CENTRAL CRIMINAL COURT
CUBITT, MAYOR—SECOND MAYORALTY.
THIRD SESSION, HELD JANUARY 6TH, 1862.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE,
TAKEN IN SHORT-HAND BY
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ROLLS CHAMBERS, No. 89, CHANCERY LANE.
THE POINTS OF LAW AND PRACTICE,
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OYER AND TERMINER AND GAOL DELIVERY,
The City of London,
AND GAOL DELIVERY FOR THE
COUNTY OF MIDDLESEX, AND THE PARTS OF THE COUNTIES OF ESSEX, KENT, AND SURREY, WITHIN THE JURISDICTION
CENTRAL CRIMINAL COURT,
Held on Monday, January 6th, 1862, and following days.
BEFORE the Right Hon. WILLIAM CUBITT, Lord Mayor of the City of London; Sir Samual Martin, Knt., one of the Barons of of Her Majesty's Court of Exchequer; Sir James Shaw Willes, Knt., one of the Justices of Her Majesty's Court of Common Please; William Taylor Copeland, Esq., M.P.; Thomas Challis, Esq.; Thomas Quested Finnis, Esq.; Sir Robert Walter Carden, Knt., Aldermen of the said City; Russell Gurney, Esq., Q.C. Recorder of the said City; Sir Henry Muggeridge, Knt.; William Anderson Rose, Esq.; William Lawrence, Esq.; James Abbiss, Esq.; Thomas Dakin, Esq.; Robert Besley, Esq., Aldermen of the said City; and Thomas Chambers, Esq., Q.C. Common Serjeant of the said City; Her Majesty's Justice of Oyer and Terminer and General Gaol Delivery of Newgate, holden for the said City, and Judges of the Central Criminal Court.
GEORGE JOSEPH COCKERELL, Esq.
WILLIAM HOLME TWENTYMAN, Esq.
FREDERICK FARRAR, Esq.
CHARLES GAMMON, Esq.
CENTRAL CRIMINAL COURT.
CUBITT, MAYOR SECOND MAYORALTY.
A star (*) denote that prisoners have been previously in custody—two stars (**) that they have been more than ones in custody—an obelisk (†) that they are known to be the associates of bad characters—the figures after the name in the indictment denote the prisoner's age.
LONDON AND MIDDLESEX CASES.
OLD COURT.—Monday, January 6th, 1862.
PRESENT,—The Right Hon. the LORD MAYOR; Mr. Ald. FINNIS; Sir ROBERT WALTER CARDEN, Knt., Ald.; Mr. RECORDER; Sir HENRY MUGGERIDGE, Knt., Ald.; Mr. Ald. ROSE; and Mr. Ald. WILLIAM LAWRENCE.
Before Mr. Recorder.
MR. METCALFE conducted the Prosecution, but the prisoner stated that he wished to plead guilty; upon which the Jury found a verdict of GUILTY . Recommended to mercy by the prosecutor.— Confined Twelve Months
PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months.
161. JOSEPH CHAPMAN (17) , Feloniously forging and uttering a request for the delivery of goods, with intent to defraud; he was also charged on two other indictments with the like offence; in all at which he
PLEADED GUILTY to the uttering.— Confined Nine Months
162. GEORGE JOHNSON was indicted , with the said Joseph Chapman, for feloniously forging and uttering a request for the delivery of goods; he was also charged on four other indictments with like offences; to all of which he
PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Nine Months.
JOHN BENSON . I live at 10, Norfolk-street, Strand—on December 17th I was on my way home, in St. Paul's Church-yard, and the prisoner came up to me—I pushed her away, saying, "Keep off," but she caught my chain in her left hand—I seized her right hand, and instantly two men assaulted me at my back—I kept hold of her till I got a policeman, which was a considerable time, but I held her the whole time—the chain was worth 8l. or eight guineas.
Prisoner. Q. Did not you come up to me and ask me to go with you and have a glass of wine? A. Certainly not—I saw the chain go from your hand to one of the men who attacked me—he said, "Good God, what is all this about," and you gave him the chain—here is the swivel; it was pulled quite straight—you would hare bad the watch but it was a very deep pocket.
JOSEPH MCDONALD (Policeman). Mr. Benson gave the prisoner into my charge—be had hold of her—he said that she had snatched a chain from his waistcoat pocket—she said that she did not—she refused to give me her address.
Prisoner's Defence. This gentleman caught hold of me in St. Paul's Church-yard, pulled me into an entry, and put his hand where I did not want to have it.
GUILTY .— Three Years' Penal Servitude.
164. CORNELIUS TRIPE (30) , Embezzling and stealing the sums of 8l. 3s. 3d., 7l. 8s. 6d., and 2l. 11s. 2d; also, 2l. 6s. and 2l. 19s., which he had received on account of George Baker, and another, his masters; to which he
PLEADED GUILTY . *— Four Years' Penal Servitude.
The prosecutor stated that the prisoner's deficiency amounted to upwards of 200l.; he had also been previously convicted and sentenced to seven years' transportation.
165. WILLIAM COX (19) , Feloniously breaking and entering a certain chapel, and stealing therein a box and other articles the property of William So ward, and 5s. in money, the property of Frederick Alexander and others; to which he
PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months.
PLEADED GUILTY .—Recommended to mercy.— Confined Four Months
MR. PARK conducted the Prosecution.
THOMAS GRACE . I am a carrier, at 12, Caroline-place, Bays water—about 4 o'clock on 16th December last, I was in Little Moorfields with my cart—my attention was called by a Weight hanging on behind the cart and feeling the cart tilt—I looked round and saw the prisoner hanging on behind the cart—he lifted a bundle out of a basket that was in the cart—directly I looked round and saw him he dropped the bundle back in the cart and ran away—I ran after him and caught him in Liverpool-street, and gave him into custody.
Prisoner. I did not know what I was doing, I was intoxicated. Witness. I think he appeared as if he had been drinking; he ran very fast.
SARAH CRIPPS . I am in the service of my aunt, Mrs. Gold, a laundress, at Notting-hill—on 16th December I was with Mr. Grace, in his cart; going up Little Moorfields I felt the cart go back—I looked behind and saw the prisoner at the back of the cart—he had got his hands on the bundle, and when he saw us looking at him he let it go back again—it contained some sheets and other articles—they had been delivered by me to Mr. Grace to carry.
me; I turned and saw the prisoner running, followed by the prosecutor—I stopped him, and the prosecutor gave him into custody for stealing the bundle—I took him to the station—he refused his name and address—he appeared to be quite in his senses, not drunk.
The prisoner was further charged with having hem before convicted.
JAMES BRETT . I produce a certificate (Read: "Middlesex; John Wells convicted on hit own confession, December, 1859, of larceny; confuted Six Months.")—the prisoner it the person—I had him in custody.
Prisoner. Q. How can you swear I am the man? A. By seeing you three times; when I took you into custody, when you were remanded, and on the day of your trial—I am sure yon are the person.
GUILTY.— Confined Twelve Months.
PERRY PLEADED GUILTY .
MESSRS. METCALFE and ORRIDGE conducted the Prosecution.
ALBERT DAVIS . I am secretary to the London and Westminster Lean and Discount Company, carried on at 62, St. Martin's lane—I know the prisoner Palmer—in August last I received from an agent of his a proposal to borrow 400l.—I did not we him about it until some short time afterwards—I ultimately saw him—he called at the office about the middle of August, in answer to an application that had been made by his agents, Messrs. Miller and Tucker—I then told him to send back a further security—he had proposed his mother-in-law, Mrs. Maria Perry—I told him that was not sufficient—be then proposed a bill of sale upon her furniture, but that was not deemed sufficient and was declined—he then proposed Miss Emily Perry as a surety—he gave the address 6, Boyle-street, Saville-row—that proposal was put before the directors, and they granted it upon all three parties, giving a bill of sale, Mrs. Maria Perry, Mr. Palmer, and Miss Emily Perry—I next saw Palmer about 1st September, I think, at the office—the bill of sale was executed on the 2d—when he came on the 1st, he made an appointment for the parties to come and complete the transaction—I believe he brought an inventory of Miss Emily Perry's furniture—he then left and came again on the 2nd with the prisoner Marsha Perry, and his mother-in-law, Maria Perry—this is a promissory note and this a bill of sale (produced)—I was present when they were executed—I saw them signed in Palmer's presence—Martha Perry signed "Emily Perry," and Maria Perry was signed by Palmer guiding her hand, and then Palmer signed, after the other two—I have since seen Emily Perry, who lives at Boyle-street—I knew that Palmer was her brother-in-law then—upon these being signed the money was advanced.
COURT. Q. To whom? A. To Mr. Palmer; it was paid for his use—the money itself was not handed to him—a previous bill of sale was paid off on his furniture—all parties gave bills of sale.
MR. ORRIDGE. Q. What is the name of the person to whom the money was paid? A. Mr. Best—the prisoner directed me to pay it to him; he went with me to pay it—I paid it in his presence.
Cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH. Q. You advertise, do you not? A. We do; not for money to be lent by private gentlemen—the interest was 150l. for three years—the amount was 400l.—it was 12 1/2 per cent on the amount—there was a man in possession at Palmer's house under a previous bill of sale, at the very time he sought to raise this money; and this money was
paid to Best to have the execution in the house—I don't think there was any person present besides myself and the prisoner, when he called upon me—he gave the name of Miss Emily Perry, 6, Boyle-street—it is our habit when a man gives the name and address of a person, to go and make inquiries—I did not do so, another party did—he is here—I did not ascertain that the person who has pleaded guilty, lived there with her—I have since ascertained that that is so—they are sisters—the money was to be repaid by monthly instalments—the first instalment was not paid—we held 18l. in hand, for a quarter's rent at the house he was then residing—we paid ourselves first with the 18l.—I handed 350l. 15s. 6d. over to Best, 20l. to Messrs. Head and Patterson by his direction, 5l. to Messrs. Miller and Tucker, his agents, and 18l. in rent, detained in hand, 2l. 5s. for stamps on the bills of sale, and 12s. registry—the first instalment was due on 3rd October, and he asked for ten days—I did not promise it to him—I told him to get a letter signed by all the parties making an application to the directors—no letter came in—I believe it was on 6th November when we look proceedings, two days after he called requesting further time.
MR. METCALFE. Q. As soon as yon found it was a forgery, did you apply for a warrant? A. Not directly, I think it was placed in the solicitor's hands.
ROBERT MCKENZIE (Police inspector, F). On Monday, 9th November, about half-past 10, I executed a warrant at 6, Boyle-street, Saville-row—I found Martha and Maria Perry there—Martha was sitting in the kitchen, and the mother came in shortly afterwards—I took them both—a statement was made by them—next morning I went to Sloane-street, the residence of Palmer—he was not at home, and I left a constable there—about 1 o'clock on that day, the constable brought Palmer to the Bow-street station—I told him he was charged with uttering a forged bill of sale, and a promissory note in the name of Emily Perry—Martha was sitting in the station when he was brought in—he said nothing to me—I called Martha up and asked her to repeat the statement that she made to me last night—she then said, "I was induced to sign the bill of sale by Palmer; he said, 'They won't know you from your sister Emily, or know about my going to Australia'"—I said, "Do you hear that?"—he said "Yes, I do, but it is false."
JOHN SHORE (Policeman, F 146). On 10th December, I watched the house, 38, Sloane-street, and I saw Palmer come out and go in there—I followed him in through the shop into a room—I found him in a room with his wife—they jumped up and pushed me through a glass door—I was in plain clothes—I had not to them what I came for—Palmer then got out into the shop, and I could not get it open for some time—I took him in custody and took him to the station—I told him what I took him for—on the way to the station he said he knew one sister had signed the other's name, but he did not think they could make forgery of that.
Cross-examined. Q. He did not know what you had got, whether it was a warrant or what you call a ca sa? A. No; he did not know what I had got.
MR. SLEIGH (to ALBERT DAVIS). Q. Upon 7th November did you tell Palmer that you had found out that it was not Emily's signature? A. Yes; and he replied that he could swear that it was signed with Emily Perry's consent.
MR. METCALF. Q. That was after he was taken into custody? A. No; after possession had been taken under the bills of sale.
I went to the Isle of Wight leaving my house in the care of my sister, Martha Perry—neither this note nor this bill of sale is signed by me, or by my authority—Palmer is my brother-in-law—about the middle of August, before I left town, he asked me to become security for a loan, and I refused.
Cross-examined. Q. How long have you lived in that house? A. Between six and seven years—my sister Martha was not present when he made that request—he only made it once—I do not remember it being the matter of conversation between him and me on various occasions—I had been security for him before—he might have asked me one time and he might have asked me another; his wife asked me once—it was about eighteen months before that that I had been security for him—it was to a loan society, for 50l.—I signed a promissory note on that occasion—I did not execute a bill of sale on that account—Martha Perry was taking care of my house—she does not live there always—I believe Palmer in August last, took an inventory of the goods in my house, but not in my presence—I knew of it when I came home sometime after, when I received a notice from the company—Martha has always taken care of my house when I have been out of town—I have ascertained that Palmer took the inventory, by their having the bill of sale; that is all—I have been security for him several times; always to loan societies—I have been in the habit of becoming security for him for the last four or five years, I cannot exactly say—my sister Martha has always been in the habit of transacting business for me—I give her leave always to do in my absence—she has authority in my absence to use and sign my name—she had no authority to sign this promissory note, but she thought I would not object to it—she did not know there was any harm in it—she told me afterwards she thought she had done wrong—she was crying very much—she has not signed promissory notes of this kind for me—she has injured my house for me—I gave her authority to do that—I know a Mr. Tapp—I believe she did on one occasion sign a promissory note for me in favour of Mr. Tapp.
MR. METCALFE. Q. Was that by your direction? A. Yes; I expressly directed her to sign that particular note, but not this one—when I spoke of my sister signing my name for me, I meant for different kinds of things—I cannot exactly say what she signed—I left her to carry on the house, and with authority to sign for that purpose—I gave her no authority to sign such documents as these—Palmer applied to me on the day before I left town, and I refused—the loan for 50l. that I have spoken of, was the last that I signed for him, before they had this—I had to pay some part of that loan—there was no execution put in upon that, but I was taken up—that was the last before his application to me—I have not yet paid the whole of that 50l. but I am paying it—I paid the best part of it down, and the other at a mouth.
MARTHA PERRY (the prisoner). I am the sister of the last witness—I was left in charge of her house—the name of Emily Perry on this note and bill of sale were signed by me—Mr. Palmer asked me to do so—I do not know the day of the month on which, he asked me—it was more than a week before I signed it—he came in and asked if I would go and sign a paper—he said that my sister had promised that I might do it, as I might sign the papers—I knew not what papers—I afterwards went to the office to sign the papers, as he told me it would not matter as they knew not my sister from me, and it would not be of any consequence, as no one would hurt me for signing the name, as it was merely a security to say that he did not move his goods, or go away to Australia—I went then to the office and signed the
papers—before signing, the young man came into the office and gave the papers to us—he asked if we understood—Mr. Palmer replied, "Yes"—I did not understand the papers as I knew nothing of them—Palmer was there when I signed the name of Emily Perry, and my mother was there, but she could not read—he was aware that I did sign the name of Emily Perry, but the young man in the office did not ask my name, or I should have told him the truth—I never received any money at all—I left the office before my mother or Mr. Palmer signed the paper.
Cross-examined. Q. When was it that you made up your mind that you would plead guilty, and give evidence against your brother-in-law? A. I do not know—I have been in court during the whole time my sister was examined—I have been in the habit of signing her name for her, as far as trades-people go—I have never signed promissory notes for her before this—I did not hear her say that I had signed one to a Mr. Tapp—I never signed any for Mr. Tapp—I never signed "Emily Perry" for my sister, that I am aware of, to a promissory note, or a promise to pay Mr. Tapp money—I did not bear my sister swear that I did—I say that it is not so—I never signed any promissory notes—I never had anything to do with endeavoring to raise money for Mr. Palmer, my brother-in-law—I know that my sister has been security for him repeatedly—I have never gone with my sister on the business on any of those occasions, or with my brother-in-law—I remember his coming to the house and taking an inventory of the furniture—I do not know what day of the month that was—it was in August, some time before this occurred—he took an inventory of the things from the second floor to the kitchen, which I told him of—he could not go into the rooms to see—I did not know that, just before that he had been in conversation with my sister Emily, except by what he told me—when he came he told me that she had given me authority to sign—my sister was in the Isle of Wight when he took the inventory—I was acting for her in the house, as I do when she is out of town—I do not know what time she returned after that—it was sometime after—it was three weeks I think—I did not then tell her that my brother-in-law had taken the inventory—I was afraid to tell her, because I thought she would scold me for doing so without her consent—I believed Palmer when he told me that my sister had authorized my doing it, but when she came back I was afraid to tell her, because he was in rather poor or cumstanoes—sometime before she came home I believed that she had not promised—I was in the habit of writing to her—I wrote to her some days after the inventory was taken—not till after I had signed the promissory note—it was on 2nd September, I think, that I signed the papers—he took the inventory a few days before that—I wrote to my sister about four days after I had signed the papers at the office—I did not say one word about that matter in the letter—about a day or two before she came home I began to disbelieve the statement that Palmer had made—that was some weeks afterwards.
MR. METCALFE. Q. You say you signed some bills, or things of that sort, for your sister; I suppose you signed such papers as she told you to sign? A. Yes.
PALMER— GUILTY .— Four Years' Penal Servitude.
MR. METCALFE stated that the prosecutors were anxious to recommend the prisoner Perry to mercy, believing her to have been a dupe of Palmer.
PERRY— Confined Three Months.
NEW COURT.—Monday, January 6th, 1862.
PRESENT.—Mr. Ald. ROSE, and Mr. COMMON SERJEANT.
For the case of Annie Vinten, tried this day, see Kent Cases.
~OLD COURT.—Tuesday, January 7th, 1862.
PRESENT—Mr. RECORDER; Mr. Ald. ROSE; and Mr. Ald. ABBISS.
Before Mr. Recorder.
MESSRS. METCALFE and LLOYD conducted the Prosecution.
HURT BENSON STEWART . I am an officer of the Indian army—on 10th December I had arranged to meet a lady in Cork-street, who was coming there in a cab—I had some money to pay her—it was half-past 5 o'clock—the prisoner drove her cab, and when I drew out my purse to pay her the prisoner was standing in the pathway, almost touching me, under the light of the street lamp—I had ten 5l. notes in my purse, which 1 had received that afternoon at 2 o'clock at the Bank of England—I saw them in my purse when I held it under the light of the lamp, to pick the silver out—the lady attracted my attention by asking me what the cabman's fare was—I told her about 2s.—I shut up my purse without thinking, and put it in my pocket—it was a porte monnaie—the notes were in one compartment, and the silver in the other—I walked away, and about five yards from the cab met a gentleman who I knew—I stopped and talked to him, and while doing so the cab drove away—I then went into a shop to buy something, and missed the notes—I went back, and searched the gutter, but could not trace them—I had taken the numbers of them—these six produced are six of them, the other four have not been notified to me as having been passed into the Bank of England yet—I told the prisoner to drive the lady to Oxford-circus.
Cross-examined by MR. PHILIPPS. Q. Did you know the lady intimately? A. Tea—she is not here, she is in the country—I was talking to her for five or ten minutes, standing on the foot path—the cab was drawn up to the kerbstone at the corner of Old Burlington-street, and the prisoner was standing on the footpath close to me—he did not go to his horse's head—he may have left my side for about a yard, but he was close to me when I paid the lady, because the money I paid her was to give to him for his fare—he turned his head to me when I paid her—I did not stop talking to her more than a minute after I paid her the money—nobody passed that I noticed—my conversation with the lady was not so intent that I could not notice—I am not going to swear that nobody passed—I heard no one speak to the prisoner—the notes were in a porte monnaie rolled up like this—at present I am living in town; I am obliged to be in town on account of this case, my actual residence is in the country.
MR. METCALFE. Q. Do you go to the East India and United Service clubs in town! A. Yes; I breakfast and dine there, and make it my residence while in town
was a police-constable—he said, "I expected that"—I asked him why—he made no reply, and I told him I had come to charge him with stealing ten 5l. Bank of England notes—I asked him if he had passed one at the "Ambassador" public-house, as I had traced it from the Bank to him—he said, "Yes, I did not steal the notes, I found them; I saw the gentleman kick them; and thought it was a bundle of cattle-show bills, and pot it in my pocket, and I did not know it was not, till I got home"—I had not said any thing about any gentleman before that—he told me he had passed another at the "Globe" public-house, Gray's-inn-lane, which I found was true—I did not find the notes—I traced some of them to him; and at the police-court next morning, he told me he had passed four more at Mr. Bailey's, Thomas-street, Oxford-street
Cross-examined. Q. How long hare you been in the police-force? A. Nearly six years—I will swear he said, "The gentleman," and not, "A gentleman"—I have not made any inquiry as to the prisoner's character at Scotland-yard, I did not think it ray duty to go—the prisoner applied for his badge, but we always detain it until a case is decided—it is not usual for us to apply at Scotland-yard to see a book relating to badges—I told the prisoner if he liked to apply to the Magistrate, and he liked to let him have tile badge he could have it.
MR. METCALFE. Q. Do you know that the prisoner as a cab driver ought to take things which he finds, to Scotland-yard? A. Yes.
JOHN FOLWELL . I am a licensed victualler of 1, York-road, King's-cross—on 10th December the prisoner came there, and I gave him change for a 5l. note—I did not take the number of it, nor do I recollect it, but I should know it again—as far as my judgment goes that is the note, No. 83450.
Cross-examined. Q. Have you known the prisoner some time? A. Some months—I never heard anything against his character—he was rather the worse for liquor when he came into my house he presented a 5l. note, and asked me for the change, and being a neighbour, I changed it.
COURT. Q. What time was it? A. About half-past 9 or 10 o'clock—I did not write on the note, but he put a large "S" in signing it, and that is on it
ELISABETH BAILEY . I live at 3, Thomas-street, Oxford-street—one day in December, at the beginning of the cattle-show, the prisoner came and paid me some money which he had owed me for four years—he paid me with four 5l. notes—them are them (selecting them)—he owed me 20l.—he paid me no money besides.
Cross-examined. Q. How do you know that these are the notes? A. By these names that are on them.
COURT. Q. When were they written? A. They are written by the person to whom I paid them, and I know that the notes I paid to these persons are the notes I had of the prisoner.
MR. PHILIPPS. Q. Have you known him many years? A. Twenty years or more, it may be—his character during that time has been good, steady, respectable, and honest.
Cross-examined. Q. Did you issue them yourself? A. No; I produce them as having been paid in.
MR. PHILIPPS contended that there was no proof that the Bank had paid these notes to Captain Stewart. The COURT was of opinion that that was immaterial, as Captain Stewart swore they were the notes which he received.
(The prisoner received an excellent character.)
NOT GUILTY .
PLEADED GUILTY .
CHARLES DAVIS . I live at 94, Broad-street, Ratcliffe, and am an ironmonger—the prisoner is my apprentice, and has been so about four years—he sometimes slept on the premises—on the evening of 24th December, I locked up the premises myself—I left nobody in charge—I gave the keys to the prisoner—he was outside the premises, going to leave, going home—on the morning of 26th, in consequence of some information, I went to the premises, and discovered there had been a fire—I observed that a great number of paintings had been stolen from the place, and the place had been set fire to in two places—a basket of straw bad been brought up from the cellar, and placed behind the counter in the shop—I am quite sure the basket of straw was not there when I left on the night of 24th—another basket of straw bad been placed under the table of the room above, and set fire to, that had burnt through the flooring—it was placed under the gaspipe—about 50l. worth of stock was injured altogether—there was a barometer also missed—I next saw the prisoner on Friday morning, the 27th—he did not appear on the 26th at all—on the 27th he came to his work as usual—I asked him if he knew anything about the fire and robbery, and he affected astonishment, and said he knew nothing about it—I told him to open the shop and get on with his work as usual—in the afternoon I went to his lodging with Serjeant Stimpaon, 2, Snow-hill—I went on the following day again, and I saw some paintings found there in the cellar; two of them I had missed—they were safe at my place on the 24th—they were wrapped up in a sheet—I then came back to my place where the prisoner was—I asked him what sheet that was—he said it was off his bed—I know this key (produced)—it is the key of the outer gate—I lost it about a month or three weeks before the fire, and had spoken to the prisoner about it, I dare say twenty times, but he denied all knowledge of it—when the gate is shut, the street-door might be left open—a person could not get in with that key alone; the street-door must be unlocked first, then they could get in with this key at any time.
JOHN STIMPSON (Policeman K, 21). On Friday, 27th December, I went to Mr. Davis' shop—I saw the prisoner there in company with Mr. Davis, and heard him say that a man had been dodging him about for five weeks, and he had seen him about nine times during that time; and last week he said he saw the man about five times, pretty well every night during the week; that he came on Tuesday evening, and tapped at the window, and he went out to him, and had some conversation with him; and then he waited about there till he shut the shop up, and after that he took him to a public-house, the Ship and Star, in High-street, Shad well, and there they had a pint of ale, each had a glass; that he gave the man the keys, and the man gave him a half-sovereign—he said the man and his master were formerly friends, and he wanted the keys to look over his goods—the man unlocked the door, went inside, shut the door again, and gave him the keys, which he took to where he had to leave them, two doors off, and that was all he knew about it—he described the man; he said, he was about my own height, or not quite so tall or stout as myself, black whiskers, and had a tooth out in front; but whether the upper or lower jaw he could not say—he said he
was a thinnish man—I afterwards went to the prisoner's lodgings in King-street, with Mr. Davis, on Saturday evening, when these two pictures were found in a sheet behind the door in the cellar—I took the prisoner into custody on Sunday, the 29th, and when I searched him, I found these keys in his coat-pocket—I told him the charge, and he made no reply—he said the man had made an appointment afterwards to see him again on Saturday night, and I went with him to Holborn on Saturday night, to see this man—I was about there some three hours, watching to see if this man should come, and then I went back again to the cellar of the house No. 2, and he pointed out a crevice in the wall, where I found this duplicate, relating to these two other paintings (produced) pawned at Mr. Dicker's, in the name of John Curtis.
FREDERICK WOODTHORPE . I am in the service of Mr. Dicker, a pawn-broker at Limehouse—I produce two oil-paintings pawned at my master's on Christmas eve, by the prisoner, about 10 o'clock—I advanced 3l. on them.
CHARLES DAVIS (re-examined). I have seen the two pictures produced by the last witness; they are two of those that were safe in my house the day before Christmas-day; the other two produced by Mr. Woodthorpe were also safe that day, and the barometer also.
EDWARD DILLON (Policeman, K 19). About 11 o'clock on the night of 24th December, I was passing the shop of Mr. Davis—I saw smoke issuing over the door, and also from the window in front of the house—I looked in the cellar, and saw sparks of fire passing from the shop to the cellar—I knocked and gave an alarm, and went for the fire-engines—a fire-engine was only 100 yards from the place—a fireman came and broke the door open with his axe, and it was soon put out—I went over the house with the fireman—in the first floor over the shop I saw a basket partly burnt, and a quantity of straw—it had burnt a hole in the flooring over the shop—the back and front doors were all secured; there was no appearance of anybody escaping from the house; somebody must have had a key—there was another place where there had been a fire in the shop—there was no connection between the two places, one was in the shop, and one in the floor over the shop; they were two distinct fires.
GUILTY .— Four Years' Penal Sevitude.
JOHN KEMP . I am a fisherman, residing at 125, King-street, Hackney-road—on Wednesday, 25th December, I met the prisoner in Whitechapel, between 12 and half-past, just after midnight—she took hold of my arm—I told her to get away or I would give her in charge—at last she got her hand into my pocket, and I held her till the policeman came up, and gave her into custody—I had 4l. in my pocket, and it was all gone—I did not catch hold of the hand that had been in my pocket; it was the other hand—the money was gone out of my pocket—there were some other women with the prisoner; they ran away when the policeman came—I lost my cap and handkerchief at the same time; it was taken off my neck while I was struggling.
Prisoner. Q. Did not you come out of a house in Thrall-street about
half-past 12. A. No—I had the cap on my head and the handkerchief round my neck.
COURT. Q. Where were you coming from at this time? A. I had come up from Barking; I was on my way home—this happened in Thrall-street, near Brook-lane—that was in my way home.
WILLIAM LOWE (Policeman, H 152). The prosecutor gave the prisoner into my charge—he had got hold of her at the time—I did not see the other women get away—there were 200 people there at the time—the prosecutor said, "This, is the woman who put her hand into my pocket and got 4l."—I heard a cry of "Police" and I ran up—a great crowd had collected—it was at the corner of Thrall-street, a very noted place where there are a great many robberies committed.
Prisoner. I am quite innocent of it. I never saw the man before.
JURY. Q. Was the prosecutor sober? A. Yes, quite sober; he seemed quite collected—he had lost his cap and handkerchief—I think the woman had been struggling with him to get away—when she got up she said, "Leave me loose; I have not got your money"—I never found the money.
JURY to JOHN KEMP. Q. When was the last time you knew you had the money in your possession? A. Half, or three quarters of an hour before—I had not been in any public-house—I had only come up by the rail from Barking to Fenchurch-street Station—the money was safe after I left Fenchurch-street—I walked direct from the station to Thrall-street.
She was further charged with having been before convicted at Worship-street Police-court in May, 1857, and at Clerkenwell in January, 1858, in the name of Mary Ann Thompson; to both which she PLEADED GUILTY.**— Three Years' Penal Servitude.
He PLEADED GUILTY to the second Count, and MR. LEWIS for the Prosecution, offered no evidence upon the first, upon which Count the Jury found a verdict of NOT GUILTY .
MR. HART, the master of Westminster Workhouse, stated that the prisoner had been fourteen times convicted, chiefly for assaults and refractory conduct.
GUILTY.— Confined Nine Months.
PLEADED GUILTY .
PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months.
NEW COURT.—Tuesday, January 7th, 1862.
PRESENT—Mr. Ald. ABBISS; Mr. Ald BESLEY; and Mr. COMMON
Before Mr. Common Serjeant.
PLEADED GUILTY .**— Five Years' Penal Servitude.
MESSRS. CRAWFORD and ROWDEN conducted the Prosecution.
CHARLES JEFFERIES . I am a music publisher, and live at 21, Sohosquare—on 16th September the prisoner came there in broad daylight—I believe it was between 12 and 1 o'clock—she said, "Mr. Jefferies, have you the Dixie's Land Polka?"—I said, "No"—she said, "That is very strange, I buy all my popular music at your shop"—I said, "I am a publisher; if you ask for what I publish you can get it"—she then asked me if I could recommend any pretty little thing—I took up a piece of music which was published the day before, called the Curragh Camp Galop, and said, "This is very pretty, if you take it on my recommendation, and don't like it, you can change it—she just opened it, closed it, and said, "That will do very well"—the price was 1s. 3d.—she gave me a sovereign—I have three bowls in my till; one for silver, one for copper, and one for gold—from the bowl for gold I took a half-sovereign, there being only one there, and put on the counter—she took it up—1 then took out 8s. 6d. and 3d. and while I was doing that she appeared accidently to drop the half-sovereign on the counter—she said, "Dear me, that has a very strange sound, perhaps it is your old counter"—my counter is old and rough—I took the half-sovereign in my hand, and paid, "Bad, very bad"—I called to my son, And said, "George, have you taken a half-sovereign this morning?"—he said, "Yes"—I said, "Who from?"—he said, "From Cramer's collector"—I gave him the half-sovereign to look at, which the prisoner had given me back—he said, "I never took this half-sovereign; I never could have taken such a half-sovereign as this"—she heard that—I said, "Well, the lady gives it me back"—I took a good half-sovereign out of my pocket and gave it to her, and she went away with it, and the 8s. 9d. and the music—I took the other half-sovereign, put it in a piece of paper, put it in a cash box, and kept it so by itself, until about a week or ten days back—I then went to the office of the solicitor to the Mint, at the Treasury, Whitehall, and showed it to him—I made a mark on it, and on 1st December I gave it into the possession of the policeman—my son George had been to the till that morning, but no one else—the till is never left open—I and each of my sons have a key, and the till is unlocked every time it is opened—no other money had been taken out.
Cross-examined by MR. PATER. Q. This was done all in a moment, was it not? A. No; I should think it occupied eight or ten minutes—she sounded the money directly I gave it to her—it sounded as if it was accidentally dropped—I cannot say whether it was at the very moment she took it up; but while I was counting out the 8s. 9d. she appeared to drop it—I had no reason at that moment to suppose that she had substituted one coin for another.
MR. CRAWFORD. Q. Had she been in the habit of dealing with you? A. I never saw her before, although she addressed me by name.
GEORGE JEFFERIES . I am the son of the last witness, and assist him in the shop—I remember a person coming and buying some music in September—I cannot positively say it was on the 16th—I do not think I should recognise her—Mr. Cramer's collector had that day paid me a half-sovereign—I rung it on the counter, and am quite sure it was good—I was satisfied of that at the time, or I should not have taken it—I put it into the bowl in the till, which I locked—it is always locked—I have a key of it—my father, and brother, and myself, each have a key—after that a female came and bought some music—I was called forward, and my father said, "George,
have you taken this half-sovereign," showing me one—I examined it, and said, "Well; I don't think this is the one I took; I am sure the half-sovereign I took was a good one"—the one he showed me was a bad one—I said instantly that it was not the one I had taken—I took it in my hand—it appeared light—it was not the one I had taken of Cramer's man—I swear that—there was no other half-sovereign in the till when I put the one in that I took from Cramer's man—the bad one had a white appearance round the edge.
Cross-examined. Q. What time in the day had you received the half-sovereign from the collector? A. About 1 o'clock, I think—I cannot say exactly—I know it was about that time, because I was called from my dinner—I dine at a quarter past 1—I never dine at 12—if the female came in at 12 it would have been before 12 that I was at dinner—my brother was out of town on a journey—I was in the back shop writing, when my father gave her the half-sovereign—I was called forward—I will swear the half-sovereign shown to me by my father was not the one I received from Cramer's man.
THOMAS HARVEY SMITH . I am clerk to Mr. Tegg, a publisher, in Pancrass-lane—on Wednesday morning, 18th December, about 12 o'clock, the prisoner came there and asked for a copy of "Chesterfield's advice to his Son"—I gave her one—the price was 1s. 6d.—she gave me a sovereign, and asked if I could give her change—I gave her 8s. 6d. and a half-sovereign—I had half turned round, and she rung the half-sovereign on the counter and said, "Dear me, this does not sound very well, I think your board if very hollow"—I immediately picked it up and found it was bad; and not the one I gave her—I am certain of that—I then sent for an officer and gave her in custody—Mr. Lindrum, another clerk, was in the shop at the time when I gave the woman change—I asked him for two half-sovereigns for a sovereign, and he gave them to me—he rung them both on the counter very carefully before he gave them to me, and I gave the prisoner one of them—I had seen her two years previously—it was in consequence of having known her that I asked Lindrum for the half-sovereigns.
Cross-examined. Q. Had you no half-sovereigns in the till? A. No—Lindrum is a fellow clerk of mine—my asking him for two half-sovereigns was all that passed between us—that was the only communication I made to him—I looked carefully at the money I received from him, and saw it was good—I did not look at the date of the coinage, nor did I sound it—I could have got change from the counting-house, and should have done so, but it was to ascertain for a certainty that the money was good that I asked Mr. Lindrum for it—the reason was not because I had no money in the till—1 had half turned round before she sounded it—I gave her the opportunity of keeping that or substituting one for another—I never said that she could not have had time to do it—I did not say it in answer to the Lord Mayor, at the Mansion House—I never said that in consequence of her movements being so closely watched she could not have got rid of the money; I swear that—when she returned, the money I put it in the crack of the counter and tested it—Collins, the warehouseman, called out to me, "Don't do that, for good gold will break"—Lindrum was engaged at the counter with some books—I will swear he was not reading the newspaper—besides Collins there was, in the warehouse, a clerk, named Jay, at the desk—there were several others there besides me and Lindrum—Mr. Tegg was not there—I do not know that the man said, "Good gold will break;" but he objected to my putting it in the counter to try it—I
went with the prisoner to the station, watching her all the time—it was not the half-sovereign I bad given her, but the one I had back from her, that I was going to test—before that I said, "This is a bad one; I know you, you have been here before"—she did not say it was a bad one, but thought it sounded bad, and then I tested it—it was 24th January, 1860, that I had seen her before—I was examined alone on the first examination—Lindrum was present, but was not called—I do not know why—I have no recollection of saying to Lindrum either on the first or second examination, "You will swear that the two half-sovereigns were good that you gave me, as no bad money was found on her;" nothing of the kind—I did not see the prisoner get rid of any more, or substitute one coin for another—the sovereign she gave me was perfectly good.
MR. CRAWFORD. Q. What was the appearance of the half-sovereign she gave you and said was bad? A. It was light, and a bad colour; a peculiar yellowish—I have not the slightest doubt that the half-sovereign I gave her was good.
COURT. Q. Was the half-sovereign you showed to him the same that you had received from the prisoner? A. Yes.
JOHN LINDRUM . I am a clerk at Mr. Tegg's—on 18th December the prisoner came into his shop—I was standing at the side of the counter—she came to purchase a small book, which was 1s. 6d.—Mr. Smith served her with it, and asked me for change for a sovereign—I gave him two half-sovereigns, and noticed at the time that they were good—I rung them on the counter—I did not notice what Mr. Smith did with the money he got from me—I was standing some four or five yards off, at another counter—after she had been given in charge, he showed me a bad half-sovereign in the counting-house, where the prisoner was at that time—I am sure it was not one of those I had given him.
Cross-examined. Q. How came you to ring the coins? A. When I am standing at a counter I generally ring them—I do not always ring them loudly; but I generally do do it—it is a common practice with me—I did not see the half-sovereign tested by Smith, when it was returned by the prisoner—he took it into the counting-house and then returned immediately, and sent for a policeman—I did not see him do anything with the half-sovereign—I heard him sound it on the counter—I did not see him try it on the counter, for I was engaged sorting some books out—the warehouseman called out, "Don't do that, good gold will break"—I can swear that I was not reading the paper—after I gave the money to Smith I paid no further attention to what was going on—I went to the station with the policeman.
HENRY EYRE (City policeman, 445). On 18th December the prisoner was given into my custody at Mr. Tegg's shop—I took her to the station, where she was searched, and on her was found 8s. 6d., a purse, and a basket, and a book, which she purchased at Mr. Tegg's—I received one of these two half sovereigns (produced) from Mr. Smith, and the other from Mr. Jefferies.
Cross-examined. Q. There was no bad money found on her? A. No—she was searched at the station by the female searcher—nothing was found on her—I kept a good look out on the way—if she had thrown anything away I should have observed it—when I went into the shop she was standing in the place where the customers stand—when she was given in charge she said, she had not rung the changes with a bad coin.
—she got half out at the door the first time—I bolted the door after the second time—nothing was said as to the nature of the charge at the time the sovereign was given—I had not enough silver to give instead of a half-sovereign—she offered to fetch a policeman herself—this (pointing one out) is the half-sovereign paid to me—I am used to the handling of gold.
WILLIAM WEBSTER . These half-sovereigns are both bad—they are very bad as to weight, but one is pretty good as to colour—Mr. Jefferies' one is a very light colour, white round the edge and also on the surface.
GUILTY —She was further charged with having been before convicted at this Court in May, 1860, of uttering counterfeit coin, when the teat sentenced to fifteen months' imprisonment, to which she
PLEADED GUILTY.— Four Years' Penal Servitude.
MESSRS. CRAWFORD and ROWDEN conducted the Prosecution.
SUSANNAH CALDER . I am the wife of William Calder, of 362, King's-road, Chelsea, a plumber painter and glazier—I sell crockery—on Tuesday, 12th November, between 8 and 9 o'clock in the evening, the prisoner came and asked for a quart jug, it came to 7d.—she gave me a half-crown—I went to Mr. Ettinger's, a baker's, to get change, and gave her the half-crown—I had said she gave me the change, which I took back and gave to the prisoner, and she went away—next morning Mrs. Ettinger brought me back the half-crown, it was bad—I put it in my purse till 12th December, on which day the prisoner came again, between 8 and 9 in the evening, for a pint jug—it came to 2 1/2 d.—I recognised her—she tendered another half-crown—I fancied it was good, but spoke to a person there, who told me it was bad—I told her she had passed a bad one before—she said, that she had not been in my shop before—I asked her where she lived—she said, "A long way off"—I asked her where she got the money—she said, that a gentleman gave it to her half an hour before—I sent for a constable, and gave her in custody with the two half-crowns, having first marked them.
ANNIE ETTINGER . My husband keeps a baker's shop within two doors of the last witness—I remember her coming to me one day in November for change for a half-crown—I put it in the till, and next morning gave it back to Mrs. Calder—I know it is the same.
Prisoner's Defence. I did not go to the shop on 12th November, and I did not know it was bad.
GUILTY .— Confined Six Months.
SMITH— PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Nine Months.
MESSRS. CRAWFORD and ROWDEN conducted the Prosecution.
at the corner of the Horseferry-road—I called for a pot of sixpenny ale, and put down half-a-crown, two shillings change was given me by the barmaid, which Barry picked up and put in his pocket—I asked him to give me my change, and he gave me two shillings which I put in my pocket—I had no other shillings there—I afterwards called for another pot of ale and put down one of the shillings I had received—the barmaid said that it was a bad shilling, and refused it—she kept it—the prisoners were near enough to hear what passed—I paid for the ale with the other shilling—we all left that public-house and went to Mr. Young's—I was going home, but Barry pulled me into the Royal Oak—we all four went in there together.
Cross-examined by Mr. RIBTON. Q. Do you know Barry. A. He had been working once or twice that week, but not with me—I knew nothing of him—I owed him sixpence—he worked on Thursday in that week—he only worked one day—I said one or two days because I was not certain, but I am certain now—he did not go on the Saturday to see if I could give him any more work—I met him in Horseferry-road, in the street, three-quarters of a mile from the works—he did not ask me for any more work—he asked me for sixpence I owed him, as I had not had enough to pay him—I paid him 2s. 10d., and owed him sixpence—he did not say that he was going to look for me—the women were with him—I do not remember any rum being ordered—I had not been drinking before we had the ale.
JULIA ROWF . I am barmaid at the Royal Oak public-house, kept by Mr. Young—on 11th December the three prisoners came there—I did not notice any one with them—Smith asked for a quartern of rum and hot water, which came to sixpence—she tendered a bad shilling, which I returned to her—she then tendered me another, that was bad also—I said nothing to that, but took it in to Mr. Young—I afterwards told the prisoners that it was bad—they said nothing to me but had some talk between themselves—Mr. Young tried the shilling and bent it, but I did not lose sight of it—Mr. Young stopped Smith as she was going away, a policeman was sent for, and she was given in charge with the shilling.
Cross-examined. Q. Do you know Simpson. A. No—I did not see him with them, he may very likely have been with them without my seeing him, because there were others at the bar.
JOHN YOUNG . I am a plaisterer, and live at 17, Hollywell-street, Westminster—I assist my brother at the Royal Oak—I was there on 7th of December, and, in consequence of something which Julia Rowe said to me, I came out into the bar—the prisoners were in front of the bar—Julia Rowe said, "I have had two bad shillings passed on me"—I saw Smith pass a shilling to Barry who passed it to Carter—I said to Carter, "You have got the shilling, give it to me"—she said, "I have not"—I afterwards saw a policeman take a shilling out of Carter's lap—my brother bent the other shilling, and gave it to the constable.
Cross-examined. Q. Is your brother here. A. No; the barmaid gave him the shilling—I saw him bend it, and give it to the constable immediately after—I saw the constable take the other shilling out of Carter's lap—when Smith passed the shilling to Barry I saw it between her fingers—she did not do it openly, but on one side with her hand below the counter—I was on the other side of the counter, by the side of them—there was no person between them and me.
MR. COOPER. Q. Were you standing on the same side of the counter as the prisoners? A. Yes; Carter was sitting down—there was only room for one to stand and one to sit down, and she had got the shilling in her lap.
RICHARD BARRY (Policeman, B 95). I was called in, and the primer was given in my charge—I took this shilling (produced) out of Carter's lap as she sat down; it is a bad one—I took Smith and Carter to the station, and Mason took Barry—Barry was violent and resisted—Smith said to Barry, go quiet Jim, you know nothing about it; and at the same time she threw something out of her hand into the channel—I made a search, and picked up a bad shilling and a farthing (produced)—I received this other counterfeit shilling from Mr. Young—I saw Barry starched, and a good shitting found on him, and 4d. in copper.
ARTHUR MASON (Police-sergeant, B 15). I took Barry, and found on him 1s. 4d. in good money—he was very violent in Rochesterrow, and Smith turned round and said, "Go quiet Jim, you know nothing about it "—Barry said, "I do not know that I should be lumbered, for I only stood up to pay for the drink that she should not get into trouble.
MR. RIBTON to JOHN SIMPSON. Q. Had not Barry been at work for three weeks? A. No; I do not know his brother—I have not paid Barry on several occasions; only on this Thursday, and then I owed him sixpence.
JURY. Q. What did you do with the bad shilling returned to you? A. They kept it at the bar—he gave me two shillings, one bad and one good—I believe it was one of my good shillings which he had in his pocket.
Carter's Defence. I had something in my apron, and was sitting down; I was not aware that the shilling had been thrown into my apron, or slipped there.
BARRY— GUILTY .— Confined Nine Months.
CARTER— NOT GUILTY .
MESSRS. CRAWFORD and ROWDEN conducted the Prosecution.
JAKE LOCKE . I am the wife of Alexander Locke, a confectioner, living at 106, High-street, Shoreditch—on Friday night, 13th December, the prisoner came about 10 o'clock, and asked for some baking-powder—I told her I had none—she then asked for some tope and bottoms—I said I had not any; she went away—a little time after she tame again and asked for a peanyworth of biscuits for a baby—I gave her thorn and she gave me a shilling—I gave her a sixpence and 5d. change, and she went away—I put the shilling aside in the till till my husband came home—there was a sixpence or two there, but no shillings—a little time afterwards I took that shilling out of the till, and discovered that it was bad—I showed it to my husband when he came home—no one had been to the till meanwhile—I marked it, and my husband, in my presence, wrapped it in paper and put it at the back of the till—on Saturday, 14th December, the prisoner came again, about 4 o'clock in the afternoon, and asked for a pennyworth of biscuits—she said they agreed with the baby—I served her, and she put down a sixpence—I tried it in my teeth; it was bad—it was soft, and bent—I gave it to my husband—I recognised her when she came in—I said, "You came yesterday and gave me a shilling; it was bad"—she said she had not been in the shop before—my husband was placing some goods in the window when she came in—he was near—he tried the sixpence and told the prisoner he should give her in charge—he then handed back the sixpence to me, and she snatched it out of my hand and put it to her mouth—my husband then called a constable; and I told the constable in the prisoner's presence that the sixpence was
in her mouth—the prisoner said, "Wait till I get to the station; I shall not open my mouth"—I gave the shilling to the policeman on the Saturday—there was no other person in the shop when the shilling was passed—I am sure she is the person.
Prisoner. Q. When I first came into your shop, on the Saturday afternoon, was not the policeman in your shop? A. No—he did not walk out of the shop as you walked in—we keep a man who walks up and down before the door canvassing for likenesses; that man was in the shop at the time—I did not lay the sixpence down—I did not say, "I do not think it is a good sixpence"—I did not say while my husband was looking at it, "I think you are the woman that gave me a bad shilling last night"—I did not, when he gave it to me back, throw it in the till among the other money—I did not go behind the counter—I was not behind the counter when the policeman came in.
ALEXANDER LOCKE . I was arranging some things in the window on this Saturday—I remember my wife giving me a bad sixpence; she had bent it—it was very soft—I gave it back to my wife, and the woman snatched it out of her hand and put it to her mouth—she was asked to open her mouth, and she said she would not do so till she got to the station—I called a constable and gave her in charge—there was no constable in the shop before—he was ten or fifteen yards from the shop—when I came back from the police-station I looked everywhere for the sixpence, but could not find it—I am sure she must have swallowed it—her eyes watered as if she had made an effort—I made the remark to the policeman in her presence.
Prisoner. The policeman said he had had many cases like that, and that I had made a bolt of it. A. No; he did not—the policeman said, "Open your mouth;" and you said, "I will not till I get to the station."
EDWARD FLACK (Police-sergeant, G 34). On 14th December, I wait called into Mr. Locke's shop; the prisoner was given into my custody, and I received this shilling (produced) from Mrs. Locke—I asked the prisoner to open her mouth—she said she would not do so; if she was going to be charged she would wait till she got to the station—the female searcher searched her at the station, and on her was found a farthing, a key, and a duplicate—no bad sixpences.
JURY. Q. Were you in the shop previous to the prisoner's being gives in charge? A. No; I was on duty in front of the shop; expressly along that part—when I went into the shop Mrs. Locke was outside the counter, by the side of her husband.
The prisoner's statement before the Magistrate was here read as follows: "I have nothing to say; I bad the sixpence in my mouth."
Prisoner's Defence. When I went in and asked for a pennyworth of biscuits it was the first time I was in the shop; and she stated that she thought I was the woman that gave her the shilling last night I have been very much distressed, but have never gone about with bad money.
The prisoner received a good character. GUILTY of uttering the sixpence.
Recommended to mercy by the Jury.— Confined Three Months
MESSRS. CRAWFORD and ROWDEN conducted the Prosecution.
Walbrook—on Friday evening, 13th December, Coombes and Williams came in—they asked for a pint of porter, which came to 2d.—Coombes gave me a florin, which I tried in the tester and bent it—he then gave me half-a-crown, and I gave him the change—he asked for the florin or a piece of it, but I refused it—Henderson then came in and took the change from him—I gave the florin to Henderson, and he took them both in custody—Betts, the constable, then brought in Wheeler, and they were all three taken to the station.
Cross-examined by MR. SHARPE. Q. Did you bend it to try it? A. Yes; I then kept it in my hand, and afterwards threw it on the slab—there was no other money there—as soon as I saw that it was bad, he gave me a good half-crown; and then he asked for the florin back, or a piece of it.
JOHN HENDERSON (City-policeman, 472). I generally serve in plain clothes—I was with, Betts, in Cheapside, on 13th December, at twenty minutes past 8 in the evening—I saw Coombes and Wheeler walking together in conversation; they passed me and looked at me—they went on for a little distance, and looked at me for a considerable time—in consequence of that, I followed them, and saw them meet Williams a few yards past Queen-street—they all walked towards the Mansion-house in conversation, and at the corner of Charlotte-row, which leads into Walbrook, Williams parted with them, and crossed the road in the direction of the European—the other two men walked in front of the Mansion-house, and returned immediately and went down Charlotte-row, and joined Williams who was there—I remained them, and saw Wheeler put his hand into his pocket, take something out, and hand it to Coombes—they all three looked at it minutely by a lamp-post, and went in the direction of Walbrook—Williams and Coombes crossed over and went into Deacon's coffee-house; and Wheeler went down a little further towards Cannon-street—I and Betts got into the coffee-house and heard the barmaid saying to Coombes, "This is a bad one, I shall not give it to you"—I seized hold of his hand seeing a florin in it, and said, "Give me this, I am a police-officer"—I said to the barmaid, "What has he given you?"—she said, "A bad 2s. piece"—I said, "Mark it and give it to me"—she did so; this is it (produced)—Betts went out and brought Wheeler in—I searched Coombes, but found nothing on him—we got assistance—Williams was placed between two civilians, and we took them to the station—Coombes tripped me up on College-hill—I fell gently on my back, and he on top of me; and as he got up, he jumped twice on my chest with his knees in a violent manner; and when he got up, he made a most desperate kick in the lower part of my stomach, and kicked a gentleman on the thigh—I was very severely injured—I held him by the scarf, and he bit a piece out of my thumb.
Cross-examined. Q. How long did they remain in Charlotte-row, and under the lamp? A. About a minute—I did not see the 2s. 4d. being given in the coffee-house, but he had got it in his hand—I marked the florin at the station, and kept it in paper in my room—another person assisted us in the struggle.
WALTER BETTS (City-policeman, 461). I was with Henderson—I have heard his evidence; it is correct—I took Wheeler in custody, went with him to the coffee-house, and as we went in, he put his left hand into his pocket, and threw something down which I heard jink—I asked a gentleman to hold him, and picked up two shillings (produced) which were lying separately on the ground—I took him into the house, searched him, and found 17s. 1 1/2 d., a duplicate, and a key—I made a further search, and found a bad florin and a bad shilling, wrapped up in a piece of tissue paper, which had been trodden
on and was muddy; I had to feel for it in the kennel—I searched Williams, but found nothing—Wheeler and Williams were not at all violent—Williams and Coombes said that they had no fixed residence—Wheeler gave his address 2, Harper-street—I went there; his father and mother resided there.
The prisoners statements before the Magistrate was here read as follows:— Coombes says. "We, me and Williams, were coming down Eastcheap and overtook Wheeler, and he asked me whether I would buy a pawn ticket; he said he wanted ninepence for it, and all three of us went to look at it underneath the lamp. I offered him sixpence for it, and he would not take it. I then bid him good night, and went across the road to get a pint of beer; I gave a florin piece, and she said it was a bad one; I said I was very sorry, and gave her half-a-crown, and asked her to let me look at it; she gave me 2s. 4d. out, and said she would show the florin to her master; with that the constable came in and wanted to take the money out of my hand, and I would not let him. I asked him what he was, and going along to the station-house, he still tried to get the money out of my hand, and in the struggle he fell, and I fell atop of him, and another gentleman on the top of me, and I was pulled off and thrown on my back; and I asked them to let me get up and walk, as I was choking, and I went to the station."
Wheeler says: "When I left Coombes and Williams, I went to the bottom of Walbrook and leant on a post, waiting for Williams and Coombes to come out and take sixpence for this pawn-ticket, and I saw the constable Betts, coming down the street, and he said there was two men wanted me in the public-house, I said there were no two men wanted me, as there was no one there that I knew, but I would go; and we all three went to the station. I don't know either Williams or Coombes." Williams says: "Coombes wanted me to go and have a pint of beer; that's all I have got to say; I know nothing at all about it."
Williams' Defence. I met Coombes in Cheapside, and he asked me to have a pint of beer; I have not a friend in the world to plead my cause.
WILLIAMS— NOT GUILTY .
GUILTY .— Confined Nine Months each.
PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Six Months more.
OLD COURT.—Wednesday, January 8th, 1862.
PRESENT—The Right Hon. the LORD MAYOR; Mr. BARON MARTIN; Mr.JUSTICE WILLES; Mr. Ald. FINNIS; Mr. Ald. ROSE; Mr. Ald. ABBISS; Mr. Ald. DAKIN; and Mr. COMMON SERJEANT.
Before Mr. Baron Martin.
Mr.PLATT conducted the Prosecution.
about half-past 12, the prisoner came up to me in King-street, Hammersmith, and inquired the way to Brook-green station—I asked her what she wanted at the station—she replied, "I want to give myself up"—I said, "What for?"—she said, "For murdering one of my children"—I said, "Where and when did you do it?"—she said, "At 9, Rebecca-court, Wells-street, Oxford-street, about 6 o'clock this evening"—I asked her how she did it—she said, "By tying a piece of braid round its neck tight"—I said, "What made you do it?"—she said, "For want; I could not see it want for bread any longer"—I then said, "You have told a dreadful story against yourself, is there any truth in it?"—she said, "Yes; it is too true"—I asked whether it was a boy or a girl—she said it was a little boy aged ten months—I asked the name, and she said, "Henry Hamilton"—I then took her to Brook-green station—I asked her whether she had left anyone with it, or not; and she said she had left a little girl about four years old—she told me if I went there I should find it as she stated—as she went on stating this I cautioned her, but she still persisted in saying it was true, repeatedly—I afterwards went to No. 9, Rebecca-court, Wells-street, to a front kitchen there—it was a poor, miserable place; the worst place I was ever in, I think, for a dwelling; I mean in appearance altogether—I found an old flock bed there—there were two children, a boy and a girl—they appeared to me to be about the respective ages the prisoner had mentioned—the elder child was alive; seeing a light it rose up in the bed—it was paralysed on one side—the other little child was lying on the farther side of the bed, and the little girl at its back—it was a wretched flock-bed; this piece of braid (produced) was tied twice round the child's neck tight, and tied in a fast knot under the ear—it is wide black braid—I examined it only so far as to look at that—I sent for a surgeon immediately, and took both the children to the workhouse—I looked about the room; there was not a bit of anything in the shape of food, except it was a dust of salt—it exhibited every sign of great want, in every way—the whole of the bed-clothing there was to the bed was an old, dirty, calico sheet, which I rolled the corpse up in—as we were going from Hammersmith station to Clark's-buildings, the prisoner said to me, "Is the little girl alive?"—she was not with me when I went to the place—I saw her again when I went back to Hammersmith, to take her to the place where the offence had been committed—I took the children to the workhouse, before I went back to Hammersmith—I had no trouble at all in finding her again—when she asked if the girl was alive, I said, "It is"—she said, "I could not hurt it," or, "I did not hurt it," I am not sure which, "as it was paralysed"—she asked me whether her husband knew it, and what time he came home—I told her, "At quarter to 4 o'clock on Sunday morning"—at Clark's-buildings both me and the sergeant who took the charge, cautioned her again—the still persisted in saying it was true—I found it all true, literally as she had stated—she stated at the station she was sorry it was too true.
Cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH. Q. What state did this poor wretched creature appear to be in, when she came up to you? A. In a very melancholy state—I had seen her about three quarters of an hour previously, sitting on the step of a door near—she seemed to be meditating on something; some costermonger going past said to her, "Well, old girl, taking a rest, excuse my asking," and that seemed to break her meditation, and she followed me down King-street—she appeared in an abstracted state, as if she hardly knew what she was about.
—the prisoner is my daughter-in-law, my son's wife—she had two children, one a little girl who was paralysed, and the little boy who is dead—he was about eleven months old—his name was Henry Hamilton—the prisoner's husband is a tailor by trade—he has been very badly off as regards work; for a long time he could get no work—they have been badly off for this last two years, I may say, and it was brought on principally through the eldest daughter's affliction and illness; it was in and out of fits, sometimes a whole week together, lying in the bed, and that brought on the paralysis, and that brought them both into a bad state of health and into poverty—his earnings were nothing some weeks—the prisoner's manner was at all times very silent, reserved, quiet, and inoffensive—latterly she seemed more melancholy and more dejected a great deal—there was a strangeness in her manner, a very great change—she would come into the place and just speak and run out again, and seemed always nervous; you could never get anything but "Yes," or "No" from her—she went out one afternoon and absented herself all night—she went out with my daughter, her husband's sister, and she came home after having what she required there, put the child to bed that was paralysed, which she would never leave at another time for a moment, and there she left it, and travelled from Stacey-street all the way to Sydenham; she arrived at her uncle's at 7 in the morning, having travelled all night, and her husband never saw her till 12 the next night; and through no words, or quarrelling, with the husband—she arrived, with the youngest child, at her uncle's at 7 in the morning, and came back the next night at 12—she had never done that before, but she has done it since—she never left her husband for an hour, without he knew where she was gone—she gave as a reason for going that she wanted to see her uncle—she has got a deal worse since she has been in this distress and terrible—her husband is a decent, quiet man, always ready to work when he can get it—I know, of my own knowledge, that they have been in a troubled state, as regards their lodgings and want of food, for some time past.
GEORGE HEWLETT BAILEY . I am a surgeon, at 25, Charles-street, Middlesex Hospital—on this Monday morning, about 20 minutes to 2, I was called to 9, Rebecca-court—I went into the front kitchen—I saw a dead child there—I should have thought over a twelvemonth old—it was quite dead and had been dead some hours—I examined it—I just merely looked at it, I found a mark of string round the neck with the knot on the right side, under the ear, as if it had been drawn very tight—there was a knot formed on the right side—the ligature had been removed before I came—from what I saw I attribute the death to strangulation—I have no doubt about it.
NOT GUILTY on the ground of Insanity.—Ordered to be detained until Her
Majesty's pleasure be known.
184. ALEXANDER GEORGE GRAY (59), and WILLIAM OLIVER GRAY (26) , Feloniously forging and uttering an endorsed bill of lading, with intent to defraud. Other Counts, varying the manner of stating the charge.
MESSRS. SLEIGH, TAYLOR, and BESLEY conducted the Prosecution.
JAMES WOTHEN POCKETT . I am a wharfinger at Swansea, and the agent there of the steam-boats plying between Swansea and Bristol—I know the two prisoners—they carried on the business of chemical manufacturers at Llandoer, about two miles from Swansea—I do not know who were the partners—I only knew them as "Gray Brothers' "—the elder prisoner is the father of the younger one—the senior prisoner took an active part in the business—the firm was carried on under the name of "Gray Brothers"—I
have been in the habit of receiving casks of alkali, consigned from them to Messrs. Lister and Biggs, to be forwarded by the steamers to Bristol, and for these I was in the habit of signing the bills of lading—I have a clerk named George Ward—the signature to this bill of lading (produced) is the signature of George Ward, my clerk—that was signed on 15th December, 1860—the elder Gray brought it to me—I saw it before it was signed, and I gave Ward authority to sign it—it was not then in the state in which it now is—it was for twenty casks then, and the weight was not entered in the bill of lading—the numbers were not there—after the word "twenty" the word "six," which appears here, was not then on the bill—the body of the bill is in the elder Gray's handwriting, and I believe the word "six" and the endorsement, to be in his handwriting—he promised to send a duplicate in future—this was brought back to us for signature—this note (produced) is in the elder Gray's handwriting—I was not at the office after the 15th—I left home—this must have been received on the Monday; I should think, by my clerk—I was not there on the Monday, I did not find it when I returned from my absence—I found it when we went to investigate into Mr. Gray's papers—I did not see it at the time—it was put with other letters (Bill of lading read: "Swansea, December 15th, 1860. Shipped by Gray Brothers', in the Prince of Wales, bound for Bristol, twenty-six casks of alkali, weight 29l, marked and numbered as in margin, to the orders of the shippers, care of Great Western Railway, Bristol, to be forwarded to Bradford ")—(Note read: "Swansea, December 16th, from Gray Brothers' to Mr. Pockett. Dear Sir, Please to withhold shipment of the twenty casks until further orders, we are sending down fifteen more, which are all for Bristol, that same time")—A duplicate was received at the office a few days afterwards, in my absence—I was from home—I went from home on 16th, and remained away ten days or a fortnight—I afterwards saw the duplicate at my office—it is in the elder Gray's handwriting (produced)—the other bill of lading was for twenty casks—this is for twenty—there are no weights on this—there were no weights or numbers on the other, not when I saw it originally (Read: "December 15th, 1860. Bill of lading for twenty casks of alkali by Gray Brothers', to the port of Bristol to wait order.")
COURT. Q. Look at that word "copy," is that in the handwriting of the elder Gray as well? A. Yes.
MR. TAYLOR. Q. Can you tell us in whose handwriting this is? (Another paper). A. The elder Gray's; that is my signature—it was for eight casks, when it was signed for—it now reads eighteen—I gave no person authority to alter the other from twenty to twenty-six.
COURT. Q. Did you ever give any authority to alter the number of casks in the bills of lading? A. No, never—the endorsement on it is the elder Gray's handwriting.
(Upon MR. TAYLOR proposing to read this document, MR. SERJEANT BALLANTYNE objected; the substantial question in this case was forgery or no forgery, and although to show guilty knowledge, in cases where the uttering was the substance of the charge, evidence of other uttering was admitted, it could not be admissible upon any such ground here, it could only be adduced to show that a man would be more likely to commit one forgery, became he had committed another. MR. GIFFARD, on the same side, contended that upon the broad principle of law the evidence must be confined to the issue, and as the issue in this case was forgery or no forgery, the evidence now proffered could not be received, as it was relevant only to the question of guilty knowledge, and therefore applicable to the case of uttering only. MR. BARON MARTIN was of opinion
that it was relevant to the issue, assuming that issue to be whether or no a forgery had been committed; that if a fraudulent alteration had been made in the document in question, it was relevant to that issue to show that in other documents alterations of a like character had been made, and for this reason that it tended to negative the transaction, being of this nature, viz. that the document being signed for twenty casks, it was intended afterwards to send six more to complete the shipment, and that then the alteration was made for the purpose of covering the twenty-six casks.
The bill of lading was then put in and read; it was dated, 12th January, 1861, and was for eighteen casks of alkali.) At the time I signed that bill of lading it was for eight casks only—I cannot say positively whether the numbers and weights were then inserted—I cannot tell by whom that was brought to me—I have one now in my hand dated 26th January for sixteen casks—it is in the elder Gray's writing and signed by myself—at the time I signed it it was for six casks—I cannot say positively who brought it; sometimes the elder Gray and sometimes the younger; but generally the elder Gray brought them in for signature—it was either the elder or younger prisoner—I have now one of 29th January for fourteen casks—I did not sign this myself, it was signed by George Ward—I saw it before it was signed—I gave Ward authority to sign it—at that time it was for fourteen, and it is fourteen now—it is in the same state now as it was then—this one of 5th February was for four; it is now fourteen—all bills of lading were brought to me before they were signed—I cannot recollect this one in particular; it is signed by Ward—it is for four casks, and the date is 5th February—it is written by the elder Gray—I recollect that from an entry I made at the time; not an entry in a book, an entry on a memorandum—the casks were never regularly shipped—this of 9th February is signed by me; the body of it is in the elder Gray's handwriting—it appears now for sixteen casks; it was for six when I signed it—the endorsement is by the elder Gray; here is one dated blank February—there were six casks signed for on 11th February—I did not sign more than one on the 11th—it now stands "sixteen" casks—it is written by the elder Gray, and endorsed by him—this note dated 16th February is in the elder Gray's handwriting—I received it about that time; I cannot tell exactly to the day—(Read: "16th February, from Gray Brothers, to Mr. Pockett. Dear Sir,—Your carts did not arrive here until half-past 5, when all our men had left off; will the carts come up on Monday? We wish to send down 5 casks to complete two lots of 6 each.")—That letter refers to two lots of six each, on 9th and 11th February, the two bills that have been produced—when I signed this bill I had not received all the goods; we had received some, and they were to send down the remainder to complete the two lots—the date of this one is 14th February, in the elder Gray's handwriting, signed by myself, for fourteen casks; it was signed originally for four; the endorsement is also in Gray senior's handwriting—I gave no authority to alter these documents—during this period there were other bills of lading given than these—I signed them before I received the casks frequently, on other occasions—I had communication with the elder Gray with reference to those other occasions.
Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLAITTTNE, (with MR. GIFFARD for Alexander George Gray). Q. You are a master wharfinger, I presume? A. Yes—I have done business there about twelve years, doing business for other persons as well as the Grays, as a general carrier, to a considerable amount—I kept books for goods when they were brought, and they were always shipped at the time—they were entered when they were shipped—those were the only books I
kept—the manifest book would be a copy of the bills of lading, when regularly shipped—I do not keep any book at my office—the manifest book is at Swansea—the bills of lading were not entered in any book; they were entered upon a memorandum, because the shipments were irregular—all shipments with the Grays were irregular—we never had any trouble with any other shippers—there is no book in which any allusion appears to the bills of lading, only a memorandum—I have not got that memorandum here; it is at Swansea—it was copied up in April—I can't say where it is—I have not had notice to produce all my books in relation to these matters—I have not got the memorandums—they have not been produced since these matters have been inquired into; I swear that; only the book that I have here—that is a copy from the manifest book, when the goods were shipped, of the goods forwarded from the Grays to Bristol, and on the other side is a copy of the bills of lading that were signed—that was made in April last, from some memoranda; they cannot be found—I made the copy myself—the memorandums were left at the office—it was on one sheet of note paper—they used to be entered from other memorandums to that one sheet of note paper—that sheet of note paper was the only record I had—I took the trouble of copying it because Mr. Biggs came down to investigate the matter last April—since that time I have lost sight of the sheet of paper upon which those memorandums were—it was my custom occasionally to send my carts to Grays for the goods—it may be that once or twice I was unable to do so according to order; but I had repeatedly sent up when we could not get the goods—on other occasions we have been desired to send, and could not—I had nothing to do with Lister and Biggs, only with the shippers—my signing the bills of lading was intended to represent that the goods were at my wharf—I have several times signed bills of lading before the whole lot of goods were completed—that was the constant course of business with Mr. Gray—I have repeatedly signed them, and they were made up after, Mr. Gray stating that the goods were in the process of manufacture, that they were not completed, but would be delivered the next day—sometimes he said the casks were there, and we have sent up and could not find any—the representation was not always that the alkali was in process of manufacture, sometimes it was—I have signed for goods certainly when they were not at the wharf, repeatedly—I did not sign the bill of lading for the twenty casks on 15th December—it was signed after I left the wharf, by Ward, by my direction—I won't swear positively whether there more than six at the wharf at that time; but the warehouseman came in and told me there were fifteen—that was the man at the wharf Sambrook—he is not here—Messrs. Lister and Biggs have complained of this proceeding on my part—they complained that the bills of lading were signed before the goods were delivered—they did not threaten to indict me; nothing of the kind—they did not threaten to take criminal proceedings; they threatened to claim for the value of the goods which were not delivered, the deficiency—I have arranged with Lister and Biggs—I have paid them a sum of money—I have not paid it all—I was to pay 300l.; I considered I was not liable; but I was recommended by my friends, instead of going into litigation, to pay their claim—I paid them 300l.—that was not the difference that was due to them in consequence of my neglect of duty—there were other cases besides these—there was a lot of thirty-three casks sent to Bristol, represented to be alkali, which was sold for 4l., nothing but rubbish—that was part that I paid for—I paid rather than get into litigation—it is my impression that all the alkali that went to Bristol was to be forwarded to London
—I have a statement from the agent at Bristol as to how the goods were forwarded—he is not here—I have one duplicate bill of lading here, relating to the twenty-six casks—there are some others at home, nothing bearing upon this—I have no duplicates in relation to any of these bills of lading that have been put in—none—he used to bring a single bill of lading, and promise to send the duplicate in after, and it was never sent in—sometimes we had duplicates and sometimes not—there is not a single duplicate applicable to any one of these cases that I can find—I did not tear up the memorandums in April—they were at the office, and are not to be found—there was no charge of forgery at that time—Mr. Biggs said he was so many casks deficient—I told Mr. Biggs when he was in Swansea, in April last, that there had been alterations in the bills of lading—after that there was a meeting at my office, at Swansea, at which I and the prisoners were present—the three Grays were there—the two Grays who were partners have been made bankrupts—I was at every meeting—there were three meetings—the elder prisoner was not present—I had known him from a short time after he came to Swansea—he was requested to attend the Insolvent Court; but he never came—at the meeting at my office I did not hear him request that there might be an immediate investigation made of every matter connected with this business; all he said was that the bills of lading were correct—I did not hear him say that they were exactly in the state they were at the time I signed them—I have signed for more than I received—I should not have signed for twenty-six just as well as for twenty at that time, because there was a dispute; I refused to sign—I told my clerk to sign for fifteen casks if they were down—I did not take the trouble before I signed the bill of lading, to ascertain by my own personal observation how many casks were there; but I told my clerk, George Ward—he is here—I told him to ascertain how many there were before he signed the bill of lading—I told him to sign for the twenty, not whatever number there were—I said, "Sign this bill of lading for twenty"—it was my impression that there were then fifteen casks there—I suppose Ward had inquired whether there were fifteen—I left him at the office—he signed after I left the office—they were hauling goods down that day—I sanctioned his signing for twenty—I say that at that time it was my impression that there were fifteen casks—I did not know positively; I did not reckon them myself—there was a dispute at that time—the prisoner had promised to send a certain number of casks down in the morning, which he neglected doing; that is the meaning of the dispute—not withstanding that, I have signed for more than were sent, Ward signed for twenty, by my sanction, when there were only fifteen; because the prisoner promised to send the others by the next cart—some of the bills of lading are signed by Ward, and some by myself—I ascertained that they had been altered, from the memorandum that I made an entry of—I made it at the time upon papers as I have told you—we never had any bother with anybody but the Grays; all other shippers were regular in their shipments of goods; with these people everything was done to mystify you—the memorandum I made was on some note paper, which I had in the office, probably, not in any book; any note paper, that came in my way—sometimes a bill of lading would be signed down at my house, and then I would make a memorandum there, and bring it up to the office, and enter it on the other—I did not destroy the memorandum—I thought this would be sufficient, as I had entered them up in the book—they are the memoranda that have been mislaid, and which are not here—I have no means whatever, except from the book, of telling whether there were any alterations in the
bills of lading—the memoranda were not produced at the meeting in the bankruptcy proceedings; the case was not investigated at all then—I last saw them at my office—I looked for them after I returned from the meeting at Guildhall, and could not find them—this book has been copied from the memoranda that I had in April, not from the bills of lading—the bills of lading were not before me at the time—Mr. Biggs had possession of them—he was not present when I copied this—you will see in that book all the casks that we delivered and shipped—the manifest book will correspond with the shipment—I have not got that here—I had notice to produce all papers, but it did not state any particular book—it said all papers bearing on the subject—the manifest book is not here—(looking at a paper) I have not received a notice of that sort.
COURT. Q. Are you the prosecutor? A. No.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Do you mean that you have not heard from Mr. Venning that you were to produce the manifest book? A. He did not say the manifest book; he said, "Bring all papers you think necessary"—I do not remember receiving any notice, except to bring any documents that I had—the bills of lading were not generally sent to me from Mr. Gray, in letters; he generally brought them himself—I have several letters from Mr. Gray—I have not got all of them here—I showed them to Mr. Venning, and he has a few that he thought would be of importance—I brought all letters and papers up with me, and showed them to Mr. Venning, and he had those which he thought necessary for the case—I showed him certain letters which he has possession of—I did not show him the whole, because several did not bear at all upon the case—some were merely, "Send your cart for hauling"—I showed him some which he gave me back—I took them back to Swansea with me when I went back the last time—I think the prisoner came to my office on 15th or 16th December, about the middle of the day; it was in the afternoon—I won't swear to any particular time—our office is open till 10 o'clock at night—it may have been between 3 and 4 that he came—he was in a hurry to go to the bank, for the purpose of getting the advance—the bank closes at 4—it may have been between 3 and 4 that he came—I know it was in the middle of the afternoon—I did not sign the bill of lading myself, because he promised to send more casks down that evening; and I was leaving the office earlier than usual, as I was going from home on the Monday; and I requested my clerk that if Mr. Gray sent the other five casks down, which would make twenty, he was to sign for them; but if not he was to sign for the fifteen, but that I would rather have the other five down—I requested him to sign for the twenty.
Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE (for W. O. Gray.) Q. I believe the works of Messrs. Gray are at Llandoer? A. Yes; they have two offices, one at Llandoer and one at Swansea, about two miles apart—the younger prisoner was occasionally in the office at Swansea—I saw him in and out of that office—the goods were brought up from the Llandoer works.
MR. SLEIGH. Q. With respect to the papers which yon have been asked about, do I understand you that you destroyed those memorandums from time to time? A. No, I did not destroy them; I mislaid them—in the first instance, I made memorandums on pieces of paper from time to time, and subsequently copied from those pieces of paper on to a larger sheet of paper; the memorandums from which I copied were left in the office—I do not know what became of them after I entered them up—I thought the book would be sufficient—having copied them on to a larger piece of paper, they were no longer of any use.
COURT. Q. If I understand you rightly, memorandums were made occasionally at your own house on pieces of paper? A. Yes—I brought those up and entered them on a piece of paper at the office, and afterwards copied from that piece of paper into the book which is here, and that I thought sufficient.
MR. SLEIGH. Q. Just take that book in your hands, and in reference to the bills of lading, which have been put in evidence, tell me what the entries are in that book? A. They are according to what I have stated—the entries in this book correspond with the number of casks that I actually received—they do not correspond with the bills of lading as they have been produced here to-day—they do correspond with them as they were in their original condition—I did sign bills of lading in respect of alkali which I never received—the 300l. that has been spoken of, has reference to the bills of lading—I wished my solicitor to try the case with Messrs. Lister and Biggs, but they thought it would be advisable, instead of going into litigation, to settle the matter with them, because the casks at Bristol were sent up full of rubbish, sent as alkali—they form no portion of the subject matter of the figures—I can tell by the book what number of casks I signed for which I did not receive—(referring) I have signed bills of lading for 189 casks between 15th December and 23rd March—those were the casks that were shipped—in point of fact I only received 186—that includes all the casks that have been mentioned to-day, in the altered bills of lading—I cannot tell you how many casks I signed for previous to 15th December, because it ran over a long time—up to the 23rd of March I signed for 178; up to the 6th of April I signed for 189; from 15th December to 23rd of March, I signed for 171.
GEORGE WARD . I am clerk to Mr. Pockett at Swansea—this bill of lading bears my signature, for Mr. Pockett—I first saw that document on 15th December, before I put my name to it; the elder Gray handed it to me—I cannot say whether Mr. Pockett was present, he was at home—I saw Mr. Gray upon the 15th December—he brought the bill of lading to the office—I occasionally sign documents for Mr. Pockett in the course of business—I signed this document which is in my hand now, from Mr. Pockett's instructions—that was on 15th December, in the morning—the elder Gray came to the office to me rather early in the morning—it was on the Saturday, before dinner, that Mr. Pockett gave me directions to sign this bill of lading—we dine about 1 o'clock—I looked at it previously to signing it—it was then for twenty casks—the word "six" was not there—I cannot say whether these numbers were there or not; I would not swear positively—I do not believe there was any weight filled in the bill at that time—I read from the the margin twenty-six casks—those words were not on the margin when I signed it—I know the elder Gray's handwriting—this bill of lading, dated 5th February, is signed by me—I cannot say whether it was in the same state when I signed it as it is now—it purports to be for fourteen casks—I cannot recollect whether I read it previously to signing it—I signed it by Mr. Pockett's direction—how I recollect the twenty casks so well is, Mr. Pockett was about leaving home on Saturday, 15th December, but I did not take much notice—on 15th December I asked the elder Gray for the duplicate bill of lading, and he said he would bring it—I did not receive this duplicate—I saw it in Mr. Pockett's office on 15th December—there were fifteen casks brought down or were on the wharf at the time that was signed—there were five more casks brought a week or nine days after—the bill of lading was originally for twenty and
is now for twenty-six—I do not know of the other six being brought in respect of that bill of lading.
Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. This occurred in December, 1860, did it? A. Yes—my attention was first called to the question as to whether this was twenty casks or twenty-six, in April last—I saw a memorandum of Mr. Pockett's on the table—my attention was not called to it by any one, no one spoke about it—I saw a memorandum of Mr. Pockett's—I recollect it quite well—I cannot say what Mr. Pockett did with that memorandum—I cannot say that I saw it again—I saw a memorandum—I cannot say what memorandum it was exactly—I saw a memorandum applicable to these twenty casks of 15th of December—I cannot say whether it was in April that I saw it—I saw a memorandum relating to these twenty casks, it was my mistake when I said April, I can't say what month it was in—it might have been before, I can't say—it was about that time I believe—no one was present when I saw it—I can't say how I came to see it—it was on the table, on a slip of paper—that was the only one that I saw then—I did not see any other on the table—there might have been one there and I not see it—I saw the memorandum accidentally—I could not help looking at it when I saw it before me—I did not take it up to look at it; I just looked at it—I did not take any notice of it more than any other papers—I read it, and know what it contained—nothing made me read it more than I should any other paper—I did not read it for any other purpose—I had not been told to look at it to my knowledge; I don't believe I had—I won't swear either that Mr. Pockett did or did not call my attention to it, for I am not positive—he might have done so—I can't say that he did—I can't say what became of it—I believe I left it lying on the table—I don't think I took it up—I just read it while lying on the table—I did not see any other document of any kind—it was lying alone on the table—I just looked at, I did not take notice of it any more than of any other paper—I took notice enough of it to see that it related to this affair—I did not make any note of it—I do not know what has become of it—my master used to keep the particulars of the bills of lading upon that memorandum—he used to copy them off into another book, I believe on paper—he used to take a memorandum of them when signed, and copy them off afterwards—this one was copied off before that—I can't tell how it happened to be on the table; they used to lay on the table after Mr. Pockett had copied them; more than this one—papers lie there for years sometimes—it might not have been on the table all the time, or it it might—I ascertained that there were only fifteen casks, because I went and counted them before I signed the bill of lading, the same morning, before my master went away—I told him there were fifteen, before he went away—I can't say what time he went away—I can't say whether it was before or after dinner—I do not know what he did with the papers from which he copied the memorandum—he used to keep charge of them; I had no care of them—I don't know what he did with them—I saw the altered bill of lading at Guildhall—not before, I swear that—I don't recollect seeing it—I have had some talk with Mr. Pockett about it—he asked me if I recollected how many I signed for, and I said I did—I can't say when it was he asked me that; perhaps a month or two ago or more, I can't say—it might have been six or eight months ago.
MR. SLEIGH. Q. Do you remember Mr. Biggs coming down in April and looking into this matter. A. Yes; but I did not see any bill of lading at that time—the matter was talked about then.
JOHN DESTER . I am the manager of the West of England and South Wales District Banking Company, at Swansea—the defendants carried on business there—we had banking transactions with them—we took bills of lading and made advances for them—this bill of lading of 15th December and the acceptance, were brought by the elder prisoner on the 15th of December, 1860—I forwarded them by post—this bill of exchange which I hold in my hand was brought as well—this piece of paper (produced) is in my handwriting—it was signed by the elder Gray, at the time he brought me the bill of lading, I wrote out this memorandum, and he signed it (Read: "Please to deliver to Messrs. Lister and Biggs the accompanying bill of lading for twenty-six casks of alkali, on accepting the accompanying draft, 13l. 10s;" signed, "Gray Brothers;" directed to "The West of England Bank, Swansea;" dated, "December, 1860")—on the bill of lading, the bill of exchange, and that memorandum being left, we advanced him 50l.—I forwarded the bill of lading and the bill of exchange, by post, to Lister and Biggs—we received the bill of exchange back in course of post, and it was in due course honoured—the proceeds were accounted for to the prisoners—to the account of the Grays, and they drew out the money in the usual course of business—(The bill of exchange was for 131l. 10s., at two months, drawn by Gray Brothers, accepted by Messrs. Lister and Biggs)—it was generally the elder Gray who called on this business, sometimes the other—the younger prisoner occasionally came; sometimes one and sometimes the other, but more usually the father.
Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Is it on the number of casks, or the weight, that you make the advance? A. By the weight—we advanced about 7l. per ton—it would depend upon the weight mentioned on the bill of lading—I don't know how much the casks weigh, they vary—all casks are not the same weight—I have no recollection of receiving a letter from Mr. Pockett, at the time I received the bill of landing.
BENJAMIN BIGGS . I carry on business in Lawrence Pountney-hill, London, in partnership with Isaac Solly Lister—I know the two prisoners—the younger prisoner was carrying on business with his brother under the firm of "Gray Brothers," at Llandoer—the elder prisoner was taking an active part in managing that business, and sometimes represented himself as a partner—we made arrangements as to making advances upon alkali, manufactured by them, and we arranged with the two banking houses at Swansea, to make advances to them—they were to take the alkali down to the wharf, and take the bills of lading to the bank, if they wanted an advance—the alkali came to Bristol by boat, and then by rail on to London to us—on 16th December, I received this bill of lading, dated 15th, from Mr. Dester, and on 17th I received this letter in the handwriting of the elder prisoner—(Read: "December 16th, 1860. Dear Sir, we wrote you yesterday; we have to-day sent down twenty-six casks of alkali, 308 and 333, to the steamer, and have handed bills of lading, and invoice, to Mr. Dester, with our drafts upon you for 131l. 10s., having deducted from the amount the last overdraft, we request you will accept the same promptly, as we have an important bill for ore to retire on Monday.")—The bill of exchange is in the handwriting of the younger prisoner—it came with the bill of lading from Mr. Dester—this invoice is also in the handwriting of the younger prisoner—that was not inclosed in the letter that has just been read, but probably came from Mr. Dester—we returned the draft to Mr. Dester accepted by our firm, and ultimately paid it—it was in respect of an advance against the twenty-six casks of alkali—our arrangement was to
advance according to weight—unless I had supposed there was that weight, and that number of casks, I should not have signed the draft—as far as we understood, twenty casks were shipped as against this particular invoice—I have seen the eight other bills of lading produced, they came to us in the state in which they now are—I have made out an account of the casks received from the prisoners between 15th December and 23rd of March—I have ascertained it by the books, which are all here—I have taken the numbers which I have found on the bills of lading, and have gone through the books to find what we received of them.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Is that a book kept by yourself? A. No; it is not.
MR. TAYLOR. Q. Are you in the habit of seeing it from day to day? A. Yes; and using it in the way of my business, but I have a memorandum in a book which I keep myself, in which I have been in the habit of entering day by day, the quantity of casks received—we advanced upon 291 casks and we received 138—we are deficient 153—that is from 15th December to the close of our transactions, up to, I believe, the 30th or 31st of March—the last cask of alkali arrived some time the beginning of April, but we received no further advices of any being despatched after that—in the early part of April I went down and commenced some investigations.
Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. On that occasions I believe you saw the elder prisoner, and had a communication with him? A. Yes; I afterwards learnt of this forgery from Mr. Pockett—I saw the elder prisoner again after that, on more occasions than one—it was about six weeks or two months ago that I first proceeded against him for forgery—that was after the two younger men had got through the Insolvent Court at Cardiff—it is hardly strictly correct to say that we opposed them there, because I was absent—there was no instructions to oppose them at the last hearing—there were on the former hearing—nobody attended on the last—my attorney was present, but he was there without instructions from me—he was residing at Cardiff—I have not got 100l. from one of them—not a farthing—I appeal to his Lordship—may I ask whether these are the learned Serjeant's instructions; if so, may I be at liberty to say what I think—I say most distinctly I did not get any sum of money—I received 70l. of Mr. Strick, of Swansea, which he owed me, and which was paid me under a threat—shall I explain what it was—one of the acceptances which we had given, was in Mr. Strick's hands, directly I found there was a fraud I went to him at once, he is a respectable solicitor at Swansea, I said, "If you have any property of the Gray's, protect yourself, I look to you for it," and ultimately he paid me 70l. on account of the bill—Mr. Strick told me that he had got a deed upon the elder Gray's furniture—I said, "Anything that covers your debt consider yourself bound to pay me," and I gave him notice to do so—the 70l. that he handed to me was not, to my knowledge, raised upon the sale of the elder prisoner's furniture; I believe it was—that was after I knew of the forgery.
Cross-examined by MR. METCALFE. Q. You received 70l. and also a sum of 10l. I think? A. The bill was drawn originally for 109l. 16s. it should have been 99l. 16s. I refused to accept the bill for 109l. 16s. and Mr. Strick then said, "I will pay you 10l."—we did not receive 70l. at one time, and 10l. at another—our acceptance was only virtually for 99l. 16s. but to prevent redrawing the bill, Mr. Strick proposed to remit us 10l.—that was paid at the time the acceptance was given, before there was any question of fraud on the part of the Gray's—when I went down to Swansea, I had an interview
with the younger prisoner—he followed me up to London—I showed him the bills of lading, and pointed out to him the alterations that had been made—that was on 7th April last—I believe he afterwards came up to London and resided here, I heard so, after he had got through the court—I have no knowledge of it beyond what I was told—I certainly do not know that he was living at 15, Villier's street, Strand, or where he was living—I made no effort to ascertain—he came down to our house and wished to go into the matter.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Did you receive letters from the elder prisoner, between April and October? A. I did; several—I have not got them here—they are destroyed—they were letters soliciting me to go into the investigation of the matter, stating that he was quite unaware what was taken during the last few months, that it was quite a dream—that was the purport of the letter—that was at the time the younger prisoner and his brother were before the court at Cardiff—I believe I received a letter from my partner in London, at Cardiff; indeed two letters, they were virtually, I considered, an admission of his guilt—I destroyed them.
MR. SLEIGH. Q. You say you pointed out to the younger Gray the alterations in the month of April? A. Yes; he followed me to my house, and said he wanted to look into the matter—I said; "What is the use of looking into it, the thing is so self-evident, it is a fraud"—he hem'd and ha'd a little, and I pulled out the bills of lading, and showed him—I cannot say which, except it was the one signed by Neil Brodie—that was a forgery altogether, and he said he had nothing to do with that, it was his brother's doing—the bill of exchange I received from Mr. Strick was dated 1st April, 1861; it has nothing whatever to do with the twenty-six casks, the subject matter of this inquiry—this letter of 12th January from Gray Brothers, is in the writing of the elder prisoner, enclosing a draft of 60l.—this letter of 26th January is also in his writing (this stated that they had handed to Mr. Young invoice and bill for sixteen casks)—this invoice there referred to, is in the handwriting of the younger prisoner—this letter of 5th February, and the invoice of the same date, are both in the elder prisoner's writing—(this was for fourteen casks of alkali)—this letter of 9th Februaay is in the handwritting of another brother, Alexander George Gray, and the invoice also; but the bill of exchange is in the elder prisoner's writing—I believe the invoice is in his daughter's handwriting (this was for sixteen casks)—this letter of 15th February is in the elder prisoner's, and the bill of exchange also—the invoice, I believe, is his daughter's writing.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE to MR. POCKETT. Q. Did you give to your clerk, Ward, a letter to take to Mr. Dester, at the same time, or did you give it to the elder prisoner? A. No, I do not remember any letter at all being given at that time—I wrote to Mr. Dester some time ago to tell him to accept bills of lading in Ward's signature, instead of my own, in my absence—I cannot say whether that was the time I handed over a letter to the elder prisoner to that effect—I do not remember sending a letter on the 15th—I cannot swear to it.
The prisoner, Alexander George Gray, received a good character.
ALEXANDER GEORGE GRAY— GUILTY.—Recommended to mercy by the Jury and prosecutor in consequence of his age and character.
Confined Nine Months.
JOHN OLIVER GRAY— NOT GUILTY .
There were five other indictments against the prisoners, upon which no evidence was offered.
MR. ROWDEN conducted the Prosecution.
ROBERT WEBB BENNETT . I live at 4, Turrett-grove, Clapham-common, and am a commercial traveller—on Friday, 20th November, about 11 o'clock in the morning I was in Parliament-street, standing at a shop door—I saw a cart coming towards where I was looking from, towards Charingcross, from Westminster-bridge way—there was a man driving, walking by the side of his horse, with his whip over his shoulder—it was immediately opposite Trollope and Sons, the upholsterers, just before you come to the corner of Charles-street—the man was walking on the proper side of his horse and cart, on the near side of his horse—he was an old man; he appeared to me about sixty—at that time I saw another cart, it looked like a tradesman's cart; a lad was driving it—I have every reason to believe it was the prisoner—when he came to where this other cart was, he passed it on the near side, that was the side between Trollope's and the wagon, the wrong side—at the time he so passed there was just sufficient room for him to be enabled to pass any vehicle that might be drawn up at the side of the road, just the breadth of the cart—whilst it was passing I saw either the shaft, or some part of the light cart strike the deceased on the shoulder—he staggered and fell down on his face immediately before the wheel of his own cart—the horse was walking, and I saw the wheel pass up his body, and rest on the pole of his neck—the horse then stood still, and he was pinned to the ground in that way—the light cart had, by this time, passed on—immediately after that I saw a policeman come across the road and take the head of the horse that was standing still, and back it off, and I was surprised to see the deceased roll towards the kerb-stone; he was not killed on the spot—the policeman followed the light cart and called the boy back, and he returned—I saw the man in proper hands and went on my way.
Cross-examined by MR. GIFFARD. Q. I think you said the wheel, or some part of the light cart, struck the deceased? A. Yes; I came to that conclusion because I saw the man stagger—I could see by the evident mode of his staggering that something struck him—I did not actually see what part it was that struck him—the light cart was not going rapidly, not unreasonably so; it was on the wrong side—the deceased appeared to turn round as if he knew of something approaching him, and the moment afterwards, or almost at the same moment, I saw him stagger and fall.
MR. ROWDEN. Q. You saw something strike him, did you not? A. No, I did not; but I saw by his manner of staggering that he was struck.
WILLIAM MAIDMENT (Policeman, A 232). On 20th December, between 11 and 12 o'clock in the morning, I was on duty in Parliament-street—I saw a heavy cart coming from Westminster-bridge towards Charing-cross—the deceased, James Ray, was driving it—I also saw a small light cart coming up towards Charing-cross, at the same time—the prisoner was driving it; he was going about five or six miles an hour—I saw the light cart come up to where the heavy cart was, and pass it on the near side, the left side—when it passed the deceased was about opposite the end of his own shaft, or the horse's head—the light cart ran against him, either the fore part of the wheel or the shaft—I saw the cart run against him, and the man stagger; another cart kept the sight from me; and by the time I passed the cart, the man was under his own cart wheel—I was prevented from seeing him fall by the other cart—the cart struck the left side of the man's body, and he fell forward straight across the road, the deceased's own cart wheel then
went on him—I went to his horse's head and backed it off—I afterwards put him on a stretcher, and two other constables took him to the hospital—the light cart drove on I should say about fifteen or twenty yards—I called to the prisoner, and he stopped and came back, and I ascertained his name and address—there was a good deal of traffic in Parliament-street at this time—it was just below Charles-street, on the Westminster-bridge side—the right hand side of the light cart struck the deceased.
Cross-examined. Q. Had the road been Macadamized lately? A. I did not notice.
MATTHEW ALFRED CONOLLY . I was house-surgeon at Westminster Hospital on 20th December, when the deceased, James Ray, was brought there—it was about half-past 11—he was then alive; he was very weak, in a a state of collapse, had considerable difficulty in breathing, and in a good deal of pain—I had him removed to the ward and put into bed at once—I examined him and found he had several of his ribs broken, four at least I should say, on the right side—he was under my care about fifty-two hours—he then died—the cause of death was the wound of the lungs, from the sharp end of the rib having penetrated the lungs.
The prisoner received a good character.
GUILTY .—Strongly recommended to mercy by the Jury on account of his youth and previous good character.— Imprisoned for a week in Newgate.
NEW COURT.—Wednesday, January 8th, 1862.
PRESENT—MR. JUSTICE WILLES; Mr. Ald. CHALLIS; Mr. Ald. FINNIS;
and Mr. Ald. DAKIN.
Before Mr. Justice Willes.
186. THOMAS PUZEY (25), GEORGE REEVES (26), and SARAH COLLETT (40) , Burglariously breaking and entering the dwelling-house of Sarah Green, and stealing therein 11 spoons, 11 forks, a gold watch and chain, and other articles, her property.
MESSRS. CLERK and BEASLEY conducted the Prosecution.
ELIZA ASKEW . I am housemaid to Mrs. Green, of 5, Fulham-place, Paddington, and was so on 24th October—my mistress is an old lady, very infirm—she has not been out of the house for eighteen months, and not out of her bedroom for twelve months—her room is on the second floor—it was my habit to take her supper up-stairs of an evening, not always at one time, but from 9 to 10 o'clock—on the night of 24th October, a little before 9, I went down to the kitchen to fetch the supper—the cook was in the kitchen, and the prisoner Collett—I had ordered the supper beforehand—I was down stairs about ten minutes—I then went up to my mistress's bedroom with the supper on a tray—it was past 9 then—when I opened the door I saw two men in the room—one of them was standing over my mistress who was sitting in a large chair—there was a candle lamp on the table, at the foot of the bed—the other man was standing at the side of the bed, near the secretary—I had not time to notice the man much; it was a tall man who was over my mistress, and I heard him say that if she screamed he would murder her—they both had black masks—I think they were crape—they covered above the eyes, and below the mouth, and quite obscured their faces—I turned round, screamed "Murder," and threw the tray down stairs—the tall man had then returned from my mistress, and was standing with his back
to the fire, with his mask off—I then noticed that he had whiskers—the other man was shorter: I did not observe that he was doing anything—the tall man rushed across the door, and I turned to run away—they both pushed by me two or three stairs, and ran away—they pushed me two or three stairs down, and then I went back to my mistress—I spoke to her—the said, "Go for a doctor," and I did so—blood was running down her head—she was bleeding very much from the head—a doctor afterwards came and a policeman—I did not fetch the doctor—my mistress kept her plate basket under the dressing table in the bed-room, during the time I have been with her, and her watch in a pocket at the foot of the bed—after the men were gone, I missed eleven silver spoons, some forks, a ladle, sugar sifter, tongs, butterknife, and gold watch, with a short chain to it, which was safe when I was up there at half-past 8—I saw the watch in the pocket, and the plate in the room—I had heard no noise—I had seen Collett the night before, and once before that; three times altogether—the first time was about a fortnight before, when she came to the door, and inquired for Lucy, who was the housemaid before me—I opened the door—she said she had heard of a place which she thought would suit her—Lucy left when I came—that was about five months ago—I told her that Lucy was gone away—she asked how Mrs. Green was, and if she had a nurse to sit up with her of a night—I told her that Mrs. Green was very poorly indeed, but she did not have any one to sit up with her of a night—I saw her again on the night before the robbery—some gin was fetched that night, and I was asked to take tome of it by Mrs. Collett and the cook—I saw no gin on the Thursday night—a gentleman named Waite sometimes comes to see my mistress—he was there on the Wednesday night—I did not hear Mrs. Collett say anything about him on the Wednesday or Thursday night—I was asked to take some gin on the Thursday, but I would not have any; and I said that there was none to be fetched—Mrs. Collett asked me when she came in.
Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. (For Puzey and Reeves.) Q. You say that one of these men was a tall man, have you seen him since anywhere? A. I have seen Puzey—I cannot swear to him—I have seen the tall man since to the best of my belief—I saw him at the station—his name is West—I gave a description of him to Steer—I described him as a tall man with whiskers, no colour, dark complexion, and very thin features—I did not give a description of the other man—two men were apprehended a few days afterwards, and it was on that occasion that I saw West—he was shown to me amongst a number of other men—I picked him oat, and said, to the best of my belief he was the tall man whom I had seen in my mistress's room—seven or eight persons were brought out when I picked him out—I did not say to Steer that I was certain he was the man; I said that I believed him to be, but could not swear to him—I was examined before the Magistrate, and heard Steer give his evidence—I don't remember his saying that I picked out West, and said that I was certain he was the man—I did not tell the constable that I could swear positively to West being the man—I said that I could not swear to him—Mr. Lewis asked me, "Did he say anything about swearing positively?" and I answered, "He asked me if I could swear positively, and I said that I believed I could,"
Cross-examined by MR. DICKIE (for Collect.) Q. Was this examination at the Marylebone police-court? A. Yes—Collett was not charged with West—I saw Steer on the night of the robbery, and told him that Collett was in the house, and yet she was not charged—I first gave my evidence against her when the other two men were taken up—that is the first time that I gave the
evidence that is in my depositions—there was no usual time for supper; but it was between 9 and 10—on both the nights that Collett was there I came down for sapper, and took up supper—in going up or coming down for the supper I did not notice anything about the door—I should have noticed if it had been open—when I first went down to the kitchen to order supper Collett was not there, and when I came down to fetch the supper she was—she did not leave the kitchen while I was there—I went up with the supper, leaving her there—I took the supper up, and found the men there—I heard a knock at the door after Collett came in—there had been a boy with some medicine, but I was up with my mistress when he came—Sophy, the cook, opened the door to him—I heard nothing about a fishmonger's boy coming—my mistress said to Sophy that she would not pay the doctor's boy that night, as it was so late—Sophy took the medicine up, and the boy was waiting at the door—I did not see the gin brought in—I did not find it in the kitchen, and I did not know anything about it till the next day.
MR. CLERK. Q. You say you gave a description of the men you saw to Steer; how long did you see this man in the room after he had pulled off the mask? A. Not a minute—there is a keyhole outside the street door—it opens with a latch outside—you can open it with a key from outside—when I went down stairs to the kitchen, I did not take a light down with me—there was a light in the ball on the table.
Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. What is the matter with her? A. She has a rheumatic affection of some standing, and this morning she has an acute attack of sciatica—in my judgment she could not come here without risk to her life, seeing that she has been bedridden for many months.
Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. Before that were they represented by an attorney at the police-court? A. Yes; on each occasion—Mr. Venn's clerk was present when the lady was examined—I gave notice at Mr. Venn's office two hours before the examination—Mrs. Green was examined at twenty minutes to two; half-past 1 was the time fixed.
MR. RIBTON submitted that this evidence precluded the deposition being read, as the attorney had not had sufficient notice to enable him to be present. THE COURT considered that the case was the same as if A had been mortally injured by B, and the Magistrate took the statement of A in B's presence, which statement would be admissible not only as a dying deposition, but as his evidence given before a competent tribunal in B's presence and hearing. MR. RIBTON suggested that in that case the prisoner had never been represented by anyone else, which made it differ from this case where an attorney had taken the case into his keeping. THE COURT considered that Jervis's Act, which was the governing statute here, had been complied with, but that MR. RIBTON could comment upon the facts in his address to the Jury.
The deposition of Sarah Green was then read as follows:—"On the 24th of October, in the evening, I was sitting in this room in an arm chair; Elizabeth Askew was with me. I had a fire and a light in the room. I sent Elizabeth Askew as usual for my supper; I can't say exactly the time. After she left I was dozing in my chair, waiting for her coming up; someone came to me right across from the door; I looked up and saw a tall man with a black mask on. My eye caught the shade of another man; he came
round the foot of the bed, behind the tall man, and came between the bed, and the window; he was shorter than the other man, and netted to be stouter. The tall man began to hit me on the head four or five severe blows with something with a large knob; I think I should know the ball again. I prayed and begged of him to let me be quiet, and if he would take his hand away I would tell or do anything. When I said this he took hold of me by the throat, and pinched me till I lost my senses—I remained so for a minute or so, and then recovered. He came at me again and gave me some more blows on the head, and he caught hold of my throat, and I received a most severe blow in the left cheek, but I can't say from what. He clutched my throat again, and tighter much; I was then insensible, and I don't know any more. I could hear the other man up by the side of the bed, and heard something rattling. My desk was looked, and afterwards I found it broken open; I missed nothing from there. I saw the short man turn his arm and clutch my watch from my watch-pocket, at the head of the bed. My plate was in a basket under the table; I can't tell the quantity missing. One of the men seemed tall aud the other short, and the short one had a loose coat on; this must have made him look stouter. The prisoner Puzey seems to be about the height of the tall one, but I am not certain; the hands are like the man's; they were thin, long fingers. The life-preserver produced is like the thing I was struck with. When I recovered I found the room vacant, and nobody in it. I know the prisoner Collett well; she was employed by me as my nurse last winter; she sat up with me at night; it is seven or eight months ago, or more. She was with me twice; she left and came again. In consequence of my suspicion I discharged her, and gave notice for her not to come to my house. I heard about a fortnight before the robbery that she had been to my house. When Mrs. Collett was here I used to keep the plate in the bedroom, near the window, and my watch was always kept in the watch-pocket, at the head of the bed; she knew that well. I did not hear the men speak one syllable, that I could hear. Sarah Green."
THOMAS STEER (Police-inspector, D) On the night of 24th October, about twenty minutes to 10 o'clock, I went to 5, Fulham-place—I went to the second floor and observed the bannister rails—they were broken down from the first to the second floor—I went into Mrs. Green's room, the second floor front—she was sitting in an arm-chair, and I observed several contusions on her head which were bleeding profusely—I searched the room and found this life-preserver, screw-driver, and black mask, made of crape and brown paper, on the floor—the room was in a confused state—the secretary had been forced open, apparently by this screw-driver—the papers were all turned over—the plate-basket was standing by the cheffonier, and there was one article of plate missing—the drawers were unlocked—I could not detect any marks on the street door—I tested the look of it, and could not find anything wrong—it is a common latch-key lock—Elizabeth Askew gave me a description of two men, which I took down in writing—I then went to the station and had it copied into the books—I found two men, and on the 29th took her down to the Borough.
Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. Have you got the description? A. I have not; I believe Braddick has it—I apprehended the two men on the 29th, five days after I had the description—I was looking out for them from the time I received the description—I did not take them myself—they were identified by Askew—they had been taken by a sergeant of police of the M division, because they corresponded with the description—this is the
description in the book (Reading: the first, "Age, 26; 5 feet 8 or 9; thin stature and features; complexion, pale; whiskers and hair, dark; dress, dark coat, trousers, and cap with a peak." The second, "About 5 feet 4 high, dressed in dark clothes.")—I had not known those men before; they were known to the police—one resided in Walworth-gardens, and the other in King-street, Borough—they were taken in the Borough—I went with Askew when she identified them—they were remanded once—she picked them out from two or three others—she said at first, "I believe those are the men;" and afterwards she said, "I feel certain they are."
Cross-examined by MR. DICKIE. Q. Did you go to the house on the night the robbery? A. Yes—I heard about Collett that evening—I went to her house next morning, but did not take her in custody—she was taken about 18th November—none of the property had then been found—inquiries have been made at the pawnbrokers.
ELLEN GREEN . I am single—I now live at 2, Adam-street, Paddington—I have known Puzey about six years—I was cohabiting with him in September and October last—I lived with him as his wife in September in the same lodging, 1, Nightingale-street—I knew George Reeves in October last—I recollect the circumstance of a robbery taking place at Mrs. Green's, Fulbam-place—I had known Reeves a fortnight or three weeks before that robbery—I first saw him when he came round to Nightingale-place to see Puzey—Reeves was then living at 27, Victoria-place, Bayswater, at a house kept by a Mrs. Duffin—the first time I went there was with Puzey, and I afterwards went there by myself—I went there on the Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday—I know Puzey's sister—she was living with Reeves—I have slept in that house, but Puzey has not—I was at that lodging on 17th October, the Thursday before the robbery—I went out from there that evening, between 7 and 8, with Puzey's sister—Reeves and Puzey had gone out before—Puzey's sister went into a pawnbroker's in Church-street—we afterwards went to Bell-street—we came back down Church-street and Carlisle-street into Bell-street, where we met Puzey—that was between 7 and 8 o'clock—he came and spoke to his sister and showed her a latch door key saying, "I have been there and it will not fit"—he asked her to give him some money to buy another key, which she did—Reeves was not present when we met Puzey—he said he bad been with him but had mined him—Puzey left his sister and me and went to buy a key—I saw him a short time afterwards at the Weybridge; that is a public-house near Fulham-place—it is the Bridge House Hotel, but I call it the Weybridge—an appointment had been made to meet there—I went there with Reeves' sister—we waited at the bridge about 10 minutes or a quarter of an hour—Puzey came to as first, and asked if we had seen George; we said, "No"—a short time afterwards George came up—that is Reeves—we then went into the public-house, which I call the Weybridge, and had some rum and water—Puzey then had a bright key with him about the same size as the one he bad in Bell-street—he held it over a gas lamp in the public-house and it became black—we left that public-house after having the rum and water, and went towards Fulham-place—we separated; Puzey and Reeves went up Fulham-place and I and the sister went down a turning—we were to meet them at the other end of Fulham-place; that is near Paddington-green—we went to the corner of Fulham-place, and saw Reeves with his back against a lamp-post in Fulham place; about the distance from us of from one end of this Court to the other—Puzey came to him at the lamppost, and then they joined us—when Puzey joined Reeves he came from the
Warwick Arms end of Fulham-place—he was on the same side as Mrs. Green's house—that is near the Warwick Arms—Puzey said, "The key will not fit, it wants filing"—after that we went away from that neighbourhood towards Maida-hill, and I went home, leaving the three together—on the next evening, Friday, I went to Reeves' lodging again, between 5 and 6 o'clock, by myself—while I was there Puzey came in, and I went out with him to their lodging—Reeves and Puzey's sister went with us—we went out about 7 o'clock, and went from Notting-hill up to Paddington—the sister and I left Puzey and Reeves up against the Harrow-road, and I do not know in what direction they went—we went to James-street, Eastbourne-terrace, to the Queen public-house—Mrs. Collett was there—I had never seen her before that night—I saw her outside Mrs. Carr's, which is at the corner of James-street and Eastbourne-terrace—we had gone to that house before we saw Mrs. Collett come out, and Puzey's sister threw a stone down the area and said that she wanted to see some one—we walked about, and Mrs. Collett came out about half or three quarters of an hour afterwards and went from her house to the Queen, which is in James-street—we then met Puzey and Reeves at the bottom of Eastbourne-terrace—they were in the Queen when Mrs. Collett came out—she came out with a jug in her hand and no bonnet on—she spoke to Puzey's sister, and to Reeves and Pusey when she went in—Reeves was standing up—she continued talking to them about a quarter of an hour or 20 minutes while I was there—she and Reeves were standing, and Puzey sat down by my side—Puzey's sister said to me, "Ellen, that is the woman where you are to go to place at," speaking of Mrs. Collett—I left the Queen by myself, as Mrs. Collett asked me to go up to her husband, to a public-house in Praed-street—I had seen him on that night before I saw Mrs. Collect, because while Puzey's sister was standing at the house he came round there, outside Mrs. Carr's house, and spoke to Puzey's sister—I went and fetched him and came back with him to the Queen—I was not away very long—I do not know the name of the place we went to after that—we went for a walk round the squares, Puzey and Reeves and Puzey's sister and myself, and Mrs. Collett went back to Mrs. Carr's with the beer—I did not notice what passed between Mr. and Mrs. Collett—Puzey was not still living with me at that time—he had ceased to cohabit with me on the Saturday in the previous week, the 12th—they did not tell me that any other woman was living with him after he left me—I know a woman who is called Mrs. Puzey, but they say he was not with her then—about a fortnight after this Friday I saw Reeves with Puzey's sister, in Devonshire-street, Lisson-grove—Reeves had not then any moustache—he had a moustache when I saw him on the 18th—I did not notice whether he had any whiskers, or hair, about his face or under his chin—Puzey's sister said that they were looking for a lodging, and they had not been home lately, as the police were after them; that they had not been to Victoria-place lately, and that she had had to cut George's moustache off, and he had got a very bad cold through it; that she heard the police outside, and let George out by a side door, while she was fumbling about by the gate—I did not see Puzey after 24th October till I saw him at the police-court, in custody—Puzey had slight whiskers when I saw him a week before the robbery—they went right round under his chin—I did not notice whether he had whiskers when at the police-court, I did not look at him—I have had this life-preserver in my hand before—I have seen it at Reeves' lodging—there was a string to it and a whistle—this is the same—I have blown the whistle—I also saw some black crape there on the Tuesday evening, the first
evening I was there—Reeves was going out, and Puzey's sister tore a piece off and gave it to him—I never had the crape in my hand—I cannot say whether I have seen this life-preserver more than once at Reeves', but I saw it on the Tuesday.
Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. Have you been tried for any offence and convicted? A. Yes; for unlawful possession—that was about two years ago—I was sent to prison for six months—I have never cohabited with a man named O'Donnell—I did not live with him—I know him—I was with him—we were children together—I was not living with him as his wife, or living in the same house with him—no man was convicted when I was convicted—I was convicted at Marylebone police-court—he was not tried afterwards, he was tried before—he was not transported, but had eighteen months—it was not for the same offence for which I had six months imprisonment, or connected with it; it was entirely different—he was not mentioned when I was taken—we were not both mixed up in the same offence though tried at different times—it was for a different thing altogether—I was not convicted of having the goods in my possession which he was charged with stealing—I cannot exactly say what he was connected with—I do not know—he was convicted about four or five months before me, I cannot exactly say which—I had the goods in my possession for three or four months before I was convicted; not from about the same time that he was committed—I have been cohabiting with Puzey about a month or five weeks altogether—the last time I saw him was Friday evening, 18th October—I went back to my mother's from him—I had no quarrel with him—I swear that—I knew afterwards that he went back to live with his wife—I and the wife had a quarrel after he was given in custody—it was not before I gave my evidence against him—it was after he was in custody; and after I had seen Mr. Lewis; about three weeks after he was in custody; he had been remanded—it was not before I gave my evidence against him; it was after—I did not speak in the police-court—I gave my evidence to Mr. Lewis, the solicitor—it was after Mr. Lewis took down my evidence, and before I gave my evidence before the Magistrate—I mean to repeat that—I attended at the police-court in consequence of Pusey and Reeves being apprehended—I never saw West and Barker—I heard that they were apprehended—afterwards, on a Sunday, I heard that Puzey and Reeves had been taken on the Saturday—I did not attend at the police-court—I went down to the police-court the week before I gave evidence—that was about a fortnight after the Sunday on which I heard they were apprehended—I did not go there on the first hearing—I read in the paper that they were remanded—I had information from another quarter, when the prosecution brought the subpoena for me—I mean to say that the first I heard of the examination of these two male prisoners was from the newspaper—that was on the Friday—it was on the Friday following that I heard, for the first time, about their examination before the Magistrate—I knew what they were taken for—I made no inquiries to know what became of them—I got the paper on the Friday for the purpose of seeing whether they were discharged or not—I was then living in Charles-street, with my mother—I used then to work with a laundress, Mrs. Neale, of Salem-gardens, Bays water—I was not working for her the first week—I was not working on the Friday that I got the paper—I was at home with my father and mother—my mother goes out to work—my father is a stonemason—I did not go to the police-court till I was subpoenaed—Mr. House gave me the subpoena—he said that Puzey's wife
said that it was me that told on them—I do not know how he found out where I lived—having got the subpoena, I went, on Wednesday, to the police-court, and saw Puzey's wife there—she took me on one side, and when I went back I was too late, they were remanded—I was not let in, because she took me away, and tore the subpoena out of my hand—I did not show it to any officer of the court—I went again the next Wednesday, and was examined—the gas-lamp over which Puzey held the key was high up—he held his arm up and reached it—I did not notice whether he was obliged to extend his arm to the full—that was about 8 o'clock in the evening—that is a quiet house, not very much frequented—I did not see many persons there—a man was sitting there when we went in, and he went out—we were the only people in that box—I did not notice whether we could see from one box to another—the lamp can be seen all over the room—I do not know whether everybody could see the key held over the lamp, supposing they were looking in that direction—I do not know whether everybody in every part of the place could see the gas-lamp—I was only in one box, and I have never been in the public-house before—I know who was behind the bar.
Cross-examined by MR. DICKIE. Q. You have no ill-feeling to Collett; I suppose you have not lived with her husband? A. No—I went to Fulham-place with Puzey on the Thursday evening, a week before the robbery—that is when I speak of him as against the lamp-post—I did not see Collett there—she was in service at Mrs. Carr's, in James-street—I did not see her at all that evening—I saw her on the Friday evening—I did not state anything before the Magistrate till 13th December; I did to Mr. Lewis a week before—it was a little latch-key—it was put up to the gas openly; it was not hidden from me—there was no conversation between us—Reeves was standing up, and Puzey was holding the key over the lamp—we all sat silent while he held the key there—no particular conversation took place in that public-house—I heard nothing about a robbery—I was one of their friends—I have seen the young man from the public-house here to-day—on one occasion I saw Mrs. Collet's husband waiting for her—she came there while we were outside the house—Mr. Collett and Puzey's sister appeared to be friends, and Mrs. Collett also appeared to be acquainted with his sister—I do not know whether Collett is a respectable married woman—Puzey's sister told me that she had had four years.
MR. CLERK. Q. You say you once had six months, what was that for? A. Unlawful possession of some clothes—a young man had given them to me—when I was at the police-court I did not tell them who the young man was: I did not want to tell, and I got six months for unlawful possession—I got a summons to go to the police-court when the prisoners were remanded—I went there and saw Puzey's sister and the woman I call his wife—I had not made any statement to Mr. Lewis at that time, I made it a week afterwards; I was too late to go in then—I do not know whether they were remanded when I got there; but they were when I got back—Puzey's sister asked me to go and have something to drink, and took me to a public-house—I did not go with Puzey's wife; I went with his sister—on the next remand, a week afterwards, I went to the police-court, and made a statement to Mr. Lewis—I had to sign some recognisances—I did not make a statement on oath, to the Magistrate, on the same day that I made the statement to Mr. Lewis—it was not after I came from the police-court that day, that I quarrelled with Puzey's wife, it was the next day—she stabbed me in the head, and is now in gaol for it—on the following Wednesday I made my first statement on oath before the Magistrate.
PHILIP KIRGANWIN . I am now living at 4, Bloomfield-place, Maida-hill, carrying on business there as a tea-dealer—on Thursday, 17th October last, I was barman at the Weybridge public-house, Paddington—that is called the Bridge House hotel—I know Ellen Green—I saw her there on the evening of that day between 8 and 9 o'clock—there were four in company, she, another woman, and two men—I supplied them with six pennyworth of rum and water—I know the others, the two prisoners—they were the two men with her—I have known the third prisoner, the woman, a great while—she was not the other woman—I had not seen the other woman before—I do not know who she was.
Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. Is the gas-lamp very high up? A. No; it is not very low down; a short man can reach it—it can be seen from all parts of the place.
Cross-examined by MR. DICKIE. Q. Were they in any secluded place behind the bar? A. No; they were in a private box; not where everybody could see them, but where the people behind the bar could see them.
MR. RIBTON. Q. Do you mean to say that these two men are the persons who were at the public-house on the 17th? A. Yes; I believe it now—I would not swear to them at the present time—(The witness' deposition was here read over to him)—the prisoners were in the dock when before the Magistrate—I would not swear to them, but I knew them—I would not swear they were the men in the house—I believe now that they are the men who were in the house at the time—I did not swear to them then, because I had no time to see them—I was not shown them in the cell first, nor was I asked to look at them—I did not see where they were—when I entered the Court I saw the men—I did not say they were not the men—I said I believed they were the men I saw at the time, but I would not swear—I did not swear that I knew them, and I did not swear that I did not know them—I could not swear then that they were the men, although I saw and looked at them—I do not now swear that they are, but I believe they are—I am more certain now that they are the men, because I have had a long time to experience it—I have not been talking to the police about it—I was subpoenaed on the last time they were had up—I believe I saw them at the Bridge House Tavern—that was the first time I ever saw them—I believe I was not asked before the Magistrate, whether I could say they were the men—I should not like to swear falsely—I now believe they are the men—I did not believe so before the Magistrate, because I never saw them until the time they reached the house—I saw at the time when they were four in company—I saw these men before the Magistrate—I have never seen them since until this morning.
COURT. Q. You say that looking at them you now believe them to be the men? A. Yes.
LOUISA DUFFIN . I live at 27, Victoria-place, Westbourne-road—my mother keeps the house—in October, Reeves had been lodging there between six and seven months—Puzey's sister cohabited with him there—I have seen Puzey at Reeves' lodging several times—I cannot say when I first saw him there, but it was about two months before I heard of the robbery of 24th October—he came once or twice a week, and sometimes more—I know Ellen Green by sight, I saw her twice or three times before the robbery, in Reeves' room—I only noticed that she began to come there about a week before the robbery—I only know Collett by her coming to the house—I first saw her there about a fortnight before the 26th—she came to see Puzey's sister and Reeves, and went into their room—she came about
twice during the fortnight before the robbery—the came there on the 24th about 6 o'clock in the evening, Puzey's sister was there when she came in, but I could not say whether Reeves or Puzey were there at that time—I know that they came in about 7 o'clock—Collett had not then gone away—Puzey and Reeves went out by themselves about 8 o'clock; Collett remained behind, and left about half-past 8, by herself I think—she came again between 9 and 10 that night, and I let her in—I cannot say whether Reeves or Puzey came in that night or not—Collett went into Reeves's room, I cannot say how long she stayed; I did not hear her go out—I saw Puzey and Reeves leave the house about 10, next morning—I had not heard them come in that morning, I do not know when they came in—I saw them going through the front door, I was outside in the garden—I did not speak to either of them—I cannot say whether Reeves slept there on the Friday night; I saw him on Saturday night, and about a fortnight after that he came there once and slept—he had taken the lodging by the week, and had not given notice to quit—the furniture was there, I believe it belonged to Pozey's sister—we let the lodging unfurnished—Puzey's sister did not continue in the lodging while Reeves was away, but she came a week after the Saturday—I cannot say whether she slept there or not—the furniture is there still—they have not given notice to quit—on the Saturday night after the robbery, Mrs. Collett came to the house; that was the same night that Reeves was there, but he had not come home then—I let her in, and she said that she wanted to see Mr. Reeves—I said that he was out, and she went away—I do not think I have seen her there since—at the time Reeves lodged there he had a moustache—I first saw him without one, the first time I was at the police-court, on 18th November—I cannot say whether he had one when he came on the Saturday night—Puzey had slight whiskers.
Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. Had Puzey the same at the police-court? A. Yes; the same as he always had—on the evening that Reeves came home, about a fortnight after the robbery, he had a few words with my father, but there was no notice given on either side—Reeves did not in consequence of that quarrel say that he would go—the quarrel was not the reason that no notice was given—he left next morning, but gave no notice—I do not know that those words were the cause of his going—the quarrel was on account of his coming in so late—he was in arrear of his rent, and left without paying—I cannot say how much he owed—I am quite sure that Saturday was the last time he slept there till a fortnight—I cannot say whether he was there on Saturday night, or that he was there on Monday morning—he was not there on Tuesday or Wednesday—he was not there on Monday—I cannot say whether he was there on Sunday or not—I say that he was not there on Monday, because the room was fastened up—when he came a fortnight afterwards, it was late in the morning, and I had to get up to let him in—my father is not here, he is an invalid—Puzey was in the habit of coming there often to see his sister—I heard of the robbery the same night, and I mentioned it for the first time on the Monday—I am quite sure I saw Puzey and Reeves leave the house about 10 o'clock on the next morning—I had often seen them leave together before the robbery—I was not asked anything about it for a month—I saw Collett there once or twice before the 24th, or perhaps more—I did not hear that two men named West and Barker had been taken up for the robbery.
Cross-examined by MR. DICKIE. Q. Was it your sister Collett came to see? A. Puzey's sister—Collett called on the Saturday evening—Reeves was out.
MR. CLERK. Q. Do you recollect from whom it was that you heard of the robbery on the night of the 24th? A. I heard a cabman speaking of it.
WILLIAM HANCOCK . I am a carpenter of 11, Eastbourne-mews, Paddington—I know Collett—I first saw her at Mrs. Carr's, 7 A, Eastbourne-terrace—I was doing some work there as carpenter, and I understand she was there as charwoman—she was doing some household duties, there—I have seen the male prisoners before—it was about three weeks before the robbery, at the Queen public-house—Collett used to meet them there repeatedly—I have seen them all there drinking and talking together several times of an evening—this was after the 10th, and before the robbery—I heard of the robbery soon after it took place—I made a communication after this to Mrs. Carr—I do not know whether she employed Collett afterwards—the last time I saw them at the Queen, was the day before I made the communication to Mrs. Carr, and I find that that was on 21st October—it was on the 20th, and between the 10th and the 20th, I saw them there repeatedly.
Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. Is your wife now living with Mrs. Carr? A. No, and never did, nor did she work for her—I do not know whether Collett was discharged—I heard of West and Barker being taken up—I did not go to the police-court on either occasion—no one asked me to look at them to see if I could recognise them as having seen them with Mrs. Collett or anybody else—I did not hear that West was actually sworn to, by some of the witnesses as having been in Mrs. Green's house—I do not always read the newspapers.
COURT. Q. How far is it from the Queen public-house to-Fulham-place? A. About a quarter of a mile.
Cross-examined by MR. DICKIE. Q. Is the Queen the nearest place to Mrs. Carr's to get beer of an evening? A. Yes.
SOPHIA JACKSON . In October last, I was cook to Mrs. Green, and was so for one year, seven months, and a fortnight—I am not so now—Collett acted as nurse to Mrs. Green last winter while I was there, and used to sit up with her—I remember the robbery; it took place on a Thursday night—on the day before that, Mrs. Collett called about half-past 8 or 9 o'clock in the evening, as near as I can remember—I let her in; she did not ring the bell, she knocked at the railings—March was the last time I had seen her there—she asked if Mr. Waite was there, and I said, "Yes"—he is a gentleman who has been in the habit of sitting with my mistress of an evening—he used to do so while Collett was there as nurse, almost every day—we then both went down into the kitchen, and Collett proposed having some gin—she went out and fetched a quartern—I did not give her the money for it—she was absent from a quarter of an hour to twenty minutes, and brought it back with her—she and I drank it, and the housemaid had some also—Collett stayed from half an hour to three-quarters, and then left—she came again on Thursday, from half-past 8 to 9, as near as I can remember—she knocked at the rails, and I let her in by the house door, which closes with a latch—it is opened with a key like a room door key, only smaller—we have only that door—she asked me if Mr. Waite was there—I said, "No, he is ill"—she went down with me into the kitchen and proposed that some gin should be brought—she fetched it—I did not give her the money for it either time—she was absent from five to ten minutes; she was very quickly gone—she brought it into the kitchen, and I gave her the door-key to let herself in—I told her to take it; we have generally been in the habit of doing so—she brought me the key into the kitchen and said, "Mind, there is your key"—after the gin was brought, the
doctor's boy brought some medicine to my mistress—I opened the door to him, closed it when he went away, and tried it to be sure it was fast—Collett was then in the kitchen—I met the housemaid on the stairs and then took the medicine up to my mistress, and then went back to the kitchen—Askew and Collett were there—I did not offer Askew any of the gin—she did not know that Mrs. Collett had fetched it on the 24th—I recollect Askew taking up my mistress' supper at about half-past 9 o'clock, as near as I can remember, and soon after she had left the kitchen, I heard a noise like the throwing down of a tray—I said, "What is the matter?"—Collett said, "Do not worry yourself"—I heard no footsteps nor any people coming down stairs, or breaking any of the banisters—I hastened to get into the passage as quick as I could, and then Collett said that she was innocent—I had said nothing to her before she said that—I had to go up stairs to the passage; the kitchen is below—the house door was open—Collett followed me, and the passage being narrow we could not both pass together, and I said, "Is this you, it never was so before"—I did not notice that she said anything, being rather hard of hearing—I got her out as quick as I could, and saw no more of her—I then went to Mr. Waite's; I was too nervous to go up stairs—I did not see Collett again till she was in custody—I saw no man in the house that night—there had been a housemaid named Lucy in the service—When Collett came on the Wednesday night, she asked me if I knew where Lucy was, and I said that I did not know—she said that she wanted her about a situation in Westbourne-terrace—I cannot exactly say whether she told me the name—I told her that I was leaving, and she said, "If I hear of anything, shall I tell you?"—I said, "Yes," and on the Thursday she told me of a place in Berkshire.
Cross-examined by MR. DICKIE. Q. When she was out to buy the gin, where was Askew? A. Up stairs with Mrs. Green—when I heard this noise, I said to Collett, "Is this you? this never happened before"—it was before I said that, that she said that she was innocent—some of the police called on me that night, after it was over, and I told them all I knew about it as far as I could—I did not give evidence when the other two men were taken—the medicine boy was the only person that came to the door after Mrs. Collett—there was not a fishmonger's boy—I took the medicine up, and my mistress had not change; so she sent her compliments, and she would send the money—I had the key down stairs; and the boy was in the hall—I saw nobody in going upstairs—Mrs. Collett was down stairs when I opened the door to the boy—that was after she came in with the gin.
COURT. Q. Did you leave the boy standing in the hall? A. Sitting in a chair—I came down and told him my mistress had not change, let him out, and shut the door after him.
ANN SMITH . I live at 1, Fulham-place, Paddington-green, four doors from Mrs. Green—on the evening of 21st October I was standing at my door and saw a man walking up and down near Mrs. Green's house—his walk extended from No. 5 to the corner leading to Maida-hill, which is the next house to mine—I have said that I observed him for three-quarters of an hour, but it was more than that—he was a middle-sized man, rather dark, and had moustachios—I saw another man waiting on the other side of the street, leaning against a low balustrade, opposite No. 3—I observed that he had rather lighter clothes on—on 24th October I was in my garden at the time of the robbery—I heard the crash of the banisters, heard the door of No. 5 open, and saw one or two men come out into the garden—it was then about twenty minutes to 10—a middle sized man came past our house—he
was running, and within half a minute I saw a woman follow, putting on a sort of plaid shawl, black and white check, or black and grey—I had not seen that shawl before, or seen any person wearing such a shawl—the man, who ran by, was exactly the same as the one I saw on the Monday evening—I saw him run under the lamp-post and saw him look back—the woman followed him round the corner—Reeves is the man I saw.
Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. You do not mean to say deliberately that Reeves is the man you saw? A. Well, if he is not the same he is exactly like him—I noticed him both nights very particularlyindeed—I know what I said before the Magistrate—(The witness's deposition being read, stated "Reeves is the same size as the man I saw. I did not particular notice his face, I imagine he had a moustache.")—I now say that Reeves is the man—I remember him perfectly well—I am more confident now because I did not take it into consideration, but I particularly recollect the cast of his features under the lamp—I did say that I did not look particularly in his face; but I was very much averse to coming up—I have not seen him since I was before the Magistrate—I am sure the man I saw on the 24th is the same as I saw on the 21st.
Q. You said before the Magistrate, "I took him for a young gentleman at No. 6, at first, I did not take him to be the man I saw on the 21st?" A. Not when I saw him coming out of the house, I did not—I saw him when I gave my evidence—since then I have become certain on the matter, I am quite certain—I have considered it well, and I mean to say that the person I saw under the lamp-post was Reeves—there are two other witnesses besides me who were in the garden at the time, my daughter and another young lady—my daughter is here—she is not a witness—she was not examined before the Magistrate—she saw the matter, but did not notice them, because I was nearer to them—I was brought up when Barker and West were charged—I saw them in the station-house—I did not give my evidence before the Magistrate, because I did not consider they were the men—I have not been talking to the police about this matter since—I have not had anything to do with them particularly.
Cross-examined by MR. DICKIE. Q. On the first night how long were you watching these men? A. An hour or better—I did not see a woman on any occasion communicate with them, but I saw one follow them out of the house.
MR. CLERK. Q. Were you taken to the station when West and Barker were in custody? A. Yes—my daughter is fifteen years old—her name is Annie.
ANNIE SMITH . I was with my mother in the garden on 24th October, at the time the robbery was committed—I saw some people run by—I think Reeves is one of them—I saw a woman running after him—I had never seen her before—I should not know her again positively—I could not see her features, but she had a plaid shawl on.
Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. Were you ever asked the question before by anybody? A. No—I saw these men at Marylebone police-court—I went there with mamma—I was not examined—this is the first time—I have seen them since—I did not hear my mamma give her evidence—I had as good an opportunity of seeing them as she had—I was as near to them—I do not think she has said directly the contrary, if so I differ with her—the man, whoever he was, ran past me very quickly—I should not like to swear that Reeves is the man.
Fulham-place—on the night of 24th October I was coming down Fulham-place in the direction of the Warwick Arms, which is fifteen yards from Mrs. Green's—I crossed the street near Mrs. Green's, in a slanting direction, when I was about four doors off, as I was going to No. 27—as I was crossing I saw two men in conversation opposite Mrs. Green's and near No. 27—they were not the same size; one was of a short stature, and the other was taller—the tall one crossed the road and went into a garden gate, which I imagined to be Mrs. Green's—it was in that direction—I stood there three or four minutes waiting to serve some beer—the shorter man walked to and fro—when I had served my beer I went away, and met the shorter man about half a dozen doors off—I did not go to the hotel, I went to Park-place—I came back into Fulham-place in about five minutes—there was then nobody in the street, and I went to the hotel—a quarter of an hour afterwards, while I was in the hotel, I heard a cry of "Thieves" or "Murder"—I went direct to Mrs. Green's house—I took no further notice of the man who was walking up and down than I should of any other person—I have seen him since—Reeves is the man—I came full to his face after I had served my customer—his face was the same as it is now, with the exception of a moustache and a little hair under his chin—he had on a loose coat—I did not see the tall man's face.
Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. Were you examined on two occasions before the Magistrate? A. Yes; the first time I did not speak with certainty—(The witness's first deposition stated: "The prisoner, George Reeves, resembles the short man, and the prisoner Puzey corresponds in height to the tall man; Reeves' countenance resembles him very much." The second deposition, on 18th December, stated: "I am quite positive that Reeves is the man who passed me.")—the reason I did not give my evidence with that certainty was, that I was intimidated coming to the Court—I was not asked to swear to the shorter man—I told the police of my being intimidated—by the shorter man I mean Reeves—when I gave my evidence on the first occasion I had not the least doubt—when I told the court that Reeves resembled the man, I was quite as certain as I am now—if I had been asked to swear to them I should have sworn to them as I have now—my reason was that I was intimidated—the intimidation had an effect upon me, because I should have volunteered to have done it if I had not been intimidated—I should not have differed from my word—I had never seen Reeves before, but have not the least doubt of him whatever—I was examined when Barker and West were examined—I cannot speak to Puzey's face because I did not see it—I may have said when Barker and West were examined, "I believe the tall man to be one I saw near the spot"—I have had something else to think of since that—I did not think West was the man in the first instance—I was examined twice—I was only examined once as regards West—I may have made use of the words, "I believe the tall man to be one who I saw near the spot"—I do not think the tall man was West—I do not think I used those words—I will not swear I did not—I am sure they were not remanded on that occasion on my evidence—they were not remanded immediately after my evidence was given.
MR. CLERK. Q. Have you ever spoken with any certainty or confidence about the tall man whom you saw in the street that night? A. Puzey resembles the man I saw crossing the road—West did not resemble the other man; he was more slight.
from there into Fulham-place—I saw three persons coming from the Harrow-road after us—I went home, changed my uniform, and came out about twenty minutes to 7—I went on to the bridge at the Harrow-road—that is the way to Bridge-terrace—I saw the same three men again—the male prisoners are two of them—I had seen Puzey before, but could not recollect his name—I have no doubt about him or about Reeves—I had seen him about before—Puzey had a hat on, and Reeves a cap—Puzey was leaning on the bridge.
Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. You say that you knew Puzey well? A. I had not seen him for some time, and could not recollect his name, but I knew him—I had known him close on four years ago—I could not recollect his name at the time I saw him with this man—I had known it, but could not recollect it on that night—if anybody had suggested his name to me, I should have recollected it—I first thought of it when I saw him in the station-house—that was not when I heard it, but when he was in custody—no one told me his name—I first recollected that his name was Puzey on the morning I was fetched from the station to look at him—he was then in custody—I recollected his name before I was told it—I had then had time to recollect—I thought of it before the month was out—I think I thought of it about two hours before I went to the station-house—I mean gravely to tell that to the jury—I was thinking about it for I was reading about it in the newspaper—I saw the case, and was reading it—I first gave information of this on the night after the robbery, to the inspector—I told him the parties I had seen about—I said I had seen three men that afternoon—I did not tell him that I knew the name of one, and had forgotten it; but I told Serjeant Potter I knew one of the men, but could not recollect his name, and the other constable as well, before I heard anything of the description—I belong to the same division as the other men, but I do very little duty there—I do not know where Puzey lived—I made no inquiries about him from the 24th till he was apprehended.
COURT. Q. Is the bridge across the Great Western Railway-station A. No; across the canal in the Harrow-road—Fowley-place is on the left—the canal runs out along the Harrow-road, and is not more than fifty yards from Fulham-place—the bridge I am speaking of, is the second bridge in the Harrow-road; that is near Paddington-green.
THOMAS POTTER (Police-serjeant, D). On Friday, 20th October, the morning after the robbery, I went to Collett's house, 33, Queen-street, Edgeware-road—it might be about 1 o'clock—she was not at home; I waited till she came in—I said, "Good morning, Mrs. Collett; where were you the night before last?"—she hesitated, and said that she could not remember—I repeated the caution, and said, "Now be cautious; you must remember"—she said, "No, I do not; I cannot remember"—I said, "Were not you at 5, Fulham-place?"—she said, "Oh yes, I was—I asked her why she went there—she said to ask the address of a young woman of the name of Lucy, as a lady on Eastbourne-terrace, where she had been charing, had applied to her to get her a servant—I said, "Are you sure of that, Mrs. Collett? I have seen Mrs. Carr, of Eastbourne-terrace, and she states that she has done nothing of the kind"—she said, "Oh, she will say anything"—I asked her whether she went out during the time she was at 5, Fulham-place—she hesitated, and said, "No"—I said, "I hope you will remember and he cautious; I have seen the servants; are you sure you did not go out?"—after some hesitation she admitted that she went out and fetched some gin—I asked her whether she was there last night, Thursday night—she said,
"Yes"—I asked her why she went there on that night—she said that she went to see the cook, as she had heard of a situation in Berkshire—I asked her in what part—she said that she did not know—something was said about Mr. Waite, hat I really forget what—the landlady of the house where Collett was living is not here; she is very old—when Collett came in, she had on a black and white check shawl; and on the morning I took her, 17th November, I said, "Where is your plaid shawl?"—she said that she was obliged to put it away—I did not ask her where she had pawned it.
Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. Did you make inquiries of the landlady as to what parties had been to see Collett? A. Yes; I asked her about a short and a tall man—I took her to the police-court—she had a belief that the prisoners were the men, but would not swear to them, because they had not got the hair about their faces—she said she should not like to swear to them, as the short man had a moustache on—I mean to swear that—I mentioned hair about the face just now, and she said that the taller man had not got so much whiskers, and that the shorter man wore a Glengarry cap, with a ribbon hanging down behind—she was not examined before the Magistrate; I did not think her evidence would be of use to the prosecution.
Cross-examined by MR. DICKIE. Q. Is she a a respectable woman? A. Yes—she is very near-sighted—she keeps a respectable house—I have been thirteen or fourteen years in the force, and have been promoted and rewarded—I asked her all these questions, and did not give her a hint that I should use them against her; she was not in custody, and I had no intention to take her in custody at that time—I thought it was part of my duty—I did not write the conversation down—the first time I detailed it was when they were taken before the Magistrate, on the 17th—I detected nothing in the room in reference to the robbery—she was wearing the plaid shawl—I have never been able to trace the property—Collett did not run away from the neighbourhood; I always had an officer watching her—I had the landlady present at the first examination—I took her in a cab—I did not take Mrs. Collett that morning.
MARGARET SUSANNAH CARR . I live at 7, Eastbourne-terrace—in October I employed Collett as a charwoman, and while she was there Hancock, the carpenter, was doing a job at my house—he spoke to me about Mrs. Collett, in consequence of which I ceased to employ her—I cannot recollect that I ever asked Collett to get a servant for me—I had two men-servants who came the day she left, 21st October—I had engaged them before—she knew they were my servants.
Cross-examined by MR. DICKIE. Q. You did not require her services any longer? A. No; I found no fault with her as far as I was personally concerned.
JOHN BRADDICK (re-examined). On the morning of 25th October I received information of this robbery, and a description of two men from my superintendant—I began to look out immediately after that for Puzey and Reeves—I knew them both before this occurrence—for some time prior to 24th October, I had seen them in the neighbourhood of Lisson-grove—I apprehended them on 17th November, at 15, Walmer-street, Marylebone—they were together in the same room—the door was opened, and I said, "Thomas and George, I want you for the robbery at Fulham place, for burglariously breaking and entering the dwelling house of Mrs. Green, and stealing a watch and other articles, value 20l, and assaulting her with intent to murder her;" neither of them made any reply—they had been in bed, but had put on their trousers to let me in—there was only one bed, and
there were two females in it also, who I knew—one of them was Puzey's sister, who lived with Reeves, the other I knew as Trott Piggott, but I now understand that she is Puzey's wife—I told them they must put on their clothes and come along with me—Puzey said, "All right Mr. Braddick, we will go along with you," and they went very quietly—Reeves had no moustache—he used to wear a moustache when I knew him about Lisson-grove—I saw him as lately as 22nd November—he was then wearing a moustache—Puzey had very slight whiskers and hair under his chin—he had no whiskers when I took him, but he had slight hair underneath—I saw him a few days previous to the robbery, he then had dark whiskers that came round under his chin—Puzey generally wore a cap with a peak to it—I never saw him with a hat—Reeves has worn a Glengarry cap for a length of time; but three or four days before the robbery I saw him twice with a hat—a Glengarry cap is a Scotch cap with a ribbon behind—I have been to 5, Fulham-place—there is a gaslight over the door, and if the light in the hall is burning, a person on the opposite side of the road can see persons coming down stairs, or their shadows.
Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. Are you the inspector who has had the management of this case? A. Yes—Inspector Steer had the management of the case against West and Barker—I did not know where Puzey lived till I apprehended him—I do not know that I am bound to tell you who told me where he lived, but it was from information I received—House did not tell me, but he went with me—he told me where they had gone into that night—I knew Puzey's wife lived there—I do not know the name of the landlady—I should not know her if I saw her—the first time I knew he was there, I went immediately—some duplicates were found by House at their lodging—I do not know the exact number—House worked with me the whole time, and Puzey's name was mentioned between us hundreds of times—it was mentioned from the first—we knew that Trott Piggott lived there, but we did not know Puzey was there—House mentioned 15, Walmer-street, before I went there, but I did not go there till 17th November, and when I went I found the prisoners.
MR. CLERK. Q. Had you been watching the house? A. Yes, and House also, and at last we found that the two men went there on the night of 17th November—Mrs. Puzey had been living there for some time—I began to watch Walmer-street, three or four days after the robbery—I knew prior to the robbery, that Reeves lived at 27, Victoria-place, Bayswater, and Puzey at 1, Nightingale-street, Lisson-grove—I went to those lodgings to inquire for them, perhaps ten days after the robbery, but I watched the place to see if I could see either of them go in—I did not want to take one without the other—prior to 24th October, Puzey was living at 1, Nightingale-street.
MR. RIBTON. Q. How long before the 24th. A. I have ascertained since that he left on the 14th—I have inquired, and find that he did not then go to Walmer-street.
Mr. CLERK. Q. Do you know when Mrs. Puzey first began to reside in Walmer-street? A. No.
MR. RIBTON to THOMAS STEER. Q. Did you hear Holden examined? A. Yes—I do not recollect hearing him say, "I believe the tall man is the one I saw near the spot;" he said he was very much like him—I heard a constable named Hammond examined, he is not here—I did not hear Annie Askew say upon oath, that one of the men had a cap on with a small peak.
Mr. RIBTON to ANNIE ASKEW. Q. Did you say in answer to Mr. Lewis that one of the men you spoke of had a cap on? A. Not to Mr. Lewis, I told Mr. Young, when I was examined as to West and Barker—I said that the man in my mistress's room had a cap on—West had not a cap at that time, he had a hat on.
MR. CLERK. Q. You say that the man you saw in your mistress's room had a cap on, which man? A. The tall man; he had a cap with a peak to it.
Witnesses for the Defence.
SARAH TAYLOR . My husband is a shoemaker, living at 15, Walmer-street, Paddington—I know Puzey and his wife—his wife was in my place five months—Puzey first came to live at my house about 12th October, I think; I will not be sure of the day—he continued there from the 12th until he was taken up for the robbery—that was a fortnight after the robbery was committed—he was taken on a Saturday night—I am speaking of the Paddington robbery—I was there when he was taken by Mr. Braddick and Mr. House—I am right when I say the robbery was a fortnight before; it was on 24th October—I heard of the night of the robbery, by reading it in the paper the following Sunday—Puzey's wife was at my house on that night—she sat there from 6 to half-past 8 at work, boot binding—Puzey came in at half-past eight that night, kissed his wife, and said he was going to a raffle—I say half-past 8, because I had my work to get in at the shop at 9, and Mrs. Pulley sat and helped me—the shop is in the Edgeware-road—I think it was half-past 8, because I heard Saint Mary's clock strike the half-hour—he merely spoke to his wife, and then went out—I delivered up my work that evening—Puzey came back between 1 and 2 in the morning—I let him in—I believe he had been drinking—he said, "I am drunk Sally, I shall not interfere with you, good night"—I remember next morning taking some coffee to Mrs. Puzey at 8 o'clock—Mr. Puzey was in bed—he drank the cocoa—he said, "Wake me at 10 o'clock"—I did so, as the clock was striking 10—he went out about a quarter to 1 in the day—I am sure he remained in till then—I brought some boer into the room at 11 o'clock, and had some with them—he did not get out of bed till 10 o'clock—I know it was the day after the robbery, because I had to go to Whitechapel to fetch a pair of corduroy trousers—I know he was suffering from some injury he had received in the hand—I made him a finger-stall on Tuesday evening, 22nd October—I believe his hand had been crushed at his work—he intended going to a doctor at the Western Dispensary—this was on Tuesday, 22nd October—he had whiskers while he was at his work, but I saw him with no whiskers while he was at home—about the 24th I did not see him with any whiskers.
Cross-examined by MR. CLERK. Q. Is Puzey any relation of yours? A. No; his wife is a cousin of mine—Puzey's wife had been living at my house for five months before Puzey was taken into custody—he had been living at the house about a month before he was taken in custody—I did not go to the police-station when they were taken in custody, or to the police-court—I knew that my cousin's husband was remanded on a charge of having committed this burglary, and that he was remanded, from time to time, till 18th December—I was at home very busy at work—I had some work to do that was wanted, and I did not know that I was wanted at the police-court—I was first asked to come as a witness on the last day that they were at Maryle-bone court—Puzey's sister asked me—Mrs. Puzey was in gaol at that time—I know that it was 24th October, because I have the bill for the 25th for going down to fetch my husband's trousers—I have not got it here, but I kept it by me; I did not know I should require it—I did not show it to
the attorney—I did not tell him that I had been to fetch a pair of corduroy trousers for my husband, and that I had a bill for it—I fetched them from 11, Turner-street, Whitechapel—Puzey asked me if I had a glove to make a finger-stall—I said, "No; but I would make him one out of a piece of kid which I had for binding boots"—he had hurt his hand some time before—I heard of his being in custody on a charge of stealing lead on the Saturday before, but he did not tell me so—he was at home with his wife for a fortnight, I believe, before he was taken up—he was at home living with his wife on 12th October—I made the finger-stall on the 22d—I do not know that he was in custody on the Saturday, previous to that night, for stealing lead—he came home to his wife on Saturday night—after he was taken in custody, the police came and searched the place—the two men were not living there—we never knew that Reeves was there, until that Saturday night—I never knew that be stopped with Mrs. Puzey—I had seen him there in the day time, and Puzey's sister came with him, but we did not know that they were in bed there until the police went into the room—there was only one bed in the room—Puzey had whiskers while he was at work; but when he was at home he shaved them off—he was at work before he came home to his wife—he cut his whiskers off before he came home—I am most sure that it was on 12th October that he came home—I cannot say the date of the Saturday they were taken up; but it was about a fortnight after I first read the case—it was a few days before I read the case that the robbery was committed—it was on the Thursday before I read the case, that he went to the raffle, 24th October.
COURT. Q. You say here that it was on the Saturday fortnight after the robbery? A. Yes.
MR. CLERK. Q. Did Braddick call with another constable besides House? A. Yes; he did not speak to me—he spoke to my husband, and asked how long Reeves had been in the house; I said, "I do not go into their room, I keep myself to myself; I know nothing about anybody."
MR. RIBTON. Q. Did you go before the Magistrate? A. No; Puzey's sister asked me to go down and say what I could about her brother—I know nothing of his being in charge on the Saturday before—his wife told me of it—I also heard that he was discharged for it—he was not then living at our house with his wife—he was living with a person of the name of Green—he was not taken up at our house at all—he came home to our place a fortnight before the robbery—it was on a Saturday; I believe that he was taken for stealing lead, and discharged, and he came home to his wife the same Saturday—House did not come till after he was taken up—my husband is not here; he was at home, but was not in the room into which Pazey came.
MARY PATTERSON . I am the wife of a labourer—we live at Mrs. Taylor's, 15, Walmer-street—on 24th December, about a quarter-past 8 at night, I saw Puzey coming out of the yard—the clock had struck the quarter-past 8—he had neither cap nor coat on, but was in his shirt-sleeves—his wife was in Mrs. Taylor's room—when I went into the yard, the door which is in the yard closed, and I said, "Oh bother; there is always somebody there;" and Mrs. Puzey said, "All right, Mary; it's only my old man; don't be afraid"—I know it was the 24th, because I had some friends, as it was my brother's birthday.
Cross-examined by MR. CLERK. Q. Do you lodge in the house? A. Yes; with my husband—we have been married four months—I know Tommy Rowe, but he has nothing to do with me—I never lived with him; I will defy any person to say so—I lived with his mother at the time he went for
a soldier—I did not cohabit with him—he was sent abroad to six years' penal servitude—he came back again and had three months after that for something—I mean to say that I was not living with him at that time, and I can bring his mother here to prove it—I was living in the same house with his mother—he did not live in the same room with his mother, he was not at home, and when he had three months, I was in service at Mrs. Well's, 63, Providence-place, Kilburn—I can be on my oath that I never lived in Mrs. Rowe's house at the time Tommy Rowe was at home.
MR. RIBTON. Q. There was no connexion at all between you and Rowe? A. No—I am not responsible for his getting three months—I was in Mrs. Well's service seven months—she is a laundress—after leaving her, I went to Mrs. Rowe's—my husband is a labouring man.
COURT. Q. Were you living in the same house as the last witness? A. Yes; the landlady is Mrs. Taylor—I was there when these men were taken—I had just gone to bed—I cannot tell you how long after this party of ours it was that they were taken—I had been there rather late ironing, and had just gone to bed when I heard a knock at the door—that was about a week or a fortnight after the party.
LOUISA HALL . I have been in Court all day—I did not go out when I was directed to do so by the police, because I did not understand—I am the wife of Mr. Hall, landlord of the Eight Bella, Denmark-street, St. Giles's—there was a raffle at our house on 24th October—I was in the bar serving—Puzey was there—he asked me for 6d. worth of brandy and water—the raffle was up stairs in the front room—after he had the brandy and water, he went up stairs—he may have remained there all the evening—I do not remember seeing him go out—he came down to the bar in the course of the evening—it may have been 10, or after 10, and went up stairs again, and I cannot say that I saw him any more.
Cross-examined by MR. CLERK. Q. Were you told by the clerk to the attorney that you were to stay in Court? A. I do not remember such a thing—a gentleman said to me, "You must go out;" and I went out at that little gate and sat down—I was not aware that I must go out, I should have been very glad to do so—I had never seen Puzey before this evening to my knowledge—there may have been sixty people or more at the raffle—they put their names down in a room up stairs, on a paper—they generally have a chairman—there is not always an advertisement—there is a card taken in from the parties who engage the room—sometimes people ask for a room for a friendly meeting—I have got the card, but have not brought it with me—I have it at home in a book—I informed the attorney that we had had that raffle—I did not show him the card—my husband is not here, nor any of the people who were at the raffle—Puzey came there as a guest—I do not remember his coming with any one—it is termed a friendly meeting, only they generally call it a raffle—they put down their names for a sum of money, but they do not draw—it is merely a benefit for any one who is in distress or backward with their rent—I cannot recollect who the benefit was for—it was not for any prisoner on trial—that is the way they get up prisoner's defences—they have a raffle for the expenses of the defence or for any one who is backward in their rent—they get up a friendly meeting, and some give a shilling, and some half a crown, to assist them—I do not know where Puzey lived, I never knew; but a fortnight after the meeting, his sister came, about 8 o'clock, and his wife, and put questions to me about the night of 24th October—they asked me if I had a meeting on such a night, and said, "Do you recollect such a man coming to your
bar and having six pennyworth of brandy and water, and changing a half-sovereign?"—I said, "Yes, I do; because that was the only half-sovereign I changed that night"—I always take particular notice of such persons for fear of taking a bad half-sovereign—they gave me his photograph on a piece of paper, and I recognised him by that, and by their description of his having change of me—I cannot recollect whether he had whiskers—they told me he was in custody on a charge of this kind—this was about a fortnight alter the meeting at our house—he was to be had up at the Marylebone Court the next day as they called in the evening—they called on Tuesday evening, and I went up to Marylebone Court on the Wednesday—this is the photograph (produced)—I recognised him from that: no, it was in a brooch; it was not that.
MR. RIBTON. Q. Have you been subpoenaed to come here? A. Yes—my husband did not wish me to come, and Mr. Venn's clerk subpoenaed me—I recognise the young man now—I have not the least doubt of him; and I recollect the incident about the half sovereign—I am sure the raffle was on the 24th—Mr. Venn did not tell me to bring the card here—I have looked at it lately in the book—I have a little book in which I place all the tickets—it would take half an hour to send for it—I am quite sure he had been taken up when they called; they told me so, and I went up to Marylebone the next day, Wednesday—I cannot fix it as a fortnight afterwards—I am certain he is the man.
COURT. Q. How many raffles have you had this year? A. A great many; I dare say we have had over a hundred—we have them all the year through—we have not had more than three or four in the present year—some times we have two or three a week—I cannot tell you exactly how many we had in October or November, sometimes three in a week, sometimes two, and sometimes four—it may have been an average of three a week during October and November—I cannot say exactly—the book will show. (The witness was ordered to send for it).
FELIX WILLIAM ISHERWOOD . I am a member of the College of Surgeons, and surgeon to the Western General Dispensary—I have here a register of the accidents which I have attended to personally, with my signature opposite to them—I find an entry here on 20th September, "Thomas Peroy, 11, Cumberland-terrace; crushed finger."
Q. Do you recollect this man coming to the hospital? A. May I look at his hands: (doing so) I feel convinced from the aspect of the person that he is the man—I feel convinced that that is the finger—it is the long finger of the left hand; the middle finger: it is crushed and lacerated—I had to take off the nail—I dressed it the first time, and afterwards the assistant dressed it—I do not know how long it was before he was discharged cured; because the assistant always attends to them afterwards—he was not an in-patient—we do not take in-patients—I cannot tell you how long he was under our charge—the finger nail was taken off, and strapping applied to it—I should consider that it would be well in a fortnight—if I heard that on 22nd of next month be carried his arm in a sling I should certainly think that it was not from that accident—it required a finger stall, but not a sling—he came on 20th September.
SAMUEL WILLIS . I live at 71, Crawford-street, Paddington, and am a painter and glazier—Reeves' father lodged at my place; he is a bootmaker—on Thursday evening, 24th October, about half-past 8 o'clock, which was the night of the robbery, the prisoner Reeves came to his father's place—I heard of the robbery next day, about 11 o'clock—I was standing at the door
smoking a pipe when Reeves passed in—I spoke to him—I remained at the door about half an hour—I do not know when he left—I stayed there till nearly 10 o'clock—I shut up the shop about 10 o'clock—he had not come down then—I am quite sure he had not come out from half-past 8 till 10 o'clock—he could not have come out without my seeing him—he must have passed me; there is no other way.
Cross-examined by MR. CLERK. Q. you keep the shop? A. No; it is a wardrobe shop—you may call it a rag shop if you like—it is a second-hand shop—I occupy two kitchens down below—I went to the police-court to see the prisoners—I was there each day at the examinations—I did not tell anybody to my knowledge that I had seen Reeves at his father's place on 24th October—I saw a very clever attorney there, and of course he spoke a word or two to me—I told him that I saw Reeves come in; but I was not called as a witness—I next saw Reeves, at the police-court—he did not come between the 24th and the time he was taken in custody; but he was there three or four times after the robbery, and I spoke to him when he cane in to see his father; I mean after the robbery was committed—when I told you just now that I did not see him from the 24th October till I saw him is custody, that was because you asked me whether I saw him at the police-court—he came to his father's three or four times a week—I do not know the woman who was living with him—I cannot say whether I saw him on 1st November—I cannot mention any day in November that I saw him there; but I frequently came to see his father, and I sometimes spoke to him and sometimes not—I heard of the robbery when I went over to the public-house next morning to get a glass of ale.
MR. RIBTON. Q. Did that fix it in your mind, that he was there on the night of the robbery? A. Yes—I have lived there five years and a half, and his father has lived there three years, and is as nice a respectable man as ever lived—I have worked for Mr. George Head, of Baker-street, ten years, and am in his employ now—I had nothing to do with the shop but letting it; and letting the house—I have nothing to do with the rags.
COURT. Q. Can you tell me how soon after 24th October the prisoners were taken in custody? A. A fortnight after, I believe; I cannot recollect the day.
ROBERT HILL . I live in Burn-street, Edgeware-road—on 24th October I was at 71, Crawford-street—I know it was the 24th, because I heard of this occurrence a few days afterwards, and recollected that on the night it occurred I was there—I went there to have a pair of tips put on my boots, and I have got them on now—I got there at 8 o'clock, and saw Reeves come there about half-past 8—he came to his father's room, the first-floor front—his father was not there, but he came in afterwards—I went at a little before 10, leaving him and his father there—I had my boots off and was waiting till they were repaired.
Cross-examined by MR. CLERK. Q. You were asked whether you were a labourer, and you said that you lived in some street in the Edgeware-road; are you a labourer? A. I have been backwards and forwards to have repairs done; I am a plasterer—I last did a job of plastering about a month ago in Duke-street, Soho, a corner shop—I have not lived in Walmer-street for twelve months—I know Reeves' father pretty well, as doing repairs, and I have seen his son, in and out—I do not knew Puzey, he is a stranger to me—it was more than a fortnight afterwards that I heard that they were down at the Court—that is what made me think of it—I only went through the passage of the Court—I was not in the Court while these men were
being examined, that I am aware of; I passed through—I do not know whether they were on remand or just taken—I then recollected that I had seen Reeves on 24th October.
THOMAS REEVES . I am a shoemaker—I now live at 10, Homer-street, but at this time I lived at 71, Crawford-street—I recollect perfectly well hearing of this robbery—I recollect the night of the robbery perfectly well—my son was at my house on that night—he was there when I went in, which was as near 9 as possible—the last witness, Hill, was there—my son remained till half-past 10 or more—I am quite certain it was on the night of the robbery.
Cross-examined by MR. CLERK. Q. When did you first hear of the robbery? A. Within two or three days of the time; I cannot say to a day—I remember my son being taken into custody—I do not know the day of the month; I did not notice it—I do not recollect that date, but I know it was on a Saturday—I had seen him that day and three or four times during the week—he came to my place three or four times a week, at the end of October and November—he wore a slight moustache—it was very slight—I did not notice when he cut it off—I did not observe that it was gone—it was very slight; a light one—I never made any observation to him about it—I went to the police-court two or three times, but only waited outside to hear the result—I know that my son was remanded from time to time.
MR. RIBTON. Q. From 24th October up to the time your son was taken in custody, did he continue to come backwards and forwards to your house as usual? A. He did—I do not think he was away three days at a time.
WILLIAM VENN . I am the attorney for the defence, practising at New-street, Strand—I attended for these men before the Magistrate—before they were committed I was in possession of all the facts, and had seen nearly all the witnesses—they were in attendance before the Magistrate, ready to be examined if necessary.
LOUISA HALL (re-examined). I produce my book—(This contained the cards of a large number of friendly meetings and raffles, one of which was the card of a friendly meeting on 24th October)—my reason for recollecting it, is because James Endley was the person who engaged the room on 24th October—the only reason why that enables me to tell, is by his sister coming and asking me the question, if it was the 24th October.
Inspector Dartrell stated that Puzey had been tried, with five others, for a robbery at Lord Foley's and sentenced to three years' penal servitude, from which he returned in March or April last, and immediately became the associate of the worst of thieves; and that Reeves had also been sentenced to penal servitude, the certificate of which was produced, and three months imprisonment since. Sergeant Potter stated that he had had Puzey in custody for a robbery and knocking a man down with a life-preserver, that he was acquitted of the robbery, but found guilty of the assault; and that Collett had been concerned in two or three similar robberies, but had not been convicted.
PUZEY and REEVES— Penal Servitude for Life.
COLLETT— Four Years' Penal Servitude.
THIRD COURT.—Wednesday, January 8th, 1862,
PRESENT—Mr. RECORDER, and Mr. COMMON SERJEANT.
Before Mr. Recorder.
PLEADED GUILTY .
He received a good character, and his father engaged to make compensation to both the prosecutors.— To enter into recognisances to appear and receive judgment when called upon.
OLD COURT.—Thursday, January 9th, 1862.
PRESENT—MR. BARON MARTIN; Mr. Ald. FINNIS; Mr. Ald. ROSE; Mr. Ald. ABBISS; Mr. Ald. BESLEY; and Mr. COMMON SERJEANT.
Before Mr. Baron Martin.
MESSRS. GIFFARD and MATTHEWS conducted the Prosecution.
FANNY KEANE . I am the wife of Henry Keane of 60, Lower Sloane-street—the prisoner came to lodge with me on 10th September, last year—he said he was a butcher—he did not carry on any business while he lodged with me, that I am aware of—his wife also lodged with me—on 5th October he sent for me to his room, the back parlour on the first floor, and asked me could I change him a 5l. note—I said, "Yes," I could do so, as I had just got my rent by me—I brought him four sovereigns and two halves, and he handed me over a 5l. note—I said to him, "I hope it is a correct one, for I am no scholar, and I cannot tell a good note from a bad one"—he said, "It is quite correct, Mrs. Keane, I assure you"—I took the note downstairs into my kitchen, and placed it in my desk—I had no other note of the kind there—I left it in my desk, and took it out on 25th October—the desk was locked during that interval—I then sent it by Mary Ann Brooks, a lodger of mine, in part payment of my rent, to Mr. Cooper, my landlord, and 13s. with it—on Friday, 29th November, the prisoner again sent for me, and asked could I change him a 5l. note again—I said, "No, that I cannot; I could not have changed you the other one, had I not have had my rent by me"—he said, "Have you got any change by you at all?"—I said, "Yes, I have got 2l. 5s."—he said, "Well, will you let me have that, that will do for me to go to market with to-morrow morning"—I went, and brought him up two sovereigns and two half-crowns, and gave it to him, and he handed me the note—I took that note, and placed it in the same desk where the other had been—I had no other notes there—I locked it up safely—I took it out of the desk on 5th December, and took it over to Mr. Bradford's, a neighbour, who keeps the Fountain public-house—I got the change from him the next day, and I went up to the prisoner, and paid it to him, deducting the rent, and 5s. that I had advanced to his wife—I first heard of the notes again on 11th December, when Mr. Cooper came to me—in consequence of what he said I went up to the prisoner, and asked him, did he know the date of the first note he had given to me—he said he did not, but he could partly tell the time he gave it to me—I said I was aware of that, and went downstairs—Mr. Cooper then told me the note was a bad one—I went up again to the prisoner, and asked him who he took it from, for it was represented to be a bad one—he said he took it from Mr. Jacobs, in Covent-garden-market, a wholesale dealer in fruit and apples—a few apples did come one Saturday to the prisoner's place; that was a week before he gave the note to
me; it was a few tubs of apples—I went down again to Mr. Cooper, and we went together across to Mr. Bradford's—I heard of the second note on Friday, 13th December—the prisoner happened to be out that day till late at night—I saw the note that day—I sent for a police-constable to wait for the prisoner's return—when he came home his wife said to him, "Oh, dear, here is a confusion we have been in all day respecting those two notes"—I said to him, "Wherever did you take the two notes, Mr. Cann, they are both bad?"—he said he knew perfectly well where he took them; he would go over to Mr. Bradford's, and see the note—he wanted to get by me—I said he must not go; I had got a person downstairs who wished to speak to him—with that the police-constable was called up, and he and I and the prisoner went over to Mr. Bradford's—the policeman went out of the house first, and as he went out Mr. Cann wanted to shut the door to, I said, "You must not do that, you must go with the policeman"—we went across, but the notes were not at Mr. Bradford's, they were at the police-court—the officer then took the prisoner to the station.
Cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH (with MR. HOLDSWORTH). Q. How long have you known the prisoner? A. I never saw him till 17th September, when he came to lodge with me—I never saw anything of his dealings in fruit—I saw some apples come one Saturday—I can't say anything about his character—mine is a lodging-house—I have lived there five years—I have let it out in apartments during that time—the lodgers do not change frequently—I do not have lodgers for a night—I never let places like that since I kept a house—I have not had as many as twenty different persons lodging at my house within the last three months—I have one set that has been with me two years and a half, and another three years and a half—Mr. and Mrs. Duncan, who live in my front room, have been with me two years and a half—I have not had repeated notice from my landlord to quit, during the last two years; never one—at the time the prisoner gave me the note, on 5th October, there were three lodgers in the house besides himself and wife—they were Mr. and Mrs. Duncan and Mrs. Brooks—I think between that and the 25th October I had two fresh lodgers in the back parlour where Mr. Cann was—one was himself, and the other was a Mrs. Pearce—Mrs. Pearce was the only fresh one—Mr. Pearce was in the country, I believe, on a job—she was not there on 26th October—I can't say to a day when she came—she stopped there altogether five weeks—Mr. Cooper has been my landlord for five years—I never had another landlord in respect of that house—I kept my writing desk in my kitchen, where I live—I always kept it locked—the key was generally in my pocket, on a bunch of keys—I have no family, only my husband—he lives there—when the key is not in my pocket it is in my drawer in my cupboard—I did not show the note to anyone when I received it—my husband was in bed at the time—he saw it in my hand, but not unfolded—no one saw it open so as to see what sort of note it was—there was not any writing at all on it—there was a mark of ink on one of the notes, but no writing; I did not see any—I did not have any conversation with the prisoner after the note was returned as to whether his name was on the back of it or not—I did not ask him whether he had not said that he wrote his name on the note, and he did not say that he had, and that his wife saw him put it on; nothing of the kind—I did not say to him, "Then, if you have, you must give me information where you took it from;" nor did he say that he put his name on the note when he gave it to me—there was no talk of the kind—before I came to my present house I lived at Mr. Thirsk's, at 29, Draycot-place, for nearly four years—I had a female lodger there named
Stafford for a short time—I also had another female lodger there—it was not a house in which females were in the habit of lodging for a short time—I was examined before the Magistrate—my deposition was taken down and read over to me—I was told if there was any error in it to correct it, and I then signed it—I cannot write—this is my mark—(The witness's deposition being read, contained the conversation with the prisoner just referred to about his name being on the note)—I recalled that in Court about the 20th, only I was not listened to—I say that conversation did not take place—I said it was not a right statement that I gave about the 20th, until I had my rent book to go by—I put my mark to it certainly, but I was not to know what I was doing, I could not read it—I have told the truth now, and then also, only I made a mistake about the 20th—I had no conversation with the prisoner about his name being on the note, nothing at all respecting it—it is an error—I contradicted it in Court—I don't know that I heard the words distinctly read out to me—I don't suppose the gentleman that took it down dreamt it—perhaps the solicitor took it down, without my saying it at all—I had no conversation at all with the prisoner, about his name being on the note, nor about anybody's name being on the note—I never took the first note out of my desk until I took it out to give it to Mrs. Brooks to send to pay my rent—I took it out while she stood there, and handed it to her—I kept the second note in the same desk, it was there from 29th November till 5th December—I took it myself to Mr. Bradford—it was in the same desk all the while—I have not brought the keys of the desk here—some times I leave them at home when I go out, but I very seldom go out except on particular occasions—I did not give anybody into custody on a charge of stealing something from my house in October—I charged Mrs. Pearce with it—she is the lodger I have spoken of—she is now living in Ebury-street, I believe—I was obliged to get rid of her, for she pledged my things—she brought them back again that I might not look her up—she was not lodging with me on 26th October—she was in the house—I can't say exactly what day she left, unless I had her rent-book here—she left before December, I cannot tell you the day—she went just as the prisoner was taken up—I got rid of her by reason of her dishonest practices—she came to me as a respectable married woman, and her husband was there with her till he went into the country—a person who is known by the name of "Oxford Emma," did not lodge with me in Sloane-street, she did in Draycot-place—she only came and stopped a day with me occasionally, when she came from Oxford—I know her up to this time—I don't know where she lives, somewhere in Chelsea, I believe—she is not in the habit of visiting at my place up to the present time—I don't know when I last saw her at my place, perhaps it might be a week or a fortnight—I do not know whether she is a person who might live a better life—I don't know that she it known by the same of "Oxford Emma"—I never heard her called it—I don't know anything about her being at the Westminster police-court, charged with various things—she was not charged for anything bad, only for being tipsy, not doing anything wrong—she was not taken from my house, and was not with me—no other female has left my house suddenly, since the prisoner has lodged with me, and before he was taken into custody.
MR. MATTHEWS. Q. You have spoken about keeping your keys either in your pocket or a drawer, could anybody have access to that drawer? A. No; no person ever goes into my kitchen except myself and husband—it is a room that we keep to ourselves—the lodgers could not get to my keys without my husband or I seeing them—I have not any recollection of
asking the prisoner whether he did not say that he put his name on the note; I think it must have been a mistake in the deposition—I have no recollection of such a thing, I am quite sure about it—I am quite sure that he did not, in my presence, put his name on the note—there was no name written on it—the gentleman who cross-examined me before the Magistrate put questions to me, as they have been put by Mr. Sleigh.
MART ANN BROOKS . I live with Mrs. Keane—I remember seeing her put a 5l. note in her desk—she took the note out of her desk on 25th October last—it was on a Friday, I believe, between 8 and 9 in the evening—she gave it me with some silver in a paper, to take to Mr. Cooper, her landlord, at 14, Brompton-crescent—I went there and gave it to Mr. Cooper—I saw him open the parcel—I gave him the same parcel that I had received from Mrs. Keane, and in the same state.
Cross-examined. Q. Did you look at the note? A. I had not it open in my hand, it was lying open on the table at Mr. Cooper's when he called me back—I saw Mrs. Keane bring it down, and she said she had cashed it for Mr. Cann—I had not the opportunity of examining it—I only saw that there were marks of ink on it.
WILLIAM COOPER . I am an attorney, of 14, Brompton-Crescent—Mrs. Keane has been a tenant of mine four or five years—on Friday, 25th October, a female brought me a 5l. Bank of England note, and 13s. from Mrs. Keane—I can hardly recognise the witness, she came at night; it was paid to me for Mrs. Keane's rent—I put the note in my purse, there was no other note there—I kept it in my possession till the Monday following, and then changed it at Peele's hotel, Fleet-street—before parting with it I wrote my name on it and the date—this (produced) is the note—I find here "William Cooper, 28/10/61"—I had no other note in my possession from the time I received it, till I parted with it on the 28th—on Tuesday, 10th December, it was returned to me by a waiter from Peele's hotel with an intimation that it was a forged note, I communicated with Mrs. Keane on the following day.
Cross-examined. Q. I suppose it is your practice to write your name and the date on every note when you pay it away? A. When I am asked to do so—they asked me to do so on this occasion, and I did it—it is a usual thing with tradesmen.
JAMES BRADFORD . I keep the Fountain public-house, Lower Sloane-street, opposite Mrs. Keane—on Thursday, 5th December, Mrs. Keane came to me with a 5l. note, I gave her a sovereign then, and the full change next morning—this is the note, I kept it in my possession till the following Monday; I then paid it away to a Mr. Hope, the collector to Elliot, Watney, and Co.—I am positive this is the same note that Mrs. Keane brought me, I put my name upon it.
Cross-examined. Q. Where do you usually put your money? A. Sometimes in my pocket, and sometimes elsewhere.
MR. MATTHEWS. Q. Was this note in your pocket from the time you took it till you parted with it? A. It was.
PETER SMITH (Policeman, B 163). I was sent for on Friday night, 13th December, to Mrs. Keane's house—she called me up-stairs to where the prisoner was; I told him he was charged with uttering two counterfeit 5l. notes to Mrs. Keane, his landlady—he said, "I know I did"—I said, "Be careful in what you say"—he said, "I know I gave her two; I took one of them from a man of the name of Jacobs, in Covent-garden, for some apples that my brother sent me from the country;" he said he took the other from a woman in the Harrow-road, Paddington—he did not say her name or
address—he said it was for some apples, in the way of business—I told him it was a strange thing that a man should have dealings with a woman—he said it was with her husband's consent—I went across with him and Mrs. Keane to Mr. Bradford's—he said he wanted to see Mr. Bradford, and I said I should take him there as I wanted to see him myself—when we got into Mr. Bradford's, he spoke to him something about the note, and coming out, he said he wanted to speak to his wife—I said, "You shall speak to her in my presence"—he said, "No" he should not, and he gave me a push, as if he was going to get away—from the way in which the push came, I say, as an experienced constable, it was as if he wanted to get away—on the road to the station he said he would show me where the woman lived, if I would go with him—I told him I was not going round the country with him, but if he told them inside they might send me—on the Saturday he said to me, "I suppose if I am convicted I shall get four years"—I said, "An innocent man would not think of that."
Cross-examined. Q. Am I to understand you to say that this man said that to you? A. Yes; I should not say it if he had not; what should put it into my head to say so?—I told Mr. Freahfield of it—my evidence was stopped when I was giving it before the Magistrate, on the second hearing—my evidence was read over to me in the ordinary way, and I signed my name in the usual way—I can explain why I did not state this; when I was giving my evidence the Magistrate told me to stand down, or else it would have come out then—I told the prisoner he was charged with uttering two notes—he said the first note he took from Mr. Jacobs, in Covent-garden Market, and the second note from a woman in the Harrow-road, Paddington—he distinguished the two notes in that way—he did not say he took the two notes either from a man in Covent-garden Market, or from a woman, in the way of business—I paid particular attention to what he said, as I always do, after cautioning a prisoner—what he said was, "I took the first from a man of the name of Jacobs, in Covent-garden, and the second one I took from a woman in the Harrow-road, Paddington"—I had not at that time showed him either of the notes; I had not got them—he asked me next morning to allow him to look at the numbers of the notes—I said, I had not got them, and I should not if I had—I did not tell the inspector he had requested me to go with him to the Harrow-road; it was the prisoner's place to make that statement; it was not part of my duty—I never heard the name of Ash mentioned during this matter by the prisoner.
MR. GIFFARD proposed to give in evidence the uttering of a note by the prisoner on 12th December, 1860, but MR. BARON MARTIN was of opinion that the period was too remote to render the evidence admissible.
Cross-examined. Q. I am afraid there are a great many forged 5l. Bank notes in circulation, are there not? A. There are, a great many—so far as the Bank authorities have been able to discover, there are only two plates in work at the present time—there is no doubt there are other forged notes in existence, but as far as regards the impressions I have recently seen, they have been taken from one or other of the two plates.
JOSEPH JACOBS . I am a wholesale dealer in apples, in Covent-garden Market—I know six other gentlemen of the name of Jacobs, who are witnesses here to day, also wholesale dealers in apples in Covent-garden Market—besides those and myself I know of no other wholesale dealer in
apples, of that name, in Covent-garden Market—I never bought any apples of the prisoner, or ever paid him a 5l. note—I never saw him, that I know of.
GEORGE JACOBS . I am a dealer in apples, in Covent-garden Market—I know the six other gentlemen of the same name, who are here as witnesses—besides them and myself I know of no other dealer in apples, of that name, in Covent-garden Market—I never paid the prisoner a 5l. note—I never saw him.
Cross-examined. Q. Do you mean that there are only six Jacob's in Covent-garden Market? A. Only seven, that deal in apples—there are others, but they do not deal in apples, they deal in oranges principally.
ABRAHAM JACOBS . I am one of the seven wholesale dealers in apples, in Covent-garden Market—I do not live in Covent garden now, I live in Russell-street, which is near the market—I know the other six gentlemen who are here as witnesses—beside them and myself I know of no other wholesale dealer in apples, of the name of Jacobs—I never sold or bought apples of the prisoner, or paid him a 5l. note.
Cross-examined. Q. Do you know a person of the name of David Jacob's, or Jacob Davids? A. No; there has been no such name in Covent-garden in my life-time—I do not know a Jacob Davis, or Davis Jacobs.
SIMEON JACOBS . I am a wholesale dealer in apples, in Covent-garden Market—I know the other six witnesses I know of no other apple-dealer besides them and myself in the Market—I never sold any apples to the prisoner, or gave him a 5l. note.
SAMUEL JACOBS . I am a wholesale dealer in apples, in Covent-garden Market—besides myself and the other six gentlemen, who are here as witnesses, I do not know any other wholesale dealer in apples of the name of Jacobs—I never bought any apples of the prisoner, or sold him any, or paid him a 5l. note.
Cross-examined. Q. Do you know any person of the name of David in the market? A. Davis; his name is Judah Davis—I do not know that amongst persons of our persuasion, one name is made use of instead of another—I have never heard it.
JOHN JACOBS . I am a wholesale dealer in apples in Covent-garden Market—I know the six gentlemen who are here as witnesses; besides them, I do know of another dealer in apples, Ezekiel Jacobs—he is a wholesale dealer—he lives in Hertford-place, Drury-lane, I believe; but he does business in the market—I never bought any apples of the prisoner, or gave him a 5l. note.
Cross-examined. Q. You say Mr. Ezekiel Jacobs does carry on business in the market? A. Yes, as a dealer in apples—he is usually there every market day, but he has had no transactions with the prisoner—he is not here to-day—he is well known in the market—he is the uncle or father of us all.
MR. GIFFARD. Q. When he deals in the market, do any of you deal for him, or does he deal independently himself? A. He buys for himself—I say the prisoner has had no dealings with him, because I made inquiry of him, he being my father.
MR. SLEIGH. Q. Have you seen the prisoner dealing in the market? A. Yes; I saw him with some apples.
At the close of MR. SLEGH'S address for the defence, MR. GIFFARD stated that
they had sent for Mr. Ezekiel Jacobs, who was then in attendance. MR. BARON MARTIN was of opinion that as the case for the prisoners had been closed, he could not then be examined.
Witnesses for the Defence.
FANNY ASH . I am the wife of a carrier in the service of the Great Western Railway Company, and live at 17, Winchester-street, Harrow-road, Paddington—I have had dealings with the prisoner in potatoes, and meat, and apples—I remember having a transaction with him about October last I had meat, potatoes, and apples of him, I paid him on that occasion with a 5l. note—they came to something about 2l. 5s., and some odd coppers, I cannot exactly recollect—he gave me the change out of the 5l. note—I keep a lodging-house, and board young men—I put my name on that 5l. note—I see the name of F. Ash on this 5l. note produced—that is my writing—this is the note I paid to the prisoner.
Cross-examined by MR. GIFFARD. Q. What is your husband's name? A. Robert Ash—I took the 5l. note of a lodger named Kingsmill—he does not lodge with me now, he has left—he came about twelve months ago last Christmas, and left either the latter end of August, or the beginning of September—I do not know where he is now—this F. Ash is my writing—it is the way I usually write—Kingsmill paid me the note for rent; he used to pay 6s. a week—he paid me 2l. 8s., for two months rent—I do not know exactly when I was first applied to, to know whether I remembered the note that I got from Kingsmill—it was one day this week—I had heard respecting the note a fortnight or three weeks ago, I dare say—I suppose it was the detective who applied to me then—he was in private clothes—he first came to me respecting it—I remembered when I was first applied to that I had put the name of F. Ash on the note—I say now that that is she note—I had not seen it from the time I gave it to this prisoner, until it was handed to me in Court to-day—I did not go before the magistrate as a witness, when the prisoner was under examination.
MR. HOLDSWORTH. Q. I believe you have lately been confined, have you not? A. I have; that was why I could not attend before the Magistrate—I was confined three weeks ago.
ELLEN CANN . I am a sister of the prisoner—I live at present at 17, Winchester-street—I have been staying there since I left my situation, which was on 13th November—I was in service at the Right Honble. Lort Cheshunt, at Cheshunt, Bucks—I was dairy maid there—I received my wages on the night of 12th, as I left on 13th—I received 13l. and some shillings—it was in gold and silver, ten or eleven sovereigns I think, and a pound's worth in silver—I came to town partly by the omnibus, and the remainder by the train to the Euston-square station I got into the train at Watford—I came by the second class—there were some ladies, and two or three gentleman in the train—one of the gentlemen asked if any lady could oblige him by changing a 5l. note, and I obliged him by doing so—I gave him 5l. for the note—I kept the note by me till I gave it to the prisoner—that was on the Saturday fortnight before he was taken, the day fortnight that we met at the police-court—I was examined as a witness at the police-court on the 30th of November, and that day fortnight I gave the note to him—he came to borrow 3l. of me—I had not any gold—I had spent the rest of my gold in shopping, and I gave him the 5l. note, and he gave me the 2l. on the following Monday—I understood him that he wanted the money to pay rent and other purposes.
Cross-examined by MR. GIFFARD. Q. You were aware I believe at the
time you are examined at the police-court, that Mrs. Keane had said the note was given to her on the Saturday? A. No; I did not hear Mrs. Keane's evidence there—I was in court, but I did not hear her—Winchester-street is where I am now living, in the Harrow-road—that is in the same house as Mrs. Ash—she is my sister, and she is sister to the prisoner—I was dismissed from Lord Cheshunt's service—I had no deficiency in my accounts—they said there was a deficiency, but there was none—nothing was said at the police-court about Mrs. Ash—Mr. Ash was examined there as a witness—I did not hear anything said about the note having been received by Mrs. Ash—I did not offer Mrs. Keane 20l. if she would not appear—the officer, Peter Smith, did not come up and tell me that he would take me into custody if he found me doing anything of that sort—nothing passed between me and Mrs. Keane, about giving her 20l., and not appearing, nor any money—I asked her if the money was paid, would she prosecute, and she said she hoped not—the officer Smith did not come up and tell me he would take me into custody—he never spoke to me—I saw a man pull her by the arm and say, "Come with me," but he never spoke to me—(looking at a letter) I have a brother named William Cann; I think that is his writing.
MR. HOLDSWORTH. Q. You say there was no deficiency in your accounts, at all events they paid you your wages? A. Yes; I was paid the full sum I claimed—I did not say anything to Mrs. Keane about the 5l. notes; what I said was, "If you get your money, then do you prosecute?"—she said, "I hope not, but I will see you again;" but I never saw her afterwards to speak to her—I did not live in any service before I went to Lord Cheshunt's—I was never out before—I lived with my father, who is a large farmer in Devonshire.
CHARLES BIGGS . I live at 16, Queen's-buildings, Brompton—I act as a salesman in Covent-garden Market—I have been employed about there twenty-one years—I have known the prisoner five years—he has generally brought apples to the market, since I have known him; sometimes he has sold forty bushels of a morning, and sometimes fifty—I have sold for him, and have taken some bank notes from him myself sometimes—I know a man in the market called Jacob Davis—there is a salesman in the market of the name of Judah Davis—I think that is the same man you are speaking of—it is Jacob or Judah Davis; sometimes he is called one and sometimes the other—he is a salesman, what is called a haggler—he passes by the name of Udah Davis—he is in the habit of dealing with the prisoner—he dealt with him for nine barrels of apples and one flat, about the middle of October—I have seen several other transactions between him and different people, and have seen notes pass between the prisoner and other people several times—he was dealing in Covent-garden in October, and the beginning of November.
Cross-examined. Q. Is Mr. Judah Davis here? A. I do not know—I do not know whether he is alive and well—I cannot say when I saw him last.
JOHN CANN . I am a farmer, near Tiverton in Devonshire—I am the prisoner's father—I have been in the habit of sending up apples to him, and his brother also, for sale in London—he has borne a very good character.
Cross-examined. Q. Was he living as a butcher with Mr. Phipps? A. I do not know; he has not done so lately, I think—I do not know whether he was so in 1860—I do not know what time he lived there—I think I have heard that he has lived there—do not know how he came to leave.
MR. SLEIGH. Q. During the whole of his life has he borne the character
of a respectable, honest man? A. Yes; I have never heard any imputation upon him.
Other witnesses deposed to the prisoner's good character.
NOT GUILTY .
No evidence was offered.—NOT GUILTY .
PLEADED GUILTY — Confined Three Months.
MESSRS. METCALFE and HOLL conducted the Prosecution.
GEORGE HENRY BUTTERWORTH HAWORTH . I have a slight impediment in my speech—I live at 38, Manchester-street, and am a pupil to an architect—in the beginning of October last, I had occasion to go from Manchester-street to Brompton—for that purpose I went across the park—it was between 8 and 9 in the evening—I went into the park through the Marble Arch—after I had got into the park, I saw a young man; he came up and said something to me that I could not catch—I saw his face, there being a lamp near—I then went down the road in the path-way, inside the park rails, running parallel with the Bayswater-road, a very considerable distance, intending to go to Brompton by way of Rutland-gate—I thought the bridge gate, dividing the long walk from the Serpentine, would be locked, so I returned part of the way back, and made for the Albert-gate—I went up a path there, and when I had got a short distance up the path, the same young man, who had spoken to me before, came up to me again and said something—I thought he was begging—I said I had nothing for him, and turned off the path to avoid him—I then walked across the park, making for the nearest cut towards the Albert-gate bridge of the Serpentine, the bridge at this end of the Serpentine—when I had got a considerable distance I came to a clump of trees, where I stayed to make water—when I had nearly finished, the young man who had first spoken to me, came up again and said something I could not make out—at that instant the prisoner came from behind a tree, near, and said, "I have caught you b—g"—I said I was only making water—he said I was doing the offence he alleged, and he would take me to the station; he also said that the young man, who was standing near us at the time, would prove it—I was very much alarmed indeed; very much frightened; and he then said, "If you have 5l. to give me, you can go"—I said I had not 5l. but I offered him my watch, which he would not take—he asked me if I had any rings—I had two rings which I gave him, with the watch, and some small change that I had, two or three shillings—he then said he would take my umbrella—he did so, and then made off—the other man was standing near us all the time the prisoner had been talking—he followed me for a short distance, and then he made off too, the prisoner making towards the Albert-gate, and the other making towards the Wellington-arch, Hyde Park—I have not seen the rings since, with one exception, or the umbrella—they have not been found—this is my watch (produced)—it is considerably damaged and altered, but it is mine—there was not the slightest foundation for this charge—I did not tell my friends, or anybody, about this when I got home—I do not exactly remember
the day of the month that this occurred; it was the beginning of October—I saw nothing more of the parties until 28th November, I then saw the younger man, who had first accosted me, in Manchester-square, and he said to me that he either had my rings, or he could get them for me; I do not recollect which—he was alone at that time, but I saw the prisoner in about a minute afterwards, not in Manchester-square; the younger man walked along Manchester-street, and turned up Edward-street by Anderson's, the chemist's, and the instant we reached Anderson's, the prisoner came, up, in Edward-street—he joined the other man—the prisoner said to me "I have your watch and rings," to which I replied, "Have you"—he then said he would give them me if I would give him 5l.—I said I had not 5l.—he asked for my address, and said if I would give him my address he would bring them to me, on condition that I gave 5l. for the watch and two rings—he did not name either the umbrella or the two or three shillings—I then agreed to give him only my address, not the other man, on condition that the other man went away—the other man then went away, and I gave the prisoner my address, and he walked with me to see that I had given him the right on—when I got to the door the servant, Mary Valentine, opened it, and the prisoner followed me upstairs without my asking him—I did not give any name then—I eventually gave him the name of Hawkin—the prisoner followed me upstairs to my room—I then said to him, "Then you will bring me my watch and rings to-night if you receive the 5l.—he said he would, and he then asked me for my name, which I gave him in writing on a piece of paper, as "Hawkin"—he then left, saying he would come again the next night, and bring my watch and rings—the next night about 6 o'clock he came—he came up to my room—I asked him if he had my watch and rings—he said, without replying to my question, that I had given him the rings—he then went into my bedroom, which communicates with the sitting-room by a door, he looked under the bed, returned into the room, and produced the rings only—he laid them down on the table; I asked him to do so—I said he had agreed to bring my watch also—he said he had not—when he laid the rings on the table, I put five sovereigns into his hand—before I gave him the money be said that he had men waiting outside, and if I did not give him the money he would call the men in and have me taken up—directly I gave him the five sovereigns he seized the rings; he snatched them up off the table immediately, and then he said he would let me have them again if I would give him another 5l.—I said I had not 5l. in the house, but if he came at half-past 5, I would have the rings then and give him 5l. for them—he then left—about five minutes after he had left the other young man who I had first seen, came up to my room—he said that he had my watch, and if I would give him 4l. for it I could have it—he showed me the watch—he had it in his hand—I had not the money and I told him so—he said he would have it before he left—I had only 30s. in the house of my own—I rang the bell to see if the landlady had the extra 2l. 10s.—the servant came up on to the landing, and I went out of the room to speak to her—I sent her to see if she could get 2l. 10s.—she came back without it—when the servant had gone down to see if she could get the landlady to lend me the money, the man went to the window, sat down in a chair, threw up the window, and leaned out, so that he could see into the street—he left the house before the servant returned—I went down with him—I looked out when he left, and saw him speaking to the prisoner—I saw them join together and speaking together—I went out, and went over the street to tell him that the servant could not get the 2l. 10s.; but if he chose to meet me at the Vere-street post-office the following morning he
could have it, if he gave me up the watch—on the following morning, Saturday, I left my lodging about half-past 8, and went to a tobacconists shop in Oxford-street, so that I could see the Vere-street post-office—while there I saw the prisoner pass the window, and in a minute or two afterwards I saw the other one—I went and spoke to the younger man whom I had first seen—I told him I had not the money, and made an appointment for half-past 6 on the Monday night—after I got home from Vere-street on Saturday, the prisoner came; he came up into my room—he was exceedingly rough in his manner, and said he would have 5l. before he left the room—he locked the door, and put the key in his pocket, and walked about the room in a very rough manner indeed—I ran into my bed-room; there is a door into the passage from that, and I went out of that and met the prisoner on the landing—I seized him by the coat, and shook him, and said he should go to the police-station, and I would go with him—he said he would go to the police-station, he should only be too happy, his character would bear him out through everything—we went out at the street door and shortly met the younger man; he joined us—we all three went together down George-street and Marylebone-lane, nearly as far as Hinde-street, that is on the way to the police-station—the younger man then said he would not go to the police-station—the prisoner said to him, "I will make you go, you shall go"—the young man, after walking a short way down Marylebone-lane, left us, saying he would return and take away my character—I continued walking with the prisoner till we got to Wigmore-street—he then said that if I would promise to give him 5l. on the Monday night he would not go any further, and would leave me there and then—we did not go on to the police-station—he was to bring the rings on Monday—after he had left me I turned to go down Marylebone-lane, and when I had got a short distance I again met the younger man—after that I mentioned the matter to a friend, and in consequence of that two police-constables were in waiting on the Monday night—when the prisoner came on Monday night, he saw the constables and ran away and was taken.
Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. I think you spoke of its being a little boy who spoke to you first in the park? A. No; it was not a little boy, it was a boy verging into a young man of about nineteen or twenty—I am able to say that it was the same young man that I saw throughout the transaction; I noticed his face particularly; he came close to me—I dare say there were other persons in the park—I have no doubt there were; I saw persons in the distance—I had only gone once backwards and forwards—the clump of trees I have spoken of is near the Albert-gate bridge of the Serpentine—it was not near where persons would be passing, it stands far on the grass, not close by the pathway; it is a considerable distance from any of the walks—I did not see any persons near there; I am certain of that—when the prisoner first spoke to me I was in the act of making water—I was not dressed precisely as I am now—I had not this top-coat on—I had a small light overcoat on; it buttoned in front all the way down—I opened it a short distance, and my trousers were unbuttoned; they button up in front—it is not a very thick clump of trees; it is not a small clump, nor very large—I was standing at one of the end trees—I am naturally very nervous—I was very much alarmed that night—at one time I was not quite certain that the prisoner used the word b—g—while I was in the act of making water the other young man was somewhere near; it all happened in a moment—I did not see him while I was in the act of making water—I believe I have stated all that the prisoner said to me—he did not say anything
about my being ashamed of myself—I could swear he did not say anything of the sort—he said, "I have caught you at it"—I believe those were the words—I believe it was not, "I have caught you," but "I have caught you at it"—he did not ask me for my address on the first occasion.
Q. Before he spoke to you at all at the clump of trees, did you see the the other man? A. It all occurred in a moment of time; one man came up and spoke, and at that moment the other man came from behind a tree—that was the first I saw of the prisoner.
COURT. Q. Tell us the exact words he made use of? A. I believe he said when he came from behind the clump of trees, "I have caught you at it"—"I have caught you," and then he made use of the word, he said, "I have caught you b—g."
RICHARD TANNER . I am a sergeant of the detective police—on 2nd December, accompanied by Sergeant Thomas, I went to 38, Manchester-street, in the afternoon—we went to the second floor—after we had been there some time, in consequence of something the maid-servant said to me I went down stairs—as I was going down the stairs I saw the prisoner at the front door—he immediately ran away, pushing the maid-servant up against the wall—he could see me coming down the stairs; the staircase is straight with the passage—I, and the prosecutor, and Thomas, followed him—he ran up Manchester-street on the same side as 38, up to 50 or 51; that was towards Manchester-square—in running along there, he passed the house of Mr. Hawkin,. No. 48—I secured him just after he had passed No. 49 or 50—he was taken back to the prosecutor's lodgings—I told him I was an officer of police, and that this gentleman, pointing to the prosecutor, charged him with extorting money, a watch, and rings from him, by threatening to accuse him of having committed an unnatural crime—he said he was innocent—he appeared very much excited and became violent—I asked him if he would permit me to see what he had about him—he said, "No;" God strike him b—blind if I touched him, he would smash me—I said, "Such conduct will not serve you, you had better be quiet and submit to what I require, otherwise I must do it by force"—I then searched him and found on him a purse containing a sovereign, a half-sovereign, and a half-penny—I asked him if he would tell me the object of his visit to the house that night—he said, "To see Mr. Hawkin"—I said, "Will you be good enough to tell me for what purpose"—he said, "I shall not"—I then took him to the station—next morning I received this watch from Mr. Haworth—I have since been in pursuit of the other man, but have not been able to take him.
WILLIAM THOMAS (Police-sergeant). On 2nd December, I went with Tanner to 38, Manchester-street—I went up stairs—in consequence of a communication from the servant, I went down stairs with Tanner; as I was going down the stairs I saw the prisoner at the front door—he was holding the door, and the servant girl was endeavouring to get behind him to close the door—he forced her on one side, ran out, turned to the right and ran towards Manchester-square—he ran on the same side of the way as Mr. Hawkin's house—this was about 6 o'clock in the evening—he was taken just after he had passed No, 47—I went back to the house, saw him safe there, and then left—I was afterwards present when he was charged at the police-station—I heard the charge read to him—I stood by the side of him—at the time he made a statement; he said, "About two months ago, I was crossing Hyde-park; I saw that man," pointing to the prosecutor, "with a little boy behind a clump of trees; they both had
their trousers down; I said to him, 'You ought to be ashamed of yourself, and if a policeman were near I would lock you up;' he said, 'Hush! don't make a noise and I will give you 5l.'—he gave me 2s. 6d. and promised to meet me again; I saw no more of him till last week, when I met him in Manchester-square; I said to him 'You have not kept your promise;' at that time the little boy was with me"—I then said to the prisoner, "Then you know his address"—he answered, "Yes"—I said to him, "Then you had better give it to me"—he answered, "No, I will not"—he said, "He is very respectable and is now very ill from the treatment he received from that man," pointing to the prosecutor.
WILLIAM HAWKIN . I live at 47, Manchester-street—on the evening of 2nd December, I went out to close my cellar door in the area about half-past 10 o'clock—I saw something in the area, which on taking it up, I found to be this watch.
MARY ELIZABETH VALENTINE . I am servant at 38, Manchester-street, where the prosecutor lodges—I remember his coming home one evening with the prisoner, it was on 28th November last—they went up stairs together; shortly after they had gone up I heard somebody go down stairs and go out of the house—I saw the prisoner again next day; he asked for Mr. Hawkin—altogether I saw him at the house five times—on one of those occasions I heard a noise like a scuffling on the top of the stairs, while he was there—I saw another young man there a few minutes after the prisoner left—he only came once—he was a young man, not a boy—on one of the occasions when the prisoner was there, I was sent by the prosecutor to borrow 2l. 10s.—he told me to ask Mrs. Maxwell the landlady for it—I was not able to get it.
GUILTY .— Penal Servitude for Life.
OLD COURT.—Friday, January 10th, 1862.
PRESENT—Mr. BARON MARTIN; and Mr. Ald. ROSE.
Before Mr. Baron Martin.
Mr. RIGBY conducted the Prosecution.
WILLIAM ROSEWELL . I am a builder, carrying on business at 34, Wind-mill-street, Tottenham Court-road—on 16th December I was in High-street, St. Giles', a little after 2 in the afternoon—I had just passed St. Giles' church to go to Long-acre—when I had passed the extreme boundary of the church ground, twenty or thirty yards, I heard a great noise, which I thought was a fire-engine—I looked up and I saw the prisoner and a lad in front of a wood cart—the horse was galloping at a faster rate than I ever saw in London streets in my life—they were in the cart—the boy was driving, and the prisoner was whipping the horse as fast and as hard as he could do it, from the time I first saw him till the accident occurred—I turned round when the horse and cart passed me, for I thought there would be an accident—looking ahead, I saw an elderly woman on the other side of the way, on the edge of the kerb-stone—she seemed to look to see if the coast was clear; but in a moment I saw her crossing, and I saw her knocked down; but whether by the shaft or the horse I cannot say; and I saw the near side wheel go over the body—I ran back to see that the driver did not escape; and when I got up by the church-gates, the horse and cart was stopped, and the driver was among the people—a lot of people were round
him—I went back to where the body had been taken in; it was where she lived—I then, seeing no police, went to the police-station, and told them of the occurrence—the inspector, very promptly, sent three or four policemen down immediately—she was taken to the hospital.
Cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH. Q. There was no trouble about overlooking the prisoner, I believe? A. No; there was not; I heard the people say he was shaken off—from the way in which it was going the horse looked to be a very young horse; but on seeing it closer it did not appear go young; but I should say it has extraordinary fire in him—my idea was, that he was a young and spirited horse from what I could see of it as it glanced along—it went so fast I could describe it as nothing better than a flash of lightning—the cart was loaded with firewood—I have not seen it in the court-yard this morning—I did not see the prisoner leap up on the shaft and lay hold of the reins, nothing of the sort—the whole time I saw him he was lashing with all his force, and as hard as he could—the horse was going at a most terrific rate—I do not believe he jumped up on the shaft before the old lady was on the ground, not within the distance I first saw him—I am sure she was knocked down, I cannot tell whether by the horse or shaft—I saw her suddenly, as she was going along very gently, knocked down as fast as ever she could be—I do not dispute the defendant's sobriety—I was examined before the coroner's jury, and the other witnesses in this matter—the jury returned a verdict of "Accidental death"—as they came towards me the prisoner was on the outside or offside of the cart, and the boy was in the centre of the cart, in the front—I am not sure whether the prisoner was standing, or kneeling, or sitting down—my whole attention was drawn to his lashing, and the horse going so fast—I did not notice whether he was standing or sitting—I have seen the horse several times since; but not this morning—I have never disputed that that was the horse or cart—I made a rough sketch of the situation where it occurred—I thought his lordship would understand it better.
MR. RIGBY. Q. If the prisoner had leaped on the shaft should you have been able to see him? A. Oh, yes—when I first saw him the horse was going so fast it was impossible for anyone to get up; during the whole time I saw him he did not do anything of the sort.
JAMES HAYES . I am a shoemaker, at 65, Dudley-street, St. Giles'—on Monday, 16th December last, about twenty minutes to 3, I was in High-street—I saw the prisoner there driving a firewood cart and horse—it was a two-wheeled cart, a heavyish cart—the horse was galloping—the prisoner was driving—I did not notice who had the reins—I saw the boy in the station-house afterwards—I do not know whether that boy was in the cart or not—I could not see who had the reins—I noticed the prisoner striking the horse once, that was all I noticed—I ran down towards him and I looked to see was the road clear, and I saw the old lady cross—I halloed to him to stop, and put up my hand—the old lady was run over—I went to her assistance to pick her up—I cannot say whether the prisoner saw me halloaing or not—I had not very far to run—I thought it was a fire-engine at first from the noise it made—the outside wheel passed over the old lady the furthest off—she was coming up on the left-hand side—the prisoner was coming from Holborn way—the woman was taken into the house where she lived, and afterwards to the hospital.
Cross-examined. Q. Have you seen the horse and cart outside to-day? A. No—I saw it at the time of the inquest—the horse was galloping at an extraordinary rate, very quick—it was loaded—I did not observe that some
of the bundles of wood fell from their proper place, and that the prisoner leaped up on the shaft, and that that caused the horse to start off at a greater pace—I was about the length of three or four houses off.
MR. RIGBY. Q. What sort of wood was this the cart was loaded with? A. Chopped firewood bundles.
ESTHER CROW . I am one of the daughters of the deceased—her name was Maria Iddiols—she was seventy years of age the 16th of this month—I did not see the cart; but I saw my mother after she was run over, in the middle of the road with her hands up—I brought her home myself—I ran out of the shop and carried her across the road, and then I remained with her in the hospital until her death.
Cross-examined. Q. She died in the hospital? A. Yes—the prisoner came to our house immediately after the accident—he did not come time after time, till she died—he came at the time my mother was run over, in the shop with his whip in his hand, and then he came the day of her death, in the evening—she died the next day, at a quarter to 7 in the evening—I do not know that he went to the hospital to inquire about her—I told him of her death—she had pattens on that day in crossing the road, because it was so muddy.
WILLIAM NORRIS MARSHALL . I am one of the house surgeons at the Middlesex Hospital—the deceased was brought there on 16th December—she was in a state of extreme depression—I attended her until her death, which happened on the next day, the 17th—the shock was the cause of her death.
(The Jury went into the Court-yard to look at the horse and cart).
MR. SLEIGH called the following Witnesses for the Defence.
ROBERT EDWARDS . I am in the employ of Mr. Wells, a timber-merchant, at Deptford; the prisoner was also in his employment, and has been ever since he was a boy—I have been there just upon thirty years—I never knew him any other than a steady, careful, well-conducted young man, or he would not have done for us—he has been frequently in the habit of driving for his master—I never heard any complaints—I know the horse that is outside in the yard—we have had it ten years—I think it is between fifteen and sixteen years of age at the present time—I was in Mr. Wells' employment when it was bought; I bought it—on the day when this accident occurred, the cart and horse left Deptford about half-past 12 in the day—the cart was loaded with bundles of firewood as it is now, exactly the same size and the same number—the weight of the cart was between 10 and 11 cwt.—we have had it weighed on the railway, that is how we form an idea of it—the load is about 24 cwt. about 1,000 bundles, each about 1 lb. and a quarter—I never saw that horse go like a flash of lightning in my life, and I have ridden behind him: the greatest speed which, in my judgment, that horse could be driven at, would be about six miles an hour—he would go between five and six miles an hour with a load like that; and not exceeding seven miles an hour coming home light.
WILLIAM WARWICK . I am in the employment of Mr. Wells, and have been so about seven years—during the whole of that time the prisoner has been a careful, steady, well conducted young man—he was in the habit of driving his master's horse—I have, myself, driven the horse—its utmost speed with an empty cart, I should say would not exceed eight miles an hour; and with such a load as he had that day it would be a moral impossibility for anyone to make it do six.
EDWARD BOWLES . I was along with the prisoner on the day when this poor old lady was run over—I remember the place where it occurred—I was on the path and the prisoner was on the path with me—we were on the left-hand side—I had the whip across my shoulder—the horse was going about five or six miles an hour—he was not galloping—three bundles of wood fell off; the last one fell on to the pony's back, then the prisoner jumped up to stop the bundles from rolling, and the pony started off when she felt his weight going on the shaft—the reins were tied to the shaft—he was making a grab at the reins, and he could not get them the first time—he got them the second time, and he was trying to stop the mare and he could not stop her—he halloed out to the woman two or three times; but she was deaf—that is all I know—from the place where Davis jumped on the cart and the wood fell to where the old lady was knocked down, was not further than from here to the other side of the court—we did not stop at all on our way from Deptford—we were walking on the path all the way we came along.
Cross-examined. Q. How do you know the woman was deaf? A. They said she was deaf—I heard a lot of them saying so—I go with the prisoner when he is out with the cart—we always walk by the side of the cart; we never ride before the bundles are off—I was walking with the prisoner by the side of the cart all the way from Deptford to the church—I mean to say that that is really the truth, we were walking all the way.
HENRY BOSFORTH . I reside at 11, Serle's-place, Temple-bar—on 16th December, I happened to be passing at the time this unfortunate matter occurred—as I was crossing Dudley-street to go into High-street, I saw the wood cart turn the corner—it was loaded heavily with wood—there was a lad walking by the side of the horse's head with a whip across his shoulder—the prisoner was walking on the path—three or four bundles of wood fell off, and others were rolling—the prisoner jumped up on the shaft to stop the others from rolling—when he jumped up the horse started—he stooped down to pick up the reins, and he missed them the first time—he stooped down again and caught them, and tried to stop the horse as much as he could and he could not stop it—there was an old lady crossing the road with pattens on, and she was knocked down, and the off wheel went over her body—as soon as the prisoner stopped the horse he jumped down and went over to where the old lady was, and there he stopped till he was taken into custody—I was about two doors and a half from the horse and cart when the accident occurred—the pace the horse was going at the very most was five or six miles an hour; not exceeding five or six miles—the first witness (Mr. Rosewell) was not there at the time it was done; he came up afterwards and inquired what was the matter—there was a lot of them talking about it, how it was going, and one thing and another, and I missed him all at once, and did not know where he went to.
COURT. Q. What is your business? A. A pastrycook.
Cross-examined. Q. You say when you first saw the cart it was going at the rate of five or six miles an hour? A. Yes; that was the very most it was going—the man and boy were walking by the side of it—I was walking across Dudley-street, going into High-street—Mr. Rosewell came up after the accident was done—he was not there at the time—I have not a shop at Serle's-place—that is where my mother lives—I am a journeyman—I was out of work that day, walking about—I had just come from Great St. Andrew's-street—I was examined in this case at Bow-street, on Boxing-day; that was the second examination—I was at work on the first examination
—I was not summoned to attend—I saw the prisoner on the day this occurred outside the station in George-street, and I gave him my name and address, and told him if he wanted any witnesses I would come for him—I was at work when they came after me for the first examination, on the Thursday, and a message was left for me to come to the inquest on Boxing-day; and I did—I had never seen the prisoner before—I have not been with him for the last few days since he has been attending here, only when he came out of the Court and bade me good night—I have not been in his company here during the time he has been waiting for the trial to come on; I swear that.
MR. SLEIGH. Q. Are you a stranger to all the parties? A. To all.
HENRY ALLWOOD . I am a carman in the service of Mr. Jenkins, of St. George's-row, Walworth—I was driving in my master's cart when this accident occurred—I did not see anything of it, but I saw the wood-cart just before it occurred—in my judgment, the speed at which it was going would not exceed six miles an hour—I saw the cart stop—I do not know who stopped it.
Cross-examined. Q. Did you see the driver? A. No; not till I saw him at Bow-street—there was no one on the cart when it passed me—I was in a covered van.
COURT. Q. Was the horse trotting, or what? A. It was a little out of the trot; he was not gallopping—it seemed to me like a fright at the time—he was a little out of the trot—I did not see anybody with it—it was stopped immediately after it passed me.
JURY to MR. ROSEWELL. Q. You say the prisoner was beating the horse very much, what with? A. An ordinary carman's whip; he had the whip and the boy the reins—that was all the time he was coming from the turning of Broad-street—he was whipping even after he passed me, until the woman was knocked down—after she was knocked down he had got so far on that I could not see whether he was whipping or not—he and the boy were both on the cart—I saw them both in the front—the boy was holding the reins and the prisoner the whip—he was not on the top of the load of wood; the wood was high up—he was in front, not on the shaft—I thought there might be a fender, or something, in front—perhaps he might have been on the shaft.
GUILTY .—Recommended to mercy by the Jury in consequence of his previous good character.— Cofined Three Months
NEW COURT.—Thursday and Friday, January 9th and 10th, 1862.
PRESENT—Mr. Ald. COPELAND; Mr. Ald. ABBISS; Mr. Ald DAKIN;
Mr. Ald. BESLEY; and Mr. COMMON SERJEANT.
Before Mr. Common Serjeant.
193. EDWIN TURNBULL (28), JAMES GILLETT (42), THOMAS SMITH ( ), JAMES HUNTER (47), were indicted (with THOMAS TURNBULL and FREDERICK CHARLES AGG , not in custody) for stealing, on 14th March, 10 bales of silk, value 800l., the property of the St. Katherine's Dock Company, in a barge upon the Thames. Other Counts, for feloniously receiving the same.
MR. HAWKINS, Q.C. with MESSRS. GIFFARD, and POLAND conducted the
Docks Company—on 9th or 10th March the ship Solent arrived there from Shanghaye with a cargo of silk—on 13th March I tallied 411 bales of silk from the Solent into the barge Dorville, belonging to Henry Gray, a lighterman, at No. 1 quay—these entries in this book (produced) are in my writing—among those 411 bales were nine marked RF+RF, and were numbered 2,028, 2,132, 2,136, 2,153, 2,154, 2,156, 2,179, 2,377, 2,394, and one marked "L and Co.," in a diamond, with a small 99 over the top of the diamond, on the left-hand side; "S" on the right-hand side, and numbered 7—those ten bales formed part of the 411 tallied into the Dorville—the hatches were fastened with the Custom's lock and key, and a tarpaulin put over them.
ANTHONY GRANT . I am a labourer in the service of the St. Katherine's Dock Company—on the morning of 14th March, between 8 and 9 o'clock, the barge Dorville was brought alongside the A quay—the tarpaulin, hatches, and Custom's lock were all right—I saw them unlocked by the Customs officer—when I came to unload her I found a vacant space—the other parts of the barge, except that vacant space, were all closely packed with bales of silk—some were moved on one side, and the stowage disturbed—the barge was unloaded that morning, between 8 and 9, by the officers of the Dock Company.
JOHN FREDERICK MARTIN . I am assistant foreman at the St. Katherine's Docks—on 14th March I tallied the cargo of the Dorville—I found 401 bales instead of 411—they were taken to the warehouse in Cutler-street and put into vans—the tallying was about 11 o'clock.
WILLIAM TWOCOCK . I am a lighterman, and live with my father in Drummond-terrace—on 8th March I went with one of his barges, the Robert, to the West India Docks—on 11th March the Robert was empty and safe in the West India Docks, and on the 13th also—on the 14th, at 11 in the morning, I went to fetch her away, and she had gone—I had never sent to have her removed—my father communicated with the police—some days afterwards I found her adrift outside the Surrey canal, in a very dirty state—the Surrey canal enters the river from the Thames.
SAMUEL LLOYD . I am in the service of the East and West India Dock Company—it is my duty to give counter-passes to barges leaving the docks—on 13th March I was on the look of the import dock—two barges, the Dorville and the Robert, passed out into the Limehouse basin—they could get into the river from there when the tide served—the Dorville was laden with silk and the Robert was empty—I gave counterpasses to the persons in charge of each of those barges—one person was in charge of each—I have not got the counterpasses, but they can be produced—them was a white pass for the full one and a blue one for the other—these had to be given up to pass into the river.
JOSEPH VARDELL . I am gate-man in the dock-master's office, East and West India Docks—I was on duty on 13th March at the Limehouse entrance, that is from the river into Limehouse basin—I left duty about 6 o'clock that evening and came on again at 5 o'clock on the morning of the 14th—I then found these two counterpasses (produced) on the file, one for the Dorville and one for the Robert—they would be placed on the file when the barges went through the entrance into the river, between the time I left duty and 5 o'clock the following morning—the tide served to leave the basin at about half-past 1 to go up the river, it was flood at half-past 1.
matter—I was found guilty and sentenced to eighteen months imprisonment, out of which I have served seven—before I was apprehended I was a silk dealer and manufacturer in a middling or small way of business—my house was at 4, Slater-street, Brick-lane, Bethnal-green—about February or March last, I knew the prisoner Gillett, who was in the general line; he kept a leaving shop where they lend money on articles; not a pawnbroker's—I remember seeing him early in March at my house—he came alone of his own accord into my shop and said, "Can you purchase ten bales of silk of me?"—I said, "Are they your own?" he said no, they were not his own, but he would send the men they belonged to—nothing further passed at that time—he went away after that, and about a fortnight previous to seeing him again, I saw the other two men, Edwin Torn bull and one not in custody—I did not know either of them by name—I did not afterwards ascertain what the other man's name was—I do not know Turnbull's name except by what I have been told—I never heard the other man called by name by anybody—they came to my house—I asked them what they wanted; they said they had come about the silk that Mr. Gillett was speaking to me about—I asked them whether they had the sample of it with them—they said, "No, but they would bring it"—there was some conversation about the silk—they asked me whether I would have anything to drink—some gin was sent for—my servant Phoebe Salmon, fetched it—one of the two men paid for it; I do not know which—a man who is not in custody came before I saw Gillett again—I did not see Gillett again till the morning the silk was in the van—I beg pardon, he came a few days after he first came; he was very tipsy, and held up a key and said that that was the thing that would get it—that was before the two men came—I thought he was joking, being tipsy—I did not know what he meant—on Thursday morning, March 14th, about half-past 6, I heard a knocking at the door—I was in bed—I put on my trousers, went down and opened the door, and saw the prisoner who is not in custody—that was the same one as I had seen before—I cannot exactly say that I ever beard his christian name—I opened the door and he came in—I had a conversation with him—he opened his coat and told me that he had a sample of the silk that he was speaking about—there was about a pound in the sample—it was China raw silk—I took possession of it—he then requested me to go up into Shoreditch—he told me for what purpose, and I consented to go with him—I told him to go up the street while I put my clothes on and I would overtake him—I did so, and we then walked together up as far as Shoreditch church or a little way past, getting into the Kingsland-road—he then pointed out a van with one horse—it was loaded and had a tarpaulin over it—it was standing opposite a coffee house in Kingsland-road—while I was there with him the prisoners Gillett, and Edwin Turnbull, came from some part by the van, but where I cannot say—they crossed to me from the direction of the van—the man who had come with me spoke to them and said, "He won't have it," alluding to me—they both said together in a breath, "You don't mean that do you?"—I said, "Yes, it is no good to me"—I had no use whatever for raw silk—I never had any dealings with it in my life, not with raw unthrown silk, which that was—there was no further conversation with reference to this silk then—we all four went into a public-house; I do not know the name of it; it is right opposite Shoreditch church—we had one quartern of brandy there—while we were there Gillett left the house, leaving me and the other two inside—we remained about four or five minutes after he left, and then Edwin Turnbull, I, and the other man went out together—the van was gone then
—I was going towards my home and Turnbull told me not to be in a hurry, they wanted to have a conversation with me, would I come with them—I went with them—we walked up the Kingsland-road till we came to the Victory public-house which is in Kingsland-road—we went in there and had two quarterns of brandy and some biscuits—Edwin Turnbull did not say anything there to me about the silk, nor did the other men in his presence—nothing was said in that house about the silk—there was something said before I parted with them—as 1 was coming towards my home Mr. Turnbull asked me whether I could sell the silk for them—at the public-house Turnbull asked me if I would lend them some money till the silk was sold—I said no, I could not—I do not recollect seeing any one in the Victory besides the barmaid and potman—I spoke to the barmaid in the presence of the two men—she said that I was up there very early that morning—I said, "Well, I have been taking a stroll in Victoria-perk, and that brought me here early—I cannot recollect whether I spoke to the potman—after leaving the Victory I went towards my own home, towards the Eastern Counties Railway-station—on my road, the man not in custody and Mr. Turnbull, asked me whether I would try to sell the silk for them—I said I would see about it—I then parted from them and went home—the sample was at home at my house—I remained at home up till 6 o'clock in the evening—I then saw Gillett and the man not in custody—they came to my house and asked me whether I had sold the silk or whether I had been about it—I said, "No," but I was going to try to sell it—they then left, and I went up as far as Mr. Shears' in the Dog-road, Cambridge-heath-road—he was a very large silk dealer—I am given to understand that he is now dead—I found that he had left, and I was told to go to the prisoner Hunter, who at that time kept the Red Deer public-house in the Cambridge-heath-road—I found Shears there—he was in the tap-room when I got in—I went with him into a private box in front of the bar—I saw Mr. Hunter there—I had given the sample to Mr. Shears—he gave it to Mr. Hunter—I had made a communication to Shears as to what quantity there was of it, and what price was asked for it—I did not hear Shears say anything to Hunter about the quantity—my communication to Shears was in Hunter's presence—I told Shears there was ten bales of it and it was to be sold at 6s. a pound, but I wanted 7s.—Hunter said nothing to that—he said at that interview that he could sell it for us, not the least doubt—I remained there something like an hour, or an hour and a half—I asked him whether I should call there, or whether he should call at my house—nothing further took place on that Thursday, the 14th—on Friday, the 15th, I went to Hunter's again, about half-past 11 or 12 in the morning, as I was directed—I did not find Hunter at home—I stayed there, and had something to drink—it was half an hour before any one came—Mr. Hunter and Mr. Agg then drove up together in a small chaise—I was standing in the private box—I looked out at the door, and saw Agg come from the chaise to me in the private compartment, he produced the sample left with Mr. Hunter—I had some further conversation with Agg—I remained in the house ten minutes or a quarter of an hour—I then left and went home again—in the course of the afternoon while I was at home, a boy came to my house to deliver a message to me, in consequence of which, I went to the railway hotel near the Eastern Counties Railway-station—that was from 4 to half-past 4 o'clock in the afternoon, I cannot say to a few minutes—I saw Agg and Hunter there—they told me they had sold the silk to Mr. Newton; Agg said, "I cannot pay for it now, I have not the
money," and that Mr. Newton had not the money in London with him to pay for it then, but if I could make it right for the money, I could go down with them and receive the money myself for Mr. Agg, and they would pay my passage there and back—we were all three standing together—nothing further took place in the public-house—Sergeant Jackson was there when I went in—nothing was said in the public-house about packing the silk—after leaving the public-house I went home; I said that I would go home and consult my wife about the money, and would meet him in an hour—the same evening I was standing at my door when Gillett and the man not in custody came—that was from half-past 7 to 8 o'clock—I told them that the silk was sold, and I would meet them to have it fetched away—they told me to meet them at the Prince of Wales public-house about 9 o'clock—I do not know the name of the street in which that is—I went there about 9 o'clock and saw Gillett, Turnbull, and the one not in custody—I had a conversation with them there respecting the silk—I told them that I had sold it, and they could bring it to my brother-in-law's, and I would pay them the money as soon as I could get it—I had a brother-in-law named Barker, who lived at No. 2, Hope-street, Spitalfields—they all three went with me to Princes-street, where the silk was—I do not recollect anything being said about money on the road there—(the officers afterwards took me by the door of this place in Princes-street—it was pointed out to me, and I said, "That is the place")—I do not know whose premises those were—when we got to them we went into a stable which is at the back of a yard, down a gateway—as we passed the gate, a van was standing there—in the stable the ten bales of silk, as I supposed them to be, were shown to me—they were covered over with packing stuff like matting—it was down by the horse-manger—the tarpaulin that was covered over it was taken off, and they said, "There are the ten bales"—they were in matting like this on the ground here—a man was in the stable in his shirt sleeves—I do not know who he was—he was not either of the men at the bar—they then asked me if I would see it weighed—I said they could weigh it if they liked—a pair of scales was got, and they took the cloth off three, while I was there, and weighed them, and put them in the van, and I, and the man not in custody, came away—the man who got the scales said, "Don't make a noise"—that is the man who was in his shirt sleeves—we left and came back to the Prince of Wales public-house—we were sitting in front of the bar there when the van drove up to the door—Mr. Gillett was with it, nobody else—he got out and came inside—Edwin Turnbull came into the public-house, and I and the one not in custody came out and got up—we went to my brother-in-law's, Mr. Barker, No. 2, Hope-street—the van was unloaded there, and the silk put in the front parlour underneath the window—when it came there all the outer things had been taken off, and it was all in white calico, put into India rubber bags—it was then left at Barker's—I and the other man went back with the van to the Prince of Wales—when we got there Turnbull and the other man and Gillett were there, and I gave Edwin Turnbull 9l.—I was to give them 310l. for the silk—and what there was over weight was to be reckoned as tareage—Turnbull asked me when I would give them the residue of the money—I told them I would let them have it the next day, which was the 16th, about 1 o'clock in the day—I had not the money myself to pay—I had some deeds belonging to me which I took on Saturday morning, the 16th, to Mr. Angell, a solicitor—I asked him for the amount of money which I wanted on the deeds—he said he could not let me have the amount till he had looked at them, but I could have 50l. if I
liked—he handed me a cheque for 50l.—I went to the bank and got it changed, and took the money to the corner of Hunt-street, the Red Lion, where they had appointed to meet me—I found Gillett, Turnbull, and the man not in custody, and several more, but I cannot say whether they were with them—Turnbull beckoned me to go out—they were playing at dominoes when I went in—I went out and the one not in custody came up to me—we walked on till we came to a public-house in the same street as the Prince of Wales—we went in there into a room opposite the bar, and I there gave him the 50l. which Mr. Angell had given to me—I saw no more of them till they were in custody—I was at home on the morning of Saturday the 17th, and Mr. Agg came to me—there was nobody then with him that I saw—I afterwards saw somebody with him; not at my house, but opposite the Compasses public-house—Agg came to me and I went out of the house with him, and saw a chaise, and Hunter sitting in it—that was opposite the Compasses public-house, about 50 yards from my own door—I did not speak to Hunter at that time—I went to my brother-in-law's with Agg—he said he should like to see the whole of the silk now we had got it there—he looked at the whole of it as it lay in the packing cloths; it was not undone—we then came back and went up the street to where the chaise was standing; Hunter was still in it—Agg then said, as we stood at the side of the chaise, that they were going up to Branch-place, and would I go with them—I said, "The chaise will not hold three, I know Branch-place, and I will take the bus and be there as soon as you are"—Agg and Hunter then drove off together—I took the omnibus and went to No. 8, Branch-place—that is Mr. Crane's, who was a porter in Drakeford's service—I knew him by being a porter there—when I got there, Agg was inside and Hunter was waiting outside, in the chaise—I went into the passage—I do not know what Agg said to Crane—Crane and Barker were both tried with me—after Agg came out they said they could make room in the chaise, would I get up and take a ride with them—I got up and took a seat in Mr. Agg's lap—they drove me till we got nearly to Mr. Hunter's house, and then Mr. Hunter said that I had better get down and walk the rest of the way, as there would be people coming into his house, and I should be seen—the house was not open and I waited by a butcher's shop, and Hunter came to the gate and let me in—we all three went into the bar parlour and had some bread and cheese, and stout—Agg said that the silk was all right, they should get it down to Derby by to-morrow—and it would go down by the railway, and I was to be at the railway terminus, at Euston-square, by 8 o'clock in the evening—Hunter said, "If Shears should say anything to you about the silk, say you had nothing at all to do with us for we were too artful for you"—nothing was said at that interview about the price that the silk was to fetch—on the 15th, the day before, at the public-house by the railway, Agg, in Hunter's presence, asked me to make out the invoice for the silk at 14s. per pound—I said I could not do so, for I had no invoice myself—I should think I was at Hunter's about 20 minutes, or half an hour, on the Sunday—on Monday the 18th, I was standing at my door, at half-past 1, when Crane came up with bags to pack the silk—I went with him to Barker's, and saw him pack the silk there—he put it into these packing bags (produced)—it had never been unpacked from the sheeting, but was put into the bags in the sheets—I saw Crane put the direction on the sacks, he put on the whole of this mark, "Overland 1,022, A in a diamond, 3"—the direction, "Mr. Newton, Derby," was also put on, where they were to go to—I had not before that heard Agg, in Hunter's presence, say anything about packing the goods, that
was done before—that was on the Monday—Crane and I remained till the goods were packed, and then he went home, and I went home—I returned to my brother's-in-law's that afternoon, and saw one of Pickford's two horse vans drive up to his house—that was before 4 o'clock—I should know the man who was driving—it was one of Pickford's men—I should know him again; two boys assisted him—after the silk had been loaded on the van I went to Hunter's and asked him if he was going; he said, yes, he was going to start almost directly to the station, and said, "You can meet us there"—I told him that the things were packed and gone, and he said, "Most cleverly done"—I saw no more of him till the evening, when we met in the railway carriage—Barker and I went to the Euston railway terminus that evening, and took second-class tickets for ourselves, to go to Derby—we got into a second-class carriage—as we were getting in I saw Mr. Newton, Agg, and Hunter in the same carriage—my servant, Phoebe Salmon, had given me provisions to eat as I went down—as we got in and took our seats they all three got out—I had not time to exchange a word with either of them before they got out—a hat and scarf were left in the carriage—Barker and I travelled down to Rugby and saw no more of Hunter and Newton till we got there—I saw Agg at Rugby—he told me to take care of Hunter's hat that was hanging in the carriage—I went on to Derby, taking care of the hat, and arrived there at past 12 o'clock—I went to Mr. Rowbotham's, the George Inn—I did not see Agg or Hunter there when I arrived, no one but Newton—I slept at Rowbotham's that night—I slept in one compartment of the house, and Barker on a sofa in another—there was not room enough in one bed, and there were not two beds to spare—I saw Agg and Hunter coming from the railway station about 1 o'clock that day—Agg told me to stop at the Railway hotel till 5 o'clock and they would be back—I remained at a tavern, at the railway station, till then—Agg and Hunter came a little before 6 o'clock, and another man with them, I do not know who he was—we had something to drink at the bar, and Mr. Hunter asked the publican whether he could let him have a private room; that he wanted to do a little business—this was not at Mr. Rowbotham's house—I remember Agg sparring at the time—he hit me on the hat—he was very tipsy—the landlord let us have a room, which, seemingly, was their own little sitting room—I, Agg, Hunter, and Barker went in there—Hunter called for some drink, and paid for it—while we were in that room, Agg gave me three 100l. notes—he passed them under the table, Hunter making use of the words, "You had better give them to him under the table, and then nobody will see it"—there was a doorway through which any one in the bar could see into the parlour—I cannot say whether there was a door or not, if there was it was open—Barker was out of the room when that happened—he left the room just as the sherry was called for—I held one of the notes up to the window, and Agg and Hunter both said, "You have got more now than what the value of the silk is;" because I had asked them for 45l. more, which was the remainder of the money—we had another pint of sherry to drink, which Hunter called for—after leaving the house I gave Hunter his hat; he put a white wide-awake, which he had on, into it, and put it on his head—I had intended to go back to town by the evening train, but I missed the train by going to the urine place, and it started without me—we had got our tickets—I turned round to look for Agg and Hunter on the platform, but could not see them, and Barker and I went back to Rowbotham's and had some ale and pork-pies—while we were there I produced one
of the notes to Mr. Rowbotham, upon which he put some questions to me, and after that I and Barker were taken in custody by the police, at the railway—I have been in custody ever since—at the Railway hotel, Hunter said he had tried to get the notes smaller, but could not—on the evening of the 15th, before I had purchased the silk, Gillett said he should have to pay 10l. to the man who the van belonged to, where the silk was put—that was before I had been taken to see the silk; it was when he came to my house—the cab stopped at the place where the things were in the stable, I had told the police what sort of a place it was—I was taken in a cab to the Thames police-court—I was taken down Princes-street, and we drove past the house where I had been to see the silk—I did not get out at the house at all—we drove past in a cab—it was pointed out by somebody and I said that that was the house—I had described the place to them before they pointed it out to me at all.
Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. Where was it that you paid the 9l. to the prisoner Turnbull? A. At the Prince of Wales public-house—I gave him nine sovereigns—the other man who is not in custody, was present—it was not to him that I paid them—Gillett was also present; nobody else that I am aware of—I paid the 50l. to the man not in custody, at a public house in the same street—the others were not present—I paid it to him because he was the person I had to pay it over to—I did not pay the larger sum to him, because he was carrying out the principal part of the business—I had several interviews with him which the others were not present at—he did not ask me to give the 50l. to him, nor did anybody—if Turnbull had come instead of the other I should have paid it to him—the barmaid saw me in the Victory public-house, and the pot chap.
Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. You were convicted, were you not, about the 15th of June? A. I think you will find it was the 10th, I know it is seven months to day—three or four days after I got into gaol a communication was made to me—Mr. Mumford and Mr. Humphreys called on me—they are the only two—Mr. Mumford is the superintendent of police—they came to ask whether I could not give them some information—I was not to get anything at all, that I am aware of—I have no other motive than the public good—I have not got off the hard labour, no one there is let off that—I have had hard labour, except a month that I was in the doctor's hands—I was innocent of knowing the silk to be stolen—it is best known to the jury and Judge whether I was convicted improperly—I did not know it was stolen till I was at Derby—I do not know what I have been convicted of—I have not had time to think—I go to bed early, but I am tired, and want to get to sleep—I mean to tell the jury that I do not know what I am convicted of—I can form no idea.
COURT. Q. Do you mean that you do not know what you were convicted of or for? A. I do not know what I was convicted of; stealing or receiving.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. But whether of stealing or receiving are you equally innocent? A. I did not know they were stolen till the policeman at Derby came and told me so; but I had a doubt they were stolen; by the places I had to go to, to purchase them; and that is the reason I did not purchase them when I saw them in the van—I had no time to make inquiries—I had known Gillet before, and had transactions with him—I did not know Agg before, but my good lady had bought silk of him—I knew him to be a seller of silk for his uncle, Mr. Drakeford—after my trial, I made a statement—I said, "Oh! my God, I am innocent"—I do not remember
ending by saying, "So help me God"—I will not swear I did not—I made a long statement—I had never dealt with Agg before—I never said that I had dealings with him—he did not come to my house on 14th March and say that he wanted to borrow 300l., and would give me 20l. for lending it to him—I did say so after my conviction—it was a lie that Agg came to me on the 14th and said that he wanted to borrow 300l., but when I bought the silk I was lending money to Agg—it is a lie that he called to borrow 300l.
Q. Did not you call on God to witness it? A. I said, "By God, I am innocent"—I said, "I know Mr. Agg, and have dealt with him before, he came to my house and wanted to borrow 300l."—that is a lie—I told it because I was like other thieves and wanted to get out of it—it was you that said I was a thief—I made that statement to get home to my wife and children, but I did not call my God to witness it—I am telling the truth now because truth goes furthest—my servant is Phoebe Salmon—she was not present at the last trial—I do not believe she was called—Mr. Angell is my attorney—I did not send Phoebe Salmon to my attorney—she called on me in gaol to bring me some food before my trial, but I did not on that occasion send her to Mr. Angell—I positively swear I did not—she is here to-day—I did not ask her if she would be willing to swear something to save my life, or if she would be a witness—I did not ask her whether she remembered Agg coming on the 14th—I asked her whether she remembered Agg coming on the Sunday—I do not remember what she said—I did not send her to Mr. Angell after that—I have never been in any trouble before; only once, when the property was proved to be my own, and I bought it of Mr. Durance, and proved it—I know the value of thrown silk, but not of raw silk—I should not know whether raw silk was the best or the commonest, but I should if it was thrown silk—Mr. Newton did not go down in the same carriage with me to Derby, because he got out of the carriage as I got in—he was not in the same compartment—I heard it sworn at the last trial that he was.
Cross-examined by MR. KEMP. Q. On the second occasion that you saw Gillett he produced a key; where was that? A. In my shop—my wife was present, and I believe my sister must have been in the shop—the shop and the little parlour join together—my wife is not here that I am aware of—Phoebe Salmon has been my servant over twelve months.
PHOEBE SALMON . Up to early in November I lived with Mrs. Debock, at 4, Slater-street, Bethnal-green, as servant—I lived with her about eighteen months altogether—I know Gillett—early in last year a gentleman came to the house, but who it was I do not know—I cannot say that it was Gillett, because I did not see the gentleman the first thing in the morning, but I remember his coming again—that was, I think, early in March—I saw Gillett have some conversation with my mistress—I saw him again some two days afterwards—he asked Mrs. Debock for some money—I remember a transaction about a key—Gillett said to Mr. Debock, "I have got the key, Mr. Debock," and I saw it in Gillett's hand—he held it up—I was sitting in the little room leading to the shop—he afterwards left, and Debock left a few minutes after him—about two days afterwards another person came; not one of the prisoners—it is a long while ago to recollect, but I think one time they came by themselves, and three times afterwards—Gillett is one, and the one with the scarf is the other—they had a conversation with Mrs. Debock—I recollect fetching some gin—I do not know the date—Edwin Turnbull was there then, and the man who is not here, whom I have been speaking
of before—Edwin Turnbull gave me a shilling to pay for the gin—on a Thursday or Friday morning, a few days after that, Mrs. Debock called me up at 6 or half-past; that was earlier than usual—I had not heard any knocking—when I got up, my master was out—he came home to breakfast about 8 o'clock, and I think he went out again before dinner—a chaise drew up to the door, but whether it was Mr. Hunter in it or who it was, I do not know—I do not think I saw Hunter that day, but he came on Sunday about two days afterwards, in a chaise with Mr. Agg—Mr. Agg went up stairs I suppose to Mr. Debock, and Mr. Debock and Agg went out together—they were up stairs five or ten minutes—I think they went into the chaise, but I will not be positive—I heard the chaise drive away—I remember one day a boy coming with a message—in consequence of that, I called my master down, who spoke to the boy, and then I think went out—that was before the Sunday I have mentioned; it was in the morning—on the Saturday before the Sunday, a man not here, came, and my master went out with him—it was in the same month as my master went to Derby—I knew Hunter before; I have been to his house—I remember a message being sent round to Barker—that was the next day, Monday—Barker's is in the next street to Debock's—Barker came round after that message, and he and Debock went out together—I heard from them that they were going to Derby—I got them some brandy, and loveage, and some ham—my master did not come back—either the next day Tuesday, or on the Wednesday, Edwin Turnbull and two other men came—I will not say whether the others were either of the prisoners—they swore very much at Mrs. Debock and said, "You have got the money"—Mrs. Debock said, "I have not, for Mr. Debock has gone and left me without a farthing—I saw Gillett there after my master left—he came for the money—I heard him ask Mrs. Debock for it—that was on Wednesday.
Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Are you still in the service of Mrs. Debock? A. No, I am living at home with my mother—I have left Mrs. Debock about two months—I have not seen her here to-day—I recollect the last trial; I was there with Mr. Debock—I was not here on the day of the trial—I came on the Monday when I thought it would come off—I did not know Mr. Debock's attorney before the trial—I only knew who he was, by being servant there—I do not know that he had an attorney to conduct his defence—I know Mr. Robinson, who used to collect Mr. Debock's rents—I went to him before the last trial—I was taking Mr. Debock his dinner to the gaol one day, and he said to me, "Phoebe, will you tell what you say, to a solicitor?" and he told me the words to say, and Mr. Robinson and Mrs. Debock took me to the solicitor, and I told him. Mr. HAWKINS objected that what the witness told the solicitor could not be evidence. MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE contended that he had a right to put the questions to test the witness's credit. THE COURT considered that the questions had better be put, and then any objection could be taken to them.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. You did go to Mr. Robinson's, did you not? A. Yes; Mrs. Debock took me to a gentleman named Angell, and Mr. Robinson as well, but Mr. Robinson came afterwards—I then made a statement to Mr. Angell—Mr. Debock had told me to tell Mr. Angell that Agg asked him to lend him some money, and that Mr. Debock lent it to Agg in a small leather bag, and that I saw it done, and I stated to Mr. Angell that I brought the money from up stairs in a small leather bag to Agg—I had not done anything of the kind, but I was in such a very bad place, that I did not know what to do—he said that it would clear him, and
I did not know what I was really doing of—Mr. Debock said that it would clear him—he wanted me to take a false oath, and I went to Mr. Angell and said that I was ready to swear to what Debock had told me to do.
Cross-examined by MR. LLOYD. Q. Have you always been at certain about Edwin Turnbull as you are now? A. Yes; I am sure he is the man—I pointed to the man with the scarf, but I took him for the wrong one.
Cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH. Q. How long have you been out of place? A. About two months—I left Debock's about two months ago; I cannot tell you the day of the month—I had lived then about eighteen months—since this matter occurred, I have known a woman named Roberts—I did not tell her that I would swear any mortal thing on earth I was asked to do to save Mr. Debock—I know Mrs. Roberts, and I mean to say that I did not way it in those words—I am not angry—I had no conversation with Mrs. Roberts about Mr. Debock—I can take my oath I had not; not about this business, only about the business Mr. Debock used to send me about; about telling Mr. Roberts to come down—I did not tell her anything I could do for Debock; I told Mrs. Debock that I would, but as for Mrs. Roberts, I did not—I told Mrs. Debock I would say anything which would clear my master.
Q. It mattered not what it was you were told to say, so that it would help your master, you would swear it? A. No; I did not know the harm I was doing—when I was asked, I said that I would say it, but I did not know whether it was truth or not—I would not say whatever I was told, so that it would help Debock—I would not say a falsehood to clear my master if I knew it—I did not say to Mrs. Roberts that I would say anything to clear my master—when I got home after Mr. Debock had told me in prison about the money and the small leather bag, I said to Mrs. Debock that if it would clear him, I would say it.
MR. HAWKINS. Q. Did Debock tell you that he had paid the money in the leather bag? A. That he had lent the money—I did not believe that to be true, because I did not give the bag, but that is what Debock told me to say—he had not been tried then, and I was still in his service—Mrs. Debock had a good many conversations with me—she took me to the solicitor—Robinson or Roberts used to gather Mr. Debock's rents—I do not know whether he does now, for I do not trouble my head with them—I have not the least to do with Debock now—I was not examined on the last trial—I made a statement to Debock's lawyer—I was not asked to swear to it here—Robinson is a hair-dresser, he lives in Church-street; I do not know the number—I cannot say whether he is in Court—he went with me to Mr. Angell, the solicitor—I left Debock's service, because my mother would not allow me to stop any longer; she compelled me to leave—she has sent letters to me, and Mrs. Debock would not let me go; that was both before and after the time that this matter was going on—I am sure he is the man.
COURT. to PETER DEBOCK. Q. Did you state after the former trial was over that Mr. Angell had raised you 276l.? A. No, I did not—I said he advanced me 50l.
ANN STEELE . I am the wife of Richard James Steele, a surgeon's assistant at Cornwall—in March last I was barmaid at the Victory public-house, in the Kingsland-road—I remember on Thursday, 14th March, Debock coming there by himself between 6 and 7 o'clock in the morning—there were two men there when he came in; they came in a few minutes before him—Debock spoke to them when he came in—I had served them with something before he came in—the three remained there about three
quarters of an hour—I spoke to Debock about coming there so early, and he said he had been for a walk round Victoria Park—Cooper, the potman, was there.
ROBERT COOPER . I am a potman at the Victory, in the Kingsland-road, and was so in March last—I remember Debock coming there on a Thursday morning—there were two men there at the time—it was about 7 o'clock in the morning—Debock appeared to know the other men—they had some brandy to drink—the three stayed some time; I do not know how long—I did not see them leave—I do not know the two other men—I know Debock.
HENRY JACKSON . I am in the service of the Eastern Counties Railway Company, as a detective officer—I remember being, in March last, in the Unicorn public-house, opposite the railway station—I do not recollect on what day it was; it was near the middle of March—I know Hunter kept the Red Deer at Cambridge-heath-road—I know Debock—I saw him and Hunter in the Unicorn at the same time—I did not know Agg personally—there were several other persons at the bar—I did not know the persons of anybody else—Debock and Hunter were standing in front of the bar—I did not take particular notice how they were standing—I merely passed the time of day with Hunter; I said, "How do you do?" or something of that sort—I did not hear any conversation between either of them—I left first—I was not in more than a minute—I had a glass of ale and went out again, leaving them in the house—I did not see them talking together.
Cross-examined by MR. SERGEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Did they appear to be acquainted with each other? A. They might, or might not have been; I cannot say—there might be five or six other persons at the bar; I cannot say—I have known Debock some years—I have been at his house twice, I should say, to search for stolen property.
MR. HAWKINS. Q. You found nothing? A. No; unfortunately it went out at the back way—I did not see it go out—an officer saw it go in, and when I went in it was gone out of the house—I did not see any go into the house at all—I went to search for stolen property, which I did not find—that is all I know.
COURT. Q. Are you quite sure you searched twice, you had been in the house more than once, had you searched more than once? A. I believe it was twice, I am not certain.
ELIZABETH ROSINA GARDNER . I am the wife of Thomas Gardner—in March last I lived at 2, Hope-street, Spitalfields, the house of the prisoner, Barker—I occupied the first-floor front room, for which I paid him 3s. 6d. a week—he kept in his own occupation the two down-stairs parlours, and the back washhouse—I remember a van coming to the door one Friday night, a week before I left the house (I left the following Friday, in March, but cannot tell the day); it was about half-past 9 at night—I was sitting by the window—it was a light van, with one horse, and covered with a tarpaulin—I saw ten bundles of something taken out—I did not know what they were—they were like the bales of silk which I saw afterwards—I cannot say what sort of a covering they had—it was a dark material—the ten bales which were taken out of the van were taken into the front room—there were two men taking them in, but I could not see who they were—both the men were about the height of Debock, but I could not see their faces—at the time the bales were unloaded I heard them say "Quick," that was all—the van drove away when they were unloaded—the men were not dressed like carmen—the bales were in the front parlour—I did not see them in the front room, but I saw they were not anywhere else—the front
room door was shut—on the following Monday I saw one of Pickford's vans come—two men and a boy were with it—I saw the bales taken out of the house and put in the van.
WILLIAM TOOTH . I am a carman, in the service of Pickford and Co.—on Monday, 18th March, Crane spoke to me—from what he said to me I went with my van to No. 2, Hope-street, and there got ten bales, directed to John Newton, Derby—Crane was not there at the time I got there, but he was there about five or ten minutes after—Debock was there, and helped put the bales in my van—one of them gave me a shilling; laid it down on the counter—I took the ten bales to the Camden-town station, and left them there to be sent by the goods train to Derby, so that they would go that night.
THOMAS ANGELL . I am a solicitor, practising in Guildhall-yard—I defended Debock on his trial—I never knew him until 16th March—he came on that day with some deeds, and asked me to make him an advance of money—I did not make him the advance he wanted without investigating the deeds, but I gave him a cheque for 50l. at that time, and on the Monday or Tuesday he was to come about the rest—he never came—I have the cheque; it is debited against me—I have the book.
Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. You retained my friend, Serjeant Parry? A. Yes—I remember Debock's making a statement after his conviction—I do not recollect whether he said that he had obtained 276l. from me—he said I was going to advance 200l.—I do not recollect his saying that he had got 276l. from me—I did not, that I remember, make a remark on it at the time—if any sum was mentioned it was 250l. that he mentioned.
MR. HAWKINS. Q. Was it that you had advanced, or were to? A. I agreed to advance 250l.—that statement was correct—I gave him 50l., and was to advance the other when I had looked at the deeds.
HENRY SMITH . I was porter on the Midland Railway, at Derby, in March last—on 19th March, about half-past 4, I was standing at the bar of the York Hotel, which is opposite the Derby station—I saw four men taking a glass of something to drink at about a quarter to 5, or a quarter past—Barker, Debock, and Hunter, were three of them—I have not seen the fourth since; he was rather a thinner man than Hunter; not so stout, not so broad, and a light complexion—I did not observe whether he had any whiskers—they were together at times, and separate at times—Debock asked me what time the train went to London; I told him at twenty minutes before 7—they said they wanted to go by the express—I understand that they were all going together, the two biggest, Hunter, and the one I have not seen since went out—I sat at the window, and when they got out Debock got up and put his face to the window to look after the others, who had gone—after a time the two who had gone out came back again, and the one I have not seen since, began sparring with Debock—they drank what they had in their glasses, and one of them spoke about a room; I believe it was Debock the one with the moustache—the one I have not seen, I believe spoke to the landlord—only one of them spoke to the landlord, that I am aware of—he asked the landlord if he had a small room, as they had a little private business to do—at the time that was said Hunter was there; they were all close together—they then left the bar, and went round, passed by me, and turned into the small parlour which looks into the bar.
Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Were you here on the last occasion? A. No—I know Bartlett—I remember him starting to come last time—it was Agg, the man with the moustache, who asked for the private
room; the small one asked for it—Debock asked first, and Agg asked as well—I never lost sight of them before they left the bar—they were all together when I went into the place, and they were all together in the small room when I left—I never saw Barker go out while I was there.
MR. HAWKINS. Q. Did you leave while they were in the room together? A. Yes—they went into the little parlour, and then I left, and saw no more of them—I left directly they got into the small room—I saw nothing taken into the room.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Were you present at the bar when any sherry was called for? A. I cannot say what liquor they were drinking—there was no liquor in the little room, and I never saw any go in.
ELLIN CLAPP . In March last I kept the Gold Eagle, Agard-street, Derby—that is seventy or a hundred yards from Newton's mill, which is in Agard-street—I remember one day in March, Newton coming to the house with two other persons—Hunter was one of them, and the other I do not know—he was a light complexioned man—they came between 2 and 3 in the afternoon, and remained about half an hour talking together—I heard Newton invite them to go to his new mill—he had not been there long apparently, and they all three went out together—they were away a quarter of an hour or twenty minutes, when all three returned and remained about a quarter of an hour, I cannot say to a few minutes—Mr. Newton, and the light complexioned man, went out for about half an hour and came back and joined Hunter, who had remained—they talked together and had some refreshment—while Hunter was there he told me that they were two friends of his, publicans in London—I do not remember the exact day of the month, but I heard the day afterwards, that the two men were taken in custody.
Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Is Newton an old resident there? A. Yes; I have known him there a long time—he is a silk throwster and broker—Hunter and I had a gossip together while the others were away. (MR. HAWKINS objected, that this was not evidence; MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE submitted that it was all part of the transaction, and that it went to confirm the statement of the accomplice. THE COURT considered that if the conversation had happened on the next day, it could not have been evidence, but as it happened at the same time it was admissible.)
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Did he tell you that he was a publican in London? A. Yes; he did not say that be had come down with his friend who had business with Mr. Newton; nothing of the kind—he told me nothing about this business; it was mere chit-chat—he told me the name of his house in London, but I have forgotten it.
CHARLES ROWBOTHAM . I keep the George Inn at Derby, two hundred yards from the railway station—I remember the arrival of the mail train on the morning of Tuesday, 19th March—shortly after it's arrival, Debock, Barker, and Mr. Newton came to my house, and several other persons whom I do not know—Barker brought a bundle; I do not know what was in it—they had some conversation with me—they required accommodation for the night—I had one bed and a sofa for them; all the other beds were filled up—Newton did not come in at the same time that Debock and Barker did—he came five minutes afterwards—he came into the same room, just into the doorway—he did not sit down—Debock and Barker were then sitting in the bar—Newton could see one of them, but not the other—he did not recognise either of them, nor they him—Debock and Barker slept at my house that night, one on the sofa and one on the bed, and breakfasted together next morning—the bundle was left there till about 4 o'clock the following
afternoon—I never saw what was in it—I saw Barker once, between breakfast time and the evening of the same day, but not Debock at all—they left the house together in the morning; Barker came back to ask whether there had been two gentlemen inquiring for him—on the evening of that day, about 8 o'clock, Debock and Barker came to the house again together—they had some refreshment, and remained, perhaps, three quarters of an hour—while they were there, Debock produced a 100l. note, and asked me to read it to him, to tell him the amount of it—I saw the note—he took it out of his pocket-book from among some other papers—I cannot tell whether they were notes or not—I read the amount of the note to him—having seen the note I put some questions to him, and received from him replies to them—the result was that I gave information to the police, and Debock and Barker were afterwards apprehended.
Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. What were the questions you put to him? A. He asked me to tell him the amount of the note—I told him it was a 100l. Bank of England note—he said, "Thank you; I am much obliged; I cannot read your notes"—he spoke in broken English, as if he was a foreigner—he wished to make me believe so—he said, "I cannot read your English notes, and should be much obliged to you to tell me the amount of it"—I said, "Have you taken it in a business transaction?"—he said, "Yes; I have"—I said, "Well, you must have known who you have taken it from; taking a note of this amount; have you been doing business in Derby?"—he said, "Yes"—I said, "Then of course you know from whom you have taken this note"—he said, "No; I don't know"—this was all in broken English—I said, "Well, it is very strange, you have got a piece of paper here, and don't know who you received it of"—he said, "No; I misunderstood you; I did not take it in a business transaction; I have given change"—I said "Do you mean to say then you have given your good cash in change for this note, and don't know who you have given it to?"—he said, "No, I do not"
GEORGE HILTON . I am chief constable of the borough of Derby—I went on Wednesday morning, 20th March last, to Newton's mill, in consequence of a communication I received, and there saw a quantity of silk; one bale of skeins, and the other bales were loose; they had been unpacked—the bale of skeins was not unpacked—I afterwards caused them to be removed to the Town-hall, and afterwards that silk was given up to Mumford, superintendent of the police of St. Katharine's Docks—on Thursday, 21st March, I came to London in company with Inspector Fearn—we arrived in town sometime between 4 and 5 o'clock—we first went to the Clown public-house in search of a person of the name of Agg—we were told that he was not at home—we then went to the houses of Barker and Debock, and then went back to Agg's and then he was out—we then went to Hunter's house in Cambridge-heath-road—I heard he was in the parlour opposite the bar, and I sent for him out—he came out into the bar to us—I said, "Is this Mr. Hunter?"—he said, "Yes"—I told him I should like to speak to him in private—he asked me to go up into a room which led up four or five steps into a private room above the bar—I said, "Have you been to Derby this week?"—after a minute's hesitation he said, "Yes, I have"—I said, "You went down with a person named Mr. Agg, and old Mr. Newton, on Monday night"—he said, "Yes, I did, we all went down together; old Newton got drunk and lost his portmanteau at Rugby"—I then called Inspector Fearn up into the room—I had left him down in the bar—I said, "Now, Mr. Hunter, you
have been candid with me in saying you have been to Derby, I will be candid with you; we are two police officers from Derby; have you sold any silk to Newton?"—he said, "No, we went to buy silk and not to sell"—I said, "But did you buy any?"—he said, "No, I did not; but I have bought many a lot of him"—I said, "Well, we have come to London to make some inquiries about a large quantity of silk we have found at Newton's mill, which young Mr. Newton says his father bought of you and Agg"—he said, "Good God, what the bell's the matter; I have not sold any, I do not know if Agg did or not"—I then told him we had two men in custody, and that young Newton had said he had paid for the silk by three 100l. notes, and a cheque for 220l. which he had given to Agg; that we wanted to see the cheque; we had been to Agg's house and could not find him—he again said, "Good God, what the hell's to be done?"—I said, "Well, we must see the cheque, that is all"—he said, "Well, I will go and find the b—and make him turn it up; but you must square it"—I then said, "Do you know the two men we have in custody?"—he said, "B—the men, this is the b—y cheque you want; if you'll meet me at his house in an hour, I will find him, (meaning Agg), and bring him there"—Hunter left the house before us in a cab—I had heard nothing at that time of any robbery of silk—I never saw Hunter again from the time he left the house until I saw him in custody at the Police-court; I tried every means I could; I went and watched his house repeatedly, but could never find him—I was at his house the next morning, before 6 o'clock, before it was open, and watched it till it was open—I made inquiries and they said he was not at home—I went back again to Agg's that night, and he was not in then—Agg came home after the lapse of the hour, but not Hunter—I went to the police-station and heard that there was some silk missing, but I did not hear of the actual robbery till I got to the St. Katherine's Docks—I went there and heard of the robbery, and then went back to the houses of both the men, and could not find them.
Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. But you let him go? A. He went away from me—if I had found him I should not have apprehended him that night—I merely was going to ask him why he had not kept his appointment—I had got two men in custody at Derby, and I began to think after a time that I had got two too many—after Hunter first told me that he went down to Mr. Agg's, and that they were silk dealers, and were dealing with Mr. Newton, I began to think perhaps the silk was right—when he began to talk about squaring it, I began to think it was a little awkward—when he began to say, "B—the fellow," and all that, I began to think I should like to see the two together, Agg and Hunter—I did not consult any London officers—if I had gone to any police-station in London, except the Leman-street station, they would not have known anything about it—I am not the gentleman who attended an election committee—I do not know that it was Fearn—before I went to the Police-court I got hold of a person named Mendoza—he is no friend of mine; I have some business transactions with him—he lives in Petticoat-lane—he accompanied me to the house—I have sold him old clothes; the uniforms of the police—they have not got a contract with him; they leave it to me to sell it to whom I think proper—I was up on the last occasion when old Newton was charged—I do not know whether old Newton and the young one are both carrying on business now; the mills have been stopped—there is one in London; I have seen young Newton in London—he is the young man that I said I believed Agg and Hunter had sold the silk to, and he is the man who gave
me the addresses of both of them—I found the addresses perfectly correct—at the time I called on these men I had a couple of men in custody at Derby, and a policeman in charge of the silk—it was Hunter's own suggestion to find Agg; all I wanted at the time was an explanation—old Newton was afterwards indicted here and acquitted—it is not my case—I am simply here as a witness—I did not get up the evidence down at Derby—we examined the witnesses, and as soon as I knew what they had got to say, I sent them to Messrs. Humphrey's and Co.—I did not hear what they had to say—when the inspector told me what they said, I sent them—Fearn is my inspector—Gutteridge was called on the part of the defence, and gave evidence, I believe—I forget whether Fearn and I were both called; I think we were—when I got down to Derby, Mr. Loach, the solicitor, presumed that I was going to send in a complaint against Gutteridge; he sent in several sheets of paper before the complaint was made—he was dismissed for saying that Vessey and I went to his house, and for saying what was not true.
COURT. Q. Was he a policeman? A. No, a porter on the railway—it was for some alleged misstatement on the trial.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Now, I ask you on your oath, have you not said to several people that it was for saying that Newton was not in the same carriage with Debock? A. On my solemn oath I do not remember that he ever did say so—I was ordered out of Court by the jury when he was called in—I say that I was not in Court when Gutteridge gave evidence—I do not remember that part of my complaint, formally made against Gutteridge, was that he had stated that Newton and Debock were in different carriages—the complaint I was called on to explain against Gutteridge was as to what he said against Fearn, me, and Vessey, and seventeen other cases were brought against him, and he was dismissed—I do not think I told the Directors that the charge I made was that he stated that he was in a different carriage—you cannot make me remember what I really don't—I did say go—I mean to tell you I do not know whether it was part of the complaint or not—it might have bean or it might not—I might have forgotten it if it was.
MR. HAWKINS. Q. When was Gutteridge dismissed? Q. I should think something like six weeks after I was applied to—a long letter had been sent in by Mr. Leach, Newton's solicitor, as a sort of explanation given by Gutteridge at this time—Mr. Leach is acting now as solicitor for Hunter—that is the gentleman.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. When you were at Hunter's house, did you have some stout with him before he left? A. I had a glass, which I paid for—Fearn, Hunter, and myself each had a glass.
MR. HAWKINS. Q. What was it led to a complaint being made against Gutteridge? A. I cannot say—it was reported down there that Gutteridge had been to Mr. Leach's house, and saw him—he said that it was Fearn and Vessey who went, and not me; and it turned out at last that he had only heard it said—one of the Directors said to me, "We have had a long letter from Mr. Leach."
Q. Did you stir in the matter first? A. I was sent for to make some explanation with reference to some complaint that had been made—I had nothing to do with getting him dismissed—the Directors had had a long letter from Mr. Leach; I won't be sure, but I think it was five pages—I had nothing at all to do with Gutteridge's dismissal, except that—I never had any business transaction with him at all, or any feeling against him—I never
saw him before in my life—all I said was, I was sorry he was such a stupid fellow as he was; he had got a family, and I was sorry he was dismissed—young Newton was examined for his father here last time—he told me that Mr. Leach brought him here, but Mr. Leach had said he did not care whether he was for the prosecution or defence—he told me that Mr. Leach had telegraphed for him last night at 12 o'clock—I was desirous of getting Hunter and Agg together to see what they said—my future proceedings would have depended on what they said—if I had found them the next morning after they had missed their appointment, I should have taken them.
BENJAMIN FEARN . I am inspector of the borough police at Derby—on Thursday, 21st March, I came up to London with Newton—I had taken Debock in custody on the Tuesday evening previous, a little before 12 o'clock, and Barker also—I found on Debock three 100l. notes—on the Thursday when I came up to town with Hilton, I went to Agg's, the Clown public-house—we then went to Hunter's, the Red Deer—Hilton asked him if his name was Hunter—he said, "Yes"—Hilton said, "I want to have some conversation with you"—they left me and went into an adjoining room—in a few minutes Hilton called me into the room, and said to Hunter, "You have been candid with us, now we will be candid with you; we are two police-officers from Derby, and what we want to know is, have you sold any silk to Newton"—he said, "No, we went down to buy, not to sell"—Hilton said, "Did you buy any"—he said, "No"—Hilton said, "We have found a large quantity of silk at Newton's mill, which I think is not all right, and the old Newton, the father, says he bought it of you and Agg"—Hunter said, "What the h—is the matter, I did not sell any; I do not know whether Agg did or no?"—Hilton said, "He says that you and Agg went to the mill together, and he paid for it in three 100l, notes, and a cheque for 220l.; we have got two men in custody at Derby and the notes, and we want to see the cheque"—we told him that we had been to Agg's house, and could not find him—Hunter said, "I will go and make the beggar turn it up, for he has got it; but if I get you the cheque, you must square it; I will go down to Agg's and will meet you in an hour at his house"—Hilton said, "Do you know the two men we have got in custody at Derby"—he said, "B—he men, its the b—cheque you want, but so help me God you must quare it for us, or it will be the ruin of us"—he went off in a cab, and I did not see him again till he was in custody in November—we waited for him some time, but he did not come—we were not aware at this time of the robbery of the silk at the docks, but we heard of it the next day.
Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. But you had a couple of men in custody at Derby? A. Yes—we had a man in charge of Newton's premises—we lost sight of him because we had arranged to meet him again—we had a glass of porter while the conversation was going on—I think I finished mine after I came out of the room—I mean to represent that young Newton told us that Agg and Hunter had been up to the mill, that was about two hours after we had apprehended the prisoners—I had something to do with the complaint against Gutteridge—they sent for us down to the railway—the authorities or the Chairman had heard that there was something, and they questioned him—it was about Debock riding in the flame carriage, and other things—he did not contradict several things which I said on the last trial—Gutteridge said in his evidence that Mr. Hilton went to his house, but it was Hilton and Vessey—Gutteridge was called to prove that they were in different carriages, but that was not one of the subjects of inquiry by the Directors—there was not a complaint made against
the other two witnesses from the railway company—not against Taylor, in my presence, or to my knowledge, only against Gutteridge.
Q. When you were examined last time, did you say that Hunter had stated that he had gone down with the intention; of going to the Warwick races? A. He did not say with the intention, but I heard him say that when he left Derby he went to the Warwick races—he did not say to me that he had been to the Warwick races, and had been round with Agg, but did not know what business Agg had been transacting—I do not know whether those were the words or not.
Q. But you have remembered every filthy word that you could put into this man's month? A. I have not recollected all that he did say—I think this a matter of some little importance—he said that he had been to the Warwick races, and did not know whether Agg had sold any silk, but he had not—I scarcely think that the words you have put to me were his words—we saw Agg about 10 o'clock at night; he was very independent about it—he said he could summons 1,000l. worth then, if he had a mind—he said he could sell us 1,000l. worth of silk—he was very independent, and would not answer what we asked—he said something like this, that he had sold 1,000l. worth of silk at Derby—he said he had sold many thousand pounds worth.
COURT. Q. Is this right: he said he had sold a thousand pound's worth at Derby? A. Not at Derby.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Did you see Agg and ascertain that he had sold 1,000l. worth? A. He said he had sold many thousand, and would sell us one then—I made a memorandum of this conversation with Hunter as soon as I got back home—I have not got it with me, it is at home—I think you asked me pretty well the same question last time; you complained that I had not brought it—I have been to some hundred trials and never produced my memorandums yet—I have not been asked to produce it—I was asked here, but I did not know that I should be asked again—I looked at it last, last week—I cannot tell you the day—I almost think it was Sunday—I did not put it all down, but some of the most important parts of it—it was written on a piece of a pocket-book, some items, just the dates—there was a little more, but very little—by the important parts I mean the dates—I did look at it on Sunday—I looked at it before I went to the police-court; just the dates—the other parts I recollect—I recollect all those bad words very well; all I wanted to recollect was the dates—the day I apprehended them, and the day we went to the police-court—I was not one of Mr. Frail's gentlemen at the Derby election—I only apprehended his good and safe man, that was a matter of duty—I looked at the memorandum of my conversation with Hunter to find out the date that he was apprehended—I have not a memorandum of the conversation with him—I mean to tell the jury that—not of a conversation but just the dates when Debock and Barker were apprehended, and the day of the week and month that we came up to London and went to Agg's house, and when we went to Leman-street police-station—I have not a memorandum of my conversation with Hunter—what I said was that t had a memorandum of the dates.
COURT. Q. I have got this down, "I made a memorandum of the conversation, some of the important parts, it is not here, I looked at it on Sunday, it contains the dates, it is not a memorandum of the conversation?" A. Yes, that is correct.
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Which is correct; that you did make a memorandum of the conversation, or that you did not? A. I made a memorandum of some of the important parts, not of the conversation—
only a few words—I have been a police-constable twenty years—I am a detective officer, and have had something to do with Frail—I only put down the sign of the house, and what time we went to Aggs', in my memorandum—I put down that he said that he would meet us in an hour—I think that was all—I only put down the tail of the conversation—when I told you that I had made a memorandum of the conversation I meant that I had made a memorandum that he had promised to come back in an hour—I made no further note except the name of his house, and the date—when I said that I looked at two or three important items, I meant the time we apprehended Debock, the time we came up, the name of his house, and the name of Agg's house—I made no memorandum of the conversation more than about meeting us in an hour—that is what I meant at first—I took the memorandum to refresh my memory of the name of the house, the street it was in, and the time we went there—I thought that I might forget the name of his house unless I took the memorandum—I do not swear that; but I thought I would make a memorandum—Mendoza knew the name of the house, and young Newton—it was a memorandum of the name of the house, and not of the conversation.
MR. HAWKINS. Q. Was Mendoza called into the room during the time of the conversation? A. No; I left him in the vaults when I went in, and I found him there—I have not been asked or required to bring my memorandum to-day—I had to do not only with this conversation, but with reference to the apprehension of Debock; and I have a good many dates and places to which, as a police-constable, I have to refer in the course of the year—making a memorandum is a rule that we follow in most cases, just to put down the dates when parties are apprehended, and the name of the street, and the name of the house—no part of the actual conversation was in the memorandum—it mentioned the fact that we were to meet again in an hour—I had nothing to do with the charge against Gutteridge—I was ordered by the Directors to be there—I did nothing more than tell the truth of the facts that had happened—he said that I and Vessey went to his house on the Sunday, and we went to prove that we did not—it had nothing to do with Newton being in the same carriage—there was no witness called about that—I did not know Gutteridge till that time, and had no ill will against him in any shape—it was about 10 o'clock in the evening that I had the conversation with Agg—I believe we went to Agg's the first time before 8; and then we went again a second time, according to appointment, to meet Hunter—we waited, I should think, more than an hour before Agg came in—something like an hour—he was not sober—I did not speak to him, but Hilton did—I did not hear any appointment with Agg, to see him again—I went to his house again next morning—we found he had gone; and I waited with Inspector Holloway till 2 o'clock the morning following watching the house; but he never came near the place—other parties kept a watch on Hunter's house, but saw nothing of him; and I went, next morning, at 6, and they said that he was not at home—Hunter did not tell me the name of a single person with whom he had had transactions—when he went round with Hunter to Warwick races, he said nothing on the subject of what business he had transacted at Derby or Warwick; nor did he mention the name of any person he had seen at Warwick—young Newton told us that Agg and Hunter had gone to the mill—Hilton told that to Hunter in my presence—that was the same young Newton who was here in London; and he gave us the address both of Agg and Hunter.
MILPORD GEORGE LEROUX . I reside at St. Pierre, near Calais, and am a private gentleman—I have knowu Mr. Francis, who keeps an hotel at Calais, ever since he has been in business there—I know the prisoner Hunter—he was first brought to live at my house with me somewhere about 8th April—Mr. Francis had introduced him to me a day or two before that by the name of James—that was in Hunter's presence—he said, "I know these two gentlemen, Mr. James, and Mr. Groves, and they are highly respectable people;" and they came and lodged at my house about three months—I have since heard that the name of the other person who was introduced to me is Agg—I saw him in Calais ten or twelve days ago—I cannot say the exact day—he was at that time residing with Mr. Francis, at the Ship hotel—Mr. James wished to leave me for some cause or another, best known to himself; but as long as he lived with me he conducted himself in the most proper manner—during the whole of the three months he and Agg lived together—I cannot say that James did not leave a day before Agg—that had separate bed-rooms, dined together, and were constant companions—Mr. James went out for a walk occasionally, and was sometimes away for a day or two—I did not find out that Mr. James's name was Hunter, till I saw it in the newspaper.
Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. How did seeing a report in the newspaper let you know it? A. I saw a report in the paper; and a friend of mine, residing close to me, said, calling me by name, "Halloa, have you got any silk to sell?"—I said, "Silk I what do you mean?"—I dif not communicate with the prosecution till I was subpoenaed—they came over and subposnaed me; called at my house—somebody had told them that James, or Agg, or Groves, had been residing at my house, and two officers called and asked if Mr. Groves was there—I think that was last Friday—I had never been before the Magistrate—I have not been examined about this.
JOHN DAWE . I am a bootmaker of 11, Skinner-street, Clerkenwell—I know Frederick Charles Agg, who kept the Clown public-house, in St. John's-street-road—on 13th December I went with Inspectors Halloway and Major, to Calais—we found Frederick Charles Agg living at the Ship hotel, and I pointed him out—he is the same person that kept the Clown.
Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINT. Q. Had you known Agg before he kept the Clown? A. No.
WILLIAM NORRIS . Q. In March last I kept the Crown and Cushion public-house, 73, London-wall—I know Mr. Newton, a silk throwster, of Derby—he was in the habit of using my house, and staying there when he came op to London—he has been in the habit of coming there for nine years—I know Agg and Hunter—they were in the habit of using my house for two or three months before eighteenth March—Hunter is the man at the bar—on Monday, 18th March, Newton was at my house—he had been staying there some eight days before that—during that time Agg and Hunter came there together twice or three times—they saw Newton; during those eight days—a man named Crane came two, three, or four times—on 18th March, Agg, Hunter, and Newton, were together, but they did not leave my house together—Newton left, I think, for the 5 o'clock train, or the mail—I am not sure which it was, but it was an evening train—Agg and Hunter had left about 3 o'clock—on Saturday, the 16th, Agg and Hunter were at my house, and saw Newton—that was as near the same time as possible—I did not see Crane in company with Agg at that time, but I have at other times.
Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. How low had you known Agg? A. The whole time I was there—I knew him at the time he was clerk at Messrs. Drakeford's, the great silk throwsters—I have understood that since he left Drakeford's he has been dealing in silk on his own account—on one occasion a couple of bags were left at my house—I cannot remember whether Newton's name was on them—I know that Crane was a porter in Drakeford's service.
PORTER WILLIAM DUNNAWAY (Policeman, H 129). On Thursday, 14th November, I went with Inspector Holloway to the house of the prisoner Smith, 21, Princes-street, Mile-end New-town, at from half-past 9 to 10 o'clock at night; the place was shut up; we knocked at the door—Smith had gone to bed, and he came down stain, opened the door, and we went inside—I said that I wanted to ask him a few questions, that he need not answer them unless he liked, as what he said I might have to use against him, as he would be in custody—I do not think I said what for—I then said, "Did you go anywhere about the middle of March last with your van to remove ten bales of silk?"—he said, "No, I did not"—I then said, "Did you lend your Tan to anyone to remove, any?"—he said, "No, I did not"—I said, "Do you know a man of the name of James Gillett, who lives down the next street here"—he said, "Yes, I do"—I said, "Did you lend him your van to remove anything about the middle of March last?"—he paused for a moment, and said, "Well, I did; I have lent him my van, and I have had his cart"—I said, "Do you recollect his bringing it home early one morning about the middle of March last, and do you recollect it standing there all day; and was there anything in it?"—he said, "Wait a minute; let me consider; if I recollect I will tell you the truth"—I said, "Well, Mr. Smith, that is all I wish—if you tell the truth I do not know what they will do, whether they will make you a prisoner or make you a witness"—he then said that he did recollect, and that there were nine or ten large bundles, but what they were he did not know; that Gillett came again that night, and drove the van away—I then took him down to the station, and he was locked up—he is not a milkman; he is a licensed carman—I saw Debock in November, at the Thames police-court—the description of Smith's premises was given to Mumford by Inspector Holloway, in my hearing, in consequence of which I took Debock in a cab down Princes-street—on the way to the house of correction from the Thames police-court we passed Smith's premises, and Debock recognised them.
Cross-examined by MR. BEST. Q. You pointed them out, did not you? A. No—I will swear that they were not pointed out by anybody in the cab except Debock—if Debock has said that the police pointed them out he has told a lie—Smith has been living at those premises about two years—I have been stationed in that neighbourhood, and have known him—he has always been a respectable man—I will not go so far as to say that he gets his living by letting out vans, but he lets out two vans—I have been in the police fifteen years—I do not usually cross-examine prisoners—this is an exceptional case—I was not engaged on the first trial—my assistance was called in about a day or so before I apprehended Smith, though I was engaged in the matter right away through—when I said that I did not know whether they would make him a witness or a prisoner, that was because I had known him some time, and he might have lent his van to Gillett without a guilty knowledge, and if he told the truth he might be made a witness, and not a prisoner—I have no doubt he did tell the truth—he has been on bail.
WILLIAM HOLLOWAY (Police-inspector H). On Thursday, 14th November, I took Gillett in custody about half-past 6 or 7 in the evening, in the Whitechapel-road—I knew him before—he keeps a little broker's shop in Church-street, Mile-end New-town—I said, "Your name is Gillett, I believe"—he said, "Yes, Sir"—I was in plain clothes—I told him I was an inspector of police belonging to the H division, and my name was Hollway; that he must consider himself in custody for receiving ten bales of stolen silk about the middle of March last—he said, "I do not know anything about it"—I said, "You most go with me to the police-station"—when we got into the New-road, a turning out of the Whitechapel-road, I said nothing about a van, but he said, "I never had a van to remove anything with"—I said, "I did not say you had a van, but you were the man that drove the van"—he said, "I do not know anything about it"—I took him to the station—early in April I got this warrant (produced) against Hunter and Agg—it was granted on 3rd April—I endeavoured to execute it—it circulated through the whole of the force, and I circulated bills at every police-station in London, and every public place; very thickly in the neighbourhood where Hunter and Agg lived—on 13th December I was at Calais, with John Daw, who has been examined, and saw a person whom he pointed out as Agg, living at the Ship Hotel.
Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Although we heard yesterday that Hunter was going by the name of James, did you find that he passed into the port of Calais under his real name? A. I do not think so—I have made an affidavit in this matter—I called on the prefect of police at Calais—I should think he holds a much higher position in society than I do—I inspected his books and ascertained that one James Hunter, who I firmly believe to be the prisoner, had been living with Agg at Calais—I also ascertained before that he was living for three months in the name of James—that was at St. Pierre, before he went to Calais—at Calais he was James Hunter for five days.
MR. HAWKINS. Q. You say that he lived under the name of James for three months, was that after this bill (producing one) had been issued? A. Yes; and after the trial in June—it was at the commencement of July—I only know from what I was told what became of him after he lived the five days at Calais, and from inquiries I made.
JAMES PASSMORE MUMFORD . I am superintendent of police in the service of the St Katharine's Dock Company—on 26th March, I went down to Derby in consequence of the robbery of these ten bales of silk, and received the silk from the hands of Mr. Hilton, the chief constable—I brought it up to London, took it to Cutler-street, and delivered it to Mr. Wheatly there in the wrappers.
WILLIAM LEWIS WHEATLEY . I am in the service of St. Katharine's Dock Company—between 12th and 19th March, I received the whole cargo of the Solent except ten bales which were missing—I searched and found that the numbers mentioned by Thomas were the numbers missing—I afterwards received ten bales from Mr. Mumford—I compared them with the rest of the cargo of the Solent, and from my experience and knowledge I believe them to have been part of the same bulk—the value of the ten bales is about 800l.—I also found that what are called the chops and ties had been removed generally—the value I guess would be between 14s. and 15s. a pound—the removal of the chops and ties would considerably injure the value and would also considerably destroy the means of identification—the silk generally comes overland, but not in these wrappers—the average weight of a bale is 100lbs. or 102lbs. of net silk—there was about half a ton.
Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Did you bring away the silk which was seized at Derby, at Mr. Newton's? A. It was seized—I believe he gave up to Mr. Newton an invoice which he had received from Agg—I have seen that invoice—I do not know who has got it. (MR. HAWKINS offered to produce this document if MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE would put it in as part of his case, which MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE declined to do.)
MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Did you obtain an invoice from Newton at the time you took possession of the silk. (MR. HAWKINS contended that this was not a proper question, at the document would speak for itself.)
COURT. Q. Did you get any document at all? A. Yes; I believe it was produced on the last trial—I have not got it now—I do not know where is is.
MR. HAWRINS. Q. Was that document produced on the last trial as evidence against Newton? A. I think it was—I had no knowledge of that document except taking it—I produced it—I first saw it at Newton's mill—young Mr. Newton produced it, who is here now—he is the son of one of the former prisoners—Mr. Leach took a copy of it and handed it to me—that is the same Mr. Newton who was telegraphed for by Mr. Leach—it was a document over which I had no control until it was produced.
COURT. Q. Was young Mr. Newton examined at length on the last trial on the part of his father, and did be produce his books? A. Yes. CHARLES BUCKLAND. I live at 6, Broad-street-buildings—I have known Crane thirteen or fourteen years, the man who was tried here in June—I was in the same employment with him, at Messrs. Drakeford's—I have seen him mark wrappers there—to the best of my belief the marks on these ten wrappers are in Crane's writing—Crane was at Drakeford's when Agg was there.
Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Was Crane acquitted? A. Yes.
JOHN MARK BULL . I am a detective officer of the City police—at the end of February or beginning of March 1861, I went to the Clown public-house to see Agg on a matter of business—during the evening he introduced Hunter—he said "My friend Mr. Hunter, he has been out licensing; he is my partner in business"—during the conversation he said, "My partner and I can get silk to any amount at any wholesale house in the City"—he said over and over again, "We can get silk to any amount"—more passed on other matters, but that was all in relation to the partnership—Hunter took part in the conversation—he said, "My friend Mr. Agg, I am very happy to see Mr. Bull, and anything I can assist him about in his affairs I shall be most happy.
Cross-examined by MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE. Q. Did he know that you were a detective? A. Yes; he had known me many years—whether I would associate with anybody who is not respectable is according to circumstances—I ate, drank, and was merry—I was not before toe Magistrate—I read a report of this in the Times, and communicated with Mr. Rodwell.
MR. GIFFARD. Q. At that time had you heard anything about a robbery of silk? A. No—I was inquiring about another matter—my acquaintances are pretty numerous, having been an officer twenty years.
JOSEPH COOMBER KNIGHT . I was with Bull when he went into the Clown public-house and saw Agg—when Hunter came in Agg introduced him to us as his partner—we were together a considerable time afterwards, and had something to drink together—we were there on other business—we knew nothing about this; while they were speaking of silk—Hunter said, "We can get any amount of silk at most of the respectable houses in the City.
CHARLESS PARKER . I am a labourer at the London Docks—I have known the Red Deer public-house Cambridge-heath-road to be kept by Hunter for ten years—I know Shears very well—I do not know where he lived—I have frequently seen him at the Red Deer—I know that he is now dead.
Hugh Wood, a provision merchant of 141, Minories; James Auld, provision merchant of 4, Hart-street, Mark-lane; and Alexander Robinson, provision merchant of Tower-hill, gave Smith a good character. John Chambers, surgeon of 3, Trafalgar-place east, Hackney-road; Joseph Wilson, chenille manufacturer of 24, Church-row; Thomas York, lath-render of Marks-place, Cambridge-heath; Thomas Watts, farrier of Cambridge-heath; Charles Watson, cabinet-maker of Hertford-road, Kingsland; Thomas Tanner, butcher of 4, Patriot-square; Leonard Owen, brass manufacturer of 121, High-street, Shadwell; James Bowen, licensed victualler of Old-Ford; and Thomas Reynolds, high-constable of the Tower-hamlets, gave Hunter a good character.
TURNBULL and GILLETT, GUILTY * of stealing.—Three Years' Penal Servitude each.
HUNTER— GUILTY of receiving.— Four Years Penal Servitude.
SMITH— NOT GUILTY .
194. BENJAMIN PARKER (50) , was indieted (with JAMES DALES, not in custody,) for unlawfully obtaining goods within three months of his bankruptcy with intent to defraud; upon which MR. SERJEANT BALLANTINE offered no evidence.
NOT GUILTY .
Before Mr. Recorder.
195. JAMES MORRISON (28) , Stealing whilst employed in the public service, 14 pairs of buff hand parts, and 28 pieces of leather, the property of the Queen. Second Count, Stealing 13 pairs of hand parts. Third Count, stealing 3 buff hides; others counts for feloniously receiving the same.
MESSRS. CLERK and POLAND conducted the Prosecution.
WILLIAM JENKINSON . My father is a saddler and harness maker, at 44, London-wall—I am in his employment—on Saturday, 23rd November, the prisoner came to our shop about 5 o'clock, he was in regimentals—he was a perfect stranger to me—he said that he had some buff hand parts for sale, that he had a sample of them in a piece of paper, which he opened, and there were two or three pairs of hand parts in it—I said I never bought but by bulk, not from sample—he said he had the rest at the place where he put up—I said we should close in a few minutes as we were after time then—he said it would not take long to fetch the others round—he said that he was a collar maker at Sheerness, that they were altering the pouches from the
waist-belt to the shoulder-belt, for various battalions; that they had sufficient leather for a certain number, a battalion, I understood him, and that when they had done the number, they were not expected to return any of the leather, and that they schemed the leather so as to save a piece for themselves—he then left to fetch the others—he returned in three or four minutes with 14 pairs of these hand parts—I looked at them—he asked 16s. for the lot—I gave him 15s.—he gave me a receipt, this is it—he wrote it in my presence, I asked him for it—this is one of the hand parts, it is part of the driving-rein which they hold in the hand (Receipt read."Received of Mr. Jenkinson, the sum of 15s. for 14 pairs of hand reins, buff, James Sharp, Sheerness")—on the 26th he came to the shop again, and brought 13 pairs of the same sort, but one eighth wider; these are seven-eights—I gave him 16s. 6d. for them—he did not give me a receipt on that occasion—on the 29th, he came again—I had in the mean time communicated with my father, and an officer was sent for, and the prisoner was given into custody—I produce all the property I bought, it is exactly in the same state as I bought it
Prisoner. Q. When I sold you the first lot, did you say you would take more if I brought them? A. In purchasing the first lot I said they were seven-eights, not so saleable as the inch, and you said you might have some inch in a few days—I did not say on the second occasion that I would take some more; I said I had sufficient; I said I had a friend in the country who had written to know if we could get him some buff shapes.
WILLIAM JENKINSON . I am a saddler, at 44, London-wall—my son made a communication to me—I told him he had acted indiscreetly in this matter—I made arrangements with the police, and on the prisoner coming to the shop on the evening of the 29th November he was given into custody.
JOHN MARK BULL . I am a detective officer of the City-police—prior to the 29th November, I received some information from Mr. Jenkinson—on the evening of the 29th, I was called to his shop and found the prisoner there—Mr. Jenkinson, jun. shortly afterwards came in—there was a large bundle containing three hides lying within a yard of the prisoner; it was not open, it was done up in an apron—I said to the prisoner, "You have brought that parcel in here"—he said, "No, I have not"—one of Mr. Jenkinson's men said, "Yes, you have"—he then said, "Well, I have brought it in"—I told him we were two police officers (Baker was with me), and asked how he accounted for the possession of that parcel—he said he had bought it—I said, "Who did you buy it of?"—he said, "I bought it"—I said, "Where do you come from"—he said, "From Sheerness"—I asked him when did he buy it, who did he buy it of; and what did he give for it?—he said, he bought it—that was all the answer he gave then—I then took him to the station—lie there said that Sergeant Morris had given it to him—he said that he belonged to the Artillery at Woolwich, and he worked in the harness room, that it belonged to Sergeant Morris, and he had given it to him to dispose of—he was anxious to write to Sergeant Morris, and in my prestence he wrote this letter—I had told him I was going to Woolwich—he said, "You had better see Morris"—I said "I shall see the adjutant"—this is the letter he wrote in my presence—(Read:"Mr. Morris—Three of the buff hides that belong to you I have offered to Mr. Jenkinson for sale; I am now in custody for doing so; see to this immediately—obediently yours, James Morrison")—I afterwards received from Mr. Jenkinson, sen. in the prisoner's presence at the station, 27 hand parts—I asked the prisoner how
he accounted for the possession of them—he said they came from the same source—next morning I went to Woolwich and found this bag bearing the prisoner's name, in a room at the barracks where he slept—it contained two or three pieces of leather similiar to these—it is the same description of leather as the hand parts are cut from—I likewise received this letter from the quarter-master.
Prisoner. Q. When you saw that parcel in Mr. Jenkinson's shop, was it a square tightly tied up parcel? A. Very tightly tied up, as if a soldier had packed it—you willingly gave your name and all particulars at the station—I will not be positive whether you stated to the Magistrate, next morning, that the statement respecting Sergeant Morris was untrue; hi name was mentioned; you mentioned something to that effect—I am aware that you have been in business, but you have not given your correct name.
JOHN MORRIS . I am staff-sergeant in the Royal Artillery, and am in charge of the collar-makers—the prisoner worked under me—I remember 29th November—I was ill at that time—I gave up the key of the stores to the prisoner on the 29th, and he returned it to me about 5 o'clock in the afternoon—he had it most of the day—I believe he bad it in his possession several times on other occasions—I have seen the hand parts and the three hides produced—they were locked up in my stores, and I had the key—I never gave him authority at any time to sell any of these hand parts or buff hides; I could not—until the prisoner was taken into custody I never knew of his having taken any to these things from the store; I had no suspicion—I examined the stores the day after I heard of this, and missed several hides out of the store—the three buff hides do not belong to me—I received this letter of 9th December, at Woolwich—I could not swear it to be the prisoner's writing.
Prisoner. I admit the letter—(Read: "Gaol of Newgate, 9th December, 1861. Mr. Morris,—Sir,—I am now remanded for your evidence, if you are not in a fit state to come to London on Saturday to give evidence, you can sign a declaration to that effect; that you know nothing of this transaction, by doing so my case would then be settled. I say to you honestly that I did not steal the buff, but more of this when I can converse with you on the subject. I hope you are improving in health. Your obedient servant, JAMES MORRISON.")
Witness. I handed that letter to the quarter-master.
Prisoner. Q. At what time on the 29th did you give me the keys A. I could not swear—I don't suppose I ever gave you the keys before to go the store, but you often brought them to me—I have given the keys to several others besides you—these things must have been taken away during the time I was ill—property that waft safe then has been missing since—I can't speak to any particular hide—there is no Government mark on these—most of the hides have the Government mark, but when I went to the store I saw several without it—they should all bear it—I have been in the habit of drawing hides from the stores—I have draws numbers that were not marked—I did not send a man out of the shop for being a bad man while you were employed there—I sent one man away to the Royal Arsenal—that man also received the keys to go to the store—I never bad the buff in hand parts in my store—I had them in hides—I cannot swear that these were ever in my store—I can only say they are similar in material to what I had—I was ill for nearly three months—there was work going on in the shop during that time—the goods that were used during that three months were got out of my store—I knew pretty well the work that was performed
while I was laid up—a corporal was in charge in my stead—he was not always there.
COURT. Q. How do you know that any were missing? A. By the quantity that was used in the shop during the time—I have ascertained that since.
MR. CLERK. Q. Is there an account kept in the shop of the quantity cut up for use. A. Not for the short time I was laid up—very few belts were done during that time—this material is served out for altering belts and I know the quantity that was used for that purpose—hand parts are not cut at our work-shop—they can be cut out of the hides—it was no part of the prisoner's business in the collar room to out hand parts—I gave him the key on 29th November—I believe he has brought me the key from other men several times.
Prisoner. Q. From your experience and knowledge of the material in question, will you swear that it is leather at all. A. It is leather—I have looked at it and tested it
MR. CLERK. Q. I believe there is a composition made to look very like leather. A. I believe there is; but this is leather.
CHARLES BAKER . I am a detective officer of the City of London—on 30th November I took the prisoner from Moor-lane station to the Guildhall police-court—on the way there he said that it was a bad job—I said, "It is, how came the guard to pass a parcel like that—he said, "Oh, he passed it as dirty linen."
Prisoner. Q. Was not this what I said, that parcels were passed as dirty linen." A. No; you said that was passed as dirty linen—I did not say to you, "I see you hare been the dupe of others"—I swear that—I did not say, "If the prosecution is too severe upon you, if I were you I would split who gave them to me."
Prisoner. Q. I think you have stated that from the time I left the barracks, I should not have had time to get to London by the time I was apprehended? A. said if you left Woolwich at half-past 5, you would not be enabled to be in the part of town where you were selling this at half-past six—a person named Weaver, who was examined before the Magistrate, stated that he saw you in Woolwich at half-past 5—Weaver is not here; he is ill.
COURT. Q. What time would it take to come from Woolwich to Mr. Jenkinson's. A. He could not have left till the 6 o'clock train; if he came by the half-past 5 train he could do it—it would take him about ten minutes to get from the barracks to the station—if he left the barracks at 20 minutes past 5 he would have been in time—at one of the barrack gates the sentry is withdrawn at dusk—there is no particular gate through which persons pass with dirty linen.
(The deposition of Weaver was read at the prisoner's request; it stated that he saw the prisoner at Woolwich about half-past five.)
Prisoner's Defence. There are three things to be considered in this case; first, whether according to the evidence there have been any goods stolen, and if so, let us see whether the goods in question are the goods that have been stolen, and then let us see whether I stole them. Now, so far as the evidence goes, that there have been goods stolen, it only amounts to this, that Mr. Morris takes ill something like seven or eight weeks previous to my apprehension, and when he comes back to the shop he finds his goods diminished; and a very likely thing too; there were a great many men at
work there, and a great quantity of material used, and it is very likely that the goods may bare been out up in our trade. So much for goods being stolen. Then as to the identifying of the goods. It is all very well telling business men that goods are had out of the stores not marked; we all know it is not so; even our gloves, boots, and everything we get, and the tools we use, are marked with the Government stamp; it is only a trick that is tried to be played upon you, to say that there are goods in the store marked and not marked; but it so happens that the goods in question were given out of Mr. Morris's private store. Then as for my stealing them. The only evidence laid before you that I stole the goods, is that I was entrusted with the key from dinner time till evening; if Corporal Weaver had been here he would have told you that he was at work with me, and also another sergeant, and that I did not go to the stores the whole afternoon, and that I left without any parcel, and that I could not have taken or handled the goods without their knowing it; but the witness, very unfairly, is kept back, purposely, no doubt, that you may not see the rights of the case; I leave it to you, gentlemen, to say whether I did steal the goods, or whether they are the property of Her Majesty. I have great doubts whether they are leather at all; if not, the indictment must fail. I trust you will show by your verdict that the humblest, as well as the noblest in the land, can have justice at your hands, and that you will not send a man to prison solely upon doubts and suspicions, without the least foundation, and without being supported by evidence.
GUILTY .— Confined Six Months.
The quarter-master stated that the prisoner had only been in the artillery since August last, and that during that time he had conducted himself creditably
PLEADED GUILTY .— Confined Twelve Months.
PLEADED GUILTY .
MR. LANGFORD conducted the Prosecution.
WILLIAM JOHN TRAFFORD . I am in the service of Messrs. Hennekey, wine-merchants, of High Holborn—on 9th December last, the prisoner came to our place of business, about half-past 5 in the evening—he brought a cheque for 20l., offering to pay 11l, 9s. 6d. on behalf of the mess of the military train, and asked for the difference, as he had to pay another account—I had not known him before, but I am positive he is the man—(Cheque read: "Camp, Woolwich, December 6th, 1861. Gentlemen,—Please pay self or bearer 20l.; C. J. Johns, Brevet-major, Military Train; upon Sir John Kirtland, 17, Whitehall-place")—I told the prisoner that I had heard he had left the military train, and I refused to hand him over the difference—I promised to send the balance to Captain Fletcher the following day—he said that he wanted a holiday for a few days, and as they refused to give him one he had taken it, but that he was back again now.
Prisoner. The cheque is not mine; I am positive I brought no cheque there at all; the only cheque I had was the one for 4l., which I have owned to. Witness. I am sure that is the cheque he brought to me.
CAPTAIN THOMAS HAMNER FLETCHER . I am a captain in the Military Train, at Woolwich—the prisoner was a sergeant in the Train, and acted as messman—he was messman on 8th December last—I know Brevet-major Johns—I know his handwriting—this cheques is not his handwriting—I have frequently seen his cheque and letters, and I can swear that is not his handwriting—he is now in Canada—he left about the 15th—I had heard of this cheques before, and mentioned it to Major Johns.
JOHN SERGEANT. I am a sergeant of police attached to the War department at Woolwich—on 25th last month I apprehended the prisoner—I told him it was on account of the cheque for 20l., purporting to be drawn on Sir John Kirtland and signed by Major Johns, which had been presented at Hennekey's—he said he had never received a farthing on account of that cheque, but he did not deny presenting it.
THE COURT considered that in the absence of Major Johns, there was no proof that he had not authorised the prisoner to sign his name.
NOT GUILTY .
Upon the indictment to which the prisoner pleaded guilty he was sentenced to Twelve Months imprisonment. Captain Fletcher stated that the prisoner had been nineteen years in the service and thirteen years a sergeant; that he had borne a very good character, but had lately deserted his wife and family, and was a deserter at the present time.
Before Mr. Common Serjeant.
MR. GENT conducted the Prosecution.
MAUD ANNIE VINTEN . I live with my father, at 4, Churh-street, Greenwich—the prisoner is my mother—she does not live with us—on Thursday evening, 28th November, I had been out for an errand, about a quarter past 6 o'clock, and was returning home; I felt some wet come on my neck and face—I did not look round—it came again, on my face and head—I had on a wide hat which came sloping down—I did not look round the second time—it came again—I did not look round then—it came a fourth time, and I looked round and saw my mother close behind—I only looked round the last time—that was the first time I saw her—I said, "Don't"—she was then close behind me—I went into the road—she walked down the street—nobody else was near enough to have thrown that on me—there were some boys on my right, and I received the wet on the left side of my face—it was in the middle of the road that it was done, in the middle of Clarence-street, and I went into Church-street afterwards—there was no one near when the wet was thrown on my face, but the boys, and they were seven yards away from me—there was the "Spanish Galleon" public-house on one side, and the light from there and the baker's shop both shone on me—that was the last time, when I looked round—my face burnt after the wetting—my shawl and pinafore were burnt, and also a hair-net which I was wearing—these (produced) are the things I had on—I have looked at them since—there are marks on them of something.
Cross-examined by MR. SLEIGH. Q. Do you know that place well? A. Yes—I have not measured the distance to where the boys were—seven yards is what I guess it to be—the boys were not in the road—they were all together—I do not know how many there were—there was a girl dancing the "Cure" and the boys were singing—I did not stop to see that—they were before me—I passed by them when the wet came on me—the boys were all standing still—it was a fine night, but it was mizzling with rain—
there was a little boy with me and I thought it was he who threw it, but he had gone the other way—he was a friend of mine—I have never said before that I addressed my mother upon feeling the wet, and said to her, "Don't"—this if the first time I have ever said it—I have said before that it was done two, three, and four times—I am eleven years of age—(The witness' deposition being read stated, "I felt something wet come over my face; I looked behind me and saw my mother close to me; I thought it was water.")
COURT. Q. You say it did come four separate times. A. Yes.
MR. GENT. Q. Do you remember giving your evidence before the Magistrate? A. Yes—when I looked round the little boy was gone—my father took me to a chemist's afterwards.
JOHN BICKNELL (Policeman, R 55). I apprehended the prisoner at 13, Bridge-street, Greenwich, on 3rd December—the father of the child came for a Magistrate's warrant on the Friday, and I received it on Saturday, 13th November—I did not execute it till the following Tuesday, the 3d—I told her she was charged with throwing vitriol over her child—she said she did not do it—I received these clothes on the morning of the 4th, when she was before the Magistrate, after she was apprehended—they were in the same state as now; burnt and spotted with holes—there is a hole in the shawl, and also in the pinafore—they were produced before the Magistrate.
Cross-examined. Q. You do not remember, I dare say, exactly what she said at that moment? A. She said there were some boys squirting water in the street and some came over her cloak; before that she said, "I did not do it"—she did not say anything further—the father did not go with me to apprehend her—I saw him before the warrant was executed.
JOHN LOWE . I live at 2, Clarence-street, Greenwich—on the evening of 28th November, the little girl was brought to my shop by the father—it appeared to me that the acid had been thrown over this shawl which she wore—she had been crying—I saw a mark of the acid on the left-cheek; a redness—I placed my finger on the spots on the shawl and found that it was a corrosive acid, because it burnt my tongue and lips—I applied no other test—I did not smell it—in my judgment, the corrosive substance wat diluted sulphuric acid, which is vitriol—I have not seen the pinafore, (looking at it) it is all caused by the acid in my opinion—the injuries to her face were not at all severe—it was about twenty minutes past 6 when she came.
Cross-examined. Q. When you had examined the articles of dress they were quite dry, I suppose? A. They were wet—I examined them at twenty minutes past 6 on the evening it happened—she was brought to me directly—I did not retain the things more than five minutes—I sufficiently ascertained that it was an acid—it was evidently a weak acid; if it had been stronger, it would have burnt the things altogether—being weak, it has not destroyed the texture.
NOT GUILTY .
MR. ROWDEN conducted the Prosecution.
DUNCAN JENKINS . I keep the Mansion House public-house, Lower-road, Deptford—in the latter part of the first week in December, between 2 and 3 o'clock, the prisoner came; it might have been 6th December—he asked for a glass of ale—I served him—he tendered a shilling, and I gave him the change—in consequence of some suspicions I had about the shilling I put it by itself in the till, where there were some sixpences, but no shillings—immediately he left, I looked at the shilling, and found it bad on a
closer inspection—I ran to the door to see if I could see him, but I could not—I kept the shilling by itself, on a shelf in the bar—on Tuesday, 24th December, the prisoner came again, and asked for a glass of ale—I recognised him immediately—I gave him a glass of sixpenny ale, and he offered a counterfeit shilling—I looked at it, immediately saw it was bad, and sent my potman for a police constable—I told the prisoner I intended giving him in charge for passing bad money—he asked me if the shilling was bad that he gave me—I said that it was—he said he was not aware of it—I told him that he had given me one about a fortnight or three weeks before—he denied it—he said he would bring an action against me for false imprisonment—the constable then came and he was given into custody—I gave the constable the two shillings—I had not marked either, but I then marked the first one.
Cross-examined by MR. KEMP. Q. Does all the money that is passed over your counter go into the till? A. Yes; I have a tolerably good business—on the first occasion there was about 1s. 6d. in silver, and a shilling or two in coppers—that was not all that I had taken in the day—I have got two tills—I put the shilling into the till where there was no shilling—there were shillings in the other till—the prisoner was dressed the same on the first occasion as on the second, I did not particularly notice, but something similarly dressed, with gloves on, and all that sort of thing—I said nothing to him about the shilling when I received it from him on the first occasion, because I could scarcely make myself believe that a man of that appearance could have bad money—the shilling had a suspicious look about it, as bad money generally has—it did not look like silver when you looked at it narrowly—there are some good shillings that look a little discoloured—his talkative manner also excited my suspicions—it must have been Friday or Saturday, the latter part of the week—it was about three weeks before the second visit—I had never seen him before—he had never been there before to my knowledge—when I charged him with giving me a bad shilling on the second occasion, he said he knew nothing about it—he seemed indifferent, and laughed about it.
MR. ROWDEN. Q. Are you quite certain he is the man? A. Yes; I never mixed the first shilling with any others.
THOMAS BELCHER (Policeman, R 234). The prisoner was given in custody—I told him he was charged with uttering a counterfeit shilling then—I said nothing else; nothing about the one before—I searched him, and found on him two good sixpences and a penny—the prisoner said, if the shilling was bad he was not aware of it.
Cross-examined. Q. Are they tolerably good imitations? A. No; one seems pretty good, the other is not—they have both been knocked about.
He was further charged with having been convicted, on 3rd March, 1856, in the name William, Harris, feloniously having in his possession two moulds for coining, and sentenced to Four Years' Penal Servitude; to which he
PLEADED GUILTY. **— Five Years' Penal Servitude.
Before Mr. Recorder.
MR. SLEIGH conducted the Prosecution.
JONAS SWEETING . I am a carman, and live at Lillingstone, in Kent; but since I have been in London I have been lodging at 116, York-road, Lambeth—on Thursday evening, about 6 o'clock, I was at the top of Gibson-street, Waterloo-road, and met the prisoner Johnson—he told me that he was a police-sergeant and asked me to go with him—I did so—he said that he was out after a party to take them, pick-pockets, rogues, thieves—he said, "You know what I mean"—he asked me to go and help take them; and I went—when we got to the bottom of the street, he wanted me to go and see if I could see them—he told me not to go away, but to stop there—I said that I would—he said that he would go to the station and see if his men were all right; and then he came back, and we went to a public-house—I do not know where it was—he asked me whether I would have some ale; I said, "No; I will have a pint of half-and-half;" because I thought if I had ale he could shift something into it; but if I had half-and-half I should share as he did—then he wanted to toss; and presently Miller and a man who is not present, came in, and they all three got tossing, and wanted me to toss—I said that I was out of work, and had no money—they wanted me to lay my watch down against one of their notes—I said, "No"—they wanted me to go and pawn it—I said, "No"—the subject of my pawning was discussed between the three of them; and I left with the one who has run away, leaving the prisoners in the public-house—I went with the other one into the Waterloo-road—I stepped back to get a man to get a policeman, and he ran away—I then went across the road, saw a constable, went to the public-house, and just as we went in at the side door the prisoners went out at the front—the constable took Johnson, and I followed the prisoner Miller into a public-house—Johnson had a bag of sovereigns in the public-house—he pulled it out, and said, "This will show you that I am a man of property"—Miller had some notes and sovereigns too.
HENRY MILLER (Policeman, L 108). The prosecutor spoke to me, and I went with him to the Fountain public-house—as we went in at one door the prisoners were going out at another—I took Johnson, and took him to the station—I afterwards took Miller, and then told them both that the charge was trying to defraud the prosecutor of a watch—they said nothing—as I took Johnson to the station, I said that I believed it was for felony; but I could not say, as the prosecutor had gone after the other man—he said, "Nonsense; take three halfpence and get a glass of beer—I have not been in the force long"—while I was conveying Johnson to the station we met several other men at the corner of the London-road, and his hand went towards another man; but whether he received anything I do not know; but one said, "Well, Jack," and another said, "Well, George, what is the matter?"—Johnson said, "Nothing much; I do not know what is the matter"—they then said, "Oh, let him go"—a pair of gloves, two handkerchiefs, and 11 1/2 d. were found on Johnson; but no notes or sovereigns—Miller was searched in my presence, and 5s. 7 1/2 d. in silver and copper, and a watch, and handkerchief were found on him, but no notes or gold.
Cross-examined by MR. GIFFARD. Q. When you said, "You are charged with felony," did not Johnson say, "It is all nonsense; you have a glass of beer, and let me go; take three halfpence and get a glass of ale? A. No—that was a good while afterwards.
evening I was spending in the Elephant and Castle, a person said something to me about two men in a public-house—I followed, and when the prosecutor went in at one door, Johnson and Miller went out at the other—I followed, and saw Miller drop something in a piece of white paper, in the mud, and try to tread on it, but he could not; and I picked it up and took it home to my my grandfather—this is it. (The paper contained a Bank of Elegance 2,000l. note, and three bad sovereigns.
GEORGE CRICK . I attend upon hackney carriages, at Waterloo-road—I have known one of the prisoners a considerable time; and the other nearly two months—I cannot say that I have seen them together more than once during the last two months—I have known Miller have many other companions besides Johnson—I have not seen them many times together—I was examined before the Magistrate, and stated that I saw the companions of Johnson with Miller, and there seems to have been some misunderstanding.
NOT GUILTY .
MR. LLOYD conducted the Prosecution.
CHARLES POWELL . I live at 51, Union-row, Horsemonger-lane, and am a publican, but have retired from the business at present—on 26th December I was at the public-house of a friend at St. Andrew's-road, Newington—the prisoner and another man were there when I returned from the kitchen where I had been—they were using very bad language before the bar—the landlord was not in the way—the landlady called upon them to be quiet—they used worse language, and I walked away into, the parlour—the language was so bad that I went back, and said, "Pay a little respect to the females, the landlord is away"—they said, "If the landlord was here what would he do I" and asked me if I was landlord what I would do—I said, "I should turn you out"—the prisoner rushed at me, and struck me—I laid hold of his collar and shoved him out; and a gentleman pushed the other two out, and then one of the others rushed in and struck me—I went out after him and he went away—I did not pursue him—I said, "I do not mind my hat being broken, I will forego that to keep quiet"—I did not touch him; but as I returned to the house, another one, not the prisoner, rushed at me to stirke me; but I caught his head under my arm, and while I had him so the prisoner, who was in the middle of the road, rushed at me—I did not know he had a knife, because it was dark, it was half-past 6—he dabbed at me twice; but I did not know I was stabbed—he did not hit me hard, because I did not feel the blow—it was not hard enough to bleed my nose—I was within two or three yards of a lamp—I afterwards found blood streaming from the side of my nose, and from a wound under my neck—I went into the kitchen and bathed it; but could not stop it for some time.
Cross-examined by MR. RIBTON. Q. Did you strike him? A. Certainly not; at any time—I went out because they challenged us to fight, and because one rushed in and smashed my hat, and I went out to look for an officer to lock him up—I did not strike one of the party—I had great difficulty in putting them out; there were three of them—I do not know who assisted me, he was a stranger to me—he was in the house and knew the language—I do not know his name—he was not before the Magistrate—we had not great difficulty in putting them out—they were all little ones like the prisoner—it took us half a minute to put them out—I seized the prisoner by the back of the collar, as he rushed to strike me, and put him out—I did not put my knee to him behind; I would not unman myself so—I also
helped to put the other two out—the landlady and her sister were in front of the bar—they are not here—she did not ask me to put them out, but she asked them to leave off their language—they had been drinking there—they had got a pot of stout and porter on the counter—I do not know whether they had finished it—it was three or four minutes after we had this encounter outside that I was wounded—the prisoner struck me, and one of the others hit me and broke my hat, and ran away—he was fined forty shillings before a Magistrate for the assault—I was inside the public-house when he struck me—the third man was remanded for a week and then dismissed.
MR. LLOYD. Q. did the landlady tell them to go out? A. Yes—her husband is a friend of mine.
PETER FRANCIS O'KELLY . I am assistant to Dr. Evan of High-street, Borough—I saw the last witness—off the night of 26th November at Stone's-end police-station—I found two wounds, one on his nose and the other in his throat by the jaw-bone—they were not bleeding then—they were clear cut wounds, apparently inflicted by some sharp instrument—I was shown a knife with blood upon it—tire wound on the nose was about two inches long and about an inch deep, penetrating nearly to the other side of the angle—it went through the cartilaginous part—his nose is an inch wide—I put the probe through it—I saw him at twenty minuses to 8—the wounds were very likely to have been inflicted by the knife I saw.
Cross-examined. Q. Do you swear that that knife did it? A. No: but such a knife would be very likely to produce it—any knife with the same sized blade would produce it.
JAMES STACK (Policeman, N 195). On 26th December, about half-past 7 in the evening, I met the prosecutor in St. Andrew's-road, near William-street, bleeding from the nose—I met the prisoner a little further on—he said, "Here he comes, the man that struck me"—I took the prisoner in custody and asked him what made him do it—he said, "Not"—I searched him at the station and found the knife (produced.)
Cross-examined. Q. Just point out where the blood on the knife was? A. Here; it was a small spot; it was six times as large as the head of a pin—I did not wipe it off or touch it—the knife was closed; I opened it—it was taken from his pocket—I did not interfere with it—I handed it to the acting inspector—he is not here—it had blood on it then—I heard that it was shown to the surgeon.
JAMES BRIGGS . I am a broker living at St. Andrew's-road—on the night of 26th December between 6 and 7 o'clock, I saw the prisoner and two other men kicking up a noise in the middle of the street—there was a lot of people round them, and I went out and tried to get the away, knowing Storey—when I get them down a street, I heard them say that they had given it to Mr. Powell; that they had pricked him—I do not know which it was; it was one of the three—I afterwards went to the William the Fourth public-house, and there saw Mr. Powell, standing before the bar, bleeding.
DAVID HODGKIN . I reside at 1, Charles-place, Union street, Lambeth, and am a carpenter—about half-past 6 on the evening of 26th December, I was about three doors from the William the Fourth public-house—I saw the prisoner outside there, in the road, with a lot of other people—he was jumping about and said he had given it to Mr. Powell, for he had pricked him—I saw two other persons a goodish be it away from him—after the prisoner had said that, they came and persuaded him away, and they all went away together—I went into the public-house and saw Mr. Powell bleeding—we then went after the men, and saw the prisoner coming along—we got a policeman and gave him in charge.
Cross-examined. Q. Were you examined before the Magistrate? A. No, I was in the Court—I first communicated what I have told you to-day to Mr. Powell on the night that I saw him bleeding—I was not called—the witnesses had been desired to leave the Court—I was not in at the time they were ordered out; I came in directly afterwards—Mr. Powell said he had got another witness, and they asked me if I was in the Court at the time, and I said, "Yes, I have been in very nearly all the time"—that is the reason? was not examined—there was a crowd about the public-house door, and the prisoner was among them; he was not above two yards from me—I was standing on the pavement—I dare say there were twenty or thirty persons with him—I never saw Mr. Powell in my life till I saw him bleeding in the public-house—the two men were not in the crowd; they were away from it—I could hear them saying, "Come along"—I did not see where they were before that—I could see them standing on the other side; that was the first time I saw them—I cannot tell whether they may have just left the crowd and gone across—they were not amongst the crowd when the words were used—the prisoner did not use those words before they said, "Come along;" it was after—he repeated it so many times.
MR. LLOYD. Q. Have you any doubt about it being the prisoner who said that he had given it to Mr. Powell, and that he had pricked him? A. No.
The prisoner's statement before the Magistrate was here read as follows: "I deny using any knife, or that any knife was used by me."
The prisoner received a good character. GUILTY .—Recommended to mercy by the Prosecutor and Jury.— Confined Nine Months
MR. LILLEY conducted the Prosecution.
JOHN ANDERSON . On 11th December, and for some time before, I was foreman to Mr. Hodson, baker, in Kennington-park—the prisoner was employed there under me—on 10th December I was putting a batch of bread into the even—the prisoner and another lad, named Thomas Baker, were present—they began giggling and laughing—I asked what they meant by it—they had been going on for some time, and I had spoken several times about it, on other days—I hardly know what answer the prisoner made—he was saucy—I spoke to him a second time, and he got up in a passion—we had a few words in the way of a quarrel, angry words, and I struck the prisoner on the nose—I did not strike him more than once—he did not say anything that I am aware of upon that—his nose bled, and he then went out—I saw him again about half-past 11 the same night—we had a disturbance—Baker neglected to do his work—I said it was all Denton's fault that the disturbance was caused, and I said, "It's no use any of you trying to domineer over me, for if I cannot manage you with my hands, I will manage you with the potato smasher"—we worked on till about half-past 8 next morning—the prisoner then went out after he had done his work—about a quarter to 9 I was engaged in cleaning a tin, and, while doing so, I felt a violent blow on the back part of my thigh; at the same instant I heard a report of fire arms—I felt a sort of numbness in the foot—I turned round and saw the prisoner about three or four yards of—he was running out of the bakehouse—at the time I felt the blow, I heard the prisoner say, "Hit we again"—Mr. Hodson carue in, and I was conveyed to bed—about half an hour afterwards the prisoner was brought to my bedside—I was suffering
with pain—he said to me, "Are you having some tea?"—I said, "Yes"—I heard him say to the policeman, "He hit me fire or six times, and I shot him"—I replied, "You lie; I never hit you but once"—he made no answer to that.
Cross-examined by MR. LEWIS. Q. What kind of an instrument is the potato smasher? A. It is a stick with a head to it, about the size of my fist—it is rather a formidable instrument if you are going to hit a man with it—I told the prisoner and Baker I would manage them with that—that was about half-past 11 o'clock—the prisoner was not in the bakehouse all the time, from then up to half-past 8—he was in bed part of the time—I did not make the observation to him alone; I made it to any of them—I baliere he is 22 years of age.
COURT. Q. You say he went to bed after 11 o'clock, what time did he get up in the morning? A. It might have been 3 or half-past—he was working from that time till 8 o'clock.
WILLIAM EDWARD HODSON . I am a baker in Kennington-park—the prosecutor has been in my employ for about ten years, and the prisoner for about six, on and off—he was away for a short time, and came back to me again, and has been with me for about three years the last time—on the morning of 11th December, about a quarter to 9, I was called downstairs by my servant—in consequence of what she said, I ran to the bakehouse, and there found the prosecutor sitting beside the bread, with one leg up, in a fainting position—I immediately sent for a surgeon—I then went into the shop—I found the prisoner there, and said, "What is this that you have done?"—he said, "He struck me yesterday, and I have shot him to-day"—I said, "I must look you up for this as soon as I can get a policeman"—he said, "There is one at the corner, sir, shall I go and tell him you wish to speak to him "—I said, "No"—I fetched the policeman, and gave him into custody.
JOHN MCCONNELL (Policeman, L 139). I was called by Mr. Hodson to his shop—I found the prisoner standing at the shop door—he said to me, "Don't put your hands on me; don't catch hold of me; I will go quietly with you to the station; I shot the man"—I had previously told him to be careful what he said—he said, "Here is the pistol I shot the man with"—he took it from his pocket—it seemed to have been recently fired—it was fool within; there was an exploded cap on it, as there is now—he said he bought the pistol from a gunmaker, a little lower down; that he had pawned a ring off his finger for 5s. to pay for it; that he had paid 6s. 6d. for it, and he was to have 5s. back, and to pay 1s. for the loan of the pistol—he said he bought a halfpenny worth of powder, a halfpenny worth of caps, and a half-penny worth of shot—I asked him where the man was—he said, "He is in the bakehouse; I will show you where he is"—I went to the bakehouse—he was not there, and the prisoner said, "Well, he is upstairs; I suppose he is in bed"—he said, "Here is where I shot him," showing me the place—he said he had loaded the pistol as far at it would go, up to the muzzle, with shot.
THOMAS CONSTABLE (Police-inspector, L). On 11th December the prisoner was brought to the station and charged with shooting the prosecutor—he said, "Yes, I shot the man, but I had no intention of killing him; I had no such thought in my head."
FRANCIS MARK CANN . I am house surgeon at Guy's Hospital—the prosecutor was brought there on 11th December, about 4 o'clock in the afternoon—I examined him—I found about sixty or seventy shot holes in the posterior part of his left thigh, which was slightly swollen—the space occupied
about six inches in length, and four inches across—there was nothing to be seen except slight bleeding, and the shot holes—the facial of the thigh had turned the shot aside—the wound was not dangerous, unless erysipelas had chanced to set in.
Cross-examined. Q. Has be progressed favourably since? A. Very well, indeed; he is only suffering from lameness now—I thought there must have been a very small charge of powder.
MR. LILLEY. Q. Were any shots extracted? A. No; I should say they remain in the limb—I don't think they have gone deeply—it is impossible to tell whether it may interfere with any of the nerves—one or two shot may have gone deeply, but I think the greater part did not.
JOHN MAHON . I am a gunmaker in Kennington-park—the prisoner came to my shop the evening before the constable came to me—he asked me to lend him a pistol on hire—he said he wanted it to shoot a dog; he said it was old—I agreed to lend him the pistol on his leaving the value—I believe this to be the one I lent him—I supplied him with three drachms of powder, one ounce of No. 5 shot, and six percussion caps—he chose the shot himself.
Cross-examined. Q. I belive you wanted him to have a bullet, did you not? A. Yes; he refused that—there would be between 500 and 600 shot in one ounce of No. 5—if this pistol were loaded up to the muzzle, I should say it would contain about half an ounce of shot; that would be about 300.
COURT. Q. Was it the 10th December that the prisoner came to you? A. Yes; before 8 o'clock, I should say—I cannot recollcet the time exactly.
GUILTY of unlawfully wounding.— Confined Twelve Months
Before Mr. Common Serjeant.
PLEADED GUILTY . **— Three Years' Penal Servitude.
ADJOURNED TO MONDAY, 27th JANUARY, 1862.