue was at the time of its stoppage.
WILLIAM WALES . I am a share broker residing at Leeds, and was one of the shareholders in the Leeds Banking Company—I held sixty original shares when the bank failed—I remember the stopping of the bank in September, 1864—after it stopped I was present at a meeting of the committee—that was on the Wednesday, three days after it stopped—Mr. Greenland was not present—he was present about a week after that—we had several meetings, and it was several days before he attended—Mr. Kirkby was present at the bank every day, and was at the committee meetings, and Mr. Biggs and, I believe, Mr. Butler—I remember Mr. Green-land being asked with respect to the over issue of notes—I am not sure who asked him; it was one of the committee—he was asked if he was aware that the notes were over issued, as Mr. Kirkby had stated that such was the case—he said that it might be so, and that what Mr. Kirkby said would no doubt be correct—I am not certain whether anything was said as to the amount of the over issue—we had the matter talked over so often at every meeting that I cannot say—Kirkby had made a statement at that meeting and at a previous meeting—I believe he was asked to repeat in the presence of Mr. Greenland what he had said previously—he said there had been false returns made to Somerset House, and that the over issue of notes was something considerable—Mr. Greenland said to that what I have said before, that he had no doubt that what Mr. Kirkby said was correct—I do not recollect that anything was said as to the time during which there had been the over issue—I do not recollect that anything was said in the presence of Greenland with reference to the over issue—we were in and out of the room constantly, and it might have taken place in my absence. Cross-exmined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. What was said to Mr.
Greenland? who asked him? A. I think it was Mr. Butler—he asked him whether that was correct what Mr. Kirkby had stated—Mr. Kirkby had stated it just before—he said perhaps it might be so, or something to that effect—I do not profess to remember the exact words, but it was, "Perhaps it might be so, and if Mr. Kirkby said so no doubt it was correct."
Q. Did you act on some committee in instituting proceedings against the prisoner? A. I do not know that any proceedings were commenced against the prisoner by the committee, but by the liquidator—there was a committee directing the affairs of the bank after it stopped—they would not direct the action—I was consulted about the action to a certain extent.
Q. You got 6000l. out of it? A. I do not think it is all got yet, part is paid, and security is held for part—the action was brought for more than 6000l.—it was compromised by an arrangement that he should pay about that sum, of which he has paid 4000l., and has given security for 2000l., I believe.
COURT. Q. Was that an action brought by the liquidators? A. Yes. MR. TURQUAND. I am the official liquidator of the affairs of the bank—I cannot tell you the number of notes which were out—my clerk, who is here, can tell you—he produced the notes—this action was brought by the directors of the bank, in the name of Mr. Ward, to recover damages from Mr. Greenland, and it was compromised by payment of an agreed sum of 6000l., of which 4000l. has been paid—that is to go to the benefit of the shareholders, the assets of the bank being insufficient—Mr. Kerr is my clerk.
Cross-examined. by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. I expect the expenses of the winding up will be rather large, will they not? A. They will be, they will be 13, 000l., but not double that, nor yet 20, 000l.—at present the first item you named is more likely to be the case.
MR. KERR. I have got the notes here in a box—the amount retained by the liquidators is 40, 030l. in value.
MR. KEANE here stated that the last weekly return was 23, 076l. making the issue 17, 954l.
Cross-examined. by MR. GIFFARD. Q. Do you speak of a certain number of notes being out at a certain time. A. No, notes returned by the liquidators—I have a number of notes outside in a box—I have brought them from the creditors of the bank—the liquidator has received them as set-offs against debts—I know that of my own knowledge—I first saw them as they came in gradually to the various officers of the bank—various people have not told me that they have got them, but I have examined the books of the bank—the notes I have in the box came to me between the stoppage of the bank and the 30th of June—they came into the hands of the liquidator and his clerk—I know that personally, by being present there at Leeds—I frequently saw with my own eyes when a note came in from a creditor, and was handed across the counter, and I have got a large collection which various persons have received—I did not manage the business, it was Mr. Polenham.
MR. KEANE. Q. Do you know what notes were in the bank? A. Yes, this is exclusive of what were in the hands of the bank.
BENJAMIN BINKS . I was present when the committee, after the stoppage of the bank, saw Mr. Kirkby and Mr. Greenland at the same time—the committee was appointed on Wednesday—Mr. Greenland was sent for once or twice before he came.
COURT. Q. Mr. Greenland being present, what did Mr. Kirkby say?
A. Mr. Greenland was asked about the over issue—at first he did not appear to know anything of it, and Mr. Kirkby was sent for and asked to explain, in the presence of Mr. Greenland, what he had said before the committee, and he went on to explain how it was done, and that it was done through the instigation of Mr. Greenland; and when he had explained the matter Mr. Greenland said that if Mr. Kirkby said so it must be so.
Cross-examined. by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. At that time was Mr. Greenland very ill? A. He made it appear so—Mr. Wales was in the room, but whether he went out during the time Mr. Greenland was there I do not know.
Q. He did not, because he has been speaking of it. Was Mr. Kirkby sent for? A. Yes, to explain, after Mr. Greenland said that he did not know anything about it—Mr. Greenland did not say in those words that he did not know anything about it, but he made an evasive answer—his answer was that he could not explain it, he did not know anything of it—that is what I call an evasive answer—Mr. Kirkby was then sent for, and Mr. Butler asked him to explain what he did with respect to the over issue of notes—Mr. Kirkby explained the matter fully—he said that he had made up the balance to return to Government by making up all the notes he had as Leeds Bank notes, and that he had done it under the instructions of Mr. Greenland—he said that all at once—I am sure he used the word instructions.
Q. Last time you said, "At the instigation?" A. Well, I cannot be positive whether it was "instruction" or "instigation"—I look upon those words as both bearing the same meaning—I am quite sure it was one of them, and I give the preference to "instruction."
Q. Then "instigation" is your own word? A. Well, he may have used both—there were a great many questions asked at the time—Mr. Greenland sat in the room, and I really thought he was ill at the time—he asked to go out of the room, and said that he would go and get a little fresh air and return shortly—he said, "Perhaps it might have been so, and if Mr. Kirkby says so it must be so"—he did not say, "Perhaps it may have been so"—I did not understand it so—I understood it was, "If Mr. Kirkby says so it must be so"—I am not one of the prosecutors—I am not contributing to the prosecution, and I have never been asked—I am not going to do so.
The deed of settlement of the Leeds Banking Company, dated 1832, was here put it.
MR. FREDERICK SIMPSON gave the prisoner a good character. GUILTY. Recommended to mercy by the Jury on account of his extreme age and the loose manner in which the affairs of the bank were conducted; and it was the opinion of some of the jury that he was placed in that position by some of those now witnesses against him.
The COURT reserved the point of law, and the prisoner was released on bail to appear and receive judgment next Session.
THIRD COURT.—Thursday, October 25th, 1866.
Before Mr. Recorder.
MESSRS. SLEIGH, MONTAGU WILLIAMS, and STARLING conducted the Prosecution, and MESSRS. COOPER, GRIFFITHS, and TURNER the Defence. CHARLES STANLEY. I am the chief usher at the Marylebone Police-court—I was present there on the hearing of a charge against two persons, named Dye and Pearce, for burglary, on 31st August—I know the defendant—he is a constable in the S division of police—on that occasion he gave his evidence in the case against Dye and Pearce—I administered the oath to him.
MR. COOPER. Q. Was the charge in writing? A. Yes—when persons are brought before the police-court the charge-sheet is produced—it is not always read—the Magistrate has it before him.
MR. STARLING. Q. Is that the charge-sheet you had before you (produced)? A. Yes (read)—"Henry Dye charged with being found in an enclosed garden at 63, Gloucester Crescent, supposed for an unlawful purpose; further, with Charles Pearce, burglariously breaking and entering the above house. Persons charging, Matthew Hayes, and William Barry"—I took down Barry's evidence—these are the original depositions, which I wrote—his deposition was read over to him, and he signed it (read)—"William Barry, sworn, saith: I was with the first witness, and saw the prisoner in the garden. I took Pearce into custody. William Barry"—I have no recollection that Barry said anything upon that examination about a chase of 150 yards—if I had heard him say so I should have put it down.
Cross-examined. by MR. COOPER. Q. I suppose you will not swear he did not say so? A. I did not take it down, that is all I can say—he had an opportunity of saying it—I do not recollect seeing Mr. Sheldon, the reporter, in court—I did not see any reporter there—we are presumed to take down everything.
MR. SLEIGH. Q. Do you take down everything that is important? A. Everything the Magistrate thinks important—I remember reading this deposition over to Barry—he did not ask me to make any alteration in it whatever.
SAMUEL FOULCHER . I am one of the assistant clerks of the peace to the County of Middlesex—I act at times at Mr. Payne's court at the Middlesex Sessions—I produce the indictment in the trial of Pearce and Dye, and the verdict upon it—they were tried for attempting to break and enter the dwellinghouse of Francis Thomas Dolman—the verdict entered is "Not Guilty."
HENRY THOMPSON . I live at Kingswood Cottage, Walworth, and am a reporter at the Middlesex Sessions—I knew the usher who administered the oaths in Mr. Payne's court, his name was Henry Minton—he is since dead; he committed suicide—I was present in my official capacity at the trial of Dye and Pearce, who were charged with attempted burglary—I recognise Barry as a person who gave evidence in that case—I was present when the oath was administered to him—I heard the oath administered—I took down shorthand notes of that trial myself, and have them here—I took all that was said as far as the police were concerned—William Barry said, "I am a police-constable, 99 S—I recollect the night of 30th August, it was a Thursday—I remember Small coming to the station—in consequence of something Small said, I was sent with him to join Hayes in Mornington
Road—it was from ten minutes to half-past twelve when Small arrived at the station—I then joined Hayes, about twenty-five minutes past twelve—when I got there I went along with Hayes and followed the two prisoners—they were pointed out to me several times up the Mornington Road—we lost sight of them in Gloucester Crescent—I saw the prisoner Pearce jumping over the garden wall of 63, Gloucester Crescent, into the street—when he jumped over the wall he ran, I pursued him and took him into custody—I then took Pearce to the station-house—Hayes took the other man—at the station-house a knife was produced by Hayes—if Hayes said anything about the knife the prisoners could have heard it—at the police-station Hayes produced the knife, and Dye said, 'That is my knife,' and Pearce said, 'Yes, I sharpened it for you'—it was about three o'clock when we got back after this charge was taken—we examined the premises in company—we examined the area window, it was open and raised up two or three inches of the sash—I then saw a part where the latch had been tampered with—there was a chisel found in the area—I rang the bell about four o'clock—it was about the break of day—me and Hayes went in, the servant answered the bell, Mary Ann Northcote—we saw marks on the window inside—I saw bits of shaving, as if cut off—we compared the knife with the marks, and they corresponded—I was not in company with Hayes on that night before—I was not in company with Hayes in Eversholt Street that night—I did not see Hayes till I was sent for to the station-house, and that was past twelve o'clock—I nor Hayes did not strike the prisoners with our staves, they never complained of our striking them—as we were going to the station-house a woman spoke to them. Cross-examined., Besides the woman there were not three or four other persons with them before the prisoners were taken to the station-house—it is utterly untrue that me and Hayes were at the 'Stationers' Arms'—it is a simple fabrication—we passed there some time after we had been to the station-house (Wright, Osler, and others were brought into the court)
MR. SLEIGH. Q. Having seen those persons, were they to swear that you and Hayes were at the 'Stationers' Arms' and drinking there, that would be utterly untrue? A. Yes—I remember seeing one of them a night or two before, on that night I never saw them—I saw one of them a night or two before at the 'Stationers' Arms'—in the morning before I took the prisoners to the station-house I was not in Eversholt Street, or close to it—I had an umberlla in my hand—I was in plain clothes—I had an umbrella in my hand, and Hayes, who was with me, might have seen it—neither me nor Hayes struck the prisoner or poked him with the umbrella, neither when they were being taken into custody or after—it was after a pursuit of 150 yards that I overtook the prisoner—I said before the Magistrate that I pursued the prisoner—I saw him jump over a wall—I said before that I saw him leave the garden—I told the Magistrate that—I told the Magistrate that I saw Pearce leap over a wall, and pursued him for 150 yards. Q. Do you mean to adhere to the statement that you told the Magistrate that you saw Pearce leap over the wall? A. I do. Q. You say that, though it is not returned anything of the kind? A. I do—I did not take any other person into custody in Eversholt Street—we conveyed the prisoners from Gloucester Crescent, across Park Street, Mornington Road, Stanhope Street, Cumberland Market—we got into Cumberland Market, passing through a small part of Edward Street into Earnest Street to Little Albany Street.
MR. SLEIGH. Q. Do you call that the most direct way? A. It is as
direct as any other. Q. Was not the direct way through Albany Street? A. I do not know. Q. Did you tell the Magistrate that these lads gave false addresses? A. One of them I said did. Q. Which was that? A. I think that was Dye—I am not sure, but I can explain that. Q. You told the Magistrate that one gave a false address? A. Yes. Q. Was the address that one gave No. 18, Bayham Street? A. Yes. Q. You did not go to No. 18 A, Bayham Street? A. No. Q. Did you tell the Magistrate, on remand, that it was not 18, but 18 A, and that you had found out that was where the mother lived? A. There was no examination on remand. Q. Did you tell the Magistrate that? A. No, we were not examined on remand. Q. Was not Hayes on the remand put into the witness box, and he said there was no further evidence against these lads? A. He said something to the Magistrate, but I don't what it was—I was not called into the box. Q. You were in plain clothes? A. Yes. Re-examined. It is true that Pearce leaped over the wall—I saw one of these persons a few nights before there in the 'Stationers' Arms'—that was the shortest one."
Cross-examined. by MR. COOPER. Q. Were you present in Court all the time? A. Yes, I heard the whole of the trial—I remember a witness named Grocer being called—I did not take his evidence down, I was only instructed to take what affected the police, the evidence given by them and their cross-examination—Mr. Lewis's clerk instructed me, the gentleman who appears for the prosecution here—I heard Grocer give his evidence—I have a few words of it here—there was evidence given on the part of the defence to prove that the police were at the "Stationers' Arms" that night.
CHARLES PEARCE . I live at 15, Johnson Street, Somer's Town, with my parents—I am in the service of Mr. John Ivory, a pianoforte maker, and have been so about ten months, he has known me several years—I know a person of the name of Dye—I saw him on the night of 30th August—I first met him on that night in the "Slips," Regent's Park, about eight o'clock, as near as I can guess—I did not part company with him at all from that time until we were taken into custody—I know Gloucester Crescent—between eight o'clock and the time we were taken into custody on that night I was not in Gloucester Crescent—I was not at the house No. 63, Gloucester Crescent—the nearest point which I was to Gloucester Crescent was the "York and Albany" public-house—I should think it is about 100 yards from the "York and Albany" to No. 63, Gloucester Crescent—I was taken into custody in Eversholt Street—I was not taken into custody in Gloucester Crescent—I was taken about half-past one—Barry took me into custody—Hayes took Dye—I did not see him take him, but I saw him bring him across the road—I was coming along Eversholt Street then, and then he went round the mews—it is not true that I got over any wall in Gloucester Crescent—I was not told what I was taken into custody for—Barry said nothing at all to me at the time he took me—Hayes said to Barry, "Collar him, we may as well have a couple"—we were taken in Eversholt Street, and conveyed to the station in Albany Street—we were taken along Lidlington Place, across Harrington Square, across the Hampstead Road, round Mornington Crescent, up Stanhope Place, along Stanhope Street, into Edward Street, Hampstead Road, across Cumberland Market, into Munster Street, I believe the name is, up Ernest Street, down Little Albany Street into the back way of the station-house—when I was at the station-house I saw Hayes—nobody followed us to the station
but one girl—that was Phoebe Glue—I know a person named Gregory—he was with us at the time we were taken in custody—I heard one of the constables, I could not say which it was, say to Gregory at that time, "If you don't go away we will have you"—the two constables were together at that time—upon that Gregory went away directly—Hayes came with us to the station-house—I asked him what we were charged with, and he told me to hold my noise—I first learnt what I was in custody for the next morning when they took us out of the cell to go to Marylebone—as near as I can guess I should think that was about ten—we were searched at the station-house—Hayes held up a knife, and Dye said, "That is my knife," and I said, "Yes, I sharpened it for you yesterday"—we had been about seven or eight minutes in the station before that knife was produced.
Cross-examined. by MR. COOPER. Q. You seem to know this neighbourhood well, these streets you have told us of? A. Yes, I live very near, in Johnson Street—that runs out of Seymour Street, which is all in a line with Eversholt Street—I have never met Glue in Eversholt Street, I swear that, or Seymour Street—I have met her in Regent's Park, no-where else—I have met her in what is called the "Slips"—I did not know much of her—I have been there two or three times a week—I have not gone with my friend to meet our girls—Dye goes alone to meet his girl—Glue is Dye's girl—I have gone with others—I go there to walk and smoke.
Q. Do not you know that common girls go there? A. I know those sort of girls go there—I do not appoint to meet girls there—I have seen girls and men meeting there—I don't know a girl named Lotty, who goes there—I have heard the name of Rachel mentioned, not "Scotchy"—I know Eversholt Street well—I have worked there—it was about half-past one when we were taken in Eversholt Street—previous to that time I saw one policeman in High Street—Eversholt Street runs out of High Street—I don't know the name of that policeman—I don't known a policeman of the name of Collins—I did not see a policeman that night on his beat in Ampthill Street or Ampthill Square—I had been to the "York and Albany" that night—the policeman in High Street was the only one I saw the whole of that night, that I swear—in going from Eversholt Street up to the police-station we did not pass any policemen on their beat—I believe there is a nearer way from Eversholt Street to the police-station than that I have told you—I go the way you have mentioned to my work of a day—I do not know that we were taken to the station the usual way that prisoners are taken, in the back way—I was never taken to a station-house before—I know the front way, in Albany Street—we were taken in the back way, in Little Albany Street—Glue came with us to the back way to the station-house, quite up to the station-house door—after passing Cumberland Market, and gettting near Stanhope Street, we did not pass a policeman named Stanco, that I am aware of—I am not aware that we passed any policeman on our way to the station—I never heard the sergeant at the station-house ask the policeman who brought us what the charge was—I will swear that—I did not hear him say, "I charge these men with being in enclosed ground, at 63, Gloucester Crescent"—I will swear that—Barry stood by my side—I believe Dye stood by the side of Hayes—I did not hear them say, "I charge these young men with being in enclosed ground, in 63, Gloucester Crescent"—we did not then say, "Oh! we were never at Gloucester Crescent, we were in Eversholt Street"—I will swear I did not hear Dye say that, and I swear I did not say so—I did not hear
the policemen say anything to Dye about loitering, not a word—it would take a quarter of an hour to walk from Eversholt Street to the station—it would be about a quarter to two when we were at the station—I often frequent the "York and Albany," and also the "Stationers' Arms"—I was at the "Stationers' Arms" that night—I got there about ten minutes past twelve, the barman served me—I did not see the landlady or the landlord, no one but the barman—Dye, Gregory, Blackburn, George Potts, and Phoebe Glue, were with me there—Gregory was examined at my trial, and Blackburn, Potts, and Phoebe Glue—those four were examined for us at the court before Mr. Judge Payne—a man of the name of Grocer was examined, and Wright and Osler.
MR. WILLIAMS. Q. Do I understand you to say that you were at the "Stationers' Arms?" A. No, I thought that was the sign of Smith's public-house, in Park Street, at the corner of Grove Street.
COURT. Q. Don't you know the "Stationers' Arms?" A. I know where the gentleman means now, he means the public-house at the corner of Warren Street—I was not at the "Stationers' Arms," it was at the corner of Park Street and Warren Street that I was with these persons—I believe the sign of the house is the "Camden Stores."
MR. COOPER. Q. You fancied when I said the "Stationers' Arms" that I meant the "Camden Stores?" A. Yes, there is not a place called the "Camden Arms" as well as the "Camden Stores," that I am aware of—I was also at the "Regalia" tavern that night from between half-past eight and nine till about twenty minutes past eleven—Dye, Gregory, Blackburn, and Potts were with me there, not Glue—I might have met some policemen on their beat as I was going from these stores to the "Regalia"—I did not notice any—we went away from the "Regalia" to the "York and Albany," and from there to the "Camden Stores"—we then went down Park Street and High Street, Camden Town.
MR. WILLIAMS. Q. You have been asked about the route that you took, do you know where Lidlington Place is? A. Yes—there are some iron posts there—when we came to the iron posts the policemen stopped, as though considering, for a minute or two, which way they would take us.
HENRY DYE . I live at No. 18 A, Bayham Place, in the neighbourhood of Camden Town, with my relations, and am in the employment of Mr. Burton, a plumber of Frederick Street—I have been so for two years—I have lived with my parents at this house for three or four years—I know Pearce, who has just been examined—on the evening of the 30th of August I was in his company—I met him about half-past seven o'clock in Regent's Park—I was not out of his company from that time until we were taken into custody the following morning between one and two o'clock—Phoebe Glue was with us part of the time—I have known her about six months—she lives with her mother in Fitzroy Place—I was in her company part of the time—she left us about eight o'clock or half-past to go to her brother's, somewhere in Camden Town, near Camden station—she rejoined us about twelve o'clock at the "York and Albany," and remained in our company till we were taken into custody—the first time I saw anything of Barry and the other constable was at the corner of Warren Street, in Camden Town—I had no watch, nor had Pearce—it was about one o'clock—there was a bit of a row or something at the corner of Warren Street—we met some people there—I had seen them before, but not to speak to them—we had been at different public-houses drinking—me and Pearce wanted to fight—we did not fight—we went away then, and saw this man and the other
constable go down Camden Town—one had a light coat on, and the other had a dark one—one of them had an umbrella in his hand, I believe Hayes, he was the one with the light coat—I think it was Barry had the umbrella, now I come to think of it—the man who had the dark coat on had the umbrella—when we got a little further on in Camden Town we saw a man in a fit, and stopped to see it—Hayes and Barry came behind, us and pushed us, and said we had better move on—they said, "Sling your dannel"—I understood that to mean to go on—we crossed the road, and these men followed us, and me and Blackburn ran round King Street, and ran down Bayham Street, and came out at the bottom of High Street again, and met the others, Glue, Pearce, and Gregory—we left the policemen, ran away from them—I saw them again when we were bidding one another good night at the corner of High Street, and they got into a hansom cab—this was about half-past one or a quarter to two o'clock, as near as I can guess—the cab turned back and drove towards Tottenham Court Road—we walked up Eversholt Street, and when we got as far Crawley Mews I was going round there to make water, and Hayes, the one in the light coat, up with his fist and hit me in the ear and knocked me down in the road—I did not see anything more of the cab—they picked me up again, they were both waiting round the corner, just round by the public-house, then Hayes said to the other, "Collar him; I have got one, we may as well have a couple"—Pearce was then just across the road, they were just coming across to see what was the matter, when they saw me knocked down—there was Pearce and Gregory and Glue—Barry then went and took Pearce—I saw that, and he told Gregory he had better be off home, else he would have him too—Gregory then went home—Glue stopped and walked behind us—we were taken to the station—she followed us to the station, in Little Albany Street—during the whole of the time up to the moment when we were taken into custody in Eversholt Street neither myself or Pearce were at No. 63, Gloucester Crescent, or in the garden, or near it, not nearer than the "York and Albany"—when we got to the station I asked Hayes what we were charged with, he said, "Hold your noise"—then I asked him again, and he said, "You will know in the morning"—the prisoner did not, nor did anybody in my hearing at the station-house tell us that we were taken on a charge of attempting to commit a burglary—this is my knife (produced)—I have had it six or twelve months—I had it with me on the evening in question—I had it when I was taken into custody—I had it when I was taken to the police-station—it was in my pocket when I was taken into the police-station—Hayes took it away from me, and held it up like this, open, and said, "Here's a fine thing," or something of that sort—I said, "That is my knife"—Pearce said, "Yes, I sharpened it for you yesterday"—that was true.
Cross-examined by MR. COOPER. Q. When you first went to the station-house did you see a sergeant in charge there, did you see another man there in uniform? A. Yes—I did not hear him say to the constable who brought me in, "What charge do you make against these young men?"—I did not hear the constable say, "For finding them in enclosed ground at No. 63, Gloucester Crescent"—I will swear I did not hear that—I was close to him; we were put in that place just in front of where they write down, with a policeman by the side of each of us—the man in uniform came forward—I will swear he did not ask what charge was made against us and I did not hear the constables say that we were found in enclosed premises at No. 63, Gloucester Crescent—I should have heard it if they
had said it out—there were two or three other constables in the station besides Hayes and Barry and the man in uniform; no one else—I went to the "Camden Stores" that night, and to the "York and Albany," and to the "Regalia"—I went to the "Slips" that night to meet Glue—I did not see Pearce meet any one—there were no other girls there besides Glue when I went—I have been in the habit of meeting Glue in the "Slips"—I know most of the streets about there—I live about two minutes' walk from Eversholt Street—I did not say at the station that we were never in Gloucester Crescent that night, but in Eversholt Street—they did not ask us any questions—I did not hear Pearce say so—I will swear that I did not say, "I was" or, "We were not in Eversholt Street"—I never did say so—I did not hear Pearce say so—I cannot swear he did not—I forget now whether he did or not—that is to be my answer.
MR. SLEIGH. Q. Did you at the station-house that night say anything about Gloucester Crescent? A. No—I never heard anything about Gloucester Crescent, I gave my name and address at the station when I was taken, Henry Dye, No. 18 A Bayham Place.
MR. COOPER. Q. Will you swear you gave that address loudly? A. Yes, so that all might hear it—there was somebody writing it down.
WILLIAM GREGORY . I live at 26, Judd Street, and am in the employ of Mr. Meadow, Parson's Street, Leicester Square, pianoforte manufacturer—I know Dye and Pearce, Phoebe Glue, Potts, and Blackburn—I was with them on the night of 30th August—I met Dye and Pearce, and Phoebe Glue, Blackburn, and one or two more young men in the Park, at a place called the "Slips," from half-past seven to eight o'clock—I was in company with Pearce and Dye until they were taken into custody—from the time that I met them till they were taken into custody they were not in or near the garden of 63, Gloucester Crescent—the nearest point which we were to 63, Gloucester Crescent, that evening was the "York and Albany"—they were taken into custody in Seymour Street—which is in a line with Eversholt Street, they join—I believe it is all called Seymour Street now—I first saw the defendant and the other constable at the corner of Warren Street—there were two or three more young men there at that time, Grocer and Osler and Wright—the police constables followed us down Camden Town—there was me, Dye, Pearce, Blackburn, and Phoebe Glue—we left Blackburn at the corner of Eversholt Street, and went up Eversholt Street—Dye went on ahead—the police constables were up at the corner when we got to the top—we went up Eversholt Street, and Dye ran on ahead and across the road to Grave's public-house, and he was knocked down there—it was at the corner of Crawley Mews—he went across to make water—I do not know the constables' names, but I believe it was Barry came up and knocked Dye down—he afterwards got up—me and Pearce and Glue ran up to see what was the matter—the constable that had Dye said, "Collar him, we might as well have a couple," and then the other constable crossed the road and took Pearce—I said nothing—both the constables said to me, "You had better be off home, else we will have you," and I went home—I live at a quarter of an hour's walk from there—Eversholt Street was on my road home from where I was that night.
Cross-examined. by MR. COOPER. Q. Have you been friends with Dye and Pearce some time? A. Yes, seven or eight years—I have not been in the habit of going to the "Slips" with them all that time—I have been in the habit of going with them there two or three times a week—I do not know the name of Scotchy—I know Glue, she was Dye's friend—I do not
know who Pearce's was—I do not know a girl named Rachel that I am aware of—I go out to meet Pearce—I see some of the girls up there—I have not seen Pearce go with some of these girls—I have been up to meet Pearce, and I have met the girls there—I have been to the "York and Albany" with them with other friends—I have not been to the "Regalia" with them—they have been at the "Camden Stores" when I have been in there—I have not treated them to drink sometimes—I have been to the "Stationers' Arms"—I did not go there that night—I know the neighbourhood about there—I did not meet the police on their beat that night—I don't remember meeting one at any one place—I mean to say upon my oath I did not meet one, except the two who took Dye and Pearce—they were not in police clothes—I did not go with them up to the police-station, I went home.
COURT. Q. When did you first see the prisoner and the other policeman? A. I first met them at the corner of Warren Street, that was close upon half-past one—there was a disturbance at the corner of Warren Street, Pearce was going to fight—then I saw the two policemen come up—I did not know they were policemen then—they pushed me and Blackburn away—I did not run away, we walked.
PHOEBE GLUE . I live at 11, Upper Fitzroy Place with my mother, who is a laundress—I assist her in her business—I know Henry Dye and Pearce—I know a place called the "Slips" in Regent's Park—I saw Pearce and Dye there on the night of 30th August about half-past seven—I remained with them about three-quarters of an hour, and then left them going down to the "Regalia"—I was going to my brother's—I went to Randolph Street, and found he had removed, and I returned back again at about half-past eleven.
COURT. Q. What were you doing from a quarter after eight till half-past eleven? A. I went for a walk by myself.
MR. WILLIAMS. Q. Did you go to a house that night called the "York and Albany?"A. Yes, about half-past eleven—I saw Pearce and Dye there—we stopped there till about five minutes or a quarter to twelve, I can't say which—I was present when they were taken into custody in Eversholt Street—I was with them from the time I went to the "York and Albany" until the time they were taken—I know Gloucester Crescent—neither of them were at any time that night with me in Gloucester Crescent or near there—when we were in Eversholt Street Dye went across to a public-house up the mews, and one of the gentlemen, the one with a light coat on, took a run across the road, from where he was waiting at the corner of Eversholt Street, and knocked Dye down—at the time that Dye crossed the road Gregory and Pearce were with me—we came across Eversholt Street, and Hayes came across the road and said to Barry, "I have got one, you take the other," and Barry took Pearce into custody, Gregory went home—Barry said to him, "If you don't be off home we will have you"—I followed to the police-station—I was not allowed to go in, they shut the door in my face—they came for me to come as a witness on the trial at the Middlesex Sessions—I did not give my evidence because I was ill at home—I was asked to come, and I was unable.
Cross-examined. by MR. GRIFFITHS. Q. Your father is dead, I think, is he not? A. My father is, my mother has married again—my father-in-law and I have had one or two quarrels—he has not locked me out all night—I have never slept out of the house at night, I have been with the lodgers—I will swear that I never slept out of the house after my father-in-law
has been angry with me—he has been angry with me for stopping out late about a couple of times—my mother has not often been angry with me for stopping out late at night, not above five or six times—I did not stay out later than twelve, only that one night, when it was one o'clock; I mean to say that I have not stopped out later than twelve on more than one occasion—I know a girl named Scotchy—I have heard the name of Rachel—I have not been much in company with her—I have not been in the "Slips" walking with her, on my oath—I have not been in the "Slips" walking with her—I have talked to her in the "Slips," and to Rachel—I know a girl named Lotty—I have spoken to her in the "Slips"—I have not walked about with her on my oath—my sister does not go with me—Scotchy is Pearce's girl, I believe—I have seen him with Scotchy—I and Scotchy and Rachel sometimes leave these young men in the "Slips" after we have met them and take a walk, and then meet them again in the "Slips."
Q. Have you and Scotchy and these other young ladies been warned to keep out of the "Slips" by the Park constables? A. I never had a warning in my life—Scotchy has not been warned when I have been with her—I will swear I have not been warned by the Park constables to keep out of those "Slips" (Gould and Myers were here called in)—I see those two men—I know them—I still persist in swearing that they have never ordered me to leave the Park, never, or said one word to me, or to Scotchy or Rachel in my presence—I often used to go up to these "Slips"—that was before these men took their trial—I have not been there since, on my oath—I have been to the "York and Albany"—I have met Pearce and Dye up at the "Slips" once since they were acquitted at the Middlesex Sessions—I thought you meant when they were in prison—Scotchy and the other girls did not go with us on that occasion—I was with Dye once, and Scotchy was with Pearce—I don't know whose young lady Rachel is, the young man has gone in the country, I believe—sometimes we go to the "York and Albany," sometimes to the "Regalia," and sometimes to Smith's—I have got a latch key to let me into my own house—I am sure I followed them down to the police-station.
MR. WILLIAMS. Q. You have been asked about your mother being angry with you about staying out late at night, is that so? A. Yes—she has been angry with me sometimes—I have never slept out of the house.
COURT. Q. Does your mother allow you this latch key? A. Yes, when I used to go errands.
GEORGE POTTS . I live at 18, Cumberland Market, with my mother, who keeps an umbrella shop—my father is dead—I work for my mother—I know Dye, and Pearce, and Gregory, and Blackburn—I have known Dye and Pearce about two years, or a little over—I know Phoebe Glue—I know the place called the "Slips," near the Regent's Park—on the evening of 30th August I met Pearce, Dye, Blackburn, and several others there about eight o'clock—we went from there to the "Regalia," and then to the "York and Albany"—we left the "York and Albany" at twelve, and went to Smith's, in Park Street—I think it is called the "Camden Stores"—we stopped there till five minutes to one, or about that—a young girl, that I call Rachel, left the "Camden Stores" with me—I walked with her to the corner of High Street, and then left her and went down High Street by myself—I left Pearce and Dye in Smith's public-house—I left before them.
Q. From the time that you left the "Slips" between eight and nine o'clock
till the time you left them at Smith's had they been in your company the whole time? A. They might have parted with us for a few minutes, but not long—they might have been talking to some one else a few yards off—I was not in Gloucester Crescent at all that night.
Cross-examined. by MR. COOPER. Q. You have been in the habit of meeting Dye and Pearce at the "Slips" with this woman? A. Yes—I have no young woman—I did not take another man's young woman—we might have talked about Rachel's young man being in the country—I did not say I would supply his place, nothing of the kind—I know this neighbourhood very well—since the acquittal of my friends I have met them in Camden Town—I might have met them at the "Slips" once or twice—I don't think they said, "We will do the police now"—I don't think they mentioned the police that night—that night, I believe, Pearce and his brother and a few other friends went to his brother's, and we did not mention anything about the police to my knowledge—I did not hear anything about them—I went away with them from the Sessions House after their acquittal—I did not meet them till the next night—they did not, to my knowledge, say on any of the occasions that I met them, "Now we will do the police"—I never heard them say so.
LEONARD BLACKBURN . I live at No. 9, Wellington Terrace, Kentish Town, and am clerk in the Langley Coal Office, King Street, Cheapside—I have known Dye and Pearce some time—on the evening of 30th August I met them at the "Slips" in the Regent's Park, about half-past eight—we went from there to the "Regalia," and from there to the "York and Albany," and then down Park Street to Smith's, at the corner of Grove Street—we left Smith's about one, or five minutes to one, and went down High Street, Hampstead Road—when we got to the corner of Warren Street there was a disturbance—Pearce and Dye wanted to fight some young chaps who were there—I know Barry and Haves—when we were at the corner of warren Street I perceived them standing at the side of the young chaps who wanted to fight—I parted with Pearce and Dye about ten minutes to two o'clock, at the corner of Eversholt Street—they were going down Eversholt Street—during the whole time from the time we were at the "Slips" till I parted with them in Eversholt Street I was with them—during that time neither I nor they went into Gloucester Crescent—I know where Gloucester Crescent is—when we got about 200 or 300 yards down Warren Street there was a man in a fit—we stopped to see him, and Hayes and Barry came behind us and told us to go on, told us to sling our dannel—we went across the road—they followed behind us—the one with the light overcoat struck me with an umbrella—me and Dye ran down King Street, we came down Bayham Place, and came out by Trotman's, the perambulator makers, at the corner of High Street—I was not with them when they were taken into custody—I parted with them at the corner of Eversholt Street—Glue, Pearce, Gregory, and Dye were there when I came out—I just crossed over the road—at the other corner there is a chemist's, of the name of Gale—it was at that chemist's shop that I parted with them.
Cross-examined. by MR. COOPER. Q. My friend called you a clerk to a coal company; it is your father, is it not? A. No—there is one clerk—another party has an office there, who has a clerk—it is at No. 3, King Street, Cheapside, on the second floor—I have been in prison, last February twelve months, for three weeks, for striking a gatekeeper at the gate going into the "Slips."
MR. WILLIAMS. Q. You were taken before Mr. Mansfield, at the police-court? A. Yes, and he fined me 40s.—I did not wish to communicate with my parents, and I went to prison.
GEORGE OSLER . I am a grainer, residing at Kentish Town—on the night of 30th August I was at the "Stationers' Arms," at the corner of Warren Street—I stopped there till the house was closed, about a quarter or five minutes before one—when I came out I stood outside for a short time with Grocer and Wright—while standing there I saw a number of youths coming down High Street—Pearce and Dye were among them—I saw Hayes and Barry there too—Pearce and Dye came up and pushed against me, and very nearly pushed me into the road—then they walked just past me, turned back, and went up Warren Street—the constables were standing just round the corner of Warren Street—I saw the boys go and speak to them—I then saw the boys pass me again, and go down the Hampstead Road towards Mornington Crescent—that is towards Eversholt Street way—I did not see any one following them at that time—I missed Hayes and Barry all at once—I went away, and went home.
Cross-examined. by MR. COOPER. Q. When were you first asked about this matter? how long after this night? A. I think it was the second night after this happened—Pearce's elder brother came to me on the Saturday night—I have not been friends with Pearce and his brother—I have seen them once or twice before, not to speak to them—I call in at the "Stationers' Arms" of an evening—there were two females behind the bar on this evening—I took one to be the landlady—I know the youngest girl there—I was not positive which was the landlady, Mrs. Hughes—I saw both Hayes and Barry in that house when I went in—I did not see them served—they were in when I went in at a quarter past twelve—I am sure I saw them there on that night—I saw two glasses before them—they were standing leaning against the counter close to me, one of them was talking to the females when I went in—they were in plain clothes—one had a black pilot coat on—I think the other had a light coat—I won't be positive about that—I am quite sure I saw them there.
MR. WILLIAMS. Q. Was it after that that you saw them outside the public-house? A. Yes—I went away directly after I saw the boys go down the street—I can't say whether Barry and Hayes remained outside or not.
THOMAS GROCER . I am a master grainer, and live at Kentish Town—I know George Osler and Wright—I also know the "Stationers' Arms" public-house at the corner of Warren Street—it is a late house, and keeps open till one o'clock—I know Barry and Hayes by sight now—I went inside the "Stationers' Arms," and there saw both Hayes and Barry—I know Pearce and Dye by sight—I saw them that night after I came out of the "Stationers' Arms," about twenty minutes or a quarter past one—I was then standing at the corner of Warren Street, outside the "Stationers' Arms"—they came up, and pushed us, and wanted to fight—we did not take any notice of them, and they went into Warren Street, and the two policemen in private clothes followed them—the young fellows were going in the direction of Eversholt Street.
Cross-examined. by MR. COOPER. Q. I suppose you have been friends with these boys for some time? A. No, I have not—I have known them by sight for some few years, from living in Camden Town—I have not been to the "Slips" with them—I know the landlady of the "Stationers' Arms"—I did not see her there that night—there were two females in the
bar, I cannot describe them—I appeared at the trial before Mr. Payne—I did not on that occasion say that the landlady was there, and that she served these two men with liquor—I cannot swear that—there are two barmaids there—one is much older than the other—the men stood in the bar against the counter—I am sure they were there.
MR. WILLIAMS. Q. Pearce and Dye are not daily companions of yours? A. No, I do not suppose I have passed more than five or six words with them in my life before that night.
JOHN THOMAS WRIGHT . I assist my father, a paperhanger, at 98, High Street, at the corner of Pratt Street, opposite to the "Stationers' Arms"—on Thursday night, 30th August, I called in at the "Stationers' Arms" with Osler and Grocer and had a glass of ale—there were two men there drinking—I know the other one, the dark one (Hayes), I since know who he is—we came outside after the house was closed, and stood there for some time—while standing there some young men ran up Warren Street—I said to Grocer and Osler, "Let us run up there and see what is the matter"—Pearce, I think his name is, wanted to fight me—he said, "Do you wait to fight?" I said, "No, thank you," and I walked away—they passed us and went down High Street—I did not take particular notice whether anybody followed them—I saw two or three boys, and I think there was a girl—they were going in the direction of Eversholt Street—it would be a straight road.
Cross-examined. by MR. GRIFFITHS. Q. What time was it when you went into the house? A. I can't say—I was playing billiards at the time, and I stopped there till Mr. Hughes said it was time to go—I know the land-lady, Mrs. Hughes, she was not serving in the bar that night, she was out of town—I had dinner with her and wished her good bye when she went—I suppose the bar girls were serving in the bar, I did not take particular notice—I know Mrs. Hughes was not there, she left on the Saturday—it might be two Saturdays before, I know it was before this happened—I did not notice how many barmaids there were in the bar that evening, there are generally two—I did not know Barry before—I have not long been in England.
JOHN IVORY . I reside at 53, College Place, Camden Town, and am a pianoforte manufacturer—on the day after the trial of the case against Dye and Pearce, at the Middlesex Sessions, I went to Mr. Dolman's house, 63, Gloucester Crescent—he showed me the front kitchen window, and I examined it in his presence—I saw some three or four slight cuts on the window, extending upwards about one-eighth and one-sixteenth of an inch—they had been cut evidently by a knife—I saw the cuts when I was inside the kitchen, they were on the right side of the fastening, the side towards which it opens—at that time I was under the impression that the cuts could not be made unless the window was open—on a subsequent examination of the window I found that the lower bar of the top sash came when fastened lower than the top bar of the lower sash, so that the cuts might have been made from the outside, and when the window was fastened—at that time I had the knife which was produced at the trial in my possession—I borrowed another knife from Mr. Dolman, a common table-knife, you would call it a cheese-knife, much thicker than the one said to have been used—when the window was fastened I attempted to put that thicker knife up between the two sashes from the outside, and I could just see the point of it—I used a great amount of force to wriggle it up, and I could just see the point of it, but I could not get it to act on the fastening,
which I tried—when I returned into the room I fastened the catch, and I found that it required a very great effort on my part to push it back again when once it was properly closed—the force required to open that catch with a knife would, in my opinion, produce a mark on the edge of the knife—this knife has never been out of my possession—there are no marks at all on the edge of it.
Cross-examined. by MR. COOPER. Q. From whom did you get that knife first of all? A. It was brought, I believe, to my house—I gave instructions that as soon as it could be got from the police it was to be sent to me—I believe it was brought by Pearce, the lad in my employ—when I first tried this window it was fastened, it was down close to the sill—I only tried to force the knife between the sashes when the window was down—in trying that I made some marks myself—I did not alter the structure of the other marks—I tried on the left—I never used a chisel—it was the day after the trial that I tried this.
MR. WILLIAMS. Q. Did any one else try the same experiment besides yourself? A. Not while I was there.
FRANCIS THOMAS DOLMAN . I live at 63, Gloucester Crescent—on the night of the 30th August I retired to rest at half-past eleven, as near as I can remember—on that night I slept in the back room on the first floor—I have a garden at the back and in the front of my house, the front garden is where the prisoners are said to have been taken—I heard nothing at all that night—nobody slept on the ground floor or in the front of the house on that night—I first heard anything about this matter, as nearly as I can remember, at a little before five in the morning, from my servant—the servant woke me, and I came downstairs almost immediately afterwards—I went into the room where the window was and saw the two police constables, Hayes and Barry, and a policeman in uniform—they pointed out to me the marks on the sash, and showed me that the window was open—the window was open then—there were some slight cuts on the bottom of the middle rail of the sash—I know a carpenter of the name of Hearne—I was in the kitchen when somebody came in and brought this model (produced) with him, but I am not aware that he made it in my kitchen—my window has not been altered at all since—I remember Mr. Ivory coming to my house the day after the trial at the Middlesex Sessions—to the best of my belief I had not seen Barry and Hayes that day—Mr. Ivory went down into the kitchen, and, fastening the bolt of the window, tried with a table knife whether he could open it from the outside—he was not able to open the fastening from the outside—the hasp of the window goes stiffly—the entire height of the wall that the boys are alleged to have gone over is more than six feet to the top of the coping—it is six feet from the pavement from the outside—I think it is such a wall that a man, placing his hand on it, could leap over, because there is a little set-off in the brickwork out-side, a man stepping on that could get over—there is an entrance gate—I believe on the night in question that gate was bolted on the inside—a person might get out of the garden that way by pulling back the bolt.
Cross-examined by MR. COOPER. Q. The wall on the inside of the garden is not so high as the outside, is it? A. No, there are holes in the wall in which a person could stick his foot and get over—the window-sash does not move in the frame very stiffly—I was going out of town the next morning, after this—I am married—there was the usual packing up going on—one of the policemen, to the best of my recollection, pointed out one or two small chips of wood on the sill—I should say they must have been cut
off from what is called the meeting rail of the sash—they showed me a knife and a chisel—I don't remember any matches being shown to me—I think a person could have put the knife through if the window had not been properly fastened—I think a knife so inserted would leave such marks as I have described—I did not see the police use the knife to make an incision or cut at all—when I went into the kitchen they had not been there above two or three minutes.
COURT. Q. You know when they came in the house, do you? A. Yes; I believe the police had not been in above two or three minutes.
MR. WILLIAMS. Q. Do I understand you to say this, that the servant left the kitchen to come up to you? A. I don't know, she was alarmed by the ringing of the bell; immediately afterwards I heard a noise in the hall, and on going out I saw, I believe, Hayes, he came up one or two stairs to tell me of it—at the time the servant gave me the alarm they were ringing at the bell—they rang the bell at the outer gate.
COURT. Q. You don't know whether the window was fastened or not on that night? A. No, I do not.
MART ANN NORTHCOTE . I am servant to Mr. Dolman—on the morning of the 31st August I was upstairs, and heard the bell ring—I believe the front gate was bolted, but I could not say for certain—it was not locked, there is a bolt on the inside—I opened the door—Hayes went into the kitchen first—there are shutters to the kitchen window—they were shut when I got down into the kitchen—Barry came down behind Hayes—they went down before me into the kitchen, and I followed them—they were not doing anything when I got into the kitchen.
Cross-examined by MR. COOPER. Q. What did they do when you first got into the kitchen? the shuttere were closed you say? A. Yes, Hayes opened the shutters—I then saw that the window was open about two or three inches—I saw the marks on the window, there were the pieces of the sash on the window sill—two small pieces of shaving like—I saw a Mr. Thompson take a plan some time afterwards.
MR. WILLIAMS. Q. Mr. Thompson is the inspector of police? A. Yes—these pieces of shavings were on the outside.
COURT. Q. Were you up last on the night before? A. Yes, I believe this window was closed—I was very busy that night, so I might have made a mistake and could not say positively.
GEORGE ROWE . I am a carpenter and builder at 8, Rothwell Street, Primrose Hill—I went at the request of Mr. Ivory to 68, Gloucester Crescent—last Monday week, the 15th, I inspected the window sash in the front kitchen, and made this model of the sash with the cuts—Mr. Hearne was present when I inspected the window—this is a correct model of the window and the cuts—I made the cuts with a knife, they are on the left of the fastening from the outside, there are four I believe, they were made with a knife, any sharp-pointed knife would make them, a table knife would not probably, without bruising the other bar—I measured the wall—the height is five feet six inches from the outside—I did not measure the inside—it is less on the inside.
Cross-examined. by MR. COOPER. Q. A sharp-pointed knife, sharpened the day before, would be just the thing to make those marks would it not? A. Yes, any sharp-pointed knife.
Witnesses for the Defence.
JOSEPH PAYNE, ESQ . I am deputy-assistant judge at the Clerkenwell Sessions—I presided there when a case came on for trial, where two men named Pearce and Dye were tried for attempting to commit a burglary—I took down the evidence of the witnesses as they gave it—I have no note of Gregory's having said that he was served by the landlady at the "Stationers' Arms"—I have no note that he said anything of the kind.
LLEWELLYN HUGHES . I am the landlord of the "Stationers' Arms"—I remember the night of the 30th August—I did not see either Hayes or Barry in my house that night—I know Hayes—he has been on duty in the neighbourhood, and on the 20th August he was at my house—I was keeping my birthday; we had a few friends upstairs, and he came to see what was the matter—I had obtained permission—he did not insist on the guests going—Mrs. Hughes was at Ramsgate on the 30th August.
Cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH. Q. The person at the bar is Barry, do you know him? A. Yes, I have known him since—I did not know him on the 30th—it is not my habit to go to bed between eleven and twelve at night—I close my house at one—I stop up to close my house—I have not a very large business—we don't complain of want of custom in the evening—Hayes only just came in on the 20th, and stopped a minute or two—two barmaids, my wife, and myself serve in the bar in the evening—I have a bar parlour behind—I am occasionally there and occasionally in the bar during the evening—I am occasionally in the bar parlour with a friend or two, having my glass in the evening.
MR. GRIFFITHS. Q. Were you serving in the bar on the night of the 30th? A. I was in and out of the bar—if Barry and Hayes had been there I should think I should have seen them.
COURT. Q. What was the longest time you were away from the bar? A. I could not tell—I might have been away as long as a quarter of an hour or half an hour—I know Wright—I don't knew Osler and Grocer by name—I did not see them at my house that night—I know Osler and Wright.
ELIZABETH GIBBS . I am one of the barmaids at the "Stationers' Arms"—on the night of the 30th August I was serving in the bar the whole time—I know Barry and Hayes—they were not in the bar on that night at all—if they had been there I should have seen them.
Cross-examined. by MR. WILLIAMS. Q. Do you say you were in the bar during the whole of the night? A. Yes, I never left it—Miss Birch, the other barmaid, was in the bar besides myself—my mistress was at Rams-gate at that time—my master was there that night, he was in the bar parlour nearly all the evening—he was in and out—I am quite sure this was the night of the 30th August—I remember it because it was Margate races or Ramsgate races, and Mr. Hughes was talking of going down on the 29th, and on the 30th early in the morning, he did not go—I think Mr. Hughes first asked me if I remembered whether the constables were in our house on the 30th of August—I can't tell you how long after that it was that he asked me—it was about the time that this affair came out at first, before it was settled, I rather think, at Marylebone Police-court, before the police were charged at Marylebone, I think it was not after the trial of Dye and Pearce at the Middlesex Sessions—Mr. Hughes did not give me any reason for asking me—he named the constables Hayes and Barry—I had not known Barry before—I had seen Hayes before once or twice—I saw him once in the house, that was on the night of the 20th
—he only came in and asked a question and went away again—Barry I had not seen before—I had seen Hayes pass once or twice before, and he bowed as he passed the door—I did not know what his name was—I had learnt their names when my master spoke to me—I did not know their names on the 20th August—I saw Barry soon after that—on the 30th August I did not know Barry by sight, but it was said they were together, and if I had seen one I should have seen the other—I rather think the 30th was on a Thursday night—I don't know a person named Ivory. (Mr. Ivory came forward)—I don't recollect seeing that gentleman before—I think I saw him outside this morning.
Q. Did he not come to your public-house with the solicitor's clerk, and ask you as to whether the policemen had been in your house that night? A. I could not have been in the bar—I don't remember either of those gentlemen.
COURT. Q. When did you first know Barry by sight? A. I saw him in our house once, that was after the 30th August—Hayes came in on the 20th, it was Mr. Hughes's birthday—I don't remember having seen him drinking in our house before the 30th of August, or on the 30th—I only saw him once in our house on the 20th and passing the door—he was in uniform on the 20th—I know Mr. Wright—I don't remember seeing him at our house on the 30th.
EDWARD SCRIVEN (Police Sergeant 86). I have been eighteen years in the force—on the night of the 30th August I was on duty in Mornington Crescent, in the Mornington Road—it is called No. 3 beat, second section—I was on duty from ten o'clock on the 30th till six in the morning of the 31st—during that time I did not see any person taken along my beat in custody.
Q. Must you have seen if two constables had passed along with two persons in custody? A. They might have passed along without my seeing them—it would take me about half an hour to work my beat—I saw Hayes that night at a few minutes before twelve at the corner of the Mornington Road in Stanhope Street—he was in plain clothes, I can't describe exactly the dress—Stanhope Street is at both ends of the Mornington Road, one end is in Hampstead Road, and the other near Gloucester Gate—I saw Hayes at the end near Gloucester Crescent—he made some inquiries of me as to two persons, whom he described to me—he gave me a description of those persons—I did not the next morning see any persons answering that description.
Cross-examined. by MR. SLEIGH. Q. Let me understand where it was you say you saw Hayes, Mornington Road runs into Stanhope Street? A. Yes, it is all one line of street—at the end of Mornington Road Stan-hope Place leads to Mornington Crescent—it was at the corner of Stan-hope Place, leading into Mornington Road, that I saw Hayes—I did not appear as a witness in reference to what I have stated to-day when this man was charged with perjury at the police-court.
COURT. Q. Where you saw Hayes is at the further end from Gloucester Crescent? A. Yes, Stanhope Street and Stanhope Place adjoin—I should think it is nearly half a mile from where I met Hayes to Gloucester Crescent.
EDWARD SMALL (Policeman S 80). On the night of the 30th August I was on duty in Stanhope Street, Hampstead Road—about midnight, while I was going on my beat, two young men passed me in Stanhope Street on the left-hand side, walking quickly.
COURT. Q. Do you understand this plan? A. No, it was Stanhope Street, Cumberland Market, leading to the corner of Mornington Road—it was a little before twelve—Pearce and Dye were the two young men; they were alone.
MR. GRIFFITHS. Q. Shortly after that did you meet Hayes? A. I did; he made a communication to me, in consequence of which I went to the Albany Street station—it must have been about twelve when I got there—I went for Barry to come and assist Hayes—Barry accompanied me to Stanhope Street, on my beat, to where I had left Hayes—I saw Inspector Bendell at the station, and it was in consequence of a communication made to me by Bendell that Barry went with me.
Q. Did Hayes describe any persons to you when you first met him? A. I described them to him first—when I came back with Barry I left him by himself—he went on faster than me—I told him I should be at the top of the street—about six o'clock on the following morning, after I had come off my beat, I saw Pearce and Dye at the station-house—I then recognised them as the two boys I had seen on the previous night, and the boys I had described to Hayes.
Cross-examined. by MR. SLEIGH. Q. Does Stanhope Street form a right angle with Cumberland Market? A. It leads right across Edward Street—I met the boys halfway up Stanhope Street, about the middle of Stan-hope Street—it was between Rutland Street and Edward Street, and in Stanhope Street, that I met Hayes—I met him about three or four minutes after I had seen the boys, I should think—I knew Pearce and Dye personally at that time—I did not know their names at that time—I saw them in the cell at the station-house—it was not then that I ascertained their names for the first time—afterwards I heard from the others what their names were—I did not know their names—I did not speak to the young men I met in the street, neither did they speak to me—they came up behind me and passed me—I did not go to the police-court and give evidence on the charge—the lads were walking towards Rutland Street—if I was going to Eversholt Street I should not go that way—I know Granby Street—if they were to go along Granby Street they would not cross the Crescent—they could go that way to Eversholt Street.
COURT. Q. From which direction was Hayes coming? A. From Stanhope Place.
CLEMENT DAVEY . I reside at 48, Little Albany Street—I remember very well being in Park Street on the morning of the 31st August—I should think it was somewhere about a quarter past one in the morning—I saw four persons—Barry was one; he was on in front—I saw the back of him—I saw another man behind him—I don't exactly know his name—I should certainly know him if I saw him. (Hayes was brought to the bar)—that is one I saw last, the dark one—I saw two other men, but I did not know at the time that they were in custody—I did not know these were constables—they were in plain clothes they had hold of men—I should know one of those men I am sure.
COURT. Q. Just go round there in the court and see if you can see them. A. This is the gentleman that I saw, but he has had his hair cut since I saw him last (Dye)—I don't know his name—the other was a taller man than him—I don't think I could pick him out—this looks something like the man (Mr. Lewis's clerk)—I could not positively say.
MR. TURNER. Q. Can you tell us in what direction they were coming? A. I was in Park Street and I saw a little bit of confusion, I went across and
I saw them crossing Park Street, going down to Mornington Road—I am a stranger there—when I came over the road I asked Hayes what was the matter, and he pushed me and told me to mind my own business.
Q. How was it that you came to give evidence? A. It was on account of one of my men being locked up—I told the constable who took him about this affair—I did not think he was going to bring me here before you about it—I have been asked not to come here—at several places where I have worked they have said, "Don't go," and somebody downstairs said, "Don't go," that was all—I have not seen that person about the court—he did not give me any reason—I followed these men till I came to the railway bridge, and then I turned to the right, which runs right round into Augusta Street—that was my direct way home.
COURT. Q. Across the London and North-Western Railway? A. Yes, it is a little bridge—I don't know the name of the place.
Cross-examined. by MR. SLEIGH. Q. What night was this? A. It was on Thursday night or Friday morning; Thursday night some call it—I had no watch with me—I am quite sure it was past one, because I some-times work late—I sometimes work till two or three o'clock in the morning—I am the sole inventor of a new American polish, and I make that after my men have gone, so that they should not know about it, and I went out while the stuff was getting cool, in order to mix it—I was going to a Mr. Barrow, in Camden Town—I had not known either of the four persons previously—Barry did not have hold of the one I picked out—the other one had the one I picked out—I am a French polisher by trade and a cabinet repairer—I occasionally go out to benefits to assist people—I know Mr. Clark, a tallow chandler, of Albany Street—I did not have a conversation with one of his men the night before I saw these people—I know some of his men—I don't know them all—I don't often go out—I go for the benefit of people who have benefits—they are not always called "friendly leads"—they are not always "free and easy's"—I generally go to the "United Kingdom Men's" clubs—the "United Kingdom" is a kind of society, the men amalgamate together, and support each other—I attend occasionally at concerts for the benefit of unemployed men—they are held at different public-houses—I play three instruments, one is the banjo.
Q. When did anybody communicate with you as to coming to give evidence in this matter? A. Nobody communicated with me until I was summoned to attend at the Marylebone Police-court—a constable took one of my men into custody for robbing Mr. Mann of some soap—I said to him, "This is a shame for those young men to swear, as they did, against these constables"—Magett was the constable—he belongs to the S division—I can't tell you the day I had that conversation with him—I know it was on a Monday—there were several constables there in the police-yard at the time—it was after these young men were tried at the Middlesex Sessions—it was before Barry and Hayes were charged with perjury at the police-court, certainly—I went to Marylebone—I was not required—I stopped for two days, and I wish I had been at work instead—I had read in the papers the evidence the lads had given, and they tell a very great falsehood, and you can't deny it—of course I had read the evidence which Pearce and Dye had given before I received the summons—I read in the papers that Pearce swore he was not in the garden, and that there was no truth in the charge against him.
COURT. Q. What was the evidence that you read in the papers that you said they had sworn to? A. About my seeing them, about them being taken into custody—that was the only thing I was saying.
MR. SLEIGH. Q. You exclaimed what a shame it was those young lads Pearce and Dye had sworn what they had? A. Yes—that Pearce should say that they were taken into custody in Eversholt Street, and I know they passed me at a quarter past one at the top of Park Street, and that is at the top of Mornington Road—I did not hear that the constables were taken before the Magistrate on a charge of perjury before I was summoned to attend—some constable in the D division served the summons upon me—he was a stout man—I did not hear the case at the Marylebone Police-court—I was not allowed in court—I did not see these lads there—if I did I did not pay any attention—I have not seen either of them from that night when I say I saw them in custody until I saw them here to-day. Q. Have you seen either of them outside the court to-day, or was either of them pointed out to you? A. I think you ought to know better than to ask me such a question.
COURT. Q. Just answer the question? A. No—I have not had them pointed out to me, and you ought to know better than to ask a man in my position such a question.
MR. SLEIGH. Q. Then the boy you picked out you never saw from that night until you saw him in court here to-day? A. I never noticed him—I never notice anybody—I could pick him out of a hundred, because he had long hair, and he had it turned underneath, and he has had it cut since—neither of the boys were pointed out to me at the Marylebone Police-court.
MR. GRIFFITHS. Q. You say you read an account of the boys having given evidence at the Clerkenwell Sessions as against the police? A. Yes I did, and I told Mr. Magett of it, told him what I knew, and afterwards received a summons to appear at the police-court—I was ordered out of court.
COURT. Q. Did you go into the court first of all? A. I went to the door, and they would not let me in, they said the witnesses were ordered out of court.
EDWARD CHARLES DAVIS . I am a surveyor, and live at West Hendred, near Wantage, Berkshire—about half-past one o'clock on the morning of 31st August I was returning home, having come from Hammersmith by the ten o'clock train—I then resided at Kentish Town—when I got into the Mornington Road I saw some people coming down—I waited till I saw them pass me, and they turned out to be two constables, one of whom I knew, and two prisoners—I knew Hayes—I came out of Augusta Street, over the railway bridge, up northwards into Mornington Road, and, turning the corner, I saw them coming down from the north towards the south, from the "York and Albany"—I know Gloucester Crescent—it would be in the direction from Gloucester Crescent.
COURT. Q. Did you remain at the corner till they passed? A. No—I proceeded my nearest way home, which would be to Mornington Street, the next turning on the right—when I passed Mornington Street I halted in the road, and then distinctly saw the four persons pass—knowing one constable, and seeing he had hold of a prisoner, I concluded that the constable now before me, Barry, was another constable—I saw them pass, and I distinctly saw them go down that road, and I am enabled to say that they did not go over the bridge, but went towards Stanhope Street.
MR. GRIFFITHS. Q. Did you read an account of the trial of Pearce and Dye in the newspapers? A. I did—that was the first intimation I had after this date, and in consequence of that I went to the police-station and made a communication of what I had seen to the sergeant on duty.
Cross-examined. by MR. WILLIAMS. Q. Where is it you live now? A. I reside now at West Hendred, in Berkshire, about three miles from Wantage—I am stopping now in town—it is not my own house at West Hendred—Mr. Reeves is the real proprietor—before this I lived at No. 2, Mansfield Place—the underground train left Hammersmith at twelve o'clock, and I should say it arrived at Portland Road about twenty-five minutes past twelve o'clock, it may have been a minute or two under or over—I walked up Albany Street then with a fellow-passenger, and had a glass of ale and stopped until the house closed, till one o'clock—I should say it was as nearly as possible from twenty-five minutes to half-past one o'clock when I saw the two men in custody with the two policemen, four or five minutes elapsed from the first time I saw them till I turned off and left them—I went straight from Portland Street station to Albany Street, to a certain public-house with a fellow-passenger—it was some one I did not know—we went to the first public-house on the right—it was the nearest one that was open at that time—I believe that to be my nearest way home—I did not go straight home when I left the public house—I went on my nearest route home—I was not at the Middlesex Sessions when the boys were tried—distinctly I say I was not—I did not hear of it till the Saturday morning, when I read it in the papers, when Mr. Sleigh's remarks were reported, and about Osler and Wright—that was what drew my attention to it—I lived in this neighbourhood seven years before I left—I knew some of the police in the neighbourhood, several—I am myself very well known to the police, not particularly the police of the S division, more particularly the police of the Tcdivision, Kensington and Hammersmith, and that district, having been employed by the government as surveyor, in cases of this kind—I know several men connected with the S division—I know Hayes, to speak to, very well—I did not know him before he went into the force—I have only known him about a twelvemonth—I did not stop and talk to him on this night—I did not speak to him at all—I saw that they were proceeding quietly along—the prisoners were not resisting at the time they passed me, and, being late, I was wishing to get home, having business in the morning—I did not know Barry at that time—I do now—I do recognise him now—I knew Hayes very well indeed, nothing passed between us—my address now is, No. 104, Carlton Street, Kentish Town.
MR. GRIFFITHS. Q. You say you recognise the other policeman now; is this the man? A. Yes—the other man was Hayes, I knew Hayes, I know Barry—I recognise him as the man I saw on that night.
COURT. Q. In what way have you been employed by government? A. I was employed in the Acton murder case, and I have been employed by the county surveyor, Mr. Allen, and been paid by the Treasury.
WILLIAM BENDELL (Police Sergeant S 33). on 30th August I was the sergeant in charge at the Albany station—I remember Dye and Pearce being brought in by Hayes and Barry—I asked them what the charge was—the charge was being found in an enclosed garden in Gloucester Crescent, supposed for some unlawful purpose—that was written down in the charge-sheet—this is the charge-sheet—the prisoners heard the charge—after the charge had been gone into as far as was necessary it was read out to them from the charge-sheet by me as loud as I am now speaking:—I believe one of them, I think it was Dye, said, "We were not there"—he did not say where he was—Eversholt Street was mentioned by the other one, I think—I think it was in this way: Dye said, "We were not there," and the other one
said, "No, in Eversholt Street"—I believe those were the words made use of—a knife was not produced that I saw—I saw them searched—2s. 6d. in silver, 2d. in coppers, two keys, and a medal were found on Dye—on Pearce was found a duplicate, a purse, a key, a coin, a tobacco-box, and four bones—I did not see a knife taken from them—a pipe was taken from them—I did not see any matches—they came in, about twenty minutes to two.
Cross-examined. by MR. SLEIGH. Q. Is the place where you stand, the room or office, elevated from the floor some distance? A. No it is not, it is on a level with the room where the prisoners are placed—there is a window there, through which I spoke when they were first brought in, but I left that room and went down to where they stood when I took the charge—I merely asked them their names, and where they lived, and put that on a piece of paper, and then came round into the room—I have not that piece of paper here—I do not copy from that on to the charge-sheet—the prisoners are not searched before I come out of my little room—they are searched after the charge is taken, by the dock, in my presence—I was present when these men were searched and until they were locked up—during that time I did see something of a knife, after they had been searched, and after I had put down on the charge sheet the property mentioned there, Hayes said, "Here is a knife, which I found in the garden"—I did not see Hayes actually enter the station with his prisoner, but I saw them before they had walked two yards across—I did not then see anything of a knife—I suppose the lads had been in the station over five minutes before I heard Hayes say, "Here is a knife."
COURT. Q. After you had put down the charge, and after you had put down the property found on them? A. Yes.
MR. SLEIGH. Q. Then you had written down on this charge-sheet, as it appears now, before you had heard anything at all about the knife? A. Yes, the latter part of the charge, "Burglariously breaking and entering the above house," was written at a different time—I did not write it—the sergeant who succeeded me wrote it after they had gone, and examined the house and found the window had been forced—I left the station as soon as the prisoners were locked up, before two o'clock—I was not present when this was written—Sergeant Rowland is here, who wrote that portion of it—the address of the lads is written down here—it was written down immediately on their being brought in, and on my taking the charge—I did not hear any person come to the door and ask to be let in and ask what the lads were accused of—there is a yard between the entrance to the police-station and the road at the back, not in the front—these lads were brought in the back way—I should not know if any one knocked unless they knocked loud, but the door is not fastened—I never heard of any person coming and asking to see these lads, and asking what they were charged with—the man who was on duty at the door is here.
MR. COOPER. Q. Was anything said about 18 A, Bayham Street that night. A. No, not that I heard—Barry left the station that night at five minutes past two—Small came for him.
WILLIAM PEARCE (Policeman S 88). On the night of the 30th August I was at the door of the station when Hayes and Barry came in with the two men—I was just outside the station, near the outer door next to Albany Street—I did not see anything in Hayes' hand at the moment he entered the station, but when he placed the prisoner he had in the dock he showed
me a knife—it was in his right hand open—he said, "How should you like a bit of this?"—he said no more to me—Dye said, "That is my knife," and Pearce said, "Yes, I sharpened it for you"—he did not say when, at least I do not think so—Hayes said he found it in Gloucester Crescent in the garden—I did not see any woman with them when they came to the door—I have seen the girl Glue since—I did not see her there—she did not come to the door—before they were searched I saw this knife in Haye's hand.
Cross-examined. Q. Were you at the front door or back door of the station-house? A. The back door—there is a yard there—they came through the yard at the back door of the station into the station—I was present when the sergeant took the charge—I do not know who was in charge of the door while the charge was being taken down—there was no one properly in charge of it—it would not be locked—I cannot say if it was shut—they could open it, because there was a handle to it—I took charge of the prisoners as soon as they were placed in the dock—as soon as Hayes entered the room, and placed his prisoner in the dock, he drew my attention to a knife he had in his hand, and said, "How would you like a bit of this?"—it was momentarily after they came into the room, that the knife was produced—I did not see Sergeant Bendell take the charge—he had not time—Hayes stated the charge to the sergeant on duty—he had not time before he spoke to him to speak to me about the knife—the knife was produced before Sergeant Bendell wrote the charge on the sheet—he was in the office at the time that the knife was produced—Hayes was in plain clothes—I cannot answer whether he had an umbrella in his hand—I cannot say that he had not—I cannot say either one way or the other.
MR. COOPER. Q. Suppose a young girl had been anxious to get into the station, could she have turned the latch and have got in at once? A. Yes—no such person came.
ELLEN BIRCH . I am one of the barmaids at the "Stationers' Arms"—on the night of 30th August I was serving in the bar with Elizabeth Gibbs—I was there the whole evening—I know Hayes and Barry perfectly well—they were not in the "Stationers' Arms" at all on that night—neither of them spoke to me—I do not know a gentleman of the name of Osler—I know a person of the name of Wright—he was not there that night to my knowledge.
Cross-examined. Q. You were there the whole of the evening, were you? A. Yes—nobody else was serving in the bar besides myself and Miss Gibbs—Mr. Hughes was either in the bar or in the parlour.
Q. You say you know Hayes and Barry; do I understand you by that that you knew them at that time? A. I had seen them, I knew them by name—I am sure I did not leave the bar during the whole of the evening—there were a great many people there during the evening—it was on Thursday evening—I have not been spoken to at all about this matter—this is the first time I have appeared as a witness in the matter—I was requested to appear here on the day I had the subpoena—that was a week or two ago—I had no conversation with anybody about this matter—I do not remember who first broached the subject to me—I do not remember Mr. Hughes speaking to me about it.
COURT. Q. Were you asked whether you remembered anything about this night? A. Oh! on the morning the constable brought the subpoena.
MR. SLEIGH. Q. Am I to understand that until the constable brought the subpoena a week or two ago that you spoke to nobody and nobody
spoke to you about what occurred on 30th August? A. We spoke about it generally in the bar—Hayes and Barry were not in the habit of coming to our house—Hayes had been once before, that was on the occasion of Mr. Hughes's birthday—Barry had not been there before—he came in once before—the same night I believe it was—no, it was not the same night as Mr. Hughes's birthday, I forgot, I had seen him—when I had seen them previously they were in uniform—they were always in uniform—I only saw Hayes in uniform on that one occasion, on Mr. Hughes's birthday—I had seen Barry once, I believe—I am sure I saw him there once before the 30th—I cannot tell you whether it was a week, a month, or three months before—I have seen them both since 30th August—once last week—they came together in plain clothes—they did not ask me then whether I recollected their being there at the time of Mr. Hughes's birthday—they came with a constable to serve the subpoena—they did not say anything—they did not ask me any questions as to whether I remembered whether they were there or not on 30th August—Mr. Hughes was not there at the time—Miss Gibbs was—nothing was said to me by either of the men when they bought the subpoena—a constable brought me here tonight—I did not have a conversation with him about how the trial was going on—he did not say anything—he did not tell me the other young lady had been examined—he said Mr. Hughes had just gone in as he left—I do not remember these two gentlemen calling on me since the 30th August (Mr. Ivory and Mr. Lewis's clerk)—I do not remember any person calling on me and asking me whether I remembered whether two policemen, Hayes and Barry, were in my master's house on the night of the 30th August—I do not remember that question being put to me.
Q. Will you undertake to swear that two persons did not call and speak to you about this, and ask you whether you remembered anything about whether two police-constables had been in your house on the night of 30th August, and between twelve and one o'clock? A. Oh! that was a long time ago—I do not remember who it was—I remember two gentlemen calling and making that inquiry of me—I do not remember these two gentlemen—I said to them that I could not remember anything about it—I remember their asking me about two police-constables, and whether they were there on 30th August, and my answer was, "I don't remember anything about it," and I said to the gentlemen that I remembered the policemen in uniform being there on the night of my master's birthday—I did not add, "But I cannot remember any other night"—I did not know either Hayes or Barry by name.
MR. GRIFFITHS. Q. You say you have only seen Hayes on one occasion: what do you mean by that? A. On the night of Mr. Hughes's birthday—I mean on only one occasion in the house—I have seen him in the street—I know him—he was not there on the 30th—a constable came with Hayes and Barry to serve the subpoena—the constable did not say anything to me.
THOMAS ROWLAND (Policeman S 40). On 30th August I went to the Albany Police-station at a quarter to nine in the morning—I there saw this charge-sheet, No. 3963—there are two men, Dye and Pearce, charged here with being found in an enclosed garden—at the bottom of that there are some words in my handwriting—I wrote them from information I received on coming on duty—the premises were examined—I considered it a case of burglary—I afterwards read that part of the charge to the
prisoners, immediately after I had written it—they both heard it distinctly, most deeidedly—they made no remark—the female servant then signed the sheet—it was about ten o'clock in the morning I should think when I read tehsiec ca rhteedgtoprisos.
JAMES SMITH (Policeman S 150). I was on duty near Cumberland Market from ten o'clock p. m. on the 30th till six o'clock a. m. on the 31st—at half-past one I saw Barry and Hayes go along my beat with two young men in custody—that was in Cumberland Market—they were coming from the direction of Augusta Street—Hayes had got his prisoner by the collar with his left hand, and he had a knife in his right hand—it was a white-handled knife—I could not swear to it—it was open—no girl was following them—I did not see any one—I must have seen them if they had been there.
Cross-examined. by MR. SLEIGH. Q. Did you say anything to either of these men who had the prisoners in custody? A. No, I did not—they were crossing the market at the time—I was called on for a report of what I saw on that night by my inspector—it was about a fortnight ago I suppose, something like that—it might not be quite so much—previous to that I did not have any conversation with any person—I did not tell any person what I had seen until about a fortnight ago.
COURT. Q. You swear you never mentioned having seen this knife until you were called upon for a report? A. No—I had not talked to Hayes about it.
MR. COOPER. Q. You are a married man and live out? A. Yes—I have been four years and a half in the force.
DAVID SINCLAIR (Policeman S 66). I have been in the force one year and three months—on the morning of the 31st I was on duty on No. 1 beat, in the second section, in Albany Street—about half-past one I was in Stanhope Street, at the corner of Rutland Street, and saw Hayes and Barry—they had two young men in custody—they were coming in the direction from Mornington Road—Hayes was holding his prisoner by the collar with the left hand—he had a knife in his right hand—I did not notice what kind of a knife it was—he had a knife open in his hand, and I saw the blade of it.
Cross-examined. Q. Were you on the same side of the street or on the other side? A. The same side of the street they spoke to me first—Hayes held the knife in his hand and said, "What do you think of this?" I said, "What is the matter?" and Hayes made some remark; I do not remember the words—I first mentioned what I had seen about a week ago—that was the time I made the report of it—I did not say anything about it to anybody else before that.
COURT. Q. Were all the police on the beat called upon for a report? A. Yes, to make a report of anything they knew about that night—there was a sergeant there, besides the two constables and the two young men at that time—he was in the market—I did not see anybody following them—I did not see any woman.
GEORGE STANCOMBE (Police Sergeant S 13). I was on patrol duty on the night of 30th August—I was the acting inspector on that night, and I patrolled round the subdivision, round the different sections—I patrolled round the whole subdivision, Albany Street, Euston Square, and Chalk Farm—I came down Augusta Street into Cumberland Market about half-past one o'clock—at that time I saw Hayes and Barry, each of them had a person in custody—Hayes was on the right side of his prisoner, and had
the prisoner with his left hand—I saw a knife in his right hand—I did not take particular notice of it—it was open—no one was following them but myself—there was no woman there.
COURT. Q. Did you follow them any way? A. Yes, all the distance, from Cumberland Market to the station.
MR. TURNER. Q. Do you know Phoebe Glue, who has given evidence in this case? A. Yes; she is a prostitute—I never saw her at all that night.
Cross-examined. Q. What dress was Hayes wearing? A. I could not be certain—it was a dark dress—it was plain clothes—I am sure it was not a light dress—neither of them had a light dress—they were both dark dresses—there can be no mistake whatever about that.
COURT. Q. Had either of them a great coat on? A. No, I think not—I belive not—I will not be positive, but I think not—I am sure neither of them had a light coat on—they were both dark coats.
THOMAS GRAY (748 A). I was on duty in Kentish Town on the night of 30th August, and about half-past one on the 31st I reported myself at the station, where I saw Dye and Pearce in the dock—I did not hear them ask Hayes any question—I did not hear them ask what they were charged with—when Sergeant Bendell, the acting inspector, read over the charge the dark one, the little one (Pearce), said, "We never was near the place"—I think those were the words he made use of—I think the charge that Sergeant Bendell read over to them was, being found in a garden in Gloucester Crescent—Barry said he had had a smart run for one of them.
Cross-examined. by MR. WILLIAMS. Q. Where were you when Bendell read the charge? A. Standing in the charge-room—Bendell was at the, desk in the charge-room, where he read the charge, in the outer room—outside, in the charge-room—I saw him come out from the other, room—when I came in the prisoners were there.
JAMES CLEAL (Policeman 750 A). I reported myself at the Albany Street Station on the morning of 31st about half-past one—Gray came in at the same time—I saw Dye and Pearce in the dock—I heard Barry repeat the charge to Sergeant Bendell—the charge was, being found loitering in a garden in Gloucester Crescent—the prisoners could have heard that—I heard Sergeant Bendell afterwards read the charge over to the prisoners—I did not see any woman outside the door when I went in—I went in the back way in Albany Street—if any women had been there I should have seen them—I heard Barry say he had had a smart run after one of them.
Cross-examined. by MR. WILLIAMS. Q. Had you just come in from your duty? A. Yes—I had been on duty since six o'clock in the evening—after this I was going to bed—I reported myself to Sergeant Bendell—I live in the station—I knew Dye and Pearce then by name—I have told you all I heard and saw there as far as I can recollect—I saw a knife on the window ledge, but no remark was made about it.
MR. GRIFFITHS. Q. Was that knife shut or open? A. I believe it was open, as far as I can remember.
JAMES GATLAND (Policeman 746 A). On 31st August I came off duty about half-past one in the morning, and went to the Albany Street Police-station with Gray 748, Cleal 750, and Collins 743—I saw Dye and Pearce in the dock—Gray asked Hayes what those two lads in the dock were charged with—Hayes said, "Charged with being found in a garden in Gloucester Crescent"—he spoke loud enough for the prisoners to hear—I
heard the charge read over to them by Sergeant Bendell—I think it Was Pearce said, "I never was near the place"—I think those were the words—I went through the back entrance into the station-house—I did not see any woman there—I know Phoebe Glue—she was not there.
Cross-examined. by MR. WILLIAMS. Q. I suppose you three came in together? A. Yes—I saw a knife—nothing was said about it that I heard—I saw a knife on the window-sill of the inspector's office—I did not hear Barry say anything at all.
THOMAS BURKE (Policeman 122 S). I was on duty on the morning of 31st August in Gloucester Crescent, in uniform—I first saw Hayes and Barry that morning between four and five o'clock—in consequence of something they said to me, I went to 63, Gloucester Crescent—I made an examination of the garden in front of the house—I saw some footmarks there—I also went close to the area railings, and I could see the catch of the window back, and the window raised about two inches—the footmarks seemed fresh—after the examination the bell was rung by Hayes, the servant came down, and I went into the house with them—Hayes, Barry, the servant, and me went into the kitchen, and we were there when Mr. Dolman came in—the shutters were to—there were some slight marks on the sash of the window—I could not say how many footsteps there were in the garden—I did not observe them—in some of them you could see the heel of the boot, and could not see the remainder of the foot—we found this chisel which I produce, in the area—Hayes picked it up—it is a gauge—it may be used for boring holes, in a carpenter's trade, or such like—probably it would do to price anything up.
Cross-examined. by MR. SLEIGH. Q. You say that it was between four and five in the morning that you went to the garden? A. Yes—we went into the garden before the bell was rung—we got in by the gate in front, leading in from the public footpath—the gate was open—we had to undo the bolt by turning it with the hand—the handle is on the outside—it is a wooden gate—by turning the handle we were able to open it and walk in—I first saw Hayes and Barry just outside the garden—as near as I can judge it was about twenty minutes or half-past four at that time; it was certainly after four o'clock—we were perhaps ten minutes or a quarter of an hour in the garden before we rang the bell—I can't say which bell Hayes rung—the gate I spoke of is in the front of the house—it was the bell at the hall door that he rung—I did not go into the area—Hayes did——no person but Hayes went into the area in which this window-sash was—I was standing close to the area railings—Barry was in the garden—Hayes remained in the area about a couple of minutes.
MR. GRIFFITHS. Q. Could you see what Hayes was doing while he was in the area? A. Yes—he did not break open the window.
CORNELIUS COX (Police Inspector). On the morning of the 31st August, about half-past nine, I, in company with some other police officers, went to examine the garden and kitchen-window of 63, Gloucester Crescent—that was in the presence of Mr. Dolman—some marks were found at the lower part of the top sash—Sergeant Mason found two lucifer matches, which had been lit, in the area—they appeared to me as if they had been lit lately.
Cross-examined. Q. Did you take any particular notice of the door of the house? A. No—I believe there is a bell outside the gate—there is also a door—you go through the gate, through a bit of garden, and up to the door—I am not aware that there is a bell at the door of the house.
JAMES MASON (Police Sergeant S 25). On the morning of the 31st August I examined the premises, 63, Gloucester Crescent—I found marks on the window-sill—it was a little before ten in the morning, before the prisoners went to the court—I picked up from the area the remains of two matches, which had been lighted; and on the window-sill I found a very small piece of shaving, lying just outside—I should say the matches had been placed there very recently—I should say they had been there only a few hours—the black on them was quite fresh—after the trial at the Middlesex Sessions I took Hayes and Barry to the "Stationers' Arms," by order of the Superintendent, to be recognised—Ellen Burch saw them, and Mrs. Hughes—Mr. Hughes was not at home at the time, but he saw them afterwards.
COURT. Q. By order of your Superintendent you took them there, to give these parties an opportunity of identifying them? A. Yes.
Cross-examined. by MR. SLEIGH. The trial was on the 28th September, was it not? A. don't recollect the date—it was after the trial that I took them to the "Stationers' Arms," I think the next day—it was in the evening, between seven and eight o'clock—there was some conversation—I asked the young woman her name, and also asked her if she recollected either of the men who were then present being there on the night of the 20th August, and she said no, she did not recollect them—she said, "I don't think either of the men were here, I don't recollect them."
Q. Did she say, "I cannot say whether they were or not, I don't remember?" A. I don't remember her making use of the word "cannot" at all—she said, "I don't recollect their being here"—I have a memorandum of what took place in my pocket-book—I took her name, and what was said—this is it (produced).
COURT. Q. Are you sure that you took down what she said? A. I believe I took down her words—this is the memorandum I made at the time: "I was in the bar of the 'Stationers' Arms' until it closed, and did not see either of the men, Barry or Hayes (both present), or Magett"—I think it must have been on the Monday that we went to the "Stationers' Arms"—I am not quite sure, not later than that—the barmaid did not tell me that any person or persons had already been there to make the same inquiry of her—I don't recollect her saying a word about any one having called—I believe I was the first that had called—I cannot tell that.
JAMES COLLINS (Policeman A 743). I went on duty at ten o'clock on the 30th August, and came off at half-past one on the 31st—I was last on duty at the corner of Harrington Square, by Bedford Street—I was on duty in Eversholt Street that night as I was walking round my beat—I was there about half-past ten the first time; it takes me about a quarter of an hour or twenty minutes to walk my beat—I was in Eversholt Street about one o'clock the last time—I did not see anything of Barry or Hayes in Eversholt Street, or of Dye or Pearce—I never saw any disturbance there while I was there—when I left my beat at half-past one I went straight down Seymour Street, and up Bedford Street—a constable named Weaver took my place when I came off duty—when I got to the station I found Dye and Pearce in the dock—I did not meet them anywhere on the road.
Cross-examined. by MR. SLEIGH. Q. I see the street in a direct line to Eversholt Street is Upper Seymour Street, is that the street you went down? A. Eversholt Street joins Seymour Street—I went along until I came to Drummond Street, and went up Bedford Street into Ampthill Square, and that way down to the station—our time that night to be
at the station was half-past one—I arrived there about that time, and at that time these lads were in custody—they were in the dock—the inspector was taking the charge—I saw him writing—three or four of us came in together, Gray, and Cleal, and Gatland—four came in together from duty—they were waiting at the back gates when I came up—they had arrived before me at the back gates.
JAMES WEAVER (Policeman 82 S). On the morning of 31st August I was on duty in Eversholt Street—I went on duty about a quarter past one—I succeeded Collins on that beat—I have a reason for remembering this particular night—it was the only night I was on the beat—I did not see Pearce or Dye there—I did not see Hayes or Barry there—I went on duty in Lidlington Place, and got to Eversholt Street about a quarter past one—I saw the constables Hodgkinson and Geddings in plain clothes in Ampthill Square.
Cross-examined. Q. Who was it your duty to relieve? A. The last witness Collins—I commenced duty at leu o'clock that night—my duty would expire at six o'clock in the morning—my beat was Eversholt Street, not quite so much as a quarter of a mile each way—I did not carry a watch with me.
COURT. Q. How long did it take you to go your rounds? A. About twenty minutes.
JOHN GEDDINGS (Policeman). On the night of 30th August there were to have been four men sent out in plain clothes from the station—Hodgkinson was my mate on that occasion—we were to go to the first and fourth sections—I knew that Hayes and Barry had the second and third—we were sent out in plain clothes about this time because there had been so many robberies in different parts of the division—I believe there had been robberies about Gloucester Crescent—we had a boundary—the boundary which divided me and my partner from Hayes and Barry was the bottom of Eversholt Street and Mornington Crescent—Hayes and Barry would not have a right to come on our section, and we should have no right to go on theirs—I went on duty that night at twelve o'clock, and kept on duty till six—during that time I was in Eversholt Street and about there—I did not see either Barry or Hayes—I never once saw them during the night—I remember Small coming to the station—at that time he gave a description of two men, which enabled me to find them in the cells—we had four in the cells at that time, one in each cell.
Cross-examined. by MR. WELLIAMS. Q. Did you go down to see them that morning? A. At six o'clock in the morning—I was coming off duty, the cell door was open, and I went down and looked at them—when I went in to be discharged I heard that two men had been brought in, and out of curiosity I went to see them—I did not see Hayes at all that night—I thought Barry was out that night—our time was twelve o'clock—he would leave the station about then.
MR. COOPER. Q. Did you see Dye's hair at that time? A. I did not—I went by the clothes he had on.
CHARLES HODGKINSON (Policeman A 734). I was one of those chosen with Geddings to go on duty in plain clothes on the night of 30th August—we started out together about twelve o'clock—we patrolled and looked. about together for six hours—during all that time I did not once see Hayes or Barry—we were about Ampthill Square and Eversholt Street—I never saw either of them.
Cross-examined. by MR. WILLIAMS. Q. How long does it take you to go
round your section? A. It might take me four hours, perhaps two—the part that I was patrolling that night I should fancy took me at different times half an hour, three-quarters of an hour, an hour, or an hour and a half to go round, that is, I should stop at different intervals, when I was in plain clothes.
MR. COOPER. Q. You can go where you like I believe in plain clothes in your own section? A. Yes.
MICHAEL HEATH (Policeman Y 305). I recollect the 30th August, my beat was near Eversholt Street—I was on duty from ten at night till six in the morning—every quarter of an hour I had to cross Eversholt Street—I could see it from the end of my beat—I did not see Hayes or Barry that night—I did not see four men going along together—not any, not of any sort.
SAMUEL WINTERMAN (Policeman S 104). I remember the 30th August my beat was in Eversholt Street and Lidlington Place—it included Eversholt Street—my hours were from ten till six—during that time I did not see four men together, or Hayes or Barry—no two men with two others in custody.
Cross-examined. by MR. WILLIAMS. Q. Did you go the length of Ever-sholt Street or cross it? A. The length of it—it took me twenty-five minutes to go round the whole of my beat, not more than that.
COURT. Q. You would walk all along Eversholt Street every twenty-five minutes? A. Yes.
MATTHEW HAYES . I remember the 30th August—I did not go that night at all at the "Stationers' Arms"—I was never in there that night—I am a married man; and live at 58, Arlington Square—that is adjacent to Mornington Crescent—I left my house that night somewhere about ten minutes to twelve—I have to report myself at the station at twelve o'clock—on coming out I came down Arlington Street into Mornington Crescent, through Crescent Place, into Stanhope Street, to the corner of Mornington Road—I saw two men standing at the corner of Mornington Road by the railway arch—Stanhope Street and Mornington Road join—I passed the two men, and waited till the constable on the beat came up to me—that was Small—it was a very few minutes before he came up—something passed between us—he gave me a description of these two men—from what I said to him, he went to the station for my companion Barry—Barry came to me—I might have moved a little from the spot—he met me about half-way between the two bridges—on meeting we followed these two men—I pointed them out to Barry—they were not in sight then—we followed them up Mornington Road into Park Street—that is about 200 yards from Smith's, the "Camden Stores;" 200 or 300 yards, more than 100 yards—they crossed over to Gloucester Crescent, where we lost sight of them—Barry and I then stood at the corner of Gloucester Crescent, to see if we could see anything of them—this was somewhere about one, I could not speak exactly—I said something to Barry—I looked on one side of Gloucester Crescent, and Barry the other—in coming by 63 I heard a sort of scramble in the garden—I looked over the wall, and I saw two men there—I sang out to Barry, "Here they are"—I put my foot on the ridge of the wall, and leaped over the wall in that manner—I caught hold of Dye in the garden—at the same time the other man ran to the other end of the garden, and got over the wall—I took hold of Dye, and saw something lying on the ground beside him—I picked it up—it was a knife open—at that time the other prisoner was brought back by Barry—we then
took them to the station—I met one or two persons going along—I met a man first of all at the corner of the Mornington Road, in Park Street—he asked me a question, and I pushed him away—I saw one or two more, I cannot say how many—I know one that I pushed away—I remember Mornington Street—there was a man standing there, and previously to that I saw a constable at the corner of Stanhope Street—that was King, I think his name is—I took Dye to the station, with my left hand holding him by the collar of his coat, and the knife in my right hand, open as I found it—I took it to the station open—I saw the constable Pearce—I met Sinclair in Stanhope Street before that—we saw the sergeant in Cumberland Market, Stanscombe—we also saw a constable, 150 S, at the corner of Munster Street, Smith, I think—nobody else—during this time we were not followed by a man or woman—I know Glue—she was not near us or following us—Pearce (the constable) did not let us into the station—I saw him when I went in—he saw the knife—I did not take the knife out of Dye's pocket when he was searched—during that night I was never once in Eversholt Street or near it—Barry was not with me in Eversholt Street—it was about twenty minutes past twelve when Barry joined me—Barry, I believe, in searching one of the prisoners, found some matches—I saw matches produced by Barry.
Cross-examined. by MR. SLEIGH. Q. You carried the knife open in your hand all the way, did you? A. I did—I did not know at the time who the man was I pushed away—I did not violently push him away—I merely pushed him away for interfering with us with my shoulder—I know Albany Street—I do not know that is a more direct route to the station—I should come the same road again—I. went down Mornington Street through Stanhope Street—we did cross one bridge going to Stanhope Street—we then went round by Munster Street, across Cumberland Market, into Little Albany Street—I do not know that that is the shortest way—I did not say it was the shortest—I believed it was the shortest way when I took the prisoners—I know the neighbourhood well—I had no particular reason for going that way, no more than I thought it was a more direct road, except this, that if we should require assistance we should meet more constables on that road than we should in Albany Street—I should say the wall of the house is about four feet and a half high, or it may be more—I brought Dye out by the gate—I have been in the police force very nearly three years—previously to that I was a clerk at Davis's Wharf in Tooley Street—Mr. Curling was the master of it—from there I went for a short time to a wharf next to it—I had some words with the superintendent, and I left myself—I was not discharged—we were slack at the time, and I was up in the high floor sitting down, and Mr. Haydon got busy and required us to go and truck some goods, and I would not do so, being a clerk—he never complained of me for drunkenness, not to me—there was no complaint made by any one in the establishment of my being drunk—previously to being employed by Mr. Curling I was at Hibernia Wharf—I don't know exactly how long—I left Mr. Scovell's after the fire, and I was recommended by him to West Kent Wharf—I went from there to Hibernia Wharf—I cannot say to the date—they have bacon at that wharf—I was at one time suspended for a week when I was there—that was for being absent without leave in the day time.
Q. After you were reinstated was a complaint made about you about five bales of bacon? A. Yes—there were five bales of bacon short—I was delivery foreman of goods in one part of the cellar—there were also
other delivery foremen—one of them has been convicted since of felony—I had several books under my control—the delivery book amongst others.
Q. Did they complain, rightly or wrongly, of one of the counter cheques having been torn out of the delivery-book, and that it was not to be found, and ask you to account for it? A. No such thing—there was a complaint made of an old cheque-book being torn, but not the cheque-book that was in use—I was suspended, I was not dismissed from there—I was never reinstated, because I did not go back there—I was not dismissed, I was suspended for inquiries to be made about the things—I did return—I was not reinstated in my place—I went into business for myself in a small way—I did not refer to the people at Hibernia Wharf when I went to Davis's because they knew where I had been—my character along the waterside was sufficient—I lived at Charles Street, Hatton Garden, until I joined the police force—shortly before that I lived at George Street, Bermondsey—that was when I was at Davis's Wharf—I don't know the dates—I was for some time without any settled employment, I don't know how long—my superiors can tell you whether I have been reported while I have been in the police—I have been reported three times—I think the last time was something like eight months ago, I don't know exactly—I think it was for being inside a house, talking to a party, on my beat—I was reported by the sergeant—I was on duty—I was called to a house where some party had given some dresses to be made, and the other party refused to give the dresses up; and during the time I was there the sergeant saw me, and asked me what I was doing; I told him, and that was the report—the other two occasions were for not working my beat, for being too long working my beat—some neglect of duty; nothing more—that was when I first joined the service—I was never suspended for a week while in the police force—I was never charged with committing an assault upon some person while I was in the police—I know the Potts'—they are well known—I was never charged with an assault upon a person of that name—I was never reported for anything of that kind—we both received the money for the expenses of the witnesses in reference to this prosecution—I received it—I did not give to Mr. Foulcher the particulars of the expenses of the various witnesses, the witnesses all gave them themselves—I received from the officer who pays on behalf of the county the expenses due to the female Northcote—I don't remember the sum I received.
Q. Look at that paper (produced), there is your own signature? A. I did receive a guinea—I signed for my own amount there—I received other moneys for the other witnesses—I received one guinea for Northcote—I paid her 10s. 6d. for three days—I did not receive altogether 6l. 3s. 2d.—I don't know exactly the amount—what is there I have received?
Q. How came it to pass that you paid Northcote only 10s. 6d.? A. I made a mistake in the money—when I took the money Mr. Sleigh asked Judge Payne to commit me for perjury, and I was so disturbed in my mind that I don't know in what way I gave the money—I have discovered since that I made a mistake—I have not got the balance—I have given the money in some way wrong—through her being there only three days I paid her three days—she was there only three days—I have spoken about it since to my superiors—I can't say exactly when that was.
COURT. Q. Who have you spoken to? A. Inspector Thompson—I told him of it the moment I found it out.
MR. SLEIGH. Q. Tell me when you told him anything about it?
A. Two or three days ago—I can't say exactly—I was not aware that before that Mr. Lewis, the solicitor to the prosecution, had discovered that this girl had only received 10s. 6d., and had told Thompson of it—Mr. Thompson did not tell me so—I told Mr. Thompson of it—I have pledged my oath to that—I never saw that paper or had it in my possession after that—I came to think it over, and I found I had not given the servant enough for six days—she was there only three days, but she was at the police-court—the officer of the court asked me how many days they had been there—I said six days, and I made him alter some, as he was giving them too much—this signature, "Northcote," is in her own writing—she signed that the night before she went away—I believe I gave her the pen to write with, but I don't think I saw her write it.
Q. But this girl's signature here is "cote," and her name is "cutt;" I ask you, upon your oath, did you not write that name yourself? A. No, I did not—it is my duty to state to the inspector all I find on a prisoner, and he puts it on the charge-sheet—I did not find any matches, I saw them found—I did not tell the inspector that I saw them found—I don't know exactly the time I left the station after I took these persons there—when I left the station I went straight to Gloucester Crescent—it was somewhere about three o'clock when we got back to the garden—I can't say whether it was later than three—the man on the beat was with me, Burke, before I went back to examine the place—I can't exactly say the time—it might have been after three, or it might be a little before three—it was not four—we got into the garden by the gate—we examined the place with the assistance of the other constable in uniform and his lamp—we did not ring the bell or make any alarm at the time we took these lads into custody—we were not more than a few minutes in the garden before we rang the bell, but it was about twenty minutes before we were answered—the bell that we rang was outside the gate.
MR. COOPER. Q. My learned friend speaks of five bales of bacon being lost, did you steal that bacon? A. No—I did not take the cheque out of the old book, and was never accused of it.
THOMAS CREE . I am clerk to the Treasurer of the County of Middlesex—I remember the witnesses coming down to be paid by me after this trial—Hayes brought the expenses in to me the next morning—Northcote is charged for six days—Hayes told me that they had allowed them all six days in the Clerk of the Peace Office, and he had taken them back to be altered—they were all charged six days.
COURT. Q. They were all altered but hers? A. Yes.
HERBERT KING (Policeman 715 A). I was on duty in Mornington Road on the morning of the 31st August—about three parts of the Mornington Road is on my beat—I went on at ten o'clock on the 30th, and came off at six o'clock on the morning of the 31st—I saw Hayes and Barry that morning, with some prisoners in custody, passing by the "Edinburgh Castle" public-house, in the Mornington Road, that faces Stanhope Street and Gloucester Gate—that might have been between one and half-past—I cannot say to a few minutes—they were coming from the top of Park Street, going towards the police-station—there was some man some few yards behind following.
Cross-examined. by MR. WILLIAMS. Q. Do you know how Hayes and Barry were dressed? A. They were dressed in dark clothes, both of them.
ten o'clock at night, and came off at six in the morning—I did not see Hayes or Barry that night—I did not go near Eversholt Street at all.
SERGEANT BENDELL (re-examined). I left the station-house just before two o'clock—Hayes and Barry left before me—they went out just before I did. NOT GUILTY .
MR. BESLEY conducted the Prosecution.
GUILTY .*— Confined Two Years .
MR. COLLINS conducted the Prosecution, and MR. RIBTON the Defence. NOT GUILTY .
MR. PATER conducted the Prosecution, and MR. LEWIS the Defence.
GUILTY .— Confined Eighteen Months .
The following prisoners PLEADED GUILTY before Mr. Justice Mellor on Thursday:—
939. HENRY SMITH (27), to a burglary in the dwelling-house of Charles Slocomb, and stealing two coats and other articles, his property, after a previous conviction.— Seven Years' Penal Servitude . [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]
940. GEORGE EVANS (25) and WILLIAM LENNARD (22), to a burglary in the dwellinghouse of William Earl, and stealing five spoons and other goods, his property. EVANS— Confined Twelve Months .—LENNARD**—. Confined Eighteen Months [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]
FOURTH COURT.—Thursday, October 25th, 1866.
Before Robert Malcolm Kerr, Esq.
MR. LANGFORD conducted the Prosecution.
WILLIAM SYMINGTON . I am a commission agent, of No. 8, Little Distaff Lane—these nine rolls of crape are the property of Messrs. Kay and Richardson, of Manchester, for whom I am agent—they were in my possession on Friday morning, the 21st September—I can recognise them by prirate marks—the prisoners had no authority from me to have the goods—I never saw them before—I missed ten rolls, but there are only nine here.
JOHN NEWLING . I am a traveller, at 13, Milk Street—on Saturday, the 22nd of September, about aquarter past ten, as I was crossing Westbourne Grove to Paddington Green, I saw the prisoners with these nine rolls of crape in their possession, and, knowing that to be a very large stock for any one in that neighbourhood, it attracted my attention—one was carrying five pieces, and the other four—I followed them, they went into a wardrobe
shop in Salisbury Street, and came out again with the parcels—I called a policeman, who took them into custody.
ALBERT HAMMET (Policeman 203 D). On Saturday morning, the 23rd September, I met the last witness, and we followed the prisoners—I asked them how they could account for the possession of this crape, William Moore said he had receded it from a Mr. Williams, in Praed Street, and he was going to take it to 73, Cannon Street, City—I asked him if he worked for Mr. Williams, he said he did not, but that he was passing through Praed Street, and Mr. Williams had asked him to take it to 73, Cannon Street—I told them I was not satisfied with that account, and I took them into custody.
The Prisoners' Statements before the Magistrate:—WILLIAM MOORE, "I did not know it was stolen; my brother knows nothing about it." JAMES MOORE, "I had nothing to do with it at all."
William Moore's Defence. It is just the reverse to what the constable has stated, for, instead of my saying I had it from Praed Street, I told him I was going to take it to Mr. Williams, of Praed Street I had been to see Mr. Morgan, a man who executes commissions on horses, in Farringdon Street I met him in Cannon Street, and he asked me take the parcels to Mr. Williams. I met my brother at the corner of Tottenham Court Road, where he gets his living by selling newspapers, and he went with me; he knows nothing of it, and I had no knowledge whatever of its having been stolen. NOT GUILTY .
MR. DALY conducted the Prosecution.
JOHN WHITING (Policeman 99 F). About half-past five on the morning of the 4th October I saw the prisoner in Tower Street, Seven Dials—he was carrying this bundle (produced) on his shoulder—I asked him what he had got, he made no answer and walked on, I asked him again and he made no answer, I told him I should take him to the station, and he then said he had found it—I took him to the station.
BETTY HORSMAN . I am a single woman, and live at 9, Clipstone Street—I keep a public-house—these articles produced are mine—I saw them safe in my house at eleven o'clock on the night previous—I missed them on the morning of the 4th—they were kept in my bar-parlour—the window of the bar-parlour, which was fastened when I went to bed, I found open on the following morning.
Prisoner's Defence. I was proceeding to my lodgings a little after five on the morning of the 4th October, when I saw a cab at the corner of St. Andrew's Street, Seven Dials. The cabman beckoned me and said, "Do you want to earn sixpence?" I said, "Yes." He said, "Take this into Tower Street, and I will meet you there and give you. the sixpence." I took the things on my shoulder, and as I was going along was stopped by the constable. I could not give him any description of the man, so I told him I had found them. The woman said at the police-court that she had lost other things.
meerschaum pipes, a mustard pot, a silver spoon, six plated teaspoons, one plated gravy spoon, one table spoon, and a slouch hat.
NOT GUILTY .
MR. WOOD conducted the Prosecution.
ELIZABETH MARY BOWLER . On the evening of the 2nd October I was on a visit at Mr. Ellis's, Richmond Road Islington—the place was all safe when we went to bed—at half-past four in the morning we found it open—I was awoke by a scream—I got up—the prisoner was in Mr. Bieswerk's room.
ALFRED BIESWERK . On the night of the 2nd October I slept in the front bedroom of Mr. Ellis's house—I went to bed about half-past eleven—I noticed that the back parlour window was then shut—we all went to bed at the same time—I shut my bedroom door, but did not lock it—about half-past four I was awoke by a noise caused by some one opening the drawers in my room—I saw some one moving about—I got out of bed and struck a light—it was the prisoner—when he saw me get out of bed he was so frightened that he screamed—he stood quite still and seemed to lose all self-possession—he had no boots on—at that time some one came into my room and asked what was the matter, and called "Police!"—I locked myself in with the prisoner until the police came, which was about two or three minutes—I let the police in, and when the prisoner saw him he took a knife of mine off the drawers and brandished it about as if he were going to stab him—I gave an alarm to the policeman, and he wrested the knife from him.
WILLIAM ELLIS, JUNIOR .—I am the son of the owner of the house—on the morning in question I heard the scream—I got up and heard a strange voice talking in Mr. Bieswerk's room—I went downstairs, opened the front door, and a policeman came running in—I did not get home the previous night until the others had gone to bed—I shut the front door—after the prisoner was taken into custody I found the back parlour window open and three writing desks put outside—they had previously been in the parlour—there was also a pair of steps in the garden.
EDWARD FITZGERALD (Policeman 45 Y). I first noticed the prisoner about four o'clock on the morning in question in company with another man, and, knowing him to be a thief, I followed them into the Hemingford Road, but lost sight of them close to the prosecutor's house—I waited about twenty minutes and then I heard a scream—some one opened the door, I went upstairs and saw the prisoner in Mr. Bieswerk's room—he had this dagger in his hand, which I wrested from him—he had no boots on, they were afterwards found by Mr. Ellis in the garden—I found three writing desks, a quantity of papers, and other things in the yard—the entrance had been effected through the back parlour window by a small step-ladder—I examined other parts of the house, but they were all safe.
GUILTY .** The prisoner PLEADED GUILTY to a previous conviction of felony.— Ten Years' Penal Servitude .
FOURTH COURT.—Friday, 26th October, 1866.
Before Robert Malcolm Kerr, Esq.
Confined Eighteen Months .
NOT GUILTY .
MR. COOPER conducted the Prosecution.
WILLIAM ACKRELL (Police Sergeant 15 F). On 29th September, about eight o'clock, I went to No. 5, Parker Street, and found the prisoners in bed together—I told them I came for some pictures—Knight said, "What pictures?"—I said, "There was a burglary committed a week or two ago at the corner of Castle Alley, and I shall take you in custody for it"—he said, "All right, it will take you all your time to settle me"—I searched, and on the mantelpiece found these two pictures—Knight said, "They were left here, and I know nothing about them"—I found twenty-four pawn tickets in the room.
Knight. Q. You know the pictures. Did not you say that you knew they had been there some time? A. No—Brannan did not tell me that she bought them—I was there when the other officer found the pawn tickets close to the table under a bonnet.
Brannan. I bought the pictures of a man in the street, and had them there two weeks.
COURT. Q. Whose house is it? A. I do not know, but the prisoners live there—five or six persons live there—the neighbourhood is pretty generally inhabited by thieves and others—these pictures were publicly on the mantelpiece, not concealed.
THOMAS WARREN . I am a furniture dealer, of No. 6, Broker's Alley, Drury Lane—on the night of 6th September I went to bed at a little before eleven o'clock, having seen the shop and the doors safe—I was called up about twenty minutes past eleven o'clock, and found the shutter bar sprung, the shutters taken down, and the window broken—I missed these pictures, value 17s., from the window—I have had one of them ten years.
JOHN DOWDELL (Policeman 173 F). On 29th September I went with Sergeant Ackrell, searched the prisoners' room, and found twenty-four duplicates, some of them were in bonnet boxes—Brannan said, "All right, they all belong to me, it is my property."
Knight. Q. Were we in bed? Yes—the big picture was hanging up as pictures should.
THE COURT considered that there was no evidence against the prisoners.
NOT GUILTY .
948. FRANCES KNIGHT and MARY BRANNAN were again indicted for stealing two coats, two pairs of boots, three pounds of cigars, and five bottles of wine of George Hope Mason, upon which no evidence was offered.. NOT GUILTY
MR. SLEIGH conducted the Prosecution.
JOSEPH SHEPHARD . I am a butcher, of No. 5, Jubilee Place, Stepney, and supply the Vestry of Mile End with meat—on 2nd September the prisoner came to me about half-past nine o'clock in the morning, and asked for two pounds of rump steak—I said that I had not any rump steak, but I had a good beef steak—he said, "That will do"—I weighed it, placed it on the counter, and he produced a paper, and said, "From Mr. Thomson"—I looked at it, and said, "This is not from Mr. Thompson"—he said, "He gave it to me"—I said, "You will not have it with this order"—he was about to make off with the meat, but I reached over the counter and laid hold of him—he said that it would not make any difference to me, I should get paid for it—I said, "You will not have it with that order, you must go with me to Mr. Thompson's"—I went with him to Mr. Thompson's, and while the order was gone up the prisoner said, "I did wrong in saying that Dr. Thompson gave it to me; a man down at the Docks gave it to me"—Mr. Thompson said that he did not give it to him, and gave him in charge.
Prisoner. Q. Did you say to me, "Shall I take you to Mr. Thompson, or shall I send you about your business?" A. Yes—you said you would not go unless you had the meat, and I said, "Then you must go to Dr. Thompson's," and we went.
SAMUEL THOMPSON . I am a surgeon, of 76, Mile End Road—I am surgeon to the Vestry of Mile End—I had power from them during cholera time to give orders for meat—I did not give the prisoner this order—it is not in my writiug—I never gave him an order for meat.
Prisoner. Q. Do you know a person named Slater? A. Yes—I attended him for choleraic diarrhoea, and gave him an order for meat—I never saw you before the 20th September—I know nothing of Slater's character—he has bought birds for me, a thrush and a blackbird, for which he charged me 6s. or 8s.—I was at his house when I gave the first order—I do not think I attended his wife—he did not represent his daughter to be ill, only himself—when I got to his house he was upstairs, in the first floor back—I asked him the general questions that were necessary—I took him at his word that he was suffering—I think there was something about his child being ill, but I attend hundreds of persons.
COURT. Q. Did you give Slater an order for meat at the time that the birds were bought? A. I cannot answer positively.
CHRISTOPHER GIBBS (Policeman K 212). On the 20th September I was called into Mr. Thompson's house, and the prisoner was given into my charge—I asked him how he came to do it—he said he had the order given to him, and the man who gave it to him was waiting at the corner—I said, "What corner?"—he said, "Just up the street"—I said, "Do you think he is there now?"—he said, "Yes"—I asked him the man's name—he said, "Slater"—I asked him where he lived—he said, "It is a roadturning into another," but he could not tell me the name of it—he told me where he himself lived—I went there and found it was correct—I then
walked with him to the corner where he said the man was waiting for him—he looked up and down the street, but there was no one—I said, "It is no good remaining here, we will go back to Mr. Thompson's"—we did so, and Mr. Thompson charged him.
Prisoner. Q. Did not you tell me that if the man gave me the order it was not likely he would own to it? A. I believe I did.
Prisoner. It was my firm opinion that he had the order from Mr. Thompson, and I thought Mr. Thompson would say that he gave it to him.
THOMAS SLATER . I live at 68, Regent's Road, Mile End—Dr. Thompson has been in the habit of attending me professionally, and has given me several orders on Mr. Shephard for meat—I have never authorised the prisoner to present an order for me—I saw him on the morning of the 20th, when I had been applying for work and could not get any—I came through the West India Docks and saw him there—I told him Mr. Thompson had been so kind as to give me orders—he said, "What kind of an order was it?"—I said, "A piece of paper"—he said, "Don't you think it would be easy to make such a paper?"—I said, "No, it would be dangerous"—I said, "I am going home"—he said, "I am going this way"—I said, "Come"—I went with him to Sermon Lane corner, and left him—I went to have a cup of coffee with a friend, and I was in the Victoria Park at half-past nine.
Prisoner. Q. What was your reason for working in the Docks? A. Because I was slack at my own business—I was trying to get work—I did not walk on one side, so that the men should not see me—when you spoke about work I did not say, "What is the use, when I can obtain my living by other means?"—I told you my family affairs, which was very wrong of me—I had not a genuine order about my person that morning from Mr. Thompson for two pounds of meat—I have been working in the Docks about two months, and can prove it—I believe it was on the 10th June that I first went to work there—it was about seven o'clock when I began to speak to you the other morning—I have attended a meeting of the Dock labourers—I saw a notice at the "Vulcan," calling them together—I did not go with you to Stepney Station—I told you the meeting was going to take place, and I believe I said, "I shall go"—I do not remember seeing a cartoon in Punch or Fun in the window, and asking you who that was, or you saying that it was Maximilian—I never went up Jubilee Street with you in my life—I am a blacksmith and work at various places in London—you may have it that my employer, though he discharges some men, keeps the best—he had not employment for me—after I left you I had a cup of coffee at a coffee-house with a man—his name is Leman, I think—I did not tell you that I gave a little boy a halfpenny to get two pounds of meat for me because I was ashamed to get it myself.
COURT. Q. You say that you were slack in your business, how long have you been slack? A. Five, six, or seven months, I have worked on or and off—I went to the Docks that morning to get work, but they were too slack, and in fact I did not care a deal about it—I last worked at the Docks a fortnight ago—I had worked there the day before that morning—I did not care about work, because I had been up at half-past four in the morning to get there by six—when I do not go to work I get up about half-past six—I went through the docks on my way home—I did not go there for work exactly, but I should have taken it if it had been offered me—I had not worked for eight or nine days before—I cannot tell you how I lived—I have got a few friends—I went into a coffee-house and
spent a penny in coffee—I sold two birds to Dr. Thompson—I keep one myself—he asked me to get him two, and I went and bought them for him—I made no profit on them—I paid 8s. for them—I lost the time in getting them for him without payment—he had been kind to me and I thought I would not charge him.
Prisoner. Q. Did not you say, "I obtained ten pounds of meat last week, and I shall be nearly as successful this week?"A. I did not—I only had three pounds the week before.
COURT to JOSEPH SHEPHARD. Q. What were the orders generally for? A. Sometimes one pound and sometimes two pounds—I believe I have supplied Slater with two orders for one pound and two orders for two pounds—he would have had about seven pounds of meat in a fortnight—no other butcher supplied meat to these orders that I know of—I commenced serving on the 8th August.
Prisoner to THOMAS SLATER. Q. How much meat had you from Mr. Thompson the first week? A. I cannot answer—I made no memorandum—I can get witnesses to prove that I was at Victoria Park at a quarter past nine—I decline answering whether I have money enough to purchase a witness—I have had no money from the Temperance League—I was a member of it, but am not now—I am a member of the temperance cause—they did not give me two tickets for the Crystal Palace—I have had no tickets from them—I do not know the secretary's name—I did not offer you one of the tickets—I am not acquainted with any prostitute particularly.
The Prisoner's Statement before the Magistrate:—"I was in the West India Docks, and Slater said, 'I have an order for two pounds of meat; will you get it for me?' I said, 'Why do not you get it yourself?' He said, 'I had two pounds of meat there yesterday, and am ashamed to get more there to-day.' He said Mr. Thompson sometimes gave him an order, and 'If the butcher asks if Mr. Thompson gave it to you, say yes.' I was to ask for the meat first and give the order afterwards, or I should get inferior meat. He stopped at the corner, and Mr. Shephard gave it me; he said it would not do. Mr. Slater has been to Dr. Thompson's house, his wife has been lately confined."
Prisoner's Defence. I went down to the West India Docks on 20th September. I got there at twenty minutes past seven, and saw Slater; he said, "I have got an order for two pounds of meat; will you go and get it?" I asked him the reason he could not get it; he said, "I had two pounds yesterday, and am ashamed." I did not at first consent, I had to get work, and it would not be any benefit to me, but he wished me so that I consented. I walked up the Commercial Road, up Jubilee Street, and went into Mr. Shephard's shop and asked for the meat before I gave him the order, because Slater had told me if I did not ask for the meat first I should get inferior meat. When I gave him the order he said, "Did Mr. Thompson give you this?" I said, "Yes, sir." He said, "N shall I take you to Mr. Thompson, or will you go about your business?" I said, "Not without the meat." I thought it was a genuine order, and if I went about my business he would have the money and no one would have the meat. He took me to Mr. Thompson, who gave me in charge. This Slater, in his evidence before Mr. Woolrych, said that I said when he showed me the order, "It is strange that he should give you an order like that; anybody could make one, "and that he said, "No, I suppose there is a mark about it somewhere, "trying to make out, because I said that, that I had
forged the order, but anybody can discuss upon the probability of making a bank note without the least intention of doing so, and I would not do such a thing. Mr. Woolrych said, "Had you got a genuine order about you?" He said "No," but if he had not, what was I alluding to when I said it would be easy to make one like that." Therefore it must have been the forgery, and if he did not give me the order I must have gone home and written it. Now I had not been home since I left home in the morning, I had no paper about me, and if the constable had searched me effectually he would have seen that I had no blue paper. That is not my writing, I should not have been able to write it; there ought to have been some of this person's writing produced to see whose writing it corresponds with. Slater has been under six masters in the docks, and industrious persons do not change about like that; he is associated with a prostitute and a thief, his wife told me so, and that she had no longer any faith in him. He told me that he should never buy sugar while he was in the docks. It may suggest itself to your minds that if he is such a bad person I ought not to associate with him, but I did not know him to be a forger or perjurer, and in the docks you cannot speak to whom you please. I thought the order was genuine, and therefore I took it; he told me a dozen times that if Mr. Shephard asked me if Mr. Thompson gave it to me I was to say "Yes," and I did tell him so once, but I meant all the time if there was any bother about it to say who gave it to me, and I did so. I should not have run the penalty attaching to forgery if I had not believed Slater, nor should I have gone to Mr. Thompson and to the police-court. This lawyer makes up a case against me, but it is like the fog that comes over London, a few words of the wind of truth will blow it all away. If I am convicted I shall add another to the names of those who have unjustly suffered. NOT GUILTY . The Jury stated their opinion that Slater ought to be in the prisoner's position, whereupon the Court ordered him to be taken into custody, and a charge preferred against him at the Guildhall for uttering the forged order.
MR. WRIGHT conducted the Prosecution.
WILLIAM BIRCH . I am a constable in the service of the Great Eastern Railway Company, and live at 10, Type Court, Chiswell Street, St. Luke's, in the warehouse of William Burgess—my bedroom is on the ground floor—at a few minutes past half-past five o'clock I had been in bed two or three minutes, and found the room exceedingly light—I looked up and saw the prisoner looking into the room over the curtain, with a baker's cap on—I slipped out of bed and saw him move a jug and pull a scarf with a gold pin in it towards him, which he got to a broken window—I suppose he saw me looking at him, for he pulled the window down and said, "I want to speak to you, governor"—I had my trousers on; I slipped on my boots, and put my coat on as I went along—the prisoner went up a court, turned round, and came back as if he had come through—I said, "I want you, young fellow," he said, "What for?" I said, "For opening my shutters and window, and attempting to steal my hat, scarf, and pin"—he said, "I know nothing about it; look at my hands, I go to work"—I said, "What are you doing up at this time?"—he said, "I have been to call two or three fellows who work with me"—I gave him in custody and said, "If you will tell me the names of the persons you went to call up I will fetch them as your witnesses"—he said, "I never said anything of the kind."
Prisoner. I did not say so. I said I worked for Mr. Hall, of the City Road. Witness. You said that you worked in the City Road—I said that that was not the way to go—you said, "I always take a walk for half an hour of a morning"—you were going the other way from where you live, in Golden Lane.
JAMES CLARK (Policeman 149 G). On the morning of the 13th September Birch gave the prisoner into my custody, and charged him with a burglary, and attempting to steal a hat, scarf, and pin—he said that he did not know anything about it. NOT GUILTY .
MR. GRAIN conducted the Prosecution, and MR. COLLIER the Defence.
HENRY KOHN . I carry on business at 41, Thread needle Street, City, in the name of Joseph Kohn and Company—I have occasionally employed the prisoner since March to take cases to the docks, which I packed my-self—on the 27th September I packed this case (produced) with about 109 dozen India-rubber combs, and directed the prisoner to take it to the London Docks—they were worth about 17l., and the value of what I missed is 13l.—I told my clerk to watch him, and placed the matter in the hands of a detective, and have since found part of the goods at Moses Moses's.
Cross-examined. Q. Is there any mark on them? A. Yes, on the paper boxes—I positively identify them—on the 5th October I sent the prisoner again with a job to the docks—I saw the prisoner take this box out of my office, which is on the third floor—I had packed it a quarter of an hour before.
MR. GRAIN. Q. Did you know of the witness Donovan's statement? A. Not till I heard it at the Mansion House—I did not know it when I employed the prisoner again.
ALFRED BENJAMIN . I am clerk to Mr. Kohn—on the 27th September I received instructions from him and followed the prisoner—he took the box downstairs and placed it on a barrow—Donovan was with him—they went as far as Leadenhall Market, where the prisoner left Donovan, who went nearly to the bottom of Leadenhall Street, and I missed him—I went on to the Minories, and found him again in five minutes—I only took three or four minutes to walk from Leadenhall Street to the Minories, and at the bottom of the Minories I missed him again—I went to the London Docks, and waited there till he arrived with the case—he was alone, and directly he delivered it at the jetty I had it opened, and found that nearly all the contents had been abstracted.
Cross-examined. Q. Did the prisoner go away at Leadenhall Street, leaving the case with the boy? A. Yes, I did not see him again at all.
MICHAEL DONOVAN . I live at 10, Backchurch Lane, Commercial Road, and am errand boy at Billingsgate—I was there on the 27th September, and the prisoner asked me if I wanted a job—I went with him to Mr. Kohn's place—he went up and brought this case down on his shoulder—it was nailed down, and there were irons across the top of the lid—he put it on the barrow, and gave me the shipping note; which I put in my cap—he left me in Leadenhall Street, and told me to meet him at the corner of the "Golden Lion" public-house, Leman Street—I met him there, and he told me to draw over into Prescott Street, Lupus Street—I did so, and his brother came up—the prisoner took the case off the barrow and put it on
his brother's head—I gave him the shipping note—he said that he should not be a quarter of an hour gone, and told me to go and have a bit of dinner—he was away about a quarter of an hour—he brought the case back and gave me 6d. to take it to the London Dock Jetty—I spent 2d. of the 6d. for some fish and bread—Prescott Street was not in my way to the docks if I had gone straight—it took me about three-quarters of an hour to go to the docks from where the prisoner took the case away.
Cross-examined. Q. Prescott Street is a very little out of the way, is it not? A. Yes, it is as good a way as any to go—I stayed about five minutes in Golden Lane, waiting in the bar—it was twelve o'clock just as I got to the docks with the case—the prisoner said that he was going to his dinner—he was gone a quarter of an hour, or a little more—it was after I delivered the case that I got the bread and fish in the docks.
MR. GRAIN. Q. How do you know that it was twelve o'clock when you got to the docks? A. Because I saw all the men running to get their dinner.
EDWARD HANCOCK . I am a City detective officer—Mr. Kohn gave me instructions to investigate this matter, and on 5th October the prisoner was brought to me at the East India Docks by Blades and another officer—I told him we were police-officers, and should put some questions to him respecting a box taken yesterday week to the London Docks—he hesitated at first, and then said, "I took it there quite safe"—I said, "Are you perfectly sure of that?"—he said, "I sent a young fellow with it"—I said, "That case had been opened when it reached the docks, and seventy dozen combs had been stolen from it, how do you account for that?"—he said, "It was all safe when I delivered it at the docks"—I said, "You just said that you sent a young fellow with it"—he said, "Yes, but I saw him give it safe into the docks"—I said, "Who is he?"—he said, "A stranger to me"—I said, "It was strange to trust a case to a stranger. Do you know his name, or where he lives?"—he said, "No"—I said, "Can you assist me in finding him?"—he said, "No, but he hangs about Billingsgate Market"—the prisoner's brother was with him, and we took them both to Mr. Kohn's office and pointed the cases out to them—I said, "That is the case I spoke of"—the prisoner said, "Yes, that is the one we took"—I went to Bilings gate Market next morning and found Donovan—I took him to the City, confronted him with the prisoner, and said, "Is this the lad you sent with the box?"—he said, "Yes"—I said, "He makes a statement criminating you, would you like to hear what he has to say?"—he said, "Yes"—Donovan then made the same statement as he has to-day—I said, "You hear what he says. Is it true?"—he said, "I told him to go with me to the 'Lion' "—I said, "Is all you say true?"—he said, "Yes, it is all true"—he was then locked up again.
Cross-examined. Q. I believe between the 27th September and the 5th October the prisoner was employed to carry things to the docks? A. Yes, followed by me, and subsequently by Davis—I did not open the cases after they got to the docks—I had no occasion—there was not a single thing missed which the prisoner carried between those dates—they were all very heavy.
JOHN DAVIS (City Policeman 921). On the 5th October I saw the prisoner in Spectacle Alley—I told him I was a policeman and should take him for stealing a quantity of articles from a case in transit from Mr. Kohn's warehouse to the docks—he said that he did not remember,
but afterwards that he did take it—I asked which way he went—he said, "Up Leadenhall Street and down the Minories"—I took him to the East India Docks, where we met Hancock, and heard him make a statement—I then asked the prisoner whether he took the case down Grower's Walk—he said no, he never took it that way.
The prisoner received a good character. GUILTY .— Judgment respited .
MR. LEE conducted the Prosecution, and MR. WRIGHT the Defence.
MARY HALL . I am the wife of James Hall, of 16, Davies Street—five weeks ago to-morrow I was at the corner of Prince's Street between eight and nine at night—the prisoner came up and offered to take me away with her—I went a little way, and she struck me across the face, and tripped me up very violently—I was knocked down on the kerb—I was sober enough to know what I was doing, but I had had a little drink—she robbed me of a florin and a half-crown while I was on the ground—I called out, "Annie, this woman has robbed me"—she ran away, and a policeman took her with the money in her hand.
Cross-examined. Q. What had you been doing that day? A. I was at home and got my husband's dinner—it was after two o'clock—I never was at Hendon—I did not know that Hendon races were on—I do not deny being at Hendon races—I believe that is the "Welsh Harp" races—I took a cab there—I do not know that the "Welsh Harp" is at Hendon—I did not see the races, I never got out of the cab—I did not have a little refreshment inside the cab, but prior to my leaving home I changed a sovereign, and while I changed it my friend got a drop of brandy—I was not intoxicated—I took some brandy again during the afternoon, I had it inside the cab, it was fetched by the cabman—brandy was only fetched to me once inside the cab—I had no whisky—I remained at the "Welsh Harp" till about eight, and left in sufficient time to be at the corner of Prince's Street, Maida Hill, at half-past eight—I did not stop once from the "Welsh Harp" to Prince's Street—I have not heard of the "Portman Arms"—I never went in there, nor was I so intoxicated that they refused to serve me—I distinctly remember everything that took place—I will not swear whether the friend who went with me was intoxicated—the prisoner came up and spoke to me, and I said, "Will you be kind enough to show me a place of convenience?" supposing she would take me to a place of her own.
COURT. Q. You said before the Magistrate, "The prisoner came up to me and said, 'If you wish to go anywhere I will take you?" A. She came there and spoke to me, and said, "What are you looking for?"—I said, "A place of convenience." NOT GUILTY .
MR. WOOD conducted the Prosecution, and MR. BESLEY defended Nieffer, and the evidence was interpreted to Berger.
JAMES AIR . I live at 107, Cannon Street Road, and work at a steamtug—I was standing by the Fountain about eleven or twelve at night talking to Anderson—Nieffer came up and struck me, and then ran at Anderson, who made a kick at him—Nieffer passed something to Berger,
and said "Stab the villain"—he stabbed me, and I was taken to a doctor—he said, "Knife the villain" in English—I was struck six inches from my heart—I ran across the road—I was taken from the doctor's to the London Hospital, where I have been since Monday week.
Cross-examined. Q. Do you know where Nieffer lives? A. No—I do not know Sophy Young, a tenant of his, living in the same house—I had not been there to ask for her, nor had I kicked at the door—I had not spoken to Nieffer, and had never seen him before—I do not know whether Anderson lives in Cannon Street Road—I heard no woman abusing Nieffer, nor did I see him struck—there was no one in the street when he struck me—he struck me without saying a word—he did not ask me what I meant by knocking at the door—the words were, "Knife the villains," it was not "Strike the villians"—I was agitated, having been knocked down—he had been struck by M'Carthy—I was not half a yard off when I heard those words—I do not know that the prisoners are Germans—I never saw them before.
Berger. Q. Do you recollect coming with six others upon me? A. No—something in paper was passed to you.
MR. WOOD. Q. Could you tell what it was? A. No—I did not see it—I was struck first, and was running away when M'Carthy struck the blow.
JAMES ANDERSON . I live at 4, Gun Court, St. George's-in-the-East—I had been speaking to Air two or three minutes when this gentleman came and struck him in the eye, and knocked him down, without his having said anything—Air had given him no cause—Air ran away—he then struck me in the eye, and I struck him back in self-defence—the boy went to run away and he made a kick at him, and M'Carthy struck him, and then that gentleman said, "Knife the villains," and then the other gentleman struck him with a knife in his side—I did not see the knife—I afterwards saw him run indoors, and the boy was taken to the doctor's.
Cross-examined. Q. What are you? A. A cork cutter—I live near.62, Cannon Street Road, close outside which house this took place—I saw Berger run out of the house—I did not hear any boys ask for Sophy Young—I saw no woman, and heard no abusive language—this happened immediately I went up.
EUGENE M'CARTHY . I am a butcher, of 9, Samuel Street—I have not been in Court, and have not heard what has been said—I was in Cannon Street and saw Nieffer kicking a lad in the road—I spoke to him, thinking he was an Englishman—he kicked him several times—I said to the lad, "Get up and get on your feet"—he did so, and attempted to run, and the prisoners both ran after him—Berger had a knife in a piece of paper—they got the lad against the wall, and Berger stuck the knife into his side—the boy said, "I am stabbed," and then blood ran down, he ran into the house, and was taken to a doctor's—I called a constable—I did not strike Nieffer, but I should have if he had not got away from me.
Cross-examined. Q. Did you hear them speaking German? A. They seemed squabbling—I did not see a soul outside the house but these two men—the lad was on the ground when I went up, and Nieffer was kicking him.
Berber. Q. Did you see Nieffer give me the knife? A. No, but I saw you stab Air distinctly, and I saw you throw the knife away directly you had done it.
—I said, "What is the matter?"—he said, "I am stabbed"—the prisoners were not present—M'Carthy went with me to Cannon Street Road, where Air pointed to Nieffer, and said, "That is one who knocked me about"—he then looked behind the door, and saw Berger, and said, "That is the one who stabbed me"—I found this knife three hours afterwards under the railway arch.
REES LLEWELLEN . I am house surgeon at the London Hospital—Air was brought there with a punctured wound over his sixth rib, a little to the left of the nipple; it went to the bone, and if it had not been for the bone it would have entered his heart in its natural position, but I find his heart is a quarter of an inch to the right—the stab was in a dangerous place—He is out of danger now, but is still unwell.
Berger's Defence. At half-past eleven I was eating an apple, intending to go to bed directly afterwards. There were six violent knocks at the door. Nieffer went outside, and in a little while he returned, and called his friend Ernest, who lives in the house. I became curious, went out a few steps, and saw Nieffer falling down, and I, being frightened, wanted to run away; but when I was about three yards from my home, going back, six men rushed upon me. I foolishly had the knife in my possession, and they ran on it. I went indoors, and three or four policemen came and took me. There is no truth in the statement that a knife was passed to me, and I did not throw it away, I took it inside with me.
GUILTY of unlawfully wounding. — Confined Four Months .
MR. METCALFE conducted the Prosecution, MR. DALY appeared for Barnes, and MR. BESLEY for Rowley.
ANN LONG . I live at 83, Gower Street—in August I advertised a hat manufactory for sale in Charles Street, Middlesex Hospital, and several persons called upon me, and among them the prisoner Rowley—he looked at the goods very particularly, and said that he had come up from Manchester to work up his business, but that the tools would be of no use to him, but he had a friend who would buy them—I refused to divide them—he said that he represented a Manchester house, and gave me to understand that he was a manufacturer in a large way in town—he came again next day and introduced Barnes as his friend, who looked over the goods very particularly—Rowley asked him whether he would like to go into the steam rooms again—he said, "No, I have seen it all, I know it all," and said he would let me know on Monday the highest figure he would give for it, that he had a place in Clerkenwell where he usually received his letters, but they had had a place at the West End, but were about to give up their retail business—he spoke of Mr. Heath, of Oxford Street, and said that they had several retail shops, but he did not care about that—I enclosed a list of the articles on the Saturday, and on Monday Barnes came and made me the offer of 175l.—he wrote it and left it in an envelope—I agreed ultimately to accept that—the money was to be paid on the Friday and the goods to be cleared on the Saturday—but he said that his broker had disappointed him in selling some Metropolitan shares, and urged me to accept a draft on his banker at seven days, and I agreed to take it—this is it (produced), and this is the receipt I gave
him—this bill is all I got for the 175l.—Barnes came next day and fetched the goods away—I presented the bill at the bank on the Monday week following, but there were no effects, and they did not recognise the signature, and advised me to go to a solicitor—I found Barnes at the shop in Clerkenwell, he said that the bill was not due till next day—I said that I always had the money when I presented a bill—he said that the bank were offended with him because he withdrew his money at the time of the panic, but he was sorry I should have the trouble, and he would pay me the extra cab fare, and be with me next morning at eleven or half-past eleven—I did not get the cab fare—I went to the bank again, but could, get no money, and never got any—I went again to Clerkenwell, and found the shop closed and everything moved during the night—I could not find Barnes there—I have seen some of my goods in the hands of the police, but there is a deficiency of 35l. or 40l.
Cross-examined. by MR. DALY. Q. Was not the first proposition made to you to take the stock without the place? A. No—after the bill was not met I went to Barnes's shop, in John Street, Clerkenwell, and told him so—I do not know a bill from a draft—I know what a cheque is; I have a cheque-book of my own—I took this to a friend, a gentleman retired from Chancery, and he laughed at me for calling it a bill—I swear that I thought it was a banker's draft when I got it—Barnes told me that his family had an account at that bank—he did not leave the bill with me one day to make inquiries and, call the next—I was not able to make inquiries—I cannot swear he left it with me 24 hours—I put it in my son's pocket-book—he said, "I receive my letters at 52, Hanley Road, Hornsey," but I do not know whether he lived on this side of the water or the other—I did not tell the jury that he said, "I have a country house"—I have no doubt he lived somewhere in the environs—he wrote a letter, asking me to restore him to his wife—she called on me, but I said that it was quite out of my hands—I did not say that I would give him as much as I could—I heard the address given to the carman when the goods left, but I do not remember it—I did not hear him told to take them to 32, Friday Street—I may have been at the door when they left, but did not hear that—I went to the greengrocer who had recommended a person to remove the goods, but had some difficulty in finding them—he was not in his shop at the time the bill was not paid, and the people told me that he went off in the night and they did not know his address—a gentleman coming out said that he was a regular swindler.
COURT. Q. Did you know of your own knowledge where the goods were going? A. No—Barnes told me that he intended giving up the retail business and confining himself to the wholesale—I do not think he could have disposed of the stock during the seven days the bill had to run and before I found the goods.
MR. DALY. Q. Why not? A. Because I had been trying for months—I question whether a pawnbroker would have taken in the goods I sold him, and I doubt whether he could have sold them at a quarter sacrifice, his name is so well known that nobody would have anything to do with him.
Cross-examined. by MR. BESLEY. Q. I believe you are a native of Ireland? A. No—I had advertised the business for some time—this (produced) is the advertisement—I advertised it at stock-book prices, 223l. 19s. 7d., but did not bind myself to sell to the highest tender—I wanted to sell it by tender in one lot—I sold it for 175l.—I had made up my mind that I
would sell by 12 o'clock on Wednesday, 29th August, and it was the Thursday previous to that that Rowley came—he looked at the best hats, and I said that I would not deal unless the tools and everything were sold also—he came on Thursday with Barnes and looked minutely at all the property—I had the greatest confidence in Barnes up to the time I went to the bank—I had not set eyes on Rowley up to the time I found the shop in Clerkenwell closed.
MR. DALY. Q. Did not Barnes pay you 10l. 1s. 7d. on account? A. Not on account; he said, "I will write that on the bill"—I wanted a little cash, it was for various articles not in the inventory—he said that he would get me 20l. by Monday if I was short of cash—I said I was very short, and he gave me 10l. 1s. 7d., for things he purchased of me.
MR. METCALFE. Q. Did you see Rowley after the shop was shut at Clerkenwell? A. Yes, on Thursday, the 13th—I found the shop closed on the Tuesday, and all the fixtures were taken away in the night—I saw him in Friday Street, and asked him to tell me where Mr. Barnes's manufacturing premises were, and whether he was aware that his shop in Clerkenwell was closed, and I told him he had not paid me the money, but had given me a bankers draft, and that I had been to the bank, and I told him what the banker's said—he said that he was a good deal surprised to hear that, for he got a good deal of money from him—I asked him if he knew where Barnes had taken my property to, as I understood he took it to the manufacturing premises—he said, "No, he did not"—I said, "Do not you know where it is taken to?"—he said, "No"—I asked him if Barnes had been there that morning, he said "No"—I said, "I expect to meet him here with my son"—I said that as a subterfuge—he said, "Where did you direct your letter to?"—I said, "To the Hanley Road"—I saw the goods next day at that house—this receipt speaks of a banker's bill.
MR. BESLEY. Q. In what room was it that you saw some of the goods? A. At the top of the house—this conversation took place outside the front door—I would not go over the steps—he asked me to go in, but I would not, I might have been killed—I do not want my goods back, I want my money, and to leave town as soon as possible for my son's health—I have got back about 35l. worth of goods—I have not been offered the difference—I would not hear of it—I was threatened by Barnes what he would do—he said, "No compromising a felony, Mrs. Long; this is the best day's work I ever did in my life"—yesterday morning I heard a proposal by which I was to have money or goods, but I said I would not compromise it if he would give me 500l.
MR. DALY. Q. Did the prisoner hear that said about not compromising a felony? A. Yes—he did not say at the police-court that he never heard the words uttered—he could have heard them.
THOMAS ROSEY HIDE . I live at 17, Palmerston Terrace, Kennington Park, and am the landlord of No. 32, Friday Street, Cheapside—Rowley was my tenant there—he came about June and had one room, the rent of which was 20l. a year—some time in September Barnes came and took a room, which Rowley had spoken to me about, and some goods were brought—I saw Mrs. Long at the door about eight days after the goods were brought—I did not see the goods delivered, but Rowley gave me the key of the room in which the goods were two or three days after Mrs. Long came—he said, "There are goods there which I wish to know nothing about, and you will oblige me by keeping the key"—he said that his name could not be used in the matter, as he would lose a commission which he
then had—I took the key, and when I unlocked the room there were the goods claimed by Mrs. Long—I gave them up at the police-court.
Cross-examined. by MR. DALY. Q. Was this conversation after Barnes was taken in custody? A. Yes—I have sold Barnes goods—he is a respectable young man—he had a shop in St. John Street, Clerkenwell—he told me he had been a hat manufacturer previous to going into the retail trade, and that he took a room in Friday Street to manufacture goods and sell them to the trade—he did not leave his address with me when he went out—he gave his address at St. John Street—the goods were kept in the house ten days.
Cross-examined. by MR. BESLEY. Q. HOW many rooms are there in the house? A. Eleven—Rowley took a room on the fourth floor left-hand side—Barnes's room was on the sixth storey—I have not seen Rowley in Barnes's room—Rowley did not tell me that Barnes's office-boy gave him the key after Barnes was taken in custody—there was no one present when Rowley gave me the key—he told me it had been left with him—he said that he did not wish to know anything about the goods on the top storey, for if his name was brought into it. he should lose his appointment for Wood and Co., of Manchester.
FREDERICK SMITH . I am a hatter, of Prince's Street, Leicester Square—there is no other hatter in that street—Barnes has no connection with that shop—it was Rowley's business before I bought it—I went in on the 28th March—my father bought it for me and paid Rowley for the good-will—since that neither of them has had anything to do with it.
Cross-examined. by MR. DALY. Q. When you took possession was a person named Risden in charge? A. Yes, Mr. Rowley employed him—Barnes came one night in a cab, and we both went to my father's, and the cheque was given—Barnes did not tell me he had an interest in the business—he came to ask me for the cheque—we had. previously had instructions from Rowley to pay it to him—Barnes did not say that he had some interest in the shop.
Cross-examined. by MR. BESLEY. Q. Have you known Rowley from childhood? A. Yes; we used to go to school together, and I have continued to correspond with him since—I have the highest confidence in him—he is a respectable honest young man.
Cross-examined. by MR. DALY. Q. Did not Barnes stock the shop? A. Yes, and Rowley had to pay him—I have paid him for everything.
MR. METCALFE. Q. At that time were Barnes and Rowley apparently friends? A. Rowley said that he owed the money to Barnes, and I was to pay him—I think Rowley, after he left the shop, was engaged for a fortnight at Mr. McQueen's, and then he took Wood's agency.
THOMAS ROSKELLY (Policeman 68 C). On the 13th September Barnes was brought to George Street Station, and I took him on a warrant which I held—I read it to him, and he said that it was a false charge—I found in his pocket-book this certificate of protection in bankruptcy, dated the 9th July, 1866—I took Rowley on his doorstep in Hanley Road, Hornsey, about twelve o'clock on the night of the 14th—he was in conversation with a gentleman—(Barnes also lived there, but I have not seen him there)—Rowley said that it was a bad job, he had been led into it—I saw Rowley at 32, Friday Street, on the 13th, the day Barnes was apprehended—I did not go there with Mrs. Long on that occasion—I saw Rowley and the landlord, Mr. Hyde—I said that Barnes was in custody, and that I had ascertained that the property belonging to Mrs. Long was in the house—
Rowley said, "This is my office; I know nothing about the goods"—I afterwards got 200 hats from that house from the front room sixth floor—Mrs. Long identified them.
Cross-examined. by MR. BESLEY. Q. You were examined twice, I believe, before the Magistrate? A. Yes—I have said before to-day that Rowley used the expression, "bad job;" it is in my evidence at Marlborough Street on the second examination—I had seen him at his place at Friday Street before I took him at Hornsey—the conversation I have given you last took place first, the day previously.
Cross-examined. by MR. DALY. Q. It is not drawn on you, it is payable at your place? A. Yes—we have accounts in the name of Barnes—I do not know that they are his brothers, but I have heard that they are—I know that a man named Barnes who banks with us keeps a shop.
MR. METCALFE. Q. You would not allow one brother to draw on the other's account? A. No.
Cross-examined. by MR. DALY. Q. Did he leave his address with you on an envelope? A. Yes, "Mr. F. Barnes, hatter, 35, John Street, Clerkenwell."
The following prisoners PLEADED GUILTY before Mr. Commissioner Kerr on October 22nd:—
957. WALTER HOUSTON (30) , to stealing forty-two yards of calico, six shirts, eighty-four collars, and other articles of Sampson Copestake and others, his masters.— Confined Eighteen Months . [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]
958. ALBERT LLOYD (21) , to stealing four shirts, twelve collars, and eight yards of velvet of Sampson Cope-stake and others, his masters.— Confined Nine Months . [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]
959. WILLIAM TIMMS (30) , to feloniously forging and uttering a request for the delivery of two enemas and one set of tooth instruments; also a request for the delivery of 500 pills and other medicines, having been before convicted of felony in 1863; also to unlawfully obtaining from Richard Aird four ounces of quinine and one dozen Stedman's powders by false pretences.— Seven Years' Penal Servitude . [Pleaded guilty: See original trial image.]
MR. DALY conducted the Prosecution, MR. HORRY defended Janes, and MR. HARRIS defended Hibbert.
Saturday morning, 8th September, I missed fourteen live geese from my stable—I had seen them there the night before—I called in the police—I traced the feathers through a meadow to a haystack at a place called "Hilly Fields," about three-quarters of a mile off, where I found six dead geese—I recognised them as my property by marks that were on them, and from their general appearance—the fourteen geese were worth about 7l.
Cross-examined. by MR. HARRIS. Q. What were the peculiar marks by which you recognised the geese? A. They were of a slate colour, and marked on the hip, under the wing—I could also tell them by their weight—they weighed about eight or nine pounds.
JOHN MOORE (Policeman 320 P). On Saturday, September 8th, about two o'clock, I went to the Hilly Fields and saw some geese concealed under the hay—I got up a tree about fifty yards off, and watched—shortly afterwards I saw Bailey going towards the stack with a bag under his arm—when he got as far as some iron hurdles he went on his hands and knees to the stack and began putting something in the bag—I got down the tree and waited until he came up to me—I asked him what he had got there—he said, "Some geese"—I asked what he was going to do with them—he said, "It is all right; you have got me right this time, but I have been a tool for others"—he said something about other persons being at the "Oak" public-house—I took him to the station, and then went to the "Oak"—I made some inquiries there, and then went to Hibbert's house, in Hanover Street—I found him at home, but he was not sober—I told him he was charged on suspicion of being concerned with Bailey in stealing fourteen geese—he said he know nothing about it—I took him to the station.
JAMES WARE . I kept the "Earl. Grey" public-house, Lewisham—on September 8th Janes came to me and asked me to buy a goose—he said they were 3s. each, that they belonged to his own party, and were come by honestly—I said, "No"—the same morning Bailey and Hibbert came and asked me to buy six for a sovereign—they were not sober—they did not say "geese," but "six for a sovereign"—I said, "No," and they went away.
FREDERICK HAYNES . I am a blacksmith, and live in Hanover Street, Lewisham—on Saturday night, the 8th September, I was in the "Earl Grey" public-house—Janes came in and asked me if I would buy a goose—he said the price was 3s., and that it was "all-right"—I told him I was provided for dinner, but afterwards I bought it, and took it home, but in consequence of something my wife said I threw it away—I paid him 3s.
RICHARD NEWMAM . I live at Lewisham, and work in the brickfields there—on the 8th September, as I was sitting in the brickfield having my dinner, I say Bailey and Hibbert—one of them had a bag under his arm—they went towards the haystack, and returned in about twenty minutes—the bag was empty when I first saw them, but it was bulky when they returned—I had known Hibbert before.
Cross-examined. by MR. HARRIS Q. Don't you know him to be a hard-working man? A. Yes; he bears that character in the neighbourhood.
JOHN THOMAS FOX (Policeman 8 P). On Monday, the 10th September, I took Janes into custody—I told him it was for being concerned with Bailey and Hibbert in stealing some geese—he said he did not know anything at all about any geese.
Hibbert received a good character.—BAILEY and HIBBERT— GUILTY . Hibbert strongly recommended to mercy. — Confined Six Months each . JANES— NOT GUILTY .
MR. SLEIGH conducted the Prosecution, and MR. HARRIS the Defence.
FREDERICK WILLIAM CHAPMAM . I am accountant to the Greenwich Board of Works—during the time of the cholera the prisoner was appointed inspector of nuisances for that district—it was his duty to destroy the bedding and clothing of persons dying of cholera, and to apply to me for money to purchase articles in substitution of them—he would bring me a list of the things and the value, which I would get properly certificated by the Board, and then pay it to the prisoner—I know his handwriting perfectly well—this invoice (produced) is in his writing, and also the receipt appended to it—the receipt purports to be that of Robert Poole—it was presented to me by the prisoner, and I handed him the sum of 3l. 5s. 6d., believing that he had paid the money to Poole—on the 22nd September my attention was called by the Chairman of the Board to this case of Poole, in consequence of which I called on the prisoner at his house, at Deptford—I said, "I want to speak to you with regard to Poole's case"—he took me into a kind of taproom—I told him I did not believe he had disbursed the money according to the bill which he had produced to me—after much hesitation he told me he had only paid 19s. 3d.—I told him it was a very bad case, and he must give me the difference at once, which after still further hesitation he did.
Cross-examined. Q. Did not the prisoner have to buy things with his own money, and then apply to you for it? A. I have no knowledge of that—I did not know he had paid Poole 19s. or 20s. before he came to me—I have seen him write scores of times—he had the money from me on the 15th September, and I went to him on the 22nd.
JAMES POOLE . I am the son of Lucy Poole, who lately died of cholera—I have no brother or relation of the name of Robert Poole—I can write my name, but I cannot read—I did not make the mark that is to this receipt—about a fortnight after my mother's death I met the prisoner by appointment at the "Mitre" tavern—he did not pay me any money—he asked me my name, and I told him James Poole—he then asked me whether I would have the money then, or whether he should bring it round—I said I would rather have it then, as it would save him the trouble of coming round—he then looked in his book, and said he had not put our claim in, but we should have it on Monday or Tuesday—I was coming away, and he gave me 2d.—I have never received any other money from him—he never asked me to sign any paper.
Cross-examined. Q. At the "Mitre" tavern did you see a man of the name of Thomas? A. Yes—I swear that I never put this x to this paper—I have had some things from a shop by the order of Mr. Evans; they consisted of two sheets, two blankets, a counterpane, a frock, and two chemises—Mrs. Jones and my sister went and received them—I did not see Mr. Avery, the landlord, at the "Mitre" tavern—the prisoner did not say to me, "Just give me a receipt, and I will not detain you;" he said, "I will see and get the money"—Mr. Avery did not furnish any paper to the prisoner while I was there—the prisoner did not write a receipt and ask me to sign it—Mr. Avery did not supply pen and ink—
I may have said I could write my name, but could not read; but I did not say I could read, but could not write—I live at 2, Ravensborn Road, and am in the employ of Messrs. Burnett and Co.
Witnesses for the Defence.
WILLIAM THOMAS . I am a furniture broker, of No. 7, Greenwich Road—I remember being at the "Mitre" tavern with the prisoner on a Saturday—the lad Poole we met outside—we all went inside, and the prisoner asked for pen and ink and a bit of paper, which were supplied him—the prisoner wrote something, but I do not know what it was—he said to the boy, "Put your mark here," and the boy made his mark—I saw him make the mark—when we got outside the prisoner said to the boy, "I wont detain you, you go about your business, and I will see to this and see you again."
Cross-examined. Q. Can you tell me what the colour of the paper was? A. Note paper, white paper—I did not take much notice of it—I came here this morning with the prisoner—I have carried on business in Greenwich a great many years, but never in Deptford—I have always carried on the same kind of business—the prisoner has bought several articles of me.
COURT. Q. Did you know what was being written at the public-house? A. No, it was no business of mine—I think the boy made a cross—I did not see any stamp upon the paper.
MR. PATTY. I am relieving-officer at Deptford—on the 20th September three of the Poole family came into the union—I was instructed by the Board to investigate the case, and on the 21st September I called on the prisoner, but he was out—I left word for him to call on me between five and six in the evening, which he did; I told him I had been directed by the Board to make inquiry in reference to the goods that he had supplied to the children of Poole, and that I was surprised he had not supplied them with a bed—he said they had one; I said, "No, they have not, for I have visited the bedroom, and. I find nothing but the bedclothes"—I also told him that the nurse complained that she had not been paid her money—he said that was quite right, he had not paid her, but was going to do so; he also said that he had money in abeyance belonging to the boy Poole, and was going to hand it over to him—I told him that if he would act upon my suggestion, instead of giving the boy the money, he would lay it out in some useful manner for him—he said he thought he would act on my suggestion, and then left my house.
BENJAMIN AVERY . I am landlord of the "Mitre" tavern, Church Street, Greenwich—I remember the prisoner and Thomas coming into my house on a Saturday, near dinner time—I was very busy—I do not remember seeing the boy Poole—the prisoner asked me to oblige him with a sheet of paper, and pen and ink, which I did—I think the paper was blue, and was half of a circular that I had received—I saw the prisoner write something, but I did not see anybody else write—there were seven or eight people in the same compartment at the time.
GUILTY .— Confined Eighteen Months .
MR. STRAIGHT conducted the Prosecution.
kept the "Victoria" public-house, Plumstead Road—on the 15th September, between two and three o'clock, the prisoner came in for a glass of ale—I served her—she gave me a shilling—I tried it and found it was bad—I told her so—she said she was not aware of it—I marked it and put it on the shelf—this is it (produced)—she paid me with a good half-crown, and I gave her change—I did not give her in custody, but sent the young man to watch her.
EMILY MOORE . I am the daughter of John Moore, who keeps the "Derby" public-house, Walmer Road, Plumstead—on the 15th September, about three in the afternoon, the prisoner came for a glass of ale, which came to 1 1/2;d.—she gave me a shilling—I put it in the till, and gave her change—directly she had gone some one came in and gave me information—I looked in the till and found a shilling—there were no other shillings there—I gave it to the young man who watched the prisoner—he gave it back to me, and I gave it to the policeman—I had not lost sight of it.
STEPHEN WILLIAM BISHOP . I am a grocer, of 5, Essex Place, Plumstead—on Saturday afternoon, the 15th September, about half-past three o'clock the prisoner, came for some pork sausages—they came to 9d.—she gave me 1s.—we have Nixe's patent till, which has six compartments, so that you can tell every coin that you take—it has a glass top—you can serve six customers before a coin gets into the till—I put the shilling into the till—Moore came in before the prisoner left, and from what he said I drew out the drawer, and turned the till round till I came to the last shilling—it was a bad one—I gave, it to the constable—the prisoner was given in custody.
JAMES BICKEL (Policeman 185 R). I took the prisoner at Mr. Bishop's—I told her the charge—she made no answer—I saw her move her hands—she slipped the elastic off her purse, and slipped the purse into her right hand—she took this rag (produced) from the purse, and I said, "I must search you before you go any further"—I took a bad half-crown out of one hand—in her other hand she had this rag, containing three packets, one with six bad shillings in it, another with four bad shillings in, another with three bad half-crowns (produced)—I also found a purse on her containing two good shillings, 14¼;d. in copper, and two good sixpences—I received these shillings from Mr. Moore and Miss Bishop.
WILLIAM WEBSTER . These shillings uttered are both bad, and amongst those found in her hand are two, each from the same mould as the two uttered—the shilling produced by the inspector is bad, and from the same mould as one of those uttered.
Prisoner's Defence. The shillings were given to me by a gentleman. I did not know they were bad. GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months .
Before Mr. Recorder.
MR. POLAND conducted the Prosecution, and MR. COLLINS the Defence.
JAMES SIMMONDS . I live at Whitelock Cottages, Bell Green, Lower Sydenham, and am a platelayer in the service of the South Eastern Railway—on the afternoon of 22nd September I was at the Lower Sydenham
station, and, in consequence of what was said to me by the stoker of the forty-two past five o'clock down train from London, I immediately went up the Mid-Kent line—I found this piece of wood (produced) on the metals of the up road—it was half a mile from Lower Sydenham station exactly, according to the post—it was on the outside metal, about fifteen or sixteen inches over, between the two rails—I took possession of it, and took it to the station—I saw some marks about there, but I did not stay long, as a train was due at Lower Sydenham—the train was due at six o'clock on the up line—it would have had to have passed over the rail where the piece of wood was—I did not receive instructions of its being on the line before the down train, and then I had to go half a mile—I should think it was about ten minutes or a quarter to six o'clock when I took it off—on the previous day I had been at work close to the place where the piece of wood was—I had put that piece of wood about six feet off in the ditch—it is a portion of a spoilt sleeper—I placed it about twenty-four yards from the foot crossing.
Cross-examined. Q. How far was this sleeper from the foot crossing? A. Where I found it, about six yards—I received information within a minute or two of forty-two minutes past five o'clock—I saw some foot-marks leading towards the crossing—they were plain enough for me to see them—I could not discern any nail marks—there were two or three foot-marks—it seemed one distinct footmark—apparently only one boy had been there.
MR. POLAND. Q. HOW far were these footmarks from the line of rails leading from this piece of wood across the metals to the crossing? A. six yards—I could trace the marks of one person apparently stepping from the piece of wood towards the crossing—I knew these lads by sight
COURT. Q. Would the soil between the two rails be soft enough to Leave any footmarks? A. Yes.
CHARLES ATKINS . I live at Bell Green, Sydenham—I was fourteen last May—on Saturday, 22nd September, between five and six, I was near the Mid-Kent line with another boy named Smart—I saw the prisoners there between four and five throwing a piece of wood about—this is the piece—they were throwing it to one another—Ingham said to West, "Shall we lay it on the metals?"—they then put it on the line—both of them put it on—one got hold of one end, and one of the other—they put it on the up line, the outside one—I said, "You'd better take it off, or else you'll get took off"—West said, "That's rubbish"—they both ran away towards their cottages—they live close handy—when they went away I did not take it off—I did not tell any one till they came to me—the policeman, Mr. Fox, came to me on the Wednesday—this happened on a Saturday—he came to me at my place where I live, and I gave him some information.
Cross-examined. Q. You thought you were going to be taken into custody yourself when the policeman came, and then you said these boys did it? A. I thought they were going to take me if I did not tell—I remained about an hour close to the railway after the boys placed the wood there—I did not see the porters come up and make inquiries—I saw the porters going backwards and forwards between the Saturday and the Wednesday—I did not say anything about it—I know that a piece of wood placed on the rail would be very likely to upset a train—I did not stay for an hour looking at the piece of wood—I was about two hundred yards off picking champignons—I did not expect to see a train come down about that time—after I had finished picking the champignons I did not go back and look at the piece of
wood again—I went farther away from it—I was going homewards—I only looked at the piece of wood when they put it on—I was about six yards from them—I live at Lower Sydenham, about a mile from where the prisoners live—they don't work nearer to me than a mile—I have never been charged with anything myself—they took my brother for stealing a key once—they did not lock me up—I was taken before the Magistrate—my mother was fined a sovereign for us, 10s. for me, and 10s. for my brother—I have worked in the same field as the witness Spiers—I did not bring a piece of iron into the field while I was working with him that had been stolen—I found a piece of iron in the lane as I was going to work—Spiers did not tell me he would not have it in the field, and did not tell me to take it away—I sold the piece of iron ultimately—I know a woman named Louisa Burbury—I have never said to her or to any one that I was very artful over this job—I never said anything of the sort.
MR. POLAND. Q. About this piece of iron, you say you found it? A. Yes—it was about a rod long—I picked it up in the lane and carried it into the field—it remained in the field about four hours—no one claimed it—I sold it after that—Mr. Fox took me before the Magistrate about the key—my brother was not taken at the same time—he was at work—they took him when he came home at night—the Magistrate asked me who it was took the key—I told him it was all the lot of us—a woman had given us sixpence to mind a house—we took the key out of the house and went away—we locked the house up and went home—I do not know who had possession of the key when we were taken before the Magistrate—I did not sell the key—Ingham was taken before the Magistrate as well—he did not have to pay any money—he was a witness—he said I took the key.
WILLIAM JOHN SMART —I am ten years old—I live at Bell Green, Sydenham—I remember being with Atkins on Saturday afternoon—we were going down by the side of the railway—between five and six o'clock in the afternoon I saw the prisoners—they were throwing this piece of sleeper about the metals—West said, "Let's put this on the metal"—one caught hold of one end, and the other the other—Atkins told them to take it off—West said that was all rubbish—they then went down to their houses—I and Atkins went on to get some champignons—we did not take it off—I thought they would put the blame on us, and say it was us who put it on—I did not tell any one about it on the Saturday afternoon—I did not say anything about it before Mr. Strickland came to me—it was a few days afterwards, the next week.
Cross-examined. Q. You did not mention it to your father, nor did you mention it to a soul till the policeman came? A. No—I was afraid I was going to be taken into custody—then I thought I would tell—I remained about a quarter of an hour near the railway after the piece of wood was put down—I went then to get some champignons—we saw Ingham and West put it on, and stopped to see the result of it—we stopped about a quarter of an hour, but not close to the piece of wood—we were not very far, about as far as from here to the Judge.
CHARLOTTE SHIRMAN . I am the wife of Richard Shirman, and live at Perry Hill—on Saturday afternoon, the 22nd September, I saw the prisoners—they were with a young man called "Donkey"—he is not here to-day, they were standing by West's mother's house—that is 124 yards from the railway—I cannot swear to the time, I suppose it to be from five to half-past—it might be before—these two boys (Witnesses) were not with them—I heard West ask Ingham how long
he would be before be would be ready to go, he said, "Not many minutes"—West walked on up the road—there is a foot crossing across the rail-road, 124 yards from where I saw him standing at his mother's gate—I cannot see the railway from my door, I did not go out.
SAMUEL STRICKLAND . I am a police sergeant attached to the South Eastern Railway for special service—I had to make inquiries about this matter—I went on Wednesday, the 26th, to West's house—that is about 100 yards from the crossing in question—I saw him—I told him he was accused of having put a sleeper on the railway, on the previous Saturday evening, by Atkins and young Smart—he said he came home from work about four o'clock in the afternoon, and went almost immediately to the "Two Brewers" public-house, where he remained looking at persons playing at skittles—that was all that took place then—I did not take him into custody at that time—I took the two witness before the Magistrate at Greenwich, and got a warrant—I took West on the warrant on the 2nd of this month—I read the warrant over to him twice—he made no reply whatever to the charge—he was in a brickfield, about half a mile from where he resides.
THOMAS FOX (Policeman P). I took Ingham into custody on a warrant on the 2nd October—I found him at work by the Crystal Palace—I read the warrant over to him—he made no answer to the charge—when I was taking him to Lewisham Station he said he knew nothing about it, and that what Atkins and Smart said about him was untrue—I went to his house two or three days before, and asked him if he could account for his time on the Saturday evening—he said he took some washing for his mother at five o'clock to a Mr. Edwards, in the neighbourhood, and when he came back he went to a Mrs. Bull for a rabbit for a Mr. Paul, of Carter's Nursery—Ingham lives within, I think, 150 yards of the railway—West lives in the same block of houses.
MR. COLLINS called
ROBERT SPIERS . I live at Rutland Park, Perry Hill, and am foreman to a brickfield—West is employed by me—Ingham has been—I remember Saturday, the 22nd September—West was in and out of the field all that day—he worked at intervals during the day because it was wet—he left work at four o'clock in the afternoon—he was in my house, where I was paying my men, from four o'clock up to twenty minutes to five—I saw him again about four or five minutes to five, going towards Rutland Tavern, towards Catford Bridge—I looked out from my cottage, and saw him going towards the "Two Brewers" at six minutes past five by my watch—I saw Ingham about four minutes to five or six minutes to five with a basket of linen—he Went towards Rutland Tavern to go towards Catford—he said he was going to Edwards's—I know where the sleeper was placed on the rail—that was about 400 yards, I should say, from the brickfield.
Cross-examined. Q. When he went to go towards Rutland Tavern did he go towards the railway? A. From the railway—at four minutes to five he was, I should say, 500 yards from the railway—the "Two Brewers" is 500 yards from the rail—he was there about six minutes past five—that was the last I saw of him till seven o'clock—I saw Ingham going out towards the Rutland Tavern, and I did not see him again that evening—Ingham does not work for me now—I am quite sure this was the Saturday.
MR. COLLINS. Q. You pay your men on Saturday? A. Yes—my
attention was called to this in the course of the next week—I pay my men once every six months, at the end of the summer, and that caused me to be longer—that is why I recollect the Saturday—I appeared before the Magistrate.
SARAH SPIERS . I am the wife of the last witness—West was with my husband all the evening of this 22nd September from one o'clock till ten minutes to five—between four and ten minutes to five my husband paid him—I saw him again at ten minutes past five with Ingham—he was in the road between the Rutland Tavern and Sykes's—I know the "Two Brewers"—that is Sykes's—I saw West there at ten minutes past five—the "Two Brewers" is five minutes' walk from my house by the road—it is the opposite way from the railway.
Cross-examined. Q. Was there a boy called "Donkey" with them? A. Yes, they were all together, West, Ingham, and the boy called "Donkey"—I saw Ingham with a basket of linen, going towards Catford—I lost sight of Ingham—I do not know where he went—Ingham (?) went away from outside the "Two Brewers" towards, where his mother lives—that is towards the railway—it was three minutes before (?) five—I saw the time by Mr. Sykes's clock—it might have been a quarter-past five—I do not know how far it is from the "Two Brewers" to the railway—I do not know where this was done—I do not know where the railway goes—you go across a field—I do not know how many minutes' walk—I never went across—about half a mile.
MR. COLLINS. Q. "Donkey" was examined before the Magistrate, and proved to be a donkey, and remembered nothing. What is "Donkey?" Does he merit the name of "Donkey?" A. George Faulkner is his name—they gave him the name of "Donkey," he has got such curious ways with him.
MR. POLAND. Q. Was he examined before the Magistrate? A. Yes, but they did not take what he said—he is not here to-day.
JANE BULL . I am a bricklayer's wife—I remember this 22nd—I saw West from a quarter to six up till six—he passed my back door—I live at the corner house at the corner of the lane, where they go past to go up to the high road—it was somewhere from a quarter to six till six—I could not say exactly the moment.
Cross-examined. Q. How far is your house from the rail? A. About 100 yards—I cannot say the time—it might have been a quarter to six, and it might have been six.
COURT. Q. Which way was he going, towards the rail or from the rail? A. Directly opposite to the rail—he must go past my door to get over the plank 100 yards from the rail.
MR. POLAND. Q. Was any one with him? A. A young man was with him, they call him "Donkey Jack"—Ingham was not with him—I heard West call Ingham, and ask him how soon he would be ready to go up the road—I could not hear whether Ingham answered—West said, "If you don't catch me before I get to the top of the road, meet me at the 'Two Brewers' "—a few minutes after Ingham came in for a rabbit my husband asked him to take for him.
COURT. Q. Do you know the part of the rail where there is a foot-crossing? A. Yes—from my back door I should suppose it is 100 yards.
SARAH WEST . I remember the 22nd September—I should think between five and half-past five, it might be a little later, my boy came home with his money—I sent him directly up with a bottle to Sykes's, the
"Two Brewers"—he did not return borne till ten minutes to ten, and I was very angry with him for not returning before.
Cross-examined. Q. How far is your house from the rail? A. 124 yards—I met him up at Mr. Sykes's—I put a shawl over my head, as he had not brought home enough money to satisfy me for a week's work, and went to Mr. Spiers's cottage, and his little girl told me he was up at Mr. Sykes's—my boy is between seventeen and eighteen.
JOHN FAULKNER . I am a brickmaker—on the 22nd September I saw three of them going towards Catford Bridge, just before you get to the "Rutland Tavern"—it was twenty-five minutes past five—they were twenty yards this side of "Rutland Tavern."
Cross-examined. Q. Who were the three? A. "Donkey Jack" they call him, Ingham, and West—"Rutland Tavern" is half a mile from the rail—I have never measured it—I cannot tell exactly—it is about five minutes from the nearest part of the Mid-Kent Railway—I never was about there much.
JOHN SAMUEL SMITH . I am a grocer, living at Sydenham—my shop is about a stone's throw of the "Rutland Tavern"—I remember Saturday, the 22nd September—the prisoners were in my shop between half-past five and a quarter to six—I know the railway crossing—it is half a mile from my shop.
Cross-examined. Q. Was any one with them. A. Another boy was with them—George Poulton—he is fifteen years of age—he is not here to-day—he did not go before the Magistrate—I am quite sure of the time—I cannot say exactly at what time my attention was called to the matter—I have not taken any measures to ascertain the direct measurement from the rail to my shop across the fields—I am certain the time they came into the shop was half-past five—I wanted my tea at half-past five, and I looked up at the clock just when they came in—it was then half-past five—I said half-past five to a quarter to six, because that was the time when they went out.
COURT to SAMUEL STRICKLAND. Q. DO you know about these distances? A. I have not measured them at all—I should think it was aboat 100 yards from the crossing where the obstruction was put to the cottages—I paced it down—I walked up in four minutes from the railway crossing to the "Rutland Tavern." GUILTY. Recommended to mercy, on the ground that there was nothing malicious in the act.
WEST/— Confined Two Months . INGHAM— Confined Ten Days .
964. JAMES WILLIAMS (17) PLEADED GUILTY to feloniously breaking and entering the dwellinghouse of Daniel Mackney, and stealing a coat and other articles; also to a former conviction at Guildford, in June, 1865, in the name of James Gunn.**— Seven Years' Penal Servitude .
Before Mr. Justice Mellor.
Before Mr. Justice Mellor.
MR. BESLEY conducted the Prosecution, and MR. COOPER the Defence. HENRY WOODGATE. I keep a loan and discount office, 69, Oakley Street, Lambeth—I have known the prisoner about two years, his family longer—on 9th May he came to my office and handed me this bill of exchange (produced)—he said he was desirous of introducing to me a very good transaction, the acceptance of Major Curzon, that he was the son of Lord Howe, and a very first-class man, that the major was in want of a little ready money, and he had desired him to get this discounted privately if he could—he was not to leave it with any of the regular discount people—if he could not get it done privately he was to return it to the major—I asked him if he knew the major—he said certainly—I asked if he saw the major sign the bill—he said certainly—I asked him the same question several times, to which he made the same reply, and pressed very hard that I would do it—he said that I could deduct 25l. for the discount, and Lieutenant Burgess would pay his bill of 25l., which I held, and I could give him my cheque for the difference—I asked him, "Does Lieutenant Burgess know the major?" he said, "Oh, yes, they are friends—I assented to the terms and gave him this cheque for 80l.—I also gave him Lieutenant Burgess's bill for 25l.—this is a cheque on the Lambeth branch of the London and County Bank—it has been received by my bankers as paid—it is endorsed "A. Wright," in the prisoner's writing—there was no endorsement on it when I gave it him—I know the prisoner's writing—the body of the bill is his writing and his signature as the drawer—I have a very strong opinion that the acceptance is his writing, in a feigned hand, and written with a quill—the body is apparently written with a steel pen. (The bill was dated May 5 th, 1866, at six months, drawn by the prisoner, and accepted, Ernest G. Curzon, Major, 52nd Light Infantry. Payable at Cox &Co's., Craig's Court.) On 18th September I accompanied a police officer and Mr. Charles Wright, my solicitor, to 70, Horseferry Road, Westminster—I and the officer remained outside, and Mr. Charles Wright went into the house—I afterwards went in and found the prisoner and Mr. Wright in conversation—he was about to say something about Lieutenant Burgess, and I told him I had come to give him into custody for issuing to me a forged bill of exchange knowingly—he said, "Well, make no fuss about it; come along"—I then gave him into custody (looking at some bank notes)—here are three notes bearing the prisoner's signature, numbers 61355, 61360 and 61359, all dated 12th March—I speak to his writing from my general knowledge of it—I have had letters from him, and I have seen him write.
Cross-examined. Q. Has he been in the habit of bringing bills to you to be discounted? A. No—I first knew him from a small loan transaction for himself—I charged him about fifteen per cent. interest when paid by instalments, which made a larger rate of interest, that is about my usual charge on small loan transactions—I think there were two transactions which ran over the time; they were paid, the last on the 20th March—I
first commenced discounting other bills through him about March this year I think he has brought six bills to me to be discounted—there were other bills than those for Lieutenant Burgess—most of them did not turn out good bills, two were paid, and two were bad bills—I mean dishonoured—they did not all come from Aldershot—they were principally officers—there were two of one party's, they were both paid—the last of the other two was paid, but it was under very peculiar circumstances the prisoner paid it—I might have charged at the rate of sixty per cent. interest for those bills—for the first one I charged 1l. 15s. for a 25l. bill—the prisoner first brought me a bill of Lieutenant Burgess's on 30th April, that was for 25l.; that was the one that merged in the transaction we are now speaking of—2l. was charged for the discount of that—there was one other bill of Lieutenant Burgess for 50l.—they were both done on 30th April, about that time, or two or three days afterwards—the 50l. bill was not met when it came to maturity—nothing was paid on it—I hold it still—I believe Burgess has taken the benefit of the Act—I know he is a bankaupt—I did not know it till recently—it escaped me in the Gazette—I did not know it till August—I did not take any steps with regard to that 50l. bill—that was done through the prisoner, he brought it to me—I charged 8l. interest for that—he had 42l. for the 50l. bill, it was a three months bill—the prisoner brought this bill of Major Curzon's to my office—25l. was more interest than I am in the habit of charging, between 5l. and 10l. more—I asked him at least three times if he saw Major Curzon write it—he pressed it very hard, and reiterated the respectability of the acceptance several times, and I said, "Now, did you see the major sign that bill?"—he said, "Yes, certainly," and so forth, and pressed it very closely—he did not say, "Well, as to seeing him sign, I cannot be sure of that, but I was introduced to him in a room by Lieutenant Burgess, and I was going in and out, and it was handed to me by Lieutenant Burgess, and I believe Major Curzon signed it"—I swear most positively no such words were uttered; this is the first time I ever heard them—he did not tell me that Lieutenant Burgess had introduced him to Major Curzon—I did not ask how he came to know Major Curzon, and I will tell you why, because of his knowledge of military men, he told me he was in the army and navy agency, and travelling for them, and he knew these gentlemen so well, having business with them, and they often asked him to get a matter of that kind done—I asked him the question three times, because I had a little hesitation about doing it—I do not employ agents or advertise to lend money—I may sometimes—I do not regularly—I send out circulars and such like—I have never lent money to officers before.
MR. BESLEY. Q. How much money are you out of pocket at present on the six bills? A. About 180l. or 190l.—I went to see Lieutenant Burgess the morning after the prisoner was given into custody—we were informed that he was staying at the York Hotel, and I went with a policeman to see if I could find him, and found he had left.
MR. COOPER. Q. Did you ask the prisoner where Major Curzon lived? A. On the Saturday previous to going to his house I met him in Parliament Street, and when I asked him, he said it was in May Fair—he did not say I had better inquire of Cox & Co., the army agents—he said he would come to me on Monday evening at six o'clock—he failed to do so, and I then wrote to the major for particular reasons—up to that time I was not aware the acceptance was a forgery.
Friday, the 21st September, I went to 70, Horseferry Road—I left Mr. Woodgate and the officer outside the house, and I went in—I saw the prisoner—he asked me to be seated in an armchair the moment I entered the parlour, and he then went to a desk opposite to me to show me a list of debts that were owing to him, before I said a word to him, which amounted to about 80l. or 90l.—I then said to him, "How about that bill of Major Curzon's? Did you see the major sign it?"—he said, "I did. I am privileged to go to the camp privately. I did so on this occasion, and then saw him sign it "—I said, "What can Major Curzon, a man in his high position, want to do with discounting bills of exchange?"—he said, "It was all balls and pleasure parties"—Mr. Woodgate thencame in.
Cross-examined. Q. Was that all that passed? A. When Mr. Wood; gate came in and charged him he said, "Don't make any fuss or noise; I will go quietly"—I did not ask him who was present when Major Curzon signed it—Lieutenant Burgess's name was not mentioned to me—I am quite sure of that—I do not know Lieutenant Burgess.
MAJOR THE HONOURABLE ERNEST GEORGE CURZON . I am major in the 52nd regiment, quartered at Aldershot, and am a son of Lord Howe—I was at Aldershot in May last—the acceptance to this bill is not my writing—I never to my knowledge saw the prisoner before he was in custody—I have never in any way or at any time been connected with bills of exchange—there is no other person in the 52nd regiment of the name of Curzon—I know nothing of Lieutenant Burgess—I never saw him that I am aware of—I cannot recollect whether I was at Aldershot on the 5th of May—very likely I was.
Cross-examined. Q. I suppose you have heard of Lieutenant Burgess? A. I never heard of him until this—that is not the least like my writing.
FREDERICK STOCKLEY . I am the chief clerk in the London and County Bank, Lambeth Branch—I cashed this cheque for 80l.—I can't say for whom—it was paid across the counter—Mr. Woodgate keeps an account with us—I paid for it twelve 5l. notes and 20l. in gold—the numbers of the notes were 61353 to 61364, dated the 12th March, 1866.
RICHARD BRASIER . I am a licensed victualler, and keep the "King's Head," Horseferry Road, a few doors from No. 70—I changed this 5l. note for the prisoner—I cannot tell the day—it is stated here May the 14th, 1866, in his writing—my name is also on the note.
Cross-examined. Q. You have known the prisoner many years, I believe? A. Ever since he was a boy—twenty years—I never heard anything wrong about him before—I believe he has been a traveller for some of the first West-end tailors—I have cashed a good many notes for him.
MR. BESLEY. Q. There is another note there with your writing on it? A. Yes, I also received that from him.
WILLIAM HOPKINS . I am a turf commission agent in Oxenham Street, Haymarket—I see a note here which was in my possession—it has thename of A. Wright on it—I do not know whether I received it from the prisoner—I think I have seen his face before, but if it was him he is very
much altered—I generally put on a note the name of the person I take it from.
WILLIAM BLOOMFIELD (Policeman A 248). I apprehended the prisoner on the 21st September outside his house—I told him he was given into custody for uttering a forged bill for 130l.—he said he was very sorry—it was through Lieutenant Burgess, of the 72nd Royal Highlanders, that he did it. GUILTY of uttering. — Confined Fifteen Months .
Before Mr. Recorder.
MR. HOUSTON conducted the Prosecution, MR. THOMPSON defended Collins, and MR. CLARKE defended Allen.
ISABELLA RISK . I am a widow, and live at 4, Mount Terrace, Hercules Buildings, Lambeth—I keep a stationer's shop—I have known Collins for about six months—on 23rd June last he came into my shop and produced a cheque—he asked me to cash it—I said, "I did not understand such things"—he then said he would not have asked me if Mr. Jennings, of the "Pine Apple," had been at home—this is the cheque (produced and read)—"London, June 23rd. 199. Messrs. Adams, Nash, & Co., Bond Court House, Walworth, pay to Mr. Allen, or bearer, 4l. 15s. Joseph Neate & Co. (endorsed) Mrs. Risk (and crossed) & Co."—I did not cash it: I could not do it—he asked if I could get some one to do it for me—I sent the girl with him to Mr. Groves, Lower Marsh, where my husband had worked for sixteen years—he gave Collins the money in return for the cheque—the cheque was returned to me on the following Wednesday—I had to pay the money on the Thursday following to Mr. Groves.
Cross-examined. by MR. THOMPSON. Q. The "Pine Apple" is close by you? A. Close—Collins lived a few doors from me—he has been a customer of mine ever since I have been there, six months—I believe he had asked me to cash a cheque previously—I don't remember whether I could not.
HENRY JENNINGS . I keep the "Pine Apple" public-house, Hercules Buildings, Lambeth—I know Collins—on 2nd of June he brought this cheque for 2l. 10s. to me (produced)—he asked me to cash it—I did cash it for him on the Saturday—this was dated June 22nd, 1856, on Messrs. Adams, Nash, & Co., Bond Court House, Walbrook; payable to Mr. Walford, or bearer; signed Joseph Neate & Co.; (marked) London and West-minster Bank, Bloomsbury; (endorsed) Charles Collins, (marked) N. E.—I paid it in on 5th June, and it was returned to me on Wednesday marked, "No effects"—I sent for Collins—he came, he said he was very sorry and he must pay it—I said, "You have endorsed it, and of course I look to you for it "—he has not paid it—I called at 163, Strand—there was no one living there of the name of Neate—there were brass plates out-side the door with Neate & Co. on them.
Cross-examined by MR. THOMPSON. Q. How long have you known Collins? A. About three years—the person who lived at the chambers in the Strand was examined at the court—I have cashed some cheques for Collins, but not on Neate & Co., in other names—they have always been paid by the bankers before this—I cashed this cheque on the credit of Collins's name—I have been in that neighbourhood four years—I believe Collins has carried on business in Lambeth for several years—the name
of Neate & Co. was on each side of the door of 163, Strand—I only know that they are manufacturers of hairbrushing machines from the brass plate, and from his card.
Cross-examined by MR. CLARKE. Q. You mentioned a card being given you by Collins? A. That was the card of Neate & Co.—Neate & Co. was on the card of 163, Strand, and Southampton—I went into the house, and upstairs—the offices were all closed—I found nothing but the plate on the door—this was about a week after the cheque was returned to me—Collins said he would pay me, but asked me to try to get it from Neate & Co.
JAMES AYLING . I am cashier and accountant to Adams, Neate, & Co.—Joseph Neate & Co. had an account at that bank—it was opened in the beginning of February this year—they had no drawing after, I think, 12th April—30l. was drawn from us about 12th April—there were no assets there after that time—I have not my books here, but I can tell from memory, as his drawing account was principally for discounted bills—bills for 280l. were returned on 2nd June—there was then no money at all.
Cross-examined. by MR. THOMPSON. Q. Neate & Co. carried on business at 163, Strand, I believe? A. Yes—Neate has become bankrupt—I know Neate's writing—these cheques are in Neate's writing—I think some bills fell due up to 24th June—I believe they were returned as forgeries—before giving credit for the bills we made the usual inquiries, but we did not go to the parties and ask them—I should think we have had bills to the amount of 360l.—Neate carried on business at Southampton before coming to London—I have never been to his place of business in the Strand—I only know from hearsay that they had town travellers.
Cross-examined. by MR. CLARKE. Q. How long have you known Neate and Company? A. The first time was at the opening of the account in February—I recollect seeing Allen there once—he did not call exactly on Neate's business, but something connected with Neate's business—I know him as a person connected with Neate—we give our customers credit for three-fourths of the amount of the bill discounted—I believe two bills were brought in after the 12th April—we did not discount them—they were not honoured—if they had been honoured there would not have been sufficient to cover our debt—if they had been honoured, and there had been more than sufficient to cover us, we should have placed the balance to Neate's account.
JOHN SHUTES (Policeman 123 L). I took Collins into custody on the 4th September—I told him I was a constable, and should take him into custody for passing two fictitious cheques—he said, "But where is the warrant?"—I said, "With my inspector"—he said, "But where is the inspector?"—I said, "Standing at the 'Rockingham' public-house"—he said, "I will go as far as that with you, but if you don't produce the warrant I will not go further"—Allen was with him at the time—they were living together—Allen said, "Don't go with him. He has not got a warrant"—I told him not to interfere with me in the execution of my duty—I called a constable in uniform, and asked him to assist me in taking Collins—Collins said, "There's no necessity for that. We don't want a constable in uniform. I believe what you state is correct, that you are a constable"—he then walked quietly with me to the station—Allen came up on the first examination, and gave evidence on behalf of Collins—he said he received the cheques from Neate, as an agent, in payment of salary, and that he got Collins to cash the cheques for him, and that after he had
received the money for the cheques it was given over to him—Collins was remanded for a week, and at the next examination Allen was not present—at the third examination he came up again, and after he had made some statement (I cannot recollect the words he said) he said to me the Magistrate was not to leave the Court till I got a warrant for the apprehension of Neate, and he would render me every assistance to apprehend Neate—instead of staying to render that assistance he went away with Neate—they went away together—I was close behind their heels, but not quite close enough to get a clear view of them—I got a gentleman from 163, Strand, to come forward at the police-court—I took Allen into custody on Saturday evening, the 15th September—he said nothing—he was then going in the direction of Neate's house.
Cross-examined. by MR. THOMPSON. Q. Did not Collins make the same statement as Allen, that he had got the cheque from Allen to cash for him, and gave Allen the money, and that that was all he had do do with it? A. Yes.
Cross-examined. by MR. CLARKE. Q. When you took Collins into custody and you say Allen advised him not to go, were you in plain clothes? A. I was—I had seen the warrant five minutes before—it was at the last examination Allen wanted me to get Neate, and both went away together—I have not been successful in apprehending Neate since—Allen was examined on the 17 th, with Collins—when I took him into custody he said he was only agent for Neate—I asked him where Neate was to be found, and he said he did not know—very few words passed between us—Collins's brother was with me at the time. NOT GUILTY .
MESSRS. SLEIGH and STRAIGHT conducted the Prosecution, and MR. RIBTON the Defence.
ALEXANDER LUDLOW KENNEDY . I am a painter, of Thackeray Square, Streatham—on Thursday, the 20th September, I was at the Surrey County Lunatic Asylum painting in No. 2 Ward in the gallery, between six and seven in the morning—I saw the prisoners there and a person named Tite—he was in bed in a cell when I went into the ward, in a little bedroom which leads into the gallery—the door of the room was open—I could see into the cell—I don't know the number of it—there was nobody else there when I went in, but the attendant or warder of the ward (Sims) asked Tite to get up and dress himself—he refused to get up—Sims fetched him his clothes, and put them into the cell for him to dress himself—the two prisoners went into the room, but who assisted the man to dress I cannot say positively—while he was in the act of getting up, dressing, he came out and said that he would strip himself before the doctor and show his marks—when he was dressed he came out of the cell and went into a recess—there was a settee there—he laid on it and coughed, and tried to spit—it is just at the corner of his own room—I thought he was going to vomit—he then went and sat on the settee on the opposite side of that recess—he then got up and swore, and made use of bad language, saying he would strip himself before the doctor, and he would be the death of the first b—he came across—he walked along the gallery at my back, to-wards No. 1, and took hold of a chair—I did not see him raise the chair to strike any one—I turned round in an instant, and found the prisoner
Burton trying to throw him down—he threw him down on the ground—Morgan came in just at the time the whistle was blown—Sims blew the whistle, and Morgan was in the act of coming into the ward from the laundry—he had been out—it is correct that Sims and Burton were in the ward—Sims blew the whistle, and Morgan came from No. 1—there are two doors leading from 1 to 2—Burton threw Tite down, somewhere about the same time that Morgan came in—it was done so quickly when Morgan came in—he fell on the man Tite, and punched him with his fists—he went down on his knees—I will not attempt to say whether it was accident or wilful—he was down on him on his knees, and striking him on the body with his fists—I cannot say where his knees were—they were close to him—I did not take particular notice of the position of the men—Burton was at the man's head—he had got his head down, holding him by the back—I never counted the blows—he might have struck him a dozen times, or less—the blows were struck about the body, about the breast.
Cross-examined. Q. I may take it, I suppose, that you don't know anything about the fight between the two lunatics on the night before? A. No, I can see that plan, that is the gallery—I was on an oblique direction to No. 10—I was towards No. 1 way—I was working opposite the next room to No. 2—I was at work at the door which opens into the gallery—the door was open, and I had got my back turned to the gallery—I did not see everything that took place in No. 10—I did hear the lunatic use violent language; he said he would strip his b—self, and show himself to the doctor—he swore very much—he was excited, of course—it was after he left the cell that he threatened to murder anybody who came near him—he refused to get up—he went into the recess alone—I was still at No. 2—I did not feel at all alarmed—he could have struck me with the chair as well as anybody else—there was a chair standing near the glass door, very handy—he seized that chair—how he took it up I cannot say, I did not turn round to look—Sims, the attendant, then blew the key, which acts as a whistle—I turned round and saw Burton throw Tite down, and Morgan came in at the door and fell on him and punched him—Sims was close handy when I saw the man seize the chair—we commenced painting in that ward on the Monday morning—I believe this was the fourth day we had been there—there were other painters at work; one was in the room directly opposite Tite, that would be No. 4, that was a man named Conn; the other was at the fireplace—this was between six and seven in the morning—the first time I talked about this was on Saturday morning—this happened on the Thursday—my mate Conn talked about it when we got out to breakfast, and we said we did not think it was right, we thought it was ill-treatment—no notice was taken of it—the conversation was renewed at dinner-time—we did not tell it direct to anybody, but there was a man sat in the shop at work who has been there for a number of years, and it appears that he afterwards made a report—he is a bricklayer—I told the doctor on the Saturday when I was sent for.
MR. SLEIGH. Q. Do I understand you to say that Sims was there till you saw the end of this violence? A. Yes, he was not many feet off—I cannot say exactly—he had quite the same opportunities of seeing as I had, more so, he must have seen—for the last twelve months I have been in the habit of working in the different wards, and I have never found one man interrupt me in the least—the lunatic Tite is a small man, considerably smaller than Burton or Morgan.
on 20th September in doing some work at the County Lunatic Asylum—I went to work about ten minutes past six in the morning—I was working in this gallery No. 2 at the fireplace—I could not see into Tite's room from there—I had a full view up and down the gallery—between six and seven in the morning, while at work, I saw Tite walking about the gallery in an excited state, and he walked towards the end of the gallery, took up a chair and raised it over his head—the next instant the door of the gallery opened—a patient entered, and an attendant, Morgan, afterwards, who rushed at Tite and threw him down—he put his knee on his stomach and punched him the ribs—he struck him four or five times, but the whistle was blown, and the other attendant came—Burton and Sims were there at the time this was being done by Morgan, and Hunt came afterwards.
COURT. Q. Who were the other attendants who came in when the whistle was blown? A. Burton and Hunt came in after the whistle was blown—Sims was in the gallery.
SLEIGH. Q. While Morgan as you say was punching him in the ribs, what was Burton doing? A. He appeared to me to be holding him down, he was on the floor—the whistle was blown when Morgan threw him down, and then it was that Burton came in—I did not see Burton till then—he might have been in the gallery or he might not before the whistle was blown—when Burton came in Morgan was holding the man down and punching him—I then saw Burton at the patient as he lay on the floor—I did not see him till he got to the patient—I did not see Burton come into the hall—I saw him when the whistle was blown, at the patient—I suppose he came from his own ward, but I did not see that—he belonged to the ward at the end of the gallery—when I saw Burton I think he was holding the patient down, he was at his head—I could not see through him, he was between me and the patient on the floor—I saw him holding the patient down—at least I suspect he was holding him down—he was lifted up by Burton then thrown violently on the floor again by those two men—they lifted him up again and took him into a room—I then heard somebody fall, but I could not see who—I heard the patient begging pardon, and begging for mercy, twice or three times—Sims was present when this was going on—he belonged to the ward—he saw all that was going on.
Cross-examined. Q. Was it he who blew the whistle? A. I don't know who blew the whistle—the lunatic was very much excited, very much when I first saw him with the chair.
COURT. Q. What do you mean by very much excited? A. In a passion—he was using threats and swearing.
MR. RIBTON. Q. Did you see him take the chair up? A. Yes, I saw him brandish it over his head, saying what he would do to the b—s—he said he would do for them b—s the first opportunity he had—he had the appearance of a wild maniac, certainly—I don't suppose he would have hurt me—I have known him for three or four or five years as a patient in the asylum—this was not called the refractory ward—he was a patient who was violent sometimes—I don't know who the patient was who came in with Morgan—I suppose Morgan was in attendance upon him—Tite had the chair over his head, and was uttering threats when Morgan came in—Morgan immediately rushed at him, and they both went down together—the chair went out of Tite's hand—Morgan did not take it out of his hand—Sims was present then, and Burton came in when the whistle was blown—they lifted the patient up to take him into the room—he was still very
violent, in a wild excited state—he was hallooing—he was not threatening when they were taking him into the room—they were obliged to take him in by force—it was two or three minutes after he had been in the cell that I heard him begging their pardon—they all three helped to take him in—it was a very short distance—they carried him in.
MR. SLEIGH. Q. What was it you heard him cry out in the cell? A. He said, "Have mercy, have mercy," two or three times—it was one of these two cells that they carried him into—I can't say which (pointing to Nos. 10 and 11 on the Plan).
WILLIAM CONN . I am a painter, of Streatham—on 20th September I was working at the Surrey County Asylum, No. 2 ward—I was at work at No. 4, opposite No. 10—the door of No. 10 was open—I could see into it—the first thing that attracted my attention was the patient hallooing—I turned round, looked into the cell, and there saw Morgan kneeling on the patient's ribs with both his knees, striking the man with his right hand on the breast, and holding him by the throat with his left—this was between six and half-past in the morning—I heard Tite complaining of the ill-usage he received—he got up and stood on the floor, and said that he would pull his shirt off and show the doctor—then Morgan threw him again, and rammed his head on the floor, and the blood flew out of him on to the floor—he knocked the blood out of the side of his head—while this was going on Burton and Sims were standing looking on—this took place in the cell—I then saw Burton take Tite by the back of the neck and drag him to the sink—a very little while afterwards I heard a whistle blown—within a few minutes—it was all done in a few minutes—when Burton took him to the sink I heard a choking sound, like a man being half strangled—Sims and Morgan went towards that way, but whether they went to the sink or not I cannot say—after that I heard the whistle blown—I came out, and I saw Burton take the patient by the back of the neck and throw him on the ground three times—I could not say what Morgan was doing then—I was so upset that I cannot say whether I saw Morgan or not—Tite was then put into his cell again, I believe by Burton—I could not be positive—I could not say exactly whether it was by Burton alone, being upset—I could not say with certainty.
Cross-examined. Q. You did not see this affair of the chair then? A. No—I saw nothing done with a chair—I was at work inside—I don't recollect seeing the man who was at work at No. 2—I was not aware he was there—the two first rounds commenced in the cell where Tite was—there was Morgan and Tite, and Sims and Burton were looking on—only Morgan and Tite were in the cell—Sims and Burton were standing looking on at the door—I could see between them—I saw Morgan kneeling on the patient in the cell on the floor—the patient was naked—it went on I suppose five or six minutes before the patient came out—he came out dressed—Burton was with him then, and took him to the sink—they were there perhaps four or five minutes—I did not see them come out of the sink—the next I saw was Burton take the patient by the back of the neck and chuck him down on the floor—that was in the gallery No. 2, near No. 1—they were close to No. 1 door—I know now that Kennedy was at work at No. 2 cell—I was not aware that Fraser was at work—the patient was not violent until after he had his walloping.
COURT. Q. Was he violent at any time? A. I never saw him violent, not at all, not till after Morgan and Burton had done with him. MR. RIBTON. Q. Not till after he was brought out from the sink?
A. Yes, he was violent in his room, because he said, after the first round, "I will pull my shirt off, and I will show my body to the doctor," and then Morgan threw him down again and hit his head on the floor, that was when the blood spurted out of him, not from his eyes or nose, only from a scratch—the blood came out of his head from the ramming on the floor, from his eye and his forehead—I have never said anything about blood before—I was never asked the question—I did not see them beat him again when they got him into the cell—they put him in, and locked him in—that was after they brought him from the sink—I have been working there since June—I am only a casual hand—I never saw any cause for beating Tite—he used threatening language afterwards—not in the cell—I never heard him there—he said he would kill the doctor, and so he would the attendants—he didn't say anything about a fight he had had the night before with a patient of the name of Burgess—it was after all was over that he threatened to kill the doctor—not in the cell, in No. 2 gallery—Tite told me that privately—I had a private conversation with him—he said so in the gallery after this affair, when he was sitting in the recess lamenting his pain.
COURT. Q. I thought he was left locked in the cell? A. Yes, but he was let out again, and he sat in the recess—he was let out after the head attendant and the doctor had gone through previously, and taken out into the airing court—that is what made the man mad—I could not say exactly the time that was.
MR. RIBTON. Q. You had some conversation with him you say? A. I asked him how he felt—I am not aware that it is contrary to the rules to talk to a patient—we speak to them all who are able to speak—they are more friendly with us than with the attendants, I can assure you—I had a conversation that morning with Fraser and Kennedy after it was over—I said, "Come away, or we shall see murder committed"—that was in No. 2 gallery—I did not hear that Tite had seized Morgan by the private parts till I got to Wandsworth Police-court—I came out of the cell where I was at work in consequence of hearing the whistle—I don't know who it was blew the whistle—Burton led the patient back to his own cell—I could not say whether Burton was with him alone or not—I was that upset at the time I could not say—I could not say whether there were three men taking him or one—he went quiet enough—I heard no violent language—I am sure Burton was taking him—he put him in and locked the door—the others might have been there then for what I know—I should not like to say anything wrong—my reason for saying nothing about the blood before was because I was not asked the question.
MR. STRAIGHT. Q. Just look at that plan—you see No. 4? A. Yes, that is where I was at work, inside the cell, when they took Tite to the sink—I went back into the cell—I remained there till I heard the whistle blown—about a quarter of an hour perhaps elapsed from the time I saw the first occurrence till the time I saw Tite brought back to the cell—I could not say for a few minutes—when I heard the whistle I came out of No. 4, looked this way, and saw Burton throwing the patient down on his back—he remained outside the cell till he was put into his room again.
ROBERT MICHAEL . I am head attendant at the Surrey County Lunatic Asylum, at Wandsworth—this (produced) is a copy of the rules and regulations which is handed to the warders on their entrance, for their guidance—a copy was handed to each of the defendants on his entrance—I served the copies personally—Burton was a warder about four years, and
Morgan about seven months—a person named George Tite was a lunatic in the asylum—I believe Sims was the person who had the charge of the ward in which Tite was—it was the duty of the prisoner to assist Sims, if he required them, certainly—on the morning of the 20th September I saw Tite in the airing yard—I saw him first at six in the morning in bed—he was then asleep—I inquired about him, in consequence of having heard something that had taken place the previous night—I did not speak to him then—I saw him at nine o'clock in the yard—he was limping about, and very much bent—in consequence of some communication he made to me, I spoke to Burton—I stated to him that I heard that he was concerned in the affair which took place between six and seven that morning, and asked him to let me know what it was—I stated to him that I had heard there had been a disturbance in the ward in the morning between George Tite and his attendant, and that he had been called to assist and was present the whole time, and I wished to know the whole particulars of it—Burton then stated that he saw George Tite in the adjoining ward in an excited state, and that on heating the alarm whistle given he went into the ward to assist the attendant Sims, who was then in charge of the patient—he said that Tite had a chair in his hand, and was threatening to strike somebody, and that he along with Sims went to take the chair from him, and that a scuffle had then ensued between the three parties—he said that he did not use any more force than what was necessary to place the patient in his own room—when I said to him that Tite had received very considerable injuries, and that something more than mere restraint had been resorted to, he said that he had not done anything more than what he considered to be necessary for placing the patient into a single ward—that was all that took place between me and Burton—I had no conversation at all with Morgan—I saw Burton frequently about the asylum about seven and nine in the morning—I did not see Morgan until nine o'clock—Burton made no communication to me previously to my speaking to him—it was Sims's duty to have stated the occurrence that took place to me—I have been seven years head attendant in the asylum—I have not heard the evidence given here to-day.
Crossexamined. Q. How long had Burton been in that employment? A. Four years—I have had no complaint to make against him—the men who are taken there have approved characters, or they would not be taken—they do not go through a period of probation—we do not, as a fact, prefer men of great physical strength—we take small weak men—they are not all refractory patients that we have—it is a matter of selection afterwards as to the warders—No. 2 ward is not a refractory ward—the refractory ward is No. 3—Tite was not a refractory patient—he had been so when he was subject to fits—I mean to say distinctly at that time he was not a refractory patient—I heard there had been a disturbance between Tite and Burgess—not a regular fight—Burgess knocked Tite down—I do not know where he hit him—I did not see it done—that was merely on the report of Burton—Burton told me that Tite had had a row with Burgess—that was not at the time that I had the conversation with him; it was earlier in the morning—I know that he refused to dress in the morning till something that was in his clothes was given to him.
MR. SLEIGH. Q. Were you present? A. Certainly not, it was merely represented by Burton.
MR. RIBTON. Q. Did you know a patient named Burgess? A. Yes—he was not a refractory patient—some patients are occasionally very violent.
MR. SLEIGH. Q. You say Tite was not a refractory patient, except when he had fits; how long previously was it that he had had a fit in which he displayed any violence? A. He had not had a fit for six weeks before that—up to this time he had conducted himself quietly—he was not sleeping for some nights previously in the same ward with Burgess—Burgess belonged to No. 3 ward, and George Tite belonged to No. 2—they had not slept together before this for a very considerable time—Tite did not always sleep in that place—he slept in there on Wednesday night—he had slept there on the Tuesday night.
GEORGE WELLINGTON GRABHAM . I am medical attendant at the County Lunatic Asylum, Wandsworth—about half-past nine o'clock on Thursday morning, the 20th September, Tite came and asked me to examine him, and I did—he had rather a severe abrasion on the cheek bone, and various bruises on his body, the worst of which was over the breast bone, and his mouth was very sore—he complained very much of the inside of his mouth—I did not see any laceration, but his gums appeared swollen—I think they were in such a state that blood might have flown from then an hour or two previously—his mouth was so sore that I ordered him beef tea for his dinner—the bruises were very lightly apparent at that time, but a day or two afterwards they became much more developed—he was bruised on the hips, and he complained of his right arm, but there was nothing of importance to be seen on the arm—I think some of the bruises must have been inflicted as recently as that morning—the discolouration of a braise is usually complete in about six hours after, if it is not a very deep-seated bruise, and in this case the discolouration was not complete on that morning—my examination was about twenty minutes past nine—I think if the injuries were inflicted about seven o'clock, or a little before, in my judgment that would coincide with the appearance that I saw—the one on the cheek bone I would not be certain about—I think that might have been caused the night before—I will not speak at all positive as to that.
Q. Was any report made to you during that morning by anybody in reference to an act of coercion or seclusion? A. We had no report on that morning, but in the weekly report there was an entry of his having been secluded—this report came in after that morning.
Cross-examined. Q. You only speak with regard to some of these marks? A. I only speak with a certain degree of confidence as to some of the marks, others might have been the cause of injuries the night before—I will say that undoubtedly the one on the cheek bone was—I say it might have been—there was a severe abrasion and contusion besides—there was what they call ecchymosis—he had a black eye, and the skin, was abraded—that would be the result of a blow or heavy fall—I heard of the encounter he had the night before with Burgess—if Burgess had knocked him down by a violent blow that would account for what I saw on the cheek bone—I saw no blood.
COURT. Q. Did you see anything from which blood could have spurted out from the temple? A. Undoubtedly a little blood must have come from the face—the skin was broken—the outer skin was gone, and I have no doubt there had been a slight bleeding from there—that was over the cheek bone—I know of no wound on the temple—I saw nothing from which blood could have spurted out about the head—I did not see any
marks of blood from the gums—I did not see him until after nine o'clock.
Witnesses for the Defence.
GEORGE FREDERICK TOWNSEND . I am an attendant in the Surrey County Lunatic Asylum, in ward No. 3, and have been so for sixteen months—on the night of 19th September last, about seven o'clock, I saw the patients Tite and Burgess together—as I and Morgan were passing we heard a rush and a fall on the floor—I went immediately to the spot, and saw Tite rising from the floor very much excited—Burgess wag in the act of kicking him at the time—I stepped between them and parted them—the contest between them lasted some five or ten minutes—when I first saw Tite he was on the floor—there was a struggle between them—I think they were about equally matched—they were both down—I did not see Burgess kick Tite, he was in the act of kicking at him when I stepped between them and separated them—some few minutes afterwards they got together again, and I saw Burton, Morgan, and Sims with them—Tite was very much excited, and he threatened to kill Burgess the first opportunity he had—they tried to pacify him, but it appeared in vain, and they undressed him and put him to bed.
Cross-examined. by MR. SLEIGH. Q. When you heard the noise the first you saw was Burgess kicking at Tite? A. Yes, in the act of kicking at him; I prevented his actually kicking him—Morgan was present—we took care that they should not do each other any mischief—I did not see any blow struck, they were hugging each other, struggling—I can't say how long they had been fighting before I saw them.
MR. RIBTON. Q. When you first saw them they were on the ground together? A. Tite was on the ground, and Burgess standing up in the act of kicking at him—whether he had kicked him before I could not say—we were bathing patients at the time, and I had to attend to them—the door was open that goes into No. 3 ward, and they got together again—we have troublesome duties with the patients sometimes—Burgess was violent sometimes—I can't say whether they fell at the second encounter.
FELIX SIMS . I am an attendant in this institution, and have been so upwards of three years—I was in charge of the attendants over the patients—on Wednesday, 19th September, about half-past seven o'clock, I saw Tite and Burgess fighting—Tite picked up a log of wood to strike at Burgess, and Burgess, to defend himself, closed with Tite, and they both fell down together—Burgess recovered his feet first, and kicked Tite several times on different parts of the body—they were then separated, and Burgess was taken away—Tite was very much excited—Burton told him to go and sit down, and keep himself quiet—there was a bruise on Tite's cheek, slightly bleeding—he refused to sit down, and we undressed him and put him to bed—we were obliged to use force to do so—I afterwards examined his pockets and found upwards of 2s. in money and a sharp instrument, a piece of steel between two pieces of stick—this is it (produced)—he must have made it himself—I reported this matter to Dr. Anton, the same evening, verbally—I believe Burgess did not receive any bruises—I did not see or hear anything of it—we put Tite into a room by himself, and locked him up—it was not a padded room—he was not so violent as to require that—next morning as I passed his door I said, "Tite, it is time to get up and have a wash"—he gave me no answer—some few minutes later I spoke to him again, and requested him to get up—he did not move, and I went and took the bedclothes off of him, and then attempted to dress him, which he
resisted and refused—at the same time Morgan was passing the door, and I asked him to assist me, and he came to do so—as we were pulling his drawers on Burton was passing—Tite then flew at Burton and caught his arm in his mouth; then, loosing the hold of Burton's arm, he caught Morgan by the testicles—he was very much excited—Morgan left, and went away to the laundry—Burton and I took him away from Morgan, and at last succeeded in dressing him—Morgan cried out for help, and he said he felt sore afterwards—after Tite was dressed he walked to the sink in front of Burton and me, with Burton's hand resting on his jacket collar—I searched him after his clothes were put on—he took the jacket off to wash himself, and after that he went and sat down and was quiet for a minute or so—he sat on a settee in a recess opposite the attendant's room door—he le left the sink and went quietly back to the recess—I am sure of that—he then came to me at the attendant's room door opposite the recess, and asked me for his money and his knife—I told him it was all right, the doctor had it—he made no answer—he was quiet then—he turned away and went to the other end of the gallery, near to No. 1, where there is a glass door—I did not observe that he said anything as he went along—he might have been talking to himself—I saw him pick up a chair, and he stood near the door of No. 1 and said that he would smash any b—man that came near him—he was very violent indeed, and very much excited—just at that moment Morgan came through the door from the laundry, the door near the sink siding with No. 1 glass door—Tite was against the glass door, there was about two feet between the door Morgan came through and the glass door—Tite said, "Now, you b—I will do for you"—Morgan, to defend himself, closed with Tite, and they both fell on the floor—I blew my signal whistle for assistance, and Burton came up immediately; it was his duty to come, he was bound to come—he assisted in taking Tite from Morgan—they were on the ground together—Morgan held him down while I took his shoes off—that was after we took him into the single room—it is not true that Morgan knelt on his chest and punched him in the ribs—Tite was very strong when excited, most patients are—he did not display considerable force that morning—they merely fell together, and then Tite was taken from Morgan—there was a struggle while they were on the ground—when we succeeded in getting him away wo took him to his room—he was violent going along—we merely shoved him before us—he was in front of the three of us, Burton, Morgan, and me—I don't remember that he said anything—when we got him into his room he sat himself on the floor, and I took off his shoes while Burton and Morgan were holding him—he kicked at me once, and he struggled with his feet to prevent my taking off his shoes—I took them off one at a time and threw them on the floor—we only took off his boots, neck-handkerchief and braces—that is a usual thing to do to prevent the patient strangling himself—during the whole time none of us used more violence than was necessary to control him—we merely held him, and kept him from striking us—when they use force to us it is necessary for us to use force—we succeed in quieting them by that means—they are susceptible to fear—I reported the case to the head attendant at the time, directly he was locked up, after the boots, handkerchief, and braces were taken from him—I gave a full report of what had happened verbally—Tite is violent at times—this was one of those occasions.
Cross-examined. by MR. SLEIGH. Q. Do you mean that you reported immediately to the head attendant what had occurred that morning?
A. Yes, I say that deliberately, to Mr. Mitchell—I state that on my oath—I was out of Court when Mr. Mitchell was examined to-day—I have been suspended since this matter—I was aware that there were three persons engaged in the ward painting that morning—I saw them—I saw them at the time this matter was going on, and before and after—Morgan did not kneel on Tite—it is not true that Morgan punched him in the ribs or struck him, or that either Morgan or Burton struck Tite with his fist.
MR. RIBTON. Q. Is it usual, when there is an inquiry in reference to the officers, that, pending the inquiry, they should be suspended? A. Occasionally.
JOHN HUNT . I am an attendant in the Surrey Asylum, in No. 1 ward—I have been an attendant there three years and four months—on the morning of the 20th September, between six and half-past, I was coming across the day room, No. 1, and through the glass door I saw the patient Tite, in No. 2 ward, with a chair uplifted—I had a knife in my hand at the time—I went and put the knife away, to prevent any accident—I heard the whistle and went immediately, and saw Burton with his arm somewhere round Tite's body—by the collision they fell together—I saw them fall—I came out as they were in the act of falling—Morgan took Tite by the hand and he was immediately removed off the floor and taken to the single room—I should say I was six or seven yards off when Burton and Tite came together—I did not take any part in it—I saw Tite carried off with one of their hands on his wrist and the other at the back part of his shoulder—I never saw any more violence used than was necessary to prevent the patient from doing any injury—I saw no blow struck—I continued to see them from the time they fell till Tite was taken into his cell—I am sure that during that time no blow was struck—I could not hear what Tite said, he said something—there was a glass door between us parting No. 1 day-room from No. 2 gallery—he appeared violent and very excited—he was moving his limbs about violently.
Cross-examined. Q. Although you could not hear by reason of the glass door, could you see distinctly through it? A. Yes, during the whole time I was witnessing what was going on there was no blow or kick inflicted on Tite by either of the prisoners.
JAMES MURPHY . I am an attendant in ward No. 1—on the morning in question I was standing at the front of No. 1 day-room door with Morgan—there are two doors leading into No. 2, just where I was standing—I heard Tite's voice in a excited manner talking—I could not distinguish what he was saying—I left Morgan, went in and looked round the corner, and saw Tite with a chair raised above his head; at the same time he exclaimed, "I will be the death of any b—who comes near me"—at that moment Morgan was about to pass me—I said, "Look out, Morgan," and at that instant Tite turned to strike Morgan with the chair—Morgan was going to pass into No. 2—I should infer he avoided the blow of the chair by rushing in upon Tite—he went in with his head down, he made a bob at him, they both fell—they had a scuffle on the floor for a short time, and Morgan became uppermost, and at that time Morgan cried out, "Help, help"—I then saw Burton coming from the direction of No. 3—Sims was standing at the recess opposite the attendant's room—he whistled, and then Burton came along—he lifted Tite up and Morgan let go of him altogether, and they placed him in a single room—I did not see Morgan leaning on his chest and punching him in the ribs—I don't think he could have done so
without my seeing him—there were no blows struck that I am aware of—there was no more violence used than was necessary.
Cross-examined. Q. How long were you looking on? A. About five or seven minutes—Sims did not touch the patient—I saw both Tite and Morgan on the floor—Morgan had not his knees on Tite's chest—that I swear—I did not see see any blow struck—I did not move from the place where I was standing—I was not examined before the Magistrate—I was not at the place then—I have been supoenaed to attend here to-day.
GUILTY. Recommended to mercy by the Jury, on account of the provoking circumstances in which they were placed. — Confined Two Months each .
MESSRS. POLAND and O'CONNELL conducted the Prosecution.
ANN CLAYTON . I am barmaid at the Waterloo Station Refreshment Rooms—on 19th September, about eight in the evening, a bad half-crown was paid to me for two glasses of ale by a man, whom I cannot swear to—I told him it was bad—he said he was not aware of it, and gave me a sovereign—I gave him change—I smashed the half-crown, and gave it to the prisoner the next day—I am not sure whether the prisoner is the man—I am not quite sure that he is not.
EDWIN BALL . I am a brass-finisher, of Windsor Terrace, Islington—on 19th September I saw the prisoner in Westminster, with a man not in custody, who passed something to him, and the prisoner went into the Waterloo Refreshment Rooms and called for something, and gave the bar-maid a half-crown—she gave it to him back, and he went away and took a ticket for Hampton Races at the booking-office—I saw no more of him till about eight o'clock at night, when he went with the other man into the refreshment rooms—I think they came out of the train—I saw something take place—I was there again the following morning, and followed them to Vauxhall Station.
The Court considered that there was no evidence against the prisoner. NOT GUILTY .
MESSRS. O'CONNELL and POLAND conducted the Prosecution, and MR. WOOD the Defence.
FREDERICK WILLIAM GOLDHAWK . I was in August assistant to Mr. Dodds, a chemist, in Westminster Bridge Road—the prisoner came there about the middle of August, for sundry articles, amounting to 1s. 7 1/2;d. he gave me a half-crown—I gave him change and he left—I afterwards took it out of the till and found it was bad—I handed it to my brother, and placed 2s. 6d. in the till for it, and ran after him, but he had gone—there was no other half-crown in the till, only one shilling and two sixpences—I kept the half-crown till the 24th September, when my brother wrote to me for it, and I sent it up to him from Staines, where I was—this is it (produced)—I am sure the prisoner is the man.
Cross-examined. Q. How long has it been in the till? A. Not a second—about a month afterwards I was at Mr. Crowther's; the prisoner came in with a paper for a raffle, and I pointed him out—I had not left my situation then.
JOSEPH GOLDHAWK . I was assistant to Mr. Dodds—I saw the prisoner pass the half-crown—my brother put it in the till, and took it out as soon as the prisoner left—he showed it to me and I found it bad—I afterwards got it from him, but not till I wrote to him—I then gave it to the constable.
JOHN MALLON . My employer keeps a pie shop in Westminster Bridge Road—on 17th September the prisoner came in for fourpenny worth of stewed eels and potatoes, which came to 5d.—he gave me a florin, it felt rather gritty, and I bit a piece out of it—he turned rather red, and said, "What is the difference between a 3d. and 4d. of eels?"—I said, "The difference is that more in a 4d. than a 3d.; what is the difference between a good coin and a bad one?"—I could not give him in charge, as the governor was lying down—I told him if he came again I should chuck him out.
Cross-examined. Q. Were you indignant? A. Yes—I never took bad money before—there were many more people in the shop who I took money from—there was a woman with him.
BENJAMIN PERCIVAL . I am a cellarman in Westminster Bridge Road—I was in this pie shop and saw the prisoner—I saw Mallon bite the coin and give it back to him—I afterwards saw the prisoner in my master's shop—I told my master, who gave him in charge.
Cross-examined. Q. How many people were in the shop? A. Twelve or thirteen—it was just the rush from the theatre—he came to my master's shop for liquor—I saw no money on the counter—the prisoner gave it into Mr. Crowther's hand—I did not see other people in the prisoner's company—I am not aware that his friends had not allowed him to pay the whole evening—he said when the constable was there, "It is too late, I am done"—I did not hear him say to his friends, "I did not know that it was bad, and I shall get out of this"—he had stout to drink—this was on the 22nd, five days after the pieshop afiair—I had not seen the prisoner between the 17th and the 22nd—when I detained him I sent over to the pieshop, and said I had got the man who passed the florin—he was in our house two hours perhaps.
MR. O'CONNELL. Q. Did you see the prisoner come from the bar parlour into the bar? A. Yes, he was in the parlour an hour and a half or two hours—I was there when he came in—I took no money from him, I took some from some of the others.
ELIZABETH SARAH CROWTHER . I am the sister of the landlord of the "New Bridge House" hotel, and occasionally assist there—on 22nd September I served the prisoner with a twopenny cigar—he gave me this florin (produced)—I bit it, found it was bad, and showed it my brother—a policeman was sent for, and the prisoner was given in charge.
Cross-examined. Q. Did it appear a good imitation? A. Yes—I did not hear the prisoner say that he did not know it was bad, and should get out of it—another glass of ale was called for, which his friends paid for—I heard that they had not allowed him to pay for anything that evening—I did not tell him that he was sponging on his friends.
SAMUEL WATTS (Policeman 77 L). On 22nd September the prisoner was given into my custody for uttering this florin, which I received from the proprietor of the house—I received this half-crown from Joseph Goldhawk—when I went into the house the prisoner said, "It is too late, I am done."
Cross-examined. Q. Do you know whether he was alluding to his friends having gone? A. I do not—his friends did not come in while I had him in custody.
Cross-examined. Q. Are they very good imitations? A. The florin is one of the best-made ones, but the half-crown is not.
MR. WOOD called
JAMES FINISTER . I am a mason, of Rochester Buildings, Westminster—the prisoner had tea with me on the night he was taken—we left there and we said if he liked to go to the "Bridge House" we would give him a drink of beer—we went there and would not allow him to pay—I paid for part, and Mr. Hill for another part—I went out with Mr. Hill, and said that I should be back in a few minutes—I came back and found the prisoner had been taken away in custody—I have known him twelve months—he bears a very good character as far as I have heard.
COURT. Q. Did Hill go back with you? A. No, before me.
JOHN HILL . I am a mason, of Rochester Buildings, Westminster—I have known the prisoner for nine months—on the afternoon he was taken I met him in the Westminster Road about five o'clock—we took a cab and went to my lodgings—I did not pay for the cab—I left him with the cab-man—after we had had our tea we went out—we found our way to the "Bridge House" hotel—there were sixteen or seventeen of us—the prisoner offered to pay for beer twice, but I would not allow him—I left the house, and told them I should return in a few minutes—when I returned I found him in custody—he said that he believed he had given bad money, but that he did not know it was, and he thought he should get over it—those are the words—I cannot be mistaken in them—he bears a very good character as far as I saw.
Cross-examined. by MR. O'CONNELL. Q. Where was he standing? A. At the bar—I gave him a glass of beer after he was taken in custody.
COURT. Q. You know him very well, what is he? A. I do not know, I think he is a card painter.
ANN CROCKET . I was with my husband, who is a stonemason, and the prisoner at this public-house—I have heard what the witnesses have said respecting payment—it is correct—I never heard anything against the prisoner's character. GUILTY .— Confined Six Months .
ADJOURNED TO MONDAY, NOVEMBER 19, 1866.
πThe following Prisoners, upon whom the Judgment of the Court was respited at the time of Trial, have since been sentenced as under:
Vol. lxiv. Page Sentence.